# 9mth Lab puppy with severy hip dysplasia



## Imogen Rose (14 January 2014)

Hello everyone,

Just had some devastating news. Had pups hips x-rayed under full anaesthetic. He has the worst case of hip dysplacia in a dog my vet has ever seen, he was visably shocked.

Pups is on pain meds and anti inflamatories which seem to be helping for now. He has been on short lead only walks for a while now, and is on a very low protien diet.

I have done lots of research on the various surgeries and drug therapies.

Please can someone tell me this is not a death sentance for my puppy? I dont want him to live a life of pain, and my dad dosent think he should have surgery as he dosent think it is fair.

Do dogs make a good recovery? How long could he live for not in pain?

If we dont do surgery, how long are we looking at before his pain isnt acceptable?

A bit devastated really. He is the first posh lab we have ever owned. At number 5 we decided to ddo it the usual way and choose a breeder with a good reputation, find parents with good hipscores etc... the previous 4 are rescues and a pet mating with no health tests and are healthy as horses... cant do right for doing wrong it seems.

Sorry for the length of post... many thanks for reading x


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## Clodagh (15 January 2014)

That is so sad.
It has to be up to you about the surgery, I wouldn't but it is an individual choice. I would be thinking what life is it for a pup to have to walk quietly on the lead, too much pain to play, not allowed to run and be silly.
If you decide to keep him going, with or without surgery, make sure you have a neutral person assessing his wellbeing, it is easy to be caught up in emotion and convince yourself they are doing fine.
Thinking of you, what an awful thingt o have to deal with.


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## s4sugar (15 January 2014)

Clodagh said:



			That is so sad.
It has to be up to you about the surgery, I wouldn't but it is an individual choice. I would be thinking what life is it for a pup to have to walk quietly on the lead, too much pain to play, not allowed to run and be silly.
If you decide to keep him going, with or without surgery, make sure you have a neutral person assessing his wellbeing, it is easy to be caught up in emotion and convince yourself they are doing fine.
Thinking of you, what an awful thingt o have to deal with.
		
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Absolutely.
I would do the same as although the operation can be done should it be done? Vets are often quick to suggest hip replacements but don't consider te long term effects. 

Have you contacted the breeder & the breed club?


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## CorvusCorax (15 January 2014)

Did you see the plates/take a photo of the plates on your phone?


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## s4sugar (15 January 2014)

CaveCanem said:



			Did you see the plates/take a photo of the plates on your phone?
		
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Good point - not all vets take acceptable plates nor can they read them.


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## CorvusCorax (15 January 2014)

That's what I was thinking - not meaning to be cynical or give you false hope but I have heard some near horror stories of dogs scheduled for major surgery which did not require it.

A member on here posted plates from a very doom and gloom prognosis - the positioning of the legs by the vet and the quality of the x-rays was shocking.


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## lachlanandmarcus (15 January 2014)

My border terrier was diagnosed with very very bad dysplasia at 6 months and we were told both hip balls such as they were would need removing :-O the x rays were awful.

In prep for the op we used Synoquin MSM and glucosamine and also did a course of hydrotherapy.

At the end of 3 months she was sound and re x rayed and the x rays showed the muscle theta had developed was supporting the joint. 

This dog is now 11 years old and hasn't had a lame day in her life since then. We do limit her exercise and make sure she stays reasonably slim. 

I'm not saying the vets are wrong but with a diagnosis at a young age when the dog isn't fully developed yet then it is possible that the approach we used might also produce dramatic results. 

I would never have done this approach for so long if she was in any seeming pain. And the ops would have been covered by insurance so it wasn't a money thing. NB labs are heavier than terries so it MIGHT not work as well, but may be worth trying before an op provided that doesn't mean any insurance time limits run out.


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## hippo66hippo66 (15 January 2014)

Hi

Our rottie was diagnosed when she was around 8 months old - we were sent to a  hip specialist by our vet after we had asked for a second opinion. I was sure that he would advise us to PTS as our own vet had done and was in bits but the guy was very realistic with us - his waiting room was full of rotties at various stages both pre and post op. 

At this point she was too young for the surgery so he advised us to take her home use the pain killers if needed, short walks etc and see how she got on - we decided to put her on a joint supplement as well, he also asked that we monitor her weight to make sure that she didn't get over weight as this could stress the joints.

She was on the joint supplement for the rest of her life but she was fine - we watched her especially when the weather was cold and damp but she coped with it and would bounce around the garden like a puppy - we always agreed that if she started suffering then we would PTS 

Please don't think that this is the end - is there a specialist that you could ask to be sent to? Your puppy is only young and is still developing just like our girl was.


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## CorvusCorax (15 January 2014)

Call me old fashioned but 8-9 months is way too early to diagnose a doom and gloom scenario requiring a big surgery, especially in a large, late maturing breed, when the joints have not even finished forming properly.


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## blackcob (15 January 2014)

It depends on what is meant by 'severe' hip dysplasia really. I recently encountered a similar aged dog which had the most unbelievable x-ray - it almost had no hips at all, just a rough jagged mess where ball and sockets should have been. It was already in significant pain, unable to rise without assistance and only mobile for short distances. That particular dog would almost certainly not have any quality of life without surgery.

As above, a milder case may improve simply with age (or by benefit of better x-rays!) but also be manageable with painkillers, suitable exercise, supplementation etc.

Most of your questions are best answered by your vet or, if you're not 100% convinced their treatment plan is best, ask to be referred to a specialist for a second opinion (which may or may not involve surgery, don't panic just yet  ).

FWIW I know dogs with bilateral hip replacements and they seem to do very well. My own dog has a big chunk of titanium holding one of her knees together and she's returned to work as a sled dog and competes in agility, the big orthopaedic ops really can have fantastic results these days.


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## Allfourfeet (15 January 2014)

It's certainly not the end of the road. I'm with everyone else defiantly give him some more time, as sometimes it does plateau between 1-2 years. My first dog was diagnosed at 8 months with also 'worst case of HD my vet has ever seen'. We ended up going for surgery BUT only after we had exhausted other options.

We first tried numerous painkillers to try keep him comfy to see if as he grew they would be more supported but we never managed to control him pain, he was that bad. It was truly heartbreaking. It was at this point we first considered pts as I couldn't watch him be in pain. We then tried the prescription diet and hydrotherapy. Also made no difference except make him in more pain. It was then I ask for a referral to a specialist. At this point he was 12 months, he was in pain, couldn't go go for even a short lead walk, couldn't play with his toys, and literally walked on four tracks with his feet his gait was that affected. 

Specialist lined up our options; pts, hip replacement or femoral head ostectomy. Now I love my dog, he's e apple of my eye and I will always put his best interests first and after ALOT of questions and research we opted for he double femoral head ostectomy. We ruled out pts when the specialist believed he could have a decent quality of life afterwards, as this was my main worry, so I couldn't not give him a chance.. We also opted for the FHO over the hip replacement as he believed it would be better for his build and there wouldn't be a huge difference in his mobility afterwards between them.

All I can say if it's the best hardest decision I've ever made. It was hard, heartbreaking and soul destroying at times, after each hip (he had them done separately)  he struggled, but now.. Approaching two years old he is the happiest dog I've ever had. He can finally run for hrs, jump on the sofa, is completely off any medication and it's made every second worth it. Many people would of pts but the way I see it is he's now happy, pain free and hopefully has many, many happy years a head if him.


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## Saneta (15 January 2014)

Is it possible to ask for a referral to a specialist orthopeadic vet, for them to do some thorough testing before torturing yourself with possible scenarios?  9 months is very young.  If you had a bitch and were considering breeding from her, you wouldn't have hips x-rayed until she was properly formed, say at least 18 months would you?

Your final comments about choosing the right pup from parents with good hip scores, really made me sad.  There doesn't seem to be any rhyme nor reason to it all does there?  I guess the parents having good hip scores can only act as a guide as to how the pups will develop.  In the last few weeks, I know 2 beautiful fit and healthy Labs having to go through the cruciate operation, with the aftercare being even more of a problem.  We can only ever try our best, and support when things go wrong...
Good luck OP, please let us know how you get on.


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## Nicnac (15 January 2014)

Firstly, I'd go to a specialist unit such as Fitzpatrick Referrals in Goldalming or the one I took my Bernese to in Bletchingley Surrey (North Downs Specialist Referrals) and get them to look at the plates you had taken.  From there take their advice as to best next steps.

Having had 4 Bernese Mountain Dogs I unfortunately have some experience of HD.  My second berner was the runt of the litter and her right hip was partially dislocated at birth and the joint was deformed. She had a femoral head ostectomy at the age of 4 months and lived until she was 11.  Yes she was always a bit wonky but pain-free and we did quite a bit of hydrotherapy with her to keep her soft tissue strong.  She was uninsured.  She was also the sweetest dappiest Bernese I have ever known.

My current dog is rising 8 and comes from the same line as my 3rd one - all animals with excellent hip and elbow scores going way back.  Unfortunately his near elbow and offside hip are "the worst I've ever seen" according to a vet from xrays taken when he was 18 months.  I took him to NDSR for an MRI to find his cervical vertebrae were also impinging - think kissing spines equivalent.  We discussed all the options (he was insured at the time) and decided with the specialists to leave him as he is.  With careful management and physio he has had a great life.  As he is now getting on a bit I do have him on low levels of Metacam just to keep him comfortable.

There are so many options nowadays and it's not necessarily the end of the road for your girl.  Good luck!


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## Imogen Rose (15 January 2014)

Hi, sorry I havent replied sooner, I have been at university.
Thanks for all your experiences and information.
I unfortunately didn't get to see the x-rays as my mum went with him. I will suggest that she gets him referred to that specialist in godalming, they will have a better idea than our local vet.
The vet was very pushy for the surgery from the sounds of it, so I will have to make sure they arnet being rushed into a decision. He is fully insured so it dosen't matter money wise what we do.
I have been giving them loads of information from the internet about their options, but it is nice to hear other peoples successes.

I have phoned the breeder and told the couple, they were really really upset and apologetic but it isnt their fault. they were going to breed from his litter sister so are obviously now concerned.

We got him x-rayed because he had the bunny hop walk and couldnt trot, and he needed painkillers for his legs. Now that he is on them his pain is much more controlled, and he has started to 'trot'. He still playes in the garden and around the house like a madman, and when he is too tired to run he turns upside down and bites the older boy on his chest and hangs of his neck for fun...they both seem to love it so he hasnt lost his sparkle yet.I really appreciate everyones replies, last night it was a bit heart breaking!x


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## Goldenstar (15 January 2014)

One of our pups from our dog had hip dysphasia  she showed mild lameness at 18 months the vet was shocked by the X-rays as both parents had good scores and had where tough sound dogs it was all doom and gloom .
The ops etc where not aviable then we never let her follow the horses we never let her jump except into the car apart from that she lived a normal life until dieing of a stroke in her teens having never shown significant lameness .


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## satinbaze (15 January 2014)

Kennel club/bva hip scores are not done until the dog is at least 12 months old. This is due to the growth plates not being mature until then. Personally I would ask the breed club for recommendation of vets that do regular hip scoring and the. Have him scored properly at 12 months. A friend of mind had her FCR crated at 8 months as he was lame to be told v bad hips. Took him to a vet that foes regular hip scores plates sent off for official scores came back as 5:3 =8 but had v bad slipping patella. 
Good luck and hope hour dog is okay


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## Aru (15 January 2014)

bva scoring and hip scoring a pup showing discomfort and clinical signs of hip dysplasia are two very different things.
if the image is taken right at a young age it can be seen as very obviously dysplastic if its severe as the damage build up will be there as well as the laxity points that you look for in the bva scoring scheme.damage to the joint and bone remodelling is fairly diagnostic and hard to mistake. moderate to mild cases are entirely different as muscle mass around the pelvis can change these and stabilise the area the dog ages. 

mild dysplasia can wait til the dog is older and the muscle mass has a chance to build up to see will that help to stabilise the joint.

but in severe cases where there is already a large amount of damage and bone remodelling is present then time is not going to improve the integrity of the joint.more damage is likely to be going on as the pup is moving about so the issue needs to be addressed.

many of the hip dysplasia ops for pups are less invasive as they take advantage of the lack of fusion and low muscle mass present and the puppy ops are much less extreme than joint replacement or cutting off the top of the femur (femoral head osteotomy)

Op take yourself to a specialist and get all your options.the decisions made now will have an impact the rest of the pups life so you should get all the information and specialist help you can.


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## Cinnamontoast (15 January 2014)

s4sugar said:



			Good point - not all vets take acceptable plates nor can they read them.
		
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Tell me about it!



CaveCanem said:



			A member on here posted plates from a very doom and gloom prognosis - the positioning of the legs by the vet and the quality of the x-rays was shocking.
		
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Me? I was frankly appalled at the rubbish quality, the vet didn't even block his legs, so of course the x ray looked appalling. Definitely get an expert to do x rays.

Honestly, Zak seems fine for 'normal' walks, we're careful with him and make him swim a lot in warmer weather, but I think (may change our minds) that we would consider quality of life above all if he worsened.


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## Alec Swan (15 January 2014)

No matter how well insured a dog of mine may be,  I would never put it through the type of remedial surgery that HD would call for.  It would worry me that I was acting for my benefit and my sense of worth,  and not the dog's.  It would worry me that the animal wouldn't understand why it was suffering.  If we are to claim that we respect the animal,  and that we care for it,  then we have to demonstrate that by making decisions on behalf of the dog.  I agree,  it's difficult,  but if we're to consider the animal that we care for,  then that's what we do.

OP,  if your vet's as convinced of the gravity of the puppy's problem,  as they seem to be,  then it *should* be obvious whilst the puppy is at a walk.  The worst of hips are there to be seen by the naked eye.  Xrays are superfluous.

Sometimes life's a bummer.

Alec.


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## sheddy00 (16 January 2014)

I have had experience of 2 labs with displaysia, 1 st one we had operated she could barely walk by the time she was 10.. and she was a well built girl. 2nd dog we didn't have the op. And his xrays were far worse..was told he wouldn't be able to walk by 3 yrs old.. both went to a specialist clinic halfway across the country.. this worked for us..keep the dog very lean...Yes it's a lab and they love food..lol. plenty of swimming.ours used to swim in rivers and lakes even in the snow. He loved it. He was well muscled on his legs from swimming. Not miles of walking. But let him do what he wants to do running around. We had a very fit happy dog who only needed pain meds on the coldest of winter days.vets were amazed at his fitness/ ability. Though I did get the odd comment from vet nurses about his weight. But vet said it was the best treatment for displaysia.and wished all owners would do the same.his muscles from swimming helped hold his joints in place. So there is a bright future for you.


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## MiniMilton (16 January 2014)

We had a lab with severe HD. This is going back nearly 30 years now. She had first hip operated on as 1 yo (she was also hit by a car) second hip operated some months later. I don't recall how long the recovery took, but she led a long and active life, pain free for most of it, just arthritis setting in at normal age. She was PTS at 15. In hind sight she should have been PTS a lot sooner as she had other age related issues. All in all she had a good 12 years.

Not all stories will be so positive, so I just thought I'd share Sandy's story. Good luck with your pup


Eta  we had a great vet


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## Dry Rot (16 January 2014)

A very very sad thread.

This would be a no brainer for me but then I am a hard uncaring callous farmer who balances the brief unpleasantness of a lethal injection against a life of pain and suffering for the poor bloody dog.

I am sorry if this post upsets some people but someone needs to put the other side of the equation. I just do not think it is fair on the dog and I suspect the main objections to PTS are that the humans involved will be upset and the vets will lose out on some very lucrative work.

I will now go away and crawl back under my stone.


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## MiniMilton (16 January 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			A very very sad thread.

This would be a no brainer for me but then I am a hard uncaring callous farmer who balances the brief unpleasantness of a lethal injection against a life of pain and suffering for the poor bloody dog.

I am sorry if this post upsets some people but someone needs to put the other side of the equation. I just do not think it is fair on the dog and I suspect the main objections to PTS are that the humans involved will be upset and the vets will lose out on some very lucrative work.

I will now go away and crawl back under my stone.
		
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My dog had a happy pain free active 12 years going hill walking etc before normal age related issues set in. You would never have known she had HD or surgery. Should she have been PTS?


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## lachlanandmarcus (16 January 2014)

MiniMilton said:



			My dog had a happy pain free active 12 years going hill walking etc before normal age related issues set in. You would never have known she had HD or surgery. Should she have been PTS?
		
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Same here except my terrier is 11 and still no signs of any issues. I'm all for PTS in the right circumstances but in our case it would have been and has been proved to be completely unnecessary. 

Slightly OTT Dry Rot, what the comments on here have demonstrated is

-if HD is really bad enough and dog is fully grown and clearly in pain then op or PTS are the correct options
-That is not the case with the OPs dog
-Lots of other cases of vets saying 'the worst hips I've ever seen' have gone on to have happy healthy pain free lives, in some cases with zero surgical intervention.


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## CorvusCorax (16 January 2014)

If a dog was going to be lamed/crippled through HD or any other condition then yes I would PTS rather than go through major surgery, JMO though.
I do know a dog with 'severe' HD and ED on paper, who is incredibly active, and have seen dogs with very high hip and elbow scores which moved beautifully.


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## Dry Rot (16 January 2014)

MiniMilton said:



			My dog had a happy pain free active 12 years going hill walking etc before normal age related issues set in. You would never have known she had HD or surgery. Should she have been PTS?
		
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No. You should have got another vet if he made a wrong diagnosis. I'd probably have sued him for good measure! I was at vet college long enough to become cynical. Not all vets are saints and some haven't a clue.

The one exception does not prove that all dogs diagnosed with HD, especially at the young age of 9 months, will live happily and pain free for another 11 years.

Who are we considering here? The owner or the dog?


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## Alec Swan (16 January 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			A very very sad thread.

This would be a no brainer for me but then I am a hard uncaring callous farmer who balances the brief unpleasantness of a lethal injection against a life of pain and suffering for the poor bloody dog.

I am sorry if this post upsets some people but someone needs to put the other side of the equation. I just do not think it is fair on the dog and I suspect the main objections to PTS are that the humans involved will be upset and the vets will lose out on some very lucrative work.

I will now go away and crawl back under my stone.
		
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An excellent post with little room for misunderstanding.  Your standpoint has little to do with farming,  I'd suggest,  but more to do with your sense of responsibility.  

When you and I were starting out,  most Vets would counsel against allowing for an animal's suffering.  Today there are a veritable host of practice-supporting insurance policies to be gone through,  before the line is offered "Perhaps,  now that we've tried everything,  we should consider what's in Fido's best interest".  It's all so often the case,  and it's only a shame that they didn't offer this advice from the outset. 

A vet who I know,  very well,  and when I questioned her about the milking of insurance policies,  looked at me and smiled and said "That's what they're there for".  She then said that insurance work was the mainstay of just about every small animal practice,  and without the guaranteed income stream,  there would be far fewer practices.  Her words,  not mine.

Alec.

ETS,  and as a footnote,  should an animal have appalling skeletal flaws,  and manage to live a pain-free life,  then obviously,  there would be no need to shorten the animal's life.  The problem arrises when dogs are kept alive through what many would consider to be reasons which were unethical. a.


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## MurphysMinder (16 January 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			No. You should have got another vet if he made a wrong diagnosis. I'd probably have sued him for good measure! I was at vet college long enough to become cynical. Not all vets are saints and some haven't a clue.

The one exception does not prove that all dogs diagnosed with HD, especially at the young age of 9 months, will live happily and pain free for another 11 years.

Who are we considering here? The owner or the dog?
		
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Why would you consider the vet made a wrong diagnosis? I read it that the dog had surgery for HD and made a great recovery.
With regard to the OP,  I am presuming your dog is showing signs of pain and lameness rather than just puppy looseness?    I certainly wouldn't be dashing into surgery without giving him time , and would second getting a specialist referral.  Only then can you decide if surgery is the route to take.
Some vets will see a puppy that is just a bit wobbly and come to the conclusion that it is HD,  I had this with one of my last litter, the vet decided at 10 weeks old the pup had poor hips because she bunny hopped.  12 months down the line she was hip scored, by a competent vet, and had  a score below the breed average and is absolutely sound.    I have also written on here before about my GSD who at 12 months was x rayed and the hips were described as atrocious by a professor at Liverpool Vet Hospital,  a few years later she was scored and scored in the 90s,  she lived to 13 and never had a days lameness in her life.  She also had a very active life as I decided I would rather she had a short happy life rather than a long restricted one,  she just decided to go for a long happy one.


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## Dry Rot (16 January 2014)

MM ^^^^, so does that prove that a veterinary diagnosis is always correct? By all means get a second opinionand a thirdand a fourth if that is what you want, but you don't mess about with animals. 

If they are sick and unlikely to make a rapid recovery, put them out of their misery. Are there no healthy dogs in the rescues in need of homes? And it seems to me the OP could offer a dog a very good and caring home.

It is exactly 56 years ago that I used to attend surgery at my local vet's to watch him operate prior to my going into veterinary college. I will never forget the vet saying to his nurse with a wry smile, "I hope that we can keep this one going a bit longer as he is a real money spinner!" I think it was at that moment I decided I really didn't want to be a vet.


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## Imogen Rose (16 January 2014)

I have spoken more with my mum, and apparently she saw the x-ray. She said they were crystal clear and that his spine was completely straight.The vet couldnt get a good picture, so this is the third attempt. The vet actually stood in the x-ray room and exposed himself to the radiation to hold my dogs legs in the correct position to get a good x-ray. This makes him go up in my estimation. He is a vet of over 30 years, close to retiring.

Mum said she could see that he had no indentation in the hip for the joint to go into, and he has calcification forming on his hips already.

I understand where you are coming from dry rot, he is happy and pain free on anti inflamatories and painkillers. But without them he cries when he gets up, cries when he trips up or another dog bumps into him, and at times he struggles to walk. I have always said I wouldnt keep a horse going if they had to have bute everyday, just my opinion. But im now in the situation with my puppy.

The puppy was purchased to help everyone get over the loss of an older lab who died suddenly due to splean cancer in february last year and left us devastated. I think this is playing on everyones mind and is making it harder to decide what to do unfortunately.


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## MurphysMinder (16 January 2014)

No, of course a diagnosis isn't always correct, particularly if it is given without x ray, or with a poor quality x ray, I have said this many times on here when HD has been mentioned.  But you seemed to be suggesting that Mini Miltons vet had misdiagnosed and she should even have sued, but there was nothing she posted that suggested to me the dog did not have HD, just that the surgery gave him a long and happy life.


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## Alec Swan (16 January 2014)

Imogen Rose said:



			.......

I understand where you are coming from dry rot, he is happy and pain free on anti inflamatories and painkillers. But without them he cries when he gets up, cries when he trips up or another dog bumps into him, and at times he struggles to walk. I have always said I wouldnt keep a horse going if they had to have bute everyday, just my opinion. But im now in the situation with my puppy.

........
		
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Few will fail to be touched by the plight of your puppy,  or you.  Few will also disagree that maintaining a life,  at any cost,  would be questionable.  The criteria by which you consider a horse's life value,  could perhaps apply to that of your dog,  too.  Your dog,  your choice.

Alec.


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## SusieT (16 January 2014)

I would always get a referral to specialist. In a nutshell what you need to know is:
Prognosis without surgery, if doing well on pain relief then maintain until starts to deteriorate
Prognosis with surgery in exact terms:-length of recovery and what exactly it involves cage rest etc. 
Costs involved. 
Hip ops are very good these days-with good pain relief I see no reason why it would be 'putting the dog trhough' anything nasty.


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## cremedemonthe (16 January 2014)

Nicnac said:



			Firstly, I'd go to a specialist unit such as Fitzpatrick Referrals in Goldalming or the one I took my Bernese to in Bletchingley Surrey (North Downs Specialist Referrals) and get them to look at the plates you had taken.  From there take their advice as to best next steps.
		
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Another vote for Fitzpatrick, they sorted my Lurcher's smashed leg out no problem and she runs like a rocket now, I went there as I could not get an appointment quick enough at North Downs which was annoying as it's only a couple of miles away from me.My lab x staffy has had a TPLO (Tibial-plateau-leveling osteotomy) at my own specialist vet here in Caterham and that leg is fine now, but his other stifle is playing up so maybe he's in for another but I am trying supplements including turmeric, raw virgin coconut oil and Diatomaceous Earth (makes joints more elastic), it all seems to help him so I am monitoring his progress. Good luck with your pup whatever you decide. 
Oz


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## Imogen Rose (25 January 2014)

Hello, just a bit of an update and some more queries...
Pups has got much worse, two 15 min walks a day and his pain isn't controlled by the maximum painkillers he is allowed. 
Part of the problem is that he slips on the tiled floor, so we are going to velcro carpet to the entire groumd floor of the house...
My parents have decided to go for the op where he has the top of the joint removed so it floats. This wasnt my decision, we had a vote and that option came out on top, so that is what he is having done within the next month. The vet said he would have to be older for the double hip op, and this one was more recomended. Either way he cant continue as he is. PTS is what everyone is thinking but it isnt currently an option I can say outloud. The first anniversary of my mums beloved lab's death is the 10th of feb.. the prospect of putting her puppy to sleep practically on this anniversary is destroying her.
 When he cries in pain she sits on the floor and cries with him. She had undiagnosed lymes disease for the first three months after toby's death, and one of the symptoms is severe depression. Pups has helped her through this and the thought of her losing him is unbearable.

Sorry, thats all a bit pointless but I dont really have anyone to say it to.

My main reason for posting is that im very shocked about the breeders response to all this.
Previously my dad spoke to the breeders husband, and they had a manly conversation about it and the breeders husband said he would get his wife to call mum. Anyway, this is now two or so weeks later and the breeder spoke to my mum finally this evening. Her reaction has shocked me and frankly I think it is appauling. 
My mum told her the vets opinion on the dog. Pups mum had a hip score of 11, which the breeder was very proud of. however the vet has commented that she shouldnt have been bred from with a score that high. The breeder went nuts at this and started shouting down the phone to my mum. Apparently mum is slandering her good name, and was really horrible and threatening to her. She repeatedly offered to give us our money back and take the dog back. Mum was adamant that this isnt what she wants and will never give up the dog, and said it isn't about money. The breeder then demanded to have him back so she could put him to sleep, and urged my mum to do it. 
She refuses to acknowledge that it is anything to do with her dog, and berated and blamed my mum for feeding a diet too high in calcium and over walking him. This breeder has kept pups litter sister for breeding and still intends to breed from her.
My mum firmly believes she has no welfare concerns for pups, but that the breeder merely wants all evidence of him destroyed as it threatens her dog breeding business. 

Is the breeder allowed to treat us like this? is it reasonable to suggest it is inherited? should she breed from the other puppy? Is it slander by publishing that we have a dog with hip dyspepsia that she bred?

Thanks for reading x


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## EAST KENT (25 January 2014)

Upsetting though it is the breeder is right.A labrador with a score of 11 is very acceptable,even better if mated to a male of less.We breeders do tend to get cross when vets spout off about stuff outside their remit,it is for instance very annoying when they give their opinion on a puppy`s show potential about which they have no knowledge.Personally I think this puppy is being kept alive and in discomfort for yourselves,not for his own good.It may be that hip head removal will eventually give him a reasonable life..but both legs cannot be done at the same time,so this will mean many months of pain and recovery.Bearing in mind a dog life of say twelve years,six or eight months is a huge slice of it to suffer pain.
  Like Dry Rot I actually dislike stuff like the Fitzpatrick set up,in some cases his procedures are little short of vivisection.Dogs are just dogs,to prolong suffering is a very wrong thing to do.


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## MurphysMinder (25 January 2014)

I too have some sympathy with the breeder. If any vet told me a score of 11 was too high to breed from I would be furious. If this had been a pup I had bred I would have offered a refund but not necessarily asked for return of the pup , however I would probably ask for my vet to see the pup.
It must be heartbreaking for your family but if he is in so much pain I think I would be considering pts if I am honest.


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## satinbaze (25 January 2014)

I presume the bitch's hip score was a total of 11. Hips are normally scored each hip then total eg: 5:5=10. In which case 11 is perfectly acceptable for breeding. Malcolm Willis the GSD man and hip score guru maintained a total of under 15 is acceptable breeding stock. Do you know what the sire's hip score is as obviously he provides 50% of the genes. Unfortunately bad hips can come our if the blue from generations of low hip scored dogs. 
Whilst I feel awful for you and your puppy, I'm not really sure what else the breeder could do for you other than offer money back. 
I am a great believer that we make the best decisions we can at that moment in time. Fingers crossed for the best outcome for your pup.


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## EAST KENT (25 January 2014)

But hip scoring is a funny old thing,and can throw up some nasty surprises.For instance,I mated a Border Collie bitch ,score 14,which was under the breed avaerage at the time;I put her to a New Zealand import with a HD score of 5.The puppies were indeed beautiful,but the male I kept back had a score of 65!
   It is widely recognised now that HD is a result more or less fifty/fifty  of hereditary factors plus rearing and environment,which is probably what the upset breeder was trying to convey.Puppy growth plates do not become firmly attached before nine months or so,later still if neutered young,so too much exercise/type of food etc will play a huge part in the eventual outcome.This puppy needs the right fair decision made sooner rather than later in my honest opinion,for his own good,which should be the only way of thinking


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## mynutmeg (25 January 2014)

Good luck with the ops etc.

I have a collie who is now 10 1/2, she was diagnosed with mild/moderate hip dysplasia at aroun 11 months old (she was x-rayed while being spayed as I had suspisions due to how she was sitting). She was probably 6-7 before she started showing symptoms. Over the last couple of years she has deteriorated quite significiantly however is happy and bouncy on restricted exercise (10-15 minutes off lead a day, she's fairly sensible), regular hydrotherapy sessions, anit-inflammatories and codeine.

I decided not to have any surgery for her partly due to her age and I know she wouldn't cope with the crate rest required and at her age it wasn't fair to put her through that - I think if she was younger I would have made a different decision.

the one thing I would say is before doing any surgery is to have a specialist orthopaedic opinion from one of the major vet schools.


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## Alec Swan (25 January 2014)

I would never operate on any dog,  which has H/D, regardless of age or severity.  If the dog couldn't live a useful and fulfilling life,  without an op,  then so be it,  it would go to heaven. 

Maintaining canine cripples,  in my opinion,  is a level of cruelty which is similar to those who keep the terminally ill animal alive,  and suffering.

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (25 January 2014)

This is purely my opinion, if my dog needed strong pain killers, bits sheared off its bones or lots of metal work in a crucial joint at such a young age then I would be letting him go. I do know dogs which have been graded 'severe' or 'not for breeding' or have cricket score hip scores which have lived long, happy, sound lives but your wee fella sounds like he is in a lot of pain.

Regardless of what you decide to do, I'm really sorry for your Mum's troubles but it is unfair of us humans to use pets as an emotional crutch when their own health is at stake, it is massively stressful for them, and they have no choice in the matter.

I'm lucky enough to have dogs which have lived to as long as 14. I've had dogs we've had to move on pretty young and dogs which have not seen their sixth birthday. It's part of dog ownership, the joy and the pain, sometimes it is just not meant to be.
If you'd told me two years ago that my grey dog would be dead, at such a young age, it would have destroyed me. As it happened, when I watched him fall asleep almost a year ago this week, I was relieved as he was no longer in pain.

As regards hip dysplasia, I believe it's not just mum and dad you have to look at, but generations of clear/low scoring stock. The vet was wrong to say 11 is a high score but equally the breeder should not be verbally abusive.
She IS however offering a refund or to replace/take back the pup which I respect. A bad breeder would not care and would tell you to fill your boots.

Your comment about slippy floors has rung alarm bells, genetically good hips are genetically good hips, but an average/poor set of hips could be made worse by a lot of splaying, slipping or slamming around on a hard surface from a young age.

But anyway, I hope I don't sound judgemental, I do genuinely wish you all the best, whatever you decide.


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## blackcob (25 January 2014)

I don't have a picture of my own dog's ortho op but this is what she has in one of her legs (and a 60% chance of having one in the other leg at some point):







That canine cripple has gone on to live a supremely athletic life free of pain and lameness. The pros and cons of surgery must be considered in light of the individual circumstances, there is no one size fits all approach to things like this. 

That said, as it has been described I am not sure I would choose a surgical route for this dog but the OP and her vet are in possession of much more information than we are.


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## Alec Swan (25 January 2014)

b_c,  at no point have I told others that they should follow my example.  If you choose to operate,  then that's entirely up to you.  It would never be an ordeal that I would put a dog through.  

Without judgement,  the choice is yours.  Similarly,  the choice to not operate,  is mine.

Alec.


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## mynutmeg (25 January 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			I would never operate on any dog,  which has H/D, regardless of age or severity.  If the dog couldn't live a useful and fulfilling life,  without an op,  then so be it,  it would go to heaven. 

Maintaining canine cripples,  in my opinion,  is a level of cruelty which is similar to those who keep the terminally ill animal alive,  and suffering.

Alec.
		
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blackcob said:



			I don't have a picture of my own dog's ortho op but this is what she has in one of her legs (and a 60% chance of having one in the other leg at some point):







That canine cripple has gone on to live a supremely athletic life free of pain and lameness. The pros and cons of surgery must be considered in light of the individual circumstances, there is no one size fits all approach to things like this. 

That said, as it has been described I am not sure I would choose a surgical route for this dog but the OP and her vet are in possession of much more information than we are.
		
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Depending on whats wrong then, for example with hip dysplasia, one of the options is hip replacements which then provides the dog with a pain free, normal life. I chose not to do this for my girl because by the time she needed it she was already 8/9 and it's about 3 months crate rest per hip. I also know that my hyper, neurotic border collie who didn't cope with a lump removal very well wouldn't deal well with the surgery however for a younger dog with a more even temperment then I would certainly consider it - unlike humans once the joint is replaced there would be no need to re-do it at any point as the prostethic joint will outlive the dog.

The femoral head removal can work although my understanding is that it's prefered for smaller dogs and doens't work as well in larger breeds. I know one terrier that had it done and he did regain pretty much full use of his leg


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## zigzag (25 January 2014)

The puppy is on maximum painkillers and still gets pain, do the decent thing and put the poor thing to sleep


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## Alec Swan (26 January 2014)

CaveCanem said:



			.......

Your comment about slippy floors has rung alarm bells, genetically good hips are genetically good hips, but an average/poor set of hips could be made worse by a lot of splaying, slipping or slamming around on a hard surface from a young age.

........
		
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There used to be a lady who bred Labradors called Joan Macan.  She was subsequently murdered under strange very circumstances, but that's another story.  She once offered me a job as a residential dog trainer as she was looking to offer her dogs as dual purpose.  I didn't take the job but during the interview,  she told me that her puppies were never kept on concrete,  and that they were never allowed to be in groups that would play,  feeling as she did,  that HD could be 'encouraged' and that obviously being not what she wanted.

I suspect that just as OCD is a complaint which can be promoted by diet and perhaps an immediate environment,  so HD can also be promoted,  amongst those dogs with a predisposition to the complaint,  and whether such risk should be guarded against and so those dogs with a predisposition should be bred from,  or whether breeding stock should only be sourced from those animals which we'll call 'genetically clean',  is another matter.  Sourcing the breeding stock which only have genetically clean antecedents,  will in itself reduce the gene pool to such a small number that that in itself will foster such problems.  Catch 22!!

50 years ago,  I only really remember HD being present in Labs and GSDs,  and amongst those two breeds,  it was virtually endemic.  I certainly don't remember Collies or Spaniels with the complaint,  and no one yet has explained to me how we've ended up in this state,  a state where inflicted animals are operated on with prosthetic and surgical implants affecting a great many and all with the apparent applause of the veterinary profession.  I suspect that there's a certain collision course for the ethical stance and the financially driven aspect of the veterinary profession,  but that's another story!

Back to the start;  Should puppies be reared in an environment which is likely to give them a degree of protection,  or should they,  through a survival-of-the-fittest regime,  be weeded out?  I'm really not sure of the answer,  or even if there is an answer!

Back in 1994 I had a foal with OCD and the AHT Vet who operated told me that OCD had its first recorded case in 1946,  its second in 1964 and that it had doubled,  every year since to the point where the exponential incidence rate,  over the intervening years effectively meant that just about every horse born was at risk.  As with the spread of HD and other probably genetically influenced complaints,  how on earth have we arrived at this dreadful state?

Alec.


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## MurphysMinder (26 January 2014)

Don't you think it may be that people are more aware of HD so more dogs are being diagnosed now Alec.  Nearly 40 years ago I had a young Jack Russell who was lame on a hind leg, rest and anti inflammatories didn't really help and I pressed my vet to x ray as I felt it was her hip.  My vet (who did all my hip x rays in the GSDs for the old style KC system), laughed and said "you GSD folk are hip obsessed".   However he did x ray, and the hip on the lame leg had a very poor socket and lots of arthritic changes.  She had the surgery to remove the femur head and after a fairly quick convalescence, which involved lots of swimming in the canal (no hydrotherapy pools in those days) she made a full recovery and lived an active life until she was 14 years old.  
I think common sense should be used with young pups, as regard to exercise and do agree that sliding round on slippy floors could cause damage to joints that are already weak.  I remember years ago the idea came , from USA I think, that jumping up on hind legs as young pups caused hd, so a few breeders were rearing their litters in pens with lids on.  I don't know if it made any difference and seemed to be a very short lived fad,  another was giving loads of ascorbic acid to the pup/young dog,  I remember visiting one kennel and they put a real cocktail of vitamins and supplements on their pups feeds, again not sure if it made a difference.


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## Clodagh (26 January 2014)

I think the trouble is it is hard to assess the pain a dog is in. An older dog may be slowing down a lot and you think 'Oh it is just old age' and then perhaps you put it on rimadyl or similar and you think 'Wow, it is young again'. There are a lot of grades of pain below crying out or biting and in a pup how do you assess those? I really feel sorry for you, OP. I am with Alex though, I wouldn't operate on a young dog. Our lab - 7 this year - was lame with elbow problems as a pup. We were offered an op to be followed by months of crate rest but decided just to suck it and see. She has occasional periods of lameness after running in circles, which we strongly discourage, but is generally fine.


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## mynutmeg (26 January 2014)

Alec Swan said:



			There used to be a lady who bred Labradors called Joan Macan.  She was subsequently murdered under strange very circumstances, but that's another story.  She once offered me a job as a residential dog trainer as she was looking to offer her dogs as dual purpose.  I didn't take the job but during the interview,  she told me that her puppies were never kept on concrete,  and that they were never allowed to be in groups that would play,  feeling as she did,  that HD could be 'encouraged' and that obviously being not what she wanted.

I suspect that just as OCD is a complaint which can be promoted by diet and perhaps an immediate environment,  so HD can also be promoted,  amongst those dogs with a predisposition to the complaint,  and whether such risk should be guarded against and so those dogs with a predisposition should be bred from,  or whether breeding stock should only be sourced from those animals which we'll call 'genetically clean',  is another matter.  Sourcing the breeding stock which only have genetically clean antecedents,  will in itself reduce the gene pool to such a small number that that in itself will foster such problems.  Catch 22!!

50 years ago,  I only really remember HD being present in Labs and GSDs,  and amongst those two breeds,  it was virtually endemic.  I certainly don't remember Collies or Spaniels with the complaint,  and no one yet has explained to me how we've ended up in this state,  a state where inflicted animals are operated on with prosthetic and surgical implants affecting a great many and all with the apparent applause of the veterinary profession.  I suspect that there's a certain collision course for the ethical stance and the financially driven aspect of the veterinary profession,  but that's another story!

Back to the start;  Should puppies be reared in an environment which is likely to give them a degree of protection,  or should they,  through a survival-of-the-fittest regime,  be weeded out?  I'm really not sure of the answer,  or even if there is an answer!

Back in 1994 I had a foal with OCD and the AHT Vet who operated told me that OCD had its first recorded case in 1946,  its second in 1964 and that it had doubled,  every year since to the point where the exponential incidence rate,  over the intervening years effectively meant that just about every horse born was at risk.  As with the spread of HD and other probably genetically influenced complaints,  how on earth have we arrived at this dreadful state?

Alec.
		
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I think a lot of the rise in these sort of problems is the breeding for looks rather than function - take GSD's being bred with slopped hips/back ends, this just encourages poor hips! Within collies my girl is an unregistered, farm/working parents bred girl yet she has pretty bad hips - she was never properly scored as I had no intention of breeding her (her conformation is pretty poor aside from her hips and there are far too many unwanted, high drive collie dogs out there as it is)
This is her x-ray at 8 years old, she went onto opiods not long after these were taken (she was out for a lump removal and she'd been getting stiffer so we x-rayed as she was already out) I suspect that the arthritis would be a lot more advanced should we x-ray again but I see no point in risking the anasthetic when we know what's going on and it wouldn't change her management. She'll stay on pain killers / joint supplement for as long as she's comfortable and happy then it will be time to say goodnight - honestly when she started on the opiods I didn't expect to still have her now but they've been very effective in keeping her happy and comfortable.


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## CorvusCorax (27 January 2014)

Without wishing to derail the thread, I don't 'sloping back ends' has anything to do with hip dysplasia, or else why would Labs, Rotts, Collies, Spaniels and other breeds get is as well.
Alec, I think the gene pools are big enough in both the Lab and the GSD to breed from genetically 'clean', well conformed and good working stock. 
If I were to look at litter registrations in my own breed, the people who are breeding from stock with high scores are not the Germanic show fraternity, who often get blamed for the 'slopey back' thing, but those who breed 'old fashioned, big boned, straight backed' - IE oversized and overladen and usually in a selection of 'rare' colours and those breeding from old English lines - if indeed their stock is scored at all, because of course, straight backed dogs do not get hip dysplasia....


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