# Another reason to boycott Baileys...



## JFTDWS (6 November 2019)

Earlier today, Lynn Russell posted a deeply unpleasant video of this horse tied down into an unnatural and forced head carriage, before deleting it when it attracted some negative attention.

This isn't the first time Bailey's Horse Feeds' sponsorship of LR has been called into question - there was a lot of social media discontent when her grey cob, Jovian, won at HOYS in 2017.  The issue of obese horses in the show ring is an ongoing issue, which exists at all levels in the showing world, perpetuated by the actions of feed companies offering sponsorship to the worst offenders.


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## milliepops (6 November 2019)

what was the explanation for winching it's head down?


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## JFTDWS (6 November 2019)

milliepops said:



			what was the explanation for winching it's head down?
		
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Is there any satisfactory explanation?  I've seen no explanation, tbf.  She may yet release some kind of statement about it.


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## FlyingCircus (6 November 2019)

Funnily enough, I messaged both brands mentioned in her post -  Baileys saw my message and ignored me Eqclusive responded very quickly that they have shared with management.


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## milliepops (6 November 2019)

JFTD-WS said:



			Is there any satisfactory explanation?  I've seen no explanation, tbf.  She may yet release some kind of statement about it.
		
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nope I just wondered if she justified it to herself somehow.


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## Alibear (6 November 2019)

From the photo its in the school in a roller and side reins connected to a snaffle.  Something people do all the time with a lunge rein attached.  So it doesn't upset me, but I agree its not the best press image.  She says its young but no idea what age it is.


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## Dyllymoo (6 November 2019)

The video was awful, a friend shared it and I couldn't believe it   Very sad.


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## JFTDWS (6 November 2019)

Alibear said:



			From the photo its in the school in a roller and side reins connected to a snaffle.  Something people do all the time with a lunge rein attached.  So it doesn't upset me, but I agree its not the best press image.  She says its young but no idea what age it is.
		
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You think it's acceptable to tie a horse's head down into that position, whether on the lunge or loose?  It's not that it's not on the lunge which is an issue - it's the tying up.  The video, which I will try to post, shows that it is barely able to walk in this position.


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## JFTDWS (6 November 2019)

milliepops said:



			nope I just wondered if she justified it to herself somehow.
		
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I presume she must, in order to sleep at night.  I have no idea how, but if I see a statement from her, I will share it.


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## milliepops (6 November 2019)

I think most people would lunge with looser side reins though. I accept that often when standing still the length of rein that is BHS-correct for trot work can look a bit on the short side, but I can't see what productive work could be done by screwing the horse down that short.

(eta before accusations of BHS bashing, I was taught to lunge under this system and it was drummed in that you should release the side reins asap on stopping).


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## dorsetladette (6 November 2019)

Apologies my eye sight is awful. 

Is he wearing a headcollar, a bridle and then 'just' side reins or is it like a bungee thing going over his head?


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

I think it might be a bungee rein , still donâ€™t like it though 
Milliepops is spot on about the BHS lunging you where taught never to leave the horses stationary in side reins and you took them both off the bit to adjust their length .

It was a ridiculous picture to choose to put on line itâ€™s just yuk .


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## JFTDWS (6 November 2019)

Laafet said:



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And it's why I have no time for showing as a discipline at all - not that people don't do horrifying things in all disciplines, but...


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## Alibear (6 November 2019)

I see a roller, side reins (which may be elasticated) and snaffle bridle, I can't see how that is tying down into a fixed position? I can see its restrictive and not something I'd chose to do.   If combined with leaving the horse like it alone or accompanied in it for more than 15 mins then yes I agree with the uproar but that's not been said or posted.


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## JFTDWS (6 November 2019)

Alibear said:



			I see a roller, side reins (which may be elasticated) and snaffle bridle, I can't see how that is tying down into a fixed position? I can see its restrictive and not something I'd chose to do.   If combined with leaving the horse like it alone or accompanied in it for more than 15 mins then yes I agree with the uproar but that's not been said or posted.
		
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Then all I can say is we have very different ideas about acceptable head positions, or training techniques.  Which is fine, you're entitled to your opinion, even if I don't agree (and I emphatically do not).


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## honetpot (6 November 2019)

This is common in showing, I went to a showing lecture, by someone very well known and they lunged in tied in fixed head carriage. Usually itâ€™s done with baler twine, because you can not buy side reins that short.
 I have also seen lead rein ponies tied to the backs of lorries with their heads tied in with bailer twine.
 When ever I see a small pony with the perfect â€˜on the bitâ€™ head carriage and a small jockey it makes me wince.
 As a child on a dealers yard it was common to tie young horses in, that was nearly fifty years ago. Itâ€™s ingrained in people, they say one thing and do another.


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## JFTDWS (6 November 2019)

honetpot said:



			This is common in showing, I went to a showing lecture, by someone very well known and they lunged in tied in fixed head carriage. Usually itâ€™s done with baler twine, because you can not buy side reins that short.
I have also seen lead rein ponies tied to the backs of lorries with their heads tied in with bailer twine.
When ever I see a small pony with the perfect â€˜on the bitâ€™ head carriage and a small jockey it makes me wince.
As a child on a dealers yard it was common to tie young horses in, that was nearly fifty years ago. Itâ€™s ingrained in people, they say one thing and do another.
		
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I can't bring myself to like this comment, but yes.  Indeed


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## ThreeWBs (6 November 2019)




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## JFTDWS (6 November 2019)

Thanks, threewbs, your tech skills are appreciated.


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## EquestrianEllie01 (6 November 2019)

ThreeWBs said:









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Oh that's just absolutely awful, poor sod


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## MotherOfChickens (6 November 2019)

Alibear said:



			I see a roller, side reins (which may be elasticated) and snaffle bridle, I can't see how that is tying down into a fixed position? I can see its restrictive and not something I'd chose to do.   If combined with leaving the horse like it alone or accompanied in it for more than 15 mins then yes I agree with the uproar but that's not been said or posted.
		
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maybe, just maybe the horse keeps its head there to avoid the pain in its mouth from having a jointed bit pulled on by the reins, acting on his tongue and/or bars-elasticated rein or not.


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## NLPM (6 November 2019)

Video is very uncomfortable. Poor horse. She refers to him as a baby - any idea how old he is? [Makes no difference to how 'OK' this isn't, before anyone thinks I'm about to justify it].

I stopped buying Lynn Russell products when I read an article in one of the national magazines about preparing your horse for shows in which she commented that horses with whiskers look scruffy, and everything needs to come off. Not 'trimmed' - actually shaved right off. It's one thing to have an opinion on that; it's another to use a national platform to push something which is illegal in other countries on the grounds of horse welfare. (I was a little surprised that comment was published, but I guess that's not really relevant here!).


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## planete (6 November 2019)

i groomed for a show jumper for a short while ages ago and remember going into a young horse's stable to skip out and finding the horse tied up like that.  When I questioned the other grooms I was told the horse had been throwing his head up during the schooling session earlier that morning and this would teach him not to do it!  The horse was supposed to stay tied down in that over bent position for several hours.


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## NLPM (6 November 2019)

Alibear said:



			I see a roller, side reins (which may be elasticated) and snaffle bridle, I can't see how that is tying down into a fixed position? I can see its restrictive and not something I'd chose to do.   If combined with leaving the horse like it alone or accompanied in it for more than 15 mins then yes I agree with the uproar but that's not been said or posted.
		
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The video isn't the clearest so I could be wrong, but I don't see any real slack in those reins. Have tried pausing it a couple of points, but there doesn't look to be much 'give' at all.

I usually try hard to reserve judgement with horses that look to be 'btv' in a snapshot moment. One of mine likes to fidget when she's standing still - I've got plenty of photographs where her chin is tucked in because that's just where she was at that moment in time. If she's bridled at the time, though, then the reins are always, always slack so that's always what I look at in horses with a curled up head carriage. I don't see much slack in the video, although as I said it's not crystal clear.


*Planete* that's shocking.


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## scats (6 November 2019)

Saddened to see this.  Arguably that picture is a snapshot in time, which can often paint a much worse picture, but having seen the video, it was really not nice viewing.  Amazed that anyone would put this out and not expect a backlash.

If thatâ€™s what it takes to become successful and get sponsorship off a big feed brand, then I never will be, nor would I want to be...


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## Errin Paddywack (6 November 2019)

Really don't like this

A friend of mine had a holiday in Germany many years ago with a friend who was living there and had taken a horse over there.  She went riding while she was there and all the horses were strapped down like this while they were being ridden.  She was horrified.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (6 November 2019)

It's not walking but shuffling. Just stops and cannot halt square.
It doesn't need 'more condition' from feeds.

Basic training means they learn to walk out and square halt - in hand and on long reins - before progressing...... tieing them in does not get them to balance themselves,  but I'm already typing to those who know this.....
Argh!


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## Kaylum (6 November 2019)

monkey see monkey do and if your a show winning producer and others want to be a show winning producer what are they now going to do.  

The sponsors now have a responsibility for the welfare of equines they sponsor.


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## JFTDWS (6 November 2019)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			but I'm already typing to those who know this.....
Argh!
		
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Apparently not exclusively


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

Just watched the video itâ€™s terrible .


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## tiahatti (6 November 2019)

If this is top professional horsemanship, I am happy to remain a numpty amateur.


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## Kaylum (6 November 2019)

where is the video?  ignore I have found it terrible video.


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## Kaylum (6 November 2019)

that is horrendous poor horse.


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

Those photos are gross .
And should get the keeper of the horses a warning from the RSPCA that they are failing to provide correct nutrition not a sash from a show .

It was the most beautiful horse under all that fat .


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

Baileys horse feeds buy it and you are supporting that


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## dorsetladette (6 November 2019)

That video is very distressing - I'm from a showing background but can not relate to that at all! Why would you want a horse in that position is beyond me. He's not moving forward because 1) he can't see 2) its probably very painful to do so. 

(Our showing ponies were never strapped in, they were schooled properly to work from behind and self carriage - this meant we often weren't out with 4 years old in the novice classes as it took longer to produce ours 'properly')


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## Lindylouanne (6 November 2019)

That is disgusting behaviour, poor horse looked like it was 90 shuffling along. As for the obese cob, cruelty doesn't even cover it. What's wrong with showing a finely tuned well muscled animal. I haven't bought Baileys for a while and I certainly won't be getting any in the future.


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## Kaylum (6 November 2019)

We get horses in like that to our rescue, they go swimming and it helps them loose weight.  Why why why put a horse at risk like that.   Are these judges placing just because its who it is?


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## Palindrome (6 November 2019)

*Side reins should be adjusted a hand's width longer than the natural position of the horse's head.*
The natural position of the horse's head will vary with training but will never be behind the vertical.


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## sherry90 (6 November 2019)

Many years ago I worked at a riding school and remember seeing one of the horses tied up like this with baling twine. Although I was at an impressionable age I am glad I had common sense to realise it was totally unjustified and cruel. 

Whilst I donâ€™t disagree with those who use side reins/lunging (I tend not to use them myself) aids correctly, I do when itâ€™s like the example provided here ðŸ˜”


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## ihatework (6 November 2019)

There are bad practices in all elite competitive horse disciplines, but there are 2 things in showing that I cannot stand - the obesity and the feeding (and in some cases steroid) to achieve that look [and no, professionally produced show horses are NOT just well muscled] and the training/schooling methods - tied up in gadgets far far too much. Iâ€™ve seen it all first hand.


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## Amymay (6 November 2019)

Yep, not a great advert for a â€˜professionalâ€™


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## ester (6 November 2019)

I'm surprised that anyone can consider them just 'normal' side reins. I have never seen anyone use side reins that tight! I guess it's a bit like the bit can depend on the rider, like any gadget. 

TP it is probably worth reminding people that Jovian was an irish draft, they really aren't supposed to look like that .


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

Kaylum said:



			We get horses in like that to our rescue, they go swimming and it helps them loose weight.  Why why why put a horse at risk like that.   Are these judges placing just because its who it is?
		
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I would like hope judges are more aware now that this gives showing a bad name .
Show horses should be carrying a lot of muscle more like a dressage horse than an eventer .
Some conformation flaws can be covered up by fat , ( although the horse in the pictures was a beauty ) so thatâ€™s one reason some horses get fattened up .
In Ireland they call it grubbing up thatâ€™s basically taking a perfectly normal three or four year old and stuffing itâ€™s face with masses of food .
They grow too fast and damage their limbs itâ€™s very sad .
I think it got be a fat arms race at one time I think  ( hope ) there is more awareness now .
I was recently looking ( some of you can guess why ) at the guidelines for ID ridden classes and they clearly state that fat horses will be marked down .
Perhaps I will find out in the summer if they mean it .


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

ester said:



			I'm surprised that anyone can consider them just 'normal' side reins. I have never seen anyone use side reins that tight! I guess it's a bit like the bit can depend on the rider, like any gadget. 

TP it is probably worth reminding people that Jovian was an irish draft, they really aren't supposed to look like that .
		
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No they are not , itâ€™s very sad to ID,s stuffed like geese to turn them into maxi cobs .
Fatty had been doing some maxi cob classes before he came here heâ€™s not a cob heâ€™s a hunter with an unfortunate head he lost I think was 260 kilos .
The weight of one of my friends driving ponies .
Just think of that carting round a whole ponies worth of extra weight .


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## PapaverFollis (6 November 2019)

Ugh that's horrible. The poor horse.  And the poor draught horse that was fattened up to look like a cob, yet somehow wins... nope, just nope.  

I have sometimes bought Bailey's products but will consciously avoid now unless they publicly divorce themselves from this horrible woman.


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## Tiddlypom (6 November 2019)

The showing world has been bleating for years that it takes the problem of equine obesity very seriously. Then it allows grossly obese horses to win prestigious competitions.
Weasel words. Money talks.


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## ester (6 November 2019)

Shame we arenâ€™t in full show season as Id be tempted to point out the video on a stand, or even better play it ledbydonkeys style next to it. 

I think itâ€™s a shame that maxi cob classes have done that rather than generating a class for actually big cobs.


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## TGM (6 November 2019)

ester said:



			Shame we arenâ€™t in full show season as Id be tempted to point out the video on a stand, or even better play it ledbydonkeys style next to it.

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Baileys are actually at Your Horse Live this weekend so if any HHO members are there they might like to put their point of view across to those on the Bailey's stand ...


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

If you look at old pictures ( as in black and white ) of show horses the horses are not so fat they just look extremely well .
It started as a mark of wealth it showed you keep a horse just for â€˜ showâ€™ but it got seriously out of hand .


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## sarahann1 (6 November 2019)

I'd asked Baileys a couple of years ago what they would condition score the cob at, was met with silence. 

I'm not against side reins used correctly, these shown in the video look much too short. I'm a showing bod these days, I rarely lunge or use side reins and have a mare who carries herself beautifully when ridden correctly.


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

sarahann1 said:



			I'd asked Baileys a couple of years ago what they would condition score the cob at, was met with silence. 

I'm not against side reins used correctly, these shown in the video look much too short. I'm a showing bod these days, I rarely lunge or use side reins and have a mare who carries herself beautifully when ridden correctly.
		
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Do you mean the ID masquerading as a cob in the picture above .
Well done you .


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## eggs (6 November 2019)

Many, many years ago when I had my first pony at a DIY yard there was some-one there who had a number of show ponies, a couple of which made it to HOYS.  They would stand for hours in their stables with their heads strapped down with baling twine.  Very sad that it is still happening.

Apart from this and the obesity I don't like that a lot of show horses are heavily rugged all year round 'to keep their coat good'.


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## BlackRider (6 November 2019)

Its awful! poor horse!

I hope she gets dropped by Baileys....

And as for the maxi cob - words fail me!


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## holeymoley (6 November 2019)

Iâ€™m not for turning against someone with a big name, purely from one photo however I really donâ€™t see what theyâ€™re expecting this â€˜training aidâ€™ in this position to do except to force the horses head in to a horrible position. Not impressed.

As for the obese cob that is shocking, looks ridiculous.


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## daffy44 (6 November 2019)

Appalling.  Of course side reins are a very common training aid, but not when fixed like that!  If she feels that video is good for business and therefore she posts it online I shudder to think what she considers unacceptable.  As for the poor obese horse, it needs the rspca just as much as any emaciated animal pulled from the side of the road.

I dont use Baileys feed, but I will be emailing them to ask if this cruelty is what they endorse.


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## dogatemysalad (6 November 2019)

Changing your horse feed manufacturer is easy, but changes nothing. 

How many people  who really think this is unacceptable would boycott and petition  the BSHA and any event promoted by LR and the 8 other companies that sponsor her ?


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## honetpot (6 November 2019)

planete said:



			i groomed for a show jumper for a short while ages ago and remember going into a young horse's stable to skip out and finding the horse tied up like that.  When I questioned the other grooms I was told the horse had been throwing his head up during the schooling session earlier that morning and this would teach him not to do it!  The horse was supposed to stay tied down in that over bent position for several hours.  

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 I used to love watching show jumping as teenager and watched the big riders of the day bring out their B&C horses at local shows most weekends in the summer.
 My friend who knows a lot of show jumpers, enough to go on their yards,then told me some of the â€˜tricksâ€™ they use, tying a head in is the least of it. I never watch now. 
 The trouble with most sports if you employ people to police what goes on who are interested in the sport a lot become star struck and soon glamoured by the results.
 Stewards powers should be extended to the horse box lines, with a camera. And do not get me on about doping.


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## cundlegreen (6 November 2019)

Alibear said:



			From the photo its in the school in a roller and side reins connected to a snaffle.  Something people do all the time with a lunge rein attached.  So it doesn't upset me, but I agree its not the best press image.  She says its young but no idea what age it is.
		
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You may use side reins lunging, but never that short!


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## FlyingCircus (6 November 2019)

The fact so many people dont realise this is wrong both on here and on FB has amazed and upset me.


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## stormox (6 November 2019)

I havent seen the video, but agree side reins are too short, and cob far too fat.
But these people win! And thats what sponsors want - winners.
I think its the judges who should be blamed- they are putting the obese overbent ones to the top of the line, and any sponsored rider is going to try and keep their sponsors happy by trying to be the one at the top.


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## ester (6 November 2019)

the video is on this post for those who haven't seen it


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## eahotson (6 November 2019)

JFTD-WS said:



			Earlier today, Lynn Russell posted a deeply unpleasant video of this horse tied down into an unnatural and forced head carriage, before deleting it when it attracted some negative attention.

This isn't the first time Bailey's Horse Feeds' sponsorship of LR has been called into question - there was a lot of social media discontent when her grey cob, Jovian, won at HOYS in 2017.  The issue of obese horses in the show ring is an ongoing issue, which exists at all levels in the showing world, perpetuated by the actions of feed companies offering sponsorship to the worst offenders. 

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good God.


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## windand rain (6 November 2019)

That is appalling I show all mine from babies and have never used side reins at all if they are on the bit it is because they have been ridden properly. Young and old that ride my ponies are taught to ride forward into all transitions up and down. Obesity is another thing and although I dont judge anymore the fat ones always went down the line when I did. I dont use Baileys either


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## Merrymoles (6 November 2019)

I have no words...


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## Mule (6 November 2019)

Mine has that length of rein thing too. Sidereins can look quite tight in halt (not nearly as tight as in that photo) and then once he moves off they magically loosen. They even look looser in walk not just trot. Why is that?




milliepops said:



			I think most people would lunge with looser side reins though. I accept that often when standing still the length of rein that is BHS-correct for trot work can look a bit on the short side, but I can't see what productive work could be done by screwing the horse down that short.

(eta before accusations of BHS bashing, I was taught to lunge under this system and it was drummed in that you should release the side reins asap on stopping).
		
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## Blazingsaddles (6 November 2019)

How the hell can a horse move correctly with its head tied down? Itâ€™s actually really disappointing for a so called professional (who must clearly believe the hype) to train her horses in such an outdated and and patently obvious abusive way. I understand that all professionals (&amateurs!) want results but youâ€™ve sold your soul to the devil when using such outdated, cruel quick fixes instead of time & training the horse correctly.


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

It has to be said Jovian was the most beautiful ID .
He was an exceptional individual.


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## Pearlsasinger (6 November 2019)

planete said:



			i groomed for a show jumper for a short while ages ago and remember going into a young horse's stable to skip out and finding the horse tied up like that.  When I questioned the other grooms I was told the horse had been throwing his head up during the schooling session earlier that morning and this would teach him not to do it!  The horse was supposed to stay tied down in that over bent position for several hours.  

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This reminds me of the thread about Sammarie and the video of her cob, both ends of the spectrum and equally disgusting!


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## cornbrodolly (6 November 2019)

I dont even understand why Lynn or anyone else could think this was acceptable - just horrible. Whilst I know side and draw reins are widely used in show circles , I have never seen any horse so held in - this is just rollkur. This young cob is not having the sort of training I would want for any horse.
I do think here are too many judges who do not penalise horses with a frame that has been manufactured by this sort of abuse. Good judges should know the difference , although most of the entries in the pony classes all look the same with rocking horse arched necks , a sure sign of being tied in.
It does seem showing is getting worse , very disappointing. I know of one showing family who were top flight a generation ago - they arent now , and I m sure its because they ride and train in a more sympathetic way, and the horses just havent the big arched neck and BTV  most judges wish/expect to see.


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## gunnergundog (6 November 2019)

I am not what is termed a 'fluffy' by any means, but GOOD horsemanship makes such things UNNECESSARY......both tie-ing down and feeding up.


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## Mrs. Jingle (6 November 2019)

ThreeWBs said:









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 FFS! that is all  


Goldenstar said:



			It has to be said Jovian was the most beautiful ID .
He was an exceptional individual.
		
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 He wasn't a very beautiful ID in these pics though was he?


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## JFTDWS (6 November 2019)

dogatemysalad said:



			Changing your horse feed manufacturer is easy, but changes nothing.

How many people  who really think this is unacceptable would boycott and petition  the BSHA and any event promoted by LR and the 8 other companies that sponsor her ?
		
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I'm not sure of your point?  Of the companies which sponsor LR, I haven't even heard of 4 of them.  I've never used any services from the rest.  I will continue not to do so.  I have nothing at all to do with any affiliated showing body on principle - I do not approve of their "standards".  I certainly wouldn't support any event associated with LR, and I have never knowingly supported any event promoted by any of her sponsors.


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

MrsJingle said:



			FFS! that is all  
 He wasn't a very beautiful ID in these pics though was he?
		
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Itâ€™s not his fault he was fat .
Nothing wrong with him the photos that could not solved with the amount of photoshopping that it would need to get me on the cover of vogue .


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## Foxychops (6 November 2019)

Friend of a friend mentionedthey tied their show pony up really tight with its head in the air all night so obviously no food or water with the light on. If you have to do this sort of thing then you need to give up horses or get a pony you can control.


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## Mrs. Jingle (6 November 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			Itâ€™s not his fault he was fat .
Nothing wrong with him the photos that could not solved with the amount of photoshopping that it would need to get me on the cover of vogue .
		
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I think you miss my point Goldenstar - quite simply he looks nothing like and ID let alone an exceptional sample of the magnificent breed! Not for one moment am I suggesting he is not a magnificent sample - he might well be - but he sure doesn't look like one with half a ton of excess fat lathered on him does he? Of course it isnt his fault he looks like that, what a ridiculous thing to say?  I cant think anyone commenting on this thread thinks it is the horse's fault - the whole point of the discussion is that is what 'we' as humans in control of their environment and diet do to these horses in the name of pot hunting!"


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## FlyingCircus (6 November 2019)

Looks like someone is doing the rounds getting everything deleted...

Makes me so sad for the horses. There is outrage, then there is a cover up mission and in a weeks time it is all forgotten...


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## FlyingCircus (6 November 2019)

Foxychops said:



			Friend of a friend mentionedthey tied their show pony up really tight with its head in the air all night so obviously no food or water with the light on. If you have to do this sort of thing then you need to give up horses or get a pony you can control.
		
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I've heard all sorts from show people. Trimming excessively, dehydrating and not feeding to get LHCs. Then a number who think it's okay to do this sort of thing. Those that have large adults on tiny ponies to "school" them for the child who is plonked on for the go around.

There are practices i disagree with in most discliplines though, not exclusive to showing.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (6 November 2019)

FlyingCircus said:



			Looks like someone is doing the rounds getting everything deleted...

Makes me so sad for the horses. There is outrage, then there is a cover up mission and in a weeks time it is all forgotten...
		
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I hope others have screen shotted or filmed the clip?


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

MrsJingle said:



			I think you miss my point Goldenstar - quite simply he looks nothing like and ID let alone an exceptional sample of the magnificent breed! Not for one moment am I suggesting he is not a magnificent sample - he might well be - but he sure doesn't look like one with half a ton of excess fat lathered on him does he? Of course it isnt his fault he looks like that, what a ridiculous thing to say?  I cant think anyone commenting on this thread thinks it is the horse's fault - the whole point of the discussion is that is what 'we' as humans in control of their environment and diet do to these horses in the name of pot hunting!"
		
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Does not matter if a horse was emaciated or far too fat I can always see how I want them to look when they are at their best .
If matters not a jot about the flab thatâ€™s a fantastically put together horse .


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## FlyingCircus (6 November 2019)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			I hope others have screen shotted or filmed the clip?
		
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A number of people have been trying to raise awareness on FB but those posts seem to be slowly vanishing.


LR has posted another video with no explanation of previous video, with same sponsors linked.


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

Any one considered the other maxi cobs might have been fatter.


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## JFTDWS (6 November 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			Any one considered the other maxi cobs might have been fatter.
		
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Then surely a responsibly judge should have refused to award any prizes and had everything in the ring vetted out?

I know, right - I'm an idealist!


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

dogatemysalad said:



			Changing your horse feed manufacturer is easy, but changes nothing. 

How many people  who really think this is unacceptable would boycott and petition  the BSHA and any event promoted by LR and the 8 other companies that sponsor her ?
		
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Companies want to sell stuff , if enough people dont buy the stuff they will notice quickly .


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## Frano (6 November 2019)

Shocking. What is it meant to teach the horse?


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## Mrs. Jingle (6 November 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			Does not matter if a horse was emaciated or far too fat I can always see how I want them to look when they are at their best .
If matters not a jot about the flab thatâ€™s a fantastically put together horse .
		
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Total rubbish - sorry but if you think it matters not a jot if a horse is emaciated or fat so longer as under that severe and obvious force feeding abuse lurks a decent sort then you probably would make a pretty acceptable judge in maxi cob and other overweight obese horse show classes.  I have had a few full ID's with decent breeding and if I let even one of them look like that I would have been reported PDQ to the ISPCA for animal cruelty- and rightly so. And I certainly would NOT be trying to purport myself as someone who can always 'see' through the fat and abuse how they would look at their best, rather I would try to rapidly condemn the sad state of the horse rather than blowing my own ineffectual trumpet of knowledge of the ID breed.  Ignorant attitudes like yours just further this cruelty and ignorance in the showing world IMO.


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## Red-1 (6 November 2019)

Had a look at the business page and reviews with comments. Seems someone who appears to work for her is saying the horse can move his head freely. That person s going down comments defending the training and says 'our' horses are happier than your horses (maybe a teenage employee???).

If that was an employee then she may be better keeping quiet, as Lynne has done. People seem to think she is a groom. I don't know if that is true or not.

Not sure the comments about it being acceptable will help the business at all, I do think LR will have to issue some kind of apology, for the sponsors' business if nothing else.


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

MrsJingle said:



			Total rubbish - sorry but if you think it matters not a jot if a horse is emaciated or fat so longer as under that severe and obvious force feeding abuse lurks a decent sort then you probably would make a pretty acceptable judge in maxi cob and other overweight obese horse show classes.  I have had a few full ID's with decent breeding and if I let even one of them look like that I would have been reported PDQ to the ISPCA for animal cruelty- and rightly so. And I certainly would NOT be trying to purport myself as someone who can always 'see' through the fat and abuse how they would look at their best, rather I would try to rapidly condemn the sad state of the horse rather than blowing my own ineffectual trumpet of knowledge of the ID breed.  Ignorant attitudes like yours just further this cruelty and ignorance in the showing world IMO.
		
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What on earth are you talking about .
I can see a horses conformation thin or fat .
I fail to see why thatâ€™s ignorant .
Heâ€™s was a beautifully put together horse that does not change because heâ€™s fat I would have bought him in a heartbeat .
Then put him on a two year diet .
I have condemned the size of the horse does not change the fact he was a beautiful example.
So why donâ€™t you go and cool down a bit .
You are unnecessarily rude .


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## JFTDWS (6 November 2019)

MrsJingle said:



			Total rubbish - sorry but if you think it matters not a jot if a horse is emaciated or fat so longer as under that severe and obvious force feeding abuse lurks a decent sort then you probably would make a pretty acceptable judge in maxi cob and other overweight obese horse show classes.  I have had a few full ID's with decent breeding and if I let even one of them look like that I would have been reported PDQ to the ISPCA for animal cruelty- and rightly so. And I certainly would NOT be trying to purport myself as someone who can always 'see' through the fat and abuse how they would look at their best, rather I would try to rapidly condemn the sad state of the horse rather than blowing my own ineffectual trumpet of knowledge of the ID breed.  Ignorant attitudes like yours just further this cruelty and ignorance in the showing world IMO.
		
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This isn't helpful at all.  GS would make a super maxi cob judge if she wanted to - she doesn't want to see horses that fat.  Whether the ID is a good example or not is entirely irrelevant to the question of whether it is obese (it was) and whether that contributed to its untimely death (it may have).  It's even more irrelevant to whether it's acceptable to tie a horse's head down.

Play nicely, children.


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

AdorableAlice said:



			It is easy to produce a show horse without abuse, not all owners are using inappropriate methods.  

The grey horse was exceptional in terms of conformation.  His carer made him what he was, the society under whose rules he competed allowed him to be abused and the HOYs judge was at fault for rewarding the abuse.
		
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Exactly


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

JFTD-WS said:



			This isn't helpful at all.  GS would make a super maxi cob judge if she wanted to - she doesn't want to see horses that fat.  Whether the ID is a good example or not is entirely irrelevant to the question of whether it is obese (it was) and whether that contributed to its untimely death (it may have).  It's even more irrelevant to whether it's acceptable to tie a horse's head down.

Play nicely, children.
		
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Thank you I was playing nicely .


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## ester (6 November 2019)

FlyingCircus said:



			Looks like someone is doing the rounds getting everything deleted...

Makes me so sad for the horses. There is outrage, then there is a cover up mission and in a weeks time it is all forgotten...
		
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The vid on this thread still exists and I know a few people with screen recordings... ?


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## JFTDWS (6 November 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			Thank you I was playing nicely .
		
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I know you were


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## Mrs. Jingle (6 November 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			What on earth are you talking about .
I can see a horses conformation thin or fat .
I fail to see why thatâ€™s ignorant .
Heâ€™s was a beautifully put together horse that does not change because heâ€™s fat I would have bought him in a heartbeat .
Then put him on a two year diet .
I have condemned the size of the horse does not change the fact he was a beautiful example.
So why donâ€™t you go and cool down a bit .
You are unnecessarily rude .
		
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You clearly said it matters not a jot if a horse is emaciated or obese - well SORRY IMO and I am probably going to be VERY rude here yet again it does matter - hugely and it matters most of all in the showing world and if you cannot see that then clearly we are on two ends of the spectrum of horse abuse and acceptance of it. 



JFTD-WS said:



			This isn't helpful at all.  GS would make a super maxi cob judge if she wanted to - she doesn't want to see horses that fat.  Whether the ID is a good example or not is entirely irrelevant to the question of whether it is obese (it was) and whether that contributed to its untimely death (it may have).  It's even more irrelevant to whether it's acceptable to tie a horse's head down.

Play nicely, children.
		
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But how can you say it is not relevant to the question of the horse with the tied down head abuse? All abuse that is inflicted on ANY show horse is relevant - why do you think we should just discuss a very small part of it and totally ignore the fact the same person, sponsored by the same company, and has also has shown and succeeded and a very top level with a grossly overweight horse? of course it is relevant to the discussion?


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## tristar (6 November 2019)

another sick example of so called top producers,  and its young so has no real muscle to hold that position without severe discomfort, its a very hard person who does that to a horse.

ponies and horses left in stables for hours with their head in that  position, disgusting, and i have no respect for these idiots


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

Condition matters not a jot to seeing a horses conformation .


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## JFTDWS (6 November 2019)

MrsJingle said:



			But how can you not say it is not relevant to the question of the horse with the tied down head abuse? All abuse that is inflicted on ANY show horse is relevant - why do you think we should just discuss a very small part of it and totally ignore the fact the same person, sponsored by the same company, and has also has shown and succeeded and a very top level with a grossly overweight horse? of course it is relevant to the discussion?
		
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Are you even reading posts?  The conformation of that horse, and whether or not it is a good example of the breed.  That is irrelevant to whether it is acceptable to tie a horse's head down or not.

The fact that the grey is obese has been universally agreed by every poster who has commented on it - including GS.  Heck, I mentioned the damn horse in the original post, so please don't preach its relevance to me.


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## tristar (6 November 2019)

that grey horse looks as if its been on steroids for sure, its obscene


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## ester (6 November 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			Condition matters not a jot to seeing a horses conformation .
		
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exactly what I read GS.


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## holeymoley (6 November 2019)

Red-1 said:



			Had a look at the business page and reviews with comments. Seems someone who appears to work for her is saying the horse can move his head freely. That person s going down comments defending the training and says 'our' horses are happier than your horses (maybe a teenage employee???).

If that was an employee then she may be better keeping quiet, as Lynne has done. People seem to think she is a groom. I don't know if that is true or not.

Not sure the comments about it being acceptable will help the business at all, I do think LR will have to issue some kind of apology, for the sponsors' business if nothing else.
		
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dear oh dear, Iâ€™ve just read the fb comments from the groom...


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## Red-1 (6 November 2019)

JFTD-WS said:



			The poster of the screenshot has been threatened with police action by, I think, the individual you mean.  Unjustifiably, of course, there is no basis for any claims of wrongdoing.
		
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I am not sure about that. The video was posted on a public business page, but I think the person who took the video may still have copyright over the recording. I am not sure about that though. 

I am surprised that Bailey's Horse Feeds have not yet had any reviews on their own FB page. I would suspect they will review the situation at 9am tomorrow.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (6 November 2019)

holeymoley said:



			dear oh dear, Iâ€™ve just read the fb comments from the groom...
		
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And... they are all gone.... deleter at work....


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## Mrs. Jingle (6 November 2019)

Ok here we go again time for me to leave the thread - enjoy the ensuing 'discussion and lets all rest assured that so long as the horse is a good sort underneath the blubber and very questionable training then OF COURSE it deserves to win HOYs  - yep under that criteria I do agree GS would make a wonderful MC judge   You just have to love H&H debates!


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## Red-1 (6 November 2019)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			And... they are all gone.... deleter at work....
		
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If it is a teenage employee then I hope they are all deleted. Hope she learns a life lesson without it being destructive to her long term.


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## Red-1 (6 November 2019)

MrsJingle said:



			Ok here we go again time for me to leave the thread - enjoy the ensuing 'discussion and lets all rest assured that so long as the horse is a good sort underneath the blubber and very questionable training then OF COURSE it deserves to win HOYs  - yep under that criteria I do agree GS would make a wonderful MC judge   You just have to love H&H debates!
		
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I am not sure GS has said she would have him win, especially whilst in that condition, just that he was a lovely ID under the blubber. Not sure she would have him win a Maxi Cob class at all, but I am sure she will be along to clarify for you.


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## Mrs. Jingle (6 November 2019)

Red-1 said:



			I am not sure GS has said she would have him win, especially whilst in that condition, just that he was a lovely ID under the blubber. Not sure she would have him win a Maxi Cob class at all, but I am sure she will be along to clarify for you.
		
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Oh I am sure she will too  Unfortunatley I have more interesting things to do for now - will see her resposne at some point when boredom sets in again


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## Roasted Chestnuts (6 November 2019)

If you have a name you can do what you like. Pretty much the same across the whole world in every sport.

sidereins are not evil, itâ€™s how they are used same as everything else.

Excess condition can be used to hide faults. Yes basic confo wonâ€™t change much however popping extra weight on will hide some things which is what MJ was saying. Shame to like so much weight on and ID to make it something itâ€™s not. 

That video is horrendous. Poor cob but hey folk will do what they like with their horses regardless. Shame really


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## JFTDWS (6 November 2019)

Red-1 said:



			I am not sure about that. The video was posted on a public business page, but I think the person who took the video may still have copyright over the recording. I am not sure about that though.

I am surprised that Bailey's Horse Feeds have not yet had any reviews on their own FB page. I would suspect they will review the situation at 9am tomorrow.
		
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The screenshot is not the video though and I think that a screenshot of a public post is not considered to be covered by copyright in the same way as the screenshot of a shared image would be.


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## Kaylum (6 November 2019)

What is showing actually achieving anyway. A higher price for a horse if it wins a class? It's not improving the quality of the animals or giving them a better life. There are so many qualifiers to make money these days when you see an advert saying qualified for blah blah it doesn't impress. If there are 2 in a chaps class they will qualify whatever standard they are and have seen that happen.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (6 November 2019)

Kaylum said:



			What is showing actually achieving anyway. A higher price for a horse if it wins a class? It's not improving the quality of the animals or giving them a better life. There are so many qualifiers to make money these days when you see an advert saying qualified for blah blah it doesn't impress. If there are 2 in a chaps class they will qualify whatever standard they are and have seen that happen.
		
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sorry what are you questioning about showing?? Are you questioning the point of it? Or the methods or the trends of the winners?? Just curious


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## JFTDWS (6 November 2019)

MrsJingle said:



			lets all rest assured that so long as the horse is a good sort underneath the blubber and very questionable training then OF COURSE it deserves to win HOYs
		
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Something literally nobody has said, again.  Please read the thread and respond within the boundaries of the generally perceived reality, and not one of your own invention, thank you kindly.


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## Red-1 (6 November 2019)

JFTD-WS said:



			The screenshot is not the video though and I think that a screenshot of a public post is not considered to be covered by copyright in the same way as the screenshot of a shared image would be.
		
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Ah, I thought it was the video that they were threatening action over. Many people have screen saved it on an iPhone (not that I have one of the, nor would I have the wherewithal to make it do that action- I am a dinosaur). Not that I am a copyright aficionado either. But, I would be careful when lifting other people's stuff from their pages to share. Sharing something using the share button is different. Screen shouting or screen lifting a video is something I would be wary of.


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## AdorableAlice (6 November 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			Condition matters not a jot to seeing a horses conformation .
		
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If you know what conformation is !
I have had a lovely time picking out horses to view for a friend going to the Monart sales.  A few stunners in the catalogue.


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

MrsJingle said:



			You clearly said it matters not a jot if a horse is emaciated or obese - well SORRY IMO and I am probably going to be VERY rude here yet again it does matter - hugely and it matters most of all in the showing world and if you cannot see that then clearly we are on two ends of the spectrum of horse abuse and acceptance of it. :
		
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You are simply wildly misreading what I posted .
You know full well I was saying conformation is correct or in correct condition fat or slim does not change it .


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## JFTDWS (6 November 2019)

Red-1 said:



			Ah, I thought it was the video that they were threatening action over. Many people have screen saved it on an iPhone (not that I have one of the, nor would I have the wherewithal to make it do that action- I am a dinosaur). Not that I am a copyright aficionado either. But, I would be careful when lifting other people's stuff from their pages to share. Sharing something using the share button is different. Screen shouting or screen lifting a video is something I would be wary of.
		
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It's one of the areas of developing law - but generally screenshotting a public post and sharing it is fairly acceptable provided there's no other legal infringements alongside it.


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

AdorableAlice said:



			If you know what conformation is !
I have had a lovely time picking out horses to view for a friend going to the Monart sales.  A few stunners in the catalogue.
		
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They always have some stunners with correspondingly stunning prices .


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## Tiddlypom (6 November 2019)

Jovian was forced to become so obese so that numptie judges could be fooled into thinking that he became a category of horse that he was not. He was a very good horse, but he was not a maxi cob.

A good judge can evaluate a horse whatever its body score, which is not at all the same thing as condoning extremes of body scores.


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## ester (6 November 2019)

If you post something on a public fb page I think it's hard to start jumping around legally about it. 

Can I presume the grooms comment was along the lines of what the big lickers say 'but they have every whim catered for, they live a life of luxury' etc etc?


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

tristar said:



			that grey horse looks as if its been on steroids for sure, its obscene
		
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Itâ€™s an Irish draught I think you could quite easily get one like that on good plain showing feeding .
I should know I three of them they take the term good doer to another level .
One is hunting two days a week on low energy haylege and that not even ad-lib .
Heâ€™s full of energy and looking very well I will see those ribs this season I am determined .


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## ester (6 November 2019)

AdorableAlice said:



			It is easy to produce a show horse without abuse, not all owners are using inappropriate methods.
		
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And that to me makes it ever sadder that methods like this persist right up to the top


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## holeymoley (6 November 2019)

The comments are still there... 

Basically says that everyone else is stupid and the horse is working correctly


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## ester (6 November 2019)

good grief


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## Tihamandturkey (6 November 2019)

I'm so sickened by this.

How anyone can condone either the tying down of the cob in the OP (rollkur by any other name) or the disgusting obesity of the beautiful ID beggars all belief ðŸ˜ž 

LR and all her sponsors should be held to account IMO


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## AdorableAlice (6 November 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			Itâ€™s an Irish draught I think you could quite easily get one like that on good plain showing feeding .
I should know I three of them they take the term good doer to another level .
One is hunting two days a week on low energy haylege and that not even ad-lib .
Heâ€™s full of energy and looking very well I will see those ribs this season I am determined .
		
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My ID show horse keeps herself in show condition.  No bucket feed required.


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

AdorableAlice said:



			My ID show horse keeps herself in show condition.  No bucket feed required.
View attachment 38273

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fatty does that and goes under the two strands of electric fence on his side where thereâ€™s a wee dip in the ground .


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## ecb89 (6 November 2019)

Another ID owner here, my horse could get fat off fresh air. Currently got suspected ulcers, no sign of weightloss though!  However that grey is terribly obese


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## Tihamandturkey (6 November 2019)

AdorableAlice said:



			My ID show horse keeps herself in show condition.  No bucket feed required.
View attachment 38273

Click to expand...

ðŸ˜†


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## FlyingCircus (6 November 2019)

I wonder what it will take to make a difference. All her sponsors as well as the person in question seem to be ignoring the whole situation apart from deleting comments.


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## AdorableAlice (6 November 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			fatty does that and goes under the two strands of electric fence on his side where thereâ€™s a wee dip in the ground .
		
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Poor Fatty, you are obviously starving him into such positions !

Back to the subject of cobs, there are many fat WH intermediate ponies stuffed to try to turn them into LW cobs nowadays.  I prefer the HW classes, at least there are cobs in it, even if some are glorified cart horses.


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## ester (6 November 2019)

FlyingCircus said:



			I wonder what it will take to make a difference. All her sponsors as well as the person in question seem to be ignoring the whole situation apart from deleting comments.
		
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surprised there aren't more fb reviews as don't think they can remove them iirc.


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## PapaverFollis (6 November 2019)

Currently feeding my 16.2hh draught-ishthing about the same amounts as I'm feeding my 15.1h welsh-ish thing...  guess which one is losing a bit of chub and which is probably actually gaining...


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

PapaverFollis said:



			Currently feeding my 16.2hh draught-ishthing about the same amounts as I'm feeding my 15.1h welsh-ish thing...  guess which one is losing a bit of chub and which is probably actually gaining...
		
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Well they did breed in thriftiness when they started to develop the ID .
They selected good doing mares because they worked and had foals .


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## Shilasdair (6 November 2019)

tristar said:



			that grey horse looks as if its been on steroids for sure, its obscene
		
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How rude.
One of mine lives her life on steroids and she's nowhere near that fat (I will admit she's a bit curvy at times though).


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## ecb89 (6 November 2019)

PapaverFollis said:



			Currently feeding my 16.2hh draught-ishthing about the same amounts as I'm feeding my 15.1h welsh-ish thing...  guess which one is losing a bit of chub and which is probably actually gaining...
		
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Just out of interest, what do you feed your ID?


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## Mule (6 November 2019)

Aside from the welfare issue with strapping a horses head down for extended periods of time, I don't understand what it's supposed to achieve. It won't work to train it to keep its head down as the horse gets pressure but no release. I'd imagine it would just cause sore/ pulled muscles.


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## PapaverFollis (6 November 2019)

ecb89 said:



			Just out of interest, what do you feed your ID?
		
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Weighed portions of soaked hay, grazing (restricted in summer), Topchop Zero for when she's scoffed everything and currently 1/4 Stubbs scoop fast fibre with some supplements in. Was Speedibeet but she went off it.

Basically not very much!  She's still fatter than I'd like.


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

They amaze me IDâ€™s once mature they seem to be able to live on air .
I have had to accept you canâ€™t feed them ad-lib  forage and keep them slim looking unless they are working very hard .
You get a few easy years when they are maturing but once they top out you have to so careful .


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## [139672] (6 November 2019)

I cannot watch that video, chickened out. I worked in a showing and showjumping yard many years ago when 17. Had a jumper who hated water jumps. To cure this they used to jump him over them at home with an elastic band wound very tight around one ear. He jumped them at home, at shows he took one look at them and bolted out of the ring. Their top show horse theyâ€™d leave standing in a stable all day with 2-3 rugs on and the stable light on, in the hope that he wouldnâ€™t start to lose his summer coat too soon.  He used to stand there sweating and shuffling from one front foot to the other. They took in a small pony for a few weeks which was too fat and they said they could help. The head girl decided to literally starve him, with just water and a few tiny amounts of hay a few times a day and starved all night. After a few days he was so poorly they had to call the vet in. I lasted in that job 8 months, about 7 months, 3 weeks and 3 days too long!! ðŸ˜¡. Horrible family


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## Goldenstar (6 November 2019)

Shilasdair said:



			How rude.
One of mine lives her life on steroids and she's nowhere near that fat (I will admit she's a bit curvy at times though).
		
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I donâ€™t think Tristan was meaning to be rude , I think she was referring to the rumours you hear that some unscrupulous people bulk up show horses using steroids


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## [139672] (6 November 2019)

At the showing yard re my post above, I used to have to make a large bowl of homemade rice pudding everyday to feed to their show horses to fatten them up.


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## BallyRoanBaubles (6 November 2019)

Lownthwaite Rob said:



			I cannot watch that video, chickened out. I worked in a showing and showjumping yard many years ago when 17. Had a jumper who hated water jumps. To cure this they used to jump him over them at home with an elastic band wound very tight around one ear. He jumped them at home, at shows he took one look at them and bolted out of the ring. Their top show horse theyâ€™d leave standing in a stable all day with 2-3 rugs on and the stable light on, in the hope that he wouldnâ€™t start to lose his summer coat too soon.  He used to stand there sweating and shuffling from one front foot to the other. They took in a small pony for a few weeks which was too fat and they said they could help. The head girl decided to literally starve him, with just water and a few tiny amounts of hay a few times a day and starved all night. After a few days he was so poorly they had to call the vet in. I lasted in that job 8 months, about 7 months, 3 weeks and 3 days too long!! ðŸ˜¡. Horrible family
		
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Out of interest what was the elastic band round the ear suppose to do?


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## shortstuff99 (6 November 2019)

My old mare is the epitome of a LW show cob, and could (and did) a hard days hunting. If I was to take her out now would I even get a look in against these weird fat not cobs?


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## [139672] (6 November 2019)

BallyRoanBoy said:



			Out of interest what was the elastic band round the ear suppose to do?
		
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Distract him!  I asked her about it but I didnâ€™t say anything. I would react differently now but I was very young then and the whole family and head girl were very domineering.  I feel guilty now thinking about it, if Iâ€™d complained I would have had to leave and would it have stopped them?  No.


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## HashRouge (6 November 2019)

MrsJingle said:



			Ok here we go again time for me to leave the thread - enjoy the ensuing 'discussion and lets all rest assured that so long as the horse is a good sort underneath the blubber and very questionable training then OF COURSE it deserves to win HOYs  - yep under that criteria I do agree GS would make a wonderful MC judge   You just have to love H&H debates!
		
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I think you've misread what she said. Her point (certainly how I and most other posters have read it) was that whether a horse is obese or emaciated, she can tell if it is well put together. I'll admit I did have to read it twice to get this - at first, like you, I thought she meant it didn't matter if a horse was fat or thin.


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## Lurfy (7 November 2019)

The tying of the head is just so backward and shameful. The fact the woman posted it and thought it appropriate speaks volumes about her. I wish she would give up horses and take up another hobby not involving animate objects.

The overweight horse is one of the fattest I have ever seen. RIP poor boy. Poor horses, both of them. Sometimes I despair at what some horses have to endure at the hands of so called civilized people


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## twiggy2 (7 November 2019)

MrsJingle said:



			Ok here we go again time for me to leave the thread - enjoy the ensuing 'discussion and lets all rest assured that so long as the horse is a good sort underneath the blubber and very questionable training then OF COURSE it deserves to win HOYs  - yep under that criteria I do agree GS would make a wonderful MC judge   You just have to love H&H debates!
		
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You are taking the comment by GS out of context, I have no idea if that's intentional or not. The horse is obscene and it's cruel I feel that's been agreed on by all, what GS said is the fat or lack of it does not prevent them from being able to see if the conformation of that horse is correct or not, that in turn allows them to picture in their mind what the horse would look like at th correct body weight


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## Goldenstar (7 November 2019)

mule said:



			Aside from the welfare issue with strapping a horses head down for extended periods of time, I don't understand what it's supposed to achieve. It won't work to train it to keep its head down as the horse gets pressure but no release. I'd imagine it would just cause sore/ pulled muscles.
		
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It wonâ€™t build muscle but it will habituate the horse to carrying its head like that.
Thatâ€™s not a good thing in classical training terms but it will do that .
Pressure on the mouth equals tuck in nose .
Itâ€™s not the same as using side reins to stretch the horse and encourage it to seek forwards thatâ€™s a long job.


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## honetpot (7 November 2019)

I have a maxi cob type IDX. When I bought him as a weaned foal he was weedy and if you did not know his breeding you wouldnâ€™t look twice at him.He has lived on grass and hay, winters out no rugs, and now at three he is huge in all ways.
 The feed companies do not care about horse welfare because their profits are made from people buying expensively bagged cereal most of which is not needed.
 I have seen LR close up in the ring and she is a very professional performer, she almost dares the judges not to place her, and believe me everyone knows everyone in the line up, itâ€™s a very small pond. It takes a strong team of judges to upset the order.
 I can not imagine what possessed her or her team to post that clip, it not in my observation her, her normally carefully presented style. Unless it gets out further I doubt Baileys will care.


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## Tiddlypom (7 November 2019)

twiggy2 said:



			You are taking the comment by GS out of context, I have no idea if that's intentional or not. The horse is obscene and it's cruel I feel that's been agreed on by all, what GS said is the fat or lack of it does not prevent them from being able to see if the conformation of that horse is correct or not, that in turn allows them to picture in their mind what the horse would look like at th correct body weight
		
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Itâ€™s just Mrs J going off on one of her random tirades. She does this from time to time. Maybe she needs to let off steam somewhere and HHO is where she does this.

It was clear to the rest of us that GS was as horrified as the rest of us at Jovianâ€™s gross obesity. Here are some of GSâ€™s earlier posts. Perhaps Mrs J didnâ€™t read the full thread, though I suspect that she did.



Goldenstar said:



			Those photos are gross .
And should get the keeper of the horses a warning from the RSPCA that they are failing to provide correct nutrition not a sash from a show .

It was the most beautiful horse under all that fat .
		
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Goldenstar said:



			I would like hope judges are more aware now that this gives showing a bad name .
Show horses should be carrying a lot of muscle more like a dressage horse than an eventer .
Some conformation flaws can be covered up by fat , ( although the horse in the pictures was a beauty ) so thatâ€™s one reason some horses get fattened up .
In Ireland they call it grubbing up thatâ€™s basically taking a perfectly normal three or four year old and stuffing itâ€™s face with masses of food .
They grow too fast and damage their limbs itâ€™s very sad .
I think it got be a fat arms race at one time I think  ( hope ) there is more awareness now .
I was recently looking ( some of you can guess why ) at the guidelines for ID ridden classes and they clearly state that fat horses will be marked down .
Perhaps I will find out in the summer if they mean it .
		
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## cundlegreen (7 November 2019)

mule said:



			Aside from the welfare issue with strapping a horses head down for extended periods of time, I don't understand what it's supposed to achieve. It won't work to train it to keep its head down as the horse gets pressure but no release. I'd imagine it would just cause sore/ pulled muscles.
		
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Also, how can it breathe?


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## cundlegreen (7 November 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			They amaze me IDâ€™s once mature they seem to be able to live on air .
I have had to accept you canâ€™t feed them ad-lib  forage and keep them slim looking unless they are working very hard .
You get a few easy years when they are maturing but once they top out you have to so careful .
		
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I don't know about when mature! I've just bought my first ID, a 6 month old foal that I am being very careful when feeding. He is huge, 14.1hh already with tree trunk legs. Having been warned by a couple of irish people that ID's are suffering from OCD and spavins, I am being very careful to feed him as little hard feed as possible, and bulking him with hay. He really does eat for england!


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## dorsetladette (7 November 2019)

mule said:



			Aside from the welfare issue with strapping a horses head down for extended periods of time, I don't understand what it's supposed to achieve. It won't work to train it to keep its head down as the horse gets pressure but no release. I'd imagine it would just cause sore/ pulled muscles.
		
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From what I remember when asking as a kid why it was done (out of the mouths of babes, generally very loudly on a show ground LOL) It was explained to me like this. 

We had a pony come to us with massive muscle build up underneath his neck - this was due to him being stabled most of his life and being fed hay from a hay rack that was far to high, so he spent most of his time reaching up to either pull hay or look over the door. He was turned out and when stabled fed from the floor which corrected the muscling up in time. So, it was explained to me as a child that the tying in for long periods worked in much the same way. That the muscle would develop unnaturally in the neck and the pony would then appear to have a nice head carriage. 

So I've always thought you end up with overdeveloped muscle on top and under developed underneath the neck.


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## Goldenstar (7 November 2019)

twiggy2 said:



			You are taking the comment by GS out of context, I have no idea if that's intentional or not. The horse is obscene and it's cruel I feel that's been agreed on by all, what GS said is the fat or lack of it does not prevent them from being able to see if the conformation of that horse is correct or not, that in turn allows them to picture in their mind what the horse would look like at th correct body weight
		
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Tiddlypom said:



			Itâ€™s just Mrs J going off on one of her random tirades. She does this from time to time. Maybe she needs to let off steam somewhere and HHO is where she does this.

It was clear to the rest of us that GS was as horrified as the rest of us at Jovianâ€™s gross obesity. Here are some of GSâ€™s earlier posts. Perhaps Mrs J didnâ€™t read the full thread, though I suspect that she did.
		
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Thank you both very much but there is no need


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## Pearlsasinger (7 November 2019)

This thread has reminded me of a well-known, highly respected BSPS judge that I was stewarding for one day, many years ago.  He was muttering darkly about LR and her horses, even then (must be well over 10 yrs ago).

That judge is sadly missed but obviously not all the judges of his era were of the same mind, unfortunately.


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## ecb89 (7 November 2019)

PapaverFollis said:



			Weighed portions of soaked hay, grazing (restricted in summer), Topchop Zero for when she's scoffed everything and currently 1/4 Stubbs scoop fast fibre with some supplements in. Was Speedibeet but she went off it.

Basically not very much!  She's still fatter than I'd like.
		
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Mine gets handful of hifi and a tiny bit of speedibeet as a carrier for his equivite, linseed and global herbs immuplus. Plus massive amounts of hay.

We moved yards early September and he is now on much more hay.

He was always really lethargic and getting viruses at his old yard. Didnâ€™t want to go forwards. Had blood tests and was anaemic. Now showing signs of ulcers, think heâ€™s has them for at least a year unfortunately


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## tristar (7 November 2019)

Shilasdair said:



			How rude.
One of mine lives her life on steroids and she's nowhere near that fat (I will admit she's a bit curvy at times though).
		
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sorry to say, i have been on yards where steroids were given to show horses to make them look like that


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## Goldenstar (7 November 2019)

I have to restrict my IDâ€™s access to forage most of the time .
At the minute they are on rationed amounts of low energy haylege .
They are getting turnout ( varied amounts due to whatâ€™s going on ) but thereâ€™s still grass so I am having to careful when they are inside .
H is my main worry because heâ€™s hunting and needs to be slim heâ€™s been in work since May had a bare paddock and was standing in all day in summer .
Heâ€™s a very good doer heâ€™s hunting on half a scoop of bran a sprinkle of oats and a double hand full of grass cubes and measured haylege .
If he has to miss turn out ( he has not yet ) I will use Top CHop zero and swingers he loosing weight now because heâ€™s hunting I think three perhaps four weeks from now I will be able to increase the forage .
Fatty who is retired is on a even stricter regime one thing about him is he wonâ€™t eat straw chop he just wastes it heâ€™s out all day and on minimal forage at night but heâ€™s looking slimmer the best since he retired I will crack it this winter .
Sky the new boy is on a little more than H heâ€™s lost weight since he arrived so I can be a little more relaxed heâ€™s gets the same meagre bucket feed he will start hunting soon I expect I will be able to increase the forage quite quickly once that happens .

I love IDâ€™s , but donâ€™t buy one unless you can have a weight loss / control strategy that you can stick to .
They are heavy horses and if you want them to hunt and last you need to protect them by getting them slim , easier said than done .
I took me time to accept you canâ€™t give them all the forage they will eat unless they are working really hard .


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## Mrs. Jingle (7 November 2019)

HashRouge said:



			I think you've misread what she said. Her point (certainly how I and most other posters have read it) was that whether a horse is obese or emaciated, she can tell if it is well put together. I'll admit I did have to read it twice to get this - at first, like you, I thought she meant it didn't matter if a horse was fat or thin.
		
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Thank you HashRouge for your reasonable and polite critique of my post and my interpretation and intentions on this thread. Point taken - from you anyway


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## mle22 (7 November 2019)

We have an ID that events and also does a little showing. We always joke that at events, sheâ€™s the fattest horse there, but at shows, sheâ€™s one of the skinniest. If we let her eat as much as sheâ€™d like and hogged her, we could turn her into a maxi cob very easily!


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## dorsetladette (7 November 2019)

tristar said:



			sorry to say, i have been on yards where steroids were given to show horses to make them look like that
		
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Its sad that this sort of thing prospers yet my parents dissolved their business as apparently a 'properly' produced pony that takes time and patience to set them up for a long and successful showing career (or any other career) is not what the majority of people want. Big bucks can be made with corner cutting, but at the cost of the horse. I imagine this horse will probably develop some some of back or neck problem later on down the line. 

Ponies my parents produced worked their way up through the ranks slowly and then maintained that position for a long time. Unfortunately the fat grey cob just shows that cutting corners doesn't produce a long lasting 'working' horse in any sphere.


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## cobgoblin (7 November 2019)

I find it really sad that LR has come to this. 

I bought a maxi cob off her years ago, before she was famous.... And I mean many years ago, we had that cob for thirty years. At the time she was very concerned about her horses and we found her pleasant to deal with.


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## dominobrown (7 November 2019)

Side reins are not evil, there is a time and place for them if correctly used (I have used them today), however in that clip they are far from correct.
Also in my opinion, and I may be wrong, is that if you teach a horse to go like that it will be one that always â€œhidesâ€ behind the contact and over curls/ bends, which I think is often harder to fix than one which is a little above the bit.
I have just broken in a stunning cappa Irish draught, similar time Jovian. She was like a side of house when she came but slimmed down nicely. Never actually did use side reins on her. She was a bit pokey nosed and all over the place, but a bit further down the line (she is now riding 5) when she is balanced (big youngsters due struggle with balance) she actually has a lovely outline. Itâ€™s by no means consistent, just a glimpse of what will come when she is more balanced and developed. Problem is to produce her for the show ring from a 4 year old to what LR / show producers have them like it would probably take me 3/4 years ðŸ˜‚ 
I actually do school show cobs for a top producer and they are actually properly produced. They are big but fit, with a lot of top line but actually not much fat. Think they are fed baileys too actually but they are fed the lo cal balanced and Speedi beet I think. They do gallop/ fast work at least once a week, a lot of road work and school and few times a week and have a â€œfunâ€ session playing over poles/ jumps etc. They are actually very fit... they can go for a 2 hour hack with fast work in and manage fine.


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## meleeka (7 November 2019)

Thatâ€™s good to know dominobrown, that this isnâ€™t the norm for top producers.  

I knew someone that left their horses tied for hours like this.  The horse was poor and it did have a very weedy neck but it was a general lack of condition.  Thank goodness this method didnâ€™t actual work as it would have looked most odd with muscle on the top of its neck and literally none anywhere else!   The same people were prosecuted later after a dead pony  was found in a stable that had been there a couple of weeks ðŸ˜±


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## Cortez (7 November 2019)

"Tying back" is unfortunately still done at some of the more backward yards here in Ireland, although I feel/hope it is disappearing as people embrace more enlightened, modern approaches to backing and training. I have seen horses tied in their stables for hours, even turned out in fields like this. It is instantly apparent when a horse has been started in this way and leads to a lifetime of evasion and contact problems, especially when combined with the use of the terrible old "key" bits, and woefully inexpert long lining.

Ridiculous, massively old fashioned, and harmful / downright cruel.


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## Shilasdair (7 November 2019)

tristar said:



			sorry to say, i have been on yards where steroids were given to show horses to make them look like that
		
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I know - I wasn't being serious in accusing you of rudeness.
My point was more that, despite being on steroids for around 9 years, my mare is yet to reach the levels of obesity that grey had achieved before its sad demise.


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## ester (7 November 2019)

Not all steroids are the same though.


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## FlyingCircus (7 November 2019)

If someone on FB is to believed, looks likr Baileys are washing their hands of the whole situation with a comment to say they can't control what their sponsors do..


Well, no. But you can stop sponsoring them. I despair.


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## JFTDWS (7 November 2019)

ester said:



			Not all steroids are the same though.
		
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One presumes that Shils horse was not on anabolic steroids for the purpose of building up!


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## ester (7 November 2019)

exactly


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## Shilasdair (7 November 2019)

JFTD-WS said:



			One presumes that Shils horse was not on anabolic steroids for the purpose of building up!
		
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No, although the ones she is on are bad for weight gain theoretically.  I think the problem is that very few horses are on them long term so the side effects aren't completely known.


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## Shilasdair (7 November 2019)

Thinking about it, I am sure I've read somewhere that anabolic steroids don't work for horses - so it may be more effective to use corticosteroids if weight gain/increased appetite is your plan.   

It's not my plan, incidentally, I'm supressing the beast's immune system.


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## NinjaPony (7 November 2019)

I used to be stables near LR, about 10 years ago, and at that time was interested in showing. Even back then I was warned by a few people not to go anywhere near her, as she was so hard on her horses. Sad to see that this clearly wasnâ€™t just rumour. Horrible, horrible way to treat a horse, and does demonstrate just how rotten top level showing can really be.


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## Roasted Chestnuts (7 November 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Itâ€™s just Mrs J going off on one of her random tirades. She does this from time to time. Maybe she needs to let off steam somewhere and HHO is where she does this.

It was clear to the rest of us that GS was as horrified as the rest of us at Jovianâ€™s gross obesity. Here are some of GSâ€™s earlier posts. Perhaps Mrs J didnâ€™t read the full thread, though I suspect that she did.
		
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It wasnâ€™t random the post could be read two ways. Other people read the same. sonce that post was pages ago why donâ€™t we go back to the topic at hand. Or is it all just about getting a tuppence worth in.

I see there still hasnâ€™t been a reply other than the young girl who seems to be her groom? Have Bailey a replied? Or have I missed that due to the other stuff being posted??


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## honetpot (7 November 2019)

dorsetladette said:



			From what I remember when asking as a kid why it was done (out of the mouths of babes, generally very loudly on a show ground LOL) It was explained to me like this. 

We had a pony come to us with massive muscle build up underneath his neck - this was due to him being stabled most of his life and being fed hay from a hay rack that was far to high, so he spent most of his time reaching up to either pull hay or look over the door. He was turned out and when stabled fed from the floor which corrected the muscling up in time. So, it was explained to me as a child that the tying in for long periods worked in much the same way. That the muscle would develop unnaturally in the neck and the pony would then appear to have a nice head carriage. 

So I've always thought you end up with overdeveloped muscle on top and under developed underneath the neck.
		
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It can not really work that way as muscle is developed by exercise, thatâ€™s why body builders do specific exercises to build up certain areas. If it worked they would just tie up their arms. An athlete has to maintain flexibility so uses exercise to develop muscles in a different way.
 The best example of the difference between fat and muscle I have seen is a joint of beef. Muscle tissue is pink  itâ€™s cells can be enlarged by exercise and muscle cells work together in organised groups. Fat is white and has and is laid down on top of muscle mainly and is there to store energy. As it enlarges it just gets bigger storing more energy. 
 If you look at an animal thatâ€™s been tied in itâ€™s learned to set the wrong muscles against the pressure, and also the the jaw so when you want it to bend or accept the bit it just runs through the shoulder as itâ€™s muscles have lost flexibility. They may look to have enlarged muscles because other muscles have wasted due to lack of exercise in comparison. Then to cover it up you over feed so it gets fat  and you get the classic rock hard neck. 
  It you added free walk on a loose rein to a set show I wonder how many could do it even for a few steps properly.

There was once a photo of a show hunter in the H&H that had spent the season hunting. You could see every muscle group, it the only show horse I have ever seen that actually was in show condition due to correct work not fat.


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## Mari (7 November 2019)

Alibear said:



			From the photo its in the school in a roller and side reins connected to a snaffle.  Something people do all the time with a lunge rein attached.  So it doesn't upset me, but I agree its not the best press image.  She says its young but no idea what age it is.
		
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Think it said 3 yr old cob starting training.


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## sbloom (7 November 2019)

I see kissing spines, SI and suspensory/hock problems in this cob's future.  The schooling issues are horrible (contact, forwardness etc) but the damage that this posture will do will cause untold problems (only the very lucky get away with this sort of work scot-free!)


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## Blazingsaddles (7 November 2019)

Black Beastie said:



			It wasnâ€™t random the post could be read two ways. Other people read the same. sonce that post was pages ago why donâ€™t we go back to the topic at hand. Or is it all just about getting a tuppence worth in.

GSâ€™ post were quite clear in their condemnation of Jovians obesity.
		
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## DabDab (7 November 2019)

Black Beastie said:



			It wasnâ€™t random the post could be read two ways. Other people read the same. sonce that post was pages ago why donâ€™t we go back to the topic at hand. Or is it all just about getting a tuppence worth in.

I see there still hasnâ€™t been a reply other than the young girl who seems to be her groom? Have Bailey a replied? Or have I missed that due to the other stuff being posted??
		
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Yes tbf I read some of GS' comments to be in support of the judge placing such an obese horse because he had such good conformation underneath. And I assume that was the end of the stick that MrsJ picked up (even if she did go in a bit heavy rather than trying to clarify ðŸ˜œ)


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## DabDab (7 November 2019)

That video is the pits, not that I would ever buy Bailey feed anyway

I real feel for the poor horses in that woman's care.


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## Cinnamontoast (7 November 2019)

ThreeWBs said:









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Thatâ€™s bloody horrific, poor thing can barely walk. ðŸ˜¢


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## Kaylum (8 November 2019)

About 15 years ago I wrote a letter to a horse magazine that she was a specialist on answering questions. I actually asked why horses are in this state at shows. The answer was its condition and topline. That was 15 years ago. It was published as well.


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## Lois Lame (8 November 2019)

dominobrown said:



			Also in my opinion, and I may be wrong, is that if you teach a horse to go like that it will be one that always â€œhidesâ€ behind the contact and over curls/ bends, which I think is often harder to fix than one which is a little above the bit.
		
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Yes, I have heard that too.


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## Lois Lame (8 November 2019)

Kaylum said:



			About 15 years ago I wrote a letter to a horse magazine that she was a specialist on answering questions. I actually asked why horses are in this state at shows. The answer was its condition and topline. That was 15 years ago. It was published as well.
		
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GAD. Makes you think, doesn't it.


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2019)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			As in the dog show world, it's often the judges who need a kick up the arse. At the end of the day they are the ones who can change the way things are done. Penalise an overweight horse enough and others will change their thinking also. But there are so many back handers etc that nepotism is rife (plenty of people will vehemently deny this of course).
		
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Spot on, SLH.

If judges put obese horses down the line, or preferably ordered them out of the ring, the problem of obese horses in showing would stop.


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## dorsetladette (8 November 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Spot on, SLH.

If judges put obese horses down the line, or preferably ordered them out of the ring, the problem of obese horses in showing would stop.
		
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I'd hope this is not to far away. You never know it could come hand in hand with the weight shaming of riders seen in recent years. And how long has it been acceptable for people to be riding horses that should not be carrying their weight?

Problem is in most societies the younger judges starting out on the judging panel are 'trained' marked on their judging by the older generation. Not necessarily wrong but I think it does stop progress.


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## Goldenstar (8 November 2019)

How about radical solutions and I am tongue in cheek here .
Weight ranges for horses based on breed and type and height and all of them on a weigh bridge at the big shows .
This could be a gala event the night before with canapÃ©s and drinks and the great and the good like the weigh ins before boxing matches .


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## ester (8 November 2019)

Someone would need to pay for the research first though.


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## Goldenstar (8 November 2019)

Yes that would be the problem , perhaps Baileys would should we ask


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## tristar (8 November 2019)

Cinnamontoast said:



			Thatâ€™s bloody horrific, poor thing can barely walk. ðŸ˜¢
		
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the discomfort is horrible, the horse should be able to stretch its neck every few minutes, it cant even walk let alone stretch!


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## tristar (8 November 2019)

i know how about a prize for the fittest looking slim horse, in any class,  a special rossette, but of of course then you would be able to see the real conformation of the horse and that would never do, would it?


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## Cloball (8 November 2019)

I'm not sure that would give the desired weight limits within the intersts of their profit margins.


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## Goldenstar (8 November 2019)

Cloball said:



			I'm not sure that would give the desired weight limits within the intersts of their profit margins.
		
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Well if they did the research to set the limits .......


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## tristar (8 November 2019)

well as they make feed to plump up show horses they are hardly likely to view it as a good idea


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## windand rain (8 November 2019)

It would help even if it was slowly introduced to have a system where points were based on condition scoring and other points were added or deducted if the horse was not compliant. Judges unfortunately are to blame every obese horse should be sent out with loss of entry fees Stewards could also be trained to recognise obesity. If they can weigh and disqualify riders on ponies they can condition score the horses


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## ester (8 November 2019)

There is already a points system for most if not all showing judging, would be an easy one to add.


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## Cloball (8 November 2019)

I'm on a welsh cob page and its very  disheartening to see people complain when the vet has said their horse is obese and people pile on saying it can't be fat look at this show horse etc. and welsh cob are supposed to look like that. Amateur and impressionable people use horses in the ring as examples.


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## milliepops (8 November 2019)

according to FB they've withdrawn sponsorship of LR.




__ https://www.facebook.com/BaileysHorseFeeds/posts/10162537076670322


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## Rosemary28 (8 November 2019)

milliepops said:



			according to FB they've withdrawn sponsorship of LR.
		
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Good news


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## JFTDWS (8 November 2019)

Which is really good news.  I mean, I still wouldn't feed their products, and I think it's self-serving in the face of the negative publicity, but I have considerably more respect for them than if they'd continued to ignore it!


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## SatansLittleHelper (8 November 2019)

Brilliant news, they actually emailed me back just now with the following:

Dear Rebecca



Thank you for your e-mail.  We have now made a statement on Facebook regarding the video posted on Wednesday, by Lynn Russell, and withdrawn her Baileys sponsorship, with immediate effect.  Please accept our apologies for the delay in our response, while we followed our investigative procedure, but rest assured that we have taken your comments very seriously and hope that your confidence in our feeds and brand can now be restored.



Best Regards



Minty Knowles

Baileys Horse Feeds


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## dorsetladette (8 November 2019)

That is good news - hopefully people will vote with their feet as well and not send their youngsters to her to be started.


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## Asha (8 November 2019)

milliepops said:



			according to FB they've withdrawn sponsorship of LR.




__ https://www.facebook.com/BaileysHorseFeeds/posts/10162537076670322



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Fantastic news. I was going to boycott Baileys, glad I don't have to now as I use there youngstock balancer.


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## milliepops (8 November 2019)

JFTD-WS said:



			Which is really good news.  I mean, I still wouldn't feed their products, and I think it's self-serving in the face of the negative publicity, but I have considerably more respect for them than if they'd continued to ignore it!
		
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I'd say the nature of sponsorship is that it is self serving but at least this shows some kind of sanity in the self-servingness


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## JFTDWS (8 November 2019)

milliepops said:



			I'd say the nature of sponsorship is that it is self serving but at least this shows some kind of sanity in the self-servingness 

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Absolutely


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## FlyingCircus (8 November 2019)

Good on Baileys. They were obviously closely linked with LR and were by far her biggest sponsor. Hopefully this will make the others think twice about being involved with her along with anyone thinking about using her "services".


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## milliepops (8 November 2019)

the only Baileys stuff I feed are the treats that come in the giant (and very useful to repurpose) buckets but I'm pleased that they have openly spoken out against this.


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## FlyingCircus (8 November 2019)

Wonder if she used to get a discount on her feed bill!?


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## milliepops (8 November 2019)

I'd say that's a given


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## cobgoblin (8 November 2019)

FlyingCircus said:



			Wonder if she used to get a discount on her feed bill!?
		
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I'm sure she got her feed free!


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2019)

They should have got shot of her after the Jovian furore, but at least theyâ€™ve done the right thing now, so belated credit to them.

I imagine that LR thought she was untouchable. I hope that anyone who currently has a horse with her removes it ASAP.


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## bonny (8 November 2019)

Shows the power of social media nowadays !


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## Dyllymoo (8 November 2019)

Brilliant news.  Probably slightly to do with the fact they are at YHL this weekend and didn't want to face lots of angry people face to face, but nevertheless, at least they have done it.

Who are her other sponsors just out of interest?


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## Asha (8 November 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			Itâ€™s an Irish draught I think you could quite easily get one like that on good plain showing feeding .
I should know I three of them they take the term good doer to another level .
One is hunting two days a week on low energy haylege and that not even ad-lib .
Heâ€™s full of energy and looking very well I will see those ribs this season I am determined .
		
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I remember one year putting  large bale of haylage out in the field for them when the grass was sparse.  I had IDs in one field and WB in another. It took the IDs 2 days to polish it off, and 5 days for the WBs. The IDs looked like balloons. I watched them, the IDs literally didn't move, and stood with there heads in the bale until it had gone . The WBs took 24 hrs to actually get near it, as it was clearly a horse eating bale. Ive never made that mistake again. I find out at night and in during the day, (even across winter ) the best way to keep the girths trim, and plenty of work. Its a fine balance though, as I don't like them hungry, they can bring 'hangry' to an all new level.


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## milliepops (8 November 2019)

Dyllymoo said:



			Brilliant news.  Probably slightly to do with the fact they are at YHL this weekend and didn't want to face lots of angry people face to face, but nevertheless, at least they have done it.

Who are her other sponsors just out of interest?
		
Click to expand...

her website lists some others
https://www.topcobs.com/sponsors.html

she tags eqclusive on FB too but they don't have her listed on their website.


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## pistolpete (8 November 2019)

Awesome!


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2019)

milliepops said:



			her website lists some others
https://www.topcobs.com/sponsors.html

she tags eqclusive on FB too but they don't have her listed on their website.
		
Click to expand...

Are any of the other sponsors going to be at YHL?


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## Goldenstar (8 November 2019)

Asha said:



			I remember one year putting  large bale of haylage out in the field for them when the grass was sparse.  I had IDs in one field and WB in another. It took the IDs 2 days to polish it off, and 5 days for the WBs. The IDs looked like balloons. I watched them, the IDs literally didn't move, and stood with there heads in the bale until it had gone . The WBs took 24 hrs to actually get near it, as it was clearly a horse eating bale. Ive never made that mistake again. I find out at night and in during the day, (even across winter ) the best way to keep the girths trim, and plenty of work. Its a fine balance though, as I don't like them hungry, they can bring 'hangry' to an all new level.
		
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They do get hangry.
I tried to keep Fatty out last winter with a warm blood with a bale of hay .
They where shut away from it during the day .
fatty would just stand and eat down until his head disappeared into the bale completely he had no rug itâ€™s a cold field he just got bigger and bigger .


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## AandK (8 November 2019)

Really sad, but also sadly not surprised to read about this and see that there are still people about who think tying a horses head down is going to do them any good at all.
I actually got my mare (who I sadly lost on Tues aged 29) from Lynn Russell but that was almost 23yrs ago and I was very novice and naive back then. Iâ€™m glad Baileys have withdrawn their sponsorship.


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## Dyllymoo (8 November 2019)

milliepops said:



			her website lists some others
https://www.topcobs.com/sponsors.html

she tags eqclusive on FB too but they don't have her listed on their website.
		
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Fab, I've sent an email to them all and hopefully they will follow suit.


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## Asha (8 November 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			They do get hangry.
I tried to keep Fatty out last winter with a warm blood with a bale of hay .
They where shut away from it during the day .
fatty would just stand and eat down until his head disappeared into the bale completely he had no rug itâ€™s a cold field he just got bigger and bigger .
		
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That's just like my old girl Asha. Shes out rugless with the foals and a 2yo now and they are keeping her active which is helping. But retired IDs are the hardest to keep weight off.  I feel your pain !


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## Dyllymoo (8 November 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Are any of the other sponsors going to be at YHL?

View attachment 38359

Click to expand...

 This has made me giggle.... 

I've emailed them all so we shall see.  Snuggy Hoods are and that's it.


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## be positive (8 November 2019)

Baileys have sponsored her for years, possibly from when she first started as a full time producer, to stop now is a really proving the power and influence of social media, it will be a shock for her even if it doesn't hit her directly in the pocket it will be noticed by any potential or current clients and may prove tricky for her to answer why they pulled out.


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## Dyllymoo (8 November 2019)

Horsequest have responded:

_Dear xxx

Thank you for your recent email.

This has only just been brought to our attention via social media, so we have passed the details onto the sponsorship department to review in full.

Thank you once again for taking the time to contact us, it's greatly appreciated._

At least they have responded and are looking in to it


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## FlyingCircus (8 November 2019)

This is an interesting read....
https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/features/showing-producer-lynn-russell-social-media-645185


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## bonny (8 November 2019)

FlyingCircus said:



			This is an interesting read....
https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/features/showing-producer-lynn-russell-social-media-645185

Click to expand...

You would think she would have known better than using the video she did ?


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## SlinkyMinxy (8 November 2019)

Utterly depressing that there are STILL people defending LR! 

One of the posts on the Baileys FB page says it's OK, because the cob was wearing clean tack!!!!


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## Ddraig_wen (8 November 2019)

Baileys have withdrawn their sponsorship with immediate effect I read on a facebook status some people saying it was too harsh a reaction


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## milliepops (8 November 2019)

bonny said:



			You would think she would have known better than using the video she did ?
		
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this.  posting that video on SM and expecting to just collect likes is naive in the extreme.


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## FlyingCircus (8 November 2019)

milliepops said:



			this.  posting that video on SM and expecting to just collect likes is naive in the extreme.
		
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Suspect you start to feel invincible at a point. Especially when people made a stir about her ID and she managed to just brush it under the carpet and carry on.


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## Dyllymoo (8 November 2019)

milliepops said:



			this.  posting that video on SM and expecting to just collect likes is naive in the extreme.
		
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This is what is worrying and what I don't think people who are defending her understand.  That she thought it was fine to post makes me shudder.


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## milliepops (8 November 2019)

SlinkyMinxy said:



			Utterly depressing that there are STILL people defending LR!

One of the posts on the Baileys FB page says it's OK, because the cob was wearing clean tack!!!! 

Click to expand...

just spotted that. Extraordinary


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2019)

milliepops said:



			this.  posting that video on SM and expecting to just collect likes is naive in the extreme.
		
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To her it wouldnâ€™t have been naive, as because her routine practices are so off compared to what is correct it would just be standard procedure at her yard.


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## PapaverFollis (8 November 2019)

Asha said:



			I remember one year putting  large bale of haylage out in the field for them when the grass was sparse.  I had IDs in one field and WB in another. It took the IDs 2 days to polish it off, and 5 days for the WBs. The IDs looked like balloons. I watched them, the IDs literally didn't move, and stood with there heads in the bale until it had gone . The WBs took 24 hrs to actually get near it, as it was clearly a horse eating bale. Ive never made that mistake again. I find out at night and in during the day, (even across winter ) the best way to keep the girths trim, and plenty of work. Its a fine balance though, as I don't like them hungry, they can bring 'hangry' to an all new level.
		
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Oh my goodness, that just made me die laughing.   I don't have any official recorded breeding for The Beast but having read that I'm now 99% sure she's 100% ID! ðŸ˜‚  Previous yard owner said he's never had a horse on the yard that would eat so much, so quickly.  Oh and the HANGRY issues! ðŸ˜‚ 

And a "well done" for Baileys.


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## TPO (8 November 2019)

This is going to be a really rubbish analogy because I can't remember the name of the film but bear with me...

So there is a famous film about a political candidate running for President; his slogan is "Change". He gets into office and turns to say "now what?"

First of all let me make it explicitly clear that I do not agree with the methods shown in the video clip nor do I agree with the cruel practices that some horses trainers/owners use.

The saddest part, excluding the impact on equine welfare, is that someone 1) tied the horse down like that 2) filmed it 3) posted it on SM and 4) thought that it was ok. Given by the number of supportive comments and excusing of that "method"/equipment used they are not alone in their way of thinking and "training". 

Bailey's have ended the sponsorship of LR; regardless of their reasons why that is to be commended. In this age of SM no one holds a thought for long and if Baileys had sat tight I'm sure that this would have blown over within a week. 

Let's say that the remaining sponsors also cease their contracts with LR, owners take their horse's away from LR and no one sends any more to her, then what? 

The campaign worked but (tedious link back to film in second sentence) what has actually changed?

Does anyone think that losing sponsors/money/owners will actually make LR rethink her whole take on horsemanship and start putting horse's first over being successful in the show ring? If I was a betting man I'd bet that in the coming week's LR's social meeting will be full of "happy" horse pictures and videos of horse's being ridden/schooled/trained without gadgets and possibly some "I love horses" type posts thrown in too. I'd imagine a yard ban on phones/pictures/videos and tighter controls of who has access to their Social Media. Those that disagree with LR's "successful" training methods will be those tree hugging fluffy bunnies that's can't ride one side of a rocking horse let alone produce champions so on and so forth...

To me the real crux is how to get to the core of it. How do you stop people seeing horses (animals) as commodities and treating them badly? I hope I'm wrong but I really don't think that this episode with have LR looking within herself for the reasons why and instead will blame the keyboard warriors for blowing something out of proportion. 

There are a lot of people, an ex-YO of mine included, who reckon that because there is worse that could happen to a horse things like this don't matter. At the previous yard there were owners who didn't see to their horses, didn't provide clean water, fed 1 section of hay for 16hrs+ of standing in, rode lame horses, had very ill fitting tack, sore horses, unfit horses doing things that they weren't physically capable of, etc etc and YOs rebuttal was always that "it's not like they are like the abused horse's in Egypt". The response by supporters of LR have been along similar lines in that these horse's receive the best of care and feed so is a short time in overtight side reins (& any other unacceptable method that is used to train animals) really that bad?

Then, being the devil's avocado, what if LR is abandoned by everyone and loses her livelihood (I personally think that this is very unlikely)? That could have a very devastating impact on an individual and I'm sure that no one would want that to happen. This immediate (cyber) world that we live has it's benefits but it also can have devastating consequences.  

I guess my point is (eventually getting there) what now? So a sponsor or two drops someone using bad practices to compete horses; what does that actually change? How do you stop people doing things like this to horses and re-educate them? 

I do think it's right that people speak up when they see something wrong happening and especially when the victim does not have a voice of their own.


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## lar (8 November 2019)

tristar said:



			i know how about a prize for the fittest looking slim horse, in any class,  a special rossette, but of of course then you would be able to see the real conformation of the horse and that would never do, would it?
		
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Leahurst did that our local show this season.


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## Clodagh (8 November 2019)

SlinkyMinxy said:



			Utterly depressing that there are STILL people defending LR!

One of the posts on the Baileys FB page says it's OK, because the cob was wearing clean tack!!!! 

Click to expand...

Well of course, you wouldn't want to ruin a young horse in grubby stuff, would you!?

If nothing else, having to pay to make those wobbly lumps of lard that stagger round the ring under her is going to cost her a pretty penny.


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## Tarragon (8 November 2019)

I have been following this thread and I just wanted to say how impressed I am that the power of Social Media has been put to such good use!


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## milliepops (8 November 2019)

TPO said:



			I guess my point is (eventually getting there) what now? So a sponsor or two drops someone using bad practices to compete horses; what does that actually change? How do you stop people doing things like this to horses and re-educate them?

I do think it's right that people speak up when they see something wrong happening and especially when the victim does not have a voice of their own.
		
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 agree wholeheartedly with your post TPO and while we can all say the judges should stop placing the fat horses, policing what goes on, training-wise behind closed doors will always be impossible, and I am not sure how you effect positive change there.  it's a bit like how dressage stewards are supposed to call out people rollkurring in the warm up, but no one can do the same at their home yards.


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## Goldenstar (8 November 2019)

Simple answer you canâ€™t .


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## Dyllymoo (8 November 2019)

TPO said:



			This is going to be a really rubbish analogy because I can't remember the name of the film but bear with me...

So there is a famous film about a political candidate running for President; his slogan is "Change". He gets into office and turns to say "now what?"

First of all let me make it explicitly clear that I do not agree with the methods shown in the video clip nor do I agree with the cruel practices that some horses trainers/owners use.

The saddest part, excluding the impact on equine welfare, is that someone 1) tied the horse down like that 2) filmed it 3) posted it on SM and 4) thought that it was ok. Given by the number of supportive comments and excusing of that "method"/equipment used they are not alone in their way of thinking and "training".

Bailey's have ended the sponsorship of LR; regardless of their reasons why that is to be commended. In this age of SM no one holds a thought for long and if Baileys had sat tight I'm sure that this would have blown over within a week.

Let's say that the remaining sponsors also cease their contracts with LR, owners take their horse's away from LR and no one sends any more to her, then what?

The campaign worked but (tedious link back to film in second sentence) what has actually changed?

Does anyone think that losing sponsors/money/owners will actually make LR rethink her whole take on horsemanship and start putting horse's first over being successful in the show ring? If I was a betting man I'd bet that in the coming week's LR's social meeting will be full of "happy" horse pictures and videos of horse's being ridden/schooled/trained without gadgets and possibly some "I love horses" type posts thrown in too. I'd imagine a yard ban on phones/pictures/videos and tighter controls of who has access to their Social Media. Those that disagree with LR's "successful" training methods will be those tree hugging fluffy bunnies that's can't ride one side of a rocking horse let alone produce champions so on and so forth...

To me the real crux is how to get to the core of it. How do you stop people seeing horses (animals) as commodities and treating them badly? I hope I'm wrong but I really don't think that this episode with have LR looking within herself for the reasons why and instead will blame the keyboard warriors for blowing something out of proportion.

There are a lot of people, an ex-YO of mine included, who reckon that because there is worse that could happen to a horse things like this don't matter. At the previous yard there were owners who didn't see to their horses, didn't provide clean water, fed 1 section of hay for 16hrs+ of standing in, rode lame horses, had very ill fitting tack, sore horses, unfit horses doing things that they weren't physically capable of, etc etc and YOs rebuttal was always that "it's not like they are like the abused horse's in Egypt". The response by supporters of LR have been along similar lines in that these horse's receive the best of care and feed so is a short time in overtight side reins (& any other unacceptable method that is used to train animals) really that bad?

Then, being the devil's avocado, what if LR is abandoned by everyone and loses her livelihood (I personally think that this is very unlikely)? That could have a very devastating impact on an individual and I'm sure that no one would want that to happen. This immediate (cyber) world that we live has it's benefits but it also can have devastating consequences. 

I guess my point is (eventually getting there) what now? So a sponsor or two drops someone using bad practices to compete horses; what does that actually change? How do you stop people doing things like this to horses and re-educate them?

I do think it's right that people speak up when they see something wrong happening and especially when the victim does not have a voice of their own.
		
Click to expand...

I understand your point, but I think it has to start somewhere.  If it gets a few of the people who initially stuck up for her, or who still are or maybe have done in the past to rethink their own ways of doing things surely that's a good thing.  Or maybe new owners or youngsters who are looking for people to look up to.

Its never going to completely wipe anything like this out (unfortunately) but its more about education.  That that ISNT the right way to treat a horse and that it doesn't matte if you have sponsors or not, it shouldn't be the way you do things.


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## FlyingCircus (8 November 2019)

Understand your point TPO, but I think any change is good change. 24,000 people follow the Baileys facebook page. Those people may see the post (which is quite active at current) and not send their horses to her to suffer the same.


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## Follysmum (8 November 2019)

Snuggy hoods always have pics of her and her horses so another sponsor


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2019)

Going back to fat horses in showing.



ester said:



			There is already a points system for most if not all showing judging, would be an easy one to add.
		
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It should be straightforward to add a â€˜condition scoreâ€™ assessment to the existing scoring system. Perhaps full marks for a condition score between x and y, deductions for minor deviations from x and y, but horses with major deviations to be sent out of the ring. A vet could be the independent arbiter on the day at affiliated classes and qualifiers.



There isnâ€™t a pic of an â€˜extremely fatâ€™ horse at score 9, but Jovian as he was at HOYS 2017 would IMHO have scored greater than an 8.


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## Goldenstar (8 November 2019)

Whatâ€™s needed imv in showing ( and I freely admit itâ€™s not my thing too old school , too old fashioned horse world who you know counts and I freely admit I donâ€™t see the appeal ) is a root and branch reform of the judging to make truly properly muscled and developed horses win we donâ€™t need the horses who look ready to go round Badminton but I think for example, a hunter should like a hunter looks in September when itâ€™s ready to start itâ€™s seasons work .
It would be relatively easy as itâ€™s already been pointed out to tweak the way the points get awarded to reward the right sort of condition in the horses .
It would however benefit older horses who have had more time to develop muscle bulk through work not sure if thatâ€™s an issue I donâ€™t know enough about it .


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## Goldenstar (8 November 2019)

All judges perhaps should do the body scoring course .
I did one based on the chart above which I think is easier than the 1 to 5 chart thatâ€™s sometimes used .
When I did my course it was emphasised that you need to consider whatâ€™s muscle bulk and whatâ€™s fat .
A horse carrying very little fat can be no concern if thereâ€™s appropriate reasons ,the example used was a horse photographed the day after it won the gold cup , at the other extremely fully trained dressage horses can be a very round shape and have not a lot of fat which is more what showing judges would need to assess 
They would need to allow for age not sure how this could be done in context of a showing competition.


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## dorsetladette (8 November 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Going back to fat horses in showing.



It should be straightforward to add a â€˜condition scoreâ€™ assessment to the existing scoring system. Perhaps full marks for a condition score between x and y, deductions for minor deviations from x and y, but horses with major deviations to be sent out of the ring. A vet could be the independent arbiter on the day at affiliated classes and qualifiers.

View attachment 38361

There isnâ€™t a pic of an â€˜extremely fatâ€™ horse at score 9, but Jovian as he was at HOYS 2017 would IMHO have scored greater than an 8.
		
Click to expand...


He was definitely a lot fatter than 8!

You could make these breed specific and have the societies (with independent experienced vet) publish and implement them.


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## Chippers1 (8 November 2019)

I took mine to two local shows in April this year, after I had upped our fitness work (and also bearing in mind coming out of winter time) and got told at both shows he was too thin. He was a BCS 4 but always runs light right at the end of his ribs, almost like his rib cage it too wide (it's hard to describe!) but he's the same most of the year round in that area, he looked fine everywhere else and was very fit. These were two WH classes at two different shows, two different judges. He just wasn't a fat pudding and could easily do a days hunting, unlike the other competitors! I really took it to heart at the time but I know now that he was better off as he lives out and over summer didn't get too fat or laminitis, after having a very laminitic pony before him i'm always really careful with weight.
I'm glad bailey's withdrew their sponsorship, obesity in the horse world is so often overlooked and it shouldn't be, it's worse for horses than other animals as they have to carry a person too!


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## Rowreach (8 November 2019)

Reading through the comments on the Baileys page, it is interesting to see who is supporting her - one can assume they adopt the same sort of methods on their own yards.

And as for the photo of another professional that someone has seen fit to post on there, I can't comment specifically about that rider, but one fraction of a second caught in a still image is not the same imo as a piece of video ...


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## milliepops (8 November 2019)

Indeed, Rowreach. And even if it WAS proof of a similar practice (which I absolutely do not believe it to be so) that is still not a defense of what LR posted! 2 wrongs don't make a right, & all that.


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## ecb89 (8 November 2019)

Considering the amount of feed she must shovel into her horses her feed bill now going to be massive. No other feed company will want to touch her


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## milliepops (8 November 2019)

ecb89 said:



			Considering the amount of feed she must shovel into her horses her feed bill now going to be massive. No other feed company will want to touch her
		
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someone earlier remarked that memories are short these days. I do think this will blow over and then someone else will step into the gap. she's a successful competitor and that is gold dust for some companies.


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## Elf On A Shelf (8 November 2019)

One thing that will come out of this is that everyone is now going to be super obsessive about what is being put on their social media pages. 

I know I am careful with the content I put on the yards page but thats more because the world doesnt need to know a horse has died at home or got a serious injury. 95% of what we do is quite happily put out there in the big wide world! 

I am so glad Baileys have finally seen sense and ditched her!


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## The Fuzzy Furry (8 November 2019)

I wonder if the drop of the sponsorship will be covered by H&H, after all, it IS equine news......


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## Rowreach (8 November 2019)

One of the comments:

"it's just a cob in a roller with his head tied down with side reins/bungee"


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## milliepops (8 November 2019)

EKW said:



			One thing that will come out of this is that everyone is now going to be super obsessive about what is being put on their social media pages.
		
Click to expand...

but that's just the thing!  the H&H article linked earlier has the following quote from LR:




			I think p*eople who show professionally or judge, or have anything to do with the horse world, should be very careful with social media*.
		
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that's what's so baffling, to those of us non- showing pros, who find this method of "training" to be pretty unpleasant.  If she knows she should be careful, why post that.  You would have thought she would have known at least SOME people would take issue with it.


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## Rowreach (8 November 2019)

milliepops said:



			but that's just the thing!  the H&H article linked earlier has the following quote from LR:



that's what's so baffling, to those of us non- showing pros, who find this method of "training" to be pretty unpleasant.  If she knows she should be careful, why post that.  You would have thought she would have known at least SOME people would take issue with it.
		
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I bet it wasn't her who posted the video.  I wonder if there is a groom's vacancy on her yard today ...


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2019)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			I wonder if the drop of the sponsorship will be covered by H&H, after all, it IS equine news......
		
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Well, H&H hasnâ€™t yet commented on the two recent animal cruelty guilty verdicts passed on the Kimblewick Hunt employees who were filmed poking a fox out of an artificial earth as hounds approached, so best not hold our breath...


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## Elf On A Shelf (8 November 2019)

Rowreach said:



			I bet it wasn't her who posted the video.  I wonder if there is a groom's vacancy on her yard today ...
		
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This. She probably doesn't do the majority of the social media on her account. She will have a member of staff on the admin team on her fb page that does most of it. Probably her newest young recruit that she has brain washed and now more than likely sacked!


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## milliepops (8 November 2019)

well that again points back to what she apparently told H&H about needing to be careful with social media.
If you want to use questionable practices behind closed doors, and not have that info get out, then you need to control the output yourself


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## Silver Clouds (8 November 2019)

Like others I am amazed that some people (on the wider internet) find tying down and intentional obesity acceptable.

I was speaking to a couple of vets at Windsor horse show this year whilst we watched some of the showing classes. I expressed my amazement that horses/ponies could be made that fat without getting laminitis and the vets said that the ones you see in the ring are only those who have somehow managed to so far escape it, and that there is a large amount of industry 'wastage' in terms of animals that get horrendous cases of laminitis before they reach ideal show 'condition' (a ridiculous use of the term as they actually mean obesity). They were also aware of some producers giving footy horses bute to hide clinical signs of laminitis. Both of the vets (an older man and a younger woman) said that the show yards in their areas worked their way through vets quite quickly as they don't like to be told the welfare implications resulting from their feeding and training 'methods'.


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## Gloi (8 November 2019)

Cloball said:



			I'm on a welsh cob page and its very  disheartening to see people complain when the vet has said their horse is obese and people pile on saying it can't be fat look at this show horse etc. and welsh cob are supposed to look like that. Amateur and impressionable people use horses in the ring as examples.
		
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The Fell pony page is similar


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## Leo Walker (8 November 2019)

Theres some awful posts from young, as in late teens/early 20s, up and coming show riders that I have seen, that condone this behaviour. According to one, if you haven't won at HOYs how very dare you criticise as you have no idea what you are talking about. She goes on to say that this is online bullying of LR...


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## Rowreach (8 November 2019)

Leo Walker said:



			Theres some awful posts from young, as in late teens/early 20s, up and coming show riders that I have seen, that condone this behaviour. According to one, if you haven't won at HOYs how very dare you criticise as you have no idea what you are talking about. She goes on to say that this is online bullying of LR...
		
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Yes, and the degrees of abuse comment - people who have seen worse abuse therefore what LR is doing isn't so bad by comparison


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## cobgoblin (8 November 2019)

Someone on the Bailey's Facebook page has asked Bailey's to contact them for some 'real abuse of horses that they sponsor'.


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## rascal (8 November 2019)

That photo and video were disgusting, Baileys did well to end their association with her,
We used to show our Appaloosa cross, but was often told he was not carrying enough condition for showing classes. I blame the judges who place these horses.


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2019)

Iâ€™ve just ventured over to the Baileys FB page and read some of the comments. I agree, many are sad and depressing.


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## Follysmum (8 November 2019)

EKW said:



			One thing that will come out of this is that everyone is now going to be super obsessive about what is being put on their social media pages.

I know I am careful with the content I put on the yards page but thats more because the world doesnt need to know a horse has died at home or got a serious injury. 95% of what we do is quite happily put out there in the big wide world!

I am so glad Baileys have finally seen sense and ditched her!
		
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This ! Social media can be a useful tool for a business but sometimes when you put something out there itâ€™s out  there for everyone to see Permanently


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2019)

Certain posts have been removed from this thread under clause 4.4 (potentially defamatory).


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## The Fuzzy Furry (8 November 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Certain posts have been removed from this thread under clause 4.4 (potentially defamatory).
		
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Really?


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2019)

Photos, and another one but Iâ€™m not sure which one as itâ€™s vanished . Ah yes, worked it out.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (8 November 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Photos, and another one but Iâ€™m not sure which one as itâ€™s vanished . Ah yes, worked it out.
		
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I cant remember now what Laafet posted ðŸ¤”


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## ester (8 November 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Iâ€™ve just ventured over to the Baileys FB page and read some of the comments. I agree, many are sad and depressing.

View attachment 38363

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Ah yes, we needed a bit of whataboutery, so long as there are others using worse it is fine as long as you are important.


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## MotherOfChickens (8 November 2019)

Gloi said:



			The Fell pony page is similar
		
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aint it just.


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## Goldenstar (8 November 2019)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			I wonder if the drop of the sponsorship will be covered by H&H, after all, it IS equine news......
		
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I doubt it all pages of Baileys ads .


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2019)

TGM said:



			Baileys are actually at Your Horse Live this weekend so if any HHO members are there they might like to put their point of view across to those on the Bailey's stand ...
		
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The timing of the video being posted on LRâ€™s FB page and the start of YHL was a fortunate coincidence, which may have moved matters on rather more swiftly that they may otherwise have done.


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## milliepops (8 November 2019)

well it's made H&H news...
https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/lynn-russell-loses-major-sponsor-baileys-horse-feeds


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## HLOEquestrian (8 November 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Photos, and another one but Iâ€™m not sure which one as itâ€™s vanished . Ah yes, worked it out.
		
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Yes mine was removed!


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## FlyingCircus (8 November 2019)

Is it winding everyone else up that people don't seem to know the difference between side reins and an elasticated bunge?

Also, from the video the horse certainly doesn't have a lot of room to move his head, even if it is elasticated. The purpose of elastic is to encourage the horse not to lift its head way above vertical (by providing resistance), not to keep the horse behind vertical.


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## Goldenstar (8 November 2019)

It is bungee but it not good use of a bungee .


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## tallyho! (8 November 2019)

Good. Deserved. No one should get away with ant form of abuse of anything. Pure and Simple.


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## FlyingCircus (8 November 2019)

Goldenstar said:



			It is bungee but it not good use of a bungee .
		
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So many people on FB using bungee and side reins interchangeably. Pet peeve ðŸ˜‚

It is a shame Lynn has recieved death threats. I suspect she will be feeling victimised now, rather than wondering if what she did was actually wrong. Which might have happened, but maybe that is wishful thinking


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## Goldenstar (8 November 2019)

Death threats are completely unacceptable , whatâ€™s wrong with people .


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## milliepops (8 November 2019)

I doubt she would have considered whether it was right or not either way tbh.

FWIW I don't think it matters whether it's a bungee or side reins when it's that tight and the stills weren't clear enough to really tell anyway.


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## JFTDWS (8 November 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Certain posts have been removed from this thread under clause 4.4 (potentially defamatory).
		
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Apparently one of mine was, but I can't work out what.  I was fairly careful!


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## hihosilver (8 November 2019)

Unfortunately this is a common practice in showing yards. I worked for the keens in Iver lasted 2 days as horses were tied down in draw reins for over an hour- I was a working pupil and was so upset by it I quit and I really needed the job!


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## Rowreach (8 November 2019)

We must not forget that Baileys carried on sponsoring LR after the Jovian outcry. Presumably the difference is that the condition of Jovian was inextricably linked to the feed they supplied whereas the use of an "elasticated training aid" (as described in H&H need report)  is not.


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## cundlegreen (8 November 2019)

hihosilver said:



			Unfortunately this is a common practice in showing yards. I worked for the keens in Iver lasted 2 days as horses were tied down in draw reins for over an hour- I was a working pupil and was so upset by it I quit and I really needed the job!
		
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I can beat that. Watched him and their groom take turns riding a hack in a double with draw reins for hours at NEC a lot of years ago. It went on the win the hacks. It must have been knackered.


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## AdorableAlice (8 November 2019)

What have I done ?  I am always polite.

Your post in the thread Another reason to boycott Baileys... was deleted. Reason: Content removed under clause 4.4 (potentially defamatory). No sanction applied.


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## Goldenstar (8 November 2019)

AdorableAlice said:



			What have I done ?  I am always polite.

Your post in the thread Another reason to boycott Baileys... was deleted. Reason: Content removed under clause 4.4 (potentially defamatory). No sanction applied.
		
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You are always polite .
Itâ€™s very curious


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2019)

Is the commonality of the deleted posts the mention of show class judging?


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## {97702} (8 November 2019)

AdorableAlice said:



			What have I done ?  I am always polite.

Your post in the thread Another reason to boycott Baileys... was deleted. Reason: Content removed under clause 4.4 (potentially defamatory). No sanction applied.
		
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it means you havenâ€™t actually done anything or breached any rule.... but you might have done!

I received exactly the same message recently for a totally unrelated (un)offence, when others who clearly contravened the rule were allowed to keep their posts on here ðŸ™„


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## holeymoley (8 November 2019)

Me too.... I only said what the groom had posted on fb... Ach well.


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## Red-1 (8 November 2019)

Was it the photos of Jovian that were removed? Was it copyright? I know they are hot on copyright, but at least one of the photos was grainy like it was taken an a mobile phone, so presumably would not have been copyright like a pro photo? The other photo did look like a pro one though.


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2019)

I posted the two photos of Jovian at HOYS 2017 . That post was pulled, but whether that was to do with the photos or the comments I made on it, I do not know. I was rather disparaging of the judging.

I got the standard â€˜Content removed under clause 4.4 (potentially defamatory). No sanction applied.â€™ message that others have received.


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## Red-1 (8 November 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			I posted the two photos of Jovian at HOYS 2017 . That post was pulled, but whether that was to do with the photos or the comments I made on it, I do not know. I was rather disparaging of the judging.

I got the standard â€˜Content removed under clause 4.4 (potentially defamatory). No sanction applied.â€™ message that others have received.
		
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Oh, I didn't realise anyone had named a judge. Only because I could not name a single judge, for any showing class, and may have remembered a name if a name had been mentioned.


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2019)

No one has named any judges. I donâ€™t know who the judges were, but I wouldnâ€™t have named them even if Iâ€™d known. 

I am not a showing bod either.


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## honetpot (8 November 2019)

milliepops said:



			well it's made H&H news...
https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/lynn-russell-loses-major-sponsor-baileys-horse-feeds

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 As usual very vanilla, more about LR being upset.
 I suppose Baileys as a major advertiser can right their own copy, so they can distance themselves.


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## Cinnamontoast (8 November 2019)

milliepops said:



			well it's made H&H news...
https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/lynn-russell-loses-major-sponsor-baileys-horse-feeds

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Excellent. So the pressure of social media does actually work!


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## SatansLittleHelper (8 November 2019)

JFTD-WS said:



			Apparently one of mine was, but I can't work out what.  I was fairly careful!
		
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AdorableAlice said:



			What have I done ?  I am always polite.

Your post in the thread Another reason to boycott Baileys... was deleted. Reason: Content removed under clause 4.4 (potentially defamatory). No sanction applied.
		
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Mine was removed for the same reason. I can only assume it was comments concerning judging??


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## Mule (9 November 2019)

Meh, I'm always sceptical about people claiming they have had death threats via the internet. Anyone who is ever publicly criticised seems to get them. These people never seem to think it necessary to report them to the police either.


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## Tiddlypom (9 November 2019)

The pro photo that I posted of Jovian cantering on his lap of honour was taken from the H&H report of HOYS 2017. LR complained that the photo made Jovian look much fatter than he really was, as it caught him at an unfortunate moment in time. The grainy side on amateur pic of him at halt, taken while he was still in the ring, showed that in reality he was even fatter than the pro pic showed.

The pics can be found on the internet.

ETA I did read through many of the comments on the Baileys FB page, and saw no death threats or anything that might have caused LR to fear for her safety.


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## ester (9 November 2019)

It's interesting that discussion about it seems to have been quickly shut down on the FEI time to act page. Apparently it has been discussed at length but there are no other posts viewable to me about it other than the one posted yesterday and comments turned off before I saw it!


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## dogatemysalad (9 November 2019)

Lynn Russell has nine well known companies that sponsor her, does anyone know what their response is ? Bailey's has done the right thing, but it seems that the BSHA and these other sponsors are very quiet.


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## DabDab (9 November 2019)

Unimpressed with the selection of posts on this thread that the forum bods have decided are "_potentially _defamatory". The vast majority are comments about Jovian, all of which from my memory (which is excellent for things like that) were only clearly opinion or statements of fact from information that was already in the public domain.

Will wait to see if HHO also delete recent posts made on the subject of Bailey's not cancelling their sponsorship after the Jovian incident....


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## Goldenstar (9 November 2019)

Sadly one of them is Wahl so now I will have to ditch my favourite shampoo .


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## Goldenstar (9 November 2019)

ester said:



			It's interesting that discussion about it seems to have been quickly shut down on the FEI time to act page. Apparently it has been discussed at length but there are no other posts viewable to me about it other than the one posted yesterday and comments turned off before I saw it!
		
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I think itâ€™s just a we said as much as we need to thing thatâ€™s caused turned it off .
I like that group itâ€™s has some interesting discussions not all just screaming evil top riders that you get on some .
I read the whole thing .
Very focused on the training aid rather than the condition discussion we had but you would expect that on that group .


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## Tiddlypom (9 November 2019)

We can all have a wry smile at this post put up today on the Baileys FB page, in which they advertise a talk that they will be giving each day at YHL on how to manage good doers/overweight horses.


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## Goldenstar (9 November 2019)

Oh the irony .


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## Dynamo (10 November 2019)

This is the sort of thing that gives all of showing a bad reputation.  Fortunately, there are many, many professionals and amateurs who do things correctly and kindly, but that doesn't attract attention, so when top professionals like this do things that are completely and utterly unjustifiable in any context of horsemanship, it has a disproportionate effect on the reputation of the sport as a whole.  She ought to be thoroughly ashamed, not only for the impact on this horse and all her horses, but also for the impact on showing as a whole.


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## Velcrobum (10 November 2019)

Just looked at her Facebook page she now has a 1.6 rating and dozens of guest posts against that clip which has also been reproduced many times. She has not acknowledged losing Baileys as a sponsor as yet. I wonder how will H&H report this on paper this week??


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## holeymoley (10 November 2019)

Thereâ€™s a petition going round now...


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## Tiddlypom (10 November 2019)

Whatâ€™s the petition about?


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## Goldenstar (10 November 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Whatâ€™s the petition about?
		
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yes about what .


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## holeymoley (10 November 2019)

To boycott baileys feeds after their reaction to drop her...


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## Goldenstar (10 November 2019)

holeymoley said:



			To boycott baileys feeds after their reaction to drop her... 

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ðŸ˜¨ it takes all sorts


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## Tiddlypom (10 November 2019)

There will be many fewer LR supporters than denigrators, but I imagine that her supporters are big cheeses in the showing world...


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## FlyingCircus (10 November 2019)

Is it just me who can't find Baileys statement on their FB page anymore?


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## Tiddlypom (10 November 2019)

FlyingCircus said:



			Is it just me who can't find Baileys statement on their FB page anymore?
		
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I canâ€™t see it either.


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## FlyingCircus (10 November 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			I canâ€™t see it either.
		
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Wonder if there have been some legal repercussions.


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## cobgoblin (10 November 2019)

The statement was still there about half an hour ago.. But I can't find it now.


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## ycbm (10 November 2019)

If she thinks she's unpopular now, its absolutely nothing to how unpopular she's going to be if she tries to sue Bailey's!   It would be almost enough to make me change to their feed!!

.


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## Goldenstar (10 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			If she thinks she's unpopular now, its absolutely nothing to how unpopular she's going to be if she tries to sue Bailey's!   It would be almost enough to make me change to their feed!!

.
		
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they do make a low calorie balancer
bit like my fridge full of food to keep me in show condition and a tub of 0% fat yogurt .


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## Red-1 (10 November 2019)

I do think their decision to drop the sponsorship is correct, if nothing else from a business perspective. But, I think the wording of the announcement was rather  and a bit judge and jury.

I don't think there can be legal repercussions from saying that you will no longer sponsor someone but the wording " Bailey's Horse Feeds - Further to the release of a video on social media by Baileys-sponsored showing producer, XXXXXXX XXXXXXX, we would like to assure our customers, and the wider horse world, that we in no way condone abusive training or handling of any horse or pony. Baileys Horse Feedsâ€™ sponsorship of XXXXXX has been withdrawn, with immediate effect." is a company declaring that she was abusive, or if it is not they stop barely short of it.

I dare say it would take a court to decide if some was abusive or not. For a company to declare this was wrong, IMO. It is subjective. They are not the people who decide, legally, if someone's actions are abusive.

If they had merely said "We have decided to no longer sponsor XXXXX because they no longer fit with our brand image" then that would have been all above board IMO.


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## Red-1 (10 November 2019)

The quote is still live on the many reviews by the way.


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## Tiddlypom (10 November 2019)

Baileys will be bitterly regretting not ending their sponsorship of LR after the Jovian debacle. They could have got out then after giving her a suitable period of notice and the usual false platitudes of how grateful they were, etc. etc.


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## Velcrobum (10 November 2019)

The video has been posted on You tube so I do not think it is going to go away.

The showing fraternity may or may not back her but it will be interesting so see if any other sponsors quietly withdraw.


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## honetpot (10 November 2019)

I would imagine if its a business contract with Baileys, there will be something about bringing the company in to disrepute by association, so if she has done something wrong or not there will be a get out clause, which they can plug the plug on her immediately.


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## Red-1 (10 November 2019)

honetpot said:



			I would imagine if its a business contract with Baileys, there will be something about bringing the company in to disrepute by association, so if she has done something wrong or not there will be a get out clause, which they can plug the plug on her immediately.
		
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I agree. But maybe not use the word 'abuse' unless that is proven.


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## ycbm (10 November 2019)

Red-1 said:



			I agree. But maybe not use the word 'abuse' unless that is proven.
		
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In business terms it was very unwise wording! I think they'll be paying compensation and having to make a public apology. 

.

.


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## honetpot (10 November 2019)

If its a business dicision, I do not think they will apologise. They didn't say she abused horses. Most of the feed sales probabely come from non showing homes, I think they would lose more sales if they apologised to her, at the moment they are ahead. If it goes to court more bad publicity for her and for them.
 They could do an NDA and settlement, we do not know the terms of the contract


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## ycbm (10 November 2019)

Hmmm. Effectively, in the announcement the way it was written,  they did clearly a accuse her of abuse. 

.


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## Palindrome (11 November 2019)

The video shows clearly an abusive practice though, the horse's hindlegs are having to fold under him in order to support what is being done to the front end. The fact it is a bungee is no better than side reins, perhaps even worst as the horse has effectively his pole tied in as well.
Good for Baileys, the petition is ridiculous.


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## ycbm (12 November 2019)

Palindrome said:



			The video shows clearly an abusive practice though, the horse's hindlegs are having to fold under him in order to support what is being done to the front end. The fact it is a bungee is no better than side reins, perhaps even worst as the horse has effectively his pole tied in as well.
		
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It may be the opinion of many people,  including me, that the practice is abusive, but in a court case, with less than five seconds of video to be seen, a claim for reputational damage will, I think, be impossible to defend. The claimant will be able to produce many 'experts' who will say that is normal breaking practice, because in many places it is. They will also be unable to establish that any harm has been caused by 'a very short time' in short elastic restraints.

Baileys did the right thing, imo, but the wording of the announcement of their decision was commercially extremely naive. 

.


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## ihatework (12 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			It may be the opinion of many people,  including me, that the practice is abusive, but in a court case, with less than five seconds of video to be seen, a claim for reputational damage will, I think, be impossible to defend. The claimant will be able to produce many 'experts' who will say that is normal breaking practice, because in many places it is. They will also be unable to establish that any harm has been caused by 'a very short time' in short elastic restraints.

Baileys did the right thing, imo, but the wording of the announcement of their decision was commercially extremely naive.

.
		
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Completely agree.


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## Tiddlypom (12 November 2019)

Thereâ€™s a brief video clip on LRâ€™s FB page of the bay youngster, whose name is Fin, being long lined recently. He is much less restricted in this clip, and you can see what a fabulous natural walk he has. He is, however, very unsettled in his mouth and is chomping constantly.

Unfortunately I agree that Baileys knee jerk reaction to drop LR may cost them dearly financially if this goes to court.


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## JFTDWS (12 November 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Unfortunately I agree that Baileys knee jerk reaction to drop LR may cost them dearly financially if this goes to court.
		
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I presume you mean their choice of wording in doing so, rather than the decision to drop her in itself?


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## Palindrome (12 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			It may be the opinion of many people,  including me, that the practice is abusive, but in a court case, with less than five seconds of video to be seen, a claim for reputational damage will, I think, be impossible to defend. The claimant will be able to produce many 'experts' who will say that is normal breaking practice, because in many places it is. They will also be unable to establish that any harm has been caused by 'a very short time' in short elastic restraints.

Baileys did the right thing, imo, but the wording of the announcement of their decision was commercially extremely naive.

.
		
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I don't know, with the rollkur debate there has been vet evidence that hyperflexion is detrimental to the horse. I wouldn't say the court case would be straightforward but there is definitely room for a defense there. You don't need to prove lasting damage either, just that it is abusive.

ETA: the H&H article says 7 seconds of video and they repeat it several times. I guess this is the crux of her "defense" that it only lasted for a short time, still abuse IMO.


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## JFTDWS (12 November 2019)

And since rollkur is banned by the FEI...  I guess the question is, does tying a horse's face down with a "training aid" constitute excessive force?


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## Tiddlypom (12 November 2019)

JFTD-WS said:



			I presume you mean their choice of wording in doing so, rather than the decision to drop her in itself?
		
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Yes. Iâ€™ve posted previously that IMHO Baileys should have got out previously, before this latest upset.

You have to wonder what was going on behind the scenes for Baileys to issue the statement that they did, when they did.


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## Velcrobum (12 November 2019)

JFTD-WS said:



			And since rollkur is banned by the FEI...  I guess the question is, does tying a horse's face down with a "training aid" constitute excessive force?
		
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IMHO a resounding yes.


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## ycbm (12 November 2019)

Palindrome said:



			I don't know, with the rollkur debate there has been vet evidence that hyperflexion is detrimental to the horse. I wouldn't say the court case would be straightforward but there is definitely room for a defense there. You don't need to prove lasting damage either, just that it is abusive.
		
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If I was suing them, I would say

The horse is not in rollkÃ¼r, it does not have a rider on its back, there has been no research into to this common technique when used in breaking in a horse; vets constantly recommend a pessoa, a gadget that ties the mouth directly to the hind legs; this horse was left on elasticated reins for a very, very short time, and it would have to be post mortemed to prove damage, which clearly isn't going to happen unless it dies of something else meanwhile. 

It's clear from the petition that theres no consensus that this is abusive. It's common amongst breaking yards to do this to 'mouth' a horse.  I've seen a trainer of top British dressage riders (can supply name by PM)  do it to the young horse of a friend of mine on the lunge. 

While hyperflexion is banned in competition, one of the horses most photographed in it, Parzival, was also one of the longest lasting GP horses. I saw him compete at nineteen. So there is no clear cut case there either. 

I think it's great that she lost her sponsorship, but for a company of that size I'm banging my head on the desk that they gave it to the office junior to write the post and not the legal department. Commercially, I think they're up shit creek without a paddle for reputational damage. 

.


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## onemoretime (12 November 2019)

This doesn't surprise me in the least.  A lot of show producers think nothing of leaving a horse tied in pillar reins all night.  They reckon it clears their mind!!!


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## tristar (12 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			If I was suing them, I would say

The horse is not in rollkÃ¼r, it does not have a rider on its back, there has been no research into to this common technique when used in breaking in a horse; vets constantly recommend a pessoa, a gadget that ties the mouth directly to the hind legs; this horse was left on elasticated reins for a very, very short time, and it would have to be post mortemed to prove damage, which clearly isn't going to happen unless it dies of something else meanwhile. 

It's clear from the petition that theres no consensus that this is abusive. It's common amongst breaking yards to do this to 'mouth' a horse.  I've seen a trainer of top British dressage riders (can supply name by PM)  do it to the young horse of a friend of mine on the lunge. 

While hyperflexion is banned in competition, one of the horses most photographed in it, Parzival, was also one of the longest lasting GP horses. I saw him compete at nineteen. So there is no clear cut case there either. 

I think it's great that she lost her sponsorship, but for a company of that size I'm banging my head on the desk that they gave it to the office junior to write the post and not the legal department. Commercially, I think they're up shit creek without a paddle for reputational damage. 

.
		
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the basis of a case for abuse would be that when a horse walks it moves in four time, and therefore moves its head, or needs to move its head, even when ridden, the riders hands need to follow the movement, this is clearly wrong what is being done to this horse, also for a horse to carry its head in an advanced position takes a long time of schooling 

and doing this  to a horse could result in the horse going over backwards  or falling on its side.

im sure baileys are aware of these facts


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## TPO (12 November 2019)

Ignore me, I missed about 5 previous posts saying exactly what I asked!


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## JFTDWS (12 November 2019)

Tiddlypom said:



			Yes. Iâ€™ve posted previously that IMHO Baileys should have got out previously, before this latest upset.

You have to wonder what was going on behind the scenes for Baileys to issue the statement that they did, when they did.
		
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Yes, that was my understanding of your previous posts - I was wondering you meant that their dropping her suddenly might have been a breach of a contract or similar in addition to the wording issue.  I wondered if there was something I was missing!


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## Pearlsasinger (12 November 2019)

ycbm said:



			It may be the opinion of many people,  including me, that the practice is abusive, but in a court case, with less than five seconds of video to be seen, a claim for reputational damage will, I think, be impossible to defend. The claimant will be able to produce many 'experts' who will say that is normal breaking practice, because in many places it is. They will also be unable to establish that any harm has been caused by 'a very short time' in short elastic restraints.

Baileys did the right thing, imo, but the wording of the announcement of their decision was commercially extremely naive.

.
		
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I cannot imagine that Bailey's Press Office did not run the statement past their legal team as a matter of course, before releasing it.


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## Lois Lame (12 November 2019)

If a court case involved a jury, I wonder what the outcome would be. A lot of non-horsey folk see right through the rubbish that us horsey people think is okay.


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## ycbm (12 November 2019)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I cannot imagine that Bailey's Press Office did not run the statement past their legal team as a matter of course, before releasing it.
		
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Then why was it quickly withdrawn? If it was seen by a legal team they should be fired for incompetence. Most business people with some experience would have read it as several of us on the forum have and thought 'ooh, you don't want to be saying that in writing!'. 

.


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## honetpot (12 November 2019)

Just out of interest I had a look at the Baileys website. The LR blogg last entry is dated 24th September, no entry from HOYS, and no mention of her in the rider profiles.
 As I thought its still a family owned company,so perhaps that lead to the quick decision.  I have probabely used Baileys feeds on and off since 1982, when they sold bread meal and barley rings, which were really posh then.


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## Cloball (13 November 2019)

Does anyone else think its a bit odd timing for HHO to produce an article full of show cobs some of which are rather on the... Large side... *Dons tin hat*. 

Apologies if it's part of a series I live under a rock mostly.


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## windand rain (13 November 2019)

Well She will likely get a lot of support look at what happened with the show judge and breeder in the pony world and that ended in a jail sentence and life ban. People are still supporting that person


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