# Horse being hit around the head



## StarcatcherWilliam (7 November 2021)

Anyone else seen this:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1457356669919301635


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## cauda equina (7 November 2021)

Some pretty crappy behaviour there, effectively punishing the pony for being caught
In the grand scheme of things the RSPCA have probably got more serious abuse cases to worry about


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## Velcrobum (7 November 2021)

That is just plain shocking. Presumably the man on the quad was trying to intervene as she was obviously starting to shout at him when the clip stopped.


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## YorksG (7 November 2021)

I would also want to know the source of the video, and the date an time an possibly context.


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## ycbm (7 November 2021)

Stupid woman. Hunting's in enough trouble without that doing the rounds.


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## ycbm (7 November 2021)

YorksG said:



			I would also want to know the source of the video, and the date an time an possibly context.
		
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I'd be interested to know in what context or from what source that behaviour would ever be an acceptable,  or useful,  way to treat a horse that has just been caught.
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## Fern007 (7 November 2021)

Hopefully another nail in the coffin for the hunt. Carry on chaps your doing a great job !


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## Winters100 (7 November 2021)

Honestly if you are unable to keep your composure you should not be around animals.  Terrible behavior, for sure the RSPCA have better things to do, but she should be ashamed of herself.


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## cauda equina (7 November 2021)

Not a good example to set to the kids either

ETA I wonder if CP would be so quick to summon the RSPCA if this had happened at a fun ride/show/pc rally, in fact anywhere other than hunting


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## palo1 (7 November 2021)

What an incredibly stupid, unfair and unpleasant thing to do to that horse/pony.   You see people doing horrible things to horses at lots of venues but honestly, hunting doesn't need people like that. 

Thank goodness that is generally considered unacceptable.  Vile.


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## Pearlsasinger (7 November 2021)

What on earth did she expect to achieve? And if she was angry, she should have been angry with the girl who dropped the lead-rope, not the horse who politely allowed himself to be caught.
While it is hardly a case for RSPCA, she certainly didn't cover herself in glory, did she?  If she is prepared to behave like that in public and on camera, you have to wonder how she carries on  at home.


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## Clodagh (7 November 2021)

Stupid bloody woman.


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## LadyGascoyne (7 November 2021)

I don’t get it? What’s the point? The pony let itself be caught. Next time it probably won’t. I don’t understand the logic?

Apparently it’s the Cottesmore hunt.


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## palo1 (7 November 2021)

I went to buy a horse a few years ago; a 3 year old that had seen a bit of the world out showing.  It sounded and looked like a lovely youngster.  When I got to the yard I was told not to go into the stables (any of them) on my own.  I wouldn't have done that in any case on someone's yard but didn't think much of it till the owners/producers told me that all of their horses would kick or bite if approached in the stable.  I was feeling very uncomfortable at that point and about to walk away when one of the owners went to a stable, whacked the horse in it with a plastic bucket (to move him away from the door apparantly - due to the 'biting problem').  At that point I did walk away. 

Some people with horses/some people are just grim and should not be allowed anywhere near animals.


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## Chianti (7 November 2021)

YorksG said:



			I would also want to know the source of the video, and the date an time an possibly context.
		
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Hertfordshire Hunt Saboteurs posted it on Twitter. They say it was yesterday. It looks someone was trying to load the horse and it got away. Would any context make it acceptable behaviour? I can't think of any context in which kicking and hitting a horse about the head is seen as appropriate animal management.


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## Peglo (7 November 2021)

Does anyone else think that the horses reaction seemed used to that behaviour?

if someone did that to mine they would not have taken it that well. 
Poor horse. Hope it was just a one off but it’s worrying they would ever think that was ok, never mind in public.


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## YorksG (7 November 2021)

Chianti said:



			Hertfordshire Hunt Saboteurs posted it on Twitter. They say it was yesterday. It looks someone was trying to load the horse and it got away. Would any context make it acceptable behaviour? I can't think of any context in which kicking and hitting a horse about the head is seen as appropriate animal management.
		
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No I do not think her behaviour is acceptable, but I do find the posting of such things, with no attribution, highly suspect. It is impossible to tell if this was a genuine situation, or possibly one set up just for the camera


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## MissTyc (7 November 2021)

It's bad horsemanship, animalship ... It's unpleasant to watch and old-fashioned. The pony came straight to the little group when it broke free - what a lovely pony, didn't deserve that handling.  Pony looks like the sort than will forgive and move on.  Not all are like that.


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## nagblagger (7 November 2021)

If someone did that to one of mine it would be 'beware of the owner' , not the horse!!


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## Clodagh (7 November 2021)

It’s an awful thing to do and happens up and down the country at shows, showjumping events etc. People lose their temper and beat horses all the time. It is never acceptable.
I imagine she’d had a bad day and took it out in the horse. Bet she’s a charming individual!


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## Parrotperson (7 November 2021)

YorksG said:



			I would also want to know the source of the video, and the date an time an possibly context.
		
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context?!!!!!  What context !

move eotked with horses for 40 odd years in yards inc hunting. This is NEVER justified!!!
Disgusting. But there are people old hunting that follow the ‘beat ‘em’ bible even these days.


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## Chianti (7 November 2021)

YorksG said:



			No I do not think her behaviour is acceptable, but I do find the posting of such things, with no attribution, highly suspect. It is impossible to tell if this was a genuine situation, or possibly one set up just for the camera
		
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I'm sorry - are you suggesting that these are multiple hunt sabs who have got dressed up as hunters, got hold of lorries, horses, a quad bike and staged the incident? Really? If so then the woman doing the abuse deserves an Oscar because the expression on her face seems to indicate that she's rather enjoying what she's doing.


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## PapaverFollis (7 November 2021)

Seen worse at livery yards. But yeah. Still bl**dy awful.


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## Parrotperson (7 November 2021)

YorksG said:



			No I do not think her behaviour is acceptable, but I do find the posting of such things, with no attribution, highly suspect. It is impossible to tell if this was a genuine situation, or possibly one set up just for the camera
		
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why would you set that up for the camera? Genuinely want to know to what purpose?


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## Tiddlypom (7 November 2021)

YorksG said:



			No I do not think her behaviour is acceptable, but I do find the posting of such things, with no attribution, highly suspect. It is impossible to tell if this was a genuine situation, or possibly one set up just for the camera
		
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Set up for the camera??? Any suggestions how, and why? Was she forced to kick and strike the horse? Her expression shows pure fury.

It is posted by, and attributed to, a sab group. You may well not approve of sabs, but that doesn't necessarily that this footage is not just what it seems - a woman dressed in hunting attire losing her temper with a horse and abusing it.

Just when hunting is already at its lowest ebb...


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## palo1 (7 November 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Set up for the camera??? Any suggestions how, and why? Was she forced to kick and strike the horse?

It is posted by, and attributed to, a sab group. You may well not approve of sabs, but that doesn't necessarily that this footage is not just what it seems - a woman losing her temper with a horse and abusing it.

Just when hunting is already at its lowest ebb...
		
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Yes but it would be equally easy for anyone to find something similar on any livery yard, at any competition or any private yard - this is just the most basic form of anti-hunting propaganda.  It's not, sadly, unusual to see horses being abused - there is no excuse for it but this behaviour is a very long way from being directly related to any hunting activity.  CP comes across as being spiteful in this particular incident tbh.  I know he hates hunting but this is a low, and not very effective blow.


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## Chianti (7 November 2021)

Incident now trending on Twitter under @RSPCA. I don't think this is over for the 'lady' in the video.


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## SaddlePsych'D (7 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			Yes but it would be equally easy for anyone to find something similar on any livery yard, at any competition or any private yard - this is just the most basic form of anti-hunting propaganda.  It's not, sadly, unusual to see horses being abused - there is no excuse for it but this behaviour is a very long way from being directly related to any hunting activity.  CP comes across as being spiteful in this particular incident tbh.  I know he hates hunting but this is a low, and not very effective blow.
		
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That's not really the point though is it - these actions were caught on camera and shared with the public, and they were part of a hunt activity at the time so it _is_ going to reflect badly on hunting. 

Probably not one for the RSPCA but the hunt concerned seriously need to think about how this reflects on them and take action. I hope there are consequences for the individual involved (i.e. no more hunting for a start).

Perhaps there should be more filming at other events, I've seen some pretty shoddy behaviour at competitions myself and a friend reported someone for abusing a pony in a warm up ring (I'd argue a child protection issue as well given how they described what was going on but that's a separate issue) but nothing was done because the steward/no officials saw it.


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## Goldenstar (7 November 2021)

Worked though the little monkey loaded .
Not the worse bit of horse handling I have seen .


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## Clodagh (7 November 2021)

SaddlePsych'D said:



			That's not really the point though is it - these actions were caught on camera and shared with the public, and they were part of a hunt activity at the time so it _is_ going to reflect badly on hunting.

Probably not one for the RSPCA but the hunt concerned seriously need to think about how this reflects on them and take action. I hope there are consequences for the individual involved (i.e. no more hunting for a start).

Perhaps there should be more filming at other events, I've seen some pretty shoddy behaviour at competitions myself and a friend reported someone for abusing a pony in a warm up ring (I'd argue a child protection issue as well given how they described what was going on but that's a separate issue) but nothing was done because the steward/no officials saw it.
		
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If they had then no doubt someone would have been related to someone who knew someone. Nothing ever seems to get done about public abuse.
Tbh the woman here is probably having enough punishment right now. May make her think in future. 
Perhaps she shouldn’t have left an incompetent child to load the pony in the first place.


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## Clodagh (7 November 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			Worked though the little monkey loaded .
Not the worse bit of horse handling I have seen .
		
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So the ends justify the means? It would have loaded the first time if it had been pointed at the ramp.


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## Baywonder (7 November 2021)

It's a pity someone didn't give _her_ a kick and a couple of lashes with the lead rope.


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## Goldenstar (7 November 2021)

No I am not saying that it’s just that it’s just another social media witch hunt of course it’s bad behaviour .
Did the horse suffer long term harm no I would get more indignant about people work horses with shoes that have been on for eight weeks .


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## meleeka (7 November 2021)

Peglo said:



			Does anyone else think that the horses reaction seemed used to that behaviour?

if someone did that to mine they would not have taken it that well. 
Poor horse. Hope it was just a one off but it’s worrying they would ever think that was ok, never mind in public.
		
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Yes!  That was exactly my thoughts.  If I had done that to my horses they’d have been terrified and probably legged it.  They certainly wouldn’t have loaded calmly straight after.  It makes you wonder what she does behind closed doors 😡


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## meleeka (7 November 2021)

There was a recent prosecution local to me for something very similar. 


	
	





__ https://www.facebook.com/107357764305723/posts/405372501170913



The video is in the comments.  I struggle to see how so many blatant neglect cases are less likely to face prosecution, but it could just be that cases like this are easier to prove.


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## Winters100 (7 November 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			Worked though the little monkey loaded .
Not the worse bit of horse handling I have seen .
		
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On the other hand one of mine can be less than keen to load on occasions.  Giving him a little time to look and think while being calm and confident works.  Same result, different method. 

Did not look to me as if this pony needed to be kicked and hit in the face to load, I am pretty sure that a competent adult could have easily loaded him without such a display of childish temper.


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## Auslander (7 November 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			Did the horse suffer long term harm no I would get more indignant about people work horses with shoes that have been on for eight weeks .
		
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I'd rather a horse went 9 weeks between shoeings, than got hit around the face for doing absolutely nothing wrong!
Have you watched the video properly? The kid stood beside the ramp, and expected the pony to load itself when it wasn't even presented at the ramp. She dropped the rope, and the pony headed off to join its mates.


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## palo1 (7 November 2021)

Chianti said:



			Incident now trending on Twitter under @RSPCA. I don't think this is over for the 'lady' in the video.
		
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I don't think the RSPCA are going to be delighted though...they have huge amounts of incredibly pressing and difficult work to do without being put under pressure to deal with what is probably a very well looked after horse albeit with a silly cow of an owner.  The RSPCA do NOT want to be deluged with this kind of thing...


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## ycbm (7 November 2021)

YorksG said:



			No I do not think her behaviour is acceptable, but I do find the posting of such things, with no attribution, highly suspect. It is impossible to tell if this was a genuine situation, or possibly one set up just for the camera
		
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You think the woman beating the horse was a hunt saboteur who deliberately had the horse let go in order to hit it when someone brought it back to her so that someone could film it?  I think that might be stretching credibility a bit, even for  supporters of fox hunting.  .


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## YorksG (7 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			You think the woman beating the horse was a hunt saboteur who deliberately had the horse let go in order to hit it when someone brought it back to her so that someone could film it?  I think that might be stretching credibility a bit, even for  supporters of fox hunting.  .
		
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I am not particularly a supporter of mounted hunts, however I do not like people starting witch hunts on social media, and have come across some very underhanded methods of "evidence " gathering from people who have a point which they wish to push at the public.


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## palo1 (7 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			You think the woman beating the horse was a hunt saboteur who deliberately had the horse let go in order to hit it when someone brought it back to her so that someone could film it?  I think that might be stretching credibility a bit, even for  supporters of fox hunting.  .
		
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I don't think this incident was stitched up fwiw but I can imagine, potentially that the woman and children had been on the receiving end of some pretty relentless and unpleasant abuse from the filming sabs.  I have heard and seen people really, seriously provoked by sabs.  There is NO excuse at all but I expect the woman just wanted to get the hell out of the situation and with a child unable to help and possibly other things going on she may well have lost her temper. She should have kicked and hit the box or tyres instead of the pony if she wanted to express those feelings (probably best not but...).  I think the bloke on the quad was trying to either help or calm her down.

This may well have been exactly the response sabs were filming for. More fool her for falling for it if that was the case but not everyone can cope with abuse and provocation.  She should NOT have involved the poor blooming horse!!


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## saddlesore (7 November 2021)

That was awful to watch, they clearly don’t deserve the company of animals 😞


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## ycbm (7 November 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			Worked though the little monkey loaded .
Not the worse bit of horse handling I have seen .
		
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Do you think he went on because he was kicked and slapped around the face far too long  after the first attempt by an incompetent person failed for him to connect the two events,  and nowhere near the lorry ramp?  

She hit him because she was angry and is a forceful person.  He went on because he recognised a more determined person,  I agree.  I don't agree that it needed the bit in between for him to load for a more committed handler, or that it helped. 
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## ycbm (7 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			I don't think this incident was stitched up fwiw but I can imagine, potentially that the woman and children had been on the receiving end of some pretty relentless and unpleasant abuse from the filming sabs.  I have heard and seen people really, seriously provoked by sabs.  There is NO excuse at all but I expect the woman just wanted to get the hell out of the situation and with a child unable to help and possibly other things going on she may well have lost her temper. She should have kicked and hit the box or tyres instead of the pony if she wanted to express those feelings (probably best not but...).  I think the bloke on the quad was trying to either help or calm her down.

This may well have been exactly the response sabs were filming for. More fool her for falling for it if that was the case but not everyone can cope with abuse and provocation.  She should NOT have involved the poor blooming horse!!
		
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Do you have the remotest bit of evidence that she was riled by sabs?  If we're going down that line of imagining what the situation might have been,   maybe we should query if the sabs were out because the Cottesmore hunt fox and her spoiled day fox hunting was what made her mad? 
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## BlackHorseNemo (7 November 2021)

Disgraceful behaviour - name and shame her!


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## mini_b (7 November 2021)

Peglo said:



			Does anyone else think that the horses reaction seemed used to that behaviour?

if someone did that to mine they would not have taken it that well.
Poor horse. Hope it was just a one off but it’s worrying they would ever think that was ok, never mind in public.
		
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i noticed that too. It was quite stoic about it poor sod.

if she carries on like that in full view, knowing they have monitors/Sabs filming, what’s she like at home?


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## mini_b (7 November 2021)

BlackHorseNemo said:



			Disgraceful behaviour - name and shame her!
		
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this name and shame has to stop it’s almost medieval.

yes it’s bloody awful behaviour but doxxing folk opening them up to a barrage of hate from THOUSANDS of people on the internet is also disproportionate. 
she will be getting enough sh*t (quite rightly so!) from those who have seen it and know it’s her.


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## Sandales (7 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			I don't think this incident was stitched up fwiw but I can imagine, potentially that the woman and children had been on the receiving end of some pretty relentless and unpleasant abuse from the filming sabs.  I have heard and seen people really, seriously provoked by sabs.  There is NO excuse at all but I expect the woman just wanted to get the hell out of the situation and with a child unable to help and possibly other things going on she may well have lost her temper. She should have kicked and hit the box or tyres instead of the pony if she wanted to express those feelings (probably best not but...).  I think the bloke on the quad was trying to either help or calm her down.

This may well have been exactly the response sabs were filming for. More fool her for falling for it if that was the case but not everyone can cope with abuse and provocation.  She should NOT have involved the poor blooming horse!!
		
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Whatever the sabs may have done is irrelevant, she behaved terribly.

If the sabs had been winding her up and she behaved like this even though the sabs were there, I question what she's like out of public view.
Its always a worry for me this sort of behaviour, animal abuse can be a stepping stone to abusing family not saying that's the case here but it has been proven.


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## YorksG (7 November 2021)

Sandales said:



			Whatever the sabs may have done is irrelevant, she behaved terribly.

If the sabs had been winding her up and she behaved like this even though the sabs were there, I question what she's like out of public view.
Its always a worry for me this sort of behaviour, animal abuse can be a stepping stone to abusing family not saying that's the case here but it has been proven.
		
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That's not quite  correct, there is evidence that people who abuse and damage people do begin with harming animals, however there is not a causal link and the harming of animals, which is then followed by harming people, usually begins in adolescence


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## Clodagh (7 November 2021)

I have walloped horses in the past, I am not a fluffy handler at all, but you do have to set them up to succeed.
To my mind the fact she was hunting is irrelevant, except of course it wouldn’t have got the exposure if she had been doing dressage, for instance.


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## Peglo (7 November 2021)

YorksG said:



			I am not particularly a supporter of mounted hunts, however I do not like people starting witch hunts on social media, and have come across some very underhanded methods of "evidence " gathering from people who have a point which they wish to push at the public.
		
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i fully agree. I don’t know what CP thinks of hunting but he, as a public figure, is trying to rally hate online against a member of the public is actually quite shocking. He must have a lot of followers and probably some very extremist followers so it’s actually really awful he would do this, regardless of what she did. I think on sabs pages is one thing but he is putting this much farther out there for more hate to gather.


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## cauda equina (7 November 2021)

deleted


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## Tiddlypom (7 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			I know he hates hunting but this is a low, and not very effective blow.
		
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Au contraire, this is is going to prove to be very effective indeed at stirring up even more anti hunt outrage.

Be very afraid, hunting peeps.

I'm quite shocked at the pro hunt coming out with the 'nothing to see here, move along folks' type replies. You must be used to seeing this type of horse handling.


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## Koweyka (7 November 2021)

I hope this link works, the Whip from the Flint and Denbigh hitting his horse with the hard end of the whip yesterday.

I believe the woman in the video is known, animal abuse wherever it happens should not be tolerated.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1457397736060428290


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## Sandstone1 (7 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			I don't think this incident was stitched up fwiw but I can imagine, potentially that the woman and children had been on the receiving end of some pretty relentless and unpleasant abuse from the filming sabs.  I have heard and seen people really, seriously provoked by sabs.  There is NO excuse at all but I expect the woman just wanted to get the hell out of the situation and with a child unable to help and possibly other things going on she may well have lost her temper. She should have kicked and hit the box or tyres instead of the pony if she wanted to express those feelings (probably best not but...).  I think the bloke on the quad was trying to either help or calm her down.

This may well have been exactly the response sabs were filming for. More fool her for falling for it if that was the case but not everyone can cope with abuse and provocation.  She should NOT have involved the poor blooming horse!!
		
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So once again its all the sabs fault!    For Gods sake, thats really scrapping the barrel.


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## Winters100 (7 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			Do you have the remotest bit of evidence that she was riled by sabs?  If we're going down that line of imagining what the situation might have been,   maybe we should query if the sabs were out because the Cottesmore hunt fox and her spoiled day fox hunting was what made her mad?
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I agree, whether or not she was riled by the sabs is irrelevant.  

If you go hunting you know that you will meet with opposition, and if you are not able to retain your composure in the face of this then you should stay home.  There is absolutely no excuse for doing this to the horse, it served no useful purpose, and to me it seems to be very arrogant that she was happy to do it knowing that she was most likely being filmed.

Likewise any of us who spend significant time around children know that they can seriously test your patience on occasions.  Despite this we never hear anyone saying 'she slapped her baby round the face, but he had riled her up by crying for hours, so it was understandable' or 'he kicked his 13 year old, but the boy had been asked 25 times to turn the music down, so it is a valid excuse'.    

Yes, we are all human and make mistakes, but as adults we should be able to control our temper, or if we are not at least to have the self awareness not to put ourselves in situations where we may take out our temper on a child or an animal.  Did she imagine that any sabs present would be politely asking her to reconsider her decision to hunt?  I really cannot be sympathetic whatever may have happened to upset her, as people with poor impulse control should have the common sense to avoid such situations.


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## Sandstone1 (7 November 2021)

Koweyka said:



			I hope this link works, the Whip from the Flint and Denbigh hitting his horse with the hard end of the whip yesterday.

I believe the woman in the video is known, animal abuse wherever it happens should not be tolerated.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1457397736060428290

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I guess the sabs did that too!


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## Koweyka (7 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			I don't think this incident was stitched up fwiw but I can imagine, potentially that the woman and children had been on the receiving end of some pretty relentless and unpleasant abuse from the filming sabs.  I have heard and seen people really, seriously provoked by sabs.  There is NO excuse at all but I expect the woman just wanted to get the hell out of the situation and with a child unable to help and possibly other things going on she may well have lost her temper. She should have kicked and hit the box or tyres instead of the pony if she wanted to express those feelings (probably best not but...).  I think the bloke on the quad was trying to either help or calm her down.

This may well have been exactly the response sabs were filming for. More fool her for falling for it if that was the case but not everyone can cope with abuse and provocation.  She should NOT have involved the poor blooming horse!!
		
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For the love of god, is there anything you will not blame the sabs for !

She is a seasoned hunter plenty of photos of her out hunting with the little pony. She is vile, some of the comments almost attempting to justify this are shocking. There is no situation that exists ever that calls for behaviour like that.


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## ArklePig (7 November 2021)

Some serious mental gymnastics going on here by previous posters. It is entirely possible, to hate sabs, without the need to justify abuse.

This is absolutely disgusting behaviour and anyone calling for 'context' or saying 'well it worked' needs their head checked.


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## Koweyka (7 November 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			I guess the sabs did that too!
		
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Hey we also caused Covid and are solely responsible for climate change 🙄 everything is the sabs fault 🥱


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## YorksG (7 November 2021)

As an aside, whatever happened about the arson that Packham claimed was directed against him?


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## planete (7 November 2021)

YorksG said:



			As an aside, whatever happened about the arson that Packham claimed was directed against him?
		
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Is that a distraction tactic?


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## CMcC (7 November 2021)

YorksG said:



			As an aside, whatever happened about the arson that Packham claimed was directed against him?
		
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Not a particular fan of Chris Packham but I think if you have a car driven into the gates of your home and then set alight you can probably ”claim” the arson was directed against you!


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## YorksG (7 November 2021)

CMcC said:



			Not a particular fan of Chris Packham but I think if you have a car driven into the gates of your home and then set alight you can probably ”claim” the arson was directed against you!
		
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Not if it is pure chance that a stolen vehicle ends up there, with another one approximately a mile away, or was that aimed at another person?


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## Sandstone1 (7 November 2021)

Koweyka said:



			Hey we also caused Covid and are solely responsible for climate change 🙄 everything is the sabs fault 🥱
		
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Certainly seems like it.  About time the pro hunters took responsibility for their own behaviour.  There would be no need for sabs and monitors if they didnt break the law.   The way some of them treat animals is a disgrace.


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## YorksG (7 November 2021)

planete said:



			Is that a distraction tactic?  

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No, merely a suggestion that Peckham using social media to shout about "injustice" isn't always as correct as he would like people to believe


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## Amymay (7 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			I'd be interested to know in what context or from what source that behaviour would ever be an acceptable,  or useful,  way to treat a horse that has just been caught.
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I absolutely agree.  Appalling behaviour- what a first class b!tch


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## Cherryblossom (7 November 2021)

For people like me, who are neither pro nor anti hunting, the response of the pro hunting crew is more likely to push me the other way. Punishing a horse for doing the right thing is bad horsemanship, hitting a horse in the face is never okay, and instead of condemning it, the attempts to justify it, are very upsetting to see, and ill thought out. 

And saying that the sabs presence upset her, is like saying that social workers being in your house stressed you out so much that they caused you to hit your kid in the face. If you can’t behave when people you know are judging you are watching, then there’s no chance of me believing you can behave better behind closed doors.


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## Amymay (7 November 2021)

Cottesmore Hunt. She should be easy enough to _hunt_ down…..


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## Amymay (7 November 2021)




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## palo1 (7 November 2021)

Koweyka said:



			For the love of god, is there anything you will not blame the sabs for !

She is a seasoned hunter plenty of photos of her out hunting with the little pony. She is vile, some of the comments almost attempting to justify this are shocking. There is no situation that exists ever that calls for behaviour like that.
		
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I certainly didn't say her behaviour was justified.  The behaviour filmed from the Flint and Denbigh is appalling.


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## YorksG (7 November 2021)

Amymay said:



			Cottesmore Hunt. She should be easy enough to _hunt_ down…..
		
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Do you believe that this should be what happens?


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## Amymay (7 November 2021)

YorksG said:



			No I do not think her behaviour is acceptable, but I do find the posting of such things, with no attribution, highly suspect. It is impossible to tell if this was a genuine situation, or possibly one set up just for the camera
		
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What, you mean she was pretending to hit and kick the horse?? 😏😏


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## YorksG (7 November 2021)

Amymay said:



			What, you mean she was pretending to hit and kick the horse?? 😏😏
		
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Not at all, but there is no attribution, no way of telling where or when this happened.  It is the sharing, on social media, with a specific agenda, which I find utterly distasteful. The woman's behaviour is not acceptable, but neither is it acceptable of Peckham to post this imo


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## Goldenstar (7 November 2021)

Go then hunt her down join those seeking destroy people who are unfortunate to get a transgression posted on the snake pit which social media .


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## Sandstone1 (7 November 2021)

There is NO excuse to treat a horse like that.


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## Amymay (7 November 2021)

YorksG said:



			Do you believe that this should be what happens?
		
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Identify would have been a more correct word to use. Apologies.


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## Tiddlypom (7 November 2021)

Rupert Evelyn of ITV is on it. He is awaiting comments from the Hunting Office, the RSPCA and the Cottesmore Hunt.


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## Amymay (7 November 2021)

However anyone wants to spin it.  It’s absolutely appalling behaviour, and I hope she’s censored for her actions.


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## palo1 (7 November 2021)

YorksG said:



			Not at all, but there is no attribution, no way of telling where or when this happened.  It is the sharing, on social media, with a specific agenda, which I find utterly distasteful. The woman's behaviour is not acceptable, but neither is it acceptable of Peckham to post this imo
		
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CP should have simply reported this rather than whipping up a social media hate storm for the sake of his own agenda.  That is vile, irresponsible and in the context, potentially dangerous behaviour even whilst the behaviour of this woman is also vile. 

If hunters are to be afraid then the next targets will be shooters and their dogs, racing, then of course, or possibly simultaneously farmers and finally pet owners, meat eaters etc.


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## palo1 (7 November 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Rupert Evelyn of ITV is on it. He is awaiting comments from the Hunting Office, the RSPCA and the Cottesmore Hunt.
		
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What a surprise!! Rupert Evelyn is not in any way an independent journalist.  His links with hunt sabs and others are rather too cosy for that...ITV are already under pressure about RE's contacts and associates.


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## Sandstone1 (7 November 2021)

If you can treat a horse like that when people are watching, what goes on behind closed doors.   If I had seen her doing it she would have had me to deal with.   Pro hunters can make as many excuses as they like but that is just unacceptable behaviour as is the video of the huntsman hitting his horse round the head.
Animals deserve respect.


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## Asha (7 November 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			Go then hunt her down join those seeking destroy people who are unfortunate to get a transgression posted on the snack pit which social media .
		
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A transgression? She kicked and hit the horse . Absolutely no excuse whatsoever.
Seriously disappointed in your response .


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## Sandstone1 (7 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			CP should have simply reported this rather than whipping up a social media hate storm for the sake of his own agenda.  That is vile, irresponsible and in the context, potentially dangerous behaviour even whilst the behaviour of this woman is also vile.

If hunters are to be afraid then the next targets will be shooters and their dogs, racing, then of course, or possibly simultaneously farmers and finally pet owners, meat eaters etc.
		
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Good grief,  just keep it all quiet then, sweep it under the carpet.   Keep your dirty little secrets!


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## Pearlsasinger (7 November 2021)

I have already expressed my opinion of the woman's behaviour but there are some rather odd opinions expressed on this thread.

a) it is obvious that sabs were present, they posted the video.
 b) There is plenty of abuse of both hounds and horses committed by sabs, it's a pity that they don't ask the RSPCA to investigate that.
c) As  some people recognise the woman it would appear that the video is authentic but it certainly would NOT be beyond the realms of possibility for a group of people to setup such a scenario, purely with the intention of posting online and stirring up trouble.  We know that in the past, various incidents have been filmed completely out of context and used to stir up  emotions.
d) CP made a great deal of fuss in the MSM about the arson committed  near to his gate.  He did not correct the impression he had given, or if he did, it certainly wasn't given equal prominence.
e)it is not unreasonable to question the legitimacy of anything posted online -in fact it is good practice
f) There has been an outcry recently about threats made online, with condemnation from  all round and yet there have been posters advocating 'hunting down' etc


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## Sandstone1 (7 November 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I have already expressed my opinion of the woman's behaviour but there are some rather odd opinions expressed on this thread.

a) it is obvious that sabs were present, they posted the video.
b) There is plenty of abuse of both hounds and horses committed by sabs, it's a pity that they don't ask the RSPCA to investigate that.
c) As  some people recognise the woman it would appear that the video is authentic but it certainly would NOT be beyond the realms of possibility for a group of people to setup such a scenario, purely with the intention of posting online and stirring up trouble.  We know that in the past, various incidents have been filmed completely out of context and used to stir up  emotions.
d) CP made a great deal of fuss in the MSM about the arson committed  near to his gate.  He did not correct the impression he had given, or if he did, it certainly wasn't given equal prominence.
e)it is not unreasonable to question the legitimacy of anything posted online -in fact it is good practice
f) There has been an outcry recently about threats made online, with condemnation from  all round and yet there have been posters advocating 'hunting down' etc
		
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## SO1 (7 November 2021)

I have seen lots of people get frustrated with horses in high pressure situations such a horse not loading or at competitions. It is not pleasant to watch and people should be spoken to and chastised for their behaviour.

At the same time I do think perhaps an incident going viral on social media can destroy someones life and this person is with a child and I think we have to also think about the impact this might have on the child if this person perhaps loses their job or the child is bullied at school. 

Using social media to punish someone should be the last resort especially where there is a child involved. That does not mean I condone her behaviour. 

Hunts are very much in the public eye. If they are not careful then the sabs will tar all horses owners with the same brush and we all may find ourselves being monitored by animals rights activists. Racing has had an issue and so has modern pentathlon. With the event of modern technology anyone of us could find ourselves filmed and on social media. I would never kick my horse or hit him round the head like that but like most people I have used a schooling whip and told my horse off on occasion. 

All every day horse owners should be putting pressure on hunts and other equine disciplines that are in the public eye to make sure they behave in a way that could not be misinterpreted by a member of the general public or is cruel. It has an impact on us all and our reputation within society as horse owners. 

What goes on with the foxes is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes animal cruelty. We are just lucky at the moment that most sabs don't understand what goes on with the horse world and some animal welfare issues involved at all levels and their focus is on the illegal hunting of foxes and there is not enough sabs to monitor other events.


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## palo1 (7 November 2021)

SO1 said:



			I have seen lots of people get frustrated with horses in high pressure situations such a horse not loading or at competitions. It is not pleasant to watch and people should be spoken to and chastised for their behaviour.

At the same time I do think perhaps an incident going viral on social media can destroy someones life and this person is with a child and I think we have to also think about the impact this might have on the child if this person perhaps loses their job or the child is bullied at school.

Using social media to punish someone should be the last resort especially where there is a child involved. That does not mean I condone her behaviour.

Hunts are very much in the public eye. If they are not careful then the sabs will tar all horses owners with the same brush and we all may find ourselves being monitored by animals rights activists. Racing has had an issue and so has modern pentathlon. With the event of modern technology anyone of us could find ourselves filmed and on social media. I would never kick my horse or hit him round the head like that but like most people I have used a schooling whip and told my horse off on occasion.

All every day horse owners should be putting pressure on hunts and other equine disciplines that are in the public eye to make sure they behave in a way that could not be misinterpreted by a member of the general public. It has an impact on us all and our reputation within society as horse owners.

What goes on with the foxes is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes animal cruelty. We are just lucky at the moment that most sabs don't understand what goes on with the horse world and some animal welfare issues involved at all levels and their focus is on the illegal hunting of foxes and there is not enough sabs to monitor other equine events.
		
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Well said.  The obsession of animal 'rights' activists with illegal hunting is just bizarre considering the level of animal abuse and cruelty that does not need masks, tip off lines, aggression and trespass in order to be revealed and reported.

Anyone who is out hunting MUST make sure that their behaviour is absolutely beyond reproach.  Hunting happens very much publicly.  Sadly  a huge amount of animal abuse can easily be hidden away and is not being addressed by organisations who have the ability to do that.


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## stangs (7 November 2021)

If it had been a dog that she kicked, I think far fewer people on here would be talking about “it’s unfair to dox”, “oh but we need context” etc.

There is absolutely no justification for her behaviour - it’s abuse, poor and simple, and you can’t even claim it’s a good ‘training method’. And yet it is common amongst the horsey world, which is exactly why it should be called out. Making this public will not change the attitudes of the people who perform such handling tactics (as certain posters on here have shown), but at very least, it might teach some of the future generation that this is unacceptable, rather than letting them grow numb to such abuse.


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## honetpot (7 November 2021)

Go down enough horse lines at shows, or even the collecting rings, and you will see things like this, and often nobody says anything. Unfortunately the behaviour is not confined to people out hunting, and giving a horse a clout around the head, to' stop it from doing...', is seen as OK, by some.


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## southerncomfort (7 November 2021)

I'm beginning to find the 'whataboutery' on this forum a bit hard to stomach to be honest.

Hitting is hitting.  Violence is violence. The horse doesn't know or care that dobbin down the road suffers much worse abuse, all he knows is that a human hurt him for no reason at all.

Should we let men away with giving the wife a bit of a slap as long as he doesn't break any bones?


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## Flame_ (7 November 2021)

southerncomfort said:



			I'm beginning to find the 'whataboutery' on this forum a bit hard to stomach to be honest.

Hitting is hitting.  Violence is violence. The horse doesn't know or care that dobbin down the road suffers much worse abuse, all he knows is that a human hurt him for no reason at all.

Should we let men away with giving the wife a bit of a slap as long as he doesn't break any bones?
		
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TBF it's more reasonable to expect a man to explain to his wife why he is angry and frustrated with her than it is for a human to explain it to a horse by having a dialogue. Horses do tell each other they're out of order by booting them.

In these circumstances it can't be in any way justified since from the horse's POV, it was punished for being caught, the human's behavior served no purpose at all except to demonstrate to the other humans what a "badass" she was, and she ended up looking, at best, a tit, at worst a cow.


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## ycbm (7 November 2021)

I can't get my ahead around hunters on the forum seeking to excuse the behaviour in any way.  I am hoping to trail, drag or bloodhound Joe. I'm bloody furious that this angry woman lost her temper in front of a camera that she must have known was likely to be there,  in doing so making it less likely that there's going to be any kind of hunting left for me to do.

Yes,  I've done as bad myself, though quite a few years back now. Yes, worse happens daily in livery yards.  Yes,  trial by social media is out of control and I hope she does not suffer disproportionately for what is a relatively minor level of abuse even if it is,  as it is,  unacceptable.

But hunt supporters need to understand that because of illegal behaviour of many hunts every single person who is out following a hunt is in a social media spotlight. If people want their sport to continue they need to be angry about this woman,  not excusing her.


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## SO1 (7 November 2021)

What I find quite frustrating is because this happened at hunt this is going to very in much in the media and there will be a lot of focus on this woman which will not only have a huge impact on her but her family. 

Whereas that awful women Kate G who neglected her clients horse and caused a death will be able to continue her business and compete. She is exactly the sort of person who needs monitoring by sabs but because it is all behind closed doors and sabs are ignorant of this sort of abuse it does not happen. There is absolutely a place for monitoring animal welfare but sometimes I think due to ignorance the resources are misdirected. There are a lot of issues with dealers and breeders and other professionals that could really do with being monitored.


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## honetpot (7 November 2021)

southerncomfort said:



			I'm beginning to find the 'whataboutery' on this forum a bit hard to stomach to be honest.

Hitting is hitting.  Violence is violence. The horse doesn't know or care that dobbin down the road suffers much worse abuse, all he knows is that a human hurt him for no reason at all.

Should we let men away with giving the wife a bit of a slap as long as he doesn't break any bones?
		
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 This is all true, but I just wish people would stand up when horses are being abused on yards, with the justification of training. The two main ones that are common are lunging, where someone gets a horse in the school and their mate beats the**** out of it, any time it does something  'wrong'. Or the horse that will not go near a fence with someone stood at the side of it and stops, as it's been 'over' rapped, oh and let's not for the strapping in of head, tightened nosebands, and the over biting.


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## SO1 (7 November 2021)

I totally agree and the hunt itself and their governing body should be taking advice on how to deal with this instance and be issuing a media statement to condone the behaviour and ban her from hunt regardless of who she is. 

I feel sorry for the horse and also the innocent child in this situation who will have to go to school tomorrow. 



ycbm said:



			I can't get my ahead around hunters on the forum seeking to excuse the behaviour in any way.  I am hoping to trail, drag or bloodhound Joe. I'm bloody furious that this angry woman lost her temper in front of a camera that she must have known was likely to be there,  in doing so making it less likely that there's going to be any kind of hunting left for me to do.

Yes,  I've done as bad myself, though quite a few years back now. Yes, worse happens daily in livery yards.  Yes,  trial by social media is out of control and I hope she does not suffer disproportionately for what is a relatively minor level of abuse even if it is,  as it is,  unacceptable.

But hunt supporters need to understand that because of illegal behaviour of many hunts every single person who is out following a hunt is in a social media spotlight. If people want their sport to continue they need to be angry about this woman,  not excusing her.
		
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## Tiddlypom (7 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			I can't get my ahead around hunters on the forum seeking to excuse the behaviour in any way.
		
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It's because the end of all hunting with hounds is now a very live possibility post the Mark Hankinson verdict, and they are panicking like mad.

I am very disappointed in some posters who I had previously thought much better of.


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## mini_b (7 November 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I have walloped horses in the past, I am not a fluffy handler at all, but you do have to set them up to succeed.
To my mind the fact she was hunting is irrelevant, except of course it wouldn’t have got the exposure if she had been doing dressage, for instance.
		
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to be fair there was quite the furore when the German trainer walloped that horse during the modern pentathlon.. just think folk don’t like seeing horses get smacked about.

im also not a “fluffy handler” either but giving it a smack round head REPEATEDLY was totally pointless. It was a temper tantrum.


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## Nancykitt (7 November 2021)

I used to hunt with bloodhounds when I lived in England...unfortunately I had to give it up when I moved up here. (There are compensations, but I miss it!)

I did see a few things that upset me in the 10 years or so that I was hunting, including similar behaviour to that shown in the video. It's absolutely appalling and there is no excuse whatsoever. 
However, as others have said, this type of thing is sadly not uncommon and I've seen even worse behaviour at local shows. This does not excuse in any way the behaviour seen in the video. But I find it a bit unsettling that the social media campaign is focused entirely on associating this behaviour with hunting. Some people on Twitter had actually posted stuff to the effect of 'It's only hunters who are cruel to their horses', which is clearly not true. Several people were saying that most hunting people treat their horses like this and that banning all hunting is the only way to stop such horse abuse. 

The difficulty is that I want to defend the many, many people who go hunting and treat their horses like kings and queens. I suppose I can say that in response to some of the SM comments but it's unlikely that anyone would listen to me. And most of us wouldn't say 'I've seen similar behaviour at horse shows' because few people would take kindly to sabs/activists turning their spring and summer attention to local shows. 

I'm not expressing myself very well, I suppose I'm just trying to say that it's being made (by SM commentators) into an exclusively hunting issue and it's definitely not.


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## HackWithMe (7 November 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			Worked though the little monkey loaded .
Not the worse bit of horse handling I have seen .
		
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Are you actually backing that awful woman’s actions?


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## Tiddlypom (7 November 2021)

Includes reaction from the RSPCA and the Hunting Office.

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-11-07/upsetting-hunt-rider-condemned-for-slapping-and-kicking-horse


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## southerncomfort (7 November 2021)

Nancykitt said:



			I used to hunt with bloodhounds when I lived in England...unfortunately I had to give it up when I moved up here. (There are compensations, but I miss it!)

I did see a few things that upset me in the 10 years or so that I was hunting, including similar behaviour to that shown in the video. It's absolutely appalling and there is no excuse whatsoever.
However, as others have said, this type of thing is sadly not uncommon and I've seen even worse behaviour at local shows. This does not excuse in any way the behaviour seen in the video. But I find it a bit unsettling that the social media campaign is focused entirely on associating this behaviour with hunting. Some people on Twitter had actually posted stuff to the effect of 'It's only hunters who are cruel to their horses', which is clearly not true. Several people were saying that most hunting people treat their horses like this and that banning all hunting is the only way to stop such horse abuse.

The difficulty is that I want to defend the many, many people who go hunting and treat their horses like kings and queens. I suppose I can say that in response to some of the SM comments but it's unlikely that anyone would listen to me. And most of us wouldn't say 'I've seen similar behaviour at horse shows' because few people would take kindly to sabs/activists turning their spring and summer attention to local shows.

I'm not expressing myself very well, I suppose I'm just trying to say that it's being made (by SM commentators) into an exclusively hunting issue and it's definitely not.
		
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To be honest I'm more afraid of it being used against the whole horse community.

The general public won't differentiate between a rider that hunts and one that doesn't. All they'll see is a rider punching her horse in the face for seemingly no reason.

It reflects badly on ALL of us and that's why we must not EVER defend this sort of behaviour.


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## fetlock (7 November 2021)

I don't quite know what to say about this incident, other than that the footage is appalling to watch, the women involved is an abusive **** and an utter fool, and I feel extremely sorry for the child whose pony that presumably was, having to deal with the aftermath of that.

Obviously the fact that it happened at a hunt meet incenses many who are anti-hunting all the more, but footage like that would incense at any time. 

Not that this makes any difference whatsoever to this particular incident but, having spent the third night in a row now with my very stressed cat glued to my side because of fireworks, I'll mention it anyway. How many of these in uproar about it have indulged in fireworks this weekend, with absolutely no concern whatsoever for the trauma it causes to so many animals- domestic and wild - including foxes.


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## SOS (7 November 2021)

All I’m gonna say is that this is being shared widely by lots of PRO hunting people on my Facebook and they are not happy with her actions either. We are also quite local to the Cotts, some of the people sharing hunt with them… no idea who she is but guessing not very liked!


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## palo1 (7 November 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			Good grief,  just keep it all quiet then, sweep it under the carpet.   Keep your dirty little secrets!
		
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That isn't what I was suggesting at all and you are being unnecessarily cynical and defensive.


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## Sandstone1 (7 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			That isn't what I was suggesting at all and you are being unnecessarily cynical and defensive.
		
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Thats your opinion, which I dont agree with or care for.    That woman was abusing that pony and whatever you say or think its not acceptable.   You can twist it or try to spin it anyway you like but there is no excuse.


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## Upthecreek (7 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			CP should have simply reported this rather than whipping up a social media hate storm for the sake of his own agenda.  That is vile, irresponsible and in the context, potentially dangerous behaviour even whilst the behaviour of this woman is also vile.

If hunters are to be afraid then the next targets will be shooters and their dogs, racing, then of course, or possibly simultaneously farmers and finally pet owners, meat eaters etc.
		
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Nobody needs to be afraid if they aren’t beating or abusing their animals. If they are, whatever walk of life they come from or whatever activity they are participating in, they should be prepared to be vilified if they are caught doing it on camera.


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## holeymoley (7 November 2021)

What a witch.


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## palo1 (7 November 2021)

southerncomfort said:



			I'm beginning to find the 'whataboutery' on this forum a bit hard to stomach to be honest.

Hitting is hitting.  Violence is violence. The horse doesn't know or care that dobbin down the road suffers much worse abuse, all he knows is that a human hurt him for no reason at all.

Should we let men away with giving the wife a bit of a slap as long as he doesn't break any bones?
		
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I don't think that is what anyone is suggesting?  I think there is a response that this isn't, sadly, particularly unusual behaviour in the horse world even though we can see that this behaviour toward an animal in our care is wrong.  That is relevant because the clip is presented as demonstrating that hunting specifically promotes this kind of vile behaviour which is simply not true and that is what other people are saying I think.


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## palo1 (7 November 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			Nobody needs to be afraid if they aren’t beating or abusing their animals. If they are, whatever walk of life they come from or whatever activity they are participating in, they should be prepared to be vilified if they are caught doing it on camera.
		
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You've misunderstood me I think.  Hunting is in the spotlight because of the way that there has been so much controversy both historically and currently about it as an activity - regardless of illegal hunting reports and convictions which have been high profile and shocking for many people.   Increasingly people are questioning our relationship with and behaviour toward animals - particularly where field sports/country sports etc are concerned.  There is a lobby against all of those activities (hunting, shooting, fishing) because they are not seen as essential and are seen as 'cruel'.   There is also a lobby against animal farming and increasingly against meat eating and pet owning.  

The very existence of any of those things, is for some people, abhorrent and that lobby is effective in their communications and very noisy and attractive to the media .  That kind of discussion sells in spite of the huge contradictions in all manner of ways.


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## palo1 (7 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			I can't get my ahead around hunters on the forum seeking to excuse the behaviour in any way.  I am hoping to trail, drag or bloodhound Joe. I'm bloody furious that this angry woman lost her temper in front of a camera that she must have known was likely to be there,  in doing so making it less likely that there's going to be any kind of hunting left for me to do.

Yes,  I've done as bad myself, though quite a few years back now. Yes, worse happens daily in livery yards.  Yes,  trial by social media is out of control and I hope she does not suffer disproportionately for what is a relatively minor level of abuse even if it is,  as it is,  unacceptable.

But hunt supporters need to understand that because of illegal behaviour of many hunts every single person who is out following a hunt is in a social media spotlight. If people want their sport to continue they need to be angry about this woman,  not excusing her.
		
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For goodness sake @ycbm, no hunters have excused the behaviour!  You have literally just said that you have done similar: 'I've done as bad myself...' So if it was good enough a strategy for you (even if you have learnt better and alternative strategies now) why on earth would you think that everyone else would be 'better' than you? 

Has your behaviour ever shocked, offended or upset anyone?  Have you ever done anything to damage someone else's enjoyment of something?

Just saying...

ETA - just in case you are not clear I certainly have not condoned, excused or contextualised this woman's behaviour to 'sanitise' her hitting and kicking a horse.  I have said that it is appalling.  I expect when you had 'done as bad' there was a reason.  It still didn't justify it but you at least know what that reason was.  This woman will have had a reason, not a justification or excuse but a reason.


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## windand rain (7 November 2021)

No matter where it was filmed or by whom it is dreadful. Perhaps the RSPCA officers should investigate this then take themselves off to some shows and amateur showjumping and perhaps a trip to dressage too. There is no excuse for violence/cruelty from over or underfeeding and the behaviour found daily where kids are taught to boot horses on or hit them or grab at reins yanking hands etc are all wrong who protects those ponies. Who stops the current trend of obesity, battering horses over fences, hauling hands in dressage. Sadly all are real and better education is probably the only way forward.


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## palo1 (7 November 2021)

fetlock said:



			I don't quite know what to say about this incident, other than that the footage is appalling to watch, the women involved is an abusive **** and an utter fool, and I feel extremely sorry for the child whose pony that presumably was, having to deal with the aftermath of that.

Obviously the fact that it happened at a hunt meet incenses many who are anti-hunting all the more, but footage like that would incense at any time.

Not that this makes any difference whatsoever to this particular incident but, having spent the third night in a row now with my very stressed cat glued to my side because of fireworks, I'll mention it anyway. How many of these in uproar about it have indulged in fireworks this weekend, with absolutely no concern whatsoever for the trauma it causes to so many animals- domestic and wild - including foxes.
		
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Absolutely right.  I don't expect we will see many social media condemnations from CP or any other sleb for people having firework displays near livestock nor any issues raised about all manner of damaging but convenient activities, because it is too easy to alienate people if you do that!


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## Nancykitt (7 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			...the clip is presented as demonstrating that hunting specifically promotes this kind of vile behaviour which is simply not true and that is what other people are saying I think.
		
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Yes, this is what I meant. The comments on SM posts I've seen are very much about hunting - specifically - literally encouraging horse abuse.


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## palo1 (7 November 2021)

Nancykitt said:



			Yes, this is what I meant. The comments on SM posts I've seen are very much about hunting - specifically - literally encouraging horse abuse.
		
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Well hunting is a convenient whipping boy and recent events have been hunting's very own worst enemy sadly.


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## ycbm (7 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			For goodness sake @ycbm, no hunters have excused the behaviour!
		
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What thread are you reading?  They have,  and on this thread. 
.


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## palo1 (7 November 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Includes reaction from the RSPCA and the Hunting Office.

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-11-07/upsetting-hunt-rider-condemned-for-slapping-and-kicking-horse

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I am delighted that the HO and the Cottesmore hunt have made it clear that this behaviour cannot be excused.  I hope that message has been received loud and clear wherever it might be needed too.


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## fetlock (7 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			Absolutely right.  I don't expect we will see many social media condemnations from CP or any other sleb for people having firework displays near livestock nor any issues raised about all manner of damaging but convenient activities, because it is too easy to alienate people if you do that!
		
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I've just shared the post about the Exmoor pony killed becaus of fireworks this weekend. 
On Twitter, I've probably had at least six people so far that I follow who have retweeted a post about the hunt incident today. I'll be lucky if one person gives the fireworks related one even just a like. I may be pleasantly surprised and more take note, but very much doubt it. Stick in that it happened because of a hunt though and it would go viral.


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## Sandstone1 (7 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			I am delighted that the HO and the Cottesmore hunt have made it clear that this behaviour cannot be excused.  I hope that message has been received loud and clear wherever it might be needed too.
		
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Oh thats ok then


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## palo1 (7 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			What thread are you reading?  They have,  and on this thread.
.
		
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Can you identify those posts - I have just re-read the thread and cannot find anyone who has excused that behaviour?


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## Upthecreek (7 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			You've misunderstood me I think.  Hunting is in the spotlight because of the way that there has been so much controversy both historically and currently about it as an activity - regardless of illegal hunting reports and convictions which have been high profile and shocking for many people.   Increasingly people are questioning our relationship with and behaviour toward animals - particularly where field sports/country sports etc are concerned.  There is a lobby against all of those activities (hunting, shooting, fishing) because they are not seen as essential and are seen as 'cruel'.   There is also a lobby against animal farming and increasingly against meat eating and pet owning. 

The very existence of any of those things, is for some people, abhorrent and that lobby is effective in their communications and very noisy and attractive to the media .  That kind of discussion sells in spite of the huge contradictions in all manner of ways.
		
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I don’t think I misunderstood you. There can be a lobby against all manner of activities we do with animals. As long as the activity you are participating in is legal, you have nothing to fear if you are not filmed punching and kicking your horse/dog/farm animal. If that vile woman had not been caught on camera doing that to her horse there would be no story, no spotlight and no negative publicity.


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## palo1 (7 November 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			I don’t think I misunderstood you. There can be a lobby against all manner of activities we do with animals. As long as the activity you are participating in is legal, you have nothing to fear if you are not filmed punching and kicking your horse/dog/farm animal. If that vile woman had not been caught on camera doing that to her horse there would be no story, no spotlight and no negative publicity.
		
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Ok but certainly in the context of trail hunting there would be considerable interest in creating a story that discredits hunting.  Shooting is an entirely legal activity with no restrictions on it at all at the moment but that doesn't mean that there isn't increasing conflict between anti hunting and shooting groups and people carrying out those entirely legal activities.  

In any case there is no place anywhere for the behaviour of this woman - legal, illegal, dressage, hunting, showing, at a livery yard, natural horsmanship training or anywhere else.


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## Nancykitt (7 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			I am delighted that the HO and the Cottesmore hunt have made it clear that this behaviour cannot be excused.  I hope that message has been received loud and clear wherever it might be needed too.
		
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Just read some posts and it doesn't seem to be going down well. The HO apparently commented that she was not a member of any of the 'hunting associations' and this has been misinterpreted by many, who are now screaming that they are all lying because she has been photographed out with the Cottesmore in the past. Sadly, some people have just made up their minds and it's not easy to reason with them. 



Upthecreek said:



			I don’t think I misunderstood you. There can be a lobby against all manner of activities we do with animals. As long as the activity you are participating in is legal, you have nothing to fear if you are not filmed punching and kicking your horse/dog/farm animal. If that vile woman had not been caught on camera doing that to her horse there would be no story, no spotlight and no negative publicity.
		
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I'm not sure about this. It's clear from the reaction on SM that there is a massive amount of mistrust when it comes to hunting. I used to go out with a bloodhound pack hunting the clean boot but I can't convince anti-hunt people that bloodhounds don't rip foxes apart. I actually never saw any illegal activity in all the years I was hunting - but I do know that some packs behaved in an unacceptable way. 
There is a strong feeling that absolutely every 'legal' hunt is a smokescreen and all are breaking the law - and they are using this to try and get hunting of any kind (including drag hunts and bloodhound packs) banned totally.


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## millikins (7 November 2021)

It's dreadful behaviour from a bad horsewoman, we've all seen similar in many situations at yards or competitions. The fact it was filmed at a hunt meet does not mean that all hunting should now be banned.
I'd like to see sabs turn their cameras on to really nasty animal abuse, dog fighting, badger baiting etc, that would convince me that their aim is animal welfare and not class warfare.


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## ycbm (7 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			Can you identify those posts - I have just re-read the thread and cannot find anyone who has excused that behaviour?
		
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I started a list of the number of posts that have elements that appear to excuse or  partially excuse this behaviour,  especially when you look at who has liked them,  but I gave up because there were so many.

Goldenstar's posts stood out as defending the woman and appeared to suggest that the kick and hitting had produced a positive result,  and have you really no awareness of how your own post about how sabs may have made her angry reads?
.


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## ycbm (7 November 2021)

millikins said:



			The fact it was filmed at a hunt meet does not mean that all hunting should now be banned.
		
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No of course it doesn't but it frustrates the hell out of me,  since I want to trail hunt,  that many hunting people seem so blind to the fact  that in the social media age whether it should is irrelevant and whether it  will is everything. 
.


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## Nancykitt (7 November 2021)

millikins said:



			It's dreadful behaviour from a bad horsewoman, we've all seen similar in many situations at yards or competitions. The fact it was filmed at a hunt meet does not mean that all hunting should now be banned.
I'd like to see sabs turn their cameras on to really nasty animal abuse, dog fighting, badger baiting etc, that would convince me that their aim is animal welfare and not class warfare.
		
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I can't disagree with you, there is so much that activists could be focusing on...but these people are totally fixated on hunting and I can't see a way to change that. We all know that the fact it was filmed at a hunt met does not mean that all hunting should be banned. But the antis don't see it like that and sadly this incident has become very useful to them. People on the periphery are being told that hunting promotes horse abuse, all hunts are smokescreens, all riders who go hunting are nasty posh upper-class lying sadists, all hunting should be totally banned etc etc and they're not even questioning it. They're just jumping on a bandwagon.


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## mini_b (7 November 2021)

millikins said:



			I'd like to see sabs turn their cameras on to really nasty animal abuse, dog fighting, badger baiting etc, that would convince me that their aim is animal welfare and not class warfare.
		
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absolutely


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## Upthecreek (7 November 2021)

Nancykitt said:



			Just read some posts and it doesn't seem to be going down well. The HO apparently commented that she was not a member of any of the 'hunting associations' and this has been misinterpreted by many, who are now screaming that they are all lying because she has been photographed out with the Cottesmore in the past. Sadly, some people have just made up their minds and it's not easy to reason with them.



I'm not sure about this. It's clear from the reaction on SM that there is a massive amount of mistrust when it comes to hunting. I used to go out with a bloodhound pack hunting the clean boot but I can't convince anti-hunt people that bloodhounds don't rip foxes apart. I actually never saw any illegal activity in all the years I was hunting - but I do know that some packs behaved in an unacceptable way.
There is a strong feeling that absolutely every 'legal' hunt is a smokescreen and all are breaking the law - and they are using this to try and get hunting of any kind (including drag hunts and bloodhound packs) banned totally.
		
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Of course you are not going to be able to convince most anti-hunters that every legal hunt is not a smokescreen for illegal hunting if that is what those individuals have chosen to believe. But if hunters are caught on camera abusing horses or illegally killing foxes they are doing it in the full knowledge they could be being filmed and that it will end up all over social media. They must know that will be negative publicity for their ‘sport’, which they try so hard to defend? Unfortunately I don’t think the general public differentiate between hunts that do it within the law and those that don’t. They are all just hunts and I think they are on borrowed time.


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## palo1 (7 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			I started a list of the number of posts that have elements that appear to excuse or  partially excuse this behaviour,  especially when you look at who has liked them,  but I gave up because there were so many.

Goldenstar's posts stood out as defending the woman and appeared to suggest that the kick and hitting had produced a positive result,  and have you really no awareness of how your own post about how sabs may have made her angry reads?
.
		
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I was very clear in that post that there was no excuse for hitting a horse.  The fact is that to me it seems relevant to point out that sab behaviour can be extremely difficult to deal with. Every time I mention poor behaviour from Sabs there is an excuse spouted by anti-hunters.  It is the same!  IF that had anything to do with this situation it still doesn't justify it but some people may not be aware of what it is like to try to do something that is entirely legal and be actively terrorised whilst doing that.  I think I have every right to point out stuff that isn't necessarily convenient for other people to read, in the same way you do.  I want people to read another narrative about hunting which isn't led by sabs.  This incident is dire but it's not unusual in horse handling; you have admitted doing 'worse' yourself.

It was probably a mistake for me to mention the impact that Sabs could have had but I saw that situation with people filming and I know how hassled and upset I would be.  I wouldn't hit my horse actually but some people would lose their cool in that setting.  I am very glad that both the HO and the Cottesmore hunt have said this isn't acceptable - we all know that and hunters need to make sure that is perfectly, unequivocally clear.


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## millikins (7 November 2021)

The hunt in question should make a public statement that this supporter has been banned for whatever period of time they find appropriate. But I also think that the policy of appeasement is obviously failing, the sabs will not be happy until all trail hunting is banned, then it will be drag and bloodhounds and then onto racing and eventing. I would love to see Chris Packham served with a summons for slander/libel after his attempt to smear the hunt over the stolen car event, he is a hard line activist who uses a publicly funded platform to further his campaigning.


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## ester (7 November 2021)

Christ can you imagine them saying in public statements it was acceptable, they wouldn't be that stupid surely. It will come across to many as just empty words though really, on the basis that really they couldn't say anything other than that. I'm not sure I could be that glad that they'd said the minimum they could say.


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## Dizzy socks (7 November 2021)

The video is terrible, and her behaviour can't be justified in any way.

Palo, I slightly agree with YCBM that mentioning sab behaviour slightly undermines 'there is no excuse'. Essentially, even if you're just trying to provide possible context, it reads like a mitigating factor - because otherwise what value is there in the context, I suppose? I'm just thinking out loud, really.

I do however think, separate from all other debates re hunting etc, that the quick responses from the Cottesmore and HO are positive - I don't doubt that behaviour like this occurs in all equestrian spheres, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't find it shocking when we witness it, regardless of where. I agree a ban would be appropriate. If this is another problem for the future of hunting, I don't think the fault can be really be ascribed to Hunting's central governance -  the blame sits squarely on the shoulders of the woman involved.


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## ycbm (7 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			you have admitted doing 'worse' yourself
		
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No I haven't,  if you are going for a personal attack here please get it right.
.


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## ycbm (7 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			Shooting is an entirely legal activity with no restrictions on it at all at the moment but that doesn't mean that there isn't increasing conflict between anti hunting and shooting groups and people carrying out those entirely legal activities.
		
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I think there will be a lot of support in the general population for the sabbing of shooting, legal or not.  I don't doubt that it will happen at some point. 
.


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## Dizzy socks (7 November 2021)

@palo1 would you mind posting links to the responses by the HO and The Cottesmore please? I may be being daft, but can't seem to find them on fb or their websites?


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## palo1 (7 November 2021)

millikins said:



			The hunt in question should make a public statement that this supporter has been banned for whatever period of time they find appropriate. But I also think that the policy of appeasement is obviously failing, the sabs will not be happy until all trail hunting is banned, then it will be drag and bloodhounds and then onto racing and eventing. I would love to see Chris Packham served with a summons for slander/libel after his attempt to smear the hunt over the stolen car event, he is a hard line activist who uses a publicly funded platform to further his campaigning.
		
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Yes, I agree with you.  From what I can see the BBC are increasingly uncomfortable with the issues that employing CP brings them; the RSPB are also struggling with his stance on, for example trapping which they use but yet CP has outright condemned and in his unity with the Hunt Saboteurs Association, encourages the illegal destruction of traps.  That is rather paradoxical and difficult for anyone to justify.  In their turn the RSPB are in an awkward place as traps set to catch stoats etc have caught and killed several domestic cats.  If that was related to hunting there would be an almighty outcry but because of CP....well....

Following the Martin Bashir scandal the BBC are overhauling their due diligence around celebrity/senior presenters which is a good thing.  The beeb received considerable criticism for allowing CP to nominate LACS as charity recipient on a game show and have acknowledged that this is difficult.  In their turn ITV's Rupert Evelyn, anti-hunting journalist has been very much identified as uncomfortably close to some undesirable and criminal individuals and groups associated with them in the animal rights movement.  Rupert Evelyn is enjoying his moment of success but with increasing attention on their due diligence also, ITV will probably find that politically motivated journalists and presenters are too difficult and inconvenient to manage.

It is not a great age of journalism atm which is a shame as we rely on journalists and TV presenters to stick to their area of expertise and to tell the truth, not just their preferred bits of it.  Hey ho...First world problems in a sense.


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## ester (7 November 2021)

They are on the ITV link provided earlier albeit in bits

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-11-07/upsetting-hunt-rider-condemned-for-slapping-and-kicking-horse


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## ester (7 November 2021)

People rely on journalists? really?! when?


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## palo1 (7 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			No I haven't,  if you are going for a personal attack here please get it right.
.
		
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No personal attack at all - I was just repeating what you had written 'Yes, I've done as bad myself'.  Apologies for not repeating that correctly - definitely my bad.


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## palo1 (7 November 2021)

ester said:



			People rely on journalists? really?! when?
		
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Well, we don't now...I 'think' that is what journalist used to be about though. I didn't express that very well sadly.  But you are right.


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## SO1 (7 November 2021)

The fault lies of course with the person who has abused her horse. 

However how the governing organisations deal with this issue will also have an impact. I think that they need to do more than just condone the behaviour of this person. 

If this women was returning from a meet when this happened the hunting associations should be saying she is now banned from attending further hunt activities. All they have said is that she is not a member of any hunting organisations. 

I don't think equine sports governing bodies do enough in terms of banning people who are found to be abusing horses in the name of sport. 



Dizzy socks said:



			The video is terrible, and her behaviour can't be justified in any way.

Palo, I slightly agree with YCBM that mentioning sab behaviour slightly undermines 'there is no excuse'. Essentially, even if you're just trying to provide possible context, it reads like a mitigating factor - because otherwise what value is there in the context, I suppose? I'm just thinking out loud, really.

I do however think, separate from all other debates re hunting etc, that the quick responses from the Cottesmore and HO are positive - I don't doubt that behaviour like this occurs in all equestrian spheres, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't find it shocking when we witness it, regardless of where. I agree a ban would be appropriate. If this is another problem for the future of hunting, I don't think the fault can be really be ascribed to Hunting's central governance -  the blame sits squarely on the shoulders of the woman involved.
		
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## The Irish Draft 2022 (7 November 2021)

Palo1 you should be ashamed of yourself  for thinking it’s acceptable behavior and if you’re so worried about hunting being banned then  hunts should take some responsibility for their actions. I have seen awful behavior from the uk  hunts . Something you  wouldn’t see  in Ireland .


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## Amymay (7 November 2021)

ester said:



			They are on the ITV link provided earlier albeit in bits

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-11-07/upsetting-hunt-rider-condemned-for-slapping-and-kicking-horse

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That’s all I’ve seen too. Nothing on sm from either.


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## Dizzy socks (7 November 2021)

ester said:



			They are on the ITV link provided earlier albeit in bits

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-11-07/upsetting-hunt-rider-condemned-for-slapping-and-kicking-horse

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Thank you - I’d hoped they’d made an actual statement of their own volition, and would have made it accessible. These read more like a response to being asked questions, than an active statement.


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## SO1 (7 November 2021)

What I find disappointing is neither organisation has said they will ban this individual from hunt activities. 



Dizzy socks said:



			Thank you - I’d hoped they’d made an actual statement of their own volition, and would have made it accessible. These read more like a response to being asked questions, than an active statement.
		
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## justme1 (7 November 2021)

Poor pony. If she is willing to do that in a very public place you can only guess what goes on behind closed doors. 
I’m afraid I would support people like this being banned from horse ownership unless supervised on an ‘official’ yard as they will just continue to do it out of sight .


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## Dave's Mam (7 November 2021)

Poor pony.  Taking out the whole hunting aspect, this is not acceptable to me.  As said earlier upthread, the pony seemed like this wasn't a new thing.
Poor wee thing.


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## shortstuff99 (7 November 2021)

I don't understand where every one is seeing this all the time on livery yards and shows? 

I've seen it once on a livery yard and I intervened. I'm also a riding club official steward and we take any form of abuse very seriously and have actions and sanctions that we take if that happens.

As an aside sabs do also go to a lot of other animal rights events. A lot of the sabs around my way protest at MBR beagles and covance for animal testing, they also protest at slaughter houses etc.


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## Pearlsasinger (7 November 2021)

SO1 said:



			I totally agree and the hunt itself and their governing body should be taking advice on how to deal with this instance and be issuing a media statement to* condone* the behaviour and ban her from hunt regardless of who she is.

I feel sorry for the horse and also the innocent child in this situation who will have to go to school tomorrow.
		
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I can only assume that you mean *'condemn'* the behaviour.


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## Pearlsasinger (7 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			For goodness sake @ycbm, no hunters have excused the behaviour!  You have literally just said that you have done similar: 'I've done as bad myself...' So if it was good enough a strategy for you (even if you have learnt better and alternative strategies now) why on earth would you think that everyone else would be 'better' than you?

Has your behaviour ever shocked, offended or upset anyone?  Have you ever done anything to damage someone else's enjoyment of something?

Just saying...

ETA - just in case you are not clear I certainly have not condoned, excused or contextualised this woman's behaviour to 'sanitise' her hitting and kicking a horse.  I have said that it is appalling.  I expect when you had 'done as bad' there was a reason.  It still didn't justify it but you at least know what that reason was.  This woman will have had a reason, not a justification or excuse but a reason.
		
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I simply cannot imagine any circumstance in which I would contemplate kicking a horse in the chest, or indeed, anywhere else.  Nor have I ever hit a horse about the head. IMHO no-one who cannot control their temper should be around animals at any point in their life.

ETA, I have seen comparable behaviour on a livery yard, where a teenager kicked her pony in the stomach - I intervened immediately.   Later the YO asked me not to  dob so again. I explained that I was not going to wait until I could report that kind of behaviour to him, or the child's parents, when I could actually stop what was happening in the instant.  I have also reported unacceptable behaviour to Show Secretaries and to Auction Offices, in my time.   Such behaviour is never acceptable imo but that doesn't mean that I don't question the veracity of a report.  There have been previous instances or inaccurate reports about hunt supporter behaviour.


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## Caol Ila (7 November 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			I don't understand where every one is seeing this all the time on livery yards and shows? 

I've seen it once on a livery yard and I intervened. I'm also a riding club official steward and we take any form of abuse very seriously and have actions and sanctions that we take if that happens.

As an aside sabs do also go to a lot of other animal rights events. A lot of the sabs around my way protest at MBR beagles and covance for animal testing, they also protest at slaughter houses etc.
		
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Awful behaviour but in about 25 years of horse ownership, I have seen it twice in livery yards. Once was in the States, and the perp was an instructor who started beating up on her horse for not standing still. I was about 15, so didn’t do a whole lot other than be horrified. Second time was in the UK; a livery had trouble catching her horse and once she caught him, she brought him down to the barn and started whaling on him with the end of her rope. Myself and another livery screamed at her to stop, which she did. 

These were not normal for yards/boarding stables and I hope the video isn’t normal for hunting.


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## Pearlsasinger (7 November 2021)

The Irish draft said:



			Palo1 you should be ashamed of yourself  for thinking it’s acceptable behavior and if you’re so worried about hunting being banned then  hunts should take some responsibility for their actions. I have seen awful behavior from the uk  hunts . Something you  wouldn’t see  in Ireland .
		
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I am sure that Palo1 can speak for herself but just incase she doesn't,  she very definitely did not say that it's acceptable behaviour.


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## millikins (7 November 2021)

Whilst I'm not trying to condone hitting the horse in these circumstances, why were sabs filming this? I thought their presence at hunt meets was to gain evidence of unlawful hunting?


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## Jellymoon (8 November 2021)

This was horrible to see, I think because it was done so casually in front of other people and kids. This is that woman’s normal, and that I find upsetting. I have seen this kind of behaviour before on yards, sometimes from professional riders, who then teach other people, and so it goes on. I’ve never done anything as bad as this, but I was definitely rougher with my horses in the past, when I was taught by such people. I’m firm when I need to be, they are big dangerous animals and need boundaries, but I never find I need to kick them or slap them repeatedly round them face.
It just needs to stop. No, it’s not the worst thing that can happen to a pony, but it’s just not acceptable. And it’s tarring us all with the same brush.
Yes, I hunt, but no, I don’t don’t do this to my horses or my dogs. Violence does not run through me. And I don’t have any friends that do either, and I don’t use any horse professionals that behave like this.


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

The Irish draft said:



			Palo1 you should be ashamed of yourself  for thinking it’s acceptable behavior and if you’re so worried about hunting being banned then  hunts should take some responsibility for their actions. I have seen awful behavior from the uk  hunts . Something you  wouldn’t see  in Ireland .
		
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Where have I ever said it was acceptable behaviour? I absolutely haven't said that!!


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## Steerpike (8 November 2021)

And it has just been on the BBC news.


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## Sandstone1 (8 November 2021)

millikins said:



			Whilst I'm not trying to condone hitting the horse in these circumstances, why were sabs filming this? I thought their presence at hunt meets was to gain evidence of unlawful hunting?
		
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Of course someone would film it!   Its animal abuse!  My God, can you blame sabs for anything else!  They were there so of course they would film it if they saw it.   Only pro hunters could blame sabs for filming animal abuse.   It the idiot woman who should be slated for doing it not sabs for filming it!


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## scats (8 November 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			I don't understand where every one is seeing this all the time on livery yards and shows?

I've seen it once on a livery yard and I intervened. I'm also a riding club official steward and we take any form of abuse very seriously and have actions and sanctions that we take if that happens.

As an aside sabs do also go to a lot of other animal rights events. A lot of the sabs around my way protest at MBR beagles and covance for animal testing, they also protest at slaughter houses etc.
		
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I’ve seen a horse hit around the head twice on livery yards in over 30 years. Both times I intervened. Both were late teens, full of attitude when I confronted them.  One hasn’t spoken to me for 20 years as a result.  She was smacking it over the head with a whip. Vile creature.

The other one, I confronted her and then spoke to her mum, who thanked me for telling her.  Kid was 16/17 at the time, but was a major brat and had a temper like I’ve never seen before.


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## Red-1 (8 November 2021)

I was horrified at the woman's actions. However, I am more horrified that someone has taken a close up photo of her young daughter and posted it on FB. Whatever happened, it wasn't the girl's deal, and she should not be punished.

If she were my child, I would be beside myself.

I also think that the hunt would benefit from telling the woman that she was not welcome at any meets for the rest of the season. I doubt the sabs would make it worth her while going anyway.


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## Ceriann (8 November 2021)

It’s certainly getting a lot of coverage now - BBC Breakfast and 1 million views on YouTube.  If it at least encourages others to get a grip of their temper before doing something like this it will have served a purpose. Behaviour like this, which also seems incredibly casual and normal, is just not ok.


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## PapaverFollis (8 November 2021)

I think the actions of the woman to the pony are very wrong. 

I think social media witch hunts are sick.  Especially if they involve children. 

I've been essentially chucked off livery yards for intervention when seeing horses being handled in this kind of way.  It never made anything better for the horse involved but it f****d up MY horses' well-beings for a while. (For those that can't believe people have seen worse elsewhere. Yes I have. Yes I intervened. Yes it made things very difficult for me and almost certainly made nothing any better for the horse involved.)

If someone had genuine concern for the horses that belong to this woman then they could send the video to WHW or RSPCA privately.  Making it a public witch-hunt is motivated by something else other than concern for her horse.


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## Clodagh (8 November 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			Of course someone would film it!   Its animal abuse!  My God, can you blame sabs for anything else!  They were there so of course they would film it if they saw it.   Only pro hunters could blame sabs for filming animal abuse.   It the idiot woman who should be slated for doing it not sabs for filming it!
		
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It’s more why they filming in the first place and it is because it is an intimidation tactic. They were deliberately filming a child, which in any arena other than the hunting field would be illegal. In the hunting field it is standard practice.


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

Red-1 said:



			I was horrified at the woman's actions. However, I am more horrified that someone has taken a close up photo of her young daughter and posted it on FB. Whatever happened, it wasn't the girl's deal, and she should not be punished.

If she were my child, I would be beside myself.

I also think that the hunt would benefit from telling the woman that she was not welcome at any meets for the rest of the season. I doubt the sabs would make it worth her while going anyway.
		
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Absolutely agree with you.


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2021)

Nancykitt said:



			People on the periphery are being told that hunting promotes horse abuse, all hunts are smokescreens, all riders who go hunting are nasty posh upper-class lying sadists, all hunting should be totally banned etc etc and they're not even questioning it. They're just jumping on a bandwagon.
		
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I agree, but hunting keeps coming up with yet more material which backs up all those views, doesn't it?

The smokescreen evidence has been used to convict the director of the Master of Foxhounds Association, along with very damning comments from the judge as he gave the verdict. I'm not in the slightest bit surprised that many people think that all hunting is a front for fox hunting - why wouldn't they? They feel that they can't believe a word that the hunting fraternity say.

The Cottesmore statement was the absolute minimum they could say in response, it's not to be applauded. Remember also that the Cottesmore supplied two hunt masters as character witnesses for Mark Hankinson's defence, and the prosecution completely tied them up in knots over the case of the Cottesmore terrier man who was convicted of digging up a badger sett in 2015 on a hunting day, and whether he was still employed by the hunt (it turned out that he is). It made them look decidedly dodgy, at best.



ycbm said:



			I think there will be a lot of support in the general population for the sabbing of shooting, legal or not.  I don't doubt that it will happen at some point.
		
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There is plenty of material on the main hunt saboteurs FB page showing that sab groups have already moved onto shooting in some areas. Shooting, if it went, would not be missed by many members of the public who are not directly involved in it. ETA To be clear, I do not approve personally of the sabbing of a legal activity, even though I personally dislike shooting. 


millikins said:



			Whilst I'm not trying to condone hitting the horse in these circumstances, why were sabs filming this? I thought their presence at hunt meets was to gain evidence of unlawful hunting?
		
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They'll have been filming all the hunt's activities on the day in case it shows something which may be useful to them later. It's what they do.

In this case, they struck pure gold when looking for something to even further discredit hunting in the eyes of the public - the foul tempered woman played right into their hands.


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## Regandal (8 November 2021)

Leaving the incident aside, why are they allowed to film children?


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## Goldenstar (8 November 2021)

Asha said:



			A transgression? She kicked and hit the horse . Absolutely no excuse whatsoever.
Seriously disappointed in your response .
		
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And I did not say there was any excuse.
She should not have done it .
But this online hounding of people is not acceptable and it used to be a safe place on here.
A few weeks ago it was Lucinda Green who was getting a kicking on here and I thought a lot of the comments there where seriously out of order.
Comments like hunt her down which up the thread are sickening .


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

Purely in response to the comments about sabbing shooting, does no-one commenting here worry about that?  Shooting is entirely legal and it not only employs a considerable number of people and brings money into the economy but also has a very direct relationship to the maintenance of land for that activity.  Several shoots, including grouse moorland have received prestigious conservation awards so they are not quite the villains that some would have them painted.  Shooting probably has learnt lessons from huntings mistakes and there is a real conversation about the issues which bother people around shooting.  

Why on earth would anyone be happy to see vigilantes disrupting shooting?  

I understand the arguments about cruelty to birds and poor management etc but is there really an appetite for vigiliantism as a political tool in the UK?   It has worked to discredit hunting but that is more of minority interest that shooting, racing and farming will be.  Surely people don't want more of this kind of conflict???

I don't necessarily want to disrupt this thread but as so many are commenting it does feel relevant.


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## ester (8 November 2021)

Regandal said:



			Leaving the incident aside, why are they allowed to film children?
		
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public place?


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## shortstuff99 (8 November 2021)

It is not illegal to film children in public unless it is indecent. Unfortunately they haven't broken any laws.


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## ester (8 November 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			it used to be a safe place on here.
.
		
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It has never been a 'safe place' here.


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

Regandal said:



			Leaving the incident aside, why are they allowed to film children?
		
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They are not, but they do.  When I requested that a masked, be-camera'ed sab not film my 13 year old child (who was not on a horse or in hunting clothing but on foot, attending a neighbouring meet) I was ignored and then, when asked again, told that they were not filming him but filming vehicles.  Aggressive and intimidating doesn't even begin to cover that experience...I was very upset particularly as we had done nothing whatsoever to warrant being filmed and the sabbing/monitoring that day concluded that the hunt had followed trails.


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			It is not illegal to film children in public unless it is indecent. Unfortunately they haven't broken any laws.
		
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It is illegal to film children and publish those images without permission.


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## ester (8 November 2021)

citation please


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

ester said:



			citation please
		
Click to expand...

The first one I could find is from Surrey County Council:

 'The Data Protection Act 1998 affects our use of photography. This is because an image of a child is personal data for the purpose of the Act and it is a requirement that consent is obtained from the parent of a child or young person under the age of 18 years for any photographs or video recordings for the purposes beyond the activity of the organisation. It is also important to ascertain the views of the children or young people involved... Where children are Looked After organisations must check consent with the Social Worker on the corporate parent’s behalf. Consent gained for photographs or videos may not extend to website or webcam use so it is important to check the status of existing consent...'

In more detail: https://ico.org.uk/for-organisation...ch-to-processing-children-s-personal-data-be/

There is absolutely an issue of consent, of potential harm/damage and of management of images of children.


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## ycbm (8 November 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			And I did not say there was any excuse.
		
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This looked like a pretty supportive comment GS. I'm not sure how we were supposed to interpret it as anything else.



Goldenstar said:



			Worked though the little monkey loaded .
		
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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2021)

The antis (or at least the monitors as opposed to sabs) in these parts IMHO quite rightly blur out the faces of any minors who appear in any footage of hunts that they publish online.


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## shortstuff99 (8 November 2021)

Yet this says it is not https://www.anncrafttrust.org/is-it-illegal-to-take-a-picture-of-a-child-or-young-person-under-18/


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## Dizzy socks (8 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			Purely in response to the comments about sabbing shooting, does no-one commenting here worry about that?  Shooting is entirely legal and it not only employs a considerable number of people and brings money into the economy but also has a very direct relationship to the maintenance of land for that activity.  Several shoots, including grouse moorland have received prestigious conservation awards so they are not quite the villains that some would have them painted.  Shooting probably has learnt lessons from huntings mistakes and there is a real conversation about the issues which bother people around shooting.  

Why on earth would anyone be happy to see vigilantes disrupting shooting?  

I understand the arguments about cruelty to birds and poor management etc but is there really an appetite for vigiliantism as a political tool in the UK?   It has worked to discredit hunting but that is more of minority interest that shooting, racing and farming will be.  Surely people don't want more of this kind of conflict???

I don't necessarily want to disrupt this thread but as so many are commenting it does feel relevant.
		
Click to expand...

I don’t really support vigilantism in any guise, but do think opening more of a conversation about shooting would not be a bad thing.

I personally find a hell of a lot of it incredibly unpleasant, and I say this having grown up rurally, and spent summers working full time on a shooting estate. Treatment of gun dogs in particular is often completely appalling, and this is viewed as normal. And no, I’m not saying this is everyone, but tbh I have seen very few people who wouldn’t at the very least give a dog a quick kick. There is a notion within shooting that even where treatment of dogs is clearly disgraceful - i.e leads to death of a dog, that it should be swept under the rug, so as not to give anti-shoot any ammunition. On the positive side, leaving cover around fields etc benefits other wildlife. Conversely, I strongly dislike the way in which management of the land is seemingly almost entirely for the preservation of pheasants - and no, I don’t think this benefits wildlife in general, any benefit is incidental. Sorry, this has almost turned into a rant, and perhaps my experience of shooting is not the norm, but it is reasonably extensive. Whilst I don’t disagree with shooting animals, I don’t believe that shooting as a sport has it’s house in order in the slightest.


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## ihatework (8 November 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			Yet this says it is not https://www.anncrafttrust.org/is-it-illegal-to-take-a-picture-of-a-child-or-young-person-under-18/

Click to expand...

The nuisance is in the publishing of the photo and the intent behind it.

The abuse incident aside, if I was the mother of that child I would be doing my utmost to have my child’s image removed and would be using every legal route possible to do so


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## ycbm (8 November 2021)

Ceriann said:



			It’s certainly getting a lot of coverage now - BBC Breakfast and 1 million views on YouTube.  If it at least encourages others to get a grip of their temper before doing something like this it will have served a purpose. Behaviour like this, which also seems incredibly casual and normal, is just not ok.
		
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It's the age we live in,  but I don't think she deserves that.  Chris Packham has used his high profile name to set a bad thing in motion here.
.


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2021)

ester said:



			It has never been a 'safe place' here.
		
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Indeed, and all who post on this and on any other threads, on hunting in particular, be very aware that undoubtedly they will be being closely followed by antis. Don't post anything that you may later regret.


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## CanteringCarrot (8 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			Purely in response to the comments about sabbing shooting, does no-one commenting here worry about that?  Shooting is entirely legal and it not only employs a considerable number of people and brings money into the economy but also has a very direct relationship to the maintenance of land for that activity.  Several shoots, including grouse moorland have received prestigious conservation awards so they are not quite the villains that some would have them painted.  Shooting probably has learnt lessons from huntings mistakes and there is a real conversation about the issues which bother people around shooting. 

Why on earth would anyone be happy to see vigilantes disrupting shooting? 

I understand the arguments about cruelty to birds and poor management etc but is there really an appetite for vigiliantism as a political tool in the UK?   It has worked to discredit hunting but that is more of minority interest that shooting, racing and farming will be.  Surely people don't want more of this kind of conflict???

I don't necessarily want to disrupt this thread but as so many are commenting it does feel relevant.
		
Click to expand...

Hunting discredited itself, but I suppose no one would know if no one were looking. 

I think also, some people are a bit ignorant when it comes to conservation. They just hear "guns" "shooting" "killing animals" and don't care about the how or why, just that it's being done, and in their mind, it's not right.

There is a certain amount of hunting that is a necessary evil to preserve species and curb over population which leads to suffering. I think this is fine, but sometimes humans interfere too much and get a bit of a power trip from it all, but that's another subject. 

If shooting or hunting is of benefit to an ecosystem/species/conservation effort then I have no problem with it as long as it's done properly. As in people are trained to shoot, what is shot is recorded/monitored, and people are licensed.  Shooting, when done right, is fairly humane, IMO. Usually can be a quick death. 

I don't know that fox hunting on horseback is the most humane option. I also don't know if it is truly in the interests of conservation. Most are caught up in this tradition and the feeling (or vibes? Idk) they get from seeing hounds work, galloping the countryside, and whatever. Obviously, in some situations, the fox population needs to be controlled, but this could possibly be done in another way.

I personally don't care if it's fox hunting or shooting, if someone's acting poorly, they get put on blast 🤷‍♀️ if they're not, then no problem. Involving their kid(s) is totally wrong though. 

Usually vigilantes step in when they feel that there are no controls or enough regulation. I mean, sometimes they can just be irrational and fighting for some cause that they've deemed the ultimate cause in the minds. However, when you see vigilantes taking action, it's important to look at why. Is there a broken system? 

I'm not necessarily happy to see vigilantes interrupt anything, but I do think it's worth examining why they're doing it.

I don't know why, but it's incredibly hard for some individuals to not be shady or not be terrible. It sucks when these individuals ruin it for an entire group. However, should we just say, "well, it's not all of them so they can continue" or "well, some is more than none and the only way to stop them is to stop the activity all together" ideally, the bad eggs would be thrown out, and the good ones can stay, but that's way easier said than done.


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## chocolategirl (8 November 2021)

Daren’t watch 🥺


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## Winters100 (8 November 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			I don't understand where every one is seeing this all the time on livery yards and shows?

.
		
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Same. I have never see this sort of thing on any livery yard I have been on. If it happened at the yard my horses are on now the YO would 100% ask the perpetrator to leave.

Regarding her children being filmed (I assume that she is the Mother) I also find it unacceptable.  There is however a reality that she_ knew_ that the sabs would probably be filming, she knew that if she kicked and punched a horse it would go viral, and she did so anyway with her children present.  Keeping our children safe is our own responsibility, if we do not care about it then we cannot expect anyone else to.  While I cannot support them sharing images showing the identity of the children there is 1 person who could have avoided all of this, and she choose not to. If I take my dog to the park now and beat him with my children present am I entitled to then complain that someone videos it with them present? I think not, in my opinion this would be 100% my own fault and I would be guilty of putting my children at risk.


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## Goldenstar (8 November 2021)

How can you be sure she knew she was being filmed ?


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## CanteringCarrot (8 November 2021)

Consider yourself fortunate if you haven't seen this kind of behavior at livery yards. I've seen this kind and worse here in Germany.


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## shortstuff99 (8 November 2021)

ihatework said:



			The nuisance is in the publishing of the photo and the intent behind it.

The abuse incident aside, if I was the mother of that child I would be doing my utmost to have my child’s image removed and would be using every legal route possible to do so
		
Click to expand...

Oh for sure I would be very annoyed and want it removed, but if people think just saying it is illegal is going to stop themselves being filmed and published while hunting it is not going to work.


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

I agree that it is a parental responsibility to protect children and that 'harm' may come from all manner of things and yes, not behaving appallingly may not lead to being filmed but in reality that isn't always the case with hunting activities. 

In any case, her behaviour was dire but the filming sabs should have taken every effort to not publish images of that child.  That was wrong regardless of what the woman was doing.


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## ester (8 November 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			How can you be sure she knew she was being filmed ?
		
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Surely if there are sabs at a hunt you are going to presume they are filming? this isn't new?


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## Lurfy (8 November 2021)

That woman really pi$$es me off. I can't stand that kind of behaviour.


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## Winters100 (8 November 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			How can you be sure she knew she was being filmed ?
		
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Because this is what sabs do, so she must have known that it was highly likely.  Even without sabs if I took my dog / horses / children to the street now and started hitting them around the face I would assume than any passer by would film it as evidence.


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## ihatework (8 November 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			Oh for sure I would be very annoyed and want it removed, but if people think just saying it is illegal is going to stop themselves being filmed and published while hunting it is not going to work.
		
Click to expand...

I take your point, but my point is that there are other laws to consider. Privacy laws (was this in public or on private land) and also harassment laws. Combined, those could make the  taking and/or publishing of this image illegal.


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## Pearlsasinger (8 November 2021)

Regandal said:



			Leaving the incident aside, why are they allowed to film children?
		
Click to expand...


It's not actually illegal to film children, or anyone else, in a public place.  It is certainly poor practice to publish such films, without prior permission of the parent.


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## Pearlsasinger (8 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			It's the age we live in,  but I don't think she deserves that.  Chris Packham has used his high profile name to set a bad thing in motion here.
.
		
Click to expand...


And his relationship with  BBC, which I feel should be reviewed, after this incitement to a witch hunt.


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## Goldenstar (8 November 2021)

I don’t think CP should lose his position with the BBC but I do think the BBC need to consider that he is using the profile the BBC has in a way that potentially brings into into disrepute .


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## ycbm (8 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			Purely in response to the comments about sabbing shooting, does no-one commenting here worry about that? Shooting is entirely legal and it not only employs a considerable number of people and brings money into the economy but also has a very direct relationship to the maintenance of land for that activity. Several shoots, including grouse moorland have received prestigious conservation awards so they are not quite the villains that some would have them painted. Shooting probably has learnt lessons from huntings mistakes and there is a real conversation about the issues which bother people around shooting.

Why on earth would anyone be happy to see vigilantes disrupting shooting?

I understand the arguments about cruelty to birds and poor management etc but is there really an appetite for vigiliantism as a political tool in the UK? It has worked to discredit hunting but that is more of minority interest that shooting, racing and farming will be. Surely people don't want more of this kind of thing?
		
Click to expand...

I think you are mixing up legal sabbing with vigilantes. Vigilantes do unofficial law enforcement.  Sabs should not be doing that, which is one answer to why they film everything when they sab hunts,  to act as evidence in court, and PR to support their aims.

Birds are bred just to be shot. That breeding destroys the visual impact (and ecology, I'm told)  of moors,  gamekeepers remove other birds like magpie and buzzard, and the shooting activity itself would be illegal if used to systematically kill almost any other animal. Many are not shot dead and a live injured bird is brought in the mouth of a dog to a person to then  have its neck wrung.  And that's before you consider that the sole purpose of this activity for the participant (who has often paid many hundreds of pounds for the day,  if not thousands) is a day's fun.

On the basis that they are attempting only to prevent the shooting of birds,  I would be happy to see shooting sabbed in the same way I'm happy to see people able to demonstrate against other things they don't think are right.  The history of this country is littered with things which used to be legal but either died out or became illegal because they were blocked by the evolving public opinion of the day.
.


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## Ceriann (8 November 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			And his relationship with  BBC, which I feel should be reviewed, after this incitement to a witch hunt.
		
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I’m not sure I agree.  Whilst I don’t participate in social media witch hunts and certainly don’t agree with her child being identified on social media, this woman has kicked and smacked a horse in a public place.  The law protecting animals from this kind of treatment and a lot worse is fairly useless - perhaps this will remind her and others who do the same or worse that this is just not considered acceptable to anyone with any decency.  I’m not sure anyone was so offended about the media coverage of those anti-lockdown protestors punching the police horse (who was also charged).


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## ester (8 November 2021)

The BBC have been lobbied re. CP quite a lot in recent years but have opted to have him stay, I don't see this being any different.


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## Clodagh (8 November 2021)

I think it’s only pro field sports people who dislike him. Who are the minority.

As for shooting, there is good and bad shoots like good and bad everything. On the whole more wildlife is definitely helped than hindered by shooting.


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## Kaylum (8 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			Yes but it would be equally easy for anyone to find something similar on any livery yard, at any competition or any private yard - this is just the most basic form of anti-hunting propaganda.  It's not, sadly, unusual to see horses being abused - there is no excuse for it but this behaviour is a very long way from being directly related to any hunting activity.  CP comes across as being spiteful in this particular incident tbh.  I know he hates hunting but this is a low, and not very effective blow.
		
Click to expand...

#notonmyyard no way would this happen on just any livery yard.  Let's just make that very clear. Loosing your temper with a horse you don't hit it. It's unacceptable behaviour and you don't do it. If you hit a dog and people see,  something is done about it same with a horse.

Had this with a high up bhs instructor who was meant to be schooling a friends horse when she was away. She beat the horse and saw me watching and stopped (before we had phones that had video). I told my friend who was shocked and upset she had words with said person who denied it ofcourse but didn't use her again.


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## Goldenstar (8 November 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I think it’s only pro field sports people who dislike him. Who are the minority.

As for shooting, there is good and bad shoots like good and bad everything. On the whole more wildlife is definitely helped than hindered by shooting.
		
Click to expand...

I have to say I think the good / bad done by shooting is nuanced it’s extremely complicated .
Helping wildlife does not spring to the front of my mind .


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## Clodagh (8 November 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			I have to say I think the good / bad done by shooting is nuanced it’s extremely complicated .
Helping wildlife does not spring to the front of my mind .
		
Click to expand...

Well we had a shoot for many years until this one and wildlife, bar foxes, mink and grey squirrels certainly did very well out of it.
Shooting like hunting is not really worth debating as people have strong opinions which are unlikely to change.


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## canteron (8 November 2021)

It’s made the Telegraph …. I genuine hope that the lady involved now has the humility to learn some better horsemanship.


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## Birker2020 (8 November 2021)

ester said:



			citation please
		
Click to expand...

https://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/report/taking-photographs-in-public-places/#:~:text=There is no law preventing,photos of other people's children.&text=Taking a photo of a,a breach of privacy laws.


In a nursery setting for example it would be illegal without the express permission of the parents or legal guardian.

It's not illegal in a public setting.  That said safeguarding issues may arise if those images are going to be used in public by an organisation for example.  Reasons for this may be children may not want contact with some members of their family.  Similiary if the child or family have experienced abuse they may worry the perpetrator could contact them or they would be traced far easier by the showing of their image.

Some families may have cultural reasons which would mean they do not wish their child to be photographed.


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## Birker2020 (8 November 2021)

Sadly I used to be on a yard where the yard owner would think nothing of punching your horse if it misbehaved and I saw her on more than one occasion kick her young horse in the belly with her boot when it had got loose and she'd then caught it.


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## ester (8 November 2021)

It wasn't a general request 🤣🤣


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## honetpot (8 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			Sabs
		
Click to expand...

Is not this the shortening of, https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/saboteur, which looking at its descriptions has little positive about it. Is that really what they mean to do, sabotage, and is even legal. Everyone gets wound up about people gluing themselves to the road, but compared to some of the tactics of some anti hunters, that's pretty tame.
I have no objection to anyone protesting or gathering evidence of wrong doing by legal means, but if you have ever been to a meet where children are present, a legal public event and the abuse that is hurled, the line between the well meaning and the downright aggressive is not that visible. Like everyone who does wrong, this is their public face.
   There are many people that think its OK to beat the c*** out of horses, and it's usually done in temper, the 'pros' do it with calculation. A quote from a friend who is a  BS judge, 'the pro's know when to stop', and it's done behind closed doors.


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			I think you are mixing up legal sabbing with vigilantes. Vigilantes do unofficial law enforcement.  Sabs should not be doing that, which is one answer to why they film everything when they sab hunts,  to act as evidence in court, and PR to support their aims.

Birds are bred just to be shot. That breeding destroys the visual impact (and ecology, I'm told)  of moors,  gamekeepers remove other birds like magpie and buzzard, and the shooting activity itself would be illegal if used to systematically kill almost any other animal. Many are not shot dead and a live injured bird is brought in the mouth of a dog to a person to then  have its neck wrung.  And that's before you consider that the sole purpose of this activity for the participant (who has often paid many hundreds of pounds for the day,  if not thousands) is a day's fun.

On the basis that they are attempting only to prevent the shooting of birds,  I would be happy to see shooting sabbed in the same way I'm happy to see people able to demonstrate against other things they don't think are right.  The history of this country is littered with things which used to be legal but either died out or became illegal because they were blocked by the evolving public opinion of the day.
.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think there is very much 'legal sabbing' going on at all.  That would require peaceful, non-abusive (verbally and physically) protest or presence, sticking to PROWs and not disrupting an activity which is legal.   I have seen exactly that kind of monitoring (and have spoken to monitors to explain routes/directions/where hounds were) but the vast majority of sabbing steps off the 'legal' side of protest/activism.  

Shooting is, as hunting was, more nuanced than many people realise.  

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/w...ds-for-game-and-conservation-announced-110672

From the Moorland's Association re: Plantlife report

It's always interesting to see how others are managing the habitats that include areas of peat in other areas of the UK and the arrival today of Plant life, the quarterly magazine from PlantLife, a conservation charity, includes an article on four of their conservation projects in the Back From the Brink partnership project which, after 4 years, finishes at the end of this year.
One project, in particular, is of interest as it reports how the Lesser Butterfly Orchid has responded to 'controlled burning of dense, tussocky purple moor-grass which gave plants the space and light to grow', in the Dorset Heathland Heart trial into habitat management.
It further states that  'In fact, the number of flowering plants more than doubled from 11 to 25 in two years'
Perhaps, though, the most surprising part of the article is not the fact that a conservation charity is using controlled cool burning on Dorset heathlands ( which include peatland!), but the fact that of the eight funding bodies supporting this partnership project one is the RSPB who are so vocal about how we are damaging peatlands by using controlled cool burning on our moorlands, despite the science and evidence proving otherwise!
#RSPB #controlledcoolburning #plantlife #orchids #nidderdale #NidderdaleMoorlandGroup #gamekeepers #managedmoorlands #COP26Glasgow

The other thing to bear in mind is that shooting can provide a 'free' service to the government in several ways in relation to conservation goals (regardless of any employment benefits)  Without shooting there would be additional costs to maintaining and improving those landscapes which are globally significant.

As with hunting though it is extraordinarily difficult to have a discussion about it as views are so polarised.


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## Backtoblack (8 November 2021)

I hope that woman is prosecuted.


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## Koweyka (8 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			I don't think there is very much 'legal sabbing' going on at all.  That would require peaceful, non-abusive (verbally and physically) protest or presence, sticking to PROWs and not disrupting an activity which is legal.   I have seen exactly that kind of monitoring (and have spoken to monitors to explain routes/directions/where hounds were) but the vast majority of sabbing steps off the 'legal' side of protest/activism. 

Shooting is, as hunting was, more nuanced than many people realise. 

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/w...ds-for-game-and-conservation-announced-110672

From the Moorland's Association re: Plantlife report

It's always interesting to see how others are managing the habitats that include areas of peat in other areas of the UK and the arrival today of Plant life, the quarterly magazine from PlantLife, a conservation charity, includes an article on four of their conservation projects in the Back From the Brink partnership project which, after 4 years, finishes at the end of this year.
One project, in particular, is of interest as it reports how the Lesser Butterfly Orchid has responded to 'controlled burning of dense, tussocky purple moor-grass which gave plants the space and light to grow', in the Dorset Heathland Heart trial into habitat management.
It further states that  'In fact, the number of flowering plants more than doubled from 11 to 25 in two years'
Perhaps, though, the most surprising part of the article is not the fact that a conservation charity is using controlled cool burning on Dorset heathlands ( which include peatland!), but the fact that of the eight funding bodies supporting this partnership project one is the RSPB who are so vocal about how we are damaging peatlands by using controlled cool burning on our moorlands, despite the science and evidence proving otherwise!
#RSPB #controlledcoolburning #plantlife #orchids #nidderdale #NidderdaleMoorlandGroup #gamekeepers #managedmoorlands #COP26Glasgow

The other thing to bear in mind is that shooting can provide a 'free' service to the government in several ways in relation to conservation goals (regardless of any employment benefits)  Without shooting there would be additional costs to maintaining and improving those landscapes which are globally significant.

As with hunting though it is extraordinarily difficult to have a discussion about it as views are so polarised.
		
Click to expand...

Those awards are akin to Turkeys voting for Christmas to happen twice a year, who can kill more birds and get a pat on the back it’s just vile.

Tell me how you feel about gamekeepers killing birds of prey, or will you claim that doesn’t happen ?


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## Dizzy socks (8 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			I don't think there is very much 'legal sabbing' going on at all.  That would require peaceful, non-abusive (verbally and physically) protest or presence, sticking to PROWs and not disrupting an activity which is legal.   I have seen exactly that kind of monitoring (and have spoken to monitors to explain routes/directions/where hounds were) but the vast majority of sabbing steps off the 'legal' side of protest/activism. 

Shooting is, as hunting was, more nuanced than many people realise. 

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/w...ds-for-game-and-conservation-announced-110672

From the Moorland's Association re: Plantlife report

It's always interesting to see how others are managing the habitats that include areas of peat in other areas of the UK and the arrival today of Plant life, the quarterly magazine from PlantLife, a conservation charity, includes an article on four of their conservation projects in the Back From the Brink partnership project which, after 4 years, finishes at the end of this year.
One project, in particular, is of interest as it reports how the Lesser Butterfly Orchid has responded to 'controlled burning of dense, tussocky purple moor-grass which gave plants the space and light to grow', in the Dorset Heathland Heart trial into habitat management.
It further states that  'In fact, the number of flowering plants more than doubled from 11 to 25 in two years'
Perhaps, though, the most surprising part of the article is not the fact that a conservation charity is using controlled cool burning on Dorset heathlands ( which include peatland!), but the fact that of the eight funding bodies supporting this partnership project one is the RSPB who are so vocal about how we are damaging peatlands by using controlled cool burning on our moorlands, despite the science and evidence proving otherwise!
#RSPB #controlledcoolburning #plantlife #orchids #nidderdale #NidderdaleMoorlandGroup #gamekeepers #managedmoorlands #COP26Glasgow

The other thing to bear in mind is that shooting can provide a 'free' service to the government in several ways in relation to conservation goals (regardless of any employment benefits)  Without shooting there would be additional costs to maintaining and improving those landscapes which are globally significant.

As with hunting though it is extraordinarily difficult to have a discussion about it as views are so polarised.
		
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The wildlife aspect *may* be debatable. I can understand possible merits in certain circumstances, but I will say that the benefits are incidental to shooting, and could equally well be created without it. To be honest, in my experience, land management is best described as game above all, and anything which interferes must be exterminated. I don't think controlled burning is always bad, but as in your example, it is incidental to shooting, and can- and does - happen regardless. 

The animal cruelty is an entirely different question, especially when it comes to gun dogs. It is disgracefully underregulated, and there is no appetite from within to reform - any attempt at change seems to be seen as interference, even when cruelty is so blatant. I'm not sure that looking to shooting helps hunting, really - people are just less aware of what goes on, there's less scrutiny. It's a shame. And yes, having witnessed Larsson traps, I don't think anyone should be using them, not hunters, shooters, or the RSPB - I understand the need to trap, but imo they're unacceptable. I'm not advocating for no shooting, I'm just saying that in its current form, cruelty is widespread.

I say this only as a point of interest really, but I witnessed a group of hunt sabs when at the COP26 march in Glasgow on Saturday.


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## NinjaPony (8 November 2021)

I really don’t think this is about the sabs. Plenty of people would film horrible abuse like that, and there is absolutely no excuse to treat a horse like that, whatever sport you are in. Doing that in public view, particularly when hunting has already had so much bad press, is astonishing. I don’t agree with involving anyone else in the furore, her child should absolutely be kept out of it, but i really don’t think we should be prepared to turn a blind eye, and some of the comments what-abouting really miss the point IMO. Owning a horse is a privilege and some people seem to forget this. Disgusting behaviour.


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

NinjaPony said:



			I really don’t think this is about the sabs. Plenty of people would film horrible abuse like that, and there is absolutely no excuse to treat a horse like that, whatever sport you are in. Doing that in public view, particularly when hunting has already had so much bad press, is astonishing. I don’t agree with involving anyone else in the furore, her child should absolutely be kept out of it, but i really don’t think we should be prepared to turn a blind eye, and some of the comments what-abouting really miss the point IMO. Owning a horse is a privilege and some people seem to forget this. Disgusting behaviour.
		
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I agree with you.  For me the sabs are a distraction but a significant one.  The fact remains that this is vile behaviour and anyone out hunting needs to make sure that their behaviour and attitudes really are beyond reproach.


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

Koweyka said:



			Those awards are akin to Turkeys voting for Christmas to happen twice a year, who can kill more birds and get a pat on the back it’s just vile.

Tell me how you feel about gamekeepers killing birds of prey, or will you claim that doesn’t happen ?
		
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I understand your perspective on shooting, I really do.  There are other perspectives too though.  I wonder what aspect of traditional rural managment you respect - is there anything that you would like to see remain in place?

I totally get your concerns about birds of prey too - I am passionately interested in birdlife and understand your fears for raptors on sporting estates.  I know that gamekeepers have been prosecuted and that the position with Hen Harriers is particularly fraught.

ETA - my experience of a shooting estate (grouse) is that by observation alone there is considerable life and diversity; grouse are worth protecting as are all the raptors.  I have seen healthy populations of golden plover, lapwings and curlew on a managed shooting estate where they are hard to find in other places.  Similarly with fungi, plants and other wildlife.  Every estate is different I guess though.


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## ycbm (8 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			I don't think there is very much 'legal sabbing' going on at all.  That would require peaceful, non-abusive (verbally and physically) protest or presence, sticking to PROWs and not disrupting an activity which is legal.   I have seen exactly that kind of monitoring (and have spoken to monitors to explain routes/directions/where hounds were) but the vast majority of sabbing steps off the 'legal' side of protest/activism. 

Shooting is, as hunting was, more nuanced than many people realise. 

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/news/w...ds-for-game-and-conservation-announced-110672

From the Moorland's Association re: Plantlife report

It's always interesting to see how others are managing the habitats that include areas of peat in other areas of the UK and the arrival today of Plant life, the quarterly magazine from PlantLife, a conservation charity, includes an article on four of their conservation projects in the Back From the Brink partnership project which, after 4 years, finishes at the end of this year.
One project, in particular, is of interest as it reports how the Lesser Butterfly Orchid has responded to 'controlled burning of dense, tussocky purple moor-grass which gave plants the space and light to grow', in the Dorset Heathland Heart trial into habitat management.
It further states that  'In fact, the number of flowering plants more than doubled from 11 to 25 in two years'
Perhaps, though, the most surprising part of the article is not the fact that a conservation charity is using controlled cool burning on Dorset heathlands ( which include peatland!), but the fact that of the eight funding bodies supporting this partnership project one is the RSPB who are so vocal about how we are damaging peatlands by using controlled cool burning on our moorlands, despite the science and evidence proving otherwise!
#RSPB #controlledcoolburning #plantlife #orchids #nidderdale #NidderdaleMoorlandGroup #gamekeepers #managedmoorlands #COP26Glasgow

The other thing to bear in mind is that shooting can provide a 'free' service to the government in several ways in relation to conservation goals (regardless of any employment benefits)  Without shooting there would be additional costs to maintaining and improving those landscapes which are globally significant.

As with hunting though it is extraordinarily difficult to have a discussion about it as views are so polarised.
		
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I live on the very edge of a very large shooting moor. I see the effects of it when I fetch my shopping. 

Conservation can, and should,  be done without killing animals in a bad way for the fun of it. 

I refused permission for the gamekeeper to kill magpie on my land.  I still haven't seen one since a few weeks after that permission was sought.  At the same time the buzzard disappeared.  Plenty of pheasant though.  
.
.


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## cauda equina (8 November 2021)

deleted


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## Sandstone1 (8 November 2021)

I can not understand the mentality of people more concerned that the abuse was filmed than the actual abuse.   The woman must have known she was being filmed and yet still did it.   What else does she do to the horses when no one around?  The mind boggles that people seem to think treating horses like this is ok.   Sometimes I really hate people.


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## Goldenstar (8 November 2021)

Clodagh said:



			Well we had a shoot for many years until this one and wildlife, bar foxes, mink and grey squirrels certainly did very well out of it.
Shooting like hunting is not really worth debating as people have strong opinions which are unlikely to change.
		
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There are shoots and shoots and some shoots are a scorched earth situation for small predators.
In my youth the agricultural situation was far more friendly for wildlife and these small predators where plentiful so a degree of management of say stoats was manageable now I rarely see a stoat as an example .


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## Amymay (8 November 2021)

I suspect the fall out from this is going to be pretty huge. The lady’s been named all over sm, her place of work identified and National press picking up on the story.

But still no official statement from the Cottesmore or Hunting Office 🤷🏻‍♀️


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			I live on the very edge of a very large shooting moor. I see the effects of it when I fetch my shopping.

Conservation can, and should,  be done without killing animals in a bad way for the fun of it.

I refused permission for the gamekeeper to kill magpie on my land.  I still haven't seen one since a few weeks after that permission was sought.  At the same time the buzzard disappeared.  Plenty of pheasant though. 
.
.
		
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I know we really differ in perspectives on this sort of thing @ycbm but I would ask you to consider the safety of your own wildlife; you have incredibly threatened curlew on your ground I understand.  I am sure that you have researched the threats to those ground nesting birds which you are very lucky to have but if you haven't it may be worth you devising your own plan for protecting them.  I completely understand not wanting to have magpies or buzzards shot by someone else, or at all but it is vital that if ground nesting birds are to survive (and curlew are on the absolute brink of survival) that predation on them is reduced somehow.  There are a number of threats which you may be able to mitigate in ways that you are happy with. That has nothing to do with pheasants by the way, but predators!


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## Koweyka (8 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			I understand your perspective on shooting, I really do.  There are other perspectives too though.  I wonder what aspect of traditional rural managment you respect - is there anything that you would like to see remain in place?

I totally get your concerns about birds of prey too - I am passionately interested in birdlife and understand your fears for raptors on sporting estates.  I know that gamekeepers have been prosecuted and that the position with Hen Harriers is particularly fraught.

ETA - my experience of a shooting estate (grouse) is that by observation alone there is considerable life and diversity; grouse are worth protecting as are all the raptors.  I have seen healthy populations of golden plover, lapwings and curlew on a managed shooting estate where they are hard to find in other places.  Similarly with fungi, plants and other wildlife.  Every estate is different I guess though.
		
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Isn't there a quote that says “Tradition is peer pressure from dead people”
As the most wildlife depleted country in the world the management occurring at the moment appears to be doing a p poor job of it.

Shooting estates are vile, my group got a shooting estate cautioned for killing a bird of prey and destroying the nest, it was only because we couldn’t prove who actually shot the bird (which gamekeeper) the police couldn’t prosecute more fully.

The stink pits on there were horrendous, foxes bodies piled up including tiny cubs, all manor of birds on there, they were too stupid not to burn the BOP body as we were able to send it for PM it was peppered with shot laying next to her nest.

Hopefully the shooting industry will go in the near future. Killing for fun is not acceptable, it’s a colossal waste of life.


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

Amymay said:



			I suspect the fall out from this is going to be pretty huge. The lady’s been named all over sm, her place of work identified and National press picking up on the story.

But still no official statement from the Cottesmore or Hunting Office 🤷🏻‍♀️
		
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I think their statement was to the ITV news though I agree it would be helpful to have it on their social media.  They may be reluctant however, to join in the social media pile-on.


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

Koweyka said:



			Isn't there a quote that says “Tradition is peer pressure from dead people”
As the most wildlife depleted country in the world the management occurring at the moment appears to be doing a p poor job of it.

Shooting estates are vile, my group got a shooting estate cautioned for killing a bird of prey and destroying the nest, it was only because we couldn’t prove who actually shot the bird (which gamekeeper) the police couldn’t prosecute more fully.

The stink pits on there were horrendous, foxes bodies piled up including tiny cubs, all manor of birds on there, they were too stupid not to burn the BOP body as we were able to send it for PM it was peppered with shot laying next to her nest.

Hopefully the shooting industry will go in the near future. Killing for fun is not acceptable, it’s a colossal waste of life.
		
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What has any of that got to do with @ycbm's curlew? 
I just wondered if there was any part of traditional rural management that you would value or see kept in tact @Koweyka  (not a question related to hunting or shooting necessarily as I understand why you would like those gone). I am interested in what your wider view of the countryside and how best to manage it is.


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## Nancykitt (8 November 2021)

Re. the shooting debate - my main issue is raptor persecution on the grouse moors. It actually seems to be getting worse and while people will tend to blame the gamekeepers there are calls for the estate owners to take responsibility for the illegal shooting & trapping of birds of prey, particularly on the grouse moors. There is shocking footage which has led to prosecutions but the problem persists. There is a campaign for these shoots to be licensed with the licenses being withdrawn if there is evidence of illegal activity.

Back to the hunt incident: I just wonder what drag and bloodhound packs would need to do to distance themselves from the campaigns promoting that all hunting is bad and involves abuse of animals. I worry that there is actually very little that can be done. We once had 'monitors' out with us, it was all very civil, they saw nothing that worried them. But I  think that such positive relationships are probably extremely rare.


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## MotherOfChickens (8 November 2021)

Wow at some of these responses, why do some on here still find violence agains


palo1 said:



			I know we really differ in perspectives on this sort of thing @ycbm but I would ask you to consider the safety of your own wildlife; you have incredibly threatened curlew on your ground I understand.  I am sure that you have researched the threats to those ground nesting birds which you are very lucky to have but if you haven't it may be worth you devising your own plan for protecting them.  I completely understand not wanting to have magpies or buzzards shot by someone else, or at all but it is vital that if ground nesting birds are to survive (and curlew are on the absolute brink of survival) that predation on them is reduced somehow.  There are a number of threats which you may be able to mitigate in ways that you are happy with. That has nothing to do with pheasants by the way, but predators!
		
Click to expand...


we have alot of curlew in the summer and no shoots. magpies and buzzards 'tick'.


I'm no huge fan of magpies and I know farmers that loathe them (and corvids generally)  but local wildlife (a mix of open moor, old deciduous/beech woods and forestry plus about 2,000 acres of grazing/forestry left to run wild for 15 years) is doing very well without being managed by people who want to shoot. No foxhunts either, thank goodness. 

One species that isnt doing as well as it was 5 years ago is the hen harrier, because we are in fact (as the harrier flies) quite close to the shooting estate being investigated for raptor persecution.


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

Nancykitt said:



			Re. the shooting debate - my main issue is raptor persecution on the grouse moors. It actually seems to be getting worse and while people will tend to blame the gamekeepers there are calls for the estate owners to take responsibility for the illegal shooting & trapping of birds of prey, particularly on the grouse moors. There is shocking footage which has led to prosecutions but the problem persists. There is a campaign for these shoots to be licensed with the licenses being withdrawn if there is evidence of illegal activity.

Back to the hunt incident: I just wonder what drag and bloodhound packs would need to do to distance themselves from the campaigns promoting that all hunting is bad and involves abuse of animals. I worry that there is actually very little that can be done. We once had 'monitors' out with us, it was all very civil, they saw nothing that worried them. But I  think that such positive relationships are probably extremely rare.
		
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Well the positive stuff isn't publicised -not much news value in 'Monitors agree that legal hunting is in place'... We have had monitors out too several years ago; very polite and again nothing for them to report.    But monitors seem less common than sabs!!  I think neither drag nor bloodhounding packs particularly want to distance themselves possibly because of the common thread of hound breeding and hound work and both of those groups have also been targeted.  Some hunts that were trail hunting have moved over to drag hunting so the community isn't neatly divided.


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2021)

Amymay said:



			I suspect the fall out from this is going to be pretty huge. The lady’s been named all over sm, her place of work identified and National press picking up on the story.

But still no official statement from the Cottesmore or Hunting Office 🤷🏻‍♀️
		
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IF (and this a big IF) the identity being spread around is correct, it gets even worse than it first appeared, and that was bad enough .

If it isn't her, then I hope that the name is removed from SM asap.

The Cottesmore will know who the horse hitter really is, and should step in now to clarify if a blameless person has been wrongly outed.


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## YorksG (8 November 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			IF (and this a big IF) the identity being spread around is correct, it gets even worse than it first appeared, and that was bad enough .

If it isn't her, then I hope that the name is removed from SM asap.

The hunt will know who the horse hitter really is, and should step in now if a blameless person has been wrongly outed.
		
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Surely it is the responsibility of the people "naming" and " hunting" this woman to ensure that they have at least named the correct person? I cannot see how anyone can believe that it is a third parties responsibility to correct the error.


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

MotherOfChickens said:



			Wow at some of these responses, why do some on here still find violence agains



we have alot of curlew in the summer and no shoots. magpies and buzzards 'tick'.


I'm no huge fan of magpies and I know farmers that loathe them (and corvids generally)  but local wildlife (a mix of open moor, old deciduous/beech woods and forestry plus about 2,000 acres of grazing/forestry left to run wild for 15 years) is doing very well without being managed by people who want to shoot. No foxhunts either, thank goodness.

One species that isnt doing as well as it was 5 years ago is the hen harrier, because we are in fact (as the harrier flies) quite close to the shooting estate being investigated for raptor persecution.
		
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That is fantastic about the curlew but not so good about hen harriers.  If you have healthy numbers of curlew I hope you are updating CurlewCountry with those as your situation is definitely bucking the trend and would be really significant.  If the land you mention isn't yours, do you know how that is funded/managed?


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			IF (and this a big IF) the identity being spread around is correct, it gets even worse than it first appeared, and that was bad enough .

If it isn't her, then I hope that the name is removed from SM asap.

The Cottesmore will know who the horse hitter really is, and should step in now to clarify if a blameless person has been wrongly outed.
		
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It is dire to have this kind of sm frenzy because of attention drawn to it by a celebrity.  If any one of us tried to draw attention to a similar instance of animal cruelty it would remain totally unnoticed.  That isn't to say this behaviour shouldn't be called out and challenged but the pack mentality on these occasions is really grim.  CP should really consider his actions more carefully.


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## Peglo (8 November 2021)

I watched a programme where they were shooting white hare because they were apparently giving grouse ticks and they wanted to shoot the grouse so had to shoot the hare to shoot the grouse….. it’s dung like that that makes me hate shooting. before humans took over the majority of land all the species had plenty of room to live together without needing to be killed by humans. But that’s a whole other topic!

i think it’s important to discuss the woman’s behaviour on the forum. This is a place where people come for tips and advice on horses and it’s good to remind people if they are seeing that sort of abuse at shows and yards often that it is never tolerated or acceptable. Also there may be strong opinions on here but I don’t believe anyone on the forum is mental enough to hunt the woman down. But CP has deliberately used his celebrity status and all his followers to shame and rally hate against one woman on SM. I just find that really scary as you have no idea what folk might do.

on a high note we have an abundance of curlews up here (or whaps as we call them.) hopefully the ducking stoat invasion won’t damage their numbers.


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2021)

YorksG said:



			Surely it is the responsibility of the people "naming" and " hunting" this woman to ensure that they have at least named the correct person? I cannot see how anyone can believe that it is a third parties responsibility to correct the error.
		
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I am very uncomfortable with an unconfirmed name being bandied about on SM, but if the name is correct, there is a connection (not sure if current or former) to the Cottesmore, who could swiftly put paid to it.

This needs clearing up ASAP if the name of an innocent party, inc details of her profession and alleged place of employment, is being falsely bandied about.


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## TPO (8 November 2021)

The person named is a Hunt Master, if correct ID, but the hunt have said this person isn't a member of their hunt?

If she is who has been named surely the Hunt should have said nothing rather than outright lie?

*goes without saying I think she's a disgusting human and I don't condone her actions at all


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## PapaverFollis (8 November 2021)

Social media:  judge, jury and executioner.  Who cares if the name is wrong?  As long as people feel better about themselves for fighting evil, eh?


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## MotherOfChickens (8 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			That is fantastic about the curlew but not so good about hen harriers.  If you have healthy numbers of curlew I hope you are updating CurlewCountry with those as your situation is definitely bucking the trend and would be really significant.  If the land you mention isn't yours, do you know how that is funded/managed?
		
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Its farmland mostly, the moorland is privately owned but the Kirk graze on it, and there is some muirburn on the hill but no shooting. Its almost all pasture here except the odd field of barley or neeps for grazing in rotation. Cattle are housed October throught to May(ish) and there will be some blackies on the hill and mules closer to home. Its poor land which is never overgrazed.  We have a good population of curlews in the spring/summer, oyster catchers, peewits, stoats and weasels, otter down in the woods, too many badgers, mistle and song thrushes, green and spotted woodpeckers, owls, hare, voles, kingfishers, red grouse, a couple of peregrines a few years ago, merlin, the odd kite (who generally gets chased off by ravens), a whole myriad of warblers, finches, yellowhammers etc. The 2000 acres of disused grass/forestry-apart from a bit of stalking, no shooting occurs apart from a cople of old boys allowed to shoot on one bit of land next to land I rent, but they just shoot whatever feral pheasant they find and mostly just enjoy working their two dogs, they have nothing to do with managing the land. Much of the hill is too rough to allow jo public to walk their stupid dogs, which is a bonus too.

 I grew up in Suffolk, I remember seeing gamekeepers gibbets and an absolute dearth of small mammals even though we were relatively rural and I remember the small birds disappearing due to hedgerow loss-glad to see the finches and yellowhammers up here. As an adult I saw the large shoots around Newmarket. While I understand there will be shoots doing good work wrt land management, I do not agree they are required to enable wildlife to flourish.

I know what the local farmers think about shooting as they are my neighbours and friends, a couple of them let me use their land so I can help keep an eye on anything untoward that might be going on (coursing for one, deer poaching another, hiding stolen goods yet another lol) and I know their thoughts on ground nesting birds, badgers, ravens, hare, raptors and those that profess to control them. CurlewCounty is in England only I think? I do keep the hen harrier people informed but sadly, apart from a quick sighting earlier this year, I've not seen one for about 5 years.

dont get me started on the culling of mountain hare.


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

Ah, Scotland!! Another country indeed.  One thing I have noticed and discussed with friends is how, hereabouts, poverty has been, for wildlife and community in part, a social good; it has prevented all sorts of 'improvement' and development with the result that nature/wildlife has a better shot at things.  A lot of hill farmers either don't need or can't afford fertilisers etc and don't have time and energy to 'keep things tidy' which seems like an increasingly suburban influence in the countryside.   In the same way, for communities there are not the same levels of disparity in wealth and poverty though I am far from denying really serious social problems and deprivation in the countryside.  It just feels a bit as if it is less bad generally than where intensive agriculture, development and suburbanisation/gentrification has taken place. 

We have curlew, peregrines, masses of kite, buzzards, ravens, polecats, stoats and weasels as well as otters, badgers, foxes, deer, wild pigs and all manner of 'general' bird life and dark skies.  Where I used to live we had nightingales though their disappearance was something that brought me to realise how utterly vital it is to look after those habitats and threatened species.  

I know it is very different where there is far more pressure on land and populations and more money to 'improve' things.


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## Fellewell (8 November 2021)

Flame_ said:



			TBF it's more reasonable to expect a man to explain to his wife why he is angry and frustrated with her than it is for a human to explain it to a horse by having a dialogue. Horses do tell each other they're out of order by booting them.

In these circumstances it can't be in any way justified since from the horse's POV, it was punished for being caught, the human's behavior served no purpose at all except to demonstrate to the other humans what a "badass" she was, and she ended up looking, at best, a tit, at worst a cow.
		
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Agree with this post, I think she was trying to demonstrate how 'badass' she was to the people filming/harassing her.
yes the correction was totally disproportionate but I think it was a 'get any closer to me and the kids and you're next' kind of thing. That and the fact that a loose horse on a public highway is a danger to itself and others and would have ramped up the tension further.
As for all the outraged posters. I can remember posters asking for advice on an errant horse being advised on imaginative ways to use blue pipe. A lot of 'road to Damascus' moments since then apparently.
Well done to the Cottesmore though. A bunch of sabs couldn't find anything other than a lone women and some kids trying to load ponies.


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## ester (8 November 2021)

TPO said:



			The person named is a Hunt Master, if correct ID, but the hunt have said this person isn't a member of their hunt?

If she is who has been named surely the Hunt should have said nothing rather than outright lie?

*goes without saying I think she's a disgusting human and I don't condone her actions at all
		
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I haven't seen that she is a HM? Just involved with the PC?


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## fetlock (8 November 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			I am very uncomfortable with an unconfirmed name being bandied about on SM, but if the name is correct, there is a connection (not sure if current or former) to the Cottesmore, who could swiftly put paid to it.

This needs clearing up ASAP if the name of an innocent party, inc details of her profession and alleged place of employment, is being falsely bandied about.
		
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This is the second name being bandied about. 
The first name - identified apparently via facial recognition software the sabs used- was apparently wrong. Before that became apparent the woman received phone calls. Imagine that. You're minding your own business, having a peaceful Sunday and suddenly nutters start ringing you non stop and making false accusations. No doubt the same is also happening re the new name on the block.

On this one I don't see why the hunt should have to step in to confirm or deny, to appease - and inflame- nutcases intent on taking things into their own hands, instead of letting the law take its course. Since, by then, legal repercussions were highly likely, I imagine the best course of action chosen by the hunt was to say nothing, or as far as on social media is concerned anyway.


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## Flame_ (8 November 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			I have to say I think the good / bad done by shooting is nuanced it’s extremely complicated .
Helping wildlife does not spring to the front of my mind .
		
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The only place I see deer around here is on the shooting estate! More shooting and hunting estates please!! Everywhere else they'd be mowed down by knobheads in seconds, not they'd want to hang around in the concrete built up mess anyway.


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## Kaylum (8 November 2021)

Shouldn't we as the equestrian community be saying this behaviour is unacceptable in any situation. Not blame someone else for the behaviour being filmed. 

My husband said he had seen the film and it put a really bad name on horse people. He is not horsey.


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## Amymay (8 November 2021)

ester said:



			I haven't seen that she is a HM? Just involved with the PC?
		
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I did see it mentioned on one fb post that she was a HM.


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## fetlock (8 November 2021)

Fellewell said:



			Agree with this post, I think she was trying to demonstrate how 'badass' she was to the people filming/harassing her.
yes the correction was totally disproportionate but I think it was a 'get any closer to me and the kids and you're next' kind of thing. That and the fact that a loose horse on a public highway is a danger to itself and others and would have ramped up the tension further.
As for all the outraged posters. I can remember posters asking for advice on an errant horse being advised on imaginative ways to use blue pipe. A lot of 'road to Damascus' moments since then apparently.
Well done to the Cottesmore though. A bunch of sabs couldn't find anything other than a lone women and some kids trying to load ponies.
		
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A loose horse on a country lane does not merit several whacks to its head and a boot in it's chest as its reward for quietly and calmly walking a few yards to a handler.

I could kind of excuse it, had it been one slap as a instantaneous reaction when in shock to something really scary happening and instinct is to strike out but this wasn't that at all - a kick, then the series of hard slaps when, if anything, a calming pat would have been in order.

The hysteria over it is one matter but let's not condone what she did. There really isn't any excuse for it.


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## Sussexbythesea (8 November 2021)

southerncomfort said:



			To be honest I'm more afraid of it being used against the whole horse community.

The general public won't differentiate between a rider that hunts and one that doesn't. All they'll see is a rider punching her horse in the face for seemingly no reason.

It reflects badly on ALL of us and that's why we must not EVER defend this sort of behaviour.
		
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As a community we do need to stamp this behaviour out wherever it occurs and that’s difficult if you’re the only person trying to do it. At organised shows and events there needs to be strong policy followed by decisive action if this kind of behaviour is witnessed. More people would stand up to it if they thought they would get support. People are much less likely to do it if there are consequences.

I called a teenager out a few years ago when she was smacking her horse around after she’d had a bad round. There were plenty of other people around at the RC event that ignored the behaviour.


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## MotherOfChickens (8 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			Ah, Scotland!! Another country indeed.  One thing I have noticed and discussed with friends is how, hereabouts, poverty has been, for wildlife and community in part, a social good; it has prevented all sorts of 'improvement' and development with the result that nature/wildlife has a better shot at things.  A lot of hill farmers either don't need or can't afford fertilisers etc and don't have time and energy to 'keep things tidy' which seems like an increasingly suburban influence in the countryside.   In the same way, for communities there are not the same levels of disparity in wealth and poverty though I am far from denying really serious social problems and deprivation in the countryside.  It just feels a bit as if it is less bad generally than where intensive agriculture, development and suburbanisation/gentrification has taken place.

We have curlew, peregrines, masses of kite, buzzards, ravens, polecats, stoats and weasels as well as otters, badgers, foxes, deer, wild pigs and all manner of 'general' bird life and dark skies.  Where I used to live we had nightingales though their disappearance was something that brought me to realise how utterly vital it is to look after those habitats and threatened species. 

I know it is very different where there is far more pressure on land and populations and more money to 'improve' things. 

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there's something to be said for living on land thats so wet, no other ***** wants to live here and not much can be grown here. Of course, if farming gets thrown to th wall, they will just plant spruce because nothing else will grow.


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## Gloi (8 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			I know we really differ in perspectives on this sort of thing @ycbm but I would ask you to consider the safety of your own wildlife; you have incredibly threatened curlew on your ground I understand.  I am sure that you have researched the threats to those ground nesting birds which you are very lucky to have but if you haven't it may be worth you devising your own plan for protecting them.  I completely understand not wanting to have magpies or buzzards shot by someone else, or at all but it is vital that if ground nesting birds are to survive (and curlew are on the absolute brink of survival) that predation on them is reduced somehow.  There are a number of threats which you may be able to mitigate in ways that you are happy with. That has nothing to do with pheasants by the way, but predators!
		
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There were curlew nesting in a field near me last year and the field got cut for silage while they were nesting and I haven't seen any this year 🙁


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## Red-1 (8 November 2021)

If the name I just saw being bandied about on SM is correct, it will impact her employment in a school. 

I do hope people have got the right person, being accused of this would be awful anyway, but if people are told it was you, and it wasn't, my sense of justice would find that worse. 

If it is the correct person, I wouldn't like to be the head teacher trying to sort out the fallout. I would imagine there will be disruption to learning at school this week. I would imagine the daughter is having an awful day either way. The same with the PC, if it is the person named, I can't imagine that it would be good publicity to keep her on as coach, however good a teacher she is.

I do think it should have been passed to the RSPCA privately. I agree that it is because of the hunting connection that it has been done so publicly.  I do think that the public fallout will make employment in teaching or equestrianism difficult. That could be a pity as, if this is the correct person, she may well be an excellent classroom teacher who could be lost to the profession. 

However, I also think that it will make people think very carefully about striking a horse in anger, which has to be a good thing.


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

MotherOfChickens said:



			there's something to be said for living on land thats so wet, no other ***** wants to live here and not much can be grown here. Of course, if farming gets thrown to th wall, they will just plant spruce because nothing else will grow.
		
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Yes, and that would be utterly disastrous


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## Fellewell (8 November 2021)

fetlock said:



			A loose horse on a country lane does not merit several whacks to its head and a boot in it's chest as its reward for quietly and calmly walking a few yards to a handler.

I could kind of excuse it, had it been one slap as a instantaneous reaction when in shock to something really scary happening and instinct is to strike out but this wasn't that at all - a kick, then the series of hard slaps when, if anything, a calming pat would have been in order.

The hysteria over it is one matter but let's not condone what she did. There really isn't any excuse for it.
		
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I'll say it again, the correction was totally disproportionate. A bit like this witch-hunt.


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

Gloi said:



			There were curlew nesting in a field near me last year and the field got cut for silage while they were nesting and I haven't seen any this year 🙁
		
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Oh god that is dreadful  The farmers in these parts thankfully are generally very protective and very, very careful about curlew and that obviously helps other things.

There is a slight 'We haven't got much money but we do have curlews' one-upmanship thing too which is quite comical - two old boys in flat caps and trousers held up with good will alone leaning over a knackered gate looking at a boggy field deciding who has the better curlews...lol!!

Sorry, didn't mean to derail the thread.


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## SO1 (8 November 2021)

I expect both organisations are taking legal advice or advice from public relations agency about what to say to the media. They may not have easy access to this yesterday which was a non working day. 



Amymay said:



			I suspect the fall out from this is going to be pretty huge. The lady’s been named all over sm, her place of work identified and National press picking up on the story.

But still no official statement from the Cottesmore or Hunting Office 🤷🏻‍♀️
		
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## windand rain (8 November 2021)

To be honest the witch hunt is far far worse than the crime. The pony will likely have forgotten all about it happy in its well fed world. The crucifying of the woman especially impacting on her employment and social life is horrific. You dont see many sabs filming the top illegal crime round here that of Hare coursing because they are terrified of the element that do it. Police try hard but the coursers are usually tipped off or moved on before they get there. Any type of animal cruelty is abhorrent but so is abandoning responsibility to teach manners to animals and young people. Never threaten what you are not prepared to carry through. I think I would be inclined to prosecute whoever filmed it too as incitement


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## ycbm (8 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			I know we really differ in perspectives on this sort of thing @ycbm but I would ask you to consider the safety of your own wildlife; you have incredibly threatened curlew on your ground I understand.  I am sure that you have researched the threats to those ground nesting birds which you are very lucky to have but if you haven't it may be worth you devising your own plan for protecting them.  I completely understand not wanting to have magpies or buzzards shot by someone else, or at all but it is vital that if ground nesting birds are to survive (and curlew are on the absolute brink of survival) that predation on them is reduced somehow.  There are a number of threats which you may be able to mitigate in ways that you are happy with. That has nothing to do with pheasants by the way, but predators!
		
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There are plenty of curlew around here thanks Palo, they don't seem to need any extra help from me.  There were at least as many,  possibly more,  before someone killed the magpie and buzzards.


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## Winters100 (8 November 2021)

Fellewell said:



			Well done to the Cottesmore though. A bunch of sabs couldn't find anything other than a lone women and some kids trying to load ponies.
		
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The problem is that this attitude is exactly what causes problems for hunting.  The hunt have not come forward to say that they have identified the person and banned them from hunting, they have not even said that they are investigating and will take appropriate action.  Perhaps the woman has been admonished by the hunt, or perhaps there is a lot of sympathy for her being riled up by the "bunch of sabs" referred to above.  Either way I would not be congratulating the hunt, and I certainly do not view the incident as simply a woman with some children trying to load ponies.  The poor pony did not 'canter into the road' as reported by some media, he was simply not asked correctly to load, the child dropped the lead rope, and he jogged over to the other horse and allowed himself to be caught.  Hardly a terrifying situation, and certainly not the fault of the pony. This was a disgraceful display of temper by an adult who should have known better.

Edited to add that it is a real shame that things are like this with hunting. A friend of mine hunts, and has many times offered to give me a horse and take me along when I visit the UK, but I would not want to be associated with this kind of activity. If there was an opportunity to do some genuine activity, trail hunt or similar, which did not involve surreptitiously chasing foxes / trampling people's gardens etc then I would love it, but as things are I would not want to be involved.


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## SO1 (8 November 2021)

A good teacher is not violent towards an animal in front of a child. 

This is just awful for the child involved and I think it will be very difficult for this person to get employment again. Hopefully she is not a single parent and the child does not lose her pony or get into dire straits as a result of her mother actions. 

I appreciate emotions run high and I expect things end up on social media due to lack of faith that organisations will deal with these incidents internally appropriately. Reporting her behaviour to the hunt would have probably got nowhere and the RSPCA probably would not have done anything either as the horse has to be practically dead before they seem to take action.



Red-1 said:



			If the name I just saw being bandied about on SM is correct, it will impact her employment in a school. 

I do hope people have got the right person, being accused of this would be awful anyway, but if people are told it was you, and it wasn't, my sense of justice would find that worse. 

If it is the correct person, I wouldn't like to be the head teacher trying to sort out the fallout. I would imagine there will be disruption to learning at school this week. I would imagine the daughter is having an awful day either way. The same with the PC, if it is the person named, I can't imagine that it would be good publicity to keep her on as coach, however good a teacher she is.

I do think it should have been passed to the RSPCA privately. I agree that it is because of the hunting connection that it has been done so publicly.  I do think that the public fallout will make employment in teaching or equestrianism difficult. That could be a pity as, if this is the correct person, she may well be an excellent classroom teacher who could be lost to the profession. 

However, I also think that it will make people think very carefully about striking a horse in anger, which has to be a good thing.
		
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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2021)

Red-1 said:



			If the name I just saw being bandied about on SM is correct, it will impact her employment in a school.
		
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That's the name that I've seen being spread around. The school seems to have frozen its FB page. 

IF she is the woman in the video, then I would not want my child entrusted to the care of someone with such a temper. I imagine that I would not be alone in that. So IF it is her, this is potentially career ending.


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## YorksG (8 November 2021)

SO1 said:



			A good teacher is not violent towards an animal in front of a child.

This is just awful for the child involved and I think it will be very difficult for this person to get employment again. Hopefully she is not a single parent and the child does not lose her pony or get into dire straits as a result of her mother actions.

I appreciate emotions run high and I expect things end up on social media due to lack of faith that organisations will deal with these incidents internally appropriately. Reporting her behaviour to the hunt would have probably got nowhere and the RSPCA probably would not have done anything either as the horse has to be practically dead before they seem to take action.
		
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This ended up on social media because a self styled expert, who has a large presence on a publicly owned broadcaster, felt it appropriate to put it on social media, in the guise of drawing the attention of the RSPCA


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## AdorableAlice (8 November 2021)

Amymay said:



			I suspect the fall out from this is going to be pretty huge. The lady’s been named all over sm, her place of work identified and National press picking up on the story.

But still no official statement from the Cottesmore or Hunting Office 🤷🏻‍♀️
		
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Disgraceful behaviour, poor pony and you do have to wonder what goes on at home.  The fall out will be huge, but would the incident have got to national press etc if the incident had happened in the lorry park of a county show, a dressage show, a pleasure ride, hunter trial etc etc ?

Of course it would not, whoever saw it happen in those settings might have commented to the secretary or to the woman herself, or maybe just climbed into their lorry muttering how awful it was.  It has got as far as it has because it was in the hunting setting, not because of the appalling treatment of the pony.


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## ycbm (8 November 2021)

Flame_ said:



			The only place I see deer around here is on the shooting estate! More shooting and hunting estates please!! Everywhere else they'd be mowed down by knobheads in seconds, not they'd want to hang around in the concrete built up mess anyway.
		
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I had a red deer hoof print in my arena last week 😁
.


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## Flame_ (8 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			I had a red deer hoof print in my arena last week 😁
.
		
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Well I'm very jealous, but isn't that mainly because you're surrounded by shooting estates not housing estates?


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## SO1 (8 November 2021)

I think a lot of people in the horse community have just given up reporting things to officials because nothing happens. 

This sort of behaviour happens at a show you report it to an official and I can almost guarantee nothing would happen or possibly at best an official saying "that is inappropriate please do not do that again" there would no banning them from competing or removal of qualification. People who been prosecuted are still allowed to complete they change their name, run their horse via family member of another professional but most of time people don't get any ban. 

I do think that this person is probably not a suitable person to be a teacher if they struggle to control their temper in front of child.

I do think social media should be the last resort if you have not got a satisfactory result from other organisations. 

Sadly there is more publicity about this then there has been for the pony killed by fireworks or some worst case of cruelty like the Kate G case. I think this is a result of the association with hunting and the distrust of the general public and a lot of celebs of the hunting community. 

This is the 3rd high profile case with hunting this year following the sad death of a child and the problem with webinars. 



AdorableAlice said:



			Disgraceful behaviour, poor pony and you do have to wonder what goes on at home.  The fall out will be huge, but would the incident have got to national press etc if the incident had happened in the lorry park of a county show, a dressage show, a pleasure ride, hunter trial etc etc ?

Of course it would not, whoever saw it happen in those settings might have commented to the secretary or to the woman herself, or maybe just climbed into their lorry muttering how awful it was.  It has got as far as it has because it was in the hunting setting, not because of the appalling treatment of the pony.
		
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## ycbm (8 November 2021)

Flame_ said:



			Well I'm very jealous, but isn't that mainly because you're surrounded by shooting estates not housing estates?
		
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Clever 🙂, I like it. 

It's because I live in a National Park, I don't think the shooting has anything to do with it.  We have a number of small herds of red deer which live in local wooded areas.

I've seen them on my field before but it's the first time I've seen a hoofprint in my arena, I did a double take.


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## kc921 (8 November 2021)

YorksG said:



			I would also want to know the source of the video, and the date an time an possibly context.
		
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In what possible context, time or date does this even matter? 
There is no excuse to treat a horse in such a way under any context. 
What is wrong with people


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## Berpisc (8 November 2021)

Flame_ said:



			Well I'm very jealous, but isn't that mainly because you're surrounded by shooting estates not housing estates?
		
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We are tenants on a shooting estate, they have improved vastly over the last 25 years, we have a sound population of raptors and plenty of deer. We also have a population of lampers and poachers who dont give a rats anal orifice about the law and are not botherd who they intimidate.  Not seen on SM or the telly.


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## spotty_pony (8 November 2021)

Just watched as it’s one of my local packs - just trying to identify who it is!! Stupid behaviour and totally unnecessary.


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## Amymay (8 November 2021)

SO1 said:



			I expect both organisations are taking legal advice or advice from public relations agency about what to say to the media. They may not have easy access to this yesterday which was a non working day.
		
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Yes, I’m sure you’re right.


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2021)

Recent update from BBC, who rarely report on anything negative to hunting, unlike ITV.

No confirmed name yet.

Anger after woman filmed kicking and hitting horse https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-59208702

The video has over 2 million views.


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## Clodagh (8 November 2021)

I think it’s rather extreme to suggest she shouldn’t be a teacher.
There’s a huge outcry when people say if their dog gets attacked ‘it might be a child next’ . She walloped a pony, which was wrong, I doubt she’ll be punching children at school next week.
This thread gets more bonkers by the minute!


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## skinnydipper (8 November 2021)

Whatever her occupation, she is, in my opinion, not a nice person.  

If I had children I would not be happy if one of their role models kicked and punched animals.


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## meleeka (8 November 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I think it’s rather extreme to suggest she shouldn’t be a teacher.
There’s a huge outcry when people say if their dog gets attacked ‘it might be a child next’ . She walloped a pony, which was wrong, I doubt she’ll be punching children at school next week.
This thread gets more bonkers by the minute!
		
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The comment was about her losing her temper and I agree, if she can’t keep a lid on that she shouldn’t be a teacher.  

i suppose it depends on how seriously you view her crime.  I think a slap on the neck is more appropriate if you feel that there’s no other way (and of course there always is), but this is just bullying and intimidation.  How can you lecture kids on why it’s not ok to bully another kid, when everyone’s seen you on video doing it to a horse?!


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## MotherOfChickens (8 November 2021)

I've just watched it again, I fail to see what the pony did wrong, handler dropped the lead rope, pony trotted off to its friend, handed itself in. And judging by its reaction, its quite used to being treated this way as the poor thing just shuts down. she didnt just rattle the leadrope in frustration, she decided where she would kick it, kicked it and then hit it round the head repeatedly.

makes me feel quite ill, she doesnt deserve a horse. a good reminder why I avoid horse people generally (although when I worked in racing, hitting a horse or kicking it was an instant sacking offence).
doesnt matter if you've all seen worse (but ffs do something about it when you see it!). And yes, I do if I see it-three times in my lifetime, most recently late last year.


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## NinjaPony (8 November 2021)

Schools have a serious legal duty to safeguard their children, and this involves a lot of screening of teachers to make sure they are whiter than white. What school would want to employ a teacher who has been caught on camera physically abusing a horse like that? Imagine defending that to parents and the board of governors. You have to see it from their perspective, they have a duty to take these things seriously.


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2021)

Recent (as in 45 minutes ago) post on the Hertfordshire Hunt Saboteurs FB page (they are the group who originally posted the video).

_'We do not have a name we are 100% sure on. If other pages wish to go public with names there is nothing we can do about that, but we won't share until we are 110% sure of the identity of the person. Our main focus is that it's a cottemore rider and she represents the hunt with her behaviour and actions..'_


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## ycbm (8 November 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Recent (as in 45 minutes ago) post on the Hertfordshire Hunt Saboteurs FB page (they are the group who originally posted the video).

_'We do not have a name we are 100% sure on. If other pages wish to go public with names there is nothing we can do about that, but we won't share until we are 110% sure of the identity of the person. Our main focus is that it's a cottemore rider and she represents the hunt with her behaviour and actions..'_

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Statistical literacy not their strong point 🤣


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## Pearlsasinger (8 November 2021)

Schools have access to LA 'Emergency Planning', even if they are not LA schools, 24/7/365.    People are usually only dismissed from teaching in circumstances such as these, after a guilty verdict in a court case.   Neither a governing body, nor a Headteacher, can just sack a teacher without due process, even supposing that the woman in question is a teacher.


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## AFishOutOfWater (8 November 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Schools have access to LA 'Emergency Planning', even if they are not LA schools, 24/7/365.    People are usually only dismissed from teaching in circumstances such as these, after a guilty verdict in a court case.   Neither a governing body, nor a Headteacher, can just sack a teacher without due process, even supposing that the woman in question is a teacher.
		
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But animal abuse would flag on an enchanced DBS check anyway wouldn't it? Which they have to do I think annually (can't remember)?


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2021)

As a parent, though, I am free to choose who teaches my children. Especially if I am paying private school fees. I would walk from such a culture and take my children with me, leaving the school to sort it out.

Still the big IF it is the widely touted name.


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## Miss_Millie (8 November 2021)

It's funny how entitled human beings can be. The fact that horses let us ride them at all is an absolute privilege, there is nothing more humbling to me than being in the presence of a horse.

I'm quite saddened by the amount of people saying that what she did wasn't that bad or somehow suggesting that she was provoked. The horse was quiet as a lamb. I hope that the horse is seized and re-homed to someone who will never lay a hand on it like that vile woman did.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (8 November 2021)

Anybody doing that to any horses at my yard would be given immediate notice; THEN I'd kick the cr@p out of them and hammer their head with fisticuffs to see how they liked it.

Then she'll wonder why her horse won't be caught in future and why it won't load. Poor horse deserves a better owner than this.

Total unacceptable behaviour in any circumstances.

What I find truly astounding is that these very people who want their Sport to continue really do seem hell-bent on exhibiting the very behaviour that will attract the wrong sort of attention and heap even more disgrace on hunting then there already is right now, sadly.

Personally whilst I'm no fan of the RSPCA I would be glad if they'd throw the book at this vile apology for a person. Nasty bad tempered woman!


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## YorksG (8 November 2021)

Those who dislike violence, advocating violence is strange and unpleasant


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

skinnydipper said:



			Whatever her occupation, she is, in my opinion, not a nice person. 

If I had children I would not be happy if one of their role models kicked and punched animals.
		
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Yes, but sadly most parents haven't got a clue what their children's teachers may or may not do at home or when they are out and about...Do you know what your children's teachers are actually up to in their spare time?  Does it bother you generally when you drop them off at school?  If this woman had done this when she was at a RC comp or something no-one would know and in fact although people might have disapproved you can bet that not a soul would have announced her unfit to work!  Her career and her life might have been vandalised because CP hates hunting...It's utterly spiteful and dangerous egotism on his part though she should NOT have hit or kicked the pony either on her own or in front of a child and some sabs.


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## fetlock (8 November 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			As a parent, though, I am free to choose who teaches my children. Especially if I am paying private school fees. I would walk from such a culture and take my children with me, leaving the school to sort it out.

Still the big IF it is the widely touted name.
		
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Pics for this person show someone with very short hair. Maybe the pics are old and the hair's since grown by about a foot.. or they're targeting the wrong person. I'm favouring the latter of the two as normally, as you age, your hair/hairstyle gets shorter, not longer.


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## Nancykitt (8 November 2021)

Snail said:



			But animal abuse would flag on an enchanced DBS check anyway wouldn't it? Which they have to do I think annually (can't remember)?
		
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Any offence (including cautions) will come up on an enhanced DBS. But there's no requirement for the school to do them annually; schools used to do it every three years but many don't carry out routine DBS for staff who have been with them for some time.

Even then, it's not the sort of thing that would mean an automatic dismissal - these tend to be offences related directly to children & young people. 
I've seen two names doing the rounds and apparently they both work in schools? 
It would certainly be a tricky case for a school to deal with.


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## Backtoblack (8 November 2021)

Miss_Millie said:



			It's funny how entitled human beings can be. The fact that horses let us ride them at all is an absolute privilege, there is nothing more humbling to me than being in the presence of a horse.

I'm quite saddened by the amount of people saying that what she did wasn't that bad or somehow suggesting that she was provoked. The horse was quiet as a lamb. I hope that the horse is seized and re-homed to someone who will never lay a hand on it like that vile woman did.
		
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Totally agree


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			Anybody doing that to any horses at my yard would be given immediate notice; THEN I'd kick the cr@p out of them and hammer their head with fisticuffs to see how they liked it.

Then she'll wonder why her horse won't be caught in future and why it won't load. Poor horse deserves a better owner than this.

Total unacceptable behaviour in any circumstances.

What I find truly astounding is that these very people who want their Sport to continue really do seem hell-bent on exhibiting the very behaviour that will attract the wrong sort of attention and heap even more disgrace on hunting then there already is right now, sadly.

Personally whilst I'm no fan of the RSPCA I would be glad if they'd throw the book at this vile apology for a person. Nasty bad tempered woman!
		
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Really???!! I don't think the pony was injured - upset, yes and very badly treated but you would really 'kick the cr@p out of them and hammer their head with fisticuffs...'

Not sure that is proportionate tbh...


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## Backtoblack (8 November 2021)

fetlock said:



			Pics for this person show someone with very short hair. Maybe the pics are old and the hair's since grown by about a foot.. or they're targeting the wrong person. I'm favouring the latter of the two as normally, as you age, your hair/hairstyle gets shorter, not longer.
		
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I have much longer hair now I'm old it was shorter years ago, so the hair thing doesn't always follow.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (8 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			Really???!! I don't think the pony was injured - upset, yes and very badly treated but you would really 'kick the cr@p out of them and hammer their head with fisticuffs...'

Not sure that is proportionate tbh...
		
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Sorry but I disagree; yes I damn well WOULD lay into anyone I saw treating a horse like that!! There is no justification, ever, for treating any animal like that.


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## Backtoblack (8 November 2021)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			Anybody doing that to any horses at my yard would be given immediate notice; THEN I'd kick the cr@p out of them and hammer their head with fisticuffs to see how they liked it.

Then she'll wonder why her horse won't be caught in future and why it won't load. Poor horse deserves a better owner than this.

Total unacceptable behaviour in any circumstances.

What I find truly astounding is that these very people who want their Sport to continue really do seem hell-bent on exhibiting the very behaviour that will attract the wrong sort of attention and heap even more disgrace on hunting then there already is right now, sadly.

Personally whilst I'm no fan of the RSPCA I would be glad if they'd throw the book at this vile apology for a person. Nasty bad tempered woman!
		
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Hear hear


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			Sorry but I disagree; yes I damn well WOULD lay into anyone I saw treating a horse like that!! There is no justification, ever, for treating any animal like that.
		
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If that behaviour is unjustifiable why on earth would you enact that same behaviour on a person?  Surely there can't be a justification for that either? Hey ho, different strokes.


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

I wonder how many schools will be inundated with enquiries tomorrow or in the next few days as to whether any of the teachers have pets/stock/animals and if so how can they be sure that none of those animals are ever poorly treated?


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## Flame_ (8 November 2021)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			Sorry but I disagree; yes I damn well WOULD lay into anyone I saw treating a horse like that!! There is no justification, ever, for treating any animal like that.
		
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My horses bite each other's heads for a laugh harder than she hit that horse. And yes they throw their heads up with their eyes shut for a second like its the end of the world, then they mess about again and go and eat. What she did was bad horsemanship but it's being blown way out of proportion.


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## Backtoblack (8 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			If that behaviour is unjustifiable why on earth would you enact that same behaviour on a person?  Surely there can't be a justification for that either? Hey ho, different strokes.
		
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Because the horse is a defenceless animal at the mercy of its handlers and anyone condoning cruelty to it is not worthy of decent treatment, people can choose the poor horse can't .


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## Backtoblack (8 November 2021)

I can't believe that people are defending the abuser.


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			There are plenty of curlew around here thanks Palo, they don't seem to need any extra help from me.  There were at least as many,  possibly more,  before someone killed the magpie and buzzards.
		
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That is good news about the curlew on your ground but every single curlew does need help at the moment.  Their breeding success is catastrophically diminished and they are truly on the edge of survival in the UK.  There are a load of different threats to them.  I very much hope yours continue to survive and thrive.


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## Backtoblack (8 November 2021)

G


MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			Sorry but I disagree; yes I damn well WOULD lay into anyone I saw treating a horse like that!! There is no justification, ever, for treating any animal like that.
		
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 good for you, defending the poor abused animal from a vile human being.


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## meleeka (8 November 2021)

Flame_ said:



			My horses bite each other's heads for a laugh harder than she hit that horse. And yes they throw their heads up with their eyes shut for a second like its the end of the world, then they mess about again and go and eat. What she did was bad horsemanship but it's being blown way out of proportion.
		
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It’s abuse.


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## Pearlsasinger (8 November 2021)

Snail said:



			But animal abuse would flag on an enchanced DBS check anyway wouldn't it? Which they have to do I think annually (can't remember)?
		
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It would if the person were convicted, which since no-one seems to be sure of the name, appears to be unlikely


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

Backtoblack said:



			Because the horse is a defenceless animal at the mercy of its handlers and anyone condoning cruelty to it is not worthy of decent treatment, people can choose the poor horse can't .
		
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No one is defending the abuser - just discussing on that post whether beating the cr@p out of someone else is appropriate.  Of course horses can't choose - their life is a lottery and it is absolutely a privelege to handle a horse or other animal.  I don't imagine this individual would 'condone' cruelty - she couldn't control herself which is totally out of order but I bet she is very well aware of how poor her actions were.


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## SO1 (8 November 2021)

More violence is never the answer to these sort of problems. 

I expect being what is happening to her at the moment and the damage to her career and reputation by videos being shared via the press it is even the guardian now - is probably worse than being punched and kicked by you. 



MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			Sorry but I disagree; yes I damn well WOULD lay into anyone I saw treating a horse like that!! There is no justification, ever, for treating any animal like that.
		
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## Miss_Millie (8 November 2021)

Flame_ said:



			My horses bite each other's heads for a laugh harder than she hit that horse. And yes they throw their heads up with their eyes shut for a second like its the end of the world, then they mess about again and go and eat. What she did was bad horsemanship but it's being blown way out of proportion.
		
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No it isn't being blown out of proportion, she physically punished the horse who did absolutely nothing wrong. Shocking attitude.


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## IrishMilo (8 November 2021)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			Anybody doing that to any horses at my yard would be given immediate notice; THEN I'd kick the cr@p out of them and hammer their head with fisticuffs to see how they liked it.
		
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Backtoblack said:



			Because the horse is a defenceless animal at the mercy of its handlers and anyone condoning cruelty to it is not worthy of decent treatment, people can choose the poor horse can't .
		
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There's a difference between decent treatment and proactive physical violence and there's a definite irony in some of these comments. It's always strange how one minute people can be so into the Be Kind movement and the next week we're talking about smashing someone's face in. I don't think happy people behave in the way she did. And in a sense that makes me pity her. Do I also pity the horse? Yes. But he's already forgotten about it. I don't condone losing your temper with animals but horses do FAR worse to each other just when they're playing.

How would those who have absolutely obliterated this woman feel to discover she'd taken her life as a result of all this? Which is REALLY not out of the question.


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## Pearlsasinger (8 November 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			As a parent, though, I am free to choose who teaches my children. Especially if I am paying private school fees. I would walk from such a culture and take my children with me, leaving the school to sort it out.

Still the big IF it is the widely touted name.
		
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Indeed you are-and good luck in getting your money back for fees paid to a private school if you walk away immediately.   However it is not the role of parents to police the way that staff spend their free time, which is subject only to the same laws as everybody else..
 TBH, I am not convinced that the treatment, which I am disgusted by, would really amount to 'animal cruelty' in the eyes of the law, the pony did not appear to be seriously harmed/upset.  It is debateable (please let's not) whether she would be found guilty even if she were charged.


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## skinnydipper (8 November 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			the pony did not appear to be seriously harmed/upset.
		
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Learned helplessness


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## fetlock (8 November 2021)

The Times have now named her.


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## Miss_Millie (8 November 2021)

IrishMilo said:



			There's a difference between decent treatment and proactive physical violence and there's a definite irony in some of these comments. It's always strange how one minute people can be so into the Be Kind movement and the next week we're talking about smashing someone's face in. I don't think happy people behave in the way she did. And in a sense that makes me pity her.* Do I also pity the horse? Yes. But he's already forgotten about it.* I don't condone losing your temper with animals but what horses do FAR worse to each other just when they're playing.

How would those who have absolutely obliterated this woman feel to discover she'd taken her life as a result of all this? Which is REALLY not out of the question.
		
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It's funny how people keep saying he's already forgotten about it. I used to ride a lovely mare who was head shy as anything and would bite you if you would try to touch her face. I was the only one who could get a bridle on her after I spent months gaining her trust by being incredibly gentle with her and talking to her soothingly. 

Why was she head shy and aggressive? Because her previous owner used to hit her around the face all of the time. It's a flipping joke that people are suggesting the horse would not have been upset and potentially permanently affected by her violence towards it. Anyone who is happy to hit an animal should be banned from owning them, end of.


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## Velcrobum (8 November 2021)

SO1 said:



			I think a lot of people in the horse community have just given up reporting things to officials because nothing happens.

This sort of behaviour happens at a show you report it to an official and I can almost guarantee nothing would happen or possibly at best an official saying "that is inappropriate please do not do that again" there would no banning them from competing or removal of qualification. People who been prosecuted are still allowed to complete they change their name, run their horse via family member of another professional but most of time people don't get any ban.
.
		
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I have seen officials taking action. At a BE event some years ago a well known International French rider was witnessed kicking a horse from the ground in the girth area when in the horse box park. This was conveyed to the BE steward who sent out a call for said rider to attend secretaries tent immediately said rider then started effing and jeffing at the BE steward in front of a lot of people when the steward tried to get to rider somewhere more private. Step in the venues owner/organiser who promptly banned the rider from the competition told him to load up and leave. Rider had multiple entries was not happy but had to comply as the police got called after his public outburst. Rider got a total ban from the venue which also had extensive XC schooling facilities. BE stewards are pretty hot on stamping out horse abuse as are the FEI stewards.


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## Rumtytum (8 November 2021)

palo1 said:



			…. she couldn't control herself which is totally out of order but I bet she is very well aware of how poor her actions were.
		
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I disagree.  She could have controlled herself but she chose not to control herself.


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2021)

The Times would not be naming the woman in the video without a very positive ID. She is indeed a teacher, but is not the other name widely touted on sab pages.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-kicking-and-slapping-horse-in-face-0ctt5wmnm


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## MotherOfChickens (8 November 2021)

Flame_ said:



			My horses bite each other's heads for a laugh harder than she hit that horse. And yes they throw their heads up with their eyes shut for a second like its the end of the world, then they mess about again and go and eat. What she did was bad horsemanship but it's being blown way out of proportion.
		
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We’re not horses,they know we aren’t horses- what horses do to each other is never a reason for training methods or punishment.

as for the pony having already forgotten about it-that’s a fairly crappy attitude, even if that were the case, it’s still not right.


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## Backtoblack (8 November 2021)

The person filmed abusing the pony is named in an article in The Times.


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## palo1 (8 November 2021)

This whole episode is just grim really and demonstrates so many aspects of the worst that people can be - both in terms of the woman lashing out at the pony (and in front of a child) and the absolute storm of vitriol she is now on the end of   She hasn't been charged or prosecuted, nor had the chance to speak for herself but her name is all over SM and the press.  Huge impact on her and her family and connections as well as the school she works for and local community.  The hate-fest will force people to 'choose' sides and is deeply unpleasant.  It's not really covering anyone in glory...Just ghastly.


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## Winters100 (8 November 2021)

I have to say that if she was teaching my children I would not be very happy about this display of temper, but I would not be calling for her to lose her livelihood over it. Since she teaches at a primary school I would hope that parents would have the good sense to keep it away from the children, but no doubt some will not.


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## Flame_ (8 November 2021)

MotherOfChickens said:



			We’re not horses,they know we aren’t horses- what horses do to each other is never a reason for training methods or punishment.

as for the pony having already forgotten about it-that’s a fairly crappy attitude, even if that were the case, it’s still not right.
		
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I'm saying keep some sense of perspective. People are threatening this lady's livelihood and physical safety over a horse which is *absolutely fine.* Not right does not mean deserving of public lynching and life ruining consequences.

In response to someone else higher up... If this behavior were repeated regularly one wouldn't expect the horse to trot straight towards the group of humans and ask to be caught, to me this suggests it's out of character for the woman. It doesn't seem a head-shy, damaged horse to me.


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Indeed you are-and good luck in getting your money back for fees paid to a private school if you walk away immediately. However it is not the role of parents to police the way that staff spend their free time, which is subject only to the same laws as everybody else..
		
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Oh, I wouldn't have tried to get a private school to refund the fees, why did even you think would be a consideration? I've been through the private system, I know how works 🤷‍♀️.

Removing a child from a school because you have concerns about a teacher's character is safeguarding your child, not policing a teacher's free time.

I would not have my child anywhere near a teacher who will fly off the handle like that.

She is a director of a preschool, fgs. What example does that set to the tots?


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## Clodagh (8 November 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			The Times would not be naming the woman in the video without a very positive ID. She is indeed a teacher, but is not the other name widely touted on sab pages.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-kicking-and-slapping-horse-in-face-0ctt5wmnm

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The poor other woman who the sabs have named 😳.
Tbh poor both of them, tried and found guilty and then punished in the court of social media.


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## Otherwise (8 November 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			The Times would not be naming the woman in the video without a very positive ID. She is indeed a teacher, but is not the other name widely touted on sab pages.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-kicking-and-slapping-horse-in-face-0ctt5wmnm

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I absolutely do not condone animal abuse but the social media witch hunts are just as bad in my eyes, I can't imagine the amount of abuse those wrongly accused have probably already received. It is disgusting that the sab pages have thrown out names to begin with, even worse that they've named innocent people.


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## Nancykitt (8 November 2021)

I've seen that someone on SM has written that the 'wrongly accused' woman deserves hell anyway just because she hunts and is therefore a sadistic animal abuser. 
That's just ridiculous. These people have the worst sort of tunnel vision.


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## fetlock (8 November 2021)

Clodagh said:



			The poor other woman who the sabs have named 😳.
Tbh poor both of them, tried and found guilty and then punished in the court of social media.
		
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They named two, with the first to be named receiving phone calls yesterday afternoon.


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## Upthecreek (8 November 2021)

But we live in the age of almost everything being shared on social media. Everybody knows that. I’m afraid if you are stupid enough to be caught behaving like that on camera you are likely going to have to face some pretty unpleasant consequences which affect other areas of your life. I’m not saying that is right, but it is a fact that we all run the risk of almost anything we do in public being filmed and shared.


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## millikins (8 November 2021)

SO1 said:



			I think a lot of people in the horse community have just given up reporting things to officials because nothing happens.

This sort of behaviour happens at a show you report it to an official and I can almost guarantee nothing would happen or possibly at best an official saying "that is inappropriate please do not do that again" there would no banning them from competing or removal of qualification. People who been prosecuted are still allowed to complete they change their name, run their horse via family member of another professional but most of time people don't get any ban.

I reported a competitor who kicked his donkey in the belly at a county show. Donkey was tied to a lorry and had raised a hind leg to him but not actually kicked him, this was in an area with the public walking past. The secretary took the details and said they'd speak to him. I hung around and after 15 mins nothing had happened so I went back. Secretary kept fiddling with her papers and did her very best to ignore me until she was forced to make eye contact so I asked what had been done. Someone must have then spoken to him because the donkey and its companion were moved but I doubt he was subject to any penalty and the society really didn't want to take any action at all.
		
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## scats (8 November 2021)

I don’t remember quite as much lenience from people for that bloke who punched that police horse.


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## MotherOfChickens (8 November 2021)

Nowhere have I advocated a witch hunt nor condoned violence, I am only discussing what I can see. I don’t really have any strong thoughts as to what, if anything should happen to her. Just sad to see that this is thought of as just being one of those things that happens, that’s ok because the horse will forget (which I don’t believe) and poor lamb just lost control and that horses do worse things to each other which somehow justifies it. Sad but not surprised.


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## Miss_Millie (8 November 2021)

Flame_ said:



			I'm saying keep some sense of perspective. People are threatening this lady's livelihood and physical safety over a horse which is *absolutely fine.* Not right does not mean deserving of public lynching and life ruining consequences.

In response to someone else higher up... If this behavior were repeated regularly one wouldn't expect the horse to trot straight towards the group of humans and ask to be caught, to me this suggests it's out of character for the woman. It doesn't seem a head-shy, damaged horse to me.
		
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If she gets fired it will be because parents call up to say they don't want her teaching their children anymore. Social media may have caused the video to go viral, but this is only because to the majority of people, what she did WAS in fact shocking, violent and completely unnecessary. She only has herself to blame, and honestly if someone is happy to be physically abusive to an animal like that in public, I dread to think what they are like when no-one is looking.

Can you please stop saying that the horse was fine. You do NOT know that. If a woman is beaten at home but she's still conscious, is she fine too? When Is the horse no longer fine, when it is bleeding or has a black eye? I'm so shocked at the amount of people feeling sorry for her as if she is the victim in this scenario.


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## Pearlsasinger (8 November 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			But we live in the age of almost everything being shared on social media. Everybody knows that. I’m afraid if you are stupid enough to be caught behaving like that on camera you are likely going to have to face some pretty unpleasant consequences which affect other areas of your life. I’m not saying that is right, but it is a fact that we all run the risk of almost anything we do in public being filmed and shared.
		
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But what about the other woman who had nothing to do with it but was named?  How was she meant to avoid getting caught up in it?

I find the faith that the Times has got the name right quite touching tbh. I wouldn't hold my breath.


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## Pearlsasinger (8 November 2021)

Miss_Millie said:



			If she gets fired it will be because parents call up to say they don't want her teaching their children anymore.
		
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I'm afraid that Employment Law doesn't work like that!


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## Fellewell (8 November 2021)

Winters100 said:



			The problem is that this attitude is exactly what causes problems for hunting.  The hunt have not come forward to say that they have identified the person and banned them from hunting, they have not even said that they are investigating and will take appropriate action.  Perhaps the woman has been admonished by the hunt, or perhaps there is a lot of sympathy for her being riled up by the "bunch of sabs" referred to above.  Either way I would not be congratulating the hunt, and I certainly do not view the incident as simply a woman with some children trying to load ponies.  The poor pony did not 'canter into the road' as reported by some media, he was simply not asked correctly to load, the child dropped the lead rope, and he jogged over to the other horse and allowed himself to be caught.  Hardly a terrifying situation, and certainly not the fault of the pony. This was a disgraceful display of temper by an adult who should have known better.

Edited to add that it is a real shame that things are like this with hunting. A friend of mine hunts, and has many times offered to give me a horse and take me along when I visit the UK, but I would not want to be associated with this kind of activity. If there was an opportunity to do some genuine activity, trail hunt or similar, which did not involve surreptitiously chasing foxes / trampling people's gardens etc then I would love it, but as things are I would not want to be involved.
		
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Attitude? The Cottesmore are clearly hunting within the law and those who seek to disrupt are reduced to lurking about behind lorries filming unrelated matters.
So I congratulated the hunt for complying with the law in difficult circumstances. If they have information to release I'm sure this will be on a need to know basis only.


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## YorksG (8 November 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			But we live in the age of almost everything being shared on social media. Everybody knows that. I’m afraid if you are stupid enough to be caught behaving like that on camera you are likely going to have to face some pretty unpleasant consequences which affect other areas of your life. I’m not saying that is right, but it is a fact that we all run the risk of almost anything we do in public being filmed and shared.
		
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Do you think that applies to the woman who was wrongly named, or is she just collateral damage?


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## southerncomfort (8 November 2021)

Flame_ said:



			My horses bite each other's heads for a laugh harder than she hit that horse. And yes they throw their heads up with their eyes shut for a second like its the end of the world, then they mess about again and go and eat. What she did was bad horsemanship but it's being blown way out of proportion.
		
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Bad horsemanship??

It was violence inflicted on an animal that was doing nothing wrong.

Genuinely shocked at some of the posts on this thread.

I'm out.


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## Xmas lucky (8 November 2021)

Wow some the replies are appealing at the end of the day this woman is a adult and should be able control her  anger. She should face some conquests for her actions and she  should loss her job because if she loses her temper on horse then I hate see what would she do to a child. This behavior shouldn’t be normalise like people are trying to do on this fourm.


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## HanniRT (8 November 2021)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			Anybody doing that to any horses at my yard would be given immediate notice; THEN I'd kick the cr@p out of them and hammer their head with fisticuffs to see how they liked it.
		
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Why on earth would you assault someone? Unless you aren't serious and are typing in anger. That's completely understandable, it's awful seeing the treatment in that video. 

I hope that's the case, because there's something incredibly worrying if you think repeatedly kicking someone and then beating their head to be acceptable behaviour.


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## Upthecreek (8 November 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			But what about the other woman who had nothing to do with it but was named?  How was she meant to avoid getting caught up in it?

I find the faith that the Times has got the name right quite touching tbh. I wouldn't hold my breath.
		
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I’m not sure what your point is? I was referring specifically to the woman that hit the horse and other people that do bad/stupid things in public when there is a possibility anything could be being filmed and shared. It’s horrendous that another woman has been wrongly identified as the culprit and of course she did nothing wrong and could do nothing to avoid the situation she has found herself in. I feel very sorry for her.


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## Upthecreek (8 November 2021)

YorksG said:



			Do you think that applies to the woman who was wrongly named, or is she just collateral damage?
		
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Do I think what applies to the woman who was wrongly named? She didn’t do anything wrong. I was specifically talking about the culprit and other people who do bad things in public which could be filmed and shared on social media.


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## ester (8 November 2021)

Ah that was the only person I found named earlier


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2021)

It would, quite rightly, be a very expensive mistake indeed for The Times if they have published the wrong name.

They will have run that closely by their legal team before publishing.


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## Clodagh (8 November 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			But we live in the age of almost everything being shared on social media. Everybody knows that. I’m afraid if you are stupid enough to be caught behaving like that on camera you are likely going to have to face some pretty unpleasant consequences which affect other areas of your life. I’m not saying that is right, but it is a fact that we all run the risk of almost anything we do in public being filmed and shared.
		
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But the first named woman hadn’t done anything, why is that ok?


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## SO1 (8 November 2021)

I don't think hunts need be to congratulated for not breaking the law. It is not like they have done something special by sticking to the rules. It should not be any harder to stick to the rules if they are being monitored than if they are not. It only becomes difficult to stick to the rules if you were planning to hunt illegally and then you get unexpectedly monitored. 

How hard is it really for them to stay within the law and not chase and kill animals and not trespass on to private land without permission?. 



Fellewell said:



			Attitude? The Cottesmore are clearly hunting within the law and those who seek to disrupt are reduced to lurking about behind lorries filming unrelated matters.
So I congratulated the hunt for complying with the law in difficult circumstances. If they have information to release I'm sure this will be on a need to know basis only.
		
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## PurBee (8 November 2021)

In the video the horse and children are classed as ‘dependents’ - dependent on the adults in the environment to provide care for them.

For a child to witness violence to another human or animal by an adult they depend upon for care, is traumatising, therefore abusive.
Children are removed by child protective services from their primary care-givers for continually witnessing 3rd party violence, and certainly if directly subject to violence. The videographer whoever it may be, in this instance is not harming the child, but protecting it by showing it is also subject to these displays of anger and violence by the adult. The adult displays dis-regard for the emotional and physical safety and care of ALL the dependents in the scene.

Violence is generally categorised as choosing to willingly intentionally cause harm to another being via physical actions.

For an animal to be subject to violence by a human handler is also abuse.

(Yes horses play rough as a herd but they are free to turn their head away, or run away, not head-collared and roped to their aggressor, unable to deflect or run away)

I pity the woman as generally those in pain cause others pain. If this is her go-to response to deal with a relatively calm situation with a horse, it’s indicative she needs to stop and assess her actions and who she has become.

Social media is a furious hive of opinion, and has its downsides, yet it might just take this level of exposure for some people to stop treating others or animals badly. If its never seen by anybody, no-one ever changes their bad behaviour. She may think this behaviour is ok, might even have learnt it from others as ok, and needs this to open her eyes to see herself on video. I expect she’s taking stock of her actions very seriously now it’s viral.

I cant wish a person like this the loss of her job, or anything as she’s now got the loss of reputation in many social circles to deal with and for many, that’s the worst thing and a severe punishment in itself, affecting her whole life. She will also have the relevant authorities to deal with. 
Witch hunt is not necessary as she will suffer enough due to impact of the video, is what im trying to say.


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## Upthecreek (8 November 2021)

Clodagh said:



			But the first named woman hadn’t done anything, why is that ok?
		
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I haven’t said that is okay. I’m genuinely confused. Of course it is not okay for the wrong person to be named on social media for doing something they haven’t done and I have not said it is. I say again, for the third time, I was referring to people who do bad/stupid things, not innocent people who have done nothing wrong and are victims of mistaken identity.


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## Clodagh (8 November 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			I haven’t said that is okay. I’m genuinely confused. Of course it is not okay for the wrong person to be named on social media for doing something they haven’t done and I have not said it is. I say again, for the third time, I was referring to people who do bad/stupid things, not innocent people who have done nothing wrong and are victims of mistaken identity.
		
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Sorry I misunderstood you then, I thought you said naming on SM was just what happened to them both and devil take the hindmost ( or sentiments to that effect).


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## Cinnamontoast (8 November 2021)

I just can’t wrap my head round this. Surely she knew she was being filmed? Also, how counter-intuitive, the horse politely stands so gets kicked and smacked round the face. Just thick, frankly.

I think mine would have gone up if I’d tried that with him.


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## Rowreach (8 November 2021)

I've just caught up with this whole thread.  Wow.

1. *I do not condone for one second what this woman did.*

2. I've been on this forum for many many years, and I have seen countless threads from people (yeah, quite a few of you here on this one) where the mistreatment of horses has been blatant, either in the form of the written word or in videos and photos.

You think not?  I've seen people riding in ill-fitting saddles and bridles, people who are too heavy for their horses (not fat-shaming, just stating a fact), people riding horses that are lame or otherwise showing distinct discomfort.  There was even one poster who *for more than two years* posted endless threads about her struggles with her (unsound) horse, while loads of people on here were all "there there just work him through it" and the couple of people like me who told her to get a proper vet work up on it were told not to post on her threads any more because she was getting upset .

All of these things are long term "abuses", things that horses are putting up with every day of the week, nobody makes a song and dance about them because (a) they're not related to hunting and (b) no sabs have bothered lifting the videos from here and plastering them all over Facebook with the endorsement of some gobby celebrity.  

I bet not a single one of us has never done something that our horses would rather we hadn't. This ripping apart by social media is disgusting and disgraceful and there were plenty of you agreeing with that when Caroline Flack killed herself.  Short memories.


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## Malibu_Stacy (8 November 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I'm afraid that Employment Law doesn't work like that!
		
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no, but a school could certainly argue that her actions have bought the school into disrepute and are not adhering to ‘British Values‘ (which are explicitly mentioned in section 8 of the Teaching Standards, and I think we can agree that not beating animals is a widely held ‘British Value’) both of which are generally requirements written into a teaching contract.  As such she could be dismissed - I think there was a case a year or so ago of a TA whose dismissal was upheld by the courts after she posted anti-gay marriage or something similar posts on her own social media, which the school then received complaints about.


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## Cinnamontoast (8 November 2021)

Lucky101 said:



			Wow some the replies are appealing at the end of the day this woman is a adult and should be able control her  anger. She should face some conquests for her actions and she  should loss her job because if she loses her temper on horse then I hate see what would she do to a child. This behavior shouldn’t be normalise like people are trying to do on this fourm.
		
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The two are poles apart. I posit that never in a thousand years would she even dream of treating a child like that. Such arguments are frankly ridiculous.


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## spotty_pony (8 November 2021)

So I haven’t managed to find out who she is yet but what I do know is that she is a primary school teacher!! 😧


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## Upthecreek (8 November 2021)

Clodagh said:



			Sorry I misunderstood you then, I thought you said naming on SM was just what happened to them both and devil take the hindmost ( or sentiments to that effect).
		
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It must be absolutely horrendous to be wrongly accused of something like that and have it plastered all over social media and she has my utmost sympathy. The culprit doesn’t have my sympathy because she is a grown woman who must take responsibility for her actions. Her treatment of the horse was absolutely vile and completely unnecessary. But do I think her whole life should be ruined and her family should have to suffer abuse? No. I’m sure there will be death threats and all manner of deeply unpleasant comments until the media storm subsides.


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## Amymay (8 November 2021)

Fellewell said:



			Attitude? The Cottesmore are clearly hunting within the law and those who seek to disrupt are reduced to lurking about behind lorries filming unrelated matters.
So I congratulated the hunt for complying with the law in difficult circumstances. If they have information to release I'm sure this will be on a need to know basis only.
		
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I believe that the Cottesmore are so heavily monitored because of very strong concerns that they _don’t _hunt within the law.


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2021)

Rowreach said:



			All of these things are long term "abuses", things that horses are putting up with every day of the week, nobody makes a song and dance about them because (a) they're not related to hunting and (b) no sabs have bothered lifting the videos from here and plastering them all over Facebook with the endorsement of some gobby celebrity.
		
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Don't disagree, particularly about the link to hunting, which is crucial.

The video and subsequent sharing by 'names' is an anti's wet dream. The harm to hunting's already trashed image is enormous.

No one would disagree either that horses have to put with all sorts of less than great management and care, but that is where whataboutery comes in. This video of the woman whacking the horse is what this thread is about, there are plenty of other threads where the whatabouteries can be and are discussed.


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## Xmas lucky (8 November 2021)

Cinnamontoast said:



			The two are poles apart. I posit that never in a thousand years would she even dream of treating a child like that. Such arguments are frankly ridiculous.
		
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Someone with a bad temper and if they got mad enough  they  would lash out . What I saw in this video was concerning behavior for that woman to lash out on a horse that easy would do that to a human just as quick. Sorry but some like that shouldn’t be around children. At the end of the day she done that in a very public place. If this was a man it’s would get a very different response .


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## Cinnamontoast (8 November 2021)

Lucky101 said:



			Someone with a bad temper and if they got mad enough  they  would lash out . What I saw in this video was concerning behavior for that woman to lash out on a horse that easy would do that to a human just as quick. Sorry but some like that shouldn’t be around children. At the end of the day she done that in a very public place. If this was a man it’s would get a very different response .
		
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There is no correlation between the two. You‘re making an unproven assumption and should be careful not to write something libellous. She could easily be a member on here.


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## Sossigpoker (8 November 2021)

Imagine having your kids taught by a someone who cant control their anger and abuses an animal.
Sarah Moulds, shame on you.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-kicking-and-slapping-horse-in-face-0ctt5wmnm


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## Sossigpoker (8 November 2021)

Cinnamontoast said:



			There is no correlation between the two. You‘re making an unproven assumption and should be careful not to write something libellous. She could easily be a member on here.
		
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So what if she's a member?
Actually I hope she sees what's being said about her. I hope she will get prosecuted.  About time someone was made an example of - we have laws against animal abuse yet they very rarely are enforced.


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## millikins (8 November 2021)

spotty_pony said:



			So I haven’t managed to find out who she is yet but what I do know is that she is a primary school teacher!! 😧
		
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Well please don't post it here when you do, I for one have absolutely no desire to know.


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## Sossigpoker (8 November 2021)

It's in most newspapers and all over Facebook. Would be harder to not find out !
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-kicking-and-slapping-horse-in-face-0ctt5wmnm


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## Goldenstar (8 November 2021)

Rowreach said:



			I've just caught up with this whole thread.  Wow.

1. *I do not condone for one second what this woman did.*

2. I've been on this forum for many many years, and I have seen countless threads from people (yeah, quite a few of you here on this one) where the mistreatment of horses has been blatant, either in the form of the written word or in videos and photos.

You think not?  I've seen people riding in ill-fitting saddles and bridles, people who are too heavy for their horses (not fat-shaming, just stating a fact), people riding horses that are lame or otherwise showing distinct discomfort.  There was even one poster who *for more than two years* posted endless threads about her struggles with her (unsound) horse, while loads of people on here were all "there there just work him through it" and the couple of people like me who told her to get a proper vet work up on it were told not to post on her threads any more because she was getting upset .

All of these things are long term "abuses", things that horses are putting up with every day of the week, nobody makes a song and dance about them because (a) they're not related to hunting and (b) no sabs have bothered lifting the videos from here and plastering them all over Facebook with the endorsement of some gobby celebrity.  

I bet not a single one of us has never done something that our horses would rather we hadn't. This ripping apart by social media is disgusting and disgraceful and there were plenty of you agreeing with that when Caroline Flack killed herself.  Short memories.
		
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Great post .


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## Sossigpoker (8 November 2021)

spotty_pony said:



			So I haven’t managed to find out who she is yet but what I do know is that she is a primary school teacher!! 😧
		
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-kicking-and-slapping-horse-in-face-0ctt5wmnm


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## Sossigpoker (8 November 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			Great post .
		
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Guess what ? I may have ridden badly or given incorrect aids or not positioned the numnah correctly etc but I've certainly not lost my shit abd beaten an animal.
There's a big difference between doing "something the horse would rather I didn't do " and beating a horse.
Anyone defending this disgraceful woman is equally low in my view.


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## TPO (8 November 2021)

Sossigpoker said:



			Guess what ? I may have ridden badly or given incorrect aids or not positioned the numnah correctly etc but I've certainly not lost my shit abd beaten an animal.
There's a big difference between doing "something the horse would rather I didn't do " and beating a horse.
Anyone defending this disgraceful woman is equally low in my view.
		
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You might not have but others harshly attacking the woman on this thread have, or at least posted that they have. One poster provided a detailed description of them attacking their pony before.

It doesn't have to be one or the other, or what's worse. What was filmed was completely uncalled for and never acceptable.

Yes this womans actions were disgusting and should never have happened. I also can't comprehend the stupidity given she knew that she was being filmed.

I don't think destroying someone's life is the correct course of action. What happens to the children and horses if she loses her job or worse?

It's being dealt with I don't see what is added by stalking and harassing the woman.


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## SO1 (8 November 2021)

I do in part agree with you and the element of They are very few people who have not told their horses off. 

However the clip looks very violent and that is what makes it look so awful to the general public. A poorly fitting saddle or people riding unsound horses or using a schooling whip just does not look quite so bad.

The horse that got punched at the pentathlon was awful as well. 

The media circus around this I think will make the small minority of people who are violent towards horses in public places think twice about their actions and be more careful. It won't stop those sort of people from beating their horses at home but I think people will be scared of being filmed in public hitting a horse in case it gets on to social media. 

Nobody knows if this was a one off situation caused by some sort of mental breakdown or if she does this all the time to her horses. 

Nobody wants anyone to commit suicide or to receive death threats. This situation should be a learning situation to prevent others thinking this sort of violent behaviour is acceptable and perhaps considering their training methods. The horse is not going to understand why it is being told off. 

I have never seen this level of violent behaviour towards a horse on a livery yard, I have only seen it occasionally in competition environments in the lorry park. However all the yards I have been on have been what some people might call "fluffy" - middle aged ladies with school master older horses who are primarily pets and not a lot of competition riding or high stress handing situations which tend to bring out the worst in people. 



Rowreach said:



			I've just caught up with this whole thread.  Wow.

1. *I do not condone for one second what this woman did.*

2. I've been on this forum for many many years, and I have seen countless threads from people (yeah, quite a few of you here on this one) where the mistreatment of horses has been blatant, either in the form of the written word or in videos and photos.

You think not?  I've seen people riding in ill-fitting saddles and bridles, people who are too heavy for their horses (not fat-shaming, just stating a fact), people riding horses that are lame or otherwise showing distinct discomfort.  There was even one poster who *for more than two years* posted endless threads about her struggles with her (unsound) horse, while loads of people on here were all "there there just work him through it" and the couple of people like me who told her to get a proper vet work up on it were told not to post on her threads any more because she was getting upset .

All of these things are long term "abuses", things that horses are putting up with every day of the week, nobody makes a song and dance about them because (a) they're not related to hunting and (b) no sabs have bothered lifting the videos from here and plastering them all over Facebook with the endorsement of some gobby celebrity.  

I bet not a single one of us has never done something that our horses would rather we hadn't. This ripping apart by social media is disgusting and disgraceful and there were plenty of you agreeing with that when Caroline Flack killed herself.  Short memories.
		
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## Cinnamontoast (8 November 2021)

Sossigpoker said:



			So what if she's a member?
Actually I hope she sees what's being said about her. I hope she will get prosecuted.  About time someone was made an example of - we have laws against animal abuse yet they very rarely are enforced.
		
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For a ‘minor’ albeit distressing incident such as this, it is highly unlikely she will be prosecuted


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## Pearlsasinger (8 November 2021)

Sossigpoker said:



			Guess what ? I may have ridden badly or given incorrect aids or not positioned the numnah correctly etc but I've certainly not lost my shit abd beaten an animal.
There's a big difference between doing "something the horse would rather I didn't do " and beating a horse.
Anyone defending this disgraceful woman is equally low in my view.
		
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Nobody that I have seen has defended the woman's actions but a lot of people have said that CP's decision to ensure that the video was seen online by thousands of people and to encourage a witch hunt which 'named and shamed' the wrong woman was also indefensible.  That is not the way to go about things - and if we are talking about 'British Values', one of them is to follow due process in order to ensure fairness.


ETA "Nobody wants anyone to commit suicide or to receive death threats".  No?   So why post the video on line instead of handing it to RSPCA for their consideration?


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## Sossigpoker (8 November 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Nobody that I have seen has defended the woman's actions but a lot of people have said that CP's decision to ensure that the video was seen online by thousands of people and to encourage a witch hunt which 'named and shamed' the wrong woman was also indefensible.  That is not the way to go about things - and if we are talking about 'British Values', one of them is to follow due process in order to ensure fairness.
		
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Are you saying that Sarah Moulds isn't the woman in the video ?


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## bonny (8 November 2021)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Nobody that I have seen has defended the woman's actions but a lot of people have said that CP's decision to ensure that the video was seen online by thousands of people and to encourage a witch hunt which 'named and shamed' the wrong woman was also indefensible.  That is not the way to go about things - and if we are talking about 'British Values', one of them is to follow due process in order to ensure fairness.
		
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Trial by social media is a thousand times worse than trial in a court.


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## Sossigpoker (8 November 2021)

Im really struggling to find any sympathy for this woman.


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## Pearlsasinger (8 November 2021)

Sossigpoker said:



			Are you saying that Sarah Moulds isn't the woman in the video ?
		
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I have no idea who the woman in the video is but I do know that 2 different women have been named.


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## Winters100 (8 November 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			Great post .
		
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I get what you are saying that there are other ways to ill treat horses, but I do not believe that the vast majority here base their opinions regarding the incident upon the fact that it was related to hunting. Mine would certainly be unchanged whether this happened at a dressage / showjumping or any other event.  I would not wish to be involved with hunting at present, but I hunted as a child, and I would certainly not have any ill feeling towards those who do participate.  To me the debate about whether the people present should have been filming, or whether the video should have been shared, is secondary to the point that this sort of thing is not acceptable.

ETA sorry I meant to write this as a reply to Rowreach, but I suppose you guessed this


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## ycbm (8 November 2021)

Winters100 said:



			I get what you are saying that there are other ways to ill treat horses, but I do not believe that the vast majority here base their opinions regarding the incident upon the fact that it was related to hunting. Mine would certainly be unchanged whether this happened at a dressage / showjumping or any other event.  I would not wish to be involved with hunting at present, but I hunted as a child, and I would certainly not have any ill feeling towards those who do participate.  To me the debate about whether the people present should have been filming, or whether the video should have been shared, is secondary to the point that this sort of thing is not acceptable.
		
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I agree W, but without the Packham connection this wouldn't have had any of the mainstream media attention and without the hunting connection it wouldn't have had Packham's attention. 

It's now a very nasty situation, I don't like it at all never mind what she's done. 
.


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## shortstuff99 (8 November 2021)

From what I've seen online, people are taking this as confirmation that all hunting people are animal abusing psychopaths. I'm not sure how hunting are going to be able to deal with this.


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## Nancykitt (8 November 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			From what I've seen online, people are taking this as confirmation that all hunting people are animal abusing psychopaths. I'm not sure how hunting are going to be able to deal with this.
		
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That's exactly what I was thinking.
I can't see a way forward. The sabs are vile, their supporters are the most vitriolic people I've ever seen, the illegal hunters make me angry and people who abuse their horses just disgust me. What a mess.


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## shortstuff99 (8 November 2021)

Nancykitt said:



			That's exactly what I was thinking.
I can't see a way forward. The sabs are vile, their supporters are the most vitriolic people I've ever seen, the illegal hunters make me angry and people who abuse their horses just disgust me. What a mess.
		
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I just don't get how anything can be sorted now. I get why people don't like hunting, I also don't agree with legal (emphasis on legal) activities being disrupted because they don't like it.


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## SO1 (8 November 2021)

They will need the services of a very good public relations agency that specialises in crisis management to get them out of this mess. There are agencies that will advise on what to do, what to say and how to tidy up PR disasters. There are things that hunting folk can do to make themselves come across as more friendly, warm, caring and approachable. 

This will be the 3rd high profile  negative issue in the press related to hunting in the recent months.

The National Trust has definitely done the right thing in distancing themselves from hunting. 



shortstuff99 said:



			From what I've seen online, people are taking this as confirmation that all hunting people are animal abusing psychopaths. I'm not sure how hunting are going to be able to deal with this.
		
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## J.Tiernan (8 November 2021)

interested to know, when was the last time the hunting office spoke out about not tolerating animal cruelty?


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## spotty_pony (9 November 2021)

Sossigpoker said:



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-kicking-and-slapping-horse-in-face-0ctt5wmnm

Click to expand...

Oh god I know who she is!! 😡 sadly that sort of behaviour seems to run in the family!!


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## Rumbaba (9 November 2021)

Oh dear God she’s a teacher, the parents will have an absolute field day…………….her behaviour is absolutely outrageous and totally inexcusable but I think the consequences for her, well this is going to torpedo life as she knows it what an absolute mess.


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## Sossigpoker (9 November 2021)

Rumbaba said:



			Oh dear God she’s a teacher, the parents will have an absolute field day…………….her behaviour is absolutely outrageous and totally inexcusable but I think the consequences for her, well this is going to torpedo life as she knows it what an absolute mess.
		
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A mess she created and deserves by abusing an animal.


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## Sandstone1 (9 November 2021)

I have said this for sometime now.  with technology theses days such as phones and drones etc if people are hunting within the law their behaviour needs to be perfect.  If not they will get caught out.   As this case shows.   Its no good blaming sabs for filming it.  It happened.  Sabs didnt hit and kick the pony.   The woman did.   With social media these days people just can not get away with it. Nor should they.  It may not have been dealt in the right way but it will bring about change.   Its a big nail in the coffin of hunting.


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## Petalpoos (9 November 2021)

Just saw the bit on it in the Times. I don’t think she will be keeping her job as a schoolteacher much longer.


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## Ceriann (9 November 2021)

It’s made DM online headline now.


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## ycbm (9 November 2021)

Sossigpoker said:



			A mess she created and deserves by abusing an animal.
		
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I'm sorry,  I can't agree with you there.  She did not deserve what is happening to her now.  What she did was a very minor piece of animal abuse,  which was inexcusable,   but if it had gone to the normal way of prosecutions it would probably not have been deemed worth of taking to court and the Police would simply have cautioned her. 

Her life and that of her family are being ripped to shreds today.  This is not right.


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## cauda equina (9 November 2021)

Ceriann said:



			It’s made DM online headline now.
		
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And how handy to be able to repeat the Mark Hankinson story, in case anyone missed it first time round


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## Tiddlypom (9 November 2021)

Ceriann said:



			It’s made DM online headline now.
		
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It's the lead item on their UK news page .

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ing-horse-married-primary-school-teacher.html

No public relations agency could possibly rescue hunting's public image after this, the Hankinson verdict and the National Trust vote all occurring in such short succession.



ycbm said:



			Slam dunk massive Sab PR coup handed to them on a plate.
		
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Absolutely this.


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## ycbm (9 November 2021)

cauda equina said:



			And how handy to be able to repeat the Mark Hankinson story, in case anyone missed it first time round
		
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Making the full join up between what she did and illegal hunting,  whether the Cottesmore were hunting legally that day or not.

Slam dunk massive Sab PR coup  handed to them on a plate.

What an unholy mess trail hunting has created by not distancing themselves from illegal hunting years ago when they knew it was going on.

I think legal hunts now need a new governing body, a big PR campaign,   to stop using fox scent, and to organise the obvious,  independent monitoring if their own activities of they have a hope of carrying on.

Every Mail reader whose verge is run over by a hunter's wagon is going to kick up a stink this winter.


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## Sossigpoker (9 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			I'm sorry,  I can't agree with you there.  She did not deserve what is happening to her now.  What she did was a very minor piece of animal abuse,  which was inexcusable,   but if it had gone to the normal way of prosecutions it would probably not have been deemed worth of taking to court and the Police would simply have cautioned her.

Her life and that of her family are being ripped to shreds today.  This is not right.
		
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Minor piece of animal abuse ?
Oh I'm glad it was just minor ! Imagine the major pieces of animal abuse then ! Silly old me thinking violence is violence.


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## Tiddlypom (9 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			I think legal hunts now need a new governing body, a big PR campaign, to stop using fox scent, and to organise the obvious, independent monitoring if their own activities of they have a hope of carrying on.
		
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They've long needed this, but have consistently failed to act on it.

If this latest furore doesn't boot them out of their apathy, nothing will.


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## meleeka (9 November 2021)

To be fair, I think hunting’s reputation amongst the general public was about as low as it could go anyway.


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## Gallop_Away (9 November 2021)

Firstly let me just say, what I think this woman did was completely wrong and I think she should now be banned from taking part in future hunt events and should at the very least receive a caution from police. 
The pony absolutely did not deserve this treatment and she should be completely ashamed of herself. 
Also she has brought hunting into the firing line yet again, and certainly isn't doing us any favours!! 

Buuuuuut.....  

I also do not condone the trial by social media. This has now caused her, and a completely innocent woman, having their names plastered all over the Internet, her daughters face was also visible in one post I seen on fb yesterday, although I think has since been covered, her employer has been named and the womans life has been ruined. 

This is why I despise sabs and their idea of vigilante justice, and their pet CP. What she did was vile but ruining the woman and that of her family's life is also vile. 
Need I remind everyone of Caroline Flack. People make mistakes, something horrible shameful mistakes. What ever happened to "be kind" I wonder?


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## DrSeuss (9 November 2021)

Not so long ago there were posts on here decrying the way an Olympic coach punched her horse in the modern pentathlon. I just went back to check if anyone here had suggested it was "very minor animal abuse" that wouldn't even be worth investigating had there been no cameras to see, expressed concern that the coach was being pushed to the point of suicidality by the press, or suggested that it was all the fault of people who object to equestrian sports for engineering the situation. There don't appear to be any posts like that. Not one.

Perhaps people will try to tell me that punching the flank of an Olympic horse is worse than hitting your horse about the head when he doesn't load or using the hard end of the whip on him, but I doubt for a second that anyone here would believe that. It's more that some people are very invested in hunting's image, in a way they're not invested in the modern pentathlon, and this is why the discussion keeps moving onto the need for "better PR" as though that's the real serious issue here.


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## Clodagh (9 November 2021)

I think those of you who are saying hunting has had it now overestimate the memory length and outrage quota of 99% of the British public and underestimate the tenacity of people who take part in a sport which has had many brickbats thrown at it over the years (many deservedly).
It will be forgotten in a week or two.


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## nutjob (9 November 2021)

Sossigpoker said:



			Minor piece of animal abuse ?
Oh I'm glad it was just minor ! Imagine the major pieces of animal abuse then ! Silly old me thinking violence is violence.
		
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You are very lucky if you haven't seen any of the stuff about Harry Evans which is in a completely different league to this and is still very much ongoing.  I wish I could be sure he could never come near any animal again as I am haunted by the images.  It didn't make any mainstream media and he is still buying and selling horses.  I don't support this woman but there are VERY much worse things going on.


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## shortstuff99 (9 November 2021)

Gallop_Away said:



			Firstly let me just say, what I think this woman did was completely wrong and I think she should now be banned from taking part in future hunt events and should at the very least receive a caution from police.
The pony absolutely did not deserve this treatment and she should be completely ashamed of herself.
Also she has brought hunting into the firing line yet again, and certainly isn't doing us any favours!!

Buuuuuut..... 

I also do not condone the trial by social media. This has now caused her, and a completely innocent woman, having their names plastered all over the Internet, her daughters face was also visible in one post I seen on fb yesterday, although I think has since been covered, her employer has been named and the womans life has been ruined.

This is why I despise sabs and their idea of vigilante justice, and their pet CP. What she did was vile but ruining the woman and that of her family's life is also vile.
Need I remind everyone of Caroline Flack. People make mistakes, something horrible shameful mistakes. What ever happened to "be kind" I wonder?
		
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Have you seen what sabs and frankly even a lot of normal people say about hunters? They could not care less if something terrible was to happen to her. In their mind they deserve it as karma for hunting (and being 'posh').

I'm not a fun of fox hunting and I don't think it is nice to foxes, but I do drag hunting and I don't think people deserve this sort of hate.


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## Judgemental (9 November 2021)

What else can one expect when the Chief Executive of The Master's of Foxhounds, Mark Hankinson has been convicted of aiding and abetting illegal hunting. Entirely the wrong class of person now supports hunting, whether it be trail or illegal. This lady from Melton Mowbray needs to have her horses seized. Clearly, she is 'frustrated' one way or another.


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## palo1 (9 November 2021)

ihatework said:



			The nuisance is in the publishing of the photo and the intent behind it.

The abuse incident aside, if I was the mother of that child I would be doing my utmost to have my child’s image removed and would be using every legal route possible to do so
		
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I know the conversation has moved on but I was, as others, very upset about the impact on the child in the video.  Even more so when I remembered this prosecution earlier this year:-

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....-hoard-of-child-rape-and-murder-films-3205103 

Neil Hansen, who was also jailed in the 1990's for explosives offences, led the National Anti-Hunt campaign as well as being a member of the Animal Liberation Front.  

His sentence this year was to be placed under an Offenders Supervision Order for 3 years and to be placed on the Sex Offenders register.

Now I know that as a pro-legal hunting person I will be accused of digging the dirt on sabs/antis in order to deflect from this incident but I do think this is relevant.  This man was accepted by the anti-hunt community for a long time and has only recently been convicted of this crime.  I am certain that this would be a rare crime in any circles but surely, after this conviction most sab groups would have done their due diligence and made sure that this would not be an issue raised by anyone - like me, for example.

Neil Hansen was not ripped to shreds by a social media frenzy.  I wonder how sab groups managed and distanced themselves from this individual; hunting could possibly learn from that...


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## ecb89 (9 November 2021)

The email address of her school is being given out several times on a different forum, asking people to email in and express their disgust


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## cauda equina (9 November 2021)

Clodagh said:



			I think those of you who are saying hunting has had it now overestimate the memory length and outrage quota of 99% of the British public and underestimate the tenacity of people who take part in a sport which has had many brickbats thrown at it over the years (many deservedly).
*It will be forgotten in a week or two.*

Click to expand...

I don't think it will
Hankinson+NT+this and chuck in some non-specific Tory hating (a fair number of comments on CP's Twitter said 'And I bet she votes tory!' or wtte) and I think this is a critical mass, even if hunting people can manage to stop doing stupid things


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## Miss_Millie (9 November 2021)

DrSeuss said:



			Not so long ago there were posts on here decrying the way an Olympic coach punched her horse in the modern pentathlon. I just went back to check if anyone here had suggested it was "very minor animal abuse" that wouldn't even be worth investigating had there been no cameras to see, expressed concern that the coach was being pushed to the point of suicidality by the press, or suggested that it was all the fault of people who object to equestrian sports for engineering the situation. There don't appear to be any posts like that. Not one.

Perhaps people will try to tell me that punching the flank of an Olympic horse is worse than hitting your horse about the head when he doesn't load or using the hard end of the whip on him, but I doubt for a second that anyone here would believe that. It's more that some people are very invested in hunting's image, in a way they're not invested in the modern pentathlon, and this is why the discussion keeps moving onto the need for "better PR" as though that's the real serious issue here.
		
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I think you make a very good point there. The way that the woman punched the horse in the face was imo much more aggressive and forceful than the trainer hitting Saint Boy on the flank. Both incidents are awful but in this case, she was holding the horse tightly so she could kick and hit him and he couldn't get away. I can't fathom how anyone could think that is acceptable behaviour.

I do know what others are saying about the social media storm getting out of hand, though. If she gets dismissed from her job it will be because this went viral and it's going to reflect badly on the school if they keep her on. Also because I imagine, many parents will complain and say that they don't want an animal abuser teaching their children.

Someone upthread mentioned that no-one had sympathy for the man who punched the police horse in the face, everyone was enraged over that incident and were not worrying over whether his mental health would be affected by it going viral. I can't help but wonder if some people are being a bit soft/biased because she is a middle class white woman. And I say that as a middle class white woman myself. If she was a Romanian traveller, would people still be feeling sorry for her?

But to clarify, I too am concerned for the young girl involved and do not think that this woman deserves to be threatened or to feel unsafe, which I'm sure she does at this time. That is not right at all. It's a double edged sword because if this wasn't filmed and it didn't go viral, she would most likely continue to go about beating her horses. It does send out a clear message that animal abuse is not tolerated in this country, and if people do just as bad at shows as many say, maybe this will make them think twice. That being said, the level of hype this has received may have put the woman's safety in danger, and that is not on, even though what she did was very bad.


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## cauda equina (9 November 2021)

I don't think anyone here has said that what she did was acceptable

Once the incident had been filmed, it didn't need to go viral
It could have been passed on to the police and RSPCA to be dealt with according to the law 
The sm pile on is completely unnecessary


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## Backtoblack (9 November 2021)

the incident with photos is headlining the Daily Mail online at the moment. I hope they throw the book at her.Poorpoor pony.


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## ester (9 November 2021)

Re. would it have got to court had it not gone viral I think the most recent other example would have been the welsh girls whipping the pony which also went viral, they got pretty heavy sanctions  (suspended sentences, banned from keeping animals for 8 years and 120 h unpaid work. )

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/teenage-girl-who-shown-whipping-12688214


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## Sossigpoker (9 November 2021)

nutjob said:



			You are very lucky if you haven't seen any of the stuff about Harry Evans which is in a completely different league to this and is still very much ongoing.  I wish I could be sure he could never come near any animal again as I am haunted by the images.  It didn't make any mainstream media and he is still buying and selling horses.  I don't support this woman but there are VERY much worse things going on.
		
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Just because Harry Evans hasn't made the mainstream media doesn't mean other acts of abuse don't get exposed.
The media will pick up items that will sell papers- I'm sure if Harry Evans was filmed doing what he does out hunting , at a village fayre , outside Buckingham Palace or anywhere else that's likely to raise the public interest,  he would be exposed. Which he very much deserved.
There's no major or minor violence,  there's just violence all perpetrators deserve what's coming to them.


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## Sossigpoker (9 November 2021)

ecb89 said:



			The email address of her school is being given out several times on a different forum, asking people to email in and express their disgust
		
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More than happy to do that !


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## cauda equina (9 November 2021)

'all perpetrators deserve what's coming to them'
Doesn't that depend on what it is that's coming?
Should the punishment not fit the crime?


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## Rowreach (9 November 2021)

Sossigpoker said:



			More than happy to do that !
		
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Why? What on earth has it got to do with you?

If you committed some misdemeanor, entirely unrelated to your employment, would you think it reasonable for SM/the national media to publish personal details about you and encourage the general public to lobby your employer and get you sacked?


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## stormox (9 November 2021)

OK - It was unnecessary pointless and served no useful purpose. But it was filmed - and that's the problem here. we can all be paparazzi judge and hangman on social media. Does it mean she is a cruel person who regularly beats horses? We don't know.
How many of us ride with whips? Spurs? Are we cruel?
There is real cruelty in the horse world. Why don't people film yearlings being whipped while  pulling huge men on sulkies? Show jumping dealers rapping horses at sales?
The reason is snobbery -  anti- hunt (legal or not) discrimination.


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## TPO (9 November 2021)

stormox said:



			OK - It was unnecessary pointless and served no useful purpose. But it was filmed - and that's the problem here. we can all be paparazzi judge and hangman on social media. Does it mean she is a cruel person who regularly beats horses? We don't know.
How many of us ride with whips? Spurs? Are we cruel?
There is real cruelty in the horse world. Why don't people film yearlings being whipped while  pulling huge men on sulkies? Show jumping dealers rapping horses at sales?
The reason is snobbery -  anti- hunt (legal or not) discrimination.
		
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I was in agreement until you said snobbery. That just belittles everything else you've written.

The reason is she was filmed beating up a horse with no cause at all. The film was then shared. It has nothing to do with her presumed "class" and everything to do with her behaviour.

Heck even the tory loving DM readers have managed to tear her to shreds without mentioning social class at all. Where's their snobbery?


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## Shilasdair (9 November 2021)

'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone at her'.

Wouldn't be me.


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## YorksG (9 November 2021)

I am  astonished that people are virtually shrugging their shoulders about a man convicted of holding indecent images of children, while celebrating the wrecking of this woman's life!


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## Rowreach (9 November 2021)

Re the Modern Pentathlon comparison, I was perfectly happy to sign the petition asking the governing body to make long needed changes to the equestrian element of the sport, based on decades of waiting for them to put their house in order.

Somewhat different to attempting to destroy the lives and livelihoods of the people involved, as many of you are advocating here.


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## PapaverFollis (9 November 2021)

Of course there is major and minor violence.  🙄 

God I'm glad this forum is full of veritable angels who neversomuch as give their horses side-eye.  It must be amazing to be surrounded by sparkles and rainbows and the singing of the Heavenly Host at all times.


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## palo1 (9 November 2021)

In this particular instance, especially because of what I have posted above, the filming and the continued filming by sabs of children post the Hansen conviction is really very concerning; not only because of the desire to create a social media hate-storm and witch hunt of adults involved in hunting (legal or otherwise) but also because of the issues around what actually happens to images collected by sabs.  

Children who may be filmed now may find in years to come that those images are used against them in all manner of ways.  Whilst hitting a horse is unacceptable, the collection of images of children really is vile and potentially very dangerous.  I have not seen how the anti-hunt movement have distanced themselves from Hansen but it makes my blood run cold to think that he was still active in anti-hunt circles when my own son was filmed by sabs (in 2018 I think).  I had no way of identifying those sab individuals (due to masks) and no idea what they may have done with those images.  

In Germany at least there has been a move against anti-hunt hate crime (and hunting with hounds has been illegal since Hitler banned it there) online.   Hate speech (such as this is) and inappropriate filming for that purpose needs to be addressed as much as the issues within hunting and other field sports.


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## palo1 (9 November 2021)

YorksG said:



			I am  astonished that people are virtually shrugging their shoulders about a man convicted of holding indecent images of children, while celebrating the wrecking of this woman's life!
		
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Not just indecent...far, far more distressing; he was particularly interested in child rape and murder and was a leading light in the anti-hunt movement.  I am astounded that the sabs managed to keep a lid on that as well as the fact that no-one seems bothered, in that context, that sabs are still filming children.


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## shortstuff99 (9 November 2021)

People do have their lives ruined for other issues too, there was recently an university lecturer who ended up quitting her job after a campaign from certain students because they didn't agree with her feminist views. She wasn't breaking the law, this is how the modern world unfortunately works now.


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## smolmaus (9 November 2021)

stormox said:



			OK - It was unnecessary pointless and served no useful purpose. But it was filmed - and that's the problem here. we can all be paparazzi judge and hangman on social media. Does it mean she is a cruel person who regularly beats horses? We don't know.
How many of us ride with whips? Spurs? Are we cruel?
There is real cruelty in the horse world. Why don't people film yearlings being whipped while  pulling huge men on sulkies? Show jumping dealers rapping horses at sales?
The reason is snobbery -  anti- hunt (legal or not) discrimination.
		
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People do film foals being raced in sulkies. There is social media outrage. The difference is that the people doing that don't receive the same social consequences for being filmed, in their social circles it is acceptable. And they are unlikely to have a job that requires them to conduct themselves to a certain standard in public. 


YorksG said:



			I am  astonished that people are virtually shrugging their shoulders about a man convicted of holding indecent images of children, while celebrating the wrecking of this woman's life!
		
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I really don't see how it's related at all except through a very tenuous "sabs were involved and also sabs filmed this". He has been convicted though, so surely the right thing has already been done? He's not just facing social consequences but presumably legal ones that will actually follow him around for the rest of his life. I dunno, the fact that this has anything to do with hunting makes no difference to my opinions, I have no dogs in that fight, so I'm finding it hard to see how the two things are in any way related to each other. 


palo1 said:



			In this particular instance, especially because of what I have posted above, the filming and the continued filming by sabs of children post the Hansen conviction is really very concerning; not only because of the desire to create a social media hate-storm and witch hunt of adults involved in hunting (legal or otherwise) but also because of the issues around what actually happens to images collected by sabs. 

Children who may be filmed now may find in years to come that those images are used against them in all manner of ways.  *Whilst hitting a horse is unacceptable, the collection of images of children really is vile and potentially very dangerous.*  I have not seen how the anti-hunt movement have distanced themselves from Hansen but it makes my blood run cold to think that he was still active in anti-hunt circles when my own son was filmed by sabs (in 2018 I think).  I had no way of identifying those sab individuals (due to masks) and no idea what they may have done with those images. 

In Germany at least there has been a move against anti-hunt hate crime (and hunting with hounds has been illegal since Hitler banned it there) online.   Hate speech (such as this is) and inappropriate filming for that purpose needs to be addressed as much as the issues within hunting and other field sports.
		
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I don't think a candid image of a child in the background of a video clearly focusing on something else is the same as someone collecting actual indecent images of children and I think it is incredibly disingenuous to try and connect them. 

This thread has gone really weird places.


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## mustardsmum (9 November 2021)

If you beat an animal, another person, a child - there is no difference, it is abusive behaviour. It doesn’t matter that a sab filmed her - she behaved like this in a public place. Anyone with a phone could have recorded this and if I had been sat there in a car, I would have done the same. I may not have posted it on social media but I would have reported it. This is not a hunting issue, this is animal abuse, now with a worrying question regarding safeguarding implications as if she is involved with children, this sort of behaviour is not acceptable.

Trial by social media isn’t a new phenomenon and can even be useful in identifying people who would otherwise go through their lives behaving in ways most of us find unacceptable and not being held accountable for their actions. The problem is when people identify the wrong person which has sadly happened here - how that is dealt with I am not sure. But let’s all be honest here - most people looked on in horror at the girl who beat her tied up pony, the dealer who beats horses and the woman who let her horse compete when its condition was appalling. We threw our hands up at the behaviour of the trainers and some riders in the modern pentathlon. But because this lady represents a group (hunting) that some people here identify with, they find excuses for her behaviour.

All that matters is this woman kicked and then punched and slapped the horse in the head multiple times. A horse that someone dropped the lead rein on, so it wandered round the box to its friend. It didn’t try and bolt off, it wasn’t playing up. She created this situation the moment she picked up up the lead rope and made the first kick, and will face the consequences. We all have choices to make each day and frankly, her choice was a poor one.


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## Gallop_Away (9 November 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			Have you seen what sabs and frankly even a lot of normal people say about hunters? They could not care less if something terrible was to happen to her. In their mind they deserve it as karma for hunting (and being 'posh').

I'm not a fun of fox hunting and I don't think it is nice to foxes, but I do drag hunting and I don't think people deserve this sort of hate.
		
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Yes sadly I have 😢 Not sure if you know about the woman who was caught on camera whipping a sab around the head while he grabbed at her horse?  (apparently herself and a young rider and had been separated from the field and sabs had surrounded them - not sure if this is true but anyway). 
The woman tragically died in a riding accident a few months later. The sneering nasty vile comments on sabs fb pages gleefully celebrating her death. It was horrid to see.


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## southerncomfort (9 November 2021)

Just want to make clear that while I think what she did was vile, and think that the double standards on here are laughable (wonder how many indulging in whataboutery had a lot to say about that Linda Parelli video), I absolutely condemn the social media attempts to destroy this woman, her career and her family. It is horrific and needs to stop.

And yes, I do think CP is at least partially responsible and I've no doubt the reaction is exactly what he was hoping for.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (9 November 2021)

I haven’t read the whole thread but my thoughts on the original content.

She lost her temper. She shouldn’t have but we all do. She just had the unfortunate timing to have been filmed for it. Hitting a horse about the head is not acceptable.

However I have used a pressure and release technique for problem loaders that involves moving the horse backwards off the ramp when they plant sometimes with the end of a leadrope always the chest. Is it me beating the horse, no it’s not, so could I lambast this woman? Definitely not as I’ve swung a leadrope at a horse, I have lost my temper and felt like crap afterwards, everyone has, we are human. It’s why I don’t work with a horse if I’ve had a bad day as I might feel fine one minute but upset the next. I am very aware also due to my ptsd that things can change from one minute to the next without me being in control of the rapid shift in brain activity. Does it make me a horrible person no it doesn’t, does it make me unsafe no it doesn’t it just means I have to have more thought and awareness and plan ahead for my triggers. 

Also what I find interesting is them videoing loading, this I find tends to be the point that most tempers fray when you have had a tiring day and the horse refuses to load. They have chosen to be there, knowing full well someone’s horse may not load and someone may have a moment. Not acceptable in any shape of form for what has occurred but it happens. It was no accident these people were filming the horse lorry. However this person will now pay the price for a moment of being human.

I’d love to have cameras on the few saints in the ranks who never behave in anyway unacceptable. Would probably me more interesting than these ‘reality’ shows we get adverts for shoved in our faces in every platform 🤔


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## Shilasdair (9 November 2021)

The quality of mercy is not strained;
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes:
'T is mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown:
His sceptre shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptred sway;
It is enthronèd in the hearts of kings,
It is an attribute to God himself;
And earthly power doth then show likest God's
When mercy seasons justice.


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## DrSeuss (9 November 2021)

smolmaus said:



			I really don't see how it's related at all except through a very tenuous "sabs were involved and also sabs filmed this". He has been convicted though, so surely the right thing has already been done? He's not just facing social consequences but presumably legal ones that will actually follow him around for the rest of his life. I dunno, the fact that this has anything to do with hunting makes no difference to my opinions, I have no dogs in that fight, so I'm finding it hard to see how the two things are in any way related to each other
I don't think a candid image of a child in the background of a video clearly focusing on something else is the same as someone collecting actual indecent images of children and I think it is incredibly disingenuous to try and connect them.

This thread has gone really weird places.
		
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The disingenuousness is staggering. The same users who are aghast at the admittedly tenuous suggestion that a woman who hits a horse might also hit children are quite happy with the idea that a sab taking photos in a public setting in which fully clothed children appear might be up to something sinister, on the basis that a completely different sab was a criminal who participated in child abuse. What?

Hunt supporters are really scraping the bottom of the barrel in order to turn a criticism of horse-beating into a criticism of sabs. We've had suggestions that the sabs framed the woman and provoked the whole incident, that the hunt ought really to be praised because the fact the sabs filmed an "unrelated matter" shows they hunt within the law (?!), and now the insinuation that they sabs involved in paedophilia. Oh, not to speak of the idea that this could have happened to anyone, and any rider upset about the incident is being holier-than-thou and rides about with a halo. While those who say this might not be OK with hitting horses, it seems that they find bad publicity for a hunt to be a far greater concern, otherwise they wouldn't be resorting to this.


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## Dizzy socks (9 November 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			People do have their lives ruined for other issues too, there was recently an university lecturer who ended up quitting her job after a campaign from certain students because they didn't agree with her feminist views. She wasn't breaking the law, this is how the modern world unfortunately works now.
		
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If we’re talking about the same person, I think just describing her views as feminist omits some fairly crucial details. I’m against people being hounded, but equally I don’t think that people necessarily deserve a platform, or to keep their jobs if a majority of students don’t think their values align with the university. There’s a difference between having views and disagreement, and actively campaigning for the removal/reduction of the rights of a group of people. 

Maybe we’re talking about different people though.


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## Miss_Millie (9 November 2021)

mustardsmum said:



			If you beat an animal, another person, a child - there is no difference, it is abusive behaviour. It doesn’t matter that a sab filmed her - she behaved like this in a public place. Anyone with a phone could have recorded this and if I had been sat there in a car, I would have done the same. I may not have posted it on social media but I would have reported it. This is not a hunting issue, this is animal abuse, now with a worrying question regarding safeguarding implications as if she is involved with children, this sort of behaviour is not acceptable.

Trial by social media isn’t a new phenomenon and can even be useful in identifying people who would otherwise go through their lives behaving in ways most of us find unacceptable and not being held accountable for their actions. The problem is when people identify the wrong person which has sadly happened here - how that is dealt with I am not sure. But let’s all be honest here - most people looked on in horror at the girl who beat her tied up pony, the dealer who beats horses and the woman who let her horse compete when its condition was appalling. We threw our hands up at the behaviour of the trainers and some riders in the modern pentathlon. *But because this lady represents a group (hunting) that some people here identify with, they find excuses for her behaviour.*

All that matters is this woman kicked and then punched and slapped the horse in the head multiple times. A horse that someone dropped the lead rein on, so it wandered round the box to its friend. It didn’t try and bolt off, it wasn’t playing up. She created this situation the moment she picked up up the lead rope and made the first kick, and will face the consequences. We all have choices to make each day and frankly, her choice was a poor one.
		
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Well said. I am against illegal hunting, but the fact that this woman was part of a hunt (whether legal or illegal) is irrelevant to me. If she was a dealer, a traveller, a top show jumper or the Queen herself, I would have not felt any differently about the video. Reminds me strongly of an instructor at my childhood riding school, who once jumped on a kid's pony to 'teach it a lesson', and consequently beat the crap out of it. That particular incident is ingrained in my brain forever, we all just sat on our ponies and watched in horror, very much in disbelief at what we were witnessing. People like that have no business working with horses or with children.


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## Miss_Millie (9 November 2021)

Also to anyone saying that they have done similar in the heat of the moment, I'm sorry but you do not deserve horses.


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## shortstuff99 (9 November 2021)

Dizzy socks said:



			If we’re talking about the same person, I think just describing her views as feminist omits some fairly crucial details. I’m against people being hounded, but equally I don’t think that people necessarily deserve a platform, or to keep their jobs if a majority of students don’t think their values align with the university. There’s a difference between having views and disagreement, and actively campaigning for the removal/reduction of the rights of a group of people.

Maybe we’re talking about different people though.
		
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Possibly, I'm not talking about Maya F. The university did support her and it was only a few students that campaigned but it was enough. Whether you agree with her views or not she wasn't breaking the law. Whether people agree with hunting in general they were also not breaking the law.


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## Dizzy socks (9 November 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			Possibly, I'm not talking about Maya F. The university did support her and it was only a few students that campaigned but it was enough. Whether you agree with her views or not she wasn't breaking the law. Whether people agree with hunting in general they were also not breaking the law.
		
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I was talking about Kathleen S, so maybe we aren’t. People are removed from their job every day for doing things which aren’t illegal - there is no obligation to continue someone’s employment. I think if you campaign for certain things, especially those which intend to take away people’s rights, you should be aware that it may not be favourable either to students or employers.

But I’m only discussing for interest, not really in relation to hunting. I think if trail hunting is legal, people should be allowed to trail hunt.


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## Sussexbythesea (9 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			I'm sorry,  I can't agree with you there.  She did not deserve what is happening to her now.  What she did was a very minor piece of animal abuse,  which was inexcusable,   but if it had gone to the normal way of prosecutions it would probably not have been deemed worth of taking to court and the Police would simply have cautioned her.

Her life and that of her family are being ripped to shreds today.  This is not right.
		
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I absolutely agree. The majority of us if we are truthful have done things we’re not proud of at sometime during our lives. Fortunately no-one was recording it.  I don’t mean necessarily animal abuse.

The humans baying for blood are IMO no better than the hunt or this woman. Action does need to be taken but not a witch hunt. I feel sick for her family. The outcry is disproportionate when you compare to the case of Kate Greenhalgh who deliberately starved a horse to death.


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## mustardsmum (9 November 2021)

Sussexbythesea said:



			I absolutely agree. The majority of us if we are truthful have done things we’re not proud of at sometime during our lives. Fortunately no-one was recording it.  I don’t mean necessarily animal abuse.

The humans baying for blood are IMO no better than the hunt or this woman. Action does need to be taken but not a witch hunt. I feel sick for her family. The outcry is disproportionate when you compare to the case of Kate Greenhalgh who deliberately starved a horse to death.
		
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Personally I am not “baying for blood” but that’s an interesting term to use given the circumstances, but I digress…
I would not want a person who behaved like this teaching my children. I would not want my child at PC to witness this behaviour - it teaches them it is ok to loose your temper with your pony. I would not want some who cannot control their temper around my kids. If holding someone accountable for their behaviour looses them their job, because there is evidence they are unable to remain measured in stressful situations, so be it. I would be talking to the school - but having said that - only if my child was a pupil there. But I would feel totally within my rights to raise the issue to ensure the teachers of my children are trustworthy and my children would be safe with them. It is not a witch hunt - as I said in my post earlier, we all have choices in the way we behave.


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## stormox (9 November 2021)

TPO said:



			I was in agreement until you said snobbery. That just belittles everything else you've written.

The reason is she was filmed beating up a horse with no cause at all. The film was then shared. It has nothing to do with her presumed "class" and everything to do with her behaviour.

Heck even the tory loving DM readers have managed to tear her to shreds without mentioning social class at all. Where's their snobbery?
		
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Sabs are often calling hunters 'toffs' 'snobs' 'upper class twits' etc..... that is surely snobbery - or maybe anti-snobbery. It was sabs posted the video.


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## YorksG (9 November 2021)

It most certainly is a witch hunt! Started by packham, quite deliberately imo. This is a self styled expert, who has avoided censure by the BBC, by being "self employed", while using nepotism to push forward members of his household into lucrative broadcasting work.  This mans morals are at best questionable imo


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## TPO (9 November 2021)

Dizzy socks said:



			I was talking about Kathleen S, so maybe we aren’t. People are removed from their job every day for doing things which aren’t illegal - there is no obligation to continue someone’s employment. I think if you campaign for certain things, especially those which intend to take away people’s rights, you should be aware that it may not be favourable either to students or employers.

But I’m only discussing for interest, not really in relation to hunting. I think if trail hunting is legal, people should be allowed to trail hunt.
		
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I was thinking Kathleen S too. I agree with SS sentiments with KS in mind. The university supported KS too. How she has been treated and harassed by certain students and social media warriors is disgusting. These people didn't care about KS human rights, or womans rights, during their campaigns against her.

This is similar. This woman still has rights, as do her family, and whilst her actions against that horse were despicable I don't think it merits losing her job and ruining her life.


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## J.Tiernan (9 November 2021)

This metro article does quite a good job of tying in the webinars with the pony punching, long quote from Hankinson at the end. He was also named at the time the webinars came out, lots of hunting people did comment saying what he'd said was "taken out of context" he event tried to blame sabs as his defence in court. Didn't work though..

https://metro.co.uk/2021/11/09/foxh...ing-horse-is-primary-school-teacher-15567946/


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## Sussexbythesea (9 November 2021)

mustardsmum said:



			Personally I am not “baying for blood” but that’s an interesting term to use given the circumstances, but I digress…
I would not want a person who behaved like this teaching my children. I would not want my child at PC to witness this behaviour - it teaches them it is ok to loose your temper with your pony. I would not want some who cannot control their temper around my kids. If holding someone accountable for their behaviour looses them their job, because there is evidence they are unable to remain measured in stressful situations, so be it. I would be talking to the school - but having said that - only if my child was a pupil there. But I would feel totally within my rights to raise the issue to ensure the teachers of my children are trustworthy and my children would be safe with them. It is not a witch hunt - as I said in my post earlier, we all have choices in the way we behave.
		
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“Baying for blood” was deliberately used because that’s how a lot of people are reacting to this. I’m not excusing her actions in any way in fact I’ve stood up to people like her in the moment.  I’ve never hunted and certainly don’t condone animal abuse or any abuse for that matter.


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## smolmaus (9 November 2021)

TPO said:



			This is similar. This woman still has rights, as do her family, and whilst her actions against that horse were despicable I don't think it merits losing her job and ruining her life.
		
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What is the solution though? It isn't like she didn't do what she did, people are judging her for her own actions and her employers and people who know her in real life are free to decide they don't want to be associated with her. Barring some absolute weirdos on SM who will spam hashtags with insults, the only "real" consequences she will face are from people she knows in real life. 

Say there was no social media involvement at all. Someone else present could have caught this on video and shared it person by person locally. If it had been sent direct to the RSPCA, her employers and social circle she may still have lost friends and her job. The only consequence she perhaps doesn't "deserve" is being in the papers and they will lose interest by the end of the week.


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## Dizzy socks (9 November 2021)

TPO said:



			I was thinking Kathleen S too. I agree with SS sentiments with KS in mind. The university supported KS too. How she has been treated and harassed by certain students and social media warriors is disgusting. These people didn't care about KS human rights, or womans rights, during their campaigns against her.

This is similar. This woman still has rights, as do her family, and whilst her actions against that horse were despicable I don't think it merits losing her job and ruining her life.
		
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Well, yes, KS still has human rights. I don’t support anyone being sent horrid messages/verbally attacked etc. But retention of your job isn’t a human right, and is dependent on a number of factors, including, to a certain extent, your behaviour outside of your job. We may differ in where we’d draw the line as to what is and isn’t acceptable, but I’d be surprised if you didn’t draw a line at all.

I obviously disagree with social media lynch mobs in any context, but equally don’t think that you should keep your job just because what you have done is legal.


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## mustardsmum (9 November 2021)

YorksG said:



			It most certainly is a witch hunt! Started by packham, quite deliberately imo. This is a self styled expert, who has avoided censure by the BBC, by being "self employed", while using nepotism to push forward members of his household into lucrative broadcasting work.  This mans morals are at best questionable imo
		
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Packham didn't start this, he merely retweeted a post. Its not about his morals. Your anger at Packham is misplaced- he wasn't even there. It wasn't Packham who hit the horse. It wasn't a sab. It isn't about hunting and the people who seem enraged about sabs and Packham are really missing point here. Forget Packham, forget the sab. What do you actually feel when you watch that video?


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## Landcruiser (9 November 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			No I am not saying that it’s just that it’s just another social media witch hunt of course it’s bad behaviour .
Did the horse suffer long term harm no I would get more indignant about people work horses with shoes that have been on for eight weeks .
		
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It's not a social media witch hunt, it's people genuinely appalled by such backwards thinking, aggressive, none sensical treatment of a horse that has done nothing wrong and everything right. And I would also dispute your statement about the horse suffering long-term. Not physically, no, but they don't forget being slapped around like that - that treatment can cause behaviours that take a long time, if ever, to overcome. That treatment just isn't FAIR, and is definitely abusive. And whatever have 8 week shoeing cycles got to do with the price of fish?

Sorry, I've come to this thread late and maybe all this has been addressed, but come on....!


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## TPO (9 November 2021)

Dizzy socks said:



			Well, yes, KS still has human rights. I don’t support anyone being sent horrid messages/verbally attacked etc. But retention of your job isn’t a human right, and is dependent on a number of factors, including, to a certain extent, your behaviour outside of your job. We may differ in where we’d draw the line as to what is and isn’t acceptable, but I’d be surprised if you didn’t draw a line at all.

I obviously disagree with social media lynch mobs in any context, but equally don’t think that you should keep your job just because what you have done is legal.
		
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She, KS, did retain her job though because she didn't do anything wrong. She left because these people had destroyed a place that was a second home to her for the previous 18yrs. Fresh in my mind because she was on Lorraine yesterday morning.

It's a totally different subject. KS didn't attack anyone verbally or physically. She was trying to protect safe places for women. No comparison to physically attacking an animal.

If this woman is deemed to have done something illegal then it should be dealt with through the relevant processes be it RSPCA, police and/or her employers.


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## J.Tiernan (9 November 2021)

spotty_pony said:



			Oh god I know who she is!! 😡 sadly that sort of behaviour seems to run in the family!!
		
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the Daily Mail would like to hear from you, contact at the bottom of the article:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ing-horse-married-primary-school-teacher.html


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## Dizzy socks (9 November 2021)

TPO said:



			She, KS, did retain her job though because she didn't do anything wrong. She left because these people had destroyed a place that was a second home to her for the previous 18yrs. Fresh in my mind because she was on Lorraine yesterday morning.

It's a totally different subject. KS didn't attack anyone verbally or physically. She was trying to protect safe places for women. No comparison to physically attacking an animal.

If this woman is deemed to have done something illegal then it should be dealt with through the relevant processes be it RSPCA, police and/or her employers.
		
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I don’t want to derail the thread any more, but personally I do consider KS’ behaviour appalling. She was trying to remove people’s legal rights. Obviously we differ on  our perspectives, which is fine, but just because you may consider her actions to be acceptable, doesn’t mean that view is correct/shared by a majority.


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## YorksG (9 November 2021)

J.Tiernan said:



			This metro article does quite a good job of tying in the webinars with the pony punching, long quote from Hankinson at the end. He was also named at the time the webinars came out, lots of hunting people did comment saying what he'd said was "taken out of context" he event tried to blame sabs as his defence in court. Didn't work though..

https://metro.co.uk/2021/11/09/foxh...ing-horse-is-primary-school-teacher-15567946/

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Do you believe that people should abide by court rulings, which enforce statute?


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## Forum Admin Team (9 November 2021)

*While we appreciate this is an emotive subject this thread is now closed to further comment.*

*Far too many of the responses are outwith what is acceptable on the HHO forum.*

*Any user resurrecting this topic may find their account penalised.*


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