# I agree that the FEI need a boot up the bum



## skewbaldpony (11 August 2012)

but I would not like to see every thread about our Olympic successes taken over by/ killed stone dead by the promotion of this view.


Dons tin hat and takes cover.


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## angelish (11 August 2012)

I've fetch my tin hat to join you as I agree 
I normally enjoy the commentary threads but the dressage threads kept getting mobbed by people bitching about hyper flexion


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## skewbaldpony (11 August 2012)

angelish said:



			I've fetch my tin hat to join you as I agree 
I normally enjoy the commentary threads but the dressage threads kept getting mobbed by people bitching about hyper flexion 

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and it's fine to say that - picks name from the air  - Adelinde's horse was overbent, behind the vertical etc - I've said it myself! Just don't like every thread ending with a call to arms.
We know. Yes. Please do lets have a 'put pressure on the FEI' thread.
This one if you like 
Just not all of them.


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## DragonSlayer (11 August 2012)

angelish said:



			I've fetch my tin hat to join you as I agree 
I normally enjoy the commentary threads but the dressage threads kept getting mobbed by people bitching about hyper flexion 

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..perhaps because they feel passionate about it? It's not bitching.

It's easily done, ignore the comments you don't want to see, that's what I do if I'm not wanting to partake in a discussion and stick to whatever it is you are talking about.


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## Goldenstar (11 August 2012)

Flighty horse in very tense atmosphere gets overbent and short inthe neck , there's  a surprise.


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## skewbaldpony (11 August 2012)

I think I'm being taken a bit out of context here. I don't have a problem with people criticising hyperflexion, I'm one of them.
I had noted that threads - not even particularly relevant ones - were having calls to pressurise the FEI tacked on the end of them. That's what I objected to.


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## WestCoast (11 August 2012)

Professional bodies that deal with any kind of competition involving animals will rarely be filled with people who have the welfare of the animals as their highest priority. When the latest animal welfare legislation was going through a few years back the list of organisations against it were all the showing and breeding organisations. Don't see why equestrian sports would be any different. However don't bitch in a forum - if you are concerned then get campaigning. 

Paula


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## Auslander (11 August 2012)

+1. I've been avoiding the threads. Reading them after being there on Thursday made me sad - it was one of the best experiences of my life, and it was a shame to see the threads focusing on the actions of a few, rather than celebrating the great stuff.

FWIW - I didn't see tense, unhappy horses in the ring. I saw supremely fit athletes, bursting at the seams to get on with the job. Every horse was BTV at some point, including the two Iberians. The atmosphere is electric there, and I'm not surprised that horses were a bit tense. Should also be borne in mind that to perform at this level, there needs to be a degree of muscular tension - it's not physically possible to carry out these movements without it. Look at human athletes expressions and musculature as they go for the finish line - they're not very relaxed either!


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## cptrayes (11 August 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Flighty horse in very tense atmosphere gets overbent and short inthe neck , there's  a surprise.
		
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Flighty horse in very tense atmosphere gets overbent and short inthe neck ,  and STILL scores well over 80%  there's  a surprise.


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## Goldenstar (11 August 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Flighty horse in very tense atmosphere gets overbent and short inthe neck ,  and STILL scores well over 80%  there's  a surprise. 

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That's the interesting thing to learn how they decide the marks so If every movement starts as a ten , excellent ,and you work back to good because some BTV was shown so the rest of what the horse showed made the movement worthy of an eight or whatever despite the BTV.
It's also excellent not perfect a ten .


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## cptrayes (11 August 2012)

But the rulebook is clear that overbending is a serious fault and that the highest point of the horse's neck should be the poll.  It is not being marked as a serious fault any more, so these horses trained in rollkur or naturally overbent are scoring *much*  higher than horses which are slightly too much in front of the verticle. While that marking continues, so will hyperflexion of horses.  

They either need to change the rulebook, or score according to the rulebook, or this kind of argument after every major competition is never going to end.


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## BeesKnees (11 August 2012)

Auslander said:



			Of course. However excess tension that blocks the swing of the back is considered a fault in Dressage. That's why it matters.

OP, I agree. I think sometimes in this country we are too quick to focus on the negative, rather than just celebrate the success. Its part of our slightly cynical nature I think and the wish to avoid the gushy, OTT, irony-free reactions you get from some countries, which us Brits see as a bit vulgar 

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## cptrayes (11 August 2012)

Auslander said:



			Should also be borne in mind that to perform at this level, there needs to be a degree of muscular tension - it's not physically possible to carry out these movements without it. Look at human athletes expressions and musculature as they go for the finish line - they're not very relaxed either!
		
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My problem is that the human athletes choose to train to excess for their sport*, and the horses don't get the choice. The numbers that break down before they get to 10 are shocking.



* recent research suggests that most of them already have damaged heart tissue.


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## Goldenstar (11 August 2012)

I am also not sure how you keep the poll as the highest point of the neck when you have a huge crest .


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## Auslander (11 August 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			Of course. However excess tension that blocks the swing of the back is considered a fault in Dressage. That's why it matters.
		
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I'm aware of that - thanks ;-)


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## Auslander (11 August 2012)

cptrayes said:



			My problem is that the human athletes choose to train to excess for their sport*, and the horses don't get the choice. The numbers that break down before they get to 10 are shocking.
		
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Fair comment! My horse is testament to that!!


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## Goldenstar (11 August 2012)

It's not not possible to stand without musclar tension but lets not get mixed up up its mental tension showing In the work we are discussing here.


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## cptrayes (11 August 2012)

Auslander said:



			Fair comment! My horse is testament to that!!
		
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I am green eyed with jealousy that you were actually there


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## Auslander (11 August 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I am green eyed with jealousy that you were actually there 

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Still can't quite believe I was! Best friend got tickets the night before - early 40th birthday present!! Fantastic fantastic day!


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## Auslander (11 August 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			It's not not possible to stand without musclar tension but lets not get mixed up up in mental tension showing In the work we are discussing here.
		
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Agree - my point (badly made!) was that some posters on the rollkur threads seem to confuse muscular tension with mental tension.


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## zefragile (11 August 2012)

I was a bit taken aback by the extremely negative freestyle thread and the comments made about the judges.


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## M_G (11 August 2012)

Auslander said:



			Still can't quite believe I was! Best friend got tickets the night before - early 40th birthday present!! Fantastic fantastic day!
		
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I too am very jealous... Who would have thought Dressage could be so blooming exciting and tear/hayfever inducing... I was sat in work crying my eyes out at what I can only describe as the most beautiful Freestyle test I have ever seen (yes music was very emotive)


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## skewbaldpony (11 August 2012)

once again, just to clarify, the point of my OP was *not* to take issue with anyone criticising the judges, or the hyperflexion, or the result .. in my book, that's what a discussion forum is for.
What I thought I saw start to happen - and I'm going to use a made up examples because I don't want to point the finger, it wasn't a single individual - was for threads to go from 'weren't the flowers pretty?' to 'those pretty flowers hide abuse - petition the FEI now' and 'was that the chimes of big ben?' to 'yes, and the bell tolls for the FEI - petition them now'.
It's sailing close to spam. I'm absolutely happy to discuss the rights and wrongs of the judging, the ways of going, the competitors and even the flowers if you will till the cows come home.


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## Goldenstar (11 August 2012)

I don't think it matters how the FEI handle the whole  working in issue the most vocal of its detractors will never be happy.
Recently I have seen all sorts of things being described as rolkur .
Light is the best disinfectant .The FEI should remember that.
The funniest comment was the RPSCA should take an interest I was just imagining some poor inspector trying to untangle the complexities of dressage training.


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## BeesKnees (11 August 2012)

Auslander said:



			I'm aware of that - thanks ;-)
		
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So no need to state the bloomin obvious about muscular tension then


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## Auslander (11 August 2012)

BeesKnees said:



			So no need to state the bloomin obvious about muscular tension then 

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It may be obvious to you, but not to everyone perhaps. Seems that the majority seem to think that any signs that the horse is not ambling along in happy hacker mode means that it is being tortured.


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## JFTDWS (11 August 2012)

angelish said:



			I've fetch my tin hat to join you as I agree 
I normally enjoy the commentary threads but the dressage threads kept getting mobbed by people bitching about hyper flexion 

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During the commentary, I don't think there was much bitching about rollkur - I know I comments on finding a number of the tests unpleasant viewing, but there was a lot of positive commentary too, and a great deal of unbiased fact stating in there too.


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## skewbaldpony (11 August 2012)

Auslander said:



			It may be obvious to you, but not to everyone perhaps. Seems that the majority seem to think that any signs that the horse is not ambling along in happy hacker mode means that it is being tortured.
		
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I think that may be a teensy little bit patronising.

I wouldn't exactly describe Valegro as being in happy hacker mode, though happier than Parsifal (who I just can't spell as I get my languages fandangled so apologies to him) (though he probably can't spell himself either, to be fair) by a country mile.

I also wouldn't describe Parsifal as being tortured. At least not while in the arena  

Valegro went forward with joy, and Charlotte rode lightly and with sympathy. Parsifal looked uncomfortable, tight in his jaw and neck, over bent and over ridden. In my opinion. I am not an international judge, but neither am I a passing numpty.

Not a dignified way to hold a discussion.


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## Auslander (11 August 2012)

skewbaldpony said:



			I think that may be a teensy little bit patronising.

I wouldn't exactly describe Valegro as being in happy hacker mode, though happier than Parsifal (who I just can't spell as I get my languages fandangled so apologies to him) (though he probably can't spell himself either, to be fair) by a country mile.

I also wouldn't describe Parsifal as being tortured. At least not while in the arena  

Valegro went forward with joy, and Charlotte rode lightly and with sympathy. Parsifal looked uncomfortable, tight in his jaw and neck, over bent and over ridden. In my opinion. I am not an international judge, but neither am I a passing numpty.

Not a dignified way to hold a discussion.
		
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I probably was - but it was a knee jerk reaction to someone else, who was equally patronising!

 At no time, and in no way did I refer to anything you had said (I was in agreement with your post btw). I'm sorry though - I'm really fed up that I had a lovely day on Thursday, but that it's being tarnished by the amount of negative publicity about a few riders. All I've been reading is snarky remarks about how cruelly dressage horses are being treated, and how badly the top riders ride them. 

I'm not even having a go about this forum - it's not just on here, but all over the flamin internet!! I know I don't have to read it, but I can't help myself.

I know Parsival was tight through his neck and not working through from behind - but tbh, from where I was sitting, he looked strong, a bit argumentative and trying to run through the bridle. I'm aware of her reputation, and I think its very sad that she trains in this way - ditto PK, but I didn't see a horse that was being bullied into submission on Thursday, I saw one with a bit of a glint in his eye, who was only a few steps away from boiling over - which would account for at least some of the tension!

I guess what I am trying to say (badly) is that I feel that the slightest signs of tension/tightness were immediately jumped upon as horses being forced, rather than people thinking  "Oops - another one a bit psyched by the atmosphere/the pressure/rider nerves/etc - but that's hardly surprising". Just feel like dressage as a sport got a bit of a pasting, which is not necessarily deserved


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## angelish (11 August 2012)

DragonSlayer said:



			..perhaps because they feel passionate about it? It's not bitching.

It's easily done, ignore the comments you don't want to see, that's what I do if I'm not wanting to partake in a discussion and stick to whatever it is you are talking about.
		
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there is nothing wrong with being passionate about it ,its a very passionate subject that will always provoke some heated debate 
but on a couple of occasions it did seem to turn into play ground bitching on (in my opinion) and yes i did simply ignore the comments i didn't want to see and swiftly left the thread

i commented on this thread because i could see what the op meant ,it was a real shame for every dressage thread to turn into a debate about it


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## sister duke (11 August 2012)

theres a difference with iberian stallions and rollkured horses. the signs are through the whole body not just the head carriage. this was even alluded to in the commentary... in a rare moment where judy ALMOST mentionned hyperflexion but obviously wasnt allowed.... i imagine!

and yes we know everyone does it, and its very hard to stop people training a certain way in the privacy of their own yards but the point here is that its a flagrant break of FEI rules on GB turf at the biggest competition of the year, and most of us dont like that one bit. thank GOD for carl, charlotte and laura flying the flag for proper classical empathic training..... 

from personal experience ive seen the FEI massively fail the horses before by allowing one to compete with pneumonia, against veterinary advice, who, of course never recovered and died so am not surprised by their massive fail with this issue. 

who are the FEI anyway? are they made up of horse people? or just businessmen? anyone know?!!!


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## skewbaldpony (12 August 2012)

sister duke said:



			who are the FEI anyway? are they made up of horse people? or just businessmen? anyone know?!!!
		
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that's a very grey area. 

And I would say, the one that needs addressing first.


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## Mondy (12 August 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Flighty horse in very tense atmosphere gets overbent and short inthe neck , there's  a surprise.
		
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It ought to be surprising, but your post seems to suggest you think the right way to deal with a 'flighty', tense horse is to pull at the reins?

When you reach the Olympics in dressage, I should like to think that enough harmony and trust had been established between horse and rider to avoid hyperflexion and blue tongues. Besides, the video showing the training in hyperflexion does suggest that the spooking/'unfortunate moment' explanation is another little lie.


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## Alyth (12 August 2012)

It seems to me that there are actually 3 issues being discussed world wide!!  Firstly that well known riders are receiving higher marks than they deserve.  Secondly that rollkur/hyperflexion is being used for extended periods of time in a hidden warm up area and thirdly that the FEI don't seem to be doing anything about the problem....IMO the comment about flightly horses shortening their neck etc is being sarcastic as the problem is actually the horse being forced into this type of outline rather than going there of his own accord!!


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## Sussexbythesea (12 August 2012)

Auslander said:



			+1. I've been avoiding the threads. Reading them after being there on Thursday made me sad - it was one of the best experiences of my life, and it was a shame to see the threads focusing on the actions of a few, rather than celebrating the great stuff.

FWIW - I didn't see tense, unhappy horses in the ring. I saw supremely fit athletes, bursting at the seams to get on with the job. Every horse was BTV at some point, including the two Iberians. The atmosphere is electric there, and I'm not surprised that horses were a bit tense. Should also be borne in mind that to perform at this level, there needs to be a degree of muscular tension - it's not physically possible to carry out these movements without it. Look at human athletes expressions and musculature as they go for the finish line - they're not very relaxed either!
		
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Totally agree.

I'm against Rollkur and always have been not just now but for several years since I first became aware of it. However Adeline's horse also had a totally different conformation than say Uthopia or Valegro who are pretty compact. With not a particularly well set neck that is narrow at the point the head joins the neck and would more easily be come overbent particularly on a strong hot horse. 

Whatever is said the overall impression of Adeline's test in the Stadium was good and pretty much the crowd knew it as we all waited with or own tension showing for the score to come up. I know watching it on TV and replaying it bit by bit you can see the tension more clearly and find fault in it but you can with most of the tests. The close ups on TV were defintely more revealing but you don't see these on the day and even the judges don't get that close.   

I don't think though there was a 4% difference between Adeline's test and Laura's - watching Laura's back it was even better than I thought from seeing it in the stadium but I do have my own pictures that show Alf and Laura looking quite crooked at times and slightly behind the vertical.  

Judges can and should only judge what they see before them, leave their predjudices behind and have to discount anything that has happened before, including bad press.


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## Booboos (12 August 2012)

Just for another view point, I was at a regional DR competition yesterday (here in France) and everyone thought the results were rigged to win Britain the gold. They thought Adelinde was robbed, that her test was far better than Valegro's, whose test had numerous mistakes. A couple of French who had been in the audience on Thursday described the atmosphere as depressed at the end of C's test because all the Brits knew she had lost the gold due to the mistakes, but then it was all jubillantly forgotten as soon as the scores came through. No one seems to care about rollkur here, it's just a training method.

So global FEI conspiracies tend to look a bit different from where in the world you happen to be standing in! 

Even on this forum there have been views both that there was an FEI conspiracy to stop GB from getting three medals AND an FEI conspiracy to promote rollkur horses.

Now this is just a suggestion and I may by all means be wrong, but is it possible that there is no FEI conspiracy and the judges mark what is in front of them on the day? Disagreeing with a mark for a movement or the subjective mark for artistic merit for a test is one thing, but claiming that the entire governing body has a hidden agenda that subverts stewards like Jenny Lorriston Clarke and judges like Stephen Clarke does a disservice to the entire sport.


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