# Mother and daughter have started fighting advice please!



## Bens_Mum (20 January 2011)

I've got three dogs a rescue rottie and two terriers (mother and daughter). The older terrier (3) has always been quite dominant but the others have taken no notice. Over the last couple of months the younger terrier (18 months) has started to challenge her mother. They have always had the odd 'spat' which was alot of growling but never escalated. The last couple of weeks it has been getting more agressive especially in the crate. 
This morning when I was walking them the younger dog was pestering her mother like she normally does then suddenly a huge fight started and I could hardly pull them appart to stop it even throwing things didn't work. No one was badly hurt but im wondering if anyone can offer any advice as to what we can do? 
I am going to work so have put the younger in the crate and left the older loose just in case. Im wondering if this is a 'phase' they are going through or if we should try and separate them longer term?


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## Maesfen (20 January 2011)

You didn't say which type terrier but we had Border Terriers for over 30 years and this happened to us only once (mother and daughter again, youngest was five years old so lived in harmony up until then but then suddenly started niggling each other which we kept in check for a couple of months but it suddenly flared up into full out war; they couldn't look at one another without having a right go so then we had to rehome the younger one as Borders never forget a grudge; they will keep it dormant for ages and then suddenly fly at that dog only, no others, for no reason that we can see so for us, it just wasn't worth the risk especially as we had a dozen more that all got on happily with both of them; it wasn't worth risking upsetting the applecart so the one had to go.  Borders are usually the happiest of dogs but if they do have a grudge they will never forget it so it's always advisable to rehome one if you can't guarantee being able to keep them apart.
It might settle down once the pecking order is established but are you prepared to risk a bloodbath if it doesn't and someone has forgotten to keep them seperate?


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## Ranyhyn (20 January 2011)

My old mother and son, labxspringer and mongrel, started and never stopped.  The dog was always after dominance and even in her old age they'd start.

My terriers. Unrelated litter mates have only once gone at it.  A saucepan of water sorted it nicely, as smacking etc only escalates the problem.

However I am lead to believe in my books, a pack leader wouldn't be interested in lower level dogs fighting, but of course as owners you want it to stop so the pack leader always says what's ok and what's not ok.  Sounds like your bitches are fighting to be top female maybe?

Some people deliberately raise one's pack standing and drop anothers, let the mum sit higher than the pup, feed mum first etc but I don't know personally if that really works or not, maybe someone else can help.

If water doesn't work, stick through the collar and twist to choke them off.


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## jendie (20 January 2011)

This is a dominance issue and is happening because the youngster is reaching maturity and planning on being higher in rank than her mum. If you want to persevere you should support the stronger dog, even if this means supporting the youngster. Feed her first, pat her first and consistently give her priority over the mum. Getting mum speyed would reduce her standing further so that might help settle the issue.

But sometimes these fights get nasty and you might decide it would be easier for everyone if you rehomed one of the dogs.

PS Muzzles on both might prevent injuries and vet bills.


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## Bens_Mum (20 January 2011)

Thanks for the replies. They are jrt and similar size/ build. Favouring one seems to cause a riot as neither will back down. This morning the younger had the older by the neck and nothing was getting her off. The rottie took no notice at all and thankfully ignores both when they try to dominate her. Its such a shame as we adore both of them. I never imagined parting with either but it sounds like the only way forwards . . .


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## SamanthaG (20 January 2011)

Have them spayed, get a behaviourist out to help you, they may noticed something you have missed. I wouldnt just re home, there are often ways around problems. Bitches are usually worse then dogs for holding a grudge. Look into their diet, exercise, health etc walk them together on the lead, dogs bond when working together, sometimes a simple change in health can cause one to be more sensitive and totally change their behaviour. And with bitches their hormones are often all over the place when not spayed.


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## SamanthaG (20 January 2011)

Also two dogs should never share the same crate its a personal space for each of them.


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## gunnergundog (20 January 2011)

Firstly, get someone very experienced to come and assess which is the stronger of the two bitches......it's amazing the number of times the owner thinks it's dog A and in fact it's dog B!  Once you have ascertained that, then you can start a program of reinforcing that dogs status, by feeding it first, paying it attention first etc etc.  If this begins to show some results then it may be worth speying the under-dog in order to make the status gap even bigger.

All of this MAY work.  However, your dogs are VERY close in age and the saying is 'dogs fight for breeding rights and bitches fight for breathing rights.'  Certainly, I would NOT be leaving these two alone unsupervised at all at present and it just MAY be that your options end up being either dividing your house so that the two terriers never meet or deciding to rehome one of them. 

Whatever you do, do not spey both of them, nor get even one of them speyed without getting an experienced behaviourist to verify that you are choosing the correct one.  It's not always a case of pup pushing boundaries and trying to usurp mum, so therefore spey mum and all is resolved.


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## Bens_Mum (20 January 2011)

Dthank you for all the brilliant advice. I had no idea about the crates so will definately pick another up tonight and keep them seperate. Can anyone recommend a dog behaviourist in derby area?


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## CAYLA (20 January 2011)

This is a very commaon scenario and as suggested by Jendie the younger is now maturing and stepping up her rank.
I personally would never do the whole feed first, stroke first scenario, to be it can actually cause more problems an instigate further aggression/domainance as their is still a rank to climb be it sooner or later, it should simply be you (leader) then dogs eaqual.
There is nothign worse then bitch fighting and it's hard to stop, but by being firm and reprimanding the instigator you will get ontop of it, esp when you are there, otherwise crate one and leave one out but still within the pack area, where the rott and other terrier would sleep.
My dogs share crates, if I need to crate my whips when I have boarders in they snuggle together, however some I would never crate together.

Don't give them an extra reason to start a fight, i.e. toys/posessions, generally fighting will escualte to a scrap erupting asoon as excitement is initiated, or a human walks into the pack, so if your dogs currently get excited at your arrival, then tone it down, no touch, talk or eye contact when u come home or fussing and greeting of any dog, learn them all to be calmer in general and respect a few rules, reprimand them formly for other unwanted behaviour so they get to understand your use a reprimand and learn them what the consuiquence of an action/unwanted behaviour is.
Watch for body language, and step in where u can before it esculates, find your "voice" your angry........ I wont take no **** voice, and remove the aggressor from the room for time out, and use your "no" or "leave it", you should get to the stage where your voice alone will have them scatter, but in the meantime haul the aggressor out of the room, give them 5 mins out then let them re enter the room without a word said if the other dog moves towards the re entering dog then use your voice "get back now", never perminantly keep them apart as this will heighten the aggression towards one another, only when u are out.


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## CorvusCorax (20 January 2011)

That's why they're called bitches! Nothing to add to the good advice already given, just be assertive and don't take any nonsense.


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## Ranyhyn (21 January 2011)

Agree about the "voice"...  nowerdays if I swear, my dogs scarper 

Might've only stubbed my toe but they think they've done something wrong!


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## Bens_Mum (21 January 2011)

Last night I Took all your advice and kept them separate. They are still having a g at each other from inside the crates (separate). This mening in the garden they were ok but still snappy. I'm going to call some dog behavuorists today and see what they say but they don't seem to be dropping it!


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## SamanthaG (21 January 2011)

It wont stop over night, and often wont go away completly but it can be managed, a lot of poeple with a number of dogs (myself included) expect at least one fight now and then and its usually the bitches.


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## Bens_Mum (21 January 2011)

They are realy grumbling at each other, heckles up etc. The younger keeps nipping at her mothers neck (appears playful) this seems to be the trigger and she just won't pack it up. Mother comes across as the agressor but im wondering if its this nipping behavior thats dominant? The younger is the only one with heckles up but is making a whining noise with it? Hopefully one of the dog behaviorists will call back. Thanks again everyone!


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## echodomino (21 January 2011)

My two JRT girlies are mother and daughter and they hate each other. I had Mouse back when she was 9months old, Millie would have been about 3, they were fine at first. They started scrapping on walks, I'd throw a stick or ball or something and Millie would start on Mouse. So I stopped doing that. Then I'd take them swimming and Millie would start on Mouse. So separated them and it's safer obviously but it's made things worse. Now both of them will start and sometimes it's over nothing. I can still walk them together but Millie has to stay on a lead or she starts on Mouse and they have to be caged separately in the car.


Which is why now Mouse lives with my parents, it's just not worth the risk as both have had numerous trips to the vets and one time we nearly lost Mouse through shock.

The other problem is bitches never forget, we had 2 males who had a fight and we separated them to calm down, put them back together fine no probs. Millie and Mouse do it, separate them, they calm down, put them together and one still wants to eat the other.

It depends how bad they've gotten as to how successful you are in changing them. I think everyone's covered what to do


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## cobgirlie (21 January 2011)

Firstly get them both spayed and fast. Secondly ignore all the 'pack leader' nonsense and use commonsense. Separate sleeping areas, eating and when walking have someone with you so one walks one and one the other, don't 'promote' one dog over the other it's a load of tosh. Younger dog is maturing that's all, hormones are flying and as we all know when ladies are hormonal fur will fly (excuse the pun!!).

The younger one is nipping because she wants to play puppy games with mum, mum has had enough and puppy isn't a puppy anymore but baby still thinks mum should be reacting as she did when it was younger.  

Find a good training class and take the younger one to it and if possible find a agility class for both (or rottie as well it shows an interest) of the terriers, a few sessions at a agility center and they'll be too shattered to fight!! Terriers need mental stimulation and sounds like these 2 are bored.   Tired dogs do not fight..I have a pack of currently 13 dogs (some foster some mine) and have never once had any fights, even with new dogs introduced and others removed..they are walked 3 times a day for an hour off lead, when they get home they sleep and never a cross word is uttered.


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## SamanthaG (21 January 2011)

What food are they on? make sure it isnt one packed with sugar and colourants


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## CAYLA (21 January 2011)

From what you describe the youngster is the instigator with the nipping to the neck, thats more dominant behaviour than play, and the elder is just telling her to "bog off" which is resulting in the elder being resentful of her presence in general and the younger retaliaiting to the elders aggression, u need to curb the pestering bahaviour of the younger bitch yourself, step in and stop her!, I personally would be giving her a good dig and a "leave it" and sending her on her way, and each time she does this step in and do the same, don't leave it to the elder bitch to have to put the younger in her place otherwise you are going to have fights on your hands forever more.
Also cover their crates so they cannot goad one another or cover one and she how the other reacts, I agree with Cobiegirl re the leadership, as I also mentioned........ in relation to the dogs, but I strongly belive in owner leadership and it seems at present there is none within your household, I too have 10 dogs and bring vast amounts into my home (rescues/boarders) I have never had a fight, and I have 5 dogs 5 bitches, I keep them in line, and they know better than to cross it.
See what your behaviourist has to say, but be warey of them spouting the whole, feed, treat, stroke first thing.


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## millimoo (21 January 2011)

We had an older bitch who gave a bad vibe with other dogs. They lost their older (top) dog, and got a puppy. All was well, until said puppy was bigger than the bitch, and they started vying for top dog. Eventually the bitch was scared of the dog, and he didn't need a 2nd ask to have a go. The final straw was he went into the cage, my dad dragged him out, and the poor bitch came out with him by the throat (she was ok, but shaken up)
They got a very good dog behaviourist in, and he confirmed my mum was the trigger everytime, and they took steps to address it but in the end my mum decided to rehome the pup at 11months after the final incident (he went to a wonderful home,and his new owner doted on him - they stayed in touch till he died of bone cancer 2 yrs ago)
At the time, she heard some real horror stories of friends dogs being left and fighting to the death (pre-crate days)

Most recently my friend who bred my lab has rehomed one of her breeding bitches.
Her and her sister are 6 months apart, and over the years have periodically had fights.
However they had a couple of serious ones, that she managed with the use of muzzles, seperation and cages. For a while she had it all sorted, until they started off again.
The final fight resulted in half an ear being bitten off and blood up the walls and ceiling.

Not wanting to put a downer on it all, as some bitches can be managed, it's just how far you are prepared to go for a happy, relaxed household because it will at times be hard.

However they are smaller - we were dealing with two large bullmastiff that are much harder to pull apart.

I really hope a behaviourist can help you unpick and manage them both.


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## Foxyfilly (21 January 2011)

Get the younger one spayed. Spaying them both will only confuse matters.

You might eventually have to rehome 1 of them. Bitches never forget.


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## echodomino (21 January 2011)

cobgirlie said:



			Tired dogs do not fight..
		
Click to expand...

Not true in every case, I've walked Millie to tire her out and my mum's taken Mouse and done the same, one's still narked off the other and it's broken out in a fight between the two.

Same as you though, there were 11 dogs in the house when I lived with my parents and there was never a scrap excepting the one I mentioned in my other post, and the 2 JRT girls. They have at least an hours free running every day.

Millie is spayed, Mouse isn't yet, it's not made any difference.

A friend of mine has 2 JRTs, not mother and daughter though, and they were really bad when it came to fighting. They tried everything, was already doing agility with both (she's my instructor) nothing. Went to an animal behaviourist because it got that bad, made a mild difference for a little bit but they ended up having to keep them separate all the time.


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