# Tips to improve recall of an unruly Husky?! Help!



## RCP Equestrian (10 May 2013)

As title really!

I have a Husky bitch, just turned one. We got her at 7 months from a private home who had no time to give her the exercise/attention she needed. 

We have our own place (yard) so we just let our dogs roam about for most of the day and they're locked away at night. 

Although she has improved a lot since being with us her recall is c**p or non existant!  she often runs away and has been sneaking out the fencing and tootling up the road round the housing estate. Which is highly annoying as we have ample amounts of fields to run about in but even moreso the fact that cars go pretty fast down there and I'm scared she gets hit or pinched  

My other dogs are good at recall, Chi and Chi x Shitzu never really leave you and my Wolfdog pup is very good, unless the Husky has kidnapped him and they go off on their travels together!

Nothing tempts her back at all, tried their food (Natural Instinct) treats, cheese, ham etc etc and she just ignores you or stares at you then runs off! Once she's out she cant be caught until she wants to be caught. Shes such a loving, friendly dog when shes with you, loves kisses and cuddles and any sort of attention but only on her terms and when she wants it. She was spayed not to long ago and she has calmed down since and doesnt stray as much but still not how I want her to be. 

Wolfdog on his own and sometimes with her is brill, will leave other dogs and come back to you but is getting slightly worse because of hanging around with her  they both ran away for about an hour yesterday and we were shouting for ages for them, they did come back and gave them cuddles, pats and treats so its not as if they're getting wrong when they return (as much as you want to I know its reverse psychology for dogs ) I'm just worried something will happen when they're off galavanting, she is very switched on but Wolfdog not so much! 

Any tips welcome, feel like I've tried everything but there must be something out there that will work! 

X


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## _jac_ (10 May 2013)

I don't know much ( or anything ) about huskies except that all the breeders/ enthusiasts say they need to be off lead in a secure area only.   These dogs are bred to run, and clearly that is what yours has mind.   There is a very good chance this dog will be the cause of an accident if you do not provide this need to run with a safe outlet


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## Spudlet (10 May 2013)

We have a husky at training, who has been with us since she was a puppy. Her owners are great - you can tell they do all the homework, really put their backs into it.

Does this dog recall? No. She was doing ok, but as she has grown she has got bolder, and less likely to return. It's perfectly normal for the breed, and exactly as expected. We still do recall (after a fashion) with her because we're in a safe environment, but only under certain conditions - all the other dogs come out for a minute, only in the double-fenced arena, and last of all, as it is inevitable that it will take time to get her back. Really, it's more of a mad run with a return at the end than a formal recall. And the reason she does that is a lot of hard work from her owners. They do not let her off the lead in public - she is going to be a cani-cross type dog, as fortunately her owners are keen runners. So she has a good life.

Huskies are escape-artists, wanderers and hunters - someone on here, who I am sure will pop up on this thread, has two (clearly she is bonkers) and she can tell you all about it! You need to make sure she is securely fenced in at all times, and keep her attached to you by lead or long-line when out, or I am afraid you are likely to lose her at some point soon.

Sorry, I'm sure this is not the answer you had hoped for. But it is an honest opinion.

eta I give that example to show that it's not necessarily that your training is deficient here - you're playing with a stacked deck from day one because you are trying to go against generations of breeding for independent, tough dogs! Dogs that would once upon a time have been let to themselves all summer to scavenge and hunt for food, and only back in the winter to work pulling sleds, I believe. What I'm saying is, some things you can train, but some things you have to learn to manage instead. And I do think husky recall goes in the latter category.


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## CorvusCorax (10 May 2013)

Look up what huskies are bred for.

They are bred to run, and run, and run, all day. If that is not provided for them by their owners, they will do it for themselves.

They are working dogs, they do not make good pets and while some individual dogs recall well, it's not in their genetics, as a rule, to want to be social, near people and hang around their own home all day. They want to run and to jump and to dig and to howl.

Rather than fit a square peg into a round hole, I would try providing an outlet for her by going joking, biking with her onlead (once she is a few months older and is fully grown to avoid too much impact on the joints) and expending her energy that way.
Look up Cani-X or Bikejoring.
If you don't have the time and energy to do that, as mentioned, keep her in a secure area or dog run when she is not with you.


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## Nikki J (10 May 2013)

You've got yourself a typical husky there!  They are social pack animals - which means they want to be with their "pack" - ie their human family - 24/7. she is following her natural wolf instincts to explore, hunt etc., but of course you simply cannot allow her to take herself off like this.  She is not being naughty when she slips under or over the fencing, she is merely following her instincts.  All northern breeds, being closer to the wolf than most other breeds, are supremely intelligent, easily bored, and really do not have much desire to please their owners in any way - especially where it comes to recall.  which is why most husky and mal breeders say you should never let them off the lead except in a totally secure area.

I don't actually agree with this - with hard work, consistency and dedication you CAN train a reliable recall, but it is tens of times harder than with "ordinary" dogs.  Certainly my experience with northern breeds is that they are rarely turned on by titbits.  The most intransigent of them can never be trained a reliable recall, unless you are prepared to use an e collar which most people are not.  We have 2 mal crosses - 1, the entire male, has a superb recall, and is an excellent all round dog.  We have never had issues with him really.  He was rescued about 5 or 6 years ago.  His kennel mate, a castrated male, who we rescued nearly 3 years ago, was a completely different kettle of fish.  We got absolutely nowhere with recall training, and ended up resorting to an e collar.  He now has an excellent recall and can reliably be let off the lead whenever we want.

It may be that your bitch does fall into the "intransigent" category, but if she does and you really feel - like me - that you confine a dog like a husky to a lead the whole time is totally unacceptable - then you may need to consider the e collar route - having tried everything else first of course.  As you probably already know huskies have a huge prey drive, so it is not going to be easy but if you are determined you may well be able to achieve a good recall - without resorting to the e collar.


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## RCP Equestrian (10 May 2013)

_jac_ said:



			I don't know much ( or anything ) about huskies except that all the breeders/ enthusiasts say they need to be off lead in a secure area only.   These dogs are bred to run, and clearly that is what yours has mind.   There is a very good chance this dog will be the cause of an accident if you do not provide this need to run with a safe outlet 

Click to expand...

She has only been off the yard 3 times since she has been with us, I got those zappy collars so she would get a zap if she looked to be eying up the fence  this did work (ish) but her hair is so thick it was hardly touching her!  the yard is pretty safe and is fenced all the way round (owner has dogs so always been dog safe) just not Husky safe!! 



Spudlet said:



			We have a husky at training, who has been with us since she was a puppy. Her owners are great - you can tell they do all the homework, really put their backs into it.

Does this dog recall? No. She was doing ok, but as she has grown she has got bolder, and less likely to return. It's perfectly normal for the breed, and exactly as expected. We still do recall (after a fashion) with her because we're in a safe environment, but only under certain conditions - all the other dogs come out for a minute, only in the double-fenced arena, and last of all, as it is inevitable that it will take time to get her back. Really, it's more of a mad run with a return at the end than a formal recall. And the reason she does that is a lot of hard work from her owners. They do not let her off the lead in public - she is going to be a cani-cross type dog, as fortunately her owners are keen runners. So she has a good life.

Huskies are escape-artists, wanderers and hunters - someone on here, who I am sure will pop up on this thread, has two (clearly she is bonkers) and she can tell you all about it! You need to make sure she is securely fenced in at all times, and keep her attached to you by lead or long-line when out, or I am afraid you are likely to lose her at some point soon.

Sorry, I'm sure this is not the answer you had hoped for. But it is an honest opinion.
		
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Thank you! I know her recall is never going to be of police dog standard haha but all I want is for her to come back when asked, she doesnt have to come and heal or sit to attention and I know her breed never will  but just an acknowledgment of the fact you have said her name would be nice!


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## Nikki J (10 May 2013)

As a PS, I forgot to say that huskies are amazing escape artists!  they can go under, through or over the most seemingly impossible obstacles.  A husky could escape from a tennis court by climbing up and over the tennis court fencing - which must be at least 10 or 12 foot!  They are incredibly good diggers - my old boy could dig a 2 foot deep hole in our lawn in well less than 2 minutes.  They can squeeze through incredibly small gaps - and then can jump from a standstill 5' without touching the top of the obstacle.


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## CorvusCorax (10 May 2013)

I would suggest if you want to persist with the e-collar you buy a good one (not a cheapo one from a pet chain store) and seek out a trainer experienced in their use to teach you how and when to use it. Timing is everything and you can ruin a dog as quickly as you can fix it.
Also you need to be WITH the dog to train this. Expecting a dog like a husky to suit itself while you are busy is a bit of an ask, TBH x

E-collar use is not something that can be advised properly over a forum without seeing the dog in front of you.


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## RCP Equestrian (10 May 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			Look up what huskies are bred for.

They are bred to run, and run, and run, all day. If that is not provided for them by their owners, they will do it for themselves.

They are working dogs, they do not make good pets and while some individual dogs recall well, it's not in their genetics, as a rule, to want to be social, near people and hang around their own home all day. They want to run and to jump and to dig and to howl.

Rather than fit a square peg into a round hole, I would try providing an outlet for her by going joking, biking with her onlead (once she is a few months older and is fully grown to avoid too much impact on the joints) and expending her energy that way.
Look up Cani-X or Bikejoring.
If you don't have the time and energy to do that, as mentioned, keep her in a secure area or dog run when she is not with you.
		
Click to expand...




Nikki J said:



			You've got yourself a typical husky there!  They are social pack animals - which means they want to be with their "pack" - ie their human family - 24/7. she is following her natural wolf instincts to explore, hunt etc., but of course you simply cannot allow her to take herself off like this.  She is not being naughty when she slips under or over the fencing, she is merely following her instincts.  All northern breeds, being closer to the wolf than most other breeds, are supremely intelligent, easily bored, and really do not have much desire to please their owners in any way - especially where it comes to recall.  which is why most husky and mal breeders say you should never let them off the lead except in a totally secure area.

I don't actually agree with this - with hard work, consistency and dedication you CAN train a reliable recall, but it is tens of times harder than with "ordinary" dogs.  Certainly my experience with northern breeds is that they are rarely turned on by titbits.  The most intransigent of them can never be trained a reliable recall, unless you are prepared to use an e collar which most people are not.  We have 2 mal crosses - 1, the entire male, has a superb recall, and is an excellent all round dog.  We have never had issues with him really.  He was rescued about 5 or 6 years ago.  His kennel mate, a castrated male, who we rescued nearly 3 years ago, was a completely different kettle of fish.  We got absolutely nowhere with recall training, and ended up resorting to an e collar.  He now has an excellent recall and can reliably be let off the lead whenever we want.

It may be that your bitch does fall into the "intransigent" category, but if she does and you really feel - like me - that you confine a dog like a husky to a lead the whole time is totally unacceptable - then you may need to consider the e collar route - having tried everything else first of course.  As you probably already know huskies have a huge prey drive, so it is not going to be easy but if you are determined you may well be able to achieve a good recall - without resorting to the e collar.
		
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Thanks guys! I forgot to say I have started running with her (fit for summer ) and she does enjoy it. I run around the common a few times a week, with her on a lead of course, and she really enjoys herself. 

When the snow came she used to pull our water carrier up to the fields for the colts  and she's out on the yard from 9am - 8pm when we finish off the yard. 

Its just never enough for her! Haha, which I totally understand, thats the type of dog she is and she's not being naughty, I just want to have a bit more control over her, she has all the freedom she wants and most days she is fine and just stays around the yard but the odd time she just gets carried away. 

They're all so funny to watch playing together, running around the fields and she pretends she's a rabbit or something with the Wolfdog chasing and the Chi x Shitzu going as fast as he can to keep up 

Thinking of getting the perimiter (sorry bad spelling!) wire thing where if they go to cross they get zapped, anyone have any experiences of it? Will it work or will her intelligence take over and she'll realise she will only get zapped once then she's FREEEE!


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## Nikki J (10 May 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			She has only been off the yard 3 times since she has been with us, I got those zappy collars so she would get a zap if she looked to be eying up the fence  this did work (ish) but her hair is so thick it was hardly touching her!  the yard is pretty safe and is fenced all the way round (owner has dogs so always been dog safe) just not Husky safe!! 

Thank you! I know her recall is never going to be of police dog standard haha but all I want is for her to come back when asked, she doesnt have to come and heal or sit to attention and I know her breed never will  but just an acknowledgment of the fact you have said her name would be nice! 

Click to expand...

OK, that's good, you are e collar mindful!  You are not using it correctly though.  If she is double-coated, or thick coated, then you need to make sure that the prongs have good contact with her skin.  To do this, you need to put the collar round her neck and wiggle it from left to right until you have a good contact, and then you need to do it up tightly.  Not so tightly that the poor dog cannot breathe, but tighter than the normal collar.

Do not zap her if she is just eyeing up the fence.  The time to apply a gentle zap, very gentle, is when she makes the first break towards actually jumping or going over the fence (her having ignored your commands to come).  Timing is absolutely everything.  If she ignores the first gentle nick, then up the anti and give her more of a zap.  Both occasions you MUST at the same time issue the command "COME!" or your word of preference - it must be one word only, and do not say the dog's name.  Never use the dog's name in conjunction with the correction - the idea would be to call the dog ... "Ben!  Come!"  If an instant response is not forthcoming, you could warn with a "vibrate", repeating the word "Come!".  Still no response, then a nick and so on.  Never, ever nick or zap at the same time as using the dog's name.  The instance she comes away - not necessarily comes to you, but comes in your direction, heap huge verbal praise ... "Good girl, good girl ..." and say her name in the most positive, happy way you can.  She may not come right to your side, this is a northern breed thing - as you say, they are never going to be police dogs - but keep encouraging her to "Come!" right to you so that you can pat her, ruffle her ears etc.  With e collars it is all about timing and the appropriate use.  You cannot just slap a collar on a dog, give it a couple of zaps, and expect it to respond.  This is the road to disaster - you must do your product research, as in everything.

But my personal advice would be to try more conventional training before resorting to the e collar.


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## _jac_ (10 May 2013)

Please, if you go e collar route get a qualified dog behaviourist to teach you how to use it .   Wrong timing can cause more problems than it would solve.


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## Nikki J (10 May 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			Thanks guys! I forgot to say I have started running with her (fit for summer ) and she does enjoy it. I run around the common a few times a week, with her on a lead of course, and she really enjoys herself. 

When the snow came she used to pull our water carrier up to the fields for the colts  and she's out on the yard from 9am - 8pm when we finish off the yard. 

Its just never enough for her! Haha, which I totally understand, thats the type of dog she is and she's not being naughty, I just want to have a bit more control over her, she has all the freedom she wants and most days she is fine and just stays around the yard but the odd time she just gets carried away. 

They're all so funny to watch playing together, running around the fields and she pretends she's a rabbit or something with the Wolfdog chasing and the Chi x Shitzu going as fast as he can to keep up 

Thinking of getting the perimiter (sorry bad spelling!) wire thing where if they go to cross they get zapped, anyone have any experiences of it? Will it work or will her intelligence take over and she'll realise she will only get zapped once then she's FREEEE! 

Click to expand...

Yup - the perimeter wire idea is a good one, and it works!  Of course, as with horses, sometimes they will be prepared to go through the pain to escape (I had a randy gelding who would grit his teeth and gallop through the electric fencing to get to the mares!!), but I believe this is a rarity and with her being a bitch, esp if she is spayed, or you are going to spay her, it will be virtually impossible for her to be this bold.  It sounds great that you go jogging with her - you will never tire her out though!!  We found the best thing was to bike along the canals with our 2 off lead - so there was no chance of us ending up in the drink - and because we can potentially motor much faster, this stopped them running away.  All of a sudden, alpha male and alpha female have sprouted wings and can keep up with the wolf pack!!  Under these circumstances, they would be very reluctant to run off - your bitch will be too desperate trying to keep up with you!  Such exercise WILL tire her out if you go far enough.  When she gets hot, you can stop, water her and allow her to jump in the canal for a cooling swim and attempt to catch some ducks!  She will have great fun swimming after them, but they will never be in any danger.


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## Nikki J (10 May 2013)

_jac_ said:



			Please, if you go e collar route get a qualified dog behaviourist to teach you how to use it .   Wrong timing can cause more problems than it would solve.
		
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Absolutely ... I believe I have already said that timing is everything!


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## RCP Equestrian (10 May 2013)

Nikki J said:



			OK, that's good, you are e collar mindful!  You are not using it correctly though.  If she is double-coated, or thick coated, then you need to make sure that the prongs have good contact with her skin.  To do this, you need to put the collar round her neck and wiggle it from left to right until you have a good contact, and then you need to do it up tightly.  Not so tightly that the poor dog cannot breathe, but tighter than the normal collar.

Do not zap her if she is just eyeing up the fence.  The time to apply a gentle zap, very gentle, is when she makes the first break towards actually jumping or going over the fence (her having ignored your commands to come).  Timing is absolutely everything.  If she ignores the first gentle nick, then up the anti and give her more of a zap.  Both occasions you MUST at the same time issue the command "COME!" or your word of preference - it must be one word only, and do not say the dog's name.  Never use the dog's name in conjunction with the correction - the idea would be to call the dog ... "Ben!  Come!"  If an instant response is not forthcoming, you could warn with a "vibrate", repeating the word "Come!".  Still no response, then a nick and so on.  Never, ever nick or zap at the same time as using the dog's name.  The instance she comes away - not necessarily comes to you, but comes in your direction, heap huge verbal praise ... "Good girl, good girl ..." and say her name in the most positive, happy way you can.  She may not come right to your side, this is a northern breed thing - as you say, they are never going to be police dogs - but keep encouraging her to "Come!" right to you so that you can pat her, ruffle her ears etc.  With e collars it is all about timing and the appropriate use.  You cannot just slap a collar on a dog, give it a couple of zaps, and expect it to respond.  This is the road to disaster - you must do your product research, as in everything.

But my personal advice would be to try more conventional training before resorting to the e collar.
		
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Thanks Nikki J, very useful advice. Think I will have to pull the collars out again!  we have the longest prongs on them but maybe I didn't have it tight enough like you said. 

I know what you mean about timing, I would give her 2 chances to come back and if she ignored I would vibrate then if no luck I would zap, then she would just turn and look at you  I tend to shout "come on" but it it better to just shout the one word? 

Had dogs all my life, well trained ones so I do know a bit about training them but not an expert and its our first experience of this type of dog. She's the OH's bday present from me as he wanted one so much, even though I warned him what they were like and said I would be the one to end up training her....sure enough I was right!  love her to bits though, just want to have her under a bit more control!


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## Jools2345 (10 May 2013)

Spudlet said:



			Huskies are escape-artists, wanderers and hunters - someone on here, who I am sure will pop up on this thread, has two (clearly she is bonkers) and she can tell you all about it! You need to make sure she is securely fenced in at all times, and keep her attached to you by lead or long-line when out, or I am afraid you are likely to lose her at some point soon.

Sorry, I'm sure this is not the answer you had hoped for. But it is an honest opinion.

eta I give that example to show that it's not necessarily that your training is deficient here - you're playing with a stacked deck from day one because you are trying to go against generations of breeding for independent, tough dogs! Dogs that would once upon a time have been let to themselves all summer to scavenge and hunt for food, and only back in the winter to work pulling sleds, I believe. What I'm saying is, some things you can train, but some things you have to learn to manage instead. And I do think husky recall goes in the latter category.
		
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this


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## CorvusCorax (10 May 2013)

Echo Jac's sentiments (again) you need someone standing beside you watching what you and the dog are doing before proceeding with e-collar training.

Also, you've had her for three months and whilst I am not sure of the timing, she has had at most, three months of tanking off and having her own fun and self rewarding with no consequence apart from having an excellent time to herself. Her drive may be such that a pop on the neck will be worth fighting through in order to get that high reward of running free. It's not a failsafe. 

Also, if you are using food to train her, make sure she is hungry. She won't work for her food if she's already been fed. I hand feed my dog so that he knows all good things come from me, not a bowl. If he knows at the start or the end of the day, a bowl will be plonked on the floor or he can have a ball whenever her likes, then why would he do anything for me in order to get it?


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## Nikki J (10 May 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			Thanks Nikki J, very useful advice. Think I will have to pull the collars out again!  we have the longest prongs on them but maybe I didn't have it tight enough like you said. 

I know what you mean about timing, I would give her 2 chances to come back and if she ignored I would vibrate then if no luck I would zap, then she would just turn and look at you  I tend to shout "come on" but it it better to just shout the one word? 

Had dogs all my life, well trained ones so I do know a bit about training them but not an expert and its our first experience of this type of dog. She's the OH's bday present from me as he wanted one so much, even though I warned him what they were like and said I would be the one to end up training her....sure enough I was right!  love her to bits though, just want to have her under a bit more control!
		
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With that first actual zap, it sounds like you did not have the collar fitted properly.  It is very important to have an expert actually show you all this and how to use the collar, but there is also a lot of very good information on the internet.  For instance on the Dogtra e collar site, there is a man who is an expert - I think is name is Lou Castle - and my husband learned everything he knows from him and also from a dog behaviourist who uses e collars.

IMO it is better to shout one strong word ... such as "Come!"  Whatever it is you choose though is fine, as long as you stick to it 100%.  Now whenever we want Ben to come to bed, to move into the house from the conservatory, whatever, all we need do is to shout Come! in a commanding tone and he immediately gets up and obeys without question, even though he is not wearing the collar.  We actually are at the stage now when it doesn't matter if he is not wearing the collar at all, even on walks, his recall is that good, but my husband likes to be safe.


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## RCP Equestrian (10 May 2013)

Nikki J said:



			Yup - the perimeter wire idea is a good one, and it works!  Of course, as with horses, sometimes they will be prepared to go through the pain to escape (I had a randy gelding who would grit his teeth and gallop through the electric fencing to get to the mares!!), but I believe this is a rarity and with her being a bitch, esp if she is spayed, or you are going to spay her, it will be virtually impossible for her to be this bold.  It sounds great that you go jogging with her - you will never tire her out though!!  We found the best thing was to bike along the canals with our 2 off lead - so there was no chance of us ending up in the drink - and because we can potentially motor much faster, this stopped them running away.  All of a sudden, alpha male and alpha female have sprouted wings and can keep up with the wolf pack!!  Under these circumstances, they would be very reluctant to run off - your bitch will be too desperate trying to keep up with you!  Such exercise WILL tire her out if you go far enough.  When she gets hot, you can stop, water her and allow her to jump in the canal for a cooling swim and attempt to catch some ducks!  She will have great fun swimming after them, but they will never be in any danger.
		
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Wow that sounds like so much fun! I know thats something I've always known, we would come back from a run she will continue to tare around the fields being chased by the others, whereas I'm a huffing and puffing mess! 

I do evy her stamina!

She has been spayed and has improved since, she will come back much better and have a stroke and a rub then shes off again, whereas if she was next to you and you went to stroke her she'd just pee off!  

Will definitely get help for using the collars though, not worth me trying if I'm not doing it properly


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## Nikki J (10 May 2013)

CaveCanem said:



			Echo Jac's sentiments (again) you need someone standing beside you watching what you and the dog are doing before proceeding with e-collar training.

Also, you've had her for three months and whilst I am not sure of the timing, she has had at most, three months of tanking off and having her own fun and self rewarding with no consequence apart from having an excellent time to herself. Her drive may be such that a pop on the neck will be worth fighting through in order to get that high reward of running free. It's not a failsafe. 

Also, if you are using food to train her, make sure she is hungry. She won't work for her food if she's already been fed. I hand feed my dog so that he knows all good things come from me, not a bowl. If he knows at the start or the end of the day, a bowl will be plonked on the floor or he can have a ball whenever her likes, then why would he do anything for me in order to get it?
		
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Hmmm, I've yet to meet a northern breed who is triggered by food!  Our Ben had been running away and getting away with it for at least 2 YEARS when we adopted him - and yet we have trained a 100% recall, when everything else had failed.  3 months of running free is nothing, huskies are so intelligent you CAN overcome their natural instincts - you just need something to trip their trigger - it could be food, it could be praise, it could be a combination of these - in our case it is static electricity.  However, with Ben's father, who we had from 8 weeks, his recall although not right to your side, was good enough, and he never "ran and ran" like we were warned he would.  He was far too anxious to stay close to us.  He was with us 24/7 for the whole of his 10 years, except when he was in the vet.


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## CorvusCorax (10 May 2013)

The OP said she was trying to use food in her first post, my mention of food was in reference to that.

With respect, while you are obviously a great electrics trainer and have managed to over-ride generations of breeding for a single purpose, I think it is worth mentioning that not every handler and dog will have such perfect results and should prepare themselves for lots of stumbles along the way before they get to where they want to be.

I don't personally think there is 100% of *anything* in dog training (especially with huskies ) even the best in the world have their off days, but keep doing what you're doing if it is working


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## RCP Equestrian (10 May 2013)

No she's not food driven at all really, she's even been so involved in something out in the fields she doesnt even come back to the sound of her dish being banged! 

The Wolfdog however is a scavengier, his brain is his belly and if he hears or smells you have food he is glued to you!  but even if you don't have any tit bits on you, he'll quite happily come back to you just for a scratch or a cuddle. I've had him since he was 12 weeks though so I made sure he was going to be good from day one!

She didnt really have any training apart from "sit" where she came from and was treat like a child more than a dog so I think she wouldn't have been so bad had she been with us from puppy days.


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## blackcob (10 May 2013)

You will never get a 100% reliable recall from a husky (yup, there, I said it ) and allowing one free roam of a yard with only standard fencing will end badly. It may be weeks, months or even years but she will stand a good chance of being knocked down by a car, stolen or her life in danger for livestock worrying. 

IMO you either accept that and don't be surprised when it happens or you take steps to manage their behaviour and instinct by improving your fencing. This will probably involve restricting to a smaller area unless you're minted and can adequately fence the whole property. Bolt-together dog runs can be done fairly inexpensively, if you've got an equestrian yard there's probably some suitable spots with hardcore or concrete and you could easily put up a large area. Free running happens in a fenced paddock while you are directly supervising and there's a bazillion fun tiring things you can do with them on a lead which others have already gone into. 

I'm not going to get too deep into the electric collar or invisible fence debate except to say that I condemn their use in most situations and this is definitely one of them.


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## Booboos (10 May 2013)

It may be more prudent to keep the Husky on the lead because appart from anything else she is teaching your other dog bad habits. The Wolfdog is young and many dogs go through a 'teenager' phase usually between 18 months and 2.5 years where they seem to forget a lot of what they have learnt and you don't want him to lose his recall as well.


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## Alec Swan (10 May 2013)

I would suggest that before electric shock treatment is considered,  those who would plan to use them,  consider that if they aren't able to teach a dog,  either because of their own lack of experience,  or the dog's breed temperament,  then they should ask the question,  "Have I the right breed of dog",  which poses a second question,  "Why do people buy dogs which have natural and known tendencies towards what would appear to be delinquent behaviour,  and then come on here,  and ask for help"?  This isn't a direct attack against you,  RCP,  but the question is valid.

I've made my views obvious previously,  and have conceded that in the most experienced of hands,  there _"may"_ be a place for electric collars,  but then this raises the point that I've known some highly experienced trainers,  who've operated at National level,  in a variety of disciplines,  and don't know of one who's used an electric collar.

In the wrong hands,  an electric collar would be cruel,  and with certain breeds and types,  pain will all so often have the opposite effect than what's desired,  and as we whip a horse to make it go faster,  so pain created by electric shocks can drive the dog ever onwards.

I would,  as always,  advise others that they think very carefully before they experiment with electric collars.

Alec.


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## Spudlet (10 May 2013)

Crikey Moses, Alec and I agree on a dog training matter *faints*


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## stargirl88 (10 May 2013)

Agree with the majority of whats been said.

Just wanted to add RE recall - I'm assuming when the dog comes back, praise/treats or not (!) the roaming around ends completely and she's bound to the yard.

Sometimes dogs that aren't particularly food-motivated can still be reinforced by praise/food etc then a release to go on doing what they wanted to do - roam and run around! It is the ultimate reinforcer - particularly if it's part of the dogs genetics. (e.g - a 'Yes! go sniff!' command is sometimes useful for a spangle reward).

Hope that makes sense, I'm tired! I'm NOT saying that you call your husky from its great escape and release it out into the wild again  but think about what your dog is reinforced by, take control of it, and use it to your advantage.


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## Cinnamontoast (10 May 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			When the snow came she used to pull our water carrier up to the fields for the colts  and she's out on the yard from 9am - 8pm when we finish off the yard
		
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If she's only just turned one now, I'd be wary of letting her pull, bones may to yet be fully mature. I might be incorrect, but she was under a year when you had her doing this and I think huskies don't full mature structurally til 18 months?


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## blackcob (10 May 2013)

Spudlet said:



			Crikey Moses, Alec and I agree on a dog training matter *faints* 

Click to expand...

There's just been a shower of airborne swine.  

CT, sled dog people typically start huskies very early - rightly or wrongly, I'd rather err on the side of caution and stuck to 12 months+ for mine and 18+ for agility. Just saying that it wouldn't be considered unusual to have a sub 12 month old in harness with a team of experienced dogs for short runs, though that is a bit different to a solo dog pulling an unstable weight. 

They mature relatively quickly compared to say a mal and don't typically suffer from joint issues (certainly nothing inherited and even anecdotally apparently cruciate issues are rare, I got a defunct one as always ).


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## Cinnamontoast (10 May 2013)

I stand (sit, am tired after my walk!) corrected!

Are there recommended health tests for huskies?


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## blackcob (10 May 2013)

I dunno, like I say, big difference between a dog being nannied along in a team of eight for 15 minutes and a single dog pulling something that's sliding about everywhere in the snow, possibly without a decent harness on. 

Eyes are the biggie - hereditary cataracts, corneal dystrophy and progressive retinal atrophy are all known in the breed. I don't think there's a DNA test for all of these yet (SHCGB website seems to have gone wacko for the day) but they can all be screened for in adults, the breed club holds regular eye clinics. Hips should be done as a matter of course. The breed's mean score is very low and there's proof that it's decreased historically but the last figures I can find are from 1995 so it may be on the increase again. I've never encountered anyone who does elbows.


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## Nikki J (10 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			I would suggest that before electric shock treatment is considered,  those who would plan to use them,  consider that if they aren't able to teach a dog,  either because of their own lack of experience,  or the dog's breed temperament,  then they should ask the question,  "Have I the right breed of dog",  which poses a second question,  "Why do people buy dogs which have natural and known tendencies towards what would appear to be delinquent behaviour,  and then come on here,  and ask for help"?  This isn't a direct attack against you,  RCP,  but the question is valid.

I've made my views obvious previously,  and have conceded that in the most experienced of hands,  there _"may"_ be a place for electric collars,  but then this raises the point that I've known some highly experienced trainers,  who've operated at National level,  in a variety of disciplines,  and don't know of one who's used an electric collar.

In the wrong hands,  an electric collar would be cruel,  and with certain breeds and types,  pain will all so often have the opposite effect than what's desired,  and as we whip a horse to make it go faster,  so pain created by electric shocks can drive the dog ever onwards.

I would,  as always,  advise others that they think very carefully before they experiment with electric collars.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

I entirely agree with what you say that in the wrong hands, an e collar is cruel.  But you can apply that to any tool - a choke chain, a slip lead, anything.

In the right hands ... and I do not include my hands in that statement ... it is a very useful tool to enable dogs that normally would not be safe to let off the lead anywhere except the most secure of enclosures, to be exercised off the lead - something to me which is absolutely vital, as I consider it cruel to confine a dog to a lead for the whole of its life.  If I had to do that with my dogs, then I would quite simply not have them.  But I have at my fingertips, thanks to my hubby, a tool that enables my recalcitrant, intransigent boy Ben to run free, safe in the knowledge that we can recall him irrespective of whether he is pursuing a deer, a bitch, or just being plain naughty.  It never fails, even when he is not wearing the collar!  When he is commanded to Come, he comes!


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## RCP Equestrian (11 May 2013)

Sorry I abandoned you all haha cant quote on my phone

Some good advice from you all thank you! Definitely will seek more experienced help and will try the collars again (with help) 

I know she is teaching my wolfdog to be less obediant but only on the odd occasion, not every time. 

My only reasoning for asking for some recall tips is I just hate to think she has to spend all her days on a lead or tied on the yard when all the other dogs are allowed to tootle around. I have to say she has definitely improved since we got her and isnt half as bad as what she was but I think I've reached my experience level of training so just need a bit extra help to improve her again  

Oh when she pulled the water it was only on a sledge so didnt weigh too much and was attatched by a harness, she totally loved it! 

Fencing is also having a re vamp where the gaps are so fingers crossed with the temptation of freedom taken away she may be more inclined to listen.....I hope! 

Thanks all wish me luck!


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## suzysparkle (11 May 2013)

If you are insisting on having her off the lead then the only 100% reliable solution is to have sufficient fencing that she can't jump over, dig under or escape through. Huskies just don't have reliable recall. Whilst you might get it to be good most of the time you really should never rely on it. I have heard many cases of huskies that were 'fine off the lead' only to one day do a runner and either be shot for chasing sheep or run over by a car. There were 2 shot near here a couple of years ago, escaped through a tiny gap in a window and started chasing sheep. I would never ever trust any of mine and when they are let off the lead it is only in a fully enclosed area (very high fencing). 

Ours do not have a lesser quality of life and it really annoys me when I hear people saying otherwise about huskies and the fact they can't be let off leads. Our lives are devoted to them. They are regularly worked in harness and OP you have already identified that this is what yours loves. You don't need a big team to work them, you can work one dog using a bike, a scooter or just by plain running yourself and using a belt. The most important thing is that you keep tension on the line and don't do too much too soon. Most people start way too early for my liking but there's a debate for another day. They are bred to work in harness and this is when they are truly happy. 

In addition to our pack we also have 2 collies. Why?? So we can have 'normal' dogs who we can let off the lead (they also work in harness!). They used an electric perimeter fence with collars on JRT's at a yard I used to work it. It worked most, but not all of the time. I definitely wouldn't trust one and have no desire to even try this method. Good luck with your girl.


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## misterjinglejay (11 May 2013)

Why Can&#8217;t Siberian Huskies Safely Go Off-Lead?





This is one of the constant questions raised about Siberian Huskies.



You would think it would be enough that:

every responsible Siberian Husky owner will tell you that it is not safe to let a Siberian Husky off lead in an unenclosed area
every ethical Siberian Husky Breeder will tell you that it is not safe to let a Siberian Husky off lead in an unenclosed area
every single Siberian Husky rescue organisation IN THE WORLD will tell you that it is not safe to let a Siberian Husky off lead in an unenclosed area; and that
every single Siberian Husky Club IN THE WORLD will tell you exactly the same thing.



Now these people and organisations don&#8217;t take this line for fun, or to "big up" the wild nature of their dogs, or to try to keep the breed exclusive. They take it because it accurately reflects the bitter experience of thousands of owners worldwide over a long period of time.



However, this obviously is not enough because there are still a steady stream of people who just don&#8217;t believe this unanimous and ubiquitous message. When you give examples of Siberians which have been killed, caused accidents or been shot by farmers for killing/savaging livestock, the doubters come back with, &#8220;But you could say the same about any breed!&#8221; &#8211; and to be honest, in many respects they would be right. Too many irresponsible owners of all kinds of dogs let their dog off lead with little thought for their dog&#8217;s safety, the safety of other animals, or the safety of the public. That is not for discussion here though. I want to explain why, in my opinion, it is never safe to let Siberian Huskies offlead in unenclosed areas.



So, Why is the off-lead thing such a big deal with huskies? What makes them different from other breeds?

There are two major factors, both embedded deep within the history of the breed. The dogs we now know as Siberian Huskies were originally developed by what are known as the &#8220;maritime&#8221; Chukchi people of North East Siberia who relied on dogs for transportation during the frozen winter. Other Chukchi groups relied on Reindeer for both food and winter transportation. The maritime Chukchi lived in fixed summer villages along the Bering Sea coast, but during the arctic/sub-arctic winter, became nomadic &#8211; following and hunting whatever game was available. The Chukchi would load their whole families on their sled and using teams of up to 20 dogs, would hunt all winter, sometimes covering 100 miles a day in their search for food. It was originally estimated that the Chukchi&#8217;s dogs had been in existence for some 3000 years, but recent archeological research has found the remains of sled-type dogs going back well over 10,000 years. Indeed, the Siberian Husky has been recognised as one of the oldest dog breeds known to mankind, so they have had a long time for their instincts and behavioural traits to become hard-wired into them.

The two major factors I mentioned above are:

An extremely strong Prey Drive; and
A fiercely independent intelligence.


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## misterjinglejay (11 May 2013)

And the next part LOL:
Prey Drive - The source of their prey drive is simple. During the summer, when they were not required as transportation, the Chukchi dogs ran free around the summer villages, rarely being fed by their owners, but existing (if not prospering) on what they could steal or catch. As winter came and food became scarce the dogs once more became sled dogs (of course not all the dogs returned - accidents and natural predators accounted for some, but at least there were no roads for them to be killed on). This pattern of behaviour was built up over a period of time which has been estimated as long as 10,000 years.

As a result of millennia of such behaviour, these dogs now have a fearsome prey drive and the hunting skills to match. It is very common to hear that someone&#8217;s huskies have killed cats, rabbits, squirrels, birds (ours have taken birds out of the sky as they fly over our garden at low level) and even sheep. It is rare that they regard even small dogs as &#8220;prey&#8221; as they seem to be able to recognise a fellow canine.



Independent Intelligence &#8211; You will occasionally hear dog trainers complain that huskies are not &#8220;trainable,&#8221; and you will consistently see them left out of lists of &#8220;The Ten Most Intelligent Dog Breeds&#8221; etc. The problem with such trainers and such lists is that they confuse obedience and &#8220;biddability&#8221; with intelligence, and, in reality they are not at all the same thing. Train a Border Collie to fetch a ball and it will tend to retrieve the ball time after time after time. Train a Siberian Husky to fetch a ball and it will do one of two things &#8211; either eat the ball, or bring it back once. The next time you throw it the sibe will look at you as if to say &#8211; &#8220;You threw it! YOU get it back! Do you think I&#8217;m that stupid?&#8221;

When you give a trained Border Collie a command, you usually get instant obedience. When you give a command to a Husky, the Husky actually thinks about it before deciding to comply or ignore the command. This may sound like bloody-mindedness, but it is in fact a deeply ingrained survival trait for arctic sled dogs. Think about it. You are the lead dog on a sled team pulling your Chukchi owner and his family across the frozen sea ice. Your owner shouts for you to turn right down a trail between a line of ice seracs as he knows this is the way to get to a safe camping area for the night. As lead dog, you can see that a right turn leads you to the edge of a deep crevasse and you refuse to make the turn. It is this intelligence and independence of thought which has been bred into Siberian Huskies over thousands of generations.

An example of this came from Leonhard Seppala&#8217;s famous lead dog (and hero of the 1925 Dipheria Run &#8211; Togo. One day, Seppala was running his team, led by Togo, over the sea ice of the notorious Norton Sound,



&#8220;Togo had been leading his sled across the sound during a northeastern gale on another occasion when, a few miles from shore, Seppala heard an ominous crack that let him know the sea ice was breaking up. Togo headed toward shore even before Seppala could give the command, but drew up short so fast he nearly flipped backwards. A yawning chasm of water had opened almost at Togo&#8217;s feet, but the dog had reacted quickly enough to avert immediate disaster. Seppala looked around and realized with dismay that he and his team were trapped on an ice floe and headed out to sea.

They spent more than twelve hours on that raft of ice, waiting as it drifted in the icy waters. Finally it neared land, but ran up against another floe that was jammed against the ice still connected to shore. they stopped moving, but there was still a five foot gap of water that Seppala couldn&#8217;t hope to cross. He tied a lead onto Togo and heaved the dog across the water. Togo landed on the ice and sensing what Seppala intended, the dog began pulling with all his might, narrowing the gap between the two ice floes. Then the lead rope snapped. Seppala thought he was a dead man. Then Togo, showing himself to be possessed of more intelligence and resourcefulness than most men could expect from even their lead dogs, leaped into the water and grabbed the broken end of the lead rope in his jaws. He clambered back onto the ice and continued pulling until he had narrowed the gap enough for Seppala and the sled to cross safely.&#8221;



As it was with Seppala&#8217;s Siberian dogs, so it is today with our Siberian Huskies. No matter how well trained your Sibe is, there is always a part of his/her mind that, when he/she hears an instruction thinks, "Is it a good idea to follow that order?" and also, "What's in it for me?" - When you combine that independence of thought and keen intelligence with the high prey drive, you can see that obedience when offlead is a very dodgy prospect indeed.



Huskies don&#8217;t help themselves in this regard. It is often found that husky puppies will act in extremely obedient ways for the first few months of their lives. I have lost count of the number of owners who have told me their Sibe is the exception that proves the rule and is ultra-obedient. Upon further discussion, it almost always transpires that the dog is a puppy &#8211; 4 or 5 months old! Sibe puppies can lull you into a false sense of security - then puberty hits, they realise that they don&#8217;t need you, and all bets are off!!!



We have been interested in Siberians for 20 years and have owned them for 17+. During that time we have personally come across at least one owner each year whose &#8220;highly trained&#8221; Sibe has "gone deaf" for the first and last time and ended up dead under a car, shot by a farmer for savaging livestock or having caused a major traffic accident. The common theme is that all these owners quite genuinely believed that they could train this trait out of their dogs; that their relationship with their dogs was so good that their dogs would always respond to the recall command; and that the recommendation of every husky related organisation IN THE WORLD was nonsense and that they and their dog were somehow special. Unfortunately, these owners learned the hard way with tragic consequences for themselves and their dogs. The plaintive, &#8220;He/She&#8217;s always come back before&#8221; is a common refrain in these tragic cases.
__________________


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## misterjinglejay (11 May 2013)

Stop me if you're bored
This is exactly the naive "I know better than every Siberian Husky organisation in the world" attitude which unfortunately leads to the deaths of too many Siberians each year. My wife is an expert dog trainer. I have seen her achieve things with Sibes (and other dogs) that I would have thought pretty near impossible. All our adult dogs have excellent recall and obedience and are often a source of amazement to people who regard sibes as untrainable. Yet neither she nor I would ever let our dogs off lead in an unsafe/unenclosed area because we know that their recall can never be 100% and they are much too precious for us to risk.



Having said all that, we believe strongly that all Siberian Husky owners should train their dogs in recall. We always recommend that people train their Siberians to recall IN SAFE ENCLOSED AREAS to as high a level as possible. Even in the best regulated worlds accidents sometimes happen &#8211; dogs slip their collars, snap their leads, escape from cages etc etc &#8211; and if you have trained your dog to recall, at least you have a chance of getting it back. Such training cannot be guaranteed, but at least it&#8217;s a form of insurance.





Talking about insurance &#8211; a message to all those who, despite all the evidence and arguments, still insist on letting their dogs go offlead in unenclosed areas &#8211; get some public liability insurance. If your dog goes offlead and causes an accident or kills livestock &#8211; YOU are liable. On second thoughts, maybe it&#8217;s not worth it! The fact that every single Siberian Husky organisation in the world advises against letting them off lead, the owner whose dog caused the crash or killed the livestock could be liable for huge damages, as in legal terms, it could be argued that by acting against such universal informed advice, they had been incredibly negligent in letting their dog off lead in an unenclosed area and that this obvious negligence would invalidate their insurance.

Just a thought!





Mick Brent

Dreamcatcher Siberian Huskies

The Siberian Husky Welfare Association (UK)


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## _jac_ (11 May 2013)

Excellent and very informative posts from husky owners, thank you!


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## Dobiegirl (11 May 2013)

Misterjay that was a fascinating read, I dont have a Husky or ever want one for all the reasons you list, beautiful dogs though and can see the appeal. 

I do hope the op takes on board everything you have said otherwise they will lose their dog and possibley their wolf dog as well.

I think it was CC who said you cant put a square peg in a round hole and that sums it up very well.


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## Red30563 (11 May 2013)

Dobiegirl said:



			Misterjay that was a fascinating read, I dont have a Husky or ever want one for all the reasons you list, beautiful dogs though and can see the appeal.
		
Click to expand...

^^^ This! Thank you for taking the time to post that, MisterJay.


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## gunnergundog (11 May 2013)

Brilliant posts Misterjay! 

One thing I would add as an observer of the breed......as you say, many people think that THEIR sibe is going to be different;  it will be the one with the perfect **** hot recall!  These, IME, are often people who have young pups which lull them into a false sense of security.  Let that pup become a teenager - as is the OP's dog at 12 months of age - and then the base instincts really kick in and recall goes out of the window.  Velcro pup becomes bogoff dog, often with the inevitable consequences.


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## misterjinglejay (11 May 2013)

I cannot take credit for that, unfortunately - it was written by Mick Brent from the Siberian Husky Welfare. However with such a long piece there's much c&ping, and I think I deserve the credit for that


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## eatmyshorts (12 May 2013)

Excellent post. Anyone considering a husky as a pet would do well to read that.

OP you'd be wise to listen to experienced people who have learned from others mistakes to keep their dogs safe. I know many experienced husky owners and not a single one allows their dogs off leash unless in a very secure enclosed area. I believe it would be virtually impossible to "husky- proof" an entire yard and it's land. Quite frankly, if free roaming is the kind of life you want your dog to have, you have the wrong breed/s. 

I'm not against ecollars as a last resort, in the right circumstances, and hands, but don't punish your dog with shocks for traits very well known within it's breed, that's just not fair. Would you consider it cruel to have a cat on the yard and then punish it for wandering off? Of course, because that's in it's nature, it's what cats do. Well, we know what huskies do, it's proven, documented, fact. There may be exceptions to every rule, but the risks to your girl when she runs off (taking your other dog with her) are very high. It won't be you who pays the price. Please do the responsible thing and provide a lifestyle and safe environment for her to live. Nobody here wants to say "I told you so".


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## RCP Equestrian (12 May 2013)

Wow that was a facinating read mj! 

I am definitely going to seek pro help, although I'm not nieve and dont think twice about tying her up on a lunge line on the yard  I just hate her crying whilst all the other dogs are roaming but like you have all said I would prefer her there than under a car!! 

She was out for a couple of hours yesterday and never left me (wasnt by my side but stayed with me wherever I went) so she can be like that but again like you say its the unpredictability of the breed, one minute they're there the next they're gone!  

She has improved a hell of a lot since being with us and like I say her straying has reduced a lot as well and I do believe this is down to her being spayed.

But, life for Laska will now be the lunge line  however, I'm determined to secure the fencing and find someone to help me a bit more for recall tips and see how she goes. It only takes one time for her to het out and she could be killed so its only for her sake.

Thanks for all the tips guys, will put them in to practise once I'be Husky proofed my yard


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## Goldenstar (12 May 2013)

We have a freedom fence these are a good system for problem dogs provided you  maintain it well check it regularily and train the dog properly.
The dog wears the collar as the collar gets close to the wire the bleeps as it gets closer to the wire it bleeps louder and faster until constant then it gives a shock ( you can vary the setting on the shock)
The training is easy I had my fence installed by the company and the installer took me through the training programme .the dogs learned fast it was only one that was naughty but I trained them all .
You just them out get on with working on the yard and know they are safe it's round all the fields so they have total freedom to roam on the place they love it and I know their ok .
It is expensive and you have to check and maintain the collars I never walk my dogs of the property over the wire they only go out in the car which helps to keep the training clear.
You would have to clip a square on the huskys neck to get contact with the unit.


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## RCP Equestrian (12 May 2013)

Thanks for that GS cant quote on my phone but thats exaxtly what I would be looking for for her. Can you send me details of the company please?


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## Dry Rot (12 May 2013)

Old age and experience has taught me the futility of getting into these discussions. 

But if there are any sheep about, the problem of a straying dog will soon resolve itself. 

It's lambing time and farmers often keep a gun in the car.


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## RCP Equestrian (12 May 2013)

Lucky theres no lambs round us....just houses!  haha


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## MurphysMinder (12 May 2013)

An excellent piece from Sibe Welfare, thanks for sharing.  I can only imagine their frustration when trying to get the message across to new owners.
I have seen freedom fences work for dogs, but would question whether they would so so for a husky, I imagine the drive as referred to in misterjays posts would be enough to carry them through the momentary shock as they pass through the fence.  I think your plans for thoroughly reinforcing your fence, and keeping her on a lunge line when she is not in an enclosed area are probably best, as Dry Rot says, at lambing time farmers don't usually give dogs the benefit of the doubt.


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## Goldenstar (12 May 2013)

MurphysMinder said:



			An excellent piece from Sibe Welfare, thanks for sharing.  I can only imagine their frustration when trying to get the message across to new owners.
I have seen freedom fences work for dogs, but would question whether they would so so for a husky, I imagine the drive as referred to in misterjays posts would be enough to carry them through the momentary shock as they pass through the fence.  I think your plans for thoroughly reinforcing your fence, and keeping her on a lunge line when she is not in an enclosed area are probably best, as Dry Rot says, at lambing time farmers don't usually give dogs the benefit of the doubt.

Click to expand...

I think there's every chance it would work they are great for explorer type dogs that roam not ggod for dogs that chase so a dog actively chasing a rabbit might overun the fence but they are only as good as the disclpine you show in training them and maintaining the training and the collars.
OP I will pm you later with the details when I am at home.


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## RCP Equestrian (12 May 2013)

Thanks GS! 

Had her out with me this morning and took them all round the fields and threw their stick for them. She stayed with us the whole time and just played with the others and came back when asked. Even stopped off for a cuddle in the middle of the field which she would have never done before! 

Although MJs post was very good and accurate I really dont find her to be prey driven at all, the wolf very much so! Haha. Hence why I think she would benefit from the fencing and collar just to eliminate the temptation, if she knows she cant get out she doesnt bother and just plays with the others in the field. 

Fingers crossed


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## misterjinglejay (12 May 2013)

I have to say, I agree with MM on the freedom fences. Bear in mind, that sibes/mals tend to chase, even if it is only rabbits in their heads - the adrenaline is still there, and that's what they run on, and thus, won't notice any 'zap', noise etc. I haven't read one case where the freedom fence was successful with a sibe, some even ending in disaster, where the owner relied on the FF.


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## misterjinglejay (12 May 2013)

It's up to you, obviously, RCP, but it will only happen the once


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## galaxy (12 May 2013)

eatmyshorts said:



			OP you'd be wise to listen to experienced people who have learned from others mistakes to keep their dogs safe. I know many experienced husky owners and not a single one allows their dogs off leash unless in a very secure enclosed area. I believe it would be virtually impossible to "husky- proof" an entire yard and it's land. Quite frankly, if free roaming is the kind of life you want your dog to have, you have the wrong breed/s. 

I'm not against ecollars as a last resort, in the right circumstances, and hands, but don't punish your dog with shocks for traits very well known within it's breed, that's just not fair. Would you consider it cruel to have a cat on the yard and then punish it for wandering off? Of course, because that's in it's nature, it's what cats do. Well, we know what huskies do, it's proven, documented, fact. There may be exceptions to every rule, but the risks to your girl when she runs off (taking your other dog with her) are very high. It won't be you who pays the price. Please do the responsible thing and provide a lifestyle and safe environment for her to live. Nobody here wants to say "I told you so".
		
Click to expand...

These are the thoughts I've been having as I read this thread.  I just didn't know how to word it.  I hope people really think about what EMS has written here.

In terms of the freedom fence I have written this before.  A friend of mine has one on her land.  It has failed several times and has resulted in the death of one dog.  They have their place, but do not idley rely on it.  It needs checking CONSTANTLY that there is not a fault in the wire (from a wild animal breaking it for example) or the collar has not stopped working. From what I have seen I don't think I would ever feel comfortable trusting it fully.


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## huskydamage (12 May 2013)

Proud owner of a 3 year old husky x mal, I can definately vouch that they have a crap recall!
I know the off/on lead debate for huskies is a bit of a controversial thing, but heres my story/words of caution anyway...
 When I first got my puppy I thought I knew better, even though everyone told me huskies are on lead dogs. Until he was a year and a half old, I rarely had him on a lead and he was pretty good, if he ever got distracted I used to turn and run away and he would chase after me. One day he legged it off into a field with livestock in, (I didn't know they were there as hidden by trees) and chased them. Luckily he did not harm any, but he only stopped because I ran up and grabbed him. I have never let him off lead again. 
There is reason people say to keep huskys on lead, they are too unreliable! I found out the hard way! and if the dog's prey drive is high, you have no chance! Much safer to be on lead, then running across a road or getting shot by a farmer, my boy is too precious to me to risk.


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## eatmyshorts (12 May 2013)

Having looked into the tear-filled eyes if a devastated husky owner while he told me of how a farmer dragged his dog off & blew her head off (even when she had not been worrying sheep - she was just loose on his land - actually through no fault of this owner personally, the dog was not in his care at the time it got loose) i have to say i really really really hate it when "pet owners" think they know better, that their dog has faultless recall, low prey drive etc etc. This breed in full flight or chase mode will not be logically thinking about training once the adrenalin is pumping. A younger dog may be okay & come back, but as they get older years of inherited genes start to kick in. You will only learn this lesson once, you will have other chances, your dog will not.  If you have a sibe (husky) build an escape proof run, maintain it well, & give your dog appropriate regular exercise. You will never actually know if you've saved it's life - but that's better than knowing that you didn't.


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## MurphysMinder (12 May 2013)

Excellent post ems (and I don't even have sibes!).


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## misterjinglejay (12 May 2013)

eatmyshorts said:



			Having looked into the tear-filled eyes if a devastated husky owner while he told me of how a farmer dragged his dog off & blew her head off (even when she had not been worrying sheep - she was just loose on his land - actually through no fault of this owner personally, the dog was not in his care at the time it got loose) i have to say i really really really hate it when "pet owners" think they know better, that their dog has faultless recall, low prey drive etc etc. This breed in full flight or chase mode will not be logically thinking about training once the adrenalin is pumping. A younger dog may be okay & come back, but as they get older years of inherited genes start to kick in. You will only learn this lesson once, you will have other chances, your dog will not.  If you have a sibe (husky) build an escape proof run, maintain it well, & give your dog appropriate regular exercise. You will never actually know if you've saved it's life - but that's better than knowing that you didn't.
		
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Well said!


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## blackcob (12 May 2013)

Our neighbour lost one a few years ago, hit by a truck after he took off after a rabbit and kept going for miles. She still finds it hard to speak about him. I was horrified to find that she's started letting her existing one off again.  He's 7 and has never given her reason to doubt his recall but neither did the other one until the day he died.

The difference is that she doesn't work her dogs and feels obliged to let them off to give them enough exercise but there are so many alternatives available that are more fulfilling for the nature of the dog.

My sibe was going to be different, the one that recalled perfectly and did everything I asked at the click of my fingers. She soon showed me.  It was arrogant of me to think I could override thousands of years of selective breeding for traits that are pretty incompatible with being a pet dog. 

What I needed was a border collie, what I got was a delinquent wolf. I live with the consequences but as well as the restrictions it's also turned out to be a lot more exciting and adventurous.


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## *hic* (12 May 2013)

RCP Equestrian said:



			Lucky theres no lambs round us....just houses!  haha
		
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haha indeed. It was about this time last year that a husky and wolfdog escaped near where I used to live. After ripping up a young cat in front of its owner they carried on roaming and one ended up in my sheep, wounding, maiming and killing.

They had been out before plenty of times but no-one had reported it to the police. The nuisance that they caused in the times they were just out "playing" was instrumental in the severity of the sentence given to the owners. It was the dogs who paid the ultimate price for the owners' stupidity though, they were both killed.

FWIW, the dogs mentioned above had caused many small incidents that no-one had thought much of - running across the roads and knocking a cyclist off, causing cars to do emergency stops, killing chickens, ducks and rabbits, getting in peoples' gardens and chasing cats and small dogs through cat/dog flaps, hassling people walking other dogs (one 10 yo girl walking a chihuahua was rescued when the dogs went for it because as she lifted it over her head to get it away the escapees were jumping up and snapping at it, luckily some adults heard the commotion and beat the dogs off), chasing people on horses. Once it was known that the police were prepared to take action against the owners all these tales came out of the woodwork. You may think that your dogs haven't caused any trouble but if there are houses and people around the inhabitants may well not feel the same.

Of course, your dogs, your choice.


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## blackcob (12 May 2013)

MM, forgot to say, will find out more about job tomorrow. Our vet is going to do some prodding for me, he said they still haven't hired anyone and he will find out what's going on, as a partner I hope he has some influence over the decision.  Final x-rays tomorrow morning, will do an update when she's home.


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## MurphysMinder (12 May 2013)

Fingers crossed for the job and final x rays.  Tell him you need the job to pay his bill.


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## NinjaPony (12 May 2013)

I have to say I am very concerned about the rising number of huskies being registered in the UK. These dogs are NOT for the average pet owner, they do NOT make good "family pets" for your average dog owner, they need competent handling by people who understand that this breed is not like a Labrador..... My friend works in a shelter and the number of huskies coming in is rapidly rising. Such a shame. I think some people like the look of them (they are gorgeous) and don't research the breed properly.
I hope you manage to sort out the recall issue, tbh better on a lead and safe than dead under the wheels of a car, or injuring someones beloved pet.
Could you walk her on a lunge line, so she has room to "roam" but under control?


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## Cahill (12 May 2013)

on page 1 you say " we just let our dogs roam about for most of the day and they're locked away at night."  and also state that you dog has only " been off the yard 3 times "

so glad that I have put time and effort into my dog.
goodness knows what he would have been like if left to his own devices like yours.


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## {97702} (12 May 2013)

I wish I could 'like' so many of the posts on this thread - Cahill, NinjaPony, j*a, blackcob, EMS, misterjay.....


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## gunnergundog (13 May 2013)

RCP......not only can/do freedom fences fail, dogs with sufficiently high prey drive can learn to go through the pain of running through it.  Rarely though do they choose to run through the pain to return into their allegedly securely fenced territory.

A friend of a friend had a pet bred Viz that learned the above technique;  ended up on the railway line.

Please just accept the dog you have; it is 12 months old....it is an adolescent and it is to be expected that its behaviour will change.


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## Alec Swan (13 May 2013)

NinjaPony said:



			........ These dogs are NOT for the average pet owner, they do NOT make good "family pets" for your average dog owner, they need competent handling by people who understand that this breed is not like a Labrador..... 

.......
		
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What a pleasant surprise to read such sense.  There are several breeds of dog which have been bred in such a way that there has either been no need for an in-hand relationship,  or such a relationship would be counterproductive. 

Some of these breeds,  have been bred since their inception,  to be pack reliant;  Hounds for instance and probably Sled Dogs too.  Who in their right minds wants a Foxhound as a pet?  

Then on the other hand we have English Pointers and the English and Irish Setters,  who's main use and purpose has been to range open moorland,  sometimes at a distance of half a mile,  or more,  and it's unusual to find one that does "Heel work",  that being an undesirable trait.  

The experienced dog trainer steers clear of most of the difficult breeds,  because the amount of effort put in to get them to the stage of being compliant and worthwhile companions,  simply isn't worth such effort.  Then all so often,  those with limited knowledge seem to know more than the person who wants nothing to do with their chosen breed.  

There have been suggestions that such recalcitrant (and yes,  that is the right word!) dogs should be kept on a lunge line when they're outside the confines of what's effectively a cage.  Where is the pleasure in keeping such a dog?  How can keeping such an animal be justified,  and how do those who know-best live with the daily battle,  some committed and so for the life of the dog?  I wonder how many,  when they have such an animal pass on,  breath a silent sigh of relief,  and move on to a more tractable breed.

Such as it is,  my experience extends through gundogs,  protection and tracker dogs,  coursing dogs and sheepdogs.  All my dogs,  and there have been many,  have first and for-most,  been companions.  They've been,  and still are,  with me every day,  enjoying their roles as not only dogs doing a job of work,  but my work companions.  When I lived alone,  there were many days when the only people I spoke to,  were my dogs!

This is rather wandering away from the question of the suitability of certain breeds as pets.  Breed types do change,  of course, they evolve.  In the early 70s Rotts started to appear,  and many (most?) of the early ones were specialist dogs.  Many were downright dangerous,  and so many were ignorant creatures which were bought and kept by those who previously paraded down the street with a Doberman.  Rotts are now becoming a breed which whilst evolving have become far more of a family pet,  far more amenable,  and far less of a liability.  I know of some very nice Rotts,  and Dobes,  too.

I suppose that the Sled Dog breeds could be bred to fill a role as a family pet,  as have Rotts and Dobermans,  but will it honestly be worth the effort?

As a disclaimer,  there will be those I'm sure,  who have dalmatians,  beagles and huskies which win obedience tests and are the very apple of their owners eye,  but they will be in a minority I'd have thought.

Alec.


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## Spudlet (13 May 2013)

I think the answer to why people would keep them and what would make them a pleasure to have must at least partly come down to having them do the job they were bred to do - which is to run in harness. I cannot think why anyone would get such a dog without having this in mind (well I can - because they look just like the wolfy dogs in Game of Thrones, right? Which is why they then get kicked out as soon as they turn into teenage huskies and stop being cute wolfy pups). 

You could say the same about many working breeds - if they don't get an outlet for the traits that we have bred into them for years, they can be a nightmare. The beagle that vanishes for hours at a time. The collie that obsessively chases cars. The manic spaniel that never sits still. You can't just decide one day that these dogs must suddenly adapt to a life of one walk in the park a day. We (humans) have altered these dogs right down to the way in which their brains develop and we need to be respectful of that. 

Personally I think watching a dog do what it was bred to do is a joyful sight (well, unless you are the burglar watching a GSD follow its instincts all over you) and although I wouldn't have a sled dog breed, I can understand those that have them to run them. Watching the little one at training run is an education, she covers the ground like nothing else and I really hope I'll get to see her in harness one day, when she's old enough.


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## misterjinglejay (13 May 2013)

NinjaPony said:



			I have to say I am very concerned about the rising number of huskies being registered in the UK. These dogs are NOT for the average pet owner, they do NOT make good "family pets" for your average dog owner, they need competent handling by people who understand that this breed is not like a Labrador..... My friend works in a shelter and the number of huskies coming in is rapidly rising. Such a shame. I think some people like the look of them (they are gorgeous) and don't research the breed properly.
I hope you manage to sort out the recall issue, tbh better on a lead and safe than dead under the wheels of a car, or injuring someones beloved pet.
Could you walk her on a lunge line, so she has room to "roam" but under control?
		
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Too many good posts to quote, but the above is unfortunately very true 

I have always wanted working sleddogs, waited, researched, talked to owners/breeders etc, and finally have some. To see them doing what they were bred to (okay, not quite the same as trundling across Alaska for months on end) is amazing, and it nearly always bring tears to my eyes.

The walking side of owning them is fine (although hard work). Mine are on a lunge line/walking belt, and can roam about, sniff and pick up the latest doggy gossip as much as they like, but are under control. Their main exercise is in harness, but we walk ours for a good couple of hours a day, and then they run off what's left, in my enclosed garden. I, personally, don't see anything wrong with that.


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## Cyrus (13 May 2013)

My girl after a 2 hour on lead walk, please do tell me she leads an unhappy life not being allowed to wander a farm with escapable fencing


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## Booboos (13 May 2013)

Two Huskies got loose near us when we lived in Yorkshire. Apparently they both jumped the front garden fence and took off, something they had never done before. They were loose for 3 days. At one point they came onto our land but we couldn't get anywhere near them to catch them. One was eventually shot by a farmer, the other was caught by its owner. Very sad...


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## suzysparkle (13 May 2013)

Well I think it's time for some pictures of what huskies do best, just to illustrate things. They don't need to be off the lead to enjoy life to the full! 

The black and white boy in lead we imported from Alaska a few years ago. He is now 10. Note also you can just see one of our Collie's in right wheel (at the back), he likes to run in harness as well!!







Pretty girls, all related, and all from Alaskan imports.







Pulling approx 235kg (heavy passenger cart with 2 people)


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## eatmyshorts (13 May 2013)

Cool pics. I'd go a step further & say it's not just what they do best, but what they should be doing!


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## blackcob (14 May 2013)

Can't post pics as my laptop has died and I've been mobile only all week but as above, I defy anyone to say that my dogs suffer for being on a lead. They have more exercise than any pet dog I know (and some working ones!) and their fair share of free running but in a fenced and supervised environment only.

Still haven't heard MM, he called in sick! Still did x-rays but no results/discussion until he's back tomorrow.


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## Alec Swan (14 May 2013)

blackcob,

I don't think that anyone is criticising those who keep sled dogs,  and use the dog,  for its intended and bred-for purpose.  The parallel could be those City living horses who never have their freedom,  but they are out daily and serving a purpose.

The questions arise where we have those who keep certain breeds of dog,  deny them the right to exercise their bodies and/or their brains,  and then bleat about the fact that they can't do anything with the bloody thing,  because it's showing all the signs of a dog which is living a frustrated and contained life,  when it's breed history and genetics would have it otherwise.

I've only ever had dogs which are of use to me.  I understand and accept that there are those who keep dogs,  for other purposes,  but if I could have one wish,  it would be that those who select dogs bred for a purpose,  think carefully,  very carefully,  about their choices.  Most antisocial behaviour from dogs which have been bred to fulfil a role,  is because of the poor creatures frustration.

suzysparkle,  excellent pics!  Whether you compete with your dogs,  or simply enjoy the ride,  is academic.  The fact is that your dogs are being allowed to express themselves,  as have countless generations before them.

Alec.


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## blackcob (14 May 2013)

For once, Alec, we couldn't be more in agreement.


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## MurphysMinder (14 May 2013)

Yep, totally agree with Alec too. A friend has recently spent some time in lapland and went on several husky safaris.  She said the dogs excitement when they saw their harnesses was incredible.  These dogs lived outside with minimal shelters and were the picture of health, she even has pictures of a couple that have dog themselves into snow holes and are curled up fast asleep ,snug and warm.  Of all the breeds I think huskies really have stayed as nature intended them to be, which is why people who try to keep them as pets have problems.
I've met blackcobs two, and know how much work she puts in to keep them happy balanced dogs.  I also still remember how D managed within about half an hour, to escape from my field which has kept generations of GSDs contained for over 20 years.

Ets.  I've got cramp from keeping the fingers crossed bc.


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## blackcob (14 May 2013)

There will forever be a Dax-arse-shaped hole to remember her by.


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## misterjinglejay (14 May 2013)

SS love the pictures of your dogs - fantastic. 
And Cyrus - as usual, your girl is lovely (but does she have to be so big - I'm scrolling everywhere).

Just uploaded a vid onto FB of our guys in harness (although not a picturesque as SS's), and if I could work out how to post here, I would


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## misterjinglejay (14 May 2013)

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## Nikki J (14 May 2013)

Alec Swan said:



			blackcob,

I don't think that anyone is criticising those who keep sled dogs,  and use the dog,  for its intended and bred-for purpose.  The parallel could be those City living horses who never have their freedom,  but they are out daily and serving a purpose.

The questions arise where we have those who keep certain breeds of dog,  deny them the right to exercise their bodies and/or their brains,  and then bleat about the fact that they can't do anything with the bloody thing,  because it's showing all the signs of a dog which is living a frustrated and contained life,  when it's breed history and genetics would have it otherwise.

I've only ever had dogs which are of use to me.  I understand and accept that there are those who keep dogs,  for other purposes,  but if I could have one wish,  it would be that those who select dogs bred for a purpose,  think carefully,  very carefully,  about their choices.  Most antisocial behaviour from dogs which have been bred to fulfil a role,  is because of the poor creatures frustration.

suzysparkle,  excellent pics!  Whether you compete with your dogs,  or simply enjoy the ride,  is academic.  The fact is that your dogs are being allowed to express themselves,  as have countless generations before them.

Alec.
		
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Another excellent post - totally agree


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## Red30563 (14 May 2013)

Wow, great pictures, SS. The wonderful, energetic, happy expressions on your dogs faces in the first pic says more than words ever can about why these dogs should be doing this!


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## Cyrus (14 May 2013)

MJ apologies lol posted it on phone and that made it small eep 
You can tell they are loonies normal malamutes ain't that fast ;-)


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