# Is my boy a Dutch warmblood?



## militarysweetheart (13 February 2012)

Hello! My husband has just bought me a yearling as a first anniversary present. He isn't very horsey and so just saw him and paid for him but I'm keen to know what breed he is.
His mother is a welsh cob x Hanoverian and his sire is a Dutch warmblood. Does this make my boy a Warmblood? I'm eager to find out his heritage.

Thank you


----------



## koeffee (13 February 2012)

He is a part bred, but depends whats on his passport, does have any breeding in their??


----------



## Goldenstar (13 February 2012)

Unless his passport says KWPN on the front he's a horse by a KWPN stallion.


----------



## militarysweetheart (13 February 2012)

Thanks guys!
 We haven't got him home yet as we are waiting for him to be gelded first. I have spoken to the lady at the stud farm but I'm getting nowhere really. I asked her about his passport and she said It's just a weatherby's passport. Which tells me nothing. Then she told me to look in the Horse and hound at a picture of his half sister jumping on a hunt! Which again, doesn't really tell me anything LOL!

All I know is that she is calling him a warmblood because of his sire and because of the Hanoverian in his dam. 

I know that his sire is a 17.2 Dutch Warmblood called white water mountain music.

I'm confused. When people ask me what breed Flash is, I don't know what to tell them definitively.


----------



## mutley75 (13 February 2012)

be careful here, weatherby's  only passport Thoroughbreds. Ithink you might want to do a bit more research before you part with too much money.


----------



## Aidey (13 February 2012)

He probs just has a wetherbys I.D passport, stating basic identity. My boy has one and although I know his sire and dam, in his passport it just says unknown.  It being like this as it was a cheaper alternative than to get him fully papered with a covering cert etc.

ETA: Mutley75 - I always thought this, until I bought my boy and like I have said they do normal I.D passports just like the other passporting companies  
http://www.weatherbys.co.uk/horse-passports/id-passports

Also for your boy to be a dutch warmblood, would't he actually have to have been born in Holland?


----------



## militarysweetheart (13 February 2012)

Thank you Mutley75! Oh my goodness, I'm even more confused now. I'm trying my best research wise and I don't mean to bad mouth anyone but the lady who has him (her son is the owner of the stud farm) doesn't seem to have a lot going on up top. She's in her own little world if you like and talking to her is frustrating. Help!


----------



## militarysweetheart (13 February 2012)

Hi Aidey!
 yes that sounds more like it as she said it was a basic passport. I'm not sure about the 'Dutch' Part. All it says on the internet is that there are so many different breeds of warmblood and a dutch warmblood is a horse from dutch breeds if that makes sense. God knows. All I know is Flash is going to make 16.2+ and is skewbald with a black mane and tail. I think I should just call him a warmblood as Hanoverian's are a warmblood (dams sire) and his dad is a Dutch warmblood, just not sure where the Welsh Cob fits in on his mothers side. (a very bizarre pairing if I must say!) lol.


----------



## Sportznight (13 February 2012)

Sounds to me like he is a British Warmblood/Sportshorse.  Warmbloods and Sporthorses are basically a 'type' not a breed, as such.  He sounds rather lovely too!


----------



## militarysweetheart (13 February 2012)

Ahhhaaa! Thank you sportznight! Sounds a bit more like it. She did say he was a real "sporty sort" haha and thank you, yes we think he's gorgeous


----------



## Aidey (13 February 2012)

Aww well best of luck with him and when he arrives we need LOTS of pics to nosey at 

And how lovely of your husband to do that for your anniversary, I hope he know's what he's let himself in for for anniversaries to come!


----------



## militarysweetheart (13 February 2012)

Thank you! I'm not sure if that link will come out ok but that was taken last year. My nephew calls him the cow - pony! Hehe!

Yes I've been spoiled! Huge brownie points for my husband! And I have to say, he didn't do badly considering he knows pretty much nothing about horses! hehe


----------



## Aidey (13 February 2012)

Aww he's stunning! Saw his advert on coloured contacts.  Looking forward to updates of him in the future  Best of luck x


----------



## xxMozlarxx (13 February 2012)

Hi, I have a warmblood New Forest x, it's not all that unusual to breed with a bigger native, adds a bit of substance to the offspring. Good luck with him


----------



## eventrider23 (13 February 2012)

He would be classified as Warmblood but the sire doesn't have any proven breeding.  I only know this as had a livery that was bought in foal to him and had the same question as he is listed as a Dutch WB but hasn't got any breed papers to prove it.  The foal that the mare had is indeed very smart and going to be a strapping big boy as wearing 5'3-5'6 rugs at 6 months old.  I remember seeing your boy as a foal on the stud's website and thought he was a cutie.  You should be able to get a CHAPS passport for him if he has not been done yet or at least have him overstamped with CHAPS.


----------



## Spr0cket (19 August 2012)

eventrider23 said:



			He would be classified as Warmblood but the sire doesn't have any proven breeding.  I only know this as had a livery that was bought in foal to him and had the same question as he is listed as a Dutch WB but hasn't got any breed papers to prove it.  The foal that the mare had is indeed very smart and going to be a strapping big boy as wearing 5'3-5'6 rugs at 6 months old.  I remember seeing your boy as a foal on the stud's website and thought he was a cutie.  You should be able to get a CHAPS passport for him if he has not been done yet or at least have him overstamped with CHAPS.
		
Click to expand...

So does anyone know if White Water Mountain Music was a Warmblood at all? Who was his sire supposed to be? Is there any knowledge of his breeding?


----------



## eventrider23 (19 August 2012)

I believe that my friend who had the foal by him traced his sire down to the stallion Sunny Boy (Ferro) but I haven't got concrete proof of that myself.  No idea of dam line.


----------



## Spr0cket (19 August 2012)

Thanks for taking the time to respond so quickly, I did see that link on the sports horse web site and how nice it would be if he was related to Ferro and Ramiro Z  but alas that particular Sonny Boy was born two years after White Water Mountain Music, which is what raised my curiosity in the first place.


----------



## s4sugar (19 August 2012)

Not a Dutch Warmblood and not eligible for most registries.

You could get him CHAPS overstamped.


----------



## Whizz105 (19 August 2012)

Welsh x WB is not a bizarre pairing at all! they do very well top level .

Here is my yearling


----------



## kazzer (30 January 2013)

I noticed you said the sire was White Water Mountain Music, I also have a mare who was sired by him, if you look on the internet at white water mountain music you will see pictures of him. My mare is 8 years old and a beautiful girl


----------



## Alexart (30 January 2013)

What a lovely hubby!!!  He'll just be a crossbred not an actual breed, so if anyone asks just say he's a WBx to avoid confusion!!
Have to say have just looked up White water mountain music - I don't think i've seen such bad conformation - why on earth is it being used for breeding?!


----------



## s4sugar (30 January 2013)

Alexart said:



			I don't think i've seen such bad conformation - why on earth is it being used for breeding?!
		
Click to expand...

From the stud website-
"He has exceptional fertility and produces exceptional coloured and also Sabino foals, and has never produced a solid coloured foal."

His photos don't inspire confidence.


----------



## Spring Feather (30 January 2013)

The sire doesn't look like any KWPN I've ever seen.  
http://www.tokenbowstud.com/pictures_whitewatermountainmusic.htm

He has no pedigree either according to sporthorse data.  His sire is unknown, as are ALL others in the line, except the dam who is allegedly a WBx.  

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10491435

In answer to your question OP, even if the sire were a pedigreed warmblood (which he isn't), your youngster would still not be a registered warmblood.  The horse is a crossbreed.  Nothing wrong with crossbreeds but I hope your lovely husband didn't spend much money on this youngster otherwise he's been duped


----------



## Delicious_D (30 January 2013)

That stallion doesnt deserve his nuts  sorry


----------



## dianchi (31 January 2013)

Also would question why at 12 he is no longer in service?


----------



## pudz02 (31 January 2013)

sorry to go off on a tangent but has anyone noticed on the token bow website that if you go onto "token of honour" a lovely piebald, that when you click on his picture a completely different horse with different markings and a freezemark shows up? how strange!


p.s OP your youngster sounds lovely and whatever breed hes classed as im sure you'll have lots of fun


----------



## PapaFrita (31 January 2013)

pudz02 said:



			sorry to go off on a tangent but has anyone noticed on the token bow website that if you go onto "token of honour" a lovely piebald, that when you click on his picture a completely different horse with different markings and a freezemark shows up? how strange!
		
Click to expand...

I think the first photo has been flipped. The markings on the RIGHT side match the markings on the first photo.


----------



## claire008 (1 February 2013)

eventrider23 said:



			I believe that my friend who had the foal by him traced his sire down to the stallion Sunny Boy (Ferro) but I haven't got concrete proof of that myself.  No idea of dam line.
		
Click to expand...

Did you get any further info on white waters parentage?

Its strange as i have a 4yr old that is out of Ynys Prince who is out of WWMM and my horses mum is a hanovarian. what was the breader called are they in wales by any chance?


----------



## nagsinrags (12 February 2013)

Hi

Could you please pm me I own your horses sire !


----------



## nagsinrags (12 February 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			That stallion doesnt deserve his nuts  sorry
		
Click to expand...

What stallion is that then that doesnt deserve his nuts!, I may sound a little harsh here but unless you have met them in the flesh and seen the off spring i would say you cant really slate them !


----------



## s4sugar (12 February 2013)

nagsinrags said:



			What stallion is that then that doesnt deserve his nuts!, I may sound a little harsh here but unless you have met them in the flesh and seen the off spring i would say you cant really slate them !
		
Click to expand...

When the stallion could be used as an example of poor conformation from his published stud card, had no performance record & no known breeding a public forum can "slate" him.


----------



## Toast (12 February 2013)

nagsinrags said:



			What stallion is that then that doesnt deserve his nuts!, I may sound a little harsh here but unless you have met them in the flesh and seen the off spring i would say you cant really slate them !
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, but a stallion with terrible conformation and no competition record should not be contributing to the overpopulation in this industry. Simple as. 
I understand that to you he is the dogs danglies and that can make you see him through rose tinted specs. But i'd like to see that pass a grading..


----------



## nagsinrags (12 February 2013)

I actually dont own WWMM I personally think he is ugly I have a son to WWMM !


----------



## BigBuck's (12 February 2013)

Hi OP.  Your new boy, lovely though he is, is not a Warmblood.  His sire is of unknown breeding and his dam is half-Welsh.  No recognised Warmblood studbook would accept a horse of this breeding as a Warmblood.  Part-bred papers possibly, if the WB part of the parentage was proven, and depending on the studbook, but no more than that.  To continue to refer to him as a Warmblood is inaccurate.

Personally I would be inclined to call him a Welsh part-bred.  Welshies crossed with WBs, TBs, A-As etc make the most wonderful athletic sports horses and if he were mine, I would be proud to fly the flag for the influence of one of our native breeds.


----------



## Toast (12 February 2013)

nagsinrags said:



			I actually dont own WWMM I personally think he is ugly I have a son to WWMM !
		
Click to expand...

Then perhaps read more carefully next time you decide to jump on posters for slating a stallion if you weren't sure who they were on about.


----------



## claire008 (12 February 2013)

Has anyone managed to contact the stud to see if WWMM is suposed to be out of a good stallion? There may be a reason he hasnt got proven parentage like my horse. I know who the parents are but dont have them in his passport yet?

My horse was homebread so for some reason dosnt have anything in his passport.

I may make it my mission to try and find out  

I also think that some of the comments on here are a little rude, Most points true but no need to attack people (TOAST)


----------



## Delicious_D (12 February 2013)

nagsinrags said:



			What stallion is that then that doesnt deserve his nuts!, I may sound a little harsh here but unless you have met them in the flesh and seen the off spring i would say you cant really slate them !
		
Click to expand...

he has terrible conformation and with dubious breeding....a true stallion is one which is a fine example of the breed and good at their job.


----------



## Delicious_D (12 February 2013)

nagsinrags said:



			Hi

Could you please pm me I own your horses sire !
		
Click to expand...




nagsinrags said:



			I actually dont own WWMM I personally think he is ugly I have a son to WWMM !
		
Click to expand...

which one is it :confussed:?

Great marketing 'stallion' owner.


----------



## claire008 (12 February 2013)

Delicious_D said:



			which one is it :confussed:?

Great marketing 'stallion' owner. 

Click to expand...

I think she was talking to me as she owns Ynys prince who is my horses sire.


----------



## s4sugar (12 February 2013)

Why is a stallion of unknown breeding at stud?


----------



## Toast (12 February 2013)

Why is a stallion by another crap stallion being allowed to breed either?!


----------



## Delicious_D (12 February 2013)

Only licensed stallions should be allowed to breed imho. There is too much crap out there!


----------



## Faberge (13 February 2013)

Spring Feather said:



			The sire doesn't look like any KWPN I've ever seen.  
http://www.tokenbowstud.com/pictures_whitewatermountainmusic.htm

He has no pedigree either according to sporthorse data.  His sire is unknown, as are ALL others in the line, except the dam who is allegedly a WBx.  

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10491435

Click to expand...

Wow, he looks absolutely hideous!


----------



## Hedgewitch13 (13 February 2013)

Oh dear that is one fugly stallion  I truly hope your baby is a much nicer type! Good luck x


----------



## Spr0cket (5 May 2013)

dianchi said:



			Also would question why at 12 he is no longer in service?
		
Click to expand...

WWMM died in 2011


----------



## SpottyTB (5 May 2013)

Sorry to hijack the thread but i was wandering the same about my boy.. he's dutch warmblood (sire kpwn) X polish warmblood (dam)

so if he dutch or is he just warmblood?


----------



## s4sugar (5 May 2013)

SpottyTB said:



			Sorry to hijack the thread but i was wandering the same about my boy.. he's dutch warmblood (sire kpwn) X polish warmblood (dam)

so if he dutch or is he just warmblood?
		
Click to expand...

Not Dutch but might be warmblood -it all depends. 
Warmbloods in the main, are not breeds but registries and some allow different breeds in the mix.


----------



## SpottyTB (5 May 2013)

Oh gosh that's complicated... well ummmm here's dad's line - 

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10522279

Mare's line - http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10867635


----------



## s4sugar (5 May 2013)

SpottyTB said:



			Oh gosh that's complicated... well ummmm here's dad's line - 

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10522279

Mare's line - http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10867635



Click to expand...

You could probably get him registered with one of the sporthorse registries. 
Is the sire graded /overstamped with any? 
Which registry does the Dam fit into?


----------



## SpottyTB (5 May 2013)

He's passported with sport horse breeding of great Britain  and under breed he is *sport horse*.. When i bought him they said i could have him passported with a warmblood society or sports horse but there was a substantial difference between costs of passporting.. and i figured because i wasn't keeping him entire then i'd go with the cheaper option. 

His mum is 4* graded apparently, sire isn't graded .. don't know huge amounts tbh.. researched the line a bit and asked around about off spring - that was enough 

http://www.kbfarm.co.uk/stallion.html


----------



## s4sugar (5 May 2013)

SpottyTB said:



			He's passported with sport horse breeding of great Britain  and under breed he is *sport horse*.. When i bought him they said i could have him passported with a warmblood society or sports horse but there was a substantial difference between costs of passporting.. and i figured because i wasn't keeping him entire then i'd go with the cheaper option. 

His mum is 4* graded apparently, sire isn't graded .. don't know huge amounts tbh.. researched the line a bit and asked around about off spring - that was enough 

http://www.kbfarm.co.uk/stallion.html

Click to expand...

With ungraded parents it is very expensive to start registering a gelding.


----------



## SpottyTB (5 May 2013)

The mare is definitely graded but sire isn't. Not interested in registering him as like i said he's not entire so i don't see the need too. I just wandered if i could really tell people "he's warmblood" when they asked!


----------



## s4sugar (5 May 2013)

SpottyTB said:



			The mare is definitely graded but sire isn't. Not interested in registering him as like i said he's not entire so i don't see the need too. I just wandered if i could really tell people "he's warmblood" when they asked! 

Click to expand...

You can call him a warmblood -just don't give him a nationality


----------

