# Barefoot Farrier - Collapsed Heels Navicular Syndrome



## diesel1981 (29 May 2009)

can anyone recommend a barefoot farrier or UKNHCP registered trimmer for carmarthenshire area? have heard of Sara Cave anyone had any experiences? Have horse with Navicular Syndrome and collapsed heels......advised to go barefoot


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## Nailed (29 May 2009)

Advised by who to go barefoot?
I suggest.. you pick a farrier, they are all trained..
Lou x


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## diesel1981 (29 May 2009)

Most farriers do Pasture/Grass trims this is totally different to a barefoot trim a podiatrist also advises on diet, exercise etc I have been advised by farriers, vets and people who have had horses with these problems! read the last post on Navicular syndrome, collapsed heels!!

Does anyone have experience of an Equine Podiatrist in Carmarthenshire??

They are qualified with IAEP (institute of applied equine podiatry)


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## Orangehorse (29 May 2009)

Jamie Hickman - I recommend him, he did a really great job of my horse - I am sure that mine would be lame now if not for Jamie.
He lives in South Wales.


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## Nailed (29 May 2009)

Can i just say that that pretty much bollox..

A farrier is more higly trained in trimming and shoeing. they will advise you on diet and excercise if you ask them.. oh and they also have the vetinary knowlege.. 

A bloody 'barefoot' trim is exactly the same as the trim you farrier does except costs you twice as much and they piss about abit..

sweetheart i know more about navicular than you can shake a stick at that why i asked who has advised you...

They are not qualified in the same level as a farrier who has done his DipWCF and that is that and until they are i will not be advising anyone to use them..

Lou x


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## TheFarrier (29 May 2009)

I do not know of a single farrier that is ''barefoot'' trained. 

Im sorry but as a professional i will not get into this debate again, i dont sent much store for EP podiatrists or the like as they are not regulated or highly trained. 

We DONT just do a 'pasture trim' we trim for maximum health and function and probably know a lot more about navicular than any EP. 
that aside barefoot is often a good option for a horse with navicular except if the horse is in work or needs more support 

oh and i second nailed.


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## silverbreeze (29 May 2009)

I am pretty much in agreement with Nailed.  "Bare foot farriers" do appear to charge £50 for something my farrier does very very well for £15!!

I trust my farrier 100% and think he does a brilliant job.  My horse is competed regularly and has hunted so not just a pasture trim (whatever that it)


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## TheFarrier (29 May 2009)

thanks Silver, dont call them farriers though


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## silverbreeze (29 May 2009)

i know, went and edited that bit sorry


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## Nailed (29 May 2009)

Yes silver.. not farrier hun.. i prefer cowboys =oP

Lou x


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## diesel1981 (29 May 2009)

so ur not saying dont do barefoot but use a farrier? i dont know anything about podiatrists barefoot etc thats why im on here, think it was u who suggested it on my other post xx our yard has an excellent farrier but a yard user said a podiatrist would be better, i appreciate any info and am not trying to start a debate but thought this is what the forum is for!!!
Thanks xxxxxxxx


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## Rowreach (29 May 2009)

Sorry OP, but I'm married to a farrier and I teach anatomy to apprentice farriers and I would not let a "barefoot trimmer" (not farrier) near any of my horses.

I am sorry if you have received a lot of conflicting advice regarding your horse's problem, but I have to say I strongly agree with the sentiments expressed by Nailed and TheFarrier  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Oh, and welcome by the way, sorry!


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## diesel1981 (29 May 2009)

didnt mean 2 cause offence!!!! im trying to gather info on the subject and it was The Farrier who suggested i look into barefoot on my other post although he didnt say use a EP, our yard has a great farrier but another yard user suggested i look into EP, im only after information not a debate!


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## diesel1981 (29 May 2009)

thanks a lady on our yard recommended his also but i believe he has moved xx


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## TheFarrier (29 May 2009)

This topic unfortunately often becomes a debate. 

All farriers can trim. I trim each horse as an individual and never call it grass turn out because it is so much more than that.

I know many horror stories about trimmers that i wont repeat as i dont slag people off. They are not governed by anyone and their training is irregular and often incorrect.

Choose a farrier. I am saying barefoot though. for your horse.
He has been recently diagnosed and the common treatment plan is barefoot in a field for a minimum of six months with regular trimming. get his feet right and the re-evaluate 
	
	
		
		
	


	





If you need any information at any point or advice or help i am always a pm away. and yes it was me that suggested barefoot. It sounds like a good place for yor horse to start.

A farrier will never insist on shoes if they are not necessary


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## diesel1981 (29 May 2009)

Post deleted by diesel1981


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## TheFarrier (29 May 2009)

If advice feels wrong to you dont take it. Ask for second opinions, third opinions. As many opinions as you like but take them with a pinch of salt. The advice you should consider is any given by a professional who has experience on the subject.

I did suggest barefoot but i would never suggesst or condone using an EP. Find yourself a godd farrier though. You say the one on your yard is good. start with him. 

Your horses heels need fixing, he may want to raise them but this can be done without putting a shoe on. talk to the afrrier. I dont want to give too much advice without all the information but this is what i suggest


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## Honeypots (29 May 2009)

Don't worry...Nailed, for some reason, seems to assume everyone should know she trained as a farrier 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  and instead of explaining this to people and advising from there she seems to rant first, explain later 
	
	
		
		
	


	




However, I would echo her's and the farriers advice of sticking with a farrier and steering clear of barefoot trimmers...


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## TPO (29 May 2009)

QR

I'd say involve your vet and get him to liase with your farrier. Let your farrier see and work off your horse's x-rays.

I've been (am) where you are and as I had a useless vet and farrier with no other options at the time and getting increasinly frustrated I tried barefoot/used an EP. It was a "trained and registered" person from EPAUK and what a joke. I can't believe I got desperate enough to even go down that route.

Everyone seems to say that "barefoot trimmers" can ALSO advise on feeding, management etc. What training have they had on that? If you want feeding advice speak to your vet and a nutrionalist etc.

Honestly, so I didn't suffer in vain, please speak to your vet or get second opinions etc.

I manged to find a new fantastic practice and farrier who work together. The new vet showed me my mare's plates (old practice didn't/wouldn't) and discussed everything with me. I also read everything that I could on this condition. It's now blatantly obvious to me how being barefoot would never work and my mare needed the support of a wedged egg bar.

I know it's different courses for different horses and it depends on multiple factors but please please work with your vet.

As discussed with my new farrier any trained farrier is perfectly capable of trimming a horse and has many more years training, apprenticeship and exams under his/her belt than any EP.

Good luck, I know how frustrating it can be with a navic horse.

If you want to pm about navic or owt feel free.


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## diesel1981 (29 May 2009)

Thanks so much, poor boy has improved in himself but the feet need sorting asap, do u know of the ways a farrier could support the hoof without shoes?


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## TheFarrier (29 May 2009)

There are several products that could act as a wedge without having shoes there are all glue products and can be made into a wedge. there may be other options as well. you should discuss this with the farrier are your yard for his opinion. i have not seen the horse the vet or the feet so cannot really say what he needs. He may even need shoes but probably since he will be in the field barefoot is best.


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## texel (30 May 2009)

Hang on everyone - I think you have all lost sight of the original question posed by Diesel................. 

_'can anyone recommend a barefoot farrier or UKNHCP registered trimmer for carmarthenshire area? have heard of Sara Cave anyone had any experiences? Have horse with Navicular Syndrome and collapsed heels......advised to go barefoot' _ 

So if there is anyone who can advise Diesel of Barefoot trimmers and/or Farriers who specialise in barefoot trimming in the Camarthenshire area I am sure it will be much appreciated


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## brighteyes (30 May 2009)

Just orangehorse then


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## Enfys (30 May 2009)

No to barefoot trimmer. 

Yes to an EXCELLENT farrier in Carms, depending on your area. I was near Ammanford. 

Wish I could have bought my farrier out to Canada with me, it took me almost a year to find someone to compare.

Another one with bad experiences of 'Barefoot trimmers' I wouldn't trust them to cut my dogs' nails.


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## maggiesmum (30 May 2009)

Rather unfair of you nailed to suggest that barefoot trimmers 'piss you about', are 'all' farriers always late? I'm sure that there are good and bad trimmers just as there are good and bad farriers, dentists, instructors etc etc !!!

And they may not be regulated yet, but I believe its in hand - rome wasn't built in a day.

Diesel - sorry can't recommend anyone but I'm assuming you've checked the websites to see if anyones listed?


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## whitewood (30 May 2009)

Used Sarah - no problems at all - very good with the horses and the feet are fine - been using her for and Mel for over three years now.


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## xena_wales (31 May 2009)

You could try Alun Jones as he is an EP AND a vet, so best of both worlds.  I think Jamie Hickman has moved, hasn't he?  As my friend was using him but said recently she needs to find a new trimmer.


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## Madasmaz (1 June 2009)

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. How many times have we heard from farriers when a horse has gone lame..."oh it's only a bit of nail pinch, it will settle", only to be left with a hopping lame neddy, a week of poulticing and in all probability a month of not being able to ride all for a hefty price of £60, not to mention confining the poor beast to barracks to heal from a human inflicted injury, vets bill, antibiotics, bute and the cost of all of that. I took my pony barefoot in February, and aside from being footy on rubble (which even a shod horse has trouble with), I am not looking back. My pony is more sure footed, better able to balance going down hill, and strides out better without shoes on, than she ever did with them on. And we just had a ball at the Royal Bath &amp; West. I have even had a farrier put his hands up in horror when I said I wanted her shod...he didn't understand why. Diesel...I will PM you with the name of a qualified lady who comes out to me...she will know someone who will be able to advise you.. she also has a warmblood that came to her unsound with navicular and was going to be PTS...he's now 100% sound and just had a lovely trip out to the beach. She does my pony and also maintains a 17hh Clydesdale, which farriers were going to charge £120 a pair to shoe...try and work that one out????


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## Diggerdog (1 June 2009)

I have used Sara Cave in the past for my two horses. She did an excellent job and I was very pleased with her knowledge and level of professionalism.

I was particularly pleased with the job she did with my horse that had severely collapsed heels. His heels now grow in the correct direction and have come back to where they should be.

I'm sure that a farrier would have been able to do an equally good job, however I am happy to recommend Sara's work.


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## Spook (1 June 2009)

Sounds to me as if you should take advice from a nutritionist (free at the local feed company, but pick a good one!!!) and use a trusted farrier (for trims good value for money at £15-£20 depending where you are)
There are alot of fancy names for foot trimming but you can't beat a blacksmith ( don't use a whitesmith, he does not trim or shoe horses!!!! and used historically to consider himself a "cut above")


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## Daisychain (2 June 2009)

Bottom line, Proof of Pudding is in eating, if it works then who is to knock it.


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## soloequestrian (20 June 2009)

Probably a bit late to add anything to this, but in my experience you get good and poor farriers and good and poor barefoot trimmers.  You just have to make up your own mind about the work they do and how you feel about them, and of course how your horse is.  Some farriers are much more keen on barefoot than others and I have come across one who really pushed for putting shoes on when they were not necessary.  I'm not sure the cap on the numbers of farriers trained is a good thing as it seems to wipe out any competition - most farriers are packed out with clients no matter their skill.  I'm very lucky that I've had help from some excellent farriers and an excellent barefoot trimmer and I'm now able to maintain my horses feet mainly on my own (none of them have any history of problems).  I'll repeat, I don't think there is really a farrier/ barefoot trimmer argument, just a skilled and well-educated/ cowboy debate that applies to all hoof-care professionals.
For support during a transition to barefoot, look at the EasyCare hoofboot website.


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## pootler (20 June 2009)

Well said Soloequestrian.  I have two horses who are currently barefoot and eventing despite various physical issues.  They are sound and healthy without shoes.  

They were both shod but I had so many problems finding a decent farrier that I took the barefoot route.  I had one totally rubbish barefoot trimmer but have now found one who is fantastic.  However, I do not think I would find it easy to replace the trimmer and would probably end up shoeing if they could not continue to trim my horses.

Equally I now know of two farriers locally who I would trust to do a good job of shoeing should I wish to take that route.  My point being that as you said there are good and bad farriers/trimmers out there!

I hope the OP can find someone suitable locally whether they are a farrier or a trimmer.  It must be a nightmare trying to do the right thing for a horse with navicular. 

Please can you give us an update on how your horse is doing if everyone promises to play nicely if you answer!


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## ScarySara (3 January 2018)

Hi,

wondering how you got on? I've got a Navicular horse, shoes off for 9 months, changed diet, environment etc. Farrier is currently trimming and hoof shape changing nicely but he's very sore for at least a week after trimming. am considering a trimmer and I'm in mid-wales. Sara Cave has come up as local, wondered if you have any feedback \ recommendations of trimmers that may cover mid-wales?


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## Orangehorse (4 January 2018)

I have used Sara Cave and Jamie Hickman, both good, but got quicker results with Jamie.  Nice bloke, very clever and had lots of experience.


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## ScarySara (5 January 2018)

thank you so much orangehorse. I will get in touch with him, he's probably too far away if he's in south wales


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## Landcruiser (5 January 2018)

Can I just ask a quick question?  How did the heels get to be collapsed in the first place? With a qualified and expert farrier looking after and shoeing the horse? It wouldn't be because the toe had been allowed to get too long and the heels had been allowed to migrate forwards, would it? And could the collapsed heels have contributed to the "Navicular Syndrome" by any chance??

Hides behind sofa.


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## ScarySara (5 January 2018)

absolutely. navicular caused by deterioration in hoof confirmation over an 18 month period caused by poor farriery. tried remedial farrier with new farrier but no improvement. massive improvement without shoes being trimmed by a farrier but now we have stalled and my farrier, although a great farrier, is not experienced in barefoot trimming so I'd like more input from an experienced trimmer. 

I've had shod horses for the whole 19 years I've owned horses but when shoeing failed and I was told to have my horse shot I looked for alternatives and I'm very happy with progress without shoes. the horse deserves not to be written off without trying all the options.

if you are going to give me ***** about barefoot, don't bother, I'm not interested in your opinion. I'm looking for solutions to make my horse sound. I tried farriery and vet and farrier agreed it wasn't working.


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## ScarySara (5 January 2018)

apologies. from prev remark. I was expecting a diatribe on why my horse needs shoes.


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## Andalucian (5 January 2018)

Jamie covers a wide area, give him a call.


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## ycbm (6 January 2018)

Can I just add because no-one has made the point so far. SS,  NO horse should be more sore after trimming than it was before, never mind for a while week. Your farrier is doing a dreadful job . Did you tell him, and what did he say?


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## ScarySara (8 January 2018)

thanks I've sent him a mail and a text and will call him if I've not heard from him in a couple of days


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## Landcruiser (12 January 2018)

ScarySara said:



			apologies. from prev remark. I was expecting a diatribe on why my horse needs shoes.
		
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I only just saw this! Goodness me, the only ***** about barefoot you'll get from me is that I firmly believe that all horses would have healthier hooves if never shod (and of course given good nutrition/environment), and that most of the shod hooves I see have poor conformation as a result, or are damaged by shoeing. I was being sarcastic


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## Marmaduke (13 January 2018)

Don't know if it will help but when my horse was diagnosed with navicular and coffin joint problems a few years back i didnt want to remedial shoe as heart bars had previously just crushed his heels and he was too flat footed and thin soles to survive all the stony ground here. A friend put me in touch with Alf Hall from Lambourn. He travelled to Cumbria and trained my farrier how to fit his special shoes. Half shoe round front to hold on a full pad underneath to support and protect but not crush the heel. These have worked. 3 years on my horse is happy and sound to do dressage and hacking etc. I have had him barefoot in the past but as soon as the ground became wet and his hooves softened up (i prefer him out as much as possible) he couldn't cope. Good luck with your horse!


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## amandaco2 (13 January 2018)

a lot of farriers ive used trim the horse- horse is sore for 2-7 days after trim. farrier sacked. repeat. 
they used the knife on the bottom of the foot despite being told it makes my horses sore!! my horse needs the material they put down on the bottom of the hoof to feel comfortable on the rougher ground....

I must have used a lot of farriers over the years finding one who trims my horses the way they need to be trimmed. it can be a nightmare.


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## ScarySara (16 January 2018)

thank you very much. I will certainly bare that in mind. mine currently has bruised toes and is hopping lame with it. I don't know how he got bruised toes in a field so I'm guessing the same. his feet are just soft at the moment I think.


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## ScarySara (15 February 2018)

Orangehorse said:



			I have used Sara Cave and Jamie Hickman, both good, but got quicker results with Jamie.  Nice bloke, very clever and had lots of experience.
		
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Sadly neither are practicing any more d.t. Ill health


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