# A terminology question!!



## Alec Swan (6 December 2011)

Today it seems,  everybody seems to use the term _*"The Hunt".*_

Now am I wrong in this?  Should it not be _Hounds_,  or _The Pack?_  Or better still the name of the pack?

When I was younger,  we were told that Hounds would Meet.

We were told that Hounds would be with us on whenever.

We were told that hounds found at Bubbly Wood,  or wherever.

The Hunt,  seems so impersonal to me.  The Shoot,  also irritates me,  Guns will meet at 0930,  for instance.

Am I just being a picky old man?   The more exacting amongst you,  will put me right,  I feel sure! 

Alec.


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## JenHunt (6 December 2011)

I think it's just one of those things, like the way people refer to 'the company' when talking about decisions being made at work, or 'the family'...

but agree, I was always told that hounds would meet at this pub or that farm, or hounds went well...


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## Rowreach (6 December 2011)

I'm with you on this one Alec   I've just written a guide for children to introduce them to hunting, and I've been very accurate with the terminology 

And I loathe the way people nowadays refer to "huntsmasters"  -  ugh


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## Alec Swan (6 December 2011)

Rowreach said:



			.......
And I loathe the way people nowadays refer to "huntsmasters"  -  ugh 

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Oh God,  it's getting worse!! 

It's nothing to do with snobbery,  but everything to do with what's right,  and that which should be preserved,  in my view.

Our Red Topped daily journals wont listen,  but those children who read your book,  may just learn!

A.

Ets,  I remember a wonderful line,  from here,  where some one quoted another,  when they said "Their not Dawgs,  their Hynds".  It still makes me smile!! a.


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## Judgemental (6 December 2011)

Rowreach said:



			And I loathe the way people nowadays refer to "huntsmasters"  -  ugh 

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Could this be something of Europe creeping into the terminology bearing in mind Herman Goering was, literally translated: Hunting Master of the Reich, in German: The Reichsjaegermeister.


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## oakash (6 December 2011)

Well, I am disappointed at the daily newspapers you chaps are reading! Yes, there are tremendous and unfathomable levels of ignorance displayed in newspaper articles about hunting, but generally newspapers such as the 'Telegraph' seem to have a few informed writers who make sure the terminology is reasonably accurate. Of course, since we are meeting to go trail hunting then it does seem a bit picky to be criticizing.


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## VOM (6 December 2011)

It's not one I've thought about before but your probably right Alec.



Rowreach said:



			I'm with you on this one Alec   I've just written a guide for children to introduce them to hunting, and I've been very accurate with the terminology 

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Great idea Rowreach, where can I get hold of a few copies.


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## Alec Swan (7 December 2011)

It isn't just the garbage printed in the bulk of the press,  it's in everyday usage,  it seems.

My grand daughter said to me the other day,  "The hunt will be this way next week,  we'd better bring the youngsters in".  "It's HOUNDS,  child,  or the West Norfolk",  I told her.  That earned a scowl!!  I suspect that my g-d sees me as an old fuddy-duddy,  and she may well be right!! 

A.


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## TwoPair (7 December 2011)

I sometimes say it without realising - if they are hunting this way I will say 'they're meeting at' or 'they're hunting this way'. If I am ringing the secretary to ask if it is okay to come (yes, I still do that!) I ask where hounds are meeting, where second horses are, and where is the preferred parking spot. Sometimes when I'm talking I'll say 'the hunt' but I usually say 'the Cottesmore'. I think I do a bit of the both - which now you mention it I am feel thoroughly ashamed and will be more conscious! I better not say too loudly that I have my hunting test


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## Herne (7 December 2011)

"Stirrup cup" is one that gets me.

It's an expression that, in my experience, actual hunting people - sorry, hound people  - never use and yet the press and everyone else can't stop chirping on about it.

And, yes, being referred to as a "huntmaster" does slightly chafe, too


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## Rowreach (7 December 2011)

VOM said:



			It's not one I've thought about before but your probably right Alec.



Great idea Rowreach, where can I get hold of a few copies.
		
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I wrote it for my children who, sadly, haven't had the sort of intro to hunting that I had as a child, but who want to do their hunting test.  I was so unimpressed by the little green leaflet that the PC produced that I thought I'd write a few notes for them, which has turned into a bit of a book   There are a few branches which I've sent copies to (friends of mine ) but I'd quite like to get it properly pubished.

I'm now working on a series of teaching children to ride books - because I don't like the way it's done  and I'm fed up with having to un-teach teenagers


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## Bernster (7 December 2011)

As a relative newbie to hunting, I think I need your book please 

One for the Christmas list!


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## Rowreach (7 December 2011)

lol, not sure it'll get to the shelves by THIS Christmas


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## Bernster (7 December 2011)

Blast it - I shall endeavour to keep my trap shut in the meantime then, to avoid placing my foot in it   And will have a read of the HHO newbie pages too !


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## EAST KENT (8 December 2011)

You are so right Alec, I got blasted on one thread on here for saying it is "hounds"  and they are not "dogs" ,incredible is`nt it! It really makes my teeth itch when incorrect terms are used..and vigorously defended by their users. My other media gripe is when the field are referred to as "huntsman" Grrrgh.
    You would think everyone would want to be correct,after all if you learn a foreign language a pigeon form won`t do!


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## Judgemental (8 December 2011)

Herne;10221408And said:
			
		


			Herne I am sure you would at this time, wish to keep Ms Merkle happy and become the Jaegermeister.

After all, if a new treaty is enacted for an EU fiduciary super state and we the UK do not sign, then all those farmers and landowners can say goodbye to all the single farm payments and similar.    

Coupled to a massive depreciation in the price of agricultural land.

Yes, our Dave - (That's the Rt Hon David Cameron MP First Lord of the Treasury) has a problem and that's putting it mildly.
		
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## tootsietoo (8 December 2011)

Oh yes, it does irk me when my non-horsey non-hunting husband says, for instance, "we'll come with you to the hunt on Saturday" when he means he will be coming to the meet!

Having said that, our little annual information booklet is entitled "The ......... Hunt Ltd" so it wouldn't be incorrect to call it "The Hunt" when you are referring to the whole organisation I wouldn't have thought.  Also, I think it doesn't sound wrong to say "the hunt crossed our land yesterday" because that to me indicates the whole caboodle - hounds, huntsman, field.

But generally I agree with East Kent's itching teeth feeling!  The stirrup cup thing is quite odd.  Where on earth did that originate from?


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## Alec Swan (8 December 2011)

tootsietoo said:



			.......  Also, I think it doesn't sound wrong to say "the hunt crossed our land yesterday" because that to me indicates the whole caboodle - hounds, huntsman, field.
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Now then,  that's just the usage which I object to!!  "Hounds crossed our land today",  "The mounted field",  anything but _"The Hunt"_.  It's awful!!  

Toots,  this is all a bit tongue in cheek,  though I do find it rather irksome! 

Alec.


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## Judgemental (8 December 2011)

The Stirrup Cup - Courtesy of Wikipedia - for a moment I thought it was going to be one of those Americanisims that had fetched up in our venacular. 

"A stirrup cup is a "parting cup" given to guests, especially when they are leaving and have their feet in the stirrups. It is also the traditional drink (usually port or sherry) served at the meet, prior to a traditional foxhunt. The term can describe the cup that such a drink is served in.

In Scots the host may well, in inviting his guest to stay briefly for that farewell drink, call it a "dochan doruis" (from Scottish Gaelic deoch an dorais, literally "drink of the door").

In Anya Seton's Katherine the custom occurs frequently before English royalty and nobility leave on travels abroad or progresses. In G.G. Coulton's Chaucer and his England it is referred to in relation to the Canterbury pilgrims setting out. It is also used in a number of Rosemary Sutcliff's historical novels set in England after the Norman Invasion".

Perhaps we should all feel better about the expression now we know it something reserved for ENGLISH Royalty and Nobility.


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## JenHunt (9 December 2011)

Judgemental said:



			The Stirrup Cup - Courtesy of Wikipedia - for a moment I thought it was going to be one of those Americanisims that had fetched up in our venacular. 

"A stirrup cup is a "parting cup" given to guests, especially when they are leaving and have their feet in the stirrups. It is also the traditional drink (usually port or sherry) served at the meet, prior to a traditional foxhunt. The term can describe the cup that such a drink is served in.

In Scots the host may well, in inviting his guest to stay briefly for that farewell drink, call it a "dochan doruis" (from Scottish Gaelic deoch an dorais, literally "drink of the door").

In Anya Seton's Katherine the custom occurs frequently before English royalty and nobility leave on travels abroad or progresses. In G.G. Coulton's Chaucer and his England it is referred to in relation to the Canterbury pilgrims setting out. It is also used in a number of Rosemary Sutcliff's historical novels set in England after the Norman Invasion".

Perhaps we should all feel better about the expression now we know it something reserved for ENGLISH Royalty and Nobility.
		
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very interesting JM... one learns something new everyday! 

if, however, this is the explanation given on a site so widely used as wikipedia then it's no wonder that the general public think that all people who go hunting are landed gentry, the nouveau riche and so on!


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## ester (9 December 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			Now then,  that's just the usage which I object to!!  "Hounds crossed our land today",  "The mounted field",  anything but _"The Hunt"_.  It's awful!!  

Toots,  this is all a bit tongue in cheek,  though I do find it rather irksome! 

Alec.
		
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but what if they all crossed your land today! hounds, staff and field!


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## Alec Swan (9 December 2011)

ester said:



			but what if they all crossed your land today! hounds, staff and field! 

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Well,  correctly it would be hounds,  and that would include the whole ensemble,  unless they were lost!!  If someone wished to claim the complete list..........fine by me!!  Just as long as it isn't,  "The Hunt"!! 

Alec.


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## Judgemental (9 December 2011)

Now we are effectively out of Europe, perhaps some of our traditional values and old established modus operandi, including terminology, will be restored.


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## Fiagai (9 December 2011)

Herne said:



			"Stirrup cup" is one that gets me.

It's an expression that, in my experience, actual hunting people - sorry, hound people  - never use and yet the press and everyone else can't stop chirping on about it.

And, yes, being referred to as a "huntmaster" does slightly chafe, too
		
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Well thats fine and dandy Herne but WRONG...

I often heard my grandmother who hunted at the turn of the century use the term stirrup cup AND she did "HUNT" or maybe as you suggest that should be "HOUNDED"!  Talking of hounds.... 

The term "Stirrup Cup" may have fell out of use amongst what my grandmother would have refered to as the younger set, but this term has a long history and had been passed down to some...




			Stirrup-Cup

A parting glass drunk on horseback when taking leave

"Boy! lead our horses out: when we get up,
Wee'l have with you a merry stirrup cupp"

Praise of Yorkshire Ale (1697), p, 27
		
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LINK


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## Judgemental (9 December 2011)

Fiagai said:



			Well thats fine and dandy Herne but WRONG...

I often heard my grandmother who hunted at the turn of the century use the term stirrup cup AND she did "HUNT" or maybe as you suggest that should be "HOUNDED"!  Talking of hounds.... 

The term "Stirrup Cup" may have fell out of use amongst what my grandmother would have refered to as the younger set, but this term has a long history and had been passed down to some...
		
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Fiagai you are so correct; the expression is immensely old and goes back to the time when everybody simply had to ride, in order to get from A to B.

It was the custom, especially when taking your leave, your host would ensure that you were offered the best wine or drink that they had, by way of a) gesture of good will and bidding one bon voyage, but also b) to &#8216;warm&#8217; you on your way.

When one had to ride many miles, a good alcoholic drink once you were in the saddle was very welcome. Especially when one had to ride no matter what the weather was doing.

If one cares to Google or Yahoo, it is surprising just how much reference there is to ancient Stirrup Cups. Indeed there is much reference to ecclesiastical connections and in some instances, the wine being proffered in the form of a chalice and having been blessed etc.

Coupled to Bishops and Clergy who went on a &#8216;progress&#8217; and were partial to a good tipple whilst in the saddle, going about their people.  

I will concede that until the subject was raised on this forum, I was of the &#8216;irritated&#8217; contingent as to the use of certain expressions where &#8216;The art of venery' is concerned, but upon research have changed my view somewhat on this particular expression.


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## Herne (10 December 2011)

Fiagai said:



			Well thats fine and dandy Herne but WRONG...
		
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Sorry, Fiagai, not "WRONG", because I was quite careful to say that hunting people never use it *in my experience*. I did not say that it was never used.




			The term "Stirrup Cup" may have fell out of use amongst what my grandmother would have refered to as the younger set
		
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It's certainly a possibility. However, I find it odd that a group of people who hold on to their traditions and their weird terminology almost to the point of fault should choose to let this particular relatively innocuous term slip if it was indeed at one time in common useage amongst Hunting folk - especially as there is no shortage of reminders out there as you say.

I am inclined to consider the possibility that whilst some drinks offered to some people on horseback under some circumstances were called "stirrup cups", that does not necessarily mean that all drinks offered to people on horses should be called "stirrup cups".

Indeed, most of the refererences cited here so far are from non-hunting circumstances, and refer to a drink given to someone upon leaving whereas in hunting, the drink tends to be proffered upon arrival at the meet.





			I often heard my grandmother who hunted at the turn of the century use the term stirrup cup AND she did "HUNT"...
		
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Again, interesting to wonder why it has now gone out of fashion?


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## Herne (10 December 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			Today it seems,  everybody seems to use the term _*"The Hunt".*_

Now am I wrong in this?  Should it not be _Hounds_,  or _The Pack?_  Or better still the name of the pack?
		
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I'm pretty much in agreement with you on this one.

I don't use the expression "The Hunt" when referring to actual hunting activities. "Hounds will be meeting at..." is what I was brought up to say.

However, I do use it when referrring to the Hunt as an all-encompassing entity in non-hunting circumstances - especially to other people within the Hunt. I would say: "The Hunt is going to raise Funds for the Air Ambulance this year", for example.


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## Fiagai (11 December 2011)

Herne said:



			Sorry, Fiagai, not "WRONG", because I was quite careful to say that hunting people never use it *in my experience*. I did not say that it was never used.

It's certainly a possibility. However, I find it odd that a group of people who hold on to their traditions and their weird terminology almost to the point of fault should choose to let this particular relatively innocuous term slip if it was indeed at one time in common useage amongst Hunting folk - especially as there is no shortage of reminders out there as you say

I am inclined to consider the possibility that whilst some drinks offered to some people on horseback under some circumstances were called "stirrup cups", that does not necessarily mean that all drinks offered to people on horses should be called "stirrup cups".

Indeed, most of the refererences cited here so far are from non-hunting circumstances, and refer to a drink given to someone upon leaving whereas in hunting, the drink tends to be proffered upon arrival at the meet.

Again, interesting to wonder why it has now gone out of fashion?
		
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My dear Herne I have no real idea why it has fallen out of fashion maybe a historian of language usage would be more qualified to give a reason...

Neither do I have an encyclopedic knowledge of the usage of the term, however I can cite my personal knowledge and its usage up to realtively modern times and I suspect that an increase in the use of hip flasks may have somewhat replaced the tradition of the stirrup cup.

As for being offered on arrival at the meet - surely this is also the occasion of departure as well?


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## Herne (12 December 2011)

Fiagai said:



			As for being offered on arrival at the meet - surely this is also the occasion of departure as well?
		
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Possibly - although as it is at the start of the day, and with people who you will be with for most of the day and the chances are you may well be returning to the same place at the end of the day, I would still opt for the arrival side of things myself. However, I concede it is a moot point.

As for why it has fallen out of fashion, was it ever really in fashion in hunting circles? 

Given the general unchanging nature of hunting terminology, I still suspect not.

Will we ever know? Also, I suspect not...

(Do we really care? Once again.... )


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## Fiagai (12 December 2011)

Herne said:



			Possibly - although as it is at the start of the day, and with people who you will be with for most of the day and the chances are you may well be returning to the same place at the end of the day, I would still opt for the arrival side of things myself. However, I concede it is a moot point.

As for why it has fallen out of fashion, was it ever really in fashion in hunting circles? 
Given the general unchanging nature of hunting terminology, I still suspect not.
Will we ever know? Also, I suspect not...
(Do we really care? Once again.... )
		
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Re Hunting circles, alas I have provided my humble personal knowledge of the term being in use up to at least the turn of the century...as I said I suspect the mass production of the hip flask may have had a role to play in its gradual demise

Anyone else with any living hunting elders out there?  Perhaps a chat about old times may elicit some further information.  My grandmother loved to talk about her experiences in the hunting field and relived many happy times

As to do we care, I believe it was highlighted by your good self so I agree maybe not, but on the other hand it is always good to learn new things is it not...


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## tootsietoo (12 December 2011)

Ah, I do love a pedantic discussion!  Although I don't suppose the H&H forum is necessarily the best place to start a thread on the misuse of apostrophes.  What a shame.

It would seem that, in general, the word "hunt" should be used as a verb, not a noun.


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