# ?Puppy farming, WWYD



## millikins (23 October 2017)

My daughter is thinking of buying a "puggle". She and her OH have seen an ad for 9 puppies, 8 weeks old. The address is a local traveller site, apparently the father can be seen but the mother was "run over" when the pups were 2 weeks old and they have been hand reared. Pics of mother show her to look at least middle aged with a grey muzzle. I have said steer well clear but would there be cause to ask RSPCA to check as my suspicious mind thinks mother was probably removed so she could be bred from again sooner. Is puppy farming actually illegal or just unethical?


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## Snuffles (23 October 2017)

I doubt whether the RSPCA would risk a visit to be honest !


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## millikins (23 October 2017)

Snuffles said:



			I doubt whether the RSPCA would risk a visit to be honest !
		
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Sad isn't it  Welfare laws only apply to owners who don't put up a fight.


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## meleeka (23 October 2017)

Id still phone them. Sadly puppy farming is very much alive and well in the travelling community


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## CorvusCorax (23 October 2017)

HMRC is always a better bet with puppy farmers and backyard breeders.


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## Clodagh (23 October 2017)

They could be stolen? I do hope your daughter resists.


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## AdorableAlice (23 October 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			HMRC is always a better bet with puppy farmers and backyard breeders.
		
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From a taxation point ? they won't be interested in animal welfare.  Most if not all, traveller sites will be viewed as anarchy by the regulators and given the non existent resources that the regulators are currently working under, there is very little chance of anything being done.


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## CorvusCorax (23 October 2017)

Well, clearly from point of tax and not animal welfare. If they have food, water and shelter there is little the latter will do.
I wouldn't have mentioned it if I didn't have personal experience that it has worked

To add, a hole dug under a caravan to which a dog was chained has in the past been deemed adequate shelter in my locality.


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## millikins (23 October 2017)

CorvusCorax said:



			HMRC is always a better bet with puppy farmers and backyard breeders.
		
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Thanks for that, the site is a registered one so not much travelling happens and might get a result. The seller is now sending abusive texts because they didn't confirm a viewing, not even a no show.


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## Pearlsasinger (23 October 2017)

millikins said:



			Thanks for that, the site is a registered one so not much travelling happens and might get a result. The seller is now sending abusive texts because they didn't confirm a viewing, not even a no show.
		
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Well, I guess that has put the prospective buyers off!  Hardly the way to do business, regardless of what that business is.  I wish that people would not buy these ridiculous crossbreeds that are sold for crazy sums anyway.


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## Cinnamontoast (23 October 2017)

Wouldn't go near a traveller for a puppy. The OH's colleague showed us a picture of a puppy his family got cheap as a farm dog a few weeks ago. It's definitely a puggle!


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## millikins (23 October 2017)

They won't buy, the post code had already put them off before they asked me, it's just whether anything should or could be done to stop it, IF they are puppy farming.


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## Cinnamontoast (23 October 2017)

Are they puppy farming, tho? Or is it a one off litter they've deliberately done given how much this cross goes for? I mean, there are huge puppy farms in Wales, all licensed and apparently fine, so I'm wondering if the RSPCA will care?


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## millikins (24 October 2017)

cinnamontoast said:



			Are they puppy farming, tho? Or is it a one off litter they've deliberately done given how much this cross goes for? I mean, there are huge puppy farms in Wales, all licensed and apparently fine, so I'm wondering if the RSPCA will care?
		
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Probably not. I have no real evidence do I, just a hunch.


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## Cahill (24 October 2017)

imo would not give money to these `breeders`as just encouraging to do the same again.


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## GirlFriday (24 October 2017)

millikins said:



			Probably not. I have no real evidence do I, just a hunch.
		
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Exactly. Plenty of foals belonging to forum members on here are weaned earlier than I'd personally like, but, that doesn't get anywhere near how I feel about embryo transfer as an option... animal abuse (to my mind, wonderful new technologies or efficiency etc from another valid view point) happens at all levels in society.

And TBH if you spend time looking at small ads in any format, and for pretty much any thing, you'd find plenty of stuff happening that ought to be reported to _someone_ if only there was any real evidence at all.


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## Alec Swan (24 October 2017)

millikins said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. my suspicious mind thinks mother was probably removed so she could be bred from again sooner. Is puppy farming actually illegal or just unethical?
		
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Removing the bitch from her pups early wouldn't have any significant affect upon her breeding cycle,  or at least not that it would be worth it considering the work and effort needed to hand rear the litter.

Puppy farming isn't illegal,  though there are statutory requirements that those who keep 5 or more (is that the right figure?) of brood bitches need to register their interests.

The rspca won't go anywhere near the site,  as it's unlikely that the laws have been broken and even if they have,  they'll be sent packing!  Travellers know exactly how to deal with anyone in a uniform!

HMRC? I suspect that app 5% of Travellers will be registered with HMRC &#8212; if that! 

When I kept coursing dogs,  I bought several pups from travellers,  including the odd un-registered GSD pup.  Because there are generally as many small children as there are dogs,  the pups were generally very well socialised,  the pups generally had their freedom rather than being shut-in and so though the probably weren't wormed,  they usually had lovely coats and didn't show any outward signs of internal parasites.

In short,  I'd go and look and if the pups look healthy,  well and they're lively,  then I see no reason why not.

Alec.


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## Cinnamontoast (24 October 2017)

TBH, given that puppy farming is legal and big business in Wales (this shocks and appals me!) I doubt the RSPCA would be interested. I know a friend of my dog trainer mate was off to see a litter of labradoodles, they got a bit lost en route so phoned and as soon as my mate heard the accent, she knew it was a traveller. Her friend hadn't realised. They didn't go and see the pups.


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## GirlFriday (24 October 2017)

I fail to see why someone's lifestyle choices (and, indeed what they are born into) make their pups necessarily not worth seeing?


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## Widgeon (25 October 2017)

GirlFriday said:



			I fail to see why someone's lifestyle choices (and, indeed what they are born into) make their pups necessarily not worth seeing?
		
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Yes....if the breeders seem like decent enough people I probably wouldn't write them off just for being travellers? Although from the OP's posts, the individuals that her stepdaughter was dealing with sound awful! TBH the fact that they are breeding "puggles" would have been more of a turn off to me than the fact that they are travellers.


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## millikins (25 October 2017)

Just an update, same puppies, same photos now for sale in Swindon, over 100 miles away.


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## GirlFriday (27 October 2017)

So...? In theory travellers do 'travel' on occasion. Plus ads get copied all over the internet for dubious reasons nothing to do with original owners. There was a spate of ads purporting to be for Fresians a while back - including photos of HHO horses definitely not for sale iirc.


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## Kaylum (27 October 2017)

Parvo is not nice and these people along with puppy farms never get their dogs vaccinated. I dont understand why people do not get puppies vetted before they buy them. Dogs are as expensive to buy as horses these days. Remember pugs are badly bred as it is, if possible try to discourage her away from the pug element  They have terrible breathing problems.


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## Clodagh (27 October 2017)

GF - many travellers are not the romantic Romanys of old you know, they are as out to make a quick buck as the next person. I wonder if this litter of pups even exist in reality, probalby some 3 weeks old jack x being sold far too young and in awful health.

Kaylum - we always do have our pups vetted, as long as you see the vet within 48 hours of purchase there is a guaranteed refund if they find any problems. I am sure most reputable breeders would offer this as a service, but with bulldogs and so on perhaps you cannot tell future problems as a pup?
The labs just get joints, jaws, heart and eyes looked at.


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## meleeka (27 October 2017)

Can you imagine trying to get a refund from a traveller for a pup that failed a vetting?! If I was looking for a pup Id discount buying from a traveller because Id be fairly certain that they wouldnt have thought carefully about what they breed and have the same safeguards as a reputable breeder. They generally believe if it has a pulse, its ok to breed, same with horses. Im pleased that both of my dogs found me so I didnt have to go to the effort of sorting good breeders from bad.


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## Clodagh (27 October 2017)

meleeka said:



			Can you imagine trying to get a refund from a traveller for a pup that failed a vetting?! .
		
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It would be a brave person that tried!


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## Peter7917 (28 October 2017)

I got a whippet puppy from a travellers site. Met both parents. Well looked after, confident dogs. Puppies were confident and bright, a nice weight etc. 

A few years later I went to a massive house in the country to look at some shih Tzu pups for my mother. The house must have been worth well in excess of a million. Beautiful cars on the drive etc. Mum had weepy eyes. Puppies were soaking wet, smelt like urine and had bits of poo stuck in their fur. I walked away.


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## GirlFriday (28 October 2017)

Clodagh if you were a chap (you might be actually, but I think HHO is mostly ladies) then I'd thank you for 'mansplaining'. And yes, I'd raised the possibility of the two adds not both being genuine myself...

But, that being said, I'd rather have many dogs of dubious parentage from travellers than some (not all, but some) of the hideously inbred KC registered breeder's offerings...


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