# Should kickers go at the back?



## solitairex (2 January 2011)

I was out hunting yesterday, (with the most boringest hunt possible - left and went for a hack with my friend instead!) and there were two horses that were kicking. Well one was a very small, very scruffy pony with a (est. 11 year old) boy on top, and the pony was a nightmare - he kept cantering up near the front and the little pony kept cow kicking/bucking out and almost caught my pony at one point. He didn't have any tape on, and was not warning anyone or making any attempt to be careful of the others - obviously he was young but you would have thought someone would have told him to go near the back or put some tape in etc. Another was a elder lady, and yes she had green tape in, but she was getting very angry whenever anyone got to close to her even if we were cantering around the edge of a field, fair enough we should be able to control our horses enough to give her space but it just made life very difficult with my pony as she was being an absolute tank and couldn't canter as slowly as the said horse infront. Now with the lady, I respect she was good in warning us and was right to get snappy as it saved any injurys and that she needs to teach her horse, but the boy I was rather suprised nobody had told him not too. 

What are your views?


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## Starbucks (2 January 2011)

Think this is a tricky one!  Sounds like they should both have had a red ribbon in, but people don't seem to like to brand their horse "a kicker".

Don't think people with red should have to go at the back, it's normally easy enough to keep well away if they do..

Sorry you had a rubbish day!


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## solitairex (2 January 2011)

Starbucks said:



			Think this is a tricky one!  Sounds like they should both have had a red ribbon in, but people don't seem to like to brand their horse "a kicker".

Don't think people with red should have to go at the back, it's normally easy enough to keep well away if they do..

Sorry you had a rubbish day!
		
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It was expected; last time we went XC schooling instead! Roll on Taunton Vale tomorow haha! But yeah, I definetely agree that people are not wanting to brand their horse. x


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## EAST KENT (2 January 2011)

Anything not guaranteed to behave should have a red ribbon,be safely at the back AND bum pushed into the hedge when hounds appear.It is only good manners.


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## stencilface (2 January 2011)

Trouble is if you have a red ribbon, you are admitting your horse can kick and probably could make you liable for any accidents.

Why not just assume every horse could kick, seeing as they all have potential too


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## Ditchjumper2 (2 January 2011)

EAST KENT said:



			Anything not guaranteed to behave should have a red ribbon,be safely at the back AND bum pushed into the hedge when hounds appear.It is only good manners.
		
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Hear, hear I quite agree!!! Was out yesterday and my chap who never kicks was a bit excited and kept bucking, so I kept him to the back til he settled....easy!


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## EAST KENT (2 January 2011)

Far better to "admit it" than injure another horse/rider or far worse a HOUND,the ultimate crime.It is up to you to have manners and consideration for others.


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## solitairex (2 January 2011)

Exactly EK. It seriously fustrates me, it was a Childrens Meet aswell so they should have been teaching the children, all the field master did was smoke!


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## Millyard Rejects (2 January 2011)

Hunted a mare a few years ago-total nightmare(no pun intended) would fly kick and buck if anyone got too close on their horses. Happily put ribbon in her tail and often told people to stay clear of the old sod!  However this mare was a saint when hounds ran around her legs and went on to have a good time as whips horse. She just hated been behind and missing the action!

Kids meets are agreat idea except....they are not usually the kids of any of the hunt staff and they dont like to be seen to be telling kids off when they are introducing them to hunting? But a quiet word from staff to a parent or even an older child to pass on the requirements. There is also the possibility the little pony was feeling a tad fresh from been stabled over christmas with the rubbish weather and wasnt its normal quiet trusted self! Havent we all had a pony or horse like that?


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## Farma (2 January 2011)

My mare kicks so I wear a notice on my back everywhere we go & have red ribbon - do people take notice -NO!!!!  I know I have done everything in my power to warn people so my feeling is if their horse gets kicked its their fault.


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## Doormouse (2 January 2011)

Agree with EK completely about horses that kick and hounds, very very important to make sure any horses bum is turned away from hounds no matter how much you trust them, in the field they can be taken by surprise and just a tickle from a hounds stern could aggravate a horse and it could kick out.
I would personally think that someone from the hunt should have noticed this boy and just gently explained to him that he should perhaps put on a red ribbon in future and explain why etc
An adult with a green ribbon (indicating young horse) should not have been out at a children's meet, adults out should be helpers only and you cannot help children on a young horse.  Had it been on a normal day she should have been at the back because IMO young horses should not be at the front and surrounded by other horses until they are confident.


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## lauraandjack (3 January 2011)

My horse has been kicked 3 times this season, each time he has been quietly minding his own business.  Once was when we were cantering along, side by side (not too close) to another horse - in all honesty I was lucky it hit the muscle of his shoulder and not my shin 6 inches further back or I'd have had a broken leg......... Said horse actually squared up and lashed out at him in canter!

I do think that if you have a horse that is at all untrustworthy with other horses or hounds, then it is your job to warn others by wearing a red ribbon, and keep your horse the hell out of the way.  If your horse doesn't like others coming up behind it, then you need to be at the back!  Especially at a children's meet, you cannot guarantee that those behind you are in as much control as they perhaps should be!

One kick can end a horse's life, those who ride a kicker and refuse to wear a red ribbon and/or be courteous should think how they would feel if it was their horse that had to be shot because it had been kicked and broken a leg.


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## RunToEarth (3 January 2011)

Whilst I agree kickers should be more aware of where they put themselves in the field, I also think it is worth mentioning that if you decide to use someones horse's bottom as a form of stopping, or get too close to the horse in front of you, you should expect to get kicked, regardless of whether it has a ribbon in or not, all horses will kick if you get too close.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (3 January 2011)

I have a horse that doesnt kick but he gets a red ribbon anyways but do people take a blind bit of notice NOOOOO!!!! It pi$$es me off bigstyle. I have had his back legs STOOD on by a big hunter whos rider didnt know his @ss from his elbow and had rented the horse for the day, he tried to use my 14.3hh horses butt as breaks for his 17hh ID type, needless to say it didnt work.

I also have a mare who didnt kick out in company but again will wear a red ribbon as she bounces about a bit and gets strong, the only way to keep her happy is to have her up front out to one side and it keeps her from having a paddy and POTENTIALLY kicking out.

People do need to use the ribbons but people ALSO need to take heed. If i have a ribbon in my horses tail and he/she kicks anouther horse then I am not taking responsibility for it as you were warned.

Nikki xx


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## RunToEarth (3 January 2011)

NiknKia said:



			I have a horse that doesnt kick but he gets a red ribbon anyways but do people take a blind bit of notice NOOOOO!!!! It pi$$es me off bigstyle. I have had his back legs STOOD on by a big hunter whos rider didnt know his @ss from his elbow and had rented the horse for the day, he tried to use my 14.3hh horses butt as breaks for his 17hh ID type, needless to say it didnt work.
		
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I'm sorry, I don't think you can stick a red ribbon in its tail and expect everyone else to avoid you at all costs, if your horse kicks, keep it at the back.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (3 January 2011)

RunToEarth said:



			I'm sorry, I don't think you can stick a red ribbon in its tail and expect everyone else to avoid you at all costs, if your horse kicks, keep it at the back.
		
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Well I have warned you as i sees it; i tend to keep my horses off to one side not slap bang in the middle (in my post above) so if you have came out to the side to me and still get behind my your there at your own choice so as far as I am concerned if my horse kicks yours its your look out. They havent done yet in all the times they have been in company but there is always a first time.

If you have had your horses butt used as breaks and had the vet bills for it then you might be a bit more sympathetic to where i am coming from. I take the precautions or ribbons and placing my horse to the side everything else is on the other rider.


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## HLOEquestrian (3 January 2011)

My mare does not kick but bucks so whenever I go hunting I put a red ribbon on her, just means that I cannot be blamed for people's stupidness in going up the back of her, they can't say I didn't warn them!


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## RunToEarth (3 January 2011)

NiknKia said:



			If you have had your horses butt used as breaks and had the vet bills for it then you might be a bit more sympathetic to where i am coming from. I take the precautions or ribbons and placing my horse to the side everything else is on the other rider.
		
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If you read my first post I actually did say that I don't think anyone should be that close up someone's bum.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (3 January 2011)

RunToEarth said:



			If you read my first post I actually did say that I don't think anyone should be that close up someone's bum.
		
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I wasnt responding to that post just the one where you quoted me. If I was able to keep my horses at the back then they would be there, unfortuanately i cant so off to one side suits us all. I am not endangering anyone and my horses arent pulling my arms out their sockets


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## Dogstar (3 January 2011)

I am sure I was always taught that a confirmed kicker should not be taken hunting, it is just too dangerous. And a red ribbon for anything that even might kick occasionally. Plus a seriously smacked bottom for anything that does dare to kick.


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## fleabittengrey (3 January 2011)

As a kicker you have a responsibilty to keep your horse from potential of kicking others - so DON'T ride behind the fieldmaster or in any crowd of horses. It infuriates me to see red ribbons in places where you can't help but get near them (becuase at some points in a day it is impossible to keep 5 feet from everyone else!) - I do think that some people feel a red ribbon absolves them from any responsibility or guilt! 

That said - other riders need to respect them too and if someone is stupid enough to crowd your horse with a red ribbon, tut at them and move away for your own safety, might be an inconvenience but not worth the risk.


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## Amymay (4 January 2011)

Kickers shouldn't be out - full stop.


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## sleepingdragon10 (4 January 2011)

amymay said:



			Kickers shouldn't be out - full stop.
		
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That rules Lukey out then


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## Amymay (4 January 2011)

sleepingdragon10 said:



			That rules Lukey out then

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## Daddy_Long_Legs (4 January 2011)

I don't think that kickers shouldn't be out be out as long as the rider keeps the horse down the back and doesn't put the horse in situations where it is going to be surrounded by horses ie standing at a covert.

I was out on Saturday on a friends horse I've hunted him twice this season and he hasn't kicked but today he decided that whilst standing at a covert and we were in the middle of a few horses and he kicked out and unfortunately made contact, luckily I know the girl quite well and there was no hard feelings but her immediate reaction was to shout at me and insisted I go to the back. Which is absolutely fair enough and I was actually in the process of doing it. I gave him a few hefty smacks aswell but the bugger then spent all day kicking at nothing but only when we were standing around. The annoying thing was that I was more aware of people around me and that people seemed to have no problem using other horses as brakes. I spent the rest of the day at the back of the hunt and I've no problem doing that and I wish that other people on horses who even kick the odd time would go to the back and take responsibility of their horse.


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## RunToEarth (4 January 2011)

Santas_leprechaun said:



			I don't think that kickers shouldn't be out be out as long as the rider keeps the horse down the back and doesn't put the horse in situations where it is going to be surrounded by horses ie standing at a covert.

I was out on Saturday on a friends horse I've hunted him twice this season and he hasn't kicked but today he decided that whilst standing at a covert and we were in the middle of a few horses and he kicked out and unfortunately made contact, luckily I know the girl quite well and there was no hard feelings but her immediate reaction was to shout at me and insisted I go to the back. Which is absolutely fair enough and I was actually in the process of doing it. I gave him a few hefty smacks aswell but the bugger then spent all day kicking at nothing but only when we were standing around. The annoying thing was that I was more aware of people around me and that people seemed to have no problem using other horses as brakes. I spent the rest of the day at the back of the hunt and I've no problem doing that and I wish that other people on horses who even kick the odd time would go to the back and take responsibility of their horse.
		
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See, I would hate this. I've never had a horse that kicks, but seem to spend a lot of time avaoiding horses with ribbons in their tails, or horses that have just decided to start booting everything- I'm sorry but when I bring a well mannered horse out hunting, why should I spend my day avoiding ones that kick?


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## Daddy_Long_Legs (4 January 2011)

I think you may have gotten the wrong end of the stick! I was saying that kickers should be at the back and take responsibility and they shouldn't be in the 'throng'.

When I realised the horse I was on kicked I took him straight to the back and avoided everyone but I know there are one or two people in our hunt whose horses do kick out the odd time and no one says anything to them.


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## feefeeb28 (4 January 2011)

Definately keep kickers at the back, green tape on green horses. It's only good manners and common sense!


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## AFlapjack (4 January 2011)

I was out hunting yesterday and there was a horse that had its tail plaited up completely (so just dock length... not sure what you call that?) but it had three different strips of red tape which made it easy to see and so everyone stayed clear. HOWEVER, when we stopped at one point the rider rode around me and parked her horse straight in front!! I could see the horse getting grumpy and flattening ears/swishing tail so I immediately moved.


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## marmalade76 (4 January 2011)

Once out bloodhounding, we had just left the meet and were trotting along a lane. I was up near the front but in front of me, although not directly was a girl who kept turning and waving the folks behind her away, saying that her horse would kick if they got too close. Someone asked why she didn't have a ribbon on it, and her reply was that she didn't need one if other horses didn't get too close   And she was right behing the fieldmaster! 

I agree that those who have horses that are confirmed kicker should stay at the back and out of the way when at the meet, etc, it is simply not fair to everyone else to do otherwise.

And OP, there was a young boy and pony combo out last time I went out hunting that sounded exactly the same - pony far too big for the boy, totally over-horsed, no control at all, pony kept pushing to the front and kicked out several times!


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## Starbucks (4 January 2011)

Just a thought  a lot of you are saying kickers should go at the back, but unless you are the very last person at all times which must be quite difficult to achieve, why should people who ride at the back of the field be subject to all the kickers and those who ride at the front not have to deal with any?


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## wench (4 January 2011)

Henry had odd time when he would kick - problem was he was a whips horse and wanted to be up at the front doing his "job". When he was at the front going flat out no kicking what so ever.

Last time I went out hunting with him, I put him at the back with his red ribbon. There was one point where there was a choice of going over a hunt jump or through a large gap in the hedge. Unfortuantly I was slap bang next to the gap, so half the field decended upon me and Henry, not giving me any chance to either move away from the gap, or go through it first and get him out the way. Suprise, suprise someone got kicked. Not my fault.


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## Amymay (4 January 2011)

Starbucks said:



			Just a thought  a lot of you are saying kickers should go at the back, but unless you are the very last person at all times which must be quite difficult to achieve, why should people who ride at the back of the field be subject to all the kickers and those who ride at the front not have to deal with any?
		
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Because that is actually the rule of the hunting field.  Horses that can't behave should be at the back - or sent home.


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## Starbucks (4 January 2011)

amymay said:



			Because that is actually the rule of the hunting field.  Horses that can't behave should be at the back - or sent home.
		
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Doesnt really make sense though does it!  If a horse is not safe to be out then it shouldnt be out in the first place, if it is out, then I dont really see why it is safer for it to go at the back at the back where you are more likely to have kids and newcomers


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## SpruceRI (4 January 2011)

I ride a kicker and try to start off at the back... but invariably the whole ride turns round and comes back and suddenly I'm at the front.  Plus there's the jumpers and non jumpers.  People splitting off all over the place.  Trying to stay at the back is impossible.  But I make every effort to ensure when we come to a halt that our arse is back in the bushes and everyone is aware not to let their horse rub its chin on mines' bum or anything.  

I've hunted quite a bit in the past and have never kicked anyone apart from one guy who ran in the back of us.  Apologised profusely for using us to stop, and said his horse deserved it.

I was mortified even so, though his horse wasn't hurt.


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## Paddydou (4 January 2011)

I am very lucky to have my old boy who has been used as a solid stopping point on several occasions but I have to say if someone had a kicker and didn't keep its back end away from us (at the front of the field or the back I don't care) I would be really really peeved...

If I am asked I am happy to be run into after being asked or used as Grandad for the day and baby sit but I do not want to have my boy put at risk through bad manners. 

Also if you boot a hound I don't think anyone in the field would forgive you!

Kickers at home please!


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## livetoride (5 January 2011)

Dogstar said:



			I am sure I was always taught that a confirmed kicker should not be taken hunting, it is just too dangerous. And a red ribbon for anything that even might kick occasionally. Plus a seriously smacked bottom for anything that does dare to kick.
		
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Exactly.

One of my peeves is people who do not discipline kickers. Even worse, I've seen people pat their horses when they kick out and not even apologise. In our hunt we've had to make it clear to a couple of riders this season that if they're not prepared to take responsibility and sort their horses out then they're not welcome.


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## bounce (5 January 2011)

Interesting thread.  Personally I think there are several types of kickers and I don't think you can tar all with the same brush.  

There are horses that back in to you on purpose and are aggressive kickers - these should definitely be at the back with as much red tape/ribbon as possible and whenever stood should have the bum faced into a hedge or away from anyone else.  

There are also horses that become a little anxious when completely surrounded and have no space, or someone runs right into them.  These tend to kick only when they really feel threatened.  

My pony has sent a warning shot to someone who was letting their horse use his bum as a chin rest at gallop!  He's not a kicker, but I keep him away from the madding crowd as much as possible to avoid any incident.  You don't have to be at the back to do this but when hacking down tracks or lanes it is easier to be at the back.  

Personally I always try to keep a good distance from any horse as I prefer my horse to come home in one piece.  I know it is difficult in the middle of the action to always keep a safe distance but why do people feel the need to just let their horse run into the rest.  Why not pull up earlier!  If you can only stop by running into someone else then you shouldn't be out until you have better control.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (5 January 2011)

Some of you who are saying 'KEEP AT THE BACK' should try and keep my mare at the back.

Unless youve got unltd strength and endurance your not going to keep her at the back. I had short reins and my hand glued to my breastplate over starap at her withers and she still took off like a scalded cat and went up front so tell me what would you do with that???

I now take the outside edge of a ride it I only have horses on one side of me off to one side as ONE I got get sore arms being dragged up front and TWO my mare doesnt have a sore jaw at the end of the day from me hauling on it.

Its the same with group hacks as well.

Nikki


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## RunToEarth (5 January 2011)

NiknKia said:



			Some of you who are saying 'KEEP AT THE BACK' should try and keep my mare at the back.

Unless youve got unltd strength and endurance your not going to keep her at the back. I had short reins and my hand glued to my breastplate over starap at her withers and she still took off like a scalded cat and went up front so tell me what would you do with that???

Nikki 

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Well, if you can't put your horse where you want in the field, and it kicks, then I would tell you to not come out hunting. 
Put yourself in someone else's position. You are a regular hunter, your horse is well mannered and a good hunter. Your hunting days are continually ruined by someone who cannot hold thier kicker at the back, so puts it in the middle of the field, and expects others to avoid it (and whether you keep it out to the side or not, there are situations where that is not enough). 
I don't enjoy spending days avoiding kickers in the middle of the field, it isn't good manners.


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## Amymay (5 January 2011)

NiknKia said:



			Some of you who are saying 'KEEP AT THE BACK' should try and keep my mare at the back.

Unless youve got unltd strength and endurance your not going to keep her at the back. I had short reins and my hand glued to my breastplate over starap at her withers and she still took off like a scalded cat and went up front so tell me what would you do with that???

I now take the outside edge of a ride it I only have horses on one side of me off to one side as ONE I got get sore arms being dragged up front and TWO my mare doesnt have a sore jaw at the end of the day from me hauling on it.

Its the same with group hacks as well.

Nikki 

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If you have no control and the horse is a kicker to boot (no pun intended) then you shouldn't hunt it.

Simples


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## Amymay (5 January 2011)

There are also horses that become a little anxious when completely surrounded and have no space, or someone runs right into them. These tend to kick only when they really feel threatened.
		
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Bounce, I completely agree with you.

My little Amy May was really great fun to hunt - but after developing a tendancy to kick out due to the above reasons I stopped hunting her.  Shame, because she loved it.  But it was just too much of a risk.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (5 January 2011)

amymay said:



			If you have no control and the horse is a kicker to boot (no pun intended) then you shouldn't hunt it.

Simples 

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Who said anything about lack of control??? She is perfectly happy to be out to the side in the first third of the pack, once we are there she will start and stop and wait etc. She just doesnt like being at the back, and to be honest neither do I , seen to many accidents with the back horses going over anyone who trip/stumbles/falls at the front . Other people have stated this in their post and havent been told they cant take their horses out.

I never ever said shes a confrimed kicker either  But every horse has the potential for it, She pulls faces and minces but hasnt ever struck out but being a mare and temperamental I wouldnt put it past her in season even though SHE HAS NEVER.

Oh and I am not just talking about hunts as I havent been to a hunt in years but there are common ridings that are along the same vein although no dog or fences


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