# Turning out a clipped horse with no rug to lose weight ?



## NovemberQuestion (6 November 2014)

Would you turn a fully clipped horse out (horse is a very very good doer) over winter over night on a dry day/evening to help it lose weight? If it was raining however then only a rain sheet and nothing more ? A vet has advised this.


----------



## montanna (6 November 2014)

Not in a million years. Soak its hay, cut hard feed out and exercise it.


----------



## ihatework (6 November 2014)

Only if the horse was so obese that it was an urgent life or death intervention.

You will find some posters aghast at the idea of clipping and under rugging as a means to loose weight. I'm supportive of it but in moderation. The ideal would be not to let a horse get so obese in the first place!


----------



## Goldenstar (6 November 2014)

I do under rug fat clipped horses but would not go this far .


----------



## acorn92x (6 November 2014)

My Highland pony has a chaser clip and will be wearing a rain sheet on a mild day! She is slightly porky but there is no way in a billion years I would ever turn anything (Morbidly obese or not) out naked that had been fully clipped when it has been cold. There was frost on my car at 6am when I drove to the stables and I would never, ever even consider not putting a rug on a horse that has been fully clipped when I know the weather is going to be cold or bad!

As other people have said, plenty of exercise, soak it's hay, stop feeding it so much and if you can, restrict it's grazing. A cold horse might lose weight but it will also lose condition and be down right miserable.


----------



## ljohnsonsj (6 November 2014)

I agree to an extent. Out during the day without a rug but not on a night. Just because a horse is obese doesn't mean it can't catch a chill. Without a rug during the day if its dry.On a bare field with soaked hay and a lot of exercise!


----------



## NellRosk (6 November 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			I do under rug fat clipped horses but would not go this far .
		
Click to expand...

This.


----------



## NovemberQuestion (6 November 2014)

Said horse is already being exercised each day and has already been muzzled for the summer &#8211; the owner has already been very successful in getting weight off the horse already, this is just a remaining amount of weight the vet wants off the horse. Would you do it then ? 

Horse is in during the day for a few hours but does not touch her very small haynet - it sleeps.


----------



## cptrayes (6 November 2014)

NovemberQuestion said:



			Said horse is already being exercised each day and has already been muzzled for the summer &#8211; the owner has already been very successful in getting weight off the horse already, this is just a remaining amount of weight the vet wants off the horse. Would you do it then ? 

Horse is in during the day for a few hours but does not touch her very small haynet - it sleeps.
		
Click to expand...




Yes, provided I was happy that the horse was losing weight to keep warm. That's the whole point- the horse is not cold, it is mobilising fat stores to keep warm. That is just what nature intended them to do.

If the horse starts shivering, no.


----------



## EquiEquestrian556 (6 November 2014)

No, I certainly wouldn't. The mare will be far too cold. As others have said, exercise her and reduce hard feed.


----------



## soulfull (6 November 2014)

NovemberQuestion said:



			Said horse is already being exercised each day and has already been muzzled for the summer &#8211; the owner has already been very successful in getting weight off the horse already, this is just a remaining amount of weight the vet wants off the horse. Would you do it then ? 

Horse is in during the day for a few hours but does not touch her very small haynet - it sleeps.
		
Click to expand...

In which case horse is still getting too much grass. I would still keep a muzzle in it restrict grazing


----------



## NovemberQuestion (6 November 2014)

Just to clarify - she has no hard feed at all, only grass and her haynet


----------



## Follysmum (6 November 2014)

No i would not. If fully clipped, worked and diet has been altered according to weight I would slightly under rug.  I do think people over rug as a rule rather than under rug anyway.


----------



## cptrayes (6 November 2014)

soulfull said:



			In which case horse is still getting too much grass. I would still keep a muzzle in it restrict grazing
		
Click to expand...

I don't get this, I really don't.  Those of you who don't want the horse to be cold want to under feed it instead.  Have you never been on a diet?  If you are underfed, you get cold.  If the horse is going to be cold anyway, I'd much rather it had a bellyful of food.


----------



## Sugar_and_Spice (6 November 2014)

NovemberQuestion said:



			Would you turn a fully clipped horse out (horse is a very very good doer) over winter over night on a dry day/evening to help it lose weight? If it was raining however then only a rain sheet and nothing more ? A vet has advised this.
		
Click to expand...

Not overnight. During the day yes, unless heavy rain. Naked in the stable at night I wouldn't have a problem with.


----------



## ihatework (6 November 2014)

NovemberQuestion said:



			Said horse is already being exercised each day and has already been muzzled for the summer &#8211; the owner has already been very successful in getting weight off the horse already, this is just a remaining amount of weight the vet wants off the horse. Would you do it then ? 

Horse is in during the day for a few hours but does not touch her very small haynet - it sleeps.
		
Click to expand...

I personally, in this situation wouldn't leave the horse fully clipped and out naked overnight. They would either have a sheet on, or I would leave a blanket of hair on. I'd probably hate doing it too, but if it was the difference between having a horse likely to come down with laminitis in the spring or not then needs must. I must say though, this does sound quite extreme, I managed to really strip some weight off one of mine last winter without such drastic measures - out 24/7 on poor grass, topped up with a bit of hay, a low chase clip and light rugging. I probably got 50kg off him that way.

I'd try and have the horse out 24/7 but on as little grass as possible, topped up with well soaked hay or straw.


----------



## LovesCobs (6 November 2014)

NovemberQuestion said:



			Would you turn a fully clipped horse out (horse is a very very good doer) over winter over night on a dry day/evening to help it lose weight? If it was raining however then only a rain sheet and nothing more ? A vet has advised this&#8230;.
		
Click to expand...

yes if in this weather and not raining (id probably rug at night)
though i have put a rain sheet on my pony who's been clipped and is overweight.
i know its better not to let them get fat in the first place and in 3 summers I never have, i obviously got it wrong with the grass growth this autumn. she's on soaked hay with straw, exercised, clipped, off the grass and i'm still struggling! at least no more is going on.
i suppose it depends on what Novemberquestion has already tried and how fat pony is. the vets suggestion may not be out of the question in dry weather at the minute 
just read you're second post, pony needs to come off the grass (this was my mistake). my grass is still growing and causing me problems


----------



## xgemmax (6 November 2014)

No definitely not, its cold at night here! the poor thing will prob freeze!! I'd maybe put a lighter rug on and soak hay instead


----------



## lelly (6 November 2014)

No never. There are much kinder ways of dropping weight. As others have said she must still be getting too much grass. I'm sure my neighbours would report me to the RSPCA if I did that. Non horsey people who watch every move I make.


----------



## windand rain (6 November 2014)

No never it is bad enough being cold but the chances of the weather changing in a matter of minutes at the moment I would not risk it getting wet and cold.Personally like many others have said I would put a light rug on and encourage the horse to move around by using a track system if at all possible. Left cold it will just stand in a sheltered corner shivering and it is possible because it is moving less it will put weight on


----------



## Slightlyconfused (6 November 2014)

NovemberQuestion said:



			Would you turn a fully clipped horse out (horse is a very very good doer) over winter over night on a dry day/evening to help it lose weight? If it was raining however then only a rain sheet and nothing more ? A vet has advised this.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I have done this, though its been out I  the day and in at night as yard rules

My mare is retired due to ks, has tweaked a suspensory so cannot do any work what's so ever and puts weight on just by looking at grass. 

I wont let her shiver, with the sheet on she is warm to touch which is enough.


----------



## MerrySherryRider (6 November 2014)

Vet advised me to do the same. He was recovering from laminitis and his exact words were, clip him, don't rug and let the ****** drop the weight. I want to see him looking poor. 
He wasn't obese but as he was not in work and able to maintain his weight on fresh air, it was the kindest and most effective option. He had a rainsheet when it was raining or there was a significant chill factor on a windy day though. If he'd been shivering or looking tucked up or dropped weight too rapidly, I would have rugged him appropriately. 

I think my vet's advice was meant to be taken not literally but with common sense. He expected me to monitor his well being but wanted to counteract the tendancy of over rugging without considering how horses make heat to keep warm.


----------



## Apercrumbie (6 November 2014)

I would keep the horse in a lightweight rug/rainsheet but with a fully clipped horse I wouldn't be comfortable with no rug.  No protection for their skin against the rain and wind.  How is the horse currently rugged?  Is she dropping weight with light rugging?


----------



## soulfull (6 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			I don't get this, I really don't.  Those of you who don't want the horse to be cold want to under feed it instead.  Have you never been on a diet?  If you are underfed, you get cold.  If the horse is going to be cold anyway, I'd much rather it had a bellyful of food.
		
Click to expand...


But I wouldn't be turning it out without a rug!


----------



## Merrymoles (6 November 2014)

I've been swapping my horse's grazing around this week for one reason and another so either he has been on the winter field which is large and has loads of grass or on the hay field which is very sparse and where I have given him hay in addition to the grazing.

It has been noticeable because I've been swapping around that he is much, much warmer when on the long grass so it really does do nature's central heating job. Tomorrow he will be back on the longer grass and back in a rain sheet (only because it's forecast to tip down) so that he can use some of those calories to keep warm.

I can't see any problem with following the vet's advice (with common sense) as long as the horse is checked frequently. A rain sheet helps with the wind chill factor and, as long as the horse has the freedom to move around and some shelter, it should be warm enough.

ETA - I'm not sure of my science on this but have always understood that food = calories = heat, in fact that calories is a measure of heat. It has certainly made sense to me this week!


----------



## WelshD (6 November 2014)

I'm over 20 stone. I hope to goodness my doctor doesn't read this!!


----------



## Supertrooper (6 November 2014)

My vet also told me to do this if nec but she said only a bib clip or at most a low trace clip........


----------



## southerncomfort (6 November 2014)

Probably not if it had a full clip unless the weather was very mild.  I would have no problem leaving a fat horse with a bib or blanket clip out during the day without a rug.  Would definately rug if it was out at night though.


----------



## 9tails (6 November 2014)

WelshD said:



			I'm over 20 stone. I hope to goodness my doctor doesn't read this!!
		
Click to expand...

Quite!  

It sounds like the owner is doing a good job of getting the weight off gradually so it seems rather drastic to do this when it's all going in the right direction.  For the record, I wouldn't put a clipped horse out naked overnight, unless the clip was minimal like a bib.


----------



## Wagtail (6 November 2014)

IMO it would be cruel. Would a person walk around half naked 24/7 in this weather to lose weight? Do doctors recommend people do this? No they don't, because it would be unbearable. Why people think it is okay to treat horses like this, I don't know. If horses are fed according to their needs and restricted with muzzle, or strip grazing or soaked hay, then rapid weight loss can be achieved without resorting to cruelty.


----------



## BlackVelvet (6 November 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			I do under rug fat clipped horses but would not go this far .
		
Click to expand...

This. I used to fully clip my old boy and tried to keep him as under rugged as possible, but never so he was shivering or cold.


----------



## Apercrumbie (6 November 2014)

Supertrooper said:



			My vet also told me to do this if nec but she said only a bib clip or at most a low trace clip........
		
Click to expand...

That makes far more sense than turning out a fully clipped horse.  Still enough to keep them warm, particularly over their bum.  I think a full clip naked is really asking for trouble/illness.


----------



## ester (6 November 2014)

not fully clipped no, I would perhaps be under rugging a bit like goldenstar said but not fully clipped and naked and out.


----------



## 3OldPonies (6 November 2014)

No way.

Think about it this way, how would you feel if you were taken from your lovely snuggly coat and left outside all night?

Pretty rotten I should think.  

Really surprised at a vet saying such a thing, it's crossing over into a welfare issue to try and freeze weight off.


----------



## MyBoyChe (6 November 2014)

I have my highland blanket clipped with head and legs left on, he is still out 24/7 with a rain sheet on overnight.  He is plenty warm enough so far.


----------



## twiggy2 (6 November 2014)

I would do a high blanket clip and put out naked on dry days, I would not turn out a horse naked if it did not have its natural coat over its back and loins.

OP if the horse has lost weight over the summer then the owner has been doing something right-if the horse is not touching hay when it comes in it is because it has a full belly and therefore is getting too much grass, I would increase exercise, feed soaked hay and restrict grazing


----------



## Hetsmum (6 November 2014)

I am sure I have read about WHW using this method to get weight off very over weight horses.........  I will probably be shot down in flames but I can see this working on a horse/pony that has specific issue and therefore can't be exercised.  If muzzling does not work where do you go from there?  I would rather the horse loose the weight through cold than lack of fibre.


----------



## Slightlyconfused (6 November 2014)

Hetsmum said:



			I am sure I have read about WHW using this method to get weight off very over weight horses.........  I will probably be shot down in flames but I can see this working on a horse/pony that has specific issue and therefore can't be exercised.  If muzzling does not work where do you go from there?  I would rather the horse loose the weight through cold than lack of fibre.
		
Click to expand...

This is basically what I do with my mare when I need to but she has a rain sheet on. Her body always feels warm when I lay my hands on her.


----------



## MerrySherryRider (6 November 2014)

I'm surprised that so many people aren't aware that this is pretty standard veterinary advice. With common sense, it shouldn't mean weight drops too rapidly, if it does than obviously the horse needs more fibre, shelter or a light rug.


----------



## samlf (6 November 2014)

Surely everything we do with horses (and in life!) is on balance of risk. Clearly in this case the vet decided the risks of turning out clipped without a rug were outweighed by the risk of leaving the horse to continue through winter obese.

It's not something I'd do - I would stop feeding hay and only feed barley straw for a start. I would muzzle when out too, or restrict (but its too wet here to do that).

If I had tried all of the above, and exercised as much as possible. Then I would consider turning out naked with a trace clip. Although as the horse is already fully clipped, i'd then just turn out in a no fill to keep the rain off.


----------



## cptrayes (6 November 2014)

Wagtail said:



			IMO it would be cruel. Would a person walk around half naked 24/7 in this weather to lose weight? Do doctors recommend people do this? No they don't, because it would be unbearable.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry Wagtail,  but there is now  some medical guidance that it's a great way to lose weight.  Apparently, not only does it use calories but it changes fat into healthier brown fat to be cold. I recently saw advice to remove stubborn fat patches by putting ice packs on them.  My brother has routinely used winter outdoor swimming as a weight control device, and if I'm a bit porky I will deliberately under dress for a football match.


----------



## Bav (6 November 2014)

As others have said, I would under rug and possibly (if the sun is out like it has been here today) let them go without a rug and fully clipped in the day but not out at night.

I am guilty of doing this kind of thing with my own, portly horse (who is the fittest fat horse I've ever met) but only in the sense he has a low trace and is out in a LW. I can't really restrict his grazing due to ulcers. 
But then I'm the only person on my yard that is turning out in a no fill. Other liveries have cried at it being below 5 degrees and have stuck porky natives out in full neck HW's....so I'm probably going to hell already anyways.


----------



## Wagtail (6 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Sorry Wagtail,  but there is now  some medical guidance that it's a great way to lose weight.  Apparently, not only does it use calories but it changes fat into healthier brown fat to be cold. I recently saw advice to remove stubborn fat patches by putting ice packs on them.  My brother has routinely used winter outdoor swimming as a weight control device, and if I'm a bit porky I will deliberately under dress for a football match.
		
Click to expand...

But we are only getting cold for an hour or two. This horse is out 24/7. I really wouldn't object to putting a horse out without a rug clipped if it was only for a couple of hours, but not all night long. It's going to be miserable.


----------



## Pinkvboots (6 November 2014)

I would under rug a fully clipped horse but would not turn one out overnight naked, if you clip you rug the hair does also give protection from rain and the elements, taking it all away and not replacing that protection is just not fair.


----------



## Slightlyconfused (6 November 2014)

Bav said:



			As others have said, I would under rug and possibly (if the sun is out like it has been here today) let them go without a rug and fully clipped in the day but not out at night.

I am guilty of doing this kind of thing with my own, portly horse (who is the fittest fat horse I've ever met) but only in the sense he has a low trace and is out in a LW. I can't really restrict his grazing due to ulcers. 
But then I'm the only person on my yard that is turning out in a no fill. Other liveries have cried at it being below 5 degrees and have stuck porky natives out in full neck HW's....so I'm probably going to hell already anyways.
		
Click to expand...

Lol I will join you down in hell then  
The fully clipped elegant is only in a 100g fill rug, he is a little over weight but he is slowly slimming down.


----------



## dogatemysalad (6 November 2014)

Using energy to keep warm is a good way for humans and horses to burn calories. Horses are very efficient at regulating body temperature, so as long as it isn't left wet and shivering, it's fine.


----------



## NellRosk (6 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Sorry Wagtail,  but there is now  some medical guidance that it's a great way to lose weight.  Apparently, not only does it use calories but it changes fat into healthier brown fat to be cold. I recently saw advice to remove stubborn fat patches by putting ice packs on them.  My brother has routinely used winter outdoor swimming as a weight control device, and if I'm a bit porky I will deliberately under dress for a football match.
		
Click to expand...

Does getting a cold shower also help speed up your metabolism too or is that a load of tosh?


----------



## cptrayes (6 November 2014)

Wagtail said:



			But we are only getting cold for an hour or two. This horse is out 24/7. I really wouldn't object to putting a horse out without a rug clipped if it was only for a couple of hours, but not all night long. It's going to be miserable.
		
Click to expand...

What is the difference between being cold due to insufficient food wearing a rug, and cold due to insufficient food not wearing a rug?


A bellyful of food. 

Besides which, horses are great self regulators of heat and it will be mobilising fat to keep warm, it will not necessarily be cold (though I would check at midnight and early morning).

Do horses grow winter coats just to keep warm?  No, they grow winter coats because there is not enough food around in the winter to keep warm. If they have enough fat use up, there is no reason why they should be unacceptably cold.


----------



## Greylegs (6 November 2014)

WelshD said:



			I'm over 20 stone. I hope to goodness my doctor doesn't read this!!
		
Click to expand...

Well ... now you know what to do WelshD ...  strip down to your scanties and go and stand in a field til Christmas!!  You'll be in a size 8 in no time!!!!

....  but seriously ... this is a just ridiculous IMO. To the person who said they go cold water swimming or "under dress" for outdoor sports, well good for you. You can make your own decisions and subject yourself to uncomfortable levels of chill factor for short periods if you choose. But to deliberately allow your horse to get cold just to shift a bit of weight .... beggars belief to me. 

ETA ... just because a horse isn't actually shivering, does not mean it's not uncomfortably chilled.


----------



## cptrayes (6 November 2014)

NellRosk said:



			Does getting a cold shower also help speed up your metabolism too or is that a load of tosh?
		
Click to expand...

Too short a time, I would guess    try cold showering for an hour and see


----------



## cptrayes (6 November 2014)

Greylegs said:



			Well ... now you know what to do WelshD ...  strip down to your scanties and go and stand in a field til Christmas!!  You'll be in a size 8 in no time!!!!

....  but seriously ... this is a just ridiculous IMO. To the person who said they go cold water swimming or "under dress" for outdoor sports, well good for you. You can make your own decisions and subject yourself to uncomfortable levels of chill factor for short periods if you choose. But to deliberately allow your horse to get cold just to shift a bit of weight .... beggars belief to me. 

ETA ... just because a horse isn't actually shivering, does not mean it's not uncomfortably chilled.
		
Click to expand...

I don't believe that the horse will be cold. I believe that it will be doing what it is well adapted to doing, using up fat to keep warm. 

I would check it to make sure, but honestly guys, if you think it's that much of a problem how come any of you clip your horses bellies and leave them uncovered?


----------



## NellRosk (6 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Too short a time, I would guess    try cold showering for an hour and see 

Click to expand...

I shall report back


----------



## Wagtail (6 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			What is the difference between being cold due to insufficient food wearing a rug, and cold due to insufficient food not wearing a rug?


A bellyful of food. 

Besides which, horses are great self regulators of heat and it will be mobilising fat to keep warm, it will not necessarily be cold (though I would check at midnight and early morning).

Do horses grow winter coats just to keep warm?  No, they grow winter coats because there is not enough food around in the winter to keep warm. If they have enough fat use up, there is no reason why they should be unacceptably cold.
		
Click to expand...

I personally would rather diet to lose weight than be cold. I just do not agree with clipping all the coat off horses and then putting them out in this weather naked or with a no fill rug on. If the OP was feeding enough to make up for the amount of shivering the horse would do then it would cancel out the weight loss in any case. It is perfectly possible to provide a horse with constant trickle fed forage whilst it is losing weight and still keeping warm. My own mare was never without feed of some kind (soaked hay in trickle nets or soaked chopped straw) and she lost 130 kg over the space of 9 months. She was always warm and a good doer. She was actually too thin by the end, poor thing, and I would never have shaved that much weight off a non laminitis prone horse, but I am just saying that a horse can still lose weight even when they are never stood without forage. In the wild in winter they are designed to live on very slim pickings. Slim but a constant trickle. It is what nature intended. Nature didn't intend them to have their coats shaved off and to stand around shivering.


----------



## katherine1975 (6 November 2014)

My cob only had a 100g rug on all last winter with a full clip. This was not for weight loss. Anything thicker and she is too hot. I rug according to the weather and the horses needs, I would not like the thought of them being cold.


----------



## MerrySherryRider (6 November 2014)

NellRosk said:



			Does getting a cold shower also help speed up your metabolism too or is that a load of tosh?
		
Click to expand...

I think it does. I used to have a cold shower on winter mornings because it boosted my internal central heating. It was the best way to keep warm all day when out in the cold. Try it


----------



## cptrayes (6 November 2014)

Wagtail said:



			I personally would rather diet to lose weight than be cold. I just do not agree with clipping all the coat off horses and then putting them out in this weather naked or with a no fill rug on. If the OP was feeding enough to make up for the amount of shivering the horse would do then it would cancel out the weight loss in any case. It is perfectly possible to provide a horse with constant trickle fed forage whilst it is losing weight and still keeping warm. My own mare was never without feed of some kind (soaked hay in trickle nets or soaked chopped straw) and she lost 130 kg over the space of 9 months. She was always warm and a good doer. She was actually too thin by the end, poor thing, and I would never have shaved that much weight off a non laminitis prone horse, but I am just saying that a horse can still lose weight even when they are never stood without forage. In the wild in winter they are designed to live on very slim pickings. Slim but a constant trickle. It is what nature intended. Nature didn't intend them to have their coats shaved off and to stand around shivering.
		
Click to expand...

Wagtail I don't know about you but when I diet I get cold.  

No, nature did not intend them to have their coats shaved off and stand around in the cold. Nature intended them to starve all winter, lose a substantial amount of weight, and the weaker/thinner ones to die.


----------



## Wagtail (6 November 2014)

Each horse is different. We have a TB here that is the neshest horse I have ever come across. I found him shivering one evening in the summer when it had been raining, but it was 18 degrees! He was therefore wearing a medium light rug most nights and some days all through summer. All the others would have had heat stroke! My old mare was a very hot horse and so only had a heavyweight on if she was fully clipped and out in minus 5 or below. A medium no neck rug was sufficient the rest of the winter.


----------



## Stacy_W (6 November 2014)

I know someone who tried this with a New Forest pony.  Said pony only had a trace clip, but she spent all day, every day, standing at the very back of the field away from the herd looking totally miserable.  After a few weeks the owner decided to rug her again and she was back to her happy self.  

Under-rugging sounds like the best idea.  If we decide to remove their coat, their protection from the cold, then we should at least give something back.


----------



## Wagtail (6 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Wagtail I don't know about you but when I diet I get cold.  

No, nature did not intend them to have their coats shaved off and stand around in the cold. Nature intended them to starve all winter, lose a substantial amount of weight, and the weaker/thinner ones to die.
		
Click to expand...

I feel the cold very easily, lol. I only need to slim during the summer though because my work load is far less. I only have to look at a chip and I balloon . But in winter I can eat normally as I work it all off. But I always wrap up really warm.


----------



## ihatework (6 November 2014)

I don't think you can directly compare humans and horses, they have evolved completely differently. And even a fully clipped horse still has a layer of hair that regrows reasonably quickly.

No I wouldn't personally turn a fully clipped horse out overnight naked. But I would definitely steer towards significant under rugging than starvation. In reality I think there is a balance between the 2 to be had


----------



## blitznbobs (6 November 2014)

Humans didn't evolve to have central heating and wear clothes but we all seem to do it. If you want your horse to be uncomfortable - go for it - I'd rather increase work and reduce food...


----------



## Wagtail (6 November 2014)

I've had a lot of experience with getting horses to lose weight, not just with my mare but with numerous liveries over the years. By far the one most effective method is increasing exercise. If you do this with a controlled diet, the horse does not need to be at all hungry and the weight just falls off.


----------



## Supertrooper (6 November 2014)

That's where I struggle with mine as he's not allowed to be ridden/driven/lunged or long reined but I can walk him out in hand. He's out 24/7 unruggged with just a lite balancer, I'm weigh taping him fortnightly and he has some to lose over the winter


----------



## ChesnutsRoasting (6 November 2014)

Having had a fellow livery allow her horse to become "morbidly obese" - vets words - & subsequently suffer from severe laminitis, despite warnings by other liveries & then ignoring vets advice recommending a feed1.5% of fbodyweight per day, she decided, in her complete ignorance, that starvation was the best policy - it was hell to witness. I would definitely underrug if necessary but then I wouldn't have clipped the animal in the first place.


----------



## ester (6 November 2014)

Further to other posts I think plenty of people would be happy to turn out a trace/blanket clipped horse out naked, it is the absolutely nothing which is an issue. 

It is all very well saying that horses regulate their temperature well... a lot of their mechanisms for such homeostasis do involve the coat! 

More work/track system/less grass/more old soaked hay or feeding straw would all be on my list before I followed the vet's suggestion. It doesn't sound like all of these are already being done.


----------



## nuttychestnut (6 November 2014)

Sorry not read all of the replies. 
I used to clip and under rug a fattie for a few years, last winter due to her being out of work I didn't clipped. I left her naked without a rug and she lost a lot more weight than being clipped. 
Nothing else changed apart from having no work.


----------



## Jericho (6 November 2014)

ester said:



			not fully clipped no, I would perhaps be under rugging a bit like goldenstar said but not fully clipped and naked and out.
		
Click to expand...

This - my mare is overweight and I am purposefully not rugging in order her to get her to use her fat up a bit even though there was a frost here last. But she isnt clipped yet and I would put on a rain sheet if there is persistant rain. When clipped and unrugged the low temperatures are probably fine but not when wet and wind chill is factored in.


----------



## Wagtail (6 November 2014)

cptrayes, I have just watched a programme 7.30 on ITV1 about the effect of low temperatures on people. 18 degrees is the lowest temperature that is healthy for people to live in. At 16 degrees you start getting respiratory effects such as increase in asthma, bronchitis, pneumonia etc. Below that you get raised blood pressure. After only a couple of hours they had to stop the experiment on the reporter as he was showing raised blood pressure and mild hypothermia. So I am not convinced that people should be using getting cold as a way to lose weight. I don't know if there are any experiments on horses, but personally, I will not be using cold as a way to help my horses or myself to lose weight. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.


----------



## Goldenstar (6 November 2014)

Wagtail said:



			cptrayes, I have just watched a programme 7.30 on ITV1 about the effect of low temperatures on people. 18 degrees is the lowest temperature that is healthy for people to live in. At 16 degrees you start getting respiratory effects such as increase in asthma, bronchitis, pneumonia etc. Below that you get raised blood pressure. After only a couple of hours they had to stop the experiment on the reporter as he was showing raised blood pressure and mild hypothermia. So I am not convinced that people should be using getting cold as a way to lose weight. I don't know if there are any experiments on horses, but personally, I will not be using cold as a way to help my horses or myself to lose weight. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. 

Click to expand...

That's interesting because I can remember when was a kid an old stud groom in the village tells my friend and I that you must never turn away lame hunters and let them get cold because they came up the next season with bad winds .


----------



## Jenni&Ditty (6 November 2014)

Well if I was fat I wouldn't want to stand in a field and shiver to death to make me thinner...


----------



## eggs (6 November 2014)

Personally I would follow the advice of my vet rather than a bunch of people on a forum.  However I would ask if they (the vet) were really being serious with that suggestion.


----------



## cptrayes (6 November 2014)

Wagtail said:



			cptrayes, I have just watched a programme 7.30 on ITV1 about the effect of low temperatures on people. 18 degrees is the lowest temperature that is healthy for people to live in. At 16 degrees you start getting respiratory effects such as increase in asthma, bronchitis, pneumonia etc. Below that you get raised blood pressure. After only a couple of hours they had to stop the experiment on the reporter as he was showing raised blood pressure and mild hypothermia. So I am not convinced that people should be using getting cold as a way to lose weight. I don't know if there are any experiments on horses, but personally, I will not be using cold as a way to help my horses or myself to lose weight. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. 

Click to expand...

We have nothing to disagree about  

No-one was suggesting that humans should stay in the cold for hours at a time.  The suggestion is short swims in cold water, or ice packs direct to problem areas.

The human research does not, I think, apply to horses, who have (I understand)  much more effective systems than humans for regulating their body temperature.


----------



## maccachic (6 November 2014)

I don't rug my tubbies over winter but I would not remove their coat and do so - the coat is part of the regulation process by removing I believe is being cruel as the horses can use it natural defences to improve its situation.

The analogy with humans is all very well but how many stay out all day and night - most would be back inside to heating to warm up - you want weight loss there isn't a shortcut get moving and eat less.

Someone mentioned horses were designed to starve over winter - this is ridiculous starvation kills horses and not just the weak horses are trickle feeder the extra over the summer months adds fat which helps with the limited calories over winter but horse's were always required to keep the movement of forage going thru their systems, winter they just have to work hard for it.


----------



## PStarfish (6 November 2014)

My slightly tubby but not obese mare has a chaser style clip. She has a rainsheet on if wet. Is naked the rest of the time. She's in overnight. She is naturally a warm horse but I wouldn't consider leaving her naked if she had a full clip. Yes I may turn out naked for a short period on a crisp sunny day to allow a good roll and scratch but would otherwise put at least a sheet on to protect from the breeze and any shower that may creep up.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (6 November 2014)

No, I wouldn't.

One January, I bought an obese Draft mare, she had been clipped out by her previous owner and fed haylage and hard feed - some sort of local tack shop's coarse mix.

I was desperate to get her weight down, so turned her out by day in a rainsheet, which she kept on most nights in the stable.  I stopped all hard feed and gave her a measured amount of hay, rather than ad-lib.  As her coat grew back, she was turned out on good days without the rug, of course.  Over 2 yrs her weight gradually went back down to a healthy weight and because her weight-loss had been managed properly, she did not develop any further problems, associated with the management.


----------



## Highlands (6 November 2014)

I might clip out but agree under rug, hair has to stand on end to trap air for warmth, if no hair it can't so therefore rug needed. I would be incline to use lighter combo or rain sheet if better weather. Worry me about skin complaints.


----------



## blitznbobs (6 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			We have nothing to disagree about  

No-one was suggesting that humans should stay in the cold for hours at a time.  The suggestion is short swims in cold water, or ice packs direct to problem areas.

The human research does not, I think, apply to horses, who have (I understand)  much more effective systems than humans for regulating their body temperature.
		
Click to expand...

Why would horses have better systems than humans we evolved in similar climates ... At least modern horses did... And humans are a far more successful species...


----------



## Pearlsasinger (6 November 2014)

Supertrooper said:



			That's where I struggle with mine as he's not allowed to be ridden/driven/lunged or long reined but I can walk him out in hand. He's out 24/7 unruggged with just a lite balancer, I'm weigh taping him fortnightly and he has some to lose over the winter
		
Click to expand...

I would ditch the balancer, Shetlands are evolved to eat next to nothing over the winter and remain healthy.  He really doesn't need those calories.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (6 November 2014)

blitznbobs said:



			Why would horses have better systems than humans we evolved in similar climates ... At least modern horses did... And humans are a far more successful species...
		
Click to expand...



Because horses have not evolved to wear clothes and they have a completely different digestive system


----------



## blitznbobs (6 November 2014)

But we didn't evolve to wear clothes and horses evolved to have a fur coat...


----------



## MileAMinute (6 November 2014)

A musing for the cold shower theory....I 'cold hose' my legs most nights with the shower. I have nerve damage in my legs and they burn. I find cold water helps (even if it's psychological). I note no weight loss on either leg!


----------



## Pearlsasinger (6 November 2014)

blitznbobs said:



			But we didn't evolve to wear clothes and horses evolved to have a fur coat...
		
Click to expand...

Yes,  we did evolve to wear clothes - that is why we only have minimal hair on our bodies.  Horses physiology is completely different from ours, their digestive systems have a direct impact on the heat of their bodies, that is not true of humans.  You are quite right that horses have evolved to grow a fur coat, that and the digestive system are meant to work together to regulate the body temp.


----------



## amandaco2 (7 November 2014)

I wouldnt put a fully clipped horse out naked. Exercise and low calorie intake to get kg off them.


----------



## cptrayes (7 November 2014)

blitznbobs said:



			Why would horses have better systems than humans we evolved in similar climates ... At least modern horses did... And humans are a far more successful species...
		
Click to expand...

What an odd question. You might as well ask why do horses run faster than humans. Of course different animals can have different ways of managing things.

Can we all please remember when this thread has run a few more weeks, that it was started in the warmest driest autumn on record?

OP,   tell your friend to follow her vet's advice.


----------



## blitznbobs (7 November 2014)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Yes,  we did evolve to wear clothes - that is why we only have minimal hair on our bodies.  Horses physiology is completely different from ours, their digestive systems have a direct impact on the heat of their bodies, that is not true of humans.  You are quite right that horses have evolved to grow a fur coat, that and the digestive system are meant to work together to regulate the body temp.
		
Click to expand...

 There are lots of theories about the hairless thing on humans - the most convincing in my book is the ' aquatic ape' theory not many of the, are to do with clothes. We lost the hair far before we adopted clothes...


----------



## cptrayes (7 November 2014)

Pearlsasinger said:



			Yes,  we did evolve to wear clothes - that is why we only have minimal hair on our bodies.  Horses physiology is completely different from ours, their digestive systems have a direct impact on the heat of their bodies, that is not true of humans.  You are quite right that horses have evolved to grow a fur coat, that and the digestive system are meant to work together to regulate the body temp.
		
Click to expand...

The digestive system does not change depending on the thickness of the horses coat. The horse regulates its temperature using the digestive system as a heat source regardless of what thickness of coat it has on. You can get very, very cold days in spring after the coat is already shed. They do not work 'together' as such, the horse simply sweats if it's too hot and mobilises fat if it's too cold.


----------



## Wagtail (7 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			What an odd question. You might as well ask why do horses run faster than humans. Of course different animals can have different ways of managing things.

Can we all please remember when this thread has run a few more weeks, that it was started in the warmest driest autumn on record?

OP,   tell your friend to follow her vet's advice.
		
Click to expand...

This thread was started on the day where we had had a frost overnight. It has been bitterly cold and windy here in Lincolnshire. Yes, last week was very mild but the past few days have been bitter. It has been slightly milder here over night due to the heavy rain.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (7 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Can we all please remember when this thread has run a few more weeks, that it was started in the warmest driest autumn on record?

.
		
Click to expand...

well, maybe in Devon or wherever you live it was. We've had mild days, we've also had temps of 2 degrees, 70mph winds on 4 or 5 occasions in the last 2 weeks alone, windchills of -7 and biblical rain leading to flooding and landslides. Quite often the temps have swung from 2-12 during the daytime depending on how wind direction has changed, sometimes its happened overnight.


----------



## Limit (7 November 2014)

Having read your post, I think I would be changing my vet. Getting weight off a horse is one thing but now the weather is really changing making it downright miserable is something else.


----------



## cptrayes (7 November 2014)

Limit said:



			Having read your post, I think I would be changing my vet. Getting weight off a horse is one thing but now the weather is really changing making it downright miserable is something else.
		
Click to expand...

The vet did not tell her to do this when the weather was like it is today!


----------



## cptrayes (7 November 2014)

NovemberQuestion said:



			Would you turn a fully clipped horse out (horse is a very very good doer) over winter over night on a dry day/evening to help it lose weight? If it was raining however then only a rain sheet and nothing more ? A vet has advised this.
		
Click to expand...


THIS is what the vet advised. No rug if dry, light rug if wet.  My experience is that horses are not bothered by cold, only by cold in combination with wind and/or rain.


----------



## abbijay (7 November 2014)

Oh god, I'm one of those dreadful people going to hell! My horse runs extremely hot and if he gets too warm he rubs himself to pieces. He is currently full clipped and out in a 70g rug! And he still sweats lightly in that if it's not a vile day. I'm on a fairly big yard (30+ horses) and mine was the last to have a rug on overnight, that was only after he was clipped. I think we anthropomorphise horses way too much, just because we want a thick coat and wooly jumper on doesn't mean our buddy needs one too! 
And what difference does it make if the horse is out in the daytime or night time? I didn't know temperature scale changed when the sun goes down...


----------



## Wagtail (7 November 2014)

abbijay said:



			Oh god, I'm one of those dreadful people going to hell! My horse runs extremely hot and if he gets too warm he rubs himself to pieces. He is currently full clipped and out in a 70g rug! And he still sweats lightly in that if it's not a vile day. I'm on a fairly big yard (30+ horses) and mine was the last to have a rug on overnight, that was only after he was clipped. I think we anthropomorphise horses way too much, just because we want a thick coat and wooly jumper on doesn't mean our buddy needs one too! 
And what difference does it make if the horse is out in the daytime or night time? I didn't know temperature scale changed when the sun goes down...
		
Click to expand...

Night time is always colder than day time. :confused3: All horses are different. You obviously have a very hot horse, and besides there is a huge difference between the warmth offered by a 70g rug and a no fill rug or being naked.


----------



## montanna (7 November 2014)

abbijay said:



			And what difference does it make if the horse is out in the daytime or night time? I didn't know temperature scale changed when the sun goes down...
		
Click to expand...

What a bizarre thing to say - of course it's colder overnight than during the day!


----------



## Spring Feather (7 November 2014)

abbijay said:



			And what difference does it make if the horse is out in the daytime or night time? I didn't know temperature scale changed when the sun goes down...
		
Click to expand...

Do you live in a cave?


----------



## abbijay (7 November 2014)

montanna said:



			What a bizarre thing to say - of course it's colder overnight than during the day!
		
Click to expand...

Not necessarily! It TENDS to be colder at night but there are days where it is actually warmer at night, hence my questioning it.


----------



## ester (7 November 2014)

I don't think anyone was suggesting a 70g rug meant you were going to hell!!? nothing wrong with that. 

And if the advice was given a couple of weeks ago when warmer and wasn't intended for when it was freezing over night how much weight did the vet expect the horse to lose in that time!? I just find it very odd not to suggest leaving rug off when dry/sunny and under rugging the rest of the time.

I think it is fair to stick with trends when suggesting there is a difference between day and night, we aren't talking specific days and nights here!


----------



## Well I Never (7 November 2014)

Can I just say that its interesting that November14 hasn't shared anything on this thread other than what they have taken from another forum.
They haven't graced us with an opinion, but it seems an act to pick on someone indirectly for asking for advice.
If you care to read the original post from another forum (whom is aware of this one it appears) the OP said she would rug in wet weather and leave out naked if dry.
We don't know what shelter is available, how protected the field is from the elements, or even if they are in the UK!


----------



## honetpot (7 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			What is the difference between being cold due to insufficient food wearing a rug, and cold due to insufficient food not wearing a rug?


A bellyful of food. 

Besides which, horses are great self regulators of heat and it will be mobilising fat to keep warm, it will not necessarily be cold (though I would check at midnight and early morning).

Do horses grow winter coats just to keep warm?  No, they grow winter coats because there is not enough food around in the winter to keep warm. If they have enough fat use up, there is no reason why they should be unacceptably cold.
		
Click to expand...

This^
 The horse uses about 80% of the energy it consumes to keep warm, in warmer weather the chances are its always going to expend less energy than it consumes, with rugging in winter we are making the horse use even less energy to keep warm so it does not loose the weight it metabolism it has adapted to loose so when the spring grass starts to come through it is already overweight for the time of year.
  We are humans, we evolved lost most of our body hair and now wear clothes, when I was a child we had no central heating and there was ice on the inside of my bedroom windows in winter, we wore more clothes indoors, I now have central heating and I can walk round in my indies in winter if I want .Horses did not evolve to wear clothes of any sort, its a man or women made thing, in several parts of the world day and night temperatures  vary by 10+C and horses cope. Me must not confuse our metabolism with that of the horse, as far as I know I have heard of no horses that live in caves of their own choice and have fashioned woven rugs. A clipped horse or an overly thin horse or human will grow extra body hair if cold 
  Our winters are generally milder, I find that horses are more likely to feel cold in prolonged wet weather, when they are unable to dry their coat, cold temperatures do not seem to bother them so as long as the clipped horse is not shivering and has plenty of forage it would not bother me. If the horse is starting to show signs of feeling cold its easy to bring it in, dry it off and put a rug on it, unfortunately a bout of laminitis is not such a quick fix.


----------



## paulineh (7 November 2014)

No no I would not do that at all. It is like having a fat person in vest and pants and having no heating on in the house.

Diet, exercise and if need be a light weight rug but would not full clip without rugging up.


----------



## Honey08 (7 November 2014)

Well I Never said:



			Can I just say that its interesting that November14 hasn't shared anything on this thread other than what they have taken from another forum.
They haven't graced us with an opinion, but it seems an act to pick on someone indirectly for asking for advice.
If you care to read the original post from another forum (whom is aware of this one it appears) the OP said she would rug in wet weather and leave out naked if dry.
We don't know what shelter is available, how protected the field is from the elements, or even if they are in the UK!
		
Click to expand...

Does it matter?  They've just posted facts and sparked a general discussion that has been quite interesting.  They've not grumbled about the other poster or given a link or identity, to me that's a good thing.  You're the one offering links that could identify..


----------



## Wagtail (7 November 2014)

honetpot said:



			This^
 Horses did not evolve to wear clothes of any sort, its a man or women made thing, in several parts of the world day and night temperatures  vary by 10+C and horses cope.
		
Click to expand...

But clipping is also a manmade thing. I have no problems with people not rugging horses... unless they are clipped. If you clip a horse you have removed their mechanism for controlling their temperature. A clipped horse will not grow its hair any faster if it is cold. The only exception to this are the ugly guard hairs you sometimes see on clipped horses. These are stimulated by the horse getting too cold on a regular basis, but are useless in keeping them warm.


----------



## kez81 (7 November 2014)

Whilst the weather is still mild ( above 8 regress at night) I would be happy turning out a fully clipped horse 24/7 unrugged if a vet advised it, provided I could get there quickly to pop a rain sheet on if it did start raining. Once rain comes I would be putting a rain sheet on and nothing else until I seriously thought something warmer was needed.  I under rug mine anyway as would rather they kept themselves warm moving about than just stood in one place eating and getting fat. I also like my horses to come out of winter looking thin and ready for spring.


----------



## Wagtail (7 November 2014)

It is a fallacy horses move around to keep warm. They don't. In the coldest and wettest conditions they stand absolutely still, tails to the wind.


----------



## MPop (7 November 2014)

Wow! What a response this thread has got!

I am the owner of the horse in question - I'm not quite sure how this thread appeared over here but I guess it's good to get a good variety of opinions. 

I don't really want to go into a great deal of detail, but I would say that my horse means the world to me and it's not easy trying to balance the needs of the horse, with his weight. I am a great believer in letting a horse live as naturally as possible. I don't want to stable him overnight, and I don't want to turn him out into a small 'fatty' paddock on his own. He is in a large field and is muzzled constantly between March and late September. The field does have too much grass in it for my horses needs (which I realise is the route of the problem), but I don't have the control over the size of the fields or the horses on it. Plus I want to stay on this yard.  

My horse came to me as a condition score of 5 and after 2 years of battling his weight I have got this down to a 4. He has no hard feed, is ridden everyday but even with the muzzling and all the exercise I can manage, I still cannot shift the fat pads from his bum and neck. God knows, I have tried! While it would be the ideal solution to have him out on poorer grazing with a herd of friends, this isn't possible for us. Not every option is available so we cannot always offer the perfect solution. 

As the weather was so mild in September I fully clipped him (as he was dripping with sweat just standing still) and turned him out naked. As it was 15 degrees overnight he coped with this fine. I checked him late at night and first thing in the morning and he was toasty warm. His coat grew back quickly and I reclipped in late September. The weather was still very mild (with no rain) so I checked him very carefully and turned him out naked again. He was fine, never seemed cold, never standing by the gate, still difficult as ever to catch! The field has hedges on 3 sides so there is lots of natural shelter for him. 

Last week the vet came for his jabs and was concerned that he still hadn't dropped below a condition score of 4. He was worried that this would have a negative impact on his joints (as he is a very big horse) and that he risked laminitis. We talked at length about his care and the set up of the yard, and he agreed that my horse is better left out in the field and as he had coped very well with being turned out naked so far, his advice was to try and increase his metabolic rate by keeping him colder over winter. He explained that as long as there is lots of forage in the field (which there is) my horse will keep constantly eating which will keep him warm from the inside. The digestion of forage in the gut will act as an internal central heating system and heat him from the inside out. However, as we have removed the outer layer of heat control (i.e. his coat) his metabolic system will have to work harder to warm him whole body.  He is a very hardy cob - not a thin skinned TB. 

Now of course I am monitoring the situation carefully and of course I am not going to fully clip him and turn him out in freezing cold night and while it is pouring with rain. I am not cruel and I am not stupid.  I am concerned about him being cold and I am worried about him. I worried about him both being cold and suffering, and also not losing weight and developing problems in spring. There is no easy solution. 

I originally posted about this because I was upset that the vet told me my horse was still far too fat and listed all the terrible consequences.  Sometimes in life you just need to vent and the internet is a great place to write down how you feel and have people 'listen' to what you have to say. I will always take the collective advice from my vet and my very knowledgeable yard manager and riding instructor. While it's great to hear what people on internet forums have to say, with all due respect you do not know my horse or the circumstances. 

So thanks for all your input, but please don't label me as a cruel, stupid and uncaring owner for wanting the best for my horse. I will never see him suffer but at the same time I will listen to a very experienced vet who also wants the best for my horse.


----------



## Honey08 (7 November 2014)

I don't think any of us would label you cruel knowing the full story.  You very much sound as though you weighed everything up and went off what more experienced people advised and are monitoring the situation. It's just interesting to discuss.

For what it's worth, we had a weigh bridge at our yard and one lady with a Clydesdale got scored  very highly.  The horse lives out, is fit and works hard five or six days a week, yet scored 4.  My ISH scored 3 and yet is not fit enough to work as hard.  I thought the lady doing the score was quite hard on her.  A heavy horse is always going to have a rounder bottom etc.

I had a similar discussion with my dog vet.  One of our labs is a heavy type and weighs a lot.  The vet thought she should weigh less, yet I can easily see her waist and ribs when she moves.  The other lab is under his advised weight, yet to me looks fatter and has less weight.  It is a totally different type to the bigger lab..


----------



## cptrayes (7 November 2014)

Mpop,  you're doing fine, and plenty off is thought so before even reading your very thoughtful post.


----------



## MPop (7 November 2014)

Thank you Honey08. It's so hard to balance his needs. I have been working so hard on getting him fit and healthy over the last year. We have been doing so much jumping and faster work, I really thought that we were making progress, so when the vet told me that he was still far too fat I was so disappointed. He has a huge apple bottom, and a gutter. He pressed his bum and as it sprang back out at he explained that this is pure fat and not the muscle I thought. 

I know that I am striving for perfection, but I just want him muscled and not fat. The vet warned of joint problems if he doesn't drop at least 50kg and this scared me. My horse is only 10, but any talk of shortening his working life and making him in pain makes me so scared. I would do anything to give him eternal life and I just want to do what is best for him. He is everything to me.


----------



## Wagtail (7 November 2014)

Honey08 said:



			I don't think any of us would label you cruel knowing the full story.  You very much sound as though you weighed everything up and went off what more experienced people advised and are monitoring the situation. It's just interesting to discuss.

For what it's worth, we had a weigh bridge at our yard and one lady with a Clydesdale got scored  very highly.  The horse lives out, is fit and works hard five or six days a week, yet scored 4.  My ISH scored 3 and yet is not fit enough to work as hard.  I thought the lady doing the score was quite hard on her.  A heavy horse is always going to have a rounder bottom etc.
		
Click to expand...

Agree. My mare still had a slight apple bum even when she was really skinny (probably around a 2 out of 5 due to keeping her thin because of laminitis). Some vets are very blinkered when looking at heavier built horses.


----------



## Moya_999 (7 November 2014)

NovemberQuestion said:



			Would you turn a fully clipped horse out (horse is a very very good doer) over winter over night on a dry day/evening to help it lose weight? If it was raining however then only a rain sheet and nothing more ? A vet has advised this.
		
Click to expand...

Never would consider this - soak hay change feed to light cut down intake calories.  Never freeze his butt just to lose weight seems very unfair to me.


----------



## 3Beasties (7 November 2014)

MPop said:



			Thank you Honey08. It's so hard to balance his needs. I have been working so hard on getting him fit and healthy over the last year. We have been doing so much jumping and faster work, I really thought that we were making progress, so when the vet told me that he was still far too fat I was so disappointed. He has a huge apple bottom, and a gutter. He pressed his bum and as it sprang back out at he explained that this is pure fat and not the muscle I thought. 

I know that I am striving for perfection, but I just want him muscled and not fat. The vet warned of joint problems if he doesn't drop at least 50kg and this scared me. My horse is only 10, but any talk of shortening his working life and making him in pain makes me so scared. I would do anything to give him eternal life and I just want to do what is best for him. He is everything to me.
		
Click to expand...

Mpop - How refreshing to hear of an obese horse owner that is working hard and taking vets advise to reduce the weight of your horse. I have seen some really obese  horses lately with owners that are not doing anything to change it. I wish they could understand the health problems they are opening their horses up to 

Just a question - Is he still muzzled? From the sounds of it it sounds like the muzzle came off in September, if so, I would put it back on, even if just overnight. My Section A is still muzzled and will be all Winter probably. I would rather she wasn't but needs must!

I'm not entering into the rug or not debate as you seem to be taking all precautions to ensure he stays healthy and doesn't get too cold!


----------



## kez81 (7 November 2014)

Wagtail said:



			It is a fallacy horses move around to keep warm. They don't. In the coldest and wettest conditions they stand absolutely still, tails to the wind.
		
Click to expand...

Yes they stand still tails to the wind to conserve heat in worst weather but their body needs fuel aka grass to produce the energy reserves to maintain warmth so at some point they must move about to search for food to keep warm. I would rather encourage the foraging than rug up as personally i think as long as there is adequete shelter, their own coat is enough for 90% of horses and an awful lot of people rug with this weight or that when a rain sheet if anything at all, would be sufficient. If horses are clipped then yes they will need warmer rugging but still i do think from what i see locally, there does seem to be a tendancy to over do it. Also I think an awful lot of people are afraid of letting their horses get winter thin for fear of being judged by other people when actually their horses would probably benefit from it come spring but that's just my opinion.


----------



## Wagtail (7 November 2014)

Mpop, you are very obviously a caring owner who wants the best for her horse. The OP was asking for opinions on a given situation and people have voiced those opinions. So any reference to cruelty was not being aimed at you personally. IMO and experience, vets very often get things wrong and you must be guided by your own instincts and knowledge of your own horse when following (or not) any advice. Many bigger boned breeds of horses will have apple bums even when an ideal weight. But it seems you have everything well in hand and you are sure your horse is comfortable and happy. Good luck with the weight loss. Just one more thing - you say he is no longer muzzled but yet is out with too much grass. Could you muzzle him for part of the time? Would that be an option?


----------



## Wagtail (7 November 2014)

kez81 said:



			Yes they stand still tails to the wind to conserve heat in worst weather but their body needs fuel aka grass to produce the energy reserves to maintain warmth so at some point they must move about to search for food to keep warm. I would rather encourage the foraging than rug up as personally i think as long as there is adequete shelter, their own coat is enough for 90% of horses and an awful lot of people rug with this weight or that when a rain sheet if anything at all, would be sufficient. If horses are clipped then yes they will need warmer rugging but still i do think from what i see locally, there does seem to be a tendancy to over do it. Also I think an awful lot of people are afraid of letting their horses get winter thin for fear of being judged by other people when actually their horses would probably benefit from it come spring but that's just my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

I agree that many people over rug and that is just as bad as letting your horse freeze IMO. The problem I have is when we clip the whole coat off and then not rug.


----------



## Honey08 (7 November 2014)

The friend with the Clydesdale I mentioned trying to lose weight clips hers and leaves him without rugs in winter, but he has a trace, bib or chaser so that his back still has protection from the wind and rain.  He lives on a hill in the Pennines but can access the stable yard if he wants (very rarely does, more for flies in summer..).


----------



## MPop (7 November 2014)

Yes, I did take his muzzle off when I first clipped him in September. I was worried that he wasn't getting enough to eat to keep himself warm when he was clipped, but in hindsight I wish that I had kept it on. However, while he has put on a tiny bit since then (perhaps 10kg on the weight tape) this has not been hugely significant. We seemed to reach a stable weight over the summer where he wouldn't put on any more weight, but he wouldn't lose it either. 

I will think about putting the muzzle back on, but as the weather has turned very cold and wet, I want him to 'fire up' that internal furnace and get the forage inside his body. I worry that he won't get enough food to keep himself warm.

Thank you all for being so welcoming by the way. I expected to have eggs thrown at me!


----------



## Orangehorse (7 November 2014)

When I bought my horse as a 2 year old, he had been fully clipped out in December and then turned out in the field for the rest of the winter.  There was a field shelter.  He survived.  His coat grew cat hairs.


----------



## Honey08 (7 November 2014)

We've run out of eggs.

Contrary to popular belief, a lot of people do just like discussing things nicely on here and don't like upsetting others.


----------



## MPop (7 November 2014)

Wagtail said:



			I agree that many people over rug and that is just as bad as letting your horse freeze IMO. The problem I have is when we clip the whole coat off and then not rug.
		
Click to expand...

I would only turn him out naked on a very mild night (like it was during the whole of September), or if it was colder and his clip had half grown out. For the last 3 nights he has worn a light weight rug. I'm not actually sure if this is a rainsheet or a weighted rug (don't know too much about rugs), but it can't be more than 70g at most. 

I'm not sure what I will do going forward, take each day as it comes I think.


----------



## Wagtail (7 November 2014)

MPop said:



			I would only turn him out naked on a very mild night (like it was during the whole of September), or if it was colder and his clip had half grown out. For the last 3 nights he has worn a light weight rug. I'm not actually sure if this is a rainsheet or a weighted rug (don't know too much about rugs), but it can't be more than 70g at most. 

I'm not sure what I will do going forward, take each day as it comes I think.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, I wasn't aiming my comment at you as you had already explained your horse will only be naked on mild dry days. You know your horse and I do not. Some horses are 'hot' horses, particularly if they have a good layer of blubber.


----------



## Patchworkpony (7 November 2014)

How unkind that would be!


----------



## MPop (8 November 2014)

3Beasties said:



			Mpop - How refreshing to hear of an obese horse owner that is working hard and taking vets advise to reduce the weight of your horse. I have seen some really obese  horses lately with owners that are not doing anything to change it. I wish they could understand the health problems they are opening their horses up to 

Click to expand...

That's a really lovely comment and one I don't hear very often. My friends are very kind and tell me that he is not that fat, but I know that he is. I would never forgive myself if my vets warnings turned into reality because I did not take action when I was warned to. Unless you have owned a good doer like my horse, I think that it can be impossible to understand how hard he can be to manage.


----------



## cptrayes (8 November 2014)

Another who thinks you are a super owner here Mpop


----------



## Amymay (8 November 2014)

NovemberQuestion said:



			Would you turn a fully clipped horse out (horse is a very very good doer) over winter over night on a dry day/evening to help it lose weight? If it was raining however then only a rain sheet and nothing more ? A vet has advised this.
		
Click to expand...

Nope.


----------



## NovemberQuestion (8 November 2014)

This thread was never intended to be a 'pick on someone' from another forum. 

Yes the details were taken from that thread, but it was merely to ask others opinions on clipping and turning out in a rainsheet and/or no rug for weightloss that was all. 

I haven't offered an opinion and said 'Oh my gosh - SO cruel - WHO would do that ?! or anything else it was merely to ask other opinions. We can all see the horse is clearly well looked after by it's owner. 

My apologies MPop if you thought for any moment if you thought this was aimed directly at the care of your horse, it wasn't.


----------



## Amymay (8 November 2014)

NovemberQuestion said:



			My apologies MPop if you thought for any moment if you thought this was aimed directly at the care of your horse, it wasn't.
		
Click to expand...

So which horse was it aimed at?


----------



## Honey08 (8 November 2014)

It wasn't aimed at anyone, was it?  It was all written very generally, I thought.  It was only the later poster that had told everyone it was on another forum and, I expect, told MPop..  If the comments by the  OP had been negative or there had been pictures of someone else's horse I would think differently.


----------



## Well I Never (8 November 2014)

If it was general the op wouldn't have added in snippets about them, such as on vets advice, been muzzled. The only thing they altered was the gender to she.

I didn't inform the owner I don't know them, but the fact they felt the need to join proves its not just a general let's start a discussion about rugging.


----------



## Crugeran Celt (8 November 2014)

You would assume that as the horse has a full clip it is being exercised a lot to warrant the clip therefore you would think weight wouldn't really be an issue. If it is not being exercised to the extent of needing a full clip then why do it?


----------



## Honey08 (8 November 2014)

The OP did say her post was based on MPop but not meant to be picky.  I think it spurred a good general discussion, one people can learn things from perhaps.  I don't know what spurred MPop to join, and they were worried they were going to get ripped to bits initially, but they seemed fine last night, and gave more details that expanded the picture.  I think that the "snippets" were just extra information replying to things that other posters had said.  I thought they were all pretty neutral and it wasn't obvious what OP's opinion was. They didn't seem opinionated or nasty to me.


----------



## cptrayes (8 November 2014)

Crugeran Celt said:



			You would assume that as the horse has a full clip it is being exercised a lot to warrant the clip therefore you would think weight wouldn't really be an issue. If it is not being exercised to the extent of needing a full clip then why do it?
		
Click to expand...


To help it lose weight without starving it.


----------



## Amymay (8 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			To help it lose weight without starving it.
		
Click to expand...

You don't need to starve it. Simply don't clip it. Turn it out 24/7 in a field with good shelter and feed it hay as appropriate. 

Turning a fully clipped horse out without any protection is an awful thing to do, and quite frankly down right cruel. Any vet that recommended that would be no vet of mine.


----------



## Crugeran Celt (8 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			To help it lose weight without starving it.
		
Click to expand...

I don't really understand why they would give it a full clip as if they just turned it out unclipped but naked it would lose weight anyway and then it would not be a cold miserable horse. Mine live out all winter unrugged, not clipped and ad lib hay but they still lose their summer 'grass' bellies.


----------



## Well I Never (8 November 2014)

I think its great that the OP was so inspired by a thread they located elsewhere, that they felt the need to join here.
 You could still be viewed as a troll with only 4 posts all on this thread.


----------



## doriangrey (8 November 2014)

Isn't this about metabolizing fat in response to a lower skin temperature?  How would that work on a horse with a full coat?  Nobody has said the horse will be turned out without protection especially in bad weather, so yes I would do it on the advice of a vet rather than set the horse up for all the sorts of problems it will have later in life if left obese.  This horse could be borderline/insulin resistant (especially as he's hanging on to the fat pads) and sometimes drastic measures need to be taken to address this.  Owner of the horse seems to have it in hand with the collaboration of the vet - better dealing with it now than flinging meds at it later in life.


----------



## Wagtail (8 November 2014)

In all my years with horses, I have known vets to be wrong as often as they are right.


----------



## Orangehorse (8 November 2014)

As someone who owned a horse that was clipped out and turned out with no rug - not by me! - I think it is unkind.

If you need the horse to loose weight, turn it out unclipped and unrugged and limit the amount of hay.  Up until Christmas they don't loose much weight as there is still plenty of grass, but if the temperature drops the grass will stop growing, and they will loose weight between Christmas and before the grass starts growing again.

This is obviously a desperate measure if the horse is very overweight.


----------



## NovemberQuestion (8 November 2014)

Well I Never said:



			I think its great that the OP was so inspired by a thread they located elsewhere, that they felt the need to join here.
 You could still be viewed as a troll with only 4 posts all on this thread.
		
Click to expand...

I could be but I hope I'm not. I've attempted to remain neutral in all my post. 

If your first sentance is meant sarcastically then despite me trying to be neutral,  you seem keen to start an argument ... !


----------



## Inthesticks (8 November 2014)

I have to say, my own opinion is you are only considering options that suit you, ie clipping out and no rug unless wet/cold

To reduce the weight of a horse, reduce it calories, ie his grazing, yet you do not want to do this for 2 reasons 

1. he will miss his friends in a 'fatty' paddock... no room to move... answer: make it large enough and don't you think he will miss his friends for a lot longer being on box rest for lami? 

2. You dont want to leave this yard, and 'you have to make the most of what you have and adapt' answer: if you care for your horse and cant reduce his grazing to an acceptable level at your current yard, you need to move him

Obviously the easy answer for you is freeze the fat off because it suits you and you don't have to move yards or reduce his grazing like 90% of experienced owners of good doers, yes... really... some other people are experienced in dealing with good doers too..

Too me you do not sound experienced enough to challenge your terrible vets advice, which we all have had to do over the years, they can be wrong as other people have said and you have to know when to follow advice and when to ask for a second opinion


----------



## cptrayes (8 November 2014)

Feeding lower calories than the horse needs is starving it, however slowly.

This thread is positively drowning in anthropomorphism!


----------



## Palindrome (8 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Feeding lower calories than the horse needs is starving it, however slowly.
		
Click to expand...

No, starving is not satisfying his hunger, you can feed enough volume so he is not hungry but reduce the calories (by feeding oat straw or/and soaked hay).


----------



## cptrayes (8 November 2014)

Palindrome said:



			No, starving is not satisfying his hunger, you can feed enough volume so he is not hungry but reduce the calories (by feeding oat straw or/and soaked hay).
		
Click to expand...

The owner has already said she can't do this.  I am baffled by the people who would rather see the horse in a muzzle than without a rug on a dry night.


----------



## NovemberQuestion (8 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			The owner has already said she can't do this.  I am baffled by the people who would rather see the horse in a muzzle than without a rug on a dry night.
		
Click to expand...

Me too.


----------



## doriangrey (8 November 2014)

If he's cold he will use up the excess fat to become warm which is the point or am I missing something here?  He will have a rain sheet to protect him from wet and that'll take off the wind-chill.  As far as I'm reading it, the horse is more at risk from worse problems in future if this isn't addressed now?


----------



## zigzag (8 November 2014)

Well my vet has advised the same for our pony as she isn't losing weight ... clip her leave out and no rugs, though did suggest rubbing some oil/Vaseline across her back to protect the sin from rain...


----------



## ChesnutsRoasting (8 November 2014)

Crugeran Celt said:



			You would assume that as the horse has a full clip it is being exercised a lot to warrant the clip therefore you would think weight wouldn't really be an issue. If it is not being exercised to the extent of needing a full clip then why do it?
		
Click to expand...

Quite right. Ridiculous to clip an overweight horse unless its in hard work or sweats up easily. I cannot believe a horse in hard work can be obese. Better to have left the coat on & follow a feeding regime suitable for a laminitic.


----------



## Goldenstar (9 November 2014)

Wagtail said:



			In all my years with horses, I have known vets to be wrong as often as they are right. 

Click to expand...

Yes doing what the vet said just because they said it is nor a great idea .
If vets advice fails the common sense test always challenge it .


----------



## MPop (9 November 2014)

I can't believe how busy this forum is! I don't log on for a day or so and come back to loads of replies - it's great! 

To address some of the questions:

He is in 'full' work to the extent to which I can manage it. He is ridden every single day and we do a variety of activities - although all at a pretty low level! We jump, do dressage, attempt some low level cross country, hack over our fields, go to shows most weekends. He has a very thick coat and was getting so hot after being worked that I had to clip him. 

Yes, I could move yards. I could move him away from what I consider to be our perfect yard where he is happy and settled and where I have fantastic support in the form of my yard manager and riding instructor who both live onsite. The disadvantage of the yard is also the main advantage - the fantastic turnout. I do not live in an area where grazing is cheap or freely available and if I moved yards I would have to stable him at night which is something I don't want to do. I cannot section off a bit of the main field and I don't want him separated from the herd unless it is an absolute necessity. 

No I am not an experienced vet, but I neither do I take advice without fully considering it first. My horse is fully monitored - not just by myself but by all the fantastic people who support me with him. My yard manager, my riding instructor, other liveries and my vet. None of us would allow any horse on our yard to suffer. Since he was reclipped last week and the weather has turned cold, he has worn a rug every night. He will only go naked on a warm, dry night. 

Yes, the topic of this thread was stolen from elsewhere but as the person who has done it has not identified myself or gone into too many details I don't really mind. I have to say that originally I did find it odd that someone deliberately created a new account to start a thread on this topic as it made me think that this person does not want to be identified. I have no idea why they did this, but I don't really care either!

I originally posted about my situation because I was very upset that after all my hard work over the year my vet still considered him to be a condition score of 4. I thought that he was more of a 3, but my vet explained his reasons and I do agree. When the vet listed all the potential things that could go wrong with him in his later years if we did not shift the last bit of weight I felt like the most useless owner in the world. Sometimes we all need to vent and the internet is the best place for this, but as I said before, I will follow the advice of the people around me - my vet, my yard manager and my riding instructor. Forums are a great place to chat about horses and discussion ideas, but any advice I get via a forum will never replace the 'real life' advice I get from people who actually know my horse.


----------



## Amymay (9 November 2014)

I think we'd all love to see a photo of him MPop.


----------



## windand rain (9 November 2014)

Mpop I answered the question posed in the title not a specific horse and I stand by my comments as an answer to that question I personally would never turn a fully newly clipped out horse as an attempt to lose weight and as you have seemingly found it doesn't work he has put on a bit if your answer is as I have interpreted, He needs to be kept warm not hot and encouraged to move more. I would be a bit worried unless your grass is long  if he was muzzled at this time of year as not enough fibre will be going through his gut. So he needs a track system or more work. Muzzles only work if they are worn continuously while out only removed once in a stable as the horse can eat four times his needs in an hour if he is hungry. He needs managing not freezing. However as you are there all the time day and night to make sure he doesn't get wet and cold I am sure you will succeed in getting him to lose weight. Being low on food volume will only make him greedier and so will make his metabolism slow down and get fatter. Just like human diets they only work if you are happy to make them a lifestyle
I have four fat natives two highland ponies that graze all year as much as they want who spend far more time playing and snoozing I rarely see them eat they get fat in summer and skinny over winter and are not greedy
The other two one had a bout of laminitis and had to be on box rest and restricted grazing for a while he is greedy to the point every blade to the root is eaten in case he has to be hungry again the Connie is a lovely mare but her new owner wanted her to lose weight so she joined the little fellow on restricted grazing and now from a really fussy feeder she too eats everything to the roots for fear of not getting her tummy full So in a small experiment I have found that year round grazing of short grass has kept them fatter in summer and skinny at the end of winter and as a result have never had any metabolic issues on 50 years. Please try to organise you management and keep him protected from severe cold and wet


----------



## Regandal (9 November 2014)

If he's still not losing weight, he's either taking in too many calories or not expending enough.  You know what they say - work him longer, faster, higher.


----------



## Amymay (9 November 2014)

Brilliant post from Windrain.

Management (productive management) is the key here.

I've had 'fatties' most of my horse owning life.  They key to keeping them slim and healthy is to keep them fit and healthy.  It's tricky over the summer months, but get the balance right through the winter, and you'll be rewarded for the whole year.

With my last horse I had him exercised twice a week by a really great young apprentice jockey during the winter, and I did the work at the weekend.

He was clipped out, rugged (to the eyeballs at times), fed appropriately and stabled overnight.  He came out of winter looking like a lean, mean, riding machine.  I was lucky that I could pay someone to ride him in the week who would work him properly (to include proper 'working' fast work).

There are no corners to cut in keeping horses.


----------



## PollyP99 (9 November 2014)

You gave me advice Amymay about weight loss for my rotund section d and I now have someone working her hard properly during the week, she comes out of the school blowing and sweating and is already working much better with real drive in the school.  She is clipped but I wouldn't leave her out naked, she's in at night but I try to keep her at least a rug under the yard norm for the day or night, tonight when others are in full neck stables she has her fleece std neck on, just warm, not hot, seems to be starting to work.


----------



## Amymay (9 November 2014)

So glad your getting good results Polly


----------



## NinjaPony (9 November 2014)

I have a retired welsh a- as you can imagine its a constant battle to keep the weight off. I can't ride him or lunge him, so what I do is long rein him in the school, use a muzzle all throughout summer, and feed soaked hay and minimal feed year round. I have never needed to freeze him- in fact he is fully clipped due to skin problems and is rugged up due to his arthritis- to get him to lose weight... and if you can actually work your horse properly then things should be easier.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (9 November 2014)

best cure for fatties (I have a now retired 21 yo Exmoor who came to me extremely obese at 14, with fat pads-now gone) is to put them in a paddock with youngsters. He had a yearling to deal with a few years ago and now a 3yo  He's on hill grazing, muzzled for part of the time and out with two younger boys. When he's in, he has soaked hay (I had it analysed at 13% WSC), never rugged-although I will if I think he needs it as he gets older.

Whats he turned out with OP? he sounds like he could do with a pain-in-the-backside young gelding


----------



## SO1 (9 November 2014)

I totally understand your dilemma managing a good doer living out is very difficult if you have good grazing.

If he has put on weight despite having a full clip and not being rugged and your grazing is good enough to support poorer doers during the winter he is probably not going to loose weight using this method unless we have a very cold winter. Unfortunately he needs less grass than his field mates and probably more exercise. My pony is similar and had to be muzzled until the end of December last year and he was out without a rug and had a bib and belly clip he did not loose weight he just did not get any fatter. 

I think the problem you have with a full clip is the risk of rain scald if it is very wet if you don't rug.

It is important that they get enough fibre for their digestion but if you are worried if he is muzzled that won't get enough fibre to keep him warm that indicates that you are worried about him being cold and if you are worried about him being cold then why are you are not worried about him getting cold due to not being rugged.

I don't know if your horses get hay in the field or not later on but if they do then you may have issues then as you will need to get your horses weight down enough before they start getting hay or the other horses are going to need more hay to keep them in good condition and that is going to be too much for your horse.



MPop said:



			Yes, I did take his muzzle off when I first clipped him in September. I was worried that he wasn't getting enough to eat to keep himself warm when he was clipped, but in hindsight I wish that I had kept it on. However, while he has put on a tiny bit since then (perhaps 10kg on the weight tape) this has not been hugely significant. We seemed to reach a stable weight over the summer where he wouldn't put on any more weight, but he wouldn't lose it either. 

I will think about putting the muzzle back on, but as the weather has turned very cold and wet, I want him to 'fire up' that internal furnace and get the forage inside his body. I worry that he won't get enough food to keep himself warm.

Thank you all for being so welcoming by the way. I expected to have eggs thrown at me!
		
Click to expand...


----------



## maccachic (10 November 2014)

The thing people seem to have missed is what's the point creating heat if there is no insulation (coat) to store said heat.  

Needs to address the cause of the lack of weight loss and the cause isn't the horse being too warm.

This may be worth considering:  http://gettyequinenutrition.biz/Library/FreeChoiceForageFeedingBeyondtheBasics.htm


----------



## cptrayes (10 November 2014)

What people are missing is that horses evolved those thick coats to live on wild exposed moors with nothing decent to eat all winter, not sheltered livery paddocks


----------



## Amymay (10 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			What people are missing is that horses evolved those thick coats to live on wild exposed moors with nothing decent to eat all winter, not sheltered livery paddocks 

Click to expand...

I think thatvery few posters have missed that point actually.


----------



## Pebble101 (10 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			and if I'm a bit porky I will deliberately under dress for a football match.
		
Click to expand...

Does it really work that quickly?

My big horse is retired through injury so cannot be exercised.  He too needs to lose weight and lives out without rugs during the winter.  He does have good natural shelter from the hedges in my field as well as a field shelter.  I have been thinking of giving him a low trace clip (sweats during the warm weather) and seeing how he goes over this winter.  

I don't ever want to see him over heat again!  I really think a lot of horses have far too many rugs on them.


----------



## Goldenstar (10 November 2014)

When I met Fat  he was fat, hunting, and very fat , after illness and treatment with steroids I think at his heaviest he was 760 kilos , he's a 16.1 ID
I have not had a fat type since I had a Shetland when I was child so I had to get on and learn .
What I learned .
Grass is dynamite for Fatty strictly restricting grazing is essential , over time and reading threads on here I made a sort of track system it's not a true track but is a sort of crooked Y leading along the edges of several fields it has a lot of hedge and a shed ( luckily ) doing this was my breakthrough .
I have learnt how to work him better over time he's needs lots of slow work hacking but key is short bursts of intense work we use lunging , work up a steep bank and jumping grids to do this .
At first we got him working twice a day usually a hack in the morning and another sort of work in the afternoon 
Fatty lost ,over nearly three years , two hundred kilos .
He's been tested for EMS several times and for Cushing the tests are always negative it seems impossible that he does not have EMS but there you go.
He takes a lot of time to manage .
We strictly manage forage when he's not hunting , he's given chopped straw which he hates and strictly rationed 'lite ' Haylege but he's feed some high quality protein even out of the hunting season ( micronised linseed ) because one thing I have learnt that I needed to build bulk of healthy muscle the more muscle bulk and definition he gets the easier he is to manage .
If Fatty was not hunting ( he'll do two days a week this season ) he would be a nightmare to manage he does long days and is unrecognisable from the fat lump I started with , he's full of hell now where he was very very lazy  ( although this was in part driven by the heart problem he had when he arrived ).
You have to learn how to keep the horse happy while during it's reducing diet I learnt to do lots of different thing through the day through the day so he was always moving to a different place . The track at night , turnout in the school , the stable , tied up on the yard ( he's nosy so he like this ) so he was  standing about feeling hungry as little as possible.
Funnily now he's not as greedy as he was he has forage all the time he's stabled during the hunting season and his life is much better .
I learnt I had to take him to the vets and weigh him I do this at least four times a year .
In summer he gains weight and goes up to about 600 or 620 kilos and in winter at his leanest between mid December and mid march he goes down to around 550 .
Each season I get better muscle definition and he looks more and more an athlete all be it an ID athlete this year the fat pads on his shoulders have almost gone they used to be huge now when he's newly clipped you can see a shallow layer of fat where the huge rolls used to be .
I have two saddles for him one for the summer and one for the winter .
I wish you luck  with your horses diet / work programme I thought I would never get Fatty slim but I did .


----------



## MotherOfChickens (10 November 2014)

cptrayes said:



			What people are missing is that horses evolved those thick coats to live on wild exposed moors with nothing decent to eat all winter, not sheltered livery paddocks 

Click to expand...

really? there's more to keeping warm than a shaggy coat-body shape, head shape, size, grease production (different in say my Exmoors than my Lusitanos), ability to get as much out of rough grazing which includes adaptions in jaw shape, caecum size etc etc. I agree with you in principle but there's good reasons why say, the arab stallions turned out on Exmoor didnt survive for very long.


----------



## Wagtail (10 November 2014)

Reducing horse's rations in order for them to use up more calories than they are eating is hardly 'starving' it. At the moment the horse is getting fatter because it is consuming more calories than it needs and so it is laying those excess calories down as fat. I have absolutely no problem with leaving a horse out unrugged if it is unclipped. But I have a huge problem with messing with its heating regulation by removing all its fur and then leaving it out in the winter without a rug. I still maintain that is cruel. However, the owner of the horse that sparked this discussion has stated that the horse has not once been left out clipped and unrugged and so we are talking about a hypothetical situation.

Maybe some people who live further south have nice sheltered paddocks, but many don't. We are on top of a hill here and the wind is bitter. Our unclipped youngsters are currently out in medium weights at night and naked during the day if it is not raining or too cold and windy.


----------



## touchstone (10 November 2014)

I have clipped to help control weight in the past, but only a low trace clip at most.   I would never fully clip a horse and leave it exposed to the elements, it is totally unnecessary and with correct work and diet even my hairy unclipped native will lose weight.   
Plenty of weighed low calorie forage, a good supplement and setting up a track system if work can't be given has worked for every overweight horse I've managed.


----------



## yorkiechick08 (10 November 2014)

Inthesticks said:



			I have to say, my own opinion is you are only considering options that suit you, ie clipping out and no rug unless wet/cold

To reduce the weight of a horse, reduce it calories, ie his grazing, yet you do not want to do this for 2 reasons 

1. he will miss his friends in a 'fatty' paddock... no room to move... answer: make it large enough and don't you think he will miss his friends for a lot longer being on box rest for lami? 

2. You dont want to leave this yard, and 'you have to make the most of what you have and adapt' answer: if you care for your horse and cant reduce his grazing to an acceptable level at your current yard, you need to move him

Obviously the easy answer for you is freeze the fat off because it suits you and you don't have to move yards or reduce his grazing like 90% of experienced owners of good doers, yes... really... some other people are experienced in dealing with good doers too..

Too me you do not sound experienced enough to challenge your terrible vets advice, which we all have had to do over the years, they can be wrong as other people have said and you have to know when to follow advice and when to ask for a second opinion
		
Click to expand...

I agree with this. If you really want to shift the weight you need to really up his exercise and if this isn't possible, really restrict his food intake. Yes horses need access to forage to keep warm and keep his gut healthy, but he is still obviously getting too much from the field he is in or he wouldn't be gaining weight!


----------



## Inthesticks (10 November 2014)

double posted


----------



## Crugeran Celt (13 November 2014)

I can't imagine how fat a horse must be to warrant a full clip and turning out unrugged over winter. Surely this problem should have been addressed before the animal got this overweight?


----------



## ebonyallen (13 November 2014)

#There are ways and means to loose weight and this is not one of them,FFS. I have a good doer and I would never under rug her to get rid of the weight. As some of the others have said she has soaked hay and plenty of exercise. So what do we do next make an over weight person go out with next to nothing on Some people are beyond words...................


----------



## ChesnutsRoasting (13 November 2014)

I vaguely remember reading an article/book that stated it is the actual process of breaking down food that creates heat for the horse not the food itself, unlike humans.


----------



## maccachic (13 November 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			I vaguely remember reading an article/book that stated it is the actual process of breaking down food that creates heat for the horse not the food itself, unlike humans.
		
Click to expand...

You are correct.


----------



## cptrayes (13 November 2014)

blazingsaddles said:



			I vaguely remember reading an article/book that stated it is the actual process of breaking down food that creates heat for the horse not the food itself, unlike humans.
		
Click to expand...

It's got to be both, surely?.The process of cells using energy supplied in the blood by the digestion of food also creates heat, doesn't it? It's not that horses don't create heat with digested food, it's that humans don't create heat in the quantity a horse does by breaking down fibre in the gut.

That's why I would prefer, given the choice of only the two options, to leave a horse with less rugging and more food than to muzzle it and rug it.


----------

