# Pin firing .... no negative comments please



## SLICONNEMARA (19 February 2017)

Hi, I've just recently had my mares legs pin fired because her check ligament went and she was unable to stand without support ... even though people say it's barbaric I think it wasn't too bad minumal bloody and practically no discomfort as happy to dig in her bed and kick the door . horse is happy and sound 5 days after ... 

But has anyone info on what to expect after the healing ?? Google is a bit blank as people don't agree with it . I know polo ponies and racers have it done but will she be able to jump again and constantly live out . Also will I be able to affiliate her now she's been fired??

She is always going to be at the home so never to be sold


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## ycbm (19 February 2017)

I think that she now needs turning away for six months to a year, bringing slowly and carefully back into work and seeing how much she'll stand up to with a gradual increase in what you ask of her.

No-one can answer what she will then be capable of. What will be, will be.


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## be positive (19 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			I think that she now needs turning away for six months to a year, bringing slowly and carefully back into work and seeing how much she'll stand up to with a gradual increase in what you ask of her.

No-one can answer what she will then be capable of. What will be, will be.
		
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This, it is not going to make her sound by itself it is the rest and rehab that are going to be the deciding factor in what she can go on to do, I had a racehorse come in just after being bar fired, he had about 8 weeks box rest with daily walking followed by just over 6 months being turned out 24/7 then a very careful steady rehab to strengthen him up before he went back to full work, he stayed sound point to pointing and then "retired" to be a RC all rounder, I would have preferred that the firing had not been done but he was not mine so not my decision.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (19 February 2017)

In my youth (a rather long time ago LOL) it was commonplace to see fired horses out hunting all the time. And it saved many a good horse too.........

I think you need to ask your vet and farrier what you should expect TBH and take things from there. What you really need is a treatment plan and "return to work" regime and my feeling is that turnout alone isn't going to achieve that, you need some idea of what you should be doing, when, and how. 

Good luck! Its not always easy to do something radical, but you've obviously thought the thing through and acted in your horse's best interests. Hope all goes well.


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## SLICONNEMARA (19 February 2017)

Thank you . I'm only 1 week into healing and we can start hand walking in another 3 weeks or so 

I know it's a long way off riding or turn out atm but I need information to decide if I keep her on livery or leave her out to have a foal and live her life as our garden ornament lol 

Do bjsa or bs allow horses that are fired to affiliate or will I be now left to unaffiliated.  I've tried calling bsja and someone said they would call me back which I did chase up with emails but no one has said yes or no


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## ycbm (19 February 2017)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			In my youth (a rather long time ago LOL) it was commonplace to see fired horses out hunting all the time. And it saved many a good horse too.........
		
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The current consensus of opinion, I think,  is that it is the rest that saves them, but that it's far easier to persuade an owner to rest for long enough when the horse has burnt legs than when it looks fine from the outside.

Current veterinary advice, I believe,  is that it should be done only when all else, including turning away for an extended period,  has failed.


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## ycbm (19 February 2017)

SLICONNEMARA said:



			Thank you . I'm only 1 week into healing and we can start hand walking in another 3 weeks or so 

I know it's a long way off riding or turn out atm but I need information to decide if I keep her on livery or leave her out to have a foal and live her life as our garden ornament lol 

Do bjsa or bs allow horses that are fired to affiliate or will I be now left to unaffiliated.  I've tried calling bsja and someone said they would call me back which I did chase up with emails but no one has said yes or no
		
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Was there a known one-off accident or are you considering breeding from a mare who did not stand up to work?   That doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Since the horse will need to be turned away for an extended period I don't understand the dilemma about keeping her in livery or at home?


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## SpringArising (19 February 2017)

SLICONNEMARA said:



			I know it's a long way off riding or turn out atm but I need information to decide if I keep her on livery or leave her out to have a foal
		
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What's your reason for wanting to breed from her? Also why put extra strain on already questionable legs?


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## Cortez (19 February 2017)

I thought firing (pin or bar) was illegal? It certainly is here in Ireland.


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## ester (19 February 2017)

no not illegal, though not all vets will do it.


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## Tiddlypom (19 February 2017)

Your mare has gone from being unable to stand, due to the pulled check ligament, to being sound 5 days after firing?

Wow.


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## ester (19 February 2017)

I guess maybe both legs hurt now


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## TheMule (19 February 2017)

Shocking that in this day and age people still resort to barbaric treatments. 
There are plenty of ways to support check ligament healing. Putting causitc chemicals on the skin is not one of them. Poor horse.


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## ycbm (19 February 2017)

TheMule said:



			Shocking that in this day and age people still resort to barbaric treatments. 
There are plenty of ways to support check ligament healing. Putting causitc chemicals on the skin is not one of them. Poor horse.
		
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It wasn't putting caustic chemicals on the skin,  it was putting red hot pins straight into the tendon/ligament. That's what pin firing is.


OP can we see some pictures, I'd be very interested.


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## fairyclare (19 February 2017)

SLICONNEMARA said:



			even though people say it's barbaric I think it wasn't too bad minumal bloody and practically no discomfort as happy to dig in her bed and kick the door . horse is happy and sound 5 days after ...
		
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I'd say that digging the bed and kicking the door is pain related! 
It wasn't too bad for you, it wasn't you that had been pin fired.

Check ligaments that are so badly damaged that the horse can't stand don't repair in 5days post pin firing! 
Poor mare sounds like she is now lame on both legs.


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## SLICONNEMARA (19 February 2017)

The mare is not lame and now can stand . From scans to treatment I had 1 week to make my mind up and I thought it was going be horrific but it's actually better than any operation . She's not in pain and not on pain relief . Happy eating for England. 

She kicks the door for food and has always digs her bed so that's normal behaviour.

She has 6 weeks off to reduce swelling before the scans were able to be done when she had to be bandaged 24/7 as leg couldn't take the weight . But if she never had this procedure she wouldn't really live a normal life as she has long thin legs and even the vet said it's the main cause of this injury .

I want to breed from her because she's a delightful mare and a valued member of the family plus her breeding is impeccable .

Now I know alot of people are against this but this is why it's so hard to find correct information regarding it and asked on here for advice but as usual I've been given the same numb headed answer it's cruel blah blah blah and it's not cruel and my horse isn't in any distress or pain and is happy for you to touch her legs and pick out her feet


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## sjp1 (19 February 2017)

Well, I don't know.  I owned an ex racer who had been both bar fired and blistered.  He was sound after this but I owned him several years after this had happened to him.

I do however think that it is the time off that is required that is instrumental in the healing.  Every race horse owner/trainer will understand that a year off firing and blistering is necessary.  Whether a year off in the field without pin or bar firing and blistering would yield the same results I am not sure - I think probably it would.  My own boy did two tendon injuries within two years, he was in medium work and not a TB race horse - his problem was navicular which of course causes tendon injuries.  He came sound after the first tendon injury in 9 months of field rest.  Had I realised that the heel pain/navicular was the issue at the time he would never have got the second tendon injury or even the first - however it didn't occur to the vets and I had not gathered enough information at the time to realise the cause.  In hindsight, I should have - a horse in medium work should never sustain tendon injuries if all was well in the foot - you live and learn!

But I do understand that its only experience of different injuries that causes you to think, research and not always be guided by your vets, no matter how experienced they are - certainly I now research everything myself rather than relying on my vets - had I done this previously, my horse would probably have certainly not had the tendon issues he had.


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## SLICONNEMARA (19 February 2017)

TheMule said:



			Shocking that in this day and age people still resort to barbaric treatments. 
There are plenty of ways to support check ligament healing. Putting causitc chemicals on the skin is not one of them. Poor horse.
		
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It's don't with a hot pink while the horse is sedated . There's no chemicals on her legs what so ever .


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## Tiddlypom (19 February 2017)

She can stand, therefore is no longer lame? 

Wonderful.


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## SLICONNEMARA (19 February 2017)

sjp1 said:



			Well, I don't know.  I owned an ex racer who had been both bar fired and blistered.  He was sound after this but I owned him several years after this had happened to him.

I do however think that it is the time off that is required that is instrumental in the healing.  Every race horse owner/trainer will understand that a year off firing and blistering is necessary.  Whether a year off in the field without pin or bar firing and blistering would yield the same results I am not sure - I think probably it would.  

Thank you sjp1 . I'm sorry to hear of the navicular . This helps me alot as she's on full livery atm but if she needs a year off she can go home to the farm
		
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## sjp1 (19 February 2017)

SLICONNEMARA said:





sjp1 said:



			Well, I don't know.  I owned an ex racer who had been both bar fired and blistered.  He was sound after this but I owned him several years after this had happened to him.

I do however think that it is the time off that is required that is instrumental in the healing.  Every race horse owner/trainer will understand that a year off firing and blistering is necessary.  Whether a year off in the field without pin or bar firing and blistering would yield the same results I am not sure - I think probably it would.  

Thank you sjp1 . I'm sorry to hear of the navicular . This helps me alot as she's on full livery atm but if she needs a year off she can go home to the farm
		
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If she can go home to the farm, then thats what I would do if I were you, let her go out and be a horse, take her shoes off if she has them on and let her recover.

In a year, she will be sound, and hopefully her feet will have organised themselves, the tendon will have settled and if you are only breeding from her or just hacking and you are happy to control the sugars she receives she will be a different horse.

Fingers crossed for her
		
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## Cortez (19 February 2017)

She will need a year off. It is the year off that results in any improvements that the firing is supposed to make. It's called "sympathetic injury/healing" and has been throughly disproven as a therepeutic technique.  There is a reason why you can't find any information: BECAUSE IT DOES NOT WORK AND IS BARBARIC. It is illegal here, and in most of europe I think. And breeding from a lame mare with "thin legs" is madness, no matter how "lovely" you may think she is. If you think that shoving a red hot needle into horses legs (in a practice which has been proven ineffective) is "not cruel" then I really can't think of anything to discuss with you.


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## ycbm (19 February 2017)

she has long thin legs and even the vet said it's the main cause of this injury .

I want to breed from her because she's a delightful mare and a valued member of the family plus her breeding is impeccable .
		
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Oh dear oh dear I so hope that you are a half term troll.

Because if not, you have a crippled mare which the vet has told you is due to conformational defects and you plan to breed from her.  Surely you cannot be that daft?

Can we have a photo of your lovely mare and the pin firing please?


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## ycbm (19 February 2017)

SLICONNEMARA said:



			It's done with a hot pins while the horse is sedated . There's no chemicals on her legs what so ever .
		
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Cos of course burning right into the ligament with a red hot pin is SO much more humane than burning just the skin with a chemical


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## sjp1 (19 February 2017)

YBCM I do think thats a bit harsh TBH.

People come onto forums to learn - it is only from experience that you learn.  Had I listened to my own vets after my happy hacker had two tendon injuries, he would probably have been PTS.  Its only by going onto forums like this one that you learn from other peoples experiences - in my case I suspected navicular and was right - but I had to push my very experienced equine vets to x ray and nerve block for this.

If I hadn't had horses all my life and thought that equine vets were the be all and the end all, I would probably be no further forward - so isn't it better to try to help people rather than alienate them?


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## ycbm (19 February 2017)

sjp1 said:



			YBCM I do think thats a bit harsh TBH.

People come onto forums to learn - it is only from experience that you learn.  Had I listened to my own vets after my happy hacker had two tendon injuries, he would probably have been PTS.  Its only by going onto forums like this one that you learn from other peoples experiences - in my case I suspected navicular and was right - but I had to push my very experienced equine vets to x ray and nerve block for this.

If I hadn't had horses all my life and thought that equine vets were the be all and the end all, I would probably be no further forward - so isn't it better to try to help people rather than alienate them?
		
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Well I'm open to the explanation of how you think anyone can help someone who has already pin fired their horse (aside from telling her to turn it away for an extended period, which I have) and who plans to breed from a mare with a catastrophic check ligament injury (she couldn't stand and firing is a treatment of last resort)  which the vet has advised her is a result of her conformation.

Fire away, (pun intended).  I'm all ears.


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## ester (19 February 2017)

Has your vet not advised you on the recovery/rest plan?


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## Cortez (19 February 2017)

I'm not going to help anyone who uses an illegal (in my country, and others, but apparently not in yours...), ineffective and inhumane treatment. The time to be helpful was before the poor horse was subjected to this.


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## ycbm (19 February 2017)

Cortez said:



			I'm not going to help anyone who uses an illegal (in my country, and others, but apparently not in yours...), ineffective and inhumane treatment. The time to be helpful was before the poor horse was subjected to this.
		
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I'm gobsmacked to find that the BEVA has stepped back from a complete condemnation of this treatment in the UK, Cortez. You're ahead of us, I hope we catch you up.


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## Magnetic Sparrow (19 February 2017)

I have no expertise in this area, but am interested. There seems to be a school of thought that says by effectively laming the horse by firing or blistering it forces the animal to rest properly while it is acclimatising to the extended turnout. I've certainly had my blood run cold watching an injured horse hooning around when it should have been pottering gently.


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## FfionWinnie (19 February 2017)

Will you get her foal done too as a preventative measure perhaps, since it will quite likely have long thin malfunctioning legs as well.


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## scats (19 February 2017)

Am I right in thinking that it was banned in the UK at some point, albeit briefly?


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## ycbm (19 February 2017)

scats said:



			Am I right in thinking that it was banned in the UK at some point, albeit briefly?
		
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Never banned outright, but the BEVA published a statement that it was unethical and that if a vet was prosecuted for doing it they could not expect any support from them in their defence. They appear to have stepped back a little from that point of view


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## ycbm (19 February 2017)

Magnetic Sparrow said:



			I have no expertise in this area, but am interested. There seems to be a school of thought that says by effectively laming the horse by firing or blistering it forces the animal to rest properly while it is acclimatising to the extended turnout. I've certainly had my blood run cold watching an injured horse hooning around when it should have been pottering gently.
		
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I think it forces the owner to rest the horse because they can see the burns. The theory is that the injury will destroy scar tissue from the previous injury and remove it in the serum which flows from a burn injury.

The only problem is that there is no evidence in the clinical trials which have been done that it actually works.


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## Murphy88 (20 February 2017)

As others have said, firing has been shown to have no effect, therefore her recovery from injury will only be determined by time and the rest/rehab you do with her from this point forward. As a vet, I am astounded and horrified that there are still vets out there that do this.

This is the RCVS statement:
"We have consistently declared that *firing is unethical*. Since the enactment of the Animal Welfare Act 2006, and Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006, it is a criminal offence to carry out a procedure which involves interference with the sensitive tissues or bone structure of an animal (prohibited procedure), other than for the purpose of medical treatment of an animal. While we respect the veterinary surgeon&#8217;s freedom to select a treatment of their choosing, there is *no readily foreseeable justification for the use of firing*. We are unaware of any scientific evidence that suggests the use of firing is therapeutic, so remain of the view that *firing cannot be legitimately undertaken by a veterinary surgeon for the purpose of medical treatment*. In addition to any potential criminal liability, the professional conduct of a veterinary surgeon subjecting a horse to firing in England, Scotland or Wales could be called into question.

While a veterinary surgeon who carries out a prohibited procedure in Northern Ireland may not necessarily commit an offence under the Welfare of Animals Act (Northern Ireland) 2011, their actions could also be the subject of a professional conduct investigation by the RCVS."

So basically, it's not officially illegal and they can't stop a vet doing it but that vet is going to be on their own if any kind of repercussions. Firing is probably one of the few procedures where the RCVS and veterinary bodies will hang a vet out to dry, and rightly so.


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## ester (20 February 2017)

Has there ever been any repercussions of the sort that would require a vet to prefer RCVS assistance? My guess is no which is why quite a few still do it.


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## ycbm (20 February 2017)

ester said:



			Has there ever been any repercussions of the sort that would require a vet to prefer RCVS assistance? My guess is no which is why quite a few still do it.
		
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There's never been a prosecution, afaik. It's lily livered by the RCVS, how do they expect a prosecution to be taken if they won't ban it?


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## be positive (20 February 2017)

Magnetic Sparrow said:



			I have no expertise in this area, but am interested. There seems to be a school of thought that says by effectively laming the horse by firing or blistering it forces the animal to rest properly while it is acclimatising to the extended turnout. I've certainly had my blood run cold watching an injured horse hooning around when it should have been pottering gently.
		
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The horse should not be turned out until the firing has settled, it is not painful by then and the horse should be "sound" from the original injury but not fully ready to return to work, a tendon requires around 12 months to fully heal, the idea is that while the burn marks are obvious the owner will be more happy to leave the horse out nothing to do with stopping it running about, the one that came here was on rest for well over 8 weeks after being fired before he went out and it certainly did not stop him running around.

I am not a believer in firing and am extremely surprised that the OP's vet used this "treatment" as I thought there were very few vets that did it, the one who does most of the racehorses is very old school, semi retired and probably less worried about his reputation than most vets will be.
I still cannot understand why a horse that was almost non weight bearing could appear sound afterwards, the hot pins do not go into the tendon or ligament they go into the skin and should tighten the area but that alone should not make a horse sound, most will be well past the acute stage of injury before firing takes place, I didn't think it would be an option for one still extremely lame and fairly shocked that any vet has done this rather than use the more modern treatments treatments available.

When the ban first came in horses were sent to Ireland to be fired, the RCVS had a turn about based on that so to see it is now illegal over there is a step in the right direction maybe now we can ban it properly and know that that door is closed.


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## hopscotch bandit (20 February 2017)

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/12383/pin-firing

A very useful article on the subject which echoes what the OP has said her vet has said.


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## AandK (20 February 2017)

hopscotch bandit said:



http://www.thehorse.com/articles/12383/pin-firing

A very useful article on the subject which echoes what the OP has said her vet has said.
		
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That is an American article that was written in 2000.   How is it useful?   As many posters above have explained, it has been shown to have no effect and is illlegal in many countries for ethical reasons.  It is barbaric in my opinion.  Chances are, any horse that has been sucessfully rehabed in the past (I had no idea it was still done in this day and age!), will have recovered due to an extended rest period rather than the firing itself.

Why anyone would a) agree to have this done in the first place, and b) think it is a good idea to breed from a horse that has broken down so badly due to conformation - as confirmed by their vet, is beyond my comprehension.  I also don't understand why someone would post on such a subject and ask for no negative comments.   The mind boggles.


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## ycbm (20 February 2017)

hopscotch bandit said:



http://www.thehorse.com/articles/12383/pin-firing

A very useful article on the subject which echoes what the OP has said her vet has said.
		
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The OP hadn't said her vet said anything, just that he did the firing.

If you know what the vet said, then clearly you know the OP very well. Since you are also a newby poster on a very contentious first thread, I suspect that you know him or her inside out


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## hopscotch bandit (20 February 2017)

AandK said:



			That is an American article that was written in 2000.   How is it useful?  

Why anyone would a) agree to have this done in the first place, and b) think it is a good idea to breed from a horse that has broken down so badly due to conformation - as confirmed by their vet, is beyond my comprehension.  

I also don't understand why someone would post on such a subject and ask for no negative comments.
		
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In answer to your first question the article is interesting in so much as it is informative and I felt that there were people that might have found it interesting to read.I certainly found it interesting yes its old but it gives as much information as is required to cover the subject being discussed.

In answer to your second comment I don't personally agree with the procedure and  don't think the OP should breed from such a mare there are enough unwanted animals in this country without breeding more those of which will never lead decent lives due to their conformational problems.

I do understand why the OP has come on here and the reason she asks for no negative comments is probably due to the way the forum has been declining in recent months in terms of the intimidation and persecution of certain groups of people on this forum.

Its up to her what she decides to do with her own horse, rightly or wrongly.  When its backed by the vet there is little that can be gained from putting down someone or making them feel small when they come on this site.  I believe that the poster specifically asked in her original post if anyone has any info on what to expect after the healing and whether her horse could be affiliated after having such a procedure.  I don't know the answer to this as I am more of a dressagey person myself.


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## FfionWinnie (20 February 2017)

hopscotch bandit said:



			I do understand why the OP has come on here and the reason she asks for no negative comments is probably due to the way the forum has been declining in recent months in terms of the intimidation and persecution of certain groups of people on this forum.
		
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Cruelty to animals and utter stupidity was never well tolerated and nor should it be.


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## 9tails (20 February 2017)

hopscotch bandit said:



			In answer to your first question the article is interesting in so much as it is informative and I felt that there were people that might have found it interesting to read.I certainly found it interesting yes its old but it gives as much information as is required to cover the subject being discussed.
		
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By your reckoning we should look more closely at the virtues of lobotomies and blood letting.


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## hopscotch bandit (20 February 2017)

9tails said:



			By your reckoning we should look more closely at the virtues of lobotomies and blood letting.
		
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sorry you have lostme ?


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## AandK (20 February 2017)

hopscotch bandit said:



			In answer to your first question the article is interesting in so much as it is informative and I felt that there were people that might have found it interesting to read.I certainly found it interesting yes its old but it gives as much information as is required to cover the subject being discussed.

In answer to your second comment I don't personally agree with the procedure and  don't think the OP should breed from such a mare there are enough unwanted animals in this country without breeding more those of which will never lead decent lives due to their conformational problems.

I do understand why the OP has come on here and the reason she asks for no negative comments is probably due to the way the forum has been declining in recent months in terms of the intimidation and persecution of certain groups of people on this forum.

Its up to her what she decides to do with her own horse, rightly or wrongly.  When its backed by the vet there is little that can be gained from putting down someone or making them feel small when they come on this site.  I believe that the poster specifically asked in her original post if anyone has any info on what to expect after the healing and whether her horse could be affiliated after having such a procedure.  I don't know the answer to this as I am more of a dressagey person myself.
		
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The problem with that article, and why I asked how it is useful, is that it speaks in agreement of pin firing as a treatment and so is very out of date in that respect, or certainly as far as things go in the UK/Ireland/Europe.  But then I expect the vast majority of articles written on the subject are on the dated side as it is seen as an antiquated and unethical treatment these days.

I have been on this forum for many years, and aside from the odd ongoing spat between specific posters, I do not see the "intimidation and persecution of certain groups of people" that you mention.  Unless you are referring to people who seem to post on subjects such as this, e.g. involving welfare issues, in which case they often deserve the comments they get.  I suspect most do it deliberately, and it's usually easy to spot these posts as the OP will start getting too defensive and claiming they are being bullied and such like.   In cases such as the OP (if the issue is indeed real) the poster would be better off speaking to their vet (a phone call costs nothing) at the very least, instead of posting on a forum.


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## Beausmate (20 February 2017)

9tails said:



			By your reckoning we should look more closely at the virtues of lobotomies and blood letting.
		
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hopscotch bandit said:



			sorry you have lostme ?
		
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They are examples of medical procedures that are both ineffectual and unethical, and are thankfully consigned to the history books.


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## ycbm (20 February 2017)

hopscotch bandit said:



			it gives as much information as is required to cover the subject being discussed..
		
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No it doesn't. It does not make it clear that there is no clinical evidence whatever which supports the deliberate burning of a horse's legs as a method of tendon repair.


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## Casey76 (20 February 2017)

This is interesting, with a very emotive pic which should horrify everyone into never having their horse bar fired

https://www.facebook.com/DrDavidMar...3421046862124/574135759457316/?type=3&theater


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## Pinkvboots (20 February 2017)

Casey76 said:



			This is interesting, with a very emotive pic which should horrify everyone into never having their horse bar fired

https://www.facebook.com/DrDavidMar...3421046862124/574135759457316/?type=3&theater

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I had an ex racer in the 80's that had been line fired he had the scars on his legs just like the ones on that picture although they looked quite old, he was 11 when I got him he was a very well behaved horse so safe to ride but he was very worried about having his front legs touched and would not allow a brush on them, I always ran my hand down the front of his legs when picking his feet out never the back, he wouldn't have the hose on them either nd was always cold shod when I had him, I didn't even think it was something that was done now I actually thought it was illegal in this country.


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## SLICONNEMARA (20 February 2017)

I've read some interesting comments and some plain rude and abusive comments ...

People seem to be very much up their own backsides on this forum and expected better advice ... now my horse will have a home for life and she was PIN FIRED NOT BAR FIRED totally different processes now she hasn't a conformation defect it's simple caused by  overextending, over-flexing or over-rotating and it's not a tendon ...

I actually pitty this narrow mindedness it's the sort of response I expect from trolls on Facebook.. apart from a few which I'm glad of their advice the rest of you should keep your opinion to yourself and I've realised the people who make these negative comments are the type who think just because someone has a Irish accent they are a gypsie


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## SLICONNEMARA (20 February 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			Will you get her foal done too as a preventative measure perhaps, since it will quite likely have long thin malfunctioning legs as well.
		
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It's hardly malfunction when it's caused from overextending, over-flexing or over-rotating ...


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## SLICONNEMARA (20 February 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			Will you get her foal done too as a preventative measure perhaps, since it will quite likely have long thin malfunctioning legs as well.
		
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Not malfunctioning when it's again caused by overextending, over-flexing or over-rotating. Not from structure


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## SLICONNEMARA (20 February 2017)

Maybe instead of calling it barbaric actually keep your comments to yourself because it's not banned and I'm asking for information from people who have had this procedure done...

My horse hasn't malfunctioning legs or bad conformation  it was actually done while out in the field on her Christmas holiday . The vet has already said her legs are fine to take weight of foal but without this it would have been pts and I don't care who frowns on it I will do what ever it takes to keep my horse alive even if she is living on the front garden for the rest of her life and a big bed of shavings every night because I'm not a person who gets rid of a horse or sells it on because it doesn't do a job anymore ..

Yes there is plenty of horses in the world who are not wanted but my horse and her foal will always be at my home and yes I'm lucky enough to have the land to make these dessions 

So please unless you've something interesting and constructive to say don't say nothing


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## Casey76 (20 February 2017)

Well sorry, but if you are going to inflict a barbaric procedure on your beloved horse, you should expect some people to have differing opinions.

Personally I think you should be prosecuted for abuse (as should the person who carried out the procedure).


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## AandK (20 February 2017)

SLICONNEMARA said:



			Maybe instead of calling it barbaric actually keep your comments to yourself because it's not banned and I'm asking for information from people who have had this procedure done...

My horse hasn't malfunctioning legs or bad conformation  it was actually done while out in the field on her Christmas holiday . The vet has already said her legs are fine to take weight of foal but without this it would have been pts and I don't care who frowns on it I will do what ever it takes to keep my horse alive even if she is living on the front garden for the rest of her life and a big bed of shavings every night because I'm not a person who gets rid of a horse or sells it on because it doesn't do a job anymore ..

Yes there is plenty of horses in the world who are not wanted but my horse and her foal will always be at my home and yes I'm lucky enough to have the land to make these dessions 

So please unless you've something interesting and constructive to say don't say nothing
		
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This is a forum, with a large cross section of people who use it.  If you post a thread, then you will invariably get people who agree with you, and people who don't.  If you don't like the fact people have a differing opinon than you on this, then I suggest you look elsewhere for advice, or you could just ignore the posts that bother you.

You said yourself you could not find much on the internet about it, and there is good reason for that.   You will be hard pushed to find people on a forum like this that have horses who have had this procedure done recently (I am sure there are many that have older ex racers or hunters that were fired maqny years ago) so perhaps you would be better speaking to your vet about rehab.   As with any ligament injury, rest is key.  If your vet thinks your horses legs will stand to carry a foal then she is your horse, crack on, but your post earlier stated your vet said the injury was due to her having 'long, thin legs' hence why people are questioning you breeding from her.   

Firing aside, if this were my horse, after the initial box rest I would turn her away in a big field 24/7 for at least a year, and then think about bringing back into work or putting into foal.   I see no reason why she wouldn't be able to live out, or do affiliated competitions, but only lots of time and a gradual return to work will tell if she will stay sound in the long term.


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## Fidgety (20 February 2017)

SLICONNEMARA said:



			I've read some interesting comments and some plain rude and abusive comments ...

People seem to be very much up their own backsides on this forum and expected better advice ... now my horse will have a home for life and she was PIN FIRED NOT BAR FIRED totally different processes now she hasn't a conformation defect it's simple caused by  overextending, over-flexing or over-rotating and it's not a tendon ...

I actually pitty this narrow mindedness it's the sort of response I expect from trolls on Facebook.. apart from a few which I'm glad of their advice the rest of you should keep your opinion to yourself and I've realised the people who make these negative comments are the type who think just because someone has a Irish accent they are a gypsie
		
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Whilst we're busy generalising, this is exactly the kind of comment that comes when a poster doesn't get the kind of replies they were seeking - positive, agreeing, supportive of the OP kind of posts.  Good old HHO for yet again being vocal about the welfare of the animal over the ego of the poster.


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## SpringArising (20 February 2017)

SLICONNEMARA said:



			I don't care who frowns on it I will do what ever it takes to keep my horse alive even if she is living on the front garden for the rest of her life and a big bed of shavings every night because I'm not a person who gets rid of a horse or sells it on because it doesn't do a job anymore
		
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So at what point do you take the welfare of the animal into consideration in all this? You would keep her alive at whatever cost irregardless of her welfare?


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## FfionWinnie (20 February 2017)

SLICONNEMARA said:



			Not malfunctioning when it's again caused by overextending, over-flexing or over-rotating. Not from structure
		
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Er sorry but why do her legs over extend, over flex or over rotate if they aren't malfunctioning / poorly conformed ie the structure is faulty. 

I suppose at the end of the day there are none so blind as those who do not want to see. Good luck to your horse, she's going to need it.


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## ester (20 February 2017)

SLICONNEMARA said:



			I've read some interesting comments and some plain rude and abusive comments ...

People seem to be very much up their own backsides on this forum and expected better advice ... now my horse will have a home for life and she was PIN FIRED NOT BAR FIRED totally different processes now she hasn't a conformation defect it's simple caused by  overextending, over-flexing or over-rotating and it's not a tendon ...

I actually pitty this narrow mindedness it's the sort of response I expect from trolls on Facebook.. apart from a few which I'm glad of their advice the rest of you should keep your opinion to yourself and I've realised the people who make these negative comments are the type who think just because someone has a Irish accent they are a gypsie
		
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err can you explain how pin and bar firing are totally different processes please? In particular with regard to 1) the physics, and 2) the outcomes? (the references mentioned in the summary by David, posted by casey include both).
Why you were the one to say that your horse has 




			But if she never had this procedure she wouldn't really live a normal life as she has long thin legs and even the vet said it's the main cause of this injury .
		
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 Yet now you think they aren't a structural issue so she is fine to breed from. 
The fact that she injured herself in the field not even performing hard makes this worse too btw. 

Has your vet really not discussed rehab and outcomes with you?


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## ycbm (20 February 2017)

ester said:



			err can you explain how pin and bar firing are totally different processes please?
		
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One burns only from the outside, bar firing. In the other, red hot pins are actually inserted right through the skin into the tendon/ligament itself !

SLIconnemara any chance of some photos?


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## ycbm (20 February 2017)

it's the sort of response I expect from trolls on Facebook.. a
		
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Takes one to know one?


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## ester (20 February 2017)

I'm unconvinced by 'totally different'


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## FfionWinnie (20 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			Takes one to know one?
		
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Watch you don't go upsetting the Applecart.


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## Pearlsasinger (20 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			I'm gobsmacked to find that the BEVA has stepped back from a complete condemnation of this treatment in the UK, Cortez. You're ahead of us, I hope we catch you up.
		
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I am astounded because I read recently that the reason firing hasn't been outlawed here, is that horses would just be transported over to Ireland to have it done. Perhaps BEVA should do better research!


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## ycbm (20 February 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			Watch you don't go upsetting the Applecart.
		
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It was fairly obvious, wasn't it? 

Applecart, you left the forum last week for good reason. There is no point coming back immediately with the same complaints as you've always had about bullying. I'm concerned that if you stay and continue in this way you will find yourself mocked and more hounded than you were before   Please have a rethink.


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## ycbm (20 February 2017)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I am astounded because I read recently that the reason firing hasn't been outlawed here, is that horses would just be transported over to Ireland to have it done. Perhaps BEVA should do better research!
		
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I was shocked by that too PaS. I can hardly believe that Ireland have banned it and we haven't


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## stencilface (20 February 2017)

FfionWinnie said:



			Watch you don't go upsetting the Applecart.
		
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How do you people do this?! I was oblivious! It's a permanent state of mind clearly 

I've read this post since it started but couldn't comment as I'm pretty sure the only recent firing of legs I've seen has been on the pfk Facebook page.


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## FfionWinnie (20 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			It was fairly obvious, wasn't it? 

Applecart, you left the forum last week for good reason. There is no point coming back immediately with the same complaints as you've always had about bullying. I'm concerned that if you stay and continue in this way you will find yourself mocked and more hounded than you were before   Please have a rethink.
		
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But she wasn't mocked and hounded it's self fulfilling prophecy!


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## FfionWinnie (20 February 2017)

stencilface said:



			How do you people do this?! I was oblivious! It's a permanent state of mind clearly 

I've read this post since it started but couldn't comment as I'm pretty sure the only recent firing of legs I've seen has been on the pfk Facebook page.
		
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I have to admit I had help with this one although I realised it was someone known I hadn't put a lot of thought into it. However I couldn't resist the quip. Bad FW.


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## Mrs B (20 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			Applecart, you left the forum last week for good reason. There is no point coming back immediately with the same complaints as you've always had about bullying. I'm concerned that if you stay and continue in this way you will find yourself mocked and more hounded than you were before   Please have a rethink.
		
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Errr ... rights and wrongs aside, you might want to recheck that comment for its iron(y) content.


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## PorkChop (20 February 2017)

stencilface said:



			How do you people do this?! I was oblivious! It's a permanent state of mind clearly 

Click to expand...

Gawd, glad I am not the only one, doesn't even occur to me!


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## ycbm (20 February 2017)

Mrs B said:



			Errr ... rights and wrongs aside, you might want to recheck that comment for its iron(y) content.
		
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No irony. I'm a returner. I waited a while and when I came back I did so very slowly and modified my style deliberately and carefully so as to upset fewer people. I have supported Applecart on several threads in the past because there is no doubt for me that she is followed around the forum by a core of people who know how easy it is to upset her. (For a good example, check out the hostility on her thread about an overheated office.) I knew who she was and was not going to out her.   It's not, ime, sensible for her to be back so soon and to continue on the same path of complaining about bullies on the forum. She has simply made even more of a target for herself, unfortunately 

I wish her well.


Irony count zero.


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## Mrs B (20 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			No irony. I'm a returner. I waited a while and when I came back I did so very slowly and modified my style deliberately and carefully so as to upset fewer people. I have supported Applecart on several threads in the past because there is no doubt for me that she is followed around the forum by a core of people who know how easy it is to upset her. (For a good example, check out the hostility on her thread about an overheated office.) I knew who she was and was not going to out her.   It's not, ime, sensible for her to be back so soon and to continue on the same path of complaining about bullies on the forum. She has simply made even more of a target for herself, unfortunately 

I wish her well.


Irony count zero.
		
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No, not really. Leopards and spots. You haven't actually changed at all: not your fault, you just can't do it. Hence my suggestion that you think about house construction carefully before casting too many pebbles. You start out ok, then you get on a thread like this and just have to keep piling in  ... and don't know when to stop.


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## ycbm (20 February 2017)

Mrs B said:



			No, not really. Leopards and spots. You haven't actually changed at all: not your fault, you just can't do it. Hence my suggestion that you think about house construction carefully before casting too many pebbles. You start out ok, then you get on a thread like this and just have to keep piling in  ... and don't know when to stop.
		
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And a Merry Christmas to you too


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## ester (20 February 2017)

changed mind.


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## AandK (21 February 2017)

Is this really AC? I don't see it, how can you be sure? There are pics of someone else in the OP profile, but then I guess you could lift off the internet...


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## ester (21 February 2017)

She isn't the OP she is hopscotch bandit.


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## AandK (21 February 2017)

Righty ho, I see!!


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## 9tails (21 February 2017)

If the OP is Applecart, she's returned to deliberately cause havoc.  Who in their right mind posts about having their horse pin fired, knowing it will rile up most posters.  So if it is Applecart, maybe we should suggest she get professional help for MH issues?


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## ester (21 February 2017)

see my comment above.


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## Goldenstar (21 February 2017)

ycbm said:



			No it doesn't. It does not make it clear that there is no clinical evidence whatever which supports the deliberate burning of a horse's legs as a method of tendon repair.
		
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Exactly , at one time people did these things to horses because they knew no better it is unforgivable nowadays as is breeding from lame horses when the world is full of horses bred from unsound mare unable to find necent homes .


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## Crosshill Pacers (21 February 2017)

I bought a horse at public auction which had been pin fired as white marks visible on both hocks.  My guess is he'd suffered from curbs.  Looking back through his racing career he didn't miss a season from 3-6 (at which time I sold him as a rider) so again, my guess is it was done when he was perhaps being broken at 2.

Can't say how long he was off work for, chances are it was done after being broken with the intention of not racing him for another 12 months but cannot confirm.  Never had a day's bother in the whole time he was with me with that part of his anatomy and I had him in 100% race fitness.

I'm not playing devil's advocate, I'm just saying I had a horse who had the procedure done and it appeared to have worked for its purpose, before anyone turns on me!


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## Pinkvboots (21 February 2017)

SLICONNEMARA said:



			Maybe instead of calling it barbaric actually keep your comments to yourself because it's not banned and I'm asking for information from people who have had this procedure done...

My horse hasn't malfunctioning legs or bad conformation  it was actually done while out in the field on her Christmas holiday . The vet has already said her legs are fine to take weight of foal but without this it would have been pts and I don't care who frowns on it I will do what ever it takes to keep my horse alive even if she is living on the front garden for the rest of her life and a big bed of shavings every night because I'm not a person who gets rid of a horse or sells it on because it doesn't do a job anymore ..

Yes there is plenty of horses in the world who are not wanted but my horse and her foal will always be at my home and yes I'm lucky enough to have the land to make these dessions 

So please unless you've something interesting and constructive to say don't say nothing
		
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you will do whatever it takes to keep your horse alive! even if her quality of life is comprised living in a front garden is no life for a horse, this kind of thinking is purely for selfish owners who will keep an animal alive at whatever cost, sorry but if you come on here saying things like that you will get negative comments, sometimes just being alive is not all its cracked up to be it's how the animal is living is what is important and carrying out unecessary procedures just so your horse can just about stand is cruel.


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## ycbm (21 February 2017)

Crosshill Pacers said:



			I'm not playing devil's advocate, I'm just saying I had a horse who had the procedure done and it appeared to have worked for its purpose, before anyone turns on me!
		
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Plenty of evidence that the rest will have produced the right result and none at all that it was the firing. I've seen quite a few sound fired horses, it used to be very common before it was proved it didn't do anything except convince the owner to give the horse a long enough rest.


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## Fairynuff (21 February 2017)

worked in an equine clinic back in the 80s and early 90s. Pin firing was very common in the 80s and I helped out with the firing of knees, tendons and hocks. Once they were fired my job was to rub in red mercury paste and then do the after care. Not very pleasent and extremely smelly. Not one horse showed signs of pain (pain relief given ) and not one horse lost his appetite. All returned to their discipline and all remained sound , at least the ones who lived in the area. I recently blistered (on vets advice) one of my liveries. He blew a tendon for the second time so owner and vet decided together the course of action. I have a photographic diary of before, during and after if anyone would be interested to see it. Do I still need to download from fotobucket ?  The horse is now completely sound although he could play a whole string quartet with that one leg  I got hell on FB with some extremely nasty comments thrown in for good measure but I would do it again


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## Fairynuff (21 February 2017)

Crosshill Pacers said:



			I bought a horse at public auction which had been pin fired as white marks visible on both hocks.  My guess is he'd suffered from curbs.  Looking back through his racing career he didn't miss a season from 3-6 (at which time I sold him as a rider) so again, my guess is it was done when he was perhaps being broken at 2.

Can't say how long he was off work for, chances are it was done after being broken with the intention of not racing him for another 12 months but cannot confirm.  Never had a day's bother in the whole time he was with me with that part of his anatomy and I had him in 100% race fitness.

I'm not playing devil's advocate, I'm just saying I had a horse who had the procedure done and it appeared to have worked for its purpose, before anyone turns on me!
		
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it does work


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## Tiddlypom (21 February 2017)

Fairynuff said:



			it does work 

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No, it doesn't. It's now known that it's the enforced rest period afterwards that works, as mentioned by various folk upthread. No need to pin or bar fire at all.


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## Fairynuff (21 February 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			No, it doesn't. It's now known that it's the enforced rest period afterwards that works, as mentioned by various folk upthread. No need to pin or bar fire at all.
		
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not going to argue with you


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## Cortez (21 February 2017)

Fairynuff said:



			not going to argue with you 

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*The clanging noise of a closed mind reverberates.................


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## ester (21 February 2017)

Damn that evidence based medicine. 

saying it does work reminds me a little of the lady recently who said she didn't need facts to know that Obama was not born in the USA, so long as she believed it.


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## laura_nash (21 February 2017)

Casey76 said:



			Well sorry, but if you are going to inflict a barbaric procedure on your beloved horse, you should expect some people to have differing opinions.

Personally I think you should be prosecuted for abuse (as should the person who carried out the procedure).
		
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Agreed.  The whole basis of this thread is mad.  You really can't expect to not get negative comments if you openly admit on a public forum to having an abusive and probably illegal procedure carried out on your horse.


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## Fairynuff (21 February 2017)

Cortez said:



			*The clanging noise of a closed mind reverberates.................
		
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Ive heard all the arguments and can't be bothered to repeat myself time and time again.


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## Fairynuff (21 February 2017)

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/12383/pin-firing


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## milliepops (21 February 2017)

Fairynuff said:



http://www.thehorse.com/articles/12383/pin-firing

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lol  

is it groundhog day??!


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## AandK (21 February 2017)

Fairynuff said:



			Ive heard all the arguments and can't be bothered to repeat myself time and time again. 

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I wonder why...  If it works and is humane, then why is it not used regularly anymore?  There is good reason why you got abuse on FB for posting about blistering a horse yourself, barbaric.   Would you treat yourself with this method if you had a tendon or ligament injury?


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## AandK (21 February 2017)

milliepops said:



			lol  

is it groundhog day??!
		
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Ah yes, that up to date article from the year 2000!  Perhaps we should pass it on to the RCVS?!


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## Fairynuff (21 February 2017)

I did not prescribe the treatment. The vet did.The owner agreed to the treatment prescribed. As the horse is on full livery on my yard I was the one to carry out the treatment.


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## milliepops (21 February 2017)

AandK said:



			Ah yes, that up to date article from the year 2000!  Perhaps we should pass it on to the RCVS?!
		
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yeah why not. And if we can get another 100 posts on this thread someone will be able to post it for the THIRD TIME on page 6!!


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## AandK (21 February 2017)

milliepops said:



			yeah why not. And if we can get another 100 posts on this thread someone will be able to post it for the THIRD TIME on page 6!! 

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Haha...  Third time's a charm :wink3:


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## AandK (21 February 2017)

Fairynuff said:



			I did not prescribe the treatment. The vet did.The owner agreed to the treatment prescribed. As the horse is on full livery on my yard I was the one to carry out the treatment.
		
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I see you are in Italy, is it a routine treatment out there?  I am dumbfounded that anyone thinks putting caustic chemicals onto an animals skin is going to do them any good, but that's just me...   Would you use the same treatment for yourself?


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## FfionWinnie (21 February 2017)

Fairynuff said:



			I did not prescribe the treatment. The vet did.The owner agreed to the treatment prescribed. As the horse is on full livery on my yard I was the one to carry out the treatment.
		
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Are you a vet??


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## Cortez (21 February 2017)

AandK said:



			I see you are in Italy, is it a routine treatment out there?  I am dumbfounded that anyone thinks putting caustic chemicals onto an animals skin is going to do them any good, but that's just me...   Would you use the same treatment for yourself?
		
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Blistering used to be used on people too....in the Middle Ages.


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## AandK (21 February 2017)

Cortez said:



			Blistering used to be used on people too....in the Middle Ages.
		
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Says it all really...


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## Goldenstar (21 February 2017)

Cortez said:



			*The clanging noise of a closed mind reverberates.................
		
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There's no point investing energy into this you just have to pity the horses and keep your own safe .


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## Murphy88 (21 February 2017)

Fairynuff said:



http://www.thehorse.com/articles/12383/pin-firing

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I have been qualified as a vet for 6 years. I was 12 when that article came out. To say it is not relevant or evidence-based would be somewhat of an understatement. 

The joy of evidence based medicine is that we are always updating our knowledge. By the time I got to vet school, firing was being discussed as an unethical procedure with no effect, so this isn't even a new way of thinking. I note that the vet who wrote that article qualified in the early 1960's. Some of the best vets I have ever worked with qualified in that era, but those are the ones who continue to educate themselves on updates in veterinary medicine rather than coast by on knowledge 40 years out of date.


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## charlie76 (21 February 2017)

My horse had a serious check ligament injury, he was box rested for six months, then walked in hand for weeks and weeks slowly upping the time he walked for until I could ride him. We then did road hacking for what seemed forever building it up to two hours, he then started trotting, and eventually cantering. Any sign of heat or swelling and we went back to road walking. He wasn't turned out until he was back in full work. It seemed like forever but the patience and hard work paid off and he has just done his first advanced dressage test . He had some residule swelling so I had shock wave done and you now would never know he had done it. I am careful of the going and won't ride him in clay type mud. Other than that he is just normal. Time is the best healer.
I'm not sure as to why they fired her. if she was unable to stand surely she would have been put down? Weird.


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## Damnation (22 February 2017)

I honestly thought that this didn't go on anymore in the UK for reasons other people have suggested - it is barbaric!  

If any vet suggested bar or pin firing to me I'd be swapping vets ASAP.


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## conniegirl (22 February 2017)

I had a pony who did both suspensory and check ligament on the same leg at the same time. Vet (Leahurst) was very admanat the pny would never be ridden again due to the extent of the damage. they did think he would be field sound which given the pony was 18 years old and owed me nothing we aimed for. Given 6 months box rest, 12 months paddock rest, and a good 6 months of road work and slowly bringing back into work the pony went out and won open M&M classes at county shows. Unless pointed out you would never have known he had the injury.

I would have had him PTS before doing something as barbaric as firing him


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## hopscotch bandit (22 February 2017)

9tails said:



			If the OP is Applecart, she's returned to deliberately cause havoc.  Who in their right mind posts about having their horse pin fired, knowing it will rile up most posters.  So if it is Applecart, maybe we should suggest she get professional help for MH issues?
		
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What a really spiteful and unnecessary thing to say about someone. I am certainly not AC14 but what I am in the very proud sister of someone who has fought MH issues all her life and find it quite demeaning that you should ridicule someone in this way. 


Cortez said:



			*The clanging noise of a closed mind reverberates.................
		
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I should think the OP feels like this too.  Her question in her OP was "But has anyone info on what to expect after the healing??"It was not give her 11 pages of abuse about how I have wronged my horse. 



conniegirl said:



			I had a pony who did both suspensory and check ligament on the same leg at the same time. Vet (Leahurst) was very admanat the pny would never be ridden again due to the extent of the damage. they did think he would be field sound which given the pony was 18 years old and owed me nothing we aimed for. Given 6 months box rest, 12 months paddock rest, and a good 6 months of road work and slowly bringing back into work the pony went out and won open M&M classes at county shows. Unless pointed out you would never have known he had the injury.

I would have had him PTS before doing something as barbaric as firing him
		
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Indeed time is a great healer but the original poster did say that theyhad taken advice from their vet. surely this would suggest that their vet is negligent rather than they are themselves. I said in my last post that I didn't agree/disagree with pinfiring and I have heard to sides of the argument. I prefer to siton the fence when it is a subject that isn't close to my hear or that I have experience with.I do agree that to breed for the mare would be unfair and a waste of time.


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## conniegirl (22 February 2017)

hopscotch bandit said:



			What a really spiteful and unnecessary thing to say about someone. I am certainly not AC14 but what I am in the very proud sister of someone who has fought MH issues all her life and find it quite demeaning that you should ridicule someone in this way. 

I should think the OP feels like this too.  Her question in her OP was "But has anyone info on what to expect after the healing??"It was not give her 11 pages of abuse about how I have wronged my horse. 


Indeed time is a great healer but the original poster did say that they had taken advice from their vet. surely this would suggest that their vet is negligent rather than they are themselves. I said in my last post that I didn't agree/disagree with pinfiring and I have heard to sides of the argument. I prefer to siton the fence when it is a subject that isn't close to my hear or that I have experience with.I do agree that to breed for the mare would be unfair and a waste of time.
		
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Sorry but before doing anything major to my horse I will always research what the vet advises so that I am fully informed of what I am about to put my horse through. Even a very small amount of research on pin firing proves it is downright cruel.
I believe any horse owner should do research before putting thier horse through major vet interventions (except in emergency situations like a horse dieing of colic). So yes I consider the owner as negligent here.
If a vet suggested firing (of any form) to me I would be reporting to the BCVS immediately.


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## AandK (22 February 2017)

hopscotch bandit said:



			What a really spiteful and unnecessary thing to say about someone. I am certainly not AC14 but what I am in the very proud sister of someone who has fought MH issues all her life and find it quite demeaning that you should ridicule someone in this way. 

I should think the OP feels like this too.  Her question in her OP was "But has anyone info on what to expect after the healing??"It was not give her 11 pages of abuse about how I have wronged my horse. 


Indeed time is a great healer but the original poster did say that theyhad taken advice from their vet. surely this would suggest that their vet is negligent rather than they are themselves. I said in my last post that I didn't agree/disagree with pinfiring and I have heard to sides of the argument. I prefer to siton the fence when it is a subject that isn't close to my hear or that I have experience with.I do agree that to breed for the mare would be unfair and a waste of time.
		
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I guess you are a friend of AC then as your friend's horse has had all the same issues her horse had.

That aside, if your vet advised you to walk your horse off a cliff would you?  Sorry to be so blunt, but if a medical professional advised me that the bext course of action was to stick red hot pins through my horses legs, I would wave them goodbye and get a second opinion, as well as reporting them to the RCVS.


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## ester (22 February 2017)

Odd how no one else mentioned applecart having a number after their name for a newbie to know it.


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## ycbm (22 February 2017)

hopscotch bandit said:



			What a really spiteful and unnecessary thing to say about someone. I am certainly not AC14 but what I am in the very proud sister of someone who has fought MH issues all her life and find it quite demeaning that you should ridicule someone in this way.
		
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The quote was not demeaning or ridiculing anyone. *IF*  the original poster had been AC14, and she had returned with a post about firing days after leaving the forum due to how stressful she was finding it, then it *would* indicate mental health issues to have done that.

9 tails just mistook who it was being suggested was AC14

I'm sorry if I have mistaken you as being AC14. Your vocabulary, tone, complaints and the experiences you or a friend has had with their horse, which you talk about on other threads,  are so similar that it is difficult to believe otherwise .  If you aren't, and intend to stay, then you will need to drop the constant complaints about harassment, like the ones on this thread,  if you are going to have a happy time, I'm afraid.

I don't think you need to worry about this person being bullied. I don't actually believe this horse exists, I think is a half term troll. I won't believe it until I see photos. For the sake of the horse, I hope they can't be provided.


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## fburton (22 February 2017)

So... what _is_ the best way to convey the message on this forum that pin firing is a discredited form of treatment, illegal in some countries (for good reason), and likely to have welfare implications? Obviously the replies in this thread gets the message across in no uncertain terms to anyone reading it, but OP specifically asked for no negative comments.

I suppose the potential welfare of other horses has to be balanced against the feelings of the person asking the question.


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## Leo Walker (22 February 2017)

ester said:



			Odd how no one else mentioned applecart having a number after their name for a newbie to know it.
		
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I noticed that! But HBs other posts dont add up. She talks about BD and about a dressage saddle she has thats for petite riders, and AC14 was always saying she was a larger lady. She also posted about riding plans and working till 6 whereas AC14 has posted loads of times about leaving early. Plus AC14 googled everything and copied and pasted it. HBs posts dont read like that.

Maybe I'm just too trusting but thats one hell of an elaborate set up if it is her!


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## ester (22 February 2017)

Only the recent posts have gone off track from standard a little. All previous posts fit the spec including the favourite reference website being posted on this thread.
And new people wouldn't say how they had heard from 'a friend' that the forum had gone downhill and got mean/cliquey whatever the words used were- if a friend told you that why would you join? or that 'a friend' tells you that lots of people have multiple usernames on here.

It only bothers me because I don't like people being duped, and I really like this forum so I don't like anyone continually slating it while hanging around or having a big tantrum about how awful it is and then coming back.


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## Goldenstar (22 February 2017)

TBH what does it matter if one poster used to be another .
Who cares if some poster thinks the forum has gone down hill no one forces them to post, they can trot off were ever they like .
Any one who supports firing (which is an entirely discredited ' treatment 'in fact it was discredited when I was training and that's nearly forty years ago ) is going to get negative comments and quite right too.


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## gunnergundog (22 February 2017)

ester said:



			Only the recent posts have gone off track from standard a little. All previous posts fit the spec including the favourite reference website being posted on this thread.
And new people wouldn't say how they had heard from 'a friend' that the forum had gone downhill and got mean/cliquey whatever the words used were- if a friend told you that why would you join? or that 'a friend' tells you that lots of people have multiple usernames on here.

It only bothers me because I don't like people being duped, and I really like this forum so I don't like anyone continually slating it while hanging around or having a big tantrum about how awful it is and then coming back.
		
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There is a post somewhere from this person that says they have or had a cairn.  Sorry, but can't be bothered to find it right now. Applecart and her other half had beagles - I know only through having competed for years at SRC in the 70's/80's/early 90's.  I 'know' Colin  (the other half) as a result, but have never met/spoken to Applecart.  So is this someone different or a red herring to throw people off the scent.  Who knows?  Who cares?  This forum is getting beyond belief.


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## Tiddlypom (22 February 2017)

It's recent big news that Thistlecrack is out of the Cheltenham Gold Cup with a tendon injury.

I'm sure that his connections want the best treatment for him. Do you think that they ever considered firing?

Me neither.


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## JanetGeorge (23 February 2017)

I think the OP is either a **** - or aiming to wind you all up (and succeeding.)  Google shows plenty about pinfiring (I haven't seen it done in the last 40 years!)  The only 'benefit' to it then was making owners leave horses in the field for 6 months.  Rest did the rest.


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## paddy555 (23 February 2017)

JanetGeorge said:



			I think the OP is either a **** - or aiming to wind you all up (and succeeding.)  Google shows plenty about pinfiring (I haven't seen it done in the last 40 years!)  The only 'benefit' to it then was making owners leave horses in the field for 6 months.  Rest did the rest.
		
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haven't read all this thread however I saw a case of pin firing (England) only 5 years ago on a horse newly fired. I was surprised to see it as I thought of the time it was illegal so presumably it still goes on.


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## Goldenstar (23 February 2017)

paddy555 said:



			haven't read all this thread however I saw a case of pin firing (England) only 5 years ago on a horse newly fired. I was surprised to see it as I thought of the time it was illegal so presumably it still goes on.
		
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I think pin firing with a poker has not been done in a long while but I have seen horses pin fired with acid in more recent times .


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## paddy555 (24 February 2017)

Goldenstar said:



			I think pin firing with a poker has not been done in a long while but I have seen horses pin fired with acid in more recent times .
		
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this was with the poker. I was unable to ask where it was done but I think Ireland came into the conversation. It was pretty barbaric where ever it was done. I remember seeing it quite a lot in the early 70's which was around 40 plus years ago.


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## Achinghips (26 February 2017)

Troll, there's a troll in the basement!


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## albeg (26 February 2017)

Achinghips said:



			Troll, there's a troll in the basement!
		
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Dungeon! *faints*


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## onemoretime (27 February 2017)

Cortez said:



			I thought firing (pin or bar) was illegal? It certainly is here in Ireland.
		
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  I was thinking that Cortez.  I thought it was banned a long time ago.


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## onemoretime (27 February 2017)

AandK said:



			I wonder why...  If it works and is humane, then why is it not used regularly anymore?  There is good reason why you got abuse on FB for posting about blistering a horse yourself, barbaric.   Would you treat yourself with this method if you had a tendon or ligament injury?
		
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  I didn't think you  could still buy red blister?


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## sywell (27 February 2017)

SpringArising said:



			What's your reason for wanting to breed from her? Also why put extra strain on already questionable legs?
		
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You should only breed from sound top quality mares.


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## AandK (28 February 2017)

onemoretime said:



			I didn't think you  could still buy red blister?
		
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I have no idea.  They said the vet gave them the stuff to do it themselves, poster is in Italy.


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## Auslander (28 February 2017)

sywell said:



			You should only breed from sound top quality mares.
		
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For the sake of new/novice/nervous riders, I would be inclined to say "Sound, well put together mares who are suitable for the job they are required to do".


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