# Wierd young horse problem



## JanetGeorge (9 January 2016)

I may well regret posting this here - but it's so desperate I'll take the risk in the hope SOMEONE has an idea we haven't tried.

Sir John is  3 - hell, no, he's officially 4!  He has been a nervous **** since before he was gelded.  Absolutely NO reason for it.  I know his mother, and his grandmother VERY well.  I know his father well - and have had dozens by him, and grandfather even better!  We backed his full sister 6 months ago - she's a kid's pony.

When  I say 'nervous', most of the time he can't be caught in the stable without feed - sometimes he won't even come to feed.  He has shown signs of nervous aggression. (Got me  with both barrels when I was leaving the stable after 20 minutes of quiet talking to him!)

I tried him on Bromide (on vet suggestion) and for a few weeks he appeared to be getting a BIT better - then a standstill.  Now I'm trying chelated calcium - it's a last  resort.  To make matters worse, he's currently on oral antibiotics as the only possible treatment for an abcess in a hind foot.

If I come to the decision to put him down (and I'm VERY close) I'll have to get the guy over from the safari park with a dart gun to trank him first - that's how bad he is.  It breaks my heart - he's a good looking young horse and everything says he should be a sweetie - not a nut case.  He hasn't actually deteriorated in the past 12 months, which makes brain tumour unlikely.

Does anyone have ANY idea of what it could be - or what  I could try?? 

I AM trying to organise thermal imaging to see if we can isolate a point of pain.


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## rachk89 (9 January 2016)

What are you feeding him? Might have something to do with that but it's a long shot. He could be allergic to something and it's causing this reaction as he doesn't understand. 

It could be something messed in his head from birth. Did he have another owner before you and could they have done something to him? Horses aren't born scared unless it's been taught or neurological.

Could be his back, could be muscular pain, could be a skeletal problem. I think to diagnose this multiple x rays and scans are required I am afraid and that will cost a lot. It's whether you think it's worth it but if he was never abused and he isn't in pain then my guess is its the brain and you can never repair a brain, human or animal. Brains have no repairing abilities only diversion. I am sorry but if that's the case I would put him down even though he is young. He is in distress and not enjoying life. Sorry you have to make that decision though.


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## Leo Walker (9 January 2016)

Can he not be sedated to have the abscess treated and be examined?


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## nicelittle (9 January 2016)

Well Janetgeorge. I have to say that I regard you as a very experienced horse person, and if you are asking for advice you must have tried and considered everything.
That's not much help, but I guess I want to say if you think he needs to be PTS, I would think that you might be right.
Wishing you luck


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## stormox (9 January 2016)

I firmly believe you can get 'rogue' horses that dont necessarily have bad genes, or bad upbringing. Just the same as you get human criminals with perfectly good parents and education.


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## kinnygirl1 (9 January 2016)

Eyesight? We had one on my old yard who became nervous and difficult to catch in her stable...turned she had gone blind virtually overnight they think due to a bang on the head or a neurological problem. Sadly she was pts tho.


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## Ladyinred (9 January 2016)

Is this the same youngster you nearly had PTS some months ago but gave him a last minute reprieve? If so, then I think you have to put your own and your staff's safety first and, sadly, have him PTS. We all know the depth of your experience and,tbh, If you can't find a solution then I doubt anyone else could.


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## rachk89 (9 January 2016)

kinnygirl1 said:



			Eyesight? We had one on my old yard who became nervous and difficult to catch in her stable...turned she had gone blind virtually overnight they think due to a bang on the head or a neurological problem. Sadly she was pts tho.
		
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Ah I didn't think of that would make sense though. Could even just be one eye that is blind or its just limited sight in both.


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## Asha (9 January 2016)

Ladyinred said:



			Is this the same youngster you nearly had PTS some months ago but gave him a last minute reprieve? If so, then I think you have to put your own and your staff's safety first and, sadly, have him PTS. We all know the depth of your experience and,tbh, If you can't find a solution then I doubt anyone else could.
		
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This ^^^

Not an easy decision , Feel for you.


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## PorkChop (9 January 2016)

nicelittle said:



			Well Janetgeorge. I have to say that I regard you as a very experienced horse person, and if you are asking for advice you must have tried and considered everything.
That's not much help, but I guess I want to say if you think he needs to be PTS, I would think that you might be right.
Wishing you luck
		
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Completely this, I would hope you find the cause but if you don't, my sympathies x


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## shadowboy (9 January 2016)

Out of interest was he nervous when with the dam? Did the nervous behaviour just suddenly happen?


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## only_me (9 January 2016)

Eyesight?

Or is it worth trying to get a blood sample and testing to see if he's low in anything. Maybe selenium deficiency?


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## Orangehorse (9 January 2016)

You are a very experienced horse person who probably knows more than most of us on the DG!  

I had a friend in a similar situation with a home-bred horse that was always correctly handled, well broken, etc. etc. that she had to have PTS in the end although it broke her heart.  She had probably got a bit further with hers, as it was broken in, but it was putting her and her staff at risk.  With hindsight and with looking at videos of it as a foal/youngster, she thinks there was a pain issue that started fairly early, but despite lots of investigations she wasn't able to find the issue, and in the end decided that she could not risk anyone getting hurt.

If you feel you have explored everything, and the horse is a danger, then it is a shame but if he is an unhappy chap, then PTS may be the only solution.  There was a guy, a "healer" who would do "whole body scans" but I don't know if he is still around.  I know that he was able to help vets in some cases.


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## mega spoilt ponies (9 January 2016)

Gastric ulcers from weaning?? Can make them v nervous/jumpy


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## The Fuzzy Furry (9 January 2016)

Janet, the only thing I can think of is some poss trauma to top of head/neck, poss interfering every time he moves? Had similar in a homebred, only found out when a PM was done at Potters Bar as a 3 yr old.
That said, you've given this chap every go, it sounds like you dont have much more to try.
All I can do is wish you all the best x


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## popsdosh (9 January 2016)

Eyes?  First idea would be brain tumour they dont necessarily have to get worse.


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## Possum (9 January 2016)

Could be hormonal potentially? Any chance there was an issue with the castration and he's now showing the rig-type unpredictability of unregulated testosterone? I know you said it started before he was gelded but if there was some sort of abnormality it might explain why gelding him hasn't improved matters?

Otherwise the only thing I can think of is either that something's sending his adrenal gland haywire so he's permanently fight-or-flight, or some sort of non-degenerative neurological issue, either from birth or eg a cyst that you wouldn't necessarily expect to continue to grow and worsen symptoms?

You have my sympathies.


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## JillA (9 January 2016)

Chelated calcium?? To me that is contra indicated - mine was like that when he was deficient in magnesium, he was the most difficult horse to back and ride away, he was permanently running on adrenaline. Magnesium oxide transformed him in a couple of weeks, but calcium cancels out the balance of whatever magnesium he does get from grazing or forage, so has the potential to make it worse. They recommended calcium to me without even assessing whether he was getting adequate levels (as it happens my forage analysis and soil analysis shows very high levels) and it was money entirely wasted, I really don't understand the rationale for it. Magnesium apparently blocks the over production of adrenaline, hence the running on adrenaline scenario, but calcium would counteract that.
(I have to say I was very experienced, not to the same degree but 40 years breeding a foal most years, and it stumped me to begin with, until I read a discussion on magox. We never stop learning do we!)
If you have tried magnesium without any calcium and that hasn't helped, can Sarah Braithwaite suggest anything. Or Jenny Paterson from Calm Healthy Horses (http://calmhealthyhorses.com/index.html), she is always willing to help if you email her


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## BBP (9 January 2016)

It doesn't sound quite the same but my little horse has always been a highly strung panicky horse for no reason that I can tell. He will freak out over absolutely nothing, even though he has never had a bad experience with me (I however have had plenty of bad experiences with him!) I've had him since he was 3, he's now 10, and I'm only just starting to get some answers. He has always tested with high muscle enzymes in his blood, this year I had a biopsy done and he has been diagnosed with recurrent exertional rhabdomyolysis. I believe it causes him pain and is also the cause of his highly strung, unpredictable nature. Stress or excitement cause his cells to release calcium differently to other horses, the calcium then fills the receptors that should be open to magnesium to relax the muscle fibre so he physically can't relax easily once stressed. I've seen him tie up once but looking back it could have been happening without me knowing. He also has gastric ulcers, a sacroiliac field injury and I'm thinking of having his back x rayed. Liver problems can also cause aggression and strange behaviour. I've had mines head CT scanned in the last year as his behaviour was so bizarre, that was all fine. So I think his muscle disease is responsible for more than I might be aware of.

Just an idea as doesn't sound just like mine.

I should add, the calcium issue is thought to be completely independent of dietary intake, feeding more magnesium did nothing for him.


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## moorhillhorses (9 January 2016)

I would treat him for everything that's suggested above. Including ulcers . Rule everything out. It will be expensive but you might regret never giving him the chance. Blood test for allergies and treat that foot will he is sedated. Maybe get one of those natural horse man ship guys in todo join up . Worked with a very very nervous horse we had! I would suggest comfort gut in his feed as well its a great tummy settler. I've seen horses change quite a bit on it x


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## Goldenstar (9 January 2016)

I bred one like this out of a mare we had owned from a youngster and a stallion I had others by but from a different mare .
She was an issue from day one it's a long story but it ended when she attacked me when I was gently grooming her she must have got me with a fore leg and I came round outside the box I must have got my self out and shut the door, I was happily wearing a crash cap.
I went and sat in the school and cried I thought out every senario everybody who might what to take her on ( and there are always people who will have a go with a free nicely made horse whose was the perfect type people want ) .
She showed aggression from an early age nothing bad ever happened to her I followed my gut feeling and PTS .
It still haunts me a bit .
It felt like  a huge failure .


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## MyBoyChe (9 January 2016)

Janet, I agree with the poster who said that as a very experienced and, I would add, rational and sensible horse person, if you are asking for help and are on the verge of PTS, then it may well be that you really have run out of options and pts is the safest and responsible thing to do.  The only things I can think are eyes or ears, blindness or deafness issues maybe.  The only other thing, and Im clutching at straws as have no experience and not even sure if its probable, but maybe something missed at gelding time, is it possible that he still retains too many male hormones and these are causing havoc with his temperament.


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## paddy555 (9 January 2016)

I had a similar one that was dangerous, one broken ankle and I wouldn't dream of going into the field without the tractor between me and him. I cannot begin to remember the times he went over me. Leading out i hand was impossible. He just got worse and worse and he shouldn't have. His parents were lovely and there was no reason why this horse shouldn't have been the same. I cannot being to count the number to times he stood up at me when asked to do something. Lunging was with 2 reins if I wanted to live! 

I considered PTS many times but I was lucky as no one else had to deal with him. 

It took me many years to find the solution purely by chance. He is now rideable, easy to handle in the stable, I can push him around with no headcollar, lead by his mane, all those sorts of things we take for granted. 

His extreme spookiness and aggression was due to pain. The pain was due to muscle pain. The muscle pain was due to vitamin E deficiency. When I resolved the problem I had the beginnings of a different horse within days. 
His is now 6 months down the road, easy to deal with, can be safely led around the roads yet before I couldn't even lead him out of the gate he was that bad. Ridingwise most of the fear and spookiness has gone. Far from being horrible and aggressive he is the sweetest chap and loves a cuddle. 

You can blood test for low vit e level however it is just as quick to test it and work on evidence based results. In your position I would feed 12000iu split into 2 lots per day of natural vit E oil (I am assuming this is a big irish draught type) Mine got 10000iu and was around 500kg. 
If you wanted to eliminate this it would take a couple of weeks to start seeing results and would cost around £50 for equimins nat vit E oil. I started to see results in days, just a little nicer, more friendly, gradually less spookier and happier to be handled. The positive results just continued and we built on them. 

I was very close to PTS with him as I could see no future where he wouldn't be dangerous. It was purely by chance I stumbled on the solution.


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## Slightlyconfused (9 January 2016)

MyBoyChe said:



			Janet, I agree with the poster who said that as a very experienced and, I would add, rational and sensible horse person, if you are asking for help and are on the verge of PTS, then it may well be that you really have run out of options and pts is the safest and responsible thing to do.  The only things I can think are eyes or ears, blindness or deafness issues maybe.  The only other thing, and Im clutching at straws as have no experience and not even sure if its probable, but maybe something missed at gelding time, is it possible that he still retains too many male hormones and these are causing havoc with his temperament.
		
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Agree with this. 
Xx


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## Fools Motto (9 January 2016)

Agree with those who comment on the fact that you janet, are one of the most experienced and well respected posters on this forum. I fear there is little extra advice that hasn't been mentioned. However, if you state this 'started' since he was gelded, could it be something to do with that area of his anatomy? I don't know if there is anything that can be done, RigCalm perhaps?
I also know, that if our instincts keep coming back to  PTS, then it is usually sadly the case. Safety first for all those who handle him, and if that can't be done...
Thinking of you.

ETS, re-read, since before he was gelded? maybe the rigcalm isn't such a great idea as I doubt it will change him. 
Maybe think outside the box, get a hair sample and a spiritual reader??


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## Wheels (9 January 2016)

Somethings making me think it could be something to do with the head, teeth problem maybe or nerve damage somewhere.

I might get xrays / scans of the head and teeth and if nothing showed up there call it a day.


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## Alec Swan (9 January 2016)

Bearing in mind your level of experience,  then sadly I believe that you're clutching at straws.  At the age of four years and having no point which could direct you to a likely cause,  I suspect that you have only one option.  Even considering that there may be an external cause which has brought about this problem,  I suspect that a 'cure' is beyond the wit of man.  Sorry,  I wish that I could give you hope.

Alec.


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## JanetGeorge (9 January 2016)

Thank you all SO much - there are a few ideas there! (Some positive, some not so - but all equally valued.)

Had a 2nd day today  of putting him throughthe stocks that  are  in the same barn as his stable.  That  involves opening the  door, shooing him out, then positioning helpers so the entrance  to the stocks is the only practical route.  Hedid it better today than yesterday  - food  also involved.  I'm not yet prepared  to try  shutting him in - which we'd have to do to make thermal imaging practical.

To answer a few questions:  his feeding is very simple.  As much haylage as he'll eat, and a SMALL quantity of non-heating coarse mix and Grazon - with added minerals and vits.  No chance it's eyesight - his is brilliant!  And no chance  it's testosterone - I was there at the castration and both testicles came out cleanly.

Sedating isn't an option (without the  guy at the Safari Park with a dart gun!)  Giving him Sedalin wouldn't work either - you can't get a syringe in his mouth even when he's going through a catchable phase (he's had his  wormer in his  feed.) 

And yes - this is the same one I  was considering PTS a couple of months ago - but he then improved enough to give me hope.  The nervousness was first noted at weaning - but didn't raise great concern then - they are all a bit different at this stressful time.

Ulcers are about the only thing thing that I think MIGHT be a problem we could do something about - and that will start as quick as I can get the right medication.  And hopefully we'll get him to the stage where a thermal imaging scan MIGHT stand a chance of showing us the area of the problem - although if it's anywhere near his brain ......


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## be positive (9 January 2016)

No additional suggestions other than regarding sedation, I had a pony that was impossible to get a syringe near, he was not easy for the vet either so in order to make things less stressful I was given acp tablets to give prior to veterinary treatment when required, I think they are no longer approved for equines for some reason, they were put in his feed and knocked him out fairly successfully, if your vet could give you some it would be worth trying and certainly easier than a dart gun.


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## JanetGeorge (9 January 2016)

There's a chance - I'm sure my vet would be happy in this case!  Thanks!


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## zaminda (9 January 2016)

The vet will still give you acp in this case, I was recently given some!! Ulcers and thermal imaging would be where I would be going. Good luck.


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## Fun Times (9 January 2016)

Brace yourself for a potentially ridiculous response BUT here goes...am guessing you bred him and he has always lived at your yard possibly eating haylage from your own land or the same supplier. How about just swapping him on to hay bought from a different place and keeping him off the grass just for a few days? Am just wondering if its something in your forage which he can't tolerate. Have known a horse allergic to nettles and another allergic to most types of grass. 
But I am afraid that deep down I agree with the posters who have commented on your level of experience and if you guys are struggling with this horse then I am not sure he is cut out to be a horse.


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## Alec Swan (9 January 2016)

Is orally administered ACP still available?

Alec.


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## hobo (9 January 2016)

No advice to give as you are one of the most experienced poster I know but i wish you good luck. There are some good tips on here the vit E one interested me as I have a very difficult young mare who though easier than your young horse you need your wits about you all the time. I really hope you find a way through for him.


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## stormox (9 January 2016)

I think sedalin is ACP, Alec


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## Leo Walker (9 January 2016)

For a completely feral pony out on huge acreage a friend made a jam sandwich with the sedative in and chucked it on the ground for the horse to eat, then left them to it. It meant they ate it and didnt get chance to get worked up


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## Booboos (9 January 2016)

If it was another poster everyone would be advising them to take the horse to an experienced professional...you are the experienced professional, if you are thinking PTS, then that's probably the best thing to do.

For what it's worth we have ACP in granule form here (France), you just add it to the feed so hopefully it is also available in the UK. If I had to guess I would say the horse is in pain but how much you want to investigate before you call it a day is a very difficult decision. Ulcers, metabolic diseases, allergies to feed, chronic arthritis...the list will be long.


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## rachk89 (9 January 2016)

Fun Times said:



			Brace yourself for a potentially ridiculous response BUT here goes...am 
guessing you bred him and he has always lived at your yard possibly eating haylage from your own land or the same supplier. How about just swapping him on to hay bought from a different place and keeping him off the grass just for a few days? Am just wondering if its something in your forage which he can't tolerate. Have known a horse allergic to nettles and another allergic to most types of grass. 
But I am afraid that deep down I agree with the posters who have commented on your level of experience and if you guys are struggling with this horse then I am not sure he is cut out to be a horse.
		
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Could be that. Some horses react badly to haylage anyway a few at my current yard do and can't have it. But yeah probably is a pts job and i hate recommending that but he hates life it seems.


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## Kezzabell2 (9 January 2016)

I'm sure this has probably been thought of already! but have you tried hay rather than haylage? 

I started giving my horse 1 slice of hi fibre horsehage a day, which is supposed to be non heating!  he was evil when he was having it!  he stood in the school and damn right refused to go forward with my instructor, rearing and bucking but not going forward.  He also chucked me off out hacking, which he's never done before!

I stopped the haylage and within days he was like a different horse!


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## Pearlsasinger (9 January 2016)

Please, please, please take him off the coarse mix.  I had a young WelshDxTB mare who couldn't tolerate even a teaspoonful, it made her behaviour absolutely irrational and apparently erratic, although we later realised that it related to the times that she was fed.  I would also swap the haylage for hay - I prefer not to feed haylage to any horse.
I even have a Westphalian Draft mare who has had to be taken off grassnuts because they were too heating for her!
If you would like more info about the food intolerant mare, do PM me but since her, I have always suspected food is the root of many problems - and have solved quite a lot of issues by simplifying the diet.


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## shergar (9 January 2016)

Hi Janet you may be describing a psychomotor seizure ,a complex partial seizure in the area of the brain that controls behaviour, during this type of seizure consciousness is altered and bizarre behaviour such as unprovoked aggression  and irrational fear  is exhibited.                                                                                                                       I am not sure how to do a link with  the page  that will explain , if  you Google PSYCHOMOTOR SEIZURES IN HORSES and then click 2nd one down on that page  HORSE NUTRITION CO..ZA  the page you  will then be on is EQUILIBRATE .                                        
Not sure if this will help ,but see what you  think .


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## dominobrown (9 January 2016)

We had one, of 3, which was a nutcase. His brother and sister (full brother and sister I may add) where not clever horses but easy to do, fine to break in, nice to have around etc. But one brother was like you describe extremely nervous, aggressive and really stupid, as in he would rear up and hit his head on things. He never displayed normal behaviour... one day when feeding the mares and foals in the field I shouted and they all came galloping up to me except this foal who lay flat out at the bottom of the field. I thought it was dead so I ran down the field calling him, still calling I got right up to him, he didn't move or wake up but was breathing, I touched him and he woke up, tried to kick me and then wandered off. His mother didn't seem bothered about leaving him, neither did other horses as he got older. If people can get extreme autism etc, mental illness, which we still don't know why some people get it and others don't, horses may be the same.
If its not a physical condition, the only other resort would be send him to somewhere completely new. I know on paper this shouldn't work but sometimes a new environment, new eyes etc etc may help him. It would be interesting to see whether it is physical or purely mental.


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## MrsMozart (9 January 2016)

My suggestion would be to stop the haylage.

Cut all sugars to the lowest posible.

Grey Mare becomes unmanageable on any sugars at all. Took us a while to figure it out and during that time, whilst rideable, it was a case of handstand bucks, 180 degree spins in the air, cantering sideways down the length of the school, and wall of death cantering in circles, and that was when D1 had been able to actually get on.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (9 January 2016)

I really think you may have to do the deed, as you can't really sell it on, and you can't risk injury to staff, you may not even be insured if you let someone handle him in the normal way. It's very tough.
I would feed soaked hay, add MgO to max levels,


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## Cortez (9 January 2016)

Ummm, is not life really too short? I mean, you know and I know that there are a hundred other horses that are not a problem......perhaps it is time to leave this one be.


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## Leo Walker (9 January 2016)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			Please, please, please take him off the coarse mix.  I had a young WelshDxTB mare who couldn't tolerate even a teaspoonful, it made her behaviour absolutely irrational and apparently erratic, although we later realised that it related to the times that she was fed.  I would also swap the haylage for hay - I prefer not to feed haylage to any horse.
I even have a Westphalian Draft mare who has had to be taken off grassnuts because they were too heating for her!
If you would like more info about the food intolerant mare, do PM me but since her, I have always suspected food is the root of many problems - and have solved quite a lot of issues by simplifying the diet.
		
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Actually, that rings a bell! My cob is kept on a forage diet with no feed at all, but 2yrs ago when he was 3yr old I moved him to a yard and had to keep him in much more than I would have liked, so I started giving him loads of carrots and parsnips hidden in his hay. He went MENTAL! Literally, dope on a rope to bat ***** mental! I couldnt even get him out of his box without him trying to kick my head in!

Turns out he cant handle sugar in any form without becoming a monster. A small amount of coarse mix would no doubt have him crazed again. It may well not be that, but you have nothing to lose taking him off haylage and coarse mix just in case


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## _Annie_ (9 January 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			...you have nothing to lose taking him off haylage and coarse mix just in case ..
		
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^this! Worth a try, surely?


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## rachk89 (9 January 2016)

And this is why i am worried about my horse getting haylage soon haha. Don't want him to change my nerves can't take it.


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## be positive (9 January 2016)

Unless his behaviour is seasonal I think it unlikely it is feed or haylage related as I assume that the youngsters will run out at grass for the main part of each year having no extra forage or feed, if it is only when he is living in then it would be the most obvious cause but from reading the OP it sounds as if there is no pattern and he is just as nervous when he is out full time.


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## Fun Times (9 January 2016)

be positive said:



			Unless his behaviour is seasonal I think it unlikely it is feed or haylage related as I assume that the youngsters will run out at grass for the main part of each year having no extra forage or feed, if it is only when he is living in then it would be the most obvious cause but from reading the OP it sounds as if there is no pattern and he is just as nervous when he is out full time.
		
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But if JanetG makes her own haylage from the same land, there is a chance, albeit it very slim, it could be something in the grass at that location. We had a horse on our yard that turned out to be allergic to specific types of grass, but had been fine at the previous yard. Mind you, his symptoms were nowhere near as extreme as this horse.


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## Illusion100 (9 January 2016)

I have read your OP, don't know much about this horses story or yourself so I'd like to give a different take on things based on little information.

I'll just spit it out then. I feel you have a heavy emotional investment in this horse for various reasons. Sometimes detachment from such can be just the trick. Send the horse to someone you trust for several months that is not emotionally involved with his back story. Give him a new perspective.

I'm not saying this will be the definitive solution but it's worth a try before PTS.


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## paddy555 (10 January 2016)

Fun Times said:



			But if JanetG makes her own haylage from the same land, there is a chance, albeit it very slim, it could be something in the grass at that location. We had a horse on our yard that turned out to be allergic to specific types of grass, but had been fine at the previous yard. Mind you, his symptoms were nowhere near as extreme as this horse.
		
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there would also be the case of a mineral shortage or imbalance or a vitamin deficiency unless the haylage has been tested and balanced to correct any imbalances  or alternatively possibly a high quality supplement fed. If the horse was getting generally worse over time this is where I would look with a horse who has been in the same home. Any deficiency will be accumulating over time  

I struggle to see the PTS argument. There are a lot of good horses out there and if someone wanted rid of their horse and to get a better one then OK. However in this situation I would go back to a very basic diet of medium quality soaked hay bought in from away plus a high spec supplement and vit E oil. Haylage and any sort of cool mix would not be on my list.


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## ycbm (10 January 2016)

Janet can I ask how you know his sight is good, because the one I had which sounds very like him was going blind and scared witless by it.  He had his centre vision for a while, but was losing the periphery and he reacted violently to all sorts of things. The vet was astonished when she looked in his eyes and said she'd never seen a four year old's or any other horse like it, with peripheral atrophy of the retina.


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## Equi (10 January 2016)

I would not have him on any feed and have him on hay from another location, just to see if it makes a difference. I also like illusions idea of sending him away but fear noone would take him or if they did they would treat him rough to try and put manners in him, which would only make things worse. He just sounds really unsettled and unsure of life. Have you also considered turning him away entirely for a while?


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## Ditchjumper2 (10 January 2016)

I would trust your own judgement! Try the solutions suggested that are feasible but I suspect that this one may be on a one way journey. Given his behaviour it would seem the best option for all concerned. PM results would be beneficial to you if there is something that can be identified.

Never an easy decision, made worse when it is a homebred, but sometimes that is all you can do.


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## fatpiggy (11 January 2016)

I would certainly cut out the sugar.  A friend of mine had a mare which was having severe seizures, often several times a week.  She was advised to cut out the sugar and as soon as she did so, the seizures stopped and never came back.  I've seen with my own eyes what carrots can do to some horses and ponies. There was one on the RS and in the winter we used to have a big delivery of rough carrots from a local farm, so each animal got a scoop full every day. That particular mare did have a very dominant nature and wasn't very fond of humans but when she had the carrots she turned into a holy terror.


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## zigzag (11 January 2016)

As i was reading this thread, i was thinking haylage and coarse mix, I would take him off it, was so glad i got to page two and others were saying it. Had a Section B Stallion who was a dope on a rope, went on haylage and he was Satan, so evil and nasty, we thought it was a brain tumor. took him off haylage and within 3 days he was back to his normal self, haylage and Alfa A  sent him loopy and dangerous


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## epeters91 (11 January 2016)

A bit of a different suggstion, I haven't seen previous post so you might have tried this but is there any chance you could give him a companion? Something calm to nanny him a bit. We've had a nervous young donkey in the past he'd had a bad history and didn't like to be touched or handled so we turned him out with my old gelding they lived out 24/7 were given hay in the field and once the donkey realised he had the freedom to get away from us he started to settle and when he saw that we were bringing food and giving the horse a fuss and treats he became curious. He did have to be put to sleep some years later due to health problems but at that point he loved hugs and would follows us around the field like a puppy


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## smellsofhorse (12 January 2016)

I too would stop the haylage and mix.

Give him hay and a fibre feed.
Try low starch and sugar.
Agrobs is very good for this.
Plus a good all round supplement to rule out any deficiencies.
You could also get him blood tested etc.

Also get his sight and hearing checked.

You might think eyes and ears are is fine, but you want to be certain before ruling them out.


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## Beausmate (12 January 2016)

JanetGeorge said:



			And no chance  it's testosterone - I was there at the castration and both testicles came out cleanly.
		
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I very much doubt this is the cause of your horse's problems, but there have been cases of horses having a third testicle.


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## jrp204 (12 January 2016)

Given that the breeding is know and this temperament is not in line with his parentage etc his future really needs to be looked at. I guess he has been bred for a purpose and since he is gelded I imagine he would be normally sold. Personally I would not be happy selling or even passing on a horse with these issues and as long as I was happy I had exhausted other avenues I would pts. 
I doubt there are many people on here with JG's experience and I imagine she has tried very hard to sort this.


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## JanetGeorge (13 January 2016)

Illusion100 said:



			I'll just spit it out then. I feel you have a heavy emotional investment in this horse for various reasons. Sometimes detachment from such can be just the trick. Send the horse to someone you trust for several months that is not emotionally involved with his back story. Give him a new perspective.
		
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lol, he was one of 11 born the same year - only one other has presented problems - because she's accident prone.  And if I am sentimental about any, she's the one - because she's a grand-daughter of one of my foundation mares.

I wouldn't trust anyone else to cope with him - they'd either be killed - or they'd beat him rotten.  And that's ignoring the cost!


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## Vodkagirly (13 January 2016)

JanetGeorge said:



			lol, he was one of 11 born the same year - only one other has presented problems - because she's accident prone.  And if I am sentimental about any, she's the one - because she's a grand-daughter of one of my foundation mares.

I wouldn't trust anyone else to cope with him - they'd either be killed - or they'd beat him rotten.  And that's ignoring the cost!
		
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I think that says it all, you've done what you can so now the responsible thing is to put to sleep before anyone (or you) is hurt. So sorry, sometimes we never know whats wrong.


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## JanetGeorge (13 January 2016)

paddy555 said:



			there would also be the case of a mineral shortage or imbalance or a vitamin deficiency unless the haylage has been tested and balanced to correct any imbalances  or alternatively possibly a high quality supplement fed. If the horse was getting generally worse over time this is where I would look with a horse who has been in the same home. Any deficiency will be accumulating over time  

I struggle to see the PTS argument. There are a lot of good horses out there and if someone wanted rid of their horse and to get a better one then OK. However in this situation I would go back to a very basic diet of medium quality soaked hay bought in from away plus a high spec supplement and vit E oil. Haylage and any sort of cool mix would not be on my list.
		
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He's fed haylage (from another area), always gets a min/vit mix - and it's the same feeding just over 90 horses here get.  There would need to be something rather wrong with his metabolism for him to have a problem with it.  However, I DO have Vit. E oil on order (one of my last resorts having tried almost everything else I  can come up .)  I'm also thinking of ulcer treatment for a month.  In fact, IF it was ulcers, treating them is about the only thing that would make him saleable in my eyes.  It would take a very odd horse to go 'wrong' on feeding/management that suits all the others fine.  And I value my reputation for selling near perfect horses far  too much.


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## ihatework (13 January 2016)

I have known a couple of horses be complete and utter loons on haylage and a handful of others significantly sharper.

I very much doubt the haylage is the issue here but for the sake of spending £30 on a big bale if meadow hay and trialling for a month?? If you do have ulcers then I have also known ulcer horses symptoms improve just from a switch to hay.


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## abb123 (13 January 2016)

I'm currently  treating my horse for ulcers. I saw a big improvement in behaviour almost immediately. I'm treating her with Nexium (from Costco but can also buy online). She's a big 16.2 hh and is on 14 tablets a day at moment (a pack). I started her off on a low dose and built up to this. I saw a massive improvement on just 4 tablets. Worth trying as a trial as should cost less than £100 for a week or so?


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## amandaco2 (13 January 2016)

Id also try ulcer treatment(in something like fast fibre) hay, no hard feed and see how he reacts. Ulcers can be so painful I wouldn't be surprised it would cause aggressive behaviour and there's nothing to lose by trying this....


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## stormox (13 January 2016)

I think if a horse got this aggressive with a food intolerance, or ulcers, theres a serious problem with its innate temperament. And NO ONE can guarantee where a horse will spend its life (unless you are immortal or make a will saying it should be PTS if you die). So what to do with him? He cant ever be sold, I doubt hed be able to be ridden (how would you bit him if he wont even accept a wormer syringe), he obviously isn't a happy, contented horse, so, although it seems drastic, maybe PTS is the only solution. Seems sad, and a waste of a nice horse, but there are plenty of lovely natured horses out there.


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## paddy555 (13 January 2016)

JanetGeorge said:



			He's fed haylage (from another area), always gets a min/vit mix - and it's the same feeding just over 90 horses here get.  There would need to be something rather wrong with his metabolism for him to have a problem with it.  However, I DO have Vit. E oil on order (one of my last resorts having tried almost everything else I  can come up .)  I'm also thinking of ulcer treatment for a month.  In fact, IF it was ulcers, treating them is about the only thing that would make him saleable in my eyes.  It would take a very odd horse to go 'wrong' on feeding/management that suits all the others fine.  And I value my reputation for selling near perfect horses far  too much.
		
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I am not questioning your expertise in any way whatsoever. Mine was an anomaly. It didn't make sense, he got what everyone else got, he was handled and broken the same way. He simply didn't respond as his breeding and management anticipated. 
I hope either the vit E or possible ulcer treatment work for him. At least absolutely everything possible will have been done for him. Good luck, I have my fingers crossed for him. 

ps if it is the equimins oil you have on order and you need help in using it let me know. Not teaching anyone to suck eggs but it is not the easiest and some of us have developed techniques to tame the stuff!!


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## JanetGeorge (13 January 2016)

abb123 said:



			I'm currently  treating my horse for ulcers. I saw a big improvement in behaviour almost immediately. I'm treating her with Nexium (from Costco but can also buy online). She's a big 16.2 hh and is on 14 tablets a day at moment (a pack). I started her off on a low dose and built up to this. I saw a massive improvement on just 4 tablets. Worth trying as a trial as should cost less than £100 for a week or so?
		
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Brilliant - thanks!  Had a chat to my vet and he thought it was well worth trying.  Have just ordered 5 packs online - which should be enough to show if this is likely to be an improvement.  BIG variation in price on E-bay - I got 5 packs of 14 for £52.45.

Was there a reason for starting low dose and then increasing?


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## abb123 (13 January 2016)

JanetGeorge said:



			Brilliant - thanks!  Had a chat to my vet and he thought it was well worth trying.  Have just ordered 5 packs online - which should be enough to show if this is likely to be an improvement.  BIG variation in price on E-bay - I got 5 packs of 14 for £52.45.

Was there a reason for starting low dose and then increasing?
		
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I only started on a low dose as mine has had serious colic in the past so was a bit nervous about introducing it. The vet says that up to 20 a day is roughly the recommended dose, although there is some debate about whether that amount is needed. I saw a great improvement on 4 almost immediately and even more so now she is on 14. She is like a different horse!


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## JanetGeorge (13 January 2016)

I'm so anxious to try this I coughed up an extra £4 for a fast delivery, lol!  Do you give it in water - or feed?  He's had SO much in his feed he's starting to get suspicious - last week he had a suspected foot abcess so had Norodine, and he's been on the chelated calcium, and just started the vit.e oil!

I thought I'd start him on 7 a day - then bung him up to 14 within a few days.


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## abb123 (14 January 2016)

JanetGeorge said:



			I'm so anxious to try this I coughed up an extra £4 for a fast delivery, lol!  Do you give it in water - or feed?  He's had SO much in his feed he's starting to get suspicious - last week he had a suspected foot abcess so had Norodine, and he's been on the chelated calcium, and just started the vit.e oil!

I thought I'd start him on 7 a day - then bung him up to 14 within a few days.
		
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I'm lucky that my mare is super greedy and just eats them if i give the tablets in a handful of nuts or in her food. They should ideally be swallowed whole and not chewed as they have a coating on them but that is obviously hard to get a horse to do! It is best to feed them on an empty stomach so I give them to my mare when she comes in from the field in the afternoon.


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## Luci07 (22 January 2016)

Any update JG?


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## abb123 (22 January 2016)

I'd like to hear an update too?


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## smellsofhorse (22 January 2016)

stormox said:



			(how would you bit him if he wont even accept a wormer syringe).
		
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Just have to say that has no relevance.
My horse hates being wormed.
I twitch him and cover his eyes and he still freaks.
I've tried an easy wormer but it's still a big fight.

I've had him 7 years!
Wormed him regularly.

But he takes a bit fine!


Any up date JG?


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## Pearlsasinger (22 January 2016)

stormox said:



			I think if a horse got this aggressive with a food intolerance, or ulcers, theres a serious problem with its innate temperament. And NO ONE can guarantee where a horse will spend its life (unless you are immortal or make a will saying it should be PTS if you die). So what to do with him? He cant ever be sold, I doubt hed be able to be ridden (how would you bit him if he wont even accept a wormer syringe), he obviously isn't a happy, contented horse, so, although it seems drastic, maybe PTS is the only solution. Seems sad, and a waste of a nice horse, but there are plenty of lovely natured horses out there.
		
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I can tell that you don't know a human with food intolerance or have one yourself, stormox.  Food intolerances can affect the chemical balance in the brain, seriously affecting mood, temperament and behaviour.  I even know one young woman whose food intolerances caused her to eat razor blades (broken up into small pieces).  A8at alls soon as she got her diet sorted out, she stopped eating them and has gone from being unable to work *at all* to completing a 3 yr University course, gaining a professional qualification.
JG, the fact that all the other horses are fine on the feed that you provide means absolutely nothing as far as the problem horse is concerned.  I  had 4 horses all eating exactly the same hay and other feed, only one had problems with it - and they were serious problems.  She was within days of pts when we cut out everything except hay, after reading a magazine article about intolerance.  Within 3 days she was like a different animal.
And there are several people living in W.Yorks who owe their health and well-being to that mare, as her reaction has led to them consulting an allergy specialist (doctor).


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## Feival (22 January 2016)

I have two friends (brothers) That have PKU which means they are protein intolerant, the smallest amount could leave them in a vegetative state for life, They have to take a huge amount of medication to replicate the benefits of protein in the body, They both lead normal full lives. So on the right diet and with the right medication, If that's what's needed then JG's (who I have the upmost respect for) horse could become a normal calm happy useful horse, like all her others are.


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## MotherOfChickens (22 January 2016)

stormox said:



			I think if a horse got this aggressive with a food intolerance, .
		
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if I hadn't seen what alfalfa did to my old horse I might agree with you. He went from being fabulous on the ground and foot perfect to lunge and handle to not allowing me near him in the box, trying to bite/kick when groomed, throwing himself on the floor in a paddy when lunged and trying to kill me at great speed out hacking-rearing, running through hedges/ditches backwards, staining on front legs and losing all sense of self preservation. He was absolutely  hysterical and couldn't bear to be touched. Completely reversed after 48hours of being off it. Not saying that its the cause of this problem but faced with odd behaviour in the future would lead me to removing all feed and any haylage to see what happened.


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## stormox (22 January 2016)

What I meant Pearlsasinger is if the horse is so dangerous when fed normally that a really experienced owner like Janet is considering PTS,  if in the future someone bought him and didn't know, they could get seriously hurt.....


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## Ladyinred (22 January 2016)

stormox said:



			What I meant Pearlsasinger is if the horse is so dangerous when fed normally that a really experienced owner like Janet is considering PTS,  if in the future someone bought him and didn't know, they could get seriously hurt.....
		
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I really doubt JG would be the sort of person to sell any horse without full disclosure of problems. In fact I doubt she would sell him at all as he stands. She has a great reputation and gorgeous horses.. it just wouldn't happen.


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## stormox (22 January 2016)

I know that Ladyinred but sometimes you just cannot keep control of a horse its entire life, no matter  how much you intend to. There are sometimes unforseen circumstances forcing people to sell horses against their will, and plenty of unscrupulouus dealers out there giving the sob story of  a forever  home and selling on... although hopefully this will never be the case.


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## Mike007 (22 January 2016)

When someone of Mrs georges reputation and knowlege asks for ideas ,I know two things . One. She has tried hard and thought hard about the problem . Two. I respect her even more because she is not too proud to ask. I have very little to offer as sugestions but My instinct is that this is a food/metabolic problem. 
    All horses differ in their needs , and sometimes when we start trying to fix a problem we wind up altering so many variables that we loose sight of what is going on. 
    Haylage , for me is a big no if decent hay is available. There is a long list of problems associated with it , and I would suggest removing it from the equation. It may be completely blameless but it is one less (or rather several less )variables.
      Vitamin E suplementation ,good idea ,just be carefull what else might be in the suplement. Vitamin E cant hurt but other things can . Absolutely no vitamin D suplementation as this can throw the blood calcium levels out of kilter . On the subject of Calcium, I have seen some advocate it as a calmer. My understanding of its metabolism is that once you start using Calcium suplements such as chelated Calcium, you step on a neurological rollercoaster. Too little Calcium in the blood and they go Batshit crazy, so surely giving them a suplement is good , actualy no it can have the reverse effect as the bodys own methods of controlling the level become redundant .The horse becomes more dependent on its next "fix"of calcium. 
    Magnesium is an entirely different matter. Too little and they go bonkers . My ID suffered badly from this whilst growing,and still does to some extent . Magnesium certainly helps and there is no down side (within reason).
    The thing that most jumped out of the page ,to me ,was that you could spend half an hour of quality time with him and suddenly get both barrels. This is a horse that is over reactive and somewhat out of his mind. He wont suffer with no hard feed for a few weeks . Hay not haylage , Vitamin E . Magnesium ,and no chelated Calcium. 
    Good luck Mrs G.


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## Feival (22 January 2016)

I have never ever had a problem feeding Haylage in 21 years, but I know that it has caused many others many problems. EDT We had a horse on livery at work that always looked a little weak and weedy, lots of tests revealed he was anemic amongst other things, the vet suggested Red Cell and the change in him in 24hrs was huge, he went from being sluggish and grumpy To EVIL! He attacked anyone that tried to go in with him and came over the door at both me and the Top Boss,  we didn't give him anymore of it and returned to normal over a few days. He was put on something else I cant remember the name of, and over a few months he became a lovely well muscled horse in fantastic condition.


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## Mike007 (22 January 2016)

Buzz&Biff said:



			I have never ever had a problem feeding Haylage in 21 years, but I know that it has caused many others many problems.
		
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I agree and understand where you are coming from . The thing about Haylage is that to make it safely and of good quality ,it has to be grown as a crop ,much like any other arable crop. Because it is a far more dependable proposition than hay can be ,in a difficult year. Haylage is worth the investment . The down side is that the increased yields also go hand in hand with reduced mineral levels. The hay that is cut from a low yielding bit of meadow will have more minerals and the grasses will be in various states of maturity. Haylage has saved many horses lives and enabled those with COPD to carry on so I am aware of its benefits too.


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## alainax (22 January 2016)

Mike007 said:



			When someone of Mrs georges reputation and knowlege asks for ideas ,I know two things . One. She has tried hard and thought hard about the problem . Two. I respect her even more because she is not too proud to ask. .
		
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Very true. 

I couldn't possible add anything to your horse knowledge, So I am just trying to think of anything quite strange that it could be... Could there be anything winding him up? If he is out is he being terrorised in the herd, something in the field winding him up? Or if in - is his neighbor giving him grief, or a yard cat winding him up? Something that might make him nervous and volatile.


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## Feival (22 January 2016)

My boy has COPD, Haylage and Bedsoft pink are excellent to keep him ticking along &#55357;&#56842;.


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## LiffWee93 (23 January 2016)

Probably a bit off the cuff, but my little mare was feral after being born on the new forest then weaned and came home. She exhibited the same behaviours as op's, extreme nervousness, nervous aggression and the like. The gentle nice approach,  sitting in the stable just talking, sitting with feed bucket etc, really didn't work, made her even more suspicious... We found a more dominant approach really settled her, but taking leadership and taking the decision making away from her took the pressure off and she quite quickly came round, she was by no means easy, but the moment she didn't have an option, she was infinitely better. Not that we were heavy handed or hit her on anything, just a leader for her. She is now one of the boldest ponies I have ever met, but still jas her quirks... Hope you succeed op xx


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## JanetGeorge (23 January 2016)

Well - 4 days into the ulcer treatment and we're having some good days.  Catching him in the stable, leading him out to the manege with his friend Paprika, watching them play normally, and even managing to catch him out there to lead him in!  Whether that's a result of the ulcer treatment - or just a result of the days of running him through the stocks - it's too soon to tell - but I have put shooting him on hold, lol!  I can't put videos on here - but if anyone would like to see him, I have some on my FB timeline.  https://www.facebook.com/janet.george.319247

He's super with Paprika (I did warn him that if he hurt Paprika I would shoot him myself!)They're stabled next door to each other - with wire above the standard sides so they can sniff - and they can also nuzzle each other over the stable doors - so they ARE friends.


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## JillA (23 January 2016)

Sounds like really good progress to me, and that you now hopefully know the key. Fingers crossed it continues, I don't know how long it takes ulcers to heal fully but a few weeks I would think so early days yet.


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## rachk89 (23 January 2016)

Excellent news. Hope he continues to improve. Good call to whoever suggested the ulcers.


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## Alec Swan (23 January 2016)

Well done Janet.  The question remains though;  Are there 'learned' influencing factors to which the horse reacts,  is it because of those i-f,  or is it a matter of an inbuilt disorder?  From your previous,  clearly explained and thoughtful posts,  my money's on the latter,  sadly.  Will you let us know the outcome,  regardless of what it is?

Alec.


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## ycbm (23 January 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Well done Janet.  The question remains though;  Are there 'learned' influencing factors to which the horse reacts,  is it because of those i-f,  or is it a matter of an inbuilt disorder?  From your previous,  clearly explained and thoughtful posts,  my money's on the latter,  sadly.  Will you let us know the outcome,  regardless of what it is?

Alec.
		
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I'm with you on that Alec, knowing Janet's experience.  Are the ulcers the cause of his temperament issues, or are they the result of his temperament issues, or are both a symptom of something else?  I hope his progress continues, Janet.


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## abb123 (23 January 2016)

Great news Janet!!

I hope he continues to improve. 

Costco had a deal on the nexium tablets so they only cost ~£7 a pack. Not sure if it's still on but they are normally ~£8.50 there.


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## Luci07 (23 January 2016)

Horse and Hound ran an article this week discussing ulcers. Really interesting, they did post mortems on native "wild" ponies as part of the research and found that thei completely natural living ponies...also had ulcers.


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## Booboos (24 January 2016)

That's encouraging news, hope he continues to improve.

If you are looking at feed issues it might be worth considering EPMS. I'm on FB group for this and some of the horses on there are very aggressive as a result of the condition, a lot often have ulcers as well, so I t might fit the profile.


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## JanetGeorge (24 January 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Well done Janet.  The question remains though;  Are there 'learned' influencing factors to which the horse reacts,  is it because of those i-f,  or is it a matter of an inbuilt disorder?  From your previous,  clearly explained and thoughtful posts,  my money's on the latter,  sadly.  Will you let us know the outcome,  regardless of what it is?
		
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Of course - although I reckon it will be at LEAST 6 months until I am sure - and only if he  continues to improve at this rate with no bad setbacks.  At present I'm thinking it's ulcers, associated with weaning, with the fear  exacerbated by the joysof castration (if  he  was already hurting, then the pain after castration would have  really added to it.)


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## Feival (3 February 2016)

how's he getting on this week? x


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## JillA (5 February 2016)

Is he still on the Nexium and what dose did you decide on Janet? We are about to try my horse on a treatment for ulcers, as much to rule them out as anything so I could do with something fast acting - I will ask my vet about Nexium (esomeprazole) to avoid having to spend something like £20 a day on Peptizole for three weeks just in case .
Is he continuing to improve?


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## JanetGeorge (6 February 2016)

So far  so good.  He's still on the Nexium - just 7 a day.   He's still being caught in the stable  and in the manege after his play!  We  haven't done  any more with  him apart  from lots of pats and scratches - he  IS still nervous and  Ifear trying to rush  at this  stage  would  NOT  work!  It's just time (and more  ruddy  time!)  And money (and more ruddy money!)  And not knowing whether  we will ever get a result!


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## Alec Swan (6 February 2016)

From reading your interesting posts,  I still wonder if there isn't a neurological flaw of some sort.  Obviously,  without knowing someone personally it's difficult to accurately assess their competence levels,  but reading as I have,  over the years of your lifetime experiences,  I believe that it would be the opinion of most that you have a vast and varied knowledge of equines.  That isn't a false flattery,  it's an important an influencing factor.  With that knowledge,  you've bred and reared an animal which has no preceding evidence,  via siblings or parentage,  you've reared a horse which can't rely upon the influences on his life to explain his behaviour,  and so we can only assume that there is a flaw of some sort within his brain and short of a miracle,  that will remain.  

The most worrying aspect for me is that he displays such nervous behaviour when it would be highly unlikely (to the point of being impossible) that it's as a result of mis-management.  Needing to be 'caught' in his stable and if he'd doesn't come to you willingly,  and with no excuse for it,  simply isn't 'normal',  is it?

That's my opinion,  and should I be proved wrong,  then there will be no one more delighted than I,  except perhaps for you when you declare "Bingo,  we've got there"!!  I genuinely wish you the best of luck with him.  Will you let us know the outcome?

Alec.


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## MyBoyChe (6 February 2016)

I have found this post really interesting and quite uplifting actually.  I find the fact that Janet has bred this horse (presumably a business decision, so for profit at the end of the day), has found a problem with him, has been extremely honest that a: the problem exists,  b: that she's stumped and c: come on an open forum, where lets face it, you risk being shot down in flames, to ask for ideas.  She has weighed them all up and selected an idea and course of action that she thinks best suits and is prepared to spend time and money to resolve things.  Whilst I know she has facilities at her disposal and is not a 1 horse owner struggling with a horse they cant ride, she is a (I presume) businesswoman at the end of the day.  Im sure many would have PTS by now and who could blame them really, what can you honestly do with a horse you consider to be dangerous, she herself said she values her reputation far too much to sell him on.  That she is trying to do the best she can for him is truly heartwarming, businesswoman maybe, but definitely a proper horsewoman   JG, I really hope you get to the bottom of his issues and he is able to go out and be a useful horse  for someone.


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## Gift Horse (6 February 2016)

I wish you all the best with him. I hope he continues to improve.


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## JanetGeorge (6 February 2016)

lol, bloody horses have made sure I'm a near bankrupt business person MyBoyChe!  I lose money on EVERY horse I sell - and ones like the Crazy Man make it even harder.  A  business woman would have  shot him a year (or more) ago and cut her losses.

But he's such a good  looking boy, and so nice when he's being almost sensible - it's a ruddy challenge that can't be ignored.  IF we find an answer - and cure him - i'll then have the job of finding someone capable prepared to take over and take the  risk he'll revert.  Hell, it's hard enough to find the RIGHT  home for the easy ones!


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## Pearlsasinger (6 February 2016)

It's good to hear that you are making some progress with him.  What are you feeding now?


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## D66 (6 February 2016)

If the ulcer treatment is making a difference the next step is to get a good physio type in to loosen off the muscle tensions he could have built up whilst "holding himself", due to the pain of the ulcers.  Typically shoulders, loin and hamstrings.
Well done for persevering.


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## paddy555 (6 February 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			The most worrying aspect for me is that he displays such nervous behaviour when it would be highly unlikely (to the point of being impossible) that it's as a result of mis-management.  Needing to be 'caught' in his stable and if he'd doesn't come to you willingly,  and with no excuse for it,  simply isn't 'normal',  is it?



Alec.
		
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it is normal and
to me it is more than highly likely to be as a result of mismanagement causing pain and probably severe pain. The horse doesn't want to be caught in the stable as he is in pain, he just wants to be left alone to suffer in silence.  Spookiness and ill temper especially. 
That is not mismanagement as in feeding incorrectly, poor handling it is due to not being able to find the cause of the problem. It is very difficult to correctly manage a problem that you cannot work out. Somewhere this chap will be in pain. Somewhere there will have been a trigger. I have seen a similar situation in a horse that was left to live completely alone in a field between 6 and 12 months. He was fed poor quality silage. Stress from being alone and acidity from the silage caused it. 

Hopefully it will be ulcers, could be hind gut ulcers or it will be somewhere else. Once the cause is found and treated then the horse has to learn that it no longer hurts and it can therefore relax and behave correctly. Trying to get rid of the mental fear it has learnt to protect itself is just as difficult as finding the cause.


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## stormox (6 February 2016)

I suppose you never exactly know what a young horse is doing  all the time,he could have fallen at some time, banged  his head or something- no outward marks but damaged brain..... I hope not but seems strange behaviour for just ulcers..


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## JillA (6 February 2016)

paddy555 maybe you could read the whole thread??


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## abb123 (6 February 2016)

Good to hear that he is still improving! It is going to take a lot of time. Mine has been on the Nexium tablets for almost 4 months now. She is a billion times better than she was but it is going to take a bit longer to erase the damage (physical and mental) that years of having ulcers has done.

I don't think that this is in anyway a mismanagement thing. Just like humans, some horses are just naturally predisposed to this sort of thing, even with no family history or accident, and even when everyone else is fine eating the same things. It is just one of those things.



stormox said:



			I suppose you never exactly know what a young horse is doing  all the time,he could have fallen at some time, banged  his head or something- no outward marks but damaged brain..... I hope not but seems strange behaviour for just ulcers..
		
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It is quite usual behaviour for a horse with chronic ulcers.


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## paddy555 (6 February 2016)

JillA said:



			paddy555 maybe you could read the whole thread??
		
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as far as I am aware I have read it. Home bred horse with known parents and known upbringing, no reason why he shouldn't behave perfectly based on his breeding and handling doesn't and is in danger of being shot. Horse may be showing improvement on Nexium which may suggest an ulcer problem. Which bit have I missed?


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## JanetGeorge (6 February 2016)

paddy555 said:



			as far as I am aware I have read it. Home bred horse with known parents and known upbringing, no reason why he shouldn't behave perfectly based on his breeding and handling doesn't and is in danger of being shot. Horse may be showing improvement on Nexium which may suggest an ulcer problem. Which bit have I missed?
		
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lol, well if you could have come up with an EXTRA answer - like why is his behaviour so extreme when the problem we think he has is nasty - but not THAT nasty .......


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## Alec Swan (6 February 2016)

paddy555 said:



			.. . Which bit have I missed?
		
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Perhaps suggesting that the matter involves mis-management didn't help,  when every effort to find resolve is being sought.  Many would have put the horse down,  but the OP hasn't,  she's considering every option and exploring any possibilities,  perhaps from that you may care to think again! :wink3:

Alec.


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## Alec Swan (6 February 2016)

Janet,  I had a filly which I mentioned on here some 3 years ago (4?) and she was deprived of oxygen at birth and had major problems.  A TOTALLY different scenario I accept,  but in the end we had the Withefords turn out to collect her and see if any progress could be made.  'WE' had made many advances,  my OH and a McTimmoney girl,  and though the filly was kind and amenable,  the basic problems remained.

I explained the problem to Craig Witheford by 'phone and he said "Don't worry,  she'll be fine"!  Excellent I thought,  I bet you won't load this thing!  It took perhaps 5 or 6 minutes before she decided to follow him up the ramp and have the partition shut around her.  I was staggered.  There was no malice in the filly at all,  she was a delight,  but there were situations which were beyond her understanding.

The filly travelled down to Lambourn,  within 3 days she was being ridden out,  she'd been trace clipped and shod on the front.  Again,  I was lost for words.  Gary who took her on said that she taught him a useful lesson!  The reason for mentioning this is,  I wonder if presenting your lad with a fresh challenge may have him change his view on life.  I wonder if his apparent problems may be approached by a complete stranger and have him view life differently.

At no point have I ever seen ANY level of force applied to a horse,  by the Withefords.  I cannot speak highly enough of them.

Alec.

ps.  It's just a thought! a.


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## JanetGeorge (17 February 2016)

I'm sure they're very good - but TBH, I just can't afford to throw MORE money at him.  He's already cost more than he could ever be sold for (if he ever gets to a point where I would dare try and sell him!)

My physio 'looked' at him yesterday - she managed to pat him on the  face.  I  MIGHT ry and  get  my vet to do the same  next time  he's here.  The current theory is he has to meet  as many different people as he  can - with all of them being nice to him.  But none of them forcing the point.


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## YasandCrystal (17 February 2016)

I have one that had inexplicable behaviour I have written about several times on here. A very well bred 5 yr old 17.1 WB. He had a 5 stage vetting he flew through, he looked stuffy ridden  but vet said he was the nicest horse he had vetted in a long time. 
Within 24 hrs of taking delivery he was snaking at me over the gate. He would try to bite you at every opportunity. This behaviour quickly escalated to striking with intent and kicking and rearing at his handler. The pros all said he was just a Nasty quirky horse. I couldn't accept that. Horses don't behave like that for no reason.  He was extremely dangerous to handle though and my family were all repeatedly for having him pts. He attacked me badly in the stable on New Years day picking me up by my shoulder with his teeth.
I had him scoped and he had 2 very low grade ulcers which immediately pointed to these being just symptomatic. Frankly he was so dangerous at the vets that they didn't want him back there so I had to think outside the box.
I had an animal communication done with him, a shiatsu therapist out and an iridology report done on the best photos I could get of his eyes. All 3 Said he had a problem with his R/h upper hind. The communicator told me he showed himself going up and over on his R/h side and his left side shoulder and neck also affected. He also detailed horrific abuse he suffered at the hands of a trainer which I later managed to substantiate. The shiatsu lady cried as soon as she touched him stating he was in such pain and he would take months and months to heal (how right was she).
My fabulous vet went ahead and referred him to Sue Dyson's lameness clinic at Newmarket after I discussed the aforementioned. She didn't dismiss me as a quack and Lo and behold some 10 days later Sue diagnosed him with chronic sacro illiac dysfunction R/h side. That cost £4,000. The 3 alternate avenues totalled less than £100, £40 for the communication, £15 for the iridology report and £25 for the shiatsu. Clearly I needed the vet diagnosis for my insurers.

I got LOU for my horse. My insurers kindly let me spend my max £5k vet fees and £1k alternate therapy fees on him until LOU was fully agreed. I had him treated by Donna Blinman for 2 weeks and had a physiotherapist out regularly. Then I turned him away for 18 months. He came back a different horse, we have done months of straightness work and he is a happy boy at last, ready to do get out and about this season. It's taken 4 years and shows how hard mental abuse of a horse is to fix as his body has been fine for a long time now.
I even had cause some months ago when he showed a real reluctance to go on his left rein to get another communication done and the outcome was I was told there was an issue at C3 which had always been there and never addressed. This was true I assumed the left hand stiffness came with the r/h hind injury. I had an osteopath out and after 5 sessions that was resolved. She didn't bat an eyelid that I knew exactly where the problem lie.


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## JanetGeorge (17 February 2016)

Pain is probabl;y the main cause of bad behaviour (followed closely by idiot owners/trainers.)  Thankfully, my physio is SO good she can diagnose and treat in the same day.  Saves me a fortune in x-rays etc.  She suspected kissing spines in one horse at first visit - mare had started random bucking after being very well behaved at backing etc, but not going forward well.  X-rays showed KS in 5 vertebra - with arthritis in 2 - and we'd persevered with the mare for 8 months!  Surgery was a calculated cost - but she's come through it well.


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## Kezzabell2 (17 February 2016)

YasandCrystal said:



			I have one that had inexplicable behaviour I have written about several times on here. A very well bred 5 yr old 17.1 WB. He had a 5 stage vetting he flew through, he looked stuffy ridden  but vet said he was the nicest horse he had vetted in a long time. 
Within 24 hrs of taking delivery he was snaking at me over the gate. He would try to bite you at every opportunity. This behaviour quickly escalated to striking with intent and kicking and rearing at his handler. The pros all said he was just a Nasty quirky horse. I couldn't accept that. Horses don't behave like that for no reason.  He was extremely dangerous to handle though and my family were all repeatedly for having him pts. He attacked me badly in the stable on New Years day picking me up by my shoulder with his teeth.
I had him scoped and he had 2 very low grade ulcers which immediately pointed to these being just symptomatic. Frankly he was so dangerous at the vets that they didn't want him back there so I had to think outside the box.
I had an animal communication done with him, a shiatsu therapist out and an iridology report done on the best photos I could get of his eyes. All 3 Said he had a problem with his R/h upper hind. The communicator told me he showed himself going up and over on his R/h side and his left side shoulder and neck also affected. He also detailed horrific abuse he suffered at the hands of a trainer which I later managed to substantiate. The shiatsu lady cried as soon as she touched him stating he was in such pain and he would take months and months to heal (how right was she).
My fabulous vet went ahead and referred him to Sue Dyson's lameness clinic at Newmarket after I discussed the aforementioned. She didn't dismiss me as a quack and Lo and behold some 10 days later Sue diagnosed him with chronic sacro illiac dysfunction R/h side. That cost £4,000. The 3 alternate avenues totalled less than £100, £40 for the communication, £15 for the iridology report and £25 for the shiatsu. Clearly I needed the vet diagnosis for my insurers.

I got LOU for my horse. My insurers kindly let me spend my max £5k vet fees and £1k alternate therapy fees on him until LOU was fully agreed. I had him treated by Donna Blinman for 2 weeks and had a physiotherapist out regularly. Then I turned him away for 18 months. He came back a different horse, we have done months of straightness work and he is a happy boy at last, ready to do get out and about this season. It's taken 4 years and shows how hard mental abuse of a horse is to fix as his body has been fine for a long time now.
I even had cause some months ago when he showed a real reluctance to go on his left rein to get another communication done and the outcome was I was told there was an issue at C3 which had always been there and never addressed. This was true I assumed the left hand stiffness came with the r/h hind injury. I had an osteopath out and after 5 sessions that was resolved. She didn't bat an eyelid that I knew exactly where the problem lie.
		
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Wow what a lovely end to a very sad story, sounds like your horse was very very very lucky to find you!  Well done on do the right thing by him


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## Exploding Chestnuts (17 February 2016)

Janet, when I had a weird [mental] problem, I rang or emailed Sarah Fisher, in this instance I would be inclined to try her and maybe Gary Witherford, they may have no solution but it can t cost to ask.
As it happens, and by chance, I also had an animal communicator see him,  obviously I was totally sceptical, and this was before his mental issues developed fully. Everything she said was quite correct, and she had no background info on him at all. He was a total complainer, and even complained I had hit him with a whip [to my shame], he was a total PIA at that time, in fact we needed to change his name at one time [long story] and I thought Peter would suit.
I never got my particular problem solved, he just could not cope with too many changes in his field day to day, and due to circumstances I had to keep moving him, which made things worse, but he was just a troubled soul who needed a stable home. I hope he has that now.


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## JillA (17 February 2016)

YasandCrystal - couldn't pass on saying a huge well done on doing the right thing by yours, you must have had many doubts along the way but you hung in there


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## Exploding Chestnuts (17 February 2016)

There are horses who are not trainable by their  owners, but obviously this is not the problem, just do what is best ........... turnout if possible.


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## YasandCrystal (17 February 2016)

Thankyou Kezzabel2 and JillA it has so been worth all the heartache and angst. Something just told me to persevere. I have learnt so much from Tim, he is a true beauty inside and out.


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## Kezzabell2 (17 February 2016)

YasandCrystal said:



			Thankyou Kezzabel2 and JillA it has so been worth all the heartache and angst. Something just told me to persevere. I have learnt so much from Tim, he is a true beauty inside and out.
		
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hopefully one day I will get to the stage you're at!

my horse was a baby when I got him, so I know most of his history, but he's had lots of pain issues and because of this has become super sensitive, reacts very quickly!! I'm hoping that once he's totally comfortable he will learn to be a happy horse again!!


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## JillA (22 February 2016)

Is he maintaining improvement JanetGeorge? I'm still pondering the Nexium, my vet wants to use Peptizole at around £20 per day - for a month eeek!!! And we still aren't certain it is ulcers, this would be diagnosis by therapy - probably about the same cost as having him scoped


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## ycbm (22 February 2016)

JillA said:



			Is he maintaining improvement JanetGeorge? I'm still pondering the Nexium, my vet wants to use Peptizole at around £20 per day - for a month eeek!!! And we still aren't certain it is ulcers, this would be diagnosis by therapy - probably about the same cost as having him scoped 

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Abler.com is your friend!  Same drug as peptizole, less than a quarter the price.


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## JanetGeorge (22 February 2016)

JillA said:



			Is he maintaining improvement JanetGeorge? I'm still pondering the Nexium, my vet wants to use Peptizole at around £20 per day - for a month eeek!!! And we still aren't certain it is ulcers, this would be diagnosis by therapy - probably about the same cost as having him scoped 

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He's still improving.  It's slow - but then the problem HAS been growing over several years.  He's letting more people near him now - and likes his new toy (3 4pint milk bottles, caps removed, tied together with a bit of string.)  He does look disappointed when he hurls it over the door and it doesn't jump back!

I'd try 7 Nexium tabs a day - about £5 a day if you find the best deal on E-bay.  If there's NO improvement in a  week, that's probably not the problem, although memory does play a part.


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## JillA (22 February 2016)

ycbm said:



			Abler.com is your friend!  Same drug as peptizole, less than a quarter the price.
		
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Is that the *ahem* slightly underhand means of getting prescription drugs from abroad? As in don't mention to the vet he can't possibly condone it?


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