# Correcting Dominant Behaviour HELP!



## littlemiss1 (26 May 2015)

I wonder if anyone could give me some advice. I have a 7 year old hw cob gelding which I've had for the last 18months, when i first got him he was very poor and very sorry for himself. slowly he's been built up and looks unrecognisable, but i have noticed that as his condition improved his temperament changed. I knew that it would because he was so low before so it was nice to see his personality come through once he was feeling better. 
The problem is his behaviour has become dangerous now. it began with him being a bit bargy and bolshy when leading round the yard, to him biting the lead rope when ever it was in reach, to biting the handler and yesterday at a show rearing in the ring and then this morning when being lead to the field rearing up and boxing at me. 

i had him blood tested a few months back for testosterone levels which came back normal. I'm just looking any advice on handling him and his dominant behaviour thanks in advance


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 May 2015)

everytime you lead him for now: chifney, lunge line,hard hat and gloves.

its all symptoms of the same problem-no respect for YOUR space.

he needs to go back in the school in a sharp pressure halter(with the metal studs) on a lunge line and when he goes to barge past you, give him enough rope to hang himself and then bring him up sharp and hard. if he pushes in to you, use the line to send him back back BACK until he is walking at your shoulder, inside eye and ear locked on to you and stops only a millisecond after you do.

be incredibly accurately and sharp with him and in a short time he will cotton on. the first few times you really want him sat down on his ass in shock if im honest, not a fluffy little jerk on the line!

as far as grabbing the leadrope goes,its irritating as sin but not dangerous per se, but ive taught my 3yo (stallion) LEAVE and back him up sharply a few steps to put him on the submissive back foot.

he is less and less mouthy and if he has a bad day a couple of really firm repetitions has him back on side.

if you sort out the leading and the grabbing the biting shouldn't remain either really as you have his respect, but whilst you are working through it wear thick layers and gloves.

come down like a ton of bricks on him basically, they are too big for this sort of crap.


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## oldie48 (26 May 2015)

How horrible for you and I'm sorry to be blunt but it appears that as he started feeling better and became more settled he started testing his boundaries and found there were none. I've not had cobs, as such, but I think any horse can become bargy and bolshy and if you are not experienced with young horses (I note he was 5 when you got him) you probably need help from an experienced person who can show you how to deal with this behaviour. I'd certainly start by cutting out any hard feed that you might be giving him and have him out 24/7 (muzzled if necessary) and also start giving him some real work to do. I do hope you can nip this in the bud as it's not only dangerous for you and others who handle him but it doesn't do a great deal for his long term future.


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## siennamum (26 May 2015)

I entirely agree with PS. Be the boss, sort him with a vengeance once and you will not spend the next 2 years constantly battling him. 

My dominant gelding has gone a bit feral & I lunged him today, he was horrid to start with so was worked till he really wanted to stop & wanted to understand what I wanted. When he was submissive, we stopped. He was sharply reminded of his manners on the way back to the barn every time he thought he should set the pace.


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## twiggy2 (26 May 2015)

OP get some experienced help in please, a horse that is rearing up and boxing out at you is already out of hand but tackled head on as some of the above suggest could get you very very badly hurt, tackling horses head on is not always the safest or most successful route to take.


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## oldie48 (26 May 2015)

I am rather concerned that if the OP had the experience and skill to do this properly the cob wouldn't be behaving like this now. I think she needs help.



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			everytime you lead him for now: chifney, lunge line,hard hat and gloves.

its all symptoms of the same problem-no respect for YOUR space.

he needs to go back in the school in a sharp pressure halter(with the metal studs) on a lunge line and when he goes to barge past you, give him enough rope to hang himself and then bring him up sharp and hard. if he pushes in to you, use the line to send him back back BACK until he is walking at your shoulder, inside eye and ear locked on to you and stops only a millisecond after you do.

be incredibly accurately and sharp with him and in a short time he will cotton on. the first few times you really want him sat down on his ass in shock if im honest, not a fluffy little jerk on the line!

as far as grabbing the leadrope goes,its irritating as sin but not dangerous per se, but ive taught my 3yo (stallion) LEAVE and back him up sharply a few steps to put him on the submissive back foot.

he is less and less mouthy and if he has a bad day a couple of really firm repetitions has him back on side.

if you sort out the leading and the grabbing the biting shouldn't remain either really as you have his respect, but whilst you are working through it wear thick layers and gloves.

come down like a ton of bricks on him basically, they are too big for this sort of crap.
		
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## Supertrooper (26 May 2015)

Please please DON'T use the pressure halter with the metal studs, it turned the shire x I shared from a horse who would pull away from you when rearing to a horse who reared up whenever any pressure was put on his head. 

Please seek proper qualified behavioural advice for you and your boy, you need someone with you on the ground seeing exactly what is going on, who can then help you fix it. 

The best help we got was an Intelligent Horsemanship instructor, there are lots about and if you go on IH website you will be able to look for one in your area. I wish we'd done it far far sooner, rather than looking for a quick fix solution xx


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (26 May 2015)

Supertrooper said:



			Please please DON'T use the pressure halter with the metal studs, it turned the shire x I shared from a horse who would pull away from you when rearing to a horse who reared up whenever any pressure was put on his head. 

Please seek proper qualified behavioural advice for you and your boy, you need someone with you on the ground seeing exactly what is going on, who can then help you fix it. 

The best help we got was an Intelligent Horsemanship instructor, there are lots about and if you go on IH website you will be able to look for one in your area. I wish we'd done it far far sooner, rather than looking for a quick fix solution xx
		
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Sorry but it obviously wasn't used correctly then....get in make your point and get out.

If it was used in a hanging on pulling and tweaking sort of way then yes it could make them *heady* but the whole point is they barge,get pulled on their butt and then the pressure releases.


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## littlemiss1 (27 May 2015)

thank you for all your advice. i have booked in with a local very recommended trainer to come and help with his behaviour. last night after coming in from the field i lunged him for 30 mins and his behaviour this morning was like a different horse, but i know he still needs more ground work to address his dominant behaviour.


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## elliefiz (27 May 2015)

There is no requirement at all for a studded halter or any such cruelty. The horse has learned behaviour, he is dominant because he is allowed to be. Being cruel or nasty to him isn't going to teach him anything. He needs retraining and I would recommend finding a horsemanship trainer who will quickly show you how to establish personal space and correct handling. Google names like Martin Black, Warwick Schiller and the likes who have very helpful YouTube videos. The only tools you will require is a rope halter and a long lead role so the horse can stay out of your space. if you are resorting to chifneys, studded halters or the likes you are going down a road that causes further problems long term.


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## elliefiz (27 May 2015)

And contrary to popular belief, a horse isn't respecting you if you lead it in any proximity to your self. He is in your space, you are trying to teach a horse to respect you as the leader, horses naturally walk behind each other according to the pecking order so it's conpletely contradictory. Holding the horse under the chin is the most confusing thing you can do for a horse- how many people hold the horse under the chin but jab an elbow in the horse's shoulder or neck to stop it walking on top of them? Yet you are pulling it into you holding it under the chin in the first place. Our horses are taught to walk 6 foot behind us, and they know to stay out of our space. It takes no time at all to teach and the horse knows it's place. That's the big problem, people want their horses to "love" them, they project human emotions and feelings onto an animal that doesn't think or feel like we do and wonder why it all goes wrong. The reality of the situation is that a horse feels less anxious, more safe and is easier to handle when it knows it's place in the pecking order. Teach a horse to lead properly and you will have resolved a lot of issues already.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (27 May 2015)

sorry disagree.

all that's going to happen if the owner takes the horse out in a normal rope halter is that it will decide he's in charge and piss off. again. reinforcing that he can do whatever he wants.

equally on the leading front (and i'm coming at this from my personal view point of leading a young stallion and i've spoken to god knows how many pros about this)..... you don't want anything that might bite or rear behind you! you want it about 2 foot away but in slight shoulder in, inside eye and ear locked on so you have its front legs and mouth in your line of sight and can easily firmly (but not violently or aggressively) push the horses head back to neutral if he takes a nip.

i said nothing about holding him under the chin either.

watch experienced youngstock handlers and stallion handlers running them up/leading them..........they certainly dont have them behind them where they cant see what the blinking hell they are doing!

theres a lot of body language etc that CAN be crossed over the species barrier but telling people to let their bolshy already dangerous horse walk behind them is asking for trouble.


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## SpringArising (27 May 2015)

With regards to leading, I make mine walk either behind or next to me - I would never let anything walk in front of me, even if it wasn't pulling. 

If anything pulls, they can a sharp tug on the rope, a loud "No!" and are told to get back sharpish. I will repeat that for as long as necessary. Can't stand horses who haven't been taught to lead nicely. If I go, they go. If I stop, they stop. Simple.


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## elliefiz (27 May 2015)

I actually said the OP should get professional help from someone experienced with horsemanship. The only tools required in that case is a rope halter and long rope. she needs to start from the beginning and establish a leadership position with the horse. It would be best to do that under guidance from a professional. Pulling a horse over on its bum with a studded halter- sorry but words fail me. There is not one horsemanship trainer out there who would advocate that and for good reason. 

Personally there are very few professionals out there whose opinions on horsemanship I would take on board. Theres a huge difference between being a good rider and a good horse man. There is a reason I attend clinics with the likes of Buck Brannaman, Warwick Schiller because they have methods that work long term to produce safe, calm and well balanced horses. Their method of leading horses makes perfect sense to me, I have a yard full of horses from yearling colts to broodmares to racehorses who lead in this way, it's the basis of good ground work.


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## SpringArising (27 May 2015)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			he needs to go back in the school in a sharp pressure halter(with the metal studs) on a lunge line and when he goes to barge past you, give him enough rope to hang himself and then bring him up sharp and hard.

the first few times you really want him sat down on his ass in shock!

get in make your point and get out.

If it was used in a hanging on pulling and tweaking sort of way then yes it could make them *heady* but the whole point is they barge,get pulled on their butt

come down like a ton of bricks on him basically, they are too big for this sort of crap.
		
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I dread to think what goes on at your yard behind the scenes if this is what you say in public. 

There are ways of being firm without being downright nasty to them.


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## elliefiz (27 May 2015)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f1kl2iIpWqg&client=mv-vf-uk&safesearch=always

OP here is a link to Warwick Schillers YouTube page. I have no affiliation to him except for being a big fan and have attended his clinics, etc. He quite literally has transformed my horses. Theres nothing to be lost from being a bit open minded, watching a video or 2 and maybe picking up some stuff that really make sense to you.


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## dianchi (27 May 2015)

OP-

As I'm sure you will have now spotted there is a few options you have here, 

I think the PS comments have been taken too literal (she doesnt "hang horses") but the tough love approach is definitely what I would take with a horse not respecting space and people around them.

To me the short sharp shock approach is better than the long drawn out one foot at a time systems I have seen used in "horsemanship" intelligent/natural or otherwise.

Good luck and keep safe OP!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (27 May 2015)

SpringArising said:



			I dread to think what goes on at your yard behind the scenes if this is what you say in public. 

There are ways of being firm without being downright nasty to them.
		
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lol.

ill tell you what goes on:

4 horses with great manners that dont give us a moments worry, but that get bought down to earth sharpish if they put people in danger.

and make no mistake barging and rearing can kill people.

if you really think that letting half a ton of horse have a couple of short sharp lessons in watching its feet and weight is cruel you need to open your eyes a bit.

not all horses need something so abrupt, no way would Fig or Bruce ever need it for eg. but the horse the OP describes is an accident waiting to happen that needs its manners re-installing pronto.


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## SpringArising (27 May 2015)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			lol.

ill tell you what goes on:

4 horses with great manners that dont give us a moments worry, but that get bought down to earth sharpish if they put people in danger.

and make no mistake barging and rearing can kill people.

if you really think that letting half a ton of horse have a couple of short sharp lessons in watching its feet and weight is cruel you need to open your eyes a bit.
		
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To put a studded halter on something and then set it up so it falls over is just tacky and lazy. Believe it or not, there are ways of teaching lessons that don't involve straight-up borderline violent methods. 

And for the record, I didn't say giving horses short, sharp lessons is cruel. I said your method is.


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## HufflyPuffly (27 May 2015)

I have to say I'm with PS on this, I was going to reply earlier but thought better of it but now I will.

So my little tale is of a horse who wasn't mine but I had to handle when I breifly worked on a livery yard. The horse had many issues and rig like behaviour was the one which was possibly where his issues stemmed from, his behaviour escalated until his rearing permenantly damaged him and the cycle was complete, the original bad behaviour (of which we never found the cause) led to pain (when he damaged himself) which led to more 'bad' behaviour, he was dangerous end of. 
Now the bit of this story which is relevent is that we were told he is so dominant (rig like behaviour) he will not tolerate being led at the side of you, he would only walk with you in front of him at the end of a lead-rope, you had to be at the end of the lead rope as when he then lunged, reared and boxed out at you it gave you a split second advantage to removed yourself from his front legs...
I did not handle this horse for long, I am not stupid and if you cannot lead a normal horse from the side I would not be amused but a known rearer it is possibly the most stupid thing I've ever witnessed!

Now PS first post was quite harsh sounding, but after seeing the aftermath of a horse so dangerous it broke many bones of its owner and then was pts on account of its behaviour, I would always air on the side of never letting a horse over-step its mark. Now there are levels of action and cosequence and really not knowing the OP and their level of experiance, it would always be wise to get a professional in. With my own horses I've never even needed a rope 'correction' headcollar over just a normal one, but I have fairly well behaved beaties, they are repremanded though with sharp 'oi', a tug of the rope or a slap to the shoulder if they get ahead of me or invade my space. Topaz in particular was made to back up from her door when we first got her as she would barge into you to see what was happening outside. 

There are scales of moderation in everything, the horse in question might need somthing as 'harsh' as what PS prescribed or it might not, but something needs to be done as I've seen the heartbreaking results of 'bargy' behaviour not nipped in the bud early enough.

x


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## Magnetic Sparrow (27 May 2015)

While I can see both sides of the discussion headed by PS and SA, I think the important principle is that the discipline is proportional to the misbehaviour. My horses in general have been on the large side and I have always been careful to ensure that their manners are as good as possible. Boundaries are clear and rigorously enforced. That way hard treatment is rarely needed.

Once a horse has got out of control it is vital to rescue the situation. Sometimes what PS suggests is what is going to be needed to start the process. Either way, I do agree that the OP will benefit from outside assistance.


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## crabbymare (27 May 2015)

I think in this case I would not be advising the poster to use anything studded since (and I am guessing because I do not know them) they did not not have the experience to see where the behaviour was headed so are unlikely to know how to use it properly and the correct time to use it. I do think that the comment about sitting the horse on its backside has been taken out of context by some though and that if the horse has a run in  the field and stops fast it will sit itself on its backside which is to me simply bending its hocks and lowering behind to stop quickly rather than sitting it on the floor. for horses that have got to the point where they go off or stand up and box when led in hand someone experienced is needed to first teach  the horse manners and then show the owner or handler how to lead and handle it to retain them so that it is not allowed to forget them in theh future. if they are corrected with an oi or sharp tug at the first sign of bad manners or trying it on bad behaviour can be nipped in the bud early which leads to a happier horse that knows its position


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (27 May 2015)

thank god, someone with sense!

i did NOT say pull it over, i said sit it down on its ass with anyone with half a brain would take to mean, stop abruptly haunches lowered as per crabbymares explanation. if you think at just over 8 stone i could pull anything off its feet................

for the record i have huge respect and interest in warwick schiller etc BUT...................ive never seen them (from start ie first meeting) deal with anything difficult. we always see them on vid after a few sessions or with a total blank canvas, we never see them deal with a problem.

and i bet, that if a HW cob merrily set sail past WS barging him out the way and biting at him for good measure, that would get sat down on its ass instantly. the vids i have seen only show the horse after a few sessions when the *stop when i stop,go when i go, yield your quarters* is well instilled.................and how does that get instilled on something with its own agenda that doesnt want to listen-a come to jesus, sit down (on your ass) and discuss it, which i would imagine to be a whole lot less neat and tidy than the edited and finished vids.call me a cynic.


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## PaddyMonty (27 May 2015)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			call me a cynic.
		
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You're a cynic. Welcome to the club.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (27 May 2015)

LOL!!!!!!!!!


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## twiggy2 (27 May 2015)

Hope it all works out Op


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## elliefiz (27 May 2015)

I have seen how Warwick deals with horses from day one having brought mine to his clinics. I have already pointed that out. I have seen Buck deal with a friends horse in the same situation. Hence I feel perfectly qualified to comment on what their training methods are and I know for a fact there is no use of studded halters or chifneys. Why use something like that to disguise a problem instead of correcting it? There is a video on YouTube that shows warwick teaching a horse to lead, his method is actually the complete opposite of what you think one should do. Anyway OP will hopefully find a solution to the problem that doesn't involve either herself or the horse getting hurt.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (27 May 2015)

the vid with the dark grey horse? that never gives him a moments bother?

i would be interested to see vids of him dealing with something that tries the same behaviour as OP horse, not of seeing him deal with either horses he has previously worked or horses with no issues.

dont get me wrong an awful lot of what he does makes sense (from what ive seen admittedly only on line) and his horses are all very correct happy and well mannered. but anyone with experience can produce happy easy horses, its how they deal with the ones someone else had messed up, that counts just as much...... as as hard as i search i can find nothing showing a horse trying its level best to evade, and him working through it, only well versed horses that are already part of his very good programme.

ref the chifney i did only say to use it until this is sorted as its unlikely to get sorted like yesterday and presumably horse needs to go out/in etc so OP needs a way of staying safe until this behaviour is eradicated. i wouldnt use one long term either so agree with you there.

equally regarding the studded halter(its the be nice one i use/have used) if you are having to yank them around all day every day you arent doing it right. but for a petite female to put across a firm correction to a big strong horse as a 1/2/3 off(and it shouldnt take more than that if you do it right) for short term use-i dont see that as disguising a thing. its a tool,use it, get the result, go back to neutral.


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## Casey76 (27 May 2015)

My youngster (rising 4) is an extremely solid 16hh - he has 11.5 ins of bone and weighs 600kg.

He is a dope on a rope to handle 99% of the time - because I'm on top of him the minute he puts a foot out of line.  The first time I took him into the new school to start lunging, he threw all his toys out and reared up and boxed at me... and then he thought he was going to die - for 3 seconds I went after him like the world was going to end. Funnily enough he has never boxed at me again.  He also didn't become rope or whip or head shy.

I'm not an advocate for beating horses up, but boxing, biting and kicking are three things which I will not tolerate AT ALL.


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## HayleyUK (28 May 2015)

Echo the comments about the discipline needing to be proportional; if you've tried the nicer methods and aren't getting anywhere then I absolutely echo PS.

My little mare can be a pig; she can be bargy/pull when being led and will happily drag someone to her stable if she thinks she can. She's responded really well to a leadrope over the nose and a firm tug (pressure then released) and a no. She 'gets' it to the point i now don't have to give the tug if she starts.

They're too big, too quick and too dangerous to be allowed to get away with ******** behaviour.


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## elliefiz (28 May 2015)

HayleyUK said:



			Echo the comments about the discipline needing to be proportional; if you've tried the nicer methods and aren't getting anywhere then I absolutely echo PS.

My little mare can be a pig; she can be bargy/pull when being led and will happily drag someone to her stable if she thinks she can. She's responded really well to a leadrope over the nose and a firm tug (pressure then released) and a no. She 'gets' it to the point i now don't have to give the tug if she starts.

They're too big, too quick and too dangerous to be allowed to get away with ******** behaviour.
		
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Completely backs up my point of disguising an issue not actually addressing it. I personally have little patience to be dealing with horses that need "as long as" to describe their behaviours. Horse is good to lead as long as there's a rope over it's nose. Horse is fine to lead as long as it wears a chifney, etc etc. So at my yard we teach good ground manners from day one which includes leading and it makes for well mannered and easy to handle horses who don't need any allowances made for them. 

 Also your concept of pressure and release is incorrect, there is no release from pressure with a rope around the nose and someone hanging onto the other end of it.


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## Magnetic Sparrow (28 May 2015)

The thing is, in my experience a horse which has learned bad manners will revert to them unless the new discipline is consistent. So I would tend to say that my horse has excellent manners 'as long as' she is expected to behave well and disciplined if she does not. Instilling good manners in a horse is not a quick process.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (28 May 2015)

Send him to a proper trainer, not one who uses metal studded halters [a new one on me] and go there every day for a lesson. He is not a pet he is a horse, get him working for you and think about "bonding" by kisses on his nose in about ten years!


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## Casey76 (28 May 2015)

The "be-nice" halter has metal studs in the head piece:

http://www.equinehealthuk.com/be-nice-halter-185.phtml

This halter releases much more quickly than a Dually, and there is less risk of breaking the nasal bone.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (28 May 2015)

Regardless of the gadgets, it is the handler who needs to be trained in order to correct the behaviour of the horse, if it is big and strong and dangerous then it is better to send it to be educated or get a handler in every day until such time as both horse and handler are back to normal.
I had to handle my pony in a bridle for quite a while as he kept forgetting his training and was unpredictable when coming it was a matter of safety, he did not attack me in any way, and was not dangerous, just really reactive and also clumsy.
I have only ever used a chiffney once or twice, and as it also needs training, it is really not for the amateur.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (28 May 2015)

the trouble is, once the horse has learned they can just piss off and disappear (or in this case take a chunk out handler then piss off and disappear) there is no way anyone handling them in a poxy normal soft head collar is going to instil anything in them other than reinforcing they can do it!

max has his rope halter, i prefer the be nice. most NH trainers or people that train groundwork use something similar/a variation of.

its not rocket science or brain surgery and i think you(generic) do the OP a great injustice by suggesting that a halter and a dose of common sense cant get this sorted without having to send the horse away for schooling or to get someone in who will charge £50 for 2 mins work the OP can easily do.

its not really about making allowances either its about being 1 step ahead and being safe. Leading a horse that has been known in the past to leg it, without having the right gear in place, is just stupid. You might never need it again, but have it there. Far better that the horse learns some spacial awareness and then plods to the field every day for the rest of its life in a rope halter/be nice etc that is never needed, than is a good boy for a few weeks then does it again and seriously injures his handler.

why do you think stallion handlers bring them out to cover in a bridle, or why pro rehab yards hand walk in a bridle or chifney? better to be safe than sorry and dont tell me all these people have no idea how to teach a horse to lead!

of course teaching them correctly from the start is the way, but sometimes you (generic) end up working with something that HAS got away with it.

out of interest elliefiz, say you have a generally well behaved youngster, say a 2 or 3yo (so much bigger than a foal) that starts getting wound up in hand, say it sees horses hooning in the field, or a fire engine goes past, or its a colt thats seen a mare. what do you do in that space of 5 seconds that you have to react and keep yourself safe? and then say one does get away from you and you take it in the school and it tries to get away again-talk me through step by step how you correct that in both situations without at any point taking a sharp pull and giving the horse a bit of shock.


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## Fellewell (28 May 2015)

elliefiz said:



			I actually said the OP should get professional help from someone experienced with horsemanship. The only tools required in that case is a rope halter and long rope. she needs to start from the beginning and establish a leadership position with the horse. It would be best to do that under guidance from a professional. Pulling a horse over on its bum with a studded halter- sorry but words fail me. There is not one horsemanship trainer out there who would advocate that and for good reason. 

Personally there are very few professionals out there whose opinions on horsemanship I would take on board. Theres a huge difference between being a good rider and a good horse man. There is a reason I attend clinics with the likes of Buck Brannaman, Warwick Schiller because they have methods that work long term to produce safe, calm and well balanced horses. Their method of leading horses makes perfect sense to me, I have a yard full of horses from yearling colts to broodmares to racehorses who lead in this way, it's the basis of good ground work.
		
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There must be a few near-misses leading that way? I've just watched a video with one of these guys leading a problem horse and he doesn't let the horse out of his sight.

Horses can follow other horses, they have nearly 360 degree vision so if one runs up another he gets double-barrelled. Humans don't have that field of vision. Horses also have a blind spot directly behind/in front, if they spook you're going to get squished.

I'll always lead a horse at the shoulder, that way you're in the 'driving' position.

I like these NH people but we can't forget that they have years of experience, volume of horses, lack of emotional attachment and very nice hats.


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## oldie48 (28 May 2015)

Watching my two horses out in the field the more dominant one is never in the lead, he is always behind directing his mate and using him to keep the flies off his face. Just an observation!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (28 May 2015)

Fellewell said:



			There must be a few near-misses leading that way? I've just watched a video with one of these guys leading a problem horse and he doesn't let the horse out of his sight.

Horses can follow other horses, they have nearly 360 degree vision so if one runs up another he gets double-barrelled. Humans don't have that field of vision. Horses also have a blind spot directly behind/in front, if they spook you're going to get squished.

I'll always lead a horse at the shoulder, that way you're in the 'driving' position.

I like these NH people but we can't forget that they have years of experience, volume of horses, lack of emotional attachment and very nice hats.
		
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oldie48 said:



			Watching my two horses out in the field the more dominant one is never in the lead, he is always behind directing his mate and using him to keep the flies off his face. Just an observation!
		
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good points ref 360 vision and dominant horse behind in natural environment


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## nato (28 May 2015)

oldie48 said:



			Watching my two horses out in the field the more dominant one is never in the lead, he is always behind directing his mate and using him to keep the flies off his face. Just an observation!
		
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This is interesting! Although personally I wouldn't be comfortable standing behind a dominant horse


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## fburton (28 May 2015)

nato said:



			This is interesting! Although personally I wouldn't be comfortable standing behind a dominant horse 

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I have comfortably stood behind several clearly dominant horses. The crucial thing is that their dominance did not translate to aggressiveness towards people.

Conversely, however, I wouldn't be comfortable standing behind a horse known to be aggressive towards people - whatever the underlying reason!


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## Fellewell (28 May 2015)

And for all those about to take their BHS Stage One; the only time you are allowed to stand behind a horse is when putting on a tail bandage.

I think it pays to be able to see both ends of a horse most of the time when handling on the ground. Of course you should be able to 'feel' both ends when in the saddle. Unless you constantly ride in an arena with mirrors which is probably just vanity ;-)


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## oldie48 (28 May 2015)

I wouldn't lead a horse from behind, nor would I want to be in front, I like to be at the shoulder, which is where I feel I have the greatest control should anything upset the horse. 



nato said:



			This is interesting! Although personally I wouldn't be comfortable standing behind a dominant horse 

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## Exploding Chestnuts (28 May 2015)

oldie48 said:



			I wouldn't lead a horse from behind, nor would I want to be in front, I like to be at the shoulder, which is where I feel I have the greatest control should anything upset the horse.
		
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That is correct, they are under your control, and if they spook and rush forward you can turn them, if behind and eg a dog attacks them , they will knock you over, but it is fine for well trained and quiet horses to walk behind eg if bringing a group in, they all need to maintain the position you ask of them. [ bringing in three down a narrow track they all have to be under control], I may use a lunge rein on the last horse which will generally be the most passive, then I have time to take some action. But they don't know how to behave until they are trained, and some horses are more reactive than others, so one has to consider these things.


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## HayleyUK (29 May 2015)

elliefiz said:



			Completely backs up my point of disguising an issue not actually addressing it. I personally have little patience to be dealing with horses that need "as long as" to describe their behaviours. Horse is good to lead as long as there's a rope over it's nose. Horse is fine to lead as long as it wears a chifney, etc etc. So at my yard we teach good ground manners from day one which includes leading and it makes for well mannered and easy to handle horses who don't need any allowances made for them. 

 Also your concept of pressure and release is incorrect, there is no release from pressure with a rope around the nose and someone hanging onto the other end of it.
		
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Interesting view; I don't disguise anything. The behaviour is corrected in the way that suits the both of us.

I lead in and out on a daily basis without the need for a rope over the nose; however, if there is a flappy bit of plastic in a skip upsetting her, or she's a bit fresh and forgetting her manners I can and will use a quick rope over the nose to bring her back into submission.

Where did I say I hung off the rope? It's a sharp 'tug' and then release - so the pressure is on and then off. No one hangs off her head as that teaches her nothing.

Id much rather a 500kg horse can be quickly brought back down to earth when she's fresh or being a bit spooky in the wind than battle along with her like a kite on the end of a lead rein putting myself and others in danger because someone on a forum decides Im hiding, covering up or hanging off her head.

That said, there are many roads to the same end goal... I'm happy with my methods and my horses are too.


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## Dry Rot (29 May 2015)

Some interesting posts here and I think I agree with PS. I think I do.... Maybe....

First of all, leading. I really would not be happy with a horse leading behind my line of vision. A friend came over and we walked around the ponies. I had a small Shetland pony in for grazing. The Shetland followed us around like a dog. Suddenly, the little sod tried to mount my friend from behind! The pony turned out to be a stallion, obviously with serious sexual deviations! No, I think I want them where I can see them, even if only a Shetland!

As for dealing with a rearing/misbehaving horse, I agree the jerk on the lead rope with a rope head collar or perhaps a Be Nice head collar (although we don't actually have one!) might work -- but with some specifics. 

There is a concept I call 'one lesson learning'. A horse touching an electric fence for the first time can exhibit 'one lesson learning'. The shock is unpleasant but harmless, but it will be a while before the horse touches an electric tape again. It might even refuse to cross a white line in the centre of the road because, in it's mind, it presents a similar danger.

All behaviour is initiated by some trigger or stimulus. The behaviour CAN be inhibited by a brief shock, such as electricity in the above example, or a quick jerk on the lead rope, at a critical moment. It could alternatively have the opposite efect if delivered at the wrong moment! Predators will experiment and avoid prey that defends itself or doesn't taste nice. And so on. What is critical is the TIMING of that brief shock. The small child reaching for a fancy cake wil be inhibited by the parent administering a quick and unexpected slap on the wrist. It doesn't cause any long lasting trauma, but it works! And in one lesson, too (until it needs to be repeated). But unrewarded behaviour tends to be abandoned.

So, that is how I interpreted PS's post. I took her to mean that she would bring the horse down a peg or two in the social hierarchy, not physically put it back on it's heels, though I now see that she meant both which is fine with me.

This may shock you, but I had here one of those nervous yearlings that would react violently if I put my hand up to it's head at a certain angle. It would consistently snatch away in a very (for me) frustrating way. This behaviour is self rewarding. The further away from the source of annoyance (my hand), the more relieved the yearling would feel, so it got a reward. I dedided to try countering this with a swift but well timed jerk on the lead rope. (I've used this many times in dog training). The effect was miraculous. A previously nervous yearling would now allow me to handle him around the head and a problem that had persisted for weeks was cured in a split second. I'm not suggesting that this is the solution to all nervous horses, that would be silly, or ones that rear, but it demonstrates the principle and how it works. I'd guess that rearing is an escape behaviour. If it results in something different to escape, it MIGHT be abandoned. The rest depends on the skill of the operator.


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## fburton (29 May 2015)

Dry Rot said:



			So, that is how I interpreted PS's post. I took her to mean that she would bring the horse down a peg or two in the social hierarchy, not physically put it back on it's heels, though I now see that she meant both which is fine with me.
		
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Fine with me too, although I would ascribe the success of the manoeuvre entirely to the lesson learned from a well-timed punishment and not at all to the social hierarchy bit, which I think is something some people imagine explains why such interventions work (and which quite a lot of NH teaches, regrettably). I don't believe we humans are naturally part of horses' social hierarchy any more than they consider us to be other horses. We can make horses think this to some extent (or at least start to behave _as if_ we were part of their social hierarchy) by attempting to emulate a dominant horse, e.g. by driving horses off hay piles, but in my opinion this is a dangerous and entirely unnecessary game to play. We can also be pushy in ways that resemble a dominant horse, and horses will learn to cope with this aberrant behaviour on our part by responding in 'submissive' ways that are pleasingly 'polite' and 'respectful' to us because they just want a quiet life - at least those that don't get p*ss*d off with the aggressiveness and fight back! But that's not the only way (or, in my view, the best way) to produce polite, respectful behaviour.


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## Dry Rot (29 May 2015)

fburton said:



			Fine with me too, although I would ascribe the success of the manoeuvre entirely to the lesson learned from a well-timed punishment and not at all to the social hierarchy bit, which I think is something some people imagine explains why such interventions work (and which quite a lot of NH teaches, regrettably). I don't believe we humans are naturally part of horses' social hierarchy any more than they consider us to be other horses. We can make horses think this to some extent (or at least start to behave _as if_ we were part of their social hierarchy) by attempting to emulate a dominant horse, e.g. by driving horses off hay piles, but in my opinion this is a dangerous and entirely unnecessary game to play. We can also be pushy in ways that resemble a dominant horse, and horses will learn to cope with this aberrant behaviour on our part by responding in 'submissive' ways that are pleasingly 'polite' and 'respectful' to us because they just want a quiet life - at least those that don't get p*ss*d off with the aggressiveness and fight back! But that's not the only way (or, in my view, the best way) to produce polite, respectful behaviour.
		
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Well, the Shetland stallion certainly thought my friend was somewhere on his social hierarchy! Preferably as a partner and mother of his childen!

But I agree with you. Even if they do think of us as fellow horses, it is a dangerous assumption to make. Like thinking that horses are "naughty" or do things out of spite. I'd shout anthropomorphism, if I could spell it.


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## fburton (29 May 2015)

Dry Rot said:



			Well, the Shetland stallion certainly thought my friend was somewhere on his social hierarchy! Preferably as a partner and mother of his childen!

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Stallions are not particular discriminating when it comes to sex and will potentially mount anything mountable and reasonably cooperative - like the dummy mares used for semen collection. I'm not sure 'social' necessarily comes into it! :eek3:




			But I agree with you. Even if they do think of us as fellow horses, it is a dangerous assumption to make. Like thinking that horses are "naughty" or do things out of spite. I'd shout anthropomorphism, if I could spell it.
		
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You just did.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (29 May 2015)

fburton said:



			Stallions are not particular discriminating when it comes to sex and will potentially mount anything mountable and reasonably cooperative - like the dummy mares used for semen collection. I'm not sure 'social' necessarily comes into it! :eek3:


You just did. 

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slightly irrelevant to this convo but be thankful it was only a shettie..............friend of my dads sadly died and his wife was left with a shire stallion and several mares, whilst sorting the fence the stallion tried to mount her!!!!!!!!!! somehow escaped with only cuts and bruises,lucky lady.

Goofy only really gets interested in one particular small hairy gelding that comes for lessons lol, mares he is not interested in (yet!)


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## Barnacle (29 May 2015)

Thank goodness the OP sought someone knowledgeable.


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## TPO (30 May 2015)

Off topic but I wouldn't be putting Warwick in the same category as Buck! 

Having attended a WS clinic and watched him set about a 4yr old kneeing and kicking him in the stomach then justify his actions to his cult followers by comparing himself to an electric fence that tbe horse "chose" to run into was both unbelievable and pathetically lapped up.

How he can name drop Buck and Ray Hunt, that you have to give them the answer before asking the question then start on a 4yr old after the handler said she hadn't done much groundwork with him is beyond belief.

I'm not a "fluffy bunny", I've had exposure to what WS talks about (starting feral colts on Australian cattle stations) and am a firm believer in having well mannered horses. You can't be a good horse(wo)man with an ego. It's not all "unbreakable bonds" but neither is it goading horses and kicking them in the stomach repeatedly. 

Should I have ever found myself in that situation is send a horse to PS over WS any day. A given really...

So yes while I agree with everything PS has posted I also agree with the poster who said that if the handler had the experience to do this the situation wouldn't have arisen/no need to ask.

In my limited experience of this situation I've found it happens regularly when people have taken on a "poor" horse. It's easy to allow a poor horse certain liberties as you feel sorry for them in their poor condition but as it, and strength, return the horse ends up a bit spoiled. It's similar to the orphan foal situation.

OP is getting in help and I'd sumise that's the best course of action. You may find the Richard Maxwell books helpful also. They are easy to read with lots of good photographs to illustrate his points. I have Training the Young Horse, Maximise Your Horsemanship and Unlock Your Horses Talent- no association with Max but have enjoyed his demos and found his books useful reminders


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