# Owner will not accept loan horse back



## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

Hi there, I am desperately seeking some advice. I have a horse on loan - the period of loan was loosely agreed on Facebook as 12 months we have no written contract as such. I have had the horse for 4 months and wish to return it - she has developed a condition called pastern vasculitis and I have paid £400 in vets bills over the last 2 weeks having this condition treated, I have informed the owner of the horse and explained that I will and have already paid for the treatment on this occasion but as this is a condition that may arise again and again I cannot continue to care for the horse, I simply do not have the money. I can not ride the horse whilst suffering with this condition and she can't go out in daylight hours as the condition is photo aggravated. The owner is saying we have a contract on our conversation on Facebook and she's not in a position to have her back - the fact is that I'm stuck with a horse I can no longer afford and the animal is hers!!! I need to know where I stand legally I'm guessing a solicitors letter is te best plan but I want to know where we stand legally in terms of handing the horse over to an equine welfare organisation as her welfare is my main concern and I worry if this condition worsens I simply will not be able to treat her. Please help!


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## terrierliz (20 October 2013)

Is the horse not insured? Horses have injuries illnesses which require treatment unfortunately it's not all about the good bits with them.
Hope you get it sorted


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## Polos Mum (20 October 2013)

I don't think a welfare organisation would accept her as she has an owner who should be taking responsibility for her.  Can you suggest to the owner that she is sold?  or PTS if she can't be sold because of the illness?  
A formal letter telling the owner you'll be returning the horse to her address on after say 30 days notice from date of letter - and then just take her back.


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

Polos Mum said:



			I don't think a welfare organisation would accept her as she has an owner who should be taking responsibility for her.  Can you suggest to the owner that she is sold?  or PTS if she can't be sold because of the illness?  
A formal letter telling the owner you'll be returning the horse to her address on after say 30 days notice from date of letter - and then just take her back.
		
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I attempted to insure her but her vaccinations were not up to date and this was a stipulation from the insurance company I asked the owner to send me the passport so this could be done but the message was ignored. I already have another horse of my own so am fully aware of the costs and feel I am being more than fair treating the horse already. I am sending a letter through a solicitor but simply do not have the money to pay for any further treatment and her welfare is my concern


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

Plus the only address I have is for a house not yard how can I leave her at a terraced cottage - I have been so frustrated I've considered it but what if the horse was to injure itself or a member of the public


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## vieshot (20 October 2013)

It's her horse. Tell her she is having it back. Tell her you will be dropping it off from wherever you picked it up from in x amount of days. A Facebook chat is not a contract. Daft moose.


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## justabob (20 October 2013)

Although I have sympathy for your predicament, these loans should never be "loosely" agreed on FB, or anywhere else without written agreements. The passport should always be with the horse. I feel you have entered into this arrangement very lightly and are now sadly left with the horse that you no longer want.


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## Polos Mum (20 October 2013)

~If she ignores the letter, you could tell her you are posting an abandonment notice (redwings have a really useful section on their web site for dealing with abandoned horses which includes a copy of the legal notice) once you've obtained legal ownership you can sell her and keep cash to cover your costs of selling. 
If that doesn't produce some sort of action from the owner - probably nothing will!!


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

The owner is a friend of a friend and I agree a contract should have been drawn up - I signed a two week trial 'contract' that she'd scribbled on the back of an envelope she said if I kept the horse on loan she would get a contract drawn up but tht never happened! I am more than happy to go to court if she thinks I am responsible for the horses livery which she seems to believe I am for the next 8 months and a judge can decide however I need her to take the horse back !!!


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

Re the abandonment notice I have seen this on redwings but wasn't sure if this was only for livery yard and land owners!?


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## Sugar_and_Spice (20 October 2013)

Just give the horses owner a months notice that you will be terminating the loan, by recorded delivery letter. Tell the yard owner the same. Ask for an address to return the horse to. If no address given and the horse is not collected after that date, the horses care and livery fees will become the responsibility of the owner. Let her take you to court if she disagrees. I really wouldn't worry about this situation, its her horse and she doesn't like the sound of vet bills and is trying it on. Let her PTS the horse if she doesn't want it/can't afford it.


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

So would it then be the yard owners job to go after her for the livery? If she doesn't collect the horse? And I presume he can serve her an abandonment notice?


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## canteron (20 October 2013)

My experience says avoid court at all costs - it will probably take more than 8 months to sort it out (court proceedings are never quick).  It would also be a very subjective assessment by the judge as clearly both your understandings of the 'contract' between you is very different and the chances are you will end up looking after the horse for over a year while it is sorted out and may well loose the case and have to pay her costs in the bargain.

So, you have made a mistake, you are now going to have to find a grown up solution and accept a lot of life isn't perfect.  You could leave the horse at her cottage, but thats fairly hard hearted.  Face up to it, she doesn't want the horse or any associated costs and is going to play ostrich (head in the sand type approach.   It sounds to me as if you need to talk to her and say that you will try and find a new (free?) home, but if not the horse will have to be PTS?  Go to her will a plan and talk.  People are rarely so callous when you talk face to face and you have to try. 

Horrible situation though.


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

She wants the horse she just has no job and can't afford it right now - I can't find another home as she's sick and a walking vets bill. I have tried to come to an agreement and asked what she feels a suitable amount of notice is and she's said tht I agreed to 12 months and that's that. The court thing would be to decide if I am liable for the cost of keeping the animal for terminating the contract early the solicitors letter is to inform her that from x date I will no longer be caring for the animal so she as the owner holds the duty of care. I guess I will just have to see how that goes and go from there


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## bonny (20 October 2013)

I can't but help that morally at least the horse is your responsibility and if she has no job what's the point of trying to force her to take the horse back or cover your costs ? I agree with the poster above, talk to her and try and come to an arrangement you are both happy with and if at the end of the day neither or you want the horse then rehome her to someone who does.


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## Angelbones (20 October 2013)

I'd tell her that if she thinks the agreement on fb constitutes a proper contract then she has to acknowledge that most loan contracts would, amongst other things, contain a 30 day notice period on both sides. Also that if she had drawn up the contract as she was meant to then that contract would had to have a 30 day notice period in it or you would not have signed it. The 30 days works both ways - to protect both sides - if the shoe had been on the other foot and she had wanted the horse back she sure as hell would have been saying 30 days to you right now!

Are you able to keep the horse where it is, on a cheaper livery option? One that she could afford? 

As normal on these types of thread, I think someone will say to contact the BHS legal line or similar for some advice.  I've just been through a similar situation myself although we did have a contract with a 30 notice period, but I still got stuck with ongoing insurance premiums and big vet bills. The horse did eventually go back, after I'd spent loads on it and despite it all being in the contract I still think I did more than I should have done but can't see how it could have been avoided really.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (20 October 2013)

tegwin12 said:



			So would it then be the yard owners job to go after her for the livery? If she doesn't collect the horse? And I presume he can serve her an abandonment notice?
		
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If you was the yard owner, who would you chase for unpaid livery - the person who told you a month ago that they'd no longer be loaning the horse from 'x' date or the horses owner? :wink3: It's the horses owner who has the asset, ie the horse, which could be sold to pay the livery bill. 

If the yard owner gives you notice to leave the yard by your end date, agree, then inform the horses owner that she needs to find somewhere else. If she chooses not to then that's her look out. I don't see that you can issue an abandonment notice because the horse hasn't been abandoned on your land. The land belongs to the yard owner.

ETA I have no patience with horse owners who won't accept responsibility for their horses. If she didn't want that responsibility she could have sold the horse upon finding she'd lost her job. I've known people phone a dealer and the horse is viewed and collected a few days later. Since you're giving her back a sound and currently healthy horse she still has this option.

Sorry you all type so fast lol. I just read the horse is sick, so tell her its hers as from tomorrow (to save yourself the vet bills for a horse that isn't yours and has a long term condition). As goodwill gesture I would offer to pay for PTS if she doesn't want horse back. you can't leave horse to suffer and livery/vet bills for another month would likely cost the same anyway.


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

As I have said above I have tried all that though she is not willing to discuss and come to any type of agreement, it is not down to me to rehome someone else's horse surely she would be to approve an be happy with the home. Her intentions are probably for me to foot the bill for everything nurse the animal back to health and then she can sell the horse when she is in a fit state, this is hard for me I have bonded with the horse and I love her but I simply do not have the pounds in the bank to keep paying for these vet bills had I known the horse had this problem with her immune system I would never have agreed to take her on.......


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## Amymay (20 October 2013)

You can afford to go to court but not care for the horse??

Where did you collect the horse from?


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## bonny (20 October 2013)

Does the horse have any value ? Would anyone else want her ?


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## cptrayes (20 October 2013)

I suggest that you send her a recorded delivery letter saying that unless she tells you where to deliver the horse in30 days, that you will take her to auction, sell her, recoup the cost of livery over 30 days plus selling costs including transport and forward the balance, if any, to her.

I don't understand at all why anyone expects you to pay out huge vets fees on someone else's horse.


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

The horse is costing £250 livery a month and this month alone £400 in vets bills - there is nothing saying this condition will ever go away - worst case scenario I have 8 months livery to pay and then hundreds and hundreds of pounds of vets bills then at the end of the 12 month period I fear I may still find myself in this predicament so I'd rather get this sorted now if I have to incur legal costs there's not a lot I can do - I own my own horse and should I have put him out on loan I would never treat anyone like this - if somebody told me they didn't want him or couldn't look after him anymore I'd make sure he was back with me immediately no questions asked


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## its_noodles (20 October 2013)

all hindsight but should have got the insurance from the start...


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

She's a lovely horse just this condition would be a risk for anyone and is highly likely to reoccur


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

Yeah I tried but she wasn't vaccinated So they wouldn't cover her I asked the owner to send her passport but she ignored my message,


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## Sugar_and_Spice (20 October 2013)

OP just letting you know I edited my reply but you all type so fast you've probably missed it.


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

Yes I think a formal letter stating all the options is going to be the way forward I am going to speak to my solicitor tomorrow thanks xx


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## Sugar_and_Spice (20 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Neither do I. People who loan out horses are barmy IMO and just looking for what is effectively free full livery and vet care. Nice if you can get it, but don't complain if it all goes wrong!
		
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## Amymay (20 October 2013)

Where did you collect the horse from?


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## ihatework (20 October 2013)

It never ceases to amaze me how some people handles loans. Both loaners & owners. This is a living creature for christsakes - why on earth would you take on a horse if you couldn't afford vets bills or didn't insure it.


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## justabob (20 October 2013)

ihatework said:



			It never ceases to amaze me how some people handles loans. Both loaners & owners. This is a living creature for christsakes - why on earth would you take on a horse if you couldn't afford vets bills or didn't insure it.
		
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This ^^^^ Poor horse, the OP has stated that she has not bonded with it...........


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

Like I've said previously the insurance was ready to go I'd called put the policy in place it's still sat on record with my other horses policy - I just had to get her vaccinated for the policy to become effective - hard to do when the owner refuses the send the passport - vets will not vaccinate without it - mine certainly won't.


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## TandD (20 October 2013)

Why will the illness be 'likely to reoccur'? Surely with the correct management the vets bills will reduce?


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## DragonSlayer (20 October 2013)

ihatework said:



			It never ceases to amaze me how some people handles loans. Both loaners & owners. This is a living creature for christsakes - why on earth would you take on a horse if you couldn't afford vets bills or didn't insure it.
		
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100% agree......


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## Sugar_and_Spice (20 October 2013)

ihatework said:



			It never ceases to amaze me how some people handles loans. Both loaners & owners. This is a living creature for christsakes - why on earth would you take on a horse if you couldn't afford vets bills or didn't insure it.
		
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I don't see it as can't afford vet bills but more as why should somebody pay huge vet bills for a horse they don't own, which has a long standing condition that was not declared to them at the time they took the horse on? It's taking the mickey to expect someone to foot the bill for that. 

Also, OP would have got insurance if horses owner had given over passport so that OP could pay for vaccinations. Though I doubt insurance would cover a pre existing condition anyway.

Yes its a living creature and it may have a nice personality, but its a sick animal that nobody wants. Owner may want the horse but can't afford vet bills or livery. If the owner was posting on here saying that, they'd have tons of people saying to PTS then.


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## justabob (20 October 2013)

The passport HAS to go with the horse, it is the law. Seems to be both parties have been very relaxed about the whole loaning business.


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## hnmisty (20 October 2013)

tegwin12 said:



			worst case scenario I have 8 months livery to pay and then hundreds and hundreds of pounds of vets bills then at the end of the 12 month period I fear I may still find myself in this predicament so I'd rather get this sorted now if I have to incur legal costs there's not a lot I can do - I own my own horse and should I have put him out on loan I would never treat anyone like this - if somebody told me they didn't want him or couldn't look after him anymore I'd make sure he was back with me immediately no questions asked
		
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Sadly I expect you'd still find yourself stuck with her in 8 months time "oh, could you just keep her for another month whilst I look for a job?" Time and time again.

To the people saying tegwin should happily fork out for all these vets bills...if this was your horse that was ill (something that isn't the loanee's fault) would you honestly expect them to pick up all the vets bills and keep a clean conscience? I certainly couldn't! It would be straight back with me, and if I couldn't afford it then it would be my responsibility to sort something out.

Vets bills for recoverable illnesses/lameness are one thing. Ongoing medical Care another. Say the horse does recover. Owner could say "thanks very much, I'm having her back and I'm going to sell her".  

I hope you sort something out


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## ihatework (20 October 2013)

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I would no way accept a horse on loan (or Loan one out) without the passport going with the horse and insurance in place  & contract signed.

And yes, I have loaned myself and also loaned out my own. And no, I have never had one go wrong.


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## Amymay (20 October 2013)

Still waiting to hear where the horse was collected from.


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## Meowy Catkin (20 October 2013)

TandD said:



			Why will the illness be 'likely to reoccur'? Surely with the correct management the vets bills will reduce?
		
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Is it leucocytoclastic pastern vasculitis or photosensitivity caused by eating something?

Either way sun cream applied to white markings when it's sunny is one of the basic ways to avoid it reoccurring. You can also get sun chaps, use tubigrip as leg covers or stable during the day and turn out at night. Also remove plants linked to photosensitivity from the diet (no alfalfa in feeds and spray for buttercups etc...).

There's a huge thread about leucocytoclastic pastern vasculitis on AL and the key seems to be using sun cream of at least factor 40.


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## Jaycee (20 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			Most people who have horses on loan are expected to cover vet fees.  Both horses I had on loan it stated in the contract that I was responsible for all their vet fees.  I paid just over £500 on investigation into KS on one of them, coudn't claim on insurance as she was a veteran.
		
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## cptrayes (20 October 2013)

Jaycee said:



			Most people who have horses on loan are expected to cover vet fees.  Both horses I had on loan it stated in the contract that I was responsible for all their vet fees.  I paid just over £500 on investigation into KS on one of them, coudn't claim on insurance as she was a veteran.
		
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But most people who have horses on loan have a 30day return clause and can avoid massive fees by using it. I meant when there was no agreement in place for cancellation of the contract.


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## Amymay (20 October 2013)

Really Jaycee? That's outrageous.


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## TandD (20 October 2013)

Faracat said:



			Is it leucocytoclastic pastern vasculitis or photosensitivity caused by eating something?

Either way sun cream applied to white markings when it's sunny is one of the basic ways to avoid it reoccurring. You can also get sun chaps, use tubigrip as leg covers or stable during the day and turn out at night. Also remove plants linked to photosensitivity from the diet (no alfalfa in feeds and spray for buttercups etc...).

There's a huge thread about leucocytoclastic pastern vasculitis on AL and the key seems to be using sun cream of at least factor 40.
		
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Exactly what I was thinking......


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## WelshD (20 October 2013)

At the end of the day the horse doesnt belong to you, I'm guessing if you wanted the full on responsibility you could have bought a second horse and I'm amazed that others expect you to foot the bill for something that you didnt cause which could be ongoing in a horse that you dont want to keep 

Thats the risk the loaner takes by retaining ownership and loaning out, if they dont have a job they need to arrange for the horse to be re-loaned straight away - not your problem at the end of the day

I would look after the horse to the best of your ability till the 30 days notice are up then return the horse


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## Meowy Catkin (20 October 2013)

WelshD said:



			I'm amazed that others expect you to foot the bill for something that you didnt cause which could be ongoing in a horse that you dont want to keep
		
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Did the problem occur after the OP loaned him/her, or did the horse have sore legs when he/she was delivered? 
As I said - it is preventable with correct care. 

I loaned a pony for 2 1/2 years and the owner didn't pay the vet's bills during that time. However the pony could have been returned to the owner after a short notice period. Plus the owner could take the pony back after giving me a short notice period.


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## Polos Mum (20 October 2013)

amymay said:



			Really Jaycee? That's outrageous.
		
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Why outrageous?  My big horse is on loan to me and after all the years of wonderful riding he's given me I'd write a cheque for £1000's if that's what he needed - no hesitation. He's also a vetran so no insurance


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

Thanks for all the advice/opinions I appreciate everyone's point of view and I am going to speak to a solicitor tomorrow and see where I stand legally.


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## Honey08 (20 October 2013)

Poor horse, seems like it is caught up in a battle between two people who don't care and who didn't have any sense when they set this loan up.  

I would send the owner a letter saying the horse will be returning to the place that it came from in 30 days time.  Then hope that the owner can find somewhere to keep it.


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## Eriskayowner (20 October 2013)

I have a Dartmoor pony on "loan" - I have had him for 2 years now, but it was supposed to be for 6 months trial. I have no paperwork and no contact number, apart from the yard he came from. 

So far, I've paid for a full set of tack (he only came with a headcollar), reflective sheet, sweet itch rug, turnout rug, vets visit when he got kicked/cut his leg which needed stitching, dentist to do his teeth (which were horrific), worming, shoes, trimming and feed etc. 

I've also just paid a vets call out for a microchip to be implanted and a passport application so he can be transported. 

Surely if you take on a loan horse you take the rough with the smooth? The owner is clearly not in a position to have your loan horse back so pay the bills and carry on with the loan?


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## lachlanandmarcus (20 October 2013)

Eriskayowner said:



			I have a Dartmoor pony on "loan" - I have had him for 2 years now, but it was supposed to be for 6 months trial. I have no paperwork and no contact number, apart from the yard he came from. 

So far, I've paid for a full set of tack (he only came with a headcollar), reflective sheet, sweet itch rug, turnout rug, vets visit when he got kicked/cut his leg which needed stitching, dentist to do his teeth (which were horrific), worming, shoes, trimming and feed etc. 

I've also just paid a vets call out for a microchip to be implanted and a passport application so he can be transported. 

Surely if you take on a loan horse you take the rough with the smooth? The owner is clearly not in a position to have your loan horse back so pay the bills and carry on with the loan?
		
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But no loaner would have signed a loan agreement without any notice clause. The owner who puts a horse on loan may HOPE they don't come back if that would cause them issues, ESP if horse is crook, but they have to work on the basis that might happen. 

OP I think it is reasonable for you to cover the lameness, colic etc type illnesses, but given the owner has effectively prevented you from insuring for more serious stuff by retaining the PP, I think they give up any moral rights to anything more, ESP as you have paid some bills already. 

I would give 30 days notice by recorded delivery, and if nothing is done by the expiry. I'm afraid I would be taking said horse and tying them to said fence of said house. 

If the owner wanted to be rid of responsibility as well as day to day costs of the horse, they should have sold it NOT loaned it. They should decide whether to PTS or make other arrangements eg grass livery for the horse to keep costs down.


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## Regandal (20 October 2013)

If you like the horse, why not offer to buy him?  This condition seems to be manageable, and the owner doesn't seem to be in a position to look after him.  If she's really strapped, she may accept a reduced price.


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

This is not an option for me im afraid the same way it is not an option for her but as she is the owner of the horse she needs to make alternative arrangements for her care and I have explained I am more than happy to do what I can to assist if she would just say that she would have her back in a couple of months - the fact is whether the horse is ill or not I should be able to return her I havnt signed anything saying otherwise ........


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (20 October 2013)

Having put my own horse on loan in the past AND having got a mare on loan at the mo: I'm seeing this both ways!

When you take a horse on loan you take it lock-stock-and-barrel basically and its up to the loaner to pay all the bills, vets and all, BUT in this instance the loaner has said she wants to discontinue the "loan". However there is no formal contract in place detailing the period of the loan.

Having had a situation where my horse was out on loan and the loaner wanted to cancel it after only five weeks, I am in some sympathy with the owner as she may well not be able to have the horse back at the moment, especially with winter coming on, HOWEVER, I don't really see why if loaner for her own good reasons (in this case, vet fees) for not continuing the loan and has told the owner so clearly, then the owner should/must take heed of that and if they can't have the horse back then arrange either another loan, OR if veterinary treatment/fees is likely to be an ongoing issue, arrange to have the horse PTS for humane reasons rather than sell the poor creature on and have it hauled around the markets until it ends up in a dog tin.

Sorry loaner, but before taking on any loan you SHOULD have made sure that you'd signed a proper loan agreement; plus the owner too should have ensured this happened. But alas no good shutting the stable door after horse has bolted.

Think it a good idea OP for you to talk to a solicitor. But ultimately the facts are (1) the horse isn't yours (so why should you have the expense of someone else's horse when you've already said you want to hand it back); and (2) having informed the owner that you wish to terminate the loan, they are continuing to ignore that and YOU are left with the bills.

Sounds like the owner is hoping you'll take the horse (plus bills) on permanently........... think that the passport issue to start with was a bit of a warning bell TBH.

You COULD be drastic and write a recorded delivery letter to the owner and say that as they're continuing to ignore your desire to hand the horse back - and YOU are having to pay out vets fees for it, that unless they get back to you with say 30 days that you will be arranging humane destruction of the animal and all vets fees to date will be accruable to them........

But anyway, see what your legal beagal says.


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

I don't want to buy another horse this was the reason for the loan in the first place - the condition is manageable but at a price - a price which financially I am not able to meet it's putting tremendous pressure on me financially and proving extremely stressful.


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## mirage (20 October 2013)

We had a pony on trial which turned out to be unsuitable and his owner wouldn't take him back.In the end I sent her a message saying that for very week he was with me outside of our agreed trial period,I would be charging £30 a week grass livery.He was back with her within days.


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## justabob (20 October 2013)

tegwin12 said:



			This is not an option for me im afraid the same way it is not an option for her but as she is the owner of the horse she needs to make alternative arrangements for her care and I have explained I am more than happy to do what I can to assist if she would just say that she would have her back in a couple of months - the fact is whether the horse is ill or not I should be able to return her I havnt signed anything saying otherwise ........
		
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Why did you enter into this agreement to loan the horse in the first place, a horse that you clearly knew not a lot about? Your cop out is that you have not signed anything, well neither has the loaner The victim is the poor horse.


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## saskiahorsey (20 October 2013)

hmm no sympathy from me im afraid...you were happy to take horse without including an insurance plan...you didn't discuss with owner what would happen so both parties are totally irresponsible imho... my horse in on loan to a wonderful couple whos first thoughts were insurance and contract as were mine... and thankfully they understand that even when he cant be ridden due to injury he is still their responsibility ( but as they love said horse) im sure that's not a problem they want whats best for him... haven't read replies as from ur statements mare seems to be in the way...next question.... if she doesn't go back it will be pts lol....!!!!!! irresponsible  !!


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## Amymay (20 October 2013)

Eriskayowner said:



			I have a Dartmoor pony on "loan" - I have had him for 2 years now, but it was supposed to be for 6 months trial. I have no paperwork and no contact number, apart from the yard he came from. 

So far, I've paid for a full set of tack (he only came with a headcollar), reflective sheet, sweet itch rug, turnout rug, vets visit when he got kicked/cut his leg which needed stitching, dentist to do his teeth (which were horrific), worming, shoes, trimming and feed etc. 

I've also just paid a vets call out for a microchip to be implanted and a passport application so he can be transported. 

Surely if you take on a loan horse you take the rough with the smooth? The owner is clearly not in a position to have your loan horse back so pay the bills and carry on with the loan?
		
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All pretty standard costs that any loaner would be expecting to pay for (apart obviously from the micro chip and passport).


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## Meowy Catkin (20 October 2013)

It's not a condition where PTS should be in the equation at all. 

I do agree that anyone involved in a loan - owner or loaner - should make sure that a proper loan agreement is in place.


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## Amymay (20 October 2013)

Im guessing that as the op won't say where they collected the horse from it was either delivered unseen or collected from a car park somewhere - which makes the situation even more unpalatable. 

I really don't know what the answer is to be honest.  But poor,  poor horse. It's a rather heartbreaking situation.


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## Moomin1 (20 October 2013)

amymay said:



			All pretty standard costs that any loaner would be expecting to pay for (apart obviously from the micro chip and passport).
		
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In my view if you take a horse on full loan, you pay for it's every need, unless of course there's a written contract stating otherwise


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

I have never made any mention of putting the horse down and this is not something I've considered! Lol!!!!!!! Maybe you should read the entire thread and you will see that the contract was supposed to be drawn up by the owner after the trial - this never happened! You will see that from my previous comments I have chased and chased and chased the owner for the passport to enable me to a) insure the horse and b) legally travel the horse to competitions which was the whole purpose of the loan!!!


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## Eriskayowner (20 October 2013)

amymay said:



			All pretty standard costs that any loaner would be expecting to pay for (apart obviously from the micro chip and passport).
		
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At no point did I say they weren't, although I've never known anyone having to buy a bridle, saddle, girth, sturrups, bits etc. for a loan horse. 

Was just pointing out that horses cost money and vets bills are part of those costs.


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

No was out on summer grazing in a field! when I picked the horse up- a car park!?


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## Vodkagirly (20 October 2013)

tegwin12 said:



			I have never made any mention of putting the horse down and this is not something I've considered! Lol!!!!!!! Maybe you should read the entire thread and you will see that the contract was supposed to be drawn up by the owner after the trial - this never happened! You will see that from my previous comments I have chased and chased and chased the owner for the passport to enable me to a) insure the horse and b) legally travel the horse to competitions which was the whole purpose of the loan!!!
		
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Why on earth did you travel the horse without a passport in the first place? a passport ( and insurance) would of saved a lot of heartache.


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## hnmisty (20 October 2013)

I'm amazed that people think that the OP is in the wrong to want to return the horse to the owner but the owner can't afford it and is ignoring all forms of contact when OP has said she is worried she can't afford the horse any more.

If OP had come on here and said "I've got this amazing horse on loan, everything I want, but now I've been offered an all expenses paid 6 month trip to Australia so I want to give it back" I'd have some sympathy for the owner.

But why on earth someone who has had a horse on loan for 4 months should feel obliged to keep funding bills that could lead to her having financial problems with her own horse is beyond me. 4 months isn't very long to develop the loyalty to this horse to want to be spending hundreds of pounds a month on its veterinary care , and nor is this an illness that OP thinks is going to be a one off (infected cut, abscess, whatever). Nor is it something she's "caused".

I wonder how many of you would really be willing to fund the bills for somebody else's horse when you can't afford to!

Which is worse- OP wants the owner to take the horse back as she can't afford the bills, or OP leaves the horse out in the field with no vet care because she can't afford it?!


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

Obviously


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## Moomin1 (20 October 2013)

Vodkagirly said:



			Why on earth did you travel the horse without a passport in the first place? a passport ( and insurance) would of saved a lot of heartache.
		
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I am quite sure OP is not the only person to ever travel a horse without a passport!  Hell, I've forgotten to take my horse's on a number of occassions now!


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (20 October 2013)

Mmmm, think the REAL issue here is that the loaner for her own good reasons (i.e. affordability/vets fees) wishes to discontinue the loan forthwith.

The complication is that no "proper" loan agreement, i.e. written contract, is in place.

The owner is refusing to communicate with the "loaner" even though loaner has said she wishes to now hand the horse back.

"Loaner" hasn't basically done anything wrong! Its just she doesn't feel that she can afford to keep shelling out on veterinary for this horse and wants to discontinue the loan, and having said this in as many words to the owner is experiencing a total blank-wall from them.

Sorry, probably sounding very "preachy" but it does go to show the inadvisable-ness of not having any sort of loan agreement. 

But loaner is perfectly within her rights to want to hand the horse back!!!! 

Just felt this point needed clarification!


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## WelshD (20 October 2013)

At the end of the day while the horse has been on loan the OP HAS picked up the bills, (albeit a little unhappily) she hasnt shirked her responsibility at all, has accepted there is no insurance and has been paying out 

even if there was a contract a 30 day notice period is standard

The OP just needs to action a 30 day notice, I would imagine that any bills up to the point of collection would be settled, the OP doesnt seem unreasonable

Yes the owner is now going to be stuck with a problem but unless the OP can be shown as totally responsible for the problem (as a previous poster has hinted this could be possible) the owner has to suck it up as ultimately the horse is their responsibility


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## Meowy Catkin (20 October 2013)

Tegwin - I know that you didn't mention PTS, it was other posters that did. I wonder if they'd PTS horses with bad mud fever too?

However, it was a mistake to accept the horse at all without a proper loan agreement and the passport. Of course this is easy for me to say, but if anyone who is reading this is thinking about loaning, please learn from this. 

I do hope that it goes well with the solicitor, that the situation is resolved and that the horse is OK.


ETA 




			But loaner is perfectly within her rights to want to hand the horse back!!!!
		
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I agree


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## Amymay (20 October 2013)

tegwin12 said:



			No was out on summer grazing in a field! when I picked the horse up- a car park!?
		
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Great. So you can contact the owner giving a date on which you'll be returning the horse from where you collected it from. Job done.


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## Moomin1 (20 October 2013)

WelshD said:



			At the end of the day while the horse has been on loan the OP HAS picked up the bills, (albeit a little unhappily) she hasnt shirked her responsibility at all, has accepted there is no insurance and has been paying out 

even if there was a contract a 30 day notice period is standard

The OP just needs to action a 30 day notice, I would imagine that any bills up to the point of collection would be settled, the OP doesnt seem unreasonable

Yes the owner is now going to be stuck with a problem but unless the OP can be shown as totally responsible for the problem (as a previous poster has hinted this could be possible) the owner has to suck it up as ultimately the horse is their responsibility
		
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From a welfare point of view in the eyes of the law, both are equally responsible.


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## navaho (20 October 2013)

I honestly cant believe the number of people having a go at the OP. When you loan a horse its on the understanding (unless stated otherwise) that it can be returned to the owner should things not work out. I dont really see the issue, regardless of the reason for ending the loan the owner is at fault for not collecting the horse. Ive 2 on loan with me here, im about to terminate the loan on one, purely due to financial reasons, you have accept as an owner of a horse that you have loaned out that sometime things happens & you need to step up & take responsibility for the horse, if you know full well you wont be able to do that then the horse should have been sold in the first place.


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

The land wasn't hers it was rented - I don't just want to dump the horse ;(


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## Amymay (20 October 2013)

Eriskayowner said:



			At no point did I say they weren't, although I've never known anyone having to buy a bridle, saddle, girth, sturrups, bits etc. for a loan horse.
		
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Quite often a loan horse will come with merely the headcoller worn on the box. Sometimes with tack. But more often not.




			Was just pointing out that horses cost money and vets bills are part of those costs.
		
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I don't think anyone would disagree with that.


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## Woody2013 (20 October 2013)

If that was my horse, I will want it back. I wouldn't expect the loaner to foot vet bills for an ever ongoing medical problem. I will have been upset if the loaner caused it or an accident on their care, etc ... but not a systemic illness.  I wonder how much the owner knew about it beforehand, and happy to offload the horse to someone else. Hence no passport provided as well?  Loaners have a responsibility, but I think in this case the owner should take his horse back and take responsibility for it. 

Good luck with the solicitor's advice x


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## Moomin1 (20 October 2013)

navaho said:



			I honestly cant believe the number of people having a go at the OP. When you loan a horse its on the understanding (unless stated otherwise) that it can be returned to the owner should things not work out. I dont really see the issue, regardless of the reason for ending the loan the owner is at fault for not collecting the horse. Ive 2 on loan with me here, im about to terminate the loan on one, purely due to financial reasons, you have accept as an owner of a horse that you have loaned out that sometime things happens & you need to step up & take responsibility for the horse, if you know full well you wont be able to do that then the horse should have been sold in the first place.
		
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Agree. Quite sad really that OP is getting blasted by certain posters who actually have shown so much support on other threads for someone who in fact hasn't quite told the truth on here! Oh well, the joys of forums!


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## ester (20 October 2013)

WelshD said:



			At the end of the day while the horse has been on loan the OP HAS picked up the bills, (albeit a little unhappily) she hasnt shirked her responsibility at all, has accepted there is no insurance and has been paying out 

even if there was a contract a 30 day notice period is standard

The OP just needs to action a 30 day notice, I would imagine that any bills up to the point of collection would be settled, the OP doesnt seem unreasonable

Yes the owner is now going to be stuck with a problem but unless the OP can be shown as totally responsible for the problem (as a previous poster has hinted this could be possible) the owner has to suck it up as ultimately the horse is their responsibility
		
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Well summarised! The OP has paid the horse's vet bills while he has been in her care. For whatever reason she now wishes to terminate the loan which any normal owner would know could be a possibility given 30 days notice. - I can't see why the OP is in the wrong. 

Sorry OP no other suggestions, the BHS template actually has a not fit for purpose clause too.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (20 October 2013)

tegwin12, obviously hindsight is a good thing, but its not helping with some other posters on here saying now what you 'should' have done.
Action:
Either, send a letter registered post outlining the termination of the agreement on xyz date.
You could perhaps offer to deliver horse to owners nominated place.
Or:
Go & get a 30 day notice on the horse, then at the end of that time you can legally decide what to do (Keep, PTS, sell on or take to abbatoir yourself, the last being the most financially efficient way)
Or:
take legal advice from BHS if you are a member, or try your house insurance if you have no avenues of equestrian cover as you may well have a legal helpline there.

Good luck - I hope you get a resolvement.


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## Meowy Catkin (20 October 2013)

Woody2013 said:



			I wouldn't expect the loaner to foot vet bills for an ever ongoing medical problem. I will have been upset if the loaner caused it or an accident on their care, etc ... but not a systemic illness.
		
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Oh come on now - it's not that bad, it's comparable with bad mud fever and you can prevent it from reoccurring. The horse is not doomed to suffer with the condition for the rest of it's life.


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## WelshD (20 October 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			From a welfare point of view in the eyes of the law, both are equally responsible.
		
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But the loaner can get out of their responsibility for the horse by giving it back. The OP is making sure the horse gets all necessary care currently and I am sure will do up to the day they give it back so the horse isnt going without proper care but once back with the owner its simply not their problem even in the eyes of the law surely?


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## cptrayes (20 October 2013)

Faracat said:



			Oh come on now - it's not that bad, it's comparable with bad mud fever and you can prevent it from reoccurring. The horse is not doomed to suffer with the condition for the rest of it's life.
		
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The loaner appears to be getting advice from her vet that you are not right about this, and he treats the horse and is in a betteyr position to know, I would have thought.


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## Meowy Catkin (20 October 2013)

Well I own a horse that suffers from it, but I accept that I haven't seen this particular horse or spoken to their Vet Re the horse.


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## cptrayes (20 October 2013)

Faracat said:



			Well I own a horse that suffers from it, but I accept that I haven't seen this particular horse or spoken to their Vet Re the horse.
		
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I haven't scoured the whole thread, but I'm not aware that she has confirmed that your horse has the same disease. And surely, as with all diseases, even if it does hers could be a much worse case.

Sorry your horse has it, it doesn't sound nice.


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## Moomin1 (20 October 2013)

WelshD said:



			But the loaner can get out of their responsibility for the horse by giving it back. The OP is making sure the horse gets all necessary care currently and I am sure will do up to the day they give it back so the horse isnt going without proper care but once back with the owner its simply not their problem even in the eyes of the law surely?
		
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Sorry, I think I must have misunderstood what you meant! :-/

Yes you are correct, once the horse is returned and OP has nothing further to do with ANY of it's care, then it's not OP's problem.  

OP sounds to me to be doing the right thing by the horse currently, and it's no use anyone blasting OP for not taking a written contract out now - I think she gathers that was a mistake.  I think OP should make a call to all of the welfare organisations and ask for advice in order to cover her back. I also think that she needs to make the owner aware of this, and the fact that she is taking legal advice on the matter.


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## Honey08 (20 October 2013)

The other thing that stands out to me, is that the horse was "out on it's summer grazing" when OP took it on, so had been living out fine, or was it already ill when you took it OP?  Could it be the OP's grazing that triggers it perhaps?  I don't have much experience of this condition.


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## putasocinit (20 October 2013)

Hope there is a good outcome for the horses sake, once again not their fault, clearly owner doesnt want it back


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## dogatemysalad (20 October 2013)

Goodness, the poor horse is hardly a walking vet bill ! Many of us have horses with this condition and with correct management avoid repeat episodes. 

Basically the OP loaned a horse from a carpark without bothering to sign a contract and obtain the passport. She now wants to return the horse to owner who has lost her job.  

Poor horse. It doesn't deserve either of you.


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## Meowy Catkin (20 October 2013)

Sorry - I assumed that she had confirmed to you via PM that it was LPV.

My horse is recovering, one leg is there and the other two just have three tiny spots to go, at least he only has three white legs. :0


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## Moomin1 (20 October 2013)

OP the other thought which crosses my mind is that if there is no written contract for loan, then essentially you could perhaps class the owner's refusal to take responsibility of the horse as abandonment. Therefore, I would perhaps discuss with the solicitor going about starting a period of notice to the owner in which they can collect the horse, and if not, ALL responsibility and ownership of the horse transfers to you. You can then do as you wish with the horse, including pts or selling on.  Usually, notices are given for about 21 days or thereabouts.


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

The vet said it's an immune response there's no way of knowing what it was - her feed/grazing has not changed for the duration of her stay here the vet said she could be fighting something off a virus perhaps but it's liky to return a few times over the next few months -re prevention there is no real prevention as it's a condition inside the body displaying symptoms on the outside - not a bacterial infection like mudfever - or it can be a sign of liver failure I have had bloods taken which I'm am awaiting the results


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## siennamum (20 October 2013)

Faracat said:



			Sorry - I assumed that she had confirmed to you via PM that it was LPV.

My horse is recovering, one leg is there and the other two just have three tiny spots to go, at least he only has three white legs. :0
		
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If it's anything like my horse with LPV then it will be costing approx. £100 per month in steroids alone, with no guarantee of it getting better. I wouldn't want to take on an auto immune disease unless I had to.


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## WelshD (20 October 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Sorry, I think I must have misunderstood what you meant! :-/

.
		
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lol - I think my fingers type so fast my mind doesnt have a chance to say 'hang on...does that make sense?' 

I think your comment about letting the owner know that the OP is taking legal advice is important - OP I would definitely do that


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## lhotse (20 October 2013)

Not going to comment on the legalities, but just wanted to say that these Facebook sites have a lot to answer for. Having seen some of the dealings going on in the SW and the dirty laundry being aired, I would implore people to be very careful about entering into any loan agreement though FB. I certainly would have been very dubious about picking a horse up in a carpark!! That has just happened around here and it turned out the horse is the subject of an ownership dispute. With no passport, no contract and the owner not wanting it back, maybe the horse is one of the multitude that is missing on loan and that's why the owner doesn't want it back.

Just a thought.....

ETD Sorry, misread about the carpark, serves me right for skim reading! But could still be dodgy if you ask me!


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## cptrayes (20 October 2013)

dogatemysalad said:



			Goodness, the poor horse is hardly a walking vet bill ! Many of us have horses with this condition and with correct management avoid repeat episodes. 

Basically the OP loaned a horse from a carpark without bothering to sign a contract and obtain the passport. She now wants to return the horse to owner who has lost her job.  

Poor horse. It doesn't deserve either of you.
		
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I'd call £400 in two weeks for a condition which is not yet resolved and may flare again a walking vet bill myself.

I am amazed at the level of hostility you and some other posters are showing to someone whose only crime is to want to return a horse to its owner with reasonable notice.


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## Meowy Catkin (20 October 2013)

Photosensitivity has many different causes, but the one thing that is clear is - if you have a horse with white legs, you must put suncream on them (and the nose too if that's got pink skin). 

Tegwin, if you don't get anywhere with the owner, then Moomin's advice is worth discussing with your solicitor.


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## FionaM12 (20 October 2013)

While I agree the OP seems to have acted in haste or rather foolishly by taking a horse with no passport or contract, I wonder what people think a loaner should do if for whatever reason they can't/don't want to care for the horse any longer?

If you own the horse, you can sell, loan, rehome or pts as you think fit. If the horse isn't yours, your only option is to return to the owner. If the owner refuses to have it back, what an earth can the OP do?

In the end, the responsibility for this horse HAS to be with the owner.


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## cptrayes (20 October 2013)

That must cost a fortune in sun cream Faracat???


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

dogatemysalad said:



			Goodness, the poor horse is hardly a walking vet bill ! Many of us have horses with this condition and with correct management avoid repeat episodes. 

Basically the OP loaned a horse from a carpark without bothering to sign a contract and obtain the passport. She now wants to return the horse to owner who has lost her job.  

Poor horse. It doesn't deserve either of you.
		
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I did not loan the horse from a car park I suggest you ready the threads properly. It's not my fault if the woman has no job she should have sold the horse if she wanted a guarantee the horse wouldn't be returned!?


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## hnmisty (20 October 2013)

cptrayes08171 said:
			
		


			I'd call £400 in two weeks for a condition which is not yet resolved and may flare again a walking vet bill myself.

I am amazed by the level of hostility you and some other posters are showing to someone whose only crime is to want to return a horse to its owner with reasonable notice.
		
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This, but I'd add that her only crime is to want to return a horse to its owner with reasonable notice and who is in the mean time footing the vets bills for a horse she knows she doesn't want to keep!

I envy those of you who can easily afford to shell out £200/week for an unknown period of time on vets bills for a horse who have asked the owner (who by ignoring all forms of contact is hardly being a responsible owner) to take back. Or at least you are going on like you can afford that. It remains to be seen whether reality would differ.

Yeah OP should have done this, that and the other, but hindsight is a marvellous thing. If I was in her shoes, within a mere few weeks of funding bills of that scale I would be exceeding my monthly income, and would soon be having to chose between getting the vet out or paying my rent.

ETA: since I'm in a contract the option would be pay my rent...imagine how much grief OP would get on here for having to say "can't afford the vet for the horse I have on loan that I have asked the owner to take back but I'm being ignored".


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## Meowy Catkin (20 October 2013)

Oh - I didn't mean all year round, just the summer. But with my boy, I will probably be switching straight from suncream to mud barrier cream as he's prone to mud fever too. 

I do hope this is worked out and that Tegwin lets us know what happens. I wish them lots of luck, it's a horrible situation.


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## fattylumpkin (20 October 2013)

Leaving the should'ves and could'ves behind, OP I wish you luck, there's been a lot of great advice as per your options and I hope this is all settled quickly in a way that fits everyone, most especially the horse!


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

fattylumpkin said:



			Leaving the should'ves and could'ves behind, OP I wish you luck, there's been a lot of great advice as per your options and I hope this is all settled quickly in a way that fits everyone, most especially the horse!
		
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Agreed an very grateful for the advice thanks to everyone


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## hnmisty (20 October 2013)

dogatemysalad said:



			She now wants to return the horse to owner who has lost her job.
		
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So OP is in the wrong because the owner has lost her job. What if OP lost her job? It's OK for the owner not to take the horse back because she hasn't got a job. But it would be wrong of OP to want to return it if she lost hers? 

As others have said, if the owner couldn't afford the horse back then they should have sold. The whole point of a loan is that YOU CAN RETURN IT TO THE OWNER. heck, you don't even need to give a reason, you just need to give your notice.


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## Pigeon (20 October 2013)

I have to say, if one of mine was on loan, I wouldn't expect the loaner to pay vets bills for an ongoing condition. Sure, minor field injuries/colic/viruses I would expect them to cover, but KS investigations or similar I most definitely would not.


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## FionaM12 (20 October 2013)

hnmisty said:



			So OP is in the wrong because the owner has lost her job. What if OP lost her job? It's OK for the owner not to take the horse back because she hasn't got a job. But it would be wrong of OP to want to return it if she lost hers? 

As others have said, if the owner couldn't afford the horse back then they should have sold. The whole point of a loan is that YOU CAN RETURN IT TO THE OWNER. heck, you don't even need to give a reason, you just need to give your notice.
		
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I agree. If the OP had started this thread by just saying "for personal reasons, I can no longer keep the horse" she might not have had such a bashing.

You surely cannot be OBLIGED to keep a horse?! The reasons for returning aren't really the issue. The fact is, the loaner wants to return it to the owner, with reasonable notice. If the owner can't/doesn't want to keep the horse they can loan to someone else, sell or pts. The loaner can't!


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## MotherOfChickens (20 October 2013)

hnmisty said:



			As others have said, if the owner couldn't afford the horse back then they should have sold. The whole point of a loan is that YOU CAN RETURN IT TO THE OWNER. heck, you don't even need to give a reason, you just need to give your notice.
		
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^^this. there aren't many advantages to loaning, but this is one.


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## Jaycee (20 October 2013)

amymay said:



			Really Jaycee? That's outrageous.
		
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Why is that outrageous?  I signed the contract so that's what I did for the horse when she needed treatment!


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## Amymay (20 October 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Agree. Quite sad really that OP is getting blasted by certain posters who actually have shown so much support on other threads for someone who in fact hasn't quite told the truth on here! Oh well, the joys of forums!
		
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Want to elaborate?


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## Queenbee (20 October 2013)

I'm sorry, op I do sympathise which you to a point, but am I the only one who looks at this and thinks, so, you were happy to take the horse on for a year but you didn't plan it properly, you could easily have insured it with another company, you want to use it but only seem to want the perks, now it needs a bit of attention you want to chuck it on the rubbish heap.  You agreed to have it for 12 months, I'm sorry but although I agree you can probably get out of this, you did make an agreement, it doesn't matter if it was on fb or on paper... It's an agreement.  I have to say if I were the owner I'd want my horse back anyway because someone who takes my horse on would be expected to live in the real world and take the rough with the smooth.  If the horse hooned around in the field, hurt its leg and was off work for three months, you should still feel obligated to care for it.  If I was loaning my horse out and someone was paying towards his care I'd be really ticked off if he was unridable and they wanted to shirk their financial responsibility.  You know how much horses cost, what can go wrong, the financial implications, you took this horse on but you are not willing to care for it as if it were your own which essentially it sounds like you initially agreed to do.  Sorry but I don't have as much sympathy for you as others seem to do.  I do have sympathy that you haven't had a perfectly healthy horse all throughout (but then that's life).  I do have sympathy for the owner who assumed her horse was in a safe caring home (not such a great assumption).  My greatest sympathy goes to a horse that no one seems to want or give a damn about and who faces an uncertain future.  

Somewhere you state that you have never bonded with the horse, you also say you had a trial period... Why did you take the horse on then after this, oh yeah, because it suited you, now it doesn't.

Nope, sorry but not much sympathy for you or the owner. Poor horse


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

Queenbee said:



			I'm sorry, op I do sympathise which you to a point, but am I the only one who looks at this and thinks, so, you were happy to take the horse on for a year but you didn't plan it properly, you could easily have insured it with another company, you want to use it but only seem to want the perks, now it needs a bit of attention you want to chuck it on the rubbish heap.  You agreed to have it for 12 months, I'm sorry but although I agree you can probably get out of this, you did make an agreement, it doesn't matter if it was on fb or on paper... It's an agreement.  I have to say if I were the owner I'd want my horse back anyway because someone who takes my horse on would be expected to live in the real world and take the rough with the smooth.  If the horse hooned around in the field, hurt its leg and was off work for three months, you should still feel obligated to care for it.  If I was loaning my horse out and someone was paying towards his care I'd be really ticked off if he was unridable and they wanted to shirk their financial responsibility.  You know how much horses cost, what can go wrong, the financial implications, you took this horse on but you are not willing to care for it as if it were your own which essentially it sounds like you initially agreed to do.  Sorry but I don't have as much sympathy for you as others seem to do.  I do have sympathy that you haven't had a perfectly healthy horse all throughout (but then that's life).  I do have sympathy for the owner who assumed her horse was in a safe caring home (not such a great assumption).  My greatest sympathy goes to a horse that no one seems to want or give a damn about and who faces an uncertain future.  

Somewhere you state that you have never bonded with the horse, you also say you had a trial period... Why did you take the horse on then after this, oh yeah, because it suited you, now it doesn't.

Nope, sorry but not much sympathy for you or the owner. Poor horse 

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Excuse me I actually said this is difficult because I HAVE bonded with the horse! After the 2 weeks trial I was not aware of an autoimmune condition!!!! Obviously!!! If u take the time to read through the thread properly you will be I have taken no chances and the horse has received the best treatment. You will also see the issues I have had re insurance and contracts.  Circumstances change i can't keep the horse and I can't sell the horse rehome the horse give the horse away so it has to go back to its OWNER - and even if it's was just tht it simply doesn't suit me anymore then yes I am well within my rights to return the horse - that's the whole point of a loan - at some point for some reason the horse is returned


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## honetpot (20 October 2013)

I have loaned out several of my ponies on numerous occasions with a contract, passport, tack, vet checked etc., but at the end of the day contract is worth very little in practice, the shortest amount of notice for return has been two days and I actually picked it up the following day. You can not loan out anything thinking its no longer a responsibility and have a plan B, if they don't want it any animal it has a home. Peoples circumstances change all the time and I don't think having a contract helps where an animal is concerned it just a frame work and sets out intentions and it is hoped that the person you are loaning to understands their responsibilities.
  Serving an abandonment notice takes time, and your YO contract is with you so any bills after the period of notice I think you would have to take her to the Small Claims Court and prove you have been reasonable, the trouble is while it is with you its you that have a duty of care. I would do some digging on Facebook and try and find her address and send everything recorded, I would also get it scanned to see if its chipped and get a passport so you can at least move it somewhere cheaper. I wonder how many are going to be dumped this winter? 
Good luck I know how stressful it is.


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

Thanks honetpot for the advice x


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## Moomin1 (20 October 2013)

amymay said:



			Want to elaborate?
		
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Not really.  But believe me, it makes me cringe.


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## Amymay (20 October 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			Not really.  But believe me, it makes me cringe.
		
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Well it's a moot point in that case.


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## Arizahn (20 October 2013)

This has put me off loaning.

Poor horse, hope someone will agree to take responsibility for it! Agree owner should hold the insurance policy for the animal, loaner should have separate cover as rider, and pay for regular stuff/treatment costs up to the excess amount. And contract to prove ownership would presumably help in case of abuse/theft if nothing else!

Here are some strips you may tear off me if so desired. After what I saw yesterday, I really don't care enough about humans to pay attention, tbh...

<self immoliates to save time>


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## Moomin1 (20 October 2013)

amymay said:



			Well it's a moot point in that case.
		
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To you yes. To me, I only wish so much 'support' and 'advice' had not been given, as said horse would have been better off.


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## Amymay (20 October 2013)

There we are then...


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## Dusty85 (20 October 2013)

OP i feel for you.....BUT... i do feel that you should have got things in order before you picked the horse up in the first place!! 

If you arent able to afford hundreds in vets fees, then you should have been more assertive in making sure the horse was insured before you picked it up. What if the horse had injured herself in the trailer on the way home?  

You should have also made sure that you had a contract properly drawn up (even if it was typed by you or the owner on a bit of paper!) once again, before you picked the horse up. I also would have refused to take the horse until i had the passport. 

I agree with what someone else has said- if youre taking a horse on loan, then you should be responsible for all of the costs- as if she were your own. You are perfectly in your rights to hand the horse back though- this is one of the benefits of the loan agreement after all!! 

I guess lesson learnt- even when dealing with friends- make sure things are done properly- friendships will soon fall apart in this sort of situation!! 


I hope you get this resolved, and i hope the horse gets the care and love she is deserving off, rather than being unwanted.


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

Dusty85 said:



			OP i feel for you.....BUT... i do feel that you should have got things in order before you picked the horse up in the first place!! 

If you arent able to afford hundreds in vets fees, then you should have been more assertive in making sure the horse was insured before you picked it up. What if the horse had injured herself in the trailer on the way home?  

You should have also made sure that you had a contract properly drawn up (even if it was typed by you or the owner on a bit of paper!) once again, before you picked the horse up. I also would have refused to take the horse until i had the passport. 

I agree with what someone else has said- if youre taking a horse on loan, then you should be responsible for all of the costs- as if she were your own. You are perfectly in your rights to hand the horse back though- this is one of the benefits of the loan agreement after all!! 

I guess lesson learnt- even when dealing with friends- make sure things are done properly- friendships will soon fall apart in this sort of situation!! 


I hope you get this resolved, and i hope the horse gets the care and love she is deserving off, rather than being unwanted.
		
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Hind sights a brilliant thing.... I wish I had pots of money to keep her it's a bad situation and of course I regret trusting that the passport would be sent and trusting that after the trial a formal contract was written and I regret that both these things didn't happen, it's the situation now I have to deal with not things that should have happened 4 months ago - I am in agreement with your points and accept I was somewhat naive - however the fact remains that she is the owner and the horse is hers and she cannot simply refuse to have her back.


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

tegwin12 said:



			Hind sights a brilliant thing.... I wish I had pots of money to keep her it's a bad situation and of course I regret trusting that the passport would be sent and trusting that after the trial a formal contract was written and I regret that both these things didn't happen, it's the situation now I have to deal with not things that should have happened 4 months ago - I am in agreement with your points and accept I was somewhat naive - however the fact remains that she is the owner and the horse is hers and she cannot simply refuse to have her back.
		
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Oh and re the accident in the trailer scenario id assume until after the trial the owner was responsible for insurance but since learned that she never bothered with it - I did try to sort insurance but the passport was never sent, even though I requested it on several occasions.....


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## OrangePepper (20 October 2013)

I feel sorry for the horse.  I would suggest that both the op and the owner are clearly not sufficiently responsible to loan or own a horse.  There is neither a contract in place and the op has taken the horse away without a passport.


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## Dusty85 (20 October 2013)

tegwin12 said:



			Oh and re the accident in the trailer scenario id *assume* until after the trial the owner was responsible for insurance but since learned that she never bothered with it - I did try to sort insurance but the passport was never sent, even though I requested it on several occasions.....
		
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Assuming things is what got you into this mess in the first place!!!!


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

OrangePepper said:



			I feel sorry for the horse.  I would suggest that both the op and the owner are clearly not sufficiently responsible to loan or own a horse.  There is neither a contract in place and the op has taken the horse away without a passport.
		
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I arrive with a transporter to collect and the owner tells me she has left passport at home I travelled a long way to collect - she assured me it would be posted. Re the contract you will see from earlier posts this was promised by the owner but never happened - she as the owner should surely decide on the terms on how she wishes her own animal to be cared for. Re feeling sorry for the horse she is up to her knees in a fluffy shavings bed in a warm stable rugged up with haylage coming out of her ears receiving the best possible care for her condition, her welfare is my priority whilst I have her I simply cannot continue to keep her so she must be returned to her owner - if her owner is unable to provided the level of care she needs then she as the owner is in the position to find the horse a new home - I as the loaner am not, my only option is to return the horse to the OWNER


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

Dusty85 said:



			Assuming things is what got you into this mess in the first place!!!!
		
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 Agreed


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## WelshD (20 October 2013)

I dont think for a minute that if there had been a contract and insurance that the situation would have turned out any different

The owner clearly cant afford to have the horse back and is trying desperately to dodge the issue


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## tegwin12 (20 October 2013)

WelshD said:



			I dont think for a minute that if there had been a contract and insurance that the situation would have turned out any different

The owner clearly cant afford to have the horse back and is trying desperately to dodge the issue
		
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Couldn't agree more! And I don't doubt it! I think if I was at the end of the 12 months I'd still be in the same situation


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## Arizahn (20 October 2013)

It is not legal to travel a horse without a passport, had you been stopped you would all have been in serious bother! Rather large fine attached, I believe.


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## Dusty85 (21 October 2013)

WelshD said:



			I dont think for a minute that if there had been a contract and insurance that the situation would have turned out any different

The owner clearly cant afford to have the horse back and is trying desperately to dodge the issue
		
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A) if the horse was insured then it wouldnt seem such an urgent issue of getting the horse back to its owner due to lack of funds. The horse would also be getting the correct treatment (whatever that is..i dont know as i don't have any experience of this condition) as neither the loaner or the owner would be paying- the insurance company would

B) if there was a contract then there would be a more legally binding situation, and a clearer way of solving this issue


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## tegwin12 (21 October 2013)

A) agreed and you will see the problems I have had regarding taking out insurance in earlier posts. 

B) agreed and you will see the problems I have had in obtaining a contract in earlier posts 

You are not telling me anything I don't already know believe it or not and whilst I appreciate your input it's not entirely constructive or helpful. 

I am trying to find a solution that helps the horse myself and the owner and should haves and why didn't you's are not really the answer. What now. Is the question.


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## WelshD (21 October 2013)

I think had you had a contract you could throw clauses at this woman all day long and not have her be any more cooperative so i still dont see what good it would have done if thats any consolation

My guess is that she will fold quicker than Superman on laundry day once she gets a solicitors letter

She is trying it on hoping you will back down and keep the horse, you just have to out- stubborn her


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## Queenbee (21 October 2013)

Op, apologies that I misread your bond with the horse, I'm also aware that you have paid vets fees, but obviously you don't want to.  Yes, a loan is returnable but you agreed to a loan period of a year, I do get where the owner is coming from on this, you agree a 12 month loan, at the end of which you could return or renew, you did not put any get out clause to return the horse inbetween.  In addition, you seem to be making out this is the owners fault, crystal balls are a wonderful thing but neither you nor the owner had foresight.  Whilst this will ultimately be the owners problem, you took on responsibility for this horse for 12 months and now, because something has gone wrong you want to shirk that.  A loan is for the period agreed unless a get out clause has been agreed.  Interestingly if the horse was fine and healthy and the owner suddenly said she wanted it back (for whatever reason) I'm sure you would be the first to come on here moaning that she can't do that because you had a 12 month agreement.

 If you realised that circumstances change, you should never have been so irresponsible as to agree to such a lengthy loan period without a get out clause, you should swallow your own stupidity in my opinion and get on with it.  Also, yes, you explained that you enquired with one company and that they wanted vaccination records and passport details I've used a number of companies and none of them have ever asked for vaccination records and only one has asked for passport details. I'm certainly not saying that you are lying but if it were me I'd have got on the phone to the other companies and arranged insurance  with one of them or at the very least enquired about it.  Interestingly, you are saying that you took a horse on loan that belonged to someone else, and rode it without any public liability insurance.  Furthermore, what exactly would you have done if the horse had an accident which was down to you and needed surgery, essentially you would not have been able to pay for wrecking someone's horse.   Personally I can see that both you and the owner have been hugely irresponsible, and yes I agree that its bad form that the owner is being awkward over this because if it was me and I found out a loaner had not insured my horse I'd have the bloody thing back in my care in a heart beat.


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## Marydoll (21 October 2013)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			Having put my own horse on loan in the past AND having got a mare on loan at the mo: I'm seeing this both ways!

When you take a horse on loan you take it lock-stock-and-barrel basically and its up to the loaner to pay all the bills, vets and all, BUT in this instance the loaner has said she wants to discontinue the "loan". However there is no formal contract in place detailing the period of the loan.

Having had a situation where my horse was out on loan and the loaner wanted to cancel it after only five weeks, I am in some sympathy with the owner as she may well not be able to have the horse back at the moment, especially with winter coming on, HOWEVER, I don't really see why if loaner for her own good reasons (in this case, vet fees) for not continuing the loan and has told the owner so clearly, then the owner should/must take heed of that and if they can't have the horse back then arrange either another loan, OR if veterinary treatment/fees is likely to be an ongoing issue, arrange to have the horse PTS for humane reasons rather than sell the poor creature on and have it hauled around the markets until it ends up in a dog tin.

Sorry loaner, but before taking on any loan you SHOULD have made sure that you'd signed a proper loan agreement; plus the owner too should have ensured this happened. But alas no good shutting the stable door after horse has bolted.

Think it a good idea OP for you to talk to a solicitor. But ultimately the facts are (1) the horse isn't yours (so why should you have the expense of someone else's horse when you've already said you want to hand it back); and (2) having informed the owner that you wish to terminate the loan, they are continuing to ignore that and YOU are left with the bills.

Sounds like the owner is hoping you'll take the horse (plus bills) on permanently........... think that the passport issue to start with was a bit of a warning bell TBH.

You COULD be drastic and write a recorded delivery letter to the owner and say that as they're continuing to ignore your desire to hand the horse back - and YOU are having to pay out vets fees for it, that unless they get back to you with say 30 days that you will be arranging humane destruction of the animal and all vets fees to date will be accruable to them........

But anyway, see what your legal beagal says.
		
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Erm, no you dont need to take it lock stock and barrell including vets bills. I have a horse on loan for a year and our agreement states i pay either the £150 excess if its an insurance job or up to £250 for any illness injury, any more, its the owner or insurance that pays. I also insisted they took out LOU as well in the event he was injured in the field or competing while with me.
i also have a clause in that if the horse becomes lame long term or has an ongoing injury or illness where he cant be ridden he goes back, i have a 4 week notice period to return to owner. We drew the contract up between us and it went back and forth 2-3 times before we came to our agreement, i wouldnt take anything without a robust loan agreement in place to protect everyone, including the horse.


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## Moomin1 (21 October 2013)

Queenbee said:



			Op, apologies that I misread your bond with the horse, I'm also aware that you have paid vets fees, but obviously you don't want to.  Yes, a loan is returnable but you agreed to a loan period of a year, I do get where the owner is coming from on this, you agree a 12 month loan, at the end of which you could return or renew, you did not put any get out clause to return the horse inbetween.  In addition, you seem to be making out this is the owners fault, crystal balls are a wonderful thing but neither you nor the owner had foresight.  Whilst this will ultimately be the owners problem, you took on responsibility for this horse for 12 months and now, because something has gone wrong you want to shirk that.  A loan is for the period agreed unless a get out clause has been agreed.  Interestingly if the horse was fine and healthy and the owner suddenly said she wanted it back (for whatever reason) I'm sure you would be the first to come on here moaning that she can't do that because you had a 12 month agreement.

 If you realised that circumstances change, you should never have been so irresponsible as to agree to such a lengthy loan period without a get out clause, you should swallow your own stupidity in my opinion and get on with it.  Also, yes, you explained that you enquired with one company and that they wanted vaccination records and passport details I've used a number of companies and none of them have ever asked for vaccination records and only one has asked for passport details. I'm certainly not saying that you are lying but if it were me I'd have got on the phone to the other companies and arranged insurance  with one of them or at the very least enquired about it.  Interestingly, you are saying that you took a horse on loan that belonged to someone else, and rode it without any public liability insurance.  Furthermore, what exactly would you have done if the horse had an accident which was down to you and needed surgery, essentially you would not have been able to pay for wrecking someone's horse.   Personally I can see that both you and the owner have been hugely irresponsible, and yes I agree that its bad form that the owner is being awkward over this because if it was me and I found out a loaner had not insured my horse I'd have the bloody thing back in my care in a heart beat.
		
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See your point, but fact is, OP can't afford said issues. What would you suggest she do then?


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## Queenbee (21 October 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			See your point, but fact is, OP can't afford said issues. What would you suggest she do then?
		
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I'm not saying she should not send him back, I'm also not saying that the owner shouldn't take him back, I think my real point is that she has come on here moaning about the situation and the owner but that in my opinion she got herself into this mess, she should have got insurance (you certainly can do that without a passport), I'm normally very tolerant of loaner posts but this has really ticked me off because the horse is absolutely not to blame and ultimately whichever way it goes no one wants to deal with it or its problems, when ultimately both parties do and should have some sense of responsibility.  Ultimately, she could rock up at the owners house tomorrow and drop the horse off and I doubt whether other than bad feeling and harsh words there would be any repercussions but I suppose I want her to stop banging on about what an irresponsible person the owner is and how it's her responsibility, because in my eyes the same can be said for the loaner.  We all say that hindsight is a wonderful thing, but willful ignorance (ie taking on a horse you can't afford if something goes wrong and not insuring it) is something that doesn't enamour me to someone.  

Op, take the horse back tomorrow, you clearly don't want it or to have to deal with or pay for its problems, personally, you shouldn't have got it on trial in the first place, as I said, this horse could have gone for 12 months completely healthy being ridden uninsured by you, hence why you should never have had it.


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## siennamum (21 October 2013)

I am amazed people think the OP should keep a horse which it now transpires has long term potentially career ending illness. Can't be ridden, needs mega steroids and so close monitoring. What a bunch of weirdoes, would you expect her to keep a loan horse if it needed retiring?
OP you are a very patient person I'd have been pulling my hair out with some of these responses.


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## Sussexbythesea (21 October 2013)

siennamum said:



			I am amazed people think the OP should keep a horse which it now transpires has long term potentially career ending illness. Can't be ridden, needs mega steroids and so close monitoring. What a bunch of weirdoes, would you expect her to keep a loan horse if it needed retiring?
OP you are a very patient person I'd have been pulling my hair out with some of these responses.
		
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Agree with this surely the main reason for loaning a horse rather than buying one is to avoid the ultimate responsibility buying entails. Likewise if you don't want a horse coming back you sell it not loan it.


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## Skipadeedooda (21 October 2013)

This is what owners risk when loaning a horse that it can be returned at anytime. Ultimately the responsibility lies with the owner. They were irresponsible for not insuring the horse initially, I have a horse on loan as well as my own and the owner has it insured and I only have to pay excess if and when required. I think the OP is perfectly within there rights to return the horse with 30days notice as the owner hasn't fulfilled there obligation to ensure an agreed contract is in place, provided OP with required docs to insure horse/transfer insurance (obviously owner didn't have it insured) and haven't handed over passport so vaccs can be kept updated. This smacks of irresponsible owner and even if horse was fighting fit, I'd still be inclined to return horse as this would be ringing alarm bells which OP is doing. I wouldn't think there is any legal issue here, owner doesn't have a leg to stand on. I would proceed with notice of return and solicitors letter. Good Luck xx


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## fattylumpkin (21 October 2013)

I wouldn't wish this kind of financial heartbreak or stress on anyone.  I'm hoping Moomin1 is right and a letter will do the trick.

Mores to the point, the owner should have informed OP about her own situation right from the very start and OP would've been much better able to make decisions regarding the horse, insurance and her own financial situation should something go wrong.  It's a big shock to find out that a horse has been effectively dumped on you and abandoned after its vets bills have eaten your grocery food for the month.  If the owner had been frank from the beginning, OP would never have gotten into this mess.


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## JillA (21 October 2013)

I haven't had time to trawl through all the posts, and I can see the problem from both sides. But the question for the OP has to be "What would you do if you didn't have that exit route?". In other words, what if the horse was yours? How would you put the horse first if you couldn't afford the vet bills? PTS? Suck it up and do the best for the horse? Or try and get a charity to deal with the problem? Just asking.


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## cptrayes (21 October 2013)

I wonder how all the perfect people with 20/20 hindsight telling the OP what a stupid and uncaring person she is manage to survive their boring relentlessly perfect  lives.

Give the OP a break, she knows what she got wrong and wanting advice on how to return the horse is not it.

Though asking for it on here may turn out to be something she also regrets in hindsight, given some of your responses!


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## cptrayes (21 October 2013)

JillA said:



			I haven't had time to trawl through all the posts, and I can see the problem from both sides. But the question for the OP has to be "What would you do if you didn't have that exit route?". In other words, what if the horse was yours? .
		
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No, it doesn't. She would have bought a horse if she wanted that responsibility. She loaned it.

Your questions are irrelevant to the issue, which is how to reasonably return a loan horse to the owner who does have the responsibility for the answer to those questions


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## JillA (21 October 2013)

It isn't irrelevant because at the end of the day, the only one who really matters is the horse - an animal who has health problems and who has no say in who provides the relief or treatment. Owners/loaners can argue all they like, but so long as they are thinking of themselves the horse falls through the gap.


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## jokadoka (21 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I wonder how all the perfect people with 20/20 hindsight telling the OP what a stupid and uncaring person she is manage to survive their boring relentlessly perfect  lives.

Give the OP a break, she knows what she got wrong and wanting advice on how to return the horse is not it.

Though asking for it on here may turn out to be something she also regrets in hindsight, given some of your responses!
		
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^^^^^^

This!!! Totally!!


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## cptrayes (21 October 2013)

JillA said:



			It isn't irrelevant because at the end of the day, the only one who really matters is the horse - an animal who has health problems and who has no say in who provides the relief or treatment. Owners/loaners can argue all they like, but so long as they are thinking of themselves the horse falls through the gap.
		
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She posted asking for advice how to return the horse, which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do and resolves her responsibility for the horse.

Your questions are purely for your own interest, and spectacularly irrelevant, since if she had owned the horse it would be insured.

I totally and utterly disagree with you that the only one that matters here is the horse. Her problems could swiftly be resolved with a bullet. People's problems cannot.

And as for the horse falling through a gap, can you not see that the original post is all about how this kind and caring loaner can ensure that no gap arrives?


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## MiniMilton (21 October 2013)

cptrayes said:



			I'd call £400 in two weeks for a condition which is not yet resolved and may flare again a walking vet bill myself.

I am amazed at the level of hostility you and some other posters are showing to someone whose only crime is to want to return a horse to its owner with reasonable notice.
		
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This

The OP had the horse treated and now wants to terminate the loan. The owner refused to give passport or to draw up a contract. I don't see how the OP is at fault.

If the only thing holding you to the horse is a loose discussion on FB, then surely the messages requesting passport or stating a contract is to be drawn up also hold some weight?

The owner is chancing their arm and being very irresponsible.


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## DragonSlayer (21 October 2013)

Poor horse,  maybe the best thing is PTS if the owner can't afford him back, she's certainly not going to pay for expensive vet's fees needed if she can't afford basic livery! 

At risk of being called evil, maybe this is the convo OP should be having if horse is always going to have health issues.....or would owner prefer him untreated and in pain in a field....?


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## AshTay (21 October 2013)

The owner of a horse has the responsibilty to be able to provide a home and care for any horse that they own. In my opinion, no one should put a horse out on loan if they're not prepared to take it back at relatively short notice. If they can't afford it or don't have time then they should sell.
A loan is exactly that - a loan. They can end suddenly (or with agreed notice period) for any number of reasons even if they seem ideal and perfect in the first place.
What if things were different and the OP turned out to be neglecting the horse or mistreating it? Would the owner take it back then or have they pretty much wiped their hands of the horse now??

I have every sympathy for the OP who has done all she financially can for the horse and is now trying to do the one thing that differentiates a loan from a purchase and give the horse back.

I don't have any useful practical advice but I hope that this situation can be resolved and the horse finds a new home where it continues to receive the care that it needs.


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## hnmisty (21 October 2013)

JillA said:



			I haven't had time to trawl through all the posts, and I can see the problem from both sides. But the question for the OP has to be "What would you do if you didn't have that exit route?". In other words, what if the horse was yours? How would you put the horse first if you couldn't afford the vet bills? PTS? Suck it up and do the best for the horse? Or try and get a charity to deal with the problem? Just asking.
		
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OP has clearly stated several times that she tried to get the loan horse insured, but wasn't able to becsuse of the owner. She also already has her own horse, which is presumably insured. thus I would presume she would therefore claim for the treatment on her insurance, much as most of us would do. 

And why would that make any difference anyway? I've seen threads on here from people who can no longer claim for treatment  on their insurance and they're worried about affording it on their own. They've often been told they've done the best for the horse etc and could have it PTS with a clean conscience. They haven't been lambasted for saying they can't afford the bills any more, and that's been when they've owned the horse ie had full responsibility. 

Regardless of whether you think OP is morally right or not to return the horse, the issue is that the owner is refusing contact whilst the OP is paying for vets bills for a horse she doesn't want. That's hardly showing a lack of responsibility. It's quite obvious to me who is the irresponsible one here, and it's not OP. 

OP is thinking of herself, you're right. She's also thinking of her own horse, and also the loan horse whose vet bills she is footing even though she plans on returning it to the owner.

Let's put this the other way- would you put your horse out on loan and then ignore all contact from the loanee? Is that what a responsible owner would do? Know that ssomeone can't afford the vets bills for it and may actually run out of money and be physically unable to pay the vets bills as much as they'd like the vet out?

Evidently some of you have so much money coming out of your ears that you never have to worry about chosing between paying the vets bills for a horse you no longer want (perfectly reasonable, the whole point to a loan) and being able to eat.

Also wonder (in my long and irritated rant, almost done, sorry!) What response OP would be getting if her reason for terminating the loan was because she was scared of the horse. I had a loan once that I was terrified of, she would pin me up against the gate. We didn't have a contract yet drawn up, and the owners had just booked an Xmas break so were keen for us to keep her. We told them if they didn't take her back we'd just drop her off at the place we got her from anyway. somehow I doubt she'd being vilified for being a coward.


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## Orangehorse (21 October 2013)

The OP asked for advice on how to return the horse to the owner, which is fair enough.  I think all you can do is write a recorded letter to the owner to say that after "date" the horse is no longer your responsibility.

(I heard of a well known eventer who threatened an owner that if the horse wasn't collected she would open the gate and let the horse loose on the road, and that was after a trial to buy!).

What I cannot understand is WHY there are still these "loan" theads appearing on H & H.  There have been enough tales of woe, from both sides, about loans.  If an adult takes on a valuable/expensive and living creature without thinking about the consequences and then find themselves in a spot, then I can only say, sorry, didn't you think this out in the beginning?  People wouldn't do this with a car, why with a horse?

I have had horses on loan, and loaned them out, never with any problems but both sides knew where they stood from the start.


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## DW Team (21 October 2013)

OP Could you send a registered letter to her with the effects 

This letter is formal notification of formal end to the loan agreement.  The horse is no longer fit for the purpose that I took on the loan horse xxx on.  I require you to arrange pick up of said horse on   Date or arrange to have horse PTS by this date.  Yours


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## Jaycee (21 October 2013)

Just a thought OP if you know the owners address to send a solicitors/recorded letter to, could you not just go and talk to her face to face?  I think I read that it was some distance from you, but under the circumstances is it not worth a try?


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## ester (21 October 2013)

Queenbee said:



			I'm not saying she should not send him back, I'm also not saying that the owner shouldn't take him back, I think my real point is that she has come on here moaning about the situation and the owner but that in my opinion she got herself into this mess, she should have got insurance (you certainly can do that without a passport),
		
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I am not aware of any insurance company which - if you read their T&Cs does not stipulate that the horse must be vaccinated otherwise veterinary cover is void (the same as they presume it is regularly wormed/seen by a farrier etc). The presence of the passport is irrelevant.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (21 October 2013)

I agree with "hnmisty" above........ having had mine on loan (and worried myself to death about him the whole time he was gone) I think the owner is taking the P. big-time TBH. She's washed her hands of HER horse, fobbed it off onto someone else and got someone who's spending a fortune on vets bills for their horse, so basically they're laughing.

Also agree with "DW Team" - tho' probably this sort of owner wouldn't give a fig about their horse anyway; they're just glad to dump their problem on someone else.

Feel very sorry for OP in this position.


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## Amymay (21 October 2013)

ester said:



			I am not aware of any insurance company which - if you read their T&Cs stipulate that the horse must be vaccinated otherwise veterinary cover is void (the same as they presume it is regularly wormed/seen by a farrier etc). The presence of the passport is irrelevant.
		
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I must admit I was scratching my head over this one last night.


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## ester (21 October 2013)

me too, and - if the insurance decided it was a pre-existing condition they wouldn't pay out for it anways. 

I think the OP has been more than fair to the horse and the owner.

(I realised I missed out a do not in my post amymay but you get the jist!)


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## el_Snowflakes (21 October 2013)

What a mess.....do you still have access to the agreement you made on FB? If so if get a print out of it & send her a copy to show her you have proof of the deal that was made. Can you buy just drop the horse off at her yard? Poor horse


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## el_Snowflakes (21 October 2013)

I think so d people are being a bit ridiculous. The point of a loan is to have a horse but not have the level of responsibility you would if you were an owner. Is never loan mine out but if I did & she became unridable I certainly wouldnt expect someone to be be paying out huge vets fees to keep MY horse.


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## Amymay (21 October 2013)

el_Snowflakes said:



			I think so d people are being a bit ridiculous. The point of a loan is to have a horse but not have the level of responsibility you would if you were an owner.
		
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Of course you have the same level of responsibility toward the horse as if you owned it.

However, what you also have is a 'get out' clause.  Because the minute the horse is no longer wanted/required you get to return it.


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## Bobbly (21 October 2013)

It's clear that the OP is within her rights to return the horse for whatever reason she chooses. I'm wondering if the horse has actually got a passport at all, hence the reluctance to hand it over as there may not be any recording of veterinary attendance, especially as OP had planned to vaccinate the horse. Technically then she would not be legally transporting the horse back to it's owner wherever that may be? Does OP know who passported the horse and maybe could contact them to double check that one exists? Contract or not I'd be giving the owner a notice letter stating it's return by a certain date otherwise it will be sold and the owner forwarded the proceeds. (Not less vet costs but maybe transport and sale fees).


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## jrp204 (21 October 2013)

Maybe the owner knew the horse had the condition, possibly why she's holding onto the passport & the issues with insuring it?
Its easy when you're sitting behind a computer to be rightious, as we see time and time again.
OP, good luck, you sound as if you have done everything you can with the horse re. care, vets etc.


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## dianchi (21 October 2013)

amymay said:



			Originally Posted by ester View Post 

I am not aware of any insurance company which - if you read their T&Cs stipulate that the horse must be vaccinated otherwise veterinary cover is void (the same as they presume it is regularly wormed/seen by a farrier etc). The presence of the passport is irrelevant. I must admit I was scratching my head over this one last night.
		
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Best check your policies then as this is in EVERY Insurance co, T's and C's!
And many will use the lack of jabs to get out of paying!

OP wouldn't have had access to the vet records for it to be proved without passport. And obv she would be declaring that the horse is loaned not owned.

OP I do hope that you send the 30 day termination and that you can get out of this situation


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## Jaycee (21 October 2013)

dianchi said:



			Best check your policies then as this is in EVERY Insurance co, T's and C's!
And many will use the lack of jabs to get out of paying!

OP wouldn't have had access to the vet records for it to be proved without passport. And obv she would be declaring that the horse is loaned not owned.

OP I do hope that you send the 30 day termination and that you can get out of this situation
		
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^^^
This - I have also know for insurance companies to ask for the horses passport, maybe that only applies if you are loaning the horse?


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## MotherOfChickens (21 October 2013)

Jaycee said:



			^^^
This - I have also know for insurance companies to ask for the horses passport, maybe that only applies if you are loaning the horse?
		
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both my equine and canine policies state that they won't cover conditions that aren't vaccinated against that could be. so if you opt out of equine flu and they get equine flu they wouldn't be covered for it. also anything preventative such as teeth, farriery/trimming and worming must be up to date if you are claiming anything related to it.


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## MagicMelon (21 October 2013)

Pigeon said:



			I have to say, if one of mine was on loan, I wouldn't expect the loaner to pay vets bills for an ongoing condition. Sure, minor field injuries/colic/viruses I would expect them to cover, but KS investigations or similar I most definitely would not.
		
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I wouldn't necessarily either, however I would expect them to pay for anything that happened during their care - so I'd expect them to pay any vets bill (even for a new condition) up until their notice ended and the horse was due to be returned.  Its like when I did someone a favour I thought by loaning them one of my ponies as a companion to theirs as they had had to put their other horse to sleep.  She ended up letting her get laminitis, once we took her back the lady then moaned about having to have paid the vets bills for the laminitis whilst the pony was still with them - WTF?!  I hate loaning horses out but am about to do the same with one of my horses (permanent loan) but am dreading it for this very reason... too many people seem to take a horse on loan then something happens and they dont want the expense so give it back to the owner - its fine giving the horse back after the notice period but until then the horse should basically be treated as if they 'own' it since its in their sole care.  

Its wrong for the owner to not take the horse back - all you can do OP is give her notice and tell her the horse must be returned to her after that time.  The owner should be trying to advertise her for loan or sale again right now if she doesn't want her back.


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## MrsElle (21 October 2013)

I joined HHO back in 2007 to ask advice on the self same problem.

I took a horse on loan, had no contract, no passport and huge problems.  He was not as advertised, and I rang the owner to ask her to take him back after yard owner hinting that our days were numbered on her yard due to his behaviour.  Owner wouldn&#8217;t answer phone to me, or respond to texts, so I sent her a recorded delivery letter, as advised by the good people on here.  She knew it was from me as it had a return postcode on it (as required for recorded delivery), so she refused to accept it and it was returned.  I then text her again, saying that if she hadn&#8217;t made arrangements to remove him within seven days I would return him, either to the livery yard he came from (where she no longer had a place), or her front garden.  She collected him two days later&#8230;..

I then took on another loan horse, my lovely Ellie.  I treated her as my own, and due to her age she was not able to be insured, so illness and injury bills were paid for out of my pocket.  I had to retire her after I had her a year, but wouldn&#8217;t have dreamt of returning her, so she lived as a rather large field ornament and nanny to my youngsters for the next two years, until I had to have her pts.  

Perhaps it&#8217;s just me, but if I take on a horse I take it on through good and bad if possible, apart from the first one who was dangerous, and at 17.3 I wasn&#8217;t willing to risk my life with him.

However, circumstances change, and if this horse has an ongoing and expensive condition I understand why you may wish to return him.

I currently have a 16.3 wobbler, a 14.2 youngster who has physical and mental scars and may not ever be able to be ridden, an uncatchable Shetland and a 16.1 TB who is relatively normal.  I think. All are on loan.  I am a collecter of useless horses!


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## Maesfen (21 October 2013)

I haven't read past half the first page but my basic answer would be recorded letter giving her 30 days to collect/you deliver horse back to owner and if she doesn't reply or agree with this then to say the horse will be put down on the 31st day; no qualms about it.

You were both very bloody stupid to not have a proper agreement sorted out and have brought it upon yourselves, now you need to deal with it.


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## ester (21 October 2013)

dianchi said:



			Best check your policies then as this is in EVERY Insurance co, T's and C's!
And many will use the lack of jabs to get out of paying!

OP wouldn't have had access to the vet records for it to be proved without passport. And obv she would be declaring that the horse is loaned not owned.

OP I do hope that you send the 30 day termination and that you can get out of this situation
		
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yup that was my point, I forgot to actually write a complete sentence . Queenbee suggested that the OP should have found an insurance company that didn't mind about vaccinations, I can't believe one exists.


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## Miss L Toe (21 October 2013)

Join the BHS as Gold Menbers and use the Legal Helpline, have all the info and the timelenes ready prepared, and also keep a diary


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## pip6 (21 October 2013)

I don't see the point of many people laying into OP about what she should have done, sure she's aware of that now & can't change the past. For whatever reason she is free to return the horse after giving notice, she is the loanee, not the owner. She has paid vet bills whilst horse in her care. That others would choose to keep the horse is their personal choice, we are all different & OP has done nothing wrong.

OP, how did your visit to the solicitor go? Can you see a way to progress? If it helps, my mare has photosensitivity, I keep her away from alfalfa, sugar beet, lucerne & she is fine (thankfully doesn't need sunblock even though white grey, no pink on nose & only one sock). I also put biotin in her feed as it finds it helps to keep this & mud fever at bay. By managing her feed she leads a normal life, living out 24/7 until fields wet, then only coming in at night.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (21 October 2013)

amymay said:



			Of course you have the same level of responsibility toward the horse as if you owned it.

However, what you also have is a 'get out' clause.  Because the minute the horse is no longer wanted/required you get to return it.
		
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Agreed.


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## Noodles_3 (21 October 2013)

I don't see how the Op is the bad person in all this! Christ. She's been dam good I think, she's caring for the horse, paid out x amount of vet bills and hasn't just 'dumped' the horse back and made any rash decisions.

Okay a few silly mistakes at the beginning, no proper contract etc but you can hardly blame her for wanting to return. I find the owner is being outrageous! It is her responsibility more so than the loaner and she is acting ridiculous. Unfortunately, loans don't always work out, both parties should be aware of this but the owner should of thought about what happens if it doesn't work out. May be choosing to loan wasn't the best idea. I don't know. I just don't think Op is in the wrong in this case.


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## Spiritedly (21 October 2013)

amymay said:



			Of course you have the same level of responsibility toward the horse as if you owned it.

However, what you also have is a 'get out' clause.  Because the minute the horse is no longer wanted/required you get to return it.
		
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Yup and if you own the horse and it becomes no longer wanted/required you can sell it, pts or even loan it out. The op doesn't have those options so if she feels she can no longer keep it, for whatever reason, then returning it is the only thing she can do.


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## Carrots&Mints (25 October 2013)

Op you got 18 pages worth of replies on here and then put the same question on horse gosip?


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## Amymay (25 October 2013)

Carrots&Mints said:



			Op you got 18 pages worth of replies on here and then put the same question on horse gosip?
		
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Really?  Link please...


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## Carrots&Mints (25 October 2013)

amymay said:



			Really?  Link please...
		
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http://horsegossip.proboards.com/thread/174403/owner-loan-horse-back

Looks like it was posted on the same day though lol


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## Amymay (25 October 2013)

Carrots&Mints said:



http://horsegossip.proboards.com/thread/174403/owner-loan-horse-back

Looks like it was posted on the same day though lol
		
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Ah, well that's fair enough.


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## risky business (25 October 2013)

I wonder if OP ever got something sorted?


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## its_noodles (25 October 2013)

may be op is really desperate for advice...


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## fattylumpkin (25 October 2013)

I hope we get more news on OP as well


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## Capriole (25 October 2013)

Is there some kind of problem with someone posting on more than one forum? I can't think why anyone would feel the need to point it out on here and on Horse Gossip.


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## Nettle123 (25 October 2013)

Capriole said:



			Is there some kind of problem with someone posting on more than one forum? I can't think why anyone would feel the need to point it out on here and on Horse Gossip.
		
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I wondered that too!!, The more advice the better surely?


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## MotherOfChickens (25 October 2013)

Carrots&Mints said:



			Op you got 18 pages worth of replies on here and then put the same question on horse gosip?
		
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so?


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## babymare (25 October 2013)

Heaven forbid people post on other forums! does it really matter?


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## MiniMilton (25 October 2013)

Capriole said:



			Is there some kind of problem with someone posting on more than one forum? I can't think why anyone would feel the need to point it out on here and on Horse Gossip.
		
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Crime of the century so it seems


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## Mithras (25 October 2013)

The OP does have a contract, just not a written one.  Working out what its terms are from Facebook is another matter though.

The OP might want to mitigate her losses by trying to return the horse, but if the contract of loan is really for 12 months and the owner requested she insure the horse for vet's bills, then I cannot see why the OP as loaner can avoid being responsible for 12 months care of the horse and vet bills incurred during her care of it.  I'd also be aggrieved as owner if the horse had developed a medical condition while in the care of the loaner, and one which is relatively common and easily treated but is not being.  

Most insurance companies don't even specify vettings for horses insured for less than £2000 including vets' bills, and simply specify passport number for ID.  

Any horse, whether you buy it or loan it, may develop lameness or injury which might prevent riding for a while.


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## Capriole (25 October 2013)

Mithras said:



			The OP does have a contract, just not a written one.  Working out what its terms are from Facebook is another matter though.

The OP might want to mitigate her losses by trying to return the horse, but if the contract of loan is really for 12 months and the owner requested she insure the horse for vet's bills
		
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She has apparently tried to insure, but can't without the passport which the owner has not given her.




			then I cannot see why the OP as loaner can avoid being responsible for 12 months care of the horse and vet bills incurred during her care of it.  I'd also be aggrieved as owner if the horse had developed a medical condition while in the care of the loaner, and one which is relatively common and easily treated but is not being.
		
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It is being treated. I don't think it's clear if the condition was pre-existing or not.




			Most insurance companies don't even specify vettings for horses insured for less than £2000 including vets' bills, and simply specify passport number for ID.
		
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She can't get the passport.




			Any horse, whether you buy it or loan it, may develop lameness or injury which might prevent riding for a while.
		
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Very true.


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## Mithras (25 October 2013)

Capriole said:



			She has apparently tried to insure, but can't without the passport which the owner has not given her.
		
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In that case, she shouldn't have taken possession of the horse.  Her decision.


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## Capriole (25 October 2013)

Well, I'm sure everyone's 20/20 hindsight vision is no end of help to the OP.


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## abracadabra (25 October 2013)

It's everyone's inalienable right to be a smug so-and-so though, don't forget.


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## Mithras (25 October 2013)

Capriole said:



			Well, I'm sure everyone's 20/20 hindsight vision is no end of help to the OP.
		
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Smug or not, what on earth do you think happens if a loan horse injures itself during the loan and isn't insured?  What if it got caught on a barb wire fence and needed stitches, or fell on the road?  With a loan horse, you are basically getting use of a horse for free ie you don't pay the purchase price, and I don't think making sure you arrange insurance for the period its with you is unreasonable.  Its not a question of "hindsight vision", its basic common sense.


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## lula (25 October 2013)

dogatemysalad said:



			Basically the OP loaned a horse from a carpark without bothering to sign a contract and obtain the passport. She now wants to return the horse to owner who has lost her job.  

.
		
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what are you talking about? this horse was no loaned out of a ruddy car park, strewth!


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## lula (25 October 2013)

Dusty85 said:



			Assuming things is what got you into this mess in the first place!!!!
		
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jesus, some of you are just so perfect when you're judging someone else's f*k up on a forum.
Everyone makes a mistake trusting someone once in life before you become the cynical old witches the rest of us are, when you've learned too many times that trusting what people tell you gets you nowhere and you really cant trust anyone.

Maybe some of you would do well to remember that and give the OP a break She came here for advice not a lot of tut tutting and reminding her of how stupid she's been.


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## Zero00000 (25 October 2013)

Mithras said:



			Smug or not, what on earth do you think happens if a loan horse injures itself during the loan and isn't insured?  What if it got caught on a barb wire fence and needed stitches, or fell on the road?  With a loan horse, you are basically getting use of a horse for free ie you don't pay the purchase price, and I don't think making sure you arrange insurance for the period its with you is unreasonable.  Its not a question of "hindsight vision", its basic common sense.
		
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If you read the entire post you will see that a contract was drawn up for the trial period and owner kept hold of passport (she 'forgot' it on day of collection) and new contract was to be put in place once trial ended,loaner decided to keep horse after trial, new contract was never seen neither was the passport, loaner tried to insure horse but could not without passport, despite asking on numerous occasions so was unable to get insurance for the horse,

I dont think its unreasonable at all, you no longer want the loan, so owner has to take back said horse, I loaned my horse, horse came back to me before the year was out, I needed a little extra time to get money in order but as soon as I was sorted I took my girl back, no matter the reason I wouldn't argue or refuse, shes my horse, my responsibility, on loan or not.


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## Fellewell (25 October 2013)

In a perfect world the owner should face prosecution for not passing on the passport to the new owner/keeper. The keeper, however could face a fine of up to £5,000 for travelling a horse without a valid passport. I'd go after the owner if it was me.


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## lula (25 October 2013)

Fellewell said:



			In a perfect world the owner should face prosecution for not passing on the passport to the new owner/keeper. The keeper, however could face a fine of up to £5,000 for travelling a horse without a valid passport. I'd go after the owner if it was me.
		
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since when did we live in a perfect world? when we do, lets start with bigger issues to solve first like over breeding and toughening up welfare legislation on slaughter houses.


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## Arizahn (25 October 2013)

Fellewell said:



			In a perfect world the owner should face prosecution for not passing on the passport to the new owner/keeper. The keeper, however could face a fine of up to £5,000 for travelling a horse without a valid passport. I'd go after the owner if it was me.
		
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I am a bit surprised that the transporter agreed to move the horse without its passport, tbh. It seems to be an awful mess. OP, how is the horse doing currently?


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## Fellewell (25 October 2013)

lula said:



			since when did we live in a perfect world? when we do, lets start with bigger issues to solve first like over breeding and toughening up welfare legislation on slaughter houses.
		
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You can do what you like. I'm sticking to the subject of this thread.


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## miss_c (25 October 2013)

tegwin12 said:



			I arrive with a transporter to collect
		
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Transporter should have refused to take the horse surely?


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## Polos Mum (25 October 2013)

miss_c said:



			Transporter should have refused to take the horse surely?
		
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That would be a big issue with returning the horse, any transporter worth their licence wouldn't risk taking the horse without the passport - very common for jo public not to bother beause we rarely get stopped and would only get a fine, but for a professional the risk to their licence isn't worth it. 
Unless 'transporter' was just a mate with a trailer.


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## cptrayes (25 October 2013)

Fellewell said:



			In a perfect world the owner should face prosecution for not passing on the passport to the new owner/keeper. The keeper, however could face a fine of up to £5,000 for travelling a horse without a valid passport. I'd go after the owner if it was me.
		
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I'm pretty sure it's the transporter who was at fault here, not the loanee.


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## Sunshine (25 October 2013)

Surely if part of the contract was for the owner to supply the passport to enable the loaner to insure, travel and use the horse then the owner was the first person to breach the terms of the contract (albeit a verbal or informal one). At that point the loaner had the right to refuse to continue with the loan due to the breach. As time goes on that she is maintaining the horse she is making it more difficult to support her argument that she has repudiated. She needs to send the owner a formal letter and make arrangements asap.


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