# Hunting and Equine flu



## Sandstone1 (8 February 2019)

With racing shutting down for several days would it not make sense to stop hunting for a week or so?
Also other activities where horses meet.  Shows and clinics etc.
if everything stops for a short time would it not reduce the chances of this becoming a major epidemic?


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## tristar (8 February 2019)

yes   -    and absolutely


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## Gone hunting (8 February 2019)

I think it's over kill. Fare enough  surrounding yards to the outbreak should be careful where they go and what the do but to stop every equine activity around the country is unnecessary, and everyone panicking about having a flu boaster when the strain hasn't been recognised yet. Knee jerk reaction I think


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## Michen (8 February 2019)

Some of the hunts around us who hunt in racing country (Lambourn in particular) have cancelled. I'll still be heading out unless I hear otherwise.


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## Sprout (8 February 2019)

Local hunt here has cancelled the meet tomorrow.


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## Tiddlypom (8 February 2019)

Yes, absolutely, at least whilst the whole situation re the current efficacy (or lack of) of different makes of vaccines is established.

The Cheshire Hunt, in whose country McCains racing yard is situated, have already, quite rightly, cancelled tomorrow's and Tuesday's meets.


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## Melody Grey (8 February 2019)

Just posted this in another thread, but my vets are running an all day drop in clinic for vaccinations tomorrrow ðŸ¤¦â€â™€ï¸

The mind boggles!


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## Follysmum (8 February 2019)

Atherstone cancelled according to Facebook page


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## Steerpike (8 February 2019)

The local hunt here have cancelled their meet tomorrow.


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## catkin (8 February 2019)

Better to cancel now until everything's a bit clearer than carry on regardless and screw all activities for the whole year because things have got out of hand........


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## popsdosh (8 February 2019)

Im afraid if the local hunt went ahead they wouldnt  come on our farms ever again.  If they were near us or not . Its totally irresponsible in the present situation.


Gone hunting said:



			I think it's over kill. Fare enough  surrounding yards to the outbreak should be careful where they go and what the do but to stop every equine activity around the country is unnecessary, and everyone panicking about having a flu boaster when the strain hasn't been recognised yet. Knee jerk reaction I think
		
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Really ! interesting attitude with regards horses mixing and travelling near other horses. I may agree with regard the boosters though.


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## Elf On A Shelf (8 February 2019)

Would it really do anyone any harm to NOT go hunting or competing for a couple of weeks?!? I know people like doing what they love but a short term hiatus for the long term good is the best thing.

Racing is a multi-million pound industry and yet we have a week of no movements. It will have a massive impact on a lot of sectors of racing but short term loss for long term gain.


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## Michen (8 February 2019)

Unle


popsdosh said:



			Im afraid if the local hunt went ahead they wouldnt  come on our farms ever again.  If they were near us or not . Its totally irresponsible in the present situation.

Really ! interesting attitude with regards horses mixing and travelling near other horses. I may agree with regard the boosters though.
		
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Really? Official advice from BE/BD etc is business as usual... unless these organisations follow the same standpoint re racing you canâ€™t blame life for carrying on. Iâ€™d totally understand is hunt abandoned and local comps etc, but equally understand them following official advice and currently thatâ€™s not to abandon.


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## Tiddlypom (8 February 2019)

popsdosh said:



			Im afraid if the local hunt went ahead they wouldnt come on our farms ever again. If they were near us or not . Its totally irresponsible in the present situation.
		
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Well said.


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## catkin (8 February 2019)

popsdosh said:



			Im afraid if the local hunt went ahead they wouldnt  come on our farms ever again.  If they were near us or not . Its totally irresponsible in the present situation.
		
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Doubt if you are alone with that sentiment.



EKW said:



			Would it really do anyone any harm to NOT go hunting or competing for a couple of weeks?!? I know people like doing what they love but a short term hiatus for the long term good is the best thing.

Racing is a multi-million pound industry and yet we have a week of no movements. It will have a massive impact on a lot of sectors of racing but short term loss for long term gain.
		
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No it wouldn't.


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## tristar (8 February 2019)

if you`ve seen horses with bad flu as in years ago you would not take any risks,  what if a new born foal picks it up or a horse already ill with a compromised immune system.


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## AdorableAlice (8 February 2019)

popsdosh said:



			Im afraid if the local hunt went ahead they wouldnt  come on our farms ever again.  If they were near us or not . Its totally irresponsible in the present .
		
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Well said.

Regardless of where the outbreaks currently are or how 'safe' it may be to continue competitions/training/movement etc, it must be sensible and best practice to close all equine industry down and get a hold of the disease as quickly as possible ?

I feel a non uniform approach will just keep the problem going for a very long time and the whole season being a write off.


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## tankgirl1 (8 February 2019)

Our local riding club are going ahead with their show on Sunday. I wasn't planning to go anyway, but if I was I would cancel rather than risk it. Just not worth it IMO


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## Kat (8 February 2019)

I was planning to go hunting tomorrow. Won't now, especially not after reading the number of people who "Don't believe" in vaccination.


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## AdorableAlice (8 February 2019)

Kat said:



			I was planning to go hunting tomorrow. Won't now, especially not after reading the number of people who "Don't believe" in vaccination.
		
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You would be surprised at how many owners don't vaccinate for flu or tetanus.


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## Nasicus (8 February 2019)

AdorableAlice said:



			You would be surprised at how many owners don't vaccinate for flu or tetanus.
		
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The anti-vaxxers are crawling out the woodwork on the various facebook posts regarding the flu. One has to have a small chuckle at the fact that the only reason they're able to hold their stance so far without serious consequence is due to herd immunity granted by the vaccinated.


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## Louby (8 February 2019)

tankgirl1 said:



			Our local riding club are going ahead with their show on Sunday. I wasn't planning to go anyway, but if I was I would cancel rather than risk it. Just not worth it IMO
		
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Im with you on this but sadly unless others follow suit it will be difficult to contain the virus.  Im not saying I think we should panic or go into lockdown but it would be nice for people to be sensible and considerate to fellow liveries who are happy to miss a few events until its under control.  From what Ive read it seems checking passports at events/clinics etc is pointless as it appears vaccinated horses have caught the new flu virus too.


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## Elf On A Shelf (8 February 2019)

Nasicus said:



			The anti-vaxxers are crawling out the woodwork on the various facebook posts regarding the flu. One has to have a small chuckle at the fact that the only reason they're able to hold their stance so far without serious consequence is due to herd immunity granted by the vaccinated.
		
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The herd immunity thing goes down the pan when 6 horses in a yard of 200 horses, so far, have flu. 100% of those horses are vaccinated.


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## bonny (8 February 2019)

Itâ€™s all very well saying not to go out for a couple of weeks but I canâ€™t see that would achieve anything ? This situation seems to be rapidly getting out of hand, vets and vaccination makers must be delighted but I fail to see anyone else who will benefit by cancelling all equine events, what will be different in two weeks time ? Are you prepared to cancel all horse events for months if this carries on ? For what exactly ?


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## palo1 (9 February 2019)

Considering the incubation period and the time it takes for a horse to get the flu and then to lose infectiousness is relatively short, it makes absolute sense to just put things on hold for a week or 2. That would be the quickest way to stop the disease spreading.  If racing are prepared to shut down, as the biggest equine industry, it doesn't make much sense for everyone else to bleat about 'overkill' in my mind but we all have different perspectives.  If people insist on moving horses and attending competitions etc it is much more likely that the whole thing will continue on and affect everyone's sport, hobby and livelihood for longer.  It really irritates me to be honest and anyone who has seen or been through a nasty outbreak of flu (in vaccinated or unvaccinated horses) would certainly think twice about beetling about the countryside with precious Neddy.  Hey ho.


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

palo1 said:



			Considering the incubation period and the time it takes for a horse to get the flu and then to lose infectiousness is relatively short, it makes absolute sense to just put things on hold for a week or 2. That would be the quickest way to stop the disease spreading.  If racing are prepared to shut down, as the biggest equine industry, it doesn't make much sense for everyone else to bleat about 'overkill' in my mind but we all have different perspectives.  If people insist on moving horses and attending competitions etc it is much more likely that the whole thing will continue on and affect everyone's sport, hobby and livelihood for longer.  It really irritates me to be honest and anyone who has seen or been through a nasty outbreak of flu (in vaccinated or unvaccinated horses) would certainly think twice about beetling about the countryside with precious Neddy.  Hey ho.
		
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How do you think people moving their ponies around, going to shows etc affects the racing industry ?


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## SOS (9 February 2019)

EKW said:



			Would it really do anyone any harm to NOT go hunting or competing for a couple of weeks?!? I know people like doing what they love but a short term hiatus for the long term good is the best thing.

Racing is a multi-million pound industry and yet we have a week of no movements. It will have a massive impact on a lot of sectors of racing but short term loss for long term gain.
		
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Yes it would. Whilst they are not multi million pound industries peopleâ€™s livelihoods depend on horses being able to compete and hunt. If worst case scenario transport is ceased for a few weeks these are some of the â€˜smaller guysâ€™ that could take a hit:

Grooms preparing and doing second horses for hunting may not get that work for these few weeks. I know of someone who if hunting is stopped for a few weeks will be taking their horses off hunting livery and home. This is a huge pay cut to the livery owner.

Dealers who canâ€™t get horses out hunting or competing still have to pay to feed/keep them. Unless the horse is very green itâ€™s not building the experiences it needs to be sold at home. 

Eventing season starts in a little over a month so many people are upping their training. There will no doubt be withdrawals if people donâ€™t feel prepared enough if unable to get out before. This impacts the venue/competition organiser. For professionals this delays getting runs for more high profile events and could even impact their entries I.e Badminton??


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## angrybird1 (9 February 2019)

Surely  it's better to stop now for a couple  of weeks now than to risk  a major outbreak.  That could involve  not running major events.  That would be a lot more expensive and disruptive.


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## be positive (9 February 2019)

There is a confirmed case in my area and the two main venues have responded by cancelling their activities this weekend which is a responsible reaction and one that will mean they lose money, that competitors may miss out on a run but if we all stayed at home for two weeks it may help contain this outbreak so everything gets back to normal far quicker than if it is continued to be spread by mainly unnecessary equine movement.

We need to look at the bigger picture, I am cancelling two short term liveries that were going to bring in a decent sum but it is not worth the risk to the horses already here just for some extra, much needed, income.


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## ihatework (9 February 2019)

Iâ€™d support a short ban on horse movement, country wide.

But it has to come from the top. And presently that advice is not forthcoming.

We have to rely on the experts to guide us appropriately and currently itâ€™s all a bit non-committed.

With the short incubation and duration  of infectious ness we could probably contain this if we all stayed home for 2 weeks and booster vaccinated (is there enough vaccine available????).

But until thatâ€™s the directive I will risk assess each trip on emerging situation

My poor friends are currently preparing a shipment of racehorses to Hong Kong for their sales. Sounds a bloody nightmare.


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## Auslander (9 February 2019)

saddleoversofa said:



			Yes it would. Whilst they are not multi million pound industries peopleâ€™s livelihoods depend on horses being able to compete and hunt. If worst case scenario transport is ceased for a few weeks these are some of the â€˜smaller guysâ€™ that could take a hit:

Grooms preparing and doing second horses for hunting may not get that work for these few weeks. I know of someone who if hunting is stopped for a few weeks will be taking their horses off hunting livery and home. This is a huge pay cut to the livery owner.

Dealers who canâ€™t get horses out hunting or competing still have to pay to feed/keep them. Unless the horse is very green itâ€™s not building the experiences it needs to be sold at home.

Eventing season starts in a little over a month so many people are upping their training. There will no doubt be withdrawals if people donâ€™t feel prepared enough if unable to get out before. This impacts the venue/competition organiser. For professionals this delays getting runs for more high profile events and could even impact their entries I.e Badminton??
		
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A couple of weeks off won't create as a big a hit to peoples livelihoods as a major epidemic of equine flu!


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## Surbie (9 February 2019)

From my novice point of view id support a short ban on horse movement to contain the infection.   There are 3 yards neighbouring ours. We share field boundaries and if one yard gets it I imagine we will all have to lock down. A short term stop makes so much more sense than letting this drag out.


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## TheMule (9 February 2019)

Given there are now confirmed cases in leisure horses who have been nowhere near racehorses either directly or indirectly, I think a 2 week shut down on all non-essential movement is sensible


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

There are horses with flu at all times, my point is that in 2 weeks time we will be in exactly the same scenario, then what ?


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## popsdosh (9 February 2019)

Auslander said:



			A couple of weeks off won't create as a big a hit to peoples livelihoods as a major epidemic of equine flu!
		
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To those who advocate hunting should still take place. It is irresponsible and selfish in the extreme! Im afraid it is that attitude that will finish it all together. I think some are totally oblivious to how it spreads (think reaction to strangles and multiply by ten).

You have a choice if you wish to take your horse hunting ,However you take the choice away from those who would rather their horses were not put in danger. The same as those who go to any event thats fine! However dont bring your horses back near mine.
We have very good relations with the Hunt ,I also know they would not be so stupid as to suggest they came on our land at this time or indeed nearby.


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## ycbm (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			There are horses with flu at all times, my point is that in 2 weeks time we will be in exactly the same scenario, then what ?
		
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This is believed to be a mutated virus that even vaccinated horses will not be immune to. That is very different from the odd unvaccinated horse getting flu in a normal year. 

If a virus can't find new hosts, it dies. If every horse which has been in contact with it stays where it is now until it gets the virus out of its system, the possibility of an epidemic, which is currently uncomfortably high, will be reduced to almost nothing.

I've booked my boosters a month early and my horses won't leave here until it's contained.


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

ycbm said:



			This is believed to be a mutated virus that horses will not be immune to. That is very different from the odd unvaccinated horse getting flu in a normal year.

If a virus can't find new hosts, it dies. If every horse which has been in contact with it stays where it is now until it gets the virus out of its system, the possibility of an epidemic, which is currently uncomfortably high, will be reduced to almost nothing.
		
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Everything Iâ€™ve read has suggested it was an ineffective batch of vaccine that meant vaccinated horses have tested positive. Time will tell but I strongly suspect this is all a massive over reaction, racing could be off for months and all for nothing.


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## popsdosh (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			There are horses with flu at all times, my point is that in 2 weeks time we will be in exactly the same scenario, then what ?
		
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This is a very different situation we are dealing with a strain that only two of the vaccines offer any protection(then not fully) and many vaccinated horses are becoming infected.


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## ycbm (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Everything Iâ€™ve read has suggested it was an ineffective batch of vaccine that meant vaccinated horses have tested positive.
		
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I'm not sure your understanding of how vaccines work is quite right there, Bonny. 





			Time will tell but I strongly suspect this is all a massive over reaction, racing could be off for months and all for nothing.
		
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If it's justified, a movement ban will kill it. It won't go on for months and months if there is a movement  ban immediately. It might if there isn't. 

If it's not justified, then it will have been better to have erred on the side of caution for a few days until we are sure, imo. 


Are you trying to justify to yourself why you are going to take your horse out this weekend, Bonny?  It reads like it.


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 February 2019)

It doesnt



TheMule said:



			Given there are now confirmed cases in leisure horses who have been nowhere near racehorses either directly or indirectly, I think a 2 week shut down on all non-essential movement is sensible
		
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It started in leisure horses not racehorses. Racing is making a stand now it has come into our ranks which is why everyone is now going bat poop crazy.


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## popsdosh (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Everything Iâ€™ve read has suggested it was an ineffective batch of vaccine that meant vaccinated horses have tested positive. Time will tell but I strongly suspect this is all a massive over reaction, racing could be off for months and all for nothing.
		
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I thought you were sensible . Must have been several batches gone wrong then as it is all brands really dont believe the hype as people love conspiracy theories


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

ycbm said:



			I'm not sure your understanding of how vaccines work is quite right there, Bonny.





If it's justified, a movement ban will kill it. It won't go on for months and months if there is a movement  ban immediately. It might if there isn't.

If it's not justified, then it will have been better to have erred on the side of caution for a few days until we are sure, imo.


Are you trying to justify to yourself why you are going to take your horse out this weekend, Bonny?  It reads like it.
		
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No intention of going anywhere but I am a big racing fan and Iâ€™m worried about the effect of all this and worried that Cheltenham wonâ€™t happen


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 February 2019)

saddleoversofa said:



			Yes it would. Whilst they are not multi million pound industries peopleâ€™s livelihoods depend on horses being able to compete and hunt. If worst case scenario transport is ceased for a few weeks these are some of the â€˜smaller guysâ€™ that could take a hit:

Grooms preparing and doing second horses for hunting may not get that work for these few weeks. I know of someone who if hunting is stopped for a few weeks will be taking their horses off hunting livery and home. This is a huge pay cut to the livery owner.

Dealers who canâ€™t get horses out hunting or competing still have to pay to feed/keep them. Unless the horse is very green itâ€™s not building the experiences it needs to be sold at home. 

Eventing season starts in a little over a month so many people are upping their training. There will no doubt be withdrawals if people donâ€™t feel prepared enough if unable to get out before. This impacts the venue/competition organiser. For professionals this delays getting runs for more high profile events and could even impact their entries I.e Badminton??
		
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I would much rather take a 2 week hit than a 6-8 week hit for having ill horses on the yard. Plus the stigma of having it kicking about. Short term loss for long term gain.


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

popsdosh said:



			I thought you were sensible . Must have been several batches gone wrong then as it is all brands really dont believe the hype as people love conspiracy theories
		
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Donald Macains horses


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## popsdosh (9 February 2019)

ycbm said:



			I'm not sure your understanding of how vaccines work is quite right there, Bonny.





If it's justified, a movement ban will kill it. It won't go on for months and months if there is a movement  ban immediately. It might if there isn't.

If it's not justified, then it will have been better to have erred on the side of caution for a few days until we are sure, imo.


Are you trying to justify to yourself why you are going to take your horse out this weekend, Bonny?  It reads like it.
		
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Im gobsmacked anybody would want to take their horse out this weekend unless an emergency.


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## ycbm (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			No intention of going anywhere but I am a big racing fan and Iâ€™m worried about the effect of all this and worried that Cheltenham wonâ€™t happen
		
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I really don't think the racing industry shuts itself down without good reason.


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## popsdosh (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Donald Macains horses
		
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Dont see your point his are not the only TBs I think there are 3more reported in a northern racing yard this AM  Vaccinated TBs in suffolk.
Over half those tested(actual horses) positive so far have been in Vaccinated horses ,with a very wide geographical spread.


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## be positive (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			No intention of going anywhere but I am a big racing fan and Iâ€™m worried about the effect of all this and worried that Cheltenham wonâ€™t happen
		
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I am sure the racing industry is worried that Cheltenham won't happen which is why if we all acted responsibly to try and contain this outbreak from spreading further within the leisure horses/ industry by stopping non essential movement there is a chance that it will be contained and we can all get back to normal.


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## popsdosh (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			No intention of going anywhere but I am a big racing fan and Iâ€™m worried about the effect of all this and worried that Cheltenham wonâ€™t happen
		
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If it doesnt happen because of this we will still be here !  The horses might not be !

The racing industry probably gives the best chance of finding an answer here !


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## Hormonal Filly (9 February 2019)

I am surprised so many venues near us are still going ahead. Lots have cancelled but some are still going. A yard has confirmed cases in somerset thatâ€™s thousands of miles from the first cases, but has it always been on going with a odd case and itâ€™s now suddenly in the media so we know about it? 

Just saw this online, 

https://www.racingpost.com/news/nig...-for-massive-overreaction-to-flu-cases/365656


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

Aimeetess said:



			I am surprised so many venues near us are still going ahead. Lots have cancelled but some are still going. A yard has confirmed cases in somerset thatâ€™s thousands of miles from the first cases, but has it always been on going with a odd case and itâ€™s now suddenly in the media so we know about it?

Just saw this online,

https://www.racingpost.com/news/nig...-for-massive-overreaction-to-flu-cases/365656

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Seems like Iâ€™m not alone !


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## Bernster (9 February 2019)

I canâ€™t work out if itâ€™s overkll or not. All the comms coming from the regulatory and vet bodies that Iâ€™ve seen are saying itâ€™s ok to carry on but get boosters if itâ€™s been less than 6 months. I like that places are going to check passports for vacc history (not done at any unaff that Iâ€™ve been to before).  Iâ€™m not going out this weekend and will re assess for next weekend.


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## Leo Walker (9 February 2019)

There is no competition that is that important that you need to risk your horse and other peoples. Mines being jabbed again next week but vaccinated horses have caught it, so unfortunately vaccinating isnt preventing infection in all cases.


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## catkin (9 February 2019)

popsdosh said:



			To those who advocate hunting should still take place. It is irresponsible and selfish in the extreme! Im afraid it is that attitude that will finish it all together. I think some are totally oblivious to how it spreads (think reaction to strangles and multiply by ten).

You have a choice if you wish to take your horse hunting ,However you take the choice away from those who would rather their horses were not put in danger. The same as those who go to any event thats fine! However dont bring your horses back near mine.
We have very good relations with the Hunt ,I also know they would not be so stupid as to suggest they came on our land at this time or indeed nearby.
		
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Absolutely this.

very well said

my ponies are staying at home - not just for their own sake (and they mean the world to us, so that's a huge thing) but also I could never live with my conscience if I had played a part in bringing a disease to others' vulnerable and well-beloved animals.


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 February 2019)

It's ok we can still hop over to France to race! They are still happy to welcome us lol!


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

catkin said:



			Absolutely this.

very well said

my ponies are staying at home - not just for their own sake (and they mean the world to us, so that's a huge thing) but also I could never live with my concience if I had played a part in bringing a disease to others' vulnerable and well-beloved animals.
		
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If you really felt like that you would literally never go anywhere !


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

EKW said:



			It's ok we can still hop over to France to race! They are still happy to welcome us lol!
		
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Are you sure thatâ€™s true ? We canâ€™t go to Dubai or Ireland, although the French arenâ€™t great believers in rules !


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Are you sure thatâ€™s true ? We canâ€™t go to Dubai or Ireland, although the French arenâ€™t great believers in rules !
		
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https://www.racingpost.com/news/equ...uthorities-move-to-increase-safeguards/365639

They are being sensible about it and you have to provide a vet check for a clean bill of health before you can travel or declare. But they aren't as worried as it is all over the continent already by the sounds of it.


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## catkin (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			If you really felt like that you would literally never go anywhere !
		
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No.
It's no different to not visiting a frail relative when I think I may have human flu. In normal circumstances it would be fine.
This is not normal - a multi-million pound industry like racing does not shut-down during the build-up to its showpiece events without a VERY VERY good reason.


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## catkin (9 February 2019)

EKW said:



https://www.racingpost.com/news/equ...uthorities-move-to-increase-safeguards/365639

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note the statement about not just racehorses, but also equestrian sporthorses.


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## JulesRules (9 February 2019)

I'm still going out for my lesson this weekend. We don't come into close contract with other horses at my instructors yard and she is taking special precautions for visiting horses.

I'm due to compete next weekend and will play it by ear over the next week. 

I spoke to my vet on the phone yesterday (the call was about ulcer treatment but I took the opportunity to seek guidance.)
My vet advised me to carry on as normal, but to take special care with bio security - not sharing water, no nose to nose contact etc. She also advised keeping on the lorry rather than tying to the outside etc. She herself is competing this weekend and will carry on as normal. 

I do think that some activities such as hunting are a far higher risk though, and I guess you could argue endurance rides and even to a certain extent hacking. Rather than being contained and controlled at a competition venue, horses are put and about in the countryside with the risk of coming into contact with unknown equine who are not within the control of the event organiser. 

As others have said I will be risk assessing my movements and actions over the next few weeks and acting sensibly.


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## tristar (9 February 2019)

also consider  vet and farrier, chiro, new age flopdoodle people going from horse to horse without changing their clothes or practicing hand washing, equipment disinfection, sales of used tack and visits to feed shops.

i have lived through a major uncontrolled flu epidemic  and see no reason why any animal should go through that, never want to see it again


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## tristar (9 February 2019)

what sort of VET says `don`t touch`noses`   don`t they know its spread on the air, one sneeze or cough is enough, for god sake!

not touching noses is for strangles bacteria  which is contagious not equine flu virus which can be airborn


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## Hormonal Filly (9 February 2019)

Just red nearly every single yard in my area is on lock down, some are even being stabled, as if thatâ€™s gunna make any difference. 

Really? We are absolute miles away from any case!


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## palo1 (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			How do you think people moving their ponies around, going to shows etc affects the racing industry ?
		
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I don't think I said it would affect the racing industry.  I meant that if racing can shut down for a week, so could everyone else and if that happened the outbreak would be contained and probably ended.  It is simply not possible to guarantee that any one horse in a gathering, whether race horse or pc pony has not, somehow been exposed to the virus and is able to spread it.  That is how viruses work and spread - the way transmission works is that it can't easily be predicted but the best chance of stopping transmission is isolation - simple.   Flu isn't generally deadly but is a potentially significant illness for any horse - especially if there are subsequent respiratory problems as well as expensive and inconvenient.  It isn't particularly easy to quantify the risk in this instance and it is basically naive to think that vaccination will prevent infection or spread.  

As flu exists all the time in the horse population there is always a risk of catching it and spreading but that doesn't stop racing or any other activity at a significant level usually but this particular outbreak is different.  It may not be severely affecting those horses who currently have it and they are very likely to fully recover quickly but that is not true of all horses: flu can cause mares to abort and can be very serious for old or compromised horses: of which there are many in the general population.  I don't quite understand why people think it is somehow 'hysterical' or 'overkill' to want to stop the spread of something nasty, expensive and inconvenient at the very least.  At this time of year, studs are getting busier, mares are getting nearer to foaling and most people are looking forward to spending more time in the saddle with longer days and improved weather.  Losing a week or 2 at most in early-mid February seems a small price to pay for a better Spring and Summer to me.  If I was planning a summer competing/expecting a much planned for foal/had nursed a much loved oldie through winter I would be incredibly frustrated at the thought that the outbreak may be allowed to spread over several weeks or months because people want to get on with 'business as usual' for a week or two.  If businesses have no way to cope with this sort of event/interruption then they are probably unsustainable/vulnerable in any case I am afraid.  Just my view of course and my equine friends and acquaintances come from a huge range of settings: from professional trainers, racing staff and higher level dressage to the happiest of happy hackers and breeders.  Most of them are uncomfortable with the idea of continuing to get out and about as normal.


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## Shooting Star (9 February 2019)

Aimeetess said:



			Just red nearly every single yard in my area is on lock down, some are even being stabled, as if thatâ€™s gunna make any difference.

Really? We are absolute miles away from any case!
		
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sensible yards are implementing measures yes.

The nearest known case may be miles away but what about the unknown cases from those that donâ€™t bother to call the vet and just wait  to let it run itâ€™s course whilst unwhitingly infecting horses on neighbouring land?

What about new horses that people have just purchased from outside your immediate area and are bringing to your local yards? 

What about the people on your yard who have their ridden horse with you but a retiree that they keep & visit 3 counties away or their friends horse that they popped in to see whilst visiting relatives?

itâ€™s really very easy to spread the flu!


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## ycbm (9 February 2019)

NHS advice is that flu virus lives for up to six hours on a doorknob. There are a zillion ways that a horse 'nowhere near an outbreak' could become infected.


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

Shooting Star said:



			sensible yards are implementing measures yes.

The nearest known case may be miles away but what about the unknown cases from those that donâ€™t bother to call the vet and just wait  to let it run itâ€™s course whilst unwhitingly infecting horses on neighbouring land?

What about new horses that people have just purchased from outside your immediate area and are bringing to your local yards?

What about the people on your yard who have their ridden horse with you but a retiree that they keep & visit 3 counties away or their friends horse that they popped in to see whilst visiting relatives?

itâ€™s really very easy to spread the flu!
		
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Itâ€™s really not the plague, itâ€™s a virus that exists in the horse world and always will, the same as the human population. Strangely if you hear someone in your street had the flu, life doesnâ€™t stop ! We even manage to stage competions  for human athletes, I really donâ€™t see the need for all this hysteria.


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## catkin (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Itâ€™s really not the plague, itâ€™s a virus that exists in the horse world and always will, the same as the human population. Strangely if you hear someone in your street had the flu, life doesnâ€™t stop ! We even manage to stage competions  for human athletes, I really donâ€™t see the need for all this hysteria.
		
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Err, actually if someone in your street was diagnosed with Swine Flu they would be on lockdown. Don't you remember what happened a few short years ago?
this is Flu, not a cold virus.


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## Goldenstar (9 February 2019)

I spoke to my vet yesterday
They have seen or heard of no cases in our area .
Racing is taking the right action nothing will spread flu faster than horses from all over the country in large numbers collecting in one place and then being physically stressed then going back home ,virus heaven .
Atm all the show centres round here are open and they are hunting I pretty sure itâ€™s no visitors though .
Ten days should see .
Itâ€™s important to remember flu is always with us many of those not quite right horses will be vaccinated horses who have been in contact with the virus .
Letâ€™s hope it settles for the foal season .


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

catkin said:



			Err, actually if someone in your street was diagnosed with Swine Flu they would be on lockdown. Don't you remember what happened a few short years ago?
this is Flu, not a cold virus.
		
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Iâ€™m aware itâ€™s flu, there is no suggestion anywhere that affected horses are any iller than normal, one of the affected horses was racing a few days ago and obviously showing no clinical signs.  Funnily enough even when we had swine flu in the human population Life managed to carry on


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## Goldenstar (9 February 2019)

catkin said:



			Err, actually if someone in your street was diagnosed with Swine Flu they would be on lockdown. Don't you remember what happened a few short years ago?
this is Flu, not a cold virus.
		
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Equine flu is not swine flu it does not jump species and it will rarely kill the horse (apart from foals )although just like human flu itâ€™s deeply unpleasant and the horses will take a fair bit of nursing and the horse will take a while to get over it some a long while .


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## Tiddlypom (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Iâ€™m aware itâ€™s flu, there is no suggestion anywhere that affected horses are any iller than normal, one of the affected horses was racing a few days ago and obviously showing no clinical signs.  Funnily enough even when we had swine flu in the human population Life managed to carry on
		
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The old, the young and the immunologically naÃ¯ve horses will always fare worse. Are you ready to see widespread deaths in new born foals because you're so fixated on your own desire to see Cheltenham to go ahead?


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			Equine flu is not swine flu it does not jump species and it will rarely kill the horse (apart from foals )although just like human flu itâ€™s deeply unpleasant and the horses will take a fair bit of nursing and the horse will take a while to get over it some a long while .
		
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The six cases that have tested positive in racing so far are in horses that either had no symptoms or whose performance was affected in a race, they certainly werenâ€™t very ll and requiring lots of nursing. Vaccinated horses that get the virus tend not be ill as such.


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			The old, the young and the immunologically naÃ¯ve horses will always fare worse. Are you ready to see widespread deaths in new born foals because you're so fixated on your own desire to see Cheltenham to go ahead?
		
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Seriously, this is becoming ridiculous


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## Tiddlypom (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Seriously, this is becoming ridiculous
		
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Oh no it isn't. I am 2.5 miles from McCains, and have two Cushing's horses. They HAVE been vaccinated recently with Prequenza boosters, but no one is really sure yet how much protection that will afford them.

Twemlows and Harthill studs are also close by.


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Oh no it isn't. I am 2.5 miles from McCains, and have two Cushing's horses.
Twemlows and Harthill studs are also close by.
		
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You are probably a lot closer to hundreds of unvaccinated horses, a proportion of which will get a virus every year, the same as with people.


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## Tiddlypom (9 February 2019)

GS, it's disappointing that hunting is still taking place in your area. Of all the sports, hunting is the one with the potential to spread flu over a wider area. A two week halt whilst the situation is evaluated would have been much more sensible.


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## palo1 (9 February 2019)

Taken from Dynamo's thread in Competing and Training forum:-

''info for those questioning why we react more strongly to an equine outbreak than to a human outbreak:

Flu is much more serious than having a cold. Genuine flu in humans causes deaths, as it does in horses. If there was an outbreak of swine flu, or bird flu, or some other serious type of flu in a school close to your children's school, and if the schools had been competing at joint sports events, you might well think about keeping your children off school as a precaution. It's not an over-reaction.

One of the horses that was first diagnosed has been PTS in the last 24 hours because of the severity of symptoms and non-response to treatment. If you extrapolate from that, one horse in however many are positively diagnosed so far... fewer than 20?... that potentially amounts to a high percentage of deaths, higher than in a human flu outbreak. 

And it's easier to contain than a human flu outbreak, so why would we not contain it if we can? 

One person's over-reaction is another person's sensible precaution.
Read more at https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...iling-plans.772566/page-3#URUQhhoXAUTI7QLX.99''

I hadn't heard that one of the horses had been pts.  If so, that is really sad but hopefully incidents will be contained.


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## Tiddlypom (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			You are probably a lot closer to hundreds of unvaccinated horses, a proportion of which will get a virus every year, the same as with people.
		
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Yes indeed, but most of those viruses will be mild and not likely to kill 67% of my horses.


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## Goldenstar (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			You are probably a lot closer to hundreds of unvaccinated horses, a proportion of which will get a virus every year, the same as with people.
		
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This is true .
But tiddlypom is right to be worried because of where she lives .
Three horses are infected on one yard they are horses who will have a good vaccination history 
And if I where her I would be staying home getting any horse who had a vaccination longer than six months ago jabbed again .
As a further precaution I would have a set of yard top clothes including a hat and boots that donâ€™t leave the premises ( easy for me I have a lot of clothing not fir to be seen in public ).
If TP has a paddocks close to roads I would use the ones most distant from the road .
I would then hope for the best .
That not I would do living 200 miles away 
If the virus runs amok through DMcC â€˜s yard then we all probaly in a spot of bother because then the virus has clearly broken through the vaccine in a big way .


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## palo1 (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			The six cases that have tested positive in racing so far are in horses that either had no symptoms or whose performance was affected in a race, they certainly werenâ€™t very ll and requiring lots of nursing. Vaccinated horses that get the virus tend not be ill as such.
		
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As of last night there were 10 confirmed cases with several others as yet unconfirmed. It IS a tiny number but the fact that vaccinated horses are getting it is actually quite significant.  Each to their own interpretation though...


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## poiuytrewq (9 February 2019)

I for one was very relieved that the local hunt here cancelled tomorrow.


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## ester (9 February 2019)

There still seems to be a lot of point missing. My head is getting a bit sore, people are still telling me it is no different to strangles while being very convinced that they are correct.

The likelihood of two vaccine brands providing 'faulty' batches of vaccines really is the least likely scenario. The worst case scenario is that you have a virus that is sufficiently different from the included strain that none of the UK herd is protected. That really is a big deal. It might not be the case but I really don't see the issue with being cautious initially given the risk/benefit.
We have no idea of the likely scale of the issue because horses well may have been affected without anyone realising what it was, now people will be testing so we will only get an idea over the amount of spread we already have over the next week or so.

It has been reported that one of the horses has been PTS as a result of symptoms (I don't have a link for that though unfortunately).

I spent Thursday telling my south west friends not to worry too much initially, obviously that scenario very rapidly changed.


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## Goldenstar (9 February 2019)

Flu is much more serious than strangles itâ€™s much more infectious and causes dangerously high temperatures 
Itâ€™s very sad if a horse has been PTS  sadly getting flu just after running a race is not good .
And your right if the vaccination is not  even reducing the severity of symptoms itâ€™s very serious .
If there significant spread into horses from the meeting these horses went to itâ€™s probaly time stay home wherever you are .
I have to say itâ€™s times like this I am  are very relieved by horses are at home .


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## Meredith (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Itâ€™s really not the plague, itâ€™s a virus that exists in the horse world and always will, the same as the human population. Strangely if you hear someone in your street had the flu, life doesnâ€™t stop ! We even manage to stage competions  for human athletes, I really donâ€™t see the need for all this hysteria.
		
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 No life doesnâ€™t stop for the rest of the world but precautions should be taken.

There will always be a few who are ill but sensible care limits the spread. No one will hear about the few but if precautions are not taken that quickly can become the many.

 I have had the misfortune to have had â€œproperâ€ Human Influenza, in the 1980â€™s. It is horrible. It left me weak for 3 months and has affected me ever since. I took care to keep as isolated as possible during that time.


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## Goldenstar (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Seriously, this is becoming ridiculous
		
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Tiddlypom said:



			GS, it's disappointing that hunting is still taking place in your area. Of all the sports, hunting is the one with the potential to spread flu over a wider area. A two week halt whilst the situation is evaluated would have been much more sensible.
		
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No I donâ€™t agree racing and affiliated competitions where horses travel long distances from all over and then stable are most likely to cause spread .


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## Goldenstar (9 February 2019)

Is that ten on DMcCâ€™s yard if so itâ€™s not looking good .


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## Meredith (9 February 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			No I donâ€™t agree racing and affiliated competitions where horses travel long distances from all over and then stable are most likely to cause spread .
		
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 Any travelling could cause spread surely.
Our local hunt has visitors every week from 40 or more miles away.
I donâ€™t know if they met today but I hope they didnâ€™t.


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## Tiddlypom (9 February 2019)

It was still 6 at McCains last time I heard, inc a runner at Ayr on Weds.

Hunting can spread flu rapidly within the local area. The virus is spread through the air, not by direct contact. Think how many horses that the field may pass by within 100m during a day, it would only take one +ve hunting horse to potentially infect scores of others in one day.


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

Seriously there are a lot of people on here who are getting very carried away, we are talking about a virus that is everywhere, large stables of horses will have a virus in some form in some horses every year. It is important in the racing world because it affects performance, not because horses are going to die. A reality check is needed.


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 February 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			No I donâ€™t agree racing and affiliated competitions where horses travel long distances from all over and then stable are most likely to cause spread .
		
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And this is why racing has stopped. We could potentially spread the infection hundreds upon hundreds of miles every day. Most people wont travel more than 2 hours to a normal competition or hunt thus reducing the area covered. Racehorses travel up to 400miles a day, often stay overnight then go home again if the drive is more than 4-5 hours.


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## Clodagh (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Seriously there are a lot of people on here who are getting very carried away, we are talking about a virus that is everywhere, large stables of horses will have a virus in some form in some horses every year. It is important in the racing world because it affects performance, not because horses are going to die. A reality check is needed.
		
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Bonny, but do you not think that you being worried about Cheltenham is perhaps a lesser worry than the millions of pounds the racing and breeding industries will take if this mutated virus gos through the Newmarket studs and training yards? I can't believe people are being so short sighted that the fact they are bored on a Saturday afternoon is more important.


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## cundlegreen (9 February 2019)

palo1 said:



			Considering the incubation period and the time it takes for a horse to get the flu and then to lose infectiousness is relatively short, it makes absolute sense to just put things on hold for a week or 2. That would be the quickest way to stop the disease spreading.  If racing are prepared to shut down, as the biggest equine industry, it doesn't make much sense for everyone else to bleat about 'overkill' in my mind but we all have different perspectives.  If people insist on moving horses and attending competitions etc it is much more likely that the whole thing will continue on and affect everyone's sport, hobby and livelihood for longer.  It really irritates me to be honest and anyone who has seen or been through a nasty outbreak of flu (in vaccinated or unvaccinated horses) would certainly think twice about beetling about the countryside with precious Neddy.  Hey ho.
		
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But the thing is, at Newmarket even lockdown yards are still allowed to exercise on the heath, albeit after the majority have returned to their yards. Considering that this is an airborne disease, it makes a nonsense of the whole concept of stopping all racing and racehorse movement.


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

Clodagh said:



			Bonny, but do you not think that you being worried about Cheltenham is perhaps a lesser worry than the millions of pounds the racing and breeding industries will take if this mutated virus gos through the Newmarket studs and training yards? I can't believe people are being so short sighted that the fact they are bored on a Saturday afternoon is more important.
		
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Nobody said that ! Iâ€™m saying I think itâ€™s all a huge overreaction, more and more trainers are now saying the same thing, I donâ€™t see how it involves people with leisure horses in any way. Racing is in trouble for lots of reasons at the moment, the affects of this if it carries on would be disasterous and for what ?


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## tristar (9 February 2019)

the whole point is too stop while it is a few horses!  what do want to do wait until there are thousands of cases? i don`t, i want it isolated NOW.        the beauty of social media is coming into its own, moment be moment we can track the evolution.


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## Goldenstar (9 February 2019)

Just seen on FB (not sure if itâ€™s right )that the BHA are letting some Point to points to go ahead tomorrow .


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## Hormonal Filly (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Seriously there are a lot of people on here who are getting very carried away, we are talking about a virus that is everywhere, large stables of horses will have a virus in some form in some horses every year. It is important in the racing world because it affects performance, not because horses are going to die. A reality check is needed.
		
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My vet pretty much just said this to us. Heâ€™s the director of a big chain. He said itâ€™s all gone a bit over the top quickly, itâ€™s about more often than you think and usually it isnâ€™t a huge deal. But.. they are worried if itâ€™s unstoppable and a new strain. itâ€™s not as bad with leisure horses, theyâ€™re unwell but usually better quickly but race horses etc will have performance effected, be out of work for 4-8 weeks recovering and thatâ€™s a lot of money being lost basically so it could ruin that side of things.

Donâ€™t shoot the messenger. We had ours jabbed early, he said itâ€™s the most recent version sensitive to this strain (they believe) but if it isnâ€™t, nothing will stop it vaccinated or not, pretty much. Itâ€™s still early stages.


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## blitznbobs (9 February 2019)

We are talking about flu - not the Black Death or even foot and mouth...


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 February 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			Just seen on FB (not sure if itâ€™s right )that the BHA are letting some Point to points to go ahead tomorrow .
		
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There will be no racing at all - including point to point in this country until thursday at the very earliest. The decision will be made on Monday. There is pointing and racing on in Ireland this weekend.


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## poiuytrewq (9 February 2019)

Would be a bit silly to allow P2P to go ahead? Especially considering so many pointers are trained alongside racehorses. We need to stop everything. I think the BHA have been absolutely amazing! Outstanding reactions at such speed will hopefully contain this well.


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## Pearlsasinger (9 February 2019)

Aimeetess said:



			My vet pretty much just said this to us. Heâ€™s the director of a big chain. He said itâ€™s all gone a bit over the top quickly, itâ€™s about more often than you think and usually it isnâ€™t a huge deal. But.. they are worried if itâ€™s unstoppable and a new strain. itâ€™s not as bad with leisure horses, theyâ€™re unwell but usually better quickly but race horses etc will have performance effected, be out of work for 4-8 weeks recovering and thatâ€™s a lot of money being lost basically so it could ruin that side of things.

Donâ€™t shoot the messenger. We had ours jabbed early, he said itâ€™s the most recent version sensitive to this strain (they believe) but if it isnâ€™t, nothing will stop it vaccinated or not, pretty much. Itâ€™s still early stages.
		
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Isn't that the problem though?  Affected racehorses will have a robust vaccination history and yet have still got the virus *because the vaccine is ineffective* for this particular virus.  There will be NO horses in the country which have been effectively vaccinated against this strain because no-one knew that they needed to be, or because there is no vaccine against this strain.  A booster jab will not be much good if it is simply a 2nd injection of the same vaccine.  The only way to stop the rapid spread of this airborne virus is to keep horses on their own yards with good bio-security imho.  I am surprised that some hunts and comp venues haven't cancelled at least this weekend.


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## Amymay (9 February 2019)

blitznbobs said:



			We are talking about flu - not the Black Death or even foot and mouth...
		
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But, flu kills too......


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## Auslander (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Seriously there are a lot of people on here who are getting very carried away, we are talking about a virus that is everywhere, large stables of horses will have a virus in some form in some horses every year. It is important in the racing world because it affects performance, not because horses are going to die. A reality check is needed.
		
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Out of interest, why do you think that the Animal Health Trust, The British Equine Veterinary Association, and multiple veterinary practices/hospitals don't agree with you, and are making it very clear that there is potentially a significant problem that needs to be nipped in the bud.


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## faerie666 (9 February 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			Flu is much more serious than strangles itâ€™s much more infectious and causes dangerously high temperatures
Itâ€™s very sad if a horse has been PTS  sadly getting flu just after running a race is not good .
And your right if the vaccination is not  even reducing the severity of symptoms itâ€™s very serious .
If there significant spread into horses from the meeting these horses went to itâ€™s probaly time stay home wherever you are .
I have to say itâ€™s times like this I am  are very relieved by horses are at home .
		
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I don't know where it's been reported that a horse has died, and I'm not sure it's true, but if it is, it definitely ISN'T one of the McCain horses!


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## catkin (9 February 2019)

poiuytrewq said:



			Would be a bit silly to allow P2P to go ahead? Especially considering so many pointers are trained alongside racehorses. We need to stop everything. I think the BHA have been absolutely amazing! Outstanding reactions at such speed will hopefully contain this well.
		
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and on the non-racing side - well done BHS getting out an e-mail on Friday afternoon to (what I presume) are all on their mailing list with information on what to look out for and how to deal with aspects of bio-security. The suggestions are helpful.


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 February 2019)

The BHA have just said of over 700 test results back in already ONLY the original 6 from McCains yard have tested positive. This includes a couple of tests from Rebecca Menzies who had a couple of ill horses and fully expected the results to be flu. Thankfully it isn't it's just another bug that has been floating about.


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## faerie666 (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			The six cases that have tested positive in racing so far are in horses that either had no symptoms or whose performance was affected in a race, they certainly werenâ€™t very ll and requiring lots of nursing. Vaccinated horses that get the virus tend not be ill as such.
		
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The first three that were positive were showing signs of being unwell, that's why they were tested in the first place, so vaccinated horses can still get ill, it's just usually not as severe, and they get over it quicker.


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## Tiddlypom (9 February 2019)

faerie666 said:



			I don't know where it's been reported that a horse has died, and I'm not sure it's true, but if it is, it definitely ISN'T one of the McCain horses!
		
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 Posted 6 hours ago on the South Coast Equine vets FB page (so it's not a McCain horse) :-

*** INFLUENZA UPDATE ***

Devastatingly, one of the UNVACCINATED horses identified with Influenza at the beginning of this week, has been euthanised due to severity of symptoms, despite intensive care.

This highlights the potential of this new strain to cause horrific consequences, and the absolute importance of VACCINATION. It may not completely prevent all symptoms, but all THREE flu vaccinations are resulting in much milder symptoms and quicker recoveries.

We have found that the level of immunity to â€˜flu is decreasing too much to offer sufficient protection after 6 months, hence the recommendation for boosters.

Many thanks to the brilliant team at the Animal Health Trust, for the constant updates, and who are about to work through the weekend testing thousands of swabs and bloods.

Finally, remember that this virus is AIRBORNE.


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## faerie666 (9 February 2019)

EKW said:



			It's ok we can still hop over to France to race! They are still happy to welcome us lol!
		
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Be a bit daft though, considering they were reporting cases over there weeks ago. The last thing I'd want to do as a trainer is run in France and bring it back from there...


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## faerie666 (9 February 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Postd 6 hours ago on the South Coast Equine vets FB page:-

*** INFLUENZA UPDATE ***

Devastatingly, one of the UNVACCINATED horses identified with Influenza at the beginning of this week, has been euthanised due to severity of symptoms, despite intensive care.

This highlights the potential of this new strain to cause horrific consequences, and the absolute importance of VACCINATION. It may not completely prevent all symptoms, but all THREE flu vaccinations are resulting in much milder symptoms and quicker recoveries.

We have found that the level of immunity to â€˜flu is decreasing too much to offer sufficient protection after 6 months, hence the recommendation for boosters.

Many thanks to the brilliant team at the Animal Health Trust, for the constant updates, and who are about to work through the weekend testing thousands of swabs and bloods.

Finally, remember that this virus is AIRBORNE.
		
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Thank you for posting this Tiddlypom, that's very sad news.
The post I quoted did make it sound as if it might have been one of the race horses, and that's a rumour no one needs right now.


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## ester (9 February 2019)

Aimeetess said:



			My vet pretty much just said this to us. Heâ€™s the director of a big chain. He said itâ€™s all gone a bit over the top quickly, itâ€™s about more often than you think and usually it isnâ€™t a huge deal. *But.. they are worried if itâ€™s unstoppable and a new strain.* itâ€™s not as bad with leisure horses, theyâ€™re unwell but usually better quickly but race horses etc will have performance effected, be out of work for 4-8 weeks recovering and thatâ€™s a lot of money being lost basically so it could ruin that side of things.

Donâ€™t shoot the messenger. We had ours jabbed early, he said itâ€™s the most recent version sensitive to this strain (they believe) but if it isnâ€™t, nothing will stop it vaccinated or not, pretty much. Itâ€™s still early stages.
		
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This bit here is the big issue, this bit is why people are concerned. Because the worst case scenario right now is that no horse in the UK is fully protected against the currently circulating virus. That's a pretty big deal .

I'm quite happy about using my level of knowledge to make judgements from, the things I have seen from many others, including some vets have me pretty concerned.


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## Follysmum (9 February 2019)

Fernie apparently out today !


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

popsdosh said:



			I thought you were sensible . Must have been several batches gone wrong then as it is all brands really dont believe the hype as people love conspiracy theories
		
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This is now looking a possible scenario, all this fuss and it could just be a problem at Donald McCainâ€™s yard ! 720 swabs have been tested so far, 6 horses have been positive, all from one yard so it could be the horses werenâ€™t vaccinated or the vaccine was faulty ?


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			This is now looking a possible scenario, all this fuss and it could just be a problem at Donald McCainâ€™s yard ! 720 swabs have been tested so far, 6 horses have been positive, all from one yard so it could be the horses werenâ€™t vaccinated or the vaccine was faulty ?
		
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Every single horse on a racing yard  - even down to the 36yo deaf, dumb, blind and half dead companion pony HAVE to be fully vaccinated to be there. I also highly doubt its a batch of faulty vaccines. Viruses mutate, they evolve. Different strains of the same overall virus live in different parts of the world but they do come together from time to time and intermingle. You vaccinate for what is local to your area hence why Britain very rarely vaccinates for Equine Herpes and yet France have it as a regular vaccine like their flu jag. Herpes is quite prevelent in France.

Trust me no one wants racing to be on more than me because The Reprobate is absolutely bouncing out of his skin right now desperate for a run! He is in at Kelso on Thursday but he will be the first balloted out as he is 1lb above the handicap.


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

EKW said:



			Every single horse on a racing yard  - even down to the 36yo deaf, dumb, blind and half dead companion pony HAVE to be fully vaccinated to be there. I also highly doubt its a batch of faulty vaccines. Viruses mutate, they evolve. Different strains of the same overall virus live in different parts of the world but they do come together from time to time and intermingle. You vaccinate for what is local to your area hence why Britain very rarely vaccinates for Equine Herpes and yet France have it as a regular vaccine like their flu jag. Herpes is quite prevelent in France.

Trust me no one wants racing to be on more than me because The Reprobate is absolutely bouncing out of his skin right now desperate for a run! He is in at Kelso on Thursday but he will be the first balloted out as he is 1lb above the handicap.
		
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Actually horses have to have a stamp in their passport to say they have been vaccinated, something odd is going on in that yard


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Actually horses have to have a stamp in their passport to say they have been vaccinated, something odd is going on in that yard
		
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ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ 

You can keep your conspiracy theories in cloud cuckoo land where they belong ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ McCain's aren't the only vaccinated horses to have tested positive ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ he just happens to be the unlucky bugger in racing that has so far ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ what would benefit him and his vet from illeagaly stamping passports but not issuing the vaccine?!?? ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ the owners pay for it so its not like it is coming out of his own pocket ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Shooting Star (9 February 2019)

Bonny as of yesterday there were ten outbreaks not one, 27 confirmed affected horses and some others showing symptoms at the same locations

https://www.aht.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Equiflunet-outbreaks-2019-v4.pdf


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

Shooting Star said:



			Bonny as of yesterday there were ten outbreaks not one, 27 confirmed affected horses and some others showing symptoms at the same locations

https://www.aht.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Equiflunet-outbreaks-2019-v4.pdf

Click to expand...

Iâ€™m going from the latest update from the BHA who have said they have 6 confirmed cases all from the same yard. They have tested 720 swabs


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

EKW said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

You can keep your conspiracy theories in cloud cuckoo land where they belong ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ McCain's aren't the only vaccinated horses to have tested positive ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ he just happens to be the unlucky bugger in racing that has so far ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ what would benefit him and his vet from illeagaly stamping passports but not issuing the vaccine?!?? ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ the owners pay for it so its not like it is coming out of his own pocket ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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Whatâ€™s with all the silly faces, you maybe need to do a bit more research and open your mind a bit.


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Iâ€™m going from the latest update from the BHA who have said they have 6 confirmed cases all from the same yard. They have tested 720 swabs
		
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All the swobs are going through AHT not the BHA! So it would make far more sense to follow the AHT list!


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## ester (9 February 2019)

Bonny is only counting racehorses because all the other evidence in vaccinated leisure horses can be discounted apparently ðŸ™„.


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

EKW said:



			All the swobs are going through AHT not the BHA! So it would make far more sense to follow the AHT list!
		
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The BHA can only go on affected racehorses, if only one yard is affected then that is presumably good news for everyone else in racing


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 February 2019)

ester said:



			Bonny is only counting racehorses because all the other evidence in vaccinated leisure horses can be discounted apparently ðŸ™„.
		
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Thats the thing if they actually bothered to read the AHT's latest statement posted above they would see that there is a traceable link across the majority of Europe through competition horses of various natures passing flu around like its a hot potato!


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

EKW said:



			Thats the thing if they actually bothered to read the AHT's latest statement posted above they would see that there is a traceable link across the majority of Europe through competition horses of various natures passing flu around like its a hot potato!
		
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I have read it, does anyone know how it compares with previous years though ?


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## faerie666 (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			This is now looking a possible scenario, all this fuss and it could just be a problem at Donald McCainâ€™s yard ! 720 swabs have been tested so far, 6 horses have been positive, all from one yard so it could be the horses werenâ€™t vaccinated or the vaccine was faulty ?
		
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The thing is, McCain's horses must have contracted the virus from somewhere, maybe one of them picked it up at the races or a new arrival from the sales or a different yard brought the virus but didn't show any symptoms during their isolation period. At the end of the day, the symptoms are pretty much identical to other more minor respiratory infections, especially in vaccinated horses. At least McCain's have done the responsible thing and had their horses tested and reported the disease. There's plenty of people out there who won't even bother to call the vet because they think ' Oh well, he's a bit snotty, it's nothing major, a couple of weeks off and he'll be over it.'


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## ester (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			I have read it, does anyone know how it compares with previous years though ?
		
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I canâ€™t work out if you are being intentionally dim or not, maybe go do some more reading? Especially if you are going to tell everyone else they are over reacting and what they should and shouldnâ€™t be doing.


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

ester said:



			I canâ€™t work out if you are being intentionally dim or not, maybe go do some more reading? Especially if you are going to tell everyone else they are over reacting and what they should and shouldnâ€™t be doing.
		
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Ok, Iâ€™m dim, I have no idea how many horses have flu at any given time ? How many people call a vet ? How many vets test ? How does now compare to any other time ?


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## SEL (9 February 2019)

faerie666 said:



			There's plenty of people out there who won't even bother to call the vet because they think ' Oh well, he's a bit snotty, it's nothing major, a couple of weeks off and he'll be over it.'
		
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Absolutely - me! The Appy was a bit snotty and coughing a few weeks ago. No obvious temperature and I called the vet a week in because I was concerned the cough wasn't clearing up. Usual protocol of ventapulmin and a week long course of antibiotics in case there was a bit of a chest infection (wheezing with stethoscope). Obviously we weren't on flu watch at the time, but the vet did check with me on Thursday that it had definitely 100% cleared up. I suspect if she presented like that today we'd be taking snot samples.


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## Shooting Star (9 February 2019)

there were 3 outbreaks in the whole of 2018 yet 10 so far in the first 6 weeks of 2019 - this is why people are concerned.

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/owners-warned-look-equine-flu-signs-following-outbreaks-675932


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## ester (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Ok, Iâ€™m dim, I have no idea how many horses have flu at any given time ? How many people call a vet ? How many vets test ? How does now compare to any other time ?
		
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You need to be asking the questions for THIS flu. Not any that have circulated in previous years.

SEL and thatâ€™s exactly why no one can accurately determine the spread of this flu right now, as it wouldnâ€™t be the first suspect on the list in a vaccinated horse.


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## SEL (9 February 2019)

ester said:



			You need to be asking the questions for THIS flu. Not any that have circulated in previous years.

SEL and thatâ€™s exactly why no one can accurately determine the spread of this flu right now, as it wouldnâ€™t be the first suspect on the list in a vaccinated horse.
		
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And she would be one to get it - not known as Sick Note for nothing.....

Eye opening how many people don't vaccinate. Can't imagine why you wouldn't want to protect your horse against tetanus. Lots of weird science appearing in FB ðŸ˜•


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## faerie666 (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Whatâ€™s with all the silly faces, you maybe need to do a bit more research and open your mind a bit.
		
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Are you seriously suggesting someone whose livelihood depends on the horses in his care being in peak health to perform on the racetrack would risk skipping vaccinations against a disease that's endemic in the UK horse population, and that his vets would sign passports for horses that haven't been innoculated? That's a VERY libellous statement to make, against both Donald McCain and his staff, and his vets...


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## Rowreach (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Seriously there are a lot of people on here who are getting very carried away, we are talking about a virus that is everywhere, large stables of horses will have a virus in some form in some horses every year. It is important in the racing world because it affects performance, not because horses are going to die. A reality check is needed.
		
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I've read all of your comments with a  face on.

Going by your comment above, can you tell me why you think then that the racing industry doesn't go into shutdown every year?

Why do you think they have got "carried away" this time?


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## faerie666 (9 February 2019)

SEL said:



			Absolutely - me! The Appy was a bit snotty and coughing a few weeks ago. No obvious temperature and I called the vet a week in because I was concerned the cough wasn't clearing up. Usual protocol of ventapulmin and a week long course of antibiotics in case there was a bit of a chest infection (wheezing with stethoscope). Obviously we weren't on flu watch at the time, but the vet did check with me on Thursday that it had definitely 100% cleared up. I suspect if she presented like that today we'd be taking snot samples.
		
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And no one can blame you for it, especially at this time of the year. We as humans don't run to the doctors for every minor sniffle! (At least I don't )


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## Tiddlypom (9 February 2019)

There was a post on the Racing Post FB page calling for the McCain yard's vet to be struck off for bodging the vaccinations . It seems to have been taken down now, thank goodness. 

Maybe Bonny posted it?


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## paddy555 (9 February 2019)

well our local hunt are ATM galloping around the edge of us. I have no idea how far away they have travelled. They could have come from anywhere. I just wish they would go away.


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## ihatework (9 February 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			There was a post on the Racing Post FB page calling for the McCain yard's vet to be struck off for bodging the vaccinations . It seems to have been taken down now, thank goodness.

Maybe Bonny posted it?
		
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Thatâ€™s the crazy thing.

The trainer has acted completely responsibly, swabbing horses, reporting the results.

I would completely hold my hands up, if any of my horses had mild snots and a temperature I would assume they had a virus, give them some time off but wouldnâ€™t immediately be going down the testing route. For all we know there are many more cases floating around and itâ€™s only really just coming to light due to the responsible actions of racing that we have a mutant strain and we have the opportunity to nip this in the bud early.

I donâ€™t think we need hysteria, but we do need awareness and sensible precaution


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

Time will tell I guess, I think we are becoming a country that overreacts to events, interesting that we are the only country to stop racing. Maybe from here the authorities are going to say there is a problem on one yard for whatever reason or the situation wonâ€™t change and racing could stop for months. That would be a far bigger welfare problem in my opinion as well as costing millions and a lot of jobs.


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			There was a post on the Racing Post FB page calling for the McCain yard's vet to be struck off for bodging the vaccinations . It seems to have been taken down now, thank goodness.

Maybe Bonny posted it?
		
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Cheers for that ðŸ˜’ there are a lot of people blaming Donaldâ€™s yard though


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

ihatework said:



			Thatâ€™s the crazy thing.

The trainer has acted completely responsibly, swabbing horses, reporting the results.

I would completely hold my hands up, if any of my horses had mild snots and a temperature I would assume they had a virus, give them some time off but wouldnâ€™t immediately be going down the testing route. For all we know there are many more cases floating around and itâ€™s only really just coming to light due to the responsible actions of racing that we have a mutant strain and we have the opportunity to nip this in the bud early.

I donâ€™t think we need hysteria, but we do need awareness and sensible precaution
		
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Iâ€™m not sure he had much choice, at least one of his horses was tested at the track after he ran badly


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## ihatework (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Iâ€™m not sure he had much choice, at least one of his horses was tested at the track after he ran badly
		
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Isnâ€™t that normal in racing/competition ? Your horse underperforms, you run bloods. Bloods show something then you swab what has developed in the interim.

If he ran a horse with snots and temperature then he was negligent. More than likely he ran a horse in the early stages of incubation and he was none the wiser until horse ran like a dog


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## faerie666 (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Iâ€™m not sure he had much choice, at least one of his horses was tested at the track after he ran badly
		
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You need to check your facts before you post.
The runner was tested back at the yard the day after he ran, along with the rest of the horses there, AFTER the positive results for the first three came to light the night before.


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Iâ€™m not sure he had much choice, at least one of his horses was tested at the track after he ran badly
		
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It wasnt tested at the track. It was tested the following day at home. If you look at that horses track record it doesnt always run well. Its not like it was an odds on dead cert that pulled up heaving and puffing after half a circuit. I saw that horse at Ayr, I lead up a horse in that race and i thought it looked well. 

Not all horses show symptoms. Same as humans.

Did you by any chance put money on McCain's horses this week and lose thus are talking through your empty pocket?


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## tristar (9 February 2019)

sport horse ireland and another source have confirmed there are 5 outbreaks in ireland lienster and munster this year and the strain is  more pathogenic.

it also is said that should an unvaccinated horse contract flu they will produce far more virus to shed than a vaccinated horse


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

EKW said:



			It wasnt tested at the track. It was tested the following day at home. If you look at that horses track record it doesnt always run well. Its not like it was an odds on dead cert that pulled up heaving and puffing after half a circuit. I saw that horse at Ayr, I lead up a horse in that race and i thought it looked well.

Not all horses show symptoms. Same as humans.

Did you by any chance put money on McCain's horses this week and lose thus are talking through your empty pocket?
		
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I very rarely back horses and I would never back a McCain runner


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## Tiddlypom (9 February 2019)

paddy555 said:



			well our local hunt are ATM galloping around the edge of us. I have no idea how far away they have travelled. They could have come from anywhere. I just wish they would go away.
		
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Don't you live on Dartmoor? Oh great, that's just what is needed, the hunt ploughing on through and scattering herds of unvaccinated wild ponies...

*I may have hunted with that pack in the distant past*


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## Rowreach (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			I very rarely back horses and I would never back a McCain runner
		
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You haven't answered my question Bonny ...


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 February 2019)

Look how kissable his little snozz is!


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## Rowreach (9 February 2019)

tristar said:



			sport horse ireland and another source have confirmed there are 5 outbreaks in ireland lienster and munster this year and the strain is  more pathogenic.

it also is said that should an unvaccinated horse contract flu they will produce far more virus to shed than a vaccinated horse
		
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I would hazard a guess that there are far more unvaccinated horses over here than there are in the UK.  Even vaccinating for tetanus seems to be a rare thing


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## Lammy (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Time will tell I guess, I think we are becoming a country that overreacts to events, interesting that we are the only country to stop racing. Maybe from here the authorities are going to say there is a problem on one yard for whatever reason or the situation wonâ€™t change and racing could stop for months. That would be a far bigger welfare problem in my opinion as well as costing millions and a lot of jobs.
		
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Itâ€™s not a problem on one yard though is it? Itâ€™s in several yards and also showing in leisure horses vaccinated and un-vaccinated. Stop worrying about Cheltenham ffs itâ€™s unbelievably selfish. And how on Earth you think postponing racing is a welfare problem is beyond me...thereâ€™s lots of people who would claim the opposite!

I have a young one (vaccinated with ProTeq) and an old mare who unfortunately canâ€™t be vaccinated with any of the flu jabs as sheâ€™s had bad reactions to each one which had been getting worse each time she had a jab so vet and me decided to stop at 19. Iâ€™m relying on people to be sensible and to keep the yard as bio-secure as possible.


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## Amymay (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Iâ€™m going from the latest update from the BHA who have said they have 6 confirmed cases all from the same yard. They have tested 720 swabs
		
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And the other yards - leisure horses and the one that has reportedly died?


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## Pearlsasinger (9 February 2019)

It absolutely amazes me that someone who usually joins threads to say ' Oh no don't pts your 17hh, 3-legged ancient horse, find it a home as a companion' is so cavalier about horse welfare in this context.


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## Auslander (9 February 2019)

Pearlsasinger said:



			It absolutely amazes me that someone who usually joins threads to say ' Oh no don't pts your 17hh, 3-legged ancient horse, find it a home as a companion' is so cavalier about horse welfare in this context.
		
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I am beginning to suspect that said person just likes to argue...


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## Rowreach (9 February 2019)

... and still hasn't answered my question.


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## Hormonal Filly (9 February 2019)

Just saw this,
https://www.britishhorseracing.com/press_releases/daily-update-regarding-equine-influenza-situation/

Also just red this

â€œAnyone watch the racing line this morning and actual racing this afternoon? Interesting info on the flu. Interviews with an AHT/BHA vet and Alice Plunkett [wife of William Fox-Pitt].
This is a mutant strain hence it affecting vaccinated horses. Do all horses need to be on lockdown and should all events be cancelled? No and no. Over 2,000 horses tested but only the six already identified already have tested positive.
No deaths have been reported to the BHA or DEFRA which the vet would be required to do.â€

Quick question.. you all seem like you know your stuff Iâ€™m just reading reports and asked my vet what he thought.
If a infected horse was travelled past your yard, windows open in the trailer, as we get regularly being by a busy main road. Will the flu easily be carried over as itâ€™s airborne? Only I noticed quite a few travelling on the main road past our yard today, looked to be racers in racing â€˜brandedâ€™ trailers and lorries. If they sneezed etc.

One yard local to me has confined them to outdoor stables but they have yards all around them, surely as itâ€™s airborne theyâ€™re going to get it wether confined to stables or not if itâ€™s in the area?


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

Aimeetess said:



			Just saw this,
https://www.britishhorseracing.com/press_releases/daily-update-regarding-equine-influenza-situation/

Also just red this

â€œAnyone watch the racing line this morning and actual racing this afternoon? Interesting info on the flu. Interviews with an AHT/BHA vet and Alice Plunkett [wife of William Fox-Pitt].
This is a mutant strain hence it affecting vaccinated horses. Do all horses need to be on lockdown and should all events be cancelled? No and no. Over 2,000 horses tested but only the six already identified already have tested positive.
No deaths have been reported to the BHA or DEFRA which the vet would be required to do.â€

Quick question.. you all seem like you know your stuff Iâ€™m just reading reports and asked my vet what he thought.
If a infected horse was travelled past your yard, windows open in the trailer, as we get regularly being by a busy main road. Will the flu easily be carried over as itâ€™s airborne? Only I noticed quite a few travelling on the main road past our yard today, looked to be racers in racing â€˜brandedâ€™ trailers and lorries. If they sneezed etc.

One yard local to me has confined them to outdoor stables but they have yards all around them, surely as itâ€™s airborne theyâ€™re going to get it wether confined to stables or not if itâ€™s in the area?
		
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Itâ€™s contagious in the same way that human flu is, would you worry about someone passing you in a car with the windows down as they passed? I doubt it, but you might try and avoid close contact with anyone displaying symptoms. If you have flu itâ€™s prudent to stay away from people for the first few days but not everyone you come into contact with will get it.


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## ester (9 February 2019)

Yes if itâ€™s coughed or snorted. Depends on which way the wind is growing.

There are several incorrect points in what was said which doesnâ€™t help.


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## ihatework (9 February 2019)

Aimeetess ...easily transmitted? Iâ€™d say no. Potentially transmitted then yes. In the grand scheme of things I wouldnâ€™t be loosing too much sleep at this stage about horses contained within horseboxes/trailers (other than their travelling companions)


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## Pearlsasinger (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Itâ€™s contagious in the same way that human flu is, would you worry about someone passing you in a car with the windows down as they passed? I doubt it, but you might try and avoid close contact with anyone displaying symptoms. If you have flu itâ€™s prudent to stay away from people for the first few days but not everyone you come into contact with will get it.
		
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It's not actually contagious at all.  It is infectious, it is airborne.  Contagion is passed by touch.


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## ester (9 February 2019)

IHW good point I missed the easily!


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## Ambers Echo (9 February 2019)

If shutting everything down temporarily is the right thing to do, why is that not the current advice from the BEF? All NSEA, PC, BE, BS & BD events are following veterinary advice and allowing competition to continue as long as all competitors are vaccinated. Some venues are choosing to cancel but those are individual decisions made by the venues themselves and are not based on current veterinary advice. I am team manager of our NSEA school team and we went ahead today. I can't see that following the advice from the BEF that has been specifically issued about flu makes us selfish and irresponsible for competing.


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## bonny (9 February 2019)

Pearlsasinger said:



			It's not actually contagious at all.  It is infectious, it is airborne.  Contagion is passed by touch.
		
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Pedantic ! Oxford dictionary definition â€œ in practice there is little or no difference in meaning between contagious and infectious when applied to disease â€œ guess Iâ€™m being pedantic too !


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## ester (9 February 2019)

Right now I think it still depends a lot on location, which the BEF advice also canâ€™t really account for (and am not sure how frequently they are updating it. Everything stopped in somerset today and I donâ€™t think many would have been out if it hadnâ€™t.


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## ihatework (9 February 2019)

Ambers Echo said:



			If shutting everything down temporarily is the right thing to do, why is that not the current advice from the BEF? All NSEA, PC, BE, BS & BD events are following veterinary advice and allowing competition to continue as long as all competitors are vaccinated. Some venues are choosing to cancel but those are individual decisions made by the venues themselves and are not based on current veterinary advice. I am team manager of our NSEA school team and we went ahead today. I can't see that following the advice from the BEF that has been specifically issued about flu makes us selfish and irresponsible for competing.
		
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Iâ€™m with you.
I think that if the BEF advice is followed I.e non-symptomatic horses, vaccinated within 6 months using the 2 vaccines specified & within areas with no confirmed cases - I think this is not unreasonable. Venues would need to implement passport checks IMO.


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## Ambers Echo (9 February 2019)

ihatework said:



			Iâ€™m with you.
I think that if the BEF advice is followed I.e non-symptomatic horses, vaccinated within 6 months using the 2 vaccines specified & within areas with no confirmed cases - I think this is not unreasonable. Venues would need to implement passport checks IMO.
		
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All passports were checked today.


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## Shooting Star (9 February 2019)

The AHT have updated their list for today and confirmed 2 new cases, Suffolk and Hertfordshire but the Hertfordshire one had recently been moved there from somewhere in the South East.

https://www.aht.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Equiflunet-update-09-02-19-1.pdf


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## Pearlsasinger (9 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Pedantic ! Oxford dictionary definition â€œ in practice there is little or no difference in meaning between contagious and infectious when applied to disease â€œ guess Iâ€™m being pedantic too !
		
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In this context, I think it is important to know and understand the difference, because horses do not have to touch each other to pass the virus on.


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## Tiddlypom (9 February 2019)

Ambers Echo said:



			I can't see that following the advice from the BEF that has been specifically issued about flu makes us selfish and irresponsible for competing.
		
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But after reading this thread you must know that the decision to allow competition to continue this weekend is, at best, debatable?

It sure shows up the competition junkies. I would have looked at the same evidence and withdrawn from any competitions.


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## tristar (9 February 2019)

the bha clearly states they consider that the rapid action taken has helped contain the infection.

agree with pearl its highly infectious strictly speaking, horses warming up together one cough or sneezes and launches god only how many knows how many virus into the air

contagious needs physical contact,  example, i had neighbours who breed trotters,they got strangles,they were 30 meters from my horses, we did not get strangles, had they got equine influenza my horse would have got it too


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## Auslander (9 February 2019)

Going off tangent a bit - I've seen a lot of people saying that the BHA has announced that there have been no new cases since their last announcement. Just need to remember that they are only concerned with racehorses, so their statements do not include confirmed cases in leisurehorses/non racehorses


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## poiuytrewq (9 February 2019)

EKW said:



			The BHA have just said of over 700 test results back in already ONLY the original 6 from McCains yard have tested positive. This includes a couple of tests from Rebecca Menzies who had a couple of ill horses and fully expected the results to be flu. Thankfully it isn't it's just another bug that has been floating about.
		
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I was told that at work this afternoon. Good news


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## Tiddlypom (9 February 2019)

Today's AHT update. It confirms the fatality in the non vaccinated horse, one of a group of infected non thoroughbreds in Suffolk.

https://www.aht.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Equiflunet-update-09-02-19-1.pdf


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## tristar (9 February 2019)

no but racing has stopped, all the other non racing things are on or off randomly


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## paddy555 (9 February 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Don't you live on Dartmoor? Oh great, that's just what is needed, the hunt ploughing on through and scattering herds of unvaccinated wild ponies...

*I may have hunted with that pack in the distant past*
		
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if things got bad, (and the situation will hopefully get under control pretty quickly) then if it got into the semi feral herds it would be a nightmare, not just Dartmoor but all over the country. Many horses and riders are near to semi ferals (Bodmin, Dartmoor, Exmoor, New Forest, Wales and I'm sure Scotland must have several)  or to  conservation grazing ponies. Lots of semi ferals walk past my gate every day within feet of domestic horses. Hopefully everyone will take care and restrict their activities and movements for a while.


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## Mule (9 February 2019)

SEL said:



			And she would be one to get it - not known as Sick Note for nothing.....

Eye opening how many people don't vaccinate. Can't imagine why you wouldn't want to protect your horse against tetanus. Lots of weird science appearing in FB ðŸ˜•
		
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I agree. Tetanus causes an horrendous death. It's so easily preventable it's crazy to risk it.


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## flying_high (9 February 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Today's AHT update. It confirms the fatality in the non vaccinated horse, one of a group of infected non thoroughbreds in Suffolk.

https://www.aht.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Equiflunet-update-09-02-19-1.pdf

View attachment 29519

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Thanks I am a bit confused. I have today seen posts by vet business Facebook posts stating confirmed cases of equine influenza in both Middlesex (by Chiltern vets) and North Kent (by Bell Equine).

These arenâ€™t on the list yet. When a local equine vet says confirmed equine influenza is that after swab testing? After they have DNA sequence tested? 
Presumably there are strains of non FC1  equine influenza currently spreading too?

The horses on AHT list that donâ€™t say FC1 and say ongoing, could they be a different more normal strain?


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## Pearlsasinger (9 February 2019)

mule said:



			I agree. Tetanus causes an horrendous death. It's so easily preventable it's crazy to risk it.
		
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The non vaccined horses have not be given the flu vaccine, there is nothing to say that they haven't been given the tetanus vaccine, the two don't have to be given together.


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## Mule (9 February 2019)

Pearlsasinger said:



			The non vaccined horses have not be given the flu vaccine, there is nothing to say that they haven't been given the tetanus vaccine, the two don't have to be given together.
		
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I got a bit off topic (as I tend to do)
I was just talking about tetanus.


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## Pearlsasinger (9 February 2019)

mule said:



			I got a bit off topic (as I tend to do)
I was just talking about tetanus.
		
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But no-one has said that horses haven't been vaccinated against tetanus - the non vaccinated horses that the AHT are listing just haven't been given the flu vaccine.  What made you think that some horse owners don't vaccine against tet?


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## Mule (9 February 2019)

Pearlsasinger said:



			But no-one has said that horses haven't been vaccinated against tetanus - the non vaccinated horses that the AHT are listing just haven't been given the flu vaccine.  What made you think that some horse owners don't vaccine against tet?
		
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The poster I originally quoted (sel) wrote the following - 
"Eye opening how many people don't vaccinate. Can't imagine why you wouldn't want to protect your horse against tetanus. Lots of weird science appearing in FB ðŸ˜•"
That's what I was replying to.


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## The-Bookworm (9 February 2019)

faerie666 said:



			I don't know where it's been reported that a horse has died, and I'm not sure it's true, but if it is, it definitely ISN'T one of the McCain horses!
		
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It's on here.


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## ester (9 February 2019)

FH DNA sequencing isnâ€™t the initial test itâ€™s PCR. I havenâ€™t checked but would expect them to have an â€˜all fluâ€™ then a species specific PCR test.
The sequencing be carried out is to find out if/what has changed which takes a bit longer.

They usually take a nasal pharyngeal swab for PCR and blood for antibodies.


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## Pearlsasinger (9 February 2019)

mule said:



			The poster I originally quoted (sel) wrote the following -
"Eye opening how many people don't vaccinate. Can't imagine why you wouldn't want to protect your horse against tetanus. Lots of weird science appearing in FB ðŸ˜•"
That's what I was replying to.
		
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I'm sorry, I thought the original comment was yours but there is no evidence that people are not vaccinating against tetanus.  There are a lot of people who don't vaccinate against flu, if they don't compete affiliated, at least in part because the vaccine doesn't stop horses getting flu -depending on which strain has been vaccinated against.  I don't know who the original poster was but I think they have misunderstood the AHT's figures.


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## Rowreach (9 February 2019)

Pearlsasinger said:



			But no-one has said that horses haven't been vaccinated against tetanus - the non vaccinated horses that the AHT are listing just haven't been given the flu vaccine.  What made you think that some horse owners don't vaccine against tet?
		
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I did (also in answer to Sel and mule).  Lots of people don't vaccinate against tetanus over here.


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## ester (9 February 2019)

I think it was just a conversational comment given the conversations occurring elsewhere on social media right now about the evils of vaccination/plentybdont vaccinate against tet.


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## Mule (9 February 2019)

ester said:



			I think it was just a conversational comment given the conversations occurring elsewhere on social media right now about the evils of vaccination/plentybdont vaccinate against tet.
		
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That was it.


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## flying_high (9 February 2019)

ester said:



			FH DNA sequencing isnâ€™t the initial test itâ€™s PCR. I havenâ€™t checked but would expect them to have an â€˜all fluâ€™ then a species specific PCR test.
The sequencing be carried out is to find out if/what has changed which takes a bit longer.

They usually take a nasal pharyngeal swab for PCR and blood for antibodies.
		
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Thanks.

So the two Kent and Middlesex recently announced are like to definitely be Equine flu but may not be the current mutant strain of concern.

Once pcr done to see if are mutant strain of concern, if they are will be added to AHT list?

On a similar train of thought are all the cases on AHT list FC1 / current mutant strain? Or are the ones saying ongoing (some dated January) unknown / untested / could be any version of equine influenza.

Ps I did a biochemistry degree and itâ€™s a long time since I last referred to PCR!!


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## ester (9 February 2019)

Lol re PCR

I donâ€™t know what rules AHT are applying to add them, the millfield one got added very quickly after it was officially posted for instance. I think it would be a surprise if any of them arenâ€™t FC1 but they might not all be this postulated vaccine resistant strain.

From a resistance point of view the membrane proteins are the most important so they might be sequencing them first but expect they might also do while genome. The actual sequencing doesnâ€™t take long now but the analysis can take a bit longer. They have said the sequences will be added to the database but suspect theyâ€™ll have wanted to do the analysis first.

I did similar with some vaccinated pigs a while back (not flu) which was interesting but very clear once we had the sequence and we only did a small portion of genome down in the literature as the â€˜good bitâ€™.


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## meleeka (9 February 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			Flu is much more serious than strangles itâ€™s much more infectious and causes dangerously high temperatures
		
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Where does your information come from? Strangles also causes very high temperatures and certainly the two I knew fairly recently was a lot more poorly than the unvaccinated horse I knew many years ago that had flu.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (10 February 2019)

flying_high said:



			Thanks I am a bit confused. I have today seen posts by vet business Facebook posts stating confirmed cases of equine influenza in both Middlesex (by Chiltern vets) and North Kent (by Bell Equine).

These arenâ€™t on the list yet. When a local equine vet says confirmed equine influenza is that after swab testing? After they have DNA sequence tested? 
Presumably there are strains of non FC1  equine influenza currently spreading too?

The horses on AHT list that donâ€™t say FC1 and say ongoing, could they be a different more normal strain?
		
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The Middlesex one is actually the one in Hertfordshire on the AHT list,  Middlesex as a county has been long gone. Its confirmed as at Pinnerwood.


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## SEL (10 February 2019)

ester said:



			I think it was just a conversational comment given the conversations occurring elsewhere on social media right now about the evils of vaccination/plentybdont vaccinate against tet.
		
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It was me that said lots of people aren't vaccinating against tetanus. Because of the flu issues the anti vaccine brigade are out in force on various FB groups. Not just them tho, there seems to be a large number of horse owners coming out of the woodwork who just don't vaccinate! Flu might be rarely life threatening but tetanus is - and horses are susceptible.

So not relevant to this thread, just a passing comment really......


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## Tiddlypom (10 February 2019)

Fully agree, SEL. Sadly many folk don't vaccinate against tetanus either. There are the 'can't be bothered's' and the militant antivaxxers. They are popping up everywhere during the flu outbreak, hence the references to it on this thread.

ETA The AHT list refers to 'non vaccinated and 'vaccinated' horses, that is wrt flu vaccinations only.


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## TGM (10 February 2019)

Apparently there isn't a case in Kent, this appeared on FB this morning:

"There are NO confirmed cases of Equine Flu in Kent. We have double checked with Bell Equine due to the confusion of an old screenshot being shared. For the latest updates please see Animal Health Trust website latest updates, which we will post on our Facebook page. RW Equine Vet - Reuben Whittaker"

There are also no reports about a Kent outbreak in the recent posts on the Bell Equine FB page.


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## Gloi (10 February 2019)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I'm sorry, I thought the original comment was yours but there is no evidence that people are not vaccinating against tetanus.  .
		
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There was a post on my Facebook this week where somebody's pony had died of tetanus.


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## Ambers Echo (10 February 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			But after reading this thread you must know that the decision to allow competition to continue this weekend is, at best, debatable?
		
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The advice is not that competition is 'allowed' but that stopping competition is  'unecessary'. That decision is only debatable on social media. BS, BE, BD, NSEA and Pony Club are united in following BEF advice which is that: "the advice from our veterinary experts remains that it is not necessary to cancel other equine events". 



Tiddlypom said:



			It sure shows up the competition junkies. I would have looked at the same evidence and withdrawn from any competitions.
		
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No it shows that people make their own minds up regardless of veterinary advice (which is fair enough) and then decide everyone who makes a different assessment of risk and thus a different choice is wrong.


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## Goldenstar (10 February 2019)

Gloi said:



			There was a post on my Facebook this week where somebody's pony had died of tetanus. 

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As a child I saw a horse dying of tetanus it was appalling .


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## Ambers Echo (10 February 2019)

Just as a slight aside.... Out of curiosity as to how media shapes opinion and how it prioritises 'news' I googled Rebecca Menzies Flu. Her yard feared an outbreak but was cleared when tests came back negative. The top 3 stories with pictures from The Times, Sun and Sky-sports state variants of: Flu Crisis Deepens as THREE horses present with symptoms of flu. The next 3 articles also suggest a worsening crisis with sub- headlines like 'hopes of early end to flu crisis fade as another yard shows signs of flu...". Finally a headline in local news - The Northern Echo - not picked up by any of the nationals - says 'relief as tests come back negative'. That is the only story reporting the negative result on the first google search page. 

The press does love a drama.


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## DabDab (10 February 2019)

Ester, I have absolutely no idea what you're on about, but just wanted to say that it's fascinating


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## Elf On A Shelf (10 February 2019)

Ambers Echo said:



			Just as a slight aside.... Out of curiosity as to how media shapes opinion and how it prioritises 'news' I googled Rebecca Menzies Flu. Her yard feared an outbreak but was cleared when tests came back negative. The top 3 stories with pictures from The Times, Sun and Sky-sports state variants of: Flu Crisis Deepens as THREE horses present with symptoms of flu. The next 3 articles also suggest a worsening crisis with sub- headlines like 'hopes of early end to flu crisis fade as another yard shows signs of flu...". Finally a headline in local news - The Northern Echo - not picked up by any of the nationals - says 'relief as tests come back negative'. That is the only story reporting the negative result on the first google search page. 

The press does love a drama.
		
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Because it doesnt make selling papers if things go right quickly! These big tabloids will be wanting it to go on for a few more weeks so it will threaten Cheltenham and Aintree. They can concoct great stories for that and sell more papers than ones that say - Flu is under control and theres nothing to panic about.


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## Rowreach (10 February 2019)

Ambers Echo said:



			Just as a slight aside.... Out of curiosity as to how media shapes opinion and how it prioritises 'news' I googled Rebecca Menzies Flu. Her yard feared an outbreak but was cleared when tests came back negative. The top 3 stories with pictures from The Times, Sun and Sky-sports state variants of: Flu Crisis Deepens as THREE horses present with symptoms of flu. The next 3 articles also suggest a worsening crisis with sub- headlines like 'hopes of early end to flu crisis fade as another yard shows signs of flu...". Finally a headline in local news - The Northern Echo - not picked up by any of the nationals - says 'relief as tests come back negative'. That is the only story reporting the negative result on the first google search page.

The press does love a drama.
		
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I think there are enough sensible people about who can recognise a bit of media hype when they see it, but understand that taking a few simple steps in the meantime can help prevent that hype becoming reality ðŸ˜ƒ


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## flying_high (10 February 2019)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			The Middlesex one is actually the one in Hertfordshire on the AHT list,  Middlesex as a county has been long gone. Its confirmed as at Pinnerwood.
		
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Thanks. The Chiltern vets were asked if was Hertfordshire case on their Facebook page, and replied theyâ€™d reported as Middlesex. 

I was born in Middlesex hospital in Middlesex but nowhere near Pinnerwood or Hertfordshire. All very confusing. I guess Middlesex was originally a big county.


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## flying_high (10 February 2019)

TGM said:



			Apparently there isn't a case in Kent, this appeared on FB this morning:

"There are NO confirmed cases of Equine Flu in Kent. We have double checked with Bell Equine due to the confusion of an old screenshot being shared. For the latest updates please see Animal Health Trust website latest updates, which we will post on our Facebook page. RW Equine Vet - Reuben Whittaker"

There are also no reports about a Kent outbreak in the recent posts on the Bell Equine FB page.
		
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Yes


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## Ambers Echo (10 February 2019)

Rowreach said:



			I think there are enough sensible people about who can recognise a bit of media hype when they see it, but understand that taking a few simple steps in the meantime can help prevent that hype becoming reality ðŸ˜ƒ
		
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But again there is this assumption that the world of social media understand what needs to happen to avert a crisis more than the experts who are being asked for advice do.

I am sure people can see through the more hysterical press stories but it is not just hype but actively misleading to trumpet the 'worsening crisis' story without following it up with the  'oh actually maybe not' one. You have to follow the story very closely to know that that yard tested negative. 

I find it odd that people who are choosing to follow official guidance which is informed by facts and expert opinion are being criticised because the world of social and news media have a different  and much more alarmist and risk averse point of view on it. And I do suspect that the way things are being reported is part of that.


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## Goldenstar (10 February 2019)

I will be following my vets advice .
If people choose to take another more stringent path thatâ€™s up to them 
The situation for people like Tiddleypom who is very unfortunate to very very close to the affected yard is different to for instance me in a county miles and miles away with no cases .
If people want to jump up and down on the spot and say that the professional advice is wrong and all horses should locked up in their stables which people at the extreme end are saying then thatâ€™s up to them it doesnâ€™t bother me and it wonâ€™t make me change my view .


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## Rowreach (10 February 2019)

Ambers Echo said:



			But again there is this assumption that the world of social media understand what needs to happen to avert a crisis more than the experts who are being asked for advice do.

I am sure people can see through the more hysterical press stories but it is not just hype but actively misleading to trumpet the 'worsening crisis' story without following it up with the  'oh actually maybe not' one. You have to follow the story very closely to know that that yard tested negative.

I find it odd that people who are choosing to follow official guidance which is informed by facts and expert opinion are being criticised because the world of social and news media have a different  and much more alarmist and risk averse point of view on it. And I do suspect that the way things are being reported is part of that.
		
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I remember the last F&M crisis where a few cases were reported initially, in a different area to where I was running a hunter livery yard.  I rang the Masters because I assumed that hunting would be cancelled as a sensible precaution, while awaiting developments, and was told no, there has been nothing to say that the movement of animals or any events should be cancelled .....

48 hours later, complete crackdown which lasted for months.  Every day on the news, images of piles of animals being incinerated.

What is a couple of days out of anyone's timetable, just to be sure that there isn't a major epidemic brewing, which could be limited if people were just .... sensible?


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## Rowreach (10 February 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			If people want to jump up and down on the spot and say that the professional advice is wrong and all horses should locked up in their stables which people at the extreme end are saying then thatâ€™s up to them it doesnâ€™t bother me and it wonâ€™t make me change my view .
		
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I don't think anybody here is "jumping up and down", merely suggesting that there is a middle way ...


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## Ambers Echo (10 February 2019)

Not on here which is very civilised but the pitchforks are out on FB. Some comments on the pages of competition venues who are carrying on are pretty extreme. Let's hope that the experts advising the industry have got it right though and their response has been proportionate and sensible. We will know soon enough one way or another....


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## ester (10 February 2019)

One of the somerset centres was still going to be running quoting that they were following BEF guidelines. Frankly that was a bit daft and they did at least change their minds once this was pointed out to them .
I think one of the hunts was going out but also changed their minds in the end.

The trouble is the pros/experts canâ€™t really win. If it simmers down quickly it will have been an over reaction, if it escalated they wonâ€™t have done enough.

Itâ€™s amazing how quickly I become a much more popular friend though! ðŸ˜‚


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## PapaverFollis (10 February 2019)

Ester for President!


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## DabDab (10 February 2019)

PapaverFollis said:



			Ester for President!
		
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Definitely if it looks like we might end up in some biological world war....


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## angrybird1 (10 February 2019)

I really dont get the attitude  of  some  people. 
Surely  it makes more sense  to be cautious.   Better  to have a couple of weeks of inconvience now than risk  a major  outbreak.  So what if it's  overkill.
It's better than the alternative.


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## PapaverFollis (10 February 2019)

If you look at worst case scenarios for each option I would prefer a total lockdown on equine movement for a couple of weeks that turns out to have been unnecessary than a widespread outbreak of a new flu strain... but maybe that's just me.  There's only two roads into my county... Maybe I should go for the barricade option?


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## TGM (10 February 2019)

angrybird1 said:



			I really dont get the attitude  of  some  people.
Surely  it makes more sense  to be cautious.   Better  to have a couple of weeks of inconvience now than risk  a major  outbreak.  So what if it's  overkill.
It's better than the alternative.
		
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The trouble is, where do you draw the line?  There is ALWAYS a risk of infection when you take horses out and about.  I am involved with a local hunt and they took veterinary advice on whether they should cancel this weekend's meet and the advice they were given by a top vet was that there was absolutely no reason why they should cancel.  (This is in an area where there have been no confirmed cases).  As it happened the meet was cancelled anyway, mainly due to ground conditions.  But you can see the dilemma people face when the professional advice coming from both vets and the AHT that there is no need to cancel equestrian events.


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## SEL (10 February 2019)

TGM said:



			The trouble is, where do you draw the line?  There is ALWAYS a risk of infection when you take horses out and about.  I am involved with a local hunt and they took veterinary advice on whether they should cancel this weekend's meet and the advice they were given by a top vet was that there was absolutely no reason why they should cancel.  (This is in an area where there have been no confirmed cases).  As it happened the meet was cancelled anyway, mainly due to ground conditions.  But you can see the dilemma people face when the professional advice coming from both vets and the AHT that there is no need to cancel equestrian events.
		
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Most places around here - no cases reported as yet - have gone for the 'only bring your horse if it is vaccinated in the last 6 months and make sure you have its passport with you'. A few friends were grounded this weekend because their boosters were over 6 months, but people are being pretty pragmatic at the moment. Probably helps that its February and we're just recovering from a week of snow.

Irrelevant for me as the walking vet's bill isn't going anywhere. Plus I'm pretty sure if she caught flu it would mutate into some really nasty form and bring down all equine activities for months


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## catkin (10 February 2019)

Good to hear that people are being pragmatic SEL.

The problem with something like this is that the risks and vulnerabilities are different for each of us - those with breeding stock and oldies for example do have more to worry about - and that's where good neighbourliness comes in.


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## catkin (10 February 2019)

Can I ask a question - though I guess it's a 'how longs a piece of string' type answer.

How long does the virus stay viable outside of a host? Is it hours, days, weeks? Thinking here of horse-sneeze droplets on a road or hedge.


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## ester (10 February 2019)

36 hours is most usually quoted


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## catkin (10 February 2019)

thank you ester

Just been chewing the fat with some hacking buddies from a different yard - it's quite odd to be thinking of co-ordinating hacking to NOT meet up (and to avoid neighbours with oldies and broodies)........


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## Michen (10 February 2019)

I just donâ€™t get the hysteria within the leisure horse community. There are professional eventers posting on social media at hunt meets, with horses worth a small fortune. Do we really think they would be â€œriskingâ€ their horses and livelihoods in such a way if it was all so bad...?


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## ester (10 February 2019)

I wouldnâ€™t expect professional eventers to have a background in virology so they are making those decisions based on others advice not in their own.


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## Gloi (10 February 2019)

I was quite shocked today when someone at the stables who cossets her horse with all sorts of massages and treatments was talking about having to get it vaccinated in order to go to a camp this summer and admitted it wasn't even covered for tetanus because someone had told her it didn't need any vaccinations as she didn't compete.


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## Ambers Echo (10 February 2019)

angrybird1 said:



			I really dont get the attitude  of  some  people.
Surely  it makes more sense  to be cautious.   Better  to have a couple of weeks of inconvience now than risk  a major  outbreak.  So what if it's  overkill.
It's better than the alternative.
		
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Well that's the whole point of my posts really. Everyone seem to believe they occupy that sensible middle ground between overly cautious and overly risky. And then demands that everyone agrees with them and condemns people who don't. Well I also believe I occupy that middle ground - as I am sure do the vets whose advice I am following. They doubtless believe that the advice they are giving is proportionate and sensible.

Ester, people out and about are following vets advice. Not just any old vet but the vets who are tasked with advising the equine community specifically on this flu outbreak right now. I suspect they know a little bit about virology.


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## ester (10 February 2019)

Sorry thatâ€™s what I was saying?


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## Ambers Echo (10 February 2019)

ester said:



			Sorry thatâ€™s whatâ€™s I was saying?
		
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Sorry if I misunderstood you. I thought you were suggesting the eventers were only out as a result of ignorance of virology and therefore of risk? I was saying they may not understand the science but they are accepting guidance from people who definitely do.


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## Michen (10 February 2019)

Ambers Echo said:



			Well that's the whole point of my posts really. Everyone seem to believe they occupy that sensible middle ground between overly cautious and overly risky. And then demands that everyone agrees with them and condemns people who don't. Well I also believe I occupy that middle ground - as I am sure do the vets whose advice I am following. They doubtless believe that the advice they are giving is proportionate and sensible.

Ester, people out and about are following vets advice. Not just any old vet but the vets who are tasked with advising the equine community specifically on this flu outbreak right now. I suspect they know a little bit about virology.
		
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ester said:



			I wouldnâ€™t expect professional eventers to have a background in virology so they are making those decisions based on others advice not in their own.
		
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Not suggesting they would- but they will be taking advice from their vets... who seem to be comfortable with the idea of them continueing business as usual. ðŸ¤·â€â™€ï¸


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## ester (10 February 2019)

Ambers Echo said:



			Sorry if I misunderstood you. I thought you were suggesting the eventers were only out as a result of ignorance of virology and therefore of risk? I was saying they may not understand the science but they are accepting guidance from people who definitely do.
		
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Nope I was saying it wasnâ€™t them making the decisions, they were taking advice from SQP.

Some vets are happy with continuing as usual, others in affected areas have advised shutdown and no hacking

Others have put a mass invite out for horses to be vaccinated at practice.


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## Tiddlypom (10 February 2019)

There are vets, and there are vets...

I come from a family packed full with doctors. They frequently disagree on things medical .

I absolutely stand by my ground that I would err on the side of caution until the situation becomes clearer, which it may well do in a week or so. So what to a day's hunting or a competition lost. Incidentally, I haven't been reading newspaper (or other) scare stories, I am making up my own mind, after considering many points of view, I am no one's puppet.


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## Red-1 (10 February 2019)

ester said:



			One of the somerset centres was still going to be running quoting that they were following BEF guidelines. Frankly that was a bit daft and they did at least change their minds once this was pointed out to them .
I think one of the hunts was going out but also changed their minds in the end.

The trouble is the pros/experts canâ€™t really win. If it simmers down quickly it will have been an over reaction, if it escalated they wonâ€™t have done enough.

Itâ€™s amazing how quickly I become a much more popular friend though! ðŸ˜‚
		
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I may be being thick, but BEF has issued those guidelines...

https://www.bef.co.uk/News-Detail.a...0r_KgNM7LQ4wbInTz7nexE2woQjPRWz4ZayUfjcBpjFpY

*BEF Advice After Equine Flu Outbreak*
Your location: news > bef advice after equine flu outbreak
07.02.19
Following British Horseracingâ€™s decision to cancel all racing today (7 February) the British Equestrian Federation (BEF) is closely monitoring the situation. Veterinary experts have advised that it is not necessary to cancel other equine events at this time, but we will issue a further update once the full extent of the outbreak is known.  
In the meantime, we recommend that all owners follow the guidelines below as a precaution and ensure that all vaccinations are fully up to date. If your horse is currently vaccinated, we recommend a booster if it has been longer than 6 months since your horseâ€™s last vaccination.
*Actions for owners to take:                                                                                                            *
It is crucial for all horse and pony owners to be vigilant and follow recommended guidelines on how to detect and prevent the spread of this infectious disease.
Look out for signs of disease which can include high temperature, cough, snotty nose, enlarged glands (under the lower jaw), swollen or sore eyes, depression, loss of appetite and swelling in the lower legs.
If you see any of these signs, isolate the horse and call your vet immediately.
It is essential that any horses showing signs of possible equine flu, or horses that might have been in contact with possibly infected horses, do not travel to competitions or other events where there will be groups of horses. If your horse has been in contact with an infected horse we suggest that you should take immediate veterinary advice.
If your horse is currently vaccinated, but it has been longer than 6 months since the last vaccination, we recommend that you discuss a booster that is effective against this strain of flu with your vet.
The BEF also has guidance on its website regarding equine infectious diseases and is urging owners to take the necessary precautions to avoid their horses becoming infected.


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## Michen (10 February 2019)

Iâ€™m sure there are plenty out there who have, but certainly all the professional riders I follow on social media are all still out competing/training/hunting etc. 

Why are they seemingly ok with it but not leisure riders? 




Tiddlypom said:



			There are vets, and there are vets...

I come from a family packed full with doctors. They frequently disagree on things medical .

I absolutely stand by my ground that I would err on the side of caution until the situation becomes clearer, which it may well do in a week or so. So what to a day's hunting or a competition lost. Incidentally, I haven't been reading newspaper (or other) scare stories, I am making up my own mind, after considering many points of view, I am no one's puppet.
		
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## Cortez (10 February 2019)

Michen said:



			Iâ€™m sure there are plenty out there who have, but certainly all the professional riders I follow on social media are all still out competing/training/hunting etc.

Why are they seemingly ok with it but not leisure riders?
		
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Because it's their livelihood? The same can be said for the racing industry of course, although I think racehorses move about more frequently. 

For me I'll be erring on the side of caution, a little bit of short term pain is far preferable to the potential calamity of a full blown equine 'flu outbreak.


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## Ambers Echo (10 February 2019)

Michen said:



			all the professional riders I follow on social media are all still out competing/training/hunting etc
		
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There seems to me to be a disconnect between what is actually going on out in the real world, which is  largely Business As Usual and the mood of social media. The virtual world seems overwhelmingly pro much tighter restrictions on horse movements. But out in real life, there were very few withdrawals at NSEA and there was a full turnout at pony club today. And my FB feed and insta account are as full of people out having adventures as it usually is. Given that the official advice is that it is 'not necessary' to cancel events, that does not at all surprise me. I can't see why still being out is controversial really. I can see why people may choose not to be but I can't fathom the  inability to see that following the published advice is a reasonable choice even if it is not the one you would choose.

I am not trying to tell anyone they are over-reacting and should crack on. But plenty of people are telling those who are following advice that they are under-reacting.


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## Michen (10 February 2019)

Cortez said:



			Because it's their livelihood? The same can be said for the racing industry of course, although I think racehorses move about more frequently.

For me I'll be erring on the side of caution, a little bit of short term pain is far preferable to the potential calamity of a full blown equine 'flu outbreak.
		
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But then wouldnâ€™t they be even more concerned, as for one of their horses to pick up flu could be disasterous in terms of income etc?


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## Michen (10 February 2019)

Ambers Echo said:



			There seems to me to be a disconnect between what is actually going on out in the real world, which is  largely Business As Usual and the mood of social media. The virtual world seems overwhelmingly pro much tighter restrictions on horse movements. But out in real life, there were very few withdrawals at NSEA and there was a full turnout at pony club today. And my FB feed and insta account are as full of people out having adventures as it usually is. Given that the official advice is that it is 'not necessary' to cancel events, that does not at all surprise me. I can't see why still being out is controversial really. I can see why people may choose not to be but I can't fathom the  inability to see that following the published advice is a reasonable choice even if it is not the one you would choose.

I am not trying to tell anyone they are over-reacting and should crack on. But plenty of people are telling those who are following advice that they are under-reacting.
		
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Completely agree with all of this post. Well said!


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## Cortez (10 February 2019)

Michen said:



			But then wouldnâ€™t they be even more concerned, as for one of their horses to pick up flu could be disasterous in terms of income etc?
		
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You'd think so, wouldn't you?


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## Sheep (10 February 2019)

I'm pleased to see it is being taken seriously by most in the horse world, a bit of short term pain is definitely preferable! 
My horses haven't left the yard in years (except for the odd hack) however quite a few fellow liveries do compete. 
YO has taken advice from 2 local vets and any horse on the yard vaccinated over 6 months ago is getting a booster this week.


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## ycbm (10 February 2019)

This argument to me sounds as if it hinges aground how driven you are to get out and hunt/compete/train.

I'll freely admit that if I was still hunting, when I was hooked on my adrenalin fix each week, that I'd be taking the advice of  vets if the majority said it was ok to go.

Now I'm not in that situation, I'm in the 'better a short term overreaction than an epidemic' camp, and staying home at least  until racing restarts.

I am honestly baffled, though, by professionals going out on horses they intend to compete this spring. Why would you?


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## Tiddlypom (10 February 2019)

For those folk who haven't concerned themselves much with the nitty gritty of the outbreak, and have simply heard that the official advice is to go ahead, then fair do's.

As I referred to earlier, it's those who know that there ARE grave worries about it, and how valid those concerns are, and then still carry on with their jollies, that I find hard to reconcile.


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## Ambers Echo (10 February 2019)

Most recent update: No new cases. Now about 1500 negative tests. Decision about a return to racing on Wednesday to be made tomorrow evening. The results so far are 'encouraging' but need more results to make an evidence based decision.

https://www.britishhorseracing.com/press_releases/bha-update-regarding-equine-influenza-case-3/


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## Ambers Echo (10 February 2019)

Who knows there are 'grave worries' that are not known to the BEF and BHA? They all sound cautiously optimistic not gravely worried to me.


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## Michen (10 February 2019)

ycbm said:



			This argument to me sounds as if it hinges aground how driven you are to get out and hunt/compete/train.

I'll freely admit that if I was still hunting, when I was hooked on my adrenalin fix each week, that I'd be taking the advice of  vets if the majority said it was ok to go.

Now I'm not in that situation, I'm in the 'better a short term overreaction than an epidemic' camp, and staying home at least  until racing restarts.

I am honestly baffled, though, by professionals going out on horses they intend to compete this spring. Why would you?
		
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Because they need to prep said horses for competing, and their vet has told them itâ€™s ok? If you donâ€™t trust your vet enough to follow their advice, you probably need to change vets?


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## ycbm (10 February 2019)

Michen said:



			Because they need to prep said horses for competing, and their vet has told them itâ€™s ok? If you donâ€™t trust your vet enough to follow their advice, you probably need to change vets?
		
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No, don't get it, sorry. 

If you knew yourself that all racing had been cancelled and that there was a spreading number of equine flu cases in the country including vaccinated horses, likely due to a mutated virus, why would you trust anyone at all to tell you that it's safe to go out?  When just staying at home for a couple more days will avoid any risk at all to a pro horse that's  due to compete this spring?

Personally, I'd err on the side of caution, because I can't see any downside to the caution. Nothing to do with not trusting the vet, I wouldn't even be asking them.


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## Shooting Star (10 February 2019)

Following the guidelines is absolutely your choice. my issue is that around here the local event that werenâ€™t cancelled today were as full as ever and there is no way that half of the Equine owning community (assuming annual boosters are evenly distributed across the year for arguments sake) managed to get booster shots between the guidelines being published and this weekend so it would seem highly likely that around here at least the guidelines are not actually being followed.

We have a confirmed case less than 20 miles away which is well within the catchment area of local events and so coupled with my point above for me personally itâ€™s a no brainer to stay at home for me.

Sadly the BHA reporting is somewhat misleading, no new cases refers to racehorses only and they have not stipulated this, there have been several new cases in leisure horses, the last one was confirmed yesterday by the AHT contrary to the BHA report.
https://www.aht.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Equiflunet-update-09-02-19-1.pdf


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## ester (10 February 2019)

Red I wasnâ€™t saying they hadnâ€™t, itâ€™s just that the local situation had changed rather quickly. Several local vets were saying not to hack out etc.

I too think the BHA reports are a bit misleading to the wider situation. 

I do also think there are still two slightly different issues, spread and individuals affected. Added to a cost/risk analysis on limited data.


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## DabDab (10 February 2019)

And important to note that the testing resource will have been clogged up my racehorse swabs this weekend, most of whom won't have even been symptomatic. It will be into next week before there is any real view on how big a problem it is in the leisure horse population


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## Elf On A Shelf (10 February 2019)

People need to understand that the BHA report on no new cases is just that - The British Horse Racing results! Nothing to do with normal horses. And yes, they will be at the back of the que to be tested once they work through over 2000 racehorses.


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## Ambers Echo (10 February 2019)

Ok so in the general, non race horse population are the number of cases generally higher or lower than you would normally expect to see? Bearing in mind that I suspect reporting is far higher than normal as flu is upper-most in people's minds. Is this a spread of the flu that has affected race horses or just cases of flu which presumably occur every year anyway. My assumption ( and I am happy to be corrected) is that the race-horses getting flu is a problem because they race all over the country and come into contact with other horses who race  all over the country so scattering it everywhere rapidly. So halting that was imperative. But that for the rest of us who basically live, compete, hack out more or less locally it is really not that significant unless you are very near an outbreak in which case yes obviously follow local advice specific to your area. I know it is airborne but presumably there is a limit to how far it can travel and a reduction in likelihood of transmission the further away from the source it is.


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## Elf On A Shelf (10 February 2019)

Ambers Echo said:



			Ok so in the general, non race horse population are the number of cases generally higher or lower than you would normally expect to see? Bearing in mind that I suspect reporting is far higher than normal as flu is upper-most in people's minds. Is this a spread of the flu that has affected race horses or just cases of flu which presumably occur every year anyway. My assumption ( and I am happy to be corrected) is that the race-horses getting flu is a problem because they race all over the country and come into contact with other horses who race  all over the country so scattering it everywhere rapidly. So halting that was imperative. But that for the rest of us who basically live, compete, hack out more or less locally it is really not that significant unless you are very near an outbreak in which case yes obviously follow local advice specific to your area. I know it is airborne but presumably there is a limit to how far it can travel and a reduction in likelihood of transmission the further away from the source it is.
		
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Pretty much yes, i doubt the overall number of cases of flu is up much more than average but the difference this time is that it is breaking through vaccines which is why people are worried. 

But actually how many vacced horses over the years have caught flu anyway but never been tested for it because they only really had minor sniffles that was just put down to a routine bug?


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## rabatsa (10 February 2019)

I wonder how many horses/ponies/donkeys up and down the country that are a bit off colour with a bit of a cough and snotty nose never will get to see a vet as it is "just a winter dust allergy."  Especially if they are non ridden equines.


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## PapaverFollis (10 February 2019)

I think someone up thread or on another thread said it's higher than normal incidence? And certainly not normal to find it in vaccinated horses. That's the problem for me, that it might be a new strain that nothing is vaccinated against. The normal strains are not something I worry about as my horses have always been vaccinated. A new strain is a concern.


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## Shooting Star (10 February 2019)

2018 had 3 cases in twelve months according to H&H report, 2019 has 10 cases in 6 weeks, many of these before the general public were aware so highly unlikely just to be due to raised awareness.

Cases this year are occurring in vaccinated horses too which is much less usual hence the concern that current vaccines are offering only limited protection and the strain may have mutated.

Leisure horses getting this is also an issue, it is highly infectious, the young, the old and those with impaired immune systems are at greater risk hence the death that has already occurred.

Supposedly it can travel around 100m airborne but as demonstrated by the current spread of cases this isnâ€™t in a few miles radius so presumably due to horses coming into contact at events, through moves of yards, sales etc (recent Irish import accounts for one case I believe).


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## palo1 (10 February 2019)

It's frustrating isn't it?  We are statistically, many counties away from any identified flu cases yet at least 1 local race-horse trainer has been completely up front about the fact that their horses were racing at one of the courses where horses with flu were also racing.  Although at the moment none of those horses has been found to be infectious, it does potentially mean that flu could have been brought far more local than I thought 2 or 3 days ago.  This trainer's staff of course have their own lives, many have horses of their own and the horses on the trainer's yard are going out for exercise.  I don't have an issue with any of that and am certain that everything is being done to ensure that any viral load is contained but the fact is that tomorrow we could find that there are in fact new cases that are in counties that have been clear previously.  It may take a couple of days for the news to get to me that there are, in fact, horses local to me with the infection.

I have no way of finding out how and where infection may have been spread out from either that point or another: like most places in Britain there are a number of racing yards fairly locally.  For me, with a mixed herd - some vaccinated, some not, it makes sense to sit tight until I know that the likelihood of flu being local to us is either significant or insignificant.   It's not about being hysterical, about over-reacting or anything like that - I am entirely comfortable with the risks my horses have on a daily basis but I am simply taking what I know about flu and acting how I think sensible. I struggle to believe that more professional/competitive riders can't factor in the loss of a few days training during the winter - that would be completely naive!  Personally, I can't quite see why more people can't just accept a few days without going out in order to understand the spread of flu cases and then act accordingly but I am not losing sleep over it.   I just think it is quite funny actually, how desperate people are for a rosette, a placing, a run, a hack/whatever so they MUST get out.  If I was a professional I may feel differently but hell, I don't mind doing what I can to avoid a vet's bill and something potentially even more inconvenient and expensive than boredom... ETA don't mean to infer that it may be only racing yards that could bring flu into my area but I am aware that my post could read like that!!  I am very aware that those folk heading off to dressage/jumping etc could also, entirely unwittingly return home with something extra.


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## Orangehorse (10 February 2019)

bonny said:



			How do you think people moving their ponies around, going to shows etc affects the racing industry ?
		
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It isn't just the racing industry though, if it got out into the wider horse population.  Mares in foal, new born foals, any horse can be infected.  It is serious, horses die from flu and if they get it may never be the same again.  Even recovered horses can die later due to damage done to the heart.


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## bonny (10 February 2019)

palo1 said:



			It's frustrating isn't it?  We are statistically, many counties away from any identified flu cases yet at least 1 local race-horse trainer has been completely up front about the fact that their horses were racing at one of the courses where horses with flu were also racing.  Although at the moment none of those horses has been found to be infectious, it does potentially mean that flu could have been brought far more local than I thought 2 or 3 days ago.  This trainer's staff of course have their own lives, many have horses of their own and the horses on the trainer's yard are going out for exercise.  I don't have an issue with any of that and am certain that everything is being done to ensure that any viral load is contained but the fact is that tomorrow we could find that there are in fact new cases that are in counties that have been clear previously.  It may take a couple of days for the news to get to me that there are, in fact, horses local to me with the infection.

I have no way of finding out how and where infection may have been spread out from either that point or another: like most places in Britain there are a number of racing yards fairly locally.  For me, with a mixed herd - some vaccinated, some not, it makes sense to sit tight until I know that the likelihood of flu being local to us is either significant or insignificant.   It's not about being hysterical, about over-reacting or anything like that - I am entirely comfortable with the risks my horses have on a daily basis but I am simply taking what I know about flu and acting how I think sensible. I struggle to believe that more professional/competitive riders can't factor in the loss of a few days training during the winter - that would be completely naive!  Personally, I can't quite see why more people can't just accept a few days without going out in order to understand the spread of flu cases and then act accordingly but I am not losing sleep over it.   I just think it is quite funny actually, how desperate people are for a rosette, a placing, a run, a hack/whatever so they MUST get out.  If I was a professional I may feel differently but hell, I don't mind doing what I can to avoid a vet's bill and something potentially even more inconvenient and expensive than boredom... ETA don't mean to infer that it may be only racing yards that could bring flu into my area but I am aware that my post could read like that!!  I am very aware that those folk heading off to dressage/jumping etc could also, entirely unwittingly return home with something extra.
		
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There are 6 racehorses confirmed to have flu, there are estimated to be one million horses in the uk. Waiting a few days to see what the risks are to your horses is going to achieve what ? Do you worry as much for yourself catching flu?


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## ester (10 February 2019)

oh we're still sticking with just the racehorse infections while including all the horses in the UK how does that work. 

I do worry about myself catching flu, which is why I pay for a vaccination every year.


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## Pippity (10 February 2019)

bonny said:



			There are 6 racehorses confirmed to have flu, there are estimated to be one million horses in the uk. Waiting a few days to see what the risks are to your horses is going to achieve what ? Do you worry as much for yourself catching flu?
		
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Last time I had flu, I had to be hospitalised with IV antibiotics. When I caught it back in the late 90s, I ended up developing ME as a result, which has completely buggered up my life. So, yes, I do worry that much for myself catching flu.

Human flu isn't something that can just be easily shaken off - it's developed that reputation because people insist on calling a bad cold 'flu'. Eighty thousand people died of flu in the USA last year. I'm sure you've heard of the Spanish Flu pandemic, which killed more people than WWI.

So, yes, I am happy to restrict my hacking and not bother with competitions/clinics/etc. until we know more.


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## PapaverFollis (10 February 2019)

Flu isn't just a fepping head cold is it?


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## Meredith (10 February 2019)

As I have mentioned before I have had proper flu too. It is not nice and I certainly donâ€™t want it again. It does affect your future health and should be taken more seriously.  I get annoyed too when people say they have flu when it is just a bad cold.



Pippity said:



			Last time I had flu, I had to be hospitalised with IV antibiotics. When I caught it back in the late 90s, I ended up developing ME as a result, which has completely buggered up my life. So, yes, I do worry that much for myself catching flu.

Human flu isn't something that can just be easily shaken off - it's developed that reputation because people insist on calling a bad cold 'flu'. Eighty thousand people died of flu in the USA last year. I'm sure you've heard of the Spanish Flu pandemic, which killed more people than WWI.

So, yes, I am happy to restrict my hacking and not bother with competitions/clinics/etc. until we know more.
		
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## Mule (10 February 2019)

Pippity said:



			Human flu isn't something that can just be easily shaken off - it's developed that reputation because people insist on calling a bad cold 'flu'.
		
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I agree. I've seen people strolling about with a runny nose claiming they have the flu. They would/should be in bed if they had a flu.


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## bonny (10 February 2019)

People donâ€™t on the whole get tested or even go to the doctor so we have no way of knowing who has flu and who has a bad cold. The same is true for most horses so we canâ€™t compare years or get an accurate picture of what is going on.


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## Mule (10 February 2019)

bonny said:



			People donâ€™t on the whole get tested or even go to the doctor so we have no way of knowing who has flu and who has a bad cold. The same is true for most horses so we canâ€™t compare years or get an accurate picture of what is going on.
		
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I'd wager that a genuine flu is bad enough that the vast majority with it would contact a GP. I know I've never had a flu, I have had some unpleasant colds.


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## bonny (10 February 2019)

mule said:



			I'd wager that a genuine flu is bad enough that the vast majority with it would contact a GP. I know I've never had one
		
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I wouldnâ€™t and advice is not to unless you have secondary symptoms


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## Shooting Star (10 February 2019)

bonny said:



			I wouldnâ€™t and advice is not to unless you have secondary symptoms
		
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So your evidence is based on a very scientific sample of one thenðŸ˜


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## Mule (10 February 2019)

bonny said:



			I wouldnâ€™t and advice is not to unless you have secondary symptoms
		
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Despite that you still hear of people going into gp's or emergency departments and risking infection of the whole place.


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## ester (10 February 2019)

We can actually compare January 2018 to this one.

But I'm guessing you probably aren't an epidemiologist. Some people are monitoring incidence globally all the time.


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## Meredith (10 February 2019)

Back to personal experience of flu. The doctor came out to me. I spent most of over 2 weeks in bed.  I could not walk, I crawled as my breathing was so bad. Later I was referrred for breathing tests. This was mid â€˜80â€™s.


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## Mule (10 February 2019)

I had forgotten about this until the mention of the Spanish flu. My great grandfather died from the Spanish flu. He was my grandmother's father. The Spanish flu seems such a long time ago but I suppose when something is in living memory it's not so long ago.


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## meleeka (10 February 2019)

ester said:



			We can actually compare January 2018 to this one.

But I'm guessing you probably aren't an epidemiologist. Some people are monitoring incidence globally all the time.
		
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Does this monitoring include leisure horses?  I donâ€™t think itâ€™s a notifiable disease so what exactly are they minoring?


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## MotherOfChickens (10 February 2019)

bonny said:



			I wouldnâ€™t and advice is not to unless you have secondary symptoms
		
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tbh if you have flu and work, you have to go see them/get them to see you so you can be signed off work-self certifying for the 7 or so days will not cut it. I had it 7 years ago, I didn't leave my bed for 7 days and there was definitely no wandering about complaining I had the flu, even on social media.


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## ester (10 February 2019)

meleeka said:



			Does this monitoring include leisure horses?  I donâ€™t think itâ€™s a notifiable disease so what exactly are they minoring?
		
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yes it does, I can only find the OIE summary which was of 2017 atm (OIE meeting march 2018), they mention TB or non-TB. There's too many results currently!


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## ycbm (10 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Do you worry as much for yourself catching flu?
		
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Hell yes!  I can only assume you've never had a real case. I've had it at 14 and again last year 45 years later.  Both times it wiped me out for weeks. My dose last year has left me with permanently reduced lung capacity and I now have an inhaler. 

For a horse with a much longer, deeper airway, it can easily be career, or even life,  ending.


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## Amymay (10 February 2019)

Meredith said:



			Back to personal experience of flu. The doctor came out to me. I spent most of over 2 weeks in bed.  I could not walk, I crawled as my breathing was so bad. Later I was referrred for breathing tests. This was mid â€˜80â€™s.
		
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Yep. Same for me. I was 14 and was off school for a month in total.  Luckily I wasn't hospitalised.  But I was very I'll for quite some time, and recovery generally took a long time.


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## bonny (10 February 2019)

Personal accounts are just that ! I could just as easily say I had flu last year, felt rough for a couple of days and then was fine.  Apparently 20% of people who would test positive for flu have no symptoms at all......non of this proves anything. How do you know when what feels like bad cold is actually flu ?


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## ycbm (10 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Personal accounts are just that ! I could just as easily say I had flu last year, felt rough for a couple of days and then was fine.  Apparently 20% of people who would test positive for flu have no symptoms at all......non of this proves anything. How do you know when what feels like bad cold is actually flu ?
		
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Like I said, you've clearly never actually had it or you wouldn't need to ask the question.

Testing positive for antibodies is not the same as having had the disease. I test positive for TB, but I've never had it, I was just exposed to a close relative who had it as a child.


..


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## Mule (10 February 2019)

I think tests are the only way to know for sure, but this is a useful guide.


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## meleeka (10 February 2019)

ester said:



			yes it does, I can only find the OIE summary which was of 2017 atm (OIE meeting march 2018), they mention TB or non-TB. There's too many results currently!
		
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So presumably still competition horses? Iâ€™m just trying to work out accurate the monitoring is if itâ€™s not a notifyable disease. Iâ€™m quite sure that the last horse I knew of that had it wasnâ€™t reported to anyone above the vet that treated it. (This was a few years ago).


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## Cortez (10 February 2019)

bonny said:



			People donâ€™t on the whole get tested or even go to the doctor so we have no way of knowing who has flu and who has a bad cold. The same is true for most horses so we canâ€™t compare years or get an accurate picture of what is going on.
		
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Believe me, if you'd ever had flu, or seen someone with it, you would know that it wasn't just a bad cold. I have seen a horse die from equine influenza; it's not just a snotty nose.


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## bonny (10 February 2019)

Cortez said:



			Believe me, if you'd ever had flu, or seen someone with it, you would know that it wasn't just a bad cold. I have seen a horse die from equine influenza; it's not just a snotty nose.
		
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Thatâ€™s just patronising, you have no way of knowing my medical history or the history of those close to me......my point was that personal stories are just that, they are evidence of nothing.


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## Lammy (10 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Personal accounts are just that ! I could just as easily say I had flu last year, felt rough for a couple of days and then was fine.  Apparently 20% of people who would test positive for flu have no symptoms at all......non of this proves anything. How do you know when what feels like bad cold is actually flu ?
		
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And 87% of people who are screened positive for rectal cancer have had no symptoms at all...doesnâ€™t mean to say it wonâ€™t kill you. Just because one persons immune system is better than anotherâ€™s is no grounds to rule that flu is not an issue. Same for horses, it might not kill a fit healthy 8 year old but it potentially will see off an 18 year old with other health issues.


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## Cortez (10 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Thatâ€™s just patronising, you have no way of knowing my medical history or the history of those close to me......my point was that personal stories are just that, they are evidence of nothing.
		
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I don't particularly care about your medical history, but you do seem hell bent on simply dismissing any facts that don't agree with your opinion.


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## bonny (10 February 2019)

Lammy said:



			And 87% of people who are screened positive for rectal cancer have had no symptoms at all...doesnâ€™t mean to say it wonâ€™t kill you. Just because one persons immune system is better than anotherâ€™s is no grounds to rule that flu is not an issue. Same for horses, it might not kill a fit healthy 8 year old but it potentially will see off an 18 year old with other health issues.
		
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Iâ€™m not sure you should compare cancer to flu


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## bonny (10 February 2019)

Cortez said:



			I don't particularly care about your medical history, but you do seem hell bent on simply dismissing any facts that don't agree with your opinion.
		
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What facts have I disagreed with ?


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## DabDab (10 February 2019)

Presumably then the nhs spends a ton of money vaccinating vulnerable people against flu every because they just have too much money to know what to do with...


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## bonny (10 February 2019)

DabDab said:



			Presumably then the nhs spends a ton of money vaccinating vulnerable people against flu every because they just have too much money to know what to do with...
		
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No of course not, flu is dangerous to vulnerable people or horses, no one has argued that is isnâ€™t. Iâ€™ve just been reading though how ineffectual the vaccine seems to be in people and how the uptake is going down in over 65s.


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## Cortez (10 February 2019)

bonny said:



			What facts have I disagreed with ?
		
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That a bad cold is not flu; that waiting for a few days will do nothing; that healthy horses do not die from flu.........pretty much anything sensible that people have come up with.


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## DabDab (10 February 2019)

bonny said:



			No of course not, flu is dangerous to vulnerable people or horses, no one has argued that is isnâ€™t. Iâ€™ve just been reading though how ineffectual the vaccine seems to be in people and how the uptake is going down in over 65s.
		
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So why do you think it is in any way strange that people are choosing to be cautious and stay home with their horses?


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## bonny (10 February 2019)

Cortez said:



			That a bad cold is not flu; that waiting for a few days will do nothing; that healthy horses do not die from flu.........pretty much anything sensible that people have come up with.
		
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Ok, I think a lot of people who are ill with a virus think they have flu, without testing itâ€™s impossible to know, without being in someoneâ€™s shoes you donâ€™t know how bad they feel anyway. No, I donâ€™t believe healthy horses die from flu, Iâ€™m not saying they never have but I think itâ€™s very unlikely. And no, I donâ€™t think cancelling hunting, shows and racing for a few days will achieve anything, Iâ€™m hardly alone in thinking that !


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## bonny (10 February 2019)

DabDab said:



			So why do you think it is in any way strange that people are choosing to be cautious and stay home with their horses?
		
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Obviously thatâ€™s fine if thatâ€™s how people feel, how long do you isolate your horse for though ?


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## catkin (10 February 2019)

DabDab said:



			Presumably then the nhs spends a ton of money vaccinating vulnerable people against flu every because they just have too much money to know what to do with...
		
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and businesses in many industries will PAY for key personnel to have flu jabs if they are not covered by the NHS scheme. 

The human flu jab last year was a problem because the flu strain had changed and was not covered  by the vaccs - just like the concerns now about equine flu


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## Mule (10 February 2019)

I know the flu vaccine is sometimes recommended for people who suffer from depression. Apparently a flu can trigger  depression so people who already suffer from depression are at risk of their condition worsening, if they contract the flu.


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## bonny (10 February 2019)

Be interesting to know how many people who vaccinate their horses against flu also get themselves vaccinated ......and how many of them would get a booster if they heard of an outbreak of flu somewhere ?  A lot of us are more paranoid about our horses than ourselves I suspect....just musing anyway


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## Mule (10 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Be interesting to know how many people who vaccinate their horses against flu also get themselves vaccinated ......and how many of them would get a booster if they heard of an outbreak of flu somewhere ?  A lot of us are more paranoid about our horses than ourselves I suspect....just musing anyway
		
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I've never been vaccinated against the flu, but afaik in humans, age and current health status determine whether vaccination is advisable. I'd imagine my GP would suggest it, if she thought it was advisable.


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## Dave's Mam (10 February 2019)

Someone's got their Arguing Pants on this weekend.


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## Amymay (10 February 2019)

4 new cases in vaccinated TB's reported just now on BBC.


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## Shooting Star (10 February 2019)

amymay said:



			4 new cases in vaccinated TB's reported just now on BBC.
		
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Hmm, not great - tricky decision for the BHA tomorrow and a busy one for the AHT too Iâ€™m guessing.


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## popsdosh (11 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Thatâ€™s just patronising, you have no way of knowing my medical history or the history of those close to me......my point was that personal stories are just that, they are evidence of nothing.
		
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Really Bonny your understanding of proper Flu ,not the one most of the population skive off with is so poor .
Google 1918 flu epidemic and do some research about the devastating effects . It infected 500 million and killed an estimated up to 10% of those infected so a bit worse than a cold. Well for those that died!


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## Elf On A Shelf (11 February 2019)

4 new horses on Simon Chrisfords yard have tested positive. Bollocks.


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## PeterNatt (11 February 2019)

Please see my post:

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/...-february-2019-6-45-a-m.772674/#post-13938749


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## Tiddlypom (11 February 2019)

EKW said:



			4 new horses on Simon Chrisfords yard have tested positive. Bollocks.
		
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Bollocks indeed .


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## ester (11 February 2019)

meleeka said:



			So presumably still competition horses? Iâ€™m just trying to work out accurate the monitoring is if itâ€™s not a notifyable disease. Iâ€™m quite sure that the last horse I knew of that had it wasnâ€™t reported to anyone above the vet that treated it. (This was a few years ago).
		
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No, all horses? I donâ€™t think I indicated comp horses?

Itâ€™s part of the surveillance they makes up the recommendations of what strains should go into vaccine, all horses matter for that.

Which is why the AHT pdf mentions OIE recommendations.


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## ester (11 February 2019)

Bonny you really do need to go off and do some reading to better your understanding.

As stated there are specific reasons the current human flu vaccination has a lower efficacy if you had looked into that properly.

You asked if people were worried about getting flu themselves and when people said hell yeah you berate them for using personal experiences.

I am not using personal experiences I am using my professional knowledge as a molecular microbiologist who has previously been involved in designing rapid tests for respiratory panels that include influenza, (tests that anyone can do and get a result in an hour) because it is that important to get a diagnosis rapidly.


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## DabDab (11 February 2019)

Nope, sorry ester, can't imagine that it was really important... You must've just been bored


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## ycbm (11 February 2019)

mule said:



			I've never been vaccinated against the flu, but afaik in humans, age and current health status determine whether vaccination is advisable. I'd imagine my GP would suggest it, if she thought it was advisable.
		
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Current health status only determines whether the NHS will pay for it, not whether it's advisable. The  NHS decision is based only on what it will cost the NHS if not done, compared to the cost of vaccinating tens of millions of people.  I'm sure your GP would approve of you paying for it yourself, unless you have a rare condition which means you definitely shouldn't have it.

In the horse world, of course, the cost is born by the keeper of the horse, so the decision is a no brainer for any horse that leaves home and many that don't.


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## MotherOfChickens (11 February 2019)

actually, some flu strains will kill healthy adults-it puts the immune system into overdrive and paradoxically, the healthier you are the harder it hits. and flu doesnt really feel like a bad cold-even a really bad head cold, its quite different.


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## PapaverFollis (11 February 2019)

I've paid for my own flu vaccination many times. Yes I'm as concerned about me getting flu as about my horse getting flu. The only difference being is no-one paying for my upkeep does so on the basis of my athletic ability... which is a good job really!


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## whiteflower (11 February 2019)

I just read the BBC report that states the 4 new cases in Newmarket were vaccinated within 6 months. My vets are all saying revaccinate if not done within 6 months so was hoping that would offer a significant benefit over those vaccinated within the year ? Ester can you help with that ?


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## ester (11 February 2019)

I donâ€™t think itâ€™s quantifiable as the numbers of vaccinated and infected are small to determine â€˜signifcantâ€™ As opposed to it being the only thing they can offer currently. With the sequencing it should be clearer as to whether some protection is being conferred or not. Iâ€™ve not had a chance to look to see when we should expect that.


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## whiteflower (11 February 2019)

ester said:



			I donâ€™t think itâ€™s quantifiable as the numbers of vaccinated and infected are small to determine â€˜signifcantâ€™ As opposed to it being the only thing they can offer currently. With the sequencing it should be clearer as to whether some protection is being conferred or not. Iâ€™ve not had a chance to look to see when we should expect that.
		
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Thanks ester, that was my guess that we basically need to wait for them to actually find out how useful the vaccine is going to be. It's just with the concensus being 6 months to redo them was best, I wanted to be sure but mine are only 7.5 months so I'll wait for more info I think


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## flying_high (11 February 2019)

whiteflower said:



			I just read the BBC report that states the 4 new cases in Newmarket were vaccinated within 6 months. My vets are all saying revaccinate if not done within 6 months so was hoping that would offer a significant benefit over those vaccinated within the year ? Ester can you help with that ?
		
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*Personally Iâ€™d base it on a combination of factors*



*How much traffic (moving horses, farriers, vets) at your yard?*

*How much nearby traffic e.g. neighbouring yards?*

*How close are you to the outbreak?*

*Were your horses definitely vacinated with strain that contains FC1?*

*How easily can you get a vet up for something else / someone else and avoid an additional call out?*

*Does your horse react to vaccines?*

*Can you afford it without it making other things tight? (vets state they are partly advising re vaccinating to increase the UK HERD IMMUNITY, so if you can afford it, it is being described as beneficial to ALL)*

*Are you looking to compete / do clinics in next few months? (As many places are requiring booster in last six months)*

*Are any of your horses higher risk e.g. v old, COPD etc. 

My horse was vaccinated in september, I have a vet coming for something else 25th February, I will get flu vaccine topped up then, as it outside six months on 6th February. The extra Â£42 cost for one horse is worth it for minor piece of mind, that the horses with right vaccine and with it administered in last six months seem to be the ones that recover fastest, with least complications. *

* As an aside, my vets have said this morning, there have been no outbreaks with the vaccine strain they use (though they acknowledge that it may be coincidence and not the protection).*


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## Tiddlypom (11 February 2019)

Whiteflower, none of the Simon Crisford four showed any signs of infection when swabbed on Friday, though it's not clear if any of them show symptoms now. They were jabbed less than 6 months ago.

If having a recent booster lessens the symptoms it's got to be worth doing.


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## whiteflower (11 February 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Whiteflower, none of the Simon Crisford four showed any signs of infection when swabbed on Friday, though it's not clear if any of them show symptoms now. They were jabbed less than 6 months ago.

If having a recent booster lessens the symptoms it's got to be worth doing.
		
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My question really I suppose was the difference between the amount of lessening of symptoms between 6 months and 7.5 months. Having looked at flying high list above I think they are good things to take into consideration.
Also it doesn't say if they are showing symptoms now as you correctly point out.
ETA - there is a lot of piecemeal info flying about. I'm hoping that there will be a statement by aht at some point soon clarifying the situation and the ongoing recommendations


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## flying_high (11 February 2019)

whiteflower said:



			My question really I suppose was the difference between the amount of lessening of symptoms between 6 months and 7.5 months. Having looked at flying high list above I think they are good things to take into consideration.
Also it doesn't say if they are showing symptoms now as you correctly point out.
ETA - there is a lot of piecemeal info flying about. I'm hoping that there will be a statement by aht at some point soon clarifying the situation and the ongoing recommendations
		
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I think it is to do with the graph of falling antibodies available after vaccine. The number peaks (I think a few weeks after vaccination) and then steadily drops until next annual vaccination date. The thinking is the antibodies are at a possibly high enough level until six months, and then lower than ideal in the face of the current outbreak. It isnt absolute, it is probably based on sensible guess work what is high enough, when looking at antibody level graphs, but it is the current universal thinknig and recommendations from all bodies at the moment. 



Lingfield vets have done this myth busting post = http://www.lingfieldequinevets.com/news/cases-blog-2/equine-flu-update


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## ester (11 February 2019)

FH you seem to be stuck in *bold*


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## SEL (11 February 2019)

MotherOfChickens said:



			actually, some flu strains will kill healthy adults-it puts the immune system into overdrive and paradoxically, the healthier you are the harder it hits. and flu doesnt really feel like a bad cold-even a really bad head cold, its quite different.
		
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I think I shook for 3 whole days when I had it in 2003. I was overseas & it was one of the most miserable fortnights of my life - I literally couldn't get out of bed. Temperature sky high and feeling like I was floating whenever I woke up! I flew home 2 weeks in and my parents picked me up from Heathrow shocked at how much weight I'd lost. I then spent another 2 weeks with zero energy and minimal appetite.

I think it did build up some immunity though because when the big flu outbreak (can't remember if it was swine or bird) happened in 2009 I got a really, really bad cold and felt awful - but given everyone at work went off in waves with proper flu and was being given anti-virals I got away lightly.

My 2 are just outside the 6 months so I'm keeping an eye on what the AHT are recommending and will go down the booster route if it seems to be escalating. No cases near us right now and we've got minimal movements on the yard anyway.


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## flying_high (11 February 2019)

ester said:



			FH you seem to be stuck in *bold*

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Sorry not sure what is going on. I tend to type in my work email program, and then quickly paste into the HHO forum browser. Dunno where bold came from.


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## Goldenstar (11 February 2019)

Itâ€™s very unfortunate that thereâ€™s four positive results in Newmarket but itâ€™s important to reflect that we have no base of how many horses would test positive outside an outbreak .
Loss if form with no clinical symptoms followed by a blood test showing higher than normal white cell count  will often result in the diagnosis of the â€˜virus â€˜ some these horses may well be vaccinated horses who have had contact with the flu virus .
Happily for me my horses have had the vaccination which seems to be the most effective against this strain of the virus they are all having extra jabs  on Wednesday I have opted to do them all.
I rode out this morning saw three lorryâ€™s and two trailers so normal amount of people out and about .
I will continue to ride out and am debating clinics with myself atm .


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## Mule (11 February 2019)

I got some boosters from the vet today. So my three are going to have an unpleasant surprise later hehe


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## whiteflower (11 February 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Whiteflower, none of the Simon Crisford four showed any signs of infection when swabbed on Friday, though it's not clear if any of them show symptoms now. They were jabbed less than 6 months ago.
		
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just seen update from aht which says the new ones that have it Suffolk are showing raised temperature and nasal discharge ðŸ˜”.


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## Tiddlypom (11 February 2019)

whiteflower said:



			just seen update from aht which says the new ones that have it Suffolk are showing raised temperature and nasal discharge ðŸ˜”.
		
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That's not the new Newmarket/Simon Crisford horses that were reported late last night, though, it's from the already affected non training premises in Suffolk. They are vaccinated 2yo TBs , but the AHT says that _'No details are yet available as to the specifics of the animalsâ€™ vaccination histories.' _

Necessarily we are being drip fed information at the mo, which is understandable but frustrating.


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## Lammy (11 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Iâ€™m not sure you should compare cancer to flu
		
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Not at all comparing. You stated that 27% of flu cases are asymptomatic, my point was a lot of killer diseases are also asymptomatic right before they kill you. 
Flu is a killer disease believe it or not.

And I know you keep asking for personal statements and then dismissing them but Iâ€™ll say it anyway...I have a mild autoimmune disease (coeliac) which means I get GP recommendation to vax against flu and pneumonia. I would consider myself a fit, healthy young person but flu will take advantage of that autoimmune disorder should I ever catch it. So yes I get the injection and also stay well away from people with the flu (not that you see them as theyâ€™re normally laid up).


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## whiteflower (11 February 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			That's not the new Newmarket/Simon Crisford horses that were reported late last night, though, it's from the already affected non training premises in Suffolk. They are vaccinated 2yo TBs , but the AHT says that _'No details are yet available as to the specifics of the animalsâ€™ vaccination histories.' _

Necessarily we are being drip fed information at the mo, which is understandable but frustrating.
		
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Yes it's quite confusing but I'm sure they are giving all the information they can. I have no idea who's horses are who just going from what the aht is saying. Having spoken to my vet at length today I'm happy with what course of action I want to take now. It's confusing with different authorities and the news putting bits of info out that don't tie up. Now I've decided what I'm doing I think I'll just put my ear muffs on unless there is any major change in advice !


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## Mule (11 February 2019)

Just injected the beasts. The first one didn't notice the second one did, but was more interested in eating.

I bribed the dramatic one with a mollasses lick. He gave a bit of a leap in the air and glared at the mollasses lick (apparently it was to blame), looked conflicted and then started licking it again.


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## bonny (11 February 2019)

Lammy said:



			Not at all comparing. You stated that 27% of flu cases are asymptomatic, my point was a lot of killer diseases are also asymptomatic right before they kill you.
Flu is a killer disease believe it or not.

And I know you keep asking for personal statements and then dismissing them but Iâ€™ll say it anyway...I have a mild autoimmune disease (coeliac) which means I get GP recommendation to vax against flu and pneumonia. I would consider myself a fit, healthy young person but flu will take advantage of that autoimmune disorder should I ever catch it. So yes I get the injection and also stay well away from people with the flu (not that you see them as theyâ€™re normally laid up).
		
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Iâ€™m not asking for personal statements, I said they were pointless. I was comparing peopleâ€™s attitudes to flu and vaccinations in themselves and their horses. Human flu is everywhere and yet I donâ€™t see everyone getting vaccinated or cancelling their plans ......the numbers even in over 65s where the vaccination is promoted and free ar dropping every year so why are so many people convinced their horses need extra boosters and that they are in real danger if they venture out ?


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## bonny (11 February 2019)

Do humans even get boosters every six months ?


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## Gloi (11 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Do humans even get boosters every six months ?
		
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No , because human flu is seasonal so they are needed at the start of the season, ie in the autumn ready for winter.


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## Auslander (11 February 2019)

For Gods Sake Bonny - give it a rest now!


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## Pearlsasinger (11 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Personal accounts are just that ! I could just as easily say I had flu last year, felt rough for a couple of days and then was fine.  Apparently 20% of people who would test positive for flu have no symptoms at all......non of this proves anything. How do you know when what feels like bad cold is actually flu ?
		
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If you don't know the difference between flu and a bad cold, you have never had flu!


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## Meredith (11 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Iâ€™m not asking for personal statements, I said they were pointless. I was comparing peopleâ€™s attitudes to flu and vaccinations in themselves and their horses. Human flu is everywhere and yet I donâ€™t see everyone getting vaccinated or cancelling their plans ......the numbers even in over 65s where the vaccination is promoted and free ar dropping every year so why are so many people convinced their horses need extra boosters and that they are in real danger if they venture out ?
		
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Why is a personal statement pointless? All statistics are surely a collection of personal statements.

 Perhaps you havenâ€™t visited your local doctorâ€™s surgery recently. Mine has notices reminding everyone to have their flu jabs from autumn time. Special weekly clinics are held to vaccinate everyone. You wonâ€™t see people with flu. They will probably be in bed.

 As an aside my mother was born not long after the 1918 epidemic and she remembers being told how frightened everyone was and they did not have any vaccine then.


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## Rowreach (11 February 2019)

A couple of months ago, a nearby town was gridlocked for several hours (made the national news!) because of the big queue of people waiting for their flu jab, spilling out onto the main street 

I've had flu twice, and both times I felt so ill and delirious that I would happily have died there and then.  OH has had it twice and been hospitalised both times (he is vaccinated against everything but works in the sort of places where you pick up random strains of nasty things).

I wouldn't have shared my personal experiences obviously, but something(one) made me feel I had to ...


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## ester (11 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Do you worry as much for yourself catching flu?
		
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You literally asked this then said people's answers were pointless


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## Elf On A Shelf (11 February 2019)

I've never had flu and I hope to god I don't ever get it! I've had lingering colds but never flu and I think I am getting another cold now. My jaw is really sore and isn't opening as wide as it should without pain. In a way that's a good thing! Lol! My new diet for the week consists only of things that I can fit through a 1cm gap and chew


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## bonny (11 February 2019)

ester said:



			You literally asked this then said people's answers were pointless 

Click to expand...

Ok then, Iâ€™ll put it a different way, how many of you are vaccinated against flu and how many alter your lives in case you come into contact with it ?


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## Mule (11 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Ok then, Iâ€™ll put it a different way, how many of you are vaccinated against flu and how many alter your lives in case you come into contact with it ?
		
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I'm not vaccinated and I will avoid people who have it.


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## ester (11 February 2019)

As stated previously I pay for a vaccination annually, whether I alter my life depends on how well they guessed the circulating strains when they went into production.


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## Meredith (11 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Ok then, Iâ€™ll put it a different way, how many of you are vaccinated against flu and how many alter your lives in case you come into contact with it ?
		
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1) Yes for over 20 years.
2) Yes for over 20 years
Now my health is compromised do you think I would knowingly risk it ?


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## SEL (11 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Ok then, Iâ€™ll put it a different way, how many of you are vaccinated against flu and how many alter your lives in case you come into contact with it ?
		
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Me. I have another condition which means I am highly likely to be hospitalised with flu. I try hard to stay away from anyone who I know has bugs but I don't lock myself away during flu season.


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## Cortez (11 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Ok then, Iâ€™ll put it a different way, how many of you are vaccinated against flu and how many alter your lives in case you come into contact with it ?
		
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I don't know why any of us bother answering your posts, but here goes:

Yes, I am vaccinated for flu, my OH is vaccinated (over 65) and my elderly father is vaccinated (nearly 90). I actively try to avoid people and places where flu is present. I have several friends who work in hospitals; they are all vaccinated.


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## Pearlsasinger (11 February 2019)

Several years ago, there were 5 of us, all adults, living here.  We all got flu but fortunately consecutively, rather than concurrently. I was the last one to get it, went back to school for the first day of the Spring term and then  had 2 weeks off work.  I can remember, when I was well enough to help with the horses, I was only able to carry one slice of a small hay bale across the yard to the stables, rather than carrying the whole bale as would have been normal practice.  That was after spending 3 or 4 days doing nothing, I was still very tired after a day at work for months.  No, I don't have a flu vaccine but that is because of a previous bad experience.


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## DabDab (11 February 2019)

Yes I am vaccinated for flu through work. As is my OH, and my parents are vaccinated through NHS (age).
So that's all the people I habitually come in contact with, no I don't actively avoid others, but neither do I pop round for tea with someone who is ill


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## Tiddlypom (11 February 2019)

Meredith said:



			1) Yes for over 20 years.
2) Yes for over 20 years
Now my health is compromised do you think I would knowingly risk it ?
		
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Ditto me.


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## Gloi (11 February 2019)

I had flu about 40 years ago. I remember being out on Saturday evening and feeling bad and having to ring my dad to take me home. I went to bed when I got home and the next thing I remember it was Tuesday. I was off work for 3 weeks but it was far longer than that before I was back to anything like normal. I have a vaccination every year and avoid as best I can going anywhere near ill people though the problem with flu is that you are infectious in the period just before you get really ill.


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## Clodagh (11 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Ok, I think a lot of people who are ill with a virus think they have flu, without testing itâ€™s impossible to know, without being in someoneâ€™s shoes you donâ€™t know how bad they feel anyway. No, I donâ€™t believe healthy horses die from flu, Iâ€™m not saying they never have but I think itâ€™s very unlikely. And no, I donâ€™t think cancelling hunting, shows and racing for a few days will achieve anything, Iâ€™m hardly alone in thinking that !
		
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Bonny, the fact you are worried about missing Cheltenham is colouring your entire view of this outbreak. As someone who cares for several elderly family members I can tell you they all have thier flu jabs. So do younger immune compromised people. some pay, some get it on the NHS. All avoid people with flue or colds or norovirus.


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## Tiddlypom (11 February 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Yes, absolutely, at least whilst the whole situation re the current efficacy (or lack of) of different makes of vaccines is established.

The Cheshire Hunt, in whose country McCains racing yard is situated, have already, quite rightly, cancelled tomorrow's and Tuesday's meets.
		
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I spoke too soon. They are hunting tomorrow, 12 miles from McCains yard.


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## ester (11 February 2019)

wow


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## ycbm (11 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Ok then, Iâ€™ll put it a different way, how many of you are vaccinated against flu
		
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I pay for vaccination.




			and how many alter your lives in case you come into contact with it ?
		
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This is a pointless question in the context of this discussion. It is difficult to change your life to avoid exposure to flu. It is simple to do the same for your horse.


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## Tiddlypom (11 February 2019)

ester said:



			wow 

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I may have called them a variety of very rude names when I found out. I'm not particularly surprised though.


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## Goldenstar (11 February 2019)

Auslander said:



			For Gods Sake Bonny - give it a rest now!
		
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Leave her be itâ€™s her energy to waste .


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## ihatework (11 February 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			I spoke too soon. They are hunting tomorrow, 12 miles from McCains yard.
		
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Woah, that is irresponsible


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## Goldenstar (11 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Personal accounts are just that ! I could just as easily say I had flu last year, felt rough for a couple of days and then was fine.  Apparently 20% of people who would test positive for flu have no symptoms at all......non of this proves anything. How do you know when what feels like bad cold is actually flu ?
		
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Well the snakes writhing out the ceiling and my inability to raise my head from the pillow where clues .
You know when you have flu .


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## Lammy (11 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Iâ€™m not asking for personal statements, I said they were pointless. I was comparing peopleâ€™s attitudes to flu and vaccinations in themselves and their horses. Human flu is everywhere and yet I donâ€™t see everyone getting vaccinated or cancelling their plans ......the numbers even in over 65s where the vaccination is promoted and free ar dropping every year so why are so many people convinced their horses need extra boosters and that they are in real danger if they venture out ?
		
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Human flu is not everywhere, that would be an epidemic. 

And as Ester pointed out you quite clearly asked a question and when people responded they donâ€™t count as theyâ€™re not one of the 27% who donâ€™t get symptoms, supposedly. 

Already told you I vaccinate myself and avoid people who have the flu which would be considered â€œaltering my lifeâ€. But of course that part has been ignored


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## Dave's Mam (11 February 2019)

mule said:



			Just injected the beasts. The first one didn't notice the second one did, but was more interested in eating.

I bribed the dramatic one with a mollasses lick. He gave a bit of a leap in the air and glared at the mollasses lick (apparently it was to blame), looked conflicted and then started licking it again.
		
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This did make me chuckle!


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## Mule (11 February 2019)

Dave's Mam said:



			This did make me chuckle!
		
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Me too


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## catkin (11 February 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			I spoke too soon. They are hunting tomorrow, 12 miles from McCains yard.
		
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how to make friends and influence people..............not  

how awful for everyone else


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## MotherOfChickens (11 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Ok then, Iâ€™ll put it a different way, how many of you are vaccinated against flu and how many alter your lives in case you come into contact with it ?
		
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my husband is because he's asthmatic, both his kids are because they are immunocompromised, his father and my mother are because they are elderly. I paid for my jag as did my work colleagues. Another work colleague who came back from Australia when they had their horrid outbreak tail end of 2017 waited a couple of weeks before going to see her new granddaughter because it was a really nasty strain. 
The farmer that lives next door to me went down with Aussie flu xmas eve 2017, was in hospital by Boxing Day and didn't come out until February-she then paid for a private nurse and walked with a frame for a couple of months and (by her own admission) wasn't completely over it until about October-she's a generally very healthy, strong woman in her 40s.

so yes, some people take it seriously-at some point you will have to admit that not everyone else can be wrong.


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## Goldenstar (11 February 2019)

I am sure how we got onto this but I get a free flu vacc because I have thyroid disease and I provide essential care to my parents .
I have had flu twice I never want to again


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## bonny (11 February 2019)

Just seen that racing is set to resume on Wednesday ......


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## Lyle (12 February 2019)

This is pretty horrifying that the efficacy of the vaccines is in total question. What a scary situation!!

I remember whe EI struck Australia in 2007. I was at a large 2DE in Victoria and there had been rumours flying around that horses in Centennial Park, Sydney were undergoing testing for EI. I remember trotting down the centre line to start my test, when the announcement came over that there were confirmed out breaks of EI, and at that point, the competition venue was in complete lock down.
We were locked down for the remainder of the day, and at 9pm that night we were given the option to go home, straight home, to private properties and quarantine there. Otherwise, stay and complete the competition, but potentially be locked down for an indefinite amount of time if an outbreak was detected. We went home 
It was rather incredible to watch the extent of the nation wide shut down of equestrian movement. Some poor competitors at a QLD competition were in lock down for weeks at the venue while EI ran its course.


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## MDB (12 February 2019)

I've had flu as a teenager which turned into pneumonia. And again in my 20's. I have never had the vaccine. I doubt I ever will. The US CDC government website states that it reduces your risk of catching flu by only 40 to 60%, and that is only in the years when they match the circulating viruses well. In those years that don't, it says there 'is little to no benefit'. A Rice University study last year estimated that the efficacy of this year's vaccine will be only 19%. I am not entirely convinced of the long term safety of vaccinating year after year for possibly decades.  I try to eat very healthily, little to no processed foods, make green juice almost daily, cook from fresh etc. I rarely catch a cold. Twice in 9 years. Although I did have a mild one this year already, but I was on the mend in 3 days. I don't vaccinate my horses for flu. But they live at home in the countryside and never come into contact with other horses.


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## Sandstone1 (12 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Just seen that racing is set to resume on Wednesday ......
		
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With strict checks in place according to Bbc news


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## lannerch (12 February 2019)

Sandstone1 said:



			With strict checks in place according to Bbc news
		
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bonny said:



			Just seen that racing is set to resume on Wednesday ......
		
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good news indeed I guess itâ€™s because the recent outbreak has no connection to racing in Newcastle, and no horse in Newcastle seems to have caught the virus from that day.
So the 6 month vaccination looks like it certainly helps. 

Makes vaccination even more important though, for the rest of us.


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## Tiddlypom (12 February 2019)

Last night's AHT update includes this info on the Simon Crisford horses:-

_All horses are vaccinated and the positive cases have been reported to be displaying no clinical signs to date._

I hope that anyone who goes hunting during this outbreak is required to have an up to date flu vaccination certificate inc a recent booster, as per competition requirements. Details to be checked prior to unboxing at the meet. I would hope that anyone keeping keeping their horses 1 mile away from an affected yard would stay at home (this is relevant to the Cheshire case).


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## Ambers Echo (12 February 2019)

Flu is vile, often kills and vaccinations for vulnerable people are essential. But I do think there is a big difference  in how we behave around human flu. My OH was hospitalised with suspected swine flu. At that time it never occurred to me that I and the kids should stay at home. Nor to my employers or the the school. I worked in a hospital! So that is the equivalent of the field mate of horse with active flu still going out which would outrage everyone. But it honestly never occurred to me to quarantine our family. Nor did anyone suggest that I should. I doubt very much I would have been allowed to not work even if I had wanted to. Nor to keep my kids off  school. 

Yet the situation with horses is that many people feel - contrary to the official guidance - that horses with no known exposure to any infection and no clinical signs all stay at home anyway.

I don't agree that this is about people being selfish, competition hungry etc. I think it is all about risk perception. Flu in the leisure horse population has been on the up for months. I have known about it and been more flu-aware and vigilant for ages. My sense of risk did not change when the racing ban came in, nor has it reduced now that racing is back  on. My view is that flu is a very low risk. And even though numbers are up they are still very low. And that a significant increase in a very low risk is still a very low risk. 

I am curious as to how others perceive the risk if they are currently not in an outbreak area but are staying at home anyway to be on the safe side. When are people going to feel safe going out again? Because flu is endemic. It isn't going away. So it won't ever be 'over'.


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## meleeka (12 February 2019)

Ambers Echo said:



			Flu is vile, often kills and vaccinations for vulnerable people are essential. But I do think there is a big difference  in how we behave around human flu. My OH was hospitalised with suspected swine flu. At that time it never occurred to me that I and the kids should stay at home. Nor to my employers or the the school. I worked in a hospital! So that is the equivalent of the field mate of horse with active flu still going out which would outrage everyone. But it honestly never occurred to me to quarantine our family. Nor did anyone suggest that I should. I doubt very much I would have been allowed to not work even if I had wanted to. Nor to keep my kids off  school.

Yet the situation with horses is that many people feel - contrary to the official guidance - that horses with no known exposure to any infection and no clinical signs all stay at home anyway.

I don't agree that this is about people being selfish, competition hungry etc. I think it is all about risk perception. Flu in the leisure horse population has been on the up for months. I have known about it and been more flu-aware and vigilant for ages. My sense of risk did not change when the racing ban came in, nor has it reduced now that racing is back  on. My view is that flu is a very low risk. And even though numbers are up they are still very low. And that a significant increase in a very low risk is still a very low risk.

I am curious as to how others perceive the risk if they are currently not in an outbreak area but are staying at home anyway to be on the safe side. When are people going to feel safe going out again? Because flu is endemic. It isn't going away. So it won't ever be 'over'.
		
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Absolutely agree.  If this had been a riding  school instead of a racing yard weâ€™d all be going about our business oblivious. People are having boosters then not believing that that will offer protection. Itâ€™s not the plague, itâ€™s flu, which horses wil continue to get (and vaccination ensures that when they do the symptoms are mild) .
Iâ€™m far more worried about the constant threat of strangles which we have had locally with fatal consequences.


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## MotherOfChickens (12 February 2019)

bonny said:



			Just seen that racing is set to resume on Wednesday ......
		
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well thats good news for the industry and your confirmation bias I expect.


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 February 2019)

MotherOfChickens said:



			well thats good news for the industry and your confirmation bias I expect.
		
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It ok! Cheltenham is safe! Because apparently that is the ONLY racing that matters!!! ðŸ™„


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## ester (12 February 2019)

Yes why exactly do you work the rest of the year?


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 February 2019)

ester said:



			Yes why exactly do you work the rest of the year? 

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Because we win National's instead ðŸ˜‰ðŸ˜‚


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## SEL (12 February 2019)

Ambers Echo said:



			Flu is vile, often kills and vaccinations for vulnerable people are essential. But I do think there is a big difference  in how we behave around human flu. My OH was hospitalised with suspected swine flu. At that time it never occurred to me that I and the kids should stay at home. Nor to my employers or the the school. I worked in a hospital! So that is the equivalent of the field mate of horse with active flu still going out which would outrage everyone. But it honestly never occurred to me to quarantine our family. Nor did anyone suggest that I should. I doubt very much I would have been allowed to not work even if I had wanted to. Nor to keep my kids off  school.

Yet the situation with horses is that many people feel - contrary to the official guidance - that horses with no known exposure to any infection and no clinical signs all stay at home anyway.

I don't agree that this is about people being selfish, competition hungry etc. I think it is all about risk perception. Flu in the leisure horse population has been on the up for months. I have known about it and been more flu-aware and vigilant for ages. My sense of risk did not change when the racing ban came in, nor has it reduced now that racing is back  on. My view is that flu is a very low risk. And even though numbers are up they are still very low. And that a significant increase in a very low risk is still a very low risk.

I am curious as to how others perceive the risk if they are currently not in an outbreak area but are staying at home anyway to be on the safe side. When are people going to feel safe going out again? Because flu is endemic. It isn't going away. So it won't ever be 'over'.
		
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My partner was working on the emergency planning committee at the time of swine flu and it was discussed whether or not people should stay at home. The science opinion was that people just wouldn't quarantine themselves or their family so there was no point in saying they should!!


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## lannerch (12 February 2019)

https://bef.co.uk/News-Detail.aspx?news=response-to-resumption-of-racing


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## ycbm (12 February 2019)

meleeka said:



			Iâ€™m far more worried about the constant threat of strangles which we have had locally with fatal consequences.
		
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I think there's an awful lot of fear raised about strangles just by having such a nasty name. A bit like ringworm. A livery and competitive yard that my friend was on had it. No horses were quarantined. Infected horses were turned out as usual. They continued with their monthly shows. It didn't create an epidemic in the area, all that happened was that a few of the liveries got a mild cold.

Like flu, it can be fatal to the immune compromised. But because it spreads by touch it's easier to contain than flu. Of course it's dreadful if it's your horse which has an undeveloped or compromised immune system and gets badly affected.

My impression, though,  is that most horses have probably been exposed at some time and are largely immune.

I wish we had a vaccine, but mutated flu breaking through into vaccinated horses worries me at least as much  as strangles, if not more.


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## Cortez (12 February 2019)

There is a strangles vaccine, all of my horses were vaccinated in the US. I don't know why it's not been approved for use over here.


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## ycbm (12 February 2019)

It's supposed not to be very effective, I thought?


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## ester (12 February 2019)

Yes there were issue with side effects and efficacy IIRC. 

The frequent comparison of flu with strangles is doing my nut a bit. Todays special was along the lines of why are people fussing and treating as if it were as bad as it were strangles. It's good ignoring practice for me I suppose.


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## ycbm (12 February 2019)

ester said:



			Yes there were issue with side effects and efficacy IIRC.

The frequent comparison of flu with strangles is doing my nut a bit. Todays special was along the lines of why are people fussing and treating as if it were as bad as it were strangles. It's good ignoring practice for me I suppose.
		
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If there was a vaccine for both but you were only allowed one or the other, I'd choose the flu one over the strangles one. How about you, Ester?


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## ester (12 February 2019)

yup


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## Tiddlypom (12 February 2019)

I need to make a correction. There IS a meet today in Cheshire 12 miles from the McCain yard, but it is reported as being a pack other than the Cheshire Hunt.

So apologies to the Cheshire Hunt. I still think that the other pack are selfish dicks, though.


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## Goldenstar (13 February 2019)

Cortez said:



			There is a strangles vaccine, all of my horses were vaccinated in the US. I don't know why it's not been approved for use over here.
		
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The side effects where pretty Horrific when the vaccine came out here I gave it six four out of six where ill.
Two very ill one one so ill he just missed being hospitalised I had the vet here for two hours in the middle of the night 
The drug company paid all the bills .



ester said:



			yup
		
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Itâ€™s a no brainer if you vaccinate for one choose flu .


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## tristar (13 February 2019)

i would vaccinate for strangles  no point really


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## tristar (13 February 2019)

should read i do not vaccinate for strangles


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## Mule (13 February 2019)

I had an undiagnosed cushings horse that developed it. I think it was brought in to the herd by the horse that I compete. I remember he had been lethargic for a couple of days a few months earlier.

She was the only horse that became ill and despite her immune system she recovered. So it's definitely not comparable to flu. I'd imagine she wouldn't have recovered from flu.


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## conniegirl (13 February 2019)

ycbm said:



			Hell yes!  I can only assume you've never had a real case. I've had it at 14 and again last year 45 years later.  Both times it wiped me out for weeks. My dose last year has left me with permanently reduced lung capacity and I now have an inhaler.

For a horse with a much longer, deeper airway, it can easily be career, or even life,  ending.
		
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Ditto this!
I had flu in my second year of Uni, I was a fit, healthy 19 year old with a good immune system. It resulted in an ITU stay, my parents abandoning their holiday in newzealand and getting emergency flights back to the UK as I was in such bad condition, 3 months off Uni (having to resit the year as I'd missed too much), permanent effects on my lungs so that I now have to take daily inhalers.

I wasn't vaccinated against flu at he time but you can bet your behind that I've had the flu vaccine every year since then, you can get the flu vaccine privately without a GP prescription for Â£7.



bonny said:



			Ok then, Iâ€™ll put it a different way, how many of you are vaccinated against flu and how many alter your lives in case you come into contact with it ?
		
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as stated above, yes I'm vaccinated, yes I would actively avoid anyone showing flu symptoms. Also if I were showing symptoms that may be flu I would not be leaving my house in order to protect those who are immune compromised.
Both my parents are vaccinated against flu (my mother is a nurse and my father is because he pays for it privately)
My sister and brother both pay privately for the flu vaccine.
My husband is vaccinated because the company he works for insists on it and pays for all their employees to be vaccinated.

If you have never had flu then you cannot know just how different flu is to a heavy cold.


I also had all my normal childhood vaccines and a good few that the general population of the UK won't have had due to my mothers expat wanderings during my childhood (i have lived in at least 10 different countries).
My brother is deadly allergic to the base that the whooping cough vaccine is in so we are very very aware of how herd immunity works as we have no other option than to rely on herd immunity for him. If whooping cough were going round then yes all of us including him would drastically change our lifestyle to avoid any contact with it,


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## marotelle (13 February 2019)

EKW said:



			It's ok we can still hop over to France to race! They are still happy to welcome us lol!
		
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That doesn't sourd very responsable,we are Also in the breeding season or at least as far as the thouroublood world is concerned ,a little unfair for the foals and broodmares.I would  not send a mare over from the continent if she or her progeny would be in danger of catching the desease.....


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## Elf On A Shelf (13 February 2019)

marotelle said:



			That doesn't sourd very responsable,we are Also in the breeding season or at least as far as the thouroublood world is concerned ,a little unfair for the foals and broodmares.I would  not send a mare over from the continent if she or her progeny would be in danger of catching the desease.....
		
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What I said was very tongue in cheek! 

France is happy to let us head over and race with a clean swab and bill of health, they have flu over there, they arent denying it. They said the same to the competative sports horse world. Thats their choice. As it is of anyone who wishes to travel. 

I personally wouldn't just now but many do.


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## sywell (13 February 2019)

Louby said:



			Im with you on this but sadly unless others follow suit it will be difficult to contain the virus.  Im not saying I think we should panic or go into lockdown but it would be nice for people to be sensible and considerate to fellow liveries who are happy to miss a few events until its under control.  From what Ive read it seems checking passports at events/clinics etc is pointless as it appears vaccinated horses have caught the new flu virus too.
		
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We were advised to do annual vaccs then 6 monthly but  even in high bio security racing yards horses who have been vacc with the correct vaccination have got flu. So is 6 monthly with H3N8 helping the virus develop a new strand of virus.


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## ester (13 February 2019)

No not really, that isn't how viral 'resistance' works, especially when so much of the herd is not vaccinated.


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