# Breeding. Big stallion to a small mare?



## Enfys (23 January 2007)

I was talking to someone yesterday and the conversation came around to breeding. This chap offered me the use of his APHA stallion for my 14h, very fine arab mare, now,  I've seen this stallion he is 16h and basically built like a brick outhouse. I am NOT even considering it.

So, would you:

a) Put a small mare to this giant of a horse?  

and

b) Consider it seriously unwise/dangerous to breed any type of horse with that sort of difference in size? (Big stallion, small mare I mean)


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## vanessahook (23 January 2007)

It wouldn't be the smartest thing to do, could cause complications at birth. The other way round fine, and extremely funny watching a very small stallion trying his luck with a big mare!!!


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## Enfys (23 January 2007)

I was just thinking that 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I have heard of smaller stallions actually positioning themselves uphill of a big mare!


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## vanessahook (23 January 2007)

I used to work on a stud farm and we would put out little stallion in the horsebox and put the mare at the bottom and let him run down. He would get on her back and his little legs would be dangling!!!


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## horsegirl (23 January 2007)

There was a question about this in one the horsey mags a few months ago.  Somone had  Shetland in foal to a big horse (forget the breed) and were wondering whether they should have the foal aborted.  The answer was that the mare's womb size will regulate the size of the foal so it would be fine.


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## evsj (23 January 2007)

Doesn't size of mare's pelvis come into it too?  if foal is too big for the small mare that can cause probs, can't it?


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## airedale (23 January 2007)

Height difference is usually little problem if the mare has a good pelvic area. Substance difference such as you describe is what will cause problems

I wouldn't

However if you want to breed up in height from your arab mare then 14hh to 16hh to get a 15hh is not or should not be a problem if you picked the right stallion.

Ideally you should look for a sports horse type that is for example say half TB and half whatever with good bone and conformation but not heavy

I've bred several times from small mares to big stallions but only because the mares are a: native and therefore less likely to be prone to foaling problems, B: have very good pelvic structure and foal room and c: always considered the 'bulk' of the stallion concerned.


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## Tharg (23 January 2007)

Its the pelvis of the mare that is the problem


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## MillionDollar (23 January 2007)

My two 13.2 NF mares are in-faol to a 16hh WB. but this was AI and both mares are very wide being NF.

I would put your mare to that stallion if i knew she had been checked over by a vet, theres no reason not to. My friend put her 11.2 mare to her 15hh stallion quite a few times with no problems.


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## MillionDollar (23 January 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
  There was a question about this in one the horsey mags a few months ago. Somone had Shetland in foal to a big horse (forget the breed) and were wondering whether they should have the foal aborted. The answer was that the mare's womb size will regulate the size of the foal so it would be fine.

[/ QUOTE ] 

Yes thats right, its like my mums old dog (a corgie) got in pup, by total accident by a HUGE labrador. She had no problems giving birth to 4 healthy Corgidors!!!


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## Halfpass (23 January 2007)

As a rule the female of any species regulates the size of the fetus and most never grow too big to be given birth to. Obviously there is the exception and I def wouldn't go for an extremly big sire and small mare but wouldn't have a problem with the sizes you are mentioning.


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## JadeWisc (23 January 2007)

Oh I would never consider it! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I am not a breeding expert in any way but I would imagine it is just common sense 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I posted on here awhile ago about my shock of hearing a man who wanted to bread an underweight 2 yr old Shetland  mare to a Haflinger 
	
	
		
		
	


	





seems wrong

but then again I weighed 115lbs and my daughters father was a GIANT! I had an almost 10 lb baby and I lived 
	
	
		
		
	


	








 I dare say I had a hell of alot of medical intervention though to do it naturally!


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## GreedyGuts (23 January 2007)

The size of the stallion would not have an effect on whether your mare had problems at foaling as she will govern the size of her foal. In other species such as dogs and cattle the sire has a bearing, but this is not the case in horses.


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## Patches (23 January 2007)

When I first joined this forum there was a member who's Section A had a surprise foal which turned out to be from the Warmblood in the next field. (I think it was a warmblood).

The foal was bigger than it's dam by a few months old. Something tells me the mare was Amber...but I might be wrong.


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## JadeWisc (23 January 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
The size of the stallion would not have an effect on whether your mare had problems at foaling as she will govern the size of her foal. In other species such as dogs and cattle the sire has a bearing, but this is not the case in horses. 

[/ QUOTE ]

but a shetland to a Haflinger 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I have a feeling that it could very well result in a tragedy.  I have to admit this is the first time I have ever heard this. As I said though, I am no horse breeder.

Anyone else heard of this as fact?


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## MillionDollar (23 January 2007)

All i know, and have been told by professional horse breeders, is that the size of the sire does not matter. Like previous people have said the foal will only grow to the size of that the mare can cope with.

I bet the covering was a bit uncomfortable for the Shetland though 
	
	
		
		
	


	












 lol


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## JadeWisc (23 January 2007)

has not happened yet! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




I hope they come to their senses imo


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## Gingernags (23 January 2007)

Yup its the covering thats usually the problem.  I put my 14.2 mini TB type to a 16.1 but he was a very fine TB and we had no issues, though for a first foal I was told Ginge was a big un!

We nearly cried though as one v v v old fashioned horse bloke (I did NOT like his methods) brought a 13.2 mare to be put in foal to stop her growing (I think she was rising 3) and wanted to use the bigger TB - now he was 16.2 and a hefty chap for a TB, chunky and powerful like an old fashioned Irish chaser type and ahem *big*.

We didn't want to use him, thought he should have used the other (Asti's Dad), who was the finer one and more reasonable... but he insisted.  It was a VERY difficult covering, she really struggled to stand and take his weight, and tore quite a bit.  Poor thing.

So whilst carrying the foal isn't a problem - a natural covering is sometimes too hard.


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## JadeWisc (23 January 2007)

Interesting. I am going to read into this. Now I have to get all the details out of pure curiosity.


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## suebingham (23 January 2007)

My itty-bitty maiden mare's (&lt;14 HH at the time) baby-daddy was a 16+ HH Quarter heel-horse. (love child obviously) Consulted with the vet about aborting it but his considered opinion was that it would probably be just fine. It was (very quick easy labor). But the poor lil foal walked on her hocks for almost a day cause she was so smished up in there that her legs didn't properly straighten up for about 18 hours.


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## henryhorn (23 January 2007)

It isn't the foaling complications you need to worry about it's the covering difficulties!
We only ever covered two what we would call pony mares, one 14 hh another a little bigger. The first mare was just so slight he nearly squashed her, but managed to get her in foal. That foal grew to a middleweight 15.2 hh out of in all honesty a runt of a mare..
The next mare suddenly moved sideway when being covered (we only ever had two of us to hold them, one handling the stallion, one the mare) and suffered a tear in her vagina. We stopped and called the vet as it was obvious it was more than the little injuries you sometimes see, but she ended up with peritonitis and nearly died. 
After that we never covered less than 15 hh again.  I have to say our old stallion was an enormous 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 boy, this one is around a quarter the size being more Tb, but I agree with you, I would go for something a bit smaller I think for your mare.


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## Tia (23 January 2007)

One of our little pregnant mare's is 12.2hh and she has been bred to my APHA stallion who is 15hh by natural cover in a pasture-bred situation.

As already said, the foetus never grows beyond the size of the Mother's womb in most circumstances therefore the size of the sire is irrelevant.  It is only once the foal emerges that it takes up the attributes of both parents.

Your little mare should be absolutely fine to be bred to this stallion.

As to Jade's query; the mare you were talking about is a miniature shetland, which is really an almost different species and would be very risky if it was bred to the Haflinger.


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## Tia (23 January 2007)

It isn't a problem as the foetus is small enough to pass through without problems.  As already said, the foetus will only grow to the size available to it ie. the womb.  The only problems which occur can be that the stallion's little man may be too big for the mare and rupture her.


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## Penguinboots (23 January 2007)

The stud I help out at had a 13.2 mare put into foal by a 15 hh stallion last year, the mare had a very difficult birth, it was hit or miss whether both mare and foal would make it for a bit. Needless to say, the owner isn't going to put a litlle mare in with a big stallion again. The pic's tiny, but you can see foal caught up with mum's hight very fast!


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## Tia (24 January 2007)

Well personally if it was me and one of my broodmares had a difficult foaling then I would be seriously concerned about ever putting her in foal again.  She obviously isn't cut out for the job.


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## Penguinboots (24 January 2007)

She's bred foals from a smaller stallion before without any problems &amp; her owner thinks she'll be fine with next year's foal (13.2 sire). But I have to say I'm tempted to agree with you, if it was my own I certainly wouldn't want to risk it.


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## Tia (24 January 2007)

Cute little ponio though.


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## Tharg (24 January 2007)

Sure what about foals whose don`t properly straighten and walk crooked for a bit, surely there is not something right there.


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## Tia (24 January 2007)

Yes there is something not right with that, but those sorts of things rarely come about because of the size of the stallion, more genetic or formation issues.  Some foals are perfect, some aren't.....that's just the risk we all take with breeding any mare.

It's really no different from humans mating; some people are large, some are small, doesn't make any difference to the baby until it comes out.


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## JadeWisc (24 January 2007)

that is a very good point. I spoke of my issue with birth. I have a much better example however. OH's mother is a tiny tiny woman. about 5'1 and 95 lbs soaking wet! Her husband was an ENORMOUS man. She had no problems delivering. She was a mother of 4 as well


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## Tharg (24 January 2007)

I suppose its the luck of the draw regarding genetics, but of course no resonable owner would take obsessive risks


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## siennamum (24 January 2007)

I personally wouldn't allow more than a hand in difference - especially with a maiden mare.
I think it's one of those situations where science tells us one thing and 'experience' tells us another, although the foetus isn't supposed to allow the foal to ourgrow it's mother I've known some horrible situations where mare can't deliver large foal or there are complications which seem unneccesary.


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## Gingernags (24 January 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
   Sure what about foals whose don`t properly straighten and walk crooked for a bit, surely there is not something right there. 

[/ QUOTE ]

We had a foal at the stud with contracted tendons... couldn't possibly have been caused by how much room there was for the foal to grow in though - the mare was an 18hh shire!!!!


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## Enfys (24 January 2007)

Thankyou everyone, interesting and informative comments as always. It would be the covering side of things that would concern me most.

I don't know what is going to happen after she has this foal, I would like to ride her but she's 16 now, been a broodmare all her life it appears, and although she is supposed to be broken I don't know whether it would be fair to start riding her at that age, but that's another question.


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## Kermie (24 January 2007)

I think breeding is risky enough without adding unnecessary risks of foals being stuck during delivery, etc.  A girl on a previous yard lost a foal when her 12hh mare gave birth to it - the foal was huge (covering had been a mistake prior to girl owning the pony).

I know there are people who say the mare dictates the size of the foal, but there are also those who say otherwise.  I remember posting a question on Saddle Up (which has lots of experienced breeders amongst its membership) whether I should put my big-boned, deep Fell mare (13.2hh) to a 15.2hh stallion and the resounding answer was no, unless I was prepared to take the risk of losing her. 

They gave me lots of examples of where they had experienced sad losses.  I would rather learn from their experience than make a grave error.


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## 0ldmare (24 January 2007)

My friends shetland got together with a warmblood and has managed to survive and produced a rather over-sized foal. Probably not recommended tho!


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## amandaco2 (24 January 2007)

i wouldnt, sep if it also a build difference between them.
a big chunky foal in a small slight mare isnt going to come out easily.


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## Kermie (24 January 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
My friends shetland got together with a warmblood and has managed to survive and produced a rather over-sized foal. Probably not recommended tho! 

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's the problem - there will always be examples of where it has worked out okay but IMO that doesn't make it right.  I would hate having to call the vet out to one of my mares and have to cope with her being ripped to bits by the foal and perhaps not even surviving.  Everytime we do decide to breed, we take a risk but I really don't think we should increase the odds of having a problem.   Maybe I'm in the minority but my ponies are important to me and I wouldn't want to live with any dire consequences.


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## Tia (24 January 2007)

I think the point is being completely missed  
	
	
		
		
	


	




.

The foetus does not rip open the mare; the foetus is the same size as it would be if the mare had been bred to a stallion of the same size.  The foetus can generally ONLY grow to the size of the mare's womb whether it was made from a 5hh stallion or a 19hh stallion.

A foal is not a foetus and a foetus is not a foal....this is where the confusion seems to be coming from.


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## MillionDollar (24 January 2007)

Well said Tia!!!!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




I'm sorry Kermie but i think you're missing the point and i don't agree. 

Like Tia says it does not matter what size the sire is.


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## Kermie (24 January 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Well said Tia!!!!  
	
	
		
		
	


	




I'm sorry Kermie but i think you're missing the point and i don't agree. 

Like Tia says it does not matter what size the sire is. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I did say I would be in the minority but it doesn't mean I can't offer my opinion.  Like I said, I have seen a foal that was too large and the vet confirmed this once he helped the mare deliver it - the mare was lucky not to have the same fate as her foal.

Obviously the others I have heard about are stories from others so they don't relate to personal experience, but I don't think reputable breeders are inclined to make stories up!

And as for the "humans are the same" - that is not true either.  My sister is 4' 11" and had a baby of 8lbs 14 ozs.  The delivery had to be forceps  because of its size compared to her pelvis and my sister had to carry around a donut cushion for a year until she had healed enough to have an operation to repair the damage.  She had to have sections after that one.


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## siennamum (25 January 2007)

Likewise, my friend lost mare &amp; foal (it had to be cut from her), because she couldn't deliver it. She was a sturdy little cob. The foal had simply grown too large to be delivered. There's probably no right or wrong answer, but I'd see little sense in taking an unneccesary risk.
I'm confused also about what point it is that we're missing.


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## MillionDollar (25 January 2007)

Where did i say you couldn't offer your opinion??

All i said was that i did not agree which is my opinion! Jeez.

Plus i think you could call Tia a reputable breeder. And i have friends who are breeders, including one who runs a large stud.


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## Amymay (25 January 2007)

I've got to be honest, I never gave it any thought when I put Amy in foal (rightly or wrongly).  I just chose the stallion I thought most appropriate for the job.


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## Kermie (25 January 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
Where did i say you couldn't offer your opinion??

All i said was that i did not agree which is my opinion! Jeez.


[/ QUOTE ]

Okay you didn't say I couldn't offer my opinion, but you did say I was missing the point which is not the case.

Tell that to the breeder who had to watch the vet cut her dead foal into pieces in order to save her mare's life or to the breeder who had to tie ropes round a foal that was too large for the mare to deliver and which foal sadly suffocated before they could get it out.

I didn't say Tia wasn't a reputable breeder - I have nothing to base that on, but I would say the people I am referring to have been breeding quality horses and ponies for upwards of 20 year and given what I have personally witnessed, I am obviously going to go along with the views of those I know have been at the top of their game for years.


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## sallyf (25 January 2007)

siennamum,
I think your right on this one , everyone is entitled to there own opinions on this argument .
You have to go with what is comfortable.
I have seen little mares that have foaled to bigger stallions easily , i have also seen big mares that have not been able to deliver to smaller stallions.
I personally dont like too big a differance between mare and stallion but that is what i am comfortable with and we are usually trying to breed to type not change too much about the mare .
Fortunately (madly touches wood) we have never had any problems taking this view.
I also believe that if you need to put a small mare to a very large stallion to breed height then you should be breeding from a bigger mare.
The best and most consistant foals come from breeding like to like.
The biggest problems that i have seen is when people put big roomy mares to heavy boned stallions but fail to see that the mare doesnt have a broad enough pelvis to get the foal out of.
There will always be exception with small mares foaling to big stallions but then sadly it can go the other way as a frind of mine found out last year when her 3/4 ID couldnt foal and both mare and foal sadly died.
She had foaled the previous year to same small T.B stallion with no bother.


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## Kermie (25 January 2007)

[ QUOTE ]
siennamum,
I think your right on this one , everyone is entitled to there own opinions on this argument .
You have to go with what is comfortable.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is very true and I apologise if I am overly zealous about my viewpoint.  It is difficult to remain detached when you are talking about something you are passionate about (as I am with breeding ponies).


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## Tia (25 January 2007)

You aren't over-zealous.  You are just saying your opinion on how you see it that's all.  No worries.  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Freak incidents happen everyday - that's just life, so you are only pointing out these happenings and there is nothing wrong with that at all.


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