# Which do use - Chambon, Pessoa or Side Reins ?



## Zaffy (18 August 2008)

As in the title - interested to know thoughts on which is most effective for lunging to support in strengthening the back muscles. What are the pros and cons ?

Cheers

Z


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## Coffee_Bean (18 August 2008)

Personally I use a pessoa (well cheap ebay copy but basically the same) , my girl works well in it and its useful as you can use it on several different settings. But there are some people on here who hate it, sure they will give you their view 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 It is essential that is fits right though.


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## only_me (18 August 2008)

i use none of them, more old fashioned hill work 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 and correct training 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 (was taught to ride by old fashioned instructor 
	
	
		
		
	


	




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if i had the finances i would use the pessoa for building up muscle, as if used correctly is very effective. 

side reins can create a "broken" outline  - ie yes in an outline but not working properly from the back. it can lead to them being very stiff in the back, imo.


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## xnaughtybutnicex (18 August 2008)

I like the lungie bungie things but other people on here dont like them. it is good as the horse can bend how it likes without as much force or stiffness as side reins


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## only_me (18 August 2008)

ohh i hate the lungie bungie!! my old ponio came to me was worked ONLY on the bungie - he was so nearly ruined as as soon as bungie was taken off his head went up 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 took me a year to get him working correctly in an outline on the bit - most people thought i wouldnt ever be able to get him on the bit!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 its my most hated gadget 
	
	
		
		
	


	





im sure it works wonders in the right hands though


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## rubyred (18 August 2008)

I love chambons! No restriction through the front end so encourages a swinging back but do need to use transitions etc to keep engagement, not just have them trundling round on their head.


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## xnaughtybutnicex (18 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
ohh i hate the lungie bungie!! my old ponio came to me was worked ONLY on the bungie - he was so nearly ruined as as soon as bungie was taken off his head went up 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 took me a year to get him working correctly in an outline on the bit - most people thought i wouldnt ever be able to get him on the bit!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 its my most hated gadget 
	
	
		
		
	


	





im sure it works wonders in the right hands though 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

LOL i can see you were trying not to offend there, but it really depends on the horses, some horses hate it.


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## Hullabaloo (18 August 2008)

I use a pessoa as advised by my vet as my horse had a weak back.  He said a chambon wouldn't do the same job as it doesn't work the back end.
I've found the pessoa very effective, and as someone else said it has the advantage of having more than one setting.


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## rocketdog69 (18 August 2008)

I agree with pooh-bah.

In my eyes gadgets cause more harm than good in the end.

Plenty of hill work, ride and lead, build up muscle naturally, dont force it!


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## jen1 (18 August 2008)

Yes totally agree! My horse is good (or was but that's another story) at looking fantastic in side reins but although his head and neck look good there's nothing happening from behind, found the Pessoa much better for a whole and rounded outline. Not used the other products so can't comment.


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## RachelFerd (18 August 2008)

I don't see how putting a bit of string around the horses quarters 'works' the back end. have seen too many horses being pulled in the mouth by the pessoa when they actually work with the hindlegs.

I personally use side reins or a chambon. Prefer the chambon - it is non restrictive - encourages the horse to stretch forwards and down with a swinging back - waving a 6ft lunge whip is usually enough to make the back end 'work'  
	
	
		
		
	


	





Side reins do a different job to the chambon, and I think are useful with horses that have not yet learnt to accept a steady contact. Would always lunge in side reins rather than nothing, as it gives something for the horse to work into.


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## Shipley (18 August 2008)

I use a pessoa but also lunge with nothing and do hill work


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## Hullabaloo (18 August 2008)

Well I'm happy to defer to the vet as he specialises in backs and is one the leading vets in the country in this area.  All I can say it it has made a huge difference to my horse who was on the point of being unrideable.
My horse has always worked happily in a pessoa but hates a chambon.


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## RachelFerd (18 August 2008)

not criticising your choice - just my personal take on it. I know plenty of horses that will work well with the hindleg in a chambon - it's just a case of the lunger working the horse rather than the equipment working the horse.

I could never use a pessoa - I'd tangle it unfathomably straight away.


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## volatis (18 August 2008)

Hate the pessoa, the physics and forces involced frighten me. Would never use one

Use either a chambon or side reins. You do have to know how to lunge well to use a chambon to get the horse using its hocks, but I do like it to work the back correctly


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## malibu211211 (18 August 2008)

None of the above, just to be awkward 
	
	
		
		
	


	









I use two lunge lines which is what my instructor told me to do when Monty came home from being schooled. Unlike all the above you control the feel through the reins, more like riding them I think 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 Have found it works better with stirrups secured under the horse with an old leather. You can also adjust the height of the stirrups depending on whether you want to work them long and low or not. Can also control the bend more if you have inside rein going from stirrup through bit to hand.


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## checkmate1 (18 August 2008)

I do what the stropster does, lunge with two lines, I do have a pessoa, but have never used it!!! She works correctly in walk on trot, used her back, tracks up the whole works wiht 2 lunge lines. (Am not cantering at the mo-horse injured)


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## Hullabaloo (18 August 2008)

Mine obviously wasn't one of them - we did try a chambon before the vet suggested the pessoa and it didn't have the same effect.  Maybe it was the lunger - but I've had plenty of practice since (12 weeks lunging last summer!)  
	
	
		
		
	


	





In an ideal world I wouldn't use gadgets, but the pessoa is effective for my horse (and not too hard to untangle as long as you don't drop it or lend it to a friend!)


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## only_me (18 August 2008)

the lunging with 2 reins is called long reining 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 thats what we do instead of using gadgets! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





my YO (instructor as well 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 ) is fantastic at long reining - she gets horses going fantastically on it, and she gives me and her daughter lessons on horse whilst she is long reining sometimes - its fantastic for your position - she can change the rein at any time


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## lauraanddolly (18 August 2008)

I use side reins, but have used the pessoa, she didn't go badly in it,  but I don't like the fact they are jabbed in the mouth every stride by there own action. Considering trying a chambon instead. I found this site quite informative I thought. http://www.sustainabledressage.com/tack/gadgets.php


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## xnaughtybutnicex (18 August 2008)

I've never used the pessoa but looking at that site i completely understand how the horse is being jab in the mouth and i though they were quite good before this but that has def. put me off.


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## xnaughtybutnicex (18 August 2008)

This is what is said about the lungie bungie.. i do know there are diff. ones btw.


"It is ideal for use on young horses in their early schooling or on the older horses who need remouthing," says Clayton Fredericks, who worked on the idea with his wife, Lucinda.

The Lungie Bungie is designed primarily for use while lunging but it can also be used on a horse being ridden. "It allows lateral movement of the head and is particularly useful and successful when working on the canter," he says. "The horses find their balance much more quickly."

"This aid can also be used when the horse is being ridden or for very short times in the stable to encourage the horse to develop the muscles enabling it to find self carriage."


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## Shilasdair (18 August 2008)

QR
Not aimed at anyone, but I don't think anyone should use any of these gadgets until they can name all the bones in the skeleton, and explain the location and function of most of the  muscles, tendons and ligaments, too.
There are far too many people throwing gadgets on as a shortcut to proper outlines/collection/engagement. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




(Not saying everyone falls into this category...)
S


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## Zebedee (18 August 2008)

Surely though all anyone needs to know about any gadget is that so long as it makes the horse tuck it's nose in &amp; look pretty then it's being used correctly?  
	
	
		
		
	


	













I actually agree with Shiladair. Anyone who doesn't understand the underlying skeletal / muscular structures should not be using any kind of "gadget".


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## xnaughtybutnicex (18 August 2008)

S.. 
I think i could name alot of them but not all as i have read books, books and more books and have also looked into which gadgets put the most pressure where, which gadgets allow for most freedom of movement ect. and have used the lungie bungie before but generally i dont lunge in gadgets(TBO i dont lunge that much) and this is not how i taught my horse to work in an outline, done that with plenty of schooling(along with my sister as she rides her aswell) and it did take months and still still does not work constantly in an outline. I do not used draw reins ever but have nothing against those who do.

was not offended by your comment btw just felt i needed to clarify the fact that i didnt constantly use these things.


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## RachelB (18 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Surely though all anyone needs to know about any gadget is that so long as it makes the horse tuck it's nose in &amp; look pretty then it's being used correctly?  
	
	
		
		
	


	













[/ QUOTE ]
That's what I always thought, make sure the front end is firmly tied in and you're sorted?! 
	
	
		
		
	


	








I use a Pessoa but I use it more loosely than I "should"... so it's more of a guide than forcing the horse down (and that was it doesn't jab them in the mouth). I do a lot of lungeing in draw reins too, but mostly only on the horses who are already off the forehand or it ends up dragging more weight onto the shoulders. I've never tried a chambon so can't comment on that. I dislike side reins for anything apart from babies really, they are just too "fixed" for my liking. Berlin would spend the entire time fighting them and my horse just ignored them!


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## kirstyhen (18 August 2008)

My horse would be an ideal advert for anyone who thought that any gadjets are pants!
Put anything on him and he will drop behind the vertical, become solid in his neck and shuffle his hindlegs along, no matter how much you growl/chase with the whip/stamp you feet/beat him to death!! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 He does it in side reins, pessoa, equi ami, chambon etc etc!
To be honest lunging him for me is more about seeing him move from the ground, I find it impossible to do any groundwork with him, as he just becomes tense and unbalanced, or launches himself towards you!!
So he does lots of schooling (on hacks as well as in the school) and lots of long, slow hillwork.


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## Bounty (18 August 2008)

I use the Equi Ami - just once, possibly twice, a week when I lunge. However, it is used loosely and I am religious about warming up and cooling down naked, and very thoroughly. 

Our gelding has recently had kissing spine surgery and is shortly commencing 6weeks rehab on the lunge - dreading it as it goes against all of my principles 
	
	
		
		
	


	





IMO side reins have no place in schooling, other than perhaps loosely in the very initial backing/breaking of a youngster to teach them about a contact on the mouth, though I much prefer to long line to do this.
My side reins, however, I am indebted to atm as they are helping keep me safe and earthbound while handwalking my 6yo who is just coming off box rest and feeling VERY well!


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## rara007 (18 August 2008)

None of them. None of them, which the exception of lunging on 2 lines IMO can help a horse 'learn' to use its whole body. IMO to get a horse going well it needs to have something human on the end of the reins. Mechanical things can only acheive 'false' outlines. Admittedly they can get the head in, and with alot of shouting/whip waving you may just he able to get them to rush enough to track up.


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## username223 (18 August 2008)

None of them, a roller with a tail bandage tied round the back end. Cheap and effective, makes the horse more aware of their back end and use their hocks aswell, but at the same time has nothing jabbing them in the mouth.. really helped my youngster develop back muscles..


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## Shilasdair (18 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

was not offended by your comment btw just felt i needed to clarify the fact that i didnt constantly use these things. 

[/ QUOTE ]

My comment wasn't aimed at you, or anyone in particular.  I just feel too many people use 'gadgets' without thinking why, what the horse will do, what the horse should be doing, etc.
I had no intention to offend anyone.
S


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## lachlanandmarcus (18 August 2008)

I use the Pessoa and find it very good for building up backside and back on horsie who had been sick and lost it all and also was forehand heavy, also as hes 17 hands and we have no manege it solved his previous trick of just tanking off with the lunge line and then treading on it and hurting his shoulder :-( It has been very useful. I dont have it very tight tho, just a slight contact which disappears if he works a little behind. 

I also use long reining (2 lunge lines) a lot with both horses.


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## Silverspring (19 August 2008)

Surely there is no greater way to get your horse super light in the hand than by putting a pessao on an socking it in the gob every time it engages it's hind legs?

The pessoa surely teach the horse that back legs engaged means full force (of horse, not tiny person!) jabbing at (probably single jointed) bit in mouth.  I think I'd rather use draw reins over a pessoa, at least then you can pick em up and put em down as you see fit.  The pessoa is constantly there, never misses a trick, the legs engages the mouth gets jabbed, utter nonsense I say!

Another option would be to atually ride the horse, if you can be bothered riding then give your horse a day off too 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 my girl doesn't lunge (I mean really just doesn't lunge stand there looking at you with a face of 'Well you're doing sweet FA so why should I?') and I've come to terms wtih the fact that I ride or she gets time off, it's simple and I am a far fitter rider than most of the lazy lungers at my yard.


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## Hullabaloo (19 August 2008)

Believe me there are many many times I would far rather ride my horse than lunge him but in his case his work on the lunge is what keeps his back strong and supple enough to ride.  Therefore I have to incorporate a degree of lunging into his work.  
There are lots of reasons why people lunge horses (with or without pessoas, chambons, side reins etc) and most of them are nothing to do with being lazy!


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## Silverspring (19 August 2008)

I don't understand how lunging can strengthen a horse's back better than riding it correctly?  IMO If you sit on the horse you should be able to feel that the horse is using it's back correctly and therefore building the correct muscles.  IMO standing on the ground it is almost impossible to be sure the horse is balanced, working through it's back evenly and correctly and it not in an discomfort.

I think lunging can cause far more problems than it can fix 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 and you may not be a lazy lunger but the people at my yard are, they are self confesseed lazy lungers, I quote 'I can't be assed riding tonight, I'm just going to lunge!'


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## Hullabaloo (19 August 2008)

Because it allows them to work the back muscles without carrying the weight of a rider.  If the muscles aren't able to support weight, as was the case with my horse last year, you can sit as correctly as you like, but the horse will be in discofort or pain and won't be able to build muscle.  
I won't bore you with the whole saga, but my horse had problems on and off for a long time and this was the treatment recommended by a vet who is one of the leading back specialists in the country.  I followed his advice to the letter and it has worked so I have to disagree with you on this one  
	
	
		
		
	


	




As for lazy lungers - I never understand why someone would lunge because they can't be bothered riding.  It takes as long to faff around with the lunge gear that you might as well have the fun of riding.  That was always my point of view until last year - now I think maybe I should've been lunging more often!


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## Silverspring (19 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
If the muscles aren't able to support weight, as was the case with my horse last year, you can sit as correctly as you like, but the horse will be in discofort or pain and won't be able to build muscle.  


[/ QUOTE ]

So in this situation clearly you have to lunge as the horse cannot carry a rider, however, the people on here that are talking about lunging are lungin healthy horses that are ridden regularly.  I should have been more clear, what I wanted to know is what lunging could do for a healthy horse that can be ridden that riding alone cannot do?  I genuinely want to know what it can do that riding can't other than give the rider a day off


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## Hullabaloo (19 August 2008)

I guess everyone has their own reasons for lunging.
With mine it does help him keep his muscle and I notice a difference if I don't do it.  So for me its mainly because I have to, and often I would rather be riding.  However I do like to watch him from the ground sometimes as it gives a different perspective to riding.


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## Shilasdair (19 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the muscles aren't able to support weight, as was the case with my horse last year, you can sit as correctly as you like, but the horse will be in discofort or pain and won't be able to build muscle.  


[/ QUOTE ]

So in this situation clearly you have to lunge as the horse cannot carry a rider, however, the people on here that are talking about lunging are lungin healthy horses that are ridden regularly.  I should have been more clear, what I wanted to know is what lunging could do for a healthy horse that can be ridden that riding alone cannot do?  I genuinely want to know what it can do that riding can't other than give the rider a day off 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Well, lunging is about twice the work of riding, as the horse is constantly going on a circle.  This means where you could normally ride the horse for 40mins, you could exercise it similarly by lunging for 20 mins.  It also means that you have to be careful you don't overdo lunging as it can adversely affect the horse's joints.
Lunging can allow you to view your horse's movement - you can see how engaged it is behind, whether it is tracking up, which joints it flexes more, which toe it drags, how stiff it is to one side.
You can also see whether it is using its back muscles properly, whether it can work quietly in an outline by itself, can work out for itself what contact is, etc.
Lunging is useful, as is riding, IMO
S


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## Silverspring (19 August 2008)

Clearly we have differing opinions, I don't think how a horse behaves on the lunge is a true reflection of how it behaves under saddle.

I've seen so many horses that will point blank refuse to lower their head be put on the lunge with gadgets like the pessoa, the harbridge, side reins etc and forced to do something they would never do under saddle.  In my opinion the majority of people like to see the pony do pretty circles with it's head down, chase it enough with a whip and it'll track up too.  Then they get on the horse jams it's head back in the air and the back legs stop working and the rider thinks they are riding the same pretty pony they lunged the other day.

If you need an opinion on how your horse works get an instructor to look at it, video yourself or let someone else ride your horse I really don't believe getting a picture of your horse is a good reason to lunge.


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## Shilasdair (19 August 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Clearly we have differing opinions, I don't think how a horse behaves on the lunge is a true reflection of how it behaves under saddle.

I've seen so many horses that will point blank refuse to lower their head be put on the lunge with gadgets like the pessoa, the harbridge, side reins etc and forced to do something they would never do under saddle.  In my opinion the majority of people like to see the pony do pretty circles with it's head down, chase it enough with a whip and it'll track up too.  Then they get on the horse jams it's head back in the air and the back legs stop working and the rider thinks they are riding the same pretty pony they lunged the other day.

If you need an opinion on how your horse works get an instructor to look at it, video yourself or let someone else ride your horse I really don't believe getting a picture of your horse is a good reason to lunge. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I didn't explain very clearly.
I don't think that the aim of lunging, or of riding should be to get the horse to 'lower its head' - I prefer to think less of the head and neck, and more of the engagement behind - so whether the horse is tracking up does matter, in my opinion.  When the horse engages his hind end, he should carry more weight actively behind, and step further under himself to do so (loosely described as tracking up in my post, should maybe have been 'overtracking' but it depends on conformation).
The lunge whip is used to replace your legs - chasing with legs or whips is obviously undesirable, as it would ruin the rhythm of the horse's work.  Horses should not be running scared of the lunge whip, nor your leg, they should, however, react to both.
Circle work is used, under saddle, and on the lunge, to encourage the horse to engage its inside hind, and hopefully, to increase suppleness.  It could be said that for a stiff, or weak horse, it is easier for them to build the correct muscles (topline and abdominals) without the weight of the rider.
Instructors also, I believe, sometimes recommend lunging.  And in my experience of instructors  many use lunge work and other forms of ground work, to improve their horses' way of going.   
I have heard that some classical dressage training establishments also use ground work to teach various movements, so it must have some value, even if my explanations are not very good.
S


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## Shilasdair (19 August 2008)

Yay!  Threadkiller!
S


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