# Novice riding my GP horse without permission?!



## Skewbald1 (2 December 2012)

I've just come back from a lovely relaxed two week holiday, I've been having a very intense time at work and me and hubby wanted to escape for a bit of winter sun. I left my pride and joy, my 17hh Hanoverian grand prix dressage horse on full livery at my yard with the understanding that his normal routine would be kept to (it's taken years of very careful management to get him to where he is now). This consists of being ridden in the morning with either turnout or time on the horse walker, weather depending, in the afternoon.
I'll admit that I'm the type of owner to wrap my horse up in cotton wool and I make sure his every need is catered for but, to be honest, I'm generally pretty chilled out most of the time!!
Anyway I came home very late last night and went straight to bed. My boy is on full livery so he's been seen to today as well as I have had a lot to sort out, although I did drive up to the yard very quickly before making Sunday dinner to give him a love. I had a quick check on Facebook when I got home to find pictures of a girl on the yard riding him!!! A girl who, although I know on first name basis, don't actually speak to or associate with. I called the yard owner and she has totally flipped it on me, had a total paddy saying that I'm pretty much overreacting and that she can't ride all the horses she has on livery!! To top it off this girl who was pictured riding him has four of her own to ride anyway, and while she is by no means a bad rider, she is a very LW teenager. My boy is a typical sensitive warmblood (and has to be to compete at the level he is at) and if she had pressed the wrong buttons, I dread to think what might have happened.
The thing is, if someone had approached me when I was at the yard and asked if they could have a ride on Ernie I would probably have agreed to it! Obviously under my permission, but I feel a little betrayed that I was the last one to know? I wasn't even asked?
I adore the yard the rest of the time but this just isn't sitting right with me.


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## be positive (2 December 2012)

If the YO cannot ride all the horses she is committed to she should have said so before you went away, you could then have made other arrangements to have the horse ridden by someone you trust. I am not surprised you are angry.


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## sarahann1 (2 December 2012)

Is this another livery or an employee?

If its an employee, the YO, should have made it clear a member of staff might be doing the riding. 

If its a livery then I'd be going spare! Bang out of order without your express permission.


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## Nicnac (2 December 2012)

It depends.  

Did you have a specific agreement with YO that only she/he is allowed to ride your horse?  If so, then YO is definitely in the wrong and you are right to be upset.

If not, I don't think you can complain.  If the girl works for the YO, then she will be insured under the yard insurance and has 4 horses of her own so assume a competent rider.


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## Goldenstar (2 December 2012)

Who normally rides your horse when you don't ?
I would be a bit taken aback to find another livery had been on my horse unless it was normal practise on the yard for other liverys to exercise them.
So no I don't think you are unreasonable to be a bit upset by this.
But is a worth spoiling a situation that's suits you is another question but next time you are away I would leave very clear instructions about what you expect.


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## Skewbald1 (2 December 2012)

Girl doesn't work for her, she is quite new on the yard, her and her brother are PC riders and have 4 between them (nothing bigger than 15.2). She is a livery just like me! However it is yard owner that hubby and I are paying to ride my boy when I can't get to the yard


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## Mongoose11 (2 December 2012)

I do understand what you are saying ... To a point but then you get to the bit where you say - if they had asked then you would have said yes.... So no harm done then? If this is another livery then I would go bonkers. If an employee then probably right to assume that more than the YO would exercise him.


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## Mongoose11 (2 December 2012)

So you pay this girl to ride him anyway?


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## Meowy Catkin (2 December 2012)

However it is her that hubby and I are paying to ride my boy
		
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I would not be happy.

ETA. I assume that the 'her' in the above quote means the YO.


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## Mongoose11 (2 December 2012)

Ahhh sorry i see you have now clarified.


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## Goldenstar (2 December 2012)

So you pay her to ride your horse but you are worried she's been pressing the wrong buttons when you are on holiday what Iam I missing here.


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## Goldenstar (2 December 2012)

So you pay her to ride your horse but you are worried she's been pressing the wrong buttons when you are on holiday what am  I missing here.

Ok read it again get it now ,if you pay the YO the YO should ride the horse.


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## Skewbald1 (2 December 2012)

Sorry - it is the yard owner I pay to ride Ernie and no one else- she is a beautiful sympathetic rider and she gets him going very well. The girl who I discovered has been riding him I generally don't have anything to do with and she hasn't ridden him before. Sorry not coming across too well I'm just a bit wound up!!


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## Shutterbug (2 December 2012)

Is the riding part of your livery agreement or do you pay extra for the riding?  If so I would be mad that they allowed someone else to do something I was paying them for more than anything.

ETA Sorry other posts have clarified - I would be livid that I was paying one person to exercise/ride my horse and she was getting another person to ride.


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## sarahann1 (2 December 2012)

Skewbald1 said:



			Girl doesn't work for her, she is quite new on the yard, her and her brother are PC riders and have 4 between them (nothing bigger than 15.2). She is a livery just like me! However it is yard owner that hubby and I are paying to ride my boy when I can't get to the yard
		
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In this case I'd be spitting massive nails of fire! The number of horses she has means nothing, I have two, doesn't mean under any circumstances I'd jump on a GP horse, I'd break it within seconds. 

My advice, find a yard that respects you and your horses.


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## mandwhy (2 December 2012)

If you have paid for a service then you should get it, and since the girl is not employed then I can see why you are angry. The girl wouldn't have been paid for it would she, maybe you should check that...I'd entirely blame the YO by the way, not the girl. If YO has taken money for a service and knowingly not done it then that is out of order!


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## Cinnamontoast (2 December 2012)

So the kid's just another livery? I would be furious.


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## Skewbald1 (2 December 2012)

Hevs said:



			Is the riding part of your livery agreement or do you pay extra for the riding?  If so I would be mad that they allowed someone else to do something I was paying them for more than anything.
		
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I pay extra (by quite a margin) for him to be professionally schooled, which is what he normally gets when I can't make it to the yard, on top of my usual livery. I occasionally pay for him to be hacked too but if I can't get to the yard and I don't want him schooling I usually just let him have the day off.


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## Goldenstar (2 December 2012)

Skewbald1 said:



			Sorry - it is the yard owner I pay to ride Ernie and no one else- she is a beautiful sympathetic rider and she gets him going very well. The girl who I discovered has been riding him I generally don't have anything to do with and she hasn't ridden him before. Sorry not coming across too well I'm just a bit wound up!!
		
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Deep breath hot bath go to bed go and ride your horse tomorrow and have a calm disscussion with the YO I don't think you should let it pass without letting the YO know you are deeply unhappy there's no way I would allow even my mokes to be ridden by someone I had not seen ride them when I was not there.


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## Copperpot (2 December 2012)

Tbh I don't think it matters how big the horse is, what he is etc, your paying the YO to ride him and no one else. She doesn't have the right to offer someone else the ride.


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## Nicnac (2 December 2012)

Skewbald1 said:



			Sorry - it is the yard owner I pay to ride Ernie and no one else- she is a beautiful sympathetic rider and she gets him going very well. The girl who I discovered has been riding him I generally don't have anything to do with and she hasn't ridden him before. Sorry not coming across too well I'm just a bit wound up!!
		
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Thanks for clarification - then you have every right to be furious. Not sure whether I would stay at that yard in your position as YO has broken your trust & acted fraudulently by agreeing to be paid for a service she has not supplied.


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## swintondesire (2 December 2012)

If it was me who had a GP horse I would make sure they both new I was not happy about it. I would question  about taking my money back from there service as its was not followed through with the yard own riding him. And I would consider moving yards as I would find it will create a atmosphere not sure for you but I would go somewhere where I knew I could trust them with my very expensive pride and joy! Sorry I feel a little annoyed for you lol


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## sarahann1 (2 December 2012)

Copperpot said:



			Tbh I don't think it matters how big the horse is, what he is etc, your paying the YO to ride him and no one else. She doesn't have the right to offer someone else the ride.
		
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This, I'd have been very unhappy if someone rode my wee coblet or my old ID without my express permission when they were in work.


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## FestiveBoomBoom (2 December 2012)

The Y/O is 100% in the wrong and I would be furious if I were you. I would also be taking my custom elsewhere.


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## goldenmint (2 December 2012)

I would also be livid!

It would make me question YO tbh. If you hadn't seen the pictures would she have even told you, or just accepted payment for a service she hasn't supplied. 

I would be having a rather heated convo with yo and I would prob be looking at new yards.


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## Auslander (2 December 2012)

I would be absolutely LIVID. My horse has retired from competition, but is the remains of a very nice dressage horse, with all the advanced buttons installed. There is NO WAY that I would allow anyone to ride him in the school without me present, unless I had seen them ride him, and knew that they were as competent, or more competent than me. I have no issue with putting people who want to learn the advanced stuff on him, with me there to oversee, but if I found out that someone I hadn't pre-approved had been riding him in my absence, I would be beyond furious. Hacking him wouldn't be such a problem, as he's well behaved, but I'd still want to be asked first. 

And I'm talking about a horse who isn't competing any more...one who's still actively out there on the circuit...Jesus!!


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## Skewbald1 (2 December 2012)

Thank you for the response. It was the fact that I am the last to know what is going on with my own horse, I don't even know if she is insured or not. From the looks of the pictures the girl has hacked him on the road too. It takes some guts for even me to hack him round the roads as he is, like I said, very very sensitive and can find the whole ordeal mind blowing. Yard owner is now acting as though I should be thankful for it, like she was doing me a favour!! I guess this is the downside of having a horse on full livery, you don't know the ins and outs like you do when you're on DIY


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## Sparkles (2 December 2012)

I would be livid. Especially out hacking, on the roads!!!!


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## be positive (2 December 2012)

I think if the YO does not understand why you are angry, it also seems that this was not just a one off as she was too busy, I would look to move, the trust you had will never be there again and the fact that you are meant to be grateful for this young girl riding your special horse is beyond belief.


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## goldenmint (2 December 2012)

If YO can't understand why you are upset I would point her in the direction of this thread TBH.


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## Goldenstar (2 December 2012)

Skewbald1 said:



			Thank you for the response. It was the fact that I am the last to know what is going on with my own horse, I don't even know if she is insured or not. From the looks of the pictures the girl has hacked him on the road too. It takes some guts for even me to hack him round the roads as he is, like I said, very very sensitive and can find the whole ordeal mind blowing. Yard owner is now acting as though I should be thankful for it, like she was doing me a favour!! I guess this is the downside of having a horse on full livery, you don't know the ins and outs like you do when you're on DIY
		
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I fear it may be necessary to move .
The young girl would not have been covered on your insurance as it was without your permission.


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## colour me in (2 December 2012)

Ooh id be spitting feathers at this point! Quickly followed by a harshly worded scentence! Was your y/o aware the girl has been riding your boy? Gosh what a bad situation! I'd be having a strongly worded conversation with both parties regarding this and would be definitely considering whether this establishment was right for your boys needs. Blingy this is the last thing you need after a nice holiday!


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## Skewbald1 (2 December 2012)

I'm stewing now. It's just taken so long to get him to where he is, I've invested a lot of time (and money!!) to get him to where he is, it feels like it has been totally disregarded. I don't like taking him round the roads (although we do like to go for a canter through the countryside) as I don't like to risk it. He spooks at his own shadow! He's a big muscly boy, and if he'd decided to spook and cart himself back home there would have been no way she could have stopped him.
It's such a shame as I looove the yard the rest of the time, and my boy loves it there to. She events up to 1* level and I bet she wouldn't have liked it had it been the other way around.


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## Fimbacob (2 December 2012)

I would definitely vote with my feet. You would never be able to go away again without constantly worrying what is happening with your horse.


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## Goldenstar (2 December 2012)

Don't think I would be tearing a strip off the young girl it's not her fault.


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## wren123 (2 December 2012)

I would be absolutely livid, indeed I have been in your position, so I do know exactly how you feel and my pony was moved out of the yard asap!

This was a few years ago and my pony was certainly not as valuble as yours but she was on part livery with all the work done but no exercise just turn out every day. Went down the yard one day when I wasn't expected to find her being used in a lesson and ridden by a very novice working pupil, so I do feel your annoyance. The YO had the cheek to try and turn it round too saying it was a bonus that my mare was being exercised!


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## imr (2 December 2012)

I would be annoyed. But I think take a deep breath and don't make a huge drama as there is no point. Instead I would wait until you are not angry any more and you need him ridden again and then arrange it, explicitly agreeing who what and where. 
Reason I say this is otherwise you like yard, most yards have no one remotely suitable to ride this kind of horse and therefore leaving in a huff is a total own goal. Also, I think there may have been some misunderstandings- you refer to full livery and I can see how if you paid for full livery inc exercise the YO may have thought who exercised was up to her, she just had to get it done. You obviously thought what you agreed was to pay for her to ride,not the same thing but you can see how a mutual misunderstanding can have arisen. To be honest I am surprised this happened as I would have imagined she would love to sit on a g p horse and wouldn't have let anyone near it!


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## CalllyH (2 December 2012)

I would be furious, furious. If the yard owner had said they were short staffed or struggeling that week and she had extra help then it may have ben different. 

To me it sounds like they were dying to have a play about with a nice horse. To put pictures on Facebook is disgusting. Maybe refuse to pay for those days as you haven't got the service you expected. I hope you copied the pictures from Facebook just incase. 

What if he had gone lame or anything had happened? They sound seriously stupid IMO.


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## Meowy Catkin (2 December 2012)

I would be looking for a new yard too. It's horrible when you don't trust the YO and sadly she has proved that she can't be trusted.


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## Skewbald1 (2 December 2012)

Thanks again everyone for the input. I appreciate all your responses and it's good to know that I'm not alone in feeling this. The thing is, she refuses to hack him on the roads. She's more than happy to take him through the countryside but finds him too much on the road (its fair to say I've had my fair share of funny looks when they see a horse the size of a house passaging down the road) so the fact that she more than willingly let such a young LW teenager out on him has really shocked me. However like imr said above, there aren't too many places which can accommodate him.


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## mandwhy (2 December 2012)

I would be even more livid with the way she is reacting! She sounds like she is not at all bothered and would happily do it again like you are being some sort of dressage diva - I think anyone would be annoyed! 

The worst thing is that you have paid her for this service, have you mentioned this? Has your money gone to her for doing F all, or to the girl? 

And the fact she wouldn't hack him out herself but puts a teenager who doesn't know any better in that position is ridiculous! 

I would be curious to see how the teenager got on with the hack mind you. 

Wouldnt normally say leave the yard, but if she doesn't even apologise properly and admit it was the wrong thing to do I'd be sorely tempted.


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## Goldenstar (2 December 2012)

It's not an easy one at all but you need to weigh up everything it's no small thing for the horse to change yards .
But I am thinking you are talking  about a teenager imagine if something awful had happened to her it does not bear thinking about .
Has something happened to cause this serious lapse  of judgement by the YO .


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## imr (2 December 2012)

Another thought is can you get your trainer or someone else suitably skilled to ride when you cannot, in which case may be easier to move and/or deal with issue. Or even send him to trainer when you are on hols? 
Ps I'm glad he came to no real harm, that's the only saving grace


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## Goldenstar (2 December 2012)

mandwhy said:



			I would be even more livid with the way she is reacting! She sounds like she is not at all bothered and would happily do it again like you are being some sort of dressage diva - I think anyone would be annoyed! 

The worst thing is that you have paid her for this service, have you mentioned this? Has your money gone to her for doing F all, or to the girl? 

And the fact she wouldn't hack him out herself but puts a teenager who doesn't know any better in that position is ridiculous! 

I would be curious to see how the teenager got on with the hack mind you. 

Wouldnt normally say leave the yard, but if she doesn't even apologise properly and admit it was the wrong thing to do I'd be sorely tempted.
		
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YOer is probally being defensive because she knows she's in the wrong.


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## Adopter (2 December 2012)

I would be most upset in your position, and to find pictures of your horse posted on facebook, is beyound belief.

I do not see how the YO can think this is ok, a valuable horse put at risk by another livery client without your express permission.  

If YO can not ride all, then should be  honest so you can make arrangements that you are happy with.

Do hope you can sort it as you sound happy with yard otherwise, but I do not think you are over reacting.


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## Skewbald1 (3 December 2012)

As far as I know she wasn't even going to mention it to me. I don't know why she thought it was OK, and on top of this Ernie and I have a very exciting opportunity coming up, internationally, so if anything had happened to him it would have totally ruined this opportunity for us. 
Most of the time when she is riding someone else's horse the owners are there to watch. A lot of the time, due to work, I leave him in her hands, sometimes at the last minute, so perhaps she thinks she can get away with it. I dread to think what my trainer will say when she finds out, as she's been training Ernie and I for years, and she's as essential as Ernie is for our success. Just pondering over what to do now


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## Skewbald1 (3 December 2012)

Oops, double posted somehow


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## Ladyinred (3 December 2012)

A 'hands - up' confession here. Many many years ago I was head girl at a big yard and we had a dressage horse come on a months livery while owner went abroad for a long holiday. YO was supposed to ride him every day but he never enjoyed riding this little horse... they just never clicked and he used to moan like crazy about him. YO went off showing for a couple days and I couldn't resist having a ride..I was an AI and very experienced with many types of horses and had even been offered a job by a leading dressage rider of the day so I thought I knew it all!!  All I can say is thank god we were in an indoor school with nowhere to go because if there was ever a wrong button then I managed to press it. It was a disaster. Sensitive wasn't the name for this poor lad, I had him so confused he was going every which way.

I felt awful and confessed to YO when he got home. Fortunately for me and for the horse, no lasting damage was done but it could have been very different.

Even now, forty years later, I feel embarrassed about it and I have every sympathy for the way you are feeling. That standard horse is as different as driving a Ferrari when you are used to a landrover.

You say you are pondering what to do now.. could your trainer not ride him for you if you are not able to? Maybe not as often as you like, but I feel having a few extra days off might be better than having a relative novice on a horse like yours.


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## Adopter (3 December 2012)

I think you pay for full livery plus extra you have a right to expect yourself and your horse treated with respect, and the YO as a competitor knows that just anybody does not climb on top of a valuable horse.

One of the horses in our family is on full livery, and when the owner is away the YO personally supervisies the horse, and because he is on full livery you expect a service that is secure and trustworthy and maintains the standards you pay for.

Any business that relies on trust puts their whole livelyhood on the line by breaking the trust between themselves and a client.


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## AnneCam (3 December 2012)

"Novice riding my horse" but she's eventing at 1* at quite a young age, which doesn't sound anything like my idea of a novice.

Are you sure she's not being paid by YO to school some of the liveries?? Sounds like the kind of deal ambitious younger person with a bit of time on a yard with some good horses would go for in a shot.

If your full livery contract was expicility that all ridden exercise was to be with YO in saddle, then she's out of order. But all the full liveries I've known had only the stipulation that it needs to be a member of staff riding (or not for the working liveries).

I hope Ernie hasn't been upset by meeting his unexpected new jockey.


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## Bedlam (3 December 2012)

Skewbald1 said:



			Thank you for the response. It was the fact that I am the last to know what is going on with my own horse, I don't even know if she is insured or not. From the looks of the pictures the girl has hacked him on the road too. It takes some guts for even me to hack him round the roads as he is, like I said, very very sensitive and can find the whole ordeal mind blowing. Yard owner is now acting as though I should be thankful for it, like she was doing me a favour!! I guess this is the downside of having a horse on full livery, you don't know the ins and outs like you do when you're on DIY
		
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OK - so I'm with you on the ....I'm paying for something to happen this way so that's the way it happens....  and also on the ......this is who rides my horse and that's it.......

But you've also said some stuff that I don't get. 

This lightwieght teenager has apparently hacked your horse out. On the road. Dear God.

But hang on - she's still alive - and so is your horse?

I get the fact that GP horses are highly skilled atheletes. And I also get ( as said before) that it is inexcusable that someone else rode your horse without your permission. But I just do start to wonder whether or not your horse would benefit from a bit of time out....?

Dressage is brilliant and often a horse that goes off on a hack down the road comes back to the school refreshed and happy to go on being a dressage diva.


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## Skewbald1 (3 December 2012)

Ladyinred said:



			A 'hands - up' confession here. Many many years ago I was head girl at a big yard and we had a dressage horse come on a months livery while owner went abroad for a long holiday. YO was supposed to ride him every day but he never enjoyed riding this little horse... they just never clicked and he used to moan like crazy about him. YO went off showing for a couple days and I couldn't resist having a ride..I was an AI and very experienced with many types of horses and had even been offered a job by a leading dressage rider of the day so I thought I knew it all!!  All I can say is thank god we were in an indoor school with nowhere to go because if there was ever a wrong button then I managed to press it. It was a disaster. Sensitive wasn't the name for this poor lad, I had him so confused he was going every which way.

I felt awful and confessed to YO when he got home. Fortunately for me and for the horse, no lasting damage was done but it could have been very different.

Even now, forty years later, I feel embarrassed about it and I have every sympathy for the way you are feeling. That standard horse is as different as driving a Ferrari when you are used to a landrover.

You say you are pondering what to do now.. could your trainer not ride him for you if you are not able to? Maybe not as often as you like, but I feel having a few extra days off might be better than having a relative novice on a horse like yours.
		
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Thanks for sharing that. I'm not angry at the girl for riding him, I would have jumped at the chance too at her age.. I'm very lucky to have my boy but if someone had genuinely wanted the chance to ride him I would (most of the time) let them at least sit on him. If he were too much for them or they weren't comfortable (he can, not surprisingly, be quite intimidating) then they could get off. 
The only thing is if my trainer were to ride him more often I'd probably have to send him to her yard. She travels to our yard twice a week as it is, if I wanted her to see him more often he'd probably have to live with her and I'd miss him too much!



Adopter said:



			I think you pay for full livery plus extra you have a right to expect yourself and your horse treated with respect, and the YO as a competitor knows that just anybody does not climb on top of a valuable horse.

One of the horses in our family is on full livery, and when the owner is away the YO personally supervisies the horse, and because he is on full livery you expect a service that is secure and trustworthy and maintains the standards you pay for.

Any business that relies on trust puts their whole livelyhood on the line by breaking the trust between themselves and a client.
		
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She very very rarely let's anyone else on her top horse and I totally understand that. I wouldn't go getting on just anyone's horse, regardless as to whether they were a happy hacker or a GP horse.



AnneCam said:



			"Novice riding my horse" but she's eventing at 1* at quite a young age, which doesn't sound anything like my idea of a novice.

Are you sure she's not being paid by YO to school some of the liveries?? Sounds like the kind of deal ambitious younger person with a bit of time on a yard with some good horses would go for in a shot.

If your full livery contract was expicility that all ridden exercise was to be with YO in saddle, then she's out of order. But all the full liveries I've known had only the stipulation that it needs to be a member of staff riding (or not for the working liveries).

I hope Ernie hasn't been upset by meeting his unexpected new jockey.
		
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the yard owner is the 1* rider, the girl who rode him is only about 14 and has only been involved in horses for a couple of years so understandably isn't massively experienced. Ernie is luckily quite comfortable with new riders if they don't fuss!


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## becca1305 (3 December 2012)

I would be incredibly pissed tbh. Not only is it incredibly rude, and could have set you and your horse back, its also stupid- what would she have done if the girl had injured herself? Were the parents even aware she had asked their daughter to ride your horse? and theres also the potential of liability issues if the girl wasn't covered under employee insurance or potentially invalidated her own if she was paid.  

A friend of mine had a similar scenario when she was on holiday the YO let someone (a friend of a friend who she didn't know!) take her horse out hunting! The agreement was that the horse would be schooled by YO or hacked by one of her employees, as it always has been in the past (to her knowledge!). She was angry but had a quiet word and the YO apologised, so she let it slide, I did offer her a stable at mine until she found somewhere else if she decided she wanted to leave immediately. I think its quite a big deal to trust someone enough to look after your horse on a full livery basis and to betray that trust is unacceptable.

If your YO was reasonably explaining to you that she either a) misunderstood about who could ride him, and/or b) made a mistake and was really sorry, then I would be inclined to leave it be. However ranting at a paying client daring to question why a particular person was riding their own horse?! I think I'd have another calm discussion in person to make sure no-ones getting the wrong end of the stick and if she rants off again I'd vote with my feet as if she can't calmly apologise for the mistake/misunderstanding and promise it won't happen again then I don't see how you could trust her to look after your horse as you ask.


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## FfionWinnie (3 December 2012)

It would make me wonder if this wasn't the first time and if the YO was indeed schooling him when supposed to. 

I'd be ready for the YO to get wind of this thread as well by the way...


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## 3bh (3 December 2012)

She events to 1* and yet your thread title calls her a Novice?!


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## quirky (3 December 2012)

Your YO obviously thinks the girl capable enough to ride him and she may even be paying her to ride for her.
You keep saying about her being LW, I'd rather that than a biffer tbh.
Can somebody really undo years of work in 2 weeks ?


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## Ladyinred (3 December 2012)

3bh said:



			She events to 1* and yet your thread title calls her a Novice?!
		
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If you read the whole thread you will see that it is the YO who events to 1*. The novice is a 14 year old pony clubber who has only been riding two/three years.


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## wingedhorse (3 December 2012)

Yes with a high level dressage horse you can undo years of training with a few rides.


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## wingedhorse (3 December 2012)

I would be furious. I think if there is nowhere suitable to move to and you are otherwise happy, I would try and get it in writing that only YO rides horse. Perhaps stating it is for insurance purposes. Leaving no room for doubt. And clarify that if YO can't or doesn't want to ride him giving him the day off is acceptable rather than finding an alternative rider.


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## Archangel (3 December 2012)

I would be furious, out on the roads they could have met anything or the horse might just have boiled over  - she put your horse and the young rider at risk and took money for it.  How unprofessional. In your shoes I wouldn't be able to trust her again.


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## GeeUp&Go (3 December 2012)

wingedhorse said:



			Yes with a high level dressage horse you can undo years of training with a few rides.
		
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You can ruin a horse in a few minutes, even


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## JillA (3 December 2012)

I only read the first page, I'm sorry, but I think it is time to sit down with your YO and let her know how you feel, without blame or aggression. The fact that she over reacted suggests she was defensive and aware she had not treated you fairly.
Point out that you pay for her to ride him in your absence, not just anyone, that is the contract and if she doesn't have the time, she should make it clear at the start who will be doing the exercising. Maybe she wasn't clear on that, maybe she was. Then you can make a choice - do you want to accept a lesser rider, or look elsewhere for someone to work your horse.
Nothing to do with the competence of this girl, it has all to do with the contract between you and YO. Your ultimate sanction of course is to move - are you prepared to do that?
The past is done, you need to ensure your wishes are adhered to in future so that if you choose to you can go away on holiday confident things are going as you want them to.


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## Spyda (3 December 2012)

If the girl events up to 1* then she's not exactly a 'novice' as per title, is she?

That said, if I was in your situation I'd be livid. How dare YO allow just anyone to ride your horse without your express prior permission - particularly when being paid _herself_ for the service. I had same problem years ago with a young TB stallion I had on livery. Discovered YO was letting her 13 year old daughter walk him down to his turnout field on the road every morning before school, in just a plain headcollar. I was livid. How stupid can you get??   I moved, pronto.

However, I had somewhere to go. If you dont OP, then be careful how you deal with the situation - but DO raise the complaint. Definitely. The insurance situation alone would worry me? Let alone how he might ride. Grrrrrr..... The cheek.


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## Worried1 (3 December 2012)

I'd be furious if someone rode my horse without permission... It's a serious breach of trust. I would be moving my horse immediately! No amount of grown up discussion could amend this.

However, seeing that nothing awful happened try and take a positive from it, and if she hacked him on the road and all was ok, he might have enjoyed a pressure free ride! Bit like when the girls occasionally ride Blitz, he has a whale of a time and so do they.


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## Ladyinred (3 December 2012)

Spyda said:



			If the girl events up to 1* then she's not exactly a 'novice' as per title, is she?

.
		
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If you read the whole thread you will see that it is the YO who events to 1*. The novice is a 14 year old pony clubber who has only been riding two/three years


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## Shysmum (3 December 2012)

I would be totally furious if I paid for something, and then something else happened. This other livery could have ridden your horse badly apart from anything else. Grrrrrr.


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## Spyda (3 December 2012)

Ladyinred said:



			If you read the whole thread you will see that it is the YO who events to 1*. The novice is a 14 year old pony clubber who has only been riding two/three years
		
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Sorry! I _have_ read whole post but where it stated '_she_ events up to 1*' it really wasn't clear who OP was referring to. Thanks for the clarification, though.


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## MrsNorris (3 December 2012)

Why don't people read the thread PROPERLY before posting!!! So annoying!
 I'd be hopping mad OP and my horse is just a bog standard job. But don''t cut off your nose to spite your face. If you love the yard and your horse is happy, try to sort it out, you may struggle to find another suitable yard and it'll be disruptive for your horse to have to move. Good luck.


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## Fourlegsgood (3 December 2012)

It appears there are all the normal "I'd be furious/livid, you must move yards immediately" responses but really isn't the best plan to sit down with the yard owner and have a clearing of the air and then get on with life? You say you like the yard and your clearly like the yard owners riding so unless you want to back yourself into a corner where you have to move yards then I would tend to sort the situation out rather than turn it into a full blown row.

Sometimes its even best to admit to having contributed to the problem yourself ie say it was perhaps your fault for not being clear about who you want to ride your horse etc etc (not saying it was your fault, just that tactically sometimes its best to throw that in).


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## Shysmum (3 December 2012)

I wouldn't move yards, but I'd want a good explanation, and a refund on any costs I had paid for the YO to ride. 

not a nice situation to find yourself in.


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## yannialice (3 December 2012)

I would be furious, especially if you have never seen them ride before. also I class my self as a competent, confident and experienced rider but a gp horse i'd push the wrong buttons!!!!
Is the yard owner mad. She would have been better getting some extra time in the horse walker than letting a random ride if she didn't have time.
Sorry for ;ack of punctuation......ranting!!!


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## Leg_end (3 December 2012)

If you made it clear that YO was the only one to ride then I would be spitting feathers and my boy is a million miles away from being a GP horse!

I think I would have a chat with YO to understand what happened and why. I would explain how upset you are and why. State very clearly that no one is to ride him but you and YO and if she does not have time or doesn't want to ride him then you will find an alternative arrangement. 

I think the reaction to the conversation would make me decide what to do but my worry would be what is happening when you aren't there that she says is being done at the moment. 

I hate confrontation but it does annoy me when you pay for a specific service to find it hasn't happened. Good luck!


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## Gingerwitch (3 December 2012)

Skewbald1 said:



			Thank you for the response. It was the fact that I am the last to know what is going on with my own horse, I don't even know if she is insured or not. From the looks of the pictures the girl has hacked him on the road too. It takes some guts for even me to hack him round the roads as he is, like I said, very very sensitive and can find the whole ordeal mind blowing. Yard owner is now acting as though I should be thankful for it, like she was doing me a favour!! I guess this is the downside of having a horse on full livery, you don't know the ins and outs like you do when you're on DIY
		
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My horses are on full livery and i make sure i know exactly what goes on.
You need to find a new yard, now this morning - even if it is a stop gap you can demand that the girl takes down the photos off face book and my horse would be removed by tomorrow morning and by christ would everyone know the exact reason for it.  What would have happend if your horse had been hit by a car ? how do you know what this person had done damage wise either mentally or physically.

Sorry the yard owner/manager would be getting a verbal slapping


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## Gingerwitch (3 December 2012)

imr said:



			Another thought is can you get your trainer or someone else suitably skilled to ride when you cannot, in which case may be easier to move and/or deal with issue. Or even send him to trainer when you are on hols? 
Ps I'm glad he came to no real harm, that's the only saving grace
		
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She wont know that till she has ridden him though will she ?


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## Luci07 (3 December 2012)

As someone who has evented and will be again. ... 1* is a good aim...but it's riding at 1* not 4* and the dressage element is similar to a good Novice BD dressage test. Hardly riding at Carl Hesters level!

I would wonder what else has gone on as well. From a practical perspective, if there had been an accident, would your insurance have covered your horse ? Did the girl have her own as YOURS would not have covered her for personal injury. 

You pay for full livery. You pay on the understanding that your YO rides the horse. We have a mix of full and part liveries on the yard and there is not a cat in hells chance that another livery would ride another liveries horse UNLESS with full permission. Even the yard staff tend to have "their" horses they ride.

Unless the YO apologised and refunded the money, I would move as trust would be gone. You are paying for a service and your horse to be worked. It is therefore NOT being done as a favour!


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## Dumbo (3 December 2012)

Sorry to here this story, I can fully understand how you feel!
My horse is on part livery (not to be ridden) but I have seen photos of a girl hacking him (with the rest of the yard who when asked have denied ever seeing him ridden!) My horse is a very unfit tb, I'm doing basic flatwork with him and he was lame all summer. She told me that she had jumped him and he jumps like a stag etc. I'm fuming so moving yards next january. You should move yours!


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## Goldenstar (3 December 2012)

Crimbowitch said:



			My horses are on full livery and i make sure i know exactly what goes on.
You need to find a new yard, now this morning - even if it is a stop gap you can demand that the girl takes down the photos off face book and my horse would be removed by tomorrow morning and by christ would everyone know the exact reason for it.  What would have happend if your horse had been hit by a car ? how do you know what this person had done damage wise either mentally or physically.

Sorry the yard owner/manager would be getting a verbal slapping
		
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I don't know you can say you know exactly what goes on unless you have granny cam thing in the stable and paddock.
I think OP is right not to consider stop gap yards and the like that sort of thing is very damaging from some horses moving yards is very similar to the horse as being sold a working owner is only with the horse a few hours a day at best so it's a severe overestimation of the owners part in a horses life that they don't don't think everything is different and worrying when they change homes .
One of mine had been on four yards in the year before I bought him (same owner) he's now a different horse in his temperament I would like to think its because I a marvellous horse carer but really it's because he's been a year in one place although it is a very nice place to be.
This person is a fourteen yo child and blameless in this it would be extremly wrong to make this an awful experiance for her however if I was OP I would be speaking to her parents and explaining the seriousness of the situation the potential ramifications if it had gone wrong to the horse and the child who would have not be insured on OP's cover the child was riding without the owners permission.
A grown up forthright disscussion with the YO is called for a verbal slapping will be women arguing something which has no place in the relationship between a customner discussion a severe failure in the service provided to valuable and potentialy easily damaged damaged horse.
I sense OP is conflicted,  moving yards with that level of horse is not easy and going to the trainers seems to be the only other option ATM then OP can not ride daily .
It's a good job the pictures where on FB that's how OP found out.


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## Gingerwitch (3 December 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I don't know you can say you know exactly what goes on unless you have granny cam thing in the stable and paddock.
I think OP is right not to consider stop gap yards and the like that sort of thing is very damaging from some horses moving yards is very similar to the horse as being sold a working owner is only with the horse a few hours a day at best so it's a severe overestimation of the owners part in a horses life that they don't don't think everything is different and worrying when they change homes .
One of mine had been on four yards in the year before I bought him (same owner) he's now a different horse in his temperament I would like to think its because I a marvellous horse carer but really it's because he's been a year in one place although it is a very nice place to be.
This person is a fourteen yo child and blameless in this it would be extremly wrong to make this an awful experiance for her however if I was OP I would be speaking to her parents and explaining the seriousness of the situation the potential ramifications if it had gone wrong to the horse and the child who would have not be insured on OP's cover the child was riding without the owners permission.
A grown up forthright disscussion with the YO is called for a verbal slapping will be women arguing something which has no place in the relationship between a customner discussion a severe failure in the service provided to valuable and potentialy easily damaged damaged horse.
I sense OP is conflicted,  moving yards with that level of horse is not easy and going to the trainers seems to be the only other option ATM then OP can not ride daily .
It's a good job the pictures where on FB that's how OP found out.
		
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I know exactly what goes on as i feed, turn out and bring in myself to make sure i know exactly what goes on..... in the main for reasons not as serious as the op.... when i first returned from county durham i put my horse on full livery... i had agreed before what the turn out arrangements were... horses out by 9am in at 3.30, last check 5pm, skipped, hayed and waters done..... where i moved to i could choose to drive past the yard on my way to work and from work..... and just moving into a house you have all the normal things being delivered.... i started to get concerned that my horse was not in the field when i drove past in a morn.... ? so had a week off work - and would park up and then walk to the yard along the public footpaths..... urm 9am was more like 10.30..... 3.30 was more like 2pm... and even though i waited for a week i never saw anyone come back from 4pm till 5.30pm - so sorry i have become rather an untrustful sod - and i treat full livery as assisted livery, but i suppose for many that negates the point of being on full livery


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## Gingerwitch (3 December 2012)

Daft question.... did the girl by any chance pay to ride your horse? I do know of a similar situation when the ym was paid to work a clients horse.. and the ym used the horse to give lessons on.... that was a bit of a heated saturday afternoon when the young girl told the woman that she should find the horse a lot more forward going, as she had had a lesson on smacking the horse to get her off the leg.... best entertainment i have ever seen, 60 year old women cant half be quick when they want to be !


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## Roasted Chestnuts (3 December 2012)

OP I wouldn't jump ship if this is the only thing that has annoyed you in the time you have been there.

Yes I would be mightily pi$$ed off had my horse been ridden by someone not approved by me (and they aren't even proper comp ponies) but your very sensitive horse is settled and happy there and do you really want to risk unsettling him with a move when you yourself have said you have an international occasion to attend?

I would ride the horse, if no harm done then I would go for a coffee with YO and explain in a neutral setting that what happened was not acceptable and if she cannot find the time in future to let you know and then you can sort something out  takes the prrssure of YO and it means that this won't happen again.

She did get defensive by the sounds of it so probably felt bad. I would also get her to tell the livery to remove the pics from FB and let it go at that. 

Yes I imagine your livid, I woiuld be but making snap decisions and moving your horse based on righteous indignation isn't the best time to be doing it.

I'm NOT a livery yard person, and I sometimes don't understand how some folk can run yards the way they do and expect custom (worked in a yard for over ten years BTW) but if everything else is fine and you can sort this out why upset your horse when everything else is the way you both like it.


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## Wagtail (3 December 2012)

Unbelievable! I am a yard owner, and yes, occasionally am unable to fit in riding a livery's horse, but if that's the case, then I let them know, and obviously don't charge them. It would be unthinkable for me to allow another livery to exercise the horse! Liveries do occasionally ride one another's horses, but that is an arrangement made between them. Nothing to do with me.


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## kerilli (3 December 2012)

I'd be beyond livid. He should have gone on the horsewalker if YO didn't have time to ride him. For _anyone _else to ride him, without your express permission, especially in dangerous situations such as on roads, is absolutely inexcusable. I'd have him out of there elsewhere asap... if YO can't be trusted, and hasn't even apologised... no way.


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## Tinsel Town (3 December 2012)

oh my god I would have gone mental! again like you tho if asked first probably would have said yes. I would not be happy to be paying for full livery and then for the YO to let any tom dick or harry ride my precious boy! If she didnt have time to ride him she should have told you before you went away or worked late!!!!    grrrrrr!!!!


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## Gingerwitch (3 December 2012)

Its the road thing that has got me the most....the YO experinaced at 1* wont hack the GP horse.... but has allowed a 14 year old Pony Club person to ride - was she off school or did she do this early morn or early evening - or was it on a weekend ?

And whislt i agree with what folk say about not upsetting the horse... as the owner i would be really upset at leaving the horse in the care of people that have not only let me down, but have put my horse in an extreamly dangerous position.

OP on a brighter note - where are you off to internationally and when are you travelling ?


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## wench (3 December 2012)

Op what does your "normal" full livery package include? Riding or no riding? Is it specifically agreed in your livery contract who will ride him?

Or

Did you "just" ask YO to keep him exercised, or specifically state that only YO was to ride? I often find at work, even if you think you have spelt something out in black and White, it often comes back not quite how you wanted. 

I would be mad about paying £YO for exercising horse when all you got was £small child. I would ask for a refund on the exercise costs.


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## Cortez (3 December 2012)

I don't think it has anything to do with who was paid to do what; it's all about the pure cheek (not to mention the madness) of putting a 14 year old on a competitive Grand Prix dressage horse. The ramifications, for the child, the horse, and the potential undoing of years of training, are horrendous. I for one would be incandescent. I would have a word (several, and possibly non too polite) with the YO, and make different arrangements for future absences. I don't think I would contemplate moving, but I would expect the YO to apologise, and up her game in future.


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## Goldenstar (3 December 2012)

Cortez said:



			I don't think it has anything to do with who was paid to do what; it's all about the pure cheek (not to mention the madness) of putting a 14 year old on a competitive Grand Prix dressage horse. The ramifications, for the child, the horse, and the potential undoing of years of training, are horrendous. I for one would be incandescent. I would have a word (several, and possibly non too polite) with the YO, and make different arrangements for future absences. I don't think I would contemplate moving, but I would expect the YO to apologise, and up her game in future.
		
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I agree with all this I would be not trusting now if Op work schedule allowed it I would be turning up at odd times and seeing what's going on or getting a trusted friend to go and I would definatly be getting checks by a third party at different times daily when away from now on.


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## Gingerwitch (3 December 2012)

Face book has alot to answer for doesn't it - and i mean that in a good way - you would never of found out would you? that is why i was asking when the 14 year old had ridden your GP horse - surely somone on the yard must have seen what was going on - do you see many people on the yard.... Didn't some one else post recently that they had found our that their horse was being used to go on rides with without there permission too


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (3 December 2012)

id go insane, id go absolutely insane.
i would refuse to pay the charge for riding and id want grovelling apologies and promises for it to NEVER happen again (and next time you go away would have a few reliable spies report back).

thats if i loved the yard, if i didnt, id move.


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## Goldenstar (3 December 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			id go insane, id go absolutely insane.
i would refuse to pay the charge for riding and id want grovelling apologies and promises for it to NEVER happen again (and next time you go away would have a few reliable spies report back).

thats if i loved the yard, if i didnt, id move.
		
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I can feel your blood pressure over the Internet LOL


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## crabbymare (3 December 2012)

Even if I had a ploddy cob (no disrespect here to ploddy cob owners) I would be absolutely fuming if I had paid a yard owner to keep my horse exercised while I was away and someone else had been riding it so I would be cutting heads off if I had worked for years to get a horse to GP level and a 14 year old wa out on it  a strong talk to the yard owner and letting your views be known very clearly is a must so that it never happens again to you or anyone else


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## Nightmare before Christmas (3 December 2012)

Do you currently compete the horse GP level? Also how often do you ride and compete it? It sounds like you have your horse worked by the yard owner reg when you cant make it even though you arnt on working livery? Sorry if I am wrong


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## Frumpoon (3 December 2012)

I'd be utterly livid!!

Which yard is it btw...I think I have a feeling I know which one....


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## Goldenstar (3 December 2012)

badgermyers said:



			Do you currently compete the horse GP level? Also how often do you ride and compete it? It sounds like you have your horse worked by the yard owner reg when you cant make it even though you arnt on working livery? Sorry if I am wrong
		
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Not sure what's any of that's got to do with letting a 14yo novice rider out on the road with a GP horse without the owners permission.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (3 December 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Not sure what's any of that's got to do with letting a 14yo novice rider out on the road with a GP horse without the owners permission.
		
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Well if I had a livery that was on full livery rather than working and I was constantly having to work the horses for them for whatever reason I wouldnt be too happy. Not that I would put someone else on the horse myself but know plenty that would! Even more so if the owner was then off competing GP but always getting people to school it at home.

That was my train of thought anyway


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## paulineh (3 December 2012)

If the horse was mine and I had asked for certain work to be done I would expect it to be done by the YO and not a livery.

If th YO could not ride the horse ,in advance I would have arranged for the horse to either go on the walker more or turned out.

How much holiday does the horse get. Could it not have had a break while you were away.

You pay for things to be done properly by the right people. I would not be happy at all


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## fidleyspromise (3 December 2012)

crabbymare said:



			Even if I had a ploddy cob (no disrespect here to ploddy cob owners) I would be absolutely fuming if I had paid a yard owner to keep my horse exercised while I was away and someone else had been riding it so I would be cutting heads off if I had worked for years to get a horse to GP level and a 14 year old wa out on it  a strong talk to the yard owner and letting your views be known very clearly is a must so that it never happens again to you or anyone else 

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This.  I have a highland and only people of my choice ride her.
Woe betide anyone who rides her without my say so - regardless of the fact I'm a rubbish rider and anyone could do better!  If it had been an employee, I would put it down to a misunderstanding, but for another livery to be riding your horse (irrespective or age or experience) when you are paying for the Yard to exercise your horse is out of order.  

When you asked for your horse to be exercised, then YO must have known then that she had too many to ride herself and should have explained/asked permissions then, for someone else to exercise your horse OR, after your had the agreement, someone else came along and asked for their horse to be exercised, YO should have know she didn't have time and explain to them that she had X to exercise which was too many.

I wouldn't move yards as you are adamant you are happy there, but I would explain to YO - as has been said previously - why you are pee'd off.  The answers from this would depend on my next course of action.


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## Amymay (3 December 2012)

paulineh said:



			If the horse was mine and I had asked for certain work to be done I would expect it to be done by the YO and not a livery.

If th YO could not ride the horse ,in advance I would have arranged for the horse to either go on the walker more or turned out.

How much holiday does the horse get. Could it not have had a break while you were away.

You pay for things to be done properly by the right people. I would not be happy at all
		
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This.


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## Auslander (3 December 2012)

badgermyers said:



			Well if I had a livery that was on full livery rather than working and I was constantly having to work the horses for them for whatever reason I wouldnt be too happy. Not that I would put someone else on the horse myself but know plenty that would! Even more so if the owner was then off competing GP but always getting people to school it at home.

That was my train of thought anyway
		
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Full livery is everything - including exercise. Working livery is a riding school thing, where the horse is used for lessons in exchange for reduced livery charges. Anyway, if the YO has agreed to take payment for riding the horse, that indicates that she's happy to do so!

I know many riders who have their staff exercise their horses, and only get on to school and compete - I'm failing to see your point at all.


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## Gingerwitch (3 December 2012)

If your going to stay at the yard -which i couldn't why dont you arrange for the horse to go to your trainers next time you go off on your hols.

And i would not be letting the yo ride my horse ever again.... who knows whom she would allow on it next time - and to be honest - even if she said it was always her, the trust has gone for me.


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## el_Snowflakes (3 December 2012)

I would be off the yard that same day & wouldn't be paying the YO livery. Shocking.....


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## MrsMozart (3 December 2012)

I would be very, very angry.

The YO would know that I was very, very angry.

As would the other liveries.


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## Goldenstar (3 December 2012)

But badgermyers OP pays the yo to ride the horse when she does not she did not pay to have it hacked out by a 14yo.
I think if I remember correctly from the thread the YO rides the horse when OP canot and is paid for doing so its a buisness transaction which the YO could refuse if she wished .
OP completes her horse and works ( I think that's right) why should she not spend her money on getting her horse ridden by YO to suit her convenicence why should the YO mind that sounds like a great deal being paid to ride a GP horse.
But putting a child on such a horse to ride on the road something the YO won't do with the horse herself is a serious serious misjudgement by the YO.


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## Amymay (3 December 2012)

badgermyers said:



			Well if I had a livery that was on full livery rather than working and I was constantly having to work the horses for them for whatever reason I wouldnt be too happy.
		
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What on earth do you think full livery means?


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## Nightmare before Christmas (3 December 2012)

Auslander said:



			Full livery is everything - including exercise. Working livery is a riding school thing, where the horse is used for lessons in exchange for reduced livery charges. Anyway, if the YO has agreed to take payment for riding the horse, that indicates that she's happy to do so!

I know many riders who have their staff exercise their horses, and only get on to school and compete - I'm failing to see your point at all.
		
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Oh round here full is everything bar riding as ive always been on that and working is where the horse is worked too, either riding school or by yard owner/groom/whatever. 

Or at least it has been at every yard ive been on before I got my own place as Ive always been full livery but never has that included riding


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## Amymay (3 December 2012)

badgermyers said:



			Do you currently compete the horse GP level? Also how often do you ride and compete it? It sounds like you have your horse worked by the yard owner reg when you cant make it even though you arnt on working livery? Sorry if I am wrong
		
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And this is relevant to the situation because?????


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## planete (3 December 2012)

The yard owner has been irresponsible beyond belief in letting a 14 year old ride a 17h GP horse on the roads, she has been deceitful in not being upfront about the exercising arrangements for the horse, and she obviously thinks nothing of putting a valuable horse in her care at risk.  Would I be sitting down to have a  friendly chat with her? I would be writing her a letter detailing all these points and giving her notice.
Far better for the horse to move yards than to have his life and years of training jeopardised.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (3 December 2012)

amymay said:



			And this is relevant to the situation because?????
		
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Sorry I was kind of thinking and typing. I have experience of this type of situation in the past and people normally pass riding to someone else if they are fed up of doing it. I know they are being paid but theres being paid as a few one offs then theres 'I am not coming up again (been said many times before) can you ride him please and ill give you some cash'... 

The latter would annoy me


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## Goldenstar (3 December 2012)

Full livery usually round here means everything including exercise but it can mean all care and you pay a daily charge for work.
Working or schooling livery means the yard are training the horse and handle the work plan .
OP I think pays livery to cover all care and pays daily for the YOer to work the horse when she does not ride it, all very fair .


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## Amymay (3 December 2012)

badgermyers said:



			Sorry I was kind of thinking and typing. I have experience of this type of situation in the past and people normally pass riding to someone else if they are fed up of doing it. I know they are being paid but theres being paid as a few one offs then theres 'I am not coming up again (been said many times before) can you ride him please and ill give you some cash'... 

The latter would annoy me
		
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It has absolutely no relevance whether the OP has another person riding her horse or not.  

And if it would annoy you, then presumably it wouldn't be a service you would offer as a YO........


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## Auslander (3 December 2012)

badgermyers said:



			Oh round here full is everything bar riding as ive always been on that and working is where the horse is worked too, either riding school or by yard owner/groom/whatever. 

Or at least it has been at every yard ive been on before I got my own place as Ive always been full livery but never has that included riding 

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How bizarre, I'd call that part livery. Anyway - it's completely irrelevant to the discusssion. Would you be happy if your best horse was on livery which included exercise, and you found out that instead of being ridden by the person you had paid to ride it, it had been ridden by a kid who did not have your permission to ride, and was not capable of riding it at the appropriate level? I wouldn't.


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## Goldenstar (3 December 2012)

BM the owner was on holiday and during the holiday which can hardly be classed as not turning up this happened its difficult to find a defence for the YOer.


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## GlamourDol (3 December 2012)

I have to disagree with the poster who said it didnt matter whether he was a cob of a GP wb. To the owner it is still a breach of trust, to the horse it is totally different
These horses by their nature are sensitive animals, and something who is that specifically schooled could so easily be put back by someone who doesnt know what they are doing, even more so, if it is new at this level! 

Is this woman your trainer? 
Where abouts in the mids are you?


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## Kat (3 December 2012)

badgermyers said:



			Oh round here full is everything bar riding as ive always been on that and working is where the horse is worked too, either riding school or by yard owner/groom/whatever. 

Or at least it has been at every yard ive been on before I got my own place as Ive always been full livery but never has that included riding 

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It is not uncommon for everything bar riding to be called full livery - though that is incorrect really. That is what happens at our yard, what is really part livery is referred to as full because it is the most comprehensive package offered. When it includes riding I have heard it referred to as schooling livery or competition livery although technically they are again separate and distinct things. 

But I have never heard everything including riding called working livery - working livery normally means that the horse works for part of its keep, thus reducing the livery bill, either at a riding school, equestrian college, or to give lessons to working pupils or whatever.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (3 December 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			BM the owner was on holiday and during the holiday which can hardly be classed as not turning up this happened its difficult to find a defence for the YOer.
		
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Auslander said:



			How bizarre, I'd call that part livery. Anyway - it's completely irrelevant to the discusssion. Would you be happy if your best horse was on livery which included exercise, and you found out that instead of being ridden by the person you had paid to ride it, it had been ridden by a kid who did not have your permission to ride, and was not capable of riding it at the appropriate level? I wouldn't.
		
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No I wouldnt be happy I think thats fair enough I was just thinking of the bigger picture which I always do so sorry about that . 

Yes I know they were on holiday this time but I am sure I read that the YO also works the horse when she is unable to get to the yard which is all that triggered that thought pattern.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (3 December 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I can feel your blood pressure over the Internet LOL
		
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its an awful thing to happen to anyone, any horse,any situation, but clearly the YO doesnt appreciate its like letting a new driver loose in a finely tuned sports car-reciepe for disaster.

whilst i know any breed/type of horse can be sharp and sensitive, letting the new driver loose in a ford focus of the horse world, is less likely to end in injury, legal case etc.

YO=idiot for not thinking this through, and idiot for breaking your trust.


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## LJN (3 December 2012)

Skewbald1 said:



			I guess this is the downside of having a horse on full livery, you don't know the ins and outs like you do when you're on DIY
		
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I have my horse on full livery, and when the STAFF at the yard (staff, not other liveries) ride him for me I get an email detailing who rode him, for how long, what they worked on and how they thought he went. If I am away for more than a day or two then they also tell me the other things he has been up to, like if he went loopy when they turned him out or chewed someones pony tail off while they were putting his boots on. 

I would be spitting feathers if I were you OP. It costs a lot of money to have a horse in full livery, and you should be kept up to date with everything he does!


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## GlamourDol (3 December 2012)

badgermyers said:



			Well if I had a livery that was on full livery rather than working and I was constantly having to work the horses for them for whatever reason I wouldnt be too happy. Not that I would put someone else on the horse myself but know plenty that would! Even more so if the owner was then off competing GP but always getting people to school it at home.

That was my train of thought anyway
		
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You'l find that many trainers whatever discipline will work alot of their liveries. 
Either that or lessons will be included. 

If you offer competition livery then it is your job!


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## rhino (3 December 2012)

Auslander said:



			Full livery is everything - including exercise.
		
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amymay said:



			What on earth do you think full livery means?

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At all the yards I've been at, full livery = all care, schooling/exercise livery = all care plus exercise. Maybe a Scottish/regional thing though


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## Nightmare before Christmas (3 December 2012)

GlamourDol said:



			You'l find that many trainers whatever discipline will work alot of their liveries. 
Either that or lessons will be included. 

If you off competition livery then it is your job!
		
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Yes I know it is if agreed. I was on a comp yard for a few years and there were only a few liveries. One didnt last long as kept asking the YO to ex her horse, she payed him for his time but it wasnt part of her livery if you get me. She started doing it more and more to the point she was only competing the horse. YO gave her the boot. The holiday is fine, I get that, it was the bit about not being able to make it up sometimes. I agree the YO was wrong to let a novice on the yard but if its a busy yard and the horses isnt on full livery (including riding in that) and was just being given pocket money to school it I can see why it may of happened and Ive seen it any times in the past on various yards. In fact ive been the one chucked on many times at various yards/dealers!


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## applecart14 (3 December 2012)

Not being funny but your horse isn't going to change its way of going in less than a fortnights riding. Even if you had a complete numpty riding your horse you would still be able to get back on and ride him to the level you were at before.

My horse might not be the next Escapdo but he is a lovely tempered warmblood, well schooled and consistently placed in dressage at novice/elem and show jumping comps at 2ft 9/3'0.  He is very special to me and I love him to bits but I wouldn't care who rode him so long as I was there, I think it is really important and crucial to your riding that you ride as many different horses as you can, and I think its really sad that people are so precious that they won't share their horses with others.  I would love to ride other peoples, and they to ride mine.  I can understand your concern with being on holiday and him being ridden without your permission by just anyone, but it won't have done him any harm in the long run.  i watch people ride my horse for a few minutes then just leave them to get on with it.


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## crabbymare (3 December 2012)

GlamourDol said:



			I have to disagree with the poster who said it didnt matter whether he was a cob of a GP wb. To the owner it is still a breach of trust, to the horse it is totally different
These horses by their nature are sensitive animals, and something who is that specifically schooled could so easily be put back by someone who doesnt know what they are doing, even more so, if it is new at this level!
		
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I think it was me who said that  if so we do actually agree as I said that I would be fuming regardless but that for a GP horse I would be chopping heads off!  I'm well aware of the sensetivity of GP horses


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## Amymay (3 December 2012)

No problem other people riding my horses Applecart - with My Permission.

This horse was in the paid care, however, of the YO.  With no permission for anyone else to exercise the horse other than the YO who was being paid to do so.


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## Goldenstar (3 December 2012)

Thank god my horses are at home and ridden by me and my grooms and never have to endure having people chucked on them ugh I am quivering with distaste at the thought.


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## newera (3 December 2012)

Skewbald1 said:



			I've just come back from a lovely relaxed two week holiday, I've been having a very intense time at work and me and hubby wanted to escape for a bit of winter sun. I left my pride and joy, my 17hh Hanoverian grand prix dressage horse on full livery at my yard with the understanding that his normal routine would be kept to (it's taken years of very careful management to get him to where he is now). This consists of being ridden in the morning with either turnout or time on the horse walker, weather depending, in the afternoon.
I'll admit that I'm the type of owner to wrap my horse up in cotton wool and I make sure his every need is catered for but, to be honest, I'm generally pretty chilled out most of the time!!
Anyway I came home very late last night and went straight to bed. My boy is on full livery so he's been seen to today as well as I have had a lot to sort out, although I did drive up to the yard very quickly before making Sunday dinner to give him a love. I had a quick check on Facebook when I got home to find pictures of a girl on the yard riding him!!! A girl who, although I know on first name basis, don't actually speak to or associate with. I called the yard owner and she has totally flipped it on me, had a total paddy saying that I'm pretty much overreacting and that she can't ride all the horses she has on livery!! To top it off this girl who was pictured riding him has four of her own to ride anyway, and while she is by no means a bad rider, she is a very LW teenager. My boy is a typical sensitive warmblood (and has to be to compete at the level he is at) and if she had pressed the wrong buttons, I dread to think what might have happened.
The thing is, if someone had approached me when I was at the yard and asked if they could have a ride on Ernie I would probably have agreed to it! Obviously under my permission, but I feel a little betrayed that I was the last one to know? I wasn't even asked?
I adore the yard the rest of the time but this just isn't sitting right with me.
		
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I totally appreciate your feelings! I've got my best horse on full livery whilst I'm pregnant. One of the most important factors for me was who would be riding him, and there are 3 staff members that have my approval and permission to ride and lunge him, and I have expressly forbidden anyone else to ride before I have checked them out and approved them.  I made this crystal clear, and I wrote this down on my livery contract.  I'm not a high maintenance livery client by any means, but I hate misunderstandings.

Whilst I can understand you are livid, did you make it absolutely clear that under no circumstances was anyone else to exercise your horse, other than the person you gave permission to?  If this was the case, then I would be so livid I'd move my horse immediately due to breach of contract.  I dont know if your yard is full or has a waiting list, etc  but even the yard I am at, which is a very popular one near London with fabulous facilities, Full and Competition livery clients ARE NOT easy to come by, so I would guess your YO would not want you to leave, as she would be silly to upset a full livery client like this surely?

-----------------------


PS slightly off subject from what the OP is asking, but some people on here seem to be unclear on what full livery means. So for them....

FULL LIVERY is where the daily needs of the horse are completely taken care of, including ridden exercise, usually around 4 days a week. All feed and bedding included.

PART LIVERY is where the daily needs of the horse are completely taken care of, but the horse is not lunged or ridden. All feed and bedding included.

COMPETITION LIVERY is where the needs of the horse are completely taken care of, including ridden exercise, maintaining a level of fitness suitable for the type of competition to be done. All feed and bedding included. The horse is plaited and presented to a high standard when the owner is competing, and many yards will also compete the horse on the owners behalf for expenses (usually for training purposes). 

WORKING LIVERY is where the horse is stabled at a Riding School or Equestrian College, and the horse is used for lessons, for an agreed number of hours per week. All feed and bedding included. The needs of the horse are completely taken care of, and often shoeing and clipping is provided at no extra charge to the owner.

DIY is when you rent a stable and the use of a shared field. The owner needs to purchase all feed/bedding, etc, and arrange & attend all appointments for vets and farrier, etc, and look after the horses needs 100% themselves.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (3 December 2012)

Must add to previous post (on phone) that I am not a novice rider but have been asked to ride other peoples horses while they ride another or do jobs and I dont know the horse or who it belongs to. No idea if they knew id even ridden it. I left my horse for YO to exercise in the past when I went away, came back and found out others had been ridding it. Didnt say anything as I expected it from past experience and the two who had ridden her came a cropper and didnt fancy it again. I have my own yard now so its not so bad.


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## rhino (3 December 2012)

newera said:



			PS slightly off subject from what the OP is asking, but some people on here seem to be unclear on what full livery means. So for them....
		
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As far as I'm aware there is no legally binding definition of different types of livery. Full livery means different things to different people, and seems to differ across the country. There is obviously no 'correct' answer which is why it is imperative that everyone knows how each livery package works _at their yard_... For some yards Full will include things like wormers, dentists, and for others it won't. Your definition may be the BHS one but it's rather patronising to suggest that it's the ONLY one IMO.


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## annunziata (3 December 2012)

I would be furious to say the least.


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## Auslander (3 December 2012)

applecart14 said:



			Not being funny but your horse isn't going to change its way of going in less than a fortnights riding. Even if you had a complete numpty riding your horse you would still be able to get back on and ride him to the level you were at before.

My horse might not be the next Escapdo but he is a lovely tempered warmblood, well schooled and consistently placed in dressage at novice/elem and show jumping comps at 2ft 9/3'0.  He is very special to me and I love him to bits but I wouldn't care who rode him so long as I was there, I think it is really important and crucial to your riding that you ride as many different horses as you can, and I think its really sad that people are so precious that they won't share their horses with others.  I would love to ride other peoples, and they to ride mine.  I can understand your concern with being on holiday and him being ridden without your permission by just anyone, but it won't have done him any harm in the long run.  i watch people ride my horse for a few minutes then just leave them to get on with it.
		
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With all due respect, a Grand Prix dressage horse is a completley different kettle of fish to a well schooled horse at a lower level. Whilst it's true that no long term damage is likely to have happened, it's all a matter of tuning. If the horse, who is competing, and therefore will be maintained exactly as the rider wants it, is ridden by a less able person, who will not have the knowledge of how the horse should feel/how the rider wants it to feel - it will knock the tuning out, and require a few steps back to get the horse back on track again. If the horse has a competition programme set, then this setback could well affect its next outing. Not ideal at all for a horse at this level.

When I was riding horses working at the higher levels, I could tell who had ridden them the day before - it's that easy to affect a horses way of going. OP has sad that the yard owner is a "beautiful, sympathetic rider" who is presumably able to ride the horse as the owner needs him ridden, without upsetting the fine tuning. I would be very unwilling to ride a competing GP horse, for fear of doing something that set back his training a few days.


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## nikkimariet (3 December 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Thank god my horses are at home and ridden by me and my grooms and never have to endure having people chucked on them ugh I am quivering with distaste at the thought.
		
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And me 

And I can make sure they are rugged/fed/handled how I want too.

I cringe at the day I have to move Fig onto a livery yard and deal with complete doorknobs on a regular basis.


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## measles (3 December 2012)

rhino said:



			At all the yards I've been at, full livery = all care, schooling/exercise livery = all care plus exercise. Maybe a Scottish/regional thing though 

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I think it might be a regional thing as in these parts that is how livery packages are described.


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## Goldenstar (3 December 2012)

applecart14 said:



			Not being funny but your horse isn't going to change its way of going in less than a fortnights riding. Even if you had a complete numpty riding your horse you would still be able to get back on and ride him to the level you were at before.

My horse might not be the next Escapdo but he is a lovely tempered warmblood, well schooled and consistently placed in dressage at novice/elem and show jumping comps at 2ft 9/3'0.  He is very special to me and I love him to bits but I wouldn't care who rode him so long as I was there, I think it is really important and crucial to your riding that you ride as many different horses as you can, and I think its really sad that people are so precious that they won't share their horses with others.  I would love to ride other peoples, and they to ride mine.  I can understand your concern with being on holiday and him being ridden without your permission by just anyone, but it won't have done him any harm in the long run.  i watch people ride my horse for a few minutes then just leave them to get on with it.
		
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A fortnights bad riding could ruin a GP horse and at the very least interrupt the work plan in the short to medium term.
Fortunately this horse sounds like a forgiving sort of chap .
But the potential was injury to the fourteen yo and the horse on the road together chills me to the bone which is why I asked Op at the beginning of the thread has something happened while she was away to cause the YO to act in such a crazy way.


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## showjumpingfilly (3 December 2012)

So Op is on a yard witha mixture of types/disciplines - Op pays for full livery but sometimes requires exercise - whether or not this was originially the case, YO was asked to exercise horse whilst OP was away. YO then let young teenager hack said horse. This was done without OPs knowledge and consent. 

There is NO WAY i would be happy with this. If I paid someone to ride my horse and they then passed it onto someone else - irregardless of their capabilities (horse or rider) I'd be fuming. Whether there was no harm done or not. It's a betrayal of trust and I'm afraid I'd be out of there - I couldn't rest knowing it might be secretly happening on more than one occasion. 

It's beside the point whether horse is currently competing GP or not and how often OP rides their own horse - YO still was asked to do a service, was paid for it - yet gave the job to someone else and didn't ask/tell the OP.

And AppleCart - if someone asked and I gave permission I may not have a problem with someone else having a sit on my horse. But frankly I don't see why i should share my horses with anyone just because it's good for everyones riding?! I may be 'precious' about my horses but I don't think it's 'sad' that I fork out an awful lot of money and work hard for it so that other people can ride my horses. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but that's my opinion.


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## crabbymare (3 December 2012)

applecart14 said:



			Not being funny but your horse isn't going to change its way of going in less than a fortnights riding. Even if you had a complete numpty riding your horse you would still be able to get back on and ride him to the level you were at before.

My horse might not be the next Escapdo but he is a lovely tempered warmblood, well schooled and consistently placed in dressage at novice/elem and show jumping comps at 2ft 9/3'0.  He is very special to me and I love him to bits but I wouldn't care who rode him so long as I was there, I think it is really important and crucial to your riding that you ride as many different horses as you can, and I think its really sad that people are so precious that they won't share their horses with others.  I would love to ride other peoples, and they to ride mine.  I can understand your concern with being on holiday and him being ridden without your permission by just anyone, but it won't have done him any harm in the long run.  i watch people ride my horse for a few minutes then just leave them to get on with it.
		
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I have to disagree with this as pretty much any horse that like yours is schooled correctly is capable of doing elem but to get a horse tp GP takes a lot more work and the horse can very easily be spoilt for example by a rider sitting wrongly. the op did say that she/he has no problem with other people who want to see what a GP horse feels like riding BUT when she/he is there and if you are away on holiday and paying a YO to ride the horse then its the YO who should ride it


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## showjumpingfilly (3 December 2012)

newera said:



			-----------------------


PS slightly off subject from what the OP is asking, but some people on here seem to be unclear on what full livery means. So for them....

FULL LIVERY is where the daily needs of the horse are completely taken care of, including ridden exercise, usually around 4 days a week. All feed and bedding included.

PART LIVERY is where the daily needs of the horse are completely taken care of, but the horse is not lunged or ridden. All feed and bedding included.

COMPETITION LIVERY is where the needs of the horse are completely taken care of, including ridden exercise, maintaining a level of fitness suitable for the type of competition to be done. All feed and bedding included. The horse is plaited and presented to a high standard when the owner is competing, and many yards will also compete the horse on the owners behalf for expenses (usually for training purposes). 

WORKING LIVERY is where the horse is stabled at a Riding School or Equestrian College, and the horse is used for lessons, for an agreed number of hours per week. All feed and bedding included. The needs of the horse are completely taken care of, and often shoeing and clipping is provided at no extra charge to the owner.

DIY is when you rent a stable and the use of a shared field. The owner needs to purchase all feed/bedding, etc, and arrange & attend all appointments for vets and farrier, etc, and look after the horses needs 100% themselves.
		
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I'm not sure they're unclear I think it's just some people call things different.

I know of a couple of yards round here where Part is like assisted to mon - fri mucking out but not weekends or mornings but not evenings. And other yards where full livery is everything bar riding, riding included is called Exercise Livery.


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## Skewbald1 (3 December 2012)

Wow, have only just logged back on and seen about 5 new pages of replies. I'm going up to the yard shortly so will see what the yard owner has to say for herself. The pictures are still on Facebook, and the yard owner has texted me this morning, asking if I am going up to the yard today, which is unusual for her as if I normally need him riding I ring her and tell her, she never generally texts me first!!
With regards to whether I had clearly stated as to who I had paid to ride my boy, while there was no contract, there was an agreement that it was to be her that rode him. 
I voiced my concerns last night further, and yard owner continued to be defensive! After I said that not only had the girl got permission to ride Ernie, she could have pressed the wrong button and anything could have happened, yard owner replied with "I would never put anyone on my yard in danger, she was fine hacking him".
The whole situation has left me quite taken aback if I'm honest. I'm just preparing myself to face the music, yard owner has a very good way of making it feel as if I am in the wrong, when I know I'm definitely not!


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## newera (3 December 2012)

rhino said:



			As far as I'm aware there is no legally binding definition of different types of livery. Full livery means different things to different people, and seems to differ across the country. There is obviously no 'correct' answer which is why it is imperative that everyone knows how each livery package works _at their yard_... For some yards Full will include things like wormers, dentists, and for others it won't. Your definition may be the BHS one but it's rather patronising to suggest that it's the ONLY one IMO.
		
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Maybe the descriptions do vary regionally, but I know a lot of yards within the thames valley, south east area and this is basically how we describe it here, and of course, there will always be variations in the detail


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## Leg_end (3 December 2012)

Skewbald1 said:



			With regards to whether I had clearly stated as to who I had paid to ride my boy, while there was no contract, there was an agreement that it was to be her that rode him. 
I voiced my concerns last night further, and yard owner continued to be defensive! After I said that not only had the girl got permission to ride Ernie, she could have pressed the wrong button and anything could have happened, yard owner replied with "I would never put anyone on my yard in danger, she was fine hacking him".
The whole situation has left me quite taken aback if I'm honest. I'm just preparing myself to face the music, yard owner has a very good way of making it feel as if I am in the wrong, when I know I'm definitely not!
		
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If she's still defensive when you go up there then I wouldn't even bother arguing with her but would find somewhere else ASAP.


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## Amymay (3 December 2012)

Leg_end said:



			If she's still defensive when you go up there then I wouldn't even bother arguing with her but would find somewhere else ASAP.
		
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Agree 100%


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## Goldenstar (3 December 2012)

Skewbald1 icily professional is the way forward IMO , 
                 This is not a friend that has broken your trust this a professional that has broken the rules , the code of ethics if you like that govern the contract between you and her she is defensive because she is in the wrong, you come across as a nice normally cheery type of person trust me every inch of ice will work better than emotion now .
She has done this not you let her know this in the coldest most unemotional way you can she must rebuilt the trust she must prove herself from zero point again of being worthy of caring for this precious horse .
Good luck , straight back and go girl .


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## rhino (3 December 2012)

At the end of the day it's _your_ horse and _you_ are the one who makes the decisions. If your YO can't or won't respect that then I'd probably be looking to move too. Sounds like you're pretty easy going about letting people have a go, but IME people can take advantage of that 

Hope you get it sorted and YO understands why you are (quite rightly) not happy!


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## PandorasJar (3 December 2012)

I would look elsewhere and get him moved. Get the photos saved Off facebook.
I'd then request their insurance details. Riders insurance (for working not pleasure) and if they can't produce that, public liability. And notify that you will not be paying for the service. Id push that a vetting will be required at their cost if they push payi g for the schooling.

I'd be fuming about any horse being ridden without permission.


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## onlytheponely (3 December 2012)

OP, I too would be very upset to find this on my return. 

I can't help but wonder if the YO is being so laid back because this might not be a one-off? I would be asking her to clarify how many times this girl has really ridden your horse. I would also ask her exactly who would have been taking responsibility/insurance liability had the girl come off and injured herself. I am assuming that your horse is covered regardless of who is on his back, not that this makes it OK by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe she needs to be made to think about the implications a little more seriously.
There are so many things that could have gone wrong that it almost doesn't bear dwelling on.


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## mjcssjw2 (3 December 2012)

I have a horse working at mediumish, so no great shakes, let a youngish girl ride him (18) she has been riding and competing all her life. she rushed him round in medium trot and nagged and nagged him, asked for canter and he nearly launched her into the middle of next week, worse that that the horse had pulled a check ligament when she got off!
result 5 months later horse still on rest.
So its not selfish not to let others ride your horse, depends how much you value your horse and your work!


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## Amymay (3 December 2012)

PandorasJar said:



			I would look elsewhere and get him moved. Get the photos saved Off facebook.
I'd then request their insurance details. Riders insurance (for working not pleasure) and if they can't produce that, public liability. And notify that you will not be paying for the service. Id push that a vetting will be required at their cost if they push payi g for the schooling.

I'd be fuming about any horse being ridden without permission.
		
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Go, Pan, go.....!!!!


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## JingleTingle (3 December 2012)

I am amazed that your YO continues to play the 'what's your problem' card with you? How rude and utterly unprofessional. 

I would be questioning if this yard and the YO are really capable of being entrusted with the care of what must be, due to the level you are competing at, a horse of considerable value.

I cannot understand, if she has genuine knowledge of the training and care required for a GP horse to thrive, that this would ever have happened.

It is like handing a Formula 1 racing car over to Joe Bloggs car mechanic from down the road and letting him have a quick tinker with the engine! I can't imagine the fine tuning would help the racing car engine any more than allowing this child to exercise your GP boy would help him either.


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## zaminda (3 December 2012)

I would be making it quite clear that I would not be paying her for riding services, as she hasn't provided them, and also consider charging the girl for the experience, after all riding good horses at a centre would cost her a considerable amount of money.
Then I would look to move. I never let anyone else ride my horses, as I don't want them damaged, or to be liable for someone injuring them. My pony is different, he is easy, but your horse coulddo someone serious damage, which your YO should be aware of.  How irresponsible.


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## wench (3 December 2012)

My point still stands at what exactly did you tell/ask YO for? If you cannot remember or said something like, "Can you make sure Dobbin is exercised whilst I am on holiday"... it could potentially lead to a misunderstanding.

The only thing you can really do is speak to YO face to face and resolve situation. Getting all angry, shouty and stomping off saying I'm leaving yard wont get you anywhere. But I would insist on a refund for the payment of exercise costs.

Also edited to add... I wouldn't be going around to talk to her parents, nor would I be approaching this girl directly myself to say "why have you been riding my horse, you don't have permission, your a c**p rider." Also, you can ask for the photos to be taken down from Facebook, but I wouldnt expect them to be, as after all, the copywrite of photos is with whoever took them!


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## noodle_ (3 December 2012)

agree with the others - way out of order!!!

FWIW - FULL LIVERY to me has been full care EXCEPT riding.....


schooling/competition livery is full livery + riding......


part livery is 5x days a week OR full care in a morning....


i wouldnt expect anyone to ride my horse on full livery........ but everyone calls it diff things i guess.......


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## Spotsrock (3 December 2012)

My horses aren't grand prix anything but can be a touch quirky though both could handle a novice with supervision on the right day, but I love them the world and would be so angry and upset.


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## Hippona (3 December 2012)

I doesnt matter if the horse is a 3-legged knacker bag.....if someone else rides it without your express permission/request.... its out of order


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## Tinsel Town (3 December 2012)

wench said:



*My point still stands at what exactly did you tell/ask YO for? If you cannot remember or said something like, "Can you make sure Dobbin is exercised whilst I am on holiday"... it could potentially lead to a misunderstanding.*

The only thing you can really do is speak to YO face to face and resolve situation. Getting all angry, shouty and stomping off saying I'm leaving yard wont get you anywhere. But I would insist on a refund for the payment of exercise costs.

Also edited to add... I wouldn't be going around to talk to her parents, nor would I be approaching this girl directly myself to say "why have you been riding my horse, you don't have permission, your a c**p rider." Also, you can ask for the photos to be taken down from Facebook, but I wouldnt expect them to be, as after all, the copywrite of photos is with whoever took them!
		
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it doesnt really matter how she put it, why on earth would a YO think it would be ok to let another livery ride OP's horse when she is getting paid to do it?!? Its not like the girl worked for the YO. 

OP i'm still fuming for you!!! I cant believe your YO is being so casual about it all!!


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## PandorasJar (3 December 2012)

^ can't quote but I wouldn't have thought general rider insurance would cover someone riding horse if it is a paid service? May be wrong though.

AM.... I now feel like I need some pom poms.... :/ !


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## TarrSteps (3 December 2012)

You might also point out it voids your insurance if someone rides the horse without your express permission.  It's also at least debatable how responsible your YO would be if something happened - I have no doubt your/the rider's carrier would be hot on the YO's case if a claim had to be filed.

I know people should behave for the right reasons but sometimes calmly and sensibly reminding them of the risks has a remarkably useful effect.


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## Littlelegs (3 December 2012)

Regardless of who the ym let ride it, or what type of horse it is, the fact is it was the ym who was paid to ride them. The fact its a gp horse & a novice just makes it even worse. Whilst a gp horse won't suddenly lose its training from being badly ridden, certainly short term it will be set back. I think as well as ym, I'd speak to the girls parents. Not in an accusatory way, its not the girls fault at all. But from a safety point of view, if ym found what happened with ops horse acceptable, you'd have to wonder what other stupid situations she'd risk the kids safety in.


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## fizzer (3 December 2012)

It is immaterial that the horse is a GP horse, I would be fuming if it was my kids 13.2hh pony.  You pay for the YO to ride and school and not a livery who puts pics on facebook.

I would be sitting down and having a stern conversation with YO.


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## TarrSteps (3 December 2012)

I also agree with Goldenstar, this is just business. You agreed on a service, she did not provide that service as agreed and did not make other arrangements with you. I know there is a huge emotional component with horses but that is the gist of it. 

I don't know if you do usually let other people at the yard ride your horse, but if you do you should clarify those parameters with the YO and with the individuals in question.

If you are otherwise happy at the yard and the situation has worked, I'd give the YO a chance to salvage it. Reiterate your expectations and clarify what is on offer. I might also suggest looking quietly at your options, should this turn out to be part of a pattern, but moving is hard on horses and good situations can be tough to find. I am not advocating letting the YO off, just, again a business-like approach. Let them make it up to you. If they don't, that tells you a lot.

Leave the kid out of it. I'm sure she was flattered to be asked and it's not for her to go against a trusted adult's instructions. Your beef is with the person you have contacted to look after your horse.


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## Gingerwitch (3 December 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Skewbald1 icily professional is the way forward IMO , 
                 This is not a friend that has broken your trust this a professional that has broken the rules , the code of ethics if you like that govern the contract between you and her she is defensive because she is in the wrong, you come across as a nice normally cheery type of person trust me every inch of ice will work better than emotion now .
She has done this not you let her know this in the coldest most unemotional way you can she must rebuilt the trust she must prove herself from zero point again of being worthy of caring for this precious horse .
Good luck , straight back and go girl .
		
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your scary ! lol..... would not like to cross swords with you


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## GlamourDol (3 December 2012)

I think I would possibly also question whether the livery was riding on her own or if YO gave her a lesson?

If the latter, is your YO using this horse as her schoolmaster?


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## Gingerwitch (3 December 2012)

GlamourDol said:



			I think I would possibly also question whether the livery was riding on her own or if YO gave her a lesson?

If the latter, is your YO using this horse as her schoolmaster?
		
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I have wondered that.... but i still cannot get my head around the fact a yo whom wont hack out a gp horse has allowed a 14 year old pony club rider to hack the GP horse on the road !


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## wench (3 December 2012)

KateandSpotlight said:



			it doesnt really matter how she put it, why on earth would a YO think it would be ok to let another livery ride OP's horse when she is getting paid to do it?!? Its not like the girl worked for the YO. 

OP i'm still fuming for you!!! I cant believe your YO is being so casual about it all!!
		
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Tarrsteps answers are normally very correct, and is the jist of mine.

A service has been paid for, and not received to the satisfaction of the customer. As I stated before, if the service was not specifically stated that YO, and only YO should ride the horse, and the YO has knowingly broken this agreement, then it's really not on. If OP,
 just said my horse needs exercising whilst I'm away, it's a slightly different kettle of fish. We don't know if the girl is being paid to ride the horses, or if YO is just pocketing the cash (which would be very wrong).

I also agree with Tarrsteps about other posters needing to take the emotion out of it. At the end of the day it's a business transaction.


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## miss_c (3 December 2012)

applecart14 said:



			Not being funny but your horse isn't going to change its way of going in less than a fortnights riding. Even if you had a complete numpty riding your horse you would still be able to get back on and ride him to the level you were at before.

My horse might not be the next Escapdo but he is a lovely tempered warmblood, well schooled and consistently placed in dressage at novice/elem and show jumping comps at 2ft 9/3'0.  He is very special to me and I love him to bits but I wouldn't care who rode him so long as I was there, I think it is really important and crucial to your riding that you ride as many different horses as you can, and I think its really sad that people are so precious that they won't share their horses with others.  I would love to ride other peoples, and they to ride mine.  I can understand your concern with being on holiday and him being ridden without your permission by just anyone, but it won't have done him any harm in the long run.  i watch people ride my horse for a few minutes then just leave them to get on with it.
		
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Re the OP's horse - I second what other posters have said.  With a horse of that level and sensitivity it is not going to completely lose it's schooling, but the fine tuning that has to be so so so precise is going to be affected.

Re you thinking it 'sad' that people are precious and won't share their horses... Why?  My horse, my bills, mine to ride.  I would be LETHAL if I found somebody riding Genie or Titchy without my permission, and I am very particular about who I allow to have a sit.  I invest a lot of time, effort, money, and emotions into them, and will not potentially jeopodise that by having somebody else riding them.  There are only two people other than my trainer that I would 'leave to get on with it', both excellent riders who know how my horses are worked.  Anybody else would be watched 100% of the time, and if they did anything I didn't like they would be off the horse before they could blink.  Genie especially is not 'anybodys ride', and even at her level having somebody ride her in a way that doesn't suit can (and has) put her back months.

OP - I hope the YO bucks her ideas up, and that if needs be you are able to find a suitable yard to move to - easier said than done in the case of a GP horse - but best wishes from us!


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## Luci07 (3 December 2012)

We sometimes swap around certain horses. Less so with my youngster now as it sets him back considerably if someone other than myself or my YO rides him. As for the posters who think a GP horse would not be too upset... anyone see the programme where Carl Hester was teaching a celeb? Nicky something.. who WAS a reasonable rider. Nicky had a nasty fall by ....pressing the wrong buttons on a schoolmaster and horse went off. Now that was under the eye of an experienced trainer on a horse that was used to being ridden in lessons. 

Hope the update is positive. Good advice about taking out the emotions (as I would have been steaming) and hope it works out well when you have your conversation. Oh and someone else who would point out that a person forking out for full livery (and I do agree with the previous definitions) is not that easily found so are normally highly prized. There is a very very pretty little Spanish horse on our yard, new full livery. Smart as buttons and looks great fun to ride.. but would never dream of thinking I would allowed on board!


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## georgie256 (3 December 2012)

YO is clearly in the wrong. As stated before, it's business, you asked for your horse to be ridden by the YO, which didn't happen, which is not right. There isn't really any other opinion that can be justified.


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## Goldenstar (3 December 2012)

Crimbowitch said:



			your scary ! lol..... would not like to cross swords with you
		
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Me !! I am a softy honest.


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## OWLIE185 (3 December 2012)

I would suggest that your yard owned does not understand the implications of what she has done as otherwise she would not have done it.
She has risked the life of one of her young  liveries by asking them to hack out your powerful dressage horse which could have easily resulted in a serious accident involving both the horse and rider.
Did the yard owner ensure that the young rider was wearing correct protective wear? - I bet not.
Your yard owner may be an excellent rider but clearly needs to understand her responsibilities to those that employ her services.
She needs a reality check.


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## Elbie (3 December 2012)

Pretty much agree with everyone else here!

Although the YO states she wouldn't risk the young girls safety, you just can't be too careful. We live in a very litigious society and as the owner of the horse, you'd be pulled into any arguements if the girl fell off and got injured.

I would also assume that insurance would be a nightmare if anything had happened (to the girl or your horse)


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## annunziata (3 December 2012)

I hope that your YO has seen her error in her ways this is by no means your falt and please try not to let her think it is.  Good luck


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## amandaco2 (3 December 2012)

Id go mad too.
If the yo could ride your horse as agreed she shouldn't have said she would. And definitely not let another livery on him without express permission
That would go for any horse


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## amandaco2 (3 December 2012)

Sorry should read if yo couldn't ride the horse, she shouldn't have said she would.
No one else should be near the horse other than authorized staff.


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## RutlandH2O (3 December 2012)

I'd be spitting little green putty balls!! The ramifications of the whole situation are making my head explode. The fact that there are photos on FB adds another dimension to the situation: who was taking the pictures of the 14 year old on the GP horse? It sounds like there was a great deal of "fun" at the yard that day. And who knows if that were the only day? The FB photos are proof that the YO was not honourable, trustworthy or professional.


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## ClassicG&T (3 December 2012)

I would be spitting fire and steam coming out of my ears if someone else other than the person you're paying rode you're horse.


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## gingerthing (3 December 2012)

I would be fuming OP, I would Deduct the riding charges from the livery bill for the time you were away. You have requested a service and it had not been met. Is this place a 'proper' dressage yard out of interest? 

It's enough to make you paranoid about what they do with clients horses in general... Good luck with what ever you decide to do.


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## Spotsrock (3 December 2012)

Just a thought is child wearing same in all pics? If not it would suggest multiple occasions.


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## Hen (3 December 2012)

FestiveBoomBoom said:



			The Y/O is 100% in the wrong and I would be furious if I were you. I would also be taking my custom elsewhere.
		
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Totally agree ^^^^

This happened to me last year (and not just the once) and that's exactly what I did. Thank heavens. Horses and I now all much happier.


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## Hexx (3 December 2012)

This happened to me - the YO was lucky not to end up in A&E when I found out a 13 year old girl had been hacking my cob - who could be a right handful when he wanted to be.   She thought she'd got away with it until I turned up at the yard early and found the girl putting him away - I still think that the time I found out was not the only time it happened.  It still makes my blood boil to think of it - getting angry all over again now!!!

I was off the yard within a week!!!  

Once the trust has gone, there is no way to get it back.  Everytime you go on the yard you will be wondering who has ridden Ernie, who rode him last, what happened, what else has occured that they didn't tell you about.............. you see where I am going.

Looking forward to hearing how you got on with the YO.  Good luck.


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## ILikeThemHairy (3 December 2012)

I have a ploddy, scruffy welshie who would probably be improved by a 14 year old pony clubber riding him around yet STILL would be fuming if a) someone was riding my horse without my permission and b) this happened when I was PAYING someone else to do it. It is never okay, and to add insult to injury the pictures were all over facebook parading the horse around... I am eagerly awaiting the post letting us know what the YO has said.


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## mjcssjw2 (3 December 2012)

me too ilikethemhairy i would like to know what was said.


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## el_Snowflakes (3 December 2012)

I can't believe theres even a debate over the rights & wrongs of this.

If someone took your sports car for a drive around the block it would be theft as it was taken without permission. So why is it any different with a horse?

What would have happened if the horse/rider had been injured? 

I just blew my top at the yard for someone feeding my horse haylage over her stable door after I purposefully bought hay for her as she cannot tolerate haylage & had 3 half eaten nets in her stable. Wouldn't like to see what would happen if someone stole my horse for a ride.....


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## Amymay (3 December 2012)

Quite Elsazzo.

What was the outcome of your chat op?


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## mandwhy (3 December 2012)

I'm looking forward to what YO has to say for herself too!

I fear the more OP discusses it with the YO the more ignorant and infuriating the response will be!


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## brigitdouglas (3 December 2012)

I'm fussy about who rides my 14hh cob so i can hardly imagine how you must feel about someone riding your Grand Prix horse


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## Renvers (3 December 2012)

OP I think you are right to be angry and I would be more so with the YO's blase attitude once her unprofessional behaviour was discovered. I would be subtracting the money you paid for the exercising from your next bill, as i would feel that a service paid for hasn't been provided. Personally I would also be looking for a new yard, could you trust that she will now do all the exercising herself? 

I am Full Livery and only the staff will exercise our horses even though there are some good riders on our yard, and some are only exercised by certain of those staff.


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## hest (3 December 2012)

I'm sorry but I would go flooping ballistic!

The 14 year old girl comes up to you and says: 'Excuse me, I know you're potentially about to go abroad for a dressage competition, and I know I'm only a learner rider and all that, but can I take your unpredictable 17h GP dressage horse out for a hack down the road, whilst you're on holiday?'

What would your answer to the girl be? Errrrrrrm......... 'No'?

Your YO sounds a tad manipulative and more than a tad irresponsible. Even though it might mean a stop-gap yard, if it were me I would have my dream dressage horse outta there faster than you can say RTA.


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## morrismob (3 December 2012)

Wow ! After reading your post two things came to mind. 1. My god how dare they do this but then reading further on I am sorry but I am going to question a few things. You have a horse on full livery and only agreed to the one person riding him which didn't happen so you have ever right to be mad but reading further on you went up to give him a love then went home to cook dinner !

Second point for me is the fact that you have something coming up ' internationally' but still went away ? We would have stayed at home and assured the status quo was kept  and certainly if the horse in question was so sensitive. We too have such a sensitive horse but he isn't bound for such great heights but we would still have made sure he was ridden by our instructor if we had to go away with an important comp coming up full livery or not.

Yes the YO has a lot to answer for but perhaps so do you after all he is your GP horse and with such an important time for him and you he needed to come first. Now I am going to run for the hills but please I am looking at it all from all angles so just ask yourselves if you would have gone at such an important time.


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## Spring Feather (3 December 2012)

I've read every post and I see OP is online so I'd love to know how the meeting went today with the YO??

I'm nowhere near as volatile as some other posters on here.  I would be irritated if someone had just taken one of my top-end horses out without my permission.  Not that it would happen because I know all people who come onto my yard and they all know my horses and I have some that no-one in their right minds would even want to ride lol!  

I can understand the young girl being thrilled about getting the ride on the horse btw.  When I was a younger I was offered a ride on a well known riders PSG horse and it was one of the most exhilarating experiences of my life back then.  I did it with her permission though.  It's not the young girls fault for riding your horse.  The YO should have known who was and who wasn't allowed to ride.

In some respects I do agree with the poster above regarding your big break coming up internationally.  Maybe it would have been better for OP to either stay at home or to impress upon the YO that this is a very important time for the horse and kid gloves are necessary at this moment if the horse really is such a sponge for new riders techniques.


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## Skewbald1 (4 December 2012)

Hi all. I've been off and on reading the replies and found them all very constructive, so thank you. I went up to the yard to see my boy today and speak to the yard owner. Hubby dropped me off as I was a bit nervous!!
Was rather awkward on arrival and I didn't bring it up straight away. Rode Ernie and I can always tell when someone else has ridden him, as others have said about fine tuning, he is very finely tuned, and he was a bit more "work" today than usual. Whether that is because the girl has ridden him or not, or perhaps he's just had a bit of an off day. We finished on a good note though so no damage done. Popped him out into the paddock and went to find yard owner.
Yard owner pretty much repeated what she said before. She did tell me it only happened the once, after she'd had a long day of lessons and riding other horses (she has a few of her own). She assured me it won't happen again, but I'm no fool so will be keeping a closer eye on my boy. Have also asked another livery who I'm quite chummy with if he will keep an eye on Ernie, as he is up there more than me, to make sure there aren't anymore "slips". 
I still struggle to understand WHY it happened. Even if she had decided he needed hacking that day, I don't understand why they didn't just go around their land (they have a fair amount). Well, I did ask why they didn't, response was it was quicker to go on the road. Even then a day off would have been fine. I'm wondering whether it's because I am so easy going. I would actually say we are friends.. We are both in our late twenties and obviously have a lot in common with the horses so perhaps, despite being a paying customer, she doesn't particularly see me paying her to care for my horse as 'business' so to speak.
I didn't particularly get an apology although yard owner is definitely a stubborn character! Was more a begrudging 'it won't happen again'. Im not sure whether the girl who rode him knows that I know, and that I don't approve, as only saw her mother today but we don't really speak apart from the odd hello.
With regards to those saying him being hacked more than he is now, or given time off, I have to say his routine rather suits him. He has minimum 1 day hacking and 1 day just chilling (although if weather is terrible and he can't be turned out he will go on the walker). But being a dressage horse, yes, we do a fair amount of time in the school. He lives a rather pampered lifestyle and I'm sure he wouldn't complain!
With those saying I should move, totally agree where you are all coming from, and if the yard wasn't otherwise perfect aside from this anomaly, and there were more yards round to suit him, that would be the top of my agenda. I wish he could just live at home with me but unfortunately couldn't do without an arena and I'm not sure how well he'd cope roughing it.
For the poster asking what sort of yard it is, it is a professional yard but not exclusively dressage. There's quite a mixed bunch, showjumpers, eventers, a couple of dressage riders, then just normal everyday riders who do the local shows! 
for those asking about my going on holiday. It was a surprise from my hubby, a lovely one at that. Regarding our potential international debut.. Well it's fair to say I'm still dithering over it, nothing is set in stone and it wouldn't be immediate, although my trainer thinks its a brill idea!! So we will see what happens. I don't want to jinx it if I decide to just stick at where I am for the time being.
I will keep you all updated if anything is to change though. Hopefully this is the end of it but things will be taking a totally different route if it ever happens again!


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## TarrSteps (4 December 2012)

Well, it sounds like you at least aired the situation out.  I presume she is not billing you for that day, at least? 

Out of curiosity, your trainer is not the YO, correct?  Perhaps next time you go away you could ask your trainer to ride the horse at least part of the time?  Then there would be someone closer to hand with a very vested interest, making sure the horse stays on the rails.

It can be very hard to foster a good professional relationship in the horse world, especially when people are similar ages and might be friends under a different circumstance.  I have to say, I'm a bit looser about it now I'm older but then I suspect that's because the balance of power has changed a bit and I'm less shy about discussions of money etc.  When I was younger and had clients that were my age or much older I had to be much more consciously businesslike.  I also made mistakes, misread situations and learned the hard way a few times. . Being the client can be tough, too, but at the end of the day you ARE paying for a service and have a right to expect it.  That should not cause a problem.  You can be friendly without being friends!  You can even, if you are careful, do business with your friends but you have to be very clear on the rules.

One thing I have learned, it's often useful to clarify by text or email.  I am NOT a fan of avoiding important conversations face to face but it can be useful to have things in writing, both for the record and because it clarifies everyone's thoughts.  

As you say, it doesn't seem any real damage was done.  Hopefully you've scared them all enough to stay in line in the future.  But don't be afraid to set limits - it is your horse, after all! 

Keeping in mind this comes from someone on the other side of the equation.  Your YO also has the right to not accept your limits, but that's another story and must ALWAYS be fully discussed and eventually hashed out to mutual agreement.  I used to work for someone who wanted my boss and only my boss to school her horse.  He said, sorry, he employed good people for a reason.  Fair enough.  And a loooong way from putting a random kid on the horse.  (I did that, too!  I was once, when I was little more than a groom, told to ride a very serious horse and I questioned my boss about it but she insisted.  Of course, the owner turned up.  I have to say, I have always admired her for opening the arena door, asking why I was riding the horse, telling me to cool him out, closing the door quietly, and ripping a very deserved strip off my boss.  The owner explained to me after that she was not angry at me and did not feel I had done the horse harm, but rules were rules.  I always respected her for handling it that way.)


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## mandwhy (4 December 2012)

Ah well, an apology would have been better but the main thing is it won't happen again. I would still be annoyed every time I thought about it but I suppose since the yard is otherwise ideal then its best to move on!

Maybe you are right, sometimes if we are too easy going people do take advantage, most of the time not knowingly but they might think 'oh she won't mind she's so easy going' but at least they know what is what now! 

Totally agree TarrSteps that was very good of the owner in question to handle it like that, it makes me mad when people have a go at someone young or naive when it was someone who should have known better behind it! Whether you're a groom, a waitress or working at Tesco, I WISH people would all be so decent to employees  

Glad you have got someone keeping an eye out for you OP and for what its worth I think your routine sounds perfectly lovely for a dressage horse, and OF COURSE you are allowed a holiday!!


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## Luci07 (4 December 2012)

thing is, perhaps I am a nasty suspicious person but I just don't believe it has not happened before...

If you are going to stay there, I would also suggest you make it clear to all other liveries that no other person can ride your horse. Quote the insurance issue to avoid any complication. I would not avoid the young girl but would have a quiet word without ripping her to pieces (as others said, not her fault) but would be good to clear the air - preferably talk with her AND her mother. 

Mine feels different if anyone else rides him and I don't like it. The exception is the YO who is a considerably better rider than me and I learn just by watching her..


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## Goldenstar (4 December 2012)

Well Alls well that ends well ,
Perhaps it's just as well to know where you really stand , that the YOer is not quite what you thought and can't be trusted as you thought.
I would get your relationship onto a more professional footing you are the customner she is providing a service .
You may need to micro manage the horse a little more if they have done this I can bet they are cutting corners in other places too.
It's good you have a friend on the yard to watch what's going on , keep this going.
YO is clearly overworked, so perhaps I would be discussing with your trainer if they know a local rider who could assist you with the riding and you can dress it up as I can see you have so much to so in future we will be doing x with Ernie, that's just a thought to play with.
Like Tarrsteps I am personally aware that this sort of thing goes on ( or at least it was when I was a youngster the thing is they usually don't get caught ) I am therefore not sure if I would trust the only one other time.
I would therefore  be speaking to the mother of the teenager And therefore knowing all the other parents will know but thats not a difficult conversation they have done nothing wrong.
Finally well done for dealing with it without picking up your stuff and flouncing off ,your guard is now up you know now you must safeguard your precious horse very carefully and that's a good thing .
In a few weeks this will behind and the uncomfortable feeling you have now will 
fade.
Good luck have fun with him.


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## Maesfen (4 December 2012)

Some LW teenagers can ride far better than older people.  I imagine the YO knows her capabilities and wouldn't put her on something too much for her and TBH, just because horse is on full livery doesn't exclude someone other than YO riding it if YO deems them suitable - unless you had a clause to say only YO to ride of course but which would you prefer, a horse stuck in a box most of the day due to time restraints or one able to get his exercise properly with another decent rider under YO supervision?
I haven't read any replies at all just the opening post so could be completely wrong but it did come across as a bit of throwing your toys out of the pram that someone else could also ride your horse well.


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## Amymay (4 December 2012)

I think it was more to do with some random person riding the horse - rather than someone in the employ of the YO, Maesfen.


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## Goldenstar (4 December 2012)

Maesfen said:



			Some LW teenagers can ride far better than older people.  I imagine the YO knows her capabilities and wouldn't put her on something too much for her and TBH, just because horse is on full livery doesn't exclude someone other than YO riding it if YO deems them suitable - unless you had a clause to say only YO to ride of course but which would you prefer, a horse stuck in a box most of the day due to time restraints or one able to get his exercise properly with another decent rider under YO supervision?
I haven't read any replies at all just the opening post so could be completely wrong but it did come across as a bit of throwing your toys out of the pram that someone else could also ride your horse well.
		
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You don't put an 14 yo novice child onto a GP horse and send them to hack out , because it quicker when it's been arranged that you as YO are being specially paid to ride that horse.
The horse would have been uninsured in event of a third party claim and child would not have been covered in event of an accident not to mentain the potential damage to the horse had it gone wrong this could have bankrupted the YO .
GP horses been careful management OP needs to professional she trusts to ride 
this horse to do what she was contracted to do ,ride the horse not treat like a riding school horse that had missed its slot .


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## Maesfen (4 December 2012)

Lol, AM, I understood from the OP that rider was capable, YO (who until now OP respected) also thought so else wouldn't have put her up in the first place.  It all comes down to individual mentality I guess and I'm the odd one out here but many professional yards wouldn't survive if they didn't have extra riders to call upon if the need arises.


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## TarrSteps (4 December 2012)

And the fact the random person is a minor - 14 - and hacked the horse on a public road, when neither had been discussed with the owner. All kinds of irresponsible.


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## Goldenstar (4 December 2012)

Maesfen said:



			Lol, AM, I understood from the OP that rider was capable, YO (who until now OP respected) also thought so else wouldn't have put her up in the first place.  It all comes down to individual mentality I guess and I'm the odd one out here but many professional yards wouldn't survive if they didn't have extra riders to call upon if the need arises.
		
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If they put novice 14 yoon GP horses and spend them out on the road to save time they don't deserve to survive not mentain you don't take money from people to do something and then don't do it.


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## TarrSteps (4 December 2012)

I have been that person, both rider and boss, Yes, it does completely depend on the agreement. I'm EXTREMELY grateful for some of the horses i've ridden this way, with the owners' blessing.


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## Luci07 (4 December 2012)

Maesfen said:



			Lol, AM, I understood from the OP that rider was capable, YO (who until now OP respected) also thought so else wouldn't have put her up in the first place.  It all comes down to individual mentality I guess and I'm the odd one out here but many professional yards wouldn't survive if they didn't have extra riders to call upon if the need arises.
		
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No. It was the YO whom the OP felt was capable. Not the 14 year old. And no professional yard will default to asking another livery to ride a horse which was is supposed to be ridden by staff.  Why would she have paid for this service? if in fact, said horse was so easy that she could have asked another livery to ride? Our YO has a chart up with all the work plans for hers and full liveries and it is worked around various staff days off etc. Little more relaxed in the winter when not eventing and horses kept ticking over but still she has a plan around both hers and her staffs availability.


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## imr (4 December 2012)

Skewbald, thanks for letting us know. I am really glad no real harm and that you have solved the problem in as far as you can. 

And good luck for this international thingy !


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## harrietSJ (4 December 2012)

I think you have handled it in a very sensible mature manner (I would be ABSOLUTELY fuming) and even more sensible to keep an eye on the situation for the future. It does sound like YO knows YO was in the wrong so hopefully will never happen again. Next you are on hols I would specify in writing who should be riding him to therefore ensure that such situation does not happen again. 

I would say that the YO has had a VERY lucky escape - putting a child on your horse with no permission from yourself and not an employee of hers therefore with no insurance, allowing the horse & said rider onto the road in a situation she would not be prepared to put herself in as horse can be spooky (when there was another alternative - take around their land) but this was 'quicker' - so I think YO has had a very lucky escape to not be faced with the responsibility & subsequent compensation claims from a road accident involving: an injured uninsured minor rider, an injured valuable uninsured horse as there was no permission and an injured driver caused purely by YO's lack of duty of care in this instance. Very lucky indeed.


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## mandwhy (4 December 2012)

harrietSJ said:



			I think YO has had a very lucky escape to not be faced with the responsibility & subsequent compensation claims from a road accident involving: an injured uninsured minor rider, an injured valuable uninsured horse as there was no permission and an injured driver caused purely by YO's lack of duty of care in this instance. Very lucky indeed.
		
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Very true, although that is the worst case scenario imagine if it DID happen and came back to bite the YO, I don't know how much the horse is worth but I shudder to think of someone being liable for it because they made such a stupid mistake... very poor judgement.


Also, people saying they can understand the YO is busy and therefore needs help with the riding - yes that would be acceptable from other sensible adult employees, but have you READ the bit about her being a 14 yo livery? Are you insane?!


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