# No winter turnout how does everyone survive??



## polly123 (13 February 2017)

Hi, I have just moved onto a livery yard that does not allow winter turnout and am finding it difficult for my horse and myself adjusting. Any suggestions to make life easier for us both would be greatly appreciated. (BTW I had no choice but to move to the yard as we lost our grazing and this was only yard with spaces.)


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## milliepops (13 February 2017)

it's difficult... ours are heavily restricted but are usually allowed the mornings out in the field at the moment, but we have had periods of a week or 2 when they haven't been able to go out at all.

TBH, the horses have coped with it well. Provided they have company, plenty of forage and are given a decent amount of exercise daily mine are fairly content, though I hate it and it's a lot of work - I try to get them both out of their boxes twice a day then.

I feed lots of hay and they have grass nuts in treat balls when they are stood in.

I have, many moons ago, been on a yard with no winter turnout at all and the whole yard was settled and happy in their routine so it can be done, but the horses could be quite cheerful on exercise.

Lots of people will say they would never go on a yard like that, but I know sometimes you just get backed into a corner and there's no way round it.


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## Cortez (13 February 2017)

Ours are mostly in over winter. They are fine and happy, excercised once a day, and worked once a day - so out twice EVERY day. Horses are adaptable creatures and as long as they are fed according to their work, and are worked, they are absolutely 100%.


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## SEL (13 February 2017)

Ours is restricted at the moment - more bog than field.

We have a horse walker though and pretty much everything uses it (apart from the odd horse that causes chaos by refusing to move). Horses tend to go on in shifts when they are being mucked out and it just gives them a leg stretch.


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## smja (13 February 2017)

Very easily. Routine is the key - horses soon settle into the new way of things when they start living in, as long as they have clear expectations.

When old pony had to stay in with foot problems, we took him to hand graze occasionally. Had to stop that, because he got bargey in the stable trying to get out to graze. As soon as we swapped to just keeping him in/tied up outside, he calmed down - because he knew that everything else was off the table.

We're lucky in that the yard has a horse walker and sand pens in which they can roll - I have found that enabling them to roll goes a long way to keeping them happy when in.


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## muddy_grey (13 February 2017)

We also have a walker so mine goes on the walker and then I exercise her at night.  We have one who we never see the owner and he goes on the walker 2x per day.  I used to be on a yard with limited t/o and no walker and the horses were all pretty settled, but as owners you have to be pretty dedicated in not missing a days exercise!


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## Skewbaldbow (13 February 2017)

Mine has no winter turnout as the yard owner hates seeing the fields trashed over winter (its very wet over here in the winter...). There are sandpits which he goes out in for an hour or so (longer at the weekends if the pits free) with another horse or two whilst I do chores and then he is normally ridden for an hour on top of that. He gets plenty of haylage and a treat ball along with turnips hung up on string to keep him occupied in the stable (though still doesnt stop him pulling his rugs down to play with ). 

He spent ages 3-8 in this routine then I moved him to England where he had 3 days a week all day turnout in the winter so when we moved back over I expected him to throw a tantrum about having to be in so much again over winter but he has slotted right back into the old routine much to my relief. Ideally I'd rather he was out in the winter but unfortunately it just isn't possible at our yard.

I think it depends on the horse really how they handle it. Some cope fine, others go a bit crazy. I'm lucky mine is so laid back and as long as I don't give him too many days off in the week we don't have many mad moments when riding!


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## Charlie31 (13 February 2017)

We don't have to keep ours in all the time but it will be restricted if the weather's really bad. Last year they were in for a fortnight straight at one point and the main way I got through it was by telling myself that soon it would be over. We do have a school but everybody fights to get in it at peak times, and we don't have a walker or turnout pens so we can't get them to self-exercise whilst doing our jobs. I find it very time consuming on top of a full time job when they are in.

My only suggestions are that if they are in I do all my jobs properly in the morning and in the evening it will be a quick lift out of the poos and top up of hay and water to try and save that being a full on chore at both ends of the day. I try and do a proper ride in the morning, even if only a quickie to stretch his legs, and then in the evening I just wander around with him in hand for a while. Grooming gets very functional too to save some time there. Stable toys can help with your horse's boredom and lots and lots of hay/haylage. You could do things like hide carrots and apples in his hay for him to find too. If there are other horses around and they are settled that should be a bonus as well.

My only other suggestion is can you go on a waitlist for somewhere that does allow turnout so at least you don't have to put up with it forever or is this your only option?


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## meleeka (13 February 2017)

I'd bide my time until somewhere with turnout comes up. I think you need to make time to get them out at least twice a day.


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## Lintel (13 February 2017)

It is really hard and not good for the horse in my opinion.
I'm moving 

Love the yard but too difficult seeing horses in during the winter even when the weather is good. We are off to out own place next month


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## honetpot (13 February 2017)

I used to be at livery on a moorside, no turn out from October to April, the horse just seemed to know that was it. I brought him home one winter to a stable converted in our garage, as it seemed pointless paying for livery and I did not drive. He seemed quite content


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## jumping.jack_flash (13 February 2017)

That's stupid! Who the hell has a yard, but no turn out!

I was on a DIY yard, and YES in that bad winter when everywhere was flooding, we were on'lock down' for 13 weeks! .  .

But I have never experienced a yard that has limited turn out . .i just would not pay for such a service!

I've recently moved yard and on livery . .  Although I'm a little concerned about the limited time of turn out in the field  . . I've put it down to it being the hours the grooms work . . . So yard starts at 7.30, and horses go out I reckon for 8.30, 9 . .and start coming back in at 14.30. First out first in . . .  I can cope with this (for now) . . 

But anyone having no turn out . . .MOVE! . . I could not stayed locked up in a stable . . It would be like a prison, without parole . .and only let out for yard exercise . . I would start having health and behaviour issues myself! . . . 

And, im sorry if I've upset the apple cart . .but no way would I have my animal in that situation, unless it is temporarily purposes only . .not months on end! . . 

Also, I must add, when we had that situation of 'lock down' in that bad year of weather . .the owner DID greatly reduce our rents! . . .


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## milliepops (13 February 2017)

A touch OTT there I think JJF.

How far would you like people to move? we're on clay in my area.... so, should i upsticks and move house to somewhere with, say, chalk, so that I can access yards with different winter regimes?  I better change my job too, while I'm at it, lol.  
How are all the yards with well draining turnout going to cope with the influx of horses and owners who need to move in from places with poor draining land I wonder ?!


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## Slightly Foxed (13 February 2017)

jumping.jack_flash said:



			That's stupid! Who the hell has a yard, but no turn out!

I was on a DIY yard, and YES in that bad winter when everywhere was flooding, we were on'lock down' for 13 weeks! .  .


But I have never experienced a yard that has limited turn out . .i just would not pay for such a service!

I've recently moved yard and on livery . .  Although I'm a little concerned about the limited time of turn out in the field  . . I've put it down to it being the hours the grooms work . . . So yard starts at 7.30, and horses go out I reckon for 8.30, 9 . .and start coming back in at 14.30. First out first in . . .  I can cope with this (for now) . . 

But anyone having no turn out . . .MOVE! . . I could not stayed locked up in a stable . . It would be like a prison, without parole . .and only let out for yard exercise . . I would start having health and behaviour issues myself! . . . 

And, im sorry if I've upset the apple cart . .but no way would I have my animal in that situation, unless it is temporarily purposes only . .not months on end! . . 

Also, I must add, when we had that situation of 'lock down' in that bad year of weather . .the owner DID greatly reduce our rents! . . .
		
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Is it because people are running yards with too many horses on too little acreage? I am on ghastly heavy clay that goes to welly-sucking bog in the winter. I have winter sacrifice paddocks, each invested with 10 x 20 metre hard standing at great expense so the horses can get out of the mud.


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## chocolategirl (13 February 2017)

I find posts like this terribly depressing I'm afraid. IMHO I don't see why all yards can't have a 'sacrifice' paddock so that all horses get a least a couple of hours out every day. Our paddocks look horrific by the end of the winter but we have a yard full of happy, SANE and healthy horses and yes, it's not cheap to resow and dress them etc after they move to summer paddocks, but frankly if I couldn't provide daily turnout all year round I would not be operating as a livery yard. It's no wonder there are so many 'badly' behaved horses up and down the country!


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## Sparemare (13 February 2017)

The cost of land round here stands at in excess of £10,000 an acre.  It costs a fortune to build and maintain stables, fencing etc.  Yet the price people are prepared to pay for livery remains low.  No wonder yard owners cram them on.


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## scats (13 February 2017)

I did many years with restricted winter turnout, but they still got a few hours a day, but I would never go back to that.

We are so lucky that we have brilliant land and we don't overgraze, horses are paired and we have more fields than horses so we rotate.  We have absolutely zero mud now and the horses get full days every day.


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## milliepops (13 February 2017)

chocolategirl said:



			I find posts like this terribly depressing I'm afraid. IMHO I don't see why all yards can't have a 'sacrifice' paddock so that all horses get a least a couple of hours out every day. Our paddocks look horrific by the end of the winter but we have a yard full of happy, SANE and healthy horses and yes, it's not cheap to resow and dress them etc after they move to summer paddocks, but frankly if I couldn't provide daily turnout all year round I would not be operating as a livery yard. It's no wonder there are so many 'badly' behaved horses up and down the country!
		
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there have been a lot of threads on here about badly behaved horses... I don't think a lack of winter turnout is the cause in most cases tbh. My horses are well behaved whether they are in or out, it's about training, appropriate feeding and exercise.  We'd all love 24/7 turnout on top of that, but the reality is quite different for a lot of people and wishing it was different doesn't change the price of land.


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## jumping.jack_flash (13 February 2017)

Yes, a sacrificed paddock . .or restricted turnout, minimum half days . . . It's just not fair for the horses, or the owners . .. Regardless, It's stressful all round.

I didn't wan to be harsh . .but I WOULD do whatever I can to keep my animal mobile and happy.

As someone has also said . .  Yards are squeezing as many horses in as possible, forgetting about the winter months . .  and then wonder why people get upset when turn out is stopped.

It's just is not good business savy! . .happy horses = happy owners, which = profit and good productivity with excellent clients, who WILL pay more in the long term for an excellent service! . . .


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## Louby (13 February 2017)

Its a difficult one, Ive been on a yard with turnout, basically turned to mud and they trashed it even more as they played, ran round, ripped rugs and risked injury if not from running around, from wanting food., soon stood at the gate wanting in.   Putting out piles of hay/hayledge works for small herds but can be difficult or not allowed on livery yards.  I moved to a yard that had no turnont, suprisingly it worked great, all the horses were in, no coming and going and they were all/ or seemed happy.  This year we got turnout, but its been so hard, Ive been backwards and forwards 3 times a day to the yard to make sure she got out as we were told we had to respect the fields.  Those that havent have horses up to their knees in mud and stood after a short while getting up to no good wanting to come in.   Ive been lucky as a change of job made it possible to get my horse out for a short time but those horses that didnt get out for whatever reason seem as happy and chilled as they were previously.  In an ideal world winter turnout is great, lovely flat green fields but land is now at a premium and lots of yards just dont have enough to allow it to be wrecked.  I think routine is the key and providing they get sufficient exercise, although not ideal no turnout can work.


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## Sukistokes2 (13 February 2017)

I have a winter paddock, my horses go out everyday, whatever the weather. I'm a teacher and work a good way from home, so am unable to go back and forth getting horses in and out, over the course of the day. The go out, they eat their round bale and come in of an evening. I don't worry what the paddock looks like, it will grow back over the course of the summer. The horses are happy to go out and happy to come in for tea. They have yet to be dissolved by the mud or melted by the rain. Although we try to do our best for our horses, at times they have to fit into our life styles, I simply could not manage on a yard on restricted turnout and I would not want to keep my horses in all the time, as I personally think it's unfair on them. Riding them about is not the same as them having time in the paddock with their mates.


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## laura_nash (13 February 2017)

milliepops said:



			A touch OTT there I think JJF.

How far would you like people to move? we're on clay in my area.... so, should i upsticks and move house to somewhere with, say, chalk, so that I can access yards with different winter regimes?  I better change my job too, while I'm at it, lol.  
How are all the yards with well draining turnout going to cope with the influx of horses and owners who need to move in from places with poor draining land I wonder ?!
		
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In the end horse ownership is not a basic human right for all people.  If you cannot access suitable facilities in your area within your budget then you move or don't have a horse, its not complicated.  I'm not saying this is your situation, but I do get sick of people saying they "have" to keep their horse permanently in this or that situation, because NO you don't.  You could move, you could keep your horse on full / grass livery elsewhere and not see it as often or you could sell / rehome it.

Personally I moved to another country, taking a big risk by not having a new job lined up first, and a big factor in that decision was being able to afford land so I could keep my horse at home and living out.  That was my decision and I understand people might have different priorities or ties that make it impossible.  But moving and changing job is not some mad, impossible thing that no-one can ever or will ever do.

The only horses I have known that have seemed truly happy in full time were at the college I attended many years ago and were working hard around 2-3 hours every day, plus usually around 2 hours of handling in practical classes.  They were all older retired competition horses.


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## Amymay (13 February 2017)

It's not how I would want to keep my horse. However providing you can give a couple of hours exercise a day then the horse will probably be fine.


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## Cortez (13 February 2017)

I have worked with horses all over the world and have kept horses in many different systems, horses are adaptable. Perhaps the only reason you "have" to turn out is if you are not capable of providing adequate exercise? Horses are only "stuck in" if you don't take them out, and riding, lunging or other active work is a lot more effective than hours standing around in a bog looking miserable......


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## jumping.jack_flash (13 February 2017)

Horses are herd animals. . . Even when the DIY yard was,on lock down for those bad weeks of weather one winter, I and others hired a broom to pop up and turn our horses out in the indoor school in pairs, whilst the stables were skipped back out, so the horses were not standing in their crap . .water topped up a d hay.

Our horses could groom and touch there field friend . .  Yes it got expensive to hire someone . . but I would of done anything to keep my horse sane, and as comfortable as,possible,. 

Must add, during lock down, I got up even earlier to share the indoor school with walking the horses around in hand (no horse walker) . .just to stretch their overnight legs . . and then popping them back in the stable until the lunch time groom could turn up. Then in the evening, sharing the indoor school with everyone walking in hand . .some did ride . . and trying to hand graze in the dark! . . 

I would never move to a yard that has no winter grazing! . . .

Moving a horse and paying the extra in the LNG term for winter turn out, is more beneficial, than getting a vet for those stiff puffy joints, sore stiff backs . . .


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## Cortez (13 February 2017)

jumping.jack_flash said:



			Horses are herd animals. . . Even when the DIY yard was,on lock down for those bad weeks of weather one winter, I and others hired a broom to pop up and turn our horses out in the indoor school in pairs, whilst the stables were skipped back out, so the horses were not standing in their crap . .water topped up a d hay.

Our horses could groom and touch there field friend . .  Yes it got expensive to hire someone . . but I would of done anything to keep my horse sane, and as comfortable as,possible,. 

Must add, during lock down, I got up even earlier to share the indoor school with walking the horses around in hand (no horse walker) . .just to stretch their overnight legs . . and then popping them back in the stable until the lunch time groom could turn up. Then in the evening, sharing the indoor school with everyone walking in hand . .some did ride . . and trying to hand graze in the dark! . . 

I would never move to a yard that has no winter grazing! . . .

Moving a horse and paying the extra in the LNG term for winter turn out, is more beneficial, than getting a vet for those stiff puffy joints, sore stiff backs . . .
		
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But if you actually RODE THE HORSE and exercised it properly then they wouldn't be getting the puffy joints, etc. etc...........


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## laura_nash (13 February 2017)

Cortez said:



			Perhaps the only reason you "have" to turn out is if you are not capable of providing adequate exercise?
		
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Agreed.  Personally I could never provide mine with what I would consider adequate exercise every day.  Its much more manageable if the horse is working hard, but not that many private leisure horses do work hard in winter.


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## Ranyhyn (13 February 2017)

Adequate exercise, appropriate feeding and intelligent management is the key I think.


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## sport horse (13 February 2017)

I love the way everyone thinks their horses love being out in a filthy wet, muddy turnout field in the tipping rain and searing east wind.

I have two mares - one is 26 and the other is retired and in foal. They are the only horses in this yard that go out during the wet winter months. This last week the old mare has managed nearly an hour before coming back to the gate and whinnying to attract attention. If you ignore her she starts to rattle the gate until she is brought in. Today was sunny and she stayed put for 3 hours.  The in foal mare, an ex sport horse, is not much different. They hate being left out too long and I listen to them.


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## paddi22 (13 February 2017)

yards need to adapt to cope with the muddier situations that seem to be arising now in winter. personally i think it is intensely cruel to leave a horse stables 24/7 unless it gets out to do proper work, not just a half hour schooling session a day. it is no life at all for them to not be able to play, canter and socialise. I know ground type etc makes a massive difference, but they are simple things yards can do to think of the horses welfare.

I keep mine at home, but if i had to do livery and didn't have the time even something similar to the attached stable design in the link below would be a step up in the horses welfare.  at least they have the choice of being in the sun or grooming over the fence.  was at that yard recently for a show and thought it was a lovely solution to let stabled horses have a better quality of life. The stables have a small section outdoors that they horses can wander in and out of and interact with their neighbours

http://redhills-stud.ie/index.php/gallery/


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## L&M (13 February 2017)

I agree sport horse. I am lucky enough to have a small paddock for winter t/o, but by now the grass has gone and all my horse wants is a couple of hours leg stretch and a roll, then back to his nice net of hay.

I was watching some horses out on sunday - it was a filthy, wet and cold afternoon and they went from standing around looking miserable, to fighting as were so fed up and no doubt impatient to come in. They ended up trashing their paddock in a matter of hours........

When we have had periods of no t/o due to wet fields, mine copes very well as long as he is exercised - if I know he has to stay in he is lunged and ridden, and we also have the luxury of an indoor school to let them have a run about in. 

I appreciate however there are horses who could not tolerate no winter t/o but then it is the responsibility of the owner to find more suitable accommodation.


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## charlie76 (13 February 2017)

I have my own yard with 32 horses living in. The race horses that are in pre training are now in 24/7 as the trainer wants them like that. They are exercised, go on the walker and are turned out in a barn loose for a couple of hours. 
Their has always been a "rumour" in my area that I hardly ever turn out. I have no idea why.
 In reality , all of my liveries and my horses are out almost every day in the winter for 2-3 hours a day. I have decided to keep them in the same paddocks all winter and close my eyes to the hoof prints and scuff marks!! I am lucky as we are on sandy ish soil and in a day of sun and wind they are all bone dry and I will be having them rolled at the weekend. You can walk in and catch in shoes rather than boots.
I have said to my liveries that if we have prolonged wet weather then I may have to keep them in for a couple of days just to preserve some of the grazing. This has happened a max of six days all winter. 
On the in days they are on the walker at least once, exercised and turned loose in the indoor turn out for a roll. 

I find that by preserving the grazing all year is actually better than just doing it in the winter. 

I turn them out for 5-6 hours in the summer. By never over grazing and leaving them out too long there is always ample grazing all year round. I put hay out, they never eat it so there must be grass.


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## meleeka (13 February 2017)

For those whose horses won't stay out, do they have hay in the field? 
I'm fortunate to keep mine on my own land but in all honesty, they'd stay wherever the hay was put. The only thing they wouldnt tolerate is in 23 hours but that's because they aren't used to it. I do think horses adapt, but it can't be good for them long term.
I think the idea of pens outside stables is a good one. Perhaps this is could be a solution for some yards. Just saying we can't have fields ruined without any thought to 'fix' the problem isn't fair to the horses.


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## charlie76 (13 February 2017)

Its actually amazing how well they do adapt. Having had horses in 24/7 , out 24/7 and everything in between, I have found, in my experience, as long as they have a routine, do something similar each day and have some form of exercise each day then they are fine. When we had them in 24/7 none of them were any different to ride or handle. None looked fed up and none developed stable vices.


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## Slavetoapril (14 February 2017)

It is a weird one, i am on a DIY yard and we are fortunate enough to have all year turnout (the main reason i chose the yard). Our pony paddock is looking a bit trashed now though and my mare and her fieldmate are starting to have disagreements. The paddock is a bit tight on space as it was designed for restricted grazing - one lammi prone and one gas colic prone at 11.2hh and 12.2hh. Our very accomodating Y/O has come up with a few solutions to extend/seperate/rotate but unfortunatly non seem to suit my fieldmate **rolleyes**...BUT it is there if we need it and im thankful for that as stabling all winter is rough and i could never go back to it (been there done it). My pony hasn't been out for well over a week now due to lack of grass/fighting, except in hand, ridden and roll in the sand school but shes doing ok apart from been filfthy in the stable and extra cheeky to ride. Roll on spring! Mine will be out 24/7 and if they are still fighting with a bit on the paddock something will need to change but we will cross that bridge as/when.


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## SusieT (14 February 2017)

horses that adapt often 'shut down' rather than adapt.
They are herd animals designed to move.
Exercise doesn't replace herd interaction or freedom to move.
Horses with adequate food and shelter don't demand in - having them out in a very muddy paddock isn't optimla either if its sucking their feet off their legs.
Yards who wish to not 'ruin' their fields should invest in all weather turnout to allow a minimum of 4 hours turnout - or invest in barns or similar to enable group living with space to move. There is simply pretending that horsesdon't have needs and thinking outside the box.
A sand pit or all weather turn out be it gravel at a pinch will go a long way to alleviating boredom and meeting horses needs - those who don't even provide this are not good yard owners and can't use the 'clay' excuse!


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## TheMule (14 February 2017)

If I lived in an area where winter turnout wasn't possible I would keep mine in a small group in a barn. I can't get my head around 22 hours alone in a 12x12 box as being an acceptable way to keep such a large and active herd animal. You wouldn't do it to a dog, it would be abuse.
My little lot are very happy living out in all weathers with an area of hard standing to feed haylage on and a large double field shelter (used solely as a toilet it seems)


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## polly123 (14 February 2017)

Thanks everyone, I will be looking for somewhere else in the spring/summer as I honestly couldn't go through a whole winter without turnout. I 
have always had turnout all year round not just from May to October! I do not understand why livery yards seem to have 20 stables and only 10 acres max of turnout??


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## twiggy2 (14 February 2017)

SusieT said:



			horses that adapt often 'shut down' rather than adapt.
They are herd animals designed to move.
Exercise doesn't replace herd interaction or freedom to move.
Horses with adequate food and shelter don't demand in - having them out in a very muddy paddock isn't optimla either if its sucking their feet off their legs.
Yards who wish to not 'ruin' their fields should invest in all weather turnout to allow a minimum of 4 hours turnout - or invest in barns or similar to enable group living with space to move. There is simply pretending that horsesdon't have needs and thinking outside the box.
A sand pit or all weather turn out be it gravel at a pinch will go a long way to alleviating boredom and meeting horses needs - those who don't even provide this are not good yard owners and can't use the 'clay' excuse!
		
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I agree, I think keeping a horse in a stable for  extended periods of time is no different to keeping a dog in a crate for the same amount if time except a horses digestion suffers more than a dogs


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## jumping.jack_flash (14 February 2017)

So, not easy to 'qoute' when typing on my phone.

But whoever it was that said, perhaps if we rode the horses . .then we may not of needed turn out in the winter , I assume may not have a full time job, mortgage, a house hold to run and dogs and other animals to take care of?

To be clear, 34 horses on a DIY yard, on lock down over that particular wet winter, was NOT Fun , even for a temporary period of 13 weeks. You honestly could not use the indoor school, as we were all in trying to stretch our animals legs . . Riding would of been even more dangerous! . . .

Also, horses are not over grown hamsters . .horse walkers have there place, but grazing and turn out is mentally stimulating . . .

Horses get depressed as well . .

So, NO, I would never move to a yard that has NO WINTER turn out! That's my personal opinion.

Horses are a hobby, and at times yes, It's like having a second job . . But it's not my full time job . .


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## ClaretCarrot (14 February 2017)

I'm sorry but I have to agree with some of the others, a yard should not offer livery if it does not have the space/facilities for year round turnout. Even if a horse is worked twice a day plus on a horsewalker, then the horse is locked in a stable the other 21 or more hours a day. Thats a long bloody time. Imagine being locked in a 3ft x3ft room for 21 hours a day.  (lets face it horses are MUCH bigger than us) thats actually worse than prison as prison cells are bigger relative to human body size.

A sand/woodchip paddock or a hard stand with haynets so horses can have a few hours of freedom should be an absolute minimum.

I'm sorry you are in this situation OP, but I would look elsewhere asap


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## chestnut cob (14 February 2017)

Personally I wouldn't stay on a yard with absolutely zero winter turnout.  I used to be at a yard where the horses were in 24/7 from Sept to April/ May.  If you were lucky they'd get 20 mins in the indoor arena or lunge pen plus any work you did with them.  I had an older, arthritic horse and somehow managed to get lucky that YO allowed him just to come in for a few hours daily and he mostly lived out with some ancient retired horses.  When I bought a new, young horse, I was told "good, this one can stay in like the rest now".  I went away on holiday for 3 weeks, horse on FL, came home to find he hadn't been turned out once so I moved immediately.  He's such a lovely natured, sweet horse and in that 3 weeks he'd started biting and become quite nasty from the frustration of being in and YO not working him as I was paying her to.

I don't have an issue with *restricted* turnout in winter for a period, as long as they get out for a couple of hour's leg stretch plus worked.  I kept him at a yard (after the one mentioned above) which had something like 14 acres for 4-5 horses so winter and summer grazing.  Even in the depths of winter we had plenty of grass cover yet by lunch time, all of the horses (including my supposedly hardy native type) wanted to come in.  During that period of the winter, mine was perfectly happy to go out at 7.30am and come in around midday then be ridden in the afternoon.  He also doesn't mind odd days in here and there but he really doesn't cope well with being in 24/7 for a prolonged period so I've always tried to ensure I'm on a yard which allows him to have at least some turnout.  Of course I do appreciate that sometimes the YO needs to save the ground when the weather is terrible, especially when you're on clay soil, hence a few days in isn't an issue but staying in for the whole winter isn't a situation I'd be happy with.


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## ester (14 February 2017)

sport horse said:



			I love the way everyone thinks their horses love being out in a filthy wet, muddy turnout field in the tipping rain and searing east wind.

I have two mares - one is 26 and the other is retired and in foal. They are the only horses in this yard that go out during the wet winter months. This last week the old mare has managed nearly an hour before coming back to the gate and whinnying to attract attention. If you ignore her she starts to rattle the gate until she is brought in. Today was sunny and she stayed put for 3 hours.  The in foal mare, an ex sport horse, is not much different. They hate being left out too long and I listen to them.
		
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I love the way people think that winter turnout mean filthy wet, muddy with no shelter.........

We are on the somerset levels clay, our paddock doesn't end up filthy wet and muddy and the horses are out every day 7 till dark.

I know plenty of other fields in various locations which are also not filthy wet and muddy with horses out at least during the day because they are correctly managed. I've turned horses (not mine) out in mud soup before -just down the road from current location- and wondered what the point is but discovered that if you manage the land and stock it appropriately it does just fine.


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## Damnation (14 February 2017)

I have been on two yards with no winter turnout.

Up here winter turnout is few and far between as it is soggy clay.

1st yard, horse was fine. They had an indoor, an outdoor and a huge lean to, along with few liveries it was perfect - no arguing over facilities. In the morning she was lunged. In the evening she went into the lean to with her two mates for an hour whilst we did our stable jobs then ridden for up to an hour. She was sane and to be honest, no real hardship and she was out of her stable a good 3hrs a day either being worked or having a roll/play with her mates. On the nights we didn't fancy riding we used to freeschool her and her friend in the huge indoor which they seemed to really enjoy, or I set up some jumps and let her have a play over them (on her own if jumping was involved!)

2nd yard, promised me turnout, and promised an arena was being built. It didn't happen and there were no facilities. Nowhere lit to walk her in the evening, no arena, no functioning horse walker, nothing. She wasn't sane enough to just hack out over the weekend which was the only option. It was a nightmare and I moved as soon as I found somewhere with winter turnout OR an arena to at least get her exercised.

Now at a fab little yard with winter turnout as YO knows the land is pants and isn't too precious about it BUT around here that is few and far between.

I think as long as the yard is set up for no winter turnout you are fine. By set up I mean there is an arena you can exercise in, or a horsewalker, or lit area's that you can take them for grass walks on early morning after work. BUT it is a two way street, you have to be able to give the horse the time it needs out of the box to stay sane.

ETA: Regarding horses being out in the mud, mine would rather be out hock deep in mud (it isn't that muddy at my yard but you see what I mean!) then in her stable, but like humans all horses are different.


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## Asha (14 February 2017)

Horses need turnout. Simple.

I hear the same old justifications time and time again, it just doesn't cut it with me. The basic principle of animal welfare is the 5 freedoms, and a crucial part of this is the freedom to express natural behaviour. Leaving a horse in a stable for a prolonged period of time without turnout, albeit providing ridden exercise doesn't fulfil that.

If you are on clay, put matts down, install land drainage, reduce the number of liveries, do what you need to do.

I'm on clay, we have invested a fair few spoondolies in  land drains, it definitely helps, it doesn't remove the issue completely. But the fields are usable


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## Damnation (14 February 2017)

Asha said:



			If you are on clay, put matts down, install land drainage, reduce the number of liveries, do what you need to do.
		
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I'm with you - horses do need turnout or at least time to socialise, however as someone said earlier in this thread, sometimes you are backed into a corner and you don't have any choice.

BUT the common theme I am finding is that because people won't pay enough livery wise to cover the cost of basic maintenence let alone things like drainage and mats (which are expensive), YO'ers are also stuck between a rock and a hard place. Ontop of land not being cheap to buy, it is a two sided issue.


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## milliepops (14 February 2017)

jumping.jack_flash said:



			So, not easy to 'qoute' when typing on my phone.

But whoever it was that said, perhaps if we rode the horses . .then we may not of needed turn out in the winter , I assume may not have a full time job, mortgage, a house hold to run and dogs and other animals to take care of?

To be clear, 34 horses on a DIY yard, on lock down over that particular wet winter, was NOT Fun , even for a temporary period of 13 weeks. You honestly could not use the indoor school, as we were all in trying to stretch our animals legs . . Riding would of been even more dangerous! . . .

Also, horses are not over grown hamsters . .horse walkers have there place, but grazing and turn out is mentally stimulating . . .

Horses get depressed as well . .

So, NO, I would never move to a yard that has NO WINTER turn out! That's my personal opinion.

Horses are a hobby, and at times yes, It's like having a second job . . But it's not my full time job . .
		
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Making some big assumptions there.  I think the key is to recognise that everyone is different and so are horses.

Personally I wouldn't be on a yard where everyone wanted to turn out in the indoor school, I'd prefer to be in control of my horses when giving them exercise because for me, having several horses in a small enclosed space when they are fresh is a recipe for disaster. So... see, we're all different.

I have a full time job, a house to run, other commitments and 2 horses on DIY and my world revolves around the horses and making sure their need are met. Different again.

There's no need for capitals and shouty posts, for some people the options are limited but that doesn't mean that their horses are miserable or suffering, though it might mean that their approach and their choices in how they run their lives are quite different to yours.  Yes, in an ideal world every yard would have oodles of land and hardly any horses, but we aren't in an ideal world - you have to make the best of it. For some people that means busting a gut to make it work.


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## Goldenstar (14 February 2017)

jumping.jack_flash said:



			Yes, a sacrificed paddock . .or restricted turnout, minimum half days . . . It's just not fair for the horses, or the owners . .. Regardless, It's stressful all round.

I didn't wan to be harsh . .but I WOULD do whatever I can to keep my animal mobile and happy.

As someone has also said . .  Yards are squeezing as many horses in as possible, forgetting about the winter months . .  and then wonder why people get upset when turn out is stopped.

It's just is not good business savy! . .happy horses = happy owners, which = profit and good productivity with excellent clients, who WILL pay more in the long term for an excellent service! . . .
		
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People expect to pay less than £ 10 per  day for DIY round here that's a use of a school includes forage and straw in some places and a nice stable free electricity someone else maintaining the stables and the fences TBH it's nuts .
On clay land you need a huge amount of acres per horse to maintain true year round turnout .
I have just under fifteen acres and five horses we only just manage to maintain the land in a responsible state at this stocking level I could never have horse out 24/7 here unless I went down to two perhaps three horse the place would look a mess and the soil structure would degrade .
We have a winter sacrifice pasture and by this time of year we giving them two to three hours turnout daily I keep my horses in work in winter they are busy and they are perfectly happy in this roultine .
I think it's simply unrealistic to say that all yards should provide a fields all year round people simply will not pay what that would cost .
All weather turnout pens and horse walkers can help in these situations but all this costs money.
OP of course was forced to the situation she is in her horses were sudden homeless and the answer is to work them twice a daY until she finds a better option .
Finding a fee lance groom to go in at lunch time and do something with them might be worth it until spring .
This problem is only going to get worse land pressure is bearing down on livery yards and they are often in prime sites for building as they are close to were people live .
People in ivory towers ought to reflect on how lucky they are and not have a go at those who are less fortunate .


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## ester (14 February 2017)

I think it is only because people have concern about the horses. 
Having been around plenty of DIY yards with no winter turnout and owners that don't remove their horses from the stable during the working week those are the ones that I would be having a go at, not those who are prepared to make the extra effort for those horses. 
It would be a big ethical decision for me to decide to own one if I lived in one of the areas where it really wasn't possible, I suspect it would depend on finances and whether I could be somewhere where all weather turnout options were provided. I was only really felt the 6 hours we got were ok if I was able to exercise the horse later in the day and was why he moved when that wasn't going to be as possible.


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## Asha (14 February 2017)

Damnation said:



			I'm with you - horses do need turnout or at least time to socialise, however as someone said earlier in this thread, sometimes you are backed into a corner and you don't have any choice.

BUT the common theme I am finding is that because people won't pay enough livery wise to cover the cost of basic maintenence let alone things like drainage and mats (which are expensive), YO'ers are also stuck between a rock and a hard place. Ontop of land not being cheap to buy, it is a two sided issue.
		
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I totally agree. When mine where at livery I didn't understand the costs involved in providing a stable /grazing etc etc. Only since having my own yard do I appreciate that £25/week is a drop in the ocean, and not a viable option for a business to make a return while offering adequate facilities.

I cant see things changing.


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## milliepops (14 February 2017)

ester said:



			I think it is only because people have concern about the horses. 
Having been around plenty of DIY yards with no winter turnout and owners that don't remove their horses from the stable during the working week those are the ones that I would be having a go at, not those who are prepared to make the extra effort for those horses. 
It would be a big ethical decision for me to decide to own one if I lived in one of the areas where it really wasn't possible, I suspect it would depend on finances and whether I could be somewhere where all weather turnout options were provided. I was only really felt the 6 hours we got were ok if I was able to exercise the horse later in the day and was why he moved when that wasn't going to be as possible.
		
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I guess it depends how you were 'brought up' horse-wise 

When I moved to livery from just keeping my ponies on a farm, suddenly we had stables and a school - big culture shock - and there was no turnout from October to March. Was the only yard I could get to as a kid, so it was there or give up ponies. The whole yard - mostly hunters, but some hacks, and my pony - was in. It was drummed into me at a young age that it was my responsibility to shift my backside to make sure that my pony got out of the stable as much as possible. so it continues... where we are now, we have half day turnout unless it's really wet and then they stay in, and I still shift my backside to make sure they are worked, without fail.  Pretty much everyone on the yard does the same. 

So it depends on your personal experience doesn't it? We don't really have any horses left to fester in the week so I start from the position that it can be managed quite well even though it wouldn't be my first choice...  Someone who has been on a yard where no one bothered would probably have a different feeling on it.

ETA also probably depends on the horse you have... I wouldn't keep an old retired horse like this, but it seems to work for those in a reasonable degree of work.


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## Damnation (14 February 2017)

Asha said:



			I totally agree. When mine where at livery I didn't understand the costs involved in providing a stable /grazing etc etc. Only since having my own yard do I appreciate that £25/week is a drop in the ocean, and not a viable option for a business to make a return while offering adequate facilities.

I cant see things changing.
		
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Totally agree.

The only solution a YO'er has really is to get more horses in to pay the bills, which in turn overgrazes the land which in turn leads to restricted/no winter turnout and it is a vicious circle.

I know I am so so so lucky to have found the wonderful, rough around the edges, muddy little yard. But then YO'er is lucky in that she rents it off an Estate who deal with all of the maintenence. Our livery literally covers her rent and bills, but even then she makes no money.


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## Nativelover (14 February 2017)

I've not read all the responses so I apologise if I'm repeating what others have said....

I've experienced yards with no turnout, when I moved here 15 years ago, I was absolutely against a no turnout rule. It seemed cruel to me (having been brought up on the belief that horses need to be out every day) and I was shocked when the YO closed the fields, esp when she had told me there's always winter turnout!

It was a struggle but I exercised my horse every day without fail, even after a night shift when all I wanted was to crawl into bed. He was also walked out and hand grazed every day. On my days off this was a 2 hour hand graze!!
I felt huge guilt and to be honest it made me ill, I was at the yard at 5-6.30 in the morning and again from 9pm till about 10.30-11pm. My OH was getting tired of not seeing me much and I was physically and mentally exhausted after 5 months of this. 
So I moved yards to end up in a similar position but now with more travel, all due to YO not being truthful with how much turnout was allowed. 
It seemed to me that these YO were happy to take the money but not put in any land management ( before anyone retaliates I know this isn't all yards ), I'd be happy to pay more but have more turnout in return.
How did my horse cope??? He wasn't the happy chilled out pony I had in the summer but we managed although he was very fresh to ride, he was always requiring attention when I was there, he was very nippy and feed time was very exciting. 
I don't agree with no turnout, but I realise there are many who have no choice. I get angry with responses of "move yards" where to???? Or "you shouldn't have a horse if you can't turn him out" so I'm supposed to sell a horse I adore!!??? You really have to make the best of what you have and try to enrich the horse daily, whilst trying to find an alternative whether that is a different yard or even turning away for the winter.
I've tried the different yard scenario and 4 yards later have turned away for the winter (prompted by a baby) and will hopefully find something suitable before summer.
So OP it is possible to survive a no turnout winter, but it takes time and dedication. Not all horses cope well so you are lucky if you can get away with it, take comfort in knowing there are many in the same boat as you! Good luck in finding alternative yards,


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## milliepops (14 February 2017)

Damnation said:



			Totally agree.

The only solution a YO'er has really is to get more horses in to pay the bills, which in turn overgrazes the land which in turn leads to restricted/no winter turnout and it is a vicious circle.
		
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Yup, so as GS says, there's no sense in berating horse owners who find themselves in this position because it's a combination of factors that have led to it, and realistically it's not what anyone would choose, given a viable alternative.


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## ester (14 February 2017)

Absolutely MP and I totally appreciate what you do to make it work.
I have mostly been exposed to ponies being chucked out in mud soup with no hay because it means they don't need mucking out later (RS)
and people on DIY who only go down once a day and don't exercise their horses for 5 days straight but the fields look nice

Neither I find acceptable or wholly necessary.

I'm never sure when the money thing comes up, do this YOers feel they have to be providing some sort of service to society keeping costs down? While I am sure not everyone would pay more per horse for more turnout/less stocking density etc I do think plenty would.


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## ClareGilby (14 February 2017)

We are lucky, we have winter turnout upto 3pm.  We only have about 7 horses per large field, but even then it has started to get really muddy.  The yard owner has said no turnout at weekends until further notice which isn't too bad as most people go out hacking at the weekends so they get out and about.  I feel very lucky at my yard, they separate the mares and geldings and have small horses and larger ones in separate fields.  It works really well as there doesn't appear to be any kicking and injuries through overcrowding.  We are very blessed.  It is £53 pw though, but I am happy with that for such a nice yard.


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## Goldenstar (14 February 2017)

ester said:



			I think it is only because people have concern about the horses. 
Having been around plenty of DIY yards with no winter turnout and owners that don't remove their horses from the stable during the working week those are the ones that I would be having a go at, not those who are prepared to make the extra effort for those horses. 
It would be a big ethical decision for me to decide to own one if I lived in one of the areas where it really wasn't possible, I suspect it would depend on finances and whether I could be somewhere where all weather turnout options were provided. I was only really felt the 6 hours we got were ok if I was able to exercise the horse later in the day and was why he moved when that wasn't going to be as possible.
		
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It's right to be concerned about the horses .
But it's the owners fault if the horses don't get enough exercise not the yard owners .
It's the owners fault if they take a horse to a yard with limited facilities and then can't get it moving enough because it's winter and it's dark when they are not at work .
It's the owners fault if they expect the YOErs to provide expensive facilities for less than a tenner a day .
It's the owner choice to get a horse and it's their responsibility to give it a good life.
Many of the yards with very restricted turnout could half the number of liverys and increase the costs accordingly and ease the pressure on grazing I wonder what would happen then ?


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## AdorableAlice (14 February 2017)

With Government now giving the go ahead to build tens of thousands of new homes on green belt the prevalence of livery yards with little to no winter turnout will ever be increasing.

Personally I would pack up if my horses could not go out, but that is based on me working full time and being unable to exercise through the winter months not because I am against stabled horses.  If you have the time and facilities it is possible to keep a stabled horse happy, fit and well.  You have to occupy their mind and body to the full.


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## Goldenstar (14 February 2017)

ester said:



			Absolutely MP and I totally appreciate what you do to make it work.
I have mostly been exposed to ponies being chucked out in mud soup with no hay because it means they don't need mucking out later (RS)
and people on DIY who only go down once a day and don't exercise their horses for 5 days straight but the fields look nice

Neither I find acceptable or wholly necessary.

I'm never sure when the money thing comes up, do this YOers feel they have to be providing some sort of service to society keeping costs down? While I am sure not everyone would pay more per horse for more turnout/less stocking density etc I do think plenty would.
		
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I would like to hope so .
DIY should IMO not be less than £70 a week more if there's an indoor and walkers and turnout pens to be paid for .
On yard I know has nice boxes and indoor ( no charge for using the lights ) forage included turnout ( does close or restrict at times it does flood ) its £45 per week it's just mad .


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## jumping.jack_flash (14 February 2017)

Lollipops . .if you had read my previous thread, you would of noted, horses were walked in hand! . .not all let out as a herd in the indoor school! . .

And on another thread . U will notice I paid for a groom to turn my lad out with one of his field mates in the indoor school  at a lunch time, when the hired in groom, cleaned the stable, topped up hay and water.

And, I still will go on . . I would MOVE my horses IF a yard decided no winter turn out on a perm basis! . .

Yards need to consider, what they can and would offer in winter months! . .


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## Goldenstar (14 February 2017)

jumping.jack_flash said:



			Lollipops . .if you had read my previous thread, you would of noted, horses were walked in hand! . .not all let out as a herd in the indoor school! . .

And on another thread . U will notice I paid for a groom to turn my lad out with one of his field mates in the indoor school  at a lunch time, when the hired in groom, cleaned the stable, topped up hay and water.

And, I still will go on . . I would MOVE my horses IF a yard decided no winter turn out on a perm basis! . .

Yards need to consider, what they can and would offer in winter months! . .
		
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But as OP said she lost her grazing suddenly the yard she's on was the only place with space so she has to manage the issue until she can get to some where better .


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## milliepops (14 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			I would like to hope so .
DIY should IMO not be less than £70 a week more if there's an indoor and walkers and turnout pens to be paid for .
.
		
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Yup I think you're probably right there... and if we ever get to that point, that's when I'll have to give it up.





jumping.jack_flash said:



			Yards need to consider, what they can and would offer in winter months! . .
		
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If they are full regardless of whether they can offer turnout or not, then I'd say the yards don't *need* to do anything as people are still keeping their horses there. Do you not see what I'm getting at? It's all very well getting irate about it, but that doesn't change anything.

It's great that you can move to different places, other people might not have the choice, freedom or finances to be able to do that but that doesn't automatically mean that they aren't attending to their horses needs.

FWIW I don't consider hand walking around an indoor school to have much value tbh, I still think it sounds like you'd have had better use of the space and time available by doing ridden exercise, it's possible to have several horses trotting or cantering around each other quite safely and that way they can really work off some energy :wink3: 
....  but we're all different!  you make your choices and leave other people to make theirs


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## paddi22 (14 February 2017)

there was an article recently that said if you replace stable with 'cage' then it makes people reconsider what restricted turnout means. If someone came on here and said they had a dog kept in a crate for 23 hours, but they let it out to run around their sitting room for an hour a day, there would be murder.

I've been an yards with very restricted turnout and i've moved to one much further away and at a higher cost because its important for horses to get out. If it was a scenario where turnout wasn't an option then, much as it would kill me, i don't think i would own a horse if that was my only option.


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## Damnation (14 February 2017)

jumping.jack_flash said:



			Yards need to consider, what they can and would offer in winter months! . .
		
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They do - it's called restricted turnout or no turnout.

Land is expensive, the market dictates that people won't pay the money for YO'ers to be able to even cover maintenence let alone adapt grazing to drain better so they get more horses in just to pay the bills.

When people say "oh just move". Move to where? I live in an area where land is rarely up for sale/rent. Farmers hate horses, they won't rent to you if they know it is for horses. They see horses as dead money and a nuisance that just churn up fields and spread weeds - more hassle than they are worth.

To make things worse, yards are few and far between ranging from a huge Equestrian Centre with restricted turnout and nearly an hours drive from my house to another yard with individual turnout, restricted winter turnout and no summer 24/7 turnout (have to come in at night all year and at that they are lucky to be out til 2-3pm), to the 3rd big yard which only does full livery.

I found my little yard through sheer luck which suits me perfectly.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (14 February 2017)

polly123 said:



			Thanks everyone, I will be looking for somewhere else in the spring/summer as I honestly couldn't go through a whole winter without turnout. I 
have always had turnout all year round not just from May to October! I do not understand why livery yards seem to have 20 stables and only 10 acres max of turnout??
		
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That's obvious surely?  They'd rather have 20 livery payments per week than 10...  Why wouldn't a YO do this? 

It's good business sense and that's what they're running - a business - not a public service for the welfare of peoples horses.  If all the yards in the area are full so the OP goes to the only one with spaces, which happens to have no winter turnout, what does that tell you?  That people will accept it.  From a business point of view if people will accept something and it's bringing in the money then why change it.  I just don't understand why people are so surprised that yards are the way they are.

I read threads like this and think some people live in a parallel universe.  I've never met a single person who thinks their life is set up well for a pet so lets get one, just to provide it with a good home.  People get pets including horses for their own reasons, then keep the animal to the best of their ability using whatever facilities are available.  There's this fluffy notion (in the UK at least) that animals are equal to people, but they're not, it's that simple.  They're sort of slaves really.  And if one species is selfish enough to keep another species as a slave for their own purposes (companionship, hobby, sport) in the first place, why is it so surprising to some that there are people who put their own needs/wants before that of their pets and decide to keep one, even though they can't provide anywhere near the perfect lifestyle for it?  

Maybe someone in government should define in law the perfect lifestyle for each animal species and if someone can't meet that, they're not allowed to keep it as a pet. All the unwanted animals could be culled then. So apart from farming there would be hardly any animals, because most people wouldn't be rich enough to provide animals with the perfect lifestyles, which would probably include employing staff to look after them whilst they were at work or owning fairly large amounts of land.  It would solve a lot of welfare problems and the animals wouldn't care, they'd be dead.  It's only us humans that would care because we wouldn't have our pets any more.  But I don't expect anybody really likes that as a solution, including me.

To answer the OP's question, I survive winter with no turnout by not overfeeding and feeding only forage, ensuring my horses have at least the minimum amount of work they need to stay sane, and having a system for the stable chores that means I never walk anywhere empty handed to cut down on the time it all takes.  A yard close to home with an indoor stables and indoor arena is quite high on my list of must haves too.  It makes all the difference to not be soaking wet and freezing cold every day, and the closer the yard is the easier it is to make multiple visits daily without it taking up half the day.  

Mine are actually in through choice.  I could turn them out in the usual mud-pit of a field that most yards offer, but they'd only want to come in and be hanging round the gate a few hours later. As I'd then spend a lot of time trekking down to the field to wade through the bog by the gate that none of the horses want to walk through, grooming caked on mud off, hosing wet mud off, breathing in all the dust, and (if there was any time left to ride after all that faffing) dealing with the inevitable muddy tack afterwards, where there was eg wet mud on the face that couldn't be cleaned off, I choose to keep them in.  This is so I can get on with enjoying the time I spend with my horses, my 2 favourite things being grooming relatively clean horses and riding.  It saves me time on house work too because of not having to get changed several times a day where handling muddy rugs and horses has left me filthy.  Basically I keep them in full time in winter because it's ultimately quicker and easier for me with less risk of injury to myself or them.  It doesn't bother me that they don't have the perfect life, most people don't have the perfect life either.  My experience is that just like most people, most horses are also happy enough with their lot, even if they are frustrated some of the time at not being able to do what they want.

I think most of the people saying they don't have a bog for a field in winter are people who have their own land.  In my area the land is very wet and I don't know of any livery yards at all which have decent fields in winter.  If I win the Lotto, I'm going to have a large field with good drainage installed, a big barn for when they need to stay in and staff to do all the land/barn maintenance.


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## milliepops (14 February 2017)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			Maybe someone in government should define in law the perfect lifestyle for each animal species and if someone can't meet that, they're not allowed to keep it as a pet. All the unwanted animals could be culled then. So apart from farming there would be hardly any animals, because most people wouldn't be rich enough to provide animals with the perfect lifestyles,
		
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Lol I was thinking about this just the other day.  TBH though I'm not sure there'd be a huge amount of farmed animals either in this utopia - lots of them are kept indoors esp at this time of year for one reason or another... 

Thankfully for those of us with less than perfect lifestyles I think the Govt is a bit busy right now so our horses will escape the cull for now :wink3:


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## DD (14 February 2017)

relevant and interesting thread. what it all amounts to is not enough land for the number of horses on it .I'm not saying out 24/7 is the best it sometimes isn't in driving rain and wind and mud horses need shelter and somewhere dry. that can be a barn or a stable with suitable bedding. being stood in mud with their faces in  a round bale all the time isn't good they might as well be in the dry warm stable. I think we should all assess how we keep our horses and be realistic. if we cant afford to provide decent shelter and turnout of some kind and exercise then we should ask ourselves should we be keeping horses at all?


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## Charlie31 (14 February 2017)

Quite often when there are these sorts of threads it all comes down to money and people not being prepared to pay the true cost of livery. But, and this is a genuine question, have livery yard owners ever discussed this with their liveries to see what they're actually prepared to pay? If so then fine but I do wonder if they just assume people won't pay and so keep their prices down out of fear of people protesting and leaving.

My yard is a typical large yard with too many horses in the fields. We are lucky in that we do get turnout in the winter unless it's really horrible (they were in quite a lot last winter), but as the number of horses on the yard has increased so has the amount of time we have to keep them in for, and the fields do get pretty trashed. I completely understand that there are large overheads associated with running a livery yard, and that the owners have crammed the horses in to make ends meet. However, I would quite cheerfully pay double what I do now if it meant more turnout on fields that were in better condition. I know there are several other people on my yard who feel the same.

Of course there would be those that would grumble and leave but then that would solve the problem of how to significantly reduce the number of horses on the yard! Those people could go elsewhere and pay lower prices for a crappy field and restricted turnout.

Am I the only one who feels this way?


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## Asha (14 February 2017)

Damnation said:



			I'm with you - horses do need turnout or at least time to socialise, however as someone said earlier in this thread, sometimes you are backed into a corner and you don't have any choice.

BUT the common theme I am finding is that because people won't pay enough livery wise to cover the cost of basic maintenence let alone things like drainage and mats (which are expensive), YO'ers are also stuck between a rock and a hard place. Ontop of land not being cheap to buy, it is a two sided issue.
		
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Totally agree with you.

When I was on livery I just didn't get the costs involved. Having my own place now, I can see that £25/week for DIY cannot be a viable option for a business to make a sustainable return. Unless, they compromise on something. 

No idea what the answer is.


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## ester (14 February 2017)

So if yards aren't here for the good of society why are they so cheap?

And why prefer 20 cheap livery cheques at the end of the week over 10 expensive ones? Same amount of income less invoicing to do?

I'm not sure deeming animals equal to people is some sort of fluffy notion either, it has come up a few times on charity threads recently, plenty of non-fluffy people do not think people are in anyway better than animals just because we happen to be people. I find it quite a bizarre notion that people are held in such great esteem tbh!


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## milliepops (14 February 2017)

Personally... I wouldn't pay double what I pay now. for me, what makes DIY work is having 2 horses, I keep 2 on the same routine so they always have company- I never have the problem of being the last horse left out etc and they are settled & happy together. If I had to pay twice the livery then I wouldn't be a livery client I'm afraid.  I've always kept my horses on a shoestring, always been overstretched and I know it only works because there are cheap options out there. I can spare the time in my private life to cope with the shortcomings.

That said.... I do think my YO must be turning a profit, because it's not her land and the horses have to pay to make the yard worth running. There are continuous little improvements being made and the upkeep is good.  I know she raised the prices a few years ago, she's not backward about coming forward and the whole set up is businesslike, I do feel that they would come forward if it was a black hole and say that things needed to change.


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## ester (14 February 2017)

I know that not everyone would but I am wondering where the slight 'stack it high sell it cheap' culture has come from and why we keep being told that it is impossible to make a DIY livery pay because if the yard down the road with exactly the same set up charged less and made no money it would go bust which would leave everyone paying more again.


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## tristar (14 February 2017)

i was on a yard with no turn out when between buying houses, and i thought it was the worst thing ever i have known with horses.

to go to hell and back to get your own place was the only way out,

my horses go out 8   -  6 minimum everyday. excepting heavy rain or snow, i have made large yards of hard hard standing to use when ground is wet, and it is worth every penny.

we know horses need to move constantly for their health, and roll, and the difference in a horse`s work that goes out every day is amazing.

you need to aim high to get there.


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## ihatework (14 February 2017)

I cannot imagine owning a horse on DIY/assisted/part livery if there was no winter turnout. I'm afraid I wouldn't be willing to sacrifice other aspects of my life in order to meet the needs of a horse stabled 24/7. 

That said, in a professional set up with good facilities, I can understand that in a way 24/7 in is almost better than the odd hour here and there out. The expectations are set for the horse and they get used to their routine. Provided that supplies sufficient time out of their stables exercising then I can live with that.

I'm seeing signs of declining turnout, declining livery options. I'm also planning a natural decline in my own equine numbers to the point when I only have one - and a big part of that is down to not wanting to compromise on how I keep them.


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## cobgoblin (14 February 2017)

Can someone explain to me why livery yards are allowed to have more stables ( and horses) than the land can support all year round?....but...if you apply for stables on your own property, you are restricted in the number of stables by the land area and most planning offices are very strict in this.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (14 February 2017)

ester said:



			So if yards aren't here for the good of society why are they so cheap?

And why prefer 20 cheap livery cheques at the end of the week over 10 expensive ones? Same amount of income less invoicing to do?

I'm not sure deeming animals equal to people is some sort of fluffy notion either, it has come up a few times on charity threads recently, plenty of non-fluffy people do not think people are in anyway better than animals just because we happen to be people. I find it quite a bizarre notion that people are held in such great esteem tbh!
		
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I actually don't think people are *better* than animals, but we do rule the planet, so we're in charge and animals aren't equal to us in rights.

As for the rest, I agree with you. My theory is that most YOs aren't really business-minded people and have put very little thought into the whole process at all.  Lots of the smaller yards are only doing it to subsidise the keep of their own horses, not to make a living.  Maybe those ones think if they charge proper prices people will expect a more professional service?  Maybe some of the bigger yards think that too and can't be bothered to provide it?


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## crabbymare (14 February 2017)

I am lucky that mine are at home and retired. not sure that I could go back to livery after this as I can keep them the way they I like and if its very wet I shut the field gate and they are able to mooch around the old hard standing and concrete area and go in a small ancient (but safe) barn for shelter bed and hay so they are not cooped up in stables. when they eventually go I will get my horsey fix by having another lease or loan broodmare abroad as where I would have them has 365/24/7 turnout and very good cctv so I can see the horse as often as I like and its as good as I can afford on a lot less than it would cost here. I think unless people are prepared to compromise they will need to double or more the cost of diy or basic stable and lost profit on part and full livery to find somewhere that allows winter turnout. if those who have horses on restricted turnout cannot get the horse out and worked properly then they need to either get a sharer or freelancer to ride the horse in daylight. there is always going to be compromise and no yard will be perfect for everyone but as long as people do their best and make sure their horse is not in the stable 23 hours a day the horses will adapt and be ok. its the people who spend the winter going up at night and think ooh its cold/wet/snowy/windy so horsey can have a 20 min walk round in hand and go back to its stable again and eat hay then cannot ride at weekends because for some reason horsey is off its head that are the problems.


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## Goldenstar (14 February 2017)

Charlie31 said:



			Quite often when there are these sorts of threads it all comes down to money and people not being prepared to pay the true cost of livery. But, and this is a genuine question, have livery yard owners ever discussed this with their liveries to see what they're actually prepared to pay? If so then fine but I do wonder if they just assume people won't pay and so keep their prices down out of fear of people protesting and leaving.

My yard is a typical large yard with too many horses in the fields. We are lucky in that we do get turnout in the winter unless it's really horrible (they were in quite a lot last winter), but as the number of horses on the yard has increased so has the amount of time we have to keep them in for, and the fields do get pretty trashed. I completely understand that there are large overheads associated with running a livery yard, and that the owners have crammed the horses in to make ends meet. However, I would quite cheerfully pay double what I do now if it meant more turnout on fields that were in better condition. I know there are several other people on my yard who feel the same.

Of course there would be those that would grumble and leave but then that would solve the problem of how to significantly reduce the number of horses on the yard! Those people could go elsewhere and pay lower prices for a crappy field and restricted turnout.

Am I the only one who feels this way?
		
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I know lots of people running livery and they all pretty well say the same the market won't  take DIY being over £50 a week round here .
It's simply not enough to run a Livery on the a proper buisiness footing most of the liverys I know are piggy backing on another buisness like a farm .


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## Charlie31 (14 February 2017)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			I actually don't think people are *better* than animals, but we do rule the planet, so we're in charge and animals aren't equal to us in rights.

As for the rest, I agree with you. My theory is that most YOs aren't really business-minded people and have put very little thought into the whole process at all.  Lots of the smaller yards are only doing it to subsidise the keep of their own horses, not to make a living.  Maybe those ones think if they charge proper prices people will expect a more professional service?  Maybe some of the bigger yards think that too and can't be bothered to provide it?
		
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I think you might have hit the nail on the head. I am quite business minded and I get very frustrated because a lot of things seem really obvious to me and yet the yard continues to be run in a fairly chaotic fashion. Our yard owners are lovely people but they don't tend to think ahead at all and everything gets done in a rather reactive kind of way. Maybe you're right that it's actually easier for them to charge less and provide less of a service than to charge more and provide more. I know if I had a yard it would be bloody expensive but you would get really good service in return. Sadly I can't afford to buy a yard though.

In real terms though I do think livery prices have gone up substantially less than inflation over the last 15-20 years and I wonder what's driving that.


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## tristar (14 February 2017)

cobgoblin, i thought that it  was eu rules that if keeping a horse at grass, ie it is dependent on grass for its main food you had to have 1 acre

however on a livery yard with stables the same does not apply as they are fed supplementary food while they are in.


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## ihatework (14 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			I know lots of people running livery and they all pretty well say the same the market won't  take DIY being over £50 a week round here .
It's simply not enough to run a Livery on the a proper buisiness footing most of the liverys I know are piggy backing on another buisness like a farm .
		
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I think we are nearing crunch time.
At what point will yards close because it's just not worth staying open for livery?
If there are alternative uses for land and buildings who could blame the yard owners?

Interestingly I've been in group email copy of a local yard that I had a horse on retired grazing on recently. It's an agricultural yard, nothing fancy about it, but has all year herd turnout, stabling, storage, floodlit school and a walker. Typical of many of the slightly run down DIY yards all over the country. It cost £35 a week for stable, facilities, hay & straw (of various quality!). Recently they tried to raise it to £45 and met with some backlash from liveries, I think it was eventually settled on £40 now and a further raise once some additional improvements made. The guy that runs it is a nice, laid back and fair guy. I did feel a bit sorry for him with the flack he got. I think he should have called their bluff - there is no where locally that could offer what he does at the price he does!


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## crabbymare (14 February 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			Can someone explain to me why livery yards are allowed to have more stables ( and horses) than the land can support all year round?....but...if you apply for stables on your own property, you are restricted in the number of stables by the land area and most planning offices are very strict in this.
		
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are the livery yards that do not have much grazing all registered? there is some eu rule about having enough land for the horses but I am not sure of the wording. however I did hear something about yards in germany needing to have a certain amount of grazing for the number of stables and horses they keep but am not sure what it is or if its eu law. country law or state law but now I am thinking about it will ask next time I chat to my friend over there. the problem in the uk will be that there are so many unlicensed livery yards that until the local councils have the spare funds and personnel to go round and check random properties at a time thats normally out of work hours (being the time most people would visit their horses) to prove that it is a livery yard and not just a private yard then any law for x amount of land per stable/horse is not going to be enforced and I do not think there will be sufficient people reporting unlicensed livery yards to the councils to make enough of a difference


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## Sugar_and_Spice (14 February 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			Can someone explain to me why livery yards are allowed to have more stables ( and horses) than the land can support all year round?....but...if you apply for stables on your own property, you are restricted in the number of stables by the land area and most planning offices are very strict in this.
		
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My experience of it is that none of the smaller YOs I've known have applied for planning for new stables, they just put them up, live on site, own the land, and presumably figure someone else can sort out the resulting mess when they die.  On the larger yards I've known, all the stables have been converted from buildings which were already there, so maybe that makes a difference with the planning, or maybe they also just did it and didn't inform the planning.  Also if you apply for your own property is it different rules if you're saying it's for private use for your own horses versus if you admit you want to run a business from the property?  Maybe if it's for private use they say you can only have a few stables so they think you'd be less likely to go running an unofficial business from the property without telling them?


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## ljohnsonsj (14 February 2017)

Mine haven't had winter turn out for years. It's unheard of in my area to be fair. They are getting to go out on a weekend on the yard I am at now and they will soon get to go out every other day once it dries up a bit but they always manage as long as they are out their stables for some time each day, they do seem quite happy and content with a big haynet


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## Sugar_and_Spice (14 February 2017)

Charlie31 said:



			I think you might have hit the nail on the head. I am quite business minded and I get very frustrated because a lot of things seem really obvious to me and yet the yard continues to be run in a fairly chaotic fashion. Our yard owners are lovely people but they don't tend to think ahead at all and everything gets done in a rather reactive kind of way. Maybe you're right that it's actually easier for them to charge less and provide less of a service than to charge more and provide more. I know if I had a yard it would be bloody expensive but you would get really good service in return. Sadly I can't afford to buy a yard though.

In real terms though I do think livery prices have gone up substantially less than inflation over the last 15-20 years and I wonder what's driving that.
		
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I share your frustration.  The amount of yards I've left thinking "if only the YO actually *ran* and *maintained* the place, instead of just collecting money and having a few haphazardly enforced rules".

The prices I think is because the cost of everything, in real terms, has gone up.  All except wages, which have stagnated a bit by comparison.  People are feeling the pinch and for a lot of people, especially those who don't want to live on a shoe-string, when money gets tighter the horse is the first thing to go.  Then there's those already living on a shoe-string, who are already compromising on clothes, heating and food and who have nothing else left to give up - they can't afford a sudden raise in livery fees without either reducing the number of horses they own, or giving up altogether.  I think this is what fuels the YOs fear that they'd have no customers if prices went up dramatically.  

Then there's the hassle of trying to raise prices.  People who are very attached to their pets and see them as part of the family, or who have a family tradition of keeping pets for generations, do sometimes seem to see animal ownership as some sort of right and sometimes take it personally if something happens which means they can't afford to keep their pets.  With an attitude of "what am I supposed to do?", as if them not being able to afford to have a pet is somebody/everybody else's problem.  

A lot of YOs won't want to close their yards because their own horses stay there for free and if the yards closed all the costs would then fall to the YO with no money coming in at all to offset those costs.  So they'd risk having to either work full time somewhere else for their income, which they might not want to do, or sell their own horses and give up renting/sell their big detached house and land and go live in a smaller property to make ends meet.  Not an appealing prospect for many, I expect.


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## popsdosh (14 February 2017)

Back in my younger days there was not the number of yards around or the facilities ,if you couldnt afford to keep one you didnt have one . However nowadays a lot of liveries are of a mind that its their right! Even though we lost income initially when we closed the livery yard (35 horses) several years back we have never regretted it as we felt we had lost the ability to do things as we wanted . We found eventually we were a lot better off as other parts of the business could be done properly and increase output after being held back by the liveries always being in the way. There is only a certain number of phone calls on sunday nights you can cope with when somebody has forgotten to order hay that has run out!!!!


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## popsdosh (14 February 2017)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			A lot of YOs won't want to close their yards because their own horses stay there for free and if the yards closed all the costs would then fall to the YO with no money coming in at all to offset those costs.  So they'd risk having to either work full time somewhere else for their income, which they might not want to do, or sell their own horses and give up renting/sell their big detached house and land and go live in a smaller property to make ends meet.  Not an appealing prospect for many, I expect.
		
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What a bizarre statement that shows a real lack of thought!! Most livery yard owners I know are actually missing out because they have their own horses ! Why have your own non paying horse taking up space that should be bringing in income?


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## caitlineloise (14 February 2017)

My mares in at the moment, and she's never been happier. Echoing others, it's all about routine and forage.

We have a walker and she goes on that in the morning and is ridden/lunged/back on walker in the afternoon/evening.

She's miserable if she's out and wants in anyway. 

I'm lucky enough to have a 'day stable' and 'night stable' which certainly helps great deal in the management of it all.

But honestly, she's never been more settled in winter, and is 100% no different in her attitude when worked. The only day she's had the hump is when she was out on a rare nice morning!


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## jumping.jack_flash (14 February 2017)

I wish I was on my lap top. Walking in hand in am indoor school early hours on those winter mornings was the only option. Our yard did not have an over grown hamster wheel, which I believe some people think are Marvellous when you have no turn out! . .

People went to work, those that could afford to hire an outside groom did so and again after work in the winter months . .people did there very best . . 

We were on lock down for 13 weeks, due to wet weather. We had no choice. But for those that are choosing to place their horses in a situation of having no winter turn out on a livery yard . . Well . .IMO, totally Bonkers! . . I personally think it's cruel.

These yards that offer no winter turn out, I wonder who their clients are? ' ladies that lunch'? . .because no DIY person would put up with that, if that was the choice.

Anyhow, they're are all sort of horse owners in this world, those that would go the last mile to ensure their horse was well cared for . .and those that have a 'lock up and leaves attitude.


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## ester (14 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			What a bizarre statement that shows a real lack of thought!! Most livery yard owners I know are actually missing out because they have their own horses ! Why have your own non paying horse taking up space that should be bringing in income?
		
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I didn't read it as bizarre as it resonated with my experience. You have a stable yard with your house, you are going to keep your own horses in it regardless but have capacity to add more = money you wouldn't get otherwise and no extra input apart from to the tax man etc as you will be maintaining the fields/arena etc yourself. 
There is no way my previous YOer would have been doing it if it weren't worth their while (they had 3, 7 liveries) as they were they were very frugal (that is the nice way of putting it), despite being very well off.


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## ester (14 February 2017)

jumping.jack_flash said:



			I wish I was on my lap top. Walking in hand in am indoor school early hours on those winter mornings was the only option. Our yard did not have an over grown hamster wheel, which I believe some people think are Marvellous when you have no turn out! . .

People went to work, those that could afford to hire an outside groom did so and again after work in the winter months . .people did there very best . . 

We were on lock down for 13 weeks, due to wet weather. We had no choice. But for those that are choosing to place their horses in a situation of having no winter turn out on a livery yard . . Well . .IMO, totally Bonkers! . . I personally think it's cruel.

These yards that offer no winter turn out, I wonder who their clients are? ' ladies that lunch'? . .because no DIY person would put up with that, if that was the choice.

Anyhow, they're are all sort of horse owners in this world, those that would go the last mile to ensure their horse was well cared for . .and those that have a 'lock up and leaves attitude.
		
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But MP has said that she is a DIY person, with two, and works so not a lady that lunches so how can you say no DIY person will put up with it when the evidence is here for you to see?

Why on earth were you only able to hand walk in the arena not ride? You say it was the only option, I cannot see how or why?


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## Goldenstar (14 February 2017)

jumping.jack_flash said:



			I wish I was on my lap top. Walking in hand in am indoor school early hours on those winter mornings was the only option. Our yard did not have an over grown hamster wheel, which I believe some people think are Marvellous when you have no turn out! . .

People went to work, those that could afford to hire an outside groom did so and again after work in the winter months . .people did there very best . . 

We were on lock down for 13 weeks, due to wet weather. We had no choice. But for those that are choosing to place their horses in a situation of having no winter turn out on a livery yard . . Well . .IMO, totally Bonkers! . . I personally think it's cruel.

These yards that offer no winter turn out, I wonder who their clients are? ' ladies that lunch'? . .because no DIY person would put up with that, if that was the choice.

Anyhow, they're are all sort of horse owners in this world, those that would go the last mile to ensure their horse was well cared for . .and those that have a 'lock up and leaves attitude.
		
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It's irrelevant that  you had no choice in the matter if you think stabling without turn out is cruel it's cruel it does not matter that you had no choice .


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## Sussexbythesea (14 February 2017)

I'm not sure why people assume that people won't pay more for good all year grazing. It's not like you don't have to buy twice as much bedding and forage when they're in all the time so savings there could be diverted to a higher basic livery fee and as a bonus you don't have to muck out twice a day and don't have an overly fresh or unhappy horse with behavioural problems. 

Most people on this forum seem to want and prioritise good all year at least daily turn out so I don't accept no one will pay for it. Some won't but many will. 

When our yard was trying to squeeze in another livery I suggested that we all pay extra (our rent hasn't gone up for at least 6 years) which would cover that extra livery and some but no they made the paddocks smaller with new post and electric fencing at their own expense.


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## Ben2684 (14 February 2017)

I am lucky especially as I have two horses on DIY; one out 24/7 (due to health reasons) and one in 12 hours/out 12 hours (give or take an hour or two). I was always 100% against no turn out but at the moment the horse that comes in is sluggish to turn out and very keen on coming in. They have plenty of hay for the two of them in the field but come 4:30 the stables horse is wanting to come in (I presume for his dinner) our DIY yard is a little overstocked but we all manage our own fields independently and thankfully my two are pretty sensible. We had six solid days of rain a couple of weeks back and for a few of those days bring in time was rolled back to 2:30/3pm. I dont think I would be happy about continuous lock down but would consider the odd day or two for really bad weather. My stable is a foaling box really so this does help the matter. I think I'd is managed well and the horse is allowed to adapt it could lessen the negative impact. Each to their own, if it works for you and your horse and is the only option who am I to judge??


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## popsdosh (14 February 2017)

ester said:



			I didn't read it as bizarre as it resonated with my experience. You have a stable yard with your house, you are going to keep your own horses in it regardless but have capacity to add more = money you wouldn't get otherwise and no extra input apart from to the tax man etc as you will be maintaining the fields/arena etc yourself. 
There is no way my previous YOer would have been doing it if it weren't worth their while (they had 3, 7 liveries) as they were they were very frugal (that is the nice way of putting it), despite being very well off.
		
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The poster was suggesting that people only do it because they keep their horses for nothing.


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## ester (14 February 2017)

Well yes, they are effectively keeping their horse's for nothing if the income from liveries covers the feed/hay/bedding and upkeep of the land etc. 
If they don't have liveries that money has to come from a different income. 

By it being 'worth their while' keeping 3 horses for free would probably suffice, is it really any different to cash in your pocket if it just isn't cash leaving your pocket?


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## popsdosh (14 February 2017)

Sussexbythesea said:



			I'm not sure why people assume that people won't pay more for good all year grazing. It's not like you don't have to buy twice as much bedding and forage when they're in all the time so savings there could be diverted to a higher basic livery fee and as a bonus you don't have to muck out twice a day and don't have an overly fresh or unhappy horse with behavioural problems. 

Most people on this forum seem to want and prioritise good all year at least daily turn out so I don't accept no one will pay for it. Some won't but many will. 

When our yard was trying to squeeze in another livery I suggested that we all pay extra (our rent hasn't gone up for at least 6 years) which would cover that extra livery and some but no they made the paddocks smaller with new post and electric fencing at their own expense.
		
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Sometimes money isnt everything even if charging 4 x the land is still messed up.

Example people used to come here in the winter because we allowed turnout paddocks get trashed in spring they all move back to cheaper yards that have no damage leaving you with no liveries and messed up fields that cost a fortune to put right.


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## meleeka (14 February 2017)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			Mine are actually in through choice.  I could turn them out in the usual mud-pit of a field that most yards offer, but they'd only want to come in and be hanging round the gate a few hours later. As I'd then spend a lot of time trekking down to the field to wade through the bog by the gate that none of the horses want to walk through, grooming caked on mud off, hosing wet mud off, breathing in all the dust, and (if there was any time left to ride after all that faffing) dealing with the inevitable muddy tack afterwards, where there was eg wet mud on the face that couldn't be cleaned off, I choose to keep them in.  This is so I can get on with enjoying the time I spend with my horses, my 2 favourite things being grooming relatively clean horses and riding.  It saves me time on house work too because of not having to get changed several times a day where handling muddy rugs and horses has left me filthy.  Basically I keep them in full time in winter because it's ultimately quicker and easier for me with less risk of injury to myself or them.  It doesn't bother me that they don't have the perfect life, most people don't have the perfect life either.  My experience is that just like most people, most horses are also happy enough with their lot, even if they are frustrated some of the time at not being able to do what they want.

.
		
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Perhaps you'd be better off with a rocking horse?


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## horsefeed (14 February 2017)

ester said:



			So if yards aren't here for the good of society why are they so cheap?

And why prefer 20 cheap livery cheques at the end of the week over 10 expensive ones? Same amount of income less invoicing to do?

I'm not sure deeming animals equal to people is some sort of fluffy notion either, it has come up a few times on charity threads recently, plenty of non-fluffy people do not think people are in anyway better than animals just because we happen to be people. I find it quite a bizarre notion that people are held in such great esteem tbh!
		
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Having run a yard, I can honestly say its impossible to keep everyone happy all the time, without exceptionally facilities and lots of time to offer part/full livery and then people who pay full livery usually expect the top facilities as well, that unfortunately leads you down the route of cheaper grass/DIY livery options and in this scenario I would rather have 20 pay £20 a week than 10 paying £40, if 1 person with 2 horses doesn't pay (and most YM in cheaper yards experience, I am skint this week will pay you twice next week, only to get a week and 1/2s worth the 2nd week!) it has far less damage to you cash flow. Cash flow in smaller cheaper yards is/can be a big issue! 

That said I had 11 horses on less than 5 acres, I had a sacrifice paddock that was horrendously churned up but good for the youngsters wanting to blow of steam and 2 gravel yard areas. Some horses where yarded 24/7, some had turnout field/yard at least for few hours everyday.


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## horsefeed (14 February 2017)

Sussexbythesea said:



			I'm not sure why people assume that people won't pay more for good all year grazing. It's not like you don't have to buy twice as much bedding and forage when they're in all the time so savings there could be diverted to a higher basic livery fee and as a bonus you don't have to muck out twice a day and don't have an overly fresh or unhappy horse with behavioural problems. 

Most people on this forum seem to want and prioritise good all year at least daily turn out so I don't accept no one will pay for it. Some won't but many will. 

When our yard was trying to squeeze in another livery I suggested that we all pay extra (our rent hasn't gone up for at least 6 years) which would cover that extra livery and some but no they made the paddocks smaller with new post and electric fencing at their own expense.
		
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I ran a yard for a number of years and when I offered to rent additional land so they could have turnout, every single livery complained their rent would go up (was only £25 a month!!) to the extent they threatened to leave if I did! I then refused additional land and a month later the same liveries were complaining about limited grazing! When running a yard you just can't keep everyone happy!


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## paddi22 (14 February 2017)

meleeka said:



			Perhaps you'd be better off with a rocking horse?
		
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Agree with this. 

Do you really think its fair to keep a horse standing in a 12ft x 12ft box, looking out a 3ft x 3ft window, just because you don't like mud? 

I don't expect horses to have the perfect life, but they deserve to have 'some' quality of life. No just be a handy commodity that has to suffer because you don't like mud and it saves you time on housework. I genuinely find this kind of thinking horrific. Horses are herd animals, designed to move around and socialise. Not be kept in a tiny room just so they are handy for you to come up and brush when it suits you.  Do you really think your horse is happy with it's lot? Honestly?


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## paddi22 (14 February 2017)

Would anyone here like to leave in a 6ft x 6ft room all day, just being able to look out the window? How is it different for horses?


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## wingedhorse (14 February 2017)

paddi22 said:



			Agree with this. 

Do you really think its fair to keep a horse standing in a 12ft x 12ft box, looking out a 3ft x 3ft window, just because you don't like mud? 

I don't expect horses to have the perfect life, but they deserve to have 'some' quality of life. No just be a handy commodity that has to suffer because you don't like mud and it saves you time on housework. I genuinely find this kind of thinking horrific. Horses are herd animals, designed to move around and socialise. Not be kept in a tiny room just so they are handy for you to come up and brush when it suits you.  Do you really think your horse is happy with it's lot? Honestly?
		
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I think it's a deliberately provocative post? 

I can relate to horses not wanting to be turned out in deep, shoe sucking, horse injuring, grim mud. And have had times when mine really don't want to be out in field very long. I've had the odd day (when on wet clay) when horses preferred to stay in.

But never for my convenience. Not with a horse that is meant to be moving. 

There are ways round mud other than grooming - snuggy hood turnouts, oiling legs, rugs with neck covers etc.


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## Sussexbythesea (14 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			Sometimes money isnt everything even if charging 4 x the land is still messed up.

Example people used to come here in the winter because we allowed turnout paddocks get trashed in spring they all move back to cheaper yards that have no damage leaving you with no liveries and messed up fields that cost a fortune to put right.
		
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Yes I can see that would not always solve the problem but it was cited as an issue earlier in the thread. 

Maybe it also depends on what else is locally available I know that my yard would have to significantly raise the livery to drive anyone away as it's location and facilities are very good as is the grazing on the whole. A couple of people might struggle but any spaces would soon be filled. People just don't tend to leave though.


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## Sussexbythesea (14 February 2017)

horsefeed said:



			I ran a yard for a number of years and when I offered to rent additional land so they could have turnout, every single livery complained their rent would go up (was only £25 a month!!) to the extent they threatened to leave if I did! I then refused additional land and a month later the same liveries were complaining about limited grazing! When running a yard you just can't keep everyone happy!
		
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Some people are never satisfied I agree. People always moan though doesn't mean they'll follow through. Maybe then you'd have got some appreciative liveries in instead? Again local conditions and competition affect what can realistically be charged.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (14 February 2017)

popsdosh said:



			What a bizarre statement that shows a real lack of thought!! Most livery yard owners I know are actually missing out because they have their own horses ! Why have your own non paying horse taking up space that should be bringing in income?
		
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A lot that I've met aren't doing it for an income, they just want their own horses for free, which they achieve by having liveries to pay the rent for the yard.


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## Goldenstar (14 February 2017)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			A lot that I've met aren't doing it for an income, they just want their own horses for free, which they achieve by having liveries to pay the rent for the yard.
		
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So what ?
Why should people not do this ?
One of the only reasons I can think of for having to share your yard with strangers demanding this and that falling out with each other etc etc is having a nice place to keep your horse that's not costing you a fortune .
I have to say the three livery owners I know best don't do this .


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## ester (14 February 2017)

I don't think S+S suggested that was a problem, just as a perhaps why costs are not what they should be to run a true/proper going concern. 

I too wonder re. the renting extra grazing for increased bills type thing and others whether if it were insisted upon those that said they would leave do, and if they did whether they would be easily replaced by liveries who could see the benefit of having extra grazing.


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## ycbm (14 February 2017)

paddi22 said:



			Would anyone here like to leave in a 6ft x 6ft room all day, just being able to look out the window? How is it different for horses?
		
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The last time I looked my horses were neither reading nor writing War and Peace. I don't think you can compare what a horse will happily tolerate with what a human will.


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## jumping.jack_flash (14 February 2017)

Just ro clarify . .we were walking our horses in hand in the indoor school whilst on lockdown . . At 4.30am in the morning . .monday to Friday for 13 weeks . .because, more than 4 people could walk and stretch their horses legs, then feed breakfast while mucking out . And make it to work , for those of us that have long drives to the office.Then,  those (like my self) that hired an outside groom, used this person to turn the horses out in pairs at lunch time . .whilst the stable was,skipped out, water hay topped up. Our horses at least got 'parole' for a while from their prison.

In the evenings it was a made fight to get in the indoor school to again exercise, stretch legs and repeat the morning or mucking out, fed hay etc.

It was 13 weeks of hell. Stress. And worry that horses were stuck, bored, and stressed from being contained in an unnatural environment.

So to be paying to be in a situation of not having turn out . I repeat . .bonkers . .its different if needs must due to weather. . .but crazy and greedy of YO's if they put animals,in this situation on purpose. Cruel.


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## ester (14 February 2017)

It doesn't really clarify though, there is no reason why more than 4 people couldn't work their horses properly unless your school is particularly small?

For the yards that I know that do it well I don't recognise the situation you are describing at all, and it must make milliepops some sort of superwoman?!


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## cobgoblin (14 February 2017)

paddi22 said:



			Do you really think its fair to keep a horse standing in a 12ft x 12ft box, looking out a 3ft x 3ft window, just because you don't like mud? 

I don't expect horses to have the perfect life, but they deserve to have 'some' quality of life. No just be a handy commodity that has to suffer because you don't like mud and it saves you time on housework. I genuinely find this kind of thinking horrific. Horses are herd animals, designed to move around and socialise. Not be kept in a tiny room just so they are handy for you to come up and brush when it suits you.  Do you really think your horse is happy with it's lot? Honestly?
		
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I agree with this...horses are not meant to be kept in a 12x12 box.
I brought mine in for the night when it was sleeting... Stupidly thinking they would prefer it. Their disgust was apparent the next day, I definitely got the cold shoulder. We are on heavy clay, we have mud, we are on top of a hill and the wind can cut through you.... But they would much rather be out and together.
Coming in for a few hours during the day for a snooze seems to be much preferred to hours of incarceration.


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## popsdosh (14 February 2017)

jumping.jack_flash said:



			Just ro clarify . .we were walking our horses in hand in the indoor school whilst on lockdown . . At 4.30am in the morning . .monday to Friday for 13 weeks . .because, more than 4 people could walk and stretch their horses legs, then feed breakfast while mucking out . And make it to work , for those of us that have long drives to the office.Then,  those (like my self) that hired an outside groom, used this person to turn the horses out in pairs at lunch time . .whilst the stable was,skipped out, water hay topped up. Our horses at least got 'parole' for a while from their prison.

In the evenings it was a made fight to get in the indoor school to again exercise, stretch legs and repeat the morning or mucking out, fed hay etc.

It was 13 weeks of hell. Stress. And worry that horses were stuck, bored, and stressed from being contained in an unnatural environment.

So to be paying to be in a situation of not having turn out . I repeat . .bonkers . .its different if needs must due to weather. . .but crazy and greedy of YO's if they put animals,in this situation on purpose. Cruel.
		
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Surely you have a free choice why not exercise it. YOs make the rules you dont have to agree . many horses cope very well with no turnout at all a good example being army horses in London. Are you sure you are not mixing up turnout with their need for exercise and what suits your lifestyle.


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## jumping.jack_flash (14 February 2017)

OMG, are you for real? . .

Could the 35 DIY people all be in an indoor school with a mix or competition bred animals, ponies, mares, oldies . .all walking around together, and all owners making it to work on time!.

I'm glad I was on a yard with sensible caring owners, where we agreed slots to get put horses through the 13 weeks of lock down.

I was trying to explain, when put in a situation of HAVING to keep your animal in (die to that bad year of weather), to read a thread that people are forced to keep their animals in for x months . .  I feel this is cruelty to the animal and owner! . . . 

And yes, some people left the yard for those 13 weeks of hell. Done put a plan together to prep for another year by renting local small paddocks . .some that had the land, took the horses hone . .yet some like me, went above and beyond to keep the animals brain ticking over by hired help, while earning my living to pay bills etc.


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## nikkimariet (14 February 2017)

Horses aren't meant to be ridden or kept as pets, they all adapt to what we want in some respect?...

OP, I think your horse will be fine.


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## thatsmygirl (14 February 2017)

I have all year turnout, I have my field and can do as I please with it, every summer it comes back with no issues. Mine are out 24/7 for about 10 months but do come in over night in Jan/Feb normally. 
I personally couldn't stable them all winter, it's not fair on any horse in my mind. Even the horses stabled over night show signs off stress, the ones in the fields are chilled and seem so relaxed. 
Personally I would look for somewhere else but that's just my view on my beliefs


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## Sugar_and_Spice (14 February 2017)

paddi22 said:



			Agree with this. 

Do you really think its fair to keep a horse standing in a 12ft x 12ft box, looking out a 3ft x 3ft window, just because you don't like mud? 

I don't expect horses to have the perfect life, but they deserve to have 'some' quality of life. No just be a handy commodity that has to suffer because you don't like mud and it saves you time on housework. I genuinely find this kind of thinking horrific. Horses are herd animals, designed to move around and socialise. Not be kept in a tiny room just so they are handy for you to come up and brush when it suits you.  Do you really think your horse is happy with it's lot? Honestly?
		
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No, I wouldn't be better off with a rocking horse, that's ridiculous.  You and meleeka might prefer that I didn't own horses, but I only care about whether my horses and myself are happy, not whether other people are happy with my decisions.  

Yes mine are happy.  They'd be happier if they got to go out into a decent field each day, but they don't actually want to be out in the sea of mud after the first 1/2hr, where socialising consists of various other hungry grumpy horses who get left out from 8am to 6pm whilst their owners work, chasing them and biting them, and all the bickering round the gate and threats to kick because the boss horse wants to come in before mine etc.  They're definitely not miserable and actually object to being turned out 24/7 in summer, preferring to come in either during the day or at night (they don't seem bothered which it is).  

They do have quite a lot of quality of life and aren't suffering becuse of my choice to keep them out of the mud.  Do I think it's fair? Yes totally.  I don't pay several thousand pounds a year to work my fingers to the bone without getting any fun out of the situation.  They don't pay for their own keep, I do.  It's not unfair of me to make some decisions for my own wellbeing and expect them to put up with it.  As I said, they're not suffering.


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## ester (14 February 2017)

JJF OMG yes (I felt I was lacking OMGs) I am not a bot.

that yard sounds like a complete nightmare, where must you be to have had 13 weeks of unseasonably bad weather? You seem very martyrish about the whole situation and don't seem to realise that not all yards with no winter turnout - which essentially is what your situation was if it were 13 weeks function- cope quite so badly as yours seemed to.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (14 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			So what ?
Why should people not do this ?
One of the only reasons I can think of for having to share your yard with strangers demanding this and that falling out with each other etc etc is having a nice place to keep your horse that's not costing you a fortune .
I have to say the three livery owners I know best don't do this .
		
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I never said people shouldn't do this.  I have no problem with it.  I just said I think it's a reason why some YOs don't want to put their prices up, because they're afraid (rightly or wrongly) that their liveries might leave and they won't be able to make ends meet.  

I was responding to the person who asked why YOs don't put their prices up, with my ideas about why some don't - ie they don't want to take the risk of possibly having to drastically alter their lives if putting the prices up doesn't work out for them.  Someone else then said that YOs with their own horses are losing income because those stables could be filled with fee paying customers, which is true, they could.  But if a YOs main reason for having the yard in the first place is to keep their own horses for free, not having to pay livery/feed/bedding/hay costs themselves, then how does filling every one of their vacancies with customers horses help them?  It doesn't, because it leaves no room for their own.

FWIW I do think that any yard thinking of closing because they're not making enough money from it should just put their prices up and see what happens.  I do think there are a lot of people out there whose first criteria isn't how cheap the yard is, but what the facilities/services/setup is like.  I moved mine from a cheap as chips yard 2miles from home to one that charged double and was 15miles away, because I thought the yard would better suit my horses, one of whom wasn't happy on the first yard.  A friend of mine moved her horse 20 miles away to find a suitable yard, then moved house to make the yard more easy to access.  I don't necessarily think YOs are right to be afraid of putting prices up, I can just understand why some might be.


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## Tyssandi (14 February 2017)

polly123 said:



			Hi, I have just moved onto a livery yard that does not allow winter turnout and am finding it difficult for my horse and myself adjusting. Any suggestions to make life easier for us both would be greatly appreciated. (BTW I had no choice but to move to the yard as we lost our grazing and this was only yard with spaces.)
		
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why is it restricted   I wonder???

 too many horses?   bad drainage?

There is a yard near us that will not allow horses out if icy or snowy or muddy and the horses stay in up to 2 weeks.  Another allowed mares in am and geldings in the pm   so horses paid for part livery are in the box most of the time, One livery came here as she was fed up with this routine.

Personally  unless you are on clay or bad drainage, one of my pet hates is not being allowed to turn your horses out,  very poor excuse if the Y/O is not managing the land so this is restricted.

_We have NEVER restricted grazing (unless lami) and never will.   Horses need to be out and mooching, and not cooped up for hours  and hours eating and not moving 

We have more horses to land but they are part and diy so no 24 hr grazing so the land copes._


This is poor management  IMB


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## paddi22 (14 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			The last time I looked my horses were neither reading nor writing War and Peace. I don't think you can compare what a horse will happily tolerate with what a human will.
		
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i don't think they DO happily tolerate it tho. I think they are stoic animals who just cope with whatever situation they are in. It's not healthy for them physically, mentally or socially in any way. They have limited stimulation, limited movement and no chance to play/interact.  Same as a dog in a crate. There is very little difference.  

When mine are up at the house in the small winter trash paddock outside the stables, they mooch around, canter, buck, kick puddles, root through hedges, pick different hay spots, choose shelter or sun when they like, groom and play with eachother. It's not an ideal environment compared to an ideal 30acre field, but they have interaction, stimulation, different environments, choice of feeding places, watering places. they get to make decisions and choices, look different directions, interact.  In a 12ft by 12ft stable, they look out one gap at the same view, stand at one spot or the same food all day, and look at the four same walls. It's not a suitable environment for 23 hours for an intelligent animal


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## sav123 (14 February 2017)

Just out of interest, have any of those whinging about lack of/restricted turnout, horrendously muddy fields, etc, etc, stopped to consider how different the winters are now compared to even a few years ago? That the last few winters have been so much wetter and milder, not cold and dry? 

I'm in the south east and have been on the same yard for several years. When I first moved to the yard, it was possible to poo-pick the fields pretty much all year round. For the last few years, once the rain starts, it's impossible to get a barrow round the field. I'm in wellies for the whole winter, previously it was possible to go back to short boots because the ground would dry up after autumn.

The horses here go out every day and it is accepted that the fields will be trashed, but they do seem to recover quite well. We are fortunate that the fields are sloped, so the majority of the field isn't too bad, but the gate areas are rather grim. They are out from about 8am for as long as they want to be - generally until around 3-3-30. During one of the very wet winters a few years ago, they were coming in by 12.30 - their choice. Personally, I'd rather my horse was standing in a stable eating hay having been out for a few hours, than standing around in mud and miserable, just so I could say she's out all day. We don't feed hay in the fields - it would be quite a mission to get it out there and too much gets wasted by being trashed in the mud. Some of us would be prepared to pay extra to cover the cost of giving hay in the fields but others won't so it's not viable.

I think the YOs/YMs are now in a no-win situation. Turn out all year and liveries moan about trashed fields. Restrict turnout in winter and liveries moan about their horses not getting out. 

Land is now at a premium. As someone pointed out earlier, a lot of green belt land is now being considered for development. Have to say, having worked on yards and seen how much work goes in for how little reward, I wouldn't blame any yard owners for cashing in!


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## Tyssandi (14 February 2017)

sav123 said:



			Just out of interest, have any of those whinging about lack of/restricted turnout, horrendously muddy fields, etc, etc, stopped to consider how different the winters are now compared to even a few years ago? That the last few winters have been so much wetter and milder, not cold and dry? 

I'm in the south east and have been on the same yard for several years. When I first moved to the yard, it was possible to poo-pick the fields pretty much all year round. For the last few years, once the rain starts, it's impossible to get a barrow round the field. I'm in wellies for the whole winter, previously it was possible to go back to short boots because the ground would dry up after autumn.

The horses here go out every day and it is accepted that the fields will be trashed, but they do seem to recover quite well. We are fortunate that the fields are sloped, so the majority of the field isn't too bad, but the gate areas are rather grim. They are out from about 8am for as long as they want to be - generally until around 3-3-30. During one of the very wet winters a few years ago, they were coming in by 12.30 - their choice. Personally, I'd rather my horse was standing in a stable eating hay having been out for a few hours, than standing around in mud and miserable, just so I could say she's out all day. We don't feed hay in the fields - it would be quite a mission to get it out there and too much gets wasted by being trashed in the mud. Some of us would be prepared to pay extra to cover the cost of giving hay in the fields but others won't so it's not viable.

I think the YOs/YMs are now in a no-win situation. Turn out all year and liveries moan about trashed fields. Restrict turnout in winter and liveries moan about their horses not getting out. 

Land is now at a premium. As someone pointed out earlier, a lot of green belt land is now being considered for development. Have to say, having worked on yards and seen how much work goes in for how little reward, I wouldn't blame any yard owners for cashing in!
		
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I would not cash in.    If we did not open the doors to every person outside England  the problem would not be as big as it is.


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## Achinghips (14 February 2017)

TYSSANDI said:



			I would not cash in.    If we did not open the doors to every person outside England  the problem would not be as big as it is.
		
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I would, in fact, I'm looking forward to it!


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## Gingerwitch (15 February 2017)

I used to think that my horses were happy in there "winter" routine - being kept off the grass when wet, icy or snowy - yes they appeared happy - it was hard work for me - keeping excercised in the afternoon - i was too far to go twice a day - I just hoped for a dry day and winter to end.  I moved these horses two weeks ago - they have been out every day - howling wind and rain, fresh fall snow, and wet ground - I simply cannot tell you how different the demeanour of these horses is.  They are so much more alive but relaxed at the same time - if that makes sense - they would have huge smiles on their faces if they could. Yes they are only going out from 8am until 3pm - but to them it must be heaven.

Looking back I cannot believe i did 3 winters on restricted turnout - it did not sit well with me, and i tried to find somewhere else in the area - to be honest the yard i was at was one of the better ones for turn out - others shut fields from Oct to March.

My question is - this was a BHS Approved livery yard - why ?? - to me it is not acceptable for the BHS to approve these yards - it gives a false impression - and the next generation of horse keeper is  now saying "well its a BHS approved yard so it must be ok"


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## meleeka (15 February 2017)

I do think a lot of problems are created by not giving hay in the field. These horses that want to come in are probably hungry. Why is hay not provided? Is it another case of ruining the precious grass? Or because they might fight?


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## jumping.jack_flash (15 February 2017)

And my last comment on this thread. . . .

I wonder IF it's only the livery yards that restrict the winter turn out?

As . . .

I do not see DIY yards trying to in force such a rule . . . 

Hence . .

Different opinions, as two different sets of owners? ( although, im now on a livery yard, but if they stopped turn out, id move to a turn out yard . .even if having to go back to DIY and my 4.30am starts!).


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## Goldenstar (15 February 2017)

meleeka said:



			I do think a lot of problems are created by not giving hay in the field. These horses that want to come in are probably hungry. Why is hay not provided? Is it another case of ruining the precious grass? Or because they might fight?
		
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I not a fan of giving hay in the field firstly it's dangerous and that's a problem if you have horses that belong to more than one person and secondly ideally horses need to be moving when they having their turnout not standing eating hay .


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## meleeka (15 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			I not a fan of giving hay in the field firstly it's dangerous and that's a problem if you have horses that belong to more than one person and secondly ideally horses need to be moving when they having their turnout not standing eating hay .
		
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Why is it dangerous?


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## chocolategirl (15 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			I not a fan of giving hay in the field firstly it's dangerous and that's a problem if you have horses that belong to more than one person and secondly ideally horses need to be moving when they having their turnout not standing eating hay .
		
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We feed hay in the paddocks every winter once the grass has gone and in over 20 years not had any issues. If it's done right it can work very well and ensures horses are happier staying out if they have something to eat. I would much rather see horses out in a muddy paddock, with hay to munch on, than 'imprisoned' in their cells for 23 hours a day. This is just how I do things and I know it's not everyone's way.


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## ycbm (15 February 2017)

paddi22 said:



			i don't think they DO happily tolerate it tho. I think they are stoic animals who just cope with whatever situation they are in. It's not healthy for them physically, mentally or socially in any way. They have limited stimulation, limited movement and no chance to play/interact.  Same as a dog in a crate. There is very little difference.
		
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I don't believe that you can compare horses with humans or dogs. When a dog is taken for a walk off lead it runs twenty times as far as the owner walks, backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards. If you took a horse for a walk off a lead it would stop at the first decent piece of green stuff and stay there. The comparison with a dog in a crate doesn't work for me any more than the comparison with a human.

Your alternative option if you are not prepared to see horses stabled full time is that those horses would not be alive, since there is no room for them all elsewhere.  I think if you gave those horses the option, they would choose to be alive with proper exercise rather than not.


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## milliepops (15 February 2017)

jumping.jack_flash said:



			And my last comment on this thread. . . .

I wonder IF it's only the livery yards that restrict the winter turn out?

As . . .

I do not see DIY yards trying to in force such a rule . . . 

Hence . .

Different opinions, as two different sets of owners? ( although, im now on a livery yard, but if they stopped turn out, id move to a turn out yard . .even if having to go back to DIY and my 4.30am starts!).
		
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Bit confused by this, DIY yards are livery yards?  I've only ever been on DIY yards and have had either restricted or no turnout as well as year round t/o over the years.



ycbm said:



			I don't believe that you can compare horses with humans or dogs. When a dog is taken for a walk off lead it runs twenty times as far as the owner walks, backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards. If you took a horse for a walk off a lead it would stop at the first decent piece of green stuff and stay there. The comparison with a dog in a crate doesn't work for me any more than the comparison with a human.

Your alternative option if you are not prepared to see horses stabled full time is that those horses would not be alive, since there is no room for them all elsewhere.  I think if you gave those horses the option, they would choose to be alive with proper exercise rather than not.
		
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While obviously preferring to have daily turnout as an option, I agree with this ^^
The instinct of a horse as a herbivore prey animal is not driving it to expend energy needlessly, they would naturally preserve precious energy and basically stand about eating, wherever they were. Yes, it's better for their bodies if they can amble about at the same time, but I rarely see mine scooting around the paddock unless frightened by something, or as a contagious effect from another one kicking off at catching in time.  

(this is related to the assertion that cold horses will move about to warm up, which I find a bit odd since (a) I never see it - mine hunch down against the weather and (b) why would a cold body waste calories moving?)

For mine,what gives them the contented ear-flopping expression is feeling safe, having something to eat and a mate that they can see and touch if they wish to.  They can do that inside or outside, and I can step in to make sure their bodies are exercised.


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## meleeka (15 February 2017)

milliepops said:



			Bit confused by this, DIY yards are livery yards?  I've only ever been on DIY yards and have had either restricted or no turnout as well as year round t/o over the years.



While obviously preferring to have daily turnout as an option, I agree with this ^^
The instinct of a horse as a herbivore prey animal is not driving it to expend energy needlessly, they would naturally preserve precious energy and basically stand about eating, wherever they were. Yes, it's better for their bodies if they can amble about at the same time, but I rarely see mine scooting around the paddock unless frightened by something, or as a contagious effect from another one kicking off at catching in time.  

(this is related to the assertion that cold horses will move about to warm up, which I find a bit odd since (a) I never see it - mine hunch down against the weather and (b) why would a cold body waste calories moving?)

For mine,what gives them the contented ear-flopping expression is feeling safe, having something to eat and a mate that they can see and touch if they wish to.  They can do that inside or outside, and I can step in to make sure their bodies are exercised.
		
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The difference with being turned out is that they can choose if they want to have a mooch or not. Mine might have a little trot round or have a good roll or whatever, but they get to choose, especially when they want to perform manoeuvres that really wouldn't be tolerated either in hand or underbssddle. I think even my greedy cob would eventually get bored if all he had to do for 23 hours was eat hay from a haynet.


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## ester (15 February 2017)

jumping.jack_flash said:



			And my last comment on this thread. . . .

I wonder IF it's only the livery yards that restrict the winter turn out?

As . . .

I do not see DIY yards trying to in force such a rule . . . 

Hence . .

Different opinions, as two different sets of owners? ( although, im now on a livery yard, but if they stopped turn out, id move to a turn out yard . .even if having to go back to DIY and my 4.30am starts!).
		
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You make no sense, several of us have commented about DIY livery yards with restricted/no turnout so where are you not seeing DIY yards trying to enforce such a rule?


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## Mabelthefoal (15 February 2017)

We are on a diy yard. We have a 'winter' field which is trashed each year. We are on boggy land so it gets revolting very quickly so to save our twos legs they are kept in Friday night, sat, sun, Mon ( turned out for the day if it is sunny or the mud has dried up) and then back out tues morning until Friday night. They get in hand exercise and lots of attention on the in days. It might sound odd but due to the shift patterns we work it means tues eve, weds day, Thursday day and Friday morning they are out and then in over the weekend. They seem to like the routine and we avoid mud fever becoming a massive issue or boredom from being in causing problems. I don't really like keeping them in as I'm all for horses being out as much as possible but this works for us. Having said all that we are lucky we have the choice to decide whether we turnout or not. Lots don't have that option. If I had to keep in with very little turn out I would exercise ridden in the morning and in hand In the eve if I could. Lots of interesting things in the stable and lots of attention but again, life isn't always that simple.


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## ljohnsonsj (15 February 2017)

milliepops said:



			Bit confused by this, DIY yards are livery yards?  I've only ever been on DIY yards and have had either restricted or no turnout as well as year round t/o over the years.



While obviously preferring to have daily turnout as an option, I agree with this ^^
The instinct of a horse as a herbivore prey animal is not driving it to expend energy needlessly, they would naturally preserve precious energy and basically stand about eating, wherever they were. Yes, it's better for their bodies if they can amble about at the same time, but I rarely see mine scooting around the paddock unless frightened by something, or as a contagious effect from another one kicking off at catching in time.  

(this is related to the assertion that cold horses will move about to warm up, which I find a bit odd since (a) I never see it - mine hunch down against the weather and (b) why would a cold body waste calories moving?)

For mine,what gives them the contented ear-flopping expression is feeling safe, having something to eat and a mate that they can see and touch if they wish to.  They can do that inside or outside, and I can step in to make sure their bodies are exercised.
		
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Here here. If I put my horses out atm, they will run around cause all sorts of havoc and want to come in within 10mins. I know this as they get to go out on weekends ATM and are ready for in after a roll and a hour eating grass. On the flip side why would I turn my horse out in the wet sloppy mud when I know it will increase chance of injury significantly? I'd rather let them have 10 mins on the lunge before I ride to rid of excess energy where I can attempt to control the situation.. I don't know if that makes me a good or bad owner but it's how I'd rather keep it.


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## Damnation (15 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			I not a fan of giving hay in the field firstly it's dangerous and that's a problem if you have horses that belong to more than one person and secondly ideally horses need to be moving when they having their turnout not standing eating hay .
		
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We have a round feeder, the cost is split per horse so if there are 5 horses out, the cost of the hay is split 5 ways even if one person owns 3 of those horses. Not one horse this winter has come in with bite of kick marks. They seem to get on very well.

YO Pays for the hay over the month, tells us how many bales were used and how many horses were out. One livery did try and get out of it saying her horse doesn't eat hay but that was given short shrift.

The thing is, winter turnout is a contentious issue. I personally would never keep a horse in for my own hatred of mud, but that is me. If you can ensure your horse is happy then go for it. There is no point arguing the case as people know how they like to keep their horses and as long as they have enough stimulation, exercise, forage and a clean area then there are much worse fates for a horse.

Personally, my own horse hates being in. She has been the same with me for 6 years and the same with her previous home of nearly 3. For both of our sanity she goes out at about 8am, she is never stood at the gate desperate to come in despite being on muddy clay. 

When YO brings the others in at about 4pm, mine and her bestie never come near the gate with the others and don't come in until nearly 7pm. They only come up to the gate at about 6ish when they hear my car. In my eyes that means that for me and my horse it is working, she is happy and I am happy.

I have looked after horses who were more than happy to be in. I used to ride a cob who in summer time got 1 day off a week in the big field with the others but then the rest of the time he was in a starvation paddock with hay and a friend overnight and stabled all day. He just didn't care as he had food infront of him.

There are so many variables right down to your horses personality, the yard you are on, the condition of the ground etc.


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## Tyssandi (15 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			I not a fan of giving hay in the field firstly it's dangerous and that's a problem if you have horses that belong to more than one person and secondly ideally horses need to be moving when they having their turnout not standing eating hay .
		
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^ this   also the hay makes a mess, and you get big deep soggy mess round the hay so horses have to stand in deep mud,  some bullying round the hay  and the list goes on.  We will not hay in the fields for theses reasons unless in the round pen for  injury.

Now if I was doing grass livery  I would   feed hay 3 times a day so 1 or 2 sections  each horse and spread them over the field so the horses have to walk between the sections and there would be less bullying and less mess as they would hoover up the sections better  than overloading the amount of hay so much waste.  Also get good quality so the horses want to finish it and not leave any


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## cobgoblin (15 February 2017)

I'm finding it a bit disturbing that people are now becoming used to...and even justifying the stabling of horses all winter.  How long before everyone defends horses being just stabled all the time with no turnout at all?

A sign of the future? Or just poor thought processes that will lead to the worst becoming reality?


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## paddi22 (15 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			I don't believe that you can compare horses with humans or dogs. When a dog is taken for a walk off lead it runs twenty times as far as the owner walks, backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards. If you took a horse for a walk off a lead it would stop at the first decent piece of green stuff and stay there. The comparison with a dog in a crate doesn't work for me any more than the comparison with a human.

Your alternative option if you are not prepared to see horses stabled full time is that those horses would not be alive, since there is no room for them all elsewhere.  I think if you gave those horses the option, they would choose to be alive with proper exercise rather than not.
		
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i completely agree with you about proper exercise. 99% of livery horses are doing very light work. I would have no issue with horses being stabled if they were properly worked, but most people don't. A half hour schooling session or hack, is not sufficient work.

I kind of disagree about the dogs off the lead point, but i do see your point. But when i let the horses into the field, they definitely have a hooley and a gallop round, they don't potter off and graze immediately. And they spend a lot of time play fighting, grooming etc, not just grazing. And even if they are grazing, they are moving round, making decisions about what to eat and avoid. Not just standing stationery eating hay. A sentient intelligent animal should not be jailed for 23 hours a day because humans cannot provide a suitable enriching environment. If it was a choice between that and not having a horse then i'd just not have a horse. 

the winters are muddier and warmer now. We have all been on moaning about the same winter issues for years now and it IS time yards found solutions. We stuck in a cheap and cheerful all-weather that cost very little, its not perfect, but they can chase, roll, play etc. They have a choice to go in and out of the stables (which have big beds, hay, toys etc) and they all choose to be outside about 80% of the time, even in rain, wind etc. So I know they don't want to be locked inside.


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## Mabelthefoal (15 February 2017)

I hope not cob goblin. I think most people would prefer to have horses out 24-7 if they could. There's nothing I like more than watching mine play in the field ( my foal does a lot of imaginary grand nationals with our poor other horse being forced to join in &#55357;&#56832. Our routine seems to work for them but if it didn't we wouldn't keep them in. In spring/ summer up to about December they stay out 24-7 only coming in for work and feed or if they need time out of flies/ sun. Sometimes I do have to turn away and cover my eyes when they're playing though! Mabel particularly likes skidding stops in deep mud and playing bambi on ice.. Arghh!


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## Goldenstar (15 February 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			I'm finding it a bit disturbing that people are now becoming used to...and even justifying the stabling of horses all winter.  How long before everyone defends horses being just stabled all the time with no turnout at all?

A sign of the future? Or just poor thought processes that will lead to the worst becoming reality?
		
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Only one person on a whole long thread has said they keep their horse in for what I considered a spurious reason .
For me there another huge issue that's just been touched on and that's work .
It's clear that some people think that turning out all day in what wil often be small paddocks is all a horse needs that's just not true to be in optimal health horses need work they are designed to exercise a lot and even with paddocks available every day they are not going to be doing enough for their health to be optimal .
That's why we see so many fat lame horse about .
Turnout in the sort of size fields the majority of places provide give horse fresh air and play but the exercise has to provided by the human .


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## SEL (15 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			Only one person on a whole long thread has said they keep their horse in for what I considered a spurious reason .
For me there another huge issue that's just been touched on and that's work .
It's clear that some people think that turning out all day in what wil often be small paddocks is all a horse needs that's just not true to be in optimal health horses need work they are designed to exercise a lot and even with paddocks available every day they are not going to be doing enough for their health to be optimal .
That's why we see so many fat lame horse about .
Turnout in the sort of size fields the majority of places provide give horse fresh air and play but the exercise has to provided by the human .
		
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And this is the exact reason I visit many livery yards with apparently much better facilities than the one I'm on - and leave disappointed.

One of my horses is arthritic and pretty much retired. Being in 24:7 over winter would be the end of him and some yard's view of individual turnout is a field not much bigger than my tiny back garden. Even one of the retirement yards had horses in a large barn over winter - I just couldn't see him getting the movement his old joints need.

In order to have turnout for both mine I have to walk 1/4 mile in each direction through heavy mud. It is giving me thighs like a rugby player and I've lost 1/2 stone since Xmas! Other liveries could use the same field but choose not to get up at the crack of dawn to haul themselves & their horses up & down the track - so their horses get restricted turnout in the winter field near the yard. My 2 get 8 acres of well drained, slightly sloping field which they can mooch around happily. It gets the full force of any nasty weather, but they have a hedge and plenty of blubber.


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## milliepops (15 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			Turnout in the sort of size fields the majority of places provide give horse fresh air and play but the exercise has to provided by the human .
		
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quite!  Wouldn't it be nice if every yard could offer tens of acres of turnout for each horse.... Never mind £10 a day, we're probably closer to £50! 



cobgoblin said:



			I'm finding it a bit disturbing that people are now becoming used to...and even justifying the stabling of horses all winter.  How long before everyone defends horses being just stabled all the time with no turnout at all?

A sign of the future? Or just poor thought processes that will lead to the worst becoming reality?
		
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Horses have been stabled for human convenience for decades. (centuries?).  I don't think this is a new thing, when I was on a yard with zero turnout from October to March this was 20 years ago.  The neighbouring yards within hacking distance were on the same regime.

FWIW I think it's going the other way. Time was, all the top competition horses were stabled all the time but now you have top riders saying that t/o is important for their horses etc. 

The problem for the mere mortal livery is in the practicality of that, when the weather scuppers all your plans.



paddi22 said:



			i completely agree with you about proper exercise. 99% of livery horses are doing very light work. I would have no issue with horses being stabled if they were properly worked, but most people don't. A half hour schooling session or hack, is not sufficient work.

I kind of disagree about the dogs off the lead point, but i do see your point. But when i let the horses into the field, they definitely have a hooley and a gallop round, they don't potter off and graze immediately. And they spend a lot of time play fighting, grooming etc, not just grazing. And even if they are grazing, they are moving round, making decisions about what to eat and avoid. Not just standing stationery eating hay. A sentient intelligent animal should not be jailed for 23 hours a day because humans cannot provide a suitable enriching environment. If it was a choice between that and not having a horse then i'd just not have a horse. 

the winters are muddier and warmer now. We have all been on moaning about the same winter issues for years now and it IS time yards found solutions. We stuck in a cheap and cheerful all-weather that cost very little, its not perfect, but they can chase, roll, play etc. They have a choice to go in and out of the stables (which have big beds, hay, toys etc) and they all choose to be outside about 80% of the time, even in rain, wind etc. So I know they don't want to be locked inside.
		
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I really think that "jailed" is an unhelpfully emotive word. If you said that people who kept their cats indoors 'jailed' them there'd probably be a few noses put out of joint on this forum. Would you say that cattle that are kept indoors during the winter are 'jailed'?  Or that farmers are being pragmatic? (personally I wouldn't want to do either of those but getting emotional doesn't help to explore the issue rationally)

It's horses for courses isn't it? Mine don't play.  They just don't. It seems to be down to the individual personality. One of mine gets into fisticuffs and the other keeps herself to herself. So I don't see them like children that need to go to the playground, I don't feel that they are missing out if they have to stay in, simply because I never witness that kind of human-like behaviour, and it's not because I am not watching. 

We have an all weather area. The horses that go in it stand by the gate waiting to be brought back in again as there's nothing to graze.

Again, in an ideal world there'd be grazing (not just outside space, but actual grass in abundance) for everyone but the sad reality is that in feb the grass is long gone for many of us.
If you feel that yards should "find solutions", how do you propose to make that happen?  I can't see how anything can change, given the limitations of land area available and money to spend?  Everywhere I see this kind of problem, people are trying to find solutions but can't magic more space from the ether.


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## cobgoblin (15 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			Only one person on a whole long thread has said they keep their horse in for what I considered a spurious reason .
For me there another huge issue that's just been touched on and that's work .
It's clear that some people think that turning out all day in what wil often be small paddocks is all a horse needs that's just not true to be in optimal health horses need work they are designed to exercise a lot and even with paddocks available every day they are not going to be doing enough for their health to be optimal .
That's why we see so many fat lame horse about .
Turnout in the sort of size fields the majority of places provide give horse fresh air and play but the exercise has to provided by the human .
		
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I agree that horses need proper exercise...especially if they are not turned out, although I would argue that both are necessary.

The problem is that a lot of people work in very busy jobs with long hours in order to be able to afford their horses. Not everywhere has a floodlit arena or an indoor school, or even a school that is usable in winter... long commutes mean people do not have the time to ride... or the daylight hours in the week.
I agree that the turnout paddocks provided in many places now are too small....however, this seems to have become generally accepted now...so this is what you get!  If no turn out in winter months becomes accepted in the same way...then that is what will be offered. The market only offers the minimum, because that will be the easiest to provide.


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## tristar (15 February 2017)

i agree with paddy 222, horses are stoic animals, and of all animals the most abused and misunderstood.

i have seen horses put up with things i would have believed possible, and eventually i was forced to do something to literally save them.

anyone one is `close to horses `knows and feels` or senses their vibrations will know what a ridiculous thread this is.

horses are are kind, gentle. highly intelligent very specialized pieces of work who require constant and high standards of management, and one of their most fundamental needs is to move around freely.

they are not designer handbags that can be left on the shelf, they need a standard of management that involves never ending effort, we must conform to their needs not the other way round.


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## Nativelover (15 February 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			I'm finding it a bit disturbing that people are now becoming used to...and even justifying the stabling of horses all winter.  How long before everyone defends horses being just stabled all the time with no turnout at all?

A sign of the future? Or just poor thought processes that will lead to the worst becoming reality?
		
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I agree with this, where I live it's normal for yards to have no turnout from September to June, these yards are always full! I do wonder if it's now so common to find no turnout that it's accepted by owners and therefore it becomes less of a priority when looking at yards.


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## Goldenstar (15 February 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			I agree that horses need proper exercise...especially if they are not turned out, although I would argue that both are necessary.

The problem is that a lot of people work in very busy jobs with long hours in order to be able to afford their horses. Not everywhere has a floodlit arena or an indoor school, or even a school that is usable in winter... long commutes mean people do not have the time to ride... or the daylight hours in the week.
I agree that the turnout paddocks provided in many places now are too small....however, this seems to have become generally accepted now...so this is what you get!  If no turn out in winter months becomes accepted in the same way...then that is what will be offered. The market only offers the minimum, because that will be the easiest to provide.
		
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Both are necessary , it's a harsh thing to say but no one needs to own a horse if you can't exercise that horse to keep it healthy then you pay some one to do what's needed or you don't have one .


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## Goldenstar (15 February 2017)

Mabelthefoal said:



			I hope not cob goblin. I think most people would prefer to have horses out 24-7 if they could. There's nothing I like more than watching mine play in the field ( my foal does a lot of imaginary grand nationals with our poor other horse being forced to join in &#65533;&#65533. Our routine seems to work for them but if it didn't we wouldn't keep them in. In spring/ summer up to about December they stay out 24-7 only coming in for work and feed or if they need time out of flies/ sun. Sometimes I do have to turn away and cover my eyes when they're playing though! Mabel particularly likes skidding stops in deep mud and playing bambi on ice.. Arghh!
		
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I have no interest in having a horse out 24/7 .
I have horses to use them and there's no point in me owning a horse that's out 24/7 
Being stabled part of everyday is necessary for that .
It will be decades since I had a horse that was in a field for 24 hours .


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## cobgoblin (15 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			I have no interest in having a horse out 24/7 .
I have horses to use them and there's no point in me owning a horse that's out 24/7 
Being stabled part of everyday is necessary for that .
It will be decades since I had a horse that was in a field for 24 hours .
		
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I think Mabelthefoal did point out that the horses come in for feed/ prior to exercise...which is what most people with stables would understand as out 24/7.


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## Goldenstar (15 February 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			I think Mabelthefoal did point out that the horses come in for feed/ prior to exercise...which is what most people with stables would understand as out 24/7.
		
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That's not being out 24/7 that's being stabled part of the time .


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## TheMule (15 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			I have no interest in having a horse out 24/7 .
I have horses to use them and there's no point in me owning a horse that's out 24/7 
Being stabled part of everyday is necessary for that .
It will be decades since I had a horse that was in a field for 24 hours .
		
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Why on earth is stabling necessary? There is no requirement to stable a horse to ride it. Mine live out 24/7 and are competition horses- I've evented 2 horses to Intermediate off grass. In fact, I switched to them living out as my event horse just wasn't coping in a stable. I have 4 very happy, very healthy horses who are thriving in their work.


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## cobgoblin (15 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			That's not being out 24/7 that's being stabled part of the time .
		
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How pedantic!


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## cobgoblin (15 February 2017)

TheMule said:



			Why on earth is stabling necessary? There is no requirement to stable a horse to ride it. Mine live out 24/7 and are competition horses- I've evented 2 horses to Intermediate off grass. In fact, I switched to them living out as my event horse just wasn't coping in a stable. I have 4 very happy, very healthy horses who are thriving in their work.
		
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Yes, you can ride directly off grass, but a lot of people will bring in for an hour or two prior to riding, either to allow them to dry off, or to give a rest time after feeding. I've always done it this way and I suspect a lot of others do as well.


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## ihatework (15 February 2017)

TheMule said:



			Why on earth is stabling necessary? There is no requirement to stable a horse to ride it. Mine live out 24/7 and are competition horses- I've evented 2 horses to Intermediate off grass. In fact, I switched to them living out as my event horse just wasn't coping in a stable. I have 4 very happy, very healthy horses who are thriving in their work.
		
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To be fair though that is very dependant on where you live and what grazing facilities you have access to. Personally there would be few set ups where I would be wanting to compete a horse off 24/7 turnout.

That said for retired or leisure horses then yes, my primary management would revolve around turnout access. Indeed part of a decision (a small part and not the main one) was around PTS of a retired horse where I was not in a position to provide adequate quality of life


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## amandaco2 (15 February 2017)

meleeka said:



			I'd bide my time until somewhere with turnout comes up. I think you need to make time to get them out at least twice a day.
		
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me too. id find it impossible with 4 horses, unless they had a walker?turnout pen.
mine live at home and only come in once the fild gets wet...usually 9/10pm til 6am.


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## paddi22 (15 February 2017)

milliepops said:



			I really think that "jailed" is an unhelpfully emotive word. If you said that people who kept their cats indoors 'jailed' them there'd probably be a few noses put out of joint on this forum.
		
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But the reality is if you are shutting something in a small limited space and it has no control over leaving, then it is jailed. I don't think someone keeping their cat in a house is jailing it. But i would think someone keeping a cat in a 2ft by 2ft box (which would be a proportionally large stable) IS jailing it.


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## paddi22 (15 February 2017)

and the 'horses have been stabled for centuries' thing worked in the past because horses would have been in constant proper heavy work, pulling ploughs, pulling coal carts, carraiges, transporting for large distances,.. not just bursts of schooling and short hacks,


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## milliepops (15 February 2017)

paddi22 said:



			But the reality is if you are shutting something in a small limited space and it has no control over leaving, then it is jailed. I don't think someone keeping their cat in a house is jailing it. But i would think someone keeping a cat in a 2ft by 2ft box (which would be a proportionally large stable) IS jailing it.
		
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ok well you choose your words and I will choose mine...People do crate their animals quite often though, no? 
IMO If the animal is kept in and unable to go outdoors for any reason then tbh I think the size of the enclosure is fairly irrelevant if you are looking at expressing natural behaviours etc  would you differentiate between other species that people keep indoors quite happily (kids with hamsters etc...?)  Or those cows I mentioned earlier.



paddi22 said:



			and the 'horses have been stabled for centuries' thing worked in the past because horses would have been in constant proper heavy work, pulling ploughs, pulling coal carts, carraiges, transporting for large distances,.. not just bursts of schooling and short hacks,
		
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I'm not sure that it *did* work for the horses any more than it does now with proper care and attention.. my comment was in response to the suggestion that this is a new thing.


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## jumping.jack_flash (15 February 2017)

Hands up who knows what DIY is / versus Livery/ Versus FULL Livery.... ?

If you could just explain.... as I'm too old and tired to explain to those that are not able to grasp the hassle it was when the DIY I was on... went into 'Lock Down' in 2014 due to the bad weather... and why personally IF I was still a DIY person, it would drive me nuts not having winter turn out ...and even now on livery... IF there was NO Turn Out over the Winter months.. I would move yard!

EOM.


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## paddi22 (15 February 2017)

milliepops said:



			ok well you choose your words and I will choose mine...People do crate their animals quite often though, no?
		
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but no one would crate a dog or cat for 23 hrs a day - the majority of people would see that as cruel. I think the space of the enclosure is important, look at battle to get battery chickens more space. I think it is psychologically damaging to any animal to not be able to do anything apart from walk in a tiny circle all day. Hamsters have proportionally bigger cages than horses do and their cages have more stimulation stuff like tunnels, climbing stuff, wheels etc, multi-levels etcwhere they can run when they feel like it.  They get to exhibit a lot more natural behaviours than horses can in four walls.


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## ester (15 February 2017)

jumping.jack_flash said:



			Hands up who knows what DIY is / versus Livery/ Versus FULL Livery.... ?

If you could just explain.... as I'm too old and tired to explain to those that are not able to grasp the hassle it was when the DIY I was on... went into 'Lock Down' in 2014 due to the bad weather... and why personally IF I was still a DIY person, it would drive me nuts not having winter turn out ...and even now on livery... IF there was NO Turn Out over the Winter months.. I would move yard!

EOM.
		
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Maybe you need to re read your posts before adding them to check they mean what you want them to mean? 

As this 




			I wonder IF it's only the livery yards that restrict the winter turn out?

As . . .

I do not see DIY yards trying to in force such a rule . . . 

Hence . .

Different opinions, as two different sets of owners? ( although, im now on a livery yard, but if they stopped turn out, id move to a turn out yard . .even if having to go back to DIY and my 4.30am starts!).
		
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Really didn't make a lot of sense.


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## tristar (15 February 2017)

i have kept horses out 24 7 with shelters and in full work, it worked very well.

quite a few competition horses are kept like this also, one top level eventer i read about keeps theirs out 24 7

i can only imagine the boredom of a horse locked up all the time, and the physical deterioration of its overall physical condition, for example bones need pressure to maintain strength, that requires movement, not just work but the slow moving around that is natural to horses.


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## milliepops (15 February 2017)

ester said:



			Maybe you need to re read your posts before adding them to check they mean what you want them to mean?
		
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^ this and I'm still not sure what you're getting at here "Hands up who knows what DIY is / versus Livery/ Versus FULL Livery.... ?"
because DIY is a type of livery so there is no clear distinction between DIY & livery unless you add the qualifier of full/part/assisted/competition etc  (and that's a whole new can of worms with the regional variation in definition of those terms!)

nice little diversion from a thread where we are all basically agreeing (in a roundabout way) that no one would choose to be lumped with no winter turnout but isn't-it-a-shame that the world isn't perfect


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## OWLIE185 (15 February 2017)

There are some city centre riding stables where the horses have no turn out but the horses are ridden several hours of each day  so they at least get to be ridden several times each day.
However keeping a privately owned horse, which may be only at best be ridden once a day is cruel and should not be allowed.
Yards for privately owned horses should have sufficient grassing for all year turn out.  If we could do this in London then there is no reason any other yards in other parts of the country should be able to do it.
The fields should have proper drainage installed and the number of horses kept on the yard should be such that the Horse/Land ration is such that the Winter grassing is not destroyed.
I appreciate that there are some competition horses that get little turn out but one would hope they gets lots of exercise each day and if not then this is also cruel.


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## ycbm (15 February 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			I'm finding it a bit disturbing that people are now becoming used to...and even justifying the stabling of horses all winter.  How long before everyone defends horses being just stabled all the time with no turnout at all?

A sign of the future? Or just poor thought processes that will lead to the worst becoming reality?
		
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I'm not sure why you say 'now'?  I was liveried at a stable near Bristol/Bath in 1984 that had no winter turnout and around fifty liveries. It's always been the same in clay areas and yards with insufficient land.


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## ycbm (15 February 2017)

OWLIE185 said:



			There are some city centre riding stables where the horses have no turn out but the horses are ridden several hours of each day  so they at least get to be ridden several times each day.
However keeping a privately owned horse, which may be only at best be ridden once a day is cruel and should not be allowed.
Yards for privately owned horses should have sufficient grassing for all year turn out.  If we could do this in London then there is no reason any other yards in other parts of the country should be able to do it.
The fields should have proper drainage installed and the number of horses kept on the yard should be such that the Horse/Land ration is such that the Winter grassing is not destroyed.
I appreciate that there are some competition horses that get little turn out but one would hope they gets lots of exercise each day and if not then this is also cruel.
		
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Cruel?  Cruel is not enough to eat, more work than they are fit to do, physical beating. It is not a horse standing in a good size stable with food and water on offer, having been ridden for an hour by a competent rider, showing no signs of anxiety whatsoever.

I'd rather my horses were stabled 24/7 with inadequate exercise than used in a riding stable!

Owlie we will need volunteers like you to shoot the ones which have to be given up because people can't afford the livery fees to provide the setup that you are saying is the only one which is not cruel.


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## Damnation (15 February 2017)

The "Type" of livery won't make a difference to the turnout you get normally.

It is the place where you keep your horses that dictates the amount of turnout.

E.g if you keep horses at home, you have more flexibility to leave out/bring in/24hr turnout/put up shelters etc.

On a yard where someone else dicates the rules, it is usually one rule for all unless your horse has some vetenary need to go out. A DIY and a Full livery on the same yard will get either the same amount of allocated days out, or none, or as much as they want in the winter. It is usually one rule for all. The only real difference is that a DIY horse may be out for longer on that allocated turnout day (doing horses around work times) compared to a Part/Full livery who will be done by YO, YM and staff.

The type of livery you are on really is a moot point. It is the yard/place itself that dictates the rules. If that happens to be your own place then happy days.


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## ycbm (15 February 2017)

tristar said:



			i can only imagine the boredom of a horse locked up all the time,
		
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The trouble is you can't. None of us can because we are not horses.  Personally it would send me crazy to eat the same meal for all three meals every day of the week but my horses seem delighted by the idea. 





			and the physical deterioration of its overall physical condition, for example bones need pressure to maintain strength, that requires movement, not just work but the slow moving around that is natural to horses.
		
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Bone strength in humans requires a higher level of exercise than slow moving around. I suspect an hour of medium to high intensity work is plenty to keep muscle and bone healthy. Most race horses live in and they wouldn't if they were stronger and better able to race if they lived out.


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## Slightly Foxed (15 February 2017)

TYSSANDI said:



			I would not cash in.    If we did not open the doors to every person outside England  the problem would not be as big as it is.
		
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Yup, it's all the fault of those bleddy Scots, Irish and Welsh!


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## Lucyad (15 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			The trouble is you can't. None of us can because we are not horses.  Personally it would send me crazy to eat the same meal for all three meals every day of the week but my horses seem delighted by the idea. 




Bone strength in humans requires a higher level of exercise than slow moving around. I suspect an hour of medium to high intensity work is plenty to keep muscle and bone healthy. Most race horses live in and they wouldn't if they were stronger and better able to race if they lived out.
		
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They probably get a lot more exercise than your average 'hobby' horse though - I remember being shocked at the rate the muscle fell off my horse when he was on box rest. It gradually came back as he was hand walked then turned out. Many horses don't get a significant amount of exercise, particularly over winter.


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## Casey76 (15 February 2017)

Charlie31 said:



			Quite often when there are these sorts of threads it all comes down to money and people not being prepared to pay the true cost of livery. But, and this is a genuine question, have livery yard owners ever discussed this with their liveries to see what they're actually prepared to pay? If so then fine but I do wonder if they just assume people won't pay and so keep their prices down out of fear of people protesting and leaving.
		
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Yes, at our yard meeting our YO gave up a detailed breakdown of all of the costs (building/vehicle maintenance, feed and bedding, labour, tax etc) and pared down to the bare minimum it was 11 per horse per day.  With the current livery charge he is making 9 per horse per day.

The deficit comes from the time it takes to turn out, and given that mine is one of three yards in my area (approx. 100km diameter) that offers any (never mind restricted) turnout, he could quite easily turn round and say, no more turnout unless owners do it themselves to make up the deficit.


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## samlf (15 February 2017)

I, personally, would never keep a horse on a yard with no winter turnout or turnout that was heavily restricted. It is not the norm in our area to have no winter turnout - there was one yard that operated this way, but they closed down because no-one would stable their horse there. There are other more competition based yards to do seem to restrict turnout, but I have never been on them - I'd rather have poorer facilities for myself than my horses suffer.

I am very lucky that I rent my own yard, mine live out and the field does end up very muddy as we are on clay and it is poorly draining. It always recovers with the right management. 

I think if I were to be unable to keep my horses this way, I'd rather not have a horse than have to keep it stuck in a box all winter. I am sure they would outwardly cope but it isn't healthy for them mentally or physically and I don't believe that ridden work is a substitute for turnout with another of their species to be able to interact and relax. 

I hope the yards that are struggling with winter turnout would consider an all weather area, it is relatively inexpensive and would allow the horses to at least express some natural behaviour. Those horses I do know that have been kept on a restricted regime seem to have had their fair share of injuries, KS, arthritis, laminitis etc. Of course I cant put this solely down to a restricted lifestyle, but I doubt it has helped.


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## milliepops (15 February 2017)

Lucyad said:



			They probably get a lot more exercise than your average 'hobby' horse though - I remember being shocked at the rate the muscle fell off my horse when he was on box rest. It gradually came back as he was hand walked then turned out. Many horses don't get a significant amount of exercise, particularly over winter.
		
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and this is why it's bonkers to have a thread like this where people get all agitated about someone else's horses having less turnout than they would choose. We aren't all the same, not every horse that spends a lot of time indoors is withering away because some are kept in more work than others, so the level of fury that is apparent in a few posts is quite misplaced IMO  
 Mine get stacks of work all year round and will come out of this winter looking fabulous, the younger one particularly so as she has developed quite a bit since the autumn.


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## Tyssandi (15 February 2017)

Mabelthefoal said:



			I hope not cob goblin. I think most people would prefer to have horses out 24-7 if they could. There's nothing I like more than watching mine play in the field ( my foal does a lot of imaginary grand nationals with our poor other horse being forced to join in &#65533;&#65533. Our routine seems to work for them but if it didn't we wouldn't keep them in. In spring/ summer up to about December they stay out 24-7 only coming in for work and feed or if they need time out of flies/ sun. Sometimes I do have to turn away and cover my eyes when they're playing though! Mabel particularly likes skidding stops in deep mud and playing bambi on ice.. Arghh!
		
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I for one would not want my horses out full time  (now)

These horses hang round the gate from about 3pm onward waiting to come in. 

 To say most people is a bit presumptuous as many do not want their horses out full time due to what ever personal reason they don't


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## Tyssandi (15 February 2017)

paddi22 said:



			But the reality is if you are shutting something in a small limited space and it has no control over leaving, then it is jailed. I don't think someone keeping their cat in a house is jailing it. But i would think someone keeping a cat in a 2ft by 2ft box (which would be a proportionally large stable) IS jailing it.
		
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So where do you stop then ?   keeping fish in a small tank is jailing it -  keeping rabbits in a cage is jailing it -  keeping birds in cages is jailing it.    Same with snakes and all reptiles
You forget many many horses prefer living in to living out.  What do you do with those ones?? boot them out only for them to stand at the gate all night miserable dropping off weight???  Keeping prisoners in small cells is cruel, where does it end??  Sometimes the end justifies the means


MY only qualm about not turning out, is when the yard management is not properly managed to where  owners cannot have their horses out due to the fields getting muddy etc.   That is not in the best interest of the horse, either cut down the amount of horses on a yard to where some fields are resting while the winter turnout recovers or do something to improve the drainage so the fields do not get in a state (unless your on clay).   Round here  (one of my livery owners)  was on a yard where one horse slipped and broke it's leg so the Y/M said * No more turnout when wet mud or slippery fields*   Her horse was in 2 weeks  yard added money to the bill to exercise the horses during the day when owner's at work.  Accidents happen and that should not put a ban on ALL turnout because of one sad incident.


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## ester (15 February 2017)

milliepops said:



			and this is why it's bonkers to have a thread like this where people get all agitated about someone else's horses having less turnout than they would choose. We aren't all the same, not every horse that spends a lot of time indoors is withering away because some are kept in more work than others, so the level of fury that is apparent in a few posts is quite misplaced IMO  
 Mine get stacks of work all year round and will come out of this winter looking fabulous, the younger one particularly so as she has developed quite a bit since the autumn.
		
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MP genuinely curious because it was part of the reason I abandoned Frank the other side of the country, how do you cope with the situation for Millie when she is off games? Just in hand stuff etc?


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## paddi22 (15 February 2017)

TYSSANDI said:



			So where do you stop then ?   keeping fish in a small tank is jailing it -  keeping rabbits in a cage is jailing it -  keeping birds in cages is jailing it.    Same with snakes and all reptiles
You forget many many horses prefer living in to living out.  What do you do with those ones?? boot them out only for them to stand at the gate all night miserable dropping off weight???  Keeping prisoners in small cells is cruel, where does it end??  Sometimes the end justifies the means
		
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Surely there's a line at which quality of life decreases due to restricted confinement. A hamster in a cage still has a wheel to burn off excess energy when it chooses, it can climb bars when it feels like it, get different sensations from tunneling in fluff or sleeps in hollowed branch toys. That is a whole different sensory environment to a herd animal designed to roam plains being kept in a space where it can only turn in a circle and look out one direction and be surrounded by four walls.

There is a definite balance of enrichment vs confinement. I don't know where the line is scientifically. I know everyone loves their horses and does their best, but genuinely i think a lof of people turn a blind eye to the reality of how their horses quality of life suffers because they don't have a better option for them.


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## milliepops (15 February 2017)

ester said:



			MP genuinely curious because it was part of the reason I abandoned Frank the other side of the country, how do you cope with the situation for Millie when she is off games? Just in hand stuff etc?
		
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Handy for us,  if she's not been on actual box rest I've been able to ride her. Even when she's been a bit wonky in the school she's been OK on the hard surfaces for lane hacking . Lucky eh?  I did have a retirement back up plan but so far not needed it.


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## Tyssandi (15 February 2017)

paddi22 said:



			Surely there's a line at which quality of life decreases due to restricted confinement. A hamster in a cage still has a wheel to burn off excess energy when it chooses, it can climb bars when it feels like it, get different sensations from tunneling in fluff or sleeps in hollowed branch toys. That is a whole different sensory environment to a herd animal designed to roam plains being kept in a space where it can only turn in a circle and look out one direction and be surrounded by four walls.

There is a definite balance of enrichment vs confinement. I don't know where the line is scientifically. I know everyone loves their horses and does their best, but genuinely i think a lof of people turn a blind eye to the reality of how their horses quality of life suffers because they don't have a better option for them.
		
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I don't agree


  A wheel in a hamster cage is not normal as it is cooped up in a cage all day  surround by bars.  It has no choice but to exercise on a wheel.    I have already said no turnout  for a horse is morally wrong and ethically wrong for many reasons.  A horse who goes out 7am and in at 4 for example can do a hell of a lot more in the time it is out than a hamster in a cage.

Just because 24 turnout is right for one horse does not mean it is right for another. Many of our breeds today came from warmer climates  and do not do so well out unlike cobs 
 Regardless of peoples views on stabling horses it has been done for centuries and it becomes the normal for some horses, something they think nothing about coming into a warm brick stable with food on tap and dry bed to sleep on.    Some prefer it and as they are the ones who have to live that way and accept it, as if they did not accept stable life they would show symptoms of distress,  jumping out the stable, loosing weight due to stress of being confined and banging at walls or doors.   All this lot do is hang round the gates and kick the gates wanting to come in when the weather is bad.   

To force a horse to stay in when it shows symptoms like the ones I mentioned above is wrong but when it is clear the horse prefers living in who are we to chuck it out in the elements.


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## meleeka (15 February 2017)

paddi22 said:



			There is a definite balance of enrichment vs confinement. I don't know where the line is scientifically. I know everyone loves their horses and does their best, but genuinely i think a lof of people turn a blind eye to the reality of how their horses quality of life suffers because they don't have a better option for them.
		
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I think that's exactly it.


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## paddi22 (15 February 2017)

thats the point im arguing tssyandi,, we are on the same side. I have no issue with a horse going out from 7am to 4pm. My issue is horses not going out at all. Someone said its the same as a hamster in a cage, but my point was that a hamster gets to expend energy and chance pace at least, an option that isvnot available to 24/7 stabled horses.


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## jumping.jack_flash (15 February 2017)

Oh Millipops . .  I totally give up . .  My over all point was. . .i would not not have my animal on a yard with no winter turn out, regardless if on DIY, Livery, Full Livery . .


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## Mabelthefoal (15 February 2017)

This is clearly quite an emotive subject. I think in the end everyone tries to do what's best for their horse and themselves. Just to clarify by 24/7 I mean out when not in use ( I couldn't be bothered to work it out down to how many hours being worked/ groomed/ fed etc) and by most people I mean the majority of people I speak to. Clearly if your horse is not happy being out or you prefer keeping in then that's what you do. We had an ex racer once who used to point blank refuse to leave the stables in bad weather! On the other hand we've had horses that fret and stress if in for more than a couple of hours, so it really does depend on horse, circumstances and what yard you are at.


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## Tyssandi (15 February 2017)

My appologies I thought you were including horses in part time



paddi22 said:



			But the reality is if you are shutting something in a small limited space and it has no control over leaving, then it is jailed. I don't think someone keeping their cat in a house is jailing it. But i would think someone keeping a cat in a 2ft by 2ft box (which would be a proportionally large stable) IS jailing it.

My Apologies  I thought you were including those who were in a stable part time in your description of  a small place and jailing it.
		
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TYSSANDI said:



			why is it restricted   I wonder???

 too many horses?   bad drainage?



Personally  unless you are on clay or bad drainage, one of my pet hates is not being allowed to turn your horses out,  very poor excuse if the Y/O is not managing the land so this is restricted.

_We have NEVER restricted grazing (unless lami) and never will.   Horses need to be out and mooching, and not cooped up for hours  and hours eating and not moving 

._


This is poor management  IMB
		
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That is  what I said earlier


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## AdorableAlice (15 February 2017)

I have a retired horse who lived in on the continent until he was 7, then imported to a well known dressage yard in Surrey where he again lived in.  His day pre me buying him as a 10 year old, was on the walker, on the lunge and then schooled.

When he came to me it took him an entire year to adapt to being turned out in the mornings and he had to be back in by 5 ish or he would start to stress and if it rained he wanted in immediately.  This was fine as he was a competition horse.  He retired through injury and with the help of a special friend we devised a new lifestyle for him.  It has been very interesting to watch him develop his routine and under no circumstances can it be changed.  He lives alone but surrounded by other horses, in 3 small paddocks and has a large barn as his house.  Rubber flooring with a deep shavings bed at one end.  At this time of year he puts himself to bed at dusk and stays there until dawn.  If the day is dry he goes out and waits at the gate for his breakfast,  if it is wet he stays put and waits for breakfast in bed.  This routine is stuck to with the only changes being the time of dawn and dusk, in mid summer he goes to bed at 10pm and out again at 4am.

If he is seen going into his house in the middle of the day I can guarantee it will start to rain within minutes.  His barn door can never be shut with him in or out.  They say horses like routine, my lad takes it to another level.  He is 24 now and every day is cherished as without his special home he would have to be pts.


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## KittenInTheTree (16 February 2017)

We opted to rent additional paddocks so as to have sufficient grazing for year round 24/7 turnout. We rotate between them as required - each paddock is rested for at least as long as it has been grazed, usually three times as long. We also poo pick twice weekly year round, and feed haylage from October through April. We get through a round bale in ten days. The haylage is fed in large builder's sacks, which are placed in different parts of the paddock each day (one sack per horse). The water barrels are also moved regularly to avoid poaching.


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## mariew (16 February 2017)

I haven't read it all, but we're on heavy clay and very few yards can maintain ideal turnout in the winter.  We're lucky to have sandpits where they can at least get a change of scenery and this year they've still had a bit of turnout which is fab.  

My horse has even put herself on 2 month box confinement in the past as the fields were too muddy a few years back and she point blank refused to trapse through the mud.  I guess it all comes down to a compromise, and if you can't live with no turnout, and this is generally the only option then your only other choice is to be horseless.  

Where I grew up turnout tends to be very limited over the winter, and restricted to smallish pens, but the horses also get worked a lot to keep them sane.  They don't particularly seem to suffer or didn't show any particular stable vices or stress signs more than here.  It's just a different way of keeping a horse, you get very large yards, with decent indoor schools, and part of that it isn't really that easy to have big turnout fields per horse when there's 100 horses on the yard!


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## wingedhorse (16 February 2017)

Ive moved my horses to 35 minutes drive away and part livery. But they have sandy winter soil, and my horses can go out at night all year round. Which is 16 hours plus of turnout. Plus good well drained varied hacking.

Cannot put a price on this IMO.


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## Casey76 (16 February 2017)

This is my turnout







My horses are out from 6:30 til after 5.

They don't run around, they don't play, they can't even walk around properly because the mud (clay) is still 8ins deep and as it is now drying out it is creating huge amounts of suction.  If they stand still eating the hay they actually get stuck.

I have to religiously check for mud fever because their fetlocks and pasterns never dry out completely, even overnight (due to the sticky clay).

T spends more time standing at the gate than she does anything else.

You can't tell me it is healthy for a horse to spend 24/7 with wet legs.  I struggle with 12 hours, and I'm going to have to put up with the aftermath of pulpy coronary bands for weeks to come.

I hate winter... but they are out, and 98% of other yards do not offer turnout at all in winter (and more than one or two offer no turnout at all, all year round).


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## wingedhorse (16 February 2017)

Casey76 said:



			This is my turnout







My horses are out from 6:30 til after 5.

They don't run around, they don't play, they can't even walk around properly because the mud (clay) is still 8ins deep and as it is now drying out it is creating huge amounts of suction.  If they stand still eating the hay they actually get stuck.

I have to religiously check for mud fever because their fetlocks and pasterns never dry out completely, even overnight (due to the sticky clay).

T spends more time standing at the gate than she does anything else.

You can't tell me it is healthy for a horse to spend 24/7 with wet legs.  I struggle with 12 hours, and I'm going to have to put up with the aftermath of pulpy coronary bands for weeks to come.

I hate winter... but they are out, and 98% of other yards do not offer turnout at all in winter (and more than one or two offer no turnout at all, all year round).
		
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Do your horses want to be out? Or do they want to come back in? Arent they injuring themselves? 

Is there a bit of drier bit at the back, or is it all like the front?

I had a lot of success with pig oiling legs to stop mud sticking when turning out on deep wet clay. 

But the shoe loss, and difficulty walking in it made me decide to revaluate.


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## Cortez (16 February 2017)

Casey, honestly, why do you bother putting them out there? I wouldn't put a pig in that (actually pigs would love it!), I cannot see any benefit at all, and a plethora of problems. Of course other yards in the area don't offer turnout, what on earth is the point?


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## DanceswithCows (16 February 2017)

Pigs don't love mud like that either, they enjoy a cool mudbath when its hot but the rest of the time they're forced into it because they dig, it gets wet, and then where else can they go? nothing likes living in 24/7 chilly mud.  

I'm OK with no turnout, but if thats the case my animals live lose in pens in a barn together.  Mine are out now, but there's 7 on 50acres so its not chewed up and they have dry spots, concrete to eat hay on and trees to shelter under, if it was going to be a postage stamp of mud, they'd be in.


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## Cecile (16 February 2017)

Casey76 said:



			This is my turnout







My horses are out from 6:30 til after 5.

They don't run around, they don't play, they can't even walk around properly because the mud (clay) is still 8ins deep and as it is now drying out it is creating huge amounts of suction.  If they stand still eating the hay they actually get stuck.

I have to religiously check for mud fever because their fetlocks and pasterns never dry out completely, even overnight (due to the sticky clay).

T spends more time standing at the gate than she does anything else.

You can't tell me it is healthy for a horse to spend 24/7 with wet legs.  I struggle with 12 hours, and I'm going to have to put up with the aftermath of pulpy coronary bands for weeks to come.

I hate winter... but they are out, and 98% of other yards do not offer turnout at all in winter (and more than one or two offer no turnout at all, all year round).
		
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Oh I just couldn't cope with that paddock.  Is that your winter paddock as it looks so tiny from that photo? It also seems to be located close to where building are
The paddock in the distance on the right looks better but photo's can be so misleading and I assume as its on lower ground it could be worse down there than what you have
I really don't envy you with that set up, small wonder you hate winter


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## Tiddlypom (16 February 2017)

Casey, sorry to jump on your post along with others, but not long ago you were bemoaning how your turnout was frozen, and how one of your horses was hobbling on the frozen ground. That clay soup you show in the pic, if frozen, would be absolutely lethal, why on earth would you turn out on it?


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## ester (16 February 2017)

I hope Casey doesn't mind me saying but iirc her yard has little turnout for the number of horses, from the map she posted I suspect the field in the distance doesn't belong to the yard as the land round there was really broken up between different owners. She also has particularly small stables and a horse with EPSM.


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## Casey76 (17 February 2017)

ester said:



			I hope Casey doesn't mind me saying but iirc her yard has little turnout for the number of horses, from the map she posted I suspect the field in the distance doesn't belong to the yard as the land round there was really broken up between different owners. She also has particularly small stables and a horse with EPSM.
		
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Yep, we have 20 horses on a total of 6 acres split into individual paired turnout.  I have one of the largest "fields" which is about 0.2 acres, and is actually borrowed from another land owner who hobby farms it for oats during the growing season.  The "fields" which the other horses go into is divided into strips which are about 8m wide and 50m long, most of which have sycamores along one edge.

I turn out onto it, as I have no other choice. It is either that or into a 12'x12' hard standing pen (which haven't been cared for by other owners, so is thick with dung).  My stables are only 2.75x2.5m, so it would be cruelty keeping then in.

I pay my riding instructor to keep B exercised until he is sold.  T is only just coming back into work after the extended lay off, and is still being walked for only 10 mins a day.  At least out in the mud pit she is free to socialize with B (i.e. chasing him off the hay) and the two horses in the next field.

Why don't I move... because this is one of the best yards in my area.  I have a LOT of freedom regarding turnout (i.e. when), what my horses eat, how much hay and bedding they get.  e.g. The stables in my village is a riding school.  The horses have no turnout, bar 1/2 day per week all year round (other than a 2 week holiday in summer), they are mucked out twice a week in winter and once a week in summer with no bedding top ups in between. The stables are smaller than I currently have.  The food is lucerne nuts and crushed barley. There is no differentiation between school and private horses regarding general care.

It's amazing how many people actually prefer their horses not to go out at all in winter - may be it's a continental thing, but as soon as the weather turns bad people start insisting that their horses are kept in (at least on my yard). "it's too slippy" etc

I've looked for other yards, believe me; but anything within a sensible commute (within 30 mins of home or 1hr from work (and that would be accessible if it snows!)), there is no turnout between Oct and April.


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## milliepops (17 February 2017)

I really don't envy you Casey! Whatever we struggle with in the UK seems to pale into insignificance compared to the weird way of doing things in France   I'm sure it makes sense to them but I can't understand not at least mucking out daily - I'm not doubting what you say at all as have heard it elsewhere too.  Nowt as queer as folk!


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## Cortez (17 February 2017)

Just out of interest, how are the horses in general (condition, demeanour, etc.) that are kept as you describe Casey?


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## Auslander (17 February 2017)

Mine all live out 24/7, bar one who comes in at night. I'm on heavy clay, at the bottom of a slope, so my fields are seriously wet, but I do have pens attached to the fields. The fields aren't looking too awful, because the horses choose to stay in the pens most of the time, where they have adlib hay. If they do go out, they graze for an hour, then bring themselves back in. I don't think they move that much more than a stabled horse, as they just hang out by their hay feeders all day. I guess it's good that they have choices, but I don't think they would be that bothered if they were in 24/7!
When I was working with horses properly, they were either stabled, in full work, or turned away at grass for the off-season. I don't remember any stabled horses having turnout, except for their days off.


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## Goldenstar (17 February 2017)

My first job was with hunters they came off the hill and to work .
The yard I was on was considered modern as the horses did get some turn out young horses i.e. Three and four year olds in for training got out most days for a couple of hours and hunters got the day out after hunting and perhaps a couple of hours another  day if the weather was good and it fitted in .
What they got was work proper hacking up and down hills lots of trotting .
They had settled roultine they were fed early by the YOer who then went off the yard by the time we got in a seven everybody had eaten up  and everything happened at the same time every day .
Hard food was given four times a day and after the lunch time one we were all off the yard for an hour and bit so they has peace and quiet to eat .
And what I remember from that yard was settled happy horses who all knew their job .


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## Casey76 (17 February 2017)

Cortez said:



			Just out of interest, how are the horses in general (condition, demeanour, etc.) that are kept as you describe Casey?
		
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We have a whole range of horses and ponies on the yard, and in the most instance everyone is pretty chill.  There are a couple of bitey horses, however that is due to poor handling/training.  There are a couple of door kickers at meal times.  Most of the horses and ponies lean towards being porky, but we also have some which are competing to a decent level (juniors jumping 1,20 etc). I will say that they aren't over fed at all.  Most are on 1 measure of Baileys LoCal, or 1 scoop of the high fibre mix.

When I was at the riding school, I was lucky in that there was pretty decent management at the time (I moved due to the decreasing turnout and lack of mucking out), but the school horses were worked about 3-4 hours a day (though people did complain that their favourite school horse turned into a nightmare when they bought them *smh*) Pinto was always really cool, but I had a sharer who used to enjoy fast hacks, and we would hack for hours at the weekend, or go on 1hr road rides at 10kmph.


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## MotherOfChickens (17 February 2017)

Back in the 80s I was a WP at a large comp/livery/RS/exam centre. We had RS ponies (and a couple of RS horses) that lived ta grass but the livery yard only had very limited turnout-they had to book turnout times and slots. I did three WB stallions and had my own stallion paddock which I used regularly but those horses were expected to be spotless at all times so the owner could ride whenever he could fit it in between teaching. My other liveries did not have regular turnout even in the summer. 

Nearly all of them were absolutely fine (and the couple that werent I think with hindsight didnt like their internal stables)-they were happy, fit horses that were worked daily-some were leisure horses, some dressage and some hunters. They were all full livery so the owners had nothing to do than ride and many were used for WPs in the school or hacked by them as well. They would be in 2 hours work a day, 6 days a week minimum from memory.


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## Cortez (17 February 2017)

Casey76 said:



			We have a whole range of horses and ponies on the yard, and in the most instance everyone is pretty chill.  There are a couple of bitey horses, however that is due to poor handling/training.  There are a couple of door kickers at meal times.  Most of the horses and ponies lean towards being porky, but we also have some which are competing to a decent level (juniors jumping 1,20 etc). I will say that they aren't over fed at all.  Most are on 1 measure of Baileys LoCal, or 1 scoop of the high fibre mix.

When I was at the riding school, I was lucky in that there was pretty decent management at the time (I moved due to the decreasing turnout and lack of mucking out), but the school horses were worked about 3-4 hours a day (though people did complain that their favourite school horse turned into a nightmare when they bought them *smh*) Pinto was always really cool, but I had a sharer who used to enjoy fast hacks, and we would hack for hours at the weekend, or go on 1hr road rides at 10kmph.
		
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So, in fact, those horses were absolutely fine being kept in? I think it's the idea of turnout that gets people all het up about horses being kept in; the horses SHOULD want to be out with the wind in their manes and acres of rolling green pasture to canter about on like Spirit the Mustang, etc., etc. but in reality horses don't much care where they are as long as they have food, water and sufficient - this is the vital bit - exercise. Turning out in a bare, or deeply muddy & unpleasant, postage stamp-sized paddock is no pleasure for horses. They would be better off stabled and worked.

Here is the crux of the matter though: people are unwilling or unable to invest the effort to actually ride or otherwise work their animals and use turnout instead. Am I wrong?


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## wingedhorse (17 February 2017)

Cortez said:



			Here is the crux of the matter though: people are unwilling or unable to invest the effort to actually ride or otherwise work their animals and use turnout instead. Am I wrong?
		
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I dont entirely agree.

I work my horses. Mixture competing, clinics, lessons, schooling, polework, faster work, hillwork, long hacking. 
I compete at Medium dressage, and like them aerobically fit, and well cross trained. I also have two sharers that mainly hack mid week. 
My horses work 6-8 times most weeks. Including boxing out to compete / clinics / longer hacks / gallops etc.

HOWEVER my horses also think it is their God given right to have time in a field being a horse. 
Time to roll, scratch each other, and charge about and mooch!

Mine have unlimited adlib hay in stables. But that doesnt mollify them if they think it is the time of day they think they should be playing in the field.

Now they will stay in if need be, e.g. for farrier / injury / competition etc. But not without looking pointedly at me and field! 

Most horses I know, if offered decent turnout, with something to eat, well draining, sheltered spacious field group and nice friends, will then quickly adapt to EXPECTING daily turnout, and expressing an opinion on it.

Different if horses arent used to good turnout, or the turnout is grim and horses dont want to be out.

Ive had four horses that had little turnout before I got them. In less than three weeks with each horse, they loved turnout, and had strong opinions on daily field time (and not because in a routine, because they wanted time in field) 

I do agree that a great many people keep horses and dont work them very much and dont ride one week to the next. Or potter a bit, and I do agree that good turnout as a way to move and exercise is more important for these horses.


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## Goldenstar (17 February 2017)

Cortez said:



			So, in fact, those horses were absolutely fine being kept in? I think it's the idea of turnout that gets people all het up about horses being kept in; the horses SHOULD want to be out with the wind in their manes and acres of rolling green pasture to canter about on like Spirit the Mustang, etc., etc. but in reality horses don't much care where they are as long as they have food, water and sufficient - this is the vital bit - exercise. Turning out in a bare, or deeply muddy & unpleasant, postage stamp-sized paddock is no pleasure for horses. They would be better off stabled and worked.

Here is the crux of the matter though: people are unwilling or unable to invest the effort to actually ride or otherwise work their animals and use turnout instead. Am I wrong?
		
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Of course you can't generalise but I think you are right many people have horses and don't work them.
They think that turnout in a small paddock can negate the need for exercise it doesn't .
They think that if the horse is out in a small paddock 24/7 is enough exercise to keep a horse healthy, it's not .
They think ambling about the roads for forty minutes four times a week is work 
Theres a great load of horse out there not getting any thing like enough work to compensate for their management .
And fat don't get me started on the weights that are considered normal .
I glad we hunt it makes my life easy in that the horses are in hardest work when turnout is most restricted .


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## Fiona (17 February 2017)

Hubby and I moved 20 miles further away from where we work so we could afford to buy our own property with land etc for the horses.  This was partly because we had 3 horses at the time and livery costs were getting a bigger % of our monthly budget, and partly due to the last livery yard we were at (told they had all year turnout, winter in smaller fields, but the winter fields were actually 1/2 acre of weeds which disappeared within a fortnight in October leaving horses in knee deep mud until our mare tried to climb out and bruised her tendon on the wire (fortunately plain wire))...

Now after 16 years at home, we have a school, stables, a new all weather 20x20 turnout and about 6.5 acres of grazing which we know how to use so it doesn't get poached in the winter.

This winter has been lovely and dry though, so the pony has lived out, and the two horses have got turned out every day except for about 3 days, with the all weather on maybe about 10 days.

The last time we had 24/7 stabling for weeks was in the snow of 2009 and 2010, and though the horses got used to the altered routine, they were glad to get back to normal again.

From a soppy human POV, I don't like pony being out 24/7 but as she can't eat hay its very much the easiest way of managing her.

Fiona


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## Damnation (17 February 2017)

Cortez said:



			Here is the crux of the matter though: people are unwilling or unable to invest the effort to actually ride or otherwise work their animals and use turnout instead. Am I wrong?
		
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I don't fully disagree but I don't fully agree either.

As I've said before I was on one yard who promised turnout and an arena being built (or I would have never moved there) and neither materialised. With nowhere to ride and no turnout it was stressful so I left to a yard that does offer turnout and has an arena with lights.

The flip side is aswell, if you are around all day or it is your yard/business you have the pick of the facilities, have daylight in which to exercise and are perhaps not on such a time table as someone who works full time. The YO's at previous yard could cope with the no turnout because it was their business, they had all day to exercise, including a groom who exercised. I did ask if they would exercise mine during the day and I would be happy to pay, they agreed to do it but it never happened.

I've also been on yards where even though there are facilities, they are booked weeks in advance (usually by the same people, as far forward as you are allowed to book) or they hire out for Competitions or dog clubs. This means Joe Bloggs who works 40hrs a week is scuppered as you can't actually get anywhere near the facilities to do anything with your horse.

It is an argument that has so many variables I don't think it can be attributed to one thing.

Mine is on a yard with turnout. It is muddy, they have a round feeder of hay which they share well, nothing has gotten mudfever, been kicked or even lost a shoe (miraculously!). Yes they are muddy but they are happy and eager to go out every day and that is how I personally like to keep my horses.

If I had adequate facilities with a decent amount of availablity and no turnout, then I will keep in 24/7 as I can then ensure she gets exercised which I have done previously. However she wasn't as settled as she is now on daily turnout.


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