# What 'is' he?



## Char0901 (17 March 2017)

This question really annoys me. But having a homebred and being on a yard that is mostly showing focused where everything is a Welsh something or other by such and such etc, I get asked a lot. I really have to bite my tongue from replying... 'He's a horse!'

It has however got me thinking.

He was bred out of my late mare who was by Greystone Pathfinder (who is by a stallion called Mariuson, showjumping lines, and his dam was called Shelia Crockett, who seems to be bred out of racing thoroughbreds) My mares dam was called Double Centre, who I can't find much about online, however after speaking to my mare's breeder a couple of years ago, she was a privately owned race horse, who ran but not often.

My youngsters sire is Cairo (by Calido 1. Dam was Madame 1 by Capitol 1)

Sorry, I obviously don't know how to write it like others do!

So, after all that waffle...

What 'is' he? Other than a horse!


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## ihatework (17 March 2017)

He is a mongrel!
Like all the ones I own, some with better bloodlines than others.
Or more commonly called sporthorses!


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## EventingMum (17 March 2017)

Call him a sports horse - anything goes these days! Greystone Pathfinder was a successful eventer too.


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## Goldenstar (18 March 2017)

Call him a British sports horse .


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## ycbm (18 March 2017)

If they are riding 'a warmblood'  (especially if they seem to feel superior about it)  then try asking them what their own horse is.  Warmblood is only the passport/grading, not the breed. It could be anything.


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## flojo (23 March 2017)

Why does the question upset you? They are just asking about something that is of interest to them.  I'm afraid I'm one of those who keeps and shows Welshies and I'm always happy to spout off about my ponies bloodlines to those who ask about them. If the subject is of no interest to you then tell them so. Otherwise tell them that he is a Sports Horse from showjumping/racing  lines


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## Char0901 (23 March 2017)

I didn't say that it upset me, I said that it annoys me. People don't ask how he's bred, they ask what he is. He's a horse. Does it matter?!


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## Crugeran Celt (23 March 2017)

I will always ask what breed a horse is just to improve my understanding of each breeds conformation and characteristics. I don't mean to be rude and like you own a very well bred mare with both a racing and jumping pedigree but not a particular breed. I see it as a way of learning.


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## tallyho! (23 March 2017)

Not being funny but... just say you don't know 

Stumps them everytime..... or fill their empty heads with something more exotic for a laugh


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## Palindrome (22 April 2017)

The dam is a thoroughbred and sire is a warmblood? Horse is a TB warmblood cross or just a warmblood as TB is generally accepted in the warmblood studbooks. 
I am another who likes to ask about breed just by interest and to make a bit of conversation.


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## AdorableAlice (22 April 2017)

I have to admit to being a 'what is he' person.  There are a few bloodlines that I particularly like and few that I would avidly avoid when I go buying for people.  Likewise there a few crosses I would avoid and even a few breeds I don't particularly like.


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## Crugeran Celt (25 April 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			I have to admit to being a 'what is he' person.  There are a few bloodlines that I particularly like and few that I would avidly avoid when I go buying for people.  Likewise there a few crosses I would avoid and even a few breeds I don't particularly like.
		
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Interesting that there are breeds and crosses you dislike, what breeds and why?


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## minesadouble (26 April 2017)

As someone else has already said you should take it as a compliment. I am interested in breeding and would only ever ask what something was or how it was bred if I was admiring it. If I didn't like the horse I'd keep my mouth firmly shut


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## JanetGeorge (26 April 2017)

I don't know much about WBs - but your chap's sire IS well bred.  http://www.stallionsonline.co.uk/stallion_37528.html   And nothing wrong with the damline either - I just had a quick look at some of the dam sire's forebears and found some well worth boasting about - like Nasrullah - http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/192621/fifty-years-of-nasrullah

With just a bit of work, I'll bet you'd find your chap's pedigree can be tracked back to both the Darley Arabian and the Godolphin Arabian.


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## LadySam (26 April 2017)

I like to ask this too, just to have a horsey chat and to figure out what I'm looking at.  If you were to tell me he was a TB/WB cross that would make perfect sense to me.  And if you were to add that they were good racing and jumping bloodlines, I would think it a thorough and succinct answer.


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## ycbm (26 April 2017)

LadySam said:



			I like to ask this too, just to have a horsey chat and to figure out what I'm looking at.  If you were to tell me he was a TB/WB cross that would make perfect sense to me.  And if you were to add that they were good racing and jumping bloodlines, I would think it a thorough and succinct answer.
		
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It wouldn't make sense to me, because the warmblood could be anything, even an arab, which would make him an Anglo Arab, a very different creature from most people's idea of a warmblood.

I never ask 'what is he', because the assumption that every horse must have known breeding to be any good would annoy me. But I often ask 'do you know how he's bred?'.


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## LadySam (26 April 2017)

ycbm said:



			It wouldn't make sense to me, because the warmblood could be anything, even an arab, which would make him an Anglo Arab, a very different creature from most people's idea of a warmblood.
		
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Really?  I've never known Arabs to be considered part of the WB family.  I would consider an Arab to be a hot blooded horse.  Different kettle of fish.

If someone says "warmblood" I assume a German line like a Holsteiner or Hanovarian, or other western European line like Dutch or Danish.  I know there's all sorts of things a WB can be but it at least gives me a ballpark type from a known group of breeds.



ycbm said:



			I never ask 'what is he', because the assumption that every horse must have known breeding to be any good would annoy me. But I often ask 'do you know how he's bred?'.
		
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Fair enough.  I agree about the known breeding and would never assume a horse was no good if it didn't have known breeding - I've had plenty of good horses who were bitzers!  I'm just curious when I ask (and "mongrel" would also be a perfectly acceptable answer to me! ).


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## Char0901 (26 April 2017)

Wow, thanks for all your replies everyone. It really is very interesting!

JanetGeorge thank you for looking into the lines. I'll see if I can piece it all together. He's 4 this year so not fully developed but when he lifts his tail and struts around the field, he does have the look of an Arab... I've always wondered where that might have come from! 

ycbm - you hit the nail on the head there. When people ask 'what is he' it feels as though it's being asked in a really condescending way if I can't reel off his family tree back to the 1600's or something! I can give a relatively straight answer to 'how is he bred' without feeling silly!

Thanks again for taking the time to explain it. He's the first horse I've ever had that I know the full history and breeding of. So interesting!


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## Meowy Catkin (26 April 2017)

LadySam said:



			Really?  I've never known Arabs to be considered part of the WB family.  I would consider an Arab to be a hot blooded horse.  Different kettle of fish.


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Arabs are hotbloods, but you can have them graded by warmblood studbooks and then their offspring (from registered warmblood mares) become eligible for registering with that studbook. You have to remember that in the past arab blood was essential to creating a lot of light riding horse breeds, so adding arab blood now isn't really adding something odd or weird, it's going back to the source. 

eg http://gestuetismer.de/front_content.php?client=5&lang=4&idart=22


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## LadySam (26 April 2017)

Thanks for that, that's really interesting.  I know Arab blood was part of the breeding in the way back when, but I didn't know the WB studbooks maintained that kind of relationship with Arab breeding stock today.  Fascinating!


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## Tetrarch 1911 (26 April 2017)

He's very nicely bred indeed from the TB bits of his pedigree! He has a nice dollop of sprint breeding from Forlorn River (sire of Shiela Crockatt, a 2-times winner out of a winning mare). Mariuson also had quite a bit of TB in his background, with lots of classic sires (Petition, Golden Cloud, Nearco). He has the Byerley Turk sire line, and I have no doubt he probably traces back to the Godolphin Barb and the Darley Arabian. All TBs trace back to one of them. He has some nice winning dam lines in there too. 

I can't find Double Centre yet. I'll keep digging ...



JanetGeorge said:



			I don't know much about WBs - but your chap's sire IS well bred.  http://www.stallionsonline.co.uk/stallion_37528.html   And nothing wrong with the damline either - I just had a quick look at some of the dam sire's forebears and found some well worth boasting about - like Nasrullah - http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/192621/fifty-years-of-nasrullah

With just a bit of work, I'll bet you'd find your chap's pedigree can be tracked back to both the Darley Arabian and the Godolphin Arabian.
		
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## JanetGeorge (26 April 2017)

Tetrarch 1911 said:



			He has the Byerley Turk sire line, and I have no doubt he probably traces back to the Godolphin Barb and the Darley Arabian. All TBs trace back to one of them. He has some nice winning dam lines in there too.
		
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Actually, a lot of them don't - it's SO irritating when you start tracking back and the TB stops BEFORE those 3.  This is the top sire line of my Irish Draught stallion - Nearco on the 6th line and when you go all the way, this is how that line ends.  http://www.idshs.com.au/perl/search.pl?op=tree&index=eclipse_(gb)_1764&gens=5  And Eclipse is on the dam line too - when you go right back, you find she was inbred to the Godolphin Arabian (via Highflyer) - http://www.idshs.com.au/perl/search.pl?op=tree&index=highflyer&gens=5  Not bad for 'pure-bred' Irish Draughts, lol.


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## Tetrarch 1911 (26 April 2017)

Frustrating, isn't it?? But have no fear - the Byerley Turk is in there. Highflyer was descended from the Byerley Turk through his sire who was the great stallion Herod, whose sire Tartar was a g-grandson of the Turk. The pedigree goes a lot further back than the ID society of Australia has recorded. Many of the foundation mares were Moroccan barbs introduced in the late 17th century. The society has a good portion of Eclipse's pedigree missing. Here you go!

http://www.pedigreequery.com/eclipse





JanetGeorge said:



			Actually, a lot of them don't - it's SO irritating when you start tracking back and the TB stops BEFORE those 3.  This is the top sire line of my Irish Draught stallion - Nearco on the 6th line and when you go all the way, this is how that line ends.  http://www.idshs.com.au/perl/search.pl?op=tree&index=eclipse_(gb)_1764&gens=5  And Eclipse is on the dam line too - when you go right back, you find she was inbred to the Godolphin Arabian (via Highflyer) - http://www.idshs.com.au/perl/search.pl?op=tree&index=highflyer&gens=5  Not bad for 'pure-bred' Irish Draughts, lol.
		
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## JanetGeorge (26 April 2017)

Tetrarch 1911 said:



			Frustrating, isn't it?? But have no fear - the Byerley Turk is in there. Highflyer was descended from the Byerley Turk through his sire who was the great stallion Herod, whose sire Tartar was a g-grandson of the Turk. The pedigree goes a lot further back than the ID society of Australia has recorded. Many of the foundation mares were Moroccan barbs introduced in the late 17th century. The society has a good portion of Eclipse's pedigree missing. Here you go!

http://www.pedigreequery.com/eclipse

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Brilliant!  The Australian ID database is 100 times better than ours - they leave legitimate TB parents and grand-parents out!  And at least I can start there with my IDs, lol.  It started when I had a number of youngsters with Tetrarch spots - and yes, he was there!


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## Tetrarch 1911 (26 April 2017)

Fabulous! If you have the brilliant-yet-hot Nasrullah, then you have The Tetrarch, the 'Spotted Wonder.' As you can tell by my moniker, I'm a bit of a fan ... 

As a teensy spin-off from the 'What is he?' query, I'm a big fan of the ID x TB type - a 'hunter' type. I have a big TB mare by Generous that I'm considering putting in foal to Avanti Amorous Archie this year. He has the scope and substance to complement her, and they both have super, teachable characters. I love his stock who seem so versatile. And if anyone asks me what the progeny 'is', I'll tell them it's a hunter!!!



JanetGeorge said:



			Brilliant!  The Australian ID database is 100 times better than ours - they leave legitimate TB parents and grand-parents out!  And at least I can start there with my IDs, lol.  It started when I had a number of youngsters with Tetrarch spots - and yes, he was there!
		
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## JanetGeorge (26 April 2017)

Tetrarch 1911 said:



			Fabulous! If you have the brilliant-yet-hot Nasrullah, then you have The Tetrarch, the 'Spotted Wonder.' As you can tell by my moniker, I'm a bit of a fan ... 

As a teensy spin-off from the 'What is he?' query, I'm a big fan of the ID x TB type - a 'hunter' type. I have a big TB mare by Generous that I'm considering putting in foal to Avanti Amorous Archie this year. He has the scope and substance to complement her, and they both have super, teachable characters. I love his stock who seem so versatile. And if anyone asks me what the progeny 'is', I'll tell them it's a hunter!!!
		
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lol, I had to tell Rita that Archie had The Tetrarch in his pedigree.  And one of my RID mares - whose grand-sire is Pride of Shaunlara.  His dam line goes back to The Tetrarch, via Fairyairy.

And your Archie foal should be a GOOD MW hunter!


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