# Mare is officially retired, down to 3 stallions, opinions?



## madhector (15 April 2010)

This is the mare..







Would be to breed an eventer, not too huge with plently of blood!

So far my shortlist is - 

Jigilo 
Axis
Cristobal

My worry about Jigilo is that the cross will be too irish, and not blood typey enough.

Axis looks fab, but worried he will pass on the brains and guts for eventing. Plus concerned he might be too chunky???

Cristobal again looks like a smashing event type, but not proven so who knows what his temprement is like?


So, peoples thoughts on those 3? Plus any other suggestions? Must have excellent front feet!!!


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## Clodagh (15 April 2010)

Just to not help at all when I was choosing a stallion for my mare my vet said as shes a cross breed you never know what genes are going to pop up, so go for a closed stud book, which for me meant tb. 
Sorry....runs and hides!!


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## madhector (15 April 2010)

Thats interesting, I was a bit concerned that putting her to another ISH might result in some irish throwback....!


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## Clodagh (15 April 2010)

Mines TB x ID and didn't want anythnig too huge. Your mare is gorgeous though, much more blood than my lovely Dixie.


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## volatis (15 April 2010)

Trakehner is a closed stud book bar arab and Tb so breeds pretty true to type, so you should be OK on that front


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## Clodagh (15 April 2010)

And there speaks someone who actually knows what they are talking about!


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## eventrider23 (15 April 2010)

Of those three I would go for Cristobal!  Love the look of this horse!


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## harrietltb (15 April 2010)

I was going to respond to you other thread, but you look like you're not totally convinced by your own list.  Axis is a super dressage horse and will make the same, I'm not convinced that he is right for eventing.  Jigilo is unproven but a nice horse.  Cristobal is very nice, but has no competition record or any offspring on the ground.  

I think you need to add what the clever money are using to your list.

Grafenstolz - except for Jumbo and Opposition, the only stallion mentioned in recent weeks who actually has two offspring in the top 1000 eventing horses in the world (actually they are in the top 600 and they are only 7, his oldest crop).  There are a few on this forum who claim he has a hot temperament and that his offspring are pro rides, but they always seem to be in the anti Ken brigade.  From what I've seen he's a very quiet horse, he must have been to go PSG and Inter I in less than five months.  I got a link sent through the other day of a filly of Grafenstolz, she looks like an amateur ride:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ohQ7qAo1Qs

Mighty Magic - 89.06% thoroughbred and Vice World Champion at Le Lion last year in the six year olds, but only foals/yearlings on the ground, but with Mytens and Heraldik you surely can't go wrong.  He's only available via fresh semen, but you'll get a live foal guarantee at Jamie's place it says.

Royaldik - no one has seen any offspring eventing (but that doesn't mean they aren't, just that they will be in Germany), but his jump and movement are super, and surely yo uhave to take his mother seriously (she's the full sister of Heraldik).  the 700 price compares very well.  He covered Headley Brittania, Little Tiger and Penny Royal last year.

Jaguar Mail - I've already comented on another thread, but I'm told that his fresh semen is available this year and they've dropped his price to 1600.


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## madhector (15 April 2010)

eventrider23 said:



			Of those three I would go for Cristobal!  Love the look of this horse!
		
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I think he is my favourite too....just something about him....


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## madhector (15 April 2010)

Harriet - thanks, usful info!

I discounted Jaguar Mail, purely because I dont think my mares jump is pingy enough, (plenty of score but not exceptionally neat infront, although careful enough) plus he is quite big...

I worried that Grafenstolz's feet werent perfect?? So worried about getting this right....


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## madhector (15 April 2010)

volatis said:



			Trakehner is a closed stud book bar arab and Tb so breeds pretty true to type, so you should be OK on that front
		
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Right, thats good. TBH I was erring towards trakehners more than ISH, but just something about Jigilo I like.


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## harrietltb (15 April 2010)

"I worried that Grafenstolz's feet werent perfect?? So worried about getting this right.... "  

Another HHO faux factoid, do you see how this happens?  One person makes a comment and in seconds it becomes fact.  As I said on here a few weeks ago, wasn't he approved by 13 different major stud books around the world?  Did they all miss these alleged feet, along with the twisted leg of course.  Here's a little quiz:  at the time the "international judge" made the alleged comment about Grafenstolz's comformation, which other stallion was in the ring at Burghley at the same time, who actually failed his approval because of the very same alleged defect? Answers on a postcard please.

I suggest you go to Pelion Stud and take a look for your self, I'm sure your own eye will serve you better than the axe grinding rumour mill.


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## carlo_mio (15 April 2010)

harrietltb said:



			"I worried that Grafenstolz's feet werent perfect?? So worried about getting this right.... "  

Another HHO faux factoid, do you see how this happens?  One person makes a comment and in seconds it becomes fact.  As I said on here a few weeks ago, wasn't he approved by 13 different major stud books around the world?  Did they all miss these alleged feet, along with the twisted leg of course.  Here's a little quiz:  at the time the "international judge" made the alleged comment about Grafenstolz's comformation, which other stallion was in the ring at Burghley at the same time, who actually failed his approval because of the very same alleged defect? Answers on a postcard please.

I suggest you go to Pelion Stud and take a look for your self, I'm sure your own eye will serve you better than the axe grinding rumour mill.
		
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Well my friend it is interesting to see that almost all your posts seem to relate to the stallions that are owned or represented by a Mr Rehill so personally I would take a bit of salt with your remarks.  Also I prefer to hear positive news about a horse and not attacks on others.  A good stallion speaks for himself so why go about knocking others?  Please let us return to good objective advice - for instance I feel I learn a lot on a thread like this from those who have a passion for a breed like volatis and also have interesting recommendations of stallions that are new names to me


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## kerilli (15 April 2010)

i wouldn't put an IDxTB on an IDxTB, no real way of knowing how chunky an offspring you might get.
i think Axis won the jumping part of his performance test, plenty of jump for eventing. Darren Chiaccia bought his stallion son Ballzeuger (renamed since) to be an eventer. Axis would have been my first choice for my girl, fwiw... but i just missed his last sending-out-chilled-date.  
what about Wish Upon A Star, I saw him yesterday up at Twemlows, he's really lovely.
On my thread about a 2nd choice for my mare, Grafenstolz's current rider comments v favourably on him. He didn't look a difficult ride on the vid of the Expo either. As above, I doubt he'd have been accepted into studbooks etc if he had a conformation defect...


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## eventrider23 (15 April 2010)

Cristobal might be young and thus be unproven but then again....is that not how all stallions start out???  And thus is it not up to those breeders who take the chance on using them and have it pay of that benefit???  After all....someone had to have used Berlin when he was unproven....not to mention Grafenstolz himself!  So personally I would go with the horse that you feel best suits your mare and not one just use one because of X successes.....after all, you can breed two world champions and end up with a dud!  So why not take a chance on a young and incredibly promising stallion if he suits!!!!  At the end of the day, as I believe was said in an article by Twemlows recently....those breeders that used Arko several years ago when he was a youngster at a sub £500 stud fee are the ones that are laughing now!


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## fred99 (15 April 2010)

I can confirm that Grafenstolz has good feet and no twist in his leg.  Please, anybody who is interested come and see him for yourself, meet him personally and make up your own mind.  We will give you a tour of the stud, you can see the foals and the other stallions here too. Everyone on the yard is very friendly, you can watch horses being worked, drink tea and play with the puppies.  Even if you are not looking to breed at the moment we would love to meet you.  There is an excellent pub 2 minutes away - what more could you want for a fun afternoon out?  More interesting than watching the build up to the General Election!


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## jamesmead (16 April 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX7NkhIhz5Q

Here is a piece of video of Graf at the expo. The first few frames are enough to confirm that Graf DOES have a twisted foot. Other footage supports this. 

I would also say that though he responds well to his very able rider, he doesn't exactly look easy to me. It was pointed out to me by a far more knowledgeable friend than myself, that at one stage Graf appears to be stiff and uncomfortable on his off hind; its most apparent after the break in the performance. This was apparently worse at Hartpury (where my friend saw him for himself); if so, it might explain Graf's less than obliging performance on that occasion, though it doesn't say much for his human team. 

Does anyone have any links to Cristobal pictures?


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## eventrider23 (16 April 2010)

Here are some pics I have found of Cristobal:


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## millitiger (16 April 2010)

of the 3 on your list i would go for Axis.


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## KarynK (16 April 2010)

How about something from a closed stud book that is a bit different!  There is an Australian Stock Horse Stallion at stud in the UK, those old enough to remember Regal Realm will know what a super eventer he was and he is not the only international eventer the breed has produced.  This one has had a filly assessed at the BEF with a First Premium for Endurance and 2nd Premium for Eventing , she was out of a PBA.

As most know I like stock horses!  But the Aussie version are a lot more "blood" type than the USA workers.  But the same applies re the soundness, endurance, intelligence, level headedness and agility needed by a horse working stock!  I met this Lad while shopping at Your Horse Live last year and his temperament is exceptional.

Just to get you thinking outside the box!!!!

http://www.australianhorsetraining.co.uk/theaustralianstockhorse.html
http://www.australianhorsetraining.co.uk/stallionsandmares.html


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## KatB (16 April 2010)

I really like Jigilo. He looks seriously quality, and has plenty of blood, so I wouldn't be too concerned about any through backs! Also Jumbo has proved time and time again to throw quality tough stock that perform.

I LOVE Wish Upon a Star, but wonder if he would be "blood" enough for you. However, I would put L to him in a heartbeat, as she is a very high % TB (isn't Jazz?)


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## maestro (16 April 2010)

Who is she by again?  Stallion AIservices are worth a visit at the moment, with Wish upon a Star, Revolution, Mill Law and my own Weston Justice.  The last 3 being advanced blood horses and producing good trainable event stock. For your first foal a good track record does just shorten the odds.
Of the three on your list Jigilo would be your safest bet but half bred on a half bred can be a bigger rick.


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## volatis (16 April 2010)

kerilli said:



			i wouldn't put an IDxTB on an IDxTB, no real way of knowing how chunky an offspring you might get.
i think Axis won the jumping part of his performance test, plenty of jump for eventing. Darren Chiaccia bought his stallion son Ballzeuger (renamed since) to be an eventer. Axis would have been my first choice for my girl, fwiw... but i just missed his last sending-out-chilled-date.  
what about Wish Upon A Star, I saw him yesterday up at Twemlows, he's really lovely.
On my thread about a 2nd choice for my mare, Grafenstolz's current rider comments v favourably on him. He didn't look a difficult ride on the vid of the Expo either. As above, I doubt he'd have been accepted into studbooks etc if he had a conformation defect...
		
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Kerilli - Graf sure looked a difficult ride at hartbury, for a horse that has a far amount of experience under his belt he was a nappy sod that day. I didnt see him at the Expo so cant comment on that outing. 

Axis is definatly a jumper who happens to do dressage very well, rather than bred for out and out dressage, and from a sire line that produces internationel eventers and GP show jumpers. And Axis has twice now produced the top jumper at the Neumunster licensing - so Ken, sorry harriet, is wrong to label him a dressage horse.


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## AJBliss (16 April 2010)

Is Axis in Germany this year?  I can only find info for his 2009 season.


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## volatis (16 April 2010)

Yes, standing at Meyerhof this year


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## kerilli (16 April 2010)

jamesmead, there's footage of Grafenstolz here:
http://www.horseandcountry.tv/episode/uk-stallion-expo-2010-grafenstolz
foot doesn't look twisted to me.
i'll be at Belton on Sunday to watch the Stallion Parade and will pay v v close attention to his front legs and take pics/vids of them if at all possible.
i'm not in either 'camp' fwiw!
Axis won the loose jumping at his grading, he's not a 'dressage horse' at all, he's an athlete who could do any job.


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## Bearskin (16 April 2010)

Another to add to the final list of 3:  Primo Pageant?


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## Bearskin (16 April 2010)

Closely related to both Miners Lamp and Lauries Crusador.  Nice cross!


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## LEC (16 April 2010)

Have seen Jigilo eventing. He was a very cool dude when I was chatting to my friend who works for Lucy W. Tied up at the lorry next to several other horses. Would not have known he was a stallion. Jigilo is a lot lighter in the flesh than you would imagine. He has a lot of presence. 

What about Chilli Morning? Has lots of TB in his breeding. He is such a super horse. Everytime I have seen him he has behaved impeccably and has jump and movement and perhaps most important trainability. Not sure how far Chatsworth is from you but he is entered there.


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## stolensilver (17 April 2010)

Of the three stallions in the original post I'd definitely choose Axis. As Volatis has said he's an out and out jumper who happens to have been trained for dressage and happens to have made it all the way to Grand Prix. So he is one of those very rare stallions who is genuinely multitalented. 

The Germans are currently going crazy about Axis' son Hirtentanz, there are so many articles about him in the St Georg magazine. Hirtentanz is an outstanding jumper and is the first Trakehner to have been approved for Holstein breeding since Abdullah's sire way back in the 40s. The Holstein verband picked the right Trakehner stallion back then as Abdullah was the olympic gold medal winner in showjumping and judging by all the excitement and buzz surrounding Hirtentanz right now they think they've found another one just as good. 

Darren Chiaccia is an American Olympic eventer and he bought an Axis son (Ballzauber) to be his next event prospect. Things have gone off course since then as Darren had a horrible fall and sustained a major head injury so most of his horses have been sold but he was very impressed with Ballzauber while he had him and he really should know what to look for in an eventer! 

My only problem with Axis is getting in touch with his owner! I've e-mailed her and left a message on her phone but had no reply.  Can anyone help?


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## Beans1 (17 April 2010)

Have you looked at Sir Shutterfly, we had two foals by him in 2009. both lovely foals, with beautiful characters and they both jump for fun. One was graded Elite event foal and First Premium showjump foal in the BEF futurity competition.  Sir Shutterfly has plenty of blood for producing event types, moves well and obviously has a very good jump  If it helps I can PM some pics of our foals.


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## sare_bear (17 April 2010)

Having watch the video of Jigilo, he looks fantastic. Has a great gallop and jump and is actually quite light.

What happened to Contis? He looks very athletic, and typey with good movement and his BE record isn't bad for his age?

It is so difficult making a decision on potential sire, but dont think you can go far wrong with any on the list.


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## volatis (17 April 2010)

sare_bear - Contis is still standing at Goddington stud. His first crop of foals had some lovely types.

SS - I'll give you Sian's mobile, might be easiest way to get hold of her.


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## Jamana (17 April 2010)

I don't know much at all about the other sires mentioned but Jigilo has produced a lovely horse for us. The mare had a rather hot temp and her filly by Jigilo is really chilled out but intelligent with it. Very keen to learn and wants to be with you. A complete difference to her mother who could be a nightmare to catch and certainly had her own ideas about life!

The mare was a a big clunking hunter type (though she could really shift and had endless scope for jumping) who lacked in quality and had 11" bone. Her Jigilo is much more refined and looked almost like a TB foal. She has filled out some but is going to be nowhere near as enormous as her mother.

Mare is 17.1 and Jigilo filly is just a fraction under 16hh at 2yo. She is much much more quality and much more trainable than her 4yo half brother by Rebelara, an ID stallion.

Basically Jigilo certainly passed enough 'blood' on to improve our mare. 

Hope this info may be of some use for you.


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## stolensilver (17 April 2010)

volatis said:



			sare_bear - Contis is still standing at Goddington stud. His first crop of foals had some lovely types.

SS - I'll give you Sian's mobile, might be easiest way to get hold of her.
		
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Thanks but I've already tried it and left a message!


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## htobago (17 April 2010)

volatis said:



			Kerilli - Graf sure looked a difficult ride at hartbury, for a horse that has a far amount of experience under his belt he was a nappy sod that day. I didnt see him at the Expo so cant comment on that outing. 

Axis is definatly a jumper who happens to do dressage very well, rather than bred for out and out dressage, and from a sire line that produces internationel eventers and GP show jumpers. And Axis has twice now produced the top jumper at the Neumunster licensing - so Ken, sorry harriet, is wrong to label him a dressage horse.
		
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Volatis really knows her stuff - and has no vested interest in any of the stallions she recommends - so I would take her advice on Axis!


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## pinktiger (17 April 2010)

htobago said:



			Volatis really knows her stuff - and has no vested interest in any of the stallions she recommends - so I would take her advice on Axis!
		
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ditto^^^  but being nosey and a tb (well 7/8ths) owner, when you said you wanted plenty of blood why you havent got a pure tb in your list


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## madhector (17 April 2010)

pinktiger said:



			ditto^^^  but being nosey and a tb (well 7/8ths) owner, when you said you wanted plenty of blood why you havent got a pure tb in your list
		
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Have yet to come across one that I think moves and jumps enough to improve her technique, hence looking at Trakehners


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## seabiscuit (17 April 2010)

Axis sounds lovely on paper, but he has really poor conformation, and I'm sorry, whatever anyone says about him being a champion stallion or whatnot, to breed a horse for a good level of eventing youv'e simply have to choose a stallion that is very strongly made with correct limbs, it is so so hard to keep a horse sound enough to move up the grades in eventing,and IMO you have to be assured of strong conformation from the very start. Axis has a weak topline and a poor backend combined with long pasterns. Unless the camera is lying in all the conformation pics of him

Cristobel's been sold twice and he's still young, once by Darren Chicachia and once again when he was in England, could mean something's up or could just have been circumstances.

Jigolo's lovely, but he's out of a racehorse mare that was pulled up 6 times in point to point races...even the most crippled racehorse is usually at least able to finish in their point to points.

Sorry but just my opinion  I personally like Grafenstolz- now thats a sound and tough horse, evented to a high level at a young age and now winning advanced dressage. Or Fleetwater Opposition.

I just think the most important things when choosing a event stallion are soundness and toughness which has been proven by a long and successfull career, then a strong conformation with good limbs and feet, and thirdly, a good dam line that has produced the goods in each generation.


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## stolensilver (17 April 2010)

You have very strong opinions seabiscuit! I will defend Axis as there is no way he has got poor conformation. If you wish to dismiss the grading as worthless fine but you can't dismiss his competition record. A horse with poor conformation does not get to Grand Prix dressage and he's not only training at GP, he is competing and winning internationally with no soundness issues. 

I really think it is important to be 100% sure of your facts before you diss a stallion as hard as you have done. It can start rumours and damage the stallion's reputation unneccesarily.

You can see conformation photos of Axis here and judge for yourself:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/axis2
http://www.trakehners.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=41&Itemid=576


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## stolensilver (17 April 2010)

Not the best video but here is Axis piaffing and passaging as a 10yo (last year)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol7x-vyUjKM

And this is his son Hirtentanz showing what he can do over fences:
http://www.kdjumpers.com/Hirtentanz.html


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## toomanyhorses26 (17 April 2010)

I have two full tbs both with robellino as a grand sire and they both jump for england and careful with it (probably a reason that one of them didn't do very well racing - showjumped all the hurdles  ) . The older ones flatwork is pretty good and still improving and the younger one although only 3 does a mean extended trot round the field. I don't know how accessibe his line is in this country as he is now deceased and my older tb was imported from the states but I have been impressed with them both. At a recent qualifier the judge thought one of mine was a warmblood because of the way he moved.


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## seabiscuit (17 April 2010)

I'm sorry stolensilver, but neither those two pictures you posted of Axis show a horse with good conformation- you cant deny that , and no, I dont understand how he got graded well on his conformation.I am not denying that he cant move and jump, yes he is wonderfull from that point of view. Soundness wise-keeping a horse sound for grand prix dressage is a completly different ball game than keeping something sound for eventing!!!

Surely you can appreciate that to produce an eventer you HAVE to use a stallion that is strongly made with good confo- it might not matter so much if you were looking to produce something for dressage or showjumping....if axiz really was so perfect surely he wouldve been used on lots of advanced event mares by now??


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## stolensilver (17 April 2010)

We clearly have different opinions on what shape a horse should be. I love the way Axis is put together, so much so that he's on a shortlist of two to put to my PSG dressage/ clears 5'6" mare. Stallions who have the paces for dressage and a big jump are as rare as hen's teeth and IMO Axis is an absolute diamond.

I don't think he's been used on many good event mares in the UK yet because he's not been marketed. How many UK breeders have even heard of him?! If you haven't heard of him you aren't going to use him are you?


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## Jamana (17 April 2010)

toomanyhorses26 said:



			I have two full tbs both with robellino as a grand sire and they both jump for england and careful with it (probably a reason that one of them didn't do very well racing - showjumped all the hurdles  ) . The older ones flatwork is pretty good and still improving and the younger one although only 3 does a mean extended trot round the field. I don't know how accessibe his line is in this country as he is now deceased and my older tb was imported from the states but I have been impressed with them both. At a recent qualifier the judge thought one of mine was a warmblood because of the way he moved.
		
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Robellino still has a few sons listed at stud. Two in Ireland and one in France

Jammaal
Quws

France
Tot Ou tard

I don't know anything about them, but Quws is out of a mare by Rainbow Quest and he is well known as a source of unsoundness.

Robellino's most well known son was Mister Baileys, and although he is also dead he should still have plenty of daughters around. He also evented a bit and hunted after becoming infertile at stud.


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## pinktiger (17 April 2010)

this is quite nice   http://www.meadowstud.com/cash_point_54.html         !! i can see why you have shortlisted axis, does your mare have a good hind leg, thats the only weakness i can see with him, or is it that hes sooo loose in front???? he is stunning


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## eventrider23 (17 April 2010)

Isn't Cristobal still owned in partnership with Darren Chicachia??  As far as I was aware he was owned by a syndicate....of which Darren was a member....


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## TheMule (17 April 2010)

Seabiscuit is right- it's not about the 'shape' of the horse, in this case it's about his limb conformation which is not great. He actually looks hideously upright in his front pasterns in the allbreed pic and he stands right over himself. He piaffes how he stands- on the forehand.


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## stolensilver (17 April 2010)

I disagree. He's very young to be doing GP and he is triangulating in the piaffe: getting his hind legs too far under his weight. Its a common fault and it is a strength issue. As he gets stronger he will be able to do piaffe with his hind legs further behind him and sit more. Having said that he's still got a better piaffe than many other horses.  Also bear in mind the video was at a stallion show with a crazy atmosphere and he definitely isn't showing his best paces in it.


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## volatis (17 April 2010)

Hang on, one of you is saying he has long pasterns, and the other saying they are short and upright. Thye clearly cant be both so which one of you is wrong?
And as for saying he has a weak topline, what???? You do realise in the photo of him stood up against the wall he was 2 1/2. And there is no way he has a weak topline.

here is a photo of a daughter of his, aged 2 1/2, who has just won the free jumping class at the breed show, with German judges who specialise in this type of class, who raved about her scope and athletic ability. She was also judged Elite at the futurity as an eventer as a 3yo, second highest score for eventers across the country


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## stolensilver (17 April 2010)

One of the things I particularly like about Axis are his quarters and the way he is able to reach under his body with his hind legs. He also has a superb shoulder angle and a long humerus giving him lots of reach and expression with his front legs. He's a lovely stallion and IMO his conformation is excellent. As I said before horses with poor conformation, especially behind, do not stay sound enough to get to GP dressage. The number of horses that break down with hind suspensory injuries in upper level dressage is frightening. That's why the insurance premiums on upper level dressage are similar to eventing. Its hard work and it takes a horse with correct angles and strong soft tissues which is even more important but not as easy to assess as the angles between the bones which is what we usually think about when talking conformation.


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## stolensilver (17 April 2010)

volatis said:



			Hang on, one of you is saying he has long pasterns, and the other saying they are short and upright. Thye clearly cant be both so which one of you is wrong?
And as for saying he has a weak topline, what???? You do realise in the photo of him stood up against the wall he was 2 1/2. And there is no way he has a weak topline.
		
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LOL! Well said Volatis. I think people underestimate how tough Grand Prix dressage is and how well put together a horse has to be to get there. Added to the equation is Axis' proven record of passing on outstanding jump, that his sire was an international showjumper and he has a very strong damline. Just because people haven't heard of him does not mean he isn't an outstanding stallion. How many stallions are there that have a CV as strong as Axis?


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## seabiscuit (17 April 2010)

His pasterns are not only upright, they are also long and upright- a diasatarous combination!! Both pictures show a poor back end and a straight hind leg. Both pics also show that he is very upright in the shoulder. We will have to agree to disagree on this. 
Yes his daughter is beautifull and is virtually correct in herself- so much better than her father!! She must be out of a very strongly made mare.


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## seabiscuit (17 April 2010)

stolensilver said:



			I don't think he's been used on many good event mares in the UK yet because he's not been marketed. How many UK breeders have even heard of him?! If you haven't heard of him you aren't going to use him are you?
		
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Event breeders certainly do not need horses advertised right in front of them until they are blue in the face . They are certainly more than aware of any good potential event stallions out there!!


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## stolensilver (17 April 2010)

I'm now wondering how much you actually know about conformation seabiscuit!


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## stolensilver (17 April 2010)

seabiscuit said:



			Event breeders certainly do not need horses advertised right in front of them until they are blue in the face . They are certainly more than aware of any good potential event stallions out there!!
		
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Really? How many event breeders even considered warmbloods until very recently? And how many people have heard of Axis before this thread? He's not advertised in the UK.


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## volatis (17 April 2010)

I think we will have to agree to disagree as I cant see the weaknesses you describe seabiscuit and I know stolensilver is an excellent judge of a horse and a very serious amateur dressage rider so afraid I have to agree with her. 

And I think you comment about event breeders being aware of any potnetial event sires, sorry thats rubbish - there are so many stallions out there, no one can be aware of all of them


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## stolensilver (17 April 2010)

BTW Volatis Axis' daughter is simply stunning.


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## seabiscuit (17 April 2010)

I am not even going to bother to answer that question stolensilver, because british event breeders know exactly what they are doing when it comes to breeding the very best event horses in the world


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## stolensilver (17 April 2010)

seabiscuit said:



			I am not even going to bother to answer that question stolensilver, because british event breeders know exactly what they are doing when it comes to breeding the very best event horses in the world

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I won't argue with the record of event breeding in the UK and Ireland but I do question your eye for a horse. I don't want to be confrontational but what you are saying you can see simply is not there.


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## pinktiger (17 April 2010)

by his record i would think he must be pretty tough as the level he is at demands a seriously well put together athlete!  Dont think all stallions suit every mare and its good to have a diversity of stallion, and of mind esp in eventing terms, think all event breeders are subjective and good job too!!


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## seabiscuit (17 April 2010)

stolensilver said:



			I won't argue with the record of event breeding in the UK and Ireland but I do question your eye for a horse. I don't want to be confrontational but what you are saying you can see simply is not there.
		
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I would question your eye for a horse if you cant see his obvious faults!


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## stolensilver (17 April 2010)

This is my last post as I don't want this thread to deteriorate into a slanging match. I just wanted to say that your opinion of Axis is only held by you. The inspectors loved him, the German breeders love him and his competition record shouts loudly that he has good and sound conformation. 

You don't like him? That's fine. I just hope other people reading this thread are able to evaluate Axis for themselves and are not swayed by your posts. A horse with the conformations defects that you list (that Axis does NOT have) would not have got to Grand Prix dressage without breaking down. What is really sad is that Axis is owned by a British breeder. How sad that a British stallion is being shredded on a British board.


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## pinktiger (17 April 2010)

sorry madH but  what about this onehttp://www.ranbyhall.com/stravinsky.html     plenty of blood and a dressage horse too!!!  its a minefield with mares and stallions isnt it so hard to know what to do, no horse is perfect and people see very different things in stallions not an easy task for you, very best of luck!!  let us know who you choose for your lovely mare


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## stolensilver (17 April 2010)

I'd definitely recommend looking up Stravinsky's jumping and dressage indexes with the KWPN before using him. They are illuminating. He's passed on now anyway, not sure if frozen is available?

And that really is my last post on this thread.


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## magic104 (18 April 2010)

stolensilver said:



			I just hope other people reading this thread are able to evaluate Axis for themselves and are not swayed by your posts. .
		
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No worries on that score!!  As already stated the horse has stayed sound at GP level that speaks for itself.  The strains put on the limbs/muscles are just as vigerous & if he did have a weakness in his pasterns it would have shown by now along with any weakness in the top line.  Made interesting reading these posts.


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## seabiscuit (18 April 2010)

stolensilver said:



			This is my last post as I don't want this thread to deteriorate into a slanging match. I just wanted to say that your opinion of Axis is only held by you. The inspectors loved him, the German breeders love him and his competition record shouts loudly that he has good and sound conformation. 

You don't like him? That's fine. I just hope other people reading this thread are able to evaluate Axis for themselves and are not swayed by your posts. A horse with the conformations defects that you list (that Axis does NOT have) would not have got to Grand Prix dressage without breaking down. What is really sad is that Axis is owned by a British breeder. How sad that a British stallion is being shredded on a British board.
		
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People should be able to make their own educated decisions when it comes to assessing stallions; and I am certainly not the 'only' one who can see the most obvious things about axis- as said before, otherwise, he would have been a more popular stallion in this country especially among event breeders
And I certainly have nothing against British stallions having bought plenty of horses bred by british studs, there is nothing wrong with a healthy , critical discussion about them . If we weren't critical, people would be breeding a whole heap of rubbish horses.

Breeding for eventing IS a different ball game than breeding for dressage or showjumping,to use a stallion with correct limbs is critical.


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## eventrider23 (18 April 2010)

If anyone wants to make their own decisions on this stalion (rather than getting into a heated debate) have a look at him on here: http://www.trakehners.co.uk/
They also have listed on there many many foals by him, including one by a mare that I now have!


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## Rollin (18 April 2010)

Clodagh said:



			Just to not help at all when I was choosing a stallion for my mare my vet said as shes a cross breed you never know what genes are going to pop up, so go for a closed stud book, which for me meant tb. 
Sorry....runs and hides!!
		
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Well CB's and Shagya Arabs both have closed stud books.  According to the foundation stud in Babolna, Milton, RatinaZ, Corso and Rembrandt all have Shayga blood lines.

As you all know I am totally committed to the CB power, strength, stamina, bone and fantastic temperament.


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## ihatework (18 April 2010)

seabiscuit said:



			I am not even going to bother to answer that question stolensilver, because british event breeders know exactly what they are doing when it comes to breeding the very best event horses in the world

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No they don't!!!
The amount of **** being put to **** is unbelieveable.

Your sentance would read better with the insertion of 'SOME' before british event breeders, because some are certainly well up on breeding. Others are light years behind.


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## volatis (18 April 2010)

seabiscuit said:



			and I am certainly not the 'only' one who can see the most obvious things about axis- as said before, otherwise, he would have been a more popular stallion in this country especially among event breeders
.
		
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That is very bizare logic. The stallion stands in Germany, is not advertised over here unless you know to look on the owners website, is not standing at a stud that advertises in the UK.

There are some fantastic eventing stallions that get over looked all the time. Take Laurel - ever heard of him - no I doubt it. Stands at one of the Southern German state studs, even the Germans didnt really know he was there, until he turned up at a stallion show one year and everyone suddenly realised here was an entire son of Stan the Man, who is one of the leading sires of eventers if BE lists are anything to go by. Add to that his scope and great canter and here is a really viable eventing stallion that almost know one has heard of. Does that make him a bad stallion, no, it makes him a badly marketed one.

There are conversely some very popular eventing sires in the UK who have both conformation and temperment defects. Just because they are popular does not mean they are good, it just means they are popular. Some breeders might get away with it and take just the good aspects of the stallion, lose the negative ones and breed themselves a winner. Some breeders will find their foal inherits the worst aspects and they have a piggy dud with **** legs.


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## harrietltb (19 April 2010)

So why not take a chance on a young and incredibly promising stallion if he suits - because thats probably not how British breeding is going to progress.  Its not the responsibility of mare owners in this country to use their mare uteruses as test beds for unproven stallions.

I would go with the horse that you feel best suits your mare and not one just use one because of X successes  it is actually possible to combine both you know.  Why would you use a stallion that has had no successes in sport or breeding?  

Here is a piece of video of Graf at the expo. The first few frames are enough to confirm that Graf DOES have a twisted foot  eeerrrrrrrrrr Jamesmeade, that looks to me like sand stuck on the hoof oil on the inside of his hoof.  If he had a foot like that he wouldnt able to walk let alone win at PSG.


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## harrietltb (19 April 2010)

James Mead and Event Rider 23:  One day you will have to realise that just because people have a different opinion to you does not make them Ken Rehill and it does not make them wrong. 

I find it amazing that you cannot believe anyone else on this forum should have an opinion that does not exactly align with your own, and trying to denigrate their opinions by calling them/us "Ken Rehill trolls" is frankly childish, not to mention personal and aggressive.  ou are not the onl ones allowed to have a say.

You recommend stallions and people all the time - why is it ok for you to do this, but anyone who believes in what Ken does or likes the stallions he represents should be vilified and called childish names? I think you need to step out of the playground.


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## Simsar (19 April 2010)

Harriet not wanting to get into an argument, but the other two posters are not saying that others opinion are wrong or even asking for more information on the stallions that they/you are recommending, i think you will find if you re-read some of your posts that they come across as questioning others opinions and recommendations not the other way round. The OP is the final one to make the decision as it is her mare, we can all however give OUR OWN opinion without questioning others.


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## mle22 (19 April 2010)

Not wanting to hijack post, but I would love to see a photo of your 2 yr old by Jigilo, Jamala. Our mare is in foal to him, due in June - can't wait - and we chose him for a number of reasons but largely because we thought he would suit our mare.


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## eventrider23 (19 April 2010)

harrietltb said:



			James Mead and Event Rider 23:  One day you will have to realise that just because people have a different opinion to you does not make them Ken Rehill and it does not make them wrong. 

I find it amazing that you cannot believe anyone else on this forum should have an opinion that does not exactly align with your own, and trying to denigrate their opinions by calling them/us "Ken Rehill trolls" is frankly childish, not to mention personal and aggressive.  ou are not the onl ones allowed to have a say.

You recommend stallions and people all the time - why is it ok for you to do this, but anyone who believes in what Ken does or likes the stallions he represents should be vilified and called childish names? I think you need to step out of the playground.
		
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Harrietltb - no on e is saying you are not entitle to an opinion.  My arguement is that, prior today I have never conversed nor even really knew of your existence on this forum....yet today I am met with a barrage of questions from you demanding to know if I work ad Brendons and stating I only promote their stallions yadda yadda yadda.   THOSE comments IMO are childish and aggressive.....your writing style is very similar to those on here who could have been termed 'trolls' and as such it is an easy mistake to make to believe you are one...if you arenot then I do apologise...however as I, and the ownersof Brendons have stated....I am not now and never have been, an employee.  As such I am simply a satisified customer.

The same could be said for yourself that you are a satisfied customer of Ken's, hence your own pluggin of his stallion's...something you are more than entitled to do!  I have in no way called you any childish names, merely defended myself when accused.  You insist on stats and firgures....I have given you those that I have to my knowledge.  Not being the stallion owner, those are what I have to memory.  Simsar has done the same(as did I) and gave you stats on Primo Pageant.  Instead now you are playing the victim.

This forum used to be a lovely place....people could come on and ask for advice and have it freely given...with them then just needing to goaway and do further research or themselves as the the stallions/inormation suggested...now they have to justify themselves to the likes of you, who yourself has yet to give any answers as to your own history and background as I believe you have been asked in a separate post what your own experiences are in breeding and indeed what stallions you have used and what qualiies you as being an expert as you seem to be demanding so much information yourself off of others!!


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## WORM007 (19 April 2010)

Christobal might not yet be proven but he is stunning and has a lot of potential to produce a lovely foal with your mare. I would go with him out of the choice of three.


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## Alexart (19 April 2010)

Out of the 3 you've chosen I think Cristobal compliments your mare the best conformation wise, he's not a bad looking horse at all, even though he's got no offspring on the ground yet I'd gamble on him out of those 3 boys.


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