# Should I complain and a general moan!



## dominobrown (6 August 2017)

I went to Hendersyde yesterday eventing with a very unusual trotter X arab. He was a rescue (lived in a shed on an allotment), kept a stallion in the shed and was apparently used to breed with trotting mares to add speed. He was probably broken into harness when he was a yearling.

Anyways I have had him a couple of years, gelded him and broken him to ride. He is a lovely honest horse with a great attitude to life despite his past. He also loves to jump.

As he does like to 'pace' especially when tense I spoke to the judge at the start of the dressage test to explain he may not canter or break into a pace instead of canter and there is nothing wrong with him, its his breeding.
The judge was incredibly rude to me a this point. 
Anyways did the test... it was pretty awful not going lie! 
Very interested to collect my sheet.... guess what the comments said? .....
Nothing... no comment. I have never known such terrible judging at Be 80 TRAINING level... when we went to Warwick the judge was critical but really helpful in her comments at the same time. I was very (and still am!) at yesterdays judge.

However horse was brilliant in jumping phases... very hilly show jumping ring which is tricky on an unbalanced trotter but he only had 1 down.

Cross country he was amazing despite horrendous weather. The course was brilliant for an 80, really interesting for my non horsey boyfriend to watch as every fence was beautifully dressed and presented and the course designer did a fab job at creating a challenging but really fun course to ride. Due to a green over jump at the drop and the horrendous weather and lack of studs I circled before the b elememt picking up 20 instead of hauling him into it and maybe causing him to slip. With the dressage score he got I was not going to win so best keep him happy and confident.

What I would like to moan about is however the person who complained about him pacing cross country. There were some steep slippy hills so I just allowed him to sort and balance himself and he finds pacing easier than cantering. 
The vet checked him at the end of the course due to somebody complaining and was 100% happy with him and said he was 100% sound in walk and trot. 
He has also been fully vetted and x rayed when he came to me by a very good vet who confirmed he is 100%. He is regualry checked by a physio who also believes there is nothing wrong with him at all. So before any busy bodies want to put in complaints I would appreciate if they would talk to me direct or maybe educate themselves on the bio-mechanics of a horse and gaited horses before spouting that is lame.
Anyways appart from some  certain people I am very pleased with ky horse and excited for his future!


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## EventingMum (6 August 2017)

Well done on what you have achieved with him. Hendersyde's SJ ring is unbelievably steep, I remember one year standing at the bottom and not being able to see the fences along the top side. As you say I always the xc was beautifully presented and imaginatively designed. Some people have nothing better to do though perhaps they didn't realise he was pacing and thought it was lameness. At least the vet was able to set the record straight.


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## Rowreach (6 August 2017)

Well done for taking on a non-conventional horse and having fun with him.  The good thing about the eventing circuit is that they are bound to all gossip about him, and then they'll all know he paces for the next time.  Disappointing dressage judging though.  I hate leaving blank spaces, I was taught to justify marks given.


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## Pearlsasinger (6 August 2017)

I think you have grounds for complaint about the dressage judging but as for the vet referral, I think you should be pleased that someone, admittedly probably not very knowledgeable, was concerned enough about a horse they thought was unsound, to say so officially.  The vet checked your horse and found that all was well but a different horse might not have been found to be sound.


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## JennBags (6 August 2017)

What was it the judge said to you that was so rude? 

When I've written at dressage tests, anyone coming up to the judge before they start, making excuses, is generally frowned upon. I understand your reasons for doing it, but I don't think it's particularly constructive. Also, often when the next competitor enters the arena, the judge is still writing her comments on the previous test and you may have interrupted her train of thought.

As for cross-country, I'd much rather that horses we checked for lameness, don't think of it as a complaint, it was probably noticed by a few fence judges and remarked back to control, and BE have a duty of care to the horse.  If your horse has an unusual gait then he may look lame to people who haven't seen it before.

I understand you're upset but I think you might be over-thinking it all and there's no harm done. Well done for getting out there and doing it, and the more you do it, the less tension your boy will have


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## dominobrown (6 August 2017)

Thank you for the replies. I think he getting pretty well known at our local events now and some people are shocked by his improvement... and his ability to jump. When he learns to really push from the canter god knows what he will jump as he can 1.10m from a tranter currently! 
I understand the need for the vet check, it was quite humilating in the car park in front of loads of people but also quite satisfying infront of the growing crowd for the vet to state he thought there was nothing wrong with him and that he was sound.


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## Auslander (6 August 2017)

What did the judge say?


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## dominobrown (6 August 2017)

Not much... just shrugged her shoulders, muttered something like "for gods sake" then slammed the car door. Not a lot to say on the sheet either &#55357;&#56833;


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## conniegirl (6 August 2017)

Sorry but approaching th judge before your test is a big no no! I thought it was disqualification if you did so.
You took a horse who paces into a class where they are expected to trot and canter in a decent outline and well balanced, what exactly were you expecting? If your horse cannot comfortably do the test in trot and canter then it was not ready for the competition.


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## dominobrown (6 August 2017)

I disagree... You are much better to explain beforehand rather than be stopped midway through the test and upset you and the horse further. Most judges are understanding. 
Also it's a BE 80 and he does trot no ely I an outline but when tense and upset he does pace... some horse bolt... the horse in before me bronced... it happens.. .. get over it. He has managed to get 65% with a listed judge before and in both events he has done he was not last after dressage as apart from the poor canter at times he is very accurate and obedient.
Just because he is a trotter doesn't meant he should not be allowed to compete... especially at the lowest level and it is that attitude which unhelpful in the sport. 
As to what I was expecting.... not an amazing mark. I don't mind getting a 3 or a 4 for the times he breaks behind in the canter and goes into tranter... but some constructive criticism would be nice.
Unfortuanlty in the affilated competition world there are lot of people who believe if it's not a warmblood, thoroughbred etc it shouldn't compete however there where all shapes and sizes there... and that's how it should be.


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## Rowreach (6 August 2017)

conniegirl said:



			Sorry but approaching th judge before your test is a big no no! I thought it was disqualification if you did so.
You took a horse who paces into a class where they are expected to trot and canter in a decent outline and well balanced, what exactly were you expecting? If your horse cannot comfortably do the test in trot and canter then it was not ready for the competition.
		
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By that token, anything which has a pole down sj or a stop xc "isn't ready" ....


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## Shay (6 August 2017)

I'm with JenBags.  Approaching the dressage judge before the test was at best impolite and definitely something not to repeat.  I'm not at all surprised there were no comments on the sheet.  I think you'll have to chalk that one up to experience.  However you may well have been observed speaking to the judge when you should not have which might have been the driving factor behind the later concern?

People complain about other competitors all the time - some seem to do it as a hobby.  Perhaps speak to the secretary when you collect your tabard.  Any complaints as to soundness etc have to come through them anyway.  Otherwise I'm afraid it might just be a fact of life.


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## Tiddlypom (6 August 2017)

Sorry, but approaching the judge before the test is a big no no. As said by others, she'd have been busy writing up the comments from the previous test, so no wonder she was short with you. Also as a FJ, I would definitely radio in if a horse looked 'off' over my fence, (I FJ and dressage scribe at BE), and we are encouraged to do so by control.

Well done for training him up, but be aware that he may look a bit odd to those of us unfamiliar with pacers.


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## milliepops (6 August 2017)

JennBags said:



			What was it the judge said to you that was so rude? 

When I've written at dressage tests, anyone coming up to the judge before they start, making excuses, is generally frowned upon. I understand your reasons for doing it, but I don't think it's particularly constructive. Also, often when the next competitor enters the arena, the judge is still writing her comments on the previous test and you may have interrupted her train of thought.

As for cross-country, I'd much rather that horses we checked for lameness, don't think of it as a complaint, it was probably noticed by a few fence judges and remarked back to control, and BE have a duty of care to the horse.  If your horse has an unusual gait then he may look lame to people who haven't seen it before.

I understand you're upset but I think you might be over-thinking it all and there's no harm done. Well done for getting out there and doing it, and the more you do it, the less tension your boy will have 

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^^ this 

Stick at it, and hopefully the tension will diminish and he'll be able to show the correct paces. In the meantime, the fact that he's bred to pace is quite irrelevant to the judge who can only score performance against the requirements of the test without taking the horse's back story into account.


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## dominobrown (6 August 2017)

I can see why going to judge beforehand is frowned upon so does anypne have any suggestions on what to do...
I had previously told the seceratary upon paying my start fee.
I was going to get a vets letter I could present in dressage?
Ask the organisers to put me last so after my test, or if I get stopped in a test the judge is not worrying about the times.

I did stand well back and wait for the judge to finsh doing what she was doing so not to interrupt.
Any suggestions? The annoying thing is with any young green horse is the lack of constinceny... he doesnt always pace... sometimes if not tense and goung well, listening etc he wont do it!


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## milliepops (6 August 2017)

I personally don't see any alternative to taking the hit on it if he does pace tbh, if he were mine and I wanted to see how to manage him so that he didn't pace in the dressage phase I'd be entering lots of local dressage shows HC and chipping away at it until he was reliably able to show the correct paces.  

The judge can only mark what they see on the day, there's nothing in the rules to say that there is any accomodation for horses bred to pace so it's going to be expensive if he does it until then (assume it affected both the marks for the movements and the collectives)- unfortunate for you, but that's the disadvantage of riding non-standard horses in competition... i say this as a person with 2 non-standard horses


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## el_Snowflakes (6 August 2017)

To be honest, although you meant well I think it's innaproprate to approach the judge prior to your test. The judge has to judge everyone applying the same rules to everyone regardless of breed, type, age etc. 

However i do find it a bit bizarre that someone complained about pacing in the XC?! Perhaps they were concerned that your horse wasn't sound. Either way, I wouldn't let it put you up or down


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## dominobrown (6 August 2017)

We did a lot of unaffilated over winter... we were stopped a lot to start with as often he wouldn't do a true trot... and having someone stop you and tell you there is something wrong with your horse is not nice! It's also really hard to get back into the test. Also problem with some uaffilated judges are they are a bit clueless. I had one tell me he was stiff but not in walk and couldn't decide what leg. When I explained it was his breed she had never heard of a pacer. However some judges have been really really helpful... especially the one who judges the dressage at the Iclandic national show stopped me at the end of the test and gave me lots of hints. I had a few lessons with him and it is thanks to him that the horse can now do a true trot.
He did go to an unaffilated outing before the event and didn't pace either... it was small indoor venue, with no prize giving going on in the background or weather and he cantered fine. 

 I think I may get a vets letter just in case. He has been seen by numerous vets now (did a bit of endurance and those lot love him!) And everyone says he is fine.
He can scratch marks back in the walk as his walk is massive and really swinging with loads of overtrack.


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## Orangehorse (6 August 2017)

I agree with the others.  If you are a "non standard" horse then there is nothing to stop you competiting, and as you have found his jumping is really good, but you are being compared to all the others.  Like eventing on a Morgan, where they have a high head carriage and can have "up down" knee action in trot, and as someone says "try telling a Morgan to stretch long and low in the free walk. However, they make up for it in the jumping phases.

Some people seem hardly to realise that there are different breeds other than TB and warmblood, so anything more unusual is going to look strange to them - I daresay some have never seen a pacer.


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## dominobrown (6 August 2017)

Orangehorse said:



			I agree with the others.  If you are a "non standard" horse then there is nothing to stop you competiting, and as you have found his jumping is really good, but you are being compared to all the others.  Like eventing on a Morgan, where they have a high head carriage and can have "up down" knee action in trot, and as someone says "try telling a Morgan to stretch long and low in the free walk. However, they make up for it in the jumping phases.

Some people seem hardly to realise that there are different breeds other than TB and warmblood, so anything more unusual is going to look strange to them - I daresay some have never seen a pacer.
		
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As the other thread states... every horse has their strengths.... and weaknesses. Canter is a weakness for us! 
You dont see many Morgans about... which is a shame really as they are stunning horses. 
Jumping wise he is so honest and enjoys it so much its a shame not to let him have a go!


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## ester (6 August 2017)

I guess the judge would only stop you if they thought that he was unlevel? I wouldn't worry about them worrying about keeping to time if they do choose to stop you. Have you been stopped a lot previously?


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## milliepops (6 August 2017)

dominobrown said:



			He can scratch marks back in the walk as his walk is massive and really swinging with loads of overtrack.
		
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well that's great, at least you can play to his strengths. A friend of a friend has a horse that is bred to pace and he has a fabulous canter but is prone to a lateral walk, they're all so different.

It's a really interesting question and I wonder what the BD training would be on it, any trainees or judges on here? if  horse paces instead of trotting how would that be scored? as the definition of the pace for any movement in trot is that it must be a diagonal movement, I've just looked in the FEI guidelines for judging and it says that if the trot is nearly unrecognisable then that is a 1 out of 10 - fairly depressing if you have a horse that can slip into pacing but must be nigh-on impossible as a judge if you have to award 1s for something the rider is clearly trying to demonstrate? 

Sorry OP, it's an odd tangent but could explain the lack of comments a bit?


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## dominobrown (6 August 2017)

milliepops said:



			well that's great, at least you can play to his strengths. A friend of a friend has a horse that is bred to pace and he has a fabulous canter but is prone to a lateral walk, they're all so different.

It's a really interesting question and I wonder what the BD training would be on it, any trainees or judges on here? if  horse paces instead of trotting how would that be scored? as the definition of the pace for any movement in trot is that it must be a diagonal movement, I've just looked in the FEI guidelines for judging and it says that if the trot is nearly unrecognisable then that is a 1 out of 10 - fairly depressing if you have a horse that can slip into pacing but must be nigh-on impossible as a judge if you have to award 1s for something the rider is clearly trying to demonstrate? 

Sorry OP, it's an odd tangent but could explain the lack of comments a bit?
		
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I don't know, interesting though! Pacing is a weird one... tecunically is not truely cantering however, he is obedient, round supple etc and attempting the movement.

Ester- yes he was stopped a lot but not when there has been listed judges... one listed judge comment was that the unlevel strides come from him switching from a diagonal trot to lateral one, skipping behind which happened when tense. When I corrected him, he switches back to diagonal.  She was a very good judge to see this as to see it normal you have to analyse videos of him slowly!  
In the canter he does not look 'natural' unless you are jumping. My farrier thinks he has worn some sort of device to stop him cantering as he will try it then tense and go back to tranter. When he is jumping he canters normally most of the time as he is not thinking about it. He canters truely with his front legs and tends to canter with his hind legs out behind and then becomes out of time and it turns into a pace. When schooling i normally ask him to come back to trot and strike off immeadielty and he canters again andndo lots of exercise to get him to use his legs more. When doing polework he canters normally through the poles quite easily! 
For the 6 month to  a year he never cantered at all. In the field he would pace but the first time he cantered he was harassing my other horse by copying him and when my other horse cantered so did he!


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## SusieT (6 August 2017)

I have to say - I wouldn't have said anything to the judge - let them judge him on him - pacing is a fault not a lameness so they will simply mark him down for that. It's likely they marked you down as a complainer so may not have dared write anything on the sheet!
As for someone complaining he looked lame - he must have looked pretty bad imo for someone to complain, pacing is not a lameness to me. I wouldn't see what you could complain about? The vet checked him as they should and ok'd him - all well?

I think if you are going to compete a horse who paces you need to grow a tougher skin and not treat it as a 'speciality' - just ignore it and crack on accepting you won't get good dressage marks!


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## Irishdan (6 August 2017)

I think thats fantastic you are out eventing him. Had a friend at Pony Club back in the early 80s who competed with a Standard bred. Took her a while but the mare did become v good at dressage so stick with it. My partner has two gaited Rocky Mountains who I would love to take to Foreign Breed classes but he is too worried people will think there is something wrong with them due to their gaits, same goes for doing long distance rides. You are definitely at more of a disadvantage but that màkes your journey even more special. Do you have any photos &#55357;&#56842;


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## dominobrown (6 August 2017)

Thanks Susie and Irishdan.
Think you are right Susie.. . Just need to get on with it. If the course vet says he is fine and sound then there is nothing else I can do. 
I don't know how to put pictures up on here anymore. Looks wise he does look like a very flashy continental warmblood until he moves!


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## Goldenstar (6 August 2017)

I am pretty sure that judges are supposed to make some sort of comment either the judge was struggling to find something mildly encouraging to say or you seriously annoyed them by talking to them before the test which really is a no no .

I am confused as to why and who you would complain about on the xc thing would you rather organisers ignored people raising concerns you must admit a horse paces xc is an  unusual thing to see .
Surely is better to have horses checked out if concerns are raised .
Enjoy your horse as he is and I hope the canter is soon established .


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## dominobrown (6 August 2017)

I never complained to anyone about the cross country? I understand completely why there are vets etc and think it's a good idea.


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## ycbm (6 August 2017)

conniegirl said:



			You took a horse who paces into a class where they are expected to trot and canter in a decent outline and well balanced, what exactly were you expecting? If your horse cannot comfortably do the test in trot and canter then it was not ready for the competition.
		
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The horse was not ready to provide competition to the other entrants, true. But it didn't harm itself pacing in a dressage test and jumps like a stag and the rider and the horse both have a lot of fun.

It's BE80, please let's not 'professionalise' an event which is lower than most Riding Club events used to start at, back in the days when there were any!

It's about getting out there and doing it, not whether you can win or not.


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## Batgirl (6 August 2017)

From a judges point of view talking to me before a test is a bad idea - it serves no purpose other than make me think you want me to be generous, interrupt my thought process (even if I have finished writing the comments I am often reflecting and preparing for the next test) and if you are hovering waiting to talk to me it is very distracting.

A key part of dressage is rhythm - of the THREE paces within dressage.  If your horse is pacing then you will get poor marks, you have said yourself the rhythm goes to pot when he is switch from one to the other and frankly if a horse is doing that then any normal person would question its soundness - it is similar to disuniting in canter.  Having had vets say its sound doesn't make it look sound to others when he is switching between pacing and canter or trot.  I have ridden a pacer and I can feel your pain but you need to accept that it is an issue that you will have to deal with.

I would be grateful that people care enough to raise a concern about soundness of horses and accept that is is going to happen.


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## conniegirl (6 August 2017)

ycbm said:



			The horse was not ready to provide competition to the other entrants, true. But it didn't harm itself pacing in a dressage test and jumps like a stag and the rider and the horse both have a lot of fun.

It's BE80, please let's not 'professionalise' an event which is lower than most Riding Club events used to start at, back in the days when there were any!

It's about getting out there and doing it, not whether you can win or not.
		
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I wouldn't take a baby that can't canter properly and throw it in an open class, that's what walk trot tests and classes are for, Same goes imo for this situation.

IMO if you feel the need to prewarn the judge about your horse you are not ready for the competition.

It's one of the things you have to live with when you take on a pacer and want to do disciplines that require trot and canter.

the judge was probably annoyed at being interrupted before the test and then worried that they had a complainer on thier hands, so opted for the if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all approach. Having seen judges harangued and verbally abused for making comments I can see why they opted for that route.


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## ycbm (6 August 2017)

conniegirl said:



			I wouldn't take a baby that can't canter properly and throw it in an open class, that's what walk trot tests and classes are for, Same goes imo for this situation.
		
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The horse and rider love jumping. There are no walk and trot tests in eventing. Unaffiliated   XC and hunter trials are few and far between since BE introduced the lower heights, so BE80 is the only way this horse and rider can get that fix.

She's paying her substantial, entry fee.. She's not expecting to win. She just wants some fun.

Lighten up, it's two foot eight, not the Olympics 

BE80 and 90 have absolutely ruined a lot of people's fun. Twenty years ago I could do eight or  ten low key two foot nine cross country competitions every summer without travelling more than an hour. None of those competitions now exist.


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## dominobrown (6 August 2017)

That would make sense if I was rude and complained to the judge however as I said... "I am really sorry if he paces instead of canters but he is a pacer so there is nothing wrong with him and just mark accordingly. Sorry".
Not sure why I am a complainer as most judges would give critique such as if he was more supple, balanced etc, needs to work on this or that etc. Every judge I have ever ridden under in any event has always had a comment. Doesn't matter if tjey like you or your horse... They are there to make comment even if it is that they really don't like your horse and you should give up and shoot it as some people probably think.
I believe in being polite at all times and helpful where possible however I suppose some people don't feel the need!
I would like to go under that judge again with my other horse though.

Ycbm- there used to be loads organised by the hunts and pony clubs but have nearly all gone. Your lucky if there are 2 a year around here and the odd one there is often are bit dodgy. Like a rather large stone wall with dodgy approach and groudline. At least at BE you get proper courses, paramedics and vets on hand. If he actually was lame the vet seemed very good which puts your mind at rest!


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## FfionWinnie (6 August 2017)

I think what you said comes across as rather bossy. If you want to say something you should tell the steward that you've been stopped a couple of times because sometimes your horse paces and in the short amount of time the judge has, they may stop the test thinking he is lame.  Frankly pacing does look like a lameness if you aren't used to looking at it. I saw one horse doing it show jumping and it took me several minutes to realise what it was actually doing and I've ridden a pacer before. It looks a lot worse than it feels!

Personally I would stick to unaffiliated with the horse until it's more settled into the work as it's so expensive to do BE as a training exercise - you could do a lot of other competitions and xc hires for the same money and perhaps have a nicer time.


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## dominobrown (6 August 2017)

I dont think it came over bossy at all. Also as above there are barely any unaffilated events and I do have a nice time and I pleased the horse. He has done all the local cross country courses now too.


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## FfionWinnie (6 August 2017)

Clearly the judge didn't agree but it seems you know best so crack on!


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## conniegirl (6 August 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			Clearly the judge didn't agree but it seems you know best so crack on!
		
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Agree! Some people just won't listen.

Btw I know of 6 unafilliated huntertrials/ode/xc competitions within 50 miles of me within the next 5 weeks. They are out there you just have to look for them


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## SO1 (6 August 2017)

If your horse moves in a way that makes dressage judges or any other judge or official believe that your horse is lame then perhaps as others have said until you can correct the way of going to that required for the dressage phase you may have to take a hit at some competitions.

In the same way people who have horses that spook or buck or rear when tense have to continue going and out and practising until the horse becomes more relaxed I guess you just have to do the same.

Could you try arena eventing which does not involve dressage?

It is absolutely right that any official who has concerns about the soundness of a horse competing should raise this. If you have a horse that moves in a way that may mean that people think the horse is unsound then unfortunately that may be a price you have to pay for owning an non standard horse and competing in classes that the horse has not been bred or originally trained for. At some point if you continue with correct training the horse will no longer be tense and pace so it should not be something you have to put up with long term.


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## Boulty (6 August 2017)

Unsure on this as I don't event but if you've been stopped mid-test before and that's what you're trying to avoid could you maybe put a note with your entry asking for the judge to be made aware that he may pace when tense and a request for them not to pull you up if he does.  Obviously if he paces rather than showing trot or canter then you'll still lose the marks but if you're trying to avoid being stopped mid-test then may be an option to look at. Re being checked after the XC if someone voices a concern they do have to look into it.


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## honetpot (6 August 2017)

I once wrote at PC dressage were the judge rubbished a horse that did a poor test. After I had listened to her comments, I said 'I think it probably jumps well'. As I also did some XC jump judging later, I saw it jump and then later on went and checked it SJ score, it was clear in both phases. Well I would rather have something that jumps well at BE than does a good dressage score, if it does not do the first well you could get a nasty splat.
  Lots of natives/cobs  do dressage and never really get rewarded for the work, when really more training has gone into producing them. The better judges usually do affiliated events so I can understand why you would wish to continue competing BE. Sooner or later just about every official locally will have seen him and got used to his action, or he will established his trot/canter, in the meantime just pat yourself on the back and think how well you are doing.
  I hate the snobbery of horses, that you have to have the 'right' horse for the right job, when really most of us have to enjoy and work with what we have. Just continue to enjoy what you have, others that have paid of lot of money will not be having half the fun, so that's something to feel good about.


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## dominobrown (6 August 2017)

I did that boulty and put in the notes for the commentator however I know people are busy at these things and have hundreds of runners so probably don't check.
I suppose I don't mind a vet check at the end of cross country ... He trots up sound as he is, has no lumps or bumps so I have nothing to hide. I think as more people become familiar with different types eventing, more now as there are lower levels, they will probably see more paced and standardbreds etc. 
I am not a particular fan of a standardbred however they are generally lovely natured horses that rarely have a future out of racing which is quite sad really.  Anyways... having a horse like this I believe has improved my riding and understand of biomechanics of horses so hey ho!


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## clairebearnz (7 August 2017)

Standardbreds are pretty common down here (New Zealand) especially at the lower levels. Blyth Tait's Delta had Standardbred blood and the characteristic four-beat canter. My pony mare is probably part Standy and has an impressive four-beat canter when she wants to. They do get marked down for pacing or lacking a true canter in the dressage.


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## paddi22 (7 August 2017)

i've a trotter and i've kept her at walk trot tests so far as I didn't see the point of entering tests she wasn't able for at the time. When we attempt a 'normal' test next month id imagine we will only get a short canter strike off. But im happy that she's at least competent to try the move and thats why i entered the walk/trot tests, I just think its fairer on her and we have more time betwen moves to get her rhytmn. Having done a lot of writing for judges there is nothing more annoying than someone coming up giving you the horses history. The judge just marks the movement in front of her, she doesn't need the horses life history.  I just go in and expect dressage to be our weakest phase until she improves.  Mine gets marked down on her way of going, mainly on rhythm. It's getting better, but we will have a lot of dodgy dressage scores for the foreseeable future so I just kind of write it off! You still have two strong phases in the eventing though, so don't worry! Well done on retraining yours, they are super horses!


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## dominobrown (7 August 2017)

Thanks. I think everyone is right as to regards just to get on with it and if I get stopped by the dressage judge I will have a vets letter in my pocket. Also of he decides he is going to canter normally then the judge won't be looking for it so actually may get better marks.

As for going to events.. . I never take him by himself, I am going anyways with my bog standard ISH to do a bigger class like the 100 so he might as well come for the ride. This weekend I had to drop off a lovely Connie pony I had sold to its new home on the way.


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## DabDab (7 August 2017)

Oh that's a tricky situation....a horse switching between pacing and true would look like it was lame unless you were forewarned what you were looking at. And there is no real way to forewarn the judge with seeming rude or like you're making excuses before you even start. 

Personally I think that o would just take the hit and try to become really good at restarting a test part way through by practicing at home - I mean the chances are that if you've been stopped for pacing then you're not heading for a great mark anyway so just get it out of the way and onto the jumping.


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## ycbm (7 August 2017)

conniegirl said:



			Agree! Some people just won't listen.

Btw I know of 6 unafilliated huntertrials/ode/xc competitions within 50 miles of me within the next 5 weeks. They are out there you just have to look for them
		
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The OP has listened to the advice that she should not talk to the judge before she starts her test.


You seem to want her to take this horse to a different venue from her BE100 horse just so that she doesn't offend some people who think she should be taking a BE80 more seriously.

What is your hang up about people who just want to have a bit of fun at a two foot eight ODE? We aren't all out to win when we go to these events, she's not breaking any rules, being unfair to any other competitors, and her money is the same as anyone else's.

Well done for getting out there, OP, it's the money from 'ordinary' horses like yours that keeps BE afloat. Have fun!


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## conniegirl (7 August 2017)

ycbm said:



			What is your hang up about people who just want to have a bit of fun at a two foot eight ODE? We aren't all out to win when we go to these events, she's not breaking any rules, being unfair to any other competitors, and her money is the same as anyone else's.
		
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I have no problem with her taking the horse out if that is what she wants to do, what I do have a problem with is threads like this moaning about being pulled for a vet check when she knew all along it might have been an issue and moaning about the dressage judge again when she knew it would be an issue. 
by all means go out and do it but for gods sake dont moan about it when the expected happens. If you dont want to be vet checked dont take the horse out untill it doesnt pace, if you dont want a judge to potentially stop you mid test then dont take the horse out untill it doesnt pace. Dont make excuses, dont piss off the judge and then moan about it later.


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## dominobrown (7 August 2017)

agree with Conniegirl... making excuses all the time is not on. I don't mind getting a bad mark or even getting pulled mid test for pacing although it's annoying though my original moan was the lack of feedback from the judge. Any feedback is appreciated as only by getting the opinion of others and getting critism can I improve. Its all very well trundling around at home thinking you are great but the whole point of dressage (in my mind) is to go out and improve your scored, listen to the feedback of the judge and try and improve on that. 
I also expressed frustration with people in general who can't recognise a pacer.... however there is a gap in knowledge for most people... Obviously... As you don't see many out and about in this country and moist people will have never come across one.
As for vet checks... good, you have one at the end of every endurance ride and after every cross country at a 3 day so it's not unusual... and as I said the horse is sound so I have nothing to hide.


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## wingedhorse (7 August 2017)

Shay said:



			I'm with JenBags.  Approaching the dressage judge before the test was at best impolite and definitely something not to repeat.  I'm not at all surprised there were no comments on the sheet.  I think you'll have to chalk that one up to experience.  However you may well have been observed speaking to the judge when you should not have which might have been the driving factor behind the later concern?
		
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It is not inappropriate to speak to the dressage judge before an event. Though it does depend what you say. And you should not say anything that might influence the judging. For example it would be acceptable to say in a prelim in straight dressage, I'm not going to canter on the left rein today, please don't ring the bell, as I am just here to give the horse an outing and left canter isn't organised yet. Or to say my horse has got terribly upset in the warm up and is a baby, so I am just going to trot the canter movements, and treat it as a schooling outing, please don't call out an error of course.

I have had an occasion (affiliated medium test) where my horse lost plot in canter. I already knew the rider after me had withdrawn. After my test I went up to judge and asked if I could school in the test arena for five minutes to work the resistance through, until next horse appeared on the walkway. She said fine.


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## Casey76 (7 August 2017)

Blimey - over here you always go and introduce yourself to the judge before a dressage test; you also go and introduce yourself to the jury panel when SJing too.


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## Fragglerock (7 August 2017)

honetpot said:



			I once wrote at PC dressage were the judge rubbished a horse that did a poor test. After I had listened to her comments, I said 'I think it probably jumps well'. As I also did some XC jump judging later, I saw it jump and then later on went and checked it SJ score, it was clear in both phases. Well I would rather have something that jumps well at BE than does a good dressage score, if it does not do the first well you could get a nasty splat..
		
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That sounds like my horse   Rubbish dressage because he would boil over, once had 35% but a double clear meant he came home with a rosette in a class of over 40.  If you want to compete at XC nowadays it seems you have to do eventing.  As previously said any pure hunter trials are very few and far between


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## wingedhorse (7 August 2017)

milliepops said:



			well that's great, at least you can play to his strengths. A friend of a friend has a horse that is bred to pace and he has a fabulous canter but is prone to a lateral walk, they're all so different.

It's a really interesting question and I wonder what the BD training would be on it, any trainees or judges on here? if  horse paces instead of trotting how would that be scored? as the definition of the pace for any movement in trot is that it must be a diagonal movement, I've just looked in the FEI guidelines for judging and it says that if the trot is nearly unrecognisable then that is a 1 out of 10 - fairly depressing if you have a horse that can slip into pacing but must be nigh-on impossible as a judge if you have to award 1s for something the rider is clearly trying to demonstrate? 

Sorry OP, it's an odd tangent but could explain the lack of comments a bit?
		
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Ive done a fair bit of BD writing and just started training to be a BD judge. 

I think the mark would a be influenced by how much of the movement in trot was irregular. So if covered 20 metres in the movement and only a few irregular steps, would be higher than if the majority of the movement was irregular and not trot when would be 4 or less.

I also think BE 80 / Prelim tend to be fairly forgiving judging. 

I also think relatively few judges IME stop horses for being lame, if it is at all grey, most write unlevel steps shown on the moment / in collectives. Different if a horse is hopping lame. I always remember seeing a very unlevel advanced medium horse in test, and wondering why judge didn't stop it. Came into next class and looked fine. Think was horse and rider tension. 

Most judges IME mark same way for e.g. BTV  a few moments has little impact on mark. BTV for most of movement and most knock of a mark or two. Irregularity of pace would be a more severe error in my understanding.


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## Tiddlypom (7 August 2017)

IME of horses appearing 'off' or uncontrollable in the dressage phase of BE, the dressage judge will send a message to the chief dressage steward, who will in turn forwarn the SJ stewards, who will keep a very close eye on it in the SJ. Only if it appears ok in the SJ wil it be allowed to start x country.

Quite often it's the rider's nerves and tension which cause the unlevel steps, so once out of the white boards, the horse becomes sound again . Quote from official reporting back to dressage judge who I was scribing for 'Once she'd stopped hanging onto its front end and it could move, it was fine.'

I'm glad we're all agreed that it is correct to report an apparently lame horse. IME organisers and judges go out of their way to give competitors every chance at low level BE.


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## ycbm (7 August 2017)

the whole point of dressage (in my mind) is to go out and improve your scored, listen to the feedback of the judge and try and improve on that. [/quote]

The OPs complaint was that the judge gave no feedback.  (She was wrong to complain about being reported for a potential lame horse, though).

For many eventers at low levels, like I was, the object of the dressage was to not get eliminated so that you could get your jumping fix


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## Farma (7 August 2017)

I just wanted to add to this, about 2 years ago ish there was a letter that went out to judges about the used of the wording, if the paces are uneven, irregular, unlevel, or whatever you want to call them (not clear lameness but uneven steps) and the judges feel that they need to comment on it more than 4 times they are to pull the rider up. The rider has the choice to continue but at the risk of heavily penalised scores as the rhythm (1st scale of training) is not being met.
If the horse is pacing and not in a regular rhythm this may be being applied to you? I don't have the letter any more but I remember it very clearly as I had an issue with irregularity that was raised with BD.


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## DressageCob (7 August 2017)

I would never speak up to the judge before the test. It just starts you off on a bad foot. My horse is a non-standard dressage horse. I could easily say "don't worry if he doesn't work properly over his back, he's built for driving" but that's not really the point. I'd rather the judge had a blank slate and judged what was in front of them. Plus it's just bad form. 

Having said that, a comment-less dressage sheet is so unhelpful. I've had a couple of them myself, and it is so frustrating. How are you supposed to learn if the judge doesn't tell you where you can improve? On the other hand, if at the start of the test you effectively tell the judge what he/she is or isn't allowed to comment upon, it does make it rather more difficult.


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## Theocat (8 August 2017)

wingedhorse said:



			It is not inappropriate to speak to the dressage judge before an event. Though it does depend what you say. And you should not say anything that might influence the judging. For example it would be acceptable to say in a prelim in straight dressage, I'm not going to canter on the left rein today, please don't ring the bell, as I am just here to give the horse an outing and left canter isn't organised yet. Or to say my horse has got terribly upset in the warm up and is a baby, so I am just going to trot the canter movements, and treat it as a schooling outing, please don't call out an error of course.

I have had an occasion (affiliated medium test) where my horse lost plot in canter. I already knew the rider after me had withdrawn. After my test I went up to judge and asked if I could school in the test arena for five minutes to work the resistance through, until next horse appeared on the walkway. She said fine.
		
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Agree with this- I've said exactly this before tests, once as rider and once as reader, and the judges have been incredibly supportive. You are effectively ruling yourself out, though, rather than making excuses!

From the wording used this time, though, I can see why a judge might have interpreted it differently to how it was meant.


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## Bernster (8 August 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Quite often it's the rider's nerves and tension which cause the unlevel steps, so once out of the white boards, the horse becomes sound again . Quote from official reporting back to dressage judge who I was scribing for 'Once she'd stopped hanging onto its front end and it could move, it was fine.'
		
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Hah, quite.  We ventured out to our first ODE last weekend and got a decent score (32) despite a rather tense test.  Then on the walk back to the lorry he did the most fabulous loose active free walk on a long rein.  Pah.


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## Notimetoride (9 August 2017)

You might just need to rise above it.  In the horse world, often things which are a little unusual are really not well accepted.   I used to sj a pacer.  Imagine that !!   Crikey did her legs get in a muddle sometimes.  But we left the poles up and actually did rather well.  In fact on one occasion, after we had jumped our round, someone offered to buy her.  They were obviously able to see round her pacing and could see that she was a pretty decent jumper.   I was quite young, and felt so frustrated (sometime embarrassed) that this horse would rarely canter nicely round like the others, but we happily jumped 2ft 6 classes and were often in the ribbons.   We did sj and xc and had a great time with her, so i say accept your horses shorcomings, and enjoy what she has to offer (but accept you'll get some negativity sometimes)


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## tristar (9 August 2017)

the judge spoke to me once as i went in, i forgot to take the boots off!


well done for getting out with him, we have  rescue cob cross trotter here, and is he gorgeous!, he`s only 2 years but very lively and really jumps out at you with that look at me i`m special face!

he seems to canter normally and i`ve never seen him pace or break.

i think a judge should have sympathy for people who have good intentions, i think to point out the horse paces is sensible, and lack of experience or knowledge is no excuse for making a vet check on a sound horse that paces.

people take horses out for training purposes and should be encouraged and helped.


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## Tiddlypom (9 August 2017)

tristar said:



			lack of experience or knowledge is no excuse for making a vet check on a sound horse that paces.
		
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Erm, so if a horse is seen at a competition moving in a very unconventional and weird manner, you expect no official, volunteer or spectator to think that it may be unsound, and report it? That's rather naïve.

Like many folk, I've never knowingly seen a pacer under saddle. I've only seen them being driven on the race track in their special harnesses that encourage/force them to pace.


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## tristar (9 August 2017)

i knew someone would say that, but maybe  a VET??  might have seen a pacer, for god sake!


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## Tiddlypom (9 August 2017)

The course vet said that the horse was sound, I believe?


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## Lanky Loll (9 August 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			Erm, so if a horse is seen at a competition moving in a very unconventional and weird manner, you expect no official, volunteer or spectator to think that it may be unsound, and report it? That's rather naïve.

Like many folk, I've never knowingly seen a pacer under saddle. *I've only seen them being driven on the race track in their special harnesses that encourage/force them to pace.*

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GAHHHHH hopples do not force them to pace, pacers pace in the field as foals.  Sorry but that sort of comment really gets my goat!  They assist with balance at speed and are used in saddle races as well as in the cart.
OP fair play to you, retraining a standie is never simple but they are usually genuine souls and will try their heart out for you.
The gait is unusual and to those that haven't seen it before the horse may well seem hopping lame - as they appear nod when they pace it will sound alarm bells in those that do not know.  Fair play to the vet for recognising what it is.
With regards to rhythm, arguably they are still in a two beat gait - just not a diagonal one   I probably wouldn't have spoken to the judge but would also be gutted at the lack of comment .   To help with keeping the trot consistent try and keep it as slow as possible - most won't "flick over" to pacing until going at a reasonable speed, unless you allow them to do the standie shuffle which they'll do at a little faster than trot


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## dominobrown (9 August 2017)

We are getting theee. Been doing lots of hill work recently to get him to push more from behind. 
He has had a horrendous life... god knows where he has come from... we think around Blackpool and he was not raced offically but on the roads as a 2 year old and a appleby etc. He was then kept in an allotment and was in a stable/ shed 24/7 for year. And I mean not even tkaen out to be mucked out etc. I beleive some of his previous owners have been banned from keepijg horses etc. He was owned by someone who was depressed and got him as a 3 year old stallion as their first horse because he looked nice. He should be a really nasty horse bit ue still has a great attitude to people. He was only gelded when he came to me and he had never had his back feet touched. He was actually walking on the inside hoof walls like people with wrecked ugg boots do.


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## Lanky Loll (9 August 2017)

Poor chap  sounds like he's landed on his feet.  I take it you've checked for a microchip?


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## dominobrown (9 August 2017)

Yes... it matches his passport and he only has one recorded owner when he was a 3 year old. What a faff with the passport  agency as they wanted to know who owned him in the 3 years... they where all travelling types so it was impossible to trace and the lady in the passport office was getting miffed with me as no one had any addresses and I couldnt get real names of people!


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## Lanky Loll (9 August 2017)

I was asking as STAGBI expect you to microchip as foals so you might have been able to get some history / background from them but obviously not in this case - tis a shame.  Best of luck with him, I know of at least one Standie X that's gone round Novice BE ;-)


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## Tiddlypom (9 August 2017)

OP, I again congratulate you on doing a great job with your horse, after his very poor start in life.



Lanky Loll said:



			GAHHHHH hopples do not force them to pace, pacers pace in the field as foals.  Sorry but that sort of comment really gets my goat!  They assist with balance at speed and are used in saddle races as well as in the cart.
		
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Ok, but those 'hopples' (thought you'd made a typo, that's a new word to me ) look like a rather extreme training aid to the lay person. There used to be affilated dressage competitions in the land adjacent to Tir Prince Raceway in Towyn, N.Wales. I used to do rather well there because my horse stayed steady when the sulkies came out on the track to train, and other horses just removed themselves from the area!

Do you want your goat back, now .


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## Lanky Loll (9 August 2017)

Ta &#128523; some of the best racing in the country at Tir Prince. If you can look up Saunders Jr -  used to win freelegged and giving the others 50yards amazing horse


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## Apercrumbie (9 August 2017)

I think we also need to remember that the horse in question is hopping in and out of pacing as he is tense. That is a classic sign of lameness in a non-pacing horse and looks stilted and bizarre. Straight pacing looks very different and probably wouldn't be criticised for a lameness reason.

Point is, I don't see any point in being annoyed that someone thinks the horse is lame. From what the OP has described, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me.


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## dominobrown (9 August 2017)

The course phtographer pointed out when he paces and changes back. At an uaffilated I took him in (before he went BE) he took a series of photos of him changing from pacing to canter to jump out of interest. It was really useful to see. 
The ability to pace is due to a gene... in my quest to dind out to re train these horses I got talking to a lady who breeds and competes icelandic ponies. She gave me a long history of the gait (obviously very passionate about it) but said there is no way you can train a horse not to do it full stop. My horse reverts back to it when unsure or tense and probably always will but obviously the less he is unsecure and tense the less he will do it, but could always do it at liberty in the field etc.
Although it looks awful its actually really easy to sit to.


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## Vodkagirly (11 August 2017)

Where are you?  I'm up north as well Nd may be able to point you in the direction of unaffiliated events while you work on the dressage.


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## claracanter (12 August 2017)

I can understand how frustrating it must be to get the looks and comments but if you get out as much as you can people will know who you and your horse. They only see a snap shot whereas you know the whole of the journey you have been on. I think someone suggested a note from your vet and I agree that would be a good idea. You could keep it in your pocket and whip it out when needed.
I think it's great you are taking a non-typical horse out eventing.Keep at it.


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## Orangehorse (12 August 2017)

Gaited horses were historically the preferred means of transport, as they were so comfortable to ride for long distances.

Ironically it was probably the arrival of dressage and carriage horses that looked smarter with a diagonal trot that meant that most gaited horses disappeared in Europe.  In Iceland where they are still ridden over long distances and in the USA and other New World Countries the gaited breeds live on.


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## Shazzababs (17 August 2017)

WRT speak to the judge in advance, I have a horse who is 1 tenth mechanically lame behind due to scar tissue left from when he dislocated his stifle as a youngster (we have a vet certificate).  

When I used to event him (unaffiliated), I used to ask the secretary to include a note to the dressage judge with my score sheet.  I didn't stop me loosing a mark per movement for our trot work (still got 7's), but it did stop them hooting at me mid test.  

We quite often used to have to visit the onsite vet either before or after we went XC (especially at the local 2 day),  but it normally went along the lines of 'oh its you...' lets just check he's his usual self then.


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## MissTyc (17 August 2017)

Fascinating thread. I have a gaited mare , and it's been a challenge! 
Like the OP, I have worked very very hard to teach her not to pace. It's just like teaching a horse not to canter when you want it to trot and not to trot when you want it to walk, etc ... It's just an added gait. Instrumental for us was a very talented dressage trainer. My mare is now 7 and scored 67% in her last BE80 with some lovely comments. "Some irregularity of footfall" was the worst comment, and that was in the downward  canter to walk transition - always the most difficult for us! 

I have never spoken to a judge before a test. I have never been pulled out of a test although I have been pulled up for a vet check. I take it as my challenge to help my mare learn to move in a way that doesn't attract (too much) attention. Like the OP's horse, mine always paces more in the exciting phases. Legs tangle up and it turns into footfall mayhem. Again, mine is not pacing much any more but she's still quite cheerful to run a full course disunited or frequently switching any time the ground undulates. In training she doesn't do it so much since we can focus on it with a cooler mind. 

Keep at it, OP. They are loving, willing horses. Just need extra training wheels!


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## dominobrown (17 August 2017)

You sound interesting MissTyc- haha. It is hard to teach them not to do it... its his go-to if he is unsure about something. Again at home he can canter fairly well. What exercises etc have you done with your horse? I am always interested in what other people do. Its especially hard around here as most people/ instructors etc have never come  across one nevermind retrained.


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## MissTyc (18 August 2017)

dominobrown said:



			You sound interesting MissTyc- haha. It is hard to teach them not to do it... its his go-to if he is unsure about something. Again at home he can canter fairly well. What exercises etc have you done with your horse? I am always interested in what other people do. Its especially hard around here as most people/ instructors etc have never come  across one nevermind retrained.
		
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I was lucky to find a trainer  who had retrained a standardbred pacer to Advanced so she already had tricks up her sleeve. For the canter, I certainly find lots of polework helps, but more generally the pacers seem to be built with a lot of forward thrust and less upwards impulsion, so getting my mare strong through her frame has been the key ingredient. I ask for a pace out hacking as it's sooo comfortable but I rarel;y ask her in the school as I don't want her to think it's a schooling thing. That helped as well ... all the standard baby horse foundational work but for years and years. Mine is now 7 going on 4.


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