# Female jockeys



## Orangehorse (9 April 2021)

Sad to hear of a serious accident to Lorna Brooke yesterday at Taunton, taken off in the air ambulance.  Haven't heard any updates yet.  She is an experienced jockey with quite a few wins.

Marcus Armitage wrote an article in the Telegraph not long ago, really as a result of Rachel Blackmore's success, but he also noted what a long road it has been.  Worse was the list of seriously injured and even killed female jockeys, I hadn't realised that there have been so many.

I know other jockeys occasionally get killed and seriously injured, but when you think of the % of women, the statistics don't look very good.

I was musing to myself whether there are more women riding as trainers are more willing to put them up do to improvements in safety equipment.  There are male trainers who aren't necessarily "sexist" about not having women riding in races (after all there are enough female stable staff who ride the horses every day) - but actually from an old fashioned concern for their safety.


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## Clodagh (9 April 2021)

Well if the women choose the hard road it isn’t chivalry to stop them, but plain sexism.
In MAs column he said a lot of it was because the women were riding a higher proportion of bad horses as they couldn’t get rides on the good ones.
Trainers will always put up the jockey who will get them the best result, or at least the result they want. Imo.


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## Clodagh (9 April 2021)

Lorna Brooke is in ICU in Bristol. I hope she makes a full recovery.


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## Wishfilly (10 April 2021)

I think to be willing to make it as a female jockey, you have to take rides on whatever comes your way, and that may increase your risks.

The risks of injury and death to any jockey are quite high compared to other careers- but they are adults and choose their career knowing the risks. All of the pro-eventers I can think of who have recently had serious/life changing injuries are men. Should we stop men from being eventers?

It's obviously sexism to say that female jockeys shouldn't race because of the risks. 

I'm not sure if you have actual stats on the % of male and female jockeys who get injured, but I would guess that when female jockeys get injured it's more newsworthy?

Thinking of Lorna Brooke, and wishing her a speedy recovery, though.


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## Orangehorse (11 April 2021)

No I haven't got statistics, it was only the newspaper article.  I was shocked.  Considering the numbers involved it seems to be more risky for female jockeys than male jockeys.


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## ycbm (11 April 2021)

Orangehorse said:



			No I haven't got statistics, it was only the newspaper article.  I was shocked.  Considering the numbers involved it seems to be more risky for female jockeys than male jockeys.
		
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I don't think it is, I think they just get given bad horses to ride to try and get a foot in a very male orientated game.  

4*  eventing isn't more dangerous for women than men,  there's no reason why racing should be.


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## Rowreach (11 April 2021)

Most jockeys starting out get the dodgy rides.


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## ycbm (11 April 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Most jockeys starting out get the dodgy rides.
		
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But it's a numbers game.  What proportion of female jockeys are riding lower ability horses and what proportion of male jockeys are?   Until the two are equal,  then more women will get hurt. 

I find it crazy,  given how many women event at international level,  to suggest that females riding race horses are more at risk because of their sex.


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## Orangehorse (11 April 2021)

An event rider is riding their own horse they have trained and know well.

I'm not saying that women shouldn't be jockeys, just that it appears to be more dangerous for them.


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## ycbm (11 April 2021)

Orangehorse said:



			An event rider is riding their own horse they have trained and know well.

I'm not saying that women shouldn't be jockeys, just that it appears to be more dangerous for them.
		
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I'd want to see the analysis of ability of horses being ridden and class of races being ridden in before I could believe that. 

It sounds to me like the arguments that were/are  put up to stop women flying fighter jets or driving formula 1 to me.


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## DabDab (11 April 2021)

Orangehorse said:



			No I haven't got statistics, it was only the newspaper article.  I was shocked.  Considering the numbers involved it seems to be more risky for female jockeys than male jockeys.
		
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The newspaper article must have quoted statistics to back up the statement?

I suppose if trainers were truly in the business of concern over jockey safety then they wouldn't be offering rides to anyone.


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## Orangehorse (11 April 2021)

DabDab said:



			The newspaper article must have quoted statistics to back up the statement?

I suppose if trainers were truly in the business of concern over jockey safety then they wouldn't be offering rides to anyone.
		
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No it didn't offer any statistics, it was a list of people killed and badly injured since female jockeys started out.
And it was written by Marcus Armitage, whose sister Gaye was famously one of the first female jockeys.  He didn't make any comments.


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## Rowreach (11 April 2021)

ycbm said:



			But it's a numbers game.  What proportion of female jockeys are riding lower ability horses and what proportion of make jockeys are?   Until the two are equal,  then more women will get hurt.

I find it crazy,  given how many women event at international level,  to suggest that females riding race horses are more at risk because of their sex.
		
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Im a big supporter of female jockeys but from my days point to pointing and working in racing it is a fact that not many women can physically withstand the huge requirements of professional race riding and, more importantly, falls.

I think I was the first lot of p2p jockeys that were required to take part in training (which included falling) with the great Stan Mellor. I won a prize that year for being the best female faller offer because I could tuck and roll and not go splat.

Younger jockeys get the crap rides. Statistically it follows that fewer of those fewer women will be tough enough to overcome that.

Which makes the success of the current crop of women even more remarkable and shows that they are actually top top jockeys whatever their gender.


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## bonny (11 April 2021)

This is the argument that some men in racing having been using for years, I’m a bit surprised that a group of women on here are suggesting it’s right just after a woman has won the Grand National. If you really want to go down that path then a better comparison between the sexes would be found in point to pointing where the numbers of men and women jockeys would be much more equal.


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## Orangehorse (11 April 2021)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/racing/...-price-laying-groundwork-trailblazer-rachael/


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## DabDab (11 April 2021)

Orangehorse said:



			No it didn't offer any statistics, it was a list of people killed and badly injured since female jockeys started out.
And it was written by Marcus Armitage, whose sister Gaye was famously one of the first female jockeys.  He didn't make any comments.
		
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So it wasn't an article, just a list of injured/killed female jockeys?


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## ycbm (11 April 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Im a big supporter of female jockeys but from my days point to pointing and working in racing it is a fact that not many women can physically withstand the huge requirements of professional race riding and, more importantly, falls.

Younger jockeys get the crap rides. Statistically it follows that fewer of those fewer women will be tough enough to overcome that.
		
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But that isn't saying that a higher proportion of women get hurt than men.

I would completely accept the potential argument that more men are prepared (mad enough  ) to break bones and get back on and race again.


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## DabDab (11 April 2021)

Orangehorse said:



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/racing/...-price-laying-groundwork-trailblazer-rachael/

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Is this the article you are talking about?


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## Rowreach (11 April 2021)

ycbm said:



			But that isn't saying that a higher proportion of women get hurt than men.

I would completely accept the potential argument that more men are prepared (mad enough  ) to break bones and get back on and race again.
		
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Well quite, I think many women have more sense.

But yes it is true that women jockeys tend to have worse fall outcomes than men because of the way they fall, but not I do t think that they have more falls as such.


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## Orangehorse (11 April 2021)

I don't know why everyone is getting so uptight.  I was simply shocked to see the numbers, especially as there is a young lady in hospital right now with a bad injury.


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## DabDab (11 April 2021)

Not uptight I don't think (just normal discussion?) ...you keep saying that you were shocked by the numbers but then say there were no statistics so the questions are just people trying to clarify what you are saying. 

I'm pretty sure (from a conversation with a sports physio friend a while back), that stats show women are injured more often/suffer higher rates of certain injuries in all sports (caused by multiple factors eg more flexible joints, higher estrogen etc). 🤷 Such is life I guess 

I don't think that has any bearing on the rides offered by trainers to female jockeys

Statistics also show, in jump racing at least, that women are marginally more successful than men at the top level. The differences between male and female jockeys is potentially a very interesting subject now there is starting to be enough females knocking around in the sport for it to be statistically significant.


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## Spirit2021 (11 April 2021)

I don’t usually  comment on things like this but I find it kind of funny once a  first woman has won a big race than you see  the thread like this. I actually think a lot of people want to keep it as man oriented sport and use safety as a excuse to try a stop women in success  in this sport. To be truthful I think there a lot sexism in the horse world especially in professional side of it.


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## Frumpoon (11 April 2021)

Orangehorse said:



			I don't know why everyone is getting so uptight.  I was simply shocked to see the numbers, especially as there is a young lady in hospital right now with a bad injury.
		
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Round our way there’s fairly often a young(ish) lady in hospital, it’s usually me and I can tell you now, nobody gives a flying floof 😂😂


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## mypegasus (12 April 2021)

Having read the article, whilst yes it lists the female jockeys who were injured and ultimately paid a high price.  There is no comparison or list of those male jockeys who have been injured or killed.  So it’s difficult to compare - it is more an article that is personal opinion.

It would be interesting to do some statistical analysis but given the amount of data it would be an in depth study - would be intriguing though.


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 April 2021)

There is a lot of sexism still in racing. Times are changing but slowly. Rachael has got the age of 30/31 before really smashing the big time. Probably picking up better rides from 25/26 onwards and working her way up the ladder having had her licence since 17yo. Most males are hitting up the big time in jump racing at 24/25. Flat racing even younger. Women have to work ten times as hard to prove their worth still.

It also doesn't help that in yards girls are looked down on. Aren't given difficult horses to ride because they are "lads rides" and are generally never expected to do more than pat the pretty ponies and ride in the odd ptp. What also doesn't help is that the girls let this slide and don't prove their worth because they don't feel worthy. We had one lass (thank god she has left! She drove everyone insane!) Who constantly complained about not getting rides, not getting opportunities etc because she wasn't male. In our yard that wasn't actually true. She just simply wasn't good enough and her gob spoke far louder than her riding so you were instantly put off of giving her any sort of chance because of her attitude.

Time are changing because of the like of Rachael Blackmore, Nina Carberry, Katie Walsh, Holly Doyle, Nicola Curry etc. They are good riders who are down to earth and get the job done. Bryony Frost is setting that campaign back. I know the public like her banging on about her special pegasus and her pet pony etc. But in racing we quite simply see that as annoying and childish. Something a 12yo would say who had just won their first jump off. Not a professional jockey.


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## tristar (12 April 2021)

Orangehorse said:



			I don't know why everyone is getting so uptight.  I was simply shocked to see the numbers, especially as there is a young lady in hospital right now with a bad injury.
		
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well i am pretty fit, and not exactly weak, but, i spend most of my time around men, and am in awe of how strong they are, so not commenting on whether or not its a good idea for women to be jockeys, but there can be a serious difference

also an eventer is doing dressage on the same horses they ride regularly and not travelling at 100 mph   hopefully!


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## Clodagh (12 April 2021)

Women should on the whole have some advantages over men as jockeys. It is probably easier for a woman to maintain a body weight at or under 10 stone without dehydration or serious starving. The risks of concussion have been highlighted as being worse when dehydrated as your brain loses some of its natural water padding.
Yes men are stronger but I don't feel that is an issue when on a horse, it isn't like you pick them up and carry them.


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## Clodagh (12 April 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Time are changing because of the like of Rachael Blackmore, Nina Carberry, Katie Walsh, Holly Doyle, Nicola Curry etc. They are good riders who are down to earth and get the job done. Bryony Frost is setting that campaign back. I know the public like her banging on about her special pegasus and her pet pony etc. But in racing we quite simply see that as annoying and childish. Something a 12yo would say who had just won their first jump off. Not a professional jockey.
		
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She is helping public perception though. The Ruby Walsh's of this world who never seemed to care remotely for the horse other than a means of transport to get him past the winning post used to be very negative to me. Off topic but he has improved immeasurably in retirement.


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## tristar (12 April 2021)

the element of strength to hold ones body in a certain way at a given moment,   was more what i had in mind, where in less rough horse sports,  more refined factors come into play


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## tristar (12 April 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			There is a lot of sexism still in racing. Times are changing but slowly. Rachael has got the age of 30/31 before really smashing the big time. Probably picking up better rides from 25/26 onwards and working her way up the ladder having had her licence since 17yo. Most males are hitting up the big time in jump racing at 24/25. Flat racing even younger. Women have to work ten times as hard to prove their worth still.

It also doesn't help that in yards girls are looked down on. Aren't given difficult horses to ride because they are "lads rides" and are generally never expected to do more than pat the pretty ponies and ride in the odd ptp. What also doesn't help is that the girls let this slide and don't prove their worth because they don't feel worthy. We had one lass (thank god she has left! She drove everyone insane!) Who constantly complained about not getting rides, not getting opportunities etc because she wasn't male. In our yard that wasn't actually true. She just simply wasn't good enough and her gob spoke far louder than her riding so you were instantly put off of giving her any sort of chance because of her attitude.

Time are changing because of the like of Rachael Blackmore, Nina Carberry, Katie Walsh, Holly Doyle, Nicola Curry etc. They are good riders who are down to earth and get the job done. Bryony Frost is setting that campaign back. I know the public like her banging on about her special pegasus and her pet pony etc. But in racing we quite simply see that as annoying and childish. Something a 12yo would say who had just won their first jump off. Not a professional jockey.
		
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it seems we live in a world where dreams count for nothing, and joy is a stranger, if its not professional, only time will tell as bryony`s story unfolds, and attitudes to multiple dead horses a  meeting  bring change, horrible realty at one end of the scale and joyous praise for the horse at the other


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## RachelFerd (12 April 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Time are changing because of the like of Rachael Blackmore, Nina Carberry, Katie Walsh, Holly Doyle, Nicola Curry etc. They are good riders who are down to earth and get the job done. Bryony Frost is setting that campaign back. I know the public like her banging on about her special pegasus and her pet pony etc. But in racing we quite simply see that as annoying and childish. Something a 12yo would say who had just won their first jump off. Not a professional jockey.
		
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And that's why the racing industry is stuffed - because those that work in it can't seem to see that BF's public persona is a huge boost for the sport's image. That stoic, stiff up lip thing 'horses are livestock' attitude does not land well in modern Britain - like it or not. 

As for making statistical judgements on the fragility of women - there's no point doing this on the back of a fag packet. To understand if injury rates really are higher/more serious you'd need to work through the quality of horses they were riding, their previous history for URs or falling and also consider the comparative fitness element of the number of rides that the jockey is regularly getting.

Total credit to RB though - I have a huge amount of admiration for what she has achieved and think she's done it all in a very classy way.


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## Wishfilly (12 April 2021)

Orangehorse said:



			An event rider is riding their own horse they have trained and know well.

I'm not saying that women shouldn't be jockeys, just that it appears to be more dangerous for them.
		
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I don't think that's true of all event riders at all- many don't own their horses. There are many pro eventers who ride sales horses as part of their business, maybe not at the highest level but at levels where serious injury can still occur. Obviously it is a different relationship between the person and the horse, and a different sport. 

And we're getting "uptight" because you are being sexist. 

FWIW, I reckon the female jockeys who go into it are the ones who are tough enough to stick it out. I think to be a female jockey you still have to _really _want it- not that male jockeys don't, but I reckon female jockeys face more people saying they can't do it, or that a female rider isn't as good etc etc. So perhaps they are willing to take more risks than some of the men, or less likely to give up when the going gets tough. 

But without % statistics, a list of injuries to female jockeys is meaningless. I'm sure a similarly shocking one could be produced for male jockeys or male professional riders in general.


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## Wishfilly (12 April 2021)

Clodagh said:



			Women should on the whole have some advantages over men as jockeys. It is probably easier for a woman to maintain a body weight at or under 10 stone without dehydration or serious starving. The risks of concussion have been highlighted as being worse when dehydrated as your brain loses some of its natural water padding.
Yes men are stronger but I don't feel that is an issue when on a horse, it isn't like you pick them up and carry them.
		
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Logically, this makes sense, but if it were true, we'd see more female jockeys in flat racing surely?


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## Elf On A Shelf (12 April 2021)

Wishfilly said:



			Logically, this makes sense, but if it were true, we'd see more female jockeys in flat racing surely?
		
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There's actually far, far more females flat racing than jumps racing.


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## Wishfilly (12 April 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			There's actually far, far more females flat racing than jumps racing.
		
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Not at the top of the sport, though?


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## Chianti (12 April 2021)

Clodagh said:



			She is helping public perception though. The Ruby Walsh's of this world who never seemed to care remotely for the horse other than a means of transport to get him past the winning post used to be very negative to me. Off topic but he has improved immeasurably in retirement.
		
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I remember watching an interview with Ruby Walsh when Kauto Star hadn't won a Cheltenham Gold Cup. He was obviously very pissed off with the horse. This was despite Kauto having won it at least once before ( can't remember the year) and a few King George's with him. The horse had tried his heart out but just wasn't good enough on the day. I think that's when I began to go off racing.


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## TPO (12 April 2021)

No experience of racing but I'd guess it's like other male dominated industries where female have to work 10x as hard for half the credit.

If what Elf has said is true, and is presume that it is in the majority of yards, then it takes a female approx twice as long as a male to be "given a chance" with good horses.

So if males have proven themselves from 16/17 then the good ones "hit the big time" approx 24/25. Meanwhile it can probably be assumed that RB showed promise/prove herself in that same timeframe but it took until 25/26 to be given good horses and 30/31 to hit the big time.

So roughly speaking using these ages as ball parks a female jockey will have a lot more years of wear and tear. Plus a male jockey could father 50 kids during his 20s and never miss a day of work but the same cant be said for females.

I am definitely not saying that all females want to have children but prime having children age is also prime proving yourself 10x more than a Male time too. So you can see why many arent able to consistently do what is required throughout their late teens and all of their 20s/early 30s.

If women were treated as equals from the start I bet youd see a lot more successful ones on the courses


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## RachelFerd (12 April 2021)

Wishfilly said:



			Not at the top of the sport, though?
		
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I suspect that the lack of females at the top of the sport has a lot to do with the views of major non-UK based owners on whether women can ride (or indeed drive cars etc. etc.)

Although Hollie Doyle was right up there in flat jockey rankings last year - 4th - so progress is happening on that side too.


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## Rowreach (13 April 2021)

TPO said:



			No experience of racing but I'd guess it's like other male dominated industries where female have to work 10x as hard for half the credit.

If what Elf has said is true, and is presume that it is in the majority of yards, then it takes a female approx twice as long as a male to be "given a chance" with good horses.

So if males have proven themselves from 16/17 then the good ones "hit the big time" approx 24/25. Meanwhile it can probably be assumed that RB showed promise/prove herself in that same timeframe but it took until 25/26 to be given good horses and 30/31 to hit the big time.

So roughly speaking using these ages as ball parks a female jockey will have a lot more years of wear and tear. Plus a male jockey could father 50 kids during his 20s and never miss a day of work but the same cant be said for females.

I am definitely not saying that all females want to have children but prime having children age is also prime proving yourself 10x more than a Male time too. So you can see why many arent able to consistently do what is required throughout their late teens and all of their 20s/early 30s.

If women were treated as equals from the start I bet youd see a lot more successful ones on the courses
		
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Interesting article from Ruby here, which addresses some of this. 

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opini...o0sZc5_OKfcssglOgCtGsnJRlGuvMwvqxs2XiPc13SslU


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## Gamebird (13 April 2021)

Three years ago, after Bridget Andrews won the County Hurdle, Dan Skelton said (in response to an interviewer calling Bridget a female jockey) "Isn't it time we just called them jockeys?". I'm with him.


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## Parrotperson (13 April 2021)

Clodagh said:



			She is helping public perception though. The Ruby Walsh's of this world who never seemed to care remotely for the horse other than a means of transport to get him past the winning post used to be very negative to me. Off topic but he has improved immeasurably in retirement.
		
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Agreed. Ruby Walsh was very unlikeable when he was riding. But is much better in retirement. I have no problem with Bryony she just wears her heart on her sleeve which isn't v British which is why she gets stick for it. And here's  the thing, criticising her for her attitude is just as sexist (because you're essentially saying she ought to be more male is her attitude!).

 I have to say AP has gone the other way. Liked him much more when he was riding. He hardly ever has anything nice to say about any jockey now and is positively nasty about the females, only grudgingly praising Rachel and he is downright nasty about Bryony. He is v obviously of the option it isn't a "girls" sport. It's practically branded on his forehead!

Anyway good luck to them all.


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## Parrotperson (13 April 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Interesting article from Ruby here, which addresses some of this.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opini...o0sZc5_OKfcssglOgCtGsnJRlGuvMwvqxs2XiPc13SslU

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well you see where he is saying exactly what owe shouldn't. That because she's female he didn't think shed be strong enough and he's surprised she is! For heaven sake!!!!  What is it with men? Ok I know what it is. Thousands of years of being 'better' than us, whilst we had to give birth and raise the kids. Except of course none of that was ever the truth. there is evidence that women played just a much a part of feeding the tribe (for want of a better term) thousands of years ago as the men. 

When oh when will they stop looking down on us. Drives me crazy. I think a hundred years ago I would've been a suffragette!!  And proud of it.


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## Rowreach (13 April 2021)

Parrotperson said:



			well you see where he is saying exactly what owe shouldn't. That because she's female he didn't think shed be strong enough and he's surprised she is! For heaven sake!!!!  What is it with men? Ok I know what it is. Thousands of years of being 'better' than us, whilst we had to give birth and raise the kids. Except of course none of that was ever the truth. there is evidence that women played just a much a part of feeding the tribe (for want of a better term) thousands of years ago as the men.

When oh when will they stop looking down on us. Drives me crazy. I think a hundred years ago I would've been a suffragette!!  And proud of it.
		
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I didn’t read it like that at all.


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## honetpot (13 April 2021)

I thought it was another professional's assessment of what it takes to be a jump jockey, if ever you have a couple of falls at speed the determination to get back on, and not let the muscle memory of that fall overwhelm you, must be huge. To wipe the mental slate clean, and get ready for next race, while at the same time giving yourself feedback of what could be improved is amazing.


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## Clodagh (13 April 2021)

Parrotperson said:



			well you see where he is saying exactly what owe shouldn't. That because she's female he didn't think shed be strong enough and he's surprised she is! For heaven sake!!!!  What is it with men? Ok I know what it is. Thousands of years of being 'better' than us, whilst we had to give birth and raise the kids. Except of course none of that was ever the truth. there is evidence that women played just a much a part of feeding the tribe (for want of a better term) thousands of years ago as the men.

When oh when will they stop looking down on us. Drives me crazy. I think a hundred years ago I would've been a suffragette!!  And proud of it.
		
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I actually didn't read his column as being negative. I really don't think he is sexist, his sister would kill him. I think it was applauding a top jockey...who btw is female.

As for the rest of your comments, I agree with you and I am becoming a bigger and bigger feminist as my life goes on.


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## Kadastorm (13 April 2021)

@Parrotperson i completely agree about AP. I was saying the same to my dad at the weekend, really dislike the bloke now and I used to be a huge fan.

I really like Bryony, the sport needs someone like her. She shows she cares for the horses she rides rather than just mounts to get from A to B.

Rachael reminds me of my southern Irish friend. Quiet, professional and talented. They are both different personalities but helping the sport massively and inspiring young riders.


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## Goldenstar (14 April 2021)

ycbm said:



			I'd want to see the analysis of ability of horses being ridden and class of races being ridden in before I could believe that.

It sounds to me like the arguments that were/are  put up to stop women flying fighter jets or driving formula 1 to me.
		
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On formula I it’s a sport that depends on huge neck strength the physical demands are insane woman will struggle to match men .


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## paddi22 (14 April 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			On formula I it’s a sport that depends on huge neck strength the physical demands are insane woman will struggle to match men .
		
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I think that's an old myth that has been disproven. Yes it takes a lot of training and neck strength but women are able to develop the strength. women fly fighter jets all the time and thats less stress than formula one. even the (fairly sexist at times) racing forums now seem to accept its a myth.


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## Bob notacob (14 April 2021)

OH Lord ,am I that old now. I can remember when the first 3 girls came to work in racing at Epsom . They came to our yard . Good riders and tough enough , soon simply blended into the pack . The trouble with the jumping game though is that up till recently it has been a male effort . And if you were in the game long enough you saw some pretty awful smashes to your friends or riders or even yourself. I put it to you HHO ladies that no decent man would not have reservations about putting a woman in harms way ,especialy if he has seen what "harms way" entails.. This has left a n unintentional bias against putting a girl up on the plate over fences.


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## Mule (14 April 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Well quite, I think many women have more sense.

But yes it is true that women jockeys tend to have worse fall outcomes than men because of the way they fall, but not I do t think that they have more falls as such.
		
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How do we fall and how do men fall?
Come to think of it, I'm sure the beast could tell you how I fall 😀


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## Mule (14 April 2021)

Clodagh said:



			She is helping public perception though. The Ruby Walsh's of this world who never seemed to care remotely for the horse other than a means of transport to get him past the winning post used to be very negative to me. Off topic but he has improved immeasurably in retirement.
		
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His mood has probably improved now he can eat more.


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## Bob notacob (14 April 2021)

The forces applied are going to be the same weight for weight . But men do have a higher muscle mass level so i am informed. This means that to be a successful jump jockey and meet the weights ,a male rider has to be short and squat . Mostly torso. Long legs and neck are just added weight. Darwinism and jump racing!! Anyone with long limbs and neck is going to  have a far higher chance of serious injury or death in a racing fall. I suspect that because it is easier for female jockeys to meet the weights , there is a higher number who are more at risk because of their shape . Nothing to do with gender , just physics.


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## Mule (14 April 2021)

Bob notacob said:



			The forces applied are going to be the same weight for weight . But men do have a higher muscle mass level so i am informed. This means that to be a successful jump jockey and meet the weights ,a male rider has to be short and squat . Mostly torso. Long legs and neck are just added weight. Darwinism and jump racing!! Anyone with long limbs and neck is going to  have a far higher chance of serious injury or death in a racing fall. I suspect that because it is easier for female jockeys to meet the weights , there is a higher number who are more at risk because of their shape . Nothing to do with gender , just physics.
		
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Interesting


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## Bob notacob (14 April 2021)

Mule said:



			Interesting
		
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Yes , its just speculation on my part,but as someone who has had the sh1t kicked out of them many times in falls , I owe my survival to my apparently rather unattractive shape. In the immortal words of one racecourse doctor ,"I,m sorry i didnt rush over more quickly but I thought you were dead"


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## Mule (15 April 2021)

Bob notacob said:



			Yes , its just speculation on my part,but as someone who has had the sh1t kicked out of them many times in falls , I owe my survival to my apparently rather unattractive shape. In the immortal words of one racecourse doctor ,"I,m sorry i didnt rush over more quickly but I thought you were dead"
		
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🤣


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## Rowreach (15 April 2021)

Mule said:



			How do we fall and how do men fall?
Come to think of it, I'm sure the beast could tell you how I fall 😀
		
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Slightly generalizing, but men tend to naturally tuck and roll, women tend to put their arms out and this results in broken limbs, shoulders, collar bones and a tendency to cartwheel rather than roll.

Falling techniques can obviously be taught - we had someone on here a few years ago who taught martial arts and iirc he did a clinic for HHOers.

In a lot of racing falls you are simply fired out of the plate, and the ability to fall well means you'll usually get up and walk away .... the problems come from horse falls, being landed on, trampled, kicked - in which case it makes no difference what gender you are.


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## Bob notacob (17 April 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Slightly generalizing, but men tend to naturally tuck and roll, women tend to put their arms out and this results in broken limbs, shoulders, collar bones and a tendency to cartwheel rather than roll.

Falling techniques can obviously be taught - we had someone on here a few years ago who taught martial arts and iirc he did a clinic for HHOers.

In a lot of racing falls you are simply fired out of the plate, and the ability to fall well means you'll usually get up and walk away .... the problems come from horse falls, being landed on, trampled, kicked - in which case it makes no difference what gender you are.
		
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 Got to disagree with the last paragraph . Muscle ,and bone density is what keeps you from flailing in a fall and yes , the good old tuck and roll . The best thing about a racing fall is that the forward speed makes you skip like a stone on a lake PROVIDING you can keep tucked and rolling ,and this comes down to brute strength. The energy of the fall is disipated over a much greater time than say ,an eventing fall . Its this rate of disipation that determines how serious things are.  I dont think that professional jockeys male or female put their arms out in a fall ,but believe me ,its bloody hard to keep them in while you are being "washing machined"


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## Rowreach (17 April 2021)

Bob notacob said:



			Got to disagree with the last paragraph . Muscle ,and bone density is what keeps you from flailing in a fall and yes , the good old tuck and roll . The best thing about a racing fall is that the forward speed makes you skip like a stone on a lake PROVIDING you can keep tucked and rolling ,and this comes down to brute strength. The energy of the fall is disipated over a much greater time than say ,an eventing fall . Its this rate of disipation that determines how serious things are.  I dont think that professional jockeys male or female put their arms out in a fall ,but believe me ,its bloody hard to keep them in while you are being "washing machined"
		
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I have a little plastic trophy somewhere in a drawer, given to me by my male p2p hockey friends for being the best girl faller offer - obviously they knew I would find this funny and not be hugely offended - so I have some experience, albeit several generations ago


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## paddi22 (17 April 2021)

there was an interesting theory about how men learn to roll as children during play fights/wrestling/more contact sports with friends as kids, whereas women have always been encouraged/less inclined to have less physical play. haven't a clue if it's true, but can kind of see the logic in it


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## teapot (19 April 2021)

Lorna Brooke died yesterday


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## Clodagh (19 April 2021)

teapot said:



			Lorna Brooke died yesterday 

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Such tragic news. My thoughts go to her family and friends.


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## bonny (19 April 2021)

teapot said:



			Lorna Brooke died yesterday 

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Just been reading about her death, awful news, she sounded such a strong woman x


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## TPO (19 April 2021)

So sad

Thoughts are with her friends and family


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## Parrotperson (19 April 2021)

Terribly sad about Lorna. And it won’t make the sports bulletin or the newspapers. Rest in peace. 😢


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## neddy man (19 April 2021)

Parrotperson said:



			Terribly sad about Lorna. And it won’t make the sports bulletin or the newspapers. Rest in peace. 😢
		
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It was in the Guardian the Daily Mail the Daily Express the Telegraph  and the Sun the Mirror and lots of evening and rural papers. And I'm sure it will have been in many more. It must have been extremely hard for her mum who she was riding for at the time of fall. God bless her may she rest in peace.


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## Bob notacob (19 April 2021)

So sad . Rest in peace girl.


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## ycbm (20 April 2021)

I hope she died without regaining consciousness, with her last memory being of doing something thrilling that she loved.  She's at peace now,  it's just awful for her family to lose her so young.
.


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## Annagain (20 April 2021)

It's terribly sad about Lorna Brooke. I don't follow racing particularly but this did make it onto the more mainstream channels. 



Elf On A Shelf said:



			Time are changing because of the like of Rachael Blackmore, Nina Carberry, Katie Walsh, Holly Doyle, Nicola Curry etc. They are good riders who are down to earth and get the job done. Bryony Frost is setting that campaign back. I know the public like her banging on about her special pegasus and her pet pony etc. But in racing we quite simply see that as annoying and childish. Something a 12yo would say who had just won their first jump off. Not a professional jockey.
		
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As I said I don't really follow racing but I think it's refreshing to see a jockey who clearly cares about her horses and gives them the credit for doing well. If that's a female thing then we need more women in racing. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a woman doing something a woman's way if it delivers the same results. To suggest that copying the men is the only way to do it does women, the horses and the sport a huge disservice. Nobody claims Pippa Funnell or Piggy March is unprofessional for clearly loving their horses, or even Michael Jung with Sam.

Over the years, we've had both men and women as senior managers in my organisation. Most of the women have a had a far more flexible, empathetic approach and the workplace is often much happier and productive for it. The absolute worst ones I've had have been women who have tried to out-man the men.


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