# From hairy cob to sport horse and a colored showing question.



## cob&onion (14 June 2011)

Looking to pull my cobs mane and take her feather off next spring so she can be plaited (planning to get her out and about to a few shows - she will be 4)
Just been looking at a few cobs who have had the above treatment and look very smart, more like sport horses.
Has anyone got any before and afters of there hairy cob trimmed, featherless and plaited i could see please 
Also what is the rule with colored horses and colored browbands? i know it is correct for a colored to wear a colored browband but what is the rule around a plaited LW colored cob with no feather?
Thanks


----------



## colour me in (14 June 2011)

it would depend what class you were doing with regards to the browband, if you were doing ridden coloured colored browband would be acceptable however if you were doing show hunter or hack classes a plain browband would be necessary


----------



## SmallHunter (14 June 2011)

Do you have a picture? If your horse is definitely a cob then it would not be correct to pull the mane and plait it. You would either turnout as a traditional (full mane, tail and feathers) or hog and clip everything off like a show cob.


----------



## cob&onion (14 June 2011)

SmallHunter said:



			Do you have a picture? If your horse is definitely a cob then it would not be correct to pull the mane and plait it. You would either turnout as a traditional (full mane, tail and feathers) or hog and clip everything off like a show cob.
		
Click to expand...

Her feathers arnt really hairy enough and although her mane is long it is not overly thick like some cobs are.

Shes standing slightly down on a hill here - shes not quite so bum high 
Also she is carrying a bigger than normal grass belly


----------



## maisieblu (14 June 2011)

A coloured would only wear a coloured browband if it was a "type" to do so ie as a riding horse or show pony and from your description i doubt he is either. A cob should be turned out with all plain tack and hogged and trimmed whether coloured or not, you may be able to be classed as a coloured native "type" which has very little feather and "tidy" mane. Impossible really to say without a picture to help, try going on the BSPA site and looking at the detils of their literature which helps classify before you do anything drastic!!


----------



## Vizslak (14 June 2011)

you should hog her not plait really


----------



## maisieblu (14 June 2011)

LOL you put up a pic as I was typing! What is her height? she looks to not have enough bone for a cob but would possibly be fine for unaffiliated needs to carry more muscle less weight and more neck if she is young that should come in time perhaps trim feathers tail and thin mane as a less drastic measure for hunter type classes but either way no coloured browbands


----------



## cob&onion (14 June 2011)

maisieblu said:



			LOL you put up a pic as I was typing! What is her height? she looks to not have enough bone for a cob but would possibly be fine for unaffiliated needs to carry more muscle less weight and more neck if she is young that should come in time perhaps trim feathers tail and thin mane as a less drastic measure for hunter type classes but either way no coloured browbands
		
Click to expand...

She is 3 and going through the backing process.  She is standing at 14.3hh hoping she will make around 15.1hh.  She isnt a chunky cob, so thats why i though she would get away with being trimmed, plaited and de-feathered.  Am not thinking of taking her county level or nothing, just a few local shows next year and maybe some dressage.  As i mentioned she is carrying quite a bit of weight at the moment and obv hasnt built up muscle in the right places yet as not in work.
Am confused now as what to do!! 
I don't think shes chunky enough for a show cob? (as mentioned above i dont think she has enough bone)


----------



## Todmiester (14 June 2011)

colour me in said:



			it would depend what class you were doing with regards to the browband, if you were doing ridden coloured colored browband would be acceptable however if you were doing show hunter or hack classes a plain browband would be necessary
		
Click to expand...

Im sorry but this info is not correct as such. Native/traditional including hogged cobs have plain workman like bridles with plain browbands. Riding Horse and Hacks wear pretty coloured browbands , but Show Hunters wear plain browbands.

Dont rush into trimming up your mare she falls into the Native catagory, feathered and are chunkier than the plaited boys but not built like tanks like the Traditionals.

It looks wrong taking off the feathers of a cob without going the whole 'hog' and taking off mane and having a short pulled tail.

Hope this helps.


----------



## xmariax (14 June 2011)

As in previous post she is a lw and should be shown hogged shes only young my cob matured at 7 she has lots of time to grow and Mature the muscle will come.
If ur only doin local it doesn't matter if u want to plait then go for it but I wouldn't use a fancy brow band hunter style is best


----------



## cob&onion (14 June 2011)

xmariax said:



			As in previous post she is a lw and should be shown hogged shes only young my cob matured at 7 she has lots of time to grow and Mature the muscle will come.
If ur only doin local it doesn't matter if u want to plait then go for it but I wouldn't use a fancy brow band hunter style is best 

Click to expand...

Yes i thought the coloured browbands where for the finer riding horse types.
She has a lovely hunter black bridle with a wide noseband and browband for next year anyway.
I may see how she is looking next spring  for now the hair is staying to see her through another winter 
Thanks everyone


----------



## Dottyfordylan (14 June 2011)

I have a before and after in CR with pics. He is a 15hh lw cob that was very hairy indeed. His mane was pulled and trimmed and all feathers clipped and I think he looks a lot better for it


----------



## Riverdalelc (14 June 2011)

Here are before and after pictures of my coloured mare:

Native:













Plaited:













As you can see, she has also put on a considerable amount of weight and I am thinking of hogging her next year if she continues to look well.  Please note that her tack has remained the same and still would do as a hogged cob.


----------



## cob&onion (14 June 2011)

Riverdalelc said:



			Here are before and after pictures of my coloured mare:

Native:













Plaited:













As you can see, she has also put on a considerable amount of weight and I am thinking of hogging her next year if she continues to look well.  Please note that her tack has remained the same and still would do as a hogged cob.
		
Click to expand...


Much prefer the plaited look 
Lovely


----------



## Lucy_Nottingham (14 June 2011)

no that is a different bit, which is not very common, that Riverdalec has in! 

Fret not pony's mouth is perfectly happy!  

In response to original post, I think your mare will be better hairy until you know how she will look when "matured"

Hope she goes through breaking well!


----------



## Riverdalelc (14 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			Has it not been mentioned to you that the bit is fitted incorrectly?
the cheekpiece should be fitted into the small round circle at the top of the bit??..not where its fitted now..where the snaffle rein is..the action on that bit will be quite awful for the horse 

Click to expand...

The bit is fitted correctly, it is not your 'average bit' shall we say! The idea is that it has no poll pressure.  Thanks anyway tho!


----------



## cob&onion (14 June 2011)

Lucy_Nottingham said:



			In response to original post, I think your mare will be better hairy until you know how she will look when "matured"

Hope she goes through breaking well!
		
Click to expand...


Yes 

So far shes been a dream to break, just at the trotting off the lunge stage and shes going very well 
Will do an update in a week or so with pics


----------



## Jesstickle (14 June 2011)

I'm interested in your bit too.  I guessed it was something to do with poll pressure (and lack of fixed rein/ring angle) and I can just about make out that it isn't 'fixed' at the corner but what actually is it?


----------



## Riverdalelc (14 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			no need for thanks...can you tell me what bit it is tho?
		
Click to expand...

It is called a Belton Bit


----------



## Erin (14 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			low port pelham
		
Click to expand...

enlighten me, how an you tell what sort of mouthpiece its got from those pictures??


----------



## Lucinda_x (14 June 2011)

When i first got Mr G, hogged and had furry, cobby legs 






Winning hunter class 2 weeks ago (Thanks to eclipse photos!)






1m XC course


----------



## Riverdalelc (14 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			Because i've only seen low port loose ring pelhams...maybe there are high ports too..who knows?
		
Click to expand...

Please note that this is not a loose ring pelham as such, in effect it is a snaffle (straight bar)


----------



## Jesstickle (14 June 2011)

I can't find one on google! Where do I find some info. I like bitting, it's interesting


----------



## Riverdalelc (14 June 2011)

Here is a pic if you interested:







The long shank is free moving and therefore this bit has a simple snaffle action.


----------



## Riverdalelc (14 June 2011)

Sorry, I don't mind answering questions about this bit but don't want to hijack the real reason for this thread! x


----------



## Jesstickle (14 June 2011)

Riverdalelc said:



			Sorry, I don't mind answering questions about this bit but don't want to hijack the real reason for this thread! x
		
Click to expand...

Oo. That is interesting. Never seen one of those before so thank you 

And sorry OP to hijack, I'm just so nosey I can't help myself! You know I love your girl though, if that helps make up for it!


----------



## Riverdalelc (14 June 2011)

jesstickle said:



			You know I love your girl though, if that helps make up for it!
		
Click to expand...

Thanks! Not sure I recognise your name though! Sorry! xx


----------



## Riverdalelc (14 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			it cant be "free-moving" as it has a curb chain?..that cancels it out..

having drawn the pic to the attention of a Lorriner friend of mine, he says it is, as you have it, fitted incorectly.
		
Click to expand...

Well that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.


----------



## Jesstickle (14 June 2011)

Riverdalelc said:



			Thanks! Not sure I recognise your name though! Sorry! xx
		
Click to expand...

O I meant I love C&O's girly. I'm slightly obsessed with her ears. Although yours is also lovely!


----------



## Riverdalelc (14 June 2011)

bakedbean said:



			not my opinion here, but the same as mine, i suppose.

why, can you explain, as i'm sure you took advice when you bought it, has it a curb hook eyelet, when in theory, as you have stated, its just a snaffle? surely the curb hook link is not needed..unless its really a pelham (fitted incorrectly?)
		
Click to expand...


Please feel free to contact Abbey bits for info on this bit, I simply tried at Lynn Russell's whilst on a clinic and found it suited my mare.


----------



## cob&onion (14 June 2011)

jesstickle said:



			O I meant I love C&O's girly. I'm slightly obsessed with her ears. Although yours is also lovely!
		
Click to expand...

Thank you, yes her "fly protection ears" lol


----------



## Renzo (14 June 2011)

Bakedbean, you obviously seem to think you have a knowledge of this type of bit, therefore you should know that a curb chain is fitted so to only come into action when the bit is at a 45degree angle, therefore the way this particular bit is fitted it is not using the same pressure points so unless used in a vicious manner it is using the same action as a snaffle. 

I have seen these bits in the county show ring before by pro's and it is fitted correctly. 

Think you need to stick your nose into some more books!


----------



## ozpoz (14 June 2011)

I'd be very surprised to see a pro fit a loose ring pelham with the cheekpieces attached to the bit rings ..........
 If you are worried about the curb action then a leather curb, or shorter shanks could be a solution.


----------



## puddledub (14 June 2011)

ozpoz said:



			I'd be very surprised to see a pro fit a loose ring pelham with the cheekpieces attached to the bit rings ..........
 If you are worried about the curb action then a leather curb, or shorter shanks could be a solution.
		
Click to expand...

I think it has already been pointed out that it is NOT a loose ring pelham.

As riverdalelc has pointed out, this bit is intended to be fitted this way, hence giving curb action but not poll pressure (which some horses hate).  It will give a very similar action to a swales I imagine, but with less risk of the corners of the mouth being pinched.

..... and if any of you are game to advice Lynn Russell on how this bit should be fitted then goodluck to you


----------



## ozpoz (15 June 2011)

unconvinced


----------



## Natch (15 June 2011)

well the bit confuses me too. I really can't see how it has a simple snaffle effect?


----------



## Vizslak (15 June 2011)

Right thoroughly confused! Is this the bit developed by Paul Belton and Klaus Balkenhol years ago, as a intermediate from snaffle to double? Have to say cannot find ANY info on that ^ and I dont think I dreamed it (but it obviously never took off or disappeared into the abyss for some reason or other) But from memory wasnt that meant to be worn with a double headpiece? Apologies if I'm way off track but I'm out of ideas as to what else a 'Belton bit' is?


----------



## Sportznight (15 June 2011)

Vizslak said:



			Right thoroughly confused! Is this the bit developed by Paul Belton and Klaus Balkenhol years ago, as a intermediate from snaffle to double? Have to say cannot find ANY info on that ^ and I dont think I dreamed it (but it obviously never took off or disappeared into the abyss for some reason or other) But from memory wasnt that meant to be worn with a double headpiece? Apologies if I'm way off track but I'm out of ideas as to what else a 'Belton bit' is?
		
Click to expand...

That was my thought too, not that I know anything about it, it just looks to my eye incorrectly dressed, as no slip head. 

ETA absolutely CRACKING horse though!!  No wonder you are so often in the money, so to speak


----------



## Baggybreeches (15 June 2011)

puddledub said:



			..... and if any of you are game to advice Lynn Russell on how this bit should be fitted then goodluck to you
		
Click to expand...

This made me laugh! If any of you had as much knowledge as Lynn or anyone else who makes a living from horses I am sure you realise that EVERYBODY, no matter who they are takes on board advice, whether it is what they think they know or are to be proven wrong.
Nobody knows everything about anything and if they think they do they are a fool.


----------



## kerilli (15 June 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			This made me laugh! If any of you had as much knowledge as Lynn or anyone else who makes a living from horses I am sure you realise that EVERYBODY, no matter who they are takes on board advice, whether it is what they think they know or are to be proven wrong.
Nobody knows everything about anything and if they think they do they are a fool.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, absolutely... but why has the bit, if it is fitted correctly, got a totally redundant loop at the top (usually for the cheek piece attachment on any other curb bit)?
i've never seen a bit with an unnecessary loop.
i'm totally prepared to accept it if I am wrong but it does look incorrectly fitted to me, based on previous experience.


----------



## Flame_ (15 June 2011)

My guess is some "expert" trainer/producer/YO is peddling this incorrect way of fitting pelhams as the solution to some problem like horse evading the bit.

OP, I like your cob, I'd leave her traditional.


----------



## alphanumeric (15 June 2011)

The bit works as follows:

The top rein and cheekpiece are attached as Riverdalec has them - to the "snaffle" ring, just like any normal snaffle.  As the picture of the bit shows, this is actually a straight bar which fits through the pelham's sides and can rotate independently, thereby remaining completely indepedent from the rest of the mouthpiece and simulating riding in a normal snaffle.  The bottom rein is attached to the lower ring on the pelham and the curb chain is attached to the top "redundant" ring.  Attaching the curb chain at the required "tightness" for the particular horse allows you to dictate when the pelham shank will stop rotating when the bottom rein is pulled.  The key to this design is that, even when you pull on the bottom rein to the point of bringing the curb chain into play, you are still NOT exerting any poll pressure as the shank of the pelham is in NO WAY connected to the main bridlework.  The poll pressure remains exactly the same as riding in a bog standard loose ring snaffle type bit.  

The bit is fitted correctly.


----------



## spaniel (15 June 2011)

I beg to differ.....there should be a sliphead attached to the empty rings.


----------



## alphanumeric (15 June 2011)

There should NOT be a sliphead attached, Spaniel, that is the precise point I'm trying to make!  If you attach a sliphead which then fits in with the rest of the bridlework, you completely negate the action and intended effect of the bit - to minimise poll pressure as much as possible!


----------



## Luci07 (15 June 2011)

Flame_ said:



			My guess is some "expert" trainer/producer/YO is peddling this incorrect way of fitting pelhams as the solution to some problem like horse evading the bit.

OP, I like your cob, I'd leave her traditional. 

Click to expand...


I am not entering the is it right or not as I don't know! but just thought that if the bit was fitted incorrectly - how come this combination are doing so well competitively? surely it would have been picked up by now if it was wrong? particularly with showing when everything is so finely scrutinised..


----------



## Jesstickle (15 June 2011)

alphanumeric said:



			The bit works as follows:

The top rein and cheekpiece are attached as Riverdalec has them - to the "snaffle" ring, just like any normal snaffle.  As the picture of the bit shows, this is actually a straight bar which fits through the pelham's sides and can rotate independently, thereby remaining completely indepedent from the rest of the mouthpiece and simulating riding in a normal snaffle.  The bottom rein is attached to the lower ring on the pelham and the curb chain is attached to the top "redundant" ring.  Attaching the curb chain at the required "tightness" for the particular horse allows you to dictate when the pelham shank will stop rotating when the bottom rein is pulled.  The key to this design is that, even when you pull on the bottom rein to the point of bringing the curb chain into play, you are still NOT exerting any poll pressure as the shank of the pelham is in NO WAY connected to the main bridlework.  The poll pressure remains exactly the same as riding in a bog standard loose ring snaffle type bit.  

The bit is fitted correctly.
		
Click to expand...

I have to say, looking at the construction of that bit, that is exactly the conclusion I have come to as well.

To fit a slip head would negate the lack of poll pressure. 

I don't think people are looking carefully enough at how the bit is put together.


----------



## Baggybreeches (15 June 2011)

Okay, adding a more philosophical view point. Who decides what is right or wrong? Ultimately it should be the horse.........


----------



## kerilli (15 June 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			Okay, adding a more philosophical view point. Who decides what is right or wrong? Ultimately it should be the horse.........
		
Click to expand...

Yes... but some will put up with a lot (not saying this one is, looks very happy). I've seen a pelham put in upside down, and the horse was going okay in it. ditto hanging cheek snaffle. does that make it okay to fit one like that?

alphanumeric - are the curb chain hooks hanging off the topmost link then? i can't really tell from the photographs, i thought the curb chain started from lower.
ah, found a pic of it elsewhere, they do. okay, top ring not redundant after all then, so i'll shut up.


----------



## Flame_ (15 June 2011)

Yes, unless its dangerous. With that bit fitted with the cheekpieces attached to the snaffle rings, there is nothing at all stopping the curb chain from infinite tightness when the bottom rein is pulled, is there?


----------



## kerilli (15 June 2011)

Flame_ said:



			Yes, unless its dangerous. With that bit fitted with the cheekpieces attached to the snaffle rings, there is nothing at all stopping the curb chain from infinite tightness when the bottom rein is pulled, is there?
		
Click to expand...

No, I agree, I don't think there is... no stability at all of top ring.


----------



## Serenity087 (15 June 2011)

As an aside... showing folk get away with all sorts if they're famous enough...

IMO bits don't come with redundant rings on them for no apparent reason. Normally a sliphead would attatch to the snaffle because the checkstrap would be sitting on the top ring.

That it's a double bridle with no sliphead is wrong in itself, but because of the redundant ring on the top, there isn't anywhere to put it!

The bit is supposed to give the look of a double bridle.  IE a bridle with two bits.  A bridle with one bit is correct as long as it looks like two.

Just as a thought though, owning a cob who hates the poll action of a pelham myself... why don't you just slacken the curb rein a little?  Mine is always slightly slacker than the snaffle rein because, like I said, Dorey hates poll action and will bolt with me if she senses it in play.
Means she can show in the correct way (with sliphead etc) and the pelham is fitted right.


----------



## Theresa_F (15 June 2011)

Her conformation and type is a native.  She does not have the feather, bone or width for a traditional, not a hunter type and not a show cob, she is too native/pony like to be compared to them and I would also image not big enough.  I would image she is welsh x gypsy cob.

To get her correct for her type, keep the legs natural, tidy and shorten the mane as they do on Welsh Ds, leave the tail natural.  Trim the outside of her ears and her jawline.

Tack - plain with a hunter noseband.  You can use a pelham or a double.

You need to show in a tweed jacket.

Although my lad is a traditional, you need the same sort of outfit and tack as I use.

Stinky as a 5 year old in a pelham.







This is April, he is in his double - saddle cloth is far too forward, I had quickly put the saddle on and jumped onboard for this photo.







Turned out correctly as a native, if she moves well, she could be successful as from the photos, she has potential.


----------



## Mince Pie (15 June 2011)

Riverdalelc could you tell me where I could find this bit please? I have googled Belson bit and had no results.


----------



## lexiedhb (15 June 2011)

Serenity087 said:



			IMO bits don't come with redundant rings on them for no apparent reason. 

.
		
Click to expand...

This is what I thought.


----------



## M_G (15 June 2011)

kerilli said:



			No, I agree, I don't think there is... no stability at all of top ring.
		
Click to expand...

So, it's not "just a snaffle" as was said further up the thread?


----------



## Vizslak (15 June 2011)

broke_but_happy said:



			Riverdalelc could you tell me where I could find this bit please? I have googled Belson bit and had no results.
		
Click to expand...

http://www.doebert.com/product_list_albion.php?active_nav=105&lid=2&wpid=105#262

Which confirms it was the bit I was thinking of. And I still think it should be worn in a double bridle. The whole point of this bit being developed was to create a bit that was somewhere in between a snaffle and a double. Ie a double but without putting two bits in the mouth.


----------



## Serenity087 (15 June 2011)

If it was just a snaffle, MG, it would be a snaffle.

A normal pelham works as a lever, you pull the curb, the bit is the pivot point, so you exert pressure on the poll.

This bit has no pivot point as the snaffle rings are being used for the cheekpieces (a normal showing bridle would put the sliphead on here).

The reason the bit isn't stable is that without something holding those top rings you can pull the curb chain as tight as you like and effectively nutcracker the horses chin.  I certainly wouldn't ride in such an unstable bit for the sake of removing poll pressure when a slacker curb chain will suffice.

It's also incorrect to show without a sliphead, which in this case is impossible to fit as putting it on the top rings would bring the lever action back into play.

It's a very bizarre bit if I'm honest.  And far more severe than any snaffle OR pelham I've ever seen!


----------



## Baggybreeches (15 June 2011)

Vizslak said:



			Which confirms it was the bit I was thinking of. And I still think it should be worn in a double bridle. The whole point of this bit being developed was to create a bit that was somewhere in between a snaffle and a double. Ie a double but without putting two bits in the mouth.
		
Click to expand...

This makes more sense now, I can understand the action, I was going to say in reply to the OP that it looked like her curb rein was way too tight/short, but this would explain the angle.
OP if that is the effect you want, why not just use a loose ring straight bar snaffle with a curb strap?


----------



## M_G (15 June 2011)

Thank you Serenity.
So, the consensus is, it's fitted incorrectly?


----------



## Patches (15 June 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			This makes more sense now, I can understand the action, I was going to say in reply to the OP that it looked like her curb rein was way too tight/short, but this would explain the angle.
OP if that is the effect you want, why not just use a loose ring straight bar snaffle with a curb strap? 

Click to expand...

I'm guessing because a loose ring, straight bar snaffle isn't permitted in the showing classes that the poster uses the Belton bit for? I've read the replies and seem to have come to an uneducated assumption that the bit is for horse that don't actually like the action of a pelham but need one to conform to the entry requirements of the showing class they have entered? 

I do agree the bit looks "wrong"  on a first glance at the photos  but perhaps it's action/usage is more apparent when viewed in the flesh. 

I know nothing about bitting and am probably talking complete tosh, but surely a loose headslip (if that ring can even take a headslip) wouldn't exert much poll pressure anyway, as the cheekpiece isn't attached up there, and would only come in to any effect if the curb rein was really yanked on?

I would bet this bit is only used on this horse when they're showing and the poster rides in a snaffle at home.


----------



## Vizslak (15 June 2011)

Thats my opinion yes MG, if it is fitted correctly I can certainly see why it never took off as a popular bit. Actually worn with a weymouth bridle I think that its quite a clever bit.


----------



## Flame_ (15 June 2011)

Vizslak said:



			Thats my opinion yes MG, if it is fitted correctly I can certainly see why it never took off as a popular bit. Actually worn with a weymouth bridle I think that its quite a clever bit.
		
Click to expand...

Isn't that what rugby pelhams are really for?

ETA - No, its all right, I've got my head round it now. They can be used with slip head to look like a double, this belton actually works a bit like a double? That would make sense and means it is definitely incorrectly fitted.


----------



## Cop-Pop (15 June 2011)

I've found this:

http://www.cwsaddlery.net/belton.htm

but none the wiser as to how it's fitted.  Either way both horses look gorgeous


----------



## Serenity087 (15 June 2011)

Well, put it this way, whether it's fitted correctly for the horse is redudant - it is NOT correctly fitting for the show ring as there is no sliphead and, unless as Patches says a very loose one is fitted to the top ring, it is impossible to fit a sliphead without reintroducing poll action.

Which, if I'm honest, I'd put one on just to prevent the curb chain from nutcrackering.

Patches - Because Dorey hates her pelham I only use it for shows and dress-rehursals.  The rest of the time she's in a loose ring french link snaffle - just about the only thing lighter than that is a straight bar, I think!

Thing is, because I only use it for showing, Dorey has now been conditioned that the pelham means party time, so as long as I keep that curb rein slack she will ignore her hatred of it to show off (never have I ever met a horse who loves showing off so much!).
I absolutely cannot hack her in it as she bolts to make her displeasure clear, even if I were to drop the curb rein entirely!!

I'll probably get slammed for this, but IMO if you can't ride a horse correctly in a pelham then it is no good as a show horse.  The point is that everyone shows off their animals in the same tack to give an even playing field.  To remove the poll action of the pelham says the animal is poorly schooled and I wouldn't place it higher than animals working properly in pelhams or double bridles with poll action.

Truth is, whether it suits the horse or not, that bit is just no good for showing cobs in!


----------



## Vizslak (15 June 2011)

Flame_ said:



			Isn't that what rugby pelhams are really for?
		
Click to expand...

Yes but they arent dressage legal (neither is this but I think that was what was being aimed at). They also produce pressure on the bars of the mouth when the curb is used, this bit wouldnt as the curb moves independantly of the mouth of the bit.


----------



## Serenity087 (15 June 2011)

Also, I can't seem to find a single photo of a horse near Lynn Russell with the cheekpieces not attatched to the top ring.

Can anyone find a photo of her riding in one of these Belton's?  Am I missing it? Which horse does she ride in one?


----------



## M_G (15 June 2011)

I'm struggling to find ANYONE (except riverdalelc) riding with it like this TBH?


----------



## Fii (15 June 2011)

can any body tell me if this bit was made and designed to be worn like this, or, if it has been adapted by some, to be worn this way. That might clear up some debaiting issues.


----------



## Jesstickle (15 June 2011)

Honestly, who cares. The horse looks happy and in good nick and clearly cared for.

Why turn it into a witch hunt?


----------



## Vizslak (15 June 2011)

I dont think its a witch hunt, I'm generally really interested in this bit and why there is so little information on it.


----------



## Fii (15 June 2011)

jesstickle said:



			Honestly, who cares. The horse looks happy and in good nick and clearly cared for.

Why turn it into a witch hunt?
		
Click to expand...

Who's turning it into a witch hunt? certainly not me!
 I would purely like to find out more about it, it is interesting.
 I thought you never stopped learning about horses, how can we learn without asking questions? I you never just take one answer as gospel.


----------



## Jesstickle (15 June 2011)

So was I v, which is why I asked. I'm probably being over sensitive but it just seems like some people are determined to prove her wrong in that way that sometimes happens on HHO.

I must be hormonal or something!


----------



## Vizslak (15 June 2011)

I think I may have to email Paul Belton for a definitive explanation as to the bit, its intended use, its design and how it is properly fitted!


----------



## jnb (15 June 2011)

*sigh*


----------



## Flame_ (15 June 2011)

That is because, unless I'm missing something, the rider we're talking about thinks she is using a specially developed bit which in spite of its appearance is no harsher than a snaffle, when actually used the way she is using it, it has a harsher action when the curb rein is pulled than any other curb bit I can think of. That is pretty ignorant really. If you need to start using specialist bits you ought first to learn how they work and how to put them on correctly. That is standard horsemanship in my book and it is the sort of thing that gets picked up on on this forum and has been since I joined like four years ago. I don't think this is a witch hunt.


----------



## GingerCat (15 June 2011)

Just got to the end of this thread and can't remember the OP's original question


----------



## brighteyes (15 June 2011)

I like *kerilli's* answer.  Bit of a contrivance but if it works and is 'kind' by it's lack of ability to crush and press due to how it's fitted, then... Thing is, if it doesn't come with instructions and gets lent to someone who fits it to the cheeks, like a pelham, then what?

And the horse should be slimmed back down and ridden as a sports 'cob' and left with a mane.  Was that the original Q?


----------



## DiablosGold (15 June 2011)

The hairiest pic I can find...






Clipped out (although not exactly a sport horse)...






Sorry about the size of pics I've resized them 3 times on photobucket but still appear massive on here :S


----------



## Honey08 (15 June 2011)

OP, I can't post a photo as I'ma computer numpty, but we have a little coloured cob of a similar stamp to yours.  We pull his mane, trim his feather, and plait his mane and tail for shows.  He does all classes at pc, and has won just about every WHP he has ever been in, and placed well in ridden hunter pony.  He also does SJ,XC and dressage, as well as mounted games and handy pony (he is a total all rounder star!)  He looks like a little sport horse,and really suits being trimmed up.  I'm so not a fan of hogging personally - think he would look really plain.  I think your horse is a bit lightweight for cob classes as well.

It really depends if you're just going to do showing, or other things too..


----------



## kerilli (15 June 2011)

Flame_ said:



			That is because, unless I'm missing something, the rider we're talking about thinks she is using a specially developed bit which in spite of its appearance is no harsher than a snaffle, when actually used the way she is using it, it has a harsher action when the curb rein is pulled than any other curb bit I can think of. That is pretty ignorant really. If you need to start using specialist bits you ought first to learn how they work and how to put them on correctly. That is standard horsemanship in my book and it is the sort of thing that gets picked up on on this forum and has been since I joined like four years ago. I don't think this is a witch hunt.
		
Click to expand...

must say i agree totally with this. 
it does not work 'just like a snaffle' UNLESS you do not have a curb chain on it. as she does, it has leverage when the curb rein is used... very strong leverage actually (because of the lack of a sliphead.)
it's not a witch-hunt, it's an attempt to find out whether it is fitted correctly. it's an interesting bit, anyway.


----------



## Jacks_mom (15 June 2011)

Can i just comment and say that if riverdale wanted/needed advice on her bitting she would ASK for it. If you are interested do it on your own time, not hi-jacking another thread. Thank you.


----------



## Sportznight (15 June 2011)

Who was it who said LR uses it?  I'm told she says she doesn't...


----------



## alphanumeric (15 June 2011)

What Riverdalec said is that she was introduced to the bit at a LR clinic - presumably LR herself.  Whether LR uses the bit on any of her current horses or not is irrelevant!

To the person who said that you need a sliphead for showing - that is completely and utterly incorrect.  There are plenty of people at the top level of showing who use pelhams without a sliphead.  The only pelham that requires a sliphead is a rugby pelham and it was designed specifically to look like a double bridle.

As regards the bit itself - my understanding of why Riverdalec uses the bit is that her horse does not like poll pressure and this bit eliminates the poll pressure that one normally associates with moving from a snaffle to a pelham or double.  Fitted as it is on her horse, whatever the curb chain does do (and how harsh people think it is) is irrelevant in this case.  No matter how tight that curb chain is/goes, it will NEVER contribute to exerting poll pressure which is what she is trying to avoid!  Perhaps it is also worth mentioning that, at a showing camp that Riverdalec attended recently, not one of the instructors (ALL top level show producers/riders/judges) suggested it was fitted incorrectly.


----------



## Fii (15 June 2011)

DiablosGold said:



			The hairiest pic I can find...






Clipped out (although not exactly a sport horse)...






Sorry about the size of pics I've resized them 3 times on photobucket but still appear massive on here :S
		
Click to expand...

Looks a lovely pony. 
 I can't comment on showing as i don't have the knowledge, but good luck whatever you decide to do.
 And sorry we hyjacked your thread!


----------



## spaniel (15 June 2011)

"What Riverdalec said is that she was introduced to the bit at a LR clinic - presumably LR herself. Whether LR uses the bit on any of her current horses or not is irrelevant"

In fact LR has never heard of, come across, used or has any idea whether a sliphead should be used on this bit or not!


----------



## alphanumeric (15 June 2011)

Ok, I give up!  I was simply trying to clarify the situation and do my best to explain what I interpreted as misunderstandings on the parts of other posters.  If I have been misinformed or misread Riverdalec's post then I do apologise.    

This thread is, however, a timely reminder about why I don't bother posting on here very often!


----------



## Vizslak (15 June 2011)

What because people are curious about something, related to horses that they would like to find out more about??? Isn't that the point of posting on the forum?


----------



## spaniel (15 June 2011)

I checked with LR earlier today purely so we could ALL educate ourselves given what the OP had said. 

I really dont see that there is anything wrong in that!

Anyhow.  I think its still as clear as mud.  However if it works for OP then thats great.


----------



## Fii (15 June 2011)

alphanumeric said:



			This thread is, however, a timely reminder about why I don't bother posting on here very often!
		
Click to expand...

Thats just daft!
 Nobody has been rude or nasty, it's a matter of interest, it's a conversation, and going the way most conversations go.


----------



## Sky1 (15 June 2011)

spaniel said:



			I checked with LR earlier today purely so we could ALL educate ourselves given what the OP had said. 

I really dont see that there is anything wrong in that!

Anyhow.  I think its still as clear as mud.  However if it works for OP then thats great.
		
Click to expand...

I could be wrong but I dont remeber RC saying LR introduced her to it just that it was introduced to her at a clinic, completely different, why would she lie when so many people are friends of LR and can easily ask her??


----------



## alphanumeric (15 June 2011)

What is driving me round the twist is that people have decided to go down the path of discussing this bit (fair enough) but in a manner that appears to be very much "we think she's wrong and we're going to pick holes in it until we're proved right" rather than genuine questioning.  This is being done about something that is totally irrelevant to the original thread and to a poster who put up a picture of a correctly turned out, well presented horse who happens to be a similar type to the OP's as a demonstration of what the plaited version looks like.  Even better, that horse was shown hairy previously, so more useful to help the OP visualise the transition.  

Meanwhile, other people are posting suggestions and statements that are downright incorrect in terms of showing - colour of tack, suggestions of coloured browbands, incorrect show types, incorrect statements about bridlework and slipheads - but no one bothers to mention these when, in the grand scheme of things, the OP is going to go much further wrong in showing terms following this "advice" than turning out their horse the same way Riverdalec does!

And the reason I don't post often is that it raises my blood pressure far too much due to situations like this!


----------



## Vizslak (15 June 2011)

It has been said though that lots of pros use it in the show ring, you would think, if that was the case, then Lynn would at least have heard of it?


----------



## Vizslak (15 June 2011)

nobody else has raised blood pressures though, we are just discussing the bit. It's one of those round and round conversations because none of us have seen or heard of it before enough to come to a conclusion, but we are just discussing options of how we think the bit may work or best be fitted. 
I agree with you though we have totally hijacked the OP, we should move the convo to elsewhere really....sorry OP.


----------



## cob&onion (15 June 2011)

Vizslak said:



			I agree with you though we have totally hijacked the OP, we should move the convo to elsewhere really....sorry OP.
		
Click to expand...

 My post has soooo many replies not to do with my question 
I have however sifted through to some of the replies from my first post, thank you 

I think i will leave the mane and feather for now (we are doing a small local show in july in the inhand) so may ask the judges opinion on what to do.
She has got alot of maturing to do and muscle to build up and weight to loose, so will see how she is looking next year.


----------



## alphanumeric (15 June 2011)

I'm not sure where it says that lots of pros use it in the ring.  I have not used the bit personally and nor have I seen it used by a pro that I can call to mind - it's certainly not something that I have come across in 10 odd years of working/having a horse on pro showing yards - but that's not to say pros don't use it, I don't inspect every single bit in every single horse's mouth at every show I go to!

It was in the interests of the discussion on the bit that I first posted my understanding of how the bit worked, which corresponds with the way Riverdalec has fitted it.  What I initially said is logical and addresses the problem that Riverdalec says, which is that her horse does not like poll pressure and this is a showing-acceptable solution that minimises poll pressure.  

What I find frustrating is that some people seem to be unable to understand that the way the bit has been used in this instance does exactly what the user wants it to do and the horse goes happily in it.  Whether or not you have come across it before or think it should be fitted differently, how can you ask more of a person than to understand the effects of the tack they are using, interpret their horse's reactions in a sensible (and hopefully correct) manner and be receptive to improving their way of going?  And that goes for ANY discipline!


----------



## Fii (15 June 2011)

cob&onion said:



 My post has soooo many replies not to do with my question 
I have however sifted through to some of the replies from my first post, thank you 

I think i will leave the mane and feather for now (we are doing a small local show in july in the inhand) so may ask the judges opinion on what to do.
She has got alot of maturing to do and muscle to build up and weight to loose, so will see how she is looking next year.
		
Click to expand...

Lot's of luck with the show. 
 And i think you are right, the best person to ask for advice would be a show judge.
 Don't forget to have fun!!


----------



## Fii (15 June 2011)

alphanumeric said:



			I'm not sure where it says that lots of pros use it in the ring.  I have not used the bit personally and nor have I seen it used by a pro that I can call to mind - it's certainly not something that I have come across in 10 odd years of working/having a horse on pro showing yards - but that's not to say pros don't use it, I don't inspect every single bit in every single horse's mouth at every show I go to!

It was in the interests of the discussion on the bit that I first posted my understanding of how the bit worked, which corresponds with the way Riverdalec has fitted it.  What I initially said is logical and addresses the problem that Riverdalec says, which is that her horse does not like poll pressure and this is a showing-acceptable solution that minimises poll pressure.  

What I find frustrating is that some people seem to be unable to understand that the way the bit has been used in this instance does exactly what the user wants it to do and the horse goes happily in it.  Whether or not you have come across it before or think it should be fitted differently, how can you ask more of a person than to understand the effects of the tack they are using, interpret their horse's reactions in a sensible (and hopefully correct) manner and be receptive to improving their way of going?  And that goes for ANY discipline!
		
Click to expand...

I understand why the person has this bit fitted as she does, i get it, even if i agree with another poster who said if used harshly (without meening to) it would be very painfull.

  What i would like to know (repeating myself) is.............
 Was this bit made and designed to be worn this way, or.....
 Has this person adapted the way it has been worn, for herself.

 Simple question, not having a go at anyone, just interested.


----------



## FMM (15 June 2011)

Interestingly, at least 3 judges have commented on here both about the OP's original question and also about the bit issue.  Most people don't say "I am a judge and this is what I think ..."

I would listen to what alphanumeric is saying - it truly makes a lot of sense ...


----------



## Enfys (15 June 2011)

Vizslak said:



			What because people are curious about something, related to horses that they would like to find out more about??? Isn't that the point of posting on the forum?
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely. 

This thread has just gone the way of any prolonged conversation, off at a tangent, then lurching back to the original point and then pinging off in another direction, normal healthy proceedings as far as I am concerned. Look at any thread that goes on for more than 10-20 posts, few of them stick religeously with the original subject.

I asked a simple, question the other day and that went to, oh, what 500+ posts? Boinging about like a tennis ball at Wimbledon, with a few associated tantrums, no harm done and possibly, someone, somewhere, read something that may have been of use to them, or had an "I didn't know _that"_ moment.


----------



## Sky1 (15 June 2011)

Fii said:



			Lot's of luck with the show. 
 And i think you are right, the best person to ask for advice would be a show judge.
		
Click to expand...

Thats a whole new subject!!

It must be so hard on here to know who knows anything and who knows nothing but has an opinion!  I think if you were anything like serious you would take the time to go to some county shows and find out how its done properly, that way you get the right answers. I bet many people on here have only done local showing where to be honest anything goes and frankly it rarely goes the way it should!!


----------



## Serenity087 (15 June 2011)

Not me, Sky.. Affiliated and County shows me.  Gave up after falling ill to Glandular Fever, realising it wasn't actually something you got anything back out of and loaning my horse out.

Oh I'm tempted to try this sidesaddle showing lark... It's not as strict looking as to type (Sadly,  mine is a bit of a cut and shut - lovely cob head, neck and shoulders, gorgeous peachy cob butt, but then spindly legs and a stupidly long back.  Too short for a hunter, to heavy for a riding horse.  How inconsiderate of her to have not read the specs on show horses before being born   ) - and I do love showing off as much as my horse does...

... but by god it's a bitchy pasttime!


----------



## Sky1 (15 June 2011)

Serenity087 said:



			Not me, Sky.. Affiliated and County shows me.  Gave up after falling ill to Glandular Fever, realising it wasn't actually something you got anything back out of and loaning my horse out.

Oh I'm tempted to try this sidesaddle showing lark... It's not as strict looking as to type (Sadly,  mine is a bit of a cut and shut - lovely cob head, neck and shoulders, gorgeous peachy cob butt, but then spindly legs and a stupidly long back.  Too short for a hunter, to heavy for a riding horse.  How inconsiderate of her to have not read the specs on show horses before being born   ) - and I do love showing off as much as my horse does...

... but by god it's a bitchy pasttime!
		
Click to expand...

Yes because everyone has an opinion! But aint that horses!

Very inconsiderate I'd say!
But at least you can see her faults


----------



## Riverdalelc (15 June 2011)

I really do give up! All I was doing was posting some pics as examples for someone who asked for advise and seemed to get too many critical earfuls back!

Thank you to everyone who has posted comments in my defence.  Here is the picture that we took of Lynn Russell's bridle with the old version of the bit so that we could look around and see where to get one from  When I contacted Abbey bits they had updated the design which had the same principle:
































These pics were taken on the final day in the judging so surely if something was wrong, SOMEONE would have said something to me, especially as we had a tack inspection!

AND even if I am wearing this bit 'incorrectly' I REALLY DON'T CARE! Ruby loves this bit and people can comment all they like! 

As I mentioned way back in this thread, this has completely hijacked someone's post for advice which I think is unfair.


----------



## Sky1 (15 June 2011)

Maybe some people will now have learned something!!


----------



## jenki13 (15 June 2011)

Riverdalelc I shouldn't take offence about anything that's been posted about your bit choice. With something unusual & pretty hard to find information about it's understandable that people question things that are different or "appear wrong" on first glance.

I've had enough questions about what type of bit it is that I ride my horse in & the old how does it work / is it severe Qs & that's a cheltenham gag so not that "out there"! 

I for one have found it very interesting reading & hopefully the OP didn't mind to much about the hi-jacking. Good luck in your show cob&onion!


----------



## Sky1 (15 June 2011)

jenki13 said:



			Riverdalelc I shouldn't take offence about anything that's been posted about your bit choice. With something unusual & pretty hard to find information about it's understandable that people question things that are different or "appear wrong" on first glance.

I've had enough questions about what type of bit it is that I ride my horse in & the old how does it work / is it severe Qs & that's a cheltenham gag so not that "out there"! 

I for one have found it very interesting reading & hopefully the OP didn't mind to much about the hi-jacking. Good luck in your show cob&onion! 

Click to expand...

But maybe they should check their facts before gobbing off. Just an idea!


----------



## binkymerlin (15 June 2011)

ohhh a swales pelham. i ride in one too. my horse is not a fan of poll pressure. a neu school swales suits him just fine. there is loads of info on the swales bit. and for the record IT IS FITTED CORRECTLY!


----------



## Riverdalelc (15 June 2011)

binkymerlin said:



			ohhh a swales pelham. i ride in one too. my horse is not a fan of poll pressure. a neu school swales suits him just fine. there is loads of info on the swales bit. and for the record IT IS FITTED CORRECTLY!
		
Click to expand...

Sorry but this bit is not a swales. x


----------



## binkymerlin (16 June 2011)

meh looks the same, same type of action etc.










 lol i think the lack of info re the bolson? is confusing people. they just want to know what it does and is it fitted correctly. they just want to know!!!lol!


----------



## doriscob1 (16 June 2011)

Serenity, I know you from old and we haven't spoken for years on here, you'll know from my user name who I am. Our boy was 4th at HOYS last year in the ladies hunter so I do think that I have some substance to my response, a sliphead is absolutely not 'correct' for showing. It's correct if you have a rugby pelham but for any other pelhams I don't think so. A double YES but not a pelham. I find it very frustrating that people who don't know how 2 pieces of leatherwork work have the gall to comment on a bit - and as we all know there are millions of bit options so we surely cannot know about them all?

For the record I do think this bit looks odd, I don't think it needs a sliphead but equally as I know nothing about it (along with 99% of other respondents) I don't feel qualified to comment on how the user is using it.

Back to the original question, I believe that the OP should see how her horse matures but IMO s/he is not either a sports nor a cob type.


----------



## Faye1 (16 June 2011)

binkymerlin said:



			meh looks the same, same type of action etc.
		
Click to expand...

err, no! Totally different action and doesn't look the same at all!

The 'belton' bit has the mouthpiece attached to the 'bridoon/snaffle' rein with the 'curb' attachment freely swinging (therefore acts like a snaffle with a freely-rotating curb and no poll pressure)

The swales has the mouthpiece fixed to the curb rein, with the 'bridoon' freely rotating, so it acts like a weymouth, with a harsh action on the curb.

Two VERY different bits! I'd be very worried if you thought they acted in the same way....!!


----------



## Fii (16 June 2011)

Sky1 said:



			But maybe they should check their facts before gobbing off. Just an idea!
		
Click to expand...

Oh do behave!
 Nobody was *gobbing off* as you so delicately put it.
 If you had  read the whole thread properly you would realise we were trying to check the facts, and frankly getting nowere.
 Thankyou riverdale, for the update, but i am still not sure, is the bit  made to be worn this way, can you confirm this?


----------



## Janette (16 June 2011)

She has confirmed this many times!


----------



## Sky1 (16 June 2011)

Fii said:



			Oh do behave!
 Nobody was *gobbing off* as you so delicately put it.
 If you had  read the whole thread properly you would realise we were trying to check the facts, and frankly getting nowere.
 Thankyou riverdale, for the update, but i am still not sure, is the bit  made to be worn this way, can you confirm this?
		
Click to expand...

I have read it properly thanks and to me telling someone they are using their kit wrong is gobbing off, what do you call it? 

If you had read the thread properly you will have seen many times RC and others saying the bit IS being used correctly. !! For those who are still unsure
ITS NOT A SWALES
IT IS BEING USED CORRECTLY!!!  Is that clear enough?


----------



## Flame_ (16 June 2011)

I think those two bits  - or the one pictured above, and the one pictured earlier but fitted incorrectly - would work in a similar way, applying extremely strong curb pressure without poll pressure. I wouldn't use either of them, however if one were to use one it would be on a particularly strong horse. This discussion escalated because this rider suggested this bit is as mild as a snaffle when it clearly isn't!


----------



## doriscob1 (16 June 2011)

Flame_ said:



			I think those two bits  - or the one pictured above, and the one pictured earlier but fitted incorrectly - would work in a similar way, applying extremely strong curb pressure without poll pressure. I wouldn't use either of them, however if one were to use one it would be on a particularly strong horse. This discussion escalated because this rider suggested this bit is as mild as a snaffle when it clearly isn't!
		
Click to expand...

If you can ride correctly with two reins then the bit acts exactly as a snaffle, the curb only comes into play if you want it to and to the degree that you want it to.


----------



## kerilli (16 June 2011)

Sky1 said:



			But maybe they should check their facts before gobbing off. Just an idea!
		
Click to expand...

Since when is questioning  "gobbing off" ? (charmingly put, btw)
There weren't any accusations imho other than along the lines of "is it correctly fitted? if so why is the top ring redundant-looking?"  Are those accusations, really?
Anyone could see the horse was going v nicely and happily in the bit, that was already stated by more than 1 of us.

And where exactly are we supposed to "check our facts" on a bit that most of us have never seen or heard of, and which we can only find pictured in 1 other place (in a catalogue, not on a horse!) on the internet?! Some of us come on here to LEARN not to bitch, just in case that escaped some people!   



Riverdalelc said:



			Please note that this is not a loose ring pelham as such, in effect it is a snaffle (straight bar)
		
Click to expand...

I think this is what threw a few of us, since it isn't a snaffle IF it has a curb chain fitted and a second rein used. As doriscob1 says though, it is a snaffle until that rein is used.

btw, please can someone tell me, do workers have to wear a double or pelham?


----------



## doriscob1 (16 June 2011)

Workers, same as flat classes - either a double or pelham, whichever your horse prefers


----------



## kerilli (16 June 2011)

doriscob1 said:



			Workers, same as flat classes - either a double or pelham, whichever your horse prefers 

Click to expand...

great, thankyou.


----------



## FMM (16 June 2011)

Actually, you can use pretty much whatever bitting combination you like for workers - I've seen everything from gags, doubles, snaffles, pelhams and other bits which I have no idea what they are called!

Kerelli - there were some posts on this thread (not yours) which were taking a very accusatory tone pretty much saying that Riverdalec was lying about who suggested it to her, how she was told to use it etc etc.  And you know yourself how many "experts" there are on here ....!!!!

I have seen this horse being ridden both by her owner and ride judges in this bitting combination at competitions and she always goes sweetly and obediently. And neither has any instructor or judge suggested that the bit is being used incorrectly (and believe me, they will if there is a problem!)


----------



## Vizslak (16 June 2011)

thats all fine FMM, nobody is having a go. I'm just really interested in the bit, personally I dont care whether its fitted correctly or not, the horse looks happy and the poster is clearly happy with it, its entirely up to them how they use it. Its just a very very unusual bit, whats wrong with us wanting to know more about it, its original intended use and how it was designed to be used and fitted?


----------



## greenberry (16 June 2011)

JESUS! I've just read through this entire thread and I feel almost embarrassed!
For those that have been supportive or shown genuine interest then that's great, but for those who keep posting questions on the bit, speaking to lynn russell then chill, it's a bit for christs sake, it does exactly what the OP wants it to do, it achieves the action required of the rider, the horse likes it, she's been to shows and clinics and nothings been said....what more do you want!

Cob&onion you horse is totally gorgeous and really at unaffiliated level it doesn't matter too much about your turnout in terms of coloured browband, brown/black tack etc. Perhaps you should have a go at a few classes and see which you do best in. Most local shows encourage having a go and like it when you make an effort 

And as for 'the bit bandit/ horse abuser' I really feel sorry for you, to me your bit looks fine, it suits you and your horse and does exactly what you want it to, your horse looks beautiful and you certainly did not deserve the lynching you've got! Ignore these idiots and carry on doing what your doing 

and to add, if I was told at a LR clinic to try a bit and I liked it and my horse went well in it then I would sure as hell continue to use it despite 80% of HH telling me I was wrong. 
AAAANNNDDDD... guys there are far to many people on here doing stupid things with their horses, wearing saddles up the horses neck, using bits far too low in their horses mouth, with too tight browbands, wondering why their horse has become nappy....go and lynch them instead.


----------



## Vizslak (16 June 2011)

christ nobody is lynching anyone?! The only lynching going on is the people posting about people posting about the bit now


----------



## FMM (16 June 2011)

Vizslak said:



			christ nobody is lynching anyone?! The only lynching going on is the people posting about people posting about the bit now 

Click to expand...


There are ways to ask questions, and there were a few members who were (I consider) extremely rude and I hope would never speak to people like that in real life!   And I am not wanting to lynch, name names, hit them over the head with a brick - just asking "politely" to consider the way they write something and remember that NO ONE knows everything there is to know about horses ...


----------



## Lady La La (16 June 2011)

Vizslak said:



			christ nobody is lynching anyone?! The only lynching going on is the people posting about people posting about the bit now 

Click to expand...

Agreed. People are questioning what they do not know..

How else is anybody supposed to learn? No one has said "Wrong. wrong wrong wrong your bit is wrong, you're a bad owner. Cruel, must be burned at stake... " 
Folk have just asked if the bit is fitted correctly and, when the OP didn't reply for a rather long time, speculated amungst themselves as to how the bit worked/should be fitted.

I see no 'lynching' here


----------



## greenberry (16 June 2011)

FMM said:



			There are ways to ask questions, and there were a few members who were (I consider) extremely rude and I hope would never speak to people like that in real life!   And I am not wanting to lynch, name names, hit them over the head with a brick - just asking "politely" to consider the way they write something and remember that NO ONE knows everything there is to know about horses ...
		
Click to expand...


Amen, well put FMM


----------



## Vizslak (16 June 2011)

I dont see anyone that has claimed to know everything about horses though have they? Surely all anyone has said is that they don't know what the bit is etc? If anyone had claimed to know what the bit was and that it was fitted incorrectly etc I could understand the point but none of us do! 
I'm very confused that LR doesnt know what a belton is and has never used one but there is a pic of one on her bridles, maybe the bit has a different name too? In which case maybe there would be further info on it under its other name!


----------



## Weezy (16 June 2011)

I have really enjoyed learning about a new bit TBH.  I actually contacted FMM to ask if she knew the bit in question, as a friend on FB had brought up the matter, I had never seen it before and was interested in it's use and fitting.  I haven't commented on the thread before now as I had nothing to say, but I do think it has been thoroughly educational...I tend to skip over the posts that are shouty but say nothing


----------



## Jesstickle (16 June 2011)

FMM said:



			There are ways to ask questions, and there were a few members who were (I consider) extremely rude and I hope would never speak to people like that in real life!   And I am not wanting to lynch, name names, hit them over the head with a brick - just asking "politely" to consider the way they write something and remember that NO ONE knows everything there is to know about horses ...
		
Click to expand...

Which was the point I was trying to make yesterday. MOST people have been very politely interested but as usual a couple have phrased things in a way which seems rude to me. As usual on this forum. It's a shame that people can't be more considerate about what they write. 

I thought I was just going soft but if other people have interpreted the posts the same way I have I can't be going completely batty surely?


----------



## only_me (16 June 2011)

You don't have to use a double or a pelham to do working hunters!
You can use just about any bit you want, the majority that I have seen jump in a snaffle 

As for the bit, I think it is very interesting and have learnt from the thread, and have been looking for a similar bit, and these guys call it by a watson pelham
http://www.bombers.co.za/node/374


----------



## Lucy_Nottingham (16 June 2011)

For those people who are still wanting to"learn" about this bit river dale pointed you in the correct direction to find out at the beginning of this post to go and talk to Abbey bits!!! Not google it etc as it is a unique bit and is aware of the fact. So rather than some of the rude and unhelpful posts that have been made why don't you go and ask the manufacturers about it and then you might get the answers you want!


----------



## only_me (16 June 2011)

Lucy_Nottingham said:



			For those people who are still wanting to"learn" about this bit river dale pointed you in the correct direction to find out at the beginning of this post to go and talk to Abbey bits!!! Not google it etc as it is a unique bit and is aware of the fact. So rather than some of the rude and unhelpful posts that have been made why don't you go and ask the manufacturers about it and then you might get the answers you want!
		
Click to expand...


As you may be aware people call bits by different names (eg. 3 ring gag, bubble bit, 3 ring pelham), and by lookng at different styles I came across a bit that looks very similar in action to the belson bit but has a different name...

Oh, and it wasn't through google I went straight to bombers - If I was looking for a particular bit, you can be sure that Bombers has every type of bit and more!!


----------



## Vizslak (16 June 2011)

Lucy_Nottingham said:



			For those people who are still wanting to"learn" about this bit river dale pointed you in the correct direction to find out at the beginning of this post to go and talk to Abbey bits!!! Not google it etc as it is a unique bit and is aware of the fact. So rather than some of the rude and unhelpful posts that have been made why don't you go and ask the manufacturers about it and then you might get the answers you want!
		
Click to expand...

I have done, not had any replies yet though, I contacted Abbey, Albion and Dobert.


----------



## Vizslak (16 June 2011)

thats very similar OM, well done!


----------



## kerilli (16 June 2011)

Lucy_Nottingham said:



			For those people who are still wanting to"learn" about this bit river dale pointed you in the correct direction to find out at the beginning of this post to go and talk to Abbey bits!!! Not google it etc as it is a unique bit and is aware of the fact. So rather than some of the rude and unhelpful posts that have been made why don't you go and ask the manufacturers about it and then you might get the answers you want!
		
Click to expand...

trying to track down a bit you don't know the name of is not easy! it's been called a Belton, belson, and watson pelham on here, and a Swales (which imho it is not). so, which is it?


----------



## Lucy_Nottingham (16 June 2011)

As river dale bought it under belt on I would ask abbey asking about that bit. It is not a Swales... But I am sure if you describe it to abbey they will know the bit they made, I would hope. So hopefully when y get hold of them they will be able to help you


----------



## kerilli (16 June 2011)

ok, Belton it is then.


----------



## Lucy_Nottingham (16 June 2011)

Hope you find the info you need


----------



## *hic* (16 June 2011)

Looking at the watson pelham it's different again as the "snaffle" rings are connected through a hollow mouthpiece to which the shanks are attached meaning that the shanks move together. In the picures of the belton on the lynn russell bridle the shanks are loose on the "snaffle" mouthpiece and therefore move independently of each other as well as the mouthpiece.


----------



## Patches (16 June 2011)

Personally I think the later pictures that the poster posted of Ruby show the bit far more clearly and it doesn't look like a pelham, in the usual sense, in those pictures and neither does it look "wrong" to a first impression. 

Clearly Ruby is happy in this bit, as is the poster, and to have such success in the show ring is testament to it's effectiveness and correctness. 

I will hold my hands up and say on looking at the very first picture something about the bit didn't look quite right, but did wonder if it's use/fitting was more obvious when seen closer up. This is clearly the case because  listening to the explanations and understanding how it works, combined with the later pictures a few pages ago, it is plainly obvious now that the bit is used/fitted as intended. 

I wish you continued success for your lovely mare Ruby (and I would love to see her hogged!) and good luck to the OP, cob and onion, and her horse in their future showing attempts too. 

Can I also say it was very gracious of River....can't remember the last bit of username....to post subsequent pictures of Ruby (strangely I remember the horse's name lol), given the comments the initial pictures drew.


----------



## GingerCat (16 June 2011)

OMG! I really do feel sorry for the OP who asked for an opinion on her cob, but instead had her thread hijacked by so many ignorant people banging on about bits!

If the bit in question worries you all so much you should have started your own thread!...Ridiculous


----------



## Vizslak (16 June 2011)

Here we go peeps, final information on the bit from Albion, who kindly got back to me this afternoon. Thanks RD for helping us all to learn something new, and to C&O for allowing the post hijack. 

The Belton bit was designed as a training bit, it minimizes pressures on the bars and gives a positive indication through the reins.



The bit is fitted like a normal mullen mouth.



The snaffle contact is standard and for the curb the influence is totally outside of the mouth including poll pressure.



The bit gives a clear communication for training but it is not passed for competition use.



The Belton bit used currently being used by riders such as Emile Faurie who trains his younger horses in it before introducing the double bridle.  It is fitted using a snaffle bridle with two sets of reins.


----------



## FMM (16 June 2011)

Thanks Vizslak -

I will say one more thing.  Lots of people insisted that RD was totally wrong in the way she had fitted and was using this bit.

She could easily have been influenced by this and changed the fitting of the bridle and bit to what the majority were telling her to do. WHich would have meant the bit was then being used incorrectlyl.

So, we have many pages of questions and theories - including "professional opinions" from experts - and she was (according to the way I have understood your post) correct in the first place.

I believe we have all (or ought to have done) learnt something from this rather meandering post - that none of us know as much about bitting as we thought we did!  And the professional opinion stating categorically that the bit was not fitted correctly was also misinformed.

And I salute RD for the calm and reasoned way she stuck with what she KNEW was correct.


----------



## Serenity087 (16 June 2011)

How fascinating that you can entirely change the action of a bit with a little bit of fiddling!!!

I have to admit, I still don't understand how the pivot action of the curb has been removed or why there is a redundant ring on the top of it, but it just proves how much a bit is more than a lump of metal in a horses mouth!!!

Thank you for an informative thread.

P.S. - Deviation is the spice of life.  The OP has had answers and now we've all learnt about a new bit.  Why is this a problem?


----------



## MotherOfChickens (16 June 2011)

cool piece of kit OP, and a lovely horse 

as to those who thought to 'check' with LR, seriously? lol.


----------



## binkymerlin (16 June 2011)

Faye1 said:



			err, no! Totally different action and doesn't look the same at all!

The 'belton' bit has the mouthpiece attached to the 'bridoon/snaffle' rein with the 'curb' attachment freely swinging (therefore acts like a snaffle with a freely-rotating curb and no poll pressure)

The swales has the mouthpiece fixed to the curb rein, with the 'bridoon' freely rotating, so it acts like a weymouth, with a harsh action on the curb.

Two VERY different bits! I'd be very worried if you thought they acted in the same way....!!
		
Click to expand...

haha oohhh look there is some info every one^^^

meh again if it works it works. and really? it doesn't look similar at all? blimy i must be tripping! poor op. i dunno you get women in a room together and chuck in a strange bit


----------



## cob&onion (16 June 2011)

binkymerlin said:



			i dunno you get women in a room together and chuck in a strange bit

Click to expand...


 yes i am the original OP - thanks for opinions about my girly, and i don't mind my post being hijacked - you learn something new everyday


----------



## EAST KENT (16 June 2011)

For my money any cob looks a Hell of a lot better "skinned" as in hogged,feathers skinned off and a lovely narrow pulled tail emerging from that "cook`s bottom"..bloody gorgeous. Hairy cobs make my trimming fingers itch,as I can always see how beautiful they could be.


----------



## fleabittengrey (16 June 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			For my money any cob looks a Hell of a lot better "skinned" as in hogged,feathers skinned off and a lovely narrow pulled tail emerging from that "cook`s bottom"..bloody gorgeous. Hairy cobs make my trimming fingers itch,as I can always see how beautiful they could be.

Click to expand...

"Pop" - there goes another can of worms!!


----------



## Riverdalelc (16 June 2011)

Vizslak said:



			Here we go peeps, final information on the bit from Albion, who kindly got back to me this afternoon. Thanks RD for helping us all to learn something new, and to C&O for allowing the post hijack. 

The Belton bit was designed as a training bit, it minimizes pressures on the bars and gives a positive indication through the reins.



The bit is fitted like a normal mullen mouth.



The snaffle contact is standard and for the curb the influence is totally outside of the mouth including poll pressure.



The bit gives a clear communication for training but it is not passed for competition use.



The Belton bit used currently being used by riders such as Emile Faurie who trains his younger horses in it before introducing the double bridle.  It is fitted using a snaffle bridle with two sets of reins.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for posting this, I rest my case.


----------



## Flame_ (16 June 2011)

I'm wary of posting this as I might just be missing something really obvious but I will anyway. Sorry, unless I've read it wrong, I don't think that explanation really clarifies things tbh. 

 Am I being thick or does it not really say how the thing is designed to attach to a bridle?


----------



## Fii (16 June 2011)

Dons tin hat, and sit's next to flame. 
It is fitted like a normal mullen mouth, snaffle or pelham i am not sure which.


----------



## Vizslak (17 June 2011)

It says ''It is fitted using a snaffle bridle''
ets I did specifically ask amongst other things if the bit was to be fitted to a snaffle or weymouth bridle, the above is the reply to that question.
ETS (again) that it also does clarify that 'the snaffle contact is standard' therefore, the cheeks fit to the snaffle ring.


----------



## EAST KENT (17 June 2011)

fleabittengrey said:



			"Pop" - there goes another can of worms!!   

Click to expand...

I know..sorry! But when I see these potential beauties going around untrimmed it`s too much to bear 
   Still,maybe we will get back to the subject..not argueing about what knows what about a bit


----------



## Flame_ (17 June 2011)

Thank you Vizslak.

I wonder if it is a modified imitation of the Albion version which could explain why it looks pretty wrong with those curb rings just stuck there. Maybe the true version is used that way, but appears tidier like the bit Binkymerlin (hope I remembered that right) posted? Just an idea.


----------



## Sky1 (17 June 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			I know..sorry! But when I see these potential beauties going around untrimmed it`s too much to bear 
   Still,maybe we will get back to the subject..not argueing about what knows what about a bit
		
Click to expand...

I dont think thats what she meant. A show cob is not a trimmed up traditional! They are two completely different types! Another thread coming on.....


----------

