# Cheap Indian saddle/bridles on ebay...



## Shysmum (9 May 2011)

I would be really interested in a discussion on these saddles and bridles imported from India, that are freely available in the UK, mainly via ebay. I would be really interested to know what actual saddlers have to say too 

In my search for a treeless saddle, and a bitless bridle, I have come across COUNTLESS items that have been made in India, and are offered at way below what you would expect to pay. These saddles and bridles are not tested in any way (indeed is any tack for safety and quality ), and Mr General Public is obviously keen to buy, as more and more of the stuff keeps appearing.

What I want to know is this - do people who buy this stuff realise exactly what they are buying, does it concern them, regarding their horse's welfare, and should there be a crackdown on these saddles/bridles coming in to the UK, in light of what they are made of, how they are made, and the potential of damage to the horse ??

I found this link when researching this ;http://www.google.co.uk/search?sour..._en-GBGB391GB391&q=cosmic+leathers+saddles+uk

Another one, for example,  is the guy who sells "awesome sexy treeless saddles" - my god, who buys from HIM ????

Also, many of the "named makes" are made in India, which you would not know unless you googled for some time  - would this influence your choice if you knew this, and do you think that all tack should have a "made in........" label applied ?

Just really interested what other peeps think. Should the industry be more regulated, or is the competition keeping prices of genuine stuff lower ???


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## millreef (9 May 2011)

I'd much rather wait for the sales and get something of quality rather than a cheapy badly made one.  I understand that some of the more expensive names are also made in places like India and Vietnam where they can cut down on costs but they have more stringent testing and higher standards on these products.  If push came to shove I'd buy second hand rather than cheaply made rubbish.  I picked up a lovely Stubben with stirrups and leathers the other month for under 300 quid.


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## Stacey6897 (9 May 2011)

Someone told me Radley handbags are now made in India!  Don't know if it's true, I can't tell 

Years ago I had a bit of indian leather rip, looked like torn cardboard, guessing the quality can be pretty variable.


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## Rowreach (9 May 2011)

I've seen one of these Indian treeless saddles stripped down, and it was enough to make your hair curl   They are made of the cheapest materials and held together with nothing more than a bit of glue.  The webbing that the girth straps are stitched to is literally the sort of thing you'd find in a cheap deck chair, and is in two pieces (rather than one piece attached to girth straps on both sides).

They are an absolute deathtrap, and the worst thing is that people buy these things as a cheap option for their kids 

Gawd knows what they would do to a horse's back longterm, but I doubt any of them last long enough, which is possibly the only good thing about them


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## millreef (9 May 2011)

Wouldn't touch them with a shitty stick


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## cptrayes (9 May 2011)

I have no problem with the cheap bridles except that for some reason the throatlash is almost always ridiculously short! I even buy cheap reins from a reputable source - Robinsons, Rideaway, and check for flaws before I use them, but I have never had a problem and I hunt, jump and ride fast in them on horses which pull.  I would never use billetted reins, only buckled ones.  If you oil them regularly they are fine for day to day use.

The saddles - would not touch one with the proverbial bargepole and the Argentinian ones can be a problem too. I got an Henri de Rivel once where the stirrup bars were so close to the tree that it was completely impossible to thread a stirrup leather onto it.


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## ngrace (9 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I would never use billetted reins, only buckled ones..
		
Click to expand...

Whys that?



(sorry if i'm having a dim moment!)


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## Kaylum (9 May 2011)

its was probably 10 years ago now when we did research into this.  Anyway we had found the trees made out of pile wood and "USED" medical waste was being put into these.  

Cannot comment nowadays it was when we had an online saddlery.  We did an article to go on our website about it.


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## unicornleather (9 May 2011)

It makes me laugh the people who avoid anything Indian like the plague but buy the cheap saddlery on ebay that is labelled "English leather" yes it's English leather BUT the actual bridle etc is made in India using Indian methods of "craftsmanship"  and Indian lorinery, (buckles,fittings etc) how many of you have had a "English" piece of saddlery that the buckles, hook studs, trigger hooks etc have broken, ever wondered why?
And the leather is so dry as it's been made here, shipped out on a boat to India, sat in their warehouse in the heat, then made into saddlery, then shipped back, then sat in a wholesalers warehouse for god knows how long, then in a shop or storage if online retailer finally you get it!
Leather loses moisture everyday whether it is used or not, so after it's first few months of life it is very dry and liable to break.I get "English leather" bridles in all the time to replace leather running and fixed loops, the originals are paper thin and bone dry.
The Indian saddles made in India using English leather again have Indian trees!
Now if you saw some of those you'd run amile!
Ever seen inside a Rhinegold synthetic saddle?
Believe me you wish you hadn't, Rhinegold is a name used by a certain wholesaler and the items are actually made yes, you guessed it, in India using either synthetic materials or German leather, it's one big con!
The wording on "English leather" saddlery is wrong, it IS English leather yes, but the way it is worded it gives people the impression it is made here instead of abroad. Don't let the retailers on ebay tell you otherwise!
I have to go out now but will be back later to answer any questions anyone has about it.
Oz


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## moana (9 May 2011)

millreef said:



			Wouldn't touch them with a shitty stick
		
Click to expand...

Wish I was brave enough to type that - spot on!!


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## Shysmum (9 May 2011)

Oz, really interesting - more please 

So it's not worth the fact that it's "English Leather" - what we should know about this stuff is that it is MADE in england, or more correctly made in INDIA.  And how do you find this out ? Well atm, you have to go to each manufacturer, and ask them where the stuff is made. And you'd be shocked :  That's IF they tell you the truth.

isn't it about time that the place of manufacture was a legal addition to the labelling ? I really think so, after this 6 month epic I've been on.

In fact, it would be interesting to contact all the sellers and ask them outright, and post the results ?


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## JingleTingle (9 May 2011)

I am told by a friend that has a tack shop - most of the well known and respected brands are now made in China - but isnt everything?

A few years ago I had a teenager loaning a horse of mine - she asked could she put a 'lovely pair of reins' she had bought at a show on his bridle. Told her to do what she liked but they were cheap c**p and wouldnt use them myself for safety reasons. Fast forward to 1st exhuberant gallop up a stubble field - horse got strong, reins snapped away from the bit!!! Luckily neither rider nor horse came to grief - but a very good lessons was learnt that day by my young friend!


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## brown tack (9 May 2011)

My last horse came "with tack"
I tried him in a lovely stubben, when he came he had a cheap new one from eBay. There was no way I was even going to put it on his back, the flocking was all lumply uneven in size, unbalanced and the seat was twisted. And that's not even getting me started on the leather!!!

Well I told the owners no thankyou and got 250 knocked off his price and went brought one that actually was a saddle and not a bit of c&£@


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## Amaranta (9 May 2011)

Sadly I believe most, if not all, equestrian stuff is now made in the East, it is a question of cost I'm afraid.  Fal was an exception and look at the price of those!  I believe the company that has bought and taken over the name Fal is having the rugs made out East now.

Older peeps may actually wonder why bits have decreased in price (with the exception of KK, Neue Shule etc), some being cheaper than they were say 15 years ago, the reason is they are now made in Taiwan with Tiawanese stainless steel.

We no longer seem able to manufacture in this country, not without the price going through the roof, sad but true


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## c2b (9 May 2011)

Take a look at the photos on this thread http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/ee/boards/index.php/topic,33616.0.html Its photos of a cheap saddle being taken apart step by step. Very interesting


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## Fii (9 May 2011)

shysmum said:



			I would be really interested in a discussion on these saddles and bridles imported from India, that are freely available in the UK, mainly via ebay. I would be really interested to know what actual saddlers have to say too 

In my search for a treeless saddle, and a bitless bridle, I have come across COUNTLESS items that have been made in India, and are offered at way below what you would expect to pay. These saddles and bridles are not tested in any way (indeed is any tack for safety and quality ), and Mr General Public is obviously keen to buy, as more and more of the stuff keeps appearing.

What I want to know is this - do people who buy this stuff realise exactly what they are buying, does it concern them, regarding their horse's welfare, and should there be a crackdown on these saddles/bridles coming in to the UK, in light of what they are made of, how they are made, and the potential of damage to the horse ??

I found this link when researching this ;http://www.google.co.uk/search?sour..._en-GBGB391GB391&q=cosmic+leathers+saddles+uk

Another one, for example,  is the guy who sells "awesome sexy treeless saddles" - my god, who buys from HIM ????

Also, many of the "named makes" are made in India, which you would not know unless you googled for some time  - would this influence your choice if you knew this, and do you think that all tack should have a "made in........" label applied ?

Just really interested what other peeps think. Should the industry be more regulated, or is the competition keeping prices of genuine stuff lower ???  

Click to expand...

I am currently looking for a treeles saddle.
 Do you mean the ones that are about £125 on Ebay, and come in about twelve colours?
  I looked at them but daughter said she was'nt keen on buying from India.


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## blitznbobs (9 May 2011)

I buy only British and German tack (mainly British) I would buy a cheap leather headcollar for a horse to wreck but my life is worth more than cheap tack and if I'm in trouble, I want to be able to rely on my equipment. I check my tack before every ride, and feel that anyone who wants to risk their lives in this way is welcome to do so - just don't expect me too...

BnBx


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## miss_molly (9 May 2011)

unicornleather said:



			It makes me laugh the people who avoid anything Indian like the plague but buy the cheap saddlery on ebay that is labelled "English leather" yes it's English leather BUT the actual bridle etc is made in India using Indian methods of "craftsmanship"  and Indian lorinery, (buckles,fittings etc) how many of you have had a "English" piece of saddlery that the buckles, hook studs, trigger hooks etc have broken, ever wondered why?
And the leather is so dry as it's been made here, shipped out on a boat to India, sat in their warehouse in the heat, then made into saddlery, then shipped back, then sat in a wholesalers warehouse for god knows how long, then in a shop or storage if online retailer finally you get it!
Leather loses moisture everyday whether it is used or not, so after it's first few months of life it is very dry and liable to break.I get "English leather" bridles in all the time to replace leather running and fixed loops, the originals are paper thin and bone dry.
The Indian saddles made in India using English leather again have Indian trees!
Now if you saw some of those you'd run amile!
Ever seen inside a Rhinegold synthetic saddle?
Believe me you wish you hadn't, Rhinegold is a name used by a certain wholesaler and the items are actually made yes, you guessed it, in India using either synthetic materials or German leather, it's one big con!
The wording on "English leather" saddlery is wrong, it IS English leather yes, but the way it is worded it gives people the impression it is made here instead of abroad. Don't let the retailers on ebay tell you otherwise!
I have to go out now but will be back later to answer any questions anyone has about it.
Oz 

Click to expand...

I agree with this. I was looking for a martingale at a horsey shopping event last year and was shown lots of english leather, which felt horrible and not what my expectations were. I figured it was english leather but not english craftsmanship. Lots of people were paying over the odds for it, i just walked away.


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## charlimouse (9 May 2011)

What well known brands are still made in the UK? (And more importantly which aren't?)

I assume Jeffries still make their tack in the Uk?


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## Ashgrove (9 May 2011)

Thermatex are made in Wales  and I think Harry Dabbs / Jaguar are made in Walsal.

Myler bits were made in China, but are now made in Vietnam.


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## unicornleather (9 May 2011)

shysmum said:



			Oz, really interesting - more please 

So it's not worth the fact that it's "English Leather" - what we should know about this stuff is that it is MADE in england, or more correctly made in INDIA.  And how do you find this out ? Well atm, you have to go to each manufacturer, and ask them where the stuff is made. And you'd be shocked :  That's IF they tell you the truth.

isn't it about time that the place of manufacture was a legal addition to the labelling ? I really think so, after this 6 month epic I've been on.

In fact, it would be interesting to contact all the sellers and ask them outright, and post the results ?
		
Click to expand...

Right I'm back, I will find you lot a typical Indian bridle and a typical "English leather" bridle but made possibly by the same little man out in india on ebay to show you, be back later, Oz


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## cptrayes (9 May 2011)

ngrace said:



			"I will only buy reins with buckles, not billets"


Whys that?

(sorry if i'm having a dim moment!)
		
Click to expand...

Billets break far too easily. They are like having a buckle done up only on the tongue of the buckle, with none of the rest of the buckle to hold it. They are also tucked inside and you can't see if they are dangerous. With a buckle you can check the stitching and see if the tongue is bending dangerously. I've had billets break on reins but never a buckle. Event riders are recommended to use buckled bridles for safety reasons.


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## unicornleather (9 May 2011)

First one is a show bridle supposedly made for the Rhinegold label and is pretending to be German, I have reported this ebayer time and time again to not only the wholesaler who sold them the bridle but ebay as well, what happened?
NOTHING of course, I got onto trading standards who investigated as it is fraud, what happened ,yes you guessed it NOTHING!
So I gave up look at the first pic

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BROWN-LEATHER...t=UK_Horse_Wear_Equipment&hash=item3367592f4d

Now look at this 

http://snowhilltradesaddlery.co.uk/productpage.php?Product=207

Yes economy means Indian!!
Seems familar?

Now look at this one

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Heritage-Padd...Horse_Wear_Equipment&var=&hash=item950396be6a

This is a "english leather" bridle made in India. Samuel Sharp are the manufactuers (tanners) of the leather NOT the makers of the bridle as some of the ebayers seem to think.IF you question the ebayers most of them haven't got a clue about where it comes from as they really are not in the trade so to speak or have been under the impression of it being made in england some have even stated in their auctions it is made in england and not just the leather made here, I soon got on to them and some don't believe me so what can you do?
I know I am right as I had an account with this wholesaler for 21 years or so and have been in the leather & saddlery trade for 23 years.
I have been banned from so many places because I have an opinion!!
I DO NOT like to see the public being conned by cheap imported saddlery that pretends to be made in england, it is very close to my heart as if you haven't already guessed!
I have tried to get the law changed to state WHERE the saddlery is made,not just the material it is made from but am banging my head against the wall.
Oz


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## unicornleather (9 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Billets break far too easily. They are like having a buckle done up only on the tongue of the buckle, with none of the rest of the buckle to hold it. They are also tucked inside and you can't see if they are dangerous. With a buckle you can check the stitching and see if the tongue is bending dangerously. I've had billets break on reins but never a buckle. Event riders are recommended to use buckled bridles for safety reasons.
		
Click to expand...

Billets are actually the leather pieces that go round the fitting whether they are buckles or hook studs, so you can have either hook stud billeted reins or buckled up billeted reins, Oz


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## Berpisc (9 May 2011)

Leather tanned abroad used to smell different (different tanning process maybe?) so maybe shipping English tanned but put together cheaply was seen as the way forward
I suppose you have to look out for English/wherever _manufacture_? 
You can tell its a long time since I have bought any tack
Some good info on this thread, thanks


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## ngrace (9 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Billets break far too easily. They are like having a buckle done up only on the tongue of the buckle, with none of the rest of the buckle to hold it. They are also tucked inside and you can't see if they are dangerous. With a buckle you can check the stitching and see if the tongue is bending dangerously. I've had billets break on reins but never a buckle. Event riders are recommended to use buckled bridles for safety reasons.
		
Click to expand...

Gutted, I much prefer stud billets! (purely for the looks...)


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## cptrayes (9 May 2011)

unicornleather said:



			First one is a show bridle supposedly made for the Rhinegold label and is pretending to be German, I have reported this ebayer time and time again to not only the wholesaler who sold them the bridle but ebay as well, what happened?
NOTHING of course, I got onto trading standards who investigated as it is fraud, what happened ,yes you guessed it NOTHING!
So I gave up look at the first pic

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BROWN-LEATHER...t=UK_Horse_Wear_Equipment&hash=item3367592f4d

Now look at this 

http://snowhilltradesaddlery.co.uk/productpage.php?Product=207

Yes economy means Indian!!
Seems familar?

Now look at this one

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Heritage-Padd...Horse_Wear_Equipment&var=&hash=item950396be6a

This is a "english leather" bridle made in India. Samuel Sharp are the manufactuers (tanners) of the leather NOT the makers of the bridle as some of the ebayers seem to think.IF you question the ebayers most of them haven't got a clue about where it comes from as they really are not in the trade so to speak or have been under the impression of it being made in england some have even stated in their auctions it is made in england and not just the leather made here, I soon got on to them and some don't believe me so what can you do?
I know I am right as I had an account with this wholesaler for 21 years or so and have been in the leather & saddlery trade for 23 years.
I have been banned from so many places because I have an opinion!!
I DO NOT like to see the public being conned by cheap imported saddlery that pretends to be made in england, it is very close to my heart as if you haven't already guessed!
I have tried to get the law changed to state WHERE the saddlery is made,not just the material it is made from but am banging my head against the wall.
Oz 

Click to expand...



I don't care where it comes from Heritage, Samual Sharp and Rhinegold bridles are absolutely great value for money and nothing like the cheap Asian imports either in the quality of their leather, the manufacture, or the smell. 

I have no connection with any of them except that I own 5 bridles and they are all these suppliers.

I have had problems with rusty buckles on a Heritage girth but I have another bought later of the same type with great buckles so it was just one batch.

I DO agree with you about proper labelling though, there is a difference between made in England and made in India.


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## unicornleather (9 May 2011)

Berpisc said:



			Leather tanned abroad used to smell different (different tanning process maybe?) so maybe shipping English tanned but put together cheaply was seen as the way forward
I suppose you have to look out for English/wherever _manufacture_? 
You can tell its a long time since I have bought any tack
Some good info on this thread, thanks
		
Click to expand...

Yes, Indian leather smells more like pigskin, it has it's own grain characteristic, feel & look.
The dye they use on Indian is not fixed very well and leaches onto the horse and rider backside (jods) it is an anilene dye which is carceogenic (sp) so should not be on either rider or horse's skin for any length of time, nasty stuff!
I tried to stitch some indian leather (hand stitch) once years ago,like stitiching through hardboard I'd imagine, never stitched it since, I don't touch it!
If it's what you want at a price you can afford then go for it, I have sold it too over the years but I make sure the customer knows what they are getting,whether it's pure indian leather & indian made saddlery or english leather saddlery made in in india.
Oz


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## cptrayes (9 May 2011)

Oz can you answer a question that has bugged me for years? WHY do Indian/Indian bridles have such short throatlashes?


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## cremedemonthe (9 May 2011)

unicornleather said:



			It makes me laugh the people who avoid anything Indian like the plague but buy the cheap saddlery on ebay that is labelled "English leather" yes it's English leather BUT the actual bridle etc is made in India using Indian methods of "craftsmanship"  and Indian lorinery, (buckles,fittings etc) how many of you have had a "English" piece of saddlery that the buckles, hook studs, trigger hooks etc have broken, ever wondered why?
And the leather is so dry as it's been made here, shipped out on a boat to India, sat in their warehouse in the heat, then made into saddlery, then shipped back, then sat in a wholesalers warehouse for god knows how long, then in a shop or storage if online retailer finally you get it!
Leather loses moisture everyday whether it is used or not, so after it's first few months of life it is very dry and liable to break.I get "English leather" bridles in all the time to replace leather running and fixed loops, the originals are paper thin and bone dry.
The Indian saddles made in India using English leather again have Indian trees!
Now if you saw some of those you'd run amile!
Ever seen inside a Rhinegold synthetic saddle?
Believe me you wish you hadn't, Rhinegold is a name used by a certain wholesaler and the items are actually made yes, you guessed it, in India using either synthetic materials or German leather, it's one big con!
The wording on "English leather" saddlery is wrong, it IS English leather yes, but the way it is worded it gives people the impression it is made here instead of abroad. Don't let the retailers on ebay tell you otherwise!
I have to go out now but will be back later to answer any questions anyone has about it.
Oz 

Click to expand...

Yes, I have had things break on my tack, had a clip on a rhinegold headcollar break and it wasn't really put under much strain, had keepers on bridles break as soon as I use them, the shop I returned it to told me it was me forcing the ends of the straps into them, I didn't use much force they just snapped in half.
I have had buckles break on bridles too, they were sold as Heritage off of ebay.
I would not touch any of these makes again and I think it is false economy as I am always replacing them so may as well save up and buy english made.
Great info, thanks unicorn, it makes sense now why my tack was always breaking!


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## unicornleather (9 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Oz can you answer a question that has bugged me for years? WHY do Indian/Indian bridles have such short throatlashes?
		
Click to expand...

You have me on that one!
I don't know is the answer, maybe they have skinnier horses out there, same as their cattle,they always seem skin and bone!
We have  measurements for making up bridles for off the peg, there can be a inch or two in it but it's usually near the mark, if we are making a bridle to fit the horse from measurements then we'd know how much to add and should get it spot on.
Off the peg bridles have to try to cater for all shapes and sizes, very hard to do.
Oz


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## cob&onion (9 May 2011)

Well this post has well and truely put me off buying leather new on ebay!!
Am looking for a nice stitched bridle for my mare, will go for a sabre or jeffries, its just not worth the risk!!

Saying that though i did buy a hunter bridle from there a few weeks back for the cob- says its german leather    j barclay & sons england is what it reads  can someone tell me about it?


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## unicornleather (9 May 2011)

Another one is James Stirling range yes english leather but bridles made in india!
The Blenheim range sold by same retailer and supplier is probably made by the same man  who makes the james sterling, (or his brother) but with indian leather!
I asked my shires rep (who was a ex saddler) so I got the truth from him as to where these ranges of tack are made.
Their  Hi LIte synthetic saddles too are made in India.
Oz


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## Tinseltoes (10 May 2011)

NOT all imported saddles are indian leather,some are from europe and better quality.My bridle is english leather but no makers name and it has a long throat lash and is lovely quality.My saddle is used and believe to be english,no makers name but you can see its not indian as the quality is good and better.


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## Rowreach (10 May 2011)

But even English made saddlery has altered in quality.  I have some beautiful double bridles which are about 40 years old and the leather is in fabulous condition and the bridles are still used regularly for showing.  These would have been used for hunting when they were first made, so have had a fair amount of wear over the years.

An English show bridle that I bought a couple of years ago, on the other hand, and which cost quite a bit, looks really quite cheap and the quality of the leather is not at all good.

The buckles and stud billets on imported tack are really quite scary


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## Kenzo (10 May 2011)

I wouldn't buy any leather work off ebay.

I like to see a bridle in the flesh, in a shop, so I can look at the quality, colour and stitching regardless of it's price, make or where it's made.

I've had a couple of the cheaper bridles (the not the really dirt cheap horrid ones) and providing you look after them, check them on a regualar basis and put a use by date on them, then for the price you get a few years out of them if you can't afford a more expensive bridle.

Interesting thread though.


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (10 May 2011)

Hey Really interesting thread here!!

Was wondering if anyone would be able to tell me anything about a saddle i bought in Italy. It's black leather eventing/showjumping saddle under the brand of 'supreme' has anyone heard of this brand?

Thanks 
xx


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## Shysmum (10 May 2011)

keeps logging me out - sent a long message and it's gone. Upshot is I am contacting manufacturers for info of where stuff is made, will report back.

Thanks so much for the replies 

three replies so far, all india, tho no mention in the listing.


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## spottydottypony (10 May 2011)

Unicorn leather what about the company called "Bell Busk Saddlery" selling stuff on ebay.  It is not cheap to buy (i have won bridles very cheaply in auction £7).  Im sure it says English leather.  The quality doesnot seem upto scratch though


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## Sanolly (10 May 2011)

So what would be a good 'budget' bridle made of English leather in England?


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## penhwnllys_stardust (10 May 2011)

What an interesting thread! I have been browsing ebay for a while now looking for a nice saddle and have found the infomation on here priceless. It would not of even crossed my mind to check where the saddle was made, if I had read 'English leather' I would of assumed it was made in England. Thanks for opening my eyes and saving me from a possible nasty accident.


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## Ashgrove (10 May 2011)

Can we do a list of English saddlery made in England?

As in a previous post, Harry Dabbs and Jaguar are made in walsal.

Anyone want to add to this list please.


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## unicornleather (10 May 2011)

Jeffries and the like are a good big brand name make.
Most saddlery produced in Walsall has a good reputation although there is one I can think of outside wallsall that makes saddles with home made soft plywood trees and dangerous manufacturing processes that is to be avoided at all costs!
The saddles look lovely on the outside but lurking inside is a minefield, I have 2 of the many I have had over the years in for repairs in my "chamber of horrors " in my workshop and until I stripped one down many years ago I too was taken in by the outwardly good appearance.
I won't openly name it on here as in this age of litigation I would get sued even if what I have said is true and I can prove it!
So, anyone who wants to know pm me.

Getting back to good bridles, we as traditional saddlers are trained to hand make saddlery, the greater the demand the faster you have to make them and then machinery starts to be added to the manufacturing process, so your standards will undoubtedly drop somewhat, fact of life I'm afraid.
I have 2 colleagues who are excellent bridle makers, I do if pushed make bridles but really don't have much time as I am concentrating on making my new products I have designed instead.
If anyone wants then names and details of my colleagues pm me and I will let you have their details.
Oz


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## BentleyBelly (10 May 2011)

A friend bought a cheapy saddle off ebay that from a distance looked really smart. Close up it was vile and actually smelt of curry! A saddler came do a routine check, we get both ponies done once a year and said it was only fit for the bin, it turned out the tree was several bits of wood stapled and screwed together, nasty.


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## unicornleather (10 May 2011)

spottydottypony said:



			Unicorn leather what about the company called "Bell Busk Saddlery" selling stuff on ebay.  It is not cheap to buy (i have won bridles very cheaply in auction £7).  Im sure it says English leather.  The quality doesnot seem upto scratch though
		
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Off to have a look, be back soon.
Can't find the business you mention, can you provide me with a link?
Oz


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## Wagtail (10 May 2011)

A friend of mine recently bought a jeffries bridle and was very disappointed. I am not kidding when I say she had to oil it 16 times before it started to lose its stiffness and the keepers are so tight it is really difficult to thread the straps through them.Could they have out surced some of their manufacturing?

I recently bought a German leather bridle off ebay. It was an FSS comfort bridle with a cream trim. Although I think it is generally quite good value for money, I am disappointed that the cream trim (which also lines the headpiece, browband and noseband) is plastic.


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## Meowy Catkin (10 May 2011)

Bell Busk
http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/riotenterprises/?_trksid=p4340.l2559

I have always saved up and bought Kieffer or Stubben bridles, are they actually made in Germany?


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## unicornleather (10 May 2011)

Not outsourcing as far as I am aware but as I said the bigger the name the quicker they have to make things, the best things to find a smaller saddlery manufacturer or a good saddler who can make you hand made items.The quality tends to be better, Oz


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## catkin (10 May 2011)

Far from cheap to buy in the first place, but in terms of 'cost per wear' a made to measure bridle for a young horse you intend to keep is a good investment. The last one I had made was equivalent in price to the better branded off-the-peg bridles, and I have got what I wanted right down to the buckle design and noseband width to suit this particular horse.
She is not likely to need another one for some years (the last fella had his for over 20 years of his riding career) and the only 'extra' bridlewear I have needed to get has been a pair of wet-weather reins and the occasional borrow of a drop noseband!


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## Meowy Catkin (10 May 2011)

'cost per wear'
		
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I agree that this demonstrates whether something was a good buy or not. 

My mare's Kieffer bridle is 5 years old now. I've had to replace the reins but the rest is still in brilliant condition and has many years left in it.


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## welshstar (10 May 2011)

I've just bought a m2m farrington saddle- it is stamped made in walsall so I'm under the impression that this is english made? (I hope so!) I think my saddle fitter said it is made by an individual saddler and not a 'conveyer belt' type system that some seem to do. The saddle is beautifully made and has taken hardly any breaking in. My previous saddle was a hilton- also stamped made in walsall. It was lovely quality but I think only a small firm. 

On the otherhand, we've bought a new jefferies before and wasn't impressed with the quality. I've seen tha new fieldhouse saddles in the tack shops and the quality for that has gone right downhill too. It's a shame that some good saddle names have declined in quality so much


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## unicornleather (10 May 2011)

You have yourself a nice saddle there!
Yes, made in Walsall.
Oz


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## FleabittenT (10 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			I don't care where it comes from Heritage, Samual Sharp and Rhinegold bridles are absolutely great value for money and nothing like the cheap Asian imports either in the quality of their leather, the manufacture, or the smell. 

I have no connection with any of them except that I own 5 bridles and they are all these suppliers.
		
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I agree with this. I too have a couple of Rhinegold/Heritage bridles, I've used them a lot (a lot!) over the last 3 years and they are still going strong. On a cost per use basis, they've proven excellent. 

I also have an Albion bridle for that I keep for 'best', and although the quality is better, I cetainly wouldn't slate the cheaper versions.

They do the job well, and as cptrayes says, are a world away from cheap exports in their quality. I don't mind where they're made, if it makes them affordable


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## cptrayes (10 May 2011)

Faracat said:



			I agree that this demonstrates whether something was a good buy or not. 

My mare's Kieffer bridle is 5 years old now. I've had to replace the reins but the rest is still in brilliant condition and has many years left in it.
		
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My hunter's Rhinegold and my dressage/hacker's Heritage are the same age as your Kieffers without a sign of wear on them, and they are used almost daily. 

As I said, I do have a Heritage girth with rusty buckles and Matthew Marlow failed to give me his address to send it back to for a replacement the two times I asked him, or to trun up when I asked him to meet he in his home town MacDonalds one morning. He also had the cheek to ask, even though it was bought directly off him through eBay with a full payment record whether it was actually his girth. So I would say, buy from someone with better customer service than Mr Marlowe, but in general his products are great value for money. The girth in question is  curved, padded, triple elasticated both ends and superbly designed. Even with rusty buckles it works fine and it would have cost twice as much to buy any similar one on the market. My shorter, later bought one is as good as the day it arrived and it has been in daily use for over two years.

Still wondering why the Indian made Indian leather bridle makers have not caught on to the fact that most horses need a throatlash two inches longer than the one they supply it with. If you want to know if an eBay listing is for a  really non-English low quality product, look at how tight, or how low down, the throatlatch is buckled:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Shires-Blenhe...Horse_Wear_Equipment&var=&hash=item950384744c


I have seen two Gallop standard quality bridles and they were seriously nasty with flawed leather, twisted stitching and weird sizing.


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## Shysmum (10 May 2011)

The replies   ^^ are really very interesting. 

I have emailed  the trading standards head office, and the main welfare charities, to ascertain their position regarding this imported tack.  I have said that both horses backs are suffering, and people are having accidents, using it. And as such, is there anything that can be done about labelling products as "made in India", and also a quality control being put in place, so that some of the more dubious makes are stopped altogether- although I do agree that some are much better than others, and do have a place in the market   I have pointed them in the direction of this thread, so hopefully they will look and see the photos.

I am not sure about my being able to "name" certain manufacturers, as the results come in, I really don't think I can. Which is a great shame.


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## Meowy Catkin (10 May 2011)

My hunter's Rhinegold and my dressage/hacker's Heritage are the same age as your Kieffers without a sign of wear on them, and they are used almost daily.
		
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They sound like they were a very good buy.  

I like to buy bridles 'in the flesh' from a tack shop, mainly because my mare has a tiny head!  I take a tape measure along and check that it will fit her and check the quality of the leather, stitching etc... My then local tack shop (TC Feeds & the Tack Haven  ) had a wide range of bridles but they didn't have any Rhinegold or Heritage at that time.


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## JessandCharlie (10 May 2011)

Very, very interesting! 

I bought a Rhinegold bridle on eBay for about £40 about 9/10 months ago. Used daily, still looks brand new. Ok, it's not the softest leather in the world, but it's not bad at all, and the leather on the inside of the padded bits is nice and soft! 

Now, in our local saddlers there is a rolled double bridle from a well know brand for...£775!!  It's really, really not that nice. Nice, but about as nice as my £30 leather headcollar. 

It hasn't sold. Surprisingly. 

Could anyone recommend me a nice quality, English leather, English made  (Or even an import, Kieffer?) black padded flash bridle? I don't mind paying a fair amount, but I'd like one for 'best' that will last me a while 

J&C


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## unicornleather (10 May 2011)

shysmum said:



			The replies   ^^ are really very interesting. 

I have emailed  the trading standards head office, and the main welfare charities, to ascertain their position regarding this imported tack.  I have said that both horses backs are suffering, and people are having accidents, using it. And as such, is there anything that can be done about labelling products as "made in India", and also a quality control being put in place, so that some of the more dubious makes are stopped altogether- although I do agree that some are much better than others, and do have a place in the market   I have pointed them in the direction of this thread, so hopefully they will look and see the photos.

I am not sure about my being able to "name" certain manufacturers, as the results come in, I really don't think I can. Which is a great shame. 

Click to expand...

I've done all this and all I got back was by current laws and guidlines, the wholesalers and manufacturers are not breaking any laws.
If it was food you have to label country of origin, but it seems saddlery is not worth bothering about.
I would be very interested to see how you get on as I lost patience!
One said they wanted to talk to an expert about it and never got back to me over it, ask any saddler about these wholesalers saddlery and you will get the same answers!
One thing puzzles me and maybe some of the legal buffs on here can answer this.
Some of the stables I used to attend to (Riding schools) had a insurance clause that they could not use any Indian saddlery as they weren't covered. IF the leather is english but the item is made in India including using indian buckles etc, where would they stand if say a hook stud broke on a bridle and the rider was injured as a result?
Food for thought!
Oz


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## unicornleather (10 May 2011)

I really haven't got a problem of what people buy whether it's top quality English made saddlery or imported economy saddlery, my main point is the deception by the wholesalers and manufacturers. I have sold and do sell the cheaper saddlery as there will always be a market for it BUT I do tell my customers where the item is made so they make an informed choice to buy it or not.
Oz


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## Meowy Catkin (10 May 2011)

J&C,







^ My Kieffer. It's got a subtle diamonte browband and is nicely padded, with a comfort headpiece. 

I also have a Stubben in chocolate (it does come in black) which is really lovely but I don't have any photos on my comp. The CTD (made by Stubben, I believe) range also looked very nice and is not quite so much money.


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## JessandCharlie (10 May 2011)

Perfic! Thank you  May I ask how long you've had your Stubben? I have one, but the noseband broke in three places! After 9 months  

While we're on the subject, what are everyone's opinions on rolled bridles? And would they make a chunkier horse's head look huge? 

J&C


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## Meowy Catkin (10 May 2011)

May I ask how long you've had your Stubben? I have one, but the noseband broke in three places! After 9 months
		
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That's terrible. I can't remember if they're guaranteed or not. I would contact Stubben and see if they would be willing to replace the noseband.

I've had mine for a year and it's fine, like new but softer.  I do have a horrible feeling that the filly might grow out of it.


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## JessandCharlie (10 May 2011)

Aah, it was some time ago it broke  never thought to check! 

Maybe I'll replace the noseband one day 

J&C


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## dumpling (10 May 2011)

What can anyone tell me about Pfiff saddles? Used to have one for a very short period of time. Now have an Oakfield which is lovely.


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## Custard Cream (10 May 2011)

Some of you may know me by my previous name of Equus Leather 

What we have found is that folk don't care where the stuff comes from unless it's cheap. The type of people who want cheap bridles and cheap saddles don't care that it is made in India or wherever. This is evident all the time as to make a handmade bridle from English Bridle Butt (JE Sedgwick), taking into consideration the fittings made in Walsall, the time and craftsmanship would cost upwards of £250 to make a small profit. Wy would folk pay that when they can buy a tatty one that looks like leather for £20? If it breaks buy another cheap one! Nobody buys proper stuff to last 
anymore 

Posted without reading all replies, sorry to those that do buy cheap bridles!


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## cptrayes (10 May 2011)

Custard Cream said:



			to make a handmade bridle from English Bridle Butt (JE Sedgwick), taking into consideration the fittings made in Walsall, the time and craftsmanship would cost upwards of £250 to make a small profit. Wy would folk pay that when they can buy a tatty one that looks like leather for £20? If it breaks buy another cheap one! Nobody buys proper stuff to last anymore 

Click to expand...

Why pay £250 if you can by a really nice looking Heritage/Rhinegold/Barclays/Sharp comfort padded, crank noseband bridle in pony cob full or extra full in black or brown from eBay for £50 or thereabouts?

Those of who live in keep-my-horse-to-ride-it-not-as-a-sindy-doll-to-dress-up land know that  there isn't THAT much difference between a £250 English made bridle and a DECENT £50 Indian made English leather bridle, other than probably the amount that the saddlers in Walsall were paid compared to those in Mumbai.

OZ is great, sell people what they want to buy, but be honest about where it came from. Perfick, I'd deal with you anytime Oz!


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## unicornleather (10 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Why pay £250 if you can by a really nice looking Heritage/Rhinegold/Barclays/Sharp comfort padded, crank noseband bridle in pony cob full or extra full in black or brown from eBay for £50 or thereabouts?

Those of who live in keep-my-horse-to-ride-it-not-as-a-sindy-doll-to-dress-up land know that  there isn't THAT much difference between a £250 English made bridle and a DECENT £50 Indian made English leather bridle, other than probably the amount that the saddlers in Walsall were paid compared to those in Mumbai.

OZ is great, sell people what they want to buy, but be honest about where it came from. Perfick, I'd deal with you anytime Oz!
		
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Cheques in the post!! 
Oz


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## Custard Cream (10 May 2011)

Cp - absolutely, totally agree with what you are saying. However, the bridle I have for my horse (luckily handmade by OH) is a bog standard hunter bridle, not sindy dress up  It's not feasible to be making bridles as there is not enough money in it, due to being undercut by the cheaper bridles. I imagine there is a certain difference in longevity between the two though?

Back on topic, I do agree that tack should be labelled with the country of origin of both materials and workmanship.


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## cptrayes (10 May 2011)

Well if my OH handmade bridles of course I'd have'em   MIne made some hanging flower basket brackets today, does that count???  I'll bet your bridle's absolutely beautiful, but I just can't justify paying that for them when I treat them the way I do!

Oz can you do cash ?


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## appylass (10 May 2011)

I have a Jeffries bridle that I bought with my old horse in 1993. It was well used then and lasted him until his death in 2003. It is now used on my youngster and is still perfectly good enough to show him in today. I will buy Jeffries, or equivalent, again. I don't begrudge paying for a quality product that is british made in its entirety. At the end of the day it is safety I'm paying for. I am very grateful there are still master craftsmen who make quality leatherwork in the UK but it surely must be a case of use them or lose them especially in view of the market being flooded with cheap imports.


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## unicornleather (10 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			Well if my OH handmade bridles of course I'd have'em   MIne made some hanging flower basket brackets today, does that count???  I'll bet your bridle's absolutely beautiful, but I just can't justify paying that for them when I treat them the way I do!

Oz can you do cash ?
		
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Oh if you like. I'm just too easy!
Oz


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## Cuffey (10 May 2011)

Apologies for not reading all responses but:

Our local saddler took one of these saddles apart during a demo evening
The tree was made of bits of pallet wood stapled together

Enough said................


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## spizwhizz (10 May 2011)

Oz - regarding your post about the riding schools and insurance, I would put a huge bet on them not paying out if the tack was manufactured in india even if english leather - anywhere they can replace the blame they will! Wonder how many RS realise their insurance could be invalid now?? Scary thought!


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## unicornleather (10 May 2011)

I was thinking the same thing.Maybe all of you who have tack insurance (for damage etc) is there anything in the small print about indian made saddlery?
Could you have a look and let me know, just out of interest?
Thanks, 
Oz


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## angel7 (10 May 2011)

Insider told me Fieldhouse saddles now made in Argentina (sp) with English leather


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## PapaFrita (11 May 2011)

angel7 said:



			Insider told me Fieldhouse saddles now made in Argentina (sp) with English leather
		
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A LOT of saddles are made in Argentina by Ruiz Diaz. On the plus side, RD are really very VERY good saddlers.

http://www.ruizdiaz.com/09/saddles.htm


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## foraday (11 May 2011)

I agree with Unicorn Leather and Custard Cream!

The general 'horse world' are looking for 'much cheapness' with EVERYTHING for their horses.  They do not care WHERE their tack is made or by whom!  They just look at the price tag and go HOW MUCH!  Then they go on ebay/car boot and grab a 'bargain' thinking they have bought the same 'Kieffer'.

I agree the possible way forward is labelling, however, even when labelled for example horse transport or instructors NO ONE bothers to read carefully, nor realise the complications SHOULD an accident happen-your horse insurance will not cover you!

The same is to be said about the horse transport industry!  Much cheapness is there too!  People just don't care!  They contact horse transport companies and then go with the 'baked bean' tin which will be several hundred pounds cheaper!   They do not care that these baked bean tins as reported in HH most weeks are dangerous!  Driven at 90mph!  And the fact that DEFRA only give them the 'Type 1' certification meaning less than 8 hours so really NATIONAL horse transport is out and yet you look on their websites they claim they are National and yet they aren't!  

Instructors!  That's another can of worms!!!

My question is would you knowingly put your baby or child into an unlicensed taxi and wave them off?

That really should be a no brainer!

So why oh why, do people use 'much cheapness' for everything they do with horses?  Then wonder why when things go wrong horse lame, horses back out so bucks like a rodeo, sounds like a question for Papa Frita's thread here!


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## Sanolly (11 May 2011)

Well I'm so glad that you are well enough off Foraday to not be worried about the cost of things in the middle of a recession. However some of us have financial issues that necessitate the need to cut costs wherever possible. Yes I have cheap tack, I have thorowgood saddles that will be replaced as soon as I can afford it. My cobs bridle was bought at a tack sale second hand, however it is a lovely bridle and well looked after, my new mare has a cheap bridle that again will be replaced as soon as finances allow, however for the moment these will have to do. My horses backs are done regularly so if the tack was causing any problems I would know.


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## Wolfie (11 May 2011)

I have a Collegiate bridle for every day wear. It is nicely padded, but seems to scratch easily, and the sizing is weird. It was supposed to be a show bridle but the FS is too small, so sits weirdly and thus is a work bridle with a Stuebben for shows. So where is Collegiate made? Is it actually "English" leather? More importantly, so I need to replace it for safety reasons?


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## unicornleather (11 May 2011)

Wolfie said:



			I have a Collegiate bridle for every day wear. It is nicely padded, but seems to scratch easily, and the sizing is weird. It was supposed to be a show bridle but the FS is too small, so sits weirdly and thus is a work bridle with a Stuebben for shows. So where is Collegiate made? Is it actually "English" leather? More importantly, so I need to replace it for safety reasons?
		
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At a guess I'd say it was made abroad, I don't sell that range it but when I looked collegiate up in my Equestrian Trade Directory there is no website just a email (weatherbeeta) which should give you a clue as everything they sell is usually imported.
I expect your bridle is sound enough, just be aware it can possibly be from abroad.Looking at photos of their riding bridles they do look like the imported ones.It has been massed produced using mostly machine methods. I can tell by the photos I have seen so far.

Any bridle listed just as "English leather bridle" and not"English leather bridle made by craftsmen in England" or words to that effect, should be a dead give away
Let's face it, if the bridle is made in England, you would want to boast about it to potential customers to help sell it, wouldn't you?

An English leather bridle is very different from a English MADE leather bridle, can you see the play of words, it's how the manufacturers and wholesalers fleece you!
As I said in one of my earlier posts, yes sell the cheap and cheerful if you must (I have) and the top of the range handmade as well as something in the middle which includes the english leather used to make the bridle in India to cater for everyone BUT just be honest about where it comes from. One ebayer was selling the economy range (indian leather, indian made) and passing it off as english leather and english made. Now most of you are experienced enough to know a india leather bridle from 50 feet away but there are novices just starting out in the world of horses who don't. It is a con!
Oz


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## cptrayes (11 May 2011)

spizwhizz said:



			Oz - regarding your post about the riding schools and insurance, I would put a huge bet on them not paying out if the tack was manufactured in india even if english leather - anywhere they can replace the blame they will! Wonder how many RS realise their insurance could be invalid now?? Scary thought! 

Click to expand...



Oh please! Get real .... are you seriously suggesting that Robinsons, RideAway, Derby House,  my local tack shop  and many other small tackshops are ALL leaving themselves open to being sued, in today's litigious climate, by selling imported leather tack by Kincade/Heritage/Rhinegold etc which is dangerous?

There is nothing dangerous whatsoever about my Indian made Heritage/Rhinegold/Samuel Sharp/Barclays bridles. The Barclays one was not great quality leather but its a LONG WAY from being dangerous. I've been hunting in imported reins (horror of horrors!!!) for two seasons and evented for six seasons before that and I have never had a buckled rein snap unless a horse trod on it. I have never had ANY bridle lorinery go rusty or break. I have never had ANY machine stitching on an imported bridle or girth come undone. I have never had ANY bridle leatherwork stretch unevenly. I had one rein stretch unevenly, returned it and promptly received a replacement. 

Some of us don't actually want to pay £150 to £200 for a bridle that, for us, does no more than a £50-60 one. Some of us just cannot afford it.  It's not OUR responsibility to save the hand-stitched bridle market, sorry.


Unicorn Leather can you explain to me how it is "fleecing me" to sell me a "Heritage English Leather" bridle for £60 when the alternative is an "English Made Leather Bridle" for at least £100?


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## Ranyhyn (11 May 2011)

I am currently looking to buy a second hand leather saddle and naturally ebay is my first stop.  It would have been my local master saddle but I don't fancy spending £800 on a *second hand* saddle.  It is a nightmare trying to sift through the crap on there.

What would be really helpful is if saddlers actually sold a decent selection of second hand english leather (and crafted) saddles for all budgets.  Which the one near me doesn't and I doubt ever will.


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## cptrayes (11 May 2011)

Kitsune if you kep looking on eBay and search by distance from you, then you can spot the ones that are close enough for you to go and see them before you bid. Then pay through Paypal, having seen what you are going to get, and you will be pretty safe if you stick to a good brand name like Albion/Kieffer etc. 

There is a real problem with second hand saddles at the moment that no-one seems to want to buy them. Everyone wants brand spanking new, when I think second hand ones are much better to ride in. A friend of mine was a case in point, moaning one minute about why no-one wants to buy any of her surplus saddles, and then when she needed a new one, buying brand new.

The upside is that you can get total bargains. My last WOW was only weeks old, cost £2000 new and I paid £950.


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## Hippona (11 May 2011)

Kitty- have a look at Rideaway and Saddles Direct- both sell quality second hand leather saddles- you have have them sent out to try and send back the ones you don't need.

ps....no, I don't work for either....never used SD but heard good stuff about them. I have bought and sold new and used saddles from Rideaway- at least its decent quality stuff and theres usually a pretty good selection.


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## Ranyhyn (11 May 2011)

Thanks both, I would only ever buy a second hand leather saddle TBH even if I had £2k going spare!  I like the feel of leather already broken in   I just don't see the point of getting a new saddle!  I'm a terrible skin flint  

Mind you, I have a different opinion about bridles   I generally don't get second hand bridles and Clover will have an Elevator, which apparently is english leather with english craftmanship.  I love Elevator


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## Shysmum (11 May 2011)

The BHS have advised me to contact this organisation, and I've just sent them an email -

http://www.beta-uk.org/

together with trading standards in London. 

I'll report back on any more info.   I just want to know how this unregulated stuff is allowed into the UK if it's not fit for purpose, and is likely to cause harm. On a mission now


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## unicornleather (11 May 2011)

Unicorn Leather can you explain to me how it is "fleecing me" to sell me a "Heritage English Leather" bridle for £60 when the alternative is an "English Made Leather Bridle" for at least £100?[/QUOTE]

Certainly, if retailers were honest I would not have a problem but they aren't alot of the time or are misinformed about where the products come from.
It is widely known that English craftsmanship, English leather and English lorinery is better than Indian craftsmanship,fact of life.
To buy a bridle that is labelled "English" in the belief that it is made here and pay just over  £60 odd quid for one that is actually made in India with Indian lorinery and English leather when you can buy a hand made bridle with English leather and English Lorinery made here for around £75 is wrong.
Not all hand made is £100 or over as you state, it depends where you buy but you are missing the point I am trying to make. It's the deception to the public that the 60 pound bridles are thought to be  MADE in England when it's indian leather equivalent possibly made at the same factory in india is a quarter of the price.That's the fleecing I was talking about.
I have had so many customers bring the English leather, imported bridles to me for repair in the belief they are made here and are very surprised when I tell them the truth.
I have been campaigning for years to get the labelling changed and educating people as to where the bridles are made and have met opposition from the wholesalers, apathy and ingnorance from trading standards so now it is time for someone else to have a go if they want a fairer system.
I don't have a problem with selling the stuff, just be honest where it is from and if the customers don't care, then fine, go ahead.I sell Indian leather saddlery too but it is made clear where it is from before they decide to buy it or not.


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## Ranyhyn (11 May 2011)

I agree people should be enabled to make an informed decision UL.


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## hairycob (11 May 2011)

I always thought that "English Leather" & "German Leather" referred to methods of tanning rather than location. So like can have Irish Cheddar cheese you could have English Leather that was made anywhere. Is that correct?


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## unicornleather (11 May 2011)

In the saddlery and leather trade in general English leather cannot be made anywhere but....England!
If it was made anywhere else it would not be English. 
Oz


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## Roasted Chestnuts (11 May 2011)

In regards to the bridles i would buy a cheap bridle to use everyday, I dont tend to spend over 25 quid for a bridle that my horse will be wearing at home everyday but I do tend to look for better for comps and showing so yes i would snap up a cheapy bridle or two no matter wheres its from anyday


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## Holly Hocks (11 May 2011)

Oz

I think you need to make it clear that the Heritage stuff being talked about on here is NOT Matt Marlow's stuff.  Matt's family had the original Heritage saddlery but failed to protect the name and then the name was used by the crappy trade saddlery which seem to sell to anyone  and everyone wanting to make a few quid. 
The only way to ensure you are getting the original Heritage stuff which is made in England is to buy directly from Matt.  He does sell on ebay, but his user name is MattyMarlow.  If you don't buy from him, then you are not getting original Heritage, made in England products.   
I have had a totally independant saddler come out to see two saddles made by Matt this evening as one of the saddles needs an adjustment now that the horse has expanded - she was impressed by the quality and fit of his saddles and she is a fussy lady!


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## unicornleather (11 May 2011)

Yes you are right Matt is a good mate of mine but to try to explain it as well as you have would take me all night, thanks you have done it for me!!
Oz


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## cptrayes (11 May 2011)

OK now I AM confused!!!

So my Heritage bridles from Matt are English/English, but my Rhinegold bridles are German leather/Indian made??

If that is the case then I can see no justification whatsoever for saying that English manufactured bridles have better lorinery and better craftsmanship than Indian, because when the name stud drops off, as they always do in the end, it is IMPOSSIBLE to tell which is the "better" bridle. In fact it is only possible to tell them apart at all by the slightly bigger size of a Rhinegold XF and the Heritage stamps on the buckles. 

If a stainless steel buckle does its job, does not rust and does not break, how is it possible for an English one to be "better" as people are suggesting?

I think some of the posters on here need to get up to date. Indian tack used to be guaranteed to smell foul and be badly made with dangerous leather, but times have changed and there is decent bridlework coming from Asia with good quality lorinery, straight and safe stitching, and very nice deep oiled leather at a great price. 

We need to learn to compete. Matt Marlow seems to be able to with Heritage, why can't more people?


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## Holly Hocks (11 May 2011)

cptrayes said:



			OK now I AM confused!!!

So my Heritage bridles from Matt are English/English, but my Rhinegold bridles are German leather/Indian made??

If that is the case then I can see no justification whatsoever for saying that English manufactured bridles have better lorinery and better craftsmanship than Indian, because when the name stud drops off, as they always do in the end, it is IMPOSSIBLE to tell which is the "better" bridle. In fact it is only possible to tell them apart at all by the slightly bigger size of a Rhinegold XF and the Heritage stamps on the buckles. 

If a stainless steel buckle does its job, does not rust and does not break, how is it possible for an English one to be "better" as people are suggesting?

I think some of the posters on here need to get up to date. Indian tack used to be guaranteed to smell foul and be badly made with dangerous leather, but times have changed and there is decent bridlework coming from Asia with good quality lorinery, straight and safe stitching, and very nice deep oiled leather at a great price. 

We need to learn to compete. Matt Marlow seems to be able to with Heritage, why can't more people?
		
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Hi Cptrayes

If your Heritage bridles have Heritage stamped on them, they are NOT Matt's.  He doesn't put stamps on his buckles, or a name badge on the bridle.  These are the trade saddlery Heritage ones...


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## cptrayes (11 May 2011)

Holly Hocks said:



			Hi Cptrayes

If your Heritage bridles have Heritage stamped on them, they are NOT Matt's.  He doesn't put stamps on his buckles, or a name badge on the bridle.  These are the trade saddlery Heritage ones...
		
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OK. My girths are Matt's though, I bought direct from him through eBay and one of those has terribly rusty buckles on it. My Treadstone Indian one has perfect buckles.


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## Ranyhyn (12 May 2011)

Heard of Martin Wilkinson anyone?


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## flyingfeet (12 May 2011)

Actually English leather and German leather are commonly used in the trade to describe how much stuffing is used in the tanning process. Even in Walsall the hides you buy are imported

Hides - English were not used due to warble fly, then due to the 30 month rule (too small). Countries with wire fences have also gone out of fashion. 

In the unlikely event that they are tanned here (I believe only 3 tanneries in operation), you'd pay a hefty premium. Generally luxury products like car interiors (think Morgan), have the market cornered. 

So Unicorn you may be "buying" english leather from Walsall, but are you 100% sure of what you are stitching? I'm not saying its not top quality, but just saying its a global market and the best product isn't English! 
If you are buying direct from say: http://www.bradford-hide.co.uk/ then I stand corrected, but think your bridles are too cheap if that is the case....

Also to say all English made bridlework is better than Indian is total *******s
There are craftsmen in India hand stitching where UK guys are using machines to save time. Its like saying that every English builder is better than every builder elsewhere! 

For that matter where do Scottish and Welsh saddler's stand?

So the answer is it all depends, however standards have increased and to find a bit of nasty Indian leather tanned with Fish oil and urine (rather than veg fat) is quite rare now, as it is not wanted. 

No one is trying to rip anyone off, with the cost of living in the UK, anyone who thinks they can get a bridle which is British hide tanned and made in the UK for under £100 is dreaming


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## BonneMaman (12 May 2011)

I would always prefer to buy top quality branded second hand than new rubbish.


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## Ashgrove (12 May 2011)

BonneMaman said:



			I would always prefer to buy top quality branded second hand than new rubbish.
		
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Totally agree with this


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## Meowy Catkin (12 May 2011)

Kitsune said:



			Heard of Martin Wilkinson anyone?
		
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Yes, Hertfordshire area I think. I'm sure that I had a saddle fitted by him many years ago.


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## Ranyhyn (12 May 2011)

That's good at least he exists, I found a website for him.  I am looking at one of his saddles 
http://www.martinwilkinson.com/webshaper/store/viewCat.asp?catID=341


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## michelleyork (12 May 2011)

Sorry if this has already been said, i have only skimmed through this post while at work 

I thought everything sold in the UK had to have a sticker or label saying 'made in...'?

I realise there are ways around this, slightly off topic but there is a certain ironing board manufacturer who states that they are made in the UK - when they are most certainly not I have seen the factories, BUT they do put some components on to the board in the UK which means that they can state MADE IN ENGLAND on the packaging.


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## Meowy Catkin (12 May 2011)

Kitsune said:



			That's good at least he exists, I found a website for him.  I am looking at one of his saddles 
http://www.martinwilkinson.com/webshaper/store/viewCat.asp?catID=341

Click to expand...

St Albans would fit (although I have a feeling that he might have been in Redbourn at that time) as it's not too far from where I used to live. 

The saddle was lovely and very well fitted by MW himself.


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## Ranyhyn (12 May 2011)

Fab  lets hope I bagged a bargain, I sent an email to him asking if he could tell me whether the saddle was one of his own or not - so we'll see.  Still, looks like a lovely saddle and the seller has excellent feedback.


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## Shysmum (12 May 2011)

I think it's clothes and food that has to state place of manufacture   Not sure on that one..


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## Orchardbeck (12 May 2011)

My dad used to be a technical manager at a leather tannery in Carlisle who made specialist leather (his claim to fame is that he once processed some leather for a cream coat to be worn by Sporty Spice on their final tour...dubious I know!) before they closed in the early Noughties as everything was  being made in Bangladesh. He also worked at one in Hull although I'm not sure how many other tanneries of English leather are still around today. 

I had an interesting find in the bargain bin of our local feedshop - they had apparently found a box of bridles and other assorted leather items 'in the back' that had been there for about 10 years, unopened. They put them on sale for about £19 a bridle. I had a ratch through, and decided to buy one - when I got it home, it was stamped Made in England, and was indeed english leather - lovely and soft, just needed a good clean and soaping. Needless to say I nipped in to the shop and bought another, along with a lovely breastplate. When I peeled off the sale tags, I found my bridle had been on sale for £89 previously...! Bargain! The guy who owned the feed shop didn't have a clue about the quality of them, and I wasn't about to tell him! 

My last bridles were black GFS ones - they were horrible. Yes they were £50, but I would have expected better than that - I had two and the quality was totally different for the same design. Interesting if they are made in Argentina, as a friend had an old one and hers was lovely.


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## Jane_Lou (12 May 2011)

Kitsune said:



			Fab  lets hope I bagged a bargain, I sent an email to him asking if he could tell me whether the saddle was one of his own or not - so we'll see.  Still, looks like a lovely saddle and the seller has excellent feedback.
		
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He is one of the saddlers that makes his own basged "ideal" saddles - they are lovely! I have a couple of VSD's of his of variaous ages and they are lovely saddles, if you have found one at a good price then grab it!


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## marmalade76 (12 May 2011)

Wagtail said:



			A friend of mine recently bought a jeffries bridle and was very disappointed. I am not kidding when I say she had to oil it 16 times before it started to lose its stiffness and the keepers are so tight it is really difficult to thread the straps through them.Could they have out surced some of their manufacturing?
		
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I bought a Jeffries drop noseband (from their 'traditional' range) recently and haven't oiled it at all. The best way to supple up leather is to use it.


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## Ranyhyn (12 May 2011)

Jane_Lou said:



			He is one of the saddlers that makes his own basged "ideal" saddles - they are lovely! I have a couple of VSD's of his of variaous ages and they are lovely saddles, if you have found one at a good price then grab it!
		
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That's great news, thanks, paid under £200 for it  not like me to be lucky!


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## unicornleather (12 May 2011)

Jen_Cots said:



			Actually English leather and German leather are commonly used in the trade to describe how much stuffing is used in the tanning process. Even in Walsall the hides you buy are imported

Hides - English were not used due to warble fly, then due to the 30 month rule (too small). Countries with wire fences have also gone out of fashion. 

In the unlikely event that they are tanned here (I believe only 3 tanneries in operation), you'd pay a hefty premium. Generally luxury products like car interiors (think Morgan), have the market cornered. 

So Unicorn you may be "buying" english leather from Walsall, but are you 100% sure of what you are stitching? I'm not saying its not top quality, but just saying its a global market and the best product isn't English! 
If you are buying direct from say: http://www.bradford-hide.co.uk/ then I stand corrected, but think your bridles are too cheap if that is the case....

Also to say all English made bridlework is better than Indian is total *******s
There are craftsmen in India hand stitching where UK guys are using machines to save time. Its like saying that every English builder is better than every builder elsewhere! 

For that matter where do Scottish and Welsh saddler's stand?

So the answer is it all depends, however standards have increased and to find a bit of nasty Indian leather tanned with Fish oil and urine (rather than veg fat) is quite rare now, as it is not wanted. 

No one is trying to rip anyone off, with the cost of living in the UK, anyone who thinks they can get a bridle which is British hide tanned and made in the UK for under £100 is dreaming
		
Click to expand...

I buy from http://www.jfjbaker.co.uk/index.php good leather from Devon, not from Walsall.

Again, the point I am making is wholesalers and manufacturers should tell people where the saddlery is made so they can choose to buy it or not. It's not about ripping people off with just the amount of money they charge for indian saddlery made using english leather.
You are splitting hairs about Scottish,Welsh saddlers that is not what I was on about, there are all good in their own right as are Irish saddlers.

Hand made or machined indian saddlery still has to use indian lorinery which is not as good as the stainless steel lorinery in use in the UK. That is a fact ,ask any saddler you will get the same answer.The imported english leather saddlery has also spent possibly months in storage before the customer gets it, leather will dry out over time even if it is new and unused so leather items made here and sold sooner will retain far more fat content then imported saddlery.
I wouldn't say all English made bridlework is better as you have said, most of it but not all, you'll always get an exception.
Oz


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## cptrayes (12 May 2011)

unicornleather said:



			Hand made or machined indian saddlery still has to use indian lorinery which is not as good as the stainless steel lorinery in use in the UK. 
Oz 

Click to expand...

Oz, if a stainless steel buckle works, does not rust, does not break and looks the same in use on a bridle, how is it possible for an English made one to be "better"?


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## unicornleather (12 May 2011)

That's just it, they don't always use stainless steel, often it's nickel plated steel or brass with internal flaws and the stainless they do use often isn't fettled off properly leaving sharp edges that aren't seen on the made up bridlework from the outside as they are behind the turns.You don't know they are there until the leather fails due to the rough edges cutting into it.


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## cptrayes (12 May 2011)

I've never experienced any of that and I keep my tack in very challenging conditions where everything that will rust rusts and everything that will mould moulds. I know there is some VERY nasty Asian tack available but Heritage/Rhinegold bridles are not among them from my experience. In fact, the only lorinery I have had any problems with in the last ten years has been on an English made English leather girth from the original Heritage brand, which has severely rusty buckles. The blanket condemnation of Asian tack by some people on this thread is simply out of date.


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## unicornleather (12 May 2011)

That's your opinion but not mine
I wil give credit where credit is due on any saddlery from any country but in 23 years of being in the trade I have yet to see any worth credit from Asia


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## cptrayes (12 May 2011)

You wouldn't count this bridle, been in daily use including regularly in the conditions you see there for five years and not a peep of trouble from it ? It costs £50 today, I've just bought another. One of the lovely things about them being such good value is that I can afford to have my expensive bling browband on a bridle that I keep only for competition, to save the crystals getting dirty the rest of the time. The equivalent bridle English made is over twice as much and I really cannot see where the additional value is myself. They are Asian import reins too and I can tell you that horse can take one hell of a pull when the hounds are running 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IaGqwoQlnmA/TOvlktjYQHI/AAAAAAAAAqg/NHHYx77wYNo/s1600/Coming+Down+WR.jpg


You're entitled to your opinion of course, but there are thousands of happy hackers in this country who perceive value in the Asian tack that they use day in day out and if English bridlework can't compete then it will be operating in a niche market only.


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## Amaranta (12 May 2011)

I must admit, I have two Heritage 'Indian made' bridles, one of them is around 8 years old, not a sign of rust on it, the other is about 3 years old and ditto.  When I got my first bridle, my friend bought an Elevator bridle, we compared the two and there was very very little in it, except, of course about £100!  Interestingly, my older Heritage is still going strong, her Elevator stretched and became unusable - go figure 

I do, however, agree with labelling and that the statement 'English Leather' is very misleading.


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## thespanishmane (12 May 2011)

unicornleather said:



			You have me on that one!
I don't know is the answer, maybe they have skinnier horses out there, same as their cattle,they always seem skin and bone!
We have  measurements for making up bridles for off the peg, there can be a inch or two in it but it's usually near the mark, if we are making a bridle to fit the horse from measurements then we'd know how much to add and should get it spot on.
Off the peg bridles have to try to cater for all shapes and sizes, very hard to do.
Oz 

Click to expand...

Short throat latch - you were lucky - I have an equus bridle, and it has a one so  long I could use it as a skipping rope! - Nice noseband though, but crap fit.....got full size for 16hh spanish boy, and is HUGE.......however straps are all 'squishy' at the ends and are a bugger to get through the keepers as either the keepers are too small, or the straps are too fat.  Was bought a Spanish bridle for Christmas and that seemed to be made of two layers of awful leather stitched on top of each other - really thick and impossible (almost) to assemble bridle - tut tut tut - grumpy old woman alert!


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## 0ldmare (12 May 2011)

I think the point is not that we shouldn't buy indian made bridles, its that we should be able to make an informed decision. The labeling should make it clear where it was made instead of using trickery to suggest its UK made.

I have an Elevator bridle and its beautiful, quite old now but fab soft leather. Its uk made. I also have an indian made Heritage bridle and its fine, but I knew it was indian made when I bought it. However, I almost didn't buy it because I dislike their marketing trickery. 

Mind you clothing seems to be even more of a minefield (not that your likely to die if your fleece jumper falls apart  ) but almost any change to the garment seems to allow you to declare it was made in the UK. We were approached to re-label a load of garments, basically to snip the Made in China labels out and replace with Made in the UK. When I questioned I was told that the act of sewing in the new label would make it legit  No idea if what they told me is true, but we declined the work......Mind you it puzzles me why the bother since virtually all clothing seems to made in China .


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## unicornleather (12 May 2011)

0ldmare said:



			I think the point is not that we shouldn't buy indian made bridles, its that we should be able to make an informed decision. The labeling should make it clear where it was made instead of using trickery to suggest its UK made.

I have an Elevator bridle and its beautiful, quite old now but fab soft leather. Its uk made. I also have an indian made Heritage bridle and its fine, but I knew it was indian made when I bought it. However, I almost didn't buy it because I dislike their marketing trickery. 

Mind you clothing seems to be even more of a minefield (not that your likely to die if your fleece jumper falls apart  ) but almost any change to the garment seems to allow you to declare it was made in the UK. We were approached to re-label a load of garments, basically to snip the Made in China labels out and replace with Made in the UK. When I questioned I was told that the act of sewing in the new label would make it legit  No idea if what they told me is true, but we declined the work......Mind you it puzzles me why the bother since virtually all clothing seems to made in China .
		
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Yes, oldmare, this is the point I have been trying to make not whether the indian made is good or not, I have my own opinions on that as does everyone else. As you have said, it's the trickery involved to make people think it is made here instead of abroad.
Oz


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## 0ldmare (12 May 2011)

What's sad Oz is that, ultimately, we are going to devalue genuine UK made saddlery. BETA ought to grow some for once. Maybe the answer is to provide special labels that can only be used on entirely UK made items, rather than approaching it the other way round.


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## unicornleather (12 May 2011)

I couldn't agree with you more!
Oz


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