# Ollie T interview



## LEC (23 May 2012)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...ownend-gold-top-for-milkmans-son-7778769.html

Bit of an odd article that has caught my attention. Do not want to get into Ollie bashing but my feelings are that yes he might not be going to London but he made the *choice* to sell in order to have his own property and financially he has done pretty well out of the Olympics with Master Rose and a few others who were all qualified but were never going to be Team GB material being sold. 

So many have had to sell horses - Lucinda and Clayton, Emile Chandler etc all to get a foot on the property ladder and Ollie providing he can pay the mortgage is set for life which a lot cannot say the same about.


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## teapot (23 May 2012)

Very interesting article and I think you're right. It's all about choice, Mary King's certainly sold a few of her's too to fuel other things. If that choice is then regretted, well it's on that one person and one person only. 

Money makes the world go round (and pays for things like a house, or a pension), an Olympic medal doesn't, at the end of the day. Well certainly not in equestrian sports, other sports, maybe, possibly - look how much Jess Ennis is appearing at the moment in terms of sponsorship deals. And I can't believe athletics has as high a running cost as running an event yard does...


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## Lolo (23 May 2012)

It comes across a bit 'woe is me, worked so hard from nowt' when he's been riding at a high level since he was a young teenager. Not doubting he didn't work hard, but when you're 17 and doing **, you have serious financial backing...


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## SpottedCat (23 May 2012)

Ollie does like to portray this 'I came from nothing with no backing and parents couldn't support me' image - but his father rode at Burghley and he SJed at a high level as a kid before eventing! 

It makes me smile every time I read it!


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## lar (23 May 2012)

Well he's not doing himself any favours this week is he?  What with this and the story in Latest News.

 Equestrianism likes those who inherit do they?  What did Mary King inherit exactly?  Except a huge amount of talent, driving amibtion AND (take note Mr Townend) the personality to deal with the setbacks with the same grace as she deals with the triumphs.  That article just makes him come over as another Yorkshireman with a big chip on his shoulder


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## Santa_Claus (23 May 2012)

add in the last 'fourth' space is between him and piggy, now last time I looked we got to send 5 didn't we


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## teapot (23 May 2012)

And also in reference to the link in latest news, I don't know of many event riders driving the car he apparently has...


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## ester (23 May 2012)

what on odd article, I don't think his wins have ever been 'brushed under the carpet' because 'they felt he was different'  olympic selection has nothing to do with your background or whether your face fits.


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## Kiribati_uk (23 May 2012)

teapot said:



			And also in reference to the link in latest news, I don't know of many event riders driving the car he apparently has...
		
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Well I do........but hey i'm only an event groom.
 Love how everyone takes whats written in the papers as gospel, I'm not an Ollie groupie BUT i work in eventing so see it for a different angle. 
As for doing two star at 17... so must be from moneyed family....rubbish.
As for being done for drink driving he is a complete MUPPET of the highest order!!!!!!!!!!!


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## teapot (23 May 2012)

'I don't know of' probably wasn't the best turn of phrase, I meant more of terms of it wouldn't seem like the most practical car. And maybe plenty do, but I can't see it being a first choice of car, that's all. And I don't think anyone's taking anything for gospel...

ETS: they're not as expensive as I thought they were (or certainly used to be) so never mind. Shall bow down to your knowledge.


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## Kiribati_uk (23 May 2012)

teapot said:



			Well maybe plenty do, but I can't see it being a first choice of car, that's all. And I don't think anyone's taking anything for gospel...
		
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Could he not be sponsored by mercedes.........?
Oh yes we don't know so just summise that he has bought it himself, in fairness does it really matter he was drink driving the madel of car doesnt matter!!!! Oh and if he does own it its his money ......so I'm guessing he can spend it how he likes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ester (23 May 2012)

yes but if that is the case you then can't moan about not being able to go to the olympics because you are from a poor background, and your sport doesn't pay you enough to retain the horsepower you need. (if that is in fact what was said obv)


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## Nicnac (23 May 2012)

Oh dear - am I to be shot down in flames for being a big Ollie fan?  Yes, he does come across as having a chip on his shoulder; however I admire his work ethic and what he has achieved.  I don't admire him any more than I do other heros such as Mary King, WFP etc. and definitely don't believe everything I read in the papers! Can't wait to see who makes the team


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## teapot (23 May 2012)

Kiribati_uk said:



			Could he not be sponsored by mercedes.........?
Oh yes we don't know so just summise that he has bought it himself, in fairness does it really matter he was drink driving the madel of car doesnt matter!!!! Oh and if he does own it its his money ......so I'm guessing he can spend it how he likes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
		
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Well then he can't moan for being overlooked for the Olympics or saying his successes have been ignored when he's made the choice of selling horses to fulfill a certain lifestyle. Plus an article in the Daily Mail of all places, is not going to help his 'woe is me' attitude, going by that Independent column. 

Which is the point of Lec's thread I think


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## Kiribati_uk (23 May 2012)

teapot said:



			Well then he can't moan for being overlooked for the Olympics or saying his successes have been ignored when he's made the choice of selling horses to fulfill a certain lifestyle. Plus an article in the Daily Mail of all places, is not going to help his 'woe is me' attitude, going by that Independent column. 

Which is the point of Lec's thread I think 

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I'm saying we dont know the facts, you were saying he had a flash car but now he is moaning cos he cant go to olympics cos he sold all is best horses, you/me don't know who the car belonged to!
But he is one of the hardest working eventers around and to own/run a place like Gadlas farm is brill at under 30!!


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## SpottedCat (23 May 2012)

I think the point is to own a place like that comes at a price - whether that's working mega hours in the city so you don't have a life outside work or selling good horses.


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## ester (23 May 2012)

well put SC. 

You do know that if you sell your horsepower then you are reducing your chances of selection and accept that for what else you get.


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## NR99 (23 May 2012)

Kiribati - I think Teapot has taken your point on board if you re-read the above.


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## Trolt (23 May 2012)

I didn't think the article came across that badly??

I think it is quite a fair point, he's a top athlete but he needs a horse of equal ability to match him in order to succeed. Sadly, he has to make the decision to sell his top horses, in order to survive ... but that lessons his chances of being as good an eventer as he could be. I don't think that sounds spoilt, but just realistic for the sport? 
It does seem very unfair that footballers and other sporting stars are paid so much, when horse riders at the very top of their game aren't, although I'm sure that is true of a lot of sports. The same could be said for actors. 

As for Oli's face not fitting, I didn't take it to mean British Eventing per say, but the general media? If he was a footballer or rugby player or even tennis player, then there would have been a big deal about it. The press has sports that fit and get the media attention, and those that don't. 
Eventing is one of the UK's best sports, in terms of ability world wide and reliability for medals ... but how many ordinary people know the names of any horse riders? I'm not saying eventers should be elevated to football standard ... but I know the names of far more footballers than I'd really like to, because the media force them down our throat. 

Obviously Zara gets the media attention because of the royal connection, I'm sure if she was just some girl working hard to event, then she wouldn't. 

I'm sure Oli has had a lot of support, and I haven't always agreed with how he rides, but I think he's improved a lot in the last few years, and I respect how hard he works to make a living.

Sorry my post went off on a slightly unrelated tangent  general gist - I didn't think it was too bad an article about him, I thought he just came across as being realistic about how the sport is? But I haven't seen whatever is in latest news. So maybe that will skew my opinion


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## tigers_eye (23 May 2012)

I also think the journalist went for the sensationalist/heart string angle too, when Oli is actually quoted it is not that "woe is me"...


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## Lolo (23 May 2012)

Kiribati_uk said:



			Well I do........but hey i'm only an event groom.
 Love how everyone takes whats written in the papers as gospel, I'm not an Ollie groupie BUT i work in eventing so see it for a different angle. 
As for doing two star at 17... so must be from moneyed family....rubbish.
As for being done for drink driving he is a complete MUPPET of the highest order!!!!!!!!!!!
		
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Well, that's not what I said. I said that he's not come from nothing and his family wasn't exactly scraping their last pennies to allow him to have a weekly riding lesson off the lady down the road...


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## kerilli (23 May 2012)

Lolo said:



			Well, that's not what I said. I said that he's not come from nothing and his family wasn't exactly scraping their last pennies to allow him to have a weekly riding lesson off the lady down the road...
		
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absolutely, and the chances of a kid from a poor background getting to ride at 2* at 17 are very very slight, tbh. 
i thought it was a weird article, but of course there's no way of knowing how much of it he actually said...


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## Luci07 (23 May 2012)

I am not a massive fan as he seems to have problem spams with fitness of some of his horses and badminton 2011 was horrendous. I do however, applaud his business acumen and he is a grafter. I didn't really read him as complaining about his lot, more that that is is eventing is not nearly as well paid as some of the more popular sports.


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## dieseldog (23 May 2012)

At least the article achieved what all good articles that involve horses should do and mention Zara quite a few times.

I guess if footballers could chop of their feet and sell them there would be a few talented but legless footballers around..... oh wait....


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## Goldenstar (23 May 2012)

Ollie has the restless energy of the driven but perhaps he has difficulty in knowing exactly what he's driven by.
Who knows the context of some of the quotes in the article .
He's a prize idiot to get caught drink driving that's what taxis are for.


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## Orangehorse (23 May 2012)

Leslie Law won an Olympic Gold and he came from a  modest background, so it can be done.


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## popsdosh (23 May 2012)

I dont see what the problem is ,a few people always want to knock Ollie.
I am not sure if they are jealous or what! I think 95% of people on here would have done the same if they had the chance.He has worked hard all his life to achieve what he has, it has not been on a platter for him and he got the breaks because of his talent for riding horses and no other reason.KC does not have idiots as stable jockey and how many of you criticising would have the guts to take on a yard at 21 and work your butt off to make it pay.
I have said it before on here ,I personally do not know anybody else in eventing I would trust more and tell you straight about your horse.He has always taken on horses nobody else would touch and get results from them.This sometimes makes people antagonistic towards him ,I always think very similar to the way Martin Pipe was viewed in racing when he first came on the scene.


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## popsdosh (23 May 2012)

ester said:



			olympic selection has nothing to do with your background or whether your face fits.
		
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This is either very tongue in cheek or very naive! I dont know which.Ask a few of the riders just under the radar!PF would be a prime example in my eyes at the Europeans YB was nearly choking talking about the medal!


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## oldvic (23 May 2012)

I think Oli's comments about his face not fitting stems from experiences in team situations where he has felt looked down upon. 
To me the article didn't read that he was complaining as much as he was saying it how it is. He said that he is more proud of his farm than any of his wins. He just says he can't survive just by competing as he doesn't have family money. Everyones concept of not being rich is different and 11+ years ago there would have been more less well off young people competing at 2* as qualifications were less and juniors went round Windsor. They were not all well off.
He may not be everyone's cup of tea and he has certainly made mistakes but he also has a lot of good qualities. 
Perhaps he has a point - some of his team mates are given God-like status and any less than perfect behaviour is glossed over.


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## Maesfen (24 May 2012)

oldvic said:



			He may not be everyone's cup of tea and he has certainly made mistakes but he also has a lot of good qualities. 
Perhaps he has a point - some of his team mates are given God-like status and any less than perfect behaviour is glossed over.
		
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I was amazed how much I liked him and his attitude when I went to the Harthill open day recently as I have never been his biggest fan.  He worked his butt off and was very approachable too.

As to God like status, is £5000 to do a clinic for college students without your own horses the normal charge as that's what one of 'the Gods' who can never be criticized wanted for three hours work?  Given their own humble beginnings that seemed a bit harsh; needless the say, the college did not book them.


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## ester (24 May 2012)

I'd guess that most riders don't survive just by competing though, whatever there discipline most do clinics/demos/teaching as part of their profession. 

popsdosh, maybe naive but I was thinking along the lines of if it was a case of face fitting zara would be going for the added publicity that brings regardless of the strength of her current horsepower. I think (might not be right!) there is also the 'problem' of owners sending horses to riders that are more likely to get an international run, which compounds the problem of the greater horsepower ending up in the same people's hands.

At the end of the day we have a lot of good eventers, there aren't that many spaces on a team, some are going to be disappointed and surely it would be questionable for the selectors to overlook the old guard, with current horsepower if they are getting the results . Same with show jumping really.


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## TableDancer (24 May 2012)

Interesting thread  I agree with those who say the rather jaundiced attitude comes far more from the journalist, who clearly has a very "well-defined" view of equestrianism in general and eventing in particular. You can agree or disagree with his opionion: my view is that nothing is ever black and white - there is some truth in what he says but also quite a bit of nonsense  Oli's own quotes are perfectly unobjectionable to me, but have been used in a way to present a particular point of view.

Of course it matters whether your face fits in international selection matters - same in every sport, same in every country - nothing new there. However, it is extremely simplistic to suggest that in eventing it is all about whether you have inherited wealth! Purely based on evidence, Oli has consistently done better when riding for himself that he has in senior team Championships: I don't know the reason for this, I can speculate but I could be quite wrong. However, this record is bound to count against him when he is on the periphery for Olympic selection.

Lastly, regarding the demi-God who asked for £5000 for a clinic: several of the most elite British riders actually don't much like teaching, and are currently incredibly pushed for time. Easier, in many ways, under these circumstances to quote a ludicrous price for a clinic than refuse point blank, safe in the knowledge that no sane college would be willing/able to pay it.


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## kerilli (24 May 2012)

I can hazard an accurate guess at which demi-god it was. possibly the same one who a volunteer told me they heard (direct, not told the story) ask an Organiser why they bother to provide packed lunches and drinks for Fence Judges etc, as 'they should bring their own to keep your costs down' (i'm paraphrasing, but that was the general gist)... yes, thanks for that, giving up a whole day and petrol costs etc isn't enough then?!

tbh i think re the 'face fits' thing, maybe i'm being naive but i believe that if anyone has a good enough track record and does really well in the 4*s before a Champs and the final trial, with no whoopsies, and a demonstrably sound horse, they'll get on the team. the latter point is HUGELY important, we've seen the results (in the last 20 years) of taking fantastic combinations with a question mark over the horse's soundness to the Olympics, and it has cost us very dear...
must admit i don't see him as vying with Piggy for the fourth slot (no mention of the fifth, sloppy journalism there), i think there are a few others with bigger claims to a place at present, but let's see what happens over the next month!


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## Ferdinase514 (24 May 2012)

Kiribati_uk said:



			Well I do........but hey i'm only an event groom.
 Love how everyone takes whats written in the papers as gospel, I'm not an Ollie groupie BUT i work in eventing so see it for a different angle. 
As for doing two star at 17... so must be from moneyed family....rubbish.
As for being done for drink driving he is a complete MUPPET of the highest order!!!!!!!!!!!
		
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Yep I agree.

Dont believe everything that is written in a paper. It is someone else's spin on a story, not nec. the truth or what was actually said.


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## ester (24 May 2012)

maybe he should ensure he has better rights to copy approval then?


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## popsdosh (24 May 2012)

kerilli said:



			tbh i think re the 'face fits' thing, maybe i'm being naive but i believe that if anyone has a good enough track record and does really well in the 4*s before a Champs and the final trial, with no whoopsies, and a demonstrably sound horse, they'll get on the team. the latter point is HUGELY important, we've seen the results (in the last 20 years) of taking fantastic combinations with a question mark over the horse's soundness to the Olympics, and it has cost us very dear...
		
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My point exactly PF made it impossible not to be selected for the championships,however to most peoples surprise did not make the team but got Silver individually.When interviewed after the event the team management barely mentioned this achievement.It is a shame but the team is nearly a closed shop and to be honest its always been so.
I once overheard a high profile team rider standing watching a dressage test say to the owner that their horse would make the team with them.To the owners credit they said it wasnt going to happen!


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## Maesfen (24 May 2012)

kerilli said:



			I can hazard an accurate guess at which demi-god it was. possibly the same one who a volunteer told me they heard (direct, not told the story) ask an Organiser why they bother to provide packed lunches and drinks for Fence Judges etc, as 'they should bring their own to keep your costs down' (i'm paraphrasing, but that was the general gist)... yes, thanks for that, giving up a whole day and petrol costs etc isn't enough then?!
		
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I'll be surprised if it is the same TBH, if all the fans and publicity surrounding them are right, it doesn't sound like her at all.


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## TarrSteps (24 May 2012)

The fees for top name riders to do clinics are very high, higher than most people seem to think, gauging from how many people assume organisers are raking it in for putting them on.  And I'd agree, for many riders who would rather not, it makes more sense to quote a price that's "worth their time" if they're not bothered about doing it either way.

Public people all have "an image" (increasingly consciously manipulated) and journalism is not objective.  I don't think you really can get an accurate feel of someone from their press - I know quite a few people whose personal selves don't line up with their public image.  I'm constantly amazed at the idea that people who run fast or ride a horse well or hit the high notes should be "better" people than the rest of us or, if not, they're villains.  No intervening steps.  Mostly they are very ordinary people (good, bad, a mix of the two) in rather extraordinary situations, and behave accordingly. 

In OT's case he has actively courted the idea of being The Outsider, the Poor Kid, and that can work for or against, like any other image.  As above, he didn't really "come from nothing" in a horsey sense but he's hardly the only person to be cast that way.  Look how badly people want singers to have "struggled" and don't want to hear they had a nice middle class upbringing in the 'burbs somewhere.  Getting to the top in anything involves struggling.

I'd be curious to know what he thinks of the article.  I also get the sense it doesn't really reflect what he meant but he's hardly the first person to have that experience.  People who write things like that almost always go in with an agenda (horsey press included - I have personal experience) and are looking to support it.  And, as in all things, people do have their favourites, rightly or wrongly, who can do no wrong while others struggle to get a look in.


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## Goldenstar (24 May 2012)

I aggree with Tarrsteps OT probally talked to the journalist for some time and a journalist whose job it is to tease out quotes can easily push the the interviewee in the direction they want .
OT definatly has a public  persona and will have to ride that whirlwind now, I have attended some clinics with him and as a teacher he is very horse friendly makes it easy for the horse to learn and can assess a horses character very quickly and accurately he comes across as someone who really likes horses.
I have to say he was not what I expected having attended those clinics I have have far more time for him than if I based my opinion of him just on his media profile.


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## Rafferoo (24 May 2012)

kerilli said:



			tbh i think re the 'face fits' thing, maybe i'm being naive but i believe that if anyone has a good enough track record and does really well in the 4*s before a Champs and the final trial, with no whoopsies, and a demonstrably sound horse, they'll get on the team. the latter point is HUGELY important, we've seen the results (in the last 20 years) of taking fantastic combinations with a question mark over the horse's soundness to the Olympics, and it has cost us very dear...
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I agree with this; to be fair I have rarely thought that the selectors have left an obvious choice at home.  Oli most certainly was not left at home when he was consistently performing at the highest level with the required horse power.

Eventing is a tough game and everyone goes through ups and downs.  The only 2 with the horse power to be almost guaranteed a slot are William and Mary - one of whom made it to the top from nothing, both of whom work exceptionally hard and are at the top of their game.
		
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## TableDancer (24 May 2012)

The selection/"face fits" thing is complex. Look, everyone, selectors/Team Management included (most of all!) wants the team to be as successful as possible. However, selection is tricky in most cases. Take this time around: 5 slots, 4 pretty much pick themselves based on recent 4* form. That leaves one slot free, and maybe 4 or 5 riders who have at least some legitimate claim to it (or did, one notable candidate crashed and burned last weekend...) THAT is the situation where the face fitting becomes relevant, where the decision is marginal... 

ETA: And I am quite sympathetic to the need for team members to fit in up to a point: anyone who has been on any sort of team with a disruptive team member will know just how destructive it can be. The Hong Kong experience doesn't seem to have been a very happy one, which illustrates how it's not just riders but owners, grooms, support team and the whole shebang which need to gel together sufficiently to provide the right environment for success. It is a fascinating and challenging topic


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## SpottedCat (24 May 2012)

And lets face it - if, as a selector, you have watched someone come up through the ranks, invested a lot of time, money and energy in them through ponies/juniors/YR, then it's natural that a) you want your decision to back them to be proven right by them making senior teams and b) you feel they are a safer bet because they already understand your programme.


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## TarrSteps (24 May 2012)

Very much agree with TD - Team selection is a tricky process and while personal connections do come in to play, don't forget the people doing the picking want to win as much as anyone else. You are lucky enough here to have choices but with that situation comes differences of opinion.

Coming from a country where usually teams are essentially stuck with whomever has qualified, I can tell you NOT having that luxury can lead to some epic conflicts. And speaking as someone whose tax dollars and membership money has paid for some of those experiences I have been seriously unhappy from time to time with who has benefited!!  One of the things David O'Connor has brought to that program is an insistence that people get with the program and results would suggest it's worked. This does not mean micromanaging - historically many countries did work that way but modern competition doesn't lend itself to it as well -but it does mean team selection will have a bias towards people whose programs dovetail more easily, all things being equal.


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## Freddie19 (24 May 2012)

popsdosh said:



			I dont see what the problem is ,a few people always want to knock Ollie.
I am not sure if they are jealous or what! I think 95% of people on here would have done the same if they had the chance.He has worked hard all his life to achieve what he has, it has not been on a platter for him and he got the breaks because of his talent for riding horses and no other reason.KC does not have idiots as stable jockey and how many of you criticising would have the guts to take on a yard at 21 and work your butt off to make it pay.
I have said it before on here ,I personally do not know anybody else in eventing I would trust more and tell you straight about your horse.He has always taken on horses nobody else would touch and get results from them.This sometimes makes people antagonistic towards him ,I always think very similar to the way Martin Pipe was viewed in racing when he first came on the scene.
		
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I just wanted to quote last paragraph, horses nobody else wanted to touch, get better results from.....Ashdale Cruise Master is all I will write.


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## PolarSkye (24 May 2012)

lar said:



			Well he's not doing himself any favours this week is he?  What with this and the story in Latest News.

 Equestrianism likes those who inherit do they?  What did Mary King inherit exactly?  Except a huge amount of talent, driving amibtion AND (take note Mr Townend) the personality to deal with the setbacks with the same grace as she deals with the triumphs.  That article just makes him come over as another Yorkshireman with a big chip on his shoulder
		
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Agree . . . and that's why MK is always a crowd favourite . . . her wonderful attitude always shines through and you get the sense that she knows how fortunate she is to be at the top and that she accepts the defeats/losses as her own/part of the sport/working with horses . . . I've never forgotten her falling off the penultimate fence at Badminton(?) when in the lead and getting to her feet and bowing/smiling to the crowd.  Sheer class all the way.

P


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## ihatework (24 May 2012)

TableDancer said:



			The selection/"face fits" thing is complex. Look, everyone, selectors/Team Management included (most of all!) wants the team to be as successful as possible. However, selection is tricky in most cases. Take this time around: 5 slots, 4 pretty much pick themselves based on recent 4* form. That leaves one slot free, and maybe 4 or 5 riders who have at least some legitimate claim to it (or did, one notable candidate crashed and burned last weekend...) THAT is the situation where the face fitting becomes relevant, where the decision is marginal... 

ETA: And I am quite sympathetic to the need for team members to fit in up to a point: anyone who has been on any sort of team with a disruptive team member will know just how destructive it can be. The Hong Kong experience doesn't seem to have been a very happy one, which illustrates how it's not just riders but owners, grooms, support team and the whole shebang which need to gel together sufficiently to provide the right environment for success. It is a fascinating and challenging topic 

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I agree with every word here.

The other thing no-one seems to have mentioned is owners. The owners in this sport have such a considerable input, after all they finance these horses and choose riders and are either loyal to those riders (or not as the case may be). 

I don't know OT at all, don't have strong feelings either way. Have admired a couple of amazing examples of riding and cringed at some others. Such is life.

He seems to attract the more quirky/difficult horses. Perhaps he needs to evaluate why he isn't being approached with more potential now/future team horses? Maybe he is, but I just don't know about it?


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## PolarSkye (24 May 2012)

TableDancer said:



			most elite British riders actually don't much like teaching, and are currently incredibly pushed for time. Easier, in many ways, under these circumstances to quote a ludicrous price for a clinic than refuse point blank, safe in the knowledge that no sane college would be willing/able to pay it.
		
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I know he's not a British rider but he is based here, but Dan Jocelyn gives his time willingly to those who want to learn from him.  Two women from my yard had a clinic with him when he had time on his hands b/c Badminton was cancelled . . . they enjoyed it so much they went back a second time with another yard mate and Dan's wife made them lunch and now they are going back again to spend the weekend at Dan's (in his house) to get a really intensive course.  And the cost is beyond reasonable.  

Not all top elite riders hate teaching . . . nor are they eager to fleece those who want to learn from them.  

P


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## siennamum (24 May 2012)

I think the fundemental problem/point of the article is that it is not possible to be an elite equestrian, keep your best horses, have a good lifestyle on talent/good luck alone.

Didn't Pippa Funnel say that she could not have survived as a pro rider had she not married WF - and this was after winning Badminton (I may have made that up, but think the quote was along those lines)

The sport is funded by rich people, (which is also I suppose true of football), but there is no middle ground in equestrianism in the UK, if you want to be rich and ride for a living, have rich parents. In other countries you can make a good living working with horses, we need to change I think.


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## TableDancer (24 May 2012)

PolarSkye said:



			Not all top elite riders hate teaching . . . nor are they eager to fleece those who want to learn from them.  

P
		
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I really take exception to the fact that you have chosen to misquote me 

What I actally said was "Several of the most elite British riders..." Ok, most elite is probably a tortology for which I apologise, but I certainly never said or implied that most British elite riders don't enjoy teaching   

Asking £5,000 from an institution for a service they have requested is hardly fleecing, either. They have the choice of going ahead or not, in full knowledge of the facts. I reiterate, my strong belief is that the rider concerned had no real wish to do the clinic in the first place and therefore quoted a clearly unreasonable price. It's only the same as when someone asks if you will sell a horse you don't really want to part with, you quote a completely unrealistic pricef in the hope they will go away. If they agree this price and buy the horse, have you fleeced them? I don't believe so. Fleecing is taking advantage of someone's ignorance and cheating them in some way.

Glad your friends had fun with Dan. I hope he donated at least some of the fees he took for the lessons to Claire Lomas's walk fund for Spinal Research - many of the top riders used the unexpected time off that weekend to walk with her


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## SpottedCat (24 May 2012)

And let's face it, 'suicide bids' are hardly uncommon in the world of business! I do it, everyone I know does it - you get asked to quote for a job where it would be unwise, politically or for any other reason, not to bid but you don't want the job, so you shove in an unreasonably high bid and hope you don't win the work. If you do, the £ make up for the fact you didn't want it in the first place!! 

I went to a conference recently where one of the topics of conversation over lunch was 'suicide bids' you ended up winning!!

ETA: I'm using 'bids' in the same way as 'quotes' here rather than implying that people are actually attempting suicide!


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## kerilli (24 May 2012)

Maesfen said:



			I'll be surprised if it is the same TBH, if all the fans and publicity surrounding them are right, it doesn't sound like her at all. 

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that's what i thought...   

good points about everyone on the team/squad getting along. I know of a Team trip many years ago to the Europeans where tensions ran very very high between 2 grooms and their 2 horses' riders because one wanted the radio ON to settle their horse, the other wanted the radio OFF because their horse liked peace and quiet. sounds minor but became major!

that's great to hear about Dan Jocelyn and his wife, good to know!


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## kerilli (24 May 2012)

kerilli said:



			that's what i thought...   

good points about everyone on the team/squad getting along. I know of a Team trip many years ago to the Europeans where tensions ran very very high between 2 grooms and their 2 horses' riders because one wanted the radio ON to settle their horse, the other wanted the radio OFF because their horse liked peace and quiet. sounds minor but became major!

that's great to hear about Dan Jocelyn and his wife, good to know!
		
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Oh, and PolarSkye talks of MK's 'sheer class' - for me it was seeing her face just after King William had skittled out, iirc, 7 showjumps at a Champs... and she was smiling and patting him. That was a real Rudyard Kipling "If" moment... "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster and treat those two impostors just the same..."  No toys out of pram moments there.

oops, meant to edit, got it wrong, sorry!


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## humblepie (24 May 2012)

I actually think it is an alright article and you have to consider that it is written to attract a wider audience than just horse people interested in three day eventing so it has to have an angle.


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## oldvic (24 May 2012)

kerilli said:



			that's what i thought...   

good points about everyone on the team/squad getting along. I know of a Team trip many years ago to the Europeans where tensions ran very very high between 2 grooms and their 2 horses' riders because one wanted the radio ON to settle their horse, the other wanted the radio OFF because their horse liked peace and quiet. sounds minor but became major!

that's great to hear about Dan Jocelyn and his wife, good to know!
		
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It does make for a better team spirit if everyone gets on and a better environment for giving your best without coping with unnecessary aggro. The perceived troublemaker is not always the one who causes the problem, they can be on the receiving end and the instigator is in fact the one who is seen as Mr/Mrs Perfect. This can easily lead to the so-called bad boy under-performing and being under pressure. If this is a known situation then the sensible selection is one who isn't in that position.
It's interesting your perception of Mary's reaction to falling off or having fences down when in a winning position where others behave in a totally opposing manner. To some the smiling and waving is intensely irritating and the opposite is perhaps a more natural reaction. Each to his own!


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## kerilli (24 May 2012)

oldvic said:



			It does make for a better team spirit if everyone gets on and a better environment for giving your best without coping with unnecessary aggro. The perceived troublemaker is not always the one who causes the problem, they can be on the receiving end and the instigator is in fact the one who is seen as Mr/Mrs Perfect. This can easily lead to the so-called bad boy under-performing and being under pressure. If this is a known situation then the sensible selection is one who isn't in that position.
		
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Ah, interesting. Yes, I'm sure there can be manipulation of the situation etc etc...


oldvic said:



			It's interesting your perception of Mary's reaction to falling off or having fences down when in a winning position where others behave in a totally opposing manner. To some the smiling and waving is intensely irritating and the opposite is perhaps a more natural reaction. Each to his own!
		
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Hmm, never thought of that. It looks like supremely good sportsmanship to me (even if it is a facade... i really don't know. perhaps inside she is seething?) but i guess it is an unusually positive reaction to disaster, and therefore might be seen as looking false, maybe? never thought of it that way before.


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## TarrSteps (24 May 2012)

There used to be a very good dressage rider who smiled all the time, no matter what was going on. I actually found her a very hard rider/trainer but it was interesting that she was never perceived that way outside of a very small circle. She came from a performance background and I suspect it was simply a habit that had been trained into her from childhood. 

I also know a showjumper who is renowned for being friendly and cheery but is, in fact, a rather unpleasant person, cheats regularly on his wife etc. and another who has a rep for being sullen and hard on his horses, because he always looks a bit grumpy but is actually quite lovely and helpful. A lot depends on what sort of 'game face' people have, and if they are naturally shy or outgoing. You can't always judge by looking.

Which is not to say smiley people aren't lovely, just that sometimes un-smiley people are, too.


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## Lolo (24 May 2012)

I suppose it's because if you do do what you feel like (was it Daniel Sibley at Burghley last year who had the most unlucky fall after a round that was going so well, in the main arena- he whacked his whip on the ground a few times and stamped his foot in what was a totally acceptable display of fury/ disappointment) you get slated...

ETA- TarrSteps, on  very local level my sister did a lot of dancing/ dance exams when she was younger and had it hammered into her to smile, regardless. If you went flat on your face, you had to do it with a proper, teeth-showing grin. She stills does this smile whilst competing... Makes her look somewhat psychopathic when it's going tits up and she's hanging round pony's neck.


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## TarrSteps (24 May 2012)

This woman also came from a dance background, in fact, she'd been in her mother's dance company since she was a toddler. Her mother was a seriously tough piece of work and I heard from some people in the dance world she was known for smiling sweetly and carrying herself with perfect deportment, even as she was being terrifying.


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## oldvic (25 May 2012)

Lolo said:



			I suppose it's because if you do do what you feel like (was it Daniel Sibley at Burghley last year who had the most unlucky fall after a round that was going so well, in the main arena- he whacked his whip on the ground a few times and stamped his foot in what was a totally acceptable display of fury/ disappointment) you get slated...

ETA- TarrSteps, on  very local level my sister did a lot of dancing/ dance exams when she was younger and had it hammered into her to smile, regardless. If you went flat on your face, you had to do it with a proper, teeth-showing grin. She stills does this smile whilst competing... Makes her look somewhat psychopathic when it's going tits up and she's hanging round pony's neck.
		
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Yes Lolo but is it wrong to show emotion? I personally don't have a problem with a reaction like Daniel's. I find it quite healthy - if it helps him, fine. Better the ground than the horse. There are some top riders that it's best to avoid for an hour or three after **** happening! Others are taught not to show their feelings in public which is good but ....
Yes, TarrStepps, a question of don't always judge a book by it's cover. What you see is what you get is so much easier!!


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## silu (25 May 2012)

It's refreshing to see that others have also seen the other side to well known riders whose public face isn't anything like they portray when not "on camera" Certainly there are a fair few who'd do better to avoid the bars instead of pleading poverty!


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## kerilli (25 May 2012)

Re: smiling through... oh dear, I think I do this a bit, and I did quite a lot of gymnastics as a child (not to any great level, but school teams etc) and it was drilled into us that we were on display, so must look to the judges as if we were happy and it was all going to plan no matter what...

going back to the Team thing - when was the last time someone with a bona fide brilliant track record AND no horse soundness issues was left off a squad? I can't think of any.
Re: the soundness thing. it's years on so I hope it's okay to say this... I heard from pretty reputable sources that both Cartier and Murphy Himself (neither of whom passed trot up on 3rd day when on the team at the Olympics) were taken because of great track records (them and their riders obviously) but in spite of soundness concerns... there was very much a spirit of 'they're the best, let's pray they hold together.'
I think the lesson was learnt... 
happy to be corrected of course if this is wrong.


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## Lolo (25 May 2012)

oldvic said:



			Yes Lolo but is it wrong to show emotion? I personally don't have a problem with a reaction like Daniel's. I find it quite healthy - if it helps him, fine. Better the ground than the horse. There are some top riders that it's best to avoid for an hour or three after **** happening! Others are taught not to show their feelings in public which is good but ....
Yes, TarrStepps, a question of don't always judge a book by it's cover. What you see is what you get is so much easier!!
		
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I agree- I thought there was nothing wrong with what he did but lots did. Mary has a reputation to uphold for being very calm and dignified in every situation she comes across and gets a lot of kudos for it. I wonder if the fact she has a child in the sport as well matters- if she was known for flinging knives (sorry, exaggerating!) when angry, would it impact on her daughter's chances too?

And Kerrili, yep... It's known as the Dancing Smile in our house and is very reminiscent of this smiley  I *think* showing children do it too- when it goes tits up, they carry on smiling so it looks like it's meant to be happening!


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## KatB (25 May 2012)

Completely agree with 'game faces' and I have a lot of respect for people who are honest with their emotions, as it makes them more human in my eyes! Appearances are deceptive!


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## kerilli (25 May 2012)

but isn't it a case of British stiff upper lipped-ness, of 'good sportsmanship'... maintain your dignity, and then if necessary go and have your tantrum (at the wall hopefully, not the horse!) or tears later, in private, not in public.
I don't think of it as being false to smile in the teeth of disaster... I think it's showing control and, umm, good manners maybe. 
I think I feel like that too because a horse is involved. I don't mind watching a tennis player 'lose it' and smash his racquet, but I don't want to see a rider having a tantrum and frightening the horse.
Funny how differently people look at the world...


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## Suziq77 (25 May 2012)

Lolo said:



			I *think* showing children do it too- when it goes tits up, they carry on smiling so it looks like it's meant to be happening!
		
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Yep - I still do it now!  Looks a bit odder on a full sized horse as you're belting round the ring when everyone can see that at your age you certainly shouldn't be oblivious to the fact that things aren't going swimmingly.... but I can't train myself out of it.  It doesn't fool judges


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## kerilli (25 May 2012)

Suziq77 said:



			Yep - I still do it now!  Looks a bit odder on a full sized horse as you're belting round the ring when everyone can see that at your age you certainly shouldn't be oblivious to the fact that things aren't going swimmingly.... but I can't train myself out of it.  It doesn't fool judges 

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Ha, ditto! I did it through a terribly hyper test once at high level in an absolute fairground atmosphere, mare almost lost it, the test did not go well... when I came out a stranger came up to me and said 'how on earth did you manage to smile through _that_?!" and i replied, quite honestly, that it was because i knew it could have been a lot worse... she hadn't gone into levade-mode, or tried to jump out of the arena.

I wonder if there's a bit of that with Mary... I mean, she wasn't smiling when she had that horrid fall at the Euros last year, I think because she was hurting...


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## teapot (25 May 2012)

kerilli said:



			I wonder if there's a bit of that with Mary... I mean, she wasn't smiling when she had that horrid fall at the Euros last year, I think because she was hurting...
		
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That's an interesting point. There's a difference between a fall where you dust yourself off, check horse is ok and walk home for another day and then a crunching fall where you go 'Christ that hurt'.

Take Ollie T's hideous fall at Kentucky - how to change your mind and approach things in a split second.

Was it Pippa Funnell who after falling at Badminton took her frustration out on that mobile BBC camera? 


And on a side point, there was an really interesting prog on BBC the other night about sportsmen and women who were approaching retirement/had retired and how it had affected them. The role of the sports identity, people effectively losing who they are over night and how to move on, if they can. There arn't many sports where your identity could be gone in a split second and I bet that plays a part in some riders' approach to how they react to what goes wrong...

It's here if anyone wants to kill some time: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01hllwk/Sporting_Heroes_After_the_Final_Whistle/


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## Hedwards (25 May 2012)

OP - thanks for posting this, interesting article.

I remember OT when he was at Ken Clawsons (I rode there from age 6 to 20), he was young, came across as very arrogant and lazy - I had lessons with him weekly for a few months. If there were a lot of people around he would 'play up to the crowd' (particularly if it was a group of girls - which begs another question I've always had - why do people fancy him, he isnt really all that is he?) and love the publicity he was getting (comments like - i like your <insert relevant brand> jacket - I could get that for free if i wanted to...)

However, if there was no one else around, he was a fanstastic instructor (although never really enjoyed flat lessons, the jumping lessons were brilliant) I learnt an awful lot. 

As he became more successful, unfortunately the arrogance seemed to increase too. I believe he has 'grown up' since then, and comes across much better, but I'm afraid he always seems to have a chip on his shoulder, a bit sad really as he is very skillful. The point he seems to be missing is, that he is running a business in horses - he will need to invest a lot more (ie selling his best horses) to make money... kind of a given really 

- oh and I'm very bored of the whole - i'm a milkman's son - (who also competed up to 4* and I believe his mother did very well at showing). I think the comment about leaving the £400 a month yard under a cloud says it all really, and doesnt surprise me in the least...


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## ajb123 (25 May 2012)

First time in CR - well here goes FWIW - OT in my eyes has got a fair sized chip on his shoulders - the milkman's son bit just doesn't sit with me as others have said the aforementioned "milkman" rode at 4* level!!!!  I think in a strange way he has a bit of an inferiority complex & the tough guy bit tries to show how "ard" he is.  (mind you I do think he can be tough on his horses but that is a whole different ball game).

As far as MK is with her smiling face and ever-pleasant disposition (& I am not being sarcastic) yes she does come across like this all the time (I was grooming for a friend at 3* and 4* and she never ever failed to smile and say "Hi") but underneath it all I feel she is one very very tough lady - she has to have been to get to where she is without any horsey background at all.  Also I remember reading in her autobiography when she suffered a miscarriage at a Team event on the Saturday night after XC - she showjumped the next day!  Her comment about that was practically blase not unfeeling though but it must take a hell of a lot of personal grit and determination to be able to do that!


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## kerilli (25 May 2012)

teapot said:



			That's an interesting point. There's a difference between a fall where you dust yourself off, check horse is ok and walk home for another day and then a crunching fall where you go 'Christ that hurt'.

Take Ollie T's hideous fall at Kentucky - how to change your mind and approach things in a split second.

Was it Pippa Funnell who after falling at Badminton took her frustration out on that mobile BBC camera?
		
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Yes... walking away from a fall thinking "oh ****" but not hurting at all is a lot more positive than it could be, we all know that.
When PF had that fall at Badminton she blamed the camera, it was on an ATV and travelling alongside the track, and she believed it distracted her and the horse from the fence.  iirc Rodney Powell had a similar problem elsewhere (umm, Vicarage Vee or Vicarage Ditch) with an atv-carried camera. I think having had a fall because of something like that totally excuses the anger... 

Hedwards, that's very interesting. Not sure we can blame him for being like that as a teenager (?), i suspect a lot of people would be. Totally agree that "a milkman" and "a 4* rider" don't tend to go hand in hand...!

i totally agree that MK must be one very tough cookie underneath it all, but she is always positive and smiley every time i've seen her in public, when the cameras are off and there's nobody important around... when i did my first Advanced and was riding down to the dressage, very self-conscious in tophat and tails, she was the only top rider who caught my eye, smiled (of course!) and said "Good Luck". I've seen her surrounded by kids seeking autographs by her lorry in the middle of the day, patient and kind, asking their ponies' names etc, not a second of impatience or frustration.


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## Hedwards (25 May 2012)

kerilli said:



			Hedwards, that's very interesting. Not sure we can blame him for being like that as a teenager (?), i suspect a lot of people would be. Totally agree that "a milkman" and "a 4* rider" don't tend to go hand in hand...!
QUOTE]

I agree, however he has a couple of years on me and I wouldnt have dreamed of talking to clients the way he did... I dont think his arrogance has abated that much...
		
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## PolarSkye (25 May 2012)

TableDancer said:



			I really take exception to the fact that you have chosen to misquote me 

What I actally said was "Several of the most elite British riders..." Ok, most elite is probably a tortology for which I apologise, but I certainly never said or implied that most British elite riders don't enjoy teaching   

Asking £5,000 from an institution for a service they have requested is hardly fleecing, either. They have the choice of going ahead or not, in full knowledge of the facts. I reiterate, my strong belief is that the rider concerned had no real wish to do the clinic in the first place and therefore quoted a clearly unreasonable price. It's only the same as when someone asks if you will sell a horse you don't really want to part with, you quote a completely unrealistic pricef in the hope they will go away. If they agree this price and buy the horse, have you fleeced them? I don't believe so. Fleecing is taking advantage of someone's ignorance and cheating them in some way.

Glad your friends had fun with Dan. I hope he donated at least some of the fees he took for the lessons to Claire Lomas's walk fund for Spinal Research - many of the top riders used the unexpected time off that weekend to walk with her 

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Um . . . I don't believe I deliberately miquoted you or anyone else . . . if that's your impression then I apologize . . . all I said was NOT ALL elite riders hate teaching . . . b/c there had been a statement saying SOME elite riders do.  Also, if you read back what I wrote, you'll see it isn't me who is "friends" with Dan Jocelyn . . . I referenced a couple of women at my yard . . . and I'm not sure how they are supposed to influence whether or not he donated to Clare Lomas' walk . . . nor am I sure whether or not he walked with Ms Lomas or donated his funds means he is or isn't a nice person.  My example of Dan giving his time and opening his house (and including his family) to teach amateurs was purely to illustrate how generous some top riders can be to those wanting to learn.  Why the need to bring Clare Lomas' walk into it?

Seriously confused . . . 

P


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## Suziq77 (25 May 2012)

teapot said:



			And on a side point, there was an really interesting prog on BBC the other night about sportsmen and women who were approaching retirement/had retired and how it had affected them. The role of the sports identity, people effectively losing who they are over night and how to move on, if they can. There arn't many sports where your identity could be gone in a split second and I bet that plays a part in some riders' approach to how they react to what goes wrong...

It's here if anyone wants to kill some time: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01hllwk/Sporting_Heroes_After_the_Final_Whistle/

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I watched this in my lunchbreak.  Then I found another telegraph article http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8691444/Matt-Hampson-I-will-be-a-better-person-for-this.html

Now that's inspiring.


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## BeckyD (21 June 2012)

kerilli said:



			but isn't it a case of British stiff upper lipped-ness, of 'good sportsmanship'... maintain your dignity, and then if necessary go and have your tantrum (at the wall hopefully, not the horse!) or tears later, in private, not in public.
I don't think of it as being false to smile in the teeth of disaster... I think it's showing control and, umm, good manners maybe. 
I think I feel like that too because a horse is involved. I don't mind watching a tennis player 'lose it' and smash his racquet, but I don't want to see a rider having a tantrum and frightening the horse.
Funny how differently people look at the world...
		
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I couldn't agree more with this.  Sorry to resurrect this thread but I hadn't read it fully last time.

As far as I'm concerned it's the height of bad manners to show your temper when things go wrong.  Be that riding, or at work, or at home.  I feel more strongly about it when it comes to horses/pets as they don't deserve a temper outburst and wouldn't understand why.


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## nokia (21 June 2012)

hi i dont know ollie t, but what i will say is that when he was at bold heath last year he was so nice to the children, signing pictures and taking photographs with him, he also thanked judges and was very polite, 

I think he is very lucky, he has Nina Barbour as a business partner, look at the horse power Harthill has, the wealth Nina has, im sure if he wanted an olympic horse he could get one.

Thing is though he has it all, and i was shocked at his drink driving, at the end of the day he could of killed somebody, he is very silly.  If i had the lifestyle he had, id be out riding, teaching or doing whatever top event riders do, not drinking and driving in the afternoon so something is wrong somewhere, i remember reading in the papers he said the worst thing about it was telling his parents !!

But as i said he was nice to us and gave us signed pictures and a calender,


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## DressageDiva1962 (4 July 2012)

Kiribati_uk said:



			Could he not be sponsored by mercedes.........?
Oh yes we don't know so just summise that he has bought it himself, in fairness does it really matter he was drink driving the madel of car doesnt matter!!!! Oh and if he does own it its his money ......so I'm guessing he can spend it how he likes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
		
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Well said !! he isnt sponsered by Mercedes he did have a Subaru Forester but they took back when he stopped winning big classes !! up to him what he drives, could be the car wasnt even his, could well have been his, people just read too much into these articles and and journalists do have a habit of twisting the story a little.


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## DressageDiva1962 (4 July 2012)

SpottedCat said:



			Ollie does like to portray this 'I came from nothing with no backing and parents couldn't support me' image - but his father rode at Burghley and he SJed at a high level as a kid before eventing! 

It makes me smile every time I read it!
		
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To be fair in those days it was far easier to qualify and the entries were cheaper, diesel was cheaper and there were no regulations about types of lorry you had to have etc, etc, and you didnt have to have a top horse, today its all about money, status and who can afford the best horse, the Whitakers have been around for well over 35 years and they are from the same area and background as Oliver and they too had no money or backing, its all come from having serious talent and that talent gaining sponsorship. Oliver's first serious jumping pony, The Cool Mule, was found by Alan living in a coal shed in Holmes Chapel, he went onto win the Newcomer's at Wembly on him !! Oliver has got where is today by having the talent and dedication.


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## sonjafoers (4 July 2012)

What an interesting thread.

My husband & I met Oli at Badminton one year, we were walking the xc in front of him & he heard my husbands Yorkshire accent and came up for a chat. He asked if we were competing (   ) and when we said we were just there to watch the xc he walked a few jumps with us and really had a good chat. My husband was taking the mick & saying " oh I'd take this fence from this angle " and Oli had a laugh and showed the angle he's take & explained why. We left him after a few fences so he could concentrate but he would have carried on with us much further if we hadn't. He genuinely impressed us for the time he spent & how down to earth he was.

I have also read MK's biography & came away completely unimpressed, I felt there were things said in there that made her seem unprofessional and the whole book left a bad taste in my mouth.

Interesting isn't it how different impressions are made.


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## giveachance (4 July 2012)

I have total respect for O.T and think he's a fantastic rider and very hard worker and evidently seems a nice guy to meet. Although does any one else remember when he was quoted saying he would not ride for team he would only ride for himself, things like this can't help


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## TheoryX1 (4 July 2012)

Interesting thread and I have managed to read most of it.  Have to admit am not one of Ollie's biggest fans - have heard loads from a few people I know, who know him personally and thats as far as i will go.  However, what you cannot fault is the business acumen, the hard, hard work that has obviously gone into this and the dogged determination to get to the top.  If you look at any successful business, and you have to count Ollie T Limited as a successful business, you have to be hard working, determined and possess good business acumen.  Whether you like him is irrelevant, he is successful and successful people always have their critics.

Conversely, the comments regarding Mary King do amuse me.  If you are in business and MK IS in business if you take it back to brass tack, hiding your own personal feelings is part of the package.  For example, if I am feeling pissed off, I cannot go into my business and show this to my staff, it will have a knock on and extremely detrimental effect.  I have to close my office door and put my head into my hands or on my desk and cry privately, then go and re-do the make up and get on with, I know this probably sounds bizzare, but have you all not thought that MK is doing precisely the same thing and being extremely clever in hiding her feelings.  Her public want her to smile and she doesnt let them down.  I dont know if this isthe truth, but it works.  Plus I suspect that her owners want her to smile and be graceful as well.  It all about chosing your attitude when you go to work, MK is working when she competes and is therefore no different.

On top of this, our top riders are business people - unless they are from extremely wealthy backgrounds (some are), they have had to work and graft their way up.  As the old saying goes 'the harder I work, the luckier I get'.  I sometimes think we actually forget that the vast majority of these people actually have to work a for a living, and that can mean some hard calls like selling top horses.


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## TarrSteps (4 July 2012)

I would add that one of the wealthiest riders is arguably one of the most "businesslike" - almost always professional and guarded but positive in comment and demeanour.  Like in everything else some people have more of a talent/preparation for it than others.

There are also few around who are VERY badly behaved yet never seem to get tarred with that brush.  In some cases because they ride so well that, as a friend of mine says, "All manner of sins are forgiven if you can ride a horse." Often more of the truth comes out the second someone has a dip in performance.  But riding is a tough, though game and getting to the top of any pile requires a certain amount of bloody mindedness in addition to all the other efforts and decisions.  It's naive to think successful riders are sweetness and light every second of the day, and frankly, it does them a disservice as real, multidimensional people.


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