# Navicular/soft tissue changes and bar shoes - what are your thoughts/experiences?



## Meowy Catkin (26 June 2013)

As title. 

Has your horse been diagnosed with this problem, did you try bar shoes (egg or heart or both?) and was the treatment successful/unsuccessful?


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## star (26 June 2013)

Horse has been diagnosed with caudal hoof pain.  Currently waiting for MRI scan results.  Tried wedged pads for last 8wks but they dont seem be suiting him so they're now off.  Waiting to see what we'll try next but it def wont be eggbars as cant find any articles recommending the use of those these days.


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## Meowy Catkin (26 June 2013)

Yes I've heard that they are outdated too. It's my friend's horse (she doesn't have an account on here so I'm asking for her). Her Vet wanted egg bars on, so the Farrier has fitted them a few days ago, but the horse has already pulled one off.

ETA. This is an old thread about the same horse if anyone wants more info.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=577017


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## star (26 June 2013)

my vet hasn't even mentioned eggbars and hopefully wont!  There was an article in InPractice magazine (vet mag) last month about navicular syndrome and they said eggbars were very much out these days.  They mentioned heart bars, wedges etc and also were in support of barefoot as an alternative option.


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## Meowy Catkin (26 June 2013)

She wont consider BF at the mo, as the horse was briefly BF but was never fully comfortable on smooth tarmac, this has made her worried about taking his shoes off again (the trimmer did take far too much hoof off IMO).


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## star (26 June 2013)

It's not an option for mine either at the moment.  He is lame without shoes or hoofboots and has very thin soles.  I haven't written it off as an option but there are other routes I want to explore first.


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## Bobella (26 June 2013)

No thoughts, but interested in replies as we're going for mri next week. Took shoes off last week in preperation and thought any time barefoot may help. So far she is very comfortable, but I've already done too much googling considering I don't yet know the extent of the soft tissue damage!


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## Meowy Catkin (26 June 2013)

I hope that both of your horses come sound.


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## Leg_end (26 June 2013)

My boy had graduated wedged heart bars and they didnt work for him. We also tried steroid injections which made no improvement so I took him the barefoot route and he was sound on a circle after 8 weeks. Not for everyone but its work for us 

I hope you find success in your choices too


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## pistolpete (26 June 2013)

Mine is in egg bars and is sound, touches wood! Not sure why or how it works but while he is ok I am ok. Thanks to this place at least I know there are other options if this stops working. Been in egg bars since September last year.


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## pines of rome (26 June 2013)

I have a TB with navicular, I tried him in eggbars! Initially they seemed great and I thought it had been a good decision, but this was shortlived and after six months he was becoming more uncomfortable especially after shoeing and would stand and point a lot of the time!
I made the decision to go barefoot even though my vet thought it was a bad idea! The eggbars had ruined his feet, they were weak with paper thin soles.
Barefoot has not been an easy option for us, he was so sore to start off with that he had to be turned out in boots and pads for about eleven weeks, but he has slowly improved, much healthier feet which he can go out bare on , if its smooth tarmac and for anything else he is booted!
I also now have a much happier horse who does not point anymore and I think if he can do it, there are plenty more with "typical TB rubbish feet" that could too!!
It does require patience as in some cases it is not a quick fix!


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## paulineh (26 June 2013)

Have been down the road of Eggbar shoes with and without wedges. 

Have been down the road of injections into the joints etc.

Wasted all my Insurance money and have now taken my mares shoes off. Changed the diet etc. Todate nearly 4 weeks down the line and she is sound in walk, along the road and forest tracks up and down small hills to.

She is so much happier with out her shoes.


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## star (26 June 2013)

Leg_end said:



			My boy had graduated wedged heart bars and they didnt work for him. We also tried steroid injections which made no improvement so I took him the barefoot route and he was sound on a circle after 8 weeks. Not for everyone but its work for us 

I hope you find success in your choices too 

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When you say they didn't work, what problems did they cause?  Vet is now talking about graduated shoes and I'm just not convinced given the horse's reaction to graduated wedges.


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## TPO (26 June 2013)

Apologies in advance for any mistakes. On my phone and know this will be long!

My mum, against my advice, bought a mare unvetted and didn't insure. The mare was from down south, presented sound when we viewed and tried her. It was another fortnight before the transporter could bring her up the road.

She had a fairly long journey and came off the lorry walking short. We thought (hoped) she was just stiff but as it didn't improve vet was called, x rays taken and navicular diagnosed.

Time rolled on; she was retired to the field and managed on 1/3 sachet of bute that over 18mths ended up being one sachet.

Original practice was a mixed practice. Head vet said he couldn't really see anything on the x ray so had sent the plates to the vet uni hospital for a second opinion. A very small bone cyst was reported to be the reason for the navicular, so small our vet couldn't see it, and we were instructed to carry on as is until she broke down? Vet also said it was fine to take a foal off her and would be a shame not to given her breeding etc. We did not take a foal btw.

With no answers coming from any direction I figured there was nothing to lose by trying this barefoot shenanigans that I'd briefly read about on here.

I knew rock all and was of the impression that only ponies and cobs could be barefoot.

So trimmer came, pulled shoes, trimmed feet, sold me those really thick pads that you use alone ( they have them on Equine Podiatry Supplies and are the pads that aren't comfort pads, the big white things) and told me to buy boots. She took photos and advised me to feed Hi-Fi lite, mag ox heavy and Equimins Diamond Omega. I was told to have her out as much as possible ( she was a VERY good doer) and if she trotted in the field that was a good sign. Mare wasn't happy on anything apart from grass but I was told to walk her over stones.

I didn't know anything about barefoot but I hated seeing mare so uncomfortable and couldn't bring myself to walk her.

At this point I changed to a purely equine practice. They were ( are) vehemently anti- barefoot and advised ( told) me to shoe asap. Under vets instructions I had her shod with wedges (wedged eggbars). I was ridiculously happy as here I was, a good owner paying for a special vet and getting special expensive shoes on every 4 wks. 

I should perhaps mention that despite asking for the original x rays for 2 yrs I was never shown them. When I moved practice the new practice requested and got the plates. New vet brought the plates with him and as he pulled them out of the envelope I could clearly see massive lollipop lesions on the edge of the navicular bone. It does make me wonder what original vet (& vet hospital) weren't seeing!

I can't remember the exact dates but think I moved to the equine practice at the end of feb 2009 and got the " remedial" shoes on around March time.

Mare was pts Nov 2009 as it had advanced. She was on two bute a day and rapidly going down hill.

The experience with the trimmer (EP) and subsequent advice and opinions from " expert" vets just reaffirmed to me that horses NEED shoes.

There is then another epic tale regarding my one in a million TB mare. The short version is, that despite passing a five stage vetting, I've never felt she was quite right. Other things happened that were blamed but even after they were treated I still felt that there was something going on. Again I prided myself in being a good owner. Never longer than 6wks between shoeing by a vet approved farrier, used equine vets and I fed according to expert opinions. No expense spared on cubes, mixes and supplements as instructed by expert nutritionists. I've always wanted to learn more and done all I could to further my knowledge; everything I learnt confirmed that I was doing the right thing for my horses.

So still thinking mare wasn't right I trotted her up for equine vets who found nothing. I'm sure they thought I was barmy. This trot up would be around oct 2009.

I moved to a different catchment area and certain things lead me to getting that yards vet out. This was march 2010. This vet said spavins and kissing spine.

I took mare to vet uni hospital in April 2010 for a full work up. Definitely no ks or spavins and she was passed sound.

May 2010 she was noticeably lame but initially it seemed to improve with box rest and hosing/icing. When it came back in June I got my vets back. Things weren't looking good... I took her back into their clinic the following week and advanced navicular was diagnosed. Vet said that based on the x rays it would have been under lying for at least 9 mths. You do the maths...

The options were limited; denerve, chemical denerve or bute her until she broke completely. I didn't agree wuth these " options" and despite my previous bad experience I asked about barefoot to be told absolutely not. I decided to have her pts so that she would not have any further pain or discomfort.

Although I was completely heart broken I had a small comfort that I'd done my best, had " experts" involved and there really was nothing that I could have done.

And then my path crossed CPTrayes...

Her posts lead to me starting one about barefoot "curing" navicular. In turn I went out and bought Pete Ramey, Jaime Jackson & Feet First books. 

I could barely read them through my tears. Everything just made sense; just plain old common sense. How could shoes ever have fixed or saved my girls???

So my reason for this lengthy, and probably thread killing, post is that you said your horse CAN'T be bf, then really the question is WHY can't he/she?

I'd give anything for my time over. A chance to fix the root cause and not mask it.

Surely only a matter of time until it becomes accepted that shoes physically CAN'T help/fix/cure navicular and that barefoot really is the only option.

Tbh the best person to ask is someone who is completely non horsey. It just doesn't make any sense to nail a fixed metal rim onto a mobile load carrying concussion absorbing structure!


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## Leg_end (26 June 2013)

star said:



			When you say they didn't work, what problems did they cause?  Vet is now talking about graduated shoes and I'm just not convinced given the horse's reaction to graduated wedges.
		
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They compressed his heels further and made no improvement to his way of going or soundness. We tried for three shoeing rounds and although he initially improved it was only a couple of weeks before he went downhill again. He was ok in a straight line (but he was prior to any intervention!) but circles were an issue.

I wasn't willing to delay any further without action.


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## TPO (26 June 2013)

Star- wedges will rotate the P3 angle. Especially with thin soles you can see why that's an issue...


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## star (26 June 2013)

His pedal bones are currently at one degree angle to his sole so maybe the vet wants the wedges to try and improve this? Not a good idea if it's gonna send his pedal bones through his soles though. I need to talk to vet and farrier tomorrow but not happy with the wedged anything idea.


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## pistolpete (26 June 2013)

So sad to think any horses suffer unnecessarily. Especially when (myself included) we are following strict veterinary guidance. Farriers too are not in the business of laming horses intentionally. I find the fors and against so baffling.
Guess we all just have to find out for ourselves. At least there are choices!


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## Meowy Catkin (26 June 2013)

Very interesting post TPO, thanks for posting. I am very sorry that you lost two horses in such a heartbreaking way.

When the owner asked me what I would do with the horse if he was mine, I said that I would send him to Rockley, but she's worried by BF as he wasn't quite right without shoes before. 

She has seen my own horse (who was nearly PTS with hoof problems causing tendon issues) recover fully once the shoes were off and a new Farrier was hired, but she wants to try remedial shoeing and as he is her horse, that is her decision to make.

ETA.



			Guess we all just have to find out for ourselves.
		
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PP- this does seem to be the case.


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## WellyBaggins (27 June 2013)

My horse has impar ligament strain and me and my farrier both have a hatred for egg bars but after an MRI at leahurst the vet there recommended egg bars, we had tried graduated bar shoes with equipak, they helped but not for long so after discussion with my vet who also is not a fan, we decided to give them a go, now I have to say, although they did not make him sound, they made quite a difference to his feet in two shoeings, he grew quite a lot of heel, more than any other shoeings had managed.  I decided to turn my horse away for a year so took them off, but I would put them back in if his feet deteriorated at any point.


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## cptrayes (27 June 2013)

I have returned two horses to full work after long term lameness with a barefoot rehab.  One was still lame in bar shoes, the other was resolved for about six months, then lame again, in bar wedges.


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## Christmas Crumpet (27 June 2013)

I have posted a few times about this...

My little mare was bilaterally lame in front with reverse rotated pedal bones, collapsed heels and generally pretty knackered (not including the kissing spines and spavin...). 

Vet suggested graduated heartbars. I was very sceptical esp. after reading up about them at length on the internet. I said we could try them but they were not to be a long term solution. She felt very, very strange with them on and I hated seeing her in them. She had 2 sets on and then I said enough.

She had her shoes taken off in March and is totally field sound. She has been retired now because I didn't think it was fair on her to try and get her right again. She is 17 though and has had a fairly hard life. I honestly believe it is a lifetime of shoeing that got her feet so bad in the first place. 

My way of thinking now is that the day a horse can't be shod normally (i.e egg bars/heart bars/graduated wedges is suggested) is the day the shoes come off. I know how painful it is to wear high heels or wedges and how differently they make you walk. I refuse to put my horses through anything like that again. Sorry if that's not much help!!


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## AnShanDan (27 June 2013)

I'll join in 

I have a horse recently diagnosed with ddft issues in both front feet with navicular type changes starting. This was on MRI about 6 weeks ago.

He has heart bar shoes on atm but I am planning to get them off in the next week or two and try him barefoot. The prognosis wasn't good for return to full work (jumping up to 1.20) and guarded for anything much, so rubbish really 

However, I have a horse on the yard belonging to a livery client, and he is in heart bars with a mild navicular diagnosis from 2010. His symptoms are much improved and he is comfortable, but he is 21 and semi-retired anyway. My own horse is only 8, so I feel it is worth trying to get him sound for the long term, and the only realistic way of doing this is without shoes in the first instance. His feet don't look terrible externally, but obv. aren't healthy internally.

My own vet is supportive and positive about my plan, not so sure about my farrier.


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## Holly Hocks (27 June 2013)

TPO - what a wonderfully honest post!  

My horse has navicular in both front feet - gone barefoot.  Too much to go into, but yes it was the right decision for me.  I never even tried remedial shoeing.  And mine is a TB.  Manages fine on tarmac but will boot for any stoney rides.


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## TPO (27 June 2013)

Now I'm on a PC I decided to look back for me "how does BF "cure" navic thread" so here it is: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=416024

Some very good replies on it.

In the interest of balance here's a post I made at the time of new equine vets (who funnily enough I am no longer with!) telling me to put shoes back on:http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=235081

You live and you learn... I just hope that by being honest that one day someone else can learn by my mistakes and either not put their horse(s) through it and ultimately not lose them.

Sorry to single you out WellyBaggins but I'm interested in your reply where you said if the feet deterioate you'd put eggbars back on. I'm genuinely interested in your view point. How do you think nailing on shoes will help the foot? 

I've seen in several threads users say that either they shoe or shoes are needed to support and protect the foot yet no one, so far, has been able to elaborate on those statements as to the how and why. Would you be willing to share your view point? I'm genuinely interested as I can't understand the rationale behind it. 

FWIW my point of view NOW (my previous posts clearly show that it wasn't always so!) is that if a foot deteroiates I need to look at what's going on inside and review feed and/or the stimulation that the foot receives. It if needs protection then a boot and pad offers that where as a shoe is only a rim approx 0.5cm depth and width; what about the rest of the foot?

Sorry to take it off topic and thank you in advance.


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## pines of rome (27 June 2013)

I agree with you about boots and pads TPO, I took my boy down a path today that had big stones along it, he managed well in his boots, where as previously he had struggled in eggbars! Boots give better protection than shoes.


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## star (27 June 2013)

Got the MRI results for my horse today and it is all good - no damage to any of the soft tissues so just have to try and sort out his foot balance a bit better. He is seeing Liphooks remedial farrier in a couple of weeks but if I have my way he won't be shod with anything wedged or barred.


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## mightymammoth (27 June 2013)

TPO what a moving post x


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## Equilibrium Ireland (28 June 2013)

TPO, great post. I was also a negative nelly on the whole BF thing too. I have done a complete turnaround. And I now have my older TB mare bare. If I look back on the history of when she started going lame I know realise she was mechanically foundered at 10months pregnant by a butcher of a BS. Mare had been bare all her life and and I was left with a crippled heavily pregnant mare with pony feet. It was horrific. 6 months later she had an abcess which at the time my vet thought could be an infection in the bone. We treated agressively and the boot I made out of sheet cotton, vet rap, and duck tape, and other materials was epic. She did not have an ifected joint but we shod with pads and she was better but she has deteriorated. She got to where she isn't holding weight and tests say nothing wrong but I felt it was low grade pain. I have kept shoes on her because she was so crippled without. For the first 2 weeks we made padded boots. Now she's out of them and doing ok. She was never in work so I hand walk but also let her out in the arena to have a run around on soft ground to encourage movement. She is letting her guarded posture down if that makes sense. Two nights ago she took off at a trot across the hard ground and had a buck. That was amazing because she wasn't doing that in shoes. So work in progress. This forum has been so helpful. Oberon, CP, Lucy, they all really help you see what's what.

Terri


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## Equilibrium Ireland (28 June 2013)

Should mention that abcess episode I'm quite sure was a result of fallout from that butcher trim. 

Terri


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## Pale Rider (28 June 2013)

TPO, quite a brave post, but one which is heartwarming. Lightbulb moments can sometimes be hard to deal with, I know.

Currently, three separate people who live close to me are going through the pain of a navicular diagnosis. There is only one equine practice in the area, they have prescribed bar shoes and all the usual traditional remedies. They have advised that the prognosis isn't good and the owners should prepare to make the decision.

We have given lots of information and where to get more on barefoot, Rockley Farm, Jamie Jackson, Pete Ramey and Tomas Teskey amongst others.

Unfortunately, these horses will, I feel, end up being shot. The owners look upon barefoot akin to black magic and are sceptical of anything that doesn't come from their specialist equine vets.

'You can take someone to knowledge, but you cannot make them think.'


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## amandap (28 June 2013)

I'm so sorry for your pain TPO and sadly I have read of others including myself in the same or similar situation. We can't change the past but we can change the future so try to take comfort in the things you have learned and how this will help you in the future.x

I feel so very strongly that it's about time the traditional treatment rationale by vets etc. is changed, it mostly seems to follow the same pattern, more 'support' and wedging so the horse can function but so often, eventually the support that can be devised by humans comes to a very sad end. Wake up and smell the coffee for horses' sake! The more hooves are 'protected' by clamping and abnormal angle changing the weaker they get!

Needed to get that off my chest.


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## PoppyAnderson (28 June 2013)

TPO said:



			I'd give anything for my time over. A chance to fix the root cause and not mask it.

 structure!
		
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Love your post and have quoted the above sentence as it's exactly how I feel. I still think of horses from 15 years ago who had to endure vets and farriers 'forcing' horses to be shod in all manner of heart bar shoes and wedges. In truth, they were probably doing what they thought to be the best thing at the time and our knowledge and understanding has come on so much since then.


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## PoppyAnderson (28 June 2013)

WellyBaggins said:



			after an MRI at leahurst the vet there recommended egg bars, .
		
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Likewise and I just flat refused. Box rest and remedial shoeing is their go-to response.


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## fairyclare (28 June 2013)

I am having the same battle with my vet at the moment, he has given my girl the all clear to be ridden again but wants the shoes and pads to stay on, I want them off.
She has brilliant feet, X rays show that the hoof wall is aligned well with the inside structure.
his arguement is that she needs the extra padding of the pad on the frog to encourage the frog to act as a cushion - my arguement is, without the shoe and pad the frog would be doing exactly that, as nature intended........

I have til the 2nd July to decide if I go with the vets way of thinking or I follow my gut feeling.....


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## cptrayes (28 June 2013)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Likewise and I just flat refused. Box rest and remedial shoeing is their go-to response.
		
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As, it seems is their ' poor prognosis'   - a 20% chance of ever returning to work given to a horse I used to own who was back in full work after eight weeks of a barefoot rehab. The horse was already barefoot but had been allowed to grow a 'shoe' of horn.


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## amandap (28 June 2013)

fairyclare said:



			She has brilliant feet, X rays show that the hoof wall is aligned well with the inside structure.
his arguement is that she needs the extra padding of the pad on the frog to encourage the frog to act as a cushion - my arguement is, without the shoe and pad the frog would be doing exactly that, as nature intended........

I have til the 2nd July to decide if I go with the vets way of thinking or I follow my gut feeling.....
		
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Why tip the pedal bone then? Whats wrong with a normal hoof angle and comfortable exercize using pads and boots if required?  

I wish you the best.


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## Meowy Catkin (28 June 2013)

I feel like I'm going to ask the dumbest questions ever... but here we go anyway...  

Why are Vets and Farriers so keen on remedial shoeing if it doesn't work in the majority of cases?

Plus, are there any proper scientific studies showing that remedial shoeing helps 'navicular'?


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## amandap (28 June 2013)

I think it's a great and fundamental question Faracat. I certainly don't know but it is what they are taught and what is traditionally used. I'm behind you asking the research question, it's been discussed before and not much was sited except small, short term studies if my memory is correct.
The research is something that could, in part, be done in retrospect from records I would have thought.

ps. fairyclare,I made an assumption your vet meant wedged pads with my pedal bone comment. Apols if that isn't correct.


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## Leg_end (28 June 2013)

Faracat, I think its because it is what they were taught and some are so blinkered that they don't think there is any other way. My vet is fantastic, he supported me although he wasn't entirely convinced that BF would make a difference, he was interested but wary. He was already spreading the word before B came home from Rockley and now has his third referral there (with 5/6 others talking about it). Buddy only came home in Feb 

It makes me sad that some people are so rigid in their thinking - I had a really tough time with people wanting me to fail and being incredibly negative (and almost disappointed) when things improved. I understand that it is a massive culture shift and definately not the norm but I still don't understand why it is viewed with such distate from some. I don't go around belittling people who choose to shoe their horses (even if I look at them and cringe) so I don't know why people think its ok to be so vocal about my choice.. 

Apologies OP - rant over


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## Meowy Catkin (28 June 2013)

I understand, but I'm beginning to feel that traditional hoofcare is stuck in the days of cupping and leeches. I know that Bracy Clark's research was dismissed at the time, but 200 years later and not much has moved on.

Hell, lets ask another dumb question - has any proper research been done that shows the benefits of shoeing a healthy hoof with a normal shoe?


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## fairyclare (28 June 2013)

amandap said:



			ps. fairyclare,I made an assumption your vet meant wedged pads with my pedal bone comment. Apols if that isn't correct.
		
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When I first read your comment I thought WTF, then I read this and re read my post - I did not explain myself very well.
She currently has plain pads on with a raised from area, no wedges.

I am 99% sure the shoes are coming off, the more I read the more I am bemused by this blinkered view of the vets and farriers. 
I will talk to my farrier before I decided 100% but unless he has something amazing to say to change my mind they are coming off


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## PoppyAnderson (28 June 2013)

The majority of people I know continue to show their horses and view barefoot to be akin to lentil weaving. It's still 'out there' as a preferred option and if it wasn't for this forum, I'd probably still be of the same mindset. It's the single biggest benefit I've taken from this forum and an so grateful for the experts on here who continue to offer their advice. I've found far less resistance from farriers than vets interestingly. Never once had a farrier encourage me to put shoes on, which is more than I can say for vets and others, who believe shoeing is the only option.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (28 June 2013)

Wow Poppy, my experience is the same. This forum has made a huge difference for me too. My farrier has also been very supportive on bare. 

Terri


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## abailey (28 June 2013)

Not had time to read the whole thread but a big thumbs up for barefoot  (especially as most authorities on heart bars/pads/tildren etc will tell you that you may only get a couple of sounds years as this route is not a fix just a bandaid).....my mare (TB) was diagnosed with navicular last September and I , against veterinary advice, went barefoot.  Its been a long process and it really did take a while before she was comfortable but we are now going fantastically.  I strongly believe that most folks whose horses 'can't go barefoot' basically cave to early as, understandably, can't bare to see their horses uncomfortable or aren't willing to lose a years competing, boots will usually make them comfortable enough to do a little work initially.
We've been jumping at home, out xc schooling and now ready to go out competing.  Its diet, diet, diet ..my girl hasn't seen a blade of grass since last year and has never looked better (and of course a good trimmer and possibly boots initially!) but she's moving better than she ever did......
Good luck x


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## abailey (28 June 2013)

Pale Rider said:



			TPO, quite a brave post, but one which is heartwarming. Lightbulb moments can sometimes be hard to deal with, I know.

Currently, three separate people who live close to me are going through the pain of a navicular diagnosis. There is only one equine practice in the area, they have prescribed bar shoes and all the usual traditional remedies. They have advised that the prognosis isn't good and the owners should prepare to make the decision.

We have given lots of information and where to get more on barefoot, Rockley Farm, Jamie Jackson, Pete Ramey and Tomas Teskey amongst others.

Unfortunately, these horses will, I feel, end up being shot. The owners look upon barefoot akin to black magic and are sceptical of anything that doesn't come from their specialist equine vets.

'You can take someone to knowledge, but you cannot make them think.'
		
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It's very sad, isn't it?  I've always had my horses shod and certainly would have considered myself very skeptical when i first went barefoot but I'll never shoe another horse (I have 2 youngsters that will benefit from this  ).   It is good news though that more and more folks are willing to see sense.  I have a livery on my yard that has seen the results with my mare and she is now barefoot too and thriving  x


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## Copperpot (28 June 2013)

I have been informed by my farrier today that he wants graduated heart bars on my horses back feet with some kind of rubber filling in them. £220 a set! Horse has been unshod behind for 8 months now. He is having his hocks injected again next week. Farrier is happy not to do this but having seen the x rays he said it may help get his pedal bone back where it should be. I was hoping he could unshod behind. His feet aren't that bad behind, he does have front shoes on. I feel when he starts walking work again his hind feet may improve as he's only been in the field the last 8 months.


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## Copperpot (28 June 2013)

That should say my vet wants my farrier! It wasn't farriers idea!


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## Christmas Crumpet (28 June 2013)

Copperpot said:



			I have been informed by my farrier today that he wants graduated heart bars on my horses back feet with some kind of rubber filling in them. £220 a set! Horse has been unshod behind for 8 months now. He is having his hocks injected again next week. Farrier is happy not to do this but having seen the x rays he said it may help get his pedal bone back where it should be. I was hoping he could unshod behind. His feet aren't that bad behind, he does have front shoes on. I feel when he starts walking work again his hind feet may improve as he's only been in the field the last 8 months.
		
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Those are what my horse had (think they are called Jim Blurton or something - well he made them!!). I hated seeing her in them and she hated being in them. They are hugely expensive and the gel stuff is too. Don't do it!!! My vet had a load of science talk for me as to why it would work but then I rang a farrier friend who contradicted everything vet said!!


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## Copperpot (28 June 2013)

I don't know what to do for the best  he needs to live out 24/7 for his djd of the hocks. We have a lot of grass. He's fed a handful if happy hoof just to put his Cortaflex in. He's never footy behind and is happy to walk over the stones the times I do bring over for a groom. Despite being unshod behind for 8 months his frogs are still small and fairly flat. Will road walking in hand help to stimulate them? In an ideal world I feel he would need no shoes as he has a few issues and his feet could grow odd to balance him out all over. I am setting up a fatty trail this weekend so he has to walk round the outside of the field to get him moving more.


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## catherine22 (28 June 2013)

carolineb said:



			Those are what my horse had (think they are called Jim Blurton or something - well he made them!!). I hated seeing her in them and she hated being in them. They are hugely expensive and the gel stuff is too. Don't do it!!! My vet had a load of science talk for me as to why it would work but then I rang a farrier friend who contradicted everything vet said!!
		
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My horse has the jim blurton graduated bar shoes in front (no gel stuff now tho as it was too slippy) and he's really happy in them (and normal shoes + wedges behind) this was the vets idea but the farrier agrees it works for him as he has such an upright confirmation. When his shoes (and wedges) come off, even on soft ground, to be shod he's noticably uncomfortable. We're just coming up to 2 years in them, my other horses are barefoot (and one is an in work TB who has always been shod) so I have seen it works but as at the moment the shoes are working I'm not going to change it, however eventually I may have to. He has coffin joint djd and hock spavins, both bilaterally.


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## Copperpot (28 June 2013)

Mine is like that in front when being shod, noticeably uncomfortable standing on hard ground with no shoes. Behind he is fine. But the vet thinks these shoes will help his hock arthritis and the fact that his pedal bones aren't at the best angle.  He did say he may not need them forever and if he does get them and its a big if, I hope not at that price :0


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## catherine22 (28 June 2013)

Mine's pedal bones are flat at best (I think in front they are still reversly rotated) last xrayed in October 12.
A set currently of the graduated bar shoes in front and normal shoes and wedges behind are £120 every 4 weeks, we were on the graduated bars in front with equipak (the gel filling) and graduated bars behind which was £220 every 4 weeks :-0


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## jaimep (29 June 2013)

Always ask the expert in front of you; vet, farrier, barefoot trimmer, EP whoever a few simple questions e.g.:-

What do they think the problem is?

Why do they think that?

What do they recommend to fix it?

How will their recommendation address the problem?

Sit back and listen to the answers and apply common sense.

Simples...



Do not be fobbed off with vague answers like "the foot needs more support" (what does that mean? the ground supports the horse, how does support fix navicular for example)


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## Copperpot (29 June 2013)

That's it equipak! £220.89 my farrier said. Didn't know it would be every 4 weeks thou :0


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## Pale Rider (29 June 2013)

My word Copperpot, that's alot of money for something that won't cure the problem just hide symptoms until it's so bad shooting is the only answer. Mind you being cynical, vets and farriers are like the US health system. Managed illness, no profit in healthy horses.


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## Copperpot (29 June 2013)

I wouldn't mind the money if I thought it would help him. But it's not what I want for him. Although his hinds aren't great examples of feet, I feel they look better than when he was shod. My farrier has been honest and said it will end up making his heels contract more in the long run. Although it may help his other issues. I think I am going to leave him without shoes behind. And work on improving the foot he has by walking him out in hand and under saddle after his hocks have been injected/ Tildren.  I am thinking of saving up and packing him off to Rockley Farm to have a bash and getting his fronts off too. He has some major event lines on front feet. I posted pics a while ago. They were off end of last year but when the ground went hard he was very footy, so I relented and put them back on.


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## Meowy Catkin (29 June 2013)

catherine22 said:



			When his shoes (and wedges) come off, even on soft ground, to be shod he's noticably uncomfortable. .
		
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Copperpot said:



			Mine is like that in front when being shod, noticeably uncomfortable standing on hard ground with no shoes.
		
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Sorry I'm asking questions again. 

Surely if the horse is uncomfortable even just having the shoes off during the shoeing process, that indicates that the hooves are in a bad way? 

Many people on here who've gone through terrible times with their horse's hooves have commented that the horses who 'need' shoes the most, are the very ones that need to be out of them the most.


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## Pale Rider (29 June 2013)

That's true Faracat, if a horse is lame unshod, shoeing won't make him sound. He's still lame, you just can't see it.


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## Copperpot (29 June 2013)

Mine is fine with no shoes on soft ground. Just in front on hard/stony ground. At the moment I am not in a position and neither is he to have fronts off. I would need to change the set up completely where he lives. I have started to do this, but it will take time and money unfortunately.


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## Meowy Catkin (29 June 2013)

I wasn't having a go at you CP - you are obviously trying to work out the best way forward for your horse and sadly money, facilities etc... do restrict the options available to us.

I know that I was very lucky as when the shoes came off my mare's very unhealthy hooves she was sound on grass, tarmac, concrete and small stones straight away.


ETA - Going back to the horse I originally started this thread about. He is still uncomfortable walking downhill. I know that he's only had the bar shoes on for a short while, but he is on bute too.


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## Copperpot (29 June 2013)

Oh no Faracat, i didn't think you were  sorry didn't mean to give the impression I thought you were.

Sorry I have rather hijacked this thread with my worries!!


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## Wagtail (29 June 2013)

Copperpot said:



			That's it equipak! £220.89 my farrier said. Didn't know it would be every 4 weeks thou :0
		
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My farrier only charges £70 for two feet shod with equipak.


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## Copperpot (29 June 2013)

Yes the Equi pack is £80, then the cost of the heart bar shoes for hind feet plus cost of normal shoes for the front feet.


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## WellyBaggins (29 June 2013)

I only paid £30 plus vat for the equipak, £138 for bars and equipak in front, normal behind, with vat


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## Copperpot (29 June 2013)

It's not really the cost of it that worries me, more the implications on his long term health/soundness in these shoes.


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## amandap (29 June 2013)

fairyclare said:



			When I first read your comment I thought WTF, then I read this and re read my post - I did not explain myself very well.
She currently has plain pads on with a raised from area, no wedges.
		
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Yes,sorry, I was much less clear than you. lol
I still had wedges in my head following my rant. 

The more the back of the hoof is lifted for 'protection' the more the pedal bone angle is impacted. This doesn't seem to come into the equation from where I'm sitting.


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## Brightbay (29 June 2013)

Copperpot said:



			It's not really the cost of it that worries me, more the implications on his long term health/soundness in these shoes.
		
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First of all, sorry Faracat, but your own fault for starting a really interesting discussion  I hope you got something useful from it to pass to your friend!

Copperpot, my experience (and it's just that, not a study examining many horses) is that the negative pedal bone angled hinds came about _because_ of tender/sore fronts.  The horse stood consistently very slightly under behind, to take as much weight off the fronts as possible. So slightly after the fronts were sore, the hinds started to go downhill too.

Once the fronts improved, the way the horse stood changed, and a tiny trim of the toes on the hinds across two trim cycles, and they changed completely in a positive way.

So there's maybe a chance that there's something similar going on with your horse?  Sort the fronts out, the hinds will sort themselves


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## TwoStroke (29 June 2013)

To add to the discussion of negatively angled pedal bones... A horse of mine had these purely due to poorly developed caudal hooves. Weak frog, puny lateral cartilages and digital cushion, under run heels. Once these improved, the pedal bone sat at a much better angle.


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## Copperpot (29 June 2013)

Two stroke how did you improve these? With shoes or another way? 

Brightbay that sounds interesting. I will have to speak to my farrier and see how we can improve fronts. The vet seems to think he's been loading the front end as his hocks were sore. He has large side bone in front left foot too. 

All in all, four new legs and feet would be a better option


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## TwoStroke (29 June 2013)

Barefoot for me as well. I found it was a case of getting the diet sorted (easier said than done!) then miles and miles and miles of hacking barefoot. The fronts improved much faster than the hinds. Only once the fronts were half decent did the hinds start to follow.

This horse's feet are prone to falling apart (due to gut problems & sugar sensitivity). His feet only really stay on the straight and narrow when he's in work. Not all horses are as hard to manage as he is, though, so don't let that put you off .


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## Copperpot (29 June 2013)

Ha ha. I do feel that mine won't be easy either. The hinds I think will be ok, the fronts will be the issue. I'm putting him on a foot supplement starting today. 

The diet will be tough for me too. He needs to live out but we have so much grass  I have plan to tackle that thou. 

I will have to measure his fronts for boots til they toughen up. Perhaps when he is in work I will start to see improvements 

Hock injections are next week so can start hacking him a few days after.


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## FfionWinnie (29 June 2013)

CP sorry if I've misunderstood but if you are intending to go down the BF route and are worried about living out, I have three in work living out. One is a poor doer and does not need restricted grazing, she is doing endurance rides and hacking on stoney ground bare foot.  The other two are fatties so they are restricted for that reason, but they all live out 24/7


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## Copperpot (29 June 2013)

That's good to know  I am making a fatty track round the field for him  hopefully that will keep his weight down. Plus I have bought a muzzle just in case.


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## ester (30 June 2013)

CP mine is a good doer too and was in limited work (due to transitioning/lameness) last summer, a track round our 3 acre field really worked for him .

For the purposes of this thread diagnosis = 'flat' pedal bones (heels underun), possibly coffin joint DJD (no changes seen on xray) and having viewed his landing (badly lateral) suspect poss collateral ligament strain.

Initial treatment eggbars/shoeing with better heel support/breakover and steroid injections into the joint. Although feet looked better after 2 shoeing cycles soundness not really improved when worked. So shoes taken off and trimmer on board with blessing of both vet and farrier. 

Sound pretty much ever since although didn't trot for a good while to start . Still sound and back competing.


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## TwoStroke (30 June 2013)

Good luck, copperpot! Sounds like you have a good plan .


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## Copperpot (30 June 2013)

Thanks  pea gravel will be going down on the track this week. Took me hours to build it today  already have wood chip down, so that will be a few surfaces to help things along


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## TwoStroke (30 June 2013)

Wow, a proper track, then - Sounds fab! I'm very jealous .


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## FfionWinnie (1 July 2013)

Copperpot said:



			Thanks  pea gravel will be going down on the track this week. Took me hours to build it today  already have wood chip down, so that will be a few surfaces to help things along 

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Think you will be fine!!  Well done for making so much effort!


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## Heelfirst (1 July 2013)

I really do find it amazing that anyone in either the veterinary or farrier profession are still recommending egg bars or graduated shoes.
Egg bars will give a small amount of caudal support but encourage a central  prolapse  thus putting the sole under more pressure, they will however often show an improvement when first fitted, but long term they are in my opinion a disaster!
Hart bars on the other hand when fitted well can sometimes be a benefit.
Any wedging of the heel is encouraging it to hit the ground first ( you in fact are lowering the heel to the ground not raising it)
I will admit that esthetical the foot can look better but if you look at the underside of any wedged heeled shoe when it is removed you will notice the heels are showing more wear due to the extra compression.
Once again the feet may look better , but long term they create more problems than they treat.
When a referral vet would ask me to fit them I always declined but did offer to fit longer shoes at the heel which gave  support without causing strain on the structural tissue.
All the above are a quick fit treatment, for something that has often taken quite a time to wreck!!
Therefore I now would always encourage a barefoot approach even if the owner wishes to go back to having a shod horse.


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## Meowy Catkin (1 July 2013)

HF - Thanks for explaining that.


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## Copperpot (1 July 2013)

In that case HF I am glad I decided against them! My farrier did say they would cause more problems than they would fix.


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## Heelfirst (1 July 2013)

Hang on to that farrier!!


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## star (1 July 2013)

So, how come you normally want a horse to land heel first but not if it's wearing wedges?

My vet recommended wedges for mine which I went with against mine and my farrier's better judgement and they lasted all of 6weeks before I was begging to get them off him.  Now back in normal shoes until they think of what they want to try next.  He's not lame and nothing on his MRI so I dont want to take him barefoot right now although may do over the winter once the event season is over.  Just need to try and get his HPA better.  He's off to see Liphook's remedial farrier in 2wks time - dont like to think what expensive things they will suggest next.


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## Heelfirst (1 July 2013)

This might explain it better
http://www.rockfoot.com/footfall.html


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## star (1 July 2013)

ok - that was an interesting website - thanks.  So the shod hoof should land flat - is that in all gaits?


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## Heelfirst (2 July 2013)

Either toe or heel first in the shod horse seems to lead to unwanted concussion


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## fairyclare (5 July 2013)

fairyclare said:



			I am having the same battle with my vet at the moment, he has given my girl the all clear to be ridden again but wants the shoes and pads to stay on, I want them off.
She has brilliant feet, X rays show that the hoof wall is aligned well with the inside structure.
his arguement is that she needs the extra padding of the pad on the frog to encourage the frog to act as a cushion - my arguement is, without the shoe and pad the frog would be doing exactly that, as nature intended........

I have til the 2nd July to decide if I go with the vets way of thinking or I follow my gut feeling.....
		
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Update - the shoes came off! Farrier agreed with me re the pads and was supportive of going down the BF route. He did not trim too much so she has some horn there to stop her getting too footie. Because the pads had made the frogs all squishy and horrid he did have to par away more than I wanted but he has left as much as he could.

Happy horse, happy me


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## Meowy Catkin (5 July 2013)

Great news! Let us know how it goes.


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