# Advice on returning a dog



## pinky1401 (19 October 2011)

Hi

I need some advice, we have had a dog for three weeks. He isn't what we were told he was. I can't walk him happily as he shows aggression to other dogs, chases cows etc. He is a part trained gundog and we wanted a part trained dog as we have a small child who has to be in a buggy when I walk the dog so it needed to be well behaved on the lead and off - it isn't. Therefore he isn't suited to us and we are returning him. We paid serious money for him and have been told that we won't get any back as now the dog isn't the same as when they sold him to us. While he has been with us he actually attacked another dog.

I'm really sad about this and frustrated we aren't rich and have spent nearly £1,000 on this dog so far. Do I have any leg to stand on or are they right?

S x


----------



## galaxy (19 October 2011)

You have bought an adult dog that has been professionally trained?  Were you told and was it advertised as good on the lead and with other dogs?  Have you changed any of it's routine/feed/amount of time exercised that could be causing this behviour?


----------



## lexiedhb (19 October 2011)

I think after three weeks you are expecting an awful lot of a dog trained or not. It will need time to settle, learn what YOU want from it, and learn to respect you- NO dog IMO will come to you and behave impeccably immediately.


----------



## echodomino (19 October 2011)

3wks isn't giving the dog much of a chance, it won't have even settled in yet. It's probably wondering why it's whole life has suddenly changed which may have a contributing factor in it's behaviour.


----------



## pinky1401 (19 October 2011)

we changed its food onto an equivalent gradually. It was advertised as being the perfect dog. Brought up on a farm, good in every aspect and it is apart from when walking past other dogs or cows/horses. We have had dogs in the past so we made sure he knew his position in the pack etc etc. He is perfect in the home.


----------



## blackcob (19 October 2011)

Was this a private sale? Advertised online, in a newspaper etc.?

You, like me, and many others, have found that people often lie in order to get rid of a problem dog. In addition, the dog's behaviour may reflect that fact that he is very unsettled - it's a lot to ask of a dog to behave perfectly after only three weeks in a new home with new handlers. He has absolutely no idea of what you require of him, only that everything around him has suddenly changed and that you are probably shouting and losing your patience with him a lot, leaving him even more unsettled. 

The fact that you have to walk him with a child in a buggy concerns me, I don't see how that could ever result in enough exercise for a working gundog, and taking in a completely unknown dog with such a small child in the house was very foolish. 

A reputable rescue would have been able to provide you with a dog temperament tested with other dogs, children, cats, assessed in various situations and quite often with a full life history, matched exactly to your family's requirements, and would provide you with a guarantee to take the dog back in any circumstance even years from now. I've never known an adoption fee to be over £200 and it's usually significantly less. 

No idea about legal recourse now, sorry, just throught I'd point the other bits out.


----------



## pinky1401 (19 October 2011)

I know three weeks isn't a long time but surely that isn't a good enough reason to actually attack another dog?


----------



## Sue C (19 October 2011)

Hi
Is it breeder or trainer? Did you get any paperwork with the dog stateing how it behaved?

As it could be a case of your word against theirs and then you have not got a leg to stand on, unless there advert states it.

If it attacked another dog, I would not trust it with children.

I rescued both my dogs for one for 150.00 and I could not wish for better dogs with children, other dogs, horses etc.  

Good luck


----------



## pinky1401 (19 October 2011)

Hi
He was trained as a gun dog but they wanted a family home for him as he didn't really want to do the job. I have a three wheeler off road buggy and we go for two hour walks - he gets lots of exercise.


----------



## galaxy (19 October 2011)

pinky1401 said:



			we changed its food onto an equivalent gradually. It was advertised as being the perfect dog. Brought up on a farm, good in every aspect and it is apart from when walking past other dogs or cows/horses. We have had dogs in the past so we made sure he knew his position in the pack etc etc. He is perfect in the home.
		
Click to expand...

Change him back onto the feed he was on?  What feed have you put him on?  If it's not a high quality one then they can cause behavioural problems.

If the dog was brought up on a farm are you giving the dog enough equivalent exercise?


----------



## echodomino (19 October 2011)

pinky1401 said:



			I know three weeks isn't a long time but surely that isn't a good enough reason to actually attack another dog?
		
Click to expand...

Without knowing what the situation was that's a hard one to comment on, but should imagine if he's feeling insecure it may be. And it doesn't make him a bad dog, I have one who doesn't get on with most other dogs and she's a fabulous dog.

ETA: What is he?


----------



## BBH (19 October 2011)

This poor dog is not a chattel, he has been with you three weeks give him more time to settle and some training if required. You can't even really know him in this time.

I don't think my rescue girl was as described, I was told she was 4 and I think she is nearer 2. I didn't think she was lead trained but I discovered she has been trained to walk on the left. She had  accidents in the home having being told she was house trained. I paid £200 adoption fee.

Would I send her back absolutely not.

As soon as she came through my door she was my responsibility to turn into the I dog I want.

 FWIW I don't think you'll get your money back and based on your post I  think you should be prepared to spend the time to help a dog integrate properly.


----------



## blackcob (19 October 2011)

The fact that you're talking about pack theory also concerns me, it's complete bull. 

I adopted a dog from rescue back in June, he was fully assessed and I was told he was great with other dogs, a fact I was able to see for myself when I went to visit him and try him with lots of other dogs including my own. Within a couple of days of being home he was lunging and howling at passing dogs, behaviour that would look very aggressive to a bystander. In fact he was just very unsettled and not sure how to react to strange dogs on new turf, especially ones that approached him boldly and got right in his face. Six weeks of careful socialisation and focus work later he was 100% improved. He just needed time to settle, regain his confidence and find some confidence in me. 

Sue C - dogs know the difference between dogs and children, the fact that it's bitten a dog does not mean it will be dangerous towards humans. 

That said, it worries me that coming from a working farm situation into a family with kids means that the dog might not be having adequate exercise and stimulation. It's in this kind of situation that dogs do bite - a bored, understimulated, hyperactive dog, an unpredictable child allowed to get in the dog's space, climb all over it, grab its toys...


----------



## Dobiegirl (19 October 2011)

Sue C said:



			Hi
Is it breeder or trainer? Did you get any paperwork with the dog stateing how it behaved?

As it could be a case of your word against theirs and then you have not got a leg to stand on, unless there advert states it.

If it attacked another dog, I would not trust it with children.

I rescued both my dogs for one for 150.00 and I could not wish for better dogs with children, other dogs, horses etc.  

Good luck
		
Click to expand...

Dog aggression does not equate people aggression that is a common fallacy and has no basis in fact.

OP was this dog advertised and if so can you tell us what the advert said. Also the incident with the other dog was it off lead/on lead, what are you feeding it,what sex,what breed and is it neutered/spayed etc.

I agree with the others in that 3wks is no time at all for a dog to settle into a new home.


----------



## pinky1401 (19 October 2011)

it was advertised by a breeder said he was great with kids, dogs, animals etc looking for a family home. He is a lab. 

I can assure you he gets plenty of exercise an hour in the morning, two in the afternoon and throwing the ball for him in between.


----------



## pinky1401 (19 October 2011)

he attacked a yellow lab bitch.


----------



## pinky1401 (19 October 2011)

forgot he is castrated. 

The reason we bought him was he was already part trained so in theory we could hit the ground running. I think you are right we arne't the right family for him hence why he is going back!


----------



## Hedwards (19 October 2011)

Have you consulted a trainer since you've had the dog? - maybe this would be a sensible option before sending him back - get a professionals opinion on the issues you're having/how to deal with them. When i took Suzy on (a rescue) it took a good 3-4 months before I really got to know her - and initially she would lunge/growl etc at other dogs. 3 weeks really isnt very long to build up trust between you and the dog.


----------



## echodomino (19 October 2011)

pinky1401 said:



			forgot he is castrated. 

The reason we bought him was he was already part trained so in theory we could hit the ground running. I think you are right we arne't the right family for him hence why he is going back!
		
Click to expand...

Why can't you give him a bit more time and some training instead of giving up on him? He's trained for gundog work not for living in a family environment, if that's not what he's used to it's going to take time to settle into your routine. Did you go and meet him before deciding to have him? That would have given you an idea as what he's like. You say he's perfect in the home why not give him a chance to make him just as good out of it?


----------



## pinky1401 (19 October 2011)

We've been to a trainer she has seen us three times and told me that he needs a lot of time and money investing in him. Wrongly or rightly I dont' have time and money to train a dog. I have time to keep on top of an already part trained dog but I don't have. She says she thinks that it may be the fact he has been so dominated in the past that makes him the way he is now with us. We are the boss of him but we don't dominate him 24/7.


----------



## lochpearl (19 October 2011)

can I ask why you want a dog?


----------



## pinky1401 (19 October 2011)

I love dogs and thought a dog would be a great addition to our family. As well as being a friend and a pet it would teach my daughter to care and be gentle and loving to a living breathing creature. She could bond with it and have a great friend as well as us all benefiting from having a great family pet. 

The trouble I have is that I have to walk the dog twice a day on my own with my daughter in her buggy. She is 20 months old and sits at about the height of the dogs face. If anything more happened when we were out walking and she got caught in the middle of it I could never live with myself. Yes we did visit the dog before we brought him home. I was told he would be perfect off and on the lead but he seems to have developed a tiny unpredictable streak which shows up when we are out and about walking. 

Now maybe I am an idiot and naieve and foolish (whatever else you want to call me) but I bought this dog in good faith and with the breeder being totally aware of what we wanted. Yes maybe three weeks isn't long enough but I can't risk my daughter in the hope that maybe with training and time he might (or might not) stop doing it.

So there we go I might be a prat but I didn't mean any harm and genuinely thought that we would all have a great future together.

Lochpearl - I don't think questions like that are helpful to anyone.


----------



## blackcob (19 October 2011)

I think it was quite an astute question, actually - if you don't have the time and money to train a dog, by your own admission, then a dog is not for you. The qualities you are looking for in a pet for your daughter would be more equally met by a pair of rabbits, guinea pigs or fancy rats at the moment. The dog can wait until she is old enough to take part in long walks and have some input into the dog's care and training.


----------



## echodomino (19 October 2011)

How about walking him in a muzzle until you've got on top of him? 

I'm not digging but my mum used to walk 5 gundogs and take me in my pushchair when I was a baby and then my brother in the pushchair and me toddling along, it can be done  We've taken in dogs that haven't had anything more than a life in a kennel, no training not even toilet training, and they've been the best family dogs. Have you got anyone who can help you, i.e so you can take him out on your own? 

I think it's the case most the time that you won't get all of your money back. On the couple of occasions I've had puppies back that I've bred I've only given back part or not at all, depending how old the puppy/dog is and have rehomed them without asking for anything


----------



## lexiedhb (19 October 2011)

If he does go back please do not just go get another one, if you are not prepared to give a dog more than three weeks to settle, or spend any time/money effort on training then I would question wether having a dog was right for you.


----------



## Amymay (19 October 2011)

lochpearl said:



			can I ask why you want a dog?
		
Click to expand...

Bang on.

And in particular _this_ dog.  A smaller one would have been much more appropriate, by the sounds of it. (Although, maybe not given your restrictions..........).

What were the circumstances in which he 'attacked' another dog?

If you are a family presumably that means two adults in the house?  Has anyone ever taken this dog off for a good old ramble without the child and the buggy?  A good old fashioned proper walk?

Sounds as if the dog has come in to your home with very little thought for it's introduction, training or lifestyle.

I would try and re-home it.  PM Cayla on here - she may well be able to help you.


----------



## Hedwards (19 October 2011)

pinky1401 said:



			We've been to a trainer she has seen us three times and told me that he needs a lot of time and money investing in him. Wrongly or rightly I dont' have time and money to train a dog. I have time to keep on top of an already part trained dog but I don't have. She says she thinks that it may be the fact he has been so dominated in the past that makes him the way he is now with us. We are the boss of him but we don't dominate him 24/7.
		
Click to expand...

I think this sums it up to be honest, and I have to agree with BC, it sounds like a dog is not the right pet for you/your family at the moment. Regardless of how well trained the dog is when it gets to you, you will always need to continue training, especially in the early days, which takes up time, and based on your own admission you dont have time for this.

I completely appreciate your concerns over your daughter, and if you are so worried, I would be taking the dog back and forgetting the money, as any amount of money cannot be any factor if you are that worried about your daughter and the fact she may be at risk (regardless of my thoughts on dog agression vs people agression).


----------



## lochpearl (19 October 2011)

helpful? I wanted to know as to whether you wanted it gun trained because say your OH was into shooting or if you just wanted it 'trained' as in house trained. 

I agree that you want to put your daughter first but as others have said, the dog must feel very out of sorts, new place, new owner and it's only been a short while. That said I can see that you must be disheartened by the attacking of the bitch. 

I have a lot of friends that shoot and have gun dogs and although very obedient 'shooting' they are totally different in the home and on normal walks, I know a spaniel and a lab that are the best dogs on our patch, yet at home, they are unruly and run across the road and ignore the handler (often the partner at shooting). These are fabulously trained for the field but in a 'home' life aren't great. They are also very possessive and can be snappy with others on the farm.

I however am not into shooting and have a working lab (bred) but she has never been trained to work and has only been a pet. She was simple to train and she is a gem with everything and everyone. If she picks up a bird she will hold it very gently but out on the field she'd probably run away!!! 

So all I'm trying to say is perhaps having say a trained working dog vs a home reared and trained dog might be where this has failed you, as it sounds really like you want a soft companion for you and your family to enjoy and exercise rather than something that has been trained to do something that you don't want to do with it?


----------



## pinky1401 (19 October 2011)

I've never met so many judgemental people. I wish I hadn't posted anything. I'm not an idiot and have found some responses on here really upsetting.

I only wanted some kindly advice not everyones judgement. Believe me you can have a good old fashioned stroll with a child.


----------



## pinky1401 (19 October 2011)

lochpearl said:



			helpful? I wanted to know as to whether you wanted it gun trained because say your OH was into shooting or if you just wanted it 'trained' as in house trained. 

I agree that you want to put your daughter first but as others have said, the dog must feel very out of sorts, new place, new owner and it's only been a short while. That said I can see that you must be disheartened by the attacking of the bitch. 

I have a lot of friends that shoot and have gun dogs and although very obedient 'shooting' they are totally different in the home and on normal walks, I know a spaniel and a lab that are the best dogs on our patch, yet at home, they are unruly and run across the road and ignore the handler (often the partner at shooting). These are fabulously trained for the field but in a 'home' life aren't great. They are also very possessive and can be snappy with others on the farm.

I however am not into shooting and have a working lab (bred) but she has never been trained to work and has only been a pet. She was simple to train and she is a gem with everything and everyone. If she picks up a bird she will hold it very gently but out on the field she'd probably run away!!! 

So all I'm trying to say is perhaps having say a trained working dog vs a home reared and trained dog might be where this has failed you, as it sounds really like you want a soft companion for you and your family to enjoy and exercise rather than something that has been trained to do something that you don't want to do with it?
		
Click to expand...

Why didn't you write that in the first place. THank you no we didn't want a gun dog we have no interest in shooting but they told us he wanted to be a family pet not a gun dog.


----------



## The Original Kao (19 October 2011)

I'm a bit confused about 3 weeks not being enough time to settle. 
I have dogs come to stay with me regularly, for a few days up to a fortnight. A lot of them I've never even met before (it's all done through someone else who assesses the dog, speaks to the owner, delivers dog, gives us a schedule of feed times, walks etc. Which I know keeping them to what they are used to at home helps, keep reading you will see what I'm getting at here, hopefully ) I've only had 1 dog not settle from day 1 and he was used to a quiet home with no people walking past the window which we have here living on a well walked village street. I've had 14 different dogs stay with me so far. 
If they're good off lead after a few days of them getting used to us and us getting used to them and practising recall in the garden, we can let them off lead and they will respond to us. 
If they are good on lead they are good on lead from day 1.
If they are good with other dogs they are good with other dogs from day 1.....
Good with kids...... am sure you see where am going


----------



## echodomino (19 October 2011)

No one's called you an idiot. 

I don't think anyone means to come over as rude or judgemental but as a group of dog owners who are very passionate about our dogs and a lot of us having a lot to do with rescues, it develops  some very strong views.


----------



## lochpearl (19 October 2011)

pinky1401 said:



			Why didn't you write that in the first place. THank you no we didn't want a gun dog we have no interest in shooting but they told us he wanted to be a family pet not a gun dog.
		
Click to expand...

I kind of did..................  I wanted to know why you wanted a dog - was it to shoot with or home? Internet is a funny thing and people always take things the wrong way when not intended.

I don't think that people are being judgemental I think that people are upset that they feel 3 weeks isn't long enough for any of you to get to know each other. Not only that, I really am sorry to say this, but the way you have worded your posts, it sounds like you don't give a fig about this poor soul, and that he is disposable. There are many people on this post who deal in rescue and rehoming dogs and to now hear first hand that a dog isn't right so it needs to go back and it's all about money is upsetting for them.

I am sure that you didn't mean to come across like this but I'm afraid it did.

Likening it to horses, you wouldn't purchase a cob trained by a racehorse trainer would you, so buying a trained gun dog that are bred for working and having it as a pet is likely to throw up problems.


----------



## Spudlet (19 October 2011)

You have to think about what the dog is used to... it's gone from being a gundog, so possibly kept outside, and doing work, which provides lots of mental stimulation, not necessarily used to being fussed over etc, to being in a house with people all the time, being given long but not necessarily stimulating walks, strange noises, smells etc. It's a big change for any dog to handle. Most likely a more experienced pet owners home that still could provide a job for the dog to do would be better - whether that job is agility, obedience training, or whatever.

For your situation, a slightly older rescue dog that has come from a home environment would probably be better. However you are going to need to train any new dog to your way of living, and if you can't commit to that then you need to rethink your choice of pet. And please ditch the dominance / pack theory thing, it's a load of rubbish!

I hope this poor dog finds a good home, it's not the dog's fault.


----------



## lexiedhb (19 October 2011)

The_original_Kao said:



			I'm a bit confused about 3 weeks not being enough time to settle. 
I have dogs come to stay with me regularly, for a few days up to a fortnight. A lot of them I've never even met before (it's all done through someone else who assesses the dog, speaks to the owner, delivers dog, gives us a schedule of feed times, walks etc. Which I know keeping them to what they are used to at home helps, keep reading you will see what I'm getting at here, hopefully ) I've only had 1 dog not settle from day 1 and he was used to a quiet home with no people walking past the window which we have here living on a well walked village street. I've had 14 different dogs stay with me so far. 
If they're good off lead after a few days of them getting used to us and us getting used to them and practising recall in the garden, we can let them off lead and they will respond to us. 
If they are good on lead they are good on lead from day 1.
If they are good with other dogs they are good with other dogs from day 1.....
Good with kids...... am sure you see where am going 

Click to expand...

Depends what type of dog they are and where they have come from I would imagine.


----------



## pinky1401 (19 October 2011)

For the past six months the dog had been living in the breeders home with their family. It hasn't gone from being an active gun dog to moving in with us. It is a lovely dog but I have to put my child first. 

In future I'll stick to guinea pigs...!


----------



## The Original Kao (19 October 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			Depends what type of dog they are and where they have come from I would imagine.
		
Click to expand...

yeah after reading spudlets post never thought about the fact the 1's I get are from homes rather than a kennel environment. So I'm less confused now for a change lol


----------



## lexiedhb (19 October 2011)

The_original_Kao said:



			yeah after reading spudlets post never thought about the fact the 1's I get are from homes rather than a kennel environment. So I'm less confused now for a change lol 

Click to expand...

Yeah mine had been in kennels for 6ish months prior to me getting him- 7 months on he is only really just settling now.


----------



## Dobiegirl (19 October 2011)

I also was confused, I thought as it was partly trained as a gun dog this is what its main job was meant to be. In that case £1k is too much money to spend on a dog that has to be rehomed you could have got one for a lot less than that from Lab rescue and other rescue sites. I paid £200 for my 18month Dobes which were house trained and little else. So before you bought this dog did you do any research about the breed and whether it would fit in with your lifestyle and had you discussed with the previous owner about returning the dog if it didnt work out.?

Every dog is going to need some sort of training which has to be kept up as no dog is perfect.


----------



## lexiedhb (19 October 2011)

pinky1401 said:



			For the past six months the dog had been living in the breeders home with their family. It hasn't gone from being an active gun dog to moving in with us. It is a lovely dog but I have to put my child first. 

In future I'll stick to guinea pigs...!
		
Click to expand...

I dont understand this- the dog has been nothing but nice to the child right?


----------



## pinky1401 (19 October 2011)

He hasn't been living in kennels he has been in a home. I'm genuinely interested in the pack theory thing though. I did ring the breeder to ask talk to her about the aggression before we decided to take him back. They told me that he probably thinks i'm his bitch and that is why he is showing this aggresion. Do you think this could be the case? I'm not a push over and he sits and lays down etc when he is told to.


----------



## pinky1401 (19 October 2011)

lexie read previous posts about walking with him. Am worried that she will be in the way next time he wants to be aggressive to another dog.


----------



## blackcob (19 October 2011)

The_original_Kao said:



			yeah after reading spudlets post never thought about the fact the 1's I get are from homes rather than a kennel environment. So I'm less confused now for a change lol 

Click to expand...

Mine came from a home environment but was fostered with a pack of 13 other dogs and it was a busy town situation; poor lad got very confused when he ended up in a house in the middle of the countryside with just one uppity bitch.  He still sometimes gets freaked out by the wind, creaking trees, gunshots etc. and always seems on super high alert in wide open spaces, whereas he just mooches along when we go into the village.


----------



## Amymay (19 October 2011)

They told me that he probably thinks i'm his bitch and that is why he is showing this aggresion
		
Click to expand...

B*LL*CKS!


----------



## blackcob (19 October 2011)

Utter boll*cks about the pack theory thing. I think this is about the fifth time this week I've said this but The Culture Clash is vital reading.


----------



## pinky1401 (19 October 2011)

amynag - I genuinely would like to know why he is doing it then. Do you think it is that he is just not settled in. He seems very settled at home. He really does, he isn't pining he isn't restless he really does seem very settled.


----------



## pinky1401 (19 October 2011)

blackcob - I would really appreciate a brief summary about it. I really would like to know more about this as I have just been told that that is how it is. i.e. he thinks he is in charge and he is being a protector


----------



## echodomino (19 October 2011)

Is it just the one dog or every dog he sees agitating him? Could be he's fine with the other dogs where you had him from but he's not been properly socialised with dogs in general. He could have had a bad experience that they've not told you about - one of mine was attacked by a black lab once, he's fine with dogs but freaks out if he is near a black lab now


----------



## CAYLA (19 October 2011)

Not read all replies (in a hurry) soz
I don't understand why a partly trrained gun dog= £1000 worth of perfectly trained family pet
I think you have been jipped and lied too, but I also think for £1000, these things should have been looked into, i.e proof (that he was all they sold him as). (I assume you did not just collect him and hand your cash over)?
I also think the 3 week issue has little to do with the problems he is displaying in regard to settling (sure if he was being destructive indoors or generally bouncy and unruly), I expect he already had these issues with dogs? do you out of interest know if it is just a lead issue? was he ok with the other dogs when mixed at the farm/gun dog place? obs these are totally different scenarios (dog mixing freely) is nothing alike dogs on a lead. Di you see him on a lead with the seller or was he walked by other dogs?
For £1000 im affraid I probably would want a perfect dog if I am taking on an adult (supposed trained dog) (something akind to a guide dog) I myself could give you a perfectly trained family pet for £1000 (Im in the wrong business)

How is this dog in the house? How old is he? what breed is he?
For what it is worth, no I don't think he he just aquired these issues whilst with you (but it is a good argument for the sellers not to give you your money back) but nor do I think (only from what I read) you used common sense when purchasing this dog (more money then sense) I do not mean that in a bad way AT ALL, just a good description for this situation.

I will probably make you feel rather peeved now by saying I have a beautiful 14 month old rescue lab boy and he is PERFECT in every way, his temperament is out of this world, he does not pull on his lead, he loves other dogs and has not got a bad bone in his body and he is perfect in the house (does not even need a crate), he also has outstanding recall with and without balls/toys/frizby he just loves people and thats enough for him to be the happiest boy and stick to you like glue infact im becoming picky as to where i place this boy, because I dont want him ruined. I will also be making sure whoever I do decide he goes to comes on walks with me and sees him in my home, outside, in the car, with dogs on a lead e.t.c and he will have full BACK UP and any training advice/support the new owner will need (not that they will)
He is neutered, chipped, vaccinated and will be insured for £150 donation.

Where abouts are you, if you don't mind me asking, and if the sellers refuses to take him back, what will you be doing with him? is further training an option here?

PS....I am also going to hazard a guess he was rarely walked off the farm at all!!! and had little chance to socialise whilst controlled (on a lead)


----------



## CAYLA (19 October 2011)

amymay said:



			B*LL*CKS!
		
Click to expand...

This quote should have included the OP saying she was the dogs bitch

Lol............classic
Who told you this......not the person who sold you the dog


----------



## pinky1401 (19 October 2011)

It seems to be every dog - from jack russell to staffy to labrador! He was exercised in a pack off the lead. They said he wasn't a bully but equally he wouldn't be bullied. 

I thought it was odd that he would attack a bitch too - I thought if anything it would of been a dog but maybe that is being naieve. He seems worse when we walk around where we live. If I take him in the car off somewhere he doesn't know he is ok.

Excuse my bad spelling.


----------



## Amymay (19 October 2011)

pinky1401 said:



			amymay - I genuinely would like to know why he is doing it then. Do you think it is that he is just not settled in. He seems very settled at home. He really does, he isn't pining he isn't restless he really does seem very settled.
		
Click to expand...

Doing what - chasing cows and horses and attacking other dogs?

Well, lots of dogs given half a chance will chase a cows or horses, because it's fun - that's where the training comes in (or the leash). 

And the aggression, I can't answer because I'm not clear on the events that caused it.

Bottom line is dogs need training and re-inforcement.  You say you don't have the time, money or inclination.  So I would return to the breeder, or re-home elsewhere responsibly.


----------



## The Original Kao (19 October 2011)

Sorry completely off topic but.....CAYLA can you find me a female lab like the boy you described pretty please


----------



## Dobiegirl (19 October 2011)

Your dog isnt after domination he wants and needs leadership from you, op I know you are not an experienced dog owner and you are now worried about your daughter and you are probabley sending out worried vibes that the dog is picking up. Labs are usually the softest and easiest breed to train, they are people orientated and want to please. You have done the right thing in getting a trainer in but unfortunately they have realised you are not up to the job. No disrespect to you but I think whilst your daughter is small getting a guinea pig is the best option. When she is older perhaps you can adopt from a rescue shelter an older dog used to children and enjoy dog ownership which you are not doing now.


----------



## CorvusCorax (19 October 2011)

OP, this has been a very polite, informative and helpful thread with some excellent comments, please do take the advice.
Even dogs sold for thousands, police and personal protection, drugs detections dogs, 'fully trained' need tweaking and retraining here and there, there is no such thing as a ready-trained dog and three weeks is no time at all.

Dogs need training and reminders throughout their lives, even those competing at the top of their game, never mind family pets, and if as you say you cannot dedicate any kind of time or work on this dog then please rehome him responsibly from home to home through a breed rescue or someone like Cayla x


----------



## pinky1401 (19 October 2011)

Dobiegirl! thanks for that! She hasn't realised that I'm not up to the job. I have had dogs before. I am more than willing to spend some time as I said keeping on top of the training, reinforcing what an already part trained dog should be able to do. I also wanted to do some agility or obedience once a week with my trainer - hence why I have been seeing her. 
I can't believe some people are so rude!


----------



## echodomino (19 October 2011)

pinky1401 said:



			I am more than willing to spend some time as I said keeping on top of the training, reinforcing what an already part trained dog should be able to do. I also wanted to do some agility or obedience once a week with my trainer - hence why I have been seeing her.
		
Click to expand...

Take him to obedience and see how he gets on before definitely taking him back, if you see your trainer once a week and do some homework and your trainer is a good one, you'll probably make him more managable

ETA there was a GSD where I used to train for agility and when she started she had to be muzzled and kept at the back, she can mingle with the rest of the class, on her lead but without her muzzle and has competed now


----------



## CorvusCorax (19 October 2011)

Who has been rude?!
Sorry, I misread, glad you are willing to put in the time and effort into training, I thought in a previous post you said you were not x


----------



## pinky1401 (19 October 2011)

I am but I just feel a bit aggrevieved that I need to do intensive training rather than 'top up' keep on top of things training and then just doing agility, obedience for fun.


----------



## Hedwards (19 October 2011)

pinky1401 said:



			I am but I just feel a bit aggrevieved that I need to do intensive training rather than 'top up' keep on top of things training and then just doing agility, obedience for fun.
		
Click to expand...

My rescue lurcher came to me with a lot of recall issues as well as being very 'interested' in other dogs (and i did have some concerns about agression, although i now know this isnt the case) - i havent done intensive training, but went straight into agility and flyball training - we've built up a really good relationship doing this and having fun, maybe it would be worth a try...?


----------



## Dobiegirl (19 October 2011)

pinky1401 said:



			Dobiegirl! thanks for that! She hasn't realised that I'm not up to the job. I have had dogs before. I am more than willing to spend some time as I said keeping on top of the training, reinforcing what an already part trained dog should be able to do. I also wanted to do some agility or obedience once a week with my trainer - hence why I have been seeing her. 
I can't believe some people are so rude!
		
Click to expand...

You have said before that you didnt have the time to train this dog, my post was with the very best of intentions as I felt you were out of your depth with this dog. If you wish to continue with this dog go to a training class it will be an hour out of your week and will also help socialise him with other dogs. Everyone on this forum including me will be only too happy to give advice which you have already received but its up to you whether you take it or not.

I would still like to know why you paid £1k for this dog when you were not interested in shooting.


----------



## lochpearl (19 October 2011)

but surely you want to bond with this dog? training is part of the process and it's not really the topping up, it's gaining a partnership for you both. As you said, the dog has been living in a family for the last 6 months, now he has come to you and his world has totally changed. If the bond with you and him gets stronger and you learn how to work with him, I'm sure he will be fine.


----------



## CorvusCorax (19 October 2011)

That's dogs for you but I am sorry you had to spend £1k to find that out in this instance 
TBH I have sunk most of my time and money into my older dog who needed a lot of work but it has opened up a whole new past time, passion and set of friends to me!

Bear in mind if you are out with a buggy that equipment will be a big factor in how pleasant your walk will be - good headcollar or control collar, good lead with a hands free option if you need it, bodywarmer with treats and balls if you need to distract or play with the dog, etc x


----------



## blackcob (19 October 2011)

pinky1401 said:



			blackcob - I would really appreciate a brief summary about it. I really would like to know more about this as I have just been told that that is how it is. i.e. he thinks he is in charge and he is being a protector
		
Click to expand...

I really would recommend getting a copy if at all possible, it makes for very enlightening reading, but I'll try and summarise a few points re: the dominance thing.

Dominance theory came out of studies on captive wolf packs. Domestic dogs are not wolves, neither are captive wolves like wild wolves. 

Dogs are disobedient because they have no idea what is being asked of them, are undermotivated to comply, or something else has 'won' at the time, like a fleeing squirrel (dogs are products of their genes - they are predators, they 'live in the moment' (one thing Cesar Milan got right), they are highly social, they are oppotunistic scavengers, 'it's all chew toys to them' and are wholly self interested). They are not capable of staying up at night planning how to take over the family or understanding of concepts like revenge. 

Training involves a steady history of reinforcement, a supplied motivation, generalisation to the context in which the command is given and proofing the behaviour against competing motivation in order to = 100% obedience. 

Dogs are born unaware that they are in a culture in which biting is not acceptable. Fight + flight is a natural response to increase the distance between the dog and whatever has spooked them. Which reaction a dog displays is partly in their genetic makeup and partly historical - if they've scared off a dog that scared them in the past by lunging and snarling, they will lunge and snarl at anything else that approaches them in a manner in which they are not comfortable with. 

This is all tied in with the person on the end of the lead - you know your dog will react badly to other dogs so you punish the behaviour - voices are raised, the lead is held tight, the dog throttled back, everybody is tense, the dog is forced to sit and be throttled and watch as something he totally doesn't know how to interact with passes him by and he's fearful, he's anxious, so is the owner and it's all transmitted down the leash and in the body language. The entire situation is stressful - the dog generalises to understand that other dogs - stress. Maybe the other dog is the same, hasn't been adequately socialised - there's a face-off.


----------



## pinky1401 (19 October 2011)

I am willing to go to a class once a week with him. That was the plan from the start to do agility or obedience. What I can't do when I am walking him with my daughter in her buggy is things like turning round in the opposite direction when we see another dog and he starts growling. That is what I mean when I say I'm not able to put the time in. Sorry I should be more specific.


----------



## lexiedhb (19 October 2011)

pinky1401 said:



			lexie read previous posts about walking with him. Am worried that she will be in the way next time he wants to be aggressive to another dog.
		
Click to expand...

Ok but walking any dog of size, like a lab could mean you getting dragged over if they see a squirrel etc, jump up on buggy, dogs are animals not robots, so will react to differing situations.


----------



## pinky1401 (19 October 2011)

Cave Canem you should see my jacket when we go out! I have tennis balls, squeakers, treats and poop bags spilling out of it!


----------



## pinky1401 (19 October 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			Ok but walking any dog of size, like a lab could mean you getting dragged over if they see a squirrel etc, jump up on buggy, dogs are animals not robots, so will react to differing situations.
		
Click to expand...

I can deal with being dragged off etc I'm heavily anchored having a bitten face is a different matter.


----------



## MurphysMinder (19 October 2011)

Everyone no matter how experienced should be prepared to have to spend time keeping on top of training, not just once a week but constantly.  I have just come back from a training class with my daughters pup, he was a horror as I expected, shrieked his excitement at everyone and forgot everything he has been taught, I expected that, and know with time he will improve.  Similarly your dog even if he is partly trained, has had a lot to take in over the 3 weeks you have had him.  I do not subscribe to the dominance theory, but it is a possibility he feels he has to protect you and your daughter.  My very laid back GSD became quite sharp with people when I first had my daughter, I had to be very careful that people didn't sweep in and try and pick the baby up etc when the dog was round, I know it is early days but there is a chance your dog feel this new little person in their life needs protecting.
If you are prepared to put more time in persevering with this dog it would probably be worthwhile, but if you really do not feel he is the dog for you I think you should return him and unfortunately I think it is unlikely you will get all your money back.


----------



## lochpearl (19 October 2011)

pinky - you should really be chastised for this!!! WHERE are the PICTURES!!!!!


----------



## CorvusCorax (19 October 2011)

Good good!

I second the recommendation of The Culture Clash, of which BC has given an excellent summary. I do disagree with the author on the issue of choke chains, used properly I have no issue with them, but the book is an excellent look into the brain of a dog and it gave me a lot of lightbulb moments, even though I thought I knew a lot, I actually didn't.


----------



## blackcob (19 October 2011)

I only read it for the first time quite recently and am still feeling pretty evangelical about it, sorry.  In Defence of Dogs is next on the list once I've got a spare evening.


----------



## lizness (19 October 2011)

I think that some of you have been rather unfair. From what I have read of it OP has got a trained, i.e housetrained, taught to walk on lead etc. An adult dog as she doesn't have time with a small child, maybe not to watch constantly. She has got a failed gundog that has also been a family pet and for the money has expected the dog as advertised. OP has stated that the dog will get up to 3 hours exercise a day also a training class and has chosen a lab, a very common family pet. Is there really anything wrong with this??

Maybe you need to give it a bit longer to settle but for that sumwhat crazy money I would expect a very genuine dog!


----------



## Broodle (19 October 2011)

OP - I suspect Cayla has hit the mark with her comment that your dog has probably not often left his breeder's farm, and is therefore not well socialised with dogs outside of his old 'pack'.  This would, I think, explain why he is lunging at other dogs out walking, especially if he is on the lead and therefore has no escape route from the (to him) scary other dogs.

Anyway, I guess only you can decide whether you have the time and energy to work through your dog's problems.  If you don't then he'll have to go back, but I imagine the only way to get your money back will be via small claims court, and then only if you have really good documentary evidence of the breeder's claims and some sort of expert testimony (vet, behaviourist etc) that the dog is not as described and his problems are not of your making   I think you may have to write the money off sadly, as a legal claim would seem to be sending good money after bad 

For all those focussing on the price paid by the OP - really, is that any of your business?  Also, this 'still unsettled after 3 weeks' is just silly imo - my dogs and those of my friends regularly stay with dog minders or at friends houses for holiday cover, and they don't suddenly lose their manners/recall/socialisation skills just because they've gone somewhere new...

Also, there is nothing wrong with the OP wanting to spend good money to buy a really nice natured well trained dog.  Just because most people either make their own from scratch (i.e. buy a puppy) or rehabilitate/retrain a rescue, doesn't mean it's wrong to want a dog without having to do the difficult early work.  Certainly doesn't mean that the OP shouldn't be allowed to have a dog at all!


----------



## CorvusCorax (19 October 2011)

OP volunteered the info about the money therefore I feel entitled to say that *I think* it is an outrageous price for an adult dog, part trained or not...and in this case, not.
Re your dogs doing well away from home, horses for courses, some dogs cope better than others, a read through of posts on here could confirm that not every dog is the same 

Agree re socialisation though


----------



## Broodle (19 October 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			OP volunteered the info about the money therefore I feel entitled to say that *I think* it is an outrageous price for an adult dog, part trained or not...and in this case, not.
Re your dogs doing well away from home, horses for courses, some dogs cope better than others, a read through of posts on here could confirm that not every dog is the same 

Agree re socialisation though 

Click to expand...

Fair enough!   I just thought the comments about the price weren't helpful in the context.

And fair comment about the coping away from home thing too, but I think that it is probably also unhelpful to give the impression that the OPs problems might just go away once the dog settles in (which I know isn't what you/others were saying, but is something that can be inferred from the idea).


----------



## CAYLA (19 October 2011)

The_original_Kao said:



			Sorry completely off topic but.....CAYLA can you find me a female lab like the boy you described pretty please 

Click to expand...


I could have ..........LAST WEEK We have rehomed a fair few labs this months, a fab (very well bred bitch) just last week


----------



## s4sugar (19 October 2011)

How old is this dog as from the Op's comments it is just a puppy?
In what way did it fail as a gundog?

BTW I agree the price was extortionate for a "not quite all it could be" older puppy or young adult & at what age was it castrated?


----------



## The Original Kao (19 October 2011)

CAYLA said:



			I could have ..........LAST WEEK We have rehomed a fair few labs this months, a fab (very well bred bitch) just last week

Click to expand...

Damn  just missed out. Please let me know if anything else comes in, doesn't have to be a pure bred lab either.


----------



## tori252 (19 October 2011)

1k for a part gun trained dog thats not working anymore. Madness. My spring was ALOT less from pup and is the most brilliant dog in ANY situation. Rehome the dog to someone who beats or can have it out all day and get thee a pup. Hard work. Yes. B


----------



## tori252 (19 October 2011)

I wouldnt trust a dog that wasnt in the house before baby or grown up with it


----------



## Fii (19 October 2011)

Did your lab go for the other dog while your child was there?
 Could be he is very protective of your child.
  What is he like around the baby?


----------



## echodomino (20 October 2011)

tori252 said:



			I wouldnt trust a dog that wasnt in the house before baby or grown up with it
		
Click to expand...

Technically you shouldn't trust any dog, no matter what it's temperament or history, with a baby. They're animals at the end of the day and as such have their own mind and are unpredictable. Children should never be left alone with dogs.

Just hope that if the OP decides he goes back to his breeder that he doesn't get passed from pillar to post


----------



## Spudlet (20 October 2011)

It took Henry a good six months to really settle down and be himself - yes, he now deals with staying with other people and seems ok, but that doesn't mean he's himself and as relaxed as he is at home with me. Three weeks is nothing, nothing at all.

TBH, given the information on this thread, given the fact that the breeder was happy to palm the dog off for a grand onto someone who, with the greatest of respect, seems not to be right for this particular dog, I don't hold out much hope for the future. Sounds like the dog will go to the first person who stumps up the readies, no questions asked.


----------



## Naryafluffy (20 October 2011)

Katie_A said:



			OP - I suspect Cayla has hit the mark with her comment that your dog has probably not often left his breeder's farm, and is therefore not well socialised with dogs outside of his old 'pack'.  This would, I think, explain why he is lunging at other dogs out walking, especially if he is on the lead and therefore has no escape route from the (to him) scary other dogs.

!
		
Click to expand...

Agree, my friend had 3 dogs and took 2 puppies from her brothers accidental litter (2 puppies from the same litter is an entirely different thread) so there were 5 dogs on the yard, plus another couple that other people brought to visit, I always thought they were well socialised until I took the female off yard to do a bit of agility, it wanted to kill every other dog in sight (and she's not a big dog), she did eventually settle down at the dog agility but with rather a lot of grumbling. Started obedience classes with her earlier this year and again, different dogs, they all deserved to die, we stuck it out and whilst she still wants to savage other dogs when she's on the leash if I let her off leash she's great (has actually started to learn to play with the other dogs, but that could just be that no one can resist playing with the ridgeback youngster and he's pretty insistent that everyone plays!!!).
Could you try taking him for a walk with friends dogs and letting them off leash, I never thought I would be brave enough to do this, but we now walk most nights with her brother and my friends 2 ridgies and sometimes my bosses ridgie gets dragged along as well (he does get into trouble from her frequently but then he acts like tigger on speed so I can see her point)


----------



## Spudlet (20 October 2011)

Spudlet said:



			TBH, given the information on this thread, given the fact that the breeder was happy to palm the dog off for a grand onto someone who, with the greatest of respect, seems not to be right for this particular dog, I don't hold out much hope for the future. Sounds like the dog will go to the first person who stumps up the readies, no questions asked.

Click to expand...

Re-reading that, I should clarify that I'm criticising the breeder and not the OP.


----------



## CL66 (20 October 2011)

I think, going back to the original question, you'd be very lucky to get a penny out of the people you bought the dog from.  Not because I think you've done anything wrong, but IMO they ripped you off in the first place, selling you effectively a 'failed' gundog (if it wouldn't do it's job and hence 'needed' a family home) at the price of a trained gundog.  Not that that's your fault, i guess you just had some high expectations of a trained gundog (excellent recall, work on leash etc) trouble is dogs behave differently when working and when out on a ramble.  

So, best bet is to either take the hit on the money and try and rehome it elsewhere or maybe give a few months and see if it improves with time/training.

But sadly think you'll have to accept the money is long gone.


----------



## CorvusCorax (20 October 2011)

There is a wider issue here and not aimed as a kick to the OP but to any potential buyer.

There are a lot of shysters out there (more?) not automatically suggesting that this is the case in this instance but we do get a lot of people who have been told, this is a working pup because all the relatives have their qualifications, paid out £££, the dog is not interested in food or a ball/toy at all - desire for those things is the basis of all the training we do and should be in the genetics.

This is a show dog, £££, it is a longcoat so cannot be shown, it's ears have not come up, it walks like a kangaroo, etc etc etc. 

Dogs imported/sold for ££££ with all their qualifications and whistles and bells, that look at you blankly when you throw a dumbbell or lay a track.
People who take in dogs for training, take lots of money and return a dog who does that ^^^

If you're (anyone) being asked for a tonne of cash for a dog because it is supposed to be trainer or part trained or have all these amazing attributes, ASK to see it doing what it is supposed to have been trained to do, the seller should be happy to demonstrate, even on a video or web link. 
If it's a pup, ask to see video or in-person demonstration of the mother and father displaying some sort of aptitude for a task.

Buyer beware of course, but it is becoming harder these days to take people at face value.


----------



## PolarSkye (20 October 2011)

blackcob said:



			Dogs are disobedient because they have no idea what is being asked of them, are undermotivated to comply, or something else has 'won' at the time, like a fleeing squirrel (dogs are products of their genes - they are predators, they 'live in the moment' (one thing Cesar Milan got right), they are highly social, they are oppotunistic scavengers, 'it's all chew toys to them' and are wholly self interested). They are not capable of staying up at night planning how to take over the family or understanding of concepts like revenge. 

Training involves a steady history of reinforcement, a supplied motivation, generalisation to the context in which the command is given and proofing the behaviour against competing motivation in order to = 100% obedience. 

Dogs are born unaware that they are in a culture in which biting is not acceptable. Fight + flight is a natural response to increase the distance between the dog and whatever has spooked them. Which reaction a dog displays is partly in their genetic makeup and partly historical - if they've scared off a dog that scared them in the past by lunging and snarling, they will lunge and snarl at anything else that approaches them in a manner in which they are not comfortable with. 

This is all tied in with the person on the end of the lead - you know your dog will react badly to other dogs so you punish the behaviour - voices are raised, the lead is held tight, the dog throttled back, everybody is tense, the dog is forced to sit and be throttled and watch as something he totally doesn't know how to interact with passes him by and he's fearful, he's anxious, so is the owner and it's all transmitted down the leash and in the body language. The entire situation is stressful - the dog generalises to understand that other dogs - stress. Maybe the other dog is the same, hasn't been adequately socialised - there's a face-off.
		
Click to expand...

The most sensible and coherent reply on this thread so far . . . totally agree with all of it.

We learned the hard way about "energy" and how being fearful or anticipating a problem only means you set your dog up to be fearful/have a problem.  Dogs do not need to be dominated to learn how to behave in your home - but they do need leadership and guidance.  Being firm but fair and very, very consistent is the way to teach your dog right from wrong.  Being dominant and/or aggressive will only result in a fear aggressive dog.  An example:

We had a lovely staffie/collie cross called Tilly.  We adopted her from a rescue when she was 6 months old or so.  She was our first dog.  The shelter told us she was possessive of her food and a little hyper and that she had been rehomed because she had been beaten up by another dog in the house.  All of the above should have rung loud warning bells - but I felt sorry for her.  Biiiiiiiiiiiig mistake.  We brought her home and she proceeded to go totally barmy . . . I don't think she had any idea how to live in a home - she had zero manners.  She also didn't know how to play.  She was, however, extremely sweet with both of my children (staffies aren't known as the nanny dog without good reason).  She was very food aggressive - we taught her to sit and wait for her food which helped, and we taught her "leave it" if food dropped on the floor, but we didn't put her in situations where either she or we would be challenging each other over food.  She wasn't allowed on the furniture because she would growl if she was moved and she was very, very unsure of/worried about elderly men.  Three days after we got her, my girls were walking her in the park (thankfully with my OH) when she was viciously attacked by another dog.  About six months after we got Tilly, I thought she might like a companion (yes, I know . . . ) and went back to the shelter.  They had a litter of puppies and I brought one of them home.  Fred is a collie/jrt cross and walked into our house like he owned the place.  Tilly took an instant dislike to him, but aside from teaching him some manners now and again, just tolerated him.  They didn't play together, they didn't curl up together and Fred learned early on to stay well away from food when Tilly was around.  Not long after Freddie arrived, Tilly was really poorly with an obstruction in her gut - she had life-saving surgery.  Shortly after she came home from the vet, Fred accidentally bounced on her and she tore into him . . . ripped a hole in one ear and the poor boy shat himself in fright.  This was the beginning of a pattern . . . Tilly would tear a strip off Fred for getting above himself (although never actually hurting him) and Fred would become ultra submissive.  This went on for three years - a "spat" about once every 8 months or so.  One day my girls were walking both dogs when, for no reason we could see, Tilly went for Fred - and didn't stop.  A passerby had to pull her off him - the girls were terrified.  I put it down to some food or a food wrapper that the girls hadn't noticed.  About three weeks later, she did it again - and this time Fred fought for his life and she landed him in the hospital with multiple really deep bite wounds requiring stitches - there was blood everywhere.  From that moment on, they couldn't be in the same room without Tilly going for him - and Fred was so terrified of her that he wouldn't even walk past her if she were crated.  I do think that Tilly should never have been homed with another dog - and that we were idiots for bringing another dog into the house.  I also believe, however, that despite getting lots and lots of help to try and resolve the issue, we (actually my eldest daughter) couldn't help her past it because we were too worried about it happening again.  We created tension that kept us all stuck - and we just couldn't get past it - Em used to go and stand outside in the cold and the dark rather than be in the same room with both dogs.  It broke our hearts, but in the end we decided to take Tilly back to the shelter so she could find another home where she would be the only dog and could live with people experienced at handling dogs with issues.  We know that she has found such a home and is very happy now, but we still miss her (three years later).  

I don't believe that your dog is a problem dog, I just think it needs to learn how live in a family setting and deal with other dogs/people - but I do think you haven't spent enough time getting to know the dog or allow it to settle - I also think that as long as you are expecting a problem, you will get one.  

What you have described is a very intelligent dog with a busy brain - and one that has been used to having a job to do.  Just going for a walk with you (however long the walk may be) and your little one in a buggy isn't really a substitute for the kind of stimulation this particular dog has been used to.  Also, if the dog needs to learn some walking manners (e.g., how to meet and greet other dogs/walkers) then you're better off walking it when you can give it your undivided attention, i.e., without your daughter.  

P


----------



## Cop-Pop (20 October 2011)

The people who bred Yellow Dog keep a couple back from every other litter as he's a game keeper.  If one of them doesn't work out as a gundog then its generally given away for free or a nominal amount of money - he offered an 18 month old one to me last year for £50.  He sold a fully trained one with experience for about 1k...


----------



## PolarSkye (20 October 2011)

pinky1401 said:



			Hi

I need some advice, we have had a dog for three weeks. He isn't what we were told he was. I can't walk him happily as he shows aggression to other dogs, chases cows etc. He is a part trained gundog and we wanted a part trained dog as we have a small child who has to be in a buggy when I walk the dog so it needed to be well behaved on the lead and off - it isn't. Therefore he isn't suited to us and we are returning him. We paid serious money for him and have been told that we won't get any back as now the dog isn't the same as when they sold him to us. While he has been with us he actually attacked another dog.

I'm really sad about this and frustrated we aren't rich and have spent nearly £1,000 on this dog so far. Do I have any leg to stand on or are they right?

S x
		
Click to expand...

A reputable breeder would be happy to have the dog back - their dogs carry their reputation with them.  Whether or not they would refund your £££, I don't know.  Why did you think a part-trained gundog would make a suitable family pet?

P


----------



## NOISYGIRL (20 October 2011)

We rehomed an English Springer, she was 14 months old at the time, I had no idea what training she had we just had to have her as the original owners decided they didn't want her anymore, she had a few temporary homes before finally coming to us.  She had no recall, pulled on the lead.

Took a while and she's still not 100% on recall sometimes she's like yeh in a minute, but I like her to come when I say not when she feels like it.  Took a good few months go get her out of the pulling but its worked and she walks lovely on the lead now.  Previous owners used to shut her in a cupboard if they had visitors, not sure if thats why she doesn't like the car, small space ?

Anyway, all I'm trying to say is you haven't given this poor dog much time, he's already had the upheaval of moving to you, now going back.  

I think you have to have a bond before they start to trust you etc, I had perfect recall with my GSD but I had him from a puppy and I think it makes a BIG difference.  

I'm not sure many dogs would recall to someone they didn't know.

Couldn't you take the pushchair out empty with him a few times ? He may not have seen one in his life, everything is new etc . . . . 

Its like that bloke off country wide I was watching the other week, he wanted a trained sheepdog cos he didnt' have time to train it himself, he went to see a professional breeder/trainer of them and he tried to command the dog who promptly didn't listen and she said it takes time, that dog only knew her whistle/commands her voice.

Its sad for the dog, funny how they didn't keep it if it was already living in their family home, makes you think doesn't it ??

You say you've spent £1000 on it so far, on what ? was that how much you paid for it ? can't believe it, although I saw bulldogs in the paper the other day for over £1000, mine was free


----------



## NOISYGIRL (20 October 2011)

Where is it being sent back to ? the farm or the family home ?


----------



## devilwoman (20 October 2011)

I'd just like to add my two penneth if I may   this is long so please bear with me ----

About 10 years ago I took on a 4 year old rescue boxer, I had had a boxer previously for 7 years until I sadly lost him and so was very very aware of the breed, this dog was told to me to be very good with children, on lead, in home etc, etc, (at the time my children were 4 and 6 years).

On the 2nd day we had the dog my husband put his arm out to stroke him and he lunged at him and bit him on the hand, quite nasty but we made excuses that he needed to settle etc, so he got reprimanded and it was forgotten, for the next 3 or 4 weeks he showed serious signs of aggression towards my husband only, never me or the children, but also a very very bad agression with other dogs when out walking.

After we'd had him approximatley a month, my husband took him for a walk, around the corner came another guy with a small collie on a lead also, our dog pounced onto the other dog seriously attacking him, my husband dragged him off obviously but in the scuffle got bitten very badly on the elbow, when he got home with the dog I was standing in the kitchen cooking, the dog came into me all waggy tailed, my husband closed the front door was ranting and raving telling me what had happened to the other dog, as he told me about himself getting bitten he raised his arm to show me the bite he got and at that point it was horrendous, the dog just ran at him full pelt up the hallway and lunged onto him, he knocked him to the floor (bearing in mind this was a large entire dog) and was standing over him making the most horrendous savaging noises, I grabbed the dog by the collar and dragged him off and into the garden slamming the door behind him, I myself got bitten in the "rescue" on both hands between the fingers, my husband was a mess, the top of his jeans were like they'd been through a lawnmower and his skin underneath looked the same, he also had several puncture wounds up his arms, hands etc,   I phoned an ambulance as my hubby blacked out, they took him to hospital, in the meantime my mum came to look after the children (who I hasten to add I had thrown into the living room and shut the door on them so they were safe) and I took the dog to the nearest vet and had him pts.  I think what i'm trying to say is I understand where this lady is coming from regardless of whether she paid for this dog or not, children are too precious to risk and although that dog never ever made any noise towards my kids, he COULD have done, or they COULD have got caught in the crossfire and if they do get caught in it it is catastrophic.  As a mother (and one who absolutely loves my animals, the horses and the dogs alike) I love my children more and would not ever put them at any unnecessary risk again.


----------



## Ravenwood (20 October 2011)

I've only skim read this thread so may be making some incorrect assumptions but...

I am assuming that this dog (is it confirmed to be a lab?) has been bred and trained by a field trialler.  These dogs are an awful lot sharper and more highly strung than your average pet lab.  Field triallers sell a lot of dogs that don't make the grade, for lots of money, as part trained - its very common.  Its takes a lot of time before you know whether the dog will be up to competition standard or not and the dog will have gone through the same training process as a top FTCH up until he was sold.

I really wouldn't recommend anyone buying a dog from these circumstances as a family pet without expecting some trouble on the way - if at all!

I am also assuming (correct me if I am wrong) but the fact that you (OP) mention that you meet a lot of dogs on your daily walks, you are not in a rural area.

To be completely frank here - if all of my assumptions above are correct then unfortunately you have an awful lot of work in front of you to turn that dog into the family pet lab that you thought he would be.

Start off by looking at his diet - make sure he is on a low protein food.  Why are you the only one to walk him with your daughter?  Why can't OH take him out too?   Does he ever get a run off lead?  If not I am guessing he is a very frustrated dog!

Personally I doubt you will get a penny back from where you bought him, if you are looking to claw back your money, advertise him in the Shooting Times with a full explanation and let him go to a home where his needs will be met.

Once bitten, twice shy eh?  Better off going to a commercial type charity for your next dog!


----------



## Toffee44 (20 October 2011)

I havent read beyond page 4 but thought I would just say this:

I have got Teal, who I got through here. Described well trained, good with other dogs etc 

Well I have had him since Feb and only now as in the last few weeks have I got a dog thats stopped being aggressive (nervous/ protective to me related). A dog that is showing to be well trained and polite. 

All I will say is that dogs like horses need time!!

Teal is to a degree gun dog trained and is a lab x springer spaniel, I love him to pieces but it has a been a bit bumpy. I was totally gutted when what I though was going to be a easy run turned into a lot of socialisation and training again. We went hugely backwards just after I lost his dad, who I adopted him with. He started weeing indoors, barking at other dogs (before it was just a growl). 

But the last few weeks ahve been lovely, we also have a STOP. And will be attending an informal shoot next month, cant wait    (informal being it is on my friends land with his friends and their dogs about 5-8 guns in total and as long as the dog has recall you're welcome actually tempted to take Dylan (11month old rottweiler x )as his stop is better than Teals lol)


----------

