# caverchon?



## hihosilver (17 January 2015)

Hi my friend has just brought a little girl puppy, she is gorgeous! I am thinking of getting one. Do they make good pets? My friend paid £600 this seems a lot to me? does anyone have one? thoughts please x


----------



## Tiddlypom (17 January 2015)

Hi, I've not heard of a Caverchon, but assuming it is a designer breed/mongrel (delete as appropriate), I'll pass you a tin hat!


----------



## Rapidash (17 January 2015)

I'm going to guess cavalier spaniel and bichon frise. 

Wait and see how your friend gets on.


----------



## Imogen Rose (17 January 2015)

I have met one, and it was a lovely little fluffy dog. Not my cup of tea but lovely all the same. I however wouldn't pay more than £200 for a crossbreed. Nothing against cross breeds, they are excellent dogs, just not a fan of the designer price tag that comes with many of them.


----------



## Amymay (17 January 2015)

Cavalier King Charles cross Bichon. They seem very popular,  and the few that I've met have been lovely. But they're essentially a mongrel, and to be charged (let alone pay) £600 is outrageous. 

Buy either a Bichon or  King Charles would be my advice.


----------



## Dobiegirl (17 January 2015)

One of the breeds(lol) of choice of the puppy farmer, I wouldnt buy and fuel the trade and yes thats is more than what a Lancashire Heeler would cost and they are a rare and on the vulnerable breed list.


----------



## Fidgety (17 January 2015)

How did it come to pass that mongrels can now command the same price as a pure bred dog purely by dint of giving it a cutesy designer name? :-(

Either buy a pure bred from a specialist breeder, or, if a cross breed is what you want go and visit your local rescue centre.   Please don't fuel indiscriminate breeding for profit in this way.

<steps off high horse> <ahem>


----------



## Teaselmeg (17 January 2015)

'Cavachon's ' are usually lovely dogs, however very few breeders of these type of dogs do the proper health testing for the two breeds they have cross bred prior to breeding. For £600 I very much hope that this breeder is different, as Cavalier King Charles spaniels are not the healthiest of breeds.


----------



## hihosilver (17 January 2015)

I am seeing a girl puppy in 3 weeks time, She is £400 I am so excited!!! I will give her great home x


----------



## Amymay (17 January 2015)

Make sure both parents have been health tested, especially the cavalier. They are renowned for heart problems, which allegedly kill many by 5, if your lucky 10.


----------



## Alec Swan (17 January 2015)

I'm not in a position to judge those who breed cross-breed dogs,  but I am staggered at those who will pay £600 for their efforts!   LUNACY!!  They want their bumps feeling!  How does the old adage go?  A fool and their money are soon parted? 

Alec.


----------



## Teaselmeg (17 January 2015)

http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/helthintro.html

http://www.dogbreedhealth.com/bichon-frise/

Please make sure your breeder has done the appropriate health tests, as others have said, if the puppy is just bred for profit and no tests have been done on either parent, she could cost you a lot more than £400 in the long run !


----------



## Amymay (17 January 2015)

All breeds have their problems.

Unfortunately my KC registered and health tested Bichon has a luxating patella (thankfully mild), and I have my suspicions that she may have a heart murmer.

Please, please, please op do your homework on the pup before agreeing to buy.


----------



## Clodagh (17 January 2015)

I think well done to the breeders, anyone who can persuade people to part with hundreds of pounds for a mongrel is following a great marketing strategy.
(Joking, ish).


----------



## {97702} (17 January 2015)

amymay said:



			Make sure both parents have been health tested, especially the cavalier. They are renowned for heart problems, which allegedly kill many by 5, if your lucky 10.
		
Click to expand...

Glad my mum's CKCS buck the trend then, they live to 14 years old quite regularly


----------



## Cinnamontoast (17 January 2015)

If the cavalier parent isn't tested clear for syringomyelia, I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. You'd be perpetuating the problem within the breed and you'd be facing serious heartbreak. Do some research, please, to save future heartbreak.


----------



## ester (17 January 2015)

It seems a bit odd to choose a dog on the basis that your friend just got one..rather than work out what is right for you and your lifestyle?


----------



## GeeGeeboy (18 January 2015)

ester said:



			It seems a bit odd to choose a dog on the basis that your friend just got one..rather than work out what is right for you and your lifestyle?
		
Click to expand...

As a dog groomer I see this all the time. The neighbour has one so they have to get one too. It's how these cross breeds have got so popular. Madness if you ask me. So sad too that there are so many wonderful pedigree breeds that are getting overlooked due to this fashion trend and now on the endangered breeds list.


----------



## hihosilver (18 January 2015)

ester said:



			It seems a bit odd to choose a dog on the basis that your friend just got one..rather than work out what is right for you and your lifestyle?
		
Click to expand...

Actually I have been looking for a while at bichon crosses and yes I know for that price I could get a pure breed. However I really like the crosses and I know it is awful lot of money but think suit my lifestyle well. I did look into homing a dog from a shelter but they tend to be staffs or lurchers and also cost £ 200 to rehome.


----------



## hihosilver (18 January 2015)

amymay said:



			All breeds have their problems.

Unfortunately my KC registered and health tested Bichon has a luxating patella (thankfully mild), and I have my suspicions that she may have a heart murmer.

Please, please, please op do your homework on the pup before agreeing to buy.
		
Click to expand...

Yes of course I will Amy May I even end up with a pure Bichon. I will do research and my friends puppy has had all the checks and was insured fro the first month fro that price. The vet did say she may have a short life span due to heart but he also said that she was a very healthy puppy.


----------



## Amymay (18 January 2015)

Ummmm...


----------



## hihosilver (18 January 2015)

amymay said:



			Ummmm...
		
Click to expand...

? WHAT!!!!! does that mean.......


----------



## ester (18 January 2015)

Due to what about her heart??

Having nosed through a few adverts on various sites I couldn't find a single advert with any mention of health testing parents - more the dad belongs to a friend .. 

I did however find a breeder on facebook who appears to fully health check both for everything, annual eyes etc, phew! I presume it isn't a small amount to get an MRI for syringomyelia.


----------



## Baileybones (18 January 2015)

hihosilver said:



			Actually I have been looking for a while at bichon crosses and yes I know for that price I could get a pure breed. However I really like the crosses and I know it is awful lot of money but think suit my lifestyle well. I did look into homing a dog from a shelter but they tend to be staffs or lurchers and also cost £ 200 to rehome.
		
Click to expand...

Many rescues charge less than this but the cost is usually a fraction of the cost they've spent on vaccinating, neutering, microchipping and treating any health issues caused by neglect. 
I'm not wishing to single you out OP but I'm always saddened to hear of animal lovers who resent the 'donation' the rescues ask for.
As for not being able to get the type of dog you want, I have a friend who is a dog warden and she claims that you know the latest designer breed has made it when it needs its own rescue.


----------



## hihosilver (18 January 2015)

Baileybones said:



			Many rescues charge less than this but the cost is usually a fraction of the cost they've spent on vaccinating, neutering, microchipping and treating any health issues caused by neglect. 
I'm not wishing to single you out OP but I'm always saddened to hear of animal lovers who resent the 'donation' the rescues ask for.
As for not being able to get the type of dog you want, I have a friend who is a dog warden and she claims that you know the latest designer breed has made it when it needs its own rescue.
		
Click to expand...

I don't resent the donation the rescues ask for-I never said that I did, However I do not wish to take on a traumatized dog with issues. I would rather get a puppy that I know the history of. After all I have my little girl to think of. I really think I should be able to buy what ever dog I want.


----------



## Baileybones (18 January 2015)

hihosilver said:



			I don't resent the donation the rescues ask for-I never said that I did, However I do not wish to take on a traumatized dog with issues. I would rather get a puppy that I know the history of. After all I have my little girl to think of. I really think I should be able to buy what ever dog I want.
		
Click to expand...


Honestly there are so many puppies in rescue you could still have your dog of choice. I know you don't want a lurcher but the rescue I foster for has had several litters born to them after the pregnant bitch was abandoned so these puppies have only ever known loving foster home environments. If anything they've probably had better starts than some litters born to amateur breeders. 
I'm sure if you contact breed specific rescues you'll find many are in the same boat with young dogs needing rehoming.


----------



## ester (18 January 2015)

why the short lifespan of friends pup OP?


----------



## hihosilver (18 January 2015)

ester said:



			why the short lifespan of friends pup OP?
		
Click to expand...

I think just on the Cavalier breed as they dont live for that long 6-10 years. Same as a great dane


----------



## hihosilver (18 January 2015)

Baileybones said:



			Honestly there are so many puppies in rescue you could still have your dog of choice. I know you don't want a lurcher but the rescue I foster for has had several litters born to them after the pregnant bitch was abandoned so these puppies have only ever known loving foster home environments. If anything they've probably had better starts than some litters born to amateur breeders. 
I'm sure if you contact breed specific rescues you'll find many are in the same boat with young dogs needing rehoming.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe but when I went to Battersea they had staffs, lurchers and greyhounds and lots of boxers. Besides I really have my heart set on a fluffy Cavachon and so  does my daughter!


----------



## Colouredwelsh (18 January 2015)

hihosilver said:



			Yes of course I will Amy May I even end up with a pure Bichon. I will do research and my friends puppy has had all the checks and was insured fro the first month fro that price. The vet did say she may have a short life span due to heart but he also said that she was a very healthy puppy.
		
Click to expand...

Oh dear, sorry but this post screams nativity at its best.

It costs nothing to insure a litter of puppies, you simply register the litter with an insurance plan and they then hope to gain the lifetime policy from the new owners. 

As has been said. Do your homework, I despise these designer breeds and the breeders breeding them.


----------



## {97702} (18 January 2015)

hihosilver said:



			I think just on the Cavalier breed as they dont live for that long 6-10 years. Same as a great dane
		
Click to expand...

As stated above - totally not true!


----------



## PucciNPoni (18 January 2015)

hihosilver said:



			I don't resent the donation the rescues ask for-I never said that I did, However I do not wish to take on a traumatized dog with issues. I would rather get a puppy that I know the history of. After all I have my little girl to think of. I really think I should be able to buy what ever dog I want.
		
Click to expand...

not all rescues are traumatised with issues.  Sometimes they come from a home where the owner has passed away....and otherwise much loved and well trained.  Of course you can buy whatever dog you want, no one is saying that you can't.  But people here are trying to inform you.


----------



## PucciNPoni (18 January 2015)

hihosilver said:



			I think just on the Cavalier breed as they dont live for that long 6-10 years. Same as a great dane
		
Click to expand...

complete BS!

Cavvies aren't brilliant for health due to issues with heart etc, but I've groomed many cavvies in to OAP status which was beyond 6-10.


----------



## {97702} (19 January 2015)

PucciNPoni said:



			complete BS!

Cavvies aren't brilliant for health due to issues with heart etc, but I've groomed many cavvies in to OAP status which was beyond 6-10.
		
Click to expand...

Really pleased I'm not a lone voice about this PP, thank you


----------



## Clodagh (19 January 2015)

I think you are being a bit harsh on the OP. Not everyone wants to rescue, puppies are nice to have, and if she wants a cross breed why shouldn't she? I would say please go for health tested litters but apart from that positive advice might be nicer than slating.


----------



## ester (19 January 2015)

I think the problem is that there is likely very few health tested litters out there, because when producing cross breeds people feel they don't have to. I am surprised that the OP has found a health tested litter so quickly.


----------



## Dobiegirl (19 January 2015)

ester said:



			I think the problem is that there is likely very few health tested litters out there, because when producing cross breeds people feel they don't have to. I am surprised that the OP has found a health tested litter so quickly.
		
Click to expand...

I think the OP might have been told they were health checked rather than health tested, I see it all the time on adverts so it would be an easy mistake to make.


----------



## ester (19 January 2015)

That was my concern DG, I have nothing against crossbreeds, I think some of the mixes likely make fab family dogs . But, I do think all puppies should come from parents who have had all of the relevant health checks for their breed.


----------



## Baileybones (19 January 2015)

Personally I'd like to see everyone who breeds charged a minimum of £500 per bitch per year and I'd like it be be law that the parents and litter are health tested. If they had to ensure their litter was worth more than the outlay perhaps less poor litters would be born.

And frankly anyone who wants to buy a puppy instead of rehoming one in rescue should be made to visit a rescue full of animals desperately needing homes! 

There are litters of puppies of all breeds being born into rescues that need homes without encouraging more people to breed by putting money into their hands.


----------



## Clodagh (19 January 2015)

Trouble is if everyone decent stopped breeding there would only be 'useless' dogs bred. If responsible horse breeding stopped there would still be a glut of poorly put together coloured cob foals on the market. If people stopped breeding and only rescue dogs would allowed there would only be staffies etc available. (Not saying staffies are useless but they aren't everyones cup of tea, diversity of availability is good).


----------



## GeeGeeboy (19 January 2015)

Also to consider- Bichon coats are very high maintenance to keep so anything with Bichon in it will require professional grooming every 4-6 weeks at a cost of around £30-£50 depending where you are in the country. They will also need daily brushing from the owner, something that many people find hard to commit to.


----------



## hihosilver (19 January 2015)

Dobiegirl said:



			I think the OP might have been told they were health checked rather than health tested, I see it all the time on adverts so it would be an easy mistake to make.
		
Click to expand...

No they have been health checked and I am picking up a girl in 3 weeks time! My daughter and I fell in love with her and am calling her Cariad welsh for my darling we are both so excited!


----------



## s4sugar (19 January 2015)

hihosilver said:



			No they have been health checked and I am picking up a girl in 3 weeks time! My daughter and I fell in love with her and am calling her Cariad welsh for my darling we are both so excited!
		
Click to expand...

Health checked is what you don't want - Both parent shoulds have been health tested for Degenerative Myelopathy and have a BVA eye test certificates ( from a specialist) as well as the CKCS parent at least being tested for Episodic Falling Syndrome, Chiari Malformation/Syringomyelia ( needs an MRI & not unknown in bichons) &  mitral valve dysplasia as well as checking for patella luxation & entropion.

A good breeder will have tested the parents and have certificates to show you. A well bred purebred is the best chance of a healthy, predictable, dog. BTW I have had dogs brought in to me that were purchased as cavachons that were the size of Basset Hounds.
 A money, money , money breeder will lie & say crosses are healthy - not true and such a shame when a child is involved and gets a pet that has health problems.
Please look though this forum & read the thread on Lisa Walsh, dog breeder Norwich.

But your money, your choice and don't blame the puppy farmer when you KNOWINGLEY buy from one.


----------



## PucciNPoni (19 January 2015)

Health checking is what you do when you have a new puppy - the vet checks over the eyes, ears, listens with a stethoscope.  That's all well and good, but it's not the whole picture. 

Health TESTING is what is done PRIOR to mating of the parents.  For example, PRA in poodles - having proof that the parents are PRA clear.  Or hip dysplasia in larger breeds, or elbow dysplasia for that matter.


----------



## PucciNPoni (19 January 2015)

Baileybones said:



			Personally I'd like to see everyone who breeds charged a minimum of £500 per bitch per year and I'd like it be be law that the parents and litter are health tested. If they had to ensure their litter was worth more than the outlay perhaps less poor litters would be born.

And frankly anyone who wants to buy a puppy instead of rehoming one in rescue should be made to visit a rescue full of animals desperately needing homes! 

There are litters of puppies of all breeds being born into rescues that need homes without encouraging more people to breed by putting money into their hands.
		
Click to expand...

I understand your sentiment here, but I find this a really strange comment.

Okay, why the arbitrary figure of £500?  and who would that go to?  And don't you think that would just get passed on to the buyer in the end?  And certainly what would happen is that the people who breed legitimately would get whacked with this charge but the BYB's would somehow avoid the charge - so how would this be policed?   Many many good breeders of quality litters do so not for the money, but for the betterment of the breed, and are doing the health checks and are placing the puppies in to good homes with all the care in the world.  And yet it's the bybers that are raking in the cash for what amounts to hiring out a bitches uterus.  

And making someone visit a shelter?  Maybe everyone who's ever bought a dog has already gone down that route.  I have issues with rescues and shelters - but for the reasons you think.  And oddly, in my breed I support and volunteer for a rescue.  

What needs to happen is the BYBing and people just in it for the money = rather than those who are trying to make a better next generation.


----------



## hihosilver (19 January 2015)

I have been to shelters but its not for me. The puppies have certificates and I saw both parents. The breeders were recommended to me and I am confident that I am buying a healthy puppy that will be my daughters first dog. I am not naïve I have done my homework and I have made my decision thanks for all your advice at the end of the day it my choice.


----------



## Amymay (19 January 2015)

Good luck with the pup, and don't forget the photos!!


----------



## Dobiegirl (19 January 2015)

hihosilver said:



			I have been to shelters but its not for me. The puppies have certificates and I saw both parents. The breeders were recommended to me and I am confident that I am buying a healthy puppy that will be my daughters first dog. I am not naïve I have done my homework and I have made my decision thanks for all your advice at the end of the day it my choice.
		
Click to expand...

Good luck with your puppy, get it insured which I would advise anyone to do  regardless of where they bought their puppy. Just out of interest what certificates does the puppy come with?


----------



## hihosilver (19 January 2015)

Dobiegirl said:



			Good luck with your puppy, get it insured which I would advise anyone to do  regardless of where they bought their puppy. Just out of interest what certificates does the puppy come with?
		
Click to expand...

Thank you  MVD and one for the eyes. Both parents have been health Tested as well x


----------



## s4sugar (19 January 2015)

Puppies cannot have a certificate for MDV - that is what parents & grandparents should have. The puppy litter test at 6-8 weeks isn;t appropriate for teh conditions these breeds get. 
Did you see certificates?
This is worth reading;-
http://sm.cavaliertalk.com/breeding/breeding/buying.html

My first Bichon, 30 years ago , developed glaucoma which is rarely seen in show strains since testing became available. I see several pet bred ones with glaucoma each year.


----------



## hihosilver (19 January 2015)

s4sugar said:



			Puppies cannot have a certificate for MDV - that is what parents & grandparents should have. The puppy litter test at 6-8 weeks isn;t appropriate for teh conditions these breeds get. 
Did you see certificates?
This is worth reading;-
http://sm.cavaliertalk.com/breeding/breeding/buying.html

My first Bichon, 30 years ago , developed glaucoma which is rarely seen in show strains since testing became available. I see several pet bred ones with glaucoma each year.
		
Click to expand...

No I haven't seen the certificates will get them when I pick her up in 2 weeks!


----------



## PucciNPoni (20 January 2015)

hihosilver said:



			No I haven't seen the certificates will get them when I pick her up in 2 weeks!
		
Click to expand...

Don't you see the flaw in this plan then?


----------



## Colouredwelsh (20 January 2015)

PucciNPoni said:



			Don't you see the flaw in this plan then? 

Click to expand...


Oh dear. Me thinks not!!!! As I said earlier. Screams niaivity.  Sorry OP. I hope your puppy is fit and well and all you'd wish for but please do not mistake health tests for health checks which are 2 very different things. 

I think you are possibly hoping you might teach a few of us to suck eggs!!


----------



## ester (20 January 2015)

hihosilver said:



			Thank you  MVD and one for the eyes. Both parents have been health Tested as well x
		
Click to expand...

For everything that s4sugar listed?

Also pleased don't think people are being pedantic, they are just trying to save you and your daughter heartache as well as not lining the pockets of people not breeding responsibly. I for one would not acquire a pup from rescue with similar breeding (and a few other breed variations) because I would want to know its' genetic history.


----------



## RunToEarth (20 January 2015)

Baileybones said:



			And frankly anyone who wants to buy a puppy instead of rehoming one in rescue should be made to visit a rescue full of animals desperately needing homes!
		
Click to expand...

Current debate aside, I actually think that is a really unfair comment. I picked up a health tested pedigree puppy before Christmas, it took me months to find what I was looking for and I am very please with her. I didn't want to go through rescue because I wanted her for a job, I wanted something without any previous issues and a clean bill of health - that might be very selfish but the answer to everyone's problems doesn't always sit in a rescue centre. If I was going to get another terrier I would, 110% go to a rescue and find just what I was looking for, but that isn't always the case, and I don't think people should be berated for that.


----------



## Clodagh (20 January 2015)

RunToEarth said:



			Current debate aside, I actually think that is a really unfair comment. I picked up a health tested pedigree puppy before Christmas, it took me months to find what I was looking for and I am very please with her. I didn't want to go through rescue because I wanted her for a job, I wanted something without any previous issues and a clean bill of health - that might be very selfish but the answer to everyone's problems doesn't always sit in a rescue centre. If I was going to get another terrier I would, 110% go to a rescue and find just what I was looking for, but that isn't always the case, and I don't think people should be berated for that.
		
Click to expand...

A silly and unfair comment, I agree.


----------



## Baileybones (20 January 2015)

Clodagh said:



			A silly and unfair comment, I agree.
		
Click to expand...

Well I'm happy you're happy buying puppies. We'll never agree I'm afraid so I'll bow out now. 
Perhaps if you had to deal with puppies living in stressful kennel situations because they've been dumped, or had to call round rescue after rescue begging for spaces they just don't have, or worse be there at the end with a dog that no one wants you'd begin to understand why buying puppies doesn't sit right with me.
My point is its too easy to pretend the thousands of dogs,puppies included, needing homes don't exist and go and buy a designer or pedigree puppy.


----------



## PucciNPoni (20 January 2015)

Basically what we've learned from this thread is that the OP posted it not because she really wanted honest opinions, but just wanted someone to say "ooooh, a puppy - oh yes they're fab please post pictures when you get it".  But what she got was "errr, here's what you should look out for" and that was all completely ignored. 

And of course it got the "rescue is the only way" brigade in force too.  

And I wondered why I stopped coming on to forums.


----------



## WelshD (20 January 2015)

PucciNPoni said:



			Basically what we've learned from this thread is that the OP posted it not because she really wanted honest opinions, but just wanted someone to say "ooooh, a puppy - oh yes they're fab please post pictures when you get it".  But what she got was "errr, here's what you should look out for" and that was all completely ignored. 

And of course it got the "rescue is the only way" brigade in force too.  

And I wondered why I stopped coming on to forums.
		
Click to expand...

Have to agree, the OP went from asking for thoughts to having done all the research and reserving a puppy just a couple of days later

FWIW OP Yes I do think £600 is an awful lot for a crossbreed

Although I can see the thinking behind the suggestion that there should be some sort of charge per bitch per year I would have to say that those who breed litter after litter, don't health test parents, don't get puppies checked or first injections done, don't send a puppy off with basic insurance/dog food pack etc are the most likely to be able to afford £500 but quite probably the least likely to pay it. The reputable breeders doing things by the book with limits on litters etc and who make smaller profit margins per litter (some would argue no profit) would be the most likely to pay it

As for rescuing, perhaps some centres need to stop demanding the perfect home and understand that a loving home may not always be 100% in line with their ideals. We have been refused so many times in the past we now just buy our animals


----------



## Dobiegirl (20 January 2015)

WelshD said:



			Have to agree, the OP went from asking for thoughts to having done all the research and reserving a puppy just a couple of days later

FWIW OP Yes I do think £600 is an awful lot for a crossbreed

Although I can see the thinking behind the suggestion that there should be some sort of charge per bitch per year I would have to say that those who breed litter after litter, don't health test parents, don't get puppies checked or first injections done, don't send a puppy off with basic insurance/dog food pack etc are the most likely to be able to afford £500 but quite probably the least likely to pay it. The reputable breeders doing things by the book with limits on litters etc and who make smaller profit margins per litter (some would argue no profit) would be the most likely to pay it

As for rescuing, perhaps some centres need to stop demanding the perfect home and understand that a loving home may not always be 100% in line with their ideals. We have been refused so many times in the past we now just buy our animals
		
Click to expand...

I agree with everything but the last paragraph, if you could see some of the imbeciles that try to adopt a dog then you can see why some rescues are so fussy. Before I started fostering I too thought rescues were overly fussy, I agree there are the odd few who have unrealistic expectations and rules, people have to work and not all people that apply are retired and living on a small holding. Most rescues are happy  for the dogs to be left on their own in a home for 4 hours before getting let out or taking for a walk. To expect a dog to go 8/9 hours during the day without a wee break is simply not fair and people will argue well they go all night without a wee break so why not during the day, my answer is well so do I but I go to the loo a few times during the day how about you. Then there is fencing, Ive done a few homechecks and some peoples ideas of fencing is not mine, big holes wide enough for an elephant to get through, no garden gates etc. Then the children, seeing a child drag the family cat around does not instil confidence in me when the parents dont seem to notice or choose to ignore.

Rescues do need to rehome to make room for the very next dog and most of them apply common sense rules to protect the dog,you and your children, if some rescues are very strict try another, breed rescues always seem to apply common sense and will work with you for the good of the dog and you. As with all things shop around.


----------



## Slightlyconfused (20 January 2015)

Lévrier;12777578 said:
			
		


			Really pleased I'm not a lone voice about this PP, thank you  

Click to expand...

These are the ages my cavillers have died

13 heart problems

14 kidney failed

9 (day before his 10th birthday) tumour in sinus

11 lymphoma 

And we still have the 11 year olds sister who is 14 no heart problems, just had two teeth out and has lost her top front teeth, had arthritis in her hips but does not stop her from enjoying life

Make sure all parents are tested what ever you get


----------



## Clodagh (20 January 2015)

Baileybones said:



			Well I'm happy you're happy buying puppies. We'll never agree I'm afraid so I'll bow out now. 
Perhaps if you had to deal with puppies living in stressful kennel situations because they've been dumped, or had to call round rescue after rescue begging for spaces they just don't have, or worse be there at the end with a dog that no one wants you'd begin to understand why buying puppies doesn't sit right with me.
My point is its too easy to pretend the thousands of dogs,puppies included, needing homes don't exist and go and buy a designer or pedigree puppy.
		
Click to expand...

So no puppies should be bred? Except the ones by rubbish breeders who don't care? Or none at all? If none at all dogs will die out as a species, not going to happen I know but you really are talking rubbish. We have both rehomes and dogs bought as pups, rescues do not have the ideal dog for every situation.


----------



## Clodagh (20 January 2015)

And another thing - the rescues should put down the old, lame and dangerous dogs then they would have space for rehomeable ones. 'Never put a healthy dog down' utter *******s.


----------



## Alec Swan (20 January 2015)

PucciNPoni said:



			Basically what we've learned from this thread is that the OP posted it not because she really wanted honest opinions, but just wanted someone to say "ooooh, a puppy - oh yes they're fab please post pictures when you get it".  But what she got was "errr, here's what you should look out for" and that was all completely ignored. 

And of course it got the "rescue is the only way" brigade in force too.  

And I wondered why I stopped coming on to forums.
		
Click to expand...

Correct at every point,  except that leaving a forum because you 'go against the flow',  is simply giving in.  Just because you may not be in agreement with popular,  and often misled thoughts,  is no reason to 'walk'.  Have the courage of your convictions,  and make your points.  Your opinions are as valid as those of any others,  including the OP.  

So there! 

Alec.


----------



## Alec Swan (20 January 2015)

Clodagh said:



			And another thing - the rescues should put down the old, lame and dangerous dogs then they would have space for rehomeable ones. 'Never put a healthy dog down' utter *******s.
		
Click to expand...


Well said.  Why do so many on here seem to be so fearful of speaking their minds?

Alec.


----------



## WelshD (20 January 2015)

Dobiegirl said:



			I agree with everything but the last paragraph, if you could see some of the imbeciles that try to adopt a dog then you can see why some rescues are so fussy. Before I started fostering I too thought rescues were overly fussy, I agree there are the odd few who have unrealistic expectations and rules, people have to work and not all people that apply are retired and living on a small holding. Most rescues are happy  for the dogs to be left on their own in a home for 4 hours before getting let out or taking for a walk. To expect a dog to go 8/9 hours during the day without a wee break is simply not fair and people will argue well they go all night without a wee break so why not during the day, my answer is well so do I but I go to the loo a few times during the day how about you. Then there is fencing, Ive done a few homechecks and some peoples ideas of fencing is not mine, big holes wide enough for an elephant to get through, no garden gates etc. Then the children, seeing a child drag the family cat around does not instil confidence in me when the parents dont seem to notice or choose to ignore.

Rescues do need to rehome to make room for the very next dog and most of them apply common sense rules to protect the dog,you and your children, if some rescues are very strict try another, breed rescues always seem to apply common sense and will work with you for the good of the dog and you. As with all things shop around.
		
Click to expand...

Yes but there are a lot of homes where that isn't a problem yet still refused. Rescues need to understand that there is a middle ground. One place refused us for being within so many metres of an A road, that was it line drawn no further discussion or questions regarding fencing etc, We live half a mile from the A road in a peaceful spot and have a smallholding behind our house where our terrier potters happily with us for hours


----------



## Dobiegirl (20 January 2015)

WelshD said:



			Yes but there are a lot of homes where that isn't a problem yet still refused. Rescues need to understand that there is a middle ground. One place refused us for being within so many metres of an A road, that was it line drawn no further discussion or questions regarding fencing etc, We live half a mile from the A road in a peaceful spot and have a smallholding behind our house where our terrier potters happily with us for hours
		
Click to expand...

How do you know there are a lot of homes where there isnt a problem refused except for yourself which I agree isa ridiculous reason for failing a homecheck, Im sure the people who Ive turned down have told family and friends of the rescues unrealistic expectations, people lie Im afraid and when it involves rescue I see it a lot from potential adopters and people who hand dogs in to be rehomed.

From Clodagh And another thing - the rescues should put down the old, lame and dangerous dogs then they would have space for rehomeable ones. 'Never put a healthy dog down' utter *******s.
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?688753-caverchon/page7#zrmpRkSOM0JCwjlr.99

A lot of the old,lame and especially dangerous dogs do not make it to rescue because of common sense and so the dogs are put down, not all rescues do this of course but then not all rescues are the same just as we are not all the same.


----------



## WelshD (20 January 2015)

Dobiegirl said:



			How do you know there are a lot of homes where there isnt a problem refused except for yourself .
		
Click to expand...

but to be fair I don't live in a bubble. I have had personal experience of several rescues as have friends and family and you often see online silly reasons for not being able to rescue, its not like many people would be shocked hearing that

Not everyone is an imbecile just a victim of one small disadvantage which writes them off as a suitable home. rescues have to ask themselves if a home with minor drawbacks is better than months spent in a kennel or even dying in kennels.


----------



## burtie (20 January 2015)

Do look at Caveliers, if you go for good breeding you should be fine, I acquired 2 mature ones at age 8 and 11 and they lived to 14 and 15 with few health problems.


----------



## RunToEarth (20 January 2015)

Baileybones said:



			My point is its too easy to pretend the thousands of dogs,puppies included, needing homes don't exist and go and buy a designer or pedigree puppy.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not pretending there aren't, there are lots of unbroken, unwanted coloured horses tethered to the banks of the Brant but I would still be buying a hunter rather than trying to fix another person's problem. 

Do you really think that me buying a pedigree puppy is the reason that rescue kennels are completely over run, because I just couldn't agree with you on that.


----------



## PucciNPoni (20 January 2015)

WelshD said:



			Have to agree, the OP went from asking for thoughts to having done all the research and reserving a puppy just a couple of days later

FWIW OP Yes I do think £600 is an awful lot for a crossbreed

Although I can see the thinking behind the suggestion that there should be some sort of charge per bitch per year I would have to say that those who breed litter after litter, don't health test parents, don't get puppies checked or first injections done, don't send a puppy off with basic insurance/dog food pack etc are the most likely to be able to afford £500 but quite probably the least likely to pay it. The reputable breeders doing things by the book with limits on litters etc and who make smaller profit margins per litter (some would argue no profit) would be the most likely to pay it

As for rescuing, perhaps some centres need to stop demanding the perfect home and understand that a loving home may not always be 100% in line with their ideals. We have been refused so many times in the past we now just buy our animals
		
Click to expand...


Amen to all of that.  

Dobiegirl - I understand what you're saying about rescue.   It's funny because one particular rescue fosterer told me that I would never be a suitable home for their dogs because I work and despite the fact that my dogs have company, there are spells where the dogs are left - not good enough for them.  And yet, my first poodle came from a woman who runs a rescue (although this was before her days as a rescue) and she has said numerous times that she would have no hesitation giving me more if I wanted more dogs.  She has seen the standard of care I provide to my pets.  But that's the difference - some rescues write you off before they even MEET you.  That's the issue *I* personally have with some of the bigger name rescues.  I get it why they have rules.  But sometimes the rules just don't work in real life with people who are experienced and capable.


----------



## PucciNPoni (20 January 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Correct at every point,  except that leaving a forum because you 'go against the flow',  is simply giving in.  Just because you may not be in agreement with popular,  and often misled thoughts,  is no reason to 'walk'.  Have the courage of your convictions,  and make your points.  Your opinions are as valid as those of any others,  including the OP.  

So there! 

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

LOL, well I sometimes just lurk and cherry pick the threads I think I might have something useful to say.  I guess I don't expect everyone (or anyone?) to agree with me or anyone else all the time - but FGS, sometimes when everyone is saying the same thing and the person still doesn't want to know it is clear that they don't really want an opinion after all.  I have a hard time when people don't mean what they say.  Or say what they mean.


----------



## CAYLA (20 January 2015)

Great debate with fab points. As already mentioned and a popular opinion is not the actual buying of a X breed. It's the money exchanged for said mongrel and the encouraging and lining the pockets of those breeding these mongrels irresponsibly.

I don't agree either that whilst dogs are in rescue nobody should buy puppies. It's not the fault (hopefully) of the person wanting a puppy that rescues are full from the discards of dumb humans. However lining pockets of unethical breeders imo is the issue.

There are no HEALTH tests carried out and I would prefer the purchaser to just admit ignorance and not tell fibs when they use the whole "oh yes they are definitely health tested" because quite frankly in most cases the buying of the designer mongrels who has in majority of cases not researched the breeds mixed up in the cross so there for have no clue what health tests would even be involved lol.

Not all rescues are hideous with unrealistic conditions and not all dogs are damaged from rescue (I have re homed rescue dogs to HHO'ers) and without being a smart arse please step forward and tell me I gave you a badly behaved dog with issues or health problems ??? 

A few points though (just because you in particular ( not aimed at anyone in particular) think you where the perfect home for a rescue) does not mean you actually are/ and funnily enough ( those who commonly avoid rescue because they don't want damaged goods are commonly those who said just that the year before handing their damaged once freshly bought puppy into rescue 

Not all rescues are full of bullies and lurchers. This year as a rescue we have re homed more so called designer X breeds than any other breeds Inc (all under a year).I will use the silly names (cringe) jackawawa, Poochon X lots . Labradoodle. Poodlington. Jestie X lots. Shih tie. And today I collected a puppy sprollie. All re homes as X breeds not their giddy made up names all re homed after neuter, Vaccination and microchip. All well mannered, well socialised dogs. Lol. Don't ask me what they are now  I am still not saying you should be Ashamed you never went to rescue as that would be wrong. All I say is don't over pay and line the pockets of unethical breeders. We need good breeders. So please pay their prices and get a responsibly bred health tested puppies. And don't fib that tests have been done and don't tell people these designers are healthier lol. ( not aimed at OP) that's aimed as the back street breeders who preach that and those who support them and preach it.

Good luck and enjoy your puppy. Other people have no doubt picked up some fab advice when they purchase their next puppy.

Oh and rescue dogs can make fab working dogs. Why? Because we can re home a dog bought and denied it's right to do its job and thrive and being driven insane with a incapable owner in to a home where they are given the opportunity to thrive from their drive. Including. Police, Prison and for hunting. Yes we have re homed dogs for hunting to the local estates be it terriers or spaniels/ labradors.


----------



## PucciNPoni (20 January 2015)

Cayla, fab post.


----------



## Alec Swan (20 January 2015)

CAYLA,  whilst you and I will never agree on every canine point, ^^^^ is word perfect!

Alec.


----------



## Dobiegirl (20 January 2015)

PucciNPoni said:



			Amen to all of that.  

Dobiegirl - I understand what you're saying about rescue.   It's funny because one particular rescue fosterer told me that I would never be a suitable home for their dogs because I work and despite the fact that my dogs have company, there are spells where the dogs are left - not good enough for them.  And yet, my first poodle came from a woman who runs a rescue (although this was before her days as a rescue) and she has said numerous times that she would have no hesitation giving me more if I wanted more dogs.  She has seen the standard of care I provide to my pets.  But that's the difference - some rescues write you off before they even MEET you.  That's the issue *I* personally have with some of the bigger name rescues.  I get it why they have rules.  But sometimes the rules just don't work in real life with people who are experienced and capable.
		
Click to expand...

That is why I said to shop around, not all rescues are the same, when you think of the thousands of rescue dogs rehomed every year successfully to people that do work, the penny is beginning to drop with the larger rescues and they have to be more flexible.

As for the OP why bother coming on and asking advice when your mind is already made up, Im a realistic person if people want to buy a puppy of whatever breed or xbreed then I would always advise them to make sure the parents are health tested. S4Sugar explained it far better than me and is way more experienced,

It would be nice iif more people adopted but I would never ram my feelings down people throats, rescues seem to get a rough deal on here with some people regarding them as unhealthy with massive behavioural problems. It depends where you adopt them from as one rescue I know couldnt give a dam about homechecks so WelshD you, your friends and family would have no problem adopting from them but you may well have had a sick puppy or dog on your hands which will not be chipped,vaxed or neutered or spayed.

PP dont leave, I always seem to go against the flow but diversity is a good thing, as long as we can agree to disagree and it doesnt get personal or abusive I say the more members the better. We have lost quite a few members in the past for various reasons but hopefully we are all adult and learn to get along.


----------



## Dobiegirl (20 January 2015)

Haha Cayla, you have covered everything , well done an excellent post and praise from Alec as well.


----------



## PucciNPoni (20 January 2015)

Dobiegirl said:



			That is why I said to shop around, not all rescues are the same, when you think of the thousands of rescue dogs rehomed every year successfully to people that do work, the penny is beginning to drop with the larger rescues and they have to be more flexible.

As for the OP why bother coming on and asking advice when your mind is already made up, Im a realistic person if people want to buy a puppy of whatever breed or xbreed then I would always advise them to make sure the parents are health tested. S4Sugar explained it far better than me and is way more experienced,

It would be nice iif more people adopted but I would never ram my feelings down people throats, rescues seem to get a rough deal on here with some people regarding them as unhealthy with massive behavioural problems. It depends where you adopt them from as one rescue I know couldnt give a dam about homechecks so WelshD you, your friends and family would have no problem adopting from them but you may well have had a sick puppy or dog on your hands which will not be chipped,vaxed or neutered or spayed.

PP dont leave, I always seem to go against the flow but diversity is a good thing, as long as we can agree to disagree and it doesnt get personal or abusive I say the more members the better. We have lost quite a few members in the past for various reasons but hopefully we are all adult and learn to get along.
		
Click to expand...


I sometimes feel like a bit of a contradiction - I may one day take a litter from a bitch to keep her line going, never ever for profit. And yet I help with rescue in the breed.  I love the breed and that's why I do it.  I believe that without good breeding that good dogs will decline - I definitely don't want that.  But there are homes out there for the rescues.  I would have a houseful of poodles if I could.  But I promise that I will never breed any bitch for getting an expensive crossbreed litter with a cute name.  However if I did, it would be for purpose and be tested for any and all known genetic issues - just as I would if I were breeding a purebred litter.  

DOn't worry, I'm not going anywhere any time soon.  I'm just sounding off


----------



## Alec Swan (20 January 2015)

Just a question,  and because I may benefit from the answerp);  If one breed of dog which has a propensity to an inherited ailment,  is cross bred with another breed of dog,  which DOESN'T have the SAME heritable problems,  though could possibly have it's own set of impending disasters,  would the offspring be at the same level of risk,  as their parents?

Genuine question.

Alec.


----------



## {97702} (20 January 2015)

CAYLA said:



			Great debate with fab points. As already mentioned and a popular opinion is not the actual buying of a X breed. It's the money exchanged for said mongrel and the encouraging and lining the pockets of those breeding these mongrels irresponsibly.

Not all rescues are hideous with unrealistic conditions and not all dogs are damaged from rescue (I have re homed rescue dogs to HHO'ers) and without being a smart arse please step forward and tell me I gave you a badly behaved dog with issues or health problems ??? 

Oh and rescue dogs can make fab working dogs. Why? Because we can re home a dog bought and denied it's right to do its job and thrive and being driven insane with a incapable owner in to a home where they are given the opportunity to thrive from their drive. Including. Police, Prison and for hunting. Yes we have re homed dogs for hunting to the local estates be it terriers or spaniels/ labradors.
		
Click to expand...

Dutifully stepping forward without being a smart arse - Cayla rehomed Amy (whippet x greyhound) to me 5 years ago on 7th Feb, and I can say hand on heart that she is the best rescue I have ever had or ever will have - obedient, loving, friendly, absolutely no issues at all and an excellent squirrel hunter 

ETA - oh and no health issues, the only time she has needed anything other than her annual booster was when she staked herself running through the woods, and when she got bitten by one of my other dogs!


----------



## hihosilver (20 January 2015)

Thanks for all your comments, sometimes in life you have to take chances. I will post photos of her when she comes home to me. I don't have any doubts. I saw Mum and Dad of the puppy and am happy with every thing so now have the joy of going shopping with my daughter this weekend to get puppy essentials and check out insurance companies.


----------



## gunnergundog (20 January 2015)

hihosilver said:



			sometimes in life you have to take chances. I don't have any doubts. I saw Mum and Dad of the puppy and am happy with every thing so now have the joy of going shopping with my daughter this weekend to get puppy essentials and check out insurance companies.
		
Click to expand...

Nothing in life is risk free, so yes, you have to take chances BUT you can also minimise risks by buying from HEALTH TESTED parents.  A visual inspection (even by a vet) is NO guarantee of the health of a dog, so by seeing both parents I do not know how you can say you are happy.  

IF as you say both parents have been health TESTED, then ensure you see their certificates when you go to collect the pup and if not WALK AWAY.

Alternatively, I hope you have a minimum of 10K put away ready to spend on the vet fees for the various ailments that this pup MAY inherit during the course of its life.  Yes, you may get insurance, but a LIFETIME insurance policy can be very expensive....I know of several dog owners paying over £100 month for 11 year old dogs.  Policies can start off cheap, but certainly all get hiked when the dog reaches the age of eight.


----------



## hihosilver (20 January 2015)

gunnergundog said:



			Nothing in life is risk free, so yes, you have to take chances BUT you can also minimise risks by buying from HEALTH TESTED parents.  A visual inspection (even by a vet) is NO guarantee of the health of a dog, so by seeing both parents I do not know how you can say you are happy.  

IF as you say both parents have been health TESTED, then ensure you see their certificates when you go to collect the pup and if not WALK AWAY.

Alternatively, I hope you have a minimum of 10K put away ready to spend on the vet fees for the various ailments that this pup MAY inherit during the course of its life.  Yes, you may get insurance, but a LIFETIME insurance policy can be very expensive....I know of several dog owners paying over £100 month for 11 year old dogs.  Policies can start off cheap, but certainly all get hiked when the dog reaches the age of eight.
		
Click to expand...

Both parents are health tested and yes I can afford the vets bills and insurance. Any dog can get sick just like a horse. I am not walking away. I cant wait to get her home.


----------



## gunnergundog (20 January 2015)

hihosilver said:



			Both parents are health tested and yes I can afford the vets bills and insurance. Any dog can get sick just like a horse. I am not walking away. I cant wait to get her home.
		
Click to expand...

In which case, ENJOY!    Hope she brings you much happiness.

The 'walk away' comment was just because I know of many people who have been spun a yarn about dogs being KC registered, health tested, from FTAW parents etc etc and that the certificates were going to be shown when the pup was collected, but...................they never were.  There was always an excuse!  Certificates, in the case of KC reg, were going to be forwarded, but.............never were.

There are a lot of dishonest people out there ready to make a fast buck!  So, please forgive those of us here, who are honestly trying to look after your best interests and prevent you making the mistakes that we have seen others make in the past.

Nothing would make me (and I am sure others) happier than see you posting pics of your pup and regular updates in the years to come.

Good luck!


----------



## hihosilver (20 January 2015)

Thanks I will post when I get her and keep you all informed. There has been good advice given on here and she will have the best home ever x


----------



## Alec Swan (21 January 2015)

gunnergundog said:



			In which case, ENJOY!    Hope she brings you much happiness.

&#8230;&#8230;..

Good luck!  

Click to expand...

And another here.



hihosilver said:



			Thanks I will post when I get her and keep you all informed. There has been good advice given on here and she will have the best home ever x
		
Click to expand...

If your planned for puppy is a failure,  then there will be a stream of "Told you so's"!  If it's a success,  then it will be "Down to luck"! 

If you carry your non-confrontational approach on here,  through to your new acquisition,  then I reckon that you'll be fine,  all of you!! 

Considering our relationships with our dogs,  I'd say that you're off to a flying start.

Pics wouldn't be out of place!

Alec.


----------



## Colouredwelsh (29 January 2015)

hihosilver said:



			Both parents are health tested and yes I can afford the vets bills and insurance. Any dog can get sick just like a horse. I am not walking away. I cant wait to get her home.
		
Click to expand...


While I haven't agreed with your choice of pooch, it is just that, your choice!, I will never agree with cross breeding designer dogs. 

What I was going to say was if you can afford the vets fees anyway then save your insurance premium in a separate bank account and use it if the need arises. Oh and your puppy SHOULD come with insurance for 4 weeks at least. Good luck


----------



## Luci07 (30 January 2015)

Why do rescues get given such a hard time? They are mainly staffed by volunteers, who have a family, life and FT job yet people seem to expect an awful lot for nothing. I still support Stafford Welfare who have given me 4 wonderful (and fully assessed) dogs. While I understand people want dogs for certain purposes (working, showing) I will never understand the obsession with crossing pure breeds. The original breeder who "created" the labradoodle took an awfully long time to get it right and breed a certain dog type he wanted. Sadly, other people jump on the bandwagon and you don't know what traits your dog will inherit. I have had it with seeing the sad output of greedy breeders who don't care about what they breed or who has the heartache of their dogs. Personally, I would want to see all breeders licensed. End of. You see, I do see the streams of unwanted dogs dumped. I disagree very strongly that rescue = badly behaved or traumatised dog. None of mine were, they just ended up being surplus to the original owners requirements. The likes of Battersea will not rehome a severely troubled animal. If I wanted a specific breed I would go to the breed rescue. My brother recently rehomed a JRT. His one issue is....dog only understood chinese and had to have a crash course in relearning his commands.

So I truly hope your puppy is all you wish for, but also, please understand there are a lot of posters here who see the other side of rescue and have our hearts broken regularly when there just isn't "any more room at the inn" and a healthy young dog, who has done nothing wrong in its (very) short life is destroyed.


----------

