# The best trot ever?



## Mearas (27 May 2014)

Someone recently commented that 'This is the best trot I have ever seen, truly uphill and in a natural outline, lovely rhythm.' I agree it is lovely so light but wondered if other forumites thought the same?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dv5Pr0b1TY


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## throughtheforest (27 May 2014)

It's lovely and balanced. It looks as though the horse has a natural talent, with further training and muscle development I bet he could produce a spectacular test.


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## anna22 (27 May 2014)

Wow, so light and off the floor.  Lovely horse, nice to hear the trainer encouraging seat aids and a light hand


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## Fides (27 May 2014)

I really like him  lovely gentle rider and sympathetic trainer too


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## noname (27 May 2014)

It's a nice trot but not the "best I have ever seen". That's a wild claim!
Off the top of my head I'd say Farouche but there are horses with beautiful trots everywhere!


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## Fides (27 May 2014)

noname said:



			It's a nice trot but not the "best I have ever seen". That's a wild claim!
Off the top of my head I'd say Farouche but there are horses with beautiful trots everywhere!
		
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As much as I love Farouche she's ginger  And he's black  

I'm very racist with horses....


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## Mearas (27 May 2014)

Thanks everyone it was really interesting to read your thoughts. I understand noname where you are coming from but I guess it is like comparing apples and pears. Faoruche and others may posssibly have a better natural pace but the trot shown in the video has been developed to enhance the natural pace, I think fantastically myself, because it is so light and in such self carriage?


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## cundlegreen (27 May 2014)

Mearas said:



			Thanks everyone it was really interesting to read your thoughts. I understand noname where you are coming from but I guess it is like comparing apples and pears. Faoruche and others may posssibly have a better natural pace but the trot shown in the video has been developed to enhance the natural pace, I think fantastically myself, because it is so light and in such self carriage?
		
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If you can source it, check out Reiner Klimke's first dressage video in the set. He's riding a bay 4 year old in it that has movement to die for, and totally effortless.


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## TarrSteps (27 May 2014)

Well, it's a very nice trot but "best ever"?  I don't, as a rule, comment on horses and people on the internet who have not agreed to be commented on, but I don't think the rider or trainer involved would claim that is the best trot any horse has ever produced, do you?  The comment is on the YouTube feed, yes?  Not really known as a source of rigorously vetted authority.


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## WindyStacks (28 May 2014)

Nice, but pretty run-of-the-mill at *any* Dutch/German livery yard. Darned warmbloods! ;-)


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## Auslander (28 May 2014)

It's a perfectly nice trot, but nothing very special. Light and balanced, but not really going anywhere. I would imagine that this horse is a little bit idle, as there is very little happening when trainer asks her to lengthen.

I like more active, ground covering paces - a horse that floats along with a super active hind leg, and if anything, needs containing, rather than pushing along.

Like this...this horse really does it for me.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZrU2DMW4ag


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2014)

Auslander said:



			It's a perfectly nice trot, but nothing very special. Light and balanced, but not really going anywhere. I would imagine that this horse is a little bit idle, as there is very little happening when trainer asks her to lengthen.

I like more active, ground covering paces - a horse that floats along with a super active hind leg, and if anything, needs containing, rather than pushing along.

Like this...this horse really does it for me.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZrU2DMW4ag

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Whereas I think that looks quite tight a lot of the time and I really don't like the tension at the beginning. Which shows you how subjective the subject is!


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## charlie76 (28 May 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			Whereas I think that looks quite tight a lot of the time and I really don't like the tension at the beginning. Which shows you how subjective the subject is! 

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I agree, the trot in this video looks manafatured by tension and having the horse 'hot'. However although the trot in the first video is nice I wouldn't say it was the best trot ever, the horse itself looks a bit idle and behind the leg. Almost a bit flat in itself. There is a good base to work from and you could produce a stunning trot from it . not sure how old the black horse is but it looks fairly young.


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## TheMule (28 May 2014)

I could ride this trot all day, looks relaxed, swinging, even, impulsive, soft and comfortable.
It may not be a bug 'wow' auction trot but it ticks all the required boxes


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## Goldenstar (28 May 2014)

Horse in OP 's clip looks behind the led to me .
And for me it lacks cadence and push that's not to say I would kick it off the yard but best trot in the world, no .
The second horse looks tense and well he might be in that situation and young ( looks young I don't know he's young )but a lovely horse .


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## Auslander (28 May 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			Whereas I think that looks quite tight a lot of the time and I really don't like the tension at the beginning. Which shows you how subjective the subject is! 

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Absolutely - if everyone agreed with everyone else, we'd all be woolly and say "Baa"! Agree re the tension, but I forgive him because he's a baby, and the atmosphere is pretty intense at these things (says she who has narrowly escaped a splatting by a young german stallion at a relatively small showcase! 

I'd love to see him working in a more normal environment (preferably at my yard!)


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## Auslander (28 May 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			The second horse looks tense and well he might be in that situation and young ( looks young I don't know he's young )but a lovely horse .
		
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He's rising 4.


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## Oscar (28 May 2014)

Not sure I'd be promoting Helgstrand trained horses after his recent run in with the police and Danish equestrian federation for suspected animal cruelty!


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## Auslander (28 May 2014)

Oscar said:



			Not sure I'd be promoting Helgstrand trained horses after his recent run in with the police and Danish equestrian federation for suspected animal cruelty!
		
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I was commenting on a nice horse - not making a political statement!


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## Mearas (28 May 2014)

This is very interesting thank you. The things I love about the original video are the things that some people really dislike! Auslander says that "I like more active, ground covering paces - a horse that floats along with a super active hind leg, and if anything, needs containing, rather than pushing along." This is actually what I dislike myself because for me it is seems so unrefined  It is also impossible to make a horse light by containing it in the front and the lightness is for me the highest achievement.  Tarrsteps suggests it looks very tense but sorry I just can't see this myself? Auslander also says "that the trot is not going anywhere when he is asked to lengthen" but the trainer clearly says "lengthen a little bit just a little bit". I presume the extra energy would force the horse onto the forehand and therefore the weight into his shoulder and he would no longer be light or responsive?  Personally I think that there is a lot of power there and he is just very responsive and listening to the rider? I  totally agree with Auslander and Tarrsteps about how subjective this is and how great it is that we should be able to debate these things.


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## Mearas (28 May 2014)

cundlegreen said:



			If you can source it, check out Reiner Klimke's first dressage video in the set. He's riding a bay 4 year old in it that has movement to die for, and totally effortless.
		
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Thank you for this suggestion cundlegreen I will certainly try to watch this.


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## Auslander (28 May 2014)

Mearas said:



			This is very interesting thank you. The things I love about the original video are the things that some people really dislike! Auslander says that "I like more active, ground covering paces - a horse that floats along with a super active hind leg, and if anything, needs containing, rather than pushing along." This is actually what I dislike myself because for me it is seems so unrefined  It is also impossible to make a horse light by containing it in the front and the lightness is for me the highest achievement.  Tarrsteps suggests it looks very tense but sorry I just can't see this myself? Auslander also says "that the trot is not going anywhere when he is asked to lengthen" but the trainer clearly says "lengthen a little bit just a little bit". I presume the extra energy would force the horse onto the forehand and therefore the weight into his shoulder and he would no longer be light or responsive?  Personally I think that there is a lot of power there and he is just very responsive and listening to the rider? I  totally agree with Auslander and Tarrsteps about how subjective this is and how great it is that we should be able to debate these things. 

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Slightly offended by your inference that the way I like my horses to go is unrefined - i can assure you that that is not the case. Nor are they heavy in the hand - I believe that a degree of containment is essential to achieve true collection - and the rider in the video you posted clearly has a contact, so she is doing exactly what I was talking about. I don't mean a harsh, pulling back to contain the forwardness, but a quiet, still hand, and a secure seat/position - not blocking, but equally, not letting all the energy out the front door. 

Many roads lead to Rome, and a valuable debate requires that all the participants are open minded about the experiences and opinions of others. I know you are a passionate advocate of this lady, as virtually all your posts are about her - but surely it's a good thing to consider different methods and take what you will from different people.  Doesn't matter who they are, what discipline they specialise in, or whether their overall method is something I agree with - my methods are a patchwork quilt of experiences from all sorts of places, which I've sewn together to suit myself


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## Mearas (28 May 2014)

Firstly may I apologise for any offence I have caused Auslander it was totally unintended. As you suggest I am unashamedly a great advocate of Diane Followell but that was not the reason for my original post. I thought the quote (from someone I don't know) was very interesting and exciting from my perspective. 
For myself I have owned an international dressage horse and been to many trainers and I love any riding/training that shows softness, subtlety and lightness. But I do agree Auslander with much of what you say in your* last *paragraph and I am sorry if my passion and enthusiasm comes across as a closed mind. It has been a very long journey for me.


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## Auslander (28 May 2014)

Mearas said:



			Firstly may I apologise for any offence I have caused Auslander it was totally unintended. As you suggest I am unashamedly a great advocate of Diane Followell but that was not the reason for my original post. I thought the quote (from someone I don't know) was very interesting and exciting from my perspective. 
For myself I have owned an international dressage horse and been to many trainers and I love any riding/training that shows softness, subtlety and lightness. But I do agree Auslander with much of what you say in your* last *paragraph and I am sorry if my passion and enthusiasm comes across as a closed mind. It has been a very long journey for me.
		
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No worries - I was only mildly miffed!


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## Mearas (28 May 2014)

Thanks Auslander


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## PolarSkye (28 May 2014)

Mearas said:



			This is very interesting thank you. The things I love about the original video are the things that some people really dislike! Auslander says that "I like more active, ground covering paces - a horse that floats along with a super active hind leg, and if anything, needs containing, rather than pushing along." This is actually what I dislike myself because for me it is seems so unrefined 

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So would you prefer they grow wings so they can just float of their own accord?  An active hind leg, if properly developed, generates power and impulsion, which is important in creating the elevation necessary for some of the "high school" movements.  Without an active hind leg (and a well-developed core), a horse can't "sit" behind and be truly uphill - detrimental in the long run if it's being asked to perform pirhouettes, two and one time changes, passage, piaffe, etc.  




			It is also impossible to make a horse light by containing it in the front and the lightness is for me the highest achievement.
		
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I'm sorry - what?  Containing doesn't mean "pulling" . . . if the rider (and horse) creates energy from behind (there's that active hind leg again) and it isn't "contained" and recycled by the rider in front (which is perfectly possible with a light contact and an effective seat), it all just dribbles away and the horse is on its forehand.  




			Auslander also says "that the trot is not going anywhere when he is asked to lengthen" but the trainer clearly says "lengthen a little bit just a little bit". I presume the extra energy would force the horse onto the forehand and therefore the weight into his shoulder and he would no longer be light or responsive?
		
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  Correct, if the energy wasn't "contained" - see above.




			Personally I think that there is a lot of power there and he is just very responsive and listening to the rider?
		
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I agree that he is listening to the rider, but I disagree with you re power (or lack of it) . . . I would like to see more push - it all looks rather too "polite" for me and not gymnastic enough.

P


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## daffy44 (28 May 2014)

Just to show how we all like and look for different things, personally i dont think the horses in either video clip qualifies as "the best trot ever".  The black horse in the first clip has a lovely softness and lightness, and its rider is very sympathetic, all of which i really like, but to me it doesnt look entirely in front of the leg and isnt pushing and travelling in a purposeful enough manner for my eye.  The 4yr old in the second clip has great purpose and activity, and yes, a little tension, but a little tension in a young horse in a stressful situation is understandable, but for me the push point of the hind legs is just a bit too far out behind the horse.  Only my opinion, and it just goes to show how we all see different things.


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## Auslander (28 May 2014)

Mearas said:



			Thanks Auslander 

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I'm still a little perplexed, mainly by the "bold" bit on your previous post, which suggest you disagree completely with the first paragraph? I can cope with the fact that you disagree - we all have differing opinions, and that's fine. I just feel that having a contact/containing the impulsion you have created is essential. As I pointed out, the rider in the video you posted has a contact, and Diane is clearly happy with that.


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## Auslander (28 May 2014)

daffy44 said:



			Just to show how we all like and look for different things, personally i dont think the horses in either video clip qualifies as "the best trot ever".  The black horse in the first clip has a lovely softness and lightness, and its rider is very sympathetic, all of which i really like, but to me it doesnt look entirely in front of the leg and isnt pushing and travelling in a purposeful enough manner for my eye.  The 4yr old in the second clip has great purpose and activity, and yes, a little tension, but a little tension in a young horse in a stressful situation is understandable, but for me the push point of the hind legs is just a bit too far out behind the horse.  Only my opinion, and it just goes to show how we all see different things.
		
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I've just watched the vid of the 4yr old again, and I see what you mean. I wonder how much is due to immaturity, tension and lack of balance caused by him being a little too purposeful. Do you think it will change as his schooling continues and he learns to use his back end? Will be interesting to see how he is in a years time when he's used to being out and about, and a little stronger and more mature. 

To clarify - I don't think he has the best trot ever either, but I do like him a lot!


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2014)

Where did I say the black horse is tense? The only comment I made was that I'm not comfortable judging someone who has not put their clip forward for that purpose and for which I have no context. I did comment that the chestnut (whose video is of a public performance and is provided for promotional purposes) looked tense. Auslander explained the context but even so, having seen many horses in similar situations (and even sat on some) there are many I've preferred. Hence the personal preference situation. 

I did also comment on the source of your judgment on the black horse and I do stand by the fact that, judging from the information readily available she is not perhaps the most qualified to judge. If Carl Hester or.Philip Karl or Christensen (or any other major studbook inspector) said it, I might give it some weight. In fact there are things I like about the black horse and a few things I don't, so I still wouldn't say it's the best trot EVER. I'd be interested to hear from a few more classical trainers on why this would be a fair assessment.


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## daffy44 (28 May 2014)

In my experience, no unfortunately, the push point doesnt really change from foal to adult to advanced.  You can of course teach the horse to take more weight behind, quicken the steps, collect etc, but the push point generally stays the same.  I agree, he is a lovely horse, but i would see that as a negative, he does of course, also have many positives.


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## el_Snowflakes (28 May 2014)

To be honest that horse/trot doesn't so anything for me at all. Each to their own though


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## Cortez (28 May 2014)

Best EVER trot? No. Very nice, yes. I have been trained by several students of Oliviera so know quite well the "school" they are training from and the way of going that is required which is quite different from the conventional modern "way". I know which one I prefer, but can appreciate the best of the other too.


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## Auslander (28 May 2014)

daffy44 said:



			In my experience, no unfortunately, the push point doesnt really change from foal to adult to advanced.  You can of course teach the horse to take more weight behind, quicken the steps, collect etc, but the push point generally stays the same.  I agree, he is a lovely horse, but i would see that as a negative, he does of course, also have many positives.
		
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That's really interesting, and not something i'd ever really thought about. Makes sense though. Thank you


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## _GG_ (28 May 2014)

Not my cup of tea if I was looking at a horse to go all the way I'm afraid. Training can do a lot, but it cannot create a substance as a foundation and I find that lacking in this horse. Nice horse, nice trot, but I'd want more than that.


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## daffy44 (28 May 2014)

Auslander, my pleasure.  Its only my opinion, but i'm glad it gave you something to think about.  Generally the basic biomechanics of the horse dont change.


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## PolarSkye (28 May 2014)

_GG_ said:



			Not my cup of tea if I was looking at a horse to go all the way I'm afraid. Training can do a lot, but it cannot create a substance as a foundation and I find that lacking in this horse. Nice horse, nice trot, but I'd want more than that.
		
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I agree . . . well put . . . sort of what I meant by "too polite" . . . all rather "nice" but not particularly special.

P


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## Cortez (28 May 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			I agree . . . well put . . . sort of what I meant by "too polite" . . . all rather "nice" but not particularly special.

P
		
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Well, that'd possibly be because it's not being trained to be "special" in a modern, competition, knock-your-eyes-out sort of a way with the front legs going like the clappers. The classical regime is all about softness and yielding through the body, etc., etc. (won't bore you here). I totally get what they're asking for, but it wouldn't win them any advanced classes in this day and age.


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## Auslander (28 May 2014)

daffy44 said:



			Auslander, my pleasure.  Its only my opinion, but i'm glad it gave you something to think about.  Generally the basic biomechanics of the horse dont change.
		
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The whole topic of biomechanics fascinates me - mainly because I have a wreck of an old PSG horse. I'm sure he broke because he is not bolted together in a way that made it easy for him to do the advanced work - he's Shire X. He did it anyway because he is a generous soul, but i wonder if he would have stayed sound if he'd been properly designed for the job


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## _GG_ (28 May 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			I agree . . . well put . . . sort of what I meant by "too polite" . . . all rather "nice" but not particularly special.

P
		
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Yep. What I look for in a young horse is freedom of movement, activity of hind leg and movement of shoulder, good base rhythm and a powerful engine. I expect the paces to be fairly grounded at a young age. It is possible to be ground covering without being really light which is how you see such lovely moving young horses. For me, lightness is achieved through strength and training.  A horse this light on its feet at this age, not my thing.


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## _GG_ (28 May 2014)

Cortez said:



			Well, that'd possibly be because it's not being trained to be "special" in a modern, competition, knock-your-eyes-out sort of a way with the front legs going like the clappers. The classical regime is all about softness and yielding through the body, etc., etc. (won't bore you here). I totally get what they're asking for, but it wouldn't win them any advanced classes in this day and age.
		
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I don't go in for front leg flashiness...but I do like some substance. I can't quite put my finger on it with the horse in the OP, but there's just something there that puts me off.


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## PolarSkye (28 May 2014)

Cortez said:



			Well, that'd possibly be because it's not being trained to be "special" in a modern, competition, knock-your-eyes-out sort of a way with the front legs going like the clappers. The classical regime is all about softness and yielding through the body, etc., etc. (won't bore you here). I totally get what they're asking for, but it wouldn't win them any advanced classes in this day and age.
		
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I see what you're getting at . . . but I wasn't looking for the ridiculous Heil Hitler salutes with the front legs either . . . just more push and power.  Yes, the trot is nice and light and the body is relaxed . . . but the point of the original post was whether it was the best trot "ever" . . . I would have to say no, because I would want to see more "push" and power - not for the sake of doing the trot equivalent of John Cleese's silly walk, but because the basic paces are the foundation for the rest of the dressage movements.  Dressage (as opposed to flat work) is about demonstrating the athleticism of the horse (among other things) and the little black horse, while light and soft, doesn't look athletic to me.

P


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## Cortez (28 May 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			I see what you're getting at . . . but I wasn't looking for the ridiculous Heil Hitler salutes with the front legs either . . . just more push and power.  Yes, the trot is nice and light and the body is relaxed . . . but the point of the original post was whether it was the best trot "ever" . . . I would have to say no, because I would want to see more "push" and power - not for the sake of doing the trot equivalent of John Cleese's silly walk, but because the basic paces are the foundation for the rest of the dressage movements.  Dressage (as opposed to flat work) is about demonstrating the athleticism of the horse (among other things) and the little black horse, while light and soft, doesn't look athletic to me.

P
		
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Oooh! I do love a proper, grown up debate on a topic which I adore. Totally agreeing with the "No, not best trot ever", but when did dressage come to mean athleticism? It actually "means" training, but the modern competition has morphed it into something else I think.


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## daffy44 (28 May 2014)

Auslander said:



			The whole topic of biomechanics fascinates me - mainly because I have a wreck of an old PSG horse. I'm sure he broke because he is not bolted together in a way that made it easy for him to do the advanced work - he's Shire X. He did it anyway because he is a generous soul, but i wonder if he would have stayed sound if he'd been properly designed for the job
		
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I'm sure your right, if the horse is struggling biomechanically logically there is a higher chance of the horse breaking as its working against the design of it own body.  Equally when you have young horses who find everything effortless, its usually because their bodies are designed to do the work, so its easier for them to do things correctly.


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## PolarSkye (28 May 2014)

Cortez said:



			Oooh! I do love a proper, grown up debate on a topic which I adore. Totally agreeing with the "No, not best trot ever", but when did dressage come to mean athleticism? It actually "means" training, but the modern competition has morphed it into something else I think.
		
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Me too! .

OK - you have a point about what the word means . . . you're absolutely right about that.  So do we need different terminology?  There's classical dressage as in "training" or "schooling" . . . there's the "high school" style of dressage a la Spanish Riding School (and I would argue that to perform some of those movements the horses need to be "athletic") and then there's modern dressage.  IMHO, they all overlap . . . and separating them out is difficult because they probably have the same fundamental principles at their core.

So . . . if you agree that the little black horse doesn't have the best trot ever - but you disagree that dressage doesn't necessarily require athleticism (that may be the wrong word - I actually think of modern dressage horses as more like gymnasts than athletes) then what's YOUR ideal?

(Genuine question by the way).

P


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## daffy44 (28 May 2014)

Cortez, i totally agree that dressage means training, but sadly training alone wont win current competitions.  I think the black horse looks quite athletic, just lacking in a little power in modern terms, but i think that power and a quicker hind leg could be trained.  I think the black horse has many positive points, but its not "the best trot ever"!


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## TGM (28 May 2014)

Cortez said:



			Totally agreeing with the "No, not best trot ever", but when did dressage come to mean athleticism? It actually "means" training, but the modern competition has morphed it into something else I think.
		
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Well one meaning of athletic is "Physically strong and well-developed; muscular:" and surely dressage training should develop the horse's physical strength and muscular structure.  So you would expect the established dressage horse to show quite a bit of athleticism, even if some horses start the training process with a naturally more athletic physique than others!

And I agree with the consensus on here that the horse has a 'nice' trot, but wouldn't say it was the best I've ever seen!  It seems to be lacking a little something, but I can't quite put my finger on what it is, although there is lots to like about it.


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2014)

Auslander said:



			The whole topic of biomechanics fascinates me - mainly because I have a wreck of an old PSG horse. I'm sure he broke because he is not bolted together in a way that made it easy for him to do the advanced work - he's Shire X. He did it anyway because he is a generous soul, but i wonder if he would have stayed sound if he'd been properly designed for the job
		
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That is one aspect of my 'Never teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.' motto. I grit my teeth wherever I hear people say you can teach any horse any job and there's no harm in trying. Not true. Lots of harm can come from it, mostly to the horse. If someone wants to choose to try because that's the horse they have, have at it. But to pretend there is no risk merely means people ignore the first signs of trouble and put them down to resistance that must be over come. To set out to do it, to prove you don't have to 'follow the rules' is plain hubris. 

That said, horses exist for the pleasure of people so I guess for many the wrong job is better than no job at all.


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## Auslander (28 May 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			That is one aspect of my 'Never teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.' motto. I grit my teeth wherever I hear people say you can teach any horse any job and there's no harm in trying. Not true. Lots of harm can come from it, mostly to the horse. If someone wants to choose to try because that's the horse they have, have at it. But to pretend there is no risk merely means people ignore the first signs of trouble and put them down to resistance that must be over come. To set out to do it, to prove you don't have to 'follow the rules' is plain hubris. 

That said, horses exist for the pleasure of people so I guess for many the wrong job is better than no job at all.
		
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Damn right! Although, in this case - he did very well, and appeared to thoroughly enjoy his job. Still does - if you give him half a chance, he'll still give you a run through of his repertoire. He loves piaffe and passage, and offers them whenever he thinks you might fancy it! 

He's incredibly stoic, and I think that's what did for him - he never once said No, even when he must have been hurting.


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## PolarSkye (28 May 2014)

TGM said:



			Well one meaning of athletic is "Physically strong and well-developed; muscular:" and surely dressage training should develop the horse's physical strength and muscular structure.  So you would expect the established dressage horse to show quite a bit of athleticism, even if some horses start the training process with a naturally more athletic physique than others!
		
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What I wish I'd said!  Well put.

P


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## Cortez (28 May 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			Me too! .

OK - you have a point about what the word means . . . you're absolutely right about that.  So do we need different terminology?  There's classical dressage as in "training" or "schooling" . . . there's the "high school" style of dressage a la Spanish Riding School (and I would argue that to perform some of those movements the horses need to be "athletic") and then there's modern dressage.  IMHO, they all overlap . . . and separating them out is difficult because they probably have the same fundamental principles at their core.

So . . . if you agree that the little black horse doesn't have the best trot ever - but you disagree that dressage doesn't necessarily require athleticism (that may be the wrong word - I actually think of modern dressage horses as more like gymnasts than athletes) then what's YOUR ideal?

(Genuine question by the way).

P
		
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MY ideal is the very old style baroque horse with it's shorter, rounder, higher, softer but exceedingly powerful paces, all off the back end; definitely NOT what wins modern competition dressage! Athletic? Absolutely; but not in the super-elastic LOOONG extended paces way of the modern warmblood. It's all about the collection; the old dressage Masters didn't do extension.

Agree totally that modern dressage is about gymnastics, and obedience. When people say "It's got lovely paces" what they seem to mean is "it's got loads of extension". Very difficult to extend like that AND sit and collect, which may be why the piaffe and passage have gone to pot with all but a very few modern GP horses (Valegro being one of the few).


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## chestnut cob (28 May 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			That is one aspect of my 'Never teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.' motto. I grit my teeth wherever I hear people say you can teach any horse any job and there's no harm in trying. Not true. Lots of harm can come from it, mostly to the horse. If someone wants to choose to try because that's the horse they have, have at it. But to pretend there is no risk merely means people ignore the first signs of trouble and put them down to resistance that must be over come. To set out to do it, to prove you don't have to 'follow the rules' is plain hubris. 

That said, horses exist for the pleasure of people so I guess for many the wrong job is better than no job at all.
		
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I should think you *can* teach any horse any job, to a certain point.  Any horse should surely be able to produce a decent low level DR test and jump nicely around a 90cm course?  But once you get to higher levels, even if the horse has the right trainable mindset, a horse with better conformation for the job is always going to find it much easier.  I also think there is an element of what job the horse enjoys.


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## Pigeon (28 May 2014)

It depends on taste and what you want the horse for... Bit too passage-y for me. As others have said, doesn't really move with purpose. Not that I wouldn't kill to ride something like that


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## PolarSkye (28 May 2014)

Cortez said:



			MY ideal is the very old style baroque horse with it's shorter, rounder, higher, softer but exceedingly powerful paces, all off the back end; definitely NOT what wins modern competition dressage! Athletic? Absolutely; but not in the super-elastic LOOONG extended paces way of the modern warmblood. It's all about the collection; the old dressage Masters didn't do extension.
		
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Agree wholeheartedly . . . perhaps when I say "athletic" you hear "unnecessary movement" when what I really mean is power and push - rather than (as you put it) "super-elastic LOOONG extended paces."  Of course, it takes correctly developed musculature to produce those wonderful collected movements like passage, piaffe and pirouette . . . we're back to dressage horses being the gymnasts of the equine world, which is perhaps a better/more accurate description than athletes.  




			When people say "It's got lovely paces" what they seem to mean is "it's got loads of extension". Very difficult to extend like that AND sit and collect, which may be why the piaffe and passage have gone to pot with all but a very few modern GP horses (Valegro being one of the few).
		
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Agree (again!) . . . although I'd say people are mistaking "expression" for "paces" . . . a horse with an expressive front end doesn't have nice paces if the back end doesn't match . . . or if the three paces in and of themselves are not correct and balanced in terms of angles, cadence, etc.  

Having watched CH ride Barney (Nip Tuck) at Royal Windsor on the Friday, I'd say there's another correct, sympathetically produced modern dressage horse coming up through the ranks . . . emphasis on quality of the paces to support the movements required rather than flash and showmanship.  Either CH has a great eye for a youngster's movements . . . or he's an amazing rider/trainer . . . or both .

P


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## Cortez (28 May 2014)

Both, with bells on. Big fan of CH


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## Mearas (28 May 2014)

For myself I have really enjoyed these very polite and informed posts. It just appears to reinforce the fact that dressage is an art not a science, give a group of artists the same still life to draw they would all produce a different picture, but none of them would be wrong. Just to play 'devils advocate' Carl Hester recently made the following quote;

 Interviewer; What was impressive for me is you liked the very very light horses, the natural movers and not as you say the produced horses. How can we get this across to the judges? It is not that the judges were bad or are bad but how we can tell people that natural riding can be better? 

Carl: I think that is happening, I see it happening the last few years, I think that like I said the one thing we want is it to look easy. So if you want it to look easy you dont need to have the most spectacular horse. You need a horse in self carriage that can carry itself and look light. It should be light in the hand, in self carriage and that is not difficult to see so I think that we are looking more for that now and not just spectacular movement We are looking for rideability". I wondered if this influenced anyone's perspective?


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## Cortez (28 May 2014)

Well, like I said, BIG fan of CH. My thoughts would match his on this ^^^. The breeding of WB dressage horses has reached such a state of "engineering" for the job that there are now young horses with such spectacular movement (especially with huge trots) that they are liable to damage themselves if not very carefully trained in the early stages. Is this a bad thing? I'll say a qualified no, but it does mean that horses with average movements are being overlooked, even if they are really well trained - or indeed better trained than Mr Fantastic-Mover, and that is not as it should be (in the ideal world in which I wish to stable my horses).


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2014)

The problem is dressage means 'training'. Theoretically it's about how well you can train a horse. But we all know that is not really all there is to modern Competitive Dressage. 

It's like saying gymnastics *should*.be about building a strong healthy body for work and sport. Anyone with even a passing acquaintance with Competitive Gymnastics knows that, at the higher level at least, it could not be further from that goal.


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2014)

chestnut cob said:



			I should think you *can* teach any horse any job, to a certain point.  Any horse should surely be able to produce a decent low level DR test and jump nicely around a 90cm course?  But once you get to higher levels, even if the horse has the right trainable mindset, a horse with better conformation for the job is always going to find it much easier.  I also think there is an element of what job the horse enjoys.
		
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'Can' and 'should' are not the same. 

On a professional level I agree. I've taught many horses to do many jobs which have brought their owners much pleasure.

Personally, I'm not sure I do agree. When I see people, for example, jumping draught horses or schooling naturally very inverted horses for hours to improve their dressage, I wonder why those people did not buy a horse more suited to their desires. The answer is almost always that they love the horse but if you love your square peg why do you want to bash it into a round hole.

Horses are naturally compliant. By the time they say no the damage is usually well on its way. 

I do realise this is unpopular and most people disagree (although rarely professionals, usually because they've learned from experience) but I think it's interesting how pervasive the idea is that we can try *anything* and there will be no cost. I suspect it's part of the general feeling now that every physical issue has a fix, that injuries only happen in the field, and that wear and tear is something only other people put on horses. How can we guard against situations we refuse to.acknowledge? The whole point of breeding and buying for purpose is to produce horses that do the job more easily. The trick is to match the horse to the job.


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## JFTDWS (28 May 2014)

Not all drafts that jump a bit break, though.  And many "bred to jump" horses do break too.  I'm not convinced RC level jumping / lower-mid level dressage on a non-purpose bred horse is fitting a square peg to a round hole.  I'm  not even convinced you'd see a massive difference in long term soundness between sports horses and native/cob/draft types used for that sort of purpose.

And at the other end of the spectrum, many riders who buy flash horses can't handle them - there has to be a pay off in the middle somewhere.

I really don't like the idea of villainising owners who choose to do a bit of "normal level" dressage or jumping on a normal horse as either not caring, or not considering the possibility of damaging it.


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2014)

Cortez said:



			Well, like I said, BIG fan of CH. My thoughts would match his on this ^^^. The breeding of WB dressage horses has reached such a state of "engineering" for the job that there are now young horses with such spectacular movement (especially with huge trots) that they are liable to damage themselves if not very carefully trained in the early stages. Is this a bad thing? I'll say a qualified no, but it does mean that horses with average movements are being overlooked, even if they are really well trained - or indeed better trained than Mr Fantastic-Mover, and that is not as it should be (in the ideal world in which I wish to stable my horses).
		
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I think you could also argue that the 'average' movers now are, as a group, better and more numerous.  It's human nature to keep pushing the boundaries and some people will always be attracted to the freaky. 

But the comment re passage and piaffe does connect to that point too. Within my memory there were horses at Olympic level that simply did not have a piaffe. At all. Ever. There were a handful that had piaffe but no extension. There were not many that had both of good quality, let alone one at the extreme. Now almost every horse, from even the non-dressage nations (given the high percentage of Canadians on this thread  has at least an adequate approximation of both. The question is not about the top horses, it's about the quality one step below this. AI, international travel, exportation of studbooks - the modern playing field is so different. Add trends and preferences into the mix and the landscape is ever shifting.


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## nikkimariet (28 May 2014)

Best trot ever??? Yuck. No.

Out behind. Unconnected. Uneven extension in front (as in stride length, not soundness). Looks hollow over back and braced in the neck/jaw.

Does nothing for me.


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## Mearas (28 May 2014)

We have some fabulous horses being bred now for dressage and I would respectfully suggest that some of them are 'unrideable' not because of temperament but because they have such huge movement and perhaps this allows riders of lesser ability to ride at advance levels and as a result we see horses in rolkur and the now notorious blue tongue videos???  It is truly hard for judges as they are the custodians of dressage and as such of dressage training. Initially dressage tests where to test the training of the horse and to be honest it would be very boring to watch for anyone without knowledge. With the introduction of the Kur test it made dressage more interesting to a wider audience and pros and cons that can be argued in relation to this. With the Kur spectators enjoyed the flashier movement and we had bigger more spectacular moving horses and some would argue to the detriment of training?   I understand that Josef Neckerman (I think in the 1960's Olympics) was in first place riding outdoors in a rain storm, his horse halted on the centre line and then turned his hind quarters into the rain, because of this he dropped from 1st to 8th place. It is rare today to see a horse stand still on the centre line with a few notable exceptions CH being one of them. I recently watched a video of Mathias Rath on Totilas giving him a good 3 boots with the spur to 'gee him up' before entering the arena. I guess this ultimately is the reason I now prefer the quieter calmer accurate well ridden test as opposed to a flashier less correct test because it seems to me to be more of a challenge and why I enjoyed the trot on the video in the original post. I would agree with many it is probably not the best trot in the world but it is a very very good trot and I would love to see it when it is fully developed.


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2014)

JFTD said:



			Not all drafts that jump a bit break, though.  And many "bred to jump" horses do break too.  I'm not convinced RC level jumping / lower-mid level dressage on a non-purpose bred horse is fitting a square peg to a round hole.  I'm  not even convinced you'd see a massive difference in long term soundness between sports horses and native/cob/draft types used for that sort of purpose.

And at the other end of the spectrum, many riders who buy flash horses can't handle them - there has to be a pay off in the middle somewhere.

I really don't like the idea of villainising owners who choose to do a bit of "normal level" dressage or jumping on a normal horse as either not caring, or not considering the possibility of damaging it.
		
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I didn't 'villainise' anyone nor did I disagree with any of your other statements. I merely stated my opinion.

You are right though, I should not have used a specific type in my example (my only excuse is i had in my mind an image of a situation I saw recently with a very heavy horse clearly struggling and landing like a ton of bricks off every fence). I should more correctly have said 'clearly limited/struggling' and left type out of it. If the horse is handling the job easily then clearly it's fit for purpose. But if a horse is struggling, on a biomechanical level, then why is it not okay to say so? That was the original point re the chestnut horse not having the raw material to be a top dressage horse. My opinion - which I did state was mine alone - is that not every horse has the raw material to jump 1m courses that it's okay to say that.

I get that we disagree. But surely the whole point of this thread is people can disagree about many things to do with horses and go merrily on their way, doing what they think is best. You know what they say, ask 5 horsemen, get 7 opinions.


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## LillyBeth (28 May 2014)

JFTD said:



			Not all drafts that jump a bit break, though.  And many "bred to jump" horses do break too.  I'm not convinced RC level jumping / lower-mid level dressage on a non-purpose bred horse is fitting a square peg to a round hole.  I'm  not even convinced you'd see a massive difference in long term soundness between sports horses and native/cob/draft types used for that sort of purpose.

And at the other end of the spectrum, many riders who buy flash horses can't handle them - there has to be a pay off in the middle somewhere.

I really don't like the idea of villainising owners who choose to do a bit of "normal level" dressage or jumping on a normal horse as either not caring, or not considering the possibility of damaging it.
		
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I have to agree! I don't personally believe that a horse, just because they are not a warmblood, is more likely to break because they have done a bit of RC jumping and a few prelim tests. Quite the opposite, those horses are more likely (not, obviously, guaranteed and I don't want to imply that this is black and white and all non-competitive owners have unfit, badly cared for horses at all!) but those horses who do compete a little bit are probably likely to be fitter and more regularly visited by a saddler/physio/etc than a horse who hacks out every now and again and surely that is more likely to keep them in good condition than just discarding them as lacking ability to jump a small course due to being a slightly heavier breed. Just my opinion though  

Regarding the dressage horse, I also prefer the second but would prefer to ride the first haha. My electric bum would probably have me chucked off in a second on the chestnut horse  the first certainly looks more rideable.

edited - oops our posts crossed paths! Yes I totally agree with you, if horse is obviously struggling it's not fair. At a uni comp last year, won't say at which uni, there was a very sweet but hugely upside down shaped pony that was a proper cut and shut cheaply bred type who really was badly put together but tried her little heart out! One of the girls doing dressage on her had spurs on and was sawing on the poor pony's mouth and jabbing it with the spurs in order to force it into a false outline. The girl from our team did a nice, sympathetic test with a nice rhythm and let the pony go round with it's head in the air as it was clearly comfortable to do. Obviously, the girl who bullied the poor thing got the best mark on that horse! Made me lose faith a bit haha.


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2014)

LillyBeth said:



			I have to agree! I don't personally believe that a horse, just because they are not a warmblood, is more likely to break because they have done a bit of RC jumping and a few prelim tests. Quite the opposite, those horses are more likely (not, obviously, guaranteed and I don't want to imply that this is black and white and all non-competitive owners have unfit, badly cared for horses at all!) but those horses who do compete a little bit are probably likely to be fitter and more regularly visited by a saddler/physio/etc than a horse who hacks out every now and again and surely that is more likely to keep them in good condition than just discarding them as lacking ability to jump a small course due to being a slightly heavier breed. Just my opinion though  

Regarding the dressage horse, I also prefer the second but would prefer to ride the first haha. My electric bum would probably have me chucked off in a second on the chestnut horse  the first certainly looks more rideable.
		
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See above.  I did not say a word about standard of care or casting horses off. The 'best' horse for the job is the one best suited.

I also didn't say anything about warmbloods. I said 'purpose bred'. I've broken heavy draught horses to ride and seen them give their owners much pleasure. But I would not have been in favour if the owners had wanted to jump and the horses had struggled. 

The original conversation was about biomechanics and whether the horse's willingness to try should always be allowed to make up for a physical shortcoming. I think this is a question to ask all up and down the spectrum.


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## LillyBeth (28 May 2014)

I did edit my post once I realised you had replied whilst I was typing


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## Hollywood (28 May 2014)

The black horse is demonstrating a lovely relaxed trot - it is being 'allowed' to go forward on a light rein. No it probably wouldn't be the most active, expressive trot that is expected in competitions today, but not everyone wants to train specifically for competition. Classical dressage is the development of the horses natural paces and movement and nothing should be forced. A lot of modern dressage is forced, and the video of the young chestnut horse is everything I don't like about how dressage horses are produced these days. For its age it was too collected - any horse should not be asked to be that collected until it is physically old enough. But that is just my opinion.


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## Mearas (28 May 2014)

nikkimariet said:



			Best trot ever??? Yuck. No.

Out behind. Unconnected. Uneven extension in front (as in stride length, not soundness). Looks hollow over back and braced in the neck/jaw.

Does nothing for me.
		
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Whilst I fully respect your opinion nikkimariet it is almost as if I am watching a different video to you I have looked at the video again and I really can not see any of the points you make! We are talking about the black horse?


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## JFTDWS (28 May 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			I didn't 'villainise' anyone nor did I disagree with any of your other statements. 

I get that we disagree. But surely the whole point of this thread is people can disagree about many things to do with horses and go merrily on their way, doing what they think is best. You know what they say, ask 5 horsemen, get 7 opinions. 

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I'm more than happy to agree to disagree, but I do think your suggestion that non-professional owners are incapable of perceiving that unfixable damage may befall their horses by working them is a little bit villainising.  Being, as I am, of the opinion that stupidity is not an excuse...

I thought it was OK to say if people think the horse is struggling with the job?  I've certainly encountered plenty of people who think it is their place.  However, on a biomechanic level I think that trainers of non-typical dressage horses should be accepting of the limitations of their horse - not unwilling to train them to higher levels or purposes necessarily, but accepting that their work will always be relative to their conformation and abilities, and that this will be reflected in their marks.  I think it is driving the horse to produce more unnatural performance (trying to make their paces more expressive or flamboyant like that of a purpose bred) which is detrimental to the non-purpose bred animal, rather than training them to produce the work itself.  


Which is ironic, as I do talk about channelling the highland's inner warmblood.  But if you saw what I meant by that, you'd realise how tongue in cheek the phrase is


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## JFTDWS (28 May 2014)

LillyBeth said:



			One of the girls doing dressage on her had spurs on and was sawing on the poor pony's mouth and jabbing it with the spurs in order to force it into a false outline.
		
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Where I come from (my own little land), sawing, fiddling, tugging and slidey slidey is punishable by death...


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## Pigeon (28 May 2014)

I'm with JFTD.

I was always told that one of the important aspects of dressage was to teach the horse (any horse) to carry itself in a healthier way, and be responsive and pleasant (and therefore safer) to ride!! Most breeds could benefit from basic dressage, I'm sure of it. Though I suppose the horse in the vid isn't exactly destined for prelim haha. 

Also, what do you do if you want to ride well at dressage but don't have enough spare cash to splash out on a warmblood? I dunno, I just always thought it was a good thing to improve everyday riders and horses, with an according scale, not just the elite.

Such a fascinating thread though - a fab read!


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## shortstuff99 (28 May 2014)

My I-pad won't let me see the op video  but from the chestnut video I saw this horse https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHgs8xDcLxU from the same stallion show. Others will probably hate him but I think he looks wicked fun  and I like his paces. On the topic my mare has a really active hind leg and it seems to freak some judges out! Lol but most really love her activity and when she is relaxed scores better than most warm bloods and she's not one. But she finds it easy and I think this is sometimes where confusion happens. If a horse is more talented then it is going to look more advanced then a less talented horse this does not mean it has been forced!

Any who I seem to have rambled there with no real purpose, feel free to ignore me


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## Pigeon (28 May 2014)

JFTD said:



			Where I come from (my own little land), sawing, fiddling, tugging and slidey slidey is punishable by death...
		
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Oh it's so common though


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## JFTDWS (28 May 2014)

Pigeon said:



			Oh it's so common though 

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You're telling me!  Honestly, I think some people don't even realise they're doing it :eek3:


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## Mearas (28 May 2014)

Sorry you can't see the original video shortstuff. Try You Tube 'Training with Nuno Oliveira student Diane Followell'.


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## Pigeon (28 May 2014)

JFTD said:



			You're telling me!  Honestly, I think some people don't even realise they're doing it :eek3:
		
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And weirdly judges (or at any rate a lot of judges) don't seem to mark it that badly???


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## Oscar (28 May 2014)

Sorry but I don't think we should be discussing a horse/rider combination and their suitability for dressage without their permission. Some of the comments about the horse have been quite slating, I'm glad it's not my precious horse. Please remember this is someone's pride and joy and they have not (as far as I'm aware) asked for hho to critique her horse.


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## PolarSkye (28 May 2014)

Pigeon said:



			And weirdly judges (or at any rate a lot of judges) don't seem to mark it that badly???
		
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Not all, though . . . our trainer is also a judge and I am her designated writer (because I know her and her approach) . . . she will automatically mark down ANY rider who is sawing, fiddling, unnecessarily abrupt and any horse ridden deep or in a "fake" outline or shape.  

.

P


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## nikkimariet (28 May 2014)

Mearas said:



			Whilst I fully respect your opinion nikkimariet it is almost as if I am watching a different video to you I have looked at the video again and I really can not see any of the points you make! We are talking about the black horse?
		
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Absolutely talking about the black horse. Dull as a doorknob and not ridden to its best IMO.

But hey, if we all liked the same thing, wouldn't the world be a boring place!


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## Mearas (28 May 2014)

Oscar said:



			Sorry but I don't think we should be discussing a horse/rider combination and their suitability for dressage without their permission. Some of the comments about the horse have been quite slating, I'm glad it's not my precious horse. Please remember this is someone's pride and joy and they have not (as far as I'm aware) asked for hho to critique her horse.
		
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Oscar I do think you have a very valid point here but it has highlighted how subjective dressage is. For as many people that disliked the video there were as many that loved it. I do VERY MUCH hope that the rider will take the positive comments as one thing is very clear she has worked very hard to produce this horse.


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## nikkimariet (28 May 2014)

Oscar said:



			Sorry but I don't think we should be discussing a horse/rider combination and their suitability for dressage without their permission. Some of the comments about the horse have been quite slating, I'm glad it's not my precious horse. Please remember this is someone's pride and joy and they have not (as far as I'm aware) asked for hho to critique her horse.
		
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Mearas said:



			Oscar I do think you have a very valid point here but it has highlighted how subjective dressage is. For as many people that disliked the video there were as many that loved it. I do VERY MUCH hope that the rider will take the positive comments as one thing is very clear she has worked very hard to produce this horse.
		
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Whilst I understand where you're both coming from... Wasn't there a huge thread re: MRA and Toto floating around the other day? I don't think he asked for a HHO critique either, yet no one has a problem saying their 2 pence about that?

OP, you posted saying what you thought of the vid, inviting others to post their thoughts on the horse/riding. What one person likes, another will loathe. Such is life.


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## Lolo (28 May 2014)

Pigeon said:



			I'm with JFTD.

I was always told that one of the important aspects of dressage was to teach the horse (any horse) to carry itself in a healthier way, and be responsive and pleasant (and therefore safer) to ride!! Most breeds could benefit from basic dressage, I'm sure of it. Though I suppose the horse in the vid isn't exactly destined for prelim haha. 

Also, what do you do if you want to ride well at dressage but don't have enough spare cash to splash out on a warmblood? I dunno, I just always thought it was a good thing to improve everyday riders and horses, with an according scale, not just the elite.

Such a fascinating thread though - a fab read!
		
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I didn't think TarrSteps was saying that horses shouldn't be trained and worked with to improve and enjoy dressage. But actually, there's a reason the top horses who aren't 'made for it' are rare and much celebrated- they are the freaks rather than the norm and tend to not stand up well to it. But this is at the top, not at 'normal' levels... Although normal is obviously subjective and difficult to describe.

I think a reasonable example of this is Al's old little cob: he wasn't made for eventing, at 14hh and basically a mini-Shire in build (feathers and all) even when he was 'racing fit'. But he managed to compete at 1.10m ODEs which is a fair feat. But he broke down later (not while we had him) and I imagine the strain put on his body and little legs getting round those tracks was not exactly helpful...


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## JFTDWS (28 May 2014)

Pigeon said:



			And weirdly judges (or at any rate a lot of judges) don't seem to mark it that badly???
		
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Hehe, some mark it down as far as they can within the confines of the marks available, but you see it quite far up the levels too which terrifies me!


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2014)

Pigeon said:



			I'm with JFTD.

I was always told that one of the important aspects of dressage was to teach the horse (any horse) to carry itself in a healthier way, and be responsive and pleasant (and therefore safer) to ride!! Most breeds could benefit from basic dressage, I'm sure of it. Though I suppose the horse in the vid isn't exactly destined for prelim haha. 

Also, what do you do if you want to ride well at dressage but don't have enough spare cash to splash out on a warmblood? I dunno, I just always thought it was a good thing to improve everyday riders and horses, with an according scale, not just the elite.

Such a fascinating thread though - a fab read!
		
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I don't see where I argued. I said if a horse is struggling then THAT is the point to examine the necessity of reaching beyond that point. Not an arbitrary 'this height/level' is what every horse should be able to do. I also never said you have to have a warmblood to do dressage, competitively or otherwise. 

As far as dressage improving every horse's life, I think the fundamental principles are essential - the horse should move freely forward in balance both laterally and longitudinally (although this thread demonstrates we don't all agree what this looks and how to get it) - but I don't necessarily agree that it's 'best' for every horse to do this in the way of dressage tests. For example, I know some Standardbreds who are super hacks, jump well and are stand up lovely brave horses. But they really struggle to canter in the school and need a huge amount of work to do what even the average riding horse does easily. So is it better for them to put that work in when there are jobs they can do more easily? There are always exceptions, of course, and some canter easily and well. But do we have proof that 'dressage' is best for all horses? I have certainly been taught in many schools that believe it so. But I've been in others that don't.

Anyway, not really related to the thread. 

Also a bit ironic as this week alone I've ridden a Fjord, a NF and an Arab-Welsh x, two of whom I think are perfect for their situations.


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## TarrSteps (28 May 2014)

nikkimariet said:



			Whilst I understand where you're both coming from... Wasn't there a huge thread re: MRA and Toto floating around the other day? I don't think he asked for a HHO critique either, yet no one has a problem saying their 2 pence about that?

OP, you posted saying what you thought of the vid, inviting others to post their thoughts on the horse/riding. What one person likes, another will loathe. Such is life.
		
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I did make the point up thread that I think there is a distinction between a video of a public performance, presumably done expressly for the purposes of being judged (or a video posted with a request for cc) and what is effectively a video of someone's lesson. Added that the lesson video has no information on context etc. 

It's not the OP in the vid so not a case of someone posting about their own horse/lesson.


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## TGM (29 May 2014)

If people are critiquing other people's horses and riding then there are ways and means of doing so without being offensive.  For example, saying that a horse is "a bit behind the leg" or "rather tense" are ways to express an opinion in a rational and unemotional way.  But saying things like "yuck" about someone's pride and joy is rather unnecessary in my book.


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## ihatework (29 May 2014)

I was a bit shocked at the 'yuck' comment too. Nothing yuck about an obviously healthy, sympathetically ridden horse. Is it going to wipe the boards up the levels in competitive dressage - probably not. But there is more to equine life than that for most people.


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## AandK (29 May 2014)

TGM said:



			If people are critiquing other people's horses and riding then there are ways and means of doing so without being offensive.  For example, saying that a horse is "a bit behind the leg" or "rather tense" are ways to express an opinion in a rational and unemotional way.  But saying things like "yuck" about someone's pride and joy is rather unnecessary in my book.
		
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Totally agree.  Of course it's a case of each to their own, some would prefer the black horse type (less tension, laid back, behind the leg), others would prefer the chestnut horse type (hot, more tension, etc) and then some would not want either!  But whatever the preference, there is no need to be rude about someones horse.


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## Mearas (29 May 2014)

I agree that there is no need to be rude EVER. It is also interesting the presumption that this horse has not been or would not be successful in competitions?

Interestingly Reiner Klimke (chestnut horse) was an admirer of the training of Nuno Oliveira (black horse).


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## TarrSteps (29 May 2014)

Mearas said:



			I agree that there is no need to be rude EVER. It is also interesting the presumption that this horse has not been or would not be successful in competitions?

Interestingly Reiner Klimke (chestnut horse) was an admirer of the training of Nuno Oliveira (black horse).
		
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I'm confused. The chestnut horse is from a stallion show in 2014 so obviously not trained by Klimke. . ..


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## Mearas (29 May 2014)

Sorry Tarrsteps meant bay horse as in cundlegreens post on the first page.


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## Mearas (29 May 2014)

For me the main difference between the chestnut horse and the black horse is that with the chestnut horse the weight is very much into the shoulder which is particularly clear on the corners. The black horse is not carrying the weight in the shoulder again this is particularly clear in the corners.


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## Auslander (29 May 2014)

Mearas said:



			For me the main difference between the chestnut horse and the black horse is that with the chestnut horse the weight is very much into the shoulder which is particularly clear on the corners. The black horse is not carrying the weight in the shoulder again this is particularly clear in the corners.
		
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It's not even 4! Give the poor thing a chance!


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## Mearas (29 May 2014)

I agree. But at the beginning of this thread I did say it was like comparing apples and pears.


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## Mearas (29 May 2014)

Looking at the quality of the breeding of the black horse it would be very easy to make him hot and tense if you wished to, but it would be very much harder to make a hot tense horse work like the black horse.


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## TarrSteps (29 May 2014)

Mearas said:



			Looking at the quality of the breeding of the black horse it would be very easy to make him hot and tense if you wished to it, but it would be very much harder to make a hot tense horse work like the black horse.
		
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How is he bred?

Of course it's difficult to know without knowing the horse - there are exceptions to every rule. It's also difficult to know if he would remain as ridable under more difficult circumstances. 

Re the chestnut horse being on the shoulder, I think the issue might be HOW he is the shoulder, not just that is young. The point about how his step is shaped behind might come in to it (his step is rounder and more impulsive than the black horse but not necessarily more under the body) but it's also how horses are presented in those situations. It's no secret that 'auction trots' can make horses very tense and strong - lots of very good trainers have weighed in on the subject. I put up a link to a Debbie McDonald article recently where she talks about driving young horses out their balance. When you see top horses working at home, warming up etc they certainly do not trot that way. 

It would be interesting to see the two horses ridden similarly. Otherwise it's almost impossible to compare as individuals rather than productions


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## _GG_ (29 May 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			How is he bred?

Of course it's difficult to know without knowing the horse - there are exceptions to every rule. It's also difficult to know if he would remain as ridable under more difficult circumstances. 

Re the chestnut horse being on the shoulder, I think the issue might be HOW he is the shoulder, not just that is young. The point about how his step is shaped behind might come in to it (his step is rounder and more impulsive than the black horse but not necessarily more under the body) but it's also how horses are presented in those situations. It's no secret that 'auction trots' can make horses very tense and strong - lots of very good trainers have weighed in on the subject. I put up a link to a Debbie McDonald article recently where she talks about driving young horses out their balance. When you see top horses working at home, warming up etc they certainly do not trot that way. 

It would be interesting to see the two horses ridden similarly. Otherwise it's almost impossible to compare as individuals rather than productions
		
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I pay absolutely no attention to the movement displayed when being presented as you say. It is an exaggeration due to increased stimulus. Crikey, even draught horses can look like they have amazing movement when they are charging about the field trying to look impressive. It is calm, working movement that I look at. I do like the black horse in the OP...It's just not my cup of tea movement wise. It looks light at both front and back ends and I like a horse to become light in the forehand, taking the weight behind and I don't see enough of that with the horse in the OP, 

The short, condensed, action packed trailer for a movie shows us all the powerful parts to try and hook us into watching it. The actual film is never like that all the way through...the film as a whole is more balanced. Same with a horse...when you see them presented in such a way as the Chestnut, you are seeing the horses "trailer" made as expressive as it can be to catch the eye and get peoples interest. The horse is not like that all of the time.


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## Mearas (29 May 2014)

I agree with you both TarrSteps and GG. I really dislike young horses being made to produce these extravagant movement under these conditions. Whilst I agree with you _GG_ the black horse taking less weight behind it is probably only halfway through it's training and in time will take more weight behind. I think if you asked for more energy from the black horse at the moment it would not be taken behind it would just force him onto the forehand as both the rider and trainer suggest in the video. 


"It would be interesting to see the two horses ridden similarly. Otherwise it's almost impossible to compare as individuals rather than productions".

 I totally agree Tarrsteps it would be absolutely fascinating to see the two horses together. Just wondered if anyone would like to start another thread comparing the movement in 2 horse say in walk or canter?? I have found it really really interesting to see how people view the different movements, confirmation, biomechanics, training. Thanks everyone whose contributed so much, whilst we have not always agreed it has been really enlightening and very informative.


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## _GG_ (29 May 2014)

Mearas said:



			I agree with you both TarrSteps and GG. I really dislike young horses being made to produce these extravagant movement under these conditions. Whilst I agree with you _GG_ the black horse taking less weight behind it is probably only halfway through it's training and in time will take more weight behind. I think if you asked for more energy from the black horse at the moment it would not be taken behind it would just force him onto the forehand as both the rider and trainer suggest in the video. 


"It would be interesting to see the two horses ridden similarly. Otherwise it's almost impossible to compare as individuals rather than productions".

 I totally agree Tarrsteps it would be absolutely fascinating to see the two horses together. Just wondered if anyone would like to start another thread comparing the movement in 2 horse say in walk or canter?? I have found it really really interesting to see how people view the different movements, confirmation, biomechanics, training. Thanks everyone whose contributed so much, whilst we have not always agreed it has been really enlightening and very informative.
		
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I'll break it down a little more in why I don't like it that much. The shoulder and foreleg movement of the black horse, were it sitting  its weight on the hind end would be lovely...but to have that movement when the weight is not being transferred behind is something that troubles me slightly. Basically, the movement of the shoulder from a neutral (as in standing square) position to a forward position is very good, however the movement from the neutral to the rear position is lacking. The forelegs are not carried very far under the horse in what is an easy trot. I would expect that with more collection or more engagement, but not in this trot and it would worry me a little. I would want to see more backwards freedom through the shoulder in such a standard trot. Not having that full range of movement can mean that a horse finds it harder to perform the lateral movements as well as a horse with more freedom. 

This is very nit picky as like I said, I like the horse, but I can't call it the best trot ever because I think the movement through the shoulder is too forward biased and not rounded enough. It's just not quite right for me.


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## TarrSteps (29 May 2014)

_GG_ said:



			I pay absolutely no attention to the movement displayed when being presented as you say. It is an exaggeration due to increased stimulus. Crikey, even draught horses can look like they have amazing movement when they are charging about the field trying to look impressive. It is calm, working movement that I look at. I do like the black horse in the OP...It's just not my cup of tea movement wise. It looks light at both front and back ends and I like a horse to become light in the forehand, taking the weight behind and I don't see enough of that with the horse in the OP, 

The short, condensed, action packed trailer for a movie shows us all the powerful parts to try and hook us into watching it. The actual film is never like that all the way through...the film as a whole is more balanced. Same with a horse...when you see them presented in such a way as the Chestnut, you are seeing the horses "trailer" made as expressive as it can be to catch the eye and get peoples interest. The horse is not like that all of the time.
		
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Great analogy!


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## TarrSteps (29 May 2014)

_GG_ said:



			I'll break it down a little more in why I don't like it that much. The shoulder and foreleg movement of the black horse, were it sitting  its weight on the hind end would be lovely...but to have that movement when the weight is not being transferred behind is something that troubles me slightly. Basically, the movement of the shoulder from a neutral (as in standing square) position to a forward position is very good, however the movement from the neutral to the rear position is lacking. The forelegs are not carried very far under the horse in what is an easy trot. I would expect that with more collection or more engagement, but not in this trot and it would worry me a little. I would want to see more backwards freedom through the shoulder in such a standard trot. Not having that full range of movement can mean that a horse finds it harder to perform the lateral movements as well as a horse with more freedom. 

This is very nit picky as like I said, I like the horse, but I can't call it the best trot ever because I think the movement through the shoulder is too forward biased and not rounded enough. It's just not quite right for me.
		
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That's a popular movement for American hunters, quite flat but a bit 'flicky'. It often goes with a flat movement behind, too. Ideally I'd like to see only a puff of dust when the hind foot lands, placed under the body, no sign of a toe drag. 

But as you say, we are talking perfection not reality!

Just a point to type, I do think people get blinded by body type/breeding. One of the best canters I've seen recently was on a 14 hh cob from the sales. It was balanced, rhythmical and precise. His walk was also very good. Trot not spectacular but again, easy and balanced. I doubt anyone would have picked him out as a horse for sport but his biomechanics were certainly in place.


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## Mearas (29 May 2014)

_GG_ said:



			I'll break it down a little more in why I don't like it that much. The shoulder and foreleg movement of the black horse, were it sitting  its weight on the hind end would be lovely...but to have that movement when the weight is not being transferred behind is something that troubles me slightly. Basically, the movement of the shoulder from a neutral (as in standing square) position to a forward position is very good, however the movement from the neutral to the rear position is lacking. The forelegs are not carried very far under the horse in what is an easy trot. I would expect that with more collection or more engagement, but not in this trot and it would worry me a little. I would want to see more backwards freedom through the shoulder in such a standard trot. Not having that full range of movement can mean that a horse finds it harder to perform the lateral movements as well as a horse with more freedom. 

This is very nit picky as like I said, I like the horse, but I can't call it the best trot ever because I think the movement through the shoulder is too forward biased and not rounded enough. It's just not quite right for me.
		
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 I find this analysis very interesting _GG_ and as you say looking at the very finest detail. It is so interesting that some others have felt that it is not forward enough and even 'idle' from there perspective. Perhaps as you suggest you prefer a more rounded less forward movement, but this is 10 minutes of a lesson so it would be interesting to know where the trainer went with this?


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## _GG_ (29 May 2014)

Mearas said:



			I find this analysis very interesting _GG_ and as you say looking at the very finest detail. It is so interesting that some others have felt that it is not forward enough and even 'idle' from there perspective. Perhaps as you suggest you prefer a more rounded less forward movement, but this is 10 minutes of a lesson so it would be interesting to know where the trainer went with this?
		
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My comments have nothing to do with the forwardness of the horse...it's about the forward motion of the shoulder specifically, if that clears it up. I think forward motion would help the horse look better slightly, possibly...but I also think that forward motion would make the horse flatten out a bit.


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## _GG_ (29 May 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			That's a popular movement for American hunters, quite flat but a bit 'flicky'. It often goes with a flat movement behind, too. Ideally I'd like to see only a puff of dust when the hind foot lands, placed under the body, no sign of a toe drag. 

But as you say, we are talking perfection not reality!

Just a point to type, I do think people get blinded by body type/breeding. One of the best canters I've seen recently was on a 14 hh cob from the sales. It was balanced, rhythmical and precise. His walk was also very good. Trot not spectacular but again, easy and balanced. I doubt anyone would have picked him out as a horse for sport but his biomechanics were certainly in place.
		
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I probably would have. A trot can be worked on, but a good walk and canter are priceless IMO. Someone posted a video of a young black stallion having a bit of fun at a presentation...the canter on that is what would make me interested in it. The walk could not be fairly judged due to the tension in the horse. The trot could not be judged due to the stimulus and extravagant presentation, but the canter....well, the canter can't hide behind anything like the trot can and that stallion had a canter with a lot of potential. Not perfect, but potential. 

When I do get myself a horse again...it will be bought for it's movement and potential and not for it's breed or type. If it takes me years to find it, I don't care, but I will know it when I see it and it will have very little to do with how it trots, lol.


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## Goldenstar (29 May 2014)

I completely agree that the walk and canter in the 'unimproved ' horse are the real indicators of potential .
Apart from driving horses where a natural trot is want you need


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## _GG_ (29 May 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			I completely agree that the walk and canter in the 'unimproved ' horse are the real indicators of potential .
Apart from driving horses where a natural trot is want you need
		
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That's a whole other ball game and one I would not even dare to comment on as I am totally clueless when it comes to driving...would love to have a go though. Haven't done it since I was a kid so I've reverted to being a driving virgin again


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## Goldenstar (29 May 2014)

Returning to the best trot ever question surely it does depend on what the horse is intended for .
An endurance horse or a hunter will need a different type of trot to a dressage horse a driving horse needs a different type of ' step ' again .


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## _GG_ (29 May 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Returning to the best trot ever question surely it does depend on what the horse is intended for .
An endurance horse or a hunter will need a different type of trot to a dressage horse a driving horse needs a different type of ' step ' again .
		
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Far too subjective isn't it!


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## cundlegreen (29 May 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			Returning to the best trot ever question surely it does depend on what the horse is intended for .
An endurance horse or a hunter will need a different type of trot to a dressage horse a driving horse needs a different type of ' step ' again .
		
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I'll wade in with my two pennies worth. Fascinating stuff re "horses for courses". I have a Hackney mare here, only broken at 7. Always consider this breed as a driving horse, BUT... why are they not used to improve the sport horse breeding? Naturally uphill and forward, very sound, and with the right bloodlines, sane enough to get a tune out of in any discipline. Link to two videos. The first, as a green horse in harness, but showing willingness and fair rhythm...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysEgsktbo0E 
The second taken this year at the age of 10, coming back after 2 years off having a foal. VERY tense due to first time in an arena, and horrified at the judges car! 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_5keZmUtOk
Apologies for the very amateurish riding, usually, she's very forward, so I wasn't carrying a whip or wearing spurs. However, just at the end, she showed some relaxation, and scored a 9 for her trot. Very experienced judge's comment "stunning horse in the making". She didn't know she was a Hackney. Of course the canter work can be interesting, and this breed is like marmite when seen under saddle!


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## _GG_ (29 May 2014)

cundlegreen said:



			I'll wade in with my two pennies worth. Fascinating stuff re "horses for courses". I have a Hackney mare here, only broken at 7. Always consider this breed as a driving horse, BUT... why are they not used to improve the sport horse breeding? Naturally uphill and forward, very sound, and with the right bloodlines, sane enough to get a tune out of in any discipline. Link to two videos. The first, as a green horse in harness, but showing willingness and fair rhythm...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysEgsktbo0E 
The second taken this year at the age of 10, coming back after 2 years off having a foal. VERY tense due to first time in an arena, and horrified at the judges car! 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_5keZmUtOk
Apologies for the very amateurish riding, usually, she's very forward, so I wasn't carrying a whip or wearing spurs. However, just at the end, she showed some relaxation, and scored a 9 for her trot. Very experienced judge's comment "stunning horse in the making". She didn't know she was a Hackney. Of course the canter work can be interesting, and this breed is like marmite when seen under saddle!
		
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I hope you gave yourself a stiff drink after that test...well done for "managing" all that energy!


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## TarrSteps (29 May 2014)

cundlegreen said:



			I'll wade in with my two pennies worth. Fascinating stuff re "horses for courses". I have a Hackney mare here, only broken at 7. Always consider this breed as a driving horse, BUT... why are they not used to improve the sport horse breeding? Naturally uphill and forward, very sound, and with the right bloodlines, sane enough to get a tune out of in any discipline. Link to two videos. The first, as a green horse in harness, but showing willingness and fair rhythm...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysEgsktbo0E 
The second taken this year at the age of 10, coming back after 2 years off having a foal. VERY tense due to first time in an arena, and horrified at the judges car! 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_5keZmUtOk
Apologies for the very amateurish riding, usually, she's very forward, so I wasn't carrying a whip or wearing spurs. However, just at the end, she showed some relaxation, and scored a 9 for her trot. Very experienced judge's comment "stunning horse in the making". She didn't know she was a Hackney. Of course the canter work can be interesting, and this breed is like marmite when seen under saddle!
		
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They were used extensively in North America - Clyde x Hackney jumpers were standard fare and another cross with tb formed the back bone of Hunter Improvement books.

The big problem is the canter. There simply isn't a place in modern high level sport for horses without good natural canter. Even the freaks who are carriage bred but canter well themselves don't usually have the genes to pass it on.


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## TarrSteps (29 May 2014)

And before everyone jumps all over me, I've ridden some lovely Hackney and Standardbred types. Very sound, strong horses. But the question was why aren't they being bred back in to modern sport horses. Even in my memory the carriage origins showed up much more in many sport horses. The books have spent decades trying to keep the bits they want and breed out the bits they don't. It would be too risky to start again when there are more predictable options


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## Goldenstar (30 May 2014)

I own an ASB .
He's started out as a driving horse ( he's papered as a Dutch harness horse) and was really too hot for that so at ten he had a career change .
Talk about having to think outside the box teaching him to canter has been a challenge of epic proportions .
He is tough sound brave can do a lot of work and weirdly has taken to hunting where he's a brave and careful jumper if not the most relaxing ride .


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## TarrSteps (30 May 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			I own an ASB .
He's started out as a driving horse ( he's papered as a Dutch harness horse) and was really too hot for that so at ten he had a career change .
Talk about having to think outside the box teaching him to canter has been a challenge of epic proportions .
He is tough sound brave can do a lot of work and weirdly has taken to hunting where he's a brave and careful jumper if not the most relaxing ride .
		
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Interesting that he is hot. Generally they are known for their very good minds, although I would have said more unflappable than technically quiet. Mind you, I've mostly met ones out of racing and that's a pretty hardcore life so I imagine they've seen it all. They quite often end up as Mennonite horses, which can be a mixed blessing

They often do jump well. I know a few that event at the lower levels - very safe although not usually super competitive.


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## rara007 (30 May 2014)

Im not sure KWPN tuigipaarden or hackneys are known for having good minds or unflappable! Even the Hackney enthusiasts admit they're hot and the dutch harness horse breeders admit their KWPNs spookiness compared to Gelderlanders.


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## TarrSteps (30 May 2014)

rara007 said:



			Im not sure KWPN tuigipaarden or hackneys are known for having good minds or unflappable! Even the Hackney enthusiasts admit they're hot and the dutch harness horse breeders admit their KWPNs spookiness compared to Gelderlanders.
		
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I was referring to Standardbreds. 

Hackneys, not so much. Some of the Clyde Hackney crosses were very spooky indeed!


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## rara007 (30 May 2014)

Ahh phew thought you'd lost the plot! Standardbreds do seem very kind


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## Goldenstar (30 May 2014)

rara007 said:



			Im not sure KWPN tuigipaarden or hackneys are known for having good minds or unflappable! Even the Hackney enthusiasts admit they're hot and the dutch harness horse breeders admit their KWPNs spookiness compared to Gelderlanders.
		
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My horses parents where Dutch imports from the US the stallion is known for hot offspring full of presence for the show driving classes .
He's an interesting character not at all spooky , driving did not suit him simple as that his mind is busy and he's very clever if he had been started as a single it might have been different but he started in a team it did not suit but he's unflappable in a disaster I have seen stand loose by his rider while the other horses leave him when the rider was wiring up a gate we had cut open and ten minutes later turning himself inside out because he did not want to stand in the field .
He certainly would have show jumped if I had cracked developing the canter quicker he's extremely careful .
And he does have the most amazing ground covering trot it was fantastic sitting behind in on a carriage driving out and about .
He is loyal and knows his people and cautious with strangers  I am fond of him.


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## TarrSteps (30 May 2014)

Interesting. The show classes seem to be a bit of a different scene - from the little bit I've seen horses off the track do show up in them but more are 'fair' types, flashier and better looking. They don't call the race horses 'jug heads' for nothing! (It's a term of endearment, really.)

I taught a bit at a farm that also bred them for the track and I found watching the foals fascinating. I'm used to seeing sport and tb foals canter when they play but it was interesting to see all these little bay foals trotting and even pacing when they their foal races. They even did that funny amble I always thought was a product of they way they were produced for racing. 

I can't say how much of their later temperament comes from the way they are produced for racing. They work very hard and the culture is a bit more utilitarian than flat racing. I would think any horse that comes through sound and sane is pretty tough.

Watching groups of youngsters bred for different jobs is one of my areas of interest. It certainly puts paid to the idea they are blank slates!


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## Goldenstar (30 May 2014)

Tatts never cantered at play when he arrived he did spider trot instead as his riding training has progressed he does now play in canter ( having a TB friend perhaps helped ) and he looks more normal in his movement as he has learnt to use his body more the extreme extravagance with his limbs has reduced.


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## cundlegreen (30 May 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			They were used extensively in North America - Clyde x Hackney jumpers were standard fare and another cross with tb formed the back bone of Hunter Improvement books.

The big problem is the canter. There simply isn't a place in modern high level sport for horses without good natural canter. Even the freaks who are carriage bred but canter well themselves don't usually have the genes to pass it on.
		
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Very interesting.I can't get my head around a Clyde cross Hackney! I had another little Hackney who qualified for the National Dressage Championships under saddle. Scored very highly with one judge, badly with the other.Apparently a portugese drassage trainer came over, and really loved his way of going. That figures?


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## HufflyPuffly (30 May 2014)

This has to be one of the most fascinating threads I've read in a long time!

I've had nothing to add but the talk about Hackney's made me want to mention Topaz. 
She's a Hackney x Friesian and is the most talented horse I've ever ridden. We bought her to jump but have turned to dressage this year and our instructor is very excited about her. As although her trot is her strongest pace by far, her canter isn't too bad naturally (she's definitely a freak of her breeding as she was bred to be driven), she can canter on the spot if she wants to. 
The biggest challenge I have is when I ask for things in the canter, I tend to (unintentionally) block her movement and then because it is her weaker pace she struggles a lot more, though it is me as loose or in the field she has a lovely canter.
Looking at her I couldn't understand why there are not more with her breeding in the sports horse world, until it was pointed out just what a bizarre result she really is...

I'm now paranoid about breaking her by asking things which 'should' be hard for her but yet she finds ridiculously easy . How do you know if your on the road to a breakdown when your horse offers all the collection and cadence without you asking for it? 

Sorry I'm going off track but it is something that is on my mind, that just because she wants to do it, should she?

As you were people .
x x


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## _GG_ (30 May 2014)

AlexHyde said:



			This has to be one of the most fascinating threads I've read in a long time!

I've had nothing to add but the talk about Hackney's made me want to mention Topaz. 
She's a Hackney x Friesian and is the most talented horse I've ever ridden. We bought her to jump but have turned to dressage this year and our instructor is very excited about her. As although her trot is her strongest pace by far, her canter isn't too bad naturally (she's definitely a freak of her breeding as she was bred to be driven), she can canter on the spot if she wants to. 
The biggest challenge I have is when I ask for things in the canter, I tend to (unintentionally) block her movement and then because it is her weaker pace she struggles a lot more, though it is me as loose or in the field she has a lovely canter.
Looking at her I couldn't understand why there are not more with her breeding in the sports horse world, until it was pointed out just what a bizarre result she really is...

I'm now paranoid about breaking her by asking things which 'should' be hard for her but yet she finds ridiculously easy . How do you know if your on the road to a breakdown when your horse offers all the collection and cadence without you asking for it? 

Sorry I'm going off track but it is something that is on my mind, that just because she wants to do it, should she?

As you were people .
x x
		
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Go into your training with no assumptions. Clear the slate, forget the type and breeding and what she "should" be and concentrate only on what she can be. 

There are some horses that just have a gift for certain things. Ride her the same way you should ride any horse....with no preconceptions or solid plans. Just an ability to read the horse, respond and react in a way that encourages them and takes them forward. You lucky thing, she sounds wonderful


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## HufflyPuffly (30 May 2014)

_GG_ said:



			Go into your training with no assumptions. Clear the slate, forget the type and breeding and what she "should" be and concentrate only on what she can be. 

There are some horses that just have a gift for certain things. Ride her the same way you should ride any horse....with no preconceptions or solid plans. Just an ability to read the horse, respond and react in a way that encourages them and takes them forward. You lucky thing, she sounds wonderful 

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Well we certainly went in with no expectations for dressage, however now it has been shown and talked about how far she 'could' go it's made for a slightly scary wake up call about just what a wonderful horse we have on our hands!

With my novice incompetence she has qualified very easily for Novice Regional's, and we are now playing with moving up to Elementary and perhaps a Medium towards the end of the year, once we've installed half-pass and sitting trot . However this will only depend on how well she continues her current trend of all dressage moves are easy...

It is my lacking that I'm worried about, to not have the ability to read things when they are too hard for her? Is it true that most horses can go up through the scales on dressage but it is just the expression and cadence which cannot be forced, and if they are then this is when problems can start? Asking for too much sit etc?

She is currently learning flying changes which is apparently the most fun ever , not for me to sit to mind as it is all up, up, up , but they have been a massive breakthrough for counter canter as now she waits for me to ask for the change instead of just offering it. It's like everything is very exciting when she's learning it and then once she knows it she's desperate to learn the next thing, it all just feels like its too fast paced and she should really be taking longer...

The Canadian horse that was talked about earlier reminds me of this as well, as I know if I asked she would give me passage all day long and we can see piaffe being very easy for her (we have done the merest start of half steps which showed her potential), and yet the steps in front haven't been walked yet.

I cannot believe that I was never interested in dressage before as it is a fascinating journey!

x x


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## TarrSteps (30 May 2014)

^ That. If she is offering and isn't struggling then you're good to go. Lucky you.

I don't know if my earlier comments contributed to your musing but I said effectively the same thing, that 'should' doesn't really come into it. You have to assess the horse in front of you. The comments about type and breeding have to do with picking horses that will clearly struggle with a task and then insisting they do it, regardless. Your situation seems the opposite - perhaps your horse would look unsuitable on paper but in real life she's keen and capable.


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## HufflyPuffly (30 May 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			^ That. If she is offering and isn't struggling then you're good to go. Lucky you.

I don't know if my earlier comments contributed to your musing but I said effectively the same thing, that 'should' doesn't really come into it. You have to assess the horse in front of you. The comments about type and breeding have to do with picking horses that will clearly struggle with a task and then insisting they do it, regardless. Your situation seems the opposite - perhaps your horse would look unsuitable on paper but in real life she's keen and capable.
		
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She is very much not suppose to do the things she does if you only looked at what her breeding is! I'm not sure Friesian's and Hackneys are renown for their jumping abilities which are only limited by the height of my wings and size of our school , which was the reason we bought her.

I should add that I'm not drilling her with harder and harder movements, just asking for things to help improve us. So we introduced lateral work, (mainly shoulder-in), to help her medium trot, as well as asking for a little more sit to help her stay uphill and up when she does extend. We started walk-canter-walk transitions to help the quality of her canter, flying changes to help our counter canter etc.

Plus all this is great at home, but trying to find the same relaxation in a competition is proving elusive to say the least! Which is why we've thought about going up the levels to give her more to think about and less to spook at, but of course when she does have a melt down at the blue pole outside of the arena next to wheelbarrow of doom, it does mean its harder to recover from when the movements come so much faster...

But yes I should probably stop over-thinking it and just enjoy her, as she's just fantastic and really wants to please .

x x


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## Deseado (30 May 2014)

I think Mr President was a hackney/gelderlander/unknown cross? I'm not surprised the Portuguese trainer liked your mare as they have the same sort of high, round movement that is found in the Iberian breeds (or was, until they started tinkering to produce more modern types :-( The main problem with using hackney, friesian or other driving bred horses for modern dressage is the way that they use their backs (or rather don't), and the canter is often problematic. This is not surprising as they were developed to trot, and to pull rather than carry.


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## Auslander (30 May 2014)

I think it may have been me who put the wind up you, as I started the sub conversation about breaking horses that weren't designed to do the job. It doesn't sound like she is struggling, so I wouldn't worry. They were just idle musings on my part, based on my own horse. For his breeding (Shire/TB), he's a very athletic shape (when in proper work!), and although he was never a flashy mover, he was very trainable and very correct, which is how he achieved what he did. Fundamentally though, he is a puller, not a pusher, and the degree of sit needed at the higher levels is harder for him than it is for a horse like the lovely grey in Sols post on the piaffe thread. He has excellent piaffe and passage, but he has to work harder to perform them correctly than a horse who is designed to push instead of pull. He's also a very big horse, who is slightly light of bone - can't help!


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## HufflyPuffly (30 May 2014)

Auslander said:



			I think it may have been me who put the wind up you, as I started the sub conversation about breaking horses that weren't designed to do the job. It doesn't sound like she is struggling, so I wouldn't worry. They were just idle musings on my part, based on my own horse. For his breeding (Shire/TB), he's a very athletic shape (when in proper work!), and although he was never a flashy mover, he was very trainable and very correct, which is how he achieved what he did. Fundamentally though, he is a puller, not a pusher, and the degree of sit needed at the higher levels is harder for him than it is for a horse like the lovely grey in Sols post. He has excellent piaffe and passage, but he has to work harder to perform them correctly than a horse who is designed to push instead of pull. He's also a very big horse, who is slightly light of bone - can't help!
		
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haha don't worry these are thoughts I've been pondering for a while and this thread just voiced them .

See it comes back to it doesn't it, she is bred to pull not push....

However I think not making the height they wanted (15.2hh instead of 16.2hh+) and having legs like tree trunks ( ok I've exaggerated but she does have lots of bone), will stand her in good stead. It will be interesting to look back in 5 or 10 years time and see what our progression actually became. 

Maybe all the bucking and bronco'ing has helped, as she certainly made good use of her back then . Plus I think because she's older and physically mature, she has the fitness and musculature to be able to preform the movements I'm asking for quicker than if I was asking a baby horse to do them. 

As I said this thread is fascinating to read through, I'd love to get a good video of Topaz so that her biomechanics and conformation could be judged as I know very little of what I need to be looking for, we just struck lucky with her I guess .

x x


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## Leg_end (30 May 2014)

I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread, takes me back to the old HHO where you could have a good debate with opposing views without a fight 

I completely agree with TS in that having a horse physically able to do the job is key and one more people should pay attention to. It's something I've had a personal debate over whilst bringing my horse back into competitive work. Should I be doing it? He is bred for it, loves it and is sound right now. I have taken things VERY slowly with him though.... 

I watched a terrifying vid on YouTube the other day of a lovely chunky cob xc schooling. The horse just didn't have the strength or ability to carry itself over the fences and looked in serious danger of landing on them. They were no more than 80cm. Should that horse have been doing it - ears were pricked and it kept going forward but physically it was struggling?


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## cundlegreen (30 May 2014)

Auslander said:



			I think it may have been me who put the wind up you, as I started the sub conversation about breaking horses that weren't designed to do the job. It doesn't sound like she is struggling, so I wouldn't worry. They were just idle musings on my part, based on my own horse. For his breeding (Shire/TB), he's a very athletic shape (when in proper work!), and although he was never a flashy mover, he was very trainable and very correct, which is how he achieved what he did. Fundamentally though, he is a puller, not a pusher, and the degree of sit needed at the higher levels is harder for him than it is for a horse like the lovely grey in Sols post on the piaffe thread. He has excellent piaffe and passage, but he has to work harder to perform them correctly than a horse who is designed to push instead of pull. He's also a very big horse, who is slightly light of bone - can't help!
		
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My Hackney is def a pusher! Any sudden stimulus will get her lowering right down behind and going into power mode. AlexHyde, you know what I mean. I would imagine passage and piaffe would be easy, as she can sometimes when tied up and wanting to be going, simply lift the front end right up. I have seen her doing a very nice levade in her box when getting worried about something outside. There is a misconception that this breed doesn't use their backs, but this stems from the wagon horses, who have their heads fixed with a tight bearing rein. They then tend to trot with the back hollowed and crouched behind, which I think is a very wearing movement. Pic of my mare using her back.....
http://rs714.pbsrc.com/albums/ww146/cundlegreen/DSC_1170_zps156577e7.jpg~320x480?t=1401448429


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## PolarSkye (30 May 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			^ That. If she is offering and isn't struggling then you're good to go. Lucky you.

I don't know if my earlier comments contributed to your musing but I said effectively the same thing, that 'should' doesn't really come into it. You have to assess the horse in front of you. The comments about type and breeding have to do with picking horses that will clearly struggle with a task and then insisting they do it, regardless.
		
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This . . . all day long, this.

It's all about the horse in front of you - and being honest about their limitations, if not in the short term, then certainly in the long run.  However, just because it "can" doesn't mean it should . . . for its long term health.  

The Friesian cross Hackney sounds lovely . . . and as though she will go far in sympathetic hands .

P


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## HufflyPuffly (30 May 2014)

cundlegreen said:



			My Hackney is def a pusher! Any sudden stimulus will get her lowering right down behind and going into power mode. AlexHyde, you know what I mean. I would imagine passage and piaffe would be easy, as she can sometimes when tied up and wanting to be going, simply lift the front end right up. I have seen her doing a very nice levade in her box when getting worried about something outside. There is a misconception that this breed doesn't use their backs, but this stems from the wagon horses, who have their heads fixed with a tight bearing rein. They then tend to trot with the back hollowed and crouched behind, which I think is a very wearing movement. Pic of my mare using her back.....
http://rs714.pbsrc.com/albums/ww146/cundlegreen/DSC_1170_zps156577e7.jpg~320x480?t=1401448429

Click to expand...

 I certainly know what you mean, Topaz scared the bejesus out of the dentist last time she was here by doing a grand impression of a levade as she was bored and we were next door with Doodle . She's silly but she thinks she's great .

Also generally if spooked from behind (which is a lot :rolleyes3 it feels like you've completely lost the back end its that far underneath you and it all goes up, which is probably the same as what you've mentioned as 'power mode' .

x x


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## PolarSkye (30 May 2014)

Deseado said:



			I think Mr President was a hackney/gelderlander/unknown cross? I'm not surprised the Portuguese trainer liked your mare as they have the same sort of high, round movement that is found in the Iberian breeds (or was, until they started tinkering to produce more modern types :-( The main problem with using hackney, friesian or other driving bred horses for modern dressage is the way that they use their backs (or rather don't), and the canter is often problematic. This is not surprising as they were developed to trot, and to pull rather than carry.
		
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So perhaps a decent, relatively fine cob type crossed with a good quality hackney could produce something useful?

I'm asking because that's what our little foalie at the yard is.  Dam is a nice stamp of a coloured cob . . . decent conformation, short-coupled, nice bone but not heavy . . . sire is a prize-winning, registered hackney stallion with HOYS winners in his immediate dam and sire line.  Foal (a filly) looks VERY like the sire in colouring (chestnut/sabino), has some bone, is nice and short in the back . . . I know they'd like to produce the filly to show first and then jump . . . personally, I'm thinking she might make a nice little dressage horse (she probably won't make more than 15hh max).

Will be interesting watching her grow up.

P


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## Auslander (30 May 2014)

I think it's often the horses that are on cursory inspection, fit for purpose, that may be the ones that end up with an issue. No-one in their right mind would take on a horse with glaringly horrible conformational weaknesses, and try to to turn it into a GP dressage horse (you'd hope!) - but it's far easier to take on something that looks like its almost built for the job. 

Apologies for banging on about mine - but he is interesting in the context of this discussion (I think!) I've dug out a pic where you can see exactly how he is put together. If I went to see him, I'd probably think he was a nice strong sort who could handle the work, and although not perfect, is put together in an athletic enough way that he wouldn't struggle too much. He din't struggle to do the work when he was doing it, but it caused a whole heap of problems, which pretty much put him on the scrap heap in his early teens.


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## Mearas (30 May 2014)

Leg_end said:



			I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread, takes me back to the old HHO where you could have a good debate with opposing views without a fight
		
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I totally agree Leg-end. It is so great when people discuss things because you can actually learn from others.  Perhaps H&H could organise for us to have a like button. I have not posted for a while because it can be very addictive and time consuming but so often I read something and wish I could just 'like'it to show my agreement/enjoyment


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## rara007 (30 May 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			So perhaps a decent, relatively fine cob type crossed with a good quality hackney could produce something useful?
.

P
		
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A first Gen warmblood! More risk than two known WBs that cross knowing you've got the best of the draft and the hotblood from several generations ago, but if the genes work perfectly...


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## Cortez (30 May 2014)

This is a Spanish horse, quite light but very Baroque in his shape and movement. Has all the carrying power you'd ever need and does piaffe, passage, etc. with a smile. Hasn't got the length of trot you'd need to be competitive in modern dressage, but is pretty much my ideal for what I want to do and has all the "sit & carry" that I'm looking for.


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## HufflyPuffly (30 May 2014)

Auslander said:



			I think it's often the horses that are on cursory inspection, fit for purpose, that may be the ones that end up with an issue. No-one in their right mind would take on a horse with glaringly horrible conformational weaknesses, and try to to turn it into a GP dressage horse (you'd hope!) - but it's far easier to take on something that looks like its almost built for the job. 

Apologies for banging on about mine - but he is interesting in the context of this discussion (I think!) I've dug out a pic where you can see exactly how he is put together. If I went to see him, I'd probably think he was a nice strong sort who could handle the work, and although not perfect, is put together in an athletic enough way that he wouldn't struggle too much. He din't struggle to do the work when he was doing it, but it caused a whole heap of problems, which pretty much put him on the scrap heap in his early teens.






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See I think he is lovely, could you possibly point out what problems occurred and if relevant what conformation/bio-mechanics contributed? Was he trained for dressage from a baby and when did he breakdown? Sorry if you'd rather not answer these questions, I'm just genuinely interested .

Again (to bang on about my own ride ) I wouldn't have said Topaz is the best put together but then she certainly doesn't seem to be struggling at the work being asked of her...

If anybody has the inclination to give their thoughts on her, here is a video of a novice test we did way back in January, as you can imagine she has come on a lot since then and her canter for starters is far less wild .
[video=youtube;W9_--anZf5k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9_--anZf5k[/video]

She is tense, hot and spooky so not the best video of her but it does give an idea as to her general way of going. Apart from her bounciness I'm pretty clueless as to why she will be good at dressage, or why she finds it easy to sit and collect?

I'm aware she will probably not make a top dressage horse , but she scores well when her mind is on task.

x x


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## Cortez (30 May 2014)

See pic above yours of the grey and that'll maybe shine a little light on why she can sit - plenty of articulation of the hind joints (not just hocks, BTW, also hip & pelvis), set-on of the neck & head, front legs a little forwards on the body. I also have a half Friesian mare who is the best thing on 4 legs, bless her, but has the most awful confirmation and shouldn't be able to do what she does.

P.S. If your mare ever wants to try her hand at Baroque riding displays just send her over, she's lovely!


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## HufflyPuffly (30 May 2014)

Cortez said:



			See pic above yours of the grey and that'll maybe shine a little light on why she can sit - plenty of articulation of the hind joints (not just hocks, BTW, also hip & pelvis), set-on of the neck & head, front legs a little forwards on the body. I also have a half Friesian mare who is the best thing on 4 legs, bless her, but has the most awful confirmation and shouldn't be able to do what she does.

P.S. If your mare ever wants to try her hand at Baroque riding displays just send her over, she's lovely!
		
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 Thank you, I think I know what I'm looking at but then it's all new to me so then I'm not sure . 

She is lovely when behaving but not so much when doing acrobatics above the ground, though I think she would look fabulous in Baroque displays I'm not convinced you'd want her really .

P.S. the grey is beautiful, and is that you riding?

x x


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## Cortez (30 May 2014)

AlexHyde said:



 Thank you, I think I know what I'm looking at but then it's all new to me so then I'm not sure . 

She is lovely when behaving but not so much when doing acrobatics above the ground, though I think she would look fabulous in Baroque displays I'm not convinced you'd want her really .

P.S. the grey is beautiful, and is that you riding?

x x
		
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Yes, that's me, and a very rare example of me riding with a helmet on (it was a Riding Club do). I'll see if I can post a pic of us at the day job.


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## Cortez (30 May 2014)

This is a half Friesian mare; this is what I do with my horses and why a "modern" type won't do.


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## Auslander (30 May 2014)

AlexHyde said:



			See I think he is lovely, could you possibly point out what problems occurred and if relevant what conformation/bio-mechanics contributed? Was he trained for dressage from a baby and when did he breakdown? Sorry if you'd rather not answer these questions, I'm just genuinely interested .

x x
		
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Don't mind in the slightest! He has arthritic changes in hocks and stifles, and proximal suspensory desmitis - hasn't broken down as such, but he' isn't right behind, and hasn't been for a long time. Sometimes he's sound and fine to work lightly, sometimes he's lame. He's just terribly fragile - bless him. 

He's 17 now, has been produced as a dressage horse since the age of 4, and until he started going lame, he was working GP at home, and competing PSG. I cannot fault the people who had him before me, he's always been carefully produced, and there is very little with his conformation that would indicate he would break down. 

Although he's muscled in a sporty way - years and years of training, he has elements of draft horse which are more noticeable when he is unfit, when it is obvious  that he is a puller, rather than a pusher. He does have a tendency to curl the front end up and power along on his shoulders, with the back end active but not engaged. It can be corrected so he works properly, but he finds it easier to charge along with his nose on his chest!

For me, he is a bit weak in the second thigh, slightly straight through the hocks, and camped out behind, with long cannon bones - and he's a bit light of bone for such a big horse (17.1hh). He's also very short in the back for a horse of his size, and although that's supposed to be a good thing, I think too short can lead to issues in the same way that too long does. He gets excessively tight over his back, which in turn makes his second thigh tight, which makes his suspensories sore - it's all a bit of a vicious circle. If I do lots of hacking, stay off deep surfaces, and do a lot of flexibility work with him, he's fine, but to get to that stage, I have to work him through a few periods where he is unsound for a few days. Its very hard to know what to do - as work is good for him, he's a lot more comfortable when he's semi fit and in work, but it makes me cringe when he feels unlevel for those few days!


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## Goldenstar (30 May 2014)

Cortez said:









This is a half Friesian mare; this is what I do with my horses and why a "modern" type won't do.
		
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Ha , long coat , feather( or part of dead animal ) attached to hat ,nicked the boots from a cat in a pantomime ,Clearly a classical person.


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## JFTDWS (30 May 2014)

Cortez said:









This is a Spanish horse, quite light but very Baroque in his shape and movement. Has all the carrying power you'd ever need and does piaffe, passage, etc. with a smile. Hasn't got the length of trot you'd need to be competitive in modern dressage, but is pretty much my ideal for what I want to do and has all the "sit & carry" that I'm looking for.
		
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Gorgeous!

Looks like a better bred, Spanish version of Fergus   Sorry


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## PolarSkye (30 May 2014)

rara007 said:



			A first Gen warmblood! More risk than two known WBs that cross knowing you've got the best of the draft and the hotblood from several generations ago, but if the genes work perfectly...
		
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Ha!  You wait until I tell the owner she has a warmblood on her hands .  Being serious for a minute, I am genuinely fascinated by this little foal . . . sire's line has some amazing quality in it and the dam is nicely put together . . . however, we all know that that could mean squat in the grand scheme of things . . . but so far her temperament is wonderful (bold, friendly, calm but not rude) . . . she isn't being over handled but is relatively trusting of people . . . she is a tad long in the pastern but otherwise is a nice shape, is nice and strong and has a lovely little canter on her (but then she is only two weeks old - today).

As I said before, it will be very interesting to watch this young lady grow up.  Her "posh" name is Sequoia Amazing Grace . . . graceful she certainly is.

P


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## PolarSkye (30 May 2014)

JFTD said:



			Gorgeous!

Looks like a better bred, Spanish version of Fergus   Sorry 

Click to expand...

You're not wrong there . . . but then I am rather partial to Fergus.

P


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## Caol Ila (30 May 2014)

Compare it to this.  For fun, here are pics of my Shire-TB cross.  Same as Auslander's.  Except she is 21, 16.1hh, sound, but got as far as medium-ish before she told me where to shove my dressage ambitions. She's willing if she thinks she can do it, but lacks that extra bit of "try" when really pushed.  When things are physically difficult, she just says, "Nah...  don't think I can be bothered."  Never mean or silly or stressy about it -- she is the master of calmly ignoring aids if she thinks you are being daft.  Dunno....  maybe that has kept her sound all these years. 

I want a Spanish horse as my next horse.


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## tristar (30 May 2014)

i like the black horse s trot because it shows cadence and relaxation from which can come true lengthening, eventually, the trainer asks for very little extension, which the horse delivers, in no way is the horse pushed out of its stride or unbalanced, when the horse walks it is allowed to stretch down its head.

the chestnut horse, i think, should be in a field eating grass, at his age, not leaping around like a fairy, although i see what there is to like about him, but as a  breeding stallion he is too weak in the loins for my taste and looks engineered by  breeding and manufactured in his training   whereas the black horse looks  natural, unforced and unhindered by his rider


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## cptrayes (30 May 2014)

Seriously impressed Cortez, by you doing a levade  without having to use the reins. Such great proof that the horse is in self carriage and nothing is being forced.


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## HufflyPuffly (31 May 2014)

Hmm on my phone and it won't let me quote!

Cortez she is a beautiful mare and makes a lovely picture, it looks so much fun! What confo faults would you say she has which should limit her?

Auslander, thank you that was really interesting to read. Though doesn't help me with my worrying, I guess it's a case of do nothing with them so you can't break them or see how you get on and stop when it's physically too much....
Or pay for scans and X-rays every month to moiniter them &#128516;, could see my mums bank balance objecting to this.

Is it fair to say that a good back end is more important to have right, as this is where you are asking them to sit?

Sorry totally off subject now., though I think Topaz has the best trot ever ;-). 

x x


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## Cortez (31 May 2014)

AlexHyde said:



			What confo faults would you say she has which should limit her?

Is it fair to say that a good back end is more important to have right, as this is where you are asking them to sit?

Sorry totally off subject now., though I think Topaz has the best trot ever ;-). x x
		
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The mare is built totally downhill (14.2h at "withers" - she has none - and 15.1h at croup), is very long in the back, has a straight hind leg. She has a very good neck, set on perfectly (for my job, i.e very high on the shoulder - thank you Mr Friesian Daddy), and an enormous, powerful hindquarter. But mostly what she has is the most beautiful, willing temperament, which is, at the end of all the single most important ingredient - along with soundness! Despite having atrocious conformation she is 16 years old, has worked all her life since the age of 3 and never taken a lame step (touches all available wood!)

"though I think Topaz has the best trot ever"...of COURSE she does.


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## TarrSteps (31 May 2014)

Re the above comment about soundness. . .some horses are just tough. Usually it goes with intelligence/sense too, as they keep themselves out of trouble, but it can't be denied some horses just have iron constitutions. 

Even beneficial biomechanics isn't as simple as having 'good conformation'. Different structures support different jobs more easily and being exceptional in one area can make up for deficiencies in another. 

I have a bit of a theory that people have become quite reductionist in their views when choosing horses. They go by what they see and often discount what they 'feel'. It's true knowledge is the backbone of intuition but it's how you mix and apply that knowledge that counts. All the people I've known with a talent for picking good horses have been very knowledgeable but they've also liked what they liked.


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## _GG_ (31 May 2014)

TarrSteps said:



			Re the above comment about soundness. . .some horses are just tough. Usually it goes with intelligence/sense too, as they keep themselves out of trouble, but it can't be denied some horses just have iron constitutions. 

Even beneficial biomechanics isn't as simple as having 'good conformation'. Different structures support different jobs more easily and being exceptional in one area can make up for deficiencies in another. 

I have a bit of a theory that people have become quite reductionist in their views when choosing horses. They go by what they see and often discount what they 'feel'. It's true knowledge is the backbone of intuition but it's how you mix and apply that knowledge that counts. All the people I've known with a talent for picking good horses have been very knowledgeable but they've also liked what they liked.
		
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I used to be the "eyes" for a fairly inexperienced buyer when I was a kid/teenager. At the sales one day, I saw a little Chestnut that looked like it had been put together out of parts from all sorts of breeds, but I convinced Bob and he was bought for £80. 6 months and many SJ ribbons later, he sold for £4k. Not long after that, I saw a 15.2hh TB x and took a real liking to her. Again, Bob looked at me and said her feet are shot, she's got a square back end, no substance etc....I convinced him though and she came home. Bob remained unconvinced, so I begged my parents and we bought her for £1500. When at Hartpury and competing AM dressage, we turned down some stupid money for her. She was baby, I wasn't going to sell her, but despite her flaws, she was an exceptionally talented little horse. 

Having a good eye for a horse has nothing to do with being able to spot the perfect conformation or type IMO...but it has everything to do in being able to see beyond the shell in front of you and assess the horse for what it could be. Sometimes, I honestly can't put my finger on what makes me like a horse....but my gut screams at me and I listen. It hasn't let me down yet.


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## Mearas (31 May 2014)

tristar said:



			i like the black horse s trot because it shows cadence and relaxation from which can come true lengthening, eventually, the trainer asks for very little extension, which the horse delivers, in no way is the horse pushed out of its stride or unbalanced, when the horse walks it is allowed to stretch down its head.

Totally agree Tristar

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## TarrSteps (31 May 2014)

_GG_ said:



			I used to be the "eyes" for a fairly inexperienced buyer when I was a kid/teenager. At the sales one day, I saw a little Chestnut that looked like it had been put together out of parts from all sorts of breeds, but I convinced Bob and he was bought for £80. 6 months and many SJ ribbons later, he sold for £4k. Not long after that, I saw a 15.2hh TB x and took a real liking to her. Again, Bob looked at me and said her feet are shot, she's got a square back end, no substance etc....I convinced him though and she came home. Bob remained unconvinced, so I begged my parents and we bought her for £1500. When at Hartpury and competing AM dressage, we turned down some stupid money for her. She was baby, I wasn't going to sell her, but despite her flaws, she was an exceptionally talented little horse. 

Having a good eye for a horse has nothing to do with being able to spot the perfect conformation or type IMO...but it has everything to do in being able to see beyond the shell in front of you and assess the horse for what it could be. Sometimes, I honestly can't put my finger on what makes me like a horse....but my gut screams at me and I listen. It hasn't let me down yet.
		
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I knew a guy when I was a kid who was a pretty lousy rider but he could walk into a field of a hundred horses and say, 'That one' and was never wrong. Too bad he ruined the ones he kept!

One of the necessary skills for trainers in the North American system is the ability to assess horses for clients and it's a real knack. Interestingly, people who are a bit agricultural about it are often more successful as don't get blinded by non essentials.


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## Mearas (31 May 2014)

tristar said:



			i like the black horse s trot because it shows cadence and relaxation from which can come true lengthening, eventually, the trainer asks for very little extension, which the horse delivers, in no way is the horse pushed out of its stride or unbalanced, when the horse walks it is allowed to stretch down its head.

the chestnut horse, i think, should be in a field eating grass, at his age, not leaping around like a fairy, although i see what there is to like about him, but as a  breeding stallion he is too weak in the loins for my taste and looks engineered by  breeding and manufactured in his training   whereas the black horse looks  natural, unforced and unhindered by his rider
		
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I did just want to add that I think allowing the horse to stop and stretch regularly and certainly after some good work is a really undervalued thing. In the video the black horse did perhaps six fantastic strides and was then allowed to stop. It is a great way to teach a horse to recognise when he has done the correct thing.


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