# dressage...behind the vertical



## kate2323 (18 August 2014)

hi ,
i am interested in peoples thoughts on dressage and the continual viewing of horses and ponies behind the vertical...in BD at all levels filtering down to unaffilaiated
is this now the norm in dressage ( bd / unaffiliated / riding club ...if so is this a trend we should be following or trying to stop?
As a rider I do  find it easier to pull  my horse down and kick it from behind to achieve a beautiful yet "false and possibly  painful" round  and submissive horse  then to ride correctly and get a beautiful streamlined head and back... I choose to ride in the latter style always yet  continually  loose marks as my horse is " not submissive , not accepting the bridle etc etc "    but he is free, happy and "up" - on the bit does not have to be neck pulled in surely?!!
this is a real dilemma....
feel free to debate


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## alainax (18 August 2014)

Bear in mind not all horses are BTV as the rider is forcing them to be. Just like some who evade/avoid/ still learning to work properly on the bit will go above, some will also duck behind. Particularly with lower level stuff, where horses may not yet be truly trained to be round or on the bit yet, ducking BTV could be quite common. 

I actually find it annoying when people presume a horse is BTV as the rider has socked him in the gob or see-sawed the reins to get him there - some horses just naturally chose that way of going and it takes some careful training to get them out of it.

At an Unaff show I was at recently, i got the comment of "over bent" so it is certainly something the judges do see, and comment /deduct marks on. My boy will naturally tuck BTV, I spend a huge amount of our time trying to get him to stretch him frame and neck out. But just like others who are naturally star gazers, or ABV, while we are still in more basic training there are times where he drops the nice outline and ends up btv for a few strides.


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## kate2323 (18 August 2014)

good point but should this be rewarded - why cant judges actually be allowed to write "behind the bit" ," in front of the bit "and "on the bit"...why is everything clouded in mystique with expressions like "does not accept the bridle" , "not submissive " "not through"
Why can't judges speak in plain english?!


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## JFTDWS (18 August 2014)

I've seen "ducking behind bit/contact" on sheets before...  I hate seeing horses with their chins on their chests, and I think BTV should be strictly penalised relative to on, or just in front of the vertical (i.e. working correctly into the bit).  Equally I think horses cruising round without any notion of working into the bit should be marked down accordingly.  Judges have to look at the whole picture, and whilst I agree that some need to be harsher on BTV, I don't think this is a universal problem.


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## kate2323 (18 August 2014)

every prelim/novice/elementary  BD competition i have entered most horses are btv. fact


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## JFTDWS (18 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			every prelim/novice/elementary  BD competition i have entered most horses are btv. fact
		
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Regional variation - I don't see many at elementary which are noticably BTV.  And I would notice...


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## be positive (18 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			every prelim/novice/elementary  BD competition i have entered most horses are btv. fact
		
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It is certainly not the case when I have been out, BD, BE or unaff, most judges mark down horses that are btv, one horse I had was inclined to drop behind, definitely not pulled there, his marks always reflected this and the comments were usually that he was btv or some similar term, the collectives also reflected his inclination to duck behind, he was a super mover but hardly ever managed to get a good mark as he became tense in the arena.


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## kate2323 (18 August 2014)

sorry but I regularly do BD and most horse in prelim and novice are btv....that is why there is now so much press about dressage in crisis appearing as this is a real issue..people are training horses for a quick fix so they look "round "when infact they are incorrect and btv...resulting in back problems, kissing spines etc etc...it takes a long time to train a horse correctly so alot of people want a quick fix ....


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## Batgirl (18 August 2014)

Fascinating, I see v few btv when judging and know few judges who speak in less than plain English. Obviously in a lucky area.
As a trainee judge, btv and node poking are equally penalised if they have an equal affect on the whole picture.


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## kate2323 (18 August 2014)

so you don't live in gloucester then!


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## JFTDWS (18 August 2014)

As I say, Essex, rarely see notably BTV horses in the ring here.  Unless you count my 4 year old doing his first unaff prelim the other month, where he did spend a lot of time BTV (and a fairly equal amount of time exiting the arena or throwing himself around in a paddy), who was obviously marked down dramatically for tension...



kate2323 said:



			people are training horses for a quick fix so they look "round "when infact they are incorrect and btv...resulting in back problems, kissing spines etc etc...
		
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Have you actually got any evidence to support that statement?  "BTV (and that's BTV NOT rollkur for this debate) causes back problems and KS"...


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## Pigeon (19 August 2014)

Kate I see it a lot too. I'm fairly local to you so it might be a regional thing. I do think there's a move away from that in the last year or two, and it was worse three years ago than it is now.

It's something that interests me and I've done a lot of reading on it.

You get BTV for many many reasons. Sometimes it's a lack of strength on the part of the horse, sometimes it is simply their head being cranked in by the rider. Some horses go through a phase of it before they learn to carry themselves in a more upright outline.


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## lizziebell (19 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			every prelim/novice/elementary  BD competition i have entered most horses are btv. fact
		
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You will always see horses btv, for various reasons (as mentioned by other posters). I don't think this can be called a trend and it is not advocated by judging guidelines. Unless you read all of these horses test sheets you can't possibly know what the judges comments are. There are many aspects to judge on each movement, and little time/ space for comments. If a horse is consistently btv in a test, then this will be reflected in each movement mark, and will be commented on in the judges comments. A judge will try to offer "constructive" comments - just writing "horse btv", is not useful, as there are so many reasons for a horse to btv. Therefore where possible a judge will give an idea of where they feel the issue is arising, e.g "not through", "against the hand" etc etc.

Btv is not acceptable at any level, but the importance and how it reflects in the marks does change as you move up the levels and scales of training. The higher you go, the more you will get hammered on your marks for incorrect way of going.


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## Skib (19 August 2014)

Interesting thread and question - for when I was looking to buy a horse, so many of the pics in ads showed a horse with head behind the vertical. Danger signal for me. That wasnt the way I had been taught to ride or bring on  a horse. But as a novice I assumed that for most riders it must be regarded as a selling point?


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## Wheels (19 August 2014)

I see a lot of BTV too, in photos, at shows, it looks so normal here now and people seem to think it looks pretty and I think don't even realise that a horse is BTV.  I'm not talking about really BTV, I think most people can spot that, I'm talking just BTV or broken at the third vertebrae - it is so common place, I wonder how many horses who are ridden like this or who offer this are marked down as BTV when it maybe isn't so obvious but still incorrect


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## JillA (19 August 2014)

There is a dressage trainer and competitor not far from me who often posts pics of her on her horses on FB. All but one I have seen was BTV, which makes me think she doesn't even realise it isn't good. Not hyperflexion (rollkur) but just BTV, so IMHO that means the flexion is being developed from the front not the hind engagement. This may only be snapshots, as she regularly posts scores of approaching 70+, and decent placings/qualifying. Either the photos are a bad example (yet still she posts them!!) or they are like that in tests and the judges don't penalise it. 
Either way not brilliant from someone who regards herself as a dressage trainer.


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## charlie76 (19 August 2014)

To some people my horse might look like he is btv at times but he isn't, if you look at the pics of him his face is on the vertical, its his neck he has shortened. Therefore in our last test we didnt have btv but we did have coming short in the neck in a couple of movements. 
Also, with my boy tension causes him to sometimes actually come behind in his warm up, I ignore him pretty much and just keep trying to activate the hind leg through transitions, shoulder in etc. He usually comes much more up and out in the test ( bar one or two , green at this level, movements) so what you would see in the warm up isnt how he would go in the test.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (19 August 2014)

Op i would be interested to see pics of your horse and videos of how he works. One persons "up free and happy" is another persons *braced over the topline, against the contact and hollow* and that is NO BETTER than being BTV.


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## lizziebell (19 August 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			. One persons "up free and happy" is another persons *braced over the topline, against the contact and hollow* and that is NO BETTER than being BTV.
		
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Agreed.
Wheels; - mentions broken in the third vertebra. This is not exclusive to btv and can also be seen in horses above and on the bit.

As I've already posted, just because it is "seen", does not mean it's being marked favourably in dressage tests.


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## Wheels (19 August 2014)

Yes I agree, broken at the third vertebrae can be above or behind, neither is correct but I would hazard a guess that a lot of people don't realise it's wrong either way


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## Wheels (19 August 2014)

JillA said:



			There is a dressage trainer and competitor not far from me who often posts pics of her on her horses on FB. All but one I have seen was BTV, which makes me think she doesn't even realise it isn't good. Not hyperflexion (rollkur) but just BTV, so IMHO that means the flexion is being developed from the front not the hind engagement. This may only be snapshots, as she regularly posts scores of approaching 70+, and decent placings/qualifying. Either the photos are a bad example (yet still she posts them!!) or they are like that in tests and the judges don't penalise it. 
Either way not brilliant from someone who regards herself as a dressage trainer.
		
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Yes Jill, I see this a lot too - a photo of a trainer and bd rider I saw recently with overbent tense horse and a positive comment from the rider.  This type of thing is what makes me wonder if we are just so used to seeing these things that it looks normal!!


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## paddy (19 August 2014)

If you go back and watch the dressage greats from the 70s, you'll often see long necks and noses slightly forward.  Move to modern day lower level dressage and 'for sale' pics, and you'll often see BTV, and in higher level dressage, short necks and no attempt to lengthen them.

OH's mare still curls back behind the vertical and shortens the neck, as she has power without the strength to cope with it, and he spends a lot of time encouraging her to reach forward with neck and nose.  I've ridden her twice (delighted to have been allowed as she's his 'Precious') and can vouch for the fact that it's not the fact he's hauling on the reins or pulling the nose in.  But she's getting better.


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## Casey76 (19 August 2014)

I think a lot of BTV comes from lack of strength in the horse.  It appears that people want their horse to be working "perfectly" (in inverted commas) very "up" and on the bit even at Intro/Prelim level, rather than the "novice outline" i.e. longer neck, nose in front of the vertical that is requested. 

My mare, who, although is 7, is still learning about contact, went very quickly from being very above the bit 70% of the time to really ducking behind the contact, especially if she finds something difficult or has to concentrate a lot.  It takes quite a lot of subtelty and very precise timing to stop the "duck and drop."  And she will stay tucked btv even with little to no contact as she doesn't yet have the strength to lift through the back, withers and poll for extended periods.


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## Rosesandhorses (19 August 2014)

I think it hugely depends on what level you are competing at and watching - certainly in prelim/novice you are going to get a lot of horses who haven't learnt to work properly and are still trying to understand and find their balance. Similarly you are going to get riders who are less experienced and haven't yet learnt the 'feeling' of a horse working properly. 

From my own experience of riding a wide variety of horses with various schooling issues I have rarely not been pulled up for what I know to be the glaringly obvious - e.g. overbent, not engaging hindquarters etc, but I also feel that if this is ONLY what the judge commented on then it wouldn't be very educational i.e. my current horse is still developing his balance and strength and is learning to take the weight into his hindquarters - this then means at times he falls on the forehand - every judge so far has commented on this but has also commented on positives such as his regular rhythm and willingness. At this level I feel that this is the correct thing to do. 

By no means am I defending riding a horse behind the vertical and it should always be corrected but sometimes in the middle of a dressage test you ride the horse that is presented to you and if that horse goes tense then you mainly concentrate on relaxation at the risk of losing marks elsewhere.


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## ester (19 August 2014)

Also are we talking in test or in warm up or both?

I don't think I see over bent horses much more than I see ones not tracking up and other issues. 

When BDing novice/elem in somerset (so not a million miles from you!) a couple of years ago with a pony inclined to duck behind the bridle as his avoidance tactic everyone I was judged by commented on it when he did it and he was marked down (also when he would head swing which was not as a result of me sawing, but of him not going forwards properly - but might look otherwise to bystanders ). Unaffiliated he seems to have gotten away with it a bit more.


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## JustKickOn (19 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			every prelim/novice/elementary  BD competition i have entered most horses are btv. fact
		
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Massive generalisation there IMO. I was spectating at a BD comp at the weekend watching the prelim and novice riders warm up, and there were only one or two who occasionally ducked BTV. And I know for a fact that one was a green 7 year old who is still working out how to get a leg in each corner consistently, and pops BTV while she regains balance.


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## kate2323 (19 August 2014)

am I one of just a few who see that dressage is moving towards the norm of a pulled in horse ....depressing ....no-one bar a few people seem to see this as a problem....this is the worrying thing!!!!!!!


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## charlie76 (19 August 2014)

My horse isn't pulled in! He might drop btv or come a bit short in the neck in the odd movement but that's simply a lack of balance and confidence at a more advanced level, these moments will go as he gets more established. Im not going to stop competing him though just because of that. The only way to get him more confident is to keep doing it!


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## kate2323 (19 August 2014)

im not criticising you ! just been looking at the overall picture of the way horses seem to be trained....go to any dressage comp and have a look for yourself....


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## Moomin1 (19 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			im not criticising you ! just been looking at the overall picture of the way horses seem to be trained....go to any dressage comp and have a look for yourself....
		
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You see all sorts of training issues at dressage comps, not just btv.  Most of the unaffiliated comps around where I am the standard is really poor, with horses hurried/rushed/unbalanced/noses poking/outward bend, yet they get scored highly. I don't think any of those issues are any less potentially damaging or uncomfortable for the horse than being btv tbh.


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## chestnut cob (19 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			am I one of just a few who see that dressage is moving towards the norm of a pulled in horse ....depressing ....no-one bar a few people seem to see this as a problem....this is the worrying thing!!!!!!!
		
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Well I'm only doing UA Prelim, BE80 and UA 90s but I haven't seen that in those competitions.  At UA Prelim (and when watching Intro and Nov classes either side) I've seen all sorts: horses working correctly for their level, horses above the bit, the odd horse a bit BTV, naughty horses, lazy horses, horses poking their noses and trailing hindlegs... everything, including also some really very nice DR tests.  At BE80 I've seen variations on the above and nice DR tests with most people's horses working primarily along the correct lines.  At UA 90 (and when I've watched BE90 tests), again the DR tests are mostly fine.  In general because it's a higher level there are less nose poking horses and more generally correct horses doing nice tests.

So I'm certainly not seeing that in my area.


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## kate2323 (19 August 2014)

yes I agree....I really think the levels of training need to be more structured and organised....so people actually know what to work towards at all levels...having a beautifully balanced horse like a ballerina should be the norm....light and harmonious....I have seen SO many horses with riders hands low sawing away to get the horse "on the bit" getting the rosettes.....its sad!!


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## JFTDWS (19 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			.I have seen SO many horses with riders hands low sawing away to get the horse "on the bit" getting the rosettes.....its sad!!
		
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Now if you'd posted about riders "see sawing" to get their horse on the vertical (or indeed in the general vicinity of it), I would have been onside from the start.  BTV is usually a lack of strength and a stage of training, in most educated circles.  See sawing and general abuse of contact is a result a lack of education, understanding and common sense and it makes me want to mash the rider's face into a blender...


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## kate2323 (19 August 2014)

sorry should have mentioned that from the start....but it does seem the default position for alot ( NOT all ) ridiers to think btv is the norm and that see-sawing is the way to get there.....


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## Foxford (19 August 2014)

I think I know what the OP is trying to get at - I've seen a lot of lower level horses who are definitely pulled in. You can tell it's the rider as the horse is btv for most of the test, not just passing moments where the balance/engagement has been lost... I guess it used to be more common to see young/inexperienced horses who were a bit nose pokey but that is now "unacceptable" and btv is seen as the lesser of the two evils. We bred a horse who has a tendancy to come btv by himself, but in my opinion this is different to being "pulled in".


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## Tnavas (19 August 2014)

JFTD said:



			Judges have to look at the whole picture, and whilst I agree that some need to be harsher on BTV, I don't think this is a universal problem.
		
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Promise you it is! Often seen on NZ dressage sheets. BTV, some of the less experienced judges miss it or ignore it.

As a writer and a classical minded dressage person it really frustrates me seeing horses BTV. We have one regular rider that rides every horse BTV. Judges are known to tear their hair out when they see this rider with yet another horse BTV. 

As a coach of young riders at Pony Club I am constantly faced with the see saw method. It's hard to get them to understand why it's wrong but those that become more interested in schooling eventually grasp the concept of riding into a quiet contact. 

Same goes for the less experienced adult riders to. They see people do it, find that the horse gives to the pressure and then keep their fingers crossed the back end joins the party.

I have seen vast improvement in the 27 years I've been in New Zealand as we see more international coaches visit.


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## kate2323 (19 August 2014)

please go to a bd comp and look at the novice r and o....more than 50% are btv . Tis is not "correct" but seems to be the norm...


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## kate2323 (19 August 2014)

I;m not really trying to argue just love the debate....really think in the next few years we will see a more harmonious way forward  for grassroots dressage ....free and light.... but all work in progress.... the btv is getting ridiculous now and the fact judges DO mark a "rounder " outline at low level dressage with the good marks.....this needs to change.


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## JFTDWS (19 August 2014)

I enjoy debate too, OP, but you have to be able to support your claims and be open to other perspectives for it to actually count as one 



Tnavas said:



			Promise you it is!
		
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Actually, if you read my post, Tnavas, you'd realise I was saying that judges rewarding BTV is "not a universal problem".  Which you clearly agree with since you stated that it is commonly flagged up on sheets over there.


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## Tnavas (20 August 2014)

JFTD said:



			I enjoy debate too, OP, but you have to be able to support your claims and be open to other perspectives for it to actually count as one 



Actually, if you read my post, Tnavas, you'd realise I was saying that judges rewarding BTV is "not a universal problem".  Which you clearly agree with since you stated that it is commonly flagged up on sheets over there.
		
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Hi - yes I've misunderstood your comment - I was thinking that the BTV was not a universal problem


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## Palindrome (20 August 2014)

I think it's a bit cultural too. I have found English people tend to ride with a very strong contact while French riders have floppy hands (am taking average riders here, not pros).
Not a representative sample, but was a bit shocked when my English friend rode my mare. The mare had her chin nearly touching the chest. This never happens with her own horse.

Otherwise, to me there is nothing wrong with a pokey nose (in front of vertical) as long as horse accepts the bit and gives when rein aid is given. Perhaps I don't have the same definition of "pokey nose"?


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## JillA (20 August 2014)

Yes - let's have a definition of "on the bit"? To me that is taking a light contact and responding to it, wherever the head is - as opposed to "outline" (oh how I hate that term!)


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## Chirmapops (20 August 2014)

JillA said:



			Yes - let's have a definition of "on the bit"? To me that is taking a light contact and responding to it, wherever the head is - as opposed to "outline" (oh how I hate that term!)
		
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Personally I find it helps if you think of the horse as always moving towards a light and elastic contact - that way, in an ideal world, the horse is never above or below the vertical but always achieving the "perfect" state. However, as we all know, horses and riders aren't perfect but most do try very hard to be as good as they can. At all the BD comps I have been to (and I compete regularly, and judge) there have been very few horses going round overbent, and those that do are either momentarily BTV or, usually, clearly not quite strong enough yet to work in an ideal outline, hence why you see it at the lower levels. We are all works in progress, and anyone who says their horse goes in a perfect contact, 100% of the time is, frankly, either deluded or lying. 

Similarly, when I judge, I comment if a horse is dropping behind the vertical, and make a comment in the collectives about how the horse needs to be stepping through from behind into an elastic contact. Every judge I know does this, when my girl evades by dropping behind it's always commented on, and I don't think there's any question of judges shilly shallying around the subject as the OP seems to suggest, they are just trying to make helpful and informative comments under huge time pressures.


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## Pigeon (20 August 2014)

I think BTV is too simplistic a term as well. 

Here my horse is soft and through, but he is overbent.







Here is an older pic with his face on the vertical, but that is because he's bracing his lower neck.







Neither is perfect, but at this stage in his training (early, prelim level!!!) the first frame is healthier. If you look at his legs in the first pic, you can see they move as a pair. In the second pic, the front legs are hitting the ground before the hind, meaning he is on the forehand, despite being in a more upright outline. You can also see an arc from shoulders to poll in the first pic, the second photo he is broken at the 3rd. Lastly, in the first pic you can see that behind his saddle, his back is lifted. In the second photo, there is a dip, meaning he is not working through his back. I think the head isn't the most important thing to look at!

I do think the emphasis on a horse being 'in an outline' is detrimental at the lower levels, because you get heads cranked in, and it is common!! But I have definitely seen a move towards a more holistic approach in the last year or so.


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## kate2323 (20 August 2014)

in the first picture his poll is not the highest point so he is classically not correct....in the 2nd picture i think he is going more correct as he is reaching for the contact....


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## JFTDWS (20 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			in the first picture his poll is not the highest point so he is classically not correct....in the 2nd picture i think he is going more correct as he is reaching for the contact....
		
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The head is not the only important point though - you have to look at the whole animal.  Welcome to JFTD's Holistic Dressage Agency...


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## kate2323 (20 August 2014)

yes I agree...you have to really look at the whole horse...have just spent all afternoon with a Dutch trainer talking out BTV, " up" and the correct muscles we need to develop... there are too many people not understanding the anatomy of the horse out there competing....


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## Pigeon (20 August 2014)

"But he is more classically correct than in the second picture." In the second picture he is in a false frame, and broken at the third, so his poll isn't actually the highest point! Which unfortunately is super easy to do, especially with a snakey thoroughbred neck  He is not strong enough yet to carry himself so that his poll is the highest point, but he is still lifting through his back and arcing his neck. He can do it for about half a circle, or the long side of the arena, and then gets too tired and has to stretch.


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## catroo (20 August 2014)

With those two pictures being a snap shot in time of a horse working at prelim I prefer the overall impression on the first picture. Yes he's over bent but he's got his engine engaged, taking more weight behind and going forward. 

With the second picture he looks pretty but ineffective (no offence pigeon)


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## be positive (20 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			in the first picture his poll is not the highest point so he is classically not correct....in the 2nd picture i think he is going more correct as he is reaching for the contact....
		
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From the first picture he will become strong enough to carry himself he is pushing himself along from behind and going to the next stage of being more up is just a moment away, if continued to work in the way of the second he will become incorrectly muscled up and struggle to progress correctly, you have to look at the engine first and what is happening behind the rider not just what is in front.


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## JFTDWS (20 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			yes I agree...you have to really look at the whole horse...have just spent all afternoon with a Dutch trainer talking out BTV, " up" and the correct muscles we need to develop... there are too many people not understanding the anatomy of the horse out there competing....
		
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I agree, but my standards are probably unfairly high - not everyone has the opportunity to have studied anatomy at vet schools


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## only_me (20 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			in the first picture his poll is not the highest point so he is classically not correct....in the 2nd picture i think he is going more correct as he is reaching for the contact....
		
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But the head is only one part of the horse - the whole point is that the horse works correctly from behind and into the contact, not bracing against and fixing the head.

The horse is working better in the first picture and as strength builds he will come up in front.
The bottom pic horse is 'set' in the frame of being on the bit, but not actually working from behind.

As Pigeon says, horse is working better in first pic but head not quite there, but if continued to work that way the head will come up and will have the strength to take the contact forward. 

Kate a horse can be working correctly but if can't maintain the movement/position etc. due to lack of strength etc. it can come behind the vertical simply by itself!  Not necessarily a hauled in outline.
Plus, the poll might not be at the highest point at prelim - personally, I wouldn't expect that high a frame until working at a much higher level.

Oh, and I know the anatomy of a horse and know the muscles pretty well also. But you can't isolate the working of a muscle in order to strengthen it - they all work as a system. Yes, you can do exercises which are targeted at a particular muscle but the exercise will affect others as well. But unless the engine is working the exercise to build a muscle is a moot point!


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## ihatework (20 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			in the first picture his poll is not the highest point so he is classically not correct....in the 2nd picture i think he is going more correct as he is reaching for the contact....
		
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Dear me. This first picture is the basis for correct way of going down the line. The second picture is braced and of long term detriment.


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## Pigeon (20 August 2014)

catroo said:



			With those two pictures being a snap shot in time of a horse working at prelim I prefer the overall impression on the first picture. Yes he's over bent but he's got his engine engaged, taking more weight behind and going forward. 

With the second picture he looks pretty but ineffective (no offence pigeon)
		
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Exactly!!

My point is, the horse doesn't trot with his head. I think that you should look at the hind end, back and legs first. At prelim level, it's not a finished picture, and I think as long as you focus on lift through the back and stepping under with the hind legs, and hopefully a soft mouth, where the head is shouldn't matter so much, whether IFTV or BTV. 

I find if you block a horse into BTV, it's really reflected in the hind legs, whereas a horse that's behind the vertical because either because it's stretching or not strong enough to be more upright, can still step through.


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## Pigeon (20 August 2014)

Also the term Classical dressage interests me.

Classical is usually taken to mean a Spanish Riding School type approach, but I wonder if the principles you would apply to a young horse with the conformation of a Lipizzaner or other baroque type, isn't really applicable to a thoroughbred. Just because of neck set and conformation.


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## Moomin1 (20 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			in the first picture his poll is not the highest point so he is classically not correct....in the 2nd picture i think he is going more correct as he is reaching for the contact....
		
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You cannot just expect a horse to be 'classically correct' immediately.  It takes a lot of hard work and a long time.  The first pic shows a horse who is working through well and despite being slightly btv is on the right track to becoming strong enough and supple enough to lift up at the poll. You can't expect it to happen overnight.


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## Pigeon (20 August 2014)

I think a lot of this is because directives are so hazy at prelim level. 

You get horses that should really be at novice or above competing at prelim, and others start to feel they need to be asking for an advanced frame when really at that stage, straightness, rhythm, relaxation and an element of responsiveness are all you need. That's assuming the levels of competing reflect the stages of training a dressage horse, which I'm not so sure is strictly true.


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## Casey76 (21 August 2014)

^^^ THIS!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (21 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			yes I agree...you have to really look at the whole horse...have just spent all afternoon with a Dutch trainer talking out BTV, " up" and the correct muscles we need to develop... there are too many people not understanding the anatomy of the horse out there competing....
		
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there are too many people who dont understand how to develop a horse from prelim to GP out there spouting nonsense on the internet........

its deemed politically incorrect to say so but horses have to be submissive to the hand in the same way they are submissive to the leg-you touch and something should damn well happen. I see a lot of klassical nonsense telling you that any horse poking its nose forward is reaching for the contact but its fairly obvious from the tight back and braced neck that if the rider closed the hand the horse would either yaw and brace in the mouth, or hollow completely and invert.

to make a horses supple and strong enough to move in self carriage you gradually teach the horse to move its body around, each section, each mucle independently until you can alter the bend, the flexion, the frame, the gear, the lateral direction, one at a time, without it impacting on anything else-thats self carriage, not being able to throw the reins at its ears and have it stay in the same stuck frame!


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## kate2323 (21 August 2014)

thanks for the lecture..this is exactly the reason I put up the post i the first place to see these kind of posts...this is exactly why there is such a problem with horses....at all levels...have a look at horse and hound dressage pix and see how many horses are totally behind the vertical....no-one actually seems to know the correct way to train...


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## PaddyMonty (21 August 2014)

except you (apparently).


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## MungoMadness (21 August 2014)

Nothing to add really, but as someone who is just starting out in dressage with my 6yo, this has been a really interesting read. Especially when illustrated with photos!


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## only_me (21 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			thanks for the lecture..this is exactly the reason I put up the post i the first place to see these kind of posts...this is exactly why there is such a problem with horses....at all levels...have a look at horse and hound dressage pix and see how many horses are totally behind the vertical....no-one actually seems to know the correct way to train...
		
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Wow, the level of arrogance is outstanding here. 

Nothing like a moment in time to judge years of work...


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## Sheep (21 August 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			to make a horses supple and strong enough to move in self carriage you gradually teach the horse to move its body around, each section, each mucle independently until you can alter the bend, the flexion, the frame, the gear, the lateral direction, one at a time, without it impacting on anything else-thats self carriage, not being able to throw the reins at its ears and have it stay in the same stuck frame!
		
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This is a really useful explanation; thank you.



kate2323 said:



			thanks for the lecture..this is exactly the reason I put up the post i the first place to see these kind of posts...this is exactly why there is such a problem with horses....at all levels...have a look at horse and hound dressage pix and see how many horses are totally behind the vertical....no-one actually seems to know the correct way to train...
		
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I can supply you with numerous pictures of horses with their face on the horizontal if you prefer? 

I don't mean to jibe, but can you really say that your horses are always perfect, all of the time? Might yours appear to be BTV, tucked in, not properly engaged, at times? Can you ever really judge with 100% accuracy without knowing the whole story?


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## Pigeon (21 August 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			its deemed politically incorrect to say so but horses have to be submissive to the hand in the same way they are submissive to the leg-you touch and something should damn well happen. I see a lot of klassical nonsense telling you that any horse poking its nose forward is reaching for the contact but its fairly obvious from the tight back and braced neck that if the rider closed the hand the horse would either yaw and brace in the mouth, or hollow completely and invert.
		
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PS, it took me so long to figure this out! And you are totally right. The BTV thing can go both ways, from people over-jealous with their hands, to people too scared to touch their horse's mouth. (which I was, partially because online and in a lot of texts, people make out that they have a feather light touch on the horse's mouth, right from the beginning, and the horse automatically understands what they want and they and never have to correct them. I wonder how true that really is!)


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## PolarSkye (21 August 2014)

only_me said:



			Nothing like a moment in time to judge years of work...
		
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This.  The thing about dressage is that it's supposed to demonstrate the scales of training - so horses at Prelim shouldn't have to demonstrate the incredible balance, strength, suppleness and self carriage being demonstrated at Grand Prix (to horribly over-simplify things).  Some horses DO duck behind the vertical because they are naturally "curling up" due to weakness rather than being hauled in in front by the rider - mine included at times . . . at Prelim (and even Nov and Ele) it's simply an indicator of where they are in the scales of training/fitness/strength.  A photograph in H&H (or anywhere else for that matter) is a moment in time . . . and is often dependant on the eye of the photographer/editor rather than the judge.  If I believed, for a second, that horses up and down the country did entire (Prelim/Nov and Ele) tests with their chins touching their chests, I'd be agreeing with you - but I don't.  Nor do I believe that judges either condone or don't mark down horses going incorrectly - not the (professional) judges I know and write for.

P


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## slumdog (21 August 2014)

Nothing helpful to add but I've found this a really interesting read  oh, and I'm never posting a pic of mine lol!


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## MungoMadness (21 August 2014)

slumdog said:



			Nothing helpful to add but I've found this a really interesting read  oh, and I'm never posting a pic of mine lol!
		
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Haha, agreed! I was going to do a post of our first prelim last weekend but don't think I will now!


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## slumdog (21 August 2014)

We had our first prelim last weekend as well, our first test read "sympathetically ridden on a difficult horse" he seemed to forget the re-trained part in "re-trained ex-racehorse" lol!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (21 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			thanks for the lecture..this is exactly the reason I put up the post i the first place to see these kind of posts...this is exactly why there is such a problem with horses....at all levels...have a look at horse and hound dressage pix and see how many horses are totally behind the vertical....no-one actually seems to know the correct way to train...
		
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can i ask how many horses you have trained to GP and what level you have competed up to? not because i think you have to have trained to GP to be able to comment, but because once you have done it you will realise how training is not fluid, things come and go, as one thing improves something else goes to rat-****, and that BTV is not the be all and end all.

once you have actually been on that journey, you will understand how silly you sound now.


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## Pigeon (21 August 2014)

Lol, we got eliminated from our first prelim because I couldn't get him inside the white boards!!! So I'm guessing you guys did better than me  You should do a post!


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## PolarSkye (21 August 2014)

Pigeon said:



			Lol, we got eliminated from our first prelim because I couldn't get him inside the white boards!!! So I'm guessing you guys did better than me  You should do a post!
		
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Ha!  That's impressive .  In all Kal's prattiest of pratty moments, he never managed to get eliminated . . . he did once do most of an Intro test in canter, though.

P


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## Pigeon (21 August 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			Ha!  That's impressive .  In all Kal's prattiest of pratty moments, he never managed to get eliminated . . . he did once do most of an Intro test in canter, though.

P
		
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We've been eliminated from four tests. How's that for good going!!!  Hahaha bless him. You have to laugh sometimes don't you, when they get ideas in their head about how dressage should be done...


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## slumdog (21 August 2014)

We did a beautiful piaffe, passage and leg yield in canter (great, but not entirely needed at prelim lol) we also randomly decided that we were a stallion (he isn't) and so we screamed at everything in a 5 mile radius! You know it's been entertaining when you grind to a halt, salute, look at the judge and she's laughing! He's so embarrassing!


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## ihatework (21 August 2014)

And just to add to OP ...
You can get you picture in H&H for, as an example, a win at 70%.

What does 70% equate to? 'Fairly good'. That means there is a decent amount of room for improvement. All horses will have strengths and weaknesses, but the result at a competition just means that you were better than the other combinations entered that day. It doesn't mean perfection.

ETA - OP what level have you ridden to? Would you be willing to put your money where your mouth is an post a video of you riding a horse that you deem to be correctly trained for their age/level?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (21 August 2014)

CS got techincally eliminated 4 or 5 times in his first test, for "episodes of prolonged resistance" but the judge kindly lets us continue and make him finish as he was the last one of the day in that ring. He kept napping to the collecting ring and rearing in the corners, it took us 20mins to do N22!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Pigeon (21 August 2014)

Ahahaha oh don't you adore them!!! I'm so glad I'm not the only one!!!


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## PolarSkye (21 August 2014)

slumdog said:



			We did a beautiful piaffe, passage and leg yield in canter (great, but not entirely needed at prelim lol) we also randomly decided that we were a stallion (he isn't) and so we screamed at everything in a 5 mile radius! You know it's been entertaining when you grind to a halt, salute, look at the judge and she's laughing! He's so embarrassing!
		
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We had one of those - judge was in fits of giggles . . . asked me if he was an OTTB four-year-old . . . he was 13 at the time.  Z's face when she had to give and retake the reins was a picture - she was bricking it and we all thought he would end up back at the lorry park (from where he had tried to escape earlier in the day by breaking the bailer twine and legging it down the drive - watched by the judge).  

Horses are a fantastic leveller . . . .

P


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## PolarSkye (21 August 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			CS got techincally eliminated 4 or 5 times in his first test, for "episodes of prolonged resistance" but the judge kindly lets us continue and make him finish as he was the last one of the day in that ring. He kept napping to the collecting ring and rearing in the corners, it took us 20mins to do N22!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
		
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LOL .  That's impressive.

P


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## PolarSkye (21 August 2014)

ihatework said:



			And just to add to OP ...
You can get you picture in H&H for, as an example, a win at 70%.

What does 70% equate to? 'Fairly good'. That means there is a decent amount of room for improvement. All horses will have strengths and weaknesses, but the result at a competition just means that you were better than the other combinations entered that day. It doesn't mean perfection.
		
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Excellent point.

P


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (21 August 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			LOL .  That's impressive.

P
		
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did him the world of good to be made to keep going and lovely judge even marked the bits we did in a vaguely forward fashion. he's never been that bad again so it obviously made him realise im as bloody minded as he is!


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## Wheels (21 August 2014)

I'm expecting something similar in my horses first test, probably no rearing but certainly napping and a lot of shouting to other horses lol


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## _GG_ (21 August 2014)

JillA said:



			There is a dressage trainer and competitor not far from me who often posts pics of her on her horses on FB. All but one I have seen was BTV, which makes me think she doesn't even realise it isn't good. Not hyperflexion (rollkur) but just BTV, so IMHO that means the flexion is being developed from the front not the hind engagement. This may only be snapshots, as she regularly posts scores of approaching 70+, and decent placings/qualifying. Either the photos are a bad example (yet still she posts them!!) or they are like that in tests and the judges don't penalise it. 
Either way not brilliant from someone who regards herself as a dressage trainer.
		
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The judges can easily penalise it and the horse still score a great mark overall. It is just a part of it, not all of it. If a test is ridden accurately and the horse is willing, forward, supple, etc...there is no reason that losing marks for BTV would drop it out of the placings. 



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			Op i would be interested to see pics of your horse and videos of how he works. One persons "up free and happy" is another persons *braced over the topline, against the contact and hollow* and that is NO BETTER than being BTV.
		
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Absolutely. I listed to someone over the course of a year say how correct her horse was because he never ducked behind the vertical. When I finally saw them working, the horse was so braced and stifled in its movement I struggled to find the right way to explain why I wanted to change things to her. 



kate2323 said:



			am I one of just a few who see that dressage is moving towards the norm of a pulled in horse ....depressing ....no-one bar a few people seem to see this as a problem....this is the worrying thing!!!!!!!
		
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No, lots of people "see" this and many discussions have been had on this forum, but most people are not quite so one track minded. People, generally but not always, people who have trained horses up through the levels, understand how training a horse actually works and that even at Inter level...what you are seeing is not a finished product. BTV is one of the lease worrying carriages you can see to be honest as there are so so many perfectly valid reasons for it. 



Moomin1 said:



			You see all sorts of training issues at dressage comps, not just btv.  Most of the unaffiliated comps around where I am the standard is really poor, with horses hurried/rushed/unbalanced/noses poking/outward bend, yet they get scored highly. I don't think any of those issues are any less potentially damaging or uncomfortable for the horse than being btv tbh.
		
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And it's not just dressage. 



kate2323 said:



			yes I agree....I really think the levels of training need to be more structured and organised....so people actually know what to work towards at all levels...having a beautifully balanced horse like a ballerina should be the norm....light and harmonious....I have seen SO many horses with riders hands low sawing away to get the horse "on the bit" getting the rosettes.....its sad!!
		
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There is a very structured and well established scale of training known the world over and followed by all sorts of "types" of trainer. The availability of knowledge and support in training is not lacking in any way. What is happening though is that more people are able to afford their own horse now, afford to go to competitions, but not necessarily afford to keep having correct lessons and coaching, so there are noe many many riders out there, trying to replicate what they see at the top level, but without the knowledge and experience to do it properly, so the shortcuts are taken.



JFTD said:



			Now if you'd posted about riders "see sawing" to get their horse on the vertical (or indeed in the general vicinity of it), I would have been onside from the start.  BTV is usually a lack of strength and a stage of training, in most educated circles.  See sawing and general abuse of contact is a result a lack of education, understanding and common sense and it makes me want to mash the rider's face into a blender...
		
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Me too...See-Sawing is always bad, never acceptable. BTV is not always bad, sometimes very necessary and a totally different issue IMO.



kate2323 said:



			I;m not really trying to argue just love the debate....really think in the next few years we will see a more harmonious way forward  for grassroots dressage ....free and light.... but all work in progress.... the btv is getting ridiculous now and the fact judges DO mark a "rounder " outline at low level dressage with the good marks.....this needs to change.
		
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I think in order to make such statements, one needs to really, deeply understand the differences in BTV by being able to look at the whole horse. Grassroots dressage is non existent to me. All horses, regardless of breeding, training and the unknown or Carl Hester type riders on their backs have to move up the very same ladder of progression. I would be far more inclined to give higher marks to a soft and supple horse that ducks occasionally behind or carries a little BTV than a horse who is on or above the vertical but braced, hollow and tense. The latter is far more detrimental in the long run. 



Pigeon said:



			I think BTV is too simplistic a term as well. 

Here my horse is soft and through, but he is overbent.







Here is an older pic with his face on the vertical, but that is because he's bracing his lower neck.







Neither is perfect, but at this stage in his training (early, prelim level!!!) the first frame is healthier. If you look at his legs in the first pic, you can see they move as a pair. In the second pic, the front legs are hitting the ground before the hind, meaning he is on the forehand, despite being in a more upright outline. You can also see an arc from shoulders to poll in the first pic, the second photo he is broken at the 3rd. Lastly, in the first pic you can see that behind his saddle, his back is lifted. In the second photo, there is a dip, meaning he is not working through his back. I think the head isn't the most important thing to look at!

I do think the emphasis on a horse being 'in an outline' is detrimental at the lower levels, because you get heads cranked in, and it is common!! But I have definitely seen a move towards a more holistic approach in the last year or so.
		
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First picture shows harmony, suppleness and relaxation. Not perfect, but far better than the second photo which you have explained well enough already. Yes, BTV is far too simplistic!



kate2323 said:



			in the first picture his poll is not the highest point so he is classically not correct....in the 2nd picture i think he is going more correct as he is reaching for the contact....
		
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It is far from classically correct for any horse to be working poll high through the early stages of training. I don't expect to start seeing truly poll high head carriage until Elementary/Medium level...you just can't expect it until the horse is developed, balanced and strong enough to create that frame in self carriage. The second picture is so far from correct that I'm afraid you thinking it is is exposing a lack of genuine knowledge about the motion of a horse. Being on the bit, above the bit or behind the bit has very very little to do with the head. It also has very little to do with the hind end in a lot of cases as well...it has everything to do with a horses back and the second picture shows that beautifully. The back is not correct so it doesn't matter what anything else looks like. I judge would see that and mark the second picture far worse than the first.


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## _GG_ (21 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			yes I agree...you have to really look at the whole horse...have just spent all afternoon with a Dutch trainer talking out BTV, " up" and the correct muscles we need to develop... there are too many people not understanding the anatomy of the horse out there competing....
		
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Again, and I am only saying these things as it genuinely sounds like you want to learn...I'm really not having a go...just pointing out as plainly as I can..."UP" has very little to do with the head and neck. It also has very little to do with the shouders. It is in the back. If the head and neck are "up" but the back is not correct, again, not good for the horse and not going to create a correct picture. As for advice on correct training...be careful which Dutch trainers you take advice from. There are obviously exceptions, but the Dutch aren't famed for their "correct" training of dressage horses.



Pigeon said:



			"But he is more classically correct than in the second picture." In the second picture he is in a false frame, and broken at the third, so his poll isn't actually the highest point! Which unfortunately is super easy to do, especially with a snakey thoroughbred neck  He is not strong enough yet to carry himself so that his poll is the highest point, but he is still lifting through his back and arcing his neck. He can do it for about half a circle, or the long side of the arena, and then gets too tired and has to stretch.
		
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And that is how it is done. Bit by bit and with patience.



Moomin1 said:



			You cannot just expect a horse to be 'classically correct' immediately.  It takes a lot of hard work and a long time.  The first pic shows a horse who is working through well and despite being slightly btv is on the right track to becoming strong enough and supple enough to lift up at the poll. You can't expect it to happen overnight.
		
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Absolutely...If you expect a horse to hold a poll high frame all of the time, you are doing it a great disservice. Each head carriage/frame works different muscles and it is detrimental to the horse to force those muscles to work constantly. It is far better to allow periods of training where the frame changes regularly so as not to fatigue any set of muscles. 



Pigeon said:



			I think a lot of this is because directives are so hazy at prelim level. 

You get horses that should really be at novice or above competing at prelim, and others start to feel they need to be asking for an advanced frame when really at that stage, straightness, rhythm, relaxation and an element of responsiveness are all you need. That's assuming the levels of competing reflect the stages of training a dressage horse, which I'm not so sure is strictly true.
		
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They should....they don't always 



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			there are too many people who dont understand how to develop a horse from prelim to GP out there spouting nonsense on the internet........

its deemed politically incorrect to say so but horses have to be submissive to the hand in the same way they are submissive to the leg-you touch and something should damn well happen. I see a lot of klassical nonsense telling you that any horse poking its nose forward is reaching for the contact but its fairly obvious from the tight back and braced neck that if the rider closed the hand the horse would either yaw and brace in the mouth, or hollow completely and invert.

to make a horses supple and strong enough to move in self carriage you gradually teach the horse to move its body around, each section, each mucle independently until you can alter the bend, the flexion, the frame, the gear, the lateral direction, one at a time, without it impacting on anything else-thats self carriage, not being able to throw the reins at its ears and have it stay in the same stuck frame!
		
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Excellent, excellent post!!!



kate2323 said:



			thanks for the lecture..this is exactly the reason I put up the post i the first place to see these kind of posts...this is exactly why there is such a problem with horses....at all levels...have a look at horse and hound dressage pix and see how many horses are totally behind the vertical....no-one actually seems to know the correct way to train...
		
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I don't think that was a lecture...I think that was a highly experienced rider explaining something in a very simple and understandable way.

I think it is a gross erroneous generalisation to say that no-one seems to know the correct way to train. Many, many people do. The trick is being able to see past the picture and understand the motion. 



PolarSkye said:



			This.  The thing about dressage is that it's supposed to demonstrate the scales of training - so horses at Prelim shouldn't have to demonstrate the incredible balance, strength, suppleness and self carriage being demonstrated at Grand Prix (to horribly over-simplify things).  Some horses DO duck behind the vertical because they are naturally "curling up" due to weakness rather than being hauled in in front by the rider - mine included at times . . . at Prelim (and even Nov and Ele) it's simply an indicator of where they are in the scales of training/fitness/strength.  A photograph in H&H (or anywhere else for that matter) is a moment in time . . . and is often dependant on the eye of the photographer/editor rather than the judge.  If I believed, for a second, that horses up and down the country did entire (Prelim/Nov and Ele) tests with their chins touching their chests, I'd be agreeing with you - but I don't.  Nor do I believe that judges either condone or don't mark down horses going incorrectly - not the (professional) judges I know and write for.

P
		
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Agreed.




Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			can i ask how many horses you have trained to GP and what level you have competed up to? not because i think you have to have trained to GP to be able to comment, but because once you have done it you will realise how training is not fluid, things come and go, as one thing improves something else goes to rat-****, and that BTV is not the be all and end all.

once you have actually been on that journey, you will understand how silly you sound now.
		
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I'll go further than that...sometimes BTV can be a very very beneficial thing to the horse. Another good post 



ihatework said:



			And just to add to OP ...
You can get you picture in H&H for, as an example, a win at 70%.

What does 70% equate to? 'Fairly good'. That means there is a decent amount of room for improvement. All horses will have strengths and weaknesses, but the result at a competition just means that you were better than the other combinations entered that day. It doesn't mean perfection.

ETA - OP what level have you ridden to? Would you be willing to put your money where your mouth is an post a video of you riding a horse that you deem to be correctly trained for their age/level?
		
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Excellent post!



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			did him the world of good to be made to keep going and lovely judge even marked the bits we did in a vaguely forward fashion. he's never been that bad again so it obviously made him realise im as bloody minded as he is!
		
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I wanted to end on this...because this is what training is all about when you are the one actually doing it. Good horses aren't born trained. They are developed over time by riders that are willing to put in the work, get the coaching, spend the hours and bleed teh sweat and stick at it when horses....as they invariably always do...have other ideas. It's not about the end goal...it can't be as the overwhelmingly vast majority of horses will not reach GP level. It is about the journey and PS & NM's horses are well on their way to getting there because they are doing it properly. 

BTV is not always bad. It is sometimes very beneficial and judging a horse and its rider by the angle of the head alone is a very naive, foolish and hurtful thing to do. 

OP...use the search function and look for posts about a horse called Armas. You will see that even older horses sometimes have a very long way to go. Riders have to sometimes spend years undoing the bad work of others. Horses develop their own evasions and sometimes, actively riding a horse BTV can be the only way to encourage it to accept the contact and learn to take it forwards. 

Finally, I will go out on a bit of a limb. I can honestly say, without exception, that every horse I have ever trained that has been at Elementary level or below has become more supple, more relaxed and actually learned how to lift through the back and carry itself by being allowed to dip BTV in a open frame. It frees the shoulder, releases the trapezius muscles and allows the back to lift. In my honest opinion, a horse that was never allowed to dip behind would be far worse off than a horse that was.


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## _GG_ (21 August 2014)

Ooops, didn't realise I got quite so "into" that, lol. Oh well...it's been a while since my last mega post


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (21 August 2014)

super post tho GG


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## _GG_ (21 August 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			super post tho GG 

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I'm amazed you got through it. You deserve a medal


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## HufflyPuffly (21 August 2014)

_GG_ said:



			Ooops, didn't realise I got quite so "into" that, lol. Oh well...it's been a while since my last mega post 

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Nowt to add but love your mega post's 

x x


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## _GG_ (21 August 2014)

AlexHyde said:



			Nowt to add but love your mega post's 

x x
		
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And you are the perfect example of a rider with a very talented but quirky horse who has had to learn how no one rule fits all.  xxx


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## meardsall_millie (21 August 2014)

Absolutely blimmin' fantastic post GG. If they're all that good they can be as long as you want!!


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## HufflyPuffly (21 August 2014)

_GG_ said:



			And you are the perfect example of a rider with a very talented but quirky horse who has had to learn how no one rule fits all.  xxx
		
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haha there is that, she does it all, behind the vertical, in front of the vertical, quite nicely on the vertical but with mouth wide open, vertical waving to the judges (thankfully this was a brief phase for her!) etc. 

To first sort our contact 'issues' out I had to stop pussy footing around it and actually take hold. I had to stop letting her evade me and then me dropping the contact, this invariably led to moments of btv before she learnt to take the contact forward. Without me keeping a contact she would never have learnt to keep hold either!
Sorry a simplified version and I'm not saying we're holding/leaning on each other just that the contact is a two way communication.

There have been times, as have been said, that going btv has massively improved her with the aim of it strengthening her rather than it being the end result. Currently we are using a lower longer frame for canter work as she isn't quite strong enough for the more advanced 'up' frame, however if someone thought that it is what we want as we work up the levels I'd think that they've never had to train their own horses!

There are plenty of frankly hideous pics of us out there but I'd hope people would think that they were showing just a moment in time. With regards judging, we don't tend to get btv comments but do get a lot of 'inconsistant contact' and 'tense' comments, even in tests which are high 60%'s touching 70%, the rest of the work was nice so our scores were good but we still lost marks for the contact and frame.

Sorry _GG_ you set me off, I'll bow out with my mumbled ramblings now 

x x


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## _GG_ (21 August 2014)

AlexHyde said:



			haha there is that, she does it all, behind the vertical, in front of the vertical, quite nicely on the vertical but with mouth wide open, vertical waving to the judges (thankfully this was a brief phase for her!) etc. 

To first sort our contact 'issues' out I had to stop pussy footing around it and actually take hold. I had to stop letting her evade me and then me dropping the contact, this invariably led to moments of btv before she learnt to take the contact forward. Without me keeping a contact she would never have learnt to keep hold either!
Sorry a simplified version and I'm not saying we're holding/leaning on each other just that the contact is a two way communication.

There have been times, as have been said, that going btv has massively improved her with the aim of it strengthening her rather than it being the end result. Currently we are using a lower longer frame for canter work as she isn't quite strong enough for the more advanced 'up' frame, however if someone thought that it is what we want as we work up the levels I'd think that they've never had to train their own horses!

There are plenty of frankly hideous pics of us out there but I'd hope people would think that they were showing just a moment in time. With regards judging, we don't tend to get btv comments but do get a lot of 'inconsistant contact' and 'tense' comments, even in tests which are high 60%'s touching 70%, the rest of the work was nice so our scores were good but we still lost marks for the contact and frame.

Sorry _GG_ you set me off, I'll bow out with my mumbled ramblings now 

x x
		
Click to expand...

Makes perfect sense. The reason I directed the OP to the Armas threads was because he was a perfect example of a very willing and lovely horse who needed a lot of work to undo what had previously been done. To James' credit, he never just accepted and has tried many options until he has now, finally found the one that works with a member of this forum who is doing a fantastic job. The thing with his videos is that you can break it down and actually see him become more confident when he is ridden with contact behind the vertical...a place where he put himself as an evasion. 

I would just like to OP to see and understand that what you see in a horse is not necessarily, in fact, is hardly ever what the rider is actually working towards, but just a period of training on the way to trying to get there.


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## PolarSkye (21 August 2014)

_GG_ said:



			I would just like to OP to see and understand that what you see in a horse is not necessarily, in fact, is hardly ever what the rider is actually working towards, but just a period of training on the way to trying to get there.
		
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Perfect sense - and concisely communicated.  Thank you.

P


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## Tnavas (21 August 2014)

Great post GG with great information.

Wish I could come to understand how to do the multiple quotes!


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## _GG_ (21 August 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Great post GG with great information.

Wish I could come to understand how to do the multiple quotes! 

Click to expand...


To the right of the "Reply with Quote" option in the bottom right of the reply box, there is a small red quote mark box with a + sign next to it. Just click that on all the posts you want to quote and on the final post you want to quote, hit reply with quote. Then, when you reply, you'll see them all, each starting with [/QUOTE] and ending with [/QUOTE] 

Just put your reply to each after the end quote of one and before the start quote of the next xx


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## Tnavas (21 August 2014)

_GG_ said:



			To the right of the "Reply with Quote" option in the bottom right of the reply box, there is a small red quote mark box with a + sign next to it. Just click that on all the posts you want to quote and on the final post you want to quote, hit reply with quote. Then, when you reply, you'll see them all, each starting with
		
Click to expand...

 and ending with [/QUOTE] 

Just put your reply to each after the end quote of one and before the start quote of the next xx[/QUOTE]

Thank you


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## Tnavas (21 August 2014)

Double post


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## kate2323 (21 August 2014)

GG's post are great...agree..princess sparkle ...mmm think there is a alot more bling there than actual knowledge....


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## JFTDWS (21 August 2014)

Alot of Bling?  I'd like to see that!  Something like this?


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## kate2323 (21 August 2014)

kind of !!!


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## slumdog (21 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			GG's post are great...agree..princess sparkle ...mmm think there is a alot more bling there than actual knowledge....
		
Click to expand...

Wow.


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## shortstuff99 (21 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			GG's post are great...agree..princess sparkle ...mmm think there is a alot more bling there than actual knowledge....
		
Click to expand...

So I'm a little bit confused here, GG is knowledgable but PS not even though GG agreed with PS? Hmmmm...


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## _GG_ (21 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			GG's post are great...agree..princess sparkle ...mmm think there is a alot more bling there than actual knowledge....
		
Click to expand...

Um, thank you....but have you missed that I have agreed with every word PS has said on this thread. Her knowledge far outweighs most and I include myself in that. I think that post was entirely unnecessary and I had a degree of understanding for you...until now. 

It seems I can still be shocked by the behaviour of humans!


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## BobbyMondeo (21 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			GG's post are great...agree..princess sparkle ...mmm think there is a alot more bling there than actual knowledge....
		
Click to expand...

Wow rude.... looking for an argument?


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## kate2323 (21 August 2014)

sorry but you were polite and  PS attacked me.. fact.


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## JFTDWS (21 August 2014)

BobbyMondeo said:



			Wow rude.... looking for an argument?
		
Click to expand...

Evidently.

Seriously people - do not feed the troll.  Mock it from a distance.

Nobody could be this dense - this must be an axe to grind...


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## ester (21 August 2014)

clearly you are politeness itself... 

or have an different concept of what the word 'attack' means to other people.


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## slumdog (21 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			sorry but you were polite and  PS attacked me.. fact.
		
Click to expand...

Where did she attack you? She's one of the most knowledgable people on here, and is very passionate about her sport. She is also an incredible rider. I think your personal attack sounds very childish.


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## Goldenstar (21 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			GG's post are great...agree..princess sparkle ...mmm think there is a alot more bling there than actual knowledge....
		
Click to expand...

Well I was enjoying this thread until that .


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## _GG_ (21 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			sorry but you were polite and  PS attacked me.. fact.
		
Click to expand...

No. That's not fact, it's perception and only you have perceived PS's posts to be attacking. In actual fact, they were just blunt...but quite rightly so I think. Please rethink as you owe PS an apology. If you are a genuine newbie, and have no personal vendetta against her, apologise for a foolish comment and start afresh, otherwise you create a very unpleasant persona for yourself. This place can be amazing, but not when we post erroneous statements and get rude just because others lay the truth bare.


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## Goldenstar (21 August 2014)

Maybe Its a case of BTV discuss as long as you agree with me .


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## kate2323 (21 August 2014)

I wasnt making any personal comment  - I just asked for an intelligent debate...but i am sorry but PS said about me "there are too many people who dont understand how to develop a horse from prelim to GP out there spouting nonsense on the internet........"
This is not a very nice comment and totally not in the spirit of what I was debating...
there is such a large school of thought of BTV and training and I am a classicist who trains a very sensitive way .. I was only asking for a debate...I have taken the personal attacks as I still believe in the spirit of this discussion and obviously some people get very worked up but honestly i am chilled and relaxed ....just want to see the  general consensus ....and so  far have deduced most people are very much on the defensive and seem to actually condone btv....
 - that is approve or sanction it   with reluctance!


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## ester (21 August 2014)

That was a general observation from PS... and totally true! It wasn't personal at all!!??

It is relevant what you do with your own horses, I am but a mere novice compared to many on this thread and I can tell you which ones I would absorb as much advice as they could give me from. (I won't though).


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## JFTDWS (21 August 2014)

Well yes, that was rude of PS...  Or perhaps the precedent was set by this:




			there are too many people not understanding the anatomy of the horse out there competing....
		
Click to expand...


Damn it.  Didn't mean to do that.  Do not feed the troll.


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## ester (21 August 2014)

JFTD said:



			Damn it.  Didn't mean to do that.  Do not feed the troll.
		
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*tuts 

Be a shame that _GG_ had gone to all that trouble and quoting for a troll, I think the rest of us appreciated at least though .


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## kate2323 (21 August 2014)

do not feed the troll? what kind of educated debate is that?


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## JFTDWS (21 August 2014)

If one ignores the OP's comments, Ester, I think it's been a fab thread...

(Not least for my inspired Douglas Adams ref and the pic of the Alot.  I'm proud of those, even if I'm being ignored  )


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## Moomin1 (21 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			I wasnt making any personal comment  - I just asked for an intelligent debate...but i am sorry but PS said about me "there are too many people who dont understand how to develop a horse from prelim to GP out there spouting nonsense on the internet........"
This is not a very nice comment and totally not in the spirit of what I was debating...
there is such a large school of thought of BTV and training and I am a classicist who trains a very sensitive way .. I was only asking for a debate...I have taken the personal attacks as I still believe in the spirit of this discussion and obviously some people get very worked up but honestly i am chilled and relaxed ....just want to see the  general consensus ....and so  far have deduced most people are very much on the defensive and seem to actually condone btv....
 - that is approve or sanction it   with reluctance!
		
Click to expand...

Err ok.  I have to be honest, the first thing I thought when I read your original post was that you seemed quite aggressive in your posting style and attitude.


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## Goldenstar (21 August 2014)

JFTD said:



			If one ignores the OP's comments, Ester, I think it's been a fab thread...

(Not least for my inspired Douglas Adams ref and the pic of the Alot.  I'm proud of those, even if I'm being ignored  )
		
Click to expand...

You are never ignored .


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## kate2323 (21 August 2014)

that is your perception and nothing to do with my post sorry....that is the way I write.....


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## ester (21 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			do not feed the troll? what kind of educated debate is that?
		
Click to expand...

I think your comments to PS has already rather spoilt any educated debate that was occurring between other posters.


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## _GG_ (21 August 2014)

ester said:



			That was a general observation from PS... and totally true! It wasn't personal at all!!??
		
Click to expand...




JFTD said:



			Well yes, that was rude of PS...  Or perhaps the precedent was set by this:




Damn it.  Didn't mean to do that.  Do not feed the troll.
		
Click to expand...

Yes and yes. 

And kate2323, I understand you are a classicist, but to adhere to any method to the point of discounting any other possibilities is detrimental to the training of any horse. BTV is not being condoned...rather it is being understood as something that is not actually always wrong or bad. 

Also, as a classicist you must know that the work of some of the "masters" leaves a lot to be desired and some arguable far worse than occasionally allowing a horse BTV. 

That said, I agree with the basic point that it's not something that anyone should work towards...but it is, without doubt not without its place in the kind and sympathetic training of the horse.


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## JFTDWS (21 August 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			You are never ignored .
		
Click to expand...

Look you, I'm a drama queen and a show off.  Give me the attention I deserve!

(GG's agreeing with stuff I say - this is high praise indeed!)


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## kate2323 (21 August 2014)

oh please ...i don't even know Ps or what he or she does..... I was just  reacting to her comment to me! this has now ruined your debate? really???


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## slumdog (21 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			that is your perception and nothing to do with my post sorry....that is the way I write.....
		
Click to expand...

Couldn't you say the same about PS? Bit ironic don't you think.


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## HufflyPuffly (21 August 2014)

Ok well this thread has taken an odd turn and I was all ready for posting some terrible btv pics of us to show a moment in time...
*wanders off sulking at the random troll*
I mean how can anyone have too much bling?!?
x x


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## ester (21 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			oh please ...i don't even know Ps or what he or she does..... I was just  reacting to her comment to me! this has now ruined your debate? really???
		
Click to expand...

Because you made the tone of the thread very personal and attacking- about a comment that wasn't even made 'to you' as I said, just a correct observation of the internet.

and yes agree, slumdog, funny how it is ok for one but not the other...


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## ester (21 August 2014)

AlexHyde said:



			Ok well this thread has taken an odd turn and I was all ready for posting some terrible btv pics of us to show a moment in time...
*wanders off sulking at the random troll*
I mean how can anyone have too much bling?!?
x x
		
Click to expand...

Well obviously you can only post them if they come complete with sparkles


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## JFTDWS (21 August 2014)

AlexHyde said:



			I mean how can anyone have too much bling?!?
x x
		
Click to expand...

"Too much bling"

Definition:  when bling causes chafing between the blinged horse's legs in trot...


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## kate2323 (21 August 2014)

do you not think we all need to get back to the actual point of my initial debate and debate why SO many horses  from prelim upwards are ridden with heads pulled in so they are obviously  btv?  This is incorrect but continues to seen as the norm ...
look at any h and h and bd pix and you will see  ( interestingly Jane Kidd who  I think is wonderful points out a horse in btv in her article on self carriage) .... debate this please and please stop getting so personal ...


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## ester (21 August 2014)

which leaves the wider beasts at a bling advantage  Now I understand why highlands


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## JFTDWS (21 August 2014)

You can't tell me what to do...  You're not my mother!


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## JFTDWS (21 August 2014)

ester said:



			which leaves the wider beasts at a bling advantage  Now I understand why highlands 

Click to expand...

More breadth to bling too.  Looks amazeballs in his cloak of many crystals, I can tell you!


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## kate2323 (21 August 2014)

"Because you made the tone of the thread very personal and attacking- about a comment that wasn't even made 'to you' as I said, just a correct observation of the internet."
really ? I dont think so....It is not in my nature to be " very personal and attacking" This is not language I like so please stop making this debate into something it is not ester....


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## ester (21 August 2014)

Thread control.... ermmm... doesn't work like that usually... 

Many have also said isn't the norm and they don't see all the hundreds of horses you see doing it in a detrimental manner/pinned in by their riders.


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## HufflyPuffly (21 August 2014)

ester said:



			Well obviously you can only post them if they come complete with sparkles 

Click to expand...

Hmm not sure a patent noseband and blingy browband will be quite enough, sigh, no one will get to see our rubbishness now!



JFTD said:



			"Too much bling"

Definition:  when bling causes chafing between the blinged horse's legs in trot...
		
Click to expand...

Ah I thought it was when it blinded the judge rendering them incapable of scoring you tens on bling'ness alone, regardless of where the horses head is positioned?

x x


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## ester (21 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			GG's post are great...agree..princess sparkle ...mmm *think there is a alot more bling there than actual knowledge....*

Click to expand...

...

not very personal?


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## Wheels (21 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			GG's post are great...agree..princess sparkle ...mmm think there is a alot more bling there than actual knowledge....
		
Click to expand...

This is a disgusting comment.  There is a lot of bling yes.... But knowledge outweighs even that.

I am trying to follow a classical path too (yet to find a better term as I don't think anyone's truly defined classical yet) but you are giving the rest of us a bad name.  If you cannot be nice then just be quiet. 

I'm all for debate, I don't like BTV either and certainly wouldnt ask my horse to go there and immediately ask him for something different if he puts himself there but I will not discount or try to discredit other riders, especially ones who have done so well as ms sparkle


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## _GG_ (21 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			do you not think we all need to get back to the actual point of my initial debate and debate why SO many horses  from prelim upwards are ridden with heads pulled in so they are obviously  btv?  This is incorrect but continues to seen as the norm ...
look at any h and h and bd pix and you will see  ( interestingly Jane Kidd who  I think is wonderful points out a horse in btv in her article on self carriage) .... debate this please and please stop getting so personal ...
		
Click to expand...

I'm happy to debate and as I have said previously, you are assuming that the horses "are being pulled" behind the vertical. This is no doubt true for some, but by no means all and yes judges do mark it down, but as explained previously, no one thing can be marked so low, often enough to create low marks where the rest of the work is good. A BTV horse is not always a horse going badly.


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## Casey76 (21 August 2014)

This is my mare at the beginning not long after I bought her...

For as many moments we had like this:






We had 3x as many like:






and






and






Having said that... I prefer the one where she is slightly btw than this one:






Where the head is more correct, but she isn't working from behind properly.


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## Goldenstar (21 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			I wasnt making any personal comment  - I just asked for an intelligent debate...but i am sorry but PS said about me "there are too many people who dont understand how to develop a horse from prelim to GP out there spouting nonsense on the internet........"
This is not a very nice comment and totally not in the spirit of what I was debating...
there is such a large school of thought of BTV and training and I am a classicist who trains a very sensitive way .. I was only asking for a debate...I have taken the personal attacks as I still believe in the spirit of this discussion and obviously some people get very worked up but honestly i am chilled and relaxed ....just want to see the  general consensus ....and so  far have deduced most people are very much on the defensive and seem to actually condone btv....
 - that is approve or sanction it   with reluctance!
		
Click to expand...

Arrrr passive aggressive now.
I don't see anyone on the defensive these things are about perception there's a lot of people who post on here very confident and happy in their training and who enjoy a good debate.
I could enter Into debate about how I worry about people training horses who are fixated on the position of the horses head to the exclusion of other things that matter far more but I will refrain .
And there  are too many people who don't understand how to develop horses I don't see how that can possibly be seen to a controversial thing to say or a personal attack except by the highly sensitive .


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## charlie76 (21 August 2014)

I have plenty of pictures of my horse btv during his training, however, most, not all of the time, its just a phase that happens when learning new movements. I would much prefer a horse slightly btv and ' through' than one out to a contact with a stuff back and neck.
I had many many trainers tell me I needed to get my horse, who is naturally short on the neck , up and out. I did this to the detriment of his training as he just became stiff and tight. Now I dontbworry about him being a bit deep and btv anymore as long as he is connected, using BKS back and hind legs and allowing me to ride him from leg to hand. He then comes up and out Toma soft contact and back through transitions and general lateral work, collection and extension. 
The second he stiffens and tense we return to what you would prob refer to as btv, where as I call it soft, deep and round.


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## Kit-kat (21 August 2014)

I've just  found this debate and have followed all the threads..very interesting..
does seem though that you put your head in the firing line ( kate2323 ) to mention something that happens alot and the people that obviously  disagree  love to shout you down!
some of the language..."disgusting" " troll " ..well you h and h forum people should be ashamed of yourselves....


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## Goldenstar (21 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			do you not think we all need to get back to the actual point of my initial debate and debate why SO many horses  from prelim upwards are ridden with heads pulled in so they are obviously  btv?  This is incorrect but continues to seen as the norm ...
look at any h and h and bd pix and you will see  ( interestingly Jane Kidd who  I think is wonderful points out a horse in btv in her article on self carriage) .... debate this please and please stop getting so personal ...
		
Click to expand...

No I don't think we need to get back to the debate.


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## JFTDWS (21 August 2014)

BTV - shoot me now!







Where as Daemon prefers to:

put your head right in 







out







shake it all about


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## Kit-kat (21 August 2014)

you need to raise your hands alot higher..sit up straight and have a better self carriage then your horse might have a chance to  sit on his backside, and raise his head....


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## _GG_ (21 August 2014)

charlie76 said:



			I have plenty of pictures of my horse btv during his training, however, most, not all of the time, its just a phase that happens when learning new movements. I would much prefer a horse slightly btv and ' through' than one out to a contact with a stuff back and neck.
I had many many trainers tell me I needed to get my horse, who is naturally short on the neck , up and out. I did this to the detriment of his training as he just became stiff and tight. Now I dontbworry about him being a bit deep and btv anymore as long as he is connected, using BKS back and hind legs and allowing me to ride him from leg to hand. He then comes up and out Toma soft contact and back through transitions and general lateral work, collection and extension. 
The second he stiffens and tense we return to what you would prob refer to as btv, where as I call it soft, deep and round.
		
Click to expand...

Completely agree...a horse that it taking the bit forward in an open contact that isn't working correctly through the back and hind is not a horse working in a correct contact anyway! It may look like it if you are fixated on head position...but the head alone says little about the quality of work.


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## Goldenstar (21 August 2014)

JFTD said:



			You can't tell me what to do...  You're not my mother!
		
Click to expand...

Do you know that for sure ?


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## charlie76 (21 August 2014)

From this ( in relation to my post above) 






 
To this







With plenty of this in between!






Hope it works.


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## Kit-kat (21 August 2014)

what are you trying to say?


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## _GG_ (21 August 2014)

kate2323 - I'll put my money where my mouth is. This is Fly a few years back. New saddle that we were both getting used to and a new bit for her, so very very soft hands from me and as my entire training principal centres around listening to the horse underneath me, not adhering to any specific method...I let her find her own place. She dips below, rises above, carries on, dips below again and so on. The movement through her back only become tense when her head is up...never becoming tense when she dips btv. 

My philosophy on training a horse correctly is to allow a horse enough freedom to tell me what their favoured way of going is and listening to their reaction as I try different things. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TST_beCSPBU&list=UUqB02AeCTicSi5hlULsPPpA


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## _GG_ (21 August 2014)

Also, if you're interested OP...I do like to go and watch competitions occasionally, so if you are also in the Gloucester area, I would be more than happy to meet you at one and explain what I am seeing....not because I think you should agree with me, but because I think it is crucial to learn as many different views/opinions etc. as possible in order that one can form independent ideas on the matter at hand. 

The offer is there, just let me know.


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## slumdog (21 August 2014)

_GG_ said:



			Also, if you're interested OP...I do like to go and watch competitions occasionally, so if you are also in the Gloucester area, I would be more than happy to meet you at one and explain what I am seeing....not because I think you should agree with me, but because I think it is crucial to learn as many different views/opinions etc. as possible in order that one can form independent ideas on the matter at hand. 

The offer is there, just let me know.
		
Click to expand...

If I was closer I would meet you so you could explain what im supposed to be seeing! Show jumping was so much easier lol!


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## doriangrey (21 August 2014)

GG, I have a lot of respect for you as a poster, but I think OP has an interesting point.  If you (or anyone) can give me a reason why ldr/rollkur/whatever is a valid training method or beneficial to the horse during training I'd be interested to hear it, thanks


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## charlie76 (21 August 2014)

Btv is not rollkur though, it can be created by the rider pulling the horse is of course but btv can just be a lack of confidence or balance.


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## doriangrey (21 August 2014)

charlie76 said:



			Btv is not rollkur though, it can be created by the rider pulling the horse is of course but btv can just be a lack of confidence or balance.
		
Click to expand...

I get that  it can also be an evasion.  Horses by weight of head and neck generally balance on the forehand (especially youngsters), but the question is what is its validity as a training method?


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## _GG_ (21 August 2014)

doriangrey said:



			GG, I have a lot of respect for you as a poster, but I think OP has an interesting point.  If you (or anyone) can give me a reason why ldr/rollkur/whatever is a valid training method or beneficial to the horse during training I'd be interested to hear it, thanks 

Click to expand...

BTV is totally different to LDR/Rollkur....the likes of which I detest vehemently. BTV can, as I have said numerous times in this thread be through force, through see-sawing of the hands and through incorrect training, but the OP is talking about horses from Prelim level up...so a great deal of those horses will be young/green/only part way through progression up the training scale. None are born with the ability to work in a poll high competition frame...they get there through a lot of hard work by the riders and sometimes, in order to cope with working correctly through the back and hind, a young/green/not yet fully muscled up horse will occasionally dip behind the vertical, for a moment or for a while...just as we like to take a break from a certain set of exercises when in the gym...it would be painful and detrimental to keep doing the same thing constantly until our strength and technique could cope with it. 

So, I'm not saying btv is right....I am saying that it is not always wrong. BTV I reiterate as being very different to Rollkur. For a definition, BTV "can" be through heavy hands, but rollkur is always produced with force and is always bad IMO. BTV can be a place a horse puts itself and it's not actually detrimental to a horses physiology. So, so long as a horse being BTV is not there through poor riding, I can look at the rest of the horse and understand. 

Hope that makes sense


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## _GG_ (21 August 2014)

slumdog said:



			If I was closer I would meet you so you could explain what im supposed to be seeing! Show jumping was so much easier lol!
		
Click to expand...

And showjumping scares the bejeesus out of me, lol


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## doriangrey (21 August 2014)

_GG_ said:



			BTV is totally different to LDR/Rollkur....the likes of which I detest vehemently. BTV can, as I have said numerous times in this thread be through force, through see-sawing of the hands and through incorrect training, but the OP is talking about horses from Prelim level up...so a great deal of those horses will be young/green/only part way through progression up the training scale. None are born with the ability to work in a poll high competition frame...they get there through a lot of hard work by the riders and sometimes, in order to cope with working correctly through the back and hind, a young/green/not yet fully muscled up horse will occasionally dip behind the vertical, for a moment or for a while...just as we like to take a break from a certain set of exercises when in the gym...it would be painful and detrimental to keep doing the same thing constantly until our strength and technique could cope with it. 

So, I'm not saying btv is right....I am saying that it is not always wrong. BTV I reiterate as being very different to Rollkur. For a definition, BTV "can" be through heavy hands, but rollkur is always produced with force and is always bad IMO. BTV can be a place a horse puts itself and it's not actually detrimental to a horses physiology. So, so long as a horse being BTV is not there through poor riding, I can look at the rest of the horse and understand. 

Hope that makes sense 

Click to expand...

That makes perfect sense, thanks GG


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## JFTDWS (21 August 2014)

Kit-kat said:



			you need to raise your hands alot higher..sit up straight and have a better self carriage then your horse might have a chance to  sit on his backside, and raise his head....
		
Click to expand...

If that's aimed at me, dear, I didn't ask for your opinion.


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## JFTDWS (21 August 2014)

By special request, Fergs, very much in front of the vertical...


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## _GG_ (21 August 2014)

doriangrey said:



			That makes perfect sense, thanks GG 

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Anytime!

I have just got into bed and thought of a better, more concise way of putting it too which may help the op.


If one is to condemn Rollkur and the use of force on a horse as it removes a horse's liberty, then one must also condemn the act of denying a horse the liberty to go behind the vertical when it so wishes. 

Training is with the aim of creating harmony between horse and rider...harmony doesn't come from the removal of liberty...it comes from the allowance for it and understanding of it 

On another note, I think Squirrel has had a wee somewhere in our bedroom...no early night for me then!!!


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## _GG_ (21 August 2014)

JFTD said:



			By special request, Fergs, very much in front of the vertical...






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I just tried to *like* that, lol


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## JFTDWS (21 August 2014)

_GG_ said:



			I just tried to *like* that, lol
		
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Haha you can always "like" it on facebook, 'cos I'm shameless and put everything up for the world to judge   But yes, clearly this nice IFOV is a better pic than the BTV ones upthread?


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## _GG_ (21 August 2014)

JFTD said:



			Haha you can always "like" it on facebook, 'cos I'm shameless and put everything up for the world to judge   But yes, clearly this nice IFOV is a better pic than the BTV ones upthread?
		
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I think the picture of a happy horse in a lovely frame with a loose curb rein in your Sig says it all


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## JFTDWS (22 August 2014)

_GG_ said:



			I think the picture of a happy horse in a lovely frame with a loose curb rein in your Sig says it all 

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I can't imagine what happened there.  I'm usually too busy sawing him onto the bit for him to be happy.  I feel like I've failed in that photo...


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## doriangrey (22 August 2014)

JFTD said:



			Haha you can always "like" it on facebook, 'cos I'm shameless and put everything up for the world to judge   But yes, clearly this nice IFOV is a better pic than the BTV ones upthread?
		
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Tbh, I don't think that is relevant because a rear is about as much behind the vertical as you can get in terms of evasion?  I still think OP had a valid point and was talking more about horses heads being pulled in rather than evading the bit or being out of balance but I might be reading too much into it.  I do agree that hollow, nose in the air is as much of an evasion but that's another topic.  Still a very interesting thread.

ETA - understand that all pics are a 'moment' in time


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## JFTDWS (22 August 2014)

doriangrey said:



			Tbh, I don't think that is relevant because a rear is about as much behind the vertical as you can get in terms of evasion?
		
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Er, nope, he's definitely not behind the vertical.  He's also in a nice "uphill" balance and his poll's the highest point.  We're ticking all the OP's boxes...


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## doriangrey (22 August 2014)

I'm just hoping that 'Squirrel' is GG's cat


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## Goldenstar (22 August 2014)

JFTD said:



			Er, nope, he's definitely not behind the vertical.  He's also in a nice "uphill" balance and his poll's the highest point.  We're ticking all the OP's boxes...
		
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Go to bed naughty girl


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## alainax (22 August 2014)

JFTD said:



			put your head right in 


out



shake it all about
		
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Loved this, and is typical of a horse in training. Being supple enough to be in out and shaking it all about, whilst trying to develop the strength and balance should not be something which is classed as the rider being evil putting the horse BTV!



Kit-kat said:



			you need to raise your hands alot higher..sit up straight and have a better self carriage then your horse might have a chance to  sit on his backside, and raise his head....
		
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How rude. JFTD can work this breed far better than the vast majority could. 

Kit-Kat and  kate2323 you forgot to log out your alt account. But that aside, Please do show us how you do it  




JFTD said:



			By special request, Fergs, very much in front of the vertical...






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Sorry, you are very much Behind the horizontal!


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## PolarSkye (22 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			do you not think we all need to get back to the actual point of my initial debate and debate why SO many horses  from prelim upwards are ridden with heads pulled in so they are obviously  btv?  This is incorrect but continues to seen as the norm ...
look at any h and h and bd pix and you will see  ( interestingly Jane Kidd who  I think is wonderful points out a horse in btv in her article on self carriage) .... debate this please and please stop getting so personal ...
		
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I don't think you are looking for debate - that implies give and take/ebb and flow in the discussion - I think you are looking for an argument and are immovable in your own beliefs.  

I have already said that I don't agree with your position (and why) - and GG, JFTD, AlexHyde and others have expanded and elucidated brilliantly.  

Not sure what else there is to "debate" really.  

P

P.S.  Oh, and I also believe you were unnecessarily personal and rude to JFTD and PS and should apologize.


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## ester (22 August 2014)

If a rear is asked for it can't be a btv evasion as it's not an evasion - nice to see he can manage to sit on his bum and raise his poll even with you on him Jftd


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## ester (22 August 2014)

doriangrey said:



			I'm just hoping that 'Squirrel' is GG's cat 

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Nope! Tho thankfully not her OH


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## FellOutOfFavour (22 August 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			You see all sorts of training issues at dressage comps, not just btv.  Most of the unaffiliated comps around where I am the standard is really poor, with horses hurried/rushed/unbalanced/noses poking/outward bend, yet they get scored highly. I don't think any of those issues are any less potentially damaging or uncomfortable for the horse than being btv tbh.
		
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Genuine question here. Should all faults be penalised equally in stressage?
We all know BTV, poking nose, rushing, incorrect bend are wrong; but should they be viewed as euqally wrong?
Should a horse dropping momentarily BTV due to lack of balance be penalised as harshly as one who is BTV because he is being held in a vice like grip?
Is the rider who rides along with washing line reins and no contact at all as incorrect as the rider who hangs on for grim death?
Is sustained (i.e not momentary) nose poking worse than sustained BTV?
And should it be illegal to compete without bling and to train without matchy matchy?


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (22 August 2014)

chiming in late and i dont think i have much more to add. My original comment re self carriage stands but im going to make one last politically incorrect statement:

Working a horse deep encourages submission in the jaw,poll,neck and back. Once you have those areas butter soft you can access the hind leg a lot easier, once you have submission to all aids you can mould the horse move it around, bend it shape and gradually work the other muscles until they too are butter soft and elastic.

for some reason a lot of people, trainers included,are scared to say that submission is important and using the hand is as important as the leg but i promise you, if the top trainers were a bit more honest in public, we wouldnt have this mis-guided idea that riding forward in to a fixed IFV outline will suddenly create a GP horse. It wont, and the top guys know that, but are possibly afraid to say for fear that the less educated riders will then ride TOTALLY off the hand.

thank you for all the support lovely people of HHO.

to the OP-im no expert, no international GP rider(yet), and i dont know everthing. But the bread and butter of what i do is re-training horses deemed a write off, either mentally of physically buggered, and often exhibiting quite extreme behaviour.
My own horse reared and reared and reared to the point of being labelled dangerous as a 4yo. He deposited god knows how many riders during his race training. 5 years down the line he's competing at inter 1 and hopefully being aimed at Hartpury CDI at small tour in 2015.How many ex racers do you know doing that?
im not god, but i know a fair bit. I dont really have to justify myself to you but dont tell me i dont know how to train a horse, if theres one thing i can do, its take an obstinate write off and make it a useful horse again.
I train with 3 international GP riders so i know what it takes to get to the top too.

im still waiting to hear exactly what you do.........


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## Jericho (22 August 2014)

Way out of my depth here and probably not related that much to how the thread has progressed but I watched the dressage section of a PC junior one day event and was v disappointed to see a pony clearly behind the vertical and it's back end somewhere on the xc course, being ridden very strong handedly by too small a rider struggling to keep it contained by see sawing her hands win their section over neat, accurate tests with ponies who were in front of the vertical. And this was 10 yr olds competing - what lesson does that teach them!?! Certainly not the one I have been drumming into my child!


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## PaddyMonty (22 August 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			for some reason a lot of people, trainers included,are scared to say that submission is important and using the hand is as important as the leg but i promise you, if the top trainers were a bit more honest in public, we wouldnt have this mis-guided idea that riding forward in to a fixed IFV outline will suddenly create a GP horse. It wont, and the top guys know that, but are possibly afraid to say for fear that the less educated riders will then ride TOTALLY off the hand.
		
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Totally agree with this statement. As many know, I'm on a journey of discovery in to pure dressage. Trained by both a list 3 and list 1 judge. In following their direction I really thought I was ruining Spring as what I was been asked to do conflicted with most of the info I read and heard. Put my trust in them and stuck with it and now all my fears / concerns are a distant memory. Horse has come out the other side a much better ride. 
I really shouldn't be surprised as I know from experience what is talked about publicly on training showjumpers is very different to the reality.
It is a shame that people generally aren't up front on all that needs to happen at times.

PS - you can come teach me anytime. Not ex racehorse but 7/8 TB is near enough


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## _GG_ (22 August 2014)

doriangrey said:



			I'm just hoping that 'Squirrel' is GG's cat 

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ester said:



			Nope! Tho thankfully not her OH 

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Ester knows....Squirrel is our Jack Russell Terrier who, sometimes gets a little too worked up for his own good 



CobsCanDo said:



			Genuine question here. Should all faults be penalised equally in stressage?
We all know BTV, poking nose, rushing, incorrect bend are wrong; but should they be viewed as euqally wrong?
Should a horse dropping momentarily BTV due to lack of balance be penalised as harshly as one who is BTV because he is being held in a vice like grip?
Is the rider who rides along with washing line reins and no contact at all as incorrect as the rider who hangs on for grim death?
Is sustained (i.e not momentary) nose poking worse than sustained BTV?
And should it be illegal to compete without bling and to train without matchy matchy?
		
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No commenting on the irrelevant bling/matchy matchy comment but for the rest...harsher penalties are given when a horse is pulled btv as opposed to being there through a valid reason. It is a rider fault so the marks are deducted from the rider collectives as well as the specific sections of the test. Overall, the combination will be marked more harshly than a combination where there is a valid reason for a horse to be btv. 

I am genuinely of the belief that btv is one of the lesser issues in those that you have listed. A horse btv can still be light and working correctly through the back...a horse that is poking its nose out is hollow in the back, therefore carrying the weight of the rider through the spine which is extremely detrimental...much more so than the total lack of any physical detriment from being a little btv. Remembering we are talking btv here, not rollkur, which is a whole different beast. 



Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			chiming in late and i dont think i have much more to add. My original comment re self carriage stands but im going to make one last politically incorrect statement:

Working a horse deep encourages submission in the jaw,poll,neck and back. Once you have those areas butter soft you can access the hind leg a lot easier, once you have submission to all aids you can mould the horse move it around, bend it shape and gradually work the other muscles until they too are butter soft and elastic.

for some reason a lot of people, trainers included,are scared to say that submission is important and using the hand is as important as the leg but i promise you, if the top trainers were a bit more honest in public, we wouldnt have this mis-guided idea that riding forward in to a fixed IFV outline will suddenly create a GP horse. It wont, and the top guys know that, but are possibly afraid to say for fear that the less educated riders will then ride TOTALLY off the hand.

thank you for all the support lovely people of HHO.

to the OP-im no expert, no international GP rider(yet), and i dont know everthing. But the bread and butter of what i do is re-training horses deemed a write off, either mentally of physically buggered, and often exhibiting quite extreme behaviour.
My own horse reared and reared and reared to the point of being labelled dangerous as a 4yo. He deposited god knows how many riders during his race training. 5 years down the line he's competing at inter 1 and hopefully being aimed at Hartpury CDI at small tour in 2015.How many ex racers do you know doing that?
im not god, but i know a fair bit. I dont really have to justify myself to you but dont tell me i dont know how to train a horse, if theres one thing i can do, its take an obstinate write off and make it a useful horse again.
I train with 3 international GP riders so i know what it takes to get to the top too.

im still waiting to hear exactly what you do.........
		
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I've gone into that before...I think we both did on the Armas threads and IIRC there were many people who just could not understand the concept that it is beneficial to the horse in the long run. I think we got flamed for saying we knew more than others just because we had done it, when in actual fact, that is very true. Anyone who wants to say that a horse should never be btv will not say that after training a horse from backing through to working level. I go back to my point about liberty....it is just as bad to deny a horse the option to hold itself where it wants to as it is to pull it where you want it. 

What PS is talking about rearding submission does not translate in any way to pulling a horse down. Go on youtube and watch Carl Hester demos...he is widely regarded as one of the best, most correct dressage trainers in the world, and guess what...he trains horses to work long and low (which again is very different to LDR). It's done by asking and to ask, a rider uses all aids, seat, legs AND hands, none with force, but all with the horses benefit in mind, because making a horse supple and relaxed will always do it good and never do it harm.

You didn't need to justify yourself PS...those who understand know just the success you are having and I don't define success by ribbons, I define it by the progression of a horse and rider and the progress you have made speaks volumes!


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## Walrus (22 August 2014)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			chiming in late and i dont think i have much more to add. My original comment re self carriage stands but im going to make one last politically incorrect statement:

Working a horse deep encourages submission in the jaw,poll,neck and back. Once you have those areas butter soft you can access the hind leg a lot easier, once you have submission to all aids you can mould the horse move it around, bend it shape and gradually work the other muscles until they too are butter soft and elastic.

for some reason a lot of people, trainers included,are scared to say that submission is important and using the hand is as important as the leg but i promise you, if the top trainers were a bit more honest in public, we wouldnt have this mis-guided idea that riding forward in to a fixed IFV outline will suddenly create a GP horse. It wont, and the top guys know that, but are possibly afraid to say for fear that the less educated riders will then ride TOTALLY off the hand.

thank you for all the support lovely people of HHO.

to the OP-im no expert, no international GP rider(yet), and i dont know everthing. But the bread and butter of what i do is re-training horses deemed a write off, either mentally of physically buggered, and often exhibiting quite extreme behaviour.
My own horse reared and reared and reared to the point of being labelled dangerous as a 4yo. He deposited god knows how many riders during his race training. 5 years down the line he's competing at inter 1 and hopefully being aimed at Hartpury CDI at small tour in 2015.How many ex racers do you know doing that?
im not god, but i know a fair bit. I dont really have to justify myself to you but dont tell me i dont know how to train a horse, if theres one thing i can do, its take an obstinate write off and make it a useful horse again.
I train with 3 international GP riders so i know what it takes to get to the top too.

im still waiting to hear exactly what you do.........
		
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Well said - as a complete novice who bought a young horse I spent ages ensuring I was "light in the hand" i.e. completely ineffective with the horse trotting round doing what he liked and me thinking that if we did enough circles and put enough leg on to get some engine that we would eventually get outline. 2 years of going the wrong way later I met my instructor who has taught me about feel, submission and how to use my hands (semi!)effectively. I'm not talking hauling into an outline, but i am talking about showing the horse what is expected and training them to accept and yield to the hand. I hate people preaching about "lightness and a light contact and all you need to do is ride forwards and have a light contact and miraculously your horse will understand, accept and float round like some PSG horse" to numptys like me when I was starting out I read light as "no contact" and failed miserably. Now we get moments of lightness and we know what feel we're aiming for - it's not nothing in the hand, it's contained energy, elastic and suppleness.


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## Goldenstar (22 August 2014)

I will be even more politically incorrect that horses can be worked LDR without force and it has a place in developing some horses in some situations .
I feel you just have to have an open mind with training 
Experience has taught me to be very suspicious of people who come at it from the moral high ground side .


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## _GG_ (22 August 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			I will be even more politically incorrect that horses can be worked LDR without force and it has a place in developing some horses in some situations .
I feel you just have to have an open mind with training 
Experience has taught me to be very suspicious of people who come at it from the moral high ground side .
		
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Agreed. 

I have long held the belief that anyone who holds a firm belief in a specific way of doing things is doing a great disservice to horses and themselves. We should never close our minds or stop learning. 

And when I say learning...I don't mean by listening to people. I mean by listening to our horses. Forget what a person on the ground is saying and actually listen to your horse and you can't go far wrong.


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## _GG_ (22 August 2014)

Walrus said:



			Well said - as a complete novice who bought a young horse I spent ages ensuring I was "light in the hand" i.e. completely ineffective with the horse trotting round doing what he liked and me thinking that if we did enough circles and put enough leg on to get some engine that we would eventually get outline. 2 years of going the wrong way later I met my instructor who has taught me about feel, submission and how to use my hands (semi!)effectively. I'm not talking hauling into an outline, but i am talking about showing the horse what is expected and training them to accept and yield to the hand. I hate people preaching about "lightness and a light contact and all you need to do is ride forwards and have a light contact and miraculously your horse will understand, accept and float round like some PSG horse" to numptys like me when I was starting out I read light as "no contact" and failed miserably. Now we get moments of lightness and we know what feel we're aiming for - it's not nothing in the hand, it's contained energy, elastic and suppleness.
		
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You have just perfectly described a stage we all go through before that lightbulb moment. 

I look at it this way....a horse cannot accept the contact if you don't actually give it one. 

Also, it doesn't matter how much impulsion you create from behind....if you don't have a contact, it will simply get lost through the front.


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## humblepie (22 August 2014)

I haven't joined in on this due to a general lack of knowledge of anything dressage but current ex racehorse's natural default position was very BTV or otherwise known as overbent.  

GG you may not have seen it but I sent you a PM if you were around Hunters way end of the month and fancied a meet up - come and see the horse in action doing his first elementary and  any wisdom would be gratefully accepted.  Can offer coffee tea or cake!


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## _GG_ (22 August 2014)

humblepie said:



			I haven't joined in on this due to a general lack of knowledge of anything dressage but current ex racehorse's natural default position was very BTV or otherwise known as overbent.  

GG you may not have seen it but I sent you a PM if you were around Hunters way end of the month and fancied a meet up - come and see the horse in action doing his first elementary and  any wisdom would be gratefully accepted.  Can offer coffee tea or cake!
		
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I will go and check my inbox, I normally respond to PMs straight away 

I will see what I can arrange


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## _GG_ (22 August 2014)

I just thought as well....whilst the discussion is on contact and using the hands correctly...this is what I say when trying to explain it...

"imagine you are stopped in traffic in your car when going up a steep hill. When you move off, you need to use enough acceleration to create the power to move up the hill, but if you let the clutch go too early, all of that power will be lost and you will stall. Imagine your seat and legs are the accelerator, asking the horse for power and your hands are the clutch...in charge of controlling/containing it so that it doesn't just get lost."

No idea if that will help anyone here, but it is usually a lightbulb moment when I am teaching people how to bring a horse together. Not push with the leg, pull with the hand....but a balance on containment.


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## _GG_ (22 August 2014)

humblepie said:



			I haven't joined in on this due to a general lack of knowledge of anything dressage but current ex racehorse's natural default position was very BTV or otherwise known as overbent.  

GG you may not have seen it but I sent you a PM if you were around Hunters way end of the month and fancied a meet up - come and see the horse in action doing his first elementary and  any wisdom would be gratefully accepted.  Can offer coffee tea or cake!
		
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I'd love to! I'll check with Dan that we have nothing on and I'll have to ride before I come, but I can't see why I can't come along  xx


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## Goldenstar (22 August 2014)

_GG_ said:



			You have just perfectly described a stage we all go through before that lightbulb moment. 

I look at it this way....a horse cannot accept the contact if you don't actually give it one. 

Also, it doesn't matter how much impulsion you create from behind....if you don't have a contact, it will simply get lost through the front.
		
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I too struggled with this when I started taking dressage seriously , contact does come magically you have to be able to show the horse the way and contact is more than just the mouth  , I was lucky I had access to great GP schoolmasters who showed me the way it's much easier that way 
The second stage is when you realise you can only ride forwards as much as the horse stage of training will allow or believe or not they go BTV or collapse on the forehand or poke their noses or go crooked or lots of things .
If you are always seeking harmony while considering the training scales you and horse find the way .


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## BobbyMondeo (22 August 2014)

_GG_ said:



			I just thought as well....whilst the discussion is on contact and using the hands correctly...this is what I say when trying to explain it...

"imagine you are stopped in traffic in your car when going up a steep hill. When you move off, you need to use enough acceleration to create the power to move up the hill, but if you let the clutch go too early, all of that power will be lost and you will stall. Imagine your seat and legs are the accelerator, asking the horse for power and your hands are the clutch...in charge of controlling/containing it so that it doesn't just get lost."

No idea if that will help anyone here, but it is usually a lightbulb moment when I am teaching people how to bring a horse together. Not push with the leg, pull with the hand....but a balance on containment.
		
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Wish someone had explained it like that to me when i first got my horse! Makes total sense and if i was struggling to undertand contact i would be having a light bulb moment right now. 

I see it all the time people creating all this lovely engery but they are too scared to touch the bit for fear of being accusing of see-sawing or pulling the horse round and its quite sad that through either misinterpretation of terms or general lack of knowledge many horses and riders just do not reach their full potential.


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## chestnut cob (22 August 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			I will be even more politically incorrect that horses can be worked LDR without force and it has a place in developing some horses in some situations .
I feel you just have to have an open mind with training 
Experience has taught me to be very suspicious of people who come at it from the moral high ground side .
		
Click to expand...




_GG_ said:



			You have just perfectly described a stage we all go through before that lightbulb moment. 

I look at it this way....a horse cannot accept the contact if you don't actually give it one. 

Also, it doesn't matter how much impulsion you create from behind....if you don't have a contact, it will simply get lost through the front.
		
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Agree 100% with both of these posts.  A few years ago I had a lot of "classical" lessons with a "classical" trainer who was very much of the opinion that horses should go everywhere on a long rein, rider should never pick up a contact and that the horse would miraculously put itself on the bit, up and out, if you just put enough leg on and did enough lateral work.  I subscribed to this philosophy absolutely and completely so when I got my young(ish) horse, very green 5yo who had only hunted and seen a few coloured poles, nothing else, this is what I tried with him.  What I ended up with was a very angry 6yo who had no idea what was expected of him, was completely confused and by letting him do basically whatever the hell he liked, was completely upside down and incorrectly muscled.  Like Walrus, I'd also believed the myth of horses just knowing how to go around like SRS horses.

Eventually I moved to my current yard and handed horse over to the YO to fix.  He had to be taught to yield to the contact and submission work like GS talks about above was a big part of it.  He is a typical big pony type - short, thick neck which he blocks hard and uses against you.  He needed to be worked LDR to get control of that neck and soften it.  Much like in Pigeon's earlier picture post, if he worked IFV he braced the underneath of his neck and was stiff and stilted.  LDR was a part of his training for a period of time because without softening the neck and front of the horse, we couldn't get any control.  We couldn't work him correctly long and low because he would just b*gger off.  He took a lot of re-schooling and re-teaching.  Now, he has learned how to slow down and take more correct steps instead of rushing off, he has softened his neck (the HUGE muscle underneath has almost disappeared, and it's taken 18 months to get rid of that), softened over his back and is generally far more rideable.  In fact when I schooled last night, I was actually able to work on a circle in trot riding him more "up" for a few strides then properly L&L for a few, and back up again.  This is a huge step forwards for him.  We are only competing Prelim (I'd say he's schooling Nov, and he scores v well at Prelim/ BE80/ UA 90s) but he is now consistently in what I would say is a correct Prelim frame.  He is consistent in the contact, softer over his back, swinging along, his paces are becoming more expressive, and now I can put my leg on and contain it in front.  Last night actually I finally realised what this elastic contact is that my teacher keeps telling me to aim for 

Sorry, bit of a rambling post but really just trying to illustrate that you can't be totally blinkered about training methods.  I thought I was totally right in my beliefs but have had to change them and learn that there are other ways of doing it, and not every horse will respond to the way you think it should be done.


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## chestnut cob (22 August 2014)

_GG_ said:



			I just thought as well....whilst the discussion is on contact and using the hands correctly...this is what I say when trying to explain it...

"imagine you are stopped in traffic in your car when going up a steep hill. When you move off, you need to use enough acceleration to create the power to move up the hill, but if you let the clutch go too early, all of that power will be lost and you will stall. Imagine your seat and legs are the accelerator, asking the horse for power and your hands are the clutch...in charge of controlling/containing it so that it doesn't just get lost."

No idea if that will help anyone here, but it is usually a lightbulb moment when I am teaching people how to bring a horse together. Not push with the leg, pull with the hand....but a balance on containment.
		
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Nevermind going to AM DR, I might just have to come and stay with you for a few days' lessons!


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## Walrus (22 August 2014)

chestnut cob said:



			Agree 100% with both of these posts.  A few years ago I had a lot of "classical" lessons with a "classical" trainer who was very much of the opinion that horses should go everywhere on a long rein, rider should never pick up a contact and that the horse would miraculously put itself on the bit, up and out, if you just put enough leg on and did enough lateral work.  I subscribed to this philosophy absolutely and completely so when I got my young(ish) horse, very green 5yo who had only hunted and seen a few coloured poles, nothing else, this is what I tried with him.  What I ended up with was a very angry 6yo who had no idea what was expected of him, was completely confused and by letting him do basically whatever the hell he liked, was completely upside down and incorrectly muscled.  Like Walrus, I'd also believed the myth of horses just knowing how to go around like SRS horses.

Eventually I moved to my current yard and handed horse over to the YO to fix.  He had to be taught to yield to the contact and submission work like GS talks about above was a big part of it.  He is a typical big pony type - short, thick neck which he blocks hard and uses against you.  He needed to be worked LDR to get control of that neck and soften it.  Much like in Pigeon's earlier picture post, if he worked IFV he braced the underneath of his neck and was stiff and stilted.  LDR was a part of his training for a period of time because without softening the neck and front of the horse, we couldn't get any control.  We couldn't work him correctly long and low because he would just b*gger off.  He took a lot of re-schooling and re-teaching.  Now, he has learned how to slow down and take more correct steps instead of rushing off, he has softened his neck (the HUGE muscle underneath has almost disappeared, and it's taken 18 months to get rid of that), softened over his back and is generally far more rideable.  In fact when I schooled last night, I was actually able to work on a circle in trot riding him more "up" for a few strides then properly L&L for a few, and back up again.  This is a huge step forwards for him.  We are only competing Prelim (I'd say he's schooling Nov, and he scores v well at Prelim/ BE80/ UA 90s) but he is now consistently in what I would say is a correct Prelim frame.  He is consistent in the contact, softer over his back, swinging along, his paces are becoming more expressive, and now I can put my leg on and contain it in front.  Last night actually I finally realised what this elastic contact is that my teacher keeps telling me to aim for 

Sorry, bit of a rambling post but really just trying to illustrate that you can't be totally blinkered about training methods.  I thought I was totally right in my beliefs but have had to change them and learn that there are other ways of doing it, and not every horse will respond to the way you think it should be done.
		
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You could have been writing our story in this post! It took us 2 years to get rid of a huge muscle under my horse's neck. Mine is a big pony (13.1hh fell) and getting flexibility, yield and suppleness in the neck is like the quest for the holy grail!!


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## humblepie (22 August 2014)

GG - Cool.  I will let you know when we get the times next week and if you can great.


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## Goldenstar (22 August 2014)

humblepie said:



			I haven't joined in on this due to a general lack of knowledge of anything dressage but current ex racehorse's natural default position was very BTV or otherwise known as overbent.  

GG you may not have seen it but I sent you a PM if you were around Hunters way end of the month and fancied a meet up - come and see the horse in action doing his first elementary and  any wisdom would be gratefully accepted.  Can offer coffee tea or cake!
		
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my horse is a TB ,watch horses going down to the start at the races and it helps you understand why your thinks control type situation and offers this .
I would advise you find a trainer ( often event trainers are used to reschooling TBs ) who works with horses that have come out of racing training .
They are great fun to work with TBs, so rewarding .


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## chestnut cob (22 August 2014)

Walrus said:



			You could have been writing our story in this post! It took us 2 years to get rid of a huge muscle under my horse's neck. Mine is a big pony (13.1hh fell) and getting flexibility, yield and suppleness in the neck is like the quest for the holy grail!!
		
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Yep! And then combine that with mine's attitude of 'NO I won't I haven't had to so far so you can't make me' and you have an idea of where I started off


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## Chirmapops (22 August 2014)

Firstly, and I'm not sure if anyone's said this yet because I'll admit I have missed a few pages of the debate, but congrats to Pigeon for being brave enough to put the pictures of your horse up there to be critiqued. I think on the whole it's great to see so many people having a constructive discussion, just a shame there are those who think they "know best" and are unwilling to budge from their rather stiffly held view. I'm not sure I would be so brave as to invite that sort of criticism from people behind a computer keyboard. 

Secondly, for those who are BD member or associate members, there is a BRILLIANT article by Jane Kidd in the new issue of the magazine about self carriage, the difference between carriage and a horse carrying itself without relying on the rider to prop it up, and the way a proper contact should feel (elastic, NOT featherlight and non-existent). Really fascinating, I think you can read it online if you sign up as an associate member, although I'm not sure.


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## humblepie (22 August 2014)

Hi Goldenstar - thanks.  We have worked with him to develop his strength and he is a pleasure to work with.  It was just interesting to me that he was so BTV though I agree that when you watch them go down to the start they are often like that - I watch a lot of racing and am always eyeing up the next champion show horse.  It was just that my other ex racehorse (who got to HOYS in pure showing classes) was very much the other way and defaulted to giraffe if allowed to (!) so it was a different challenge to come across for me.  My other ex racehorse never went on the bit in her life but jumped Foxhunter and Grade C but that is another story and not one for a dressage thread....


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## _GG_ (22 August 2014)

Chirmapops said:



			Firstly, and I'm not sure if anyone's said this yet because I'll admit I have missed a few pages of the debate, but congrats to Pigeon for being brave enough to put the pictures of your horse up there to be critiqued. I think on the whole it's great to see so many people having a constructive discussion, just a shame there are those who think they "know best" and are unwilling to budge from their rather stiffly held view. I'm not sure I would be so brave as to invite that sort of criticism from people behind a computer keyboard. 

Secondly, for those who are BD member or associate members, there is a BRILLIANT article by Jane Kidd in the new issue of the magazine about self carriage, the difference between carriage and a horse carrying itself without relying on the rider to prop it up, and the way a proper contact should feel (elastic, NOT featherlight and non-existent). Really fascinating, I think you can read it online if you sign up as an associate member, although I'm not sure.
		
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Thank you for that. I'll share a video and a couple of pictures of a lovley horse, but one that, when going in a featherlight contact with his head on the vertical, is not engaged or working correctly at all. But with an, as you say, elastic contact, he works through far better. 

This is him ridden by his them owner....she was very happy with his way of going...I was actually teaching her and explaining that his head in this position on a featherlight contact in no way meant that he was working correctly through his body. 






Here is a picture of him with me riding. Short stirrups and a GP saddle because he has a tendency to buck when he's had a few days off, but it shows a similar head position, but a totally different picture in the body, back and engagement. There is still plenty of tension...but it shows a moment in time...






And here is the video from which the above still was taken. He's a horse that had been trained to Elementary level but then used in a riding school where he regularly just had his head pulled in. In the video, what I am trying to work on is maintaining a contact, but encouraging engagement...he dips behind occasionally and when he does, you will see me lift him out of this but not ride in a way that stops him actually doing. I want and need him to do it in order that I can teach him a different way. With him, it was a strength thing...he was not fit (neither was I) and so he found it hard to maintain any frame for any length of time. That's not to say you should stop asking as soon as they start to find it hard, you should find a balance between going past the comfortable but not so far as fatigue. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WpQzNEl3w8&list=UUqB02AeCTicSi5hlULsPPpA

It's about progression. It's about listening to the horse you are riding and what makes them tick...not adhering to a plan to the detriment of the horse.


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## FellOutOfFavour (22 August 2014)

_GG_ said:



			No commenting on the irrelevant bling/matchy matchy comment but for the rest...harsher penalties are given when a horse is pulled btv as opposed to being there through a valid reason. It is a rider fault so the marks are deducted from the rider collectives as well as the specific sections of the test. Overall, the combination will be marked more harshly than a combination where there is a valid reason for a horse to be btv. 

I am genuinely of the belief that btv is one of the lesser issues in those that you have listed. A horse btv can still be light and working correctly through the back...a horse that is poking its nose out is hollow in the back, therefore carrying the weight of the rider through the spine which is extremely detrimental...much more so than the total lack of any physical detriment from being a little btv. Remembering we are talking btv here, not rollkur, which is a whole different beast. !
		
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Thanks 
The bit about bling was an attempt to lighten the mood...


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## Pigeon (22 August 2014)

Thanks Chirmapops  I have a thick skin haha, three years of hanging out with a deranged tb has made sure of that 

Oh contact was the worst thing for me to grasp. It took years. Years. I'm getting there now, I hope, but I still revert to loopy reins given half a chance!

 Elastic is a good description, I describe the feel like play dough. Malleable. The sort of contact where you can half halt with one finger and it actually means something. If you have to move your hands you haven't enough contact!!


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## JFTDWS (22 August 2014)

alainax said:



			How rude. JFTD can work this breed far better than the vast majority could. 

Kit-Kat and  kate2323 you forgot to log out your alt account. But that aside, Please do show us how you do it  

Sorry, you are very much Behind the horizontal!
		
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Lol.  And thanks.  Rubbish, of course, I'm not claiming to be an expert, even with highlands.  I'm not, by a long way indeed.  But I don't really need helpful hints from the OP in any of her guises either  



PolarSkye said:



			P.S.  Oh, and I also believe you were unnecessarily personal and rude to JFTD and PS and should apologize.
		
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Hehe, somehow I'm not expecting an apology...



ester said:



			If a rear is asked for it can't be a btv evasion as it's not an evasion - nice to see he can manage to sit on his bum and raise his poll even with you on him Jftd 

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I'm amazed his knees don't buckle to be honest!


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## ester (22 August 2014)

Frank was v. like the bay welshie GG - head in the right place but the rest of his body not actually doing much - he is pretty short backed and was way off tracking up!


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## Pigeon (22 August 2014)

JFTD said:



			By special request, Fergs, very much in front of the vertical...






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Is he a Highland or a Lipizzaner?


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## _GG_ (22 August 2014)

ester said:



			Frank was v. like the bay welshie GG - head in the right place but the rest of his body not actually doing much - he is pretty short backed and was way off tracking up!
		
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I find it really common in Welshies to be honest. They find the head position easy so many riders stop there, happy with it. This horse is amazing. He would be a perfect schoolmaster for teaching riders about contact. Basically, with him, if you don't hold the contact and ride him properly, he will run into a canter transition and throw a little buck in for good measure. If, however, you sit up, half halt, hold the contact and off-on with the outside leg, he will pop a perfect walk to canter transition remaining uphill, forward and engaged or if you just use an "on" outside leg, he'll pop very sweetly into canter from a trot, no bucking. 

The number of people that I taught on him that exclaimed how shocked they were at how much weight was in their hands when he was working properly says it all. He wasn't leaning...they were just expecting featherlight contact. 

A way that I explain the "weight" in the reins is that it is much more comfortable for the horse to know that the bit will be still and consistent in the mouth than loose and jabbing, which is what a featherlight contact gives.


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## chestnut cob (22 August 2014)

_GG_ said:



			A way that I explain the "weight" in the reins is that it is much more comfortable for the horse to know that the bit will be still and consistent in the mouth than loose and jabbing, which is what a featherlight contact gives.
		
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Which is why the old schooling whip across your hands trick works so well, as I've been recently discovering while I'm trying to improve the consistency of my contact.  Keeps my hands much stiller, carried more as a pair, and horse is much happier and secure in the contact


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## Pigeon (22 August 2014)

_GG_ said:



			A way that I explain the "weight" in the reins is that it is much more comfortable for the horse to know that the bit will be still and consistent in the mouth than loose and jabbing, which is what a featherlight contact gives.
		
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This!!! It was realising this that made a huge difference to me. I realised that a secure squishy contact is so much nicer for the horse. GG you're so good at phrasing stuff!!

I might post a video from the other day, of us going through a test, once with a decent contact and once with a 'featherlight' contact, which is what I revert to when I'm nervous. It's fascinating in light of this thread, because horse looks so utterly pissed off with the inconsistent lighter contact. 

I don't know if I'm brave enough though, I have a kidney infection and was riding hunched over and standing in the stirrups for downward transitions haha, it really is something to behold.


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## _GG_ (22 August 2014)

chestnut cob said:



			Which is why the old schooling whip across your hands trick works so well, as I've been recently discovering while I'm trying to improve the consistency of my contact.  Keeps my hands much stiller, carried more as a pair, and horse is much happier and secure in the contact 

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Some of the old ones are still the best


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## Fun Times (22 August 2014)

JFTD said:



			By special request, Fergs, very much in front of the vertical...






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Well at least no one can accuse him of being on the forehand and he certainly has his hind legs underneath him (thank god)! Bit naughty of you to give him a hug though as that could be regarded as rewarding his bad behaviour!! 
GG, if ever you fancy a busmans holiday in yorkshire do let me know!


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## kate2323 (22 August 2014)

I've decided to "retire " from this forum ..really can't believe the ganging-up ...seems you can't post any thing without it suddenly becoming " insulting" "rude " or "unnecessarily personal...goodbye and good luck everyone!
love and light kate2323


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## Fun Times (22 August 2014)

kate2323 said:



			I've decided to "retire " from this forum ..really can't believe the ganging-up ...seems you can't post any thing without it suddenly becoming " insulting" "rude " or "unnecessarily personal...goodbye and good luck everyone!
love and light kate2323
		
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Oh now this has really not helped my fear that I am a terminal threadkiller!


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## j1ffy (22 August 2014)

Apart from the weirdness in the middle, this has been a very interesting thread.  Thank you kate2323 for kicking off a great discussion on training and contact...even if this wasn't quite your aim 

The contact piece is interesting.  In Hong Kong, I was trained by a classical German trainer who taught me about steady, but quite firm, contact with an emphasis on everything being smooth ("you must be clear and firm BUT SMOOTHLY" as my horse went bucking across the arena... ).

Mid-way through my lessons with him, I headed to Spain and had a couple of lessons on my trainer's schoolmaster.  Said trainer is very 'classical' in the way the term is used these days in the UK - lots of in-hand work, no gadgets and Iberian horses trained for doma vaquera as well as classical dressage.  I thought I'd need to lighten my hands compared to the German style and it was a disaster!  Spanish trainer was yelling at me "Contact!!  No clack clack clack!!"  Exactly as others have said - the 'light' contact was actually very unstable and distracting for the horse.

I pulled up and asked the trainer to take the other end of the reins so I could feel his usual contact and it was far stronger than it looked from the ground.  He rides predominantly from his seat yet still expects that submission and often complains that north European horses 'have no mouth' (he is often sent horses to improve their piaffe and passage).

Fun Times - don't worry, you're not the thread killer but I usually am so apologies in advance!


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## PolarSkye (22 August 2014)

Pigeon said:



			Elastic is a good description, I describe the feel like play dough. Malleable. The sort of contact where you can half halt with one finger and it actually means something. *If you have to move your hands you haven't enough contact!!*

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This . . . it's very easy to say, though, and quite hard to do . . . which, I guess, is why "feel" is so important.  For years, I struggled with this concept that having a horse light in the hand a) takes an enormous amount of training and work; and b) doesn't mean there's nothing in your hand.

I may get shot down for saying this, but I've lost count of the number of times our dressage trainer has said "push him into your hand" about Kal in order to get him to submit and be soft . . . meaning engage his back end, send him forward and then give him something (still) to go forward into . . . I had another trainer describe it as a circle of energy - created with the leg, captured with the hand and directed via the seat.  Oh, and if you don't have a contact - i.e., have the horse somewhat in your hand/are containing some of the energy with your hand, how on earth are you having a conversation down the bit - and if you're not having a conversation down the bit, what is the bit for?

P


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## JFTDWS (22 August 2014)

Pigeon said:



			Is he a Highland or a Lipizzaner? 

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I suspect the latter 



Fun Times said:



			Well at least no one can accuse him of being on the forehand and he certainly has his hind legs underneath him (thank god)! Bit naughty of you to give him a hug though as that could be regarded as rewarding his bad behaviour!!
		
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He's very light on the forehand, and you couldn't say I'm holding his head in either   Gotta hug him some times!


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## Beausmate (22 August 2014)

JFTD said:



			BTV - shoot me now!







Where as Daemon prefers to:

put your head right in 







out







shake it all about






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At least you are fundamentally interconnected....


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## JFTDWS (22 August 2014)

Beausmate said:



			At least you are fundamentally interconnected....
		
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You should see my list of tangential, apparently irrelevant expenses!


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## _GG_ (22 August 2014)

Well, it seems all it takes is a flounce to kill a thread then. Shame.


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## Lyle (23 August 2014)

Fascinating thread! (apart from the flounce)

I'm another who is moving into the world of Dressage and trying to 'learn' it!

I think something that many instructors forget is to clarify what a lot of these terms actually mean (like 'light' 'forward' etc). I had a huge light bulb moment about my horse being forward and in front of the leg. Here I was getting my lovely young boy to really power around the arena, because he needed to be forward, right? I couldn't understand why my instructor was saying 'slow the tempo!!!', so I asked her to clarify. Basically she said that 'forward' and 'in front of the leg' are more of a state of mind than tempo, so the horse is ready and willing to move off with impulsion at the slightest suggestion of leg. Big facepalm moment from me, and now horse is actually really starting to relax and develop cadence and swing in his movement 

So as far as my anecdotal ramble goes, perhaps the term 'light' is simply a very bare, and misleading description of the fact that the horse will be responsive and steady in the mouth (with contact), and light of the forehand, hence engaged? How often when learning did I think when the instructor yelled "horse needs to be lighter" did I immediately assume in my hand? When really they mean we should be working towards developing the right muscles and strength to allow the horse to engage properly and hold itself in a steady, elastic contact? 

I think a lot of confusion comes from people teaching with only part of the picture known?


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## _GG_ (23 August 2014)

Lyle said:



			Fascinating thread! (apart from the flounce)

I'm another who is moving into the world of Dressage and trying to 'learn' it!

I think something that many instructors forget is to clarify what a lot of these terms actually mean (like 'light' 'forward' etc). I had a huge light bulb moment about my horse being forward and in front of the leg. Here I was getting my lovely young boy to really power around the arena, because he needed to be forward, right? I couldn't understand why my instructor was saying 'slow the tempo!!!', so I asked her to clarify. Basically she said that 'forward' and 'in front of the leg' are more of a state of mind than tempo, so the horse is ready and willing to move off with impulsion at the slightest suggestion of leg. Big facepalm moment from me, and now horse is actually really starting to relax and develop cadence and swing in his movement 

So as far as my anecdotal ramble goes, perhaps the term 'light' is simply a very bare, and misleading description of the fact that the horse will be responsive and steady in the mouth (with contact), and light of the forehand, hence engaged? How often when learning did I think when the instructor yelled "horse needs to be lighter" did I immediately assume in my hand? When really they mean we should be working towards developing the right muscles and strength to allow the horse to engage properly and hold itself in a steady, elastic contact? 

I think a lot of confusion comes from people teaching with only part of the picture known?
		
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When I teach...it tends to be for about 90 minutes, but with breaks as I find it totally counter productive to ask a rider to do something that they don't understand. It's probably why I have so many analogies for everything. I have to find a way to have a rider "get" it or there's just no point.


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## cobden (23 August 2014)

PolarSkye said:



			I've lost count of the number of times our dressage trainer has said "push him into your hand" about Kal in order to get him to submit and be soft . . . meaning engage his back end, send him forward and then give him something (still) to go forward into . . . I had another trainer describe it as a circle of energy - created with the leg, captured with the hand and directed via the seat. 

P
		
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This. My friend and I jokingly call it the patented 'block and boot' method. Please note I said jokingly ! But seriously,you have to have something for the horse to go up to.. took me ages to twig


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## _GG_ (23 August 2014)

cobden said:



			This. My friend and I jokingly call it the patented 'block and boot' method. Please note I said jokingly ! But seriously,you have to have something for the horse to go up to.. took me ages to twig 

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Yes...and I missed that post PS. It absolutely IS a circle of movement. Up through the hindleg, round over the back and down through the rein and round under the girth back to the start point.


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## joycec (23 August 2014)

_GG_ said:



			Yes...and I missed that post PS. It absolutely IS a circle of movement. Up through the hindleg, round over the back and down through the rein and round under the girth back to the start point. 

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I'm confused now, sorry. If the feeling is down through the reins then wouldn't that mean that the horse must be overbent, or on its forehand or both? Shouldn't the feeling on the reins be out from the rider, not down from the rider?


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## Farma (23 August 2014)

joycec said:



			I'm confused now, sorry. If the feeling is down through the reins then wouldn't that mean that the horse must be overbent, or on its forehand or both? Shouldn't the feeling on the reins be out from the rider, not down from the rider?
		
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Good point... i like to feel them being taken up and out in front?


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## _GG_ (23 August 2014)

joycec said:



			I'm confused now, sorry. If the feeling is down through the reins then wouldn't that mean that the horse must be overbent, or on its forehand or both? Shouldn't the feeling on the reins be out from the rider, not down from the rider?
		
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Farma said:



			Good point... i like to feel them being taken up and out in front?
		
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Yes...I was just simplifying the circle shape through the horse, not meaning that the contact goes down if that makes sense. It's not actually a circle if you draw it...well, it is, but a squashed one lol.


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## galaxy (24 August 2014)

I wonder how the OP know for sure that these BD Prelim to Ele horses are not being marked down and commented on being Btv? I'm currently competing BD prelim and yesterday did our first novice. My girl can drop sometimes through turns, due to balance and strength, it's something we are working on. If she does it in a test it is always picked up. Just because you see horses working that way does not mean it is being overlooked by judges.


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## joycec (26 August 2014)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xOOKx8hxRKM

Am I seeing straight? Is ninety percent of this test today by the current number one horse in the world both overbent and broken at C3/C4?

Does modern dressage still have the objective of the horse being poll high? Can the extravagant movement needed to win at top level dressage not be shown by a horse which is poll high and not overbent?


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## _GG_ (26 August 2014)

joycec said:



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xOOKx8hxRKM

Am I seeing straight? Is ninety percent of this test today by the current number one horse in the world both overbent and broken at C3/C4?

Does modern dressage still have the objective of the horse being poll high? Can the extravagant movement needed to win at top level dressage not be shown by a horse which is poll high and not overbent?
		
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Valegro is poll high through the vast vast majority of the text and he hardly ever drops behind the vertical as far as I can see. The behind the vertical thing is difficult as his white snip makes it almost impossible to see the vertical angle of his head from pretty much every view, so when you are just following the line of dark hair, yes, it looks ever so slightly overbent, but when you realise there is more nose there, you can just hardly see it, it is clear that he isn't at all overbent for most of it. 

As for the poll high, I think it is a case of the muscling leading the eye away from the skeletal form of the horse. It looks like he's broken, but he isn't, he's just a well muscled horse and he's that way from correct work. Look at the overall picture. When you look along the jaw/gullet line, it is open and unrestricted and not in anyway close to how it looks when a horse is broken and overbent. 

It's just a bit of an optical illusion. Look beyond the obvious at what is actually happening and you'd be hard beat to find a more consistent contact.


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## joycec (26 August 2014)

I'm freezing the video. It's not an optical illusion.


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## _GG_ (26 August 2014)

joycec said:



			I'm freezing the video. It's not an optical illusion.
		
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Well, I haven't done that but there's nothing major I can see wrong with it when I look at the whole picture. I think it is a bit of an optical illusion with the neck bend but that's me.  I do prefer to see horses ever so slightly above the vertical, but to critique this means a margin of a centimetre either way and you can watch videos of this horse right from when he was a baby in early training and I have never seen evidence of any work that could cause a break. As an overall picture, it's a happy horse in a consistent contact. Never, in any test, have I seen Valegro shoot deep behind the vertical which is what invariably happens when a horse is trained in a very overbent manner...like this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O9iHq1XOv0


Charlotte and Valegro are one of the last combinations I would criticise as they are paving the way towards more riders and trainers to seek a more harmonious way of training...unlike that favoured by the Dutch.


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## Wheels (26 August 2014)

I'm wondering quite how you can tell that 90% of the test was BTV, with those camera angles that's really impossible to tell.  Yes there are some moments of BTV but then she didn't score 100% so the judges aren't saying it was a perfect test.

Some movements showed more BTV than others, some movements had a quick dip behind for a stride or so and then out of it again.


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## _GG_ (26 August 2014)

Wheels said:



			I'm wondering quite how you can tell that 90% of the test was BTV, with those camera angles that's really impossible to tell.  Yes there are some moments of BTV but then she didn't score 100% so the judges aren't saying it was a perfect test.

Some movements showed more BTV than others, some movements had a quick dip behind for a stride or so and then out of it again.
		
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Wasn't there a 100% test scored this year somewhere...would be fab to see a video of that.


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## ihatework (26 August 2014)

I can't watch the test on my mobile so will save that pleasure for my PC tomorrow.
Valegro way of going is rarely BTV though, sometimes in the canter piris I seem to recall thinking he drew back a bit.
There are certainly top dressage horses that show a BTV tendency but I wouldn't automatically put valegro in that catagory.
I do wonder if sometimes people look at the muscle profile rather than the skeleton line


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## Chirmapops (26 August 2014)

Personally I prefer to see a test where the head moves *a little* rather than being rigid and tight through neck and back, it shows there's elasticity through the body and power from the back end. But like GG I don't think the video shows a horses behind the bit, I think CDJ and Valegro are about the best example of harmony you could find.


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## be positive (26 August 2014)

ihatework said:



			There are certainly top dressage horses that show a BTV tendency but I wouldn't automatically put valegro in that catagory.


I do wonder if sometimes people look at the muscle profile rather than the skeleton line
		
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This is what I was thinking, the fact that Valegro has a very cresty neck means the top of the crest is above the poll but not that he is incorrect in his way of going, he does dip behind at times but it is momentarily and will be marked accordingly.


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## _GG_ (27 August 2014)

be positive said:



			This is what I was thinking, the fact that Valegro has a very cresty neck means the top of the crest is above the poll but not that he is incorrect in his way of going, he does dip behind at times but it is momentarily and will be marked accordingly.
		
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That was my point re illusion. Add to that a plait placed right where the muscle is at its highest too. When you look at a horse like Parzival at the 2012 Olympics he looks obviously poll high, but the angle of his jaw/gullet looks extremely severe and he doesn't just dip above and below the odd centimetre like Valegro, but he is really quite inconsistent and almost bobbing headed at times. 

It's hard sometimes to remember what's going on beneath the soft tissue.


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## MyDogIsAnIdiot (27 August 2014)

JFTD said:



			See sawing and general abuse of contact is a result a lack of education, understanding and common sense and it makes me want to mash the rider's face into a blender...
		
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I have very little to add to this thread as I'm no where near as knowledgeable as the rest of you; but can I use this as my sig please? And general life motto? Tempted to get it printed on the side of my tow car and trailer .


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## JFTDWS (27 August 2014)

MyDogIsAnIdiot said:



			I have very little to add to this thread as I'm no where near as knowledgeable as the rest of you; but can I use this as my sig please? And general life motto? Tempted to get it printed on the side of my tow car and trailer .
		
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Haha yes - get the word out there


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## Goldenstar (27 August 2014)

be positive said:



			This is what I was thinking, the fact that Valegro has a very cresty neck means the top of the crest is above the poll but not that he is incorrect in his way of going, he does dip behind at times but it is momentarily and will be marked accordingly.
		
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Lots of stallions and high level dressage horses have muscles that mean that the poll is not visibly the highest point .
The poll has to be a the highest point of the skeleton not the soft tissues .


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## PaddyMonty (27 August 2014)

_GG_ said:



			Wasn't there a 100% test scored this year somewhere...would be fab to see a video of that. 

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IIRC this was not a dressage test as we are discussing. More a young horse type comp where the overall impression and conf is judged.


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## _GG_ (27 August 2014)

PaddyMonty said:



			IIRC this was not a dressage test as we are discussing. More a young horse type comp where the overall impression and conf is judged.
		
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Ah, fair enough. I remember reading about it and thinking WTH??? lol


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## _GG_ (27 August 2014)

This is my take on it...

A horses spine...showing the Atlas, Axis and C3 (not marked but is next to the Axis, C3 being where the majority agree is where a horse becomes "broken" when overbent with the use of force. 







A horse "broken" at C3, where the head is so far behind the vertical and the poll is far too low. 






Valegro....where the only place that one could say there is a break in the neck is actually at the Atlas/Axis joint, not the C3. What can be perceived as a break in the neck above the C3 is actually just crest. Photo below, lool closely at the angle of the poll/jaw line. He is very very marginally btv, but then he didn't score a ten for every movement in the test, so nobody is saying it is perfect, but he is poll high. 






The reason he looks not to be poll high and the reason he creates an illusion of not being poll high is his very well developed crest. This crest can easily be seen in the photo's below as being well above the poll even when his is in a relaxed state with his nose poking out. 
















And when you look at the whole picture of a horse in work...and remember that despite many peoples obsession with it, the head position really is only a fraction of the overall aim. Looking at Valegro (as I feel the desire to defend him and Charlotte here), what you see is an harmonious picture. He is a horse that is so well engaged behind, so round through the back and uphill and so accepting of a good contact that the overall picture is worthy of nothing but admiration. This is what people should aim towards. 

Does his being ever so marginally btv sometimes mean that he is ever pulled there? Hell no...as the picture below illustrates beautifully. Another engaged horse working correctly with no contact and his own balance has put him ever so marginally behind the vertical. 






My biggest wish with dressage is that things aren't always taken so literally. We are not riding machines. If we are so concerned with allowing these animals their own will, we must therefore be willing to allow them the freedom of movement...not expecting them to be bang on a certain angle in all the parts of the body all at the same time, all of the time.


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## PolarSkye (27 August 2014)

galaxy said:



			I wonder how the OP know for sure that these BD Prelim to Ele horses are not being marked down and commented on being Btv? I'm currently competing BD prelim and yesterday did our first novice. My girl can drop sometimes through turns, due to balance and strength, it's something we are working on. If she does it in a test it is always picked up. Just because you see horses working that way does not mean it is being overlooked by judges.
		
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Completely agree.  I scribed for a listed judge all day on Monday - just a (relatively) small local show - unaffiliated - and she absolutely picked up EVERY SINGLE TIME a horse was ducking behind the vertical - and why it was doing it - and marked accordingly.  In the past two years, out and about with Kal, I've really not seen the numbers of horses going round BTV that the OP is claiming are out there . . . 

P


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## PolarSkye (27 August 2014)

_GG_ said:



			My biggest wish with dressage is that things aren't always taken so literally. We are not riding machines. If we are so concerned with allowing these animals their own will, we must therefore be willing to allow them the freedom of movement...not expecting them to be bang on a certain angle in all the parts of the body all at the same time, all of the time.
		
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Indeed.  And then there are the scales of training (which is ultimately what dressage is all about).

P


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## doriangrey (27 August 2014)

Wow, there is so much for me to disagree about on here, but hopefully the more kind of you will point out where or if I'm going wrong as I'm not riding at the moment but looking and learning especially about horse bio-mechanics.  Sorry GG I don't agree with what you said about Valegro as he has very little crest, thankfully so, but I think his musculature is wrong in the neck as it is very pronounced, and not a fatty crest it you get me.  I don't want to kick off an argument, but is it so difficult now to take on board the new information and knowledge of how a horse works in its entirety and especially with a rider on board?  Elevation comes from behind, engagement of the hocks and rotation of the pelvis lifts the lumbar vertebrae.  Of course I know there is much more to it but I have seen so many pics of horses not tracking up, hollow under saddle and looking so tense in their faces at a high level (lol horses not riders but ..) 

I found this very interesting reading and yes I have pony who I will be introducing to dressage when she (and I) are ready

http://www.horsesandpeople.com.au/article/collection-part-2-developing-the-top-line#.U_5AW8VdWqc

So, a real question to the very experienced out there - is it time to reconsider your training considering the new scientific information out there .. or do you carry on the way you normally do, or do you think it's a crock!!?


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## _GG_ (27 August 2014)

doriangrey said:



			Wow, there is so much for me to disagree about on here, but hopefully the more kind of you will point out where or if I'm going wrong as I'm not riding at the moment but looking and learning especially about horse bio-mechanics.  Sorry GG I don't agree with what you said about Valegro as he has very little crest, thankfully so, but I think his musculature is wrong in the neck as it is very pronounced, and not a fatty crest it you get me.  I don't want to kick off an argument, but is it so difficult now to take on board the new information and knowledge of how a horse works in its entirety and especially with a rider on board?  Elevation comes from behind, engagement of the hocks and rotation of the pelvis lifts the lumbar vertebrae.  Of course I know there is much more to it but I have seen so many pics of horses not tracking up, hollow under saddle and looking so tense in their faces at a high level (lol horses not riders but ..) 

I found this very interesting reading and yes I have pony who I will be introducing to dressage when she (and I) are ready

http://www.horsesandpeople.com.au/article/collection-part-2-developing-the-top-line#.U_5AW8VdWqc

So, a real question to the very experienced out there - is it time to reconsider your training considering the new scientific information out there .. or do you carry on the way you normally do, or do you think it's a crock!!?
		
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The word crest was used in response to another post. Base point being that you cannot look at the muscling of a horse and determine that that means the skeletal structure is incorrect. You have to look at the whole picture. 

A horse that is always on or always above the vertical in a fixed position is not good...that is caused by tension. As a horses body moves, I believe we must allow their necks and heads to move as well. I am vehemently opposed to using force of any kind, but I al also opposed to holding a horse in a fixed position because it is determined to be correct. 

I am always open to changing my methods of training. Throughout my life, I have changed enormously as I learn and take on more information. I think the day that you think you've got it cracked is the day you should jack it in. 

That said, I also get really frustrated with the emphasis always being on the bl00dy head. Horses didn't tell us that their noses have to be on or just above the vertical, that's a human concept. Leave a horse to do his own thing and he will balance himself, sometimes above, sometimes on and sometimed just behind the vertical. What you don't see is horses pressing their chins to their own chests, so I won't ever agree with that. In short, what I am saying is that IF the whole picture of the horse is correct, weight truly taken behind, truly lifted through the back, then the nose being a fraction behind the vertical is really not that big a deal...a horse should be allowed the liberty to do that. When you watch Charlotte or Carl ride, they are elastic in their contact...they move with the horse in the contact rather than making the horse stay in a rigid frame. The whole picture shows a correct horse.

Overbending is the new trend in people to criticise others now. Your horse is slightly overbent so it's wrong, it's bad. I read this or I studied that and it says the nose should always be on or just above the vertical. ALL ABOUT THE NOSE. 

It really does my head in. If you (in general, not aimed directly at you doriangrey) really care about the effects of riding and training on the horses mind and body, it is worth being completely independent in your thought. There are many articles being written now and many studies being conducted. Almost all of which have some form of bias. There's also a difference between overbent and behind the vertical to me. Overbent being from the neck and btv being the head alone. A horse not being able to be overbent and poll high, but being perfectly able, like Valegro, to be btv and poll high. 

Of course people are going to disagree with me. That's fine. I'm still learning, I hope we all are. But quite a while ago now I realised that a horse moving in a way that supports its ability to carry us with their optimum health is mind actually has very little to do with where the flipping head is and that's why I can get a bit het up with the whole BTV thing. 

Such concern for the horses head is leading to a total neglect of everything else. Not for everyone obviously, but for many novices at home, they don't know the difference. They can see btv as wrong, so let the horse go nose out, not realising it has hollowed through teh back and that is detrimental to the horse. 

I would bin the term "on the bit" if I could and swap it for "engaged" and "lifted through the back" as they have a direct impact on the physiological health of the horse.


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## Goldenstar (27 August 2014)

I agree with GG that on the bit is a term that's had it's day , and the focus on the head or nose is a red herring .
We have moved on .
Training has changed and moved on a lot in the forty years I have been having fun with horses .
I had a foreign trainer say to me once the horse freely gives it's self up to be ridden I have never forgotten that I thought it was a lovely way to express what training and developing a horse at it's best achieves .


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## doriangrey (27 August 2014)

Lol, GG .. don't disagree with you but elevation comes from engagement of the hocks and rotation of the pelvis.  Whatever you do at the front won't affect lumbar spine.  It's just that the original poster got such a massive negative hit and I'm not sure why?  Ok, I admit I'm being a little argumentative now, but we've lost IMO a real dialogue between riders/grooms/horses - so GG  - what does it take for your horse to say 'I'm in pain or just quirky'?


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## Goldenstar (27 August 2014)

DG you may have lost dialogue but I can assure we have lots of dialogue here .


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## _GG_ (27 August 2014)

doriangrey said:



			Lol, GG .. don't disagree with you but elevation comes from engagement of the hocks and rotation of the pelvis.  Whatever you do at the front won't affect lumbar spine.  It's just that the original poster got such a massive negative hit and I'm not sure why?  Ok, I admit I'm being a little argumentative now, but we've lost IMO a real dialogue between riders/grooms/horses - so GG  - what does it take for your horse to say 'I'm in pain or just quirky'?
		
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Not sure why you could think there's anything to be argumentative about as we saying the same thing.

Pain vs quirky? Basically knowing what is normal for a horse and what is not but no idea what that has to do with what had been discussed in recent pages. I don't think anyone wad harsh on the op...just concerned by the lack of willingness to see any other viewpoint.


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## _GG_ (27 August 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			DG you may have lost dialogue but I can assure we have lots of dialogue here .
		
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Haha, usually too much.


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## shortstuff99 (28 August 2014)

doriangrey said:



			Lol, GG .. don't disagree with you but elevation comes from engagement of the hocks and rotation of the pelvis.  Whatever you do at the front won't affect lumbar spine
		
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See this confuses me. The neck is connected to the spine (and the rest of the body) so surely what you do with it will affect the rest of the horse! You can't have a soft back without a soft neck.


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## Farma (28 August 2014)

Dg you mention pain, I just wanted to add I have a very hot wb and if there was any amount of discomfort or tension she will happily let me know full well there is! When I ride I normally put her in long and low, up and out, round  and deep, flexing round my leg and on and back in collection/ extension  and it makes her very soft and relaxed through her body and willing to work into a soft contact, if I did none of that and just pushed her to have her nose in the deemed perfect place we would struggle as she wouldn't be supple enough? Maybe I'm doing something wrong but if u think I am please tell me how I can work to improve as I am open to suggestions x


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## _GG_ (28 August 2014)

Farma said:



			Dg you mention pain, I just wanted to add I have a very hot wb and if there was any amount of discomfort or tension she will happily let me know full well there is! When I ride I normally put her in long and low, up and out, round  and deep, flexing round my leg and on and back in collection/ extension  and it makes her very soft and relaxed through her body and willing to work into a soft contact, if I did none of that and just pushed her to have her nose in the deemed perfect place we would struggle as she wouldn't be supple enough? Maybe I'm doing something wrong but if u think I am please tell me how I can work to improve as I am open to suggestions x
		
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Sounds pretty good to me.


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## Goldenstar (28 August 2014)

shortstuff99 said:



			See this confuses me. The neck is connected to the spine (and the rest of the body) so surely what you do with it will affect the rest of the horse! You can't have a soft back without a soft neck.
		
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You can't you are spot on you have to be able to influence the neck to influence the whole horse.
You can't divide the horse up and ignore bits of it when you work it .
The main bulk of the muscles you are seeking to influence are in the horses body and neck .


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## _GG_ (28 August 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			You can't you are spot on you have to be able to influence the neck to influence the whole horse.
You can't divide the horse up and ignore bits of it when you work it .
The main bulk of the muscles you are seeking to influence are in the horses body and neck .
		
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It's the age old.....doesn't matter how much you work on the back end, if you don't pay attention to the front, all will be lost!


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## Wheels (3 September 2014)

I just wanted to resurrect this thread because I have a question.

What are the benefits of or indeed the problems with riding overbent on purpose - I'm not necessarily talking about anything as extreme as rollkur but I am talking about purposefully holding the horse BTV.  Now I am told by a couple of people far more experienced than me that this is in fact done by a lot of competition riders for stretching and for getting a horse to be more submissive.

What is the consensus on this?


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## _GG_ (3 September 2014)

Wheels said:



			I just wanted to resurrect this thread because I have a question.

What are the benefits of or indeed the problems with riding overbent on purpose - I'm not necessarily talking about anything as extreme as rollkur but I am talking about purposefully holding the horse BTV.  Now I am told by a couple of people far more experienced than me that this is in fact done by a lot of competition riders for stretching and for getting a horse to be more submissive.

What is the consensus on this?
		
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For me it should not be "holding" the horse there, but the ability to move a horses body, all of it in independence is paramount to creating suppleness, relaxation, submission and overall harmony. If you have to pull a horse forcefully into flexion, then you are either going for too much flexion (rollkur) or you are missing some steps on the way and the horse is not yet balanced enough to flex parts of the body.


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## Ferdinase514 (6 September 2014)

kate2323 said:



			good point but should this be rewarded - why cant judges actually be allowed to write "behind the bit" ," in front of the bit "and "on the bit"...why is everything clouded in mystique with expressions like "does not accept the bridle" , "not submissive " "not through"
Why can't judges speak in plain english?!
		
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Because several of the phrases you've used mean different things.

What's that I hear trip,trap,tropping over the bridge?


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## kate2323 (6 September 2014)

yes they do mean different things...obviously! What do you mean by trip,trap,tropping over the bridge?


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## cobwithattitude (7 September 2014)

Strictly come dancing has returned.....and believe reference is to an old fairy tale involving amongst other creatures...three billy goats gruff.


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## JFTDWS (7 September 2014)

cobwithattitude said:



			Strictly come dancing has returned.....and believe reference is to an old fairy tale involving amongst other creatures...three billy goats gruff. 

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Team Zoe here.  Or whatever her "not in Casualty" name is 

What ho, bridge dweller!


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## joycec (7 September 2014)

Wheels said:



			I just wanted to resurrect this thread because I have a question.

What are the benefits of or indeed the problems with riding overbent on purpose - I'm not necessarily talking about anything as extreme as rollkur but I am talking about purposefully holding the horse BTV.  Now I am told by a couple of people far more experienced than me that this is in fact done by a lot of competition riders for stretching and for getting a horse to be more submissive.

What is the consensus on this?
		
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No one else has answered your very sensible question, so I'll try, from my limited knowledge.

The draw backs of riding a horse overbent:

It is easy to tip them onto the forehand.

If you do it too much, it can be difficult to get them out of it in a competition.

The pros:

It's difficult for a horse to lock its back or neck when overbent, so it can be a good way to keep the horse loose.

It's more difficult for a boisterous horse to do any serious aerial acrobatics if kept overbent, so can be used to achieve submission, or at least control.

For me, I would choose overbent over a poking nose and set mouth and neck (and I'd choose it over being bucked off!).  But I'm not talking about pulling the horse into it, and I'd try to get the nose up and out without losing the flexibility of the neck and feel on the mouth as soon as I could.

My understanding is that all top riders in dressage now train overbent. So it is achieving results in the ring.  But there is also a lot of criticism among classicists of very high marks being given for technically incorrect paces.


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## _GG_ (7 September 2014)

_GG_ said:



			For me it should not be "holding" the horse there, but the ability to move a horses body, all of it in independence is paramount to creating suppleness, relaxation, submission and overall harmony. If you have to pull a horse forcefully into flexion, then you are either going for too much flexion (rollkur) or you are missing some steps on the way and the horse is not yet balanced enough to flex parts of the body.
		
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joycec said:



			No one else has answered your very sensible question, so I'll try, from my limited knowledge.

The draw backs of riding a horse overbent:

It is easy to tip them onto the forehand.

If you do it too much, it can be difficult to get them out of it in a competition.

The pros:

It's difficult for a horse to lock its back or neck when overbent, so it can be a good way to keep the horse loose.

It's more difficult for a boisterous horse to do any serious aerial acrobatics if kept overbent, so can be used to achieve submission, or at least control.

For me, I would choose overbent over a poking nose and set mouth and neck (and I'd choose it over being bucked off!).  But I'm not talking about pulling the horse into it, and I'd try to get the nose up and out without losing the flexibility of the neck and feel on the mouth as soon as I could.

My understanding is that all top riders in dressage now train overbent. So it is achieving results in the ring.  But there is also a lot of criticism among classicists of very high marks being given for technically incorrect paces.
		
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I did...think it just got lost, lol!


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## kate2323 (7 September 2014)

is this what the h and h forum is actually about? think will stick to BD - at least they seem to know more about actual dressage.


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## _GG_ (7 September 2014)

kate2323 said:



			is this what the h and h forum is actually about? think will stick to BD - at least they seem to know more about actual dressage.
		
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Some of us are sticking to the topic.


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## kate2323 (7 September 2014)

I was answering JFTD's little in-joke  "strictly  come  dancing comment not any of the above..sorry for the misunderstanding...


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## _GG_ (7 September 2014)

kate2323 said:



			I was answering JFTD's little in-joke  "strictly  come  dancing comment not any of the above..sorry for the misunderstanding...
		
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No worries x


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## Goldenstar (7 September 2014)

kate2323 said:



			is this what the h and h forum is actually about? think will stick to BD - at least they seem to know more about actual dressage.
		
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Be sure to play nice over there .


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## kate2323 (7 September 2014)

why?


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## Goldenstar (7 September 2014)

Because it's the polite thing to do .


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## kate2323 (7 September 2014)

sorry  I thought this was a discussion about dressage not a lesson in how you think I ought to behave....


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## Wheels (7 September 2014)

joycec said:



			No one else has answered your very sensible question, so I'll try, from my limited knowledge.

The draw backs of riding a horse overbent:

It is easy to tip them onto the forehand.

If you do it too much, it can be difficult to get them out of it in a competition.

The pros:

It's difficult for a horse to lock its back or neck when overbent, so it can be a good way to keep the horse loose.

It's more difficult for a boisterous horse to do any serious aerial acrobatics if kept overbent, so can be used to achieve submission, or at least control.

For me, I would choose overbent over a poking nose and set mouth and neck
		
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But these aren't the only two options surely?  What about slightly in front of vertical versus slightly behind? Or nose poking but still moving forwards with a mobilised jaw?


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## joycec (7 September 2014)

Wheels said:



			But these aren't the only two options surely?  What about slightly in front of vertical versus slightly behind? Or nose poking but still moving forwards with a mobilised jaw?
		
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For some young horses, especially those with short thick necks and young/green, it does feel like they are sometimes the only two options for short periods.

I think what people are imagining on this thread is that people are riding overbent for a whole session. While I'm sure some do, that's not what I'm talking about.

My definition of noise poking is that the neck is stiff and the mouth set. There's nothing wrong with a mobile neck and mouth with the nose in front of the vehicle, imo. But nose poking is all wrong.


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## JFTDWS (8 September 2014)

kate2323 said:



			I was answering JFTD's little in-joke  "strictly  come  dancing comment not any of the above..sorry for the misunderstanding...
		
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Why?  I mean, why single me out?  I didn't bring SCD up...  And there was no "in joke".  I don't even know the poster I was responding to.

Feel free to return to BD if you like.  Why would we care?


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