# Arcequine or Ice Vibe boots?



## pootleperkin (6 August 2013)

Hi All,

The unthinkable happened last week - on having a bit of jumping practice over at REC, Gully landed on 3 legs, wafting his right fore around in the air. I got off in dread, with thoughts of a very broken horse clouding my thoughts and also, the chance to head to HOYS slipping away from us! Not good. Anyway, he would put all his weight on it so I managed to get him home in the trailer. 

Long story short, after x-rays (clean), scanning yesterday, much improvement in his lameness, the assessment is that has inflamed his DDFT, so two weeks more box rest has been prescribed. I'm hoping that all goes well and am thanking everything (gods, false idols, bits of sticks!) that it wasn't worse.

However, two weeks of box rest, with no guarantee that that will do it, plus enforced breaks as I'm away with work for a week on the 19th, and then again for 10 days in mid-September, means that fitness time prior to HOYS is looking a little limited. He is a horse that needs a lot of work to ensure he can canter around a ring for as long as the judge requests without getting puffed.

So here is the question - if you could afford one adjunctive therapy to try and speed things up/improve the quality of healing, which would you go for, Ice vibe boots or the Arcequine system?

Thoughts?

I'm on a hungry day today, so no offerings, sorry!


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## Gamebird (6 August 2013)

Icevibe boots, definitely. There's plenty of evidence for keeping tendons cool in the initial stages post injury.


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## quizzie (6 August 2013)

I would go for the arc equine, because you can ice the leg yourself (cheaply if more labour intensive), but you can't generate your own micro-current !


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## pootleperkin (6 August 2013)

If it adds to the debate, he is being cold hosed three times a day, has a Bonner (ice) bandage applied at least twice a day, and at all other times when stable bandaged, ice tight is put on first.


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## Tempi (6 August 2013)

I have the ice vibe boots and they are brilliant,  have been invaluable in helping my mares check ligament injury.  

However if you are already doing all that icing and cold hosing I am not sure they would be necessary for you so I would go with the arc equine unit


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## Billykid (6 August 2013)

Had a lecture by arcequine and I was completely amazed at what it can do. Worth a try


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## Muckmeister (6 August 2013)

No experience with arcequine but love my ice vibes! They are just easy to do and work well in my management regime (horses are on part livery, so I can't always do everything myself).
Have recently bought a second set for after-event care.


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## measles (6 August 2013)

Only used Icevibe and been very impressed both by them and the customer service from Horseware


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## TarrSteps (6 August 2013)

Just a note, make sure you do a search on Arcequine on here if you go that route. As previously stated, I'm very interested in and thus far positive about the use of MCT, BUT it seems some people are going in without all the information. I'm not trying to put you off, just saying do your reading so you don't have any surprises.

Cold therapy is old, boring and unsexy but it's still around because there is irrefutable evidence it works. I was a bit put off by the Ice Vibe boots because the demonstrator who showed them to me seemed to have a very dodgy grasp of horse anatomy but that's not the boots' fault.


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## pootleperkin (6 August 2013)

Tarrsteps, I had a good search on Pubmed to look at the science behind micro current therapies, and given that it is fairly established in the treatment of human wounds, for example often in diabetes ulcerations and the like, I was fairly convinced that it is not quack medicine. There are a good few papers that show it recruits and polarises (galvanotaxis) fibroblasts. I have searched on here and most of the posts seem to be positive - is that not your impression? I'm guessing you are referring to the skin irritation that some folk are having in terms of the surprises element - PM me if you like?

I quite like the idea of the Ice Vibe boots, but as Tempi said, I am doing a fair bit of cold therapy in other ways, so should I choose the arcequine as it is a different mode of therapy? That's a bit of a rhetorical question I guess! Also, as the strain is low on the pastern, I'm wondering if the boot would effectively cover than low down?

If anyone is interested  here are some of the pubmed search results: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=microcurrent healing&cmd=correctspelling


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## TarrSteps (6 August 2013)

I would agree, the research is promising and my own experience (personal as well as horse) is positive so I'm quite happy to feel Arc-positive. I will say though the one reaction I saw in the flesh was not a simple "skin irritation" either in appearance or on the scans. This would worry me a bit for a show horse - it would suck if you did all the work then couldn't compete because the horse has a leg like a sausage. 

Again, NOT putting anyone off - certainly not you, op, who is well equipped to judge as you find - it's just that when the last discussion of negative experiences cropped up many people said that "no one" had warned them. I was a bit alarmed at the initial selling point that the technology could never do harm - the discussions re human use do involve qualifiers and conditions. I'm just leery of anyone who says "never" or "always" and while it might not be germane to this discussion, I think it bears mentioning.


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## pootleperkin (6 August 2013)

That's interesting TS - I hadn't seen the threads with sausage legs involved! I'm guessing the irritation could be down to the mode of application...not enough gel and the like? I sometimes see skin irritation when using ultrasound and gels in humans, though defo not to sausage reaction proportions....scary!


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## philamena (6 August 2013)

Hi PP
There are incidents of irritation that are definitely not about the mode of application / not enough gel etc. It seems some horses are sensitive or develop sensitivity - one or two as TS has said have had very dramatic reactions, mine (and I) developed a reaction after a few weeks. I haven't put it back on the horse yet because I've emailed Ian at Arc Equine a couple of times with questions about it and not heard back, but having put it back on myself it kicked the reaction back off straight away, which was a bit annoying. 
Lots of good results and overall I think it's the early stages of something v promising, but do be careful because it's not all plain sailing for everyone - to be fair to it, that's like with almost any treatment I guess.  You may not get sausage legs  or you may get bits of localised swelling which look like an injury, or you may get scabby lumpy bits... or you may get absolutely no reaction at all.


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## pootleperkin (6 August 2013)

Thanks Philamena, that's really interesting. Particularly so as both you and horse react to it, when others don't...do you think it suggests that there is something up with your particular unit?


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## philamena (6 August 2013)

Hi - no I don't think there is something wrong with the unit (good question though). Quite a few people have had reactions of various degrees - and the company acknowledge that some horses have minor reactions, not sure about their response on people who've had bigger reactions as not sure whether any of those people have communicated it back to them. I remember one of the bigger discussions about the issues some people have had was in a thread which didn't mention the unit in the title of the thread though, so prob won't have come up in the search. As I say, loads of positive stories to recommend it, but just be aware that there are quite a few who've had issues. 
Having said that, say there are issues with some of the units rather than in general some horses / people react, and you get one of the units that is a bit off, you won't find out until you get a reaction  It may be a bit of a risk with a big do coming up?

ETA I think it was reactions which caused them to redesign the leg pad - some do say the minor reactions are much better with the new pads. I'm trying to try one, but when I emailed to ask whether they thought it would make a difference I didn't hear back


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## TarrSteps (6 August 2013)

Three of the people I know who had reactions themselves were using different machines and in my own case, the unit I used caused a minor reaction in a person, a major one in one horse, only transient discomfort (and overall improvement) in me, and no reaction at all in other people. I also used it on a dog but it was so difficult to make a good connection I don't know if she objected to the machine or what I had to do to attach it.

Reading up on the people reports, reactions to mct are not unheard of. There are also conditions for which it is contraindicated, although this doesn't seem to be discussed at all with regard to horses.

My feeling is anything that has an effect can do good or harm. You can't have it both ways. After all, cold can give you frostbite! The trick is knowing the whys and wherefores so you can assess the risk.


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## pootleperkin (6 August 2013)

Thanks for bringing all of this up.....I *hadn't* realised the reactions could be so large, so very interesting and cautionary. I'll have a good think - it would be just like Gully to react with his general crappy veterinary history!


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## DonkeyClub (6 August 2013)

What kind of reactions are we talking about? I think we need to be more specific here!!


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## pootleperkin (6 August 2013)

philamena said:



			You may not get sausage legs  or you may get bits of localised swelling which look like an injury, or you may get scabby lumpy bits... or you may get absolutely no reaction at all.
		
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Sobered up, these sort of reactions above..... I couldn't say, as I have never even touched a unit, let alone seen one used and do good or bad, hence my interest!


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## pootleperkin (6 August 2013)

Also, can anyone tell me if the ice vibe boots will come right down the pastern, as that is where his swelling is?


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## DonkeyClub (6 August 2013)

Well I have an arc equine... Never had any probs... From the sounds of it people are making out that horses are going to explode or something ! Ha ha.. I can't understand how a permanent sausage leg would develope from it? Seems totally bizarre to me!


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## TarrSteps (6 August 2013)

Soberedup, where did anyone say a horse would explode? All anyone has said is that not every experience has been without complications - just like any other therapy - even though reviews are over all very positive. The other thread mentioned goes into more detail. Would it be better if people did not mention their experiences? That's super that all your experiences have been successful and trouble free - that seems to be true in the majority of cases. But even the people who sell the products and believe wholeheartedly in the therapy don't say it's a magic wand.


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## TarrSteps (6 August 2013)

Re swelling, one of the things mct does do - one of its purported benefits - is affect cellular membrane permeability. Surely the question is why wouldn't it cause swelling under certain situations?


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## pootleperkin (7 August 2013)

So no one has replied to my pastern Q - looking at the boots, I don't think I will be able to get them to fasten lower down the leg due to their shape? Any thoughts? If I can't get ice to the swollen area, then not much cop.....

However, the vibration might still work, as it will increase blood flow to whole lower circulation......


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## amage (7 August 2013)

pootleperkin said:



			So no one has replied to my pastern Q - looking at the boots, I don't think I will be able to get them to fasten lower down the leg due to their shape? Any thoughts? If I can't get ice to the swollen area, then not much cop.....

However, the vibration might still work, as it will increase blood flow to whole lower circulation......
		
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We use extra ice packs to treat the pastern....personally I find the ice packs for the hock wraps are better suited for pasterns as there is no Velcro on them and the boot holds them in place!


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## Pasha (8 August 2013)

I haven't joined into any of the AE threads before as in the context of those discussions I didn't feel I could add anything, but as people are questioning specific reactions, I will share my experience.

I will add the caveat though that I do not know why my horse reacted in the way he did or if indeed the AE was a factor in his injury getting worse. Ian and his daughter were completely supportive throughout the 5 weeks I used the AE and I would suggest anyone interested in trying this technology on their horse contact them rather than relying solely on information from a forum.

My horse went slightly lame in April and was diagnosed (via scan) with a sprain to his Check Ligament. He had the tiniest little swelling which looked like he was throwing a splint. I ordered the AE after reading about it on here and started using it after 1 week of box rest.

After a month of box rest (3 weeks of using the AE), the vet came back and said it was healing fantastically and we could start in hand walking 5-10 mins.

The first week went great and then his leg swelled up big time and he was hobbling lame. It was also about this time he started to loose fur on his legs where I put the AE (I swapped it from leg to leg as advised by Ian).

The vet came back and couldn't find much so we did another week in the box.

I then tried walking him again (5 weeks in to using AE) and his leg blew up again! Vet came and re-scanned and found a Moderately Large Core Lesion to the DDFT, significant swelling of the Check Lig where it joins the DDFT and an enlarged SDFT :0

I told Ian about the sores and the swelling. He sent me new leg pads to use but I decided I just couldn't risk using it again. We have no clue how my horse managed to do the damage he did whilst on box rest and restricted excersise, but I just couldn't take the risk that the AE had some part in it - he definately felt it when I turned it on as he would try and step away (obviously couldn't as it was strapped to his leg).

It took another 4 weeks for his poor legs to heal from all the sores and he has only now just been given the go ahead to start walking out again.

Well and truly learnt my lesson though and now only using what the vet tells me too!


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## cundlegreen (8 August 2013)

Pasha,
Sorry to hear about your experience with Arc. I also bought a unit after reading the forum here, and am using it everyday on a TB who had a torn tendon sheath on the knee. Both his front legs were clipped out prior to his op, and he is a light grey, so a prime candidate for sores. I have had two small sore places come up in five weeks of treatment. Bearing in mind that he has the unit on for 6 hours at a go, and the weather has been very hot here,I don't think things are going too badly. I have swapped legs to give the other one a time to heal, but feel that the problem may have been caused by the leg gel supplied. This just runs off the pads before you can even attach them, and I have reapplied no end of times due to the delivery unit showing a poor connection. I have now started using ultra sound gel, which stays on much better, and gives a better contact. I wash off with plenty of cold water after treatment, as the pad sites are very dark, and make sure that all traces of gel are removed. The jury is out as to whether it has helped him. We won't know until the scan at the end of the month, but externally, the leg looks very good. I did try this unit on my knee which was very sore after XC course walking, and in two days, I was completely sound again. Having said that, I don't think that this is a "cureall" as Ian would want you to believe. My biggest concern is what you get for the cost of the unit. I've already had to send back one delivery unit twice as being faulty, and am concerned that there are no warrenty/guarantees given with the package, although Ian has been very quick to replace.


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## Sults (9 August 2013)

A friend of mine tried the arc equine on her horse everyday for 6 months. It didn't make any difference and her vets actually took the arcequine unit apart and found that there was no current! it was basically just a box that didn't do anything!


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## philamena (9 August 2013)

Sults said:



			A friend of mine tried the arc equine on her horse everyday for 6 months. It didn't make any difference and her vets actually took the arcequine unit apart and found that there was no current! it was basically just a box that didn't do anything!
		
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If that's the case I think it's likely to have been an issue with that particular unit: there's definitely a current from the working units, whether or not it always does the things it's claimed to do. I'm not sure how a vet would measure whether there's a microcurrent when it's designed not to be big enough to feel physically? Presumably they'd need some kind of meter specifically for measuring microcurrents?


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## Sults (9 August 2013)

I've no idea how they measured it either. There must be a way, and you would kinda hope they are tested before being sent out otherwise how does the client know it is working.
Even knowing what had happened with the one my friend had bought, i was still interested in trying this on my horse earlier this year and i spoke to my own vet about it. My vet emailed Ian asking him about the unit but Ian never replied! This did eventually put me off purchasing one. Luckily my horse made full recovery with shockwave therapy & box rest anyway


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## pootleperkin (9 August 2013)

You'd just need a voltmeter, a simple bit of lab/electrical kit to see if there was any current running.


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## philamena (9 August 2013)

pootleperkin said:



			You'd just need a voltmeter, a simple bit of lab/electrical kit to see if there was any current running.
		
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Is that the kind of thing vets usually have?


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## pootleperkin (9 August 2013)

Not sure - they are a general kind of thing to have around a science lab and inexpensive, so wouldn't be surprised. Not difficult to get hands on either - any electrician should have one.


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## TarrSteps (9 August 2013)

I would be very surprised if it was 'standard' for the units to not have a current - I would be willing to accept a placebo/nacebo effect in people but that would not explain some of the reactions in horses.


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## Ian Thirkell (18 August 2013)

I have been following this thread with interest, and had intended, and do still intend, to answer some of the earlier points.
However, after 3 days away from home, visiting equine professionals and clinicians ( including one of the largest and best known Equine Veterinary Practices in the country,) I have just revisited this thread and am astonished, and very angry, at some of the latter comments that have been made. 
I feel compelled to respond to them, despite the time.
Early on in my research into, and anecdotal use of micro-current technology, I discontinued an association with an individual with whom I had been working, purely because I insisted on being totally inclusive of the Veterinary Establishment. He had a totally contrary opinion. That decision by me "cost me" £25,000 !!
I have never knowingly failed to respond to any communication from anyone, least of all a Vet.
I pride myself on my personal availability ( 9am - 9p, Monday - Sunday ) and, although I'm not beyond making mistakes in this area, I think that most people who have had dealings with me will confirm the quality of my "service".
With regard to the Vet who has apparently taken apart an ArcEquine ( presumably a Delivery Unit  ??) and found there to be  "no current, it being nothing more than a black box "
It is no secret that I have no clinical or veterinary background or training. I served ( with pride ) as a Metropolitan Police Officer, retiring in 1997 after 30 years service, the last 14 of those in the rank of Inspector.
I was introduced to the technology in 2001, and initially thought of it as a modern type of witchcraft. But I kept an open mind ( which is all that I ever ask of others ), researched widely, and the last 12 years of my life have been dedicated to exploring the boundaries of it's clinical application. In ALL animals. 
And in that time I have been privileged, and humbled, to witness totally unique results in a number of clinical areas. Results which are exciting a lot of other people, including respected and experienced clinicians.
I am driven by the potential of this technology!!
Bearing all of that in mind: - 
Does any sane person really suggest / believe that I would allow to be purchased "from me "( I have never advertised ArcEquine, nor positively commercialised it until Monday of this week ) something that I did not genuinely believe to be effective for the uses stated and where I have personally witnessed positive outcomes?
And further to that, and notwithstanding my attitude regarding the potential importance of the technology, does it not occur to people that what "that Vet" suggests ( just a black box, with no currents ) is an allegation of a very serious criminal offence, one which I would obviously be aware that I was committing if I were to supply such a "box", and that if taken to Court I would obviously be found guilty??!!
The outcomes would be as follows :-
I would receive a custodial sentence
I would lose the Police pension that I had worked for for 30 years ( with monthly contributions of 11% of my wage.) 
           This is my only income, and has been since my retirement. I have received NO other income during
           the last 12 years
           Over that time my personal outgoings, plus my current debt, amount to £500,000
My reputation would be in tatters
The technology would be totally discredited
I would not be able to repay my debts
Need I go any further??
You may get the impression that I'm not very happy that such accusations about my honesty and integrity have been made on this thread. Anonymously. AND YOU WOULD BE B****Y CORRECT!!
I challenge the "author" of the accusation to come back on this thread, to identify themselves AND the Vet who had taken the box apart, etc.
They will very quickly find themselves in Court, and in support of the "prosecution" I will have an array of witnesses, and among them will be Electrical engineers, Professors, Consultants, Doctors, Physios, Vets, Farriers, owners, trainers, riders, Olympic athletes, Premiership and International rugby players, and some British Lions. All, you will note, in the plural.
In addition, a selection of successful users, previously sufferers with a variety of clinical conditions.
Then we'll definitely see who, to put it politely (though they don't deserve it ), have been economical with the truth!! Ian Thirkell. Director. ArcEquine


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## Marydoll (26 August 2013)

pootleperkin said:



			So no one has replied to my pastern Q - looking at the boots, I don't think I will be able to get them to fasten lower down the leg due to their shape? Any thoughts? If I can't get ice to the swollen area, then not much cop.....

However, the vibration might still work, as it will increase blood flow to whole lower circulation......
		
Click to expand...

Just found this thread, the boot of the arc equine doesnt need to be placed over the injury for it to work, it can even be on the other leg, so if it was my horse id just put the boot on the damaged leg. I had a problem with a leg strap that had stopped working, got in touch and had replacements ( note plural ) sent through very quickly free of charge, i have found the customer service to be excellent


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## TarrSteps (26 August 2013)

I think the question was for the ice boots. Would be interested to know if they found a solution.


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## Jane_Lou (26 August 2013)

Our mare gave herself a proper whack on the knee last weekend and I have Ice Vibe boots. What I found was that the boots with the ice packs on setting 2 created a lots of vibration in the knee anyway so I would hold another ice pack on her knee for a but bit basically let the boots do their job. Swelling has gone down in no time. I imagine the same would be true of the pastern area?


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## pootleperkin (26 August 2013)

Mary Doll - TS is correct, I was referring to the fitting of the boot for the ice vibe, not ArcEquine. it sounds as if you are another with a good experience of the unit.

Ian, so sorry you have been annoyed by the thread - as the OP, that certainly wasn't my intention - I simply wanted to find out what people thought of the therapy as I started to look for options for my horse's lameness.

I haven't gone down the road of either the ice vibe or ArcEquine as yet. It looks as if my horse has a severe sprain after further investigation, so I have maintained his box rest and hosing/ice bandage as advised by my vet. It is taking some time, but he is improving.

I decided not to take the ArcEquine any further in this instance, as although I have looked at the science behind MC therapies and most peer review publications look very positive, I have been slightly worried by the range of adverse reactions reported in a minority of cases. I would normally go with the statistics (do you have any figures on adverse reactions?) and what seems to be a large majority of people who have positive outcomes with the unit, but given my horse seems to be the unluckiest in the world when it comes to disease and sensitivities, I have decided not to risk it, given that I have a finite date and showing event to have him sound for - I don't want to risk other complications or blemishes. I understand I might be cutting my nose to spite my face so to speak, but I really just feel at this point I can't risk the unknown. My vet has not experienced the AE either, so he cannot advise me. Under less pressured circumstances, I might have given it a go. The other reason I have not gone ahead is due to my finances. I am very interested in the therapy and certainly would not rule it out for future use. 

Vet is due out to see us this week and assess how to proceed. G is now sound in walk, nearly so in trot and the swelling and heat has reduced greatly. I have had everything crossed that he recovers in time now for so long, I'm starting to chafe!


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