# Frustrated! Young problematic horse.



## Illusion100 (17 February 2014)

Bought as a weanling, gelded at year and a half and now 3 yrs old.

He had an OCD lesion removed at 8 months old and prospects for athletic career good/excellent.

Before going to vet practice you could do anything with him, very sweet and willing to do anything with patience and understanding. The only aspect was that he could get a little fearful now and then, but a simple 5 seconds to realise no-on else was panicking, he was the willing to give it a go.

36 hours at vet practice later....returned a hat rack, extremely angry and fearful.

Long story short, from that point he became neurotic (rearing/bolting/boxwalking/frantically pacing field) pretty much all of the time. Sent him to Pro trainer (when he was approx. 2 and a half), that couldn't do anything with him for a week, again he turned to skin and bone. 2 weeks later picked him up and brought him home after he had some desensitising etc. Heaps better but requires bit and chain for ground handling for many months. Even let him think about taking an inch and game over.

Planning to have him backed in Summer. Plan being let him winter out, he's now in (being neurotic again) to do the prep work for backing.

Have tried conventional calmers....useless. Am going try camomile tea with some Alpha A as he doesn't get hard feed and also try a stable mirror. As per Trainers advice he has to remain full time in box until he settles (could take a week plus) then groundwork with bit and chain daily until settled before allowed daily turnout again. This is not going to be fun at all.

He is extremely intelligent but very sensitive. 

Has anyone got any experience of something similar and how did you stay sane.


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## showpony (18 February 2014)

No experience with  a similar youngster but how will keeping him confined in a box help? Why not just turnout for couple of mths and start again?


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## Arizahn (18 February 2014)

showpony said:



			No experience with  a similar youngster but how will keeping him confined in a box help? Why not just turnout for couple of mths and start again?
		
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Given how young he is, I would be inclined to agree. Maybe he just needs time to settle?


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## maccachic (18 February 2014)

Parelli, Buck, Mclean etc techniques may help re establish trust etc.


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## Illusion100 (18 February 2014)

showpony said:



			No experience with  a similar youngster but how will keeping him confined in a box help? Why not just turnout for couple of mths and start again?
		
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Reason behind this is for him to learn to manage his stress. If he is removed from his box while he is in a stressed state of mind it re-inforces stress as a positive. When he is stressed he is extremely difficult.

The trainer came highly recommended from Ian & Heidi Woodhead who send their problem horses to this yard. I trust the advice I'm given but dealing with such a horse is very trying.


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## Mince Pie (18 February 2014)

Personally I'd be giving him a weeks gastroguard as a start as that's a lot of stress for him (vets, op etc).


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## showpony (18 February 2014)

If he is 3 by 2014 calculations.  Just turn him away.


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## Illusion100 (18 February 2014)

Broke_But_Happy said:



			Personally I'd be giving him a weeks gastroguard as a start as that's a lot of stress for him (vets, op etc).
		
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Going to try Camomile for a combination of it's affects on anxiety/stress and GI tract benefits. He is eating and drinking normally but box-walking and reactive to any 'goings on' at yard. He does have a horse that he is fond of next door to him (coincidently on box-rest fortunately!). Also ordered a stable mirror to see if that alleviates his stress. 


Vet op was over 2 years ago but he has never recovered from the ordeal (roughly handled).


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## Illusion100 (18 February 2014)

showpony said:



			If he is 3 by 2014 calculations.  Just turn him away.
		
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4 this Summer.


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## katpower (18 February 2014)

I'm also voting for chucking him out for a while. Put him in a herd and let him just be a horse for a few months. He's young, he's traumatised - he needs to relax, unwind and psychologically detox.
A herd environment did wonders for my rescue - he's a different horse now.


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## maccachic (18 February 2014)

Get him out of the box if hes box walking hes not happy.  Is he getting plenty of salt makes a big difference (start with 10g / 100kg)


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## Illusion100 (18 February 2014)

maccachic said:



			Get him out of the box if hes box walking hes not happy.  Is he getting plenty of salt makes a big difference (start with 10g / 100kg)
		
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Then he frantically paces the field.

Salt added to water as given no hard feed.


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## Illusion100 (18 February 2014)

katpower said:



			I'm also voting for chucking him out for a while. Put him in a herd and let him just be a horse for a few months. He's young, he's traumatised - he needs to relax, unwind and psychologically detox.
A herd environment did wonders for my rescue - he's a different horse now.
		
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From 5 months old to 2.5 yrs old he had a herd environment. Op done at 8 months. 36 hrs at vets, 2 weeks pen rest then back out. At 2yrs 7 months old, due to unforeseen factors at previous farm he was moved to livery yard. He has since been out full time until last July when he had 3 weeks at Pro Trainers yard as he would not settle in field, since then full time turn out until last w'end.

Foaled indoors but out with herd asap until weaned at 5 months.


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## maccachic (18 February 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Then he frantically paces the field.

Salt added to water as given no hard feed.
		
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I'm assuming fresh water is also available?

Loads of ground work in a round yard, small paddock to develop some confidence. The ones I described above have some tools / techniques which will help and loads of praise when he gets even simple things right (leading quietly for example), try and ignore the bad stuff and focus on the reward.  

Right back to basic and don't worry about backing until he is happy, my greenie is 7 and only just backed so you have heaps of time.


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## Illusion100 (18 February 2014)

maccachic said:



			I'm assuming fresh water is also available?

Loads of ground work in a round yard, small paddock and develop some confidence the ones I describes above have some tools / techniques which will help and loads of praise when he gets even simple things right, try and ignore the bad stuff and focus on reward.  Right back to basic and don't worry about backing until he is happy.
		
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Yes, large bucket fresh, much smaller bucket salted. 

Problem is....he doesn't respond to praise...bribery doesn't work either!

The only thing that he listens to is the chain, he loves that thing.


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## katpower (18 February 2014)

Maybe go the alternative route? Acupuncture, bodywork, herbs, animal communicator?


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## Marydoll (18 February 2014)

Turn away as part of a small herd, id think boxing him might cause him to shut down, i cant think of a more awful thing to do to a stressed horse than isolating in a box


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## LadyGascoyne (18 February 2014)

I agree with the others; turn him away.

If you back him while he is this stressy, it will probably be a traumatic experience and that could have serious long-term effects. He's young, losing an extra year with him isn't the end of the world, you could potentially be setting yourself up to lose a lot more if backing is a negative experience.

For interests sake, what is his breeding?


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## Goldenstar (18 February 2014)

Broke_But_Happy said:



			Personally I'd be giving him a weeks gastroguard as a start as that's a lot of stress for him (vets, op etc).
		
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I would defiantly be thinking you are handling ulcers , and I would try a gastroguard trial ( because scoping him is not going to be worth the trouble )
Try liquid valerian 
Try magnesium oxide .
Try a mirror if he does not have one .
One friend of mine transformed a very difficult horse with a goat companion
I don't think I would turn away at four you do need to address and try to work through it .
It's a very upsetting  situation


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## TheMule (18 February 2014)

Can you pen him with another horse? My mare still wont settle in a stable on her own, but in with another horse she's fine. If he is naturally stressy then you need to avoid situations where he gets stressed rather than asking him to confront them, horses aren't rational creatures and wont just calm down. Get him calmer in the situations that he needs to be calmer in before you start pushing the boundaries again


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## Brightbay (18 February 2014)

You need to speak to a professional behaviourist.  The horse has issues stemming from the original vet visit.  Each additional thing (going away to the trainer, being confined, being handled with a chain over nose etc) has just added to these problems.  I always worry when I hear "some desensitisation" - because in many cases this tends to mean "we put him in a fearful situation until he shut down" - and this is usually followed by "and then it flared up again at an insignificant trigger some weeks/months later".

You need to speak to someone who can give you a well thought out, science based progressive plan for dealing with the obvious and escalating fear issues, and these should include management strategies as well as training.  A professional behaviourist works under vet referral, so if ulcers are an issue (which they may be) they will take this into account.

There are various behaviourists around the country - ideally you need someone who is registered with e.g. APBC.  I know of excellent people in Northern Ireland, Surrey, Wales, and Manchester, all of whom travel and all of whom will do a phone consultation in advance of coming out.  Just PM me if you would like further details or if you're somewhere outside of these areas.

It is a situation that can be resolved, but not dealing with it now means moving on in the horse's training will just encounter more and more issues.


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## cobmum (18 February 2014)

From reading this it's seems partly psychological and physical. My approach would be physical first then resolve psychological with professional help.


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## MS123 (18 February 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			I would defiantly be thinking you are handling ulcers , and I would try a gastroguard trial ( because scoping him is not going to be worth the trouble )
Try liquid valerian 
Try magnesium oxide .
Try a mirror if he does not have one .
One friend of mine transformed a very difficult horse with a goat companion
I don't think I would turn away at four you do need to address and try to work through it .
It's a very upsetting  situation
		
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I thought exactly the same RE ulcers.


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## Meowy Catkin (18 February 2014)

Ulcers also crossed my mind as a possibility.

You cannot back him while he's in this state and locking him in a box until he gives up (probably because he suffers a mental breakdown), is not an option I would ever consider. 

Have you ever got to the bottom of what happened at the Vets when he had his op?

I found the statement about him loving his chain odd. Can you explain why you think that?

I Know that you've had him turned out before. How was it arranged? Was it proper youngstock livery in a large field with lots of other horses that stay out?

You need to get him in a better mental place and only then can you consider training him. Maybe someone like Richard Maxwell would be worth considering.


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## Tobiano (18 February 2014)

Oh, poor chap.  OP are you sure he couldn't be in pain of some kind maybe stemming from the operation? If he really has been this bad ever since the vets.  I am no expert but the advice to turn away with a suitabke companion seems really sensible as he is so young and so upset.  Poor lad I hope he can recover.


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## Meowy Catkin (18 February 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Reason behind this is for him to learn to manage his stress. If he is removed from his box while he is in a stressed state of mind it re-inforces stress as a positive. When he is stressed he is extremely difficult.
		
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I wonder what equine behaviourists think of confining prey animals until they 'learn to manage their stress'?

They seem to have taken the concept of positive reinforcement and applied it to this situation completely incorrectly.

They may have had a lot of success with other horses, but they don't seem right for yours at all.

I do understand your problems to a certain extent as I own a youngster who many would call difficult. I've had to resist a lot of pressure from others who wanted me to sell, send him away or keep him in to 'institutionalise' him (which sounds fairly similar to what they are trying to do with your boy). I found the blase (please imagine the accent on the E) use of the term 'institutionalise' very telling. I, as his owner had to stay strong and stand up for him and what was right for him. It was hard, I did doubt myself but he needs a calm environment and so I didn't send him away or lock him in. Then last month he needed his vaccination and teeth checking (he's particularly difficult with the Vet) but with careful planning and patient handling we managed to get both of these things done. I honestly was amazed that we managed it and without sedation too.


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## Brightbay (18 February 2014)

I wonder what equine behaviourists think of confining prey animals until they 'learn to manage their stress'?
		
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No behaviourist would recommend this, which is why I think it would be very useful for OP to speak to a qualified behaviourist - they would be able to explain why the current management of the horse is contributing to the problem.  They will also be able to work with the vet if there are health issues.


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## SusieT (18 February 2014)

Turf him out in a herd for a year. It will do him the world of good.
If needs be bring him in for a feed daily/weekly to let him know humans are good.
Putting him in a box then handling him aggressively with force will only serve to end up with a frustrated, over energetic horse and will do more damage than good to all parties involved.


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## Pearlsasinger (18 February 2014)

I, too,  would turn this poor thing out in a stable herd bringing in to feed daily, so that he begins to understand that people mean him no harm.  I would also try a GastroGuard or similar trial.  I can't imagine why any-one would even consider backing a horse which is so difficult to handle on the ground, just a recipe for disaster, imo.
I would make sure that I told any-one who would listen to go nowhere near the vet involved and would be furious with myself that I had let this state of affairs go on for so long.  I certainly wouldn't be sending this horse anywhere else for a long time.


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## Goldenstar (18 February 2014)

Tbh I would is this was my issue to deal with .
I would let him come in at night with the other horses and turn out with them , so establish a good calm settled routine .
The other horses are out and come in only briefly then that's what I would do with him.
He needs the company of a couple of sensible adult horses to learn from.
I would just chip away at the handling in tiny steps .
I would take a book and read it in his stable ( might wait for better weather for this).
You need to get him through this before backing in considered and you will need to choose the person who does it with extreme care.
But the first thing I would do is invest in some gastroguard and I would prepared to for him to be kept on it a while at a lower dose ( one  quarter tube a day seems to work well ) if you get a good result from the full dosage .


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## Meowy Catkin (18 February 2014)

Brightbay said:



			No behaviourist would recommend this, which is why I think it would be very useful for OP to speak to a qualified behaviourist - they would be able to explain why the current management of the horse is contributing to the problem.  They will also be able to work with the vet if there are health issues.
		
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That's exactly what I wondered.


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## Illusion100 (18 February 2014)

Thanks for replies everyone.

I decided to purchase Rescue Remedy, Valerian and Camomile today to try with him, however when I arrived at yard tonight he was considerably calmer but I decided to start the herbal route tonight anyway and see if they have any significant effect in the short-term. 

A stable mirror is already on it's way, hopefully arriving tomorrow.

I have contacted numerous professionals, since, throughout and currently all his life since he returned from surgery, (vets, behaviourists, physios, dentists etc) He has been examined from head to toe and all ok physically. He is in great body condition (not fat by any standards, just nicely covered), lovely shine to coat etc. I have not been advised by any professional at any stage that his management is detrimental or should be altered. 

His issues are psychological. He becomes consumed by anything he interprets as potentially stressful. The desensitising work he had done by Pro. Trainer was extremely impressive and they came highly recommended by Professionals competing at levels us mere mortals can only dream of. 

At this stage, handling him on the ground requires a bridle, chain and schooling whip. He loves the chain, as soon as he sees it he is straight over to have it put on. It is his 'safety blanket' so to speak. Rub him all over with the whip and he rests a hindleg, goes doey eyed and has a snooze.....when he is in his 'comfort zone'. 

Take him out of his comfort zone (anything he perceives as potentially stressful) and without that chain he would be impossible. He is NOT scared of it, he respects it, but heck....keeping his mind on 'planet Earth' even with the chain can be extremely hard work.

He has spent months being led with calm 'babysitters', slow introductions, basically 'anything and everything' has been tried and tested (apart from Herbal route and stable mirror, which happening atm). Nothing worked. 

The only one who has achieved any result was the Pro. Trainer, (my choice of Trainer was carefully deliberated). The advice is for him to remain in any stressful situation until he fully accepts it, otherwise stress/anxiety is the 'go to' response, which means he never learns to cope. It is the ONLY technique that has helped him.

He is 4 this year and will be 4 (give or take a few weeks) when he is backed. I deliberately left backing until his 4th year to allow for him to mature physically re: spinal growths plates. The rider is lightweight who will back him and so am I. 

Every possible alternative route has been explored to no avail. I could 100% confirm turning him away for another year wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. 

For poster who asked his bloodlines include Demonstrator, Criminal Law, Fleetwater Opposition, Cavalier Royale.


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## Illusion100 (18 February 2014)

Also, use of the chain is not over the nose or used to tug on the bit. It is used to rattle the chain upwards in a manner that does not involve the bit. I have no desire for my youngster to develop a 'hard mouth'. 

The bit is an extra control precaution and only receives significant pressure if he rears or attempts to bolt. 

Not a fan of abuse!


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## honetpot (19 February 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Thanks for replies everyone.

I decided to purchase Rescue Remedy, Valerian and Camomile today to try with him, however when I arrived at yard tonight he was considerably calmer but I decided to start the herbal route tonight anyway and see if they have any significant effect in the short-term. 

A stable mirror is already on it's way, hopefully arriving tomorrow.

I have contacted numerous professionals, since, throughout and currently all his life since he returned from surgery, (vets, behaviourists, physios, dentists etc) He has been examined from head to toe and all ok physically. He is in great body condition (not fat by any standards, just nicely covered), lovely shine to coat etc. I have not been advised by any professional at any stage that his management is detrimental or should be altered. 

His issues are psychological. He becomes consumed by anything he interprets as potentially stressful. The desensitising work he had done by Pro. Trainer was extremely impressive and they came highly recommended by Professionals competing at levels us mere mortals can only dream of. 

At this stage, handling him on the ground requires a bridle, chain and schooling whip. He loves the chain, as soon as he sees it he is straight over to have it put on. It is his 'safety blanket' so to speak. Rub him all over with the whip and he rests a hindleg, goes doey eyed and has a snooze.....when he is in his 'comfort zone'. 

Take him out of his comfort zone (anything he perceives as potentially stressful) and without that chain he would be impossible. He is NOT scared of it, he respects it, but heck....keeping his mind on 'planet Earth' even with the chain can be extremely hard work.

He has spent months being led with calm 'babysitters', slow introductions, basically 'anything and everything' has been tried and tested (apart from Herbal route and stable mirror, which happening atm). Nothing worked. 

The only one who has achieved any result was the Pro. Trainer, (my choice of Trainer was carefully deliberated). The advice is for him to remain in any stressful situation until he fully accepts it, otherwise stress/anxiety is the 'go to' response, which means he never learns to cope. It is the ONLY technique that has helped him.

He is 4 this year and will be 4 (give or take a few weeks) when he is backed. I deliberately left backing until his 4th year to allow for him to mature physically re: spinal growths plates. The rider is lightweight who will back him and so am I. 

Every possible alternative route has been explored to no avail. I could 100% confirm turning him away for another year wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. 

For poster who asked his bloodlines include Demonstrator, Criminal Law, Fleetwater Opposition, Cavalier Royale.
		
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Sounds more like shutting down than comfort zone. I can not see how a horse can learn to accept stress being shut in on its own, studies on horses travelling have shown that horses that exhibit the least signs of stress are often very stressed with increased heart rates.
 I have a brood mare that has been traumatised, hates to be caught but will 'give up' when cornered so that she can be seen by the vet, wormed, and have her feet trimmed but you can see from her pulse she is totally freaked out. She has 'learned to accept' that she will be caught but in no way can this be viewed as a positive experience for her. 
  She is managed in a small herd situation where she knows her place and is handled as quietly and as little as possible, with a set routine. I know you want to ride this horse eventually but sometimes what we want is at odds with what the horse needs.


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## Fides (19 February 2014)

I would ignore everything this professional trainer says tbh. I may only be a mere mortal but I am not the one with a problem horse... Why ask for advice and then tell everyone they are wrong? After all you are the one with a problem horse and asking for advice...

Sorry to be blunt but I feel really sorry for your horse. Establishing a routine with a few minutes stabled several times a day, and maybe feeding in the stable, would be far more kind than 'flooding' your horse and causing him to shut down - which is what you are going to do.

You may have a calm horse at the end of it but he will be a shut down horse, doing things because he has to, rather than he wants to 

Fwiw - this mere mortal has backed 7 youngsters from start to finish and only had issues with one - solved by turning him away and bringing him back at 5. And this did work - he came back into work a different animal - willing and eager to please rather than the stress head he was at 4.

I have also backed a rescue TB who was that bad that no one could get near her. She refused to be stabled and would try to jump out initially. I introduced her slowly to the stable - feeding her outside the doorway with the door shut, in the doorway, in the stable with the door open, in the stable with the door shut, then finally increasing the time left in the stable. Never once did I consider leaving her in there stressed and if anyone had suggested it they would have gone rapidly down in my estimations...

There are ways to do things with kindness and there are ways to do things by taking a horses personality away and causing them to shut down - I know which way I would not consider 

Please rethink how you manage your poor horse x


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## lastchancer (19 February 2014)

Turn the poor thing out and handle him every day from the field, bring him in for a feed, take him a walk, lunge him, anything to entertain him rather than trying to drill him. Proper work can come when he (and you) are in a calmer frame of mind. You're blowing his mind by over complicating matters. Seriously, it could just be that he's too sharp a youngster for you. 

I had one like this as a 2yo and and nearly 20 years later he's still just as sharp and not as straight forward as most younger horses. No behaviorist, nose chain or been shut in will change him nor would I want it too.


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## Illusion100 (19 February 2014)

honetpot said:



			Sounds more like shutting down than comfort zone. I can not see how a horse can learn to accept stress being shut in on its own, studies on horses travelling have shown that horses that exhibit the least signs of stress are often very stressed with increased heart rates.
 I have a brood mare that has been traumatised, hates to be caught but will 'give up' when cornered so that she can be seen by the vet, wormed, and have her feet trimmed but you can see from her pulse she is totally freaked out. She has 'learned to accept' that she will be caught but in no way can this be viewed as a positive experience for her. 
  She is managed in a small herd situation where she knows her place and is handled as quietly and as little as possible, with a set routine. I know you want to ride this horse eventually but sometimes what we want is at odds with what the horse needs.
		
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You have the wrong perception, this is difficult as specific situations can be very difficult to convey via typing.


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## Meowy Catkin (19 February 2014)

Honetpot is correct Re the research into heart rates.


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## Fides (19 February 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			You have the wrong perception, this is difficult as specific situations can be very difficult to convey via typing.
		
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I believe they have the right perception. what the OP is doing to the horse has been proven not to work... The horse is the proof of that. The post you are calling wrong is a very valid alternative and far more likely to work than what the op is doing.

Rather than just calling someone wrong why not clarify why you feel they are wrong and offer an alternative? A post like that has no substance and no value...


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## Illusion100 (19 February 2014)

Explained back story and asked if anyone else had been in my shoes and how they managed to stay sane dealing with such a horse. Different than asking on advice on what to do. 

I hope I certainly did not, or ever meant to imply, that any advice given is not heeded.

Thank you for your credentials.


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## Fides (19 February 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Explained back story and asked if anyone else had been in my shoes and how they managed to stay sane dealing with such a horse. Different than asking on advice on what to do. 

I hope I certainly did not, or ever meant to imply, that any advice given is not heeded.

Thank you for your credentials.
		
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Yes I have and dealt with it successfully without flooding or shutting down the horse as described above


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## Illusion100 (19 February 2014)

Chain over nose has not been used (explained above). Could I ask, if this horse had suffered an injury and required 2 months box rest, what would you advise that's different from the situation he is in now?


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## Illusion100 (19 February 2014)

The technique of not removing him from his stable DID work. As I recently queried, if the horse sustained an injury of significant box rest, what response to his behaviour would apply?


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## Arizahn (19 February 2014)

lastchancer said:



			Turn the poor thing out and handle him every day from the field, bring him in for a feed, take him a walk, lunge him, anything to entertain him rather than trying to drill him. Proper work can come when he (and you) are in a calmer frame of mind. You're blowing his mind by over complicating matters. Seriously, it could just be that he's too sharp a youngster for you. 

I had one like this as a 2yo and and nearly 20 years later he's still just as sharp and not as straight forward as most younger horses. No behaviorist, nose chain or been shut in will change him nor would I want it too.
		
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I agree with this.


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## jeeve (19 February 2014)

turn out with others - get a nh trainer or ih trainer or someone similar. Ideally when you start working with him, do not box him - keep him on turn out - they dont need to be in to be started


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## maccachic (19 February 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Chain over nose has not been used (explained above). Could I ask, if this horse had suffered an injury and required 2 months box rest, what would you advise that's different from the situation he is in now?
		
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I would never box rest a horse for 2 months.  If the injury is that serious that the horse cannot move for two months I be considering PTS.  Horses are designed to move by restricting this important process you are serious impending their heath (gut, feet, mental well being for eg).


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## Illusion100 (19 February 2014)

Thank you everyone for all your suggestions, input and opinions. It is greatly appreciated. 

It is horrible to have a beautiful young horse traumatised by abusive handling by a vet practice and then, as the owner, try your utmost to do the right thing in the aftermath caused. 

Again, many comments have been informative and thank you again for taking the time to respond.


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## Meowy Catkin (19 February 2014)

It's an awful situation to be in. I really hope that things improve.


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## Illusion100 (19 February 2014)

Faracat said:



			It's an awful situation to be in. I really hope that things improve.
		
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Thank you very much. Your kind comment is so appreciated. Wish you the very best.


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## maccachic (19 February 2014)

Not sure if it is available where you are but have a look at this:  http://www.connectedriding.com it might help.
I won a competition and my gelding spent a week with Peggy and came back able to self relax himself, before he used to stress and couldn't bring himself back down.
It wasn't magic but over time he turned into a lovely chilled boy.


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## honetpot (19 February 2014)

My mare who is have been sadly traumatised, was a foster brood mare from Ireland. Her foal was euthanized and then she was sedated to travel to a stud farm to foster a very well bred TB foal. Her owner wondered if not only the loss of her natural foal but the amount of sedation she was given over a long period had affected her.
 You will never know what happened at the vets but perhaps drugs could have played apart, it would perhaps an idea  to find out what he was given. Large doses of steroids are known to cause mood changes in humans which can be extreme.


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## Brightbay (19 February 2014)

honetpot said:



			Sounds more like shutting down than comfort zone. I can not see how a horse can learn to accept stress being shut in on its own, studies on horses travelling have shown that horses that exhibit the least signs of stress are often very stressed with increased heart rates.
 I have a brood mare that has been traumatised, hates to be caught but will 'give up' when cornered so that she can be seen by the vet, wormed, and have her feet trimmed but you can see from her pulse she is totally freaked out. She has 'learned to accept' that she will be caught but in no way can this be viewed as a positive experience for her. 
  She is managed in a small herd situation where she knows her place and is handled as quietly and as little as possible, with a set routine. I know you want to ride this horse eventually but sometimes what we want is at odds with what the horse needs.
		
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Exactly 
OP has quite clearly described a horse who has learned to shut down, until they are so over threshold that they explode.  This can be dealt with, but not with a horse who is not turned out, does not have free access to calm equine company and who is handled and managed as described.


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## Goldenstar (19 February 2014)

maccachic said:



			I would never box rest a horse for 2 months.  If the injury is that serious that the horse cannot move for two months I be considering PTS.  Horses are designed to move by restricting this important process you are serious impending their heath (gut, feet, mental well being for eg).
		
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I think that's an awful view to take .
I have had horses on box rest for long periods nine months I think was the longest and the horse went on to have a completely normal life after .
It's a skill managing box rest I was lucky when young to work with people who put a high premium on these skills .
It's hard work though for the people doing the care it's takes longer per day to do a horse on box rest properly than a horse in work .


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## honetpot (19 February 2014)

Because of the weather you could say that four have mine have been on box rest, but as they are in a barn together apart from the 'young prince' who has his own section, they seem to suffer no ill effects, they have an unlimited supply of forage and companionship.
 My friends horse has been on box rest for 2-3months in a field shelter that opens on to a small yard where his companion is for most of the day, so they can eat together and have a good scratch. He has just been allowed out on the concrete yard so now his field mate is kept in a small section of paddock just in front so they share hay nets.  
 Last year I got a rescue yearling off the welsh hills and for the first 2 months he had to be in because he was in such a poor state. All my stables have half walls so you put another next door or on the yard in front so they are never alone and establish a routine. Although wild and nervous because he had never been handled he now is almost normal in his handling, but this was a different kind of fear which most unhandled animals seem to be able to overcome if handled quietly and not over stressed.
 I know its a bit off the subject but horses do not naturally live in caves, they run away from things they are scared of and stand away from it and most normal horses seek the company of others for security. I just think shutting a horse in a box on its own does not make any sense, but I would be interested in the theory of why anyone would think that if should.


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## dianchi (19 February 2014)

Jason webb was advertising looking for new "problem" horses to work with perhaps this is an option?


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## 9tails (19 February 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Explained back story and asked if anyone else had been in my shoes and how they managed to stay sane dealing with such a horse. Different than asking on advice on what to do. 

I hope I certainly did not, or ever meant to imply, that any advice given is not heeded.

Thank you for your credentials.
		
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I've read this thread, quietly agreed with most posters and despaired that every alternative is pooh-poohed.

You know why people are answering giving suggestions?  It's because what you're doing will never work on this particular horse.  In fact, I'd go as far to say that what you're doing will make the horse a lot worse and you'll eventually be unable to handle him at all.  

The reason you're not getting the answers that say "Carry on as you're doing, you're heading in the right direction.  I was in exactly the same position but I plugged on with the same thing that hadn't worked for months/years then suddenly the horse changed totally and I was left with a golden example of horse saintliness" is because it hasn't and isn't going to happen!


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## Fides (19 February 2014)

9tails - they are following the advice of a well known trainer. I actually wonder whether this is true - as no sane person would actually recommend that regime in this day and age. But OP (with her unmanageable horse) knows best...

OP have you considered selling the horse and getting another that is already backed maybe? Have you considered that if you can't manage the horse unbacked, it is only going to be worse when ridden


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## ester (19 February 2014)

poor horse, 

I am actually questioning whether it is humane to keep him when he seems so distressed.


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## Meowy Catkin (19 February 2014)

RE the box rest question. I don't believe that confining an already stressed horse in this way is the same as box resting a horse with an injury that must have it's movement restricted. When my grey injured her tendon she was in an electric fenced area in the field. This worked for her as she'd have been frantic in the stable and that wouldn't have helped her injury, but she was calm and happy in her pen, so the leg healed. Box rest doesn't have to be in a stable.

Ester - are you suggesting that he should be PTS if he continues to be so distressed all the time, or that it's inhumane to add to his stress by stabling him in that way?

OP - I really do hope that you find the key to helping your horse, I just don't think that you're on the right path at the moment.


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## zandp (19 February 2014)

I've got a young stressy mare and I've worked with Ben Hart with great success.  Positive reinforcement based training, no flooding allowed at all, owner educated about the science of behaviour and learning (equine and human).  Gave me the tools I needed to manage her successfully.

I highly recommend him.


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## ester (19 February 2014)

If he continues to be so distressed all of the time and no situation could be found in which he improved, or at least started to improve I think I would consider PTS - ie if he could go and live in a field full time in an established herd with minimal necessary contact and was better that would be fine- if whatever you do he paces fence/stable etc he is either in pain (physical/mental) or making himself ill that cannot be any life for him and I would consider PTS - that isn't from a hho put everything down perspective honest and I would be doing my darndest to help him first (living conditions or behaviouralists, training etc) and obviously it would then be a judgement call. It just seems a long time since the initial veterinary treatment for him to be in the sort of state he is currently.


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## soloequestrian (19 February 2014)

As many people have already said, the current recommended course of action is highly likely to make the situation much worse, possibly to the point of no return.  The horse already has a coping mechanism for stress - it has developed a marked pacing stereotypy.  Stressing it further will exacerbate that or may lead to a total shutdown - a condition known as 'learned helplessness'.  There seem to be lots of suggestions for trainers with a good understanding of animal behaviour, and I will add Debbie Marsden and graduates of hers to the list - http://www.debbiemarsden.co.uk/.  She is a scientist who has worked in the field of animal behaviour for many years, and so has an exceptional understanding of problems and their solutions.


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## lastchancer (19 February 2014)

soloequestrian said:



			The horse already has a coping mechanism for stress - it has developed a marked pacing stereotypy.  Stressing it further will exacerbate that or may lead to a total shutdown - a condition known as 'learned helplessness'.
		
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I suspect that is the state the OP's trainer is aiming for. Is it a Parelli trainer OP? I bet it blooming is.


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## Ibblebibble (19 February 2014)

the first thing that comes to mind is if the pro trainer is so right in their approach, why have you not made any progress with the horse? does the fact that 90% of the opinion on here is completely opposite to that of the pro trainer not make you wonder if a different approach may be more beneficial?  determinedly carrying on the route you are taking sounds like a recipe for disaster, backing a horse who is already stressed is not going to calm him down but quite likely push him over the edge! i just hope the person backing him has adequate insurance to cover them in their months off work after this poor horse has freaked out and bolted or thrown himself over backwards!


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## Meowy Catkin (19 February 2014)

lastchancer said:



			I suspect that is the state the OP's trainer is aiming for.
		
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Bingo. The trainer has wrapped it up in the 'learning to deal with his stress' rubbish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness 

The dog experiments remind me of that Mexican trainer who was on FHOTD for throwing plastic chairs at his horse until it gave up and just stood there as it was smacked repeatedly with the chairs.


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## wench (19 February 2014)

I would think that some time out in a field, then some time with someone like Jason Webb would be what the horse needs


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## Chestnut horse (19 February 2014)

Please tell me this is a wind up!!!!


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## ChesnutsRoasting (19 February 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Tbh I would is this was my issue to deal with .
I would let him come in at night with the other horses and turn out with them , so establish a good calm settled routine .
The other horses are out and come in only briefly then that's what I would do with him.
He needs the company of a couple of sensible adult horses to learn from.
I would just chip away at the handling in tiny steps .
I would take a book and read it in his stable ( might wait for better weather for this).
You need to get him through this before backing in considered and you will need to choose the person who does it with extreme care.
But the first thing I would do is invest in some gastroguard and I would prepared to for him to be kept on it a while at a lower dose ( one  quarter tube a day seems to work well ) if you get a good result from the full dosage .
		
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This^
Well Goldenstar, we finally agree on something!!


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## ChesnutsRoasting (19 February 2014)

Faracat said:



			Bingo. The trainer has wrapped it up in the 'learning to deal with his stress' rubbish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness 

The dog experiments remind me of that Mexican trainer who was on FHOTD for throwing plastic chairs at his horse until it gave up and just stood there as it was smacked repeatedly with the chairs.
		
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Oh god, that's just awful. Bloody moron.


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## amandap (19 February 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			His issues are psychological. He becomes consumed by anything he interprets as potentially stressful. The desensitising work he had done by Pro. Trainer was extremely impressive and they came highly recommended by Professionals competing at levels us mere mortals can only dream of.
		
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Please don't rule out gastric or hind gut ulcers suggested which often make horses very explosive or nervous. Leaving aside any handling issues at the vets or trainers he will probably have been stressed from the change of environment and stress is a big cause of ulcers.
Perhaps also look at whether a mineral supplement is needed? Hay/haylage and grass often don't provide enough or balanced minerals.

Just don't think you should close your mind to possible physical issues as a basic problem from the history you have written.


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## Goldenstar (19 February 2014)

OP have you tried a gastroguard trial ?


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## kirstie (19 February 2014)

I think some of the replies on this thread are quite harsh and unnecesary- some downright dangerous. If you read through the OP's posts, it does seem that she has explored many avenues. This horse has had plenty of time turned away- in fact most of his life, which has not helped.

I understand the use of the bridle and chain in that it is safer, but it is not going to solve any problems in the long run. 

OP- I do really feel for you, it seems that you are trying to do your best for this horse. It also sounds that he does have serious and deep routed behaviour problems, which are not pleasant to have to deal with, especially as an amatuer doing this as a hobby.

I have to say, I also don't agree with the route that your trainer is going down in locking your horse in a stable is going to help. I understand the reasoning that you have given and I still don't agree. 

Are there particular scenarios that your boy struggles the most with? What does he do? Is he in a constant state of stress?

I don't think I would even consider backing him yet in this state- sounds like an accident waiting to happen.

I feel for you OP.

ETA- I also agree that a gastro guard trial would be very beneficial.


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## debserofe (19 February 2014)

Goldenstar makes some very helpful suggestions, although, taking a book into the stable might not be a great idea if he is 'stressed' and throwing himself around!  

I do understand what the trainer is trying to achieve but it does not seem form your post that they have given you a way in which to reward him should he settle and de-stress!!  Having worked on behavioural issues with a very good trainer (no more issues) and having seen her help others, I know that sometimes what she has said has been taken literally as in 'it must be done every day, week, etc.,' when that is not the case, 'it takes as long as it takes' and if it takes less time, then you do not continue to push it!  My feeling is that the only thing he is learning right now is containment and that he will have no concept that he needs to behave before he is released as small releases (rewarding the try) don't happen - no matter how he behaves, he is stuck in prison - he won't know that there is a set period of time he just wants to escape!  Would it be worth asking the trainer if, when he settles, you could take him out of the stable, for some grass or even just to roll in an outdoor or indoor school or something, building it up as the 'good behaviour' increases - by providing a reward/release for 'good behaviour' which, if this is done over a constant period of time (a few hours or a few days and building) - he should start to associate quiet 'good behaviour' with getting out and about; which, hopefully, would lead to you being seen as his releaser rather than his prison guard!  Horses live in the now so he will have forgotten all about the 'treatment' at the Vets but you haven't and, by locking him up for a 'set in stone' prescribed time, you are putting a lot of pressure on your horse and yourself to have it fixed by then!  

I am with others on this forum, I would not sit (or allow others to sit) on this horse as it could likely explode leaving someone with a loss of income!

Please, please read (or watch) Buck Brannaman, Buster McLaury, Mark Rashid or Kathleen Lindley and find a way to work with, rather than 'punish'.


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## amandap (19 February 2014)

kirstie said:



			If you read through the OP's posts, it does seem that she has explored many avenues. This horse has had plenty of time turned away- in fact most of his life, which has not helped.
		
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Just wanted to go back to OP's first post...
.


Illusion100 said:



			Bought as a weanling, gelded at year and a half and now 3 yrs old.

He had an OCD lesion removed at 8 months old and prospects for athletic career good/excellent.

Before going to vet practice you could do anything with him, very sweet and willing to do anything with patience and understanding. The only aspect was that he could get a little fearful now and then, but a simple 5 seconds to realise no-on else was panicking, he was the willing to give it a go.

36 hours at vet practice later....returned a hat rack, extremely angry and fearful.
		
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Similar weight loss etc. happened at the trainers yard. Lack of turnout may have been part of the cause though.

In this case my feeling is yes handing/training is part of the solution but managing the horse in a consistent way he finds the least stressful has to be the foundation along with treating possible ulcers (if not addressed already). Putting him on box rest may eventually break him but how much stress, physically and mentally, will this approach cause him?
We can't separate the mind and body in my opinion, all aspects have to be addressed.


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## Illusion100 (19 February 2014)

I do wish to add that the horse has only been in the stable for 4 days. He has not been stuck in a box for weeks on end and I'm wondering 'Oooh wonder why he is hyper and unhappy?!' He is already improving considerably and am pleased with his progress in such a short time period.

He is stabled next to a calm horse, so he has constant company. He is eating and drinking well. In no way shape or form has this horse 'shut down'. When he becomes stressed in stable he is ignored, when he settles again he is given attention. He is learning that a calmer state of mind earns him attention and a stressed outlook achieves nothing.

He is a typical 3 yr old in many ways. Has to investigate everything that's going on, plays with grooming brushes, likes having stable rubber draped over his head etc. 

He actually has a very sweet personality and is very affectionate. However the trauma he experienced has been so detrimental because he is very intelligent and sensitive.

Same as everyone else, you know your horse. You listen to advice, opinions and experiences of others....BUT, that doesn't mean it is right for your horse. Having spoken to numerous trainers/behaviourist I KNEW immediately that the Trainer he went to was right for him. 

The option if having PTS is not going to happen. As many posters advised, he was turned away and has had plenty of time 'just to be a horse', it is now time for him to start his education. He will not be rushed or forced to do anything, when the time comes and if a decision is made to delay backing then that will happen. 

He is the most challenging horse I have come across, not due to him, but traumatic handling by individuals you would expect to treat your horse with care and compassion. I am not a Novice owner or rider and don't feel I should have to justify following advice I trust, that has previously worked 100%, in the very early stages him coming into his stable.

My op was to identify difficulties and enquire if anyone had experienced similar and how did they cope. Not please pass judgement on a horse you have never seen or handled and criticise anything you don't agree with.

I am just the same as everyone else. A person who loves their horse and wants the best for it. There is no plan to leave this horse in a stable full time and at the rate he is improving and settling, I am confident he will progress to field in day/stabled at night by weekend.  

For the poster who asked, no Parelli training involved.


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## ester (19 February 2014)

Glad to hear he has settled a bit OP.


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## Illusion100 (19 February 2014)

There is no attention to 'break' him regarding stabling him. He is already much better, much calmer, more relaxed and 'back to his old self', so to speak as in a curious, affectionate little lad.

He has not lost any condition this time around, so his previous experience at Trainers yard seems to have been very beneficial in this regard. He is eating like a Gannet (perfectly normal for him when he is relaxed!). 

A vet friend is always just a phone call away and no concerns of ulcers expressed even though topic has been discussed to length.

He is playing with wheelbarrow etc and generally being a typical 3 yr old atm. He certainly seems to have realised being relaxed is much better than being stressed when in his stable.


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## Illusion100 (19 February 2014)

ester said:



			Glad to hear he has settled a bit OP.
		
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Thanks, I'm delighted.


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## Illusion100 (19 February 2014)

kirstie said:



			I think some of the replies on this thread are quite harsh and unnecesary- some downright dangerous. If you read through the OP's posts, it does seem that she has explored many avenues. This horse has had plenty of time turned away- in fact most of his life, which has not helped.

I understand the use of the bridle and chain in that it is safer, but it is not going to solve any problems in the long run. 

OP- I do really feel for you, it seems that you are trying to do your best for this horse. It also sounds that he does have serious and deep routed behaviour problems, which are not pleasant to have to deal with, especially as an amatuer doing this as a hobby.

I have to say, I also don't agree with the route that your trainer is going down in locking your horse in a stable is going to help. I understand the reasoning that you have given and I still don't agree. 

Are there particular scenarios that your boy struggles the most with? What does he do? Is he in a constant state of stress?

I don't think I would even consider backing him yet in this state- sounds like an accident waiting to happen.

I feel for you OP.

ETA- I also agree that a gastro guard trial would be very beneficial.
		
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Hi, the bridle and chain are not and never intended to be a long term solution. At this stage purely safety precautions. He struggles with an awful lot of things and have chased my tail trying every method. 

I do appreciate that the approach I have been advised is not conventional but it worked before and is working now, even after 4 days. Extreme behaviour sometimes needs an extreme approach. I do not however recommend that this is done with any horse without careful consideration and detailed history given, but it is working for my boy when everything else failed. I refuse to give up on him when he is such a lovely horse deep down.

The trainer would in no way back him if he wasn't ready. Very blunt, to the point and knows their stuff. 

Thanks for being compassionate, there is defo a light at the end of the tunnel. It's just a very long tunnel!


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## debserofe (19 February 2014)

Well put - if it works, it works and what works for some horses does not work for all.  Glad to hear he is settling down and, as you say, a short term measure to ensure your safety is often needed because, if you get hurt, who continues on with the good work!  My boy is now 12 but I had a number of years of trouble before I met a trainer who told me that I needed to be firm, but fair and, in his case, it worked - he is now a super lad and every day when I ride out, I think how lucky I am to have him!!  Here's to you for not giving up!


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## ladyt25 (19 February 2014)

I wrote a reply to this earlier today at work but then the site crashed (or my phone did!).

I haven't read the additional responses since this afternoon but from scanning it sounds like he's calmed a bit.

However, just to add my 10pence worth (you probably have had enough by now!  ) 

I do not think shutting a horse in a stable is going to ease his stresses and I certainly would have turned out and, to be honest just left him be for a bit. I think sometimes e can do too much with them as we feel we must.

I have been through similar-ish with my youngster who I bought as a 15mth old. Without going in to the full (long) details, I had a fair bit of help from someone to assist with his groundwork and it has really helped me understand him a lot more - turns out he's much more of a sensitive soul than he makes out! 

The lady who helped me has done training with Andrew McLean (although she uses various techniques in addition to this). It may be worth your while getting in touch with someone from this sort of background/training as they will break everything down and teach you how to control your horse's behaviour and things such as his flight response etc. Mine relaxes so much more when he realises someone is in control of what he is doing!

I certainly don't think a horse can learn to "manage his stress". The horse is a flight/prey animal so shutting them in a box is not going to help an already stressed horse.


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## Flyermc (19 February 2014)

Im struggling to understand to idea behind this? Your horse is to stay in his stable until he relaxes. Once he accepts he'll be stabled and appears relaxed, you are then going to introduce t/o. Will he not go straight back to stressing again in his stable, once he's had his freedom back? If he does, does he then stay in his stable until he looks relaxed again, or once he's allowed out do you continue with him going out in the day in at night regardless?

Do you do any bonding with him? I play loads of games with my lads and they will happily follow me around, if im leading them and they get scared by something, they tend to hide behind me or freeze and wait until i walk them past it, they wouldnt bolt off, they trust me. I cant imagine wanting to ride a horse that doesnt trust you.


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## windand rain (19 February 2014)

He sounds like a very unhappy boy I am sure you are happy to follow your trainers view but it does seem very strange to expect a flight animal to de stress while he is effectively trapped in a box. I have a pony on livery with me  who is very sensitive and reactive She has lived with me all her life it is her temperament that makes her sharp and worried so she is turned out 24/7 is fed in the field and stroked and fussed on her terms. She is super to ride although was 6 before she was ridden regularly backed at 4 and a half and turned away again She has been stabled but is much happier out with the others. She is now confident and happy to hack out alone and in company is absolutely the perfect pony but she is a one person pony. Her new owner has been on holiday for three weeks and although I have been looking after her all her life she missed her girl and has been a real diva refusing to be caught to have her rugs sorted and generally being a pain, her girl arrived back yesterday and she is in seventh heaven. My point being that maybe your boy needs one to one with just you for a while. Get him out into his field with other horses and spend as much time just you and him bonding and helping him feel secure in your presence so he has faith in at least one  consistent human so no trainers no vets no other interference no pressure to do anything at all until he is happy with it. If you feel his confinement is helping then only you go near him and only you do him and only you spend time with him.


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## Illusion100 (19 February 2014)

Hi all, my boy is doing great. Much more relaxed and other liveries have informed me that he has been very chilled when they have been sorting their horses/yardwork.

Tonight, he was just like any other horse. Mucked out round him etc and he was happy playing with wheelbarrow and 'assisting' me. Just munching his hay and watching the world go by. He has learned that his stable isn't such a bad place after all and enjoys the 'room service' very much!


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## Equilibrium Ireland (19 February 2014)

Haven't read all the responses but I start young ones including unhandled. I do not ever keep them in a box 24/7. They may be in overnight or during the day depending but never confined. It's not conducive to good mental health. A routine and time to be a horse is always much better. It's part of the process. We start as we mean to go on. 

Other than that unless I'm dealing with the situation personally I can't tell you what to do. 

Terri


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## Illusion100 (19 February 2014)

ladyt25 said:



			I wrote a reply to this earlier today at work but then the site crashed (or my phone did!).

I haven't read the additional responses since this afternoon but from scanning it sounds like he's calmed a bit.

However, just to add my 10pence worth (you probably have had enough by now!  ) 

I do not think shutting a horse in a stable is going to ease his stresses and I certainly would have turned out and, to be honest just left him be for a bit. I think sometimes e can do too much with them as we feel we must.

I have been through similar-ish with my youngster who I bought as a 15mth old. Without going in to the full (long) details, I had a fair bit of help from someone to assist with his groundwork and it has really helped me understand him a lot more - turns out he's much more of a sensitive soul than he makes out! 

The lady who helped me has done training with Andrew McLean (although she uses various techniques in addition to this). It may be worth your while getting in touch with someone from this sort of background/training as they will break everything down and teach you how to control your horse's behaviour and things such as his flight response etc. Mine relaxes so much more when he realises someone is in control of what he is doing!

I certainly don't think a horse can learn to "manage his stress". The horse is a flight/prey animal so shutting them in a box is not going to help an already stressed horse.
		
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Hey, my lad is doing very well. I appreciate that this approach isn't the norm but it has really helped my boy. He is learning stress gets him no-where and calmness gets him lavished with attention. He really is a special case and I completely trust the Trainers advice. It took many months to find someone I felt confident to send him to.

I would not subject my horse to unnecessary stress just to see if it works, I feel I have exhausted every other option and have finally found a method that works. I'm sure I have no need to explain how heartbreaking it is to see a stressed horse but I have to focus on his long-term health.

His groundwork instructions are very specific. Black and white. No confusion or 'grey areas' for him. 

He is doing so much better and being the lovely little guy I know is his true self.


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## Illusion100 (19 February 2014)

Flyermc said:



			Im struggling to understand to idea behind this? Your horse is to stay in his stable until he relaxes. Once he accepts he'll be stabled and appears relaxed, you are then going to introduce t/o. Will he not go straight back to stressing again in his stable, once he's had his freedom back? If he does, does he then stay in his stable until he looks relaxed again, or once he's allowed out do you continue with him going out in the day in at night regardless?

Do you do any bonding with him? I play loads of games with my lads and they will happily follow me around, if im leading them and they get scared by something, they tend to hide behind me or freeze and wait until i walk them past it, they wouldnt bolt off, they trust me. I cant imagine wanting to ride a horse that doesnt trust you.
		
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No, he had been stabled at Trainers yard for 3 weeks (no turnout) and when he was returned and put out in field at my yard, he didn't even break into a trot. Just ears pricked, checked everything out and started grazing. Before he went to Trainer he was neurotic in field.

Yes, we do have a bond but unfortunately previous advice (NH) exaggerated his fear.


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## Illusion100 (19 February 2014)

Appreciate your POV. I agree, unless you are in the situation yourself you can't give a qualified opinion.


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## Illusion100 (22 February 2014)

Just an update. Horse now very chilled. Box-walking and panicking at yard 'going-ons' stopped. Still in good condition (no weight loss), eating/drinking well. Ears always pricked and enjoying being groomed and fussed and also the never-ending room service! (He gave me a baby tooth as a present today, so thoughtful). No injuries or mishaps to report, although trying to get in the wheelbarrow isn't helpful!

His new game is picking out which grooming brush he wants done with next, rubber currycomb and hairbrush being current favorites (although he does like having stable rubber draped over head). He is off to have an investigation around yard in morning with a very calm babysitter and a few hours in field.


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## Goldenstar (22 February 2014)

I am really glad it's going well .


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## Ernie2001 (22 February 2014)

Hello hope this helps. 

I bought my horse as a yearling - also gelded at 1 1/2 years old. At 2 he ripped his leg on barbed wire and had 5 months in and out of box rest. He found it difficult to be part of the her after this. rising 3 we noticed a lump on his jaw which turne out to be a dental cyst. Spent two weeks at the vets having it surgically removed etc. the nurses said he was awful biting kicking, he came home with bandages still on feet from theatre as no one could get them off! He was rude and spiteful biting and kicking at every opportunity. We decided to turn him out for the winter only bringing him in at night but he was back with my other two and in their routine. He started to bond with them and my old boy laid down a few rules out in he field. Now he rising 6, on gastriaid and never been better. Let them be a horse and they tend to figure a lot out for themselves. Sounds like yours has missed out on the lessons taught to him by his peers growing up and it's well worth takin the time to let him find his way in my opinion. Sorry long post!!


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## risky business (22 February 2014)

Quite the sudden turn around with his behaviour.

Glad to hear it's going better for him.


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## Ernie2001 (22 February 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Thanks, I'm delighted.
		
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Stick with it OP. The more challenging horses tend to be the most rewarding in the end.


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## Illusion100 (25 February 2014)

Ernie2001 said:



			Stick with it OP. The more challenging horses tend to be the most rewarding in the end.
		
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Thanks! He should be a superstar then!  

Due to field being flooded he was in for 12 days but went out today. About 1/4 mile walk to field, past the new cattle, 3 tractors clearing muckheap etc and the ripple effect of every horse galloping around field as he was led along track, ideal! 

No rearing or bolting, listening to instructions despite very tempting distractions to explode at. He was very much on his toes (lovely piaffe/passage!) but stood still and was very polite to take bridle off and waited until I walked off before he let loose round the field. 

Very pleased with him.

Also leaving his banks up in stable, no box-walking, polite when mucking out around him, backing up and waiting when feed/hay brought in etc etc. Lowering his head to have bridle on and off, picking feet up well and standing politely for rugs yada yada.

Amazing the difference 12 days can make. Backs up the advice I'm given was sound and it worked, despite the critics!


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## Luci07 (25 February 2014)

Keep the updates coming, very interesting.

I had a friend who bought a project pony and had no end of problems. Pony looked like he would make a really nice WHP or similar, but boy had someone wrecked him. Friend was very experienced and this boy seriously stretched her. However, like you, she thought outside the box and once he had accepted the whole handling on the ground (4 months), threw his toys out when they tried to restart him, she ended up using a man who backed racehorses and who used a bit of NH and Parelli. He was fascinating to watch, his repertoire of ideas was enormous and he has the patience of a saint. His thoughts were that it has gone so wrong for this horse with his initial backing that he almost had to create an entirely different path. Once he had got past the first hurdles and effectively came into new territory, horse just flew with his training.

It worked. Horse physically grew up, out grew the WHP they thought he would make and did his first CIC 1* last year.


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## AdorableAlice (25 February 2014)

maccachic said:



			I would never box rest a horse for 2 months.  If the injury is that serious that the horse cannot move for two months I be considering PTS.  Horses are designed to move by restricting this important process you are serious impending their heath (gut, feet, mental well being for eg).
		
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I hope you never have to deal with an injured horse.  Ridiculous statement and a lot of dead horses.


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## Illusion100 (25 February 2014)

Luci07 said:



			Keep the updates coming, very interesting.

I had a friend who bought a project pony and had no end of problems. Pony looked like he would make a really nice WHP or similar, but boy had someone wrecked him. Friend was very experienced and this boy seriously stretched her. However, like you, she thought outside the box and once he had accepted the whole handling on the ground (4 months), threw his toys out when they tried to restart him, she ended up using a man who backed racehorses and who used a bit of NH and Parelli. He was fascinating to watch, his repertoire of ideas was enormous and he has the patience of a saint. His thoughts were that it has gone so wrong for this horse with his initial backing that he almost had to create an entirely different path. Once he had got past the first hurdles and effectively came into new territory, horse just flew with his training.

It worked. Horse physically grew up, out grew the WHP they thought he would make and did his first CIC 1* last year.
		
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Thanks for the success story! Well done to both of them. It will help me keep positive on the 'trying days'!

Did specifically arrange for a bombproof companion horse and without it being there think my horse would have been much more difficult with everything kicking off around him! But there was no point setting him up to fail, particularly as so many positives and progress in such a short time.

He's just going to chill in field until w'end now (work commitments and not leading him down track in the dark!!) Then in at night out in day over w'end and see how he goes.

He is highly intelligent and sensitive, gets himself stressed and wound up at sights/sound and most difficult thing is to keep his focus and bring him to a calm state of mind but do so without reinforcing the unwanted behaviour.  He has to have 'specialised' leading, just leading him like any other horse does not cut the mustard as you have to be two steps ahead at all times!

Yard is very busy (his field is furthest away, therefore quiet with little action going on) and considered moving him to somewhere quieter. Decided that busy yard best to constantly be able to work on de-sensitising although it will be a more difficult route.

Thanks again for support!


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## Illusion100 (25 February 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			I hope you never have to deal with an injured horse.  Ridiculous statement and a lot of dead horses.
		
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No, I wasn't impressed either. Nor at the suggestion I should consider having mine PTS.


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## Illusion100 (25 February 2014)

Ernie2001 said:



			Hello hope this helps. 

I bought my horse as a yearling - also gelded at 1 1/2 years old. At 2 he ripped his leg on barbed wire and had 5 months in and out of box rest. He found it difficult to be part of the her after this. rising 3 we noticed a lump on his jaw which turne out to be a dental cyst. Spent two weeks at the vets having it surgically removed etc. the nurses said he was awful biting kicking, he came home with bandages still on feet from theatre as no one could get them off! He was rude and spiteful biting and kicking at every opportunity. We decided to turn him out for the winter only bringing him in at night but he was back with my other two and in their routine. He started to bond with them and my old boy laid down a few rules out in he field. Now he rising 6, on gastriaid and never been better. Let them be a horse and they tend to figure a lot out for themselves. Sounds like yours has missed out on the lessons taught to him by his peers growing up and it's well worth takin the time to let him find his way in my opinion. Sorry long post!!
		
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He's spent the best part of 3 1/2 years just 'being a horse' in company. 

His mother was top mare and severely reprimanded any other mare/youngster that tried to put him in his place but she never disciplined him. This changed when he was weaned and came to me. He was immediately 'put in his box' by others. Made no difference.

Sorry to hear your horse had such a tough time. Glad he's doing so well.


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## Spot_the_Risk (25 February 2014)

Wow, it's been tough on both of you, glad there's a definite change for the best.  He sounds as if he'll always tell you if he has problems, and at least that gives you the chance to put them right.  Good luck to you OP, I think I would have had a nervous breakdown, I look forward to hearing of future improvements and how he gets on once started and riding on.


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## Illusion100 (25 February 2014)

Spot_the_Risk said:



			Wow, it's been tough on both of you, glad there's a definite change for the best.  He sounds as if he'll always tell you if he has problems, and at least that gives you the chance to put them right.  Good luck to you OP, I think I would have had a nervous breakdown, I look forward to hearing of future improvements and how he gets on once started and riding on. 

Click to expand...

Thanks, there have been times when I've felt very low about it all, particularly as a beloved horse was PTS recently.

But onwards and upwards. Thanks again for being supportive, much appreciated. Funny how people were so quick to jump down my throat initially but very few responses when things improved!


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## Spot_the_Risk (25 February 2014)

Well he doesn't sound like an average horse, and in your position I have no idea how I would handle it so the best I can offer is my good wishes.  My own horses live out 24/7 but I know of others who would rather stay in their stable 24/7.  I guess with your boy you have to find a balance to keep him happy.  I'm looking forward to hearing how he goes under saddle, I'd like to think that the whole process focuses his mind and gives him a work ethic that he can find support in.


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## Fides (26 February 2014)

I think people have given up offering advice...

I suspect the horse has finally shut down so is now calm


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## Illusion100 (26 February 2014)

Fides said:



			I think people have given up offering advice...

I suspect the horse has finally shut down so is now calm
		
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You could not be more wrong.


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## Illusion100 (26 February 2014)

Fides said:



			I think people have given up offering advice...

I suspect the horse has finally shut down so is now calm
		
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Again for the record I didn't ask for advice on the horse, rather how do other people dealing with difficult horses stay sane. If I require advice on physical/behavioural issues I contact relevant Professionals, not ask on a forum.

Considering the Trainer my horse went to, is sent problem horses from Professional riders that then go on to have successful athletic careers, you must be utterly amazing with horses that you can be so dismissive regarding effective advice regarding a horse you have never seen or handled.


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## EstherYoung (26 February 2014)

Maybe have a word with Htobago? Her horse is another super intelligent, sensitive 'busy' horse and she's always saying how the stud he's at seem to be really good at going the extra mile to keep him sane and happy. They seem to have got his management cracked, so there may be some good practice to share there.


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## Patterdale (26 February 2014)

I would offer up my professional opinion, but as you haven't taken much notice of what's been said so far, dismissing everything suggested, I don't think I'll bother. 

I will say though, as a professional (just to stress that) who has backed and started many, many problem/quirky horses...I have NEVER face palmed so much through one post. 



Illusion100 said:



			36 hours at vet practice later....returned a hat rack, extremely angry and fearful.

Long story short, from that point he became neurotic (rearing/bolting/boxwalking/frantically pacing field) pretty much all of the time. Sent him to Pro trainer (when he was approx. 2 and a half), that couldn't do anything with him for a week, again he turned to skin and bone. 2 weeks later picked him up and brought him home........ requires bit and chain for ground handling for many months. Even let him think about taking an inch and game over.......... he's now in (being neurotic again) to do the prep work for backing.

Have tried conventional calmers....useless. .
		
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Illusion100 said:



			No rearing or bolting, listening to instructions despite very tempting distractions to explode at. He was very much on his toes (lovely piaffe/passage!) but stood still and was very polite to take bridle off and waited until I walked off before he let loose round the field. 

Very pleased with him.

Also leaving his banks up in stable, no box-walking, polite when mucking out around him, backing up and waiting when feed/hay brought in etc etc. Lowering his head to have bridle on and off, picking feet up well and standing politely for rugs yada yada.

Amazing the difference 12 days can make!
		
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risky business said:



			Quite the sudden turn around with his behaviour.
		
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Isn't it? :rolleyes3:

Who'd have thought that shoving a young problem horse in a box to 'de-stress' will immediately and magically cure such severe behavioural issues? I must have been doing it wrong all these years....


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## Goldenstar (26 February 2014)

It's great the turnout went well , it's a major stepping stone to being able to start to work him if he accepting the bridle on and off and leading a distance .
I would maintain routine  ASAP .
Do you have a school at the yard .
If so I would start to introduce leading in the school shortly in a very matter of a fact no big deal sort of way .
I also as long as you have company would be considering keeping him stabled at night long term until you are sure he's really through it .
The next thing I would do in six weeks or so would be a trip to a friends yard to go into a strange stable and see want happens , this will tell you a lot .
Well done  good luck , and I look forward to hearing how he goes on.


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## Meowy Catkin (26 February 2014)

Deleted.


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## honetpot (26 February 2014)

I do wonder why you posted in the first place, most of the responses you received were based on personal experience, mine certainly was. You are happy with the result of the method your trainer used, but without understanding the underlying 'theory' behind it its not a practice that I would like to see copied by any one else. I am not an expert but professionals usually open up their practices, theories to peer review, that how practice moves on, sometimes although practices are seen to get results, ie rolker, the general consensus is that the method is detrimental to the horses wellbeing. If they have some really interesting methods perhaps one of the equine colleges would be interested in studying it.


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## Illusion100 (26 February 2014)

Patterdale said:



			I would offer up my professional opinion, but as you haven't taken much notice of what's been said so far, dismissing everything suggested, I don't think I'll bother. 

I will say though, as a professional (just to stress that) who has backed and started many, many problem/quirky horses...I have NEVER face palmed so much through one post. 







Isn't it? :rolleyes3:

Who'd have thought that shoving a young problem horse in a box to 'de-stress' will immediately and magically cure such severe behavioural issues? I must have been doing it wrong all these years....
		
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When was it stated to be an immediate and magical cure?!


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## risky business (26 February 2014)

Patterdale said:



			Isn't it? :rolleyes3:

Who'd have thought that shoving a young problem horse in a box to 'de-stress' will immediately and magically cure such severe behavioural issues? I must have been doing it wrong all these years....
		
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I have to say I agree, like I said it was a very sudden turn around from being completely stressed, over reacting to everything, needing a chain to walk him from one spot to another and being neurotic to being completely sedate.. In a matter of days?.. 

I really hope he has improved so he can go back to having a normal life but it was a sudden 180. All due to a stable, have to admit it doesn't sound all that realistic.


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## ester (26 February 2014)

As I was one that did suggest that I might not keep a horse going who found life so difficult to cope with- the picture you have now posted of him is not one of the deeply traumatised animal which was portrayed/I was imagining previously.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (26 February 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Reason behind this is for him to learn to manage his stress. If he is removed from his box while he is in a stressed state of mind it re-inforces stress as a positive. When he is stressed he is extremely difficult.

The trainer came highly recommended from Ian & Heidi Woodhead who send their problem horses to this yard. I trust the advice I'm given but dealing with such a horse is very trying.
		
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I don't think his mind is as complex as your trainers!
Turn him away, does he have pals to play with, this is vital.


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## Patterdale (26 February 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			When was it stated to be an immediate and magical cure?!
		
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12 days to go from, in your words, a 'neurotic' horse who 'rears, bolts, box walks, frantically paces the field,' who can only be handled bitted and with a chain, and whom previous professionals have failed to do anything with, to a sedate, chilled, happy, cooperative and relaxed horse who walks out nicely after 12 days in the box, has completely given up his neurotic box walking ways, and is calm and polite to handle, is pretty immediate and magical in my view.


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## Arizahn (26 February 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Thanks for the success story! Well done to both of them. It will help me keep positive on the 'trying days'!

Did specifically arrange for a bombproof companion horse and without it being there think my horse would have been much more difficult with everything kicking off around him! But there was no point setting him up to fail, particularly as so many positives and progress in such a short time.

He's just going to chill in field until w'end now (work commitments and not leading him down track in the dark!!) Then in at night out in day over w'end and see how he goes.

He is highly intelligent and sensitive, gets himself stressed and wound up at sights/sound and most difficult thing is to keep his focus and bring him to a calm state of mind but do so without reinforcing the unwanted behaviour.  He has to have 'specialised' leading, just leading him like any other horse does not cut the mustard as you have to be two steps ahead at all times!

Yard is very busy (his field is furthest away, therefore quiet with little action going on) and considered moving him to somewhere quieter. Decided that busy yard best to constantly be able to work on de-sensitising although it will be a more difficult route.

Thanks again for support!
		
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Twelve days 24/7 stabling followed by five days 24/7 turnout (in relative isolation), and then a return to stabling overnight is not likely to make sense to a horse. And aside from boxrest for medical reasons, it makes no sense to me either. 

Either let the animal live out, or stable it every night to a routine. Surely a busy yard would have someone working there that could manage to bring in and turn out a calm horse? Or is this horse still a nervous mess? Which is it? Has this "method" worked or not?

However, it is true that a horse being led out for the first time after a period cooped up is more likely to behave if it has a calm, confident companion to lead the way. This companion does not always need to be equine, I have used a dog several times. And once a rooster. He was a very striking bird, who considered the yard to be his. Splendid fellow. Although this did result in the horse developing a habit of chasing birds in the field...


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## BeckyCandy (26 February 2014)

I have similar youngster very brave, people person chap- went to be castrated at 31/2 as retained testicle had op followed by a week of box rest with penicillin injections. He was ruined! I'd done all the groundwork by the end of the week we couldn't really get near him. Sent him away for 2 weeks to have monty Roberts type work done to re introduce rugs etc as couldn't do this alone and neede a round pen/ smaller area to work in. Came home slightly better but not 100% backed him to see if this would help and it massively helped he was surprisingly vey easy to back and willing. He is still spooky/jumpy on the ground an think everything you do will e painful and scary. BUT since being ridden full time he is getting better he bites a lot is as if he doesn't no what else to do it's not nasty he goes to them makes himself jump but the more time passes the better he gets. He is very way to handle in general just a bit jumpy on the ground now. I spen a lot of time playing with him. I won't just lunge ill lunge then do some ground work backing up, moving over both sides, teaching to how. Patience is the key. Routine and consistency ! Also as much turnout as poss to allow he's mind to stay active and keep him as calm as possible  good luck and stick with it it is so much more frustrating than is they have alway been that way I feel x


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## throughtheforest (26 February 2014)

Hi there I have read through most of the posts and from what I can see there is a huge range of responses and progress has been made I believe? 
Anyway I thought I would put my two cents in, largely due to the success that I've had with highly sensitive, problematic and (more often than not) traumatized youngsters. As a horse trainer using mostly NH methods, applying parts of many different methods to solve issues is key. Firstly look at management, living out 24/7 or a consistent routine of grazing and stabling nightly with friends and adlib forage is ideal. Next step, is handling, can you touch every part of him, catch, lead, load and trim him? If not 100% then work on it becoming 100%, eventually without a chain or any other tool. Only after all of these things have been done should you start any exercises with the aim of him being backed. This sort of unique horse personality needs consistency, and a trusting relationship is paramount. You need to do something with him everyday and one day after all the hard work has been done you will have an incredible and talented partnership. You have everything to look forward to.
If anything has already been mentioned beforehand then apologies for any repetition.
Amy


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## AengusOg (26 February 2014)

I cannot understand why some people are giving the OP such a hard time. She has been fairly open and has explained the theories behind her decisions regarding her young horse. I don't understand why it is so unbelievable to some that stabling a horse can not only alter its behaviour, but can bring about great improvement in its attitude and trainability.

I PMd the OP telling her about one particular horse with whom I worked, for a past employer, who within three weeks was brought from a horse which had had no handling and wouldn't be caught, and who may have been deemed dangerous by some, to a horse which wore rugs, travel boots, lifted all his feet, led out, tied up, wore tack and was bitted, lunged, loaded into a trailer on several occasions, and sold. 

This particular horse was brought in, loose, to the stables and effectively isolated from his herd from day three. His behaviour was a bit frantic to begin with, and he had little regard for me or anything else for a few days, but soon began to look for me coming to see him, feed him and muck out. After a couple of days his box-walking had ceased, he was safe to share a loose box with, and he settled down gradually over the next few days. He started to call to me when I entered the yard, and quickly became calm and trainable.

I have worked with lots of horses for various people, and used similar tactics to 'focus' them.

It was common practice at one time to stable horses for short periods so that they grew less reliant on the herd and more reliant on their human companions/handlers. I still do it here at home with my own. Each of them will come into a stable on their own, away from the others, and quickly adapt to the new regime without much fuss. They may call out for an hour or two the very first time they come in, might barge about a bit and even sweat a little, but very quickly settle. They learn the routine and come to expect visits and interaction with me at certain times of day; the rest of the time they eat or sleep. What is wrong with that?


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## Fides (26 February 2014)

AengusOg said:



			I cannot understand why some people are giving the OP such a hard time. She has been fairly open and has explained the theories behind her decisions regarding her young horse. I don't understand why it is so unbelievable to some that stabling a horse can not only alter its behaviour, but can bring about great improvement in its attitude and trainability.

I PMd the OP telling her about one particular horse with whom I worked, for a past employer, who within three weeks was brought from a horse which had had no handling and wouldn't be caught, and who may have been deemed dangerous by some, to a horse which wore rugs, travel boots, lifted all his feet, led out, tied up, wore tack and was bitted, lunged, loaded into a trailer on several occasions, and sold. 

This particular horse was brought in, loose, to the stables and effectively isolated from his herd from day three. His behaviour was a bit frantic to begin with, and he had little regard for me or anything else for a few days, but soon began to look for me coming to see him, feed him and muck out. After a couple of days his box-walking had ceased, he was safe to share a loose box with, and he settled down gradually over the next few days. He started to call to me when I entered the yard, and quickly became calm and trainable.

I have worked with lots of horses for various people, and used similar tactics to 'focus' them.

It was common practice at one time to stable horses for short periods so that they grew less reliant on the herd and more reliant on their human companions/handlers. I still do it here at home with my own. Each of them will come into a stable on their own, away from the others, and quickly adapt to the new regime without much fuss. They may call out for an hour or two the very first time they come in, might barge about a bit and even sweat a little, but very quickly settle. They learn the routine and come to expect visits and interaction with me at certain times of day; the rest of the time they eat or sleep. What is wrong with that?
		
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Routine works...

Stabling a horse for 12 days, that is highly stressed is cruel IMO. We are living in an enlightened equine society and I cannot understand why outdated and quite barbaric practices are still being practice and even recommended...


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## doriangrey (26 February 2014)

AengusOg said:



			I cannot understand why some people are giving the OP such a hard time. She has been fairly open and has explained the theories behind her decisions regarding her young horse. I don't understand why it is so unbelievable to some that stabling a horse can not only alter its behaviour, but can bring about great improvement in its attitude and trainability.

I PMd the OP telling her about one particular horse with whom I worked, for a past employer, who within three weeks was brought from a horse which had had no handling and wouldn't be caught, and who may have been deemed dangerous by some, to a horse which wore rugs, travel boots, lifted all his feet, led out, tied up, wore tack and was bitted, lunged, loaded into a trailer on several occasions, and sold. 

This particular horse was brought in, loose, to the stables and effectively isolated from his herd from day three. His behaviour was a bit frantic to begin with, and he had little regard for me or anything else for a few days, but soon began to look for me coming to see him, feed him and muck out. After a couple of days his box-walking had ceased, he was safe to share a loose box with, and he settled down gradually over the next few days. He started to call to me when I entered the yard, and quickly became calm and trainable.

I have worked with lots of horses for various people, and used similar tactics to 'focus' them.

It was common practice at one time to stable horses for short periods so that they grew less reliant on the herd and more reliant on their human companions/handlers. I still do it here at home with my own. Each of them will come into a stable on their own, away from the others, and quickly adapt to the new regime without much fuss. They may call out for an hour or two the very first time they come in, might barge about a bit and even sweat a little, but very quickly settle. They learn the routine and come to expect visits and interaction with me at certain times of day; the rest of the time they eat or sleep. What is wrong with that?
		
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Absolutely agree.  OP does not sound like a novice and to accuse her horse of being 'shut down' is a little unfair if he's not been observed first hand.


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## Illusion100 (26 February 2014)

risky business said:



			I have to say I agree, like I said it was a very sudden turn around from being completely stressed, over reacting to everything, needing a chain to walk him from one spot to another and being neurotic to being completely sedate.. In a matter of days?.. 

I really hope he has improved so he can go back to having a normal life but it was a sudden 180. All due to a stable, have to admit it doesn't sound all that realistic.
		
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No sudden 180 to being completely sedate. Stable environment was enriched with activities such as apple bobbing in water bucket, slices of apples/carrots hidden in haynets tied in different areas of stable, salt lick on wall, mineral lick on floor, stable mirror, grooming, practising having bridle taken on and off, groundwork in stable, Magnotherapy, Microcurrent Therapy and a combination of calming herbs along with walks around the yard with a calm companion horse. He also had a constant next door neighbour during day and lots of company at night. Had farrier trim him, dentist check teeth and vet check.

His particular favourites were picking out the next grooming brush and helping me shake out the fresh straw.

He does still require a bridle and chain for leading and do not expect this to change in very near future. However, when leading him to field after boxed for 12 days he extremely good considering all factors and that he is only 3.

There is still a long way to go but being able to have him completely relaxed in a stable is a very important step to his overall mental and physical health.


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## Illusion100 (26 February 2014)

ester said:



			As I was one that did suggest that I might not keep a horse going who found life so difficult to cope with- the picture you have now posted of him is not one of the deeply traumatised animal which was portrayed/I was imagining previously.
		
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Hi, the horse in my avatar is not of my youngster but of my beloved eventer that earned me my Country's colours. He is very recently deceased after 8 yrs of pampered retirement.


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## Illusion100 (26 February 2014)

BeckyCandy said:



			I have similar youngster very brave, people person chap- went to be castrated at 31/2 as retained testicle had op followed by a week of box rest with penicillin injections. He was ruined! I'd done all the groundwork by the end of the week we couldn't really get near him. Sent him away for 2 weeks to have monty Roberts type work done to re introduce rugs etc as couldn't do this alone and neede a round pen/ smaller area to work in. Came home slightly better but not 100% backed him to see if this would help and it massively helped he was surprisingly vey easy to back and willing. He is still spooky/jumpy on the ground an think everything you do will e painful and scary. BUT since being ridden full time he is getting better he bites a lot is as if he doesn't no what else to do it's not nasty he goes to them makes himself jump but the more time passes the better he gets. He is very way to handle in general just a bit jumpy on the ground now. I spen a lot of time playing with him. I won't just lunge ill lunge then do some ground work backing up, moving over both sides, teaching to how. Patience is the key. Routine and consistency ! Also as much turnout as poss to allow he's mind to stay active and keep him as calm as possible  good luck and stick with it it is so much more frustrating than is they have alway been that way I feel x
		
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I'm so pleased for you and your boy! 

Think I've just had so many opinions since his traumatic experience with vets that it was confusing to know what was the best way to manage him. However I really feel we have both 'turned a corner' now and am very positive about the future.

My lad and I had a bit of fun today in field, I threw and kicked a turnip about and he went and 'found' it for me (if grabbing turnip and cantering around field with it counts!).


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## Illusion100 (26 February 2014)

doriangrey said:



			Absolutely agree.  OP does not sound like a novice and to accuse her horse of being 'shut down' is a little unfair if he's not been observed first hand.
		
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Thank you. 

I have tried many methods with my horse and now things are really looking positive. We have a long road to travel still but we will get there!


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## Illusion100 (26 February 2014)

AengusOg said:



			I cannot understand why some people are giving the OP such a hard time. She has been fairly open and has explained the theories behind her decisions regarding her young horse. I don't understand why it is so unbelievable to some that stabling a horse can not only alter its behaviour, but can bring about great improvement in its attitude and trainability.

I PMd the OP telling her about one particular horse with whom I worked, for a past employer, who within three weeks was brought from a horse which had had no handling and wouldn't be caught, and who may have been deemed dangerous by some, to a horse which wore rugs, travel boots, lifted all his feet, led out, tied up, wore tack and was bitted, lunged, loaded into a trailer on several occasions, and sold. 

This particular horse was brought in, loose, to the stables and effectively isolated from his herd from day three. His behaviour was a bit frantic to begin with, and he had little regard for me or anything else for a few days, but soon began to look for me coming to see him, feed him and muck out. After a couple of days his box-walking had ceased, he was safe to share a loose box with, and he settled down gradually over the next few days. He started to call to me when I entered the yard, and quickly became calm and trainable.

I have worked with lots of horses for various people, and used similar tactics to 'focus' them.

It was common practice at one time to stable horses for short periods so that they grew less reliant on the herd and more reliant on their human companions/handlers. I still do it here at home with my own. Each of them will come into a stable on their own, away from the others, and quickly adapt to the new regime without much fuss. They may call out for an hour or two the very first time they come in, might barge about a bit and even sweat a little, but very quickly settle. They learn the routine and come to expect visits and interaction with me at certain times of day; the rest of the time they eat or sleep. What is wrong with that?
		
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After reading your post, I burst into tears. 

Support is greatly appreciated after so many negative, nasty and ignorant comments. I am only human, after all, I do have feelings too!

Horse in question is chilling and grazing in field atm, just as he had been chilling and watching world go by over stable door a few days ago.

I stand by my decision of stabling him until he settled and now have a stronger bond with him than ever. Vital factor. I called his name 50m from field and he answered, by the time I reached field he was waiting. He was calm, polite and we had some fun. 

I have no illusions he is 'fixed' but each step at a time. Our future is bright but we will have our off days.

Thanks again for not being judgemental regarding a situation you have no firsthand experience with and supporting what I am aiming for.


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## Illusion100 (26 February 2014)

Patterdale said:



			12 days to go from, in your words, a 'neurotic' horse who 'rears, bolts, box walks, frantically paces the field,' who can only be handled bitted and with a chain, and whom previous professionals have failed to do anything with, to a sedate, chilled, happy, cooperative and relaxed horse who walks out nicely after 12 days in the box, has completely given up his neurotic box walking ways, and is calm and polite to handle, is pretty immediate and magical in my view.
		
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No previous Professionals had him under their care (apart from the vet practice that performed surgery). As I expressed in a previous post, I was very particular as to whom I chose to send him to. I took advice from many, but no suggestions were given that had not already been tried and tested, to no avail. 

It just goes to show that I sent him to the right person and that their training ethics worked. This is not what they would chose to do with any/every horse in their care but they clearly had the knowledge to provide for extreme cases.

Edited: 'walks out nicely' is not accurate. Considerably well behaved for a 3 yr old (having spent 12 day in stable then led out with tractors going and horses racing round field) is more appropriate.


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## cptrayes (26 February 2014)

I can easily envisage that a horse with the kind of personality which feels it is responsible for the safety of the herd could become increasingly stressed over time. Especially after a traumatic event like surgery,  which proved to it for the first time that it was completely unable to protect itself or anyone else.

I can also see that it would calm that horse down to remove it from any need to protect itself, or anyone else, by stabling it full time.

The OP has sought advice when she needed it. Advice which has so far achieved a good result, and also a good deal of scorn, sarcasm and criticism.

Well done for being open minded about what might help your horse OP.  The results are all that matter, forget the rest.


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## Fides (26 February 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			No sudden 180 to being completely sedate. Stable environment was enriched with activities such as apple bobbing in water bucket, slices of apples/carrots hidden in haynets tied in different areas of stable, salt lick on wall, mineral lick on floor, stable mirror, grooming, practising having bridle taken on and off, groundwork in stable, Magnotherapy, Microcurrent Therapy and a combination of calming herbs along with walks around the yard with a calm companion horse. He also had a constant next door neighbour during day and lots of company at night. Had farrier trim him, dentist check teeth and vet check.

His particular favourites were picking out the next grooming brush and helping me shake out the straw
		
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If you had said this in the first place I think people would have been less hard on you (I for one would have). You made it sound like he was being locked away until he had calmed down. Distraction and enrichment techniques are brilliant for getting youngster used to being stabled  Personally I wouldn't have stabled 24/7 but introduced it more gradually but I guess trainers are after quick results so compromises have to be made.

Good luck with the backing  it's my favourite thing with horses - nothing quite beats the feeling of the first sit!


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## Illusion100 (26 February 2014)

Fides said:



			If you had said this in the first place I think people would have been less hard on you (I for one would have). You made it sound like he was being locked away until he had calmed down. Distraction and enrichment techniques are brilliant for getting youngster used to being stabled  Personally I wouldn't have stabled 24/7 but introduced it more gradually but I guess trainers are after quick results so compromises have to be made.

Good luck with the backing  it's my favourite thing with horses - nothing quite beats the feeling of the first sit!
		
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In hindsight I realise I had just had a (another!) very trying day with him and wanted to know how others coped with such without going mad. He had previous winter (approx. Nov to March out in day and stabled at night, introduced to stable slowly initially, fed in stable etc), he just got worse regardless of a solid routine over many months. 

Finally, got given the name of highly recommended Trainer, spoke at length, visited yard, watched like a hawk at everything they did and made my decision based on their obvious capacity and ability. 

I had no desire for a 'quick fix' and have him delivered back to me. I do not believe such a thing exists. 

Yes! I am extremely jealous that I will not be the 1st one to sit on him. You are absolutely right, nothing beats that feeling.


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## Illusion100 (26 February 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I can easily envisage that a horse with the kind of personality which feels it is responsible for the safety of the herd could become increasingly stressed over time. Especially after a traumatic event like surgery,  which proved to it for the first time that it was completely unable to protect itself or anyone else.

I can also see that it would calm that horse down to remove it from any need to protect itself, or anyone else, by stabling it full time.

The OP has sought advice when she needed it. Advice which has so far achieved a good result, and also a good deal of scorn, sarcasm and criticism.

Well done for being open minded about what might help your horse OP.  The results are all that matter, forget the rest.
		
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Thanks, I feel turned inside out to do my best for him and am very happy with his progress so far. I do not expect an 'easy' road ahead but truly feel he will improve in leaps and bounds.....hopefully not with me attached though!

Thank you for being understanding. Your POV gives wonderful insight and knowledge.


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## tankgirl1 (26 February 2014)

Spent the last 40 mins or so reading this thread... I have nothing to add as I have no experience of youngsters. Just wanted to say it was a very interesting read, and I hope things continue to go well for you and your boy OP


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## Illusion100 (26 February 2014)

tankgirl1 said:



			Spent the last 40 mins or so reading this thread... I have nothing to add as I have no experience of youngsters. Just wanted to say it was a very interesting read, and I hope things continue to go well for you and your boy OP
		
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40 mins?! Are you a proof reader by any chance? 

Thanks though, I wish you and yours the best.


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## Illusion100 (26 February 2014)

Fides said:



			Routine works...

Stabling a horse for 12 days, that is highly stressed is cruel IMO. We are living in an enlightened equine society and I cannot understand why outdated and quite barbaric practices are still being practice and even recommended...
		
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You seem to just want an argument. Arguing is an outdated and quite barbaric practice but you seem quite happy to do it.


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## Fides (26 February 2014)

Good luck with your horse


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## Illusion100 (27 February 2014)

Fides said:



			Good luck with your horse
		
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Thank you, we may not see eye to eye but both of us want what is best for our horses and will do what works for their sake even through different paths.

Wish you the best with yours.


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## Illusion100 (28 February 2014)

Well, he's started his in at night and out in day routine tonight. Walked in very well from field (with companion horse) past the giddy cattle and the helpful person in a tractor that turned engine on just as we were passing. Huge improvement since the last time he was led out to field a couple of days ago.

Good to take bridle on and off. Was unsettled in stable initially but when I came back to check 10 mins later he was just munching hay over door. Polite to have rugs changed and quick groom.

Groundwork sessions start again in morning. 

Still a lot of work ahead and many things to improve on but overall absolutely chuffed at his improvement in 2 weeks.

He certainly earned his extra carrots today!


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## Goldenstar (28 February 2014)

Really great news onwards and upwards .
Personally I always feel it's best to deal with issues like this rather than turn the horse away and hope it goes away .
You have been through this together and it will put you on a good footing when real work starts .
If possible keep changing his companion so he does not get too attached .


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## windand rain (28 February 2014)

Just goes to show that there are often more than one road to success. I hope he has a settled and happy future now he has calmed down a bit


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## Illusion100 (28 February 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Really great news onwards and upwards .
Personally I always feel it's best to deal with issues like this rather than turn the horse away and hope it goes away .
You have been through this together and it will put you on a good footing when real work starts .
If possible keep changing his companion so he does not get too attached .
		
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Thanks, I also really feel that for us to have a 'team' mentality will be so beneficial for the future.

Was thinking about swopping companion horses but feel a little unsure about it. I kept swopping companion horses last winter and on one occasion one of the normally calm horses spooked, my lad bolted and I was flung into a fence post. I understand swapping them would be ideal but am slightly put off! Current companion horse spooks by casually turning an ear and then back to usual indifference!

Maybe once we get a few groundwork sessions in I will use other horses again. It will be a good lesson for him to learn that even if the other horse reacts, he must be attentive to me. Just not quite sure we are there yet!


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## SatansLittleHelper (28 February 2014)

While I don't think I would have gone down the path you have taken with your boy I would like to say that I have a great deal of respect for you and admire your determination to make things right for your horse.
I wish you both luck and will keep an eye out for updates


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## Illusion100 (28 February 2014)

windand rain said:



			Just goes to show that there are often more than one road to success. I hope he has a settled and happy future now he has calmed down a bit
		
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Thank you. He is a lovely lad really and just want him to be happy.


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## Illusion100 (28 February 2014)

SatansLittleHelper said:



			While I don't think I would have gone down the path you have taken with your boy I would like to say that I have a great deal of respect for you and admire your determination to make things right for your horse.
I wish you both luck and will keep an eye out for updates 

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Thank you, much appreciated. I will admit that this is not the route I wanted for him but nonetheless, it seems to work when everything else failed. 

Hopefully any new thread about him will positive!


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## Illusion100 (5 December 2014)

Hi all, sorry to drag up my thread again but I am just so happy right now!!!!   

The horse in question is back off to Trainer for backing and is doing fab! 

Trainer is delighted, he's working beautifully, very responsive and coping very well. He's 2 weeks in, wasn't bothered about saddle and being a star! 

Much more confident and relaxed. Trainer reported he's a different horse. 

I just feel so happy and proud......and probably the wine has made me gushy!


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## Queenbee (6 December 2014)

Deleted


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## Clodagh (6 December 2014)

Illusion100 said:



			Hi all, sorry to drag up my thread again but I am just so happy right now!!!!   

The horse in question is back off to Trainer for backing and is doing fab! 

Trainer is delighted, he's working beautifully, very responsive and coping very well. He's 2 weeks in, wasn't bothered about saddle and being a star! 

Much more confident and relaxed. Trainer reported he's a different horse. 

I just feel so happy and proud......and probably the wine has made me gushy! 

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So pleased for you.


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## teabiscuit (6 December 2014)

Good,  here's to a long and happy partnership


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## flirtygerty (7 December 2014)

katpower said:



			I'm also voting for chucking him out for a while. Put him in a herd and let him just be a horse for a few months. He's young, he's traumatised - he needs to relax, unwind and psychologically detox.
A herd environment did wonders for my rescue - he's a different horse now.
		
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this, let him relax and find his feet, my 3 yr old cob had a huge fright just after he came to us, took him back to basics, but a year on, he is just coming right and he is in a herd situation with a nanny mare and an old uncle he dotes on, but he was started badly and when we went to view, visibly trembled when his tack came out, I have all the time in the world to take this lad slowly


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## Illusion100 (7 December 2014)

flirtygerty said:



			this, let him relax and find his feet, my 3 yr old cob had a huge fright just after he came to us, took him back to basics, but a year on, he is just coming right and he is in a herd situation with a nanny mare and an old uncle he dotes on, but he was started badly and when we went to view, visibly trembled when his tack came out, I have all the time in the world to take this lad slowly
		
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Hi, it's been quite a while since I originally posted this thread (about 7 months ago). Horse has made huge progress within this time and was ready to further his education. So far he's been just fab and Trainer says he's like a different horse. 

Sorry to hear your cob had a fright and well done for taking things slow. 

Mine is 4 1/2 now and just had a saddle on for the first time a few days ago. Didn't bat an eyelid and working beautifully, so I'm just so proud! Its taken over 3 years for him to recover from his trauma and is in the hands of an excellent Trainer who is delighted with him.


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