# The breeding of dogs,  for profit.



## Alec Swan (17 September 2011)

_"Profit"_ is so often the ugly word,  and all so often justifiably.  As I see it,  those who breed dogs,  fall into two categories:

There are those who are experienced,  approach it with conscience,  and have a better than rough idea,  of what they'll end up with.  They will all so often,  show or work their dogs.  They will also live in the real world,  and work out for themselves,  that there is no _direct _money to be made from a litter of puppies. They will almost certainly have secondary incomes,  perhaps from training,  boarding kennels,  or other than canine interests.

Then we have the person who buys a near exotic breed,  at around £1000,  expecting to make money from it.  Bitch puppies are generally more expensive than their male siblings,  for a very good reason.  It would be her perceived future value.  These very same people,  who all so often haven't the faintest idea what they're doing,  and who are then laughingly described as _"Breeders"_,  who dispense advice to the future buyers of their puppies,  and who wouldn't recognise a dog of the correct temperament,  if it bit them.  How often have others asked for my advice,  given me their reasoning,  and when I've looked at them askance,  the reply has been, "Well that's what the breeder said"!!  

Simply because someone calls themselves a breeder,  is no automatic passport to the right to talk rubbish;  rubbish born of complete ignorance.  As a footnote to that,  I'm not referring to everyone who breeds a litter of puppies.

Where is there money to be made,  in breeding dogs?  If a bitch produces one litter of puppies a year,  let's say they would average 7.  Then at an average of £350? each,  and considering the stud fee,  the cost of keeping the bitch for a year,  and the cost of rearing the puppies,  one would need 30 or 40 brood bitches to be able to earn a living,  and it wouldn't be much of one at that,  considering the work load.

I suppose that there are the puppy farms,  as a third option,  but generally they're no better than the second!

Sweeping statements?  Perhaps so,  but "Fools walk etc...." 

Alec.


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## Kaylum (17 September 2011)

Interesting you waiting for another row and in one of your posts you suggested that AAD gets back on track?  

So what exactly do you think? Asking all the questions making all the judgements!


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## Alec Swan (17 September 2011)

Kaylum,

I'm not seeking a row,  but healthy debate.  Either I haven't explained myself too well,  or you haven't understood me.  Not to worry.

Alec.


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## EAST KENT (17 September 2011)

I would not think there is much actual "profit" in breeding dogs ..if you do it the right and ethical way.I have always regarded it as a way,without counting woman hours,of saving.  Money is outlayed on the bitch,her care for a year at least,health tests and showing/working to test if your investment is good enough to breed from.
   Then there is the outlay of stud fees/whelping care/equipment and rearing costs.Advertising,vaccinations..need I go on?
 There are two types are`nt there? The stolid breed devotee (me) and the ones that jump breeds to a more profitable one ..at the moment the bull terrier people are getting French Bulldogs.Once that market slumps due to over production it will be something else.
   There is one woman in mini bullies who churned out 16 litters a year,not one was worth showing,now she`s jumped sideways into breeding "Blue" Frenchies and Chinese Cresteds (urgh)All purely for profit,the blue Frenchies are £3000 !


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## Cedars (17 September 2011)

I only have two experiences of breeders. 

1 was chloes breeder. Irresponsible, dogs got in together on Christmas day whilst family were having lunch. Charged us £450, partially because mum gave up on pushing after Chlo so they had a c section. Only good thing was that chlo had gone to a home before-and after a day they'd taken her back. 

Then Brackens breeder. Bred from her bitch, who she had bred from her previous bitch, to a v v proper dog. Had brackens mum and brackens uncle, and brackens grandmother. She bred because she wanted another dog to keep-she works hers. She did absolutely everything right with the birth and the puppies-had buyers for all but one from 2weeks-and the one she eventually sold at 8 weeks, she was totally prepared to keep. 

She has been an invaluable resource, a fantastic friend, and a confidant in the worst times with Chloe. She charged us 600 for bracken-but we have hip scores for EVERY dog back 9 generations on one side, and 11 on the other. And her support is priceless. Her price also reflected the current going rate, and she personally doesnt feel she made much of a profit-particularly as we all left with a full huge bag of food, 3 vet beds, loads of suitable chews and treats, and weetabix! Haha.


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## quirky (17 September 2011)

My mother has a bitch that before she was allowed to buy, the owners sat down and interviewed both her and my father.
They were allowed on that day to 'hypothetically' choose a dog whilst the breeders took up references from the vet my mum and dad have used for years.
After taking up references, the breeders contacted my parents to inform they had been successful and could have the bitch they had chosen.

The breeders have put a covenant (I think it is called that) on the bitch that she cannot be bred unless the original breeders have a say as to who the stud dog is. Yes, they could breed to some random dog but even if he was KC registered, the puppies would not be.
My parents have never bred and neither wish to but it is something the breeder does with all their dogs. The reason being they have imported dogs from Germany to better the breed and they don't want that 'good' breeding ruined by people who are after a quick buck.

Personally, I think it is a good idea on the breeders part but if somebody is going to make a fast buck from their bitches womb, I doubt any covenant will stop them. They will just breed more and charge less at a guess.


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## MurphysMinder (17 September 2011)

Most decent breeders will do everything you describe Quirky, and will put endorsements on the registration papers re breeding.   Unfortunately this only applies to kc reg puppies, and this I suspect is why you often see pups advertised as pedigree but no kc papers.  It is a way of getting round the kc endorsement, and also of course designer breeds cannot be kc registered but can command stupid prices so yet another loophole.
As to the original question,  I tend not to factor in the cost of keeping my bitch, as I would have her anyhow whether she was being bred from or not.  But all the others things mentioned, health tests, stud fees, whelping costs and rearing the pups certainly would eat into any money earned from selling the pups.  I would be lying if I said I didn't have some extra cash left after having  a litter, but certainly not a huge amount, the last litter I made enough to buy a new lawnmower - no not a ride on a push along.
One of the things that really narks me about people who breed a litter without any thought to the welfare of the breed, or the puppies, is that they are able to call themselves breeders, to me that is a title to be earned.  Like Brackens breeder I have made many lasting friendships with people who have bought my pups, in fact I had a phone call from someone only last week who had a dog from me 23 years ago , obviously they have long since lost their lad but we keep in touch, and they are interested in an Evie pup.


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## Dry Rot (17 September 2011)

Looking at the header of this thread, I thought, "That needs to be in the jokes section", but I see there isn't one!


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## s4sugar (17 September 2011)

Dry Rot said:



			Looking at the header of this thread, I thought, "That needs to be in the jokes section", but I see there isn't one!

Click to expand...


Nice !


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## lexiedhb (18 September 2011)

I asked about breeding for profit on another forum recently- once they had stopped shouting at me got some really interesting replies. Basically as I see it if you do it properly- health tests, stud fees, vet care, scans, puppy packs, showing the dogs in question, keep a pup for yourself etc etc then there is little or no profit to be had from breeding, especially if you have a small litter.

Take joe bloggs dog from down the road and cross it with your own, without any thought to the outcome, vet care etc and give em a daft name- and bobs ya uncle pennies in the bank.


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## EAST KENT (18 September 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			I asked about breeding for profit on another forum recently- once they had stopped shouting at me got some really interesting replies. Basically as I see it if you do it properly- health tests, stud fees, vet care, scans, puppy packs, showing the dogs in question, keep a pup for yourself etc etc then there is little or no profit to be had from breeding, especially if you have a small litter.

Take joe bloggs dog from down the road and cross it with your own, without any thought to the outcome, vet care etc and give em a daft name- and bobs ya uncle pennies in the bank.
		
Click to expand...

You`ve nailed it !


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## MydnightShadow (18 September 2011)

Just posted in Education not Character Assassination but post sort of belongs here as well:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=484218&page=6


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## copper100 (18 September 2011)

Mr Swan I have read your posts on this forum, and always found you to be a very positive and thoughtful person.

I don't often post on here and I hope when I do I have a valid reason reason for doing so. 

Having just read most of that breeding thread again and am shocked as to how it esclated into the pages that it became, the venom indicated shocked me on some posts.

I personally do not believe in breeding for a profit, and certainly not for any kind reckless reason.  I fully understand how harsh it would be to be working in the rescue area of the dog world.

Having said that, I had a Lanchashire Heeler/Ormkirk Terrier, came from a rescue situation now on the endangered list for the KC and wouldn't have been bred had it not been for a Manchestershire Terrier meeting a Corgi one day. Very robust and working breed that


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## Dobiegirl (18 September 2011)

copper100 said:



			Mr Swan I have read your posts on this forum, and always found you to be a very positive and thoughtful person.

I don't often post on here and I hope when I do I have a valid reason reason for doing so. 

Having just read most of that breeding thread again and am shocked as to how it esclated into the pages that it became, the venom indicated shocked me on some posts.

I personally do not believe in breeding for a profit, and certainly not for any kind reckless reason.  I fully understand how harsh it would be to be working in the rescue area of the dog world.

Having said that, I had a Lanchashire Heeler/Ormkirk Terrier, came from a rescue situation now on the endangered list for the KC and wouldn't have been bred had it not been for a Manchestershire Terrier meeting a Corgi one day. Very robust and working breed that
		
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You may be interested to know myself and another poster Murphysminder also own Lancashire Heelers and our pups are just a few weeks apart in age.We both had Heelers in the past and have renewed our love of the breed. The origins of the Lancashire Heeler is not as definite as you say merely they are believed to have originated from a Manchester Terrier/Corgi. I can certainly attest to their working abilities my previous Heelers were great cattle dogs,ratters & rabbiters as well as being great pets and a good house dog.


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## Dobiegirl (18 September 2011)

Forgot to say if you click on search for Pip & Pickle you will see picsof our lovely puppies.


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## Alec Swan (20 September 2011)

copper100 said:



			Having just read most of that breeding thread again and am shocked as to how it esclated into the pages that it became, the venom indicated shocked me on some posts.
		
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Believe it or not,  the rather sad thread,  to which you refer,  was generally out of character for AAD.  By and large,  those on here are a bunch of super supportive people.  Perhaps it touched a raw nerve with some. Don't know!

Heelers?  I've not had that much to do with them,  as a breed,  but all those which I've seen have been well rounded,  happy,  bright and super little dogs.  The first that I saw was before the days when they were accepted by the KC.  When they were,  I'll be honest,  my heart sank.  I see so few that I can't say how the breed is now,  but following on from our beloved 2 yo lurcher,  who I put down last year,  I'm still working on persuading my OH to have a Heeler.  The grandest of the small breeds,  in my opinion! 

Alec.


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## Chestnuttymare (20 September 2011)

lexiedhb said:



			I asked about breeding for profit on another forum recently- once they had stopped shouting at me got some really interesting replies. Basically as I see it if you do it properly- health tests, stud fees, vet care, scans, puppy packs, showing the dogs in question, keep a pup for yourself etc etc then there is little or no profit to be had from breeding, especially if you have a small litter.

Take joe bloggs dog from down the road and cross it with your own, without any thought to the outcome, vet care etc and give em a daft name- and bobs ya uncle pennies in the bank.
		
Click to expand...

Spot on!
My Caras breeders are well known in Dobermanns, I have known them for 25 years and went to them because I know that the pups will be given the very best start in life and have always bred for looks AND temperament. They always bred when they needed a new dog and to improve their lines.  I doubt very much if they have made very much money from it over the years because they have done it properly. They don't interview potential owners, it is more like an interrogation I believe! thankfully i didn't have to go through that process lol.
I would like to know how the fancy named mongrels started, is it down to the Guide dogs for the blind breeding labradoodles? I think they were the first, i could be wrong though.


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## marmalade76 (20 September 2011)

Perhaps some 'breeders' are not trying to make a 'living' out of breeding dogs, just supplementing their benefits?


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## howsthat (20 September 2011)

There is a lot of money to be made from breeding dogs,that is of course if you have generally nonKC registered too young bitch of any breed and mate her to any dog available
 any breed will do,call the resulting pups some stupid made up name then advertise the pups as rare,hey presto loads of buyers willing to part with loadsa dosh for their special designer rare breed pup !!!!!!!!


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