# horse died at riding club hunter trial



## Gembo (25 April 2011)

i was at our local riding clubs annual hunter trial today and a horse died. apparently it was quite elderly but it suffered a heart attack half way around the course.  i was shocked as you just dont think things like this happen at little local events you imagine it more at badminton or the grand national


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## doratheexplorer (25 April 2011)

Thats very sad, thought to all those involved. I know you never expect it to happen to you, but its tragic when it happens so close to home. Do you know if the rider is ok/was hurt??


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## Gembo (25 April 2011)

the rider was fine but i feel so sorry for them i mean imagine having to go home with an empty trailer/lorry


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## stencilface (25 April 2011)

Sad, but it does happen.

I remember one had a heart attack at a local HT 15 years ago, horse fell on the rider and she was airlifted to hospital 

At the same event the same year, a pony fell on the course, shattered its shoulder and had to be PTS.  This was not a taxing course either.


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## Louby (25 April 2011)

How awful.  Poor horse and owner, they must be devastated.

I remember when I was a teenager at a RC XC and a horse broke its leg.  The poor girl held him until the vet came to PTS.  It was so upsetting.


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## Wagtail (25 April 2011)

Why is someone competing an elderly horse?


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## Gembo (25 April 2011)

so sad wasnt a particulary hard course either  so devastating but it least it was quick and doing what it loved


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## Mrs B (25 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Why is someone competing an elderly horse?
		
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Why not? Age doesn't have much to do with it: fitness and preparation might well, but in the end a heart attack happens when it does.

I do feel for the owners though. Very sad for them.


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## stencilface (25 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Why is someone competing an elderly horse?
		
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I think the elderly part is neither here or there tbh, any horse can have a heart attack.

I've seen a 34 yo pony go round a small HT - seemed to enjoy himself, why write something off if they clearly enjoy themselves and are capable? One horse competing at Badminton (went clear xc) was 18 - is that elderly?


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## 3Beasties (25 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Why is someone competing an elderly horse?
		
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Errr, why not?



Such a sad shame, glad the rider was unharmed (physically!). 

At least it would have been quick for the horse, RIP Special one xxx


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## babymare (25 April 2011)

eldery? ummmmm know many horses and ponies competeing into thier teens and beyond and loving it - its down to fitness and condition - spring along at 19(? sure was his age) was fit and looking damn fine and ready for badminton but collapsed and died on course. so at what age do we wrap them up incotton wool - but my thoughts are with the owners/rider - your loss must be awful and my thoughts are with you - hope you find peace with your memories xxxxx


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## RuthnMeg (25 April 2011)

Sad as it is, it happens. When our farm hosted a mini HT (1ft - 2ft3'') we had a horse fatality. A 6 yr old TB, just walking around getting used to the sights, and boom, down he went. I remember a lady screaming for someone to come and do something, another person ushering kids out of the way, muttering something about a horse having a roll (good idea perhaps?) and the owner/rider just standing there looking a tad white. (she knew what was happening, experienced national hunt connections). 
We had to shield the body using cars, someone came over with a tarporline, and the day continued. It had to. Just wasn't expecting it.
Just for the record, the drive home with an empty box IS the worst bit. Then its the empty stable at home. 
Poor horses. Poor connections.


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## diggerbez (26 April 2011)

oh no how sad. this happened to a friend of mine once, her horse had won the class (having tanked round with her) and then he had a heart attack back at the box. he was fit and healthy despite his age...same as all these fit and healthy septegenarian people who suddenly drop down dead.... 

thoughts with all connections, glad the rider is ok


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## EAST KENT (26 April 2011)

And strangely enough it is just as bad for National Hunt owners and connections too!


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## thatsmygirl (26 April 2011)

Yes is it east Kent, after working in racing for many years you don't just enjoy your job but you love the horses you deal with day in day out and a death off a horse is felt by everybody ESP the trainer and grooms who make the horses who they are. been there before and came home from the racers without my best horse, you watch the race, horse falls and the shield goes up and you feel sick and your heart goes.


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## cob&onion (26 April 2011)

Sad 
There was a lady a about 10 years back who lost 2 horses in one year, one bolted and got trapped in a cattle grid and had to be PTS, same year her daughter was on her pony on the beach and pony had heart attack and collapsed  awful it was.......


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Why is someone competing an elderly horse?
		
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perhaps they had a day off from eating babies and skinning puppies?


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## Tnavas (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Why is someone competing an elderly horse?
		
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Why not - what would you class as elderly? Many Olympic Eventers are in their late teens.

Sadly these things happen - I've know a few that have gone with heart attacks in the middle of a competition. Not always elderly either.

Very sad for the owners though, I lost one of mine with a broken leg at a show and it is traumatic for everyone.


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## minkymoo (26 April 2011)

My friends horse had a heart attack whilst she was out hacking. really really sad 

Depends what your definition of 'elderly' is doesn't it. I don't think even 18 is that old, look at Lenamore, I think he did far better coping with the XC course than some of those younger than him.


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## Wagtail (26 April 2011)

Obviously this 'elderly' horse was not fit enough or had a heart problem that meant that cross country was too much for him. There is a difference between competing an older fit horse at events where there is a heavy vet presence and checks, and the small riding club events where some people take out their old horse that has ben turned out 24/7 and ridden once a week. Not saying this was the case here, but it is a common enough occurance.


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## Thistle (26 April 2011)

Not necessarily.


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## Wagtail (26 April 2011)

I don't know. If you say a horse has a possible lifespan of 30 years, and humans of 90 years, then competing a 20 year old is the equivalent of competing a 60 year old person alongside people in their twenties and thirties. I just think that there comes a time when we should allow our horses to take it easy. Yes, there are exceptions, but any 60 year old will tell you they don't have the energy they used to and have lots of aches and pains. The heart ages too.


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Obviously this 'elderly' horse was not fit enough or had a heart problem that meant that cross country was too much for him. There is a difference between competing an older fit horse at events where there is a heavy vet presence and checks, and the small riding club events where some people take out their old horse that has ben turned out 24/7 and ridden once a week. Not saying this was the case here, but it is a common enough occurance.
		
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I would say it was an extremely UNcommon occurrence, and that it is not at all 'obvious' that this horse was either unfit or had a known heart condition, and that some people really are a bit small minded and vindictive. 

What's your professional opinion on Spring Along?


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I don't know. If you say a horse has a possible lifespan of 30 years, and humans of 90 years, then competing a 20 year old is the equivalent of competing a 60 year old person alongside people in their twenties and thirties. I just think that there comes a time when we should allow our horses to take it easy. Yes, there are exceptions, but any 60 year old will tell you they don't have the energy they used to and have lots of aches and pains. The heart ages too.
		
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Yeh, for goodness sake, it would be like a 55 year old riding like Badminton.

Oh. Wait.


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## MelenR (26 April 2011)

Sadly my horse, Tommy Brown passed away yesterday at a hunter trial competition in Cambridge. He collapsed towards the end of the course and up until then he showed no signs of any problems and was enjoying himself. I did walk/trot most of the course as it was a hot day and a long course, although he did become a bit over exuberant coming towards home. At least he went doing something he enjoyed. He was 15 years old and was otherwise very fit and healthy and had not shown any previous signs of having any problems; competing at the same competition last year and being placed at local competitions only a few weeks ago. 
I have owned him for over 2 years now and he has been such a star. He loved hacking out and jumping and was a pleasure to be around, hell be missed by all that knew him.
RIP Tommy, Ill miss you.


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

MelenR said:



			Sadly my horse, Tommy Brown passed away yesterday at a hunter trial competition in Cambridge. He collapsed towards the end of the course and up until then he showed no signs of any problems and was enjoying himself. I did walk/trot most of the course as it was a hot day and a long course, although he did become a bit over exuberant coming towards home. At least he went doing something he enjoyed. He was 15 years old and was otherwise very fit and healthy and had not shown any previous signs of having any problems; competing at the same competition last year and being placed at local competitions only a few weeks ago. 
I have owned him for over 2 years now and he has been such a star. He loved hacking out and jumping and was a pleasure to be around, hell be missed by all that knew him.
RIP Tommy, Ill miss you.
		
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Sympathies, MelenR, and you are quite right, he was enjoying himself on a lovely day, what more could any of us ask.


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## MollyMoomin (26 April 2011)

I'm so sorry MelenR, RIP Tommy *hugs*


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## TGM (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Obviously this 'elderly' horse was not fit enough or had a heart problem that meant that cross country was too much for him.
		
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There is no 'obviously' about it at all!  Young horses are also known to drop dead suddenly as well, so there is no way you can automatically blame the horse's age for his death.




			If you say a horse has a possible lifespan of 30 years, and humans of 90 years, then competing a 20 year old is the equivalent of competing a 60 year old person alongside people in their twenties and thirties. I just think that there comes a time when we should allow our horses to take it easy. Yes, there are exceptions, but any 60 year old will tell you they don't have the energy they used to and have lots of aches and pains.
		
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Many over 60s compete alongside younger competitors in quite exerting sports.  There were 157 *over 70s* who finished in this year's London Marathon, which is much more strenuous for a human than a local hunter trial is for a horse!


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## alligator40 (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Obviously this 'elderly' horse was not fit enough
		
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How on earth can you say that with conviction?
Do you know said horse?


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## MurphysMinder (26 April 2011)

So sorry for your loss MelenR, RIP Tommy.

Wagtail, please don't consign all 60 year old people to the scrapheap, I'm not too far off 60 and don't actually feel ready to be put out to grass just yet.


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## sleepingdragon10 (26 April 2011)

MelenR said:



			Sadly my horse, Tommy Brown passed away yesterday at a hunter trial competition in Cambridge. He collapsed towards the end of the course and up until then he showed no signs of any problems and was enjoying himself. I did walk/trot most of the course as it was a hot day and a long course, although he did become a bit over exuberant coming towards home. At least he went doing something he enjoyed. He was 15 years old and was otherwise very fit and healthy and had not shown any previous signs of having any problems; competing at the same competition last year and being placed at local competitions only a few weeks ago. 
I have owned him for over 2 years now and he has been such a star. He loved hacking out and jumping and was a pleasure to be around, hell be missed by all that knew him.
RIP Tommy, Ill miss you.
		
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So sorry for your loss MelenR, you must be in bits 
Ignore any small minded comments, you knew your boy, you knew what he was capable of.

RIP Tommy Brown xx


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

MurphysMinder said:



			So sorry for your loss MelenR, RIP Tommy.

Wagtail, please don't consign all 60 year old people to the scrapheap, I'm not too far off 60 and don't actually feel ready to be put out to grass just yet. 

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You and that Mark Todd, MurphysMinder, you ought to know better. Get down the Darby and Joan right now and start dribbling down your cardis, the pair of you, and stop doing ridiculous things like winning Badminton which should be the province of the young, this minute.


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## MurphysMinder (26 April 2011)

Damn, hoped no one had noticed the dribble.  Will pop along to D & J later, going running with the dog first.


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## Kenzo (26 April 2011)

OP, sorry to hear you had to see that, very sad for the family concerned.

Totally agree, as others have said, just one of things that happens, could happen to any horse no matter what age or fitness, obviously there is greater chance of it happening with an older unfit horse but nobody can say that was the case and it's very unfair to make that assumption.


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

MurphysMinder said:



			Damn, hoped no one had noticed the dribble.  Will pop along to D & J later, going running with the dog first. 

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OK MM, give my best to Toddy if he stays awake for the Bingo.


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## Ranyhyn (26 April 2011)

Ban riding club!!!!!!! 

RIP neddy, what a shame.


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## Echo Bravo (26 April 2011)

My horse was 11 years old when he had a heart attack and he was doing what he enjoyed most, eating grass, as someone said they can go at anytime and I'd had him from 15 months of age. At lest he went quik and happy. So sorry for owner as she's lost a friend.


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## Baggybreeches (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Obviously this 'elderly' horse was not fit enough or had a heart problem that meant that cross country was too much for him. There is a difference between competing an older fit horse at events where there is a heavy vet presence and checks, and the small riding club events where some people take out their old horse that has ben turned out 24/7 and ridden once a week. Not saying this was the case here, but it is a common enough occurance.
		
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Please dont talk such rubbish!
I lost a fit and healthy 10yr old TB on Saturday, he dropped like a stone in the parade ring after finishing a p2p perfectly well, I also used to hunt and xc my 32yr old pony who was as fit as a fiddle until her eyesight became impaired.
A vet doesn't make a jot of difference to a horse having a heart attack, whether there is one or a hundred of them.


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## lochpearl (26 April 2011)

MelenR said:



			Sadly my horse, Tommy Brown passed away yesterday at a hunter trial competition in Cambridge. He collapsed towards the end of the course and up until then he showed no signs of any problems and was enjoying himself. I did walk/trot most of the course as it was a hot day and a long course, although he did become a bit over exuberant coming towards home. At least he went doing something he enjoyed. He was 15 years old and was otherwise very fit and healthy and had not shown any previous signs of having any problems; competing at the same competition last year and being placed at local competitions only a few weeks ago. 
I have owned him for over 2 years now and he has been such a star. He loved hacking out and jumping and was a pleasure to be around, hell be missed by all that knew him.
RIP Tommy, Ill miss you.
		
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I am so sorry to read this, this was the first time in years that I didn't make it to Trumpington. Big hugs for you and Rest In Peace Tommy, I hope you will find some comfort in the fact that he was enjoying himself up to his last xx


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## Wagtail (26 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			Yeh, for goodness sake, it would be like a 55 year old riding like Badminton.

Oh. Wait.
		
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Whilst you are trying to be clever, you forget there is a _huge_ difference between riding and doing the work of the horse. Equestrian sport is one of the few (along with golf, snooker etc) where older people can compete alongside those who are at their physical peak. How many 55 year olds will be competing in the olympic field events? 

Any horse can have a heart attack at any age, but it is a fact in both humans and animals, that the risk increases with age. 

I am sorry to hear about Tommy. 15 is by no means elderly for a horse. It must have been awful for you.

I am referring to those age 20 plus. I think with rare exceptions, it is too much to ask of any horse of that age to compete hunter trials or equivalent. But that is just my opinion and I respect that others feel completely differently.


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## Wagtail (26 April 2011)

MurphysMinder said:



			So sorry for your loss MelenR, RIP Tommy.

Wagtail, please don't consign all 60 year old people to the scrapheap, I'm not too far off 60 and don't actually feel ready to be put out to grass just yet. 

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Of course not.  I am referring to horses carrying people around over miles of cross country course.


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## Baggybreeches (26 April 2011)

MelenR said:



			Sadly my horse, Tommy Brown passed away yesterday at a hunter trial competition in Cambridge. 

At least he went doing something he enjoyed. He was 15 years old and was otherwise very fit and healthy and had not shown any previous signs of having any problems

RIP Tommy, Ill miss you.
		
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I am sorry to hear this  I lost one of mine on Saturday, but as you say they went doing something they enjoyed, and this comforts me enormously that the last thing my boy heard was me telling him how proud I was of him.
Take care xx


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## Wagtail (26 April 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			Please dont talk such shite!
I lost a fit and healthy 10yr old TB on Saturday, he dropped like a stone in the parade ring after finishing a p2p perfectly well, I also used to hunt and xc my 32yr old pony who was as fit as a fiddle until her eyesight became impaired.
A vet doesn't make a jot of difference to a horse having a heart attack, whether there is one or a hundred of them.
		
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Yes, I repeat, any horse can have a heart attack, regardless of age, but as in humans, the risk increases with age. You will always find exceptions.

I am very sorry to hear about your horse. Hadhe been checked for heart defects? I had a race horse arrive on my yard witha grade 4 heart murmur. She had been slowing down dramatically in her races but no one checked her heart.


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## Baggybreeches (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Yes, I repeat, any horse can have a heart attack, regardless of age, but as in humans, the risk increases with age. You will always find exceptions.
		
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The horse was 15 FFS! Not late twenties, he was trotting round a local hunter trial, you stated that it would be better that he was somewhere where there were lots of vets/checks in attendance, please enlighten me as to how this would have helped? All these things were in place at the meeting I was at on Saturday but didn't make a jot of difference to my horse. 
I would suggest that if you struggle to maintain your horses in a decent level of fitness beyond their teenage years, perhaps you need more training?


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## Baggybreeches (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I am very sorry to hear about your horse. Hadhe been checked for heart defects?
		
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We had no reason to check his heart, he only ever had the vet for vaccinations and didn't have a day sick or sorry in the 4 years I had him.


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## Wagtail (26 April 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			The horse was 15 FFS! Not late twenties, he was trotting round a local hunter trial, you stated that it would be better that he was somewhere where there were lots of vets/checks in attendance, please enlighten me as to how this would have helped? All these things were in place at the meeting I was at on Saturday but didn't make a jot of difference to my horse. 
I would suggest that if you struggle to maintain your horses in a decent level of fitness beyond their teenage years, perhaps you need more training?
		
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You do not read posts properly. I have stated above that 15 is _not_ elderly. I am talking about 20 plus. Maintaining a horse's fitness has nothing to do with whether you decide to compete them or not.


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## Wagtail (26 April 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			We had no reason to check his heart, he only ever had the vet for vaccinations and didn't have a day sick or sorry in the 4 years I had him.
		
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So you are competing at P2P and you don't have your horses vetted?


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## Baggybreeches (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			So you are competing at P2P and you don't have your horses vetted?
		
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Why would I have a horse I have owned for 4 years vetted?
As it happens I have only ever had 1 horse vetted in my life, and that was for grading purposes nothing to do with performance.


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## TGM (26 April 2011)

Wagtail, do have some tact and discretion - there are two people on this thread who have recently lost horses in sudden and tragic circumstances and you seem hell-bent on trying to make things worse for them by implying they were negligent in their care, despite the fact you know nothing of the individual horses and their management.

And I must add that a vetting will not necessarily pick up problems - I know a 5yo who died of a suspected aneurysm in the field despite having passed a vetting less than a year before.


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## MelenR (26 April 2011)

I'm sorry for you loss too Baggybreeches. Like you said, at least we can both take comfort in knowing they they were both enjoying themselves to the end.


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## Ranyhyn (26 April 2011)

TGM said:



			Wagtail, do have some tact and discretion .
		
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100% agree, sorry for both losses, had I realised i wouldn't have made the tongue in cheek suggestion to ban riding comps.  Sorry MelenR.


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## Wagtail (26 April 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			Why would I have a horse I have owned for 4 years vetted?
As it happens I have only ever had 1 horse vetted in my life, and that was for grading purposes nothing to do with performance.
		
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Maybe it's just me then. I always had a full 5 stage vetting either on purchase or before competing in anything more strenuous than dressage or local level show jumping. I would want to know my horse was more than healthy enough to cope with it. My mare had a 5 stage vetting and passed for competing at riding club level but not higher so I never pushed her higher than that. Her full bother on the other hand was vetted and fit for advanced eventing and so that is what he did.


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## UnaB (26 April 2011)

I had a 27 year old pony who competed regularly in SJ and XC until a few days before she died - NOT due to being unfit to compete either, she had a brain tumour.  Age has very little to do with it IMO, the horses fitness and soundness decides whether they can continue to compete, I know my pony would have gone nuts if not in regular work, she was a competition pony through and through.

Very sad to hear about the losses on this thread, heartbreaking for sure to lose them so suddenly and unexpectedly.


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## Ladylina83 (26 April 2011)

TGM said:



			Wagtail, do have some tact and discretion - there are two people on this thread who have recently lost horses in sudden and tragic circumstances and you seem hell-bent on trying to make things worse for them by implying they were negligent in their care, despite the fact you know nothing of the individual horses and their management.

And I must add that a vetting will not necessarily pick up problems - I know a 5yo who died of a suspected aneurysm in the field despite having passed a vetting less than a year before.
		
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Well said 

I competed my 19 year old mare this weekend, she was beaten by a 22 year old !! 

This is a tragic story and would be very very distressing for anyone of us to experiance. What should have been a fun outing on a bank holiday ending in someones loss of thier best mate!! I can't imagine what this feels like


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## *hic* (26 April 2011)

TGM said:



			Wagtail, do have some tact and discretion - there are two people on this thread who have recently lost horses in sudden and tragic circumstances and you seem hell-bent on trying to make things worse for them by implying they were negligent in their care, despite the fact you know nothing of the individual horses and their management.

And I must add that a vetting will not necessarily pick up problems - I know a 5yo who died of a suspected aneurysm in the field despite having passed a vetting less than a year before.
		
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Wagtail - perhaps you didn't see this the first time it was posted. At least I hope that's the reason you've carried on posting in such an antagonistic manner.

Thanks TGM, it was written much better than I could have done, I'd been trying though.


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## daft (26 April 2011)

I had a friend who had an arab mare she was only 6 years old she was hacking her around the country lanes as she did on many occasions, and this one day the mare suddenly reared up and shot into a huge holly headge and collasped, she died instantly from a heart attack, so so sad, as the mare was fit and healthy up until that day R.I.P Suzie.


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## Ladylina83 (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Maybe it's just me then. I always had a full 5 stage vetting either on purchase or before competing in anything more strenuous than dressage or local level show jumping. I would want to know my horse was more than healthy enough to cope with it. My mare had a 5 stage vetting and passed for competing at riding club level but not higher so I never pushed her higher than that. Her full bother on the other hand was vetted and fit for advanced eventing and so that is what he did.
		
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You would have a 5 stage vetting done on a horse you have had for 4 years before popping to do your local riding club hunter trails over a bank holiday ??


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## Baggybreeches (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Maybe it's just me then.
		
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Perhaps it is, I have plenty of friends who had vettings done with xrays and so on, and 12 months down the line their horses are retired due to injury.
A vetting should carry a caveat like an MOT to say that the vet has examined the horse on that day and found no defect, how the hell can you predict what will happen in the future?
A vetting is neither here nor there unless you are insuring a horse or haven't enough experience to decide what you want or need.
Does this look like a horse who will be dead in 10 minutes?
http://www.sweetphotography.com/Gal...oint/Vale of Lune/RACE 7/slides/IMG_1091.html


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## Wagtail (26 April 2011)

TGM said:



			Wagtail, do have some tact and discretion - there are two people on this thread who have recently lost horses in sudden and tragic circumstances and you seem hell-bent on trying to make things worse for them by implying they were negligent in their care, despite the fact you know nothing of the individual horses and their management.

And I must add that a vetting will not necessarily pick up problems - I know a 5yo who died of a suspected aneurysm in the field despite having passed a vetting less than a year before.
		
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I am genuinely sorry for the loss of those horses. I stated to the owner of Tommy, that I did not think 15 was old at all, and how terrible she must feel. 

As for Baggybreeches, she started off by saying I was talking 'shite' and by shouting in her posts. I still expressed I was sorry she had lost her horse. 

The discussion then moved on to whether horses should be vetted before competing in strenuous competition such as P2P. I think it is an important thing to consider and something that may prevent heartache for others. In the case of the race horse on my yard with a heart murmur, she is only 5 years old. The vet said there is little doubt she would have collapsed and died had she continued racing. However, despite her decline in performance on the track, she had never been vetted! Thankfully, she is now happily able to compete at local level dressage and hack out with very little chance of it over taxing her heart.


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## Serenity087 (26 April 2011)

Wagtail, no offence, who cares.

You started off this thread by stating that the horse who died at the HT was "obviously" too old and too badly trained.

No matter how many times you have your 5yo with a heart murmur vetting, it doesn't take back how callous and rude you were.  If Tommy is the horse referred to in the first post, then even though you've backtracked like nothing on earth, your comments are still insulting.

Just apologise and then step away from the computer, mkay?


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## Thistle (26 April 2011)

So wagtail, tell me. Should I get my horses vetted every time they do fast work, every time they go out to a party? Every time they hoon round the field on their own? I would be having them vetted a few times a week!!!

Do you thing every amateur athlete gets a full health check every time he goes for a run?

Baggy, the photo is stunning, brings a tear to my eye.


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## Wagtail (26 April 2011)

Ladylina83 said:



			You would have a 5 stage vetting done on a horse you have had for 4 years before popping to do your local riding club hunter trails over a bank holiday ??
		
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It depends on how big the course was. Personally, I would, yes. But that is because my horses are pets as well as just horses. They are never sold on.  I accept that not everyone views their horses this way however.

My newest horse is being brought back into full work after a hock operation and is now 100% sound. He is an ex race horse, and I may want to event him in the future (if he can jump - I haven't tried him yet!). If I do decide to event him, he will have a 5 stage vetting to make sure he is up to the job. I would rather pay the money and be told he is not up to the job than find out the hard way. I can always lower my sights.


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## Baggybreeches (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I am genuinely sorry for the loss of those horses. I stated to the owner of Tommy, that I did not think 15 was old at all, and how terrible she must feel. 

As for Baggybreeches, she started off by saying I was talking 'shite' and by shouting in her posts. I still expressed I was sorry she had lost her horse. 
a)Because your were talking shite. I did not shout. I appreciate your sorrow, but I am still annoyed at your insinuation that I should have had an otherwise fit, healthy and suitable for the job horse vetted.

The discussion then moved on to whether horses should be vetted before competing in strenuous competition such as P2P. I think it is an important thing to consider and something that may prevent heartache for others. In the case of the race horse on my yard with a heart murmur, she is only 5 years old. The vet said there is little doubt she would have collapsed and died had she continued racing. However, despite her decline in performance on the track, she had never been vetted! Thankfully, she is now happily able to compete at local level dressage and hack out with very little chance of it over taxing her heart.
b)A heart murmour is something detectable and is present in a fair few horses who have competed at high levels, most of these horses dropped a level or two and continue quite happily, again in any of Emerald's annual checks the vets have always commented on how fit he is. Having any horse vetted is only representative of the condition on that day.
		
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I would have changed the colour but I can't :$


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## Baggybreeches (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			If I do decide to event him, he will have a 5 stage vetting to make sure he is up to the job. I would rather pay the money and be told he is not up to the job than find out the hard way. I can always lower my sights.
		
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I would advise you not to bother, the only horse I had vetted is as sound as pound, but hates competing, go figure, a horses suitability relies on many different things.


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## Wagtail (26 April 2011)

Thistle said:



			So wagtail, tell me. Should I get my horses vetted every time they do fast work, every time they go out to a party? Every time they hoon round the field on their own? I would be having them vetted a few times a week!!!

Do you thing every amateur athlete gets a full health check every time he goes for a run?

Baggy, the photo is stunning, brings a tear to my eye.
		
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Now you are being silly. You only need to get your horses vetted initially and then have a health check up once a year when they are vaccinated.


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## Wagtail (26 April 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			I would advise you not to bother, the only horse I had vetted is as sound as pound, but hates competing, go figure, a horses suitability relies on many different things.
		
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I do not understand the relevance of this post.  Of course I wouldn't event him if he was unsuitable in other ways.


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## Baggybreeches (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			It depends on how big the course was. Personally, I would, yes. But that is because my horses are pets as well as just horses. They are never sold on.  I accept that not everyone views their horses this way however.
		
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My horses are pets first and foremost, but they are bred to be athletes, and they are much happier in work and hard work at that, I would suggest you return to this thread in several years time when you have a little more world experience outside the strange little bubble in which you currently reside.
And FWIW if you dare suggest that my horse wasn't fit enough to jump 18 4ft6 fences over 3miles 4 furlongs, I would suggest you come and try to gallop 1 mile on my other one, because until you have done it you don't have the faintest idea.


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## Baggybreeches (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Now you are being silly. You only need to get your horses vetted initially and then have a health check up once a year when they are vaccinated. 

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A vetting 4 years ago on a horse that had lived out for 3 months? Cor that would have been so relevant!


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## TGM (26 April 2011)

So how often do you recommend that people have their horses vetted then?  Every year, every month, every week?  Because a lot of problems can arise during the years of ownership that won't be there at the initial vetting.  For example, I had a horse that passed a full vetting, but developed a serious heart murmur a few years later.


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## cronkmooar (26 April 2011)

I took my 24yr old out for a hack on Sunday - and he will be competing as a show hunter and a veteran horse in June - and without being boasty about it kicks the arse of those 5 times younger than him frequently  !

Its absolute madness to suggest that he be vetted on a regular basis.

I do however have him blood tested every year to check vital organs and his heart is checked  then - but lets be honest something could happen within minutes, hours, days, weeks of this being done so unless you are married to a vet (if only ) and they follow you to every event to perform a vetting immediately prior to you competing I don't see how a vetting is going to help you very much!


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## Thistle (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Now you are being silly. You only need to get your horses vetted initially and then have a health check up once a year when they are vaccinated. 

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That's not what you said. You said that horses should be vetted before strenous work.

My horses compete aff BE SJ and dressage, they have a heart check at vaccination and other vet treatment as necessary. I can't really see why a horse needs to have a 5 stage vetting which includes it's ID sketch etc repeated at yearly intervals.

Just because my horse passed a vet last year doesn't mean it can't catch a virus in the mean time.

Stop back tracking and go away and learn what the practices are that you are recommending that everyone does.


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## Ranyhyn (26 April 2011)

*bangs forehead against table repeatedly*


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## moodymare123 (26 April 2011)

How immature some of you lot are being, someone has just lost a horse and your argueing about elderly horses :s? Please be more sympathetic?


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## Shipley (26 April 2011)

I am very sorry for you loss, I was also at the hunter trial and will not be going back, it was very sad when we heard in the collecting ring.


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## Wagtail (26 April 2011)

TGM said:



			So how often do you recommend that people have their horses vetted then?  Every year, every month, every week?  Because a lot of problems can arise during the years of ownership that won't be there at the initial vetting.  For example, I had a horse that passed a full vetting, but developed a serious heart murmur a few years later.
		
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Blimey. What is wrong with wanting to make sure that your horses can cope with what you are asking of them? An initial vetting with a check up every year. Why are people so averse to that? Had the mare on my yard not had the vetting and instead continued to compete, she would most likely be dead now. Why do you think it is so wrong to have them vetted? 

Of course a vetting will not pickup every single thing, and horses can develop heart murmurs at any time in their lives. But these can be picked up by an annual check up. 

And for people worried that the same thing might happen to their horse, I think reccommending a vetting and annual check ups is hardly an evil thing to do. It may well prevent other tragedies.


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## Thistle (26 April 2011)

moodymare123 said:



			How immature some of you lot are being, someone has just lost a horse and your argueing about elderly horses :s? Please be more sympathetic?
		
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We've already tried that approach!

And have also posted on the RIP thread. Wagtail keeps saying that the owners must be negligent. Really not very considerate alt all


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## Wagtail (26 April 2011)

Thistle said:



			That's not what you said. You said that horses should be vetted before strenous work.
		
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You misunderstood. I did not mean before every piece of strenuous work. Why would anyone suggest that? I meant before deciding to work them at that level.


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## Ranyhyn (26 April 2011)

It would seem despite people telling the poster, Wagtail is determined to have all the subtlety of a breeze block.  

You know some people go mad about this forum saying people are rude etc but this thread is the height of it.  Not just rude but downright crass.  I feel very sorry for the woman who lost her horse having to read this tripe.


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## *hic* (26 April 2011)

Given the mare I'd owned for five years, and which had competed in all RC teams and upto PN eventing had never shown signs of a heart murmur until her sale vetting two months after her previous vet check I think that Wagtail should be less complacent and have her horses checked at least every two months and possibly every time they are worked at all strenuously. Otherwise how can she be the ultimately concerned owner that the rest of us are clearly not - in her eyes.

*spoken as someone who happily took a 20+yo round a Hunter Trial course sufficiently under the optimum time to come second rather than win it*


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## Archangel (26 April 2011)

If I had just lost a horse I would be absolutely devastated reading this thread.

RIP Tommy and sincere sympathy to all his connections.


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## joeanne (26 April 2011)

If only everything were so black and white Wagtail. If only.....
For what you propose, a horse would need a weekly vetting and even then something might rear its ugly head and suprise the pants off you.
Perhaps some lesson's in how not to put your foot firmly in your mouth? Or shall I pass you a spade so you can keep on digging?
Thoughts for the connections to both horses.


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## Baggybreeches (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			You misunderstood. I did not mean before every piece of strenuous work. Why would anyone suggest that? I meant before deciding to work them at that level.
		
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You suggested that I should have had my horse vetted before going point to point, then you you changed your mind and said no, when I first got him but with annual checks, like I said the relevance of having a 6yr old vetted that had been out of work for 3 months would be no relevance to his condition and fitness 3 days ago.


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## Baggybreeches (26 April 2011)

RebelRebel said:



			If I had just lost a horse I would be absolutely devastated reading this thread.

RIP Tommy and sincere sympathy to all his connections.
		
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I am absolutely devastated, and I have a huge Emerald shaped hole in my life (as does my husband who thought he was the bees knees), but the tripe that Wagtail is posting is making me livid/astounded and increduled in equal measure!


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## Wagtail (26 April 2011)

Twist my words as much as you like.

I give in. You must be right. There is no need to check that horses are fit enough for competition at all. I will continue to do it however, and you will not.


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## Thistle (26 April 2011)

No one is twisting your words my dear, you are doing that yourself!


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Twist my words as much as you like.

I give in. You must be right. There is no need to check that horses are fit enough for competition at all. I will continue to do it however, and you will not.
		
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Wagtail, you are talking rubbish and upsetting vulnerable people. Perhaps its time to say the S word and move on. People are very forgiving if you put your hand in the air and admit you were talking out of the orifice normally seen resting in the saddle. I know because I've done it enough times.


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## Vixen Van Debz (26 April 2011)

Three 18yr olds completed Badminton at the weekend. And I have to say, Lenamore and Comanche were some of the best looking fitness-wise come the end of the course!  And just look at Spring Along - as strong as an ox, but he just took either a heart attack or aortic tear most likely. He couldn't have been fitter.  My Dad's friend, a marathon runner and keen cyclist, is one of the healthiest people I know and had a massive MI at the age of 43.

Still, no matter what the horses's age or fitness, it's a distressing sight to see, and devastating for the owners/riders. Thoughts to them.


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## martlin (26 April 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			I am absolutely devastated, and I have a huge Emerald shaped hole in my life (as does my husband who thought he was the bees knees), but the tripe that Wagtail is posting is making me livid/astounded and increduled in equal measure!
		
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Baggybreeches, I only just spotted this. I am SO, SO sorry about Emerald. You have my deepest sympathies 
And Wagtail, you are as subtle as a flying brick.


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## Cadfael&Coffee (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Twist my words as much as you like.

I give in. You must be right. There is no need to check that horses are fit enough for competition at all. I will continue to do it however, and you will not.
		
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i suggest you read your own posts back then Wagtail- you've changed your mind and contradicted yourself the entire way through this thread.

Condolences to those who knew the horses which were lost, i hope this thread isn't too upsetting 

and Baggybreaches- your horse looked beautiful, and so well in himself, such a waste


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## Amymay (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Obviously this 'elderly' horse was not fit enough or had a heart problem that meant that cross country was too much for him.
		
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I think that this was debated quite extensively in the Grand National Thread, Wagtail - where it became apparent quite quickly that you didn't really know what you were talking about............


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## Wagtail (26 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			Wagtail, you are talking rubbish and upsetting vulnerable people. Perhaps its time to say the S word and move on. People are very forgiving if you put your hand in the air and admit you were talking out of the orifice normally seen resting in the saddle. I know because I've done it enough times.
		
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I have apologised privately to Tommy's owner. I did not know the horse referred to in this thread was him. I thought it was a general discussion thread on horses that die at competitions. If anyone else has been upset, then sorry to them too. My intentions were simply to go some ways to help prevent other tragedies. The horse concerned in this thread was not at all elderly as indicated by the OP, nor was he being pushed beyond his capabilities.


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

amymay said:



			I think that this was debated quite extensively in the Grand National Thread, Wagtail - where it became apparent quite quickly that you didn't really know what you were talking about............
		
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And this week's tact and diplomacy award goes to amymay. I would just have said s/he was talking out of her bum, but you say it so much nicer.


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## quirky (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Twist my words as much as you like.

I give in. You must be right. There is no need to check that horses are fit enough for competition at all. I will continue to do it however, and you will not.
		
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I can't quite keep up with how often you think a horse should be 5* vetted but I would question whether you have more money than sense to continually vet the same horse. Mind you, I bet you're the vets best friend .

BaggyBreeches - So sorry to hear about Emerald, I have been following your posts in CR about your 2 and your recent trip to the beach on them.


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## Wagtail (26 April 2011)

amymay said:



			I think that this was debated quite extensively in the Grand National Thread, Wagtail - where it became apparent quite quickly that you didn't really know what you were talking about............
		
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Good argument.  Anyone who disagrees with you, Amy, does not know what they are talking about.


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## *hic* (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I have apologised privately to Tommy's owner. I did not know the horse referred to in this thread was him. I thought it was a general discussion thread on horses that die at competitions. If anyone else has been upset, then sorry to them too. My intentions were simply to go some ways to help prevent other tragedies. The horse concerned in this thread was not at all elderly as indicated by the OP, nor was he being pushed beyond his capabilities.
		
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But you knew very well that Baggybreeches had lost Emerald and carried on poking and prodding her sore spots. Perhaps you have apologised privately by pm for that but somehow I doubt it.


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## Baggybreeches (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Twist my words as much as you like.

I give in. You must be right. There is no need to check that horses are fit enough for competition at all. I will continue to do it however, and you will not.
		
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How dare you suggest that I would ever do anything other than run a fit horse, FYI I had two horses entered in the same race and the other one was withdrawn due to a blood test showing irregular level of enzymes, so don't you dare comment on my preparation or regime. You are obviously very very inexperienced to assume such knowledge of other disciplines and regimes, for your horses sakes I hope you wise up VERY VERY quickly.


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I have apologised privately to Tommy's owner. I did not know the horse referred to in this thread was him. I thought it was a general discussion thread on horses that die at competitions. If anyone else has been upset, then sorry to them too. My intentions were simply to go some ways to help prevent other tragedies. The horse concerned in this thread was not at all elderly as indicated by the OP, nor was he being pushed beyond his capabilities.
		
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That sounds a lot like not being sorry for what you are doing, so much as sorry you have been caught out.

It is possible to arrange the keys on a computer in such an order as to make them say 'oh bugger, yes, I hadn't thought of that, I am clearly talking total crap. Not enough coffee, obviously, sorry chaps.'


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## Ranyhyn (26 April 2011)

Yep - I came in with a rather flippant remark, meant to chide those who are on about banning high level horse sport.  Then realised horse owner was on the thread, cringed at my insensitivity (realised now is not the time nor place) and apologised - simple really.


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## Clodagh (26 April 2011)

I was the fence judge at the next fence and helped MelenR. Tommy looked in good condition and I think he was having a ball right up until the end. MelenR, you coped very well and I hope you are still. Take care and thinking of you.


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## Baggybreeches (26 April 2011)

jemima_too said:



			But you knew very well that Baggybreeches had lost Emerald and carried on poking and prodding her sore spots. Perhaps you have apologised privately by pm for that but somehow I doubt it.
		
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Thanks jemima_too, but it isn't the fact that I am upset, I was initially irked by the fact that people should have perfectly healthy horses seen by vets for no reason, which then turned into 'you should have had yours checked before going point to point' as if I would: a)take the risk of my horse hurting himself, b) waste time running him in a race he wasn't capable of winning and c) put a jockey at risk by providing an unfit ride.

Sheesh, yes I am raw and upset, but Wagtail is clearly unhinged.


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## Wagtail (26 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			That sounds a lot like not being sorry for what you are doing, so much as sorry you have been caught out.

It is possible to arrange the keys on a computer in such an order as to make them say 'oh bugger, yes, I hadn't thought of that, I am clearly talking total crap. Not enough coffee, obviously, sorry chaps.'
		
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And you are determined to prolong and argument, when it has nothing to do with you. MelenR knows my apology to her is genuine. I will leave you all to continue to slag me off all you like.


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			And you are determined to prolong and argument, when it has nothing to do with you. MelenR knows my apology to her is genuine. I will leave you all to continue to slag me off all you like. 

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That's good of you, I'll see what I can do. And it's a public forum, btw, it has to do with who so ever would like to take part, actually.


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## Caledonia (26 April 2011)

How insensitive can you be, Wagtail?  

Frightening to think you (apparently) actually run a livery yard and rehab horses when your posts on here show little or no understanding of the horse. 

Huge sympathies to both people on this thread who have lost their pride and joy. So sorry.


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## el_Snowflakes (26 April 2011)

I can only assume wagtail (like myself) thought this post was in reference to an old horse being ridden around a xcountry course. However we now know that the horse was not 'elderly' and so I think it is safe to disregard those comments....

MelenR, I truly am sorry for your loss. Must have been a huge shock for you....big hugs x


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## Zebedee (26 April 2011)

Wagtail the person who told you to stop posting such shite was 100% spot on.
A 5* vetting before every event? Get real. Horses are born, & then sooner or later they will die, as will we all. Try & get your head around that.

MelanR you have my sympathies. Whatever you do though please don't blame yourself, as you haven't been at fault in anyway despite some of the rubbish posted in this thread. xx


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## Amymay (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Good argument.  Anyone who disagrees with you, Amy, does not know what they are talking about.
		
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Nope, I'm quite often corrected on the forum - and accept quite happily if I'm wrong about something.  Especially if I'm not 100% sure about what I'm talking about


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## Baggybreeches (26 April 2011)

amymay said:



			Nope, I'm quite often corrected on the forum - and accept quite happily if I'm wrong about something.  Especially if I'm not 100% sure about what I'm talking about 

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FWIW I quite often disagree with you amymay (but often can't be arsed posting!), but credit where it's due, this time I agree 100%.


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## MelenR (26 April 2011)

I just want to verify that Wagtail has sent me a very nice apology by pm. I understand that the original poster did not know the horse in question and referred to him as elderly which provoked some debate as to what is defined as elderly and what they should/shouldnt be doing at that age. As I said before, Tommy was very fit and well.

Thanks again clodagh for all your help yesterday, much appreciated!


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## *hic* (26 April 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			Thanks jemima_too, but it isn't the fact that I am upset, I was initially irked by the fact that people should have perfectly healthy horses seen by vets for no reason, which then turned into 'you should have had yours checked before going point to point' as if I would: a)take the risk of my horse hurting himself, b) waste time running him in a race he wasn't capable of winning and c) put a jockey at risk by providing an unfit ride.
		
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Mmm I felt an apology for her insinuations that you would have done that was in order.

Especially as I was gobsmacked to find that I had inadvertently put my own horse, pro rider and daughter who occasionally rode the horse all at risk when I found out that the horse had developed a heart murmur in the two months between her vaccination checks and 5 stage vetting. She had been out competing XC in that time.


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## muffinino (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I am referring to those age 20 plus. I think with rare exceptions, it is too much to ask of any horse of that age to compete hunter trials or equivalent. But that is just my opinion and I respect that others feel completely differently. 

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Really? I'd better tell all my scurry driving mates with ponies in their 20s and even 30s that their ponies can no longer compete, then. Because what with warming up then galloping flat out around a course twice a day, it's just too much. In all seriousness, my old boss won HOYS in 2002 with a pony in his early 20s and he was still competing him 2 years ago when sadly he was kicked and broke a leg, so was PTS. That pony lived for scurrying and was the best on the circuit on a good day, and scurrying is as hard as a hunter trial course (oh, and the driver is 71 this year, so he really shouldn't be competing...).
It all depends on the horse, really, doesn't it? I've seen horses out hunting in their 20s who have easily coped, so saying age should automatically lead to retirement is not strictly true. Yes, the oldies require a bit more care sometimes, but that doesn't mean they are over the hill. Horses and humans of any age can die of heart failure at any age, it's one of the sad facts of life. I had a distant cousin in her early-thirties who was found dead one morning in 2000 of a heart attack; she was healthy and showed no signs of any problems before this, just had a massive heart attack whilst getting ready for work and died instantly. Nothing anyone could have done would have made a difference before or whilst it happened and it's likely that the same applies here.


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## charlie76 (26 April 2011)

So, from what wagtail is saying, Daisy Berkley must also have dragged her horse out of a field,un fit and unprepared before taking it round Gatcombe where is died of a suspected heart attacK? What a load of cack!
FYI it is also possible for horses to show heart murmers one day and not the next. Heart murmers can be bought on from a virus or even stress. It is also entirely possible for a horse with a heart murmer to compete with no problems whatsoever.
To imply that the 2 people who have lost their horses due to an unforseen circumstance, had infact competed them in an unfit state is a disgrace.
Do you honestly think it is neccesary to get a vet to check your horse every time you want to compete/fast work at home?
 If so your vets must love you, you must be their best customer!I have never heard such utter rubbish in my entire life!
I run an equestrian centre, we have horses we use for lessons older than 15 yrs old! They also compete! Maybe I should line them all up and shoot them as they must be way to past it to actually work!


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## alligator40 (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			It depends on how big the course was. Personally, I would, yes. But that is because my horses are pets as well as just horses. They are never sold on.  I accept that not everyone views their horses this way however.
		
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you'd have a 5* EVERYTIME you went out to compete?

Blimey, your Vets must see you as a cash cow.


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## alligator40 (26 April 2011)

Kitsune said:



			*bangs forehead against table repeatedly*
		
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you'll get a nasty headache doing that, kitty


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## alligator40 (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Why would anyone suggest that?
		
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Dunno...but you did


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## Tnavas (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Maybe it's just me then. I always had a full 5 stage vetting either on purchase or before competing in anything more strenuous than dressage or local level show jumping. I would want to know my horse was more than healthy enough to cope with it. My mare had a 5 stage vetting and passed for competing at riding club level but not higher so I never pushed her higher than that. Her full bother on the other hand was vetted and fit for advanced eventing and so that is what he did.
		
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More money than horse sense! Have had horses fail a vet check and then pass some months later - learn to judge your horse by what you see and feel.

Sorry MelenR & Baggybreeches to hear of the loss of your horses a sad time for you both ((((HUGS))))


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## Baggybreeches (26 April 2011)

alligator40 said:



			you'll get a nasty headache doing that, kitty
		
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No sense, no feeling is the saying, I believe?


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## BMA (26 April 2011)

Wagtail - YOUR VET MUST LOVE YOU 


££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££


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## ladyt25 (26 April 2011)

I am very sorry to hear of the death of this horse - always something you dread when setting out on a course but nothing can be done to prevent it.

As for competing an old horse and a horse "not being fit", is rather a silly comment to make. I do not ahve my horse 5 stage vetted every year - yep they have a general check over when they have their vaccinations, doesn't mean they won't drop down dead the next day though!

As far as I am aware as well it is generally the fitter horse (your top eventers, racehorses etc) who have heart murmurs (or varying grades) and they do not (in most cases) cause them any problems at all. Hundreds of horses out there have low grade heart murmurs, it doesn't mean they are necessarily more likely to have a heart attack than any other horse.

I lost a pony after a team chase - he broke down and died later on. Prior to that there was nothing physically wrong with him so I could not have forseen that would happen. 

My horse is 20 now and I fully intend to continue competing him for as long as he wants to do it for. I would be devastated if something happened to him but i can live life thinking of what ifs. You'd never do anything!

My condolences to those who have lost their horses.


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## lynseylou1 (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Obviously this 'elderly' horse was not fit enough or had a heart problem that meant that cross country was too much for him. There is a difference between competing an older fit horse at events where there is a heavy vet presence and checks, and the small riding club events where some people take out their old horse that has ben turned out 24/7 and ridden once a week. Not saying this was the case here, but it is a common enough occurance.
		
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My mare had a heart attack grazing in field at 18 years of age.... not nec anything to do with fitness. She was happily munching away, i went to get a cuppa, came back in the boil of a kettle and gone :-( quick as that.... still had grass poking out of her mouth.... well she was  a sec d ;-)
Guess my point is it may have had nothing to do with the fact horse was popping a course , could just as easily been at home. When its you time , its your time.Its the hardest for those left behind..... what a way to go tho dear of him out having fun enjoying been loved and having a blast til the last breath. Personally I couldnt wish for any more for my horse xx


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## Jesstickle (26 April 2011)

MelenR and Baggybreeches I just wanted to say how sorry I am for both your losses  
BB it is obvious from your photo that your horse was in absolutely fantastic condition and I'm sure Tommy was too.

It must be a huge shock. I don't want this to sound insensitive, it's meant as a good thing, but I can only hope that mine go the same way. Doing something they love on a glorious day rather than a long drawn out decline in to old age. What a high they both went out on.


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## Hippona (26 April 2011)

Well......when I was 20, my loan pony died suddenly of a heart attack. She was fit and well- was exercised daily....infact, I was riding her when it happened. There were no warning signs. She was 9. It just sometimes happens.

FWIW.....I would rather a horse drop down dead suddenly ....than decline slowly.....


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## millhouse (26 April 2011)

Rest in peace dear horses.


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## Circe (26 April 2011)

So sorry to both owners, RIP horses. 
Baggybreeches, your horse looked fantastic, so keen and happy. 
MelenR, i thought it was a lovely thing for Clodagh to say that your boy looked like he was having a ball right to the end. I hope you can take comfort in the fact that he was happy.
Kx


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## Ranyhyn (26 April 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			No sense, no feeling is the saying, I believe? 

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## dollface (26 April 2011)

Having had Emerald on loan I can tell you that he would happily gallop along all day every day!
From having Emerald I then got to know Elaine and can hand on heart say that ALL her horses are fitter than most I know and are worked up to that fitness level correctly, sensibly and sensitively!  
I can only wish both owners well and symapthise with their situations x


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## Dizzle (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Maybe it's just me then. I always had a full 5 stage vetting either on purchase or before competing in anything more strenuous than dressage or local level show jumping. I would want to know my horse was more than healthy enough to cope with it. My mare had a 5 stage vetting and passed for competing at riding club level but not higher so I never pushed her higher than that. Her full bother on the other hand was vetted and fit for advanced eventing and so that is what he did.
		
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That's interesting. I have a RC combined training soon, I had better call the vet...


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## Baggybreeches (26 April 2011)

dollface said:



			Having had Emerald on loan I can tell you that he would happily gallop along all day every day!
		
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Yup it was the staying on while he did it that seemed to challenge us both! x


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## skewbald_again (26 April 2011)

Dizzle said:



			That's interesting. I have a RC combined training soon, I had better call the vet...
		
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You mean you don't have a vet on call the whole time. How self evidently obviously uncaring of you. 
I personally have a 6* between the egg and spoon and the bending, but then I don't suppose you common lot even know what a 6* is.


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## Dizzle (26 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			You mean you don't have a vet on call the whole time. How self evidently obviously uncaring of you. 
I personally have a 6* between the egg and spoon and the bending, but then I don't suppose you common lot even know what a 6* is. 

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OMG, I need a 6* I can't believe I've neglected my boy like this  you must think me so cruel...

Is that Grand Prix egg and spoon?!


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## rosie fronfelen (26 April 2011)

Dizzle said:



			OMG, I need a 6* I can't believe I've neglected my boy like this  you must think me so cruel...

Is that Grand Prix egg and spoon?! 

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IMO i think theres been enough Wagtail bashing now and more than enough sarcasm-


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## Baggybreeches (26 April 2011)

rosiefronfelen said:



			IMO i think theres been enough Wagtail bashing now and more than enough sarcasm-
		
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I dont think there has been at all, she has not apologised for suggesting I would run an unfit horse and is, in my eyes, 'fair game'.


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## Amaranta (26 April 2011)

Just wanted to add my condolences to both MelenR and Baggybritches, I cannot even begin to know how you are feeling 

As for Wagtail................................................


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## EstherYoung (26 April 2011)

Many many many horses have heart murmurs. They can be quiet and serious, loud and serious, quiet and harmless, or loud and harmless.

Our Spud developed one last year. Scared the hell out of us, and still does, but the vets are 99% sure that it's harmless even though it's loud. We got him fitter than he's ever been before last year, and as a result his heart now apparently has extra capacity when at rest. However, the only way to be 100% sure that it's harmless would be to ultrasound him, ecg him, and have him on a treadmill, but I'm guided by my vet and the other very experienced endurance vets who have vetted him since it developed who think further investigation is not necessary at the moment.

We're lucky in endurance riding in that the horses are checked by vets several times during the events, but even that's not an absolute guarantee that things won't go wrong. Most fatal heart problems in horses are very sudden valve ruptures and are completely symptomless beforehand. A vet could check the horse moments before and have no idea what was coming. My heart goes out to those that have lost horses this way and I hope that I never join them. But then, I guess none of us know when our time it up.

Nb Wagtail, if the little ex racehorse had the sinister 'could drop dead at any time' type of murmur, she shouldn't be doing dressage either. I know people whose horses have had that type of murmur and they've been advised to completely retire them, as the heart is as likely to fail walking along as it is jumping or cantering. Also, Spud's murmur disappears during the 'off season' when he's not fit, so a checkup before getting him fit would show nothing.


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## Moggy in Manolos (26 April 2011)

Very sad indeed, must have been a terrible shock x


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## Kokopelli (26 April 2011)

Very sorry to both MelenR and Baggybritches. Such a shock to you both, at least you have comfort in the fact they went doing what they loved. Sending my condolences.

As for vetting regularly I think its a major waste of money, anything can happen to horses as lets face it, they're horses. You'd think a 1200lb animal wouldn't be so fragile.

Never leave your horse in a bad mood, always give them an extra hug and pat goodnight as you don't know what will be your last moment with them. Don't miss the opportunity to say goodbye and cherish absolutely every moment you have with them as you never know if it's your last.


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## Gembo (26 April 2011)

R.I.P tommy brown


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## brighteyes (26 April 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			Yup it was the staying on while he did it that seemed to challenge us both! x
		
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You put my son on that daft old sod and sent them round a British Novice!  He was a sweet and generous horse with a cheeky edge and I'm sad that he left you, but glad he did it while having a blast and with you there telling him he was a superstar   

Rest In Peace Emmy x

I will get all mine checked for aneurisms first thing tomorrow and make a note to self not to look at any more pics of him - especially  this one...


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## Baggybreeches (26 April 2011)

brighteyes said:



			You put my son on that daft old sod and sent them round a British Novice!
		
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And then admitted afterwards that he had never jumped a fence bigger than 85cms for about 18 months! ROFL!!


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## alligator40 (26 April 2011)

rosiefronfelen said:



			IMO i think theres been enough Wagtail bashing now and more than enough sarcasm-
		
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not at all..everyone's fair game ... even simple souls


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## Wagtail (26 April 2011)

EstherYoung said:



			Nb Wagtail, if the little ex racehorse had the sinister 'could drop dead at any time' type of murmur, she shouldn't be doing dressage either. I know people whose horses have had that type of murmur and they've been advised to completely retire them, as the heart is as likely to fail walking along as it is jumping or cantering. Also, Spud's murmur disappears during the 'off season' when he's not fit, so a checkup before getting him fit would show nothing.
		
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That was two years ago. She was given the all clear by the vet to compete at riding club level. Her heart murmur has been down graded this year. The vet is a Newmarket vet who okayed her.


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## Baggybreeches (26 April 2011)

alligator40 said:



			not at all..everyone's fair game ... even simple souls
		
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oh bugger, I will retire quietly then........


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## Wagtail (26 April 2011)

rosiefronfelen said:



			IMO i think theres been enough Wagtail bashing now and more than enough sarcasm-
		
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Thank you, Rosiefrofelen. But I don't mind. Keeps them out of trouble


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## Puppy (26 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Blimey. What is wrong with wanting to make sure that your horses can cope with what you are asking of them? An initial vetting with a check up every year. Why are people so averse to that? Had the mare on my yard not had the vetting and instead continued to compete, she would most likely be dead now. Why do you think it is so wrong to have them vetted? 

Of course a vetting will not pickup every single thing, and horses can develop heart murmurs at any time in their lives. But these can be picked up by an annual check up. 

And for people worried that the same thing might happen to their horse, I think reccommending a vetting and annual check ups is hardly an evil thing to do. It may well prevent other tragedies.
		
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I bought a 3 year old ex race horse straight out of training, and after some time turned away brought him back into work. At age 6 and 7 he was worked hard (he was a thug if not!), then as I had failed to sell him that autumn and I had exams he was roughed off that winter. He dropped dead of a heart attack in the January, the year he would have turned 8, following a GA. A PM showed a weakened heart valve that my vet said would NOT have even been apparent at a vetting. Thank goodness it didn't happen the summer before when I was working him hard, or if I had sold him and it had happened shortly after arriving at a new home. These things happen with horses, much like heart attacks aren't always detectable in people or related to age/fitness.


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## Puppy (27 April 2011)

brighteyes said:



			I will get all mine checked for aneurisms first thing tomorrow and make a note to self not to look at any more pics of him - especially  this one...
		
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Oh gosh, that photo really brings a lump to my throat and a tear to my eye, but not merely because the poor boy has passed away, or how sad I am for BB's loss, but also for how absolutely beautiful, fit and happy he clearly is. If only all horses could be that way on their final day. 

xx


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## Potato! (27 April 2011)

I know of someone who lost a horse that they had purchased as a fit and ready to go eventer who she had vetted and passed with flying colours. Three weeks later she had a heart attack while jumping into the water on their first xc together. This was not picked up in the vet report.


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## Redd (27 April 2011)

I lost my 14h1" pony when he was only 11 - we had an autopsy done as he collapsed just after a SJ round and it was a heart attack.  The vets said we could have had a vetting done before the SJ round and would not have known, there was no heart mumur, but a capilary burst and bled onto the Purkinji fibres (not sure of spelling) causing a heart attack.  There was no way anyone could know.  I feel very sorry for everyone who's lost a horse in this way, but at least the horse does not usually suffer.


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## blitznbobs (27 April 2011)

What has a heart murmur got to do with a heart attack anyway. I'll tell you - very little. A murmur is due to a flow problem thru the heart And a heart attack is due to vessel disease. The problems are in the main unlinked. And I have never had a horse have an ECG even at a 5 stage vetting.


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## lea840 (27 April 2011)

MelenR and Baggybritches... firstly i'm so sorry to hear of your loss, you must both be devastated *Hugs*

I'll be honest I havn't read every single post here but I have skim read them and by the sounds of things some people are suggesting getting a horse vetted on a frequent basis... The way I see a vetting is similar to getting your car MOT'd or even a person having a CRB check done in the work place, it is only valid for that ONE day, the day it passes. You could have a horse vetted the day before an event but anything can happen once the vet has walked away. Yes a vetting could show up something but it will only be show IF the vet spots it. Not everything is picked up on. It's like having your car MOT'd, yes it might pass but it can easily start will an oil leak on the way home... or someone can pass a CRB check but go out and commit a crime that evening and no one would know about it until the next time they had a CRB check... 

I would and do have 'New' horses vetted (obviously before handing over my hard earned pennys) but I would never vet a horse that I had owned and which had already passed a vetting... I MOT my car once a year, I don't MOT it every time I take it out for a drive but I do do all of the maintenance checks, oil, water, tyre pressue etc... its the same with a horse, in fact a horse gets looked over in much more detail on a daily basis because for those who groom thoroughly every day go over every square inch of its body and know when there is a lump or bump... obviously we can't see the inside of our horses, but neither can a vet unless they scan and x-ray every square inch. 

A vetting is only valid until the vet walks away, like an MOT is only valid until the car drives out of the garage...


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## Wagtail (27 April 2011)

Puppy said:



			I bought a 3 year old ex race horse straight out of training, and after some time turned away brought him back into work. At age 6 and 7 he was worked hard (he was a thug if not!), then as I had failed to sell him that autumn and I had exams he was roughed off that winter. He dropped dead of a heart attack in the January, the year he would have turned 8, following a GA. A PM showed a weakened heart valve that my vet said would NOT have even been apparent at a vetting. Thank goodness it didn't happen the summer before when I was working him hard, or if I had sold him and it had happened shortly after arriving at a new home. These things happen with horses, much like heart attacks aren't always detectable in people or related to age/fitness.
		
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That is very true, Puppy. Not all heart conditions are detectable. But all we can do is our best. Many heart conditions _are_ detectable like the one the mare at my yard has. At least her owner is aware of it and can manage it accordingly. The vet says there is no way she would cope with hard work as in racing but is absolutely fine in light work. If her owner hadn't had her vetted she would not have known that.

I am really sorry about what happened with your horse. Obviously in your case a vetting would not have helped.


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## EstherYoung (27 April 2011)

Blitznbobs - absolutely. Two entirely different things. A serious kind of murmur can cause heart failure, but a heart murmur is not what killed the two poor horses referred to in this thread.

Wagtail wrote:



			That was two years ago. She was given the all clear by the vet to compete at riding club level. Her heart murmur has been down graded this year. The vet is a Newmarket vet who okayed her.
		
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The 'grading' for heart murmurs is purely on their loudness, not their seriousness. The seriousness depends on which valves are leaking into which chamber and is a separate issue. If the vet's a decent vet, they can give you a reasonable degree of certainty as to whereabouts in the cycle the murmur is occurring, but the only way to tell for sure is to get them on a treadmill and ecg/ultrasound them.

Horses hearts are notoriously untidy in their operation, they're not little tight operations like people, they're large gallopin' pumps. As the horse gets fitter and the heart muscle increases in size, they get even more untidy, particularly at rest. You quite often find very fit horses with murmurs, or that drop beats left right and centre, because heart is so large and so fit that it doesn't have enough to do when the horse isn't gallopin'. TBs particularly are prone to them, as genetically they have very big hearts, to the point where actually you'd probably struggle to find a TB who doesn't drop beats and/or display a murmur when fit.  

The fact that the mare's murmur has decreased when she lost fitness indicates that maybe it wasn't the serious type, and that it was a fitness related one instead. If it had been the serious 'drop dead at any moment' type, believe me the vet would not have passed her fit for riding club activities (which after all still require the mare to be fit enough to canter and jump safely).

The other reason the murmur could have decreased is if the original murmur was caused by a virus - sick horses often display murmurs too.


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## Wagtail (27 April 2011)

burness_21 said:



			I know of someone who lost a horse that they had purchased as a fit and ready to go eventer who she had vetted and passed with flying colours. Three weeks later she had a heart attack while jumping into the water on their first xc together. This was not picked up in the vet report.
		
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Vettings do not pick up everything, no. A heart condition can develop at any time. However, I would rather be aware of anything that a vetting might highlight if I wanted to put my horse into hard work. To me, it is just a sensible thing to do. It's not hard or ridiculously expensive. Just one five star vetting (no more expensive than a good rug, and a one off), and then vet does quick check over at vaccination time. It took the vet ten seconds to detect the heart problem of the mare I mentioned above.


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## Wagtail (27 April 2011)

EstherYoung said:



			Blitznbobs - absolutely. Two entirely different things. A serious kind of murmur can cause heart failure, but a heart murmur is not what killed the two poor horses referred to in this thread.

Wagtail wrote:


The 'grading' for heart murmurs is purely on their loudness, not their seriousness. The seriousness depends on which valves are leaking into which chamber and is a separate issue. If the vet's a decent vet, they can give you a reasonable degree of certainty as to whereabouts in the cycle the murmur is occurring, but the only way to tell for sure is to get them on a treadmill and ecg/ultrasound them.

Horses hearts are notoriously untidy in their operation, they're not little tight operations like people, they're large gallopin' pumps. As the horse gets fitter and the heart muscle increases in size, they get even more untidy, particularly at rest. You quite often find very fit horses with murmurs, or that drop beats left right and centre, because heart is so large and so fit that it doesn't have enough to do when the horse isn't gallopin'. TBs particularly are prone to them, as genetically they have very big hearts, to the point where actually you'd probably struggle to find a TB who doesn't drop beats and/or display a murmur when fit.  

The fact that the mare's murmur has decreased when she lost fitness indicates that maybe it wasn't the serious type, and that it was a fitness related one instead. If it had been the serious 'drop dead at any moment' type, believe me the vet would not have passed her fit for riding club activities (which after all still require the mare to be fit enough to canter and jump safely).

The other reason the murmur could have decreased is if the original murmur was caused by a virus - sick horses often display murmurs too.
		
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Thank you. She's not my horse, and I admit I would still be a bit nervous doing anything with her if she were mine. But I was there when the original vet vetted her and told me there was little doubt that if she had continued racing she would have collapsed. He said he could hear the murmer equally badly in all four chambers. Anyway, a trip to Rossdales and she was cleared for riding cub level work but deemed unsuitable for anything more strenuous than that. 

What you have said however, makes me even more certain that having horses vetted before putting them into hard work is a sensible thing to do.


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## Baggybreeches (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			What you have said however, makes me even more certain that having horses vetted before putting them into hard work is a sensible thing to do.
		
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You have been told repeatedly that levels of fitness affect the operation of the heart muscle, so it responds differently when fit, therefore it is of little relevance testing a horse before it commences a fitness regime. 
Good God, I pity your poor liveries who must have vets bills bigger than my mortgage


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## Wagtail (27 April 2011)

So all the insurance companies and people buying horses are just stupid insisting on having them vetted? And a vet would never then pick up a murmer on subsequent annual checks after the horse has been in work?


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## Amymay (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			So all the insurance companies and people buying horses are just stupid insisting on having them vetted? And a vet would never then pick up a murmer on subsequent annual checks after the horse has been in work?
		
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Head, desk...............................


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## Baggybreeches (27 April 2011)

amymay said:



			Head, desk...............................

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And again!


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## Thistle (27 April 2011)

Watch out for the splinters!


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## Baggybreeches (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			So all the insurance companies and people buying horses are just stupid insisting on having them vetted? And a vet would never then pick up a murmer on subsequent annual checks after the horse has been in work?
		
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OK I will make this simple especially for you!

I have kept horses for 30 yrs, Emerald is the second horse I have had die of something other than old age, my first horse had grass sickness, he was 4. A vetting wouldn't have picked anything up to indicate that would happen. Emerald was 10 and fully fit having been in hard work for 4 years (and 2 years prior to that racing), what could be gained from doing anything other than listening to their heart that would suggest a valve rupture or haemorrhage was going to happen? I don't know what my horse died of, as once they are dead there is very little point in carrying out a post mortem.
So in 30 yrs I have owned 12 or so horses and only 2 have died or been ill/injured, one of my friends has owned horses for 15 years and has had 8 horses I think, of which each and every one has been deemed unrideable due to various conditions, she has all of hers insured and obviously vetted, so can you only say based on my (I grant you not the most representative sample) experience, that the vetting and insurance is pointless.


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## Tnavas (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			So all the insurance companies and people buying horses are just stupid insisting on having them vetted? And a vet would never then pick up a murmer on subsequent annual checks after the horse has been in work?
		
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Wagtail! I will send you a JCB to increase the size of the hole you are digging yourself into! Maybe once you can no longer see over the top you will think before you type.

Pre purchase vet checks if the horse is expensive is a sensible thing to do, though it is no guarantee that the horse will survive the trip home from the seller. 

Vetting required by the Insurance company is to safeguard their money - not yours. They don't want to insure a horse with an underlying problem.

In 45yrs of working/owning/teaching with horses etc I've only ever had three horses vetted. 

An experienced horseperson will judge the condition of the horse by looking at it, weight, muscle tone, atitude, will feel how it is working, (is it stiff on one side,taking a slightly shorter step with one hind leg, unhappy being saddled or bridled these may  be symptoms of soreness)  they may check respiration and heart rate with a stethescope before and after fast work - The faster the recovery the fitter the horse. The less the heart beats per minute the fitter the horse. 

If a horse has been unwell - eg strangles or flu then I might consider a vet check before starting work again - more likely though I will give the horse a spell out in the paddock for a few weeks and then take several weeks to quietly bring him up to fitness level.

Bringing the horse up to fitness is more risky than the actual performance as the unfit horse is more likely to risk injury.

I really suggest that you sign up for some evening classes in general horsemangement especially related to getting horses fit for competition. Step outside your comfort zone and learn more, experience more.


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## PapaFrita (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Thank you. She's not my horse, and I admit I would still be a bit nervous doing anything with her if she were mine. But I was there when the original vet vetted her and told me there was little doubt that if she had continued racing she would have collapsed. He said he could hear the murmer equally badly in all four chambers. Anyway, a trip to Rossdales and she was cleared for riding cub level work but deemed unsuitable for anything more strenuous than that. 

What you have said however, makes me even more certain that having horses vetted before putting them into hard work is a sensible thing to do.
		
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But that's not what a 5 stage vetting is designed for. The vetting is a pre-purchase exam. It's the same procedure for little ponies and draught horses and eventers with the vet deciding from a limited amount of information what level of work a horse is potentially capable of. Even so, a vetting can only tell you that a horse was fit for any particular purpose on THAT day. If the vetting were sufficient, then the mare you describe would not have required an additional trip to Rossdales. If you REALLY wanted to test a horse's ability to stand up to hard work surely you'd NOT have a vetting but a full finess work up; x-rays, tendon scanning, scoping (on a treadmill, obviously, as meaningless on a horse at rest), etc, etc, etc.


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## flyingfeet (27 April 2011)

Ditto Evelyn - I think the longer you have / work with horses the more you see vettings as being worthless - They are literally what the vet can see on that day and you can flexion lame a horse if you try hard enough

I think we've only ever had a few vetted (although this may be because we buy cheap horses!!)

With regards to heart conditions - you are totally reliant on the ears of your vet and without a second opinion usually! To a certain extent ignorance is bliss. 

Life is short and it is inevitable that you will loose a horse of something sooner or later as livestock means deadstock. 

Again I think I'd rather have a heart attack horse than one that slowly degenerates and forces you to make a decision. 

Condolences to those who have lost horses this way, but I am pleased they left this world doing something they loved.


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## Jennyharvey (27 April 2011)

Poor horse, RIP, and rider, who must be devastated.   loosing a horse is never an easy thing to come to terms with.


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## Wagtail (27 April 2011)

Baggybreeches said:



			OK I will make this simple especially for you!

I have kept horses for 30 yrs, Emerald is the second horse I have had die of something other than old age, my first horse had grass sickness, he was 4. A vetting wouldn't have picked anything up to indicate that would happen. Emerald was 10 and fully fit having been in hard work for 4 years (and 2 years prior to that racing), what could be gained from doing anything other than listening to their heart that would suggest a valve rupture or haemorrhage was going to happen? I don't know what my horse died of, as once they are dead there is very little point in carrying out a post mortem.
So in 30 yrs I have owned 12 or so horses and only 2 have died or been ill/injured, one of my friends has owned horses for 15 years and has had 8 horses I think, of which each and every one has been deemed unrideable due to various conditions, she has all of hers insured and obviously vetted, so can you only say based on my (I grant you not the most representative sample) experience, that the vetting and insurance is pointless.
		
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That is fair enough. I respect your experience as I have kept horses for forty years now and have come to the opposite opinion. You make decisions based on your experiences, and as yours are different from mine, you will have a different view point. I suppose I was just shocked that anyone would P2P without conducting a full health check of their horse as it would be unthinkable for me. But I do understand where you are coming from based on your own experience and judgements. I could be hacking out or doing a dressage test tomorrow and my own horse could have a heart attack. I don't get cheap horses vetted until they are at a level where I want to do harder work with them. But if I buy an expensive horse, I have them vetted for insurance purposes and because I usually buy them for competition. I have done very well from having horses insured and am by far the better off financially for it. The one horse I didn't insure (because he was dumped on me by a non paying livery and therefore was not mine) I ended up paying £4k for a colic operation for him and he still died! But he was a lovely boy and I wouldn't change that decision even though I had to take out a loan to pay for it. He deserved every chance.


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## lochpearl (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			That was two years ago. She was given the all clear by the vet to compete at riding club level. Her heart murmur has been down graded this year. The vet is a Newmarket vet who okayed her. 

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I would be looking for another opinion tbh if you used that practice, one of the top diagnostic vets there bought his OH a horse, spent a fortune on it and even took it to the vets for an extra tough vetting, scans, you name it, horse dropped down dead in the field a few years later due to a heart problem!


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## Wagtail (27 April 2011)

lochpearl said:



			I would be looking for another opinion tbh if you used that practice, one of the top diagnostic vets there bought his OH a horse, spent a fortune on it and even took it to the vets for an extra tough vetting, scans, you name it, horse dropped down dead in the field a few years later due to a heart problem!
		
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As I said previously, not all heart conditions are detectable by listening to the heart. My own son has fluid around his heart and needs to go for regular ultrasounds. It was only picked up as he was being tested for another condition.


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## lochpearl (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			As I said previously, not all heart conditions are detectable by listening to the heart. My own son has fluid around his heart and needs to go for regular ultrasounds. It was only picked up as he was being tested for another condition.
		
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I said the horse went to the clinic for extensive testing, this was not just listening to the heart, the whole body was scanned and xrayed. Hence my comment that if these wonderful vets there can miss it in their own horse then they could also have missed it in yours.


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## Caledonia (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			TI don't get cheap horses vetted until they are at a level where I want to do harder work with them. But if I buy an expensive horse, I have them vetted for insurance purposes and because I usually buy them for competition.
		
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So it's about money then? You don't care if a cheap horse drops down dead until you've invested some time and energy into them?

Seriously, you're obviously dizzy with all these about turns and back-peddling, initially it was supposedly to do with the welfare aspect..........


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## Wagtail (27 April 2011)

lochpearl said:



			I said the horse went to the clinic for extensive testing, this was not just listening to the heart, the whole body was scanned and xrayed. Hence my comment that if these wonderful vets there can miss it in their own horse then they could also have missed it in yours.
		
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Very true. I have plenty experience of vets getting it wrong, believe me. I have been through many vets before getting one that I trust, though he too will not be infallible. But I am not going to put a horse into hard work without getting it checked out first. I think it is a financial price worth paying personally. But not everyone agrees, I know that too. It's entirely up to them.


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## PapaFrita (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			As I said previously, not all heart conditions are detectable by listening to the heart. My own son has fluid around his heart and needs to go for regular ultrasounds. It was only picked up as he was being tested for another condition.
		
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So in fact 5 stage vetting wouldn't pick up on many heart problems and are basically useless when assessing a horse's ability to cope with hard work.


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## Amaranta (27 April 2011)

Blimey Wagtail, I feel sorry for your bank balance!

TBH, if you have had horses for 40+ years and still can't gauge if your horse is fit enough/sound enough to stand up to the competition you intend to enter, then you have been doing something seriously wrong!  It must be all the about turns you keep doing


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## Cadfael&Coffee (27 April 2011)

Does anyone else think this thread's going around in circles?

*joins in with the head+desk people*


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## Wagtail (27 April 2011)

PapaFrita said:



			So in fact 5 stage vetting wouldn't pick up on many heart problems and are basically useless when assessing a horse's ability to cope with hard work.
		
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Where did the word 'many' come from? I said that it would not pick up 'all' heart conditions. But it does measure a horses ability to recover from exercise as well as simply listening to the heart at rest, which is an important health check. If you and others don't want to spend the money, that is entirely up to you. I think it is a sensible precaution. It is not only designed to pick up on heart conditions.


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## Wagtail (27 April 2011)

Cadfael&Coffee said:



			Does anyone else think this thread's going around in circles?

*joins in with the head+desk people*
		
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Yes, it is. I think we will have to agree to differ.


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## PapaFrita (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Where did the word 'many' come from? I said that it would not pick up 'all' heart conditions. But it does measure a horses ability to recover from exercise as well as simply listening to the heart at rest, which is an important health check. If you and others don't want to spend the money, that is entirely up to you. I think it is a sensible precaution. It is not only designed to pick up on heart conditions.
		
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I wouldn't spend it on a _vetting_ which is not designed to assess a horse's ability to cope with heavy work except at THAT particular point in time. And if I were just getting a horse's heart checked, a full vetting wouldn't be necessary.
Personally (and I mentioned this earlier) if I had doubts, I'd get scans, x-rays, scopes etc, and even those are open to interpretation and far from definitive. I don't think there's a vet in the world that would give you a guarantee that any particular horse will remain free from any illness or injury for any length of time, so it's all a bit arbitrary, isn't it?


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## Wagtail (27 April 2011)

PapaFrita said:



			I wouldn't spend it on a _vetting_ which is not designed to assess a horse's ability to cope with heavy work except at THAT particular point in time. And if I were just getting a horse's heart checked, a full vetting wouldn't be necessary.
Personally (and I mentioned this earlier) if I had doubts, I'd get scans, x-rays, scopes etc, and even those are open to interpretation and far from definitive. I don't think there's a vet in the world that would give you a guarantee that any particular horse will remain free from any illness or injury for any length of time, so it's all a bit arbitrary, isn't it?
		
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No, not really. If the mare I mentioned earlier were mine and I wanted her for eventing, then the vets findings would stop me from doing that activity with her. She appeared incrediby fit and had been on my yard a month when we got her vetted for my client to purchase. There is no way I would have had any idea she was unsuitable for hard work had she not been vetted. Two years on, she still has her heart murmur (checked at her last vaccination), and so I still would not event her.  But she looks as fit as a fiddle and feels lovely to ride. Her owner negotiated a much reduced purchase price for her and is very happy. But she is so thankful that she knows the mare has a potential problem and can therefor manage it accordingly. Of course, there are no guarantees that the mare will not just keel over, but at least the owner knows she is riding her within the boundaries recommended by the vets.


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## PapaFrita (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			No, not really. If the mare I mentioned earlier were mine and I wanted her for eventing, then the vets findings would stop me from doing that activity with her. She appeared incrediby fit and had been on my yard a month when we got her vetted for my client to purchase. There is no way I would have had any idea she was unsuitable for hard work had she not been vetted. Two years on, she still has her heart murmur (checked at her last vaccination), and so I still would not event her.  But she looks as fit as a fiddle and feels lovely to ride. Her owner negotiated a much reduced purchase price for her and is very happy. But she is so thankful that she knows the mare has a potential problem and can therefor manage it accordingly. Of course, there are no guarantees that the mare will not just keel over, but at least the owner knows she is riding her within the boundaries recommended by the vets.
		
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So, if you'd had a horse for a while, you'd still get it vetted before starting harder work, in preference to a vet just checking the heart or a full fitness work up (as described in a previous post)?


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## fburton (27 April 2011)

lochpearl said:



			I said the horse went to the clinic for extensive testing, this was not just listening to the heart, the whole body was scanned and *xrayed*.
		
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TBH, I'm surprised to hear that. Did the vet say what he/she was looking for in the radiographs?


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## Wagtail (27 April 2011)

PapaFrita said:



			So, if you'd had a horse for a while, you'd still get it vetted before starting harder work, in preference to a vet just checking the heart or a full fitness work up (as described in a previous post)?
		
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I would ask (as I have in the past) for a full basic health check of the horse. This would include some of the things that are carried out during a 5 * vetting such as checking the heart and lungs before and after strenuous exercise and when it has been rested for 20 - 30 minutes. I would also have flexion tests done and anything the vet suspects warrants further investigation. This has only happened twice though as most of my horses have been vetted on purchase. Both horses I had checked out passed as sound so cost me around £150 - £200 each. I thought it was money well spent for my peace of mind and the welfare of the horse. Others here obviously do not agree and that is their call.


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## lochpearl (27 April 2011)

fburton said:



			TBH, I'm surprised to hear that. Did the vet say what he/she was looking for in the radiographs?
		
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The vet was spending a lot of money on the horse and just wanted to cover everything, the horse had a whole day of every test they could possibly do just so they were sure that it was sound and well.


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## PapaFrita (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I would ask (as I have in the past) for a full basic health check of the horse. This would include some of the things that are carried out during a 5 * vetting such as checking the heart and lungs before and after strenuous exercise and when it has been rested for 20 - 30 minutes. I would also have flexion tests done and anything the vet suspects warrants further investigation. This has only happened twice though as most of my horses have been vetted on purchase. Both horses I had checked out passed as sound so cost me around £150 - £200 each. I thought it was money well spent for my peace of mind and the welfare of the horse. Others here obviously do not agree and that is their call. 

Click to expand...

One final question. Soo, if vettings/health checks are unreliable (you've said yourself things can be missed/problems develop at any time), both the owner of the horse that died at the HT and Baggybreeches COULD have had the horses checked and the checks could still have missed something crucial OR the problem could've not been one that would be picked up on the usual scans. So in fact there is nothing 'obvious' about either death and you were unfair to leap to conclusions.


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## Wagtail (27 April 2011)

PapaFrita said:



			One final question. Soo, if vettings/health checks are unreliable (you've said yourself things can be missed/problems develop at any time), both the owner of the horse that died at the HT and Baggybreeches COULD have had the horses checked and the checks could still have missed something crucial OR the problem could've not been one that would be picked up on the usual scans. So in fact there is nothing 'obvious' about either death and you were unfair to leap to conclusions.
		
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I have spoken to the owner of the horse that died at the hunter trial. Trotting around a local cross country course is not classed as hard work in the horse world, so why should she have had her horse checked out? As for Baggybreeches, she P2Ps without having her horses checked which is unthinkable for me, but which she explains she does not do because she thinks it is pointless due to previous experience. Again, I respect that as it is based on her own experiences and beliefs, even if they differ from my own. It may be that her horse could have been fully checked out and still died. It may be that one of my horses that has passed the vet dies of a heart attack. But it may also be that the vet could have pinpointed a problem with BBs horse and saved all the heartache. No one knows, do they? 

I am prepared to accept that people's opinions differ from my own, but why can't you accept that some people like myself like to get them checked out?


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## PapaFrita (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I have spoken to the owner of the horse that died at the hunter trial. Trotting around a local cross country course is not classed as hard work in the horse world, so why should she have had her horse checked out? As for Baggybreeches, she P2Ps without having her horses checked which is unthinkable for me, but which she explains she does not do because she thinks it is pointless due to previous experience. Again, I respect that as it is based on her own experiences and beliefs, even if they differ from my own. It may be that her horse could have been fully checked out and still died. It may be that one of my horses that has passed the vet dies of a heart attack. But it may also be that the vet could have pinpointed a problem with BBs horse and saved all the heartache. No one knows, do they? 

I am prepared to accept that people's opinions differ from my own, but why can't you accept that some people like myself like to get them checked out?
		
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I'm just suggesing that it was unfair of you to leap to conclusions; "Obviously this 'elderly' horse was not fit enough or had a heart problem that meant that cross country was too much for him."  Nothing 'obvious' at all about it and absolutely no guarantee that a check up on either horse would've thrown up any problems.
I don't have a problem with you having your horses checked, but don't think a 5 stage vetting is the best way to do it.


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## Wagtail (27 April 2011)

PapaFrita said:



			I'm just suggesing that it was unfair of you to leap to conclusions; "Obviously this 'elderly' horse was not fit enough or had a heart problem that meant that cross country was too much for him."  Nothing 'obvious' at all about it and absolutely no guarantee that a check up on either horse would've thrown up any problems.
		
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And that is why I have spoken privately to the owner of the horse referred to in the OP and apologised (she has confirmed this many pages ago), so I am puzzled as to why you are hanging onto it. Did you want me to do it again or something? 

The statement was not said in respect to BBs horse as it came before she mentioned her horse's death. All the discussions regarding vetting referred to horses in 'hard work', such as racing, eventing and endurance.


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## greygreg (27 April 2011)

Just reading this tread with interest. I lost my boy out on a hack, we were having a steady canter across a field when he dropped underneath me. He was 15 and as fit as a flea and showed no signs before hand. 

So speaking from experiance, would I have wanted to have found out about a possible heart condition before hand? (didnt know if he did, nothing ever showed up when I had vet checkups) No probably not, because after that I would have been petrified to do anything with him, and he would have been miserable for it. He enjoyed his work, loved to gallop and jump and went out doing what he enjoyed the most, cantering with his mate, ears pricked.


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## brighteyes (27 April 2011)

OK then, do racehorse trainers have their horses vetted for heart things before every bit of fast work and race?


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## Wagtail (27 April 2011)

greygreg said:



			Just reading this tread with interest. I lost my boy out on a hack, we were having a steady canter across a field when he dropped underneath me. He was 15 and as fit as a flea and showed no signs before hand. 

So speaking from experiance, would I have wanted to have found out about a possible heart condition before hand? (didnt know if he did, nothing ever showed up when I had vet checkups) No probably not, because after that I would have been petrified to do anything with him, and he would have been miserable for it. He enjoyed his work, loved to gallop and jump and went out doing what he enjoyed the most, cantering with his mate, ears pricked.
		
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What a horrible thing to happen, but sounds as though your boy was enjoying his life.  I have to admit that I would be afraid to do anything if I knew my horse had a heart problem. However, one of mine has had to retire very early due to a shoulder injury, and I can honestly say she has a very happy life here. I do other non strenuous things with her such as clicker training which she loves. We are all different in whether we would want to know about things such as heart problems. I probably would, but I understnd your reasons for not wanting to know.


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## Wagtail (27 April 2011)

brighteyes said:



			OK then, do racehorse trainers have their horses vetted for heart things before every bit of fast work and race?
		
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No, they don't. In fact, often they don't at all, ever. But I am not suggesting that horses are vetted before every bit of fast work or race.

Fact is, in racing, unless a horse is particularly valuable, very little is ever spent on accessing their health at any stage in their career. If they can't cope with the training or don't perform racing, then they go to the sales. No way would money be spent on trying to find out why.


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## brighteyes (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			No, they don't. In fact, often they don't at all, ever. But I am not suggesting that horses are vetted before every bit of fast work or race.

Fact is, in racing, unless a horse is particularly valuable, very little is ever spent on accessing their health at any stage in their career. If they can't cope with the training or don't perform racing, then they go to the sales. No way would money be spent on trying to find out why.
		
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Clearly as foolhardy as the rest of us, then...


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## Wagtail (27 April 2011)

brighteyes said:



			Clearly as foolhardy as the rest of us, then...
		
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It's down to money. Simple as. I would hate to think it was down to money with the majority of us.


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## Caledonia (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Fact is, in racing, unless a horse is particularly valuable, very little is ever spent on accessing their health at any stage in their career. If they can't cope with the training or don't perform racing, then they go to the sales. No way would money be spent on trying to find out why.
		
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Unbelievable tosh once again. You are making huge sweeping generalisations about hundreds of people (trainers and owners) you don't even know.  

I've ridden out for a few trainers, and know a lot of owners. They leave no stone unturned to try and get to the root of a problem with horses at all levels. Granted there will be a few as you describe, as there are in ALL areas of horse sport, but to damn racing in one fell swoop like that is frankly laughable. 

Racing spearheads so much of the research into equine well-being, I don't think even the most idiotic clown on here could argue that sending them to the sales is how its funded or researched. 

Though I expect you will.


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## Sportznight (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Fact is, in racing, unless a horse is particularly valuable, very little is ever spent on accessing their health at any stage in their career. If they can't cope with the training or don't perform racing, then they go to the sales. No way would money be spent on trying to find out why.
		
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That's a 'fact' is it?


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## Allover (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			It's down to money. Simple as. I would hate to think it was down to money with the majority of us.
		
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I have to disagree, there are so many things that can go wrong in life that if you spent all your time and money checking and cross checking everything that could go wrong then you would end up never leaving your own house let alone owning any kind of animal.


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## alligator40 (27 April 2011)

Good God.

I see wagtail hasn't put down her spade yet.

When is she ever going to STFU?


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## Zebedee (27 April 2011)

Wagtail the more I read of your total tosh the more I am led to the conclusion that despite your claims you have had very little to do with actual real horses.
Your recomendation that all horses have a full vetting prior to any serious work is so ludicrously impractical it beggars belief. Your arguments are flawed and your rationality non existent.
Please just go away. No one is gullible enough to take you seriously anymore, all you are doing now is making a fool of yourself.


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## ozpoz (27 April 2011)

'quote"

Fact is, in racing, unless a horse is particularly valuable, very little is ever spent on accessing their health at any stage in their career. If they can't cope with the training or don't perform racing, then they go to the sales. No way would money be spent on trying to find out why.[/QUOTE]

Hmm - isn't the Animal Health Trust based at Newmarket??  

Of the last 3 people I have spoken to who have interests in racing, one (owner) was calling in an animal behaviourist to his horse, one was a chiropracter employed in a racing yard, and my own back man goes round all the racing yards when he is in the area.


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## skewbald_again (27 April 2011)

I keep promising not to come back to this thread as it is giving me apoplexy.


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## Wagtail (27 April 2011)

Allover said:



			I have to disagree, there are so many things that can go wrong in life that if you spent all your time and money checking and cross checking everything that could go wrong then you would end up never leaving your own house let alone owning any kind of animal. 



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Oh yes, that is very true. That is why we all have to choose the things that we check. Can't go checking everything. 

I don't mind people who disagree with me one bit, so long as theyare polite about it.

As for Caledonia, Alligator et al. I really don't know why they continue replying to me as they never get a reply back. Though they always seem very drawn to my posts.  

Shout and call names all you like. It's very funny watching you.


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## Wagtail (27 April 2011)

ozpoz said:



			'quote"

Hmm - isn't the Animal Health Trust based at Newmarket??  

Of the last 3 people I have spoken to who have interests in racing, one (owner) was calling in an animal behaviourist to his horse, one was a chiropracter employed in a racing yard, and my own back man goes round all the racing yards when he is in the area.
		
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The AHT, Rossdales and Newmarket Equine Hospitals are indeed all based at Newmarket, yes. I have been to the former two on several occasions. As I already said, money will be spent on _valuable_ racehorses. I am personally familiar with two racing yards in Yorkshire (won't be more specific than that) and though both are run by lovely people who love horses, they do not go spending money on mediocre animals. They send them to the sales (or to me if I happen to be looking at the time and they have something suitable).

But the more wealthy owners with expensive horses spend a huge amount on their health. Of course they do.


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## ozpoz (27 April 2011)

umm, the owner is my car mechanic... it's his passion, he's not wealthy!
The rest were not representative of top level, either.


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## Caledonia (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I don't mind people who disagree with me one bit, so long as theyare polite about it.

As for Caledonia, Alligator et al. I really don't know why they continue replying to me as they never get a reply back. Though they always seem very drawn to my posts.  

Shout and call names all you like. It's very funny watching you.
		
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You continue to skip across tangents and refuse to answer posts because you can't produce a valid response. 

You know two Yorkshire trainers (or so you say) - I know a couple of Yorkshire trainers couldn't train ivy up a wall, doesn't mean I tar all trainers with the same brush tho' - you're using your limited parochial outlook and applying it to the world at large. 

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing......


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## Wagtail (27 April 2011)

ozpoz said:



			umm, the owner is my car mechanic... it's his passion, he's not wealthy!
The rest were not representative of top level, either.
		
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Well that is very good to hear.  You know we were talking about giving horses health checks to see if they were fit enough to race, right? I said that no, racing yards would not do that. No one that I know who races horses would give them a health check to see if they were fit to race unless they had been injured or ill. It would not be financially acceptable.

Maybe there are some exceptions to this? But not if the reactions of people on here are anything to go by.


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## skewbald_again (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			No one that I know who races horses would give them a health check to see if they were fit to race unless they had been injured or ill. It would not be financially acceptable.

Maybe there are some exceptions to this? But not if the reactions of people on here are anything to go by.
		
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You do talk some crap, Wagtail.


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## OEH (27 April 2011)

I've never heard so much rubbish from one person!!! 

My first horse died of a heart attack half way over a jump on a fun ride aged 10.  I'd had her vetted before buying her and all was fine.  The horse I'd had vetted before failed the vetting due to a heart murmur, 15 years later, the last I heard of him he was nearly 30 and still going strong having spent a large part of those 15 years eventing.

You really REALLY can't predict these things as there are far too many variables.

I rarely post, but you are honestly the most unpleasant sanctimonious person I've come across in a long time.


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## Caledonia (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Well that is very good to hear.  You know we were talking about giving horses health checks to see if they were fit enough to race, right? I said that no, racing yards would not do that. No one that I know who races horses would give them a health check to see if they were fit to race unless they had been injured or ill. It would not be financially acceptable.
		
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So when the bloods are wrong pre-race and they pull horses out, that's not checking health? When they don't run because they've scoped dirty pre-race that's not checking health? When they stop with them because there's heat in a leg and get it scanned and x-rayed that's not checking health?

You really haven't a scooby, have you?


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## Wagtail (27 April 2011)

pastie2 said:



			Well Wagtail, you seem to have spent most of your day on this forum, you must spend an huge amount of time having your horses vetted....... do you actually ride your horse/horses? Is there time? Most knowledgable people dont need a full vetting before they do serious work with their horses, they are aware of the fitness health etc. of their horses. As you know a heart attack can happen anytime, even if it had a 5* vetting the day before the event. Having said that, p2p and race horses in big yards are most often scoped before running to make quite certain all is well and a virus is not about to make itself present. But, that is in yards where horses are travelling to and from racecourses. I personally think you know begger all and you are a forum troll. Anyone else would have moved on and not been so obsessed in having the last word. You need to go and have a bleddy good 5* vetting and make it all better.
		
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 Yes, this thread needs leaving alone. Should have done it long ago. Just for the record, I've fed, turned out/brought in mucked out six, ridden two and given one lesson today. But you are quite right, I should have left this black hole of a thread alone, long ago. Will do now though. Thank you!


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## Zebedee (27 April 2011)

Given a lesson? Dear god you mean there are people out there stupid enough to pay for your opinion?
Out of interest just what are your qualifcations?


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## alligator40 (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Shout and call names all you like. It's very funny watching you.
		
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Not half as funny as watching you digging and back peddling.

I'm impressed at your ability to multi-task


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## alligator40 (27 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			You do talk some crap, Wagtail.
		
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## asyouwish (27 April 2011)

Wow some people are just mean!!!


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## Roasted Chestnuts (27 April 2011)

God people the horse was only 15 he wasnt elderly at all 

My 20 yr old need to chill a bit then if thats what people think.

My heart goes out to the owner of the horse who now has to see people condemning her for her taking him round, shame on you and thats alot coming from me


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## cptrayes (27 April 2011)

I had a horse died under me out on a hack, two weeks before his sixth birthday, of a weak aorta, which burst. No vetting would have found it, (unless he died during the vetting, but since he had hunted all winter that would be unlikely)  even if I had been mad enough to pay for a vet to tell me that I could hack my horse.

There are some right nutters on this forum, aren't there  ??


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## tania01 (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Oh yes, that is very true. That is why we all have to choose the things that we check. Can't go checking everything. 

I don't mind people who disagree with me one bit, so long as theyare polite about it.

As for Caledonia, Alligator et al. I really don't know why they continue replying to me as they never get a reply back. Though they always seem very drawn to my posts.  

Shout and call names all you like. It's very funny watching you.
		
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Perhaps the real reason you wont answer the likes of Caledonia,Alligator ect as you put is because you can't in fear of making yourself  look even more a bigger idiot then you already are.


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## skewbald_again (27 April 2011)

tania01 said:



			Perhaps the real reason you wont answer the likes of Caledonia,Alligator ect as you put is because you can't in fear of making yourself  look even more a bigger idiot then you already are.
		
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I think there may be a flaw in your argument, there, Tania.


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## tania01 (27 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			i think there may be a flaw in your argument, there, tania.  :d
		
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:d:d:d:d


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## alligator40 (27 April 2011)

skewbald_again said:



			I think there may be a flaw in your argument, there, Tania.  

Click to expand...

Yes, i'm a far superior idiot than caledonia


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## Caledonia (27 April 2011)

alligator40 said:



			Yes, i'm a far superior idiot than caledonia 

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You saying I'm common?


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## dominobrown (27 April 2011)

Well, i have read all the replies... took me a few hours 

Personally I am shocked and a bit offended by this thread. The OP wanted to point out the fact the horses can die at any level of competition and how awful it is. I agree with him/her.

It's awful for all those connected as well. Really sorry  xx

BB- I love the photo of your horse going down to the start, he looks so keen 
He obviously was a very talented and special horse. RIP Emerald xx
You obviously go out of your way to do the best for horses, as for instance with your other horse so to be accused of being negligent in any way is offensive. I would of reported Wagtail if I was you. 

I think I am speaking collectively here, an apology is all that is needed Wagtail.


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## alligator40 (27 April 2011)

Caledonia said:



			You saying I'm common?  

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crikey, no!

i'm hoping there is only one of you.


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## Willowx (27 April 2011)

That's awful  xxxx


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## Tnavas (27 April 2011)

Wagtail said:



			No, they don't. In fact, often they don't at all, ever. But I am not suggesting that horses are vetted before every bit of fast work or race.

Fact is, in racing, unless a horse is particularly valuable, very little is ever spent on accessing their health at any stage in their career. If they can't cope with the training or don't perform racing, then they go to the sales. No way would money be spent on trying to find out why.
		
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You really are so out of your depth.

Having worked in the racing industry for years I can tell you straight that owners/trainers take their horses health very seriously and when required the vet is called in.

BUT trainers and many of the staff are excellent horsemen (women) and through experience can SEE, FEEL and CHECK fitness levels themselves. Any experienced person who knows resting heart & respiration rates can check the effect of strenuous work on a horse.


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## Mike007 (27 April 2011)

Evelyn said:



			You really are so out of your depth.

Having worked in the racing industry for years I can tell you straight that owners/trainers take their horses health very seriously and when required the vet is called in.

BUT trainers and many of the staff are excellent horsemen (women) and through experience can SEE, FEEL and CHECK fitness levels themselves. Any experienced person who knows resting heart & respiration rates can check the effect of strenuous work on a horse.
		
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Have just wandered into this thread and seen so much cr+p ,and had to give a loud chear for Evelyn . Absolutely spot on!


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## Caledonia (1 May 2011)

alligator40 said:



			crikey, no!

i'm hoping there is only one of you.
		
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You won't be the only one!


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## naid pollyanna (1 May 2011)

Wagtail said:



			Why is someone competing an elderly horse?
		
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i suppose it depends how challenging the course was cant remember the height level was said but it might have only been a small height class and the horse might have been just classed as elderly i suppose you dont know we have a 17 year old that still does dressage and working hunter so...... very sad to hear that happened still but you cant say that just cause its local level it wont go wrong i suppose


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## smellsofhorse (1 May 2011)

It's very sad but I've heard if it happening a few times. 
Atleast its quick and the horse wouldn't have suffered.

Poor owner.


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## rachel12 (15 May 2011)

I have set up a Grass Sickness group in memory of my horse Magners.
Please add yourself and friends to spread awareness. Feel free to add pictures to wall in memory of horses affected by this horrible disease: 

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_190680500978828




Wagtail said:



			That is fair enough. I respect your experience as I have kept horses for forty years now and have come to the opposite opinion. You make decisions based on your experiences, and as yours are different from mine, you will have a different view point. I suppose I was just shocked that anyone would P2P without conducting a full health check of their horse as it would be unthinkable for me. But I do understand where you are coming from based on your own experience and judgements. I could be hacking out or doing a dressage test tomorrow and my own horse could have a heart attack. I don't get cheap horses vetted until they are at a level where I want to do harder work with them. But if I buy an expensive horse, I have them vetted for insurance purposes and because I usually buy them for competition. I have done very well from having horses insured and am by far the better off financially for it. The one horse I didn't insure (because he was dumped on me by a non paying livery and therefore was not mine) I ended up paying £4k for a colic operation for him and he still died! But he was a lovely boy and I wouldn't change that decision even though I had to take out a loan to pay for it. He deserved every chance.
		
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