# Two horses die at Bramham



## Supertrooper (9 June 2012)

Very sad and thoughts go to all concerned. Both with suspected heart problems :-(


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## brushingboots (9 June 2012)

Lead the Way hit a jump very hard going into the second water I think? What i've heard is that he cracked his stifle/s - don't know whether this has been confirmed or not - just what i've heard through the rumour mill. I stand to be corrected however!


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## Supertrooper (9 June 2012)

It says on HH that it was suspected heart problems.


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## wizoz (9 June 2012)

brushingboots said:



			Lead the Way hit a jump very hard going into the second water I think? What i've heard is that he cracked his stifle/s - don't know whether this has been confirmed or not - just what i've heard through the rumour mill. I stand to be corrected however!
		
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Quoted from Eventing Magazine on Facebook.
Very sadly Clea Phillipps' Lead The Way and Michael Jackson's Jagganath both fatally collapsed today at Bramham.


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## wizoz (9 June 2012)

Eventing magazine FEI Veterinary Delegate David Green said something medically went wrong with both horses and postmortems are likely to be carried out.


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## Carefreegirl (9 June 2012)

That's so sad and awful for all involved, must be heart breaking


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## PorkChop (9 June 2012)

This is so, so sad - is it just me, or do there seem to have been a lot of horse injuries/fatalities this year


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## silu (9 June 2012)

I just DON'T understand, yes it's all very sad and for heaven's sake something OBVIOUSLY went medically wrong with both horses, breaking a leg is surely "medically" wrong too?
I am seriously struggling to understand the difference between these totally regrettable deaths at a FEI eventing competition and those that occur in racing and particular The Grand National when all hell breaks loose about how cruel it is, yet I'd be very surprised if the death of the same number of horses at Bramham as in the 2012 GN even merits a mention in the national press. Don't let 's kid ourselves these horses would not have died when they did if they hadn't been asked to compete at a high level. No doubt the statisticians would argue there were more horses in this CCI 3* than in the GN, true, but not many in the 3* actually were anywhere near the time and horses running in The GN don't have the luxury of a "good " dressage or hope to make up places in the SJ phase. "He who is without sin" is ringing in my ears, hopefully someone will be able to explain the difference to me. FACT remains 2 horses are dead due to competing at high level eventing


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## Custard Cream (9 June 2012)

*Yawn*


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## Supertrooper (9 June 2012)

silu - my horse died of a heart attack just walking down the road!!!


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## brushingboots (9 June 2012)

silu - one of my close friends lost her horse this week on a hack. The matter of fact is, it can happen any time.

Eventing and the GN just don't compare to each other. Two completely different sports.


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## teapot (9 June 2012)

Silu - is a horse suffers a heart attack over a fence, gravity, speed and weight is going to make it fall, most likely hitting the fence in the process so a broken leg could well happen.

Just sad that ANOTHER thread descends into 'is eventing cruel?' 

One HHO member sadly lost their horse yesterday due to a kick in the field...


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## ladyt25 (9 June 2012)

I was there today and went to watch the XC again in the afternoon but there was a long hold on course and this was when Clea Phillips had fallen. I assumed it was just a 'normal' fall but from the sounds of this thread, evidently not. I think it happened at a failr inocuous (spl?) fence too (13 or 14?). So sad, the weather and ground there was perfect for XC today. I hear the other horse collapsed after completing the course - not sure if that's correct, got that from another thread in NL.

There was a heck of a lot of horses competing there today though so, to be honest, in the world of horses I guess the stats are that something may get injured. They still have the CIC XC to run tomorrow as well. I think Bramham have done a fantastic job with the course and getting things sorted at relatively short notice due to Badminton and Chatsworth being cancelled and, from the sounds of it these two horse deaths were nothing to do with the actual course or fences.

Just very very sad


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## lynds81 (9 June 2012)

It's heartbreaking for all of those involved, my condolences go to all the connections of two hugely talented horses. My thoughts especially are with Carole, who owned and bred Jagganath, as I can only imagine how upset she must be right now.

Silu, this isn't the time or the place to preach about the GN. I imagine you are mostly preaching to the converted, but suggest that your case might carry more weight if you didn't hi-jack threads that were (I presume) designed to offer support to those who have lost their beloved horses today.


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## Puppy (9 June 2012)

Absolutely tragic   I feel so sad for their connections.


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## FabioandFreddy (9 June 2012)

Very sad.  

Unfortunately most horse sport carries a risk to both horse and rider, some more than others. Personally i like the races, the horses are bred and trained for it. I'm not anti racing despite some fatalities. Equally i'm not anti eventing. It all carries a risk. We too lost our horse 3 weeks ago to an apparently minor wound sustained in the field. Unfortunately field injuries are far more likely to result in serious injury than ridden work. 

My heart goes out to those who lost horses today, no matter the reason its never easy to have to deal with.


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## ladyt25 (9 June 2012)

I don't really understand Silu - do you have horses? What do you do with them? How is what you do less dangerous than these eventers today? If you just hack your horse on the roads you put it in danger. If you travel a horse in trailer/wagon you are putting it at risk surely? I just don't get the point of your post - do you not enjoy ANY horses sports or events? If yes then surely you have to realise that accidents do happen or, as it seems in this case (possibly), horses can just die without there being any prior warning whether thsi be when they're galloping and jumping or when just ambling in a field.

I think these horses are fantastic and I love watching them go round these courses and I don't believe for one second they don't enjoy it. They are NOT racing in a herd like in the GN - it is them and their rider, that is all. It is about trust - we all know horses are more than capable of letting us know when they don't want to do something!!

My biggest fear is going to a competition and not coming back with my horse but I enjoy competing and, it would seem, so does my horse so i shall continue and i am sure those that also love competing will continue to do so!


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## georgiegirl (9 June 2012)

Im another who can testify the ground at bramham today was absolutely fantastic.

So so sad to learn about the fatalities (we didnt know whilst we were there) but unfortunately it can happen anywhere and at anytime. A friend of mine was walking her horse along the road two years ago and he collapsed and died 

I have to say I was most impressed with the fitness levels of the horses we saw today. None looked wobbly or very tired towards the end of the course and bar one horse leaving a leg and taking a ducking at the water everything we saw jumped beautifully.

I think the organisers of bramham should be applauded for a wonderful course and great going.

My thoughts go out to all those involved with the lost horses today. Coming home with an empty box doesnt even bear thinking about.


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## Suzie G (9 June 2012)

Horses looked fit and well, althought a few of the riders were puffing a bit
Condolences go to those connected with the lost horses.


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## flipthelid (9 June 2012)

RIP Leader, one of the most fantastic, talented horses I have ever had the pleasure of working with. My deepest sympathies go out to Vere and Clea xxx


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## silu (9 June 2012)

Obviously people didn't get/want to get the point I was trying to get across. I am pro racing  evented to 2* level and show jumped at around Foxhunter AND dearly love both my retired, (both injured, but not life threatening) horses.
It is the double standards that stick in my throat, racing people are seen as just in it for the money and don't care if they loose horses while it's "so sad" when an eventer/showjumper etc dies in the process of doing it's job. I certainly was NOT hijacking this thread and I'm still waiting for somebody to explain why there is a difference in people's attitude to death on the race track to that in other horse discipline's.
I have sympathy to all those connected with the 2 horses that died at Bramham today and remember only too well what a wonderful horse Lead the Way was having seen him win the advanced at Auchinleck a few years ago.


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## Batgirl (9 June 2012)

silu said:



			I'm still waiting for somebody to explain why there is a difference in people's attitude to death on the race track to that in other horse discipline's.
		
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This is exactly what hijacking a thread is about, wanting an answer to your question, start a new thread.  Then I would post an answer, IMHO this is a thread for sympathy not debate.


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## Doris68 (9 June 2012)

Sympathies to all those connected with these wonderful horses.  I know what it's like to lose an event horse.  So sorry...RIP.


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## Oldenburg27 (9 June 2012)

How terribly sad 

I loved Lead the way he was a fave of mine 

Sympathies to all those connected with these brilliant horses!!


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## Roasted Chestnuts (10 June 2012)

Sleep tight and run free Horses. Thought with all concerned its a sad day when you lose your friend and partner in crime. Gods bless all invoved with these lovely equines xx

Horses can have heartattacks or break legs in the field, out a hack, in the school, doing dressage, jumping XC/SJ/HT, out hunting, doing games, Racing, driving, horseballing, playing polo do i really need to continue??? I mean I could go onto the Western pursuits as well if you wish??

Horse riding in general has its risks and I for one see no difference in competing or just happy hacking. Shame on those who see cruelty in everything, we all do the best for our horses whether they are much loved pets or winning competitons horses at the top of their game, someone loves them


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## Shantara (10 June 2012)

Silu, one of the horses I used to ride (Blobby) died of a heart attack just standing in his field, things like that happen 

ETA: For the record, I am equally as sad when any horse meets it's end. Whether it be on the track, jumping, in the field or on the roads etc and I always feel so very sorry for those who knew the horse.

R.I.P Horsies, thoughts are with everyone who was involved with them.


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## mrussell (10 June 2012)

Batgirl said:



			This is exactly what hijacking a thread is about, wanting an answer to your question, start a new thread.  Then I would post an answer, IMHO this is a thread for sympathy not debate.
		
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^^^^^ This^^^^^^.  

My thoughts are with both teams. ='0(


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## ArcticFox (10 June 2012)

So sad, and I can imagine how heartbroken all of the people currently feel.  

Deepest sympathies to all.


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## dollymix (10 June 2012)

Clea's horse has his accident at the coffin fence. I had just taken a photo of her galloping past, towards the fence which was just in front of me. Her horse jumped in bravely and then there was an almighty bang and we could see him down. On the landing dude of the ditch, with his legs pointing up the incline do he could get up. I will never forget how brave poor clea was as she jumped into the ditch to try and hold her poor horse's head up. 

Bramham did a WONDERFUL  job in horrific circumstances. Barriers were up around the injured horse in minutes. However... Shame on the horrible people who were trying to take photos and one disgusting woman who was trying to take a video on her mobile phone!!!! I am a photographer, and am have a press pass for bramham but I walked away in tears thinking of the last galloping **** I'd just taken of horse and rider looking fit and happy,

The going at bramham has been awesome! The XC looks immaculate even after the full CCI and under 25s classes.

Unfortunately accidents will happen. I don't know what happened to clea's horse (though suspect he must have broken something in the fall) and I heard on the grapevine that Michael jacksons horse collapsed from a heart issue back at tent at the end of a course. Eventing is a fabulous sport but it has it's risks. I still love it though.

My heart goes out to the two tides who will still be devastated at the loss of their horses. And of course, to the horses themselves. May they enjoy a horsey heaven galloping and jumping to their hearts' content


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## dollymix (10 June 2012)

Please excuse horrible spelling in that last post.. Stupid iPhone!!!!


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## sally87 (10 June 2012)

Dolly mix- amateur photographer with an iPhone here. Know how you felt I had pic of that horse jumping a fence (11 I think). To then walk round corner to see it in ditch (although couldn't see horse but could guess where it was from position of screens) was a shock. Apparently he had a heart attack over the first part which caused him to fall. At least it was over very quickly for him, and he won't have known anything about it. Also shocked at the people trying to get round the barriers for pictures.


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## Thistle (10 June 2012)

It always horrifies me how people crowd round to gawp. I always walk away.

Dollymix, please send your pic to Clea, I'm sure she would appreciate it. I would.


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## Alfami (10 June 2012)

How incredibly sad.  My thoughts and condolences to all concerned with both horses.  Lead the Way was one of my faves......

I can't believe that people want to see/photograph/film accidents like this.  Is was at Burghley last year when Ollie T turned upside down at the dairymound (grey horse with a very foreign name that I'm not going to try to spell!).  I walked away feeling sick, people were actually running to see what had happened.  I cannot describe what I think of those people.  An accident like Clea had yesterday results in private grief - the gawping public doesn't help.


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## dollymix (10 June 2012)

I had thought I'd print it and send it to her in a sealed envelope with a letter telling what it is. She can then chose to see it if she wishes


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## Thistle (10 June 2012)

dollymix said:



			I had thought I'd print it and send it to her in a sealed envelope with a letter telling what it is. She can then chose to see it if she wishes
		
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That's very thoughtful. If it was my horse I would like to see him looking happy and not stressed seconds before.


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## measles (10 June 2012)

That is a lovely thought dolly mix and I'm sure will be hugely appreciated at such a desperately sad time.


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## gillianfleming (10 June 2012)

What a lovely thought dollymix :-(

How sad for all involved with both horses


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## Santa_Claus (10 June 2012)

A lovely thought Dollymix which I'm sure clea will appreciate. I can't believe people taking vids/ pics once it was obvious what was going on. Last year at badders I got a 'cracking' although very scary shot of camilla spier's mid fall but I didn't show it to anyone until I knew for certain both were unharmed as I didn't feel it was right to do otherwise. 

Rip to two very talented horses who both thankfully went quickly doing what they loved. My thoughts are with their owners riders and all get connections


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## TBB (10 June 2012)

Old saying, "when you have livestock , you'll have dead stock" . sorry for all concerned that they lost their horses in such circumstances. It must be dreadful to lose one, when you think of all the one to one work put in to get them to that standard, that you are so close to. Unfortunately these things happen and as others have said, your horse doesn't have to be competing at top level for it to happen. I lost a two year old filly a few months back, she was cantering around a loose barn with five of her friends and she dropped dead. She spent last summer galloping around big fields with fifteen others and nothing happened her, you just never know with horses. Didn't postmortum her, vet said it happened so quickly and with no struggle that it had be a major burst of something connected with the heart and a pm would only cost money and wouldn't prevent it happening to another horse.


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## teapot (10 June 2012)

Well Silu you're wrong - it's made the national press: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-18385500

ETS: Dollymix - that's a lovely idea


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## oldywoldy (10 June 2012)

Thoughts are very much with Carol who bred Jack (Jagganath) he was her horse of a lifetime and I cant believe what has happened.  Also to Clea and Vere it sounds like they were both heart related but will have post mortems.


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## teapot (10 June 2012)

And because I can't edit - sadly I saw that BBC link due to their scrolling news headline on the home page


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## Maesfen (10 June 2012)

Very sad for all connections, I feel for them.

FWIW, I agree with Silu, double standards indeed.  Sympathies and understanding in this thread as it should be; nothing but condemnation on racing threads which is not fair to those concerned.  
Where's the difference; both types of breeder, owners, trainers and riders plus grooms have lost horses, surely that should bind us all together not rip into people because of being different aspects of equine sport?


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## vineyridge (10 June 2012)

Just wanted to sympathize with the owners and riders and grooms of these two horses.  I've been at several events when things like this have happened, and the winner of one of the US's biggest jumps races--the Iroquois steeplechase--dropped within minutes of completing the race only a month ago.  It's gutwrenching for all concerned.

The vet wisdom over here is that horses do not have heart attacks (myocardial infarctions)  in the way that humans do.  The ones who die during and post exertion usually end up having had aneurysms somewhere in their bodies burst.  Those aneurysms can be in arteries in many places in the body.  I remember one UL eventer who died from an artery bursting near his stomach.  These things are hidden killers, can't be found in normal examinations, and are far more prevalent in horses ten years old and older. 

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=5331


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## Orangehorse (10 June 2012)

How sad, things like this cast a shadow over the whole event.


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## Honey08 (10 June 2012)

How very very sad.  I've just got back - been there since Weds, and never heard a thing.

The ground was superb.  On Thurs/Fri I was sure it would be cancelled, but we took the dogs a walk round some of the course this evening and there wasn't a mark on it, even after two days of XC.  

Another thing to note is that  the trot ups this morning were very thorough.  Lots of horses were sent to the holding box to be double checked, and quite a few failed, so nothing was let out on that course that wasn't fit to be there...


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## stencilface (11 June 2012)

So sad, RIP horses - read the BBC article and I think it actually (although terrible) is good than Ian Stark quoted in it mentioned the recent human athletes who have had unexpected heart attacks, might give people another perspective on horse sports, that it is not cruel, and that it is treated as a tragedy as it would be in any other sport.


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## JVB (11 June 2012)

Supertrooper said:



			silu - my horse died of a heart attack just walking down the road!!!
		
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Ditto, mine died recently of a heart attack while grooming another horse in his field, it can happen anywhere...


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