# Horse nipping when grooming/touching him



## CJess (3 December 2020)

Hi everyone,, I've just got my first horse last saturday and wanted some advice. He had a cut on his leg the next day which he wont let me anywhere near. He wont let me touch any of his legs he sort of warns me off by nipping and does the se when grooming. Is there any ways to help this as he will need his feet picking too but I cant get near his legs. 
Thank you in advance.


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## Starzaan (3 December 2020)

Firstly, congratulations on your first horse!
Secondly, is there someone experienced you can ask to have a look for you? Often horses will test new people, and it may be that you are a little timid with him. If any of mine or any of my liveries decided to ‘not let’ me touch their legs, we would be having a discussion. It could be that it’s very sore and he’s wary, or has had problems in the past so needs someone confident and experienced to work quietly with him to get him picking his legs up for you. 😊


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## CJess (3 December 2020)

Thank you, theres a few people on the yard I just dont want to nag them, shall I just try being a little stricter? How do I stop him doing it? X


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## Keira 8888 (3 December 2020)

Congratulations on your first horse! So exciting!

How big is the cut? Is there any swelling? 

I got my first horse about 6 months ago (I am very inexperienced!!) and he definitely tried to test me in so many ways! 

But he’s an angel now thank goodness!

Why not ask someone on the yard to take a look at the cut and see if they think it could potentially be causing him to be protective.

Don’t worry! I think it’s completely normal to have a tricky first few days/weeks. Just be firm and consistent and he will soon learn his new routine. 

Good luck! 🤗


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## CJess (3 December 2020)

Thank you so much, its just a small pocket I think on his hind leg he wont let me anywhere near it to look or even bathe it, I just try hosing it and squirting hibiscrub he starts to kick after a bit. The vet is common monday to do his vaccinations so asked him to check it too, others on the yard said it will be fine. I'm just a bit overwhelmed I think as things are going wrong already and bit nervous to ride him yet 😂 how long will it be until I'm not as nervous do you think if possible haha?


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## Pearlsasinger (3 December 2020)

Hibiscrub stings!, So that might be one reason why he is wary of having you touch his leg, what is he like with his other legs?  You really need someone very experienced, not just the yard know-it- all to help you to deal with him.  Is there a YO that you could ask?


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## Keira 8888 (3 December 2020)

CJess said:



			Thank you so much, its just a small pocket I think on his hind leg he wont let me anywhere near it to look or even bathe it, I just try hosing it and squirting hibiscrub he starts to kick after a bit. The vet is common monday to do his vaccinations so asked him to check it too, others on the yard said it will be fine. I'm just a bit overwhelmed I think as things are going wrong already and bit nervous to ride him yet 😂 how long will it be until I'm not as nervous do you think if possible haha?
		
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Ohhhhh I know exactly EXACTLY how you feel darling! Please don’t worry. You will get there.

I felt SO overwhelmed when I first got my horse - literally everything felt like a mountain to climb. He refused to pick up his feet, refused to be led, I used to feel so deflated!

I think what helped me was to take each day as it came and if something went well 
I was elated - but when something went wrong (and this happened A LOT!!) I would say to myself - “you have learnt something today so that must be a good thing!”

The other thing is just don’t put too much pressure on yourself - sounds like you are doing a FAB job! 

Keep taking each day as it comes and if you stick with being firm and consistent it will all come together!

It’s such a stressful thing to find yourself solely in charge of a huge animal. But each week it will become easier I promise!

Sometimes it’s 2 steps forward and 5 steps back but just keep going and before you know it it will start to fall into place.

Keira x


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## welshpony216 (3 December 2020)

if is only that one leg, he is kicking and biting because it hurts. Don't use stuff that stings, or he may think the sting will come when ever you go near his legs, and it could turn into a larger problem.


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## AUB (3 December 2020)

When you touch his leg and he lifts it/tries to kick etc, do NOT remove your hand. He finds your touch annoying and when you let go of the leg you reward him by removing the annoying touch. And you don’t want to reward the wrong behaviour (threatening to kick). So you mustn’t remove your hand until he stands still. Then you can remove it and tell him he’s a good boy.


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## Keira 8888 (3 December 2020)

AUB said:



			When you touch his leg and he lifts it/tries to kick etc, do NOT remove your hand. He finds your touch annoying and when you let go of the leg you reward him by removing the annoying touch. And you don’t want to reward the wrong behaviour (threatening to kick). So you mustn’t remove your hand until he stands still. Then you can remove it and tell him he’s a good boy.
		
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This is such good advice! If you are anything like me you will most probably find it quite scarey to do this at first but it REALLY works and if you can power through it you will reap the rewards!


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## CJess (3 December 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Ohhhhh I know exactly EXACTLY how you feel darling! Please don’t worry. You will get there.

I felt SO overwhelmed when I first got my horse - literally everything felt like a mountain to climb. He refused to pick up his feet, refused to be led, I used to feel so deflated!

I think what helped me was to take each day as it came and if something went well
I was elated - but when something went wrong (and this happened A LOT!!) I would say to myself - “you have learnt something today so that must be a good thing!”

The other thing is just don’t put too much pressure on yourself - sounds like you are doing a FAB job!

Keep taking each day as it comes and if you stick with being firm and consistent it will all come together!

It’s such a stressful thing to find yourself solely in charge of a huge animal. But each week it will become easier I promise!

Sometimes it’s 2 steps forward and 5 steps back but just keep going and before you know it it will start to fall into place.

Keira x
		
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Thank you that's honestly made me feel so much better I just panic all the time as it is, like what have I done! Did you do much riding before getting your own? X


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## CJess (3 December 2020)

AUB said:



			When you touch his leg and he lifts it/tries to kick etc, do NOT remove your hand. He finds your touch annoying and when you let go of the leg you reward him by removing the annoying touch. And you don’t want to reward the wrong behaviour (threatening to kick). So you mustn’t remove your hand until he stands still. Then you can remove it and tell him he’s a good boy.
		
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Thank you, I didn't think about that. How should I stop him trying to bite at the same time? Even when grooming? X


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## CJess (3 December 2020)

welshpony216 said:



			if is only that one leg, he is kicking and biting because it hurts. Don't use stuff that stings, or he may think the sting will come when ever you go near his legs, and it could turn into a larger problem.
		
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It's with all of his legs even his body he gets wary with when trying to groom him he will try and nip x


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## Pearlsasinger (3 December 2020)

CJess said:



			It's with all of his legs even his body he gets wary with when trying to groom him he will try and nip x
		
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Did you have him vetted prior to purchase?


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## Quigleyandme (3 December 2020)

Congratulations on your first horse. It can be a daunting as well as exciting experience especially at this time of year. I know some people don’t like clicker training as they claim it just elicits a robotic response but I have had great success with it in a very short period of time both with a needle phobic and a clipper phobic horse. I was also given a horse who found being touched anywhere worrying. He would ripple his skin, sidestep or evade and poo and poo and poo. An efficient brushing and tacking up would result in a barrow load of poo but we became great buddies once he learned I was trustworthy. It is a big deal having a new owner and new surroundings and your horse is hopefully just trying to protect himself until he gets to know you. Just be patient, keep talking to him and don’t let any “expert” on your yard advise slapping or yelling. It just doesn’t work.


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## Keira 8888 (3 December 2020)

CJess said:



			Thank you that's honestly made me feel so much better I just panic all the time as it is, like what have I done! Did you do much riding before getting your own? X
		
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I rode a lot as a girl and when my daughter (she’s 9 and I’m 40!!) showed an interest in horses this year I decided to fulfill my own life long dream and finally buy a horse 💓

Sadly, I completely ballsed up on the purchase and instead of buying a 13h “been there done it” type, I fell in love with a 16.2 horse from Ireland!! Unseen!! (Yep, I’m that stupid!)

Anyway, Prince arrived in June and I quickly realised I was waaaaay in over my head! I was terrified! I completely avoided leading him from his field to the yard as it meant crossing a bridge that terrified him (and me!!) 

I used to resort to bribing him to move step by step by waving an oregano horse treat infront of his nose! Totally disaster! (I totally understand if experienced horse people are shaking their heads in disappointment reading this!!)

Sometimes it would be so dismal that I could neither move him towards the yard OR back to his field!!!!

The reason I’m telling you this is because I want you to know how totally inexperienced I am - BUT! I still made it through to the point I can ride him out alone and he is just perfect.

You need to put those visions of an initial “picture perfect”  horse relationship to the back of your mind for the time being. Sad I know, as that’s all I wanted...

But right now, all you need to concentrate on is making him understand that YOU are in charge and he can feel safe with you as his leader.

HOW you do that....??? Well! That’s the big question... I found it took time, consistency, patience and also hiding your (anger, frustration, misery) from them even when you want to cry and give up!

Focus solely on being the leader. You can do it!! 

But first you need to ensure he’s def not in pain from that cut (which I’m sure he’s not) but it’s great the vet is coming on Monday.

All horses play up with their new owners - they’re just testing to see what they can get away with! Kind of understandable from an animal mentality!

Just keep on going darling - you can do it! 

Feel free to pm me if you need a shoulder to cry on. I totally understand exactly how you feel. 

Keira xx


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## CJess (3 December 2020)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			Did you have him vetted prior to purchase?
		
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I didn't no, he was fine when he first arrived, he has the vet out on Monday for his vaccines so will get them to overlook. X


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## CJess (3 December 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			I rode a lot as a girl and when my daughter (she’s 9 and I’m 40!!) showed an interest in horses this year I decided to fulfill my own life long dream and finally buy a horse 💓

Sadly, I completely ballsed up on the purchase and instead of buying a 13h “been there done it” type, I fell in love with a 16.2 horse from Ireland!! Unseen!! (Yep, I’m that stupid!)

Anyway, Prince arrived in June and I quickly realised I was waaaaay in over my head! I was terrified! I completely avoided leading him from his field to the yard as it meant crossing a bridge that terrified him (and me!!)

I used to resort to bribing him to move step by step by waving an oregano horse treat infront of his nose! Totally disaster! (I totally understand if experienced horse people are shaking their heads in disappointment reading this!!)

Sometimes it would be so dismal that I could neither move him towards the yard OR back to his field!!!!

The reason I’m telling you this is because I want you to know how totally inexperienced I am - BUT! I still made it through to the point I can ride him out alone and he is just perfect.

You need to put those visions of an initial “picture perfect”  horse relationship to the back of your mind for the time being. Sad I know, as that’s all I wanted...

But right now, all you need to concentrate on is making him understand that YOU are in charge and he can feel safe with you as his leader.

HOW you do that....??? Well! That’s the big question... I found it took time, consistency, patience and also hiding your (anger, frustration, misery) from them even when you want to cry and give up!

Focus solely on being the leader. You can do it!!

But first you need to ensure he’s def not in pain from that cut (which I’m sure he’s not) but it’s great the vet is coming on Monday.

All horses play up with their new owners - they’re just testing to see what they can get away with! Kind of understandable from an animal mentality!

Just keep on going darling - you can do it!

Feel free to pm me if you need a shoulder to cry on. I totally understand exactly how you feel.

Keira xx
		
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Thank you so much for sharing it really does help, nice to know I'm not the only one as everyone else is so experienced. I need to be more confident I think and show him I'm in charge. Doesnt help that we got off on the wrong foot by me trying to spray his cut with the hose, think he is seeing how much he can get away with his is a really genuine horse. I'm just nervous about riding as I'm not sure how is with everything. I probably will pm you if that's okay with you as your the only person I've seen that was in the same situation 😂❤


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## CJess (3 December 2020)

Quigleyandme said:



			Congratulations on your first horse. It can be a daunting as well as exciting experience especially at this time of year. I know some people don’t like clicker training as they claim it just elicits a robotic response but I have had great success with it in a very short period of time both with a needle phobic and a clipper phobic horse. I was also given a horse who found being touched anywhere worrying. He would ripple his skin, sidestep or evade and poo and poo and poo. An efficient brushing and tacking up would result in a barrow load of poo but we became great buddies once he learned I was trustworthy. It is a big deal having a new owner and new surroundings and your horse is hopefully just trying to protect himself until he gets to know you. Just be patient, keep talking to him and don’t let any “expert” on your yard advise slapping or yelling. It just doesn’t work.
		
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Thank you, how would you advise showing assertiveness when trying to nip without shouting? I feel like because I dont he thinks he can get away with it all x


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## CJess (3 December 2020)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			Hibiscrub stings!, So that might be one reason why he is wary of having you touch his leg, what is he like with his other legs?  You really need someone very experienced, not just the yard know-it- all to help you to deal with him.  Is there a YO that you could ask?
		
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Hes wary with all off them even grooming his neck? There is but I keep getting 100 different opinions on the yard hard to know which to follow x


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## welshpony216 (3 December 2020)

Instead of shouting, you can say "no" in a low, very firm voice when he threatens you

spend a lot of time on the ground with him 

congratulations on your first horse! I have had horses since I was a child, but I know what feels like. When ever I ride someone else horse, I'm a little scared of messing them up, and so I never really ride.


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## Lois Lame (3 December 2020)

The wound is a sort of pocket? If so, it won't be draining very well.

I would bath it with slightly warm, salty water and get the vet. The vet might trim it a bit so that it can drain fully.

ETA: Agree with not shouting. Use instead a more controlled, calm, steady sort of tone. You're the leader and you know it. People who are out of control, yell.


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## CJess (3 December 2020)

welshpony216 said:



			Instead of shouting, you can say "no" in a low, very firm voice when he threatens you

spend a lot of time on the ground with him

congratulations on your first horse! I have had horses since I was a child, but I know what feels like. When ever I ride someone else horse, I'm a little scared of messing them up, and so I never really ride.
		
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Yeah I will do thank you, it's all a little overwhelming I'm nervous to start riding him,. Gonna start with the lunge this weekend


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## CJess (3 December 2020)

Lois Lame said:



			The wound is a sort of pocket? If so, it won't be draining very well.

I would bath it with slightly warm, salty water and get the vet. The vet might trim it a bit so that it can drain fully.
		
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Yeah the vet will be out on monday hopefully it's okay x


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## Lois Lame (3 December 2020)

Salty water is a good idea in the meantime.

You don't need much salt. Maybe a teaspoon of normal table salt in a litre bottle of water. Add a bit of hot water to disolve the salt.

Pour it slowly over the wound. Allow the horse to lick the wound if he wants to.

Good luck.


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## AUB (4 December 2020)

CJess said:



			Thank you, I didn't think about that. How should I stop him trying to bite at the same time? Even when grooming? X
		
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Have you read about negative reinforcement? It’s what we use when riding. Negative when we’re talking training means to remove something, so it’s not negative is in “bad”. So to make a horse go you put pressure on with your legs and when the horse moves you reward it with taking the pressure away. Or when you push him to move to the side to make room for you - you stop pushing when he moves. (Crashcourse in behaviour and training coming up: Positive reinforcement means adding something, typically a treat, for the behaviour you want to reward. Positive punishment is to add something the horse dislikes, so that would be to smack him over the nose when he tries to bite or to tell him off. Negative punishment is to remove something that the horse would want, typically food. Punishment, both negative and positive, is the least effective way to train a horse). 

So when we’re taking negative reinforcement when it comes to grooming it’s important that you don’t take away the pressure when the horse behaves in a way you don’t want. You must keep the pressure until the horse shows the behaviour you want to reward. Of course you need to stay out of reach so you don’t get bitten, but you need to keep grooming the horse. Then when he stays still/stops threatening to bite you can take the brush and yourself away from the horse - take a step back and remove yourself from his personal space and tell him he’s a good boy. (Also in general: tell him what you’re doing! You might feel stupid but this actually helps you to not seem hesitant in your movements. So: “ok, I’ll pick your feet now”, “I’ll just pop the saddle on you” etc.)

And then, some horses are just very sensitive to groom - my own mare is lovingly called “Bambi” as a nickname, because you need to watch both ends at the same time! She doesn’t like rubs and brushing needs to be with just the right amount of pressure. I accept that she’s that way and stay out of biting reach (she won’t actually bite, just threaten... I think!), but what I don’t do is stop grooming. Because that would be a reward for that behaviour.


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## CJess (4 December 2020)

Lois Lame said:



			Salty water is a good idea in the meantime.

You don't need much salt. Maybe a teaspoon of normal table salt in a litre bottle of water. Add a bit of hot water to disolve the salt.

Pour it slowly over the wound. Allow the horse to lick the wound if he wants to.

Good luck.
		
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He wont let me near his back end at all either moves away or hides his leg under his stomach, he showed me his teeth today when I put water on his other cut. X


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## 9tails (4 December 2020)

When you arrive at the yard, stop and take a few deep breaths.  Breath in deeply through your nose, hold a couple of seconds then out through the mouth.  This will calm you down, because you sound really anxious.  Try not to flutter, horses are incredibly good at reading our body language and far better than we are at reading theirs.  For the timebeing, move your horse around purposefully and don't worry about the legs or grooming off mud until the vet has been to check his injuries.  Use elbows for the horse to bump into, but don't purposefully elbow your horse.  Consequences need to be instantaneous, not even a few seconds after the misdemeanour.  Use a strong "Oi" if necessary, but only once.  If it's all getting too much, leave the stable and do the breathing exercises again until you feel calmer.


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## welshpony216 (4 December 2020)

try clicker training.
when he lets you touch his leg click and give him a treat. You can even break it up even further and have more steps. If you don't have a clicker, use a pen that makes a nice crisp click. I have been extremely successful  with this type of training on several horses, including a percharon mare who kicked and bit very hard.
The horses LOVE it, I bet this is what they all are saying to there pasture friends "all I have to do is let mom touch my leg, and then you know what happens? I GET A TREATTTTT!!!! She is my favorite! Boy I have her trained! Oh man here she comes, PLEASE TOUCH MY LEG!!!" He may seem a tad bit nosey at first, but he should soon understand that he only gets a treat when he lets you touch his leg, and he hears a click.


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## CJess (4 December 2020)

Thank you, I will give it a go see if it helps at all need a lot of patience.


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## CJess (4 December 2020)

9tails said:



			When you arrive at the yard, stop and take a few deep breaths.  Breath in deeply through your nose, hold a couple of seconds then out through the mouth.  This will calm you down, because you sound really anxious.  Try not to flutter, horses are incredibly good at reading our body language and far better than we are at reading theirs.  For the timebeing, move your horse around purposefully and don't worry about the legs or grooming off mud until the vet has been to check his injuries.  Use elbows for the horse to bump into, but don't purposefully elbow your horse.  Consequences need to be instantaneous, not even a few seconds after the misdemeanour.  Use a strong "Oi" if necessary, but only once.  If it's all getting too much, leave the stable and do the breathing exercises again until you feel calmer.
		
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Thank you, what do you mean by using elbows? Is this to move him with? x


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## CJess (4 December 2020)

AUB said:



			Have you read about negative reinforcement? It’s what we use when riding. Negative when we’re talking training means to remove something, so it’s not negative is in “bad”. So to make a horse go you put pressure on with your legs and when the horse moves you reward it with taking the pressure away. Or when you push him to move to the side to make room for you - you stop pushing when he moves. (Crashcourse in behaviour and training coming up: Positive reinforcement means adding something, typically a treat, for the behaviour you want to reward. Positive punishment is to add something the horse dislikes, so that would be to smack him over the nose when he tries to bite or to tell him off. Negative punishment is to remove something that the horse would want, typically food. Punishment, both negative and positive, is the least effective way to train a horse).

So when we’re taking negative reinforcement when it comes to grooming it’s important that you don’t take away the pressure when the horse behaves in a way you don’t want. You must keep the pressure until the horse shows the behaviour you want to reward. Of course you need to stay out of reach so you don’t get bitten, but you need to keep grooming the horse. Then when he stays still/stops threatening to bite you can take the brush and yourself away from the horse - take a step back and remove yourself from his personal space and tell him he’s a good boy. (Also in general: tell him what you’re doing! You might feel stupid but this actually helps you to not seem hesitant in your movements. So: “ok, I’ll pick your feet now”, “I’ll just pop the saddle on you” etc.)

And then, some horses are just very sensitive to groom - my own mare is lovingly called “Bambi” as a nickname, because you need to watch both ends at the same time! She doesn’t like rubs and brushing needs to be with just the right amount of pressure. I accept that she’s that way and stay out of biting reach (she won’t actually bite, just threaten... I think!), but what I don’t do is stop grooming. Because that would be a reward for that behaviour.
		
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Thank you, so when he stops going to bite I take off the pressure as a reward then continue to groom? I'm just unsure off how to pick his feet and stop him biting at the same time 😂x


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## 9tails (4 December 2020)

CJess said:



			Thank you, what do you mean by using elbows? Is this to move him with? x
		
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When he goes to bite, you need his head to connect with your elbow.  You don't move the horse using elbows, just be aware that he may bite and be ready to put up your elbow for him to connect with.


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## CJess (4 December 2020)

Makes more sense 😂thank you x


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## Keira 8888 (4 December 2020)

CJess said:



			Thank you so much for sharing it really does help, nice to know I'm not the only one as everyone else is so experienced. I need to be more confident I think and show him I'm in charge. Doesnt help that we got off on the wrong foot by me trying to spray his cut with the hose, think he is seeing how much he can get away with his is a really genuine horse. I'm just nervous about riding as I'm not sure how is with everything. I probably will pm you if that's okay with you as your the only person I've seen that was in the same situation 😂❤
		
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Of course! Let’s pm each other! Some of my inexperienced tales of woe will raise the hair on the back of your head!!! I promise you it will get easier. Will pm you later xx


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## CJess (4 December 2020)

Keira 8888 said:



			Of course! Let’s pm each other! Some of my inexperienced tales of woe will raise the hair on the back of your head!!! I promise you it will get easier. Will pm you later xx
		
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Aww thank you, I need it 😂x


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## Pmf27 (7 December 2020)

I could be way off base here, but I just read your thread on turning in/out safely and wonder if this could be related?

You said the aggressive mare constantly kicks at your horse, is it possible she has caught him with a kick to his legs that you didn't notice/when you weren't there?


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## caileag (7 December 2020)

CJess said:



			Thank you, so when he stops going to bite I take off the pressure as a reward then continue to groom? I'm just unsure off how to pick his feet and stop him biting at the same time 😂x
		
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My mare isn't great with lifting her feet for picking out and has tried to nip me.  I do it when she has her head collar on and is tethered such that she can't reach my rear end as I am grappling with her feet. Then it's a set routine starting with the off front , off hind and so on. She's getting better every time.


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## Umbongo (8 December 2020)

CJess said:



			Thank you, so when he stops going to bite I take off the pressure as a reward then continue to groom? I'm just unsure off how to pick his feet and stop him biting at the same time 😂x
		
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If he is able to bite you when you are picking up his feet, then I would say he is probably tied up too loose.


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## Red-1 (8 December 2020)

Does your new horse have feathers? I ask, as feathers can mask some seriously painful skin beneath. When I was buying for an organisation, we often both feathered beasts, and some of those would not stand t have their legs even touched (for grooming, washing, picking feet). It wold sometimes take a sedative so we could clip the feathers off and see what was beneath. One horse had skin bad enough that the vet though he had cancerous skin, it was so sore and weeping. It took about 6 months to clear that one up. 

As far as handling goes for how to stay neutral but train the horse, and much as I had an awful experience personally with the man (I would not recommend his clinics for that reason) I do find that Warwick Schiller has some great free videos on YouTube. It was because of his helpful videos that I booked the clinic (mistake, but who knew?).

Also, biting is dangerous, a horse bite can inflict serious injuries. I would pop a muzzle on if you are dealing with the horse alone, to protect your derriere. I did this with one of mine who had ulcers, it wasn't his fault that he was dangerous, he was in pain, but before they were healed, I needed to be safe. Mr Red spent ages laughing and doing a Silence of the Lambs impression


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## ihatework (8 December 2020)

Based on this post and the last post may I suggest you look to move yards very soon - look for an established livery yard that offers part livery, with a yard owner who teaches. It sounds like you need someone take you under their wing and to help you learn about all aspects of horse ownership. It will be a steep learning curve but, in the right environment, a good one.


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