# Please count your horse's blink rate.



## cptrayes (17 April 2014)

I am very worried about how much my horse (who has had two head fractures this year) is blinking.

Could you please count how many times a minute your horse is blinking and let me know?  And also what type of horse they are. My cob is hardly blinking at all. My injured horse is over fifty a minute. Please count when you aren't paying him/her too much attention, because they seem to stop anyway when they have something to focus their attention on.

Thanks.


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## el_Snowflakes (17 April 2014)

50 a min seems like a lot but it's not something I've ever given much thought to! Maybe you could ring your vet & ask what the normal range is?


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## Annagain (17 April 2014)

I'll have a go with my two and report back tonight. To be honest I've never really noticed them blinking at all, so 50bpm (blinks per minute!) does sound excessive. I'll also ask one of the girls at the yard, whose horse is known to have eye problems to do it. 

Hope you work out his problems soon. Is there some sort of scan he could have?


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## LadyGascoyne (17 April 2014)

Found this while looking up things. Not sure if it's if it's useless but I thought it was quite interesting.

http://www.gla.ac.uk/external/EBF/uhcc7.html


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## smellsofhorse (17 April 2014)

I'd say the was excesses.
That's almost 1 a second, a human, horse ir anything would only blink that much to clear their eyes.
Sounds likes some irritation.
I'd call for advice and even a visit


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## Wagtail (17 April 2014)

Cptrayes, has his bashing of his head only occurred since he had the KS operaiton? Or has he done it before? I am going down the field in a mo to do some poo picking and will check on the horses blinking. I have two WB youngsters, two WB adults and two TBs here.


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## magicmoose (17 April 2014)

From one of my old textbooks, 5 to 25 blinks per minute is considered the normal range.


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## cptrayes (17 April 2014)

I have a vet involved, Snowflakes but I want to know what is normal for other horses.


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## cptrayes (17 April 2014)

Magicmoose, Very useful, thank you.


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## cptrayes (17 April 2014)

Wagtail said:



			Cptrayes, has his bashing of his head only occurred since he had the KS operaiton? Or has he done it before? I am going down the field in a mo to do some poo picking and will check on the horses blinking. I have two WB youngsters, two WB adults and two TBs here.
		
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Not only has he always done it, but the vet has told me that he did the left eye brow before I got him more than three years ago.


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## cptrayes (17 April 2014)

smellsofhorse said:



			I'd say the was excesses.
That's almost 1 a second, a human, horse ir anything would only blink that much to clear their eyes.
Sounds likes some irritation.
I'd call for advice and even a visit
		
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It's not irritation from anything external, but it is looking horribly like it's much worse after a day of sunshine


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## cptrayes (17 April 2014)

annagain said:



			I'll have a go with my two and report back tonight. To be honest I've never really noticed them blinking at all, so 50bpm (blinks per minute!) does sound excessive. I'll also ask one of the girls at the yard, whose horse is known to have eye problems to do it. 

Hope you work out his problems soon. Is there some sort of scan he could have?
		
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It's all on other threads   scans are pointless, I'm afraid.


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## cptrayes (17 April 2014)

LadyGascoyne said:



			Found this while looking up things. Not sure if it's if it's useless but I thought it was quite interesting.

http://www.gla.ac.uk/external/EBF/uhcc7.html

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It was an interesting read, thanks.


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## Wagtail (17 April 2014)

Okay, did all 6 horses. Average of 18 times a minute. Range from 11 to 28 times a minute. With youngsters blinking more often than adults.


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## cptrayes (17 April 2014)

Wagtail said:



			Okay, did all 6 horses. Average of 18 times a minute. Range from 11 to 28 times a minute. With youngsters blinking more often than adults.
		
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I've got a problem, haven't I?  Very useful, Wagtail, thank you. He also has a permanent frown whenever his blink rate is high and I am so worried for him that he is living with a migraine 

More counts, please people, I'd like to be absolutely sure he's totally abnormal, so I know I'm not fussing about nothing.


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## Supertrooper (17 April 2014)

Has he been checked for uveitis?


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## cptrayes (17 April 2014)

There's nothing wrong with his eyes physically, this seems to be being caused by multiple blows to the trigeminal nerve junctions around his eyes.


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## Supertrooper (17 April 2014)

Bless him, I wonder if a UV fly mask would help?


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## cptrayes (17 April 2014)

Supertrooper said:



			Bless him, I wonder if a UV fly mask would help?
		
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I am keeping a detailed diary of his depth of frown and his blink rate and the amount of sun and wind (wind is a trigger for humans with trigeminal neuralgia).  Once I have proved what I think is going on, a UV mask will be a good idea in principle, but it worries me that reducing his vision will make him even more likely to hit his head   I can't win with this horse at the moment!


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## YorksG (17 April 2014)

Will count ours when we go out. We have an adult draught horse, an adult appaloosa, a rising 4 Appaloosa and a rising 3 cobx. Is the length of each blink the same, is it a normal bllink or a more exagerated one?


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## palterwell (17 April 2014)

I have got Trigeminal Neuralgia and I have also had a pony who was a photic head shaker. If I were you I would try a UV protection mask.I haven't been able to log in so I couldn't comment before,if wind is causing your horse pain then the mask that you have bought will help but it won't be instant.I can control my pain by using glasses/sunglasses at the moment but it has taken me a long time to get to this stage.My pony wore a UV protection mask whenever she was in the field and was fine when stabled.


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## cptrayes (17 April 2014)

YorksG said:



			Will count ours when we go out. We have an adult draught horse, an adult appaloosa, a rising 4 Appaloosa and a rising 3 cobx. Is the length of each blink the same, is it a normal bllink or a more exagerated one?
		
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YG they are solid blinks, not exaggerated but eye closed at least 3/4 most times. I'd say probably more of a blink than my cob is doing.


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## cptrayes (17 April 2014)

palterwell said:



			I have got Trigeminal Neuralgia and I have also had a pony who was a photic head shaker. If I were you I would try a UV protection mask.I haven't been able to log in so I couldn't comment before,if wind is causing your horse pain then the mask that you have bought will help but it won't be instant.I can control my pain by using glasses/sunglasses at the moment but it has taken me a long time to get to this stage.My pony wore a UV protection mask whenever she was in the field and was fine when stabled.
		
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Ah, my next thread was going to be to ask people with trigeminal neuralgia how much pain they were in and what helps.

I live in the worst possible place for this - high up with sky high UV levels.  All my carpets have a bleached rectangle on them where the light comes in.  My red sofa in the lounge went yellow!


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## palterwell (17 April 2014)

The pain is like the feeling you get when you cut yourself on paper,Doctors describe it as a searing pain. I'm trying to think what helps the most and I think the main thing is warmth and staying out of bright light. I also use magnets,although I know that not everyone would do this.If the pain is very bad I use those wheat bags that you put in the microwave.


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## Coblover63 (17 April 2014)

Forgive me if I'm repeating someone else's suggestion as I have to go to work shortly so I'm in a rush but has he had any cranial osteopathy?  I know that sometimes newborn babies suffer migraines and headaches as their skull bones get more squashed than they are supposed to during birth or don't "reset" as they should and I know several cases where cranial osteopathy has been something of an instant-cure for all the crying and restlessness.....  I just wondered whether it might help your boy if he's in pain. x


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## DuckToller (17 April 2014)

Did blink rate for mine - aged shetland type was 18, warmbloods all between 20-24, Irish bog pony 16.  

Interesting to watch - all blinked several times at once then paused, then a few single blinks with long gaps, then another group of 2-4 blinks.  None of them blinked at a regular rate of say 1 blink per 2 secs.

Not got trigeminal neuralgia (although am now slightly boss-eyed after watching horses blink  ) but get migraines - would agree with some sort of light protection as I can't function without sunglasses if my head is bad.


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## doriangrey (17 April 2014)

I have just counted Lucy's blinks as she was eating her tea ... 17 blinks (very relaxed half-eyed ones even though she was keeping an eye on my other horse) and like someone mentioned above they were irregularly spaced.   Poor Ace, also sounds like a 'tic' like an involuntary neuro response.


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## Greylegs (17 April 2014)

My highland ... About 20 times per minute, if that helps ...


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## Amicus (17 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Ah, my next thread was going to be to ask people with trigeminal neuralgia how much pain they were in and what helps.

I live in the worst possible place for this - high up with sky high UV levels.  All my carpets have a bleached rectangle on them where the light comes in.  My red sofa in the lounge went yellow!
		
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Might it be worth trying a trigeminal nerve block, to see if he's much happier? (Have met head shakers that having improved after nerve blocking have had the nerve semi-permanently knocked out by laser) Although maybe considering the main issue it would just be asking for more trouble - might give you some idea of how much discomfort he's in though.

My Welsh blinked about 16 times a minute.


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## Holly Hocks (17 April 2014)

CPT - my horse went to Glasgow as we believed she had damaged the trigeminal nerve after extensive sinus and tooth surgery.  As it was, there was no sign of damage, but the scans were useful to have if you can have them.


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## cptrayes (17 April 2014)

Holly Hocks said:



			CPT - my horse went to Glasgow as we believed she had damaged the trigeminal nerve after extensive sinus and tooth surgery.  As it was, there was no sign of damage, but the scans were useful to have if you can have them.
		
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Can you tell me if there was any treatment identified by the scan?  My vet tells me that a scan is very unlikely to tell us anything, and that even if it did, it's then very unlikely that what the scan finds can be treated.


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## cptrayes (17 April 2014)

Thanks for your counts everyone. It's pretty clear that one blink every second or two is very unusual. I just wish I knew how much pain he's in. I don't like watching his wrinkled eyebrows, it just screams 'headache' at me 

I'd turn him away for a year and see if it goes away, but he gets laminitis at the drop of a hat. Talk about high maintenance!


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## Regandal (17 April 2014)

I know that in humans they use various drugs for nerve pain, commonly amitriptyline and gabapentin.  Ultimately they can de-nerve, by cutting or zapping a nerve.  Not sure if any of this can transfer to horses.


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## rara007 (17 April 2014)

I did this as part of a study last week- during stress (a weaver weaving) we got up to 32 blinks in 3 mins...otherwise it was down by 12 on average. (including one with recurrent Uveitis leading to partial blindness)


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## cptrayes (17 April 2014)

Regandal said:



			I know that in humans they use various drugs for nerve pain, commonly amitriptyline and gabapentin.  Ultimately they can de-nerve, by cutting or zapping a nerve.  Not sure if any of this can transfer to horses.
		
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From what I've read, it's very patchy in horses as to whether drugs or denerving work.


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## Holly Hocks (17 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Can you tell me if there was any treatment identified by the scan?  My vet tells me that a scan is very unlikely to tell us anything, and that even if it did, it's then very unlikely that what the scan finds can be treated.
		
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As the scan in my case didn't show any damage there was no treatment to be had and since then, her headshaking has reduced significantly (she was a dreadful headshaker after the operations, now it is just more of an occasional tic) so I now think that the headshaking was caused by aggravation to all the tissues inside.  But we did discuss the options if there was damage and they talked of cauterising (I think that was the word) the trigeminal nerve - the risk with this being that the nerve could regenerate.  They also discussed a trial with a steroid but I can't remember the name of it - I will try to remember


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## Holly Hocks (17 April 2014)

Carbemazepine is what it was called, I think.


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## YorksG (17 April 2014)

Couldn't get to count ours this evening, as too gloomy and they were too interested in what we were doing. It sounds to be a tic, which may be pain related, but may not. Would it be possible to do a bute trial and see if it reduces the blinking, if it doesn't then it would point to neurological damage either as a result of the original injury, or maybe even the cause of it.


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## TigerTail (17 April 2014)

Ive got cluster headaches which are linked to trig problems - quite frankly, and I'm sorry this is so blunt as Im sure you are doing everything in your power, no way on earth would I ride this horse, and Id probably PTS. The pain I was in a couple of months ago I did find myself banging my own head to try and alleviate it :/ I could barely see with sunglasses on outside, noise, movement, wind etc all but had me on my knees


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## cptrayes (17 April 2014)

TigerTail said:



			Ive got cluster headaches which are linked to trig problems - quite frankly, and I'm sorry this is so blunt as Im sure you are doing everything in your power, no way on earth would I ride this horse, and Id probably PTS. The pain I was in a couple of months ago I did find myself banging my own head to try and alleviate it :/ I could barely see with sunglasses on outside, noise, movement, wind etc all but had me on my knees 

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This is what I am afraid of. He is laid off waiting for a fracture to heal, so no riding for at least a month yet. But if this continues and I am not able to get a good prognosis of a recovery, I will not let him carry on in pain.  Thank you for sharing your experience TT


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## cptrayes (17 April 2014)

As if everything else was not enough YG, he is also a huge risk for ulcers, which he also gets at the drop of a hat.  That makes a Bute trial risky too.


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## spookypony (17 April 2014)

I have nothing useful to say (too dark to go count blinking just now), so will send lots of (((vibes))) to Ace, who seems to be having a bit of a rough time. I hope you get to the bottom of it, and that it's something that can be treated well.


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## mynutmeg (17 April 2014)

I had a period of trigeminal neuralgia which was caused by tooth issues - it is, without doubt, the worst pain I have ever had, and this is including 2 popped discs with severe sciatica and bilateral ankle fracture/discloations. Medication was very effective (after a week) at controlling the pain while the cause was fixed, however I don't know if that sort of thing is feasable in horses and I have to say I agree with TigerTail. 

Big hugs for both of you and I really hope you get to the bottom of this (also agree with the person who suggested a nerve block as a good diagnositic to see if that helps)


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## mynutmeg (17 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			As if everything else was not enough YG, he is also a huge risk for ulcers, which he also gets at the drop of a hat.  That makes a Bute trial risky too.
		
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My experience of TN was that normal pain killers didn't touch it - in a 24 hour period I was taking maximum dose paracetamol, aspirin, ibuprofen, and oral morphine and that simply wasn't touching it. I ended up on an anti-eplileptic medication that does something to the nerve which made a huge difference however I went around in a drugged stuppor whilst on it. From that I'd say a bute trial probably wouldn't make much, if any difference to that sort of nerve pain.


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## TigerTail (17 April 2014)

Just been milking this over - have you a biig barn he could be in all the time with a companion and adlib soaked hay? Trying to cover light/ lami/ ulcers all at the same
Time and see if there is any improvement? Equine version of me hiding in my room with the blind down and a bucket next to me I guess!


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## cptrayes (17 April 2014)

TigerTail said:



			Just been milking this over - have you a biig barn he could be in all the time with a companion and adlib soaked hay? Trying to cover light/ lami/ ulcers all at the same
Time and see if there is any improvement? Equine version of me hiding in my room with the blind down and a bucket next to me I guess!
		
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Unfortunately, when i tried him in there the other day, he attacked the companion, my placid little cob   another reason I think he's in pain, he's never been a nasty horse before.



He has a dark stone stable and add lib soaked forage.


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## Wagtail (17 April 2014)

I just wish that they could talk. It would save so much suffering. Does he seem happy in himself or does your gut tell you he's in agony?


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## YorksG (17 April 2014)

Behavioural changes, alongside increased agression can, sadly, also be symptomatic of neurological damage. I know that this would be the worst case scenario and what you would least want to be the case, but it does look more and more likely


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## suzi (18 April 2014)

My father suffers from trigeminal neuralgia and describes the pain ad the worst ever. In early suffering before diagnosis he would often beg us to grt him a gun.

It is now more under control (diagnosed 10 years ago) but he has ups and downs.

I think the problem with translating it into equine diagnosis is that there is often no obvious cause. Eg my dad's scans were clear but they operated anyway to try putting a teflon (I think) plate around part of the nerve. This worked for a while - certainly lessened the attacks considerably for 8-12 months - but they have since worsened but not to the same extent as before. 

A lot of the treatment / drugs were trial and error too.....With no rhyme or reason as to what worked and what didn't. 

Do you have any option to be referred toa vet with specialist knowledge? My dad's life was easier once he found the right doctor.


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## cptrayes (18 April 2014)

Wagtail said:



			I just wish that they could talk. It would save so much suffering. Does he seem happy in himself or does your gut tell you he's in agony?
		
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My gut tells me he's a sad horse with a constant headache. His eyes are never at peace, always frowning.


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## cptrayes (18 April 2014)

suzi said:



			My father suffers from trigeminal neuralgia and describes the pain ad the worst ever. In early suffering before diagnosis he would often beg us to grt him a gun.

It is now more under control (diagnosed 10 years ago) but he has ups and downs.

I think the problem with translating it into equine diagnosis is that there is often no obvious cause. Eg my dad's scans were clear but they operated anyway to try putting a teflon (I think) plate around part of the nerve. This worked for a while - certainly lessened the attacks considerably for 8-12 months - but they have since worsened but not to the same extent as before. 

A lot of the treatment / drugs were trial and error too.....With no rhyme or reason as to what worked and what didn't. 

Do you have any option to be referred toa vet with specialist knowledge? My dad's life was easier once he found the right doctor.
		
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I'm so sorry for your father.

I understand that it's exactly the same in horses, very uncertain as to what will help and what won't. I don't feel I can justify the expense of referring him to a specialist when we now know he's been banging his head accidentally for four years, and may cause himself more damage that way at any time. My vet tells me that we would spend a fortune and very likely be no nearer a solution


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## mynutmeg (18 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I'm so sorry for your father.

I understand that it's exactly the same in horses, very uncertain as to what will help and what won't. I don't feel I can justify the expense of referring him to a specialist when we now know he's been banging his head accidentally for four years, and may cause himself more damage that way at any time. My vet tells me that we would spend a fortune and very likely be no nearer a solution 

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I do wonder if there is something neurological going on and that is what causes him to bang his head as well as causing these symptoms. The other possibilitie is that he is in pain and bangs his head almost deliberatly to try and relieve the pain


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## mystiandsunny (18 April 2014)

It sounds very much as if you are coming to a conclusion about what you should do, for the best, for him.


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## palterwell (18 April 2014)

I'm still struggling to log in,I've been thinking about your horse all night and trying to think what helps me with the pain.I have had Trigeminal neuralgia since I was 29  and I'm over 50 now :/ I think that you are probably right that he is bashing his head to try and relieve the pain ,the thing is that when the pain is in your face you just don't know what to do to relieve it.Eating and drinking cause me pain but I forgot to mention that as it is normal for me now.Concussion is another thing which is a trigger.I still think the visor that you have will help him as it will stop the wind in his face.I had an MRI scan but it didn't show anything relevant.


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## Polos Mum (18 April 2014)

Not being judgemental but just a thought - if you think he's in that much pain should you leave it a year to make a decision?  

While a scan might not find something that can be cured, might it find something that would help you make a clear cut decision about whether to leave him as he is?


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## spike123 (18 April 2014)

a horse at my old yard used to suffer excessive blinking when he needed physiotherapy on a trapped nerve. I can't remember which nerve it was that was affected though but we often wondered if it caused him pain. After treatment he would be fine for a few months before it returned. I don't know if you have had a physio out to him but wonder if it's worth a try.


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## cptrayes (18 April 2014)

mynutmeg said:



			I do wonder if there is something neurological going on and that is what causes him to bang his head as well as causing these symptoms. The other possibilitie is that he is in pain and bangs his head almost deliberatly to try and relieve the pain
		
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I wonder the same, now.


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## cptrayes (18 April 2014)

spike123 said:



			a horse at my old yard used to suffer excessive blinking when he needed physiotherapy on a trapped nerve. I can't remember which nerve it was that was affected though but we often wondered if it caused him pain. After treatment he would be fine for a few months before it returned. I don't know if you have had a physio out to him but wonder if it's worth a try.
		
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He has mending fractures on both sides of his face, one of which we know damages the trigeminal nerve. Until those fractures have had time to heal, we don't know what's going on. The vet tested his neck flexibility and it was fine.


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## cptrayes (18 April 2014)

Polos Mum said:



			Not being judgemental but just a thought - if you think he's in that much pain should you leave it a year to make a decision?  

While a scan might not find something that can be cured, might it find something that would help you make a clear cut decision about whether to leave him as he is?
		
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I'm between a rock and a hard place with deciding his future. Time is a great healer and I don't want to act to soon. I already have people accusing me of engineering, or even completely making up,  this situation to hide the fact that I am not 'man enough' to ride him. (None of them have ever met him, or me, but it is still very upsetting) 

 And his symptoms are intermittent. So much for my theory that it is uv triggered, today we have 10/10 sunshine and he is not blinking or frowning unless he is eating.  He put his jaw out of alignment with the first fracture, and it looks like eating is, at least, sore, from the frown. Nevertheless, he's eating a lot so it can't be that bad.

My vet says that a scan is very unlikely to tell us anything.  If I think he is in serious pain I will have him put down, but at the moment, it looks more like a bit of jaw ache and a background headache with some days much worse than others. I wouldn't want someone to shoot me for that yet, I don't think.

But it's impossible to tell when they can't talk 

The fractures should be all healed in a month and I am going to get him professionally backed, to remove any chance that he is upset by me or by memories of this place. If he can't be ridden still, then I will have to decide whether to give him the summer and try again in the autumn, or call it quits on his behalf.

The information I have suggests that trigeminal neuralgia associated with broken bones is unlikely to go away. Also that any increase in exercise will cause a vein that runs directly alongside the nerve in a narrow gap to swell and press on it, potentially causing excruciating pain.  There is a lot hanging on whether he can tolerate being ridden in May.


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## mynutmeg (18 April 2014)

Can I suggest trying the mickel multi bridle when you do start trying to do stuff as it's designed to relive pressure on the trigeminal nerve


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## Spring Feather (18 April 2014)

One of my horses has two skull fractures also so I went out and checked her blink rate; it was approx 20 per minute.  I checked the others in her herd and they were between 12 and 15 per min.


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## cptrayes (18 April 2014)

mynutmeg said:



			Can I suggest trying the mickel multi bridle when you do start trying to do stuff as it's designed to relive pressure on the trigeminal nerve
		
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I will research hiring one immediately MN, that's something I didn't know, though I do know they are very expensive but can be hired.


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## TrasaM (18 April 2014)

spike123 said:



			a horse at my old yard used to suffer excessive blinking when he needed physiotherapy on a trapped nerve. I can't remember which nerve it was that was affected though but we often wondered if it caused him pain. After treatment he would be fine for a few months before it returned. I don't know if you have had a physio out to him but wonder if it's worth a try.
		
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In the Masterson method the horse blinking as you move the hand slowly over a meridian or pressure point indicates that we've located an area of tension. 

So sorry you're having these problems with him CPT..


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## Tobiano (18 April 2014)

Oh CPTrayes, so sorry to read this.  You and your horse are going through the mill aren't you.  Don't have any advice and didn't see this in time to count blinks today but just sending vibes and hugs for both of you x x


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## mjcssjw2 (18 April 2014)

oh dear, don't know about blink rates at all, but I am another that wonders if the fractures are not accidental, I wonder if its like a serious form of head pressing, I know a lady who had very serious health problems and used to hit her leg with a hammer so she had different pain to that which was driving her mad! so pain can do very peculiar things to you.


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## cptrayes (19 April 2014)

mjcssjw2 said:



			oh dear, don't know about blink rates at all, but I am another that wonders if the fractures are not accidental, I wonder if its like a serious form of head pressing, I know a lady who had very serious health problems and used to hit her leg with a hammer so she had different pain to that which was driving her mad! so pain can do very peculiar things to you.
		
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We've seen him do it once and it looked accidental. We're thinking more in terms of a bolt of pain makes him temporarily blind to where walls are. Especially since it's likely to be movement induced as well. He came in very aerated this morning, bullying my little cob, refusing to let him into his stable or go into his own, and blinking at 50+ with a big frown. It was cold overnight and the wind is up a bit, so it's beginning to look as if it's triggered by wind, cold, and raised blood pressure due to movement.

He stood yesterday with his head in my arms while I stroked his face, and he was so gentle and lovely I couldn't help but cry for him. I do wish he could talk and tell me what to do. His eyes are so stressed looking, but would his ears still be forward if he was in that much pain?


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## Polos Mum (19 April 2014)

Is it worth seeing if you can speak to a specialist at one of the university horspitals?  A phone consultation shouldn't be much but you sound so worried by his state that waiting a month to see if he can tolerate being ridden just doesn't feel like the right answer. 

You don't have to take him miles and spend £thousands to get a expert second opinion. 

If he really is in as much pain as you think he might be he could react very badly to being ridden and as it is intermitant will you be confident to ride him if you never get to the bottom of it?


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## Clannad48 (19 April 2014)

I can't do a blink count but following on from the fractures I can offer some human results.  I have fractured my skull on three occasions. The last time it happened I hadn't realised it - long story - about six months later I started having the most horrendous headaches, I was also blinking a lot - I ended up having MRI scans and this is when I found out about the final fracture. It transpired that each time I had fractured my skull (in almost the same place) the bone remodelling had reduced the 'gap/hole' (I cant remember the proper name) that the nerves/muscles went through on the skull/jaw had narrowed.The proper name for it is Temporomandibular Joint Dysfunction. I ended up with the choice of surgery or taking pain relief. I opted for the tablets and like another poster was given Amitriptyline - this worked for me and now I manage only having to take them occasionally.  I was also given some jaw exercises to do.
Massaging the area also helped. If your horse has had several head fractures this may be the case and hopefully will improve with time. Fingers crossed for you.


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## cptrayes (19 April 2014)

Polos Mum said:



			Is it worth seeing if you can speak to a specialist at one of the university horspitals?  A phone consultation shouldn't be much but you sound so worried by his state that waiting a month to see if he can tolerate being ridden just doesn't feel like the right answer. 

You don't have to take him miles and spend £thousands to get a expert second opinion. 

If he really is in as much pain as you think he might be he could react very badly to being ridden and as it is intermitant will you be confident to ride him if you never get to the bottom of it?
		
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PM the vet I am using is extremely experienced and I've known him over twenty years.  I trust him when he says nothing is likely to be found if we investigate further, and also when he says that even if we were to find something, the chances of being able to do anything about it would be extremely slim.  I've done a lot of internet research which backs that up.

From my own experience of trying to ride him once the nerves were coming alive again after the first fracture, he will be unrideable or it will be clear that he should not be being forced to be ridden even if some rodeo rider can stay on him and keep him calm. If it's intermittent, then I'll leave him with the pro long enough, hopefully,  to find that out.

I thought we had new symptoms yesterday but I thought it might just be that he was tired. Now it's clear that when he is in a blinking phase, he's also yawning excessively and licking his lips. These are also signs of trigeminal neuralgia.

I've got no doubt now that's what he's got. The question remaining is whether time can cure it, and how long we should let it try.


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## cptrayes (19 April 2014)

Clannad48 said:



			I can't do a blink count but following on from the fractures I can offer some human results.  I have fractured my skull on three occasions. The last time it happened I hadn't realised it - long story - about six months later I started having the most horrendous headaches, I was also blinking a lot - I ended up having MRI scans and this is when I found out about the final fracture. It transpired that each time I had fractured my skull (in almost the same place) the bone remodelling had reduced the 'gap/hole' (I cant remember the proper name) that the nerves/muscles went through on the skull/jaw had narrowed.The proper name for it is Temporomandibular Joint Dysfunction. I ended up with the choice of surgery or taking pain relief. I opted for the tablets and like another poster was given Amitriptyline - this worked for me and now I manage only having to take them occasionally.  I was also given some jaw exercises to do.
Massaging the area also helped. If your horse has had several head fractures this may be the case and hopefully will improve with time. Fingers crossed for you.
		
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I think the lack of space in the hole the nerve and a vein come through is the theory. Both the fractures also disturbed the TMJ.  On the first, it put his jaw slightly out of alignment, with the second, I can see the lump forming just below his ear as the more obvious damage to his cheek bone also forms additional bone to brace itself.


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## Clodagh (19 April 2014)

I'm sorry, that sounds awful. Poor boy.


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## MrsMozart (19 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			We've seen him do it once and it looked accidental. We're thinking more in terms of a bolt of pain makes him temporarily blind to where walls are. Especially since it's likely to be movement induced as well. He came in very aerated this morning, bullying my little cob, refusing to let him into his stable or go into his own, and blinking at 50+ with a big frown. It was cold overnight and the wind is up a bit, so it's beginning to look as if it's triggered by wind, cold, and raised blood pressure due to movement.

He stood yesterday with his head in my arms while I stroked his face, and he was so gentle and lovely I couldn't help but cry for him. I do wish he could talk and tell me what to do. His eyes are so stressed looking, but would his ears still be forward if he was in that much pain?
		
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Oh hunny. Yes, despite the pain ears ears would be forward if he was finding comfort in the situation, i.e you holding him.


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## hayinamanger (19 April 2014)

I am so sorry this is happening to your poor horse, I really hope you get a breakthrough soon.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (19 April 2014)

Can he not be medicated? At least initially? Not sure if amitriptyline is licensed in horses but there must be an equivalent that can be used and then tapered off to see if he can/ will improve?  
Alongside massage and perhaps specific exercises?


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## cptrayes (19 April 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Can he not be medicated? At least initially? Not sure if amitriptyline is licensed in horses but there must be an equivalent that can be used and then tapered off to see if he can/ will improve?  
Alongside massage and perhaps specific exercises?
		
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I'm not sure what massage can be done with a jaw that is not being done by him eating?  My edt recommended three months eating to sort out the first fracture. He has no mobility problems with his head or neck which would suggest massage was required.

He shouldn't have Bute or steroids as he also gets laminitis and ulcers at the drop of a hat. The blinking day after day is recent, the escalation into yawning was new yesterday, and today he seems to have started to nose flick, which would be an expected progression if there was going to be another. I'll be discussing it with my vet on Tuesday, but trigeminal neuralgia in horses and humans is notoriously difficult to treat.

Since you seem be trying to help, can I take it that you are satisfied that I'm not  making this all up to give me an excuse not to ride him?


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## LadyRascasse (19 April 2014)

I had a horse with trigeminal neuralgia, laser acupuncture helped her immensely, not cheap at £120 a go but her quality of life was so much improved after 3 treatments.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (19 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I'm not sure what massage can be done with a jaw that is not being done by him eating?  My edt recommended three months eating to sort out the first fracture. He has no mobility problems with his head or neck which would suggest massage was required.

He shouldn't have Bute or steroids as he also gets laminitis and ulcers at the drop of a hat. The blinking day after day is recent, the escalation into yawning was new yesterday, and today he seems to have started to nose flick, which would be an expected progression if there was going to be another. I'll be discussing it with my vet on Tuesday, but trigeminal neuralgia in horses and humans is notoriously difficult to treat.

Since you seem be trying to help, can I take it that you are satisfied that I'm not  making this all up to give me an excuse not to ride him?
		
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Notoriously difficult but not impossible so I was simply asking a fairly obvious question.


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## Polos Mum (19 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			PM the vet I am using is extremely experienced and I've known him over twenty years.
		
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Sorry I wasn't questioning your vet at all just wondered as its not a common condition whether there might be someone out there who has more experience with this specific illness that might be able to give you advice / help confirm the diagnosis (give you other symptoms to look for)/ help nderstand how it might progress etc. 
There are some strange specities that people have out there, cluching at straws for you but you never know?


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## cptrayes (19 April 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Notoriously difficult but not impossible so I was simply asking a fairly obvious question.
		
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A question which I took at face value and answered.

Are you going to answer mine?


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## cptrayes (19 April 2014)

LadyRascasse said:



			I had a horse with trigeminal neuralgia, laser acupuncture helped her immensely, not cheap at £120 a go but her quality of life was so much improved after 3 treatments.
		
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That's good to know, thank you. Was your horse rideable before she got the treatment?


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## cptrayes (19 April 2014)

Polos Mum said:



			Sorry I wasn't questioning your vet at all just wondered as its not a common condition whether there might be someone out there who has more experience with this specific illness that might be able to give you advice / help confirm the diagnosis (give you other symptoms to look for)/ help nderstand how it might progress etc. 
There are some strange specities that people have out there, cluching at straws for you but you never know?
		
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Leahurst are my local specialists PM.  They are renowned for running up bills of many thousands on trigeminal nerve  headshakers  and still being unable to help them.  If he was uv triggered it might be easier to control, but it looks way more complicated than that 

No need to apologise, by the way.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (19 April 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Can he not be medicated? At least initially? Not sure if amitriptyline is licensed in horses but there must be an equivalent that can be used and then tapered off to see if he can/ will improve?  
Alongside massage and perhaps specific exercises?
		
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CPT you say your horse cant have bute or steroids . Amitriptyline is neither an anti-inflammatory nor a steroid its a nerve pain drug so if there was something similar for horses it might not give the side effects of bute or steroids. Also you said about micklem bridles being expensive, not so much, only 100 pounds last time I looked (a year or two maybe). Riding in a headcollar with a bit attached would also avoid the nerve I think. Good luck anyway whatever you decide to do.


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## charliejet (19 April 2014)

cptrayes would you mind if i PMd you about my horse that has TMJ pain and after reading this thread I counted her blink rate tonight?


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## mle22 (19 April 2014)

I had trigeminal neuralgia and agree it was the worst pain ever - mine was cured in two sessions of acupuncture - at the stage doctor was saying only thing they could do was cut the nerve - it was like a miracle! I would strongly suggest trying acupuncture if at all possible. x


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## cptrayes (19 April 2014)

charliejet said:



			cptrayes would you mind if i PMd you about my horse that has TMJ pain and after reading this thread I counted her blink rate tonight?
		
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I'm happy to help anyone cj, pm away.


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## cptrayes (19 April 2014)

mle22 said:



			I had trigeminal neuralgia and agree it was the worst pain ever - mine was cured in two sessions of acupuncture - at the stage doctor was saying only thing they could do was cut the nerve - it was like a miracle! I would strongly suggest trying acupuncture if at all possible. x
		
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Thank you, very interesting. Was there a cause identified for your problem. I wonder if it's different with fractures?


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## cptrayes (19 April 2014)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			CPT you say your horse cant have bute or steroids . Amitriptyline is neither an anti-inflammatory nor a steroid its a nerve pain drug so if there was something similar for horses it might not give the side effects of bute or steroids. Also you said about micklem bridles being expensive, not so much, only 100 pounds last time I looked (a year or two maybe). Riding in a headcollar with a bit attached would also avoid the nerve I think. Good luck anyway whatever you decide to do.
		
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Amitriptyline is not a painkiller as such, is a tricyclic antidepressant. I have no idea if it's available for horses and I will be talking to my vet on Tuesday.

The cost of a micklem is not an issue, as they can be hired.  I actually can't see how it would be any different to use a padded slip head and a bit, so I'm likely to try that first.


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## YorksG (19 April 2014)

I hadn't thought about accupuncture ( I don't know why not, used it on my mare with neck pain and it worked a treat!) It may help you to know if it is face pain or something more deep seated, well worth a try. We know/have used a vet who is also an accupuncturist, pm me if you want his details.


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## charliejet (19 April 2014)

Thank you, have sent a pm with a video link, I think!!
 Let me know if it doesnt come through my old laptop is not working very well these days....


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## mynutmeg (19 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Amitriptyline is not a painkiller as such, is a tricyclic antidepressant. I have no idea if it's available for horses and I will be talking to my vet on Tuesday.

The cost of a micklem is not an issue, as they can be hired.  I actually can't see how it would be any different to use a padded slip head and a bit, so I'm likely to try that first.
		
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The mickelm apparently works because it doesn't have any straps over the trigeminal nerve - something to do with the placement of the straps under the jaw etc means there is no pressure on the nerve.


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## LadyRascasse (19 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			That's good to know, thank you. Was your horse rideable before she got the treatment?
		
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She came off of loan in the October in poor condition with bad mud fever, we did some light hacking but stopped as her legs were in a bad way. Around the January we brought her back into work and she was "ok" she started headshaking in the March, the first vet said it was purely behavioral and to ride her through it. She put me in A+E, we did one lap of walk round the school, she exploded went up vertical then went into a bucking frenzy I hit the deck head first from about 12ft. She didn't stop bucking when she got rid of me either poor girl  Second vet diagnosed and referred to the third vet for treatment. I never rode her again after treatment either sadly, the treatment helped the symptoms but couldn't cure the her problem (compressed vertebra in her neck) I don't know what you know about the trigeminal nerve but it runs inside the vertebra so as she had a compression there was nothing we could do for her, she had given up on life and slipped away so peacefully like it was what she had been waiting for :'( We tried for nearly a year to save her to be honest that was probably to long but I wanted to try everything I could for her.


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## LadyRascasse (19 April 2014)

mynutmeg said:



			The mickelm apparently works because it doesn't have any straps over the trigeminal nerve - something to do with the placement of the straps under the jaw etc means there is no pressure on the nerve.
		
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Tried it on my mare with Trigeminal neuragia and it made no differences to her.


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## mjcssjw2 (19 April 2014)

Don't know if this is of any use, but when my mare fractured her skull, she was at first very sensitive to the slightest breeze on her face, she really cringed about it and would quickly move her head out of the breeze, this did resolve well with time, but I am sure she found it very painful.


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## cptrayes (19 April 2014)

YorksG said:



			I hadn't thought about accupuncture ( I don't know why not, used it on my mare with neck pain and it worked a treat!) It may help you to know if it is face pain or something more deep seated, well worth a try. We know/have used a vet who is also an accupuncturist, pm me if you want his details.
		
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Thanks YG, luckily there is a vet who does acupuncture based in Chester, so close enough to take him to her.


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## cptrayes (19 April 2014)

mjcssjw2 said:



			Don't know if this is of any use, but when my mare fractured her skull, she was at first very sensitive to the slightest breeze on her face, she really cringed about it and would quickly move her head out of the breeze, this did resolve well with time, but I am sure she found it very painful.
		
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VERY useful, thanks. Wind seems to be the worst at the moment.  Can I ask how long it took?


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## YorksG (19 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Thanks YG, luckily there is a vet who does acupuncture based in Chester, so close enough to take him to her.
		
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That is handier than the one I know  Hope it works


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## LadyRascasse (19 April 2014)

CPTrayes I have videos of my mare if you wanted to compare to your own horse


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## cptrayes (19 April 2014)

LadyRascasse said:



			CPTrayes I have videos of my mare if you wanted to compare to your own horse
		
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Yes please if they are on YouTube. I've got wet string for a broadband line so receiving them direct is difficult, but if you can't get them on YouTube let me know and I'll see what I can do on someone else's hub.


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## zigzag (19 April 2014)

What part of his jaw did he fracture (can't remember of-hand). Only he may have a deep rooted abscess that doesn't show from the outside.  A friends horse fracture the right hand side of her face, x rays confirmed it, but  what it didn't show was that one of the back teeth had moved ever so slightly and infection got in, which was shown by a second x-ray.  When was his last x-ray?


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## cptrayes (19 April 2014)

zigzag said:



			What part of his jaw did he fracture (can't remember of-hand). Only he may have a deep rooted abscess that doesn't show from the outside.  A friends horse fracture the right hand side of her face, x rays confirmed it, but  what it didn't show was that one of the back teeth had moved ever so slightly and infection got in, which was shown by a second x-ray.  When was his last x-ray?
		
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He didn't fracture his jaw. He fractured the top of his left hand eye socket at some time before I bought him in December 2011. He fractured the top of his right eye socket in January, and his left cheekbone just below the eye about two weeks ago. He has not been x rayed because my vet's advice is that there is no point, nothing can be done except to allow the fractures time to heal.


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## Fun Times (19 April 2014)

Really feel for you CPT as this sounds like such a difficult condition to diagnose and treat and you must be terribly worried. I havent any direct experience but would say that accupuncture has held me personally with a range of muscular and neurological conditions so may well be worth trying. Amytriptiline also certainly helped me but not sure if licensed for use in horses. It also made me very slow and dopey so perhaps not ideal for an equine. I hope he startsto show some improvement soon.


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## mjcssjw2 (19 April 2014)

it wasn't very long only a few weeks, but I kept her in, she fell about 10ft onto her head, she had 5 bone fragments removed from her left eye socket and knocked a  large bone flap out of the the area just to the middle of her forehead - actually it was still there and hinged, but first vet missed it - my vet found it when he xrayed her. My vet was very concerned about her eyesight - she was ok on eyesight front - but think you have ruled eyesight problems out.


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## zigzag (19 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			He didn't fracture his jaw. He fractured the top of his left hand eye socket at some time before I bought him in December 2011. He fractured the top of his right eye socket in January, and his left cheekbone just below the eye about two weeks ago. He has not been x rayed because my vet's advice is that there is no point, nothing can be done except to allow the fractures time to heal.
		
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I would ask for xrays, you don't know exactly what he has done, he could have a chip of bone digging in somewhere


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## cptrayes (19 April 2014)

mjcssjw2 said:



			it wasn't very long only a few weeks, but I kept her in, she fell about 10ft onto her head, she had 5 bone fragments removed from her left eye socket and knocked a  large bone flap out of the the area just to the middle of her forehead - actually it was still there and hinged, but first vet missed it - my vet found it when he xrayed her. My vet was very concerned about her eyesight - she was ok on eyesight front - but think you have ruled eyesight problems out.
		
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What did she do - jump into a quarry???  Very interesting about timing, thank you. We have a month more of rest to go, so anything could happen in that time, I guess.  I certainly won't be having him ridden while he's blinking and frowning like he is at the moment.


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## LadyRascasse (20 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Yes please if they are on YouTube. I've got wet string for a broadband line so receiving them direct is difficult, but if you can't get them on YouTube let me know and I'll see what I can do on someone else's hub.
		
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I have them on facebook, so I will pm you a link to them


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## zigzag (20 April 2014)

I was thinking of your horse last night, How did the vet come to a diagnosis of a fracture? and what were his/her reasons for not doing an x-ray?


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## TheMule (20 April 2014)

Had a horse who suddenly went wild at an event, it turned out he'd perforated his ear drum but he had associated facial nerve damage too. Over the next few months his symptoms included noise sensitivity, irregular head shaking, sweating in small patches on his face and neck and hyper sensitivity around the face. Acupuncture helped to relieve the symptoms for short periods of time. He was seen by an ENT specialist, had x-rays to confirm no other reason but eventually was PTS as so uncomfortable


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## cptrayes (20 April 2014)

zigzag said:



			I was thinking of your horse last night, How did the vet come to a diagnosis of a fracture? and what were his/her reasons for not doing an x-ray?
		
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This has been done to death on my other thread if you would like to read it there. There is a contribution by a vet on there too.


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## cptrayes (20 April 2014)

TheMule said:



			Had a horse who suddenly went wild at an event, it turned out he'd perforated his ear drum but he had associated facial nerve damage too. Over the next few months his symptoms included noise sensitivity, irregular head shaking, sweating in small patches on his face and neck and hyper sensitivity around the face. Acupuncture helped to relieve the symptoms for short periods of time. He was seen by an ENT specialist, had x-rays to confirm no other reason but eventually was PTS as so uncomfortable
		
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Thanks for this, all information is useful, however unhappy. Sorry about your horse


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## zigzag (20 April 2014)

I read one of your threads. Couldn't find anything on why the vet wouldn't x-ray .. Still think an x-ray of his head would be good to see actually what is going on with the fractures. 

Otherwise link the thread that explains why the vet won't x-ray


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## cptrayes (20 April 2014)

zigzag said:



			Otherwise link the thread that explains why the vet won't x-ray
		
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What did your last slave die of ?


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## mle22 (20 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Thank you, very interesting. Was there a cause identified for your problem. I wonder if it's different with fractures?
		
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I had broken and dislocated my jaw about 15 years previously. The acupuncturist told me the problem was 'structural' - my jaw is still slightly crooked and I assume the nerve was getting trapped.


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## zigzag (20 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			What did your last slave die of ?  

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Well considering I went through four pages of your previous posts and couldn't find anything regarding a vet, thought it would be better if you pointed me in the right direction, as I can't believe the poor horse hasn't had an x-ray, how does the vet know if any fragments of bone are loose etc?


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## cptrayes (20 April 2014)

zigzag said:



			Well considering I went through four pages of your previous posts and couldn't find anything regarding a vet, thought it would be better if you pointed me in the right direction, as I can't believe the poor horse hasn't had an x-ray, how does the vet know if any fragments of bone are loose etc?
		
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Have you never heard the word please?  I don't take orders like you tried to give me from anonymous internet posters, sorry.

I have discussed x rays elsewhere. I am not interested in discussing them any further, thank you.


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## DiNozzo (20 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Have you never heard the word please?
		
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Really?

Your bringing up manners to avoid answering a perfectly reasonable question in regard to your horse's health and potential quality of life?


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## cptrayes (20 April 2014)

mle22 said:



			I had broken and dislocated my jaw about 15 years previously. The acupuncturist told me the problem was 'structural' - my jaw is still slightly crooked and I assume the nerve was getting trapped.
		
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Did the acupuncture provide permanent relief?


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## cptrayes (20 April 2014)

DiNozzo said:



			Really?

Your bringing up manners to avoid answering a perfectly reasonable question in regard to your horse's health and potential quality of life?
		
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You are total strangers on the internet. I have no obligation to answer any of your questions.

I have not avoided answering, the answers are on another thread. I do not wish to discuss x rays again, and you have no right to demand that I do.


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## DiNozzo (20 April 2014)

Well, then, here's a question that isn't about xrays.

How does your vet, or you for that matter, know that there is not a loose chip or fragment causing his frowning/headaches, or some of his pain more generally?

Bone chips can migrate, so whilst the fracture may heal the bone chip will cause pain for as long as it takes to dissolve. This can cause excessive pain- it did for me when I chipped a bit off my shoulder blade and the bone fragment migrated into my spinal fluid...

But how will you know that without xrays/scans? 

You are asking for help to make his life better, people are trying to help you by advising routes you clearly don't want to go down, even if they might help your horse.


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## cptrayes (20 April 2014)

Which part of 'I do not wish to discuss xrays with strangers on the internet any more than I have already done' are you finding difficult to understand?


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## mle22 (20 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Did the acupuncture provide permanent relief?
		
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yes - touch wood - I've never had a problem since


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## quirky (20 April 2014)

My horse who had a fractured eye socket did not have x-rays initially.

He had his complete head shaved, not a good look, and was ultrasound scanned. This is because the bone chip can cause soft tissue or vein damage.

His fracture was kind of incidental, nothing they could do about, due to location. The main concern was the side effects of the fracture.

So, I can kind of see why cptrayes horse hasn't had x-rays.....if he hasn't, I haven't followed to see is he has it hasn't.


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## zigzag (21 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Which part of 'I do not wish to discuss xrays with strangers on the internet any more than I have already done' are you finding difficult to understand?
		
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Wow you are stubborn and rude, You ask for advice and then won't even give answers to valid questions, exactly like the previous business over haylage where you were wrong... 

I'm starting to think you are just looking for an excuse to shoot the poor bloody horse like other posters are suggesting


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## cptrayes (21 April 2014)

zigzag said:



			Wow you are stubborn and rude, You ask for advice and then won't even give answers to valid questions, exactly like the previous business over haylage where you were wrong... 

I'm starting to think you are just looking for an excuse to shoot the poor bloody horse like other posters are suggesting
		
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I did not ask for advice. I asked for people to count their horses blink rate for me. The clue is in the title of the thread.

Your suggestion is exceptionally offensive. The horse is in the care of a vet. Who do you think you are, a stranger on the internet, to question me about his care?


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## cptrayes (21 April 2014)

........


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## zigzag (21 April 2014)

I asked about x-rays, as bone chips etc can cause issues. You said vet has said no need for x rays......  and you were not willing to discuss  x-rays as they had been done to death on another thread.. 
Well I have just read back on all your previous posts, the only mention is about CAT scans and Brain EEG, which won't be done because they are expensive (fair enough) but no mention of an x-ray at all.  
How do you know there is no bone fragment loose or pressing anywhere that is causing the poor horses problems. 

And I will question you about  his care, because you, a stranger, put YOUR question up on the internet, so you are going to get comments.


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## cptrayes (21 April 2014)

zigzag said:



			I asked about x-rays, as bone chips etc can cause issues. You said vet has said no need for x rays......  and you were not willing to discuss  x-rays as they had been done to death on another thread.. 
Well I have just read back on all your previous posts, the only mention is about CAT scans and Brain EEG, which won't be done because they are expensive (fair enough) but no mention of an x-ray at all.  
How do you know there is no bone fragment loose or pressing anywhere that is causing the poor horses problems. 

And I will question you about  his care, because you, a stranger, put YOUR question up on the internet, so you are going to get comments.
		
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You can write what you like, it's thankfully still a free world in this country. I would even defend your right to be as offensive as you have been.

A little clue for you. You are looking at the wrong thread. X rays have been discussed and I do not wish to discuss them any more.

Can you PM  me your name please, so that I know who I'm talking to here?


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## zigzag (21 April 2014)

I did a search on your previous posts, it bought up 20 pages, having skimmed through all 20 pages I did not find reference to a post about x-rays and why the vet felt they were unnecessary, so numerous threads were read not just the one where I stated about CAT scans etc.


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## Patterdale (21 April 2014)

I can't understand why this horse wouldn't have an x ray and be scanned just to rule out different/migrating/worsening problems?
Or why asking this seems to make you so angry?

I hope the horse gets the diagnosis and treatment it needs.


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## cptrayes (21 April 2014)

Patterdale said:



			I can't understand why this horse wouldn't have an x ray and be scanned just to rule out different/migrating/worsening problems?
Or why asking this seems to make you so angry?

I hope the horse gets the diagnosis and treatment it needs.
		
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I am not angry.

Though I think I have every right to be, having been accused of looking for reasons to put down a horse in my care because they think I'm  afraid to ride him when other people think they could, don't you?  Can you imagine how that feels if you are actually trying to do the right thing for the poor creature?

I am not going to subject this multiple self harming horse to another operation, particularly not one with a very, very uncertain outcome. There is, therefore, no point in xrays, or they would have been taken already.


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## cptrayes (21 April 2014)

zigzag said:



			I did a search on your previous posts, it bought up 20 pages, having skimmed through all 20 pages I did not find reference to a post about x-rays and why the vet felt they were unnecessary, so numerous threads were read not just the one where I stated about CAT scans etc.
		
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Well one of the replies was actually from a vet supporting the decision, so you're looking in the wrong threads.


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## DiNozzo (21 April 2014)

quirky said:



			My horse who had a fractured eye socket did not have x-rays initially.

He had his complete head shaved, not a good look, and was ultrasound scanned. This is because the bone chip can cause soft tissue or vein damage.

His fracture was kind of incidental, nothing they could do about, due to location. The main concern was the side effects of the fracture.

So, I can kind of see why cptrayes horse hasn't had x-rays.....if he hasn't, I haven't followed to see is he has it hasn't.
		
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But he was ultrasound scanned... 




			Well one of the replies was actually from a vet supporting the decision, so you're looking in the wrong threads.
		
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			Who do you think you are, a stranger on the internet, to question me about his care?
		
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There's a fair contradiction there petal?

You say people on the internet who haven't seen your horse are not allowed to question you, but a vet on the internet, who has as much knowledge as the rest of us about your horse, is? The vet does not know any more or less than the people commenting here.


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## magicmoose (21 April 2014)

DiNozzo said:



			You say people on the internet who haven't seen your horse are not allowed to question you, but a vet on the internet, who has as much knowledge as the rest of us about your horse, is? The vet does not know any more or less than the people commenting here.
		
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OwnedbyJoe said:



			I may be very out of date but when I went through vet school it was pretty clear that there is little to be done for most of the bony structures of the skull when they are damaged apart from time... You can drill holes in sinuses but that's about the extent of it. You can't actively treat nerve damage, and you can't get in there and surgically repair a fractured TMJ/zygomatic arch.
So, I'd have to agree with *your *vet and EDT when they say that an x ray won't make any difference to the treatment. If it's soft tissue damage/nerve damage, rest and anti inflammatories. If it's fractured, rest and anti inflammatories.. Just for longer! Recovery MAY be quicker if it's just soft tissue, but three months will allow fractures to repair (if they're going to) as well.
Sorry to hijack, but I thought that might help clarify things for others who have weighed in here.
And yes, brain tumours are incredibly rare (and untreatable if present, so why worry yourself?).
		
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But perhaps the vet knows a little more about what can and can't be done to treat a head injury?


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## zigzag (21 April 2014)

After an hour of searching yet again, I found the thread http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?654749-Update-to-TMJ-and-bitless-bridle-threads 

So it was a dentist that diagnosed the fracture, you also had splinters of bone coming out of his eye socket... A vet you never met on the internet (oh the irony  ) agrees with you.  

I'm sorry but this horse deserves an x-ray just to check he has no floating bits of bone causing trouble.  If the outcome of the x-rays means that it is an OP that you won't put him through, then least you can put the boor ****** out of his misery (and you are the one who stated that he looks miserable and if he has a constant headache)


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## YorksG (21 April 2014)

My understanding is that the horse is receiving appropriate vetinary care and supporting care by  the owner. I see no requirement for posters on this forum to demand that they be given links to other threads, or to demand that the OP's vet do x y or z. People have offered ideas which may help the owner and the horse, but they may not, none of us  can demand that anyone must do as we say, none of us could even if we knew the OP in the real world! There is no reason for the rudeness shown to the OP.


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## DiNozzo (21 April 2014)

magicmoose said:



			But perhaps the vet knows a little more about what can and can't be done to treat a head injury?
		
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There was no mention of bone chips... Which iis what zigzag and I were referring to needing an xray/scans to diagnose. Bone chips can be removed via surgery. CPtrayes has said she won't put the horse through more surgery- which is fine- but it means months more pain before being resolved, as it takes so much longer for the bone chip to dissolve than for most fractures to heal- of course that depends on the size and location of the bone chip.

CPTrayes has a time limit on his healing, I think, unless I've read this wrong, but if a bone chip was found, the reasonable length of healing time for the fractures to heal could be extended to allow the bone chip to dissolve.


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## cptrayes (21 April 2014)

DiNozzo said:



			But he was ultrasound scanned
		
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Yes, and to quote quirky, the horse was put down after six further years of being 'unhappy in his own skin', while they tried to do what other people expected of them to get him right.


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## cptrayes (21 April 2014)

zigzag said:



			After an hour of searching yet again, I found the thread http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?654749-Update-to-TMJ-and-bitless-bridle-threads 

So it was a dentist that diagnosed the fracture, you also had splinters of bone coming out of his eye socket... A vet you never met on the internet (oh the irony  ) agrees with you.  [
		
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No,  the dentist refused to gag him because of tmj displacement. 


Well pardon me if I am more inclined to listen to a vet, particularly one whose opinionn agrees with the one who's actually seen the horse, than to  an accounts clerk or a fireman or a stay at home mum, or whatever you are 




			I'm sorry but this horse deserves an x-ray just to check he has no floating bits of bone causing trouble.  If the outcome of the x-rays means that it is an OP that you won't put him through, then least you can put the boor ****** out of his misery (and you are the one who stated that he looks miserable and if he has a constant headache)
		
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He's had a headache for a few days. Shall I come and shoot you the next time you have a headache for a few days?

He's much happier today and the weather is much warmer. From how my own fractures feel in cold weather, I think this is logical.

You seem unaware that left to their to their own devices, most bone chips will either rejoin, if there is a blood supply, or reabsorb if not? Particularly if the area of bone broken is static, like an eye socket or a cheekbone.


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## Tiddlypom (21 April 2014)

YorksG said:



			There is no reason for the rudeness shown to the OP.
		
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I have a lot of sympathy for the OP, but she really hasn't helped herself with some of her prickly replies to posters who are new to this case.

I have been following her posts for a while, but even I can't remember all the details of his treatment so far, without going back and re reading every previous thread. 

It costs nothing but time to put someone straight, even if it means covering the same ground again.


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## amandap (21 April 2014)

This thread has become distasteful to read. Some thoughts are best kept to yourself on forums!


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## cptrayes (21 April 2014)

Tiddlypom said:



			I have a lot of sympathy for the OP, but she really hasn't helped herself with some of her prickly replies to posters who are new to this case.

I have been following her posts for a while, but even I can't remember all the details of his treatment so far, without going back and re reading every previous thread. 

It costs nothing but time to put someone straight, even if it means covering the same ground again.
		
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But I am not asking anyone for their advice on x rays. Why do you feel there is any requirement for me to give any more detail. To satisfy people's curiosity?

Do you think it is acceptable to accuse me of looking for an excuse to put the horse down?

That seems to me to be an awful lot worse than not wanting to carry on writing about things that will not help me or the horse, no?

Where is your condemnation of that rudeness, and of the Princess's refusal to say that she does not think that I am making all this up to give me an excuse not to ride him. Nice, eh?

Can you even imagine how it feels to be on the receiving end of that, when you are desperately trying to do the right thing by your horse?


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## quirky (21 April 2014)

DiNozzo said:



			But he was ultrasound scanned...
		
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Yes, he was scanned 4-6 weeks down the line because his head swelled.
He wasn't scanned because of his fracture per se, he was scanned due to a flare up after 4 weeks.

I think you are a little hung up about the x-rays. 
They can't exactly put his head in a cast, so why waste time and money carrying out a procedure that will not affect the outcome of the treatment.

Think logically about it.

I hope he comes right for you cptrayes. As you know, I spent years trying with mine.


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## Tobiano (21 April 2014)

Goodness OP.  Haven't read all the replies but just going by this page you have obviously had some very undeserved unkind comments.  Hugs.  I for one honestly believe you are doing the right thing for your horse (not that it's any of my business) and am very sorry for the situation you are both in.  x x


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## cptrayes (21 April 2014)

quirky said:



			I hope he comes right for you cptrayes. As you know, I spent years trying with mine.
		
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  Thank you Quirky, all the time things are changing, I'll keep going with him.


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## cptrayes (21 April 2014)

tobiano said:



			Goodness OP.  Haven't read all the replies but just going by this page you have obviously had some very undeserved unkind comments.  Hugs.  I for one honestly believe you are doing the right thing for your horse (not that it's any of my business) and am very sorry for the situation you are both in.  x x
		
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Thank you, that means a lot.


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## Sheep (21 April 2014)

Good luck cpt, nothing useful to add but you offered some great advice to me when I had problems with my boy.


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## TrasaM (21 April 2014)

I also can't understand why posters think they have the right to demand the OP provide Them with details from a previous thread. Very odd! 
Pleased to hear that he seems more relaxed today CPT. If he's anything like me a good old shoulder massage will cheer him up xx


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## cptrayes (21 April 2014)

Sheep said:



			Good luck cpt, nothing useful to add but you offered some great advice to me when I had problems with my boy.
		
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Did I?  I'm dreadful with names and faces   I'm glad it helped.


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## cptrayes (21 April 2014)

TrasaM said:



			I also can't understand why posters think they have the right to demand the OP provide Them with details from a previous thread. Very odd! 
Pleased to hear that he seems more relaxed today CPT. If he's anything like me a good old shoulder massage will cheer him up xx
		
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He's had a head massage and ear pulling session  and he seemed very comforted by it


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## Sheep (21 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Did I?  I'm dreadful with names and faces   I'm glad it helped.
		
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Yep! Back in October time. Best wishes to your boy, it must be very tough. If only they could talk.


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## TrasaM (21 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			He's had a head massage and ear pulling session  and he seemed very comforted by it 

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Works for me every time


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## mightymammoth (21 April 2014)

amandap said:



			This thread has become distasteful to read. Some thoughts are best kept to yourself on forums! 

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agree with this don't let it get to you cptrayes.


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## Clannad48 (21 April 2014)

victoria1980x said:



			agree with this don't let it get to you cptrayes.
		
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I fail to understand why some people feel the need to be so agressive towards other members of the forum. Yes it is a forum and we are all entitled to our opinions, but why not be a little more pleasant when putting those opinions forward. 

ie. I'm sorry but I don't agree ...... or unfortunately I think that.......

There is enough unpleasantness in this world without making agressive and nasty comments.

I wish cptrayes all the best with getting things sorted.


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## teabiscuit (21 April 2014)

Poor behaviour. I avoided posting when my old boy was ill because I knew I wouldn't be up to handling any rubbish.
Thanks for posting, cptrayes, it's been an education. Best wishes for Ace.


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## zigzag (21 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			No,  the dentist refused to gag him because of tmj displacement. 


Well pardon me if I am more inclined to listen to a vet, particularly one whose opinionn agrees with the one who's actually seen the horse, than to  an accounts clerk or a fireman or a stay at home mum, or whatever you are 



He's had a headache for a few days. Shall I come and shoot you the next time you have a headache for a few days?

He's much happier today and the weather is much warmer. From how my own fractures feel in cold weather, I think this is logical.

You seem unaware that left to their to their own devices, most bone chips will either rejoin, if there is a blood supply, or reabsorb if not? Particularly if the area of bone broken is static, like an eye socket or a cheekbone.
		
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I'm well aware of what loose bone chips do, especially if one is pressing on a nerve... and that bone chips can eventually work their way to the surface after several months if not reabsorbed, surprise surprise I do actually have experience of bone chips, AND what can go wrong with them if they are ignored because you DON'T know that they are there/doing.   I was only stating what you said about shooting him, you are giving him to June or maybe September, then reassess then you will put him down as he can't be a field ornament.

Anyway, all the best to poor Ace, hope it's a good outcome, but I'm out of here, you obviously don't like hearing what you don't want to hear  .

P.s BTW I'm not a fireman , but I could be a vet  How do you know who an anonymous person is on the internet giving advice.


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## LadyRascasse (21 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Do you think it is acceptable to accuse me of looking for an excuse to put the horse down?
		
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Sadly it seems to come with this territory, I someone who had ridden past my horse in the field tell me there was nothing wrong with her and I was only having her PTS so I could get another riding horse. Gotta love armchair critics who think they know the horse better than you!! For what its worth xrays where never used for my mare either as my vet felt they wouldn't change the treatment or outcome.


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## teabiscuit (21 April 2014)

I have 44 blinks per min and 36 bpm


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## cptrayes (21 April 2014)

zigzag said:



			P.s BTW I'm not a fireman , but I could be a vet  How do you know who an anonymous person is on the internet giving advice.
		
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I don't. Which is why I am listening to my vet, and not to people like you on the internet who don't even want me to know their name, yet feel prepared to criticise me heavily for not wanting to discuss my horse's treatment with them when I have not sought their advice. 







If like to say a big thank you to everyone who has shared information on human and horse head injuries and trigeminal neuralgia. You've been a help and a comfort.

Please keep your fingers crossed for Ace's continued improvement.


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## zigzag (21 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I don't. Which is why I am listening to my vet, and not to people like you on the internet who don't even want me to know their name, yet feel prepared to criticise me heavily for not wanting to discuss my horse's treatment with them when I have not sought their advice. 







If like to say a big thank you to everyone who has shared information on human and horse head injuries and trigeminal neuralgia. You've been a help and a comfort.

Please keep your fingers crossed for Ace's continued improvement.
		
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Why would you want my name? I don't know your real name


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## cptrayes (21 April 2014)

zigzag said:



			Why would you want my name? I don't know your real name
		
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Yes you do. It's cptrayes. I want your name because I want to know who this person is who is so critical of me, in order to judge how much attention I should pay to their criticism.


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## Holly Hocks (21 April 2014)

Hope he comes right for you CPT.  I'm another you offered great help to with some lameness issues. You had the right answer even when my vet didn't!   You know your horse best and what the best thing is for him. I can't wait for your thread in a few months when you post that he is back in work again - I'm sure you'll get there.


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## zigzag (21 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Yes you do. It's cptrayes. I want your name because I want to know who this person is who is so critical of me, in order to judge how much attention I should pay to their criticism.
		
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How is it being critical asking why you won't have x-rays to check?


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## Fun Times (21 April 2014)

The crazy tangent this thread has taken aside, how is he now CPT? Have you noticed any reduction in blinking or does the frown seem any easier?


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## cptrayes (21 April 2014)

Fun Times said:



			The crazy tangent this thread has taken aside, how is he now CPT? Have you noticed any reduction in blinking or does the frown seem any easier?
		
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Definitely happier today thank you . He's now nose rubbing, which if I look back at my notes he also did at exactly the same timing with the eye socket fracture. In spite of high winds and Sun, his blink rate is lower by a noticeable amount, down to 30+ from 50+     I'm more hopeful about him today


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## cptrayes (21 April 2014)

zigzag said:



			How is it being critical asking why you won't have x-rays to check?
		
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It isn't, necessarily, the criticism I was referring to was your constant and repeated criticism of the fact that I don't wish to discuss it with you. 

Are you planning on continuing this pointless conversation all night, because I want to watch the recording we have of Fargo, If you'll excuse me for a while?


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## Fun Times (21 April 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Definitely happier today thank you . He's now nose rubbing, which if I look back at my notes he also did at exactly the same timing with the eye socket fracture. In spite of high winds and Sun, his blink rate is lower by a noticeable amount, down to 30+ from 50+     I'm more hopeful about him today 

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Great news CPT. Lets hope this marks a step in the right direction for him. Now just put an additional layer of bubblewrap all over him and we will all sleep easier!


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## mjcssjw2 (21 April 2014)

its not pollen related is it? only ask as my horse is nose rubbing at the minute and is desperate for you to rub his face kind of up between his eyes, but he does have some pollen allergies i think. he is far better hacked out in nose net and ear thingy.
the ear thingy i have no clue about but wondered if he is irritated by the pollen and can't bear anything flying round his ears.


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## Yertis (21 April 2014)

zigzag said:



			Why would you want my name? I don't know your real name
		
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pmsl!! In all the years I have seen postings from cptrayes (that is her actual name lol!!) on several forums (and had good advice from her) she has ALWAYS used her real name.


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## mightymammoth (21 April 2014)

yes she's even got her photo out there (Cover star of a book) 

and I'm another person she has gone out of her way to advise


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## Tiddlypom (21 April 2014)

Yertis said:



			pmsl!! In all the years I have seen postings from cptrayes (that is her actual name lol!!) on several forums (and had good advice from her) she has ALWAYS used her real name.
		
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Hilarious. Excuse me for being thick, but I realised only fairly recently that CPT posts under her real name.  Have a good laugh at my expense, too, while you're at it.


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## cptrayes (21 April 2014)

mjcssjw2 said:



			its not pollen related is it? only ask as my horse is nose rubbing at the minute and is desperate for you to rub his face kind of up between his eyes, but he does have some pollen allergies i think. he is far better hacked out in nose net and ear thingy.
the ear thingy i have no clue about but wondered if he is irritated by the pollen and can't bear anything flying round his ears.
		
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Thanks for the suggestion but it's almost certain to be nerve damage, hopefully recovering, from two fractures to his head since the start of this year.








Fargo was good, but anyone who watches it who doesn't already know, it's NOT true, that is a lie by the Coen brothers.


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## zigzag (21 April 2014)

Yertis said:



			pmsl!! In all the years I have seen postings from cptrayes (that is her actual name lol!!) on several forums (and had good advice from her) she has ALWAYS used her real name.
		
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Well, I didn't know it was her real name,  as 99% of people don't use their real name on forums, but glad I gave you a laugh


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## cptrayes (21 April 2014)

victoria1980x said:



			yes she's even got her photo out there (Cover star of a book) 

and I'm another person she has gone out of her way to advise
		
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Aww, no, I'm just the monkey on his back, George was a brilliant jumper from a couple of weeks after I first backed him, just a complete natural. I sold him to a friend for her tall ten year old daughter and they love him to bits.


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## cptrayes (29 April 2014)

Just a quick update. We've been having a bad time, with an escalation into nose rubbing, constantly yawning and licking his lips, twitching, and then head flicking. Also looking behind him as if something was going to attack him. My detailed diary showed that he was triggered by wind and cold mostly, and then by sun. He looked so miserable I could hardly bear it. We tried Bute, but it wore off in two hours and he would have needed eight or more a day to do anything. Impossible of course, it's terribly toxic at that level. Then suddenly today he looks completely different, much more relaxed, and for the first time in weeks he just went out and grazed tonight  instead of going for my little cob first.  Please keep your fingers crossed for me that this is the start of his recovery.


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## Garnet (29 April 2014)

Fingers firmly crossed for you.  Please, whoever is up there, let the improvement continue.


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## RunToEarth (29 April 2014)

CPT just to say I've been following this and how frustrating for you. I hope he continues to improve or you find some answers to your questions.


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## magicmoose (29 April 2014)

Fingers crossed for him.


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## cptrayes (2 May 2014)

It was false hope I'm afraid. It was because the wind had completely stopped, and it's obvious from my diary that he is triggered most by wind and cold.  He's getting worse. He is shutting off while he is in during the day and is not eating, so he is losing weight. For a horse who was difficult to keep trim when in work, that's very worrying. He was in a muzzle this time last year.

He can eat fine, and he does while grazing and when he first comes in, but he loses interest. I've now also seen him really shake his head violently, and his frown never goes away.

I am waiting on some non steroid and non Bute painkillers from my vet to see what effect they have. I have been offered a referral for a neurectomy, which I have turned down, on the basis that it is very uncertain whether it will work, and that if it does the nerve can regrow. My vet tells me that these cases of trigeminal nerve headshakers are generally progressive and rarely have a good outcome.

I intend to give him some more time to try to show me that he can heal himself, but I will not allow him to continue in pain for months and months.

Now, there are users of this forum who believe that I am looking for an excuse to put this horse down because they think that I am afraid to ride him. To those people I say that I have video of him working with me on him at an arena near me which was taken after the back operation and before the head injuries.

I'm also aware that there are posters who believe that I have a history of taking on horses and having them put down when I can't ride them. For them, this is the full list of all the horses I have ever had put down. All the many other horses I have owned were sold, most at a considerable profit, except for one barefoot rehab who I gave to the people I loaned him to once I was sure they loved him.

1986 Finnegan. Total loss of kidney function.
2006 Smartie. Total blindness right eye, 25% sight left eye. Frightened witless.
2012 Jazz. Born with C3/4 vertebrae malformation, semi paralysed at ten years old when C4 broke into several pieces.
2013 Woody. Taken on as a barefoot rehab. Came to me as a horse who was always hacked out  in a Market Harborough (draw reins) and who would only take a nathe bit. I got him sound, trained him to hack without the draw reins and school in a metal joined snaffle. I took him hunting and he chose to turn away from the other horses and jump onto a wire fence. When he calmed down I put him in the lorry where he went utterly berserk, ending up on his back with all four feet pointed at the ceiling. It took a fire brigade and a vet call to get him home. At home, he started having panic attacks in the field, so I offered his previous owner as long as she needed to find him a retirement home, but she (wisely in my opinion) chose not to take up that option.

So, if this ends up the way it looks like it's going to, and you still believe that I am cruel enough to have a horse shot rather than face that I haven't got the skill to ride him, or that I am stupid enough to put down a horse that  I could sell for twenty thousand if I sent him to a pro to get the medium points on that he would be  ready to get with a pro rider, then please keep those nasty opinions to yourself, because I'm having enough trouble facing this situation as it is.


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## Tiddlypom (2 May 2014)

So sorry that he is getting worse. All best vibes.


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## Lynsey&Smartie (2 May 2014)

It's really sad that you feel that it is necessary to have to write the above re a decision that you have not even made yet! It is obvious to anyone reading this thread that you care for the horse and have done your very best to help him try and recover and that if it does come to him being PTS that you are only doing so because you believe it is the right thing to do for him because he is in pain. 

I hope it doesn't come to this but if it does you do not have to justify that decision to anybody.


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## magicmoose (2 May 2014)

I'm so sorry to hear this. I hope that improving weather will at least give him some respite and give you a chance to weigh up your options. Still keeping fingers crossed.


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## TrasaM (2 May 2014)

Really sorry to read this CPT .. No need to justify in my opinion x


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## Tobiano (2 May 2014)

Oh gosh I am so sorry to hear your poor horse is still in a bad way.  Bless you both.  From everything I have seen you put on here, I am absolutely certain you will do the best thing for him.  Not that that should really matter as it is none of my business or anyone else's, but as you obviously have been horribly criticised by some people I just thought I would add some support.  Hugs.


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## Andalucian (2 May 2014)

Hi, your latest update doesn't sound good 
Unbelievably bad luck. Do what ever you think is right for him, if he stays like this life isn't viable for him clearly.
So sorry, he's such a stunning horse.


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## LadyRascasse (2 May 2014)

Sadly this sounds just like my little mare  Good luck with him, here is you need to talk. Did those videos ever work? Her's was made worse by the wind and got progressively worse. 

Also to ANYONE who says you are frightened to ride him, I did ride mine on the first vets advice was told it was behavioral and to ride her through it. I ended up being thrown from 12ft landing on my head and getting severe concussion this was after only one lap of the school in walk. I couldn't work for a couple of days and the injury didn't heal for several weeks, she could have killed me totally unintentionally and thank god I was wearing a hat.  The pain they go through with this condition is like being electrocuted and it would be just plain cruel to ride them (and in hindsight now I know what the symptoms are I would never have even put tack on that poor mare)


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## YorksG (2 May 2014)

Sorry to read that the improvement was temporary. We keep all our horses till their end (our choice and no judgement on anyone elses choices), we have pts from 4 weeks, through 11 years, to their teens, twenties and thirties,  as in your cases always for the benefit of the horse. Please ignore the Dweebs who would carp and make ridiculous statements, they know nothing.


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## Pigeon (2 May 2014)

I'm new to this case too, and I have been through something similar to CPT - we had to have a horse put down due to undiagnosed pain issues. Truth be told, we simply ran out of money before a diagnoses was reached, and the vets weren't optimistic. Kissing spines were ruled out via x ray, arthritis in the neck and sacro-iliac ruled out via cortisone, lameness in the legs ruled out via nerve blocking. They thought it might be a tumour in his spinal column, but a post mortem was just not possible financially, so we will never know, and it does bother me still. He was a wonderfully sweet horse who behaved beautifully, you would never know he was sick until you touched his back. He couldn't even wear rugs towards the end, poor soul. 

So I have been in your shoes, it is horrible. And it's entirely possible that this horse has some underlying issue, that may never be fully understood. That is the nature of well, nature.

But people on here all want to help, they all want what's best for the horse, even if you don't necessarily agree with their viewpoints. So I can totally understand why they're asking about X rays, and it's great to be armed with other people's experiences (migrating bone chip etc) to add to the list of possibilities. I couldn't find the reason you hadn't had x rays/ultrasounds, I'm sure you have a good reason, I just couldn't find it in the posts I scanned. Remember vets are human too, and things can be overlooked! It sounds like you are having a lot of discussion with your vet, which is good.

It's an intriguing and emotive case, I can see why people are curious. I'm sure the X ray questions were purely out of curiosity and a desire to help, I wouldn't read them as insulting.


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## Garnet (2 May 2014)

tobiano said:



			Oh gosh I am so sorry to hear your poor horse is still in a bad way.  Bless you both.  From everything I have seen you put on here, I am absolutely certain you will do the best thing for him.  Not that that should really matter as it is none of my business or anyone else's, but as you obviously have been horribly criticised by some people I just thought I would add some support.  Hugs.
		
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Just this.
Have some more hugs(((CPT)))


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## Pigeon (2 May 2014)

Just read the post saying he'd worsened  Very sad. 

Could he have banged his poll at some point? I know a horse who had similar issues when he fractured his poll...


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## Regandal (2 May 2014)

Trigeminal neuralgia is one of the worst pains, what is he on for pain CPT?


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## cptrayes (2 May 2014)

Regandal said:



			Trigeminal neuralgia is one of the worst pains, what is he on for pain CPT?
		
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I have said above, I am waiting on my vet to source non steroid (he's a laminitic) and non Bute (he gets ulcers at the drop of a hat) painkillers. I was disappointed that he did not ring me back today.


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## cptrayes (2 May 2014)

Pigeon said:



			Just read the post saying he'd worsened  Very sad. 

Could he have banged his poll at some point? I know a horse who had similar issues when he fractured his poll...
		
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He fractured his right eye socket in January and at least cracked, probably fractured his left cheek bone in March. This appears to be what has caused the head pain.


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## hayinamanger (2 May 2014)

So sorry, you have my full supprt and respect.


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## Wagtail (2 May 2014)

Could you get a course of abprazole and give it along side some danilon?


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## cptrayes (2 May 2014)

Wagtail said:



			Could you get a course of abprazole and give it along side some danilon?
		
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Wagtail he would need at least eight danilon a day to get anywhere near helping him. We tested him on Bute and it lasted only three hours before he was frowning as badly as ever. It's just not feasible, it's very toxic to the liver at those doses.

Thanks for trying to help folks, but we are doing everything we can.


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## Regandal (2 May 2014)

From personal experience, having taken both diclofenac and naproxen (human equivalent of bute or danilon) I know that turmeric is as effective - and it does not irritate the stomach or thin the mucosal lining.  He may benefit from turmeric.  Could the vet block the affected nerve with local?  Perhaps he/she has done that.  There are long-acting local anaesthetics. If the pain can't be controlled with oral painkillers, it can be tackled from a different angle.


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## spookypony (2 May 2014)

My utmost sympathy, to you for all your worries and heart-ache, and to Ace, for his injuries and related problems. All I can offer is (((vibes))).


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## Diddleydoo (2 May 2014)

I am so sorry, You are trying so hard for him it is about time it started to go your way.


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## Charley (2 May 2014)

Gabapentin works for nerve pain, bute and finadyne don't. But Gabapentin is not licenced for horses, is hugely expensive and you need to use a lot of it.
Acupuncture worked for my horse with nerve pain.


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## Salcey (3 May 2014)

Thinking of you CPT........ life is **** at times, you don't deserve this


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## Sam_J (3 May 2014)

So sorry to hear that Ace doesn't seem to be improving - it must be very hard to see him in pain.

As for all the negative comments from others - I'm sure they're very hard to read and not at all what you need when you're going through such a tough time, but those that know you (and even lots that have never met you!) know that you are doing everything you can for Ace and will continue to do so, even if that means PTS to spare him from more pain.  Sending lots of good vibes your way and keeping everything crossed for a positive outcome.


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## Regandal (3 May 2014)

Acupuncture also worked for my mother after she had shingles, post-herpatic pain can be worse than the initial illness. Sorry I keep referring back to human meds, but another good thing for nerve pain is capsaicin cream or gel, which is applied topically.  Takes a couple of days to kick in, but works for a lot of people.  Comes in different strengths, strong one is prescription only but a more dilute one can be bought OTC.


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