# BA to serve Halal only meals !



## Gingerwitch (16 September 2010)

Come on you lot get your letter writing hats on ! - the numpties at BA are considering using a firm that will supply halal only meals - why to stop (the majority now i suppose) of folks complaing - FGS its called British Airways...... 

I am appalled - the halal method of slaughter need residing to the histroy books and the UK should ban it - and if the folks dont like it - well they should have two choices go veggie or sod off!


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## stez1234 (16 September 2010)

KFC are already doing this in quite a few of the restaurants!!!!

I think others will follow suit.

A xxxx


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## 3DE (16 September 2010)

I am disgusted by the method of slaughter - its barbaric. I no longer eat at KFC and will no longer be travelling with BA now...


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## Gingerwitch (16 September 2010)

Did KFC not do a trial and take pork or somthing off one of its burgers..... and the natives protested and also the halal eaters protested as the pray was said over a tannoy and the branch got closed (he he he!)

The more places that go the Halal route the more i think of becoming a veggie - i understand the original reasons for doing the act in this matter - but dont the EU insist that all animals must be stunned prior to slaughter.... except for halal meet or what's the other one cosha?


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## suzysparkle (16 September 2010)

This makes my blood boil!!

However, it's not actually British Airways - though they are such an easy target it's been headlined in the press that it's BA. It's actually Gate Gourmet who supply the meals and the reason for considering it is purely down to cost. Airlines offer Halal meals and they have to be pre-ordered. This costs more money. Gate Gourmet are saying if they made all meals Halal it would save them quite a lot of money. It wouldn't just affect BA, it would affect many Airlines.

Now here's the thing. This would be forcing everyone to eat Halal. If you fly on Emirates for example, all meals are Halal, so you don't get a choice. They don't offer a non Halal meat option - you'd have to order vegetarian. 

Why oh why is this country so weak? Personally I think this slaughter method should be banned in the UK anyway. Let's hope Gate Gourmet do the right thing here and keep with having options rather than forcing British people into eating meat slaughtered to other religious standards. 

A few years ago loads of sheep were nicked. They were found in a big barn being slaughtered for Halal meat.


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## Gingerwitch (16 September 2010)

Its days like this i wish i were FRENCH!!!!! - they would not pussy foot around this lot would they?

FGS if i went to saudi I would not be allowed to wear a mini skirt, drink vodka and have a snog.... "oh i am a christian i would cry - here is my cross..... you are picking on little old me.... i should have my rights!" - off with my head would be the answer and i wish this country would do the ruddy same!  - anyway at this rate we will soon be a minority (we probably already are)... maybe we will get a few rights then!


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## suzysparkle (16 September 2010)

Gingerwitch said:



			Its days like this i wish i were FRENCH!!!!! - they would not pussy foot around this lot would they?

FGS if i went to saudi I would not be allowed to wear a mini skirt, drink vodka and have a snog.... "oh i am a christian i would cry - here is my cross..... you are picking on little old me.... i should have my rights!" - off with my head would be the answer and i wish this country would do the ruddy same!  - anyway at this rate we will soon be a minority (we probably already are)... maybe we will get a few rights then!
		
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Brilliant! I totally agree.


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## Slinkyunicorn (16 September 2010)

I think you will find a lot of 'mass' catering companies already use halal for school meals etc etc It isn't widely publicised because at the end of the day it tastes no different but makes life easier for them in places where there is a high demand for halal. They only have to cook one dish and label the halal ones and everyones happy - simples.

Whether you like it or realise it you have probably been halal for years.


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## Honey08 (16 September 2010)

Just out of interest, where did you find this out?  I work for BA and can't find anything about it on our company internal web.  Even typing in Gate Gourmet doesn't bring it up.  Its not just a Daily Mail story or something is it?

I'm totally against Halal too.  The best thing everyone can do is order a vegi meal - stating why, it will cost them a fortune and they will probably change their minds.  Most "normal people" don't even know what halal meat involves - they just think its blessed...


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## suzysparkle (16 September 2010)

Google 'British Airways Halal'
It's on many websites. Yes the Daily Mail is one of them but it's also on places like the BNP website, Financial Times, various forums, facebook, and pro-Halal websites.


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## applecart14 (16 September 2010)

Gingerwitch said:



			Come on you lot get your letter writing hats on ! - the numpties at BA are considering using a firm that will supply halal only meals - why to stop (the majority now i suppose) of folks complaing - FGS its called British Airways...... 

I am appalled - the halal method of slaughter need residing to the histroy books and the UK should ban it - and if the folks dont like it - well they should have two choices go veggie or sod off!
		
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While I wouldn't want to 'dis' anyone's religion I totally agree with Gingerwitch.  The halal method of slaughter is appalling and research in it has shown that it can take an adult cow 2.5 minutes to die through blood loss, which is fine if the animal is stunned first (as it renders it unconcious) but some halal places refuse to stun.  Imagine being hung upside down whilst the lifeblood literally drains out of you not to mention the pain.

Well done Gingerwitch for putting your point of view across so expertly. x


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## applecart14 (16 September 2010)

Gingerwitch said:



			Come on you lot get your letter writing hats on ! - the numpties at BA are considering using a firm that will supply halal only meals - why to stop (the majority now i suppose) of folks complaing - FGS its called British Airways...... 

I am appalled - the halal method of slaughter need residing to the histroy books and the UK should ban it - and if the folks dont like it - well they should have two choices go veggie or sod off!
		
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Further to my previous reply please do not read this if you are squeamish or easily upset.  But if you possibly can try to.  There are no nasty photos or anything.  http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-5349411-stop-this-ritual-slaughter.do

Apparently the 'art' of scechita is worse.  I think this is the non stunning method.  My ex was a slaughterman who came over from Ireland to work.  He'd been slaughtering animals over there for four years and was hardened to various sights.  He found employment at a halal meat factory in the centre of Birmingham (when I was a delivery driver and used to pass through this particular area I used to see lorries of terrified sheep be delivered to this place to await slaughter.)  He lasted less than a week and then walked.  What he told me will always stay between him and me.  But here was a grown man who was not in the slightest bit sentimental towards killing animals humanely in floods of tears relating the stories of what he had seen whilst working there.  I am all for eating meat, I love my lamb and steak in particular but I would never knowingly eat halal.


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## singing dawg (16 September 2010)

There's no place for halal in this country its truly barbaric and should be left in the pages of history, Mind you so is stoning people to death and its still done in islamic countries too. 

Support your local independant butcher and always ask how his meat is killed and where it's sourced from. 

So many things in this country are being taken over by foreign laws it makes me glad to be old and heading into my twilight years.


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## CorvusCorax (16 September 2010)

So? They've been serving kosher meals for donkeys years.
My dad worked in slaughter houses for years and has seen halal killings with his own eyes (they had their own special section, ironically the halal sections now inhabit the spaces where the kosher slaughter areas once were  ) and in his opinion the kill is as quick as western methods.

If you don't like animals dying for your consumption, don't eat meat, I've heard plenty of horror stories about our methods too.

But anyhoo, back to the hysteria....


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## applecart14 (16 September 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			So? They've been serving kosher meals for donkeys years.
My dad worked in slaughter houses for years and has seen halal killings with his own eyes (they had their own special section, ironically the halal sections now inhabit the spaces where the kosher slaughter areas once were  ) and in his opinion the kill is as quick as western methods.

If you don't like animals dying for your consumption, don't eat meat, I've heard plenty of horror stories about our methods too.

But anyhoo, back to the hysteria....
		
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I think there is a clear distinction between stunning and not stunning an animal and wouldn't say people are adding to hysteria by voicing their opinions about this, but having said that I am thoroughly bored of the _'wind plaits/thieves plaiting manes in order to 'mark' horses to steal' _hysteria so I hear what you are saying.


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## EAST KENT (16 September 2010)

Anyway you look at it,it is killing an animal for you to eat.Whatever vile method is used the end result is the same..go veggie!


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## Gingerwitch (16 September 2010)

Sorry but for me the a major part of the issue is this - the UK follow all the EU directives laid down like stupid little sheep - but the one about stunning animals before slaughter..... well some of our alternate faith inports dont like this method ...... so we will ignore this one !

Look we either follow EU directives or we dont! - we waste millions on the gravy train rolling out of brussels - and have comparimised UK LTD because of this - its time we stood up and got counted... what was the old saying ? when in rome? well it ought to be amended - when in the UK do what you like, get milked by all and sundray and if you are a true English, Scottish, Irish or Welshman - then get back to work and earn some more money for us beurocrats (sp)  to waste - oh and we may as well have all been sent to the lions for the good our OWN counry has done us!


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## Queenbee87 (16 September 2010)

Surely the most sensible thing to do on British based airlines would be to charge extra for Halal meals to cover the increased costs? 

Our country irritates me sometimes.... increasingly so as time goes on. Whether this is just due to my increased knowledge of current affairs though I don't know.


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## CorvusCorax (16 September 2010)

Standards in UK slaughterhouses/meat plants etc are among the best in Europe, whatever the method of slaughter. It's not perfect, but it's sure better than a lot of other places.

There are no extra charges for speciality meals as far as I know, but you do have to pre-order them. I eat veggie on flights, although I am not a vegetarian. Easy enough to do.


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## Queenbee87 (16 September 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			There are no extra charges for speciality meals as far as I know, but you do have to pre-order them. I eat veggie on flights, although I am not a vegetarian. Easy enough to do.
		
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It wouldn't appear that veggie meals cost as much as Halal though or they would have started only serving vegetarian meals years ago!

Bet if/when they serve only Halal meals they will charge extra for "normal" meat in meals.

I think that any establishments serving/selling Halal meat should have it clearly marked so people are aware.


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## Slinkyunicorn (16 September 2010)

Well it is a safe bet to say that the meat in every curry house/take away any of you have eaten has been made with halal meat - or maybe you don't eat curry.

As I said in my earlier post catering companies have been using halal meat for ages  it makes it easier for them.


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## CorvusCorax (16 September 2010)

slinkyunicorn said:



			Well it is a safe bet to say that the meat in every curry house/take away any of you have eaten has been made with halal meat - or maybe you don't eat curry.

As I said in my earlier post catering companies have been using halal meat for ages  it makes it easier for them.

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Indeed - people, find out where all the meat on your plates or in your sandwiches, comes from! Or don't eat it at all.
I quite fancy a kebab!


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## CorvusCorax (16 September 2010)

Queenbee87 said:



			It wouldn't appear that veggie meals cost as much as Halal though or they would have started only serving vegetarian meals years ago!

Bet if/when they serve only Halal meals they will charge extra for "normal" meat in meals.

I think that any establishments serving/selling Halal meat should have it clearly marked so people are aware.
		
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If that was a rationale then restaurants would only serve vegetarian meals.

I don't think head meat, er, sausages and chips, costs more than kebab and chips, does it?
Chicken doesn't say 'stunned, dunked, throats slit, bled out' but that's what happens to them....


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## Queenbee87 (16 September 2010)

slinkyunicorn said:



			Well it is a safe bet to say that the meat in every curry house/take away any of you have eaten has been made with halal meat - or maybe you don't eat curry.

As I said in my earlier post catering companies have been using halal meat for ages  it makes it easier for them.

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I probably have eaten it yes (don't like curry but am partial to chinese food) but that doesn't mean I agree with it......

Who knows, I may have eaten dog, cat or rat unknowingly too!


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## applecart14 (16 September 2010)

slinkyunicorn said:



			Well it is a safe bet to say that the meat in every curry house/take away any of you have eaten has been made with halal meat - or maybe you don't eat curry.

As I said in my earlier post catering companies have been using halal meat for ages  it makes it easier for them.

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I won't eat meat curries in a curry house I will only have a mushroom balti because I do not agree with halal.  As for kebab's our local chippy serves non halal meat (or so they tell me).  I didn't know about KFC although I have tried to stop eating it recently as I volunteer for the British Hen Welfare Trust who help rescue and rehome battery hens through their network of coordinators who work alongside farmers to help rehome hens destined for slaughter at the end of their egg production life.  - _*Sorry can't help myself, always preaching about the excellent work they do!!*_  The vast majority of hens end their lives as 'the colonels special recipe'.


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## CorvusCorax (16 September 2010)

I'm starving now!!!
Yes, have seen the chickens which go to KFC, and the chickens which go to M&S. There's a big difference (believe it or not, pre slaughterhouse, my dad was in hatcheries and broiler houses...handy sort to have around for this sort of discussion  !)


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## 3DE (16 September 2010)

I'm so glad we have our own chickens for eggs and meat - good to know they have had a good life...

All the meat we buy is from the butcher who sources locally so we know exactly which farm it comes from. We are getting a piglet tomorrow farm all the pork comes from - dead excited! Its a gloucester old spot x saddleback.


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## perfect11s (16 September 2010)

We  have  had weak goverment of both main parties that  for years says what we want to hear while doing the exact opposit, like bending over backward to acommodate everyone but the average Briton,   remember  we are now ruled by brussels  and  soon it will be islam
Halal is just one part of the islamifcation of the west, a steady drip drip drip towards sharia law and then stoning people,  They wil not rest untill we have been conqured...


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## CorvusCorax (16 September 2010)

Okaaaaaaaay................time to leave the thread before it gets too bonkers.......y'all stay scared of 'the other' ya hear?


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## suzysparkle (16 September 2010)

The point is that there is a big difference between curry houses etc serving Halal and British airlines offering no alternative. At least you have a choice with the curry house (you go or you don't go!!) but if you go on holiday you should not have to choose vegetarian to avoid meat slaughtered to meet Islamic religious belief. If it's a carrier like Emirates then fine because it's an airline based overseas. 

As for the whole don't eat meat comment. I have no issue with slaughtering animals for meat if the slaughter is as humane as it can be. Halal methods aren't. Why on earth is there an 'allowance' outwith OUR law for it?? This country ought to grow a backbone and say put up or **** off. 

I have eaten Halal - because I have flown with Emirates (and my choice was based on the aircraft type they flew on that route!). I suspect I will have at other times as well unknowingly but I do buy all my meat from butcher which is local and all slaughtered via stunning first. I also buy free range. I am open to other cultures however, I firmly believe that we should not have to change things in this way in this country. It wouldn't happen overseas for us, so why the other way round? 

Money I guess. Money and religious conflict are pretty much to blame for everything negative is this world. That's a bold statement I know.


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## YorksG (16 September 2010)

It is my understanding that there is an intention across many mass catering suppliers to provide only halal meat. What I don't understand about this is how this fits with our slaughter laws. I thought that halal meat production (which I do not agree with) was for the consumption by devout muslims. I am not a devout muslim, so should not be allowed to eat meat which is not killed in the manner set down by law for general consumption. Surely the idea of mass halal slaughter is open to legal challenge?


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## Doncella (17 September 2010)

suzysparkle said:



			This makes my blood boil!!

However, it's not actually British Airways - though they are such an easy target it's been headlined in the press that it's BA. It's actually Gate Gourmet who supply the meals and the reason for considering it is purely down to cost. Airlines offer Halal meals and they have to be pre-ordered. This costs more money. Gate Gourmet are saying if they made all meals Halal it would save them quite a lot of money. It wouldn't just affect BA, it would affect many Airlines.

Now here's the thing. This would be forcing everyone to eat Halal. If you fly on Emirates for example, all meals are Halal, so you don't get a choice. They don't offer a non Halal meat option - you'd have to order vegetarian. 

Why oh why is this country so weak? Personally I think this slaughter method should be banned in the UK anyway. Let's hope Gate Gourmet do the right thing here and keep with having options rather than forcing British people into eating meat slaughtered to other religious standards. 

A few years ago loads of sheep were nicked. They were found in a big barn being slaughtered for Halal meat.
		
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With you Suzysparkle.


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## AshTay (17 September 2010)

My twopenneth...

I suspect there's a difference between the true guidelines of halal slaughter and how it is put into practise. I also suspect that although it has been *believed* ny muslims for hundreds of years that the halal method causes minimal suffering, no one other than the animals can actually tell us how much they are suffering.

Have a read of this...
http://www.halalfoodauthority.co.uk/HFA Brief Guidlines for slaughtering.pdf

I do genuinely believe that the intention of the halal method is to minimise suffering, whether or not that works in practise is another issue.

I'm a veggie. I think all methods are ultimately barbaric. I would only eat meat that came from a local source and that wasn't slaughtered en masse in an abbatoir. So even if I wasn't veggie, I'd order veggie on flights and anywhere else where I couldn't trust the source.


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## EAST KENT (17 September 2010)

Humans don`t need meat protein ,admittedly I eat dairy products and my own eggs..but never meat.We keep pet pigs..eating pork would be like you eating dog..ugh!


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## zefragile (17 September 2010)

I came across something a while back, a study had been done which showed that halal/kosher slaughter could be more humane if done expertly. Something about massive drop in blood pressure resulting in rapid brain death. I'm sure it's out there if anyone wants to find it.


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## Kat (17 September 2010)

Now you see I've always wondered why the airlines cater to so many choices. Why not just offer one "main meal" your standard roast beef or whatever and then one minority meal. 

This is a totally veggie/vegan/gluten free/halal/kosher/diabetic meal. By cutting out meat you wouldn't have to go down the halal slaughter method, and you would just need to tot up how many "non-standard" meals there are and serve the same to them all. 

It would be pretty boring food I guess, salad probably, but it is only one meal and you can always take a pack up.


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## Gingerwitch (17 September 2010)

Why dont we all just lobby the fat cats and ask them to explain why we are being taken over a forigen race - are we not just celebrating the battle of britain - well i bet most of those poor lads are spinning in there graves - and at this rate we will all be wishing we had been invaded by the Germans - at least we knew whom we were fighting and at least we were able to fight back! It makes me sick to the core - the last 4/5 pariliments have THROWN this country away - they should be ashamed !


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## Dovorian (17 September 2010)

So are we now being told that Halal is the requirement of the majority? I can't believe it to be honest, what about Kosher in that case?

Having travelled a bit I have always managed  to avoid Halal by eating vegetarian food, that is my choice and to be perfectly honest if I did have a special dietary requirement and wanted to eat then I would accept an additional charge for it.

This Country is going mad, or according to my OH, to the dogs!


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## bryngelenponies (17 September 2010)

Gingerwitch said:



			Its days like this i wish i were FRENCH!!!!! - they would not pussy foot around this lot would they?

FGS if i went to saudi I would not be allowed to wear a mini skirt, drink vodka and have a snog.... "oh i am a christian i would cry - here is my cross..... you are picking on little old me.... i should have my rights!" - off with my head would be the answer and i wish this country would do the ruddy same!  - anyway at this rate we will soon be a minority (we probably already are)... maybe we will get a few rights then!
		
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I completely agree with this! Everyone would be up in arms against Sarkozy but he wouldn't just give in and give the pro halal people their way. I think this country needs to learn to stand it's ground and not be so easily ordered around.
End of rant because if I get into this I'll just get carried away


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## ozpoz (17 September 2010)

Instead of ranting about Halal. if everyone who is concerned watches the film Food Inc. , they will be much more concerned about avoiding and protesting against factory farms, and the suffering that causes. 
I'm veggie , but I believe that properly carried out halal is a less painful death, an army surgeon explained this to me!


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## CorvusCorax (17 September 2010)

Hurrah! Just spoke to my dad. Agreed, if the slaughterman is sufficiently skilled then it is just as quick.
Bear in mind this is a man who has seen a lot of animals, of all shapes and sizes, die and has had the job of making sure everything is above board and correct.
His words: "If it's going to die, it's going to die and no one method is any nicer than another, if it's a bullet or a knife, as long as it is done quickly and properly."


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## wireweiners (17 September 2010)

I did a google search on halal slaugher since I wasn't sure what it involved.  There was an article by Temple Grandin who is the foremost expert on humane slaughter and livestock handling facilities.  According to the article halal and kosher slaughering can be humane if the slaughterman knows what they are doing and they have proper restraint equipment to hold the animal upright, instead of hanging it while it is still alive.


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## Doncella (17 September 2010)

bryngelenponies said:



			I completely agree with this! Everyone would be up in arms against Sarkozy but he wouldn't just give in and give the pro halal people their way. I think this country needs to learn to stand it's ground and not be so easily ordered around.
End of rant because if I get into this I'll just get carried away 

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I agree with this as well.  The Popes' envoy was right we are a third world country.


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## CorvusCorax (17 September 2010)

Oh well, don't let the facts get in the way....

Wireweiners, I have the Temple Grandin film sitting here, still need to get round to watching it!


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## misswitch2 (17 September 2010)

I am not sure about Halal slaughter methods. Much like this thread, it is up for debate as to how humane it is. From what i have read, it is more dependant on the skill of the person slaughtering the animal to minimise suffering than the method itself. 

I tend to eat meat only if i know it's origins (i.e, organic and free range, or raised on the farm where my horse is stabled). If i am unsure then i will happily take the vegetarian option.


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## TinselRider (17 September 2010)

Hmm I am not at all for eating halal .....so therefore I shall eat Veggie when I fly...simples 

Lets face it......not much we can do about it is there!


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## trundle (19 September 2010)

boogles said:



			Hmm I am not at all for eating halal .....so therefore I shall eat Veggie when I fly...simples
		
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Or, you could just fly with an airline other than BA, that doesn't serve all-halal meat. Equally simples. 

Funny how the vast majority of reports of this outrage are from "fear the Muslims"-type sites. There's one called creepingsharia.com, FFS! And the BNP is hardly a reputable source of news. 

The actual quote from the FT, whose readers have some semblance of an education, often even KNOW brown-skinned people,  and generally see the Daily mail for the rag it is, says;

"BA told the Financial Times it had not yet discussed the move with Gate Gourmet and had no plans to change its menus."

Not quite the same as the story on the BNP and Mail websites...but then you wouldn't expect it to be.


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## Rollin (19 September 2010)

Apparently Ascot Racecourse only serve Halal Chicken according to Broadcasting House (R4) this am.  They say they can't inform people - too complicated.  As the journalist explained they have to specify if meals contain nuts!!! so why not Halal chicken?


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## CorvusCorax (19 September 2010)

And I am sure no one at Ascot has keeled over and died from eating it.
Halal chicken slaughter and Western chicken slaughter really isn't that much different.
If people were using the term Kosher, instead, would there be such an uproar?


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## kal40 (19 September 2010)

I apologise in advance for my ignorance but how do we know what meat has been slaughtered in this way?  Does it have to be labelled?


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## EAST KENT (19 September 2010)

As I don`t want any animal to die for me to indulge in un-necessery animal protein ,then of course veggie is the way.Assuming here then that if halal IS acceptable to some of you ..would you allow your horses/dogs to be killed in that way? Probably not! Another pet rant...would you allow your animals to be castrated without anaesthetic ??Most of your pork/lamb is so treated. It ain`t pleasant to be a humble farm animal in UK,and it needs to get these double standards sorted out.


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## Vicki_Krystal (19 September 2010)

trundle said:



			Or, you could just fly with an airline other than BA, that doesn't serve all-halal meat. Equally simples. 

QUOTE]

Problem is if it is down to Gate Gourmet - it isnt just BA that will be affected.

I work for easyJet - we are supplied by Gate Gourmet also.
		
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## Tinkerbee (19 September 2010)

Oh fgs. I lived in Sri Lanka for 4 years and loads of stuff was halal and I survived pretty well I think... What exactly is the issue? I read an article a while back (I can't remember where..I'll try and find it...) and it said that many halal killings are now *animal stunned *prayer said as animal killed and this is OK as the animal is technically still alive (just stunned) when the prayer is said... so again WHERE is the issue/difference? I cant imagine a "normal" killing is much more acceptable than halal. If your morals are so abused, go vegan.

And tbh if it was halal that made you stop going to KFC then you can't really talk as the chickens would have far more horrendous lives before the supposedly cruel killing...

But as CC says, keep freaking out...


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## jaypeebee (19 September 2010)

You might want to find out more.  This may be educational.

http://www.eathalalonly.com/


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## Gingerwitch (19 September 2010)

The issue is this:-

EU directive states that all animals must be stunned prior to slaughter ....

Halal, and Kosha animals are not stunned prior to slaughter - what ever you may belive the poor beasts are hung up to bleed to death and can take up to 2.5 mins to die - a very traumatic and painful death - as crap as normal methods of slaugher are i really cant see a captive bolt, stunned animal struggling to live for up to 2.5 mins.... So why is the UK bending over backwards to allow this barbaric form of slaugher... now i agree the uk has an awful lot to answer on animal welfare  - the closing down of most small slaugher houses has meant the the journey for many animals is a tramua in its self..... but this just leaves an awful taste in my mouth.... now the report in the mail today has said that many of these establishements are using this meat because of its "cheapness"- so easy way to sort this out... ban these methods of slaugher here in the uk, and if they want to eat this type of meat let them import it.... now that would also help the uk economey as well... imaging all those trucks having to come over the waters to our shores?, all the extra handling of food that would have to happen and all the extra employment generated....

But what will the great and good of the uk do? nothing... what will the RSPCA do about it.... nothing..... and like i said in an earlier post, its a pity so many courages, brave folks lost there lives to win the battle of britain as we sure as hell have lost it now!


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## brighthair (19 September 2010)

I wish free range meat was as widely available as Halal....
I don't eat takeaway meat, or KFC and the like because I like to eat good quality, happy meat. I don't mind Halal meat being available, but I think it should be labelled as such, and then people can have the choice


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## jaypeebee (19 September 2010)

Gingerwitch said:



			The issue is this:-

EU directive states that all animals must be stunned prior to slaughter ....
		
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No.  Halal and Kosher meats and products are exempt from this directive.  Halal animals are almost always stunned before killing in EU.


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## rubysmum (19 September 2010)

this is the kind of thread i should avoid like the plague, but i really cannot ignore some of the raving racism being expressed here.....
my muslim relatives - british citizens/british taxpayers/mostly working in education/social work & the NHS [ ie - contributing to the smooth running of this country] practise a religion which has specific dietary rules - as do many others - they can now eat safely in many places
christanity has no remaining dietary rules - so objections to halal meet can only be because
a] you object to the method of slaughter - do you also object to kosher slaughter methods?
b]you object to the practises of islam - in which case - how much do you know about Islam & what are you doing to promote other religious practises in britain


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## 3DE (19 September 2010)

rubysmum said:



			a] you object to the method of slaughter - do you also object to kosher slaughter methods?
		
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That is what people have said time and time again. The method of slaughter for halal (and Kosher) meat is barbaric. Why does the animal have to be slung up and bled dry while still alive?

Maybe as someone with muslim relatives you can explain the reason for this practice.


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## suzysparkle (19 September 2010)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ed-in-to-food-chain-says-minister-805396.html

I think this article from a couple of years ago describes it well.

My issue is the slaughter method. Why should more (and that's millions more) animals be slaughtered this way without reason? I am not religious at all, but I do believe animals should have a good life and the most humane slaughter available. For this reason, if these changes came about and I wanted to eat meat on an affected flight, it would be slaughtered by what I believe is a less humane way. That's not fair.

And no, I don't eat at KFC. All my meat comes from my butcher and is slaughtered locally (stunned first). 

I can't see how this is racist? I don't object to other cultures / religions, but I do object if their beliefs that I don't agree with are forced upon me in this country (I accept that if I went to some other countries all meat is Halal or Kosher etc). It would be like me being forced to go to church. I'd object to that as well.


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## perfect11s (19 September 2010)

rubysmum said:



			this is the kind of thread i should avoid like the plague, but i really cannot ignore some of the raving racism being expressed here.....
my muslim relatives - british citizens/british taxpayers/mostly working in education/social work & the NHS [ ie - contributing to the smooth running of this country] practise a religion which has specific dietary rules - as do many others - they can now eat safely in many places
christanity has no remaining dietary rules - so objections to halal meet can only be because
a] you object to the method of slaughter - do you also object to kosher slaughter methods?
b]you object to the practises of islam - in which case - how much do you know about Islam & what are you doing to promote other religious practises in britain
		
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 Raving racsim oh please.. what part of objecting to cruelty is racist ?? its not racist to critisise religion as it isnt colour specific ...


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## Gingerwitch (19 September 2010)

Rubisymum - is Saudi Arabia a racist country then, should i  be able to take a pint of larger, have a snog whilst shimmiying around in a mini skirt?  - why dont we allow various types of cannabis to be smoked freeley as it is in Amsterdam etc- so is this denail racist?
Why should we allow bigamey, child brides, etc etc..... suppose we are really racist now... oh what about honour killiings and a bit of stoning?..... the ability to lend money without paying interest.... the arranged marridges of inoccents..... SORRY - forgot this is the UK2010- we accept all of this under the name of HUMAN RIGHTS - pity we are such a pathetic nation these days..... anyone else want to take us over?  - wish i was German or French right now..... cant wait for us all to have to wear veils, obey Sharia law and generally give in to Mecca..... oh was i wrong.... was i supposed to have been born into a freedom of speech country????? - was i supposed to have rights in my own country.......? or that was a long ago dream....?

Do you want to start stoning us? banning alcohol? anything else from a christian country you quite wish to ban?...... oh and can i just apologise for me being an English Christinan in my own country !


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## CorvusCorax (19 September 2010)

I think you should have a pint of (German?) lager right now GW, it might calm you down a bit!!!!!


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## suzysparkle (19 September 2010)

I wouldn't worry. The term 'racist' is used wrongly all the time these days. If anything, it's racist against non Muslims as we are the ones potentially being forced to eat Halal if we choose meat based meals on airlines. And yes, we could could choose vegetarian, but why should we?????????????

The only thing people have been upset by on this post is the thought of being given no alternative to eating meat slaughtered by religious methods the majority of the UK population don't believe in. Methods that are not as humane as those normally used in the UK.

The googled definition:
Racism is when someone thinks different skin colour or religious beliefs make some people better than others. 
Racists bully people who are different to them. They do this by name-calling or violence.

So from my understanding if Halal is made normal it's because SOME people think it's better? I see no name calling and no violence. 

The very fact it's catered for in the UK, and millions of animals at that, how can the term racist be used??????????


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## Alec Swan (20 September 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			Hurrah! Just spoke to my dad. Agreed, if the slaughterman is sufficiently skilled then it is just as quick.
Bear in mind this is a man who has seen a lot of animals, of all shapes and sizes, die and has had the job of making sure everything is above board and correct.
His words: "If it's going to die, it's going to die and no one method is any nicer than another, if it's a bullet or a knife, as long as it is done quickly and properly."
		
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CC,

your dad's right.  Given that the slaughterman is experienced,  and importantly he has a deep rooted work ethic,  abiding by the creed,  then there is little difference.

The problem arises,  I suspect,  when the man doing the killing,  has become so desensitised,  by years of barbarity,  that his conscience has left him.  

And just to level the score,  from another thread,  isn't it strange how the Scots don't like the English,  and the English don't like the Welsh?!!  I'm sure that there's a good reason for it,  but what ever it was,  it was a couple of hundred years ago,  and is now an irrelevance,  though not for some,  it seems!!

Alec.


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## YorksG (20 September 2010)

I oppose the imposing of halal or kosher killed meat, without it being stated as such, on the population at large. That is not racist or anti-semetic, merely someone who believes that her beliefs and moral code have as much validity as those of others. I live in an area where the form of islam ensures that the animals for halal slaughter are NOT pre-stunned, because that is the intepretation of the Koran by the local Imams. I do not wish to have this method of slaughte rimposed on me by stealth, and again question the legallity of this, as the law allows halal and kosher slaughter for the religeous beliefs of the consumer. Surely if the consumers are not of the religeons which support this form of slaughter, then it is no longer legal?


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## Gingerwitch (20 September 2010)

I suppose the animal at the end of the day is killed just as quickly with the blade as the one at the start of the day.....?

All we want is all meat products, supermarkets, airlines, menus especially fast food joints to TELL us the method of slaughter... give us the choice - surely it will help folks whom stricly stick to Halal and Kosher meat too !


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## chestnut cob (20 September 2010)

Gingerwitch said:



			Why dont we all just lobby the fat cats and ask them to explain why we are being taken over a forigen race - are we not just celebrating the battle of britain - well i bet most of those poor lads are spinning in there graves - and at this rate we will all be wishing we had been invaded by the Germans - at least we knew whom we were fighting and at least we were able to fight back! It makes me sick to the core - the last 4/5 pariliments have THROWN this country away - they should be ashamed !
		
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That has to be THE most racist, bigoted post I have ever read on this forum.

Has it occurred to you to look at it a different way...  it is the caterer who is considering implementing this.  From a business POV that most likely means they are getting so many requests for Halal meat that it isn't financially viable to supply both.  So, they have decided it is easier to supply just Halal.  The answer is simple, order a veggie meal on a plane.  These sorts of decisions are not made because every company out there is secretly run by someone with links to the Taliban.  They are taken on a commercial basis and on what is financially viable.

But I'll stop talking sense now and leave you to your hysteria and the Daily Mail...


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## chestnut cob (20 September 2010)

suzysparkle said:



			I wouldn't worry. The term 'racist' is used wrongly all the time these days. If anything, it's racist against non Muslims as we are the ones potentially being forced to eat Halal if we choose meat based meals on airlines. And yes, we could could choose vegetarian, but why should we?????????????
		
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Can I ask *why* you would even want to eat the meat they currently serve on BA and other flights?  It's utterly disgusting!


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## perfect11s (20 September 2010)

chestnut cob said:



			That has to be THE most racist, bigoted post I have ever read on this forum.

Has it occurred to you to look at it a different way...  it is the caterer who is considering implementing this.  From a business POV that most likely means they are getting so many requests for Halal meat that it isn't financially viable to supply both.  So, they have decided it is easier to supply just Halal.  The answer is simple, order a veggie meal on a plane.  These sorts of decisions are not made because every company out there is secretly run by someone with links to the Taliban.  They are taken on a commercial basis and on what is financially viable.

But I'll stop talking tripe now and leave you to your hysteria and the Daily Mail...
		
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Add me to your list of racsists if you want I aggree with the other post and am also sick of this misguided apeasment of minortys...  stuff them if they have to have halal to conform to there horrid religion  let THEM have the vegie option ... simple fit in  or ship out why do they come and live in a western country to escape oppression and poverty then try to turn the host county in to what they left behind...


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## eahotson (20 September 2010)

Their horrid religion gave rights to woman when even the idea would have been unthinkable in the west.They also did not burn people at the stake because they were of the wrong religion, threaten small schoolchildren going to school (wrong branch of the religion) as in Northern Ireland, or plant bombs in Warrington.They did not build concentration camps.Halal slaughter, as Kosher slaughter, was an attempt to slaughter animals humanely.It was thought up thousands of years ago, prior to guns, stunning, abatoirs etc. when people lived alongside their animals and the facts of life and death were not so easily hidden from them.Remember the film of the Mongolian woman strangling and then stabbing to death a horse? Unthinkeable in halal or kosher slaughter.


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## EAST KENT (20 September 2010)

perfect11s said:



			Add me to your list of racsists if you want I aggree with the other post and am also sick of this misguided apeasment of minortys...  stuff them if they have to have halal to conform to there horrid religion  let THEM have the vegie option ... simple fit in  or ship out why do they come and live in a western country to escape oppression and poverty then try to turn the host county in to what they left behind...
		
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I wonder how much notice we`d get if we asked for properly humanely stunned  meat..in Saudi Arabia??  Surely it is a case of "when in Rome do as the Romans do" ??  And how can wishing for a quick humane method of destruction be racist? We are just so daft and accommadating in UK are`nt we..just roll over and give in rather than make a stand on humanity grounds!


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## Gingerwitch (20 September 2010)

Nothing humane about how halal and kosher were thought up - it was the only way - back in the midst of time and in very hot countries that the meat could be kept safe for eating i.e. it had to be bled out to stop infection occuring to the meat...... but unfortunalty time has moved on and we now have - freezers, cold storage, and more human methods of slaughter - this is what should be being used now....

also tell me - how do you not sever the spinal column of a chicken? - they must have very deft and small knives..... then how on earth do you slit the throat of a 600kg cow - must have huge muscles and a huge knife - oh and is the poor beast hung up by its legs prior to being killed or after .......?


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## perfect11s (20 September 2010)

eahotson said:



			Their horrid religion gave rights to woman when even the idea would have been unthinkable in the west.They also did not burn people at the stake because they were of the wrong religion, threaten small schoolchildren going to school (wrong branch of the religion) as in Northern Ireland, or plant bombs in Warrington.They did not build concentration camps.Halal slaughter, as Kosher slaughter, was an attempt to slaughter animals humanely.It was thought up thousands of years ago, prior to guns, stunning, abatoirs etc. when people lived alongside their animals and the facts of life and death were not so easily hidden from them.Remember the film of the Mongolian woman strangling and then stabbing to death a horse? Unthinkeable in halal or kosher slaughter.
		
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rights to women!!!!!LOL.. like stoning to death for minor adultry and being second class citizens not being allowed education or to drive, the list is enless  and other religions are the infidel and christans are persicuted attacked and killed in moslem countys  and forced  to convert and as for planting bombs  in warrington not yet!!!but countless  suicide bombs  against there fellow citicens and  two planes were flown into  the twin towers  which killed100s of inocent people in the name of  islam  and the london bombings and other atempts .... please....... its a barbaric religion  stuck in the middle ages....


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## orton (20 September 2010)

I consider myself average BRITISH, now I may get shot down in flames here but...

I am fed up of numerous spineless ninnies that have forgotten that this country is a Christian country and most definately NOT a Muslim country. I am fed up of the so called minority faith dictating their rights for this that and the other. Surely places like BRITISH Airways, and KFC and our schools should remember they are based in Great Britain not some Muslim country. The muslim women are allowed to walk through our streets like black looking Darleks with only the slightest bit of eyes showing, they allowed into our banks, petrol stations etc totally concealed like this, yet can a British christian walk in with a motorbike helmet on, NO!!

Its about time this country remembered we are Great Britain, Christian faith and if the Muslims and other faiths don't like our laws and regulations and the BRITISH way of life then go **** off to a country that is governed and led by that faith.

We already have several major cities where the British white is the minority, for example Birmingham. There are definately now parts where you would be insane if you are white to go at night!

I don't mind other faiths living here, I couldn't give a monkeys what colour they are, just so long as they remember what country they are living in, we are a Christian state with a Queen that is the head of the Church of ENGLAND so abide by our way of life or Naf Off.

Its no wonder there is growing support for the BNP party, people want these politicians etc to stand up for our rights and not cave in and become a Muslim country.

I am British, C of E faith and I find this whole thing offensive yet I wouldn't be surprised if my reply is removed as it may be considered to cause offense to the minority faiths and that would be typical of what happens in GREAT BRITAIN today!!!!!!


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## applecart14 (20 September 2010)

zefragile said:



			I came across something a while back, a study had been done which showed that halal/kosher slaughter could be more humane if done expertly. Something about massive drop in blood pressure resulting in rapid brain death. I'm sure it's out there if anyone wants to find it.
		
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Sometimes though there is a blood clot that comes from the actual cut that prevents the drop in blood pressure happening which delays brain death which delays unconciousness and goodness knows what else.


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## gekko (20 September 2010)

The level of racism, hysteria and paranoia displayed by some idiots here is incredible.


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## CorvusCorax (20 September 2010)

Hatred, you forgot the word 'hatred'. Christians, my arse.


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## zefragile (20 September 2010)

There were other religions around on this island before Christianity, I'd just like to point that out to some people


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## Tinkerbee (20 September 2010)

orton said:



			I am fed up of numerous spineless ninnies that have forgotten that this country is a Christian country
		
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*******s. The people who I hear saying this can count on one hand the amount of times they've been to church (yes thats not an exact sign of belief but...) and are the most un Christian people I have met. Generally full of hatred, ignorance and intolerance.

Since you are so adament, I trust you are a good committed Christian, or at least have the pretence of regular Church going....


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## CorvusCorax (20 September 2010)

Indeed.
Christianity is a relatively new religion in the British Isles. The peaceful Pagan religions were conquered, converted and stamped out. 
But again, why let facts get in the way.


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## Tinkerbee (20 September 2010)

zefragile said:



			There were other religions around on this island before Christianity, I'd just like to point that out to some people 

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And don't tell them about the French..The Romans...etc, they'll have a fit...


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## eahotson (20 September 2010)

O.K then, as this is suposed to be about animal welfare.Was James Grey muslim? Is the long distance transport of horses in unspeakable conditions for slaughter happening in muslim countries?Battery farming anyone?Bull fighting? And I am only skimming the surface.I am sure animal cruelty does happen in Muslim countries but its certainly not exclusive to it.Oh and, just as a statement, I am white, British andculturally at least, Christian.My husband is a legal immigrant, an NHS doctor and Hindu.


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## chestnut cob (20 September 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			We are just so daft and accommadating in UK are`nt we..just roll over and give in rather than make a stand on humanity grounds!

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Making a stand on humanity grounds is one thing, but that isn't how this thread has turned out.  I agree with you 100% about that - yes, make a stand because you feel Halal methods are inhumane.  That's fine.

However, most on this thread having turned it into an excuse to bash people of a different religion and complain about "their" country being "taken over" by people from "foreign countries".  There needs to be a distinction between the two discussions rather than the clouding of the issue, which is what is happening on this thread ATM.

Don't use this Halal meat on planes issue as a thin veil to voice intolerance towards other religions and cultures, which is what this thread has turned into.  People are using it as an excuse to vent their spleens about Islam, Europe, and anyone who is different.

Religion is IMHO the root of all evil.  Those of you who think Islam is evil, tell me do you think the Catholic church is any better?  The latter is a religion which doesn't believe in contraception, women's rights, or that paedophile priests have committed a crime, "just a sin".  Pretty much every war that has ever been fought on this planet has been caused because of religious zealousness and intolerance.


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## eahotson (20 September 2010)

Read up about the treatment of the Cathars in S.France!


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## Gingerwitch (20 September 2010)

Gekko - if i were sat reading this post in Australia i would probably  have your opinion, but then your government is pretty tough on imigration and so it should be, and certainly stands up for the rights of the Austrialians...the uk unfortunatly is a weak as a kitten with cat flu.

Oh we have not had "as a good Christian you should turn the other cheek" quote just yet but then again "an eye for an eye"

Can you also tell me why if England is an English speaking country - why do we waste millions of tax payers money on interpreters? why do we print all the government information of how to claim benefits etc in 142 different langauges? 

Do as the Parisians do - if you cant ask for it in French - you get a blank stare and a garbled expression in French.

I am now asking every establishement i go into how the meat has been killed - and trust me the reactions have been extreamly interesting - try it - you may just find out that it fun !


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## Tinkerbee (20 September 2010)

Gingerwitch said:



			I am now asking every establishement i go into how the meat has been killed - and trust me the reactions have been extreamly interesting - try it - you may just find out that it fun !
		
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This is interesting. When I eat out I'm more interested in how the animal LIVED. Is battery/intensively farmed meat OK as long as it wasn't Halal killed? 

Also re Australia... I'm pretty sure every white Australian will be an immigrant, but hey ho...


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## chestnut cob (20 September 2010)

zefragile said:



			There were other religions around on this island before Christianity, I'd just like to point that out to some people 

Click to expand...

I also think some people forgot that the Christian religion came from Islam...  all religions are the same, at their roots.  Jesus is a prophet in the Koran, the Christians just took it one step further.  From what I know of religion, doesn't Judaism relate to the Old Testament only (please correct me if I'm wrong)?  The OT is pretty barbaric if you read it!

Religion is simply a means with which to attempt to control the masses and was used in the past to explain things which man couldn't understand.  We have science now so I can't see the use for religion personally.  Unfortunately, there will be a few fundamentalists and fanatics in every religion but that doesn't make the majority who follow it bad.  A little bit of tolerance would go a very long way.  I don't believe in God and I'm not religious but I couldn't care less if others do.

As for comments on immigration and there being "places in Birmingham you daren't go if you are white"... do those of you making these comments believe you are 100% white British?  And what is British anyway?  Most of you will be descended from Saxons, Normans, Vikings.. all people who came here from *gasps* abroad... :0.  A few of you on here are starting to sound rather like that neo-Nazi leader of the BNP (Nick someone?).  As for "Great Britain"... I don't know a single Scottish or Welsh person who wants to be part of that... as far as they are concerned, it's England, Scotland and Wales.


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## eahotson (20 September 2010)

We wouldn't have had a health service if it wasn't for the immigrants who staffed it.At my nursing training school, a few years ago admittedly, we had to recruit foreign nursing students as there weren't enough people of the right calibre locally born to keep our training school open otherwise.The foreign born doctors worked in the inner cities mostly where the nice white middle class Christians didn't want to go.


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## Gingerwitch (20 September 2010)

Look this post will always bring religion into it - the very fact that religion is used as a reason to kill animals in this manner cannot be seperated off.

~oh and isnt the caste system one of the most racist in the world.... so glad i am not an untouchable -


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## Gingerwitch (20 September 2010)

Any one seen a bull fight in England recently.....? urm.... just how many foxes were killed by "inhumane" methods each day.....? but hunting got banned didnt it?? - suppose we should have said that it was part of being c of e and then we could have got to keep it?

Are we saying that sending kids up children up chimneys, bear bating, cock fighting etc would not have been banned if islam supported them then?


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## perfect11s (20 September 2010)

eahotson said:



			We wouldn't have had a health service if it wasn't for the immigrants who staffed it.At my nursing training school, a few years ago admittedly, we had to recruit foreign nursing students as there weren't enough people of the right calibre locally born to keep our training school open otherwise.The foreign born doctors worked in the inner cities mostly where the nice white middle class Christians didn't want to go.
		
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 What tosh we wondn't have a health service!!!!!! what a stupid inconsiddered
remark....


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## eahotson (20 September 2010)

Who would have staffed it? Fairies?


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## CorvusCorax (20 September 2010)

**sits on hands**


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## Tinkerbee (20 September 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			**sits on hands**
		
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Back to the dogs room?!


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## CorvusCorax (20 September 2010)

Yeah, they're a bit less mental in there.


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## chestnut cob (20 September 2010)

Gingerwitch said:



			Gekko - if i were sat reading this post in Australia i would probably  have your opinion, but then your government is pretty tough on imigration and so it should be, and certainly stands up for the rights of the Austrialians...the uk unfortunatly is a weak as a kitten with cat flu.
		
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You do realise that the Australian Govt limits immigration because it only wants to admit people who bring benefit to the economy?  They are not doing it to "stand up for the rights of Australians".  They don't care what colour or religion immigrants are provided they bring something useful to the country and pay into the system.


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## Gingerwitch (20 September 2010)

watch out doggies - we will be eating you next (if we arent all ready lol)

I often wondered what went chow mein?


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## chestnut cob (20 September 2010)

Gingerwitch said:



			Any one seen a bull fight in England recently.....? urm.... just how many foxes were killed by "inhumane" methods each day.....? but hunting got banned didnt it?? - suppose we should have said that it was part of being c of e and then we could have got to keep it?

Are we saying that sending kids up children up chimneys, bear bating, cock fighting etc would not have been banned if islam supported them then?
		
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This post doesn't even make sense!  You have become incoherent in your hysteria.


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## chestnut cob (20 September 2010)

eahotson said:



			Who would have staffed it? Fairies?
		
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^^ This ^^

I also think people forget that the immigrants often do the jobs that the white, British "working class" people refuse to do, preferring instead to spend their lives on benefits claiming there are no jobs out there.  Immigrants end up doing the grotty jobs.

I couldn't care less who comes to the UK provided they work, they pay taxes and they contribute to the economy.  I'd rather the entire country was full of the dreaded Muslims if they work.  Rather them than lazy white British who won't work for a living and expect my taxes to keep them.


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## Gingerwitch (20 September 2010)

I am removing myself from this thread - its up to everyone to object to halal and kosher meat being forced on the main stream.... if you dont object - you cant then complain about it can you?


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## eahotson (20 September 2010)

The joys of Saturday night in casuality as the drunks were dragged in screaming "I don't want any ******ing P*ki W*nker treating me!" Well, the only reason tha said "F* etc. was there AND treated them was often that no one else wanted to be there.


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## eahotson (20 September 2010)

Well at least no one has pressed a button!


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## perfect11s (20 September 2010)

gekko said:



			The level of racism, hysteria and paranoia displayed by some idiots here is incredible.
		
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 hopfully your nice new PM and labour goverment will open your countys doors open to anyone!!!!!! and give them every benifit without asking for anything in return... see how you like it!!!  its ok for you....  people enter austraila on there merit and  as a result your goverment keeps your way of life safe.. we have had destuctive social  engineering experiment inficted on us  by almost totaly uncontroled immigration by sucsesive labour administrations over the last 50 years... the country is now suffering over population adding to pressure on services and housing shortage  and widening the gap between rich and poor...


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## Tinkerbee (20 September 2010)

Gingerwitch said:



			Can you also tell me why if England is an English speaking country - why do we waste millions of tax payers money on interpreters? why do we print all the government information of how to claim benefits etc in 142 different langauges?
		
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I know I'm being petty but... there have been some awful examples of spelling and grammar within this thread, usually from the people shouting loudest about foreign folks.  Says it all really, I'm quite embarrassed to be British at times, and not for the reasons you lot seem to think.


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## perfect11s (20 September 2010)

chestnut cob said:



			^^ This ^^

I also think people forget that the immigrants often do the jobs that the white, British "working class" people refuse to do, preferring instead to spend their lives on benefits claiming there are no jobs out there.  Immigrants end up doing the grotty jobs.

I couldn't care less who comes to the UK provided they work, they pay taxes and they contribute to the economy.  I'd rather the entire country was full of the dreaded Muslims if they work.  Rather them than lazy white British who won't work for a living and expect my taxes to keep them.
		
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 Yes I agree  very few people object to people who want to work but also fit in and yes sadly our wonderfull welfare state has bred a lazy feral underclass... hopfully the economic downturn and a responsable conservtive goverment will derail the benifits gravy train and then the lazy and feckles will have to work or starve


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## AengusOg (20 September 2010)

Perhaps as the number of Muslim people increases, the general morality of the great country which is england will change for the better. At the moment, it seems that the morals of an alley cat prevail.


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## Alec Swan (20 September 2010)

Do you not think that we're going around in circles,  with this,  and the circles are getting ever smaller?

Alec.


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## chestnut cob (20 September 2010)

AengusOg said:



			Perhaps as the number of Muslim people increases, the general morality of the great country which is england will change for the better. At the moment, it seems that the morals of an alley cat prevail.
		
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I was actually wondering this the other day after something I saw on TV made me think about it.  At the moment we have one of the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe, massive problems with alcohol (particularly) and drugs, high crime rates and a huge sector of society who just do not want to work.  Maybe society's morals as a whole will begin to change.


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## EAST KENT (20 September 2010)

Gingerwitch said:



			watch out doggies - we will be eating you next (if we arent all ready lol)

I often wondered what went chow mein?
		
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Steady on GW..make sure ,if you please that pooch is killed in the halal way Chow Chow dogs were for eating by the way ..it means foodfood I believe.


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## Flame_ (20 September 2010)

yorksG said:



			the law allows halal and kosher slaughter for the religeous beliefs of the consumer. Surely if the consumers are not of the religeons which support this form of slaughter, then it is no longer legal?
		
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 So are Britain's animal slaughter laws different depending on Religious beliefs? If true, that in itself is a disgrace in this day in age. The only legal way to slaughter animals ought to be the most humane way based on scientific evidence, then if anyone has a problem eating it because of something a God/a book/their Mum and Dad told them, they should go veggie or get lost.


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## jaypeebee (20 September 2010)

Gingerwitch said:



			All we want is all meat products, supermarkets, airlines, menus especially fast food joints to TELL us the method of slaughter... give us the choice - surely it will help folks whom stricly stick to Halal and Kosher meat too !
		
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You are out of date.  EU MEPs voted on this months ago.  It was passed by large majority.


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## Pacey (20 September 2010)

So glad I'm vegetarian...


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## blackstar (20 September 2010)

This is the saddest and most eye opening thread that I have read on HHO. I am shocked by the levels of ignorance, idiocy, intolerance and islamophobia. The person who was bleating on about EU directives clearly does not understand the particular directive in question or how the EU operates in general.


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## martlin (20 September 2010)

Hello *waves* I am from a ''foreign country'', although I am white. Am I allowed an opinion?
I'll voice it anyway:
I think/believe that Halal (and Kosher) slaughter is wrong and would never eat meat slaughtered in this way. In fact, I refuse to sell my lambs to Muslims alive, I'm happy to supply meat, though - funny enough, they don't want meat 
I would not stand for my own livestock slaughtered in this way, even if Halal abattoir was available locally. As it is, the distance to the nearest Halal abattoir is, in my opinion too great to allow my animals to go there on welfare in transport grounds.

Call me racist or anti-Muslim if you want, but I simply object (be it very strongly) to the slaughter methods on welfare grounds.


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## emma69 (20 September 2010)

Gingerwitch said:



			Gekko - if i were sat reading this post in Australia i would probably  have your opinion, but then your government is pretty tough on imigration and so it should be, and certainly stands up for the rights of the Austrialians...the uk unfortunatly is a weak as a kitten with cat flu.

Do you actually know what the requirements are for immigration in the UK? Thought not. There is a points system, just like other countries (like Canada for example, oh and Australia) and you basically have to have an education (a degree at least in most cases) work experience at a skilled level (minimum wage doesn't get you points), and speak English. You'd be hard pressed to pass the points criteria without those three. We do have freedom of movement within the EU of course - you are just as welcome to go to Spain, Greece, France etc as they are to come here. 

Oh we have not had "as a good Christian you should turn the other cheek" quote just yet but then again "an eye for an eye"

Not sure what you are trying to say here, that vengence is a good thing? How terrible, frankly.

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I do find some attitudes bizarre


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## emma69 (20 September 2010)

Maybe everyone who objects to halal and kosher should just eat pork and shellfish and have done?

A huge amount of halal meat is served in the UK - the chicken in most pizza restaurants for example, or meat in curries etc. It is the case that non believes can eat Halal (or Kosher) without any real issue (the welfare debate aside), so it makes more sense for a business to be able to cater to more people. It is simple economics. 

I do think it makes cost sense, but on the flip side, I can also see why offering a choice of meat (non halal) or veggie would also be acceptable too - and would save on the cost too.


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## Alec Swan (20 September 2010)

blackstar said:



			....... The person who was bleating on about EU directives clearly does not understand the particular directive in question or how the EU operates in general.
		
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Whilst I agree,  without question to the first part of your post,  "The person who was bleating......",  isn't alone.  Whilst it's only my view,  which will carry little weight,  I would tell you that there are very few who actually understand the workings of EU Directives,  and that,  certainly from the point of view of agriculture,  includes those who would administer the pointless "Directives".

Alec.


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## Navalgem (20 September 2010)

slinkyunicorn said:



			at the end of the day it tastes no different
		
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Have you ever had a halal polo?  I tried to be open minded and I tried one, was powdery and only a hint of mint, didn't like it at all, gave it my horse he ate one and refused another......


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## brighthair (20 September 2010)

I've been trying to think how to phrase this. I think CHOICE is great, so in theory, I'm all for halal. But what I object to is that I can't go to KFC and get free range, or a takeaway, or even something simple like ready cooked chicken that's free range. I want choice, and labelling so that I can make an informed choice. I would rather eat free range halal meat, than intensively reared meat. So that's the bit I am mad at - why is Halal so widely available but I can't go and pick up a free range cooked chicken? Id anyone knows then please tell me where - ASDA, Tesco, Sainsburys, Morrisons and Booths don't do them


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## eahotson (20 September 2010)

Brighthair I am with you all the way!


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## EAST KENT (20 September 2010)

But if anyone slaughtered their pet dog in this way you can put a grand on a cruelty case! Mad,totally mad.


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## hollyandivy123 (21 September 2010)

ok after listening to farming today this morning........................did you lot know that all meat from new zealand is halal............................lamb .......................beef etc


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## perfect11s (21 September 2010)

hollyandivy123 said:



			ok after listening to farming today this morning........................did you lot know that all meat from new zealand is halal............................lamb .......................beef etc
		
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 Yes I heard that but im a little confused as the NZ guy said that every thing was stunned first!!! so will just saying a prayer do??? if so I dont see any problem with halal........


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## the_sophies (21 September 2010)

rubysmum said:



			a] you object to the method of slaughter - do you also object to kosher slaughter methods?
		
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yes


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## Honey08 (21 September 2010)

Personally, I'm totally happy eating any meat that has been raised well (not battery) and killed humanely.  I will not eat kosher or halal.

Back to the original topic, as I said I work for BA.  I've been on our work forums today, and it just says that Gate Gourmet is considering the option.

The problem for the airlines is that on quite a few flights over 70% of the passengers request special meals - usually kosher, muslim or hindu, and thats before the veggies.  Its very expensive for them, so they are looking into cheaper methods.  They are ruled by proffit.  Personally I don't think that enough non- halal eating customers would ACTUALLY complain, so it will probably happen.


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## Cinnamontoast (21 September 2010)

slinkyunicorn said:



			I think you will find a lot of 'mass' catering companies already use halal for school meals etc etc It isn't widely publicised because at the end of the day it tastes no different but makes life easier for them in places where there is a high demand for halal. They only have to cook one dish and label the halal ones and everyones happy - simples.

Whether you like it or realise it you have probably been halal for years.

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Yup, Harrow, for example, even though the majority of the residents aren't actually Muslim, probably higher numbers of Jewish people live there.


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## Sanolly (21 September 2010)

orton said:



			I consider myself average BRITISH, now I may get shot down in flames here but...

I am fed up of numerous spineless ninnies that have forgotten that this country is a Christian country and most definately NOT a Muslim country. I am fed up of the so called minority faith dictating their rights for this that and the other. Surely places like BRITISH Airways, and KFC and our schools should remember they are based in Great Britain not some Muslim country. The muslim women are allowed to walk through our streets like black looking Darleks with only the slightest bit of eyes showing, they allowed into our banks, petrol stations etc totally concealed like this, yet can a British christian walk in with a motorbike helmet on, NO!!

Its about time this country remembered we are Great Britain, Christian faith and if the Muslims and other faiths don't like our laws and regulations and the BRITISH way of life then go **** off to a country that is governed and led by that faith.

We already have several major cities where the British white is the minority, for example Birmingham. There are definately now parts where you would be insane if you are white to go at night!

I don't mind other faiths living here, I couldn't give a monkeys what colour they are, just so long as they remember what country they are living in, we are a Christian state with a Queen that is the head of the Church of ENGLAND so abide by our way of life or Naf Off.

Its no wonder there is growing support for the BNP party, people want these politicians etc to stand up for our rights and not cave in and become a Muslim country.
		
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Hear Hear!!


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## Sanolly (21 September 2010)

I have no problem with Moslems, Jews, Hindu's etc. coming into the country and contributing to society. None at all.
What I do have problems with are Sharia courts, the wearing of the Burka (security risk - how do you know who is under one!), and this country's government bending over backwards to inc-operate other religions when I have a hunch that if I as a Pagan went to an Islamic country and asked for the same I would get laughed at at the very least. I think it should be one rule for one and all regardless of what religion you are. 
Who remembers the story about an airline worker being suspended for wearing a crucifix?

At the same time Christianity has a lot to answer for as well, Crusades, Protestant vs Catholic etc. I am 3/4 Irish and the idea that primary school children had to be escorted to school under the guard of riot police is sickening.


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## jaypeebee (21 September 2010)

perfect11s said:



			Yes I heard that but im a little confused as the NZ guy said that every thing was stunned first!!! so will just saying a prayer do??? if so I dont see any problem with halal........
		
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Sadly the hysteria *is* aimed at muslims again.  As someone said earlier, dont let the facts get in the way.  The facts are almost all halal animals in UK, many EU countries, NZ and Australia are stunned before killing.  Jewish kosher method of killing does not stun before killing.  Kosher slaughter is banned in NZ because Jewish community do not agree to have shechita done with pre-stunning, halal is not banned because pre-stunning is accepted by muslims.


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## Limit (21 September 2010)

Next time you are buying Sunday lunch from your supermarket, remember,Newzealand lamb is dispatched the same way.


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## lauradean (21 September 2010)

Is it a Halal option, or Halal for everyone? For example, on Air Canada, you can get, regular, halal, vegetarian, kosher, suitable for diabetics, etc. if you request it when you buy your ticket. If you don't request anything special, you get the regular meal.


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## rubysmum (21 September 2010)

as i work at a school with almost 98% islamic students - many of my colleagues are also muslims - they were horified - albeit politely - when i mentioned hunting & taking my then 9 yr old daughter - they clearly found the practise barbaric - but didnt feel a need to comment on my level of education/my morality or right to live here - food for thought anyone?????
at least at the end of a halal slaughter you can eat what you've killed


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## brighteyes (21 September 2010)

martlin said:



			Hello *waves* I am from a ''foreign country'', although I am white. Am I allowed an opinion?
I'll voice it anyway:
I think/believe that Halal (and Kosher) slaughter is wrong and would never eat meat slaughtered in this way. In fact, I refuse to sell my lambs to Muslims alive, I'm happy to supply meat, though - funny enough, they don't want meat 
I would not stand for my own livestock slaughtered in this way, even if Halal abattoir was available locally. As it is, the distance to the nearest Halal abattoir is, in my opinion too great to allow my animals to go there on welfare in transport grounds.

Call me racist or anti-Muslim if you want, but I simply object (be it very strongly) to the slaughter methods on welfare grounds.
		
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I won't call you anything, since I agree purely on welfare grounds. I think it's hilarious, though, that people think religion shouldn't be brought into this.  It's chuffing religion dictating the halal slaughter process in the first place, and either people are conveniently hiding behind it or they actually believe it's humane.  Either way, to me it's nothing short of barbaric, and excuse me if I feel that the people who follow this nonsense (whatever race, colour or creed they may be) are nothing more than as barbaric as the process itself.

For many years I haven't eaten takeaway/restuarant/supermarket meat, because I wised-up a long time ago, and stopped trusting the lack of information on it.

Why don't vets come and halal slaughter your horse if it's that quick and humane?  Would you choose it over the gun or the injection and would you stay with your horse while it was done? Thought not...


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## Doncella (21 September 2010)

brighteyes said:



			I won't call you anything, since I agree purely on welfare grounds. I think it's hilarious, though, that people think religion shouldn't be brought into this.  It's chuffing religion dictating the halal slaughter process in the first place, and either people are conveniently hiding behind it or they actually believe it's humane.  Either way, to me it's nothing short of barbaric, and excuse me if I feel that the people who follow this nonsense (whatever race, colour or creed they may be) are nothing more than as barbaric as the process itself.

For many years I haven't eaten takeaway/restuarant/supermarket meat, because I wised-up a long time ago, and stopped trusting the lack of information on it.

Why don't vets come and halal slaughter your horse if it's that quick and humane?  Would you choose it over the gun or the injection and would you stay with your horse while it was done? Thought not...
		
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Don't forget to say a little prayer because that makes it all alright then.
Did anyone hear the patronising justification for halal slaughter on the Jeremy Vine show?


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## saturdaygirl (21 September 2010)

Wow what a lot of racist and (just as annoying) ill-informed people here!

The Qur'an states that an animal must be ALIVE prior to slaughter. This can lead to difference in interpretation but; on the whole much of the Halal meat in the UK IS stunned prior to slaughter; as a stunned animal is technically alive. Indeed in 2004 (can't find anythign more recent) 90% of Halal meat was pre-stunned (Meat Hygiene Service.) 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2010/sep/20/halal-meat-the-truth is very interesting. On the subject of Kosher meat; Judaism in different in that it states animals must be UNINJURED which means there is never any pre-stunning.


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## YorksG (21 September 2010)

If pre-stunning was the norm in halal slaughter I would not be worried about it, however as I stated earlier I live in a part of the country where the Imams forbid the pre-stunning of animals for slaughter. This is part of a cultural issue, as it is open to interpretation by the religeous leaders in the area. As far as I am aware no kosher meat is ever pre-stunned. The best answer is indeed to eat pork when eating out.


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## YorksG (21 September 2010)

saturdaygirl said:



			Wow what a lot of racist and (just as annoying) ill-informed people here!

The Qur'an states that an animal must be ALIVE prior to slaughter. This can lead to difference in interpretation but; on the whole much of the Halal meat in the UK IS stunned prior to slaughter; as a stunned animal is technically alive. Indeed in 2004 (can't find anythign more recent) 90% of Halal meat was pre-stunned (Meat Hygiene Service.) 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2010/sep/20/halal-meat-the-truth is very interesting. On the subject of Kosher meat; Judaism in different in that it states animals must be UNINJURED which means there is never any pre-stunning.
		
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Surely all animals are alive prior to slaughter, how the heck would you slaughter a dead one?
The Koran states that the animal must be healthy, which in some cases is interpretad as being fully consious, therefore not pre stunned, did some one mention ill-informed?


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## brighteyes (22 September 2010)

Doncella said:



			Don't forget to say a little prayer because that makes it all alright then.
Did anyone hear the patronising justification for halal slaughter on the Jeremy Vine show?
		
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I did.  Deluded butcher, made me squirm with his patronising smugness.


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## perfect11s (22 September 2010)

saturdaygirl said:



			Wow what a lot of racist and (just as annoying) ill-informed people here!

The Qur'an states that an animal must be ALIVE prior to slaughter. This can lead to difference in interpretation but; on the whole much of the Halal meat in the UK IS stunned prior to slaughter; as a stunned animal is technically alive. Indeed in 2004 (can't find anythign more recent) 90% of Halal meat was pre-stunned (Meat Hygiene Service.) 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2010/sep/20/halal-meat-the-truth is very interesting. On the subject of Kosher meat; Judaism in different in that it states animals must be UNINJURED which means there is never any pre-stunning.
		
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 how is it racist ...objecting to the  babaric practices of a medeival religion...race is colour or origin
not some stupid belief ....my  god's  better than yours nonsense.....


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## mon (22 September 2010)

more and more halal meat is pre stunned i am led to believe, but most farmers still dislike theidea of it, but whilst it is still law what can we do? how can they ban hunting and turn a blind eye to wholesale religious slaughter?


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## eahotson (22 September 2010)

Islam is not in itself any more of a medieval religion than Christianity and Judiasm.They all come from the same root.The way its interpreted and used is frquently barbaric I agree BUT we used to burn people to death over differences in religion.People were  put to death for simply wanting to read the bible in their own language.Inhumanity to women?? Look at the witch hunts!It wasn't that long ago.Look at the people in Northern Ireland screaming at young children simply for trying to get to a school and having to go through the wrong area.As for the slaughter of animals.Well cutting an animals throat doesn't sound nice, but neither does electrocuting or any of the other methods.The only people, in my opinion, who have a truly clear conscience are the vegans.


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## Honey08 (22 September 2010)

lauradean said:



			Is it a Halal option, or Halal for everyone? For example, on Air Canada, you can get, regular, halal, vegetarian, kosher, suitable for diabetics, etc. if you request it when you buy your ticket. If you don't request anything special, you get the regular meal.
		
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Its the same on BA at the moment.  There are various special meals that you can pre order, from veg to children's meals to kosher etc.  If you don't request it you get a normal meal.  The problem is, that on many routes there are far more special meals ordered.  For instance I did an India a couple of weeks ago, with 120 economy passengers, and over 90 of them had ordered special meals.  Another typical route that is like this is Israel.  So the airline is coming to the conclusion that it would be cheaper to have them all special meals, and the non-special meals (current) to be ordered.  The other factor is that the countries with the most ordered special meals are often the highest yeilding routes - India is one of the biggest growing economies...  

Air Canada is likely to follow, as Canada is another route with an enormous number of special meals (due to many indian passengers).


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## Flame_ (22 September 2010)

mon said:



			more and more halal meat is pre stunned i am led to believe, but most farmers still dislike theidea of it, but whilst it is still law what can we do? how can they ban hunting and turn a blind eye to wholesale religious slaughter?
		
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This is exactly my line of thought. Maybe when the government wanted to bring in the hunting ban the pros took the wrong approach. If they had said "God only lets us kill foxes with dogs but not shotguns", they'd have let it carry on.


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## Andalusianlover (22 September 2010)

I dont agree with the Halal way of animal slaughter one little bit, if all BA meals will be Halal only, then I'd rather fly with another airline.


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## EAST KENT (22 September 2010)

If an animal is pre-stunned the slaughter method is no different than the UK one,after all it is the bleeding out that stops the  heart function,not the stunning.


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## riding_high (22 September 2010)

i haven't read every reply so apologies if i repeat anything!

when i go out to resturants or friends places i say i'm a veggie as it's easier to explain than going through the whole debate of me wanting to know where my meat comes from. i don't like the idea of slaughter at all, that's just me and i also accept that it happens..........my OH and kids all eat meat and love it!

on the side of people saying about muslim religion being this and that, what about Jehovah witnesses? they refuse life saving treatment on the grounds of their religion, they don't accept blood transfusions.
my son was in special care when he was born and half the staff were muslim, other half either catholic or christians. the main doctor looking after my son was a muslim and if it hadn't been her quick thinking then my son wouldn't be here now. so i have absolutely no problems sharing a country with ANY other religion/race.

what does get to me though is that there are alot of people who have come to this country to get away from things in their own country, whether it be way of life or something else, but most then try to turn this country into the one they have left, if their country was so useless/nasty/worthless then why try to replicate it over here.

if they really want to replicate their old way of life in a new country then what was the point in them leaving in the first place?


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## 3DE (22 September 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			If an animal is pre-stunned the slaughter method is no different than the UK one,after all it is the bleeding out that stops the  heart function,not the stunning.
		
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Actually that is not strictly true. The best abbertoirs stun the animal, shoot it through the head with a bolt then hang it and slit the throat. The blood letting is to stop the meat spoiling, not to kill the animal. Some abertoirs also rode the bolt hole to ensure brain death.


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## EAST KENT (22 September 2010)

Inky_and_Sunny said:



			Actually that is not strictly true. The best abbertoirs stun the animal, shoot it through the head with a bolt then hang it and slit the throat. The blood letting is to stop the meat spoiling, not to kill the animal. Some abertoirs also rode the bolt hole to ensure brain death.
		
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But it is the bleeding out that kills,done for meat quality reasons as well,some of the F@M animals just shot did`nt die,sadly,very quickly..think the roding bit was the essential bit as well.


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## perfect11s (22 September 2010)

eahotson said:



			Islam is not in itself any more of a medieval religion than Christianity and Judiasm.They all come from the same root.The way its interpreted and used is frquently barbaric I agree BUT we used to burn people to death over differences in religion.People were  put to death for simply wanting to read the bible in their own language.Inhumanity to women?? Look at the witch hunts!It wasn't that long ago.Look at the people in Northern Ireland screaming at young children simply for trying to get to a school and having to go through the wrong area.As for the slaughter of animals.Well cutting an animals throat doesn't sound nice, but neither does electrocuting or any of the other methods.The only people, in my opinion, who have a truly clear conscience are the vegans.
		
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 yes im not saying any religion is perfect far from it   but at least christanty has moved on with the new testament  where as the koran is the same old same old!! and is interpreted literally by far too many of its followers who never question or allow it to be reinterperated ...


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## 3DE (22 September 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			But it is the bleeding out that kills,done for meat quality reasons as well,some of the F@M animals just shot did`nt die,sadly,very quickly..think the roding bit was the essential bit as well.
		
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No it isn't. Did you actually read my post before you quoted me? The animals are bolted through the brain  so are actually brain dead (and in some abertoirs a rod is pushed through the hole to ensure it) before their throats are slit.

Edit - I am basing this on my experience when working in a abertoir, not of what I have read off google...


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## jaypeebee (22 September 2010)

perfect11s said:



			yes im not saying any religion is perfect far from it   but at least christanty has moved on with the new testament  where as the koran is the same old same old!! and is interpreted literally by far too many of its followers who never question or allow it to be reinterperated ...
		
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On the contrary.  I think most normal every day Muslims are continually questioning what they are doing or if they are interpreting the teachings in the right way.  There are wild differences between fundementalists and regular Muslims.  Just like in Christianity there are huge differences between regular CofE followers and some of the spinoff churches which still come under umbrella of Christianity even though they are so far removed from what regular Christians do.  I think you will find that many of the unsettled are the children and grandchildren of the original immigrants.  Many of this younger generations can feel displaced.  They know they are British because they were born in Britain but they feel a need to cling to roots.  The first generation immigrants are quite different from later generations as they chose to come to Britain so quietly continued their lives trying to keep out of public glare.  Some of the younger generations, especially those who do not travel back to their parents homeland regularly, are not able to accept the diversity of cultures, the struggles that go on in homelands along with the differences and compromises their parents had to make when they came to Britain.  The vast majority of Muslims including younger generations are law abiding citizens who cause little to no problem, just as the vast majority of Christian people and their younger generations cause no problems in society.  Sadly there are always a small minority in all religions who make a bad name for the whole religion.

The government should stand by what they decide as a law.  If animals must be stunned before killing then that should be the way it is for all.  If that is the law of the land then so it should be.  Most Muslims are keen to fit in and so do not have problem with animals being stunned before slaughter.  This law if it was blanket would affect Jews much more but would only affect small pockets of Muslims and then only for short time as each Imam would have to adapt their view on teachings to comply with law.  Those who object loudly rarely speak for majority.


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## ucmeicu (23 September 2010)

Rubbish, good muslims don't want to integrate. Did you know they have over 85 sharia courts in this country already, our courts are not good enough? Having seen Anjem Choudary burning the USA flag outside the US embassy on 9/11 and then seeing the videos of the protests against the pope I think as important as animal welfare is, the creeping islamification going on in this country is even more worrying.. look up M.A.C. and M.D.L. and educate yourselves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awSd-Pno1rY&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNZQ5D8IwfI


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## perfect11s (23 September 2010)

jaypeebee said:



			On the contrary.  I think most normal every day Muslims are continually questioning what they are doing or if they are interpreting the teachings in the right way.  There are wild differences between fundementalists and regular Muslims.  Just like in Christianity there are huge differences between regular CofE followers and some of the spinoff churches which still come under umbrella of Christianity even though they are so far removed from what regular Christians do.  I think you will find that many of the unsettled are the children and grandchildren of the original immigrants.  Many of this younger generations can feel displaced.  They know they are British because they were born in Britain but they feel a need to cling to roots.  The first generation immigrants are quite different from later generations as they chose to come to Britain so quietly continued their lives trying to keep out of public glare.  Some of the younger generations, especially those who do not travel back to their parents homeland regularly, are not able to accept the diversity of cultures, the struggles that go on in homelands along with the differences and compromises their parents had to make when they came to Britain.  The vast majority of Muslims including younger generations are law abiding citizens who cause little to no problem, just as the vast majority of Christian people and their younger generations cause no problems in society.  Sadly there are always a small minority in all religions who make a bad name for the whole religion.

The government should stand by what they decide as a law.  If animals must be stunned before killing then that should be the way it is for all.  If that is the law of the land then so it should be.  Most Muslims are keen to fit in and so do not have problem with animals being stunned before slaughter.  This law if it was blanket would affect Jews much more but would only affect small pockets of Muslims and then only for short time as each Imam would have to adapt their view on teachings to comply with law.  Those who object loudly rarely speak for majority.
		
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 Sadly they(muslims) have a totaly different outlook, the radical ones are on a crusade against western socicity and  its values and the moderate ones go along with that agenda to a greater or lesser extent for all sorts of reasons...


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## eahotson (23 September 2010)

Muslims (a few as they didn't get much press to be honest) were the only ones to protest about the Pope????


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## Tinkerbee (23 September 2010)

ucmeicu said:



			Rubbish, good muslims don't want to integrate. Did you know they have over 85 sharia courts in this country already, our courts are not good enough? Having seen Anjem Choudary burning the USA flag outside the US embassy on 9/11 and then seeing the videos of the protests against the pope I think as important as animal welfare is, the creeping islamification going on in this country is even more worrying.. look up M.A.C. and M.D.L. and educate yourselves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awSd-Pno1rY&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNZQ5D8IwfI

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You know, its bit like those "well hard, straight" men who get all arsey about gays. If you're so secure in your sexuality/faith why the paranoia and fear?



Bugger creeping Islamification. There is rampant Athiestisation (word??!) but that's not as much fun to bleat about, is it?

I went to an International School abroad for 4 years and went in and came back a Christian, despite being surrounded by Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists and having every Poya day off and marking every religious festival.  Grow up and get a grip!
Muppets.

Also, what does M.A.C makeup have to do with anything?


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## BBH (23 September 2010)

Tinkerbee said:



			You know, its bit like those "well hard, straight" men who get all arsey about gays. If you're so secure in your sexuality/faith why the paranoia and fear?



Bugger creeping Islamification. There is rampant Athiestisation (word??!) but that's not as much fun to bleat about, is it?

I went to an International School abroad for 4 years and went in and came back a Christian, despite being surrounded by Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists and having every Poya day off and marking every religious festival.  Grow up and get a grip!
Muppets.

Also, what does M.A.C makeup have to do with anything?
		
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Why do you have to be insulting to those who have different views to yours. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are muppets. Everyone has different reasons for believing what they do. Perhaps your views would be understood more if you tried to persuade rather than vilify. Just a thought.


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## Tinkerbee (23 September 2010)

LHS said:



			Why do you have to be insulting to those who have different views to yours. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are muppets. Everyone has different reasons for believing what they do. Perhaps your views would be understood more if you tried to persuade rather than vilify. Just a thought.
		
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Probably...and I did edit it a few times and perhaps should have edited it more. I'm not very good at persuading such people I'm afraid, they are such polar opposites to what I have been brought up with so at times, such views seem only capable of coming from someone not all there.

Eta- Also, I thought "muppet" was a fairly soft insult? Possibly not.


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## badattitude (23 September 2010)

QR. This has been a very interesting debate. I thought the point made by EAST KENT about other cultures trying to recreate their home society in Great Britain a very good one because the reverserse is almost impossible. The west have failed to really influence the laws in the middle east especially  and they have no patient there with westerners who do not observe their rules. Even in the USA, where I have lived in the past, when you take your residency vows, you must swear to be an American first. Only after that are you allowed to be a black/white/red/muslim/protestant/catholic/baptist or any other race or creed that might be considered secular. I find it hard to understand why a British Company feels the need to alienate so many of the people in its own country. perhaps they would be better off if they offered less meal choices. One meat choice and one vegitarian (both prepared 'kosher' which i do not think anyone objects to) would enable everyone to eat something. Those wanting halal would be obliged to take the vegitarian option or fly with their own national airline who obviously should look after their own nationals as a priority. 
  As for the method of slaughtering for halal, it is barbaric in a great many places. perhaps animals are stunned first in this country but in many others they are not. What is too stop BA from buying their meat abroad where the source amd manner of slaughter cannot be verified?


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## 3DE (23 September 2010)

badattitude said:



			both prepared 'kosher' which i do not think anyone objects to
		
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Actually Kosher is worse than Halal. Halal does, it seem allow for stunning but Kosher requires no stunning or pain relief prior to having their throats' slit.


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## badattitude (23 September 2010)

Inky_and_Sunny said:



			Actually Kosher is worse than Halal. Halal does, it seem allow for stunning but Kosher requires no stunning or pain relief prior to having their throats' slit.
		
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I do apologise. I believed that koshewr food was prepared by not mixing meat and dairy and I did not realise the killing of the animal was part of the belief.


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## DragonSlayer (23 September 2010)

Can't believe the ignorance from some people of this thread...just a few facts here for those who do NOT know...

Poultry and meat must be slaughtered under strict guidelines called "Shechita." This means the animals are slaughtered without pain. Only those who are trained and qualified are allowed to slaughter kosher animals. 

According to the Torah (also known as the five books of Moses, the Old Testament, or the Pentateuch) cloven hoofed, cud-chewing mammals are kosher. Deer, sheep and goats, for example are all kosher, while pig and rabbit, for example, are not.

This all of course, relates to Jewish law. Like it or not, it has happened for thousands of years, and will no doubt continue.

We ARE a multi-cultural society, accept it, or deny it....I know what I'm doing in carrying on with my life....

Don't eat meat. THAT is the simplest way. Unfortunately, there are MANY people who don't give a damn how an animal is slaughtered. As long as they get their steak and chips....then thats just dandy....

Just remember, THIS way was considered the BEST way. I read somewhere that by all accounts the blood pressure drops instantly and therefore shuts the brain down immediately, hence believing that it is indeed a humane way....BUT I'm not a vet, so if a vet could confirm this, that would be good...

The sad fact is - we won't ever agree on how to kill one of God's creatures.


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## suzysparkle (23 September 2010)

I cannot see how slitting the throat can be as instant as stunning. If I had to choose it myself, or for one of my animals, there would be no question.
You see it done on live TV and stunning is totally instant. The slitting is done afterwards by which time the animal knows nothing.
I believe that religion should have no say in the way animals are slaughtered - slaughter method should be done in the quickest and most humane way on welfare grounds. The way animals are raised is of more importance, and I personally only buy from the butcher which is free range. The odd time I buy from the supermarket it's free range.
Frankly, I think all meat supplied in this country should be slaughtered to whatever standard the UK sets (which is very high). If certain religions want LESSER standards then tough. You eat what's provided or eat veggie!!!!! If you don't agree then go live somewhere else. Why the **** should WE eat veggie to avoid Halal or Kosher? And why the **** should we order veggie on UK BASED flights? We provide prayer rooms at LHR / LGW etc isn't that enough? Even the toilets are adapted. 
Out of interest I love curry, but, I make them myself with free range meat slaughtered to UK standard. If you do a bit of googling, and take the time, you can make as good as carry-out but healthier. And I love doing it! I live next to a farm and they (the animals) all go for meat but they have a good life. I owe it to them to support good slaughter as well.
I believe that if you want to live in the UK, you have to abide by UK rules on animal slaughter. There should be NO exception.
I also believe that religion, closely followed by money, is the root of most evil. Funnily, gate gourtmet's possible decision is based on money, and the reason behind that whole decison, is religion. Religion (from my point of view) has no place if it means animals suffer more. I know there are far more pressing animal welfare issues out there, but, other than money or fashion most are due to ignorance or abuse and this is not one of them.
Slaughter method should, without question, be the quickest and most humane method available in that country.


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## eahotson (24 September 2010)

Prayer rooms  are they not provided for/useable for Christians as well? Adapted toilets, I would have thought they are for handicapped people of all races religion.


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## 3DE (24 September 2010)

There is a Muslim medical student where I work and she eats non-halal meat - apparantly the teaching state if there is no other option you will not be looked upon badly by Allah as everyone must eat (I live in one of the most rural, remote areas in Scotland).

As someone mentioned earlier if we don't like it go for the veggie option. I'd say why can't the people with religious issues do that? Why cater for the minority exclusively? It's getting silly


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## Mithras (24 September 2010)

My father was a butcher.  Before he got his own chain of butchers shops up and running he was employed as a butcher and slaughterman for quite a few years.  He was one of the few people in the UK to contract leptospirosis (Weil's Disease) and survive from accidentally swallowing some of the blood of a pig which had not been successfully stunned during the slaughter process.  Anyway, I remember he and his work colleagues would often debate the merits and demerits of various slaughter processes and they took pride in doing it the most correct, least distressful way to the beast.  They were not enamoured with Muslim methods of slaughter one little bit.  There is a reason we have evolved other methods of slaughter in this country which are more efficient and less cruel than less advanced countries.

I fly BA quite often and instead of no longer doing so, I will refuse to order a vegetarian option (I'm not fond of vegetables) but instead take the meat option, refuse to eat it and complain, at length, to the inflight staff.  I would rather BA removed the meals option if they cannot afford to use quality British sources of meat for their meals.  I am uncomfortable with eating halal meat to the point that I cannot bring myself to eat it.  I never eat takeways and I only eat meat once or twice a week.  I only eat meat in quality restaurants and even then often send it back for not being of good enough quality.  The thought of eating halal slaughtered meat makes me feel sick.

BA might think they will save money on using only halal meat but they have not reckoned on the nightmare scenario of dealing with the complaints of the fussy British female eater.  I would rather they reduced the prices and didn't serve meals at all if thats all they can provide.


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## eahotson (24 September 2010)

Mithras yours is the most intersting and thought provoking post!


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## Mithras (24 September 2010)

I should also add that the majority of slaughtermen in this country take pride in their work and respect that the animals should suffer as little as possible (it is the bad ones that get into the news) and my father was adamant that rodding was the only surefire way to ensure the beast was truly unaware and suffered least distress during the slaughter process.  The beasts do know shortly before their end that they are going to die, and that is when they suffer a high level of distress.  As my father found out, stunning on its own is not always reliable (the pig that infected him struggled to get free after missing both being stunned and bolted).  

You will find that in a lot of cultures which still hunt and then eat what they kill, that the animal is revered for its sacrifice in allowing humans to eat, and they kill in the most respectful and therefore least distressing way that they have available to them.  This is certainly the case amongst the Innuit and the Faroese Grindalaup (both of which I have visited).  You cannot help but be impressed by genuine hunters afinity with their prey.  What I think irks me most about halal and kosher methods of slaugther is that it is the religious feelings of humans that are put to the forefront, rather than reducing the suffering of the beast as much as possible, and that the most modern, painfree, efficient methods are avaiable but not used.

As a lawyer, I also have little truck with the supposedly fashionable view that Sharia law is a great legal system.  (in actual fact few countries other than Saudi Arabia and Iran have pure Shaira law and Islamic countries usually mix it with religious law).  Sharia law and religious law provide basic moral codes which struggle to adapt to modern practices and therefore modernise.  In many ways, they hold back country's development.  How do they do so?  By enshrining outdated principles and preventing them from being changed, by their failure to embody judicial precedent (judge-made law), by using non or inadquately legally qualified judges, by having a poor appeals process, poor representation of defendents, by permitting corruption, by struggling to deal with even slightly advanced concepts of commerce and trade.  The "west" OTOH has common and civil law based systems - in Rome 2500 years ago, the legal system was so advanced that most of its basic principles still make sense today and that is why they were copied by an emerging British society.  Sharia and Islamic law on the other hand is even more ancient, it is badly thought out and struggles to encompass new principles necessary for modernisation.  It is really only suited to a certain kind of geographically isolated agrarian society with little commerce or trade.

I'm afraid I view having halal choices imposed on me as a backwards, retrograde step that will do no-one any good, least of all the beasts who are to be slaughtered (and isn't it remarkable how quiet the "antis" are on such issues?)


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## eahotson (24 September 2010)

Another excellent post Mithras.I do think that when Halal/kosher laws were introduced it was in part on humanitarian grounds.People were probably slaughtering animals in all sortsof ways and one of the Kosher bits say that you should not eat of the living, for very good reasons.Halal/Kosher was intended to standardize methods of slaughter and possibly the Imam/Rabbi presence was meant to ensure that things were done according to law.It probably didn't always work but it was an effort and in areas that don't have access to stunners etc. possibly the best.You do make a very good case for advancement though and i for one, in future will be questioning the meat I get.
Personally I am not a fan of sharia law but in this country at least, people have a choice whether they go down that path or not, so so long as it doesn't contravene British law and is a free choice people should have the freedom to persue it.
I think, now, on balance, we should be questioning the humanity of the Kosher/Halal slaughter methods.I just did not like this post when at times it seemed as rascism dressed up as animal rights.


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## suzysparkle (24 September 2010)

eahotson said:



			Prayer rooms  are they not provided for/useable for Christians as well? Adapted toilets, I would have thought they are for handicapped people of all races religion.
		
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I mean the toilets with the special hose things on them!


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## Doncella (24 September 2010)

eahotson said:



			Mithras yours is the most intersting and thought provoking post!
		
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I second this.


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## Pampera (24 September 2010)

Try reading this:

http://www.farmersguardian.com/home...ed-of-unbearable-cruelty-closes/33811.article

'stunning' in this case was just a method of inflicting more pain and suffering.


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## SirenaXVI (24 September 2010)

martlin said:



			Hello *waves* I am from a ''foreign country'', although I am white. Am I allowed an opinion?
I'll voice it anyway:
I think/believe that Halal (and Kosher) slaughter is wrong and would never eat meat slaughtered in this way. In fact, I refuse to sell my lambs to Muslims alive, I'm happy to supply meat, though - funny enough, they don't want meat 
I would not stand for my own livestock slaughtered in this way, even if Halal abattoir was available locally. As it is, the distance to the nearest Halal abattoir is, in my opinion too great to allow my animals to go there on welfare in transport grounds.

Call me racist or anti-Muslim if you want, but I simply object (be it very strongly) to the slaughter methods on welfare grounds.
		
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I completely agree, I don't give a monkeys whatsit about Islam, Judaism or Christianity, it is the methods used in the slaughter of Halal and Kosher meat that I object to. I would never knowingly eat meat that has been slaughtered in this way, it is inhumane and barbaric.

Interestingly, when talking to my OH about this, he initially said "so what?" then, when I explained the difference in the slaughter methods he agreed it is unacceptable. 

Someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I understood that not all Halal/Kosher is unstunned?  If this is indeed the case, then I see no reason whatsover to allow anyone to slaughter animals without stunning them first.

I also think that there is a lot of racism in this thread which I do not condone.  For me this is purely a welfare problem, nothing more, nothing less.


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## Alec Swan (24 September 2010)

Pampera,

I previously read the report in the FG,  and I've seen the film footage.  The conditions at the slaughter house mentioned were an absolute disgrace,  and were such that no competent slaughter-man would ever countenance such behaviour,  and I speak from experience.

WHERE I would like to know,  were the SVS and the MHS?  How could these licensed operatives have allowed such conduct?  We'll never know the answer to that!

I can assure you that those involved in the process of slaughter,  generally,  abide by the Slaughter-man's Creed,  and here it is.......

"Thine is the task of blood
Discharge thy task with mercy
Let thy victim feel no pain
Let sudden blow bring death
Such death as thou thyself would ask".
anon.

It was written,  I believe,  in the 17th. century.  It's the yardstick by which most competent men operate.  You have to understand that in every abattoir which I know of,  if such behaviour were witnessed then the bulk of the staff would round on the guilty party,  long before it reached the company management,  and such appalling cruelty would not be tolerated.  That the abattoir,  which you've highlighted,  has received press coverage,  would be an embarrassment to all skilled tradesmen.

Amongst some of the sensible responses on this thread,  I've also read a load of unmitigated rubbish.  Theorised rubbish,  which contributes nothing towards serious debate.  

From a personal viewpoint,  I would always prefer that an animal be stunned,  prior to being bled.  In the case of pigs,  it's vital,  as without it,  then a state of barbarism is in place.  In the case of animals which are killed under a religious edict,  then with a skilled operator,  once the carotid artery and the jugular vein are severed,  then an unconscious state is achieved in a couple of seconds,  if that.

I have,  in emergencies,  killed standing animals with a knife.  The collapse has been virtually instant.  I farm and keep livestock,  and now I keep a humane killer in my car at all times,  even though it only gets used two,  or three times a year.

I have never yet met a slaughter-man who was anything other than a skilled,  competent and committed tradesman.  Don't tar everybody with the same brush, please.

Alec.


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## Luci07 (24 September 2010)

Very interesting and thought provoking thread. I have seen strong arguments for and against Halal meat/slaughtering but for me, what I really resent is that the real truth of this is that the people who are using it are doing it to save money. Its NOT so muslims can eat freely and I bitterly resent the strong inference that these companies are using the money for religous reasons - and this is a christian country which means that argument is even more ridicolous - and of course, a practising Sikh can't actually eat Halal meat so this is poor for them too.

I have an excellent local butcher, I check when I shop in supermarkets to ease my conscience, avoid KFC for all the reasons mentioned previously but (stupidly) hadn't really thought about BA/Ascot/Twickenham (doh...!). I will be voting with my feet - it will be veggie options from now on.


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## brighteyes (24 September 2010)

Fair comment Alec, but please stoppit with the pompous twit tone.  We don't all believe everything we read (in its entirity at any rate) and some of us have a little working knowledge of animal despatch. 

My issue is with proper treatment of animals and I don't care who is dishing out the coup de grâce, if they are not doing it as quickly and humanely as possible I'll have a voice on it.  

Rotten apples like those in the article deserve punishment for their acts.  That others are allowed to operate in a possibly similar inhumane manner, untouchable because of their religion, then we are well and truly stuffed.  That is why there is an uproar. It IS to do with religion and the religion card seems to be the free pass out of trouble for non-British in this country.


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## perfect11s (25 September 2010)

brighteyes said:



			Fair comment Alec, but please stoppit with the pompous twit tone.  We don't all believe everything we read (in its entirity at any rate) and some of us have a little working knowledge of animal despatch. 

My issue is with proper treatment of animals and I don't care who is dishing out the coup de grâce, if they are not doing it as quickly and humanely as possible I'll have a voice on it.  

Rotten apples like those in the article deserve punishment for their acts.  That others are allowed to operate in a possibly similar inhumane manner, untouchable because of their religion, then we are well and truly stuffed.  That is why there is an uproar. It IS to do with religion and the religion card seems to be the free pass out of trouble for non-British in this country.
		
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 Yes I agree  however  I do think people are begining to realise what is at stake  and the mistakes that being a very tolerant and generous people has caused for us when people from  oppressive or violent regimes or religions come here,  some fit in,  others are lost without  ridgid religious or secular rule and then another group  see our
easy going nature as weakness and a oppertunity to take over and impose their agender  ...we realy do need to make people  intergrate and fit in with our laws and values a little bit more........ controling halal  is just one way of saying what is or is'nt accetable to us and  will gain us respect in the end....


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## eahotson (25 September 2010)

I liked Alec Swans post and agree with many points made.


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## Alec Swan (25 September 2010)

brighteyes,

As well as being a "Pompous Twit",  I'm also an arrogant,  bombastic,  self centred,  self opinionated and an all-round general know-all.  Add to that,  that I'm wealthy and considered by most to be incredibly good looking,  and your comment would be entirely correct.  It's only my horses and dogs,  who seem to accept me for what I am!

Actually,  I agree with your post,  in its entirety,  which may surprise you.  When I've been in the Middle East,  I've always been acutely conscious of not causing offence,  and also equally conscious of the fact that I have lived there,  under THEIR conditions,  laws and religious beliefs.  It can't be right that we will bend,  generally distort,  or even break any of our laws,  simply to accommodate those of different faiths.

When I've lived in foreign lands,  I've been bound by their conditions of entry.  It's a great shame that we don't insist upon a reciprocal adherence.  

Mithras,  excellent posts.

Alec.


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## ucmeicu (25 September 2010)

having spoken to someone yesterday who has seen animals slaughtered for halal meat in this country, they were walked into a crate which was then turned upside down so the animals were on their backs. The animals were struggling for some time whilst being blessed?  Then their throats were cut. In cows they are cut at the base of the neck. We live in England, halal methods are allowed for religious reasons. That meat should be for muslims only. Animals should not suffer and that meat then sold to people of other religions unknowingly.


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## Saucisson (25 September 2010)

Alec Swan said:



			Add to that,  that I'm wealthy and considered by most to be incredibly good looking,  and your comment would be entirely correct.
		
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Hey Alec Swan, will you be my boyfriend?   (OH won't mind, he could do with a rest)

Personally, I don't have a very big objection to halal or kosha if done respectfully and correctly.  I'm far more concerned with the quality of life beforehand.

When I lived in the Middle East I did used to be a bit peturbed by the big boats coming over from Australia/New Zealand with live animals to be slaughtered at destination.  I could be wrong but I bet the conditions on the ships aren't something for the squeamish


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## EAST KENT (25 September 2010)

The Ozzie "sheep ships" are a disgrace to anyone with any humanity at all.They are almost top heavy ,there are so many tiers,all stuffed with sheep off the outback. Deadies ..and there are many of them,are just thrown overboard to the sharks,who not being daft follow this food source the whole journey.  At the end of their journey of Hell they are killed by throat slitting.How any Ozzie farmer who does this to his sheep can sleep at night defeats me..it`s an utterly vile trade for Australia to be ashamed of.


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## Doncella (25 September 2010)

Alec Swan said:



			brighteyes,

As well as being a "Pompous Twit",  I'm also an arrogant,  bombastic,  self centred,  self opinionated and an all-round general know-all.  Add to that,  that I'm wealthy and considered by most to be incredibly good looking,  and your comment would be entirely correct.  It's only my horses and dogs,  who seem to accept me for what I am!

Actually,  I agree with your post,  in its entirety,  which may surprise you.  When I've been in the Middle East,  I've always been acutely conscious of not causing offence,  and also equally conscious of the fact that I have lived there,  under THEIR conditions,  laws and religious beliefs.  It can't be right that we will bend,  generally distort,  or even break any of our laws,  simply to accommodate those of different faiths.

When I've lived in foreign lands,  I've been bound by their conditions of entry.  It's a great shame that we don't insist upon a reciprocal adherence.  

Mithras,  excellent posts.

Alec.
		
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Another excellent post.


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## brighteyes (25 September 2010)

I think Mithras has excelled herself with her posts, too. We need a 'Like' button!


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## Honey08 (25 September 2010)

I fly BA quite often and instead of no longer doing so, I will refuse to order a vegetarian option (I'm not fond of vegetables) but instead take the meat option, refuse to eat it and *complain, at length, to the inflight staff*.  I would rather BA removed the meals option if they cannot afford to use quality British sources of meat for their meals.  I am uncomfortable with eating halal meat to the point that I cannot bring myself to eat it.  I never eat takeways and I only eat meat once or twice a week.  I only eat meat in quality restaurants and even then often send it back for not being of good enough quality.  The thought of eating halal slaughtered meat makes me feel sick.

*BA might think they will save money on using only halal meat but they have not reckoned on the nightmare scenario of dealing with the complaints of the fussy British female eater.  I would rather they reduced the prices and didn't serve meals at all if thats all they can provide.[/QUOTE]*


As someone who is cabin staff, could you tell me what you expect me to do at 40,000 feet!  The only way to complain is before - write to them and tell them what you think and that yuo won't be flying BA.  Then they may sort out the problem.

As for dealing with the nightmare scenarios, they already have them onboard already with people who won't eat non-halal meals.  Its the cabin crew on the day that get the grief, and they're not the ones that have made the decisions!  It won't change anything, just make the front line staff miserable.  I'm mad enough that the meals will be halal myself - my blinkin crew meal will be too, so no food for me on a ten hour flight!


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## suzysparkle (25 September 2010)

Honey08 said:



			I fly BA quite often and instead of no longer doing so, I will refuse to order a vegetarian option (I'm not fond of vegetables) but instead take the meat option, refuse to eat it and *complain, at length, to the inflight staff*.  I would rather BA removed the meals option if they cannot afford to use quality British sources of meat for their meals.  I am uncomfortable with eating halal meat to the point that I cannot bring myself to eat it.  I never eat takeways and I only eat meat once or twice a week.  I only eat meat in quality restaurants and even then often send it back for not being of good enough quality.  The thought of eating halal slaughtered meat makes me feel sick.

*BA might think they will save money on using only halal meat but they have not reckoned on the nightmare scenario of dealing with the complaints of the fussy British female eater.  I would rather they reduced the prices and didn't serve meals at all if thats all they can provide.*

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As someone who is cabin staff, could you tell me what you expect me to do at 40,000 feet!  The only way to complain is before - write to them and tell them what you think and that yuo won't be flying BA.  Then they may sort out the problem.

As for dealing with the nightmare scenarios, they already have them onboard already with people who won't eat non-halal meals.  Its the cabin crew on the day that get the grief, and they're not the ones that have made the decisions!  It won't change anything, just make the front line staff miserable.  I'm mad enough that the meals will be halal myself - my blinkin crew meal will be too, so no food for me on a ten hour flight![/QUOTE]

I feel your pain. Funny how us 'front line' staff take all the abuse and get paid the least. I work in a bank so I feel your pain. We get all the abuse for decisions made by those that do get paid lots and quite often we don't agree with the decisions. That and we generally hear about them via the press and/or forums rather than from the employer. It also annoys me that BA have been targetted in the press yet, actually, if the changes come into effect it will be the same on a awful lot more airlines. Don't gate gourmet cater for almost all the airlines at LHR? Shocking that you get hassle re having non-halal, it is BRITISH airways after all. Maybe next time I fly Emirates I'll ask for non-Halal, wonder what they'd say? 

Totally off topic, but, 10hr flights, do you fly 777's? I used to fly and instruct (on gliders and light aircraft) and my dream was to fly them. Unfortunately, it requires a lot of money to do so :-(.


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## Honey08 (25 September 2010)

Thanks Suzysparkle.  Yes I fly on 777s and 747s (which I prefer by miles!)  Yes Gate Gourmet do cater most aircraft at LHR, so it will be a problem for everyone - even the foreign airlines.  Its quite interesting that many people still fly BA when they want halal of kosher, even if there is an alternative airline that would be totally kosher or halal meals.


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## suzysparkle (25 September 2010)

I would have thought that as well about meal choice and which airline people choose. I'm actually amazed at the level of choice offered on airlines. I'm sure all these dietary problems (ie allergies and intolerences) have only appeared in the last 10 years or so. That, coupled with religious demands, must make it tough.

**off topic** Arghh....no no no, 777 = much nicer . Funnily I was chatting to the (777) crew last time I was on BA and they all said they prefered the jumbo. They were nice to me and gave me lots of sparkling wine . I expect because I took the time to go and have a chat. Nothing will convince me they are better though! I tend to choose my airlines by aircraft on the route!!


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## dRats (25 September 2010)

Perhaps some facts could help.......
On BBC Farming Today radio prog (podcast available on BBC.co.uk) on 21 Sep 2010 it was stared that ' all beef and lamb from New Zealand is slaughtered by an accepted halal method'....NZ has high welfare standards at home and this does involve stunning. The question was re labelling, as it's not widely known that NZ slaughtered meat is halal. Here is a BBC news story from 2004 re the possibility of acceptance of the NZ method by both religious and welfare bodies.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3604675.stm


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## suzysparkle (25 September 2010)

See, that's another thing I don't understand. Why do we have to stock supermarkets with Lamb (and beef?) from New Zealand when there's plenty sheep here? Isn't there enough? Excuse my ignorance on this if there's an obvious reason! Is it cost? But how can it be when it has to travel so far? Confused.com!


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## Alec Swan (25 September 2010)

brighteyes said:



			I think Mithras has excelled herself with her posts, too. We need a 'Like' button!
		
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There you are,  brighteyes,  just for you,  *****!!

Farming Today,  isn't always the most reliable of reports,  however,  if it's actually true,  then can you imagine the pressure which could be brought to bear upon the Supermarkets?!

Alec.


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## gekko (26 September 2010)

Don't believe all the bunny hugger propaganda about the live sheep trade to the Mid East...
The trade is strictly regulated, there are vets on board the ships and the mortality rate is actually much LOWER during the voyage that it is in the paddock! The sailings are restricted during certain times of the year to avoid high temperatures and all sheep being loaded have to meet very strict health criteria and pass vet inspection before they even run up the gang plank... Personally I'd rather see them slaughtered here and shipped cold, but thats on an economic basis, because the $ and processing jobs would stay here... That said, Meat And Livestock Australia, the producers group, has built holding feedlots and slaughter facilities in the ME to high standards and trained the local staff to use humane methods (which most Halal IS) Infact I'd say the feedlots are better designed and set up than most on farms here! Lots of shade and higher staff numbers than Aussie farmers could ever afford!

Ummmm you DO realise that organic waste is disposed overboard from ships all the time? Theres rules about plastic and toxics but adding a sheep to the marine food chain is not exactly an issue.... and they ARE dead, what would you want done with them? Any deaths that occurr close to land are frozen for later disposal, but at sea, why NOT feed the fish?

Why does the UK import sheep? Cos theres a bloody lot of you on a piddly little island that has exceeded it's carrying capacity, you might think you have a "lot" of sheep...but it's not enough to meet demand! 

Honestly this whole issue is total BS, Halal is NO different than Non Halal as far as non muslims are concerned so why not do all all meals in a manner that suits all...The cruelty claims are a racist beat up in 99% of this argument...Halal is as humane as any other slaughter method! Exanguination is accepted as a rapid and humane slaughter method by those with the proper knowledge to make such judgements. and nothing prevents stunning before hand. It still ends up dead and tastes the same!
I just can't get over the number of idiots who don't realise ALL meat is bled out, stunned first or otherwise!


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## 3DE (26 September 2010)

gekko said:



			Halal is as humane as any other slaughter method! Exanguination is accepted as a rapid and humane slaughter method by those with the proper knowledge to make such judgements. and nothing prevents stunning before hand. It still ends up dead and tastes the same!
I just can't get over the number of idiots who don't realise ALL meat is bled out, stunned first or otherwise!
		
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No it isn;t as humane as the animal being dead first. Have you actually witnessed it first hand? I have. It takes the animal about 3 minutes to fully die and be brain dead. In this time the animal is still writhing and distressed. In non-halal/kosher meat the animal is stunned and then killed with a bolt _before_ exanguination. Exanguination is done purely to maintain the quality of the meat, not to kill the animal (livor mortice is not pretty).

I wish to this day that I had not volunteered at a halal abertoir during my vet-met work experience - it was a horrific experience. Something that didn't bother me at all with the traditional British slaughterhouse I worked for.

As an aside I kill my own chickens by breaking their necks, but before doing so I ensure they are in catatonic stupor be turning them on their back with their head lower than their bodies (if you have a bunny try it - it really works). This isn't how chickens are slaughtered when in mass production - have a look at that and you will be horrified.

I now only eat meat that I know where it has come from and how it has been slaughtered. And believe it or not, meat sourced from farm shops is far cheaper than supermarket meat!


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## EAST KENT (26 September 2010)

NO it is not humane..and no I am NOT just believing PETA info.I have seen those appalling sheep ships loading up in Freemantle;it is a remains a disgrace to humanity of which Australia should be ashamed,there is no  defence.


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## Jim Moriarty (26 September 2010)

Hadn't realised just how many Ivory Towers were actually inhabited in this country.


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## EAST KENT (26 September 2010)

JimMoriarty said:



			Hadn't realised just how many Ivory Towers were actually inhabited in this country. 

Click to expand...

As a non meat eater it is`nt an Ivory Tower at all,just someone with a fair sense of right and wrong.


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## Luci07 (26 September 2010)

We do have a choice, we can "vote with our feet". I support local butcher/farmshop. Went shopping yesterday and DID look at the pre-cooked meals - and in fact the ones I picked up clearly stated "british chicken" etc etc on it. Mind you, nothing to say humanely reared ones.

I appreciate I am in a position whereby I can - literally - afford to be picky about my meat, also vaguely aware of being hypocritical as am a meat eater, but do not under any circumstances want to visit a slaughterhouse. I do however, follow the precept that if I choose to eat meat, then I must support the farmers who follow animal care guidelines, and offer a good quality of life to their livestock. 

And I am not in a position to clearly state how Halal works but guys.. if you just read this thread, talk about conflicting arguments! Googled and got the same. So - not convinced about the bleed out to die business. Will support stunning and not halal..

and btw - was brought up to be polite to everyone which includes cabin staff, bank staff etc etc. Also like to think I have the intelligence to realise that they are not responsible for the decisions we all have to adhere to. So if you cross my path on BA - I will be the veggie one, near the front, who will be over purchasing the duty free "bargains"!


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## Silverspring (26 September 2010)

As a veggie this doesn't really concern me but it would seem everyone is getting rather excited about the so called cruelty when 90% of halal meat is slaughtered in the exact same way as all the other animals you eat.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2010/sep/20/halal-meat-the-truth


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## gekko (26 September 2010)

You've seen a ship in Freemantle! WooHoo! Guess that means you know all the ins and outs of the regulations and inspections and what goes on onboard.... The asthetics of floating feedlot design offend you, so you JUST know it's a welfare disgrace....

As I said, mortality is lower than in the paddock, sheep arrive in M.E. in BETTER condition than loading (They fatten on the trip! Something stressed stock don't do...)

Personally I have not skippered a live sheep transport to the M.E., just live cattle transport to Indonesia, so obviously I know nothing at all about the regulations and conduct of live export..... ;-p


Some of you don't want to know facts or the truth, your too busy being offended and outraged!


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## brighteyes (26 September 2010)

I guess this is what Gekko is on about - judge for yourselves...

[youtube]eQRZeiOQvaw[/youtube]


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## brighteyes (26 September 2010)

Or alternatively....

[youtube]HuYmAROM1Ek[/youtube]

And I didn't actually watch this one.


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## gekko (27 September 2010)

Interesting isn't it...one very factual video providing lots of information and verifyable images.... One making emotive claims with no verifyable evidence as the the sheep REALLY being from where they say and infact dealing with only a TINY number of sheep out of a huge number... Of course some sheep sold live from a market may end up in a place that doesn't play by the rules that most do....but thats the case everywhere! We all have cases of cruelty in our own countries, but some of us are smart enough to realise they ARE the exceptions!


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## perfect11s (27 September 2010)

Silverspring said:



			As a veggie this doesn't really concern me but it would seem everyone is getting rather excited about the so called cruelty when 90% of halal meat is slaughtered in the exact same way as all the other animals you eat.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2010/sep/20/halal-meat-the-truth

Click to expand...

I wouldnt trust anything you read in the guardian it has the most destructive and disgusting agenda. and is the rag of choice for the people who have done so much to damage  this country
and its people...


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## eahotson (27 September 2010)

So the Guardian was the paper that said that the Jews trying to escape Hitler and Germany were really criminals, wanting to latch on to Britain was it? Or was that the Daily Mail?


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## perfect11s (27 September 2010)

eahotson said:



			So the Guardian was the paper that said that the Jews trying to escape Hitler and Germany were really criminals, wanting to latch on to Britain was it? Or was that the Daily Mail?
		
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 sorry not with you??? I think you're in the wrong thread.....


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## Puppy (27 September 2010)

suzysparkle said:



			Google 'British Airways Halal'
It's on many websites. Yes the Daily Mail is one of them but it's also on places like the *BNP website*, Financial Times, various forums, facebook, and pro-Halal websites.
		
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Seriously?! Seriously?! Did you just quote the BNP website as a source of news...?! 

*head explodes*


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## Puppy (27 September 2010)

Gingerwitch said:



			Why dont we all just lobby the fat cats and ask them to explain why we are being taken over a forigen race - are we not just celebrating the battle of britain - well i bet most of those poor lads are spinning in there graves - and at this rate we will all be wishing we had been invaded by the Germans - at least we knew whom we were fighting and at least we were able to fight back! It makes me sick to the core - the last 4/5 pariliments have THROWN this country away - they should be ashamed !
		
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WTF?! Better off taken over by Nazis than showing tolerance to other races and religions......???!!!   Mind you, I guess that was Hitler's thinking when he decided to get rid of the Jews!


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## Puppy (27 September 2010)

trundle said:



			Funny how the vast majority of reports of this outrage are from "fear the Muslims"-type sites. There's one called creepingsharia.com, FFS! And the BNP is hardly a reputable source of news. 

The actual quote from the FT, whose readers have some semblance of an education, often even KNOW brown-skinned people,  and generally see the Daily mail for the rag it is, says;

"BA told the Financial Times it had not yet discussed the move with Gate Gourmet and had no plans to change its menus."

Not quite the same as the story on the BNP and Mail websites...but then you wouldn't expect it to be.
		
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  Awesome post!!


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## Puppy (27 September 2010)

perfect11s said:



			rights to women!!!!!LOL.. like stoning to death for minor adultry and being second class citizens not being allowed education or to drive, the list is enless  and other religions are the infidel and christans are persicuted attacked and killed in moslem countys  and forced  to convert and as for planting bombs  in warrington not yet!!!but countless  suicide bombs  against there fellow citicens and  two planes were flown into  the twin towers  which killed100s of inocent people in the name of  islam  and the london bombings and other atempts .... please....... *its a barbaric religion*  stuck in the middle ages....
		
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And you are a disgusting racist!


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## perfect11s (27 September 2010)

Puppy said:



			Seriously?! Seriously?! Did you just quote the BNP website as a source of news...?! 

*head explodes*
		
Click to expand...

 Yes its shocking... but we do need a ballance and other views to make a democracy work...


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## Puppy (27 September 2010)

perfect11s said:



			Add me to your list of racsists if you want I aggree with the other post and am also sick of this misguided apeasment of minortys...  stuff them if they have to have halal to conform to there horrid religion  let THEM have the vegie option ... simple fit in  or ship out why do they come and live in a western country to escape oppression and poverty then try to turn the host county in to what they left behind...
		
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Oh don't worry, you are definitely on the list of racists! 

Your ignorance is disgusting,  As is your spelling! All the muslims I know can write in better English than you can!


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## perfect11s (27 September 2010)

Puppy said:



			Oh don't worry, you are definitely on the list of racists! 

Your ignorance is disgusting,  As is your spelling! All the muslims I know can write in better English than you can! 

Click to expand...

 Oh thank you!!! one day you will hopefully be older wiser and not so narrowmided, be  better at understanding how the world works and why people hold the views  they do and their agendas...how it will affect you and the world you and your family have to live in...


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## Minxie (27 September 2010)

perfect11s said:



			rights to women!!!!!LOL.. like stoning to death for minor adultry and being second class citizens not being allowed education or to drive, the list is enless  and other religions are the infidel and christans are persicuted attacked and killed in moslem countys  and forced  to convert and as for planting bombs  in warrington not yet!!!but countless  suicide bombs  against there fellow citicens and  two planes were flown into  the twin towers  which killed100s of inocent people in the name of  islam  and the london bombings and other atempts .... please....... its a barbaric religion  stuck in the middle ages....
		
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Okay I'd normally never do this as i'm the worst spelling in the world but it did make me chuckle .

Adultry = adultery

enless = endless

christans = christians

persicuted = persecuted 

moslem = muslim 

citicens = citizens 

inocent = innocent


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## suzysparkle (27 September 2010)

Puppy said:



			Seriously?! Seriously?! Did you just quote the BNP website as a source of news...?! 

*head explodes*
		
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Someone asked where people heard about this possible change. I had actually seen it on the FT website, but, did a google search to see where else it came up. That was one of the places, amongst others, which I also mentioned. 

Jeez................


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## perfect11s (27 September 2010)

Minxie said:



			Okay I'd normally never do this as i'm the worst spelling in the world but it did make me chuckle .

Adultry = adultery

enless = endless

christans = christians

persicuted = persecuted 

moslem = muslim 

citicens = citizens 

inocent = innocent
		
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 Cheers ...


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## martlin (27 September 2010)

hmmm, it is a well known phenomenon... when the discussion is going badly, one side will ALWAYS bring Hitler into it
and when you have nothing to counter somebody's argument, there is always the spelling attack 

Classy, very classy.


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## Jim Moriarty (27 September 2010)

martlin said:



			hmmm, it is a well known phenomenon... when the discussion is going badly, one side will ALWAYS bring Hitler into it
and when you have nothing to counter somebody's argument, there is always the spelling attack 

Classy, very classy.
		
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Godwin's Law.


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## Mithras (27 September 2010)

suzysparkle said:



			[/B]

As someone who is cabin staff, could you tell me what you expect me to do at 40,000 feet!  The only way to complain is before - write to them and tell them what you think and that yuo won't be flying BA.  Then they may sort out the problem.
		
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Simply to answer my reasonable questions about the method of slaughter of any meat contained in the meat dishes and to answer any further concerns I put to you.  I am always polite and reasonable, but along with many other people with an independent brain, I do know how to question.  The fact that you are a little worried about dealing with such questions/possible complaints means that its going to be quite effective.

Writing to large companies is generally a total waste of time.  And my time is extremely valuable and not best used in this way.  I have no intention of not flying BA, unless a viable alternative is available, but I pay a little extra to fly with them and I do not expect to be subjected to halal meals while doing so.  If they do introduce them, I will certainly have to ask questions to verify the source of the meat.  

Imagine though the prospect of an aeroplane full of fussy eaters, all asking similar questions, going "Bleurgh, I'm not eating THAT!".  And it will filter up to management, and those who make the decisions, much more effectively than any amount of letters.  As you rightly point out, its hassle that staff such as yourself really don't need to be dealing with.

Can I also just say that I find it really insulting when posters rely on the ignorance of people's knowledge of the slaughter process and use that ignorance to make sweeping broad brush statements that echo that ignorance, apart from the sarcastic tone employed?


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## eahotson (27 September 2010)

Perfect 11s you were questioning the Guardians agenda, me the Daily mails which has always seemed to me  to have an anti immigrant policy.While I do think that most people who are posting on here are genuine when they say that theirs is not a rascist/religious objection, simply a concern for animal welfare, there are one or two for whom I don't think that is quite true.


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## Jim Moriarty (27 September 2010)

I suspect more than 'one or two', alas.


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## suzysparkle (27 September 2010)

FYI Mithras, the quote below is not mine. I did answer to it thus I will have quoted it, but it was not my original post. I don't work for BA (did a few years ago though) 

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzysparkle  
[/B]

As someone who is cabin staff, could you tell me what you expect me to do at 40,000 feet! The only way to complain is before - write to them and tell them what you think and that yuo won't be flying BA. Then they may sort out the problem.


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## EAST KENT (27 September 2010)

There is never ever any justification in cruelty on economic grounds,the sheep industry in Australia is as guilty as sin on that point..there is no defence.


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## brighteyes (27 September 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			There is never ever any justification in cruelty on economic grounds,the sheep industry in Australia is as guilty as sin on that point..there is no defence.
		
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So the first video I linked is rubbish?  My head is about to go bang, too...

I was under the impression that anyone (or thing) having their throat slit had seconds of consciousness (if that) and exsanguination continues until the heart stops beating?  The pain, or lack thereof is dependent on the trueness of the blade and skill of the person weilding it. 

If this is accurate, the problem then lies with the guaranteed sharpness of the blade for each animal, the skill of the slaughterer and cooperation of the animal, surely?  As all are vulnerable to failure or a rating of less than 100%  assurance, then it's not good enough for me.

I think I'd like to be on Mithras' flight when she demands to know the exact details of her meal's last moments... or maybe I'll just read about it in the DM!


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## Alec Swan (27 September 2010)

brighteyes,

firstly,  back to your two previous vids.  A clever way of making your point,  and on the face of it,  difficult to argue with,  except that I'm going to try!  

To that end,  and secondly,  I see that you couldn't bring yourself to watch your second offering.  You should.  It wasn't that bad,  and I've witnessed far worse.  In it you will see that sheep have been hogged,  by tying their legs together,  laid in a row,  over a drain,  and then they've had their throats cut.  The man doing the work was reasonably skilled,  and in the event that there was no "system" in place,  then it seemed quite reasonable,  to me.  Death was very quickly achieved.

When I've had rams vasectomised,  to be used as teasers,  then we always tie their legs.  It's safer for them,  and the vet!  Most would consider that to be acceptable.  If we prevent an animal from struggling,  be it for an operation,  or its slaughter,  then that has to be the most humane way of doing things.

With the odd possible exception,  I really don't believe that animals have any concept of death.  The horse,  for instance,  which will not allow a vet with a needle,  within ten yards,  will stand quietly whilst a gun is put to its head.

In your second vid,  a man kicked a sheep in the face.  If you'd asked him why he'd done it,  he probably wouldn't have an answer.  It was pointless,  and it achieved nothing.  Generally speaking,  I think,  that most men,  of what ever denomination,  have families to go home to,  and just as the rest of us,  the sooner we reach the end of our working day,  the better!  Pointless violence,  directed at the animal to be killed,  would be considered by most,  to be a waist of both time and energy.

Alec.


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## jaypeebee (27 September 2010)

Some of this thread makes very uncomfortable reading.  If anyone as a human being cannot see how racist, ignorant and narrow minded some comments are then it is a waste of time trying to offer a different view point.  Puppy I give you thanks.


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## Saucisson (27 September 2010)

The first video cheered me up to be honest -  hope it is like that!

As for the second, well, there's plenty of horrible video footage of non-Halal slaughter in this country that's down to some mindless idiot.  It didn't seem to have anything to do with the transportation.  I'm sure that many Muslims would also find this behaviour distasteful.


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## nativetyponies (27 September 2010)

racism?..maybe..

a muslim having a pop at the jews...

http://www.albalagh.net/halal/kosher_meat.shtml


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## brighteyes (27 September 2010)

*Alec*

I posted the second vid as a random - it just looked like it might not be so nice as the first, which I did watch!

I'm thinking that apart from stating the obvious connection with Halal slaughter and the dim view I take of the process, I haven't gone racist.

Can anyone tell me why, if it's so kind and quick, that we don't have our pets PTS this way?


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## AJ & Kiz (27 September 2010)

Sorry if this annoys anyone but I tend to agree with all the people that are saying if u don't like it be a veggie!! At the end of the day the poor animals are gonna get killed no matter what once they are dead that's it.. Yes I'm a veggie because I believe that if u can't kill it and skin it urself then u shouldn't  be eating it! x


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## YorksG (27 September 2010)

If I was going to kill my own meat, I would do it in the most humane way available to me at the time. I am sure that Halal and Kosher both started out as that, however methods have improved over time, it is unfortunate that the religeous leaders have insisted that the ritual methods of slaughter have remained. I do not see that objecting to eating halal or kosher meat equates to racism, or that it should lead to one eating no meat. If there are standards of slaughter set down by statute, then they should be adhered to by everyone, or perhaps those who insist on meat being slaughtered in a less humane manner, for their beliefs, then they could decline to eat meat.
Any law which allows different levels of adherence is an innately bad law IMO. Or would people consider it would be allowable for an employer to refuse to employ women or gay people on religeous grounds?


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## Alec Swan (27 September 2010)

yorksG said:



			If I was going to kill my own meat, I would do it in the most humane way available to me at the time. I am sure that Halal and Kosher both started out as that, however methods have improved over time, it is unfortunate that the religeous leaders have insisted that the ritual methods of slaughter have remained. I do not see that objecting to eating halal or kosher meat equates to racism, or that it should lead to one eating no meat. If there are standards of slaughter set down by statute, then they should be adhered to by everyone, or perhaps those who insist on meat being slaughtered in a less humane manner, for their beliefs, then they could decline to eat meat.
Any law which allows different levels of adherence is an innately bad law IMO. Or would people consider it would be allowable for an employer to refuse to employ women or gay people on religeous grounds?
		
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Without question,  valid points yorksG.  I'm rapidly reaching the stage,  where I think,  that with the odd exception perhaps,  then everyone's views are legitimate,  even though this thread has split into two,  more or less parallel arguments,  one dealing with the ethics of slaughter,  and the other arguing about the rights and wrongs of how we treat our fellow man.

Is there anybody on here who's open minded enough to have their view changed?  Probably not,  is the answer,  and if I wont then,  why should anyone else?

Another small whiskey,  then I'm off to my bed!

Alec.


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## perfect11s (28 September 2010)

Alec Swan said:



			Without question,  valid points yorksG.  I'm rapidly reaching the stage,  where I think,  that with the odd exception perhaps,  then everyone's views are legitimate,  even though this thread has split into two,  more or less parallel arguments,  one dealing with the ethics of slaughter,  and the other arguing about the rights and wrongs of how we treat our fellow man.

Is there anybody on here who's open minded enough to have their view changed?  Probably not,  is the answer,  and if I wont then,  why should anyone else?

Another small whiskey,  then I'm off to my bed!

Alec.
		
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 I strongly agree that everyone's intitled  to there view as long as it is their view!!! and not what they think they are suposed to think... and can weigh the aguments   on both sides and put a point forward  sadly there are a  more than a few  who dont seem  to be able think for themselves  dont offer a counter argument and just shout down other opinions...


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## eahotson (28 September 2010)

Actually I have or am in the process of, changing my mind.I still think  that Halal/Kosher is as good as it gets when there was/is no stun gun etc. available but where there is I think it should be used.So long as the animal is brain dead I don't supose it much matters what happens next.Funnily enough, it would seem that in the western world at least THE MAJORITY of Halal is stunned first, its going to be the Kosher crowd that will be hardest to convince.I do think that the Halal/Kosher rules were put into place as a humane solution to animal slaughter but times have moved on and better ways are now available.


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## eahotson (28 September 2010)

P.S These are my views and not some form of political correctness.All the views I have expressed on this post have been my own.


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## gekko (28 September 2010)

Why don't we use exanguination to put down our pets? Cos it's messy and upsets delicate petals like yourself... same reason some bunny huggers will protest shooting a horse instead of the green dream (which in my very experienced opinion is slower and has much more potential for suffering!) 
I personally HAVE used exanguination to put down animals, and was infact trained to put down horses via internal exanguination via rectum in "visible" public situations where shooting was not possible and drugs were unavailable in a timely manner.... ANY quick death is prefferable to a slow and painful one.


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## martlin (28 September 2010)

Gekko,
as much as your argument has a lot of valid points, you come across as very angry and extremely patronising, you assume that other posters have no experience, knowledge or sense.
Where in fact, believing a lovely piece of government propaganda and dismissing opposing pictures of a practice shows IMO a certain degree of naivety on your part.
I have been ever so slightly offended by your posts, even though they have not been directed at me personally.
I don't like the Halal slaughter, I like Kosher even less, therefore make my choice and a) don't eat it and b) ensure none of my livestock are slaughtered that way.

PS. As much as you can ensure animals' welfare in transit, you can't possibly regulate what the buyers will chose as a method of slaughter in their own country - you simply don't have such authority and the only way would be not to sell the livestock to them.


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## jaypeebee (28 September 2010)

martlin said:



			PS. As much as you can ensure animals' welfare in transit, you can't possibly regulate what the buyers will chose as a method of slaughter in their own country - you simply don't have such authority and the only way would be not to sell the livestock to them.
		
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Not yet may be, but some are trying hard to improve standards with Brunei taking a stand and trying to lead the field.  Rome wasnt conquered in a day and your own methods are not fail sure either.  Its something every one has to work for because we have the same wishes that animals do not suffer.  Stunning has mostly been accepted for halal killings and it is a step in the right direction.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/596846-gso-failing-to-standardise-halal-meat-production

http://www.halaljournal.com/article/4768/vendors-in-se-asia-have-faith-in-brunei-halal-logo


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## martlin (28 September 2010)

jaypeebee said:



			Rome wasnt conquered in a day and your own methods are not fail sure either.
		
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I never said they were.


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## ucmeicu (28 September 2010)

Muslim issues are not race issues... it is a religion

Heres a video of halal and western slaughter methods.

http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQOKQ__3vQw


The Koran/Quran...  Mohamed wants all the Jews dead and the hate preachers say they respect the Nazis for all they did to the Jews. Having watched numerous videos of christians being burnt alive all over the world its obvious christians are suffering the same fate now.
Lets also not forget that all you women posting on here would have no rights whatsoever, not even be allowed out with a man on your own unless its your husband, you'd be stoned to death. 
If you think there is no muslim threat to this country just remember demographics

Demographics when one group reproduces in greater numbers than another group over years they outpopulate the population that in turn increases voting power they then become entitled to a greater proportion of resources housing schooling healthcare education employment the increase in voting numbers will allow them to v...ote in their councillors their politicians local and national to pressure for their schools their places of worship their laws
Nearly 100 sharia courts already in this country. Muslim councils, muslim police.

. 
Dar al-Islam and dar al-harb: the House of Islam and the House of War 

The following is one chapter of Islam 101:

The violent injunctions of the Quran and the violent precedents set by Muhammad set the tone for the Islamic view of politics and of world history. Islamic scholarship divides the world into two spheres of influence, the House of Islam (dar al-Islam) and the House of War (dar al-harb).

Islam means submission, and so the House of Islam includes those nations that have submitted to Islamic rule, which is to say those nations ruled by Sharia law. The rest of the world, which has not accepted Sharia law and so is not in a state of submission, exists in a state of rebellion or war with the will of Allah.

It is incumbent on dar al-Islam to make war upon dar al-harb until such time that all nations submit to the will of Allah and accept Sharia law. Islam's message to the non-Muslim world is the same now as it was in the time of Muhammad and throughout history: submit or be conquered.


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## EAST KENT (28 September 2010)

Gekko is just a typical resident from Down Under..extremely prickley about any possible criticism regarding their country`s less humane attitude to farm animal welfare than us "bunny huggers" care to tolerate. Ask him about "crutching"..another extreme farming practice ,totally unacceptable to us here..Dare You!
One of my weird theories is that maybe we go into re-incarnation as the species we were nastiest to..in which case Gekko you will be a merino in the "paddocks" And possibly get lucky and go on a cruise even.


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## Saucisson (28 September 2010)

ucmeicu said:



			Lets also not forget that all you women posting on here would have no rights whatsoever, not even be allowed out with a man on your own unless its your husband, you'd be stoned to death. 
If you think there is no muslim threat to this country just remember demographics
		
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Eh???  What??? Eh?????  Where on earth do these "facts" come from?????  Afghanistan/Pakistan/Saudi are by no means the only Muslim countries on the planet and there is a disgusting amount of anti-islaam propaganga here in the West.

I've lived (and guess what.....worked ) in a Muslim country as do many Western women.  I loved it.  Also (shock horror) the local arab ladies just about managed to hold jobs down too - and nobody raised a stone. 

Much as I agree with Martlin on Hitler being bought into every argument by the Brits, I have to say that two of the biggest nutters and mass murderers last century saw were anti-religious atheists who couldn't see or tolerate any other point of view.  Between them, they decimated civilised Europe by appealing to the lowest common denomiminator in society and unleashing their stupidity on religious and ethnic minorities who neither had the numbers or the weapons to fight back.


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## MotherOfChickens (28 September 2010)

Hitler was not an atheist. Stalin was 

still, much misinformation on Islam/Muslims, as per normal. I am actually more afraid of Daily Mail readers taking over the country..god, they are even having a go at the colonies ( ) and some of them have even had a go at the rest of the UK in other threads.  culture of fear alive and well in England it would seem.


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## brighteyes (28 September 2010)

If it's not about religion and who is allowed to eat meat treated (or not treated) in a particular way at the point of death - well, what is it about?


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## Saucisson (28 September 2010)

peteralfred said:



			Hitler was not an atheist. Stalin was 

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I stand corrected, point being though that they couldn't have raised a finger without some cooperation from the "people".  I see that anti-semetism is alive and well here in continental Europe and usually hand-in-hand with anti-Islaam....er.....ists.

I stand to be corrected (again ) but isn't it generally the more tolerant societies that tend to be the most prosperous, peaceful and long-lived?


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## Saucisson (28 September 2010)

peteralfred said:



			I am actually more afraid of Daily Mail readers taking over the country.
		
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*Whispers*  Could that perhaps be the "lowest common denominator" as previously mentioned?


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## EAST KENT (28 September 2010)

I stand to be corrected (again ) but isn't it generally the more tolerant societies that tend to be the most prosperous, peaceful and long-lived?[/QUOTE]

Not so sure on that one..is China or Japan super tolerant?  They are both prosperous and on the rise though.


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## Saucisson (28 September 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			Not so sure on that one..is China or Japan super tolerant?  They are both prosperous and on the rise though.
		
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Communist China is a long way off proving itself to be in my (very important ) list of long-lived civilisations. Also, they are becoming more open/tolerant as they realise the necessity to engage with other civilisations to grow and grab the natural resources of the world.  Not that GB would have EVER stooped to such blatant exploitation  

Japan......well they've come on a fair bit in the last 50 years haven't they?


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## perfect11s (28 September 2010)

peteralfred said:



			Hitler was not an atheist. Stalin was 

still, much misinformation on Islam/Muslims, as per normal. I am actually more afraid of Daily Mail readers taking over the country..god, they are even having a go at the colonies ( ) and some of them have even had a go at the rest of the UK in other threads.  culture of fear alive and well in England it would seem.
		
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 yet again shouting racist  what a shame  headless halal  chickens giving the PC  Islam is a gentle loveing religion and there is nothing to worry about tosh, however I am realy angry that Blair and Bush started stiring up the middle east, that the pricks had the stupid idea they could force our values and way of life on them they dont and will never want it they are different with a totaly different outlook 
why would we want to try to change them??  we should live and let live and abide by their rules when in their countrys and we should expect the same in return  when they live or work in the west, but now we have made them feel like victims so no wonder they attack the west  and feel aggreved...www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgQdZgojOFI


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## jaypeebee (28 September 2010)

Saucisson said:



			I stand to be corrected (again ) but isn't it generally the more tolerant societies that tend to be the most prosperous, peaceful and long-lived?
		
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this is an interesting thought.  Here is list of 25 richest countries in the world and with the exeption of USA and Ireland, the rest are peaceful countries.

http://www.countryreports.org/compare/top25.aspx?c=GDPPerCapita

Looking at life span averages by country, the rich list seems to go hand in hand for some countries but I think there are other factors at play in others.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html


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## jaypeebee (28 September 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			Not so sure on that one..is China or Japan super tolerant?  They are both prosperous and on the rise though.
		
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China is not a prosperous country, nor could the Chinese be called a tolerant society.  HK brought Chinas wealth up and was the gate way for trading with the west which has helped but there is still a great deal of poverty in China.  Japan is an interesting country with some wealth and Japanese have become a tolerant society.


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## Saucisson (28 September 2010)

Saucisson said:



			Not that GB would have EVER stooped to such blatant exploitation 

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Wow, I just quoted myself for the first time?!?!?  I just want to add that this is NOT a slight on the British Empire which in the context of the time was perhaps one of the more tolerant imperialist powers.  Although I can understand that some folks may argue against this.


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## nativetyponies (28 September 2010)

peteralfred said:



			I am actually more afraid of Daily Mail readers taking over the country...
		
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Reply of the thread for me!


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## Queenbee87 (28 September 2010)

Peteralfred- I would take Daily Mail readers over those who "read" (and I use the word in the loosest sense!) the Daily Sport any day!!


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## Saucisson (28 September 2010)

Queenbee87 said:



			Peteralfred- I would take Daily Mail readers over those who "read" (and I use the word in the loosest sense!) the Daily Sport any day!! 

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I know where you're coming from but those with a little bit of education are maybe more dangerous?


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## Queenbee87 (28 September 2010)

Saucisson said:





I know where you're coming from but those with a little bit of education are maybe more dangerous?
		
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Possibly....but their brain is more likely to be in the correct part of their anatomy for a greater proportion of the time? (hmmm.....having just typed that I'm not sure if that makes it better or worse??)


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## MotherOfChickens (28 September 2010)

perfect11s said:



			yet again shouting racist  what a shame  headless halal  chickens giving the PC  Islam is a gentle loveing religion and there is nothing to worry about tosh,
		
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I'm sorry but once you begin to write like an adult then I might be able to understand what you are trying to say. Of course, you are the one who hates Scotland because up here we spend all your taxes arent you? 

anyway, I am anti-religion in general, I am an atheist and I am under no illusion about fundamentalists of any religion-Christian, Jewish or Scientologist or whatever.


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## Pampera (29 September 2010)

Gingerwitch said:



			Why dont we all just lobby the fat cats and ask them to explain why we are being taken over a forigen race - are we not just celebrating the battle of britain - well i bet most of those poor lads are spinning in there graves - and at this rate we will all be wishing we had been invaded by the Germans - at least we knew whom we were fighting and at least we were able to fight back! It makes me sick to the core - the last 4/5 pariliments have THROWN this country away - they should be ashamed !
		
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As a matter of fact many of the pilots who fought and died in the RAF during the BoB and later campaigns were not British.

The Polish squadrons who fought in the BoB did particularly well, but his hasn't stopped Nick Griffin used a Polish Spitfire as his campaign background when he was complaining about the immigrants from Eastern Europe).

In addition to pilots from the (then white) Commonwealth, 'coloured' pilots from India and the West Indies also flew in the BoB and subsequent campaigns.

The RAF's top-scoring squadron in the BoB was 92 Squadron: the East India Squadron; its aircraft paid for by the people of east India, and an Indian cobra formed part of its crest.

After WW2 the British film industry created the myth of the RAF pilots being a bunch of ex public school types. In fact, most of the British RAF pilots were state grammar school educated: the public schools favoured the army and navy over the technocratic and unfashionably 'modern' third service.


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## gekko (29 September 2010)

"East Kent", your ignorance is astounding!
I am not blindly accepting of government propaganda, as I said, I have previously skippered a ship involved in the live export trade. My experience is first hand. I KNOW the facts and have observed them first hand. The live export trade is a favorite target of animal libbers but as said, highly regulated, high standards and a lower mortality rate than just living in the paddock! Shocking!!!

Yes, crutching is a TERRIBLE practice! OMG.....lets tell people what crutching is! 
Crutching is shearing the wool from around the sheeps tail, bum and back of the legs....sometimes they even shear the wool off the cheeks and forehead while they are at it! OMG...and they do this horrible cruelty a couple of times a year! OMG!!!!!!!! Keeps the wool out of their eyes and stops it collecting poop and pee round their back end to help avoid flystrike. I crutched our small flock yesterday as with spring, flys are starting to get active. OF COURSE, after I shore some wool off these sheep I was drenched in blood and went on to drown puppies, kick kittens and steal candy from babies....

Now if you were not just a puppet bleating out rubbish regurgitated from bunny hugger propaganda you would probably realise that what you were TRYING to have a bitch about was muelsing! 

Folks, muelsing DOES look cruel to those who don't understand the process and reason for it, and the alternative for the animals... It involves removing a small area of skin from each butt cheek of young merino lambs, and a bit off the sides of the tail. The skin is sliced off with razor sharp shears and the area is immediately sprayed with a local anethetic/antiseptic that acts on the open areas. This is done at the same time as the lambs are vacinated, ear tagged and tails removed, boys nuts banded etc... within seconds of being done they are grazing again...they show very little distress....they may bleat while it's done but 30 seconds later don't care.
The reason it is done is that Merino sheep have lots of excess skin wrinkles round their bum...these wrinkles provide egg laying areas for Sheep Blowfly. If a sheep is "flystruck" the maggots esentially eat the sheep alive! a slow and painfull death. Crutching helps, but it's not enough with Merrinos.... So the alternative is a quick surgical proceedure as a lamb and reduced risk all their life or a very high chance of dying a painful death by Flystrike. 
You have to be accredited to muelse, must use the pain relief etc... The industry is spending millions to develop alternatives, but as yet none are really viable on a large scale. Their are also attempts to breed smooth breeched Merrinos resistant to the problem.

You can choose to believe PETA and the wackjobs who require outrage to ensure donations, or you can believe the facts. You will note that the groups who protest, never mention the results or suggest viable alternatives...


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## mon (29 September 2010)

it is amazing how people whu dont do/understand shout loudest i have personally sheared 300 ewes cruched  600 sheep and sort lambs for slauhterhouse as a female in farming i dont believe in creulity


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## gekko (29 September 2010)

No farmer with a clue believes in cruelty! A happy sheep/com/pig grows faster and produces better quality meat/more offspring, hence more $! You will actually find those of us who produce livestock are true animal lovers (just a little more realistic than some) and do this because we love it, hell I can tell you now, you CAN'T be in it for the money! There ISN'T any!  LOL


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## EAST KENT (29 September 2010)

Oh I do so humbley apologise to have used the wrong word Gekko.For the rest of you,google" mulesing" and judge fopr yourselves.Small piece of skin,sides of the tail..not from what I`ve seen.
 In this country we would put someone in jail for cruelty like that,believe me.It would be more to the point if a breed of sheep was used that did`nt have all those skin folds would it not?Bit of time and intelligent breeding would sort that one out,but it is of course easier to just hack off the bits that are a nuisance eh?
 Seems someoneon here has become rather hardened to animal suffering,which does not make it right and remans indefenceable to an awful lot of the rest of us.

 And whooppeedoo..Oz now bans docking two day old puppy tails...talk about anomalies.


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## gekko (29 September 2010)

So what sheep do YOU suggest are used to produce fine grade wool ? (Hint...nothing comes close to Merrino) and just what sheep will do well in "station country" (hint...your British breeds won't cut it)... 

Did you not read the line about developing bare breech merrinos???? It does not happen overnight..it's been an ongoing thing for years now... remember, it wasn't a concern during development of the breed...muelsing has always been considered the reasonable option.. and the same process will be continued for the most part.. just instead of it being done surgicly in a few seconds, plastic clips will cause the areas of skin to die and fall off over weeks or chemicals will kill the area of skin leading to the same thing...and these are the methods ACCEPTABLE to the bunny huggers!! Cos they don't look nasty and theres no vissible wound! Not that it's less painfull or kinder, but that it LOOKS that way!

Your failure to even use the correct word says a lot about your knowledge of what really goes on and why. How about living in the real world where animals don't wear clothes and speak with nice midwest accents! Not everything about animal husbandry is nice.. tails need to come off lambs, most males need to lose bits and sometimes bits DO have to come off for the sake of an animals long term health and safety.

Oh...and just a tip, not all states have banned dog tail docking in all cases... But then again, youre not big on facts or accuracy are you....


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## Alec Swan (29 September 2010)

Gekko,

Answering questions is one thing,  but attempting to correct the ill informed,  tends to be a pointless exercise.  You can't put it,  where it wont go!

Alec.

Ets,  I forgot to mention,  we don't do blunt,  even if you are right!!  a.


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## nativetyponies (29 September 2010)

Alec Swan said:



			Gekko,

Answering questions is one thing,  but attempting to correct the ill informed,  tends to be a pointless exercise.  You can't put it,  where it wont go!

Alec.

Ets,  I forgot to mention,  we don't do blunt,  even if you are right!!  a.
		
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## EAST KENT (29 September 2010)

Well you have been a busy little gekko have`nt you!Goodness ..skippered a sheep ship..killed horses via their rectum..slicing off lamb butts,a real animal lover we have here.Just google "mulesing" folks. Your address suits you.


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## Alec Swan (29 September 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			Well you have been a busy little gekko have`nt you!Goodness ..skippered a sheep ship..killed horses via their rectum..slicing off lamb butts,a real animal lover we have here.Just google "mulesing" folks. Your address suits you.

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Gekko,

and so,  to prove my point,  look no further!!

Alec.


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## EAST KENT (29 September 2010)

Oh yes..and while you are on google ..try "sheep ships",the facts are a tad different to the stuff we are being told on here. Ain`t quite the Hilton for sheep someone on here says,mortality is in one year 39,000..seven times the rate of "paddock " deaths. The ships hold 70,000 plus sheep,with one vet on each..but go ahead read it for yourselves.As for halal,if it is so "humane" why then are you not happy for your horses/pets to be killed in this fashion?


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## MotherOfChickens (29 September 2010)

moot point East Knt as exsanguination isnt an option for 'pets'. I really think the only reason for your presence here is to irritate quite frankly. rather mulesling than fly strike.

Gekko, I wouldnt bother, idiots like this are bad for the blood pressure and really, they are just winding you up-don't let them!


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## gekko (30 September 2010)

Note the interesting line "mortality is in ONE YEAR 39,000" ...your care to quote the firgues for EACH year and the total number of sheep transported in those years.... lets not distort the REAL facts....

Several years ago there was a shipment that suffered a considerable mortality due to a lot of stupidity and a bunch of factors coinciding to make a perfect storm of conditions.. That lead to many of the rules and regulations in place now. There has not been a repeat occurence.

Many single holdings in Australia have well in excess of 70,000 sheep! and there are very few vets in rural Australia! The vet is onboard to monitor health, they don't have full days of sheep cosmetic surgery booked in.....

You would be very supprised what I've done and what many and varried qualifications I hold... Master Mariner is only one from my past.... I have a collection of degrees and bits of paper enough to account for the paper production of a small country...and the real world experience to put them in context... not my fault I enjoy learning!


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## EAST KENT (30 September 2010)

peteralfred said:



			moot point East Knt as exsanguination isnt an option for 'pets'. I really think the only reason for your presence here is to irritate quite frankly. rather mulesling than fly strike.

Gekko, I wouldnt bother, idiots like this are bad for the blood pressure and really, they are just winding you up-don't let them!
		
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Not at all,actually just concerned about blatant animal cruelty,if you want the unadulterated facts just google the subject.That,and having friends in Oz,one of whom works here now, but qualified as a vet at Queensland..so many more with first hand information ..I just cannot condone animal cruelty,be it domestic or farm animals.If you can..so be it..but I can not.
 Fact is ,although things are not by any means perfect for farm animals here,they are way better than the sheep industry down under.There would be successful prosecutions for the every day stuff sheep suffer in Oz ,if it were here in UK.

 There are better ways to prevent strike,but basically it costs more and is too much trouble.I do so hope that the breeding trials end result is a sheep better adapted to the conditions it is made live in. Personally though I will not touch any sheep products out of Australia.


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## jaypeebee (30 September 2010)

Gekko you have answered all points.  The majority of us reading this thread probably understand that to change long term animal husbandry practices, particularly breed standards, takes time and that Australia is heading in the right direction.


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## Hairy Old Cob (6 December 2010)

The problem is the state do not have the Bo**ocks the will or the inclination to stand up to a minority who should have been made to intergrate not assimilate to the beliefs of a CHRISTIAN Country not a Secular multi faith society as our politicticians would have us believe that we live in. halal is a babaric method of slaughter left over from the middle ages.


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## Bab (8 December 2010)

Hello Hairy Old Cob.

I think someone needs to read all 28 pages of this thread and come back when you have done so. Of course that wasn't your intention - to read and inform yourself - but hey ho. Thread resuscitated, match lit, job done, right? Onward 'Christian' soldier, and perhaps when you have decided to not write in one long sentence, and have come round to the idea of inserting the odd capital at the start of aforementioned sentences, you'll be able to defend England in English.



Hairy Old Cob said:



			When I left school I was clever enough to go to Agricultural College "Clever People went to University" Not DROSS with useless o levels and gc`s or whatever qualifications are on offer this week
		
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Oh, sorry. I stand corrected.

But perhaps... you might start again with the Bible - tolerance and love.

Then you might dare start on the Quran - not the selected five or so oft-repeated mistranslated lines, but the rest of it.

And then you just might abandon the lot, and just love your fellow man, because that is your truest nature. And it hurts to fight it, doesn't it?

To quote a wiser poster than me:



peteralfred said:



			I am actually more afraid of Daily Mail readers taking over the country..
		
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Happy Christmas, Chanukah, Eid, Diwali and December to all.


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## zefragile (8 December 2010)

Hairy Old Cob said:



			The problem is the state do not have the Bo**ocks the will or the inclination to stand up to a minority who should have been made to intergrate not assimilate to the beliefs of a CHRISTIAN Country not a Secular multi faith society as our politicticians would have us believe that we live in. halal is a babaric method of slaughter left over from the middle ages.

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Eurgh, I wish people would get over the "Christian country" crap.


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## perfect11s (8 December 2010)

zefragile said:



			Eurgh, I wish people would get over the "Christian country" crap. 

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 Yes  its  about  time we accept we are  a wet  cold island ruled by  europe  and look  forward to sharia law instead of worrying about  our culture and values....


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## Luci07 (8 December 2010)

Highly illuminating thread, and in between when I looked hard enough, some actual proven facts - but an awful lot of opinion guys with no back up.

This would make interesting reading for most politicians though and gives an excellent insight as to why the BNP are gathering strength. Through the centuries this country has changed many times, even had a major sea change of religion - and then a pretty violent uprising when the would be Charles 3rd (or Bonnie Prince Charlie) tried to take the throne and turn us back into a catholic nation. I question my own strong desire that we retain our english culture as am not sure where the line needs to be drawn - you can't stay stagnant and this country has grown because of immigrants or overrun by invaders.

But there are 2 things which will always raise my blood pressure - one is to bend to the pressure of some external influences when we are not afforded the same tolerance in the home country but more is this culture of 2nd or 3rd generation of people who just live off benefits! I fully support the benefit support system for those who need it and know I am being over simplistic in wishing that the money would go to those who are in geniune need. Best thing this government has done is to shake this up but I HOPE (probably again a little simplistically) that those who need support are not penalised for not understanding the systems..


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## perfect11s (8 December 2010)

Luci07 said:



			Highly illuminating thread, and in between when I looked hard enough, some actual proven facts - but an awful lot of opinion guys with no back up.

This would make interesting reading for most politicians though and gives an excellent insight as to why the BNP are gathering strength. Through the centuries this country has changed many times, even had a major sea change of religion - and then a pretty violent uprising when the would be Charles 3rd (or Bonnie Prince Charlie) tried to take the throne and turn us back into a catholic nation. I question my own strong desire that we retain our english culture as am not sure where the line needs to be drawn - you can't stay stagnant and this country has grown because of immigrants or overrun by invaders.

But there are 2 things which will always raise my blood pressure - one is to bend to the pressure of some external influences when we are not afforded the same tolerance in the home country but more is this culture of 2nd or 3rd generation of people who just live off benefits! I fully support the benefit support system for those who need it and know I am being over simplistic in wishing that the money would go to those who are in geniune need. Best thing this government has done is to shake this up but I HOPE (probably again a little simplistically) that those who need support are not penalised for not understanding the systems..
		
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   I think you are right in what you say. However how it will end is difficult to predict, at the moment it looks to me  that alot of the clever practical people just get fed up esp when there is a labour goverment  screwing it up  and  go to pastures new OZ NZ Canada the US etc, we brits have to be pushed very hard to fight so it looks like a slow slide into a very different  and poor third world   nation to the one we know and love..


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## eahotson (9 December 2010)

I have a lot more faith ib Britain and the British than you then Perfect11s


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## perfect11s (9 December 2010)

eahotson said:



			I have a lot more faith ib Britain and the British than you then Perfect11s
		
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 I hope you are right however things look fairly bleak esp for the younger generation being able to get on the housing ladder and or a well paid job, the chances of  wealth that was created by rising house prices for a lot of ordanary folk seems a distant memory and many are stuck with renting so never building up a asset for their or their kids    future.  immigration has driven down pay  so there is a huge pay gap with some making a fortune and the majortie just getting by...


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## eahotson (9 December 2010)

I think there are many problems.Competition from the far East for one and we have moved most of our manufacturing industries out there.People want cheap goods and thats the only way to get them.We have a large number of young people leaving school without basic literacy skills, unsocialized and lacking in both self confidence and self esteem.For instance I have a cleaner part time.She is only young, not particularly good, she slips off early and thinks I don't know about it and I pay her well above the minimum wage.She is English through and through.My biggest gripe with her though is this.She has trained to be a cook.She really wants to cook.She can't get a job oop north. I sugested to her that she goes to London.She would get a job there.Might not be brilliant and she may have to rough it.A couple of years down the line though, she would have experience and could come back up north and do what she wants to do.She hasn't got the confidence, get up and go or what, I don't know.There are of course lots more reasons for things being difficult and Iwill leave that to clevere people than me.Things are still pretty good though here in comparison to a lot of the world.


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## EAST KENT (10 December 2010)

OOOH! Looky,holiday makers in the arab resorts are being chewed on by sharks attracted to the area by all those dead sheep lobbed off the floating Hiltons from Oz and NZ. Now that is indeed justice.


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