# So what has British Eventing done wrong?



## Orangehorse (7 March 2022)

I read a long thread at the weekend about how many people are not going to affiliate to do British Eventing this year.  Leaving aside the cost of diesel, and personal circumstances such as having children and can't afford it any more, what has been going on?  At one time it was everyone's ambition to do affiliated eventing - you could be in the same class as a world champion and you might be in the same class as a future Badminton winner, everyone had to start at the beginning.

There was a similar thread not long ago about the cost, but eventing has always been expensive.  For anyone working in an ordinary everyday job it was a case of an entry being the same as half a week's wages, having to take annual leave to go to a mid week event and for the ordinary person with an ordinary horse, competing at Novice was usually as much as they aspired to.

However if you had a real special horse you could aim for the top, taking a second job in a pub at night and getting up very early to exercise the horse.  I had a couple of friends who managed to do a first level three day event on this basis, one even worked in London in the week and came back at the weekends to ride, as the wages were much higher there and her parents kept the horse going.

But it seems that in general people are now very disillusioned and I wondered what has been going on.


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## Lindylouanne (7 March 2022)

Its expensive and you can compete unaffiliated for much less on the same courses. My local XC venue has cancelled their first BE event because there were so few entires and they just couldn’t afford to lose money once they started the ballot process. There are no such problems filling spaces when Horse Events run the same type of event over a weekend at the same venue.

As a volunteer I have only fence judged once for BE and never again but I’m happy to help the organisers at Horse Events because they are well run and they look after us brilliantly.


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## Patterdale (7 March 2022)

The introduction of 80 classes was where it all went wrong. It’s no longer aspirational because anyone can do it. Which leads onto the problem of the type of competitor the 80 classes brought with them. A completely different clientele with completely different needs and demands, often a non horsey background and often kids. 
By introducing these classes, BE also put themselves into direct competition with unaffiliated venues.

Won’t be a popular view but you can pretty much date the beginning of the decline of BE with the introduction of the 80 level.


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## RachelFerd (7 March 2022)

It's hard to leave the cost thing aside. Eventing has always been expensive and always will be, but the cost of living at the moment is shooting upwards and the cost of fuel is madness. I will spend more on fuel getting to and from Oasby next weekend probably than the entry fee cost me. I am in a very lucky position of not having to worry too much about the cost, because I have no kids, no mortgage and secure work. Very aware that I am in the lucky few here - it is NOT normal. 

I think what might have gone critically wrong a few years ago is disagreement between BE and some aspirational event organisers who were denied the opportunity to run BE events at the time they wanted to - leading to series of Cotswold Cup. Structured unaffiliated series has led to more people being able to access good value BE-like eventing without affiliating. That makes sense on an individual level, but on a macro level it is not sustainable. Those with a passion for the sport need to pull together, not apart.

I also think that there's not been enough innovation to keep things fun for grassroots competitors who aren't on the path to Badminton GR. I think lots is being done in this space now, but hard to resolve quickly. Also not helped by some stuffy attitudes in the sport that things like having a restricted section for less experienced competitors is a form of 'dumbing down' (it's not...)


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## Roxylola (7 March 2022)

Changing the abandonment insurance has put me off
Cost has gone up significantly this year for anyone just wanting a couple of runs
Its been so wet it's hard to get out and train this early
Ballot dates are very early imo


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## TPO (7 March 2022)

I don't event but have friends and acquaintances that do and I'm on a few eventing FB pages. There are a lot of unhappy and disgruntled people out there.

People at a higher level, 2*+, appesr to be struggling to find enough events and the cost for them has gone right up I gather.

At all levels the removal of the abandonment insurance has upset a lot of people. 

I saw a post about one event that wasn't running because it hadn't received enough entries. Now we've had awful weather so it's understandable thst people might not have been able to get horses fit enough but not a great sign.

Also unaffiliated appears to be going from strength to strength. I've even seen posts from Scottish people looking to travel down south for the cotswold Cup.

Then you've got members in Scotland, way down south and possibly Wales who don't have access to as many events yet pay the same as people who could go to an event where weekend if they wanted.

The pathetic prizes if you are fortunate enough to win don't seem to help morale either after paying £££ to get there.


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## milliepops (7 March 2022)

Roxylola said:



			Changing the abandonment insurance has put me off
Cost has gone up significantly this year for anyone just wanting a couple of runs
Its been so wet it's hard to get out and train this early
Ballot dates are very early imo
		
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I barely follow the scene now but i saw Withington have cancelled this year citing the extremely high cost as a result of the loss of abandonment ins as a big factor.
That's an important date in the calendar for higher level combinations as they don't run below Novice and even when i was  out and about it was quite a smart event early in the season.  i think this decision will prove to be pretty catastrophic


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## RachelFerd (7 March 2022)

TPO said:



			People at a higher level, 2*+, appesr to be struggling to find enough events and the cost for them has gone right up I gather.
		
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So, I kind of tip into this category (event at 2*, but not above) - and it is a bit of a falsehood to say cost has gone right up. If you event at 3*+ you need the higher level of membership which is a one off £100 extra. Drop in the ocean in eventing terms. If you are a pro rider eventing a lot, the removal of abandonment insurance (which most of the pros were CLAMOURING for) will easily make that money back. The only people who are being hit in the pocket at all are those who are 1-horse amateurs eventing regularly at intermediate+ (and there are hardly any of these).

On struggling to find enough events - this IS real. But lets not forget - the UK has had the best eventing calendar IN THE WORLD for many years. It is where people choose to come and base themselves because there is a lot of top quality eventing and the journeys (compared to US or Aus) are very short.

That's what makes it feel especially worrying to me - this is the best country in the world to event in, and yet it feels like it could all come crumbling down.


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## TPO (7 March 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			So, I kind of tip into this category (event at 2*, but not above) - and it is a bit of a falsehood to say cost has gone right up. If you event at 3*+ you need the higher level of membership which is a one off £100 extra. Drop in the ocean in eventing terms. If you are a pro rider eventing a lot, the removal of abandonment insurance (which most of the pros were CLAMOURING for) will easily make that money back. The only people who are being hit in the pocket at all are those who are 1-horse amateurs eventing regularly at intermediate+ (and there are hardly any of these).

On struggling to find enough events - this IS real. But lets not forget - the UK has had the best eventing calendar IN THE WORLD for many years. It is where people choose to come and base themselves because there is a lot of top quality eventing and the journeys (compared to US or Aus) are very short.

That's what makes it feel especially worrying to me - this is the best country in the world to event in, and yet it feels like it could all come crumbling down.
		
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I think that was sort of their point. The people I know/know of are amateurs and it *is* a lot of money and they dont stand to make it back with their one horse.

The changes seem to benefit the pros but the others appear to feel almost forgotten and unseen? I'd imagine the category of higher level amateur is very small so are they the sacrificial lambs while grassroots and pros are offered other benefits?


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## RachelFerd (7 March 2022)

TPO said:



			I think that was sort of their point. The people I know/know of are amateurs and it *is* a lot of money and they dont stand to make it back with their one horse.

The changes seem to benefit the pros but the others appear to feel almost forgotten and unseen? I'd imagine the category of higher level amateur is very small so are they the sacrificial lambs while grassroots and pros are offered other benefits?
		
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Again, I think that's a little bit unfair. People were surveyed about abandonment insurance, and the overall response led to its removal. I suspect that people hadn't really thought about the trade offs that would be happening (like - no refunds!).

Helen has also said that they're going to be trying to work out a better position for the higher level amateurs (who are unintentional sacrificial lambs for the extra £100... which they too will make back from the removal of abandonment insurance, so long as they don't have lots of abandonments...) - but I also don't think they are sacrificial lambs, because this is one of the only places in the world where you can be a higher level amateur rider and go out and compete at 3/4* level, qualify and run at 5* and never have to leave the country to do so.


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## Orangehorse (7 March 2022)

I remember a letter to Horse and Hound years ago that said that it is the Also Rans that make the competition possible for the winners, and not to forget the grass roots.


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## Mule (7 March 2022)

Patterdale said:



			The introduction of 80 classes was where it all went wrong. It’s no longer aspirational because anyone can do it. Which leads onto the problem of the type of competitor the 80 classes brought with them. A completely different clientele with completely different needs and demands, often a non horsey background and often kids.
By introducing these classes, BE also put themselves into direct competition with unaffiliated venues.

Won’t be a popular view but you can pretty much date the beginning of the decline of BE with the introduction of the 80 level.
		
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I think 80cm was brought in to Eventing Ireland last year. I evented for a couple of years in Ireland at 90cm. I noticed, looking around at my group, our fitness and position was massively different (worse) than the riders at 100cm up. I can imagine 80cm riders would be similar


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## LEC (7 March 2022)

I think the gap between the elite and GR has widened. I actually see it with my friends now. Some have very good horses and as the years go on the chances of an awesome result FEI are less as the sport has become heavily professionalised and the investment from parents into their kids is insane.
Eventing has always been hard work, but there was a chance an average jo on an average horse could make it to Badminton to just compete. That’s practically impossible unless a freak. I have a tonne of friends who have all been 4/5* in the 90s and early 00s but now I don’t think they would manage it. Brexit has also made life harder, my dream was to go to France and compete in a 2*, that’s impossible now.
My plan this year is to mainly SJ and occasionally event which is pretty depressing. I don’t feel enough love for the sport to push myself into huge sacrifices to afford it and I am truly privileged as no mortgage, livery, steady job and no kids!
This might all change when I finally get the wheels back on the bus as so behind where I want to be due to no arena.
It’s a ridiculous elite sport but like they say in politics and economics when the middle class feel the pinch, then you are in serious trouble. This is what is happening now, the middle class is being hit all at the same time by huge cost increases everywhere and wage stagnation.


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## ycbm (7 March 2022)

Patterdale said:



			The introduction of 80 classes was where it all went wrong. It’s no longer aspirational because anyone can do it. Which leads onto the problem of the type of competitor the 80 classes brought with them. A completely different clientele with completely different needs and demands, often a non horsey background and often kids. 
By introducing these classes, BE also put themselves into direct competition with unaffiliated venues.

Won’t be a popular view but you can pretty much date the beginning of the decline of BE with the introduction of the 80 level.
		
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It was predicted by a lot of people at the time,  including me,  that BE 90, then 80, then including ponies and young children,  would be the death of BE eventing.  

It meant that many, many,  competitions moved to permanent equestrian centres,  removed the thrill of competing at country estates which weren't open to the public,  and then because it needed the venues BE were forced to drop the rule that no centre could use a BE course for anything but BE, which opened the door to unaffiliated events of the same standard but much lower cost than BE, and hey presto, we end up with what we've got today. 

It was totally predictable.  Why would anyone pay BE level fees to follow a 12 year old on their pony round a 2ft 8in course that can be hired any day of the week? 
.


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## sportsmansB (7 March 2022)

Mule said:



			I think 80cm was brought in to Eventing Ireland last year. I evented for a couple of years in Ireland at 90cm. I noticed, looking around at my group, our fitness and position was massively different (worse) than the riders at 100cm up. I can imagine 80cm riders would be similar
		
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Eventing Ireland only have a very few one off 80 events, it is not run as a matter of course at all. 90 is still the standard introductory level. 
Both horse and rider fitness at 90 could definitely be better - I'm sure that is the same BE 80 & 90.


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## RachelFerd (7 March 2022)

LEC said:



			I think the gap between the elite and GR has widened. I actually see it with my friends now. Some have very good horses and as the years go on the chances of an awesome result FEI are less as the sport has become heavily professionalised and the investment from parents into their kids is insane.
Eventing has always been hard work, but there was a chance an average jo on an average horse could make it to Badminton to just compete. That’s practically impossible unless a freak. I have a tonne of friends who have all been 4/5* in the 90s and early 00s but now I don’t think they would manage it. Brexit has also made life harder, my dream was to go to France and compete in a 2*, that’s impossible now.
My plan this year is to mainly SJ and occasionally event which is pretty depressing. I don’t feel enough love for the sport to push myself into huge sacrifices to afford it and I am truly privileged as no mortgage, livery, steady job and no kids!
This might all change when I finally get the wheels back on the bus as so behind where I want to be due to no arena.
It’s a ridiculous elite sport but like they say in politics and economics when the middle class feel the pinch, then you are in serious trouble. This is what is happening now, the middle class is being hit all at the same time by huge cost increases everywhere and wage stagnation.
		
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I think its still possible for people to get their 'average' superstars to Badminton/Burghley, even if not to be competitive. Manor Missile and Charlotte Brear come to mind jumping around Burghley in 2015 and 2016 - her first horse and h half Shire. Most recently jumped DC in the 4*S at Bramham in 2019 before retiring from the sport. COVID has just probably slowed people's progress at getting to 4/5* down. 

Lauren Innes is also out there as a full-time jobbing amateur about to go 5* - her horse is super smart and I'm sure wasn't bought for peanuts - but she does only have him plus a youngster.


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## Mule (7 March 2022)

sportsmansB said:



			Eventing Ireland only have a very few one off 80 events, it is not run as a matter of course at all. 90 is still the standard introductory level.
Both horse and rider fitness at 90 could definitely be better - I'm sure that is the same BE 80 & 90.
		
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I could understand if they brought it in fulltime though, because of the increase in revenue.


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## Squeak (7 March 2022)

BE has always been expensive but I'm not sure it's always been quite so proportionately expensive.  I certainly can't warrant the cost of it anymore.  I'd been planning on doing some UA's but with the increase in petrol I unfortunately don't think I can justify even that anymore.

I worry that things are only going to get worse for BE, with living costs rocketing it unfortunately is one of the first things that can go, especially for GR riders who can do local UA SJ for £12 a class.


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## Patterdale (7 March 2022)

ycbm said:



			It was predicted by a lot of people at the time,  including me,  that BE 90, then 80, then including ponies and young children,  would be the death of BE eventing. 

It meant that many, many,  competitions moved to permanent equestrian centres,  removed the thrill of competing at country estates which weren't open to the public,  and then because it needed the venues BE were forced to drop the rule that no centre could use a BE course for anything but BE, which opened the door to unaffiliated events of the same standard but much lower cost than BE, and hey presto, we end up with what we've got today.

It was totally predictable.  Why would anyone pay BE level fees to follow a 12 year old on their pony round a 2ft 8in course that can be hired any day of the week?
.
		
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Spot on.

But I’m not sure there’s any going back now. A lot of those lovely old courses are lost already and gone forever. 
A major misjudgement, that’s for sure.


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## Starzaan (7 March 2022)

One of my liveries is a VERY talented young rider, currently competing at 2* and on the world class development squad at just 17yrs. 
i helped her with a project for college where we worked out the cost of running one of her horses for a year. It costs their family £30k per year per horse. They have four.
That is ridiculous.

I am also stunned to see that I now have to pay to register as an owner. My horse is being competed by someone whilst I’m too injured to ride him, and I now have to pay £100 to register myself as an owner, otherwise he will be considered ‘rider owned’.

it’s all just got ridiculously expensive, and one can compete UA for much less, over the same tracks.


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## daffy44 (7 March 2022)

I havent evented for ages, so my experience is not relevant, but I used to teach one of those magical one horse amateurs who got to a high level.  She had a full time, non horsey office job, one horse, who she bought reasonably cheaply as an unbacked three yr old, backed him herself and together they were successful at 4* Blenheim, Hartpury etc, they were also on the Equine Pathway when the horse was younger.  This horse is older now and retired from competition, and the rider, dedicated and talented as she is, says she wont event again, she says too many of the eventing venues have gone, and she simply cant afford it anymore, its such a shame.


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## RachelFerd (7 March 2022)

Starzaan said:



			One of my liveries is a VERY talented young rider, currently competing at 2* and on the world class development squad at just 17yrs.
i helped her with a project for college where we worked out the cost of running one of her horses for a year. It costs their family £30k per year per horse. They have four.
That is ridiculous.

I am also stunned to see that I now have to pay to register as an owner. My horse is being competed by someone whilst I’m too injured to ride him, and I now have to pay £100 to register myself as an owner, otherwise he will be considered ‘rider owned’.

it’s all just got ridiculously expensive, and one can compete UA for much less, over the same tracks.
		
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You've always had to pay to register as an owner - that isn't new.

I saw your cost estimate before and that's whopping isn't it - but I'm also not surprised by it. I have done the sums on my two and whilst i'm not a big spender, I'm still spending only just under the UK average salary on keeping and competing my two.




Patterdale said:



			Spot on.

But I’m not sure there’s any going back now. A lot of those lovely old courses are lost already and gone forever.
A major misjudgement, that’s for sure.
		
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I'm not sure that we can blame the BE80 and BE90 crowed on killing the lovely old courses. I think a lot of estates are being managed differently due to intensifying pressures which mean that having a hobby activity of running a lovely bespoke horse trials just isn't an option any more. Correlation not necessarily causation.


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## Patterdale (7 March 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I'm not sure that we can blame the BE80 and BE90 crowed on killing the lovely old courses. I think a lot of estates are being managed differently due to intensifying pressures which mean that having a hobby activity of running a lovely bespoke horse trials just isn't an option any more. Correlation not necessarily causation.
		
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I think it is a big part of the reason actually. 
The grassroots venues taking so many entries away from the likes of Witton Castle for example led to reduced entries for them and thereby made the ‘decision’ to stop running almost inevitable.

Add to that that the new breed of grassroots 80/90 riders have a very different aim - lots just want to get round 80/90 forever. So the tougher, more challenging traditional tracks suffered because these riders didn’t see the point in doing a challenging 90 when you could just skip round Richmond with no intention of ever moving up a level.


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## Starzaan (7 March 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			You've always had to pay to register as an owner - that isn't new.

I saw your cost estimate before and that's whopping isn't it - but I'm also not surprised by it. I have done the sums on my two and whilst i'm not a big spender, I'm still spending only just under the UK average salary on keeping and competing my two.





I'm not sure that we can blame the BE80 and BE90 crowed on killing the lovely old courses. I think a lot of estates are being managed differently due to intensifying pressures which mean that having a hobby activity of running a lovely bespoke horse trials just isn't an option any more. Correlation not necessarily causation.
		
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I’m a little less cross now haha. I don’t remember ever having to pay to register as an owner before, and was very grumpy about it. You have made me much less grumpy if this is not a new thing. Haha!


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## RachelFerd (7 March 2022)

Patterdale said:



			I think it is a big part of the reason actually.
The grassroots venues taking so many entries away from the likes of Witton Castle for example led to reduced entries for them and thereby made the ‘decision’ to stop running almost inevitable.

Add to that that the new breed of grassroots 80/90 riders have a very different aim - lots just want to get round 80/90 forever. So the tougher, more challenging traditional tracks suffered because these riders didn’t see the point in doing a challenging 90 when you could just skip round Richmond with no intention of ever moving up a level.
		
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I don't know Witton well, because when it last ran I was based in the SE. I just don't see how a grassroots venue could be taking away entries from an event running N/I/A - I suspect there was a multitude of reasons, not a single place to point blame at. My experience of talking to grassroots riders is that they relish the chance to get to ride around the beautiful parkland venues and its one of the big attractions of becoming a member. It's just that quite a few of those big one-offs now also run an unaffiliated day (eg. Cholmondeley) - so no need to join.

I feel quite passionately that grassroots eventing should be part of the same organisation with a clear pathway to the higher levels, in the same way that BD riders can take a journey all the way from intro to grand prix - if they want to. But it is equally fine to stop and stay at the level you are comfortable at and enjoy. That applies to eventing and to dressage equally.  

I also think it is totally right that there are some venues which will be straightforward introductions at the level, and others where you will be challenged. I think we could be a bit better about ensuring that qualifying performances come at those higher-end difficulty venues - perhaps a 2-tier rating system. 

We've got to be realistic that the golden age of the English country house is long-gone.... eventing will suffer from that, but it isn't necessarily eventing's fault.


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## ycbm (7 March 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I just don't see how a grassroots venue could be taking away entries from an event running N/I/A
		
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If a Pro has an  80/90/100 horse and an N/I/A horse that they want to run the same weekend,  they'll go to the one where they can run both.  
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## Tiddlypom (7 March 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			My experience of talking to grassroots riders is that they relish the chance to get to ride around the beautiful parkland venues and its one of the big attractions of becoming a member. It's just that quite a few of those big one-offs now also run an unaffiliated day (eg. Cholmondeley) - so no need to join.
		
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I was just going to mention Cholmondeley too. Isn't it back to back weekends with the BE event first, followed by the UA, and both organised by Musketeer?

It's a fabulous setting.


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## RachelFerd (7 March 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			I was just going to mention Cholmondeley too. Isn't it back to back weekends with the BE event first followed by the UA, and both organised by Musketeer?

It's a fabulous setting.
		
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I think so, yep. And last year it felt especially cheeky, because it was the BE80/90/100 grassroots replacement for Badminton... and then the unaff ran over identical courses the weekend after


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## I'm Dun (7 March 2022)

Roxylola said:



			Changing the abandonment insurance has put me off
Cost has gone up significantly this year for anyone just wanting a couple of runs
Its been so wet it's hard to get out and train this early
Ballot dates are very early imo
		
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this. I planned to join this year as I think we should support BE. But the abandonment insurance, the cost of  few runs have meant I'm not going to and will go unaffiliated instead. I think the lower levels who prop up the higher levels financially are realising they don't get a good deal and are voting with their feet.


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## Ambers Echo (7 March 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I think so, yep. And last year it felt especially cheeky, because it was the BE80/90/100 grassroots replacement for Badminton... and then the unaff ran over identical courses the weekend after 

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And it’s a Brigante Cup qualifier this year. Which arguably makes it more attractive unaff than BE.


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## Roxylola (7 March 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			And it’s a Brigante Cup qualifier this year. Which arguably makes it more attractive unaff than BE.
		
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Think it was last year too. 
I think they did alter the course slightly but obviously fences are the same


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## ihatework (7 March 2022)

Well I own rather than ride now, but I love the sport. Having thought about this the primary appeal to me (other than the fact I love the discipline) are the lovely big locations you get to compete.

In years gone by when I was doing lowly 100’s then you could fairly easily access these large parkland / stately homes venues. 

These days it’s more limited until you get up the levels. Even then they are dwindling. I wouldn’t be involved in the sport if it were Astons day in day out (sorry Aston, you are incredible supporters of the sport!! We use you a lot for prep). I’m not, as an owner, prepared to pay for mediocre horses competing at run of the mill venues. It costs too much. I am however prepared to do it as a stepping stone to hopefully bigger things.


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## Ambers Echo (7 March 2022)

I know people talk about the glory days and say eventing is boring now but we have competed at some fantastic places over the past few years. Perhaps I don’t know what I’m missing, but it’s still a brilliant sport. And Oasby is oversubscribed and the wait lists are full so people are clearly still getting out.


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## LEC (7 March 2022)

The big issue with wonderful estate properties is that the owner has to have an interest otherwise having BE is just not profitable. My SIL owns Buckminster and you can see what lack of investment has done - it used to be a popular event and now it’s a has been. Having spent a bit of time at Buckminster over the years the parkland is outstanding and it could be wonderful but there is no interest in it particularly. The combination of constant refresh, good ground and bringing in people takes money. Much easier to have a concert, festival or go back to farming it.


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## millitiger (7 March 2022)

I really did want to rejoin BE this season after many years unaffiliated.

3 things now putting me off-
Loss of abandonment insurance. Yes, some events are getting their own, but hard to plan that into the season at the moment.
Complete mess and confusion of Area Festivals to qualify for Grassroots. Current set up is very confusing and means travelling further... mainly though  so confusing to work out!
Lastly, you cannot ignore current global situation, spiralling inflation and unknown future on everything linked to oil and grain pricing and availability.  I want to build a much bigger buffer than I currently have in my savings pot.

Eventing, particularly affiliated,  is going to have to take a back seat.


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## GinaGeo (7 March 2022)

I love Eventing. It’s where my heart lies. Nothing quite compares to the excitement of pulling into a beautiful country park, parking next to an Olympian and galloping across hallowed turf.

We never did BE to any dizzy heights, but did dream of it. I was only able to enjoy it because I was fortunate to have family backing, mum enjoyed the day out and supported my entries through Uni. Dad kept the car and trailer on the road and when we were traveling further, mum used a small inheritance to buy a little lorry. We had a lot of fun, and we aimed for the likes of Cholmondely Castle and Allerton Park. Places you wouldn’t otherwise be able to ride.

It felt special, and I think we still have all the programmes with our name in. 


But life moves on. Buying a house at the moment, trying to get another young horse educated. Keep a career going. Maintain a semblance of a social life (aka. Not lose touch with good friends) and see my partner. 

I really really want to do BE again. But this year if we can event, it’ll be unaffiliated. I really won’t be able to justify the additional cost of competing BE. I’m not sure I’ll be able to justify Eventing full stop, but might sneak a couple of events through the budget to give me goals. Goals keep me motivated.


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## RachelFerd (7 March 2022)

I'm Dun said:



			this. I planned to join this year as I think we should support BE. But the abandonment insurance, the cost of  few runs have meant I'm not going to and will go unaffiliated instead. I think the lower levels who prop up the higher levels financially are realising they don't get a good deal and are voting with their feet.
		
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Again - this doesn't really make sense. Removal of abandonment insurance has made each entry 15% cheaper. Many events have now sourced their own insurance - so you're getting a significantly cheaper deal if you enter an event using that.


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## Michen (7 March 2022)

I used to do a couple of BE events a year mixed in with unaff. I'd go BE if it was an event I particularly liked, or worked dates wise.

Won't be bothering now as to do the odd one or two is so expensive under the new system, unless you do 4 plus.


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## EventingMum (7 March 2022)

I think the incentive to move up the levels from grassroots has gone. It used to be if you won or were highly placed (I can't remember the exact rules) you couldn't keep.competing at that level but now you can stay at the lower levels for as long as you like as long as you don't gain points (not foundation points) unless there are open sections. This used to encourage people to move up a level but when that stopped happening many events stopped having higher level classes. In Scotland it became so difficult to compete at Intermediate and above without going south of the border all the time which really added to costs for fuel.


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## Patterdale (7 March 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			Again - this doesn't really make sense. Removal of abandonment insurance has made each entry 15% cheaper. Many events have now sourced their own insurance - so you're getting a significantly cheaper deal if you enter an event using that.
		
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Agree - I really don’t understand why so many people are moaning about the abandonment insurance. Everyone was badgering BE to get rid of it to make entries cheaper, so they did and now they’re getting endless stick for it.

I think lots of people get confused about abandonment. It’s actually quite rare. In my previous years of competing I only had events abandon twice.
Lots seem to be confusing abandonment with cancellation.


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## iknowmyvalue (7 March 2022)

Patterdale said:



			Agree - I really don’t understand why so many people are moaning about the abandonment insurance. Everyone was badgering BE to get rid of it to make entries cheaper, so they did and now they’re getting endless stick for it.

I think lots of people get confused about abandonment. It’s actually quite rare. In my previous years of competing I only had events abandon twice.
Lots seem to be confusing abandonment with cancellation.
		
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I mostly agree with this. I do think that they’ll have to be careful with which venues run early/late in the season though. which will possibly hit certain areas harder than others as may be less suitable venues/higher risk of abandonment?

I competed (not BE, but full ODE) at Epworth yesterday and the ground was pretty perfect even with the rain we had last week. Plus Dr/SJ are on a surface which is better for those events IMO.

I also saw what Aston did with their abandonment at the weekend (40% refund and chance to do a CT/Arena Eventing style comp) which I would have been happy with as a replacement.


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## spacefaer (7 March 2022)

A lot of the lovely parkland events of yesteryear are owned by the National Trust.  Very sadly, events are not sufficiently profitable compared to other, less capital and labour intensive enterprises. 

I used to event, back in the day when it was fun. I competed to (the old) 2* and loved the proper long format 3DEs. I also produced horses that went on to 4*. 
The sport has changed fundamentally and those currently involved either embrace the changes or go u/a which appears to be more similar to the old days. 

Every so often, I get a rush of blood to the head and think I might want to do an event or two on a nice young horse, then I look at the cost and come back down to earth. There's no way i could justify the expense on a single day of competition.


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## I'm Dun (8 March 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			Again - this doesn't really make sense. Removal of abandonment insurance has made each entry 15% cheaper. Many events have now sourced their own insurance - so you're getting a significantly cheaper deal if you enter an event using that.
		
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Entry might be cheaper but it wont matter if its abandoned. I've not seen many saying they have sorted insurance but admittedly haven't looked hard as I've had life stuff going on. The cost is a huge factor though. If you only run 3 times its not viable when unaffiliated is just so much cheaper. Might be different if I was any good but I'm just a bog standard middle aged woman with a nice horse who wants to do a few runs a year.


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## Michen (8 March 2022)

iknowmyvalue said:



			I mostly agree with this. I do think that they’ll have to be careful with which venues run early/late in the season though. which will possibly hit certain areas harder than others as may be less suitable venues/higher risk of abandonment?

I competed (not BE, but full ODE) at Epworth yesterday and the ground was pretty perfect even with the rain we had last week. Plus Dr/SJ are on a surface which is better for those events IMO.

I also saw what Aston did with their abandonment at the weekend (40% refund and chance to do a CT/Arena Eventing style comp) which I would have been happy with as a replacement.
		
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Very few places would be able to do what Aston did. They only can because they have so many surfaced arenas.


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## Ambers Echo (8 March 2022)

Patterdale said:



			I think lots of people get confused about abandonment. It’s actually quite rare. In my previous years of competing I only had events abandon twice.
Lots seem to be confusing abandonment with cancellation.
		
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I preferred early season and late season missing out the hard ground in the middle. I’ve had abandonments. I only evented 4/5 times a year when I had Amber to ride. Once after dressage. Once the night before. I’m in the NW. perhaps I’ve just been unlucky. If you run multiple times you’ll end up better off but psychologically the risk of entering what might be your only event with no protection feels difficult. But for me the clincher wasn’t cost but the lack of an interesting series to target which I’m doing with the Brigante Cup this year.


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## Tiddlypom (8 March 2022)

Is it abandonment or cancellation if the event is called off before it starts? There's been a few of those here in the last year or two due to waterlogged ground.

Is it abandonment when the event is stopped part way through the day?


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## Patterdale (8 March 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			But for me the clincher wasn’t cost but the lack of an interesting series to target which I’m doing with the Brigante Cup this year.
		
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This I totally agree with.

The current grassroots championship system is so confusing, messy and hard to understand that it is completely off-putting.


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## Ambers Echo (8 March 2022)

My ‘night before’ abandonment was the Saturday night after a day of competing on Saturday - they abandoned Sunday. Not sure if it’s the night before anything starts.


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## Roxylola (8 March 2022)

Saying its 15% cheaper is not taking in to account the price rise this year, and the membership changes. In reality, it is a lot more expensive this year for me than last year. I have a competing budget, I understand it's more cost effective to do more but my budget would be gone within 3 events. I've entered 3 BE events, 1 of which abandoned the night before so that's a 33% chance of losing my entry fee. So I can afford 3 entries but may not compete all 3 times and won't get anything back potentially.


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## TheMule (8 March 2022)

I havent really evented much since my last good horse retired and I don’t feel particularly inspired to start up again. Every single venue within 2 hours travelling time of me, bar 1, offers an unaffiliated alternative with the same standard SJ and xc courses, a photographer, a video company filming rounds etc. I'm not ambitious (or brave) anymore so I'll probably be quite happy playing around up to 100 level unaff and then can reassess if I feel a strong desire to go novice. 
I'm not good enough on the flat to challenge for a grassroots place but I do like a good double clear!


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## Red-1 (8 March 2022)

It is 2014 since I last competed, I have a nice youngster who will probably be ready next spring. 

I always intended to do BE, but looking at it as it stands, I may do the unaffiliated. It is simply less bother! I won't have to read so many rules and regs, get registered etc. 

I am nearer 60 than 50, my 4 rising 5 horse is not the athletic beast I preferred in my youth, and we just want to have fun. If we do well, I may do a few BE events, but it isn't the be all and end all it was. 

I started eventing when Pre Novice was a new thing, and decried as the end of proper eventing. I think it was up to 1.05 then. BE was something to aspire to, people asked if you rode BE, and if you did, it meant something. 

I think BE has tried to be all things to all people, and that hasn't worked. 

I also think that climate change has made ground conditions less reliable. 

Also, no abandonment refund? That doesn't seem like a good plan! It is disappointing enough, without losing all your money too. You hand over your substantial fee, trusting that someone has done their homework/groundwork/prep well enough.


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## ycbm (8 March 2022)

Red-1 said:



			I also think that climate change has made ground conditions less reliable.
		
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It has,  but the season is also now very extended.  When I was eventing it was very difficult to get any run in March within 2 hours and difficult to get any in October.   I think there was one,  at Rodbaston.  Now the calendar is much more full in March and October and the abandonment insurance has had to be dropped as it got too expensive.  I can't help connecting the two a bit.  
.


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## Ambers Echo (8 March 2022)

Not being defensive - genuinely curious. I keep reading that BE90 and BE80T is or will be 'the death of eventing'. Why?

The various reasons put forward seem to be:

_Lower levels mean that BE doesn't 'mean anything' anymore._ But no-one inside the world of eventing is going to be confused about what a Novice  'means' compared with a BE80T and no-one outside of eventing knows what any of it means. Besides which why does anyone care? I find it hard to believe that people spend £XXXXXXXXs on a novice horse plus running costs just so they get to say they have done something 'meaningful'.

_Now 'anyone can do it' _Again  see above. Why does the novice eventer on her talented sport horse care what Joe Bloggs on his hairy cob is doing? But also surely the more accessible the sport is the more people try it, fall in love with it and aspire to do more. I got into eventing via unaff 70s on a fell pony. I wanted more so fell pony was swapped for Amber and I'm hooked.

_People don't aspire to move up the levels._ So what? Many people don't have the horse power to go higher than BE90 anyway. A BE100/N horse is well into 5 figures. But what is wreing with a thriving grassroots scene? The last season I did was BE90 level on Amber and every event was full and wailisted. Last year Katie did U18s and again every event was full and waitlisted. Thpse classes bring money and people into sport. Why is that bad?

I personally think BE may be struggling because of unaff events providing a much cheaper alternative while offering much the same - or exacty the same event. And while offerng a better competition structure. Plus the cost of living crisis which is no-ones fault. Unaff eventing is very problematic and I am part of that because I have chosen that route myself this season. But it is a no brainer personally - cheaper, better protected and better comp structure. So BE needs to make BE more attractive, not blame riders for opting to do other things. 

I am not sure what the answer to that is apart from obviously sorting out the mess that is Badmionton GR and offering more options for those for who Badminiton is unrealistic. Regional leagues etc. But then people think offering too many options is also killing the sport though I am not sure why.

Can someone please explain why attracting more people and making a sport more accessible is killing off the sport? And is there actually any evidence of that?


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## ycbm (8 March 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Can someone please explain why attracting more people and making a sport more accessible is killing off the sport? And is there actually any evidence of that?
		
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As long as you are talking about BE and not eventing in general,  you answer your own question here.  Eventing as a whole will only die back, hopefully temporarily, because people can't afford to compete at all. 



Ambers Echo said:



			I personally think BE may be struggling because of unaff events providing a much cheaper alternative while offering much the same - or exacty the same event.
		
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BE was always going to lose out to unaffiliated as soon as they removed the rule that said no BE course could be used for any other purpose.  And they had to do that to get venues for the lower levels that they wanted because that's where the volume and the money was.  

The vast majority of  competitors at 80/90/100,  ime, aren't trying to qualify for anything.  The pros are just trying to make the horse worth more with some reasonable scores and sell it, or take it up another level,  and the amateurs just want a great day out with a gallop round the cross country to top it off.  The popularity of day tickets proves this,  I think. 

So if you don't want to qualify,  and you can do the same event for a lot less money,  why wouldn't you? And that is hitting BE in the pockets that it filled, for a while,  by diving down that dark rabbit hole in pursuit of the money that lower level competitions would bring in.  
.


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## ester (8 March 2022)

It's interesting because at the time I remember it being thought that bringing in 80 was mostly to bring in more money


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## Squeak (8 March 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			I personally think BE may be struggling because of unaff events providing a much cheaper alternative while offering much the same - or exacty the same event. And while offerng a better competition structure. Plus the cost of living crisis which is no-ones fault. Unaff eventing is very problematic and I am part of that because I have chosen that route myself this season. But it is a no brainer personally - cheaper, better protected and better comp structure. So BE needs to make BE more attractive, not blame riders for opting to do other things.
		
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I think you've hit the nail on the head here.  Why would GR riders pay extra money for the same events?  And unfortunately this is exacerbated by the cost of living crisis.  Maybe other years the new Pay as you go membership would have worked but with the price of petrol etc suddenly even 3 or 4 events is more than riders can commit to.  BE need to have something to make it more attractive than the UA's to justify the extra costs.


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## RachelFerd (8 March 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Not being defensive - genuinely curious. I keep reading that BE90 and BE80T is or will be 'the death of eventing'. Why?

The various reasons put forward seem to be:

_Lower levels mean that BE doesn't 'mean anything' anymore._ But no-one inside the world of eventing is going to be confused about what a Novice  'means' compared with a BE80T and no-one outside of eventing knows what any of it means. Besides which why does anyone care? I find it hard to believe that people spend £XXXXXXXXs on a novice horse plus running costs just so they get to say they have done something 'meaningful'.

_Now 'anyone can do it' _Again  see above. Why does the novice eventer on her talented sport horse care what Joe Bloggs on his hairy cob is doing? But also surely the more accessible the sport is the more people try it, fall in love with it and aspire to do more. I got into eventing via unaff 70s on a fell pony. I wanted more so fell pony was swapped for Amber and I'm hooked.

_People don't aspire to move up the levels._ So what? Many people don't have the horse power to go higher than BE90 anyway. A BE100/N horse is well into 5 figures. But what is wreing with a thriving grassroots scene? The last season I did was BE90 level on Amber and every event was full and wailisted. Last year Katie did U18s and again every event was full and waitlisted. Thpse classes bring money and people into sport. Why is that bad?

I personally think BE may be struggling because of unaff events providing a much cheaper alternative while offering much the same - or exacty the same event. And while offerng a better competition structure. Plus the cost of living crisis which is no-ones fault. Unaff eventing is very problematic and I am part of that because I have chosen that route myself this season. But it is a no brainer personally - cheaper, better protected and better comp structure. So BE needs to make BE more attractive, not blame riders for opting to do other things.

I am not sure what the answer to that is apart from obviously sorting out the mess that is Badmionton GR and offering more options for those for who Badminiton is unrealistic. Regional leagues etc. But then people think offering too many options is also killing the sport though I am not sure why.

Can someone please explain why attracting more people and making a sport more accessible is killing off the sport? And is there actually any evidence of that?
		
Click to expand...

I agree with you on nearly all of this (particularly that BE should be inclusive and represent the sport at all levels) - the only point that I'd like to understand better is that the unaffiliated events are offering a better 'competition structure'? Is it literally just that there's a series? 

Because in terms of the 'structure' of the competition - lots of things are missing - officials, rider reps, MERs, safeguarding policies.... none of which is attractive to you or me from a 'nice day out' perspective I get that!

So if its the series structure that you and others like, I don't understand why regional leagues can't be established under the BE banner. 

My take on it would be:

1. drop the registration costs altogether for 80 level, 
2. bring 70 level under that umbrella too - make 70-80 a BE free intro level - and make it FUN and informal (and v much about getting people into the sport safely)
3. let venues put these competitions on in the same way they have been, but bring them under the BE umbrella by name
4. Add in sliding scale membership for 90s and 100s 
5. Run a league series for each area - utilising pre-existing Brigante cup for the North, Cotswold Cup for Central and west mids, and SEEL for the South East (add in SW, Scotland, East Mids, Wales)
6. Introduce the restricted sections for people to use if they want to
7. bring back the training and camps that helped to foster friendships and community
8. run more fun leagues - veteran leagues, adults on ponies, native breeds, cobs, thoroughbreds (well we sort of have this already)
9. do more to directly link riding club and pony club into BE - join-up on running events, make MERs count across the piece

BE should NOT be trying to be exclusive or aspirational, or limit its activities to the exclusive higher levels. That is NOT what any sporting body should be doing - that's a backwards looking and elitist viewpoint. 

Look to other sports

[caveat, i know nothing about football, but...] the FA is responsible for football at all levels - youth, women's, disability football, amateur adult football (including walking football for older people) AND the top end of the premier league or whatever their leagues are called

England Athletics covers every level of running activities - if I run in my local 5K race, it is england athletics affiliated. But they also looka after the top end of hte sport...


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## LEC (8 March 2022)

ester said:



			It's interesting because at the time I remember it being thought that bringing in 80 was mostly to bring in more money
		
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It was to get lottery funding


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## teapot (8 March 2022)

Not sure whether this is BE’s fault per se but one wonders if those who event are now far quicker to not enter/withdraw at the slightest sign of rain/mud/firm/too firm/not firm enough/grass covering too short/grass covering too long/on a surface/not on a surface/spooky sj/spooky dressage etc etc

There’s so much information about these days that I wonder if people are making too much of a informed decision (rightly or wrongly) rather than getting on with it (to a point).


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## MissTyc (8 March 2022)

ycbm said:



			The vast majority of  competitors at 80/90/100,  ime, aren't trying to qualify for anything.  The pros are just trying to make the horse worth more with some reasonable scores and sell it, or take it up another level,  and the amateurs just want a great day out with a gallop round the cross country to top it off.  The popularity of day tickets proves this,  I think.

So if you don't want to qualify,  and you can do the same event for a lot less money,  why wouldn't you? And that is hitting BE in the pockets that it filled, for a while,  by diving down that dark rabbit hole in pursuit of the money that lower level competitions would bring in. 
.
		
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This is exactly my situation. I haven't affiliated in over a decade as I've had more fun and budget at unaffiliated. Max 100 for my own nerves these days irrespective of the horse and why shouldn't I have fun flying around at speed on a well-designed safe course within an hour's drive from my yard? With the cost of Diesel going up and up and I probably will only be doing local for the foreseeable anyway.


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## Ambers Echo (8 March 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I agree with you on nearly all of this (particularly that BE should be inclusive and represent the sport at all levels) - the only point that I'd like to understand better is that the unaffiliated events are offering a better 'competition structure'? Is it literally just that there's a series?

Because in terms of the 'structure' of the competition - lots of things are missing - officials, rider reps, MERs, safeguarding policies.... none of which is attractive to you or me from a 'nice day out' perspective I get that!

So if its the series structure that you and others like, I don't understand why regional leagues can't be established under the BE banner.

My take on it would be:

1. drop the registration costs altogether for 80 level,
2. bring 70 level under that umbrella too - make 70-80 a BE free intro level - and make it FUN and informal (and v much about getting people into the sport safely)
3. let venues put these competitions on in the same way they have been, but bring them under the BE umbrella by name
4. Add in sliding scale membership for 90s and 100s
5. Run a league series for each area - utilising pre-existing Brigante cup for the North, Cotswold Cup for Central and west mids, and SEEL for the South East (add in SW, Scotland, East Mids, Wales)
6. Introduce the restricted sections for people to use if they want to
7. bring back the training and camps that helped to foster friendships and community
8. run more fun leagues - veteran leagues, adults on ponies, native breeds, cobs, thoroughbreds (well we sort of have this already)
9. do more to directly link riding club and pony club into BE - join-up on running events, make MERs count across the piece

BE should NOT be trying to be exclusive or aspirational, or limit its activities to the exclusive higher levels. That is NOT what any sporting body should be doing - that's a backwards looking and elitist viewpoint.

Look to other sports

[caveat, i know nothing about football, but...] the FA is responsible for football at all levels - youth, women's, disability football, amateur adult football (including walking football for older people) AND the top end of the premier league or whatever their leagues are called

England Athletics covers every level of running activities - if I run in my local 5K race, it is england athletics affiliated. But they also looka after the top end of hte sport...
		
Click to expand...

Yes they should do all that!

By competition structure, maybe I just am not very good at navigating the BE website but it is very hard to work out what is going on and how to qualify for it.

Initially I just wanted to event and had no interst in a league or anything. So I started at 80T in 2018, BE90 in 2019 and intended to start at BE100 in 2020 but Amber went lame. That was all fab. JUst doing it atall was a dreeam come true so I wasn't  fussed about qualifying or leagues.

But now I am starting again on a new horse and  I went on the BE website and FB pages to see what I could do that mimicked Katie's U18s experiences: That was loads of fun - choosing qualifying events, needing to get her DCs and aiming to make it to Bishop Burton for a chance to ride a much longer championship course with the long arena for dressage and the SJ on the last day. It was a realistic but inspiring goal. 

But when I looked at what is around, I can't make head nor tail of Badminton GR. The qualifying period seems very long and it feels out of reach anyway, even if I could work out what was going on. The 2 DCs for an Area Festival is a good goal but almost too easy! So the Brigante Cup offers exactly what I was looking for really. If BE did something simialr I would do that instead because I do understand about the hidden costs and I do want to support BE. But they are not making it very easy for me to do so just now, when compared to the unaff offer.


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## RachelFerd (8 March 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Yes they should do all that!

By competition structure, maybe I just am not very good at navigating the BE website but it is very hard to work out what is going on and how to qualify for it.

Initially I just wanted to event and had no interst in a league or anything. So I started at 80T in 2018, BE90 in 2019 and intended to start at BE100 in 2020 but Amber went lame. That was all fab. JUst doing it atall was a dreeam come true so I wasn't  fussed about qualifying or leagues.

But now I am starting again on a new horse and  I went on the BE website and FB pages to see what I could do that mimicked Katie's U18s experiences: That was loads of fun - choosing qualifying events, needing to get her DCs and aiming to make it to Bishop Burton for a chance to ride a much longer championship course with the long arena for dressage and the SJ on the last day. It was a realistic but inspiring goal.

But when I looked at what is around, I can't make head nor tail of Badminton GR. The qualifying period seems very long and it feels out of reach anyway, even if I could work out what was going on. The 2 DCs for an Area Festival is a good goal but almost too easy! So the Brigante Cup offers exactly what I was looking for really. If BE did something simialr I would do that instead because I do understand about the hidden costs and I do want to support BE. But they are not making it very easy for me to do so just now, when compared to the unaff offer.
		
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I think Badminton GR is such a cursed set-up. The timing makes no sense whatsoever as a championship, BUT if you took GR away from Badminton there would be an outcry as so many people aim to get there. So for BE its damned if you do and damned if you don't. The appeal of riding at Badminton is probably keeping a lot of people as members. But if its also the thing putting you off (because having a qualification process that takes longer than a year is madness...) then its also bad. It would make so much more sense to run it all at an event like Kelsall in September for example - very unlikely to have weather-related cancellation, amazing facilities, has the size and scope to put on really impressive tracks and host all of the extra stuff that would add to a championship experience... BUT people want to go to Badminton.


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## ester (8 March 2022)

Did it go elsewhere before it went to badminton or did it not exist at all?


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## RachelFerd (8 March 2022)

ester said:



			Did it go elsewhere before it went to badminton or did it not exist at all?
		
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It was at Aston le Walls and no-one was remotely interested in it as far as I can work out!!

For what it's worth - here's my made-up way this would work:

1 March - 30 June - 4 month initial qualification period - at BE80/90/100 level - qualify by getting 3x double clears, OR 1x top 10% placing
July & August - area festivals - with a better geographical spread - you can only compete at 1, top 20% qualify
September - championships - at Blenheim to run alongside a 'big' event, or Cornbury for big event feel... or Kelsall for something standalone but with potential to be impressive


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## Ambers Echo (8 March 2022)

Just another issue - I am not IT savvy, but nor am I especially thick. I have found entering BE events online utterly, utterly, utterly infuriating! The different memberships and tickets and validation and whatever else. And some events having a different entry process. And things not working. I must have rung the office 10 times. Luckily they are lovely and very patient! Youth Eventing was even worse - I was in a circular loop from The Youth Eventing Home page, to the 'Find Out More Page' to the Events page which took you back to the Youth Eventing home page. There was no list of qualifying events for each region either. I had to get that from the regional coordinator.

And last year having just about worked out how to enter, the whole printing out numbers at home was impenetrable too. Even after I finally found out you needed to go to Eventing Scores to print them, I still could not see where on the site - anywhere - it told you to do that. And there was no icon on Eventing Scores either saying NUMBER PRINTING. You are just meant to somehow know.

So the first thing they could do is ditch their entire wretched site and start all over again from scratch!


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## TPO (8 March 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Just another issue - I am not IT savvy, but nor am I especially thick. I have found entering BE events online utterly, utterly, utterly infuriating! The different memberships and tickets and validation and whatever else. And some events having a different entry process. And things not working. I must have rung the office 10 times. Luckily they are lovely and very patient! Youth Eventing was even worse - I was in a circular loop from The Youth Eventing Home page, to the 'Find Out More Page' to the Events page which took you back to the Youth Eventing home page. There was no list of qualifying events for each region either. I had to get that from the regional coordinator.

And last year having just about worked out how to enter, the whole printing out numbers at home was impenetrable too. Even after I finally found out you needed to go to Eventing Scores to print them, I still could not see where on the site - anywhere - it told you to do that. And there was no icon on Eventing Scores either saying NUMBER PRINTING. You are just meant to somehow know.

So the first thing they could do is ditch their entire wretched site and start all over again from scratch!
		
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More than a few people have similar complaints and even more so considering the amount of money wasted, sorry, spent on the revamp 😬


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## Roxylola (8 March 2022)

I'm pretty sure they've had extra tickets off me due to the online entry adding for horse and rider even when you only need one. I think it seems very unnecessarily complicated


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## Ambers Echo (8 March 2022)

TPO said:



			More than a few people have similar complaints and even more so considering the amount of money wasted, sorry, spent on the revamp 😬
		
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Honestly it drives me mad. It smacks of arrogance: "We can have a sh1t site because people have to somehow find a way to enter".

There are plenty of really good commercial sites out there. They HAVE to be good because people won't shop with rubbish sites if they have a choice about it. People know how to to build flexible, user friendly sites! Employ one of them to do it!!


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## RachelFerd (8 March 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Just another issue - I am not IT savvy, but nor am I especially thick. I have found entering BE events online utterly, utterly, utterly infuriating! The different memberships and tickets and validation and whatever else. And some events having a different entry process. And things not working. I must have rung the office 10 times. Luckily they are lovely and very patient! Youth Eventing was even worse - I was in a circular loop from The Youth Eventing Home page, to the 'Find Out More Page' to the Events page which took you back to the Youth Eventing home page. There was no list of qualifying events for each region either. I had to get that from the regional coordinator.

And last year having just about worked out how to enter, the whole printing out numbers at home was impenetrable too. Even after I finally found out you needed to go to Eventing Scores to print them, I still could not see where on the site - anywhere - it told you to do that. And there was no icon on Eventing Scores either saying NUMBER PRINTING. You are just meant to somehow know.

So the first thing they could do is ditch their entire wretched site and start all over again from scratch!
		
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I'm not an IT genius, but I managed to successfully enter a BE event whilst using a mobile phone, quite tipsy, in the toilets at an italian mountainside refugio because I realised I was about to miss a ballot date... it still only took 5 minutes.


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## Ambers Echo (8 March 2022)

Lucky you! Once you are a full member and your horse is validated and you are entering for yourself it's not too bad. Trying to enter on behalf of an U18 yo is a different matter. It is totally non intuitive. Every time I come back to the site I have to re-remember (or ring the office yet again) because it is not remotely clear how to do it. Or trying to validate a new horse, or trying to enter on a different type of membership...... Nightmare.


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## Ambers Echo (8 March 2022)

Or maybe I am just very very stupid


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## LEC (8 March 2022)

Badminton was a game changer for the 90/100 lot who are eligible. Top 20% at Bicton 3 day also qualify.
The current system in theory is fine as regional finals was messy, but at least at right time of year. This years finals are a mess starting in may!! Corinthian cup works nicely with its Q process.
I don’t get the sentiment about not opening the sport up. Every sport needs a strong pyramid. The standards of riding I think are on the whole better than they used to be and there is the odd bit of horrendous looking riding but it’s rare. Even unaff I thought the standard was pretty good and I was at 90 and 100 last year.


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## RachelFerd (8 March 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Lucky you! Once you are a full member and your horse is validated and you are entering for yourself it's not too bad. Trying to enter on behalf of an U18 yo is a different matter. It is totally non intuitive. Every time I come back to the site I have to re-remember (or ring the office yet again) because it is not remotely clear how to do it. Or trying to validate a new horse, or trying to enter on a different type of membership...... Nightmare.
		
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That does sound awful. It just seems like a few tweaks to the system could resolve it - the way people talk about it (or indeed, about the new Horse Monkey) its like its the worst thing ever - when really, for standard entries at least, it is pretty much OK. If you want to see a truly godawful chocolate fireguard of a system, try the HR or recruitment systems I have to battle with at work...


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## ester (8 March 2022)

ALW is kind of the opposite on the scale of interesting places to hold a championship compared to badminton. 🤣


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## ester (8 March 2022)

TPO said:



			More than a few people have similar complaints and even more so considering the amount of money wasted, sorry, spent on the revamp 😬
		
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They were advertising for a new IT manager last week


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## EventingMum (8 March 2022)

My take on opening the sport up is that venues can only have a certain number of competitors running and quite a few stopped running higher classes in favour of running extra sections at the lower levels, negating the need for the higher level courses and this saving money which was hard for those trying to compete at those higher levels as we had to travel further. I agree it's great to encourage everyone to take part in a fabulous sport but the one or two horse amateur competing a higher levels did seemed disadvantaged.


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## Orangehorse (9 March 2022)

GinaGeo said:



			I love Eventing. It’s where my heart lies. Nothing quite compares to the excitement of pulling into a beautiful country park, parking next to an Olympian and galloping across hallowed turf.

We never did BE to any dizzy heights, but did dream of it. I was only able to enjoy it because I was fortunate to have family backing, mum enjoyed the day out and supported my entries through Uni. Dad kept the car and trailer on the road and when we were traveling further, mum used a small inheritance to buy a little lorry. We had a lot of fun, and we aimed for the likes of Cholmondely Castle and Allerton Park. Places you wouldn’t otherwise be able to ride.

It felt special, and I think we still have all the programmes with our name in.


But life moves on. Buying a house at the moment, trying to get another young horse educated. Keep a career going. Maintain a semblance of a social life (aka. Not lose touch with good friends) and see my partner.

I really really want to do BE again. But this year if we can event, it’ll be unaffiliated. I really won’t be able to justify the additional cost of competing BE. I’m not sure I’ll be able to justify Eventing full stop, but might sneak a couple of events through the budget to give me goals. Goals keep me motivated.
		
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That is a perfect description of why people love eventing.


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## billylula (9 March 2022)

Mule said:



			I think 80cm was brought in to Eventing Ireland last year. I evented for a couple of years in Ireland at 90cm. I noticed, looking around at my group, our fitness and position was massively different (worse) than the riders at 100cm up. I can imagine 80cm riders would be similar
		
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I fence judge for BE and I have to say the BE80 classes are usually absolutely fine - of course there is the odd one who can't ride (!) but in my experience its the top pros evening young horses who are the most 'amateurish' - missing out fences etc because they don't walk the course!


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## billylula (9 March 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			You've always had to pay to register as an owner - that isn't new.

I saw your cost estimate before and that's whopping isn't it - but I'm also not surprised by it. I have done the sums on my two and whilst i'm not a big spender, I'm still spending only just under the UK average salary on keeping and competing my two.





I'm not sure that we can blame the BE80 and BE90 crowed on killing the lovely old courses. I think a lot of estates are being managed differently due to intensifying pressures which mean that having a hobby activity of running a lovely bespoke horse trials just isn't an option any more. Correlation not necessarily causation.
		
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Aldon went for this reason - never ran anything under BE100 and was always very well attended - but the land was prized by developers and sold off.


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## billylula (9 March 2022)

The ballotting system at BE is also a pain - at least with Unaff if you enter in time you can rely on actually going that weekend - we got balloted out a few times and its a PITA to then find anything with spaces that weekend, not withstanding having to wait for refunds.


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## showjumpingharry (9 March 2022)

When I can spend £80 on a PC/RC membership, get regular training, compete up to BE novice, medium/elem dressage and newcomers SJ (well the equivalents anyway) plus excellent championship opportunities and leagues then you look at the cost of BE then the appeal of going affiliated very quickly goes. Now I'm no longer able to do U18 theres next to no training/teams/league things BE and everything is miles away from me. I doubt I'll have the balls or a horse with the ability to go beyond that any time soon so for me it makes no financial sense to spend £100+ to jump round a course that I can go round unaff...


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## Lexi_ (9 March 2022)

billylula said:



			I fence judge for BE and I have to say the BE80 classes are usually absolutely fine - of course there is the odd one who can't ride (!) but in my experience its the top pros evening young horses who are the most 'amateurish' - missing out fences etc because they don't walk the course!
		
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And I’d say mostly the absolute opposite! I always come away from FJing an 80 class wanting to put everyone’s stirrups up and send them to practice a proper XC canter around a big field and ride forwards to a fence.


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## LEC (10 March 2022)

I have been thinking about this subject overnight and I think the big issue is that adults want what the U18s get. The U18s effectively have double the value in their membership to adults. They can participate in all the adults stuff and then they get the specialist classes just for them where they are with all their mates who they have met through the training locally as so much organised including camps. Finally this is topped off with a U18 champs which is teams. The buy in from U18s is going to be twice that as so much more motivation to be part of BE with distinctive goals and friends all doing it. I don’t feel any of that towards BE. It’s just a mechanism I don’t feel that engaged with. There is no emotional buy in or loyalty from me with whether I go BE or unaff. 

Yet, every year I turn up to RC qualifiers because I want to compete with my mates and love being in a team. The most fun I have ever had was at the RC champs as went up for 4 days with my friends. Eventing is a very social sport for me, my friends and I enter the same events where possible and I hate eventing by myself as it’s an in and out whereas I have spent a tonne of money so prefer it to be social.


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## GinaGeo (10 March 2022)

LEC said:



			I have been thinking about this subject overnight and I think the big issue is that adults want what the U18s get. The U18s effectively have double the value in their membership to adults. They can participate in all the adults stuff and then they get the specialist classes just for them where they are with all their mates who they have met through the training locally as so much organised including camps. Finally this is topped off with a U18 champs which is teams. The buy in from U18s is going to be twice that as so much more motivation to be part of BE with distinctive goals and friends all doing it. I don’t feel any of that towards BE. It’s just a mechanism I don’t feel that engaged with. There is no emotional buy in or loyalty from me with whether I go BE or unaff.

Yet, every year I turn up to RC qualifiers because I want to compete with my mates and love being in a team. The most fun I have ever had was at the RC champs as went up for 4 days with my friends. Eventing is a very social sport for me, my friends and I enter the same events where possible and I hate eventing by myself as it’s an in and out whereas I have spent a tonne of money so prefer it to be social.
		
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For me, you've hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what would encourage me to re-join.

It's one of the reasons I enjoy the Side Saddle stuff. I'm in an active area, of like-minded people and it's sociable.  We compete against each other. But most importantly we train together and support each other.


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## Ambers Echo (10 March 2022)

Yup Katie had a brilliant time doing the U18s last year. And yes, the training was great too. She qualifed for Area Festinvals but didn't even go as it clashed with some U18s stuff which was far more of a priority for her.


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## Otherwise (10 March 2022)

LEC said:



			I have been thinking about this subject overnight and I think the big issue is that adults want what the U18s get. The U18s effectively have double the value in their membership to adults. They can participate in all the adults stuff and then they get the specialist classes just for them where they are with all their mates who they have met through the training locally as so much organised including camps. Finally this is topped off with a U18 champs which is teams. The buy in from U18s is going to be twice that as so much more motivation to be part of BE with distinctive goals and friends all doing it. I don’t feel any of that towards BE. It’s just a mechanism I don’t feel that engaged with. There is no emotional buy in or loyalty from me with whether I go BE or unaff.

Yet, every year I turn up to RC qualifiers because I want to compete with my mates and love being in a team. The most fun I have ever had was at the RC champs as went up for 4 days with my friends. Eventing is a very social sport for me, my friends and I enter the same events where possible and I hate eventing by myself as it’s an in and out whereas I have spent a tonne of money so prefer it to be social.
		
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Something like teamquest would be pretty cool, I think it's been quite successful for BD at encouraging people to take part.


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## I'm Dun (10 March 2022)

LEC said:



			I have been thinking about this subject overnight and I think the big issue is that adults want what the U18s get. The U18s effectively have double the value in their membership to adults. They can participate in all the adults stuff and then they get the specialist classes just for them where they are with all their mates who they have met through the training locally as so much organised including camps. Finally this is topped off with a U18 champs which is teams. The buy in from U18s is going to be twice that as so much more motivation to be part of BE with distinctive goals and friends all doing it. I don’t feel any of that towards BE. It’s just a mechanism I don’t feel that engaged with. There is no emotional buy in or loyalty from me with whether I go BE or unaff.

Yet, every year I turn up to RC qualifiers because I want to compete with my mates and love being in a team. The most fun I have ever had was at the RC champs as went up for 4 days with my friends. Eventing is a very social sport for me, my friends and I enter the same events where possible and I hate eventing by myself as it’s an in and out whereas I have spent a tonne of money so prefer it to be social.
		
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yes that would be brilliant! Its the sort of thing that keeps people coming back and feeling engaged and interested


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## RachelFerd (10 March 2022)

LEC said:



			I have been thinking about this subject overnight and I think the big issue is that adults want what the U18s get. The U18s effectively have double the value in their membership to adults. They can participate in all the adults stuff and then they get the specialist classes just for them where they are with all their mates who they have met through the training locally as so much organised including camps. Finally this is topped off with a U18 champs which is teams. The buy in from U18s is going to be twice that as so much more motivation to be part of BE with distinctive goals and friends all doing it. I don’t feel any of that towards BE. It’s just a mechanism I don’t feel that engaged with. There is no emotional buy in or loyalty from me with whether I go BE or unaff.

Yet, every year I turn up to RC qualifiers because I want to compete with my mates and love being in a team. The most fun I have ever had was at the RC champs as went up for 4 days with my friends. Eventing is a very social sport for me, my friends and I enter the same events where possible and I hate eventing by myself as it’s an in and out whereas I have spent a tonne of money so prefer it to be social.
		
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I sometimes feel like I really missed out on the U18 stuff - I mean, I was a BE member from the age of 15, and although I did do some novices when I was 17 and 18, I was never quite competitive enough to get involved with the JRN programme at the time. The under 18 programme and 90 and 100 did not exist then. I wish it had! My Pony Club was too snotty and didn't think my horse was good enough for their teams (funnily enough, he was the only horse to jump clear from our PC at the open pony club areas when I was an individual who didn't make the team....) although we did enjoy some riding club senior team stuff when I was 18.

My allegiance shifted to BE really because I found the sycophantic teams element of PC to be rather off putting... 

These days though I would love more social opportunities. I know that Helen wants to bring back the training and I think that's a big thing - letting you meet more people in your local area competing at the same level as you, and therefore becoming friendly faces in the lorry park that you can chat to.


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## LEC (10 March 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I sometimes feel like I really missed out on the U18 stuff - I mean, I was a BE member from the age of 15, and although I did do some novices when I was 17 and 18, I was never quite competitive enough to get involved with the JRN programme at the time. The under 18 programme and 90 and 100 did not exist then. I wish it had! My Pony Club was too snotty and didn't think my horse was good enough for their teams (funnily enough, he was the only horse to jump clear from our PC at the open pony club areas when I was an individual who didn't make the team....) although we did enjoy some riding club senior team stuff when I was 18.

My allegiance shifted to BE really because I found the sycophantic teams element of PC to be rather off putting...

These days though I would love more social opportunities. I know that Helen wants to bring back the training and I think that's a big thing - letting you meet more people in your local area competing at the same level as you, and therefore becoming friendly faces in the lorry park that you can chat to.
		
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The adult training was always a bit random and the costs never stacked up. Again the U18s looks a lot better price structured. The big thing I notice though is all the U18s know each other as have training. They know the coaches quite well then see them at events so it’s a lot more homogenised from training to competition.
Get course walks and someone around to fire a question at.
Funnily enough I had one of my BE coach friends ring me up today to fire some ideas at me and get my feedback and we discussed this U18s ‘value’ they get in membership. We laughed about them often hating each other as well but that’s normal isn’t it.
I have just started Team Quest and I am so NOT a TQ type of person but actually it’s not bad and been quite sociable. I am not a pro, this is my hobby and I want to have fun.


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## RachelFerd (10 March 2022)

LEC said:



			The adult training was always a bit random and the costs never stacked up. Again the U18s looks a lot better price structured. The big thing I notice though is all the U18s know each other as have training. They know the coaches quite well then see them at events so it’s a lot more homogenised from training to competition.
Get course walks and someone around to fire a question at.
Funnily enough I had one of my BE coach friends ring me up today to fire some ideas at me and get my feedback and we discussed this U18s ‘value’ they get in membership. We laughed about them often hating each other as well but that’s normal isn’t it.
I have just started Team Quest and I am so NOT a TQ type of person but actually it’s not bad and been quite sociable. I am not a pro, this is my hobby and I want to have fun.
		
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When I was in East Anglia the training offering was actually pretty decent. I used to do quite a bit of it through the winter.


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## Cragrat (10 March 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			For what it's worth - here's my made-up way this would work:

1 March - 30 June - 4 month initial qualification period - at BE80/90/100 level - qualify by getting 3x double clears, OR 1x top 10% placing
July & August - area festivals - with a better geographical spread - you can only compete at 1, top 20% qualify
September - championships - at Blenheim to run alongside a 'big' event, or Cornbury for big event feel... or Kelsall for something standalone but with potential to be impressive
		
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I like this idea - there definitely needs to be a regional/area level  similar to BD.


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## MagicMelon (13 March 2022)

HappyHollyDays said:



			Its expensive and you can compete unaffiliated for much less on the same courses. My local XC venue has cancelled their first BE event because there were so few entires and they just couldn’t afford to lose money once they started the ballot process. There are no such problems filling spaces when Horse Events run the same type of event over a weekend at the same venue.

As a volunteer I have only fence judged once for BE and never again but I’m happy to help the organisers at Horse Events because they are well run and they look after us brilliantly.
		
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Its the cost thats limiting for me these days. I wish up my way that we even had "local" XC venues but we dont have many at all and of the odd unaffiliated couple, they're not well built so not encouraging to go to. By choice I would always opt for the unaffiliated (if a decent built course) as its so much cheaper. I did BE for years, mainly novice and up to CIC* level a few times and that was the highlight of my riding career. I love BE, I like how well organised the events are and the atmosphere but the weird increase in costings now along with the insane rule that they dont need to refund your entry if they have to cancel due to weather is just ridiculous - I cannot afford to compete at BE anymore even at the lowest level, but if I did manage to go to a couple on a ticket I really couldnt afford to risk losing my entry fee through no fault of my own. I have also fence judged at both unaffiliated and BE, as much as BE really look after us and are very appreciative, they were very very long days sitting in a chair in all weathers.

In Scotland, we dont have enough BE events in general. They're all massively spread out these days and I dont think many want to waste fuel and time driving 3+ hours to events. Im in NE Scotland and we dont even get any of the winter stuff you get down south, like the arena eventing stuff or the special BE training things etc. so utterly pointless being a member as dont even get those benefits.

Ultimately I feel there is a big need for more unaffiliated XC courses in Scotland, we dont have many or ones that actually hold proper competitions. We dont have any qualifer type things either. As much as I love eventing, Ive resigned myself to not getting many/any XC runs this year.


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## donkeyindisguise (16 March 2022)

I always watch these threads with interest.... BE has always been the goal for me and it still is to a degree (albeit a long way off with a young horse and only just purchasing transport). 

The event I've got my heart set on doing starts at 100 so I know I'll need my MERS to get there but BE is far too expensive for me to justify now, and I certainly can't afford to risk losing the entry if it abandons. So for now when we're ready, in my head I have it planned that I'll have to do unaff until we're doing that confidently enough to justify entering a few BEs to get the MERs we need.

I'd love to support BE, I've been to a few events and can see why people love it.... but when most the courses round me offer an unaff event the week after the BE, over the same course.... it's an absolute no brainer really

I don't know the answer to fix it, and I do know that technically I will be part of the problem doing things the way I currently have planned, but there must be something, as there will be plenty more like me that want to event and should be choosing BE but won't be doing..... how do you change that mindset?

Someone suggested no membership costs for the lower levels, that seems like a fantastic place to start personally, I don't know, just rambling really :')


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## Cragrat (19 March 2022)

Another watching this thread with interest.

I have said before  - we pay a rider membership, a horse membership, increased entry fees and start fees.    What does that get us over and above unaffiliated????   A structure,  some consistency in differnt courses at the same level,  some decent safety rules like MER's .  At the lower levels, I am not worried about gaining points.  They pretty pointless - I'm not trying sell my horse.  

Unaffiliated are developing some better championship series, are cheaper to enter and just as well run?  Why would I choose to pay extra to BE?  

I also feel that the lower levels of BE are just there to prop up  the higher levels.  But it would be massive shame if BE were to collapse


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## Ambers Echo (26 April 2022)

Somerford is low on entries. It is a fantastic course at a fantastic venue so would be a huge shame for it to not run. So I am also worried about the future of BE -and am also part of the problem as I have no plans to event BE this year as I am focused on the Brigante Cup. A cup qualifier clashes with Somerford BE so I am not even doing it as a one off to support that particular venue. 

But this weekend at Epworth got me thinking again about the question of 'What has BE done wrong'.
I have done 2 events this season and my times have been nicely spaced in both. I looked at all sections and that seems to be the case across the board.

Katie's last BE at Frickley had 5 hours between dressage and XC! 9ish dressage, 2ish XC. That was a bit extreme but long gaps are far from uncommon. If unaff can schedule classes better than that, why can't BE? Or have I just been lucky so far?


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## Michen (26 April 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Somerford is low on entries. It is a fantastic course at a fantastic venue so would be a huge shame for it to not run. So I am also worried about the future of BE -and am also part of the problem as I have no plans to event BE this year as I am focused on the Brigante Cup. A cup qualifier clashes with Somerford BE so I am not even doing it as a one off to support that particular venue.

But this weekend at Epworth got me thinking again about the question of 'What has BE done wrong'.
I have done 2 events this season and my times have been nicely spaced in both. I looked at all sections and that seems to be the case across the board.

Katie's last BE at Frickley had 5 hours between dressage and XC! 9ish dressage, 2ish XC. That was a bit extreme but long gaps are far from uncommon. If unaff can schedule classes better than that, why can't BE? Or have I just been lucky so far?
		
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I love the spacing, time for a picnic and a cider (or two)


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## Ambers Echo (26 April 2022)

Yes I guess some people prefer it. I feel far too sick with nerves about the XC to want to hang around for hours waiting for it. And it's a long old day as it is.


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## Squeak (26 April 2022)

There seem to be quite a few events struggling this year.  It's hard to differentiate between the impacts of external factors such as increased cost of living and fuel and of course the unaffiliated events between the internal factors such as the increase in costs for entries, potential calendar issues, IT issues and other internal BE issues.

Potentially this always would have been a bad year for BE even if their house was in order.


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## RachelFerd (26 April 2022)

I did notice a showing article in the H&H this week bemoaning massive lack of entries in showing classes at agricultural and county shows - RIHS qualifiers with only 1 entry etc. - so I've seen BS, BD, BE and Showing venues all worried about lack of entries - so this does seem to be across the board.

That said, I wasn't surprised that Broadway and Moreton Morrell cancelled/reduced to 1 day - as this is the area of the country most significantly impacted by a local rise in co-ordinated unaff series via the Cotswold Cup.

I think market is saturated at a time when people are also keen to stay local. Certainly our local 'riding club' showing show that runs on the edge of my yard looks as busy as ever - but most people hack to it - no fuel costs!

...



Ambers Echo said:



			Katie's last BE at Frickley had 5 hours between dressage and XC! 9ish dressage, 2ish XC. That was a bit extreme but long gaps are far from uncommon. If unaff can schedule classes better than that, why can't BE? Or have I just been lucky so far?
		
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The Unaff classes using eventing scores will schedule in exactly the same way. It is the way that the sections pan out - if you are competing in the classes that are running last in the day on XC the dressage times will often be a long time before - its just how the scheduling works. If you're in early sections you're likely to have the standard 1hr-ish gaps. FEI is different because each phase has to conclude before the next is allowed to start - so gaps are always huge.


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## TheMule (26 April 2022)

I have a nice young horse that could go BE this year. But I don’t need to- there are loads of unaff options that I don’t need to commit to a membership fee for, that have a slightly lower entry fee, that have an entry date much closer to the event date and that will do the job for educating the horse.
I can run unaff at all of my local BE venues, they all have pro photographer, some have video companies to. There's just no reason for me to go BE


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## Ambers Echo (26 April 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			The Unaff classes using eventing scores will schedule in exactly the same way. It is the way that the sections pan out - if you are competing in the classes that are running last in the day on XC the dressage times will often be a long time before - its just how the scheduling works. If you're in early sections you're likely to have the standard 1hr-ish gaps. FEI is different because each phase has to conclude before the next is allowed to start - so gaps are always huge.
		
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Ah that makes sense. Thanks for explaining.


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## LEC (26 April 2022)

So for me locally:
I am in a very good area and very close to M5 so my options of events within 2 hours is huge both BE and Unaff.

Within 20 days I had the following options: Bicton, Mendip Plains, Howick, Broadway and Port Eliot. I went to one - Bicton.
Broadway, I had run at unaff so no point going back for.  MPEC have unaff 7 days after BE so going to enter younger horse in that. Bigger horse is having to trek 4 hours to Firle so knocks out MPEC and Howick. Port Eliot is 2 hours which is £100 in fuel so no point in making eventing £250 for a day out when it could be £150. Howick would have been the one I would have attended but a few days after Firle.

The younger horse has been on the back burner and is now getting going and I have three championships to aim for unaff and none at BE this year. Championships don't particularly motivate me and I don't go chasing them but they are nice to aim for on a 90/100 horse if it happens. That horse will not be doing BE as no point. Won't affiliate until close to Novice as I don't need MERs. 

I only affiliated the grey horse because I want to go Novice, so if I did PAYG which was my first choice, then could not do 1* at Offchurch or Area Festival so swayed me but now need to run 9x to make it worthwhile. 

I don't think there is one particular thing that is causing this issue but lots of smaller things.
Price of fuel
Inflation
Quality of Unaff and a clear calendar which people can plan for.
No membership needed for unaff so saves £250 immediately if a 100 horse.
Moving to PAYG which has hit those who might want to do 2-3 events.
Lack of fun things to aim for at BE within a calendar year.
Area Festival locations and timing in the calendar.
Poor fixtures scheduling.
Hard ground - nothing we can do on this but it does have an impact.


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## AandK (26 April 2022)

I haven't done BE for about 7yrs now.. Did a handful of UAs in 2017/18 on my old boy before he retired 3yrs ago, current horse is not ready to try eventing yet, maybe at the end of the season, if we do it will be UA as I have no idea how he will take to it. 

I see a lot of posts on FB about rising costs (both BE and cost of living!) as well as events crying out for entries or cancelling. It's so sad to see this gradual decline so to speak, I'm so grateful for the chances I got to go BE with the old boy back in the day (2002-2015 ish, not that we were that successful, but had some great times). I'd love to do that again with the 9yo but things have changed so much, I wonder what the next few years will bring.


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## Penguin_Toes (26 April 2022)

Is there a bit more of a risk if you go BE and have a terrible run that it is easily viewable by anyone with Google and could affect a horses price.  

What happens at an unaffiliated stays at an unaffiliated!


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## LEC (26 April 2022)

Penguin_Toes said:



			Is there a bit more of a risk if you go BE and have a terrible run that it is easily viewable by anyone with Google and could affect a horses price. 

What happens at an unaffiliated stays at an unaffiliated!
		
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Nah it’s very easy to find results now unless they have given the horse a completely different name but cotswold cup ask for entries to be under passport name.


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## ester (26 April 2022)

The schedule clashes/close tos I find really strange given that it seems it gets mentioned every year but no one seems to sit down and re work it?!


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## Nicnac (26 April 2022)

So with 90% of responses saying unaffiliated is the way to go, why did Munstead unaff only have enough entries to run one day last week rather than the planned two days?  A great ODE, BE course, BE type organisation.  Loads and loads of chimney pots in the surrounding areas so cheap for most to get to.  Somethings not adding up.


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## RachelFerd (26 April 2022)

Oh for crying out loud. Just entered Somerford with young horse. Not enough entries... cancelled... and it isn't like it clashes with anything locally. There's a Brigante cup event at Epworth, but that is 100 miles away. It is the only free weekend I have to take the baby to something in between international events for the older horse. Seriously annoying


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## Ambers Echo (26 April 2022)

The cost of living crisis may be affecting entries right across the board. Pony club can't even fill their annual camp. There is normally a massive bunfight over who gets places.


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## ester (26 April 2022)

sorry RF spotted you’d already said  

So somerford has cancelled


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## ester (26 April 2022)

Nicnac said:



			So with 90% of responses saying unaffiliated is the way to go, why did Munstead unaff only have enough entries to run one day last week rather than the planned two days?  A great ODE, BE course, BE type organisation.  Loads and loads of chimney pots in the surrounding areas so cheap for most to get to.  Somethings not adding up.
		
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I think it’s twofold cost = unaffiliated pref but also removes people that would normally be doing only unaff too


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## milliepops (26 April 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			The cost of living crisis may be affecting entries right across the board. Pony club can't even fill their annual camp. There is normally a massive bunfight over who gets places.
		
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could well be. i am quite glad that my current rides are yonks away from even being ready for an arena hire, because i don't feel like i'm missing out. at the moment i am struggling to justify the cost of diesel to even move the lorry.


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## RachelFerd (26 April 2022)

ester said:



			sorry RF spotted you’d already said 

So somerford has cancelled
		
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No options to run young horse until 11th June now  Bradwall this weekend is too soon for him, and then there's nothing in the area because Somerford was filling a fairly important gap. But no-one is entering (anything) it seems.


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## Ambers Echo (26 April 2022)

It's really sad to have lost Somerford. Hopefully a 1 year only blip. It's my favourite course. Well, of the ones I have done anyway.


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## LEC (26 April 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			The cost of living crisis may be affecting entries right across the board. Pony club can't even fill their annual camp. There is normally a massive bunfight over who gets places.
		
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Our local RC couldn’t fill their spaces and normally it’s a bunfight for camp. I keep watching the Banfield camps as they are extortionate now as went up £100 from last year. They also seem much slower with uptake.


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## RachelFerd (26 April 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			It's really sad to have lost Somerford. Hopefully a 1 year only blip. It's my favourite course. Well, of the ones I have done anyway.
		
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It is a fantastic course, saved purely for competitions and only used for 2x BE events and 1x RClub event usually each year. The 80 and 90 in particularly are only available at this event as the 2nd event starts at 100. They look after the ground brilliantly, it is presented beautifully and previously when it has been firm they have watered extensively.

Just trying to kick myself to remember that cost of living crisis is impacting other people in much worse ways than just a grassroots event cancellation...


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## Nicnac (26 April 2022)

So just looking through the cancelled BE events to date:

Bovington - Cancelled  80 - IN
Withington Manor - Cancelled N - 2* - not due to low entries but other costs.
Moreton Morrell - Cancelled 2nd day 90 - N
Horseheath 2 - entries shockingly low.  90 - 105 Clashes with Badminton but not same market!
Somerford - cancelled 90 - 100+ Really sorry @RachelFerd 

The higher levels seem to be attracting good entries so those owners running horses with pros don't seem to have been 'bitten' as much as Joe Public by the COL increases.  This makes sense as it's still early days and they are, in general, starting from a better financial position than your bog standard one horse amateur.  Will be interesting to see if the higher levels which are significantly more expensive to enter and maintain horses at are still as flush next year.


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## RachelFerd (26 April 2022)

Nicnac said:



			So just looking through the cancelled BE events to date:

Bovington - Cancelled  80 - IN
Withington Manor - Cancelled N - 2* - not due to low entries but other costs.
Moreton Morrell - Cancelled 2nd day 90 - N
Horseheath 2 - entries shockingly low.  90 - 105 Clashes with Badminton but not same market!
Somerford - cancelled 90 - 100+ Really sorry @RachelFerd

The higher levels seem to be attracting good entries so those owners running horses with pros don't seem to have been 'bitten' as much as Joe Public by the COL increases.  This makes sense as it's still early days and they are, in general, starting from a better financial position than your bog standard one horse amateur.  Will be interesting to see if the higher levels which are significantly more expensive to enter and maintain horses at are still as flush next year.
		
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Add Broadway to that list - cancelled 80-N

But also entries are still low at the higher level events. Kelsall cancelled their Friday, compressing the 90s into a couple of sections on Sunday afternoon and balloting all non-member entries. Chatsworth is fully subscribed, but didn't have to ballot, which is totally unheard of.

If you were a grassroots eventer in Cheshire just competing at 90 and not wanting to jump any bigger, you'd have wasted your money on PAYG or membership right now


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## Ambers Echo (26 April 2022)

And Kelsall dropped a day


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## ihatework (26 April 2022)

Nicnac said:



			So just looking through the cancelled BE events to date:

Bovington - Cancelled  80 - IN
Withington Manor - Cancelled N - 2* - not due to low entries but other costs.
Moreton Morrell - Cancelled 2nd day 90 - N
Horseheath 2 - entries shockingly low.  90 - 105 Clashes with Badminton but not same market!
Somerford - cancelled 90 - 100+ Really sorry @RachelFerd

The higher levels seem to be attracting good entries so those owners running horses with pros don't seem to have been 'bitten' as much as Joe Public by the COL increases.  This makes sense as it's still early days and they are, in general, starting from a better financial position than your bog standard one horse amateur.  Will be interesting to see if the higher levels which are significantly more expensive to enter and maintain horses at are still as flush next year.
		
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A lot of the pros round here are using the Cotswold cup or other unaff to bring the young horses out for owners


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## Tiddlypom (26 April 2022)

I'm gobsmacked to hear that Kelsall and Somerford BE are struggling to get entries. They are both superbly run competitions over brilliant courses.

£££s are tight, though, the rocketing cost of living has got to be having an impact even among the historically well heeled eventing community.


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## ycbm (26 April 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			I'm gobsmacked to hear that Kelsall and Somerford BE are struggling to get entries. They are both superbly run competitions over brilliant courses
		
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And slap bang in an area with a high population of competitive riders too. If those two venues can't make it work nobody can.  

I met someone today who works at a big local tourist attraction.  She says a slow day is 400 visitors,  yesterday they had 140. I think the cost of living must have a lot to do with this.  
.


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## Meredith (26 April 2022)

I don’t event but have just seen on Facebook that Somerford May 21 / 22 is cancelled


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## ownedbyaconnie (26 April 2022)

I wonder if it's a bit of a double whammy, cost of living has increased and more people are commuting again after the lockdowns.  I had completely forgotten that I used to set aside £250+ a month to commute and I have got very used to having that in my pocket.  Plus the coffees, snacks, friday drinks etc. And there will be people paying far more in train/petrol than that.


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## lar (26 April 2022)

Just had an email to confirm Somerford May Event cancelled


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## VRIN (26 April 2022)

Kelsall had to cancel a day too. I looked at the entries for Somerford yesterday and there wasn't so very many. 

Some people are commenting that its because of the lack of insurance which may be an issue but I think the lack of refund if something happens is also a big reason that people don't enter early. 

I have been very surprised and consider myself lucky that I have been fully refunded for a BD dressage event and an unaffiliated ODE as I have broken my ankle. This wouldn't have happened with BE and its a lot of money to 'lose'.


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## ester (26 April 2022)

It does seem that most of the recent cancellations have had their own insurance (which makes me laugh a bit as previously BE was all we have big buying power about it)


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## YorkshireLady (26 April 2022)

I do think there is some adjustment as well in way people entering - they need to enter earlier to keep events running...and they are not willing to do it it seems


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## Lexi_ (26 April 2022)

ycbm said:



			And slap bang in an area with a high population of competitive riders too. If those two venues can't make it work nobody can. 

I met someone today who works at a big local tourist attraction.  She says a slow day is 400 visitors,  yesterday they had 140. I think the cost of living must have a lot to do with this. 
.
		
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Whereas the one I work at is having a very healthy year for visitors! It’s really difficult to predict though - location/population density/domestic vs international travel & holidays/weather etc all come into play. The tourism market is having a funny old year.

I’m really sad about Somerford. It’s fantastically well run and usually a really nice, fair course so I can’t see it being first to be dropped off most people’s lists. Scary times.


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## Michen (26 April 2022)

It’s sad, I entered Tweseldown BE and two days looks pretty unviable given entry numbers. 😟


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## Pinkvboots (26 April 2022)

Michen said:



			It’s sad, I entered Tweseldown BE and two days looks pretty unviable given entry numbers. 😟
		
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I have never evented but I think competition in general has had a massive decline its really sad 😔


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## ycbm (27 April 2022)

Pinkvboots said:



			I have never evented but I think competition in general has had a massive decline its really sad 😔
		
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I'm not sure I feel sad about it,  I felt amateur horse owing lost its way a bit in the last 20 years.  It felt almost as if huge numbers of horse owners were wanting to be Charlotte or Oliver,  and even at the lowest levels the emphasis became comparing performance against others and winning points/rosettes.   I never heard the term "happy hacker"  used disparagingly about a horse or a rider in the earlier years of horse owning.  

I've made a personal choice to go back to loving my horse for who he is and not what he might be able to do,  and I sense (perhaps wrongly?) a lot of people around me going in the same direction. 
.


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## LEC (27 April 2022)

I actually think competition has just become quite a serious thing now because it has large amounts of money attached. I always had very nice ponies but they did everything in the summer from showing, xc, sjing and then hunted in the winter etc The level of competition was a lot less as we didn’t have the number of equestrian centres churning out options and it was PC or RC and that was pretty much it unless affiliated. The local show has died and I think that says a lot, people are very precious even about their kids ponies and it’s all quite serious in dr lessons etc for kids. I wonder how fun it is now for kids as all very structured whereas my pc lessons were galloping around bareback, going down cavaletti chutes and all swapping ponies.


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## Red-1 (27 April 2022)

I think the ground has a lot to do with it. We just had a fab weekend at Somerford camp, but the XC ground was so hard, I did very little. 

I have a XC lesson booked at GDL on Saturday, if it is as hard, then we will just be hacking round again as a lesson in independence. 

I never run on hard ground, but it is dispiriting when you travel 3 hours, pay out lots of money, only to walk the course and get back in the truck for a 3 hour drive back again. 

I had intended to BE this new one but, TBH at present, I think we will be unaffiliated. It is cheaper, I can often enter late and we will only be doing lower levels.


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## McGrools (27 April 2022)

Yes, i think folk arent willing to cough up to enter a month in advance when the british weather is so unpredictable. Ground is hard now, i wouldnt want to gamble £100 on what it will be like in 30 days. X


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## Tiddlypom (27 April 2022)

Lexi_ said:



			Whereas the one I work at is having a very healthy year for visitors! It’s really difficult to predict though - location/population density/domestic vs international travel & holidays/weather etc all come into play. The tourism market is having a funny old year.
		
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Does the place you work at belong to one of the stately home organisations, which members can then visit for free? We are working our 3 memberships hard, and are reining in on one-offs.


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## Michen (27 April 2022)

Red-1 said:



			I think the ground has a lot to do with it. We just had a fab weekend at Somerford camp, but the XC ground was so hard, I did very little. 

I have a XC lesson booked at GDL on Saturday, if it is as hard, then we will just be hacking round again as a lesson in independence. 

I never run on hard ground, but it is dispiriting when you travel 3 hours, pay out lots of money, only to walk the course and get back in the truck for a 3 hour drive back again. 

I had intended to BE this new one but, TBH at present, I think we will be unaffiliated. It is cheaper, I can often enter late and we will only be doing lower levels.
		
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ycbm said:



			I'm not sure I feel sad about it,  I felt amateur horse owing lost its way a bit in the last 20 years.  It felt almost as if huge numbers of horse owners were wanting to be Charlotte or Oliver,  and even at the lowest levels the emphasis became comparing performance against others and winning points/rosettes.   I never heard the term "happy hacker"  used disparagingly about a horse or a rider in the earlier years of horse owning.  

I've made a personal choice to go back to loving my horse for who he is and not what he might be able to do,  and I sense (perhaps wrongly?) a lot of people around me going in the same direction. 
.
		
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But these events are weeks away. I certainly wouldn’t be running on this ground but somerford / tweseldown are end May so it seems very unlikely that the weather won’t change by then. 

£100 quid is a lot to gamble on though, that said.


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## Nicnac (27 April 2022)

Michen said:



			£100 quid is a lot to gamble on though, that said.
		
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Having just lost over £83 withdrawing from an unaffiliated ODE at a BE site 5 days before (cut off was 7 days) due to horse being a bit 'off' and still chasing £45 from 2 BD classes I had to WD from as I am out of action for a few weeks I am done with it all whether unaff or aff.  I organised a different rider for my horse too for the ODE who was so disappointed not to run.

My email from BE this week wanting to renew my membership and having just renewed BD I feel that when I get back in the plate, I will be a very *happy *hacker a la YCBM!  Just can't be arsed to spend so much money training and entering for it all to go bristols vertical any more.

(sorry having a woe is me day as so fed up after 3.5 weeks of not riding and not out of the woods yet)


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## YorkshireLady (27 April 2022)

I do feel that the changing population of non pro riders is also part of this. There is an ageing population of people that rode competively have always done so alongside work.

it is much harder now post 21 to do this and save for house etc etc and all the other pressures. I really feel that this is what is affecting all the sports not just eventing.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (27 April 2022)

Pinkvboots said:



			I have never evented but I think competition in general has had a massive decline its really sad 😔
		
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It appears so.
2 x local events this weekend,  1 unaff dressage at super indoor arena and the other jumping - the 1st outside on grass event for that RC. 
Both normally pretty full in previous years, indeed last year both rammed.

Dressage entries closed last night, no more than 11 per class (some less)  - previously its had full classes of 30 well before closing date.
Jumping event has similar entries,  again - this is usually packed out. Ground there is pretty good even at present.

Seems many are cutting back on costs of travelling out this year?

TFF, cheerfully happy hacking a few times a week.....


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## Ambers Echo (27 April 2022)

Nicnac that's rubbish. So sorry and hope you get your BD money back soon and get back on board.

Eland ODE is full this weekend with a waitlist. Classes from 70-100 and a Brigante Cup Qualifier. So some people are still getting out. That's unaff though.


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## Wishfilly (27 April 2022)

I know Port Elliot have been struggling for entries for some classes this weekend, and I do wonder if it's been impacted by having Bicton the week before. We don't exactly have a lot of BE events down this way anyway, and I know East Devon and Cornwall aren't that close, but I also know people who travel from West Cornwall to Bicton.

I think putting them so close together will have possibly impacted entries for both, but I do think Port Elliot has suffered as a consequence. 

I do think the cost of living (and also the fear of it) is impacting people's choices right now- as well as the cost of diesel! For a lot of people, I think cost will be the main consideration at the moment.


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## Red-1 (28 April 2022)

Michen said:



			But these events are weeks away. I certainly wouldn’t be running on this ground but somerford / tweseldown are end May so it seems very unlikely that the weather won’t change by then.

£100 quid is a lot to gamble on though, that said.
		
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I don't know, I am back at a Somerford camp on the 13th May and have already cancelled my XC lessons, choosing to do dressage and arena jumping only. TBH, I booked the camps for XC but the schooling area, that I was convinced would be OK as it is billed as all weather, was simply not useful to us, other than as a hack round. 

The take off and landing sites were apparently hard core with dust, but the dust had set hard over the hard core. Most of them were at least flat, but some were not level. A good go round with a harrow would have sorted it. 

I dare say that if I'd had a mature, fit, experienced horse I would have done some, but not with a first time, unbalanced baby.


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## billylula (28 April 2022)

I don't understand why venues running BE are running unaff a week later then moaning about lack of entries for the BE.

I sell a product - if I said it cost 110, but next week it will be 75 then if course it will impact sales!


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## shortstuff99 (28 April 2022)

The ground thing is interesting, 15 years ago when I was doing most of my eventing we ran on any ground. Doing aeration and watering wasn't a thing. My horses stayed sound well into their 20s and yet ones now seem to barely make it to 10.

I did all my fast work out hacking on the same ground, maybe that conditioned them.


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## Roxylola (28 April 2022)

@Michen it's nearer £200 than £100 to gamble if you're payg.
Prices have gone up considerably, getting cheaper the more you do is only useful if you *want *to run more. I've just been put off entirely by the cost, I only would have run a couple of times anyway. 
Also, it's one thing to compete on firm going, that's a one off for one day and in my experience the courses are often managed to offset that. However, to compete you have to train and do fitness work which for me is a much bigger concern than competing on current ground


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## ycbm (28 April 2022)

shortstuff99 said:



			The ground thing is interesting, 15 years ago when I was doing most of my eventing we ran on any ground. Doing aeration and watering wasn't a thing. My horses stayed sound well into their 20s and yet ones now seem to barely make it to 10.

I did all my fast work out hacking on the same ground, maybe that conditioned them.
		
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When I started in the early 90s a very experienced eventer said to me "in this country,  if you don't run when it's hard and you don't run when it's muddy you will never run at all,  so just go".   There was no ground conditioning back then,  if you were lucky they'd got a farmer to power harrow a track but that just created a dangerous loose surface on top of hard ground.  

One of my horses did get hock arthritis at 10 but to be honest with his conformation we were lucky he didn't have it before that.  I've never pulled for hard ground and never had a horse with so much as a filled leg from it,  jumping up to BE Novice. 
.


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## LEC (28 April 2022)

shortstuff99 said:



			The ground thing is interesting, 15 years ago when I was doing most of my eventing we ran on any ground. Doing aeration and watering wasn't a thing. My horses stayed sound well into their 20s and yet ones now seem to barely make it to 10.

I did all my fast work out hacking on the same ground, maybe that conditioned them.
		
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The Aussies would say the same thing.

 A lot will depend on the type of horse. Big moving, heavier types are not going to do well. TB light framed types without big movement or jump will be fine. Tbh I have one Warmblood who doesn’t mind the hard but she kind of floats across the ground and she isn’t hard on herself over the jump so I don’t worry about the ground too much especially as competing at 90/100. Plus I condition on it as all my jumps are in a field. So not just ridden on beautiful surfaces. Her sister is a heavier lump who lands quite heavily over a jump so I am much more careful with her. She loves good going and will go in mud unlike her sister who has no 4WD at all. So as with everything it’s horses for courses.


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## billylula (28 April 2022)

We've missed so much competition due to covid and daughters illness thst I am determined to run on the hard ground - we train on it anyway - I won't put studs in though


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## RachelFerd (28 April 2022)

I think about all the pony club camps we did on rock hard ground... And we all survived.

I think w/ding from xc lessons a couple of weeks away is more careful than necessary. With young horses all the work over water/steps/ditches means you can do tonnes of useful work without needing to jump big on firm ground. Some rain now forecast next week too.

I am the lucky owner of a TB who doesn't move or jump big - who goes in deep mud and who goes on the firm. It's very practical! I am w/ding from Bradwall this weekend, but only because having discussed with instructor, his prep work for Chatsworth and Houghton is in place, all his prep runs have been good - at this point the risks outweigh the benefits to run again (we ran last weekend at Kelsall, so it would be fast going 2 weekends on the bounce). I've no doubt that Bradwall will do their best to produce safe going though - it's a fab event.


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## Michen (28 April 2022)

Roxylola said:



@Michen it's nearer £200 than £100 to gamble if you're payg.
Prices have gone up considerably, getting cheaper the more you do is only useful if you *want *to run more. I've just been put off entirely by the cost, I only would have run a couple of times anyway. 
Also, it's one thing to compete on firm going, that's a one off for one day and in my experience the courses are often managed to offset that. However, to compete you have to train and do fitness work which for me is a much bigger concern than competing on current ground
		
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Nearer £200 for the first run with PAYG yes but not after that. As for fitness as long as your horse is already fit which most would be by now you don’t really need to be doing specific canter work for 80/90 even 100 level. Most would be fit enough just from the school work and hacking even at walk to maintain it.  

That said I’m using gallops but only to keep Bog sane not because he needs it fitness wise snd also our school is riding deep with the lack of rain so I’m boxing out for arenas too.

I am opposite to you in that the maintenance doesn’t worry me as there’s ways around it to keep horses fit enough but I won’t run on hard ground full stop. 

My gamble that it’ll have rained by 22nd May isn’t looking great on the long range forecast though 🤣


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## Ambers Echo (28 April 2022)

Agree re XC schooling at Somerford. Assuming a camp will adjust the lesson plan for one rider as most people will want to jump. But a good instructor should be able to facilitate that. We run non jumping sessions on the 80 acres for all our camps which are popular - for confidence building in riding in open spaces and to gain experience on steps, slopes, ditches, water etc for young/green horses. We have loads to do and don’t run out of ideas.


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## Michen (28 April 2022)

shortstuff99 said:



			The ground thing is interesting, 15 years ago when I was doing most of my eventing we ran on any ground. Doing aeration and watering wasn't a thing. My horses stayed sound well into their 20s and yet ones now seem to barely make it to 10.

I did all my fast work out hacking on the same ground, maybe that conditioned them.
		
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Personal choice I guess. I have an arthritic horse who had hoof issues as a youngster. I simply have no interest in risking him unnecessarily, I also don’t believe in the conditioning as such, to me consistent fast work on hard ground just increases wear and tear on joints especially if they are already compromised.


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## Orangehorse (28 April 2022)

YorkshireLady said:



			I do feel that the changing population of non pro riders is also part of this. There is an ageing population of people that rode competively have always done so alongside work.

it is much harder now post 21 to do this and save for house etc etc and all the other pressures. I really feel that this is what is affecting all the sports not just eventing.
		
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I think you are right.


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## ycbm (28 April 2022)

billylula said:



			We've missed so much competition due to covid and daughters illness thst I am determined to run on the hard ground - we train on it anyway - I won't put studs in though
		
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That's the time I most wanted studs to stop the slipping.  I used long thin and very pointed ones to punch a hole in the baked earth.  
.


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## Michen (28 April 2022)

ycbm said:



			That's the time I most wanted studs to stop the slipping.  I used long thin and very pointed ones to punch a hole in the baked earth. 
.
		
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Yep same.


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## ycbm (28 April 2022)

YorkshireLady said:



			I do feel that the changing population of non pro riders is also part of this. There is an ageing population of people that rode competively have always done so alongside work.

it is much harder now post 21 to do this and save for house etc etc and all the other pressures. I really feel that this is what is affecting all the sports not just eventing.
		
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Affiliated competition is a lot more expensive than it used to be and so is the deposit on a house.  But I didn't own a horse until after we bought a house,  I wouldn't  have prioritised horse owning, never mind competing, over home owning.  Also it's far more accepted to stay living at home with your parents in adulthood at low/no rent these days.  I think this is a question of priorities, not simply  of finances.  
.


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## ester (28 April 2022)

billylula said:



			I don't understand why venues running BE are running unaff a week later then moaning about lack of entries for the BE.

I sell a product - if I said it cost 110, but next week it will be 75 then if course it will impact sales!
		
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I’m not sure they are moaning? Ive seen announcements but no moaning.


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## ycbm (28 April 2022)

ester said:



			I’m not sure they are moaning? Ive seen announcements but no moaning.
		
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This.  And Somerford does not run unaffiliated, the only way to get on that course is to do affiliated or Pony Club. I livery there now and I can't jump those fences.  To have Somerford cancelled for lack of entries is absolutely shocking.
.


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## Bernster (28 April 2022)

Urgh, as for hard ground, I did munstead the other week. It didn’t seem overly hard, and there was loose sand on top with give in it. But finn had me worried as he did get a puffy leg (one worse than the other) which we’ve been treating all week but finally back to normal today. So I’ll be more wary next time in the prep and running him on harder going. Horrible way to learn a lesson but learned all the same.

Def tricky though, as the times when it’s perfect/good going are so rare in the uk!!

I was surprised they didn’t get enough entries to run it over 2 days, but there were tons of events that weekend in the same area.


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## billylula (28 April 2022)

ester said:



			I’m not sure they are moaning? Ive seen announcements but no moaning.
		
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I'm not going to name the actual venue - but saying they are very disappointed etc and having to cancel events or drop to one day - then having an Unaffiliated the following weekend. I mean, its not rocket science! Also makes me feel fed up as a BE member as I feel as though I am subsidising the unaffiliated!


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## ester (28 April 2022)

I’m sure they are disappointed, they’d like to have enough numbers for both.


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## Ambers Echo (28 April 2022)

Yes a lot of venues run unaffiliated the weekend after their BE. Logistically that makes sense but from a customer perception POV it's not great. It is literally the SAME event, 7 days later, at half the price and with better prizes!


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## billylula (28 April 2022)

ycbm said:



			This.  And Somerford does not run unaffiliated, the only way to get on that course is to do affiliated or Pony Club. I livery there now and I can't jump those fences.  To have Somerford cancelled for lack of entries is absolutely shocking.
.
		
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I don't know this venue - but agree it is a real shame that it has been cancelled. The grassroots is really dropping off a cliff, I presume due to cheaper unaffiliated. Eventing Scores/ponycluberesults gives a pretty permanent record the way BE website does, so you can use results on there when selling a horse which doesn't help BE either.


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## billylula (28 April 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Yes a lot of venues run unaffiliated the weekend after their BE. Logistically that makes sense but from a customer perception POV it's not great. It is literally the SAME event, 7 days later, at half the price and with better prizes!
		
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Exactly! And with no balloting so if you get your entry in time there's no question that you'll have a run if the event goes ahead.


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## Ambers Echo (28 April 2022)

Which is why I have not rejoined BE but intend to stay unaff this season! I believe BE are aware of all the issues with unaff and have a plan. I sincerely hope so. Because you're right. BE is subsidising unaff at the moment and that isn't fair or sustainable.


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## billylula (28 April 2022)

the u18 BE is good (because of the training) if again expensive although I wish the u18 sections weren't always Open sections as the placings often go to kids on ex 3 and 4* horses


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## YorkshireLady (28 April 2022)

ycbm said:



			Affiliated competition is a lot more expensive than it used to be and so is the deposit on a house.  But I didn't own a horse until after we bought a house,  I wouldn't  have prioritised horse owning, never mind competing, over home owning.  Also it's far more accepted to stay living at home with your parents in adulthood at low/no rent these days.  I think this is a question of priorities, not simply  of finances. 
.
		
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I also owned a house before a horse...though had had horses prior and never stopped riding. However I think chances of buying as i did at 22 in the SE ( and indeed elsewhere) are slim and I wasnt helped by parents buying etc. So I see a gap the over 40s group is dwindling and potentially affected by finances. or some are just becoming horse owners..then you have the under 21s and then not as many in the middle  from mid 20s to 40- for whatever reason , and I think going back this is where lots of the non pro riders were.

I also think that eventing once you take a break from it...is harder to get back into and we may well have lost some during covid etc. I mean from the sheer effort of the 12 hour day and physical work that goes into it never mind cost.....


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## ycbm (28 April 2022)

YorkshireLady said:



			I also think that eventing once you take a break from it...is harder to get back into and we may well have lost some during covid etc. I mean from the sheer effort of the 12 hour day and physical work that goes into it never mind cost.....
		
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Definitely,  and if the break also coincides with getting older and/or changing horses then it can feel mentally too daunting to start over again jumping fixed timber at speed.  Speaking from experience here.  
.


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## ycbm (28 April 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			BE is subsidising unaff at the moment and that isn't fair or sustainable.
		
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I've seen this said quite a bit and I don't understand it.  Do BE pay for the course to be built?  It looks to me as if BE is simply being outmarketed/beaten  by a cheaper brand.  
.


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## Squeak (28 April 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Which is why I have not rejoined BE but intend to stay unaff this season! I believe BE are aware of all the issues with unaff and have a plan. I sincerely hope so. Because you're right. BE is subsidising unaff at the moment and that isn't fair or sustainable.
		
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I also keep hearing it and I'm not sure it's possibly the other way round where if the BE courses weren't able to run an unaffiliated the next week it wouldn't be viable for them to hold the BE's.


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## Ambers Echo (28 April 2022)

As I understand it, BE pay for a lot of the hidden costs that go into making courses well built and safe. And unaff have the benefit of that investment if they run over those courses. Happy to be corrected though x


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## Squeak (28 April 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			As I understand it, BE pay for a lot of the hidden costs that go into making courses well built and safe. And unaff have the benefit of that investment if they run over those courses. Happy to be corrected though x
		
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No, you are correct but I was meaning that if you took away the unaffiliated for those venues then the BE's wouldn't be viable for them because they wouldn't make enough out of the one event so the unaff and the aff are propping each other up.


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## VRIN (28 April 2022)

Mark Phillips makes comment about this topic in this weeks H&H... "I worry about the future of British Eventing' ... and sums up by saying the BE business model needs to change.


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## RachelFerd (28 April 2022)

BE have just published this - https://news.britisheventing.com/br...ing-costs-making-flexibility-more-affordable/

Big cost reduction for PAYG - vouchers to those who already have PAYG membership.


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## Squeak (28 April 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			BE have just published this - https://news.britisheventing.com/br...ing-costs-making-flexibility-more-affordable/

Big cost reduction for PAYG - vouchers to those who already have PAYG membership.
		
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Wow really interesting.  Will be interesting to see if it entices riders back to BE or if as surmised earlier that it's actually all disciplines feeling the pinch and there just aren't the competitors to be enticed back.


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## Ambers Echo (28 April 2022)

Well that does make a difference. That’s far more than a token gesture.


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## ycbm (28 April 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			As I understand it, BE pay for a lot of the hidden costs that go into making courses well built and safe. And unaff have the benefit of that investment if they run over those courses. Happy to be corrected though x
		
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I have looked through the 2020 accounts line by line and I can't find anything that suggests that BE make any sizeable contribution to the building or maintenance of the courses. 

I think unaffiliated entries and, even more so,  fees paid for training over courses are subsidising BE, not the other way round. 
.


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## ycbm (28 April 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			BE have just published this - https://news.britisheventing.com/br...ing-costs-making-flexibility-more-affordable/

Big cost reduction for PAYG - vouchers to those who already have PAYG membership.
		
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They are listening and that's very quick work.  We'll done BE. 
.


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## Squeak (28 April 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Well that does make a difference. That’s far more than a token gesture.
		
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It really does!  I hadn't been planning on BEing this year and was just going to stick to UA but suddenly I'm starting to get excited that I could actually get back to BE!


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## Michen (28 April 2022)

Interesting. Just received this.


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## RachelFerd (28 April 2022)

ycbm said:



			I have looked through the 2020 accounts line by line and I can't find anything that suggests that BE make any sizeable contribution to the building or maintenance of the courses.

I think unaffiliated entries and, even more so,  fees paid for training over courses are subsidising BE, not the other way round.
.
		
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The costs are more in the overarching sport development space - so the cost of research into course design and safety, frangible tech, training and accreditation of officials including course designers and builders (yes, that's not entirely BE funded - but the availability of that accreditation and the development of it is)  - the higher levels of the sport have driven that research and education which then filters down to providing great courses by brilliant builders and designers at the lower levels. Plus most of the groundcare machinery is owned by BE and made available to events to use - useful for the places that run as one-offs. 

When it works there should be a symbiotic relationship between the upper and lower levels, with a pathway from the bottom to the top. The higher levels create the knowledge and skill which filters down, and the lower levels provide the baseline of participation that supports the upper levels.


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## ycbm (28 April 2022)

Designing and building a BE 80/90 isn't rocket science that requires a big eventing name and safety at BE80/90 isn't the same ask as at Advanced. I think the benefits to unaffiliated 80/90 from being a BE course are being over stated.  

It still looks to me as if it's unaffiliated competitions and particularly day to day  training fees that are subsidising the availability of these 80/90 courses to run BE. 
.


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## RachelFerd (28 April 2022)

ycbm said:



			Designing and building a BE 80/90 isn't rocket science that requires a big eventing name and safety at BE80/90 isn't the same ask as at Advanced. I think the benefits to unaffiliated 80/90 from being a BE course are being over stated. 

It still looks to me as if it's unaffiliated competitions and particularly day to day  training fees that are subsidising the availability of these 80/90 courses to run BE.
.
		
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Given some of the absolute lethal cr*p you used to see set out to jump at hunter trials and unaff events, I have to disagree!


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## Michen (28 April 2022)

Just checked.

So they've halved the membership from 30 quid for a horse and 30 quid for a rider to 15. And £10 rather than £15 for the day ticket.


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## ycbm (28 April 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			Given some of the absolute lethal cr*p you used to see set out to jump at hunter trials and unaff events, I have to disagree!
		
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Why do you make the assumption that safety standards would not have improved without BE?   There have been safety improvements everywhere in life driven by a more litigious culture and the requirements of insurers.  It would have been the same for unaffiliated eventing.  And they weren't all crap,  I've shown this picture before in this continuing  discussion,  it's unaffiliated from 1992/3 when BE started at BE Novice.


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## jules9203 (28 April 2022)

So I am one of the grassroots members that started at BE80 and moved up. I did so because I am very capable but have no nerve at all (for various reasons). At the time there were not the good unaffiliated competitions there are now.  I have stayed a member of BE recently despite not having anything to compete recently. However I'm going to be cancelling my membership as BE have been quite happy to take my money but haven't informed me of the price changes that have happened this yr. They just relied on my direct debit being paid. Fingers crossed next year I will be out eventing again but it will be UA.


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## RachelFerd (28 April 2022)

Whereas I remember a bunch of half poles of wood tied together with baking twine!


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## ester (28 April 2022)

A few complaining they wouldn't have done full membership if they'd know but I'm impressed by BE's action speed on the situation.


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## Squeak (28 April 2022)

ester said:



			A few complaining they wouldn't have done full membership if they'd know but I'm impressed by BE's action speed on the situation.
		
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Yes, I’ve seen quite a few complaining and feel sorry for BE. Can’t do right for doing wrong.


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## billylula (29 April 2022)

ycbm said:



			I have looked through the 2020 accounts line by line and I can't find anything that suggests that BE make any sizeable contribution to the building or maintenance of the courses.

I think unaffiliated entries and, even more so,  fees paid for training over courses are subsidising BE, not the other way round.
.
		
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"Loans may be made at favourable terms in order to help you pay for the building of the cross country course. The sums available will not cover the whole cost of the course but they assist and are usually repayable over the three years. British Eventing also has a Development Fund which events can apply to for funding with specific projects such as developing a cross country course."


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## billylula (29 April 2022)

I think what BE have done re PAYG is great - I wouldn't have bought a full horse season ticket for one of mine had I known! but never mind. Hopefully it will encourage more back to BE.


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## YorkshireLady (29 April 2022)

Its a good move - they had to presume those paying full membership will run....but that the PAYG more likely not to do so on cost....


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## ycbm (29 April 2022)

billylula said:



			"Loans may be made at favourable terms in order to help you pay for the building of the cross country course. The sums available will not cover the whole cost of the course but they assist and are usually repayable over the three years. British Eventing also has a Development Fund which events can apply to for funding with specific projects such as developing a cross country course."
		
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If BE is issuing loans or grants to build a XC course then they can stipulate what is done with the XC course.  This point came up in a discussion about whether affiliated subsidises unaffiliated. Presumably, if BE give a loan or a grant and then allow the course to be used for training and unaffiliated competition,  that would be because they realise that the venue needs those revenues to maintain the asset.  So once again,  that would actually mean that it is unaffiliated activities which are supporting BE, not the other way around. 

At best,  it's a mutually beneficial relationship. 
.


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## billylula (29 April 2022)

Unaffiliated has absolutely no benefit to me as a BE member.


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## ycbm (29 April 2022)

billylula said:



			Unaffiliated has absolutely no benefit to me as a BE member.
		
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Unless you never compete at a venue which is only financially viable with unaffiliated use, which is a lot of courses these days,   it does. 
.


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## Cragrat (29 April 2022)

billylula said:



			Unaffiliated has absolutely no benefit to me as a BE member.
		
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My nearest affliiated courses are 1 hr 15, 1 hr 30  and 1 hr 40 away.  Beyond that it's more than 2 hrs.   They each run 1 BE per year.  If it weren't for unaffiliated being run at these venues I wouldn't have many options.


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## TPO (30 April 2022)

Warwick Hall reduced to one day and eventer Derby instead of two days of BE. Not sure if it was mentioned above with the others


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## Nicnac (2 May 2022)

I have found the answer to this thread.  Perusing the BE website this evening and found this:

*MESSAGE FROM HELEN WEST, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF BRITISH EVENTING, REGARDING THE MEMBERSHIP RESTRUCTURE*

Member Updates
Posted: November 29, 2021
Curabitur blandit tempus ardua ridiculus sed magna. Pellentesque habitant morbi tristique senectus et netus. Quo usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra? Nihilne te nocturnum praesidium Palati, nihil urbis vigiliae.
Morbi odio eros, volutpat ut pharetra vitae, lobortis sed nibh. Mercedem aut nummos unde unde extricat, amaras. Praeterea iter est quasdam res quas ex communi. Quisque ut dolor gravida, placerat libero vel, euismod. Cum sociis natoque penatibus et magnis dis parturient. Tityre, tu patulae recubans sub tegmine fagi dolor.
Ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequat. Quae vero auctorem tractata ab fiducia dicuntur. Quisque placerat facilisis egestas cillum dolore.
Unam incolunt Belgae, aliam Aquitani, tertiam. Quid securi etiam tamquam eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Contra legem facit qui id facit quod lex prohibet. Tu quoque, Brute, fili mi, nihil timor populi, nihil! Non equidem invideo, miror magis posuere velit aliquet. Curabitur est gravida et libero vitae dictum.
Fictum, deserunt mollit anim laborum astutumque! Idque Caesaris facere voluntate liceret: sese habere. Morbi fringilla convallis sapien, id pulvinar odio volutpat. At nos hinc posthac, sitientis piros Afros.


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## shortstuff99 (2 May 2022)

Have I now summoned Imhotep reading that aloud?


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## MagicMelon (4 May 2022)

So... can anyone confirm the actual cost now to compete on a ticket?  Is is the entry fee and then £40 extra (£15 for horse, £15 for rider. £10 day ticket)? How is that cheaper than originally?  Im still confused...


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## Michen (4 May 2022)

MagicMelon said:



			So... can anyone confirm the actual cost now to compete on a ticket?  Is is the entry fee and then £40 extra (£15 for horse, £15 for rider. £10 day ticket)? How is that cheaper than originally?  Im still confused...
		
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Because you only pay the 15 for rider and 15 for horse once. Then 10 day ticket thereafter.


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## MagicMelon (4 May 2022)

Michen said:



			Because you only pay the 15 for rider and 15 for horse once. Then 10 day ticket thereafter.
		
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Oh right, so its a one off £30 fee, then just need to add £10 onto each entry fee after that?


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## Michen (4 May 2022)

MagicMelon said:



			Oh right, so its a one off £30 fee, then just need to add £10 onto each entry fee after that?
		
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Yes


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## Tiddlypom (19 May 2022)

Berriewood BE (Shropshire) is also cutting down to one day instead of two.

*News flash*

We will only be running our British Eventing Horse Trials on Saturday 11th June NOT Sunday 12th June 2022. Like many other events this year, we are experiencing lower than usual entries and therefore have decided to run on Saturday only. It has been a tough decision to make but ultimately it would not be viable to run over 2 days.

On Saturday 11th June we will run  BE80, BE90 and BE100.

If you have already entered for Sunday then you should have received an email from BE explaining your options. We are very sorry for the inconvenience this change may have caused for you.


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## RachelFerd (20 May 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			Berriewood BE (Shropshire) is also cutting down to one day instead of two.

*News flash*

We will only be running our British Eventing Horse Trials on Saturday 11th June NOT Sunday 12th June 2022. Like many other events this year, we are experiencing lower than usual entries and therefore have decided to run on Saturday only. It has been a tough decision to make but ultimately it would not be viable to run over 2 days.

On Saturday 11th June we will run  BE80, BE90 and BE100.

If you have already entered for Sunday then you should have received an email from BE explaining your options. We are very sorry for the inconvenience this change may have caused for you.
		
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Speetley is also on that weekend and looks like it will cut to 1 day.

In a fabulous act of cut-throat planning, this is the same weekend as the Brigante Cup qualifier at Eland Lodge (handily placed exactly inbetween the two BE events geographically) siphoning away the entries.


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## Ambers Echo (20 May 2022)

FB post from Speetley below. It clearly expresses the reasons for the increased costs associated with BE and the risks UA eventing present to BE.

I can’t help wondering whether BE is TOO prescriptive about how things Must Be Done? Are all those health and safety executives, regulators and ground jury people etc etc really necessary? Or do BE  need to streamline/become more efficient.

I generally agree with Speetlwy’s  position but reading that list of the army of extra people who get involved when it’s a BE not an UA event just made me wonder.


“British Eventing ODE’s
                   V’s
Unaffiliated ODE’s

10 years ago when we founded Speetley we ran Unaff ODE’s.
They were average and reasonably successful.
After a few years and being the progressive Centre you all know us for, we took the bold decision to host BE!
The commitment, preparation and cost compared to our own was immense.
However, months and months before our event date their team of experts came in and took over.
Ground jury, qualified and experienced
X/C designer and fence builder, SJ designer, secretary, the regulatory medical and veterinary personnel, control, starters, PA and commentators , health and safety executives all experts in their particular fields and all managed by our Personal Development Officer,  Chief Steward and Technical Advisor.
How could Speetley employ all this for our own ODE’s? I made the decision not to run unaffiliated again.
At this point I must add that I am in no way judging others who run unaffiliated events. I am speaking candidly and personally about Speetley.
We provide the venue, the facilities and finance and BE the knowledge, experience and perpetual training in safety and sport.
A good union I think !
For the sake of keeping all this flourishing  and for our brave, challenging and skilful sport I appeal to all those wanting to take part - please support this unique and caring union
Thank you for reading,
Lisa Renshaw
Speetley E C Ltd”


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## ycbm (20 May 2022)

I just think most people at 80/90 only want "average" and a nice day out at reasonable cost.  I know that's what I want,  maybe I'm just biased?  

How difficult is it to build a safe 80? Does a centre really need technical advice for that?  
.


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## Ambers Echo (20 May 2022)

ycbm said:



			I just think most people at 80/90 only want "average" and a nice day out at reasonable cost.  I know that's what I want,  maybe I'm just biased? 

How difficult is it to build a safe 80? Does a centre really need technical advice for that? 
.
		
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That’s kind of what I feel too ycbm. Overkill for grassroots??


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## ester (20 May 2022)

ycbm said:



			I just think most people at 80/90 only want "average" and a nice day out at reasonable cost.  I know that's what I want,  maybe I'm just biased? 

How difficult is it to build a safe 80? Does a centre really need technical advice for that? 
.
		
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Especially if there are minimal changes year on year? It would make sense for the first BE at a site perhaps but after that?


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## teapot (20 May 2022)

ycbm said:



			I just think most people at 80/90 only want "average" and a nice day out at reasonable cost.  I know that's what I want,  maybe I'm just biased? 

How difficult is it to build a safe 80? Does a centre really need technical advice for that? 
.
		
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ester said:



			Especially if there are minimal changes year on year? It would make sense for the first BE at a site perhaps but after that?
		
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It’s probably an insurance requirement.


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## shortstuff99 (20 May 2022)

Would that apply to RC or PC too? They have their own insurance, and H and S and way of doing things but are cheaper than BE.


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## teapot (20 May 2022)

shortstuff99 said:



			Would that apply to RC or PC too? They have their own insurance, and H and S and way of doing things but are cheaper than BE.
		
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It probably comes down to what the insurance actually covers. I’d imagine BE’s premium is a LOT larger because of numbers, heights, and increased risk of something going wrong, and what they’re actually covered for. BRC may get away with a lower level of medical cover for example (no idea if they do - just bashing ideas out) so their premium is smaller.

In my last two jobs, there was an extra nought of difference between the two annual insurance premiums for example. One was covered for far more than the other. I could be wrong, but I’d imagine the BE policy will be far more comprehensive than people may realise.


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## RachelFerd (21 May 2022)

Good post from the Speetley organisers. I don't think "people just want an average event" is a fair reflection. Seems most people want "an event that looks and feels like BE over an identical course" without paying for it. Not sustainable and will kill off the sport as we know it if it continues. Which, I hope, it won't with calendar changes coming next year. 

Also a kicker for Berriewood and Speetley is that it's Bramham weekend - we've seen bumper post-covid audiences at Badminton and Chatsworth so imagine a lot of people are looking forwards to Bramham too.


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## Patterdale (21 May 2022)

The thing is that before 80 arrived, SAFE unaffiliated courses at 80+ just didn’t really exist. If you wanted to jump a 90 course without jumping 100, then 45, then a wobbly picnic table as fences 1-3, you had to affiliate. 
But now, BE have effectively funded the unaffiliated market by providing the courses for it. 

Introducing 80 at affiliated level was a massive shot in the foot.


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## Ambers Echo (21 May 2022)

The quality of the course matters to me. But before I affiicated there were good courses (eg Smallwood) and awful ones (eg Derby - Broomfield College). Even ignoring the BE courses that run UA aswell. 

So you can have good quality unaff events without any BE input. Do sites really need that army of people for every event? What do they all do and do they all add value? Or enough value to justify the cost. Has there been any research into outcomes for horses and riders after falls BE vs unaff? I had a soft fall BE and had to be checked by a doctor. Why? I was totally fine. It felt overkill. On the other hand Izzy fell badly unaff and was on a spinal board and on her way to hospital with great speed and efficiency. (She was fine - it was precautionary as she landed on her head). So I did not experience a lack of care unaff but excessive care BE. Just one family's experience  but surely all unaff events have to risk assess and have adequate cover from a medical/veterinary/imsurance POV. Why a whole raft of additional medics, vets and insurance premiums for BE? 

I am not being argumentative for the sake of it. I just really don't understand what the added value of all that is. I do understand the value of research, fence design etc. But Speetley named a lot more than that.


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## RachelFerd (21 May 2022)

Ad


Ambers Echo said:



			The quality of the course matters to me. But before I affiicated there were good courses (eg Smallwood) and awful ones (eg Derby - Broomfield College). Even ignoring the BE courses that run UA aswell.

So you can have good quality unaff events without any BE input. Do sites really need that army of people for every event? What do they all do and do they all add value? Or enough value to justify the cost. Has there been any research into outcomes for horses and riders after falls BE vs unaff? I had a soft fall BE and had to be checked by a doctor. Why? I was totally fine. It felt overkill. On the other hand Izzy fell badly unaff and was on a spinal board and on her way to hospital with great speed and efficiency. (She was fine - it was precautionary as she landed on her head). So I did not experience a lack of care unaff but excessive care BE. Just one family's experience  but surely all unaff events have to risk assess and have adequate cover from a medical/veterinary/imsurance POV. Why a whole raft of additional medics, vets and insurance premiums for BE?

I am not being argumentative for the sake of it. I just really don't understand what the added value of all that is. I do understand the value of research, fence design etc. But Speetley named a lot more than that.
		
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Added value, for me, is a functional structured sport in which progression is possible. Lose that and it's all gone.


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## ycbm (21 May 2022)

Patterdale said:



			The thing is that before 80 arrived, SAFE unaffiliated courses at 80+ just didn’t really exist. If you wanted to jump a 90 course without jumping 100, then 45, then a wobbly picnic table as fences 1-3, you had to affiliate.
But now, BE have effectively funded the unaffiliated market by providing the courses for it.

Introducing 80 at affiliated level was a massive shot in the foot.
		
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This isn't true of Cheshire and this is the third time I've put up this unaffiliated picture from 1993 to prove it.

I think it's also wrong to assume that courses would not have improved over time without BE. I think the biggest driver of course improvement has been an increase in litigiousness and the requirements to get insurance.


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## milliepops (21 May 2022)

unaff horse trials in this area, at the time i affiliated, was as patterdale described - trappy and inconsistent.  The main reason why i wanted to do BE instead!  i would imagine there was huge variation across the country.


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## RachelFerd (21 May 2022)

ycbm said:



			This isn't true of Cheshire and this is the third time I've put up this unaffiliated picture from 1993 to prove it.

I think it's also wrong to assume that courses would not have improved over time without BE. I think the biggest driver of course improvement has been an increase in litigiousness and the requirements to get insurance.






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Christ alive -  the existence of 1 solid fence does not evidence decent course building 😂 

I could find many, many photos of sh1tty course building to evidence that if you want to see some horrors?!


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## RachelFerd (21 May 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			Christ alive -  the existence of 1 solid fence does not evidence decent course building 😂

I could find many, many photos of sh1tty course building to evidence that if you want to see some horrors?!
		
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So, more to follow tonight, but one of my perennial favourites is this one - fence 5 (!!!) in an unaffiliated 90.in Cambridgeshire (Alconbury). What a sure fire way to scare a novice horse going away from home. So much potential to put a foot in a ditch or get tipped up. This was 2012 as well, not the dark ages.

https://www.facebook.com/unaffiliat...a.10150978454239325/10153743391104325/?type=3


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## milliepops (21 May 2022)

just had a blast from the past trip round our local (now closed) unaff xc thanks to that site 
the 3'3 course varied between about 2'6 and 3'6.  they built lots of funny combinations that had totally random distances (1.5 strides etc).  erm... good times   i used to FJ a bit there too. i much prefer BE FJ-ing!


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## ester (21 May 2022)

My experience of unaffiliated pre BE80 was good (though mostly venues also doing BE), the main difference was that once you hit 85/90+ unaffiliated the course got more technical, you would have jumps into water, corners, trickier lines/skinnys etc so in comparison BE80 was straight forward as intended progression. Obviously there were experienced ponies for whom 85/90 was going to be their max so the complexity wasn't a bad thing for them.
I hope that makes sense.


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## Patterdale (21 May 2022)

ycbm said:



			This isn't true of Cheshire and this is the third time I've put up this unaffiliated picture from 1993 to prove it.

I think it's also wrong to assume that courses would not have improved over time without BE. I think the biggest driver of course improvement has been an increase in litigiousness and the requirements to get insurance.






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This is ONE fence! 

I WAS out eventing at unaffiliated and affiliated level over 15 years ago, and I can tell you now that most unaffiliated courses over 2’6 were pure safety hazards, strided out by cockeyed ducks (if at all) and built from matchsticks and/or concrete troughs. 
This is only mild exaggeration!

BE was the only way to go in safety once you got to 90/100. Or, BE courses having an unaffiliated event.


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## Patterdale (21 May 2022)

ester said:



			My experience of unaffiliated pre BE80 was good (though mostly venues also doing BE),
		
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Exactly. And pre BE80, this facility did not exist for that height level.


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## Tiddlypom (21 May 2022)

I can certainly recall some pretty rough and ready UA XC courses back in the day, in Cheshire and N.Wales. There used to be just novice classes at 2ft 9ins (83cm) and open classes at 3ft 6ins (106cm).

I retired after getting out of novice with 2 ODE wins, I was never brave enough to jump an open course.


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## ester (21 May 2022)

Patterdale said:



			Exactly. And pre BE80, this facility did not exist for that height level.
		
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I'm confused because youre previous post suggested your unaffiliated experiences were not good...


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## Patterdale (21 May 2022)

ester said:



			I'm confused because youre previous post suggested your unaffiliated experiences were not good...
		
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There’s a difference between actual unaffiliated courses, and an unaffiliated event running over a BE course.


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## Ambers Echo (21 May 2022)

Tiddlypm, I did a novice class in Cheshire sometime around 1997 but for the life of me can't remember where it was. The course started with a hedge. There was a bridge you had to go across in walk or trot. The dressgae test had a release and retake in canter across a diagonal. I'd love to know. It was the only one I ever did until 2018 on Amber.


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## Tiddlypom (21 May 2022)

AE, I'd have remembered a course with a hedge as the first fence and a bridge, but I haven't ridden at that one. I wonder where it was?


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## ester (21 May 2022)

Patterdale said:



			There’s a difference between actual unaffiliated courses, and an unaffiliated event running over a BE course.
		
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They weren't over BE courses though, just run at a venue that did. Organisers were PC usually.


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## RachelFerd (21 May 2022)

At isleham the pony club event sent the 100 class into the water over an intermediate drop once - because it measured less than 1m 😱


ester said:



			They weren't over BE courses though, just run at a venue that did. Organisers were PC usually.
		
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## Patterdale (21 May 2022)

ester said:



			They weren't over BE courses though, just run at a venue that did. Organisers were PC usually.
		
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So they had two completely separate courses?

An unaffiliated ODE at a BE venue is not the same thing as an unaffiliated course at a pure unaffiliated venue. 

Actually forget it, if you don’t/won’t understand thus far what I’ve said then I’m afraid I just don’t have the energy today


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## ester (21 May 2022)

Sorry for being confused about what you were getting at! I know they are not the same which is why I mentioned it in my earlier post. . .


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## ester (21 May 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			At isleham the pony club event sent the 100 class into the water over an intermediate drop once - because it measured less than 1m 😱
		
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I mostly remember stockland lovell sending people into the water over the roll tops for the 2'6 class.


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## HashRouge (21 May 2022)

Patterdale said:



			This is ONE fence!

I WAS out eventing at unaffiliated and affiliated level over 15 years ago, and I can tell you now that most unaffiliated courses over 2’6 were pure safety hazards, strided out by cockeyed ducks (if at all) and built from matchsticks and/or concrete troughs.
This is only mild exaggeration!

BE was the only way to go in safety once you got to 90/100. Or, BE courses having an unaffiliated event.
		
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In fairness, ycbm has posted that picture to illustrate her experience. So it's not just one fence - she's saying that was typical of the unaffiliated events she jumped at. Perhaps accept that your experience may have been different from hers, as I'm assuming you aren't claiming to have jumped at every single unaffiliated ODE in the country?


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## Ambers Echo (21 May 2022)

Broomfield send the 60cm class down a step into water. With this result!


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## Patterdale (21 May 2022)

HashRouge said:



			I'm assuming you aren't claiming to have jumped at every single unaffiliated ODE in the country?
		
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Yes actually, that’s precisely what I’m claiming 🙄


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## Patterdale (21 May 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Broomfield send the 60cm class down a step into water. With this result!






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😱🙈


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## Tiddlypom (21 May 2022)

Blimey, AE, and are those concrete slabs with nice sharp edges forming the step 😬?


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## ycbm (21 May 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			Christ alive -  the existence of 1 solid fence does not evidence decent course building 😂

I could find many, many photos of sh1tty course building to evidence that if you want to see some horrors?!
		
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I would not have posted it if the whole course had not been to the same standard.  Because that would have been deliberately misleading.  Thanks for that accusation. 
.


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## ycbm (21 May 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			I can certainly recall some pretty rough and ready UA XC courses back in the day, in Cheshire and N.Wales. There used to be just novice classes at 2ft 9ins (83cm) and open classes at 3ft 6ins (106cm).

I retired after getting out of novice with 2 ODE wins, I was never brave enough to jump an open course.
		
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Of course there were, I was only rebutting somebody's assertion that there were no good unaffiliated courses.  Because there were. 

And it's a long stretch,  for me,  to believe that no other pressures than BE  would have resulted in improved quality of courses over 30 years.
.


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## Ambers Echo (21 May 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			Blimey, AE, and are those concrete slabs with nice sharp edges forming the step 😬?
		
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Well you would not want to hit your head on them, for sure! It was such a weird course. Some fences were so small they were basically trip hazards. Especially the step up which was a few inches high and more or less hidden in the grass. Then a drop into water. Not one to go back to. Katie did get back on and complete though.


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## millitiger (24 May 2022)

Not sure how helpful this is, however just back from eventing at Great Tew this weekend, where they filled 3 days with entries from 80-100cm.

I dont think BE has run at Great Tew for a number of years so they aren't running over an affiliated course.

We had live scoring through EventingScores, easy to get on my phone in the lorry park.
An amazing cross country course and all ground had been aerovated.
Used their own dressage tests, rather than BE ones.
The day ran incredibly smoothly, there were paramedics, horse ambulance etc. on site if needed.
I was lucky enough to win my section and had great prizes, far better than I have won BE.

Is it simply better marketing by Cotswold Cup, pulling in the entries, or something deeper?
I genuinely don't know! 
I'm much more open to doing some BE this year with the change to day tickets but at the moment the unaffiliated are easier/quicker to enter, marginally cheaper and I get to ride at great venues like Great Tew, Gatcombe and Barbury Castle. I much prefer that to visiting ALW 8x a season!


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## RachelFerd (24 May 2022)

millitiger said:



			Not sure how helpful this is, however just back from eventing at Great Tew this weekend, where they filled 3 days with entries from 80-100cm.

I dont think BE has run at Great Tew for a number of years so they aren't running over an affiliated course.

We had live scoring through EventingScores, easy to get on my phone in the lorry park.
An amazing cross country course and all ground had been aerovated.
Used their own dressage tests, rather than BE ones.
The day ran incredibly smoothly, there were paramedics, horse ambulance etc. on site if needed.
I was lucky enough to win my section and had great prizes, far better than I have won BE.

Is it simply better marketing by Cotswold Cup, pulling in the entries, or something deeper?
I genuinely don't know!
I'm much more open to doing some BE this year with the change to day tickets but at the moment the unaffiliated are easier/quicker to enter, marginally cheaper and I get to ride at great venues like Great Tew, Gatcombe and Barbury Castle. I much prefer that to visiting ALW 8x a season!
		
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The Cotswold Cup events only started because a BE course designer wanted to run events at Oxstalls (I think) but BE, several years ago, would not grant them space in the calendar due to the fixture process being a very closed shop at that point in time. 

There's no reason why that entire set of events couldn't be in the BE calendar. 
There's no reason why the entire CC series couldn't be part of the BE calendar and continue to also be a specific set of events that runs as a league. I really hope that the new proposals for a much  more open fixtures process for grassroots level events fixes this. 

There's also no reason why affiliated event rules could change to allow events to run an unaffiliated 70cm alongside an affiliated event (this is commonplace in the US and AUS I think). 

I just find the whole thing so bl00dy stupid!


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## millitiger (24 May 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			The Cotswold Cup events only started because a BE course designer wanted to run events at Oxstalls (I think) but BE, several years ago, would not grant them space in the calendar due to the fixture process being a very closed shop at that point in time.

There's no reason why that entire set of events couldn't be in the BE calendar.
There's no reason why the entire CC series couldn't be part of the BE calendar and continue to also be a specific set of events that runs as a league. I really hope that the new proposals for a much  more open fixtures process for grassroots level events fixes this.

There's also no reason why affiliated event rules could change to allow events to run an unaffiliated 70cm alongside an affiliated event (this is commonplace in the US and AUS I think).

I just find the whole thing so bl00dy stupid!
		
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Agreed, I'm hopeful the new leadership in BE  can be a little more open minded and inclusive as many historic decisions seem to have cut their nose off to spite their face!


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## LEC (24 May 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			There's also no reason why affiliated event rules could change to allow events to run an unaffiliated 70cm alongside an affiliated event (this is commonplace in the US and AUS I think).

I just find the whole thing so bl00dy stupid!
		
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Just on this actually BD and BS manage to do this pretty regularly with running unaff at the same time.

I think BE has been arrogant for many years about everything and suddenly it has come back to bite them. MPEC which did get an event this year has been trying to get into the calendar for years.


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## RachelFerd (24 May 2022)

LEC said:



			Just on this actually BD and BS manage to do this pretty regularly with running unaff at the same time.

I think BE has been arrogant for many years about everything and suddenly it has come back to bite them. MPEC which did get an event this year has been trying to get into the calendar for years.
		
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It must be possible. I mean, lots of big events run arena eventing unaffiliated alongside their proper eventing (Chatsworth, Blenheim, Bramham, Houghton... even Frickley) - so why not extend that out a little bit to a wee 70cm class. If it bulks up the entries to make the day sustainable AND gets people on site and interested in participating in the sport its got to be a really good thing.

I just want a lovely big inclusive and fun sport - where everyone is in the bubble. We're a niche sport. There are only so many horses and riders who will ever participate. Everyone has to work together to make it work. We cannot return to the dark days of having professional/serious elite sport on one side, and scrappy unstructured sport with pockets of random organised leagues for the lower levels. It's regressive, elitist and dumb.


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## ycbm (24 May 2022)

millitiger said:



			Agreed, I'm hopeful the new leadership in BE  can be a little more open minded and inclusive as many historic decisions seem to have cut their nose off to spite their face!
		
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LEC said:



			I think BE has been arrogant for many years about everything and suddenly it has come back to bite them. MPEC which did get an event this year has been trying to get into the calendar for years.
		
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I got involved in a thread when BE used to run a forum,  years ago now.  I tried to suggest that BE was pricing itself out of the reach of ordinary riders and the response on that forum was "go to the AGM and raise it then". When I pointed out that ordinary members had jobs and couldn't just take a midweek day off work, and that the second class return  rail fare from Manchester to London at that time was  over £200, which could make the difference to lower paid competitors of not being able to event if they went to the AGM, the response was "tough". These were not official responses from BE, but they were,  I felt,  indicative of the attitude from the top. 

Nose to spite face and come back to bite them indeed. 
.


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## McGrools (24 May 2022)

[QUOTE="RachelFerd, post: 14920704, member: 40330"

I just want a lovely big inclusive and fun sport - where everyone is in the bubble. We're a niche sport. There are only so many horses and riders who will ever participate. Everyone has to work together to make it work. We cannot return to the dark days of having professional/serious elite sport on one side, and scrappy unstructured sport with pockets of random organised leagues for the lower levels. It's regressive, elitist and dumb.[/QUOTE]


Maybe controversial but I think BE is elitist and secretly wants to remain so. Lets face it, its a rich mans game, it always has been for the privileged few. 
I really dont think the senior powers that be want it to be easily accessible to mr and mrs average. 
Imo, I think the unaffiliated series upto 100 are the way forward as they are proving so succesful and leave BE to its novice and up competitors. 

I have noticed stafford is putting on pony club sections this year and Skipton is hoping too aswell. They realise they need the unaffiliated entrants to make it economically viable.


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## RachelFerd (24 May 2022)

McGrools said:



			[QUOTE="RachelFerd, post: 14920704, member: 40330"

I just want a lovely big inclusive and fun sport - where everyone is in the bubble. We're a niche sport. There are only so many horses and riders who will ever participate. Everyone has to work together to make it work. We cannot return to the dark days of having professional/serious elite sport on one side, and scrappy unstructured sport with pockets of random organised leagues for the lower levels. It's regressive, elitist and dumb.
		
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Maybe controversial but I think BE is elitist and secretly wants to remain so. Lets face it, its a rich mans game, it always has been for the privileged few.
I really dont think the senior powers that be want it to be easily accessible to mr and mrs average.
Imo, I think the unaffiliated series upto 100 are the way forward as they are proving so succesful and leave BE to its novice and up competitors.

I have noticed stafford is putting on pony club sections this year and Skipton is hoping too aswell. They realise they need the unaffiliated entrants to make it economically viable.[/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree with you less 😂😂😂

BE does not want to remain elitist. They are really trying their absolute best to make it attractive for new entrants and grassroots riders. They are trying to shake off the perception of elitism - but, and it's a big but, the sport does still remain expensive to participate in. 

People's assumptions about it being elitist are feeding an idea that it's 'not for them' when it's simply not true. 

Sigh. I know I'm never going to agree with everyone, but I do find this "us and them" attitude really annoying!


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## RachelFerd (25 May 2022)

So - interesting update from Skipton. They are running new 'GO BE' classes which are essentially unaffiliated classes running alongside the normal BE classes. No recorded results or MERs but rosettes and prizes.


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## Tiddlypom (26 May 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			So - interesting update from Skipton. They are running new 'GO BE' classes which are essentially unaffiliated classes running alongside the normal BE classes. No recorded results or MERs but rosettes and prizes.
		
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Running concurrently with the BE event? That's a very interesting development.


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## ester (26 May 2022)




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## ycbm (26 May 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			Running concurrently with the BE event? That's a very interesting development.
		
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Hats off to the new management team,  I would never have believed they could act as swiftly as they have. 
.


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## lannerch (26 May 2022)

It’s not just BE though struggling https://www.bolesworthdressage.com/event-cancellation


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## ycbm (26 May 2022)

ester said:








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Looks like it costs an additional £5.25 to do the entry and an extra £10 on the entry fee?  So PAYG lite, then? 

I think they might get quite a lot of dealer/pros doing test runs, maybe even under the stable name,  to avoid an early poor record as the horse learns. 
.


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## Red-1 (26 May 2022)

ycbm said:



			Looks like it costs an additional £5.25 to do the entry and an extra £10 on the entry fee?  So PAYG lite, then? 

I think they might get quite a lot of dealer/pros doing test runs, maybe even under the stable name,  to avoid an early poor record as the horse learns. 
.
		
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I think this will be even more popular than the BE classes!


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## Tiddlypom (26 May 2022)

lannerch said:



			It’s not just BE though struggling https://www.bolesworthdressage.com/event-cancellation

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Yes, I posted a thread on that a day or two ago. They've cancelled with a month to go.

I think that Bolesworth had the competitor entries, but not the advance ticket sales or hospitality bookings that they anticipated.


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## lannerch (26 May 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			Yes, I posted a thread on that a day or two ago. They've cancelled with a month to go.

I think that Bolesworth had the competitor entries, but not the advance ticket sales or hospitality bookings that they anticipated.
		
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I’ve been told from a reliable source that they didn’t have enough entries , just read your post, so sad a sign of the times unfortunately


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## ester (26 May 2022)

Yes their facebook post suggested they didn't have enough entries either.


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## Ambers Echo (26 May 2022)

BE does not want to remain elitist. They are really trying their absolute best to make it attractive for new entrants and grassroots riders. They are trying to shake off the perception of elitism - but, and it's a big but, the sport does still remain expensive to participate in.

People's assumptions about it being elitist are feeding an idea that it's 'not for them' when it's simply not true.

Sigh. I know I'm never going to agree with everyone, but I do find this "us and them" attitude really annoying![/QUOTE]

I don’t think BE want to be elitist but some riders do. It’s the same in every sport - runners complaining of marathons having time limits of over 5 hours as ‘that’s  not even running’, iron distance triathletes who just want to complete not ‘counting’ as ‘real’ Ironmen/women. I was told that unless I had a realistic chance of sub 12 hours , why was I bothering? And riders who think BE should start at novice as BE should ‘mean something’. It’s an attitude I’ve never understood as I’m totally passionate about inclusivity but it’s an attitude that’s definitely out there.


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## shortstuff99 (26 May 2022)

lannerch said:



			I’ve been told from a reliable source that they didn’t have enough entries , just read your post, so sad a sign of the times unfortunately
		
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I had considered entering but it was extremely expensive! Pretty much same price as a as doing an international 3 day BE! Couldn't justify that for dressage.


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## Tiddlypom (26 May 2022)

shortstuff99 said:



			I had considered entering but it was extremely expensive! Pretty much same price as a as doing an international 3 day BE! Couldn't justify that for dressage.
		
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As a matter of interest, what level(s) were you thinking of entering at and what were the entry fees?


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## BallyRoanBaubles (26 May 2022)

The camping (Without hook up!) was also extremely expensive at Bolesworth, some friends were going to go for the 3 days but the price put them off so decided to just drive down for the one day


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## TPO (26 May 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			I don’t think BE want to be elitist but some riders do. It’s the same in every sport - runners complaining of marathons having time limits of over 5 hours as ‘that’s not even running’, iron distance triathletes who just want to complete not ‘counting’ as ‘real’ Ironmen/women. I was told that unless I had a realistic chance of sub 12 hours , why was I bothering? And riders who think BE should start at novice as BE should ‘mean something’. It’s an attitude I’ve never understood as I’m totally passionate about inclusivity but it’s an attitude that’s definitely out there.
		
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To me that reads almost like "you should be at X level to enter". I don't see that as elitist?

I've seen some horrific combinations at BE 80/90 & the odd few at 100. They vary between/are a combination of overweight and/or unfit horse and/or rider, rider can't see or meet a stride/take off point, ineffective/dangerous riding, rider at best a passenger all careering towards fixed fences. I am genuinely surprised that there aren't more deaths at those levels because I have genuinely fears for strangers lives.

I also don't see why people shouldn't be at X level before they are allowed to enter. I appreciate the policing of that is near impossible. I don't see that at elitist.

I'd say elitism if there was a campaign to keep entry costs high to keep the plebs out but BE appear to be actively lowering entrance costs at grassroots levels.


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## milliepops (26 May 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			As a matter of interest, what level(s) were you thinking of entering at and what were the entry fees?
		
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think the national classes were between £140 and 170 ish for the 3 days, stabling on top obv.  Though I didn't get a lot of change from £1k from an FEI 3DE over a decade ago so i would say even expensive dressage is somewhat more affordable!


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## Ossy2 (26 May 2022)

shortstuff99 said:



			I had considered entering but it was extremely expensive! Pretty much same price as a as doing an international 3 day BE! Couldn't justify that for dressage.
		
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Yes us too but then we priced it for elementary or medium it was looking at over £300 per horse, all the little extra things, like muck removal fee you had to add on was not great reading for the total price at the end.  I know it costs a lot to put these on but at over £50 per test in entry fees alone its more than entering regionals/ pet plans ect and as much as it was a great idea and would have been a great experience we just couldn’t justify that when we are aiming for regionals ect as well


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## Ambers Echo (26 May 2022)

TPO said:



			To me that reads almost like "you should be at X level to enter". I don't see that as elitist?

I've seen some horrific combinations at BE 80/90 & the odd few at 100. They vary between/are a combination of overweight and/or unfit horse and/or rider, rider can't see or meet a stride/take off point, ineffective/dangerous riding, rider at best a passenger all careering towards fixed fences. I am genuinely surprised that there aren't more deaths at those levels because I have genuinely fears for strangers lives.

I also don't see why people shouldn't be at X level before they are allowed to enter. I appreciate the policing of that is near impossible. I don't see that at elitist.

I'd say elitism if there was a campaign to keep entry costs high to keep the plebs out but BE appear to be actively lowering entrance costs at grassroots levels.
		
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To me it;s feels nothing about safety or preparation - just a 'you;re not a 'real' eventer below Novice so stay away from 'real' eventing. That is elitism but as a word it means totally different things to different people. And yes there are horses having a go who are under prepared. I really like the MERS system to avoid that.

However the scariest combinations I have seen are PT ponies with ambitious, brave but inexperienced kids who have been bought mega-bucks ponies. The ponies can save them at BE100 but they have so little margin for error higher than that because they are far nearer their limit than a rider on a horse is likley to be.


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## Velcrobum (26 May 2022)

TPO said:



*I've seen some horrific combinations at BE 80/90 & the odd few at 100. They vary between/are a combination of overweight and/or unfit horse and/or rider, rider can't see or meet a stride/take off point, ineffective/dangerous riding, rider at best a passenger all careering towards fixed fences. I am genuinely surprised that there aren't more deaths at those levels because I have genuinely fears for strangers lives*

I also don't see why people shouldn't be at X level before they are allowed to enter. I appreciate the policing of that is near impossible. I don't see that at elitist.

I'd say elitism if there was a campaign to keep entry costs high to keep the plebs out but BE appear to be actively lowering entrance costs at grassroots levels.
		
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I volunteer at both CC and BE and there is a real concern about the standard of competitors at these levels, the number of "watch this combination" requests coming from the dressage judges is rising. I was at a BE where someone managed to have a rotational horse fall at 80 cms!! There is a huge amount of "all the gear with no idea" to be seen. Just watching some competitors walking courses is frightening as it becomes very obvious they do not understand how to walk "stride distances".


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## ihatework (26 May 2022)

Velcrobum said:



			I volunteer at both CC and BE and there is a real concern about the standard of competitors at these levels, the number of "watch this combination" requests coming from the dressage judges is rising. I was at a BE where someone managed to have a rotational horse fall at 80 cms!! There is a huge amount of "all the gear with no idea" to be seen. Just watching some competitors walking courses is frightening as it becomes very obvious they do not understand how to walk "stride distances".
		
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The standard at times certainly is horrific. But I think it’s probably because the sport is becoming more accessible (which is good). What I would say, is I would rather these riders were horrific over BE type courses where they are safely built, have systems in place to deal with the consequences if needed, rather than buried away in the unaff of old. There has to be some level of peer comparison going on for under prepared riders/horses, because on the flip side I think the majority of combinations are at a far higher standard than they ever were


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## TPO (26 May 2022)

Yeah I mean I see elitism as people being rude or excluding others because they don't have a 400k Oakley and aren't on 6 figure horses kitted out in £££ gear.

I don't see it as elitist to expect people to be at a standard that means they ae as safe as they can be firing themselves at fixed fences.

Honestly <dons tin hat and ducks> a lot of people at 80/90 & poss 100 *shouldn't" be, that entry money would be much better spent on training both on and off the horse.

"Back in the day" there was pretty solid RC structure and people did have to be "good enough" to affiliate. Apart from funding BE with the entries I don't think 80 or possibly even 90 has been a great idea. It's almost too accessible (if you have money).

The "be kind" stuff also seems to mean that  people shouldn't be told the truth. There's been some 😲😲😲 videos and pictures on here over the years and when someone (not me, I'm not that brave so no axe to grind) has said anything it has not gone down well. In the instances that I can recall the "truth speaker" has genuinely been trying to save someone's neck/life.

I have no idea how it would be possible but I'd rather people had to ride "judged" rounds their first time at 80/90 before they were allowed to enter competitively. I know my bar for success is simply surviving but I've seen so many close calls on here and real life and I don't want go to that many events. I don't even understand the mentality of wanting to do xc when riders struggle to canter a balanced circle or adjust a stride. I'm the opposite from elite so I don't know what that makes it?


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## Ambers Echo (26 May 2022)

I just wouldn;t call genine safety concerns 'elitism'. I would call the dismissal of 80/90 as 'not proper eventing' and not worthy of being called BE, elitism. And logically that attitude makes the risks much higher too. How are you supposed to learn if you can't prepare over easier courses? Yes training matters but at the end of the day you never have the experiencing of XC riding in XC clinics. You just don't. Very few XC training courses - including Somerford - have undualting ground for example. And setting off round a course to jump 20 efforts in a row is a totally different experience to anything you get in training.

So if someone want to event, how do they learn. Like IHW I'd far rather they start wth BE80 with pro led course walks and on the day support from trainers whpo are FAB. I;ve learned loads from course walks and trainers at 80T level.


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## TPO (26 May 2022)

The combinations referred to in my post really don't need to br worrying about simulating XC riding or a clinic not being enough they need to learn to adjust a canter stride and meet a pole on the ground from the right stride. 

So there is something wrong when those pairings are allowed out in course at 80/90/100 to wing it


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## Ambers Echo (26 May 2022)

I wouldn;t disagree but I don;t think that concern is elitist. Just safety conscious. I'd like junior SJ to have a style element because kids who treat their ponies horribly and fly round spurs flapping and yanking the ponies in the mouth to make tight turns often win. I don't think that is elitist either.


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## Old school (26 May 2022)

In Ireland the Eventing Ireland organisation has very long reaching and strict social  media rules for members. So I need to be careful or I could be expelled from the organisation. 
Due to their rules, I need to clarify that this is my personal opinion and in no way reflects the opinion of Eventing Ireland...

We have had an explosion of unaffiliated events. For 90cm and 100cm competitors/horses it is wonderful. A chance to have a run to fine tune your skills before going affiliated. However, the UA events are so smartly run, they are keeping customers and EI are losing out.

An example, in affiliated  eventing that this weekend 
the 90cm amateurs have dressage starting at 08:30. Last dressage amateur 90cm competitor is 09:42. Their SJ course will be ready 2pm most likely. Maybe a little earlier. Last year at same event the SJ surface was like the road. They will have to queue with all 90cm class entries to get their round in. Finally,  last year at the same event competitors in the 90cm classes were still waiting to go XC after 7pm. No one is going to tolerate that level of organisation. Add journey times and it is could almost be a welfare issue on a hot day.

Personally,  I think an event that can accommodate 300 entries, in a motorway accessible location, receiving just 138 entries, speaks very loudly that people are  not happy to pay for affiliated eventing and take such a long day out. 

I am curious as to where this will lead. Higher entry fees will push out the amateurs, thus placing a higher financial burden on the pros and their owners. If this occurs,  some owners will also step away. Again placing a higher burden on those left in the pool. Given that our team was not great in their results in Tokyo, in both eventing and show jumping,  I cannot see the tax payer wanting to hand over more funds. I wonder how it will all sort itself out.


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## shortstuff99 (26 May 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			As a matter of interest, what level(s) were you thinking of entering at and what were the entry fees?
		
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Was going to enter medium but at over 300 to enter plus fuel etc, way too much for me. If I had been doing the international classes then I probably would have done it.


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## McGrools (26 May 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			Running concurrently with the BE event? That's a very interesting development.
		
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Very interesting. If i had a horse ready to go i’d be entering promptly x


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## ycbm (27 May 2022)

TPO said:



			"Back in the day" there was pretty solid RC structure and people did have to be "good enough" to affiliate.
		
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Sorry TPO, I don't think this is true. There was no requirement to be a member of a riding club to affiliate to event.  It was just that when the lowest course was "Novice" at max height over four foot (includes brush), max width 7 feet or more,   it was almost  impossible to get a horse to jump fences of that size if you were completely incompetent.

The courses were also far less technical and you could,  (and I did!),  get away with pointing,  kicking,  and throwing your own heart over first if you were on a willing horse with a decent jump in them.

It's the lower heights that have allowed people who really shouldn't be on the course to have a go.  As an old timer though,  i think the problem there is not incompetent people having a go, that's completely up to them (and frankly for some,  part of the thrill) , it's the need of the organisers' insurers not to pick up the bill if someone sues.
.


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## Elf On A Shelf (27 May 2022)

The more I read about BE the more it scares me. Literally anyone with any animal can do it. No restrictions (unless of course you don't finish your dressage or show jumping section). At least in racing trainers and jockeys have to have licences that are properly and fully assessed. Even Point To Pointing you have to have licences and that's the amatuer side of racing.


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## TPO (27 May 2022)

ycbm said:



			Sorry TPO, I don't think this is true. There was no requirement to be a member of a riding club to affiliate to event.  It was just that when the lowest course was "Novice" at max height over four foot (includes brush), max width 7 feet or more,   it was almost  impossible to get a horse to jump fences of that size if you were completely incompetent.

The courses were also far less technical and you could,  (and I did!),  get away with pointing,  kicking,  and throwing your own heart over first if you were on a willing horse with a decent jump in them.

It's the lower heights that have allowed people who really shouldn't be on the course to have a go.  As an old timer though,  i think the problem there is not incompetent people having a go, that's completely up to them (and frankly for some,  part of the thrill) , it's the need of the organisers' insurers not to pick up the bill if someone sues.
.
		
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Sorry I worded that wrong. They didn't *have* to do RC first BUT there was a training structure there at levels lower than BE to get, well, training and experience. Going affiliated almost held a bit of prestige because you were "good enough" to go Novice iykwim having successfully "completed" RC. 

I don't have the same knowledge about RC these days and it seems different clubs have different things. Out of the 4 RCs near me I know what ones are preferred by the "good" riders and what one has a much lower standards with regards to everything e.g. allows the riding of lame, sore horses and has the head of the club (the proper name escape me!) slag them off behind their backs but does nothing about it.

I guess that's allowed BE to offer the lower levels too because the RC pathway isn't the only way now iykwim?

Now people can get the "prestige" of going affiliated when they should still be training. Obviously also  nothing stopping the same people going unaff and being the same danger to themselves and their horses. I just thought BE were supposed to be better at the "policing" side for safety etc.

I also find it hard to believe that the combinations that worry me XC were a pretty, harmonious picture in dressage and SJ.

I just made it up in my last post as I typed but the more I think on it the more I think my idea to have a judged event for everyone's first BE at 80 and 90 the more I think it's a good one (hark at me!). The dressage is judged anyway, the SJ is judged snd perhaps just a short additional comment if it was a controlled round or wild. Then FJ make a small note if their fence was met and cleared well.

Everyone can have a bad line or a flyer but if it's at every fence that the horse is jumping from a "bad" canter or consistently getting in too deep or standing well off that'll get picked up. Ot would take 2 additonalnsconds to report back too deep, stood well back, rider didn't have any influence over horse. Even a complete Novice can tell a nice smooth jump from one that was awkward. Again even the pros have bad rounds or bad fences but rarely a full course and ar 80/90 it might just identify those that don't meet a minimum score and need further training.

Of course nothing to stop those pairings going unaff over the same heights but you'd hope sense would kick in at some point and people would rather train to get better than say they are an "eventer" while risking their necks tearing across the country with zero control.

Not my neck so I really shouldn't care but it's really for the horses. I hate seeing strapped shut mouths with the rider removes the back teeth because they're a county behind over a fence.


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## Tiddlypom (27 May 2022)

It is scary. I've written for dressage and FJ'd for BE up to Intermediate level. Some combinations at the lower levels are terrifyingly unprepared.

Dressage judges do report certain combinations who they think will struggle for control on the XC. IME a steward then watches them on the SJ to see if they should continue. I don't know if SJ ever directly reports a combination as being not fit or safe for the XC? That would be an extra level of screening pre them being let loose over fixed fences.


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## ycbm (27 May 2022)

TPO said:



			Not my neck so I really shouldn't care but it's really for the horses. I hate seeing strapped shut mouths with the rider removes the back teeth because they're a county behind over a fence.
		
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Yes,  I'd defend to the end a rider's right to risk their own neck, but unfortunately there are welfare implications for the horse.  Agree with all the rest of this post as well. 
.


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## Ambers Echo (27 May 2022)

I agree with all that - but don't then conclude BE should ignore the lower levels! Quite the opposite. The need to have safety protocols, standards and a progression structure with structured coaching and the 80T training events is all the more important to address that.

So BE is about quality and professionalism - at ALL levels.


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## Old school (27 May 2022)

If you want all of those observations, it will be very expensive. Of the 'mummy club' that I have seen at PC and EI, their first question will be 'is the FJ qualified to assess my child?'. If not, then their opinion does not matter. This then creates the tricky question of volunteer vs professional making a judgement. Maybe select one fence that is A B and C, and is in every height category and have a qualified coach and steward watch each competitor go across. 

Here all of the underage riders must be signed off as being ready. I do think a line in the sand should be drawn that after a certain date all new over 18s should be assessed. But unfortunately, the litigation element of this possible solution is terrifying. In Ireland anyway....


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## Wishfilly (30 May 2022)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			The more I read about BE the more it scares me. Literally anyone with any animal can do it. No restrictions (unless of course you don't finish your dressage or show jumping section). At least in racing trainers and jockeys have to have licences that are properly and fully assessed. Even Point To Pointing you have to have licences and that's the amatuer side of racing.
		
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TBF there are height and age restrictions on horses, and age restrictions on riders. 

I do wonder if it would be good to have more of a qualification for combinations to move up the levels, i.e. you have to be assessed as safe at BE80 before you can do BE90 and so on- perhaps a double clear at the level below to progress? I'm not sure how you assess the safety of someone before they go around an 80, though.


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## shortstuff99 (30 May 2022)

There are MERs for 100cm and above, so you can't just enter a 100 or Novice willy nilly you do have to qualify at level below.


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## Wishfilly (30 May 2022)

shortstuff99 said:



			There are MERs for 100cm and above, so you can't just enter a 100 or Novice willy nilly you do have to qualify at level below.
		
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Yes, but equally you can just enter at 80/90 and no-one has any idea what your prep is/has been, and it might be better if there were some sort of qualifying process? 

Although that would probably see a lot more people not bothering with BE.


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## ihatework (30 May 2022)

Wishfilly said:



			Yes, but equally you can just enter at 80/90 and no-one has any idea what your prep is/has been, and it might be better if there were some sort of qualifying process? 

Although that would probably see a lot more people not bothering with BE.
		
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To play devils advocate, what sort of qualification would you expect at 80/90 - this is entry level in its own right, small simple fences. 2 eliminations back to back, or 3 in any season and you have to go get assessed by an accredited BE trainer before you are allowed to enter again.

At some point the individual has to step up and be accountable.


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## ester (30 May 2022)

Driving you have to be checked as competent to compete at club level (which I would say would broadly line up with unaff) and then checked again to do national level (which runs novice to advanced and prob equivalent of going to a BE) the difference being in numbers needing to be competency checked by I guess they do it in other countries too, we just don’t have that culture.


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## RachelFerd (30 May 2022)

You can't competency check unaff levels, because it is run on an ad hoc and unregulated basis. BE has continued performance requirements which should be triggered by continued failure to complete events.

The problem we have, is that continued performance requirements or basic competency checks can't be regulated in a world where unaffiliated exists - because if people want to event and don't like the idea of having to meet CPReqs or risk having a BE steward have a polite chat with them about their lack of safety, they just go unaff instead. So round and round we go!


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## Ambers Echo (30 May 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			You can't competency check unaff levels, because it is run on an ad hoc and unregulated basis. BE has continued performance requirements which should be triggered by continued failure to complete events.

The problem we have, is that continued performance requirements or basic competency checks can't be regulated in a world where unaffiliated exists - because if people want to event and don't like the idea of having to meet CPReqs or risk having a BE steward have a polite chat with them about their lack of safety, they just go unaff instead. So round and round we go!
		
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Exactly! BE offers a strategy to address safety fears. BE lowering the entry level is not the problem re safety.


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## Wishfilly (30 May 2022)

ihatework said:



			To play devils advocate, what sort of qualification would you expect at 80/90 - this is entry level in its own right, small simple fences. 2 eliminations back to back, or 3 in any season and you have to go get assessed by an accredited BE trainer before you are allowed to enter again.

At some point the individual has to step up and be accountable.
		
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But equally, there are people on this thread saying they see riding that is detrimental to the welfare of the horse at this level. The fences are big enough that you could give a horse a career ending injury (fully accept they could do this to themselves in the field).

And yes, equally, anyone can go off and do the same thing unaffiliated, too.

I don't know what qualification you'd use to complete 80, but other horse sports do have a qualification structure in part to try and minimise risks to the horse.


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## Squeak (30 May 2022)

At the risk of slightly changing the current topic of conversation, I was musing over the weekend with petrol prices going up _again_ that BE events would still be unaffordable despite BE's best efforts.  Most of the other disciplines don't require you to drive as far to compete making it eventers who feel the sting of petrol more.  

I was really impressed that they've reacted so quickly to the lack of entries but I fear that now the problem isn't even just the cost of the entry fee.  Anything that BE has done to reduce entry costs has been counteracted by the increase in petrol.  A days eventing is still hideously expensive unless you're very lucky and it's down the road.


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## Red-1 (30 May 2022)

I was one of those who started at PN, which was 1.05, and enjoyed the fact that competing at BE meant you were capable of hefting yourself over some fair sized fences. It didn't feel like real eventing until Novice though. I loved the old fashioned rider frighteners, good for a photo. 

Now, I wish they would do a 70cm class for me and my new horse! We did a training session at Epworth the other day, round the BE track (although we used the smaller fences) and even the 80cm fences looked huge to me now LOL.

I don't know what the answer is for BE.


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## shortstuff99 (30 May 2022)

Wishfilly said:



			But equally, there are people on this thread saying they see riding that is detrimental to the welfare of the horse at this level. The fences are big enough that you could give a horse a career ending injury (fully accept they could do this to themselves in the field).

And yes, equally, anyone can go off and do the same thing unaffiliated, too.

I don't know what qualification you'd use to complete 80, but other horse sports do have a qualification structure in part to try and minimise risks to the horse.
		
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Ah well then you're getting into the realm of the French et al systems where you have to pass a competency test to compete at all affiliated sports.


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## RachelFerd (30 May 2022)

And now Kelsall are putting on an unaffiliated which will clash with Cholmondeley Castle just down the road. I find it utterly stupid.


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## Tiddlypom (30 May 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			And now Kelsall are putting on an unaffiliated which will clash with Cholmondeley Castle just down the road. I find it utterly stupid.
		
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Oh, FFS, that's ridiculous 😬.


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## RachelFerd (30 May 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			Oh, FFS, that's ridiculous 😬.
		
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But of course, it doesn't clash with Cholmondeley Castle unaffiliated the week after.

Creating this whole sub-system of unaffiliated events which disrupt the core calendar is SO ANNOYING. SO SO ANNOYING.


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## Wishfilly (30 May 2022)

shortstuff99 said:



			Ah well then you're getting into the realm of the French et al systems where you have to pass a competency test to compete at all affiliated sports.
		
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Would that be such a bad thing? 



RachelFerd said:



			And now Kelsall are putting on an unaffiliated which will clash with Cholmondeley Castle just down the road. I find it utterly stupid.
		
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That does seem very unfair.


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## Ambers Echo (30 May 2022)

Surely the BE venues should liaise with each other rather than directly compete. It’s not in Kelsall’s interests either for anyone local to put an unaff on which clashes with their BE event, so why do it to Cholmondeley?


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## Tiddlypom (30 May 2022)

The Kelsall unaff is very much aping a BE event. No problem with that apart from that it is muscling in on the Cholmondeley BE weekend which is being held 45 mins down the road. Very poor show.

Classes 70cm to 1m. BE XC course designer. £70 entry fee.


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## ycbm (30 May 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Surely the BE venues should liaise with each other rather than directly compete. It’s not in Kelsall’s interests either for anyone local to put an unaff on which clashes with their BE event, so why do it to Cholmondeley?
		
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That's very,  very poor form on Kelsall's part.


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## RachelFerd (30 May 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			The Kelsall unaff is very much aping a BE event. No problem with that apart from that it is muscling in on the Cholmondeley BE weekend which is being held 45 mins down the road. Very poor show.

Classes 70cm to 1m. BE XC course designer. £70 entry fee.
		
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More like 20 minutes down the road...


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## Tiddlypom (30 May 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			More like 20 minutes down the road...
		
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Yes, I was being unduly pessimistic even accounting for towing. Cholmondeley and Kelsall Hill are just 14 miles apart by road according to Google maps.

The same Kelsall who had to scratch the Friday of their 3 day spring BE event due to lack of entries...


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## Lyle (31 May 2022)

Whilst the competency to compete topic is different from the original topic of this thread, I thought I'd put some info in.
In Australia, the Horse Riding Clubs Association of Victoria (HRCAV) has a level assessment system that all riders must follow. It starts, across all the disciplines (dressage, showjumping, combined training, Horse Trials, showing) at Level 5, and moves up to Level 1 (or Advanced for dressage and showjumping). As perspective, Level 1 Horse Trials is the equivalent to 1* eventing, advanced dressage equivalent to EA medium.  To compete, an accredited level assessor comes to your property and assesses you for the appropriate level of competition. To move up a level, you gain points while competing or you can get re-assessed. So perhaps a level assessment to assess competency to compete, and then MERs to move up? 
Opens a can of worms though, doesnt it? Moving away from common sense and onus of responsibility, instead regulating even the lowest levels.


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## lannerch (31 May 2022)

The more I hear of Kelsall the less I want to support them and I’m local . They made no attempt to soften their hard ground at the event this year, it was rock hard, I’m assuming agrivating costs money, that’s all they seem to be interested in, and in this case money at somebody else’s expense!


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## ycbm (31 May 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			Creating this whole sub-system of unaffiliated events which disrupt the core calendar is SO ANNOYING. SO SO ANNOYING.
		
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As I wrote on another thread,  it was predictable as soon as BE dropped the heights.  To get venues to run the lower heights they also had to drop the rule that no other events could be run over BE courses.  I wonder how many people these days even remember that rule existed?

I don't see any way back from this.  With increasing pressure on incomes, that isn't going to be going away any time soon,  it feels like BE is going to have to find a way to almost match unaffiliated prices, or die.  
.


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## VRIN (31 May 2022)

TBH Cholmondeley will attract the same people to their unaffiliated as will be running at Kelsall unaffiliated so I don't see that it will affect their entries for BE- I can't see many people would enter the BE event at Cholmondeley and then run the same horses at the unaffiliated one a week later.


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## Wishfilly (31 May 2022)

VRIN said:



			TBH Cholmondeley will attract the same people to their unaffiliated as will be running at Kelsall unaffiliated so I don't see that it will affect their entries for BE- I can't see many people would enter the BE event at Cholmondeley and then run the same horses at the unaffiliated one a week later.
		
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I think it probably hurts BE as a whole, though. I'm down the other end of the country, so I don't know the events, but down here there are definitely people who would save money and go unaff, rather than doing BE on a day ticket. It'll potentially reduce entries to both events, so it just seems an odd choice on the part of Kelsall.

ETA: maybe it's just because we have so few BE events in the county, but here at 80/90 especially, there's huge overlap between the people who run unaffiliated and do, say 3-4 BEs in a season as well. But maybe that's because the ones who are really serious about BE end up having to drive 3 hours+ to get to events, which isn't an option for a lot of people for a lot of reasons.


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## Tiddlypom (31 May 2022)

Where are all the volunteers going to come from for  the Kelsall unaff? You still need all the FJs, pole pickers, dressage writers etc etc for unaff. Many local regulars will already have volunteered for Cholmondeley BE. 

I've volunteered for BE at Kelsall many times, but stopped doing so because the volunteer management got so chaotic. We were stood down for FJing at short notice once because they had booked too many FJs. Other times I turned up to be assistant dressage steward, only to find that two of us had been given the same job. Sometimes they had booked too many dressage writers, others times not enough. I decided that if they couldn't be bothered to manage their volunteers properly that I was no longer interested in helping.


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## Ambers Echo (31 May 2022)

VRIN said:



			TBH Cholmondeley will attract the same people to their unaffiliated as will be running at Kelsall unaffiliated so I don't see that it will affect their entries for BE- I can't see many people would enter the BE event at Cholmondeley and then run the same horses at the unaffiliated one a week later.
		
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It will affect Cholmondely because Kelsall is now offering direct competition the same weekend. There will be people wanting to event that weekend who now think twice about going to Cholmondeley as they can go to Kelsall instead. Plus, as TP says, it dilutes the pool of vounteers.

I am at the Cholmondely unaff because it's a Brigante Cup qualifer. But I have decided that I will only do those or BEs now.


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## RachelFerd (31 May 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			It will affect Cholmondely because Kelsall is now offering direct competition the same weekend. There will be people wanting to event that weekend who now think twice about going to Cholmondeley as they can go to Kelsall instead. Plus, as TP says, it dilutes the pool of vounteers.

I am at the Cholmondely unaff because it's a Brigante Cup qualifier. But I have decided that I will only do those or BEs now.
		
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And it will also affect their next BE event. Because plenty of people will no longer see the point in running at Kelsall in September if they get to have a spin round something similar in July unaffiliated. They already upset a range of 90 competitors at the spring event because they cancelled the 3rd day due to lack of entries and the 90 then balloted out most of the PAYG entries. 

What I don't understand, is that they could have perfectly legitimately put on a 70/80 unaff ODE day which wouldn't impact Cholmondeley in the slightest because Cholmondeley doesn't run 80. But as it currently stands, if Cholmondeley were planning to run the new Go BE classes at 90 and 100 to ensure the viability of their event, they've now been potentially hijacked by this.

Anyone with sense would run at Cholmondeley as the ground prep will be far better, especially since they are catering for novice/int horses.


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## Squeak (31 May 2022)

Interesting to see the news from BE about their investment in to training.  I'm not sure it will manage to eradicate the concerns that people were just mentioning but it will hopefully help as well as potentially helping to create more of a community such as is available to the u18's.

Either way, another example of BE listening and trying to respond.


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## LEC (31 May 2022)

More concerning for me is that Rockingham have potentially said their very busy and well sponsored event is potentially unviable going forwards. Would be a huge loss.


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## RachelFerd (31 May 2022)

Squeak said:



			Interesting to see the news from BE about their investment in to training.  I'm not sure it will manage to eradicate the concerns that people were just mentioning but it will hopefully help as well as potentially helping to create more of a community such as is available to the u18's.

Either way, another example of BE listening and trying to respond.
		
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Was thinking about this for a bit and have to say that it sounds really exciting

a/ a 7-figure sum is a HUGE investment - 10 million+ 
b/ regional training open to all is a really bonus for creating local supportive eventing communities - i'm looking forwards to getting back into the training
c/ curriculum approach can hopefully address a lot of the safety and ignorance issues highlighted on this thread
d/ the investment is evidence that the role of a governing body goes much further than just providing the structure for some events - demonstrates that more can be achieved through centralising efforts rather than random hotchpotch of unaffiliated stuff


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## j1ffy (1 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			Was thinking about this for a bit and have to say that it sounds really exciting

a/ a 7-figure sum is a HUGE investment - 10 million+
b/ regional training open to all is a really bonus for creating local supportive eventing communities - i'm looking forwards to getting back into the training
c/ curriculum approach can hopefully address a lot of the safety and ignorance issues highlighted on this thread
d/ the investment is evidence that the role of a governing body goes much further than just providing the structure for some events - demonstrates that more can be achieved through centralising efforts rather than random hotchpotch of unaffiliated stuff
		
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I hate to burst your bubble, but £10m is 8 figures…


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## oldie48 (2 June 2022)

Sorry very late to this thread but had an interesting chat yesterday with friend who is just about to take her young horse to his first intermediate. She's an amateur rider who has been able to bring a few youngsters on to intermediate, these have mostly been home bred and she works full time to fund her riding. She's ridden one horse at advanced, they did three advanced in total before a field injury intervened. Competing at this level, she is up against the pros, which she doesn't mind in the least but it does mean although she does well, she generally doesn't win any prize money (which is rubbish anyway). Bringing her youngsters on, she doesn't bother to do BE until they are ready for a 100 and because she's ridden at advanced, albeit 7 years ago on a horse that she no longer has, she is excluded from the grassroots events. If she does 2 intermediates with her present horse she will have to stump up £100 to continue. She's not a pot hunter, so won't go out to do some of the UA series that have some very decent prizes (although I understand some pros are not that generous). I can't help thinking that BE's decision to widen access to riders by having 80s and 90s is at the heart of it's problems. It tempted riders away from the UA comps, which was detrimental to both the PC and RCs and now they are seeing riders being tempted back by UA comps with good prizes run at venues that used to be almost exclusively BE venues. Sadly it's the amateur riders who sit between these and the pros that seem to be carrying the cost and that is making BE even more elitist than it was. Apologies if this has already been said before but I stopped reading part way through this long thread.


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## RachelFerd (2 June 2022)

j1ffy said:



			I hate to burst your bubble, but £10m is 8 figures…
		
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Maths never was my strong point 😂😂


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## ester (7 June 2022)

Skipton had cancelled despite go BE and PC also running.


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## Ambers Echo (7 June 2022)

Somerford will probably be next


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## ester (7 June 2022)




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## RachelFerd (7 June 2022)

ester said:



			Skipton had cancelled despite go BE and PC also running.
		
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Yet another on my calendar to get cancelled. I gather 2 horse events unaffs in striking distance. Has to stop. Can't get sensible novice runs in


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## TheMule (7 June 2022)

I think the GoBE concept could be a success- I’m going to enter my young horse in one next month whereas before I simply wouldn’t have bothered with BE at all this year. But it’s new, the set up is a bit wishy-washy, it’s still quite pricey (I personally don’t think it should attract any extra cost in addition to the entry fee) and they haven’t spread the word far enough yet IMO


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## Ambers Echo (7 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			Yet another on my calendar to get cancelled. I gather 2 horse events unaffs in striking distance. Has to stop. Can't get sensible novice runs in 

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Somerford is the same weekend. Skipton are suggesting people go there instead. Thpough their decision to run  or not is TODAY


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## Ambers Echo (7 June 2022)

Oh sorry - Ester already said that!


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## Patterdale (7 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			And now Kelsall are putting on an unaffiliated which will clash with Cholmondeley Castle just down the road. I find it utterly stupid.
		
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Why would they do this?? Of all the other weekends they could run!?
I’ve entered Kelsall unaff purely because they are running an 80 and Cholmondeley aren’t. I’m hoping to do Cholmondeley unaff 80 the week after. 

Honestly though I’m tempted to withdraw because I don’t want to support this. I hadn’t realised - Cholmondeley wasn’t on my calendar due to not having an 80 so I didn’t see the clash. 

Kelsall are not running over the BE course either, they’re running xc in the arena eventing field which I think will disappoint a few people.


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## RachelFerd (7 June 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Somerford is the same weekend. Skipton are suggesting people go there instead. Thpough their decision to run  or not is TODAY
		
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Somerford isn't running 90 for the youngster and (annoyingly) older horse doesn't showjump well on their (beautiful) surface.


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## YorkshireLady (7 June 2022)

i am really worried that too many venues will cease to offer next year. it is a real shame


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## RachelFerd (7 June 2022)

YorkshireLady said:



			i am really worried that too many venues will cease to offer next year. it is a real shame
		
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Yep, this is v much my worry too. As someone who wants to be running simultaneously with 2 horses at 90/100 and at novice/int next year, I can see a really frustrating situation where I have to travel the length and breadth of the country with the older horse, and the young horse will have to go to badly scheduled unaff events because the bottom end of the sport has collapsed. Result is massively increased costs for me - and no logical progression route for anyone with ambition in the sport.

I really hope this doesn't happen. I don't think there's much more that the leadership of BE can do - they've been impressively quick to react on this, but circumstances are not in their favour.


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## Tiddlypom (7 June 2022)

Somerford International has announced that they are going ahead on July 1-3, but it must have been a close run thing judging by the way they had been pleading for competitors to get their entries in.

Presumably they picked some up from Skipton. Ill wind and all that. Still find it hard to believe that as an event as well known and as well regarded as Somerford has to hustle for entries.

https://www.facebook.com/1529828314...Fo7jDVGUk7FujQ4UTX3YqnAVsDbDqJNrurabayeTXRFl/


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## ester (7 June 2022)

Are most of the cancelled events ones that run more than once in the season? Just wondering if that is contributing to spreading the target market a bit more/people saying might do the next one and can’t afford both?


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## RachelFerd (7 June 2022)

ester said:



			Are most of the cancelled events ones that run more than once in the season? Just wondering if that is contributing to spreading the target market a bit more/people saying might do the next one and can’t afford both?
		
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Nope. Catton recently cancelled - a parkland one off event.


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## I'm Dun (7 June 2022)

I honestly think people just cant afford it. The cost of living is spiraling rapidly. I'm lucky to be relatively unaffected but most people are taking a big financial hit. Two horses have gone out on loan from my yard in the last couple of weeks as their owners just cant afford them anymore. My yard owner is putting on events at the yard, just low key dressage and show jumping and lots of people are doing that as its cheap and convenient, but there's not many people boxing up to go out and do things at the minute. The lady that events is only doing the Cotswold Cup now rather than BE as its cheaper. 

Things are set to get much worse and it does make me worry for the long term viability of events.


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## HashRouge (7 June 2022)

ester said:



View attachment 93899

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Does anyone know how many entries they would need to make it viable? 171 sounds like quite a lot to me, but obviously I don't know anything about the economics!


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## Wishfilly (7 June 2022)

I'm Dun said:



			I honestly think people just cant afford it. The cost of living is spiraling rapidly. I'm lucky to be relatively unaffected but most people are taking a big financial hit. Two horses have gone out on loan from my yard in the last couple of weeks as their owners just cant afford them anymore. My yard owner is putting on events at the yard, just low key dressage and show jumping and lots of people are doing that as its cheap and convenient, but there's not many people boxing up to go out and do things at the minute. The lady that events is only doing the Cotswold Cup now rather than BE as its cheaper.

Things are set to get much worse and it does make me worry for the long term viability of events.
		
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Yes, I agree. Not BE at all, but I went to a local show at the weekend and I think entries were a lot lower than they were expecting. The weather wasn't great, which obviously doesn't help BUT it's also the weekend before Royal Cornwall so I think they were hoping some people would like to come out for a practice on grass. And that was definitely significantly cheaper than going eventing even before you consider petrol. 

Our local unaff events do seem to be doing well, but I know the first BE of the year in the county struggled for entries, and lots of people can't afford the diesel to get upcountry, so then it's not worth affiliating for only 3/4 events. I think we're seeing a lot of people who used to compete affiliated stepping back to unaffiliated, and then those who used to go out unaffiliated stepping back from competing all together.


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## Mrs Pink (7 June 2022)

Not sure how to do quotes but Skipton have always said they need 400 entries to make it viable @HashRouge


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## Tiddlypom (7 June 2022)

Mrs Pink said:



			Not sure how to do quotes but Skipton have always said they need 400 entries to make it viable @HashRouge

Click to expand...

From Skipton Horse Trials FB page.

_A few facts.
Setup £38k - £40k
Abandonment insurance per event now paid by us
£1150._

_We need 480 entries to just breakeven._

_Any profit gets reinvested to provide new fences etc._

_Sadly it is a simple fact that we don't have huge cash reserves. Please enter before ballot to enable us to run. If we are looking at a huge financial loss at ballot we will be left with no alternative but to cancel. This will protect the events reserves and allow us to try again in August._

_So the onus is on you to please get your entries in ! We want to run the event for you but cant take the risk of losing £1000's._

_We look forward to seeing those entries rolling in !_

_Thank you._


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## Mrs Pink (7 June 2022)

Even the number of entries has had to go up, mind you last time I was involved was a few years ago lol
Was chatting to one of the organisers a couple of weeks ago and he mentioned that the insurance costs are virtually the same for any event, no matter what class there are running, apparently BE are supposed to be looking at that, as a way of bringing costs down.
For me though, as mentioned above, it's purely down to expense and a lack of events in the area, apart from Skipton, everything else tends to be at least 2 hours away, not good when you factor in the price of fuel as well


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## YorkshireLady (8 June 2022)

I think we are in a middle of a few issues come at once and the fuel as been the last issue that as fully impacted...as it makes the event even more pricey

I still say we have a shrinking market of people that are of the age to have the spare cash to do an expensive hobby. Def ageing group of people that were very committed non pros. Def see a healthy amount in the under 21 and maybe under 25 group. As I said previously RC even we have juniors and then mainly 40 plus...


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## MagicMelon (8 June 2022)

Are there too many BE events in England?  I dont think Ive ever heard of a BE event in Scotland cancel due to low entries, ours are far more spread out and there's not many of them though which may well be the key.

Personally, I used to event as much as possible. Nowadays with kids and the cost, its too much. I also really struggle as we dont have nearly enough unaffiliated events in my areas (Aberdeenshire), I think theres only ONE unaffiliated ODE this year within a 2 hour drive of me. So its near impossible to get an inexperienced horse any miles under its belt and I refuse to pay BE fees when I dont even know if my horse will go reliably through water yet! They also seem to make the closing dates so early, always a risk if your horse goes lame etc.

They need to offer more things IMO to attract members. For example their arena eventing Ive heard of sounds great but we dont have any of it anywhere near me. Why dont they encourage more venues to run these all year round? How about BE running old fashioned hunter trials?  They'd be brilliant and presumably cheaper than a full blown ODE to run.

These days its so much easier and cheaper to go unaffiliated showjumping or BS - BS there's loads of pretty much every weekend and you can actually win decent money or at least your entry fee back!  BE no hope!


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## milliepops (8 June 2022)

YorkshireLady said:



			I think we are in a middle of a few issues come at once and the fuel as been the last issue that as fully impacted...as it makes the event even more pricey

I still say we have a shrinking market of people that are of the age to have the spare cash to do an expensive hobby. Def ageing group of people that were very committed non pros. Def see a healthy amount in the under 21 and maybe under 25 group. As I said previously RC even we have juniors and then mainly 40 plus...
		
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yep. i think there's still a lot of money about (see a fair bit trucking into my yard on a weekly basis ) but i'd guess there are many people in the middle having to prioritise where to spend  their money. Between utilities, diesel, food etc just staying alive is costing lots more than pre-pandemic and while i can comfortably afford to keep my horses, competing is the thing that's gone by the wayside for me.  I quit eventing a decade + ago but i wouldn't even fork out to go to a dressage show at the moment.


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## MagicMelon (8 June 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			From Skipton Horse Trials FB page.

_A few facts.
Setup £38k - £40k
Abandonment insurance per event now paid by us
£1150.
._

Click to expand...

Why does it cost £38,000 for setup?  Can this be reduced at all?  I dont see how it can cost this much when most people (bar judges) are volunteers and presumably they just need to hire in toilets, showjumps etc.  does that really equate to almost £40,000?


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## milliepops (8 June 2022)

Bigg-ish events (N upwards) used to say that it could cost £1k a fence and that was yonks ago when i was competing.

Anyone seen the price of timber recently?!


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## MagicMelon (8 June 2022)

milliepops said:



			Bigg-ish events (N upwards) used to say that it could cost £1k a fence and that was yonks ago when i was competing.

Anyone seen the price of timber recently?!
		
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Surely they re-use a lot of fences though?  I dont know of any venues that make a complete set of brand new XC jumps for every event?  Surely its just maintainence?


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## milliepops (8 June 2022)

MagicMelon said:



			Surely they re-use a lot of fences though?  I dont know of any venues that make a complete set of brand new XC jumps for every event?  Surely its just maintainence?
		
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even if they only spend £50 a fence for maintenance (a new rail here, some paint or creosote there, new brush) multiply that up for however many levels they run that's still a big investment if only running 1x year, plus competitors tend to like new fences now and then.  Ground repair, all weather take offs etc etc etc

then, yeah, add in tannoy hire, toilets, vet, medic etc i bet it adds up very fast.


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## ihatework (8 June 2022)

MagicMelon said:



			Why does it cost £38,000 for setup?  Can this be reduced at all?  I dont see how it can cost this much when most people (bar judges) are volunteers and presumably they just need to hire in toilets, showjumps etc.  does that really equate to almost £40,000?
		
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Fence maintenance,
Ground maintenance,
Administrating the set up,
Charges/Deposits on paid services (temp stabling, medical etc)
Labour for the set up (multiple days)

I can quite see ~40k easily


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## RachelFerd (8 June 2022)

MagicMelon said:



			Surely they re-use a lot of fences though?  I dont know of any venues that make a complete set of brand new XC jumps for every event?  Surely its just maintainence?
		
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If you're running at 4 levels, with ~25 jumping efforts at each level, that's 100 jumps. If you're replacing 20% of the course each year as well as maintaining the existing fences, I can easily see how you'd have to spend £38k


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## teapot (8 June 2022)

I do wonder whether the cost of things need explaining to the wider public sometimes? ‘Oh why is set up so expensive’. Well…

Ever tried hiring multiple portaloos? That’s a just one four figure sum because you can’t just hire for the three days you actually need them.

Temp stables for overnights - four, if not five figures depending on size and duration.

Ground prep - hiring of machinery if not owned, diesel etc, into four figures.

If hot weather is due - extra water will be into four figures too.

I’m surprised they’ve said ‘only £40k’ this year tbh!


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## YorkshireLady (8 June 2022)

also payment to land owner? that must be part of it as well at many venues?


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## Tiddlypom (8 June 2022)

YorkshireLady said:



			also payment to land owner? that must be part of it as well at many venues?
		
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Cholomondeley won't be cheap, for sure. The estate will be getting a handsome payback from Musketeer.


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## Ambers Echo (12 June 2022)

I complained earlier about the BE website. My experiences with it have been horrendous. Not just because the website is badly designed (though it is) but because the entry process is so complex - too many diffrent types of memebership, unclear which one is best or what each one gets you. Horse validation etc etc etc. My membership has (I presume) lapsed but I should be able to log in anyway with my old details and renew easily. Like any other site would allow. What is the betting I can't?! Anyway I am about to try and enter. I will feedback! This sounds trivial but honestly my blood pressure is rising just considering it. And that alone is enough to put people off. Why waste time fighting technology when you can enter ANY OTHER COMPETITION so, so easily. 

Deep breath - I'm going in!


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## TPO (12 June 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			I complained earlier about the BE website. My experiences with it have been horrendous. Not just because the website is badly designed (though it is) but because the entry process is so complex - too many diffrent types of memebership, unclear which one is best or what each one gets you. Horse validation etc etc etc. My membership has (I presume) lapsed but I should be able to log in anyway with my old details and renew easily. Like any other site would allow. What is the betting I can't?! Anyway I am about to try and enter. I will feedback! This sounds trivial but honestly my blood pressure is rising just considering it. And that alone is enough to put people off. Why waste time fighting technology when you can enter ANY OTHER COMPETITION so, so easily.

Deep breath - I'm going in!
		
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Even more annoying/frustrating qhen you consider how much money they spent on it...


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## Ambers Echo (12 June 2022)

OK well it could have been worse!
I could log in which was a pleasant surprise and the PAYG option was easy to buy.

Then we got to horse registration.... Firstly - where? 

No drop down option that says 'Register A New Horse' when I was trying to enter Stafford. I had to go and try and find it. Also not anywhere particularly obvious. Which I did via about 5 other pages including one that said 'how to enter'. The first line of which said 'so you have your membership and your horse is registered. You are ready to enter'. Not very helpful. But I did eventually find My BE.

Then the passport details - Horse Sport Ireland does not come up as an option. And 'date of import'. I have no idea! I chose the date she came to me but she moved around a lot and I have no idea if they check these things. So no idea if I can get her validated or not. We shall see.

Still I started at 9.28 and have managed to renew membershiup and apply to have her validated in about 30 minutes. Which is not too painful.....


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## thunderpony (12 June 2022)

Just seen that Bold Heath have cancelled their BE event in August.


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## Patterdale (12 June 2022)

thunderpony said:



			Just seen that Bold Heath have cancelled their BE event in August.
		
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I don’t understand why they wouldn’t even try?? I would have entered!
Seems a bit defeatist, but I suppose I can understand


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## EventingMum (12 June 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			OK well it could have been worse!


Then the passport details - Horse Sport Ireland does not come up as an option. And 'date of import'. I have no idea! I chose the date she came to me but she moved around a lot and I have no idea if they check these things. So no idea if I can get her validated or not. We shall see.
		
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I'm just guessing but would this be because horses in Britain should have the passport overstamped by a British PIO?


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## DressageCob (13 June 2022)

Patterdale said:



			I don’t understand why they wouldn’t even try?? I would have entered!
Seems a bit defeatist, but I suppose I can understand 

Click to expand...

Why should they try? So many events (including locally) have either been cancelled or reduced to fewer days, and the rest have had to scramble to get entries. They have to pay so much just to get organised, and what's the point of that investment if there's no guarantee of reward? 

It's so deflating to see excellent local venues making these decisions but I can't blame them at all.


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## Ambers Echo (13 June 2022)

Progress report.... 
Managed to log in - hurrah
Managed to buy PAYG membership - hurrah
Then it was not obvious what happens next. Tried to enter Stafford and realised that of course Lottie does not know up under 'horse'.
So I figured out how to register her but then still could not enter.
If you go to My BE she is there. So I waited 24 hours. But she still does not show up.
So then I tried to buy her a membership to see if that makes her appear - and have bought PAYG membership for her.
But I still can't enter. So I guess it's a passport validation issue.

If they want people to have a go and to PAYG it they need to make it easier. I am motivated to enter Stafford specifically and I actively want to support BE, But if a person sees the PAYG offer and thinks that sounds greatl I'll do a BE, they then have to complete a process that involves:

1) Registering
2) Choosing Membership
3) Buying membership
4) Registering a horse
5) Scanning and uploading a passport
6) Buying membership for the horse
7) Waiting x days till that all works
8) Finally entering.

And never minf the mind boggling complexity of trying to enter on behalf of an U18 yo.

Many people are simply not going to bother, especially when none of the steps are intuiive so you end up just going round and round in circles trying to understand what you need to do. Eg Fron the ENTER page you just can't see the horse. There is no link from there to the Register a Horse page. Or the Buy Horse Membership page or a helpful tip of what to do.

I get that these are affiliated comps. So you need to check details - though I have never had anyone check my horse against my passport at an event - but why not let you enter immediately and check afterwards? And then contact if there is a problem. The way insurance companies do. If you want to event a season of course once you are set up it gets easier. But if they are trying to attract the person just giving it a go as a one off, then it just isn't sensible to make it so hard.

Anyway - 24 hours in and I am not still not entered. Nor do I know if there is a problem with my validation or if it just has not happened yet so don't know if I need to do anything or just wait and enter tomorrow or the next day or next week sometime.....


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## McGrools (13 June 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Progress report....
Managed to log in - hurrah
Managed to buy PAYG membership - hurrah
Then it was not obvious what happens next. Tried to enter Stafford and realised that of course Lottie does not know up under 'horse'.
So I figured out how to register her but then still could not enter.
If you go to My BE she is there. So I waited 24 hours. But she still does not show up.
So then I tried to buy her a membership to see if that makes her appear - and have bought PAYG membership for her.
But I still can't enter. So I guess it's a passport validation issue.

If they want people to have a go and to PAYG it they need to make it easier. I am motivated to enter Stafford specifically and I actively want to support BE, But if a person sees the PAYG offer and thinks that sounds greatl I'll do a BE, they then have to complete a process that involves:

1) Registering
2) Choosing Membership
3) Buying membership
4) Registering a horse
5) Scanning and uploading a passport
6) Buying membership for the horse
7) Waiting x days till that all works
8) Finally entering.

And never minf the mind boggling complexity of trying to enter on behalf of an U18 yo.

Many people are simply not going to bother, especially when none of the steps are intuiive so you end up just going round and round in circles trying to understand what you need to do. Eg Fron the ENTER page you just can't see the horse. There is no link from there to the Register a Horse page. Or the Buy Horse Membership page or a helpful tip of what to do.

I get that these are affiliated comps. So you need to check details - though I have never had anyone check my horse against my passport at an event - but why not let you enter immediately and check afterwards? And then contact if there is a problem. The way insurance companies do. If you want to event a season of course once you are set up it gets easier. But if they are trying to attract the person just giving it a go as a one off, then it just isn't sensible to make it so hard.

Anyway - 24 hours in and I am not still not entered. Nor do I know if there is a problem with my validation or if it just has not happened yet so don't know if I need to do anything or just wait and enter tomorrow or the next day or next week sometime.....
		
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Yes agree completely. My patience with technology is very fragile. If you are going to make it difficult for me to give you my money then it really is 50/50 if i will bother.


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## Ambers Echo (14 June 2022)

I'm sure you are all thoroughly bored of my efforts to enter Stafford. (I know I am!)
But just to finish off the story... I got my validation. Hurrah. So on day 3 I was ready to enter.
I was then surprised to see it comes up with:

*Entry Booking
£1.20
Entry PAYG Fee
£10.00
Entry Registration
£80.95
Entry Start Fee
£17.45*

That's on top of the PAYG membership I bought for myself and the membership I bought for Lottie.
Total £140. I thought PAYG was meant to be cheaper?

Just like the multi-steps to entering, there is the 'multi-payments' for random things, What is 'PAYG entry fee'. Why an extra payment for that. Why is there another £17.45 start fee? I mean I know what it it but unaff don't charge it. So I'd forgotten about it.

You see £80 and think ok not bad. Then £30 PAYG for horse and rider. Ouch but ok £110 I can live with that. Suddenly it's £140 and it's just annoying.

Then the payment page said 'sorry page not found' when I hit PAY NOW so am still not entered. And actually am reconsidering..... After all that! But I am frustrated with the the lack of clarity. I don't even know whether if I enter a 2nd one it's another £140 or whether I don't have to pay that £30 again? If it's £140 every time I won't waste an entry on Stafford but save it for a really nice venue like Frickley. And also I should KNOW what it would cost next time and every time. It should be obvious.

The forced pause by the page crashing is making me think again about whether I really am going to pay £140. Probably but BE are not helping themselves in my view with how they go about the entry process. Main feedback, should anyone care, is 1) too complex, 2) too time consuming and therefore too many opportunities for epople to change their minds and 3) lack of clarity upfront about costs.


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## ester (14 June 2022)

It was my understanding you only pay the £30 once


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## I'm Dun (14 June 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			I'm sure you are all thoroughly bored of my efforts to enter Stafford. (I know I am!)
But just to finish off the story... I got my validation. Hurrah. So on day 3 I was ready to enter.
I was then surprised to see it comes up with:

*Entry Booking
£1.20
Entry PAYG Fee
£10.00
Entry Registration
£80.95
Entry Start Fee
£17.45*

That's on top of the PAYG membership I bought for myself and the membership I bought for Lottie.
Total £140. I thought PAYG was meant to be cheaper?

Just like the multi-steps to entering, there is the 'multi-payments' for random things, What is 'PAYG entry fee'. Why an extra payment for that. Why is there another £17.45 start fee? I mean I know what it it but unaff don't charge it. So I'd forgotten about it.

You see £80 and think ok not bad. Then £30 PAYG for horse and rider. Ouch but ok £110 I can live with that. Suddenly it's £140 and it's just annoying.

Then the payment page said 'sorry page not found' when I hit PAY NOW so am still not entered. And actually am reconsidering..... After all that! But I am frustrated with the the lack of clarity. I don't even know whether if I enter a 2nd one it's another £140 or whether I don't have to pay that £30 again? If it's £140 every time I won't waste an entry on Stafford but save it for a really nice venue like Frickley. And also I should KNOW what it would cost next time and every time. It should be obvious.

The forced pause by the page crashing is making me think again about whether I really am going to pay £140. Probably but BE are not helping themselves in my view with how they go about the entry process. Main feedback, should anyone care, is 1) too complex, 2) too time consuming and therefore too many opportunities for epople to change their minds and 3) lack of clarity upfront about costs.
		
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I'd have not entered on principle I think. Its really naughty of them to be advertising this as cheaper and showing one price when the reality is it's actually much more. £80 seems a reasonable price on par with unaffiliated, but to jump to £140 is a 75% increase if my rusty maths is correct!


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## Ambers Echo (14 June 2022)

To be fair to them they dropped abandonment insurance which was yet another extra. And got criticised for that. But of all the 'extras' I'd have dropped that LAST! But actually I would just have a single entry fee that covers it all. At least you know where you are, then.


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## Squeak (14 June 2022)

I thought the entry booking fee was really naughty when I saw it.  I understand having a booking fee or equivalent for sites like horse monkey where the venue is utilising an entry system but when BE have built their own at huge expense then surely there shouldn't be a cost of using it when entering?!

Is the expectation nowdays to pay the start fee at the same time as the entry fee?

I have to admit I was really debating doing a GoBE but I just can't get my head around paying over £100 for eventing especially with the cost of the petrol to get there.  I don't think I've ever felt so disillusioned with eventing.  The cost of it is so hard to justify and makes it so that you can do fewer events.  It then puts a huge amount of pressure on those few events that you are able to do.


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## Ambers Echo (14 June 2022)

Squeak said:



			Is the expectation nowdays to pay the start fee at the same time as the entry fee?
		
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Apparently so which completely defeats rhe object of it! I wasn't overly keen on handing over my tenner on the day but it vaguely made sense. Now it just does not at all.


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## RachelFerd (14 June 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Apparently so which completely defeats rhe object of it! I wasn't overly keen on handing over my tenner on the day but it vaguely made sense. Now it just does not at all.
		
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Oh the days of a £10 start fee..... long gone. I don't think they've been that low since about 2010  

I know we started paying them up-front because of COVID - but I think they should be renamed and brought into the main fee - but called be flagged as being a £17.45 refund for non-starters?


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## ycbm (14 June 2022)

£140 to do one unrecorded ODE at a riding centre/farm in Staffordshire?

Does anyone need to ask why BE is suffering reduced entries?
.


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## RachelFerd (14 June 2022)

ycbm said:



			£140 to do one unrecorded ODE at a riding centre/farm in Staffordshire?

Does anyone need to ask why BE is suffering reduced entries?
.
		
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That's not unrecorded - PAYG is recorded, with MERS and with prize money. 

And £30 of that £140 is the registration cost - so not the cost of the event. 

Clearly it would be possible to run there, cheaper in the GO BE class without paying the registration cost, but that isn't the choice that has been made by the entrant!


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## Ambers Echo (14 June 2022)

I'm not bothered about prize money (I wish!!) but if I did happen to go DC i'd want that to count towards Area Qualification which I don;t think GO BE does.

Last year Katie got her 2 DCs at BE90 in the U18s category and was super excited about Frickley regional champs. But never got her email about qualifying. I rang up and no-one knew why and I was told to just enter her and she'd be fine. it was only after about 6 calls the entry sec said 'oh U18s DCs don't count. Same course, same day, why not? But rules are rules and that was that. She did feel cheated though. If I did happen to go DC twice I'd want to qualify.

So the £30 is not payable each time then? So not the same as the old 'Day Ticket'? That does make it more worthwhile as I have already paid it and so don't need to worry about 'wasting it' on a less than super-exciting event. But the bottom line is it is TOO COMPLICATED.

People who don't find it complicated probably don't aree but I think a really interesting exercise would be for some ID bod to look at how many people start to enter an event and then don't bother in the end. I would be very surprised if they were not losing HUGE number of entrants just because people in the end cant be ar$ed.

I still remember being in literal tears of frustration trying to enter Katie for the first time. It took DAYS and multiple calls to the office and we were running out of time and I really nearly just said 'forget it' but her friends were competing so I persevered.

Whereas if I decide on a whim to enter - say - Epworth or Eland unaff, then 2 minutes later I would be entered and paid up. You are not going to lose anyone that way. They are massively shooting themselves in the foot imo.


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## RachelFerd (14 June 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			I'm not bothered about prize money (I wish!!) but if I did happen to go DC i'd want that to count towards Area Qualification which I don;t think GO BE does.

Last year Katie got her 2 DCs at BE90 in the U18s category and was super excited about Frickley regional champs. But never got her email about qualifying. I rang up and no-one knew why and I was told to just enter her and she'd be fine. it was only after about 6 calls the entry sec said 'oh U18s DCs don't count. Same course, same day, why not? But rules are rules and that was that. She did feel cheated though. If I did happen to go DC twice I'd want to qualify.

So the £30 is not payable each time then? So not the same as the old 'Day Ticket'? That does make it more worthwhile as I have already paid it and so don't need to worry about 'wasting it' on a less than super-exciting event. But the bottom line is it is TOO COMPLICATED.

People who don't find it complicated probably don't aree but I think a really interesting exercise would be for some ID bod to look at how many people start to enter an event and then don't bother in the end. I would be very surprised if they were not losing HUGE number of entrants just because people in the end cant be ar$ed.

I still remember being in literal tears of frustration trying to enter Katie for the first time. It took DAYS and multiple calls to the office and we were running out of time and I really nearly just said 'forget it' but her friends were competing so I persevered.

Whereas if I decide on a whim to enter - say - Epworth or Eland unaff, then 2 minutes later I would be entered and paid up. You are not going to lose anyone that way. They are massively shooting themselves in the foot imo.
		
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Yes - the £30 is one off. So any future entry is cheaper. I agree its all quite complicated - I think because they've tried to be reactive and respond to the various issues this year, but that's led to even more options than people can begin to fathom. And now you are registered, it should be a lot easier for each subsequent entry. But I do get the pain factor with the initial start-up.


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## Michen (14 June 2022)

This is making me smile a bit as I’m currently investigating eventing costs in the states. 

We have no idea how good we have it here! Why is £100 plus for an event considered outrageous? Do we really think these venues are making a huge profit?


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## Michen (14 June 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			I'm not bothered about prize money (I wish!!) but if I did happen to go DC i'd want that to count towards Area Qualification which I don;t think GO BE does.

Last year Katie got her 2 DCs at BE90 in the U18s category and was super excited about Frickley regional champs. But never got her email about qualifying. I rang up and no-one knew why and I was told to just enter her and she'd be fine. it was only after about 6 calls the entry sec said 'oh U18s DCs don't count. Same course, same day, why not? But rules are rules and that was that. She did feel cheated though. If I did happen to go DC twice I'd want to qualify.

So the £30 is not payable each time then? So not the same as the old 'Day Ticket'? That does make it more worthwhile as I have already paid it and so don't need to worry about 'wasting it' on a less than super-exciting event. But the bottom line is it is TOO COMPLICATED.

People who don't find it complicated probably don't aree but I think a really interesting exercise would be for some ID bod to look at how many people start to enter an event and then don't bother in the end. I would be very surprised if they were not losing HUGE number of entrants just because people in the end cant be ar$ed.

I still remember being in literal tears of frustration trying to enter Katie for the first time. It took DAYS and multiple calls to the office and we were running out of time and I really nearly just said 'forget it' but her friends were competing so I persevered.

Whereas if I decide on a whim to enter - say - Epworth or Eland unaff, then 2 minutes later I would be entered and paid up. You are not going to lose anyone that way. They are massively shooting themselves in the foot imo.
		
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Totally get this. The system itself is useless and overly complex and outdated.


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## RachelFerd (14 June 2022)

Michen said:



			This is making me smile a bit as I’m currently investigating eventing costs in the states.

We have no idea how good we have it here! Why is £100 plus for an event considered outrageous? Do we really think these venues are making a huge profit?
		
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I posted a thread about US eventing costs on this forum. Eye watering - makes UK eventing look like pocket money.


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## ycbm (15 June 2022)

Michen said:



			This is making me smile a bit as I’m currently investigating eventing costs in the states.

We have no idea how good we have it here! Why is £100 plus for an event considered outrageous? Do we really think these venues are making a huge profit?
		
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I don't think anyone thinks they are making a huge profit out of one event,  just trying to understand why BE is so much more expensive than unaffiliated at the same venue.
.


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## lannerch (15 June 2022)

ycbm said:



			I don't think anyone thinks they are making a huge profit out of one event,  just trying to understand why BE is so much more expensive than unaffiliated at the same venue.
.
		
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I don’t think it is , but I suspect the answer is to be a BE event the course has to be maintained to a certain standard , so money is spent to achieve that standard . Once spent an extra unaffiliated event at the same venue costs relatively a lot less as the standard is already maintained for Be , plus the unaffiliated event will not have to have thd same amount of officials, vets , drs on call etc.


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## ycbm (15 June 2022)

lannerch said:



			I suspect the answer is to be a BE event the course has to be maintained to a certain standard , so money is spent to achieve that standard . Once spent an extra unaffiliated event at the same venue costs relatively a lot less as the standard is already maintained for Be
		
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This is a claim that has been made over and over again on this and other threads and hasn't been able to be substantiated. The courses that also run unaffiliated are in use year round for training and for unaffiliated ODE and Hunter Trials. The vast majority of the revenue generated by these courses over a year  is for unaffiliated activities.  It seems to me to be far more likely that it is the unaffiliated stuff that is paying for the course to be maintained,  not the BE.


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## ycbm (15 June 2022)

lannerch said:



			, plus the unaffiliated event will not have to have thd same amount of officials, vets , drs on call etc.
		
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Then BE needs to find out how they stay legal and satisfy their insurers and spend less money like that.
.


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## Michen (15 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I posted a thread about US eventing costs on this forum. Eye watering - makes UK eventing look like pocket money.
		
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Yep I saw. Tbf, it does seem state dependent, but yep it rather puts things into perspective.


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## shortstuff99 (15 June 2022)

Also I think costs come into the admin side. I am a XC scorer, scoring for BE, ground jury etc is paid (or at least it was haven't done it since covid). While it is voluntary at unaffiliated. That saves lots of money.


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## Tiddlypom (15 June 2022)

Where will all the unpaid volunteers come from for unaffiliated? 

I’ve done RC events run by my own clubs as help days, and BE events as a volunteer, but I wouldn’t volunteer for an unaff event at a show centre.


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## shortstuff99 (15 June 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			Where will all the unpaid volunteers come from for unaffiliated?

I’ve done RC events run by my own clubs as help days, and BE events as a volunteer, but I wouldn’t volunteer for an unaff event at a show centre.
		
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Normally they 'pay' volunteers via hire vouchers.


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## Squeak (15 June 2022)

Just seen that Swalcliffe UA has been cancelled due to lack of entries.  Possibly they were hit by running the same weekend as a new UA venue in the same series only 40 minutes away but I think it's the first UA event I've seen cancelled.


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## Michen (15 June 2022)

Unaff having to cancel too. I do think venues shoot themselves in the foot. I just entered a new one- Bengrove- after seeing in the comments they intend to water if needed to ensure good ground. 

I wouldn’t have entered if I hadn’t seen that. Why not advertise that in the posting?


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## spacefaer (15 June 2022)

Swalcliffe were also struggling for fence judges - my timeline was full of shared requests for people to help.  From memory, they were saying there were only 150 entered so it wouldn't be a long day.


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## Tiddlypom (15 June 2022)

shortstuff99 said:



			Normally they 'pay' volunteers via hire vouchers.
		
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That's true, I usually get a choice of a voucher for a farm ride (£15) or a bottle of wine (a lot less than £15). For BE FJ, that is for a 10 hour day plus travel, which works out at a return of £1.50 per hour if I opt for the farm ride voucher, or rather less p/h for the wine. Plus my diesel to get there.


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## Ambers Echo (15 June 2022)

I’m happy to volunteer just to keep the show on the road. Though if venues don’t look after me I don’t go back! Eland and Somerford are great. chatsworth was awful. Never again.


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## I'm Dun (15 June 2022)

I saw some comments saying PC areas were on at the same time as Swalcliffe so that's probably had an impact too.


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## Elf On A Shelf (15 June 2022)

I don't know how many BE events there are in Scotland but Burgie has just announced that this year is their last. There will be no Burgie 2023. It does seem that Scottish competitors are once again left behind by big organisations in favour of the South.


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## Lexi_ (15 June 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			I’m happy to volunteer just to keep the show on the road. Though if venues don’t look after me I don’t go back! Eland and Somerford are great. chatsworth was awful. Never again.
		
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That’s why Bold Heath is on my Nope list.


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## Elf On A Shelf (15 June 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			I’m happy to volunteer just to keep the show on the road. Though if venues don’t look after me I don’t go back! Eland and Somerford are great. chatsworth was awful. Never again.
		
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I think a lot of places are still stuck in the dark ages of people volunteering and expecting nothing in return so they don't offer more than tea or coffee at a push. 

I have always been generally well looked after when stewarding/judging in the show ring and always have my food and drink provided for me and a goody bag if I have been judging. I could ask for expenses for judging but I don't when I am going less than an hour somewhere. I have never been offered expenses stewarding. The 2 days I did for the driving trials put me off them for life. It was so badly organised on the volunteer front I was left twiddling my thumbs for the majority of the time. The 1st day I wasn't required, nor were quite a lot of people but they didn't want to tell anyone to go home so found most people completely pointless jobs. Day 2 on the xc course was one of the most boring days of my life. We got tea/coffee when we got there and that was it. I did not return for day 3, I couldn't! I would have died of utter boredom! 

At the shows I have run I have always made sure my stewards are well looked after and will continue to do so. They will always come back then!

P.s. If anyone fancies stewarding Shetlands for me in September in Fife then drop me a line! I will be a man down this year due to my right hand woman inconveniently having her first sprog due in August! How selfish of her 😂😂😂 she could have planned it better - for like January 😂😂😂


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## TPO (15 June 2022)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			I don't know how many BE events there are in Scotland but Burgie has just announced that this year is their last. There will be no Burgie 2023. It does seem that Scottish competitors are once again left behind by big organisations in favour of the South.
		
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Forgandenny 2 is off too (but not permanently cancelled).

Doesn't seem right that everyone pays the same membership when there are a lot less events in Scotland.


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## Elf On A Shelf (15 June 2022)

TPO said:



			Forgandenny 2 is off too (but not permanently cancelled).

Doesn't seem right that everyone pays the same membership when there are a lot less events in Scotland.
		
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It's the same with everything. Scotland gets the short straw in favour of middle-southern England. Hoys qualifiers, Olympic Qualifiers, big dressage finals etc are all down south south. The North and Scotland is often disregarded as they don't always pull the numbers in to get the levies so the main operators go where the money is greatest.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (15 June 2022)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			It's the same with everything. Scotland gets the short straw in favour of middle-southern England. Hoys qualifiers, Olympic Qualifiers, big dressage finals etc are all down south south. The North and Scotland is often disregarded as they don't always pull the numbers in to get the levies so the main operators go where the money is greatest.
		
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*cough* hardly any HOYS qualifiers in the south, most are a minimum of 3 hrs north or west from London area,  best place to live is north of the Midlands,  the bulk are around there. Same with Olympia equals too. Nearest OQ is 2 hrs from me, next is over 4 hrs hike.  Those in Kent and Sussex are heartily fed up too.


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## Elf On A Shelf (15 June 2022)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			*cough* hardly any HOYS qualifiers in the south, most are a minimum of 3 hrs north or west from London area,  best place to live is north of the Midlands,  the bulk are around there. Same with Olympia equals too. Nearest OQ is 2 hrs from me, next is over 4 hrs hike.  Those in Kent and Sussex are heartily fed up too.
		
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 We have 1 set of Hunter, Coloured, SHP, M&M Minis, a non-complete set of Open M&M, 3 extra M&M, M&M workers, Plaited Workers, Heavy Horse, Cuddy. No Riding Horses, Hacks, Cobs or Show Ponies. That's for the entire of Scotland. Beyond that you are looking at 3-4 hours to Cumberland County. Then over 4 minimum for anything else. Though we did get a Search For A Star and a Racehorse qualifier up here for the first time in more than 20 years last weekend! 

I hate it when they go for the money and not the fair split of qualifiers. Its not fair on the ponies to have to keep travelling for tickets. I know that's owners choice. But in the space of 1 week there is Lincoln Countrly, Cheshire County then the Highland so the ponies tend to do all 3 on the way up before heading back down.

Eta - according to people who know more about such things than me that will be Scotland down to 5 BE courses after this year. Floors Castle in the borders, Hopetoun House at the Firth Of Forth, Kirriemuir in Angus, Blair Castle at the top of Perthshire and I don't know where the other one is.


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## EventingMum (15 June 2022)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			I don't know how many BE events there are in Scotland but Burgie has just announced that this year is their last. There will be no Burgie 2023. It does seem that Scottish competitors are once again left behind by big organisations in favour of the South.
		
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So sad, even though it was a long drive we always made the effort to go to Burgie when we were competing. There are so many Scottish BE events no longer running: Scone, Eglington, Auchinleck, Hendersyde, Brechin, Aswanley, Oatridge, Gleneagles, Strathallan and more. With fuel prices as they are travelling further afield to get a grassroots run makes it a very expensive exercise and once you get to intermediate it's even worse.


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## spacefaer (15 June 2022)

@Elf On A Shelf there used to be a Scottish circuit that the English eventers would come up and stay for - Auchinleck, Eglinton, Floors culminating in either Burgie or Blair (can't remember exactly)

That was back when eventing was fun!


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## EventingMum (15 June 2022)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Eta - according to people who know more about such things than me that will be Scotland down to 5 BE courses after this year. Floors Castle in the borders, Hopetoun House at the Firth Of Forth, Kirriemuir in Angus, Blair Castle at the top of Perthshire and I don't know where the other one is.
		
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Forgandenny but the second event there scheduled for next month is cancelled due to the organiser having an accident.


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## Patterdale (15 June 2022)

Blair is finishing!!?


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## Elf On A Shelf (15 June 2022)

Patterdale said:



			Blair is finishing!!?
		
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No Burgie


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## Patterdale (15 June 2022)

Oh someone said Blair in an earlier post. 

Sad about Burgie, great memories from there. Always a brilliant atmosphere and the Saturday nights were so much fun. If you made the trip then you were going to enjoy it! 

All the Scottish events were great though. Loved Thirlestone, and Floors remains my favourite course to ride round ever. Hopetoun was another great one. Really sad to have lost them.


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## Elf On A Shelf (16 June 2022)

Patterdale said:



			Oh someone said Blair in an earlier post. 

Sad about Burgie, great memories from there. Always a brilliant atmosphere and the Saturday nights were so much fun. If you made the trip then you were going to enjoy it! 

All the Scottish events were great though. Loved Thirlestone, and Floors remains my favourite course to ride round ever. Hopetoun was another great one. Really sad to have lost them.
		
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Floors is running again. Not sure if they plan on an international next year or the year after but someone else has taken over the reins and is putting wheels in motion. Floors stopped for a couple of years not only for covid but due to the owner dying and his family not really wanting to do the work for it that he did. Hopetoun still runs. They were running last weekend I think.


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## Patterdale (16 June 2022)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			Floors is running again. Not sure if they plan on an international next year or the year after but someone else has taken over the reins and is putting wheels in motion. Floors stopped for a couple of years not only for covid but due to the owner dying and his family not really wanting to do the work for it that he did. Hopetoun still runs. They were running last weekend I think.
		
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Oh I’m glad someone else has taken over Floors. I live much more southward now so am a bit out of touch. Hopetoun did definitely stop though so I’m very glad to hear it’s been revived! Always used to be a good attacking track before a step up.


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## lannerch (16 June 2022)

I’ve heard talk cholmondely is going to cancel hope if it’s true it’s not because of Kelsall’s unaffiliated ode the same weekend.


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## RachelFerd (16 June 2022)

lannerch said:



			I’ve heard talk cholmondely is going to cancel hope if it’s true it’s not because of Kelsall’s unaffiliated ode the same weekend.
		
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Highly annoying if it is - was going to be another run for the 5yo on lovely undulating grassland. I won't run him at Kelsall after the ground conditions in the Spring.


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## VRIN (16 June 2022)

There ballot date is not till 7th July it seems a bit early to be thinking of cancelling


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## Tiddlypom (16 June 2022)

lannerch said:



			I’ve heard talk cholmondely is going to cancel hope if it’s true it’s not because of Kelsall’s unaffiliated ode the same weekend.
		
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Kelsall unaff is now full for the Sat and the wait list is filling up fast. They did say that they'd run both days if they got enough entries.

Cholmondeley is the lovely sort of parkland setting with a mini stately home overlooking it that you'd think that people would flock to. And Cheshire is such a horsey area.

ETA We walk the dog regularly in the Cholmondeley grounds, and there's been no evidence yet of any new XC course building. The organisers may want to call it early so that they don't pay out any more than they have to for event prep?


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## RachelFerd (16 June 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			Kelsall unaff is now full for the Sat and the wait list is filling up fast. They did say that they'd run both days if they got enough entries.

Cholmondeley is the lovely sort of parkland setting with a mini stately home overlooking it that you'd think that people would flock to. And Cheshire is such a horsey area.

ETA We walk the dog regularly in the Cholmondeley grounds, and there's been no evidence yet of any new XC course building. The organisers may want to call it early so that they don't pay out any more than they have to for event prep?
		
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I'm so annoyed by this whole thing. *If* this is the outcome - the people who are bleating on about unaffiliated 'creating more choice' are completely wrong - unaffiliated is creating less choice, by allowing equestrian centres to monopolise the market and killing off the one-off events, which are the best thing about eventing - the variety of places, land and challenges that you get to ride around. I do not want to ride around the same courses day in day out. I do not want to be forced to enter events 6 weeks in advance because they've decided to have 'first come first served' entries - and I do not want a world where events are scheduled in total chaos, with no broader planning perspective to make the diary make sense. May everyone who has entered the Kelsall event get a papercut and stub their toes. Repeatedly.


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## palo1 (16 June 2022)

I was just idly reading this thread when I remembered that almost 20 years ago it basically cost £100 for a day's eventing.  I can't give a breakdown of costs for that but amongst my friends and I eventing at that time, that is the sum we always worked to.  Of course things change but in my view training has really intensified over the years and stuff like tack has become far more sophisticated and complex (ie expensive) so it might look to some that eventing is not quite as expensive as folks think. It is a huge shame that there is this tension and difficulty between aff and unaff stuff too.


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## ycbm (16 June 2022)

palo1 said:



			I was just idly reading this thread when I remembered that almost 20 years ago it basically cost £100 for a day's eventing.  I can't give a breakdown of costs for that but amongst my friends and I eventing at that time, that is the sum we always worked to.  Of course things change but in my view training has really intensified over the years and stuff like tack has become far more sophisticated and complex (ie expensive) so it might look to some that eventing is not quite as expensive as folks think. It is a huge shame that there is this tension and difficulty between aff and unaff stuff too.
		
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I was eventing at the same time and my figure was £80,  but that included diesel costs for up to 2 hours travel and a burger. 
.


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## palo1 (16 June 2022)

ycbm said:



			I was eventing at the same time and my figure was £80,  but that included diesel costs for up to 2 hours travel and a burger.
.
		
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Yeah, I think ours included filling diesel tanks etc and maybe the extra £20 was for a one-off pre event dressage lesson lol!! We didn't have a load of events on the doorstep either (and definitely not now).  I guess that 'all in' cost was proportionally lower but I still remember thinking it was quite a chunk of money (especially when things didn't go well).  However there were also some pretty good local events as an alternative; hunter trials, 2 phase events, decent local shows etc.  Those all seemed quite accessible financially too, even if eventing was a high cost.


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## TPO (16 June 2022)

Just seen a post about Aske. They are running be90- intermediate and "unregistered" 80 & 90. They are urging everyone considering entering to do so before 21 June as they will make the call then whether to run.

I assume that means they haven't been inundated with entries so far.


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## Ambers Echo (16 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I'm so annoyed by this whole thing. *If* this is the outcome - the people who are bleating on about unaffiliated 'creating more choice' are completely wrong - unaffiliated is creating less choice, by allowing equestrian centres to monopolise the market and killing off the one-off events, which are the best thing about eventing - the variety of places, land and challenges that you get to ride around. I do not want to ride around the same courses day in day out. I do not want to be forced to enter events 6 weeks in advance because they've decided to have 'first come first served' entries - and I do not want a world where events are scheduled in total chaos, with no broader planning perspective to make the diary make sense. May everyone who has entered the Kelsall event get a papercut and stub their toes. Repeatedly.
		
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I've boycotted the Kelsall event for exactly this reason. I know I complain about BE but it is becasue I want BE to thrive so the solvable problems frustrate me. I want them to stop shooting themselves in the foot. I’m cross Kelsall went head to head with Cholmondely. Just why?


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## millitiger (16 June 2022)

Cholmondeley just announced they have cancelled planned BE and unaffiliated events for this season.


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## Tiddlypom (16 June 2022)

Oh bum, where was that announced?

Have the other events organised by Musketeer gone ahead this season?


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## shortstuff99 (16 June 2022)

The owner of Cholmondeley is also the land owner of Houghton Hall in Norfolk. Houghton had really good entries but is international only.


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## RachelFerd (16 June 2022)

millitiger said:



			Cholmondeley just announced they have cancelled planned BE and unaffiliated events for this season.
		
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FFS!


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## ester (16 June 2022)

houghton did


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## ester (16 June 2022)

I must have had a reading delay sorry!


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## Squeak (16 June 2022)

palo1 said:



			Yeah, I think ours included filling diesel tanks etc and maybe the extra £20 was for a one-off pre event dressage lesson lol!! We didn't have a load of events on the doorstep either (and definitely not now).  I guess that 'all in' cost was proportionally lower but I still remember thinking it was quite a chunk of money (especially when things didn't go well).  However there were also some pretty good local events as an alternative; hunter trials, 2 phase events, decent local shows etc.  Those all seemed quite accessible financially too, even if eventing was a high cost.
		
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The problem is that now you’re looking at £200 min just for entry fee and diesel and more like £250 by the time you’ve bought volunteer/ unpaid groom a burger and diesel has gone up in price a bit more.

It’s a huge amount of money for one day.


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## Patterdale (16 June 2022)

Absolutely gutted about Cholmondeley. 

I do think fuel cost is a large part of this. But the thing is that once these events are gone, we may never get them back. 
People don’t appreciate the old parkland events enough. I for one don’t want to run over portables on all weather equestrian centres.


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## teapot (16 June 2022)

Patterdale said:



			Absolutely gutted about Cholmondeley.

I do think fuel cost is a large part of this. But the thing is that once these events are gone, we may never get them back.
People don’t appreciate the old parkland events enough. I for one don’t want to run over portables on all weather equestrian centres.
		
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Ian Stark mentioned this in his piece about Bramham in relation to its impact on horse and rider experience…


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## RachelFerd (16 June 2022)

Patterdale said:



			Absolutely gutted about Cholmondeley.

I do think fuel cost is a large part of this. But the thing is that once these events are gone, we may never get them back.
People don’t appreciate the old parkland events enough. I for one don’t want to run over portables on all weather equestrian centres.
		
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I have to say - I've run out of patience. I think people might be very stupid??? I like running at a wide variety events with a wide variety of challenges. I like a progressive system where 8 can take horses from the beginning to the international levels in one clear calendar. I'm being stuffed over now by unaffiliated competitors and I'm getting quite angry about it. I'm trying to do this on a budget too, but I have ambitions beyond a 100 which become inaccessible when the system doesn't work.


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## RachelFerd (17 June 2022)

Squeak said:



			The problem is that now you’re looking at £200 min just for entry fee and diesel and more like £250 by the time you’ve bought volunteer/ unpaid groom a burger and diesel has gone up in price a bit more.

It’s a huge amount of money for one day.
		
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Well, as a local to cholmondeley it wouldn't have been that much - but I'll end up having to spend a lot more and drive a lot further to find somewhere to compete because of this cancellation. Unaff events cause the aff calendar to become *less* affordable and accessible.


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## palo1 (17 June 2022)

Squeak said:



			The problem is that now you’re looking at £200 min just for entry fee and diesel and more like £250 by the time you’ve bought volunteer/ unpaid groom a burger and diesel has gone up in price a bit more.

It’s a huge amount of money for one day.
		
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Yes, I get that absolutely but that possibly (I don't know!) only translates as an equivalent  or slightly higher cost to those of 2 decades ago.  I know it is utterly beyond my finances.  I just recalled that eventing has certainly never been cheap though there were far more of the lovely one-off, grand old house style events put on.  To me it seems a real shame that increasingly eventing is restricted to more permanent/EC type fixtures but I don't event and it really isn't my beef these days!


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## Tiddlypom (17 June 2022)

Meanwhile, Cholmondeley is busy setting up for their fixture this weekend (Sat and Sun) in the Castle series of triathlons. Some of the entry fees for that are pretty eye watering.

The first two pics (taken yesterday) show where the SJ would have been held. It is the most lovely setting for an event.

https://endurancecui.active.com/new...e-4c70-90dc-afcc414d1e0e&_p=36831098909889703


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## TPO (17 June 2022)

Howick has cancelled their second day and moved all classes to the Saturday. Apart from BE90 open there are spaces in every class.

Another not good sign...


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## Matafleur (17 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I have to say - I've run out of patience. I think people might be very stupid??? I like running at a wide variety events with a wide variety of challenges. I like a progressive system where 8 can take horses from the beginning to the international levels in one clear calendar. I'm being stuffed over now by unaffiliated competitors and I'm getting quite angry about it. I'm trying to do this on a budget too, but I have ambitions beyond a 100 which become inaccessible when the system doesn't work.
		
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Goodness, poor you!!

I never comment on HHO these days but honestly, this comment! I've just read your comment on another thread that you are "fortunately isolated from cost of living rises".  Has it occurred to you that other people are not?? No-one owes it to you to enter events so that they'll run. Unaff near me is also cancelling so it's just possible that people have decided they can't afford it right now.

The utter entitlement of some people on this thread is astounding. People aren't thinking about whether they still be able to event at "insert lovely parkland castle event here", in many cases they are thinking about whether they can feed themselves, get to work, heat their house this winter. And not just very poor people either. All those people that scrape their spare cash together to do a few events each year don't have that spare cash anymore and things are going to get worse before they get better.

Maybe we'll have a season or 2 of declining events while the market self corrects but if (big if) it's a viable model then it will recover again in time. I actually think BE have bent over backwards to try and improve things this season but lots of people still can't afford it.

To say that people might be very stupid to not enter this events is pretty damn rude.


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## milliepops (17 June 2022)

If people are entering equestrian events of any kind I dispute the suggestion that they're making heating vs eating decisions.

There are still a lot of people with enough spare spends to go eventing, that much is clear so I think the concern about a decline in the foundations of the eventing calendar is still valid.  Over the years we've seen how these old parkland type venues close and simply don't start up again, for the most part once they are gone,  they are gone.


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## Snowfilly (17 June 2022)

Matafleur said:



			Goodness, poor you!!

I never comment on HHO these days but honestly, this comment! I've just read your comment on another thread that you are "fortunately isolated from cost of living rises".  Has it occurred to you that other people are not?? No-one owes it to you to enter events so that they'll run. Unaff near me is also cancelling so it's just possible that people have decided they can't afford it right now.

The utter entitlement of some people on this thread is astounding. People aren't thinking about whether they still be able to event at "insert lovely parkland castle event here", in many cases they are thinking about whether they can feed themselves, get to work, heat their house this winter. And not just very poor people either. All those people that scrape their spare cash together to do a few events each year don't have that spare cash anymore and things are going to get worse before they get better.

Maybe we'll have a season or 2 of declining events while the market self corrects but if (big if) it's a viable model then it will recover again in time. I actually think BE have bent over backwards to try and improve things this season but lots of people still can't afford it.

To say that people might be very stupid to not enter this events is pretty damn rude.
		
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I agree. I’ve never done BE because there’s no point in subsidising someone else’s season of events when there’s only one / maybe two in travelling distance of me, so I’m one of those heathens who stick to UA and ruin it for everyone else by making BE have to cancel their events or heaven forbid, actually change their way of running the sport, but the fact is, most people are struggling more and things like affiliation fees will be the first to go in a lot of cases.

To mock people who decide not to compete at affiliated any more but who still want to have fun, or who can’t afford the petrol to travel half a day to an event but still want a run locally is a very nasty, elitist attitude.


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## milliepops (17 June 2022)

Putting aside what is clearly an outburst coming from immense frustration at the whole situation... 
the sport seems to be fracturing in a way that is just going to end up killing it. i can see why RF is tearing her hair out. on the one hand you've got course designers hinting that even pros are arriving at top level events a bit unprepared, on the other hand you've got the grass roots that wants to have guaranteed good ground, guaranteed running with no expensive cancellations, doing stuff on surfaces, non scary jumps or ones they can train around in between times and that can only take place at equestrian centres. The very nature of the thing is that letting the eventing calendar coalesce around ECs means that the horses bound for the top will have their educational possibilities limited IMO.  

Due to the costs and infrastructure needed the only way that the top level sport (or pathway to the top) can be sustained is if the grass roots props it up.  So while I completely understand that if you're an amateur with one horse who is gasping at the cost of filling up the lorry then you will naturally want to make choices that give you a good chance of having a fun day and not maxing out the credit card... there's a bigger picture that we have to be aware of. i think. easy for me to say i know, i gave up eventing years ago entirely due to costs.


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## Ambers Echo (17 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I have to say - I've run out of patience. I think people might be very stupid??? I like running at a wide variety events with a wide variety of challenges. I like a progressive system where 8 can take horses from the beginning to the international levels in one clear calendar. I'm being stuffed over now by unaffiliated competitors and I'm getting quite angry about it. I'm trying to do this on a budget too, but I have ambitions beyond a 100 which become inaccessible when the system doesn't work.
		
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I totally understand your frustration but as I said in post 53, I really don't think getting angry with unaff competitors is helpful. People will look at what is on offer and go with what suits them best.  Unaff eventing is very problematic and I am part of that because I have chosen that route myself this season.

 But it was frankly a no brainer this year:  cheaper, better protected and better competition structure. PLUS ease of entry. 

There is simply no point BE venues saying 'enter now, try PAYG' near ballot date as it takes 3 days minimum to register and enter! Somerfords 'Decision to Run' post was I think 1-2 days before they pulled the plug. I could not have entered even if I wanted to. Same for anyone else who was not already a member wth a validated horse. Which is just ridiculous.

So BE needs to make BE more attractive and less complicated and work cooperatively with venues who also want to run unaff. Not blame riders for opting to do other things.


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## RachelFerd (17 June 2022)

Matafleur said:



			Goodness, poor you!!

I never comment on HHO these days but honestly, this comment! I've just read your comment on another thread that you are "fortunately isolated from cost of living rises".  Has it occurred to you that other people are not?? No-one owes it to you to enter events so that they'll run. Unaff near me is also cancelling so it's just possible that people have decided they can't afford it right now.

The utter entitlement of some people on this thread is astounding. People aren't thinking about whether they still be able to event at "insert lovely parkland castle event here", in many cases they are thinking about whether they can feed themselves, get to work, heat their house this winter. And not just very poor people either. All those people that scrape their spare cash together to do a few events each year don't have that spare cash anymore and things are going to get worse before they get better.

Maybe we'll have a season or 2 of declining events while the market self corrects but if (big if) it's a viable model then it will recover again in time. I actually think BE have bent over backwards to try and improve things this season but lots of people still can't afford it.

To say that people might be very stupid to not enter this events is pretty damn rude.
		
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Fair enough - very annoyed outburst on my part. I think people are being a bit stupid when they make a choice to enter an unaffiliated event instead of using an opportunity to run at a 'GO BE' affiliated event. I'm getting annoyed because I see BE working really hard to resolve the problems - being creative and doing everything they can - and it still not being enough.

I don't think anyone is stupid for not entering at all if the cost of living crisis is hitting.

I'm insulated from cost of living in that my income stays stable against inflation - but i'm not insulated against suddenly finding I have to drive an extra 200 miles just to get to an event. And I'm reaching the point, looking at the calendar, where I might as well just not bother eventing the young horse until next year because I can't get any consistent runs in. In global scale of problems, it isn't big. But the reason I go to work is to fund eventing, so it all seems rather pointless!


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## RachelFerd (17 June 2022)

milliepops said:



			Putting aside what is clearly an outburst coming from immense frustration at the whole situation...
the sport seems to be fracturing in a way that is just going to end up killing it. i can see why RF is tearing her hair out. on the one hand you've got course designers hinting that even pros are arriving at top level events a bit unprepared, on the other hand you've got the grass roots that wants to have guaranteed good ground, guaranteed running with no expensive cancellations, doing stuff on surfaces, non scary jumps or ones they can train around in between times and that can only take place at equestrian centres. The very nature of the thing is that letting the eventing calendar coalesce around ECs means that the horses bound for the top will have their educational possibilities limited IMO. 

Due to the costs and infrastructure needed the only way that the top level sport (or pathway to the top) can be sustained is if the grass roots props it up.  So while I completely understand that if you're an amateur with one horse who is gasping at the cost of filling up the lorry then you will naturally want to make choices that give you a good chance of having a fun day and not maxing out the credit card... there's a bigger picture that we have to be aware of. i think. easy for me to say i know, i gave up eventing years ago entirely due to costs.
		
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Thank you for once again articulating what's bothering me in a much more successful way! 

I feel like I've been watching the sport fracturing for the last 2 years - pretty much from the moment the Cotswold Cup was announced actually. 

It's sad to admit - but I feel like if I can admit it anywhere, its here, because this is the competing section of a horse forum after all - that my biggest passion that I've had all my life is eventing. Ever since I went to Badminton when I was 7, I have absolutely loved eventing. And despite being a bit rubbish, and for a long time not having much in the way of resources to throw at it, I've always been plugging away at progressing in eventing - trying to gradually improve myself and my horses performances and just creep my way up the levels. I've always been reassured that this isn't a sport that times out on you - you can be in your 60s and still riding at the very top - so I've been happily holding onto a little thread of a dream that one day I could ride around a 4* like Bramham or Blenheim. Just once!! And whilst I am only making slow progress, in the last couple of years a few things have started to come together and I've had the absolute thrill of riding around some of the bigger 2*s and starting to see a pathway to how I could move up to the next level, with a bit more work, too. Every single bit of spare money and time that I have is thrown at the process of training and preparing for eventing. I love the whole process of training horses of the specific challenges of all three phases - it's infinitely fascinating. 

But what I hadn't factored on in having enough time to reach my goals, was that the sport would kill itself along the way. Now more than ever, a chasm is opening up between the 80/90/100 and Novice+ parts of the sport - and it shouldn't be. The introduction of FEI 1* (105) should have been utilised as a bridge to help join things up. But without the grassroots levels providing a pyramid for the upper end of the sport, the top end will get much more expensive and inaccessible. We'll lose that thread of progression that lets you educate young horses to prepare them for the higher levels. We'll lose all of the incredibly varied terrain that we are SO lucky to get to ride around at our current parkland events.

But even worse, if the top end does get more expensive and inaccessible, we'll slowly lose the big iconic events that we love. And without the inspiration coming from seeing those top performances, kids won't be inspired to take up eventing. Where does that leave this all? 

Maybe I will become a mad eccentric old lady in the distant future and build my own giant eventing paradise somewhere where the land is cheap and try and keep the memory of it going when everyone else has forgotten it existed?

Am I overreacting - probably. I hope so. I hope that things can bounce back once cost of living situation has righted itself. I really want people to get behind BE and build a better, more inclusive sport for everyone.


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## milliepops (17 June 2022)

I completely get your POV RF, though i no longer event i have very happy memories of competing at wonderful venues that are long gone now, and the exhilaration of walking courses shared with I/A riders and getting to watch them at the same show, it made it aspirational and relatable (in a way that watching badminton wasn't)

I get the same feeling watching normal day shows BD because i have seen and experienced how you can "creep up the levels". if that got fractured in BD i would feel similarly gutted about losing that faint trail of breadcrumbs that shows an ambitious person how they can progress too.  You need those normal day shows where CDJ competes against Joe Bloggs on his cob because otherwise there's no structure for getting horses or riders to CDIs.


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## TPO (17 June 2022)

Didn't BE run for longer as novice + then prenovice + than it has when offering 90 then 80?

I've lost all concept of time so that might not be the case. But if it is then there is something wrong with their business model.

"Back in the day" there were more events too.

So something (or many things) is to blame beyond low level eventers going to unaff over BE because that group didn't exist originally.

The image portrayed on this thread that unaff is dangerous and a couple of oil cans with an old fence post complete with nails across it. The unaff around here are of a high calibre and safety is of the highest importance.

Look at the struggle AE had just trying to register and enter an event on the website that was ££££££ of members money.

It's kind of like asking why the turkeys aren't voting for Christmas. Maybe BE need to do more on making their "christmas" more appealing.

Complaining because other people aren't doing as they *should* is directing things in the wrong direction.

The equestrian genre that I like only has two shows a year max in the country. There are plenty more people who ride and train this way but just don't want to compete. So the association has tried to take steps to change the perception of competition and make things more welcoming, accessible and low key to be encouraging. I am NOT saying thats what BE should do but its clear that they do need to make some sort of changes.

I appreciate that BE are trying to do things differently and it's bad timing that it clashes with a cost of living crisis which doesn't make it easy at all for anyone but there have been issues with BE pre covid.

There used to be threads all the time in CR about what a bad business model it was and there were a tonne of suggestions, that some HHOers took to AGMs, that got dismissed by BE. It was the kerrilli, baydale, tabledancer times that I remember the threads (not saying those members were involved just that they were forum regulars in CR at that point) if that narrows down the search.

It's not a new problem(s) but blaming unaff seems to be the new answer.


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## milliepops (17 June 2022)

part of the complexity is trying to be all things to all people i think though? way back when it was just a case that you paid your horse and rider membership and was ultra simple (on paper forms, yawn)  

but now people want multiple different options so the flip side is that choosing your route is more complicated (aka you have to read the bumpf and decide what applies to you)


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## RachelFerd (17 June 2022)

TPO said:



			Didn't BE run for longer as novice + then prenovice + than it has when offering 90 then 80?
		
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I think 90 came in in about 2002 or 2003, which is when I started, 20 years ago. I'm not sure what date it stopped being run by BHS and became BE. But I think BE as a seperate org has been running with 90s for longer than it hasn't, if that makes sense.

Edited to add - the split of BHS and BE (was called BHTA at the time) was in 1996. So it has been running for 26 years, with 90 having been part of the offering for 20 years and 80 was introduced in 2009 - so has been running for 13 years of 26. 

I think unaffiliated boom was a symptom of the problems that had existed for a long time. Didn't get fixed fast enough. Are now being tackled, but the damage is largely done. That's my view anyway!


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## TPO (17 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I think unaffiliated boom was a symptom of the problems that had existed for a long time
		
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Agree. So BE wanted grassroots money to prop up the top of the pyramid but didn't appear to cater to them so now they've started wandering off elsewhere.

Can't say I blame them.

I think the removal of the insurance might be a factor too. If someone is teetering about entering its a other consideration that you might lose your money if its abandoned. Climate change is a big factor too


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## RachelFerd (17 June 2022)

TPO said:



			Agree. So BE wanted grassroots money to prop up the top of the pyramid but didn't appear to cater to them so now they've started wandering off elsewhere.

Can't say I blame them.

I think the removal of the insurance might be a factor too. If someone is teetering about entering its a other consideration that you might lose your money if its abandoned. Climate change is a big factor too
		
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I think that's the wrong way round - people were happily competing in the affiliated events, but the fixtures process was causing organisers huge frustration. Prospective organisers couldn't get dates into the BE fixtures list, which was very much of a closed shop. So they created something appealing, outside of that structure. They have organised some really good events which give people a great customer experience and cut out several of the pain points with the affiliated process - and now its established.

So I don't think people walked out, until they were given something more appealing, as a result of the fixtures process being broken.


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## palo1 (17 June 2022)

It is really sad and as I say, I have nothing to do with eventing these days (though enjoy watching it at times).  Back in the day though, forgive me for dredging up ancient history and the glory days of eventing, on the whole competitive riders didn't want, need or see the point in 'competing' at anything below novice level.  That meant there were enough competitors to make BE 'work' properly for more people imo. 

At Riding Schools, jumping tended to start at 2ft (60cm) and on the whole that wouldn't have been seen as anything other than basic riding.   I remember the lowest height at hunter trials and so on being around 75-80cm with loads of keen ponies and children entering.  And sometimes me lol!!

I know that people want something for everyone and that young horses and young/novice riders need to learn but the 'competition for everyone' model just makes every slice of the cake terribly thin.  It is relatively easy for ECs to run lower level unaff comps and give a feeling of success to more people which is lovely but if that is killing off the pathway and desire for more ambitious riding then that seems daft to me.  At some point Unaff events will find they need an overseeing organisation and if BE has died then they will be stuffed too!! 

I know bog all about it but in wider terms our culture of 'fear' (possibly through lack of really good, solid instruction) and the 'championship for everyone' in equestrianism seem to me to be genuinely doing a disservice to the kind of solid, courageous, knowledgeable and considered riding skills that eventing should be fostering.  I know we don't need eventing or any other equine discipline and I am absolutely not saying that unaff stuff isn't about 'good' riding but by fragmenting a sport/discipline you necessarily lose quality.   Sort of glad I have no money and therefore cannot dream of eventing as it is all very frustrating!!


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## TPO (17 June 2022)

palo1 said:



			It is really sad and as I say, I have nothing to do with eventing these days (though enjoy watching it at times).  Back in the day though, forgive me for dredging up ancient history and the glory days of eventing, on the whole competitive riders didn't want, need or see the point in 'competing' at anything below novice level.  That meant there were enough competitors to make BE 'work' properly for more people imo.

At Riding Schools, jumping tended to start at 2ft (60cm) and on the whole that wouldn't have been seen as anything other than basic riding.   I remember the lowest height at hunter trials and so on being around 75-80cm with loads of keen ponies and children entering.  And sometimes me lol!!

I know that people want something for everyone and that young horses and young/novice riders need to learn but the 'competition for everyone' model just makes every slice of the cake terribly thin.  It is relatively easy for ECs to run lower level unaff comps and give a feeling of success to more people which is lovely but if that is killing off the pathway and desire for more ambitious riding then that seems daft to me.  At some point Unaff events will find they need an overseeing organisation and if BE has died then they will be stuffed too!!

I know bog all about it but in wider terms our culture of 'fear' (possibly through lack of really good, solid instruction) and the 'championship for everyone' in equestrianism seem to me to be genuinely doing a disservice to the kind of solid, courageous, knowledgeable and considered riding skills that eventing should be fostering.  I know we don't need eventing or any other equine discipline and I am absolutely not saying that unaff stuff isn't about 'good' riding but by fragmenting a sport/discipline you necessarily lose quality.   Sort of glad I have no money and therefore cannot dream of eventing as it is all very frustrating!!
		
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Yes this

I deleted my attempt at saying it because it was coming out all wrong.

There is definitely an entitlement these days where people think they should get to do what they want.


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## ycbm (17 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			But without the grassroots levels providing a pyramid for the upper end of the sport, the top end will get much more expensive and inaccessible.
		
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why should someone who competes at 80/90 and never wants to compete any higher subsidise an Advanced rider?




			We'll lose that thread of progression that lets you educate young horses to prepare them for the higher levels.
		
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it never existed before 100 and then 90 and then 80 were added and we still had world class national teams. There's a reason Novice is called Novice. 




			We'll lose all of the incredibly varied terrain that we are SO lucky to get to ride around at our current parkland events.
		
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We've lost many of the ones I used to ride at since the introduction of 80/90, I think that was accelerated by the lower heights,  not caused by unaffiliated.
.


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## milliepops (17 June 2022)

ycbm said:



			why should someone who competes at 80/90 and never wants to compete any higher subsidise an Advanced rider?

.
		
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you could ask a question like this of so many things we all pay for despite not really wanting to (anything relating to children, as a non parent being a slightly lazy but understandable illustration)
If you think of eventing as a whole, as a kind of equestrian society (i would like to think of it like this as the people who do it must surely share some kind of interests, ambitions, passions that make them identifiable as a group rather than just a lot of randoms) then making the higher levels, even novice, remotely accessible to an everyday rider and not just millionaires depends on there being a bit of burden sharing.  hopefully not too much as the bottom of the pyramid *ought* to be broad.

that's before you get to the idea that someone might pigeonhole themselves as just wanting to do 80/90 through a lack of belief or knowledge, because they are not integrated in a structure that makes it possible to progress *if you want to*. it puts a barrier ahead of you. bit the same as sticking at unaff Prelim and Novice dressage shows makes elementary look out of reach but most people can ride a leg yield


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## palo1 (17 June 2022)

ycbm said:



			why should someone who competes at 80/90 and never wants to compete any higher subsidise an Advanced rider?

I guess because sport is a community (generally speaking) and that most competitors don't think quite so directly about what they are or are not supporting.  I think BITD riders were kind of 'proud' that they were involved in the same sport as their heroes.  I was aware that my entries made venues and higher level comps possible but I understood that in terms of there being a way forward if my ambition took me there. I am not sure how many people consistently want to compete at one level and never progress tbh.  

it never existed before 100 and then 90 and then 80 were added and we still had world class national teams. There's a reason Novice is called Novice.

The progression started at a higher level imo; as I said, basic riding skills involved jumping at 2ft with most *potentially* competitive riders happily jumping at 2'6-2'9 (just over 80cm).  Local shows provided training grounds as did pony club etc activities.   3ft is just over 90cm and was generally considered 'competent'.  Many folk who had progressed their riding through hunting would want to be, at the very least, comfortable at that height in order to get across country and many more people did progress elements of their riding through hunting activities.  Even now, for a jumping pack most people I know want to be comfortable and confident to tackle 3ft (just over 90cm) notwithstanding the fact that there is almost always a non-jumping alternative.  Even where I am which is virtually entirely non-jumping there are a couple of places with no option (one is a downhill slope to railway sleepers into a stream and then a tight RH turn - eek!!).  I am really glad, from a skill and courage perspective that I can do that.  

Yet now, 90cm is considered quite aspirational.  I understand why but it has had an impact on making the progression gulf from unaff comps to the more ambitious affiliated stuff much wider.  I don't have huge ambitions to jump over 90cm tbh but I do remember very clearly that this was never really considered advanced riding the way it is now.   I still see small ponies sailing over 90cm out hunting so the horse capabilities haven't changed - I think the unaffiliated model with it's reward for everyone has lowered our collective sense of achievement and aspiration possibly.  That is where the thread of progession may be being lost. 



We've lost many of the ones I used to ride at since the introduction of 80/90, I think that was accelerated by the lower heights,  not caused by unaffiliated.
.
		
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## RachelFerd (17 June 2022)

ycbm said:



			why should someone who competes at 80/90 and never wants to compete any higher subsidise an Advanced rider?



it never existed before 100 and then 90 and then 80 were added and we still had world class national teams. There's a reason Novice is called Novice.



We've lost many of the ones I used to ride at since the introduction of 80/90, I think that was accelerated by the lower heights,  not caused by unaffiliated.
.
		
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1. because if they actually like the sport, they're supporting continued existence of the sport (and success at olympic , world and european championship levels too) - why does a child choose to start a sport without there being the dream of being able to do it at the top levels??

2. novice now is nothing like the novice of old. Even the novices I jumped round in '05/'06 were far, far less technical than they are now. And go back to even earlier, and the courses were just a series of nice straightforward big things. The higher end of the sport is wildly more technical that it used to be in the 'good old days' (a lot of rose-coloured glasses/nostalgia in that, I'm not convinced they were that good) so you need more prep. Even Andrew Nicholson - the original king of 'start them at novice' decided that his horses did indeed need 100 runs. So novice is definitely no longer for novices.

3. we've been hemorrhaging events since the sport began - there are very few that last a long time as most are run as a labour of love not as sensible business decisions. We need influx of new events coming in - and problem with the fixtures process was that willing new events weren't able to get into the calendar.


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## Old school (17 June 2022)

It is a great thread that any officer in an affiliated organisation should read and study it. The thread clearly paints a picture of the issues from all perspectives.
No one can be steered away from where, firstly and most importantly, they can enjoy themselves and their horse. Secondly, those who want to maintain their sport need to get involved and knock heads together. Otherwise in a similar fashion to hunting, it will become fractured and lose support very rapidly. Obviously not for the same reasons, but simply because people are not pulling together.
Irish entries in eventing are also dropping back from the Covid days of high entries when it was the only gig in town (no PC, IPS, RC).


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## ester (17 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			1. because if they actually like the sport, they're supporting continued existence of the sport (and success at olympic , world and european championship levels too) - why does a child choose to start a sport without there being the dream of being able to do it at the top levels??
.
		
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really?! There’s loads of reasons a child chooses a sport without any dreams of doing it at any sort of level, mostly because they enjoy it.


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## RachelFerd (17 June 2022)

ester said:



			really?! There’s loads of reasons a child chooses a sport without any dreams of doing it at any sort of level, mostly because they enjoy it.
		
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Do you think so many kids would want to play football if the Premier League didn't exist?


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## ester (17 June 2022)

Probably yeah, if I followed what you’ve suggested I’d have never done any physical activity at all,  yet I did lots 🤷‍♀️, as did all my friends


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## RachelFerd (17 June 2022)

ester said:



			Probably yeah, if I followed what you’ve suggested I’d have never done any physical activity at all,  yet I did lots 🤷‍♀️, as did all my friends
		
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tangent here - but it doesn't even need to be competitive - but you have to see what's possible to feel inspired, right? I took up aerial silks because I saw the cool stuff that cirque soleil did - even though I knew that I was never going to join the cirque du soleil. But there were kids who started at the circus school who do go on to be professional performers - and maybe they'll even make it into the cirque du soleil! 

I wouldn't have started swinging around on bits of fabric hung from the ceiling with any kind of focus, without being inspired by what the best people can do with them.


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## Snowfilly (17 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			Do you think so many kids would want to play football if the Premier League didn't exist?
		
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I worked for 5 years in sports development for the local council, and much of my role was developing sporting opportunities for 7-11 year olds, as well as working in schools. I did a lot of market research with them about what sports they played and what they wanted.

Top level sport was generally mentioned only by the ones who were from sporty families and or talented and thinking of it. Time and time again, your average kids listed 1) stuff I can with my friends 2) things I don’t have to travel far for (there’s a current of resentment in a lot of families about travelling to sport and the kids know it) 3) things that are fun.

They don’t, as a whole, watch a lot of sport unless they’re already in that sport and keen.

Most of my regular basketballers / netballers/ swimmers couldn’t mention more than 1 or 2 people who played and weren’t interested in the higher levels at all. They just want to have fun.


And that, in a lot of sports, is acknowledged all the way through. Most participants aren’t interested in top level.


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## Sheep (17 June 2022)

It’s interesting to see how things are unfolding atm. I’m in no position to event this year anyway - and I’m not ever going to set the eventing world on fire. 
Over here, we have much fewer in the way of unaff ODEs - we often have 2 phase events, but there is maybe less conflict between aff/unaff. 
In our region of EI, the calendar this season has been significantly slimmed  down due to rising cost and lower entries, and EI80 classes are being brought to all but 1 event - until now, the inclusion of these has been the exception rather than the rule.


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## ester (17 June 2022)

I don’t think I work/tick on being inspired 🤷‍♀️, I just try stuff and if I enjoy it keep doing it. I rather presumed that was the same for most.


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## Old school (17 June 2022)

Sheep said:



			It’s interesting to see how things are unfolding atm. I’m in no position to event this year anyway - and I’m not ever going to set the eventing world on fire. 
Over here, we have much fewer in the way of unaff ODEs - we often have 2 phase events, but there is maybe less conflict between aff/unaff. 
In our region of EI, the calendar this season has been significantly slimmed  down due to rising cost and lower entries, and EI80 classes are being brought to all but 1 event - until now, the inclusion of these has been the exception rather than the rule.
		
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On this side of the country there were/are plenty of unaffiliated events, both on current EI venues and past ones. Since early April you could have evented prob every second weekend without more than an hours drive.


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## Sheep (17 June 2022)

Old school said:



			On this side of the country there were/are plenty of unaffiliated events, both on current EI venues and past ones. Since early April you could have evented prob every second weekend without more than an hours drive.
		
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There’s stacks of jumping/xc events, 2 phases and derbys etc but the full ODE seems to be a rarity now. 
Dressage Ireland have also recently introduced some fairly tricky rules around how dressage judges are police checked which is impacting on aff dressage up here too, not sure if it’s a DI ruling or an HSI one but I presume it has potential to impact on eventing too.


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## RachelFerd (17 June 2022)

ester said:



			I don’t think I work/tick on being inspired 🤷‍♀️, I just try stuff and if I enjoy it keep doing it. I rather presumed that was the same for most.
		
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Haha, yes - I clearly only work on being inspired and presumed it was the same for others too!


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## teapot (17 June 2022)

I’m going to be bold here and maybe mention the elephant in the room. I’ve never evented but I’ve walked enough courses at 90 to Int (plus the big ones) with friends, old bosses etc, and can recognise a tough line, good/bad ground, and unfit or poor riding when I see it. So not completely without an eye on the sport from my comfy chair…

This push for good ground, I want to show jump on a surface, I’m withdrawing if it’s a mm too firm, omg there’s a hill, can’t possibly gallop up and down that etc - the sanitisation of the sport if you will, is doing far more damage. Ie BE’s own members are pushing it in a direction away from what @RachelFerd (and others) need and want

Is it a lack of education? Oh well I want to sj on a surface, when actually jumping off decent grass cover/parkland gives you a better feel, convenience, lack of fitness, not willing cough not able cough to ride what’s in front of you (remember the days pre course walk apps and photos?), limited experience of rainy days etc (I won’t go on…), portable courses (see all the comments from the pros over the last year)…

So is the search for the perfect event killing off the sport?

I think it might be.


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## ycbm (17 June 2022)

milliepops said:



			If you think of eventing as a whole, as a kind of equestrian society
		
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But I don't and I never did.  I thought of it as a way to jump a big,  fast,  exciting cross country course.

I suspect I was in the majority at the time,  and quite possibly I would still be now.

The argument you are putting forward is like saying I should pay more for my ticket at my local regional theatre so that someone else can go and watch opera in London at a reduced price.


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## ester (17 June 2022)

Just seen a post from Dorset show ground struggling to get entries for their grass arena BS show- one did point out it’s not worth getting studs when they are the only grass sJ option locally.


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## ycbm (17 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			why does a child choose to start a sport without there being the dream of being able to do it at the top levels??
		
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Because someone invites or directs (school PE class) them to try a sport and they  enjoy it enough to want to carry on doing it. I suspect that's the vast majority, the ones dreaming of doing it at top level being a tiny minority of children and a bit bigger, but still a minority,  of parents.  
.


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## ycbm (17 June 2022)

teapot said:



			I’m going to be bold here and maybe mention the elephant in the room. I’ve never evented but I’ve walked enough courses at 90 to Int (plus the big ones) with friends, old bosses etc, and can recognise a tough line, good/bad ground, and unfit or poor riding when I see it. So not completely without an eye on the sport from my comfy chair…

This push for good ground, I want to show jump on a surface, I’m withdrawing if it’s a mm too firm, omg there’s a hill, can’t possibly gallop up and down that etc - the sanitisation of the sport if you will, is doing far more damage. Ie BE’s own members are pushing it in a direction away from what @RachelFerd (and others) need and want

Is it a lack of education? Oh well I want to sj on a surface, when actually jumping off decent grass cover/parkland gives you a better feel, convenience, lack of fitness, not willing cough not able cough to ride what’s in front of you (remember the days pre course walk apps and photos?), limited experience of rainy days etc (I won’t go on…), portable courses (see all the comments from the pros over the last year)…

So is the search for the perfect event killing off the sport?

I think it might be. 

Click to expand...

Bloody brilliant post Teapot, you're onto something there.


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## Elf On A Shelf (17 June 2022)

teapot said:



			I’m going to be bold here and maybe mention the elephant in the room. I’ve never evented but I’ve walked enough courses at 90 to Int (plus the big ones) with friends, old bosses etc, and can recognise a tough line, good/bad ground, and unfit or poor riding when I see it. So not completely without an eye on the sport from my comfy chair…

This push for good ground, I want to show jump on a surface, I’m withdrawing if it’s a mm too firm, omg there’s a hill, can’t possibly gallop up and down that etc - the sanitisation of the sport if you will, is doing far more damage. Ie BE’s own members are pushing it in a direction away from what @RachelFerd (and others) need and want

Is it a lack of education? Oh well I want to sj on a surface, when actually jumping off decent grass cover/parkland gives you a better feel, convenience, lack of fitness, not willing cough not able cough to ride what’s in front of you (remember the days pre course walk apps and photos?), limited experience of rainy days etc (I won’t go on…), portable courses (see all the comments from the pros over the last year)…

So is the search for the perfect event killing off the sport?

I think it might be. 

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It's not just eventing though. Everyone wants to be on a surface! Showing is probably the only exception in summer months as most showing shows run on grass. Though you do go somewhere with a surface and the working hunter brigade  demand to jump on the surface 🙄 

No one wants to do dressage on grass. No one wants to show jump on grass. 

I have always preferred grass as that is all I have at home. My lot meet surfaces for the first time at shows - which can lead to some interesting discussions with the youngsters stepping onto it for the first time 😂😂😂 and that's after you have managed to get round/over/sky rocket the drains 😂😂😂


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## Squeak (17 June 2022)

teapot said:



			I’m going to be bold here and maybe mention the elephant in the room. I’ve never evented but I’ve walked enough courses at 90 to Int (plus the big ones) with friends, old bosses etc, and can recognise a tough line, good/bad ground, and unfit or poor riding when I see it. So not completely without an eye on the sport from my comfy chair…

This push for good ground, I want to show jump on a surface, I’m withdrawing if it’s a mm too firm, omg there’s a hill, can’t possibly gallop up and down that etc - the sanitisation of the sport if you will, is doing far more damage. Ie BE’s own members are pushing it in a direction away from what @RachelFerd (and others) need and want

Is it a lack of education? Oh well I want to sj on a surface, when actually jumping off decent grass cover/parkland gives you a better feel, convenience, lack of fitness, not willing cough not able cough to ride what’s in front of you (remember the days pre course walk apps and photos?), limited experience of rainy days etc (I won’t go on…), portable courses (see all the comments from the pros over the last year)…

So is the search for the perfect event killing off the sport?

I think it might be. 

Click to expand...

Or has the sport just changed so much in becoming so technical that you can't afford to just ride what's in front of you anymore?  It's already been discussed that the novice tracks today are a different ask to what it used to be so I'm not sure we're really comparing apples with apples when looking at how people rode and what they expected previously to what people do today.

It takes a lot more knowledge and skill to ride a technical course than to gallop around a big bold flowing track.  Today the saying if in doubt kick on almost doesn't work as you'd have overshot the line or end up on a wrong distance through a combination.

Eta I think there's also an element of more veterinary knowledge and the damage of bad ground etc.  Not always a good thing - look at the reduction of the belief in being serviceably sound rather than aiming for perfection.


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## Ambers Echo (17 June 2022)

Eland is undulating, up to height, with technical challenges and often with hard ground. It’s always full. Not really sure what they are doing right but not everyone wants a flat field and 20 straight forward fences. SJ is on a surface though. 

The issue of ground is problematic though. Having retired Amber, the thought of another breaking is awful. I take Lottie’s fitness/conditioning programme feet seriously but I still wouldn’t want to risk her on very hard ground.


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## Squeak (17 June 2022)

Out of interest does anyone know why people chose to go to Kelsall instead of Cholomondley?  

It seems a very interesting case study as you would have thought people would have preferred to go to the one of parkland events rather than an equestrian centre one.


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## RachelFerd (17 June 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Eland is undulating, up to height, with technical challenges and often with hard ground. It’s always full. Not really sure what they are doing right but not everyone wants a flat field and 20 straight forward fences. SJ is on a surface though.

The issue of ground is problematic though. Having retired Amber, the thought of another breaking is awful. I take Lottie’s fitness/conditioning programme feet seriously but I still wouldn’t want to risk her on very hard ground.
		
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The problem with Eland for me, is that the questions don't change from year to year. Its pretty much exactly the same every time. I don't think the novice course is very educational. The 90 and 100 tracks are nice - the 90 can be testing, the 100 is extremely straightforward. The ground is often firm (it is on clay - miracles aren't possible). I prefer SJ on grass so generally don't end up going.


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## RachelFerd (17 June 2022)

Squeak said:



			Out of interest does anyone know why people chose to go to Kelsall instead of Cholomondley? 

It seems a very interesting case study as you would have thought people would have preferred to go to the one of parkland events rather than an equestrian centre one.
		
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Squeak said:



			Out of interest does anyone know why people chose to go to Kelsall instead of Cholomondley? 

It seems a very interesting case study as you would have thought people would have preferred to go to the one of parkland events rather than an equestrian centre one.
		
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Kelsall has never run an unaff ODE before so a bit of excitement from those that refuse to run BE but want to have a go at riding around it. They opened entries very early and stated it would be first come first served and they're also running a 70. Cholmondeley never even got to the point of opening their entries - but Kelsall already has 1 day+ of entries (so that's 250+ I guess). I suspect Kelsall has mainly attracted an audience of people who haven't got much eventing experience and are trying it out. Possibly have done the Kelsall arena eventing stuff and are comfortable with the venue and know what sort of jumps there will be. Kelsall has hilly terrain so its not a flat field of portables though. I'd be interested in what the entry split is... I am guessing it will heavily weight towards 70 and 80 rather than 90 and 100 entries.


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## Ambers Echo (17 June 2022)

I've only done the 90 at Eland - interesting that you tnink it's a straightforward 100.....

In answer to Squeak's question - my friends are not doing Kelsall the day it clashes. I like Kelsall but I was planning to do Cholmondely if Stafford went well as it's a tougher question so I wanted to see how Stafford went first.


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## Squeak (17 June 2022)

That sounds potentially like completely different audiences for the two events from what you've both said?  If it's people wanting to give eventing a try then they probably wouldn't have gone to Cholmondeley anyway?


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## Ambers Echo (17 June 2022)

Squeak said:



			That sounds potentially like completely different audiences for the two events from what you've both said?  If it's people wanting to give eventing a try then they probably wouldn't have gone to Cholmondeley anyway?
		
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Especially as Cholmondeley don’t even run an 80. Maybe we are being unfair blaming Kelsall?


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## RachelFerd (17 June 2022)

Squeak said:



			That sounds potentially like completely different audiences for the two events from what you've both said?  If it's people wanting to give eventing a try then they probably wouldn't have gone to Cholmondeley anyway?
		
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The 90/100 entries will be the same audience. And CHolmondeley has also cancelled their unaff the week afterwards - which would be an identical audience. 



Ambers Echo said:



			I've only done the 90 at Eland - interesting that you tnink it's a straightforward 100.....
		
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Yes - it's very, very straightforward. Just checked eventing scores stats and the 100 has a 88.2% clear rate, which is way above average (average usually sits around 80%).


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## Ambers Echo (17 June 2022)

Well that’s my first 100 sorted….


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## Squeak (17 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			The 90/100 entries will be the same audience. And CHolmondeley has also cancelled their unaff the week afterwards - which would be an identical audience.
		
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At the risk of being annoying (sorry!  not actually meaning to be, I'm genuinely intrigued) I guess this comes back to the previous question though of why people are choosing to go to Kelsall.  What you and AE said makes sense for the 80's etc or the people who are there for the novelty but for the 90/ 100 entries who had the choice of either or, it would be really interesting to know why they chose Kelsall.


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## Tiddlypom (17 June 2022)

Squeak said:



			Out of interest does anyone know why people chose to go to Kelsall instead of Cholomondley?

It seems a very interesting case study as you would have thought people would have preferred to go to the one of parkland events rather than an equestrian centre one.
		
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Kelsall unaff entry fee £70. Dressage and SJ are both on a surface, with the SJ being indoors. Accredited course builders for SJ and CC.

Classes 70cm, 80cm, 90cm, 100cm.

*Prize Money *1st = £40 | 2nd = £30 | 3rd = £20 | 4th = £15 | 5th = £10 | 6th – 10th = £5 | Prize money is paid for 1 in 5 starters.

Kelsall *is* a very good venue. But Cholmondeley BE and unaff is also a superb all grass parkland venue. They used to hold the Pony Club championships there.


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## ycbm (17 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			Kelsall has never run an unaff ODE before so a bit of excitement from those that refuse to run BE but want to have a go at riding around it.
		
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I'm pretty sure that Kelsall has always opened the course for anyone to ride round it non competitively on the days following BE events.  Maybe the success of that showed them what demand there might be for an UA competition.  
.


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## spacefaer (17 June 2022)

As a side note (and something I've posted before usually in a nostalgic discussion about eventing) a lot of the "lovely parkland events" were lost when the National Trust pulled out.


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## RachelFerd (17 June 2022)

ycbm said:



			I'm pretty sure that Kelsall has always opened the course for anyone to ride round it non competitively on the days following BE events.  Maybe the success of that showed them what demand there might be for an UA competition. 
.
		
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It's never that noticeably busy when they open up the course. They also close off any fences with frangibles and take out everything that doesn't have a groundline once flowers and decoration have been taken away. So still a 'unique' experience to ride around it competitively. 

I've always really liked it as a venue. Until this spring event, where the lack of ground prep really surprised me given that it was running FEI classes. And their calendar for events in the arenas seems to be shifting away from higher level stuff into offering lots of 'mini' SJ etc. which I suppose just reflects the market. But as previous @palo1 post notes - this seems to be a general weird pattern of ever smaller events becoming popular. So increasingly it isn't providing what I want - which I suppose just reflects I don't want what everyone else wants.


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## humblepie (17 June 2022)

I haven't ever really evented other than show jumping my way round a few pony club teams pretending to event, but I have groomed for a friend and for an Olympic rider, and the lovely locations were part of it - I think it would be a shame if it ends with the majority of competitions at centres with cross country courses.   I was only thinking earlier that Hickstead altered one of its lovely grass arenas that had permanent working hunter fences into an all weather and that lost some of the allure - it could be anywhere now. Its a fabulous arena but not Hickstead if you know what I mean.  One lovely old fashioned grass ring remains again with permanent working hunter fences (as well as of course  the international arena being grass) and I hope they are able to keep that.


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## ycbm (17 June 2022)

humblepie said:



			I think it would be a shame if it ends with the majority of competitions at centres with cross country courses
		
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That's already the situation,  I think. 
.


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## humblepie (17 June 2022)

ycbm said:



			That's already the situation,  I think.
.
		
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I am not up to date but thinking about where friends who event go, yes that is the case.  It a shame as some of the old country estate ones would sell themselves as  nice day out for people to go and visit even if not that horse orientated.


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## ycbm (17 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			why does a child choose to start a sport without there being the dream of being able to do it at the top levels??
		
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In addition to my previous answer to this question,  I think you are mistaking wanting to try a sport because you've seen top people doing it on telly with thinking that you are ever going to want,  or be able,  to do it at that level yourself.  I was,  for example,  inspired to show jump by Paddy McMahon/Pennwood Forge Mill, Harvey Smith/Mattie Brown et al on BBC 1 every night for a week at HOYS. But never once did I ever aspire to show jump at BSJA, never mind to ride  Grade A GP horse. 
.


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## palo1 (17 June 2022)

Squeak said:



			Or has the sport just changed so much in becoming so technical that you can't afford to just ride what's in front of you anymore?  It's already been discussed that the novice tracks today are a different ask to what it used to be so I'm not sure we're really comparing apples with apples when looking at how people rode and what they expected previously to what people do today.

It takes a lot more knowledge and skill to ride a technical course than to gallop around a big bold flowing track.  Today the saying if in doubt kick on almost doesn't work as you'd have overshot the line or end up on a wrong distance through a combination.

Eta I think there's also an element of more veterinary knowledge and the damage of bad ground etc.  Not always a good thing - look at the reduction of the belief in being serviceably sound rather than aiming for perfection.
		
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This kind of reflects what I wonder (from an ignorant standpoint).  The 'old fashioned' courses needed courage, confidence and a degree of faith that partnerships would come home safely because they were up to the questions asked.  A lot more eventing skill was developed through hunting so grass, poor conditions, 'winging it' and a kick on attitude were not inappropriate in relation to what was needed on the xc field.  The technicality of courses now seems (from an outsider's point of view) to need different skills and I believe that as we have become far more H&S oriented (which is a good thing) the old fashioned skills and approaches may be less useful.  Horses and riders did used to get injured eventing and ideally you would try to avoid too much of that!!

At the same time that H&S 'stuff' has definitely impacted on our wider horse culture with far more fearful riders continuing to want to do stuff.  So there will be someone who offers what they want!   I suspect that in the bad old days, if you were frightened you generally didn't compete or gave up riding; maybe through shame or possibly because it was just impossible to continue.  Now, fear is not only openly acknowledged -which is a good thing but it has, in my view wrongly, been legitimised.  There are all manner of clinics 'xc for the terrified etc'. I know it will be unpopular to say this but fear (and I am not talking nerves a la Piggy French) has no real place in horsemanship.  Yet we seem to be in a place where we are encouraging people to aspire to what is a serious and courageous endeavour through the provision of really accessible comps and events. That is nice for people but it is possibly a bit misleading and likely to lead to disappointment as it proves impossible to move up the levels with that mindset and skillset.  Sorry, I am not articulating this very well or clearly but I see in friends and others levels of anxiety about things we used to take for granted, which cannot contribute toward some of the things those same people aspire to. 

I do think too that injury to horses through increasingly difficult/technical work makes us all more cautious and that is right and proper for our horse's sake but it can feel a bit tail wagging the dog...Would it be really wrong/pointless to return to less technical stuff I wonder?  Whatever the case, eventing now bears only a small resemblance to what it did. That doesn't matter as long as competitors and organisers are all on the same bus, which they are not currently!


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## palo1 (17 June 2022)

Not sure why I am so interested in this thread but the experience I had a couple of weeks ago sort of illuminates what I am trying to say above (and then I will go away lol). I signed up for a xc clinic with a BE coach. It was my mare's first experience of any xc fences or environment other than a few little hunt jumps and natural terrain that is very familiar to her. It was all about having a bit of fun tbh.  We were in the 70cm class so I expected it to be easy and relaxed. There were 5 of us in that session on a hilly, twisty little course. All on grass but with a bit of surface for t/o and landing.  Lots of what seemed nice, inviting and straightforward jumps. Yay!! I have no BE ambitions at all but 3 of the other participants said they wanted to do a bit.  2 horses deffo overweight.   Coach started us off with a simple corner on a slight (very slight) downhill.  Very clear instructions given and really the jump was below 70cm. Instantly 2 people said they didn't want to jump downhill.  Another one said they didn't want to have to jump away from the other horses!  One other person utterly failed to get their horse out of trot.  We did all have fun in the end but there was much nervous muttering about things which should be 'ok for anyone wanting to tackle fixed obstacles in any kind of competitive situation.    Coach offered the chance to try some of the 80's where appropriate - none of which were anything other than straightforward.  No-one seemed to want to test themselves in spite of the coach giving us a great session with helpful and effective advice that moved everyone on. I was delighted with the clinic and really want to arrange another one with a bit more challenge.  

It was kind of surprising and disappointing.  I could see that everyone there had aspirations (including me) but there was also some not such good stuff in evidence and I really wondered how on earth some of the riders/partnerships were going to bridge the gulf between where they seemed to be at and where they had said they wanted to get to.   I know that possibly they will head for an unaff comp at a reasonably local venue on flat ground at 60cm.  But how will that help them to get to BE?  It is a certain lack of preparedness and of real confidence and skill  that makes people want to take the easiest possible and 'safest' option I suppose.  Each to their own plan as long as it doesn't kill the opportunities that we want I guess.


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## RachelFerd (17 June 2022)

palo1 said:



			Not sure why I am so interested in this thread but the experience I had a couple of weeks ago sort of illuminates what I am trying to say above (and then I will go away lol). I signed up for a xc clinic with a BE coach. It was my mare's first experience of any xc fences or environment other than a few little hunt jumps and natural terrain that is very familiar to her. It was all about having a bit of fun tbh.  We were in the 70cm class so I expected it to be easy and relaxed. There were 5 of us in that session on a hilly, twisty little course. All on grass but with a bit of surface for t/o and landing.  Lots of what seemed nice, inviting and straightforward jumps. Yay!! I have no BE ambitions at all but 3 of the other participants said they wanted to do a bit.  2 horses deffo overweight.   Coach started us off with a simple corner on a slight (very slight) downhill.  Very clear instructions given and really the jump was below 70cm. Instantly 2 people said they didn't want to jump downhill.  Another one said they didn't want to have to jump away from the other horses!  One other person utterly failed to get their horse out of trot.  We did all have fun in the end but there was much nervous muttering about things which should be 'ok for anyone wanting to tackle fixed obstacles in any kind of competitive situation.    Coach offered the chance to try some of the 80's where appropriate - none of which were anything other than straightforward.  No-one seemed to want to test themselves in spite of the coach giving us a great session with helpful and effective advice that moved everyone on. I was delighted with the clinic and really want to arrange another one with a bit more challenge. 

It was kind of surprising and disappointing.  I could see that everyone there had aspirations (including me) but there was also some not such good stuff in evidence and I really wondered how on earth some of the riders/partnerships were going to bridge the gulf between where they seemed to be at and where they had said they wanted to get to.   I know that possibly they will head for an unaff comp at a reasonably local venue on flat ground at 60cm.  But how will that help them to get to BE?  It is a certain lack of preparedness and of real confidence and skill  that makes people want to take the easiest possible and 'safest' option I suppose.  Each to their own plan as long as it doesn't kill the opportunities that we want I guess.
		
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To be fair the thread has morphed into many topics over its 17 pages, as is perhaps an interesting 'state of the nation' comment on what we do with our horses now!

Your XC clinic experience sounds very typical for the level. Although does remind me of a fantastic Josephine Pullein Thompson book from the 1970s where the failing pony club kids get a new instructor who helps them to build a XC training course using the natural features, and they all start complaining about having to jump downhill, but the fantastic coach manages to talk them around - and low and behold the kids get so good after a summer of learning that they win the PC challenge competition. I digress, but I think it highlights that these issues aren't totally new!!

What does seem to be happening though, as more mini stuff gets put on the calendar, is that people's focus quickly shifts to competing at a low level, rather than training more and starting competing at a slightly higher level. And whilst that's not intrinsically wrong, I find it a bit strange. Any moderately athletic horse or pony will find BE90s to be entirely within their comfort zone, if trained correctly. So why are people so keen to get out and do a 50cm hunter trial at Eland? Why not do another 10 XC training sessions and clinics and then come out at a level which you've trained and prepared for?? It's not wrong, but I don't understand the mindset.

Although, if this threads taught me anything, its that my mindset might be weirder than I thought it was.


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## HashRouge (17 June 2022)

palo1 said:



			Not sure why I am so interested in this thread but the experience I had a couple of weeks ago sort of illuminates what I am trying to say above (and then I will go away lol). I signed up for a xc clinic with a BE coach. It was my mare's first experience of any xc fences or environment other than a few little hunt jumps and natural terrain that is very familiar to her. It was all about having a bit of fun tbh.  We were in the 70cm class so I expected it to be easy and relaxed. There were 5 of us in that session on a hilly, twisty little course. All on grass but with a bit of surface for t/o and landing.  Lots of what seemed nice, inviting and straightforward jumps. Yay!! I have no BE ambitions at all but 3 of the other participants said they wanted to do a bit.  2 horses deffo overweight.   Coach started us off with a simple corner on a slight (very slight) downhill.  Very clear instructions given and really the jump was below 70cm. Instantly 2 people said they didn't want to jump downhill.  Another one said they didn't want to have to jump away from the other horses!  One other person utterly failed to get their horse out of trot.  We did all have fun in the end but there was much nervous muttering about things which should be 'ok for anyone wanting to tackle fixed obstacles in any kind of competitive situation.    Coach offered the chance to try some of the 80's where appropriate - none of which were anything other than straightforward.  No-one seemed to want to test themselves in spite of the coach giving us a great session with helpful and effective advice that moved everyone on. I was delighted with the clinic and really want to arrange another one with a bit more challenge. 

It was kind of surprising and disappointing.  I could see that everyone there had aspirations (including me) but there was also some not such good stuff in evidence and I really wondered how on earth some of the riders/partnerships were going to bridge the gulf between where they seemed to be at and where they had said they wanted to get to.   I know that possibly they will head for an unaff comp at a reasonably local venue on flat ground at 60cm.  But how will that help them to get to BE?  It is a certain lack of preparedness and of real confidence and skill  that makes people want to take the easiest possible and 'safest' option I suppose.  Each to their own plan as long as it doesn't kill the opportunities that we want I guess.
		
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I find this a bit of an odd post. Those other riders were clearly on their own training journey and will get to BE (or not!) in their own time. At least they were at a clinic, receiving training and trying to learn. Maybe getting to BE is a completely unrealistic dream for any of them, but I don't really see why that is an issue. We certainly can't blame then for the death of BE...


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## HashRouge (17 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			What does seem to be happening though, as more mini stuff gets put on the calendar, is that people's focus quickly shifts to competing at a low level, rather than training more and starting competing at a slightly higher level. And whilst that's not intrinsically wrong, I find it a bit strange. Any moderately athletic horse or pony will find BE90s to be entirely within their comfort zone, if trained correctly. So why are people so keen to get out and do a 50cm hunter trial at Eland? Why not do another 10 XC training sessions and clinics and then come out at a level which you've trained and prepared for?? It's not wrong, but I don't understand the mindset.

Although, if this threads taught me anything, its that my mindset might be weirder than I thought it was.
		
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This is like saying you don't understand why anyone plays in a kickabout football league rather than training harder and making their debut in the National League. They go out and do it because they find it fun, which is exactly why (I imagine) plenty of people want to go and do the 50cm hunter trial.

Either way, having a 50cm hunter trial is not going to stop people moving up the levels. Either, the people who compete in the 50cm hunter trial will be people who would never go out and do a BE90 anyway and simply wouldn't compete if there weren't easy options available, or they will be people having a go at their first event(s), who will then get the bug, keep improving, and move up the levels. Both seem like perfectly understandable mindsets to me.


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## palo1 (17 June 2022)

HashRouge said:



			I find this a bit of an odd post. Those other riders were clearly on their own training journey and will get to BE (or not!) in their own time. At least they were at a clinic, receiving training and trying to learn. Maybe getting to BE is a completely unrealistic dream for any of them, but I don't really see why that is an issue. We certainly can't blame then for the death of BE...
		
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I didn't mean it to sound in any way disparaging or to criticise the way that people choose to train at all.  I too am training at that level in my own way and I definitely agree that it is great to get training in and we were all investing in that.  It was a fun and happy morning.  I was just surprised by some things and I think it gave me pause to think about training/competition etc.  I can see that because it is possible to go and do a 60cm comp on a prepared, flat course that would be appealing; at least you get to go to that comp and possibly come home with a rosette rather than perhaps have to spend more money training so that you can get to a BE comp that is more expensive and potentially more challenging.  I dunno, I am out of the loop! It was just very different to what I expected - not having attended any form of xc training for several years lol and it didn't/doesn't reflect my own mindset which would have me frustratedly bashing away at training until I felt 'ready' for moving 'up'.  I think it may be that I am a bit older (early 50s) and find the idea of a competition at the level we were training at a bit odd!!  As I say, not a competitor, nor in the loop.


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## palo1 (17 June 2022)

HashRouge said:



			This is like saying you don't understand why anyone plays in a kickabout football league rather than training harder and making their debut in the National League. They go out and do it because they find it fun, which is exactly why (I imagine) plenty of people want to go and do the 50cm hunter trial.

Either way, having a 50cm hunter trial is not going to stop people moving up the levels. Either, the people who compete in the 50cm hunter trial will be people who would never go out and do a BE90 anyway and simply wouldn't compete if there weren't easy options available, or they will be people having a go at their first event(s), who will then get the bug, keep improving, and move up the levels. Both seem like perfectly understandable mindsets to me.
		
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There should be room for everyone of course and no-one should feel wrong for following their own journey but currently BE vs Unaff makes people feel like there is an issue with both ends of the spectrum - I think?


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## palo1 (17 June 2022)

HashRouge said:



			This is like saying you don't understand why anyone plays in a kickabout football league rather than training harder and making their debut in the National League. They go out and do it because they find it fun, which is exactly why (I imagine) plenty of people want to go and do the 50cm hunter trial.

Have you witnessed the level of competition and ambition at kickabout football leagues lol???
		
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## teapot (17 June 2022)

HashRouge said:



			I find this a bit of an odd post. Those other riders were clearly on their own training journey and will get to BE (or not!) in their own time. At least they were at a clinic, receiving training and trying to learn. Maybe getting to BE is a completely unrealistic dream for any of them, but I don't really see why that is an issue. We certainly can't blame then for the death of BE...
		
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It’s a reflection of perhaps wider attitudes which are infiltrating the sport and backs up my point that it’s all getting a bit sanitised.

As I say the continued quest to find the perfect event or schooling clinic is going to turn BE into glorified arena eventing if people aren’t careful


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## teapot (17 June 2022)

Squeak said:



			Or has the sport just changed so much in becoming so technical that you can't afford to just ride what's in front of you anymore?  It's already been discussed that the novice tracks today are a different ask to what it used to be so I'm not sure we're really comparing apples with apples when looking at how people rode and what they expected previously to what people do today.

It takes a lot more knowledge and skill to ride a technical course than to gallop around a big bold flowing track.  Today the saying if in doubt kick on almost doesn't work as you'd have overshot the line or end up on a wrong distance through a combination.

Eta I think there's also an element of more veterinary knowledge and the damage of bad ground etc.  Not always a good thing - look at the reduction of the belief in being serviceably sound rather than aiming for perfection.
		
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Yet all the pros are saying the lower levels aren’t good enough prep for the higher ones.

Also you can set up skinny after skinny after skinny on increasingly difficult lines in an arena, you can’t recreate some of the bigger bolder fences at home. So are people actually riding with more knowledge, experience and feel, OR do they look as though they are yet suddenly become actually unstuck if a distance isn’t exactly bang on, or the ground moves underneath them, or the dip in ground line makes the horse question…

Hard to know when so many are choosing to compete over manicured courses 😉

Posted just as Lucinda Green’s rider responsibilities checklist arrived in my inbox. Timely.


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## Ambers Echo (17 June 2022)

Isn;t that a Covid thing though? A fully up to height and technicality season after 2 years with inadequate opportunities.They have made A Levels easier because kids literally werent educated. They should perhaps have done the same for the intl events.

Re clinics scaring people with challenges that are well within  entry level BE, you could he descrobing me! Cluelessness has really summed up my entire horsey career thus far! So when I entered Eland 70cm because a friend persuaded me 'it would be fun' I expected flat terrain and small fences. Like the 70cm portable fences I was jumping on the field at the yard.

When I walked the course I nearly died. And was convicned I was going to when I tried to jump it. Cantering downhill was an alient concept, never mind JUMPING downhill. I trotted all the down hill sections. But as someone said above - i was hooked after that. And decided I better find out what it involved and learn to ride the way I needed to be able to. 

If it had not been for 70cm unaff I am not sure I would ever have dared to affliiate though. Maybe an 80 eventually but I can't imagine ever starting at 90.


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## spacefaer (17 June 2022)

So we think that people are using lower level/smaller competitions as training, rather than going for training clinics etc? It's sometimes easier to enter a competition (BE excluded AE 🤣 ) than it is to find appropriate level training. And in going for training, you set yourself up for personal criticism, whereas no one comments on your efforts/successes/ failures at a competition?


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## spacefaer (17 June 2022)

On another side note I'm an old school eventer - peaked at (old) 2* in the 90s. I've jumped Adv and done roads and tracks in3DEs - I don't remember ever withdrawing because of the ground... We'd put bigger/smaller studs in and ride appropriately - slower if it was hard or bottomless for instance, but we did just kick on. 
I never did a tendon or had a horse injured eventing either. (Me on the other hand ..... Still limping 🤣🤣)


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## RachelFerd (17 June 2022)

spacefaer said:



			So we think that people are using lower level/smaller competitions as training, rather than going for training clinics etc? It's sometimes easier to enter a competition (BE excluded AE 🤣 ) than it is to find appropriate level training. And in going for training, you set yourself up for personal criticism, whereas no one comments on your efforts/successes/ failures at a competition?
		
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Definitely. People will maybe do a camp at Somerford, go XC twice while they're there, and then enter the 50cm hunter trial at Eland. That's all fine and dandy, but its not educational really. 

Whereas I think I XC schooled the 4yo about 8 times at 4 - mainly bitesize sessions working on different key skills - and didn't compete at all at 4. XC schooled/trained 4 times as a 5yo before going to his first event in April. So 12 XC training sessions (not lots and lots of jumping - bitesized and focussed) and then starting competing when I was happy that all of the XC stepping stone skills were in place. And TBH the process of doing all that training is kind of more fun than the competing, so I'm not sure what the hurry to compete is about?!


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## Ambers Echo (17 June 2022)

I wanted to do a 70 because such a feat seemed superhuman. That was on a previous horse to Amber. Amber and Lottie  started at 80 bypassing the 60/70 stage because they were no longer challenging so what was the point? But at the time those events felt bl00dy brilliant! And got me inspired. 

I actually agree with both MP who described it as a family and RF who said seeing top riders makes you dream. I love being part of the eventing family and I have big dreams!! I may not get there but the dreams are what keeps me going.


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## lar (17 June 2022)

So do I accept the request to FJ at Kelsall's unaffiliated? #conflicted


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## Lexi_ (17 June 2022)

lar said:



			So do I accept the request to FJ at Kelsall's unaffiliated? #conflicted
		
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I have a diary clash for the Sat. Will wait and see if they end up running the Sun, when I was meant to be FJ-ing at Cholmondeley but am obviously now free. I’m tempted to reply and politely point out how much bad feeling they’ve caused with this calendar clash.

I like the team there and it’s our closest event, so I don’t want to stop volunteering for them or get blacklisted or anything. Tricky though! It feels like they might just see the 250+ entries rolling in and feel entirely justified in their decision. And ultimately I don’t think they’re wrong to put on a UA, they’ve just ballsed up the timing.


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## Roxylola (17 June 2022)

I'm on the verge of boycotting kelsall entirely over this. They've at least contributed to total cancellation at cholmondeley both BE and brigante. And although they said they'd run two days if they had entries they've now said Sunday will be a clear round day. 
In general I'm pro be and unaff but this is poor


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## Tiddlypom (17 June 2022)

Here's a blast from the past - a RC XC clinic circa 37 years ago, taken by a BHSII.

This was typical of what was available unaff in my area at the time. I was almost certainly the wimpiest rider in my group, but was blessed with a totally genuine horse who would always try his best within his relatively limited scope.

I topped out competitively eventing wise at RC novice level - 2'9". Did I mention that I am a wimp 🤣?

Interestingly, though I can't spot the horse at this clinic, the same trainer bought a horse out of our RC and took him right up through the levels to multiple completions of Badminton and Burghley.


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## Tiddlypom (17 June 2022)

Roxylola said:



			I'm on the verge of boycotting kelsall entirely over this. They've at least contributed to total cancellation at cholmondeley both BE and brigante. And although they said they'd run two days if they had entries they've now said Sunday will be a clear round day.
		
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It gets murkier. Riders who want to go on the wait list have to pay a non refundable deposit of £5. If enough people go on the wait list, they've now said they will run on Sun too.

Non refundable deposit just to join a wait list? There are some pretty unhappy people on the Kelsall FB page.


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## Red-1 (17 June 2022)

I have competed to what is new CCI**, yet am now older and wimpy and pricking my ears up at the prospect of a 50cm hunter trial, if the course is nice (as in inviting and educational). To me, now, that would be a step up from where we are. 

I used to teach confidence coaching and found that any step towards your goal is worthwhile and closing the gap between where you are and where you want to be. With my baby horse, we have just done a few XC schooling sessions, and as he isn't the fittest, have mostly done around a dozen fences before calling it a day. 

The other day, we did a sj clear round at a show, at 40cm - our frst SJ show. It WAS educational to us. First time in a sj collecting ring, first time leaving a sj collecting ring and going into the main ring, first time jumping 11 fences straight, first time with the commentator and bell. We achieved. We did firsts and therefore improved our experience and skills. We even trotted a few, as he was feeling green, but came out of the ring a bigger combination. Of course that was worthwhile, for us, even at 40cm.

A 50cm hunter trial would be great. Warm up with others, starting box, strings and tannoy, a full course, cantering away from others,  uphill, downhill, variety of fences one after the other, chance to get into a rhythm, yet small enough to trot to anything that causes a question in the horse. Wind in your hair and a social day out to boot. What's not to like? 

Every small step is a step closer to my goal. Yes, YOU may make bigger steps and get there quicker. But, I am happy that my horse and I are doing our thing, in our time, getting there with miles of smiles on the way. 

At one time I was suspicious of BE90 as it seemed too small. Now, it is something I aspire to. I will use smaller courses as a stepping stone, yes even 40cm or 50cm, and I'm not a novice. Everyone has different aspirations, no one's aspirations are any less important than others'.


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## RachelFerd (17 June 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			It gets murkier. Riders who want to go on the wait list have to pay a non refundable deposit of £5. If enough people go on the wait list, they've now said they will run on Sun too.

Non refundable deposit just to join a wait list? There are some pretty unhappy people on the Kelsall FB page.
		
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Yep. Welcome to the future of unaff eventing, where the competitions set whatever unreasonable rules they want. And we will have to lump it, as no overseeing body to keep it fair.


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## palo1 (17 June 2022)

Red-1 said:



			I have competed to what is new CCI**, yet am now older and wimpy and pricking my ears up at the prospect of a 50cm hunter trial, if the course is nice (as in inviting and educational). To me, now, that would be a step up from where we are.

I used to teach confidence coaching and found that any step towards your goal is worthwhile and closing the gap between where you are and where you want to be. With my baby horse, we have just done a few XC schooling sessions, and as he isn't the fittest, have mostly done around a dozen fences before calling it a day.

The other day, we did a sj clear round at a show, at 40cm - our frst SJ show. It WAS educational to us. First time in a sj collecting ring, first time leaving a sj collecting ring and going into the main ring, first time jumping 11 fences straight, first time with the commentator and bell. We achieved. We did firsts and therefore improved our experience and skills. We even trotted a few, as he was feeling green, but came out of the ring a bigger combination. Of course that was worthwhile, for us, even at 40cm.

A 50cm hunter trial would be great. Warm up with others, starting box, strings and tannoy, a full course, cantering away from others,  uphill, downhill, variety of fences one after the other, chance to get into a rhythm, yet small enough to trot to anything that causes a question in the horse. Wind in your hair and a social day out to boot. What's not to like?

Every small step is a step closer to my goal. Yes, YOU may make bigger steps and get there quicker. But, I am happy that my horse and I are doing our thing, in our time, getting there with miles of smiles on the way.

At one time I was suspicious of BE90 as it seemed too small. Now, it is something I aspire to. I will use smaller courses as a stepping stone, yes even 40cm or 50cm, and I'm not a novice. Everyone has different aspirations, no one's aspirations are any less important than others'.
		
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I totally get this and it is, of course a really good approach for a young/inexperienced horse.  No one needs to feel like they have to train or compete at any particular level; I think there should be something for everyone.  The issue is, potentially, that unaffiliated comps attract so many people that the formal structure of eventing in the UK begins to fall apart; that will impact on everyone.  It is absolutely indicative of problems within the affiliated structure of course and not necessarily the responsibility of individual riders but I understand why those with BE aspirations are frustrated.


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## ycbm (17 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			Yep. Welcome to the future of unaff eventing, where the competitions set whatever unreasonable rules they want. And we will have to lump it, as no overseeing body to keep it fair.
		
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There's nothing unreasonable, or unfair, about a clear rule,  clearly communicated,  which people can either accept or reject as they choose.

I completely understand a non refundable fiver, it's a tiny amount of money, in context, but just enough to make people only go on the wait list if they really intend to turn up.
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## milliepops (17 June 2022)

Money for old rope if they don't make the extra space available to accommodate people off the wait list tho. Taking a payment is justifiable if you want committed people but you shouldn't keep it if they don't get to compete imo


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## Roxylola (17 June 2022)

ycbm said:



			There's nothing unreasonable, or unfair, about a clear rule,  clearly communicated,  which people can either accept or reject as they choose.

I completely understand a non refundable fiver, it's a tiny amount of money, in context, but just enough to make people only go on the wait list if they really intend to turn up.
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Yes, but then no. Initially they said they'd run both days if there was interest. Then they said ooh book quick it's filling up - 6 weeks beforehand. And btw we are running Sunday as clear round... oh but we'll have a wait list for £5
I'd have no problem with the concept, but they didn't have a clear rule, they've changed the rules to suit themselves


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## ycbm (17 June 2022)

milliepops said:



			Money for old rope if they don't make the extra space available to accommodate people off the wait list tho. Taking a payment is justifiable if you want committed people but you shouldn't keep it if they don't get to compete imo
		
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I agree with that to an extent,  but is that actually what they are doing?  Do they not mean "non returnable unless we don't run the second day?"   If that's not what they mean,  it's still not much more than enough to cover admin costs and a tiny amount of money.  If they don't run the second day can you use the fiver against a clear round fee?  
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## Patterdale (17 June 2022)

palo1 said:



			Not sure why I am so interested in this thread but the experience I had a couple of weeks ago sort of illuminates what I am trying to say above (and then I will go away lol). I signed up for a xc clinic with a BE coach. It was my mare's first experience of any xc fences or environment other than a few little hunt jumps and natural terrain that is very familiar to her. It was all about having a bit of fun tbh.  We were in the 70cm class so I expected it to be easy and relaxed. There were 5 of us in that session on a hilly, twisty little course. All on grass but with a bit of surface for t/o and landing.  Lots of what seemed nice, inviting and straightforward jumps. Yay!! I have no BE ambitions at all but 3 of the other participants said they wanted to do a bit.  2 horses deffo overweight.   Coach started us off with a simple corner on a slight (very slight) downhill.  Very clear instructions given and really the jump was below 70cm. Instantly 2 people said they didn't want to jump downhill.  Another one said they didn't want to have to jump away from the other horses!  One other person utterly failed to get their horse out of trot.  We did all have fun in the end but there was much nervous muttering about things which should be 'ok for anyone wanting to tackle fixed obstacles in any kind of competitive situation.    Coach offered the chance to try some of the 80's where appropriate - none of which were anything other than straightforward.  No-one seemed to want to test themselves in spite of the coach giving us a great session with helpful and effective advice that moved everyone on. I was delighted with the clinic and really want to arrange another one with a bit more challenge.  

It was kind of surprising and disappointing.  I could see that everyone there had aspirations (including me) but there was also some not such good stuff in evidence and I really wondered how on earth some of the riders/partnerships were going to bridge the gulf between where they seemed to be at and where they had said they wanted to get to.   I know that possibly they will head for an unaff comp at a reasonably local venue on flat ground at 60cm.  But how will that help them to get to BE?  It is a certain lack of preparedness and of real confidence and skill  that makes people want to take the easiest possible and 'safest' option I suppose.  Each to their own plan as long as it doesn't kill the opportunities that we want I guess.
		
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I don’t think this post is weird. I think it can be summed up as ‘people are so much wetter than they used to be’ which is very true and a major contributor to many of the problems listed in this thread. 

There I said it. 

I even turned into a complete wet lettuce myself upon returning to riding after a break, having read all the confidence (sapping) guff going around on social media. Jumping 50cm courses repeatedly to ‘build confidence,’ never going out of my comfort zone etc etc. 
It took Lucinda Green saying to me on a clinic ‘why are you here if you just want to trot and jump 60cm? Why do xc at all?’ and I said ‘I do want to canter and jump bigger fences but it’s just my confidence I need to build up,’ and she said ‘everyone gets nervous, it’s not special just bloody well go and do it if you want to do it.’ It’s like something snapped back into place in my brain. Every other trainer had been saying ‘oh yes, just jump twigs until you are no longer scared’ well that’s not going to happen is it!?

I honestly think that social media is conditioning riders to think that being perpetually terrified on a horse, and having endless psychotherapy and confidence coaching in order to be able to trot down a hill is usual. It’s not. Lots of people would do much better just getting a grip, and the confidence coach brigade is in my view a large contributory factor to the dumbing down of the sport. Which is not a good thing.


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## RachelFerd (17 June 2022)

Patterdale said:



			I don’t think this post is weird. I think it can be summed up as ‘people are so much wetter than they used to be’ which is very true and a major contributor to many of the problems listed in this thread.

There I said it.

I even turned into a complete wet lettuce myself upon returning to riding after a break, having read all the confidence (sapping) guff going around on social media. Jumping 50cm courses repeatedly to ‘build confidence,’ never going out of my comfort zone etc etc.
It took Lucinda Green saying to me on a clinic ‘why are you here if you just want to trot and jump 60cm? Why do xc at all?’ and I said ‘I do want to canter and jump bigger fences but it’s just my confidence I need to build up,’ and she said ‘everyone gets nervous, it’s not special just bloody well go and do it if you want to do it.’ It’s like something snapped back into place in my brain. Every other trainer had been saying ‘oh yes, just jump twigs until you are no longer scared’ well that’s not going to happen is it!?

I honestly think that social media is conditioning riders to think that being perpetually terrified on a horse, and having endless psychotherapy and confidence coaching in order to be able to trot down a hill is usual. It’s not. Lots of people would do much better just getting a grip, and the confidence coach brigade is in my view a large contributory factor to the dumbing down of the sport. Which is not a good thing.
		
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I have rather enjoyed this post. Well done you - and Lucinda!


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## teapot (17 June 2022)

Patterdale said:



			I don’t think this post is weird. I think it can be summed up as ‘people are so much wetter than they used to be’ which is very true and a major contributor to many of the problems listed in this thread.

There I said it.

I even turned into a complete wet lettuce myself upon returning to riding after a break, having read all the confidence (sapping) guff going around on social media. Jumping 50cm courses repeatedly to ‘build confidence,’ never going out of my comfort zone etc etc.
It took Lucinda Green saying to me on a clinic ‘why are you here if you just want to trot and jump 60cm? Why do xc at all?’ and I said ‘I do want to canter and jump bigger fences but it’s just my confidence I need to build up,’ and she said ‘everyone gets nervous, it’s not special just bloody well go and do it if you want to do it.’ It’s like something snapped back into place in my brain. Every other trainer had been saying ‘oh yes, just jump twigs until you are no longer scared’ well that’s not going to happen is it!?

I honestly think that social media is conditioning riders to think that being perpetually terrified on a horse, and having endless psychotherapy and confidence coaching in order to be able to trot down a hill is usual. It’s not. Lots of people would do much better just getting a grip, and the confidence coach brigade is in my view a large contributory factor to the dumbing down of the sport. Which is not a good thing.
		
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Love this. Similar vein, two weeks ago having been asked to find a horse's fifth gear, said I felt 'out of control', coach raised an eyebrow, tipped head to one side and simply went 'there's a vast difference between being out of control and being a control freak'. Brain took two seconds to go 'absolutely right' and on we went, ended the lesson flying. First time anyone's said that to me and I won't forget it. Learnt more in one lesson than many many others.

So, on that note, has coaching/teaching now passed where it really did need to go, and is stuck in a rut of everything's a journey, a stepping stone, watch our journey on social media, we're aiming for the perfect BE 80 next year, if we achieve our ticklist of goals, and again forgotten that training and education is about hard work, repetition, and sometimes getting on with it?  I'm all for plans and goals, absolutely nothing wrong with those, but has the process itself been dumbed down too? Has it become _too _tick box perfect?

Disgressing from post subject, but I find this stuff fascinating.


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## Red-1 (18 June 2022)

Patterdale said:



			I don’t think this post is weird. I think it can be summed up as ‘people are so much wetter than they used to be’ which is very true and a major contributor to many of the problems listed in this thread. 

There I said it. 

I even turned into a complete wet lettuce myself upon returning to riding after a break, having read all the confidence (sapping) guff going around on social media. Jumping 50cm courses repeatedly to ‘build confidence,’ never going out of my comfort zone etc etc. 
It took Lucinda Green saying to me on a clinic ‘why are you here if you just want to trot and jump 60cm? Why do xc at all?’ and I said ‘I do want to canter and jump bigger fences but it’s just my confidence I need to build up,’ and she said ‘everyone gets nervous, it’s not special just bloody well go and do it if you want to do it.’ It’s like something snapped back into place in my brain. Every other trainer had been saying ‘oh yes, just jump twigs until you are no longer scared’ well that’s not going to happen is it!?

I honestly think that social media is conditioning riders to think that being perpetually terrified on a horse, and having endless psychotherapy and confidence coaching in order to be able to trot down a hill is usual. It’s not. Lots of people would do much better just getting a grip, and the confidence coach brigade is in my view a large contributory factor to the dumbing down of the sport. Which is not a good thing.
		
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I think that is too simplistic. I have been on a Lucinda Green clinic and also ended the session doing far more than I thought possible at the start, on a technical level (I had 2 horses running at BE Novice at the time, I was fine to kick on at a big fence). 

However, I think tarring all confidence coaches with the same brush is also unhelpful. Two previous clients of mine entered the Kilpingcoats Derby (separately, they didn't know each other and it was different years), one jumps FEI, some hunt, event, dressage and SJ. Oh, and quite a few doing endurance too, showing at county level, oh, and cutting (from my time teaching in America). And, yes, some happily hack. I always saw my one of my successes being where a client outgrew me, and went to a discipline specific trainer. No, they didn't do those things while I was their teacher, but they went on to do them, confident in their ability to know what they wanted to do and what they don't. I don't see it as my failure that they did those things with different coaches; I bask in the knowledge that I had a hand in their journey.

That is what I could teach, to recognise risk and own it, deciding what they wanted to do and the level of risk they wanted to take. To plan their next steps. To take charge of their training. 

Your view is a bit like saying that no event coaches are good or effective because some of them have clients who don't progress. Or, I have seen a whole load of accidents on XC schooling sessions where a (respected) coach has pushed people. I was recently on a session where one rider fell twice and only didn't go again because the bridle broke. I wouldn't have been trying either of the exercises with that horse/rider combination. It doesn't mean that all XC coaches are rubbish. 

I also know that, often, it is 'stuff' happening outside of the horses that causes a confidence dip. And yes, sometimes it is appropriate on a lesson to tell someone to kick on, remember what it was like as a kid, before the weight of the world was on your shoulders, ride him like you stole him etc. Often people need time though, it is supposed to be fun.


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## Ambers Echo (18 June 2022)

There are plenty of ‘bloody well get on with it ‘ coaches. That’s nothing new. Many people respond well to it, especially if they like and trust the coach. Or the coach can make them laugh. Some absolutely don’t, leave the lesson feeling like total failures, blame themselves for being wet - and even sometimes  just quit. But if a rider is genuinely scared of a jump (not just talking themselves out of it) they will almost inevitably ride passively at it, take their leg off, look down, chuck the reins away, tip forward etc etc. You can’t just override those reactions because someone is yelling at you.

Passive riding is a bad experience for horse and rider. So yes it’s far too simplistic to say people are just wetter now. A good coach - just like a good horse trainer - knows when a kick up the ar$e is needed or when you need to back off, slow down, try a different way.

 I know a rider who came back from a Somerford clinic, pulled out of the event she was preparing for and has never ridden XC since. Some might say coach did her a favour as she wasn’t cut out for XC but that’s nonsense. Plenty of people can go from fearful and tentative to bold and confident.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (18 June 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Plenty of people can go from fearful and tentative to bold and confident.
		
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And vice versa too 🙃

Having evented way back in time and got to do roads and tracks plus steeplechase by 1980 through to end of 86, I'd now say I'm tentative but probably not fearful. 
Whereas once I'd cheerfully crack on with 3ft 6/9 I now a, haven't got (or want!) the mount to do that and b, I have absolutely desire to do that.
I'm happier bundling around 70/75 at clinics etc on my 14hh, but cheerfully go and help friends out at events when asked as I still enjoy the whole shebang,  just not wanting to do it myself anymore 🙂


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## Ambers Echo (18 June 2022)

Yes there’s that too. Riding XC is fun! Some people have no desire at all to jump big. They just enjoy it at whatever level they are happy with. What on earth is wrong with that? The idea that there is ‘no point’ only jumping 60cm is bizarre. There’s no point to any of it as all sport is fundamentally pointless. So we all do it for our own individual reasons: some are ambitious/competitive, some want to have fun well within their ability.


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## Patterdale (18 June 2022)

Red-1 said:



			Your view is a bit like saying that no event coaches are good or effective because some of them have clients who don't progress. Or, I have seen a whole load of accidents on XC schooling sessions where a (respected) coach has pushed people. I was recently on a session where one rider fell twice and only didn't go again because the bridle broke. I wouldn't have been trying either of the exercises with that horse/rider combination. It doesn't mean that all XC coaches are rubbish.
		
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I think you’ve missed the point a bit. I certainly don’t think that all XC coaches are rubbish or that everyone will be able to do it if they’re told to get on with it. That’s not what I said at all. 

The fact remains though that people ARE much wetter than they used to be and that the world and society very much supports, encourages and enables this - both inside and outside equestrianism. 

This doesn’t mean that I think everyone should be brave, or that there’s anything wrong with jumping 70 forever. There isn’t. 

It’s far deeper than that, it’s a massive attitude shift that I perceive in the last 10-15 years which I DO think has hugely affected many areas of life, eventing included. 
Wanting to jump everything on a surface, to be super duper safe at all times, never leaving the arena, needing £250 stirrups before you can safely put a foot in one, needing an absolutely perfect super-safe robot horse to hang said stirrup on, withdrawing and complaining if the ground is anything but a bowling green. 
There were always these attitudes in the minority before, but nowadays they are positively encouraged by social media in particular. Again, I’m not saying it’s wrong, you do you etc, but I do think that whether right or wrong, it’s having a rapid and possibly irreversible effect on many areas of equestrianism.


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## Ambers Echo (18 June 2022)

I think you’re attacking straw men. Most events are not on a surface. They don’t get cancelled for hard or boggy ground. And eventers at any level very definitely ride outside arenas! So I’m not really sure where that’s all coming from tbh.


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## Patterdale (18 June 2022)

More events than ever are on a surface; every year there are fewer on grass and more on surfaces across all disciplines. This has been a massive change in the last 10-15 years and is driven by many competitors not wanting to ride on grass. 

Events don’t often get cancelled for hard or boggy ground, but many riders certainly withdraw and don’t go back if it’s not perfect. 

And many, MANY riders across all disciplines (including high level eventing) do the vast majority of their riding on a surface. With hacking on lanes and trips to the (pristine or surfaced) gallops as their out-of-arena time. 

Again - not attacking this. But it’s all fact and it’s all having an impact on the way equestrian events are run.


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## Rowreach (18 June 2022)

It wasn't that long ago that eventers were complaining about grass roots classes dumbing down the sport, but failing to acknowledge that by bringing it under the official umbrella it was effectively destroying the UA scene which some people loved and relied on. And now the tables have turned.

Changes happen and they'll always annoy somebody. I don't think it's fair to blame the end user.


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## Ambers Echo (18 June 2022)

Ok well that’s slightly different from riders are getting wetter

I think huge increases in traffic make hacking less safe or appealing in many parts of the country. That definitely is a problem.

Riding schools are more health n safety conscious - largely driven by insurance requirements- so that kind of messing about - bareback etc isn’t done as much. 

I’m impressed by riders who write off £100+ to withdraw to save their horses legs on hard ground. Michen being one. She’s hardly ‘wet’! She’s bold and spends all winter hunting. Considering the welfare of the animal you’re on is not a regressive step I don’t think. 

Similar points have been made up thread about riders all round education these days and the way in which opportunities for some of the foundations are decreasing. I agree with all of that though I’m not sure what the solution is.


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## palo1 (18 June 2022)

FWIW I have been both bold/fearless and fearful in my time as a rider - including whilst I was interested in and participating in eventing training and competing.  Some people deal with fear by being aggressive, internalising their fear, being difficult to deal with; I think we have all seen those responses.  Some people need a 'tough love' coach, others need something gentler and more progressive.  For every situation there is a 'perfect' response though we don't always find that.  The thing I have seen, undoubtedly, and which is increasingly legitimised (and in fact, capitalised on in my view) is the increase in fearfulness, of lack of conviction and of lack of desire and tools to move away from that position.  Yet fear is the thing that we should not take to our horses; it's not fair on them and potentially dangerous to us.  Fear is something that people need to talk about and find strategies to deal with but it IS more of an issue in equestrianism than it has been previously.  I understand feeling frightened or lacking in confidence but it is on another level in the kind of culture we have where 'confidence' is commoditised rather than dealt with internally, emotionally and on a personal level.  

The best advice, that which I have found life-changing in terms of horsemanship, has been to own my fearfulness, deal with it and never to put that on a horse or another person.  That is just me and I have found coaching really helpful in lots of ways, as I have found working progressively to be useful but neither coaching nor working methods address the fundamental issue that horsemanship needs our internal confidence to have real integrity and not be reliant on 'conditions' or tack, or unshakeable routines, familiar obstacles or the minute by minute advice from a coach.  Those are the things that I see being commoditised and which I think hamper riders' development.  It's not unsurprising that there are many people who are happy to keep riders in a state of learned helplessness to a degree - many of them are genuinely trying to address issues of confidence but in my view (possibly alone!!) that is not the key. 

I think it is complicated at the same time as being quite simple!!  As a culture we are far more risk averse, fearful and willing to pin our hopes on external help but the attitudes we have toward risk or challenge have to be developed internally and I don't think there are many coaches doing that. Or perhaps doing it well.


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## HashRouge (18 June 2022)

Patterdale said:



			Again - not attacking this. But it’s all fact and it’s all having an impact on the way equestrian events are run.
		
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I don't know, you keep saying this but it still feels like this thread has turned into an excuse to slag off nervous riders. I still don't fully understand how the nervous nellies who are content to pop round a 50/60cm hunter trial can be having any impact further up the eventing levels. I'm also not convinced that people are "wetter" (hate that word ) - surely it's just that people who are less confident are now given the encouragement to continue and/or the opportunities to compete at a lower level, whereas previously they wouldn't have been and might have given up or stuck to hacking?

You keep mentioning that more events are run on a surface these days, but doesn't that just reflect the fact that it is now extremely common for equestrian centres to have multiple indoor and outdoor arenas, that they might as well use? Whereas in the past, grass was the only option. You can understand why they'd rather make use of their surfaced arenas, especially if the ground is wet and might be easily churned up. The local shows near me are generally still on grass and always get lots of entries (including jumping). But they also have to cancel if it is too wet or risk trashing the ground...

ETA I also don't see how sitting around moaning about the nervous nellies is going to help. Somewhere along the way someone decided that there was money to be made out of 50/60/70cm events, so these are not going away. Complaining about it or expressing your surprise that anyone could possibly enjoy competing at such a low level is not going to help solve the problems that BE has for those of you competing at higher levels. I genuinely don't understand how someone wanting to pop round a 70cm course on their little cob has any bearing on the fact that there aren't enough entries at somewhere like Cholmondeley.


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## Ambers Echo (18 June 2022)

Palo1 I’d agree confidence is fundamentally a choice! As in it’s a mindset you can choose to learn if you want to.


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## Patterdale (18 June 2022)

It’s not a pop at nervous riders, it’s a pop at a societal system that encourages and enables extreme nerves and risk aversion as a normal and acceptable state of everyday life. 

I’m not typing it out fully again, if you frame it as an attack on nervous riders then I don’t think you can have read my post(s) properly.


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## RachelFerd (18 June 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Yes there’s that too. Riding XC is fun! Some people have no desire at all to jump big. They just enjoy it at whatever level they are happy with. What on earth is wrong with that? The idea that there is ‘no point’ only jumping 60cm is bizarre. There’s no point to any of it as all sport is fundamentally pointless. So we all do it for our own individual reasons: some are ambitious/competitive, some want to have fun well within their ability.
		
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Another controversial point of view from me... Is that it is all very well jumping little fences if horse and rider are safe and happy. But often riders are overmounted on well bred athletic horses - and these horses do not learn to jump safely and well over tiny fences. Tiny fences act like trip rails, and ridden at speed, become frighteningly dangerous. Having spent years training their horses to jump with poor technique over small fences, the path to then move up to 80/90/100 becomes more dangerous, not less. 

I actually spend a lot of time trotting at tiny jumps as a training exercise (Lucinda green calls it 'floppy jumping') as it's a switching off exercise for my buzzy youngster. But it's part of a training approach, I don't really understand it as the final destination. If it was all I did, he'd never actually learn to make a shape, snap up his front legs and jump successfully.

Anyway - so long as everyone's safe, that's the main thing.


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## palo1 (18 June 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Palo1 I’d agree confidence is fundamentally a choice! As in it’s a mindset you can choose to learn if you want to.
		
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Yes and there are different ways to get there.  What I find really concerning is the way that fear is kind of 'accepted' or legitimised now when for aeons we have known that fear and horses are a bad mix.  For me, it simply isn't fair on a horse to take that fear with you.  I don't think it matters what you are doing; just walking, working in hand, having horses as field pets, competing at 40 or 50cm - fear/nervousness/lack of emotional stability and confidence are really negative things for horses to deal with.  Years ago I had a lovely young horse that was pretty sharp; I was definitely a bit intimidated if not actively fearful of starting him and riding him. I had some brilliant, straight up advice about that and decided, in a transformative moment that whatever I did with that horse, it had to have emotional integrity; that he would not have to deal with my fear - even if that only meant I could do very little with him.  Of course, that young horse had no idea what he 'should' have been doing so he didn't mind at all and we made great progress in the end - he was a bit of a devil but I had made the shift away from fear mitigation as it were so we had a good partnership in learning, I always felt confident and happy in what I was doing with him and he never (well, almost never!) had to deal with my negative emotional state. I achieved more with that mindset than I ever would have believed possible and I am really grateful for that but it means I can see how others feel and react sometimes in a way that really isn't going to help them develop and achieve stuff. I know other folk know this too!!


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## Ambers Echo (18 June 2022)

Yes I agree which is why firing a scared rider at a fence with a 'bloody get on with it' attitude is not fair on horse or rider. And is dangeorus because at the last minute fear takes over and you go into 'freeze' mode and you take your leg off or whatever and ride passively.

To me confidence coaching (sport psychology) is nothing to do with patting riders on the head and saying 'bless, just keep jumps small then'. That is patronising and unhelpful. But nor is it just about a 'get a grip' message. Confidence coaching is about helping a person manage their nerves (biology) and cultivate a positive, focused mindset (psychology) that allows them to access their skills and ride effectively and achieve success - ie learn/make progress. In what you are doing, in how well you are riding and in how confident you are feeling. In the end the only way you really feel good over fences is by having good experiences over fences so any coach legitimising fear as a normal end state rather than an issue to overcome, or keeping people in learned helplessness is not really doing much good for the rider


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## RachelFerd (18 June 2022)

palo1 said:



			Yes and there are different ways to get there.  What I find really concerning is the way that fear is kind of 'accepted' or legitimised now when for aeons we have known that fear and horses are a bad mix.  For me, it simply isn't fair on a horse to take that fear with you.  I don't think it matters what you are doing; just walking, working in hand, having horses as field pets, competing at 40 or 50cm - fear/nervousness/lack of emotional stability and confidence are really negative things for horses to deal with.  Years ago I had a lovely young horse that was pretty sharp; I was definitely a bit intimidated if not actively fearful of starting him and riding him. I had some brilliant, straight up advice about that and decided, in a transformative moment that whatever I did with that horse, it had to have emotional integrity; that he would not have to deal with my fear - even if that only meant I could do very little with him.  Of course, that young horse had no idea what he 'should' have been doing so he didn't mind at all and we made great progress in the end - he was a bit of a devil but I had made the shift away from fear mitigation as it were so we had a good partnership in learning, I always felt confident and happy in what I was doing with him and he never (well, almost never!) had to deal with my negative emotional state. I achieved more with that mindset than I ever would have believed possible and I am really grateful for that but it means I can see how others feel and react sometimes in a way that really isn't going to help them develop and achieve stuff. I know other folk know this too!!
		
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Trying to watch luhmuhlen as I write this - so probably not going to articulate it well. But I think it was milliepops on here that said "it's never the horses fault when a competition goes wrong, because they didn't choose to be there" - but for me this is the crux of some of the issues at play. The rush to compete instead of continuing to train, because the small competitions are there. For me, competition is the thing you so once, and ONLY once you think you've done all of the necessary training. And what I've found, as my training has got a bit better, is that I now feel far more confident when I compete, because I know I've been more thorough about the training. Competing stops being scary and frightening if you know you've done all of the right training and that your horse understands how to answer all of the questions at a level. So I think the rush to compete creates fear - whereas competition should just be something you do to test and confirm your training. And training is the fun process that you do because you love it. 

When you're actively really frightened, I think that's symptomatic of major parts of training of horse or rider are missing - and relationship of horse and rider is not ready to be tested. A sense of being continually in a state of fear shouldn't be accepted - it's common but has to be resolved, not allowed to continue and fester away...


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## Ambers Echo (18 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			When you're actively really frightened, I think that's symptomatic of major parts of training of horse or rider are missing - and relationship of horse and rider is not ready to be tested. A sense of being continually in a state of fear shouldn't be accepted - it's common but has to be resolved, not allowed to continue and fester away...
		
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Sometimes but not always. At the camps there are occasionally partnerhsips that are just not ready to be doing what they want to do. Their fear is not irrational, and I am always very frank about that. But that is rare. Most people who are truly frightened have ridden to a high level in the past and have lost their nerve through accidents or near misses. Nothing wrong with their skills or training. They have often spent thousands on lessons/training. The missing link is their own mindset.


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## RachelFerd (18 June 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Sometimes but not always. At the camps there are occasionally partnerhsips that are just not ready to be doing what they want to do. Their fear is not irrational, and I am always very frank about that. But that is rare. Most people who are truly frightened have ridden to a high level in the past and have lost their nerve through accidents or near misses. Nothing wrong with their skills or training. They have often spent thousands on lessons/training. The missing link is their own mindset.
		
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Yes, but my point is, the horse/rider relationship is not in a functionally good place if rider is terrified. So why compete until you've got the jigsaw pieces back in place? Because it's not fun for horse or rider if you're pushing to compete - even at tiny heights - if rider is actively frightened (which is different to a few normal buzzy nerves).


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## TPO (18 June 2022)

Along the same sort of lines though everyone has to "be kind". Sometimes the truth isn't particularly kind or palatable.

I remember a load of CR HHOers left here and went to Twitter Eventing on FB. They were very experienced and decent people. They posted concerns, not in a nasty way, about videos and photos of combinations who were dangerous and worrying and were shouted down that the page was *only* to be supportive and encouraging. Needless to say it didn't take long for the posters who knew what they were talking about to scarper leaving  the place as an echo tunnel.

I don't have a dog in the fight but I have eyes. I see so many pictures and videos, as well as RL, of horrendously bad (& cruel imo. Riders hanging off strapped shut mouths while gripping up with spur clad legs) to an avalanche of well dones and praise. Even on here there's been "funny" videos of riders left behind over fences, "oops" isn't funny when it's the poor horses mouth, nose and back constantly taking the brunt of it because they don't improve. I'm not saying that rubbish riders should be lambasted on SM but there's been a failing somewhere along the line that they think they are capable and as long as they get around the course all well.

I've read and heard so much of people saying that straight talking is cruel and if they want to event then they will.

The amount of riders "eventing" who don't have any balance or and independent seat, can't/couldn't ride without stirrups or reins, can't/couldn't even do pole exercises and influence/control canter strides, create and keep rhythm, Heck even do 2 point position. But its their right (entitlement) to event...

Thats why I think that BE should be "policing" lower levels far stronger than they are. If safety and training are priorities then there is a serious lapse. 

Sure folk might not like that and toddle off to unaff (which isn't the free for all that is implied on here) but id they want the "prestige" of calling themselves an eventer every 5mins then they would need to crack into BE. 

There's no motivation to improve or be good enough for your chosen level because people now act like they are entitled to do what they want on whatever their money can buy.


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## Red-1 (18 June 2022)

palo1 said:



			Yes and there are different ways to get there.  What I find really concerning is the way that fear is kind of 'accepted' or legitimised now when for aeons we have known that fear and horses are a bad mix.  For me, it simply isn't fair on a horse to take that fear with you.  I don't think it matters what you are doing; just walking, working in hand, having horses as field pets, competing at 40 or 50cm - fear/nervousness/lack of emotional stability and confidence are really negative things for horses to deal with.  Years ago I had a lovely young horse that was pretty sharp; I was definitely a bit intimidated if not actively fearful of starting him and riding him. I had some brilliant, straight up advice about that and decided, in a transformative moment that whatever I did with that horse, it had to have emotional integrity; that he would not have to deal with my fear - even if that only meant I could do very little with him.  Of course, that young horse had no idea what he 'should' have been doing so he didn't mind at all and we made great progress in the end - he was a bit of a devil but I had made the shift away from fear mitigation as it were so we had a good partnership in learning, I always felt confident and happy in what I was doing with him and he never (well, almost never!) had to deal with my negative emotional state. I achieved more with that mindset than I ever would have believed possible and I am really grateful for that but it means I can see how others feel and react sometimes in a way that really isn't going to help them develop and achieve stuff. I know other folk know this too!!
		
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And this is where my confidence coaching focused. To backtrack to find the place where people WERE confident. Then work a step at a time, towards to goal, but staying within the buzzy excitement zone rather than the frightened zone. 

I could always remember, when I was at the top of my game, that people would say how confident I was. And I was, I did stacks of 'stuff' including new stuff such as cutting in America. But I wasn't confident in the way they thought, I was just confident to confidently say what I was confident to do and what I was not. Nothing was scary as I was confident to say that yes, I would do this, or no, I would not do that. I



Ambers Echo said:



			Sometimes but not always. At the camps there are occasionally partnerhsips that are just not ready to be doing what they want to do. Their fear is not irrational, and I am always very frank about that. But that is rare. Most people who are truly frightened have ridden to a high level in the past and have lost their nerve through accidents or near misses. Nothing wrong with their skills or training. They have often spent thousands on lessons/training. The missing link is their own mindset.
		
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That was a trap that I was in, so I think that I have some perspective on a possible reason for this. I knew what it 'should' feel like, yet I was no longer the same rider. I could feel the deficiencies. Other people could see that I had the skills and knowledge and would press me to do more. In my case, I applied my own confidence coaching philosophy and drew right back to where I did feel safe, in my case it was old Rigsby cob, where I even started with months of in hand walking. I have kept things to the happy buzzy stage, got him out and about. Then, I regained my confidence to dare to state what I would confidently do and what I would not. Suddenly, I was confident to buy a 4yo, unseen, from Ireland. I was confident that I would only do what I was confident to do...

We are progressing nicely, at my pace. Not making the horse pay for any past ghosts. TBH, I think my concerns were all legitimate. I had lost core strength, an eye for a stride, was stodgy in my riding. I was genuinely at risk. Last XC schooling session, we upped the game and baby horse put in some green balloon jumps. I was ecstatic as I could sit with him. Second jumps were always good, but I needed match practice to be able to sit the first wobbly balloon jumps to start with.  

I am deeply happy to be able to declare that I would, right now,  be delighted to do a 50cm hunter trial. That is confidence. TBH, at the moment, my own confidence has built quicker than baby horse's ability. I am fighting having trainers who think we should be doing more, as we look, externally, good. I am now confident that I know my own horse. I am personally ready for an 80cm hunter trial. Not big compared to where I was, but I am confident that this is where I am at, personally, now. The horse, however, needs more time trotting or steady cantering to many small fences, so he feels confident enough not to balloon.  50cm would be fantastic.

I have been doing the weekend threads, it is obvious that we have been making progression. Even if that progression is at my pace, nit the pace that some trainers think it should be.

Generally, I found that my confidence clients had a genuine reason the be scared. Often the horse was in pain, even if presenting as 'sound' and that makes them give off an electric (how I feel it) unpredictability. Sometimes they were, indeed, simply over horsed. Often, when people are no longer as good as they were, they need time to re-gage what their abilities are. Re build. If they are simply out of practice they need to start low risk to get fitness back and brush up technique. If they had a one off accident, it can shake your belief that you had accurately risk assessed. In that case you can need to go on a quest to find the hole in your knowledge. Or, just build back up to appreciate that sometimes Sh%t happens. Sometimes it is external stresses (non horse related) that mean you are like trigger stacking, at the limits of your risk. In that case, just ticking over until life catches up is good, but doing it mindfully and without guilt.  Knowing why you feel as you do is helpful to be confident that you know the cause and have a plan.


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## milliepops (18 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			Yes, but my point is, the horse/rider relationship is not in a functionally good place if rider is terrified. So why compete until you've got the jigsaw pieces back in place? Because it's not fun for horse or rider if you're pushing to compete - even at tiny heights - if rider is actively frightened (which is different to a few normal buzzy nerves).
		
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I agree with this. In some ways this is me at the moment. I have mostly had shitty horses to ride for years now and whereas in the past i was a "get on anything" person, the combination of years of battling away with mostly unrewarding riding, broken horses and increased responsibilities in my "home" life meaning i can't afford to get injured, have left me a bit... yes, wet, for want of a better word.  

My current ride is another challenge, sharp, silly and athletic.  Training and plugging away at home is the place to deal with that and when we get to the point where horse and I are ready to compete we will be ready to come out at medium by that point. I'm not going to put either of us through walk and trot tests NOW, the foundations aren't solid enough between us  to deal with any additional pressures.  

Part of this issue may boil back down to a sort of instant gratification culture though where people just want to get out competing because the reality of training until you are "better" (in whatever form that is) is hard, sometimes not very fun at all and can take a long time.  Though i know people will say that there are lots of people who aren't interested in improving particularly and just want to enjoy their horses... i know i am definitely on the constant self improvement side of the fence which colours my view of things.  I think i have gravitated towards my personal standpoint because i've never been able to buy an enjoyable horse!!


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## Ambers Echo (18 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			Yes, but my point is, the horse/rider relationship is not in a functionally good place if rider is terrified. So why compete until you've got the jigsaw pieces back in place? Because it's not fun for horse or rider if you're pushing to compete - even at tiny heights - if rider is actively frightened (which is different to a few normal buzzy nerves).
		
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Sorry I did not realise you were takling abouty competing. I agree, scared riders should not be competing. Unless they are perfectly capable but just fall apart in competition, Which happens in all sports at all levels and is a different problem again.


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## Red-1 (18 June 2022)

milliepops said:



			I agree with this. In some ways this is me at the moment. I have mostly had shitty horses to ride for years now and whereas in the past i was a "get on anything" person, the combination of years of battling away with mostly unrewarding riding, broken horses and increased responsibilities in my "home" life meaning i can't afford to get injured, have left me a bit... yes, wet, for want of a better word.  

My current ride is another challenge, sharp, silly and athletic.  Training and plugging away at home is the place to deal with that and when we get to the point where horse and I are ready to compete we will be ready to come out at medium by that point. I'm not going to put either of us through walk and trot tests NOW, the foundations aren't solid enough between us  to deal with any additional pressures.  

Part of this issue may boil back down to a sort of instant gratification culture though where people just want to get out competing because the reality of training until you are "better" (in whatever form that is) is hard, sometimes not very fun at all and can take a long time.  Though i know people will say that there are lots of people who aren't interested in improving particularly and just want to enjoy their horses... i know i am definitely on the constant self improvement side of the fence which colours my view of things.  I think i have gravitated towards my personal standpoint because i've never been able to buy an enjoyable horse!!
		
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I have had horses like this, where I haven't gone SJ until we are at discovery, or starting dressage at Novice (more to hold their attention anyway), or first XC competition experience has been at BE 90. They have tended to be the more athletic, sharp animals. My current one is more docile. It feels like we don't need to be better prepared to go out having fun. He is learning more by having many little experiences. Horses for courses, I guess. Current one just needs to come out of his shell a little, I don't need as much submission or sharpness to the aids.

We have, so far, enjoyed 2 intro tests and a prelim. And one SJ clear round at 40cm! The 40cm clear round was great., We had been training mainly at 60cm, but at the actual show he went into his shell a little and broke to trot a few times so he had time for a look. A 50cm hunter trial would be great, for him. With the sharper, more athletic horses of my youth, it would not have been so successful.


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## RachelFerd (18 June 2022)

milliepops said:



			I agree with this. In some ways this is me at the moment. I have mostly had shitty horses to ride for years now and whereas in the past i was a "get on anything" person, the combination of years of battling away with mostly unrewarding riding, broken horses and increased responsibilities in my "home" life meaning i can't afford to get injured, have left me a bit... yes, wet, for want of a better word. 

My current ride is another challenge, sharp, silly and athletic.  Training and plugging away at home is the place to deal with that and when we get to the point where horse and I are ready to compete we will be ready to come out at medium by that point. I'm not going to put either of us through walk and trot tests NOW, the foundations aren't solid enough between us  to deal with any additional pressures. 

Part of this issue may boil back down to a sort of instant gratification culture though where people just want to get out competing because the reality of training until you are "better" (in whatever form that is) is hard, sometimes not very fun at all and can take a long time.  Though i know people will say that there are lots of people who aren't interested in improving particularly and just want to enjoy their horses... i know i am definitely on the constant self improvement side of the fence which colours my view of things.  I think i have gravitated towards my personal standpoint because i've never been able to buy an enjoyable horse!!
		
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I think where I'd be happy for this all to land, is a reduced competition calendar for all disciplines and a move towards a training culture, not a compete, compete, compete culture. My view is still that there's no real role for unaffiliated competitions, unless they're running as hybrid training/competition experiences. When it comes to eventing, I think a slightly smaller and selective set of events combined with MORE local training and non-competitive training events should be the correct - more horse friendly - route. 

Your comments re. starting at medium make sense (not that I've ever managed to ride a Dr tes at that level...) Because, actually, to have built the skills and relationship required to ride a sharp horse confidently in a competition environment, of course your training should have accelerated well beyond walk+trot or prelim tests.


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## Red-1 (18 June 2022)

Patterdale said:



			I think you’ve missed the point a bit. I certainly don’t think that all XC coaches are rubbish or that everyone will be able to do it if they’re told to get on with it. That’s not what I said at all. 

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I was reponding to this part of your post...



Patterdale said:



			Lots of people would do much better just getting a grip, and the confidence coach brigade is in my view a large contributory factor to the dumbing down of the sport. Which is not a good thing.
		
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I was illustrating that there are good and bad confidence coaches, as there are good and bad XC coaches. 

I believe that lumping everyone into a 'brigade' is unhelpful.


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## Red-1 (18 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I think where I'd be happy for this all to land, is a reduced competition calendar for all disciplines and a move towards a training culture, not a compete, compete, compete culture. My view is still that there's no real role for unaffiliated competitions, unless they're running as hybrid training/competition experiences. When it comes to eventing, I think a slightly smaller and selective set of events combined with MORE local training and non-competitive training events should be the correct - more horse friendly - route. 

Your comments re. starting at medium make sense (not that I've ever managed to ride a Dr tes at that level...) Because, actually, to have built the skills and relationship required to ride a sharp horse confidently in a competition environment, of course your training should have accelerated well beyond walk+trot or prelim tests.
		
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I guess that is dependent on how you view competitions. Even when doing BE Novice, I rode each one as a training event as well as a competition. For me, it is all about improving the horse at every outing cpmpetition or not.

I like competitions as

1. I like the social.
2. I can get complacent at home and like to go to an external competition to ride a set of circumstances that I didn't set up for personal success. I like that it calls me out on my complacency and it keeps me real.
3. I like the photos. 
4. I like to be part of something. 
5. Success is sweet.


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## palo1 (18 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I think where I'd be happy for this all to land, is a reduced competition calendar for all disciplines and a move towards a training culture, not a compete, compete, compete culture. My view is still that there's no real role for unaffiliated competitions, unless they're running as hybrid training/competition experiences. When it comes to eventing, I think a slightly smaller and selective set of events combined with MORE local training and non-competitive training events should be the correct - more horse friendly - route.

Your comments re. starting at medium make sense (not that I've ever managed to ride a Dr tes at that level...) Because, actually, to have built the skills and relationship required to ride a sharp horse confidently in a competition environment, of course your training should have accelerated well beyond walk+trot or prelim tests.
		
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Yes, I couldn't agree more with this. It would help to engender a training focus rather than competition focus - which would be advantageous all round.  It would be a significant change in our UK equestrian culture though as everyone wants to say they are competing atm. I have even had people describe a fun ride as a 'competition' lol...but that was just silliness. I think...

It makes sense that having very low level comps will encourage people to 'aim' for those when in fact training should be the focus at that point.  I think!


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## RachelFerd (18 June 2022)

Red-1 said:



			I guess that is dependent on how you view competitions. Even when doing BE Novice, I rode each one as a training event as well as a competition. For me, it is all about improving the horse at every outing cpmpetition or not.

I like competitions as

1. I like the social.
2. I can get complacent at home and like to go to an external competition to ride a set of circumstances that I didn't set up for personal success. I like that it calls me out on my complacency and it keeps me real.
3. I like the photos.
4. I like to be part of something.
5. Success is sweet.
		
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Well, every time you sit on a horse you're training it, so yes competition is also training. But often competition turns into 'untraining' because something goes wrong, and the competition environment doesn't allow it to be resolved properly. And yet people will keep going out and getting eliminated over and over again?!?


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## palo1 (18 June 2022)

Red-1 said:



			I guess that is dependent on how you view competitions. Even when doing BE Novice, I rode each one as a training event as well as a competition. For me, it is all about improving the horse at every outing cpmpetition or not.

I like competitions as

1. I like the social.
2. I can get complacent at home and like to go to an external competition to ride a set of circumstances that I didn't set up for personal success. I like that it calls me out on my complacency and it keeps me real.
3. I like the photos.
4. I like to be part of something.
5. Success is sweet.
		
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Alternatively, novice riders see the 'competition' as the end game so train for those particular requirements, they are not 'ready' when they arrive at the competition and it is hard so perhaps not much is learnt or taken home, or they may have been coached to that competition and no further.  Photos are nice of course.  Training can provide a really fab community without the 'stress' or expenditure of competition and we would all benefit from more training opportunities.  Success is sweet but a disappointing day at a comp is very disheartening.


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## Red-1 (18 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			Well, every time you sit on a horse you're training it, so yes competition is also training. But often competition turns into 'untraining' because something goes wrong, and the competition environment doesn't allow it to be resolved properly. And yet people will keep going out and getting eliminated over and over again?!?
		
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palo1 said:



			Alternatively, novice riders see the 'competition' as the end game so train for those particular requirements, they are not 'ready' when they arrive at the competition and it is hard so perhaps not much is learnt or taken home, or they may have been coached to that competition and no further.  Photos are nice of course.  Training can provide a really fab community without the 'stress' or expenditure of competition and we would all benefit from more training opportunities.  Success is sweet but a disappointing day at a comp is very disheartening.
		
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Well, I modify my answer than to specify that competition is only useful training if the horse and rider are prepared for that level! LOL. Anyone being eliminated over and over again, I would hope it would be obvious that more training is necessary. But that is the same at any level. My BE record is respectable, usually complete with clear XC. Any less than that, we dropped down a level to train more, iron out the wrinkles and go back to be tested at the higher level when prepared. You sometimes need the spotlight of the competition to see the holes though, or at least I did. 

But that is kind of my point too, as baby horse and I were indeed ready to do our first prelim, for example, as we did a super test (and in fact won) so it was positive. We didn't need to be ready to do a medium to do a competition.  The two intros had got him out of his shell - the first intro he did he actually fell to walk up the centre line as he felt somewhat overawed. The second intro was much improved, so we did the prelim. The clear round was where we were at, and we did a clear round. It needed to be small, for him, though, as again he felt shy and so the smaller jumps ensured it was about him feeling comfortable rather than about the jumping. Next time, we plan on bigger. Although, were he a hot and athletic one, we may have needed to be ready for a higher level of competition for the training to be advanced enough for the collecting ring even, a with my previous competition horses.

My point is that, as long as the combination is prepared for the level at which they compete, and as long as the basic training is there to cope with the eventualities of being in a busy atmosphere, then there is no harm in an intro, or 40cm jumping, or 50cm hunter trial.

All horses and riders are different, you can't compare apples with pears. Competitions per se are not the enemy, even at the lowest levels.

The cruellest rider I ever saw was someone prepping for the London 2012 Olympics. Horse beaten unmercifully. Crap riding occurs at all levels. IMO, it isn't the level that matters, as long as horse and rider are appropriately prepared for the level they aspire to.


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## TPO (18 June 2022)

Red-1 said:



			My point is that, as long as the combination is prepared for the level at which they compete, and as long as the basic training is there to cope with the eventualities of being in a busy atmosphere, then there is no harm in an intro, or 40cm jumping, or 50cm hunter trial.
		
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IME of rl and sm the problem is that there *are* people out doing x, y and z who aren't prepared, able or educated about what level their training should be at.

I've literally just seen a video on sm of someone who can't even trot half a circle on the "eventer" they bought who's out doing BE. There's a plethora of pro pics showing how great their day was and their awful position  is very negatively affecting the horse. The SM brigade, and can only assume friends and trainers in rl, are all very encouraging.

I know be80 is "training" but perhaps that needs to extend to 90 & have the riders watched a lot closer. 

My thoughts are similar to MP, RF and Palo I think (no offence if wrong and tarring you with my bad brush) but I want to be good and capable before I go anywhere so I practice and train. If you seriously can't trot and canter circles,meet take off points, sit in balance and be with your horse over a fence then you shouldn't be "eventing" until you've mastered the basics regardless of if it'd 40cm or 100cm.

 Now its all about being an "eventer" like its an exclusive club you can buy into rather than  train for.


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## honetpot (18 June 2022)

palo1 said:



			Alternatively, novice riders see the 'competition' as the end game so train for those particular requirements, they are not 'ready' when they arrive at the competition and it is hard so perhaps not much is learnt or taken home, or they may have been coached to that competition and no further.  Photos are nice of course.  Training can provide a really fab community without the 'stress' or expenditure of competition and we would all benefit from more training opportunities.  Success is sweet but a disappointing day at a comp is very disheartening.
		
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  I think people underestimate how tiring the XC is both mentally and physically on them and the horse. Practising  the components of a competition in training is not the same thing in effort terms as completing it in one go. People very rarely ride for more than an hour in trot and canter on uneven ground, with the physical adjustments that needs, where I live you would have to travel to find a hill. So even if you are practicing and getting right the jumping efforts in training, in a real event you have nerves, distractions, and both the and the horses level of overall fitness to take into account.
  If you think of competitive ice skaters, they spend hours in training, just to get the jump perfect, their routines are judged on the difficulty of the jump, and they have a set number to complete in competition, but even at top level in competition they will either modify the jump to something easier, or fall. Just because they can do a jump in training, they factor in that they may not be able to pull it off on the day of competition.
  The last time I when to our local ODE, which is a centre, so the fences are a BE level, I was amazed at how many riders and horses did not look what I would call hunting fit, if I was the owner of the animal I would not be happy.


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## Red-1 (18 June 2022)

TPO said:



			IME of rl and sm the problem is that there *are* people out doing x, y and z who aren't prepared, able or educated about what level their training should be at.

I've literally just seen a video on sm of someone who can't even trot half a circle on the "eventer" they bought who's out doing BE. There's a plethora of pro pics showing how great their day was and their awful position  is very negatively affecting the horse. The SM brigade, and can only assume friends and trainers in rl, are all very encouraging.

I know be80 is "training" but perhaps that needs to extend to 90 & have the riders watched a lot closer. 

My thoughts are similar to MP, RF and Palo I think (no offence if wrong and tarring you with my bad brush) but I want to be good and capable before I go anywhere so I practice and train. If you seriously can't trot and canter circles,meet take off points, sit in balance and be with your horse over a fence then you shouldn't be "eventing" until you've mastered the basics regardless of if it'd 40cm or 100cm.

 Now its all about being an "eventer" like its an exclusive club you can buy into rather than  train for.
		
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And I don't think that anyone would argue that the riders you highlight should be out eventing. But, to me, that isn't a reason to invalidate the whole height range.


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## milliepops (18 June 2022)

Red-1 said:



			And I don't think that anyone would argue that the riders you highlight should be out eventing. But, to me, that isn't a reason to invalidate the whole height range.
		
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it's not, but the problem (if we agree there is one) is that most people on anything other than an 8hh pony can to a degree point and shoot round the smaller courses and the if the horse is honest enough it will make it happen. in a way that you just couldn't manage, or would be put off from trying, round bigger courses.   the inviting nature might be too inviting?


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## ester (18 June 2022)

Red-1 said:



			I guess that is dependent on how you view competitions. Even when doing BE Novice, I rode each one as a training event as well as a competition. For me, it is all about improving the horse at every outing cpmpetition or not.

I like competitions as

1. I like the social.
2. I can get complacent at home and like to go to an external competition to ride a set of circumstances that I didn't set up for personal success. I like that it calls me out on my complacency and it keeps me real.
3. I like the photos.
4. I like to be part of something.
5. Success is sweet.
		
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I think I only know a couple of people who compete for the results (to win/place etc) for most it's a nice add on to the day if it happens.


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## Rowreach (18 June 2022)

Just in from work and catching up, and there are some interesting departures from the original OP that bring us right around to this, if I’m reading you correctly:

Novicey horse and rider combinations shouldn’t be going out competing anywhere, so presumably that covers both UA and A competitions. So that wont beef up entries for BE, it will mean everyone trains at home until they’re able to come out at a higher level, which brings us back to BE starting at the old Novice level, which was financially unsustainable until they introduced grass roots levels.

What exactly do you all want to happen? No opportunity for anyone to compete, ever, and only the elite ever get enough training in to get out at BE?

Some of the comments read as if people want to do their shopping at an expensive independent grocer with restricted opening hours, and are pissed off that others who need to eat find Tesco cheaper and more convenient.

Not all amateur riders are sh*t scared you know. Some of them have realised that in amongst every other aspect of a busy life, going out and having a cracking day out with their horse over less challenging heights is simply bloody great fun, and for those who can still afford it, good luck to them.


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## MuddyMonster (18 June 2022)

I ride at 50/60cm and the idea that anyone thinks it is impacting BE is quite surprising to me.

I find it hard to get my head around anyone riding at a higher level is bothered about the riders that are making their way around an unaffiliated 50cm on a Saturday morning for a fun day out - just as wouldn't expect a high level endurance rider to care about my 20km ride or a team GB Trec rider to care about my paltry PTV score. 

Riding for me isn't at all about going BE as an end goal. I have zero desire to ever do a BE (or really jump higher than I am currently) so why shouldn't I go out for a morning training, or heaven forbid competing, over a local 50 or 60cm course if I fancy it?

It's not taking money or entries away from BE as I'd never spend it there anyway. If the 50 or 60cm courses didn't exist, that money I spent just wouldn't be going to anyone in the industry - the trainer of the clinics, the clear round or XC event organisers, the local photographers or the family running the burger van.


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## milliepops (18 June 2022)

I don't want no one to ever be able to go out and compete and my comment about coming out at a higher level was mainly to do with one particular nightmare of a horse rather than a general principle, but I suppose the general principle behind it was relating to not using competition to learn all your skills, but honing them in a training setting. Mainly because in training you can be safer, can repeat things, can have assistance, can use technique and knowledge instead of relying on adrenaline    (can also have social stuff, photos and so on )

Lets face it none of this discussion is going to have any impact on what happens in the competition scene so it's all just people spouting their opinions but equally... the current situation is not really working either, with aff and unaff events cancelling or clashing, the whole thing is kind of broken and that's not good for anyone, grass roots or top elite.  

So it would seem something has to change, and proliferation of unaff opportunities with no structure doesn't appear to be the great idea some thought previously. at least a coordinated approach to a whole-discipline calendar would help to avoid the peaks and troughs of supply and demand (accept that BE effed that up in the past but i don't think anyone is arguing for the BE of old tbh).


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## Ambers Echo (18 June 2022)

Rowreach said:



			Just in from work and catching up, and there are some interesting departures from the original OP that bring us right around to this, if I’m reading you correctly:

Novicey horse and rider combinations shouldn’t be going out competing anywhere, so presumably that covers both UA and A competitions. So that wont beef up entries for BE, it will mean everyone trains at home until they’re able to come out at a higher level, which brings us back to BE starting at the old Novice level, which was financially unsustainable until they introduced grass roots levels.

What exactly do you all want to happen? No opportunity for anyone to compete, ever, and only the elite ever get enough training in to get out at BE?

Some of the comments read as if people want to do their shopping at an expensive independent grocer with restricted opening hours, and are pissed off that others who need to eat find Tesco cheaper and more convenient.

Not all amateur riders are sh*t scared you know. Some of them have realised that in amongst every other aspect of a busy life, going out and having a cracking day out with their horse over less challenging heights is simply bloody great fun, and for those who can still afford it, good luck to them.
		
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100% this. And as well as those just wanting to have fun, it’s inaccurate to assume 50/60cm jumpers can’t possibly be serious about their riding and genuinely thrilled with a clear round or placing. Plus lots of people like a tangible target in sport which a specific challenge or event offers. I do like RF’s idea of training competitions though. Eland do some and I think they are a great idea. Something to work towards is very motivating, hence the popularity of couch too 5K.


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## Tiddlypom (18 June 2022)

Re not riding when you are scared. 

Further to the pics I posted earlier of the long ago RC XC clinic. Horse and I were flying that day. I am more of a dressage rider, so don't do much of this leaving the ground malarky.

After sailing over this spread, I had a rush of blood to the head and decided that we would be ok to go on and jump the considerably higher and wider option beside it, like the braver riders were doing.




As we approached, I thought 'feck it, that's big 😳!', took my leg off and stopping riding forwards to the fence. Horse picked up on my hesitation, agreed with me that it was indeed rather big and that he'd save us and he jammed on the brakes, firing me into the jump. Ouch. 

Pride comes before a fall 🤣.


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## TPO (18 June 2022)

I dont thonk it's about if someone is doing 30cm or 1.3m it's about being competent at whatever level they choose.

There's people who can't ride a trot, let alone canter, a circle in balance or do basic pole exercise while having any control over gait, rhythm and take off etc before you consider riding across country, adaptable position in balance and being able to get a horse to the fence safely.  

If people can ride well on the flat and do the basics then grand if they want to compete at a level suitable to them. I think the issue is there's people with no foundation or basics, are basically bad riders that are negatively affecting the horse, and they are "eventers" doing things above their ability level be that 40cm or 120cm.


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## Ambers Echo (18 June 2022)

I don't think anyone would disagree with that. But this whole digression from the OP (BE's problems) stemmed frrom Patterdale saying many of the problems was riders being 'wetter than they used to be' and having been told by LG that and there was 'no point' just jumping 60 and SM normalising a culture of fear and timidity around riding. Which actually does not apply to the riders you are talking about. If anything the riders you have an issue with (quite rightly) are the LAST ones to be told to  just hold tight and kick on or encouraged to go up the levels rather than stay at 50/60/70.

But this discussion has now morphed into too many confusing directions now. And I think we all probably agree more than we disagree just are coming at the dicussion from totally different angles and are therefore actually talking about slightly different things!

I will be very interested to see what BE do calendar wise next year. I think a lot of people are optimistic about some of the changes so fingers crossed there are some more rational decisions and a less fractured season.


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## Rowreach (18 June 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			100% this. And as well as those just wanting to have fun, it’s inaccurate to assume 50/60cm jumpers can’t possibly be serious about their riding and genuinely thrilled with a clear round or placing. Plus lots of people like a tangible target in sport which a specific challenge or event offers. I do like RF’s idea of training competitions though. Eland do some and I think they are a great idea. Something to work towards is very motivating, hence the popularity of couch too 5K.
		
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Everyone should move to Ireland, we have masses of training competitions and a brilliant hunter trial scene 😂


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## Red-1 (18 June 2022)

Maybe the BE competitions could have an accredited trainer in the collecting rings at all times? To ensure the safety of all? 

Wouldn't bother me. Don't know how it would be paid for though as, if they were going to 'spin' people, they would have to be qualified.


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## RachelFerd (18 June 2022)

Red-1 said:



			Maybe the BE competitions could have an accredited trainer in the collecting rings at all times? To ensure the safety of all?

Wouldn't bother me. Don't know how it would be paid for though as, if they were going to 'spin' people, they would have to be qualified.
		
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Used to be the case when it was a BE80(T) was cut out in spending cuts sadly


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## palo1 (18 June 2022)

MuddyMonster said:



			I ride at 50/60cm and the idea that anyone thinks it is impacting BE is quite surprising to me.

I find it hard to get my head around anyone riding at a higher level is bothered about the riders that are making their way around an unaffiliated 50cm on a Saturday morning for a fun day out - just as wouldn't expect a high level endurance rider to care about my 20km ride or a team GB Trec rider to care about my paltry PTV score.

Riding for me isn't at all about going BE as an end goal. I have zero desire to ever do a BE (or really jump higher than I am currently) so why shouldn't I go out for a morning training, or heaven forbid competing, over a local 50 or 60cm course if I fancy it?

It's not taking money or entries away from BE as I'd never spend it there anyway. If the 50 or 60cm courses didn't exist, that money I spent just wouldn't be going to anyone in the industry - the trainer of the clinics, the clear round or XC event organisers, the local photographers or the family running the burger van.
		
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I think your mindset and experience are different to the things that have b


MuddyMonster said:



			I ride at 50/60cm and the idea that anyone thinks it is impacting BE is quite surprising to me.

I find it hard to get my head around anyone riding at a higher level is bothered about the riders that are making their way around an unaffiliated 50cm on a Saturday morning for a fun day out - just as wouldn't expect a high level endurance rider to care about my 20km ride or a team GB Trec rider to care about my paltry PTV score.

Riding for me isn't at all about going BE as an end goal. I have zero desire to ever do a BE (or really jump higher than I am currently) so why shouldn't I go out for a morning training, or heaven forbid competing, over a local 50 or 60cm course if I fancy it?

It's not taking money or entries away from BE as I'd never spend it there anyway. If the 50 or 60cm courses didn't exist, that money I spent just wouldn't be going to anyone in the industry - the trainer of the clinics, the clear round or XC event organisers, the local photographers or the family running the burger van.
		
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I don't think riders in your situation are having an impact on BE at all and it sounds like you are having a blast doing what you enjoy.   I 'think' it is riders who want BE lite (ie they DO want to do the BE style eventing) that are impacting on a flawed BE system.  I too have no desire (and no financial wherewithal) to do BE but I can see that if I wanted to 'go eventing' then UA would be cheaper and might appeal in some ways at the 'lower' levels - I would perceive that offer as 'easier' and less intimidating and that is the point at which I think there are problems.  I don't think it matters what people do with their horses as long as horse and rider are happy but within a competitive framework where safety and fairness are really important I guess UA and Aff comps need to do better all round.


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## conniegirl (18 June 2022)

Rowreach said:



			Not all amateur riders are sh*t scared you know. Some of them have realised that in amongst every other aspect of a busy life, going out and having a cracking day out with their horse over less challenging heights is simply bloody great fun, and for those who can still afford it, good luck to them
		
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And then there are those like me who have had nasty falls In the past and feel they now have too much to lose to risk a similar heavy fall. 
Since my last nasty fall I’ve had a baby, i can no longer risk the bigger, faster courses as the chance of a life altering injury is so much higher. So I will pootle round the 50cm course where me and my 13.2hh pony are comfortable, we shall have a jolly good time knowing that if I get it wrong it is well within his scope to get me out of trouble and our likelyhood of hitting the deck hard is minimised.

If i didn’t have a baby i would absolutely be out there doing more, probably on a young horse with bags of potential and a lot of dragon in it m, but My daughter must come first for me and I cannot be the mum I want to be if i have a spinal injury.


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## LEC (18 June 2022)

I just think there is a real problem in this country about training vs competing. Most other countries tend to have more emphasis on training. In USA it often goes too far with hand holding by having your trainer there for every phase. 
I also think a lot of people come to the sport with no horsemanship or skills so they learn them on the way often at rhe expense of the horse. 
I am probably an over trainer but experience has taught me it pays off longer term. I stick to the same trainers ans have to suck up what they tell me as sometimes I don’t want to hear it. Sometimes there is a lack of confidence as well because things have been ropey. 
There needs to be more self reflection and listening to people but this isn’t the fault of BE - it’s a cultural thing.


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## anguscat (18 June 2022)

palo1 said:



			It is really sad and as I say, I have nothing to do with eventing these days (though enjoy watching it at times).  Back in the day though, forgive me for dredging up ancient history and the glory days of eventing, on the whole competitive riders didn't want, need or see the point in 'competing' at anything below novice level.  That meant there were enough competitors to make BE 'work' properly for more people imo.

At Riding Schools, jumping tended to start at 2ft (60cm) and on the whole that wouldn't have been seen as anything other than basic riding.   I remember the lowest height at hunter trials and so on being around 75-80cm with loads of keen ponies and children entering.  And sometimes me lol!!

I know that people want something for everyone and that young horses and young/novice riders need to learn but the 'competition for everyone' model just makes every slice of the cake terribly thin.  It is relatively easy for ECs to run lower level unaff comps and give a feeling of success to more people which is lovely but if that is killing off the pathway and desire for more ambitious riding then that seems daft to me.  At some point Unaff events will find they need an overseeing organisation and if BE has died then they will be stuffed too!!

I know bog all about it but in wider terms our culture of 'fear' (possibly through lack of really good, solid instruction) and the 'championship for everyone' in equestrianism seem to me to be genuinely doing a disservice to the kind of solid, courageous, knowledgeable and considered riding skills that eventing should be fostering.  I know we don't need eventing or any other equine discipline and I am absolutely not saying that unaff stuff isn't about 'good' riding but by fragmenting a sport/discipline you necessarily lose quality.   Sort of glad I have no money and therefore cannot dream of eventing as it is all very frustrating!!
		
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Yep…I’m in my 60s. When I was a teenager the lowest class for SJ at my
local shows was 2’9” (83cm) and that often included a proper wall and a treble.


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## GoldenWillow (19 June 2022)

I have followed this thread from the start and found it fascinating in all it's twists and turns. I come from SJ background, affiliated and unaffiliated, but developed an interest, mainly from the sidelines, in eventing when moving to a very eventing based livery yard in 2000. Growing up BSJA, as it was then, horse classes started with Newcomers and BE at Novice, unaffiliated SJ and Hunter Trials you had two classes, novice approx 2'9" and open 3'3" and upwards. Hunter trials ponies jumped the horse Open class. There has been a huge change in many things in this time but reading this thread makes me wonder how the other disciplines are faring and how they have developed.

The thing that struck me moving to the eventing yard was how little "local" events there were and how far they travelled to event. Probably around 2/3 within an hour in a year the rest would be 2hrs+ travelling. Whereas SJ, especially in the summer with the agricultural shows you could compete affiliated pretty much weekly or fortnightly within a 90 mins journey.

But over the years there has been a huge change with more and more BE venues and less BS and BD, although we were never a BD area. I've just checked the affiliated calendars for our area for the next 2 months, within a rough 2hr drive distance.

BS has four shows within a 2 hr drive(one out of our Area), one an agricultural show, others at a competition venue.
BD has two shows, both at a competition venue.
BE has 9.

So BE, in our area at least, is faring better than the others. Our nearest BS training that I could see is a 3 1/2 hr drive away!

Of the four competition venues I know only one is holding either BS or BD events, two of the others used to hold BS regularly but dropped those a few years ago.

So for people who would like to see unaffiliated competitions disappear where would this leave competitors in our area and where has it gone "wrong" for BS and BD that there is so little available.

An observation from attending and competing affiliated and unaffiliated, mainly showjumping, events. The bad riding, horsemanship and management I've seen at unaffiliated events seems mainly to come from ignorance, and a little bit of entitlement, the equivalent I've seen at affiliated events is mainly deliberate and calculated, sickens me and makes me want to walk away from competition and question the ethics of horse "sports".


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## RachelFerd (19 June 2022)

GoldenWillow said:



			I have followed this thread from the start and found it fascinating in all it's twists and turns. I come from SJ background, affiliated and unaffiliated, but developed an interest, mainly from the sidelines, in eventing when moving to a very eventing based livery yard in 2000. Growing up BSJA, as it was then, horse classes started with Newcomers and BE at Novice, unaffiliated SJ and Hunter Trials you had two classes, novice approx 2'9" and open 3'3" and upwards. Hunter trials ponies jumped the horse Open class. There has been a huge change in many things in this time but reading this thread makes me wonder how the other disciplines are faring and how they have developed.

The thing that struck me moving to the eventing yard was how little "local" events there were and how far they travelled to event. Probably around 2/3 within an hour in a year the rest would be 2hrs+ travelling. Whereas SJ, especially in the summer with the agricultural shows you could compete affiliated pretty much weekly or fortnightly within a 90 mins journey.

But over the years there has been a huge change with more and more BE venues and less BS and BD, although we were never a BD area. I've just checked the affiliated calendars for our area for the next 2 months, within a rough 2hr drive distance.

BS has four shows within a 2 hr drive(one out of our Area), one an agricultural show, others at a competition venue.
BD has two shows, both at a competition venue.
BE has 9.

So BE, in our area at least, is faring better than the others. Our nearest BS training that I could see is a 3 1/2 hr drive away!

Of the four competition venues I know only one is holding either BS or BD events, two of the others used to hold BS regularly but dropped those a few years ago.

So for people who would like to see unaffiliated competitions disappear where would this leave competitors in our area and where has it gone "wrong" for BS and BD that there is so little available.

An observation from attending and competing affiliated and unaffiliated, mainly showjumping, events. The bad riding, horsemanship and management I've seen at unaffiliated events seems mainly to come from ignorance, and a little bit of entitlement, the equivalent I've seen at affiliated events is mainly deliberate and calculated, sickens me and makes me want to walk away from competition and question the ethics of horse "sports".
		
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Thoughtful post thank you. On the "what would those who want to get rid of unaffiliated do" - my answer is that I'd put them back under an affiliated umbrella somehow. Unregistered stuff in the morning perhaps, but an affiliated afternoon so that people who are jumping 90+ can have the benefits of qualifying for the national series - if they want to. Same for the dressage. 

I think if I had any influence on the whole thing and could magically make sweeping changes to the systems, I would want to move to collective regional decision making and membership. So you could pay 1 fee and that would let you event, SJ, dressage, PC, Endurance and RC in your region. With regional champs across all disciplines, scheduled so that you could do all sorts and not have to specialise. And eventing shows could all run SJ and DR alongside *if* that made sense for the region.

If you then wanted to compete beyond the region, in international classes or at national championships, you have to join the specific org for the sport you're specialising in.

Scheduling decisions for national champs and international events would lie with national gov bodies. Regional orgs would then develop coordinated calendars for the region that provides the opps needed in a consistent way through the year - tailored to the region's audience. 

So for most people it would be 1 membership, 1 fee, everything affiliated, but with flexibility to run smaller 'unrecorded' classes on the same schedules to meet local demand.


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## palo1 (19 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			Thoughtful post thank you. On the "what would those who want to get rid of unaffiliated do" - my answer is that I'd put them back under an affiliated umbrella somehow. Unregistered stuff in the morning perhaps, but an affiliated afternoon so that people who are jumping 90+ can have the benefits of qualifying for the national series - if they want to. Same for the dressage.

I think if I had any influence on the whole thing and could magically make sweeping changes to the systems, I would want to move to collective regional decision making and membership. So you could pay 1 fee and that would let you event, SJ, dressage, PC, Endurance and RC in your region. With regional champs across all disciplines, scheduled so that you could do all sorts and not have to specialise. And eventing shows could all run SJ and DR alongside *if* that made sense for the region.

If you then wanted to compete beyond the region, in international classes or at national championships, you have to join the specific org for the sport you're specialising in.

Scheduling decisions for national champs and international events would lie with national gov bodies. Regional orgs would then develop coordinated calendars for the region that provides the opps needed in a consistent way through the year - tailored to the region's audience.

So for most people it would be 1 membership, 1 fee, everything affiliated, but with flexibility to run smaller 'unrecorded' classes on the same schedules to meet local demand.
		
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I really like that idea; I think that would make so much of everything more accessible and would enable a pathway for both people who want to develop young horses/novice combinations to move up with the experience of competing as well as allow people who just want a fun day out with their horse to have safe, decent events with facilities and a sense of occasion.  Potentially that would also enable organisations and events to consolidate their offer and invest in infrastructure, marketing etc.


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## Red-1 (19 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			Thoughtful post thank you. On the "what would those who want to get rid of unaffiliated do" - my answer is that I'd put them back under an affiliated umbrella somehow. Unregistered stuff in the morning perhaps, but an affiliated afternoon so that people who are jumping 90+ can have the benefits of qualifying for the national series - if they want to. Same for the dressage. 

I think if I had any influence on the whole thing and could magically make sweeping changes to the systems, I would want to move to collective regional decision making and membership. So you could pay 1 fee and that would let you event, SJ, dressage, PC, Endurance and RC in your region. With regional champs across all disciplines, scheduled so that you could do all sorts and not have to specialise. And eventing shows could all run SJ and DR alongside *if* that made sense for the region.

If you then wanted to compete beyond the region, in international classes or at national championships, you have to join the specific org for the sport you're specialising in.

Scheduling decisions for national champs and international events would lie with national gov bodies. Regional orgs would then develop coordinated calendars for the region that provides the opps needed in a consistent way through the year - tailored to the region's audience. 

So for most people it would be 1 membership, 1 fee, everything affiliated, but with flexibility to run smaller 'unrecorded' classes on the same schedules to meet local demand.
		
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When I started eventing, it was one fee to join the BHS, then you had smaller top up fees for the various disciplines. I have no idea why they changed that. 

Nowadays, the BHS seems mainly for trainers. I was a member for exams and trainer insurance but, when I didn't need it for that, I left and did cheaper third party insurance elsewhere. The BHS isn't really (IMO) for a wide range of horse interests/riders/keepers. 

Surely I was better to keep one set of admin, one set of records/staff/buildings etc? It was also something that made me more likely to do all 3 of dressage SJ and eventing, as it was only a bit more £ to join one more. 

I would prefer that the BHS become more wide-based again. A big shake up. Encompass everyone from riding schools to top eventers. I think it would then also have more political clout. 

Sadly, I do think that the BHS lost contact with the 'normal' riders. 

I haven't had anything to do with exams recently, the most recently I trained anyone for exams was around 2012, I guess, or even a year or two earlier. I did find, then, that it was all to do with whether you did the front of the rug up first or the belly straps (really?) and less to do with weather you could actually deal with horses in all of their glory. A good, practical person, who I would trust to look after my own animals, would probably have failed, whereas someone who had gone to college and knew the exam answer would likely have passed. 

I wonder if they could all come back under one umbrella, BHS, with different disciplines again, if that would help combine people. There could be advantage to attracting unaffiliated shows by a series that was actually accessible to any show centre who wanted to join (as long as they were of a suitable standard, eg collecting ring etc) as opposed to the current affiliated offer who turn down show organisers.  My own local centre does BS shows but was persistently turned down to run BD. Of course they run unaffiliated.


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## GoldenWillow (19 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			Thoughtful post thank you. On the "what would those who want to get rid of unaffiliated do" - my answer is that I'd put them back under an affiliated umbrella somehow. Unregistered stuff in the morning perhaps, but an affiliated afternoon so that people who are jumping 90+ can have the benefits of qualifying for the national series - if they want to. Same for the dressage.

I think if I had any influence on the whole thing and could magically make sweeping changes to the systems, I would want to move to collective regional decision making and membership. So you could pay 1 fee and that would let you event, SJ, dressage, PC, Endurance and RC in your region. With regional champs across all disciplines, scheduled so that you could do all sorts and not have to specialise. And eventing shows could all run SJ and DR alongside *if* that made sense for the region.

If you then wanted to compete beyond the region, in international classes or at national championships, you have to join the specific org for the sport you're specialising in.

Scheduling decisions for national champs and international events would lie with national gov bodies. Regional orgs would then develop coordinated calendars for the region that provides the opps needed in a consistent way through the year - tailored to the region's audience.

So for most people it would be 1 membership, 1 fee, everything affiliated, but with flexibility to run smaller 'unrecorded' classes on the same schedules to meet local demand.
		
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I think one organisation, and importantly one fee, would be a great idea for people who want to compete regularly or semi regularly and with an option of a day ticket for the very occasional competitor. I know I would rather compete BS tracks rather than unaffiliated with their, shall we say idiosyncrasies and variations in quality, and compete under BD list judges. I've not the up to date knowledge to comment on affiliated v. unaffiliated eventing. 

I do think the sticking point would be the cost of the one fee, as well as the impossibility of trying to get all organisations together. I do think what my wander around the schedules of all the disciplines this morning shows is that affiliated is not really working for any, or not in our area. We do not even have a BS committee for our area. I know one competition venue and at least one agricultural show stopped running BS due to the costs involved. At lot of our agricultural shows have stopped running BS and noticed although there was some BD scheduled running alongside BE events it was shown as cancelled.

Something else that struck me with my, admittedly very basic searching for events, training etc., was that I found BS and BD websites much easier to navigate than the BE one.


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## palo1 (19 June 2022)

I guess too you would have to find a way to bring BRC into it?  Riding Club organisation seems good and events and training seem popular too though it's not something I have any experience of!  I think it is a different kind of offer with it's own comps/championships etc and as it seems quite successful, may be reluctant to change.  I can't imagine Endurance wanting to join in much either tbh but that is quite niche.  It would make real sense but would be a tricky job to say the least!!


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## Rowreach (19 June 2022)

palo1 said:



			I guess too you would have to find a way to bring BRC into it?  Riding Club organisation seems good and events and training seem popular too though it's not something I have any experience of!  I think it is a different kind of offer with it's own comps/championships etc and as it seems quite successful, may be reluctant to change.  I can't imagine Endurance wanting to join in much either tbh but that is quite niche.  It would make real sense but would be a tricky job to say the least!!
		
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BRC is a much more successful organisation and format, and at the championship level can be quite serious (although you do still see some questionable riding).

I can't see people agreeing to pay an all in one fee to subsidise other people's fun if they, for example, are only interested in dressage and never want to leave the ground, which is true for many.  Or for those of us where opportunities for competition are extremely limited without a 6 hour round commute, every time.

The reality is, if you want to take part in an elitist, expensive sport, you're gonna have to pay for it.


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## milliepops (19 June 2022)

Getting multiple orgs to work together seems fairly impossible. didn't they all have a bust up years back? 

I do think it would be beneficial to have everything loosely under one umbrella.  I can't imagine it ever happening, but as a thought experiment i like the idea.


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## RachelFerd (19 June 2022)

milliepops said:



			Getting multiple orgs to work together seems fairly impossible. didn't they all have a bust up years back?

I do think it would be beneficial to have everything loosely under one umbrella.  I can't imagine it ever happening, but as a thought experiment i like the idea.
		
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Yep it's definitely pretty unfeasible. But I like asking the question of - if you were to totally redesign the system, start again and build something for the modern horseworld - what would you do?  

Of course, working together is the last thing that any organisation seems capable of doing!!

Ps @Red-1 the original reason for split away from the BHS was because of charities commission I think, who didn't think it was appropriate for BHS as a charity to be running competitive organisations with no charitable objectives. Whereas education can sit under that umbrella.


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## Rowreach (19 June 2022)

It's a while since I was involved in carriage driving in any way, but as with eventing, they need areas of open space with varied terrain and safe, well built obstacles - are they facing the same challenges, and is their organisation and structure working reasonably well?

It's certainly not a cheap sport to be involved in.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (19 June 2022)

Rowreach said:



			It's a while since I was involved in carriage driving in any way, but as with eventing, they need areas of open space with varied terrain and safe, well built obstacles - are they facing the same challenges, and is their organisation and structure working reasonably well?

It's certainly not a cheap sport to be involved in.
		
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Worth asking rara that question x


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## ester (19 June 2022)

As a shoe in for Rara 

I think it's probably been similarly variable in recent years re. organisation management.

There have certainly been similar discussions re. diesel/entry costs for example they are running a 'gateway' class very cheaply at sandringham next week but there have been plenty of comments re. not affording the diesel and realistically it is an expensive sport to do even 'on the cheap' so I would anticipate- certainly at nationals level that the people already involved have a degree of cost of living buffer. (Basically I do stand in the parking field and wonder what the hell jobs are you all doing to be affording all of this 🤣).

They do- because of the accident risk involved- have mandatory assessments, even at the very first local/club level you have to be signed off to be ok to compete and there are further assessments later on.

Levels equivalent to BE you are going to have to travel a long way though to do a season, and that does mean there's no clashes or equivalent unaffiliated clashes.


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## teapot (19 June 2022)

Just seen a Facebook post asking whether wee puddles on waxed surfaces could be counted as a hazard mid dressage test and dealt with there and then, rather than causing a horse to spook, or indeed having to -shock horror- ride through it…

Don’t get that issue on well draining grass! 

Was it Ingird K who said at her 2019 clinic that she actively schools through puddles, or someone else?


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## Squeak (19 June 2022)

Do you think that it would help if the disciplines supported each other a bit more?

Eg you could have bd and/ or bs running before or after or mixed with somehow a BE seeing as they have to have the show jumps and dressage arenas set up anyway.  This would help reduce the costs of showjumps and stewards etc.

If they did this would the disciplines be able to prop each other up a bit more and get more competitors to one show or more profits?

I think there is a fundamental problem with costs at the moment.  Diesel alone will make people think twice about travelling far.

Also... We're praising BE for reacting to low entries so quickly with the introduction of Go BE and the reduction in the PAYG costs BUT if it was for the unaff events competing with them, would they have done it?  So has competition from unaff actually caused BE to assess what they're doing, not have a monopoly and do something they think there was a need for?

We're all talking about BE vs unaff but tbh if BE was doing a good job, would this even be an issue?  I for one would be going BE if it wasn't more expensive and had a better fixtures calendar, others on the thread have said that they're only going unaff because there's better championships.


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## spacefaer (19 June 2022)

I know I harp back to the "good old days" but UA ie events run by the local PC & RC  used to take you up to being confident round a 3'3/6 course, then if you wanted to go further, you'd affiliate and join the Horse Trials group and go Novice. It was a system that worked very well. 
I guess BE have been trying to replicate that with the 80/90 etc. 
Costs have obviously escalated so that individual PCs /RCs can't afford to run ODEs or Hunter trials as they did
I'm assuming BE - being a bottom heavy structure - can't afford to run Nov-Adv without the lower levels subsidising them? 
Regardless of competition expectations from eventing amateurs (as discussed) , something will have to change drastically as BE are losing out to the UA for all the reasons already mentioned. 

I used to be able to go to an affiliated event every single weekend from the beginning of March (starting at Stilemans) through to October (finishing at either Aldon or Tweseldown 1*) without travelling much more than 2 hours every time. We also went eventing mid week too.  I couldn't do that now, regardless of the cost!


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## GoldenWillow (19 June 2022)

Squeak said:



			Do you think that it would help if the disciplines supported each other a bit more?

Eg you could have bd and/ or bs running before or after or mixed with somehow a BE seeing as they have to have the show jumps and dressage arenas set up anyway.  This would help reduce the costs of showjumps and stewards etc.

If they did this would the disciplines be able to prop each other up a bit more and get more competitors to one show or more profits?
		
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When I was looking to see what affiliated events were on in our area there were two BD fixtures on their schedule running alongside a BE fixture but these had cancelled next to them.

One thing I have noticed over the last decade or more in unaffiliated SJ is classes getting smaller. 15 years ago you would have a minimum of 20 in most classes and often over 30. I've noticed over the last 10 years classes have nowhere near that number now, and now most classes seem to struggle to get into double figures. This was also my friend's experience doing unaffiliated dressage this year. Whilst the comp centres and riding clubs obviously find this viable if you add in the extra costs that affiliated events have I can see why they are not run.


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## ester (19 June 2022)

Definitely, shortly before I got F (2005) I used to go out with friends and jumping classes at local/village shows would run 2'3-3'3 (sometimes a smaller ring too) and take all day 30 easily in classes. That tailed off completely 15 would be a lot 10 years after that (not so aware of the situ right now) and many of those shows stopped running, though there does seem to be a bit of a comeback in recent years.

Although I was also one who stopped jumping at local shows and only jumped at centres for a couple of reasons. 
The course building got dire at many of them random half stride double distances etc. 
The ground would be rock hard to fall onto, not too worried about the pony but all of my injury inducing falls had been onto hard ground and we had 3/4 arenas running unaff within 30 mins travel.


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## I'm Dun (19 June 2022)

Rowreach said:



			It's a while since I was involved in carriage driving in any way, but as with eventing, they need areas of open space with varied terrain and safe, well built obstacles - are they facing the same challenges, and is their organisation and structure working reasonably well?

It's certainly not a cheap sport to be involved in.
		
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There's been issues with driving for a long time. They have a very successful low level affiliated indoor series that attracts lots of people and culminates in a big championship. The higher level affiliated outdoor stuff is struggling. The last one I did had 3 entrants in the novice class, probably equivalent of BE90 sort of level.  

People don't make the leap for lots of reasons, and that was before the current financial climate which I cant imagine has helped.

There's been lots of attempts to bridge the gap, but none have worked and they are so poorly advertised they don't get supported. I gave it up as there wasnt a sensible middle ground where I could run outdoors but without being made to stay away for 4 or 5 days at a time in order to do so. And the distances involved were generally enormous. The organisation that runs the higher level doesnt do a brilliant job all considered and is very much an old boys club.

This was all pre covid, so I dont know for certain if anything has changed for the better but I very much doubt it!


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## ester (19 June 2022)

I think it can be quite location specific, between blandings and ashfields you could run plenty at club level on a 1 day basis if you were here. But the indoor season would be further away.


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## shortstuff99 (19 June 2022)

Talking of riding club, I'm running the area qualifier in july at Offchurch (which qualifies you for a long format championships) and the entry is only £60. Still not getting a lot of entries so I'm not sure what competitors are after really! 

Keysoe have set up their own unaffiliated SJ series called KISS which goes from 80-1.30m with prize money and they're getting loads of entries!


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## st_marks (19 June 2022)

LEC said:



			I just think there is a real problem in this country about training vs competing. Most other countries tend to have more emphasis on training. In USA it often goes too far with hand holding by having your trainer there for every phase.
		
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Showing culture is out of control in the States, honestly. There is a lot of talk right now that we are creating competitors and not riders or horsemen because people show relentlessly and never spend time at home training. In my area of the States it is very hard, if not impossible, to get a place at a good yard if you won't compete. Trainers need clients to show because they make far more money at the show collecting training fees for the day and selling horses than they do at home teaching lessons. Some require you show a certain amount of times per month or year, and many better yards pick up and relocate their entire operation to shows that are hours from home for weeks or months at a time. And I see very, very scary riding and unprepared riders at 75cm and 80cm with their trainers right by the side of the ring yelling instructions - last weekend I saw a rider fall at 75cm because he couldn't sit an awkward jump, another fall at 80cm because they couldn't see a distance and the horse hit the brakes, and a near-rotational fall at 80cm because the horse was entirely unsuitable and being ridden poorly.


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## TheHairyOne (20 June 2022)

I've heard the type of rider/competitor i am being ungenerously referred to as 'the middle aged cash cow' for trainers. I like to train. I like to improve. I love to learn. I have zero competitive ambitions other than to have a good ride and to be better than the last time I went out.

Training v's competing...I can train and train and train with the lack of pressure and its still not going to make me any better when I go competing. I need to train myself to compete as nerves (and not just about the actual task at hand but the entire day, getting there, timings etc) have a horrible habit of taking over, which is not fair on my horse. 

Maybe I need to find a different type of coaching to find ways to work around this, I dont know. For me though I have to know that the level I compete at should be 'easy' v's the level we are training at othewise I can not ride with confidence and my (limited) skills fall apart which isnt fair on the horse. 

A perfect sjing comp for me would be a 70 - 100 class. Once i've got going its ok, but the idea of riding to a 100cm as the first fence leaves me feeling cold just thinking about it. 

So I am one of these who will probably never get out of the grass roots part of the sport. I would never have got into it at all without the smaller classes and unaffiliated. 

BE have had my money for a few 80's. They would have had none of it without UA 70's. Who would have had none of that if it hadnt been for the 50-60cm training courses. 

And the feeling of having ridden nicely around a 70 is worth far more to me than piling the pressure on my horse through either ineffective, or worse awful, riding at anything bigger!

So what have they done wrong, maybe its all kinds of small things that have added up. But for a rider like me, I am much more likely to enter something if i can go an ride around the place first schooling, jumping the fences above my class height, getting a bit of familiarity with the venue, especially given the price tag that comes with it. I am also sure I am not the only one who feels like this. 

Im not eventing at all this year though due to the cost involved in getting myself ready for it. Sticking to dressage and SJing as I can train for both of those things at home.


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## Bernster (20 June 2022)

That’s me too Hairyone !


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## Ambers Echo (20 June 2022)

There is space enough in the sport for everyone! HO - there are some venues that do mixed height rounds at XC. Choose your own course within a range of 3 heights. Ie do an 80 course with the option of the odd 70 or 90 fence. Obviously can't fo that SJ but I think it's a good idea x


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## teapot (21 June 2022)

Not Eventing, but no more P2P at Barbury…


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## humblepie (21 June 2022)

teapot said:



			Not Eventing, but no more P2P at Barbury…
		
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Do you know why?


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## teapot (21 June 2022)

humblepie said:



			Do you know why?
		
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https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/barbury-castle-point-to-point-792856


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## ester (21 June 2022)

Stop making us use up our free articles limit 😂. 

Did they run many? I was never particularly aware of them happening when I lived 20 minutes away.


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## spacefaer (21 June 2022)

In a statement released today (21 June), the Barbury Castle Estate said it was “saddened” to confirm that there would be no more meetings, at what has been a racing and po
“We are saddened to announce on behalf of the Barbury Castle Estate that a difficult decision has been taken to cease point-to-point racing at the estate this season and into the foreseeable future,” the statement read. “This decision has been taken in conjunction with the organisers of three race meetings hosted at the estate – the Barbury International, the Vine and Craven and the Tedworth.

“The decision to cease point-to-point racing at Barbury is a result of the current highly challenging economic environment. The course has been operating at a loss for a number of years, which has been compounded by the cancellation of meetings during the Covid pandemic and a significant reduction in sponsorship revenues. Against this backdrop, surging inflation has also substantially raised the costs of maintaining the course and the required multi-year capital investment programme. These factors have resulted in a continuation of point-to-point racing at Barbury becoming no longer viable in the current climate.

“No firm decision has been taken on the long-term future of the point-to-point course.”

Barbury Castle International Horse Trials, which runs from 7 to 10 July this year, is unaffected by this decision.

Molly King, honourable secretary of the Tedworth meeting, told H&H the decision was “very disappointing, but unfortunately with increasing costs it’s something that had to happen”.

“We’re looking at our options for an alternative location for our point-to-point to relocate to – I can say it won’t be Larkhill though as their calendar is already too busy to accommodate more fixtures,” she said.

Racing took place at the Wiltshire estate until 1962, when the land was put into agricultural production. In 1992, the racecourse was reopened and meetings were added, helping make Barbury a popular choice for trainers, owners and spectators. Between 1995 and 2000, the Babury estate staged the only timber race in the UK; the Marlborough Cup.


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## Ambers Echo (22 June 2022)

Waiting anxiously to hear if Stafford is running. They have posted a couple of ‘last chance to enter’ and ‘decision to run today’ posts. In the comments people are trying to enter but can’t - they are assuming there’s a problem with the website. I guess they can’t believe it’s this hard ON PURPOSE!


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## Tiddlypom (22 June 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Waiting anxiously to hear if Stafford is running. They have posted a couple of ‘last chance to enter’ and ‘decision to run today’ posts. In the comments people are trying to enter but can’t - they are assuming there’s a problem with the website. I guess they can’t believe it’s this hard ON PURPOSE!
		
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I was eye rolling at the poster who was put off entering the 100 because of all the well known top pros who are entered at Stafford.

That's a highlight of eventing - warming up alongside team GB members and other international riders. They'll be on younger and less experienced horses, anyway.

I do hope that Stafford runs. The organisers posted that it may be their last year anyway because of the encroachment of HS2.


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## Ambers Echo (22 June 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			I was eye rolling at the poster who was put off entering the 100 because of all the well known top pros who are entered at Stafford.

That's a highlight of eventing - warming up alongside team GB members and other international riders. They'll be on younger and less experienced horses, anyway.

I do hope that Stafford runs.
		
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I know! Bonkers. It was the highlight of Katie’s day when she was in the SJ warm up at same time as Oli Townend at Kelsall x


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## RachelFerd (22 June 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Waiting anxiously to hear if Stafford is running. They have posted a couple of ‘last chance to enter’ and ‘decision to run today’ posts. In the comments people are trying to enter but can’t - they are assuming there’s a problem with the website. I guess they can’t believe it’s this hard ON PURPOSE!
		
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I'm waiting on hearing about Stafford AND Aske. If Aske cancels I'll need to try and get an entry for Buckminster instead. Annoyingly Upton is already full to bursting (midweek - full of pros) so can't use that as my back-up plan. I do need to find some novice runs pre-Gatcombe somehow...


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## RachelFerd (22 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I'm waiting on hearing about Stafford AND Aske. If Aske cancels I'll need to try and get an entry for Buckminster instead. Annoyingly Upton is already full to bursting (midweek - full of pros) so can't use that as my back-up plan. I do need to find some novice runs pre-Gatcombe somehow...
		
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Oh FFS.

Aske is cancelled... So on to a fairly pointless trip to Buckminster to jump a fairly boring track we did last year...


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## ycbm (22 June 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			That's a highlight of eventing - warming up alongside team GB members and other international riders.
		
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Even better when you beat them,  especially when they've blocked the cross country warm up fences holding court telling an audience that the horse that are on is half brother to their Olympic horse 😁  (not a current GB team member,  long ago now).


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## Goldenstar (22 June 2022)

I personally think the lower levels are a good thing .
In the so called good old days unaffiliated courses where frankly often extremely iffy BE gong in at that level has raised standards .
I know there many whose riding and preparation is not at the level it needs to be I particularly worry about the far to fat horse you see at the lower levels .
Some people will never improve no matter want ,some will use the lower levels to look up and strive to be better.
On eventing and elitism yes there is elitism and I do think it worse than it used to be and yes I think it does put some people off .

But the real problem is the cost it’s extremely expensive there’s not other way to look at it .


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## RachelFerd (22 June 2022)

And now Stafford is gone.
And I've emailed Buckminster who say they won't remove the late fees for rerouted entries. Massive facepalm.


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## Squeak (22 June 2022)

Oh that's a real shame about Aske and Stafford.  I do think that more than anything this year it's the costs that are keeping people from eventing.  Diesel alone adds on another 100 minimum to the day.

It will be interesting to see how the unaff's get on entry wise going forward and whether they will start to drop entries too.  I think they've possibly got that bit more of a buffer where they're cheaper anyway.

Late entries are still open for Bengrove and I was impressed to see on instagram they were out watering at 10pm last night so hopefully they should have good ground.


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## RachelFerd (22 June 2022)

Squeak said:



			Oh that's a real shame about Aske and Stafford.  I do think that more than anything this year it's the costs that are keeping people from eventing.  Diesel alone adds on another 100 minimum to the day.

It will be interesting to see how the unaff's get on entry wise going forward and whether they will start to drop entries too.  I think they've possibly got that bit more of a buffer where they're cheaper anyway.

Late entries are still open for Bengrove and I was impressed to see on instagram they were out watering at 10pm last night so hopefully they should have good ground.
		
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This is, I suspect, the end for the one-off/parkland events - the equestrian centres have the buffer because their facilities are permanent. With each cancellation I keep having to drive further away, making it more expensive each time. It's all very well that Bengrove is watering, but it's totally useless for anyone aiming for double clears and qualifying runs (or running above grassroots).

Upton is full and Barbury is full. The international events are largely surviving as pros are bringing lorry-loads of horses. Upton is a beautiful event and always popular, but also useful for all the pros as is mid-week. 

The balance of events is now very heavily to the south of the country - perhaps reflecting where most of the £££ is... but I don't know how you come back from here. Without events you won't have members, and without members you won't have events


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## Gamebird (22 June 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			This is, I suspect, the end for the one-off/parkland events - the equestrian centres have the buffer because their facilities are permanent.
		
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The problem is, as I think Ian Stark referred to last week, that the Askes and Skiptons etc. are the courses you MUST learn to jump (both horse and rider) to progress to Bramham etc. Allerton would be another example. They are a world away from a lot of the permanent (or portable-centric) EC tracks. Remove these from the calendar and you leave a massive educational hole. Which becomes a safety concern.


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## TheMule (22 June 2022)

Gamebird said:



			The problem is, as I think Ian Stark referred to last week, that the Askes and Skiptons etc. are the courses you MUST learn to jump (both horse and rider) to progress to Bramham etc. Allerton would be another example. They are a world away from a lot of the permanent (or portable-centric) EC tracks. Remove these from the calendar and you leave a massive educational hole. Which becomes a safety concern.
		
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Maybe they need to stop awarding FEI classes to the EC venues? I can’t believe how many FEI events there are now- it used to be a much more limited calendar, mostly at the big stately homes.


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## GinaGeo (22 June 2022)

I had dreamed of returning to eventing. But this year pretty much all of the events I aspired to run at have been cancelled, I didn't aspire to jump round the same boring flat courses, made up of portables that get transported round the country week in, week out. We specifically travelled to the one-off interesting Parkland Events. That was why we did BE.  They were tougher, and you were less likely to jump a double clear and qualify for something. But the excitement of rolling into these fabulous venues, and competing alongside the pro's was really special.  And you really found out what you were sat on, even at the lowly BE100s we were doing.

I too fear that this is the end of the "Eventing" that I fell in love with, and I'm almost glad that my young horse wasn't ready for it this year. I've managed to swerve the first hand disappointment. But I do feel dreadfully for those that are trying to educate horses and enjoy it. We put so much into our horses, their education, carefully planning the diary and the prep - that it really does smart.

I don't know what the answer is - I've been out of it for awhile now, but always with an eye for returning. 

But if the events don't run, people will redirect their attention elsewhere, and where do you go from there.


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## RachelFerd (22 June 2022)

TheMule said:



			Maybe they need to stop awarding FEI classes to the EC venues? I can’t believe how many FEI events there are now- it used to be a much more limited calendar, mostly at the big stately homes.
		
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I could be wrong here, but isn't there an FEI preference for all weather surfaces for SJ and DR where possible? So can see why the ECs would have an advantage if that's a criteria being taken into consideration.


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## Goldenstar (22 June 2022)

I think they do prefer a surface , it makes the weather less of an issue and it is all round easier .
There’s cost saving as well as much infrastructure is already in place at a EC.
There’s so much against the park courses now their costs are just so much higher and cancellation is a huge worry , a wet but runnable day causes damage to the park which has to be repaired at their cost .It must be a headache from start to finish .


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## TheHairyOne (22 June 2022)

Rackham's unaffiliated at the beginning of July has gone. Only unaffiliated being run there this year too.


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## Squeak (22 June 2022)

GinaGeo said:



			I too fear that this is the end of the "Eventing" that I fell in love with, and I'm almost glad that my young horse wasn't ready for it this year. I've managed to swerve the first hand disappointment. But I do feel dreadfully for those that are trying to educate horses and enjoy it. We put so much into our horses, their education, carefully planning the diary and the prep - that it really does smart.
		
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Definitely this.  Whatever everyone's reasons for not being able to event this year.  It's very sad to see eventing lose all these venues.  I just hope that they come back next year or that in the future we can get them back.

There are so many people who love and live for eventing and put so much into their horses and training etc.  So many are already devastated to not be able to be running BE due to costs and the others that can run still are having the issues that RF is running into with all the events being cancelled and costs going up even more due to travelling further.

I still think the fundamental issue this year is money and costs at a much higher/ fundamental level than BE can be even vaguely responsible for. 

Side thought that popped into my head - Have people potentially wiped out their financial buffers buying the horse in the first place too with the increase in horse prices?  Especially if they used a loan or credit card to buy it then they've already got extra costs.

Also I don't think Covid has been mentioned very much on this thread - potentially the more challenging parkland events don't have as many horses that have gained the runs and experience over the last couple of years due to covid so we've lost some entries that way too?


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## EventingMum (22 June 2022)

Gamebird said:



			The problem is, as I think Ian Stark referred to last week, that the Askes and Skiptons etc. are the courses you MUST learn to jump (both horse and rider) to progress to Bramham etc. Allerton would be another example. They are a world away from a lot of the permanent (or portable-centric) EC tracks. Remove these from the calendar and you leave a massive educational hole. Which becomes a safety concern.
		
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Totally agree, even Aske's show jumping is a  challenge due to the undulating ground. Back in the day Aske and Witton Castle were well worth travelling to and gave a real test as to whether or not you were really established at a level.


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## ycbm (22 June 2022)

I just feel so relieved that I'm too old to want to do it now,  and got to compete when eventing affiliated was still  really special and an enormous achievement, at places like Sansaw, Storeton, Henbury, Tetton, Lyme, Belton and Osmaston, none of which are running any more and Catton and Weston  (Autumn) event, which are cancelled this year.
.


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## teapot (23 June 2022)

This is def worth one article credit:

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...cross-country-as-safety-work-continues-792947

Piggy added that riders need to take responsibility in producing and educating their horses.

“I think more probably needs to be done in terms of being realistic on what events are ‘proper qualifications’ in terms of standard, and when to move up a level. We don’t need more qualifications, just the right ones that educate horses and riders to prepare them for the next level. We’re obviously losing some events and we need to look at whether it’s down to financial difficulty or a new era of riders just going to places that are easier,” she said.

“Some of the old-fashioned courses maybe don’t get as much support from the riders as they used to, but looking back, many top-level horses got produced and ran various times at a lot of these old-fashioned events.

“I don’t know whether people are getting very protective about records or reputation and so go for easier options. It’s knowing which event we’re preparing for and being realistic about how we qualified and if our horse is ready for this.”


Pippa, who described herself as an “old fart, like Ian”, believes the old long format, with steeplechase and roads and tracks, provided a good education for horse and rider, particularly about riding soft brush and speed, and teaching that there are no quick ways to get horses fit. She believes some riders take short cuts or do not understand the importance of fitness, which is vital for safety.

“People need to learn to ride on different terrains, keeping a horse on its feet and keeping them balanced down hills and through the woods – but they can’t learn that doing arena cross-country schooling or on very flat courses. These courses have a place in the sport, but I think people mustn’t try to think of them as easy routes to get qualified. There mustn’t be an easy route,” she said.

“Some riders are absolutely natural and very good, but as we know, eventing is a risk sport and for the sake of its future, people have got to analyse their rounds.

“There will always be the occasional fall – I’m not saying there aren’t going to be moments where you have to dig deep – but we have to be very aware of the horse’s welfare and wellbeing and the image it creates.”


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## TPO (23 June 2022)

I wonder if equestrian sports/eventing is dropped by the Olympics of it'll go back to long format.

I can't remember as many tired horses (being "encouraged" home) with long format but every chance I'm looking back with Rose tinted specs


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## RachelFerd (23 June 2022)

TPO said:



			I wonder if equestrian sports/eventing is dropped by the Olympics of it'll go back to long format.

I can't remember as many tired horses (being "encouraged" home) with long format but wary chance I'm looking back with Rose tinted specs
		
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I think it might be a bit rose specs, but also a bit because there was more TB blood across the board.


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## LEC (24 June 2022)

TPO said:



			I wonder if equestrian sports/eventing is dropped by the Olympics of it'll go back to long format.

I can't remember as many tired horses (being "encouraged" home) with long format but every chance I'm looking back with Rose tinted specs
		
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No - ask any of the riders who still event now and they hated it. Mary king who arguably had more success in that era wouldn’t go back, again Andrew Hoy is another. It’s not horse friendly and you would not see horses like Vanir Kamira going at 17 yet alone the prices horses at 19. Most retired at 12-13 years old. More horses broke down and tbh it’s why eventing had a poor rep in the sjing. We have a good sport now, we just have some issues. Tbh it’s not the young riders who are the issue! They were amazing at Badminton and Bramham and have never done long format. All MJ horses are around 75% -80% blood which is pretty identical to what Ginny and Mary would have ridden.


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## Lyle (25 June 2022)

teapot said:



			This is def worth one article credit:

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...cross-country-as-safety-work-continues-792947

Piggy added that riders need to take responsibility in producing and educating their horses.

“I think more probably needs to be done in terms of being realistic on what events are ‘proper qualifications’ in terms of standard, and when to move up a level. We don’t need more qualifications, just the right ones that educate horses and riders to prepare them for the next level. We’re obviously losing some events and we need to look at whether it’s down to financial difficulty or a new era of riders just going to places that are easier,” she said.

“Some of the old-fashioned courses maybe don’t get as much support from the riders as they used to, but looking back, many top-level horses got produced and ran various times at a lot of these old-fashioned events.

“I don’t know whether people are getting very protective about records or reputation and so go for easier options. It’s knowing which event we’re preparing for and being realistic about how we qualified and if our horse is ready for this.”


Pippa, who described herself as an “old fart, like Ian”, believes the old long format, with steeplechase and roads and tracks, provided a good education for horse and rider, particularly about riding soft brush and speed, and teaching that there are no quick ways to get horses fit. She believes some riders take short cuts or do not understand the importance of fitness, which is vital for safety.

“People need to learn to ride on different terrains, keeping a horse on its feet and keeping them balanced down hills and through the woods – but they can’t learn that doing arena cross-country schooling or on very flat courses. These courses have a place in the sport, but I think people mustn’t try to think of them as easy routes to get qualified. There mustn’t be an easy route,” she said.

“Some riders are absolutely natural and very good, but as we know, eventing is a risk sport and for the sake of its future, people have got to analyse their rounds.

“There will always be the occasional fall – I’m not saying there aren’t going to be moments where you have to dig deep – but we have to be very aware of the horse’s welfare and wellbeing and the image it creates.”
		
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I've been thinking lately, what if events were given a classification on top, say, with an increased level of difficulty due to terrain or track. In Aus, when you go for your drivers license, you have to have X amount of hours in rain, at night etc. So what if you needed X amount of MERs at courses with a higher difficulty rating? It could be useful too, when selecting courses for moving up level. so a nice flat course which usually builds fairly straightforward might have a difficulty level of 1. Then slightly tougher track a 2, with a tough track and difficult terrain a 3. To move up a level, you have to have proven competency with MERs at those tougher tracks. Might prevent people only picking soft tracks if they want to progress, but also if people are chasing perfect records for sales etc they can choose easier tracks.
Could see more of a change from people wanting an easy season to get qualified to compete at a big event, being encouraged to compete at different venues and over varied tracks.


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## YorkshireLady (27 June 2022)

i think if or when eventing is dropped from olympics then it will then start to really fade!


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## Squeak (27 June 2022)

There was a really interesting thread on this last night on Twitter eventing.  It was looking at it from a slightly different angle of why do professionals who need the higher levels take truckloads of horses to the unaffs.  The answer seemed to be convenience in terms of being able to run at the different levels on the same day coupled which helps save diesel if they were able to take a full lorry of horses instead of just one or two.  Also some of the locations were closer and again helped save diesel.


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## RachelFerd (27 June 2022)

Squeak said:



			There was a really interesting thread on this last night on Twitter eventing.  It was looking at it from a slightly different angle of why do professionals who need the higher levels take truckloads of horses to the unaffs.  The answer seemed to be convenience in terms of being able to run at the different levels on the same day coupled which helps save diesel if they were able to take a full lorry of horses instead of just one or two.  Also some of the locations were closer and again helped save diesel.
		
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I followed most of the thread with interest. None of it very surprising given that the majority of professionals taking horses to unaff events have been at the Cotswold Cup events - all of which are easily accessible from Gloucestershire/Wiltshire areas - which are probably the most populated with professional event riders. They can chop and change entries until the last second, don't get forced to run horses under their own names and don't have any real eligibility rules to follow. This is why I find it so funny that people think unaffiliated is something designed for them as amateur riders - if anything, that series is more suited to the needs of professional riders. If you want regulated non-professional/amateur/restricted sections, you *have* to have an overarching authority that sets and administers the application of those rules. Anyhoo...


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## Michen (10 July 2022)

Just a musing as it's not something I've ever needed to be bothered about but.. there seems to be a perception that unaff does better prize money than BE. Yet the unaff I've been to other than Aston I'm not sure I've ever seen anything other than a rosette? I came 3rd yesterday and got a pretty small, sad frilly. No issue as not in it for the goods but it's always hard to place so nice to have something to remember it by.

At least with BE it's guaranteed/mandated. I think the Cotswold Cup do prize money throughout the series. If you know you may get a chance of being up in the placings you'd be pretty happy to even get £20/£30 towards diesel at the mo!


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## ester (10 July 2022)

There does seem to be an added problem now (following skiptons we don't have enough entries thread having cancelled skipton 1) in that people aren't trusting BE to run as so many have cancelled so where they can are opting to run at unaffiliateds (not necessarily same day but a week before/after) as they know they will definitely run.


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## Michen (10 July 2022)

ester said:



			There does seem to be an added problem now (following skiptons we don't have enough entries thread having cancelled skipton 1) in that people aren't trusting BE to run as so many have cancelled so where they can are opting to run at unaffiliateds (not necessarily same day but a week before/after) as they know they will definitely run.
		
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Hmmm yeh. It's a bit of a mess really isn't it. I got some comments on TE because I intend to travel up north to the AFC at Frickley (3.5 hour drive).. where "local" events could use my entry. Well that's fine but actually I am looking forward to the chance to jump around a track with a bit of a punchy championship feel- they are watering the ground to ensure good going so that get's my vote.

I think events also need to be better at how they advertise. I entered BCA over West Wilts in June because on the schedule on BCA it said they would water if needed. Luckily it rained loads anyway. When they were chasing for entries on their page I tagged them and said you should really advertise what you've said about the ground as it will encourage people to enter despite the current weather. They then removed that bit from the BE page!! So clearly had no intention of doing so.

I chose Offchurch Unaff over Tweseldown BE this weekend because, despite having a bowser that they used to use, they no longer do (I know they work VERY hard aerovating but it still gets hard in the dressage, SJ and the non sandy XC bits).


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## ester (10 July 2022)

I saw someone comment to say there wasn't anything that tweseldown could do but I wasn't sure why.


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## Michen (10 July 2022)

ester said:



			I saw someone comment to say there wasn't anything that tweseldown could do but I wasn't sure why.
		
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I don't really understand it either because they used to water the dressage and sj advertise the bowser. I thought they were limited to what they could do on the XC because of the habitat/protection.

But the dressage and sj go like concrete.


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## Roxylola (10 July 2022)

I'm stuck with only Saturdays free at the moment, I'd like to run at Skipton- it's actually my "home" venue - I grew up there. But they're only running 80 on Sunday. It's a hilly course if I recall to be running a first 90 especially when he's not schooling there yet reliably


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## Tiddlypom (10 July 2022)

Kelsall unaff eventing are now running both days after all at the end of July.

£70 entry fee and decent prize money.

1st = £40 | 2nd = £30 | 3rd = £20 | 4th = £15 | 5th = £10 | 6th – 10th = £5 | Prize money is paid for 1 in 5 starters.

There's a big shout out for all the volunteers that they'll need.


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## LEC (10 July 2022)

I won today at unaff and prizes were not great. I do prefer the cash at BE. This horse has finally turned a corner but been very unreliable xc so hence why it’s been run at unaff. Also I have crap health right now so unaff means I can change the jockey at short notice and it doesn’t matter as have a back up rider. I can’t look at doing BE with this horse because of said crap health and needing to enter in advance. At moment I look for late entries.


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## Squeak (13 July 2022)

Just seen that Calmsden and Chillham have cancelled


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## Michen (13 July 2022)

It's very sad  But not unexpected with current weather. I was going to enter Calmsden but decided against due to weather and I know the ground gets firm there. 

I really think we should go back to spring and autumn eventing!


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## teapot (23 July 2022)

Seen two comments elsewhere which I thought I’d put on here:

1) praise of the be all end all centres that can provide everything - unfair perhaps to start asking/expect the parkland events to offer the same facilities wise (you’re never going to get a surface at posh house event .com  Do people not realise that expecting the perfect event will change the sport for good?

2) The use of lottery funding goes to individuals primarily, not the sport as a whole, ie no national centre/training facilities. Discuss.


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## teapot (27 July 2022)

Saw an event repost to say ballot date in seven days so I had a quick look at entries, they won’t be balloting at this rate 😕


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## ihatework (27 July 2022)

The way I see it is people who are affiliated are voting with their wallets and entering the events they know the standards are maintained. 

It’s competitive between events to attract entries, and those that are sub standard are feeling the pinch.

This month my horse has run at Upton (country house, no permanent equine facilities) and Aston (equine centre). Both produced very good courses that the big names were happy to run their good horses on competitively. Neither struggled for entries.


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## lannerch (27 July 2022)

ihatework said:



			The way I see it is people who are affiliated are voting with their wallets and entering the events they know the standards are maintained.

It’s competitive between events to attract entries, and those that are sub standard are feeling the pinch.

This month my horse has run at Upton (country house, no permanent equine facilities) and Aston (equine centre). Both produced very good courses that the big names were happy to run their good horses on competitively. Neither struggled for entries.
		
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Not sure that’s totally true eg Somerford 1 in the spring usually heavily over subscribed in previous years this year cancelled due to lack of entry’s . Always good ground well presented, and very well positioned by the motorway.

Another example  skipton 1 , a great event ground always good , well prepared lovely course , had to cancel due to lack of entries has struggled skipton 2 but taking the risk and running although currently not quite enough entries to break even.

I think it’s the events with just lower level classes that are really struggling, for entries .


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## ihatework (27 July 2022)

lannerch said:



			Not sure that’s totally true eg Somerford 1 in the spring usually heavily over subscribed in previous years this year cancelled due to lack of entry’s . Always good ground well presented, and very well positioned by the motorway.

Another example  skipton 1 , a great event ground always good , well prepared lovely course , had to cancel due to lack of entries has struggled skipton 2 but taking the risk and running although currently not quite enough entries to break even.

I think it’s the events with just lower level classes that are really struggling, for entries .
		
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I agree that the events running low level stuff are suffering with the unaff competition. Somerford 1 was only running little classes. Plus it clashed with Rockingham which would have been preference for the bigger names.

But for the people that generally just run affiliated, and are jumping bigger tracks, I do think my comment applies.


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## teapot (27 July 2022)

I’m not sure now, given the event I was thinking of in my previous post has everything from 100 to 3*…


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## ihatework (27 July 2022)

7 days away from ballot is quite a long time teapot. Most entries will come in the final 48h


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## teapot (28 July 2022)

ihatework said:



			7 days away from ballot is quite a long time teapot. Most entries will come in the final 48h
		
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That’s true, but will they appear in enough numbers? Event I’m thinking of was so overrun this time last year they were trying to sort an extra day before the ballot date passed!

Just an observation 😊


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## ycbm (28 July 2022)

I don't think we can judge anything from BE entries right now,  I'm seeing voluntary spending crashing all around me.  Fewer cars on the road,  fewer people in the cafes,  spaces in liveries that had waiting lists,  holidays that should be sold out advertising availability.   It's an expensive sport and people haven't got the money after getting the electricity bill.


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## Ambers Echo (28 July 2022)

There is yet another Fb post this morning saying ‘why can’t I enter I’ve been trying for a week’ and multiple replies saying me too/ I can’t either/ I tried for 3 days then gave up/ etc etc.’ The website is SO bad and the entry process for first timers is SO complicated that people who want to event literally can’t actually enter. It’s the most ludicrous own goal. The replies include people wanting a PC class and GOBE classes. What on earth is the point of expanding the offer to attract kids/first time eventers then putting a ruddy great brick wall in front of them thereby losing their entry and thoroughly pissing them off in the process.


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## ihatework (28 July 2022)

Yeah, I don’t think Wellington will be turning many people away. But they should get enough to run. Entries are definitely down so I think you will see some of the international entries going to Burgham or Cornbury in preference


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## RachelFerd (28 July 2022)

ihatework said:



			Yeah, I don’t think Wellington will be turning many people away. But they should get enough to run. Entries are definitely down so I think you will see some of the international entries going to Burgham or Cornbury in preference
		
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I'm ready and waiting to use a super ballot to get into Cornbury....


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## ihatework (28 July 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I'm ready and waiting to use a super ballot to get into Cornbury....
		
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Us too.
We had pencilled in 2* at Wellington but going to now just put in a novice entry without a sticker and if we get a run great and if not, won’t loose any sleep.

That’s the hard reality for events at the moment


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## RachelFerd (28 July 2022)

ihatework said:



			Us too.
We had pencilled in 2* at Wellington but going to now just put in a novice entry without a sticker and if we get a run great and if not, won’t loose any sleep.

That’s the hard reality for events at the moment
		
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I think there's almost now one mainstream professional pathway through the eventing calendar for Novice + - and by their nature, *most* of these are fairly centrally located (but with a few exceptions eg. Burnham Market and Burgham)

However, this isn't a healthy situation for the wider eventing competitor family, who would like to be able to run a whole season with events within a 2/2.5hr radius. And most of those main calendar events don't tend to go below 100 anyway, so aren't really catering for the grassroots audience most of the time.


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## ihatework (28 July 2022)

Yes it does seem to be splitting out that way.


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## SteveGG (28 July 2022)

At the moment in the South East I'm struggling to get a run at 90 either affiliated or unaffiliated.  I don't want to travel more than 2hrs each way and with so many events no longer in the calendar this is difficult. Chilham BE & Rackham Unaff both cancelled  Blindley Heath (taking over from Borde Hill) down to 1 day and organisers desperately wanting to run but need more entries. It does seem to be the lower level events struggling due to cost of living and now possibly the ground as well.
In my view BE is trying and I don't feel that the unaffiliated offer better value. Rackham didn't give a full refund via an admin fee.
AE the problems entering may need looking at but I've never had any problems. It took me less than 5 minutes to enter the other day. I do think it may be linked to getting horses registered. Horse registration is free, so worthwhile doing well in advance


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## Tiddlypom (1 August 2022)

Kelsall got a very good entry for their inaugural unaffiliated ODE over the two days.

The event inc the XC was held at and near the main equestrian buildings, whereas the BE event is site nearly a mile away across the fields. The tenants of the business units there were looking forward to the extra footfall and public awareness that they exist.

The XC looked to be as well built as ever, but being based on the XC schooling field it was a rather convoluted course on a more limited area than the BE course. Dressage was outside on a surface, SJ indoors. 

5 sections @ 70cm
6 sections @ 80cm
5 sections @ 90cm
3 sections @ 100cm

A lot of bang for your buck for a £70 entrance fee and no faff about registering the horse and/or rider.


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## Ambers Echo (1 August 2022)

And I can add that the XC was well built, undulating and challenging with a meaty downhill brush. Kelsall was my first event with Amber and the SJ was on grass up at the top near dresssage and XC and parking. It was fab.

 Returning there with Katie and realising you had to trek down to the EC for the SJ was an unwelcome surprise. 

The unaff was very well organised.


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## Ambers Echo (1 August 2022)

SteveGG re entry: yes once both horse and rider are all set up in the system it’s fine. The whole point is the BE is struggling for entries and needs to attract new people. And indeed are trying to do that with PAYG and GOBE. New people are NOT already set up on the system.

The ‘just register well in advance’ solution is no solution at all to that. It reminds me of a comedy sketch about a 25 page application process starting with the words.. ‘simply….’

We live in an era when people can’t be bothered to click to carry on watching a video they are in the middle of. Last minute pleas for entries are utterly pointless when it takes 3 days to get set up. And many people just give up, never to try again. 

Frankly I think they should scrap horse validation completely for grassroots. What’s the point of it?


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## ycbm (1 August 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Frankly I think they should scrap horse validation completely for grassroots. What’s the point of it?
		
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It started because of people who would buy a more advanced horse and send it out novice with a new name to beat people who should have rightly won the class.  When I first evented you could register the horse in whatever name you liked.  It was changed to passport name only to stop the pothunters. 
.


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## Ambers Echo (1 August 2022)

A strategy that has outlived its usefulness? They could just ban that practice  without the validation bit. Passport name only. Spot checks.


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## ycbm (1 August 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			A strategy that has outlived its usefulness? They could just ban that practice  without the validation bit. Passport name only. Spot checks.
		
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Same as flu jabs,  good idea.  
.


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## lannerch (1 August 2022)

Although I must confess I do like being able to look up a horses details and breeding on the website .


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## RachelFerd (1 August 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			Kelsall got a very good entry for their inaugural unaffiliated ODE over the two days.

The event inc the XC was held at and near the main equestrian buildings, whereas the BE event is site nearly a mile away across the fields. The tenants of the business units there were looking forward to the extra footfall and public awareness that they exist.

The XC looked to be as well built as ever, but being based on the XC schooling field it was a rather convoluted course on a more limited area than the BE course. Dressage was outside on a surface, SJ indoors.

5 sections @ 70cm
6 sections @ 80cm
5 sections @ 90cm
3 sections @ 100cm

A lot of bang for your buck for a £70 entrance fee and no faff about registering the horse and/or rider.
		
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I understand the layout for BE/FEI in the future is also intended to be this way around with the hub of the event by the arenas. They just hadn't managed to make the required course changes in time to be able to do it this spring - hence the insane trip across to the arenas for SJ.

What I saw of the course looked pretty 'portables in a field' in style, but I haven't seen full course pics. Courses were also on the short end with sub 4 minute optimum times...


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## teapot (1 August 2022)

Do we think the media has some role in supporting/promoting BE and wider successes etc too?

I only ask because it’s almost 24hrs on and H&H still haven’t published anything on the fact Team GB won Junior Team Eventing gold, and individual silver, and Young Rider Team Eventing gold, and individual bronze this weekend.


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## LEC (1 August 2022)

My newsfeed has been crammed non stop via Facebook with Euros for eventing.


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## teapot (1 August 2022)

LEC said:



			My newsfeed has been crammed non stop via Facebook with Euros for eventing.
		
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But absolutely nothing from the UK’s leading publication on equine sport 😏


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## LEC (1 August 2022)

teapot said:



			But absolutely nothing from the UK’s leading publication on equine sport 😏
		
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I have seen something but mainly about Tina cooks daughter….


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## hock (1 August 2022)

Orangehorse said:



			I remember a letter to Horse and Hound years ago that said that it is the Also Rans that make the competition possible for the winners, and not to forget the grass roots.
		
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This all day long. 

Competitor numbers are down for all affiliated competition and showing. People now have far more options and are more aware of the options from social media. I grew up desperate to affiliate as soon as possible but now I see people competing unaffiliated and doing well thinking they’ll affiliate soon but it hasn’t got the kudos it once had so they continue at unaffiliated jumping the same courses. BE and to a slightly lesser extent BS and BD are loosing the monopoly they once had to lo a unaffiliated competitions.


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## teapot (2 August 2022)

I’m pleased to see entries have appeared in droves for Blair and Wellington! Both lovely events.

Though the Blair 4*L isn’t exactly bursting, is that par for the course?


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## TPO (2 August 2022)

teapot said:



			I’m pleased to see entries have appeared in droves for Blair and Wellington! Both lovely events.

Though the Blair 4*L isn’t exactly bursting, is that par for the course?
		
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Yeah, it's usually one of the smaller sections

Blair started doing Scottish Champs and now have 90 & 100 sections open to all so everyone in Scotland & beyond wants to go. They've announced that "the hill" is in all the sections so I am wondering if all the horses will be fit enough in the lower classes based on last year.


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## DressageCob (3 August 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I understand the layout for BE/FEI in the future is also intended to be this way around with the hub of the event by the arenas. They just hadn't managed to make the required course changes in time to be able to do it this spring - hence the insane trip across to the arenas for SJ.

What I saw of the course looked pretty 'portables in a field' in style, but I haven't seen full course pics. Courses were also on the short end with sub 4 minute optimum times...
		
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The course definitely wasn't a full course, but they did well with the space they used. There was good use of the hills, sections for a small gallop etc. It was good for spectating, in that you could stand on one mound in the middle and see most of the course. It wasn't as good a course as their BE one, but I wouldn't say it was any worse than some of the local BE events (Bold springs to mind) in terms of feeling like jumps in a field. 

It was interesting to see the volunteer issue coming up, as predicted by some in here. Even partway through day 2 there were still calls for helpers. It goes to show just how many people are needed to make an event run, and probably how unreliable some people can be. I expect they did have people lined up who backed out, because it would take a lot of balls to run an event without having the right number of people lined up to help.


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## Michen (10 August 2022)

Urgh it’s all so frustrating. I’d quite like to run in the unaff on the Sunday the day after the BE as due to be a bit cooler. The unaff event won’t allow a swap even though I have someone who wants to withdraw and whose place I could take. they don’t have a waitlist. 

Yet I’m now on all the USA eventing pages where people sell their entries right up until the day, they just go to the secretary to change the name. And that’s at affiliated level

I do feel we are our own worst enemy sometimes, so much red tape.


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## ihatework (10 August 2022)

I don’t blame Aston for that, I think you are being unfair. - we have a clear entry and refund policy for BE. You accepted it when you made your entry. If everyone chopped and changed their mind all the time it would be a nightmare.

You could withdraw from BE and pay for unaff late entry.


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## Ambers Echo (10 August 2022)

That might just be individual show secretaries being helpful or not… rather than a BE thing. Katie had tonsillitis for the BE at Solihull and her friend rode Dolly - we changed it within less than 48 hours. Unless you can change rider or horse but not both?


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## Michen (10 August 2022)

ihatework said:



			I don’t blame Aston for that, I think you are being unfair. - we have a clear entry and refund policy for BE. You accepted it when you made your entry. If everyone chopped and changed their mind all the time it would be a nightmare.

You could withdraw from BE and pay for unaff late entry.
		
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No, I can’t. It’s nothing to do with the BE. The unaff won’t allow a late entry. Despite having someone who has to withdraw (four days before the event) and me whose happy to take the place or even pay a full entry on top of the one they already have (so they get the money x2 just for the admin of doing a name change!)

So by not doing a name change someone who would really appreciated a refund with a lame horse is unable to get one and someone else whose happy to pay is unable to pay.

I just wonder how other countries manage and we can’t?


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## ihatework (10 August 2022)

You were saying you wanted to swap from the BE to the unaff?? Not going to happen.

Taking the BE out of the equation, Just taking the unaff entry - that’s a venue issue not a BE issue so I don’t get why it’s being put out as a BE issue.


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## Michen (10 August 2022)

ihatework said:



			You were saying you wanted to swap from the BE to the unaff?? Not going to happen.

Taking the BE out of the equation, Just taking the unaff entry - that’s a venue issue not a BE issue so I don’t get why it’s being put out as a BE issue.
		
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no IHW I have not written it clearly. I meant me personally swap- not that Aston should swap my entry! So I withdraw my BE Entry (and absolutely no I would not expect a refund) but place a new entry with the unaff, to replace someone who has to withdraw.

It is not a BE issue. If is the unaff being unwilling to let me enter late despite there being a space and a person who’d love to sell it to me so they can get some money back. Or even don’t refund the other person, just increase the profit of the event by allowing a late entry for a space you definitely have four days prior to the day!


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## ihatework (10 August 2022)

So why is it on ‘what has British Eventing done wrong’ ????

Just give your friend the entry fee and run in her slot if it’s that important to you both (although I agree rather unhelpful of Aston all things considered)


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## Michen (10 August 2022)

ihatework said:



			So why is it on ‘what has British Eventing done wrong’ ????

Just give your friend the entry fee and run in her slot if it’s that important to you both (although I agree rather unhelpful of Aston all things considered)
		
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It was more about eventing in general but I agree I shouldn’t have posted it in this thread, sort of forgot it was about BE specifically as I was more referencing the general difficulties in eventing. Tired, didn’t think 🤣

Yes I could run in her name but that feels dishonest all round and not great if you have an accident etc.


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## Michen (10 August 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			That might just be individual show secretaries being helpful or not… rather than a BE thing. Katie had tonsillitis for the BE at Solihull and her friend rode Dolly - we changed it within less than 48 hours. Unless you can change rider or horse but not both?
		
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Yes totally my fault, I was thinking about the general difficulties in eventing- this situation is not BE related at all. I know the unaff scene is doing better than BE but I’ve still seen plenty of unaff events locally being cancelled and I think events just need to be more accommodating (where they can).


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## Wishfilly (24 August 2022)

A little bit out of date (as I think it was first announced about a week ago), but the second BE event at Launceston has been cancelled due to low numbers. It was due to run this weekend. It is a real shame to lose a BE event in Cornwall as it wasn't that long ago, we didn't have any. However, I do know that the hard ground this summer has meant people have struggled to keep horses fit, and there have also been major traffic problems within the county that I can imagine have put people off travelling over the bank holiday weekend. 

I would assume cost is a factor too, despite the GoBE classes etc as well.

Anyway, the course will now run a hunter trial in September instead. 

I do think it would be a huge shame if the county lost affiliated eventing, as it's a huge trek to get to Bicton for your first time out and it will put a lot of people off- but I also think the calendar in Cornwall/Devon hasn't been well planned this year (despite only 3 venues), which isn't great and I imagine put people off affiliating this year.


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## LEC (24 August 2022)

Wishfilly said:



			A little bit out of date (as I think it was first announced about a week ago), but the second BE event at Launceston has been cancelled due to low numbers. It was due to run this weekend. It is a real shame to lose a BE event in Cornwall as it wasn't that long ago, we didn't have any. However, I do know that the hard ground this summer has meant people have struggled to keep horses fit, and there have also been major traffic problems within the county that I can imagine have put people off travelling over the bank holiday weekend. 

I would assume cost is a factor too, despite the GoBE classes etc as well.

Anyway, the course will now run a hunter trial in September instead. 

I do think it would be a huge shame if the county lost affiliated eventing, as it's a huge trek to get to Bicton for your first time out and it will put a lot of people off- but I also think the calendar in Cornwall/Devon hasn't been well planned this year (despite only 3 venues), which isn't great and I imagine put people off affiliating this year.
		
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Events got cancelled last year due to lack of entries like Dauntsey. 

BE is in the shit financially. So I think there are lots of plans in pipeline


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## Ambers Echo (24 August 2022)

It’s a vicious circle - I joined BE to do Stafford and Cholmondely which were both cancelled. So I regret joining now and next year might join and enter late - just to make  sure events are running first. Which increases the chances that they won’t run…. I’m planning to do Norton Disney in October but that will be my only BE run this year in the end.


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## Wishfilly (24 August 2022)

LEC said:



			Events got cancelled last year due to lack of entries like Dauntsey.

BE is in the shit financially. There will be an announcement soon about Badminton GR qualifying. The new method is a lot better!!
		
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It's just a shame, I think- the first Launceston event had to compress to one day, Port Elliot ran in the end with low numbers (as in I don't think it was financially viable) and now Launceston has cancelled their second event. I'm not blaming anyone as such- although I do think it was silly to have Bicton and Port Elliot running within a week of each other. 

Glad to hear the new GR qualifying system is better, but I don't know of many people down here who go for qualifying, due to the distances involved- but it's still nice for people to have the chance to get to affiliated events without having to travel to the other side of the next county- but obviously full accept they can't run if not supported!


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## LEC (24 August 2022)

Launceston has a new date now - swapped with Bovington


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## thunderpony (28 August 2022)

Kelsall Hill’s September BE cancelled, running unaffiliated instead!


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## Tiddlypom (28 August 2022)

Llanymynech is just running today instead of both Sat and Sun.

Kelsall's statement:-

It is with deep regret that we feel we cannot commit to running our British Eventing Horse Trials 23rd - 25th September.

We are at the point where we have mown the grass ready for putting the cross country course out, all the fences have been repainted and significant ground works completed to facilitate a change in the course which would make the centre the hub.

Tomorrow, we had planned to place the fences and the contractor fees would have started mounting up. With less than 80 entries at this stage for 3 days competition l see no prospect of breaking even and with a large opportunity cost of losing 150 acres of potential silage we cannot take the financial risk of running.

We apologise for any disappointment to members, sponsors and trade stands.
After 16 years of running BE Horse Trials, we never thought that this would be a decision we would have to take.

As requested in April we put the 80’s on at the weekend and unfortunately it hasn’t stimulated enough interest.

There is clearly a need for a fundamental think about why we are at a point that we cannot run with enough BE entries, of course the cost of living is a key concern but the decline in entries has gone on for some time and of course Covid has had a long lasting negative legacy. We hope that BE address the loss of momentum and look forward to 2023’s International with some excitement but a great deal of trepidation.

The good news is that we plan to offer clients the choice to participate in an unaffiliated event instead on the same weekend with heights 70cm, 80cm, 90cm and 100cm, there won’t be a novice or intermediate option.


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## ester (28 August 2022)

It seems unlike others they didn't announce the fact that they were low on entries and would poss cancel before the ballot date if people didn't get entries in. Especially if people were waiting for payday given how it falls.  Though I guess if you are running 2 days or nothing that's a lot of entries to be waiting for.


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## Tiddlypom (28 August 2022)

That's true, only 2 days ago there was just a standard reminder to enter, not a 'we won't run if we don't get enough entries' alert.
_
📣𝗗𝗼𝗻'𝘁 𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗴𝗲𝘁 𝗧𝗼 𝗚𝗲𝘁 𝗬𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗘𝗻𝘁𝗿𝗶𝗲𝘀 𝗜𝗻! 📣 

Have you got your entries in for the JCL Insurance Brokers Kelsall Hill Horse Trials (2)? 

If not, what are you waiting for be quick to avoid disappointment, click the link below to enter...
https://tinyurl.com/4565v8ru 

We look forward to seeing you at the end of September! _


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## Orangehorse (28 August 2022)

Sapey is running one day instead of two.  The organisers have to have a minimum number of entries or they don't cover costs.


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## Orangehorse (28 August 2022)

One more thing that BE has done "wrong" is the rename all the different classes.  Since I am not competing or have any connection to a any competitor, the names of the classes are meaningless.  As a casual observer and reading Horse and Hound reports I don't know what all the different classes are or what level they are.   In my day it was Novice, Intermediate and Advanced.  Simple.  There were various tweaks such as Open, then Pre Novice was introduced.

I now need a little handbook to translate if I really want to know what the different levels are.


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## RachelFerd (28 August 2022)

Orangehorse said:



			One more thing that BE has done "wrong" is the rename all the different classes.  Since I am not competing or have any connection to a any competitor, the names of the classes are meaningless.  As a casual observer and reading Horse and Hound reports I don't know what all the different classes are or what level they are.   In my day it was Novice, Intermediate and Advanced.  Simple.  There were various tweaks such as Open, then Pre Novice was introduced.

I now need a little handbook to translate if I really want to know what the different levels are.
		
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What, renaming them at the height levels is too complicated?? Strangest comment I've read in a while. If you want to know what an 80 is.... The clue is in the name.


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## RachelFerd (28 August 2022)

ester said:



			It seems unlike others they didn't announce the fact that they were low on entries and would poss cancel before the ballot date if people didn't get entries in. Especially if people were waiting for payday given how it falls.  Though I guess if you are running 2 days or nothing that's a lot of entries to be waiting for.
		
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I suspect that the fact that the ground was very firm for their spring event put a lot of people off. I was personally waiting for payday too... 

Now I'm driving to Northumberland or Hull for a replacement novice run - it's an expensive and annoying situation. But the more often events like Kelsall run unaffs, the less people will decide to affiliate, and the problem just gets compounded. It's all a bit shortsighted.


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## ester (28 August 2022)

I did wonder if it meant you had to reroute again.


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## RachelFerd (28 August 2022)

ester said:



			I did wonder if it meant you had to reroute again.
		
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Yip. The amount of extra mileage I've been forced to do this year is ridiculous. I've probably done about £400 extra in fuel costs already.


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## ycbm (28 August 2022)

Orangehorse said:



			One more thing that BE has done "wrong" is the rename all the different classes.  Since I am not competing or have any connection to a any competitor, the names of the classes are meaningless.  As a casual observer and reading Horse and Hound reports I don't know what all the different classes are or what level they are.   In my day it was Novice, Intermediate and Advanced.  Simple.  There were various tweaks such as Open, then Pre Novice was introduced.

I now need a little handbook to translate if I really want to know what the different levels are.
		
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Got to disagree,  sorry.  Pre-Novice was the most meaningless name ever, and now there's an 80, and a 70,  Intro for 90 is senseless too. Novice is very misleading, too when it has jumps at 1m15 and Novice at local shows meant 2ft 9, 90cm..


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## LEC (28 August 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I suspect that the fact that the ground was very firm for their spring event put a lot of people off. I was personally waiting for payday too... 

Now I'm driving to Northumberland or Hull for a replacement novice run - it's an expensive and annoying situation. But the more often events like Kelsall run unaffs, the less people will decide to affiliate, and the problem just gets compounded. It's all a bit shortsighted.
		
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I have been involved with some of the background stuff going on behind the scenes for BE and I think it’s good news for organisers at grassroots.


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## teapot (28 August 2022)

Out of interest, is there a specific cut off for when ballot dates are, ie does it have to be a set period of time before the date of the event?


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## RachelFerd (28 August 2022)

LEC said:



			I have been involved with some of the background stuff going on behind the scenes for BE and I think it’s good news for organisers at grassroots.
		
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I'm pretty sure Helen and Mark are right people for the job. But getting organisers on board is clearly hard, as a lot of clashing short term objectives. And an audience of people who want to have a nice day out cantering around portables in a field to try and bring into the proper sport...


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## ycbm (28 August 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			And an audience of people who want to have a nice day out cantering around portables in a field to try and bring into the proper sport...
		
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Do you realise how elitist you sound there,  Rachel?


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## Dexter (28 August 2022)

ycbm said:



			Got to disagree,  sorry.  Pre-Novice was the most meaningless name ever, and now there's an 80, and a 70,  Intro for 90 is senseless too. Novice is very misleading, too when it has jumps at 1m15 and Novice at local shows meant 2ft 9, 90cm..
		
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Its all the CCI4* stuff that means nothing to the average person


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## Ambers Echo (28 August 2022)

I thought the KELSALL UA track was a lot more interesting and challenging than the BE events at Speetley, Aston le Walls and Norton Disney. 

I know you want to embrace grassroots riders into BE and agree with you that this is the way to go. But the attitude of blaming competitors for failing to enter ‘proper’ events rather than expecting BE to make  their events attractive and their entry processes logical and easy is really not going to help.


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## ycbm (28 August 2022)

Dexter said:



			Its all the CCI4* stuff that means nothing to the average person
		
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Yup agree with you there. 
.


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## RachelFerd (28 August 2022)

ycbm said:



			Do you realise how elitist you sound there,  Rachel?
		
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Perhaps writing in a hurry - but we've got lots of people who are quite happy to have a course of portables with no natural features or terrain and call it cross country. I'd say the same about some of the early season tracks that are so popular at A-le-W - it seems like people are deliberately avoiding riding at places that are testing proper xc riding skills and looking for a more straightforward course. Which, to me, isn't elitist, but does show a big divergence in what people want and need from a day out... And certainly isn't useful prep for anyone who does want to educate horses and prepare them for moving up.


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## RachelFerd (28 August 2022)

Dexter said:



			Its all the CCI4* stuff that means nothing to the average person
		
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But that's not anything to do with BE - that is FEI, so we have to be in international alignment with the naming of those classes.


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## RachelFerd (28 August 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			I thought the KELSALL UA track was a lot more interesting and challenging than the BE events at Speetley, Aston le Walls and Norton Disney.

I know you want to embrace grassroots riders into BE and agree with you that this is the way to go. But the attitude of blaming competitors for failing to enter ‘proper’ events rather than expecting BE to make  their events attractive and their entry processes logical and easy is really not going to help.
		
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Are there full course pics of that track anywhere? Everything I saw made it look just like a slightly extended version of their summer grass arena eventing - pretty standard portables track with the portable brush going downhill. But I may be missing something?!


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## ycbm (28 August 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			Perhaps writing in a hurry - but we've got lots of people who are quite happy to have a course of portables with no natural features or terrain and call it cross country. I'd say the same about some of the early season tracks that are so popular at A-le-W - it seems like people are deliberately avoiding riding at places that are testing proper xc riding skills and looking for a more straightforward course. Which, to me, isn't elitist, but does show a big divergence in what people want and need from a day out... And certainly isn't useful prep for anyone who does want to educate horses and prepare them for moving up.
		
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If BE wants their money it has to cater for what the majority want, not what those who eventually want to get to Advanced need. 
.


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## RachelFerd (28 August 2022)

ycbm said:



			If BE wants their money it has to cater for what the majority want, not what those who eventually want to get to Advanced need.
.
		
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But at what point do you have to say that what the majority want no longer aligns with the ethos of the sport?

Anyway for lots of people there is an appetite for tough xc - there were nearly 200 entries into the new 1* class at Blair this year, which was extremely testing. People with that kind of aim need appropriate events to prep at. That's at 105 level btw, so the top end of grassroots.


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## teapot (28 August 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			But at what point do you have to say that what the majority want no longer aligns with the ethos of the sport?

Anyway for lots of people there is an appetite for tough xc - there were nearly 200 entries into the new 1* class at Blair this year, which was extremely testing. People with that kind of aim need appropriate events to prep at. That's at 105 level btw, so the top end of grassroots.
		
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Is that an appetite for tough xc or an appetite for wearing tails and saying they've competed at an fei event on their social media? (being super cynical here!)

Yes there needs to be prep courses, but I presume qualification doesn't dictate which courses you go round to do so (which if so from my comfy chair seems a recipe for diaster). Which is also a point some of the pros have been making.


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## Ambers Echo (28 August 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			Are there full course pics of that track anywhere? Everything I saw made it look just like a slightly extended version of their summer grass arena eventing - pretty standard portables track with the portable brush going downhill. But I may be missing something?!
		
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I don’t have pics apart from the brush which may be portable but was also big and skinny for 90 and 100. And downhill which you can’t see really from the pic. The course was undulating with a few combinations and the course builder made good use of the terrain.

It’s not as challenging or interesting as - say - Somerford or Frickley - but more so that A le W. IMO anyway. It was a bit shorter but I believe that is temporary as they are re-siting the XC. Elands UA track is often harder than their BE one and just as long. And they are always full despite hard ground and multiple events that feel very samey each year.


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## LEC (28 August 2022)

teapot said:



			Is that an appetite for tough xc or an appetite for wearing tails and saying they've competed at an fei event on their social media? (big super cynical here!)
		
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They mixed in a pony teams competition as well. Another U18 benefit 🙄 so a few went from the SW which is a long old trip


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## ycbm (28 August 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			But at what point do you have to say that what the majority want no longer aligns with the ethos of the sport?
		
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When the ethos of the sport can't finance itself without providing what the majority want.  
.


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## teapot (29 August 2022)

Reason I ask re ballot date is SoE is 12pm tomorrow, and only 130 entries.

ETS - has since doubled and then some, which is great, but still not enough I guess?


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## Bernster (30 August 2022)

Seems odd to pull an event before entries close though, if that’s been happening, as maybe there will be a late surge.  Otherwise, pull the entry date forward if you need to know rough numbers earlier.


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## ester (30 August 2022)

I was sort of surprised that they hadn’t been able to time that the work /spending significant money started to after the ballot date but thought maybe BE control the ballot date?
SOE have put out an urgent call for entries this morning


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## Ambers Echo (30 August 2022)

ester said:



			I was sort of surprised that they hadn’t been able to time that the work /spending significant money started to after the ballot date but thought maybe BE control the ballot date?
SOE have put out an urgent call for entries this morning
		
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which no one who isn’t already a member with a validated horse will be able to respond to….


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## ester (30 August 2022)

I’m not sure I’d expect them to though?


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## Ambers Echo (30 August 2022)

I know a few people who tried to enter Stafford when they put the same sort of ‘decision to run’ post up. They couldn’t enter in time as it takes too long. It’s not the whole story of BE’s problems but it certainly does not help and is a massive own goal.


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## RachelFerd (30 August 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			I know a few people who tried to enter Stafford when they put the same sort of ‘decision to run’ post up. They couldn’t enter in time as it takes too long. It’s not the whole story of BE’s problems but it certainly does not help and is a massive own goal.
		
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SoE only starts at 100 so I doubt there's anyone wanting to enter that isn't already used to the system. 

I personally register all my horses with BE the moment I've bought the horse - that way it is a job done and I don't have to think about it again. Buying season tickets or day passes is then just a very quick job.

Perhaps BE should be doing some off season marketing about making sure that you're registered and set up (and that the process is all free) should you ever be tempted to event in the future. Also a win for them if it means having more people on email contact lists.


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## teapot (30 August 2022)

Bernster said:



			Seems odd to pull an event before entries close though, if that’s been happening, as maybe there will be a late surge.  Otherwise, pull the entry date forward if you need to know rough numbers earlier.
		
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I guess it’s partly having to make the decision because of how much prep work goes in. You don’t want to start spending the money to find only an extra five people enter, especially as SoE has been very soggy in previous years.

366 entries as I post, for an event that’s run over three days.


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## shortstuff99 (30 August 2022)

Talking of entries, as of yesterday Burghley only has 58 runners. Don't think I've ever seen the entries so low 😬


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## teapot (30 August 2022)

shortstuff99 said:



			Talking of entries, as of yesterday Burghley only has 58 runners. Don't think I've ever seen the entries so low 😬
		
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A number of horses that were entered are now going to the Worlds which won’t have helped.


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## RachelFerd (30 August 2022)

teapot said:



			A number of horses that were entered are now going to the Worlds which won’t have helped.
		
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World champs, plus massive hassle of post-Brexit travel?


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## shortstuff99 (30 August 2022)

teapot said:



			A number of horses that were entered are now going to the Worlds which won’t have helped.
		
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No won't have helped, but even in years with champs in before have had more entries.


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## teapot (30 August 2022)

shortstuff99 said:



			No won't have helped, but even in years with champs in before have had more entries.
		
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Only 67 starters in 2019. Lower entries are not uncommon for Burghley. Also:

70 starters in 2018
61 starters in 2017


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## shortstuff99 (30 August 2022)

teapot said:



			Only 67 starters in 2019. Lower entries are not uncommon for Burghley. Also:

70 starters in 2018
61 starters in 2017
		
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I went all those years and it really didnt seem that low on entries 😂


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## Red-1 (30 August 2022)

Oh, I didn't know you could register a horse for free, I decided to register mine as, although he won't be competing this year, I quite like his name and it isn't already taken (I checked before naming him!).

So, I clicked...

To register a horse, I have to access my account. Hmmm, it is 2014 since I was a member so I don't know if I still have an account, but I click through to the relevant page to see if I can retrieve details. The options I have are "I'm already a member" which I'm not currently, or "I'm new to BE" which is also not true.

I have tried to reactivate my account by saying I have lost my password, using the email I used in 2014,m but nothing has arrived. 

I will try harder another day as I am slightly short of time today!


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## RachelFerd (30 August 2022)

Red-1 said:



			Oh, I didn't know you could register a horse for free, I decided to register mine as, although he won't be competing this year, I quite like his name and it isn't already taken (I checked before naming him!).

So, I clicked...

To register a horse, I have to access my account. Hmmm, it is 2014 since I was a member so I don't know if I still have an account, but I click through to the relevant page to see if I can retrieve details. The options I have are "I'm already a member" which I'm not currently, or "I'm new to BE" which is also not true.

I have tried to reactivate my account by saying I have lost my password, using the email I used in 2014,m but nothing has arrived.

I will try harder another day as I am slightly short of time today!
		
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I had this issue with BD which ended up taking months to sort out as I accidently created a duplicate membership which didn't account for the fact I had amassed quite a few nov and ele points the previous decade. 

Definitely something to sort out when there is no time pressure rather than when you're in a panic trying to enter something with a deadline.


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## Dexter (30 August 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I had this issue with BD which ended up taking months to sort out as I accidently created a duplicate membership which didn't account for the fact I had amassed quite a few nov and ele points the previous decade.

Definitely something to sort out when there is no time pressure rather than when you're in a panic trying to enter something with a deadline.
		
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Surely its something BE need to sort out? Theres more than one person who has complained about how diffcult it is, and they know of others who didnt enter as it was too much hassle. In this day and age a simple thing like registering and entering should be quick and easy


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## RachelFerd (30 August 2022)

Dexter said:



			Surely its something BE need to sort out? Theres more than one person who has complained about how diffcult it is, and they know of others who didnt enter as it was too much hassle. In this day and age a simple thing like registering and entering should be quick and easy
		
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If you read my post, you'd see I was talking about BD, not BE. In this case, I ploughed ahead and made a new account and messed it all up. 

The issue is related to moving people from legacy non-GDPR compliant IT systems onto the new ones. If you didn't participate in the original move across it just takes a bit of communication to resolve it and sort out. @Red-1 will be able to quickly resolve by calling head office if she wants to. 

FWIW, I've always found the BE entry system to be relatively painless - but I have been using it for many years.


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## Red-1 (30 August 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			If you read my post, you'd see I was talking about BD, not BE. In this case, I ploughed ahead and made a new account and messed it all up.

The issue is related to moving people from legacy non-GDPR compliant IT systems onto the new ones. If you didn't participate in the original move across it just takes a bit of communication to resolve it and sort out. @Red-1 will be able to quickly resolve by calling head office if she wants to.

FWIW, I've always found the BE entry system to be relatively painless - but I have been using it for many years.
		
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I think it will be a phone call as a password reset hasn't been sent. I haven't wanted to set up a new account as I will never do as well as I did before and would quite like to keep the record I had!


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## Tiddlypom (30 August 2022)

What financial cut do BE take from organisers who are running an event under BE auspices?

Also, how long is a typical grassroots (80cm to 100cm) XC track?


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## RachelFerd (30 August 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			What financial cut do BE take from organisers who are running an event under BE auspices?

Also, how long is a typical grassroots (80cm to 100cm) XC track?
		
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According to this article £5.55 of each entry fee goes to BE which supports the cost of the scorer, stewards, technical advisors, public liability insurance and subsidised ground care equipment.

The allowed length of cross country is -

BE80/90 - between 1600 and 2500m
BE100 - between 1800 and 2800m

(Novice is then between 2400 and 3120)

At Frickley the other week the normal 90 2164m (Optimum Time: 4:49) and the champs track was allowed to be longer than the standard rules at 2920m (Optimum Time: 6:29)

The unaff at Kelsall back in July was 1742m. XC Optimum Time: 3:52


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## Ambers Echo (4 September 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			Definitely something to sort out when there is no time pressure rather than when you're in a panic trying to enter something with a deadline.
		
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RachelFerd said:



			FWIW, I've always found the BE entry system to be relatively painless -.
		
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Ok I'm going to respond to this again - possibly boringly and misguidedly but this will be my last post on this.

So the website..... no people should not be expected to get all their membership sorted in advance. Anyone that does that is already fully committed. And so what if extablished, existing members find entering straightforward. Again those people are already customers. If you want new people to choose BE over unaff you just can't have a system as complex as it is.

I have 2 websites and both were designed with the clear focus on what is your 'call to action' for anyone browsing the site

- raising awareness - clicking through for more info
- signing up for more info or a mailing list?
- Buying something?
- booking onto something?
- joining something?

Once you know what you want people to DO when they look at a site then MAKE IT EASY FOR THEM TO DO IT.

BE equivalent: the event page makes the event look attractive. Tick. There is a big button with the 'call to action' bit  ie enter. Tick.  I press the button: ENTER THIS EVENT.  Hurrah - the website has done what you want it to do...... then cue 3 bloody days of circling round the website to do all the multiple confusing steps required of me. (My Stafford exerience) 

Every time an event FB page posts an urgent call for entries there are people underneath the post asking how or saying they have tried and can't. Those are all lost entries and possibly permanently lost customers. You could not design a less effective website response to that 'Call to Action' if you tried.

I am a strong supporter of BE. I want BE to thrive. I have gone BE myself as has my daughter and regularly volunteer. But I am so done with this sort of 'well it's not that hard if you just...'  type of response. It is so shortsighted.


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## LEC (4 September 2022)

I believe they are trying to tidy up memberships. It’s very convoluted but also a bit of a response with the GO BE and PC to market forces.


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## teapot (4 September 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Ok I'm going to respond to this again - possibly boringly and misguidedly but this will be my last post on this.

So the website..... no people should not be expected to get all their membership sorted in advance. Anyone that does that is already fully committed. And so what if extablished, existing members find entering straightforward. Again those people are already customers. If you want new people to choose BE over unaff you just can't have a system as complex as it is.

I have 2 websites and both were designed with the clear focus on what is your 'call to action' for anyone browsing the site

- raising awareness - clicking through for more info
- signing up for more info or a mailing list?
- Buying something?
- booking onto something?
- joining something?

Once you know what you want people to DO when they look at a site then MAKE IT EASY FOR THEM TO DO IT.

BE equivalent: the event page makes the event look attractive. Tick. There is a big button with the 'call to action' bit  ie enter. Tick.  I press the button: ENTER THIS EVENT.  Hurrah - the website has done what you want it to do...... then cue 3 bloody days of circling round the website to do all the multiple confusing steps required of me. (My Stafford exerience)

Every time an event FB page posts an urgent call for entries there are people underneath the post asking how or saying they have tried and can't. Those are all lost entries and possibly permanently lost customers. You could not design a less effective website response to that 'Call to Action' if you tried.

I am a strong supporter of BE. I want BE to thrive. I have gone BE myself as has my daughter and regularly volunteer. But I am so done with this sort of 'well it's not that hard if you just...'  type of response. It is so shortsighted.
		
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I’m fairly sure there’s marketing research into something about how if it makes more than three or four clicks, people won’t bother. Food for thought.


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## Snowfilly (4 September 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Ok I'm going to respond to this again - possibly boringly and misguidedly but this will be my last post on this.

So the website..... no people should not be expected to get all their membership sorted in advance. Anyone that does that is already fully committed. And so what if extablished, existing members find entering straightforward. Again those people are already customers. If you want new people to choose BE over unaff you just can't have a system as complex as it is.

I have 2 websites and both were designed with the clear focus on what is your 'call to action' for anyone browsing the site

- raising awareness - clicking through for more info
- signing up for more info or a mailing list?
- Buying something?
- booking onto something?
- joining something?

Once you know what you want people to DO when they look at a site then MAKE IT EASY FOR THEM TO DO IT.

BE equivalent: the event page makes the event look attractive. Tick. There is a big button with the 'call to action' bit  ie enter. Tick.  I press the button: ENTER THIS EVENT.  Hurrah - the website has done what you want it to do...... then cue 3 bloody days of circling round the website to do all the multiple confusing steps required of me. (My Stafford exerience)

Every time an event FB page posts an urgent call for entries there are people underneath the post asking how or saying they have tried and can't. Those are all lost entries and possibly permanently lost customers. You could not design a less effective website response to that 'Call to Action' if you tried.

I am a strong supporter of BE. I want BE to thrive. I have gone BE myself as has my daughter and regularly volunteer. But I am so done with this sort of 'well it's not that hard if you just...'  type of response. It is so shortsighted.
		
Click to expand...

A while back, I had an office job which included designing and maintaining online sign ups for various projects. We were routinely told that 4 steps to sign up was the maximum and to aim for 3; we also tested all our various sign up pages by getting random people to test them - parents, partners, the work experience kids, whoever happened to be in the building or near a WHF set up - and if we got complaints about the process from more than about 5%, it got re-designed.

This was a small charity, with expected membership of about 100 people to each project.

If BE are making it that difficult to sign up, they’re doing something very wrong indeed.


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## Ambers Echo (4 September 2022)

Snowfilly said:



			A while back, I had an office job which included designing and maintaining online sign ups for various projects. We were routinely told that 4 steps to sign up was the maximum and to aim for 3; we also tested all our various sign up pages by getting random people to test them - parents, partners, the work experience kids, whoever happened to be in the building or near a WHF set up - and if we got complaints about the process from more than about 5%, it got re-designed.

This was a small charity, with expected membership of about 100 people to each project.

If BE are making it that difficult to sign up, they’re doing something very wrong indeed.
		
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YES! And the most infuriating thing about it is that this is the new expensive website. The designers aren't stupid. It is perfectly obvious to web designers that putting barriers in the way of people joining and entering is going to confuse and frustrate a lot of them. So the only explanation I can think of is arrogance: We can make people jump through hoops because we are BE, and they will do it because we are BE. Well people clearly won't and aren't.


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## honetpot (4 September 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			YES! And the most infuriating thing about it is that this is the new expensive website. The designers aren't stupid. It is perfectly obvious to web designers that putting barriers in the way of people joining and entering is going to confuse and frustrate a lot of them. So the only explanation I can think of is arrogance: We can make people jump through hoops because we are BE, and they will do it because we are BE. Well people clearly won't and aren't.
		
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My husband used to work on large projects for IBM, his job was the interface between the tec people who design all the software and the customer. This should mean the customer got what they needed, which not always, what they wanted,which was usually for it to be cheaper,and what the tec people thought they could cope with. A huge part of any contract is testing and service contracts, when the customer wants something cheaper they usually cut those bits, and try and do it in house, and it ends up a cut and shut.
So I would imagine either what their customer wanted was not fully explained, it wasn't tested, or they just wanted to save money. In a way it would be better with a downloaded form and send it by snail mail, at least everyone over thirty understands that process.


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## teapot (4 September 2022)

Even the home page though is like someone threw up on it


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## Ambers Echo (4 September 2022)

From the home page:

_You and your horse can become members of British Eventing *from just £30 *combined with our *Pay As You Go* option! If you just want to give BE a try, we have *GO BE* where you all you need to do is register and no membership applies._

_Annual memberships start from as little as *£80* and gives you the opportunity to qualify for our National Championships held at iconic venues such as Badminton, Bramham and Gatcombe Park – plus the chance to win your share of *£10,000* in our new grassroots leagues._

This is a load of word salad that does not leave you thinking 'yes I know exactly what I need'. If I were copy editing this my feedback would be:

- From just combined with.... is unclear. What will PAYG cost?
- Too many 'justs' and 'all'  you need to do... You don't make something expensive and complex sound cheap and simple by using 'just' and 'all'. SELL IT rather than pretending it's cheap. And simplify it.
- Why stress the need to register to GO BE. If someone says YES I want to GO BE then make registration automatic as part of entry process
- You can qualify for most things with PAYG so what is the added benefit of annual membership?
- What new grassroots leagues? What can I win? Again the reality will disappoint given how far that 10k is spread. Don't sell something that is not really a selling point.

Why not something like:

_Ride iconic parkland venues ONLY available to BE members.
Access subsidided training at fantastic venues with a range of highly experienced BE coaches.
Qualify for a range of exciting regional and national championships events.
Safeguard the future of our fantastic sport by helping us to continue to fund our tireless work on everything eventing related from course design, to fence safety and horse welfare. _

_There are a range of membership options from those giving the thrill of eventing go for the first time to seasoned eventers, going up the levels and aiming for teams, area festivals and national championships.
(All bold words are links)
*GO BE *-  entry level membership to get you started. Just choose from the many events on our *fixture* list, hit enter and Go BE! (Does not lead to championship qualification or official results)
*PAYG* - the preferred option if you want to do up to 6 BE events over a season. A way to experience the benefits of membership at lower cost if you will only event a few times each year.
*Annual Membersh*_*ip*-_ this becomes better value for those eventing more often and is required for those targeting the prestigious national championships at Badminton, Birghley and Gatcombe Park._

So the Home page is not very good. But at least it has a clear Call To Action Button: Click HERE to Join Today. From there it gets worse: There are then 4 options - the likeliest of which is NEW MEMBER. CLick that and then the site descends into complete farce with this ridiculous page :

https://www.britisheventing.com/join/new-member

First the call to Action appears to be to buy some unexplained stuff called Inspired, Safer or whatever. At first glance they look like handbooks or motivational videos. The call to action is  Click here to Purchase. Wait what? I thought I was joining BE? Scroll past.

What you need....  Rider Membership.

Of which there are 5. Not clear which you need as no clear differentiation between GOBE PAYG and Intro. So click on GOBE and .... WTF is that all about! You get a random bunch of meaningles tables at the bottom of which there is another of those PURCHASE buttons. Purchase WHAT!  It literally looks like they are selling you stuff rather than signing you up. Why are they calling it PURCHASE not JOIN. And why keep inviting you to PURCHASE (or JOIN) before you know what you are joining.

Anway I could carry on but anyone can go to the site and use it from the perspective of someone who knows nothing and find out for themselves. The site is a disaster, an embarrassment. It needs binning in its entirety. It is poorly structured, poorly written and just awful on every page. Plus the structures themselves are overly complicated.

(And THAT really is my last post on this....)


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## myheartinahoofbeat (5 September 2022)

I heard today that BE have even cocked up with Burghley and are looking at running it at Bicton next year as it's a cheaper venue. Have they lost their minds??? Sounds like utter nonsense but they are discussing the pros and cons because it doesn't make any money. How can they even consider changing the venue of the iconic 5* The whole point of Burghley, is....well...it's Burghley!!!!


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## shortstuff99 (5 September 2022)

I didn't think BE ran Burghley?


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## LEC (5 September 2022)

shortstuff99 said:



			I didn't think BE ran Burghley?
		
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They don’t. They get given a small amount of money by both badminton and Burghley though based on profit. The only event BE ‘owned’ was Blenheim but gave that up/sold rights  to The Jockey Club. IMO BE was correct to do this as it’s a conflict of interest to run events as well.


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## teapot (5 September 2022)

myheartinahoofbeat said:



			I heard today that BE have even cocked up with Burghley and are looking at running it at Bicton next year as it's a cheaper venue. Have they lost their minds??? Sounds like utter nonsense but they are discussing the pros and cons because it doesn't make any money. How can they even consider changing the venue of the iconic 5* The whole point of Burghley, is....well...it's Burghley!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Burghley has never made any money.


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## LEC (5 September 2022)

teapot said:



			Burghley has never made any money.
		
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Well it does make some profit or else the trustees of the house wouldn’t allow it to run as they are only interested in sustaining the estate. Just not the levels people think.


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## Orangehorse (6 September 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			From the home page:

_You and your horse can become members of British Eventing *from just £30 *combined with our *Pay As You Go* option! If you just want to give BE a try, we have *GO BE* where you all you need to do is register and no membership applies._

_Annual memberships start from as little as *£80* and gives you the opportunity to qualify for our National Championships held at iconic venues such as Badminton, Bramham and Gatcombe Park – plus the chance to win your share of *£10,000* in our new grassroots leagues._

This is a load of word salad that does not leave you thinking 'yes I know exactly what I need'. If I were copy editing this my feedback would be:

- From just combined with.... is unclear. What will PAYG cost?
- Too many 'justs' and 'all'  you need to do... You don't make something expensive and complex sound cheap and simple by using 'just' and 'all'. SELL IT rather than pretending it's cheap. And simplify it.
- Why stress the need to register to GO BE. If someone says YES I want to GO BE then make registration automatic as part of entry process
- You can qualify for most things with PAYG so what is the added benefit of annual membership?
- What new grassroots leagues? What can I win? Again the reality will disappoint given how far that 10k is spread. Don't sell something that is not really a selling point.

Why not something like:

_Ride iconic parkland venues ONLY available to BE members.
Access subsidided training at fantastic venues with a range of highly experienced BE coaches.
Qualify for a range of exciting regional and national championships events.
Safeguard the future of our fantastic sport by helping us to continue to fund our tireless work on everything eventing related from course design, to fence safety and horse welfare. _

_There are a range of membership options from those giving the thrill of eventing go for the first time to seasoned eventers, going up the levels and aiming for teams, area festivals and national championships.
(All bold words are links)
*GO BE *-  entry level membership to get you started. Just choose from the many events on our *fixture* list, hit enter and Go BE! (Does not lead to championship qualification or official results)
*PAYG* - the preferred option if you want to do up to 6 BE events over a season. A way to experience the benefits of membership at lower cost if you will only event a few times each year.
*Annual Membersh*_*ip*-_ this becomes better value for those eventing more often and is required for those targeting the prestigious national championships at Badminton, Birghley and Gatcombe Park._

So the Home page is not very good. But at least it has a clear Call To Action Button: Click HERE to Join Today. From there it gets worse: There are then 4 options - the likeliest of which is NEW MEMBER. CLick that and then the site descends into complete farce with this ridiculous page :

https://www.britisheventing.com/join/new-member

First the call to Action appears to be to buy some unexplained stuff called Inspired, Safer or whatever. At first glance they look like handbooks or motivational videos. The call to action is  Click here to Purchase. Wait what? I thought I was joining BE? Scroll past.

What you need....  Rider Membership.

Of which there are 5. Not clear which you need as no clear differentiation between GOBE PAYG and Intro. So click on GOBE and .... WTF is that all about! You get a random bunch of meaningles tables at the bottom of which there is another of those PURCHASE buttons. Purchase WHAT!  It literally looks like they are selling you stuff rather than signing you up. Why are they calling it PURCHASE not JOIN. And why keep inviting you to PURCHASE (or JOIN) before you know what you are joining.

Anway I could carry on but anyone can go to the site and use it from the perspective of someone who knows nothing and find out for themselves. The site is a disaster, an embarrassment. It needs binning in its entirety. It is poorly structured, poorly written and just awful on every page. Plus the structures themselves are overly complicated.

(And THAT really is my last post on this....)
		
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You have got the job, Amber.


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## DirectorFury (7 September 2022)

<Disclaimer: I'm too useless to actually do anything BE, so my comment is coming from the perspective of an outsider who works in techland>


Ambers Echo said:



			YES! And the most infuriating thing about it is that this is the new expensive website. The designers aren't stupid. It is perfectly obvious to web designers that putting barriers in the way of people joining and entering is going to confuse and frustrate a lot of them. So the only explanation I can think of is arrogance: We can make people jump through hoops because we are BE, and they will do it because we are BE. Well people clearly won't and aren't.
		
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Rather than arrogance, it's more likely that BE didn't want to shell out for a UX Researcher as the website was horrifically late and over budget. 3 months of UXR wouldn't be cheap, and the results would require changes to the website which would be more ££££. As you've pulled out in your later posts, both the copy editing and the UX Design of the site are very poor. 
I'd say you've missed your calling as a UX Researcher/UX Designer, AE .

I'm generally a bit baffled about how the website was cocked up so badly and how it cost so much; as someone external to BE I can't envision an architecture that would have justified the price. I understand that they'd have been carrying some legacy systems and tech debt but for the several million that it cost these should have been updated and rearchitected. I'd give my right arm to see what their backend systems actually look like because the website design and flow feel like it has been built around the backend, which is a properly arse-backwards way of doing things.

The blame doesn't solely lie with the company contracted to build the website -- they can only work to the requirements they're given and writing good/clear/rational reqs is a difficult and skilled job. One of the many, many, reasons that I loathe hiring external companies is that they're usually stupidly expensive and it takes me longer to articulate the requirements than just doing the work myself. 

IMO it seems (from this thread) that BE has much bigger issues than the website, but given it's the public face of the organisation it's something that will need addressing.


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## mini_b (7 September 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			From the home page:

_You and your horse can become members of British Eventing *from just £30 *combined with our *Pay As You Go* option! If you just want to give BE a try, we have *GO BE* where you all you need to do is register and no membership applies._

_Annual memberships start from as little as *£80* and gives you the opportunity to qualify for our National Championships held at iconic venues such as Badminton, Bramham and Gatcombe Park – plus the chance to win your share of *£10,000* in our new grassroots leagues._

This is a load of word salad that does not leave you thinking 'yes I know exactly what I need'. If I were copy editing this my feedback would be:

- From just combined with.... is unclear. What will PAYG cost?
- Too many 'justs' and 'all'  you need to do... You don't make something expensive and complex sound cheap and simple by using 'just' and 'all'. SELL IT rather than pretending it's cheap. And simplify it.
- Why stress the need to register to GO BE. If someone says YES I want to GO BE then make registration automatic as part of entry process
- You can qualify for most things with PAYG so what is the added benefit of annual membership?
- What new grassroots leagues? What can I win? Again the reality will disappoint given how far that 10k is spread. Don't sell something that is not really a selling point.

Why not something like:

_Ride iconic parkland venues ONLY available to BE members.
Access subsidided training at fantastic venues with a range of highly experienced BE coaches.
Qualify for a range of exciting regional and national championships events.
Safeguard the future of our fantastic sport by helping us to continue to fund our tireless work on everything eventing related from course design, to fence safety and horse welfare. _

_There are a range of membership options from those giving the thrill of eventing go for the first time to seasoned eventers, going up the levels and aiming for teams, area festivals and national championships.
(All bold words are links)
*GO BE *-  entry level membership to get you started. Just choose from the many events on our *fixture* list, hit enter and Go BE! (Does not lead to championship qualification or official results)
*PAYG* - the preferred option if you want to do up to 6 BE events over a season. A way to experience the benefits of membership at lower cost if you will only event a few times each year.
*Annual Membersh*_*ip*-_ this becomes better value for those eventing more often and is required for those targeting the prestigious national championships at Badminton, Birghley and Gatcombe Park._

So the Home page is not very good. But at least it has a clear Call To Action Button: Click HERE to Join Today. From there it gets worse: There are then 4 options - the likeliest of which is NEW MEMBER. CLick that and then the site descends into complete farce with this ridiculous page :

https://www.britisheventing.com/join/new-member

First the call to Action appears to be to buy some unexplained stuff called Inspired, Safer or whatever. At first glance they look like handbooks or motivational videos. The call to action is  Click here to Purchase. Wait what? I thought I was joining BE? Scroll past.

What you need....  Rider Membership.

Of which there are 5. Not clear which you need as no clear differentiation between GOBE PAYG and Intro. So click on GOBE and .... WTF is that all about! You get a random bunch of meaningles tables at the bottom of which there is another of those PURCHASE buttons. Purchase WHAT!  It literally looks like they are selling you stuff rather than signing you up. Why are they calling it PURCHASE not JOIN. And why keep inviting you to PURCHASE (or JOIN) before you know what you are joining.

Anway I could carry on but anyone can go to the site and use it from the perspective of someone who knows nothing and find out for themselves. The site is a disaster, an embarrassment. It needs binning in its entirety. It is poorly structured, poorly written and just awful on every page. Plus the structures themselves are overly complicated.

(And THAT really is my last post on this....)
		
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amber I really think you should email this to BE.


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## LEC (7 September 2022)

DirectorFury said:



			<Disclaimer: I'm too useless to actually do anything BE, so my comment is coming from the perspective of an outsider who works in techland>


Rather than arrogance, it's more likely that BE didn't want to shell out for a UX Researcher as the website was horrifically late and over budget. 3 months of UXR wouldn't be cheap, and the results would require changes to the website which would be more ££££. As you've pulled out in your later posts, both the copy editing and the UX Design of the site are very poor.
I'd say you've missed your calling as a UX Researcher/UX Designer, AE .

I'm generally a bit baffled about how the website was cocked up so badly and how it cost so much; as someone external to BE I can't envision an architecture that would have justified the price. I understand that they'd have been carrying some legacy systems and tech debt but for the several million that it cost these should have been updated and rearchitected. I'd give my right arm to see what their backend systems actually look like because the website design and flow feel like it has been built around the backend, which is a properly arse-backwards way of doing things.

The blame doesn't solely lie with the company contracted to build the website -- they can only work to the requirements they're given and writing good/clear/rational reqs is a difficult and skilled job. One of the many, many, reasons that I loathe hiring external companies is that they're usually stupidly expensive and it takes me longer to articulate the requirements than just doing the work myself.

IMO it seems (from this thread) that BE has much bigger issues than the website, but given it's the public face of the organisation it's something that will need addressing.
		
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The big issue (I attended the EGM) was that a website with results and transaction was simple. The big problem is they also wanted it do do all their scoring etc which is where it’s completely fallen down and Event Scores does it. I also don’t know how it’s cost so much or been such a calamity especially using Salesforce. If you fancy boring yourself their are regular reports and IT updates on the website.


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## Ambers Echo (7 September 2022)

mini_b said:



			amber I really think you should email this to BE.
		
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I am sure they know this thread is here if they are interested!

The arrogance comment was actually more about the structure - making people validate their horses in advance, upload info, go through multiple steps to join and enter. I once ran an NHS department and it was the same - endless hoops to jump through. And a rejection letter if you failed. I binned all that to have a totally streamlined pathway from referral to first contact. I felt it was arrogant (if they want an appt they'll do it), and it was clearly also discriminatory as it was a greater barrier to chaotic people, illiterate people, disabled people, non english speakers etc etc.

Re the actual layout of the site, I think DF is right. It was lack of proper test-site testing and feedback (I assume UX = User Experience?) They didn't (they CAN'T have) actually got anyone to test the site from the user perspective. And people who build websites are not necessarily any good at writing them so maybe they also did not bother empploying a skilled copy editor either. So the site 'works' and does all the things BE asked it to do. But it has still ended up crap because the most important parts were just not thought about.


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## Alibear (7 September 2022)

If the system uses Salesforce in any part, that explains the cost.  Next, they'll move to SAP!


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## j1ffy (7 September 2022)

Alibear said:



			If the system uses Salesforce in any part, that explains the cost.  Next, they'll move to SAP!
		
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Sorry but this almost made me spit out my tea laughing... That would make the current costs look miniscule!

Another who has worked on and led many big tech transformations here 🙋🏼‍♀️ although I'm no techie. I'm not a BE member but I've had similar frustrations with other horse sites. There's no excuse for such a terrible user experience these days - if they paid an external company that much, they should have had the right advice. The whole thing smacks of development by committee, from the copy to the complicated membership routes and up-front information required. A small team with simple sign-off and governance, guided by a decent UX researcher / service designer, would have been far more successful.

Also I can't imagine how something like Salesforce could be customised to do entries and can imagine this adding huge amounts of upfront costs as well as ensuring it's very expensive to maintain and upgrade....again evidence that the advice provided was terrible.

Is a membership organisation such as BE subject to similar procurement rules and constraints as public sector organisations? I very much doubt it, and therefore wonder whether they could have asked the membership whether anyone could have provided some voluntary best-practice tech and tech procurement advice and played a non-exec director role on the programme board. Just this thread has thrown up a few experienced people...


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## RachelFerd (7 September 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			I am sure they know this thread is here if they are interested!

The arrogance comment was actually more about the structure - making people validate their horses in advance, upload info, go through multiple steps to join and enter. I once ran an NHS department and it was the same - endless hoops to jump through. And a rejection letter if you failed. I binned all that to have a totally streamlined pathway from referral to first contact. I felt it was arrogant (if they want an appt they'll do it), and it was clearly also discriminatory as it was a greater barrier to chaotic people, illiterate people, disabled people, non english speakers etc etc.

Re the actual layout of the site, I think DF is right. It was lack of proper test-site testing and feedback (I assume UX = User Experience?) They didn't (they CAN'T have) actually got anyone to test the site from the user perspective. And people who build websites are not necessarily any good at writing them so maybe they also did not bother empploying a skilled copy editor either. So the site 'works' and does all the things BE asked it to do. But it has still ended up crap because the most important parts were just not thought about.
		
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I don't think horse validation in advance is an arrogant thing - you would do it for any other affiliated discipline too. It's pretty normal, is it not? My passport scans have been verified by BD and BS before competing. Now that I occasionally do a renewal, it goes through very quickly, because they've previously been verified. The BE website is much worse than either of those, which is fair. And the enforced entries through their system thing is unnecessary - however, the worst entry system I have ever used was Equine Affairs for the unaff stuff running at Houghton - it was truly horrendous and required me making multiple separate entries for one horse with a booking fee added to each one!

It is easy to go round in circles on how expensive and not very good the website is, but it isn't the product of the current leadership of BE - it is an ugly inheritance. And these things are so unbelievably expensive to amend when you've gone too far down one path... but amending the copywriting would be a big help. However, I totally get why it has ended up so wildly complicated this year,  because the membership options have been iterated multiple times based on the financial climate we've been in - its no surprise it has ended up complicated, but it is a bit of a situation of not being able to do right for doing wrong. 

As a regular user of the site though, it does take me less than 3 minutes to make an entry. I timed myself yesterday. So, once over the horrible peak effort of getting set up, it really isn't very difficult to use it.


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## DirectorFury (7 September 2022)

LEC said:



			The big issue (I attended the EGM) was that a website with results and transaction was simple. The big problem is they also wanted it do do all their scoring etc which is where it’s completely fallen down and Event Scores does it. I also don’t know how it’s cost so much or been such a calamity especially using Salesforce. If you fancy boring yourself their are regular reports and IT updates on the website.
		
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Well in one word you've just explained to me why it was so expensive and also why it's so crap . I do not have good things to say about Salesforce!
Thanks for the prod in the direction of the IT reports, I'll have a look at them later.

Weird how the scoring was the thing that broke it all - from a microservices perspective it should be trivial to integrate all the components so adding or removing something shouldn't break things.



RachelFerd said:



			[...]And these things are so unbelievably expensive to amend when you've gone too far down one path[...]
		
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I'm going to say something that's probably unpopular with fellow tech workers, but they're only really expensive because outsourcing companies royally take the p1ss with their pricing, especially if they know the customer is non-technical or doesn't have a tech-literate person involved in the process. They could've hired (on 24-month/fixed-term contracts) an entire in-house full-stack dev team, plus a PM and UXR, for less than the cost of the website. I'm guessing BE are now locked into an extortionate service contract for the website too. And as it's a cloud (urgh) solution they're going to have massive ongoing costs there as well and there's just no need for it. It's wasteful.

When they come to redo the website it would be cheaper to throw the entire thing in the bin and start again from scratch, and this time get help from people who know or work in the industry.


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## Ambers Echo (7 September 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			I don't think horse validation in advance is an arrogant thing - you would do it for any other affiliated discipline too. It's pretty normal, is it not? My passport scans have been verified by BD and BS before competing.
		
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Ok maybe it isn't arrogance. But I am a big believer in asking why? Why is that needed? What does it prevent?
Presumably, passport validation aims to prevent you competing on a different horse and getting a decent record on the wrong horse? But there is no rider validation? So what's to stop anyone dishonest from getting a pro to make their extremely average but validated cob to look like a Badminton grassroots contender but pretenting he's ridden by someone average. Or gettign a pro to get you your MERS for you. There is just an assumption that this is needed when I am not sure it really it. I have never ever had anyone check I am riding the right horse. And eventing is a small world - I am fairly sure anyone on the wrong horse would be outed swiftly. A lifetime ban for that would probably be enough to stop it ever happening. Unless I am very naive. Willing to be educated in why is it necessary if I am missing something.

Maybe once you are on teams then that is the point that checks come in? Or you take your passport to the secretaroes tent to collect winnings?

But also I BSed Lottie on impulse and did have to validate her but I could do that AFTER entering. The entry went in and I added her BS number the next day. What is so short sighted of BE is not letting people enter in the first place. If people are there online trying to enter, for heaven's sake let them! Insurance does that all the time too - coverage starts immediately and then you have to send additonal info over later.


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## RachelFerd (7 September 2022)

DirectorFury said:



			I'm going to say something that's probably unpopular with fellow tech workers, but they're only really expensive because outsourcing companies royally take the p1ss with their pricing, especially if they know the customer is non-technical or doesn't have a tech-literate person involved in the process. They could've hired (on 24-month/fixed-term contracts) an entire in-house full-stack dev team, plus a PM and UXR, for less than the cost of the website. I'm guessing BE are now locked into an extortionate service contract for the website too. And as it's a cloud (urgh) solution they're going to have massive ongoing costs there as well and there's just no need for it. It's wasteful.

When they come to redo the website it would be cheaper to throw the entire thing in the bin and start again from scratch, and this time get help from people who know or work in the industry.
		
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Totally agree - and having run some major IT and website transformation projects while working in the third sector... there are some absolute p*ss takes going on out there. And very talented people who could do the job themselves or in a small team at an infinitely smaller cost. My NHOH is a video games developer and and builds unbelievably complicated things that enable online multiplayer functionality for computer games running across 5 different platforms. He does this himself as the sole programmer on the project... but you could outsource it and literally spend millions.




Ambers Echo said:



			Ok maybe it isn't arrogance. But I am a big believer in asking why? Why is that needed? What does it prevent?
Presumably, passport validation aims to prevent you competing on a different horse and getting a decent record on the wrong horse? But there is no rider validation? So what's to stop anyone dishonest from getting a pro to make their extremely average but validated cob to look like a Badminton grassroots contender but pretenting he's ridden by someone average. Or gettign a pro to get you your MERS for you. There is just an assumption that this is needed when I am not sure it really it. I have never ever had anyone check I am riding the right horse. And eventing is a small world - I am fairly sure anyone on the wrong horse would be outed swiftly. A lifetime ban for that would probably be enough to stop it ever happening. Unless I am very naive. Willing to be educated in why is it necessary if I am missing something.

Maybe once you are on teams then that is the point that checks come in? Or you take your passport to the secretaroes tent to collect winnings?

But also I BSed Lottie on impulse and did have to validate her but I could do that AFTER entering. The entry went in and I added her BS number the next day. What is so short sighted of BE is not letting people enter in the first place. If people are there online trying to enter, for heaven's sake let them! Insurance does that all the time too - coverage starts immediately and then you have to send additonal info over later.
		
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So a few responses to this

1/ yes it prevents people putting a good record onto a horse when it isn't the right horse - chancers have done this before in the past, it does genuinely happen. And when we're talking about selling horses for for £20/£30k as 'talented youngsters' there is every bit of reason to try and limit this type of fraudulent activity.
2/ fortunately eventing is a small enough world that any decent pro would be recognised as riding under an incorrect name, hence rider validation probably not needed
3/ at FEI level every horse is microchip scanned every time. I have also had microchips scanned at a 'normal' BE event and at a BS event. At BS particularly there is also a bit of incentive to ride the wrong horse and pick up fair amounts of prize money in lower level classes than the horse should be competing in. 
4/ agree, it would make sense to validate horses after entering - removing all barriers to getting entries IN in the first place is much needed
5/ there is currently a bit more 'intelligence' in the entry system to prevent unqualified horses/riders entering things they don't have the MERs for - the onus for doing this could be placed more onto riders now that the qualification and eligibility online checker is out there in the public domain - but would people use it?


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## Ambers Echo (7 September 2022)

Fair enough, I did not realise it was a common form of fraud. But what would stop me validating 'Bay Useless Jumper' and actually riding Lottie?  That could only be picked up if they scan microchip/check passport markings. In which case the validation is unecessary as you'd cathc the person via the scan/passport? 

Am I missing something?


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## RachelFerd (7 September 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Fair enough, I did not realise it was a common form of fraud. But what would stop me validating 'Bay Useless Jumper' and actually riding Lottie?  That could only be picked up if they scan microchip/check passport markings. In which case the validation is unecessary as you'd cathc the person via the scan/passport?

Am I missing something?
		
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You need an existing record to attach the results to though, right? Prevent duplicate records, and also collect useful data on things like breeding (although I think they could do a *much* better job on that front than currently happens).

In my idealistic little world, this would be where having an overarching record for each horse, which all results from different comps fed into, would cut out lots of hassle and wasteful duplication.


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## LEC (7 September 2022)

Ambers Echo said:



			Fair enough, I did not realise it was a common form of fraud. But what would stop me validating 'Bay Useless Jumper' and actually riding Lottie?  That could only be picked up if they scan microchip/check passport markings. In which case the validation is unecessary as you'd cathc the person via the scan/passport?

Am I missing something?
		
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I know before it was done a horse who had a terrible record - it was renamed and started again! Luckily this has all stopped with strict rules about not changing passport names. I tried to drop part of my horses passport name and it was a hard no. Only name know changed was a Friends who had word bitch in it and was allowed another name for competing!


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## Ambers Echo (7 September 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			You need an existing record to attach the results to though, right? Prevent duplicate records, and also collect useful data on things like breeding (although I think they could do a *much* better job on that front than currently happens).

In my idealistic little world, this would be where having an overarching record for each horse, which all results from different comps fed into, would cut out lots of hassle and wasteful duplication.
		
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In the fraud you outlined, dodgy dealer does not validate any horse but rides an established horse under the name of the young horse he is selling so young horse gets good record and can sell for 20-30K.
In my scenario, dealer/rider does exactly the same  but validates the youngster first. 

In both scenarios the dealer gets away with this unless someone actually checks at the event that he is riding the horse named on the entry. If that happens the person is caught regardless of validation. So if you check at the event you don't need to validate to prevent this. And if you don't check, validation does not prevent this. 

But it sounds like validation does more than that as I don't know what you mean by duplicate records etc. Maybe something that applies higher up?


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## Ambers Echo (7 September 2022)

Maybe the 2nd scenario opens the person up to more criminal liability as this is clearly fraud rather than 'oops I brought a different horse today because horse A is a bit off'.
So maybe a good way forward is to at least validate later so entires are not needlessly lost as poeple wait x


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## RachelFerd (14 September 2022)

Message from Helen received via email and posted on the website - thought this was interesting to share. Hinting at some interesting developments for this winter and next year. Clearly demonstrates that plenty of listening is going on.

* letting organisers use other entry systems if they want to
* a new winter comp aimed at potential new members (details tbc)
* new partnership working with BRC (to add to the PC partnership)
* bringing some new grassroots events into the calendar in areas that need them
* changing calendar process so that a 'calender fee' is paid by organisers to try and prevent the cancellations we've seen (not sure how this will work in practice, but interested to see...)

--------------------------------------


As this season draws to a close, I very much want to share with you the positive steps we have made this year to ensure a bigger and brighter future for the sport which we all care so passionately about.

Before I do that however, I would also like to acknowledge that I’m well aware of the challenges ahead for our membership with the economic climate that we find ourselves in. With this in mind we have been working extensively to restructure the internal administration of the office and operational costs of the sport. As a result I’m very much hoping to keep membership fees at the same levels for 2023 as they are currently.

Also, we have made some changes to the agreement between ourselves and our event organisers which we trust will reduce the number of fixtures cancelling next year and the subsequent frustrations so many of you will have felt during the current season as a result.

There are so many positives to take from the past twelve months and I very much wanted to highlight them to you as it is sometimes easy to forget how far we have come with a relatively short period of time. Below I have run through some of the highlights for you as follows:

*Growing the family*
We are delighted to say that our membership has been on an upward trajectory since January and is looking set to continue doing so. Whilst it is impossible to know the impact of the current economic climate, it definitely bodes well that those wishing to event are choosing to do so with British Eventing.

We are constantly striving to provide more opportunities for riders to compete with us and we currently have a number of membership growth initiatives underway. You may have seen some of these initiatives being promoted on our social media channels, but others you may not have seen yet are the result of us working with our partner bodies within the BEF.

We are working collaboratively with the Pony Club, as a fellow member body of British Equestrian, to encourage the progression of younger riders into our sport. By permitting DCs to sign off MER’s for pony club members wishing to join and compete with BE up to BE100 we have removed a perceived barrier to entry, and we are already seeing a growth in younger members. We have also introduced Pony Club classes within some of the events this summer so that riders can experience competing with British Eventing prior to joining and we will be offering a Pony Club membership discount for anyone who has not been a member before. It will allow their members to step into Eventing with all the health and safety, governance, insurance and safeguarding frameworks that only a National Governing Body can offer.

A similar partnership is currently being formulated with the BHS and British Riding Clubs, so that their members can also be assured of a safe, supported and structured entry into the sport. There is a strong desire from within the British Equestrian member bodies to work together collaboratively and we are all committed to adding benefits, such as these, to our members.

The launch of GO BE earlier this year was incredibly well received – an initiative which allows competitors to run with unpublished results and without the need of a membership fee being paid. Whilst Go BE combinations can’t qualify for championships or appear on league tables, it does give the opportunity to run young horses without the pressure of having results published and also gives prospective members the chance to try BE without the cost of a national membership. GO BE classes were introduced as the result of listening to both current and prospective member’s needs and the aim is for them to continue growing in 2023.

Another overwhelming request that we have had this year is for us to lower the age limit of riders from the current 12-years-old. Having discussed this at length, we have decided to drop the age requirement to 10-years-old for those wishing to compete in the BE Winter competitions and/or wishing to participate in The Howden Way training.

*Training for the future*
Making quality training available, to all of our members, was something I felt pivotal to do as a national governing body and I’m delighted to say that we are now in a position to deliver just that. Via David Howden’s incredibly generous sponsorship, we have been able to develop a national training framework which will sit under the title banner of The Howden Way.

A network of regional academies, the first of which we should see launch later this autumn, will offer to subsidised training to all members no matter of their age or level of ability. Further to this, we have also been able to launch The Howden Way Talent Academy and The Howden Way Young Horse Academy. Training is already underway in the latter two categories, with younger members already having had the opportunity to compete in Millstreet, Ireland recently. An inaugural Young Horse Development Day has also already taken place at Aston-le-Walls with another due to take place later this month.

This is such exciting news for the sport and I look forward to seeing it roll out across the country later this year. I am unable to convey the importance I place on training, and I look forward to seeing as many of our members as possible take advantage of what will be on offer to them.

(continued on next post as too long....)


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## RachelFerd (14 September 2022)

*A calendar to inspire*
This year saw the inaugural NAF Five Star BE80 Championships at Bramham International. The feedback from competitors taking part was extremely positive and this now sees the sport have Summer Championships taking place at some of the most prestigious venues in the country across all levels – Bramham for BE80, Badminton for BE90 and BE100 and the Festival of British Eventing at Gatcombe for the Novice to Advanced levels.

As part of our desire to offer a range of goals to inspire riders at every level, we also adopted the Novice Masters into the competition framework this season following a successful trial last year. This was also supplemented with the introduction of an Intermediate Masters to give those competing at Novice and Intermediate some additional opportunities to compete and produce their horses.

Despite the heatwave we endured this summer, we saw some superb sport take place as a result of the exceptionally hard work of the event organisers, venue owners and their support teams. Their working on preparing the grounds and introducing additional cooling facilities deserve applauding and I can’t thank them enough. We are incredibly lucky to be the only Olympic sport that takes place on such historic and notable parkland and there isn’t a day when I am at an event that I don’t feel overwhelmed with the opportunities that we have available to us as a sport.

Heading into Winter, The Arena Eventing Championships will continue this year with it being open to non-members at the qualifying stages. Joining the Winter competition structure for this coming season will be the introduction of a new series, which will culminate in a Championships in May and will also be open for non-members at the qualifying legs.

More information on the new series will be announced shortly but what I can say at this stage is that it has been designed to provide competitors with an entry level pathway into the sport. The new series comes is the result of a volume of feedback highlighting that there was a requirement for this kind of opportunity, and we look forward to announcing it shortly and seeing it come to fruition.

*Performance recognised*
This year has also seen the introduction of Grassroots Leagues, powered by Equiratings, with a £10,000 prize fund behind them. These have been extremely well received, with performance prizes having been being paid out bi-monthly and the overall winners to be announced shortly as the season draws to a close. There are also national leagues, as well as the Event Horse Owners League with a £20,000 prize fund behind it for those competing at 4* level and above on home soil.

*Working for you*
Having listened to our members and what they would like to see from us, it has become clear that the landscape of the sport has changed. With this in mind, and as a result of the number of events that have cancelled this year, we have changed the way that fixtures are booked into the calendar. We will now be asking event organisers to commit to the date with a calendar fee, as well as looking to welcome some new grassroots events into the calendar within regions where there is a need for this. In doing so, it will provide our membership with greater opportunities as well as providing greater certainty that events appearing in the BE Fixtures Calendar will run in 2023.

*Feeling supported*
The last year has seen the launch of the British Eventing Support Trust (BEST) and I cannot stress enough the importance that people should place on knowing they have the assurance of our charity behind them. Should the worst happen, BEST is there to support you – whether it be with mental health support, practical or financial assistance. I naturally can’t disclose who has received help so far, but what I can say is that I am aware that the support the charity has been giving our members has been life changing. BEST is an incredible trust, and we are all very proud to be leading the way for other disciplines to follow with the setting up of this for our members benefit. For further information on the trust or ways to donate please visit besupporttrust.

*Peace of mind*
As an Intro, Standard or Premier member you have the reassurance of knowing that you have the benefit of Public Liability Insurance cover included within your membership. This covers you 365 days a year for any horse that you own, handle or ride; not just whilst you are at an event. For the PAYG and GO BE members you receive the same level of cover for the day of competition.

*Why BE?*
As a competitor it is often easy to forget what British Eventing has to offer that the others don’t, but there are so many reasons why it is important to compete within the infrastructure of a governing body. In my opinion, as someone who regularly ran events from grassroots through to international level, the same can be said as to why an event organiser should align with the national governing body of the sport if they are to give their competitors the very best duty of care.

By running an event with British Eventing organisers enjoy the blanket insurance cover we bring them, which in turn is a huge benefit for the competitor. The sports infrastructure, rules, safeguarding and health & safety regulations are unparalleled. When you add to this the safety measures that we have on course both in terms of technology and expertise, our clean sport policy, ground care equipment and serious incident procedures, then it is absolutely impossible to compare them like for like.

We received a letter recently praising our serious incident procedures at an event that they had the misfortune to need them. The member openly said they had never really realised the tremendous value that British Eventing brings and that now she would never consider entering an event that wasn’t registered to a national governing body. This really does speak volumes as to the role a governing body plays within sport.

*Overcoming challenges*
It would be wrong of me to only sing the positives, as I’m aware many of you have experienced issues with the entries system at some point this summer. However, the IT system also looks set to have a brighter future and I am delighted to say that we have started to overcome many of the issues that have been outstanding for a while and are work is continuing to ensure as smooth a transaction process for you going forward. We are also hopeful that 2023 should see organisers being able to choose to use other third party systems for entries, which will lighten the load on the BE infrastructure and the Head Office team.

The revised requirement of the banking network in the UK hasn’t helped with the user experience on the website. However many of those initial teething problems now seem to be behind us with there being less reported cases each morning of incomplete transactions.

The Banking validation requirement is here to stay and is a directive of the Bank of England. If you find that you are being asked to validate your payment more frequently than you feel acceptable, it is possible for you to speak to your bank directly and ask for British Eventing to be added to your list of trusted payees. In the meantime, please do contact the office if you need some help processing payments, where the membership team will be only too happy to assist you.

*And Finally…*
After team Gold medals at the Junior and Young Rider European Championships, we are about to start competing at the World Championships in Pratoni. British Eventing has never been stronger than it is today, and we will start the competition ready to defend our team and individual World titles as the reigning World, European and Olympic team Gold medallists.

I hope you will all show your support to the team representing us under the guidance of World Class Performance Manager, Dickie Waygood. Coverage of all three disciplines is available at clipmyhorse and I hope as many of you as possible will be tuning in to support the British team in their medal winning quest.

Thank you so much for taking the time to read my shared vision for the sport. We have so much more news to come over and above this and it is such an exciting time to be part of British Eventing.

Your support for British Eventing is appreciated more than I can say….
Best wishes
Helen West
CEO, British Eventing


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## LEC (14 September 2022)

Though they are just about to stop providing scorers to events so events can use who they want….. another cost cutting measure.


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## Ambers Echo (14 September 2022)

Thanks for sharing that - very interesting.


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## teapot (8 November 2022)

Sorry to bump this but the Jockey Club has ended the contract for running Blenheim after only two years.

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...com&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=social


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## LEC (8 November 2022)

I am sad about this as thought it was a very good tie in. Plus they ironed out a lot of the issues from year 1.

On another matter the OBP leagues have annoyed me a lot. That’s serious cash given away for a metric nobody cared about, can do very little about and doesn’t encourage frequency of runs as winners has 3 runs all season.


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## Squeak (8 November 2022)

LEC said:



			I am sad about this as thought it was a very good tie in. Plus they ironed out a lot of the issues from year 1.

On another matter the OBP leagues have annoyed me a lot. That’s serious cash given away for a metric nobody cared about, can do very little about and doesn’t encourage frequency of runs as winners has 3 runs all season.
		
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I agree with this, it seems a bit of an odd metric.  I think it's great to be trying to introduce more for grassroots to be aiming for but as you said for someone to win when they'd only run three times seems to be a bit counterproductive and almost encouraging people to run less.


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## Orangehorse (8 November 2022)

teapot said:



			Sorry to bump this but the Jockey Club has ended the contract for running Blenheim after only two years.

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...com&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=social

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That's a shame, but I wonder if the bad publicity about the accidents had anything to do with it too.  People forgot who won and did well and concentrated on the bad.


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## RachelFerd (8 November 2022)

Not sure if this is a website error or reality, but on the FEI website it looks like Bicton has Houghton Hall's normal May fixture?! I was just looking at FEI dates for Blair to plan my holidays around and spotted this...


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## Tiddlypom (8 November 2022)

Musketeer run both Cholmondeley BE (which was cancelled this year) and Houghton Hall BE. Same owner for both estates. Wonder if that is relevant.


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## teapot (8 November 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			Not sure if this is a website error or reality, but on the FEI website it looks like Bicton has Houghton Hall's normal May fixture?! I was just looking at FEI dates for Blair to plan my holidays around and spotted this...
		
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I thought I’d read calendar as saying still being confirmed, but nope, FEI events are confirmed. 

FEI 2023 calendar isn’t brimming with GB fixtures 😕


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## RachelFerd (8 November 2022)

teapot said:



			I thought I’d read calendar as saying still being confirmed, but nope, FEI events are confirmed.

FEI 2023 calendar isn’t brimming with GB fixtures 😕
		
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It's the normal set of fixtures as far as I could work out, but with a later summer date for Withington and Bicton not Houghton. Wouldn't be surprised if we see more late changes in coming weeks/months though.


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## LEC (8 November 2022)

Normal amount of FEI. Though think Wellington and Withington on same date is a mistake


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## Old school (11 November 2022)

On another matter the OBP leagues have annoyed me a lot. That’s serious cash given away for a metric nobody cared about, can do very little about and doesn’t encourage frequency of runs as winners has 3 runs all season.[/QUOTE]

Re the above, I have watched the comms from a certain company that is promoting this activity. I will be honest, I view the company fairly negatively as I really believe it is their intent to generate a betting side to the sport. Ultimately they will either partner up/sell out to a gambling type of operation. It is something that I would never associate with eventing. But that's my tuppence worth on their involvement re generating metrics etc.


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## canteron (26 November 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			Musketeer run both Cholmondeley BE (which was cancelled this year) and Houghton Hall BE. Same owner for both estates. Wonder if that is relevant.
		
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Houghton isn’t running this year - has that been confirmed?

Love the Houghton venue, but from a spectator point of view it’s really badly organised.  Very difficult to find out who is riding where and when or what is going on, and even the prize giving is done in the members - away from most visitors. 

And I heard the competitors were equally confused so maybe if it does run it needs a big rethink to attract punters.


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## LEC (27 November 2022)

canteron said:



			Houghton isn’t running this year - has that been confirmed?

Love the Houghton venue, but from a spectator point of view it’s really badly organised.  Very difficult to find out who is riding where and when or what is going on, and even the prize giving is done in the members - away from most visitors.

And I heard the competitors were equally confused so maybe if it does run it needs a big rethink to attract punters.
		
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Not on FEI list


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## RachelFerd (30 November 2022)

Positive update from Cumbria horse trials (organisers of Warwick Hall and of Frenchfield) - Warwick Hall has a new 1* by popular demand, and they're launching a new website and various bits of league stuff. They're no longer running unaffiliated days but will have a free to attend training day with info about GoBE and some rules refreshers. Reading between the lines it looks like they're really getting behind the idea of a new, flexible version of BE. Fingers crossed! I'll certainly support the new 1* as Warwick Hall is an event I've really enjoyed on both horses in recent seasons.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...6gPMgXMPwikndKiy9TdF1irMTl&id=100063453080954


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## LEC (1 December 2022)

I would like to see more 1* personally. I am hoping to make it to a offchurch next year. I think it’s good and easy aspiration for most members and is not pro heavy.


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## RachelFerd (1 December 2022)

LEC said:



			I would like to see more 1* personally. I am hoping to make it to a offchurch next year. I think it’s good and easy aspiration for most members and is not pro heavy.
		
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Oh yeah, my optimistic hope for the youngster, who will be 6 next year, is to target Offchurch, Warwick and Blair 1* events.


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## shortstuff99 (1 December 2022)

The Great Witchingham 1 and 2 British Eventing events are facing a very uncertain future due to changes BE have made to the sport, the fixtures calendar and the governance of the sport. 

If BE are stuck on the same path, sadly, both Great Witchingham events will have been rendered unviable despite protest and our 32 year commitment to our beloved sport and members who are unaware of the impacts BE’s changes have on events. These changes will effect the viability of many events, in particular, peripheral national class events which give the sport so much diversity and security with seasonal weather trends. 

 We have requested the return of FEI CCI2* and the additional of CCI1* for both events, U18 classes, qualifiers and a change of date for Gt Witchingham 2 to a more viable weekend and the rules of the balloting/extra day or days to be altered. These rules as they stand are extremely detrimental to peripheral events. 

A new BE strategic move/rule will see events unable to run unaffiliated events if they host FEI classes or host BE regional champs etc which would mean this is not possible for Gt Witchingham to host FEI etc. To us, this is an unacceptable restriction on free trade when our UA events help to subsidise our BE events and are a feeder for young horses and future BE competitors. Further cost savings to BE have been passed directly on to event costs, IT, entries/scorers to name but a few will see considerable extra event costs at a time when the grass roots uptake of the sport is in decline. 

We realise this will be a very sad loss for the Eastern Area BE members and so many whom have traveled from much further afield and who have enjoyed Gt Witchingham over the last 32 years but will stand to have lost 50% of the eastern areas events in recent years. Events must be financially viable to survive and flourish and we need BE to reconsider its decision and policies in the interest of the sport and its members in the east in what is a member owned organisation.

All our facilities, venue, schooling and UA, Pony Club, Riding club events etc are business as usual with full courses from 60cm to BE Intermediate available for hire.


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## RachelFerd (1 December 2022)

shortstuff99 said:



			The Great Witchingham 1 and 2 British Eventing events are facing a very uncertain future due to changes BE have made to the sport, the fixtures calendar and the governance of the sport.

If BE are stuck on the same path, sadly, both Great Witchingham events will have been rendered unviable despite protest and our 32 year commitment to our beloved sport and members who are unaware of the impacts BE’s changes have on events. These changes will effect the viability of many events, in particular, peripheral national class events which give the sport so much diversity and security with seasonal weather trends.

We have requested the return of FEI CCI2* and the additional of CCI1* for both events, U18 classes, qualifiers and a change of date for Gt Witchingham 2 to a more viable weekend and the rules of the balloting/extra day or days to be altered. These rules as they stand are extremely detrimental to peripheral events.

A new BE strategic move/rule will see events unable to run unaffiliated events if they host FEI classes or host BE regional champs etc which would mean this is not possible for Gt Witchingham to host FEI etc. To us, this is an unacceptable restriction on free trade when our UA events help to subsidise our BE events and are a feeder for young horses and future BE competitors. Further cost savings to BE have been passed directly on to event costs, IT, entries/scorers to name but a few will see considerable extra event costs at a time when the grass roots uptake of the sport is in decline.

We realise this will be a very sad loss for the Eastern Area BE members and so many whom have traveled from much further afield and who have enjoyed Gt Witchingham over the last 32 years but will stand to have lost 50% of the eastern areas events in recent years. Events must be financially viable to survive and flourish and we need BE to reconsider its decision and policies in the interest of the sport and its members in the east in what is a member owned organisation.

All our facilities, venue, schooling and UA, Pony Club, Riding club events etc are business as usual with full courses from 60cm to BE Intermediate available for hire.
		
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They have a perfectly legitimate choice - which is the one that Cumbria horse trials have made - which is to choose to run all of their grassroots events under affiliated structures, and actively promote the fact that GoBE allows people to take part in affiliated events as if they were unaffiliated. However, they don't want to run those events to BE standards. They could run them as eventer trials or training days, but again, they don't seem to want to.

It's a shame, because GW have super old school XC tracks - but they can't choose to have their cake and eat it - they've proven over some years now that they don't want to work in partnership with sporting structures - and that's not really helpful to anyone.


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## teapot (2 December 2022)

Who are BE to dictate that an event can only run FEI if they ditch their 60 or 70cm unaffiliated one day events though?

To have the attitude of one or the other says a lot about how they feel towards true grassroots riders…


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## RachelFerd (2 December 2022)

teapot said:



			Who are BE to dictate that an event can only run FEI if they ditch their 60 or 70cm unaffiliated one day events though?

To have the attitude of one or the other says a lot about how they feel towards true grassroots riders…
		
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Quite right you shouldn't be able to run FEI. They CAN run pony club, riding club, eventer trials and training days and STILL have the special privilege of running FEI. But they don't want to work in partnership with anyone.


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## Ambers Echo (2 December 2022)

Somerford don’t run unaff events but BE won’t give them their grassroots date back after not getting enough numbers to run last year.  Really don’t understand the logic of that but I’m gutted. My favourite event 😥


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## teapot (2 December 2022)

RachelFerd said:



			Quite right you shouldn't be able to run FEI. They CAN run pony club, riding club, eventer trials and training days and STILL have the special privilege of running FEI. But they don't want to work in partnership with anyone.
		
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Still seems short sighted if unaffiliated provides the income to fund/improve BE and FEI events.

The attitude of unaffiliated is proving so tempting we’re losing members, let’s prevent our events from running anything that isn’t affiliated, that’ll show ‘em, is demonstrating BE’s complete lack of willingness to look at the reasons closer to home as to why people are voting with their feet. 

BE are going to kill their own sport soon.


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## ester (2 December 2022)

Some do seem to have missed that GoBE isn't helping the people that want to run at lower than 80cm, and there's plenty of them. 

Why shouldn't you be able to run FEI and low level unaffiliated events for the rest of us? I really don't get it.

Running via PC/RC isn't the same, that's basically facilities hire for the day and IME RC doesn't have enough people to volunteer to run full ODE unless it's multiple RC, PC a bit more as at least you can strong arm a parent.


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## RachelFerd (2 December 2022)

ester said:



			Some do seem to have missed that GoBE isn't helping the people that want to run at lower than 80cm, and there's plenty of them.

Why shouldn't you be able to run FEI and low level unaffiliated events for the rest of us? I really don't get it.

Running via PC/RC isn't the same, that's basically facilities hire for the day and IME RC doesn't have enough people to volunteer to run full ODE unless it's multiple RC, PC a bit more as at least you can strong arm a parent.
		
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There is absolutely nothing stopping venues like GW joining forces with a RC and running their unaff under the auspices of a RC event - absolutely nothing.


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## ester (2 December 2022)

Ah yes of course, you must be right.  Perhaps you could explain it  to them so they know? And maybe volunteer a RC who are happy to do so?


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## shortstuff99 (22 December 2022)

Clearly sites aren't very happy with increased oversight from BE or being told to when to run unaffiliated as another site has decided to quit BE in favour of their own events.


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## ester (22 December 2022)

And drama that they’ve taken the young horse champs off osberton and followed the money


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## ycbm (22 December 2022)

shortstuff99 said:



			Clearly sites aren't very happy with increased oversight from BE or being told to when to run unaffiliated as another site has decided to quit BE in favour of their own events.

View attachment 104648

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I think BE is probably now waking up to what they did when they chased after the fees from the lower levels to use the money to finance the higher levels,  and then failed to give people who never aspire to more than the lower levels (called "the majority")  what they need.
.


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## LEC (22 December 2022)

Pontispool is a strange one as mostly PC/RC unaff odes so there must be other things on the new contracts.
It’s good for Monmouth though which is a lovely grassroots event and always suffers with the PP clash.
The horse I sold recently won the 2* at Cornbury and won £1200. That’s unbelievable money as normally £200 if you are lucky.


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## teapot (22 December 2022)

The use of the words ‘external dictates’ is interesting 🤔


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## ester (22 December 2022)

LEC said:



			Pontispool is a strange one as mostly PC/RC unaff odes so there must be other things on the new contracts.
It’s good for Monmouth though which is a lovely grassroots event and always suffers with the PP clash.
The horse I sold recently won the 2* at Cornbury and won £1200. That’s unbelievable money as normally £200 if you are lucky.
		
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yes it did make me think re previous discussion that it wasn’t restrictive as organisers/centred could run unaff under an rc/pc umbrella but that’s what pontispool mostly do anyway.


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## millitiger (22 December 2022)

ester said:



			yes it did make me think re previous discussion that it wasn’t restrictive as organisers/centred could run unaff under an rc/pc umbrella but that’s what pontispool mostly do anyway.
		
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I've been thinking about this too and wonder if people haven't grasped venues can run with RC or PC umbrella?
Reading a lot of comments on the Facebook posts, a lot of people are assuming NO unaffiliated events at all can be run. 🤷‍♀️


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## teapot (22 December 2022)

Maybe running RC or PC events only isn't enough though if you've got a business to run...


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## ycbm (22 December 2022)

If you run an RC or PC competition,  then unless you have some wierd arrangement where all you are doing is using their name,  then the RC/PC want to hire the course and organise their own event,  so they will get the entry fees. 

Of course venues want to run their own competitions to take all the revenues. 
.


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## LEC (22 December 2022)

ycbm said:



			If you run an RC or PC competition,  then unless you have some wierd arrangement where all you are doing is using their name,  then the RC/PC want to hire the course and organise their own event,  so they will get the entry fees.

Of course venues want to run their own competitions to take all the revenues.
.
		
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Pontispool has only ever run the BE as its own. It doesn’t run its own events until now, where they will pick up the Cotswold Cup


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## ester (22 December 2022)

I think my comment has been misunderstood. Certainly in my memory pontispool haven't run their own unaffiliated events (though I've obv not been local recently but Lec would know  ), they hire out to other bodies to run them, but they have still stepped away from BE - which would suggest the new no unaffiliated rule isn't the reason from them stepping away.


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## LEC (22 December 2022)

Our RC qualifier was going to be annoyingly early to run after the BE at PP this year. Normally they had an end of May date so we would run first week of June. I have asked if other dates available now.


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## TheMule (22 December 2022)

Ponstipool has seen a big decline in entries at Novice/ Intermeidate, mostly since it got a reputation for being very up to height and technical xc (which they have tried to resolve with a new course designer)


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## ycbm (22 December 2022)

LEC said:



			Pontispool has only ever run the BE as its own. It doesn’t run its own events until now, where they will pick up the Cotswold Cup
		
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I wasn't talking about Pontispool, but about the "venues can always run lower classes  RC/PC" comment.
.


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## mini_b (22 December 2022)

TheMule said:



			Ponstipool has seen a big decline in entries at Novice/ Intermeidate, mostly since it got a reputation for being very up to height and technical xc (which they have tried to resolve with a new course designer)
I won’t event there again until they sort out the surface in the SJ warm up. I heard there were lots of complaints after the BE. I guess grassroots riders are less fussy/ less inclined to notice such things.
		
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I do not event at intermediate or novice (novice is in my future somewhere, intermediate absolutely not) but surely fences SHOULD be up to height?


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## TheMule (23 December 2022)

mini_b said:



			I do not event at intermediate or novice (novice is in my future somewhere, intermediate absolutely not) but surely fences SHOULD be up to height?
		
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There's a fine line between big/ technical enough and having enough breathing space for the horse to have an enjoyable round. I think it probably just got the balance slightly wrong a couple of times which put people off. Of course some courses have a reputation for being harder/ better for a horse due to upgrade next run, but they tend to be the big pro-heavy ones at feature events and that’s just not Ponstipool's market.


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## mini_b (23 December 2022)

TheMule said:



			There's a fine line between big/ technical enough and having enough breathing space for the horse to have an enjoyable round. I think it probably just got the balance slightly wrong a couple of times which put people off. Of course some courses have a reputation for being harder/ better for a horse due to upgrade next run, but they tend to be the big pro-heavy ones at feature events and that’s just not Ponstipool's market.
		
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thank you for clearing that up


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