# To hard to accecpt ????



## gwniver (7 April 2014)

**** Warning *** Rant ***

	I do not make my horse do anything he doesnt want to . Is that so hard to accept ????? I have differant ways of doing things , but i dont get in other peoples face about it !! I keep myself to myself and ,did, expect others to pay me the same respect . But apparently no , i get harassed at the yard harassed in the field AND harassed by email !!!! &#39;&#39; I am doing things wrong &#39;&#39; &#39;&#39; I will see the light soon &#39;&#39; and numbers of BHS instructors !!&#39;&#39; My horses NEED to be ridden &#39;&#39; 

	My horses and I are very happy ,yes we do things differantly  But that i our right !!!!!!!


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## quirky (7 April 2014)

So if he doesn't want to walk through a puddle, do you turn round and go back on yourself?


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## Auslander (7 April 2014)

As long as you don't plan to sell him on, that's your prerogative. Personally, I don't accept a horse telling me to get lost when I ask it to do something perfectly reasonable, in the the same way I don't let my teenage son get away with not doing as he's told.

There are safety implications associated with a horse that does what it wants with no guidance from the handler, but i'm sure you already know that, and don't do anything where his actions may lead to you putting others at risk.


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## rowan666 (7 April 2014)

You sound like me! Non of my horses have ever been made to do anything, if they arnt in the mood to be ridden i dont ride (not that ride often anyway), so i accept they have there reasons and they are very well behaved and actually WANT to please me rather than just doing as they are told for fear of reprise. I do accept this dosnt work for alot of people/horses but luckily ive raised a good bunch of nags and it works for us!

Ignore the nosey buggars and carry on as you are! Could you not rent a private yard/field? Its the only way to avoid the b*tching


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## Amymay (7 April 2014)

gwniver said:



			My horses NEED to be ridden
		
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I would tend to agree. Especially your youngster (the one prone to bucking).

Could these people simply be genuinly concerned for your safety around horses that you may be scared of?


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## SatansLittleHelper (7 April 2014)

Auslander said:



			As long as you don't plan to sell him on, that's your prerogative. Personally, I don't accept a horse telling me to get lost when I ask it to do something perfectly reasonable, in the the same way I don't let my teenage son get away with not doing as he's told.

There are safety implications associated with a horse that does what it wants with no guidance from the handler, but i'm sure you already know that, and don't do anything where his actions may lead to you putting others at risk.
		
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This precisely. Presumably you have a good 3rd party insurance cover??
I'm all for allowing horses a "personality" etc but basic manners/co-operation are non negotiable in my book. I personally also don't believe it is in the best long term interests of the animal concerned.
But it is your perogative


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## Tobiano (7 April 2014)

It is a dilemma!  My boy looked as though he didnt want to go for a hack yesterday morning (just in from the field and shaping up for a snooze) and he went to the back of the stable when I approached with the headcollar.  My compromise was to make it nicer for him by starting with some carrot stretches, but we still had our hack in the end.  I don't like to just 'use' them but all the same I have to go to work when I don't feel like it and sometimes so do they! Same with things they don't want to do straight away.  I ask politely and think of ways to make it more acceptable for them but on the whole they will have to do it.  

But if you have another philosophy that is your prerogative.  Far better IMHO than beating them into submission come what may.


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## gwniver (7 April 2014)

As far as the puddle goes , i would try and show him it is ok but if he really didnt want to then i wouldnt make him . It isnt life or death that he walk though a puddle 

	The youngster , who WAS prone to bucking hasnt since i have taken on this approach . We now have great fun riding tackless ( in a safe place )

	I am always very careful about others safty and i know what i am doing works .

	sorry for spelling mistakes... b****dy keyboard keeps sticking


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## gwniver (7 April 2014)

rowan666 said:



			You sound like me! Non of my horses have ever been made to do anything, if they arnt in the mood to be ridden i dont ride (not that ride often anyway), so i accept they have there reasons and they are very well behaved and actually WANT to please me rather than just doing as they are told for fear of reprise. I do accept this dosnt work for alot of people/horses but luckily ive raised a good bunch of nags and it works for us! Ignore the nosey buggars and carry on as you are! Could you not rent a private yard/field? Its the only way to avoid the b*tching
		
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	I have tried but people seem to follow =O


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## windand rain (7 April 2014)

As long as every horse gets to the point of being compliant, polite, well educated and easy to handle then how you get there is up to you but as we dont know what is round the next corner for us it is our responsibility to make sure that every horse that passes through our hands is a well rounded and adaptable individual who is a pleasure for anyone to own
  	Why because if ever we cannot keep them their only future is with someone else or death to make them acceptable to others they must be easy to deal with and happy to be handled, otherwise they will/can slipe down a very slippery slope to neglect and cruelty


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## Sugar_and_Spice (7 April 2014)

Hmm if you mean for example your horse dislikes lungeing so you don't do it, then I don't see a problem. But if you mean you don't make your horses do *anything ever* if they don't want to do it, then I can see why its a problem. Eg if I go to a field to remove a horse I'm not too impressed by having to deal with a bad mannered horse that won't back away from the gate when asked because it doesn't want to.


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## Amymay (7 April 2014)

gwniver said:



			As far as the puddle goes , i would try and show him it is ok but if he really didnt want to then i wouldnt make him . It isnt life or death that he walk though a puddle 

	The youngster , who WAS prone to bucking hasnt since i have taken on this approach . We now have great fun riding tackless ( in a safe place )

	I am always very careful about others safty and i know what i am doing works .

	sorry for spelling mistakes... b****dy keyboard keeps sticking
		
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I sort of admire your attitude, OP, but I can't condone it.

Horses handled in such a way rarely have manners, and are often a liability.

Sorry.


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## blitznbobs (7 April 2014)

I do the same with my kids - if they don't want to go to school I don't make them ... If they don't want to wait for cars when crossing the road I think well if they get squashed that's fate... At least they died happy... No harm done


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## Auslander (7 April 2014)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			I'm not too impressed by having to deal with a bad mannered horse that won't back away from the gate when asked because it doesn't want to.
		
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Ditto. I find that after a few flicks with a lead rope, they suddenly want to move away when they're told to. 
Before anyone cries "Bully", I had an incident last week when my lot were all barging around at the gateway when I was trying to turn one out. Ended up with three of them sodding off down the driveway towards the open road. They stopped to graze luckily, but I have ever since been very diligent about showing them why it's a good thing to move back when I tell them to, when they really really don't want to. I was very lucky that none of them got out, and got squished.


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## gwniver (7 April 2014)

Amymay

	He actully has more manners than ever before !! my mum , who is completely unhorsey (used to be scared of them ), can turn him out  and generally do stuff with him .

	He is a very happy horse and can be handled by children to .
	we are not affecting anyone else so cant we be left alone ???


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## gwniver (7 April 2014)

He also has never refused moving back ... he does it better than other horse i have worked with .... i use treats


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## Sugar_and_Spice (7 April 2014)

gwniver said:



			He also has never refused moving back ... he does it better than other horse i have worked with .... i use treats
		
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Moving back was an example, one of many I could have used to illustrate the problems caused to others by bad mannered horses. Plus, if I went to remove a horse from the field I would not be feeding your one treats to persuade it to, or reward it for, moving back. If your horses have manners that is great, but if they are only good for you and a nightmare for everyone else that is not so great. If everyone on your yard is getting on at you, I suspect its because your horses behaviour is causing problems for the other liveries.


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## MerrySherryRider (7 April 2014)

There are many ways to train a horse and as long as they are willing, obliging and sane, then, you're doing something right, OP. 
My mare was traditionally trained before I bought her. She is a complete joy to ride. as soon as the tack goes on, she is in work mode and she is brave and focussed. She will do anything she is asked and that means stress free and enjoyable riding. 

There's no harm in insisting that a horse does as asked as long as it's a reasonable request. They understand fairness but like every living creature, there are some days when they aren't on form and if it's just an ordinary day, I'd take that into account and do something that we'll both get a positive result from. 
 That said, work is a fact of life and the discipline of work is important for humans and horses alike.


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## Amymay (7 April 2014)

Well fair enough OP. Tell those hassling you to b5gger off then.


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## Follysmum (7 April 2014)

As long as its not a danger to anyone tell them to jog on.


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## AmieeT (7 April 2014)

TBH so long as  they're happy and healthy like you've said, it's nobody else's business.

Mine gets told to walk on whether he likes it or not- but that doesn't mean that I expect everybody to act the same. 

Just ignore them and keep doing what you're doing- your horses are happy, you're happy- WIN/WIN!



Ax


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## slumdog (7 April 2014)

I like mine to do as their told but tbh I couldn't care less what anyone else does, it doesn't make any difference to me and it's none of my business (cruelty aside-obviously)


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## Hoof_Prints (7 April 2014)

Your horse, your methods. As long as you stay safe then it's nobody's business unless you ask for help/advice. I have to point out though, with horses you are constantly learning and it is not good to have a stubborn and blind attitude (not saying you do, but it could end up this way). Listen to others and learn from their experience, even if you don't agree its good to have a wide variety of knowledge and ideas ! I don't force my horses to do things, I get them to agree with me and I know damn well I have no chance of making them do something if they really don't want. It can take a bit of a firm message though at times to get them to comply, the line can be blurred sometimes between being strict and being nasty. As long as the horse isn't harmed or scared by your actions, it think it is fine. When a horse refuses to do something it can be napping, so i'd make sure you avoid teaching your horse how to be evasive !


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## el_Snowflakes (7 April 2014)

I'm on a big-ish yard. I couldn't care less what others do with their horses (unless they are being abused of course) as long as it doesn't affect me. If ignoring them doesn't work- A stern 'excuse me, I never asked for your advice/opinion' should do it.


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## maccachic (8 April 2014)

Hmm sometimes taking other people advice can be helpful, we all get caught in a situation and its not till someone points something out that you have light bulb moment.  I would get annoyed with constant busy bodies, however if you shut people down too much you may do yourself a disservice ie I always tell people if their girth is loose because I would def. want someone to tell me if I made that mistake.

Have you actually considered what these people are saying (and decided its not helpful) or have you shut the door (closed you mind) because its not what you want to hear?

Agree re picking your fights with a horse but being a door mat wont get you very far either.


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## NZJenny (8 April 2014)

So if you just want to be left alone to do your thing, why on earth are you ranting on a very public forum?


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## EstherYoung (8 April 2014)

I don't know the background to any of this, so it's a bit confusing. Who is harassing you? Other liveries or internet randomers?

You can't 'make' one of ours do anything. In his head, he is equestrian royalty and he will not be bossed around by his minions. But you can set up situations and change the way you ask, so the right answer is easy and the wrong answer is harder, and then he thinks he is doing what he wants. Whereas my youngster is completely different - he has such a workmanlike attitude he just needs a list of clear instructions and he'll get on with it. He gets worried if there are no clear instructions as he sees that as weak leadership and then wants to take charge himself.

I guess what I'm saying is that all horses are different and you need to adjust your approach accordingly. No one ever knows everything.


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## gwniver (8 April 2014)

I dont pick any fight with anyone  , re how other horses are trained . I always treat others how i would like to be treated . =)

	My horses arnt bothering anyone else , They are in their own field and if someone made a pesific complaint ( ie bardging at the gate ) I would do my best to solve the problem . But all i hear at the yard is how wrong i am doing things and how i should &#39;&#39;fix&#39;&#39; things . I have told them politely that i understand that they are concerned for me and my horse , but we are fine really . But they just shake their head and tell me i dont understand and then continue !!!

	Oh and i am ranting on this forum because if i did it at the yard it wouldnt be very good for my public realaions =D


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## Wagtail (8 April 2014)

Take no notice. Your horses, it's up to you what you do with them. Many years ago when I first got my mare, she would not go first out hacking and would not hack alone. People told me to 'give her a thrashing'. Lots of people! I tried all sorts, turning her in circles, booting her hard, using the whip. Nothing worked. Also, using force went against my instincts. So I decided to stop listening to all the people telling me what to do and follow my heart. If she stopped and refused to go forwards, or ran backwards, I got off! Shock horror! Tutts. But by doing this and giving her reassurance from the ground, we got over the problem and she turned out to be my horse of a lifetime. She would go anywhere, do anything I asked of her. No obstacle was to big or too scary, she would tackle absolutely anything.


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## Lunchbox legend (8 April 2014)

blitznbobs said:



			I do the same with my kids - if they don't want to go to school I don't make them ... If they don't want to wait for cars when crossing the road I think well if they get squashed that's fate... At least they died happy... No harm done
		
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   ...was just thinking the same thing about how I handle my dog


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## buddylove (8 April 2014)

Whilst they are your horses etc etc, I train mine with the thought in the back of my mind that I may not be able to keep them forever. Therefore, they should do as they are told to give them the very best chance of staying in a loving home and not being passed around because they are ill mannered. Touch wood I haven't had to test my theory yet.


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## unicornystar (8 April 2014)

If your going to keep your horses for life then fine, but personally having had one that was a serious (dangerous Napper) who got away with it previously, if you have any intention of selling them on oneday (which I doubt from what I can tell on here) then do the work with them and ensure they do as you request.

I now have a 7 year old who has a few issues napping but we are working on them, I dont have to tell him, I ask him, it works just as well but there may be a time you want to go through a puddle (for example) to get somewhere as there is no other way home due to a fallen tree etc.

The fact that more than one person seems concerned would make me feel maybe they have your interests at heart.  It is very tricky line between being concerned and being a busybody!!

Smaller yard perhaps is the answer?  After 35 years around horses I never close my ears or eyes to other peoples suggestions, its a continous learning curve and take the bits that help and ignore the bits that dont!!


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## Ibblebibble (8 April 2014)

having taken on a horse that had been allowed to pretty much decide what he wanted to do and when i actually think it's unfair on the horse. Yes mine came across as a happy relaxed chap at first, as long as i expected nothing of him! as soon as he was asked to do anything it was stressful for him. 
as long as you can be 100% that you will never have to sell or pass your horses on then yes, do as you wish with them, but if they will have to face the real world at any point without you then do them the favour of preparing them for it.


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## gwniver (8 April 2014)

Just because I don't make my horse do anything doesn't mean we do nothing ! ;-)

It just makes him feel more secure in trying/allowing me to do new things . Imagine you were asked to do something that you were generally scared of . Would you be more confident knowing that at any point you can say '' stop , I am scared lets go back '' ?  

As far as napping , he doesn't nap at all . =)


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## Hackie (8 April 2014)

Do whatever you want with your own horse, you'll get no issues from me.

However, its never done any harm to mine to teach them that they do what they are told, so I don't understand why you wouldn't, for safety and just general usefulness.  

The 'confidence' argument doesn't make much sense to me, to be honest, I've always found that my horses get their confidence from me, and the way I handle them.  If I calmly and confidently ask them to do something they are unsure of, then they are more likely to follow my lead.  If I was to give up and let them get out of it, I just don't really believe that they'd simply change their minds and go 'oh, okay then!'...

Each to their own, but it doesn't seem particularly logical.


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## ester (8 April 2014)

puddle.... well puddle in front and cars coming past I know how I would want my horse to respond  (even more so given the copious amounts of water knocking around the south west this winter!)


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## RunToEarth (8 April 2014)

Your horse - do what you like with it. 

The only time I ever get irritated with people who let their horses do what they want is when it affects me - like the neurotic woman I passed on exercise last month whose horse wanted to follow my horse... I mean, how dare I not want to turn my horse around to accompany her back the way I had just come, because she wouldn't make her horse walk on?


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## gwniver (8 April 2014)

Hackie said:



			Do whatever you want with your own horse, you'll get no issues from me.

However, its never done any harm to mine to teach them that they do what they are told, so I don't understand why you wouldn't, for safety and just general usefulness.  

The 'confidence' argument doesn't make much sense to me, to be honest, I've always found that my horses get their confidence from me, and the way I handle them.  If I calmly and confidently ask them to do something they are unsure of, then they are more likely to follow my lead.  If I was to give up and let them get out of it, I just don't really believe that they'd simply change their minds and go 'oh, okay then!'...

Each to their own, but it doesn't seem particularly logical.
		
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It is not a change that happens over night . You have to gain their trust , and show them that you actually listen to them instead of ignoring them when they try to say things . You need to build them up -empower them - and gain their trust as someone that good things happen around , a place where bad things never happen ( or happen very occasionally with lots of treats) 

It may not seem logical as you are very far down your path , but it seems very logical to me =)


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## Ibblebibble (8 April 2014)

gwniver said:



			It is not a change that happens over night . You have to gain their trust , and show them that you actually listen to them instead of ignoring them when they try to say things . You need to build them up -empower them - and gain their trust as someone that good things happen around , a place where bad things never happen ( or happen very occasionally with lots of treats) 

It may not seem logical as you are very far down your path , but it seems very logical to me =)
		
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but i have a very good relationship with my horses even though i expect them to to do as i ask, i listen to them and can gauge if they are genuinely scared or just being awkward . i don't need to bribe them with treats either, I try to make sure i am always the calm confident leader so that they look to me in scary situations. Being the leader means that i am the decision maker and they seem to be ok with that.


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## gwniver (8 April 2014)

Ibblebibble said:



			but i have a very good relationship with my horses even though i expect them to to do as i ask, i listen to them and can gauge if they are genuinely scared or just being awkward . i don't need to bribe them with treats either, I try to make sure i am always the calm confident leader so that they look to me in scary situations. Being the leader means that i am the decision maker and they seem to be ok with that.
		
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I am so sorry if you took what I said was meant badly at you !! I am sure your horses are very happy with you and you have a lovely bond with them . =) My horse had been forced when he was genuinely scared in the past so he found any forcing really stressful . It is just the path that is best for us and I am sure that what you are doing is the best for your horses! 
But I have to add that I NEVER bribe with treats . The treat stays in my pocket until the action is done .


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## SkewbyTwo (8 April 2014)

gwniver said:



			It is not a change that happens over night . You have to gain their trust , and show them that you actually listen to them instead of ignoring them when they try to say things . You need to build them up -empower them - and gain their trust as someone that good things happen around , a place where bad things never happen ( or happen very occasionally with lots of treats) 

It may not seem logical as you are very far down your path , but it seems very logical to me =)
		
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How long have you had your horse?

From what I have witnessed it is exactly the horses treated as you advise who end up passed on to bin end dealers for meat money.


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## windand rain (8 April 2014)

As I said before personally I think every horse should be treated kindly but within the realms of making it a well rounded and adaptable indiviual able to conform if it has to go away from your scheme
My horses could be handled by anyone will come to call and are bombproof hacks alone or in company but they do have to do as they are asked and in some cases told. I rarely treat them and they dont go looking in my pockets for treats. I usually do have something there but they are very polite can't abide having a pocket ripped off by a mugging horse.
I am sure you are doing what you think is right I am not certain it is even ok as like children without boundaries grow up to be delinquents so do horses which is not conducive to a good future


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## gwniver (9 April 2014)

boundaries are different to not making them do anything , Personal space for instance . I will swing my arms around me  ( slowly ! , not like parelli ) until they get out of MY space . But if they ask me to move out of theirs I pay them the same respect . I just don't force THEM to do anything .


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## OwnedbyJoe (9 April 2014)

gwniver said:



			boundaries are different to not making them do anything , Personal space for instance . I will swing my arms around me  ( slowly ! , not like parelli ) until they get out of MY space . But if they ask me to move out of theirs I pay them the same respect . I just don't force THEM to do anything .
		
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OK - THAT worries me. They are not asking you to move out of their space because they like you! They are doing it as the first step on a very subtle but to them blindingly obvious path towards being the "boss". They should not be allowed to get INTO your space in the first place.
TBH, there are no (or very few) "equal partnerships" in horse world. Maybe some equal pairs in the lower orders, but there is ALWAYS a boss in a herd. And if the herd is two (you and him), then you had better be the boss... You don't have to be nasty to be a leader.
I am the leader in our mob (6 horses and counting...). EVERY single one of them is easy to catch, happy to see me, willingly goes to work, and is a well rounded individual. But they do not enter my space unless invited to do so, and they stop/back up away from the gate, turn and face the gate after they go through, etc etc, with just a look. This is what allows me to bring 4 horses in at a time from their paddock without it turning into a fiasco. They know what the rules are.


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## PolarSkye (9 April 2014)

gwniver said:



			boundaries are different to not making them do anything , Personal space for instance . I will swing my arms around me  ( slowly ! , not like parelli ) until they get out of MY space . *But if they ask me to move out of theirs I pay them the same respect .* I just don't force THEM to do anything .
		
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Um.  No.  I do not expect to be moved around by my horse - he is far too big to be deciding where he puts himself without thought or care of his human handlers - whoever they are.  When I came off him and broke my pelvis, I was still up the yard turning out/mucking out, etc.  As you can imagine, walking was a real challenge so it took me ages to get up to the field and any sideways movement was agony so I needed Kal to be especially mindful of where I was.  I taught him (without beating him, btw) that he HAD to walk at my pace up to the field, that he couldn't jerk away from me to snatch at grass, etc., and that he was NEVER to shove or barge.  I say taught - he knew those things already - but I did make sure he really remembered.  

Two years later, I still insist on good ground manners - I expect him to move away from me when I ask, and he is reprimanded or reminded if he forgets himself and moves into my space.  My YO's niece lives on the yard - she is four - she often comes up to help - I can't have him knocking her over.  Ditto my lovely fellow livery who brings him in/puts him to bed (changes rugs, feeds, etc.) for me about four days a week - she is in her fifties.  She tells me he stands like a rock.  Excellent.  So he should.

I am all for treating horses with kindness - but I actually believe that it is kinder to instill proper manners than raise a horse who, in other hands, might be labelled a problem and either treated roughly or (worse) passed around/PTS.

P


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## Hoof_Prints (9 April 2014)

Agree that is very worrying about letting your horse boss you around, they are very powerful animals that can do a lot of damage if you haven't already noticed. Horses actually do not like to be equal, they are followers and enjoy the comfort of having you as a leader to tell them what to do, they gain trust from you being of a higher ranking and by sending them mixed signals (being both submissive and assertive to their actions) you will just confuse and upset them. I'm currently dealing with a little **** of a youngster who has been treated in such a way, he rears up at people and bites. Think about how horses treat each other, they are not gentle ! and if they see you as an equal or lower, you will find out first hand.


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## ester (9 April 2014)

What happens if they ask you to move out of your space and you don't? do they ask again more forcibly?


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## soulfull (9 April 2014)

I agree with all those that are concerned

But in my experience we are ALL wasting our time OP is one of many that thinks we are all cruel or at least unnessarily harsh
She also believes that when he horse keeps following behind in the field that he/she wants to be with her. She doesn't have a clue that said horse is herding her 

She will constantly mis the small mistermeanours that we would all gently put a stop too
If she is lucky she will get away with it as her horse will be happy with a little bossing. However one day she we meet one that will be really smart and keep pushing until he/she is well and truly the boss 

But don't forget we are all wrong -


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## blackandwhite (9 April 2014)

I own the horse that kept pushing till he was the boss. That's why we call him Horrible Horse. His previous owner bought him as a nice safe little plod to "bond" with through the wonders of Parelli!! What she actually bought was a baby. What she ended up with was a 15.1 heavyweight bully. He's injured people seriously, he has no respect for people because he was allowed to "express his personality" (his previous owner told me exactly that when were seriously considering if he was too bad to keep). He was taught to behave like that. It's taken us 3 years but he's a much reformed character now. It's all still I there though and every know and again he reminds us. We know how he works but he terrifies other people. As such I'm quite happy for him to be on special measures at the yard if needed. He cannot be allowed to negatively affect other liveries. I suspect OP that while you might be OK with your horses other liveries may well see things you don't. My horse's previous owner was totally blind to the monster she created. She loved him to pieces but he's way too big and way too strong to be a spolied dog.


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## Meowy Catkin (9 April 2014)

gwniver said:



			As far as the puddle goes , i would try and show him it is ok but if he really didnt want to then i wouldnt make him . It isnt life or death that he walk through a puddle 

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I'd never get anywhere with mine if I took that attitude - there's a ford at my yard.

You don't have to be mean and violent to get horses to do things that they are reluctant to do (eg getting my gelding to walk through the ford, when he's never seen one before), but you do have to be patient and committed, plus I stacked the cards in my favour and got someone to lead his mate in front of him. 

So the mare went through happily and was then asked to wait for us in sight. My gelding stopped at the edge of the ford and said 'no way' by backing up fast, trying to turn away and then rearing a few times. I waited for him to stop (the long leadrope came in handy) and then I asked him to walk on again. He said no again, but was less dramatic. So i asked again, and he sniffed the water. So i took a couple of steps into the ford. He hesitated, I said walk on and took another step, he followed at a power trot to join his mate.

Now he goes through happily without another horse to lead him (we did a bit more training with the other horse to get to this stage), but imagine what would have happened if I'd given up when he first protested? I can't have a horse that doesn't go through water. I now have one that does so sweetly. I managed it without shouting at him, or hitting him, but if I'd given up when he protested I'd have made a rod for my own back and got nowhere.


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## gwniver (9 April 2014)

I am quite happy to admit my horse is boss , if he wants to be left alone then ... leave him alone . I have a 5 and 6 year old  come and help me regularly and they have great fun playing with him . He understands that if he asks me out of his space and I don't then there is a good reason for this and he wont ask again . 
@ soulfull 
I have been trying to get this across for awhile - I DONT think you are unnecessarily cruel . I think that you just don't understand where I am coming from as it is different and my poor explaining skills are to blame for that . =) 

I don't subscribe to the ''boss'' in a herd theory . ...... try reading this -  http://www.amazon.com/How-Horses-Fe...886&sr=1-1&keywords=how+horses+feel+and+think

Horses arnt malicious power grabbing animal . and the real '' leader '' that they want to trust and follow is one that GOOD things happen around . One that leads them to nice pastures and protects them from predators . Who would you follow ? Someone that reacts violently if you ( perhaps by accident ) bump into them .(I am not saying you guys do I am just saying it as an example =)) Or someone who respects you and shows you where the best food , water and shelter is , someone who is fun to be around =) My horse reacts best to the second option =P

As I am writing this I realise I have no reason to be spending my time trying to convince strangers on the internet   The point of me starting this thread is to try to point out that - Just because the path that I have taken with my horses is different , doesn't mean it is bad or dangerous . It is just different =) I know you can knock it , from behind your screens on here . But I really haven't explained it properly . I would love to show you what I mean . =) And of course your experience with your horses is different because all horses are different and what you have experienced and learnt will be different to what I have . basically saying - try to have an open mind to different things , like someone said earlier in the thread - You never stop learning so don't close your mind to other ways of doing thing =)


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## southerncomfort (9 April 2014)

You certainly are entitled to train your horse in any way you see fit.

Allowing a 5 year old and a 6 year old to 'play' with a strong, powerful animal that has been taught that it's ok to move humans around is really not ok and is an accident waiting to happen and no, you shouldn't need a stranger on the internet to tell you that.

Sorry, I'm usually very diplomatic in these things but that's ridiculously and needlessly dangerous and when you horse does hurt someone he'll be labelled a 'bad horse' through no fault of his own.


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## Meowy Catkin (9 April 2014)

I agree, they aren't malicious, but they do do stuff like this -







You can immediately tell which is the lower ranking animal. It should also be stated that they didn't touch at all, no kicking, no biting and that the grey quickly became his best buddy (the photo was taken during their first few days together). He still gives way to her though.


ETA - i wouldn't let young children play with my horses loose in the field. I would let them groom two of them, but the horses would be tied up in the yard and the children would have to be supervised.


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## RunToEarth (9 April 2014)

gwniver said:



			I am quite happy to admit my horse is boss , if he wants to be left alone then ... leave him alone . I have a 5 and 6 year old  come and help me regularly and they have great fun playing with him . He understands that if he asks me out of his space and I don't then there is a good reason for this and he wont ask again .
		
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Please make sure you have good insurance and that the parents of the 5 and 6 year old playing with your horse who has never had any boundaries set understand the inherent danger you are placing someone else's children in. Allowing children to "play" with horses is not a great idea.


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## gwniver (9 April 2014)

I can understand why you would think that , but he is more polite than ever before . Of course I take safety precautions ( they wear hats ) And when I say play I mean doing, colour recognition and asking him to move backward and sideways with just there bodies .
X


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## Meowy Catkin (9 April 2014)

Have you seen Cinnamontoast's photos from when her leg was stood on by a horse?


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## gwniver (9 April 2014)

RunToEarth said:



			Please make sure you have good insurance and that the parents of the 5 and 6 year old playing with your horse who has never had any boundaries set understand the inherent danger you are placing someone else's children in. Allowing children to "play" with horses is not a great idea.
		
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Again I repeat boundaries are different to Not making him do things !!!!  He always!!! move out of you space when you swing your arms around you ( slowly ) ! I also get them to carry a stick to accentuate there ''arms '' But I make it clear - you are not asking him out of your space you are just showing him where your space is and could he please stand outside of it .


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## Meowy Catkin (9 April 2014)

Sorry Gwniver, you've not managed to convince me that your way is better and I wouldn't want small children waving sticks at my horses.


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## ester (9 April 2014)

I do have an image of your lad being right chuffed with himself after discovering that the ford was actually quite alright - and if he were 'wild' he'd have someone else telling him to get in the puddle/water as he'd be a bit restricted on surviving otherwise. 
Out of interest how old are you OP? and does anyone else have to deal with your horses in anyway?


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## JFTDWS (9 April 2014)

Enlightened despot, that's me.  If I let mine make the decisions, they would eat themselves into an early grave!


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## gwniver (9 April 2014)

Faracat said:



			Sorry Gwniver, you've not managed to convince me that your way is better and I wouldn't want small children waving sticks at my horses.
		
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I am not trying to convince you of anything !!! I am just trying to say that there are other ways that work !!!!!!!
 And that I shouldn't be ridiculed for them !!!


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## Zero00000 (9 April 2014)

He is more polite than ever, yes because you are his minion now, god forbid anyone ask him to do something!!
Please remember that if at anytime you because ill, someone else will have to deal with him, and they may get seriously hurt, 
circumstances change, and you need to look at the bigger picture,
People do not show concern for no reason, and I suspect you wear rose tinted glasses but everyone else can see that its a dangerous situation you have got yourself into.


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## Meowy Catkin (9 April 2014)

ester said:



			I do have an image of your lad being right chuffed with himself after discovering that the ford was actually quite alright - and if he were 'wild' he'd have someone else telling him to get in the puddle/water as he'd be a bit restricted on surviving otherwise.
		
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LOL!  

I guess the herd would have to leave him behind if he refused to cross a river and he was wild?


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## ester (9 April 2014)

I also think I'd rather just say back than have to go to the effort of waving my arms around...


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## gwniver (9 April 2014)

Zero00000 said:



			He is more polite than ever, yes because you are his minion now, god forbid anyone ask him to do something!!
Please remember that if at anytime you because ill, someone else will have to deal with him, and they may get seriously hurt, 
circumstances change, and you need to look at the bigger picture,
People do not show concern for no reason, and I suspect you wear rose tinted glasses but everyone else can see that its a dangerous situation you have got yourself into.
		
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As I have said - Before I had taken this training path he was a pain to turn out and he bolt down the road at one point . Now my horsey scared mother turns him out happily !!! 
most of the things you guys are say I have already explained . So please read back thought the thread and remind yourselves 

I REPEAT NOT MAKING HIM DO THINGS IS DIFFERANT TO DOING NOTHING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## JFTDWS (9 April 2014)

ester said:



			I also think I'd rather just say back than have to go to the effort of waving my arms around...
		
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Indeed.  I'm lazy.  I point at F's chest and he will back up all the way across the field (and reverse into his stable, without me moving an inch  )


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## ester (9 April 2014)

I CBA to read it all again sorry  at work kinda


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## gwniver (9 April 2014)

JFTD said:



			Indeed.  I'm lazy.  I point at F's chest and he will back up all the way across the field (and reverse into his stable, without me moving an inch  )
		
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Same here . He backs up on cue with me moveing my fingers at his chest . It is a trick .. if you like . The waving your arms thing is saying - I am not interested in you being here - I don't want to play please go away . He always does go and graze


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## ester (9 April 2014)

ah see I just say bog off for that .....


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## gwniver (9 April 2014)

ester said:



			ah see I just say bog off for that .....
		
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Trained your horse to speak English then ? I would like to see that =P


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## ester (9 April 2014)

no, just to understand it.... quite a few can manage a few key words and tonal implications....

he can do:
walk
trot
canter
stand
back
smile
bog off
stretch
oi
hup
put that down
leave...


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## JFTDWS (9 April 2014)

ester said:



			ah see I just say bog off for that .....
		
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Well that's a bit rude.  I say "not now, thank you" just as I might to a Jehovah's Witness at the door.  But then, F is very clever, he understands basic French, German and Latin too...


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## ester (9 April 2014)

we have a bit of german and french on the yard too - at least it means they are listening to the right person


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## Fides (9 April 2014)

OP I think you are seriously delusional. Everyone at your yard had concerns as do people on here. I think there are two possible outcomes - either you get asked to leave your yard due to your horses behaviour or someone gets injured - and I hope to god that it isn't one of those poor children


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## PolarSkye (9 April 2014)

gwniver said:



			I am not trying to convince you of anything !!! I am just trying to say that there are other ways that work !!!!!!!
 And that I shouldn't be ridiculed for them !!!
		
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Who's ridiculing you?  I'm certainly not.  There's a world of difference between "not agreeing" and "ridiculing" . . . 

P


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## Hackie (9 April 2014)

Fides said:



			OP I think you are seriously delusional.
		
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No offence (or ridicule), and live and let live and all that, but I agree - its not a philosophy I've EVER seen a decent horseperson use, and I just don't see the point.  Everyone I know makes their horses do things, and its not to their detriment, so why wouldn't you when their are serious safety implications of having a horse that doesn't do as it's told?

Hopefully the outcome doesn't involve anyone else getting hurt.


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## gwniver (9 April 2014)

Look , I don't need to convince you guys , forget I said anything


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## Ibblebibble (9 April 2014)

gwniver said:



			Look , I don't need to convince you guys , forget I said anything
		
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lol impossible on HHO, but in answer to your thread title, 'too difficult to accept' it seems that the majority answer is yes!


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## gwniver (9 April 2014)

It is a shame . I wish I could invite you all done to see what I do as I realise '' I don't make my horse do anything'' sounds rather wacky . 
I try to reward the horses initiative , not just over rule him all the time . 
=)


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## xspiralx (9 April 2014)

Why don't you post a video of your amazingly well trained horse so we can all admire your skills......


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## chestnut cob (9 April 2014)

gwniver said:



			Trained your horse to speak English then ? I would like to see that =P
		
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Mine speaks (understands) English.  He knows the words "back", "over", "no", "good boy", "go on" and a variety of other words, given without hand signals in the main.  If you say "over" to him in the stable he will move over sideways.  It isn't difficult to train a few basic commands, and I've done those without any treats, arm waving, beating of the horse or anything else.  A horse doing the things you ask of him isn't mutually exclusive with cruelty and force.

Your example of the horse following you around the field and waving arms at him to make him go away.  You've contradicted yourself.  In that situation, your horse wants to follow you but you are sending him away, ergo making him do something he doesn't want to... so I don't understand your logic.

My horse is well mannered, well adjusted, adores people (would live in the house like a dog if you let him), enjoys his work and is happy.  To achieve this he has not been beaten or badly treated, but he does have boundaries set.  I wouldn't force him to do something that terrified him, but I don't expect to have to turn around on a hack because he decided that today he doesn't want to walk through a puddle.


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## Gloi (9 April 2014)

JFTD said:



			Enlightened despot, that's me.  If I let mine make the decisions, they would eat themselves into an early grave!
		
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That was my first though. 'We don't want to go for a ride, we want to go into the hayfield and eat until we explode"


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## chestnut cob (9 April 2014)

Gloi said:



			That was my first though. 'We don't want to go for a ride, we want to go into the hayfield and eat until we explode"
		
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And then keep on eating, where we have fallen over, until we have laminitis...


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## Goldenstar (9 April 2014)

Fatty taking his own decisions would basically be I'll eat myself to death while you watch .


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## pip6 (9 April 2014)

What you do is up to you as long as it doesn't endanger anyone else or abuse the horse (kindness can also be an abuse if taken too far, agree with above posts). We all have our ways, personally I never feed treats as I've known too many nippy horses who've been spoilt with them. Each to their own. I work to keep my horses, so I expect them to respond when I ask them to work in return. As it happens my girls love to work, it stimuates them & enriches their lives. I do not beat them to get them to work, in fact I never carry a stick or use spurs. I do expect them to do as I say, such as to walk through the puddle. There could be a car passing us, to have them stop or swerve around it because they didn't want to go through could cause an accident. When my first horse got very elderly (25 onwards), I'd take the tack to the yard, & see if she wanted a hack that day. I always took into account how she was feeling, & never rode her because I wanted to hack. She was semi-retired, & I respected her age.


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## Darremi (9 April 2014)

A horse weights between 5-10 times more than a human. We set boundaries for our own and everybody else's safety.

Your kind of thinking is what makes people think lions and tigers can be domesticated. It never ends well. Having a horse respect its rider/handler does not require brutality.


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## PaddyMonty (9 April 2014)

If people never asked their horses to something the horse didn't want to do then all they would do by choice is stay in field and eat. Everything else including all interaction with humans has been trained, almost always against the horses flight instinct.


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## glamourpuss (9 April 2014)

I've read through this post & thought I'd chip in my 2p worth .

I know a horse who was 'trained' this way. It all worked hunky dory whilst the horse wanted to do what the owner wanted. He then started to say no. And mean it. 
He would rear & box at with his front legs if he didn't want to come in. If you went into his field he would try to herd you around. Leading in if he decided he didn't want to leave his field mates he would whip round a gallop off. It got that no trimmer/vet/dentist in the area would treat him because of his behaviour & the owners reluctance to deal with it. He ended up being separated & on individual turn out because no one would go into the field with him to catch their own horses.
Finally even the kind & gentle owner had enough & desperately tried to find him a new home. Problem was with his behaviour no one wanted him & his future looked very bleak......he came to me (I'm a sucker for a pretty face)
Not going to lie there was a brief period of tough love - certainly NOT beating but firm boundaries & me saying very loudly to him 'I AM YOUR BOSS, DO AS I SAY'

The horse was placed 3rd in his 1st BE event of this season.


People aren't having a go at your techniques as such OP but sadly we've all seen when they go wrong. My horses old owner was certain she was doing the right thing as well. If you are happy with how things are with your horse then fine but please, please listen to the concerns others are raising. It might just mean that something which is a small issue you are over looking doesn't become something big & dangerous!


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## Patterdale (9 April 2014)

gwniver said:



			I am quite happy to admit my horse is boss , if he wants to be left alone then ... leave him alone . I have a 5 and 6 year old  come and help me regularly and they have great fun playing with him . He understands that if he asks me out of his space and I don't then there is a good reason for this and he wont ask again .
		
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Ok I'm very 'live and let live' but this really worried me. Particularly the last sentence. 
Please try to see OP, that if absolutely everyone is concerned about your methods, then they may have a point.


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## dark_prince (9 April 2014)

What if a vet had to come out to see your horse?

What if your horse doesn't want to have the vet mess and clean with a wound?

They may not always want to do things that scare them...however as rational beings we see situations differently. 

Let's be honest, in some/most situations we know better than the horse, therefore they should do as they are told and stand for the vet before the injury becomes worse. 

Can you see this point of view? I feel your rose tinted glasses may distort it somewhat


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## Queenbee (9 April 2014)

This thread (im sorry op) just reads to me like a car crash.  I'm all for 'live and let live' and also all for a no pressure approach where folks set their horses up to succeed etc, but some very serious  alarm bells are sounding to me. Personally I've always approach a horse with the attitude that if I die, or for whatever reason should have to part with my horses they should have a fully rounded education so they can move to a new home and be ok.   This means, for example, that if I want to keep my horse unclipped, un stabled, and bitless, he would still as part of his education learn how to behave when clipped, learn to stable and ride in a bit, same goes for commands, even if I wanted to waggle sticks and fingers at my horse, it would still learn traditional commands, so that any stranger would be able to safely be around my horse whatever the circumstances.  I certainly never would allow my horse to be the boss of me!!  That is just so incredibly dangerous and totally unfair on the horse.  Horses behave far better when they know what is expected of them, have set rules and boundaries and someone to look to for guidance, you put this role in the hands of the horse and you've got a serious problem waiting to happen in my opinion.  I would not trust such a horse around my children, no matter how foot perfect he seems to be, I would never advocate children waving sticks around my horse, I certainly wouldn't want to take on such a horse and try to unpick its brain for it.


It's horses like these that while  the owner crows about how wonderfully behaved they are - other people look on and thing what terrible manners the horse possesses. :/


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## blitznbobs (9 April 2014)

I guess Darwin was right...


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## zaminda (9 April 2014)

I would say if other people ever have to handle your horse, or go in the field with him to retrieve their horse then it is their business. If you are getting a lot of grief from people, then maybe there is a problem.
I will say this though, if my mare refused to go on the lorry, I would be looking at there being a problem on the lorry, she has always raced up the ramp, and I do trust her instinct. I think that is being in tune with your horse though, not allowing them to be the boss or move you out of their personal space, that way simply lies danger.


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## Arizahn (9 April 2014)

I am extremely strict with mine. He still seems happy to see me. He also respects my personal space, and that of others. A very nice animal to work around. I have no inclination to place the burden of responsibility on him, that is my job.


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## SatansLittleHelper (10 April 2014)

blitznbobs said:



			I guess Darwin was right...
		
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OMG I just lost my coffee


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## jeeve (10 April 2014)

Of course it is ok - I know others that work like this, it is your horse, your choice


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## JLD (10 April 2014)

gwniver said:



			Just because I don't make my horse do anything doesn't mean we do nothing ! ;-)

It just makes him feel more secure in trying/allowing me to do new things . Imagine you were asked to do something that you were generally scared of . Would you be more confident knowing that at any point you can say '' stop , I am scared lets go back '' ?  

As far as napping , he doesn't nap at all . =)
		
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Not read all the replies but was of the leave everyone to their own thought until I read this - I have anxiety issues and actually - no - if I was doing something I didn't want to do and knew I could back out at any time I would never overcome my anxiety in doing it I think this would make me feel worse in the long term not better.I suddenly felt a bit sorry for the horse. I guess it's like children where without kind but firm boundaries they feel quite scared and rudderless.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (10 April 2014)

People or horses exceed at very little in life if they never learn to move outside their comfort zones. And some things to me sound more like what you think you will achieve rather than what you're actually doing with them. Sorry but reading what you right that's what I get. Like the person at my barn that comes in with stories about how she handles all sorts of horses on her job. Ones the staff are too scared to handle. Yet my husband more often than not has to bring her horse in from the field. At 11 her horse walks all over her and she can't handle one side of him in the easiest of situations. Yet she goes somewhere else and is insta horseman. 

You can do what you like but if you jeoprodize the saftey of others they won't be too happy. And who could blame them.

Terri


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## gwniver (10 April 2014)

JLD said:



			Not read all the replies but was of the leave everyone to their own thought until I read this - I have anxiety issues and actually - no - if I was doing something I didn't want to do and knew I could back out at any time I would never overcome my anxiety in doing it I think this would make me feel worse in the long term not better.I suddenly felt a bit sorry for the horse. I guess it's like children where without kind but firm boundaries they feel quite scared and rudderless.
		
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Sorry to point this out but - You have an anxiety problem .... horses don't 

AND I REPEAT AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN SO LISTEN !!!!! NOT MAKING HIM DO ANYTHING IS DIFFERANT TO NOT HAVING BOUNDARIES !!!!!!!!!!!


Also , we never go far outside his comfort zone . So his comfort zone slowly expands until he has ''conquered '' the whole area WITHOUT having to be booted or pulled in the mouth every 5 mins


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## PolarSkye (10 April 2014)

gwniver said:



			Sorry to point this out but - You have an anxiety problem .... horses don't
		
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So no horse is ever anxious ever?  Some horses are not naturally more anxious than others?  If you honestly believe either of these statements, you haven't met many horses and you certainly haven't met mine. 




			AND I REPEAT AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN SO LISTEN !!!!! NOT MAKING HIM DO ANYTHING IS DIFFERANT TO NOT HAVING BOUNDARIES !!!!!!!!!!!
		
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First - stop shouting.  Second - the two are inextricably linked.  Boundaries *include* insisting that a horse do something it doesn't want to - often for its own good - someone above used a very good example of letting a vet perform some kind of procedure.  It isn't about domination, it's about leadership - "yes, I know X or Y scares you, but you need to listen to me right now and do as you are told."




			Also , we never go far outside his comfort zone . So his comfort zone slowly expands until he has ''conquered '' the whole area WITHOUT having to be booted or pulled in the mouth every 5 mins
		
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Why, oh why, do you feel that people who DO set up strong boundaries with their horses do it by booting, pulling, beating, etc.?  It just isn't true!

P


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## ribbons (10 April 2014)

Whatever you say, you clearly have very little experience of horses generally. Horses most certainly do suffer with anxiety problems. Usually caused by humans putting them in situations where by they have to make decisions that would naturally be made for them, in the wild by the herd leader, in domestication by the human.
Your horse will either become hugely anxious or totally dominant, depending on his personality. Either will end badly.
Sometimes an overly anxious horse is more dangerous than a confident dominant one, but to be honest, you should be ashamed of yourself, allowing either situation to develop, and believe me it will. We here, will never know because I doubt you'll admit it here when a serious accident happens. 
Half a ton of horse being allowed to decide what happens, when it happens, and who is allowed in his space, and when he's allowed in your space, then introducing 2 very small children into that situation waving sticks !!!!!!!!
They're not even your children.
No wonder the other people on the yard are trying to make you see sense. I hope to god they don't give up and wait for the inevitable.
Well, when someone gets seriously hurt or killed, it will be entirely your fault. 
How many experienced knowledgable people does it take, explaining why its wrong, before you realise the risks you are putting horse and human at risk.


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## touchstone (10 April 2014)

I also believe that discipline is important, I expect horses to be well mannered and this is all due to everyday handling and training.   I don't overface horses, but expect them to develop and grow for their own benefit, a horse that refuses to do something reasonable when asked is an accident waiting to happen and it is also putting the horse at risk in the future if he needs to be rehomed.  Discipline is as much for the horse's benefit as the owners.

Discipline does not mean beating or hitting,I think this chap sums it up pretty well, (especially from about 6 minutes on)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me8jG05rPnk


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## Swirlymurphy (10 April 2014)

Speaking as the owner of a highly-anxious and highly intelligent exracehorse, I can tell you that we don't deal with his anxiety by letting him stay in his comfort zone and never telling him what he can/cannot do.  If we did this, the problem would escalate massively - he is big and young and would become dangerous. 

No, we deal with his anxiety by being firm, by having rules and insisting that he respects them.  He will still get a pat to reassure him but we insist on him abiding by our rules.  An examination at the vets last week when he found standing in the clinic room to be incredibly stressful and he didn't listen to us very well, taught me that we have more work to do - it is an ongoing and never-ending journey.

By never making him do what he doesn't want to do we would end up in serious trouble.


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## PolarSkye (10 April 2014)

gwniver said:



			As far as napping , he doesn't nap at all . =)
		
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So what's your definition of "napping" . . . ?

To me, refusing to do something/go where you want him to go (e.g., through a puddle) is napping.  Perhaps you have a different definition?

Also, no'one here is saying that because you don't "make" your horse do something he doesn't want to do that means you do nothing with him . . . what they *are* saying is that the things you do do with him ("playing," waving sticks around, letting him determine whether or not he wants you in his space, etc.) won't be doing him (or you) any favours in the long run.  

I'm all for engaging with my horse and I certainly don't want him to become an automaton (I bought a horse with a lively, playful personality for a reason) - however, I want him and me to be safe - around each other and around anyone else we may share space with - at shows, on the yard, in the field, out and about.  Perhaps the word "boundaries" is what irks you - how about "manners" instead?  Big, prey animals like horses who are hard-wired to run first and look back - or kick out, etc., need to be taught manners so that handling them and being around them is (relatively) safe.

P


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## Landcruiser (10 April 2014)

OP, has anyone ever made you do what you don't want to do?


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## blitznbobs (10 April 2014)

I have a v young horse - that is unhandled -she doesn't want to be touched 3days ago she didn't want me to put her headcollar on, (I have put her headcollar on and off about 150 times now and she is ok with it) and tbh she doesn't want to be in a field or in a stable - with your methods shed still be the nervous wreck that arrived... Now she understands that a headcollar is ok and the field and stable are safe as well... If I hadn't made her do something she didn't want to do she'd still be on the wagon (she didn't want to get off)... I haven't hit this horse once, or raised my voice I have been firm in my control and rewarded the behaviour I want - it's not a miraculous change but there is a change ... She is not a safe horse ATM but without firm handling she never would be...

Eta oh and treats make no difference - she doesn't understand what a treat is...


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## JLD (10 April 2014)

gwniver said:



			Sorry to point this out but - You have an anxiety problem .... horses don't 

AND I REPEAT AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN SO LISTEN !!!!! NOT MAKING HIM DO ANYTHING IS DIFFERANT TO NOT HAVING BOUNDARIES !!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, if you are This rude to people I am not surprised they get fed up. You came on a public forum and are getting replies that you don't like so you are going off on one. You don't have to listen them, I actually sympathise with you have had horrible experiences on livery yards with people sticking their unsolicited opinions in my face, I was inexperienced and was happy to ask for and accept helpful advice but many others decided their way was best as well.  Actually I don't have anxiety problems I have issues but have dealt with them. So perhaps you could read properly too and stop bring so aggressive. For an apparently passive non confrontational individual you are being foul. Get a grip. You believe your way is correct and you are entitled to that view - your horses, your way. That's fine.
		
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## misskk88 (10 April 2014)

I tried to read most of this. but got lost amongst the many posts!

If I let my horse tell me what she did and didn't want to do, I would have an extremely overweight, donkey of a horse to ride! It has taken a lot of learning and training on both parts (including breaking my bad habits!) to make her a content and relaxed horse, but that has come from rules, love and time. 

You only have to look at the relationship of horses who are turned out together- it is natural for one to be head of the herd. With my old gelding, he was bottom of the pile and so he took his confidence and attitude from me, he NEEDED me to be his mum. With my mare, she is top girl, and so to let her boss me around, I would find myself with a hard to handle, nasty horse. I would much rather be a firm, but calm and kind leader, than to have a nervous wreck of a horse in the case of my gelding (who now teaches beginners), or a bad tempered mare who was not safe for others. 

Boundaries and a mututal respect are required, both for safety and happiness of horse and rider. I have seen horses that have had very little rules set for them, and amongst being hard (and sometimes dangerous) to handle, they are more often than not very insecure. 

Saying that, there are different ways and means to set boundaries and rules, and as long as it does not include any cruel or inhumance methods (including aggression or force), then I don't see the issue. Just as people, we all have different ways of learning, depending on our personalities.


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## Urban Horse (10 April 2014)

ribbons said:



			Whatever you say, you clearly have very little experience of horses generally. Horses most certainly do suffer with anxiety problems. Usually caused by humans putting them in situations where by they have to make decisions that would naturally be made for them, in the wild by the herd leader, in domestication by the human.
		
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That's fascinating... perhaps you might be able to answer a query. Firstly, what trains lead mares to make desicions about the herd and it's movements, and secondly why aren't lead mares stressed or anxious when they make those choices? If they aren't stressed, then why are other horses?


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## Patterdale (10 April 2014)

Urban Horse said:



			That's fascinating... perhaps you might be able to answer a query. Firstly, what trains lead mares to make desicions about the herd and it's movements, and secondly why aren't lead mares stressed or anxious when they make those choices? If they aren't stressed, then why are other horses?
		
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Across all species, the animal (or human) that emerges as leader is the one who is naturally more dominant and less anxious in personality. 

But you're right, herd/pack/group dynamics really are fascinating


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## zaminda (10 April 2014)

Urban Horse, I think its a bit like people from what I have seen with my own herd. Our lead mare is dominant, and confident, and one of the others is more anxious. This particular mare can be very anxious, and would run over the top of you in a blind panic without basic boundaries, and trusting the human not to put her in a dangerous situation.
Not everyone can be a leader, same with horses.


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## Urban Horse (10 April 2014)

misskk88 said:



			You only have to look at the relationship of horses who are turned out together- it is natural for one to be head of the herd. With my old gelding, he was bottom of the pile and so he took his confidence and attitude from me, he NEEDED me to be his mum. With my mare, she is top girl, and so to let her boss me around, I would find myself with a hard to handle, nasty horse. I would much rather be a firm, but calm and kind leader, than to have a nervous wreck of a horse in the case of my gelding (who now teaches beginners), or a bad tempered mare who was not safe for others. 

Boundaries and a mututal respect are required, both for safety and happiness of horse and rider. I have seen horses that have had very little rules set for them, and amongst being hard (and sometimes dangerous) to handle, they are more often than not very insecure.
		
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I'd have to say that, given the restricted areas and limited food stocks, that domestic horses endure... it might be more than a little dangerous to draw parallels with the behaviour of both feral and wild horses. 

When it comes to boundaries, my horses have none... they have been deliberately raised that way and they are the better for it. They hack and compete alongside 'traditionally' trained horses with no problems, are courteous, polite and respectful, giving far less problems than the other horses at the livery. Farriery is undertaken without us being in attendance, and when the elder mare suffered a mild colic the vet commented on how well behaved they were. As for being 'unsellable' if the need arose, well we've had so many offers for them.... largely due to their placid co-operative nature.

The way to get respect from a horse is not to demand it, but to give it... that way you can be sure that the respect given by the horse in return is real not forced, and that makes it all the sweeter.


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## Urban Horse (10 April 2014)

Patterdale said:



			Across all species, the animal (or human) that emerges as leader is the one who is naturally more dominant and less anxious in personality. 

But you're right, herd/pack/group dynamics really are fascinating 

Click to expand...

But, according to most studies, lead mares aren't dominant.... that's a mistake often made by humans who can't envisage a social system that's not based on our own power/position/rank society... a mistake that's sadly reinforced by some of the NH trainers who tell us we have to become the 'Alpha Mare'.


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## Patterdale (10 April 2014)

Urban Horse said:



			But, according to most studies, lead mares aren't dominant.... that's a mistake often made by humans who can't envisage a social system that's not based on our own power/position/rank society... a mistake that's sadly reinforced by some of the NH trainers who tell us we have to become the 'Alpha Mare'.
		
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'Dominance' is not only defined by aggressive behaviour - to be dominant over another means only that you are above them in the social hierarchy. You are very correct however that a lot of NH trainers make the mistake you've mentioned.


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## Auslander (10 April 2014)

I could do with some advice. I asked my son to turn my horse out at about 4.30pm. Alf didn't want to go in the field - he wanted to eat the nice lush grass outside the field. Charlie was instructed to wait until Alf wanted to go in the field. It's now 9.30pm, and he's still waiting...


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## JFTDWS (10 April 2014)

Auslander said:



			I could do with some advice. I asked my son to turn my horse out at about 4.30pm. Alf didn't want to go in the field - he wanted to eat the nice lush grass outside the field. Charlie was instructed to wait until Alf wanted to go in the field. It's now 9.30pm, and he's still waiting...






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*calls social services*


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## Tiddlypom (10 April 2014)

Your son is doing fine! Sometime in the next day or two Alf may choose to move through into the field. Make sure that your son knows that he must not nod off to sleep whilst he waits for this to happen, or he risks disappointing Alf if he is not ready for him.

You obviously have your horse, and your son, well trained .


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## Fides (10 April 2014)

I'm confused - has OP changed name?


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## maccachic (10 April 2014)

Maybe Op is just bad at explaining themselves - why don't they post a video of a situation.


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## Goldenstar (10 April 2014)

I think horses don't greatly like being in charge it's a dangerous thing leadership , best have an easy life and leave it to others .


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## Meowy Catkin (11 April 2014)

Patterdale said:



			Across all species, the animal (or human) that emerges as leader is the one who is naturally more dominant and less anxious in personality. 

But you're right, herd/pack/group dynamics really are fascinating 

Click to expand...

My most anxious horse is definitely top horse in my little herd.


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## Urban Horse (11 April 2014)

Fides said:



			I'm confused - has OP changed name?
		
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No, I'm not the OP... far from it. I'm actually the OH/horse carer/horse trainer of one of the board's mega posters... But throughout my fifty odd years with horses I've been very lucky having learnt horsemanship from numerous sources such as a Romany, ploughmen etc etc.... I was honoured during my charity years, to be given the chance to work with some of the most dangerous horses in the country (including some that had killed or maimed humans) and it's at times like that you suddenly realise that acting the 'Alpha Mare' and being dominant is certainly not the way to go. So if the methods, however 'untraditional' work with those horses, then it follows that they must work far better with ordinary horses that have not chosen the route of violence. 

When NH first came around, I did think for a while that horsemanship in the UK might change, but some of the NH methods I've seen are actually far worse for the horse than the more traditional BHS methods... For example I've now met a whole generation of younger horse people, new to the life, that are convinced that using pressure halters and waving bags on sticks at a horse will cure it of all its ills. Further, the current 'trainerspeak' that indicates that the speaker has a deep knowledge of herd behaviour, is often so far removed from the truth to make it unreliable at best.... and dangerous at worst.

The OP may have a point, but we are so 'ingrained' in the UK with what we're told about horses that it makes us ridicule anyone who thinks outside the box.... We all 'know' don't we, that horses must be controlled to within an inch of their lives or they'll become rampant, dangerous creatures that will kill us in our beds.... because that's herd behaviour. Yet strangely studies have shown that in fact in herds dominant behaviour happens at such a low level that it can almost be discounted.... yet even if it's at a level of 1% we base our training methods on it, and ignore the peaceful horse interactions that make up the remaining 99% of a horse's life. 

I think it was Martha Kiley Worthington that once wrote "Far better to be liked, than be Dominant."


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## Equilibrium Ireland (11 April 2014)

I'm pretty sure people get languages mixed up. So then we all have to dance around what's been said. Urban you differ than the OP. It's easy to type not so easy to have the experience to apply what you say. There is no force here and I do not like robot horses. 

As far as herd dynamics it's never very clear cut as boss and bottom. My lowest ranking, and only recently lowest ranking, pushes the "leader" around. No other horse gets away with that. Yet in strange situations, even dangerous ones, this mare rounds them up and keeps order til the situation resolves. I can explain in detail if one wishes. In all honesty I thought I was going to have to move my youngest from the herd because she was causing issues with the now lowest ranking. But I really didn't want to do that. The issues seem sorted. The leader that will keep a level head and problem solve if you like, is the sweetest mare in the bunch. No dominance or aggression. 

Terri


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## PolarSkye (11 April 2014)

Urban Horse said:



			I've now met a whole generation of younger horse people, new to the life, that are convinced that using pressure halters and waving bags on sticks at a horse will cure it of all its ills. Further, the current 'trainerspeak' that indicates that the speaker has a deep knowledge of herd behaviour, is often so far removed from the truth to make it unreliable at best.... and dangerous at worst.

The OP may have a point, but we are so 'ingrained' in the UK with what we're told about horses that it makes us ridicule anyone who thinks outside the box.... We all 'know' don't we, that horses must be controlled to within an inch of their lives or they'll become rampant, dangerous creatures that will kill us in our beds.... because that's herd behaviour. Yet strangely studies have shown that in fact in herds dominant behaviour happens at such a low level that it can almost be discounted.... yet even if it's at a level of 1% we base our training methods on it, and ignore the peaceful horse interactions that make up the remaining 99% of a horse's life. 

I think it was Martha Kiley Worthington that once wrote "Far better to be liked, than be Dominant."
		
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You are so patently not the OP, simply because you can write a decent sentence - thank you for a well-reasoned, articulate contribution to this debate .

You make some good points - particularly wrt the parlous state of NH, both here and parts of the rest of the world.  People who really want to practice "natural" horsemanship would do well to listen to/read the works of Mark Rashid.

However, I don't agree that ALL people in the UK believe that dominance is the path to take to produce happy, well-adjusted, well-mannered horses.  Personally, I think people misread horses' body language full stop.  What we see as dominant behaviour within a herd, is simply a means of expression to horses - and, as has been pointed out (by you and Terri among others) herd leadership/hierarchy is more complex than that.

At my current yard there is an elderly, blind mare.  When she is out in a herd (sometimes she is on her own in a small paddock), one of the herd members will assume the role of her "carer" and lead her to valuable resources (hay, water, hard feed).  It's always one of two who assumes this role . . . either the young (I think she's 4), feisty coloured mare who is a very "busy" horse with a sharp nature, constantly interacting with/correcting the others - or the elderly, gentle shetland gelding who is so laid back he is horizontal and keeps himself to himself.  Which one is the "leader" . . . ?  

Lastly, I think there are two issues being debated on this thread . . . one is whether or not horses are happier with firm boundaries (domesticated or not), the other is how those boundaries should be instilled/maintained.  I think even you agree that the first is a no-brainer (and this is where most people part company with the OP) - horses DO need boundaries - they need to understand where they fit into the herd, what's safe/what's not, what to expect - they thrive on routine and prefer not to be surprised by a lack of consistency.  It's how they are wired.  On the second point, I agree with Equilibrium Ireland - we're talking about semantics in language.  There's a difference between a horse who isn't allowed to breathe without the owner's permission, and one who has basic manners - and it's perfectly possible to teach basic manners without force, aggression or violence.  However, as in any interaction either inter- or intra-species, it's about a continuous conversation . . . and, as in any conversation, sometimes one side or the other might need to "raise their voice" a little to emphasize their point.  Horses do it with each other, e.g., horse A wants to play with horse B (who wants to sleep) - A nibbles at B's back leg, first B flicks an ear - A continues, then B swishes tail - A continues, then B stamps foot - A continues, then B lifts leg . . . you get my drift.  So if I have (politely) asked Kal to move over/out of my space and he ignores me, what do I do?  In all probability I will amplify the "ask" - that doesn't mean I go straight to slapping him on the shoulder and screaming at him . . . but I will up the ante a little to reinforce my request.  If I didn't want/need him to move over, I wouldn't have asked him - so I mean what I say and I want him to do as I ask.  If that's dominance, hand me a leather catsuit and a long whip .

P


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## Landcruiser (11 April 2014)

Really interesting thread with some very well reasoned posts, especially the last few. I suspect the OP has got slightly out of her depth here - which is a shame.


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## ribbons (11 April 2014)

Very well put polarskye.
I think what has happened is that OP has listened to someone like urban horse, who clearly has knowledge and experience, and tried to replicate their methods, but without any idea what they are doing.
She admits her horse is the boss and she's happy with that. He is allowed to make the decisions.
That is very different to building a partnership.
Her posts have thoroughly alarmed me, not least because she has introduced someone else's very small children into the mix.
Some people have a natural way of understanding horses and building that partnership. With just a couple of posts, I got the impression urban horse was one of these people. Unfortunately I feel OP is trying to replicate such methods without any understanding, almost expecting the desired result to just happen. 

My old dad used to have a saying that is truer today than ever I think.
'There are horse people, and there are people who have horses.

If that sounds harsh then I'm sorry, but I see it day after day after day. The amount of people who read an article, or watch a demo, by a highly respected horse man/woman with a lifetime of experience and learning behind them. Then go home, grab the horse and expect to get the same results in a day or two. It truly scares the bejeezes out of me.


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## blitznbobs (11 April 2014)

The difference between urban and the op is obvious - I'd not let the op on my yard... I'd pay urban to come...


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## windand rain (11 April 2014)

I think the problem is that the two camps appear to be separated by a simple misunderstanding. I have never raised either a hand or a voice to my ponies but they have boundaries and are happy well adjusted free thinking animals who are capable of living in a small herd without conflict. Boundaries are probably very boring to instil without the fancy halters and sticks with bags but the revolve around repetition. I do however strongly believe that without a secure network they flounder a lot like children with no rules
I have house rules for both and so far have never had an issue with either children are polite and interesting and I can take them anywhere the Horses are bright sharp and I can take them anywhere. With horses as in a lot of the worlds needs it is all about physics. apply a small amount of non aggressive force and you get an equal and opposite reaction. I abhor violence with either, either shouting or hitting so it is very quiet when I am around my horses on my own I can't say the same for others but the ponies cope well ass they understand the human world we live in.
Everyone knows the rules and they know the consequences of breaking them children and horses alike know when  I ask I expect the correct answer but of course everyone makes mistakes aand these are dealt with by the consequences I never threaten any with something I cannot or am not willing to carry out so so far I have never told a child I will kill them if they dont behave nor allowed the youngsters to take a crafty nip they get pushed away or a tread on a foot seems to work for me the ponies are all easy to handle and all bar one able to be handled by small children. The one I am not sure how to deal with as he is aggressive and dangerous when loose in the field a real charmer when caught up largely speaking I leave him to do his own thing when in the field if he wants a fuss he comes to get it if he comes teeth bared he gets chased away. I did try to fix him initially but have accepted he can never leave here as he is a child size pony and he hates children and someone somewhere would think hammering him would cure his dominance and aggressive tendencies It wont it would make him worse he is  unusual in that he is a fighter not a flight animal. Born that way as I have owned him since he was a few weeks old and he has always been handled the same way as the others he just cannot accept the house rules


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## Goldenstar (11 April 2014)

There's a difference between dominance and leadership .
I am without doubt the leader no question of it .
I am training my horses and producing and managing them to the jobs they are required to do for us.
In return they get free health care , a healthy diet ( less abundant than some might
Like ) a safe pleasant place to live in a small settled group.
It's really not a bad deal for them .
I have bought several horses over the years from people who let them be in charge including one memorable mare who had been bottle fed and was frankly a pita .
Yes she was a challenge at first but once she got that she did not need to take all these scary choices all day she became a relaxed amusing friend ( although she had the odd wobble on the catching front ) .
Some people do have a understanding of horses it's easy when you do,
I have worked strived and learned from five years old to be good with horses although now I am in my fifties I am still as committed to learning and doing things better ( although I am less interested in competitions than I was once ).
All my life I have worked hard physically and mentally to learn to be as good as possible at this .
I could not really follow what OP was getting at in her posts but if the horse takes all the decisions I fail to see how you could safely ride it at all.


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## Red-1 (11 April 2014)

EstherYoung said:



			You can't 'make' one of ours do anything. In his head, he is equestrian royalty and he will not be bossed around by his minions. But you can set up situations and change the way you ask, so the right answer is easy and the wrong answer is harder, and then he thinks he is doing what he wants. Whereas my youngster is completely different - he has such a workmanlike attitude he just needs a list of clear instructions and he'll get on with it. He gets worried if there are no clear instructions as he sees that as weak leadership and then wants to take charge himself.
		
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This.

I love to have horses that have previously been "difficult" and who can't be "Mastered" or "told". It keeps me honest about what "I Want" and how I "get it". It is a dance of making my goal our goal, or of sometimes moving my goal. Quite often my horse knows best, and by keeping our relationship so as he has an opinion he is able to communicate his wants and needs to me without the previous "bad" behaviour.

I also sympathise with the attitude on a lot of commercial yards. I teach a lot of people who wish to be what is regarded as "alternative" and there can be a surprising reaction when owners play silly puzzles with their horses. 

By the thinking quoted above my horse is equally happy to play silly games, BD, BE, BS and hack, so if presented properly horses can be happily doing a range of things. I also hate the forceful way, but there is a balance I think between forcing a horse and letting him make up his own mind.

For example, with the puddle situation, my horse did not like these, and because of his history could not be "ordered" to go through (previous habitual rearer), so I would gently request and wait it out. After being allowed to think it through he would creep through. Now he does not even hesitate, he will realise that he doesn't have to go through, but he isn't turning back either. I am happy to just wait. He prefers to go through, his decision.

As Esther says , the right thing is his choice. Happy horse and rider.

I hope you find your balance in your situation.


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## Queenbee (11 April 2014)

Urban Horse said:



			No, I'm not the OP... far from it. I'm actually the OH/horse carer/horse trainer of one of the board's mega posters... But throughout my fifty odd years with horses I've been very lucky having learnt horsemanship from numerous sources such as a Romany, ploughmen etc etc.... I was honoured during my charity years, to be given the chance to work with some of the most dangerous horses in the country (including some that had killed or maimed humans) and it's at times like that you suddenly realise that acting the 'Alpha Mare' and being dominant is certainly not the way to go. So if the methods, however 'untraditional' work with those horses, then it follows that they must work far better with ordinary horses that have not chosen the route of violence. 

When NH first came around, I did think for a while that horsemanship in the UK might change, but some of the NH methods I've seen are actually far worse for the horse than the more traditional BHS methods... For example I've now met a whole generation of younger horse people, new to the life, that are convinced that using pressure halters and waving bags on sticks at a horse will cure it of all its ills. Further, the current 'trainerspeak' that indicates that the speaker has a deep knowledge of herd behaviour, is often so far removed from the truth to make it unreliable at best.... and dangerous at worst.

The OP may have a point, but we are so 'ingrained' in the UK with what we're told about horses that it makes us ridicule anyone who thinks outside the box.... We all 'know' don't we, that horses must be controlled to within an inch of their lives or they'll become rampant, dangerous creatures that will kill us in our beds.... because that's herd behaviour. Yet strangely studies have shown that in fact in herds dominant behaviour happens at such a low level that it can almost be discounted.... yet even if it's at a level of 1% we base our training methods on it, and ignore the peaceful horse interactions that make up the remaining 99% of a horse's life. 

I think it was Martha Kiley Worthington that once wrote "Far better to be liked, than be Dominant."
		
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I most certainly do not ridicule those who think outside the box, I find it a commendable quality that in some cases has uncovered some incredibly useful insights, skills and techniques.  That does not mean that just because one accepts one 'outside the box' technique/idea that one has to accept them all.   I find op's approach to go so against the grain, of all the various techniques and approaches that I have used, this doesn't compliment any of them in my opinion and the potential issues and problems caused by this approach (not all of which would be immediately apparent) far outweigh the positive effects (if any) that I can see.


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## Queenbee (11 April 2014)

ribbons said:



			Very well put polarskye.
I think what has happened is that OP has listened to someone like urban horse, who clearly has knowledge and experience, and tried to replicate their methods, but without any idea what they are doing.
		
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I agree.  And isn't that always the start of the car crash


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## PolarSkye (11 April 2014)

Queenbee said:



			I agree.  And isn't that always the start of the car crash 

Click to expand...

Yep.

P


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## Darremi (11 April 2014)

I think some people are conflating setting reasonable boundaries with "dominating" a horse.

I try to be the boss of the herd when it comes to my horse and I. However, for the most part I do not assert myself. We largely have a symbiosis. I expect most horse people are like this.

There are rare times times when it is necessary to take a stand with certain behaviour. But once you let them now once or a few times, horses will generally learn where the boundaries are.


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## PolarSkye (11 April 2014)

Darremi said:



			I think some people are conflating setting reasonable boundaries with "dominating" a horse.
		
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Agree.




			I try to be the boss of the herd when it comes to my horse and I. However, for the most part I do not assert myself. We largely have a symbiosis. I expect most horse people are like this.
		
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Don't really agree . . . I am not "the boss" of my little herd (of two) - I am the human - I'm pretty sure both Kal and Rog are intelligent enough to know that I'm not another horse, so I don't need to be "boss" I am simply Other/Provider and "she who must be respected."  In addition, our relationship is certainly not symbiotic . . . I don't "need" them to fulfill my daily needs - but they certainly need me.  Also, you are contradicting yourself.  How can you be "boss" if you don't assert yourself - and, surely, there's no "boss" in symbiosis?  




			There are rare times times when it is necessary to take a stand with certain behaviour. But once you let them now once or a few times, horses will generally learn where the boundaries are.
		
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Depends on the horse.  Some will always, always, always push their luck (I own one of these - he's very intelligent and likes to continually test boundaries - or perhaps his inherent insecurity makes him test those boundaries to make sure they are still there).  

What I find most disturbing about the OP's assertion (and modern, so-called NH in general) is the assumption that ALL horses can be stereotyped/grouped and treated accordingly.  They are individuals, just like us - and we apply cookie-cutter approaches to their management at our peril.  What's required is a pair of eyes, a pair of ears and a brain . . . and the ability to parse the myriad of information out there and make common sense decisions based on the horse in front of you.

P


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## Ladyinred (11 April 2014)

Some great posts in this thread (secretly bumping it up  )


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## PolarSkye (11 April 2014)

Ladyinred said:



			Some great posts in this thread (secretly bumping it up  )
		
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Agree!  What started out as a preposterous set of statements from the OP has turned into a really interesting discussion.

P


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## Ibblebibble (11 April 2014)

Ladyinred said:



			Some great posts in this thread (secretly bumping it up  )
		
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glad you bumped it as there are some very interesting posts which i would have missed.


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## Landcruiser (11 April 2014)

This is my two pen'th. A couple of things, really.
A few years ago I took a pony on loan for my young novice daughter, who seemed to be all sweetness and light. She led nicely, she was affectionate, the first couple of times my daughter rode her in the arena she was compliant. Then one time she jumped out from underneath leaving my daughter on the ground. It was assumed she'd spooked. What had actually happened I think was she'd decided she couldn't be bothered and wanted to do her own thing. From then on, she was a total, and extreme, nightmare. My daughter lost all confidence, so I tried to ride her myself, as well as lunging, leading out in hand, general schooling. No whips, no hitting. This mare would roll under saddle, and buck like stink, she'd napp, she'd spin, she'd kick out at me on the lunge. She'd try to graze the whole time. She'd suddenly take off - essentially, she was dangerous. I sent her back in pretty short order. I then found out from someone else on the pony's yard, that the pony was regularly ridden by an old lady, who literally let her munch her way along wherever she wanted to go. She'd been broken by the owner, who doted on her but didn't ride her (too tall). From then on she's had no boundaries, and been allowed to make her own choices. This was the result. I suspect that pony has since been shot.

I consider myself a decent horseperson, in that both my horses are well mannered, I can ride them where I want, handle them all over. They are good with vets, dentists, trimmers etc. I enjoy their company, and they seem to enjoy mine, in that they come to me for a scratch, watch me, relax with me, happily allow me to work with them. I also consider myself a "natural" horse person, and I will allow my horses to make some decisions - the best path over rough ground, the best stride for a jump, and even a stop to admire the view and to have a smell and a listen. Why not, if we're not in a hurry? But that's not the same as not having boundaries. If I say go, we go, and if I say stop, we stop. Now. They know I mean it, or I wouldn't ask/tell. The most force I ever need is a wave of the rein end (I use split reins) or a bit of a kick (I don't usually use anything more than the lightest release or feel). Less is more. 
I think my approach produces a balanced horse, which knows the boundaries, is allowed to ask questions and give an opinion, which may or may not be acted on. I have 2 very well behaved and well socialised happy dogs too, and a couple of kids I can take anywhere, in any company, and they are all teaching me stuff all the time too. I'm not inflexible (in fact I'm pretty laid back about a lot of stuff a lot of people care about), but the important boundaries  are clear , albeit sometimes open to negotiation.


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## chestnut cob (11 April 2014)

Landcruiser, what a scary story!  I'm not surprised your daughter lost her confidence! 

I knew of one that had been brought up by a husband and wife since being tiny, and they'd treated it like a dog.  Playing with them in the field, letting it (as a foal) put its legs up on their shoulders, giving it no boundaries at all, and it didn't learn how to behave.  Tried to back it and couldn't so I believe it was sent away.  It ended up with someone I know, after they'd tried to back it a couple of times, to be schooled as it was "dangerous".  No one could do anything with it because it had grown into a 17.2hh brute which still thought it could play with people.  If it didn't want to be ridden, it would just get on the floor and roll.  It was rude, aggressive and nasty.  In the end it spent a summer turned out at my old yard and was PTS.  Really sad actually since it was people who made that horse the way it was.  It was anxious all the time as a result of being allowed to do as it pleased.  The horse wasn't the problem here, it was how it had been brought up.  I was sorry when I heard it had been PTS, because it should never have been allowed to end up in that situation and should have been educated properly in the first place.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (11 April 2014)

I have a 13.2 here that we started last year at 4 and let off for the winter. Completely unhandled and boy was she a powder keg. She has turned into a lovely pony without force. The reality is she will most likely be a child's pony. She is never beaten or booted or anything mean but she can't just do as she pleases. That would not be a pony that will land in a good spot. So poster above I feel your pain. Takes good schooling to get them right again and a lot of time. And still if you give them a chance to go back to old habits they'll most likely take it.

Terri


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## Alec Swan (11 April 2014)

Patterdale said:



			Across all species, the animal (or human) that emerges as leader is the one who is naturally more dominant and less anxious in personality. 

....... 

Click to expand...

All of that is summed up in the one word,  'Confidence'.  When we shout and scream and rant and rave,  all that we display is fear.  Most animals have a greater awareness of our (and perhaps their) body language than we do.  Perhaps,  as humans we are too reliant upon speech.  I'm not sure.

I haven't read all through this thread,  but will do tonight.  Some properly interesting posts!

Alec.


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## Patterdale (11 April 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			All of that is summed up in the one word,  'Confidence'.
		
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That's the word I was looking for!


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## Tiddlypom (11 April 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			All of that is summed up in the one word,  'Confidence'.  When we shout and scream and rant and rave,  all that we display is fear.  Most animals have a greater awareness of our (and perhaps their) body language than we do.  Perhaps,  as humans we are too reliant upon speech.  I'm not sure.
		
Click to expand...

I had my EDT out yesterday to float the teeth of my lot. He is not only a very good dentist, but he has a great natural affinity with horses and they all settle with him. He was so good with my 3yo filly, who can be wary with strangers. He just calmly introduced himself to her, carried chatting to me and before she knew it she had the dental gag in. Over the course of a few minutes, she was accepting the power tools and having her caps removed, and he kept chatting to me and giving her breaks. By the end, she was fully relaxed and she nuzzled him affectionately after he removed the gag.

He made it look so easy, but then that is the sign of a genius.


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## Amymay (11 April 2014)

I'm loving this thread.


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## Fides (11 April 2014)

Please let this thread die - the spelling mistake in the title is giving me the heebie jeebies...


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## doriangrey (11 April 2014)

I'm not.  I thing the OP has had a very rough deal.  Her horse seems to be thriving with a different approach.  She has consistently said that he/she is better behaved and yet .. ouch could she have more scorn/derision piled upon her?  Then along comes 'urbon foal' and says that his/her horses have been brought up with 'no boundaries' and not one realistic challenge to it (maybe polar skye).  Sorry 'urban foal' - this is not an attack on you, just how come this was accepted from you and not the OP?


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## Ranyhyn (11 April 2014)

Fides


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## Ladyinred (11 April 2014)

doriangrey said:



			I'm not.  I thing the OP has had a very rough deal.  Her horse seems to be thriving with a different approach.  She has consistently said that he/she is better behaved and yet .. ouch could she have more scorn/derision piled upon her?  Then along comes 'urbon foal' and says that his/her horses have been brought up with 'no boundaries' and not one realistic challenge to it (maybe polar skye).  Sorry 'urban foal' - this is not an attack on you, just how come this was accepted from you and not the OP?
		
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Go back and read the posts again. The difference between Urban HORSE and the OP should be easy enough to spot.


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## doriangrey (11 April 2014)

Ladyinred said:



			Go back and read the posts again. The difference between Urban HORSE and the OP should be easy enough to spot.
		
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Thanks but you don't need to point out my mistake.  Maybe the OP was not as erudite in what he/she was trying to convey as urban HORSE (thanks again) why no derision in that direction?  UH said it plain and clear .... the horses were raised with no boundaries.


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## keeperscottage (11 April 2014)

I've been reading this thread for a couple of days (seething, because our horses are SO polite and well mannered) and was determined not to post ....until tonight..... One of my liveries had a horse with colic last weekend and I ended up trailering it to vet hospital. It's a thug of a horse, zero manners - doesn't like being clipped because (according to owner) he's frightened of the colour white so he freaks when he sees his (white) coat coming off, you can't lunge him with a white lunge rein (WTF???). He is SO spoilt! I could scream with frustration!! Anyway, VERY long story cut short - horse was actually in heart failure and it was touch and go (oh, and he was too fat to ultra-scan his heart!) but he's made a recovery and will be coming home next week. Spoke to owner tonight regarding collecting him from vet hospital but, no, they don't want me to trailer him home - they're getting someone with a horse box to collect him because they think a trailer is too claustrophobic for him!! The horse completely rules their lives and is totally bad mannered but they always have an excuse for his behaviour. We would never put up with his behaviour.


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## Mrs B (11 April 2014)

Tiddlypom said:



			I had my EDT out yesterday to float the teeth of my lot. He is not only a very good dentist, but he has a great natural affinity with horses and they all settle with him. He was so good with my 3yo filly, who can be wary with strangers. He just calmly introduced himself to her, carried chatting to me and before she knew it she had the dental gag in. Over the course of a few minutes, she was accepting the power tools and having her caps removed, and he kept chatting to me and giving her breaks. By the end, she was fully relaxed and she nuzzled him affectionately after he removed the gag.

He made it look so easy, but then that is the sign of a genius.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry to hijack, but that sounds like Mr Shane K to me ...


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## Tiddlypom (11 April 2014)

Robin Harding .


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## blackandwhite (11 April 2014)

The OP may well say her horse is "better behaved" but that may well be purely her interpretation. My horse's previous owner said the same thing! She'd taken him to a Parelli "playdate" at the yard we liveried at (before we were there) where he proceeded to get free from her and career around like a maniac. She explained this as him "expressing his personality and showing off for the other horses". She honestly thought that that behaviour, which endangered people, other animals and himself, was both acceptable and to be expected. I think the difference between that approach and what urban horse has written is huge and probably why he's not been in receipt of the same criticism.


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## Dry Rot (11 April 2014)

Oh dear, I'm afraid I'm another who thinks the OP may have a point! But my experience is mainly with dogs so I really don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe it does work with her horse but I wonder if it is rather an easily dominated character (what I would call "highly geared") and the OP is unconsciously giving signals that the horse feels bound to obey? Would her methods work with other horses? Did she handle it from an early age or has someone else put in the ground work and instilled that essential respect that she now relies on?

I sometimes explain that the relationship between a working dog and it's handler is like working with the Mafia! Shouts and threats should be unnecessary. A raised finger can convey a much more powerful message if the dog is properly trained and tuned. Doesn't the skilled rider merely shift body weight to control his horse, even* think* what he wants the horse to do -- and it does it? Well, so I've been informed.

The most respected teacher never has to raise his voice in class to his pupils. Just holding eye-to-eye contact will bring the wilful child back to the straight and narrow. Over a long career, I have seen a lot of excellent working dogs and the best are usually at one end of two extremes. They are either under perfect control and react immediately to the handler's signals, but lack that flash and style of the natural worker. Or they have all that flash and style (what I think Alec may mean by "confidence"?) but it cannot be controlled or only so with difficulty. The rare one has the balance between the two and that is both flashy and stylish but can instantly be controlled and guided by the slightest change in body language. I think it is the same with some horses, but I am still a learner.

So, just how does the trainer go about getting that fine level of control without "knocking the bloom off"? Ah, there's the rub! Maybe the OP has achieved this, at least as far as she needs to do it for her own purposes? But if she is leaving all the decisions to her horse I rather doubt it. On the other hand, if she is subconsciously applying such a low level of control that even she doesn't know she is doing it, she has a rare gift. So, for me, the jury is still out. I'd be rather reluctant to crush a seedling that might one day grow into a mighty oak.


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## doriangrey (11 April 2014)

I think that's fair enough, but OP got slated and no doubt about it even though they had said that their method had produced a horse that was better behaved.  I have no reason to believe or disbelieve either poster, I am just open-mouthed that equal posters on a forum got such different responses with no other reason is that one is more .. I don't know .. more plausible I guess.

ETA - in response to blackandwhite


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## Fides (11 April 2014)

doriangrey said:



			I think that's fair enough, but OP got slated and no doubt about it even though they had said that their method had produced a horse that was better behaved.  I have no reason to believe or disbelieve either poster, I am just open-mouthed that equal posters on a forum got such different responses with no other reason is that one is more .. I don't know .. more plausible I guess.

ETA - in response to blackandwhite 

Click to expand...

But the OP said the horse was better behaved but everyone on her yard had issues with it - I think that is where the difference is...

Damn I've brought the spelling mistake back to the top again!!


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## Landcruiser (12 April 2014)

The owner of the pony that (permanently) wrecked my daughter's confidence also believed she was a well behaved darling (see my earlier post). And so she was, as long as she was in her comfort zone, but in a new environment and with a job to do she was a determined, violent and resourceful thug. 
It sounds like the OP has a good relationship with her horse, and all is well for her - others on her yard clearly have concerns though. I'd love to be a fly on the wall and see what the deal really is.


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## PolarSkye (12 April 2014)

Fides said:



			But the OP said the horse was better behaved but everyone on her yard had issues with it - I think that is where the difference is...
		
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This - there's none so blind as those who will not see . . . 

. . . also OP said (and I'm paraphrasing) that she allows her horse to dictate whether or not she can be in his space.  A horse that won't let me in its space is, to me, not a particularly well-mannered animal - speaks to me of a lack of respect for the owner/handler and also, possibly, a lack of trust.  Not the relationship I would wish to have with mine - or any large, flighty, prey animal.

Lastly, if the OP had responded rationally to the debate, and been able to back up her claims instead of getting stroppy and being rude and getting rather shouty, people might have been willing to listen/be more open-minded.  I'm still not 100% convinced by Urban Horse, but he/she is at least willing to participate in a debate rather than just ranting AT other posters.


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## JennBags (12 April 2014)

Fides said:



			But the OP said the horse was better behaved but everyone on her yard had issues with it - I think that is where the difference is...
		
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^^^ this exactly.  The way she described his behaviour was not (to me) the description of a horse following a natural leader.   It's like that other recent thread where someone was complaining that everyone was telling them that their horse was fat, but they just thought it was their build.  When asked to post photos, they disappeared from the thread...despite others posting lovely photos of slim heavy-types.


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## Wagtail (12 April 2014)

Whilst I think many horses benefit from being given firm boundaries, it is not a 'one size fits all'. I treat every horse here completely differently depending on temperament and personality. I have one that I allow to give me playful nibbles because I have known him for many, many years and he is the most gentle, well mannered horse anyone could wish to meet. He knows exactly how hard he is nibbling and would never ever hurt you, and only dos it with people he knows well and is affectionate with. On the other end of the scale, I have a two year old that would get an immediate and very hard whallop if he ever put his teeth near me because give him an inch and he turns into a nasty aggressive teenager. He also NEVER gets treats, whereas most of the others do. I love him to bits and he is starting to turn into a lovely polite and affectionate gentleman.

People do not know the OP's horse and so I think it is wrong to assume that he will turn into a dangerous thug. All horses are different.


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## spotty_pony (12 April 2014)

Sounds a bit odd to me. I know many horses which would, given a chance completely play on you allowing them to not do something if they didn't want to My Appy spooks at drains - if I turned him around every time we met one. we wouldn't make it out of the yard!!  I ride quite a few young horses and teach them to hack alone, etc. I agree it is all about trust, not through force but I wouldn't give in and turn back, just give them a while to process and think about what it is they have been asked to do and most of the time they will do it anyway once they have thought about it. Just yesterday I hacked out a baby for his first proper hack alone. He was very wary when we came to a farm along a bridleway as there was lots to see and look at so I gave him a moment to stand and take it all in, then he was happy to walk on and trusted me it is ok. IMO turning your horse back every time it says no isn't gaining there trust - rather loosing it as they haven't the trust in you to try it - therefore you need to work on your partnership to get any further.


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## Dry Rot (12 April 2014)

Fides said:



			But the OP said the horse was better behaved but everyone on her yard had issues with it - I think that is where the difference is...

Damn I've brought the spelling mistake back to the top again!!
		
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And so it might. Because every time a different person interacts with a horse the dynamics within the herd change. And a herd (or pack) can comprise only two members. 

What I am saying is that horse and the rider/handler can constitute a herd even though it is a herd with only two members. As another poster has pointed out, the social hierarchy within a herd is a lot more complex than the popular idea that A dominates B, A and B dominate C, and so on. Sometimes ranks are reversed, sometimes they are equal, the changes can occur in fractions of a second (watch young animals play). A new herd probably hasn't an established hierarchy at all, though each member will generally take on assumptive positions from past experience (i.e. training).

I have had many perfectly trained dogs that another person could not handle. That doesn't mean it was a bad dog, just that the new handler was unable to form a relationship with the dog. Some dogs will work for anyone, some will only work for one handler. I am quite sure there are horses like that. Maybe the OP's horse is one of them? So everyone at the yard says it is badly behaved and a liability?

It is a great thing to be able to handle a working animal with minimal pressure. If the OP can do that, who are we to say it isn't possible? I have been in a similar situation. The experts said it couldn't be done. So I put it on video. There are few things more satisfying than proving the "experts" wrong!

So, I would say to the OP, keep doing what you are doing. TYhe prophets of doom have been saying, "It can't be done", since before some idiot invented the wheel -- and I'll bet they all said that wouldn't work either!


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## Doormouse (12 April 2014)

I think that there is something to be learnt from every discipline and every school of thought in the horse world and I would say that in general most people are open minded enough to understand this.  Problems perhaps arrive when people become inspired by a 'new' way of doing things, stick religiously to it no matter what the situation and execute it without the experience or knowledge to back it up.

The belief by some people that every horse person in general immediately reaches for their stick as soon as a horse doesn't want to do something is ridiculous, I would say that most of the horse world has the sense to realise that horses are flight animals and that many things we ask them to do are frightening for them intially. Reassurance is very important and always the first port of call with any horse and I honestly believe that most people take this option.


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## JennBags (12 April 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			And so it might. Because every time a different person interacts with a horse the dynamics within the herd change. And a herd (or pack) can comprise only two members. 

What I am saying is that horse and the rider/handler can constitute a herd even though it is a herd with only two members. As another poster has pointed out, the social hierarchy within a herd is a lot more complex than the popular idea that A dominates B, A and B dominate C, and so on. Sometimes ranks are reversed, sometimes they are equal, the changes can occur in fractions of a second (watch young animals play). A new herd probably hasn't an established hierarchy at all, though each member will generally take on assumptive positions from past experience (i.e. training).

I have had many perfectly trained dogs that another person could not handle. That doesn't mean it was a bad dog, just that the new handler was unable to form a relationship with the dog. Some dogs will work for anyone, some will only work for one handler. I am quite sure there are horses like that. Maybe the OP's horse is one of them? So everyone at the yard says it is badly behaved and a liability?

It is a great thing to be able to handle a working animal with minimal pressure. If the OP can do that, who are we to say it isn't possible? I have been in a similar situation. The experts said it couldn't be done. So I put it on video. There are few things more satisfying than proving the "experts" wrong!

So, I would say to the OP, keep doing what you are doing. TYhe prophets of doom have been saying, "It can't be done", since before some idiot invented the wheel -- and I'll bet they all said that wouldn't work either!
		
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But the problem is - as has been pointed out many times - that sometimes other people NEED to be able to handle your horse - and if you are the only one who can, then this is a problem.  Also, the OP has other people's children going in her field and "playing" with her horse....if she is the ONLY one that the horse listens to, do you really condone this?


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## Woolly Hat n Wellies (12 April 2014)

My friend was very much a novice to the day-in day-out dealing with a horse when she got her first one. She had a support network, but the promised help didn't really materialise (and sank without trace when she started to have problems!). She wanted the horse to like her, and having previously ridden other people's well-mannered horses she didn't really 'get' the body language of confidence/authority. When I got to know her and visited, I found a horse who was, essentially, the boss. Nothing was asked of it when it was ridden, if it didn't want to, it didn't do. So far it had been ridden without incident, but on the floor things were deteriorating rapidly. It had massive separation anxiety. If it was left alone for 5 minutes you came back to a horse drenched in sweat, with eyes rolling. When it lost sight of its friend one day, it tried to climb out of the stable window and cut its leg, and this is when it became really dangerous. It needed bathing every day, but it didn't want anyone to touch the cut. It had threatened to kick before but the owner had always backed off and nothing had happened. Now it threatened in earnest, and when we couldn't back off because the job needed to be done, it tried to kick, and meant it. The 'no touch' zone became pretty much the front half of its body, even when the cut had healed. It started literally walking over the top of people, kicking out when handled, and swinging away from the rider at the mounting block, and it was only a matter of time before it decided it didn't want to do this riding lark at all, thank you very much. Funnily enough, in the hands of myself and the vet it was manageable, as long as it couldn't see the owner (I'm not experienced with this kind of horse at all, and am by no means qualified to fix these problems, but I'm quite experienced with cattle, and when a large, four-legged herd animal is threatening to beat you up, it doesn't really seem to matter, for a one-off encounter, if it has one toe per foot or two!). 

She sold it eventually, to someone experienced who took her to a busy yard of experienced people who wouldn't stand any nonsense, and apparently she is much more relaxed and her manners are improving. But because of her behaviour, the buyers had quite a lot of negotiating room, and basically bought a very nice saddle with a free horse thrown in.

I agree with the above posters saying horses are individuals with different needs, but if you pick the wrong approach to the wrong individual, you're going to have problems and end up with a dangerous horse. My friend's horse was very much lead mare, and was stressed beyond belief at the responsibility for decisions which she'd taken upon herself.

(P.S. They now have a much better support network, are having lots of lessons, and are focusing very hard on stable manners with their new, laid-back boy!)


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## JFTDWS (12 April 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			It is a great thing to be able to handle a working animal with minimal pressure. If the OP can do that, who are we to say it isn't possible? I have been in a similar situation. The experts said it couldn't be done. So I put it on video. There are few things more satisfying than proving the "experts" wrong!
		
Click to expand...

I think there's a difference between "low pressure" and "if you make enough fuss, we'll just avoid the issue", which is what the OP seems to be saying.  

I definitely agree with "low pressure" training, setting the horse up to succeed, capitalising on natural responses and making the right response easy.  I've seen the video you refer to (it's great  ) and that's what you were doing in it with the pups, I think?  It's what I try to do with my lot - I want them to get it right, so I will always ask a question that they can answer, and make sure I praise a sensible effort.  I don't want to batter them into submission (and I don't!).

The OP seems to be saying that if the horse doesn't want to do something (walk through a puddle or work at all) she just doesn't bother.  That's avoiding the issue, and letting the horse decide it doesn't want to do something, so it shan't.  Rather more comparable to having a dog and just not training it at all, than a dog that is trained to one person's commands!  I wouldn't really want to handle a dog that had never been trained at all, and thought it could choose what we do and when, let alone half a tonne of horse! 

I think that's what a lot of posters find worrying - a horse making all the decisions is rather dangerous.  And the OP does allow kids to handle it, which is a bit scary, if it has "no boundaries". If it hasn't been given boundaries, isn't it just luck that has prevented an accident so far?

I'm really enjoying some of the posts on this thread, and (as always) I agree with so much of what you're saying, DR


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## PolarSkye (12 April 2014)

JFTD said:



			I think there's a difference between "low pressure" and "if you make enough fuss, we'll just avoid the issue", which is what the OP seems to be saying.

The OP seems to be saying that if the horse doesn't want to do something (walk through a puddle or work at all) she just doesn't bother.  That's avoiding the issue, and letting the horse decide it doesn't want to do something, so it shan't.  

I think that's what a lot of posters find worrying - a horse making all the decisions is rather dangerous.  And the OP does allow kids to handle it, which is a bit scary, if it has "no boundaries". If it hasn't been given boundaries, isn't it just luck that has prevented an accident so far?
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for putting into words what I have so far failed to communicate . . . perfectly put .

P


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## JFTDWS (12 April 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			Thank you for putting into words what I have so far failed to communicate . . . perfectly put .

P
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for rewarding a sensible effort, and not battering me for any times I've got it wrong.  I consider this a learning experience and will re-double my efforts to maintain posting standards in future


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## PolarSkye (12 April 2014)

JFTD said:



			Thank you for rewarding a sensible effort, and not battering me for any times I've got it wrong.  I consider this a learning experience and will re-double my efforts to maintain posting standards in future 



Click to expand...

Smart arse .

P


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## gwniver (12 April 2014)

Oh gosh there are a lot of replies =)  haven't the time to read them all 
but I will repeat something again because no one seems to hear it . NOT MAKING HIM DO ANYTHING OS DIFFERANT TO NOT HAVING BOUNDARIES !!!!!!!!!!!

Also  other liveries don't have a problem handling him , they don't really .they just think it will lead to problem . 

As I said he is perfectly behaved , just this morning I had him backing around in a circle =) 

In the post above by JFTD : My horse actually wants to work with me , I will try to persuade him to go though the puddle , in all the  situations I have encountered so far . But if he is so panicked that even with treats he doesn't want to I wont make him . Is that so hard to accept ??


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## Dry Rot (12 April 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			Smart arse .

P
		
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Yeah. I shall now expect a begging letter through the post any day. Or a request for a large discount. We aren't fooled, are we?


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## PolarSkye (12 April 2014)

gwniver said:



			Oh gosh there are a lot of replies =)  haven't the time to read them all 
but I will repeat something again because no one seems to hear it . NOT MAKING HIM DO ANYTHING OS DIFFERANT TO NOT HAVING BOUNDARIES !!!!!!!!!!!
		
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Once again, please stop shouting.  And, honestly, you wouldn't have to shout if you actually read the replies.  You are doing the equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and repeating yourself - loudly - without bothering to hear what others have to say . . . I'm sorry, but that's rude.  




			Also  other liveries don't have a problem handling him , they don't really .they just think it will lead to problem .
		
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And have you asked them why?




			As I said he is perfectly behaved , just this morning I had him backing around in a circle =)
		
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But apparently you can't go into his space unless he "lets" you . . . not perfectly behaved IMHO. 




			In the post above by JFTD : My horse actually wants to work with me , I will try to persuade him to go though the puddle , in all the  situations I have encountered so far . But if he is so panicked that even with treats he doesn't want to I wont make him . Is that so hard to accept ??
		
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IME, animals who are truly frightened won't accept treats - and if treats are how you train your horse then words fail me.  In the interest of being open/helping us understand you (rather than you just shouting at us that you're right and we're all wrong), how about you tell us how you have tried (so far) to persuade your horse to do something he doesn't want to do?

I'm sorry - I try very hard to be kind, patient and open minded on this forum because I loathe forum bullies . . . but you really don't help yourself when all you do is repeat the same thing over and over.  We are hearing you . . . I wonder how much you are hearing us?  It's perfectly acceptable to agree to disagree, but you started this thread and, having chucked the cat amongst the pigeons, you seem outraged that there may be differing opinions/dissent.  If you didn't want a debate, why did you start the conversation?

While I have been enjoying the more lucid arguments in your favour (not, unfortunately including yours), I'm afraid your attitude is frustrating me beyond belief, so I'm out.

P


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## JFTDWS (12 April 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			Yeah. I shall now expect a begging letter through the post any day. Or a request for a large discount. We aren't fooled, are we?

Click to expand...

I'm not wasting money on a stamp...  Anyway, I can't have another pony till I buy more land! 



ETA - OP, my horses *want* to work with me too.  Particularly my main horse.  He loves to work and he loves to please.  AND I know that he will always try to walk through a puddle, past a scary thing or into the valley of the shadow of death if I ask him to, because he has been taught that his job is to do as he's asked, when he's asked.


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## gwniver (12 April 2014)

Hi =) I am not very good at foruming =P and I only used capitols to get the message though . I promise you I am not yelling , I just read in one of the posts in the page before saying about '' clear boundaries '' !!1

oh and he has NEVER told me to get out of his space .... but if he did , I would 
=)


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## PolarSkye (12 April 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			Yeah. I shall now expect a begging letter through the post any day. Or a request for a large discount. We aren't fooled, are we?

Click to expand...

Confuzzled?

P


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## Wagtail (12 April 2014)

gwniver said:



			Hi =) I am not very good at foruming =P and I only used capitols to get the message though . I promise you I am not yelling , I just read in one of the posts in the page before saying about '' clear boundaries '' !!1

oh and he has NEVER told me to get out of his space .... but if he did , I would 
=)
		
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Gwniver, you have had plenty of support on this thread. The least you could do is to read all the replies.


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## gwniver (12 April 2014)

I am going to try to get though them =) thank you to those who have supported me =) The last page I read up to was 15 ... or something =)


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## Capriole (12 April 2014)

gwniver said:



			boundaries are different to not making them do anything , Personal space for instance . I will swing my arms around me  ( slowly ! , not like parelli ) until they get out of MY space . *But if they ask me to move out of theirs I pay them the same respect *. I just don't force THEM to do anything .
		
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gwniver said:



			I am quite happy to admit my horse is boss , if he wants to be left alone then ... leave him alone . I have a 5 and 6 year old  come and help me regularly and they have great fun playing with him . *He understands that if he asks me out of his space and I don't then there is a good reason for this and he wont ask again .* 
@ soulfull
		
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gwniver said:



			Hi =) I am not very good at foruming =P and I only used capitols to get the message though . I promise you I am not yelling , I just read in one of the posts in the page before saying about '' clear boundaries '' !!1

*oh and he has NEVER told me to get out of his space .... but if he did , I would *
=)
		
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You've said different earlier in the thread.

People have also explained a couple of times that the use of all Caps on forums is considered shouting.

As for your training methods, wouldn't be for me but I respect your right to do what the hell you like, if it affected me in any way I'd have more of an opinion.  Just commenting as I'm reading this thread with mild interest as I wait for food to cook, and wanted to point out some of the contradictions you are making.


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## Capriole (12 April 2014)

gwniver said:



			I am going to try to get though them =) thank you to those who have supported me =) The last page I read up to was 15 ... or something =)
		
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Much easier and less clicking if you change your page settings to max posts per page, btw, I've only got 5 pages.


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## Dry Rot (12 April 2014)

gwniver said:



			(Snipped)

In the post above by JFTD : My horse actually wants to work with me , I will try to persuade him to go though the puddle , in all the  situations I have encountered so far . But if he is so panicked that even with treats he doesn't want to I wont make him . Is that so hard to accept ??
		
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And you are absolutely right! At least, I think so.

But in the JFTD example, I assume you have your horse in a head collar with a lead rope? To a correctly trained horse, a light tug should be sufficient compulsion, but compulsion it is so don't be fooled or you wouldn't need either. I can send my older GSD into the kennel by moving a finger half an inch, but don't think for one moment that there isn't any compulsion there.

For example, I believe most of the loading problems are caused by those who believe that a refusal to load can be overcome by brute force. Sometimes, they have to be and brute force is the only way as the horse has to be loaded, come what may, but force so often sets up resistance. Or even a phobia. Then you really DO have a problem! Puddle crossing could just as easily become that sort of an issue. So I agree with the OP.

On the other hand, force is sometimes needed but it is something that takes expertise and fine judgement to administer properly to get the right results. (One reason I try to avoid answering questions like, "My dog won't." in the doggy section. Fill in the blank for yourself!). 

My pup pulled the flying pan off the cooker last night and got bitten for his trouble. He probably won't do that again. But the biter knew how hard and when to bite. And, you know what? Pup actually loves me for it as it has established a boundary and we made friends again immediately after. The pup trespassed into my territory, discovered the consequences, and that is something he understands. He is still in the pack and I didn't attempt to drive him off. We speak the same language as he is quite excited to discover.

So, while I agree with the softly-softly approach, we are back to dealing with the Mafia. "Don Corleone asks a favour of you". A mild enough request, which is always granted, and decidedly softly-softly. There is no need for a threat. There is mutual respect and the rest is understood. You don't want to sleep with the fishes, do you?

So I think the OP has grasped the idea. Or at least half of it. The horse is not a democrat. It does not attend committee meetings before deciding what to do. In the wild, it lives in a hierarchical dictatorship that is in a state of permanent flux and eternal challenges. It always amuses me how there has to be a sorting out of that hierarchy every time I return a dog to his kennel, even if the absence has been for only a few minutes. If we can be that dictator, I hope it is as a benign one. OP seems to have got there. Just let's hope there is no Che Guevara lurking under her horse's skin!

And, yes, JFTD, what's on the video is part of it, but there is a lot more where that came from.  It took me 30 years to realise what I think the OP may now be experiencing and there is more to it than is written in the books.


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## JFTDWS (12 April 2014)

But force isn't the only way to get a horse to do something - nobody here is saying "batter it through the puddle" - I'm certainly not.  I'm saying that tackling the puddle has to be done, by some means - softly softly, cunningly, or with some encouragement depending on the nature of the horse.  Avoiding the issue isn't an option long term (with most things).

DR, I'm reading your post and what you're saying doesn't sound remotely like the OP's statements!


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## Dry Rot (12 April 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			Confuzzled?

P
		
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Private humour. JFTD, who it was aimed at, got it!


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## PolarSkye (12 April 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			Private humour. JFTD, who it was aimed at, got it!

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Ah - ok 

P


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## Dry Rot (12 April 2014)

JFTD said:



			But force isn't the only way to get a horse to do something - nobody here is saying "batter it through the puddle" - I'm certainly not.  I'm saying that tackling the puddle has to be done, by some means - softly softly, cunningly, or with some encouragement depending on the nature of the horse.  Avoiding the issue isn't an option long term (with most things).

DR, I'm reading your post and what you're saying doesn't sound remotely like the OP's statements!
		
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What I'm saying is the OP may be using force when she is not even aware of it.


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## JFTDWS (12 April 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			What I'm saying is the OP may be using force when she is not even aware of it.
		
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Thanks for the clarification, I missed that   Interesting perspective!


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## PolarSkye (12 April 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			What I'm saying is the OP may be using force when she is not even aware of it.
		
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In which case she still may not know her arse from her elbow . . . 

P

P.S.  Sorry, couldn't resist - will get my coat


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## Wagtail (12 April 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			In which case she still may not know her arse from her elbow . . . 


P

P.S.  Sorry, couldn't resist - will get my coat
		
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What is the point you are trying to make here? Are you making a personal remark against the OP's character or are you contributing to the interesting discussion?

ETA: The OP comes over as being quite young (sorry Gwniver if I am mistaken), and for someone who said you do not like forum bullies, you are doing a pretty good impression.


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## PolarSkye (12 April 2014)

Wagtail said:



			What is the point you are trying to make here? Are you making a personal remark against the OP's character or are you contributing to the interesting discussion?
		
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The point I am making (not trying to make - and I am ignoring your sarcasm) is that I think the OP doesn't know what she is doing and needs help.

I believe I HAVE contributed to the "interesting" discussion - and now I'm done.  I had you on UI, took you off because the notifications were more annoying than your posts, but now I am reconsidering.

P


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## Wagtail (12 April 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			The point I am making (not trying to make - and I am ignoring your sarcasm) is that I think the OP doesn't know what she is doing and needs help.

I believe I HAVE contributed to the "interesting" discussion - and now I'm done.  I had you on UI, took you off because the notifications were more annoying than your posts, but now I am reconsidering.

P
		
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Not being sarcastic at all. Just asking you a question. I genuinely wanted to know your reason for posting the comment. But by all means put me on UI. It's always more effective when you tell the person you are doing it.


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## PolarSkye (12 April 2014)

Wagtail said:



			What is the point you are trying to make here? Are you making a personal remark against the OP's character or are you contributing to the interesting discussion?

ETA: The OP comes over as being quite young (sorry Gwniver if I am mistaken), and for someone who said you do not like forum bullies, you are doing a pretty good impression.
		
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Wait . . . stating that someone might not know their arse from their elbow is bullying?   You need to look up the definition in a dictionary.

And FWIW, the inability to spell/construct a sentence doesn't necessarily denote youth.

I wish the OP well with his/her horse . . .  but I (strongly) disagree with his/her viewpoint/approach, especially as there are young children (not his/hers).

End of.

P


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## Wagtail (12 April 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			Wait . . . stating that someone might not know their arse from their elbow is bullying?   You need to look up the definition in a dictionary.

And FWIW, the inability to spell/construct a sentence doesn't necessarily denote youth.

I wish the OP well with his/her horse . . .  but I (strongly) disagree with his/her viewpoint/approach, especially as there are young children (not his/hers).

End of.

P
		
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I have the impression that G is young, not just because of spelling but her responses to this thread. That is why I was concerned when an uncalled for comment was made. It just upset me seeing it, so I asked why you made the comment bearing in mind your previous remark about bullying. The majority of responses on this thread have been against what the OP is doing. She has reacted by 'shouting' in her frustration (which again makes me think she is very young). I think that most comments have been well thought out and informative. But when personal digs are made towards someone who is obviously getting upset and who comes across as young, then yes, I class that as bullying.


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## PolarSkye (12 April 2014)

Wagtail said:



			I have the impression that G is young, not just because of spelling but her responses to this thread. That is why I was concerned when an uncalled for comment was made. It just upset me seeing it, so I asked why you made the comment bearing in mind your previous remark about bullying. The majority of responses on this thread have been against what the OP is doing. She has reacted by 'shouting' in her frustration (which again makes me think she is very young). I think that most comments have been well thought out and informative. But when personal digs are made towards someone who is obviously getting upset and who comes across as young, then yes, I class that as bullying.
		
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Then we will have to agree to disagree.  The "shouting" was rude . . . plenty of people on here "shout" and that doesn't necessarily denote youth.  I didn't see someone who was upset, I saw someone who was holding fast to their right to be "right" and refused to listen/accept advice or input.  

OP - if you are young and vulnerable and I have offended you, I am sorry . . . but please be careful with those young children around your horse.

P


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## Wagtail (12 April 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			Then we will have to agree to disagree.  The "shouting" was rude . . . plenty of people on here "shout" and that doesn't necessarily denote youth.  I didn't see someone who was upset, I saw someone who was holding fast to their right to be "right" and refused to listen/accept advice or input.  

OP - if you are young and vulnerable and I have offended you, I am sorry . . . but please be careful with those young children around your horse.

P
		
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She is 13 years old here. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?560625-am-i-to-tall!!!!

So 14, at the most 15 now.


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## PolarSkye (12 April 2014)

Wagtail said:



			She is 13 years old here. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?560625-am-i-to-tall!!!!

So 14, at the most 15 now.
		
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So old/savvy enough to know not to "shout" on an internet forum, too young to be letting other young children windmill around her (untrained) horse and definitely old enough to have manners/listen. 

I have apologized to OP if I have hurt/offended her . . . but I still think she needs help.

P


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## gwniver (12 April 2014)

Ok - thank you wagtail =D 
when I used capitols I really didn't want it to mean shouting in frustration , I probably should have use underline instead , I am sorry =)

Polarstar , I have been doing this approach for awhile now and I have only seen him go from a spooky , jumpy youngster . Who then I didn't let the children be around as he was unsafe then . So sorry .... but I am not going to listen to your advise =)


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## Wagtail (12 April 2014)

I actually think the parents of the 5 and 6 year old are responsible for what they are allowed to do. Gwniver, do the parents know they are 'playing' with your horse whilst it's loose? And do they wear hard hats?


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## Urban Horse (13 April 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			I wish the OP well with his/her horse . . . but I (strongly) disagree with his/her viewpoint/approach, especially as there are young children (not his/hers).

End of.

P
		
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You see this is why my horses and I tend to keep a low profile in the world. Weve had no end of folk fall for the charms of the mares especially, until that is, they find out how they were trained to become the gentle co-operative creatures they are. No boundaries they say in a horrified tone of voice, as though it had suddenly been revealed that the mares were the stars if the Alien movies, and had the ability to spit acid and kill humans in no end of unpleasant ways.

The reason behind their training was simple; I have tried to indicate in previous postings that violence in horses is comparatively rare, and that the ranking system that we put so much credence on in our work with horses, has very little meaning to them. If you think about it, horses are one of the most prolific breeders on the planet, and in some areas feral horses are becoming a problem for farmers and stock breeders, even in areas where there is natural predation of herd members. Now, if horses were to be continually bickering, with power struggles within the herd, we might be inclined to think that they would become easy prey, far more bothered about internal politics that the approaching danger. If we take the view that the herd is settled, co-operative and far more interested in alerting each other to approaching danger, then we start to make sense of why, despite predation, feral horse numbers increase alarmingly in some areas.

So, working with that as a starting point, that horses are by nature polite and happier in a settled situation, they were allowed to set their own boundaries when in our company. They have applied the rules about how close they should stand, whether they should put their mouths on us, and when being led how far away they should be or how far in front or behind. We dont listen to those who tell us that in doing so were allowing the horses to dominate us, for the simple reasons that firstly they arent, and secondly, horses dont feel the need to dominate. What they do feel the need for however, is survival they will do whatever it takes to stay alive, and its this need and resultant behaviour that often leads to horses being unfairly labelled or branded as un-cooperative or badly behaved.

With that survival instinct in mind, and applying one of the earliest lessons passed down to me years ago that If you give a horse an escape route, chances are hell never need to use it. If you dont give a horse and escape route, chances are hell use most of his brain trying to find it., we have found that giving them the freedom to choose their boundaries, and working with them when they are loose and have the ability to move away from situations that are initially unsettling (even if they dont choose to use that ability) they absorb knowledge far faster than we can teach. 

The only drawback is that you can never get rid of them. Every move you make on their territory has to be accompanied, every fence repair or water tank filling is checked and pooper picking becomes somewhat of a farce. Such is the depth of the relationship that they even try to pooper into the barrow. Oh, and allogrooming often means being late home for tea.


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## Dry Rot (13 April 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			In which case she still may not know her arse from her elbow . . . 

P

P.S.  Sorry, couldn't resist - will get my coat
		
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No need to get your coat. 

Most of the more useful inventions and discoveries were arrived at by accident. Penicillin for one.

Which is why the eccentrics did so much to make Britain great. 

Maybe the OP is one and has a useful contribution to make? We'll never know if we don't listen.

(And the jury is still out here. I am still willing to accept that she is a benign idiot!).


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## Fides (13 April 2014)

Urban horse - violence is rare in the horse world as horses know not to overstep their mark, if they do however the offended horse will thrash out or at least put their ears back... They wouldn't just ignore the behaviour


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## Arizahn (13 April 2014)

Wagtail said:



			I actually think the parents of the 5 and 6 year old are responsible for what they are allowed to do. Gwniver, do the parents know they are 'playing' with your horse whilst it's loose? And do they wear hard hats?
		
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This. Be aware, OP, that said parents will definitely blame you and your horse if their children are injured or frightened. So please do be careful. Best of luck with your horse, and remember the golden rule of horses: there is ALWAYS more to learn, and what works now may one day need to be adapted!

<shouts to be heard over the debate>


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## gwniver (13 April 2014)

The parents are well aware =) and they are always wearing hard hats . To me all children that are small need to wear a hard hat around horses =) 

Arizahn - my horses will never let me forget that =)


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## PolarSkye (13 April 2014)

Urban Horse said:



			You see this is why my horses and I tend to keep a low profile in the world. We&#8217;ve had no end of folk fall for the charms of the mares especially, until that is, they find out how they were trained to become the gentle co-operative creatures they are. &#8220;No boundaries&#8221; they say in a horrified tone of voice, as though it had suddenly been revealed that the mares were the stars if the &#8216;Alien&#8217; movies, and had the ability to spit acid and kill humans in no end of unpleasant ways.

The reason behind their training was simple; I have tried to indicate in previous postings that violence in horses is comparatively rare, and that the ranking system that we put so much credence on in our work with horses, has very little meaning to them. If you think about it, horses are one of the most prolific breeders on the planet, and in some areas feral horses are becoming a problem for farmers and stock breeders, even in areas where there is natural predation of herd members. Now, if horses were to be continually bickering, with power struggles within the herd, we might be inclined to think that they would become easy prey, far more bothered about internal politics that the approaching danger. If we take the view that the herd is settled, co-operative and far more interested in alerting each other to approaching danger, then we start to make sense of why, despite predation, feral horse numbers increase alarmingly in some areas.

So, working with that as a starting point, that horses are by nature polite and happier in a settled situation, they were allowed to set their own boundaries when in our company. They have applied the rules about how close they should stand, whether they should put their mouths on us, and when being led how far away they should be or how far in front or behind. We don&#8217;t listen to those who tell us that in doing so we&#8217;re allowing the horses to &#8217;dominate&#8217; us, for the simple reasons that firstly they aren&#8217;t, and secondly, horses don&#8217;t feel the need to dominate. What they do feel the need for however, is survival&#8230; they will do whatever it takes to stay alive, and it&#8217;s this need and resultant behaviour that often leads to horses being unfairly labelled or branded as un-cooperative or badly behaved.

With that survival instinct in mind, and applying one of the earliest lessons passed down to me years ago that &#8220;If you give a horse an escape route, chances are he&#8217;ll never need to use it. If you don&#8217;t give a horse and escape route, chances are he&#8217;ll use most of his brain trying to find it.&#8221;, we have found that giving them the freedom to choose their boundaries, and working with them when they are loose and have the ability to move away from situations that are initially unsettling (even if they don&#8217;t choose to use that ability) they absorb knowledge far faster than we can teach. 

The only drawback is that you can never get rid of them. Every move you make on their territory has to be accompanied, every fence repair or water tank filling is checked and pooper picking becomes somewhat of a farce&#8230;. Such is the depth of the relationship that they even try to pooper into the barrow. Oh, and allogrooming often means being late home for tea.
		
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Lovely post . . . well written and your horse(s) sound lovely.

However, I'm not talking about violence.  I'm talking about natural horse behaviour.  Spooking, etc.  Horses are prey animals - they are hard wired to react first and ask questions later.  This young lady (the OP) has young children playing (in her own words) with a horse with no boundaries.  Yes, I read the above . . . but the horse didn't.  However horses are raised, they are still horses - they can still spook, move independently (and quickly too) and they still weigh rather more than we do - not to mention young children.  

I honestly feel like Sisyphus wrt this thread  . . . but then I'm sure you, Wagtail and the OP feel the same way, so perhaps it's time for me to really disengage.

P


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## Wagtail (13 April 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			I honestly feel like Sisyphus wrt this thread  . . . but then I'm sure you, Wagtail and the OP feel the same way, so perhaps it's time for me to really disengage.

P
		
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I am actually not on either side of the fence on this one, because as I have said before, with horses it is just not as simple as one size fits all. We have to look at the individual and adapt our training accordingly. I used the example before of the two year old at my yard. He has challenged me more than any other horse ever has and I treat him very very firmly and totally differently to any other horse I have trained or handled in the past. So I think people on both sides of this argument could one day find themselves with a horse that forces them to reassess their whole training philosophy. And I don't mean abandon it, just be prepared to change it for the rare equine that it really does not suit.


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## PolarSkye (13 April 2014)

Wagtail said:



			I am actually not on either side of the fence on this one, because as I have said before, with horses it is just not as simple as one size fits all. We have to look at the individual and adapt our training accordingly. I used the example before of the two year old at my yard. He has challenged me more than any other horse ever has and I treat him very very firmly and totally differently to any other horse I have trained or handled in the past. So I think people on both sides of this argument could one day find themselves with a horse that forces them to reassess their whole training philosophy. And I don't mean abandon it, just be prepared to change it for the rare equine that it really does not suit.
		
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And by this post I assume you think I believe that there is a one size fits all approach to horsemanship . . . I don't!  That is the the bedrock of my objection to the OP's approach/philosophy . . . so perhaps, after all this, we agree!

P


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## Wagtail (13 April 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			And by this post I assume you think I believe that there is a one size fits all approach to horsemanship . . . and that is the the bedrock of my objection to the OP's approach/philosophy . . . so perhaps, after all this, we agree!

P
		
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Yes, we could well agree.

To clarify, I think the OP is in danger of thinking that her approach to training horses is the right one and that it would be applied to every horse. I also think that too many assumptions have been made by those objecting to her ways. Because it might just be that her horses actually are suited to her ways. Without seeing them ourselves we do not know. But she should be aware that what works for her horses may not work for others and could even be highly dangerous. But she is young, and no doubt she will learn from her mistakes.


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## doriangrey (13 April 2014)

Urban Horse said:



			You see this is why my horses and I tend to keep a low profile in the world. Weve had no end of folk fall for the charms of the mares especially, until that is, they find out how they were trained to become the gentle co-operative creatures they are. No boundaries they say in a horrified tone of voice, as though it had suddenly been revealed that the mares were the stars if the Alien movies, and had the ability to spit acid and kill humans in no end of unpleasant ways.

The reason behind their training was simple; I have tried to indicate in previous postings that violence in horses is comparatively rare, and that the ranking system that we put so much credence on in our work with horses, has very little meaning to them. If you think about it, horses are one of the most prolific breeders on the planet, and in some areas feral horses are becoming a problem for farmers and stock breeders, even in areas where there is natural predation of herd members. Now, if horses were to be continually bickering, with power struggles within the herd, we might be inclined to think that they would become easy prey, far more bothered about internal politics that the approaching danger. If we take the view that the herd is settled, co-operative and far more interested in alerting each other to approaching danger, then we start to make sense of why, despite predation, feral horse numbers increase alarmingly in some areas.

So, working with that as a starting point, that horses are by nature polite and happier in a settled situation, they were allowed to set their own boundaries when in our company. They have applied the rules about how close they should stand, whether they should put their mouths on us, and when being led how far away they should be or how far in front or behind. We dont listen to those who tell us that in doing so were allowing the horses to dominate us, for the simple reasons that firstly they arent, and secondly, horses dont feel the need to dominate. What they do feel the need for however, is survival they will do whatever it takes to stay alive, and its this need and resultant behaviour that often leads to horses being unfairly labelled or branded as un-cooperative or badly behaved.

With that survival instinct in mind, and applying one of the earliest lessons passed down to me years ago that If you give a horse an escape route, chances are hell never need to use it. If you dont give a horse and escape route, chances are hell use most of his brain trying to find it., we have found that giving them the freedom to choose their boundaries, and working with them when they are loose and have the ability to move away from situations that are initially unsettling (even if they dont choose to use that ability) they absorb knowledge far faster than we can teach. 

The only drawback is that you can never get rid of them. Every move you make on their territory has to be accompanied, every fence repair or water tank filling is checked and pooper picking becomes somewhat of a farce. Such is the depth of the relationship that they even try to pooper into the barrow. Oh, and allogrooming often means being late home for tea.
		
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I'm glad you posted again urban horse (sorry about my faux pas about your username before).  I am so intrigued about the acceptance of your methods compared to the OP, although there are a couple of posters who are open-minded enough to see the connection.  Do you think we are so ingrained to believe that our horses want the upper hand that we misinterpret their behaviour towards us as violence in order to get their own way?  Here's a thing, my young pony puts her ears back when I put her feed bucket in her stable or I call her outside for her hay.  I don't care too much, it's her food and I don't want it - I leave her to it, but there are a lot of people who will make a horse back off for their food if they 'threaten' for it.  I've thought about it I must admit that if I let her 'warn' me off I'm setting myself up for more problems - so is she pushing the boundaries or am I misinterpretating her behaviour?  The most I have done is withhold it until she looks away and then I feed her but is that the same as letting her choose her own boundaries?


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## Fides (13 April 2014)

doriangrey said:



			I'm glad you posted again urban horse (sorry about my faux pas about your username before).  I am so intrigued about the acceptance of your methods compared to the OP, although there are a couple of posters who are open-minded enough to see the connection.  Do you think we are so ingrained to believe that our horses want the upper hand that we misinterpret their behaviour towards us as violence in order to get their own way?  Here's a thing, my young pony puts her ears back when I put her feed bucket in her stable or I call her outside for her hay.  I don't care too much, it's her food and I don't want it - I leave her to it, but there are a lot of people who will make a horse back off for their food if they 'threaten' for it.  I've thought about it I must admit that if I let her 'warn' me off I'm setting myself up for more problems - so is she pushing the boundaries or am I misinterpretating her behaviour?  The most I have done is withhold it until she looks away and then I feed her but is that the same as letting her choose her own boundaries?
		
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My horses wouldn't ever lay their ears back at me to gain access to food - they wait patiently until I 'release' the food. I don't ask them to wait, they just do. If they laid their ears back at me I would be making them
Back off in sharp shrift. 

BUT I have never needed to do this and doubt I ever will as my horse respect me enough to know not to challenge me. My OH however ended up unceremoniously dumped on his arse when my mare. Challenged him for a net when he was tying it up-lots more handling lessons for my non-horsey OH...


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## Dry Rot (13 April 2014)

I think the OP is in her early teens? In that case she is, in the eyes of the law, still an infant and not responsible for the safety of the younger children. I think I'm right in saying that that responsibility will rest with the YO or the parents or which ever adult is supervising (or supposed to  be).

Just trying to unemotionally state the facts and I stand to be corrected! We all know what the right thing to do would be so I'll not state the obvious.


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## doriangrey (13 April 2014)

Fides said:



			My horses wouldn't ever lay their ears back at me to gain access to food - they wait patiently until I 'release' the food. I don't ask them to wait, they just do. If they laid their ears back at me I would be making them
Back off in sharp shrift. 

BUT I have never needed to do this and doubt I ever will as my horse respect me enough to know not to challenge me. My OH however ended up unceremoniously dumped on his arse when my mare. Challenged him for a net when he was tying it up-lots more handling lessons for my non-horsey OH...
		
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This was an unhandled 14 month old filly I bought in August and she's never tried to bite or kick since I've had her - she's very maneagable.  Your post is typical of the kind of response I would expect without me trying to be disrespectful of you.  Yes - she puts her ears back but I can stand next to her whilst she is eating, that's my dilemma.  You set 'boundaries' Fides - but UH does not, why/what is different and if UH's horses are respectful of all humans - but yours are not which is the method that works?


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## Fides (13 April 2014)

doriangrey said:



			This was an unhandled 14 month old filly I bought in August and she's never tried to bite or kick since I've had her - she's very maneagable.  Your post is typical of the kind of response I would expect without me trying to be disrespectful of you.  Yes - she puts her ears back but I can stand next to her whilst she is eating, that's my dilemma.  You set 'boundaries' Fides - but UH does not, why/what is different and if UH's horses are respectful of all humans - but yours are not which is the method that works?
		
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But OP had said that her yard 'buddies' have issues with her horse so obviously OPs method is not working,.. My example was given to illustrate how a horse may behave with someone unhorsey ie my OH. Anyone horsey, my horses are totally compliant. Just adding also that my boy was only gelded about 6 months ago and the fact that my non-horsey OH can handle him safely speaks volumes...


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## doriangrey (13 April 2014)

Fides said:



			But OP had said that her yard 'buddies' have issues with her horse so obviously OPs method is not working,.. My example was given to illustrate how a horse may behave with someone unhorsey ie my OH. Anyone horsey, my horses are totally compliant. Just adding also that my boy was only gelded about 6 months ago and the fact that my non-horsey OH can handle him safely speaks volumes...
		
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I think the OP said that they had issues with how she was training the horse not the horse itself (first post).  I'm not having a go at you Fides, I want to know how not setting boundaries can be so effective - it's an honest ask because I would love to improve myself.  My best and most gentle horse was a stallion.


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## Fides (13 April 2014)

doriangrey said:



			My best and most gentle horse was a stallion.
		
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They're special aren't they? Totally different experience!


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## doriangrey (13 April 2014)

Fides said:



			They're special aren't they? Totally different experience!
		
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Agree, amazing and resourceful.  I feel really priviliged to have been in a position to own one


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## Fides (13 April 2014)

doriangrey said:



			Agree, amazing and resourceful.  I feel really priviliged to have been in a position to own one 

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Me too - though I ended up having to geld him under
Pressure of others  he wasn't an issue, the neighbouring farm's mares
field was - they were trying to jump in for a bit


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## Urban Horse (14 April 2014)

Wagtail said:



			I am actually not on either side of the fence on this one, because as I have said before, with horses it is just not as simple as one size fits all. We have to look at the individual and adapt our training accordingly. I used the example before of the two year old at my yard. He has challenged me more than any other horse ever has and I treat him very very firmly and totally differently to any other horse I have trained or handled in the past. So I think people on both sides of this argument could one day find themselves with a horse that forces them to reassess their whole training philosophy. And I don't mean abandon it, just be prepared to change it for the rare equine that it really does not suit.
		
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Luckily, over the years I have met and retrained many horses that have challenged.... but almost without exception their problems were due to previous handling and training, not their true nature. It is through those horses (for which I hold a lot of gratitude and affection for the lessons they gave) that I now have the skills, confidence and experience to treat all horses in the manner that I do. Sadly I still know more than a few owners who seem to think there is a great deal of kudos in owning/training what is seen as a 'difficult' horse. The human ego and horses should really be kept well apart.  

I once asked a friend of mine, a US based trainer, if his methods worked on all horses. He simply replied "Do my methods work on every horse, I don't know I haven't met every horse, but they've worked with every horse I've met."


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## Wagtail (14 April 2014)

Urban Horse said:



			Luckily, over the years I have met and retrained many horses that have challenged.... but almost without exception their problems were due to previous handling and training, not their true nature. It is through those horses (for which I hold a lot of gratitude and affection for the lessons they gave) that I now have the skills, confidence and experience to treat all horses in the manner that I do. Sadly I still know more than a few owners who seem to think there is a great deal of kudos in owning/training what is seen as a 'difficult' horse. The human ego and horses should really be kept well apart.  

I once asked a friend of mine, a US based trainer, if his methods worked on all horses. He simply replied "Do my methods work on every horse, I don't know I haven't met every horse, but they've worked with every horse I've met."
		
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The two year old at my yard was born here. He was spoilt rotten by his owner with treats until he became an absolute thug. Now had he been a different nature, this may not have happened. She has owned his mother from a youngster and done the same thing with her and she's fine, and so have all the horses she has owned before her. He is good as gold for me now. But as soon as his owner walks on the yard he's a different horse.


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## Wagtail (14 April 2014)

When this colt was born (the now 2 year old I have been referring to), we were the first creatures he saw along with his mother. Once he had gained his footing and good balance after a couple of days he proceeded to purposely kick us every time we went to handle him. And it hurt! He then started to kick his mother, getting her square in the belly a couple of times. Whereby she chastised him quite firmly with a controlled but hard kick from her own hindleg, and from that moment on he has never kicked either human or horse again. But he moved on to biting, which many foals do, but he continued and it was really meant, ears back, the lot. We therefore had him gelded at only 5 and a half months hoping that would calm him, but it didn't. He stands at 16.2hh now and is two this month. He progressed to trapping his owner in his stable and rearing at her if she tried to go for the door. I had to rescue her a few times! Now this horse is going to be around 18 hands and I have therefore had to change my way of handling him (have done for the past year). If you so much as tried to scratch or stroke him he would pin his ears and try to bite you. Now, due to firm handling and very black and white boundaries, he will let me do absolutely anything with him. His whole attitude has altered. He has become the most affectionate and delightful individual who now not only keeps his ears relaxed when I stroke or scratch him, but who nuzzles me and enjoys a cuddle.


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## Nugget La Poneh (14 April 2014)




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## diamonddogs (14 April 2014)

It's all about good leadership rather than dominance - my horse will follow me the vast majority of the time, because she trusts me. There might be situations she's unsure about, in which case I get the look that says "OK, I'm with you - for now. We'll go past that flappy haylage bag, but if it wants to eat us, you're on your own mate - I'm gone".

She's good with words as well - the one that cracks everyone up is hands held up and "All gone!" when there are no treats, but she doesn't ask again once I've done that!

Seriously though, you simply HAVE to teach basic manners. If I couldn't get to the yard for any reason, I don't to be worrying about whether the person turning out my horse is going to be killed or maimed, specially if I'm having an occasional well earned lie-in.

My mare will walk happily down the field at my side and only has her lead rope clipped on when we get to the gate - I'd never really thought about the herding thing before, but I guess it's OK for us as I would never allow her to walk behind me, either restrained or loose. And if she's worried about walking past something scary I always pray there's nobody about to hear me telling the object what a lovely plastic barrel (or whatever) it is, and watch me stroke it! Works for us- and she'll always have a sniff if she sees I don't mind it.

I personally think my horse has beautiful manners, but if anyone happened to make a negative comment about her behaviour when I wasn't around, I'd listen and ask for details because none of us know everything and there's rarely a day goes by I don't learn something new (see above para re herding!). You can't use the same training methods on every horse and neither can you use the same training methods every day on the same horse, and we should all be open to help and advice.


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## Wagtail (14 April 2014)

diamonddogs said:



			You can't use the same training methods on every horse and neither can you use the same training methods every day on the same horse, and we should all be open to help and advice.
		
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That is exactly what I think. Good horse people are flexible and always learning and willing to adapt. You may well have a philosophy which has worked well for you for tens of years, only to meet a horse that needs a different approach. There are certain things which I think apply in ALL situations with horses though, and those are:

Remain calm with low energy (unless horse needs more energy!)
Be consistent - so the horse can quickly learn and understand.
Set the horse up to succeed - avoid situations where he is set up to fail
Do not do battle with the horse.


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## Annagain (14 April 2014)

They're all different and react to humans in different ways. My boy, without consistent, firm handling, will take mickey royally. He'd never kick or bite but will drag a handler anywhere he feels like if they're not right by his shoulder with one hand immediately behind his nose, so I, and anybody who handles him, know to do it properly and have our wits about us. This does not mean using force, just insisting on his attention being on you and not that lovely bit of grass over there.  My share horse - at the same yard with the same people so with the same experiences will follow anybody who asks him to anywhere and you can do anything to him. He is therefore treated very differently and allowed to amble around at the end of the rope. He's 17hh and my 4yr old (but tiny for her age, more like a 2 1/2 yr old) niece leads him around the yard...she's not allowed within 2 metres of my boy unless someone is carrying her. He's not nasty but will walk all over an adult let alone a little one. 
They're the same to ride - A needs to be told what to do in no uncertain terms, you just hint at M that maybe he'd like to consider it in the next few minutes and it's done. Neither is unhappy with this. In fact A is much happier with clarity, he gets easily confused and upset if he doesn't know what you're asking him to do. He's just much thicker skinned (headed?) so doesn't get polite requests.


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## Urban Horse (14 April 2014)

Wagtail said:



			That is exactly what I think. Good horse people are flexible and always learning and willing to adapt. You may well have a philosophy which has worked well for you for tens of years, only to meet a horse that needs a different approach. There are certain things which I think apply in ALL situations with horses though, and those are:

Remain calm with low energy (unless horse needs more energy!)
Be consistent - so the horse can quickly learn and understand.
Set the horse up to succeed - avoid situations where he is set up to fail
Do not do battle with the horse.
		
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I hope this link works, it's a brief low def extract from a film made for my grandaughter showing her Nanny and Grandad's horses and their lives. This is younger mare during some of her 'training'. Of course it's a cheat... the trailer was left on her paddock; initially it was frightening, then an object of interest, and finally a toy. The extract showing her walking on the tarp was a cheat too... she helped carry the poles and the tarp, and was on it (her first time) before it was fully spread out. The last part shows her approaching a fluttering bag, in order to gain a reward. You see we do follow your 'rules of horsemanship'.   

I also have a lot of photos of a group of feral Koinks interacting with man made objects too, just for the joy of exploration.


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## Ladyinred (14 April 2014)

Urban Horse, do you realise you have left all your Photobucket for everyone to view, and not just the video (which won't play for me!) Nice horses though!


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## Urban Horse (15 April 2014)

Ladyinred said:



			Urban Horse, do you realise you have left all your Photobucket for everyone to view, and not just the video (which won't play for me!) Nice horses though!
		
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Thanks for the warning, but my account is all set to public anyway, as is my Flickr account, so anyone can see anything that's on there if they feel the need. The point of the video link was simply to let people know that our (OH and stepdaughter are involved too) horses, although being trained in a different way to other people's, still undergo the same things... loading and confidence building exercises that increase the bond and relationship between us. If you don't 'push the boundaries' you neither learn nor grow, but some are afraid to do this as they belive that their horse will no longer 'love' them. Of course, in truth, the opposite is true... Once your horse finds that he can trust you to help him through what he feels to be new and difficult, the relationship between you will grow. 

I try not to speak with any degree of 'authority' about things that I can't or haven't done myself.


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## Wagtail (15 April 2014)

Urban Horse said:



			Once your horse finds that he can trust you to help him through what he feels to be new and difficult, the relationship between you will grow.
		
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Completely agree, that trust is the key. There is no point in forcing a horse to do something, it does nothing for your relationship with them. Of course, some people do not want a relationship with their horse (not aimed at anyone on this thread), they just want a 'machine' to carry out their sport. When it breaks they get a new one.


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## Goldenstar (15 April 2014)

Trust is key , the horse trusts you to be the leader .
Those competition machines have bonds with their riders too look what happened when the Germans thought it would easy to make  Totilas go better .
His bond with his previous rider was visible and the lack of bond with his new one was also clear .


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## Wagtail (15 April 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Trust is key , the horse trusts you to be the leader .
Those competition machines have bonds with their riders too look what happened when the Germans thought it would easy to make  Totilas go better .
His bond with his previous rider was visible and the lack of bond with his new one was also clear .
		
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I agree, which is why I said 'some' people. I did not mean everyone who competes, even at high levels.


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