# Chasing For Unpaid Livery



## Den83 (10 September 2013)

Hi

I wonder if anyone could give me some advise. I took on a new livery at my yard and she paid half the months livery up front to hold the stable and then the remaining amount when she moved in at the end of July. Her 1st invoice was due to be paid 28th July. I had to chase her and she appeared to be ignoring me as her phone was switched off and she kept coming down the yard much earlier than usual to avoid me! After a week she gave me a cheque which has just bounced. She said she is going to transfer the money, im not all that happy her staying at the yard but is it a bit harsh giving her a months notice now or should I wait to see if the money is transferred and wait to see if she is late again at the end of this month?


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## PandorasJar (10 September 2013)

If playing the avoidance technique and bouncing cheques I wouldn't be impressed. If not upfront about it I'd see it setting a precedence... Know where she was before? Id dig a little, if unusual no worries, if common, I'd be looking to move her on quickly if debts stack up.


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## martlin (10 September 2013)

It's not the greatest of starts, is it? I'm not one to be giving too many second chances, but I think I would wait and see on this one, then, if she does the same next month, just hand her notice.


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## Tobiano (10 September 2013)

Just logged on to say - boot her off now! Well give notice. I would bet you anything that she will be like this the whole time she is there.  Good luck!


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## LadyGascoyne (10 September 2013)

If I were in your position, I would write her an email, keeping the tone friendly and non-judgmental. I'd explain that you are unable to operate a livery yard if tennants don't pay in a timeous fashion. Maybe give her an excuse so as not to push her to defensiveness- perhaps blame moving for her 'forgetfulness'. If you can come across as supportive, you should be able to preserve a future working relationship but your letter could still act as an official warning. Then, if there are any further problems, you're able to terminate the agreement knowing you've given her more than a fair chance.


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## scheherazade (10 September 2013)

Just going to play devil's advocate here for a while, bear with me. You say that the livery was due 28th July and she paid you by cheque a week late. that would have been around 3rd / 4th August. Yet you also say that the cheque has just bounced? Does that mean you were sitting on her cheque for several weeks without paying it in, and is it possible that paying it in coincided with the end of her payment cycle (i.e. you paid it in just before payday) and that she had some unforeseen expenses in the meantime??

Also, depending on what work she does and what time you are generally on the yard, is it possible that her work schedule prevents her from being on the yard whilst you are there and it may not be an intentional avoidance technique at all? I know when I get busy at work there are times when I don't see anyone else at the yard for days on end, and I allegedly only have a 9 - 5 job!

Personally I would give her the benefit of the doubt initially and then hand her notice if she is late for the second invoice. Good luck!


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## Den83 (10 September 2013)

Hi sorry my dates were not correct, her 1st invoice was due 28th August, I paid the cheque in the day I received it. I have advised her that the cheque bounced and she is due to transfer the funds from her building society account to a current account and then transfer to us. My husband thinks this is delaying tactics and that we should call her back and tell her we need the cash ASAP!


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## hairycob (10 September 2013)

It can take a while for a bounced cheque to work it's way back through the system & the payee to be informed. If she is paying by cheque it may be a few days before OP can get to a branch to pay in. The time can get to a month quite easily. I would suggest getting her to set up a standing order for future payments for the basic amount. Any extras could be paid seperately.


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## scheherazade (10 September 2013)

Den83 said:



			Hi sorry my dates were not correct, her 1st invoice was due 28th August, I paid the cheque in the day I received it. I have advised her that the cheque bounced and she is due to transfer the funds from her building society account to a current account and then transfer to us. My husband thinks this is delaying tactics and that we should call her back and tell her we need the cash ASAP!
		
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Ah, my apologies. Was just trying to see it from every possible angle and be as fair as possible IYSWIM. In that case it might be worth trying to find out from a previous yard if she is a generally reliable person. Hope it all works out for you, bank transfers are pretty much instant, so if you haven't got the money by the end of the week I would hand her her notice


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## Wagtail (10 September 2013)

I would give her notice now but insist that if she wants to stay the whole month she has to pay up front, otherwise she has to be off the yard within one week.

ETA: this may seem harsh, but IME if people start off this badly, it only gets worse. You don't want that sort on your yard. No respect or manners, let alone not paying.


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## SadKen (10 September 2013)

You're all kinder than me, I'd give notice immediately before the livery charges started mounting up further.  There's every likelihood you will need to chase for payment most of the time, and if finances are a problem, things may start disappearing. To quote Homer Simpson 'if something's hard to do, it's not worth doing'.


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## Shysmum (10 September 2013)

I would also give her a week's notice right away. If she's prepared to take the **** now, god only knows what she'll be like in a few months time - and you do not need the hassle. get rid !


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## Tnavas (10 September 2013)

I'd be giving this one notice pronto. Switching off the phone, arriving early and bouncing cheques are all signs of avoiding paying.

I would also be asking for payment in cash - no other way.

If she pays up then I suggest that this one is billed weekly and any contract you currently have made null and void, and a new one made.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (10 September 2013)

SadKen said:



			You're all kinder than me, I'd give notice immediately before the livery charges started mounting up further.  There's every likelihood you will need to chase for payment most of the time, and if finances are a problem, things may start disappearing. To quote Homer Simpson 'if something's hard to do, it's not worth doing'.
		
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I agree! 

I don't know whether there's other liveries on your yard, but if so, one rotten egg in the barrel means that others might think they can get away with not paying either; and you're not running a charitable institution are you. 

Um, what is in her livery contract re. payment & defaulting thereof??? 

Personally I'd give notice to this one. Even if she pays now, you'll very likely have problems with her again in the future sometime, plus if a vet or farrier attends her horse you'll have a helluva job getting any money out of her for that, OR her horse will be the one with awful feet and needing vet. attention but the owner won't call the vet coz they can't afford it.

Get rid! You don't need the hassle. There are other liveries out there who won't' take the Pee and will pay on time and be nice people on the yard. You could, if you wished, send her a letter by recorded delivery saying that basically she's in arrears for her livery (set it out concisely so there's no doubt) and that this amount is overdue NOW, and you require payment forthwith or you will consider legal action to recover your debt, and that from such-and-such a date, you are giving her notice that she, her horse, and any personal effects are required to be off the yard and if not so removed can be used to offse the debt. Simples. 

Think this one is taking you as a soft touch TBH. 

The words "kick, @rse, the, road, up" spring to mind.


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## Lizzie66 (10 September 2013)

Giver her the benefit of the doubt. 

Why not tell her that you feel she hasn't got off on the best foot but that it would probably best if she paid in cash in the short term and that it must be upfront.
Tell her that if she does have an issue then she needs to talk to you asap as lack of communication is a bug bear of yours (whether it is or not) and that you prefer things upfront and open so that you both know what is happening. Also that if she is late again without talking to you then you will have no option but to ask her to leave.


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## nosenseofdirection (10 September 2013)

Speaking as a livery myself, if my cheque bounced (this has never happened, touch wood), I would be mortified and would phone YO to apologise and turn up with cash the next day. As this livery hasn't done that, they either have no money or no respect for you (possibly both) and either way, you don't want them on your yard.

This sort of thing often causes a bad atmosphere on yards. I would give notice.  If they apologise and pay up, you can always let them stay, but would need to be cash up front from now on.


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## Goldenstar (10 September 2013)

Den83 said:



			Hi sorry my dates were not correct, her 1st invoice was due 28th August, I paid the cheque in the day I received it. I have advised her that the cheque bounced and she is due to transfer the funds from her building society account to a current account and then transfer to us. My husband thinks this is delaying tactics and that we should call her back and tell her we need the cash ASAP!
		
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I am with your OH ,why did she not get you a BS cheque which can't bounce .


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## Inthemud (10 September 2013)

It is possible that the bouncing cheque is a one off due to poor financial management.
It is possible that she has been hard to contact by phone for some good reason.
It is possible that she has altered her hours of attendance for a reasonable and innocent reason.

The chances of all 3 happening at the same time, but her being ultimately reliable are probably the same as that of hell freezing over.

Give notice or expect similar hassle every month!


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## kinnygirl1 (10 September 2013)

Am not a YO but from your other liveries POV I would give her notice. A YO I know recently admitted to someone that she is owed over £4k in unpaid livery from a few individuals. The school at the yard desperately needs resurfacing but she can't afford to do it whilst owed money, so the paying liveries are suffering for those who owe money. Not fair!


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## honetpot (10 September 2013)

I think there are a lot of people out there who get  away with not paying because of people good nature, I would give her notice and because she hasn't paid at the start of her contract if she had one it wouldn't be a month.If she like this now goodness knows what she will be like in winter and just the worry of is it or not going to be paid every month would drive me up the wall. I would get them to pay by standing order so you don't get the costs if  a cheque bounces


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## Den83 (12 September 2013)

Update on the situation - I received a text from the lady in question Sunday asking for us to sort the pony out as her car had broken down (she is on assisted DIY so men part livery for the day) I advised no problem. There was no mention of money etc, I then received a call from her on Monday asking the same thing, again no apology/mention of late payment. In all fairness I was a little relieved as it broke the ice. Then Tuesday I see the cheque she gave bounced! I called her straight away on Tuesday & she advised she would transfer money from building society to her current account, I gave her our bank details so she could transfer the money. Well surprise surprise no sign of the money yet, also as her car is still 'broken' we have been dealing with the pony all week!!! I am writing a letter giving her notice to be out by 28th sept which is her next due date & advising we will take her to small claims court if not paid!!! I can't believe some people, she didn't even text too it asking me to sort the pony out she just took it for granted that he would be dealt with! I'm now wondering if I have an abandoned pony on my hands!


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## sarahann1 (12 September 2013)

How annoying for you! Hope you get it all sorted out ASAP. I once missed a weeks payment (I pay my livery weekly by SO) I was mortified and went down with cash as soon as I realised. Don't understand those who don't pay, why have a horse if you can't afford it?!


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## Pinkvboots (12 September 2013)

She sounds like a nightmare tell her how much she owes you and say you want it before next saturday before she leaves. She would not be leaving until she paid me.


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## WelshD (12 September 2013)

personally I would give her one or more of these three choices

Pay all the money owed plus the next month's livery then from then on she should pay before the subsequent months are up so that you have the money before each month's livery starts (maybe a week before the others pay) or even pay weekly

Dont pay anything and leave this weekend (cut your losses)

Pay up the money owed and leave at the end of the month

I dont see why you are honouring her 'due date' by letting her stay till then - her current 'due date' is 28th August!


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## Mike007 (12 September 2013)

By not keeping to the terms of her contract ,(failure to pay,) She has rendered it nul and void. You are entitled to throw her out immediately. Cut your losses and chuck her out . If the cheque was returned ,refer to drawer ,on its first presentation,this means that her bank has no realistic expectation of her honouring it.


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## glamourpuss (12 September 2013)

It doesn't sound promising. I'm confused as to what she has tried to achieve....surely she didn't think that if she wrote a rubber cheque you would just 'forget' about it & not bother her for livery. Some people are weird.


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## FestiveFuzz (12 September 2013)

Speaking as a livery that very recently moved my new horse to a new yard I would have been mortified if my 1st payment to the YO had bounced and would have not only been super apologetic but would have also been on your doorstep with cash pronto. 

Our YO is lovely and very relaxed about payments but as I'm new I ensured she sent me an invoice for this month ahead of time as I knew I would be on my honeymoon when our next payment was due and wanted to make sure the correct amount was still paid on time. 

If this livery doesn't have the common decency to apologise for the bounced cheque and pay you immediately I'd hand her her notice.


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## Venevidivici (13 September 2013)

If anything of hers (other than the pony!) is kept at yours(?tack?),I would keep it (in your house?) as security for the final payment of monies owed to date. 
Otherwise,I fear it sounds like she will probably just leave and you may well never see any payment for the services given & facilities used since she arrived
Can't believe there's some still prepared to give her a chance. (Perhaps they've never been YOs/YMs!) Even if she paid up tomorrow,I wouldn't want her-she sounds a right royal pain in the ass and frankly,there's just not enough profit (what's profit?Ha ha!) in livery to warrant all the messing about you've had already. You shouldn't ever have to chase the money,especially not (as others have said) when she's only just arrived!
Good luck-hope she goes (or has a complete character transplant!) and you get someone more straightforward and conscientious in!


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## exracehorse (13 September 2013)

glamourpuss said:



			It doesn't sound promising. I'm confused as to what she has tried to achieve....surely she didn't think that if she wrote a rubber cheque you would just 'forget' about it & not bother her for livery. Some people are weird.
		
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This brings back so many memories of two years ago. My YO took on 4 ponies/horses from a lady on full livery. The promised monies never arrived in the YO's bank account. Bounced cheques as well. Text's not answered. Always an excuse, buy at work, bank has screwed up the transfers, will def have money next week, etc etc. Well the months went on and my YO was pulling her hair out. We done some digging and found out that she was a con artist, basically would put her ponies and horses (and she had quite a few) in different liveries, and never paid. Eventually, the horses were kicked off but in the meantime, they had been looked after and fed etc.  It took 9 months before my YO had closure, she took one pony in part payment, the others were picked up by a transporter (probably to go to another livery). It all got rather nasty. So, the moral to the story is this - give her notice NOW - and get her off the yard. After seeing what happened to my YO and how distressing it became, I would never take a chance like that again. There are better liveries out there. Just remember, winter is approaching, and if she is up to no good, like our livery was, you shall have to find the feed and bedding etc. Also, was told that if you take on the horse on part or full livery, you have to by law still feed and care for it, as otherwise you will be prosecuted. You could technically have the pony in your care for a long time, if the owner started to mess you about financially wise.


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## lachlanandmarcus (13 September 2013)

Mike007 said:



			By not keeping to the terms of her contract ,(failure to pay,) She has rendered it nul and void. You are entitled to throw her out immediately. Cut your losses and chuck her out . If the cheque was returned ,refer to drawer ,on its first presentation,this means that her bank has no realistic expectation of her honouring it.
		
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Cheques used to be returned with either 'refer to drawer please represent ' (you might get your money as funds expected) or ' refer to drawer' (no chance and we won't let you represent it).

My understanding is that this has changed and that all returned cheques are now refer to drawer. I stand to be corrected tho...might have imagined what I read!

So altho I would say get rid now straight away no ifs or buts, the RD is now just the standard reply on a returned cheque.


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## glamourpuss (13 September 2013)

It does amaze me that there is always a story of a non payer on every livery yard.
I was on a yard where it happened. Other liveries had concerns that this girl couldn't afford her horse: Farrier was infrequent, she constantly 'ran out' of feed/hay/straw, never had teeth/jabs done. There was also a spate of stealing.
Then she stopped coming up to the yard. The horse was out 24/7 & other liveries were checking it. The YO contacted her & she claimed that her car was broken but a friend was looking after the horse. She then stopped answering the phone/texts.
Over 3 months with no payment of livery or contact & YO took legal advice which said to send an abandonment notice by signed for delivery claiming that after 28 days the horse would be seized by way of payment.
On the very last day of the notice a 'horse transporter'turned up claiming that the girl had had the horse on loan & he was returning it to its owners.
YO wasn't happy about letting the horse go without payment but felt it the best interest of the horse she should let it go.

Turned out the 'transporter' was actually a friend of the girl & was actually just taking it to another livery yard for her.

Luckily they left some tack & rugs which the YO sold to recoup some costs but she was left £100's if not £1000's out of pocket!


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## Capriole (13 September 2013)

I agree Glamourpuss. I was on a large comp yard years ago, there was an owner (and a horde of assorted hangers on) with a large amount of horses. They got the best stable block, the best grazing, dibs on the use of the facilities, YO/YM bent over backwards for them...best of everything at the expense of the rest of us one/two horse owners.

They left suddenly (did a flit) and it turns out they hadn't been paying and owed thousands.  I have to say, the YO/YM in this case got no sympathy at all from any of the second-class-but-actually-paying liveries 


Op, I'd want her off asap, no more chances, she's taking the pss.


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## madlady (13 September 2013)

I'm not condoning what this livery is doing and I personally have never done this - I have however been in situations where money has been extremely tight so I'm just going to play devils advocate here.

If she is having genuine money troubles then she may be embarrased/feeling guilty and a lot of people react to money issues by burying their heads in the sand because of this (speaking from experience there!).

I'd try contacting her (in writing if need be) and say that you understand that sometimes unexpected costs can crop up that we haven't budgeted for but you really need her livery bringing up to date asap and can she please let you know when that will be - if she is having genuine money issues then that sort of approach may just be enough for her to be honest with you.  If she is a genuine pee taker then it won't make a blind bit of difference and she needs to go pronto.

In the meantime I would be digging around to see if she has a history of this.


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## smellsofhorse (13 September 2013)

I give her one more chance.
Get payment owed and see if she pays the next months on time.
If not give her notice to leave but be prepared to not get paid at all or hold tack until she pays.

We all have trouble sometimes and need a little help and understanding, but you are a business so don't be taken for a mug!


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## gina2201 (13 September 2013)

She owed money since 28th July? It's now September....I would be setting a date in writing to say full payment owed to date to include all arrears and maybe even  request to pay 2 weeks/1 month up front so if non payment in future at least you have a month in advance.

I don't know about what contracts you have if you have one. I know one yard i was at stated that in the event of non payment after so many days/weeks/month then the horse liverying automatically was held as payment!


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## Den83 (16 September 2013)

Hi everyone,

Thank you so much for all your comments, I really am pulling my hair out!! I had a text from the lady in question on Friday advising she would be getting her car back today so could we sort the pny out, she also said the money would be in our account today and guess what - no money!!! I text her back Friday asking her if she meant she needed us to look after the pony and didn't receive a reply!! 

She is definitely going to be given notice to leave ASAP, should I call her or just send a letter by recorded delivery? Also, she never returnend her signed contract despite reminders!!


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## WelshD (16 September 2013)

text her saying that her notice to leave will be sent in the post today and send the letter recorded delivery

Normally I'm not one for texting instead of actually speaking to people but that seems to be her preferred method of communicating so I would send a text. You dont sound like you would be too terribly confident making that call so that would work for you too!

Personally I would only give her till the end of the week (or include the weekend if you are super generous) to leave, you have let her have long enough without paying. If you are able to withold tack or rugs in lieu of payment I would do that


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## Patterdale (16 September 2013)

I don't understand why she hasn't been given notice yet!? 
She's taking advantage and probably laughing at you big time OP. Notice by recorded delivery and email, threat of small claims if not paid. 

She's stealing from you by taking your services and wilfully not paying. Don't stand for it - get her out!


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## Den83 (16 September 2013)

I bet she wont even come down today to sort the pony out and I probably wont have a text from her. I did wonder whether to text her to just say the money hasn't arrive and then send a recorded delivery letter telling her to leave ASAP.


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## WelshD (16 September 2013)

I would include that you are asking her to leave in your text, that way if she takes it in the least bit casually it will be re-inforced by the letter

Also dont ask her to leave asap as her asap pretty obviously wont be your asap! give a date - 48 hours if you are feeling really cheesed off, the weekend if you are feeling generous etc..


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## Capriole (16 September 2013)

I think you need to get a bit tougher with her. Text her, ring her, send her a letter, don't be worrying about her feelings and whether you are bothering her or whatever it is that's stopping you contacting her. Make a nuisance of yourself. And if she asks you to do the pony say no, sorry, come and do it yourself. Because you probably aren't going to get paid for it anyway so let her make other arrangements.
Kick her off asap, she's started as trouble she's not going to get any better, is she.


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## Costypop (16 September 2013)

Bug her all the time, if she's not off by the weekend, write messages on her Facebook/twitter saying she's a non payer and has left the pony, don't take no for an answer and give her a date and time to be gone by. Chase her though the courts for the unpaid bill and will no doubt she will not empty the stable or poo pick so add that to the bill as well.


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## Costypop (16 September 2013)

Costypop said:



			Bug her all the time, if she's not off by the weekend, write messages on her Facebook/twitter saying she's a non payer and has left the pony, don't take no for an answer and give her a date and time to be gone by. Chase her though the courts for the unpaid bill and will no doubt she will not empty the stable or poo pick so add that to the bill as well.
		
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Find out her parents address, her work address and turn up there, just be a massive pain for her.


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## pip6 (16 September 2013)

There's always one in an area. Dumps horses with some money, rest promised & never arrives. These liveries never pay up, often steal & cause huge amounts of stress (to YO & through often not well cared for animals as avoiding YO & wont buy basics). Get rid ASAP, if you have friends who are YO pre-warn them as they will no doubt be out looking for another victim to scam.

It's the horse equivalent of squatting, they pay a bit to get access then the rest never appears. If you can't bring yourself to chuck them out, then say cash only by a set time on a set date (no excuses will be tolerated - car broken get a taxi), always a month paid in advance, never in arrears. The first time they fail to pay they have to be out in 24 hours & will not be given a months notice as they haven't paid the month up front.


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## Wagtail (16 September 2013)

pip6 said:



			There's always one in an area. Dumps horses with some money, rest promised & never arrives. These liveries never pay up, often steal & cause huge amounts of stress (to YO & through often not well cared for animals as avoiding YO & wont buy basics). Get rid ASAP, if you have friends who are YO pre-warn them as they will no doubt be out looking for another victim to scam.

It's the horse equivalent of squatting, they pay a bit to get access then the rest never appears. If you can't bring yourself to chuck them out, then say cash only by a set time on a set date (no excuses will be tolerated - car broken get a taxi), always a month paid in advance, never in arrears. The first time they fail to pay they have to be out in 24 hours & will not be given a months notice as they haven't paid the month up front.
		
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I completely agree with this. we had one turn up here. I got a bad feeling about her and so said I only took on liveries once I had a standing order from them set up and the first payment had gone through. By her reaction (she suddenly didn't seem too keen to come any more), I realised my hunch was correct. a couple of months later I was talking to a livery owner friend who was telling me about a livery they had taken on who never paid them a penny, and they were struggling to get rid of. turned out to be the same person. They had also found out that she had been doing the rounds in the area for a couple of years, going from yard to yard and effectively having free livery!

OP, the fact that she has not even signed the contract tells you that she never intended paying. I would just phone or text and tell them to get off the yard right away. Have they left any tack or rugs? If so, I would tell them you will be holding onto it until they pay you what they owe you.


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## Costypop (16 September 2013)

Just a thought I would let your other liveries know that she is being kicked off and too keep tabs on their belongings, you don't want things going walk abouts


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## Den83 (16 September 2013)

I have taken the decision to send her a letter to her home & work address special delivery asking for the money immediately in Cash and that she leave the yard by Saturday. I thought a letter best as its more official, also she never answers her mobile and calling her at work I dont want to get done for harassment which would be my luck!


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## Den83 (16 September 2013)

This is the letter I am going to send, comments/suggestions most welcome:

It has now been nearly three weeks since your livery was due and after numerous reminders and a bounced cheque we have yet to receive the £220 you owe us. Your text to me on Friday 13th September also confirmed that the amount would be in our account today (16th September) and it has not arrived!

Unfortunately, you have left us with no option and it with great regret that we ask you to leave the yard by Saturday 21st September. 

We require the outstanding amount of £220 to be paid immediately in cash. This month&#8217;s expenses and an additional £80 for the eight days that we were looking after Mojo is to be paid in Cash and in full on leaving the yard. Failure to do so will leave us no alternative but to pursue the money through the small claims court. This is a last resort and we hope we can resolve the matter without taking this course of action.

This is not a profit making venture for us and we cannot afford any late payments otherwise we are subsidising your ponies costs ourselves.

We look forward to receiving full payment from you ASAP.


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## Wagtail (16 September 2013)

Den83 said:



			This is the letter I am going to send, comments/suggestions most welcome:].
		
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I would be a little more forthright:

I hereby give you notice to leave the yard by Saturday 21st September.

It has now been nearly three weeks since your livery was due and after numerous reminders and a bounced cheque we have yet to receive the £220 you owe us. Your text to me on Friday 13th September also confirmed that the amount would be in our account today (16th September) and it has not arrived. Remove exclamation mark

We require the outstanding amount of £220 to be paid immediately in cash. This month&#8217;s expenses and an additional £80 for the eight days that we were looking after Mojo is to be paid in Cash and in full on leaving the yard. Failure to do so will leave us no alternative but to pursue the money through the small claims court. This is a last resort and we hope we can resolve the matter without taking this course of action.

This is not a profit making venture for us and we cannot afford any late payments otherwise we are subsidising your ponies costs ourselves. (I would remove this. You owe her no explanation and I doubt she would care anyway)

We look forward to receiving full payment from you without further delay.


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## WelshD (16 September 2013)

I agree with Wagtail to remove the ASAP at the end. if this ends up in court you will only get told that ASAP could be interpreted as when the lady can pay without hardship which may be a long way off!


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## hairycob (16 September 2013)

It might be worth looking at changing locks etc so she has to speak to you when she leaves. Otherwise you may find she moves out (without paying of course) when she knows you are not around.


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## dunkley (16 September 2013)

I would itemise every aspect of the outstanding monies, so there is no ambiguity whatsoever.

Wagtail is right on the removal of your explanation.  Your yard, you don't have to justify anything.  Particularly to someone who owes you money.

Best of British luck.


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## rema (16 September 2013)

Sorry but i get the feeling she is just going to flit without paying a penny..I would be tempted to withhold a saddle or something of similar value until she drops the cash into your hand..May not be legal but tough..


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## Den83 (16 September 2013)

Thank you for your suggestions, will be interesting to see if she appears tonight to sort the pony out as we have not seen her and have been looking after the pony since a week ago sunday as her car had broken down apparently! Not sure how much of that to beleive! We might arrive later to find she has done a bunk!! We could paddlock th gate to the ponies field and also change all the other paddlock codes?!


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## martlin (16 September 2013)

To be honest, in your place, I would be relieved if she legged it, lol. Don't stop her taking the pony, it's no good as lien as it will cost you to keep, by all means withhold tack and rugs, though.
From experience, it will be nigh on impossible to get money out of her, so be prepared to just write it off, whilst obviously chasing her for it.
I'm sorry it has happened to you, unfortunately, there are plenty of those liveries doing rounds of yards with a sob story to tell, we have all been taken in at some point or another. I try to keep in touch with other YOs in the area, hoping that at least we can give each other a bit of warning. Comparing the sob stories can serve as a bit of entertainment, too.


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## rema (16 September 2013)

Good point Martlin..They do a Pub Watch maybe there should be a Livery Watch..lol


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## Capriole (16 September 2013)

martlin said:



			To be honest, in your place, I would be relieved if she legged it, lol. Don't stop her taking the pony, it's no good as lien as it will cost you to keep, by all means withhold tack and rugs, though..
		
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Seconded.

Keep the tack locked up, also as safety for the rest of your liveries' belongings (not saying your livery would take anything that's not hers as I don't know her, but I've seen the way this goes down on other yards and I'd say take no chances).
The pony will only cost you if you keep it there, and be an extra responsibility to care for, so the sooner that's gone the better.
Stop being so nice and apologetic, OP, it's the livery that needs to apologise for messing you about, not the other way around.


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## armchair_rider (16 September 2013)

If you haven't sent the letter already I would alter it as follows



Wagtail said:



			I would be a little more forthright:

I hereby give you notice to remove your horse from my property by 23:59 on Friday 20th September.

It has now been nearly three weeks since your livery was due and, after numerous reminders and a bounced cheque, we have yet to receive the £220 you owe us. Your text to me on Friday 13th September confirmed that the money would  be received in our account today (16th September) and it has not arrived. Remove exclamation mark

We require the outstanding sum of £220 to be paid immediately in cash. We also require this month&#8217;s expenses, and an additional £80 for the eight days that we were looking after Mojo, to be paid in cash and in full on leaving the yard*. Failure to do so will leave us no alternative but to pursue the money through the small claims court. This is a last resort and we hope we can resolve the matter without taking this course of action.

This is not a profit making venture for us and we cannot afford any late payments otherwise we are subsidising your ponies costs ourselves. (I would remove this. You owe her no explanation and I doubt she would care anyway)

We look forward to receiving full payment from you without further delay.

Yours sincerely



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* I'm not sure if you are referring to additional expenses of £80 or if you want more than £80 in which case you should specify how much you want in total.

I haven't stated that tack etc should be removed in case you wish to hold it hostage against non-payment


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## Fuzzypuff (16 September 2013)

Also I have known in my area when this has happened the YM has rung around all yards in the area to let them know so that they don't end up in the same situation - might be worth doing the same, and is a good way to initiate a relationship with them so you can all look out for each other in this respect - and with any other issues such as local break-ins etc.


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## Den83 (16 September 2013)

Hi I haven't worked out the expenses so have added in the letter after that sentence (to be confirmed). I wont have chance to work this amount out until I get to the yard tonight and I want to send the letter today via recorded delivery.


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## s4sugar (16 September 2013)

Add, after the £80, and any other costs incurred.


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## Den83 (16 September 2013)

Well the letter is going off special delivery now to her home & work address, wait for the angry call tomorrow Lol!


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## Den83 (16 September 2013)

Thank you everyone for all your help, suggestions and advice!


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## armchair_rider (16 September 2013)

Best of luck with it.


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## Wagtail (16 September 2013)

Let us know how you get on.


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## Bigbenji (16 September 2013)

I do know of a chap who had trouble with a livery who sounds exactly like yours. He decided that rather than spend his time and money paying for the horse whilst also paying solicitors to write letters telling her to leave/recoup money owed etc, he loaded up the horse and drove it to her house. unloaded the poor horse in the street and put it in her front garden and rang her doorbell ! &#128556;  
Have to say I was left open mouthed when he told me but he said he'd been stung a few time before and had to get tough and had warned her he would do it. Bet she never expected to see ned at her front door tho &#128563; 

Not how I would handle things and not suggesting how you should op eeek! 

Hope things get resolved for you.


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## Den83 (16 September 2013)

Typical hubby just pointed out her next due date is 28th September so the £220 she owes is for this months rent if we ask her to move out this sat then we will owe her 1 week livery! Nightmare!


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## martlin (16 September 2013)

Den83 said:



			Typical hubby just pointed out her next due date is 28th September so the £220 she owes is for this months rent if we ask her to move out this sat then we will owe her 1 week livery! Nightmare!
		
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Are you charging your liveries in arrears? You need to change that! Always, always charge in advance, then if things go pear shaped, you have half a chance of not being out of pocket.


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## Den83 (16 September 2013)

No we do charge in advance the £220 she owes is for her livery up until 28th September. If she leaves 21st sept that's a week early so surely we can't charge the full months livery? We would have to refund her a week?


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## Capriole (16 September 2013)

what about all the assisted care she's been asking for?


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## Den83 (16 September 2013)

She owes us for  9 days so far as well as hay & bedding used to date!


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## millikins (16 September 2013)

Hi, I don't think I'd worry too much. If she does pay up, then you can give her back that extra week, really, you just want shot of her. By the way, I don't understand why you'd put yourself through the hassle of having other people and their animals on your property if you aren't trying to make a profit, whatever's in it for you?


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## Capriole (16 September 2013)

Den83 said:



			She owes us for  9 days so far as well as hay & bedding used to date!
		
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Dont be worrying about a weeks livery then, surely the bill for extras comes to more than that?


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## Honey08 (16 September 2013)

They just sound like a load of hassle, even if they do pay this week.  Do you really want this every month!


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## Daytona (16 September 2013)

I'd not tolerate people paying me late if I owned a livery yard, at the end of the day they get their wages on time and you need yours, I think far to many people have horses who can't actually afford them. A horse is a luxery , if you can't afford it dont have it.  Get a flipping gold fish.  

My yard makes you pay in advance , which I think is correct, no payment on time - I would show them the door.


There is no excuse in my eyes.  If you got no money sell the horse.


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## millikins (16 September 2013)

The OP's letter requesting payment.

We require the outstanding amount of £220 to be paid immediately in cash. This months expenses and an additional £80 for the eight days that we were looking after Mojo is to be paid in Cash and in full on leaving the yard. Failure to do so will leave us no alternative but to pursue the money through the small claims court. This is a last resort and we hope we can resolve the matter without taking this course of action.

This is not a profit making venture for us and we cannot afford any late payments otherwise we are subsidising your ponies costs ourselves.

We look forward to receiving full payment from you ASAP.[/QUOTE]


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## martlin (16 September 2013)

Den83 said:



			No we do charge in advance the £220 she owes is for her livery up until 28th September. If she leaves 21st sept that's a week early so surely we can't charge the full months livery? We would have to refund her a week?
		
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Ah, sorry, I got the wrong end of the stick there 
You can take off the weeks livery when she pays you all the rest - that would mean never 
If I give a livery a months notice, as per their contract, I still expect them to pay the bill for that month, they can leave at any time in that period and I would not refund them, though.


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## Tnavas (16 September 2013)

Does she keep tack at your place? If so, hold it under lock and key until you are paid. You are allowed to seize assets up to the value of the money owed. 

Not good to seize horse as you have to maintain it!


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## smellsofhorse (17 September 2013)

Im looking forward to the response you get once she has recieved the letter!


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## Den83 (17 September 2013)

Hi everyone, well I still have not heard a thing and no sign of her last night to sort the poor pony out!

The letter sent to her home address has been taken back to the depot as they could not get access to the property!! The letter going to her work address is out for delivery now! I bet I wont get a call or anything!


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## Wagtail (17 September 2013)

She sounds like a right card. Poor pony having an owner like her.


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## Freddie19 (17 September 2013)

Wagtail said:



			She sounds like a right card. Poor pony having an owner like her.
		
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Just what I was thinking, having and still doing accounts for a livery yard, you all would be so surprised (or maybe not) about how many people either do not pay bills, or pay very slowly. I may be wrong but if you decide to keep pony in payment of bill  You need to get a legal notice known as a "lien"  Good luck, and I am sure the legal experts on here will correct me if wrong.


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## Den83 (17 September 2013)

My husband popped to her previous yard an apparently it took them 6 months to get the money out of her and she was paying them considerably less than we charge!! Its not looking good so far!


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## pip6 (17 September 2013)

As she isn't coming to yard, & not now asking you to care for pony, you might have to consider reporting it as abandoned. If rent not paid & pony shifted by deadline in letter definately have to do so.


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## twiggy2 (17 September 2013)

I would seek legal advice about how you proceed.

Ie how much notice you need to give regards to having pony sent to sales or selling private to recoup some of your losses.

lots of horses and ponies are being dumped on yards.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (17 September 2013)

OP I'm so sorry, this is so awful for you, and something we all dread happening if we're a YO. Everyone's worst nightmare. 

Ditto the legal advice route: have never used the BHS helpline but this may be your first point of call?

What you really need is a good solicitor with equine experience, which unfortunately won't come cheap (ouch!); but IF you're in the situation where she's "abandoned" the pony and you have to go the route of selling it to re-coup your losses, you'll very likely need to.

Do you know this woman's home address?? Because............ and I throw this out for consideration and you can chuck it out if you please...... but there ARE such things as Debt Collectors. I've no idea how much it costs to engage one and how one goes about it, but like I say am just throwing this in the pot!!! 

I'm also a landlord and a few years ago a tenant defaulted with a large bill; I wished we'd gone this route as basically they got away with owing us a considerable sum of money (hundreds). The solicitors were as useless as a nun in a punch-up and did FA but people have said since we should have got Debt Collectors to sort it. 

Good luck anyway. This is awful. What TF is wrong with people?


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## honetpot (17 September 2013)

If she is not visiting and ignoring your calls pin an abandonment notice up. http://www.redwings.org.uk/welfare-horse-care-advice-abandonment.php
 If you have served her notice you have started the legal process if she turns up so you have got her both ways. Unless you have a contract that includes the sale of the horse to cover any bills I would take her to the small claims court for any expenses you are accruing, the main thing is to be persistent and keep records/diary so if it goes to court you have account of what you have done and what it has cost you.
 I wouldn't be surprised if she is not laying low while she finds somewhere else to dump her horse and will come and collect it when you least expect it. I had one of these last year and its not very nice.


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## glamourpuss (17 September 2013)

The use of a debt collecting agency is actually not a bad one. Often they will send a very stern & official letter. This letter is very clear & spells out future implication on credit scores/impact on future lending if the debt is not dealt with. An agency will often do this for a fraction of the cost of solicitors etc. 
my only experience of a bad debtor paid up within 24 hours of receiving a debt collecting letter!


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## Tnavas (18 September 2013)

glamourpuss said:



			The use of a debt collecting agency is actually not a bad one. Often they will send a very stern & official letter. This letter is very clear & spells out future implication on credit scores/impact on future lending if the debt is not dealt with. An agency will often do this for a fraction of the cost of solicitors etc. 
my only experience of a bad debtor paid up within 24 hours of receiving a debt collecting letter!
		
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This works well, one lodger I had snuck off without paying bills he owed, I sent a text advising that unless paid by Friday I would be sending the amount owing to debt collection.... He paid up like a shot, I also knew he was planning to buy a house and if he had a history with debt collectors would affect his getting a mortgage.


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## Bigbenji (20 September 2013)

Any update op? :/


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## Costypop (20 September 2013)

Hope she's taken the pony and gone


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## skint1 (20 September 2013)

Me too, people like that are a worry for everyone.
Had one at our yard for a while, such a straight up liar, used to say she "rode" every day at 5am, I believed her at first but after a while it was clear that it wasn't true, we started to just rug/unrug with our horses. He was losing weight so I fed him with my horses, cared for him when he was injured, he was a lovely horse, I worry about what happened to him having such a selfish, weak, lazy liar in charge of him


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## pip6 (20 September 2013)

Hope you've managed to sort things out okay.


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## miss_c (22 September 2013)

Any updates OP?


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## Den83 (24 September 2013)

Hi Everyone

the latest on the situation is that the original letters were both delivered as confirmed by Royal Mail special delivery track & trace on 17th September, by Friday last week I had still not had a reply so I called her at work and she claimed not to have received the letters! I am currently waiting for Royal Mail to upload the signatures so I can catch her out! I advised that the letter basically said we still have not had her money and that we want her to leave the yard by Sat 28th Sept, to this she replied ' OK no problem'! I asked what has been going on and she claims her car is still brocken, I told her each day we look after him she is acruing extra charges to which she responded 'you are still doing that' I told her we need the money ASAP and I need to know when she will be collecting the pony. At the end of the call she had the cheek to say she is not happy with how we have behaved!
By yesterday I had still not had a call and called her at work but she was not in so I sent another letter and statement detailing charges to date, again sent special delivery. Royal Mail have confirmed today it has been delivered!

I called her today at work and again she denies ever receiving any of our letters.  Apparently she is going to come and collect the pony on saturday and transfer the money so its in our account by then! I told her if we dont have the money the pony wont be going anywhere. Apparently she is going to the yard tonight and Thursday to muck out and get his stable all ready and as all our gates are now paddlocked and tack room combination changed, even the pony is locked in his field I told her she would have to hope over the gate if she needs to get in. Amazingly she gave me her work email so I have emailed her copies of all our letters and an up to date statement detailing charges for the remainder of the week. We have told her we will only accept Cash! I told her she needs to call me to let me know when she will be over on Saturday as we need to be there to release him and she laughed, very weird behaviour! 

Will let you all know what happens next, and im not holding my breath that she appears tonight!


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## Rudolph's Red Nose (24 September 2013)

I was wondering how you had got on,   

Good luck and hope it all goes well and you get your money though sadly wouldn't be surprised though if you wake up one morning and padlocks are cut and pony gone !!


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## Woody2013 (24 September 2013)

What a nightmare! hope you get your cash. 

However, feeling for the poor horse for having her as an owner. I can only assume, she hops from yard to yard trying to pull the same scam. 

Chin up and stick to your guns


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (24 September 2013)

Yeah, just adding to your Support Club basically. 

What a nightmare livery........ and lying little b!tch to boot. But lets hope she DOES take her pony and goes when she's supposed to; plus coughs up the cash. 

Poor pony, can't help feeling sorry for it with such a useless owner; bet its a real darling too and deserves better.


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## Cherrydan (24 September 2013)

Sorry to hear your plight, god it's sounds stressful! I feel sorry for the pony. Most of us have tight times financially, I've seen me counting coins for food, but my livery had never been a day late. Priorities: horse comes first, I chose to be responsible for a horse, and that is what I will be. I hope you get your money and I hope you tell/warn other livery yards. Maybe then, she will have to sell, and maybe the poor pony will have a steady consistent home and not having to move into new yards/herds. X


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## Fransurrey (24 September 2013)

Just make sure you have a few people around on Sat, OP. I wouldn't trust someone like that not to turn up with some 'mates' and get threatening.


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## Angus' yard (24 September 2013)

OP would you mind posting a rough geographical area of where you are ( only north, south if you prefer) so that those who take liveries on this forum can be on the lookout for this person if they appear as I presume she will be looking for another yard now?


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## Queenbee (24 September 2013)

Deleted


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## Den83 (24 September 2013)

You will be amazed to hear she turned up tonight to much him out! She confirmed receipt if my email but apparently couldn't open the attachments despite them being standard word documents! She then went in to say we have an incorrect home address for her, hmmm funny she mentioned that as she claims not to have revived the letters & couldn't open the emailed versions so how dies she know I have the wrong address!!!  I was going to ask if she wanted to get the pony in & would have unlocked the gate for her but she just my led out then went! Apparently she's bringing cash on Saturday so we shall see. 

We are based in surrey on West Sussex boarders so other yard owners please beware! I wouldn't wish all the hassle & stress on anyone!


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## Queenbee (24 September 2013)

I would print out everything you sent to her via email and post, list it on a separate piece of paper with room for her to sign for it, when she arrives tomorrow hand over the documents and ask her to sign for receipt, I'd also voice record the conversation.  On Saturday I would lock up saddle, rugs, basically all tack and goods other than the horse, and refuse her access to them until the goods are paid for, if she doesn't turn up I'd make steps to take a lien on the horse, its a bit of a process but I'd personally do it if she pushes it further than Saturday.


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## SatansLittleHelper (24 September 2013)

This^^^
What a nightmare for you. I just dont understand why some people have animals, let alone horses!!!


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## Den83 (27 September 2013)

Well tomorrow is D Day. I wonder if she will turn up to collect the pony and if she will have the money??!! Im not holding out on anything at all!


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## martlin (27 September 2013)

Fingers crossed for you, OP. Has she shown her face in the meantime?


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## babymare (27 September 2013)

Heres another with fingers crossed for you OP


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## weebarney (27 September 2013)

good luck with getting your money! We had a field rented to some people on team GB and they were a nightmare for looking after their horses and paying their debts. I had to threaten to inform their sponsors and start small claims action before they paid up. The field rent was only £25 a week!!!!! Dont back down!


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## Den83 (27 September 2013)

She came and mucked him out on Wednesday evening and is meant to be doing the same today, she is also meant to be letting me know what time she is coming tomorrow! 

Im surprised at team GB I would have thought they would be the last people you would expect that behaviour from!


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## Blurr (27 September 2013)

Have you warned the other liveries what's happening?  You don't want them giving her access without your permisson if she turns up unexpectedly.


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## sport horse (27 September 2013)

There are loads of people on Team GB in all the different disciplines.  If an eventer fails to pay their livery it is not BE fault and it does not mean that all eventers are bad payers.

Likewise if someone who has, at some stage of their life, ridden for Team GB   runs up debts it is NOT the fault of Team GB.  Team GB does not pay livery bills for anyone they are merely the body that selects and organises teams to represent the country.  Team GB does not own any horses so as a body they cannot be liable for any livery or any responsibilty for the standard of care except when the horses are actually away competing for the team at an Official competition.

Please do not run down our National Squad - they do us proud.


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## Cherrydan (27 September 2013)

I don't think the op was running down our team, it's just that you would expect them to be on top of things, especially something like livery. I find that they werent quite shocking, actually, I always thought the horses would be very pampered, the thought that they giv so much and don't even have thei r rent paid on time pretty grim. What is up with people who aren't respponsible? I will never give a livery, not becaueof the chasing brass, just because I couldn't be amicable with sonmeone who treat their horse like that. (sorry for editing, phone app wont let me delete the wrongs).


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (27 September 2013)

Any news on the situation OP???


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## weebarney (27 September 2013)

sport horse said:



			There are loads of people on Team GB in all the different disciplines.  If an eventer fails to pay their livery it is not BE fault and it does not mean that all eventers are bad payers.

Likewise if someone who has, at some stage of their life, ridden for Team GB   runs up debts it is NOT the fault of Team GB.  Team GB does not pay livery bills for anyone they are merely the body that selects and organises teams to represent the country.  Team GB does not own any horses so as a body they cannot be liable for any livery or any responsibilty for the standard of care except when the horses are actually away competing for the team at an Official competition.

Please do not run down our National Squad - they do us proud.
		
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Who slated team GB? I merely was pointing out that my problems with a non paying livery was someone on a team GB. You never can tell who is going to cause trouble. Incidentally a good payer we had on once was a gypsy.


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## weebarney (27 September 2013)

Cherrydan said:



			I don't think the op was running down our team, it's just that you would expect them to be on top of things, especially something like livery. I find that they werent quite shocking, actually, I always thought the horses would be very pampered, the thought that they giv so much and don't even have thei r rent paid on time pretty grim. What is up with people who aren't respponsible? I will never give a livery, not becaueof the chasing brass, just because I couldn't be amicable with sonmeone who treat their horse like that. (sorry for editing, phone app wont let me delete the wrongs).
		
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The horses on our field werent team horses. Just old or useless ones that they had no interest in. They ended up exchanging one for a hay debt with a local farmer. We had so many problems with them, rspca out all the time, horses breaking fences due to hunger, never paying rent.


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## Fransurrey (28 September 2013)

Op, you are very close to me. If you don't mind, could you pm me a name, doesn't have to be the whole name, as we often get people looking here and at my last yard. My last yard manager is just the type to fall for a poor little chucked out livery and I know she's advertising a space.


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## Bigbenji (28 September 2013)

Hope it all goes ok today op &#128556;


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## Den83 (28 September 2013)

Hi everyone you will be pleased to know she came down last night with the full amount in cash & has been to collect him this morning as I passed he coming down the lane in a horse box! 

We are so relived she has gone it's been so stressful the last few weeks. At lady we can relax & enjoy going down the yard.

Thank you to everyone for all you advice & comments.


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## WelshD (28 September 2013)

Good news! Was she even sorry?


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (28 September 2013)

Den83 said:



			Hi everyone you will be pleased to know she came down last night with the full amount in cash & has been to collect him this morning as I passed he coming down the lane in a horse box! 

We are so relived she has gone it's been so stressful the last few weeks. At lady we can relax & enjoy going down the yard.

Thank you to everyone for all you advice & comments.
		
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FANTASTIC OP. Good news indeed and a huge relief for you I bet.

Now you can hopefully put this all behind you....... and sit down and have a stiff drink (so will we all I am sure).

Meanwhile the Bad Egg is already no doubt settling into someone else's yard - and they don't suspect a thing - and she'll do the same thing there, coz this type always do; and its probably not just her horse's livery its very likely she's owing money to all and sundry too. A thoroughly bad lot and you're well rid. 

Might even raise a glass to you as well this lunchtime! Well done, this has been a real P!sser for you, and now you've seen the back of her.


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## armchair_rider (28 September 2013)

Whew, glad everything seems to have worked out for you


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## Bigbenji (28 September 2013)

Well thank goodness for that! 
I also wonder what poor persons now got the pleasure of them &#128556;


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## Den83 (28 September 2013)

Will definitely be celebrating that's for sure. She didn't say sorry at all & was even a bit arsey last night. Didn't see her to speak to this morning thank god!


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## Bigbenji (28 September 2013)

It always amazes me that these sort of people never seem to think they had done anything wrong or behaved badly.


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## smellsofhorse (28 September 2013)

So glad for you she's gone and paid!

The fact that she paid in full and didn't dispute it or say sorry, means she knows she was in the wrong, and isn't a nice person!


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## DW Team (28 September 2013)

Den83 glad for you that she has moved on but feel for any new YO that has to face her. Fingers crossed that she has moved a long way away. Hope you were able to tip off all YO&#8217;s in your area.


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## Rudolph's Red Nose (28 September 2013)

yay, am glad you got all your outstanding bill settled and pony has now gone and hopefully owner may have learnt lesson (or not..)


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