# 'Incident' at BD convention??



## Ellie2893 (28 November 2013)

Anyone know what actually happened regarding Becky Moody?? Just read on the bd forum but post was taken down.... 
Apologies if this isn't allowed to be posted here!


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## onemoretime (28 November 2013)

Its just been re posted on BD Forum.  Seems horse got a bit heated and rider pulled its head round to the side to try and get him to calm down.  As I wasn't there I cant really say what actually happened.


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## TheMule (28 November 2013)

Oops, not a great thing to do at a very public demo.....


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## dappyness (28 November 2013)

It didnt happen at the demo. It happened the eveing before during a meeting on horse welfare.  There is a cafe that overlooks the arena at Hartpury where a few people were watching the horses being exercised.
On Sunday Becky made a statement about what people saw, not an apology. She went on the say how, at times, the horse has no self preservation and can be quite dangerous in walk or when standing. To overcome this she flexes the horses head to one side to get it thinking. She has been trained in this way by a leading trainer (forget who) 
Now I think there was an uproar about it as it looked like hyper flexion to one side. What made it worse was that the convention was being led by Adaline - who I hasten to say is a fabulous person, absolutly lover her now (no mention of rolkur and even told someone they were riding tooinverted)

Lots of debate on the BD site as you would expect on a subject like this...


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## katpower (29 November 2013)

Sounds like she did a One Rein Stop. Do y'all have them over there?
http://www.horseproblems.com.au/one_rein_stop_page.htm
Incredibly useful tool!


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## Booboos (29 November 2013)

BD are so silly deleting this, it just fuels the fire and of course people are free to post elsewhere!

I can tell you what I saw on the Sunday. Moody came in, in walk, wearing a mike. She said she wanted to explain what had happened the previous evening (riders had been warming up in the indoor on Saturday evening while the BD meeting was taking place in the gallery above). She said that it had not been her intention to offend anyone and apologised if she had done so. The horse is a young horse she has been having a lot of problems with. He is fine in trot and canter when he has something to think about but goes completely bonkers in walk and halt to the point where he is really dangerous as he has no self preservation.

She had tried being gentle with him, and within her abilities, she had tried being tough with him but gotten nowhere. Then she went to long training clinic with her trainer (also forget the name) where they came up with this flexion as a way of keeping them both safe. She demonstrated the flexion in walk, the horse is long and low, and the head is flexed to the side about the level of the knee (doesn't look like rollkur to me, doesn't look like a one rein stop, to me it looks like a Baucherite flexion but interestingly I think 2000 people saw it and I bet you there are 2000 different versions of what it was). 

Then she worked with Adelinde to resolve the problem. Adelinde worked with her on speed control and visualisation and the horse did a number of nice halts and walked calmly through-out. There was no rolkur in Adelinde's suggestion to either this rider or anyone else.

That is what I know directly. From the BD thread it appears that some people were upset at the way Moody was warming up on the Saturday (the words 'aggressively' and 'forcefully' were used), that possibly a BD stewart may have gone down to talk to Moody (or not), and that Moody had left the arena because of this (or not, she decided to leave anyway).


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## Marydoll (30 November 2013)

I Wasnt there so dont know what happened but if ive got a horse who's acting like a tit and likely to express themselves in a manner where im about to lose control leading to dangerous situation, id happily flex them right round to my leg and disengage the quarters and have done so before on an extremely volatile large horse because imo it works and for the horse i was on it defused whatever was going on in his head


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## MerrySherryRider (30 November 2013)

Am I missing something here, as I can't see the problem -unless it was done with aggression perhaps.
Horses are flexed in this way for all sorts of reasons, including by physio's and it isn't harmful, unless the head was yanked and forced to stay in position for too long.


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## Booboos (30 November 2013)

Well some people who had seen the incident on Saturday said it was aggressive and too long, others said it was perfectly fine and what they would have done to keep everyone safe.


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## MadBlackLab (30 November 2013)

Marydoll said:



			I Wasnt there so dont know what happened but if ive got a horse who's acting like a tit and likely to express themselves in a manner where im about to lose control leading to dangerous situation, id happily flex them right round to my leg and disengage the quarters and have done so before on an extremely volatile large horse because imo it works and for the horse i was on it defused whatever was going on in his head
		
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This. It been a different story if she hadn't controlled the horse. You can't please some people


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## MagicMelon (30 November 2013)

Marydoll said:



			I Wasnt there so dont know what happened but if ive got a horse who's acting like a tit and likely to express themselves in a manner where im about to lose control leading to dangerous situation, id happily flex them right round to my leg and disengage the quarters
		
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Perhaps I'm missing it here, but if I had a horse who was "dangerous" and had "no self-preservation" then I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be taking that horse out to a big demo/event in the first place.  Not until the problem was well and truly sorted! Would really pee me off if I had to warm my horse up beside a horse described as this!


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## Ferdinase514 (30 November 2013)

Hallelujah! Some sensible people. Can you please all go on the BD forum and knock some sense in to them?!


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## Tiddlypom (30 November 2013)

Ferdinase514 said:



			Hallelujah! Some sensible people. Can you please all go on the BD forum and knock some sense in to them?!
		
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Why, what are they saying on the BD forum?


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## georgiegirl (30 November 2013)

I wasnt there so didnt see it so I am commenting PURELY on the basis of the description provided on here....

surely folk in extreme situations use bend/flexion as a means of distracting or shielding a horse from something?? Wether that be on oncoming car, a busy gallery causing MAJOR spooks or impending broncing fit for example? I for sure as hell dont see whats wrong with that, it certainly doesnt mean you need to ride like that the rest of the time....


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## dappyness (30 November 2013)

I was there on Sunday when Becky was miked up during her training session with AC. She made a statement and really that should have been it.  There has been massive uproar on the BD site and a few threads have been pulled - I think we should invite the BD members on her at the beginning of holidays to show them how mean some threads can get before they get pulled - pass the popcorn anyone!

Anyway, I thought the woman who made the seriously long statement about the length of reins when walking should have more posts than Becky. Now THAT was one rude woman!


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## Marydoll (1 December 2013)

MagicMelon said:



			Perhaps I'm missing it here, but if I had a horse who was "dangerous" and had "no self-preservation" then I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be taking that horse out to a big demo/event in the first place.  Not until the problem was well and truly sorted! Would really pee me off if I had to warm my horse up beside a horse described as this!
		
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Youre missing the point if youre implying the horse i did this with was at an event, it wasnt, and wouldnt be if there was a chance it would go off in company.


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## TarrSteps (1 December 2013)

Wasn't the whole point of having the horse there to get AC's help in addressing the problem? Which, from reports, seems to have been at least partially successful. There also didn't seem to be any suggestion she actually endangered anyone.  It's also quite possible the horse has improved at home but not out and about, in which case a clinic/forum situation seems a sensible intermediary step


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## j1ffy (1 December 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Wasn't the whole point of having the horse there to get AC's help in addressing the problem? Which, from reports, seems to have been at least partially successful. There also didn't seem to be any suggestion she actually endangered anyone.  It's also quite possible the horse has improved at home but not out and about, in which case a clinic/forum situation seems a sensible intermediary step
		
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Exactly this - I don't think anyone is infallible and, as we all know, it would take many lifetimes to learn all there is to learn about riding and training horses.  It sounds to me like she had found a way (i.e. the extreme flexing) to make the horse safe but was seeking a better way to deal with it.  Fair play to her for getting out there and tackling it head-on, it's a shame that she's been pounced on in other forums.


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## CoachinaCar (1 December 2013)

I think there were a lot of pony-patters there that have never sat on a sharpe quick horse in their lives.


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## Booboos (1 December 2013)

Loads of people use these kinds of events to help sharp horses gain confidence and/or ask for help with them, e.g. last year Carl Hester brough Dances with Wolves with him and the horse was so tense he had to share the arena with Nip N Tuck and all his rider was able to do with him was trot him around for most of the two demos (the horse is now doing wonderfully well so clearly the strategy worked).

I think the main problem for many people was that a welfare complaint was made against the rider that day. In some respects BD seems to have taken this seriously, possibly sent a steward down to ask Moody to stop, possibly asking Moody to explain herself the next day, but BD never made an official statement, i.e. are they OK with how she rode, do they have objections to how she rode but are happy with what has happened so far, etc. 

For me the whole mess is merely one of the extensions of problems from the FEI's waffly and impossible to apply statement on hyperflexion.


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## MiaBella (2 December 2013)

CoachinaCar said:



			I think there were a lot of pony-patters there that have never sat on a sharpe quick horse in their lives.
		
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I think you will find a few of those (the ones I know personally at least) who were there, witnessed the incident and were disgusted by the way the rider dealt with the issue are not pony patters, but listed judges who aren't fluffy bunnies and who have owned/ridden difficult sharp quality horses and trained with some tough trainers.

If the rider had been dutch or trained by Sjef or Anky or Adelinde or Kittel or similar would there have been more outcry and less defence offered? 

It wasn't a smart career move. 

Its a real shame that this has over shadowed the convention which seems to have been received really well and got a lot of people enthused and motivated (also seems that AC came up with a way of managing the dangerous horse in a way that didn't involve hyperflexion) 

Not sure what it is about the BD convention, this year everyone is fixated on this incident (including many who weren't there), last year most of the posts seemed to be on who got up and left early and disturbed others and whether reserving seats by putting jackets on them was acceptable or not.  Would much rather read reports of what the training was and what people learnt!


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## CoachinaCar (2 December 2013)

I was there at ground level when it happened and maybe she could have handled it better but I was not sitting on it so wasn't feeling what the rider was feeling but she certainly did not pull the horse around or attack it in any way, I would not say if Adelinde handled it in a different or better way as the horse came in much calmer on the second day so the opportunity did not arise for Adelinde to show how she would deal with it and as the horse only does it occasionally you could go for a week before you would have the chance to try a different method.

This rider has been unfairly attacked a lot of which by people that were not there or did not see it, I have also heard several different views of what people saw even those that saw it seem unable to agree on what happened.

She has been judged and sentenced by media and no I do not know her personally.


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## MadBlackLab (2 December 2013)

CoachinaCar said:



			I think there were a lot of pony-patters there that have never sat on a sharpe quick horse in their lives.
		
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Oh yeah I've met a few of them just cause their horse is boring (doesn't put a foot wrong, and does what  is asked) everything else is dangerous


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## amandap (2 December 2013)

Booboos said:



			He is fine in trot and canter when he has something to think about but goes completely bonkers in walk and halt to the point where he is really dangerous as he has no self preservation.
		
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I am intrigued to know what dangerous as he has no self preservation means?  Mind boggling, no wonder dressage is above my head. lol


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## PolarSkye (2 December 2013)

MadBlackLab said:



			Oh yeah I've met a few of them just cause their horse is boring (doesn't put a foot wrong, and does what  is asked) everything else is dangerous
		
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This made me smile .  

P


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## amandap (2 December 2013)

PolarSkye said:



			This made me smile .  

P
		
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Missed that one, made me smile as well.


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## Booboos (2 December 2013)

amandap said:



			I am intrigued to know what dangerous as he has no self preservation means?  Mind boggling, no wonder dressage is above my head. lol
		
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This is how Moody described the horse. On Sunday it displayed no such behaviour. I don't know what happened on the Saturday but I don't think it was as bad as he could be as she controlled him with the flexion. 

I have had a horse with no self preservation. When she had a major paddy she would do things that were self-harming, e.g. once she slamed herself against a wall (with a rider on) hitting both her head and her body. I've heard of a horse that would reverse with no self preservation, e.g. down a ditch and continue until it fliped backwards.


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## Booboos (2 December 2013)

CoachinaCar said:



			This rider has been unfairly attacked a lot of which by people that were not there or did not see it, I have also heard several different views of what people saw even those that saw it seem unable to agree on what happened.

She has been judged and sentenced by media and no I do not know her personally.
		
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People cannot even accurately describe what happened which is a fundamental problem with the FEI welfare rules on warm-up. If a bunch of judges, riders, trainers, all seeing the same horse on the same day cannot agree on the description of what happened and whether it was acceptable or not, what hope do stewarts have?

Well to be fair that is mainly the fault of BD for not coming out with a statement, either saying she did nothing wrong or she did something wrong and has been penalised.


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## amandap (2 December 2013)

Booboos said:



			This is how Moody described the horse. On Sunday it displayed no such behaviour. I don't know what happened on the Saturday but I don't think it was as bad as he could be as she controlled him with the flexion. 

I have had a horse with no self preservation. When she had a major paddy she would do things that were self-harming, e.g. once she slamed herself against a wall (with a rider on) hitting both her head and her body. I've heard of a horse that would reverse with no self preservation, e.g. down a ditch and continue until it fliped backwards.
		
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No self preservation, sounds like blind panic to me then. 

Obviously a rider has to do what is required to stay and keep others safe, but why ride these horses in the first place, I don't get it? A horse that is known to act dangerously with " no self preservation" has no place at a public event imho.


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## RunToEarth (2 December 2013)

I was not at the convention nor do I have a particularly in depth technical understanding of the discipline. Their yard is local to my parents and a good friend of mine is one of their grooms, as a result I have been to their yard and had the pleasure of watching them train. Having seen him turn itself inside out before, having absolutely no regard for himself or the person sat on top of him she has my sympathy. Gut reactions are one thing, but I think she manages his behaviour in a very sensible and controlled manner, I couldn't say I wouldn't be pulling teeth in her situation - he is a difficult horse.


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## TarrSteps (2 December 2013)

I can think of two dressage World Champions off the top of my head who were seriously hurt by their WCh winning mounts, and a list of top horses in all the disciplines that spent time on the 'mad, bad and dangerous to know' list at some pont. I don't think there is any corollary between dangerous behaviour BUT horses with the ability and mentality to go to the top can be very difficult and there are not so many great talents in the world that you can just move on ro the next one. The line between genius and madman can be pretty thin!

On some level I thought this was what educational opposites like this were for, to get a glimpse of what life is like where the air is thin. I wouldn't go to a Team GB cycling convention and expect it to all be pertinent to the pleasure cyclist crowd. 

I guess time will tell. Hopefully she'll get the horse sorted. Any road, people will soon move on the the next drama.


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## MagicMelon (2 December 2013)

Marydoll said:



			Youre missing the point if youre implying the horse i did this with was at an event, it wasnt, and wouldnt be if there was a chance it would go off in company.
		
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What?  Sorry, I'm talking about the horse this whole post is about. Think you think I'm aiming this at you which I'm not!


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## Booboos (2 December 2013)

Adelinde said that Parcival was unridable when she first saw him. He was up for sale and the owner asked if she would be willing to pop on him to show him off. All he did was run from one end of the arena to the other. The next day the prospective buyers refused to even get on him. I think I read elsewhere that she broke 5 bones on falls from the horse.

There is a H&C TV documentary where Judy Harvey says that she advised Charlotte to not ride Valegro as he was too dangerous for a young girl - he used to galop off across all the Addington arenas.

The goal of dressage is to make it look easy but it would be a mistake to think that therefore it is easy!


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## MS123 (2 December 2013)

Booboos said:



			The goal of dressage is to make it look easy but it would be a mistake to think that therefore it is easy!
		
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Absolutely spot on!


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## TarrSteps (2 December 2013)

Booboos said:



			Adelinde said that Parcival was unridable when she first saw him. He was up for sale and the owner asked if she would be willing to pop on him to show him off. All he did was run from one end of the arena to the other. The next day the prospective buyers refused to even get on him. I think I read elsewhere that she broke 5 bones on falls from the horse.

There is a H&C TV documentary where Judy Harvey says that she advised Charlotte to not ride Valegro as he was too dangerous for a young girl - he used to galop off across all the Addington arenas.

The goal of dressage is to make it look easy but it would be a mistake to think that therefore it is easy!
		
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That's three broken WCh riders then.  

Edward was also very forthcoming about his reluctance to get on Totilas when they first met. 

I was at a Balkenhol clinic and there was a discussion about draw reins, which he categorically stated he never uses.  Someone asked if he ever made an exception for riding extremely strong, difficult young horses for safety's sake.  He laughed and said something like, "Oh, I don't ride horses like that anymore.  I have an endless supply of 20 year old farm boy apprentices to do that!" 

I also know a very good GP rider who originally had Salinero and sent him down the road as unridable. 

The fact is, the sort of energy and athleticism that makes what we now define as a champion dressage horse is not always for the faint of heart and often pushes the margins of what the best riders and trainers in the world can deal with.  This is part of the reason I raise my eyebrows when I read about people on internet forums buying horses from these bloodlines to have for their very own. What if you get all of the scary bits and don't even have a World Champion to show for it in the end??


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## TarrSteps (2 December 2013)

MS123 said:



			Absolutely spot on!
		
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Quite.


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## {97702} (2 December 2013)

Well at least it is easy to link people on this thread to people on the BD forum, those who have the discourtesy to consistently refer to the rider in question by her surname.  Would you, I wonder, consistently refer to 'Hester' or 'Dujardin' in the same way?


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## amandap (2 December 2013)

Booboos said:



			Adelinde said that Parcival was unridable when she first saw him. He was up for sale and the owner asked if she would be willing to pop on him to show him off. All he did was run from one end of the arena to the other. The next day the prospective buyers refused to even get on him. I think I read elsewhere that she broke 5 bones on falls from the horse.

There is a H&C TV documentary where Judy Harvey says that she advised Charlotte to not ride Valegro as he was too dangerous for a young girl - he used to galop off across all the Addington arenas.

The goal of dressage is to make it look easy but it would be a mistake to think that therefore it is easy!
		
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Yes a difficult horse is one thing but a dangerous horse that has no self preservation is a different matter. There is surely something very wrong with the breeding, handling, management or early training to produce horses like this!  Why are they pushed to panic behaviours? Surely training should avoid the horses resistance?
I've heard the 'needs to be hot' argument and can accept it in todays dressage but if horses are no self preservation dangerous then perhaps the whole system needs looking at! What about the horses never mind the riders?

I thought the aim of dressage was to produce an immaculately schooled, light, willing, obedient and responsive horse, not one held just under the point of exploding.

ps.I realize I am off topic but picked up on the dangerous no self preservation point.


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## Ferdinase514 (2 December 2013)

I think you probably have focussed in on that one point a little too much.

This horse when he gets himself in a pickle has no self preservation - you know some horse throw a tantrum but only take it so far and always keep themselves out of harms way and some just don't.

No problem with breeding or training of the horse, just his personality. He is very well trained, nice to be around and by all accounts a dream to ride. You have to remember he did a lot of very big shows as a young horse and going to a comp is now a big thing for him.


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## Ferdinase514 (2 December 2013)

"Well at least it is easy to link people on this thread to people on the BD forum, those who have the discourtesy to consistently refer to the rider in question by her surname. Would you, I wonder, consistently refer to 'Hester' or 'Dujardin' in the same way?"

I did think that too. But decided to resist a feminist rant here.....


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## Booboos (2 December 2013)

Picklenash said:



			Well at least it is easy to link people on this thread to people on the BD forum, those who have the discourtesy to consistently refer to the rider in question by her surname.  Would you, I wonder, consistently refer to 'Hester' or 'Dujardin' in the same way? 

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I don't get this point at all. I referred to her as Moody because I do not know her and it is a sign of familiarity or condescention to refer to someone by their first name (implying they are younger or less important than you). Why would you mind this?


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## {97702} (2 December 2013)

Booboos said:



			I don't get this point at all. I referred to her as Moody because I do not know her and it is a sign of familiarity or condescention to refer to someone by their first name (implying they are younger or less important than you). Why would you mind this?
		
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I mind it because, as I have said, it is discourteous?  Call her by her full name if you don't want to appear familiar or condescending, it is not considered polite in English society (unless you are a public schoolboy) to refer to someone by their surname consistently. 

I do not know Becky Moody in any way, so this is nothing personal for me, but you manage to refer to Carl Hester by his full name so why not Becky Moody?  Just plain rude IMHO....


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## spookypony (2 December 2013)

Picklenash said:



			I mind it because, as I have said, it is discourteous?  Call her by her full name if you don't want to appear familiar or condescending, it is not considered polite in English society (unless you are a public schoolboy) to refer to someone by their surname consistently. 

I do not know Becky Moody in any way, so this is nothing personal for me, but you manage to refer to Carl Hester by his full name so why not Becky Moody?  Just plain rude IMHO....
		
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Sorry, not party to this discussion in any other way as didn't see the 'incident' so couldn't comment, but I'm quite sure no rudeness was intended on anyone's part...I'd say it's pretty normal to refer to someone by surname only, especially in the academic circles from which Booboos hails. For example, I'd only put a first name with 'Klimke' if I needed to clarify if I meant Reiner or Ingrid (or indeed any other family member...). Indeed, one might argue that using the surname alone implies a compliment, as it suggests that there could not possibly be any confusion as to who is meant ('Bach' alone always means J.S., in modern times). While I acknowledge that here, a first name is mentioned more often than not, I really don't think Booboos should be accused of any rudeness!


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## TarrSteps (2 December 2013)

I thought the aim of dressage was to produce an immaculately schooled, light, willing, obedient and responsive horse, not one held just under the point of exploding.
.
		
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Hmmmmmmmm. . ...


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## paddi22 (2 December 2013)

i have a very sharp ex racer who used to/does rear and i use that flexion to cut him off before he gets himself in a state.  Often it just takes a few seconds, but it gives him time to calm down and not freak out. I can flex him for a few seconds and everything is fine, crisis is averted. 

There is no amount of schooling that can stop his natural tendencies and there can always be something at a show that can set off any horse. If it's a tactic that works on that horse, and by the sounds of it, it did, then i don't see what the issue is?


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## {97702} (2 December 2013)

spookypony said:



			Sorry, not party to this discussion in any other way as didn't see the 'incident' so couldn't comment, but I'm quite sure no rudeness was intended on anyone's part...I'd say it's pretty normal to refer to someone by surname only, especially in the academic circles from which Booboos hails. For example, I'd only put a first name with 'Klimke' if I needed to clarify if I meant Reiner or Ingrid (or indeed any other family member...). Indeed, one might argue that using the surname alone implies a compliment, as it suggests that there could not possibly be any confusion as to who is meant ('Bach' alone always means J.S., in modern times). While I acknowledge that here, a first name is mentioned more often than not, I really don't think Booboos should be accused of any rudeness!
		
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Then you and I clearly move in very different circles Spookypony, it is certainly not normal amongst my friends, acquaintances and work colleagues   I personally have used the HHO forum and others since around 2004 (under different user names of course!) and have never found it common practice to refer to individuals by their surname only, this is the first instance I have noticed of such behaviour.

However this being a public forum and all, everyone is entitled to their own views and opinions, I was simply explaining to Booboos why I found her approach rude.


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## amandap (2 December 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Hmmmmmmmm. . ...

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## Booboos (3 December 2013)

Picklenash said:



			I mind it because, as I have said, it is discourteous?  Call her by her full name if you don't want to appear familiar or condescending, it is not considered polite in English society (unless you are a public schoolboy) to refer to someone by their surname consistently. 

I do not know Becky Moody in any way, so this is nothing personal for me, but you manage to refer to Carl Hester by his full name so why not Becky Moody?  Just plain rude IMHO....
		
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In the first instance I referred to her as "Becky Moody" and subsequently as "Moody" or "the rider" - nothing discourteous about that. I would expect my uni students to refer to me as "Dr Surname" at the first instance and until I say "call me First Name"; someone critiquing my book would also refer to me as "Surname", not "First Name". Or if you want another example, a journalist could refer to the PM as "Cameron" or the TV news could say "Armstrong admited to taking drugs" without intending anything by the use of the surname alone (They don't say "Good old Lance won the race" but "Despicable Armstrong took drugs").

In any case it is bizarre to read too much into this as my posts were in no way disparaging of her actions. I think she did nothing wrong, in fact I only criticised BD and the FEI.


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## Ellie2893 (3 December 2013)

Ohhhhh boy. Looks like I opened a can of worms!


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