# Hunt in France 2010 with FREEDOM



## Judgemental (3 November 2010)

Why do we, the British, still have to continue to endure this oppression of not being allowed to hunt?

Whilst there is a clear invasion of privacy by former hunt saboteurs/agent provocateurs watching and filming every move of those trail hunting. 

Whereas in France they freely hunt boar, stag and occasionally foxes.

"For example, you will hear the hunting horns will ring out their chorus across the courtyard of an old Cistercian abbey in the heart of Burgundy before any hunt. At the feast of St Hubertus - the patron saint of hunting. Before any hunt can begin, there is an outdoor mass of thanksgiving".


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## Amymay (3 November 2010)

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## Judgemental (3 November 2010)

amymay said:














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*Yet another Anti, on the other hand perhaps it looks like the unbiquitous saboteur*


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## Judgemental (3 November 2010)

Why do we, the British, still have to continue to endure this oppression of not being allowed to hunt?

Whilst there is a clear invasion of privacy by former hunt saboteurs/agent provocateurs watching and filming every move of those trail hunting. 

Whereas in France they freely hunt boar, stag and occasionally foxes.

"For example, you will hear the hunting horns will ring out their chorus across the courtyard of an old Cistercian abbey in the heart of Burgundy before any hunt. At the feast of St Hubertus - the patron saint of hunting. Before any hunt can begin, there is an outdoor mass of thanksgiving".


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## rosie fronfelen (3 November 2010)

Judgemental said:



*Yet another Anti, on the other hand perhaps it looks like the unbiquitous saboteur*

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the large emoticon shows that Amymay is totally bored with you! Anyway, why not go to France and stay there?


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## Paddydou (3 November 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			the large emoticon shows that Amymay is totally bored with you! Anyway, why not go to France and stay there?
		
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What have you ot against the French? Besides I hear hunting is totally different over there and much more "contained" in their areas compared to here. 

Ignore it Rosie. It will only wind you up...!


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## Judgemental (3 November 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			the large emoticon shows that Amymay is totally bored with you! Anyway, why not go to France and stay there?
		
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Rosie, I always feel I have been given the Hunt Button when you are one of the first to post on a new thread I have started.

As always, you are quick to honour me with the cutting whip. Giving me a good thrashing to remind me who is the boss!  

When I wrote that thread, I said to myself "I bet Rosie tells me to push off to France - yet again".

I suppose if I were there and I could be, I could start writing about the fantastic hunts (with second horses) I was having after the boar & stag and how when it comes to the kill, the boar is 'served'. 

Then everybody here would be jealous and complain I was just showing off about how lucky I was to enjoy real hunting, in country were the government actually encourages La Chasse - I always like the fact hunting is in the female in France.

But no matter Rosie, we shall overcome the little local difficulty concerning the Hunting Act 2004, even if the politicos are dragging their feet on the subject.

Amymay is a rabid Anti so her opinion is neither here nor there.


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## Judgemental (3 November 2010)

Paddydou said:



			What have you ot against the French? Besides I hear hunting is totally different over there and much more "contained" in their areas compared to here. 

Ignore it Rosie. It will only wind you up...!
		
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Ah Paddy, step into my office a moment if you will, I need a word with you.

I am not entirely sure about your hunting credentials, are you one of us, a traditionalist? Or one of these 'windy' ones, standing on the sidelines?

I noted you have a friend who is an Anti - apart with from the fact one is judged by the company one keeps, what have you done to convert her to the faith, in order to show your solidarity with the greater glory of hunting?

Forgive me it might be a him you have to convert and not a her?


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## Amymay (3 November 2010)

Amymay is a rabid Anti so her opinion is neither here nor there.
		
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Wrong and wrong.


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## Amymay (3 November 2010)

(Paddy) I noted you have a friend who is an Anti
		
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And that is a problem because........???????


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## Judgemental (3 November 2010)

amymay said:



			Wrong and wrong.
		
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Then your attitude is completly wrong because our friends the French (bearing in mind the defence pact Prime Minister Cameron and Pesident Sarkosy signed yesterday in a bonding of extreme entent cordial).

They are hunting's ally in Europe, the cornerstone that will help us to get rid of the anti-hunting enemy.


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## Amymay (3 November 2010)

Then your attitude is completly wrong
		
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What attitude?  You are boring, predictable and above all such a terrible representative of the sport you purport to love so much.

And the French are absolutely no ally of ours in terms of hunting - as their opinion (apparently like mine) is worth nothing when it comes to our government (which ever one happens to be in power).

You are deluded, out of date and out of touch.


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## DragonSlayer (3 November 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Why do we, the British, still have to continue to endure this oppression of not being allowed to hunt?

Whilst there is a clear invasion of privacy by former hunt saboteurs/agent provocateurs watching and filming every move of those trail hunting. 

Whereas in France they freely hunt boar, stag and occasionally foxes.

"For example, you will hear the hunting horns will ring out their chorus across the courtyard of an old Cistercian abbey in the heart of Burgundy before any hunt. At the feast of St Hubertus - the patron saint of hunting. Before any hunt can begin, there is an outdoor mass of thanksgiving".
		
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I guess we just have to hope that at some point, someone will decide that the ban can be overturned and things can return to normal. But I can bet that those opposing it will up their antics if it DOES become legal again....


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## Paddydou (3 November 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Ah Paddy, step into my office a moment if you will, I need a word with you.

I am not entirely sure about your hunting credentials, are you one of us, a traditionalist? Or one of these 'windy' ones, standing on the sidelines?

I noted you have a friend who is an Anti - apart with from the fact one is judged by the company one keeps, what have you done to convert her to the faith, in order to show your solidarity with the greater glory of hunting?

Forgive me it might be a him you have to convert and not a her?
		
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I would love to loose my rag with you JM but I actually feel very sorry for you.

I have friends that are pro and anti hunting. I have friends who are black white and all maner of inbetween. I have friends who are dentists, doctors, lawyers, binmen, cleaners, finacial advisors, bank managers... My friends are considered as such for their qualities and ability to stand by their beliefs whether I choose to follow the same or not.

Your recent tirades, accusations and bullying once again shows me that you are not a dangerous man at all. Just a very sad, lonely one who needs help. I feel ashamed that I may have been marching alongside you. I hope that you were not there. You bring disrepute to those who hunt and it is because of your very attitude that so many are opposing the repeal as you try to bully and harrass them into being on your side. Nothing but a bully and the very thing many dispise about hunting.

I may be on your side JM but I am not your friend and I am not particularly proud to associate with you in any shape or fashion.

Take a deep breath dear boy and visit your doctor. 

Amymay - leave him be. Just because he hunts doesn't mean you have to be his friend. Just as you don't have to boosom buddies with everyone that likes Italian food! I don't think the French would have him... Aparently they have a wonderful time and don't suffer fools gladly...


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## Judgemental (3 November 2010)

Paddydou said:



			I would love to loose my rag with you JM but I actually feel very sorry for you.

I have friends that are pro and anti hunting. I have friends who are black white and all maner of inbetween. I have friends who are dentists, doctors, lawyers, binmen, cleaners, finacial advisors, bank managers... My friends are considered as such for their qualities and ability to stand by their beliefs whether I choose to follow the same or not.

Your recent tirades, accusations and bullying once again shows me that you are not a dangerous man at all. Just a very sad, lonely one who needs help. I feel ashamed that I may have been marching alongside you. I hope that you were not there. You bring disrepute to those who hunt and it is because of your very attitude that so many are opposing the repeal as you try to bully and harrass them into being on your side. Nothing but a bully and the very thing many dispise about hunting.

I may be on your side JM but I am not your friend and I am not particularly proud to associate with you in any shape or fashion.

Take a deep breath dear boy and visit your doctor. 

Amymay - leave him be. Just because he hunts doesn't mean you have to be his friend. Just as you don't have to boosom buddies with everyone that likes Italian food! I don't think the French would have him... Aparently they have a wonderful time and don't suffer fools gladly...
		
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All I have pointed out in this new thread is that the French hunt without let or hinderance from their government - what's wrong with that? Oh and they bless the huntsmen/women and hounds in church before the start of most hunts - how very civilised.

What else have I said, apart the daily whipping from Rosie, which in truth, I rather enjoy.  

I make no secret of the fact I am a traditionalist.

Hopefully hunting a fox for a 5/6 mile point and taking on 25 or 30 hedges on bold Irish hunter. 

In the alternative the stag for 10/15 miles.

I am not going to hide my light under a bushel, that's the hunting I wish to see restored and I aint going to go for any lilly livered half way house! Nor am I prepared to disguise the fact to all these Sabs, Antis and Agent Provocateurs.

May be there are those who post on this forum who like to think they hunt - when trail hunting, i.e. what is nothing better than a quiet predictable hack around the countryside. If that's their bag, fine. But don't expect me to support that as the 'Final Solution'.


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## Simsar (3 November 2010)

Judgemental said:



			All I have pointed out in this new thread is that the French hunt without let or hinderance from their government - what's wrong with that.

I make no secret of the fact I am a traditionalist.  Me too!
Hopefully hunting a fox for a 5/6 mile point and taking in 25 or 30 hedges.  Maybe in the past! not now to old me not JMIn the alternative the stag for 10/15 miles.

I am not going to hide my light under a bushel, that's the hunting I wish to see restored and I aint going to go for any lilly livered half way house! Nor am I prepared to disguise the fact to all these Sabs, Antis and Agent Provocateurs. Hear hear
May be there are those who post on this forum who like to think they hunt - when trail hunting, i.e. what is nothing better than a quiet predictable hack around the countryside. If that's their bag, fine. But don't expect me to support that as the 'Final Solution'.
		
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For what it's worth 100% agree with that.


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## Maesfen (3 November 2010)

Isn't that what Willie Poole did, thinking the grass was greener, when actually he's been quite disappointed at how things have changed over there as well?


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## Judgemental (3 November 2010)

Maesfen said:



			Isn't that what Willie Poole did, thinking the grass was greener, when actually he's been quite disappointed at how things have changed over there as well?
		
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Yes you are right. I know Willie extremely well and I am surprised he stayed.

A great hunting man who speaks him mind and leaves nobody in any doubt as to his views. I like to think I have the same attitude!

Personally, I would just be a visitor to the French hunting. Having the best of the Deer and the Boar. I don't think I would entertain hunting the fox in France.

_By the way I am thinking of changing my name on this forum from JM to Agent Provocateur - what do you all think?_


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## Paddydou (3 November 2010)

Simsar said:



			For what it's worth 100% agree with that.
		
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I may agree with it Simsar but I have no wish to discuss such things with someone who is prepared to hurl insults at all and sundry because he feels like it that day. His behaviour of late has left much to be desired and while we may agree on many things I am afriad I can not condone the way in which he has bullied and antagonised both pro and anti hunt supporters recently. I am frankly embarrassed by his behaviour. 

Would be nice to spend time watching the hounds work again though. Before and after the ban I have always enjoyed watching them go. Big sigh. Its their voices at full cry that makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand on end... Another big sigh.


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## Judgemental (3 November 2010)

Paddydou said:



			I may agree with it Simsar but I have no wish to discuss such things with someone who is prepared to hurl insults at all and sundry because he feels like it that day. His behaviour of late has left much to be desired and while we may agree on many things I am afriad I can not condone the way in which he has bullied and antagonised both pro and anti hunt supporters recently. I am frankly embarrassed by his behaviour. 

Would be nice to spend time watching the hounds work again though. Before and after the ban I have always enjoyed watching them go. Big sigh. Its their voices at full cry that makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand on end... Another big sigh.
		
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Who have I insulted, because I have never once on this Forum knowingly insulted anybody personally? 

If calling or suggestign somebody an Anti if they disagree with me is not in my world an insult.

If anybody who supports the cause feels insulted in any way I would unreservedly apologise.

As for those against hunting - could not give a damn - they have had their innings and now is the time they left the field and we came back into bat!

You suggested I bullied - don't you feel bullied by the Hunting Act 2004?


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## Paddydou (3 November 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Who I have insulted, because I have never once on this Forum knowingly insulted anybody personally. 

If calling or suggestign somebody an Anti if they disagree with me is not in my world an insult.

If anybody feels insulted in any way I would unreservedly apologise.
		
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I dispair of you I really do. Thank God for TFC.

The pills must be working today.


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## rosie fronfelen (3 November 2010)

Paddydou, i am of the same opinion as you, he is a sad person and needs help as he seems to think that most people are now antis,so he is showing signs of delusion. I have many anti friends who are decent people( not scum!) we just dont discuss hunting.


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## Jim Moriarty (3 November 2010)

amymay said:



			You are deluded, out of date and out of touch.
		
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You neglected to add 'out to lunch'.


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## Jim Moriarty (3 November 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Yes you are right. I know Willie extremely well and I am surprised he stayed.
		
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I can think of one excellent reason why he chose to stay...


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## posie_honey (3 November 2010)

but they eat snails.... its just wrong....


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## Jim Moriarty (3 November 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Who have I insulted, because I have never once on this Forum knowingly insulted anybody personally? 

If calling or suggestign somebody an Anti if they disagree with me is not in my world an insult.
		
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You're cover's slipping...


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## rosie fronfelen (3 November 2010)

JM still has AH on his mind, talking of the" final solution"- get a grip man, or get some happy pills, i can recommend some!!


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## Paddydou (3 November 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			JM still has AH on his mind, talking of the" final solution"- get a grip man, or get some happy pills, i can recommend some!!
		
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What I find so terribly sad is that here is someone who is clearly passionate about Hunting who is more than happy to allow the perception that anyone not as passionate is clearly a balaclava wearing anti in disguise... Even worse he claims to speak for teh majority and drum up support for such tactics! Its just an enormous disapointment. 

As for hunting in Frace as I understand it they have their own problems with lack of space more so than we do here even with our restrictions. 

Each nation will encounter its own problems. Posie we eat cows which to some would be wrong! Keep an open mind (and a closed mouth if you are not willing to try) at the dinner table!


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## posie_honey (3 November 2010)

Paddydou said:



			Posie we eat cows which to some would be wrong! Keep an open mind (and a closed mouth if you are not willing to try) at the dinner table!
		
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don't worry - i've eaten snails  and horse for that matter - very nice it was too

i've been there and got the t-shirt with the JM arguments so just couldn't be bothered to reply with something sensible - esp as you are so eloquently stating exactly what i'd so less-eloquently type


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## Paddydou (3 November 2010)

posie_honey said:



			don't worry - i've eaten snails  and horse for that matter - very nice it was too

i've been there and got the t-shirt with the JM arguments so just couldn't be bothered to reply with something sensible - esp as you are so eloquently stating exactly what i'd so less-eloquently type 

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Not had snails and found horse to be a touch strong in flavour for me but then I am not a great one for meat at any rate!

Blimey - I have been eloquent! that would be a first!


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## rosie fronfelen (3 November 2010)

the thought of snails, i know they are bred for eating, l'escargot, and eating both them and horsemeat repulses me,but i am a fussy about eating meat anyway.


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## Simsar (3 November 2010)

Semi veggie wait for it. xxx


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## rosie fronfelen (3 November 2010)

Simsar said:



			Semi veggie wait for it. xxx
		
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not really Simsar-being married to a welsh meat eater, lol, he eats anything and everything meatwise. I'm fussy about my beef,pork,mutton, dont like lamb- too pappy-and love liver and chicken, also pheasant as long as it hasn't been hung for too long!!!Am i about to start a debate, oh goodie!!!


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## Simsar (3 November 2010)

No was waiting for other reponses not you Rosie.

I love veal but that will start another, but absolute favourite is calves liver mash and onion gravy. Off to cupboard and fridge LOL!


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## rosie fronfelen (3 November 2010)

oh dear, i hate veal, poor babies- i must be a hopeless farmers wife!


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## Paddydou (3 November 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			oh dear, i hate veal, poor babies- i must be a hopeless farmers wife!
		
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Agh Roise don't worry about it! I couldn't even handle raw meat or carve a carcus - actually still can't do the carving bit but can jsut about do the dead bit as long as there are no bones.

I too am waiting for us to get lambasted as fluffy bunny balaclava wearing sabs! Hey ho! 

I love venison but its so rich I can only eat tiny little amounts! We have the most fantastic butchers near us. The puppies used to get liver cooked up for them every day but they knew that I couldn't cope with chopping it up so they would measure it out and get each days worth ready for me in a bag then I wouldn't have to touch it! They would also look out for me and bring it out so I didn't have to go in and smell the rest of the meat!! They are amazing in there!


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## Jim Moriarty (3 November 2010)

Simsar said:



			I love veal but that will start another...
		
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Partial to a bit of veal myself, and I wouldn't turn my nose up to pâté de foie gras either.

It's not popular to confess but, I have no qualms (nor morals according to some, I dare say) when it comes to food I'm afraid. Not exactly a gourmand, my wallet wouldn't stretch that far, but not far off over the years.


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## Paddydou (3 November 2010)

I will try anything to see if I like it, just a bit squemish when it comes to dead things! I blame my parents for allowing me to eat Monty. Mind we all went veggie for a while after that!!! There is somethings about eating your beloved pet that you saved from the brink of death that well just doesn't really sit well with my stomach even if he was very yummy!

I also don't like the way some foods feel in your mouth. I have a friend who can't eat anything "bouncy". If its going to ounce in her mouth she just can't do it mushrooms included!


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## JanetGeorge (3 November 2010)

Judgemental said:



			If calling or suggestign somebody an Anti if they disagree with me is not in my world an insult.

If anybody who supports the cause feels insulted in any way I would unreservedly apologise.
		
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Good!  You can start, then, by apologising to me!  Because I am definitely NOT an anti - and I disagree with you so regularly now it's becoming monotonous!

(Oh - and just for the record - I didn't work for the BFSS just in a 'professional' capacity - I started as a volunteer - for BELIEF in the cause and would have continued as a volunteer if I hadn't been offered the opportunity to do more good as an 'official' spokesman.)

I don't doubt your passion - but it was passionate idiots (on our side) who made it SO easy for the antis to get public support!  People who were SO convinced they were right that they ignored the writing on the wall until it was too late; people who insulted those who had genuinely held beliefs that hunting was 'cruel' - rather than trying to educate them in a courteous and sensible manner; people who invoked STUPID arguments - that were an embarrassment to those of us trying to educate the general public and the media!

And yes, I have friends (and relatives) who are anti.  Many of them I have managed to move - to either ambivalent - or pro - with INTELLIGENT argument!  (Including a couple of formerly very active antis!)

On THIS forum, JM, I think you've probably turned at least a few 'uncommitted' into antis by your arrogance and tasteless arguments!  If you REALLY care about hunting, think on this!  Some in-depth research carried out by the BFSS in the '90s revealed that the ONLY urban residents who weren't 'anti' were people who knew someone who hunted and LIKED that person!  You don't come over here as very likeable!


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## Jim Moriarty (3 November 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			On THIS forum, JM, I think you've probably turned at least a few 'uncommitted' into antis by your arrogance and tasteless arguments!  If you REALLY care about hunting, think on this!  Some in-depth research carried out by the BFSS in the '90s revealed that the ONLY urban residents who weren't 'anti' were people who knew someone who hunted and LIKED that person!  *You don't come over here as very likeable!*

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Hear, hear!


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## Paddydou (3 November 2010)

JimMoriarty said:



			Hear, hear!
		
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And so say all of us! 

I hope you get a *VERY PUBLIC* apology Janet! Along with all the others who had to suffer the tirade of insults! It was very embarrassing for many! 

Your reasoned arguement is fantastic and I have always enjoyed reading your posts. You have been both informative and committed. Wish there were more of you in this world!


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## Simsar (3 November 2010)

Paddydou said:



			I will try anything to see if I like it, just a bit squemish when it comes to dead things! I blame my parents for allowing me to eat Monty. Mind we all went veggie for a while after that!!! There is somethings about eating your beloved pet that you saved from the brink of death that well just doesn't really sit well with my stomach even if he was very yummy!
QUOTE]

A little story for you.........

Back in 2007 we decided to buy and rear a Gloucester Old Spot piglet for ourselves to help keep us in meat over the winter. We went to our local breeder who had one ''Dolly'' (runt) left for sale. We decided to take her and after all the relevant DEFRA forms we popped her in the back of the van and took her home.

We had set aside a stable in the old barn and fenced off an area outside the barn for her to her to root around in. ''Dolly'' quickly settled in to her routine of in at night out during the day and was great fun, oinking away every time we went round to see her constantly looking for feed. At the time one of the liveries on the yard worked at the local pub and she put a bucket in the kitchen for veg scraps and beer slop which she thoroughly enjoyed!! 

When the day came for ''the chop'' we had decided to have it done at home so as to cause minimal stress to her, we had a local friend come out to shoot her, we had got her used to being moved around with a pig bored and stick so she thought nothing of the rifle, after the job was done we hung, bled and butchered her ourselves (Sarah's dad came and helped as he used to be a butcher). There was no bad feelings when it came to the job as we knew we had given her the best life possible and the time she had had was as care free as it could have been.

We made Pate from her livers and tried desperately hard not to waste any of her, anything we weren't sure about the dogs and cat had. That winter we ate so well and everybody that came round for dinner said it was the best pork they had ever had, her meat had an almost game flavour and a rich colour to it, and we can only put this down to her not having any commercial feed and living a happy and healthy life.

We will do it again very soon (did buy a lamb to try it with last year but my boss has claimed it as a pet!) and maybe Pads you could come round for tea and we could convert you to *proper* meat. We also buy whole deer carcass, rabbit, pheasant etc from the local guns to help keep us, it's so much cheaper than the Butchers and fresher. 

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## Paddydou (3 November 2010)

Simsar said:



			We will do it again very soon (did buy a lamb to try it with last year but my boss has claimed it as a pet!) and maybe Pads you could come round for tea and we could convert you to *proper* meat. 

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Dolly sounds yummy!!!

I am happy with eating meat as long as I haven't formed an attachment to it in the first place! Monty was sublime and you really have never tasted anything quite like it! 

I am just squeemish! Freely admit to being a total woose! Is the invite to supper still open though?!?!? 

I am afriad that Dolly would have still been with us if it had been me! Even my chooks are spoilt rotten and don't they know it! One will peck me if I don't give her enough attention and a couple of them are still sulking that they haven't had a cooked breakfast for the past couple of days!!! I am a hopeless farmers daughter I freely admit it! The calves that have been served up, my grandfathers pigs, lambs, chickens... I feel not a shred of guilt until I realise I was scratching their backs not so long ago!!! You should meet my Granny - she is a veggie but a hardened one and is quite happy to take the knife out, break a neck etc. I have to call on Dad or my brother and even then they hate doing it... Wimps I know! 

Home reared meat is so much nicer though isn't it. Everyone goes mad for my eggs and you really can tell the difference in the taste. It has so much more flavour and taste to it... My stomach is rumbling and making me feel guilty!


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## Judgemental (4 November 2010)

Have you ever noticed, how, when one is juggling some biscuit in the grass yard, all the bitches are the one's who are the most attentive? Dog hounds are shall we say, a little more detached.

I see there are individuals seeking personal apologies. In any war zone there is always collateral damage and in this civil war, the higher the profile, the more likely there is to be 'accidents' and especially those from friendly fire.

Now back to the front; namely hunting in France, is carried on without let or hindrance by any government interference or Gestapo like organisations.

The French are members of the EU and are governed by the same laws that are disseminated to us by Brussels.

Seemingly we are leaping out of bed militarily with the Americans and jumping into bed with French who are going to provide our naval carrier support.

It is my sincere belief that the fulcrum upon a complete repeal of the Hunting Act 2004, should be based upon a par with our French allies, who have the good sence to encourage hunting.

I believe President Sarkosy and his wife enjoy and are keen supporters of La Chasse.


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## Amymay (4 November 2010)

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## Paddydou (4 November 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Have you ever noticed, how, when one is juggling some biscuit in the grass yard, all the bitches are the one's who are the most attentive? Dog hounds are shall we say, a little more detached.

I see there are individuals seeking personal apologies. In any war zone there is always collateral damage and in this civil war, the higher the profile, the more likely there is to be 'accidents' and especially those from friendly fire.
		
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Thats because dog hounds have a tendancy to be more forthright with their bite than the bitches...

So you consider an arguement you started to be the equivilent of a war? No JM this is not like that. You can be grumpy yes, but to say the things you did then liken it to such situations is crass behaviour. Something I have come to expect. To say that you don't need to apologise for your inapropriate behaviour - pompus again as I have come to expect... Grow up at some point will you!

Yawn.


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## Judgemental (4 November 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			Good!  You can start, then, by apologising to me!  Because I am definitely NOT an anti - and I disagree with you so regularly now it's becoming monotonous!/QUOTE]

Then the powers that be should get off their backsides and have the Hunting Act 2004 repealed and such as myself will shut up.
		
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## Paddydou (4 November 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Then the powers that be should get off their backsides and have the Hunting Act 2004 repealed and such as myself will shut up.
		
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Then sort your attitude out and help them get it repealed rather than throw your teddies out of the pram and cause a whole load of uneccessary bad feeling!


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## Alec Swan (4 November 2010)

Has it ever occurred to anyone,  that those who are opposed to hunting,  are united,  and that those of us who are all for the reinstatement of an honourable,  worthwhile and valued country pursuit, aren't?  

Whilst it isn't my place to decide which posts have been acceptable,  and which haven't,  I have to say J_M,  that your views,  posted on a public forum,  have done little to promote Hunting.  You've also been offered the opportunity to apologise to those who you've offended.  An opportunity which you've failed to take.  You have done nothing to promote hunting,  indeed you are doing our time honoured sport a grave disservice. 

Your rather strange parallels between Hitler and Blair,  for instance,  would be considered by most,  to be a trifle whacky,  at the very least.  By such arguments,  you are supplying the Antis with all the evidence which they need to convince those who would make the decisions which affect us all,  that those who hunt are everything which is undesirable in a person of rural bent.

The repeal of the Hunting Act will only come about by a reasoned,  courteous,  factual and well presented case.  I would hope that you will consider my thoughts,  and perhaps "sleep" on your further posts,  before sending them.

Alec.


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## Judgemental (4 November 2010)

Paddydou said:



			Then sort your attitude out and help them get it repealed rather than throw your teddies out of the pram and cause a whole load of uneccessary bad feeling!
		
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Paddy I say with complete honesty, I have, believe me I have, but they don't listen or if they do, they don't act, or if they do, it's not with any alacrity. I for one, am fed up with spending a fortune to go for a hack round the countryside!

Alec I see what you said, a number of MPs were voted for on the hunting ticket, now is the time for them to deliver!


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## Amymay (4 November 2010)

a number of MPs were voted for on the hunting ticket, now is the time for them to deliver!
		
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With all due respect, with the country in the state it is, they have far more important things to worry about.


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## Alec Swan (4 November 2010)

Judgemental said:



			.......a number of MPs were voted for on the hunting ticket, now is the time for them to deliver!
		
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Quite.  

See?  It wasn't that difficult,  was it?!!

Alec.


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## Simsar (4 November 2010)

amymay said:



			With all due respect, with the country in the state it is, they have far more important things to worry about.
		
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As was the country in a state when they banned it.


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## Amymay (4 November 2010)

Simsar said:



			As was the country in a state when they banned it.
		
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Yes it was, I agree - although not to the degree it is now, obviously.


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## Paddydou (4 November 2010)

Alec Swan said:



			The repeal of the Hunting Act will only come about by a reasoned,  courteous,  factual and well presented case.  I would hope that you will consider my thoughts,  and perhaps "sleep" on your further posts,  before sending them.

Alec.
		
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Encore!


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## Simsar (4 November 2010)

Pads stunning photo has AS seen it????


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## Judgemental (4 November 2010)

amymay said:



			With all due respect, with the country in the state it is, they have far more important things to worry about.
		
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What due respect, Tony Blair and his Gestapo did not have any respect for hunting, the people and the way of life and he has now said so! His deputy Lord Prescott was content to smash a pro-hunt supporter physically in the face. It is therefore a very important matter to a number of people. May be not the majority, nevertheless there is a section of society who has been marginalised by state legislature. The leader of the party that enacted the Hunting Act 2004 has now said publically and in his recent book, he did not understand the issues but he does now and realises the legislation has to be repealed.

How long do we have to wait?

Respect, there was and is no respect!


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## Jim Moriarty (4 November 2010)

Judgemental said:



			His deputy Lord Prescott was content to smash a pro-hunt supporter physically in the face.
		
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Really? I must have missed that. Do tell...


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## JanetGeorge (4 November 2010)

JimMoriarty said:



			Really? I must have missed that. Do tell...
		
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It was a bit of a hoo-haa!  Said hunting supporter threw an egg at 2 Jags Prescott - which hit its target.  2-Jags promptly punched hunt supporter in face. Neither side won!  Hunt supporter was in the wrong - not least because he was a burly lad less than half 2-Jags' age.  (If I'd have set that up I would have wanted a 70 year old lady with a walking stick throwing the egg! )  And 2-Jags proved he was an a*se (but we knew that anyway!)


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## Alec Swan (4 November 2010)

Mrs. George(!),

with respect,  I don't agree.  That awful buffoon, Prescot was surrounded by BGs and police.  He didn't have to react as he did.  Had that been you,  or me,  we'd have ended up in Court,  and been charged with assault.  He wasn't defending himself,  the attack was over.

We'll never know,  of course,  but I wonder if he'd have hit an elderly lady.  Probably,  is the answer to that!!  A revolting man,  by any standards.

Alec.


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## JanetGeorge (4 November 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Now back to the front; namely hunting in France, is carried on without let or hindrance by any government interference or Gestapo like organisations.

The French are members of the EU and are governed by the same laws that are disseminated to us by Brussels.
		
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You are a long way behind the times.  The UK hunting ban has already been challenged (unsuccessfully) in the European Court!  The EU Court held that an individual member country's Parliament is justified in acting on subjective judgments about the morality of an activity in that country.


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## Alec Swan (4 November 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			You are a long way behind the times.  The UK hunting ban has already been challenged (unsuccessfully) in the European Court!  The EU Court held that an individual member country's Parliament is justified in acting on subjective judgments about the morality of an activity in that country.
		
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An interesting point.  I wonder where the line is,  between perceived morality,  and human rights.  

Alec.


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## JanetGeorge (4 November 2010)

Alec Swan said:



			with respect,  I don't agree.  That awful buffoon, Prescot was surrounded by BGs and police.  He didn't have to react as he did.  Had that been you,  or me,  we'd have ended up in Court,  and been charged with assault.  He wasn't defending himself,  the attack was over.
		
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Of COURSE Prescott acted wrongfully - and if the case had come to court he MIGHT have been found guilty of assault.  But so would the hunt supporter - who threw the first egg/punch!  Prescott's defence would have been that he acted without thinking in response to an 'unprovoked' attack - in self defence!

There's a very good (and I think very accurate) description of the incident and Labour's reaction to it - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-truth-about-prescott-and-that-punch-508156.html

And - for what it's worth - there WAS an element of 'set-up' in the incident - but the Countryside Alliance was NOT involved!


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## JanetGeorge (4 November 2010)

Alec Swan said:



			An interesting point.  I wonder where the line is,  between perceived morality,  and human rights.
		
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The case was based on the human rights argument.

The Strasbourg court ruled unanimously that every one of the complaints was inadmissible. The judges said the ban did not affect the right to private and family life because hunting was essentially a public activity, and it did not restrict the plaintiff's right to assemble with other huntsmen.

Freedom of association was unaffected because people remained free to associate with other hunters in many alternative activities, such as drag or trail hunting, without the use of "live quarry".

The judges said that "not every activity a person might seek to engage in together with others was protected" by the convention on human rights.

"The ban had been designed to eliminate the hunting and killing of animals for sport in a manner causing suffering and being morally objectionable," they concluded.

They said it had been introduced "after extensive debate by the democratically elected representatives of the State on the social and ethical issues raised by that type of hunting".


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## Saucisson (4 November 2010)

Just a point but The European Court of Justice is based in Luxembourg and the European Court of Human Rights is based in Strasbourg, France.

Poor old Brussels always gets battered but they don't make all the decisions there!

Hunting is very popular here too (wild boar, deer, rabbits) but it's mainly on foot and in my experience, they are not at all "horse-friendly".


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## Paddydou (4 November 2010)

Simsar said:



			Pads stunning photo has AS seen it????
		
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Nope - only you! I am afriad I don't do dresing up all that well! I prefer one a friend of mine took of me in my cowboy hat. He caught me as I was running through a field laughing my head off. Everyone loves that one. Will try and dig it out for you!

Looks as though the conversation may have gotten interesting so will be back after checking the updates!


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## Paddydou (4 November 2010)

I can honestly say that I can see only one way to change and get the repeal and that is by gaining public support. We should all be embarking on a gentle persuasive arguement through out schools, colleges, have open days etc and keep plugging at it. If we throw our arms in the air and create hoo ha we will never gain the respect required to complete the goal. 

If we have invested as much money and time as LACS in education then I can almost guarentee that it wouldn't have happened. Showing the hounds at country events is fantastic but we need to become more main stream and get a greater coverage. Talk to people about it and educate people about it, keep calm and carry on! We need to get into the towns and cities and all those areas that we would normally avoid. We need to bring the countryside to people who have never seen nor experianced it. Maps of the underground are up in London for visitors who don't know their way we need to apply the same principles to our ways of life. Get children onto farms, into kennels, grooming a shetland pony etc. It is so so very important.


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## Alec Swan (4 November 2010)

Janet,

Thanks for the Independent report.  I read it with interest,  and a degree of amusement,  particularly the head line suggestion for Maxwell.  Very funny!!

I have no problems with commoners being offered a peerage.  None what so ever.  I'm tempted to say the commoner the better,  but Jesus,  there are limits,  surely!!  I've got a collie dog who'd have supported Blair,  were he asked too.  Whether he'd have deserved a peerage is another matter!

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (4 November 2010)

Paddydou said:



			I can honestly say that I can see only one way to change and get the repeal and that is by gaining public support. We should all be embarking on a gentle persuasive arguement through out schools, colleges, have open days etc and keep plugging at it. If we throw our arms in the air and create hoo ha we will never gain the respect required to complete the goal. 

If we have invested as much money and time as LACS in education then I can almost guarentee that it wouldn't have happened. Showing the hounds at country events is fantastic but we need to become more main stream and get a greater coverage. Talk to people about it and educate people about it, keep calm and carry on! We need to get into the towns and cities and all those areas that we would normally avoid. We need to bring the countryside to people who have never seen nor experianced it. Maps of the underground are up in London for visitors who don't know their way we need to apply the same principles to our ways of life. Get children onto farms, into kennels, grooming a shetland pony etc. It is so so very important.
		
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Blimey,  I've found an ally!!  You've got it in one,  Padds.

Alec.


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## Paddydou (4 November 2010)

Alec Swan said:



			Blimey,  I've found an ally!!  You've got it in one,  Padds.

Alec.
		
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Each year I do pony rides for a Starlight fun day at a local airfield. The children (all suffering life limiting conditions) are invited from all over the South of England and we all give what we have, for a day, for them to have fun and be kids not patients. Airplane rides, motorbikes of all shapes and sizes, jugglers, face paints you name it if we can get it into the space we do. Its fantastic.

90% of the inner city kids have never seen a horse in "real life", those that have its been a police horse... When they get on they are normally terrified, exhilerated, wanting to do more learn more, see more. They love the smell, feel, and sensations they get from riding and being with horses. It also helps that my great friend and I act like complete plonkers and pretend that we are national hunt jockeys, huntsmen, knights of the round table, dresage riders, show jumpers, cowboys anything and everything to help show them the enormous diversity there is within the equestrian world and to feed their curiosity.

How can we possibly expect people who have no concept of our way of life to understand and support us? There is no point in trying to beat it into someone they will only resist and have a bad impression which will then be spread via word of mouth to others and fast!

There will be no quick fix but a long and steady plug. I can see no other way that woudl guarentee the level of sucess we require. It was banned on the hear say of "public out cry" so lets use that very same weapon and concept and use it to our own advantage as well as the advantage of those who would greatly enjoy for us to share what we have with them.

That and shoot everyone you know who voted Labour...


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## Alec Swan (4 November 2010)

Now then,  J_M,  as you started this thread,  and as a simple courtesy to Paddydou,  perhaps you could offer your thoughts.

Alec.


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## Paddydou (4 November 2010)

Can you imagine the  joy on kids faces if their school were flooded with hounds? They would love it and having a go at blowing a horn, shooting a gun at a target, heck even meeting terriers and hawks. Meeting people who are pro but don't hunt people who do hunt people who work in the hunts hearing the tall tales and stories we all share in the pub or at meals, getting to fuss and lead a pony around, learning to pick up its feet etc...

They could meet farmers and see a tractor and a combine. Heck I bet most of them wouldn't even know how to bake an apple pie from scratch. Meet a sheep see a sheep dog work, meet a cow, chickens etc.

They would have an absolute ball! Why are we not doing this? Why are we all not volunteering just one day and what we have to promote our way of life?


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## Scheherezade (4 November 2010)

Can you imagine the response to an exam on boot straps and gartertops?!


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## MissySmythe (4 November 2010)

BrambleandMonty said:



			Can you imagine the response to an exam on boot straps and gartertops?!
		
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So easy! Multiple choice lol. Foresee an 'a' level next year................?


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## Alec Swan (4 November 2010)

BrambleandMonty said:



			Can you imagine the response to an exam on boot straps and gartertops?!
		
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From sixth form,  the garter tops,  most certainly!

Alec.


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## MerrySherryRider (4 November 2010)

Paddydou said:



			Can you imagine the  joy on kids faces if their school were flooded with hounds? They would love it and having a go at blowing a horn, shooting a gun at a target, heck even meeting terriers and hawks. Meeting people who are pro but don't hunt people who do hunt people who work in the hunts hearing the tall tales and stories we all share in the pub or at meals, getting to fuss and lead a pony around, learning to pick up its feet etc...

They could meet farmers and see a tractor and a combine. Heck I bet most of them wouldn't even know how to bake an apple pie from scratch. Meet a sheep see a sheep dog work, meet a cow, chickens etc.

They would have an absolute ball! Why are we not doing this? Why are we all not volunteering just one day and what we have to promote our way of life?
		
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Actually, i wouldn't be too happy about my 6year old being used as part of a propaganda battle. Education in conservation and wildlife, yes, but to further anyone's political agenda. NO.
Opens the floodgates to everyone else with a mission. Education is for the benefit of the children, not as a means of scoring points.


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## Paddydou (4 November 2010)

horserider said:



			Actually, i wouldn't be too happy about my 6year old being used as part of a propaganda battle. Education in conservation and wildlife, yes, but to further anyone's political agenda. NO.
Opens the floodgates to everyone else with a mission. Education is for the benefit of the children, not as a means of scoring points.
		
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This is not about propoganda or scoring points its about informed choice. How many 6 year olds have actually had the chance to see hounds?

Are you aware that LACS promote and "educate" within schools, colleges and universities already? They have many "training" videos showing some really vile footage that I am not terribly sure is factual. I am not suggesting that we go recruiting but give people the chance to make an informed choice. If they still want to be anti after getting a better idea of what goes on and why then thats ok but the biggest difference is that it would be an informed choice rather than a choice made because someone screamed louder than the other.

I am sure that the garter tops could wait until they reach 6th form (or whatever its called these days) at the least!!!


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## MerrySherryRider (4 November 2010)

I have no problem with this being offered outside school, but school is not for various groups with vested interest to use children for their own agenda. Who else wants to have a slot in the timetable ? Misunderstood trainspotters united ?


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## Paddydou (4 November 2010)

horserider said:



			I have no problem with this being offered outside school, but school is not for various groups with vested interest to use children for their own agenda. Who else wants to have a slot in the timetable ? Misunderstood trainspotters united ?
		
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LACS have been doing this for years and the things they show even youngsters are horrific... Not so much these days but in the run up to the ban... Propoganda at its best.

If you didn't know be warned...

So you don't think its a good idea to show children a different way of life and how it all neatly slots together and how country sports and professions all work together to produce food, clothing, furniture, bricks for houses etc? Or is it just the hunt aspect that you are not keen on?


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## Paddydou (4 November 2010)

Paddydou said:



			LACS have been doing this for years and the things they show even youngsters are horrific... Not so much these days but in the run up to the ban... Propoganda at its best.

If you didn't know be warned...

So you don't think its a good idea to show children a different way of life and how it all neatly slots together and how country sports and professions all work together to produce food, clothing, furniture, bricks for houses etc? Or is it just the hunt aspect that you are not keen on?
		
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Just re read that and it sounds argumentative which is not the intention just curious to know your ideas and thoughs as a parent.


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## MerrySherryRider (4 November 2010)

Paddydou said:



			LACS have been doing this for years and the things they show even youngsters are horrific... Not so much these days but in the run up to the ban... Propoganda at its best.

If you didn't know be warned...

So you don't think its a good idea to show children a different way of life and how it all neatly slots together and how country sports and professions all work together to produce food, clothing, furniture, bricks for houses etc? Or is it just the hunt aspect that you are not keen on?
		
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Thats why I choose schools for my children that concentrate primarily on educating them. 
I am happy for them to be educated in social history and aspects of modern day living, but not from groups that have an agenda. 
Last week one of the dads brought his ferrets into school by invitation. He enjoyed it and so did the children. Another dad brought a lamb in last spring.Another some spiders. No agenda. Just childrens parents showing the little one's something to broaden their knowledge. No one was trying to influence the children, no group with a axe to grind.
 I object to any attempts to politicise young minds, before they have the maturity to see the whole picture. Schools are there to teach children to read and write. If they can get that right , then they can fanny about and have a day a week for anyone who wants a shot at them.


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## Alec Swan (4 November 2010)

horserider said:



			Actually, i wouldn't be too happy about my 6year old being used as part of a propaganda battle. Education in conservation and wildlife, yes, but to further anyone's political agenda. NO.
Opens the floodgates to everyone else with a mission. Education is for the benefit of the children, not as a means of scoring points.
		
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It isn't a matter of scoring points,  or any form of indoctrination (though for the LACS,  it most certainly is),  but more a case of offering the facts of a rural existence to children,  as many on this forum learnt,  and then allowing them to reach a decision for themselves.

I wouldn't suggest,  for one moment,  that a child of 6 should be taken into an abattoir,  and witness a slaughter house in full swing.  As a very small child,  probably from the age of 6,  I watched lambs,  puppies,  calves and foals being born.  I also witnessed how the mothers of these animals got themselves pregnant too!  Strangely,  at no point,  that I can remember,  did I link that to humans.  That came much later!

To be quite truthful with you,  I hadn't considered the aspect of a parent considering that their child may be considered as a pawn,  and if that's how you feel,  then I for one,  understand.  

It will be for every caring parent to make the decision on behalf of their child.

Alec.

Ets,  I've just read your last post,  and whilst i don't understand your last sentence,  I would point out that at some stage the learning process for children needs to be a little more than the 3 Rs.  The few good teachers who I had,  were more generally,  outside the class room!! a.


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## MerrySherryRider (5 November 2010)

Alec Swan said:



			Ets,  I've just read your last post,  and whilst i don't understand your last sentence,  I would point out that at some stage the learning process for children needs to be a little more than the 3 Rs.  The few good teachers who I had,  were more generally,  outside the class room!! a.
		
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I agree with you, last sentence was aimed more at the PC Education Dept, not quite fair for the purpose of this topic, but do get fed up with the basics being ignored, but thats OT.


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## spacefaer (5 November 2010)

much as I am loathe to disturb JM (and rouse the currently apparently sleeping beast) I would just like to point out that the critical difference between the French and English attitude to hunting was a revolution (now some time ago!)

The French people believe that the right to hunt is something that was won for the populace at the time of the Revolution, as it had previously been a royal perogative.

In England, the people's perception of hunting has always been that it is a sport of the upper or ruling classes, bringing with that perception, a natural resentment and a feeling of exclusion, which JM, your attitude only serves to promulgate.


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## EAST KENT (6 November 2010)

spacefaer said:



			much as I am loathe to disturb JM (and rouse the currently apparently sleeping beast) I would just like to point out that the critical difference between the French and English attitude to hunting was a revolution (now some time ago!)

The French people believe that the right to hunt is something that was won for the populace at the time of the Revolution, as it had previously been a royal perogative.

In England, the people's perception of hunting has always been that it is a sport of the upper or ruling classes, bringing with that perception, a natural resentment and a feeling of exclusion, which JM, your attitude only serves to promulgate.
		
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Quite agree,hunting needs more pro hunting propaganda,and being snobby and exclusive will only turn possible supporters away.
It used to be quite acceptable,and probably still is in Eire,to grab any old horse and tag along if you heard hounds nearby.
 Quite honestly after all the snotty crap JM has bored us with of late I  even find myself rather more disinterested than usual.I can well remember John Funnell turning up halfway through  a Tickham  day on a new three year old,dressed in fancy western fringed chaps and no hat..just to joly around the woods as part of its education.He was warmly welcomed.

  Getting people enthusiastic in the first place is far more important right now than all the etiquette stuff;that bit can be worked on as the newcomers realise they have caught the bug.We should just be very pleased and welcoming to anyone trying out a new venture.
  Old trouts still firmly entrenched in the 1950`s or before are not assisting our cause at all.


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## MerrySherryRider (6 November 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			Quite agree,hunting needs more pro hunting propaganda,and being snobby and exclusive will only turn possible supporters away.
It used to be quite acceptable,and probably still is in Eire,to grab any old horse and tag along if you heard hounds nearby.
 Quite honestly after all the snotty crap JM has bored us with of late I  even find myself rather more disinterested than usual.I can well remember John Funnell turning up halfway through  a Tickham  day on a new three year old,dressed in fancy western fringed chaps and no hat..just to joly around the woods as part of its education.He was warmly welcomed.

  Getting people enthusiastic in the first place is far more important right now than all the etiquette stuff;that bit can be worked on as the newcomers realise they have caught the bug.We should just be very pleased and welcoming to anyone trying out a new venture.
  Old trouts still firmly entrenched in the 1950`s or before are not assisting our cause at all.
		
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Too right. 
Personally, my feelings are that if you want to take part in the sport, turn up on a fit horse and get out there. If you want to play dress up, stay on the lawn and chat. Perhaps have a best turned out competition, while the others are getting muddy and sweaty.
Ditch the snobbery and get the sport into the 21st century.


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## EAST KENT (7 November 2010)

horserider said:



			Too right. 
Personally, my feelings are that if you want to take part in the sport, turn up on a fit horse and get out there. If you want to play dress up, stay on the lawn and chat. Perhaps have a best turned out competition, while the others are getting muddy and sweaty.
Ditch the snobbery and get the sport into the 21st century.
		
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Get them out there to catch the bug,neat and tidy will do ..a hacking jacket and synthetic boots (pass the smelling salts!) is fine for the first days;once they are smitten..then it is time to invest in more correct gear.
Please can we stop frightening people off?

 My first day ,a hundred or so years ago, as a just eight year old, was on a 21 year old unclipped Welsh  TYPE  pony and dressed in a lent hacking jacket a yellow polo neck jumper and (VERY) polished lace up brown shoes. BUT the bug was truly caught.I think the "cap" was a shilling!!


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## rosie fronfelen (7 November 2010)

It's funny that JM disappears when threads such as these come on,we had all types out yesterday at our opening meet and every year we have a great deal more followers than the year before, which is the main thing. Bless them all i say!


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## Alec Swan (8 November 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			It's funny that JM disappears when threads such as these come on,we had all types out yesterday at our opening meet and every year we have a great deal more followers than the year before, which is the main thing. Bless them all i say!
		
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I suppose, Rosie,  that it's a bit like the thinking of the established Church.  It doesn't matter how you get them in,  just do it!!

A selection of excellent posts.  Well said,  everyone!

Alec.


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## Paddydou (8 November 2010)

It really is a case of "bums on seats" isn't it (or in this case saddles and on foot etc). 

I feel that the main problem with our "hunting issue" is the barage of very poor press that it has had and the few who are a bit "gung ho" with it all. What right minded person really wants to be "bloodied"? Who would really want their child to have that done to them? Yes it is a bit archaic and I haven't heard of any such things in recent years but those memories will stick with people either as very positive and part of a ritual or as very negative and barbaric... 

Because of all the negativity that has been spread much of the positive has been forgotten and left to go by the wayside. Not only do we all need to get with the 21st centurary (getting with the 20th first may be useful) but we should also be careful that we maintain as much of the tradition as possible. After all Hunting is what it is and we should treasure it as such. 

There is no point in having a argument with people who are convinced that the upper classes hunted foxes to extinction (in the UK) 100 years ago and then had to import them. I would love to know the basis in fact of this comment which is often thrown at me by staunch antis but have been unable to find anything for or against so can never make any comment. It would be all very good and well to say that didn't happen but somewhere they have seen literature that states it as fact (probably more LACS propoganda pulling on the heart strings again). This is just one of many "facts" thrown at me during debate on the subject. So where has it come from?? "Education" - thats where.

You have to give it to them. LACS has been very proactive in pushing their cause and alienating the vast majority of city slickers towards their rural friends. Divide and rule. The only way we are going to gain any ground is to slowly plug at it, remain dignified and accept that some will never agree with us and educate those who know nothing but the filth spewed forth by those against us. Every arguement always has 2 sides. Much as I am loath to admit it antis have every right to be anti the same way in that we have every right to hunt should we choose to. However we handed it to them on a plate. We let them do this to us so we are as much to blame as they are and we need to take responsibility for teh fact that we didn't do anything until it was too late. Yes those marches were too late. We shoudl have started informing people of the flip side of the argument a long long time ago!

Education and getting into areas that we ourselves are afraid of, the inner cities etc, will only help us to understand where others are coming from and help them to understand where we are coming from. This subject is often placed in the same category as seal clubbing which, I am sure you will all agree, really holds no bearing to what we do and really hunting can not be drawn in comparison.

There has to be a better way. There has to be but we as a group have to keep our cool, stop sulking because our dummy has been taken away and start a reasoned plan of action. There is no quick fix. 

I firmly believe in education, being open about what we do and getting on with it. Half the joy of hunting after all is the one that got away, marveling at the chase and how canny Charlie can be. I am sure that each and every person reading this who has watched a hunt has seen Charlie cross his tracks and confuse the hounds. I bet every one of you said "look at the clever fox (or insert apropriate swear word here)!" when you saw him do it. I have yet to meet anyone who enjoys the "kill" - that is the point where hunting becomes a job rather than a sport. It makes me really cross when people try to put hunting into a neat box because its not just sport, its not just a job, its not just a hobby and yet it is all those things and so much more. I bet you LACS has not pointed out that the vast majority of hunting folk revere Charlie and his antics in many ways - a far cry from hating animals and wanting to destroy them all I am sure you will agree! The love that Hunting folk have for their surroundings and everything that lives in it is utterly unique. It is a passion. So much of this has been missed and forgotten in the fight. We need to start remembering why we do what we do, then start promoting it rather than just stamping our feet and screaming "WE ARE RIGHT WE ARE RIGHT" all the time.

I could go on forever but I shall stop before everyone starts stoning me!


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## Alec Swan (8 November 2010)

Word perfect,  Paddydou,  and Id be interested to hear a counter argument,  should there be one.

Alec.


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## Millyard Rejects (8 November 2010)

Alec Swan said:



			I've got a collie dog who'd have supported Blair

Alec.
		
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Im absolutely disgusted!!! a collie dog supporting blair!!! 

My eldest collie-McCoy was brought up around sheep, hounds,horses and has behaved impeccibly throughout his life.
He went to all the game fairs throughout UK and even had a few spins round Bramham, Badminton and Burghley in his younger days.  Making him a true 4star dog! 
He certainly didnt vote for Blair and as such is happy to be in Ireland the place of his birth where he is allowed to follow the scent and give charlie a run for his money. However he has no intention of moving to France for the hunting-he said something about garden pests and extra worming tablets??


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## MerrySherryRider (9 November 2010)

Alec Swan said:



			Word perfect,  Paddydou,  and Id be interested to hear a counter argument,  should there be one.

Alec.
		
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Erm.. that'll be me then. Firstly, I'd take issue with Paddydou's inference that the vast majority of city slickers are anti towards their rural friends. Many country born and bred people do not support hunting, some may have been inconvenienced or alienated by first hand experience when encountering the hunt. Some of those city slickers are hunt supporters and may also hunt. Thats what horses on hunting livery are for. I am friends with a few of them who never see or ride their horses in summer, and indeed,a couple who, quite literally only see their horses being loaded onto the box, plaited and tacked up. The image of knowledge country folk supporting the traditions of the countryside are not entirely correct.
Secondly, this preserving tradition is. for me, what alienates many desenters. The image of snobbery and previledge is deliberately cultivated by the hunting faternity. Decide what you want. Is hunting primarily a sport or a tradition with no relevance to the countryside today ? Farmers have moved on, embracing change. Ploughs and heavy horses are a hobby. Equestrianism has moved on. Clothing is about functionality and safety. New textiles have been designed to keep us warm and dry. Modern riders wear hi Viz to be seen and as courtesy to road users, who they hope will slow down for them.
Because riding is seen as elitist by some of the public, many of us try to dispell this image. Dressing up in clothes that are unsuitable for the sport in the 21 st century is vanity.
Do eventers and endurance riders not wear functional kit ? Is visability not a priority for riding out in the country these days ? Should horseowners be prevented from hunting because paying for livery and feed is more essential than a woollen hunting jacket and the rest of the kit ?
Do you want people to hunt or play dress up ? Kindly permitting new comers not to adhere to the correct attire for the first few outings is not enough. If I could hunt regularly without expectation to 'posh up' and bring my unplaited horse ( standing on somefreezing winter morning pulling my horses mane into a series of tight plaits leaves me cold.) - then I'd be there twice a week instead of once in a very blue moon.


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## Paddydou (9 November 2010)

Ah horserider you are correct in so many ways however one is always forced to generalise when trying to make a point and there will as ever be many exceptions to the rule!

I have just met so very many people who have no clue what it is about. I have met people who claim to be country folk who have no clue how to tell the difference between grass and crop (when it is fully grown I hasten to add!). All very scary!

I agree with many of the comments you make however I do think that there also needs to be a standard. You don't go to a dressage test in muddy brushing boots nor would you go show jumping without your jacket! The same applies to hunting. Keep it as an event and mark the day as special by dressing up for it a bit. This could change slightly to accommodate other tastes in clothing but I do believe that it is important to maintain that distinction between going for a hack and going hunting for the day. There are a number of ways of doing this. Hunt colours for example, keep them but have a smart modern jacket instead of hacking jacket. It would be a shame to go this way but thats just me and my love of history and trying to protect anything that is a tradition! Please bear in mind that I want to rip out my central heating and go back to a Rayburn or Aga as I find them far more efficient! I am of the mind that plaiting for open meets and lawn meets should remain but plaiting for the rest would serve no purpose and a neatly pulled/ groomed mane would suffice. I prepare to be shot down by those who I know would disagree and I see their points!

You are absolutely right about alienation of folk. It really is a crying shame and I am sure that others as well as I would welcome fresh ideas and fresh views. I also agree that feeding and bedding your horse is far more important than rider attire! Time and money are things that are both in very short supply these days. Horses in general, I agree, are still seen as elitist. It is still assumed that I am rolling in cash because I own my own but if you count 3 jobs and being frugal into that... I guess it is just the perception that people have.


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## MerrySherryRider (9 November 2010)

Paddydou, I agree with you on every point, just about. Most of my hunting friends are sane, down to earth folk , like yourself, who are great ambassadors for hunting. 
I am a traditionalist too, but the practical side of my nature overides the need for making life hard for oneself. Keep the ceremony and dress standard for open and lawn meets and compromise by having days for those of us who avoid like the plague, activities like showing, where preparation is mind numbingly dull. I just want to ride, on heathy, groomed horses and couldn't give a toss about the correctness of the type of boots or the colour of the jacket I'm wearing.


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## Paddydou (9 November 2010)

Ah see I do... I would hate to let my old boy down... 

Mind you he hates plaits and just wants to get going at the biggest hedges and gates he can find be it out hunting, on a hack, show jumping (bit dull for him as he cant gallop) or his most favourite thing going cross country... He will even make up obsticals to jump such as a photographers car, a trailer, the odd sheep... So you see it can get a bit hairy at times and I want as much to grab onto as I can! We tend to get into a bit of trouble when we go out together as we are always looking for the next adventure hence why I don't ride much at all these days - we just have fun remembering instead!

Its seems we are singing the same song but my version is from memory which is a touch rose tinted I will admit!


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## Millyard Rejects (9 November 2010)

horserider said:



			Paddydou, I agree with you on every point, just about. Most of my hunting friends are sane, down to earth folk , like yourself, who are great ambassadors for hunting. 
I am a traditionalist too, but the practical side of my nature overides the need for making life hard for oneself. Keep the ceremony and dress standard for open and lawn meets and compromise by having days for those of us who avoid like the plague, activities like showing, where preparation is mind numbingly dull. I just want to ride, on heathy, groomed horses and couldn't give a toss about the correctness of the type of boots or the colour of the jacket I'm wearing.
		
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I wasnt going to get involved but alas....here i am!
Having been a groom for an event rider and for 2 hunts when I lived in Uk I do think a dress code is required and I think people should make the effort of turning out their horses correctly.
Please feel free to shoot me down but my reasons are-
If everyone in the field wears the same type of jacket,same shade etc it means there is none of the nonsense of people turning up in horrendous coloured attire that some dodgy celebrity endorses and the ensuing competion between people of who spent the most money on their disgusting pink/baby blue jacket! Remember school uniforms? and days where we went uniform free and the worry we might not be trendy??
Most riders wear backprotectors under their hunting jackets..although i know several who claim they dont? and stocks tied correctly are used on the hunting field as in horse trials.
I think it would be better if hunts were to adopt the approach of some of the racing yards-and all wear a waterproof type jacket?
Ive found the yards who turn out their horses in the correct manner-plaited, tails trimmed etc. also have one thing in common-well behaved horses? if people "fanny" around plaiting and trimming for the hunting season then chances are horses are fit for their job and better schooled. If they worry about the little things then chances are the bigger jobs are done correctly too.Meaning horses behave when asked to stand and wait, and dont kick hounds etc. 
ok...il get off my soapbox now and go feed the horses...


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## MerrySherryRider (9 November 2010)

Paddydou said:



			Ah see I do... I would hate to let my old boy down... 

Mind you he hates plaits and just wants to get going at the biggest hedges and gates he can find be it out hunting, on a hack, show jumping (bit dull for him as he cant gallop) or his most favourite thing going cross country... He will even make up obsticals to jump such as a photographers car, a trailer, the odd sheep... So you see it can get a bit hairy at times and I want as much to grab onto as I can! We tend to get into a bit of trouble when we go out together as we are always looking for the next adventure hence why I don't ride much at all these days - we just have fun remembering instead!

Its seems we are singing the same song but my version is from memory which is a touch rose tinted I will admit!
		
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He sounds like a fun boy - bit too fun for me !


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## Alec Swan (9 November 2010)

h_r,

I fail to see your argument with P_d's post.  The two run,  more or less parallel!!  A good post,  none the less.

Alec.


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## MerrySherryRider (9 November 2010)

Alec Swan said:



			h_r,

I fail to see your argument with P_d's post.  The two run,  more or less parallel!!  A good post,  none the less.

Alec.
		
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A few tweaks Alec, call me contrary, I love debate with open minded people.


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## Judgemental (10 November 2010)

Alec Swan said:



			Now then,  J_M,  as you started this thread,  and as a simple courtesy to Paddydou,  perhaps you could offer your thoughts.

Alec.
		
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Alec I have lost interest - nothing is going to change legally before 2012 and even then, I have my doubts.

John Holliday's piece in the H & H of 28 October, page 21 reflects my current and future views, in particular where he says and I quote from his penultimate paragraph, "anybody who thinks the status quo is better than repeal is an idiot".


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## rosie fronfelen (10 November 2010)

thats a fine thing,leaving people in the lurch who believed in you and listened to you-( not including me i hasten to add) you are unbelieveable, literally, a person not to be trusted or listened to!!


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## Judgemental (10 November 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			thats a fine thing,leaving people in the lurch who believed in you and listened to you-( not including me i hasten to add) you are unbelieveable, literally, a person not to be trusted or listened to!!
		
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Rosie, my view is a direct refelection of the announcement, since this thread was started, that nothing legally will be attempted to be resolved prior to 2012.

Tell me what I should now be advocating. If you want honesty, I am completely lost as to what is the right line to follow.

I am a follower (reader of H &H) of John Holliday, who writes in H & H and is clearly the one chosen by the Editor to reflect views. I share John's views, what more do you want in terms of transparency?

Furthermore, I was invited by Alec to contribute as a matter of courtesy.


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## rosie fronfelen (10 November 2010)

i can read posts actually, but for someone who has always had plenty to say i find it strange that you "have lost interest"! or, is it for some other reason? remember, we know nothing about you!!!So, what and where are you doing til 2012?


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## EAST KENT (10 November 2010)

Oh b......r,just when it looked safe to go in the water.......


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## Judgemental (10 November 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			i can read posts actually, but for someone who has always had plenty to say i find it strange that you "have lost interest"! or, is it for some other reason? remember, we know nothing about you!!!So, what and where are you doing til 2012?
		
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Well there's an question. Allow me to gaze into my Crystal Ball.

Pottering after hounds hither and thither perhaps with some visiting thrown in for good measure. But by the sound of things I will not be welcome in the Welsh Hills?

Pottering around on the horses.

For the avoidance of doubt, the "lost interest" refers to arguing the toss on this thread and elsewhere.


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## Simsar (10 November 2010)

Going back to the original post (kind of). If they were to try and ban hunting in France, do we think they would block the ports again as they seem to do for most things?

Why are we as British not more inclined to fight for what we believe in, perhaps we should follow our foreign friends lead!?


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## rosie fronfelen (10 November 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Well there's an question. Allow me to gaze into my Crystal Ball.

Pottering after hounds hither and thither perhaps with some visiting thrown in for good measure. But by the sound of things I will not be welcome in the Welsh Hills?

Pottering around on the horses.

For the avoidance of doubt, the "lost interest" refers to arguing the toss on this thread and elsewhere.
		
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 you are most welcome here to hunt as long as we know who you are, thats not too much to ask surely? As a matter of interest, how many horses do you have and i assume you have grooms?


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## Paddydou (10 November 2010)

Simsar said:



			Why are we as British not more inclined to fight for what we believe in, perhaps we should follow our foreign friends lead!?
		
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Because we all drink tea then hope the nasty little anoyance will go away... Its the British way. 

If there is one thing I admire about the French its their balls. They really do know how to throw a good protest don't they. We just plod along with a few placards and the odd larger lout. Nope - got to hand it to the French for their passionate demo's. They do them very well.


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## EAST KENT (10 November 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			you are most welcome here to hunt as long as we know who you are, thats not too much to ask surely? As a matter of interest, how many horses do you have and i assume you have grooms?
		
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Oh come off it Rosie..we`ll never get the truth on that,reckon my theory is probably very near it!


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## JanetGeorge (10 November 2010)

Paddydou said:



			If there is one thing I admire about the French its their balls. They really do know how to throw a good protest don't they.
		
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Mmm - with a notable handful of exceptions they didn't do so well against the Nazis!




			Why are we as British not more inclined to fight for what we believe in
		
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I think the British ARE prepared to fight - it's their good manners and readiness to listen to their leaders that lets them down!  (I can say that because I'm not British!)

Think back to the Countryside Rally of 1997 and the first BIG March (the March, March!) of 1998!  Blair and his Cabinet were bricking it after that - the dear old BFSS had cast aside its pipe and slippers and rallied the troops - and the troops responded amazingly!  If we'd KEPT that momentum - and kept Labour SCARED of us - the ban would not have happened!

But what did we do??  We merged the BFSS with the totally pointless (and broke) Countryside Movement and the equally irrelevent Countryside Business Group to form the 'Countryside Alliance' - pi**ing off the NFU, CLA, and a plethora of other rural organisations which were our natural friends and allies in the process.  We got a nice new cuddly image and a host of new (largely irrelevent) issues to 'fight' - and we LOOKED like hunting was not THAT important to us!

We got Labour friendly leaders and a wet and useless CE to replace RH-T - and adopted a softly/softly approach - let's be FRIENDS with Labour!!  It was the stupidest idea ever - who on earth cuddles up to a piranha!

It was SO obviously a disaster from the start!  A couple of years later I was doing a debate with that RARE animal - an intelligent Labour MP (sadly, he's dead now!)  He told me afterwards that Labour was no longer afraid of the hunting issue - as all they would have to do was to provide some extra funding for rural transport and rural services and the CA would 'rollover' on hunting!!  And the majority of Labour MPs BELIEVED it!

The ban on hunting did not happen because our supporters wouldn't 'fight' - it happened because of lousy leadership!


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## rosie fronfelen (10 November 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			Oh come off it Rosie..we`ll never get the truth on that,reckon my theory is probably very near it!

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Isuppose you are right--as soon as i ask a question he goes under the bridge, IF he wants a days hunting then we are obliged to know who he is!


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## Paddydou (10 November 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			Think back to the Countryside Rally of 1997 and the first BIG March (the March, March!) of 1998!  Blair and his Cabinet were bricking it after that - the dear old BFSS had cast aside its pipe and slippers and rallied the troops - and the troops responded amazingly!  If we'd KEPT that momentum - and kept Labour SCARED of us - the ban would not have happened!
		
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Those are times that will never be forgotten. The first and last times my father has ever been to London! Seeing him on the underground was a revelation I can tell you! Trying to convince a colour blind old man that we are on the right train and those ones are different ones was interesting I can tell you!

We were marching with a real mix of people and I remember the only trouble I saw being from the antis (about 20 that I saw on a bridge). I was so very proud to be a part of them.

Perhaps we should march again. The bit that struck me the most was the bit where we were all silent. Not one peep was heard but the marching feet. It was amazing. Truely remarkable.

Labour is full of fools. The only one I have ever had any respect for is Tony Benn.


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## Saucisson (10 November 2010)

Paddydou said:



			If there is one thing I admire about the French its their balls. They really do know how to throw a good protest don't they. We just plod along with a few placards and the odd larger lout. Nope - got to hand it to the French for their passionate demo's. They do them very well.
		
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Please don't go this way.  I am not a big Thatcherite but I do believe that she really took the country forward by killing the power of the unions.

These big strikes do nothing more than put money in the pockets of the union leaders and cripple small businesses who are trying to make an honest living.

Personally, I think it's one of GB's biggest strengths that they don't fall foul to this mass manipulation.  For me, it's what Sarko wants for France now because it's impossible for them to move forward without risking mass protests.

If you think it's a brave act of defiance then please try running a small business when the post workers/airport workers/council workers go on strike.


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## Paddydou (10 November 2010)

Saucisson said:



			Please don't go this way.  I am not a big Thatcherite but I do believe that she really took the country forward by killing the power of the unions.

These big strikes do nothing more than put money in the pockets of the union leaders and cripple small businesses who are trying to make an honest living.

Personally, I think it's one of GB's biggest strengths that they don't fall foul to this mass manipulation.  For me, it's what Sarko wants for France now because it's impossible for them to move forward without risking mass protests.

If you think it's a brave act of defiance then please try running a small business when the post workers/airport workers/council workers go on strike.
		
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There are massive differences between Thatcher being forced to close down the mines (because once again Labour had gotten us all into trouble while they were in power... lets not forget that) and Labour buggering about with things that quite frankly need to be kept out of the house of commons... Its like banning conkers... can someone please tell me why there were debates held on that? ok they were small ones but what a waste of time that was...

I am a bit of a thatcherite but I also think that sometimes it would be much better for us to stick up for ourselves and not allow ourselves to be walked all over... pass me a cup of tea the blood pressure is rising!!


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## Saucisson (10 November 2010)

Paddydou said:



			There are massive differences between Thatcher being forced to close down the mines (because once again Labour had gotten us all into trouble while they were in power... lets not forget that) and Labour buggering about with things that quite frankly need to be kept out of the house of commons... Its like banning conkers... can someone please tell me why there were debates held on that? ok they were small ones but what a waste of time that was...

I am a bit of a thatcherite but I also think that sometimes it would be much better for us to stick up for ourselves and not allow ourselves to be walked all over... pass me a cup of tea the blood pressure is rising!! 

Click to expand...

You aren't being walked over.  I know it must feel like that but to me, the UK is one of the last bastions of freedom left in Europe.  I realise that the hunting ban was a big blow for the rural comminity but unfortunatly, Labour said they were going to do it and they won.

Please don't have a revolt!  A lot of people here in the continant love the UK for what it is......stoic and sensible.  If the hunting ban is too be repealed, I am sure it will be done correctly, by the correct terms and in the correct manner.

Sorry, one of my few other posts on the hunting forum was to blast the horrible old ferts that I had the misfortune to work for in the past and I think you were very much a voice of reason which I do respect.

I am not against hunting myself, although I admit I'm not keen on cubbing.  Please bear in mind that an awful lot of Europeans are strongly socialist ( and not "New Labour" socialists).  GB is hanging in there and fighting for business and trade, please don't knock 'em down for this.

There are folks over here who won't even say "bonjour" because I'me riding a horse and am therefore bourgouisie. (I'm from flippin Grantham, Lincs ).

Our UK politicians are fighting a very tough war here in Brussels, give them a chance.


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## rosie fronfelen (10 November 2010)

horserider said:



			Erm.. that'll be me then. Firstly, I'd take issue with Paddydou's inference that the vast majority of city slickers are anti towards their rural friends. Many country born and bred people do not support hunting, some may have been inconvenienced or alienated by first hand experience when encountering the hunt. Some of those city slickers are hunt supporters and may also hunt. Thats what horses on hunting livery are for. I am friends with a few of them who never see or ride their horses in summer, and indeed,a couple who, quite literally only see their horses being loaded onto the box, plaited and tacked up. The image of knowledge country folk supporting the traditions of the countryside are not entirely correct.
Secondly, this preserving tradition is. for me, what alienates many desenters. The image of snobbery and previledge is deliberately cultivated by the hunting faternity. Decide what you want. Is hunting primarily a sport or a tradition with no relevance to the countryside today ? Farmers have moved on, embracing change. Ploughs and heavy horses are a hobby. Equestrianism has moved on. Clothing is about functionality and safety. New textiles have been designed to keep us warm and dry. Modern riders wear hi Viz to be seen and as courtesy to road users, who they hope will slow down for them.
Because riding is seen as elitist by some of the public, many of us try to dispell this image. Dressing up in clothes that are unsuitable for the sport in the 21 st century is vanity.
Do eventers and endurance riders not wear functional kit ? Is visability not a priority for riding out in the country these days ? Should horseowners be prevented from hunting because paying for livery and feed is more essential than a woollen hunting jacket and the rest of the kit ?
Do you want people to hunt or play dress up ? Kindly permitting new comers not to adhere to the correct attire for the first few outings is not enough. If I could hunt regularly without expectation to 'posh up' and bring my unplaited horse ( standing on somefreezing winter morning pulling my horses mane into a series of tight plaits leaves me cold.) - then I'd be there twice a week instead of once in a very blue moon.
		
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Excuse me, but tell me how farmers have moved on- bar having up to date machinery and tractors etc? Is there a new and modern way to keep foxes at bay, if so, please tell me about it?


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## Alec Swan (11 November 2010)

Saucisson,

....stoic and sensible.... is what got us into this mess.  To support that,  consider the last,  factual and excellent post from Mrs. George.

We've been led like sheep.  Enough.

Alec.


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## Simsar (11 November 2010)

Ooooo it's starting to sound a little like a revolution here!!!

Are people starting to realise that it will take a lot more people to storm the HOP to get our point across??

We have been on every march going and it hasn't made a difference is now the time to fight for what we all believe in rather than rolling over and playing dead?

Everything that has been tried so far hasn't worked, why?
Oh yes coz we are British and we go at things *TOO* stoic and sensible, why  haven't we done more to show our outrage at the ban, a few dead carcasses in London, a few people break into the HOP, a few people riot, it goes on and on, a few, a few, a few, we need to stand together and take action and like Alec says stop being sheep!!


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## rosie fronfelen (11 November 2010)

Simsar said:



			Ooooo it's starting to sound a little like a revolution here!!!

Are people starting to realise that it will take a lot more people to storm the HOP to get our point across??

We have been on every march going and it hasn't made a difference is now the time to fight for what we all believe in rather than rolling over and playing dead?

Everything that has been tried so far hasn't worked, why?
Oh yes coz we are British and we go at things *TOO* stoic and sensible, why  haven't we done more to show our outrage at the ban, a few dead carcasses in London, a few people break into the HOP, a few people riot, it goes on and on, a few, a few, a few, we need to stand together and take action and like Alec says stop being sheep!!
		
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The French do seem to get things done, by fair means or foul,we are too laid back and polite as a nation, but its time to go pass that and make our feeling felt!!!


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## Judgemental (11 November 2010)

Saucisson said:



			There are folks over here who won't even say "bonjour" because I'me riding a horse and am therefore bourgouisie. (I'm from flippin Grantham, Lincs
		
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That is extremely funny! LOL


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## Simsar (11 November 2010)

I always thought Greenwich would be a good place to march..............................................
on horseback in 2012!!


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## Paddydou (11 November 2010)

Simsar said:



			I always thought Greenwich would be a good place to march..............................................
on horseback in 2012!!
		
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You really are a marval! What a fantastic idea. Those that can't march on horseback bring their terriers and hounds... Lets get some vuvuzelas as well as the horns and see what happens! Could be chaos!

I don't want to go as far as revolution but I do think that the French have a bloody good point. It is their country and they want to live their lives by their laws and thier way. Hats off to 'em.

Its finding the equilibrium...


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## rosie fronfelen (11 November 2010)

Simsar said:



			I always thought Greenwich would be a good place to march..............................................
on horseback in 2012!!
		
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THAT, Simsar,is a good idea,and every bugger and his cousin will be there!!


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## Simsar (11 November 2010)

Gather the troops, put it on FB/Twitter (you'll have to, I don't know how) the country is coming to London again! Woo-Hoo

We've taken everyone elses S**T for too long now it's time they took ours.......................
Horse S**T that is..

I feel a Braveheart moment coming on................
They may take our lives but they will never take our...............................................

FREEDOM
(bet you all thought I was gonna do the bit where he moons didn't you)


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## Alec Swan (11 November 2010)

Simsar said:



			(bet you all thought I was gonna do the bit where he moons didn't you)

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No dear,  but we lived in hope!!

Alec.


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## Simsar (11 November 2010)

Alec it has been a few years since a man has called me dear, don't know whether I should be flattered or scared?

Simon 

PS. Sarah would probably tell you that you shouldn't live in hope as it's not that great (spots and stretch marks )!


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## EAST KENT (11 November 2010)

Oh Goody..a demo..my fav day out!!When????


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## Alec Swan (11 November 2010)

Simsar said:



			Alec it has been a few years since a man has called me dear, don't know whether I should be flattered or scared?

Simon 

PS. Sarah would probably tell you that you shouldn't live in hope as it's not that great (spots and stretch marks )!
		
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Guess what,  as soon as the edit period had expired,  I thought "Jesus,  what have I said"?!!  Had it not been for your ps,  I'd have thought that Sarah had posted.  You're a brave man,  I'll give you that!!

Alec.


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## Simsar (11 November 2010)

For the record my bum is like a peach!

Sarah.


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## Simsar (11 November 2010)

Simsar said:



			Alec it has been a few years since a man has called me dear, don't know whether I should be flattered or scared?

Simon 

PS. Sarah would probably tell you that you shouldn't live in hope as it's not that great (spots and stretch marks )! This is simon talking

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Back to the subject please.


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## Paddydou (11 November 2010)

Simsar said:



			For the record my bum is like a peach!

Sarah.
		
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So whats Simons like? A pear???

Oh go on the pair of you can lead us all into action with a moon and off we go!

Will you wear kilts and woad as well?

Oh and Simon hands off! It wouldn't be the first time one of my other halves has come out of the closet but I think Alec real wife might be even more anoyed than I if you turned him!


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## Paddydou (11 November 2010)

Simsar said:



			Back to the subject please.
		
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Don't worry Sarah we all know you are gorgeousness personified! 

So when are you going to get us all running with these moons?


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## Simsar (12 November 2010)

Paddydou said:



			Don't worry Sarah we all know you are gorgeousness personified!  LMAO if only. xSo when are you going to get us all running with these moons?
		
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Thinking cap is on.


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## Paddydou (12 November 2010)

Simsar said:



			Thinking cap is on. 

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I am sure we will all be there, not just to see Simon in a kilt you know but for other far more important matters in hand as well!

I tell you what I shall bring the cuffs so we can cuff you up and save the police the bother... Only this time can I come with you please!


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