# Would you breed from this mare...



## GinnieRedwings (6 December 2010)

... and why & what with or why not?

This is Trinny. She is a 15.2hh 9 year old ex-racer (flat) by Royal Applause out of an Efisio mare by Al Nasr. 

Very decent sprinting lines, raced 2 seasons herself but didn't break world records. 

Was put to stud but lost the foal in circumstances I don't have details of and then sold off to a dealer as a riding horse. 

She has been with me 4 years. She weaves and is quite quirky to handle. I personally don't like her as a person very much, but she is mostly quite sweet and easy to ride and I know some horses get quite scarred by the racing management. 

Conformationally, she is pretty good - a bit downhill and light of bone. But her limbs are clean and straight and she has amazingly good feet (in fact she is barefoot at the back in hard work). She has 3 decent paces.

She has been working well at home, but the quirky behaviour in unknown situations means she crumbles in competitions. So she has only done a little dressage and a couple of clear rounds at the local riding club.

She is currently on loan (at home) to a friend of mine, who is having lessons on her, whilst her other half is learning to ride on her and another friend hacks her out a couple of times a week. The arrangement has worked great so far BUT, friends filly is coming up for 3 and is going to be requiring a lot more regular input, friends OH is sort of losing interest in riding and the happy hacker is not in a situation to keep her all to herself. I have tried to sell her before without much success, even though there is nothing really wrong with her.

So, Trinnys future is currently in discussion and I am thinking that she would be a fairly useful broodmare, but would be interested in your opinions:













This last one is a short video, which may be viewed through Photobucket just click on the image:


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## Amymay (6 December 2010)

What reason would you put her in foal for?  To sell or for yourself??


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## BBH (6 December 2010)

For yourself as a keeper possibly but not for someone else. Just MO though.


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## GinnieRedwings (6 December 2010)

I am contemplating her future and this is possibly quite an academic question...

... which is, in your opinion, would this mare be a useful broodmare and if so with what in mind, and if not, why not?

PS: I have currently NO plans to breed from her - just asking for opinions.


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## eventrider23 (6 December 2010)

I have definitely seen worse and put to the right stallion she COULD produce something useful, however it is her vices that worry me as I woudl be worried she would pass them onto foal....


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## Irishlife (6 December 2010)

She looks a useful sort. I would like to cross her with a Connemara to get an exceptional small hunter/riding horse (I am biased having bred some and ultimate teen dream machine. Otherwise I would be inclined to go with an ISH (true halfbred) to breed a potential event sort (3/4 bred). I am not so keen on RIDs on Tbs but dont mind the other way round (personal experience).

As regards her quirks, I have a quirky as hell broodmare who is my best one who has always been an impossible ride ( decked pros regularly including nameless top GP rider who said don't waste your money training her). We have ridden her round the lanes but she just does not "get" the riding thing!!!However has sweet temperament, takes 20 minutes to load (we go through the same ritual every time and it works for her and me), is a great mum and boy does she produce the goods. I have three offspring that I could not bear to sell from her the four year old had an amazing season in ridden hunters and cross country, three year old will be going for the 4yo classes at Dublin next year and her filly is to die for.

However, apart from being a stable door kicker she has no "vices" for want of a better word she is just stubborn awkward and is just , well, herself.

I did have a CB mare who was a pathological weaver and would sweat buckets and have nervous diarrohea (sp) at the same time. SHe would even weave over a field gate. She was in foal when I aquired her and when the foal was born she was so preoccupied she forgot about weaving. Not saying that will happen but this mare was a weaver beyond measure.

With my quirky mare I was fortunate that I could study her full pedigree and assess her relations, dam, dam sires etc all the way back and use those findings as my validation to breed from the obstinate old bag!!! 

So yes I see no reason not to breed from her. Good luck and have fun choosing a stallion.


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## magic104 (6 December 2010)

There are a huge number of mares out there breeding who weave & IMO worse crib who have not passed the vice onto their offspring.  I would agree that she could produce some smart sport ponies & WHP.


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## eventrider23 (6 December 2010)

are you looking to sell or loan her as a broodie?


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## levantosh (6 December 2010)

If her front legs are straight (as a lot of Efisio's are crooked) and she doesn't weave in the field it's def a mare that I would breed from, she looks really nice. I would use a good moving, sensible stallion and breed myself a nice eventer. Also I would get her graded to see what points the judges like/dislike and then use a stallion to improve her weaker points.
I have done this with my own ex-race mare and she is now BWBS main s/b graded scoring 8's and 7's and has bred me a lovely colt with an easy temprement (mare a bit sharp when in work, now is very easy and laid back since foaling).
Good luck in what you decide.
Let me know if your selling her


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## Amymay (6 December 2010)

I am contemplating her future and this is possibly quite an academic question...
		
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As academic question only - then yes.  I think she's quite a nice sort.


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## millitiger (6 December 2010)

If breeding for yourself then yes I would as she is a lovely sort and has the type of conformation I like.

I would put her to something like Wish Upon A Star to breed an eventer.


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## magic104 (6 December 2010)

Do you not think that with so many people trying to breed an event horse that she would fill the teenage market?  I think she could produce some decent 14.2/15hh teenagers eventer.  Also there are smaller adults who dont was a large horse but something a bit neater of about 15.2hh.  She may of course breed upwards even with a pony stallion, but I would be thinking Connie or Welsh C/D.  Something like Machno Carwyn perhaps.
http://www.machno.com/


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## GinnieRedwings (6 December 2010)

*Irishlife & Magic104* - those were my thoughts exactly  although I had thought about a Welsh D (Cundlegreen has lovely babies out of small TBs by her Welsh D stallion, all of which have done extremely well at the Futurity) but a nice sensible full up Connie would do just as well for a great small hunter with a bit of bite.

*Magic104*  this is the perennial question do horses learn to weave from their dam, or do they start weaving because they suddenly, at 18 months old, get pulled out of their field away from their herd and get locked up for 23 hours a day within a highly stressful management. I am tending to think the latter. Trinny weaves whenever she feels anxious  which is often  but out 24/7, within a herd environment (safety in numbers, you see), she is fine. 

She was also used as the weaning nanny for the 2 year old filly, because they had formed a nice relationship from the moment they were turned out together when the filly was 3 weeks old and

1- the filly does not weave, although she was joined at the hip with Trinny from the ages of  1 month to 1 year (when we separated them because they were a bit too well-bonded!)

2- Trinny was hugely maternal and gentle with someone elses baby and is therefore likely to be a good mum.

*Levantosh*  She has very good straight clean limbs  although impossibly twiglet-like - and retired sound from racing. 

*Eventrider23*  I am considering options at the moment, because I am not in a position to do it myself, but if the right home came along 

*Amymay*  why would it be ok in theory only, but not in practice??? Sorry not quite sure what you mean.


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## woodlander (6 December 2010)

I think she looks a very nice sort and has a super pedigree. If you get in touch with Wetherbys you can look up her dam line and see just how much "black type" she has (i.e. performance in top Group and listed races)in her mother line. As a thoroughbred GSB she is eligible to grade both BHHS and WBS and crossed with a scopey and elastic warmblood stallion could produce a top pink papered horse. With her obvious sensitivity you need good and easy temperament and also perhaps a longer back as she looks perhaps a little too short coupled.
She looks pretty tidy in front in her jumping pictures so maybe eventing is a good option.


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## Irishlife (6 December 2010)

magic104 said:



			Do you not think that with so many people trying to breed an event horse that she would fill the teenage market?  I think she could produce some decent 14.2/15hh teenagers eventer.  Also there are smaller adults who dont was a large horse but something a bit neater of about 15.2hh.  She may of course breed upwards even with a pony stallion, but I would be thinking Connie or Welsh C/D.  Something like Machno Carwyn perhaps.
http://www.machno.com/

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Agree totally with Magic, there is definitely a gap for what I call the teen dream machines. When in a world of horse breeding, the famous Mary McCann owner of Cruising comes out and states the most commercial horses in this current market are the TB x Connemaras that has to be worth listening to. Versatility is limitless with these types, superb tough all rounders, gutsy hunters and small eventers, easy keepers. Eagerly awaiting my TB x Connies next year and in the meantime here is one I made earlier!!!!


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## GinnieRedwings (6 December 2010)

Very smart


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## cundlegreen (6 December 2010)

Thanks for the kind comments GR! Your mare is exactly the type I bought to use with my stallion. They may be a bit twig like, but the sprint bred types usually have a backside like a bus and big second thighs, just what I like to see in a potential jumper. They also usually have rather loaded straight shoulders which need refining by the right stallion.
Three full siblings have been out of such a mare, who was a jumping machine, and was very successful in several disciplines. The oldest is now doing very well BE, and the other two as GR says have done very well at the Futurity. ( One got Elite, and the other I was told was up to National level as a dressage prospect, despite being entered in the event section!) Another "plus" of all the sprint breds that I have known, is that they are very good doers.
Re Woodlanders comment about black type in the dam line, I tend to look for the longevity and soundness of the relatives. I bought a mare who was totally non competitive, but whose dam had raced 41 times from 2 to 7 years and won £20,000 the hard way. To my mind, thats the sort of family I would like to breed from.


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## Endrete (6 December 2010)

I would be more than happy to have your girl in my field! 

Possibly because she reminds me of my girl who I got for meat money and just graded with WBS with marks of 7s and 8s!  Angel mare to ride, even novices have ridden her - used in a college for years. Quirky on the ground, esp when in season but she is a different girl now I have had her for a few years - totally chilled out now.  She was amazingly well behaved at her grading, so chilled and she hasnt been out anywhere in years! I am looking at putting her to an arab stallion for a potential eventer/allrounder.   

I also have two mares who weave when stabled, they dont weave with thier foals in the stable with them and none of thier foals weave.  In fact one of them has stopped weaving herself now as well (unless the vet appears-she really hates him!).  Mine are now stabled in open cattle barns and expect at feed times, no weaving!


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## GinnieRedwings (6 December 2010)

magic104 said:



			Do you not think that with so many people trying to breed an event horse that she would fill the teenage market?  I think she could produce some decent 14.2/15hh teenagers eventer.  Also there are smaller adults who dont was a large horse but something a bit neater of about 15.2hh.  She may of course breed upwards even with a pony stallion, but I would be thinking Connie or Welsh C/D.  Something like Machno Carwyn perhaps.
http://www.machno.com/

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THAT, I like a lot - fabulous jumping stype & scope! 

Thank you everyone for letting me know your thoughts. As the overwhelming feeling amongst people who replied is that she would be a useful broodmare, I will give some thought to a carreer change for her.

Here's the complete pedigree:

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=david's+girl&sex=&color=&dog_breed=any&birthyear=&birthland=

and her race record:

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/horse_home.sd?horse_id=583432


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## millitiger (7 December 2010)

magic104 said:



			Do you not think that with so many people trying to breed an event horse that she would fill the teenage market?  I think she could produce some decent 14.2/15hh teenagers eventer.  Also there are smaller adults who dont was a large horse but something a bit neater of about 15.2hh.  She may of course breed upwards even with a pony stallion, but I would be thinking Connie or Welsh C/D.  Something like Machno Carwyn perhaps.
http://www.machno.com/

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I was answering about what I would want from her and that would be an eventer, not a teenagers horse/PC pony.

At 15.2hh crossed with a connemara she would produce something far too small for me although undoubtedly it is a great cross (it is actually something I looked at for my mare but at 15.3hh she simply wouldn't have produced something big enough).


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## Amymay (7 December 2010)

Amymay &#8211; why would it be ok in theory only, but not in practice??? Sorry not quite sure what you mean
		
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Purely down to the glut of horses in the market, that's all.


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## GinnieRedwings (7 December 2010)

Millitiger & Woodlander, sorry, I wasn't dismissing your suggestions in the slightest - for some reason and probably because of her very delicate looks (I know she is a bit rotund on the confo pic, but it was June and she does really well on grass!!!), my brain was not really "seeing" a larger stallion for her. That being said, and bearing in mind the scientific evidence pointing to the size of the mare's uterus as the main limitting factor to the size of the neonate, I am now trying to picture what she would produce to a really nice warmblood... 

Amymay, thank you for clarifying - though I actually disagree with you that producing less foals is the answer to the horse overpopulation - but that's another story (see the BHS responsible breeding thread if you are interested in my opinion on the matter).


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## JanetGeorge (7 December 2010)

Given that she's a bit quirky, I would not be looking to produce a smaller horse from her.  She reminds me very much of a TB mare I had by The Parson - she was sharp as the come - and her first foal (to a coloured WB) was noit just sharp - but also downright nasty!

We did manage to back him (THAT was interesting) but he hurt a hip in the field and it was something of a relief TBH when vet advice was that the prognosis was poor - I put him down!

I would have struggled to sell him sound, as he was definitely a 'professional ride' - but at barely 16hh he was a bit small to interest a professional as an eventer (which was where his breeding and 'talent' indicated he should go.)

The mare (who was only 15.2) had 3 more foals (by my RID stallion - 17hh and BIG) and had no problems foaling.  The first I sold as a 2 year old and he was later backed successfully by an amateur.  We're about to back the 3 year old filly (who moves like a dream and is very sensible) and the two year old filly is a stunner, and the best mannered of all my 2 year old fillies (the rest are RID).

But the beauty is that they have that extra bit of size and substance - should all mature around 16.2 - so if they are a bit sharp it won't make them unsaleable!

I would be a bit careful using a WB - you'd have to check temperament very carefully!!


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## Endrete (7 December 2010)

Out of interest why do you say she is quirky?  I wouldnt worry too much about the weaving but what else makes you say you 'dont like her as a person'.  

My TB was miserable at the college she was used in.  Behaved under saddle but was grumpy on the yard and very difficult when in season.  Completely different now (expect when in season but you cant blame a mare for hormones!).  Wandered across field today with me, having a cuddle and ear scratch.  Still not keen on rugs/girth but can do both now without being bitten (can do rugs in field now without headcollar!).


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## SusieT (7 December 2010)

Not at all.
she has no performance of any real sort. She is not sellable, so why would any progeny be sellable? She doesn't have  stunning temperment. If nobody wants the mother what would make the progeny any different?
However, she is quite nice to look at, but that's all that's in her favour imo. I think she would benefit more from being a happy hacker /low level RC horse.


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## magic104 (8 December 2010)

I dont agree with Janetgeorge that her temperment makes her unsuitable for the smaller horse market.  Quirky temperment well can you find out what her full brother Cuchini was like?  There are also 2 1/2 sister's one by Slip Anchor in Germany & another 2004 unnamed filly by Samum.  Unless they also have the same quirky temperment then hers would be man made rather then gene related.

It also suggests that there are no 14yos upwards capable of riding a sharper animal & you only have to look at the junior teams to show thats not the case.  Then there are the smaller adults who want a smaller classier horse, like they are breeding in Germany, Holland etc.  If she breeds 14.2hh & under with her offspring being 1/2 tb there are people looking for games ponies.


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## lillith (8 December 2010)

Breed a nice 14hh sport pony and I'll be about ready to buy it when it turns 4?  Quirky TBxpony sounds good to me. 

More on topic she looks like a nice mare though I am no expert.


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## Pipkin (8 December 2010)

Yes i like her

I`d use a connie or sec d


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## lochpearl (8 December 2010)

Honestly? IMO no. She has quirks, you say you don't much like her as a person and traits like that can be passed on to a foal. If she was mine and I had the land etc and wanted a horse for myself in the future and not to resell, I would probably put her to a nice ID, one with a proven temperament. They can make fabulous eventers and would make a decent height.

You have mentioned the BHS responsible breeding, this I agree with totally. Unless you have an outstanding bred, conformation, competition record and personality of a horse, I think in this climate it would be unwise to breed from it (stallion or mare), if however, this is something that you would like to breed for yourself and keep for as 'forever' as you can then, as I said before, a nice ID would cross nicely with her.

Not to say that she isn't a lovely looking mare, and not to offend you, but she isn't 'outstanding' enough in conformation on temperament.


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## volatis (8 December 2010)

As a commercial broodmare based on what you said, then no. As others have said the fact you dont like her as a person, you cant sell her, she has no performance record etc, then I cant see how she will produce saleable foals in what is a very depressed market. There just seem to be too many negatives.


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## JanetGeorge (8 December 2010)

magic104 said:



			It also suggests that there are no 14yos upwards capable of riding a sharper animal & you only have to look at the junior teams to show thats not the case.
		
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No - it doesn't!  But the 14 yos are usually riding ponies/small horses that have been made/produced by someone older!  

I have NO trouble selling 16.1 upwards 3 year olds - just backed and hacked away!  But finding buyers for a 15.2 of the same ilk is much harder.  People buying the smaller horses for teenagers want something with a year or two's schooling under its belt.  Most breeders are NOT in the position to be keeping and schooling on until the horse is ready for a young rider!

I have a friend who buys unbroken or just backed 3 year olds to make 14 - 14.2hh - they are generally cheap as chips.  She has two young daughters who are good little jockeys - and she brings them on for 12 months or more and THEN sells them for a very nice profit.  If she was paying a rider to school them on - there's be no profit!


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## GinnieRedwings (8 December 2010)

I am finding this debate very interesting, because to a large extent it is one I have been having with myself for the last 3 years or so.

I actually agree with both Janetgeorge & Magic104 - in that I think she would produce a great teenager's competition pony with an edge, but that there probably would be no market for it until it was a well-schooled 7 year old with a bit of life behind it... and she would just provide the right refinement and bite to an RID stallion for a great hunter/sports horse - with an outlet on the adult market.

It is, however, the principle of her finding a slot in life as a useful broodmare I wanted to discuss.

Perhaps I need to make myself a bit clearer:

Trinny is NOT unsaleable - in fact I could have sold her several times over. I was just not successful in finding the right home for her. She was VERY EASILY sold by a dealer as a little girl's 13th Birthday present... BUT, I am not in the business of selling just anything to anybody, I am in the business of helping people rehabilitate horses they have problems with, whether it is their own, or the horse's!  and if a horse cannot find a useful slot in life, for whatever reason, I am in favour of responsible euthanasia, which is IMO a much more sensible answer to the number of unwanted horses (the good, easy, straightforward ones are ALWAYS wanted) than the "responsible breeding" line pushed on us by the BHS (i.e. NOT breeding is not EVER going to solve the problem of badly produced/damaged horses, who are no good to anyone - there are too many horses with problems and not enough people willing/able to try and rehabilitate them).

SuzyT, I take your point that, on the face of it "she would benefit more from being a happy hacker /low level RC horse."  *When Trinny is happy*, she is fantastic at being just that. She is handled and ridden and thoroughly enjoyed by beginners and experienced riders alike, a child, a beginner adult man, a happy hacker (actually a happy galloper!), a dressage queen. She NEVER bucks, rears, spins. She loads and travels well. Every year after the barley has been cut, we have races in the stubbles with friends and I pull her up easily in her rubber snaffle without a martingale (I loathe the things), then we walk home on a long rein, relax, no problem.

BUT - she has the demands of a high level competition horse in the body of a happy hacker/RC horse and the brain of, well, a sprint-bred TB! To keep Trinny happy, she has to live out 24/7 with a field shelter, within a herd of at least 3 horses, at least one of them she has to actually like (they have to be in the same field, not on the other side of the fence!), she has to be in continuous hard work (at least 6 times a week, but more is better), she has to be on Regumate all year round, she cannot be fed any grain (fibre only), ideally only one handler, firm but fair, confident and very quiet, no slapping, hitting, showing her who's boss (my ex-farrier tried that approach and was never able to get near her again)... 

Well, I am able to indulge her (well most of the time anyway, she has had to make do with only 1 field companion at times, has had to be in occasionally and it does take 3 pleasure riders to keep her exercised!!!) and therefore keep her happy... but how many people out there are willing/able to do the same? I have had people come and try her, who have looked at me like I was mad for warning them of her "quirks", when they have found her so easy? They wanted to take her home, bring her in at night and stick her on Competition mix (because she is a thoroughbred you know!), turn her out by herself (she can see the others over the fence, so that's ok!), only ride at the week-end in winter and totally negate the time and energy I have spent in working out what WORKS for this horse (not any horse, THIS horse) and makes her the level headed easy riding horse in front of them!   

Would she pass on these issues to a foal? I don't know for certain, but my instinct tells me that she is simply a product of her breeding and her early education in racing. She is just that bit too close to her instincts to feel fully comfortable in human company.

Why do I not like her as a person? That is a very personal thing, actually. Ironically, I find her bland, uninteresting. I like horses that ask questions. She doesn't. She just spends her time trying to stay out of people's way. And more importantly, after 4 years of feeding her every day with the first 2 years being her sole handler and doing HUGE amounts of work with her to improve her confidence etc... she still doesn't trust me. After 3 weeks without work due to the snow and the frozen ground, I walked into her field tonight with dinner, and she jumped out of my way, ears back as if I was going to beat her stupid...


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## Endrete (9 December 2010)

Good grief, sounds exactly like my girl!

Ive known my mare Rita since she was nine when I started working part time for the college she was on loan with.  She was loaned because her owner just couldnt get on with her.  She was ultra defensive, extremely untrusting, perfect to ride by anyone but aloof and needing quiet and confident handlers, regumate all year round as very difficult when in season (not moody but frankly dangerous as she tries to squash people).  

When the college decided to close the owner tried to sell her to one of the students.  At this point poor Rita was so miserable she would just bite and kick.  My farrier happened to be the students farrier too and said she was utterly horrible.  He wasnt keen on doing her for me when he realised just who was tied up waiting(!) but realised that she had been stood quietly on yard munching her hay whilst he did couple of others.  He was surprised enough to comment on the difference in her behaviour and they get along very well now!!

Anyway, the student gave her back and she then ended up going on a series of trials.  The owner gave her to another of the students in the end as couldnt be bothered wth her.  This student couldnt afford to keep her, knew I took on more challenging horses and contacted me to ask if I would like her on loan.  

Went to visit and was shocked at how miserable she looked.  The girl was riding her with two schooling whips as she just couldnt be bothered to go forward - was being ridden like your stereo-typical kick along cob, 'kick, kick, kick, kick, smack, smack....'  

So, she came home with me.  I ended up buying her to stop her going to the meat man (emotional black mail, but thats another story).   She settled well with me straight away, I didnt expect much of her or ask her anything for a long time.  Just plodded about, light schooling until she relaxed about life.  Good as gold for me and older friend.  Had a loud teenage livery and she would try to bite her everytime she walked past her door!  Eventually stopped doing that too.  

Breakthrough came when I had a saddler out.  We were trotting up and down for saddler and I decided I would try and show her off a bit - she caught my excitement and did the most phenomenal extended trot in total self carriage! Really sparkled from then on, I told her how fabulous she was and a true star and she seemed to actually really believe it, like she understood? (you should have seen my saddlers face!! Amazing moment!!) 

So, I had my one little one in June so Rita went on loan to my sis-in-law and used by yard as a school mistress.  Very calm about change in home.  Happily back with me now and even more happily mouching about with my youngsters doing sod all for her carrotts.  Wintering out, no hard feed, just hay and grass and looking fab on it.

Wasnt sure about using her for a broodmare so took her to WBS grading and she was 1st TB broodmare, graded into main stud book with comment of 'just the sort of TB we want'.  

Hopefully some pictures below;
Working with a student at college






At Buckingham Palace - she is on the far right






At her grading!






So, what I am trying to say is that I genuinely think your mare's problems come from being man made - unfortunately (regardless of what the TB industry may say) many many ex racehorses have similiar problems - the above being some of them.  You dont see this in the homebred TB who dont race and are not in that environment at a young age.  It certainly doesnt help if they come out of racing to an inexperienced person who doesnt know how to rehabilite them.  

There are also some horses I just dont like as people either, personality clashes?, and I am sure the horses pick this up and know hence why they may never like you back either!! There was a bargy, distructive cob sent to me for rebacking, just did not click with him, we never liked each other much!  Just one of those things I think!  

None of these would stop me breeding from a mare.  I havent found that they pass these issues on to thier foals but I stand to be corrected!! 

Sorry for going on, just amazed at how similiar our girls sound!

x


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## Toast (9 December 2010)

Yep i would, she looks a nice sort 
x


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## GinnieRedwings (9 December 2010)

Endrete, thank you for sharing your girl's story. I do agree with most of your comments about man-made issues, and I believe that if I had owned her from a weanling, she would have been a very different horse...

HOWEVER - She is a sprint-bred thoroughbred. She is ultimately bred and conditioned to do one thing and one thing only - when someone says GO, run like the clappers! They are bred very close to their instincts to be able to perform this task. Having to think beyond running for their life is stressful to them, which is why sprint-bred ex-racehorses are often not suitable for rehabilitation into the riding horse world. Trinny is actually doing brilliantly, considering.

National Hunt thoroughbreds are a very different kettle of fish - which is why they are great at eventing. They are good at using their brains and thinking quick on their feet.

To get back to the point though, the very breeding that makes her who she is, quick, reactive and her generally good physical attributes means that I think she would still be a useful broodmare, when outcrossed to something sensible, or better still, as a second dam within someone's long term breeding programme - say first cross to an RID, then a good filly crossed to a good eventing stallion.


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## eventrider23 (9 December 2010)

You are right on my thinking Ginnie


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## cundlegreen (9 December 2010)

GinnieRedwings said:



			Endrete, thank you for sharing your girl's story. I do agree with most of your comments about man-made issues, and I believe that if I had owned her from a weanling, she would have been a very different horse...

Totally agree with this.

HOWEVER - She is a sprint-bred thoroughbred. She is ultimately bred and conditioned to do one thing and one thing only - when someone says GO, run like the clappers! They are bred very close to their instincts to be able to perform this task. Having to think beyond running for their life is stressful to them, which is why sprint-bred ex-racehorses are often not suitable for rehabilitation into the riding horse world. Trinny is actually doing brilliantly, considering.

Sorry, I really DON'T agree with this statement. Having had various sprint bred mares and geldings here for breeding and rehabilitation, I've found them very easy animals to handle. They have all been good doers, very laid back under saddle,  are usually more interested in eating than anything else! I was in the TB industry for quite some time, producing foals and yearlings for the sales. We specialised in sprinting bloodlines, which were very commercial, early two year old types. I had several yearlings here, to show at County level before being sold. I found that the showing helped them mentally for their career as racehorses. All the ones I showed, were winners at County level, and all but one were winning racehorses afterwards.
I think that CERTAIN BLOODLINES as in the welsh, are to blame for behaviour traits, in your mares case, Efisio, whilst being a  good racehorse and sire, was  difficult at John Dunlop's yard. I would imagine your mare might have picked up any "quirky" characteristics from him. From how you've described her though, her behaviour has been brought about from her handling early on.
		
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## vicijp (9 December 2010)

I also think the above comment about sprint bred TB's to be be complete bollox.


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## GinnieRedwings (9 December 2010)

Vicijp, thank you so much for bringing this so far knowledgeable, interesting, polite and adult exchange of sometimes contradicting views down to that level...


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## Maesfen (9 December 2010)

Why is it that people that do a bit of plain speaking are accused of bringing the subject down when they've stated their belief as they know it?
I've enjoyed this thread but stayed out of it but I appreciate Vicky's honesty; she does know what she's talking about, she'd make a fortune if she were to write a book about her experiences with thoroughbreds and her way of dealing with all sorts of problems too; you could do a lot worse than listen even if she calls a spade a spade and doesn't dress things up.


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## SusieT (9 December 2010)

sorry, dont really understand why any of what you've said has made her sound more like a broodmare?
Well yes, anything could be sold as a 13yr old birthday present by a dealer, what I meant was no suitable home wished to buy her, which is what you said, unless I'm wrong?


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## vicijp (9 December 2010)

GinnieRedwings said:



			Vicijp, thank you so much for bringing this so far knowledgeable, interesting, polite and adult exchange of sometimes contradicting views down to that level...
		
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Thanks for the vote of confidence Maesfen!
OP - I'm afraid your comment about sprint bred tb's was bollox, so why should I dress it up as anything else. Even 'sprinters' don't spend every day going around flat to the boards, contrary to popular belief.
As for any other view, why post what someone else has already written? TBH, you sound as though you don't want to breed from her anyway. She's a nice enough looking mare, pedigree/race record isn't good enough to breed a racehorse, weaving makes not a jot of difference, 'quirk's fine as long as trainable....


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## tristar (9 December 2010)

she would cross well with my stallion, he is espanole x anglo-arab, it would be stronger in bone yet retain the ability to gallop making it suitable as an eventer perhaps, it would be a complete hotblood,  i have 3 year old out of similar mare who can be a bit high and he's much down to earth yet very athletic at the same time.


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## GinnieRedwings (9 December 2010)

I have no problem with people 1- disagreeing with me and 2- people calling a spade a spade, but I don't quite understand how saying something this strong without at least explaining on what grounds you think my comment is completely wrong actually helps either this debate to progress or to educate me in any way!!! In fact, Maesfen, without a sensible discussion, there is nothing to listen to... 

Cundlegreen made the same point in a very different manner and not only am I prepared to listen to her, but agree with some of the points she has made - not all of it, but some. I have heard Efisio offspring were sharp and there is a possibility that Trinny's picked up from that.

Vicijp, I don't know who you are but I know from your posts on here that you are very knowledgeable about racing TBs and would be interested in knowing whether you also deal with ex-racers within the leisure and sports markets?

My personal observation is that there are comparatively few sprint-bred TBs there, and also that when breeding specifically for sports, no-one looks to breed a full TB with sprinting lines. What those 2 things tell me is that it's probably because they are not that good at it. My experience of having dealt with one or two in my life  is that asked too many questions, they simply, well, crumble... My analysis of the situation, right or wrong, is that they don't cope well with having to make their own decisions. Now, please feel free to disagree with me, but I, for one, would be hugely interested in hearing the whys and wherefores - not just that my opinion is crap!


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## millitiger (10 December 2010)

not much to add but Millie is out of an Inchinor/High Top mare who ran on the flat and won 7 races and about £40k.

she tried hurdling but was absolutely awful so on paper not the best to breed an eventer from!
She was a very sweet, quiet mare who was easy to handle and I am sure would have been fine to ride if she hadn't been a broodmare.

However Millie (by One More Tiger so more NH/sport lines) has bags of jump, moves nicely and certainly has no issue with independent thinking!  2 x 4**** eventers have ridden her and rate her very highly indeed.
she actually stands up to plenty of pressure and questions in her work and is very quick thinking.
Yes she is always thinking 'forward, forward, forward' but I don't see that as a bad thing in an eventer. 

not sure about the sprint/NH difference and not sure where Millie's dam would fit in that as she ran over maximum distance on the flat so perhaps wasn't the speediest horse- she did retire sound after 6 seasons of racing though which was the biggest pull for me.

I have had quite a few ex-racers and racing bred tbs and not yet noticed a difference in NH or flat racing stock- I prefer the big rangy NH types but am actually now trending more towards the neater, sharper ones as they don't seem to have so much trouble co-ordinating limbs and brain


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## sallyf (10 December 2010)

All very interesting but just to add something else to the mix.
I dont like Efisio as he is known for throwing dodgy legs and quirky temperaments .
The quirkyness but not the limbs usually comes from the input of High Top .
On the whole High Top horses have good limbs.
As for sprinters not eventing ,High Top is the sire of both Miners Lamp and Poetic Justice both stallions that have been very successful in producing eventers and showjumpers and in Miners Lamps case good NH horses .
Both stallions are known for there quirkiness but also the ablity they pass on.
Now there is other stuff in the mix with this pedigree some of which i wouldnt choose to breed a jumper from but there is no reason why a sprinter bred on the right type of bloodlines shouldnt jump.
Would i breed from the mare ,not for commercial purposes but possibly yes if i was trying to breed something for myself and could compliment her with the right stallion.


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## RachelFerd (10 December 2010)

I also don't think being sprint bred makes a jot of difference! The majority of the 5f sprinters I have ridden have been some of the easiest most chilled out horses in, and out, of training. A few of the sprinting colts have been a bit over-keen on standing up - but with hindquarters that big and strong i'd want to show off too!! However both these 'characters' were fairly easily convinced out of the habit and were sensible rides - in fact I used to herd up loose horses on the downs on one of them.

I have also just broken in a red clubs filly (red clubs is by red ransom) who has proven to have a very bright outlook, learnt quickly, not phased by anything and moves beautifully too.

I also have my own two - the NH bred mare who only ran twice is slightly neurotic and tends to react before she thinks (although she does jump well), whereas the ex-miler I have (who was in racing for 6 years of his life) is absolutely fabulous, has taken to dressage, SJ and XC quickly and easily and has settled straight away into his normal riding horse routine. 

The difference is that the NH mare is a quirky bugger and the flat horse is more interested in food than anything else.

On the original topic, no I wouldn't breed from her unless intending to keep it as my own. She is nice to look at and while there are few reasons why you shouldn't breed from her, there aren't also many reasons why you WOULD.


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## seabsicuit2 (10 December 2010)

You can't segregate national hunt and sprint bred bloodlines- they are all totally mixed up. In fact most top national hunt stallions were originally top flat- race winning horses. Top hurdlers/chasers can originally be precoucious on the flat at 2.
There is no segregation of the two 'types' of horses in temperment or sporting ability- maybe go into a few flat yards and jump yards where they do them well, and meet the horses, and I guarantee most of them will be really sweet natured.


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## vicijp (10 December 2010)

GinnieRedwings said:



			Vicijp, I don't know who you are but I know from your posts on here that you are very knowledgeable about racing TBs and would be interested in knowing whether you also deal with ex-racers within the leisure and sports markets?
		
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This year alone I sold 20 horses of varying types out of racing. In my experience people prefer the sprinters, they are just like me - compact with a big fat strong ass and like a jump!
At the moment we have 3 good sprinters in the yard, all very different. Yes one is a hard puller, but sensible as you like. One spends most of his time mooching around with 4 feet appox 2 foot off the ground, but is easy as you like to canter. The other you'd put your granny on. The 2 we have that 'race around just wanting to go flat out' are a miler and a 3 miler.
As with all horses, ex racers are very different, some have difficult personalities but early training has the most significant bearing on this - not whether they are 'sprint bred' or otherwise. Of course individual stallions do pass on certain traits which makes their stock recognisable,  but I take each horse on its merits.
There is a lot of crap talked about ex racehorses, the most significant one being about injuries. Sometimes you'd be forgiven for thinking that dreassage horses, eventers and showjumpers spend their entire lives 100% sound. 
With any aspect people should remember the most important thing - they are a horse first and foremost and all horses, from cobs to warmbloods, are different.


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## seabsicuit2 (10 December 2010)

Yes I bought a flat racer from Vicijp this year - had been in training and raced on the flat for 4 years from age 2 to 6 . He came out of racing in February and a few months later in august took a young teenager to their first senior pony club camp. Was a dream and in the kids words 'he was just fantastic and I couldn't have been more pleased with him' he came 2nd at the end of camp competition& was leading all the scardey cat horses ( supposedly proper pony club horses!! ) round all the scary / tricky xc fences at tweseldown. He's now on the pony club showjumping team. 
Just have to give this example of this super little horse because its very unfair for ex racers/ flat racers to all be thought of as unsuitable as sport horses or for kids . This one had one of the best temperaments I've ever seen- you could've put Yr granny on him and he was safe , calm with whatever you asked of him and it never occurred to him to be naughty or say no. 

If he had been a mare, he'd have been more the sort of TB that I wouldve bred from to produce a Childs horse - crossed with a Connie , that would have produced something so biddable and willing.


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## Tnavas (12 December 2010)

She looks a really nice type and put to a Connemara she would produce a really nice type of horse. Check out the market for this type of cross and also the best time to sell the progeny. 

I turned down $10,000  (£6000) for my Clyde x TB filly as a weanling - I like her to much but her value will not return to that until she is broken and schooled. I've tried hangin on to them till older but have found that - if unbbroken at 3 people don't want to pay much as they then have to pay for breaking and if broken still don't want to pay because it hasn't done anything yet.


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## GinnieRedwings (13 December 2010)

vicijp said:



			There is a lot of crap talked about ex racehorses, the most significant one being about injuries. Sometimes you'd be forgiven for thinking that dreassage horses, eventers and showjumpers spend their entire lives 100% sound.
		
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Agreed. My little TB mare is the least accident prone of my motley crew  we are currently nursing a WB filly, who in a split second of madness had crashed through a post and rail fence and earned herself 6 stitches and 3 weeks of box rest!!! 



vicijp said:



			With any aspect people should remember the most important thing - they are a horse first and foremost and all horses, from cobs to warmbloods, are different.
		
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vicijp said:



			As with all horses, ex racers are very different, some have difficult personalities but early training has the most significant bearing on this - not whether they are 'sprint bred' or otherwise.
		
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I'll also agree with that in principle and strongly believe that race management is pretty hard on 2 year olds entering training  hence the amount of wastage produced by the racing industry  not only when young horses are not good enough to make the grade, but also when they just cant hack it. To a certain extent, those that do make it to race more than one or two seasons are probably likely to be more level headed.

But refusing to acknowledge that breeding (and especially so racehorse breeding) is about achieving type (the perfect racing machine, who will win all the races he/she is bred to run, and who will reproduce him/herself into equally talented offspring), actually negates the amount of time/effort/money and hopefully flair/savvy that us breeders of all sorts of horses for all sorts of purposes invest in what we do. Whats the point, if ultimately breeding the perfect sports/race/event horse is only ever going to be a lucky accident? 



seabsicuit2 said:



			Just have to give this example of this super little horse because its very unfair for ex racers/ flat racers to all be thought of as unsuitable as sport horses or for kids . This one had one of the best temperaments I've ever seen- you could've put Yr granny on him and he was safe , calm with whatever you asked of him and it never occurred to him to be naughty or say no.
		
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For every anecdote involving a fantastic little ex-flat racer turned kids pony, I can give you 10 horror stories. Some ex-racers happily become riding horses, many dont. A quick look at the Project Horse Offered horses yields a disproportionate number of sweet but quirky - owner cant cope with quirkiness TBs and early training may very well be mostly to blame, but maybe what they are bred for prevents them from being something they are not bred for. 

I do have my own little anecdote to illustrate my point about flat racers not being well equipped to think for themselves. I lived for very many years in a town called Maison-Laffitte, very much the equivalent of Newmarket  in fact the 2 towns are twinned. My family were very heavily involved in flat racing, one very successful trainer and several jockeys, one of them quite famous. Maison-Laffitte doesnt have a heath,  it has a forest, with miles of finely raked sand gallop tracks everywhere. Some years ago, I was watching the early morning training when a loose horse came galloping down the track. The track was splitting into 2 tracks and I watched as the horse thought right/left  wheres the lad thats supposed to tell me what to do - then crashed into the 150 year old oak tree in the middle  not pretty  

Anyway, to get back to Trinny, who, as I have said, is an absolute poppet if she is happy, heres her this week end, getting ready to go out on a hack by herself


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## Endrete (14 December 2010)

Look at that relaxed, sleepy face, butter wouldnt melt!

(ssssh, dont let my OH hear - Id have her..! Would he notice another bay, I already have three...)


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## vicijp (14 December 2010)

GinnieRedwings said:



			I do have my own little anecdote to illustrate my point about flat racers not being well equipped to think for themselves. I lived for very many years in a town called Maison-Laffitte, very much the equivalent of Newmarket  in fact the 2 towns are twinned. My family were very heavily involved in flat racing, one very successful trainer and several jockeys, one of them quite famous. Maison-Laffitte doesnt have a heath,  it has a forest, with miles of finely raked sand gallop tracks everywhere. Some years ago, I was watching the early morning training when a loose horse came galloping down the track. The track was splitting into 2 tracks and I watched as the horse thought right/left  wheres the lad thats supposed to tell me what to do - then crashed into the 150 year old oak tree in the middle  not pretty
		
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I had something very similar happen to me, but I was still on its back....and it was a point to pointer. Not a 'flat bred'. 
All types of horse do daft things.


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## henryhorn (14 December 2010)

For me the answer would have to be no, because anything that crumbles in a stressful situation isn't going to produce sane trainable horses. 
The weaving wouldn't bother me at all as it's usually stress induced from the way the horse is brought up, but even with an even tempered stallion you could end up with a difficult horse which in today's market would be near impossible to sell. 
I have a clear view that first you need the basics like trainability/soundness unless from an accident then talent. Talent is useless if the horse hasn't the other two, so pretty though your mare is, I wouldn't breed from her. Sorry..


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## tristar (14 December 2010)

the reasons i suggested crossing her with my espanole anglo-arab stallion are as follows, lots of people have said connemara, well espanole or andalusian was used in the developement of the cons. so there is a genetic similarity there, also another dose of tb, plus a small infusion of arab ( polish) the resulting foal would be 62% tb 12 1/2%arab 25% andalusian, in other words a tres sangres, three bloods, it would be a bold brave horse with none of the warmblood nerves, one of the most important qualities could be trainability, listening to the rider and an honest work morale, this horse could have considerable rarity value, i see no probs in selling.
the fact that she competed or not would not concern me if she is honest under saddle, i would test her myself and make my own decision, this would be a horse of top breeding, so if the foal was a filly she would breed on well, also this foal would be almost a second or third generation cross yet cutting out he need to i
wait, a sort of short circuit to the end result in one years breeding.
i see this foal as capable of many jobs sj dressage trec hunting eventing doma vaquera endurance, or simply the horse a lot of people would love to own but can never find when looking for it


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## rossiroo (14 December 2010)

she looks a really nice sort,but if you have one horse that is not suitable for you, you may end up with two horses that are not of any use, also i would be a bit concerned that she had lost one already, sorry to pour cold water on your plans, but having bred from my mare and been very lucky i also concidered every outcome, you never know what you are going to get.


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## deicinmerlyn (14 December 2010)

Honestly? No.  There are far too many homeless, worthless, neglected horses around already.

Some come from mares that have been put in foal because their owners don't know what to do with them.


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## GinnieRedwings (14 December 2010)

deicinmerlyn said:



			Honestly? No.  There are far too many homeless, worthless, neglected horses around already.

Some come from mares that have been put in foal because their owners don't know what to do with them.
		
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...and most come from wastage from appalling producing/training, which I have seen time and again turn a perfectly good animal into a neurotic mess. Did I mention I do "remedial" work on horses? 

I feel this thread may have run its course, simply because it is now too long for people to bother reading it all...

Thank you everyone for replying and sharing your thoughts. As I said, I was interested in the opinion of all the hugely experienced breeders on here... and as I expected, the answer to my question is not at all clear cut.

A few more words...

HH, don't apologise, I asked for opinions and I am grateful to receive them.  

Tristar, thanks for the pitch...

Vicijp - re. your encounter with a tree - Ouch...

Endrete - I'm sure your OH wouldn't notice, she's only little 

And to reassure all of you worrying about me potentially breeding from Trinny "because I don't know what to do with her" (you've obviously not read my previous comments...), I believe that if a horse has no usefulness in life, then it should responsibly be euthanased.


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## tristar (14 December 2010)

totally agree about the wastage and ruination of horses from bad training


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