# Who crates their dogs overnight?



## GeeGeeboy (28 December 2011)

Do you do it? How long for? Am having a problem with my old rescue dog who has taken to soiling the carpet during the night and I thought crating her may be the answer.


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## CorvusCorax (28 December 2011)

Yep, about 11.30pm-7.30am and he sleeps through but he has done so since he was a babt puppy and is of a very trainable breed/type.

If she is older it might take a bit longer for her to get the hang of it.

Has she been at the vet to rule out a medical condition? As they get older a lot of dogs cannot stay dry overnight, a bit like ourselves


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## Devonshire dumpling (28 December 2011)

I used one to puppy train my very dirty almost untrainable terrier puppy, worked over night!  This was 13 yrs ago!!  Both my terriers go in a cage when staying at other peoples houses as they are so spoilt they jump up on door handles to open them and scratch paintwork!!    They actually love their cage, think its cosy XX... ohh and they also go in it in the car boot!


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## QUICKFIRE (28 December 2011)

Yes I do, mainly because we are in rented accomodation, but doubt they would do damage anyway, have an adult JRT and her daughter, at previous house we didn't have a garden so the little one is crate trained, I have 2 large crates linked together, sleeping area and paper down in the other, we are at a new house now and have a garden but they both sleep in crate, and little one is learning to go outside, shut in from about 12pm till about 8am..


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## QUICKFIRE (28 December 2011)

lol my 2 go in the boot of the car too!
but they have learnt how to escape, thats terriers for you!


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## GeeGeeboy (28 December 2011)

She has not got a medical problem . She often poos and pees during the night. I just think she's never been house trained . she's a rough collie so is quite smart and trainable.


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## CorvusCorax (28 December 2011)

Re your set-up Quickfire, not knocking you if it works but for direction for the OP, the idea is that they do not go in the crate, so no paper down for this girl, they are suppose to hold it because no one wants to crap or pee where they sleep, mine can sit, stand, turn around in his, but that is about it, it's his bed for sleeping in.
In bed - sleepy times - out of the crate - straight outside for pee and poo time.
Mine is also used for the car, I must get another one, my bloody back is killing me 

Cayla has a good crate training guide she might PM you if you ask nicely or chuck a couple of quid to Adopt-a-Dog North East


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## reddie (28 December 2011)

I used to crate our jrtx at night when she wasn't housetrained.  She was in from about 11pm til anywhere between 7pm- 8pm.  She is a rescue and had no idea about beng clean in the house, and she also used to chew.  It took a couple of months before I left her out of the crate, but she has been good at night ever since.


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## Rose Folly (29 December 2011)

Probably not the best person to be commenting on this, as I loathe crates and would never, ever use them.

Anyway, leaving that aside, if your dog hasn't got a medical problem it should be perfectly possible to house train her - because that is what the problem is. We've had about a doxen rescue dogs over the past 30 years, some of  whom have poo'd and pee'd in the night. Crating may solve the symtpom but not the cause. 

So start at the beginning. Don't feed your dog late at night. Feed at least four hours before bed-time. Preferably feed two smaller feeds a day at twelve hour intervals rather than one big one at night.Don't restrict water as I've known one or two nutters do. Take your dog out after each meal, and again 3-4 hours later. Don't just turf her out of doors and hope she performs. Go with her (?), stay with her, and lavish praise for when she 'goes'. 

Our dogs have the run of the house at night as we expect only one thing of them in life, that they deter burglars and warn us of same (which they do admirably). Normally a dog trained on the above routine will come to you if they need to go out in the night - and if they do, that's just tough for you. You may have to get out of bed a few times, but that will cease.

A crate may be the easy, lazy option, but would you like to be  shut in a box just a little bigger than yourself for 7-8 hours and not allowed to go to the lavatory when you needed to? Think about it....


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## Katikins (29 December 2011)

Rose Folly said:



			A crate may be the easy, lazy option, but would you like to be  shut in a box just a little bigger than yourself for 7-8 hours and not allowed to go to the lavatory when you needed to? Think about it....
		
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A dog isn't a person!


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## TGM (29 December 2011)

When our dog was a puppy she was crated overnight, from about 10pm to 6.30am.  Totally disagree with the poster who says that crating for house-training problems is treating the symptoms and not the cause, because by using the crate in the way we did, our dog become 100% house-trained very quickly and easily and we were soon able to dispense with shutting the crate every night, although she still chose to sleep there despite having another bed available!

I think of a crate for a dog as like a cot for a baby - somewhere you can leave them when they are unsupervised and trust they will be safe and not get themselves into mischief.

We have recently had my mother's dog come to live with us, as mum is getting too frail to cope with her anymore.  This has upset the dog's routine and we have had soiling and chewing problems, so she has been crated at night.  This has worked well and she is very happy to go in the crate which actually seems to give her a sense of security.


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## quirky (29 December 2011)

We have 2 older dogs who can no longer hold themselves through the night.
Unlike the OP's, ours bark to be let out. Sometimes this can be 3 times a night . We have modified feed times, limited their water but all to no avail. To soil in the house for them is a last resort, so up I get to let them out .

I don't think a crate will solve your problem tbh, if the dog can't hold it, they can't hold it, putting them in a crate isn't going to alter their bladder and bowel retention.
I'd rather be wiping up from the floor than a crate


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## Alec Swan (29 December 2011)

Rose Folly said:



			....... I loathe crates and would never, ever use them.
....
		
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I was beginning to think that I was the only one!!  Mostly,  I agree with the rest of your post,  too.  Any house living dogs,  have their own bed,  it's a place where they have a sanctuary,  a place which is theirs,  and a place (generally as puppies),  where they are _put_,  following a flea being put in their ear!

All our internal house doors remain open at night,  and from a very young age,  all dogs have learned how to wake me,  by whining at the bottom of the stairs,  in the case of an emergency loo break.  It beats coming down stairs,  first thing on a winters morning,  in the dark and stepping in a dump,  with bare feet!! 

Alec.

Ets.  It is also a case,  of each to their own!!


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## MrsMozart (29 December 2011)

We've used crates and pens over the years to good effect. 

The Shih Tzu were rescue dogs. Not at all house trained and very hard to train in that respect. They are now penned at night and whilst we're out - the pen is big enough for them to all have their own space, but they rarely soil in there.


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## TGM (29 December 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			All our internal house doors remain open at night,  and from a very young age,  all dogs have learned how to wake me,  by whining at the bottom of the stairs,  in the case of an emergency loo break.  It beats coming down stairs,  first thing on a winters morning,  in the dark and stepping in a dump,  with bare feet!!
		
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That's fine if you have trained your dogs from pups - the one I have had from a puppy will whine in the night on the rare occasion that she is desperate to go in the night, so I will go down and let her out.  However, not always so simple if you rehome a dog that has not been trained that way.  The new dog does not whine or bark but just dumps on the floor overnight.  It is obviously not because she is incapable of holding it, as she is clean if crated overnight.  I do wonder whether the fact we have a slate floor confuses her - perhaps she thinks it is like the patio in her old home and therefore an acceptable place to poo!

I do agree with Quirky though, that if the OP's dog physically can't contain itself then a crate won't help.  If she wants to go down the crate route then borrowing one to start with might be a good idea to determine whether the dog has just got into bad habits or really cannot control its bowels.


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## SavingGrace (29 December 2011)

My dog is crated when we are all out of the house. He has lots of room in his infact you can fit two dogs (big staffies) and my niece 6 and nephew 10 in their.   Not that I advocate putting children in crates it was their choice to see how many fitted in when it came not mine


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## Devonshire dumpling (29 December 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			I was beginning to think that I was the only one!!  Mostly,  I agree with the rest of your post,  too.  Any house living dogs,  have their own bed,  it's a place where they have a sanctuary,  a place which is theirs,  and a place (generally as puppies),  where they are _put_,  following a flea being put in their ear!

All our internal house doors remain open at night,  and from a very young age,  all dogs have learned how to wake me,  by whining at the bottom of the stairs,  in the case of an emergency loo break.  It beats coming down stairs,  first thing on a winters morning,  in the dark and stepping in a dump,  with bare feet!! 

Alec.

Ets.  It is also a case,  of each to their own!!
		
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I've had alot of experience with puppies and my collies and gsd's, and our patterdale was trained the conventional way, but this one terrier puppy was so hard to train, he is still a bit special needs now 13 yrs on..... not very bright, but he got the crate method over night, so there is definately a place for it, shouldn't be ruled out, my dogs absolutely love their cage. X


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## CorvusCorax (29 December 2011)

Wow, lazy AND a nutter   

Rose Folly as Alec says, each to their own, every dog is different, mine, just like me, can sleep through eight hours without needing a pee


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## Devonshire dumpling (29 December 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Wow, lazy AND a nutter   

Rose Folly as Alec says, each to their own, every dog is different, mine, just like me, can sleep through eight hours without needing a pee 

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My 17 yr old and 13 yr old can still be left 8 hours of a day without a wee!


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## FrodoBeutlin (29 December 2011)

I cannot comment as my Italian greyhounds sleep in bed with me most nights... 

In general though I've always found it interesting that a lot of the people who advocate crating at night call horse owners who stable their horses overnight 'cruel'...Never understood what the difference is!


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## Rose Folly (29 December 2011)

Sorry, that was a bit of a terse reply, though i stand by what I said. Had just seen a crated dog, crate far too small, it couldn't even turn round without bending into a U shape. OP, no of course dogs aren't humans, but we do share things like physical discomfort, aching bones, the need to stretch right out. But maybe you're too young to know how that feels?

Alex, so glad I'm not the only nutter. And ours call us like yours. None of our rescue dogs were puppies, they were all 4-6 year olds when we had them. So they are trainable. It's all T & P (Time and Patience). But, each to his own.


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## Devonshire dumpling (29 December 2011)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			I cannot comment as my Italian greyhounds sleep in bed with me most nights... 

In general though I've always found it interesting that a lot of the people who advocate crating at night call horse owners who stable their horses overnight 'cruel'...Never understood what the difference is!
		
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I don't think it's cruel to stable a horse overnight, BUT you were asking what the difference was so I shall tell you:-

Dogs curl up into a little ball and sleep all night generally

Horses stand, walk around, and graze all night, no comparison really


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## Devonshire dumpling (29 December 2011)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			I cannot comment as my Italian greyhounds sleep in bed with me most nights... 

In general though I've always found it interesting that a lot of the people who advocate crating at night call horse owners who stable their horses overnight 'cruel'...Never understood what the difference is!
		
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Rose Folly said:



			Sorry, that was a bit of a terse reply, though i stand by what I said. Had just seen a crated dog, crate far too small, it couldn't even turn round without bending into a U shape. OP, no of course dogs aren't humans, but we do share things like physical discomfort, aching bones, the need to stretch right out. But maybe you're too young to know how that feels?

Alex, so glad I'm not the only nutter. And ours call us like yours. None of our rescue dogs were puppies, they were all 4-6 year olds when we had them. So they are trainable. It's all T & P (Time and Patience). But, each to his own.
		
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Ohhhh I agree they should have plenty of room!!  My  2 terriers are in a labrador sized cage.. mine could probably do little circuits if they wanted lol


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## NeverSayNever (29 December 2011)

I crate train all mine from day 1 as puppies, to aid in toilet training and for their own safety in the house overnight or if unsupervised. I have working line border collies and start every pup off in the house so they bond with us and have intensive human time, then they are slowly integrated into the kennels from about 6 months. 

Im not sure I would put an older dog who had never been crated into one though. My old labrador was the only one i never crate trained, he was my first dog and I hadnt even heard of them. When he started having accidents overnight at the age of about 12 it never crossed my mind to start crating him, we just lifted the carpet in the front porch for him instead and put down paper. He lived for another 3 years like that.


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## CorvusCorax (29 December 2011)

I've never thought stabling a horse was cruel either  and there ain't room enough on the bed for both of us!
He does have room to stretch in the crate though  don't worry about my fella, what you saw RF, was the action of an idiot owner, not the fault of a crate, which is an inanimate object or the fault of people who use them properly


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## Dobiegirl (29 December 2011)

Im new to crating and a convert, if used correctly it is a wonderful way to keep your dog safe. But theres the rub  some people dump their dog in there continualy not what they were designed for. Our puppy has used it from day one and sees it as her bed even though she could use any of the others. They are only as good as the people who use them ,used correctly dogs see them as their sanctuary used incorrectly dogs see them as a prison.

This is an interesting article from a dog rescue who are against crates but who can blame them when they see them used incorrectly and want to be sure dogs are not being locked up 24/7 http://www.hollyhedge.org.uk/crating.asp

When we took our pup to dog training the dog trainer spent quite a lot of time teaching people about correct crating and even had some to show(he was not selling any).


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## FrodoBeutlin (29 December 2011)

Devonshire dumpling said:



			I don't think it's cruel to stable a horse overnight, BUT you were asking what the difference was so I shall tell you:-

Dogs curl up into a little ball and sleep all night generally

Horses stand, walk around, and graze all night, no comparison really
		
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Relatively speaking - a competition horse who has been stabled all of his life would quite simply not cope with being left out 24/7 - I know mine wouldn't!!


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## CorvusCorax (29 December 2011)

FrodoBeutlin said:



			Relatively speaking - a competition horse who has been stabled all of his life would quite simply not cope with being left out 24/7 - I know mine wouldn't!!
		
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Well I hope you leave the radio on and give him a stuffed Kong, you bad, bad mummy  

Baldy blows kisses to Beezle, by the way x


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## paulineh (29 December 2011)

The only time I would cage one of mine is when we go shooting , this is a safety thing so I can leave the back of the Land Rover open during lunch 
I do not crate mine any other time  At night they are in the Kennels which has a large run so of they need to at night they can get out there.


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## CorvusCorax (29 December 2011)

I use runs and a car crate too AND I let him sit on the sofa beside me it's just a different degree of temporary confinement, which keeps the dog safe and dry (and my sofa uneaten ) in my opinion. I could let my dogs go wherever they want all the time but they would probably get hit by a car or shot in a farmer's field or end up in the vets after trying to swallow the entire sofa  

Again, I think people need to direct their ire at people who misuse items, not the items themselves or the people who use them correctly. Remind me about that the next time I rant about flexis or chain leads


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## Kaylum (29 December 2011)

I dont crate and never have done.  Prefer to train mine.  Wouldnt say anything about someone else crating theirs but for me personally I dont like the get out and put away thing.  

I also go away a lot and take her with me.  I can trust her if I have to leave her to go out and know she wont have wrecked anything when we get back.


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## TGM (29 December 2011)

Kaylum said:



			I dont crate and never have done.  Prefer to train mine.
		
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You see I don't see it as a crate versus training issue.  You can train a dog AND use a crate you know!  It is just that a crate can help during the training period - the idea being that eventually the dog will be fully house-trained without using the crate.


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## s4sugar (29 December 2011)

I use a crate in hotel rooms so my dogs need to be crate trained.

It is always useful to be prepared eg for after surgury and is as well as house training not instead of.


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## CorvusCorax (29 December 2011)

Is that really the insinuation though? If you use a crate, you 'can't be bothered' to 'train' your dogs?! 
Please someone actually tell me they believe this, so I can pass out laughing


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## Kaylum (29 December 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Is that really the insinuation though? If you use a crate, you 'can't be bothered' to 'train' your dogs?! 
Please someone actually tell me they believe this, so I can pass out laughing 

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Not sure why you would think its insinutation?  I dont like the put away thing.  My dog is just that a dog.  She is well trained so knows right from wrong.  No need to crate a dog that knows how to behave?  Otherwise dont you trust your dog?  Why crate in the first place or feel the need to have to crate?   Our rescue jr wasnt even house trained when we got her but she soon learned without being crated and she was 2 years old. The OP asked a question and I answered.  there is no right or wrong answer.


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## TGM (29 December 2011)

Kaylum said:



			No need to crate a dog that knows how to behave?
		
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  But no-one is suggesting crating a dog that knows how to behave!  They are suggesting crating dogs that haven't yet learnt to behave AS AN INTERIM MEASURE until they learn exactly where is acceptable to soil.  No-one is saying don't bother training your dog because you can just crate them all the time instead.


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## Kaylum (29 December 2011)

TGM said:



			But no-one is suggesting crating a dog that knows how to behave!  They are suggesting crating dogs that haven't yet learnt to behave AS AN INTERIM MEASURE until they learn exactly where is acceptable to soil.  No-one is saying don't bother training your dog because you can just crate them all the time instead.
		
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Exactly training them?  Some are always kept in crates overnight though so how will they learn?   Interesting to see the newer ways of training compared to the older ways!


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## CorvusCorax (29 December 2011)

He is a young, high energy dog with more spunk and drive than most pets, however when he is in the crate he is like a lamb and chills out, it is somewhere where I can put him when we have visitors around who do not like dogs, it is somewhere I can put him if I am visiting other people who do not want a dog running around, or if I need to work on something and not be confronted by a large dog who wants to sit on my knee at the same time - he has been dry since a pup as another poster has said, it is part of house training, but not all of house training.
Again, if he ever needs to be confined for a medical reason, he will not freak out.

He is the type of dog who always has to have something in his mouth and because of the way I am training him I do not want to have to tell him off every time he brings me something and no, I do not trust him to not touch soft furnishings overnight, cause they is chewy  and I cannot sit up all night waiting for him to touch the soft furnishings then issue a correction/distrations and/or give him an alternative, which is what I do when he is out of the crate.
My old bitch, who was not a chewy dog at all, swallowed two pairs of tights when unattended, nearly died and accrued a huge vet bill when they wound around her gut.

I spend a lot of time, money and effort training my dogs, doing a wee tiny bit more than just house training, please don't assume I am 'lazy' or 'cannot be bothered'.
A lot of people I know have trained their dog to spend time in a crate and these are mostly high-performing competition or service dogs as well as pets, I think they'd do more than laugh if you suggested they 'couldn't be bothered' 

Believe me, I know the difference between a happy dog and an unhappy dog, and mine is the former, not the latter


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## CAYLA (29 December 2011)

TGM said:



			You see I don't see it as a crate versus training issue.  You can train a dog AND use a crate you know!  It is just that a crate can help during the training period - the idea being that eventually the dog will be fully house-trained without using the crate.
		
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^^^^ exactly, it is but a different way of training, you will end up with the same result, only some people use the crate forever more as the dog becomes very accustomed to using it.
I actually see a crate as a fantastic tool for seperation anxiety, IMO it is far more distressing to leave an adult rescue dog with severe SA the run of a room/house to work up more anxiety  (that someone was far to lazy to train) so they dumped it on a rescue and the next owner was contemplaiting the same as they just could not cope with the house being destroyed and them not being able to leave the house, the crate then becomes an invaluable tool and creates the security the dog needs.

The argument of abuse can be shared with anything! a kennel, house or room can be abused in the same way, you can still leave a dog locked in a kennel 24/7 with no food or stimulation and slowly starve it to death (should they not be used for this reason?) same with a stable, again should be ban the use of them? it's common sense and being responsible, it is a very positive process introducing and using a crate.

I do not NEED to crate my own dogs but I an not of the thought process that  that no body else should use a crate, because I "understand" why crates are used and what a fantastic training "tool" they can be. 
We all lead different lifestyles and every dog is different, IMO it is a far more stressing and drawn out process to say allow a dog to keep urinating and defecating indoors or pull up carpets and allow the dog to keep messing in the hope the dog grows out of "whatever" it is doing when left, or simply shutting it in a room and hoping for the best, because the frenzie the dog whips it's self up into unbeknown to you is pretty horrendous. And is this not a way of avoiding training?

As s4sugar suggests, crating is also a very good way to prepare you dog for stays at the vets or rest periods, the amount of people I have seen wanting to pull their hair out or the healing process for an operation drawn out simply because an owner could not confine their dog, or the stress a dogs whips it's self up into in vets when an inpatient is unreal and rather sad to watch and distressing for the dog. Some because they are in a strange environment obs but others simply because they have never been contained before and they become very distressed. Crates do have their place and are a fantastic training tool, and some may never need them but for some and for dogs they can be an invaluable life saver in ore ways than one.

OP, it is certainly worth a try, your dog could obs be passing faeces/urinate to to old age and as suggested trying feeding earlier and leaving a measured amount of water may help but in the instance it does not then a crate or even creating a small space without the use of a crate would do not harm if introduced positively, it could also be it has become habit/routine for her to pass motions, or something could be disturbing her which in turn could see her pacing around the floor from her bed, or ot could be the break of light, so a black out blind, radio on low or the crate with a blanket over it may see her more settled.

I know I just boarded a 16 yr old terrier and it has been urinating and deficating in their home now for a good year overnight (been vet checked), I crated him here and he slept right through (lets not forget crates dont silence them so he obviously felt more secure within the crate and it took away his pacing (which was distressing him) as he slept and snored all night and was dry as a bone in the morning when I let him out for the toilet, he then went straight back to the crate where the door was left open till night again when I closed it. His owners have now used a crate and he is dry, of course they can gradually outsource it once again, it is just creating a new routine for him, much the same as he was getting himself into when piddling and poohing all over. As some dogs simply wont wake you.


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## CAYLA (29 December 2011)

Kaylum said:



			Exactly training them?  Some are always kept in crates overnight though so how will they learn?   Interesting to see the newer ways of training compared to the older ways!
		
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And alot of those who carry on using the crate when it can easily be outsourced do so because the dog becomes so comfortable and accustomed to it.
If I put a crate up for a new rescue arrival, all of my own will try to get in, even though they have the settee, or comfy beds or sleeping bags. Dogs like crates/small spaces and will " shockingly" choose to take them selves into them without force


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## 4faults (29 December 2011)

I crate my terriers when I'm out, they have a huge crate which they love, they have toys, food, water and beds in there. The big dog goes in the kitchen with them but is loose. I do this because I live in a rented house.  Overnight my bedroom is a free for all, dog beds everywhere and the odd dog on the bed ;-)


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## blackcob (29 December 2011)

FWIW - I found a crate absolutely invaluable in combating severe separation anxiety, and in fact fail to see how I could have done it without one as she was systematically destroying the house.  As Cayla says it would have been more cruel to continue leaving her loose as it allowed the anxiety to escalate, she was pinging off the walls and frantically searching for things to destroy; the crate presented the option to lie quietly and chew appropriate tasty things. 

The newest dog came to us as a two and a half year old who had never been in a crate before and with no issues that would lead us to try crate training him. He's in it right now, upside down with his bits hanging out, snoring.  Give them a treat and they race to be the first to take it to the crate. It's a safe zone, their bed, their space. The door is never closed these days, even when I'm out, but the bitch often will take herself in there when I go to put my shoes in in expectation of a nice treat. 

One sleeps on the sofa at night, the other on a bed on the landing outside our room.  I keep the crate around for the above reasons (simply, that they like it!) and for the rare occasion when we have non-dog people in the house - gas meter reader, for example, or the police officers we had here a while back, one of whom was desperate to let them out and say hello but the other one wouldn't let him, proper good cop bad cop routine.


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## Alec Swan (29 December 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Is that really the insinuation though? If you use a crate, you 'can't be bothered' to 'train' your dogs?! 
Please someone actually tell me they believe this, so I can pass out laughing 

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Whilst donning a full body suit(),  explain to me the difference between a dog's bed,  and a cage,  except that one contains the dog.  What's the first thing which a bitch teaches a pup,  and the first thing that we teach them?  To stay where they're put,  may well be the answer.  Containing or forcing them to stay where they are put,  is a cop out,  in my view.  I accept that we don't agree. 

It isn't a case of lack of care,  knowledge,  or laziness,  but more a case that those dogs which live within a house,  and learn and understand where their bed is,  will all so often,  be so much more amenable when receiving further instructions.



TGM said:



			But no-one is suggesting crating a dog that knows how to behave!  They are suggesting crating dogs that haven't yet learnt to behave AS AN INTERIM MEASURE .......
		
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The simple answer,  in my view,  is to short circuit the system,  teach the dog from Day 1 that you mean what you say,  and I suspect that those who put dogs in cages,  difficult though the first day or two may be,  will end up with a happier dog,  a happier self,  AND the bloody kitchen (or wherever) wont be an obstacle course for the two legged inhabitants.  

The answer is simple,  as I see it, "That's your bed,  and you will stay on it until invited to move,  and when you understand that I mean what I say,  THEN,  I may allow you a little more freedom within MY home.  You're a dog,  and that's that!!"

I know of a delightful lady,  not so far from me,  who on a regular basis,  over the years has gone out and bought some very useful young sheep dogs.  She would tell the world that she's a sheep-dog-trialler.  She's hopeless.  She's wrecked one good dog after another,  and so I understand,  she now has *NINE* cages,  all within her ample kitchen,  and each one contains a now useless dog.  A friend suggested that she hired out her kitchen to the army,  as an obstacle course.  She hasn't been invited round for tea,  recently!!

It will be obvious how I feel about dogs being kept in cages,  within a house,  but whilst much of this has been tongue-in-cheek,  I really do feel that a dog which understands where it's bed is,  and what it's for,  is a dog which will learn to think for itself.

One caveat to the above forthright thoughts,  and it's important.  I will accept that as most dogs would find soiling there beds to be difficult,  it may well be an answer to the dog which proves impossible to house train.

With a BP vest,  I shall now retire! 

Alec.


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## RutlandH2O (29 December 2011)

I think the important thing to realise here is the fact that dogs are denning animals (think wolves). A crate should never be used as a place of punishment. It is a lair, a safe place, especially when pups and/or dogs are brought into a new environment. I think crates are a valuable tool in the management of pups. My babies have always been crate trained, and in so doing, become house-broken. They love their "space." I have always left a crate available to the dogs, with the door removed or tied open. It's also invaluable when leaving the house and knowing the pup can't chew an electric wire or chair leg. I've never had a problem. And I don't have to crate them overnight as they mature. When they are young, a crate-trained dog is a pleasure on a car journey. Crate training also minimises the stress a dog will encounter in the event he has to remain at the vet's for medical treatment. I see crate training as a win win situation.


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## blackcob (29 December 2011)

That's something I forgot to add in my post - both dogs have had to be crated at various times for veterinary treatment, one for a couple of days (dislocated hip) and it is good to know that they will settle in that situation and even be reassured by the fact that they're confined. 

They also have to be crated to travel, must settle in the car crate for short periods at competitions, training rallies etc. and again it's ideal that I can pop them in the crate and know that they will be quiet and chill out in what can otherwise be quite stressful situations.


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## CorvusCorax (29 December 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			Whilst donning a full body suit(),  explain to me the difference between a dog's bed,  and a cage,  except that one contains the dog.  What's the first thing which a bitch teaches a pup,  and the first thing that we teach them?  To stay where they're put,  may well be the answer.  Containing or forcing them to stay where they are put,  is a cop out,  in my view....

....will end up with a happier dog,  a happier self,  AND the bloody kitchen (or wherever) wont be an obstacle course for the two legged inhabitants

.....It will be obvious how I feel about dogs being kept in cages,  within a house
		
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- Well one is lovely and fluffy and must DIE and the other is not. It is still a bed, just one with a door on it.

- I've never met a happier, more gregarious dog

- But you kennel dogs? Why don't you just tell them to 'stay where they are put' when they are outside? 

- I do know how to tell a dog to stay where it is put, it is called the 'long down' or 'downstay' exercise  and I managed to get the big dog to do a very respectable one in just two weeks.


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## Dobiegirl (29 December 2011)

Oh BH the crate debate has started again, a dog ,trained to use a crate chooses yes chooses to go into their crate because its safe.  A crate trained dog retains all its faculties and is as happy as any  other normal dog.


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## CorvusCorax (29 December 2011)

We haven't had a flouncer yet, we had a great flounce last time!


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## Dobiegirl (29 December 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			We haven't had a flouncer yet, we had a great flounce last time! 

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I cant remember who flounced last time seriously though you would think it was the tool of the devil.

Its funny how this forum works people get really worked up about this and yet puppy farming dosnt warrant a reply.


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## TGM (29 December 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			The simple answer,  in my view,  is to short circuit the system,  teach the dog from Day 1 that you mean what you say,  and I suspect that those who put dogs in cages,  difficult though the first day or two may be,  will end up with a happier dog,  a happier self,  AND the bloody kitchen (or wherever) wont be an obstacle course for the two legged inhabitants.  

The answer is simple,  as I see it, "That's your bed,  and you will stay on it until invited to move,  and when you understand that I mean what I say,  THEN,  I may allow you a little more freedom within MY home.  You're a dog,  and that's that!!"
		
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Oh, if life were quite that simple!  Take the 11 yo dog I have been unexpectedly landed with.  Am I to stay up all night watching over her to ensure that she stays in her bed and doesn't soil the floor?  Not a realistic option for me, so I just shut the door of the crate overnight (she tends to head for the crate automatically over the dog bed anyway).  Then in the morning I can let her out in the garden and praise her effusively when she empties her bowels in the right place!  The idea being that she will then get into the habit of using the lawn rather than the kitchen floor.  No worries about the room being an obstacle course as the crate fits neatly under a stretch of worktop.


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## GeeGeeboy (29 December 2011)

Wow! Think I've started a debate! Have read all the replies, very interesting . Someone pointed out that I should try to housetrain her from scratch. Believe me I have tried and done all the things that the poster suggested. Unfortunately it hasn't worked, think the old girl is a bit senile so the crate would be a last resort. Still considering it though. Thanks for all the replies.


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## Devonshire dumpling (29 December 2011)

GeeGeeboy said:



			Wow! Think I've started a debate! Have read all the replies, very interesting . Someone pointed out that I should try to housetrain her from scratch. Believe me I have tried and done all the things that the poster suggested. Unfortunately it hasn't worked, think the old girl is a bit senile so the crate would be a last resort. Still considering it though. Thanks for all the replies.
		
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Ahhh bless her, crate training won't work if she is a bit doo laaaalleyyyy in the head tho!  Why don't you take her to the vets and see if they can't prescribe something to help with her brain.. some drugs can increase oxygen levels to the brain and help


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## Alec Swan (29 December 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			- 
- But you kennel dogs? Why don't you just tell them to 'stay where they are put' when they are outside? 

.......
		
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Of course,  but leaving a dog,  unattended,  and out doors wouldn't be a sensible option,  as you will be well aware.  I do my level best to never give a dog an instruction,  without being in a position to be certain of compliance,  and neither,  I suspect,  would you! 



Dobiegirl said:



			.......a dog ,trained to use a crate chooses yes chooses to go into their crate because its safe.
		
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.....but no greater perceived safety that its own bed.  I knew someone who put dogs in crates,  to protect the dogs from her children.   Stupid woman.



CaveCanem said:



			We haven't had a flouncer yet, we had a great flounce last time! 

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Those who "Flounce" (lovely word! ),  tend to do so because they run out of valid points,  I think!

To me it seems,  its all about the dog,  and rightly so.  A dog which sees its bed as a sanctuary,  a place of rest and peace,  is a happier animal.  If the door is permanently open,  then I fail to see the benefit to a cage,  but there we are.  We seem to agree to disagree,  which is progress,  if nothing else,  and as you say,  not a _Flouncer _in sight,  yet!

Whilst hardly a voice in the wilderness,  I seem to be in a minority.  I enjoy debate,  and though others may find this hard to accept,  I read the majority of posts on here,  with genuine interest,  and an _almost_ open mind! 

Alec.


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## splashgirl45 (29 December 2011)

why does everything have to be black and white...  crating is a useful aid to housetraining and also is handy to travel dogs and to allow the car have all windows and the back open , when stationeryobviously...   my lurcher still sleeps in her crate which is in my spare bedroom, it has a blanket over it and a bed inside and the door is tied open.  as far as she is concerned it is her bed and she is comfortable in there.   i also used a crate when i got my new puppy so i could leave her in it when i went out so she was safe.  i dont think my lurcher would have hurt her but i wouldnt take the chance.   like everything, they have their place if used sensibly.....


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## lizness (29 December 2011)

I crate overnight! Winston is 2 now (!) and when I got him (off Cayla) at 10weeks he was practiclly house trained I think with help form the crate. I still crate and I don't see any reason not too, he goes about 11.30-6.30. He goes into his bed at night and you sometimes need to wake him in the morning! I like how I can leave things laying about chocolate etc... I know that the cat will not be pestered. It is very useful if I go to stay with parents or someone else so I know that he is safe.


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## Toffee44 (29 December 2011)

Dylan and Teal crate over night with the doors open.........obviously a very cruel place for them to go. And I have only set the crates back up for a week in preperation for the boys visit to the vets. 

I remember starting a debate like this is in my first AAD post lol.


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## RutlandH2O (29 December 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			Whilst donning a full body suit(),  explain to me the difference between a dog's bed,  and a cage,  except that one contains the dog.  What's the first thing which a bitch teaches a pup,  and the first thing that we teach them?  To stay where they're put,  may well be the answer.  Containing or forcing them to stay where they are put,  is a cop out,  in my view.  I accept that we don't agree. 

It isn't a case of lack of care,  knowledge,  or laziness,  but more a case that those dogs which live within a house,  and learn and understand where their bed is,  will all so often,  be so much more amenable when receiving further instructions.



The simple answer,  in my view,  is to short circuit the system,  teach the dog from Day 1 that you mean what you say,  and I suspect that those who put dogs in cages,  difficult though the first day or two may be,  will end up with a happier dog,  a happier self,  AND the bloody kitchen (or wherever) wont be an obstacle course for the two legged inhabitants.  

The answer is simple,  as I see it, "That's your bed,  and you will stay on it until invited to move,  and when you understand that I mean what I say,  THEN,  I may allow you a little more freedom within MY home.  You're a dog,  and that's that!!"

I know of a delightful lady,  not so far from me,  who on a regular basis,  over the years has gone out and bought some very useful young sheep dogs.  She would tell the world that she's a sheep-dog-trialler.  She's hopeless.  She's wrecked one good dog after another,  and so I understand,  she now has *NINE* cages,  all within her ample kitchen,  and each one contains a now useless dog.  A friend suggested that she hired out her kitchen to the army,  as an obstacle course.  She hasn't been invited round for tea,  recently!!

It will be obvious how I feel about dogs being kept in cages,  within a house,  but whilst much of this has been tongue-in-cheek,  I really do feel that a dog which understands where it's bed is,  and what it's for,  is a dog which will learn to think for itself.

One caveat to the above forthright thoughts,  and it's important.  I will accept that as most dogs would find soiling there beds to be difficult,  it may well be an answer to the dog which proves impossible to house train.

With a BP vest,  I shall now retire! 

Alec.
		
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Are you saying that you would put an 8 or 9 weeks old pup on its bed and demand it STAY until you release it from your command overnight? In that case, the crate offers a hell of a lot more freedom. To suggest that a crate trained dog is less happy and less able to think for itself is absurd. I would think a very young pup in your training regime would a) become extremely apprehensive and b) lack the ability to "think" for itself, while you are demanding it stay put. As you say above, "forcing them to stay where they are put is a cop out."


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## CAYLA (29 December 2011)

Lol, the great crate debate

A few pointers to those who say " I prefer to train" it is actually alot easier to allow destruction and put up with piddle and crap (although may not smell to grand or your house looks so nice) believe it or not! crating involves alot more training and involves alot of patience as I mentioned the lazier way would be to let the dog carry on with the destruction or indeed "get shot of the dog" which is a common method used to tackle destruction or pishing issues.

I could also say for arguments sake, I can leave my akita out of her kennel and she will not venture from my garden weather I am there or not, nor would she leave my horses field even though the inadequate fencing allowed it, so therefor I have proved kennels/fencing are not needed either, because I trained her properly or I can walk my akita off lead anywhere so therefor I have proved leads are not needed!  If I can train an akita to do these things then ALL dogs are surely the same

In the link that DG included, they are using an ancient dog and are clearly standing with it (taking a cutesy picture) and have not once mentioned SA problems or toileting problems or rental houses or 1 dog in a household, or travelling or visiting family, or vet visits, or any other factors that make crate training invaluable . I assume they are a Kennel based rescue also, I wonder if they rehome to people who use kennels or can truely assess a dog in regard to toileting or SA when they have only seen it in "their rescue kennels"
Also as mentioned if a dog can be trained to remain in a bed when told then what is the difference between the dog not being able/allowed/trained to not leave the bed and a one in a crate with the door closed, is the difference not just an invisible barrier

I also wonder how many people have taken a dog from a pound to find when they try to leave the dog in their home, it chews or passes urine and faeces/barks? and exaclty what advice they gave to tackle this


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## Alec Swan (29 December 2011)

RutlandH2O said:



			Are you saying that you would put an 8 or 9 weeks old pup on its bed and demand it STAY until you release it from your command overnight? .......
		
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No,  of course I'm not.  The very best way to dull a puppies future ability to take in commands,  is to bore it whilst it's still a baby-in-arms.  My OH would object (correction,  hit the roof!),  but the best place for a puppy of that age,  is on my bed,  with me! 

Surprised?

Alec.


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## MurphysMinder (29 December 2011)

I was just going to raise the point about an 8 week old pup, which is when I start crating.  Yes you can place a pup in its bed and encourage it to stay there, but if it is night time that pup ain't going to stay till morning.  It is however quite likely to chew doors, table legs etc, as I know to my cost from having pups for many years pre crates.  I have I think used crates for my last 4 or 5 dogs, without exception they have become clean in the house very quickly (Pickle the heeler was clean overnight from day 1) and they have treated their crate as a place of sanctuary.
Evie was crated, with the dog shut, overnight until fairly recently.  This was because she shared the kitchen with Buffy and as Buff had problems with her sight and occasionally had painful flare ups which involved her crying in pain, so it was safer for both to keep them separate.  
  And yes Alec I have put a dog in a crate to protect it from children, not my children but from a visiting child who would not leave the dog alone, this was an old bitch who had recently had an eye removed, normally she adored children but at this time I felt she deserved some peace and quiet.


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## RutlandH2O (29 December 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			No,  of course I'm not.  The very best way to dull a puppies future ability to take in commands,  is to bore it whilst it's still a baby-in-arms.  My OH would object (correction,  hit the roof!),  but the best place for a puppy of that age,  is on my bed,  with me! 

Surprised?

Alec.
		
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Phew!!


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## CAYLA (29 December 2011)

Ostrich said:



			Oh c'mon Cayla it is quite clear, you miss the obvious opportunity to browbeat the dog into staying on it's bed (physically and/or mentally) because it-is-a-dog-and-therefore-must-do-as-you-say if you don't use a crate 

Instead of popping it into a crate, saying 'there you go, good night' and that is it 

I used a crate to protect my ickle Flickle greyhound from nasty savage Amy when I got her   Every other rescue has been crated for it's own protection but I figured Amy could hold her own 

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^^^^ And another good reason for crates, when you have a new arrival and other already established dogs it is of course common sense to crate the new member/small puppy for safety.....and NO you never needed to crate Amy, cos I had already crate trained her and outsourced it I am a good rescue like that u see


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## Alec Swan (29 December 2011)

MurphysMinder said:



			I was just going to raise the point about an 8 week old pup, which is when I start crating.  Yes you can place a pup in its bed and encourage it to stay there, but if it is night time that pup ain't going to stay till morning........
		
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What I do,  is this;  I would take a recently acquired puppy,  and provide it with a blanket.  The blanket would then be rubbed (the right word?) all over the puppy's body,  specifically around its peeing equipment.  The puppy will then recognise its own scent,  they do it from the age of 10 days to find their own bed,  whilst with their siblings.  

OK,  so almost a crate,  but they may also have an open cardboard box,  for the first night,  or two.   The box will be removed before or after they wreck it! 

If I go to bed at 23.00 hrs ish,  then I  leave either,  and/or a wireless playing (radio 4 works well,  boring but it's the human voice!),  and one of those really irritating '60s alarm clocks with a really loud tick tock,  there's something about the matching with a heart beat,  I suspect.  To be honest,  I don't know,  but it seems to help.

With a newly arrived puppy,  and assuming that the OH's in residence,  then I'm up at 05.30,  and the puppy is out of the door,  with out a word of greeting or welcome from me. A "Hello Darling girl",  can have puppies peeing for the County!!



RutlandH2O said:



			Phew!!
		
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Not too sure how to take that,  and whether you approve,  or not!  

Alec.


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## CAYLA (29 December 2011)

Ostrich said:



			LOL indeed you are   I completely agree, even Hoover was crated to protect him from the harem when I first got him even though he is twice their size 

ETA...... got any nice whippets in? 

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Yes, a peach and white boy


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## quirky (29 December 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			I knew someone who put dogs in crates,  to protect the dogs from her children.   Stupid woman.
		
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 I put my Italian Greyhound in his crate when we have visiting children. He is young, playful and likes to join in. It only takes one of the children to slam the door on him and he has a serious injury. It is not worth the risk. Just because my children know how to treat/behave round animals, doesn't mean other children do. Does that make me stupid  or a responsible owner ?

I leave the GSP's out as they have perfected the art of repelling unwanted children .


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## MurphysMinder (29 December 2011)

That is almost exactly what I used to do Alec, until I started using crates.  I haven't used a clock or radio as there have always been other dogs with a new pup, sometimes their dam which again is a reason why I find a crate useful, it saves the pup mithering its poor mother all night.


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## RutlandH2O (29 December 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			What I do,  is this;  I would take a recently acquired puppy,  and provide it with a blanket.  The blanket would then be rubbed (the right word?) all over the puppy's body,  specifically around its peeing equipment.  The puppy will then recognise its own scent,  they do it from the age of 10 days to find their own bed,  whilst with their siblings.  

OK,  so almost a crate,  but they may also have an open cardboard box,  for the first night,  or two.   The box will be removed before or after they wreck it! 

If I go to bed at 23.00 hrs ish,  then I  leave either,  and/or a wireless playing (radio 4 works well,  boring but it's the human voice!),  and one of those really irritating '60s alarm clocks with a really loud tick tock,  there's something about the matching with a heart beat,  I suspect.  To be honest,  I don't know,  but it seems to help.

With a newly arrived puppy,  and assuming that the OH's in residence,  then I'm up at 05.30,  and the puppy is out of the door,  with out a word of greeting or welcome from me. A "Hello Darling girl",  can have puppies peeing for the County!!



Not too sure how to take that,  and whether you approve,  or not!  

Alec.
		
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Taking a baby pup to bed for a little while...of course I approve!!


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## NeverSayNever (29 December 2011)

.............. it all works very well with my system until you pop out for an hour and the 4 year old retired-due-to-injury-read-pampered-house-dog lets the 18 week old whirling red dirvish out from his cage for his own merriment and amusement   This did result in fumigation of the entire house after the 4 year old (who should have known better) couldnt keep up with the whirling red dirvish and got his dyspraxic self entangled in the legs of a ladder back chair during the fun and merriment and expelled his anal glands


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## dilbert (29 December 2011)

My SBT boy (nearly 12mths old) is crated at night, if he needs the loo he cries and I let him out. His crate is nice and cosy (its the biggest size) and has a dog bed, 2 fleece dressing gowns, fleecy blanket and any other bits he takes a fancy too! My SBT girl who is a long time hater of crates sneaks in there as often as she can so it can't be a bad thing.

The girls sleep with me but the wee man is still a tad destructive (a lot later maturing than the girls.) On occassions he has slept with me but he wakes me up half way through the night to go downstairs to his crate. Wee wierdo.


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## Alec Swan (29 December 2011)

RutlandH2O said:



			Taking a baby pup to bed for a little while...of course I approve!!
		
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To use your word,  Phew!! 

Weaning must be a gradual process.  What we permit from an 8 week old puppy,  we don't permit from a 10 week old.  What we permit from a 12 week old,  we don't permit from one which is 20 weeks,  and so on.......  By the time a puppy is 8 months,  and dependent on the breed or its planned for discipline,  I would expect a reasonable level of compliance,  but WITHOUT anything restrictive being done.  From my limited experience,  those puppies which are expected to hold,  to a long down at 6-7-8 months,  will throw the lot in the trainer's face,  by the time that they are 2 years old.  Others will have success with early discipline of their puppy,  but that hasn't been my experience,  ever.

Alec.


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## Kaylum (29 December 2011)

Alarm clock and hot water bottle we used, we didnt have heat pads.  making the bed a nice place they want to go instead of a place they have to go.  Plus the cat is usually in there as well.  Anyway each to their own.  As already said.  Its funny how some people cant accept other ways of dog ownership and think theirs is always the best way!  I dont have a problem with crates I just prefer to train my dogs to respect their home surroundings.  The thinking to this crate training I guess is the same as the traditional method where they wont go to the toilet in their own beds.


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## LadyRascasse (29 December 2011)

Well my puppy spends all night in the kitchen with the door closed, by choice he spends most of that time in his crate (door open so he can come and go as he pleases) when he comes to work with me he is shut in his crate for 2 hours at a time. His crate is like his bedroom not something i lock him in unless i have to (i.e at work) he is only 11 weeks so we leave him a toilet area in the kitchen for him to use (puppy pad and newspaper) but generally he chooses to cross his legs from about 10pm to 7 am.


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## Alec Swan (29 December 2011)

Kaylum said:



			Alarm clock and hot water bottle we used, we didnt have heat pads.  making the bed a nice place they want to go instead of a place they have to go.  Plus the cat is usually in there as well. .......
		
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Back in the early '70s,  there was a monster of a man,  a 'keeper on a Northumberland grouse moor.  All that his wife had ever wanted,  was a Chihuahua puppy,  so young Duncan,  having tallied up his season't tips,  went out and laid out a staggering £250 for a puppy.

The puppy duly arrived home,  and for its first night,  it had a bed made in front of the Rayburn,  complete with a hot water bottle,  and the cat for company.

Imagine their surprise,  when they came down in the morning,  early mind,  and couldn't find the puppy anywhere.  Eventually they found the back feet of the puppy,  under the table.  You've got it,  the cat had eaten it!! 

To his credit,  Duncan reported the facts to us,  with a degree of glee,  and I understand,  the cat survived the experience,  but only because his wife was equally fond of the creature!! 

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (29 December 2011)

I think we dubbed it CrateGate last time, it got so heated


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## Alec Swan (29 December 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			I think we dubbed it CrateGate last time, it got so heated 

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Very good! 

In my defence,  I've not yet told others that they're wrong,  only that I don't always agree,  and that in itself,  is what discussion's about.  Yes? No?

Whilst,  of course there are times when a house bound cage may be of use,  the blanket use of them,  in my view,  is needless.

Would anyone prefer that I now _Flounce Off_? I will, if you wish. 

Alec.


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## Blanche (30 December 2011)

Read this all last night on my phone but might have to go and find the Crategate  thread cos I want to see who flounces!


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## flashmans (30 December 2011)

Haven't read all the posts, but agree with the majority. My border collie was crated overnight a couple of years ago, she would have been 2 or 3?, purely to stop her going to the toilet in the house overnight. The cage was left open during the day and she used that as her bed most of the time, so she was perfectly happy sleeping in it at night. She was let out for toilet last thing at night, about 11ish and then again first thing in the morning at about half 6/7ish. I think it worked really well as a toilet training method and haven't had any more accidents in the house! (touch wood!)


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## CorvusCorax (30 December 2011)

There was actually Crategate II where there is reference to Crategate and Cayla's Mam so this would be Crategate III


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## Ranyhyn (30 December 2011)

I crate trained my jrts from the time they came to me, it started off with a short time with a treat and built it up, they were never SHUT in there as punishment etc but the rest of the room was kept uncomfy and in there was their bed and chews and it was covered with a blanket - cave-a-licious!!!  Eventually at the age of about a year they would actually take themselves off to bed at about 10pm and happilly stay there all night.  Clean.
Sometimes I'd get up early and let them out - sometimes I'd have a lay in and let them out at 9am.  Either way they were always happy and clean.
Now I don't use it any longer as I have a designated dog-room for them which they by and large keep clean.  However, I drag the crate out now and again and get them used to it.  You never know when circumstances can change.
Great piece of kit.


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## Alec Swan (30 December 2011)

Ostrich said:



			Good old HHO - same old topics, just different people 

Ahhhh for the good old days, I am trying to remember who used to post in here when I first joined, things have changed so much...

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So the good old days were back when,  4 months ago?  How strange,  or is it?

Alec.


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## quirky (30 December 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			So the good old days were back when,  4 months ago?  How strange,  or is it?

Alec.
		
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 O has been on HHO since Noah launched his Ark, don't let the join date confuse you .


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## quirky (30 December 2011)

Ostrich said:



			Try look at the user name Acolyte - that was my original one, I joined in 2005 as I recall - you newbies wont know that of course 

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Have you always been so obnoxious, or is this a new thing ?


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## quirky (30 December 2011)

Ostrich said:



			Of course I have always been this obnoxious, that is just one of the many reasons I have had so many user names 

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 ... I quoted the wrong person .

I think I'll disappear before I get myself into (more) trouble


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## TGM (30 December 2011)

Kaylum said:



			Its funny how some people cant accept other ways of dog ownership and think theirs is always the best way!  I dont have a problem with crates I just prefer to train my dogs to respect their home surroundings.
		
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I'm quite happy to accept that many owners don't want to crate their own pets and if it works for their circumstances and the animals and owners are safe and happy that is fine.  But what worries me is that when some people are so anti-crate that they try and discourage other people from using them, by suggesting they are unkind or a 'lazy dog-owners' tool.  Chewing and house soiling are probably one of the main problems that results in dogs being passed from home to home, so if intelligent use of a crate as part of the training process can prevent that, then I would hate people to be put off using them.


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## CAYLA (30 December 2011)

TGM said:



			I'm quite happy to accept that many owners don't want to crate their own pets and if it works for their circumstances and the animals and owners are safe and happy that is fine.  But what worries me is that when some people are so anti-crate that they try and discourage other people from using them, by suggesting they are unkind or a 'lazy dog-owners' tool.  Chewing and house soiling are probably one of the main problems that results in dogs being passed from home to home, so if intelligent use of a crate as part of the training process can prevent that, then I would hate people to be put off using them.
		
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This^^^^^ exactly.


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## CAYLA (30 December 2011)

Ostrich said:



			Wasnt Crategate the thread where Cayla had to threaten us with her mum to make us behave? 

Click to expand...

Erm NO! it was more " I will only speak to your mammy"


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## FrodoBeutlin (30 December 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Well I hope you leave the radio on and give him a stuffed Kong, you bad, bad mummy  

Baldy blows kisses to Beezle, by the way x
		
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Ooooh I had missed this! Yeah Frodo would actually LOVE a stuffed Kong  I wonder if they come in horse sizes?

Beezle sends him this photo - just taken right now


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## Lady La La (30 December 2011)

I love my crate...
Before I took up the crate way of life, Tyson singled paw-edly destroyed one kitchen floor (cheap lino, which he ate) one washing machine, two kettles, one cheese grater, several knives forks and spoons, two sky remotes, one whole sofa (I have picture evidence of this) several dog beds, one living room wall, lots of wall paper, 3 pairs of my OH's spectacles (yes, I did just call them spectacles) and several pictures of my deceased horse. 

Now, he's left alone in the house all morning, has his lunch time walk and is then crated for a few hours in the afternoon and in the last year, all the destruction list consists of is, one pair of anky bandages and one wedding photo.

Not too shabby


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## SusieT (30 December 2011)

It's a very clever piece of marketing that says the cage is a 'crate', or a 'safe place' or a 'den'. None of my dogs go looking for dark corners to hide in. My terriers are not wolves. Look at those beagles who were rescued, terrified to leave their cages because they knew of nothing else. I would argue that that is insitutionalisation-not something I wish to carry out routinely on my dogs.


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## Ranyhyn (30 December 2011)

SusieT said:



			None of my dogs go looking for dark corners to hide in. My terriers are not wolves.
		
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It's a clear case of every dog is an individual.  My two terriers bolt for any possible dark/ snuggly place!  they love to be under a duvet or blanket and the only place to achieve that was in their crate!


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## CorvusCorax (30 December 2011)

Yes but those beagles never got out of their cages.
Looking forward to taking my 'institutionalised' dog for a run on the beach tonight as usual 

ETA I see those who use crates don't feel the need to label those who don't as 'too stupid to realise how a crate works properly' but are supposed to accept being called lazy, can't be bothered nutters who institutionalise their dogs  because that would be wrong, and rude, wouldn't it?


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## Murphy88 (30 December 2011)

Christmassy_Clover said:



			It's a clear case of every dog is an individual.  My two terriers bolt for any possible dark/ snuggly place!  they love to be under a duvet or blanket and the only place to achieve that was in their crate!
		
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This ^^. Pickle won't settle in the living room in the evenings unless he has a cat bed/blanket on his head, he digs up anything he can find to cover himself if a cat bed isn't available.

I fail to see how we are 'institutionalising' him though. After his walk today I left him loose in the kitchen and went upstairs, when I came back down he was asleep in his cage, of his own free will. He puts himself in his cage at bedtime, and I follow and give him a treat and shut the door. I have to wake him in the morning, he sleeps til 8.30 without a peep. But if anyone wishes to rescue the poor ickle thing from my evil clutches, feel free, I can put him in the post tomorrow.


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## Ranyhyn (30 December 2011)

It's because you brainwashed him into thinking that's right... I think that's the upshot?
Maybe so, but dogs are brainwashed into not taking a shite on the couch.  Sure, they don't care if they do or don't - but I'd rather they didn't.  So I brainwash/institutionalise them into going outside.


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## katie4002 (30 December 2011)

I love my crate - Thanks to Cayla for her help and advice!! 

New rescue dog had wee'd or poo'd on the floor (shut in the kitchen with other dog) every night for four weeks straight, no matter how late we took him out or how early we got up - one night due to work we were only in bed for four hours - he'd toilet inside. The except was three nights when brother was staying and sleeping in lounge next to the kitchen = no toilet.

Picked up crate yesterday, intending to introduce gradually. Set it up in the morning, he was in and out (of his own accord!) all day. After afternoon walk, he had dinner in crate and then went straight in and fell asleep all evening. Took him out last thing, he went back into crate. Shut the door, covered him up, and he slept soundly all night, no noise and best of all no mess.

And he's been back in there today (along with the other dog I might add!!) sleeping with the door open. 

Happy dog and happy owners!


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## SusieT (30 December 2011)

Regardless-they stayed in theri crates of their 'own free will' obviously that is an acceptable thing then? At what point does it become wrong?


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## Dobiegirl (30 December 2011)

Cratedebate/gate started just after I joined but didnt instigate, I did put in my 2psworth though and "me mammys rescue" will live long in the memory.

Perhaps Im jumping to conclusions here but I cant help thinking a couple of posters who are anti crate might be older than the average poster. I was always taught it is pointless getting older if you dont get wiser and always keep an open mind. Before you jump on me and accuse me of being ageist I am probabley one of the oldest on this forum just ask Cayla(she kept tripping over my zimmer frame). As to my user name Dobiewoman/Dobielady/DobieOAP didnt sound as nice as Dobiegirl

The last time I had puppies was in the 1990s and now having our new pup times have moved on and our Pip uses a crate which has made toilet training so easy. The secret is to train them to use their crate and use it as their bed. Everywhere she goes travelling she uses her crate, in strange houses with children and other dogs and that is her security .

Frodo what a lovely pic of Beezle and you have sunshine Ive almost forgotten what that is.


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## RutlandH2O (30 December 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			Yes but those beagles never got out of their cages.
Looking forward to taking my 'institutionalised' dog for a run on the beach tonight as usual 

ETA I see those who use crates don't feel the need to label those who don't as 'too stupid to realise how a crate works properly' but are supposed to accept being called lazy, can't be bothered nutters who institutionalise their dogs  because that would be wrong, and rude, wouldn't it? 

Click to expand...

^^^^^^Bravo! And, thank you!!


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## CAYLA (30 December 2011)

katie4002 said:



			I love my crate - Thanks to Cayla for her help and advice!! 

New rescue dog had wee'd or poo'd on the floor (shut in the kitchen with other dog) every night for four weeks straight, no matter how late we took him out or how early we got up - one night due to work we were only in bed for four hours - he'd toilet inside. The except was three nights when brother was staying and sleeping in lounge next to the kitchen = no toilet.

Picked up crate yesterday, intending to introduce gradually. Set it up in the morning, he was in and out (of his own accord!) all day. After afternoon walk, he had dinner in crate and then went straight in and fell asleep all evening. Took him out last thing, he went back into crate. Shut the door, covered him up, and he slept soundly all night, no noise and best of all no mess.

And he's been back in there today (along with the other dog I might add!!) sleeping with the door open. 

Happy dog and happy owners!
		
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 I am especially glad to hear that.....may peace and cleanliness presume and he stay with you and your lovely family for offering him a place to crash you have clearly done what previous homes did not bother too "seek help/advice" and help him any way you can in order to keep him in a loving secure home 
Regardless of what opinions are of crates. I for one know they are/can be an invaluable tool to help owners and insecure dogs get over many a hurdle to help them become a more confident and settled animal in a new environment, no point me explaining to indepthly (those I have sent guides to or spoke to may understand), I guess a long journey and some eye opening experiences got me there  and the ability to understand exactly what "an owner" experiencing "certain behaviours" are going through and I am so glad it helps others and prevents more dogs landing back where they came from

Now where are our piccies of this doggi


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## CAYLA (30 December 2011)

Dobiegirl said:



			Cratedebate/gate started just after I joined but didnt instigate, I did put in my 2psworth though and "me mammys rescue" will live long in the memory.

Perhaps Im jumping to conclusions here but I cant help thinking a couple of posters who are anti crate might be older than the average poster. I was always taught it is pointless getting older if you dont get wiser and always keep an open mind. Before you jump on me and accuse me of being ageist I am probabley one of the oldest on this forum just ask Cayla(she kept tripping over my zimmer frame). As to my user name Dobiewoman/Dobielady/DobieOAP didnt sound as nice as Dobiegirl

The last time I had puppies was in the 1990s and now having our new pup times have moved on and our Pip uses a crate which has made toilet training so easy. The secret is to train them to use their crate and use it as their bed. Everywhere she goes travelling she uses her crate, in strange houses with children and other dogs and that is her security .

Frodo what a lovely pic of Beezle and you have sunshine Ive almost forgotten what that is.

Click to expand...

Very wise words from such a decrepit old lady




I very much doubt you are one of the oldest on the forum DG you are well hyper and full of the joys of spring and fecking hilarious though


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## katie4002 (30 December 2011)

CAYLA said:



 I am especially glad to hear that.....may peace and cleanliness presume and he stay with you and your lovely family for offering him a place to crash you have clearly done what previous homes did not bother too "seek help/advice" and help him any way you can in order to keep him in a loving secure home 
Regardless of what opinions are of crates. I for one know they are/can be an invaluable tool to help owners and insecure dogs get over many a hurdle to help them become a more confident and settled animal in a new environment, no point me explaining to indepthly (those I have sent guides to or spoke to may understand), I guess a long journey and some eye opening experiences got me there  and the ability to understand exactly what "an owner" experiencing "certain behaviours" are going through and I am so glad it helps others and prevents more dogs landing back where they came from

Now where are our piccies of this doggi

Click to expand...

Just posted some in new thread


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## RutlandH2O (30 December 2011)

SusieT said:



			It's a very clever piece of marketing that says the cage is a 'crate', or a 'safe place' or a 'den'. None of my dogs go looking for dark corners to hide in. My terriers are not wolves. Look at those beagles who were rescued, terrified to leave their cages because they knew of nothing else. I would argue that that is insitutionalisation-not something I wish to carry out routinely on my dogs.
		
Click to expand...

"Crate," "safe place," and "den" are not marketing blurbs for cages. They are terms of fact. Those rescued beagles WERE institutionalised, as they would have been if they had never been outside of a kitchen or shed, uncrated. The appropriate use of a crate as a training aid and secure haven works because dogs are denning animals. No one is suggesting that all dogs be crated all the time. Think again. Without wolves, you wouldn't have your terriers.


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## SusieT (30 December 2011)

No they are like us calling horses stables, stables rather than confined area. Not 'fact'. It is a cage. Pure and simple. People don't like to call it that. When we realise that instead of trying to call it a pretty name then you can move forward. But what difference is there between those beagles and dogs who sleep in their crate and are crated whilst owners are out at work? Both would remain in their crates with the door open...


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## SusieT (30 December 2011)

Bet their grateful when they spend 16+hours in a cage. I am making the point that whilst they may seem 'happy' in their cages leading owners to think they are dealing fine with the confinement., like the beagles who also look 'happy' in their cages the situation is not one that should be aspired to.
I would be very disappointed in my training if I could not train my dog to be safe and happy left in a house. Otherwise I would suspect my dog if therefore unhappy and unsatisfied in some way.


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## SusieT (30 December 2011)

How did new puppy owners ever cope without cages..


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## CAYLA (30 December 2011)

Ostrich said:



			I DO call it a cage - it is only on here I call it a crate or people dont know what I am talking about 

The difference SusieT is that the beagles know nothing else but their life in a cage - dogs who sleep in a cage, or are put in one whilst their owner is out, have other experiences in their lives like dog walks, playing, toys etc 

Click to expand...

I too always called them cage until I came here you weird bunch
The beagles lives in their cages 24/7 and proabbly pass their motions in a tray below, like battery hens, so they never get walked or go for car rides, or go to the beach like floofy or lounge on the settee when owner is home, or go to training class or go to the dog park or field....there is a huge difference.

A stable used the same way would be the difference of keeping a horse in 24/7 and chucking hay over the door like the picture someone once posted where the horse was literally standing on its own ****** and you could only see the horses feet when the door was opened the crap was piled so high.
OR
A horse temp stabled for illness/rest, or a one kept in one at night but released to a field or walked during the day or being ridden inbetween periods in the stable.

A rabbit kept in a hutch 24/7 or a rabbit in a hutch at night or when unsupervised for safety but otherwise has the run of the garden or comes in for periods inside the house.

All of the above can be abused and become a prison and they can also provide an invaluable tool in keeping animals.


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## blackcob (30 December 2011)

SusieT said:



			How did new puppy owners ever cope without cages..
		
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One of my old school friends came to visit a while ago and was taken aback by the admittedly pretty huge 48" crate taking up one corner of the living room. She was so disparaging, "that's so cruel, I can't believe you'd put your dog in a cage" etc (unable to grasp that the door hadn't been shut in, ooh, six months at that point, and never since). 

So I says, oh, what did you you do with your dogs as puppies then? Knowing full well that the answer was that her dad took the door off the pantry, leading off the kitchen, and put a board across the door to make a small pen. A bed was put in there, chews and toys, the radio left on in the kitchen. Pup went in the pantry whenever the family were out, at night time, enforced quiet/nap time, when there were too many exciting visitors etc... so, erm, that would be the same as a crate then. 

She refused to concede the point as she couldn't see beyond the 'OMG it's a CAGE'. 

Before I had the cage I wasn't coping at all with the piss and crap all over the floor, the skirting stripped out of the kitchen, the chewed wooden stairs, the spilt and raided kitchen bin among other things (the chewed up £20 note was a low point, as was the ingestion of a large amount of raisin cereal ).


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## RutlandH2O (30 December 2011)

SusieT said:



			No they are like us calling horses stables, stables rather than confined area. Not 'fact'. It is a cage. Pure and simple. People don't like to call it that. When we realise that instead of trying to call it a pretty name then you can move forward. But what difference is there between those beagles and dogs who sleep in their crate and are crated whilst owners are out at work? Both would remain in their crates with the door open...
		
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I'm afraid you are playing semantics. Cage, crate, stable, confined area...which ones are pretty names? A cage is a crate and a stable is a confined area. And moving forward?? The difference between the beagles and dogs that sleep in their crates with the doors open is that the beagles know nothing else, the dogs go in by choice. I do believe you should move forward toward a clear understanding of the correct use of a crate, cage, pen, confined area in the responsible training and protection of young dogs.


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## CAYLA (30 December 2011)

Lol BC my mam used to use the pantry when we where younger for pups to stay when we where out and indeed people still used other "tools" of confinement, be it an outdoor kennel, or literally putting pup/dog outside to scream the place down or a large box/plastic crate.
Or shutting them in a room to scream, bark and cry and literally only do it when they went out and leave no stimulation and have the pup wee/pooh and little else as the room would have been stripped of everything as the pup will already have killed it
OR take the puppy everywhere they went and created the mother of all seperation anxieties, until eventually the pup grew out of the behaviours after years of stress or got rid of or ended up in a rescue center where alot of them do
OR let them roam the roads that was an effective way to keep the house intact many years back (the latch key dog)

At the rate we are breeding dogs these days, they cannot be passed on the way in which they used to and kennels are brimming so why not educate and help people and do it in a sensible manor in order to help them keep their/a dog, and even better start from a puppy and never even experience the probelsm in the first instance.


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## MurphysMinder (30 December 2011)

SusieT,  I have reared and trained many more puppies without cages (like others I only call them crates on here cos others do) than I have with cages.  We had chewed furniture etc for many years, my kitchen door still bears the teeth marks of a several members of my canine family.  I was quite anti cages when they first started appearing, like you I used to think it was a lazy way of doing things.  Then a very good friend and experienced trainer had a pup from me, and because the pup was going to be going to work with her in an office, she was cage trained from the start.  I was so impressed with the way she took to the cage, and how quickly she became completely house trained that I used one for the next pup I kept, and have used them for each puppy since.  
My mum always said no matter how long you were in dogs you never stopped learning till the day you die,  she wasn't too impressed when I first used a cage for a pup, but she saw how well they worked, and if she were still around I have no doubt she would encompass cage training with great gusto.


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## Murphy88 (30 December 2011)

SusieT said:



			Bet their grateful when they spend 16+hours in a cage. I am making the point that whilst they may seem 'happy' in their cages leading owners to think they are dealing fine with the confinement., like the beagles who also look 'happy' in their cages the situation is not one that should be aspired to.
I would be very disappointed in my training if I could not train my dog to be safe and happy left in a house. Otherwise I would suspect my dog if therefore unhappy and unsatisfied in some way.
		
Click to expand...

I think you'll find I said cage in my earlier post. As for training, as I said, feel free to borrow Pickle, I expect him to be returned as a magical super puppy who does no wrong. Unfortunately, with only my inferior training, he is a mischievious, hyper puppy, who displays what I consider to be normal puppy behaviour.

Out of interest, how would you approach the following problems that would arise were he not crated overnight?
1. He adores our other dog, and wants to play most of the time. He is of a working breed that is known to have attitude, and his play is energetic and rough. Which is fine, until our 30kg GSD decided she is fed up of the 5kg puppy all night and bites back. I fail to see how you are supposed to train the play instinct out of a puppy, he is told off by Evie but will generally just keep going back. Our last heeler spent the last few years of her life locked away from our GSDs after a play fight turned serious, once GSD had had enough they could never be together again.
2. He chews wires - has pulled the telephone in kitchen off window ledge via cable and chewed it. This seems to be a quick way to electrocution. 
3. He chews beds (only when he is loose), tea towels and hand towels. Tea towels are put on work surface, but he can jump up and reach them (along with anything else he can reach, today he got a poo bag off side and shredded it). He will leave things immediately when asked, but not a lot of use overnight when we're not there to give command.

I accept that everyone has different ways of doing things, however I do take offence to the assumption that because I use a cage my dog is unhappy. He chooses to sleep in there when loose in the kitchen because it is his bed and he likes it, same as if it were a normal bed - however I do believe he wouldn't like that as much, he likes the security of being covered, this evening he bounced around sofa until I threw a bed on his head then he disappeared from sight and hasn't woken since!


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## Dobiegirl (30 December 2011)

With our last 2 puppies back in the 1990s we went out for 2 hours, the pups were left with lots of toys but this was before the advent of cages. When we came back we couldnt get in the door because they had chewed the vinyl and rolled it against the door. My husband was none too pleased as he had only put it down the week before and it was expensive.

Our latest pup has used her cage from day 1 and we have had no problems with her chewing, used correctly they are amazing.

I dont know of anyone who leaves their dog  for 16hours in a cage so dont know who you are referring to Susie.


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## s4sugar (30 December 2011)

I've used cages for travelling & shows since I first showed a terrier in the 1980's.

I don't know anyone who has ever used them for longer than about 8 hours overnight or for a few hours if left during the day.

Just because a few people use them incorrectly or inappropriately doesn't make crates a poor option. 
It is people who don't know how to use them or that shriek Uuurgh a cage that condemn a lot of dogs to get dumped rather than worked with.
Just this month an hour of training and the loan of one of my crates allowed a young bitch to remain in the home who'd had her from eight weeks rather than come into breed rescue.

Tools are tools - a hammer is lethal if used as a weapon.


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## Alec Swan (30 December 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			....... so this would be Crategate III 

Click to expand...

You may well be right,  just don't blame me!! 

Alec.


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## paisley (30 December 2011)

CaveCanem said:



			There was actually Crategate II where there is reference to Crategate and Cayla's Mam so this would be Crategate III 

Click to expand...

Coming to AAD this summer: 'CrateGate IV- Wrath of Cayla's Mammy'

Also available in 3D


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## Dobiegirl (30 December 2011)

paisley said:



			Coming to AAD this summer: 'CrateGate IV- Wrath of Cayla's Mammy'

Also available in 3D 

Click to expand...

I think Caylas Mammy is a mythCayla always said she was coming on AAD but she never did, perhaps she is a figment of Caylas highly over active imagination, perhaps Cayla is a orphen


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## Alec Swan (30 December 2011)

s4sugar said:



			.......
Tools are tools - .......
		
Click to expand...

Never a truer word! 

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (30 December 2011)

Mine isn't a cage, so I won't call it one, it's made of bloody plastic.


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## Dobiegirl (30 December 2011)

Norman Bates I am not, it was said very much tongue in cheek, Im sure Cayla will get it.


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## CorvusCorax (30 December 2011)

No, no, there are no psychos in this thread, honest


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## blackcob (30 December 2011)

It's a box in our house. "Daxy, inyerbox." 

Adopted from our friend who has working spaniels in outside kennels, the dogs have to sit on their boxes before bowls are put down, the 'onyerbox' command always tickled me for some reason. Just the sight of a row of anticipatory spangles quivering on their kennels.


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## Pix (30 December 2011)

So, in summary; Cayla is Norman Bates, and Alec thinks you're all tools. 

It's not the greatest Crategate (it's missing the classic "begone grown woman, go fetch thy Mammy, I shall speak only with her" theme) but as sequels go, it's not too shabby.


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## Pix (30 December 2011)

baublecob said:



			It's a box in our house. "Daxy, inyerbox." 

Adopted from our friend who has working spaniels in outside kennels, the dogs have to sit on their boxes before bowls are put down, the 'onyerbox' command always tickled me for some reason. Just the sight of a row of anticipatory spangles quivering on their kennels. 

Click to expand...

It's a mancave here. As in, "where's Loki? Oh, he chillin' in his mancave".


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## Dobiegirl (30 December 2011)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=432612&highlight=crate+training 

I think this was the one enjoy.


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## Alec Swan (30 December 2011)

Pix said:



			......., and Alec thinks you're all tools. 

.......
		
Click to expand...

Neither what I said,  nor intended.  Those who would disrupt reasoned debate,  or refuse to consider the views of others,  or turn this discussion into a "****gate",  well that's a different matter. Those who would derail debate,  with puerile comments,  do nothing to further our understanding of the others views. 

I've listened to those with reasoned arguments,  and can see that for them,  if not for me,  then putting dogs in cages _may_ have some merit.  I feel that those dogs which live in a home,  with humans,  and are shut in cages,  when they could be in human company,  should learn how to fit in,  with us.  I do feel that,  whilst not for all,  but for many,  a cage is a convenience,  and that's it really.

Some (the barest few!) will agree with me.  The majority seem not to.  Nobody's right or wrong,  we just have freedom of choice.

Alec.


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## CorvusCorax (30 December 2011)

My eyes are bleeding.


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## Pix (30 December 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			Never a truer word! 

Alec. 

Click to expand...

Your reply to another poster, with the quote "tools are tools" attached. Given the winking smiley, it's ambiguous enough for me to take it in at least two contexts, one of which can be used for a joke.



Alec Swan said:



			Neither what I said,  nor intended.  Those who would disrupt reasoned debate,  or refuse to consider the views of others,  or turn this discussion into a "****gate",  well that's a different matter. Those who would derail debate,  with puerile comments,  do nothing to further our understanding of the others views. 

I've listened to those with reasoned arguments,  and can see that for them,  if not for me,  then putting dogs in cages _may_ have some merit.  I feel that those dogs which live in a home,  with humans,  and are shut in cages,  when they could be in human company,  should learn how to fit in,  with us.  I do feel that,  whilst not for all,  but for many,  a cage is a convenience,  and that's it really.

Some (the barest few!) will agree with me.  The majority seem not to.  Nobody's right or wrong,  we just have freedom of choice.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Settle down. The very fact that my post was "puerile" and "derailing" should hint that you need not take it seriously nor feel the need to defend your point of view, or, for that matter, your conduct in the discussion. I already know that you respect others differing opinions- it shines through in your posts. 

This is the third or fourth discussion of crates/cages on this forum alone. It is but one of millions on the wider net. Forgive me if I choose to jest rather than reiterate points that are already eloquently made.


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## Dobiegirl (30 December 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			Neither what I said,  nor intended.  Those who would disrupt reasoned debate,  or refuse to consider the views of others,  or turn this discussion into a "****gate",  well that's a different matter. Those who would derail debate,  with puerile comments,  do nothing to further our understanding of the others views. 

I've listened to those with reasoned arguments,  and can see that for them,  if not for me,  then putting dogs in cages _may_ have some merit.  I feel that those dogs which live in a home,  with humans,  and are shut in cages,  when they could be in human company,  should learn how to fit in,  with us.  I do feel that,  whilst not for all,  but for many,  a cage is a convenience,  and that's it really.

Some (the barest few!) will agree with me.  The majority seem not to.  Nobody's right or wrong,  we just have freedom of choice.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

You have misunderstood but I dont remember anyone shutting their dogs in cages when they are home and as for a cage  being a convenience I fail to understand how you can come to that conclusion. Our pup is only caged at night and when I go out for a couple of hours. I wouldnt leave her loose with my 2 Dobes unattended because if they all decide to play they can get rough and she is only little.

I dont have a problem with you not liking cages after all that is your perogative(sp).


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## CorvusCorax (30 December 2011)

I've gone from not crating in CGI, to partially crating in CGII to full blown convert in CGIII 
So that's raw feeding and crate training I can blame this forum for


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## Alec Swan (31 December 2011)

Pix & Dobiegirl,

thanks for your replies.  No harm done,  I hope.

It's well past my bedtime,  so I'm now off to my own kingsized crate. 

Night night.

Alec.


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## MrsMozart (31 December 2011)

Our new pup is choosing to go in her cage/crate/penthouse suite . She's in there at night, for about seven hours-ish, and for about two hours in total during the day, part of which is her choice.

If she wasn't in the cage she would have chewed wires and disappeared up a fireplace by now. Add the pack of Shih Tzus and I really wouldn't rate her chances of still being alive in the morning if she wasn't safe in her own spot  

As she gets older and bigger things will change to keep pace with her then levels of understanding and training


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## Pix (31 December 2011)

Alec Swan said:



			Pix & Dobiegirl,

thanks for your replies.  No harm done,  I hope.

It's well past my bedtime,  so I'm now off to my own kingsized crate. 

Night night.

Alec.
		
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That's quite OK, you're more than welcome to my reply, and absolutely no harm done. 

(secretly envious of your kingsized crate. Mine's a mere average double, and as my 40kg GSD occasionally opts to snuggle next to me rather than in his bed/cage when the weather is very cold... well, I could do with an upgrade!)


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## Blanche (31 December 2011)

Wow Crategate is mighty interesting ! Usually get bored when posts get long as they usually get very insulting but this is quite pleasant . I've never crated a dog but wouldn't rule it out for the future . The trouble with forums like this you hear about when things go tits up . I've never had a dog eat razor blades , lingerie , hosiery , sofas etc and now I shall be paranoid . I could have done with a dog eating a sofa or two I've had as they were hideous and then I could have got a new one , but would they oblige ,would they heckers like !! I must admit years and years ago I had a friend ( could have been the sister of Ostrich as they seem freakily similar!) who crated a dog of hers . Most of the cavs were kenneled outside but some did live indoors and one young dog was crated and it was the first time I had seen it . The dog was quite happy though and very relaxed about going in , so I got over myself ! If I do decide to crate a new dog I'll have to get Caylas guide to help . Not so worried about training the dog its training me I'm worried about as I'm an old fart whos next significant Bday will be the big 50, though have a couple of years yet !


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## Serephin (31 December 2011)

I haven't read the whole post but I crate my puppy at night - there is no way I would trust her in the house on her own at night, the place would be a bomb site!  Plus we have two cats, who would be horrified if she was allowed to be free range at night.

Leave her alone in the kitchen for 5 mins and she has broken into the toilet and trashed the loo roll and cavorted around the kitchen with the hand towel.  Taken out all the plastic bags and shredded them etc etc.

Her crate is cosy and she has all her toys in there with her, radio left on.  She is with us all day at work and the majority of the evening, so bedtime in the crate is no big deal if you ask me.


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## Inthemud (31 December 2011)

I am using a crate/ cage for the first time (on the advice of pup's breeder) and am an instant fan.

Pup trots unto her crate at night perfectly happily and we don't hear a peep from her until morning.

I also have a cage in the kitchen, for occasional use when I'm cooking, or when the kids are eating, or if I go out for a couple of hours. Pup spends quite a lot of time in there with the door open, of her own accord (kitchen is warmest room in the house). 

To me, a crate is a very useful tool. It helps our training as we can all keep things calm and because of that, there is lots of opportunity for positive outcomes to praise.

Some people may misuse crates, but that goes for any tools.


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