# Dog grooming regulation - is now the time?



## PucciNPoni (9 February 2013)

Okay, pet owners and groomers alike, would love to bend your ear about something that I'm a bit passionate about.

Dog grooming is currently under fire, which maybe you're aware of, due to recent incidents in grooming salons which have left dogs dead or to be euthanised because of negligence of the groomer.  The RSPCA is looking to regulate the grooming industry, and quite rightly so - though I'd rather it not be run by the RSPCA....the owner of the latest dog is doing an online petition as well.

I don't want this to be a witch hunt of groomers and certain items of equipment.  It's not the equipment, it's not all groomers.  The fault lies in the lack of training and quite honestly, the lack of backbone of groomers in many cases to charge realistic pricing for their work so that they can groom fewer dogs per day so that they are not causing injury.

Regulation of groomers would perhaps mean that they are licensed, must undergo a minimum amount of training and prove competence in safety in handling, anatomy, first aid and so forth.  Currently there is no such proof required and anyone who can buy a bench and set of clippers from Argos can call themselves a groomer.  The industry is flooded with such and as a result, prices have been driven down (many of these newer groomers are undercutting the more experienced to gain new business).  This also causes more experienced groomers to keep their prices from rising with the rate of inflation and instead they are just slotting in more dogs per day to pay the overheads.  Increased throughput often results in accidents or decrease in quality.

Very often the first (and sometimes only) question a would be client asks is "how much" and will go where it's cheaper.  

However regulating the industry would drive UP the price of grooming somewhat.  The price of getting licensed would mean training/sitting exams perhaps/annual inspections?  and all this will cost us all in the end.  The groomer can't just swallow the cost, it must be passed down to the client.  In an age of recession where people will choose one groomer over another for the sake of £1 or £2, this is going to be painful for some. 

So - if you're a groomer - how do YOU feel about regulation?  Do you want to see it happen and how would you see it implemented?  If you're against it, why?

Dog owner/grooming clients - what are your thoughts on this?  Are you surprised to know that grooming is not regulated and want to see it happen?  Are you willing to go to the more expensive / qualified groomer?  Or are you happy to take a chance?  If you would prefer to PM me that's fine - but I would love to hear from you!


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## PucciNPoni (9 February 2013)

Just in case you're not aware of the incidents I'm referring to

http://www.politics.co.uk/opinion-f...dogs-being-badly-burned-leads-rspca-to-call-f

One reason I'm not for RSPCA driving this is the fact that the equipment is not to blame for these accidents (but the reading of this report seems to lay some of the blame there).

For example, the fact that the last case describes a dog being strangled by the "harness" equipment.  If used correctly, this does not happen.  The harness equipment (ie LIPSystem) is a SAFETY mechanism which PREVENTS dogs from falling from tables and hanging themselves.  Not quite sure how that accident described happened unless the groomers were using it too tightly,  but again, that comes down to groomer training and misuse of equipment.


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## s4sugar (9 February 2013)

It would probably come under council licencing. 
I got inspected last week ( Boarding License). The Environmental Health Inspector turned up unannounced as always. Walked past the kennel, looked in the empty part of the cattery, did not enter the cat suites despite my invitation to do so and cast an eye around the prep room/store. Commented on the smell from one pen - housing an entire cat - and declined my offer to get him out so they could experience the musk of a Stud cat.
Then wanted to see the diary/booking forms.

She has no idea (by her own admission) about cats and less about grooming.

Licensing won't help except maybe a trade licence like hairdressers have which also applies to mobiles.

I get asked why I don't have more photos of dogs being groomed on my website and point out that working alone I will never step away from the table to take a photo.

BTW My license costs nearly £200 - neighbouring council charges less than half and some half as much again.

Council has little idea but RSPCA have none eg. being asked why dog in cage did not have water.....dog was put in cages to answer the door so they were not left on the table.


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## SaharaS (9 February 2013)

I'm just dismayed at the number of cases mentioned recently..and the 6 month old cockerpoo pup who replaced the families dog that had passed away before Christmas..the cockerpoo was killed after a salon owners two mastiffs attacked it?http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2273859/Cockapoo-puppy-savaged-death-mastiffs-dog-grooming-parlour.html#axzz2KOZZOJXb
 It would raise the question how it was allowed to happen..and the sign in that salon warning owners that the salon owners dogs would be running loose/leave dogs at own risk..surely that means there has been some issue or control incident before with these dogs? Just beyond irresponsible...the dogs should not have been left loose AT ALL in any area where a member of public could come into contact, what if the lady had a baby in her arms? Poor little puppy has paid the price. I firmly believe that for the protection of all the caring, sensible, careful & professionally behaved groomers out there, there must be something set in place to stop just anyone setting up business so that if someone decided to send their dog there they would at least be safe. Common sense is not always part of the service offered.Times are hard, yes, but so many of these negligent incidents which are pretty much all human error & could have been avoided makes me so sad. Having said this some dog owners would be equally dangerous with a blunt teaspoon let alone clippers & heaters or controlling numerous dogs..it would appear that financial gain is often more important than safety & security of the clients pets. So yes something needs to be done, but I'm not convinced the RSPCA or local councils will have the specific knowledge to give the regulations any more worth than for example our precious horse passport system..so it will remain easy for numpties to continue whilst the genuinely good sensible groomers foot the bill & pay the price as others have detailed above..very tricky.


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## PucciNPoni (9 February 2013)

To be fair to the groomer in the story about hte mastiffs killing the pup - it's very hard to say what exactly happened.  I think the sign saying "dogs loose" or in fact keeping dogs loose in the grooming salon is asking for trouble.  However, if the business truly was closed for the day and her dogs were loose it's still really unfortunate and sad... but slightly more understandable...but even if it happened at her own home she'd still be liable under the law for not controllign her dogs.  So I don't think this is a grooming issue other than it happened at her place of business.  Perhaps during business hours her dogs are kept crated, who knows. 

But to some degree, these kinds of stories will pop up now more than ever because grooming accidents are in the limelight so to speak.  I think that accidents can and do happen in every line of work - and when you work with live animals - very often not very well behaved ones (!)  they can and do happen often.  

How do we stop or at least decrease the number of accidents in teh work place - particularly an unregulated industry?


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## GinaB (9 February 2013)

I hope they do begin to regulate it. It breaks my heart to think of the pain and fear those dogs went through.

My friend is a fully qualified groomer and refuses to use the heater boxes, she doesn't trust them. I drive 45 minutes to take my dog and my sister's dog to her as I wouldn't trust anyone else. Schnauzer clipping is her specialty as well


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## PucciNPoni (9 February 2013)

GinaB - what qualifications does your friend hold (out of curiosity)?


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## threeponies (9 February 2013)

My only experience of dog groomers is phoning a couple to enquire about having my terrier hand-stripped.  One told me it was £18 per hour but she didn't have time to do it anyway, the other told me she didn't know what I meant  by 'hand-stripping'.  In the end I got my friend's OH to teach me and he did the dog the first time and I've done her since.
I didn't realise groomers didn't have to be qualified etc, but having seen some 'unusual' dog haircuts round here and even being asked who does my dog, I'm guessing there are one or two who have all the gear and no idea.
  My tuppence worth is that if I had a dog breed which needed groomed, I would certainly expect that the groomer was qualified, licenced and insured and I would expect to pay a reasonable amount for this service.


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## PucciNPoni (9 February 2013)

threeponies said:



			My only experience of dog groomers is phoning a couple to enquire about having my terrier hand-stripped.  One told me it was £18 per hour but she didn't have time to do it anyway, the other told me she didn't know what I meant  by 'hand-stripping'.  In the end I got my friend's OH to teach me and he did the dog the first time and I've done her since.
I didn't realise groomers didn't have to be qualified etc, but having seen some 'unusual' dog haircuts round here and even being asked who does my dog, I'm guessing there are one or two who have all the gear and no idea.
  My tuppence worth is that if I had a dog breed which needed groomed, I would certainly expect that the groomer was qualified, licenced and insured and I would expect to pay a reasonable amount for this service.
		
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At £18/hr for handstripping, I'm not surprised she didn't have time! 

Groomers do not have to be qualified or insured or anything for that matter.  Many are all of the above, too many are not.  

Horrified that you spoke to a groomer that didn't know what handstrippign was!


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## Bourbons (9 February 2013)

PucciNPoni said:



			GinaB - what qualifications does your friend hold (out of curiosity)?
		
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I was doing a NVQ 2 Grooming Assistant's course (cannot for the life of me remember who the governing body were), and this was a nationally recognised qualification, and IMO should be the minimum qualification that ANY groomer should hold.

I previously worked for a very well known groomer in my area that was inside a large pet shop (I'm sure you can probably guess what chain I am talking about, if anyone wants to know the name PM me.)

Anyway, I always refused to use dryers on dogs in crates, and always physically dried them myself to avoid incidents such as these. Myself and one of my colleagues always ensured that we were not "over dogged" so we didn't have to cut corners, and we genuinely cared about the dogs.

Our manager, however, had no such intentions. She would constantly book too many dogs in and then stick them in the crates to dry (myself and my colleague would turn the dryers off...you can imagine the scenes that ensued), she was REALLY rough with the awkward dogs and often THREW dogs into crates because she had been bitten etc.

One time, we had an elderly Scottie bitch in, who we all knew was a cantakerous old bat, and she was a biter so we always muzzled her. Our manager took it upon herself one day to groom said dog without a muzzle, the dog gave PLENTY of warnings via her body langugae, and predictably she bit our manager and bit her hard. Manager then picked the dog up above her head and then slammed her onto the table onto her side whilst screaming abuse at the dog. She then hit the dog various times around the face and dug her elbow into her ribs when the dog, who was absolutely terrified and had peed herself, tried to get away from her. Then, because the dog had peed itself, she threw it into a crate so hard it nearly bounced straight back out.

Myself and my colleague reported her to the store manager and the RSPCA. She was suspended for 3 weeks (on full pay I might add), whilst they "investigated". The RSPCA could not give a ***** and left it to the store manager. Well, our salon manager and the store manager were, shall we say, "good friends". So after the so called investigation, myself and my colleague were hauled into a meeting, given a verbal diciplinary and told that their investigation had found that we had been bullying her!! My colleague was so enraged she quit on the spot. I could financially afford to do this, although every fiber of my being told me too.

So I continued to work with this monster for about a month, in which time I torn the ligaments in my hip due to having to sit underneath a Newfie for 4 hours as she insisted that we groom it, yet we didn't have the equipment to hold him up...(I'm 5'1 and weigh 7st 10lbs...don't even get me started on this.) This was the final straw for me, and after a week off as ordered by the Dr I saw at A&E (they suspected a fractured hip), I returned to work and she out right accused me of lying about my injury to gain attention. She then started throwing scissor, clippers and brushes at me, told me she hopes my Mum dies of cancer (she had a lump that had been operated on a few weeks previously), as well as all sorts of expletives. I promptly quit.

I heard since that her reign of terror contiued for nearly a year, and a few owners had to take their dog to the vet for injuries sustained at the hands of this monster. She then had a nervous breakdown in the salon and quit, never to be seen again.

Sorry for the essay, but this subject is something I feel SO strongly about due to my above experiences (obviously A LOT more incidents occured), and I whole heartedly agree that it should be heavily regulated!!


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## CAYLA (9 February 2013)

Regulating and insuring is obs the way to go, and the way those dogs suffered is disgusting there was a dog near me that died in the heating cabinet too.


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## PucciNPoni (9 February 2013)

CAYLA said:



			Regulating and insuring is obs the way to go, and the way those dogs suffered is disgusting there was a dog near me that died in the heating cabinet too.
		
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I have used a drying cabinet for years.  I don't think it's the tool itself to blame.  I think in the way in which it has been used (or those that have been non purpose built with safety mechanisms ie a auto-switch off).  

Yes, those dogs suffered for sure.  But WHY did the accidents happen - it wasn't just a case of malfunctioning equipment.  It was a case of malfunctioning groomers who have been perhaps overrun with taking on too much work.


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## PucciNPoni (9 February 2013)

Bourbons said:



			I was doing a NVQ 2 Grooming Assistant's course (cannot for the life of me remember who the governing body were), and this was a nationally recognised qualification, and IMO should be the minimum qualification that ANY groomer should hold.

I previously worked for a very well known groomer in my area that was inside a large pet shop (I'm sure you can probably guess what chain I am talking about, if anyone wants to know the name PM me.)

Anyway, I always refused to use dryers on dogs in crates, and always physically dried them myself to avoid incidents such as these. Myself and one of my colleagues always ensured that we were not "over dogged" so we didn't have to cut corners, and we genuinely cared about the dogs.

Our manager, however, had no such intentions. She would constantly book too many dogs in and then stick them in the crates to dry (myself and my colleague would turn the dryers off...you can imagine the scenes that ensued), she was REALLY rough with the awkward dogs and often THREW dogs into crates because she had been bitten etc.

One time, we had an elderly Scottie bitch in, who we all knew was a cantakerous old bat, and she was a biter so we always muzzled her. Our manager took it upon herself one day to groom said dog without a muzzle, the dog gave PLENTY of warnings via her body langugae, and predictably she bit our manager and bit her hard. Manager then picked the dog up above her head and then slammed her onto the table onto her side whilst screaming abuse at the dog. She then hit the dog various times around the face and dug her elbow into her ribs when the dog, who was absolutely terrified and had peed herself, tried to get away from her. Then, because the dog had peed itself, she threw it into a crate so hard it nearly bounced straight back out.

Myself and my colleague reported her to the store manager and the RSPCA. She was suspended for 3 weeks (on full pay I might add), whilst they "investigated". The RSPCA could not give a ***** and left it to the store manager. Well, our salon manager and the store manager were, shall we say, "good friends". So after the so called investigation, myself and my colleague were hauled into a meeting, given a verbal diciplinary and told that their investigation had found that we had been bullying her!! My colleague was so enraged she quit on the spot. I could financially afford to do this, although every fiber of my being told me too.

So I continued to work with this monster for about a month, in which time I torn the ligaments in my hip due to having to sit underneath a Newfie for 4 hours as she insisted that we groom it, yet we didn't have the equipment to hold him up...(I'm 5'1 and weigh 7st 10lbs...don't even get me started on this.) This was the final straw for me, and after a week off as ordered by the Dr I saw at A&E (they suspected a fractured hip), I returned to work and she out right accused me of lying about my injury to gain attention. She then started throwing scissor, clippers and brushes at me, told me she hopes my Mum dies of cancer (she had a lump that had been operated on a few weeks previously), as well as all sorts of expletives. I promptly quit.

I heard since that her reign of terror contiued for nearly a year, and a few owners had to take their dog to the vet for injuries sustained at the hands of this monster. She then had a nervous breakdown in the salon and quit, never to be seen again.

Sorry for the essay, but this subject is something I feel SO strongly about due to my above experiences (obviously A LOT more incidents occured), and I whole heartedly agree that it should be heavily regulated!!
		
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That is a horrific story


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## Bourbons (9 February 2013)

PucciNPoni said:





That is a horrific story  

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It is! This woman was absolutley psychotic and tbh I think she is a danger to dogs. Apparently the RSPCA and the pet shop feel differently.

All grooming parlours should be regulated by a governing body, and have random spot checks every few months. Hopefully then, along with regulated training, this kind of this can be abolished.

There is absolutley no reason for any dog to subjected to this kind of treatment!

What makes it even more awful, is that when the owners used to come back and make small talk such as "I hope he behaved/how was he?" She was always say "Oooh he was an ANGEL! Such a delight to groom! You MUST bring him in regularly, we have an appointment free on *insert date here*"

The sugar coat theatrics fooled all of the customers.

With the Scottie - we told her owner what had happened, she nearly floored the salon manager, took her dog to the vets (had fractured ribs), and I heared along the grape vine that she was suing her.


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## PucciNPoni (10 February 2013)

Bourbons, as someone who's been on the inside of the grooming world, how would you percieve:


regulations to take place and by whom?
who would pay for it?
a individidual stand alone exam or part of the current C&G exams process?

and as a member of public, how much more over the current pricing would you expect to pay for a dog to be groomed?  For example, in my area the going rate for a Westie might be somewhere in the neighborhood of £25-£40...

Thanks for your input!  

Would love to hear more from other pet owners too - less emotive anecdotes is fine (as much as I know there are horror stories out there, I'm more interested in hearing your views about
a - whether or not you were aware of the lack of qualification and legislation
b- whether or not you would be willing to pay an increase in your grooming fees to help shoulder some of the cost associated with it?


Thanks muchly


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## GinaB (10 February 2013)

Sorry Pucci, just spoke to my friend/groomer and she said she had an exam to sit as she had to have so many years experience behind her before she could o the exam? Not sure which ones she means as she's been too busy to reply.

I would pay a lot of money to ensure my dog is in good, capable hands. 

Bourbon, that story is horrendous :-( those poor dogs and poor you for having to put up with it.


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## stargirl88 (10 February 2013)

Good god PucciNPoni your story has made me feel a bit sick! 

I have nothing useful to add as I always hung around when my fluffy dog was being groomed, and current dogs dont need grooming!

There are a number of aspects of the dog world that need regulating, just a Q of how


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## PucciNPoni (10 February 2013)

GinaB said:



			Sorry Pucci, just spoke to my friend/groomer and she said she had an exam to sit as she had to have so many years experience behind her before she could o the exam? Not sure which ones she means as she's been too busy to reply.

I would pay a lot of money to ensure my dog is in good, capable hands. 

Bourbon, that story is horrendous :-( those poor dogs and poor you for having to put up with it.
		
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Thanks for asking GinaB - but your answer sort of illustrated a point for me (it wasn't a trick question, honest).  

Many times dog owners make an assumption that the groomer is qualified thru some channel.  Yes, they may have been trained, and yes they could be qualified in the sense that they are competent, caring and experienced.  But even still, it's not a tangible qualification that can be taken formally to a licensing board as proof of competence or safety. 

I have rarely (in ten years of groomign) ever been asked about qualifications.  I myself am working thru them - one more exam for C&G.  I have never hidden the fact that I have not got them from anyone if they DID ask. And up til now, I don't think many people were that bothered.

C&G will basically test one's ability to trim to a particular standard, but it's not a guarantee that the working practices day in and day out are of a standard which is compliant with current H&S standards.  So this is where the regulations come in IMO - and it'll be tricky.  I would not personally want to see those who aren't interested in doing their Levell III exams be excluded from licensing - if the groomer is only interested in doing bath/brush outs and maybe some shaving off, they should, IMO, still have to prove they can do it safely.


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## tiggs (10 February 2013)

I have never asked about qualifications and have gone by personal recommendations, but I would never leave my dog to be groomed. My groomer comes to me, but I have a golden retriever who is not shown so only needs a trim to tidy her up. I appreciate other breeds need more work so might not be appropriate to do at home.


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## littlemisslauren (10 February 2013)

My terrier looks like a patchy bog brush because at 3 she has never had a proper hand strip and has only had my botched attempts at it.

The reason my dog looks like a tramp?? Groomers round here either wont hand strip, recommend clipping instead or say that hand stripping is incorrect. I wouldnt let them brush the mud off my boots. 

I have bumped into decent groomers at shows etc but have always lost contact details. This show seasons mission is to find one!

I would happily pay a decent amount for her to be done properly, tighter regulations regarding safety would put me at ease too.


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## gemin1eye (10 February 2013)

my mum is a qualified dog groomer, no idea what the qualification is but she was in a chain pet store watching the groomers at work today and was horrified by the way the dog was being handled. they put photos up of the dogs theyve groomed before and every single one of them has just been done with the clippers, one length all over. mum said there was a picture of a springer up today that had even had its ears shaved. i poibted out that if she was still grooming she wouldnt make any money at it because she wants to do a good job (handstripping and cutting them properly) whereas these chain groomers are just getting dogs in and out as quickly as possible


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## GinaB (10 February 2013)

My schnauzer doesn't get hand stripped, she's too much hard work!

Pucci, I wrongly assumed as my friend had went through the training that meant she was fully qualified, I didn't expect that she had to also sit an exam lot of work! I knew her before she done her training, and during it so I least I do know she's done proper training lol!


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## gina2201 (10 February 2013)

I am a dog groomer, and never been asked by a client if I am qualified, although I am to City & Guilds Level 3. There are many 'groomers' around, using the term loosely judging by the standards of dogs I have had come through having been to others!  

I wouldn't be opposed to licensing/regulation, after all the equipment we use (very sharp scissors and clippers, finishing dryers etc) can potentially do serious harm in the wrong hands, so it does seem almost ridiculous there is no regulation or essential training in place.


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## GeeGeeboy (10 February 2013)

I am a mobile groomer. I did two years in a salon- first as a bather and dryer, then doing some rough clipping and scissoring. I then went to a training school. So have experience and training but no exams as yet as they are too expensive for me to sit at the moment. 
 It's a horrifying thought to me that someone can just buy all the gear, rent a shop and set up as a dog groomer with no experience or training. Lots of people seem to think that you're just "playing with cute doggies" all day but its bloody hard work and can be dangerous. 
 I think some sort of regulations would be a great idea. I just don't know how they would be en-forced. As for the large pet shop chain that people have mentioned, they have a reputation for just doing very quick, un skilled shave offs. I've had many clients say they'll never go back as their dog came out bald or worse, nicked and bleeding from the clippers!


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## PucciNPoni (11 February 2013)

gemin1eye said:



			my mum is a qualified dog groomer, no idea what the qualification is but she was in a chain pet store watching the groomers at work today and was horrified by the way the dog was being handled. they put photos up of the dogs theyve groomed before and every single one of them has just been done with the clippers, one length all over. mum said there was a picture of a springer up today that had even had its ears shaved. i poibted out that if she was still grooming she wouldnt make any money at it because she wants to do a good job (handstripping and cutting them properly) whereas these chain groomers are just getting dogs in and out as quickly as possible
		
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Sometimes it's necessary, or even requested to do shave downs as part of the job.  But doing them well is something we as groomers should all be doing as part of the norm.  But it's also good form to be able to do breed profile type trims.  Doesn't mean that we should be able to do show trims as that's an art well above and beyond many groomers desire and/or capability.  But even if groomers are happy with just shaving off, they should, IMO be able to prove they can do so safely!  

and FWIW, there are certainly groomers who can and do make money taking their time and grooming fewer dogs to a high standard.  They do of course have to charge more money.  But many people will pay it.  HOwever it does come back to the question from many potential clients which ring up and simply say:  How much?  and will keep shopping round til they get a cheap enough price quoted.


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## PucciNPoni (11 February 2013)

GinaB said:



			My schnauzer doesn't get hand stripped, she's too much hard work!

Pucci, I wrongly assumed as my friend had went through the training that meant she was fully qualified, I didn't expect that she had to also sit an exam lot of work! I knew her before she done her training, and during it so I least I do know she's done proper training lol!
		
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Oh my, well I handstrip most breeds of dogs - mini schnauzers isn't one of them!    They *are* slightly different than stripping many other breeds of strippable dogs and again, it does come down to cost for many clients.  I won't go in to the details, but stripping a min snzr requires a level of committment from the owner that I have yet to find in your ordinary pet owning one.  

I do think *many* people assume there is some form of qualification when actually none exists in their groomer.  That is not to say they aren't capable of qualifying or in fact very good groomers.  There is in fact more than one exam to sit to become qualified. There are firstly assessments which take about a day.  Then there's a theory exam, which takes another day.  Then there are three modules:  short legged terrier, gun dog (cocker or springer), and either :  poodle, min snzr, wh fox terrier, lakeland (a bit ambiguous if you ask me).

As GeeGee Boy says, it's expensive.  You have to have the right dogs to do the exam.  You have to keep their coat in good nick for long enough in order to do the exams.  I usually keep bathing/brushing weekly FOC for up to a year in preparation to ensure I've got the right quality and length of coat.  Then you have the exam fees and travel to/from exam centers. 

This is often why there are many groomers who do not wish to undertake sitting their Level III's.  

But....there could be something else invented which is part of the Level III's or as a stand alone portion which is Health and Safety based only.  And maybe something that requires annual inspections.  However, I'm not quite sure how this could be worked for non-salon based groomers. 

I'm all ears if anyone has suggestions


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