# Grafenstolz



## torocamtv (1 January 2010)

HI,

I am putting my mare in foal this year.  I am considering a horse called Grafenstolz and was wondering if anyone had any info on what his progeny are doing competitively and commercially if they are selling well.  I am breeding for an event horse, my mare is AA half sister (out of same mare) as a 3* event horse.  She has always been a broodmare and tends to produce horses that jump well, and move correctly.

Many Thanks


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## LEC (1 January 2010)

He has a page on facebook with photos of his progeny cannot help on prices though!


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## FrodoBeutlin (1 January 2010)

Hi,

I love him! He is a very popular sire here in Germany, there are quite a lot of his progeny around (including the big auctions). A friend of mine has used him twice on her eventing mare and she sold last year's foal as a 6-month foal, really easily (though I don't know the price, and this was in Italy, not in the UK).


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## Alec Swan (1 January 2010)

torocam,

there is no question that Graf is a first class sire,  but possibly along with others it depends to a large extent upon the TYPE of mare which you have.

'Phone the agent/owner,  in France.  He will,  I feel sure,  give you sound advice.  You will probably need to set aside at least half an hour for the call,  he's passionate about the horse!  I would suggest that his opinion is worth considering.

Alec.


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## torocamtv (1 January 2010)

Thanks Alec - I have spoke to Kenneth and you are very correct he is passionate about the horse and his breeding! We have decided that either Grafenstolz or Jaguar Mail would be a nice cross for the stamp of Mare I have.  I am just interested to see what his progeny are doing.  As he is a foreign stallion it is harder to find out what they are doing.  I also would like to see what sort of money they are selling for (mainly out of itnterest!).  I am fairly certain I will be going with Graf for several reasons but the main ones being the quality of the horse as well as the customer service that I believe Kenneth will provide.  

Any info you may have on some youngstock on the floor over here greatly appreciated!!


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## Gingerbear (2 January 2010)

Hi 

I have seen this stallion out at a couple of stallion shows last year! you should check that he is suitable for your mares as he had to have the socks lunged off him for at least thirty minutes before the rider could get on him. I am sure that e is a very nice european type but is he the best for your mare? 

maybe you should look at others like jumbo or similar and not get too involved in the hype of this horse and the marketing machine behind him.


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## maestro (2 January 2010)

Im not sure both stallions would suit the same mare Jaguar Mail is very tall and leggy while Grafenstolz is a lot smaller. I would suggest a AA would stand a stronger scopier type, proven stallions with foals on the ground such as Jumbo, Revolution, Mill Law would also be worht looking at.


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## popsdosh (2 January 2010)

Couldnt agree more with re the hype for Graf in my opinion Jaguar mail is the best stallion on record at present but there are lots of others that may be suitable.Prices of his youngstock is immaterial unless you know how they are bred because the mare may be topnotch and the reason why they make a high price.
Some stallions appear to have great progeny but when you dig deeper they have been bred to the top mares available and after all IMHO the mare is more important in the breeding equation.
If I was you I would contact Twemlows as they are agents for several stallions and I am sure would give you an honest opinion as to suitability with your mare.There are some very good British bred stallions after all.


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## madmare22 (2 January 2010)

Popsdosh Twemlows are not agents for stallions, they are a stud and AI centre. They are certainly very knowledgeable and would be able to advise but they are not agents.


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## popsdosh (2 January 2010)

Well certainly last summer when we approached them about covering 3 mares they told us they could get semen for whatever stallion we wanted that makes them an agent in my mind.


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## TayloredEq (2 January 2010)

Gingerbear - I understand that the stallion stood at Twemlows for the stud season where he did not recieve regular schooling as he was so busy covering. I don't think it is fair to comment that the horse needed lunging prior to being shown off when he had in effect been in prison (albiet having lots of sex) during this time.
My horses have had to be in for the last 3 weeks due to the weather even with going on the walker every day for up to 2 hours I still had to lunge my gelding before I got on him so my suggestion would be to the OP that if you want to see the horse for his temprament then go and see him either with his dressage rider (where I believe he is at the moment) or when he returns to stud.


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## jamesmead (2 January 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
 I don't think it is fair to comment that the horse needed lunging prior to being shown off when he had in effect been in prison (albiet having lots of sex) during this time.


[/ QUOTE ] 

Hmm.. at a stallion parade, where you have come expressly to see the stallions and to glean what information you can about them, its fair enough to comment on what you see, I think. 

In any case, this horse always did have a reputation as a professional's horse; and I understand it was difficult at first to find a professional capable of bringing out the best in him.

If the OP is considering Jaguar Mail, presumably a showjumper capable of producing eventing types is acceptable; I'd have a look at the Brendon Stud's young stallion El Thuder; have seen some very impressive foals by him that could IMO do the job.


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## cruiseline (2 January 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
 [ QUOTE ]
 I don't think it is fair to comment that the horse needed lunging prior to being shown off when he had in effect been in prison (albiet having lots of sex) during this time.


[/ QUOTE ] 

Hmm.. at a stallion parade, where you have come expressly to see the stallions and to glean what information you can about them, its fair enough to comment on what you see, I think. 


[/ QUOTE ]

I would have thought that was EXACTLY the aim of a stallion parade  
	
	
		
		
	


	












 a place for prospective clients to form their opinions of possible future sires of their foals and for a prospective client to see if a particular stallion suits their mares both conformationally and temperamentally.

I would also have thought that any professional stallion owner would know that all eyes will be upon their stallion from the moment it is walked out of the horse box on arrival, until the moment it is loaded back in for its return trip home. Therefore it will have been produced to the highest standards and should on the day be at its most well behaved. Other wise what would be the point of taking it.

Another one who will give a thumbs up for El Thuder, I have seen some outstanding foals by him.


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## EPRider (2 January 2010)

I attended Bramham stallion parade and had a good look round the box park, and chat with connections that were prepared to talk about their boys.

The only comment I will make about Grafenstolz is that he needed two people to lead him from the box park to the collecting ring as well as having a rider on board.  No other ridden stallion was led.  To me that spoke volumes about the horse and his temperament.

The two stallions that really stood out for me, for both their behaviour and their connections enthusiasm, were Uptons Deli Circus and Up with the Lark.


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## Diggory (2 January 2010)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
 [ QUOTE ]
 I don't think it is fair to comment that the horse needed lunging prior to being shown off when he had in effect been in prison (albiet having lots of sex) during this time.


[/ QUOTE ] 

Hmm.. at a stallion parade, where you have come expressly to see the stallions and to glean what information you can about them, its fair enough to comment on what you see, I think. 


[/ QUOTE ]

I would have thought that was EXACTLY the aim of a stallion parade  
	
	
		
		
	


	












 a place for prospective clients to form their opinions of possible future sires of their foals and for a prospective client to see if a particular stallion suits their mares both conformationally and temperamentally.

I would also have thought that any professional stallion owner would know that all eyes will be upon their stallion from the moment it is walked out of the horse box on arrival, until the moment it is loaded back in for its return trip home. Therefore it will have been produced to the highest standards and should on the day be at its most well behaved. Other wise what would be the point of taking it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this was a stallion who had been produced by professionals to be shown at his best for his SHOP WINDOW, then just imagine what he is like on a bad day


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## Alec Swan (2 January 2010)

torocam,

I sent a previous post,  but somehow managed to leave these further points off....

That the best of these Continental stallions are out of the top draw,  is possibly a fact.  HOWEVER,  consider this.  The stud fees for these hyped up,  and presumably exotic stallions,  are generally twice and sometimes three times the price of the best of British Stallions.

As others have mentioned there are some very good stallions standing in this country,  and they most certainly shouldn't be overlooked.  Apart from those mentioned above,  have you looked at the Whorridge Stud website?  There's a horse on that site called No Limit.  Just look at his results page,  look at what he has produced,  and if I weren't considering using 2 of my mares as ET recipients this year,  and if they fail to hold,  then I would,  or will beat a path to the Bleekman's door.  

My opinion may well not be worth consideration,  however,  there are certainly those who contribute to this forum who's opinions I most certainly would consider.  Post some pics of your mare,  list her achievements,  and those of her antecedents,  and ask.  It's that simple,  and it's what I'd do.

Alec.


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## magic104 (2 January 2010)

IMHO the mare is the biggest influence &amp; it really does depend on what it is you are trying to achieve.  If the offspring are destined for top draw competition then a bit of fire is often needed.  Also Grafestolz may not be an easy stallion to deal with, does not mean his offspring are the same.   

If I was asking about a stallions offspring, then that is what I would like to hear about.  Some of the posts seem to be straying away from this request. - Quote "I am considering a horse called Grafenstolz and was wondering if anyone had any info on what his progeny are doing competitively and commercially if they are selling well."


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## Alec Swan (2 January 2010)

Magic,

you are,  of course right,  in that we tend to fly off at tangents,  and then predictably,  lose sight of the original question!

Having decided to actually read the question,  and all the responses,  yet again,  I've decided,  that any relatively young stallion,  who is cooped up in a box,  brought out to jump a slightly less than convincing "mare",  and then,  yet again,  the poor bugger is put back into his box,  is probably entitled to put his parts on.  Obviously,  stallions wont have the reasoning behind the wine and dine thing,  but none-the-less,  I must admit that I have some sympathies with him!  

There have been many others on this forum,  who have suggested that stallion behaviour will have a direct correlation to the effect that,  it depends upon their daily routine,  and that must surely be correct.

The larger studs,  with perhaps,  3 or 4 stallions,  and their own brood mares and youngsters to deal with,  on a daily basis,  simply don't have the time to give to their stallions.  It can't be helped,  and those relatively young stallions who play up,  are to be understood,  and not denigrated.

Back to the original post.  Don't ignore the fact that we have some VERY good stallions in this country.  If we didn't,  then would the Stallion Expo have ever been more than a dream?

Alec.


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## Baydale (2 January 2010)

In reply to the OP, and refusing to be drawn into any Ken- or Graf-bashing, I don't think Grafenstolz has many offspring in this country that are competing yet. Other posters have already responded with what his offspring abroad are doing.

Of the two I know (out of the same mare), one has won and been placed in hand v successfully and the other is just starting her ridden career, proving to be level-headed and v trainable. Our mare (by More Pokey) is in foal to Graf, and when I saw him in his stable at Twemlows he seemed very chilled even though it was tea time - maybe food excites him a lot less than mares do. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





If I'd wanted to breed something to hack around on I would probably have chosen a nice ID cross like Primitive Star, but for eventing I won't be too bothered if my choice of stallion means I have something with a bit more "character".

Disclaimer: feel free to remind me of that in four year's time when I'm out and about on him/her.


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## eventrider23 (2 January 2010)

Ok I know this is away from the original post but I have seen that a couple people have mentioned the young Thunder Van de Zuuthoeve stallion El Thuder who stands at Brendons.  I just wanted to also say that if you are considering any other stallions then he is awesome!  I have bred 2 colts by him, both out of different mares....one being out of a WB mare of Beach Boy descent and the other out of a coloured Welsh X.  Both colts are incredibly typey and have amazing temperaments and excellent movement.  Both have been awarded BEF Futurity 1st Prems...the one out of the WB mare being awarded them in the eventing sectin (both as a foal and yearling) and the one out of the coloured mare being awarded one as a SJer.

This is a pic of the colt out of the WB mare....very eventer type and similar to his sire who himself could easily event but is instead SJing very successfully.

This pic is from June 2009 and so he is just barely a year old here:












and at the futurity 2009






Sorry that this has veared off topic but I really rate this stallion


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## shirleyno2 (2 January 2010)

You should be able to check the futurity results on the BEF website, I'm sure i recall Kenneth saying last year about lots of graff foals were due in 2009 and would be entered for the futurities.

Cruiseline and Eventrider, Thank you, El-Thuder is indeed very blood himself [Pippa Funnell is probably one of his biggest fans!!] and throwing very blood type, correct foals [ER that top photo is fabulous]


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## volatis (2 January 2010)

I like Graf as a stallion, and love his motherline, as a Trakehner fan it really is top notch.
But his Trakehner offspring I have seen in Germany disappointed me - these included ones selected for the stallion licensing at Neumunster. Irrespective of who owns him now, I am waiting to see something by him that is as good as Grafenstolz himself before I would use him as a sire.


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## henryhorn (2 January 2010)

Eventrider23, Judging by those pics I can't wait to see the colt as an adult, and yes, perhaps the Op should take a look at his sire, he's obviously throwing quality eventing types.
As a stud who have competed our stallion in public many times and I can say hand on heart we've only ever had him misbehave badly once, and that's because the mare travelling in the box with him came into season en route to the comp. 
He flatly refused to settle and had to be worked longer to ensure he was in the placings .
A stallion who is trained to the level of winning dressage as the one mentioned above should have sufficient manners not to need two people to lead him or lungeing for ages I'm afraid, you're kidding yourself if you believe otherwise. 
G has obviously proved he can compete successfully but it's vital you also pass on a trainable temperament, otherwise you waste so much time producing the offspring.
I think until his stock are out and about proving they are ok I would wait a while, as others have said, there are some superb stallions now in the UK.


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## Alec Swan (2 January 2010)

henryhorn,

"G has obviously proved he can compete successfully but......."

If a horse is to compete successfully,  would you agree that he has therefore demonstrated the fact that he is trainable?

"I think that until his stock are out and about proving they are ok......."

The horse is rising 12 years.  I would imagine that he started his stallion career,  modestly perhaps,  but at 4?  Assuming that he has stock of between 4 &amp; 8 years,  where are they,  and more importantly what have they done?  

Is it the case that there are those stallions,  who no matter how well bred,  or what their achievements,  never actually produce horses which compete successfully?  There is little mention of his progeny,  apart from the opinions of judges,  on his website.

There is no intention within this post to trip anyone up.  I would,  quite simply,  be interested to hear the answers to my questions.

Alec.


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## eventrider23 (2 January 2010)

SSJEZ - I LOVE that photo of Tam - is one of my absolute favourites and believe me I have HUNDREDS of him!! If you want to use it to show off dad's progeny feel free!

HH - Thank you.  I really think he is special...but then I would, wouldn't I?  He is being left entire and so we will see how he matures but it is nice to hear other opinons on him.

Back to the OP _ i actually remember us speaking some time back when you PM'd me about Thunder van de Zuuthoeve horses....if his line is still something you are keen on then look no further.  Personally I do not like Jaguar Mail.....I do not know why as he was clearly 'all the rage' a year or so ago but there is just something about him that does not float my boat as a sire.  HIS sire Hand in Glove on the other hand....yes yes yes!  Future Sports Horses have a Hand in Glove due next year...maybe speak to them about the line.....  Grafenstolz.....I am not convinced on....I like HIM and he is undoubtedly and incredibly talented and skilled animal in whatever sport has been asked of him BUT....I dunno.....I have seen a few of his stock...some very nice and others not so nice but I would say that I would make sure you use the right mare on him....maybe email his previous owners at Birkhof and see what type of mare they think suits him best as they will have seen more of his foals than anyone.


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## henryhorn (2 January 2010)

You put it far more eloquently than I Alec!
I am wary of any line that produces various quirks like being sharp to ride, having been bitten like that ourselves when we started breeding many years ago.
Over time I have seen progeny of various stallions exhibit their characteristics to a T, and one of the most difficult to eliminate is being a very forward ride. 
By  his results a stallion can prove he is trainable despite appearing sharp in public, but add that quirk to a hot headed mare line and you can end up with dynamite.
Our old stallion was no mug's ride and some of his offspring were the same, so we chose very carefully stallions for them who had no history of being sharp.
Regardless of that now and then one slips through and although a professional has no problem riding them, they aren't suitable for the average DIY rider, and I have sold on any brood mare who has produced that trait.
I don't think you can really rate a stallion's ability to sire similar talented horses until they reach their mid teens, most are out competing until at least 8 or 10, so not covering all season and another vital point is often missed.
I would  say that regardless of how talented a horse a stallion might sire, without really good riders they will never fulfill their potential.
So many top studs like Brendon, The Billy Stud and the Whittakers have first rate riders on their horses from day one, which has to help their eventual production and competition records.
There must be hundreds more potentially superb horses who never see top level comps merely due to lack of rider talent or the money to produce them .
Look at Mary King and Pippa Funnel, their homebreds are doing superbly well in comps, but would they have ended up going as well had they been owned and ridden by less able riders? !
I think if a stallion is covering a lot of mares and still the results aren't good after say 10 years then they perhaps aren't that good after all, but it takes a long time to produce the offspring so realistically, I'd not expect anything wonderful results wise until the oldest was at least 8 or more.


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## Alec Swan (3 January 2010)

H-H,

your response was as well reasoned,  and argued,  as any that I've yet to read on this forum.  

Thank you.

Alec.


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## CILLA (3 January 2010)

Hi Torocam

We have used Graf on our mare this year a 15.2 warmblood. Went to Twemlows to see him very well behaved in his stable they trotted him up for us and then stood him whilst we had a look at his confirmation .Have also seen him at stallion parades and can dance around! However i would expect it after being stabled 24/7. Our vet is moving to Twemlows when she arrives back from Australia she is first class and highly rated i would say give Noelle a ring she will give you sound advice and be impartial to what is standing at Twemlows she suggested many stallions for our mare but it was Graf who fit the bill. I have seen some of his offspring but not competing yet. Looking forward to our foal due end of May. Good Luck with whoever you choose.


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## getbikestarlight (4 January 2010)

you could think of using Grafwenstolz's sire Polarion, grand prix dressage ride of Laura Bechtolsheimer, absolutely FANTASTIC temperament and 3/4 TB but moves like a warmblood. champion Trekhener sire.


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## TheMule (4 January 2010)

One of his oldest progeny is FBW Gin Tonic who's FEI record is here-
http://www.fei.org/Search_Centre/Result/...CD745C2A51D4ED9
He certainly didnt go to Le Lion as Grafenstolz's website claimed he would.

And the other one is Vincent TSF who has a better record but who also didnt go to Le Lion-
http://www.fei.org/Search_Centre/Result/...0FB10085FDFF431


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