# Happy Days For ISH Breeders



## Eothain (23 March 2010)

What a great time it is to be breeding horses in Ireland. The Irish Horse Board has approved the following horses for use by ai:

Champion Du Lys,
Cicero Z Van Paemal,
Couleur Rubin,
Germus R,
Hold Up Premier,
Manhattan,
Orestus,
Andiamo,
Cambridge,
Caretano Z,
Caretino Z,
Catoki,
Cento,
Chambertin,
Claudio,
Coriano,
First De Launay,
Hay Guy,
Levisto Z,
Omar,
Stakkato,
Vancouver,
Painted Black.

Most importantly however, the following have been approved:
Arko III (Argentinus x Beach Boy) - On my to use list
Cabdula Du Tillard (Abdullah x Galoubet) - On my to use list
Castleforbes Lord Lancer (Lancer II x Aldatus Z) - On my to use list
Cornet Obolensky (Clinton x Heartbreaker) - On my to use list
Couleur Rubin (Cordalme x Grannus) - On my to use list
*** Cumano *** (Cassini I x Landgraf) - On my to use list
Dollar Du Murier (Jalisco B x Uriel) - On my to use list
Ephebe For Ever (Galoubet x Night And Day) - On my to use list
Montender (Contender x Burggraaf) - On my to use list
Nabab De Reve (Quidam De Revel x Artichaut) - On my to use list

In fact, for the next few years, the above 10 stallions, are my to use list!!! All I need now is for Je T'aime Flamenco, Peppermill and Eurocommerce Berlin to get approval and I'll be a very happy man.


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## Irishlife (23 March 2010)

We are spoilt for choice, its true. Not convinced the AI stations in my neck of the woods are really up to the job, the conception rates seem exceedingly low by all accounts.

There is definitely room for an Irish Warmblood in fact a register has been set up I believe but whether it can take on the horse board I don't know. Equally it is important to keep breeding our classic half breds and 7/8 bred for hunting and eventing. Plus we have the draughts and the Connemaras. So really we have no excuse not to breed worldbeaters.


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## Aredis (23 March 2010)

Now there are some good Irish names.


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## Simsar (23 March 2010)

aredis said:



			now there are some good irish names.
		
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lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## TomReed (23 March 2010)

Irishlife, you mention the Warmblood Studbook of Ireland.  WSI is now one year old and it is the only studbook in Ireland dedicated exclusively to breeding international showjumpers. We have members in 12 countries.

WSI is not competing with the Irish Sport Horse Studbook/Irish Horse Register. We compete, measure our success, and benchmark ourselves against the best showjumping studbooks in the world such as Holsteiner, KWPN, BWP, and SF. 

Unlike the Irish Sport Horse studbook, the WSI has a robust stallion approval system (as you know, Horse Sport Ireland apparently plans to eliminate stallion approval and go to a "red light, yellow light, green light" system).  WSI also requires every mare and foal to be inspected; stallions cannot be approved for life until their first crop is 11-years-old; mares and stallions must have their progeny inspected when the progeny are 3, 5, 7, 9 and 11 years of age; and mares and stallions can be put on a watch list, and subsequently have their approval taken away, if they do not produce a high percentage of athletes (and specifically international showjumpers). 

Unlike the ISH studbook, the individuals who run the WSI are full-time breeders and we have bred international showjumpers, international eventers, and stallions approved by over a dozen studbooks on several continents.

Please visit www.irish-warmblood.com for more information.


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## Eothain (23 March 2010)

Under the new system, stallions approved on the IHR can have their approval taken away if they're not up to the job of producing proper top class horses. Fair play to Alison Corbally, she's put heart and soul in to her job and has moved the whole breeding policy forward. She has met with staunch opposition from those stuck-in-1975-Irish Draught breeders but has stuck to her guns and hopefully we will see positive results. The traffic light system is actually quite good. Simple but good. Don't write it off just yet. There was no bigger critic of it than me at the start but it has since won me over.

As for the 'good irish names', well with the exception of a small few stallions, including the best of all time in Cruising, Ireland hasn't produced any top class stallions, now we have access to better quality stallions, we can be competitive again. No one bats an eeyelid when a French thoroughbred is used, so what's wrong with using a French sport horse? Nothing!


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## irishdraught (23 March 2010)

I think it's great for Ireland that you now have those stallions approved, but to me, the "Irish" sports horse will be just that, ID or connemara crossed with TB.

That is what Ireland is famous for and that is why people keep going back to Ireland for their eventers.

There just seems to be so many registers popping up, I find it confusing and repetitive. 

I may be missing the point and please forgive me if I am but I hope that this "modern" breeding does not cause the demise of what Ireland already has. I personally think that the 1975 Irish Draught breeders perhaps have reason for opposition.


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## TinyTrigger (23 March 2010)

irishdraught said:



			I hope that this "modern" breeding does not cause the demise of what Ireland already has. I personally think that the 1975 Irish Draught breeders perhaps have reason for opposition.
		
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I echo this. While I think that new bloodlines/improvement are always welcome I really hope measures are put in place to preserve the type of ISH's that made Ireland famous. I would really hate to see the ISH become "just" (I don't say that lightly) another type of European WB. We have a speciality.. a niche in the market.. a USP, if you want, and it would be a terrible, terrible, shame to loose it. 

Eothain.. Stallions/Lines such as Grange Bouncer should not be lost to purely WB breeding..


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## TomReed (23 March 2010)

I agree with irishdraught and TinyTrigger that traditional breeding should not be lost. That is one of several reasons why I wrote that the WSI does not compete with the ISH. The WSI puts strict limits on the percentage of ID blood allowed in approved and licensed stallions (maximum of 12.5%), recognized stallions (0%), and approved mares (50%).


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## Eothain (24 March 2010)

The problem is that the standard of Irish horse hasn't moved forward in the past 20 years. At a recent breeding policy seminar, I had to listen to all these old folks and their kids who were so indoctrinated with the past, that they couldn't see the big picture. Talking about how 30 and 40 years ago, we had 50 horses here fit to jump on an Aga Khan team and now in 2010 not a single one fit to jump on it. That's their own fault. Our glorious custodians of Draught breeding have even made the rules in such a way that if Clover Hill or the King Of Diamonds himself came up for inspection today, that they would be inelligible for inclusion in the Studbook. Which is a bit rich considering that they made the Irish Draught relevant back in the day. Our 'Draught' men and women should be ashamed of themselves for they have completely failed the horse they claim to love. Hell, even the original Irish Draught breed policy from 1925 is more radical than what has been proposed up until now when the HSI decided to shake things up. If these horses are supposed to be our foundation as the Draught-folk tell us so often, then at least make them a foundation worth building on. The modern Draught mare should be closer to the old half-bred mares. That is a breed moving forward. People are trying to get the modern Draughts to be performers at a reasonable level.
I may only be 23, but if I ever breed to an Irish Draught stallion again in my life, then I will not be deserving of anyones tears if the Lord strikes me down.
The other night, a man spoke at length about how if the old style mare is brought in to a show class against a modern style mare, she is put away in to a corner with all the other mares of that type. I thought nothing more of it until a man, who will remain nameless but knows a thing or two about breeding performers, said to me after the meeting that it's the best place for them. They'll all be in a corner where they can be easily shot! Was he a tad harsh? Maybe, maybe not!
These Grange Bouncer types have nothing to contribute to Irish breeding, draught or sport horse. Thats a simple fact. We have had no stallions other than Cruising and Touchdown capable of holding their as sires and competitors. Good sires like Errigal Flight and Puissance have no stallion sons, which is a crime. Stallions like Coevers Diamond Boy and Clover Brigade have been slightly disappointing in terms of the number of good horses they've sired.
My hope is that by breeding to horses like Arko, Cabdula Du Tillard, Cornet Obolensky, Cumano, Couleur Rubin, Dollar Du Murier, Ephebe For Ever and Nabab De Reve, we will get better mares who then can be crossed back to the young Irish stallions like Cara Touche, Cruisings Mickey Finn, Samgemjee and Ringfort Cruise to move the breed forward and get new lines that can be built on with proper management.
The simple fact is, that when we were on top of the world way back in the day, the Europeans used our bloodlines to improve their own and take over. Leaving us behind. I absolutely refuse to believe that the ISH as a showjumping breed is dead and buried, so as the old saying goes, turnaround is fair play!
As long as I have an interest in breeding, I will kick, scratch and claw until the ISH studbook is back where it belongs by any means neccessary.


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## Irishlife (24 March 2010)

Hi Eothain, Tom and All,

I love the enthusiasm of young breeders, my daughter is one also and has her own clear views of type. As she does most of the riding these days I do listen to her. She won the Young Breeders competition run by Teagsc but frankly that was more her background rather than any Teagsc input or education. I am always amazed at the number of people who breed horses who really do not know what good conformation is let alone how to breed a horse for a given purpose.  

We fly the flag as the number one eventing studbook because we breed the correct type of horse for the job - consistently with 3/4, 7/8 and full TBs. Even courses in eventing have changed and we now see more warmbloods of the modern type (i.e. with more blood)competing now they have done away with roads and tracks and steeplechases.

We were number one in showjumping many moons ago it is true, but show jumping changed and courses became tests of power, scope, accuracy and obedience.  The Irish horse did not change, the job we asked him to do did and we have been playing catch up since.  With the amount of mare owners and small breeders we have, the supports in place and access to information is really not enough for the typical one or two mare breeders at the grassroots level. Too many mares are sent to the stallion "down the road" whether he is RID, ISH, Connemara or sky blue pink.

I applaud what has done with the Irish Warmblood Studbook and it will remain I am sure true to its mission statement of breeding world class showjumpers with an irish accent and it no way does that imply that the traditional Irish horse will be diluted because this is specialist breeding. 

The breeding of elite horses is very different to the bread and butter breeding of a good commercial riding horse that will jump up to 1m 20. There is a bigger market for this type of riding club type horse than elite showjumpers. As for what is going on in the world of RIDs - I am baffled except to say a cross of TB has always been welcome into the breed and a "modern" Irish draught was inevitable as the expectation moved toward performance.

So after that ramble I should say I have a mixed band of mares TB's, ISH and modern warmblood types (Furisto and Abdullah TRK) with the objective of breeding sound, useful, correct horses who will do their job. If I get lucky, I might breed an elite showjumper and its nice to be able to try!!


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## TinyTrigger (24 March 2010)

Eothain said:



			The problem is that the standard of Irish horse hasn't moved forward in the past 20 years.
		
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Very true, and probably due, in no small way, to the point IrishLife made about people breeding to the stallion "down the road", but also perhaps.. if it ain't broke...



Eothain said:



			These Grange Bouncer types have nothing to contribute to Irish breeding, draught or sport horse.
		
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Stallions such as GB are our bread & butter IMO. I understand the need for the introduction of new lines for the country to breed successful SJ's etc but those horses are never going to be our main export (horsewise). The main percentage of people buying Irish horses are "everyday" riders. They have no olympic goals. They want a quality, well made, intelligent horse as a hunter/ high class allrounder and stallions such as Grange Bouncer are the mainstay of this type. 

The Irish WB may have a place in bringing Ireland back to the table competition wise but we are in trouble already with the "bread & butter" horses. Finding that nicely bred high-end all rounder is becoming more and more difficult. If we loose our reputation/trade there then how do we pay for the WB breeding program ? If a breeder isn't making money then how do they afford a stud fee for those stallions ? 




Eothain said:



			when we were on top of the world way back in the day,
		
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Competition wise we were on top of the world.. and we will loose our enviable position in the general market unless we can still produce good, sound, hunters/eventers/all rounders. We can't put all our eggs in the Showjumping basket. It would be a sad day when it's not a proud announcement that someone has bought an Irish horse.  



Irishlife said:



			. I am always amazed at the number of people who breed horses who really do not know what good conformation is let alone how to breed a horse for a given purpose.
		
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I despair at this too.. 



Irishlife said:



			The breeding of elite horses is very different to the bread and butter breeding of a good commercial riding horse that will jump up to 1m 20. There is a bigger market for this type of riding club type horse than elite showjumpers. As for what is going on in the world of RIDs - I am baffled except to say a cross of TB has always been welcome into the breed and a "modern" Irish draught was inevitable as the expectation moved toward performance.
		
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I totally agree with everything said here.


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## Rowreach (24 March 2010)

TinyTrigger, thank you for that, you have said everything I wanted to say and more besides


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## Halfstep (24 March 2010)

I grew up riding in Ireland in the "last days" of the good Irish Sports Horse, when the progeny of King of Diamonds, Clover Hill, Balinvella, Errigal's Flight, Chairlift, Sea Crest, etc still dominated the Show Jumping leader boards.  But, breeding was indiscriminate, poor mares were used, conformation faults were ignored, and I like a lot of Irish riders soon realised that for performance and reliability, the European warmblood studbooks were producing better quality horses. 

I was initially very ambivalent about the introduction of WB stallions to the ISH. However, acknowledging that the quality of the ISH has declined over the last 15 years or so, I now find myself applauding this advance.  Quite simply, I want to see Irish horses dominating the SJ and perhaps even dressage rings in future. 

However, no matter how good the stallions are, if they are not used on decent mares the whole thing will be pointless.


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## TinyTrigger (24 March 2010)

Halfstep said:



			But, breeding was indiscriminate, poor mares were used, conformation faults were ignored, 

However, no matter how good the stallions are, if they are not used on decent mares the whole thing will be pointless. 

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So true. Again, it's the problem that anyone who has a mare (of any type, good or bad) wants to breed from it (mostly from that godforsaken stallion down the road!) which is a huge problem. I think the stallion owners here need to start being picky - hard as money is involved - and only breeding to mares that are either approved by their society or whom they think are suitable for their stallion.


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## Irishlife (24 March 2010)

Hi Guys, the part of the country where I live probably has the densest population of stallions RID, Connemara and the vox populi is "wouldn't touch one of them foreigns" except amongst the more enlightened.

During the Celtic Tiger, a lot of people farming realised a "mare would pay more than a cow" and the indiscriminate breeding of mares began, this became a money go round of buying and selling sometimes quite enormous sums being exchanged. One stallion owner I recall trawled the area in a trailer picking up mares and covering them with his stallion! 

Things have changed now there are economic challenges and people are prepared to sell for anyprice. It is heartbreaking for genuine breeders who are feeling the pinch at Goresbridge and Cavan and I think the days of elite foal sales are over for now.  I despair these days when I see around me two RID mares in a field both bought for 10,000 good breeding but only average mares, one lame and both by all accounts abandoned. Again someone else aquired a whole band of mares last year now all in poor condition and due to foal with some lovely breeding Western Promise, Renkum Englishman.

Stop me or I will be here forever.

We need quality bread and butter horses, hunters and RC types, we need to preserve our draughts, make more use of good TBs  and go for gold breeding the elite - as a nation we really are most fortunate and it is up to us all to breed the best we can.


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## Halfstep (24 March 2010)

Irishlife said:



			we need to preserve our draughts, make more use of good TBs
		
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Nail on head here I think.


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## Simsar (24 March 2010)

Irishlife said:



			I am always amazed at the number of people who breed horses who really do not know what good conformation is let alone how to breed a horse for a given purpose.  
Eothain do you think that this will change by using Warmblood stallions instead of the traditional RID/TB's or IDx's?? Would this be different if Ireland's equine industry wasn't subsidised?

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Eothain said:



			Our glorious custodians of Draught breeding have even made the rules in such a way that if Clover Hill or the King Of Diamonds himself came up for inspection today, that they would be ineligible for inclusion in the Studbook. Which is a bit rich considering that they made the Irish Draught relevant back in the day. Our 'Draught' men and women should be ashamed of themselves for they have completely failed the horse they claim to love. Hell, even the original Irish Draught breed policy from 1925 is more radical than what has been proposed up until now when the HSI decided to shake things up. If these horses are supposed to be our foundation as the Draught-folk tell us so often, then at least make them a foundation worth building on. The modern Draught mare should be closer to the old half-bred mares. That is a breed moving forward. People are trying to get the modern Draughts to be performers at a reasonable level.
Now I do agree with you re the exclusion of TB/Conny blood from the studbook, but I have to disagree with the modern draught being closer to half breds, is there not room for both so you can still breed the modern half breds and not loose bone?? That IMHO is the breed moving forwards and accepting that there are different types within the breed.

These Grange Bouncer types have nothing to contribute to Irish breeding, draught or sport horse.
Is grange bouncer not the more sporty type of ID that you say we should be aiming towards(Grade A, and light enough to event to a decent level)? Now I could be wrong here but did you not say that you have a part bred by Classic Vision RID and a couple of others with good RID sires or grand sires?? If so then surely you do still see the need for the RID contribution in your breeding program and Irish breeding in general, Cruisings Mickey Finn is ID sports horse through and through!!
The simple fact is, that when we were on top of the world way back in the day, the Europeans used our bloodlines to improve their own and take over. Leaving us behind. I absolutely refuse to believe that the ISH as a showjumping breed is dead and buried, so as the old saying goes, turnaround is fair play!Good on you for not giving up on them, I just think that by adding all the warmblood breeds you are selling out on the stock that put Ireland in such a great position to start of with, with the need for more TB blood again in SJ and eventing Ireland is surely in a good position to take back what was once there's!!

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Halfstep said:



			However, no matter how good the stallions are, if they are not used on decent mares the whole thing will be pointless. Precisely

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Irishlife said:



			I despair these days when I see around me two RID mares in a field both bought for 10,000 good breeding but only average mares, one lame and both by all accounts abandoned. Again someone else acquired a whole band of mares last year now all in poor condition and due to foal with some lovely breeding Western Promise, Renkum Englishman.It's all very good and well them being put to good stallions but if they are not nurtured properly from day one, then you still end up with a worthless horse good breeding or not!

We need quality bread and butter horses, hunters and RC types, we need to preserve our draughts, make more use of good TBs  and go for gold breeding the elite - as a nation we really are most fortunate and it is up to us all to breed the best we can. Spot on

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Just my thoughts and questions, I'm looking for a discussion not an arguement.


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## Irishlife (24 March 2010)

Simsar, some great points.

The best horse I ever owned (for 25years I might add) was Irish 3/4TB 1/4 RID 9" bone 16.2hh hunted , evented, show jumped bred wonderful foals, she was so special it brought tears to your eyes, sadly I only had colts from her and could not have stood a stallion at that time.

As I think I said before, modern IDs are no different to modern warmbloods, that is to say, their "modern perfomance attributes" came about by judicious use of good TB stallions.

There is a divide over type and in some ways the old guard do have a point regarding preservation of type but moving ahead slowly but surely there is no harm in categorising draughts into sports draughts and traditional. Who is to say that in time a real old traditional type would not appear as a performance sire if his crosses with TBs or other types perform. 

The half bred to my mind will always be RID x TB rather than a sporty draught and from that cross depending on the proportion of blood in the RID you could have a heavyweight hunter, middleweight or something that is even near 3/4 bred. It is important therefore to examine pedigree, decide on what type you want to breed and choose the right draught.

I think in one way the Appendix system is a mistake as that really does seem to dilute the bloodlines. I stand to be corrected on that.

Many small IDs are top class show cobs too and there is one stud here that specialises in dressage with IDs (look up a horse called Beezies Sue RID). This is the magic of the draught horse. 

Again I stand to be corrected but if a warmblood stallion is fully approved in the studbook, I believe any offspring would be eligible for mare premiums and also colt retention although there are specific premiums for "Irish bred" colts and fillies.  

It gets awfully complicated!!


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## Halfstep (24 March 2010)

Just to throw something else into the mix:

The most successful studbook in the world for sports horses is the KWPN. This is a completely open studbook. They have their original dutch horses, like the Gederlanders and the original crosses born in the Netherlands which were classed as Dutch Warmbloods. However, to develop the success of the breed, they will accept and grade a stallion who meets their criteria, no matter what its origin. TBs, Trakheners, even German horses LOL . They have exceptionally stringent standards, however, both for stallions and most importantly, for graded mares.  But it is the openness of their book that has led to the development of the "breed" into the modern, versatile, sports horse that it is today. My KWPN gelding's sire is by a trakehener stallion (kostolany), out of Donnerhall mare (German WB) , and his dam is by Ladykiller (british TB) out of a German Oldenburg mare).  The thing is that both his parents were graded and performance tested, I can look up his sire's breeding indices online, and see his dam's complete competition record - all in the same place.  

I suppose what I am getting at is that perhaps the RID breed could be protected and developed along lines equivalent to the Dutch Gederlander: i.e. it has a role in the greater sports horse studbook development but can also be preserved in its own "section" for pure breds, which would follow the same or similar strict rules for grading as the main stud book.


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## Simsar (24 March 2010)

Some valid points, I have more to say but of to the pub so will have to wait till later


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## GrassHorse (24 March 2010)

I understand the problem Irish breeders are having. There is simple very few irish sport horse stallions that have jumped at international level. At the moment you have to breed to a warmblood. It would be nice, in the future, to breed the progeny back to Irish stallions. I wonder will the horse board improve things?


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## Simsar (24 March 2010)

Halfstep said:



			I suppose what I am getting at is that perhaps the RID breed could be protected and developed along lines equivalent to the Dutch Gederlander: i.e. it has a role in the greater sports horse studbook development but can also be preserved in its own "section" for pure breds, which would follow the same or similar strict rules for grading as the main stud book.
A brilliant analysis and forward way of thinking.

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GrassHorse said:



			I understand the problem Irish breeders are having. There is simple very few Irish sport horse stallions that have jumped at international level. At the moment you have to breed to a warmblood. It would be nice, in the future, to breed the progeny back to Irish stallions. I wonder will the horse board improve things?
I think that it is kind of like being stuck on a roundabout trying to get somewhere, you can either take the easy, quick option first exit/warmblood or, you can take the long route third exit/traditional ISH/ID and as Eothain says do as the Europeans did. Why are there very few ISH at international level, because a lot of breeders have already chosen the first exit on the roundabout, or because they REALLY cannot compete on an international stage?????

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Simon Simsar Stud


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## Eothain (25 March 2010)

I just wrote a huge long reply but it wouldn't let me post it because "the token window had expired". I can't believe it! Time to start again ... ... ...


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## lillith (25 March 2010)

WOW the approval system for Irish w/b's sounds like a godsend to me. A registry that has rigorous stallion approval, inspects mare AND yanks licences if progeny isnt up to scratch? Not for everyone but one hell of an idea. I could see it encouraging stallion owners to be more selective about the mares they breed to, less quantity, more quality. Nice.


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## TinyTrigger (25 March 2010)

Eothain said:



			I just wrote a huge long reply but it wouldn't let me post it because "the token window had expired". I can't believe it! Time to start again ... ... ...
		
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That makes me SO mad. Happened yesterday to me.


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## Simsar (25 March 2010)

I know you said a huge long reply but twelve hours of writing is just ridiculous, hurry up I'm waiting


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## GrassHorse (25 March 2010)

The roundabout comparison is true. If warmbloods had not been used in Ireland there may well be more Irish horses competing at international level. But if you look at the Irish sport horse stallions available now, they seem heavy. Maybe Cruising will leave us a few nice sons. Flexable is quite popular now among traditional breeders as is Clover Flush. These stallions have jumped at 1.60m. Also, the traditional breeders have stayed away from warmbloods ( they say Dumbloods) so Im sure there are plenty traditionally bred mares left in Ireland.


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## Maesfen (25 March 2010)

This has been a fascinating thread to read, so thank you to all that have contributed.
As an outsider, can I just say that for me, your Bread and Butter horses are the bees knees as they are, they are so versatile.  I'm pretty sure that many potential customers would regret the introduction of dumbloods into that breeding equation and your market would suffer as a consequence as dumblood crosses are two a penny over here plus the fact you'd likely have soundness problems which aren't usually associated with your B & Bs.  
I remember dumbloods being referred to as such when they first started coming over here and I've not met any since that would make me change my mind; pretty? yes, athletic? yes, thick as two short planks? YES!

Bread and Butter breeders, be proud of your heritage, don't throw it away on a quick fix.


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## htobago (25 March 2010)

From another 'outsider' - I just wanted to say: what a fascinating and informative thread! 

It has also given me a lot of helpful answers to the general question about 'importance of breed-type' that I posted recently (which I must have worded very badly - as I don't think people understood what I was getting at; sorry!).

This whole debate somehow reminds me of discussions about the shift from 'Old Labour' to 'New Labour' in the late-1980s and 1990s. Some of the comments about RIDs and 'traditional' ISHs remind me of discussions in which the 'Old Labour' leader Michael Foot was described as 'admirable but unelectable'. And the 'modernising' New Labourites (a bit like the Continental WBs) were criticised for being 'all form and no substance'...


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## Simsar (25 March 2010)

htobago, Don't bring bloody politics into it or we will be here forever!!!


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## Irishlife (25 March 2010)

Pat,

That is hilarious! The two broods I have who have some DB/WB call it what you will are thick even with diluted blood! One I would describe as special needs, she is oblivious to everything. My others are TB or trad Irish and they are sharp and clever. 

However, I will make an exception for the French horses (SF) they are clever and handy and retain a bit of the fifth leg and gutsy attitude. Then the French are quite clever using trotters, Anglo Arabs and TBs all of which have smarts.

There are certain warmbloods creeping into hunter breeding Limmerick (incredible number of progeny winning hunter youngstock at Dublin), Into The West, Lux Z, Ricardo Z and a few others with letters on the end!

Glad you enjoyed the debate - we are still waiting for Eothain to come back to the table!


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## htobago (25 March 2010)

Simsar said:



			htobago, Don't bring bloody politics into it or we will be here forever!!!

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Sorry - that was a bit of a random comment. Just thinking aloud - a really bad habit, I know!


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## Simsar (25 March 2010)

htobago
Thats OK, glad you are enjoying it, it's nice when you get a proper debate on here not just bitching. I did see your other thread but like you said I didn't really get where you were coming from.


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## volatis (25 March 2010)

My warmbloods are anything but dumb, maybe thats the Trakehner blood I choose. Some blood lines say the R and D lines are know for their tractable and ridable temperments so maybe that is where they are considered dumb.


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## GrassHorse (25 March 2010)

It is obvious that the dumblood gene is dominent to the clever Irish Draught gene, this is the problem. I have the cleverest RID mare, she knows things, but her three year old filly by a warblood is irretrievably stupid. I concerned for her.  Someone mentioned the stallion Into the West earlier. I know a knowledgable man who hates warmbloods with a vengence, however he says Into The West makes beautiful horses.


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## Irishlife (25 March 2010)

Sadly Into the West is now deceased. He did throw excellent stock. I bred the very last colt foal from him out of a Captain Clover mare.   He is doing well with his current people.


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## GrassHorse (25 March 2010)

I hear Jack of Diamonds really stamps his stock. A friend of mine seen him last year but didn't like him. Then she seen his young stock at a show and said they're really nice. He has nice breeding with Battleburn and menelex appearing?


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## htobago (25 March 2010)

Simsar said:



			htobago
Thats OK, glad you are enjoying it, it's nice when you get a proper debate on here not just bitching. I did see your other thread but like you said I didn't really get where you were coming from.

Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing - how lovely to see a proper, intelligent, calm and courteous debate! This thread is a textbook example of how Internet forum debates should be conducted - well, apart from my daft political analogies, that is!

Sorry about that other thread - I really must have phrased the questions very awkwardly - sometimes it must be hard to believe that I actually make a living from writing!


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## Simsar (25 March 2010)

I have just been looking on here http://www.horsesportireland.ie/_fileupload/StallionBook2009ISHStallions.pdf
and after looking at most of the traditional ISH's on here I think that perhaps if they were used a little more they would certainly be holding there own against some of the warmblood sires, there are some with great pedigrees that just don't seem to have had many mares for the amount of years they have been standing!! Roundabout again????????


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## Maesfen (25 March 2010)

Irishlife said:



			Pat,

That is hilarious! The two broods I have who have some DB/WB call it what you will are thick even with diluted blood! One I would describe as special needs, she is oblivious to everything. My others are TB or trad Irish and they are sharp and clever. 

However, I will make an exception for the French horses (SF) they are clever and handy and retain a bit of the fifth leg and gutsy attitude. Then the French are quite clever using trotters, Anglo Arabs and TBs all of which have smarts.

Glad you enjoyed the debate - we are still waiting for Eothain to come back to the table!
		
Click to expand...

Even my blacksmith calls them dumb blondes too, lol!
I'll give you that about the French ones, they do seem a lot brighter but I don't help them at all, I can't speak any French at all! 

Where is Eothain anyway?


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## GrassHorse (25 March 2010)

The problem is the breeders with the best mares are using warmbloods. It would be nice if the breeder would retain one traditionally bred mare to continue breeding. It doesnt really matter about the geldings, they are bred for the market. Cavalier was the first warmblood stallion to really gain the attention of Irish breeders. He was a good horse, there is no doubting this. Maybe, as the gentleman alluded to earlier, it could be that he had some Selle Francias blood? Or maybe he got the best mares when he arrived in Ireland.


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## Irishlife (25 March 2010)

Re Battleburn reference from grassroots, below are the bloodlines of two of my mares as examples of the type of Irish mares showing how in ISH breeding like Northern Dancer in TBs e.g., there are stallions that very nearly always appear in 5th generation ISH pedigrees somewhere.

Mare 1 - Modern mare with some warmblood. 

Sire line; Stormhill Miller TB (GB) et al
Dam line; 1st dam by Furisto (Hann fully approved main ISH studbook)
              2nd dam by Laughtons Flight ISH (by  King of Diamonds)
              3rd dam by Darantus (TB)
              4th dam by Battleburn (TB) (sire of Boomerang)

Around 66% TB 25% Hann 9% RID = ISH

Mare 2 - Traditional Irish mare (Grade C SJ)

Sire line; Captain Clover ISH (by Clover Hill)
Dam Line; 1st dam by Easy Lift (TB)
               2nd dam Brooklawn Purple AID (by Powerswood Purple et al back to Galty Boy)
               3rd dam Silver Run  (Breeding Unknown)

So this one is TB and ID blood only

Tried to find an emoticon for bloody confused and better go and ride something.


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## Irishlife (25 March 2010)

Forgot - Namely King of Diamonds and Clover Hill as an example of two prolific horses

OK Gone Now


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## GrassHorse (25 March 2010)

Its is good to use a bit of warmblood for sure. It will had something to your stock. Its just sad to see so much of it. The Germans didnt like ladykiller when he first arrived in Germany, where would they be without him? He produced great stallions off the German mares he covered. Maybe we should be looking to this in Ireland. At least we would have WB/ISH stallions out of Irish marelines. Irco Mena is a good examlpe of this. Maybe Royal Concorde could be the next Irco Mena?


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## Simsar (25 March 2010)

Really hoping Eothain comes back to play, i don't want to start answering my own questions
One more question then i will shut up as I am probably getting boring now and there is already LOADS to answer. Eothain if you think Cruising is the best horse ever (which I am not denying) why are you using warmbloods, why not try to breed something along the same lines to emulate him and pay homage to his breeding and talent?
OK so that was more than one question but that's it now I promise.


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## GinnieRedwings (25 March 2010)

MFH9 said:



			I remember dumbloods being referred to as such when they first started coming over here and I've not met any since that would make me change my mind; pretty? yes, athletic? yes, thick as two short planks? YES!

Bread and Butter breeders, be proud of your heritage, don't throw it away on a quick fix.
		
Click to expand...

I haven't managed to get to the end of this infinitely interesting thread without feeling compelled to say something. As a French hobby breeder, living in England and mostly crossing young German warmblood stallions with my very wonderful "bread & butter" and impeccably bred ISH mare (Rich Rebel xx X Clover Hill X Legaun Prince), who will hop over the 5' fence, when rugged up and full of foal if she feels the grass is greener... who would have been an absoilute top class show jumper without that accident... who is waaaayyy too sharp for her own good...
Anyway a couple of comments:
Preserving a breed is all well and good if inbreeding doesn't catch up with you: I agree with Eothain whole heartedly: bring some quality from abroad - Irish breeding some time ago reached that point where the genepool was so shallow, it just stopped functionning - that's the payback of too much success. Same thing happened to French breeding about 25-30 years ago. The SF was so inbred that every other horse bred, no matter how well bred, had navicular disease and was only good to throw away by the time they were 12 years old (that's the lucky ones!). Then came Japeloup de Luze (remember him? 15hh little bum high black thing 50% French Trotter 50% TB), won the Seoul individual in SJ, gave Milton a run for his money! Then French breeders had an epiphany! Deepen the genepool, bring in other breeds to improve the SF (some TB of course, but also French Trotters and some European Warmbloods) and they were back at the top of their game, whilst still preserving a "type" to the SF. It is inbreeding that makes horses stupid and accentuates poor conformation - add a little foreign blood and suddenly the best of both lines come together in the new generation - so you get the pretty athletic uphill of the dumblood, with the clever huge heart and incredible jumping ability of the ISH - best of both worlds... What's wrong with that?
And by the way, I am so glad there is so much enthusiasm and passion here!


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## GrassHorse (25 March 2010)

Point taken about inbreeding!


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## Simsar (25 March 2010)

GinnieRedwings said:



			I haven't managed to get to the end of this infinitely interesting thread without feeling compelled to say something. As a French hobby breeder, living in England and mostly crossing young German warmblood stallions with my very wonderful "bread & butter" and impeccably bred ISH mare (Rich Rebel xx X Clover Hill X Legaun Prince), who will hop over the 5' fence, when rugged up and full of foal if she feels the grass is greener... who would have been an absoilute top class show jumper without that accident... who is waaaayyy too sharp for her own good...
Anyway a couple of comments:
Preserving a breed is all well and good if inbreeding doesn't catch up with you: I agree with Eothain whole heartedly: bring some quality from abroad - Irish breeding some time ago reached that point where the genepool was so shallow, it just stopped functionning - that's the payback of too much success. Same thing happened to French breeding about 25-30 years ago. The SF was so inbred that every other horse bred, no matter how well bred, had navicular disease and was only good to throw away by the time they were 12 years old (that's the lucky ones!). Then came Japeloup de Luze (remember him? 15hh little bum high black thing 50% French Trotter 50% TB), won the Seoul individual in SJ, gave Milton a run for his money! Then French breeders had an epiphany! Deepen the genepool, bring in other breeds to improve the SF (some TB of course, but also French Trotters and some European Warmbloods) and they were back at the top of their game, whilst still preserving a "type" to the SF. It is inbreeding that makes horses stupid and accentuates poor conformation - add a little foreign blood and suddenly the best of both lines come together in the new generation - so you get the pretty athletic uphill of the dumblood, with the clever huge heart and incredible jumping ability of the ISH - best of both worlds... What's wrong with that?
And by the way, I am so glad there is so much enthusiasm and passion here!
		
Click to expand...

I see your point and as I said earlier I think that it was a very bad idea to close the studbook.

I don't agree with adding warmblood to the mix. I don't agree that by crossing the two you only get the best of both breeds it is not only inbreeding that accentuates poor conformation it is also indiscriminate breeding, by crossing two different breeds you are not fixing anything into the future stock as there is more of a mix to get throw backs from and that is to the detrement of both breeds.

It has been proven time and again that a cross of TB or Connie in the ID pedigree adds athleticism without losing the bone, type or temperament. If the studbook were to 're-open' I would hope you would quite quickly find that the genepool would increase quite considerably.

IMHO the main reason that the genepool became so shallow was because breeders stopped looking for stallions that suited there mares and that would improve there stock and all followed the same fashionable trends of Pride of Shaunlara, King of Diamonds and Clover Hill and yes like you say we are now paying through the teeth for there success.


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## Eothain (26 March 2010)

Ok, here we go. I'm dreading starting again! Where to start ... ...

In reference to modern draught breeding; I think that trying to have Draughts as a purebred has utterly blown up in peoples faces. They should be bred to type. A friend of ours owns one of the best ID mares I've ever seen, problem is she's by a thoroughbred!!! She's by Market Square, a horse who's half-bred progeny if true to the type should be included in the Draught studbook. I'm not for a second saying that they should end up with Arabian dish faces but the old coarse and rugged type has no place in laying the foundation for modern sports breeding. Look at Huntingfield Rebel, Grange Bouncer and co. They're hailed as out cross horses to the King himself and Clover Hill but what of relevance are they producing? Nothing! They very much still have a place as stallions but I'll get to that in a minute. Huntingfield Rebel covered more mares in 2007 than other stallion. We're going to be flooded with his stock. He's 20 years old and hasn't produced anything of significance yet, he won't now. Does anyone actually think that he is going to have stock at the 2020 Olympics? In all honesty, it's not likely.
The ID needs another Flagmount King or Ginger Dick. They got jumpers, infact Flagmount King is the only ID sire to have progeny jumping in the Spring Grand Prix league this year. The ID needs to contribute something. The foundation of all our breeding needs to improve as the rivals improve! This is much shorter than what I said last night, partially because I forgot what I said!!!

*highlight, right click, copy*

Yes, my mares do have a proportion of Draught blood. I've one mare by Classic Vision in foal to the Saddlers Wells horse Well Chosen. This year she goes to Watermill Swatch. I've an Ojasper mare who's dam is by Flagmount King and a Musical Pursuit mare who is out of a Corran Ginger mare. Lets assess those Draught Stallions and see why I've ok-ed them!

Classic Vision, international showjumper, is by Ginger Dick who sired international jumpers like Atlantic Watt and Flash La Silla. Classic Vision's dam Lady Glen produced the horse Midnight Call with whom Edward Doyle competed in several Puissance classes on, I think he either placed or won the Puissance in Dublin. Lady Glen is by Flagmount Diamond who is a full brother to Flagmount King. So the draught in my mares pedigrees are what I called useful draughts. Corran Ginger is also a son of Ginger Dick.

People then go and bring up the use of thoroughbreds. What thoroughbreds? Name me the thoroughbred sires of jumpers? Master Imp is dead! The problem is that with the Irish racing industry becoming the best in the world, the thoroughbred changed. The old big rangey horse is dead and buried. Our National Hunt stallions are now flat-stayer stallions. The Horse Board introduced the Elite Thoroughbred Scheme for stallions with a timeform rating of 110+ to get automatic approval. It's far from perfect, but it has thrown us one stallion whom is a diamond in the rough. I'm pretty sure that only myself and tinytrigger have heard of him. Musical Pursuit. He is a stallion to watch out for. His stock are tough and hardy but by god can they jump. My mare is a full sister to a horse called Esker Encore, who's rider has tipped him to be a star of the future, he said as a 5 year old that he was the best young horse he ever had.
The fact is that the thoroughbreds of today are a far cry from the thoroughbreds of yesteryear who put us on the map. Our blood must come now from the Continent. France in particular. What we must do is use their horses to add the blood we need to our mare herd and get the blood stallions we need going forward! I plan on crossing my Classic Vision mare with Ephebe For Ever next year. My Musical Pursuit mare with Cabdula Du Tillard or Dollar Du Murier next year and the other the year after. I'm a fecker for planning years in advance.

Ephebe For Ever, Jaguar Mail, Baltimore, Tinarana's Inspector and a horse like Desir Du Chateau will give Irish breeders the blood they need going forward to create new lines. Grasshorse mentioned Royal Concorde, if he doesn't become a prolific sire of eventers, I'll be stunned!!!!!!!

You see, I'm going to be crossing my mares to these superstar foreign horses with the sole hope of getting fillies that can be crossed back to the young Irish stallions to create again new lines. Our breeding has become stagnant and with nice stallions out there like Ringfort Cruise, Cruisings MF, Cara Touche and Samgemjee we need to not be continuing to offer them mares with tired old pedigrees. Our showjumpers need foreign blood its that simple. If they didn't, then our current batch of stallions would have played a more significant role in jumping breeding.

Where are the sons of Errigal Flight, Laughtons Flight, Puissance, Clover Brigade, Coevers Diamond Boy, Clover Echo? These horses have served us well over the years, some better than others, but no sons have been brought forward to continue their line. Thats a crying shame. If we lose these, we lose more than a little bit of our backbone. Cruising has been our ambassador from a relatively small pool of foals of only 1,200 which for a horse of his age isn't a lot but these horses have been his wingmen. True, they might have not produced as much as we would like but their record is not to be sniffed at. So where are their sons? Over the coming few years, I'll be looking in to buying some colt foals of theirs with the plan to retain them as stallions, get them approved and lease them to studs in Ireland, all the time while crossing my current mares to foreign horses to get fillies. Its a long, long, long term process but if it creates new, exciting breeding lines that puts us back in the hunt, then happy days!

So, finally, the bread and butter horses. Where to for them? Simple really.
When I take over the job as Breeding Manager with HSI, I will do as the Dutch did and separate the studbook with distinct breeding policies for Showjumpers, Eventers and Riding Horses. Horses like Grange Bouncer and Huntingfield Rebel would still have their place then to breed those riding horses that everyone, except me apparently, loves! If a breeder managed to create a superstar showjumper using traditional means then fair play to him but the chances of doing so are very very slim. I mean Cruisings MF has a pedigree filled with proper Irish performance sires. Cruising, Sky Boy, Diamond Serpent and Ozymandias have all provided their fair share of good horses so its really no surprise that Micky Finn should be excelling in the sport.

Last paragraph, I promise!!!

I have a yearling filly by Clover Flush out my Duca Di Busted mare. She'll never be ridden because a horse broke out to her last year and broke her leg but thankfully she healed and is now headed for the breeding barn much earlier than expected. I'm going to try to keep her for breeding strictly traditional horses from. There will be exceptions of course for a horse like Womanizer but for the most part, it'll be the likes of Cruisings MF, Ringfort Cruise and Cara Touche that she'll be slutting it up with.
Her mother is like my crown jewel. Along with the Musical Pursuit mare, they are the centrepieces of my mare herd. This year she's going to Puissance and next year, she'll be ai-ed to Cumano, my 2nd favourite horse off all time, then Cornet Obolensky in 2012 if all goes according to plan. There I go making distant plans again!

This is vastly different to what got deleted the other night but I think it still gets across most of what I'm trying to say. I may have to clarify some of what I said. If I remember more of what got deleted, I'll include it in a future post which hopefully won't be so long!

And Simsar, what kind of time is half five on a thursday evening to go to the pub?


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## Simsar (26 March 2010)

Eothain said:



			Ok, here we go. I'm dreading starting again! Where to start ... ...
In reference to modern draught breeding; I think that trying to have Draughts as a purebred has utterly blown up in peoples faces. They should be bred to type. A friend of ours owns one of the best ID mares I've ever seen, problem is she's by a thoroughbred!!! She's by Market Square, a horse who's half-bred progeny if true to the type should be included in the Draught studbook. I'm not for a second saying that they should end up with Arabian dish faces but the old coarse and rugged type has no place in laying the foundation for modern sports breedingBut the problem is they do have a role to play in todays modern sports horses, if you didn't have theses types you would not have your crosses in the first place, whether they are 7/8,3/4,1/2 or 1/4 breds the TB added the quality to the traditional types and then you can breed from there to produce your KOD's and CH's which in turn produce sports horses of more quality.. Look at Huntingfield Rebel, Grange Bouncer and co. They're hailed as out cross horses to the King himself and Clover Hill but what of relevance are they producing? Nothing! They very much still have a place as stallions but I'll get to that in a minute. Huntingfield Rebel covered more mares in 2007 than other stallion. We're going to be flooded with his stock. He's 20 years old and hasn't produced anything of significance yet, he won't now. Does anyone actually think that he is going to have stock at the 2020 Olympics? In all honesty, it's not likely.
The ID needs another Flagmount King or Ginger Dick. They got jumpers, infact Flagmount King is the only ID sire to have progeny jumping in the Spring Grand Prix league this year. The ID needs to contribute something. The foundation of all our breeding needs to improve as the rivals improve! This is much shorter than what I said last night, partially because I forgot what I said!!!The thing is that there are not the old boys who know the bloodlines and what crosses go well anymore, and those that are still left are ignored and told they are living in the dark ages!

*highlight, right click, copy*

Yes, my mares do have a proportion of Draught blood. I've one mare by Classic Vision in foal to the Saddlers Wells horse Well Chosen. This year she goes to Watermill Swatch. I've an Ojasper mare who's dam is by Flagmount King and a Musical Pursuit mare who is out of a Corran Ginger mare. Lets assess those Draught Stallions and see why I've ok-ed them!

Classic Vision, international showjumper, is by Ginger Dick who sired international jumpers like Atlantic Watt and Flash La Silla. Classic Vision's dam Lady Glen produced the horse Midnight Call with whom Edward Doyle competed in several Puissance classes on, I think he either placed or won the Puissance in Dublin. Lady Glen is by Flagmount Diamond who is a full brother to Flagmount King. So the draught in my mares pedigrees are what I called useful draughts. Corran Ginger is also a son of Ginger Dick.

People then go and bring up the use of thoroughbreds. What thoroughbreds? Name me the thoroughbred sires of jumpers? Master Imp is dead! The problem is that with the Irish racing industry becoming the best in the world, the thoroughbred changed. The old big rangey horse is dead and buried. Our National Hunt stallions are now flat-stayer stallions. The Horse Board introduced the Elite Thoroughbred Scheme for stallions with a timeform rating of 110+ to get automatic approval. It's far from perfect, but it has thrown us one stallion whom is a diamond in the rough. I'm pretty sure that only myself and tinytrigger have heard of him. Musical Pursuit. He is a stallion to watch out for. His stock are tough and hardy but by god can they jump. My mare is a full sister to a horse called Esker Encore, who's rider has tipped him to be a star of the future, he said as a 5 year old that he was the best young horse he ever had.
The fact is that the thoroughbreds of today are a far cry from the thoroughbreds of yesteryear who put us on the map. Our blood must come now from the Continent. France in particular. What we must do is use their horses to add the blood we need to our mare herd and get the blood stallions we need going forward! I plan on crossing my Classic Vision mare with Ephebe For Ever next year. My Musical Pursuit mare with Cabdula Du Tillard or Dollar Du Murier next year and the other the year after. I'm a fecker for planning years in advance. Some fab pedigrees minus the foreigners

Ephebe For Ever, Jaguar Mail, Baltimore, Tinarana's Inspector and a horse like Desir Du Chateau will give Irish breeders the blood they need going forward to create new lines. Grasshorse mentioned Royal Concorde, if he doesn't become a prolific sire of eventers, I'll be stunned!!!!!!!

You see, I'm going to be crossing my mares to these superstar foreign horses with the sole hope of getting fillies that can be crossed back to the young Irish stallions to create again new lines. Our breeding has become stagnant and with nice stallions out there like Ringfort Cruise, Cruisings MF, Cara Touche and Samgemjee we need to not be continuing to offer them mares with tired old pedigrees. Our showjumpers need foreign blood its that simple. If they didn't, then our current batch of stallions would have played a more significant role in jumping breeding.As i said earlier would those ID sport horses stallions have had a better chance of sireing good stock if people didn't follow fashions in breeding in the first place, first KOD,CH and POS and now warmblood?????

Where are the sons of Errigal Flight, Laughtons Flight, Puissance, Clover Brigade, Coevers Diamond Boy, Clover Echo? These horses have served us well over the years, some better than others, but no sons have been brought forward to continue their line. Thats a crying shame. If we lose these, we lose more than a little bit of our backboneNail and head!. Cruising has been our ambassador from a relatively small pool of foals of only 1,200 which for a horse of his age isn't a lot but these horses have been his wingmen. True, they might have not produced as much as we would like but their record is not to be sniffed at. So where are their sons? Over the coming few years, I'll be looking in to buying some colt foals of theirs with the plan to retain them as stallions, get them approved and lease them to studs in IrelandDo you mean traditional ISH's, all the time while crossing my current mares to foreign horses to get fillies. Its a long, long, long term process but if it creates new, exciting breeding lines that puts us back in the hunt, then happy days!

So, finally, the bread and butter horses. Where to for them? Simple really.
When I take over the job as Breeding Manager with HSI Drive, determination and delusions of gandure I like it!!, I will do as the Dutch did and separate the studbook with distinct breeding policies for Showjumpers, Eventers and Riding Horses. Horses like Grange Bouncer and Huntingfield Rebel would still have their place then to breed those riding horses that everyone, except me apparently, loves! If a breeder managed to create a superstar showjumper using traditional means then fair play to him but the chances of doing so are very very slim. I mean Cruisings MF has a pedigree filled with proper Irish performance sires. Cruising, Sky Boy, Diamond Serpent and Ozymandias have all provided their fair share of good horses so its really no surprise that Micky Finn should be excelling in the sportIt is not a case of loveing b&b horses it is a case that when breeding you have to think of ALL eventualities and if a traditionally bred ISH doesn't make it onto the international stage with its temp and soundness of mind and body it can still go on to do a job, where many of the warmblood crosses can't. Why not be trying to breed the next Cruising, Jumbo, Crusings MF or Diamond Serpent along similar lines to how they are bred and then it would truely be a winning situation for Irish breeding without doing it of the back of foreign stud books? .

Last paragraph, I promise!!!

I have a yearling filly by Clover Flush out my Duca Di Busted mare. She'll never be ridden because a horse broke out to her last year and broke her leg but thankfully she healed and is now headed for the breeding barn much earlier than expected. I'm going to try to keep her for breeding strictly traditional horses from. There will be exceptions of course for a horse like Womanizer but for the most part, it'll be the likes of Cruisings MF, Ringfort Cruise and Cara Touche that she'll be slutting it up with.
Her mother is like my crown jewel. Along with the Musical Pursuit mare, they are the centrepieces of my mare herd. This year she's going to Puissance and next year, she'll be ai-ed to Cumano, my 2nd favourite horse off all time, then Cornet Obolensky in 2012 if all goes according to plan. There I go making distant plans again!

This is vastly different to what got deleted the other night but I think it still gets across most of what I'm trying to say. I may have to clarify some of what I said. If I remember more of what got deleted, I'll include it in a future post which hopefully won't be so long!

Great debate thanks for coming back!

And Simsar, what kind of time is half five on a thursday evening to go to the pub?It's the best time 5 1/2 hours till closing, plenty of time to drink!

Click to expand...

Simon Simsar Stud


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## Eothain (26 March 2010)

I don't think they would have sired better class with out the foreigners. When you look at videos on youtube of the old Irish horses, it looked more like sheer heart rather than out standing talent that got them around. They were quite unorthadox and cobby. When you watch Rockbarton or Heather Honey or Heather Blaze, you'd think to your self, how in the name of God did they manage to jump around? The problem with the foreigners that came in originally was that they simply weren't good enough. Cavalier, Furisto and a couple of others had a lot to offer but they were hampered by some other yakks that came in and the stigma is still there.
As for the Draught fellas, they are still in the dark ages. Anything they have to offer has been lost in a sea of bitterness to advances in modern sport. The fences are bigger, wider, lighter and cups shallower. In 1975 the courses had no such thing as a related distance or dog leg. The horses could gallop along, fire itself in the air and once they didn't hit the fence on the way up. They wouldn't knock it on the way down. Look at the videos of the old jumpers and listen to them rub off every fence. They'd be eaten alive by Peppermill and Co today. We need the sharpness of those foreigners to quicken the horses and get them up in the air.
Yes, I do mean it'll be traditional ISH colts I'll be looking for. I've not given up on them yet.
One last thing, the unsuccessful foreign horses still have the temperament to go and do other things outside of competition. Look at the sheer numbers of horses exported to America for equitation classes. What do the young Germans learn to ride on? Those 'thick' foreign horses are not as thick as their reputation claims! There are of course exceptions but for the most part ...


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## NeverSayNever (26 March 2010)

................ having just ventured into the world of the ISH (have bought youngster with KOD/CH lines) I am finding this thread fascinating as Ive struggled to get my head round some of the breeding and types - first lesson being that an ID can be 1/2 tb!   I still dont feel as if i really know an awful lot about it, but i am proud to have a horse who is through and through traditional ISH


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## Halfstep (26 March 2010)

Eothain, you make some very good points and it seems to me that you *SHOULD* be employed to bash some sense into the HSI!!!! 

. 

The split seems to be between those who want the ISH to be an elite sports horse, and those who want them to be good allrounders for the leisure market. This is a real dichotomy in horse breeding in Britain and Ireland, but not one the Europeans seem to struggle with.  Again I point to the Dutch. They breed top sports horses and very good amateur's horses alike.  Again, good conformation, trainability, athleticism and soundness are required no matter what job the horse will end up doing.


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## Simsar (26 March 2010)

I do actually agree with the sentiment behind your thoughts but not the way of getting there, I may well be living in the dark ages but, I believe that with the right mix of TB & ID/ISH blood you can still breed international standard horses, it's just a case of producing them to that standard.

Glad to hear that you haven't completely given up on the traditional ISH, I was fearing that us British would be be the only ones using them soon.

I can only speak from experience with regards to the warmbloods and amateurs, I have previously worked with numerous warmbloods who had been bought on there breeding, looks and WOW factor but the amateur owners couldn't ride one side of them. Maybe that says more for the amateur riders in Europe than here!!

I think that a lot of the studbooks here and in Ireland need a shake up, shall we volunteer Eothain??


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## no_no_nanette (26 March 2010)

Simsar said:



			I do actually agree with the sentiment behind your thoughts but not the way of getting there, I may well be living in the dark ages but, I believe that with the right mix of TB & ID/ISH blood you can still breed international standard horses, it's just a case of producing them to that standard.

Glad to hear that you haven't completely given up on the traditional ISH, I was fearing that us British would be be the only ones using them soon.

I can only speak from experience with regards to the warmbloods and amateurs, I have previously worked with numerous warmbloods who had been bought on there breeding, looks and WOW factor but the amateur owners couldn't ride one side of them. Maybe that says more for the amateur riders in Europe than here!!

I think that a lot of the studbooks here and in Ireland need a shake up, shall we volunteer Eothain??

Click to expand...

Oooh, please do!!!!  And what would your shake-up of the UK studbooks be, simsar?  We know Eothain's ideas for the Irish ones ......


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## Simsar (26 March 2010)

By the sounds of it Eothian would have a little bit of every breed, where as my first policy would be to get rid of all Cobs, Coloureds, Arabs and Warmbloods


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## no_no_nanette (26 March 2010)

This is a really interesting debate, and many thanks to simsar and eothain for keeping it going, and sharing their knowledge.  I have an ISH mare by Able AlbertXX out of a Diamond Lad mare - one of the things that I have heard frequently when I've been over in Ireland is how valued Diamond Lad was a breeder of outstanding broodmares.  (And this seems to have been the case with my mare's dam, who, amongst the few foals that she bred, could number several winners in the showring including Advance Party, who did extremely well with Katie Jerram over here.)  But its an elderly population now, and I don't hear of others coming in to replace him 

eothain, really interesting to be introduced to a new name for me in Musical Pursuit : where does he stand?  Any photos available?  And, of course, the inevitable question - do you know if he is available just natural cover?


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## Simsar (26 March 2010)

NO NO look on Page 9 of this link
http://www.horsesportireland.ie/_fileupload/StallionBook2009EliteTBs.pdf:D


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## DRSsporthorses (26 March 2010)

Fantastic debate from two very different points of view!!

I understand both sides and I am not discounting the ID, but I do agree with Eothain in many respects of this discussion. I don't believe anyone questions the role of the ID in today's top class eventers, though I do feel there is going to be more and more challenge through a slow chipping away at that dominance by breeds such as the SF and others that are quickly gaining a foothold in the sport. By all means, please continue to breed top-class traditionally-bred horses for this market!

Today's showjumping courses are not those of yesteryear. That is reality. Courses are now extremely difficult tests of both horse and rider, both mentally and physically. Therein lies the conundrum of how the ID fits into the model of a world class showjumping supplier. By tradition, the ID is a big, heavy horse. Granted they have good brains and try their heart out for you and could get a big fence, but their traditional physical characteristics are also what makes it difficult to compete in today's technical sport. The shallow cups, huge wide oxers with no approach, related distances that demand instant impulsion vs. explosive power....yet all with extreme carefulness, quickness, and a horse that can think on the fly are what the sport demands today. These horses require quality in the canter...something I don't see in many IDs. Scope is created by a combination of qualities, not all of which the ID possesses. In short...the sport have evolved beyond what the traditional horses have to offer. Nobody's fault, its just the way the sport has changed over the years. And the old point of view is no longer valid in producing the horse of the future.

Just look at the makeup of the Irish showjumping teams of the past 5 years alone. Just how many traditionally-bred horses are there? I beg you to list them for me? The simple reality is the horses that are most competitive are not traditional, they are dominated by continental breeding....for all the reasons stated above. The foreign studbooks have focused on sport for decades and are reaping the benefits worldwide.

Do I feel that stallions such as Ringfort Cruise (Cruising/Nimmerdor), Royal Concorde (Concorde/KOD), Carmena Z (Carthago/IrcoMena/KOD), Cruisings MF, Clover Flush, the last two closest to traditional of the bunch, and others can play a role in future breeding....YES. But they have to be used correctly. Do I think the ISH can improve as a producer/supplier...YES.  But you are at a starting point decades behind that of the continent. You have to know that going in. I do believe it will improve, but it will take years to catch up.


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## Eothain (26 March 2010)

He's a 16 year old British bred thoroughbred. Owned by a friend of ours Frankie Kiernan in Moyvore, not far from Mullingar in Co Westmeath. He was 2nd in the Dewhurst Stakes beaten by a short head. Frankie is the former Huntsman of our hunt and the former Chairman bred his ID mare to him which my father, the current Huntsman bought the progeny of hence why we have stock by him years before any other of his stock come on stream. If you go on my website www.brosnaviewstables.com and go to the breeding section, you'll see the mare I'm breeding from in action. On the horses for sale page you'll see a full brother to her who was shown in Dublin last year. He's natural cover only. I have my Ojasper x Flagmount King x Euphenism mare in foal to him. I will be selling the foal so feel free to buy!!!

The problem I have with continuing to use the traditional tb/id/ish crosses to breed jumpers is that it just hasn't worked recently. Clover Hill was ridiculed by Draught people and not made enough use of. It was the Sports breeders that got the best out of him. We have sport horse sires like Cruise On, Cougar, Carrick Diamond Lad, Ard Black Cat, Captain Clover, Colin Diamond, Coronea Eagle, Diamond Imp Lad, Furisto's Diamond who haven't lived up to expectations. Many of them are getting good eventers and riding horses but for showjumpers they're simply not good. I would put them in to a separate section in the studbook because they have their uses and allow those people who wish to breed top class international jumping horses access to the Cumano's and Couleur Rubin's that we need going forward yo get the fillies we so desperately need to cross back to those traditional stalwarts so we don't lose sight of our roots. I'm not trying to make the ISH just another eouropean Warmblood. We just need an injection of their best to augment our own


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## Simsar (26 March 2010)

Please don't get me wrong I am not saying what you are doing is wrong, just trying to understand why you are so willing to give up on the good foundations that your predecessors laid down and jump ship at the first sign of trouble, like you have already said a lot of the warmblood breeds are based on the ISH.
I am also not saying that the more draught types should be out competing against the warmbloods, I am not stupid and I do know there limitations, what I am saying is there are traditional (and by traditional I don't mean heavy, I just mean ID/TB's [that could be 3/4 TB the percentage doesn't matter]) ID SH's out there that are more than capable of holding there own at top level given the same production as the warmblood. 
I am not defending the narrow minded people who don't want the breed to move forward, I just think that you can't have one(ISH) without the other(ID). 

Just to add I love the look of Cougar but haven't seen any of his stock, but a friend in Wales has the most stunning Colin Diamond mare (she would literally jump the moon if asked) who is possibly a bit on the heavy side for top level jumping but crossed to a TB and I am sure you would get a superstar. 

Sorry if this doesn't read well got to go back to work so rushing


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## Eothain (26 March 2010)

I wouldn't call it jumping ship. Merely using their weapons against them in the production of showjumpers. Don't worry, I know what you're saying and to be fair, unless you can put your hand on your heart and justify plans, you really should ask yourself what you're doing!!!

As for Cougar, what a beuatiful horse! I would love to, love to, love to use him but I couldn't justify it unless I was looking specifically for an eventer or show horse.
Another thing, where are the sons of Kiltealy Spring and Parkmore Night? These two have some truly outstanding eventing sons, Fernhill Clover Mist, Parkmore Ed, but nothing to continue their lines. We've lost Highland King for eventing breeders lets not lose these two as well or we're truly screwed when looking for eventing sires!

Where's Ballyshan and TomReed? Would love to hear their take at this stage!


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## Simsar (26 March 2010)

Stop calling for back-up, they will both get to going on me about warmbloods too 

Like you say you only need to justify what you are breeding and why to yourself.

As one of the original posts said though, some nice traditional Irish names please for your stock something we can pronounce!!!


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## Eothain (26 March 2010)

I'll tell you what, I'll even send over one of the traditional colts to stand at Simsar Stud for a few years!!!


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## linali (26 March 2010)

you are going to use Cumano!!! Very brave, I would love to use him but to affraid to spend all that cash and get no foal at the end of it


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## Simsar (26 March 2010)

Eothain said:



			I'll tell you what, I'll even send over one of the traditional colts to stand at Simsar Stud for a few years!!!
		
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It's a deal! but if I so much as sniff warmblood on it ...............


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## Eothain (26 March 2010)

linali said:



			you are going to use Cumano!!! Very brave, I would love to use him but to affraid to spend all that cash and get no foal at the end of it 

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Absolutely! He's my second favourite horse ever and _when_ I breed to Cumano. Regardless of what the foal is, it'll never be sold. I've never been lucky enough to breed to Cruising or even own a horse by him. Have only ridden a couple by him. I hate myself because of that! I'm not going to squander the chance of using Cumano. Hell, my forward planning has even made me name the foal! Cumana for a filly and Cumando for a colt!

And don't worry Simsar, I'll make sure that whatever the colt is, that it's a 1970s special  What about Cavalier, is he excluded too?


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## GrassHorse (26 March 2010)

Im back Eoithan. I had a hard day feeding RID grass horses.


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## BallyshanHorses (26 March 2010)

I am here Eothain.All I have to say that every other studbook in the world have injected one form or another horse into their breeding programme so why cant we.In order to keep with the times I feel we have to inject some scope combined with blood into Irish Breeding and if this means using outside stallions so be it.
Our breeding programme combines some old bloodlines including KOD,Diamond Lad,Chou Chin Chou, and Carnival Night.Most of the mares are covered with stallions that show ability,scope, and temperament and if that means we use something that is not Irish then so be it.Let the traditionalists breed traditional and anyone else breed from the best to the best if that is what you can do.We had a horse represent Ireland in Lanaken and another horse has just been placed well at the World Equestrian Federation show in Wellington,Florida a few weeks ago and I am sorry but I think if we used the stallion down the road and didnt look for something to compliment the mares then I seriously doubt if we would have these two horses doing what they are doing.Just my humble opinion.


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## Doris68 (26 March 2010)

I'm just loving this...but where the hell is Hilly?

I confess to be flying the RID flag but I'm biased as we have a very successful ISH (Kildalton Gold) Event Horse.

Fascinating stuff as I sit watching from the wings!


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## Simsar (27 March 2010)

BallyshanHorses said:



			I am here Eothain.All I have to say that every other studbook in the world have injected one form or another horse into their breeding programme so why cant we.In order to keep with the times I feel we have to inject some scope combined with blood into Irish Breeding and if this means using outside stallions so be it.
Our breeding programme combines some old bloodlines including KOD,Diamond Lad,Chou Chin Chou, and Carnival Night.Most of the mares are covered with stallions that show ability,scope, and temperament and if that means we use something that is not Irish then so be it.Let the traditionalists breed traditional and anyone else breed from the best to the best if that is what you can do.We had a horse represent Ireland in Lanaken and another horse has just been placed well at the World Equestrian Federation show in Wellington,Florida a few weeks ago and I am sorry but I think if we used the stallion down the road and didn't look for something to compliment the mares then I seriously doubt if we would have these two horses doing what they are doing.Just my humble opinion.
		
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I am certainly not saying that anyone should just use 'the stallion down the road' I am just saying that for me an ISH will always be a ID x TB/Connie.
All breeding animals should be selected to compliment each other in conformation and add ability in the chosen discipline required, I just think that as I have said previously a traditional ISH can hold it's own against a warmblood given the same opportunities as proven by Cruising and his sons and daughters.


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## Eothain (27 March 2010)

There's not enough though. Only 2 horses in the top 200 last year. The Irish bred horses who are doing the business for us are for the most part quite exceptional (and quite often are by Cruising). A traditional ISH will always be tb/id cross. There will always be people who breed just that, however, to get back to the position we once held, we need that infusion of foreign blood.
A former Irish World Champion, told a stud owner I know, that Irish horses are too clever to be showjumpers. They know after a while that if they touch the poles that it doesn't hurt. He said a ten or twelve year old foreigner will come around a corner and jump a fence like it's his first time to jump, land, take a stride and jump another fence like it's his first time to jump.
Interesting thought!


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## Maesfen (27 March 2010)

Eothain said:



			A former Irish World Champion, told a stud owner I know, that Irish horses are too clever to be showjumpers. They know after a while that if they touch the poles that it doesn't hurt. He said a ten or twelve year old foreigner will come around a corner and jump a fence like it's his first time to jump, land, take a stride and jump another fence like it's his first time to jump.
Interesting thought!
		
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Had to laugh.  That's why we've called them dumbloods, they don't have brains!  Give me a horse with a brain any day


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## Eothain (27 March 2010)

I think he may have generalised slightly! When you look at the horses who are out there competing and globe trotting, they clearly can't have bad temperaments or a lack of brains. I can't see how a horse like Castleforbes Libertina, Peppermill, Cumano or Arko could be considered dumb!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## GrassHorse (27 March 2010)

Eothain said:



			A former Irish World Champion, told a stud owner I know, that Irish horses are too clever to be showjumpers. They know after a while that if they touch the poles that it doesn't hurt. He said a ten or twelve year old foreigner will come around a corner and jump a fence like it's his first time to jump, land, take a stride and jump another fence like it's his first time to jump.
Interesting thought!
		
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Thats just a polite way of saying Irish horses can't jump

Warmbloods dont "kiss poles" because they can jump them!

I was at the RDS last year watching the 5 year old finals. It was won by an WB/ISH. There was a stark difference between these WB/ISH and the pure Irish bred. The pure Irish breds made such a mess, I thought all the men in Ireland wouldn't be able to rebuild the course.


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## firm (27 March 2010)

This thread has been great thanks. I do breed WBs but I love Irish horses. 

The only way to get Irish only pedigree horses  back to the very top SJ is to breed the very best Irish mares to the very best Irish stallions at least once.  From what I can make out from info on here is that the best mares go to WB stallions eg if I have picked this up right - Trump Carder & Queen of Trumps are full sisters and have produced lots of excellent offspring, Royal Concorde etc, by WB stallions. But is QoT the dam of Clover Flush? a stallion who has had from a very small crop an excellent jumping mare Harristown Princess  out of a Kildalton mare.  Has QoT any other offpring by Irish stallions or just him?  

Samgamgee that is mentioned - he is by a WB stallion out of TB mare  but he is a half brother to Flexible and Flexing who are all Irish blood and very successful. 

It is easier to find a top class WB stallion but maybe if each top class Irish mare went once to a top class Irish stallion then a few more might make it to the top  
And can I buy a filly from that cross at a very reasonable price as it will be an Irish only blood horse that can't jump


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## Eothain (27 March 2010)

Queen Of Trumps is indeed the dam of Clover Flush. Clover Flush is a beautiful stallion. You'd hardly expect him to breed the quality that he does. He's the sire of my yearling filly that I'm going to try to breed traditional Irish jumpers from. Although, I will be breaking that rule on at least 3 occasions. Once for Womanizer, once for Luidam and once for Je T'aime Flamenco.

Carmena Z is out of an Irco Mena daughter of Trump Carder and Royal Concorde is out of Trump Carder herself by Concorde funnily enough. I don't know too much more about the Queen Of Trumps and what else she produced.

I consider this dam line to be as important to Irish breeding as the mare Tanagra is to the Selle Francais. With Tanagra being the dam of Jalisco B, grand-dam of Cabdula Du Tillard and grand dam of Ephebe For Ever.

Don't get me wrong, I think Irish horses can still the job done, but only just. I feel we need a foreign injection to set the breed alight once more.

The juggling act we face is making sure we continue to produce the leisurse horse we are famed for while defending our eventing status from the french and hannovarians while pulling our jumping status back off it's knees and providing the means to utilise foreign sires should breeders so wish but if they want to go the traditional route, then fair play to them and best of luck!


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## Eothain (27 March 2010)

Turns out QoT has produced the Chellano Z mare Charisma Z owned by DRSsporthorses and the Ballinvella mare Royella who competed up to 1.30 and has since gone on to produce a 2008 AES filly by Handel


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## GrassHorse (27 March 2010)

I have a Sky Boy mare out of The Queen of Trumps. She is 67% TB. Thats the problem with this family, they have too much blood. I must breed her to a powerfull heavy warmblood. Thats why Concorde worked well with Trump Carder ( Royal Concorde ) and Carthago Z worked well with Irma, Trump carder's daughter ( Carmena Z). The only ISH stallion I would consider is Flexible, but he has a lot of blood too. I have to use a warmblood. There is nothing else. Look at Touchdown ( WB / ISH ), Irco Mena ( WB / ISH ). These are just two examples of how this system works .


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## DRSsporthorses (27 March 2010)

There are more foals out of the Trump Carder and Queen of Trumps mares. I know that Carmel Ryan bred a full brother out of Queen of Trumps to our gelding Charisma Z (by Chellano Z), but a year younger.  She calls him Zak (not sure what his real name is but I can ask). He is grey as well, but is the total opposite of ours, which is high-blooded.  Zak takes after the KOD side of the family and he's huge...I would venture 17 h at the least. Ours is 16.1. I believe Zak went to Shane Breen sometime late last year.

I know there was a full sister to Royal Concorde (Trump Carder), by the name of Concordia, and another stallion by the name of Dutch Treat by Irco Mena--which would make full brother to Irma.

Here's a link to a Chellano Z/Trump Carder by the name of Cherubini Z. I haven't seen him personally but by all accounts he was the star of Spruce Meadows last year. Carmel Ryan has him listed for sale. Just one more from a stellar family!

http://www.irishhorseworld.com/en/index.php?categoryid=105

Trump Carder and Queen of Trumps were like gold in terms of production of world class showjumpers. I would love to hear from anyone that has mares that even come close to what these two have done. I would say they are few and far between.


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## kittyandnewt (27 March 2010)

just what ireland needs, more horses! 

whatever about certain stallions being disappointing, as regards their offspring- people look back on certain stallions and say "sure he never bred anything", take a look at the mares he got- rubbish. everyone knows someone who has a red rotten useless mare who wouldnt jump out of her own way so they decide to put her in foal and are shocked when the foal grows up to be just as useless. (ok i know im generalising slightly)  we do need to take a look as to why we dont have as many top jumpers like we did with the great cruising and all those greats, and some continental blood may be the way to go but we equally need to look at the quality of mare were using, be she foreign bred or irish bred. take a catalogue at tb sales and look at any lot- 1st dam, 2nd dam, 3rd dam... as they say it takes two!


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## kpoundsbery (27 March 2010)

Dam line of Irco Mena is pretty impressive.  His dam, Ballymena Park also produced Marcoville (individual 6th Barcelona Olympics) and Mirca G (won Nations Cups on the same team as her full brother Irco Mena).  Daughter's of Mirca produced graded stallions Irco Miro (winner of Suffolk Grand Prix ridden by John Whitaker) and Irco Balou, and a grand daughter produced the approved stallion Balou Mena.  Also from this dam line is a number of international performers


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## firm (27 March 2010)

Thanks for all the info   It is great to read about these mares. 
Ballymena Park another fab Irish mare, looks like she was bred to WBs.  Any offspring by Irish stallions?   Maybe it is a catch 22


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## firm (27 March 2010)

According to google  both Touchdown and Chippison are  out of International Irish SJ mares so you would expect that cross with WB stallions to work to some degree. 
I do think Irish stallions get a hard time & I am not even in Ireland  

Is there a reason why Cool Diamond is not mentioned as an Irish stallion of merit?


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## Eothain (28 March 2010)

Chippison is by Cavalier and out of Chipmount by Flagmount Boy who is a full brother to the stallions Flagmount King, Flagmount Diamond and Diamonds Are Trumps. She was indeed an international jumper as was Touchdown's dam Lady Willpower by Cheyne.

Coolcorron Cool Diamond is a good horse but a tad expensive, I wanted to use him in 2008 but opted for Clover Flush when I heard the price!!! He has some nice horses jumping on the circuit like Kimberlite and Ballyanchor Cool Diamond. I think that because of his price and semen quality he'll never get a fair chance to be regarded as the quality stallion he is.

In terms of Ireland not having quality Sports stallions, I would have to disagree. Look at Cara Touche. Winner of 3 1.40 g.ps in 2009 as an 8 year old. He's by Touchdown and out of a Flagmount Diamond mare who comes from the family of Castlepollard who held the Hickstead Speed Derby record for 14 years until Shane Breen and Royal Concorde came along in 2008 and set a new record. ... So theoretically, a mare from the family of Royal Concorde, bred to a stallion from the family of Castlepollard is surely a future Hickstead Speed Derby winner!!! Lucky you Grass Horse!

Samjemgee. RDS 7 year old champion. Represented Ireland in Lanaken in 2009. By Ramiro B out of Flexible's mother, Flex who is a former Irish National Champion. Ramiro B is sire of Heracross a Boomerang winner and 1.50 competitor for Irish-based Swedish rider Stephanie Finetto.

Cruisings Mickey Finn would be out for you due to the Sky Boy blood but what about Oldtown KC? By Cruising of out Trevor Breen's international speed mare Oldtown Katie who is by Clover Fields. Oldtown KC might not be the world's biggest horse but he's a little bull of a thing!

Coolcorron Cool Diamond is another one you could look at. Another big powerful tank of a horse. He competed in last year's National Championships at 20 years of age! Pretty good going I think.

Errigal Flight, as well if you want big powerful horses and don't mind close KoD breeding.

It's not fair to say we have nothing in Ireland but as I've said previously the reason I'm looking abroad for assistance is because I feel we could do with a touch of new blood to freshen up the entire gene pool which has become stagnant and muddy.

And yes Kittyandnewt, there are some s***e mares breeding in Ireland. I do intend to extend an olive branch to the likes of Cougar and see if they can step up to the plate. He's still quite young like. 7 or 8 good breeding seasons and we could be sat here after the 2026 WEG talking about the ISH stallion son of Cougar, out of the Clover Brigade mare, who won individual gold!

Wishful thinking I dare declare. I say, send in the Cumano blood!


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## GinnieRedwings (28 March 2010)

Eothain said:



			A former Irish World Champion, told a stud owner I know, that Irish horses are too clever to be showjumpers. They know after a while that if they touch the poles that it doesn't hurt. He said a ten or twelve year old foreigner will come around a corner and jump a fence like it's his first time to jump, land, take a stride and jump another fence like it's his first time to jump.
Interesting thought!
		
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GrassHorse said:



			Thats just a polite way of saying Irish horses can't jump

Warmbloods dont "kiss poles" because they can jump them!
		
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Is anybody looking at the "producing" side of things? Competition success, especially at top level SJ, as has been mentioned in this thread before is a lot about technical as well as natural ability.

I agree that indiscriminate breeding (as well as inbreeding, I will stick to that point!) and overbreeding to cash in on the previous success and make a quick buck out of the reputation of certain Irish bloodlines, has really not helped the top-end Irish breeders trying to produce the next Cruising, but there will always be the age old problem of nature vs. nurture.

Have you taken a look at the 1.10m classes at British county shows? Anyone else thinking that there are lots of outstanding animals there, who will never ever fulfill their talent because they are simply being ruined by incompetent riders? Quality ISH animals have been imported to Britain by the truckload in the last 20 years (and the rest), only to end up in the knackers yard because of rubbish producing. They might have been good enough to go to the top, but we'll never know. There are too many people with too much money, too big an ego and not enough skill.

The point I am trying to make is that clever horses need clever producers who do not just try and "make" the horses perform to the top of their ability. They need producers who are able to coax that huge ISH heart to try the best they can all of the time - that is what will always beat the pure WBs IMO.

I'll take my ISH mare I mentioned before (Rich Rebel xx X Clover Hill X Legaun Prince) as an example. I acquired her as a 7 year old after she was wrecked by one of those "semi-professional" SJ riders. She is by a mile the cleverest horse I've ever worked with. She is the only horse I know, I can honestly say considers all her options before doing anything. She is completely deliberate about everything she does. Not a hint of dumblood overeaction, ever. I was free-schooling her in my round pen last Summer. The fence is 6' high. I could see her gage the fence on the side of the open field, but thought she would decide it wasn't worth her while to try and jump it. After a couple of circuits, she trotted at it, took one stride of canter and jumped the fence, completely effortlessly and in perfect style. There can be no denying that this mare has bags of talent and ability. So why did she finish her SJ carreer at the age of 6 at British Novice level? Get her on you side, she is the perfect partner and will do anything for you. Get her against you... well something will break... It wasn't the SJ poles that broke though. She never "kissed" a fence in her SJ life!

Bloodlines and good breeding is only one side of the equation. There are not enough good producers around to get the best out of talented young horses.


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## hilly (28 March 2010)

Doris68 said:



			I'm just loving this...but where the hell is Hilly?

I confess to be flying the RID flag but I'm biased as we have a very successful ISH (Kildalton Gold) Event Horse.

Fascinating stuff as I sit watching from the wings!
		
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*waves at Doris* 


Im home! De-jetlagged but resorting to dial-up ISP  so not online much this week.. 

Okay, this will be long. Turn back now if essay-adverse. 

My tuppenceworth on the Irish sport industry is .. Well, for starters, its not an industry. Its still a collection of professional, hobby and farmer-breeders who will do their own thing despite any amount of forum pontifications or directives from hierarchy.

The real incentive for Irish breeders to change tack is finance. From getting rid of Draught mares when banks offered cheap loans for tractors; to Draught breeders using KOD and Clover Hill, (because it was a win-win situation then whether the foal was a colt or a filly as most Draught breeders greeted colt foals with the enthusiasm of a dairy farmer towards bull calves) and various premium/headage schemes.

Foals are still a cash crop for the farmer-breeder who still makes up the majority of Irish breeders. If theyre told they will make a profit at the sales by using warm blood sires, they will use them; if they are told that there is a 5,000 prize for the best TB-sired foal in the RDS Breeders Championship, they will use TB sires. If they are told that in order to put Irish-bred show jumpers back at the top of their game in ten years, they must use top continental stallions, many will. Those that can afford to.

Apparently in Ireland, you must either love or hate warm bloods.  I think this stems from the protectionist mindset of the Irish breeder because for years - and they were glorious years that breeders should be proud of - we ruled the show jumping world when eventing was considered a poor second-best.

Those glory years bought the Irish sport horse the type of publicity that ..well, couldnt be bought. So I, for one, will never knock those legends because they brought buyers to Ireland, (albeit at the expense of the future mare herd) and put money in breeders and producers pockets, particularly for hard-pressed farmers. There was land & jeeps bought, stables built, kids put through third-level education back then when a profit could be made from horses.

One example; at the Bord na gCapall young stock sale, held in conjunction with the 1982 World Showjumping Championships held in Dublin, the top-priced youngster was a Positively 3y.o, sold for £7,200. In the early 1980s, when the average price of a 3-bedroom bungalow was £20,000, that went a long way.  Are Irish breeders making one-third of the price of the same house now? A garage maybe.

I wonder if the reason for our downfall was as simple as not using warm bloods to keep up. Lets hope it is that easily fixed and for those who opt for that plan that we could be back on top in ten years. I wish it would happen but is it that simplistic?

Breeding is cyclical, for starters. It was dominated by Irish-breds for years and while we were basking in the glow of KOD, Clover Hill and Cavalier, the Dutch, Germans and French came from behind and are now on top; the Belgian and Swedish studbooks are next in line.

But it took these studbooks decades of experimentation and fine-tuning and the same applies here. There were some Irish breeders who used top European stallions from the 1970s, starting with Frank Kernan using Galoubet. His Touchdown is perhaps the best (only?) success story, having jumped at the Barcelona Olympics and sired the World Champions mare, Liscalgot. And thats what were talking about and aiming for, surely? World-class horses. In order to get back to the top of the rankings, Ireland has to consistently produce championship horses and  successful 1.50/1.60m Grand Prix horses.

And it wont be as simple as sourcing top European stallions by AI, that will speed up the process but will it happen in the ten fast-track years? It is going to take decades and generations.  I was recently speaking to one of the top Continental stallion owners recently and asked if Ireland could catch up, at quickest, it will take 30/40 years .. But we will still be 30/40 years ahead of you!.  

Because youre also up against a superb marketing and promotional machine. You will always hear about the success stories in the horse world but rarely about the failures that are quietly shuttled off abroad and to factories.

Also, just to clarify one thing. I am not anti-warm blood. If thats the case, Im anti-Irish Sport Horse because both the continental and Irish types are bred on the same principle - TB used on light draught mares and then continue to cross  for substance/quality/athleticism according to the mares requirements and what the future plan is for the progeny, ie, show jumper, eventer, show horse, happy hacker, hunter. There is a job for every horse and Im not the slightest bit snobbish about where my neds end up so long as theyre in good hands. 

Thats part of the problem in Ireland - were obsessed with breeding show jumpers. They HAVE to be show jumpers. And partly thats to do with the glory years when our wins were enshrined in the Irish psyche.  One example; I was marking answer sheets at a Riding Club quiz. One question was name the Triple Crown Aga Khan team of 1978; another was name last years Irish Aga Khan members - everyone got the first question right; not one could answer the other.

But theyre only Riding Club members .. ah, but theyre also a substantial part of the the market that keeps the Irish horse industry afloat, from horse feed to trailers, farriers and vets; part of the sponsors target market and who the RDS hope will buy stand tickets for Aga Khan day. So lets hope this blip is cyclical and there will be a team of four Irish-bred horses (with pronounceable names, this comes up so often!) in the future.

On the Aga Khan, Im seeing something different from you Eothain when you watch the past greats. Of course we know that courses have changed and the type of horse - but it WAS sheer heart and a will to win, which not even the most scientific breeding programmes can guarantee, that made them tigers in the ring and I love them for that. I presume it was the two Heathers you referred to as cobby because the 3/4bred Rockbarton was a quality horse who would not have been out of place in a lightweight show hunter class. 

And out of John Whitakers five Olympic appearances, his only medal was with another Irish cob - Ryans Son. His background is a salutary tale because his dam was turned down twice for Bord na gCapall premiums (one of two failed mares on the first occasion and the only one from 80 mares on the second year) and her owner was so exasperated he sold the in-foal mare at the local mart. She disappeared but her only known (and probable) foal was Ryans Son. 

You cant breed freaks, no more than you can guarantee world champions with every foal, but the underdogs like Ryans Son are unforgettable.

Those old inspections will now be replaced by linear scoring but no chart will ever replace a great horsemans eye for a horse. Its a gift.  The late Bord na gCapall vet, Dick Jennings and stallion owner, Philip Heenan were two with the best eye and instinct for a horse. Skippy, Sky Boy, Clover Hill ..and more that I cant think of off the top of a Sunday morning coffee-deprived head ..were some of the reasons that while Irish breeders should always look forward, they could also acknowledge the past greats and that some officials got it very right.


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## hilly (28 March 2010)

(Continued from above as the new-look H&H appears to have word count restrictions?)

How was Clover Hill ridiculed by Draught breeders? Genuinely curious about that one.  For sure, there was a lot of jealousy by other stallion owners and every couple of months the mischievous rumours went around about his demise but I personally know of many Draught breeders who thanked their lucky stars that Jennings passed Clover Hill. Whether Clover Hill produced a colt or a filly, was a win-win result because the colt could be sold as a performance prospect when other Draught colts were sold for buttons.  

The showring and Draught purists rarely used Clover Hill anyhow because he wasn&#8217;t a Draught, they used more traditional types. The more far-seeing could see the long-term effects of relying on Clover Hill (and KOD) but  perhaps the majority of Irish breeders don&#8217;t look that far ahead and when you&#8217;re getting £5k for a Clover Hill Draught colt, they did live for (and enjoy) that moment. And depended on getting it, in some cases.

It was pure profit and I think that is why some breeders are wary about paying AI and other associated costs,  for top European stallions because they wonder will they make a profit? 

And the other fear is if Irish lines will be lost; there are already some mares with 2/3 warm blood crosses - if they were TBs they would almost qualify for a Weatherbys passport. If the unique selling point of an Irish mare is their character, longevity, soundness and fifth leg, that will be lost as it&#8217;s bred out.  And ..playing Devil&#8217;s advocate here because this is what I hear on an almost daily basis ..if we end up with a generic Irishblood, what will entice UK, European and US buyers to add in extra travel/shipping costs to buy here when they can get the &#8216;same&#8217; at home? 

Was flicking through the horses for sale pages in H&H this week and looking at the prices for offspring by &#8217;fashionable&#8217; European  sires; one local breeder plans to use one particular sire; he has added up his costs and is hoping for a colt which he plans to sell for 10K as a foal. I&#8217;m not going to break the news to him that an English buyer could buy one by that same sire that already jumping 1.30m for less than that.

You could argue that that&#8217;s not a superstar but the reality is the majority of  &#8216;bread & butter&#8217; horses will go no further than 1.30m and a comparative handful will ever reach 1.60m. 

So genuinely, the best of luck to anyone planning to go down the &#8216;breed a world-class show jumper in 2 generations or less&#8217; route. 

For the other breeders, Horse Sport Ireland has to at least start by making the distinction between warm blood and traditional animals passports. This comes up every year at their AGM; there have been repeated requests in the media and still no, because of EU regulations. 

As for the Grange Bouncer and Huntingfield Rebel references, Eothain - you&#8217;ve contradicted yourself by saying they&#8217;ve produced &#8216;nothing&#8217; but yet have their place?
Grange Bouncer is one of the few Draught stallion to have competed at 4* level; he has eventing progeny in the pipeline and several approved sons but if you judge everything by show jumping standards, perhaps that&#8217;s not anything? 

Likewise, Huntingfield Rebel; would you complain if we were &#8216;flooded&#8217; with 200 Cumano offspring? !

So is their &#8216;place&#8217; producing future broodmares or all-rounders? I have one mare in foal to Rebel and not for a minute am I deluded enough to think that the foal will be at the 2020 Olympics. BUT she&#8217;s a quality blood-type mare whose ISH-sired daughters are exactly the type of Irish mares found in the 1970s. One, by King&#8217;s Master - and I&#8217;ll mention him as Irish sires have got plugs galore in this post! -  is greatly admired by stallion owners and breeders whose opinions I hugely respect - is in foal to Watermill Swatch. Do I think I&#8217;m going to breed another Olympian show jumper? 

If her dam produces a filly, another real Irish mare in the making. If she produces a colt, there&#8217;ll be a job and home for him too as he&#8216;ll have the character of both. For the Swatch foal, eventing is their market either as a performer or replacement broodmare.

&#8220;You get what you get&#8221; is my breeding motto, not the clichéd &#8216;breed the best to the best (and hope for the best)&#8217; because there is no greater roller-coaster than horse-breeding. If  only it was that formulaic than breeding  two champions and being guaranteed another.

All you can hope for first is a live, healthy foal frisking about and THEN you can start planning Olympics or bread & butter jobs for &#8216;em. 

Someone mentioned about Irish Draught mares being heavy?? Not the real types. They were found in pockets around the country where there was no Clydesdale or heavy draught influences and are as scarce as hen&#8217;s teeth now.  There is one beauty I make a beeline for to watch at shows - she&#8217;s barely 16 hands, floats over the ground - you barely hear her hooves touch base - and only breeds every second year as she pings 5&#8217; fences out hunting. Sadly, she&#8217;s  probably one of the last of those nimble, intelligent  true types that have been taken over by  ponderous, earth-shaking giants. 

They can&#8217;t all be world-beaters but it was the likes of her and similar that bred Irish horses with very happy owners. 

Quickly skimming down .. Sunday lunch needs cooking .. Highland King has a half-brother, King&#8217;s Master; there is also a full-brother colt to Ballincoola (which the French are interested in leasing) while Ballincoola&#8217;s dam and full-sister are in foal to Master Imp and King&#8217;s Master respectively. Not a problem there sourcing the HK line or connections.

Kiltealy Spring .. Like Orbis, didn&#8217;t quite get the mares he needed. Why? Because he bred useful show jumpers so lost popularity.. Then goes and produces Fernhill Clover Mist, Some Day Soon and Noble Springbok instead. Sod&#8217;s Law. I will hold my hands up and &#8216;fess to standing in the aisle between him and Ghareeb, deciding..then telling Jay Bowe to use Ghareeb for that year. Kiltealy Spring was dead by the next year. Such is life. 

To be continued. No doubt


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## Doris68 (28 March 2010)

*Waves back to Hilly*
So good to hear from you - I was beginning to panic!!


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## Irishlife (28 March 2010)

Hilly
You have echoed so much of what I feel and have said in posts further up the thread.
I had actually written a missive and went to send it and it failed Aaaarrrghh so will be cutting and pasting this one to reply.

We now have a separate stud book for Warmbloods (Warmblood Studbook of Ireland) with performance testing along continental lines and a certain number of approved stallions within that book already. Some mare family lines have been set up already.

I wonder what the take up will be as unless the Irish Horse Board hand off all the approved warmbloods in the main stud book to the new Warmblood stud book. Are we actually any further forward?.

At present using a horse with foreign bloodlines whether an Oldenburg, SF or Holstein means even if your mare has warmblood lines herself, the resulting offspring is classified as an Irish Sport Horse (ISH).  If that same mare were covered with a warmblood stallion from the newly formed Warmblood studbook of Ireland, the offspring would be considered a warmblood (IWB???) and also subject to inspection, unique identifier microchip for the stud book and also a passport from Warmblood Studbook of Ireland.

So how many of us with warmblood breeding will follow this route and put our mares forward for inspection and how many will continue to use warmblood stallions approved by the Irish Horse Board?  So, when is an Irish warmblood not a warmblood, when it is an Irish Sport Horse!  

Because the USP of the Warmblood studbook of Ireland is Warmbloods with an Irish accent, there are percentages of draught blood (12.5%) permitted and the same for TBs etc.

It can no longer be said with the expansion of the approved foreign horses in the stud book that an ISH is guranteed to be a mix of ID and TB blood and as Hilly said everyday run of the mill warmblood crosses are plentiful abroad. We have to promote and market the versatility of the classic Irish horse with his draught power, andTB heart . By diluting or increasing the amount of blood in the cross, a horse for all seasons can be bred even show jumpers.

Nobody has mentioned Carling King yet  4th Individual Athens Olympics a pure, 8th WEG, numerous Nations Cups- Irish horse who retired sound at 16. Sired by Clover Hill, King of Diamonds dam line

Hilly took the words out of my mouth about the production of horses too. We do rush them here to get them looking sharp for the sales sometimes, but there are also a lot of bad producers and riders (as everywhere).  There are also some genius producers and riders who do get the well deserved rewards.  The proper production of the horse is vital and more benchmarking and performance scoring should be applied during a young horses career which all adds to his genetic potential.

It is necessary to improve the quality of the Irish Show Jumping Horse to adapt him to the requirements of todays courses but equally the quality of training and nurture and the right riders play as much of a part and too many good young horses are spoiled by over jumping to get a few points up.

An article in the Irish Field this week states Ireland needs an infusion of high-quality genetics and a selection programme in order to return the Irish horse to the top of the sport To this end apparently some international classes for 7 and 8 year olds have been added to the RDS schedule this year.  This is from the RDS Breeding Expert Group that was formed after the breeders forum they hosted last October.

The article also states that the traditionalists among us will be pleased to know the thoroughbred is not considered totally redundant in the production of top class show jumping horses.  They also state culling will be needed by breeders as a first step if the ISH breeder is to match steps with his continental counterpart.

Breeding is subjective, we are individuals and we know what we like. Those of us who like to think we can breed quality and have proved we can, tend to be more enlightened and examine pedigrees conformation and try to ensure the right nick with our mares and stallions.

I cannot subscribe to Eoithains view that sticking say Baloubet de Rouet on any mare is progress in breeding because of the horses genetics.  It is not just about function it is about form too and there should also be attention paid to conformation of the mare and stallion and back in the pedigree if possible.  A lot of random breeding develops soundness issues and that is something else we need to bear in mind. Admittedly not a lot of study has been done in Ireland  on inherited traits of soundness in the ISHbut in general terms, Irish horses are sound horses whereas there is a lot of inherited soundness issues in some warmblood lines.

At the end of the day, we can choose to breed warmbloods via the Warmblood studbook of Ireland or the IHB, Draught horses (modern or traditional), TBsxIDs in varying dilutions and throw the odd Connemara to a TB for a truly underrated Irish sport horse.

I am going to Cavan Stallion Parade on Tuesday evening for a mouth watering evening of seeing the cream of Irish stallions.  After this forum debate, I cant wait as I have STILL not decided on a couple of stallions yet.

Happy Sunday everyone.


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## Eothain (28 March 2010)

Ok, very quickly, Irishlife, rarely do I mention conformation in posts because well, I would always always always be of the opinion that people who are on a forum like this would have a good grasp of the conformational needs of a broodmare. I'd be inclined to take good baseline conformation for granted. Maybe that's wrong of me but I thought that it just goes with out saying!

Hilly, hello and welcome back. I'll address the ridicule of Clover Hill first while I search back through the pages to find where I called Heather Honey & Blaze 'cobby'

So ... ... ... All I can simply say is that in these parts, or maybe just the Draught folk I know, mentioning Clover Hill as a reputable ID sire gets you dirty looks and raised blood pressure. You hear things like, and I quote, "That auld Clover Hill f*cker was no Irish Draught. He's grand for breeding a showjumper but it's an absolute disgrace that he was ever called an Irish Draught. Shir wasn't he a half bred! If you want to breed an Irish Draught use something else but certainly not Clover Hill" These comments in my book are a touch petty. Surprisingly not _all_ from stallion owners either, mainly Draught enthuiasts I know that were annoyed by his status.

"When you look at videos on youtube of the old Irish horses, it looked more like sheer heart rather than out standing talent that got them around. They were quite unorthadox and cobby. When you watch Rockbarton or Heather Honey or Heather Blaze, you'd think to your self, how in the name of God did they manage to jump around?"

I'm not knocking these horses either. They are/were fantastic horses. There's no denying that but where do they stack up against the horses of today?

In reference to the Irish Field article, it is factually incorrect. In 2009 there was indeed one ISH in the Aga Khan competition. The Errigal Flight mare London Calling ridden for Sweden by Lotta Schultz who was the person that rode the sole ISH in showjumping at the 2008 Olympics, Calibra by Cavalier.

Not for one second do I think that there should be a passport difference between traditional Irish horses and Irish horses of european roots. Irish-bred is Irish-bred. Every year at the IHB agm I have to shake my head in disagreement when that guaranteed question comes up.

As for Grange Bouncer and Huntingfield Rebel-esque sires, I am indeed saying that if the majority of their stock ends up as those bread and butter types then happy days. I'm not saying that they won't produce competition stock but at 18 and 20 years of age, they should have produced more than they have. Lord knows it's not because they have had small books of mares. You may be missing that point that I _want_ them to produce winners. I want one of them to give us the next Lenamore but the question I pose, to which there is no right or wrong answer just opinions, has the ship sailed on them being super star performance sires at their age? I'm begging the Draught folk to step up to the plate in terms of showing us what their horse's can do in modern sport and prove me wrong. At this point, I do think that in the future we'll see more horses like Ricardo Z and O.B.O.S Quality in the pedigrees of our eventers. There's also nothing wrong with breeding 1.20 or 1.30 horses. Superstars they may not be, but if they can be regularily in the money at shows then they are worth their weight in gold as diesel-horses. The horses that pay for you to at least get to the shows every week!

I'd also like to say that this year, I'm putting my Classic Vision x Duca Di Busted mare in foal to Watermill Swatch. What a fabulous stallion. Filly please!

That's great news about Ballincoola's relations being in foal to Master Imp and Kings Master. That has actually made my day! Sad, I know but I do worry about the future of our studbook.

I'm quite enjoying this thread. There's no petty squabbling or name calling. Just good points of view and opinions. No negativity. I get the sense that everyone wants Irish horses to kick a$$ again. Which is nice!

There's something else I wanted to say but it has slipped my mind so I'll post this for now and hopefully remember what I wanted to say for a later post!


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## NeverSayNever (28 March 2010)

this thread is really educating me no end.....   Im new to all this and i actually feel a little better about my 'confusion' over the type and breeding of irish horses up until now.

i decided a while back that i wanted an ISH...  but what i had in my minds eye wasnt always what I saw and it confused me.

I wanted a lw type horse but with enough substance to event (at low level). While I had admired some ISH's I had seen... i found myself seeing others and thinking them 'cobby', which was the last thing I wanted (just personal pref).

I always imagined ID's to be a heavier built horse - hence my confusion when I was seeing some lovely lw ISH's and discovering they were at least 50% ID - to me, they looked very TB-ish, which was great!

so the whole thing about CoverHill that Eothain has explained now actually makes the lightbulb go 'ping' and I finally think I'm getting it! !

i knew nothing of the breeding when i saw him but my choice ended up being a Clover Hill grandson and K.O.D G/grandson. So initially I was confused as to why I wasnt looking at big heavy horse  now i know why


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## hilly (28 March 2010)

Doris: Put away the Rescue Remedy - no amount of sunshine or tornados could keep me away from the delights of Irish mud and the imminent arrival of non-jumping foals by 'nothing' sires..

(Where's the emoticons on the new-look site to show that last remark was made with tongue-welded-firmly-in-cheek?) 

Irishlife - yes, we are also singing off the same hymnsheet. By all means breed to the top competition sires but there is still a huge amount to be proud of about the Irish horse and if only from a marketing viewpoint to facilitate an established market, there should be a distinction between  continental and traditional Irish-breds' passports. 

Funnily enough, on the same flight home from Florida was a well-known Irish agent who was at Wellington. Very few enquiries about Irish-breds between the economy and American buyers spoilt for choice, yet the Irish eventing agents report they have never had a busier winter with prospective UK and American buyers and the majority wanted progeny by .. TB sires. Horses for courses.

I think it was Ginnie who made the point about training and the importance of young horses landing in the right hands which I agree 100% with. There are so many variables from getting a foal up to competition standard, from keeping them in one piece to starting off with the right rider who will bring them along properly. Everyone wants the top producers or riders for their horses .. particularly for young event horse classes :-D .. but there is a limit to what even the professionals can manage.

Qualifying for Dublin with your novice jumper was the be-all for years. Because they sold. Then the owner/rider went scouting for three-year-old replacements; the three-year-old seller then bought foal replacements - that chain has gone. I remember customers literally knocking on our door enquiring if we had any Clover Hill foals for sale - now, you either hold on and produce them (at great expense unless it's done in-house) or take your luck at the foal sales. 

Most showjumping yards have one, if not several, stallions, and their resultant progeny, to promote. What they will tell you privately about them may be very different from what they may say in public but that's par for the course. So the big yards don't need to buy replacements anymore; sales have slowed down and it's getting harder for many owners to find good, sympathetic producers to start off retained youngsters. 

Education? I would have made a visit to Philip Heenan's 'waiting room' bench compulsory for every third-level equestrian studies student, particularly wet-behind-the-ears would-be breeders! You either loved or hated the place but it was an education watching and listening to him and I feel privilged to have learned snippets from the master.

One of the famous Philip-isms was 'Never speak ill of another man's stallions'. Not once in twenty years did I ever hear him bad-mouth or run down another owner's stallions. Too much of a gentleman and he was matched by Dr Pat Geraghty, who bred .. so I was delighted you mentioned him .. Carling King.

Fabulous horse that never quite got the headlines he deserved as the backbone of the Irish team and I have some nice pics of him enjoying a well-deserved retirement where he is still treated as 'the King'. Have often asked international showjumpers where XYZ ended up.. it's usually 'don't know' or one succint response 'Pedigree Chum' so lovely to see such a contented retiree.

He's one of the few Irish horses to make the jump from Lanaken to the Olympics and all for a £30 stud fee. Sadly, Philip, Pat and another great breeder, Betty Parker, are no longer with us but ironic that these three were so cut from the same cloth and that Pat and Betty - two of the most modest people you could meet - ended up breeding two of Clover's  very best progeny. Betty bred Sure Coin (aka Ballaseyr Twilight) who will probably be the last traditionally-bred Irish winner of the Dublin Grand Prix.

Now, I'd better stop waxing nostalgic before I'm despatched to the corner to wear the pointy hat and 1970s outfit but while I'm all for progress, these old-time horse folk were in a league of their own and their opinions/achievements are still to be respected, even in an age of four-figure stud fees and F1/inbreeding/outcross/genetics-driven breeding programmes. 

I was at that RDS brief last week - similar findings to the HSI expert group findings but there will be some changes to the Horse Show this, and in future, years. Culling was very much to the fore, not so much as in one-way trips to the factory but taking mares out of the breeding chain if they're not producing. Hopefully, some of the fugly coloured and par-standard Draughts in fields along every Irish road.. 

Let's hope these various findings and new schemes work but this is Ireland and it's not rocket science. Breeders KNOW what they have to do but first, they have to know what the intend to breed, showjumper, eventer or hobby horse. There's no 'one size fits all' horse anymore. 

Secondly, they have to justify costs or else concentrate on covering the best mare with a top stallion than five third-rate mares with five second-rate stallions.

Thirdly, patience. If I intended to breed showjumpers, off to the Continent to buy a superb mare, from a stamm line that has produced winners for three generations and already in-foal to a top stallion. No starting off from scratch; no expensive AI packages (and some of those top stallions have less than great fertility rates - inbreeding?) .. three rungs up the generation ladder with one shopping trip. 

It's the same as starting a recipe from scratch or buying an M&S ready meal: -)

May see you at Cavan, IL?


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## hilly (28 March 2010)

Eothain said:



			So ... ... ... All I can simply say is that in these parts, or maybe just the Draught folk I know, mentioning Clover Hill as a reputable ID sire gets you dirty looks and raised blood pressure. You hear things like, and I quote, "That auld Clover Hill f*cker was no Irish Draught. He's grand for breeding a showjumper but it's an absolute disgrace that he was ever called an Irish Draught. Shir wasn't he a half bred! If you want to breed an Irish Draught use something else but certainly not Clover Hill" These comments in my book are a touch petty. Surprisingly not _all_ from stallion owners either, mainly Draught enthuiasts I know that were annoyed by his status.

Anyone begrudger who made comments like that should face a life of The Riordans repeats, comely maidens dancing at the crossroads before joining O'Leary in the grave. Clover Hill was more of a Landgraf  - TB sire on sturdy native that got jumpers - than a picture-perfect Draught but the reason he was passed was he had great bone, 10",  at a danger time when ID mares were in danger of osteoporosis.


Not for one second do I think that there should be a passport difference between traditional Irish horses and Irish horses of european roots. Irish-bred is Irish-bred. Every year at the IHB agm I have to shake my head in disagreement when that guaranteed question comes up.

So French Cheese should be .. French Cheese? And British Beef .. British Beef. What's wrong with Camembert, produced in France .. or finest Angus beef bred in the UK.  This is like the 'Irish smoked salmon' stocked in supermarkets which is Norwegian farmed but processed in Ireland. Label the goods and let the customer know what they're buying.



As for Grange Bouncer and Huntingfield Rebel-esque sires, I am indeed saying that if the majority of their stock ends up as those bread and butter types then happy days. I'm not saying that they won't produce competition stock but at 18 and 20 years of age, they should have produced more than they have. Lord knows it's not because they have had small books of mares. You may be missing that point that I _want_ them to produce winners. 


I have indeed missed that point. I shall start a search party forthwith. HOWEVER, it is only since Rebel moved to the best county that he attracted books of 200 mares; not before. There is still time for mini-Lenamore.  As obvious as it sounds, breeding is a numbers game.


Filly please!

You'll take what God gives you... *runs back to the corner. Glenroe is on next*
		
Click to expand...


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## Doris68 (28 March 2010)

Here are a few thoughts from an Irish Draught enthusiast :


 1. The IHB contributed to the demise of the ID by performance testing ID stallions. When they did this they concentrated only on jumping ability and paid little or no consideration to correct conformation, good limbs etc that were found in the old draught mares. The legacy that the IHB left was lighter, poor limbed horses that were lacking in both quality and type.
2. What they should have done was to INSPECT and seek out top class TB's, not only as sires, but also good brood mares to cross with the ID stallions (although I accept the TB sire on the ID mare is best).  The difficulty is that the TB type has changed as flat race breeding has been introduced into NH horses.  The supply of the ''old fashioned'' National hunt horses is almost non existent.   
3. The grants paid to AID mares contributed to the demise.  It encouraged all farmer breeders to breed from anything that resembled an ID regardless of its quality and with no considerations to what the aims were, other than breeding a foal.  That money should have been used to promote a selective breeding programme to preserve the best ID bloodlines, then cross the progeny with stallions as in [2].  That way we would have still had the show quality half-breds that we had 20 yrs ago, which are as rare as hens teeth now. If we wanted eventers, we could use a second cross of TB.  Having said that, there are a lot of half-bred/ three eight  ID's doing very well in eventing to International level ( e.g. Headley Brittania, Lenamore etc )


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## Simsar (28 March 2010)

Hilly, you are my soul mate. Absolutely brilliant posts, it is nice to have someone agreeing with me as I don't fully understand what is going on in Ireland as I live in Surrey!!! So have just been rambling my feelings and the little knowledge that I do have on the subject. 

It really has turned into a great debate and I'm quite proud to have been part of it.


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## Irishlife (28 March 2010)

I was privileged to know Pat Geraghty and Carling King (briefly) and we had some fine times at Glenamaddy in the days (not that long ago) when the stallions would be fighting it out in 1.60 masters competitions - Coille Mor Hill (RID), Welcome Flagmount (RID deceased sad loss) and Captain Clover by Clover Hill (ISH). All different shapes and sizes but Irish and brave with a fifth leg when it mattered. 

To Eothain, I was not suggesting that mares bred to genetically valuable stallions would not have good confomation, I just feel the match making should involve pedigree research in a considered process as the stakes are so high given AI variables, price of straws etc.
Also anothr Q for Eithain - do you intend to have any of your mares inspected by the Warmblood studbook of Ireland or will you stick with IHB?.   I have one mare who would be eligible but then I am moving down a very different pathway...... 

I think Hilly said she would be in Cavan Tuesday, Eothain? anyone else? PM me and maybe we could all grab a drink at some stage during the evening.


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## Eothain (28 March 2010)

hilly said:



			I have indeed missed that point. I shall start a search party forthwith. HOWEVER, it is only since Rebel moved to the best county that he attracted books of 200 mares; not before. There is still time for mini-Lenamore.  As obvious as it sounds, breeding is a numbers game.


Filly please!

You'll take what God gives you... *runs back to the corner. Glenroe is on next*
		
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The best county? Galway? Puh-lease! Surely that's a mistake on your behalf. I was taking everything you had to say quite seriously. You know, really trying to take it on board like but then you go and make a comment like that! Completely undermining yourself. Galway ... pfff!

And of course I'll take what I'm given. Healthy babies are the most important babies after all. Just a quick note, I don't want to go abroad to get stallion juice to import and use on my mares. I would rather have a bunch of different traditionally stallions here in Ireland that were up to the job of producing the elite horse I'm trying to breed.

From where I'm sat, if I breed a horse that somebody buys and loves and adores and who wins it's Riding Club events every week and can hunt away with the best of them during the winter, it's a complete, unadulterated, total failure. That's not what I'm trying to breed. If it makes someone happy, then fantastic good for them but it won't be what I set out to breed and therefore a failure. I know that there'll always be a bigger market for these horses, but that's not why I'm breeding. I'm not particularily interested in breeding eventers either. I'm a show jumping man through and through. I was elected on to the Leinster Region Committee of ShowjumpingIreland at 21. Showjumping isn't a hobby or passion to me. It's my life. It's why I get up in the morning. If I couldn't compete anymore, you'd be as well off calling a vet to put me down. So while I want to make sure we retain our place as Eventing's #1 studbook, it's showjumping horses that I'm talking about breeding. Cumano, Nabab De Reve, Cornet Obolensky and co may not be the most ideal sires for eventing stock but I'll get to that in a moment.

I think that the ISH studbook should be split in to 3 sections. Not the ID studbook, the ISH one. Glad we're clear on that! I'd have the Showjumping, Eventing and Riding Horse sections. In the jumping section, you'd find recommended show jumping sires. These would be good showjumping stallions themselves; sires of higher class competitors e.g 1.20m upwards and well related stallions. The warmblood influence would be higher here. In the eventing section you'd find your Kiltealy Springs, Parkmore Nights, Kings Masters and co. In the Riding Section, you would probably find a higher proportion of Draught blood for the Happy Hacker/Bread and Butter horse. I'm not, I repeat *Not* saying that an Eventing-recommended sire couldn't produce a 5* showjumper.
Once a horse had been initially licensed, it would go into a general section until it's progeny come on stream and you see where they are more than likely going to end up. You would also see the cross-over stallions like Cruising, Puissance, Master Imp etc who would be listed under all sections they're relevant for. So in the Showjumping section for example, Cruising would be represented by horses like Mo Chroi, Flexible and World Cruise while Mr Medicott, Electric Cruise and Mr Cruise Control would be his Eventing section representitives. That way breeders could see what sire is producing more of what and where it's doing it. So that if they want to use a horse with very few high or medium performing horses, work away but they would realise that their margin for failure would be quite higher. Again I'm not saying a horse recommended to be a Showjumping sire couldn't produce a pleasant Riding Horse because once the horse is licensed/approved it'd be licensed/approved for all sections. It's a difficult job trying to accomodate such a wide variety of goals for one studbook but that's how I would go about doing it. Any suggestions? Any faults? How do you go about recommending a stallion as a Riding Horse sire?

As for Ballyser Twilight being the last traditional ISH Dublin GP winner, I'm sure Mo Chroi (Cruising x Mister Lord) would take issue with that!

And also, on the point about production of young horses. I'm in complete agreement with you. There's far too many riders in Ireland who think they are the next Eddie Macken but are as about as useful to young horses as Eddie the Eagle is to the future of ski-jumping


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## Eothain (29 March 2010)

Irishlife said:



			I was privileged to know Pat Geraghty and Carling King (briefly) and we had some fine times at Glenamaddy in the days (not that long ago) when the stallions would be fighting it out in 1.60 masters competitions - Coille Mor Hill (RID), Welcome Flagmount (RID deceased sad loss) and Captain Clover by Clover Hill (ISH). All different shapes and sizes but Irish and brave with a fifth leg when it mattered. 

To Eothain, I was not suggesting that mares bred to genetically valuable stallions would not have good confomation, I just feel the match making should involve pedigree research in a considered process as the stakes are so high given AI variables, price of straws etc.
Also anothr Q for Eithain - do you intend to have any of your mares inspected by the Warmblood studbook of Ireland or will you stick with IHB?.   I have one mare who would be eligible but then I am moving down a very different pathway...... 

I think Hilly said she would be in Cavan Tuesday, Eothain? anyone else? PM me and maybe we could all grab a drink at some stage during the evening.
		
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I was typing another essay while you and Simsar replied. It's hard to respond on this and be on Facebook at the same time. My stupid crops died on Farmville too. Arrggh.

I agree with you about ai-ing to high performing stallions. Unless it's a proper good mare, you're just wasting your money. Everything needs to be right.

At the moment, I'm going to stick with the IHB. I want to become a useful part of the whole organisation. I would love to be a future Breeding Director there.

Ireland is also getting another new studbook. The IES. Irish European studbook. I saw an advert about stallion gradings in thursday's Farmers Journal. It's a sister book to the AES. So now you have even more options and things will be even more confusing.

The plan at the moment is to go to Cavan on tuesday. I don't want to miss it again this year. If you see someone in a black and silver Brosna View Stables jacket, that's me!

One other quick question about using the stallion down the road. Is that a bad thing if your nearest stallion is say, Luidam and he compliments your mare etc (Better mention that last bit!!!)


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## Irishlife (29 March 2010)

I hate it when that happens on Farmville!

The stallion down the road in my case is a donkey .My neighbour has in his field a jack donkey with a pony and two RID mares. The pony is in foal to the jack so we are expecting a mule (but a genuine one as opposed to a metaphorical one).  I am thinking of setting up an Irish hybrid studbook, there are a couple of zebras in Ballina if I recall so we might as well cover all angles in our quest for excellence!!! 

Look out for you on Tuesday


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## GrassHorse (29 March 2010)

To Eothain,
The IHB has had tens years of a booming economy to improve things. I don't see how they will improve things in this reccession. They still have no mare family numbers like the do on the continent. Its the mares they need to concentrate on. We have all stated several time throughout this discussion that you need a good mare. Most people dont know how good or bad their mare is. I hear stories people all the time like " I discovered recently that my hunting mare is related to a grand prix horse. We need to create a "brand value" around marelines like they have on the continent?


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## Eothain (29 March 2010)

They're addressing that somewhat with this new system. There's different mare awards and star ratings that mares can recieve for siblings performance, progeny performance and their own performance. It's not the very best system in the world but it's far far from the worst. There's finally going to be mare inspections held in the autumn for linear scoring. You're absolutely right, we need to build our mare lines to be more formidable. Hence why I've stated that when I breed my mares to the Dollar Du Murier's, Cabdula Du Tillard's and Nabab De Reve's that I'd be crossing my fingers for a filly. Colts will be getting sold on. There is quite a few foreign sires I'm hoping to use and none if them are spring chickens like so it will be a case of crossing fingers for fillies! I only wish that I felt this way about breeding when I started out my own breeding project a few years ago. Then perhaps I wouldn't have bred a bunch of traditional hunters!!!


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## GrassHorse (29 March 2010)

Im hoping stallions like Cara Touche and Jack of Diamonds work well with Irish mares. They are from Irish marelines with a drop of warmblood thrown in. Stallions like these would be palatable to traditional breeders. Breeders don't see Touchdown as a Warmblood, we claim him as one of our own! If the Cara touche/Jack of Diamonds system of producing stallions works? then will have mares in Ireland related to the stallions we use. This will give added value to our mares?


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## Eothain (29 March 2010)

It's also funny that even the stauchest opponents to warmbloods I know, even considered Cavalier to be Irish. They had no problems claiming him as one of our own either!!!

In reference to Doris' earlier post about Draught stallions not being performance tested, can I just say the I presonally believe that they can't be performance tested enough! But hey, that's just me!


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## Tharg (29 March 2010)

I thought the stallion parade was on Thursday?


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## Eothain (29 March 2010)

Nope, tomorrow night. Ponies first. Starting at 7


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## Alec Swan (29 March 2010)

I've followed this fascinating thread with more than a degree of increasing bewilderment.  That those who've contributed,  in the main,  are highly experienced and thoughtful breeders cannot be in question,  and for their efforts,  I for one,  am grateful.

The array of stallions lauded has left me ever more confused.  I have a few simple questions,  and assuming that those serious contributors haven't,  themselves,  run out of steam,  I'd be grateful for the answers.

A/ When we consider the Continental stallions,  and they are legion,  have we forgotten that,  most certainly in the '60s & '70's the TB sales in this country were attended by so many Continental buyers,  taking British Bred TB colts back with them,  in an effort to improve their own stock?  These Colts,  as in Ireland were used to improve their existing stock.

B/ Why is it that when we talk about Breeds and Types,  that we muddle them up?  The ID and the Connemara,  for instance,  are BREEDS.  The Holstein, Hanoverian,  ISH et all, are TYPES,  surely.  Irish? British? Continental? what on earth does that mean,  and perhaps more to the point,  does it matter?  The flow of horses,  around the world,  certainly for the last 30 years,  has meant that with the possible exception of a few BREEDS,  then there is no such thing as a horse which can claim to have National status.  

Cavalier Royale was only considered by many to be "half bred".  So he may have been,  but I for one,  wish that he was still about.  There should,  in my view,  be no place for Nationalistic nonsense,  within horse breeding. A good horse is where you find him,  regardless of other considerations.

C/ The odd mention has been made of the mare lines. I would suggest that 90% of this thread has been given over to stallion choices. When I read through the pedigrees of Continental stallions,  I see precious little mention of the mares.  

Does nobody look back at the second and third dam,  and consider what they've produced?  I suppose that I'm going to answer my own question now,  because the answer must be NO!  Well bred TB mares,  with a strong dam line to support them,  for instance, will show previous progeny from any given individual mare who has produced several winners.  With Sport Horses,  and the discipline isn't that important, we rarely seem to see mares who produce more than one successful youngster.  Is there a reason for this,  beyond the obvious?

The days must be gone when a mare would be considered suitable for breeding,  if she were no use for anything else.  Am I wrong in considering that the really good Advanced mare all too often isn't used for reproductive purposes until the end of her career?  Such waste.

Surely,  the mare must be the most important part of the equation.  What would I dearly love to find?  A 4/5 year old filly,  who has demonstrated that she has the required technique for whatever discipline,  that,  of vital importance, she can demonstrate a willingness to accept the pressure when asked to extend herself,  and thirdly,  as a bonus,  that she has a degree of breeding to support her new career. 

If the good and the great consider that I'm wrong,  then I'm more that happy to be told so!

Alec.

ps. I've spent the last 4 hours reading,  and then re-reading the collective thoughts,  contained within this thread.  The truth?  I'm even more confused than when I started!


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## Eothain (29 March 2010)

Welcome to the conversation Alec! I can assure you, once there's a good breeding topic being discussed, I won't run out of steam! On to your questions ...

A, I don't think that has been forgotten. It seems that things have gone half circle. They originally bought off us and now we're using or at least weighing up the pros and cons of using the fruits of their labour!

B, I agree. A prospective buyer of a showjumping horse will buy the horse based on it's talent. A good jumper is surely a good jumper if for example it is bred in Ireland using Holstein and SF lines or if bred in Ireland using ISH lines.

As for Cavalier ... What a terrible terrible loss

C, It's very hard in Ireland to find out about what 2nd and 3rd dams have produced. I'd say it's damn near impossible. Yes the Trump Carders and Queen Of Trumps lines are very well known. The Craven A line would be fairly well known too. She produced international jumpers like 007 and Clover Z as well as having jumped internationally herself. A full sister to both of those horses has gone on to produce a young Cruising sired stallion called Yeats who is a quite exciting prospect both as a stallion and as a competitive animal.
I know that HSI are trying to encourage the sales companies to change the catelogues so that they're more like thoroughbred sales catelogues with black print and more emphasis on 2nd and 3rd dams.
Without doing much research, I can safely say that the dam lines of at least 3 Continental stallions are pretty good.
Dollar Du Murier, WEG Team Gold Medallist 2002 is by Jalisco B. He in turn is by the legendary Alme. His dam is a mare called Tanagra who is by the thoroughbred sire Furioso. Tanagra produced a filly by Galoubet called Quanagra who produced the stallion Cabdula Du Tillard who is sired by the Trakenher Abdullah. At this point I feel it necessary to mention that Galoubet himself is by Alme but out of the French Trotter mare Viti. Tanagra produced another filly called Geisha N who produced the stallion Ephebe For Ever, who is by Galoubet! So you can see why I consider the Tanagra dam line quite important and why I consider it worth buying in the semen from some of her descendents.
Cornet Obolensky's dam Rabanna Van Het Costerveld is by the little known stallion Heartbreaker. Rabanna is out of the mare Holivea Van Het Costerveld. Holivea also produced Jessica Kurten's Clinton-sired jumping stallion Castleforbes Vivaldo Van Het Costerveld. So Rabanna and Vivaldo are half-siblings and when Rabanna was crossed with Clinton she produced ... Cornet Obolensky! Again, worth buying in to I think!
I'm sure I could dig up more dam-line info but the question is ... Where to start? So I don't think it's an entirely fair,  but indeed quite relevant comment about the dam-lines being forgotten. I can tell you about the dam lines of my own mares. They were never asked to do anything other than hunt and jump the occasional 1.10m at local shows. I don't think it'd be fair to write them off as broodmares just yet! I know none of you have said I should, but I'm just saying!!! Maybe an insight to why I want to go abroad to buy in semen from descendents of mares like Holivea and Tanagra?

My apologies for confusing you Alec!!!


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## Tharg (29 March 2010)

Eothain said:



			Nope, tomorrow night. Ponies first. Starting at 7
		
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I was looking at the 2008 info!

Doh!

How long do the pony's take?  I'm interested in the RID


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## hilly (29 March 2010)

a1b2c3 said:



			I have a few simple questions,  and assuming that those serious contributors haven't,  themselves,  run out of steam,  I'd be grateful for the answers.
		
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Longevity and stamina are also the hallmarks of contributors as well as the wonderful ISHs. Time, alas, is the issue so plan to brace your collective selves for further bewilderement on Wednesday when I'll respond to yourself, Doris, Simsar *high-fives Simsar* et al.

You won't miss me at Cavan - seeing as it's the season for blatant self-promotion - I shall be the one listening to Best of the 70s on my Ipod whilst carrying my Irish passport, a Galway flag and wearing my Anglo-Irish jacket with the 'BIFFO for President' badge.

TBC.


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## firm (30 March 2010)

Looking forward to it   and a full report from you all at the stallion parade please


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## Irishlife (30 March 2010)

Hi Alec, 

I will try and be succinct!!!!  Do bear in mind my opinions are just mine but I am sure you will have loads of responses.

A) TB bloodlines have been always been used to improve the quality of a breed/type and to freshen up stale bloodlines and some of the best from the UK and Ireland have been the backbone of a lot of European studbooks.  The TB is overlooked a lot of times sadly but there are some interesting TBs showing their mettle available to Irish breeders which with judicious use cannot fail to improve the quality of some of our jumping horses.

Secondly it is interesting to see a more modern type of warm blood coming through, more athletic, more blood as opposed to some of the Hanoverian battle buses of yesteryear.  Equally the performance and modern taglines have been applied to Irish Draughts in recent times, causing some divide amongst the draught people.  There is a role for traditional Irish Draughts and more modern performance type draughts and this is just another cross of blood permitted by the societies.

B) Agreed - we have our Connemaras, Kerry Bog Ponies and Irish Draughts our native breeds. Then we have the Irish Sport Horse who these days may be RIDxTB;  Warm blood xTB; or Warm blood x TBxID and any combination thereof. Ergo The Irish Sports Horse is a type also agreed. 

I think most people would think of the classic Irish horse as the traditional half bred who is in no danger of disappearing anywhere such is his popularity bravery and versatility. As for eventers  we can breed those in spades.

The one discipline where we are lacking horsepower at the top no more than the UK or USA is in show jumping (dressage is not as high profile here but it has gained serious popularity in recent times). Therefore if we wish to catch up with our continental counterparts we need to implement a breeding programme to introduce even more warm blood to the mix utilising the top bloodlines horses with proven international performance and proven progeny. 

This breeding strand for elite show jumpers should be separate to the main studbook and there is a Warm blood Studbook of Ireland in force for the last year now. It is a legitimate approved studbook and passport issuing authority who offer mare inspections at reasonable rates which gives current Irish broodmares the opportunity to become the foundation of a numbered dam line.

Proper mare inspections are to be welcomed and in my opinion, should be mandatory for all mares at 3 years of age (somewhat impractical given the size of the broodmare band here).

Horses of all types here are recorded whether they are fully approved in the main book Section A or Section B. There is also a Section One Section Two and Supplementary One and Supplementary Two defined by parameters including known breeding, conformation, veterinary and performance criteria. Therefore it is possible to breed a horse whose dam may be a premium mare, bred in the purple and resident in Section A of the studbook by a stallion who is in Section One because of not meeting the performance criteria (usually SJ, Dressage or Eventing Points). This can be because the stallion owner chooses not to compete the horse. As a consequence the progeny of that mare will only be considered for Section B of the main studbook. It does become frustrating at times.

I believe no mare should be bred from unless she has a good baseline conformation and her good points outweigh the bad. Is she the right type of mare for what I aim to breed? Her pedigree will tell me how she should perform in a given career and her relations will tell me what the odds are of her and her progeny doing the same.  If she satisfies these requirements then I agree with some of the foreign studbooks that a mare of this type should be put into foal before she starts her ridden career and if she is put into foal at three, foals at four she can start competing at five in four year old classes (for having missed the year while breeding). If she is successful, she will already have stock on the ground (big bonus for a breeder). She can still retire to being a broodmare in later years with the bonus you know what she has bred and if that progeny is making its mark, then another tick in the box for the breeder.

One of my fillies from last year I hope will be a keeper. She is out of one of my broodmares who is by Stormhill Miller (GB) out of a Furisto dam. The mare is half sister to Paul Tapners horse Stormhill Michael (7th Saumur, 18th Badminton 2009).  The filly is by Galloway (SF x Old) so on her sire line she has Galoubet, as well as Calando, Cor de La Bryere and Landgraf.  On paper the filly should perform and be an ideal broodmare candidate  only time will tell. But at the end of the day both the filly and her dam are considered Irish Sport Horses unless I have them inspected by the Warm blood Studbook of Ireland and I have made no decisions on that yet.

I will continue to breed my mares with warm blood breeding to warm blood stallions and will continue to breed my TBs and Irish blood line mares to RIDs and TBs. 

This is not succinct and has as ever turned into a ramble  apologies Alec.

Yes I agree, good mares should be the cornerstone. Ermm maybe I should have just put that at the beginning.

Yep Go Galway, I will be waving my flag at Cavan too but will have Crystal Swing on my IPod!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## coolycasey (30 March 2010)

Hello all

 THanks for a fasinating thread, i'm so glad to see a thread without all the self promotion and bickering and bitching that usually takes over in these threads. Any how I'm just wondering wheather that now due to the fact  that the Irish Horse Board have approved all these stallions will the qualification system for the RDS change? ie will they let the Irish based foreign horses compete or the breeders-owners of foreign youngstock in Ireland be able to apply for a "GREEN" passport for those animals who's sire has just being approved? or are we going to continue with the "refguee status" where it is considered that if a foal is born here he is deemed to be "IRISH"


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## Eothain (30 March 2010)

Once the foal is born in Ireland, it's elligible for the RDS qualifiers. That way the horse can be ISH, WSI, AES, IES etc and it's ok. Even if you buy a mare in from the continent that is in foal to a horse approved on the IHR and she foals in Ireland, that foal can jump in the RDS. The RDS goal is to look after Irish breeders so blue book, green book, white book regardless it can go to Dublin.
Any one go to Cavan? Stupid blizzard stopped me from heading up!!!


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## Bearskin (30 March 2010)

Loving this thread!  

Don't forget that there is still an excellent market for the traditional ID x TB in the sport horse world.  Jumbo in the UK is a very good example.....


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## GinnieRedwings (30 March 2010)

Eothain said:



			Any one go to Cavan? Stupid blizzard stopped me from heading up!!!
		
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I was wondering about that when I saw the weather forecast... I keep being drawn back to this thread and I have a question - mostly for you Eothain, but anyone else feel like giving their opinion, please go right ahead!

Ok, I don't for one second pretend to be a breeding expert, I'm quite an amateur, in fact, but I think I have an eye for a good horse, especially a good show jumper. So when I bought my broodmare, I considered her type and pedigree and although she is by Rich Rebel who is mostly a sire of eventers, she herself is very much a show jumper, in type and temperament. Irishlife was saying earlier that for a mare to be a good broodmare, her good points had to overall outweigh any bad points. I am realistic about the bad - a slight pigeon toe on one side and a very slightly heavy front end (the draught legacy, I believe ).












My aim is to breed a performance SJ horse - one that could potentially go all the way to the top. But I am also a one-broodmare band, with a limited budget and let's face it, all my eggs in one basket. So when I chose a stallion, I looked for one that can jump, that looks like he is loving his job, that's got a natural uphill movement (to hopefully counteract the slightly heavy front of Madam) and whose pedigree I like... So, this year that was Bon Balou:   
















He was only 3 years old and I loved his jumping technique, his look, the fact that he looks so game and I loved his pedigree. Im French and was brought up flying the colours of Galoubet, the ultimate SJ! Then There is Argentinus, who sired my favourite SJ, <3 Arko <3 and also Landadel.

So for my question. If the foal pops out in a couple of weeks time and turns out to be a nice looking filly would you consider her worthy of your breeding programme and if so why? and if not why not?


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## Eothain (30 March 2010)

Bearskin said:



			Loving this thread!  

Don't forget that there is still an excellent market for the traditional ID x TB in the sport horse world.  Jumbo in the UK is a very good example.....
		
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Bearskin, I'm glad you like this thread. I'm proud to be involved with it. I think it's been very productive too. It's like a big chat at this stage and all because I got very excited at the news of a few new stallions being granted approval! Funny how it snowballed into this epic 12 page thread! I know there is a huge market out there for nice, ordinary horses but my point is that I'm just not into that myself. If anything, I wouldn't even be happy to breed a horse that jumps on an Aga Khan team. I'd want to breed the entire team and reserve horse and ride on the team myself!!! But that's just me shooting for whatever is past the stars! Everybody else shoots for them, I like going a bit further than what most people aim for! (That last statement makes me sound like an arrogant b*****d. I'm not!)

As for you GinnieRedwings, my answer is yes. I like Rich Rebel actually. I know of a couple of horses by him who were 1.30 candidates but ended up in the hands of buffoons so went no further than local metre classes and the occasional 1.10m appearence! What's the mother of the Rich Rebel mare by?
I'd rate Rich Rebel ahead of some other thoroughbred stallions in Ireland who are quite hyped up as eventing sires
That's a nice stallion you chose there! I can't quite agree with you about Galoubet being the ultimate jumper as everybody in the Universe knows that title belongs to a certain icon by the name of Cruising! I'm quite fond of Galoubet's descendents too. Baloubet goes without saying but also Cabdulla Du Tillard, Ephebe For Ever and Cara Touche who I've mentioned several times in this topic, all carry his blood.
Balou Du Rouet carries Contender in his pedigree too, which is nice seeing as he's a stalwart of German breeding. I actually met him last year on my trip to Germany. Smashing horse! His handler told us that he has produced 256 international G.P winners at 3* level and above as well as producing 120 approved sons throughout the world. One of which is Montender, which surprisingly enough is a horse I intend to use!.
Argentinus ... What can I say that hasn't already been said? Sire of Cian O'Connor's 2004 Aga Khan team winning mare Irish Independent Annabella and Billy Twomey's super, multi-winning mare Anastacia, Marcus Ehning's 2003 World Cup winning mare Anka and dam sire to Dennis Lynch's Lantinus. What a stallion that Argentinus chap is!
I don't know too much about Landadel. Feel free to fill me in!

Why would I consider using her in a breeding program? Well, there's certain things I like to have in pedigrees. One of which is for a filly to be out of a mare by a thoroughbred. To me, that has the blood just close enough to the fore. I don't like horses to be too thoroughbred-y in their outlook. They can be needlessly sharp and silly then. I like then for a good jumping stallion to be put on that filly or a young horse with a superstar pedigree at least that should be a future jumper. Thank you for alerting me to this Bon Balou stallion. One to keep an eye out for!
On paper, your breeding decision ticks plenty of boxes for me!


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## Tharg (31 March 2010)

Eothain said:



			Any one go to Cavan? Stupid blizzard stopped me from heading up!!!
		
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I heard it was cancelled


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## Eothain (31 March 2010)

It was cancelled. It's on thursday week instead


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## GinnieRedwings (31 March 2010)

Eothain said:



			What's the mother of the Rich Rebel mare by?
		
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My Rich Rebel mare's dam is an RID mare called Kilbiller Clover (Clover Hill x Legaun Prince). 



Eothain said:



			I don't know too much about Landadel. Feel free to fill me in!
		
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Just quoting  the blurb from Flax Lion: G Grandsire sire Landadel (1982-1996), is regarded as the most outstanding son of the legendary Landgraf I & carries a double dose of the great stallion Ladykiller.He is known as an outstanding producer of top performing offspring in Dressage and Jumping.In the 2001 World Cups, Landadel was unique in producing representatives in both the dressage and jumping finals, with the exquisite Leondardo da Vinci in the dressage (Gonnelien Rothenberger), and in the jumping, Little Gun (Helena Weinberg).He is the sire of over 66 licensed sons including Landor S & among others he is the grandsire of Dressage Grand Prix & Performance test winner August der Starke (Argentinus) & Stedinger.
Also this article: http://www.horse-gate.com/hengste/storys/landadel/en/start.htm


Eothain said:



			Thank you for alerting me to this Bon Balou stallion. One to keep an eye out for!
		
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He is starting his jumping career under saddle and there are a couple of videos of him jumping on Youtube. I hear he is restricted to Germany for the breeding season. Not sure why but I will ask Cheryl at Flax Lion. As he is only 4 this year, this will be his first crop of foals on the ground. Mine is one of only 6 in the UK. 




Eothain said:



			On paper, your breeding decision ticks plenty of boxes for me!
		
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Why, thank you! That means a lot from someone who is shooting for beyond the stars AND showed me where the emoticons are!!! 

If the foal is a nice filly, Ill let you know


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## brianreid (31 March 2010)

i am a young breeder only 18 and have to say that i have invested time and money in to my horses. I believe that Irish mares should only be cover to the irish horses. The main people that buy our horses are people like me who want a general horse to go hunting with, do a bit of jumping with and dressage, thats why the english bought our horses but we went  to get all the europeans warmbloods horses and the english stopped buying horses off of us..  The europeans need our tb horses more then we need them. We sent all our good horses abroad and now we are taking the europeans bad horse... I have bred horse and find that the most sellable foal nowdays is the 3/4 bred horse aimed at eventing... If i wanted a High class showjumper or grand prix dressage horses i would go to holland or germany and pay good money for one. While for the allrounder i would buy irish all day long...


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## Maesfen (1 April 2010)

Thanks for that Brian; it's good to hear you're not all jumping ship and will still be breeding your lovely bread and butter horses that we need.  I freely admit, I'm more than partial to a bit of irish in my horses!
I admire Eothain and others who are aiming so high, I do hope they reach the heights they are working so hard to achieve and will be one of the first to congratulate them but it is very important that the normal riders aren't ignored as a lot of them (me included!) would not be able to ride one side of the rejects from the 'superstar squads'.


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## GrassHorse (1 April 2010)

Its very hard to breed a showjumping horse capable of competing at world level. You won't breed one by luck, well maybe one if you're very lucky. I like it when dreams come true and I like dreamers. But realisticly you have very little chance of breeding that type of horse. This is unless you have a top class mare. A mare that 1. competed at 1.35m and above or 2. she is closely related to good horses that have jumped at this level. Preferably she will have jumped >1.35m and also came from a family of jumpers. If she only has the former, she COULD be a freak. You will not breed a world athlete from a mare if she doesn't meet one of these two criteria.  Maybe, you're one of those rare genius's that can spot a talented mare, breed her to the right stallion and get a jumper. Most of the warmblood stallions in Ireland are world horses that have competed at international level. When using these warmblood stallions, to produce a top athlete, make sure the mare is as good as the stallion.


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## Alec Swan (1 April 2010)

I take it,  GrassHorse,  that the point which you are making,  is that we need to look for the VITAL level of consistency,  through the mare line.  The odd one off isn't good enough,  and I suppose that the exception doesn't always prove the rule.  Am I wrong?

Dreaming isn't such a bad thing,  providing that it sleeps with realism,,,,,,I think! 

brianreid,  there may well be some truth in what you say.

Alec.


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## Halfstep (1 April 2010)

Is there anywhere to vote for the best HHO thread of all time? 


Because I think this one is a good runner for that prize! 

Thanks everyone for their eloquent, informed, involved, and interesting input! (sorry bout that LOL). I've learned a lot from this thread, and am very happy to recognise that there is a new generation of Irish breeders (whatever they call their horses) who have their heads well and truly screwed on and are thinking carefully about what they are doing.  I foresee that in 2020 the Olympic disciplines will be full of Irish bred horses - which is exactly where they belong!


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## Irishlife (1 April 2010)

IT has been a super thread and everybody is passionate in their own way and although we are taking different roads, everyone has the preservation of the Irish horse at heart but also recognises that whether warmbloods are used, Thoroughbreds, Draughts or a combination, we need to get our foundation mares right for this new wave of elite showjumpers that we hope will take the International circuit by storm. 

Everybody no doubt has learned plenty and in ways probably polarised their viewpoint of the way forward whether a hobby or professional breeder. 

This thread has confirmed to me that continuing to breed "bread and butter" from my wonderful TBs and ISH's and see them have successful careers at any level or on the hunting field with anyone is my foundation stone. My mares who have warmblood in their pedigrees will continue to be bred out to warmbloods with the resulting offspring hopefully finding a niche in the show jumping world or being used as a breeding mare to produce one. 

Cheers everyone - its been emotional


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## Eothain (2 April 2010)

I concur. It has been a super thread. It's quite shocking how it snow balled into what it has. I mean, all I was doing was clicking my heels about Cumano and co getting approval! As for the mention of Grange Bouncer, that was originally an inside joke between myself and tiny trigger. ... Look what that turned into!
I'm a tad disappointed that the thread seems to have slowed down. I really enjoyed being involved with it and getting to give my opinion on the state of Irish breeding and how we go about improving it in the future. If that means a better general purpose horse for some or to breed with the hope that your horse will be in the main arena in Dublin on the magical first friday in August representing one of the world's top showjumping teams.

I don't think anyone is going to change their opinion of how best to breed what they're looking for. If anything, we'll all be even more sure in our belief of what we're doing!

Brian, we've all invested time and money in our horses. Too much money I bet! Regardless of that, Ireland will always have a leisure market for horses. I can only speak for myself when I say that I would not be happy breeding specifically for that market. It's just not me, I'm an all or nothing kind of person. In terms of getting high quality jumpers and dressage horses in from Holland and Germany, thats fine. If people want to do that then they're perfectly entitled to. However, I'd rather see Ireland producing a better standard of competition horse so that when the Cian O'Connor's and Conor Swail's are looking for horses, thst they'll spend their money on horses in Ireland. Keeping the money in this country, in our industry not in a Dutch or German's pocket. That's how we create a powerful, viable sector that can sustain itself and get the ISH studbook back to the top in the WBFSH rankings. We were number 1 for eventing last year, I think the dogs on the street know that title is heading to France this year. We're number 11 for showjumping and have 2 horses in the top 200 showjumpers. Not acceptable, something has to give. We don't feature in the breeding of Dressage horses at all so to get into the top 10 in that would certainly be an achievement. So while the hunting/riding club horses will always have a market and eventers too, we need to expand our market share for show jumpers. We need at least 10 horses in the top 200. Then the buyers will come back but when we start earning again, we need to keep the money circulating in this country by buying foals and three years for proper commercial prices that will motivate the average breeder, who wants to breed a horse to win the Dublin Grand Prix, to really put the time and effort into his breeding program. Then we'll have a commercial industry in this country comparable to our thoroughbred industry. As long as there's ID breeders, there'll always be general purpose horses. I will go to my death bed refusing to believe that we can't have both breeding policies in this country in the same studbook. We're lucky to have horses like Arkansas, Mermus R, Iroko, Russel, Lux Z and Luidam in this country and I feel it was an honour to have had Guidam stand here. He sired horses who took Team Gold, Individual Silver and Bronze at the last Olympics. I think the ship has sailed on the argument about Ireland having Europe's bad warmbloods. As for our 'good' thoroughbreds, where are they? Who are they? There's only a handful, if even that many.

One thing that I'd like to clear up, I was not talking about the likes of Dick Jennings, Philip Heenan or Betty Parker when I was talking about 1975-esque breeders. If they were still around, they'd still be on top of the breeding mountain. They were blessed with the gift of foresight, which many people weren't!

Alec, I hope you're no longer confused and bewildered!

I'll finish with this scary statistic:

63 horses are entered in the Grand Prix on sunday in Barndown. 35 of them are Irish bred. 15 of them are by foreign stallions. 5 have no breeding recorded. 2 are by thoroughbreds. 1 is by an RID. 3 are by Cruising and 1 is by a son of Cruising. Leaving 8 by other ISH stallions of which two are by foreign stallions. That makes for some awful depressing reading when you consider the big picture.

Cruising isn't covering anymore, both the thoroughbred sires are dead as is the RID sire. So where are we going? One thing for is sure, just like in Britain, it's a truly fascinating time to be a breeder in Ireland! I called this 'Happy Days For ISH Breeders'. My question now is, is it really? The future may well be, but certainly not now.

What's the chances of the H&H printing this thread in an upcoming edition?


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## Simsar (2 April 2010)

I too am disappointed this thread is slowing down, I think it has been educational to a lot of people, myself included. 
I sort of ran out of steam from my side of the fence and so have been spending days trying to research traditional ISH mare lines(hard when dam's aren't always recorded), I will be back to this thread when I have collated all I want too, hopefully soon.


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## Alec Swan (2 April 2010)

Simsar,

Do it.  I'm sure that your research,  and gathered thoughts,  will be of real interest.

Eothain,

This thread now seems to be separating into two parallel themes.  One being Irish breeding,  and the other being the principles of breeding,  which itself seems to be split between the breeding of riding club or top competition horses.

That the Irish no longer seem to be self sufficient in the supply of stallions must be obvious.  Is that a bad thing?  Actually,  probably not.  The competition horse has changed and been refined over the last few years.  Not only the horses,  but in the case of eventing,  then the courses too.  Consider,  for instance,  the horse Jumbo.  Were he now a young horse,  and just embarking on his career,  would he now be as successful as he was?  

I was saddened to read the final set of statistics,  which you offered.  Do the suitable TB or RID stallions, simply not exist,  or are they there but not being used?  I did some modest research into finding suitable TB stallions which had been used to breed NH horses.  The stud fees ran into the thousands,  and as my mares aren't good enough to warrant that type of expense,  then that was the end of that.

As others have said,  this is truly a fascinating thread.  Some points raised have reinforced my rather potted theories,  but then there are those which have highlighted my own inadequacies!  It's when I think that I'm making progress,  that the enormity of learning throws it all into disarray!!  I wonder if I'm alone in finding this thread rather humbling. 

For myself,  the principles which I apply,  will probably remain,  more or less,  as they are,  in that as I own the mare,  and not the stallion,  then I have to seek out those horses which will suit her,  and that as I haven't got the faintest idea about stallion selection,  then I shall continue to blunder along I suppose,  accepting the generous advice which I'm given.

My, as you accurately described it,  "bewilderment", focuses quite clearly on the principles of stallion selection,  and perhaps more importantly,  the required research.  With TBs,  it's a relatively simple matter.  You go into Wetherby's website,  you type in your mare's details,  pay three quid or so,  and bingo,  up comes a listing of the stallions which others have used on mares with similar breeding.  

There can be no doubt that the more experienced are those who consistently breed those horses which go on and succeed.  Every success which I've ever had with breeding has been luck.  Nothing more,  or less!  

This thread has been an absolute delight,  and to add to Halfstep's comments,  I would add the word "courteous",  thanks,  in no small measure,  to the Irish offerings.  Well done all of you.

In answer to your question Eothain,  no I'm not there yet,  but I'm certainly making progress!!

Right,  and finally!  Where do you see the future?  How would any of you like to see the mind set of those who breed change,  if indeed change is necessary?

Alec.


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## TomReed (2 April 2010)

I have been reading this thread with interest and I, too, applaud the spirit and tone that have characterized the discussion. In an article a year or so ago I wrote about the "learning community" that characterizes the Holsteiner breeders in Germany and most recently, in discussions with an official from the Royal Dublin Society (RDS), I highlighted the need to form a learning community within Ireland. The spirit in which this conversation has been conducted is exactly the spirit we need to make this a reality.

Here are a few points I would like to offer in relation to the breeding of international athletes.  I offer these thoughts as someone who has breed three international showjumpers, two international eventers, and several approved/licensed stallions in the last ten years. (See www.morningside-stud.com)

The most important fundamental problem in Ireland is the dearth of excellent mares. I define an "excellent mare" as a mare that descends from a damline that has produced multiple athletes (unless it is a TB damline, in which case this is usually an unreasonable expectation) and is very athletic herself with functional conformation, good to exellent jumping ability, and ideally "blood" in her genotype and athletic expression. 

The second fundamental problem is the typical breeder and the disconnect between what he or she hopes to breed (almost always a top-class showjumper or eventer) and the mare he or she brings to the party. Many of these mares could breed useful amateur horses or hunters (and these ARE legitimate breeding goals) but most of the breeders have the goal of producing competition horses and this is simply not going to happen on a reliable basis with the mares they are using.

The third fundamental problem is that Ireland became a dumping ground ten years ago for reject stallions from VDL and some other continental stud farms. Stallions that could not get approved on the continent (and in most cases were not even considered good enough to bring to a stallion inspection by their continental owners) were sent here on free leases or sold for small money (euro 5,000 - 10,000). These stallions often had very good pedigrees and breeders did not differentiate good paper from a good stallion. More recently we have been inundated with mature approved stallions sent here on leases. Breeders must ask themselves why a particular stallion is in Ireland on a lease. Is it because Ireland has a large pool of mares like Germany or France so a lot of money will be made? No, quite the opposite. Is it because Ireland has a pool of fantastic mares that will make a stallion's reputation or solidify an already good reputation? No, quite the opposite. Breeders need to become better consumers. And we still have here in Ireland stud farms that blantantly mis-represent the status of stallions. One farm publishes ads with a damline for their stallion when the stallion has no recorded dam or damline. Other farms say their stallions are "S1 Approved" when their is simply no classification of this type in Ireland -- an S1 stallion is NOT approved. Some farms say their stallions are Approved by the AES when, according to the AES' own homepage, the stallion is Registered and can only be used on the stallion owner's mares (and a maximum of 10 mares). A few stud farms have purchased top-class stallions but these are relatively few and far between.

What happens now?

The next wave will probably be Irish breeders bringing in on a much larger scale frozen and chilled semen from the continent. But this approach is doomed to failure because it does not address the most fundamental problem -- the quality of the mares -- and it ignores the fact that no breeding country has ever achieved excellence through imported semen.


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## hilly (2 April 2010)

Slow down? Not I but the demands of keeping Ark mares in nothing husbands, feed in their buckets and vets in golf clubs meant work came first this week. 

Some quick responses from this page (but lots more later on previous ones..) ..

Ginnie, very nice foundation lines there that would work best with a blood-type sire so youre on the right track - Clover & Legaun Prince will balance the Baloubet fire; Rich Rebel is a well-regarded event sire so a multi-purpose foal. I have one mare that would suit a warm blood and  should her dance card ever clear, would choose Harlequin du Carel - four crosses of Orange Peel (Baloubet has a couple of crosses) which is difficult to find in TB lines here. See? Im like warm bloods but like any breed, they have to suit the mare & vice versa and I have to see a market for the end product.

Brian - you are a breath of fresh air! Tell me youre from the west of Ireland where pragmatic people are bred? Some examples of why youre a dose of reality ..all from the mouths of young breeders:

Carnival Night? What was he? A Draught?  

Eothain - look away. Cruising.. Whos he? A response from young livery client when shown friends  new arrival, a Cruising grand-son. Youngster can recite Moorland Totilas pedigree by heart and went to Olympia as a Christmas present but had not heard of Cruising.

Where exactly would you find a curb? from a well-known young breeder at the sales ringside who had spent an hour berating the traditional breeder beside him for being old-fashioned . Auctioneer had just called out the veterinary cert details which left the youngster flummoxed despite an ability to rhyme off every fashionable sire. 

He should breed eventers; hes got a pretty head and have you seen his extended trot?

You have made my day.

Everyone else is on the same boat - we know what we have to do. Breed from good mares. The Irish reality is only 100 mares have been identified in the mare herd , thanks to  far-seeing owners with deep pockets , that have jumped 1.40m and are under 19 years of age.

Only five of these have produced progeny that jumped to 1.40m level. 

We cant keep blaming the TB sire scapegoat for these statistics as there are so many other factors. (for later!).

There is a growing resentment amongst Irish breeders that theyre being treated like village idiots. They KNOW what they have to do but there isnt a magic wand solution that will put Irish-bred jumpers back on top in one generation. 

And while the sky is falling in for show jumping-fixated breeders, the powers-that- be need to  work on the eventing studbook NOW, not more expert groups in 2040 when were in 15th place in the WBFSH rankings.  That lead will slip away too because it isnt being salvaged now. In tandem with all the quick-fix show jumping solutions, there should be measures to identify successful eventing lines and mares; embryo transfer packages for advanced mares etc. 

Eric - feel free to join the BBC - Bewildered Breeders Co-op. Were off to the British Open this weekend to picket - we want show jumping courses changed to c.1950; eventing reverting to proper formats, not dumbed down handy hunter courses,  and for Stephen  Hadley to be reinstated as a show jumping commentator who knows what hes talking about and is one of the greatest ambassadors for Irish horses.

Or come visit us at the Home for Bewildered Breeders - on Friday nights and Sunday afternoons we get to watch Hickstead Derby re-runs. Bring your own popcorn.

Eothain - you will not live down the Grange Bouncer/Huntingfield Rebel references.  

Im afraid Im going to differ again with you on the Old Greats - they would not be at the top of their game now. An eye for a stallion has been replaced by  charts and native breeds having to jump through circus hoops,. I would dearly love to know what Dick J would have thought of the present arrangement where stallions go to Traffic School and mares go back to the classroom to earn gold stars.  All very laudable but in the middle of one of  our worst recessions, not the best timing for stallion and mare owners.

Betty saw the writing on the wall and knew the glory days were over for show jumpers. The lovely thing about her was she was as proud of Sure Coin winning the Grand Prix as she would have been of Capitol Coin winning the Pony Club combined training class at Dublin last year. A truly remarkable lady. 

Philip would not feature today. Im sure if he was still alive he would still keep a couple of  non-registered stallions for a trickle of loyal and local customers. He was a very shrewd characters and knew his 15 minutes of fame were due to the Clover Hill phenomenon with Ballinvella as a reliable second. Few have the patience today to sit on a railway sleeper bench for a day - its drive-thru studs , hyped-up stallions, all-dancing websites and $£.

It was a golden age that couldnt last  but for me now, THEY were happy days.  Nostalgia is a dangerous thing but watching Philip at work - he was a genius and as good as a vet  - or listening to other breeders  - no big or small breeders in Philips eyes -  queued on that bench was a priceless experience. 

But everything is cyclical. Those days are long gone.  Sadly, some of the main characters too which is why my Clover/Philip book project has gone on a tangent. Realised while researching the book how much of our equine history is slipping away; these older generation approach a computer with the same trepidation as Ben Parker the Alsatian pup Betty gave Philip in-lieu of a stud fee and who zealously guarded his yard. 

Younger breeders can recite about Cardento, Cor de la Bryere, Landgraf etc because that information is easily accessible online - theres precious little about Irish greats. But these old boys (and girls) know! It is genuinely touching to spend a Sunday afternoon recording them - session starts off with the usual bashful response sure why would you want to talk to me? I wouldnt know a lot but once the ice is broken, amazing stories, gaps filled in half-forgotten pedigrees of stallions, mares and show jumping greats, even home-made recipes for neddy ailments long before homeopathic medicine became fashionable again. 

Oh dear, Ive gone over the H&H word count by now.  But run out? A good ISH never runs out or slows down.


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## angrovestud (2 April 2010)

I have been watching this wonderful thread since it was first posted, and now feel brave enough to add a little something William Micklem has a wonderful Blog, and has researched the TB's that the Europeans use,  he has Identified which TBs are useful for each sector Dressage, ShowJumping, and Eventing,  I belive this to be a valuable benchmarking tool, so very useful to the breeder is the stallions he has indentified 250  TB sires which have been catagorised in to decades, so at least the breeder may go in search of these lines and may cross them with some degree of compatability for the job discription.

William does some wonderful research work very valuable.

http://www.barnmice.com/profiles/blogs/even-mark-todd-can-be-led-2


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## Maesfen (2 April 2010)

Hilly!  I do want a copy of that book when it's complete, it sounds fascinating and you must have had so much fun researching it!

This thread has been a delight to read, so much so that I am going to print it out later so I can read it at my leisure without having to scroll back and to (geek, eek!)

Does anyone else think we should ask Admin to sticky this as not only a shining example of how civilised a thread should be but for the educational content it's given us?  I can't think of another thread which has given me so much pleasure to read and learn from so a huge thank you to everyone who has taken part; it's been a absolute privilage.


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## hilly (2 April 2010)

Doris68 said:



			Here are a few thoughts from an Irish Draught enthusiast :


 1. The IHB contributed to the demise of the ID by performance testing ID stallions. When they did this they concentrated only on jumping ability and paid little or no consideration to correct conformation, good limbs etc that were found in the old draught mares. The legacy that the IHB left was lighter, poor limbed horses that were lacking in both quality and type.
2. What they should have done was to INSPECT and seek out top class TB's, not only as sires, but also good brood mares to cross with the ID stallions (although I accept the TB sire on the ID mare is best).  The difficulty is that the TB type has changed as flat race breeding has been introduced into NH horses.  The supply of the ''old fashioned'' National hunt horses is almost non existent.   
3. The grants paid to AID mares contributed to the demise.  It encouraged all farmer breeders to breed from anything that resembled an ID regardless of its quality and with no considerations to what the aims were, other than breeding a foal.  That money should have been used to promote a selective breeding programme to preserve the best ID bloodlines, then cross the progeny with stallions as in [2].  That way we would have still had the show quality half-breds that we had 20 yrs ago, which are as rare as hens teeth now. If we wanted eventers, we could use a second cross of TB.  Having said that, there are a lot of half-bred/ three eight  ID's doing very well in eventing to International level ( e.g. Headley Brittania, Lenamore etc )
		
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Irish Draughts - my personal views  .. Where to begin? We have treated them abominably and were it not for the success of Draughts like Clover, KOD and Pride of Shaunlara and a handful of dedicated breeders here and daughter societies worldwide, the breed would be in an even more precarious state.  

I have to admire the chutzpah of Draught enthusiasts who claim those three as their own. Its on a par with the KWPN! That trio were not Draughts - Clover was by Golden Beaker (TB); KOD had a TB grand-dam and Prides dam was by a blue-blood TB sire, Prefairy. But it was felt they had enough Draught characteristics and a dash of blood to upgrade mares, hence they were approved. 

It was ONLY because  of their TB fuel injection that they got jumpers and became success stories. Breeders jumped wholesale onto the Draught bandwagon, majority were disappointed with the results performance-wise and the Draught backlash began. 

The Draught is a foundation breed. It is not a performance animal. The TB x ID cross was one of the, if not the very best, F1 crosses in animal breeding history - possible Furioso, Ladykiller, Son In Law - on French mares can claim the same success. 

But I cant think of any other foundation breed that has to jump through similar circus hoops - Gelderlanders, French trotters, Welsh ponies ..where else in the world are they performance tested?  Irish Draughts can jump but ..my view ..their primary function is as a foundation breed and to perpetuate the best of the breed. 

National Hunt sires..now theres an interesting thought.  I also wholeheartedly agree with Mary McCanns recent comments about Connie sires being used to reinvigorate the breed; something Ive often suggested amongst Draught circles. 

Heresy to some but think about it; the real Draught is a bigger cousin of our native pony breed; they have the same characteristics - bone, temperament, fifth leg, the ability to thrive on fresh air and larger-than-life character. Perfect match and it will reduce the height. 

Too-tall, leggy Draughts are viewed with suspicion because of possible cold blood ancestors. That aside, and a topic for another day, but looking to the future, say 50/60 years time .. is there a market for 17 hand monsters?  

I think I mentioned Presenting in another thread -  he is one of the most handsome and imposing sires in the flesh, selected by the late Liam Cashman, who sadly passed away recently and another gifted with an eye for a stallion. Although it would make a remarkable coup for the breed to have Presenting crossed with, say, the Dublin champion ID mares of recent years, more realistically I would love to see Presenting daughters in the mare herd.

Or Rain Trap, an Elite TB sire, built like a Quarter Horse and  a very similar type to Prefairy. Both Presenting and Rain Trap also offer the Vimy line which is all but gone in our mare herd and for those interested in breeding eventers, this is gold dust.

I have no doubt that those behind grants for ID breeders had the very best intentions. It just went horribly wrong. Anyone who had an acre bought a Draught  or a Connemara to cash in; likewise in our short-lived Celtic Tiger boom, people spent pounds to make pennies. What the majority bought may have had a Draught passport and secured a REPS grant/headage payment but had as much resemblance to a true Draught as a cat to a dog. 

One of the few benefits to come out of the boom was  those Draught breeders, who stuck with the breed when owning a Draught was like owning a Lada, finally got some financial reward when foals fetched up to 14k in the salesring. And more at home .. 

Next likely scenario is those redundant Draught scrubs will now be covered by warm bloods. Neither one thing or the other but will lead to more bloodbaths at the sales.

The Draught is a foundation breed; its role is to provide future stallion and  broodmare material for Draught purists, heavyweight show hunters and cobs; police horses and a super-economical  horse for the hunting/leisure market. Have you ever met a Draught that needed milk pellets or calmers? 

When crossed with TBs, any resultant fillies will  have  a role in breeding sport horses, although most likely in the third/fourth generation.

Part-breds can do lots of jobs. Lenamore is indeed a gem. And others like him.

But to expect the pure Draught  to be an all-singing, all-dancing world athlete? Nonsense.


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## hilly (2 April 2010)

Simsar said:



			Hilly, you are my soul mate. Absolutely brilliant posts, it is nice to have someone agreeing with me as I don't fully understand what is going on in Ireland as I live in Surrey!!! So have just been rambling my feelings and the little knowledge that I do have on the subject. 

It really has turned into a great debate and I'm quite proud to have been part of it.

Click to expand...


Simsar - thanks for fighting the Draught corner. Like I said in the above post, its thanks to the enthusiasts in the UK and America that some rare bloodlines were preserved and they are a wonderful, noble breed.  I would be greatly worried if you professed to have a big knowledge on the subject, there are perhaps too many Desk Experts and not enough foot soldiers so less is more.

Yes, the Irish background is very different. In my original post, I mentioned the cash crop mentality amongst farmer-breeders so Draughts do have to pay their way here on farms and sentimentality is as rare as Irish-breds in the show jumping rankings right now. 

I can see a meet-up at the Draught Show one day. Doris too. 

p.s: How do I go Advanced and use proper emoticons? Are we talking Advanced Dressage or Eventing? Do I have to be performance tested. Oh never mind, these  will do.


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## hilly (2 April 2010)

Irishlife said:



			I was privileged to know Pat Geraghty and Carling King (briefly) and we had some fine times at Glenamaddy in the days (not that long ago) when the stallions would be fighting it out in 1.60 masters competitions - Coille Mor Hill (RID), Welcome Flagmount (RID deceased sad loss) and Captain Clover by Clover Hill (ISH). All different shapes and sizes but Irish and brave with a fifth leg when it mattered. 

To Eothain, I was not suggesting that mares bred to genetically valuable stallions would not have good confomation, I just feel the match making should involve pedigree research in a considered process as the stakes are so high given AI variables, price of straws etc.
Also anothr Q for Eithain - do you intend to have any of your mares inspected by the Warmblood studbook of Ireland or will you stick with IHB?.   I have one mare who would be eligible but then I am moving down a very different pathway...... 

I think Hilly said she would be in Cavan Tuesday, Eothain? anyone else? PM me and maybe we could all grab a drink at some stage during the evening.
		
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Irish life - apologies. I was skimming through posts earlier this week and missed this Cavan  suggestion. We got word on the way there about the cancellation so not too much of a road trip.

Glenamaddy was a fabulous place as Pat was such a kind host. I'm a big Captain Clover fan, he punches above his weight and one of the most quality Clover Hill sires around.


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## hilly (2 April 2010)

Eothain said:



			The best county? Galway? Puh-lease! Surely that's a mistake on your behalf. I was taking everything you had to say quite seriously. You know, really trying to take it on board like but then you go and make a comment like that! Completely undermining yourself. Galway ... pfff!


As for Ballyser Twilight being the last traditional ISH Dublin GP winner, I'm sure Mo Chroi (Cruising x Mister Lord) would take issue with that!
		
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Eothain, I got it wrong. Mo Chroi was indeed the last Grand Prix winner. I could put it down to the MSG overload of that hastily-microwaved Sunday lunch after posting here ..but having seen what youve said about Galway..there will now be no humble pie for dessert. 

WHAT has Offaly produced? Whereas Galway has produced the legendary Clover Hill; his son, Carling King - the best individual Olympic result by an Irish competitor - Imperial Commanders jockey, Paddy Brennan, most popular race meeting - Galway Races; home of the Galway Blazers, Dubarry Boots AND the Connemara pony .. 

Offaly? *thinks hard* Brian Cowen? Pride of Shaunlara? 

Galway rules.

The only concession granted is if our esteemed Prime Minister does indeed make you Director of Horse Breeding that you put your Farmville habit to good use and make virtual horse-farming compulsory for Bandwagon Breeders instead of doing untold damage with the real herd. 

I will be back later, once tongue has been unwelded from cheek, with more thoughts. 

All jesting aside, yes, it is good to see a positive exchange of thoughts and ideas. Prior to the Ping! Sunday lunch, the last time I felt so nauseous on the HHO board was reading certain posts last year regarding British breeding. 

If you can't say something positive or have some constructive suggestions, a gag snaffle is best used.


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## pip6 (2 April 2010)

Realise this isn't part of the discussion, but wondered if any of you knowlegable ISH people would pm me. I have an ISH broodmare (by IDSH stallion out of nh tb mare) & would love more info on her breed lines. She has bred us 2 lovely girls (which we hope to sell for competition), with the stallion choice based on her conformation/temperament. It would be great to know more about her lines for future potential husband choices as my knowledge is strictly Crabbet arabs. Any willing volunteers please?


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## Simsar (2 April 2010)

Eothain I seem to remember you saying that you never had the chance to own a 'Cruising' well if you are interested I have just seen one for sale in H&H out of a Clover Hill mare, might be of interest to you??? Page 112, 2nd one down on left. Picture not great but might be worth a look as only a 4yr old??


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## Blacklist (2 April 2010)

"We seem to forget the origin of the Warmblood.  Today, the term "Warmblood" refers to a specific subset of sport horse breeds that are used for competition in dressage and show jumping. Strictly speaking, the term "warm blood" refers to any cross between cold-blooded and hot-blooded breeds. These originate in crosses of Thoroughbred or Arab horses with European coach and draft horses or from mixtures.  

As they originate from different lines with different purposes, the appearance of the warmblood breeds lies between the extremes Thoroughbred and draft horse. However,  the term 'Warmblood' did once only apply in mainland Europe. International practice defined crosses and mixtures as "part-bred" or "half-bred". Examples include breeds such as the Irish Draught or the Cleveland Bay" 

And of course some say that the original 'Irish Draught' a cross between a TB stallion and a Percheron/Shire/Clyde or other draught breed. Hunted one or two days a week,  pulling half a plough etc on the other days.

Some seem to be forgetting the merits of the TB and draught horse mixture as foundation stock for the GB and Irish Sport Horse. 

I could be old fashioned and out of touch - but many will agree with me (I hope)

Ireland has always produced excellent sport horses as has GB and I'm sure they will continue to do so.


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## Eothain (2 April 2010)

a1b2c3 said:



			Eothain,  

I was saddened to read the final set of statistics,  which you offered.  Do the suitable TB or RID stallions, simply not exist,  or are they there but not being used?  I did some modest research into finding suitable TB stallions which had been used to breed NH horses.  The stud fees ran into the thousands,  and as my mares aren't good enough to warrant that type of expense,  then that was the end of that.

As others have said,  this is truly a fascinating thread.  Some points raised have reinforced my rather potted theories,  but then there are those which have highlighted my own inadequacies!  It's when I think that I'm making progress,  that the enormity of learning throws it all into disarray!!  I wonder if I'm alone in finding this thread rather humbling. 

For myself,  the principles which I apply,  will probably remain,  more or less,  as they are,  in that as I own the mare,  and not the stallion,  then I have to seek out those horses which will suit her,  and that as I haven't got the faintest idea about stallion selection,  then I shall continue to blunder along I suppose,  accepting the generous advice which I'm given.

In answer to your question Eothain,  no I'm not there yet,  but I'm certainly making progress!!

Right,  and finally!  Where do you see the future?  How would any of you like to see the mind set of those who breed change,  if indeed change is necessary?

Alec.
		
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Ok, in relation to the Grand Prix stats, the RID stallion mentioned is Glidawn Diamond, who grazes now in the paddock in the clouds. One of the ISH stallions who have progeny jumping this weekend is Coolcorron Cool Diamond who in turn, is by Glidawn Diamond. In my opinion, we're missing Draught stallions of his calibre and the country is all the poorer for his loss. Horses like him, Sea Crest, the Flagmount brothers and Diamond Lad don't come along very often and I think we need to make better use of the best of our home grown bloodlines. I know that for the next few years I'll be buying semen in from abroad and I might seem hypocritical but as I've said before, my goal is to produce a better quality mare to breed to the good younger ISH stallions to create new lines for breeding. At the same time, when we next a RID stallion rise above the rest, I'll be twisting people's arms to make sure he gets used on their best mares.
I will try my best to ensure that we never again see a day where stallions like Errigal Flight, Coevers Diamond Boy, Puissance, Clover Brigade and Clover Flush hit their twenties and have no sons to carry on their genes. I have organised three mares to go to Puissance this year and I am hunting for a colt foal by him and Errigal Flight. If I see one I like that might well make a stallion with a good damline then it _will_ be mine, so help me God!
The same can be said for our thoroughbreds. We know we need them. There's no denying that at all. Where are they though? I mean, if a horse like Flemensfirth or Presenting were to cover a Sport Horse mare, then they would be cast aside in the thoroughbred world and be totally non-commercial. So we need somebody with deep pockets to go and buy a colt by one of these horses out a black type mare especially for the Sport Horse sector. Will it happen? I hope so but I doubt it. The thoroughbred stallion has changed from the big, rangey horse of yesteryear to the horse we have today. 
I wonder has the fact that Irish racing is now the best in the world got anything to do with the decline in the old type thoroughbred? When we were producing the thoroughbred we still need today, Irish racing was considered the poor cousin to Britain and the U.S. Coincidence? I think not!

I do see a future for Irish breeding. We're facing into a hard slog to get back to the top. The only thing I want is acceptance from all sides that the sports we're breeding for have changed. Anybody who breeds a Nations Cup showjumper using traditional methods and thinking has my complete and utter respect for sticking to their guns and winning the shootout. Similarily, any one who breeds the same standard of horse using foreign horses also has my complete and utter respect for thinking outside the box and getting to their goal. Once the ISH studbook gets back into the overall top 5 in the WBFSH rankings in the next 10 or 15 years, I'll be happy. Then we'll have a commercially viable breeding sector. I don't care what goals people are breeding for, once you breed something that achieves what you aimed for.


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## Alec Swan (2 April 2010)

Eothain,

I've just got part way down your post and it can't wait!!

So you'd like a colt foal by Puissance,  would you?  Well,  I happen to have one. Now 8 months old.  Out of a mare by Lucky Gift ex a Ballyfrunct ID.  The mare has a real jump.  Two years ago,  when the book for Master Imp was closed,  his owners told the previous owners of our mare to get her over to Ireland,  and they'd cover her.

If he's of any interest to you,  then you'd better send me a PM,  and a bit sharpish,  he's due for gelding!! 

Alec.


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## GrassHorse (2 April 2010)

I was talking with Dessie Noctor at Tara Hill Stud a few weeks ago. Dessie is a interesting guy. As a friend of mine said " a priest would'nt be trained to give as a good a serman as Noctor". Anyway, he showed me a mare and said thats the kind of mare you need to be breeding. The mare was a half clyde ( she was by an Irish Draught out of a clydesdale mare) and he said if you crossed her with a thoroughbred you would breed a real nice horse. I thought no more of this until a few days later when I was talking my friend. I was telling him about Dessie and what he had to say about "dumbloods", Dessie has no time for warmbloods. My friend only breeds to warmbloods but he is always open to what other people have to say. So I told him about the half clyde mare and what Dessie was saying. My friend said that his father who is long dead, god rest his soul, said the very same thing. His father always said that the Irish Draught got too much credit for the showjumpers of the past and that a lot to those show jumpers were out of half clyde mare. 
Just thought that was an interesting story, anything to keep this tread going!


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## Eothain (2 April 2010)

Ok, now that the fish has been eaten, it's time for part 2.

Hilly, your stories about the young breeders are actually shocking. What's worse; people who have forgotten more than most people will ever know but are all too happy to turn a blind eye to advancements in sport and the like or people who are all a front and can rattle off pedigrees but not much else? ... Who's Cruising? What was Carnival Night? Rule #1 of anything: Know where you come from, know your roots.

I don't want to live down the Bouncer/Rebel quotes. I can't see them producing top class athletes and while they are among the best the ID have to offer, they highlight the need for opening the breeds borders to the Connemaras and some Thoroughbreds. I would like to see the ID as more than just foundation stock. Maybe they'll allow some Irish-bred progeny of Moorlands Totilas be registered as ID! Or am I playing the mad scientist again?

Simsar, I will have to have a look at said Cruising horse. Is it a mare? I've a couple of horses going to Goresbridge in May so maybe ... ... ..!

Alec, you geld away. Before I go looking for said colt foals, I've many many mouths to send to pastures new. All I can pay people with at the moment are I.O.Us!!!

Half-Clyde mares? Really? Now that is interesting!


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## hilly (3 April 2010)

angrovestud said:



			I have been watching this wonderful thread since it was first posted, and now feel brave enough to add a little something William Micklem has a wonderful Blog, and has researched the TB's that the Europeans use

http://www.barnmice.com/profiles/blogs/even-mark-todd-can-be-led-2

Click to expand...


Skipping a couple of posts which I'd like to respond to in more depth later .. and now there's William's blog to add to the To Do list! Didn't know he kept one but should be good reading. Thanks for the tip-off ;-) 



MFH9 said:



			Hilly!  I do want a copy of that book when it's complete, it sounds fascinating and you must have had so much fun researching it!
		
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Maybe too much fun at times! Vowed it would be the first and last book but there has been so much additional info gathered, (some not from Philip's friends/customers) that there is plenty of material for a second on these characters. Or publish it in a series of online articles once the Clover book is completed. The original transcripts from the interviews will also be made available to the History/Folklore department of UCG.

Actually, I wonder if there are any Clover Hill progeny owners on HHO with their own tales to add, there's a thought.


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## hilly (3 April 2010)

pip6 said:



			Realise this isn't part of the discussion, but wondered if any of you knowlegable ISH people would pm me. I have an ISH broodmare (by IDSH stallion out of nh tb mare) & would love more info on her breed lines. She has bred us 2 lovely girls (which we hope to sell for competition), with the stallion choice based on her conformation/temperament. It would be great to know more about her lines for future potential husband choices as my knowledge is strictly Crabbet arabs. Any willing volunteers please?
		
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Yes, send it on. There's lots of online info available on the Irish Horse Board/Horse Sport Ireland current sires, foal registers and some of their marebooks - go to www.ihb.ie and check out Publications. That will give you a lead on the 'usual suspects', plus their progeny's performance records. 

S1 or S2 stallions/long deceased ones are harder to access but I have the hard copy details going back to the 70's and am familiar with the majority of the old-timers so might be able to help.


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## ruby1 (3 April 2010)

What a wonderfully,educating and friendly post. I have enjoyed reading every word and like a good book i have continued to come back for more,long may it continue.


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## hilly (3 April 2010)

Blacklist said:



			"We seem to forget the origin of the Warmblood.  Today, the term "Warmblood" refers to a specific subset of sport horse breeds that are used for competition in dressage and show jumping. Strictly speaking, the term "warm blood" refers to any cross between cold-blooded and hot-blooded breeds. These originate in crosses of Thoroughbred or Arab horses with European coach and draft horses or from mixtures.  

As they originate from different lines with different purposes, the appearance of the warmblood breeds lies between the extremes Thoroughbred and draft horse. However,  the term 'Warmblood' did once only apply in mainland Europe. International practice defined crosses and mixtures as "part-bred" or "half-bred". Examples include breeds such as the Irish Draught or the Cleveland Bay" 

And of course some say that the original 'Irish Draught' a cross between a TB stallion and a Percheron/Shire/Clyde or other draught breed. Hunted one or two days a week,  pulling half a plough etc on the other days.

Some seem to be forgetting the merits of the TB and draught horse mixture as foundation stock for the GB and Irish Sport Horse. 

I could be old fashioned and out of touch - but many will agree with me (I hope)

Ireland has always produced excellent sport horses as has GB and I'm sure they will continue to do so.
		
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I would certainly agree that a warmblood is a mixture of hot and cold blooded-breeds - one of the apt description of the Irish sporthorse is a 'glorious mongrel'. The Irish Draught was not so much a cold blood or heavy draught type (as in Percheron, Shire or Clydesdale) but a halfway horse between the two. The origins of the Draught go back to the Irish hobby horse of medieval times; the main overseas blood actually came from Andulasian blood when Spanish traders exported horses to Ireland. You can still see this influence today, centuries later, from the convex profile to high action and dishing in some cases; flea-bitten greys are known to this day in parts of Co Cork as 'Spanish horses'.

There were other influences, Cleveland Bays, Welsh cobs and the heavy draught breeds but they are now very much frowned upon by Draught breeders. White above the knee or splashes of white on bellies are considered signs of heavy draught markings; flat feet, long backs and round, rather than flat bone, are other hints.

The traditional Draught was a short-legged, compact type, very nimble action and very different from the taller, coarser types found where the Shires and Clydes were imported for transport and farm work. 

Because they were powerful but an athletic type of Draught, the Irish version was 'conscripted' in vast numbers for various European armies. Like many studbooks, the breed suffered huge losses in WWI, to a lesser extent in WWII while food shortages in post-war years meant a demand for horsemeat, particularly in mainland Europe.  Not surprisingly, the British market was squeamish about this commodity with many housewives using their ration as pet food instead.

Over the course of WWI, 8 million horses were killed. Not only the Irish Draught, but all the breeds used by European cavalry had untold damage done to their bloodlines. A little-know but main reason the German, French and Austrian cavalry remount officers sourced TB stallions in the British Isles from the nineteenth century onwards was nothing to do with laying down the foundation of the modern warmblood but to upgrade native mares to produce cavalry horses.  Likewise, premium classes held at agricultural shows in the British Isles were designed to improve the pool of available remounts, this was part of the original remit of the HIS and the Royal Agricultural Society. 

Showjumping and eventing were completely military-orientated pastimes in the beginning of the sports; cavalry officers were encouraged to hunt to improve their seat and many of the great instructors, de Nemethy, Rodzianko and Wofford were graduates of cavalry schools. 

So some positive outcomes but the background to the modern warmblood - and the Irish sporthorse is one in many respects - had little to do with shaping future competition horses but a much more strategic aim.

Anyhow, gone into History Mode. Normal service will now resume. 




GrassHorse said:



			I was talking with Dessie Noctor at Tara Hill Stud a few weeks ago. Dessie is a interesting guy. As a friend of mine said " a priest would'nt be trained to give as a good a serman as Noctor". Anyway, he showed me a mare and said thats the kind of mare you need to be breeding. The mare was a half clyde ( she was by an Irish Draught out of a clydesdale mare) and he said if you crossed her with a thoroughbred you would breed a real nice horse. I thought no more of this until a few days later when I was talking my friend. I was telling him about Dessie and what he had to say about "dumbloods", Dessie has no time for warmbloods. My friend only breeds to warmbloods but he is always open to what other people have to say. So I told him about the half clyde mare and what Dessie was saying. My friend said that his father who is long dead, god rest his soul, said the very same thing. His father always said that the Irish Draught got too much credit for the showjumpers of the past and that a lot to those show jumpers were out of half clyde mare. 
Just thought that was an interesting story, anything to keep this tread going!
		
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Dessie is quite a character!  Mentioned -all going well at foaling and if we get a filly foal - that the next & final husband for my Clover Hill mare is a Connemara, Dessie has booked it  if it's a colt!  Looking for a Connie x Clover Hill or Diamond Lad cross as he reckons there's a huge demand for such a handy type but thought no owner of such mares would use a Connie. *waves hand* 

His neighbour, Ned Byrne, bred a colt foal by the local Thoroughbred down the road, from such a Clydesdale/Connemara mare  - the end result was Ryan's Son and she was the mare mentioned earlier who failed two Bord na gCapall (Horse Board's predecssor) inspections. Go figure.

While the Clyde influence is very much frowned upon in Draught circles, they do feature in back pedigrees of some famous showjumpers, some of the golden oldies here will remember Janet Hunter's Lisnamarrow - another TB x part-Clyde. There have always been whispers about Clover Hill having Scottish ancestors too ..


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## Irishlife (4 April 2010)

Hi All

A bit of a random post but still on topic.

Hilly, fascinating stuff as ever. I also read recently that the American Quarter Horse descends from the early exports of draughts to North America, again it mentions also the influence of Spanish horses. Must be where quarter horses get their huge backsides from! I must also say - the Ghareeb foals (pictures in another post) - fabulous. They are exquisite. Ghareeb can do no wrong in my eyes and will look forward to the Watermill Swatch pictures in due course.
Kylemore do stand some good sorts. I wasn't especially impressed with French Buffet but have seen some lovely offspring.

Thoroughbreds x Connemaras without doubt the most underated of all Irish breds. I showjumped and hunted them as a teenager and my daughter started her riding career on them. We presently have a 15 year old show hunter who not only excelled at that job but won Prelim dressage champs, showjumps at 1.20, won a couple of one day training events and still hunts like the clappers all winter. He is by a TB called Brevet  (Busted, Crepello et al) out of a Connemara mare - I wish every teenager could have one - brilliant creatures . They are as handy as cats, brave, intelligent and beautiful to look at with all the best qualities of both breeds. 

My daughter was interviewed for Ireland's Equestrian magazine a couple of years ago representing the views of a young breeder along with Claire McDonnell (Mo Chroi), Luke Morley (mare Leader Star), Loftus O'Neill and William Little (not a warmblood breeder in sight!!). She promoted the TB x CP cross as something that should be utilised more. I have always loved them anyway so this year our small TB will be having a liaison with a Connemara stallion this year which is something a bit different for us.

Rambling on.............

I am sure many of us here have read it , but for those who have not, I thoroughly recommend a called "Breakfast the Night Before (Recollections of an Irish Horse Breeder)" by Marjorie Quarton. For anyone wishing to follow a lifetime spent moving from fair to fair, buying remounts for the military and breeding and breaking a few plus the inevitable "characters" littered along the way, it is essental reading and quite one of my favourites.

Still dithering over stallions but off to a stallion parade on Monday and the re-scheduled Cavan. Hopefully I will make my decisions this week.

Happy Easter Everyone and may all your foals be fillies


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## Maesfen (4 April 2010)

Another bit random too but perhaps I can pick your brains please.

I have a nice mare, only 15 hands, built like a proper hunter but on short legs!  Moves very well but has done nothing yet; would think she'd make a cracking cross country machine.
She's by Old Leighlin (Laughtons Flight x Pallas Choice who was by Leabeg) out of a Connemara JC jumping machine, breeding unknown to me.
I'd just like to know which way you Irish people would jump with her bearing in mind, I would only go Irish or TB, no warmbloods need apply.  Would you go back to a Connemara or an ISH, or to a full ID or TB?  My aim is a decent looking bread and butter with ability to turn its hand decently to anything.
I haven't a decent pic so this video is of her first day here (don't look at the state of the feet, badly needed trimming!)


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## hilly (4 April 2010)

Now I am on the same page! Yes, it clicked when you mentioned the 2008 Horse Board award winners. ;-) Your daughter was in very good company, not only on the night but in the Young Breeders competition series that year and if we have more 'thinking outside the box' breeders like her in the next generation, all good.

In hindsight, the awards should have been after the (much shorter) AGM as I only met two of the other winners that night and there was no group photo opportunity as understandably, those with long journeys had already left.

Loftus was a founding member of the Old Greats, a very quiet, modest gentleman. One of the best tales about him was a 0-60 Breeder striking up a conversation with another onlooker at the Dublin ringside. 0-60 proceeded to spread the gospel about Irish breeding, the best (and worst) sires, 'great' horses he had bred in the past 5 years since he started. "Have you heard of King of Diamonds? Now, you should try and get a KOD mare, if you haven't one of them you're going nowhere" yadda yadda. When he had finally run out of steam, his captive audience member politely excused himself and it was only after he moved away that 0-60's companion, enjoying every moment of the 'sermon', nudged him and said "Did you know who that was? Loftus O'Neill".  

Marjorie's book is fantastic, she has a lovely way of writing and capturing the character of the sellers and farmers. A hard-learned mistake, I loaned it to someone .. 'neither a borrower or a lender be'.. Kenny's Bookshop in Galway have it on my watchlist as copies are scarcer than hen's teeth. Likewise, Alex Fell' book about Irish Draughts - another must-read for anyone interested in the breed. 

Fingers crossed for foaling, all three are off to Kylemore's mareternity wing as they did a fantastic job foaling the two Ghareeb colts and getting the Clover Hill mare in foal at the first attempt. Through absolutely no fault of her own, she's had more downs than ups in recent years and that was her final chance before retiring. 

I'm very much looking forward to a colt, it's going to be a colt, (reverse psychology wishful thinking) with it's dam's trademark satellite dish ears; the blood-type chestnut is in foal to Rebel so either another cracking 'all Irish mare' or an Intermediate/small show hunter, (a job for every horse) and her big bay daughter is still in size 8 rugs and gallumping around. She fooled us last year by producing the other Ghareeb, a very leggy bay colt so not 'panicking' yet. 

No firm plans until they've safely foaled but Templebready Fear Bui for the Clover Hill mare would produce  my dream 'keeper horse'.  A small chance that it would be my favourite colour, dun ..then again, there was a dun (okay, colour purists, buckskin) ancestor lurking in Clover's ancestry so anything is possible.

Have lots of more 'serious' thoughts to add about Cavalier etc but the sun is shining so for another time. 

Happy Easter!


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## hilly (4 April 2010)

MFH9 said:



			Another bit random too but perhaps I can pick your brains please.

I have a nice mare, only 15 hands, built like a proper hunter but on short legs!  Moves very well but has done nothing yet; would think she'd make a cracking cross country machine.
She's by Old Leighlin (Laughtons Flight x Pallas Choice who was by Leabeg) out of a Connemara JC jumping machine, breeding unknown to me.
I'd just like to know which way you Irish people would jump with her bearing in mind, I would only go Irish or TB, no warmbloods need apply.  Would you go back to a Connemara or an ISH, or to a full ID or TB?  My aim is a decent looking bread and butter with ability to turn its hand decently to anything.
I haven't a decent pic so this video is of her first day here (don't look at the state of the feet, badly needed trimming!)







Click to expand...

Now she is one seriously nice mare. Love her presence and breeding. As I'm sure you know, you have the KOD going all the way back to the great Laughton on the Draught side and Highland Flight, Highland King' sire. He in turn was the sire of McKinlaigh and Ballincoola.

Leabeg was one of my favourite, favourite sires of Philips, up there with Farhaan, (a Shirley Heights son that never got a real opportunity beside his hotshot companions but still produced Carl Edward's Moneymore, a Foxhunter champion). Clover was #1. 

Apart from being the most elegant, quality horse in the flesh, (his progeny were very popular with American buyers in the 80s as he produced very quality types), his pedigree had vintage Irish lines that were very popular in the 1970/80s. His sire, Frenchwood, produced some very good commercial jumpers back then - qualify them for Dublin? sold in an instant. He went back to Teddy, an Ajax x Bay Ronald cross, and one of the best foundation sires, always good to see Teddy in a pedigree and widespread in eventing pedigrees.

Leabeg's damsire, Middle Temple, is one of my top all-time TB favourites. My first broodie was out of a Middle Temple dam and had the same good temperament; bred only four foals, all by Clover Hill, which included one sold to the late Graziano Mancinelli; another sold to the Middle East (long story!) and the dam of Rich Fellers' Grand Prix horse, Shannondale Dot Com. Her fourth? was bought by Ned Byrne, broken and brought hunting his first winter; spotted by a wealthy businessman - ergo, lived the proverbial life of Riley as a consummate cross-country machine and possibly led the happiest life of the lot! 

Middle Temple also sired Michael Whitaker's Clonee Temple, winner of a Dortmund World Cup qualifier and a good Grand Prix mare; he also features as the damsire of Temple Clover, who himself is proving a good broodmare sire.

Middle Temple's sire, Supreme Court, was beautifully-bred. By Precipitation out of a Fair Trial dam, both sires crop up in the many showjumping & eventing pedigrees. One example of the latter - another Fair Trial son, Court Martial, is the damsire of Lord Gayle, a noted NH sire. His son's included Strong Gale, sire of Badminton winner Moonfleet, and Aristocracy, the damsire of Call Again Cavalier. 

Leabeg is also the damsire of Sarah Cohen's ride, Irish Jester, third in the OI at Burnham Market this week and a previous PAVO 4yo champion.

I would not go ISH or probably ID either. Sport horse sires like warmbloods can be a 'lucky dip' genetics wise and she has a good mixture already. A very athletic ID maybe but it would have a TB lurking in the shadows - I would go this route only if you wanted more height and substance? A good TB sire would bring pure quality to the table but where to find? I'm not as familiar with the UK-based TBs so someone else might advise.

If height isn't an issue, I'd be very tempted by a Connie. Not a showring poser, a real 'been there, done that, worn the muddy x-country bib' type. Just my thoughts.


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## SJFAN (4 April 2010)

One small correction: Clonee Temple was ridden by John not Michael.  Very talented mare, but she hated water jumps, and so was mostly jumped indoors. She also disliked walls with holes in them!


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## watertray53 (4 April 2010)

MFH9

Perhaps if you were to use Templebready Fear Bui you would get a 15 hd WHP a type that is in much demand. 
When proven, a 15 hd worker can cost a fortune to buy..... WHP's that have qualified or been to HOYS cost in excess of £15k! A youngster with potential ( that would measure in) would cost in the region of £6k.

Go for it!


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## Irishlife (4 April 2010)

MFH9 said:



			Laughtons Flight (Very nice have a good bit of this breeding)/QUOTE]

She is a charming little mare and very workmanlike in her outlook. Girl child said immediately Thoroughbred and I agree. The bloodlines as so eloquently described by Hilly along with the tough and handy Connemara blood with another cross of blood would give you a consummate cross country horse and quite likely a decent show hunter.  Would go for a chaser type TB but sadly not much knowledge of what is available to UK breeders.

Hilly - I am totally relating to satelite radar ears as one of my mares passes on these to her babies. Dun - no better colour a favourite of mine. Used to ride a dun connie called Justin who was actually spicy hot to ride but what a pony me oh my!!!!
		
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## Maesfen (4 April 2010)

hilly said:



			Now she is one seriously nice mare. Love her presence and breeding. As I'm sure you know, you have the KOD going all the way back to the great Laughton on the Draught side and Highland Flight, Highland King' sire. He in turn was the sire of McKinlaigh and Ballincoola.

I would not go ISH or probably ID either. Sport horse sires like warmbloods can be a 'lucky dip' genetics wise and she has a good mixture already. A very athletic ID maybe but it would have a TB lurking in the shadows - I would go this route only if you wanted more height and substance? A good TB sire would bring pure quality to the table but where to find? I'm not as familiar with the UK-based TBs so someone else might advise.

If height isn't an issue, I'd be very tempted by a Connie. Not a showring poser, a real 'been there, done that, worn the muddy x-country bib' type. Just my thoughts. 

Click to expand...

Thank you very much; I take that as high praise.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if she does not throw bigger at all, even if put to a Connie, her younger full brother is 15.3 now and still growing so the genes are there somewhere, lol.

Now to get on the hunt for the TBs (do have one in mind) or Connie's (haven't a clue as yet!) of choice!  Many thanks for your ideas, very grateful - but that's not to say I don't want any other suggestions now to go into the melting pot from anyone else!

I have loved this thread.


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## angrovestud (4 April 2010)

MFH9
Thought you might like this boy very old bloodlines and be Nice with your girl.


http://www.stallionsonline.co.uk/stallion_31097.html


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## Maesfen (4 April 2010)

Thanks for that link, I'll save it.  He looks a nice sort although possibly a bit big for her as a maiden.  I do like the Cruise Missile slant and funny enough, if he had still been alive, Honeybrook Siren would have been on my list; in fact his son, Siren's Missile (?) might fit the bill although he's finer.  Scallywag was a giant of a horse, he stood locally so have seen a few of his stock and they all seemed big, no matter what they were out of!


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## hilly (4 April 2010)

John-Michael-Michael-John .. yes, firmly embedded though typing against the clock to get Sunday lunch underway was a hindrance. Another Ping! lunch, especially on Easter Sunday, would have led to mutiny.

Now, unless I really need to increase the Omega 3 dose, Clonee Temple was a chestnut mare? The Middle Temple dam *coughs .. bay* of my first horse was a dream cross-country, as brave and honest as they came and such power on take-off. She also bred a Dublin Grade E champion, sold there to an Italian buyer for a fantastic price, and three more GradeA/Bs .. again, that family has all but disappeared.

Actually, I think Clonee Temple was out of a part-Clyde as well. 

WHPs are in huge demand; apart from Dessie, another feet-on-the-ground customer has offered 10k straight-up for the proposed Connie out of my Clover Hill mare for his daughter. I'm so wary after her recent doldrums that I wouldn't consider it but I may not get even half that sum for a foal out of her by a fashionable warmblood sire!  Irish breeding is just upside-down at the moment. Anyhow, moot offer as, if it ever happens, mini-Ears would not be for sale. 

Another thought that sprung to mind afterwards MFH, is I would not choose too-big a sire. Your mare is 15 hands but there are some very big, as in both tall and build, sires in her family tree and her foal could throwback to those. Not ideal for a maiden mare foaling. Many of the Draught mare owners cover their maiden mares with TBs for an easier first-time foaling. A small TB would be fine. If she was 16 hands, I'd suggest Jumbo!

Irishlife, I bet a Baileys truffle Easter egg that there are few bigger pairs of ears in the county than this. Or a bigger character. This was her last year before she went to visit Swatch: 







And this is the elegant little mare that's going to produce our grey Rebel SH/WHP, you've already seen her strapping daughter in the foal pics.









Now .. I'm going into hiding from other ChestnutMareOwners..


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## Simsar (4 April 2010)

Pat its me Sarah not Simon, I'd go for the elusive tall TB on her.  Or maybe Spyder!!!!!! LOL sorry but he would like her. xxx


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## Maesfen (5 April 2010)

Simsar said:



			Pat its me Sarah not Simon, I'd go for the elusive tall TB on her.  Or maybe Spyder!!!!!! LOL sorry but he would like her. xxx
		
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  Funny enough, I have already looked at him this afternoon and did a bit of drooling; I think you might be right!  Shame you're so far away.


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## Eothain (5 April 2010)

Ok, so to further my earlier point about the Grand Prix in Barnadown, 5 Irish-bred horses got in to the top 6. Wow! Amazing! No one would be surprised to learn that the winner was sired by Cruising. The 2nd placed horse was by Cavalier. Third placed horse was by Aldatus, fourth was by Cruising, fifth by Harlequin Du Carel and 6th placed went to a foreign horse. So what does that tell us about our horses? Only the top 3 jumped double clear in a 13 horse jump off. It seems Cruising has done it again. I think it's safe to say that if God were a horse, his name would be Cruising!

Tomorrow, Easter Monday, the Grand Prix tour moves to Warrington in Co. Kilkenny. 66 horse/rider combinations are entered in the class. Let's dissect shall we?

39 of those horses are Irish bred. Which is over 50%. Super! Thoroughbred sires account for 3 of those horses. Cruising only has 2 in it tomorrow and two sons of his, Cruise On and Lough Cruise also have one horse each representing them. Clover Brigade has 3 in it. Touchdown has 1 in it, as has Puissance, Western Promise, Coevers Diamond Boy, Laughtons Flight, Furisto Dan, Clover Fields and High Roller. Glidawn Diamond, RID legend has 2 and his son Coolcorron Cool Diamond has one. Three have no breeding recorded. So 15 of the 39 ISH horses jumping in tomorrow's Grand Prix are by foreign stallions! 2 of the above ISH stallions, Touchdown and Furisto Dan are by foreign horses; Galoubet and Furisto.

So what does that tell us about the state of Irish breeding? For me, the writing is on the wall. We can talk all we want about the past and the characters and the legends of breeders that have gone before us but for the here and now, to breed showjumpers it is blatently obvious that we need infusions of the best the continental studbooks have to offer.

It was mentioned earlier about Ireland being a dumping ground for poor foreign stallions and older foreign stallions. Why do the veterans get sent here? Well, I think it's because they have graced the Continental studbooks with quality stallion sons. Take Lux Z for example. He gave the Dutch, Lupicor. Whom from what I ave heard is better than Lux. So why would they bother use Lux when Lupicor is better? Answer, send Lux to Ireland. He'll do a job for the Irish.

I think there's general goodwill from the Europeans towards breeding in Ireland in general. I think they want us to be competitive with them. So after spending plenty of years covering mares on the Continent, the horses finish up in the dumping ground, Ireland. Lux Z is one example. Iroko (Keur) is another example, he's spent a couple of seasons in various different studs around the world and sired Grand Prix horses wherever he went. His Irish stock aren't old enough to jump G.P yet but he has had horses represent us. Darragh Kerins' Nabucco for instance. Then there's the recently dumped Lancelot. Ever hear of him? You may have heard of a chap by the name of Geoff Billington, well he rides a rather talented horse called Rosinus, who happens to be by the afforementioned Lancelot. So if anybody tries to tell me that we have a poor or second rate selection of foreign stallions to choose from in Ireland, do yourselves a favour and tell it to a wall. You have more chance of getting one of those to listen. Mermus R? Guidam? ... Second rate? ... Really?

The biggest crime is that the best of the ISH stallions are over 20 and only Cruising and Touchdown have sons approved. Coevers Diamond Boy has an approved son but I've never seen or heard of anything by it. So surely the horse who sired Team Silver medallist at the 2002 WEG and a 2005 Spruce Meadows Derby winner, Richmond Park should have a better son or 5 for us to use.

I'd nearly beg all the Irish reading this to go out and buy colts by these horses while their still alive so that we don't lose them forever. Like it or not, stallions have more effect on general breeding than mares do so while we need super daughters of them, we also need super-er sons.

The Spring Grand Prix league stands at 1.35m. I look forward to going through the startlists for the Premier Series when it kicks off at the end of the month and see how many traditional ISH horses compete in that when those fences hit 1.50m!

I don't like _having_ to use foreign stallions but in order to breed showjumpers, not eventers, not happy hacking-bread and butter-riding club extraordinaires, I can't see how I can use anything else. Yes, I could use the Cruising sons and Touchdown's son Cara Touche but they're still quite young so when my fillies by the foreigners hit covering age, I'll be pretty confident that I'll have better mares with which to make better use of these horses. Then I won't be sat at a computer in a few years time lamenting at how Cruisings MF is 22 and has no good stallion sons. I may be biased, and while no one has said it thus far, I don't think I'm taking a bad course of action to achieve my goals.

Hilly, Irish Life, were either of you at the IHB agm last year?


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## Irishlife (5 April 2010)

Hi Eothain

I didn't go to the AGM last year but was there in 2008. 

 I also scan the Grand Prix start lists looking for patterns and stats and it does make for pretty shocking reading. I will be interested to see where the Irish blood starts tailing off on the other hand, how many in our pool of riders are capable of producing to 1.50m and riding a balanced technical round?. I suspect even Womanizer (and I do like that horse) would start kicking poles out with his way of going. He seems quite fussy in the mouth and a bit too strong which is fine with his scope over 1.35 but once the poles go up???

I do think this brave new world of show jumpers  is not just about breeding the right stuff it has a push through effect into how we performance test them, how we produce them and when we produce them.

There are so many variables outside of the breeding, if we have the show jumping horses we hope for coming on stream; will we have the right type of production and competitions available?. With the increased costs of production of a foal, we are unlikely to be testing these expensive creatures out in lunging contests over a rusty pole, so do we need futurity and performance type tests and grading which clearly, the IHB wont be doing any time soon. Does this mean we should cut over to the Irish Warm blood book ? 

Are we not at risk of a wave of erratically bred warm bloods flooding the marketplace once The Farmers Journal starts saying foreign is the way to go.?? 

We are not in the position funding wise to play the numbers game like the large breeding stations on the continent, we are a nation of individual breeders.  Clearly somewhere like Shockemoles end up with a lot of bread and butter warm bloods once the cream rises to the top, but such is their marketing and promotion of their horses, there are millions of dressage crazy people out there to buy the excess horses to go swanning around in bling browbands.  It is highly unlikely many Irish bread and butter warm bloods will be swanning anywhere if they dont make the cut.

So rambling in the wee small hours again, when all I really mean is I think in the longer term it is not just about the breeding, there has to be a structure for this and production and performance tests appropriate for the type. 

At the end of the day it will be a long road and I look forward to seeing your plans unfolding. I have a yearling filly who I will be showing this year who fits the "Irish warmblood" mould  - Galoubet, Furisto but also Laughton's Flight KOD in small doses - lets see how she gets on in the ring.


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## Irishlife (5 April 2010)

Hilly

I raise you one bottle of Baileys to go with the Baileys truffle Easter Egg you owe me 













This is Laughton Olympia, a Cleveland Bay mare I had many years ago who had lovely foals when crossed with TBs.

These are ears!! Current satellite/radar ears mare not so impressive But still huge!!


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## Tharg (5 April 2010)

Those are some ears!

  Are there many Cleveland Bays in Ireland?


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## Simsar (5 April 2010)

Eothain said:



			Tomorrow, Easter Monday, the Grand Prix tour moves to Warrington in Co. Kilkenny. 66 horse/rider combinations are entered in the class. Let's dissect shall we?

39 of those horses are Irish bred. Which is over 50%. Super! Thoroughbred sires account for 3 of those horses. Cruising only has 2 in it tomorrow and two sons of his, Cruise On and Lough Cruise also have one horse each representing them. Clover Brigade has 3 in it. Touchdown has 1 in it, as has Puissance, Western Promise, Coevers Diamond Boy, Laughtons Flight, Furisto Dan, Clover Fields and High Roller. Glidawn Diamond, RID legend has 2 and his son Coolcorron Cool Diamond has one. Three have no breeding recorded. So 15 of the 39 ISH horses jumping in tomorrow's Grand Prix are by foreign stallions! 2 of the above ISH stallions, Touchdown and Furisto Dan are by foreign horses; Galoubet and Furisto.

So what does that tell us about the state of Irish breeding? For me, the writing is on the wall. We can talk all we want about the past and the characters and the legends of breeders that have gone before us but for the here and now, to breed showjumpers it is blatently obvious that we need infusions of the best the continental studbooks have to offer.
		
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Eothain if you add up the above you get:

19 ISH 
17 ISH with Warmblood including the Touchdown's and Furisto Dan's
and 3 No breeding recorded

For me the writing certainly is on the wall too, ISH can still cut the mustard in showjumping if breeders would stop *choosing* to jump ship!


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## Simsar (5 April 2010)

MFH9 said:



  Funny enough, I have already looked at him this afternoon and did a bit of drooling; I think you might be right!  Shame you're so far away.
		
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Drool away! x Never mind had to slip it in so to speak. x


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## Irishlife (5 April 2010)

Tharg said:



			Those are some ears!

  Are there many Cleveland Bays in Ireland?
		
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This mare was from when I was breeding horses in the UK. I am sure there are one or two Clevelands in Ireland but I don't know where! Yes she had some ears


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## Simsar (5 April 2010)

So can we have a sticky post??  I can't believe we slipped to page two!!


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## Irishlife (5 April 2010)

Had a fab day at the local stallion parade with a lot of not so local horses making appearances.

For Simsar (and everyone)

ID wise, I was taken with Clew Bay Bouncer, a very neat, purposeful young stallion, he is very correct and modern yet somehow remains a traditional stamp (similar to Young Carrabawn). Drumindoo Stud

Rockrimmon Silver Diamond - The horse bequeathed to the Irish Horse Board now standing at Claremorris EC for the next 2 years.  Very traditional, big and powerful.

Mountain Pearl an interesting one as he is a complete outcross with none of the usual suspects in his pedigree. However, although a beautiful animal , he has incredibly light bone which looked odd.

Apart from a couple of other young stallions by Welcome Flagmount that were a similar stamp to Clew Bay Bouncer, the rest were a mixed bag. I think Welcome Flagmount sons may perk things up a bit, they are all very good looking and seem to have his jump (He was Grade A, Grand Prix, went to Lanaken ). ONe is Rebel Flagmount and theother Welcome Emperor.

Eothain (and everyone)

Saw Eothains  beloved Luidam and also Omar (x Darco) his stable mate. Luidam is a bit of a corker but thought Omar was a wee bit small. Cruise On may have been there but I missed him. Another cruising son Bahrain Cruise was on parade too. He actually has grown on me from when I first knew him. He is a hot tricky sort to handle and a real piece of work in the stable apparently. He was on fire on his two hind legs in the ring today as well but he has done beter than a lot to get some good jumping horses out there. Galloway was really looking well but I am biased as I have used him and thrilled with the resulting offspring. Gallant Cavalier, very elegant little horse but too blood for a lot of mares (although I think you can never have too much!), He came down from the north to friends nearby after an eventing career and he had a good book of mares last year and they have him spot on for this year.

So they were my eye catchers of the day and I am looking forward to Cavan
on Thursday.

This might bump us back up a bit - how do we get a sticky anyway?


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## Eothain (6 April 2010)

I doubt we'll get a sticky somehow. Half asleep here so will keep this quick and post another essay tomorrow! Mountain Pearl is the dam sire of Drumiller Lough who finished 2nd with Capt David O Brien in the 6 Year Old World Championship finals in Lanaken in 2009. If he is light of bone but is featuring in the pedigree of such a horse, albeit Drummiler Lough is by Heartbreaker, maybe he is the Draught type of the future!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for Luidam, yes he is beloved. I'll never forget biting my fingers in August 2004 as he cleared the last to clinch the Aga Khan for us! He stands about 15 minutes away from me now!

Womanizer has already competed at 1.50m. The big Cavan 6/7 year old class every September finishes up that height. I'm nearly positive Womanizer jumped a triple clear. Olive Clarke won it on a real future star, the O.B.O.S Quality 004 gelding Mark Q. What a fabulous horse. He jumps like a gazelle. Hopefully Womanizer can go to that height again and again. He has all the scope and power he needs, and Olive is one of the best riders in the country. If anyone will get the best out of him, she will!

As for better young horse producers, the country needs a ship load of them! Seeing the Grand Prix in Warrington really drove home that point.

And Simsar, it seems I added wrong. How embarrasing! By the way, I'm not choosing to jump ship. I'm just doing what _needs_ to be done!!!


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## Maesfen (6 April 2010)

Simsar said:



			So can we have a sticky post??  I can't believe we slipped to page two!!
		
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Well, I've just asked, very nicely I might add, in the Suggestions bit so can only wait and see.
I can't think of any other threads with this amount of support, that have been so pleasant and informative; that alone should warrant inclusion to the Sticky Throne.


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## firm (6 April 2010)

Thanks IL for the stallion parade report - loved reading it


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## Irishlife (6 April 2010)

firm said:



			Thanks IL for the stallion parade report - loved reading it 

Click to expand...

Firm,

I loved looking at your website and covet all of your spotted babies. You have some great bloodlines there and your Knabstruppers are fabulous, I have always loved them though know little about them. 

There was a little section in the stallion parade for odds and sods and there was heavy cob who was a spotted creamy roany colour most unusual if this link works, he is advertised for stud on donedeal.ie, he was a cracking little chap.

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/horses/1238397


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## hilly (6 April 2010)

Irishlife said:



			Hilly

I raise you one bottle of Baileys to go with the Baileys truffle Easter Egg you owe me 













This is Laughton Olympia, a Cleveland Bay mare I had many years ago who had lovely foals when crossed with TBs.

These are ears!! Current satellite/radar ears mare not so impressive But still huge!!
		
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Oh. 

*glances at empty Bailey's Easter Egg box*

I could offer you a garden variety (still wrapped) Wispa one as an alternative but firstly, just calculate length x width of Cleveland Bay's lugs to determine surface area. Calculation by submitted photo is fine. If it exceeds 2.43 hectares (as per Clover monster's pair),  I shall accede.

No time for 'essays' today, alas, too much work to do and NOW the sun is shining after another wretched gale last night.


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## Irishlife (6 April 2010)

MFH9 said:



			Well, I've just asked, very nicely I might add, in the Suggestions bit so can only wait and see.
I can't think of any other threads with this amount of support, that have been so pleasant and informative; that alone should warrant inclusion to the Sticky Throne.
		
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Thanks MFH

At some stage I need to print this out as it really is worth preserving.


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## Irishlife (6 April 2010)

hilly said:



			Oh. 

*glances at empty Bailey's Easter Egg box*

I could offer you a garden variety (still wrapped) Wispa one as an alternative but firstly, just calculate length x width of Cleveland Bay's lugs to determine surface area. Calculation by submitted photo is fine. If it exceeds 2.43 hectares (as per Clover monster's pair),  I shall accede.

No time for 'essays' today, alas, too much work to do and NOW the sun is shining after another wretched gale last night.
		
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Sadly poor Olympia has been deceased for some time so as I am unable to calculate surface area of ears so I will concede and accept the Wispa bar egg though consider it to be a mere fob off compared to Baileys and will share podium place with you albeit with one foot on second place due to using deceased mare as entry in "Noteworthy Ears Grand Prix"


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## hilly (6 April 2010)

Irishlife said:



			Sadly poor Olympia has been deceased for some time so as I am unable to calculate surface area of ears so I will concede and accept the Wispa bar egg though consider it to be a mere fob off compared to Baileys and will share podium place with you albeit with one foot on second place due to using deceased mare as entry in "Noteworthy Ears Grand Prix" 

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I gathered she had gone to the Paddock upstairs so will accept measurements taken by ruler against computer screen. ;-) Funnily enough, when our King's Master mare went for foaling last year, the first question from the English lassy working there was 'Has she Cleveland Bay blood?' Who knows? Anything is possible in the unrecorded sixth generation backwards and Cleveland Bays were very popular exports to the Continent and Ireland in the late nineteenth/early twentieth century.

Actually, just thought of another Noteworthy Ears candidate but will start another thread so as not to detract from the 'seriousness' of this one...


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## Irishlife (6 April 2010)

hilly said:



			I gathered she had gone to the Paddock upstairs so will accept measurements taken by ruler against computer screen. ;-) Funnily enough, when our King's Master mare went for foaling last year, the first question from the English lassy working there was 'Has she Cleveland Bay blood?' Who knows? Anything is possible in the unrecorded sixth generation backwards and Cleveland Bays were very popular exports to the Continent and Ireland in the late nineteenth/early twentieth century.

Actually, just thought of another Noteworthy Ears candidate but will start another thread so as not to detract from the 'seriousness' of this one...
		
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What is completely amazing is I was idly looking to see if the stud where Olympia was bred was still going strong and came across a facebook group about Clevelands and somebody in Norway was asking after Laughton Olympia as she used to be her groom back in the day. So I was able to tell her I had her since a 4 year old until she died and sent her some pics. Crazy small world. Anyway rather hijacking our serious breeders post with coffee shopping so off to tease a couple of mares.


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## Maesfen (6 April 2010)

Irishlife said:



			Thanks MFH

At some stage I need to print this out as it really is worth preserving.
		
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Be warned, I've just done it and it takes reams of paper!


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## Simsar (6 April 2010)

Ive asked for a sticky, they are checking through and will let us know.


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## Alec Swan (6 April 2010)

MFH9,

if you're that keen on a sticky,  why not start a fresh thread,  with a sheet which we can all add our names to,  and then it can be offered up to our hosts,  by way of a survey?!  

I'd certainly sign up for it.  There's been a degree of drivel,  mostly mine,  which could be edited.  The salient points are none-the-less,  fascinating,  informative and if only for me,  a serious learning curve.

DO IT!!

Alec.


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## Maesfen (6 April 2010)

Alec, I've already posted asking for this to become a sticky in the Suggestions forum, I would feel a bit pushy doing a seperate thread/poll about it but if anyone else wants to, I hope they do and I'll sign up definitely.  It seems Simsar has had a word too if you take a looksee above your post.


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## Eothain (7 April 2010)

Well this has gotten horribly off topic! What's with all the photos of the ears?


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## Alec Swan (7 April 2010)

Eothain said:



			Well this has gotten horribly off topic! What's with all the photos of the ears?
		
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Eothain,  "all the better to listen with",  so I'm constantly advised!

Alec.


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## Simsar (7 April 2010)

Ok no more ears lets get back on topic GO!


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## GrassHorse (7 April 2010)

Often I hear people say "all the good mares were sold out of Ireland". I dissagree with this. I think we still have plenty good mares here. I will tell you a sad story first. Cruising has family, they are all in sweden. The have all been crossed to warmbloods. There are about 20 horses in Sweden related to Cruising on his dam side. Right Idea is a full sister to Cruisings grand dam Big Idea. Right Idea and her sisters went to sweden years ago and they a have now started a very good family of swedish sporthorses. Ballymena Park is another mare that should never have left Ireland. I sure everyone knows of other mares that have gone abroad and left nothing behind.
To Eothain, Ryanair are doing good deals to Sweden at the moment!

Getting back to the mares we have. There are still some very good mares in Ireland. I estimate there are 10 to 15 mare families in Irealand that are of international standard. Carrigbrahan Lady line, Kilkenny Lady line, Trixie Lady line, Roadstown Gold line etc..The problem is, they are been crossed with Warmbloods. Im not totally against this, I just think it's sad. I think Horse Sport Ireland needs to subsidize breeders, who have internationally related mares, to breed one fully Irish filly.
If anyone has other stories of Irish mares that have gone abroad and have started studbooks, I would like to hear them.


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## Maesfen (7 April 2010)

Humbug and lots more humbug!  

Admin won't sticky this at all.................it doesn't meet the criteria............

humbughumbughumbughumbughumbug


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## Simsar (7 April 2010)

Hey ho keep printing, just got the mail! or perhaps copy and paste??


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## Maesfen (7 April 2010)

I wish I had C & P'd into a Word doc', then I could have used smaller fonts and not used half as many pages.  Live and learn, live and learn, lol!


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## firm (7 April 2010)

Hi IL thank you for the lovely words about my horses  & the Knabs.  I hope to breed one of the TB mares to an Irish only jumping stallion if she obliges, so loving the info on this thread.  
That spotty boy in Ireland is very cute as well   I might have to try & breed a spotty ISH. 

I love my Danish Knabs and am very happy to say one of my mares has an Irish mare in there  Heehee close your ears Knab purists!  Fifth generation  a mare called Slieve Dart presumably exported to Denmark way back then and she was by Hail Titan xx and a mare Blackwater Rose by Blackwater Lad. That mare line produced a very decent jumping Knab mare who jumped with a young rider in Denmark  which of course must be due to the Irish bloodlines!!    Kind of links in with what Grasshorse was saying, those Irish mares get everywhere


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## Irishlife (7 April 2010)

firm said:



			I love my Danish Knabs and am very happy to say one of my mares has an Irish mare in there  Heehee close your ears Knab purists!  Fifth generation  a mare called Slieve Dart presumably exported to Denmark way back then and she was by Hail Titan xx and a mare Blackwater Rose by Blackwater Lad. That mare line produced a very decent jumping Knab mare who jumped with a young rider in Denmark  which of course must be due to the Irish bloodlines!!    Kind of links in with what Grasshorse was saying, those Irish mares get everywhere 

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Well, Hilly will sort me out if I am wrong but I believe Hail Titan was the sire of David Broome's Lannegan who won an Olympic medal in Stockholm. So no surprises there. David rode Irish all the way back then.

There was a lot of exporting of mares going on and when I was UK based, I was offered 10K for my good Irish mare to go to Belgium as a brood mare. Serious money in 1989. I declined the offer and the mare who was the love of my life died at 25 three or four years ago in the back garden of old age. She was a typical Irish horse that went to Britain without any recorded breeding sadly but what a mare.

I will go on the waiting list for a perfectly blanket spotted ISH please.


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## GrassHorse (7 April 2010)

When Jay Bowe had a mare at the RDS in 1994. A Dutch guy offered him 20k to buy her. Jay said " all the money in Holland wouldn't buy this mare". Jay reckons they're the one's you need to hold onto. 

You did the right thing by not selling her!


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## hilly (7 April 2010)

Irishlife said:



			Well, Hilly will sort me out if I am wrong but I believe Hail Titan was the sire of David Broome's Lannegan who won an Olympic medal in Stockholm. So no surprises there. David rode Irish all the way back then.
		
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He was indeed although Lannegan was his only claim to fame so there has been some conjecture. There was a veritable gold vein of TB stallions in Mayo - Final Problem (Lannegan's damsire), Stone Fox, Station Master and Seana Sgeal which was by Arkle's sire, Archive and produced the most wonderful half-bred mares. 

I think it may have been the World Equestrian Games though?  David has been an ambassador for Irish-breds for decades but the Stockholm Olympics may have been just before his and Lannegan's time.


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## hilly (7 April 2010)

GrassHorse said:



			When Jay Bowe had a mare at the RDS in 1994. A Dutch guy offered him 20k to buy her. Jay said " all the money in Holland wouldn't buy this mare". Jay reckons they're the one's you need to hold onto. 

You did the right thing by not selling her!
		
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Alas, not all owners were, or could be, as far-seeing as Jay. He's another legend and gifted at handling stallions and youngstock.  His patience paid off because he's got great eventing lines built up in his mare herd and must be the only stallion owner with four progeny by three of his stallions in this year's Badminton entries?


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## hilly (7 April 2010)

MFH9 said:



			I wish I had C & P'd into a Word doc', then I could have used smaller fonts and not used half as many pages.  Live and learn, live and learn, lol!
		
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Just as with horse-breeding! 
I was also going to suggest just cut n'pasting what you needed into a Word doc.

Matters not a whit about whether the post remains a sticky or not, those that got something from it already have.


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## GrassHorse (7 April 2010)

hilly said:



			Alas, not all owners were, or could be, as far-seeing as Jay. He's another legend and gifted at handling stallions and youngstock.  His patience paid off because he's got great eventing lines built up in his mare herd and must be the only stallion owner with four progeny by three of his stallions in this year's Badminton entries?
		
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Yeah, you would have to admire Jay. He has some great mares. Irish mares that are some of the best eventing broodmares in the world!


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## hilly (7 April 2010)

Eothain said:



			Well this has gotten horribly off topic! What's with all the photos of the ears?
		
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a1b2c3 said:



			Eothain,  "all the better to listen with",  so I'm constantly advised!

Alec.
		
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Alec - a man that listens. Excellent. 

Eothain, there was a reason for building the towers guarding the  Shannon at strategic points -   to keep out the  Offaly  sense of humour.  There are many worse things that can happen than  pet subjects going horribly off topic and photos of big ears have illustrated there are lots of hints to Irish horses ancestry for those interested in that topic, including the  proud owners of such well-endowed creatures. And if the continuing appeal of this thread is sharing thoughts and first-hand experiences with other breeders, even from those dreaded decades ago, you shall have to bear with the meanderings and diversions with good grace. 

One of the best conversations  I never had was with a famous warmblood breeder; the usual polite stock responses until a very mischievous sense of humour took over. I didnt get enough material for an article as pleas for anything other than off -the-record libellous material were met with a big grin, What do I know? I breed a handful of freaks for a handful of riders that can manage them and the not-so-good are sold as dreams to amateurs. Keep your bank manager happy because horses are risky business and enjoy your good fortune while it lasts. It could end tomorrow but you keep smiling and then you start another business. 

More cryptic than an episode of Lost but I like these breeders with a GSOH who keep their feet firmly on the ground and know, despite all the scientific whittling, dissections and endless analysis in the world, that horse-breeding is a very  fickle industry.  

Everything starts at the beginning so having quickly re-scanned through the earlier posts - Orestus is standing in Ireland now; there is also good news about another stallion  in the pipeline, have the Rescue Remedy on standby, Eothain. 

The earlier posts about certain Irish Draught stallions have already dealt with but having seen that another stallion recommendations post has been removed, (unless I need to go to Specsavers as well as up the Omega 3 dose? ) the wisest  policy is unless you have something worthwhile/constructive to say about a stallion, best to say nothing in public or name names. 

Virtual world is a small one, word spreads quickly and you can insult a stallion owner about anything else, including his wife (OH/husband/partner etc) but not his or her stallion (s).

Which brings me to Cavalier!  Being constructive, he brought jump into the equation; his progeny were very sound and he brought good feet to the mix as some Irish mares feet, due to a variety of ancestors, were prone to ailments that showed up on progenys on x-rays. Being diplomatic, he could have had a better hindleg/hocks, but  it worked out with Irish mares powerful quarters/hindlegs. He had lots of blood and nicked very well with the Irish mare and landed on his sound feet with the Hughes mare herd to set him on his career. 

Produced some very good jumpers at 1.50m GP level - who wouldnt want to breed those? Possibly his best SJ performer was Chippison, best of the Irish team at the Aachen WEG - however, his eventing progeny, including Ben Along Time, went all the way to winning a World Cup Eventing final and several Olympic horses, including Ben and Mary Kings Call Again Cavalier.

Has he proved as good a sire of sires as the other two Cs - Clover Hill or Cruising?  Not  quite yet. His deceased son, High Roller, is proving a useful eventing sire; Chippisons progeny are just coming out under saddle so time there yet.

Cavalier excluded, the  majority of early warm blood cast-offs standing here were no advertisement. Their conformation, either old-fashioned heavy types, or swan-necked-lop-eared-tubular-bodied-sickle-hocked-boxy feet were an affront to the eye. But his sire is by XYZ. As useful as saying a horse is Cavalier x Cruising x Clover Hill. Fantastic on paper but competition sires either have to prove it themselves or through their progeny.

Clover - ah, what a horse. I would post pictures but that may induce more protests.  So youll just have to settle for a virtual picture of a brown overgrown Welsh Cob with massive .. can I say the e-word? Ears.  His looks belied his pedigree as his male tail line included Precipitation and Arctic Star, which linked him to another good sire of the 1980s - Artic Que, sire of the Army Equitation school stalwart, Glendalough.  At the height of  Glendaloughs career, his sire stood for £1,000 - Clover remained at a token £30, having started at £10.  Profitable days.

My own personal thought is Clover is proving a better sire  of sires because of his TB sire; you can be more sure of results with a close pure ancestor or else, as with cross-breds, having to resort to in/linebreeding.  The majority of his progeny also have/had lovely temperaments. Just yesterday, got an email from a trainer whose client, a busy  businessman, had a couple of great outings with his Clover Hill horse; only at 1.30m but horse patiently carried his amateur owner round while winking at the trainer each time he passed by.  You cant buy testimonials like that about the good nature of the Irish  horse.

It reminded of my first summer spent in a busy  American yard - best of times.  Abdullah and Mill Pearl literally lived up the road, Gem Twist, one of my all-time favourite show jumpers, was at the top of his game so regularly saw him in action. There was one flashy European-bred in my row; naturally, his Wall Street owner would have to micro-manage time to get out from the city to ride him so duly tipped-off,  Buckaroo  had to be double-lunged and ridden for 2 hours before her arrival. Hes soooo good! - neddy & I looked at one another, one more weary than the other. When I did question these tactics, barn owner shrugged Shes happy, she pays the bills - we all get paid, thats business.  

Not all Clovers progeny were beginners ponies - there are few easy animals capable of competing at 1.50/1.60m level for years but when theyre wound down, the typical Clover Hill is  amongst the most placid you can find. And his daughters are welcomed at studs whereas other hot-headed progeny are not exactly met with a party or much enthusiasm. 

Carling King went all the way to the Olympics; best Irish individual result ever, (4th at Athens); also won the King George V Cup, (as did Dublin Grand Prix winner, Ballaseyr Twilight while the Clover Hill mare, Flo Jo won the Queen Elizabeth Cup twice).  CK clinched Irelands qualification for Athens with his performance at the European Championships at Donaueschingen  and was part of the historic Irish gold medal team at the previous Europeans at Arnhem in 2001. Amazing horse but also an amazing team horse who could have stayed on the lucrative US Grand Prix circuit instead of transatlantic shuttles every couple of weeks at the height of his career.

Like Cavalier and Cruising, Clover  will feature in eventing pedigrees, though more removed - his grand-son, Tankers Town (s. Diamond Clover) competed at Hong Kong as did another grand-son, Fernhill Clover Mist (Kiltealy Spring x Clover Hill) so I expect to see that influence continuing.

We have seen the last of his progeny though. Please note: Clover Hill died in 1997. His last foals are now *12*. Nothing provokes an attack of Keyboard Crib-biting quicker than seeing a  Clover Hill 5yo advertised online in H&H. Not possible. Grand-son, yes. The funny - and we all need a sense of humour breeding horses - fact about Clovers stud career is his best progeny came from his earliest mares; as the quality and performance mares increasingly went to him not as many. 

For me, the salient lesson from last weekends Grand Prix starter list is not the ingredients list of the Irish-breds but the fact that the other half were sourced abroad.  What is that telling us? That its easier and fashionable to go to Europe where there is an ample supply of such horses?

The ingredients list of the Hong Kong Olympics show jumpers next. And lots more, such as the production of young horses. But now mindful of the Warmblood Gurus advice about keeping bank managers happy, it will have to wait.


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## GrassHorse (7 April 2010)

What was the name of the Dam of Lannegan?


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## GinnieRedwings (7 April 2010)

Irishlife said:



			I will go on the waiting list for a perfectly blanket spotted ISH please.

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Well, Irishlife, the 2010 foal isn't yet born, but I am already planning the 2011 one out of my ISH Rich Rebel x Clover Hill mare...  He is a fewspot knabby called Mikker - he throws more leopard spots than blankets on plain mares though, but in the event of a blanket, I'll PM you


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## Alec Swan (7 April 2010)

[QUOTE..... As useful as saying a horse is Cavalier x Cruising x Clover Hill. Fantastic on paper but competition sires either have to prove it themselves or through their progeny......[/QUOTE]

hilly,  never a truer word. 

I've asked the question before,  and I think that it bears repeating "What of the future?".  It's been quite enthralling reading of the best of the Irish sires,  and all probably un-researched, but remembered in astounding detail.  When these stallions were in their comparative youth,  were they recognised for their worth?  Later on then of course they were.  

Where are the comparatively young stallions which those who are qualified to judge,  will bemoan the passing of,  or the sale to the Continent,  in twenty years time? It is a great shame,  I suppose,  though entirely understandable,  that a stallion,  or a potential brood mare for that matter,  which shows very real promise will be snapped up by foreign buyers.  Blame for such a sale cannot be laid at the door of the vendor.  

I'm just wondering if there were some sort of Government Premium,  payable to those stallion owners who ensure that the very best of the Irish stallions remain where they are.  Horses in Ireland tend to be viewed,  I suspect as livestock and probably rightly.  Were Defra,  or your equivalent(?),  to support a potentially huge and still growing industry,  then parting with these horses would make little sense,  for the owners,  and it may even help reduce the stud fees!

Would it be such a bad idea to have State supported,  but privately owned Stallions,  and brood mares?  Consider the boost to the Irish economy.

MFH9,  Pat,  the response from the H&H wont do at all!  I suppose that if we paid for it then we could stamp our feet,  as it's free,  then we can't!  Criteria?  what Criteria?  As you said, Humbug(ger).....!

You wouldn't believe the hours which I've both waisted and enjoyed,  reading through the collective thoughts of you all.  I'm in the middle of lambing an awful lot of sheep,  and I really must go and look at them.  

The future.  How would you see progress?

Alec.


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## Irishlife (7 April 2010)

Hi Alec

I have often thought there should be substantial subsidies for inspected and approved mares. There are colt retention schemes with premiums paid to qualifying colts to encourage owners to keep colts entire until they are 3 years old.

The same applies to mares, RIDs, Sporthorses who all have the opportunity to gain premium status in the studbook.

However, the Irish Horse Board is not wealthy and could not afford to subsidise horses to any significant degree.  Horses are indeed "livestock" and under REPS (similar in UK set aside and certain farming practices??) RID horses and Connemaras are paid a headage allowance and the department has designated horses as agricultural animals. Consequently passport control is strict and food chain considerations, meds etc same as if you have cattle (although not really strictly enforced).

Compared to the UK our stud fees are very reasonable. It only goes stratospheric for really, really top performance stallions. A very good RID would be about 450 -500 euro, sportshorse the same and Cruising and the like around 3000.

It is market forces to a degree and if horses are doing well, they will buy a few mares and ride the wave and when cattle are doing better, the horses go by the wayside.  Its a case of "money in the pocket" to a degree.

I am sure Hilly et al will expand further


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## GinnieRedwings (7 April 2010)

The French system (and I believe the German one too) is quite good that way. There is a national breeding programme which is aimed at producing top quality performance horses, as well as safekeeping certain traditional breeds (the percheron, especially). The national studs run alongside the private studs, obviously, but following a specific breeding programme which is not profit-related.

The stallions and broodmares are state-owned and the studs are run by the military. The youngsters produced are broken in and assessed/performance tested at 3 years old to decide what sort of "life" they should have. 

According to the performance test results, the youngsters will be offered out for loan to riders, some to the top show jump/event riders, some to various riding schools who have signed up for the scheme. My first grade C successes were on a fantastic little SF mare produced by the National Stud system and loaned out to the riding school I frequented.

These horses can normally not be sold on and remain the property of the French nation and can be recalled for stud duty as/when required.


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## rebel mountain (7 April 2010)

i argee and dam of the great cruising[mullacrew]was jumped by the army and then returned to mary mccann although he is down as being bred by bord na gcapall


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## Eothain (8 April 2010)

Alec, I've given you my thoughts on the future. I've been waiting on you to come back to me regarding them.

Hilly, go on so, I'll "allow" you post ear pictures so 

As long as the country is plummeting towards financial ruin, thanks in part to my fellow townsman Captain Cowen, there'll be no State Aid for studs. A Labour MEP complained to the EU about our Stallion tax exemption and that had to be done away with so can't see the Government buying mares and stallions for the time being!!!!! Pity

I'll do a post of young horse production some time closer to the weekend. It'll be another essay I think.

And as for the afforementioned Irish Draught stallions, I don't think I was hard or negative towards  them. Honest, yes but an opinion is just that. I mean, opinions are like a**eholes, everybody has one! I certainly didn't bad mouth them.

I also found out from a reliable source that Errigal Flight's owner has purchased a colt by Errigal Flight out of a well related Clover Brigade x Maculata mare with the goal of stallion retention. Happy Days For ISH Breeders.

Will likely not be on tomorrow, Cavan stallion parade is on. Might see you there!


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## marmalade76 (8 April 2010)

irishdraught said:



			I think it's great for Ireland that you now have those stallions approved, but to me, the "Irish" sports horse will be just that, ID or connemara crossed with TB.

That is what Ireland is famous for and that is why people keep going back to Ireland for their eventers.

There just seems to be so many registers popping up, I find it confusing and repetitive. 

I may be missing the point and please forgive me if I am but I hope that this "modern" breeding does not cause the demise of what Ireland already has. I personally think that the 1975 Irish Draught breeders perhaps have reason for opposition.
		
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Totally agree, I love the Irish breeds and not a fan of the continental breeds at all.


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## rebel mountain (8 April 2010)

marmalade76 said:



			Totally agree, I love the Irish breeds and not a fan of the continental breeds at all.
		
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what about harlequin du carel and now fully approved


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## Irishlife (8 April 2010)

rebel mountain said:



			what about harlequin du carel and now fully approved
		
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Harlequin du Carel is very popular with a neighbour of mine who uses him frequently. I do not know much more except he has produced some jumping stock to Grand Prix (possibly international,I'm not sure).  

I am actually quite partial to SF lines as used to ride and breed them back in the day.  I find them similar to Irish horses in so much as they seem to be a bit sharper and a bit more individual, but there again they have Tbs, Anglo Normans, Trotters and Anglo Arabs in the SF mix so that gives you an extra dimension in my opinion.


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## rebel mountain (8 April 2010)

he is getting a huge book of mares in 2008 he registered 110 foals and al l good pedigree's cruisings ,clover hill's,cavaliers,diamond lad's and sky boy's to name just a few


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## Simsar (8 April 2010)

Page two again!!


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## rebel mountain (9 April 2010)

yeah but didn't get more than huntingfield rebel a massive 210 foals register so by the time they are up to jumping age he will be more than likely dead so one one of his sons[creevagh grey rebel- oh carol rebel-rebel mountain or rosheen yeats]                    will carry the torch


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## Eothain (9 April 2010)

What torch is that?


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## BallyshanHorses (9 April 2010)

The whack of the ugly torch if you ask me.Never seen so many horses by one stallion with such roman and ugly heads.


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## Simsar (9 April 2010)

Come on guys lets keep it nice please???


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## BallyshanHorses (9 April 2010)

I am keeping it nice Simsar,I just cant understand the reasons behind some people using certain stallions except for a very good marketing machine behind them.


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## DRSsporthorses (9 April 2010)

The thing about Huntingfield Rebel that worries me is no different than any other stallion that get such huge books (200+ mares).  This makes me wary.  This sorta sets you up for failure in some respects if you are breeding with the intent to sell.  When the market gets flooded, then you are going to have an awful hard time getting a reasonable price for something when there's 20 more down the road.

I can understand it more on the continent where you have a much larger geographical area to diffuse the foals across, but in Ireland's case....a small country with huge books can be detrimental to the market value of the offspring.

Just my two cents.


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## rebel mountain (9 April 2010)

in an answer to eothain's question the torch of his achivements
1.champion rid stallion in the RDS 1999
2.sire of five approved sons[forgot rebel flagmount in last post]
3.sucessful show jumper and dressage horse
4.in goresbridge his filly foal made 11200euro
5.breed's 100% grey's


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## Eothain (9 April 2010)

5,Breeding 100% grey doesn't mean a whole pile. A good horse is never a bad colour.
4,Congratulations to all involved. I hope that fillies' new owners hope she's still worth that
3,To what level? What constitutes being a success? Running up a bunch of points at 1.20 and 1.10 isn't the same as running up points at 1.40 like Flagmount King, Classic Vision and Welcome Flagmount did.
2,That's good. I hope they contribute more to Sport Horse bredding going forward than he has thus far. How many of his stock have gone to Lanaken or Lion D'Angers?
1,He was champion pretty boy. Means nothing to me. If it means something to you then fantastic. Showing is lost on me.

I may be a touch stone faced, but I see his achievements and think to myself ... "Meh"


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## Irishlife (9 April 2010)

Back into the breach dear friends.

Huntingfield Rebel has been standing in Connaught where the density of RID mares has to be one of the highest if not the highest in Ireland. Therefore commercially it makes sense. He will get a large book consequently as he is local and his reputation for high priced stock preceded him. However, as we all know, when stallions become flavour of the month, selective breeding goes out of the window and those grassroots breeders (again) follow the yellow brick road to the latest popular stallion with total disregard for the mare they are sending to him and then they wonder why they are not achieving 11K at Goresbridge. Exceptional mares with good stallions breed exceptional stock 99% of the time.  

All stallion owners I am sure would rather not have some of the youngstock representatives on the ground that they end up with but, it is a commercial decision at the end of the day.  If they wanted to retain quality offspring they would only cover approved mares instead of any walking in.

I was involved in breeding last year's RID Dublin winner (x Glidawn Diamond) with my ex partner and I never thought the colt was anything special. I think he is a nice horse and his people think a great deal of him but he just doesn't do it for me particularly. The same mare bred 2 other RID stallions by Glidawn Diamond so they clearly nicked.  So my point is, the numbers game is not all about the stallion, its the mares he is given too as can be seen by my Glidawn Diamond example.

Right have I answered any questions, I am losing the plot here


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## rebel mountain (9 April 2010)

5.i know a good horse is never a bad colour  but chestnut fillies aren't worth a whole lot 
4.i know she might not be worth that nowbut what other draught stallion's progeny made that price as a foal
3.maybe he never went up to that level because he was eventing or maybe he wasn't good enough
2.clover hill never jumped and he did alright
1.give showing a chance it's not that bad

he not cruising but he might not make a bad wingman


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## DRSsporthorses (9 April 2010)

rebel mountain quote: 5.i know a good horse is never a bad colour but chestnut fillies aren't worth a whole lot

I have never agreed with the 'chestnut filly/mare' bias:

Sapphire is chestnut. Somehow winning a $500,000 class last week is hard to explain if that is the measure by which she is valued.
Baloufina is chestnut. Her colour is not hurting her value any.

I can think of loads of them.

I've know more than my share of nutcase bays...... I've owned several chestnut mares (have one currently) and they were the soundest minded mares they could possibly ever be. I'll take one of those thanks.


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## rebel mountain (9 April 2010)

i totally agree i have a chestnut mare myself by kildalton king i have bred her to master imp in the past so she won't breed a chestnut i think chestnuts have the temperment as any other colour but in selling horses you have to meet the buyers needs


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## Eothain (10 April 2010)

No need to lose the plot, IL. We're going to spend some time going in circles. When horse breeding is involved there will be paths beaten in circles. As I've said before, I've no problem with horses like Huntingfield Rebel. I usually won't cut somebody down for using a horse. I just don't see the point in continuing to hype horses who haven't lived up to their billing. Time to find the next potential Draught superstar.

Anyone have a colt by Seacrest out of a Flagmount King x Clover Hill mare?


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## Eothain (10 April 2010)

Fantastic news regarding next weeks ISH Stallion Approvals.

Laughton's Flight has a son going up.
Errigal Flight has two sons going up.
Guidam has a son going up who is out of the mare Cavalier mare, Naomi Campbell who already has produced the Laughton's Flight sired GP performer Rolo Tomasi. Surely one to look out for!
Cruising has four going up.

The link is on the HSI website


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## firm (10 April 2010)

200 mares though, if he is the most used stallion in Ireland is not that many. I think that the UK & Ireland need to aim higher    Danish stallion show 53000 visitors, tickets go on sale on line & sell out fast. Three year old stllion who has never set his toe in the Performance arena but graded well gets 500 mares.    Denmark must be roughly the same size as a country - ohhhhh probably really showing my geography ignorance LOL 

I remember speaking to an old breeder no longer with us sadly and he said it is a difficult one as a beautiful foals sell but if you breed for performance you likely won't get such a beauty.  He advised me that beautiful useless horses sell, ugly useless horses don't.  He said that if you don't have pots of money sometimes it is safer just to breed for beauty and he felt that was the problem.   I can see that as many top SJs are not pretty and often on here people comment how terrible top SJs look etc.

Edited to say top SJ horses ! not people


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## Irishlife (10 April 2010)

E - only losing the plot due to lateness of hour - never about horse breeding. They say evenings and afternoons best to watch stallion inspections as more going on - ie loose jumping. There are a few I wouldn't mind a look at so will pop (well make the trek) to Cavan tohave a look on one of the sporthorse days.

Firm, that is so interesting re book sizes. I am assuming there is a lot of AI therefore as it would be hard work for a stallion covering 500 in a season by himself! What happens to the not so popular stallions, what sort of numbers would they get. Some here only get quite literally a handful of mares.  In ways, this means we will never know the true potential of a stallion unless he does have a lot of progeny = more chances of success = more popularity = reputation.

There is truth in the "pretty horse" syndrome certainly for the everyday buyer. They will always be easy sellers provided they do not have exaggerated faults. The pros are way more forgiving if the horse performs.

The stallion parades here do get a pretty good turnout but they aren't all singing /dancing spectaculars as such.


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## BallyshanHorses (10 April 2010)

Firm I have to say that is only a very small percentage of stallions.The ones that get 10's in jumping and score highly in the gradings will get a lot of mares.What about all the others that didnt get such high marks.It is all about trends in Europe.You only have to look at Diarado to see that.I wonder how many he is covering now???


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## rebel mountain (10 April 2010)

what sort of mare is the laughtons flight colt out of


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## Eothain (11 April 2010)

He's out of a Clover Hill mare, Ballygowan Clover Choice, who has progeny eventing in America. Is that a tick in the box for the damline?

I hope Diarado is a success for the Holsteiners. It's good to see a new line emerging. The same goes for the thoroughbred Estaban. Hopefully in the next few years, the D and E lines will be as important as the two C lines and the L line.

As for ugly showjumping horses, please name some for me because off the top of my head I can't name any


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## GrassHorse (11 April 2010)

Ballygowan clover choice is full sister to a Helvick, he competed at 1.30m. Ballygowan clover is also half sister to SHBGB approved stallion Old Leighlin. He has produced some eventing horses. 
I think this colt will have to prove himself under the saddle!

As for ugly horses? Some people say french horses can be ugly! Ive seen a few funny looking Touchdown horses ( I like Touchdown ) But what good are looks if they can't jump?


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## GinnieRedwings (11 April 2010)

GrassHorse said:



			As for ugly horses? Some people say french horses can be ugly!
		
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French horses??? Ugly??? Ha  (I do have a duty as the token French person on this forum to be a defender of the very occasionally roman-nosed SFs - I have a roman nose too, that doesn't stop me from jumping, may I add )



GrassHorse said:



			But what good are looks if they can't jump?
		
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True, but good looking normally means well put together (unless you are talking about a pretty face - which indeed is useless for jumping!), which is pretty much a prerequisite of a top jumper, so I guess they need both! 

I'll have to echo Eothain (again!!!) - I can't think of any really ugly SJ (horses, at least, I can think of lots of ugly SJ riders )

Hum, better go, it's too late for me trying to make jokes - just going to end up getting shot down in flames...


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## Eothain (11 April 2010)

Well Kraque Boom, the current European champion does have a massive head but hey, it's all about function over form!!!

***Edit***
It is much easier to find uglier riders than pretty ones. I'll have to agree with you there


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## GinnieRedwings (11 April 2010)

Eothain said:



			Well Kraque Boom, the current European champion does have a massive head but hey, it's all about function over form!!!
		
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Well a big head probably helps him at the point of bascule over the jump... Function and form in perfect harmony


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## GrassHorse (11 April 2010)

Jan Greve reckons it's better to have a bad looking broodmare from a good family than good looking brrodmare from a bad family!


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## BallyshanHorses (11 April 2010)

I suppose at the end of the day if they can jump then it is about performance versus looks.
I talked to Gisela Holstein(mother of Heike and Eric) a few years ago who had a grand prix clover hill gelding(ugly as sin).She said that as long as he performed then it didn't matter which was very true.
When I talk about stallions producing offspring then it is fair enough if they are producing athletes but a horse breeding unattractive and below par horses has no need to be a stallion.In My Honest opinion.


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## GrassHorse (12 April 2010)

all horses jumping at the top level are in peak condition. Great coat and muscle definition. So that could be a reason why you never see bad looking horses jumping (conformation looks). If you put them out to grass for a few months maybe they would look a little different?


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## Irishlife (12 April 2010)

That is so true, I have seen some top horses let down for the winter and they are as nondescript as anything.  

I am also a lover of French horses my close second after Irish horses and they definitely have a Gallic look to them and attitude in buckets.


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## GrassHorse (12 April 2010)

I really like French horse too. ( our pretty mares can handle their roman noses )I think Harlequin du Carel is amazing. He produces lovely horses! 

I just finished rebuilding the ballymureen stud web site ( Harlequin stands there). I would appreciate any comments ?


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## rebel mountain (12 April 2010)

i am a fan of foreign breeds but we still need to keep our traditional  irish pedigree's ,traditional and free from foreign blood


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## Maesfen (12 April 2010)

GrassHorse said:



			Ballygowan clover choice is full sister to a Helvick, he competed at 1.30m. Ballygowan clover is also half sister to SHBGB approved stallion Old Leighlin. He has produced some eventing horses. 
I think this colt will have to prove himself under the saddle!
		
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Sorry, have to correct you there.  Old Leighlin is not SHBGB approved, graded whatever, at least, not according to the SHBGB site.  
He is on the NTR which entails a seriously strict veterinary exam. http://www.trefeinonhorses.co.uk/studs/oldleighlin.htm


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## Eothain (12 April 2010)

rebel mountain said:



			i am a fan of foreign breeds but we still need to keep our traditional  irish pedigree's ,traditional and free from foreign blood
		
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I thought that once to. Then I printed off a bunch of results from different shows around the world and looked at the breeding of the top placed horses. I very quickly decided to throw my patriotism in the bin.

French horses do seem to cross very well with Irish mares, see Touchdown!


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## GrassHorse (12 April 2010)

I think it became evident in the late 90s the the traditional cross wasn't working any more for producing showjumpers, except maybe clover hill and cruising. Breeders were getting better results out of the same mares when crossing them with warmbloods.

Cavalier Royale was 50% french!


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## GinnieRedwings (12 April 2010)

GrassHorse said:



			I really like French horse too. ( our pretty mares can handle their roman noses )QUOTE]

Loving the way this is nicely diverting onto French horses 

I was rooting around through (very) old pictures today and I found those, which sort of illustrate a point that keeps coming to me then going again...







Both those horses are French bred and 3 years old (I know, I know, I wouldn't dream of doing half as much with 3 year olds as I did back in the day when I didn't know any better). Don't know their exact breeding as, back then, I rode 'em and didn't worry much about how they came to be on this earth 

Here goes. The one on the left is 100% French trotter, just off the track. Even through the fuzzy photo, you can tell he has a great big unsightly head, a rather long back for a gelding and a damned good natural jump. Problem is even as a 10 year old he never managed to get his canter together and I can assure you that disingaging the back end 3 strides before a 1.20m oxer and finishing off in trot was, well... interesting. Obviously, he was limited by his inability to canter properly. 

The one on the right, SF mare, bred by the French National Stud, decent jump but limited scope (couldn't quite cover the very wide ones and struggled in the tripples) and boy oh boy the biggest heart I've ever had the priviledge to be in a partnership with - this was her very first waterjump ever! 

It is obvious that the trotter on the left was in no way impaired in his jumping ability by his big ugly head, but his conformation (he was bred to trot very fast!) - which didn't prevent him from jumping high and stylishly - stopped him from performing as he certainly couldn't stay collected long enough in canter to go round a 1.20m course.

The pretty SF on the right, though always up for it and trying her best, with a pretty decent conformation never had enough scope to go up to the top either. 

Not sure what point I was trying to make... Anyway, if we are going to argue the merits or abscence thereof of "ugly" horses, I for one want to call for a definition of "ugly".
		
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## Irishlife (12 April 2010)

I think the horseman's expression "handsome is as handsome does" really sums it up. In show jumping especially the variety of horses with talent and scope is almost endless. Yes there is consistency of breeding "type" with some of the continental stallion stations but then you also get the flukes such as Ryan's Son, Stroller, Dundrum yes going back a few years but still valid for example because horses of their ilk still occasionally come through the ranks and you think WHAT????? 

Some horses just have "it". Take racehorses and the amount of research that goes into mating and still there is a considerable amount of wasteage with the also rans.

It is not just about conformation, I agree with Ginnie that some horses are restricted in how far they will go but it is a mixture of attitude, bravery, willingness and sometimes just plain temperament and quirkiness that makes a jumper. 

Galoubet (my personal French favourite) could not be described as a looker but he was handsome and had swagger and attitude. As I have said earlier in this post I used to jump French horses and bred a couple form a good Irish mare. They are similar in attitude to Irish horses in that they have a mind of their own.


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## firm (12 April 2010)

Beauty in the eye of the beholder and all that. Playing safe by not mentioning any current horses here is a description of a previous top SJ who became a star  
"  his big head made his eyes seem even smaller than they were, his fleshy buttocks didnt augur much power and because of his under-developed withers his hindquarter seemed overbuilt. His feet showed flat heels, as many French saddlebreds did in those days. So I dont remember him as a beauty, rather as quite an ugly horse. Looking in my old catalogue, I had made a supplemental note of his lazy gallop and clumsy technique."


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## firm (12 April 2010)

The site I lifted that from has got some great quotes. Here is another for Cor De La Bryere
"that is not breeding stock, hes too much of a sport horse. Better geld him; hell make a useful gelding"


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## GinnieRedwings (12 April 2010)

Lol - I very much like those quotes, Firm.

IrishLife, you are quite right - Some horses just have "it"...


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## Doris68 (12 April 2010)

BTW, as Admin said this thread did not meet the criteria for making it a "Sticky" I did ask them if they could let me know exactly what these criteria are.......!

To date, they have not told me - methinks I might have a long wait!
*Yawns*


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## GrassHorse (12 April 2010)

To Firm,
Keep those qoutes coming! And if the stallion is dead, you can name him!


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## Eothain (13 April 2010)

I think somebody should do a study of ear size of international showjumping horses and see if there's a link between the size of a horse's ear and it's scope!


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## marmalade76 (13 April 2010)

MFH9 said:



			I remember dumbloods being referred to as such when they first started coming over here and I've not met any since that would make me change my mind; pretty? yes, athletic? yes, thick as two short planks? YES!

Bread and Butter breeders, be proud of your heritage, don't throw it away on a quick fix.
		
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Totally agree!

I am the owner of an Irish 'bread and butter' horse (3/4 ID 1/4 TB) who is now sadly retired, so I will hopefully be looking for another soon. But, I will be steering well clear of anything that is tainted with 'dumblood'. I want a horse can gallop (IME dumbloods can't gallop) and hunt all day and come home sound. I want a horse that thinks for itself and looks after itself, because a horse that looks after itself will look after me.

I read the article about Grange Bouncer and was really impressed. He is still doing the job he was bred to do at the age of eighteen, not wrapped up in cotton wool and never ridden outside of an arena. I do not breed, but if I did, he would be the stallion I would use.

The only continental breeds I would consider giving stable room to are Trakehner and SF, but as someone said before, the French use a lot of TB and Anglo Arab, both breeds I love that I certainly would not describe as dumb!


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## Eothain (13 April 2010)

At last, a serious post. Thanks Marmalade.

Here we go!

When people come to Ireland looking for what you have described, they will always, always find them by the lorry load. That's not in question. This entire topic snow balled from me mentioning a few horses that have been approved for use in Ireland to hopefully improve the standard of our showjumpers.
There is not a big enough market for all the breeders in Ireland to focus on breeding happy hackers. In fact, I'd rather become a hermit than breed the bread and butter type year in, year out.

Yes, they're saleable,

Yes, they're important,

Yes, they have a good market,

but no, it's not the only market we should aim for.

Where are the Irish dressage horses? Non-existant because they don't move well enough. Why have our eventers been so successful, by accident I might add!? Because, they didn't jump well enough to be pure jumpers, didn't move well enough to be pure dressage horses but would gallop all day long and would jump anything they met. It's the same reason they make super hunters.

So since things are getting slighty more serious again, please folks, tell me this. What should the ISH aim to be in the future?

You see, we don't rank as a dressage horse, We've fallen to the gutter as a showjumping horse and both the Hannovarians and the Selle Francais are gunning for our accidental eventing crown. So as an international sports horse, the ISH is hanging on by it's finger tips yet we produce the top leisure horses in the world. Is that good enough? We've tried to be successful using our best native lines but have only Cruising and his progeny to show for our efforts. Is that good enough? No, it's not.

So, I'm begging you to tell me, how can we reach the top again? Being second is no good either. When you're second, you're first of the losers. How can we be #1 again as an international sports horse? Or do we walk away from that challenge like a bunch of quitters and be happy to produce happy hackers for ever more?

Please tell me


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## GrassHorse (13 April 2010)

Eothain said:



			When people come to Ireland looking for what you have described, they will always, always find them by the lorry load.
		
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Good point Eothain!
I agree, there is no chance that we will loose are native horses. There are loads of breeders that have not used warmbloods and never will.


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## Simsar (13 April 2010)

Eothain said:



			Or do we walk away from that challenge like a bunch of quitters and be happy to produce happy hackers for ever more?

Please tell me
		
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I think that your last sentence sums it up for me, having horses of different breeding being above the ISH in the World rankings should make you want to pull your finger out and try to compete with them without following a trend. Be a trend setter bring back the ISH as it was, put the time, effort, money and PRODUCTION into them like you have the Warmblood crosses and don't be a bunch of quitters giving up at the first hurdle, then and only then will you have something to be proud of!!! 

As said in a above post look at how many TB's are bred to get those FEW TOP ones, the same goes for Warmbloods, are there any where near as many traditional ISH's bred and produced to that level? I think not, yet as you say they are still holding on.

What happens to the WB horses that don't make the grade, they go on to be Happy hackers???? Production is the key.............

Simon


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## Irishlife (13 April 2010)

Eothain

I feel your passion jumping off the page. It hurts not one bit to divert into a bit of fun and frivolity, had a bit of a chortle and got to know each other a bit more. We have discovered some interesting bits and pieces had pics of big ears and Ginnie's lovely French horses. 

I know you most likely had your Offaly tongue in cheek  but actually, horses with big radar ears do tend to be more generous, honest and kind. A lot of people won't buy a horse with mean ears and I know a couple of top show producers who look for that particular trait. Maybe you are on to something 

The leisure market is huge we are talking millions of leisure riders in the UK, Europe and the USA and a significant market share want Irish sport horses and Connemaras we do not throw that away or consider it any less valid than breeding 1.50m horses, in fact it is our foundation stone and if breeding and selling those horses as "bread and butter" income gives us some finance to then go and buy our expensive semen from the continent, then we are luckier than most people breeding today.  

Because breeding is a lottery, diversity is the key because your bread and butters underwrite your specialist breeding programme.  If you put all of your eggs in one basket you may end up with unsaleable horses. Who is really going to buy an Irish warmblood that cannot jump or do dressage.  You have to consider the wastage - every elite horse you breed is not going to be Nations Cup material and you would need serious finance to support that type of bre ding programme as it is not so easy to dispose of the average ones as everybody expects if they buy a warmblood they are buying potential such has been the success of the marketing machine. 

The price of getting a foal on the ground is way more expensive and the potential for losing money is enormous.

I also think that national pride is a factor because after all a Hanoverian or Selle Francais can never claim to be truly French or German because of the introduction of other bloodlines to improve the breed.  So why is the term Irish bred not acceptable? We already do it with foreign bloodlines that have been born and bred here  we call them Irish Sport Horses because they have not been performance tested or born in their native land.

On the subject of Eventers I think it is blasé to say they are not quite good enough at anything so they do eventing. Eventing is a specialised and the most difficult discipline. It says so much for Irish bred horses that they have the temperament to do a dressage test requiring control, calmness and accuracy when they are fit enough to run the Grand National. They have the heart, courage and stamina to jump across country and then show jump. Nobody will say Eventers are particularly talented at show jumping but they dont have to be, the jumping effort is to test soundness and stamina and discipline after the cross country phase. 

It is no surprise the French are doing so well Eventing, they use similar types to us mostly TB with a bit of native cop on.  The modern Hanoverians have more blood than ever before so its fairly obvious. We are the number one Eventing studbook because we know how to breed those essential ¾, 7/8 TB s that have taken the world by storm.  

I think we need to identify potential show jumping horses at an early age so they can be monitored and then selected for appropriate training.  If we had more of a performance test environment, I would not mind betting we would find some superstars we are missing that are currently idling their time away in a field.

I do not disagree with you that we should not be trying new approaches but I think we are missing out a lot due to our inspection and performance monitoring.  I keep breeding my bread and butters but because I happen to have a TBxWarmblood mare, I have bred a filly from her using a warmblood stallion who is very good who has the best of continental bloodlines and she will be put to a top class continental when she is three.

PS: Irish lovers  my filly I love to death but she is a bit t.h.i.c.k


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## Maesfen (13 April 2010)

Irishlife said:



			PS: Irish lovers  my filly I love to death but she is a bit t.h.i.c.k

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One hates to gloat, can anyone see me gloating, of course you can't!


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## marmalade76 (13 April 2010)

Eothain, I'm not saying that breeders should not try to keep up with Europe in the production of show jumpers and dressage horses, I just don't want breeders to give up breeding the proper Irish horses that we love. The demand for leisure horses is far greater than the demand for top sj and dressage horses. Many people look to Ireland for hunters, eventers and show horses, not just happy hackers and cobs.


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## Flash_28 (13 April 2010)

Hmmmmm I found this thread as I've trying to find out some info on my new additions breeding. Then found this. I think I may have struck gold with this little one. He's just about to turn a year old and I have paid a stupid price for him as he was destined for the meat factory! I paid his meat price so I could give him a new home with me. Everyone is ranting about breeding a load of new horses. My new guy is coming straight from the breeder in very poor condition. The breeder couldn't shift him as no one is buying new horses in Ireland. In a way finding this thread has made me quite sad as lots of people just wanna breed the next crop of foals and try and make the next lot while people can't home the foals they have just bred. Their way of shifting them is to send them to the factories. But on the other hand I'm feeling really quite excited about my new guy now. His grandsire is Cruising. Yay to my little Foalio.


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## firm (13 April 2010)

The thing that worries me about the eventing side of things, I read the KWPN mag a couple of years back that said they were looking at this area next. It opened me up to how commercial and serious business it is. They didn't recommend going out & using UK & Irish eventing stallions. The Irish/UK horse are up against from the start - they don't have strong studbook promoting them like that. Maybe Ireland does?  Are the Dutch flocking to use Jumbo whilst he is still alive? Meanwhile we do half their job for them  -  use their stallions on our TB mares instead of home based stallions and horses are imported here to the best eventer producing system in the world where the best riders are based and before you know it, their horses or horses by their stallions  are the top of eventing rankings.

I do think if something isn't done then ISH might be knocked off the rankings. Ireland maybe in a stronger position than the UK as I hope/think Ireland has great links with event riders etc   It has been mentioned before but if you breed succesful Irish eventers with just Irish bloodlines then you have a unique "product" to be sold to everywhere else in the world. You also want those buyers to come back to buy the same again in Ireland and to support that studbook by registering foals in it and using the stallions that go through that studbook system so more & more horses worldwide who compete will have that Irish studbook by their name so when they do well in the rankings  the studbook gets more money & recogniton for more promotion. I don't think this can ever be done in the UK because we have so many studbooks, so many microchipping companies etc each working individually for their own wee bit of profit unless BEF performs a miracle, but in Ireland it doesn't seem so bad  


I don't think breeding eventers is just a happy accident. The best German breeder of eventers is I think the gentleman who bred the Butts horses and I believe he set out to breed eventers & he used TB sires & he was very successful. The German bred top eventer Sam by Stan the Man, I read an article about him recently & I think it said he had been turned down at grading in Germany for being to small or something and gelded. Apologies to all if incorrect the translaton wasn't great but maybe over here he would have been kept as an eventing stallion & been successful.  A bit of a ramble  sorry


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## firm (13 April 2010)

Grasshorse just for you   Quote about Voltaire 
"he was a horse that no-one wanted! He was a bit small (just 162 cms) and had a problem with one hoof, and he was rejected by the Oldenburg licensing commission"


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## Irishlife (13 April 2010)

Flash_28 said:



			Their way of shifting them is to send them to the factories. But on the other hand I'm feeling really quite excited about my new guy now. His grandsire is Cruising. Yay to my little Foalio.
		
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I think you will find that horses are still selling in Ireland if Goresbridge and Cavan sales figures are correct and they are improving slightly in price. Quality youngstock will always find a home and while the market may be down it certainly is not out.

There are some welfare issues in Ireland at the moment and the factories are busier. The history of overproduction in relation to the Celtic Tiger is another thread on its own.  

I do not know of a single breeder who would send a quality foal to a factory especially if it had good breeding, but stranger things have happened.

I think I speak for all responsible breeders in Ireland who take it on the chin when times are hard but ultimately remain responsible and maintain a duty of care to their stock because it is the right thing to do and we are proud of the quality we produce.   

I hope your foal is lucky for you but please do not tarnish the reputation of Irish breeders with generalisations.

Eothain may well be banging your door down for a bit of Cruising blood


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## Irishlife (13 April 2010)

FIRM - I insist you reveal the website where these gems are coming from! 

Unless of course - you are a secret warm blood inspector and these snippets are your own notes!!  Dish the dirt I am going demented


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## GrassHorse (13 April 2010)

Ah ha, I heard that one before!
Jan Greve bought him for pennies. He bought him at the sales, where no one would go near him with his cracked/broken hoof. Well done Jan!


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## Flash_28 (13 April 2010)

Irishlife said:



			I think you will find that horses are still selling in Ireland if Goresbridge and Cavan sales figures are correct and they are improving slightly in price. Quality youngstock will always find a home and while the market may be down it certainly is not out.

There are some welfare issues in Ireland at the moment and the factories are busier. The history of overproduction in relation to the Celtic Tiger is another thread on its own.  

I do not know of a single breeder who would send a quality foal to a factory especially if it had good breeding, but stranger things have happened.

I think I speak for all responsible breeders in Ireland who take it on the chin when times are hard but ultimately remain responsible and maintain a duty of care to their stock because it is the right thing to do and we are proud of the quality we produce.   

I hope your foal is lucky for you but please do not tarnish the reputation of Irish breeders with generalisations.

Eothain may well be banging your door down for a bit of Cruising blood 

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Sorry for the generalisation as I do realise that there will be many breeders who will do right by their horses. Although I think most people would be suprised at the kind of horses that are going to the factories. There are a lot of companion horses yes or light hackers but there have also been many young horses with amazing breeding. I know I was suprised to find out. I put myself forward for my little guy without knowing his breeding, I just saw his really cute little face and was sold. I was then suprised to find out who his grandsire was! I just hope that things do continue to improve so that there will be less horses facing the factory like my little guy was.


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## Irishlife (13 April 2010)

Flash_28 said:



			I just saw his really cute little face and was sold. I was then suprised to find out who his grandsire was! I just hope that things do continue to improve so that there will be less horses facing the factory like my little guy was.
		
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I can't resist a cute face myself.

I hope things improve too and I hope your little Cruising does his grandad and you proud. Is he grey by any chance?


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## Flash_28 (13 April 2010)

Irishlife said:



			I can't resist a cute face myself.

I hope things improve too and I hope your little Cruising does his grandad and you proud. Is he grey by any chance?
		
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Unfortunately no he's not grey  Which is a massive shame as I really love greys! This is the 2nd horse I have now who have grey sires or grandsires and they aren't grey!  My little Cruising is a bay with 3 little white socks and little star on his head. My mare is by Petong a very nice grey TB but she is very dark chocolatey brown/black. 

I was looking at saving up for a grey Holstein but found Foaly. I'm really looking forward to him coming over now  Shouldn't be too long now!


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## DRSsporthorses (13 April 2010)

Ok, I just have to chime on a section of this discussion regarding the US market for hunters and happy hackers. The so-called 'huge market' for these types of horses in the US is far from what is being implied from a series of posts I'm reading here. There is in fact a very limited market for those types of horses in the US. The US is in no way similar to the UK or Ireland when you are discussing these types of horses.

Jumper market for Irish horses: yes, Eventer market for Irish horses: yes. Hunter market for Irish horses: no. 

US hunters are in no way the type of horse that is being implied here. Hunters in the US are unique to the US. They are extremely fancy and extremely refined. I do not mean 'light' I mean 'refined'. That is: they have fancy attractive bodies and heads, they are clean-legged almost to a fault, they have extremely quiet, easy ways-of-going. They do auto flying changes. They move in big long, low loping strides. They trot with flat knees and big floating gaits. In essence, everything is quiet and invisible and they do it all 'on the buckle' -- that means looping long reins. These are not the types of 'happy hacker/hunters' that are being inferred here. And yes I am well aware of the Irish hunters you are talking about. What I am saying is: they are not the same thing. Most of the ones I have seen--and believe me I am always evaluating what I see--are not refined enough for the US. I would be happy to provide YouTube links to anyone who wishes to view what a US hunter really is.

I have seen at most a handful of Irish-bred horses, most of whom were bred for eventing, that come close to this type of horse. If you have one: great there is a market for your horse in the US as a hunter. If it doesn't fit the description above, then you are out of luck: no market. There are millions of those type of horses that people can pay 2-5k for down the road in US vs. twice as much for shipping and then the purchase price on top of that. Don't get me wrong. I am not in any way belittling Irish horses.  They are not however US hunters, nothing wrong with that, its just the way it is.  By all means to those people that produce those, have at it.  Just don't think that they automatically suit the US market and you can sell it for big money there.

There are vastly few people in the US who are going to pay 10k to ship a horse to US if it is strictly a happy hacker.  If you think the market you are in now is competitive, look to the US.  The US looks for continental-bred horses for a reason: they fit the market. European sellers know the US market and produce horses that fit that market accordingly, which is why they get the big money for them.

Please be aware when you are talking about markets that what is in the US may not be quite what you think it is.


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## Irishlife (13 April 2010)

DRSsporthorses said:



			Ok, I just have to chime on a section of this discussion regarding the US market for hunters and happy hackers. The so-called 'huge market' for these types of horses in the US is far from what is being implied from a series of posts I'm reading here.
		
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Thanks for the update on the US market. I wasn't suggesting the US was a mass market for Irish horses if that is how it came across, only that it has been a traditional market in the past for certain types. Agreed only for those horses with exceptional talent that you referred to in your post - the jumpers and eventers would it be worthwhile importing.

I have watched a good few hunter/jumper classes and the manners of these animals are unbelievable as are the courses they are jumping in simple snaffles and cavessons. We could do with a few of those classes here.

Please post the You Tube links - would love to have a look.


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## Maesfen (13 April 2010)

Interesting about the American hunters.  A friend of ours is Huntsman to a large pack over there and he would give his eye teeth for a proper Irish hunt horse, says the American ones just don't cut the mustard or take the work that the proper Irish horses do.  He says  they look pretty but that's about it as far as he is concerned; he would far rather have something that can do the job with a bit of substance.


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## GinnieRedwings (13 April 2010)

Might just be the difference between a hunter that shows and a hunter that works...


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## DRSsporthorses (13 April 2010)

Its really all point of view. Granted some people's point of view is that a hunter is only useful if it works in the field. Fine. Just that the focus in the US is not about the field, its about the show ring. People can think whatever way they like about it, but the focus is different. That's just how it is. Bad, good, indifferent...doesn't matter.

Few people in the US strictly hunt, and the ones that do are for the most part (unless privately wealthy) not willing to pay the high expense to ship one over for strictly that purpose. There just aren't the numbers of people who hunt in the US vs. other countries to accommodate that type of horse. They can buy other horses for less money to suit the purpose. In the past, yes it happened more when money was less of an issue, today: not so. An the exchange rate isn't helping the issue either.

For the record there is absolutely nothing wrong with traditional type horses, just that it costs a lot to ship them and that most Irish horses (particularly with Draught in them) don't fit the bill for the purpose people would be buying.  Are they useful yes, do they fit the US hunters, no.  They just aren't refined enough and don't move well enough.  Of the stallions standing in Ireland there are a few that fit the bill....though they are continental-bred.  Lancelot is one, and is a proven hunter sire in the US.  I can think of a couple others: Abalou-Verte fits the type and I have told Andrea Etter so. A Quidam M is another, and I've told Tina McDermott so. Its all about way of going, movement, type and style. I can't think of a single traditional Irish-bred horse that fits the market. Not even the Clover Hills. Most people in the US looking to buy a hunter don't care if it hunts in the field or not. Because most will never participate in hunting anyway even if they had the opportunity. 


I'll dig up some hunter video links and post them so people can have a look. Don't have time to do it right now, but I'll get some out there.


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## GinnieRedwings (13 April 2010)

I wasn't being judgemental either way when I made the comment about showing and working. It was simply a statement of fact - that a worker is probably going to be very different from a show animal, simply because the emphasis is placed on very different qualities and therefore the attributes being bred into each type are going to be different. 

The only judgement I will make - and I have the same issue with showing across the board, whether horses, dogs or anything else - is that showing was supposed to be for the purpose of preserving an animal's type for a purpose and therefore presenting floaty pristine show ponies and calling them "hunters" is, in my opinion, and I will stress that it is only my opinion, against the original aim of showing.

What markets demand is another matter altogether and we can all refer to many points in this thread when people have argued for breeding "bread and butter" horses over potential champions. 

I think the point is that the "mass market" for good Irish hunters and general alrounders is still predominantly the UK, where, yes, people actually go hunting with their hunters, or crash around hunter trial or SJ courses at the week end and have a gallop through the stubbles and end up down a village pub on a sunny Sunday afternoon, where their horses are just tied up in the car park or the beer garden and wait there quietly to bring inhebriated riders home (you can tell I'm not talking from experience ). Those riders, the vast majority of UK horse owners, have been and will be a mass market for Irish hunters, as they are generally 100% fit for purpose. (And I know Eothain will not be seen dead breeding one of those, but most people I know are really fond of them )

Just recently, the German warmblood marketing machine has upset the balance by pushing "failed" dressage divas onto poor unsuspecting British teenage girls, who can be seen hopelessly overhorsed and petrified on flashy prancing animals, snorting like dragons and spooking at their own shadows at local shows.

Rant over. DRSsporthorses, you are right, there is no good reason for Americans to import utility horses from Ireland when they have great working horses onsite with the quarter horses - strong, brave, agile and a heck of a back end on them...


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## firm (13 April 2010)

Hi Irishlife - this is the website. Not a WB inspector LOL.  It is great I have hardly scratched the surface and it is amazing how many stallion legends didn't initially impress and had things like hernias  

http://www.horsemagazine.com/BREEDINGBARN/GreatStallions.html


When I think of Irish hunters I think of those that cross all country and these types who go for a fair bit of pennies I hear  http://www.davidtatlow.com/


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## Irishlife (13 April 2010)

Thanks for that Firm will enjoy having a look later now all the horses are in bed. David Tatlow placed my 2yo at the All Ireland final so I quite like him. He didn't make me an offer though but that's OK because the horse is a mud machine on four legs and loves his cross country so no more show ring for him.   You have to hand it to those top show people, the effort and presentation is amazing. We are only amateurs but it is fun for me showing the babies as I don't do any ridden shows these days and its beer money and a ribbon for me if my luck is in.


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## rebel mountain (13 April 2010)

as far as irish sj's go we have produced the top before i think we can do it again we still have strong influences from clover hill,cruising and cavalier can we not not produce top sj's from those raw material's


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## BallyshanHorses (13 April 2010)

Rebel Mountain.You cant justify Cavalier as Irish I hope.He was as foreign as they come.People only accepted him so willingly as he did a great job when crossed with Irish mares.


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## Simsar (13 April 2010)

DRS please take a look at the following link and tell me that 'Bellman' and his sons don't move well enough for Show Hunters.  Winmaur Sargeant Pepper moves like a dream, as do all of the ID and ISH stallions at this stud (in America).

http://www.blackberryridgefarm.com/stallions.html


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## Bearskin (13 April 2010)

Photo at top of page is of a "traditionally" bred ISH. TB sire and Irish mother. Please don't stop breeding them!

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=303640&highlight=able+albert&page=4


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## DRSsporthorses (13 April 2010)

Simsar: Can't get any of the video links to work on the Blackberry site so really can't tell you anything about them. 

Not sure how many times I need to say this: I have no issue with Irish draughts.  The discussion isn't about dishing on Irish draughts.  The comment was about the 'huge' market for 'happy hackers/traditional-style hunters' in the US.  The stallions on that Blackberry website are very nice, no doubt about that. But that's not what is winning in the hunter ring in the US and its not what US purchasers who go to Ireland are looking for. They are looking for eventers and showjumpers. Americans heading over the Atlantic to purchase hunters are going to the continent, not Ireland for the reasons stated above. I didn't create the American hunter trade, it was there long before now and will continue to be. I'm simply the messenger. Shoot the messenger if you like, won't change the fact that Irish draughts in the US are a niche market. Also won't change the fact that most people won't spend the money to ship a happy hacker to the US when they don't have to.

I don't breed draughts any more than I breed horses for the US hunters.  If I found one that I thought I could ship and sell for that market I would do it, sure thing. I'm sure most people would if they thought they could make some money by doing it. The right horse for the hunter market is hard to come by.

We have plenty of friends that breed super nice Irish draughts, no problem there. Simply the US market is pretty slim for draughts.  Americans breeding draughts in the US have a much better chance at selling them simply for the reason they eliminate the cost of shipping overseas (currently in the 10k range). 

For those asking about links to US hunters: here are a few. This is the type of horse that is winning in the hunters in the US and the type of horses Americans are looking for when they shop overseas. Pay close attention to the easy way-of-going, the long, flat, low movement (particularly at the trot). Fence heights range from 1.10 (3'6") -1.25 (4 ft).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r13J-QNiPlQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaKaLwvIOCg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elAYfXxEcnQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYH0DVtjc78&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuZnnI-rV0k


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## Simsar (13 April 2010)

Bearskin I take it you are talking about the mare as the youngster is by Caretino Glory??


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## Bearskin (13 April 2010)

You must be looking at a different page to me!  The horse in the XC jumping photo is by Able Albert out of a Diamond Lad mare.


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## BallyshanHorses (13 April 2010)

I think our Arkansas that went to America was originally destined for a career in Hunter classes but as far as I can work out he is jumping in normal show jumping classes.Maybe he was too bulky.I can never understand the classes when I log on to search for him on usef.
Maybe you may know what they all mean H.Will Pm you.


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## Simsar (13 April 2010)

Bearskin found it ignore me I'm a thicket!

DRS the second video (grey horse) looks and goes very similar to a Working Hunter my Mrs bred 10 years ago who was out of a TB mare by an ID stallion, I see what you mean about them being refined but you can get an ID/TB like that, I was just pointing out that when referring to the BRF stud and there stallions, they would cross well to make your hunter types. I understand what you are saying about the market in the USA but just trying to stick with my theory about not HAVING to use continental breeds. 

This is the ID/TB who I referred to above, I will try and find a pic of him moving






and this is our ID colt who we think moves exceptionally and is hopefully destined for great things (fingers crossed).


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## Bearskin (13 April 2010)

Having worked in the US and been to a few shows I can say that the Hunters are of various types.  The top ones are very pretty though. Tidy build, flat movers (as opposed to lots of knee action) and the jumping ones have classic technique but not neccessarily huge power/scope. Their temperaments need to be perfect.


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## Eothain (14 April 2010)

And this thread has come roaring back to life!

Like this: rrrrrroooooaaaaaarrrrrr!!!!!!

I'm going to avoid the American Hunter question for a moment because I know sweet f**k all about it, so my apologies for rewinding back to Irish eventers.

There are very few people in this country who bred eventers on purpose and I will stand over that comment whole heartedly. Off the top of my head, the only people I know who breed for eventing are John Watson, Horseware Bushman, the Walsh family in Kilkenny who bred Hugginstown and Dromgurrihy Blue. They also bred the mare Eskerhills Lexis, a full sister to Dromgurrihy Blue, that I showjump. She was placed at 1.20 last year and hopefully will move up to 1.35 for the 7 Year Old classes this year. They also bred a magnificent Guidam/Shannondale Y2K colt that makes me sick everytime I think how I couldn't afford him when I was down there!!! Ted Walsh, sire of Ruby, bred the horse Stoneybrook specifically for Katie to event. He's by Cruising out of a point to point winning Bahrain mare. Sue Short rides him now I think.

I'm sure there is plenty more of Eventing specific breeders but they're in a minority. Simple as that. Most breeders dream of seeing their horse on RTE 1 in the RDS main arena on the first friday in August.

Let's look at Mr Medicott for example. Francis Connors produced to jump in the 5 year old classes and while he was no doubt very good, Francis told his owners that he wasn't careful enough to go further. So he was brought eventing and long story short, ended up winning team gold at the 2008 Olympiad.

As the dressage phase becomes more and more important in eventing, more and more riders are bringing out continental horses. Look at Ollie Townend and his team of greys. I'm not sure how they're bred but they're not Irish, which for me is a problem.

Way back somewhere in the first 15 pages I think, I described what I would do with the ISH studbook to improve our show jumpers, defend our eventing position and keep our general purpose horses. It was robust and fair.

For the record, I have no problem with general purpose horses. If I can find one cheap, school it up and sell it on then happy days but I absolutely refuse to accept the argument that horses bred to showjump must go to 1.60 level or the like or face being branded a failure. Every year in this country hundreds of riders retire from jumping ponies and look for useful horses to learn the game for horse classes. That is where the market is in my mind. A horse that can be ridden around 1.10 and brought up to 1.30 if needs be and be competitive in the ever-increasingly professional Young Rider classes.

You see, my goal is two fold. The people in this recession who have money and the people who had money at the height of the boom were spending it on horses outside of our country. They were buying in all manner and sort of warmblood horse. Swedish, Belgian, Holstein, Hannovarian, French, name it, it came in.

So here's the problem for me. If the quality of our horses were better then even without foreign buyers coming in, the economic strenght of the sport horse sector increases because the hundreds of thousands that were being spent abroad are staying in the country.

When a foreign dealer/agent sells a horse for let's say 50,000, they can take perhaps 30,000 of that and invest it in new horses. Thats 6 foals bought for 5,000. All the auxillory people involved in the process then see a trickle of that money which helps the entire sector float.

Where does the business end of things involve breeding? Well they go hand in hand. Only by breeders having a good business plan to go with their breeding strategy can sport horse breeding in Ireland shake the negative image of being a hobby industry, the poor cousin of the thoroughbred juggernaut if you will.

Clearly our current breeding lines aren't good enough to cut it anymore, so far from quitting, we're breeding fresh life into a stagnant pool of genetics. Re-invigorating the breed and rebooting our horses. What happens then? We firstly entice back the non-breeding nations for our horses, Italy, Switzerland, Finland, Norway etc. Why? Because we'll have a marketable product that will once again have a place in the elite market. We break back into the American Hunter market. Business can pick up then for an entire sector, be we have got to be innovative in how we go about improving the standard of our horses. Playing the mad scientist with differing degrees of ID and TB crosses has not, will not, does not work. It has failed miserably. I blame the Draught breeders who oppose any attempts to performance test Draught horses. I say applaude the Draught men who have kept up to speed by jumping their horses up to a decent height in open competition. What is a decent height? For me it's at least 1.20m

This thread represents the elite market for me. No, every horse will not make it on to the Global Champions Tour but if it can help a Young Rider pay for his or her diesel every week then fantastic stuff. If it can help a Young Rider develop a career, even better again!

I'm trying my damndest to look at the big picture here but I must stress, I'm talking in general about improving our showjumpers because defending our eventing crown is a whole different procedure which I'd be delighted to discuss and the darling general purpose horses will always be there but Britain cannot be the sole buyer of our stock. We don't want market saturation, which we're approaching much too quickly. If we are to increase our buyer range, then we improve our product.

The Continental x Irish cross is already yielding results for breeders. Forgetting about the Cavalier's for a moment:

Fresh Direct Kalico Bay. Tim Stockdale, GBR. 2nd BP Cup, Spruce Meadows Masters 2009 as an 8 year old. Limmerick (Holst) x Cruising
Dorada. Shane Breen, IRL. Joint 3rd DFS Hickstead Derby 2009 Harlequin Du Carel x Clover Hill
Carmena Z. Shane Breen, IRL. Queen Elizabeth II Cup, Hickstead Royal International 2008 as an 8 year old. Carthago x Irco Mena x King Of Diamonds
Ringfort Cruise. Capt David O'Brien, IRL. Double Clear Lisbon Nations Cup 2007. Cruising x Nimmerdor.
Touchdown. James Kernan, IRL. Barcelona Olympics 1992. Highest Irish finisher and sire of 2002 World Champion, Liscalgot. Galoubet A x Cheyne

If we are to be competitive as a showjumping breed and have an economically viable breeding sector then like it or not then one or two more generations of Irish horses need to be crossed with foreign blood. That will develop new exciting lines that can be crossed with the good young stallions we have coming on like Cara Touche, Cruisings MF, Samjemgee, Oldtown KC etc. Then and only then will be competitive as a jumping breed.

Please note I'm omitting mention of quality mares because at this point it goes without saying.

Only when we make the difficult choices for our horses going forward with the 2028 Olympics as our goal, will it be Happy Days For ISH Breeders


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## marmalade76 (14 April 2010)

DRSsporthorses said:



			Simsar: Can't get any of the video links to work on the Blackberry site so really can't tell you anything about them. 

Not sure how many times I need to say this: I have no issue with Irish draughts.  The discussion isn't about dishing on Irish draughts.  The comment was about the 'huge' market for 'happy hackers/traditional-style hunters' in the US.  The stallions on that Blackberry website are very nice, no doubt about that. But that's not what is winning in the hunter ring in the US and its not what US purchasers who go to Ireland are looking for. They are looking for eventers and showjumpers. Americans heading over the Atlantic to purchase hunters are going to the continent, not Ireland for the reasons stated above. I didn't create the American hunter trade, it was there long before now and will continue to be. I'm simply the messenger. Shoot the messenger if you like, won't change the fact that Irish draughts in the US are a niche market. Also won't change the fact that most people won't spend the money to ship a happy hacker to the US when they don't have to.

I don't breed draughts any more than I breed horses for the US hunters.  If I found one that I thought I could ship and sell for that market I would do it, sure thing. I'm sure most people would if they thought they could make some money by doing it. The right horse for the hunter market is hard to come by.

We have plenty of friends that breed super nice Irish draughts, no problem there. Simply the US market is pretty slim for draughts.  Americans breeding draughts in the US have a much better chance at selling them simply for the reason they eliminate the cost of shipping overseas (currently in the 10k range). 

For those asking about links to US hunters: here are a few. This is the type of horse that is winning in the hunters in the US and the type of horses Americans are looking for when they shop overseas. Pay close attention to the easy way-of-going, the long, flat, low movement (particularly at the trot). Fence heights range from 1.10 (3'6") -1.25 (4 ft).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r13J-QNiPlQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaKaLwvIOCg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elAYfXxEcnQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYH0DVtjc78&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuZnnI-rV0k

Click to expand...

Wow, thanks for that!

How lovely to see such relaxed and comfortable horses ridden in such simple tack - not even a flash noseband to be seen!

And how nice to see riders sitting quietly and letting the horses get on with it, rather than hooking and pushing.

Hard to believe that this is the same country that does such awful things to  Tennessee walking  horses.


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## Maesfen (14 April 2010)

DRSsporthorses said:



			Its really all point of view. Granted some people's point of view is that a hunter is only useful if it works in the field. Fine. Just that the focus in the US is not about the field, its about the show ring. People can think whatever way they like about it, but the focus is different. That's just how it is. Bad, good, indifferent...doesn't matter.
		
Click to expand...

Going by the You Tube videos, I can see why my Huntsman friend doesn't like them to hunt hounds from.  There's no substance (other than condition) to them and they don't 'get on' or seem to have a brain which a person hunting or whipping in to hounds must have in their horses, they all seem too 'programmed'.  
Hunt horses are their tools for the job, nothing more, nothing less as those in the clips, while pretty, aren't workmanlike enough to do his job.  It's the one thing he misses more than anything, some decent hunt horses while the rest of the job and the people, are absolutely fine and he enjoys his job.  He is working on the ones he's got and some are improving; it just takes a lot of time and effort as it's not natural to them.


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## Simsar (14 April 2010)

Why oh why would you want something that goes like that??  As for the quote about not being tied down/ noseband it has a standing martingale!  Not that it has a purpose.  So many americans ride like that and have their horse like that It scares me!

Sorry but I don't like the vidoes one bit!  Sarah.


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## DRSsporthorses (14 April 2010)

Well I'm not trying to convince anyone what is suitable for the hunt fields vs. what is suitable for the American hunters. I don't care one way or the other, I'm only explaining what the differences are. The whole topic arose from the comments regarding selling happy hackers to the US, so let's not confuse the discussion with what people agree with or don't agree with. 

The simple truth is hunters in the US are different because the focus and the goals are different. There are field hunters for sure, but that accounts for maybe 1% of the hunters in the US, so the issue was: don't look to the US to sell your happy hunters because you won't find the market to be so great for them.

The suitability isn't the question either. The question is what can somebody's kid get on, ride and be safe on, and 99% of those kids aren't going into the field in America. So suitability is based upon need for which people would be buying. Again, the focus is different hence the difference in what people purchase.

You may believe the horses are 'programmed' or have no brains. That is not the case. They are 'schooled' on the flat extensively...as in 'training.' For every one well-schooled horse on the flat I can find in Ireland, I can show you 20 that aren't. To be honest it's not worth my while or worthwhile to the discussion to get into brains, training or the amount of flatwork the horses have had to get them to where they are because that is an entirely different thread altogether. 

Substance is a whole topic unto itself. Horses can have substance and be refined. Horses can also have substance and lack quality and refinement. Horses can also be light and lack refinement. This topic is for another thread and I'm sure would open and entirely new can of worms. Let's leave that topic for another day.

As for the standing martingales, they are standard attire. Like it, don't like it...it is what it is. I would ask any of you who are saying that these horses head's are tied down to go back and view the videos much more closely. You will find they are in no way tied down. They in fact are quite loose. A correctly adjusted standing martingale can loop all the way up to the horse's chin with your hand when you push it up while the horse is standing still. 
Running martingales are forbidden in American hunters, as are flash nosebands. Plain cavesons only. 

People were asking what American hunters were and I provided videos of some of the best. The second video, of the grey horse Rumba is about as good as you get.  Does anyone really think that horse looks unhappy with his job?  Like him or not...the horse sold for close to a million dollars. Are you going to venture out in the field with a million dollar horse? He has his purpose, is very happy doing it, and does it well.  He suits his purpose.  Rumba is the type of horse people are looking for in America.  Let me point out something about the way the horse moves: go back and look at the horse trotting and the length of the stride with the amount of suspension in the gait.  Same at the canter...he covers the ground effortlessly. Those are some of the reasons the horse is so valuable. That is why American buyers go to Europe for hunters, because the continental horses provide the suspension in the gaits that the Irish draught does not.  Europe is breeding those type of horses. They have the gaits, the suspension, the style, and the type to suit the market.

Simsar: your horses are very nice, no question. Are they suitable for the American hunters...not sure without seeing them in the flesh. The first grey is quite nice, but again, I have to see it move to give you an honest opinion. I would have to see the younger horse at an older stage to give a idea if he would suit the market.

Once again, I don't care one way or the other and I'm not out to convince anyone the American hunters are better than the UK/Irish ones. Like I said in the original post: US hunters are unique to America. That is why there is little market for the 'happy hackers' there. 

Ballyshan: I found your horse on USEF. I can tell you whatever you would like to know. Just PM me when you have a chance with your questions. Looks like he is doing pretty well should be proud of him!


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## Ladylina83 (14 April 2010)

Simsar said:



			DRS the second video (grey horse) looks and goes very similar to a Working Hunter my Mrs bred 10 years ago who was out of a TB mare by an ID stallion, I see what you mean about them being refined but you can get an ID/TB like that, I was just pointing out that when referring to the BRF stud and there stallions, they would cross well to make your hunter types. I understand what you are saying about the market in the USA but just trying to stick with my theory about not HAVING to use continental breeds. 

This is the ID/TB who I referred to above, I will try and find a pic of him moving











Click to expand...

Oh I have to say this is a LOVELY looking horse !! I hope my baby turns out like this - RID to a ConnX TB mare in my opinion it doesn't get much better.

Amazing thread by the way - this has clearly evoked some brilliant discussion.


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## rebel mountain (14 April 2010)

no nothing about hunting so going back to eothain's post you talk about top young sires like mickey finn and cara touche.what about luidam I know he is not that young and correct me if i am wrong but he sounds very promising


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## Eothain (14 April 2010)

I'm a big Luidam fan. I'm tossing a coin between him and Ars Vivendi for my Duca Di Busted mare next year. I'd use one of them this year but I'm going to use Ireland's officially most under rated sire: Puissance.
I've wanted to use Luidam since August 6th 2004. He has some nice horses jumping already like Luikka and Foxglen Cruise Control so hopefully he'll transmit that to our horses too.

I know he was hobdayed as a young horse, but I can close one eye to that. Why? ... August 6th 2004, that's why!


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## DKL (14 April 2010)

Eothain said:



			These Grange Bouncer types have nothing to contribute to Irish breeding, draught or sport horse. Thats a simple fact. We have had no stallions other than Cruising and Touchdown capable of holding their as sires and competitors. Good sires like Errigal Flight and Puissance have no stallion sons, which is a crime. Stallions like Coevers Diamond Boy and Clover Brigade have been slightly disappointing in terms of the number of good horses they've sired.
		
Click to expand...

You left out "to your standards"....I would not like to see you in the same room as Grange Bouncers owner Jack but if there is one thing that you would hopefully walk away with would be the word respect. I guess one does not learn everything in seminars and books.... Grange Bouncer will have his largest numbers this year on the ground of competing four year olds and the same next year with some in the US. The next several years will be the best way to _judge_ him and his prodigy if you seem so fit AND able to do so. 

My husband on Grange Bouncer with his father Jack on Killinick Rebel half brother to Grange Bouncer


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## Eothain (14 April 2010)

DKL said:



			You left out "to your standards"....I would not like to see you in the same room as Grange Bouncer&#8217;s owner Jack but if there is one thing that you would hopefully walk away with would be the word respect. I guess one does not learn everything in seminars and books.... Grange Bouncer will have his largest numbers this year on the ground of competing four year olds and the same next year with some in the US. The next several years will be the best way to _judge_ him and his prodigy if you seem so fit AND able to do so. 

My husband on Grange Bouncer with his father Jack on Killinick Rebel half brother to Grange Bouncer
		
Click to expand...

You are absolutely right. At the start of this entire thread, I may have been overly negative and abrasive towards some horses in some peoople's eyes. I can see how you'd think that but, I can assure you, I wasn't knocking the horse, I wasn't putting him down or anything of the sort. I merely said, that I don't honestly think these are the horses that will produce Olympic standard showjumpers.
Now, there's not going to be a row here but I will say this, I respect everybody in this business who have been successful in finding their place in the market, so let's not hypothesize about me learning the word respect, because it's already there. I don't know how much of this you've read but if you had held your comment for a while, you would have seen me say how I feel that to their credit, Huntingfield Rebel and Grange Bouncer are among the best the Irish Draught breed have at the moment.
Read my other comments. You'll see how I think they have their place and how the horses that people want for everyday leisure riding will probably be sired by these horses.

When you've read _all_ that I had to say, you can come back and tell me if I'm such a bad fella with a lack of respect. Judge me then, you seem fit and willing to do so.


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## DKL (14 April 2010)

Eothain said:



			You are absolutely right. Thank you kind sire. At the start of this entire thread, I may have been overly negative and abrasive towards some horses in some peoople's eyes. I can see how you'd think that but, I can assure you, I wasn't knocking the horse, I wasn't putting him down or anything of the sort. I merely said, that I don't honestly think these are the horses that will produce Olympic standard showjumpers. Depends on who is riding them...
Now, there's not going to be a row here but I will say this, I respect everybody in this business who have been successful in finding their place in the market, so let's not hypothesize about me learning the word respect, because it's already there. I don't know how much of this you've read but if you had held your comment for a while, you would have seen me say how I feel that to their credit, Huntingfield Rebel and Grange Bouncer are among the best the Irish Draught breed have at the moment.  No row from me as I enjoyed the thread and I have read it in it's entirety thus my comments as respect is earned and not preached. While I do hear what you are trying to convery in this discussion it should not be done by knocking the *breeder*.... never mind the horse. Read my other comments. You'll see how I think they have their place and how the horses that people want for everyday leisure riding will probably be sired by these horses.

When you've read all that I had to say, you can come back and tell me if I'm such a bad fella with a lack of respect. Judge me then, you seem fit and willing to do so.
		
Click to expand...

 No negativity from me but I am sure folks will love to hear that eventing or showjumping is considering "leisure riding"...what is a jaunt in the woods called then to you....?


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## rebel mountain (14 April 2010)

glad to hear your going to puissance are you looking for a colt or a filly


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## Simsar (14 April 2010)

A massive hello and welcome to DKL, a fellow Prospect Pride supporter!!


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## Eothain (14 April 2010)

When did I call showjumping or eventing, lesiure riding? If you mean people who go to shows to jump around and have the craic at local shows and the like then in my mind, they are the grass roots. The leisure market. The people who don't need horses giving them hassle because they've to go to work the next day etc. The horses jumping around 1.30s and 1.40s however are a different kettle of fish.

I'm a showjumper myself and know difficult it is to find good horses. Hell, two of my three best horses were pulled off a lorry heading to the factory. I took a major gamble on them but had I not and had it not paid off, then only god knows what kind of yak I'd be trying to build a career off!

What do I consider a jaunt in the woods? ... A waste of time!!! Again, not for me!

If I'm knocking breeders, it's because I feel they have got to stand up and be accountable for their decisions. When things began to turn downhill for Irish breeding, people blamed the warmbloods coming in to the coountry. From what I've gathered talking to different people, things were heading downhill before the foreign stallions ever came to play with our mares.

And Rebel Mountain, I don't mind what I get by him. I'd prefer a colt to retain entire because for a horse of his calibre who has had horses compete at 4* level eventing and 5* level showjumping to not have a stallion son or ten is an absolute disgrace.

I know that Hutchinsons have a 4 year old stallion by him who is a full brother to the mare Lee Ann who jumped 1.40m in Switzerland before coming back here to jump. He's Puissance x Kings Servant. My mare is Duca Di Busted x Laughton's Flight, and among other things, finished top of her group when she was assessed as a premier mare, so hopefully Puissance should cross well with her.


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## DKL (14 April 2010)

Thank you Simsar for the warm welcome.

Eothain I understand now your leisure market comment. We are speaking different languages but I basically 1) didn't agree with you and 2) didn't care for your approach. I respect what you think the way  future breeding should go as everyone is entitled to an opinion.  I commend you for pulling two horses off a lorry heading to the factory. I also 100% agree with your statement _If I'm knocking breeders, it's because I feel they have got to stand up and be accountable for their decisions_ but though I hold it in the light of the overbreeding/population problem seen now all over the worldespecially in the US (I am in the US). There is a tremendous amount of poor quality breeding over here but I would never hold the Grange Bouncer line in this category.  Again I took offense to the Grange Bouncer b/c he has produced many top quality animals of all disciplines and I as some said already here was/is one of the only RID to compete at the upper levels.


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## Eothain (14 April 2010)

Ok, the only reason Grange Bouncer even came up is because of an inside joke between myself and tiny trigger.



TinyTrigger said:



			I echo this. While I think that new bloodlines/improvement are always welcome I really hope measures are put in place to preserve the type of ISH's that made Ireland famous. I would really hate to see the ISH become "just" (I don't say that lightly) another type of European WB. We have a speciality.. a niche in the market.. a USP, if you want, and it would be a terrible, terrible, shame to loose it. 

Eothain.. Stallions/Lines such as Grange Bouncer should not be lost to purely WB breeding.. 

Click to expand...

That post is from the very first page. She stopped posting way back at page 2 of this. Basically, I know her off the forum and she is a huge Grange Bouncer fan. Always talking about how easy they are to sell and work with etc. That's why his name came up in the first place and trust me, if I could go back and edit the wording of my original posts, I would.

I may not breed a mare to him, but if I came across a horse by him at the right price that I could school up and sell on, then I would. The real world has to co-exist with aspirations. I wouldn't be one for cutting off my nose to spite my face.

Having said that, when Cian O'Connor is looking for a replacement for Complete and Rancorrado, I doubt the horse he chooses will be sired by an Irish Draught. The money that is spent on whatever that horse may be will be money spent outside of our country, away from our breeders. Spending like that, in turn leads to over production because breeders like seeing the foal on the ground every year, but would be less inclined to use the better stallions if they can't sell them. So what do they do? Annoyed by the price of the covering fee they spent on the Nations Cup winner they used the year before, they bring their mare to some cheap useless stallion that's local. Geldings with balls I call them.

They have a foal, bring it to Ballinasloe or a fair like it, make a few hundred, super! What happens the foal then? It goes from fair to fair being dragged around like a disobidient dog, getting steadily poorer in condition as it matures. Then we have the welfare case of the horse found dead in an abandoned housing estate or something of the sort.

Basically what I'm saying has been covered in my long post 2 pages ago about creating an improved economic Sport Horse breeding sector. Improve the value of the sector, welfare increases with it, overproduction becomes less of a problem.

... Wow. Somebody joined an internet forum to, for lack of a better term, have a go at me. Wow! I guess there's the proof that this topic is thought provoking


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## Eothain (15 April 2010)

One other thing ... Where's Hilly?


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## Irishlife (15 April 2010)

Right treading delicately into the thread again.

Twiddling wireless knobs to resume normal service.

I am a great admirer of Clew Bay Bouncer who will hopefully gain his full approval this week, he is a credit to his dad.

I have not heard news yet from Cavan but I am hoping that the full results of the inspections and the scoring/comments will be in a PDF somewhere as I am still undecided on one of my mares and might take a gamble on a newly approved boy.

I do think the new inspection process will bring great improvements to both draughts and sporthorses. We have to call them Class1 Gold, Silver and Bronze now instead of RID and assorted grades in between. I do "get" where some draught breeders are coming from regarding the performance aspect but I think the scope and parameters for merits are wide enough that a stallion who may not be jumping 1.30 can still get Gold merit on his progeny whatever the discipline. Also one thing the draughts have always been good at is supplying information that allows you on paper to "test mate" your bloodlines. There is talk of an online module becoming available which would be fab.

The Young Breeder's Competition in Ireland has been doing "the triangle" and linear scoring of conformation since its inception so it is a good learning ground for young people who want to be involved in breeding and judging. 

I still refer back to a previous comment I made insofar as some horse just have "IT" and all the linear scoring and performance testing cannot cater fr that, although we hope our new young stallions have got a bit of wow factor.


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## hilly (15 April 2010)

_claps hand to forehead _

Bound to end in tears before bedtime - I'll be back to deal with you and your co-conspirator (over the Big Fugly Heads/marketing machine comments, Eothain. 


Was away at Cavan - the stallions that were provisionally passed have a 2-week wait for blood tests to come back so won't jump the gun just yet by naming names. 

Didn't see Clew Bay Bouncer listed either online or in the catalogue IL? However, there was one handsome dapple grey Draught who certainly jumped well and 'met the criteria' on the day. Some Draughts were mediocre jumpers but so also it has to be said were some very well-bred sporthorses, which had all the paper credentials.

What's greatly amusing me is the dapple grey was by .. Grange Bouncer.


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## Eothain (15 April 2010)

Want to know something ironic? The grey ID stallion by Gortlea Ruler out of the Huntingfield Ruler mare that finished with the top marks was taught to loose jump by ... me!!!

Tears? What tears?

As for the marketing machine comments (I prefer to call it economic viability of the sport horse breeding sector), please don't keep me waiting. I'm looking forward to them. I'm guessing we'll be sparring again soon!!!


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## firm (15 April 2010)

Eothain Just to keep you v happy Oli T is riding a good Irish grey by Cruising and I am sure H&H or somewhere reported he was at Cavan last year buying horses with someone, including a Cruising colt

Looking forward to hearing the stallion report and could someone pls explain the gold, silver etc grades and what the horses had to do thanks


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## Irishlife (15 April 2010)

Hilly - was looking at wrong catalogue - Duh!!!! Clew Bay Bouncer - nice chap.

Spent the evening taking little TB to the "stallion down the road" LOL who happens to be a Class 1 Connemara called Drymills Bridge Boy who is big upstanding and looks like an Andalusian he is so fab. Decided to breed teenagers dream machine/working hunter/SHP instead of a sportster or ID X from her this time.
Back to cover again on Saturday so fingers crossed.  As is usual spent ages looking at different stallions/colts youngstock etc yakking and gossiping but also looking at the most fabulous stallion-in-waiting a 2yo Crosstown Dancer who seems to have what it takes, he was very impressive so look forward to seeing him at inspections next time.

A neighbours ID stallion got a Class 2 at Cavan, he told me so they are not too impressed and said they thought the loose jumping was a bit too intense reckoned the horse had to go down the lane nine times but I think they are just so disappointed. Didn't give any clues as to why he did not pass. 

Firm 

http://www.horsesportireland.ie/hsi-publications.102.html

This link will take you to excerpts from the new inspection process and how the gold silver bronze categories are defined. Also the new breeding policy for the Irish Draught is there too.


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## DKL (16 April 2010)

hilly said:



_claps hand to forehead _

Bound to end in tears before bedtime - I'll be back to deal with you and your co-conspirator (over the Big Fugly Heads/marketing machine comments, Eothain. 


Was away at Cavan - the stallions that were provisionally passed have a 2-week wait for blood tests to come back so won't jump the gun just yet by naming names. 

Didn't see Clew Bay Bouncer listed either online or in the catalogue IL? However, there was one handsome dapple grey Draught who certainly jumped well and 'met the criteria' on the day. Some Draughts were mediocre jumpers but so also it has to be said were some very well-bred sporthorses, which had all the paper credentials.

What's greatly amusing me is the dapple grey was by .. Grange Bouncer. 

Click to expand...


Hi hilly - That was Killinick Bouncer that passed. Here he is from the H & H artilcle and I am trying to find pictures of him online at the young eventers....http://webpages.charter.net/stickyback/Killinick%20Bouncer.jpg


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## gadetra (16 April 2010)

Hello everybody I have beeen following this thread with great interestand thought I'd finally post my two cents! This is alo my first foray into forum-ness so here goes!
I have to agree with Eothain that the ISH does need some outside blood. The fact of the matter is we are simply not achieving what we need to and we can't live on past glorys anymore.
I do think that we need to be very very selective over what we allow to be let in. There is a glut of uproven, second-rate foreign blood being jumped on by undiscerning Irish breeders for the past few years and I believe we need to be waaay more selective. In my opinion the Selle Francais is the best option for outside blood as they are number 1 in the showjumping studbook rankings, have a brain and similar levels of blood as the Irish horse and seem to suit the Irish mare (see Touchdown and Harlequin Du Carel).
I do, however believe we need to treasure and preserve our 'bread and butter' types. There is still a market for these (just about!) but their quality has dramatically fallen during boom times.
Crossing the country I see far far too many big headed, weak necked, croup high 'fugly' things born out of no fault of their own. The lure of the commercially 'fashionable' stallion has wreacked havoc amongst our treasured asset and instead of taking their mares to a stallion that suits them, these mares are being taken to a name (see huntingfield rebel) that does not suit their type. This has to stop. I would never take one of my mares to a stallion that didn't suit them no matter how 'hot' he was. And you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear either...
On the eventing side, I have to say it is certainly not a happy accident the ISH studbook has topped the rankings for the last 14 years but I think our hold on that title is becoming ever more tenuous with every passing year. Those good, strong TB stallions that founded our success are not being replaced. I find it hard to spot a good old fashioned strong NH Tb stallion available to the sporthorse sector, only a lot of light failed sprinter types, unsuitable in my opinion both tempermentally and physically for eventing.
I would hate to see the Irish horse lose it's brain-it is one of the if not it's greatest asset. My young ones spend part of their lives on rough old scrub and have to cross ditches, drains, wet and rocky land daily. This has to contribute to their surefooted brainyness as mine will cross any country over any going!! The cotton wool wrapping of generations of warmbloods has to have had an effect on their ability to handle ground and life in gereral-although I'm loathe to say it I bred one absolutely brainless ISH-not a drop of foreigh blood in him-but he was the exception not the rule bless him. (He's now eventing in England they constantly surprise you!).
Finally, good luck in your future take over of the IHB Eothain-you have my vote!!


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## Irishlife (16 April 2010)

Concur with a lot of what you said and won't go into repetition mode as I have said it all from my perspective in earlier posts.

Selle Francais - agree.

Breeding became a hobby during the now deceased tiger for people who did not know much about horses let alone breeding. A lot of stallion owners and dealers took advantage and covered and sold poor stock to a lot of people for inflated prices, charging inflated covering fees producing a lot of the scrubs that are seen around the place. Completely indiscriminate.

Lacking the right type of TB - Agreed, so much more could be done to improve the mare pool with stallions of the old NH stamp. Too many people "buy the dream" and do not realise the mare is the most important pat of the equation.

Hardiness and soundness, both traits inherent in most Irish horses. This will get bred out with the randomness of crosses that have happened of late. Most foreign studbooks have identified inherited unsoundness traits in their studbooks (eg predisposition to navicular). There is not enough data or consistency to do this for the ISH.

So there is Eothain's route, the Warmblood Stud Books route and the Irish horse route - Interesting times.


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## rebel mountain (16 April 2010)

i agree with you the sf is in my opinion the best foreign bred out there however everystudbook can't be filled with superstars not every horse in the irish studbook is cruising so when some of you talk about dum blood's you could only be talk about the dirt the foreign stud books didn't want


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## hilly (16 April 2010)

DKL - yes, that's the one and took his pic to add to my archives. But please, no Photoshopped pics of Draughts allegedly jumping obstacles - Draughts can't jump. 

Make my day by telling me that Killinick Rebel is by the other 'maligned' Draught, Huntingfield Rebel? 

All jesting aside, Jack Lambert has forgotten more about Irish horses than most will ever learn. He and another very similar gentleman, Sam Barr, should be cloned.

Irishlife - phew, if it wasn't puzzling enough to see pictures of Draughts allegedly jumping then to wonder why CBB would have to return for further auditions after he was fully approved last year under the old system. There's enough bewilderment in this entire thread without you and DKL adding to it. 

Although the new-look inspections will take time for breeders to become accustomed to, feel they are an improvement. While it might sting to hear your hometown Swan is perhaps more Gander material, between the giant scoreboard and comments read out by the relevant chairperson of either Draught or Sporthorse panel it was made very evident on the day how and where horses failed to meet the required points. 

Perhaps the neighbours could ask for a copy of their boy's scores/comments instead? 

The stallion down the road? Off to the Tower with you ..  Or else a night's penance at the EarnestBreedersR'Us convention? As I too have similarly sinned, I shall keep you a seat down the back and bring a couple of HellOk! magazines as back-up entertainment. If I keep the volume down, we can also watch Hickstead Derby - The Kilbaha Years on my DVD thingy. 

Firm, that would be the Rolex-bound Ashdale Cruise Master. And  Team Oli did indeed buy a number of foals and was interested in buying a certain Irish stallion. Not a Draught. (  heresy) Not a warmblood. A Thoroughbred. 

Eothain. Spar? I'm too bewildered to spar with you  and confess to giving up several pages back trying to follow the latest Cumano/Cougar/Cruising/Puissance preferences.   And now you're like a 3yo caught up in a lungerein trying to unwind the Irish Draught remarks, least said, soonest mended. 

Actually it was Ballyshan who made the Fugly heads/marketing machine comments that I intended to respond to. But it shall have to wait! We are off to the World Cup final shortly with several Swiss Rolls (Centra ones, not Spar) as a bribe, I mean, present, to entice Nelson Pessoa out of retirement with. We in the BBC Syndicate intend to source an Irish Draught stallion for the great Brazilian to campaign but fret not, your masterly training skills have been duly noted and should our Draught also require pre-training prior, we may call on you. 

(Alec, I do have a more serious reply on the 'future'  to post and will do so as soon as the demands of looking at photoshopped jumping Draughts and Googling the location of all Spar shops in Co Offaly for Eothain to entertain himself in, allow.  )


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## DKL (16 April 2010)

hilly you crack me up. Here is another ID Bouncer stud jumping with Jack's daughter Clare http://webpages.charter.net/stickyback/Clare%20Lambert%20on%204%20yearold%20ID%20colt%20Killinick%20Trump.jpg

Jack is amazing and his daughters are equally talented in the horse industry . His son over here in the states (my husband) used to ride/race (point to points) but now does "leisure riding" as defined by Eothain a couple pages back. We just imported a GB baby over. The yanks eat the Irish horses up if I don't say so myself! The ISH's are very 'in' right now. 

Yup Killinick Rebel is by Huntingfield Rebel...I can just see Eothain eye's rolling... Just having some fun with you and enjoying reading this thread.


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## Irishlife (16 April 2010)

Hilly 

I will bring the bag of bon bons for us to chew on whilst watching the Hickstead Derby re runs in Earnest Breeders r us purgatory.  

And excuse you if there is any luring out of retirement to be done regarding Nelson Pessoa I am coming too. I think I could have an "edge" on account of having gazed adoringly into his eyes backstage at HOYS as a gawky pony rider, while getting his autograph (he has a very Latino flourish!). I have retained a "soft spot" down the years and Rodrigo not bad either if a bit more girly than dad.   Yes if anyone can put IDs back on the map it is Nelson. I would say he would be honoured. There again this is the man who thought Baloubet de Rouet was rubbish first time he saw him jump.

The neighbours won't reveal the points so will have to resort to subterfuge!!!!


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## Simsar (16 April 2010)

Says quietly Guess what, I'm using the stallion down the road this year too Going to use Primo Pageant on a couple of good TB mares and try to breed that illusive HIS type colt.

Got all the Billy stallions next door too but can't do the warmblood thing out of principle!!

Irishlife I would be interested too hear more on the Crosstown Dancer colt.

Simon


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## Maesfen (16 April 2010)

Simsar said:



Says quietly Guess what, I'm using the stallion down the road this year too Going to use Primo Pageant on a couple of good TB mares and try to breed that illusive HIS type colt.
		
Click to expand...

PP and Bea, mmmnnnnnn, that would be nice


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## Irishlife (16 April 2010)

Whispering not so quietly. The beautiful Primo Pageant used to stand "down the road" from me in Irish mile terms.  I have seen some terrific stock by him.
Very good horse.

Will gather more info and a picture of the Crosstown Dancer, He is the most delicious, dark almost smokey liver chestnut, fabulous bone and a very straight mover. His temperament is impeccable. He is in the rough out at grass at the moment but will scrub up well.


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## Simsar (16 April 2010)

MFH9 said:



			PP and Bea, mmmnnnnnn, that would be nice

Click to expand...


Gave Primo a pat earlier today.
LOL Lottery tonight! x


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## Simsar (16 April 2010)

MFH9 said:



			PP and Bea, mmmnnnnnn, that would be nice

Click to expand...




Irishlife said:



			Whispering not so quietly. The beautiful Primo Pageant used to stand "down the road" from me in Irish mile terms.  I have seen some terrific stock by him.
Very good horse.

Will gather more info and a picture of the Crosstown Dancer, He is the most delicious, dark almost smokey liver chestnut, fabulous bone and a very straight mover. His temperament is impeccable. He is in the rough out at grass at the moment but will scrub up well.
		
Click to expand...

Sarah can spot a Crosstown from 100ft!


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## Eothain (16 April 2010)

Ok, literally about to run out the door so this'll be quick.

Why have I all of a sudden seemed to have been turned into the "bad guy" of the thread? I'm not trying to unwind any remarks I made. I stand over what I said. I very much doubt that we will see Olympic level showjumpers sired by Irish Draughts in the middle to near future. I see no point in having an opinion and not expressing it where it's relevant. Once again, I am not trying to unwind any comments.

Cumano/Cougar/Cruising/Puissance preferances? All I'm saying, is that I think by crossing a warmblood stallion of merit to a good quality mare, getting a filly and crossing that back to another good warmblood we will get the quality fillies we need to make the best use of the good younger jumping stallions that I keep naming, Cara Touche, Samjemgee, Oldtown KC, Cruisings MF, Ringfort Cruise and the eventual young stallions by the likes of Puissance, Errigal Flight, Coevers Diamond, Clover Brigade. In my honest opinion, for what it's worth, although anything I seem to have said is just being ridiculed, we will create a better gene pool from which our showjumpers will re-emerge as the best in the world.


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## Simsar (16 April 2010)

Have a good evening don't drink to much speak soon.


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## rebel mountain (16 April 2010)

question on what eothain said in his last post [this could be a stupid question]who are samjemgee and oldtown KC


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## Simsar (16 April 2010)

Just read my last post and realised it came across as bitchy and just wanted to say it wasn't meant that way


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## Eothain (17 April 2010)

Don't worry. Didn't take it up as being bitchy. ... Who said I was going drinking? That stuff is bad for you!

Samjemgee is an 8 year old stallion by the Belgian warmblood Ramiro B out of Flex. Making him a half brother of Flexible and Flexing. He won the 7 Year Old class in Dublin last year and has placed in the Chippison Spring Grand Prix Tour. Approved in 2009

Oldtown KC is ridden by Trevor Breen and is by Cruising out of the 1.50 Winning Mare, Oldtown Katie by Clover Fields. He's just a 6 year old I think. Also approved in 2009.

Interestingly enough, these are the last 2 ISH stallions approved under the old scheme


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## rebel mountain (17 April 2010)

well with young ish's like them coming up and irish draught's like classic vision and coille mor hill and tb's like watermill swatch do we not have the raw materials to build a good studbook


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## AddyKan (17 April 2010)

I just wanted to say, like many others I've found this thread fascinating.   Even down to learning about american hunters!!

I've just started breeding ( you have to start somewhere I guess!!) and am waiting for my second foal.  I've one warmblood mare (german) and my second mare( who was my first ever foal)  is out of  Irish tb dam and warmblood sire.  I did lots of umming and ahhing about stallions.  I did think about Oldtown KC and Carmina Z but have opted for warmblood stallions for both my mares.

I'm a Brit living now in Ireland and this thread has certainly got me thinking about irish blood lines!  Lots of food for thought when it comes to looking for stallions next year!

Thanks guys!  Keep all the info/disscussion coming it makes great reading!


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## Eothain (17 April 2010)

rebel mountain said:



			well with young ish's like them coming up and irish draught's like classic vision and coille mor hill and tb's like watermill swatch do we not have the raw materials to build a good studbook
		
Click to expand...

In my opinion, we run a big risk of squandering them by having a poorer quality mare population. If they were crossed with a better mare, then they might set the country alight. That's where the Ars Vivendi's, the Cornet Obolensky's, the Luidam's, Heritage Fortunus's, Mermus R's and Condios's come into plan. Quality foreign lines should be used to hopefully make the mare herd superior than what it is.


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## htobago (17 April 2010)

Simsar said:



Says quietly Guess what, I'm using the stallion down the road this year too Going to use Primo Pageant on a couple of good TB mares and try to breed that illusive HIS type colt.

Got all the Billy stallions next door too but can't do the warmblood thing out of principle!!

Irishlife I would be interested too hear more on the Crosstown Dancer colt.

Simon

Click to expand...

LOL - nothing wrong with using 'the stallion down the road'....if you happen to live on the right road!


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## Simsar (18 April 2010)

Yeah but our road is Billy Stud horses!!  Want to live in Ireland or Newmarket!!!!!


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## GrassHorse (18 April 2010)

Ive been looking at old footage recently of Irish showjumpers. Exciting stuff! But how would they compete today? Answer, they would'nt stand a chance! I was talking to a friend recently and he said when they started raising the height of the fences in the late 80s early 90s, alot of the Irish horses couldn't do it. He said that Rocbarton " wouldn't even look at them" It was then he realized that the Irish Draught had no place in the breeding of showjumpers. A forward thinker!


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## amjo (18 April 2010)

Eothain said:



			Under the new system, stallions approved on the IHR can have their approval taken away if they're not up to the job of producing proper top class horses. Fair play to Alison Corbally, she's put heart and soul in to her job and has moved the whole breeding policy forward. She has met with staunch opposition from those stuck-in-1975-Irish Draught breeders but has stuck to her guns and hopefully we will see positive results. The traffic light system is actually quite good. Simple but good. Don't write it off just yet. There was no bigger critic of it than me at the start but it has since won me over.

As for the 'good irish names', well with the exception of a small few stallions, including the best of all time in Cruising, Ireland hasn't produced any top class stallions, now we have access to better quality stallions, we can be competitive again. No one bats an eeyelid when a French thoroughbred is used, so what's wrong with using a French sport horse? Nothing!
		
Click to expand...

Finally someone talking sense, but I am still not too convinced about new HSI stallion approval system.  Same people doing the job up there, things are not going to change a lot.  The '1975 crew' still have big say!. Of course we need to use better horses, which happen to not be Irish, we have hardly any decent Irish stallions since Cruising.  But the biggest problem in Ireland is the lack of knowledge regarding the other breeds.  They think if the stallions stand in another country then it must be good.. lot of ****.. Plenty good stallions now standing in Ireland, and plenty useless stallions standing in all countries, incl ireland. Breeders just need to to know which is which!!


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## Eothain (18 April 2010)

gadetra said:



			Hello everybody I have beeen following this thread with great interestand thought I'd finally post my two cents! This is alo my first foray into forum-ness so here goes!
I have to agree with Eothain that the ISH does need some outside blood. The fact of the matter is we are simply not achieving what we need to and we can't live on past glorys anymore.
I do think that we need to be very very selective over what we allow to be let in. There is a glut of uproven, second-rate foreign blood being jumped on by undiscerning Irish breeders for the past few years and I believe we need to be waaay more selective. In my opinion the Selle Francais is the best option for outside blood as they are number 1 in the showjumping studbook rankings, have a brain and similar levels of blood as the Irish horse and seem to suit the Irish mare (see Touchdown and Harlequin Du Carel).
I do, however believe we need to treasure and preserve our 'bread and butter' types. There is still a market for these (just about!) but their quality has dramatically fallen during boom times.
Crossing the country I see far far too many big headed, weak necked, croup high 'fugly' things born out of no fault of their own. The lure of the commercially 'fashionable' stallion has wreacked havoc amongst our treasured asset and instead of taking their mares to a stallion that suits them, these mares are being taken to a name (see huntingfield rebel) that does not suit their type. This has to stop. I would never take one of my mares to a stallion that didn't suit them no matter how 'hot' he was. And you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear either...
On the eventing side, I have to say it is certainly not a happy accident the ISH studbook has topped the rankings for the last 14 years but I think our hold on that title is becoming ever more tenuous with every passing year. Those good, strong TB stallions that founded our success are not being replaced. I find it hard to spot a good old fashioned strong NH Tb stallion available to the sporthorse sector, only a lot of light failed sprinter types, unsuitable in my opinion both tempermentally and physically for eventing.
I would hate to see the Irish horse lose it's brain-it is one of the if not it's greatest asset. My young ones spend part of their lives on rough old scrub and have to cross ditches, drains, wet and rocky land daily. This has to contribute to their surefooted brainyness as mine will cross any country over any going!! The cotton wool wrapping of generations of warmbloods has to have had an effect on their ability to handle ground and life in gereral-although I'm loathe to say it I bred one absolutely brainless ISH-not a drop of foreigh blood in him-but he was the exception not the rule bless him. (He's now eventing in England they constantly surprise you!).
Finally, good luck in your future take over of the IHB Eothain-you have my vote!!
		
Click to expand...

Welcome! Good to see a Longford representitive on the forum. Longford, the place that gave us Rincoola Abu, Will Wimble, Cara Touche and the one they call, the Maestro; Eddie Macken! How many Irish bred horses has Mr Macken ridden in recent years? I dare say none since Cruising himself! And he didn't ride too many Irish horses in the years coming up to his acquisition of Cruising either! He had a bunch of Belgian horses with truly awful names!!!
As for taking over the IHB, we'll see about that. Have ran twice. Will go again next year. It's my final chance to be the youngest person elected to the board. Tristan Kingston holds the record at 26. I'll be 24.
I don't think Ireland's hold over the Eventing rankings has altogether been an accident but I do think that it wasn't entirely by design either.



Irishlife said:



			So there is Eothain's route, the Warmblood Stud Books route and the Irish horse route - Interesting times.
		
Click to expand...

Didn't see this. Managed to glance over it somehow!!! Why thank you! I'm like a studbook all on my own. (For the record, what exactly is my route?)
Let's not forget to put the SIES in to the equation too. I can see a decent take up of their studbook. There's so many people who have been annoyed by the HSI/IHB.
I'd say there'll be a bigger take up of them than the WSI because the WSI requires a more disciplined approach. Therein lies the weakness of WSI becoming a massive studbook. Irish people can't do discipline.



Simsar said:



			Yeah but our road is Billy Stud horses!!  Want to live in Ireland or Newmarket!!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Want to swap? I'd love to have Billy Congo down the road!



GrassHorse said:



			Ive been looking at old footage recently of Irish showjumpers. Exciting stuff! But how would they compete today? Answer, they would'nt stand a chance! I was talking to a friend recently and he said when they started raising the height of the fences in the late 80s early 90s, alot of the Irish horses couldn't do it. He said that Rocbarton " wouldn't even look at them" It was then he realized that the Irish Draught had no place in the breeding of showjumpers. A forward thinker!
		
Click to expand...

Run! Hide! When people see what you have said, they'll want blood, they'll want to burn you at the stake! Run!


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## AddyKan (19 April 2010)

Hi Eothain,
Does the SIES have a website?  I had a search but couldn't come up with anything?


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## Simsar (19 April 2010)

Eothain there at the end of our drive and ride him through quite regularly, nice looking horse but still a WARMBLOOD (or as William told Sarah a High-bred).

Grasshorse run for the hills were all coming for you with our pitch forks!!


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## GrassHorse (19 April 2010)

The Irish draught is backed under the cart! Im ready to hit the road!


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## firm (19 April 2010)

LOL  Grasshorse   
What about this Irish horse from the 90's?  You don't think he could win today?
What was his breeding, was he by Coevers? and  did he have any sisters/family go on?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JljBBBiMqcw

I even heard people not from Ireland say he was one of the best SJs ever!


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## GrassHorse (19 April 2010)

Wow! thanks for the link. I really enjoyed that!
Thats the kind of horse we should be breeding. He would be able to compete today. But he was by Coevers? Coevers was a great TB stallion!. Tell me about the relations of this horse?


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## Irishlife (19 April 2010)

A typical flukey quirky Irish horse and don't we love them!

He was by Coevers out of an Irish mare with only the sire of the dam known another TB called JAB. Would not mind betting the mare's damline was draught or half bred. Maybe someone else will know.

A difficult ride would pretty much jump you off with that hindquarter action, but then Peppermill has a tendency to jump you off with the power he has too so his connections say.


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## Irishlife (19 April 2010)

Eothain

By your route I meant breeding out to get the right foundation mares first before breeding back to the Irish superstar young stallions. Which is exactly what I have done with one mare (although I will never abandon my Irish horses).  I have the filly I want who I hope will breed performers but I am not convinced that breeding back to Irish stallions would improve or reduce the chances of the offspring overall. I have time enough to ponder it anyway and also monitor some of these bright young stallion hopes.

I am a little bit perplexed by all the different stud books emerging. I think it sums it up when you said we do not have the discipline for the rigidity of WSI. Therefore by definition does it not mean we will go to the studbook that will have us?  Likely IHR?  There is a bit of lemming mentality and the Irish Draught society split as not helped one bit. Rumours are now abounding that if the passport does not have the IHR horseshoe stamp - it isn't a draught. Flipping heck its all gone to hell in a handcart and that is before we touch on the horses themselves! Will the IHR end up as a dumping ground for the stallions that could not pass in SEIS or WSI? 

The market potential is greater for stallion owners with SEIS and after all it is within the spirit of the EU to have a Euro studbook.

The new studbooks mean we have more choice when it comes to choosing stallions so will the Irish horse become ever more diluted?

A lot of good work has been done by the IHR and just as they are getting with the programme, there are different options.

I do not know how the panel of inspectors was made up, but I think it would be helpful if it were multi national as sporthorse wise there is quite a bit of difference between "type" depending on warmblood, TB etc so a good TB man or woman may not be so hot on a warmblood.  We can all spot a good horse at 100 paces but there are intrinsic differences between "types" so I would say you need subject matter experts with pretty broad knowledge.

I do not know who was on the panel for inspections, but they are every bit as important and influential as the new testing model.  How were they appointed to the panel, what are their qualifications to be there.  

Only asking...... but have booked a spot on the last Irish Draught and wagon out of town if heretic comment has been made


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## hilly (19 April 2010)

DKL said:



			hilly you crack me up. Here is another ID Bouncer stud jumping with Jack's daughter Clare http://webpages.charter.net/stickyback/Clare%20Lambert%20on%204%20yearold%20ID%20colt%20Killinick%20Trump.jpg

Jack is amazing and his daughters are equally talented in the horse industry . His son over here in the states (my husband) used to ride/race (point to points) but now does "leisure riding" as defined by Eothain a couple pages back. We just imported a GB baby over. The yanks eat the Irish horses up if I don't say so myself! The ISH's are very 'in' right now. 

Yup Killinick Rebel is by Huntingfield Rebel...I can just see Eothain eye's rolling... Just having some fun with you and enjoying reading this thread.
		
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Another fake photo.  Admit it, the chestnut is really just popping an 18" cross-pole on the way back to the end of the ride at the local riding school. NOT that there is anything wrong with such a career - "a job for every horse". 

And you've Photoshopped one of the best young event horse producers into the pic too, 10/10.   Good to hear more 'on the spot' feedback about Irish horse's popularity in the States, there seems to be some sort of converse law that the further owners are away from this island, the more they think of their Irish 'souvenir'. 

Have also dealt with the US show vs field hunter issue in a reply to Alec, which now needs tweaking after the events of the past week. 



Irishlife said:



			Hilly 

I will bring the bag of bon bons for us to chew on whilst watching the Hickstead Derby re runs in Earnest Breeders r us purgatory.  

And excuse you if there is any luring out of retirement to be done regarding Nelson Pessoa I am coming too. I think I could have an "edge" on account of having gazed adoringly into his eyes backstage at HOYS as a gawky pony rider, while getting his autograph (he has a very Latino flourish!). I have retained a "soft spot" down the years and Rodrigo not bad either if a bit more girly than dad.   Yes if anyone can put IDs back on the map it is Nelson. I would say he would be honoured. There again this is the man who thought Baloubet de Rouet was rubbish first time he saw him jump.

The neighbours won't reveal the points so will have to resort to subterfuge!!!!
		
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Lemon or strawberry bonbons? If it's going to be one of those all-night 'change the horse world' sessions, best to pack a couple of flasks too - both hip and Thermos.

Alas, plans for the Geneva trip turned to smoke (ashes). Having abandoned Dublin airport, we joined the exodus to Rosslare where we have now left a base camp for the Badminton trip so should be top of the ferry queue in 2 weeks time. 

That's the beauty of shop-bought Swiss Rolls, full of longevity like the Irish horse. And Nelson himself. He and 'Rio' - poster boys for the 2016 Olympics in his hometown - priceless publicity. 

Was it not his young colt, Rodrigo, though that turned down B de R in the beginning? 

Subterfuge? Nay, surely not.  



Eothain said:



			Why have I all of a sudden seemed to have been turned into the "bad guy" of the thread? I'm not trying to unwind any remarks I made. I stand over what I said. I very much doubt that we will see Olympic level showjumpers sired by Irish Draughts in the middle to near future. I see no point in having an opinion and not expressing it where it's relevant. Once again, I am not trying to unwind any comments.

Cumano/Cougar/Cruising/Puissance preferances? All I'm saying, is that I think by crossing a warmblood stallion of merit to a good quality mare, getting a filly and crossing that back to another good warmblood we will get the quality fillies we need to make the best use of the good younger jumping stallions that I keep naming, Cara Touche, Samjemgee, Oldtown KC, Cruisings MF, Ringfort Cruise and the eventual young stallions by the likes of Puissance, Errigal Flight, Coevers Diamond, Clover Brigade. In my honest opinion, for what it's worth, although anything I seem to have said is just being ridiculed, we will create a better gene pool from which our showjumpers will re-emerge as the best in the world.
		
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It's not so much your opinions but the manner in which they're said that can come across a continual put-down of Draughts, non-showjumpers and bread & butter type horses. And that has caused ripples. No-one has *seriously *suggested that a Draught stallion is going to be the next saviour for breeders whose sole goal is to breed showjumpers and only showjumpers. But they still play a role in the general sport horse market. 

Your breeding plan is fine in principle but as it changed from Cumano to Cougar to Watermill Swatch to Puissance  etc as possible covering sires from page to page, I lost track of which stallions are on the list.  It's going to take years, nay ..decades and several equine generations, to emulate what the Europeans have done so good luck to you, and any other breeders, going down that road. 

One of the most telling comments at the Cavan inspections was from a Well-known Breeder, whose equine family have featured heavily in this post. "I wish I could start all over again" "But you've done so much" "Yes, but it took me five generations to do it!".

And in five generations time from now, where will either showjumping or eventing be in approximately 2060? That's for the Alec post. 

Sadly, another of the old boys is gone from your list, Eothain, with the death of Errigal Flight.


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## hilly (19 April 2010)

rebel mountain said:



			well with young ish's like them coming up and irish draught's like classic vision and coille mor hill and tb's like watermill swatch do we not have the raw materials to build a good studbook
		
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There were two Classic Vision stallions up for inspection last week, neither made the grade. Likewise, with Coille Mor Hill, apart from one of Marion Hughes' horses, hasn't featured in too many pedigrees of recent performers. Watermill Swatch - super young stallion but will be at least 2 years before we see the first of his progeny under saddle. He will definitely add refinement which is badly needed in the Irish mare herd and there will always be a place for such a refining influence to mix n'match with performance and substance. Even the KWPN and Selle Francais still look for the occasional TB but where to find these sires? Only 3 presented at Cavan, of which two were provisionally accepted. 

Happy days? More like Confused Days ..


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## hilly (19 April 2010)

Irishlife said:



			Eothain

I am a little bit perplexed by all the different stud books emerging. I think it sums it up when you said we do not have the discipline for the rigidity of WSI. Therefore by definition does it not mean we will go to the studbook that will have us?  Likely IHR?  There is a bit of lemming mentality and the Irish Draught society split as not helped one bit. Rumours are now abounding that if the passport does not have the IHR horseshoe stamp - it isn't a draught. Flipping heck its all gone to hell in a handcart and that is before we touch on the horses themselves! Will the IHR end up as a dumping ground for the stallions that could not pass in SEIS or WSI? 

The market potential is greater for stallion owners with SEIS and after all it is within the spirit of the EU to have a Euro studbook.

The new studbooks mean we have more choice when it comes to choosing stallions so will the Irish horse become ever more diluted?

A lot of good work has been done by the IHR and just as they are getting with the programme, there are different options.

I do not know how the panel of inspectors was made up, but I think it would be helpful if it were multi national as sporthorse wise there is quite a bit of difference between "type" depending on warmblood, TB etc so a good TB man or woman may not be so hot on a warmblood.  We can all spot a good horse at 100 paces but there are intrinsic differences between "types" so I would say you need subject matter experts with pretty broad knowledge.

I do not know who was on the panel for inspections, but they are every bit as important and influential as the new testing model.  How were they appointed to the panel, what are their qualifications to be there.  

Only asking...... but have booked a spot on the last Irish Draught and wagon out of town if heretic comment has been made 

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The Irish Draught Civil War is a disgrace.  Have a good grasp of the split having followed it since 2006 - more bon-bons, please - meetings, AGMs, EGMs and it is such a pity to see the Society come to this. If there had been more pro-active intervention at the very beginning, I wonder would it have? 

I don't see the IHB becoming a dumping ground because, while I have the provisional figures and from what I saw at Cavan, the inspectors were strict about what got through. I see another development in the future: that stallion owners simply won't bring their horses out at all and will just 'hang out a shingle', advertise them for cheap fees and foals, by such stallions will get generic white passports. Cost is the big issue at the moment and even before the inspections began, one owner of a beautifully-bred 'designer foal' estimated that from his test-tube days to gaining full approval at 8 years of age will cost six figures. 

That is a LOT to win back in stud fees. And that is one very special horse. So I can't quite see the 'average' stallion owner being prepared to go to those lengths for a Joe Soap stallion. Best case scenario, owners of 3yos will present them for inspection and decide from that day's decision whether to continue on with their quest.

Anyhow, regarding the inspectors.  Applications for the panel were advertised - anyone who wanted to could have applied. 

Here's the panel at this year's inspections:

Sporthorse - Col. Ned Campion, Lt Col. Ronnie McMahon, Maurice Coleman, Jack Doyle, Dr Charlotte Moore, Alastair Pim and Philip Scott.

Irish Draught - George Chapman, Michael Kirwan, Dr Charlotte Moore, Denis Dullea, Gillian Black, Michael Ryan, John Butler and Padraig Fitzpatrick. 

Each panel judged 'their' horse from start to finish throughout the day. Someone mentioned about the 1975 era. Surely you would prefer the likes of Ned Campion who has walked the talk and is highly respected, to someone who left college five years ago?  There is another on that sporthorse panel whose knowledge of conformation and correct movement is stellar while you also have the likes of Jack Doyle. 

I think HSI - and I am the first with constructive criticism at times - are in a no-win situation. If they don't move forward, they're backward and if they do, they're keeping up with the European Joneses! 

I also think part of the 'problem' is the Irish anti-establishment psyche. You cannot TELL an Irish breeder what to do, you can coax with grants and premiums but gently does it easing in a new system. I will certainly give the new system the benefit of the doubt for the next couple of years, as with any new studbook or development, but it will have to be seen to deliver.

Maybe it's part of that anti-establishment mode but is there also huge apathy amongst Irish breeders? Apart from the stallion's 'connections'  I counted no more than 20/30 interested onlookers at Cavan; superb facilities albeit during one of the nicest spells of recent weather and held in daytime midweek. Hold it at the weekend combined with the annual stallion parade = much better option.

It's the same at the AGM or elections; same handful of reliables. I was genuinely excited by last year's elections as there was some fantastic candidates such as Peter Leonard and Barry O'Connor who both have their finger on the pulse when it comes to buying and selling top horses, from Ringwood Cockatoo to Rivaal. Neither got elected.  But I would have loved to have seen what either/both would have brought to the table. Again, was it apathy? 

Anyhow, just to sketch in the background to the stallion inspection panel, plus some further thoughts.  Sun is shining, even through the ash, time to go check blooming broodies. 

P.S: What? you're ALL jumping on the Irish Draught bandwagon now..


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## Eothain (19 April 2010)

Regards me changing stallions here and there, that's the beauty of having 4 mares! I'd use Cumano on my pride and joy Duca Di Busted mare this year but well, am kinda broke so use Puissance this year. Am going to do something commercial this year and sell some of the foals in Goresbridge!!! Even though my Father would have me exorcised for trying to make money in such a way!!!! That way I'll hopefully be able to afford Cumano next year for her Cabdulla Du Tillard for her Classic Vision daughter. She also has a yearling Clover Flush daughter that will never compete due to breaking her leg last year so she'll be getting bred from at 3. That'll be 5 mares then. I should get through my list fairly quickly then!

Errigal Flight is dead? I can't believe it. I actually felt a lump in my throat when I read that. A legend in his own lifetime has passed on and NO stallion sons to continue his Legacy. He had 3 horses in the 100 horse Grand Prix in Coilog yesterday. Ireland is poorer for his loss.

More to say, will be back later. Horses to ride now


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## Irishlife (19 April 2010)

I did not see the panel list before the inspections. Certainly, there are people there who I hold in highest esteem and some of them are thoroughly nice friendly, helpful people too. Ned Campion is fab as is George Chapman and give a lot of time to advancing young people's knowledge too. I am so disappointed I could not go but next year I think it should be a proper festival and I will be booking my camping ticket and seat in the gallery ahead of time. 

I think a nice Martini for Pessoa watching and we should retain strawberry bon bons for serious debate and the zesty lemon ones for lighter topics such as sniggering over ID photoshopped pictures.   

Terribly sad about Errigal Flight, I have some horses with his breeding.

I am so excited to see the results and will look forward to seeing how it progresses. I am quite unnerved Hilly by what you said about the potential for stallions to become "backyard breeding" if they get knocked out of the process at three and decisions are made not to progress in the process.


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## Alec Swan (19 April 2010)

hilly,

lord above,  so much to debate!  Your penultimate paragraph,  in your last post but one,  answered my question,  but with another question!  You're not actually helping me,  at the moment!  

In the event that none of the old school can see a way forward,  then I would suggest that the instigator of this thread may very well be right.  

One question for the traditionalists;  that all breeds of horses have evolved,  will be obvious,  but have they stopped evolving,  and if they have,  then should they have done so?

I would also,  with the greatest respect,  point out that the myriad of suggested stallions are entirely valid offerings,  though I accept that the sheer volume of them is confusing,  at best.  The owner of one mare will seek out the ideal stallion.  The owner of five,  or more mares,  will need to expand their search to encompass those horses which will suit each individual mare.  That the mare is of vital importance,  is not in question,  but then so is the horse to whom she's put.  That,  I would suggest,  is the need for such a variety of stallions. 

I would also suggest that for Ireland to have,  say half a dozen top class stallions,  really isn't good enough.  Of course Ireland produces some very good horses,  but if you consider the number of horses,  in your home land,  per capita,  then you really should be producing more.  The equine knowledge which is contained within Ireland,  is staggering,  but of little use if it becomes bogged down in "tradition",  just for the sake of it.

Eothain,  others have sat in judgement of you,  and all that I would say to you is that,  perhaps if you'd been a little more circumspect,  then you may not have ruffled quite so many feathers.  I am 40 years your elder,  and I've been as abrasive as you have been,  on occasions,  for all the good that it's done me!  

I,  and I'm sure that I'm not alone,  would consider that your search,  outside of what is literally before you,  would be entirely correct.  If the Continental stallions can be used to improve the Irish mare herd,  then that must surely be the way to go.

Despite your tender years,  your reference library of breeding is quite remarkable,  and that is not a patronising remark.  I would be more than happy to be proved wrong,  but the ID/TB mare,  put back to a TB,  has had its day,  perhaps.  It worked 30 years ago,  but now?  The odd one will come through,  it's just that there seems to be no consistency. There needs to be a serious introduction of foreign blood,  in my view,  but only because there simply aren't enough top class stallions,  or importantly the equivalent mares,  standing in Ireland.

Debate I've decided,  gives me the chance to think and consider my entrenched views.  With help,  I will continue to do so!

Alec.


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## hilly (19 April 2010)

Irishlife said:



			I did not see the panel list before the inspections. Certainly, there are people there who I hold in highest esteem and some of them are thoroughly nice friendly, helpful people too. Ned Campion is fab as is George Chapman and give a lot of time to advancing young people's knowledge too. I am so disappointed I could not go but next year I think it should be a proper festival and I will be booking my camping ticket and seat in the gallery ahead of time. 

I think a nice Martini for Pessoa watching and we should retain strawberry bon bons for serious debate and the zesty lemon ones for lighter topics such as sniggering over ID photoshopped pictures.   

Terribly sad about Errigal Flight, I have some horses with his breeding.

I am so excited to see the results and will look forward to seeing how it progresses. I am quite unnerved Hilly by what you said about the potential for stallions to become "backyard breeding" if they get knocked out of the process at three and decisions are made not to progress in the process.
		
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Can I have one of those Martinis now, pretty please?  Have just checked mares again. The ginger one is listing to starboard and I am  at the size of that bump. 

Just to clarify about the 3yos - that is the cheapest option for would-be stallion owners. It will still add up - 198 inspection fee; a couple of week's loose-schooling/jumping at boot camp if it can't be done in-house; a full vetting, including x-rays, down to a day off work for the owner/helper and diesel - but the options for older stallions, then under saddle, will be higher.

Then you will have to factor in having him jumping on the circuit while the meter is ticking.  So the ideal, economic scenario for a would-be owner is get a young horse out and find out if he's worth perservering with. And some will rail and rage and go all out to prove their failed horse is the next Cavalier.

Of course, anyone campaigning a stallion knows what it costs to prove him in competition. It's a gamble and will only really pay off when he is producing sons/daughters as good as, if not exceeding, his own track record.

A long and winding road.  

Three owners I spoke to planned to geld their 'failed' stallions, I suspect when they went home and cooled off, that two might change their minds but the other horse is probably singing high tenor and walking a tad gingerly by now. 

To me, it just opens up the possibility of Ireland becoming a two-tier breeding nation. One set of breeders will do everything by the book while the other slips back into 'sure, whatever you'd like him to be by'.  

Anyhow, bring your knitting next year IL, we can sit in the front row of the mob who will holler 'off with his ..leadrein' at the failed candidates.


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## hilly (19 April 2010)

Eothain said:



			Regards me changing stallions here and there, that's the beauty of having 4 mares! I'd use Cumano on my pride and joy Duca Di Busted mare this year but well, am kinda broke so use Puissance this year. Am going to do something commercial this year and sell some of the foals in Goresbridge!!! Even though my Father would have me exorcised for trying to make money in such a way!!!! That way I'll hopefully be able to afford Cumano next year for her Cabdulla Du Tillard for her Classic Vision daughter. She also has a yearling Clover Flush daughter that will never compete due to breaking her leg last year so she'll be getting bred from at 3. That'll be 5 mares then. I should get through my list fairly quickly then!
		
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A friendly word of advice - do not get out of your depth! I know of someone who, unbeknownst to his intended betrothed, has sequestered some of their Marital Home building fund to buy straws from two European stallions. I really, truly hope the gamble pays off for him otherwise there will be a wedding dress on eBay. 

Keep your feet firmly on the ground, the good stallions are out there on ice/liquid nitrogen when you have the funds to comfortably justify spending them.


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## hilly (19 April 2010)

a1b2c3 said:



			hilly,

lord above,  so much to debate!  Your penultimate paragraph,  in your last post but one,  answered my question,  but with another question!  You're not actually helping me, at the moment!  

_You did ask and the background and politics of Irish breeding hasn't even been scraped of volcanic ash yet. _

I would also,  with the greatest respect,  point out that the myriad of suggested stallions are entirely valid offerings,  though I accept that the sheer volume of them is confusing,  at best.  The owner of one mare will seek out the ideal stallion.  The owner of five,  or more mares,  will need to expand their search to encompass those horses which will suit each individual mare.  That the mare is of vital importance,  is not in question,  but then so is the horse to whom she's put.  That,  I would suggest,  is the need for such a variety of stallions. 

_I potentially have four mares to cover this year. I would certainly not consider owning/breeding/running on retained fillies from any more than that amount. I can tell you which stallion is on their dancecard until the year 2015.  All depending on factors such as safe foaling, (and there have been some sad tales already from other breeders, plus I have done more than my share of trips to Troytown and the Equine Centre to ever take horse-breeding for granted); if a mare needs a year off; if the stallion is still alive; if not, there's a Plan B partner.  Plan, then implement _
I would also suggest that for Ireland to have,  say half a dozen top class stallions,  really isn't good enough.  Of course Ireland produces some very good horses,  but if you consider the number of horses,  in your home land,  per capita,  then you really should be producing more.  The equine knowledge which is contained within Ireland,  is staggering,  but of little use if it becomes bogged down in "tradition",  just for the sake of it.

[I]Actually, there's not a huge amount of top class stallions to pick from within any of the major studbooks. Hence why there's inbreeding, looking for the next flavour of the month and some top stallions producing 400 foals a year.  The problem of finding a top, commerical stallion is not unique to Ireland.[/I]

I would be more than happy to be proved wrong,  but the ID/TB mare,  put back to a TB,  has had its day,  perhaps.  It worked 30 years ago,  but now?  The odd one will come through,  it's just that there seems to be no consistency. There needs to be a serious introduction of foreign blood,  in my view,  but only because there simply aren't enough top class stallions,  or importantly the equivalent mares,  standing in Ireland.

_This is exactly what I said in an early post. Everything is cyclical. Everything has it's 15 minutes of fame. You don't hang on to it, you learn from it, take the best from it and apply it to the future. Neither should you downplay or denigrate that era either. The topic of 'do we have enough good mares left in the country to breed out of this doldrum' came up at Cavan, it was decided that the odds were at best 50/50. 

Can't remember as it was pages past but someone asked, quite charmingly but naively, if the Europeans would help Ireland out, or look kindly on us - words to that effect. Why should they?! We were once their shopping ground, our breeding and competitive rivals, then 'just' competitive rivals and now we are merely another market, there is no loyalty in commerce.

And that is why Irish breeders have to know exactly what they have in their mare herd; what they plan to breed, not a 'one size fits all' hope, how they will sell/market their horses, not just in 18 months time but in 10/20 years time and be prepared to adjust to market forces. 
_


Debate I've decided,  gives me the chance to think and consider my entrenched views.  With help,  I will continue to do so!

Alec.
		
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Or we could just throw you down a rope ladder?  Digging yourself in deeper is never a good plan


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## Eothain (19 April 2010)

hilly said:



			A friendly word of advice - do not get out of your depth! I know of someone who, unbeknownst to his intended betrothed, has sequestered some of their Marital Home building fund to buy straws from two European stallions.  I really, truly hope the gamble pays off for him otherwise there will be a wedding dress on eBay. 

Keep your feet firmly on the ground, the good stallions are out there on ice/liquid nitrogen when you have the funds to comfortably justify spending them. 

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Why thank you! Yeah, I've been warned by several people about the quality of Cumano's semen. Someone has suggested to me that because I'm such a fan of Nabab De Reve, and his stud don't export semen, I should go to Belgium, find a Nabab De Reve mare and buy her on the conditin that she goes in foal to Cumano. The thought has crossed my mind, again and again and again and again.

If I do choose to hedge my bets and not go with Cumano next year, then Cornet Obolensky is high up there in my list but he's relatively young. Luidam lives 20 minutes away from me and is 17 as is Ars Vivendi. So failing Cumano, my Duca Di Busted mare will be booked into both of them provisionally, after I see them of course, am happy about suitability and all that goes with it. Although, I have seen Luidam several times at this stage. I love that horse! Then when the mare adds those two notches to her bed post, Obolensky will be in his late teens and priority for using him will shoot up!

The mare will be 19 then and of course provided she doesn't miss any years in between, her retirement would have to be considered!!! However, Renkum Woudina did give birth to Ringfort Cruise at like 23 or something!!!

Also saw that Heritage Fortunus has come back to Ireland for this breeding season. He was also vital in that famous victory of August 6th 2004 for which I love Luidam so much. Another spanner thrown in the works!!! On top of all this, I must now go and search the country for an Errigal Flight colt that is stallion quality. So much to do, so little time!

Also, may I just say, that I never intended to be abraisive. Blunt, yes. But I was never looking to pick a fight.


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## rebel mountain (19 April 2010)

hilly said:



			There were two Classic Vision stallions up for inspection last week, neither made the grade. Likewise, with Coille Mor Hill, apart from one of Marion Hughes' horses, hasn't featured in too many pedigrees of recent performers. Watermill Swatch - super young stallion but will be at least 2 years before we see the first of his progeny under saddle. He will definitely add refinement which is badly needed in the Irish mare herd and there will always be a place for such a refining influence to mix n'match with performance and substance. Even the KWPN and Selle Francais still look for the occasional TB but where to find these sires? Only 3 presented at Cavan, of which two were provisionally accepted. 

Happy days? More like Confused Days ..
		
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coille mor hill has 980 sjai points
in 2008 he had only registered 282 in total
in 2008 cruising registered 1211 in total
for a horse to have competed to that level you would think he should have an RID son approved as he is one of the last living sons of clover hill[the yard stick in with all sires have to measure up to]


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## Eothain (20 April 2010)

Just out of brazen curiosity, I would like to ask all of you, in particular Hilly, Rebel Mountain and Simsar to tell me what you think is the way forward for show jumping breeding in Ireland. Where in your minds do you go from here for international success and economic viability and why?

I gave my opinion a number of pages ago in a really long reply. No one has commented on it good, bad or indifferently yet!

Also, can I just make it very clear that I am not denigrating the bread and butter types or eventing or anything else. At least, it's not my intent. I am just concentrating my focus on showjumpers.


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## hilly (20 April 2010)

You're looking for MORE essays?  Afraid there's two chances this week, nil and none.   Once HighRisk mare, nudging ever closer to due date *touches wood* and her horsepital visit is earned, then I can concentrate on story time. 


And no, I didn't think you were looking for a fight, a lively debate and humorous exchange of opinions, yes; posting Big Ear pics, maybe not so welcome,  but fight, no. 

You obviously care about the future of the Irish horse, as do many of the contributors here; I was merely balancing the debate by pointing out we have bred some brilliant four-legged ambassadors in the past - just because their unique cross no longer works in the current market, makes their achievements no less laudable - and that as 80% of Irish horses are destined for the leisure market, invariably in the UK, that as much as we would ALL like to breed the next champion - Cheltenham, Dublin, Badminton, wherever - that the reality is most of these horses will not reach such heady heights but will still bring years of enjoyment and repeat business from such customers.

There - *dismounts from saddlesoapbox*. Have fun with this one in the meantime.. who controls the future of the sport we're breeding these horses for?


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## Simsar (20 April 2010)

Eothain said:



			Just out of brazen curiosity, I would like to ask all of you, in particular Hilly, Rebel Mountain and Simsar to tell me what you think is the way forward for show jumping breeding in Ireland. Where in your minds do you go from here for international success and economic viability and why?

I gave my opinion a number of pages ago in a really long reply. No one has commented on it good, bad or indifferently yet!

Also, can I just make it very clear that I am not denigrating the bread and butter types or eventing or anything else. At least, it's not my intent. I am just concentrating my focus on showjumpers.
		
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I have sooooooooo much to say at the minute but it is just all getting jumbled in my head.

For what it is worth I don't feel that anyone on this debate has been looking for a fight, just an exchange of views and opinions that we ALL feel strongly about.

Will try and write down my thoughts and post later.


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## Eothain (20 April 2010)

Super, I'm looking forward to some good reading later!

On the point of who will control our sport in the future; I hope that Showjumping Ireland and the Showjumpers Club continue to work hand in hand. I think it's an absolute disgrace that Millstreet is going ahead this year as an unaffiliated show. I for one, won't be there because if I have nothing else, I'll have my honour. Any riders who go, need to check their morals. How dare Millstreet think they are bigger than Showjumping Ireland!


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## Simsar (20 April 2010)

Eothain can you please re-read my second post on this thread and just answer some of those questions in red for me, you probably have already but I can't find any answers apart from the one about your mares, and it might help me un-jumble the mess that is my head if I have some answers to some questions I have asked previously?


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## gadetra (20 April 2010)

Thank you eothain for such a lovely welcome!!
I'd also like to draw your attention to two rather prolofic Longford mares-Virginia Wolfah and Zonah's Pet. Both with good stallion sons.
Also I can't understand the Collie Mor Hill cunundrum either. Great and good though Cruising undoubtably is, with 1189 foals reg'd in total you can't really fail to have some good performers with those numbers although I'm going out on a limb to say he hasn't really produced himself or better yet has he? (Please don't shoot me Eothain!!)
Collie Mor Hill has proved himself at top level and just doesn't seem to get mares. Any ideas anyone?
Also Sir Rivie is another interesting RID stallion-having competed internaltionally at 1.30m and above and, even more interestingly for an ID, he was a renownd speed specialist. He also shares his sire with Cruising- Sea Crest, out of a Ginger Dick mare. 
On the TB side of things French Buffet is another exciting addition to the Irish stallion ranks. An ex-racer, he jumped to 1.50-1.60 internationally but he's gettin on a bit now-25 I think.
There son't seem to be any heirs to Master Imp's eventing throne, but I hear and see good things about Cult Hero's stuff, I think Pippa Funnel is riding one at the mo?
Overheard hereasy at RDS last year-a number of people talking about staying away from Touchdown and Puissance for the sake of Colin Diamond. Why???
I am also a fan of the new 'trafic light system' for the studbook but remain confused and bewildered at the birth of the two new Irish Warmblood studbooks. Why? What's wrong with the good old IHR? The traffic light system and the different sections within suffice for me but maybe I'm alone in that. By refining the one we already have and improving it, a la the KWPN we can build a stronger case for ourselves by unifying it all-'united we stand divided we fall and all that??.'
Sorry for the long and rambling post I haven't quite got the hang of this!


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## gadetra (20 April 2010)

Also just to say this thread rocks-long may it roaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrr!!


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## Eothain (20 April 2010)

Simsar said:



			htobago, Don't bring bloody politics into it or we will be here forever!!!

Click to expand...

Looks like we're here forever anyway!!!

On to the red text:

Without an injection of warmblood we'd be even further behind than we are. The classical Irish horse was a galloping horse that generated jump through speed. With more technical courses, they'd have no room to generate that jump. Warmbloods can generate jump from little or no space. We need that in our horses.

Because we have an awful marketing machine, if we weren't subsidised, we wouldn't be debating this. There'd be nothing to debate. I've already outlined how I'd go about changing that.

I'm ignoring the stuff about Draughts. I think Draught Horse and then think ... Meh!

We're not selling out by using warmbloods. See point 1. Yes, we need thoroughbred blood but where are they? We're not going to get access to the likes of Presenting or Old Vic and even if we could, who's to say they'd be of any use? Where are the thoroughbreds?

I hope Watermill Swatch can help out but I know he has his doubters. I can only live in hope that his doubters can be proved wrong.

One other thing, I agree with Jan Greve when he says that there is no such thing as a freak showjumper. I agree when he says that a mare who produces a grand prix horse is a good mare as is a stallion who sired a grand prix horse though he never competed himself. Who's to say that in different hands, the parents wouldn't have been stars themselves? The family of a grand prix showjumper is always a good family in my view.

And no Gadetra, Cruising will never produce a horse as good as or better than himself. Why? He's the best to have ever lived. He's the best of any breed, any discipline, any type, any race, creed or colour. He's the best there is, the best there was and the best there ever will be!


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## rebel mountain (20 April 2010)

in answer to eothains early question in id's we have coille mor hill,crosstown dancer,classic vision,sir rivie and eothain's favourite huntingfield rebel
in ish's we have chippison,cara touche,cruisings mickey finn,king's master and puissance
in tbs we have???????????????????????
we might have a tb problem but foreignbreds aren't tb's but if you want a tb horse by master imp golden master is your man he is only s1 unfortunatly


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## hilly (20 April 2010)

gadetra said:



			Thank you eothain for such a lovely welcome!!
I'd also like to draw your attention to two rather prolofic Longford mares-Virginia Wolfah and Zonah's Pet. Both with good stallion sons.
Also I can't understand the Collie Mor Hill cunundrum either. Great and good though Cruising undoubtably is, with 1189 foals reg'd in total you can't really fail to have some good performers with those numbers although I'm going out on a limb to say he hasn't really produced himself or better yet has he? (Please don't shoot me Eothain!!)
Collie Mor Hill has proved himself at top level and just doesn't seem to get mares. Any ideas anyone?
Also Sir Rivie is another interesting RID stallion-having competed internaltionally at 1.30m and above and, even more interestingly for an ID, he was a renownd speed specialist. He also shares his sire with Cruising- Sea Crest, out of a Ginger Dick mare. 
On the TB side of things French Buffet is another exciting addition to the Irish stallion ranks. An ex-racer, he jumped to 1.50-1.60 internationally but he's gettin on a bit now-25 I think.
There son't seem to be any heirs to Master Imp's eventing throne, but I hear and see good things about Cult Hero's stuff, I think Pippa Funnel is riding one at the mo?
Overheard hereasy at RDS last year-a number of people talking about staying away from Touchdown and Puissance for the sake of Colin Diamond. Why???
I am also a fan of the new 'trafic light system' for the studbook but remain confused and bewildered at the birth of the two new Irish Warmblood studbooks. Why? What's wrong with the good old IHR? The traffic light system and the different sections within suffice for me but maybe I'm alone in that. By refining the one we already have and improving it, a la the KWPN we can build a stronger case for ourselves by unifying it all-'united we stand divided we fall and all that??.'
Sorry for the long and rambling post I haven't quite got the hang of this!
		
Click to expand...


Another Paddy on board!   Passed through Longford on the way to Cavan last week and stopped at Granard, the shrine of St. Edward.  Thought it quite symbolic that half of the Macken family's landmark butcher shop is now 
a beauty salon while The Bay Horse bar next door is boarded up and for sale. Everything changes in rural and small-town Ireland. 

Virgina Wolfa produced Boherdeel Clover but tell me more about the other mare? 

You and Rebel Mountain asked about Coille Mor Hill; I remember him as a foal, not the most handsome boy even then but he made up for it in jump and he and Tom Slattery, one of the most stylish and natural horsemen, were a great success story. I think you would need nothing short of a very quality, athletic TB mare to cross with him - his stock are not the prettiest and possibly that had a knock-on effect?  

Less quality mares, less chance to redeem himself. 

Sir Rivie? Shush, he's a pure-bred Draught. 

For the three C's - Cavalier, Clover & Cruising, it was definitely a numbers game.  One example, Cavalier, a deserved well-regarded event sire has foals in four figures; Peacock, the NH sire of Ringwood Cockatoo, produced just 33.  Definitely a numbers game.

There are some pretenders to Master Imp's crown; I am baffled and bemused by one claim that a certain TB sire was regarded as second to him?   The objective challenger is Power Blade with Cult Hero, who is definitely producing some very promising 'youngsters' including Flying Machine, Ghareeb and possibly Frankfort Boy.  French Buffet and Watermill Swatch will be up there in a couple of days, agree it may be too late for FB.

Colin Diamond's progeny have super temperaments, that is one of the reasons he's so popular but at the end of the day, it's the breeders choice, (and pocket) whichever stallion they pick.


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## hilly (20 April 2010)

Eothain said:



			Looks like we're here forever anyway!!!

And no Gadetra, Cruising will never produce a horse as good as or better than himself. Why? He's the best to have ever lived. He's the best of any breed, any discipline, any type, any race, creed or colour. He's the best there is, the best there was and the best there ever will be!
		
Click to expand...

Now them's what I call Cruising-coloured spectacles.


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## hilly (20 April 2010)

rebel mountain said:



			i
we might have a tb problem but foreignbreds aren't tb's but if you want a tb horse by master imp golden master is your man he is only s1 unfortunatly
		
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Yes! Big fan of Golden Master, almost as much as Kings Master, and it's all but impossible to find Prefairy in any Irish pedigrees.  S1 status wouldn't bother me in the slightest and had plans worked out, he would have made a great match for my Clover Hill mare. Jill Day bought one of his foals at Goresbridge last October so excellent showcase home.

There MAY be another new TB sire arriving in Ireland.  If and when it works out - just heard the news today - I'll be standing top of the queue, with at least two broodies in tow.


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## hilly (20 April 2010)

Eothain said:



			Super, I'm looking forward to some good reading later!

On the point of who will control our sport in the future; I hope that Showjumping Ireland and the Showjumpers Club continue to work hand in hand. I think it's an absolute disgrace that Millstreet is going ahead this year as an unaffiliated show. I for one, won't be there because if I have nothing else, I'll have my honour. Any riders who go, need to check their morals. How dare Millstreet think they are bigger than Showjumping Ireland!
		
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Simsar can provide the next chapter, I'm just back in 'briefly' to post summat else.  

Was thinking more along the lines of course design and three-day-event short-shorter-shorter again formats in the future. After watching the World Cup final courses, wonder would it be possible to somehow get some collie blood as an outcross to breed the next generation of 'agility stakes' showjumpers. How much higher or abstract can showjumping courses get? 

Not to mention the fact that riders and grooms must practically have a pharmaceutical background to understand the latest regulations and the vigour of Kim & Aggie to keep feedbuckets scrupulously clean..

And after George Morris' comments about chestnut mares, are those planning to breed showjumpers considering eliminating the ginger gene?


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## Eothain (20 April 2010)

One very quick point as I've to run back out to the yard, Sir Rivie is by Sea Crest. Sea Crest carries thoroughbred blood. Not quite pure bred!

What did George Morris say?


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## hilly (20 April 2010)

Paraphrasing but along the lines of 'this is a _*chestnut*_ mare, chestnut". Which kind of inferred that chestnut mares are extra-sensitive 

The full press conference with McLain and Tim Ober, at which George makes the remarks at the end of, is online, Google it.


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## GrassHorse (21 April 2010)

Thanks, 
I watched the video of the press conference. "this is a chesnut mare" "this is a chestnut mare" so important!, he had to say it twice! 
By the way, I love chestnut mares!


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## Irishlife (21 April 2010)

GrassHorse said:



			Thanks, 
I watched the video of the press conference. "this is a chesnut mare" "this is a chestnut mare" so important!, he had to say it twice! 
By the way, I love chestnut mares!
		
Click to expand...

I get where he is coming from in a way, I have a home bred chestnut colt who is hypersensitive. When he gets bitten by an insect it becomes the size of a golf ball, he gets rain scald in a mild shower. He has special going out to play suits for summer and winter to protect him. He is twitchy and sensitive and says OUCH much more loudly than the other colours I have. 

She must have been a very patient chestnut mare because my boy would have had somebody's eye out if his leg was palpated 57 times. We persevere with him because he is brave and talented albeit a bit delicate in his own time.

I do think George WAS trying to pull some tails with those chestnut remarks (an old chestnut so to speak - gawd think I'll leave the puns to Hilly)


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## GrassHorse (21 April 2010)

I don't know about the whole chesnut thing. I have three chestnut mares, only one is touchy. The two others are fine. I think when you have a mare like that, its very easy to say " chestnut mare" 
Whats the only thing worse than a chesnut mare? an Irish Draught chesnut mare


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## amjo (21 April 2010)

Eothain said:



			I don't think they would have sired better class with out the foreigners. When you look at videos on youtube of the old Irish horses, it looked more like sheer heart rather than out standing talent that got them around. They were quite unorthadox and cobby. When you watch Rockbarton or Heather Honey or Heather Blaze, you'd think to your self, how in the name of God did they manage to jump around? The problem with the foreigners that came in originally was that they simply weren't good enough. Cavalier, Furisto and a couple of others had a lot to offer but they were hampered by some other yakks that came in and the stigma is still there.
As for the Draught fellas, they are still in the dark ages. Anything they have to offer has been lost in a sea of bitterness to advances in modern sport. The fences are bigger, wider, lighter and cups shallower. In 1975 the courses had no such thing as a related distance or dog leg. The horses could gallop along, fire itself in the air and once they didn't hit the fence on the way up. They wouldn't knock it on the way down. Look at the videos of the old jumpers and listen to them rub off every fence. They'd be eaten alive by Peppermill and Co today. We need the sharpness of those foreigners to quicken the horses and get them up in the air.
Yes, I do mean it'll be traditional ISH colts I'll be looking for. I've not given up on them yet.
One last thing, the unsuccessful foreign horses still have the temperament to go and do other things outside of competition. Look at the sheer numbers of horses exported to America for equitation classes. What do the young Germans learn to ride on? Those 'thick' foreign horses are not as thick as their reputation claims! There are of course exceptions but for the most part ...
		
Click to expand...

I am fascinated by this subject, as we can see everyone is quite passionate about it, and everyone wants to breed the best, but all with very different views..  I am in agreement with the majority of what you mention, especially regarding the Draught horses, their breeders seem to think that we are still going to breed ourselves a showjumper by using RID x TB.  That is not possible anymore.  Our horses need to jump more techincal, bigger tracks, .. the irish horse is brave and careful, but lacks scope and the majority of continental breeding can offer that.  This is why Cavalier worked well with the Irish horse, especially King of Diamonds or Cruising dam lines..  He gave us the scope we needed, though the rideabililty and carefulness was slightly lacking.  Luckily, the majority of Irish mares had those attributes.   
However, AS for the TB, they are all flat bred now, and have nothing to add to breeding a showjumper.  Maybe an eventer, but I would prefer to ride a scopey Holsteiner x Irish around Badminton than a little flat bred TB!
The majority of stallions you mention I think will help turnaround our breeding,(some I would not agree with) but we must be more critical of our mareherd as the stallions can only do so much!!


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## amjo (21 April 2010)

Eothain said:



			Looks like we're here forever anyway!!!

On to the red text:

Without an injection of warmblood we'd be even further behind than we are. The classical Irish horse was a galloping horse that generated jump through speed. With more technical courses, they'd have no room to generate that jump. Warmbloods can generate jump from little or no space. We need that in our horses.

Because we have an awful marketing machine, if we weren't subsidised, we wouldn't be debating this. There'd be nothing to debate. I've already outlined how I'd go about changing that.

I'm ignoring the stuff about Draughts. I think Draught Horse and then think ... Meh!

We're not selling out by using warmbloods. See point 1. Yes, we need thoroughbred blood but where are they? We're not going to get access to the likes of Presenting or Old Vic and even if we could, who's to say they'd be of any use? Where are the thoroughbreds?

I hope Watermill Swatch can help out but I know he has his doubters. I can only live in hope that his doubters can be proved wrong.

One other thing, I agree with Jan Greve when he says that there is no such thing as a freak showjumper. I agree when he says that a mare who produces a grand prix horse is a good mare as is a stallion who sired a grand prix horse though he never competed himself. Who's to say that in different hands, the parents wouldn't have been stars themselves? The family of a grand prix showjumper is always a good family in my view.

And no Gadetra, Cruising will never produce a horse as good as or better than himself. Why? He's the best to have ever lived. He's the best of any breed, any discipline, any type, any race, creed or colour. He's the best there is, the best there was and the best there ever will be!
		
Click to expand...

I just have to wonder how you could mention Cruising and Watermill Swatch in the same conversation?  Cruising was a great horse, yes for sure, but Watermill Swatch has nothing to offer the showjumping breeders, only the showing breeders.  All he will breed are pretty correct types that cant jump a cross pole.  I would be very surprised if he could breed a 1.60m horse from our mares in Ireland..  He is a dressage horse..


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## Eothain (21 April 2010)

You're not the first person to say that to me about Watermill Swatch! However, my point is that he could quite possibly add that suspension in step to our mare herd. I'm not saying that he'll breed the next superstar, but as a potential dam sire I hold him in provisional high regard. If he breeds good looking, well conformed, good moving mares that can make a nice shape when loose jumped then he could prove his worth there. Theoretically, that could be the filly which will bring plenty of blood before breeding to a big powerful Holsteiner stallion that will bring the jump and scope.
If he doesn't work out, so be it. I am looking forward to seeing the progeny out of his fillies on the circuit in a few years time


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## rebel mountain (22 April 2010)

i would like to hear more about this new tb horse hilly or are you keeping your cards close to your chest


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## Simsar (23 April 2010)

Have we made H&H most viewed yet??


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## Eothain (23 April 2010)

One of the most viewed anyway for sure!!!


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## Simsar (23 April 2010)

I don't know the little girls on the other forums can get to 10,000 on pink stuff!!


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## gadetra (23 April 2010)

argh wrote something to quote and it dissappeared and now it's on twice-sorry :-(


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## gadetra (23 April 2010)

QUOTE: Virgina Wolfa produced Boherdeel Clover but tell me more about the other mare? 

Zonah's Pet produced Captain Carnute-by Equest Carnute by Oberon Du Moulin. Pamela Miller bred those two mares to a couple of SF's ages ago-ahead of her time maybe?!




QUOTE: There are some pretenders to Master Imp's crown; I am baffled and bemused by one claim that a certain TB sire was regarded as second to him?   The objective challenger is Power Blade with Cult Hero, who is definitely producing some very promising 'youngsters' including Flying Machine, Ghareeb and possibly Frankfort Boy.  French Buffet and Watermill Swatch will be up there in a couple of days, agree it may be too late for FB.

Yeah I have my doubts about Ghareeb I think he may be a bit of a Big Sink Hope-pretty lookin commercial things who may get there through numbers alone. I like Golden Lariat though, haven't seen him but seen plenty of his offspring an they're fine big strong lookin stuff with nice steps-the next Golden Cliff maybe???!!
Colin Diamond's progeny have super temperaments, that is one of the reasons he's so popular but at the end of the day, it's the breeders choice, (and pocket) whichever stallion they pick. [/QUOTE]


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## gadetra (23 April 2010)

GrassHorse said:



			I don't know about the whole chesnut thing. I have three chestnut mares, only one is touchy. The two others are fine. I think when you have a mare like that, its very easy to say " chestnut mare" 
Whats the only thing worse than a chesnut mare? an Irish Draught chesnut mare

Click to expand...


Every ID breeders worst nightmare!!


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## gadetra (23 April 2010)

Yeah Watermill Swatch is a dressage horse but i agree with Eothain about him adding a bit of suspension-and maybe a more active hindleg. As to bringin the resulting progeny to a Holstein'r I'd go French personally but in the hope of the same result!!

How about High Roller for a nice eventing chap? Vaguely Noble damsire so not too flat bred although I definately agree that there is a profusion of light bred flat types out there as I said in an earlier post.

Surely we must be most viewed by now? I haven't ventured beyond the breeding threads are there really armies of little girls posting about pink stuff? Scaryness!!
Here's to being the most viewed-certainly the most interesting!!


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## hilly (23 April 2010)

Afraid it's trailing far behind the McLain Ward/Sapphire story on Chronicle of the Horse which is close to 60,000 hits in one week. 

On the chestnut mare comments, ack, will put it down to exasperation on George Morris' part although his 'feel far away from home' comment was possibly another kneejerk reaction.

Sweeping statements are my bugbear. It's an old wives tale about chestnut mares; one home-bred chestnut here was the sweetest most placid creature that gave maligned redheads a good name. 

FEI would have a field day with BrownTingedGingerYearling. Tired of dunking the Pretty Pony's abandoned Jolly Ball into his hayrack, his latest party piece is chucking it out over the door at passers-by.  

Farrier is due this weekend so a refresher course in picking up feet this week. Maybe too much. All you have to say is 'Up', touch a foreleg and he hops from one front leg to the other like Michael Flatley on Red Bull. Dropped in his evening feed earlier - usually he's hovering at the manger .. nope, standing patiently in the corner, on three legs with his near fore held up ready for a manicure. Or FEI jury.  

And he's by Ghareeb.   What is wrong with pretty, commerical horses???  I'll take 'em anyday to fugly Can't Get Rid Of 'Em ones! They're also very intelligent characters, I can't abide thick neddies but any of the Ghareebs I've met are kindly, intelligent characters. Love them. 

Not in the same category at all as Big Sink Hope, apart from Playboy and a nice youngster, Plutarch, can't think of many of his progeny that have gone on eventing whereas the Ghareebs have, including Coolio and Regal Promise, over in the States. 

He hasn't got huge numbers either though that could well change this year with Master Imp's absence and now Ghareeb is available by AI again within Ireland. 

And just as I've mentioned Imp, two of his progeny in the Rolex top ten and damsire of Ashdale Cruise Master, also in the top ten. All to play for yet over the next two days but interesting to see so much TB blood at the top of the dressage leaderboard, including Cool Mountain and .. what's this? The fourth-placed horse is by .. an Irish Draught. Must be a typo. 

Mentioned Golden Lariat in another post - early days for him, Watermill Swatch and French Buffet.

Can't scroll back further but someone mentioned Badminton cross-country machines? Last year's picks, for me, were Coolgrange Merger (by a flat-bred TB sire) and Lenamore (out of a flat-bred TB dam). 

Am saying nowt about the possible import, Rebel Mountain, until the deal is done and his travelling boots are removed at his potential new Irish home. NOT MINE. No connection. I just heard the story and his partial pedigree earlier this week; now I've seen his full pedigree/pics and oh lordy .. I'm just  giddy over the new kid on the block's pedigree as it just ticks all the boxes for anyone planning to breed eventers. IF and I've heard no updates, it works out and he's as impressive in the flesh,  I will be top of the 2011 queue.


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## ruby1 (24 April 2010)

Reading this post made me think back to an Irish Draught ( Simply Velvet) mare i used to know when i worked at a local riding school many moons ago now. She was one of the most beautiful horses and had a fantastic temperament. Anyways after looking I found out she has 3 Hornby premiums which i think is good for breeding purposes but not sure how any of her youngsters have actually got on. Has not much to do with the thread but just wanted to say  thanks for awakening the memories.


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## rebel mountain (25 April 2010)

hilly ireland is without a top tb sire since master imp pasted[R.I.P. CHAMP] are you just leave us out of the loop?


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## hilly (25 April 2010)

Eh? Agree Master Imp was as good as it got but if you mean by leaving 'you' out of the loop over new neddy, that's as much as I can know or say until the 'winner alright' is declared. 

Had a lovely weekend; first at the very well-organised Connie-ference yesterday where there was a fab line-up of speakers and topics, not just Connemara pony-related. No need for DVDs or knitting at this convention, IL. 

Stef Bucca from Somerton Equine Hospital was excellent, as were all the speakers, but the Thought-Provoking Cookie of the day had to go to the lady who declared that "the days of Ireland breeding showjumpers are gone". And that would be one Mary McCann, owner of Hartwell Stud and Cruising. Now, there's food for thought from the expert's mouth.

Dropped the 'Monster' off at horsepital earlier for foaling; she is within sight of Huntingfield Rebel who looks as Andulasian noble-like as ever and Cruisings Micky Finn. Not at all what I expected; he's looking $500,000 and I'm sure once he's got 4 more weeks of TLC at his new base, will look the full million but still impressed by the new arrival. He definitely resembles Sky Boy, not at all clunky or plain.  

Now, off to watch the Rolex live streaming.


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## Eothain (25 April 2010)

hilly said:



			the Thought-Provoking Cookie of the day had to go to the lady who declared that "the days of Ireland breeding showjumpers are gone". And that would be one Mary McCann, owner of Hartwell Stud and Cruising. Now, there's food for thought from the expert's mouth.
		
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Well, this entire thread can be deleted so. The white flag has been raised. With tears rolling down my cheeks, it's time for me to reach across my desk, grab The Essential Simon and Garfunkel and play Bridge Over Troubled Water.

It's over, we lose.

Did she give any reason as to why she said that?


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## gadetra (25 April 2010)

Eothain said:



			Well, this entire thread can be deleted so. The white flag has been raised. With tears rolling down my cheeks, it's time for me to reach across my desk, grab The Essential Simon and Garfunkel and play Bridge Over Troubled Water.

It's over, we lose.

Did she give any reason as to why she said that?
		
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AW Eothain my heart goes out to you!! -step away from the Simon an Garfunkel...dry them eyes...it's time to start your own all Ireland showjumping breeding empire. One mare at a time then BAM! your the next male Mary McCann! ;-)


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## gadetra (25 April 2010)

hilly said:



			And he's by Ghareeb.   What is wrong with pretty, commerical horses???  I'll take 'em anyday to fugly Can't Get Rid Of 'Em ones! They're also very intelligent characters, I can't abide thick neddies but any of the Ghareebs I've met are kindly, intelligent characters. Love them. 

Click to expand...


Well your right the fugly unsaleable ones are worse. Ghareeb has 600 foals registered to him an been approved since 1998. That's a fair old time and a fair few progeny on the ground to not have something decent represent him at the top level...
Is Colourfield sill covering? He's gettin on a bit now. I have a soft spot for them.


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## Eothain (26 April 2010)

Speaking of Big Sink Hope, he actually had a horse in the Premier GP in Louth today. It's much easier to go through the Premier startlists than the Chippison League startlists.
Big Sink Hope, Errigal Flight, Clover Brigade, Cavalier, Clover Echo, Touchdown and Cruising each had one hoorse in the Grand Prix today. 23 of the 30 qualified starters were foreign horses. Maybe Mary McCann is right! Maybe we're screwed!

***EDIT***

Lux had one in the GP as well, but it doesn't count because it isn't an Irish bred son of Lux


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## Irishlife (26 April 2010)

Moving to the World stage, it is not all bad news for Irish horses and a complete feather in the cap for Irish Draughts; below are the rankings after the cross country at Rolex Kentucky.

"Three Irish Sport Horses are in the top ten following the x-country action today at Rolex Kentucky CCI4* 

2nd Tipperary Liadhnan (ISH)  1997 grey gelding by Fast Silver (RID) out of Gypsy Star (ISH), by Im A Star (TB). Bred by Tobias Corbett. Rider: Kim Severson (USA) 
6th Mandiba (ISH) - 1999 gelding Master Imp (TB) out of High Dolly (ISH) by Chair Lift (TB). Bd William Micklem. Rd Karen OConnor (USA). 
7th ODT Master Rose (ISH)  2000 bay gelding by Master Imp (TB) out of Skyrose (ISH), by Sky Boy (TB). Bred by Patrick Kirwan, Knockroe, Borris, Co. Carlow. Rider: Oliver Townend (Gbr) "

Just looking at the line up it is clear if we are to be more scientific, the genetic value in the sires mentioned in the above paragraph is glaringly obvious. How to harness those with new blood of equal merit is going to be the hard part.

Congratulations to FAST SILVER (RID) and his connections. (You will believe a draught can fly!)

(Hilly - Trick photography, smoke and mirrors, typing error???)

We ARE capable of producing world class horses and if Eventers are our speciality, then capitalise on it and celebrate it.  So we don't do showjumpers anymore - Do we want to? Why not focus the effort where we can do the job and make our Eventing studbook invincible??

So saying, I was looking down the microscope at a Belgian warmblood's tadpoles on Saturday with a view to inseminating my warmblood broodmare......... Dreams hey


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## SJFAN (26 April 2010)

Unfortunately, Paddy as Kim Severson's horse is known to his friends, rather let the side down yesterday by refusing one fence and demolishing several others to drop way down the list!


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## Irishlife (26 April 2010)

Errmmm Yes I know SJFan..................  

However , it is still proof the Irish Draught has a role as a foundation breed when the progeny are competing at 4* despite their detractors and congrats still in order to Fast Silver's people.


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## SJFAN (26 April 2010)

Yes, I'm a fan of Irish-breds as well. Oli's other ride Ashdale Cruise Master is of course by Cruising, out of Slys Girl by Master Imp and was very unlucky to take that horrible fall.


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## Simsar (26 April 2010)

Thanks for that Irishlife, It looks as though our little ID colt has got the best ID breeding for eventing then, being by a RID half brother to Grange bouncer and out of a good Fast Silver mare, good job that is what we bought him for, watch his space!!!!!


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## hilly (26 April 2010)

gadetra said:



			Well your right the fugly unsaleable ones are worse. Ghareeb has 600 foals registered to him an been approved since 1998. That's a fair old time and a fair few progeny on the ground to not have something decent represent him at the top level...
Is Colourfield sill covering? He's gettin on a bit now. I have a soft spot for them.
		
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It's not that long and it's not that many! You're talking about an average of 60 foals per year in that  ten-year span from his first foals on Irish ground to last year and for me, he's well on course for producing eventers and has already achieved his target as a showhorse sire. That is his main role. An eventer & showhorse sire. 

Master Imp had a seven-year lead on him - went to stud as a 3yo - and even with all his advantages, he is gone before his best are yet to be seen on the eventing circuit.

Such is the lot of the eventing sire; as Colourfield's pragmatic owner says about his stablemate, Orbis, 'he'll be dead before people know how good he was'.

Alas, Colourfield went to the covering paddock above 2 years ago; a very useful sire and even better broodmare sire as his daughters throw their stock like their covering sire.

No, Mary didn't elaborate. She did add that the French have almost caught up in the eventing studbook rankings and .. reach for the smelling salts .. that one of the most commercial animals was a Connie mare crossed with a TB sire. 

She's smart, she's shrewd and she has seen the writing on the wall. And personally, I agree the glory days are gone and that I would rather throw pins at the moon than start a showjumping breeding programme that realistically may only catch up with the European leaders in showjumping breeding in 3/4 generations. Which will take at least 30/40 years - I aim to  have retired to the Florida sunshine long before then but will continue to breed those pretty, commercial animals in the meantime. 

Them's not special effects, Irishlife,  them fence judges in the grassy knolls gave up waiting for the Draught thing to lumber round  the course in four hours. 

Yes, it fell apart for him on the last day, whether it was an injury picked up on the SJ course or he ran out of steam after a gruelling x-country, who knows. Mandiba pulled a shoe x-country and I can imagine the work put in by the O'Connor team overnight but he'll be back in September.  Ollie's fall was a shock - the speculation last week was whether he and WFP would even make the competition so it puts the whole risky sport of eventing into perspective. The best news is all horses and riders are in one piece after the Rolex and they will resume battle there during the WEG.

The other piece of obvious news from the Rolex is TB, TB and more TB lines. I'm not sure on whose watch the formats were tweaked but when they were, it was supposed to usher in the end of the TB influence in eventing.  Between Miner's Frolic and Cool Mountain, pure TBs are cleaning up at 4* level and Michael Jung's Sam (at least 80% TB) is the other top horse right now. 

And yes, big shout out for Fast Silver's connections. He's standing at the moment with one of the nicest young Draught enthusiasts/breeders you could meet - he even built a brand-new stable especially for Fast Silver's arrival last year and puts his heart & soul into preserving Draught lines. Another breath of fresh air.


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## hilly (26 April 2010)

Ack, Photobucket is acting up, had a pic of Colourfield to post. Later


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## Eothain (26 April 2010)

Eventing may be our speciality but I'll be damned if I give up on our showjumpers. 

Congratulations to Fast Silver and his connections for the Kentucky result. I'm absolutely delighted for all involved.

Now, some people might think, *gasp* You hypocrite, how dare you jump on the bandwagon!!! I'm not. I said waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back somewhere near the beginning that I want the ID stallions to show me that they can produce the goods. I didn't/don't care if it's showjumpers or eventers. I want them to show me they have a place at the table. I want to sort out who has a place in a Sports breeding program and who doesn't. Fast Silver's place is well and truly secured.
Another ID who has proved he merits a place and he hasn't been mentioned at all yet is Crannagh Hero. What a gem. If I could find a Crannagh Hero filly with two crosses of good thoroughbred back beyond that, I'd find it hard to pass by. 

The glory days for showjumpers are well over but I'm sure there's enough of us who are too stubborn to give up on getting those days back _eventually_. No one said it's going to be easy but if it's not worth fighting for, it's not worth doing.

Thankfully, the TB studbook isn't affiliated to WBFSH, or our job would be even trickier than it is at the moment.

All I know, is that I'm rooting for Sam Watson in particular at Badminton. I've had the pleasure of speaking to his dad John on several occasions. He's the only person I've met that likes Puissance more than I do. I dare say he likes Puissance more than the Hutchinsons do!!! What a genius when it comes to Event horse breeding. He's made it very clear to me what is going to be required from Eventers in the next few years


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## rebel mountain (26 April 2010)

[droped the 'Monster' off at horsepital earlier for foaling; she is within sight of Huntingfield Rebel who looks as Andulasian noble-like as ever and Cruisings Micky Finn. Not at all what I expected; he's looking $500,000 and I'm sure once he's got 4 more weeks of TLC at his new base, will look the full million but still impressed by the new arrival. He definitely resembles Sky Boy, not at all clunky or plain.  

Now, off to watch the Rolex live streaming. [/QUOTE]

stupid question/what do you mean by this


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## Simsar (27 April 2010)

Crannagh Hero ah yes bred by the lovely lovely Tim O'Sullivan, what a great man he is, met him and Mr Casey at one of our breed show dinners 2007 I think.  Fantastic horse.


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## rebel mountain (27 April 2010)

pity he has RID no stallion son


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## Eothain (27 April 2010)

Never mind RID sons. It's a pity he has no stallion sons at all. ISH or RID


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## hilly (27 April 2010)

rebel mountain said:



			[

Now, off to watch the Rolex live streaming. 

Click to expand...

stupid question/what do you mean by this[/QUOTE]


Watching the live action online from the Rolex three-day-event.


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## hilly (27 April 2010)

Eothain said:



			Never mind RID sons. It's a pity he has no stallion sons at all. ISH or RID
		
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_coughs_ NowHeHasCavanStallionInspections _coughs_


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## hilly (27 April 2010)

hilly said:



			Ack, Photobucket is acting up, had a pic of Colourfield to post. Later
		
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_pats Photobucket_ .. 








Here's the old boy when he won the Croker Cup in '92. And one of the ringside onlookers is the one-time owner of Diamond Lad, Accondy and now, Cougar and who also bred the dam of Carling King. 

You meet practically everyone if you stand still at Ring 1 for long enough. 

Going back to Ghareeb - Coolio won the 2* at Scone Palace last weekend for the second year in a row. Not bad for a Pretty Sire. 

Puissance and Master Imp's success is mainly due to Imperius; now if only there were even more sons of his available.


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## amjo (27 April 2010)

hilly said:



_pats Photobucket_ .. 








Here's the old boy when he won the Croker Cup in '92. And one of the ringside onlookers is the one-time owner of Diamond Lad, Accondy and now, Cougar and who also bred the dam of Carling King. 

You meet practically everyone if you stand still at Ring 1 for long enough. 

Going back to Ghareeb - Coolio won the 2* at Scone Palace last weekend for the second year in a row. Not bad for a Pretty Sire. 

Puissance and Master Imp's success is mainly due to Imperius; now if only there were even more sons of his available. 

Click to expand...

The stallion Jack Of Diamonds carries the Imperious blood... He is by Irco Mena and his dam is by Imperious x King of Diamonds mare.  Irco Mena himself has the breeding of the old Irish thoroughbreds Menelek and Battleburn (sire of Boomerang). He is definitely going to be a serious jumping & eventing sire.  his foals are getting big prices at sales too..
Check out  www.lissavastud.com


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## AddyKan (28 April 2010)

Well I finally  got a big strong healthy colt  last night.... only about 3 1/2 weeks overdue !!

So quick question,  the dam is an imported german warmblood mare and the sire is a foreign warmblood stallion, but he was born right in the heart of Tipperary!!!!

So would you consider him to be Irish?  I know he's not the irish bred horse you've all been talking about as there's no Irish blood in him to be seen!!  But I'd say he was Irish as he was born here, but then I'm biased lol


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## Eothain (28 April 2010)

The foal dropped in Ireland. Irish enough for me.


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## ruby1 (28 April 2010)

Completely agree,if its born there then it belongs there,definately Irish bred.


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## rebel mountain (28 April 2010)

Puissance and Master Imp's success is mainly due to Imperius; now if only there were even more sons of his available. [/QUOTE]

cavalier land carries imperius blood.he is by cavalier royale x imperius x highland flight sire of highland king sire of ballincoola
can anyone trump those eventing lines!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol


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## Eothain (28 April 2010)

Is Cavalier Land going for approval?


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## rebel mountain (28 April 2010)

no he is s1 
 i bought a skyboy mare off his owner i asked him the same question he told me he was s1 selected for performance testing and that was good enough for him


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## Eothain (28 April 2010)

... ... ... sigh!!!

*Insert head shaking here*


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## rebel mountain (29 April 2010)

not to worry i wonder if the horse board will approve golden master now that master imp is dead


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## Eothain (29 April 2010)

He should be brought out for inspection anyway. Regardless of his lineage! In my view, which I stress to those reading and following this but that may not be commenting, _in my opinion_ stallions absolutely must be brought forward for inspection. Unless of course the connections of any given stallion, not necessarily Golden Master, have a lack of faith in their horse and therefore have something to hide!!!

Simsar, what happened to the compilation of thoughts on ISH breeding going forward that you were working on?

This entire thread is slowing down. I realise that people are running out of things to say, but no one has answered the question I asked.

What, in each of your opinions, is the best way for Irish breeding to forward with the end goal of defending our Eventing crown, restoring the pride of our showjumpers, continuing to produce the bread and butter horses that everyone loves whilst also, most importantly, creating an economically viable Sport Horse sector in Ireland, encompassing everyone from elite riders to breeders? How do we create a sector that is able to stand on it's own two feet and not as dependant on subsidies?

How do we do it?


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## Alec Swan (29 April 2010)

Eothain,  

you will,  doubtless remember many pages back,  that I asked much the same question.  You've asked "How do we do it"?  and I asked,  "What of the future"?  

Perhaps it's a good thing,  that this thread has slowed down.  Perhaps those with valid opinions,  are starting to consider the views of others.  Defending "our" own corner is to be understood,  but whilst an Irish breeding programme is fragmented,  and there is no common goal,  then progress will not be made.  It may well be that the traditionalists,  and those who would see a change of direction will hold hands,  or at the very least,  consider the views of others.

That Ireland has produced the very best horses for many years,  cannot be in question.  It may well be that,  because of financial pressures, the bed rock of good and purposeful breeding,  the best of brood mares,  has rather been abandoned.  If I'm wrong,  and it hasn't,  then the stallion selection has been inadequate.  

You started this thread,  and I'm sure that I'm not alone in applauding your efforts.  It will,  though,  be a pointless exercise if the only points queried will be those which are contentious. If Ireland is to regain it's deserved crown,  then entrenched attitudes need to change.  It can be done.

I may well be alone,  but the opinions of most on this thread,  have rather altered my thinking.

Your final question?  Don't know,  I was rather hoping that you would tell me!  

Alec.


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## rebel mountain (29 April 2010)

look at the great horses we used to produce 
eg cruising =sea crest RID x nordlys TB x water serpant TB
eg puissance =imperious TB x diamonds are trumps RID x mythical TB
eg laughtons flight =king of diamonds RID x highland flight TB x bell laughton RID
THE MEN BEFORE US WERE NOT FOOLS THEY KNEW WHAT WAS OUT FOREIGN
cavalier was a great stallion but he did more harm than good he set everyone in this country foreign bred mad so when other foreigners came in to this country people thought they were all going to be  cavaliers and they not.why poison our irish bloodlines with foreigners
for me cavalier was good but was he as good a sire as cruising or clover hill
just my opinion


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## Eothain (29 April 2010)

I'm not trying to be contentious. I've already given my view on what the way forward is. It's back somewhere around the early to mid-30s I think. I've my opinions on how things can go forward. Some of my thinking has been changed by this thread. Not to be entrenched!
Not one comment has been made about my thoughts on how to make an industry out of Sport Horse breeding in this country because we don't have an industry in my view, we have an expensive hobby! I can repost what I've said already if you missed it.

All I want, is to hear from a few others who have been on this thread the whole way through to get their stance on where we go from here.

Then this thread, delightful as it has been to be a part of it and indeed to have started it, can be laid to rest.

As for Cavalier doing more harm than good ... That's a bold claim!


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## BallyshanHorses (29 April 2010)

Eothain.This is our stance on the subject as depicted by what mares are going to what stallions this year.As far as bread and butter horses are concerned where are the buyers for them now???

Ballyshan Diva(Ricardo Z X Carnival Night) covered with Cornet's Stern. 
Ballyshan Lady by Cavalier Royale to Mermus R(Burrgraf X Ramiro Z) 
Lough View Lass(Animo X Cabby/Chou Chin Chou) to Ustinov(Libero H X Nimmerdor) or Eurocommerce Canturano(Canturo X Coriano) 
Ballyshan Claudia(Lux Z X Diamond Lad) to Chellthago. 
Ballyshan Belle(Fastness X Persian Bold) to Lancelot(Voltaire X Nimmerdor) 
Ballyshan Cleopatra(Cobra X VDL Arkansas) to Verdi/Canturano.
_________________


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## Simsar (29 April 2010)

Hi I really will reply soon been a bit busy with puppies, covering mares, vets and I have stupidly agreed to take on a major role in the IDHS(GB) breed show organisation so don't really have a lot of time to come on here at the moment, I have got Saturday off so will try and reply to your questions then

Simon


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## Irishlife (29 April 2010)

Ballyshan - An exciting mixture of stallions on some well-bred mares.

I think everybody who has contributed to this thread should form the steering committee for the Irish Horse Board strategic plan to achieve it's  goal of improving the Irish showjumping horse. All of life and experience is here - our overseas customers and consumers, hobby breeders, strategic breeders, professionals, Irish horse traditionalists, dreamers and pragmatists, experts and novices,show jumpers, eventers, hunting folk and warmblood people. 

Laying this thread bare, it was originally a post celebrating we now had access to even more stallions and choices for our breeding programmes. What it has become is a very rough blueprint of what we should be preserving, how we should be improving our broodmare herd, demarcation between types of sport horses and we have touched a little on sport horse production (separate thread please - a part two to this one). To a degree we can fine down the mixture of phenotypes neeeded for a given type, then identify traits from given stallion lines and dam lines and have a fairly good punt at producing the goods.

However, far from being a non subsidised industry, the only way to harness horse breeders is to have a state run facility e.g. The Army stands and competes stallions and these horses are made available at standard subsidised rates to mares who have passed an inspection and have been put onto a genetic improvement programme or are considered suitable foundation mares for the future of Irish show jumpers. We may even have to take it on the chin when our mares are NOT approved for the breeding programme. This of course would run along side private enterprise. It would take serious investment and as a nation financially strapped at the moment, and even in good times, the financial scale of regional state run stallion centres would be phenomenal but the advantages would be affordability for breeders as the best stallions in Ireland and Europe could be leased or semen made available at subsidised rates. 

But, this is Ireland and this kind of structure just would not work. The chasm between enlightened breeders and backyard breeders and all degrees between is frightening. I think someone said earlier the Irish don't do discipline and yes that is quite true there are a million breeding theories within a square mile of me so goodness knows what is out there in the rest of the country.

Example: RID mare of blue blood breeding was taken for a return service (did not go in foal) to an RID stallion. In the intervening year, the stallion was sold so was not available, so she was covered with a 2yo ID colt who they hope might pass his inspection next year.

So tear your hair out. 

The traffic light system is a huge leap forward I think its easy to understand
Approved, Preliminary Approved and Not Approved.

The future is a long way off for Irish Show Jumpers competing regularly and recognisably at international level but in the meantime, there will always be another Carling King or Cruising coming along to keep us hopeful and motivated.


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## BallyshanHorses (29 April 2010)

Irishlife thank you for your compliments.Please dont get me wrong in the stallions we have chosen and the mares that we have are what I want to mix with our herd.In turn if there is something out there that is irish and has the scope then we will use it.There are always going to be people who breed the traditional way.ID x ID or TB x ID and vice versa but we are not one of them.If people say the traditional cross(bread and butter type horses)are making a profit then who am I to disagree.This is the route we have taken and as long as it says Irish Sport horse that is all that matters.We have in the past been offered zangersheide or KWPN papers but as long as it says ISH I dont mind.


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## hati (29 April 2010)

Wow, have just read the whole thread and have to say that I have found it extremely informative and reassured that there are still plenty of very knowledgeable people out there in realtion to breeding. 

I however, have a huge predicament! I am a small amateur breeder (1 mare) and am completely confused as to who to send her to (have about 10days to make up my mind). 

My mare is bred to event (which she did successfully) she is by Senang Hati out of a Carnival night mare....she was bred by the late Michal Leonard (Ringwood horses).

I am torn between Puissance and Royal Concorde (a friend has sent his mare to him and is very keen on him). Or do I go to Kings Master or Colin Diamond?

 I have a Ricardo Z yearling - which seems to be fairly correct...will he be an international eventer - who knows? will he be a nice saleable horse - I sincerely hope so. Yes we would all love to breed the next badminton winner, but ultimately not all horses make it to badminton so at the end of the day I ideally want to breed a horse that is fit for a purpose - maybe some call this the bread and butter breeding market....but something has to pay for the breeding of the superstars. 

going off topic slghtly! A very good friend bred Portersize Just a Jiff, who is at Badminton this weekend....not bad for an 'overgrown' pony as she would admit herself. His 1/2 brother and sister were competing last weekend, getting placed in the amatuers and 1.20 as 5 and 6 yr olds! 


So summing all up....any ideas as to who I should my mare to? All ideas much appreciated.


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## Eothain (29 April 2010)

I'm going to reply very quickly before hitting the hay.

Yes stallion suitability and all that has to come into it and blah blah
(Better get that out of the way before I get ripped on for having the sheer nerve to recommend a stallion without seeing mare confo pics)

I'd be heavily pushing you towards Puissance. He has 2 in Badminton this week in Old Road and Horseware Bushman. It might be worth mentioning that he is the top living Irish sire of Eventers too. Sam Watson even wrote a letter to the Irish Field some weeks back asking people to use Puissance to produce Eventers He knows what he's looking for!!!

Royal Concorde is a fantastic horse and I think he'll sire some great eventers but Puissance is 22. How long does he have left? It's only now that people are realising what a fantastic stallion he is. Use him before it's too late. I've organised 5 mares to go to him this year. Hopefully he'll produce a nice colt from that bunch that might make a stallion. As a breeding nation, can we afford to have him die before gracing us with a bunch of stallion sons? I think not!

Your mare has Carnival Night in her back breeding, look at Matthew Wright's horse Hugginstown he's Puissance x Carnival Night. Incidently, the family who bred Hugginstown, also bred Dromgurrihy Blue, Puissance x Furisto. Michael Ryan rode him to victory in the 1 star event in Tattersalls last year. Dromgurrihy Blue is a full brother to a mare I ride around 1.20 classes, soon to move up to the 1.30 classes, Eskerhills Lexis. Yes, the aforementioned Michael Ryan is the same man who rode the Puissance gelding Old Road to 2nd place in Tattersalls in the 3 star last year.

What more advice do you need? With Master Imp's untimely death, Puissance might just get a few more mares than normal. He might take his place as one of the greatest Eventing sires ever and with progeny showjumping at 5 star level, he's not a half bad jumping sire either. Such a pity that he had to hit his twenties before people realised!


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## hilly (30 April 2010)

rebel mountain said:



			not to worry i wonder if the horse board will approve golden master now that master imp is dead
		
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Eothain said:



			He should be brought out for inspection anyway. Regardless of his lineage! In my view, which I stress to those reading and following this but that may not be commenting, _in my opinion_ stallions absolutely must be brought forward for inspection. Unless of course the connections of any given stallion, not necessarily Golden Master, have a lack of faith in their horse and therefore have something to hide!!!
		
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Golden Master was presented for inspection and was classified as S1; he could be re-presented under the new Traffic School system but a; can't speak for the owners on whether he ever will be; b; an S1 status is no deterrent for some breeders - Cavalier was S1 for years; c; there is nothing to hide with this horse, let's knock that notion on the head! 

He is also one of the best-bred TBs between an Imperius male tail line (and that's where I look for Imperius and ideally, in a TB sire) and Prefairy. The only other Master Imp x Prefairy cross is Mandiba's family, (with some Chair Lift thrown in here too).   Looked up Mandiba's family after the Rolex; he has a three year old full brother colt, which William Micklem plans to stand .. and two half-brothers by .. Grange Bouncer. 

Otherwise, yes, the thread is going round in 20 metre circles by now. The reality is we can talk and speculate and pontificate and armchair quarterback about the Irish sport horse industry forever and then along comes Mary McCann's stance in three succinct sentences.

There are stallions mentioned throughout the entire post which I would seriously question from a soundness/temperament/hype/unproven viewpoint. The only way 'you' will find out the truth about stallions is to take out the glowing and the disparaging remarks and somewhere between the two is the truth.  But breeding is still a lottery.

Hati - I think any of those stallions would breed something very suitable for what you're looking for. Puissance is the senior, most proven one whereas Royal Concorde is starting off, relatively speaking and both Colin Diamond and King's Master are twixt the two.  Both these throw offspring with lovely, trainable minds, particularly KM. I pity the owners of such stallions because once the word spreads, then the owner of every lunatic mare in the country will flock to them hoping for a miracle  

Has your mare done working hunter classes?


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## Eothain (30 April 2010)

hilly said:



			Golden Master was presented for inspection and was classified as S1; he could be re-presented under the new Traffic School system but a; can't speak for the owners on whether he ever will be; b; an S1 status is no deterrent for some breeders - Cavalier was S1 for years; c; there is nothing to hide with this horse, let's knock that notion on the head!
		
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s1 is gone now. It's now Not Recommended for Breeding 1 (Sound stallion) or Not Recommended for Breeding 2 (Unsound stallion)

Not recommended for breeding isn't a very nice sounding term! There could well be an exodus of old s1 stallions to the traffic lights to get the green light

***NB*** I wasn't for a nano-second saying that Golden Master had something to hide. Not for two shakes of a rabbit's tail was I saying that. I was saying that _some_ horses might have something to hide. I doubt very much an unsound stallion with something to hide would be given the chance to stand at stud in Slyguff of all places!


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## hilly (30 April 2010)

Eothain said:



			It might be worth mentioning that he is the top living Irish sire of Eventers too.
		
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Just to clarify, that was according to Eventing Ireland statistics for horses competing under EI rules in Ireland. Which is all-good.

Under USEA and British Eventing sire stats; there are no living Irish-based sires currently featuring in the all-time or 2009 Grade 1 top rankings; there are a number in the younger sire lists such as Limmerick (eq 4th) and Ricardo z (6th) in the six-year-olds list  and Ghareeb (3rd) and Cult Hero (4th) in the seven-year-olds. 

The biggest kick from the BE all-time rankings are how under-used the posthumously truly great sires were - Stan The Man chestnut filly foals were sold for a pittance (the old ginger mare wive's tale  ) and Peacock covered just 33 non-TB mares.


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## DRSsporthorses (30 April 2010)

Eothain said:



			I'm going to reply very quickly before hitting the hay.

Royal Concorde is a fantastic horse and I think he'll sire some great eventers but Puissance is 22. How long does he have left? It's only now that people are realising what a fantastic stallion he is. Use him before it's too late. I've organised 5 mares to go to him this year. Hopefully he'll produce a nice colt from that bunch that might make a stallion. As a breeding nation, can we afford to have him die before gracing us with a bunch of stallion sons? I think not!
		
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Royal Concorde certainly has the potential to sire more than just eventers. He already has a showjumper named Annestown with the Irish Army team, and considering his damline, I would find it hard to discount him as just an eventer sire. His dam Trump Carder has been a phenomenal producer as discussed previously and her daughter is the dam of Carmena Z who is in Lummen jumping Nations Cup this week.  Sire Concorde has certainly proven himself, so that combination with the right mare cannot be discounted as only an eventer sire.  According to friends who have worked with his progeny, they can't say enough good things about what he is siring.  Am thinking if Ireland is looking to improve its damlines with traditional breeding, would it not make sense to use an ISH stallion out of a superior dam? Was thinking that was the point of the discussion about improvement of the showjumping stock in Ireland? If the goal of the new breeding policies are to take a scientific and systematic approach to breeding showjumpers then there needs to be some serious evaluation of the damlines that are doing just that. You also have Clover Flush out of Trump Carder's full sister and Clover Flush has proven himself as an international-level competitor and as a sire.


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## hati (30 April 2010)

hilly said:



			Hati - I think any of those stallions would breed something very suitable for what you're looking for. Puissance is the senior, most proven one whereas Royal Concorde is starting off, relatively speaking and both Colin Diamond and King's Master are twixt the two.  Both these throw offspring with lovely, trainable minds, particularly KM. I pity the owners of such stallions because once the word spreads, then the owner of every lunatic mare in the country will flock to them hoping for a miracle  

Has your mare done working hunter classes?
		
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Yes she has done a lot of working hunter with me a few years ago and then won the RDS equitaition with a friend in 2006. After the WH days we went eventing and dressaging!


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## hati (30 April 2010)

Eothain said:



			I'm going to reply very quickly before hitting the hay.

Yes stallion suitability and all that has to come into it and blah blah
(Better get that out of the way before I get ripped on for having the sheer nerve to recommend a stallion without seeing mare confo pics)

I'd be heavily pushing you towards Puissance. He has 2 in Badminton this week in Old Road and Horseware Bushman. It might be worth mentioning that he is the top living Irish sire of Eventers too. Sam Watson even wrote a letter to the Irish Field some weeks back asking people to use Puissance to produce Eventers He knows what he's looking for!!!

Royal Concorde is a fantastic horse and I think he'll sire some great eventers but Puissance is 22. How long does he have left? It's only now that people are realising what a fantastic stallion he is. Use him before it's too late. I've organised 5 mares to go to him this year. Hopefully he'll produce a nice colt from that bunch that might make a stallion. As a breeding nation, can we afford to have him die before gracing us with a bunch of stallion sons? I think not!

Your mare has Carnival Night in her back breeding, look at Matthew Wright's horse Hugginstown he's Puissance x Carnival Night. Incidently, the family who bred Hugginstown, also bred Dromgurrihy Blue, Puissance x Furisto. Michael Ryan rode him to victory in the 1 star event in Tattersalls last year. Dromgurrihy Blue is a full brother to a mare I ride around 1.20 classes, soon to move up to the 1.30 classes, Eskerhills Lexis. Yes, the aforementioned Michael Ryan is the same man who rode the Puissance gelding Old Road to 2nd place in Tattersalls in the 3 star last year.

What more advice do you need? With Master Imp's untimely death, Puissance might just get a few more mares than normal. He might take his place as one of the greatest Eventing sires ever and with progeny showjumping at 5 star level, he's not a half bad jumping sire either. Such a pity that he had to hit his twenties before people realised!
		
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Thank you, I had a real thing for Puissance this year as he is getting on in age whilst the others are realtively younger and may be around for a few years longer. Fingers crossed I get a filly.....

A picture of the mare in question












One of the mare last summer about 3 weeks before she foaled....






Ps sorry that the photos are so big!


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## rebel mountain (30 April 2010)

with master dead and gone should the irish horse board not be trying to keep tb sons of great stallions alive.look at skyboy and water serpant for god sake to great stallion where are their tb sons its a crying shame


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## rebel mountain (3 May 2010)

as this post seems to have come to a hault just like to say i have really enjoyed this thread


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## Simsar (4 May 2010)

It will continue, the week is getting easier!


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## gadetra (4 May 2010)

Long live this thread!!
Hilly I may yet be proved wrong about Ghareeb-He's certainly  makin a ripple in eventing sire terms however I still think 600 foals is plenty to prove performance with but I'm prepared to stand corrected 
Again: Long live this thread!!! It has been the most interesting and thought porvoking one I have come across


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## Irishlife (4 May 2010)

Just to stop people from having to find this on page two or three......

Badminton was terrific for Irish bred horses and I think Puissance may get a few more "brides" as a result. Also don't forget Stormhill Miller who stands in Wicklow (S1) sire of Paul Tapner's 10th place. He is getting some nice stock across the disciplines now. 

Looking forward to the results of the stallion inspections which should be published any day soon. It will be fascinating to see the marks and for once a completely transparent process.


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## Lark (4 May 2010)

To deviate momentarily back to the intial impetus from Eothain's thread "Happy Days For ISH Breeders'; I got confirmation today that Peppermill has been approved by the IHB.  Now they just need to update their website...which could take some time.


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## Eothain (4 May 2010)

In the words of one Leonard Cohen and later Jeff Buckley: Hallelujah!

Have been mental busy these past few days and haven't had time to be on. This thread isn't done yet!!!


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## hati (5 May 2010)

Irishlife said:



			Badminton was terrific for Irish bred horses and I think Puissance may get a few more "brides" as a result. QUOTE]

Mine being one of them! PG'd her yesterday and getting scanned on Thursday....rang Michael and hope to get semen at the weekend all going well!
		
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## Irishlife (5 May 2010)

Everything crossed for you Hati - here's to a successful conception!!!!!


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## rebel mountain (5 May 2010)

got good news yesterday mare scanned back in foal
can anyone tell me more about peppermill


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## Eothain (5 May 2010)

I inseminated my Duca Di Busted mare yesterday with Puissance.

What a weekend for him!

Cullenagh Lucinda qualified for the RDS 1.30 YR class on Saturday in Boswell.
Horseware Bushman finished 13th in Badminton.
Cullenagh Lucinda finished 5th in her first and her rider's, Michael Hutchinson J.R, first 1.40m GP in Thomastown on Sunday.
Highpark Lad qualified to jump in the 1.50m Premier G.P in Coilog on Monday
Old Road competed in Badminton,
and I had a 3rd place in the 1.10m in Coilog on Eskerhills Lexis on Sunday. Time now to get her ready for some 7 Year Old classes!!!!


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## rebel mountain (6 May 2010)

its a wonder hutchinsons don't have a young colt by him out of a good mare with stallion prospects


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## hati (6 May 2010)

Irishlife said:



			Everything crossed for you Hati - here's to a successful conception!!!!!

Click to expand...

scanned her today and will have to get her scanned on saturday...as the folicles are not big enough. Hope she is ready on Sunday, as I have work on Monday! So keeping fingers crossed


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## rebel mountain (7 May 2010)

best of luck hati what are you covering her to


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## Eothain (7 May 2010)

rebel mountain said:



			its a wonder hutchinsons don't have a young colt by him out of a good mare with stallion prospects
		
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Maybe they have, maybe they haven't 



hati said:



			scanned her today and will have to get her scanned on saturday...as the folicles are not big enough. Hope she is ready on Sunday, as I have work on Monday! So keeping fingers crossed
		
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Call in sick. Something's are more important than contributing to the nation's GDP. Covering your mare with Puissance is one of them!!!


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## BallyshanHorses (8 May 2010)

Totally agree with Conor.I skipped off work two weeks ago to go to Dublin Airport for some cargo.


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## rebel mountain (8 May 2010)

any thoughts warrenstown you 2


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## QF-WEST (8 May 2010)

"There are still some very good mares in Ireland. I estimate there are 10 to 15 mare families in Irealand that are of international standard. Carrigbrahan Lady line, Kilkenny Lady line, Trixie Lady line, Roadstown Gold line etc."

Iv been reading this thread for a while every night for the last week and have found it VERY interesting- Last night though, when I read those few lines quoted above I got A LOT more interested. (Iv only reached page 20 so apologies if this is discussed in detail later- I will try my best to catch up soon!!)

In relation to the Roadstown Gold line I only know of 3 of  progeny:
-Hilton Clover (x Clover Hill)
-Mr Cawley (x Furisto)
-Roadstown Diamond (x KOD)

Does anyone know what their main achievements have been to date?

My sister has a mare by Roadstown Diamond (ISH) out of a 'Candys boy (ISH)' mare. We bought her as a 3 yr old a few years ago.

To my knowledge Roadstown Diamond was never inspected as a stallion by the IHB (Correct me if im wrong?) but I think he is registered as a stallion with weatherbys.

Does anyone have more info on the Roadstown Diamond line? Any little bit would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks, 
QF


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## GrassHorse (8 May 2010)

I always thought Roadstown Diamond was gelding. He competed at 1.30m in showjumping. Mr Cawley and Hilton Clover were both international showjumpers.


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## Irishlife (8 May 2010)

Roadstown Gold had other progeny all by King of Diamonds

Kings Bliss (?)
Roadstown Queen (f)
Top Secret (f)

All of these were full sisters/brothers to Roadstown Diamond.

Roadstown Diamond is the sire of two WNTR mares who went to stud to Royal Dane and Grovesnor Lad.  He also appears as the dam sire of a show pony somewhere along the way.

RD does have an IHR number 1776878 which is probably his foal registration. He may have been gelded in later life I wouldn't know but he was covering mares. It may be worth contacting WNTR as he may have been registered there as a stallion. Possibly he was passed as an S1 S2 stallion but you would need to contact the horse board with his number.

ONly snippets but might help - Precipitation is represented in the dam line no bad thing.


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## TomReed (8 May 2010)

QF-WEST said:



			"There are still some very good mares in Ireland. I estimate there are 10 to 15 mare families in Irealand that are of international standard. Carrigbrahan Lady line, Kilkenny Lady line, Trixie Lady line, Roadstown Gold line etc."

Iv been reading this thread for a while every night for the last week and have found it VERY interesting- Last night though, when I read those few lines quoted above I got A LOT more interested. (Iv only reached page 20 so apologies if this is discussed in detail later- I will try my best to catch up soon!!)

In relation to the Roadstown Gold line I only know of 3 of  progeny:
-Hilton Clover (x Clover Hill)
-Mr Cawley (x Furisto)
-Roadstown Diamond (x KOD)

Does anyone know what their main achievements have been to date?

My sister has a mare by Roadstown Diamond (ISH) out of a 'Candys boy (ISH)' mare. We bought her as a 3 yr old a few years ago.

To my knowledge Roadstown Diamond was never inspected as a stallion by the IHB (Correct me if im wrong?) but I think he is registered as a stallion with weatherbys.

Does anyone have more info on the Roadstown Diamond line? Any little bit would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks, 
QF
		
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I own a mare named Emerald Cruising whose dam is a full-sister to Hilton Clover. You can read about the damline here:

http://www.morningside-stud.com/EmeraldCruisingM2S.html


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## hati (8 May 2010)

Eothain said:



			Maybe they have, maybe they haven't 



Call in sick. Something's are more important than contributing to the nation's GDP. Covering your mare with Puissance is one of them!!!
		
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so no action this weekend, the mare (as I suspected) is being awkward.....getting re-scanned on Tuesday so could be pulling a sickie next week!


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## brownswiss (8 May 2010)

Can any of you experts list some  QUALITY! Irish stallions suitable for crossing with a Roadstown Diamond X Candy's Boy Mare. She probably needs a stallion of 170cm or over.


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## rebel mountain (8 May 2010)

QF-WEST said:



			"There are still some very good mares in Ireland. I estimate there are 10 to 15 mare families in Irealand that are of international standard. Carrigbrahan Lady line, Kilkenny Lady line, Trixie Lady line, Roadstown Gold line etc."

Iv been reading this thread for a while every night for the last week and have found it VERY interesting- Last night though, when I read those few lines quoted above I got A LOT more interested. (Iv only reached page 20 so apologies if this is discussed in detail later- I will try my best to catch up soon!!)

In relation to the Roadstown Gold line I only know of 3 of  progeny:
-Hilton Clover (x Clover Hill)
-Mr Cawley (x Furisto)
-Roadstown Diamond (x KOD)

Does anyone know what their main achievements have been to date?

My sister has a mare by Roadstown Diamond (ISH) out of a 'Candys boy (ISH)' mare. We bought her as a 3 yr old a few years ago.

To my knowledge Roadstown Diamond was never inspected as a stallion by the IHB (Correct me if im wrong?) but I think he is registered as a stallion with weatherbys.

Does anyone have more info on the Roadstown Diamond line? Any little bit would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks, 
QF
		
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i think your dead right i don't think is our mares that are the problem i think its the horses we choose to breed to because if you can get huge money for foals all by the one stallion everyone jumps on the bandwagon 
e.g. lux z
did a filly foal of his not make huge money in goresbridge the next year he covered 254 mares
question is could every signal one of those mares suit him i think not


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## gadetra (10 May 2010)

rebel mountain said:



			i think your dead right i don't think is our mares that are the problem i think its the horses we choose to breed to because if you can get huge money for foals all by the one stallion everyone jumps on the bandwagon 
e.g. lux z
did a filly foal of his not make huge money in goresbridge the next year he covered 254 mares
question is could every signal one of those mares suit him i think not
		
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Couldn't agree more. The Luxz phenomonon is a mystery to me and I personally don't like him but a lot of others do so...
It happened with Huntingfield Rebel as well-over 250 foals this year and whilst it's great for an RID not all of those mares can suit, and i'll bet there'll be very few top lots  amongst them...


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## Eothain (10 May 2010)

It might be worth mentioning that one is an Olympic level showjumper and Pulsar Crown winner. The other, while being a very very very nice horse, isn't.
One has sired progeny that are competing at 5 star level showjumping, the other hasn't.

If anybody is giving away a nice Lux Z mare, I'll take it!!!


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## BallyshanHorses (10 May 2010)

We have two Lux mares out of a Diamond Lad mare who is dam of two grand prix horses.I personally Like Lux and he is making a good name for himself as a damsire.Given a free Huntingfield Rebel mare or a Lux mare I know which one I would chose any day of the week.


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## rebel mountain (10 May 2010)

the point i am trying to make is not about either stallion but the simply fact is the irish breeders if you like are like sheep they follow the leader so when one horses get popular he get extremely popular
on the brood mare front we have two great prospects coming up in the shape of irish independent echo beach and harristown princess can't wait until they retire to stud fully


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## QF-WEST (11 May 2010)

Thanks for the information regarding the Roadstown Gold line.

The mare is Roadstown Diamond(ISH) X Candys boy(ISH), Liver Chestnut, 15'3hh, and lightly built/bloody?
Pedigree: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/kellys+diamond+candy

Any suggestions as to a *good* ISH stallion and/or a good warmblood stallion to cross with her? 
170cms +

It would be nice to keep the lines Irish if there was a suitable ISH performance stallion that fitted the bill but its not likely we will find such a stallion unfortunately.


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## Irishlife (11 May 2010)

I think it is impossible to recommend a stallion from a mare without seeing her or even photos. If you go to the Horse Sport Ireland site, you can look at the stallion books on line.  Are you in Ireland? If not an Irish horse standing in Ireland would not be for you because of semen export restrictions.

Good luck anyway.


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## gadetra (11 May 2010)

Well I mean how many Olympic showjumpers will there be amongst his 250+ foals? The market will be flooded with Lux z's thus defeating the purpose of using to him in the first place to get a top priced lot in Gorsebridge. How many of those mares suit him? 
And Lux Z and Huntingfield Rebel, nice and good though they are, are not soley the answer to our showjumping conumdrum. As Rebel Mountain said, one of their offspring makes top lot and breeders flock to these stallions in the hope of replicating this magically - there is only so mauch a stallion can put on a mare...
How is this to improve the ISH?


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## Eothain (11 May 2010)

Fair point. For arguments sake, let's say that the majority of mares that went to Lux are nice mares with no major conformational issues etc. Average mares looking for a little bit of va va voom. Especially if the average mare breeds a filly. The filly _should_ be better than the mother. That's how the ISH moves forward.

Being honest, Lux or any stallion of his quality would generally have more to offer than the majority of Draught  horses. No not all of the Lux stock will make the international arenas however if they can jump 1.20/1.30 then they are perfect for the quite large and indeed largely forgotten young rider market. Nothing wrong with a good diesel horse for a professional either.

The showjumping market is much larger than the elite riders and if properly managed, is much more viable in the long run, than the bread and butter market.



QF-WEST said:



			Thanks for the information regarding the Roadstown Gold line.

The mare is Roadstown Diamond(ISH) X Candys boy(ISH), Liver Chestnut, 15'3hh, and lightly built/bloody?
Pedigree: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/kellys+diamond+candy

Any suggestions as to a *good* ISH stallion and/or a good warmblood stallion to cross with her? 
170cms +

It would be nice to keep the lines Irish if there was a suitable ISH performance stallion that fitted the bill but its not likely we will find such a stallion unfortunately.
		
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Clover Flush is the only ISH stallion I can think of, off the top of my head that's 170cm


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## BallyshanHorses (11 May 2010)

I am not Looking for the next top lot in Goresbridge I am looking for a horse that as Conor says is capable of jumping 1.40 and higher and is ridable and sound then we have done our job.The stallions we use are picked to suit the mares and vice versa all the while trying to improve the quality of the stock which in turn will give us good foundation mares for the future.Hopefully geldings and colts will be able to compete to the best of their bloodlines and do no harm if they can win for either a professional or young rider.
I am not into jumping on any bandwagon but if a horse is popular then what harm is that!!!???


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## rebel mountain (11 May 2010)

if we are talking about popularity then this is just something i heard that the country lux z was in before he came to ireland he only covered 4 mares in his last season thats a long way off 254
again i don't know if this is true


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## GrassHorse (11 May 2010)

There are still plenty of Lux Z foals being registered every year on the continent. He is very popular in all the european studbooks, as are his approved son's


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## Eothain (12 May 2010)

Exactly. Lupicor is just one of his popular stallion sons. Shame he's passed on now!

A large influx of Lux blood is in no way a bad thing for ISH breeding. Again, I'm hoping his daughters will produce the goods for us in the future


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## gadetra (12 May 2010)

I agree that Lux z can add some 'va va voom' to an irish mare if used discriminately-not to chase top lots and I understand most do put a HELL of a lot of thought into who our mares go to but not everyone unfortunetely.
On teh foreign sire front, things have improved significantly but there's still a long way to go in terms of quality. There are a lot of second-rate continentals being jumped on because of their perceived superiority but a lot have simply failed to cut the mustard back home. I'm not saying every foreign bred in the country is this there are notable exceptions-Ludiam and Guidam for example among others.
We exported our best thoroughbred lines as foundations stallions for these 'wonder breds' : Furioso, Cottage Son etc. I do not see this happening on the Continent. Perhaps we have literally sold ourselves short?...


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## rebel mountain (12 May 2010)

is lux z dead?


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## Eothain (12 May 2010)

No, Lux is alive and well. Lupicor is dead. He was a fantastic stallion.

There's plenty of good foreigners in Ireland for us to choose from who all have progeny competing on the International scene. Condios, Limmerick, Arkansas, Peter Pan, Iroko, Mermus R, Vechta and Lancelot to name just a few. Yes all of them stallions descend from Irish or British thoroughbred breeding to be honest, the thoroughbred of yesteryear is an awful lot different to the thoroughbred of today. That's a whole different discussion for a time when I'm not stuck for time.

Fact is, the continentals used our horses to benefit theirs, regardless of if we like it or not. We cannot dare think the policies and breeding patterns of the past will succeed today. The sport has changed and evolved. The time has come for us to use their horses to benefit us.

Turnaround is fair play after all


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## rebel mountain (12 May 2010)

i don't think i will ever convert but i do have a soft spot for cavalier O.B.O.S quality luidam and harlequin du carel but i would take cruisings mickey finn ,captain clover or laughtons flight over all of them
except maybe cavalier that would be a tie


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## Eothain (12 May 2010)

I see what you're saying, that's your choice to make. It takes all sorts afterall!

When traditional Irish breeding gets us back in the top 5 showjumping studbook rankings I'll sell all my stock with foreign breeding and go back to the traditional camp. That won't be anytime soon though will it? Speak with heads, not hearts!

I hate the belief that it's because of foreign horses "polluting" our herd that we've fallen off the radar. That's such a load of manure. You see some stud websites with phrases like "You'll find no warmbloods here" or "Free from foreign stallins" and I think to myself, Do you read the WBFSH rankings? Do you realise we're losing? Have you walked a Premier League GP course in Ireland lately? Do you realise what is expected of a showjumping horse? If the answer to any of them is no, then who are these people to ask us to use their stallions to potentially breed the next Aga Khan winning horse? Who are these people to insult our intelligence like that? That's exactly what they're doing. It's also why there is only the faintest glimmer of possibility that any of my mares will be sent to any of those studs. People might not like me for that but such is life. It takes all sorts to make a world after all.

Now, to be fair, I am in foul mood tonight so I'm not being very careful about what I say but being p-c only gets so much of your point across. Sometimes you have to shoot from the hip.

Luidam was on the Irish team that won the Nations Cup in Aachen. His super calm double clear won us the Aga Khan in 2004. Remarkably, that's the last year we won it. It was the first year no Irish horse was on the Irish team. There was uproar, but the result justified the team. No Irish horse has been on the team for the last 2 years either where we got a 2nd place in 2008, our highest fnish since 2004 and a disappointing 8th place last year. 

I'm proud to say that next year, I will be using both stallions from the victorious 2004 team on 2 of my mares. Heritage Fortunus on my Musical Pursuit mare and Luidam on my Duca Di Busted mare. I was going to use Cumano on the Duca mare but enough people have warned me about his poor quality semen to make me think that perhaps it would be cheaper to go to Belgium and buy a mare, preferably by Nabab De Reve, in foal to him!!!

I've yet to see any serious proposals put forward here as to how we can regain international credibility as a showjumping studbook and not use foreign stallions.

The argument about their alleged bad temperament also doesn't stand up to scrutiny.


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## rebel mountain (13 May 2010)

here is my proposeal in no more then 5 years maximum 3 brillant mares will be retiring to stud echo beach,hasrraitown princess and cullenagh lucille and there has to be one or two more now if they are light of bone give them a horse like classic vision,if they are middle ways give them a horse like cruisings mickey finn and if they are heavy and in need of a tb that a mystery but their is a tb horse in this country on the up


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## newlook (13 May 2010)

rebel mountain said:



			here is my proposeal in no more then 5 years maximum 3 brillant mares will be retiring to stud echo beach,hasrraitown princess and cullenagh lucille and there has to be one or two more now if they are light of bone give them a horse like classic vision,if they are middle ways give them a horse like cruisings mickey finn and if they are heavy and in need of a tb that a mystery but their is a tb horse in this country on the up
		
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I am new to this forum but am very entertained by the different views from all breeders...  This last one spurred me to respond.  Three decent competition mares like those deserve decent stallions. I think the thought of Classic Vision is an insult to those mares, and it is one way of breeding the jump 'out' of the mares!  Cruisings Mickey Finn is a good horse for sure, but I think they need more scope from the stallion side - something like Russel II is the job for them!  Has to be one of the best horses to ever stand in Ireland, and has pedigree & performance, how many stallions acan boast 14 Nations Cups, World Championships, European Championships, Puissance, Six Bars, Olympics etc.. and  Ireland are lucky enough to get 1st proper chance to gain his progeny! And his foals I have seen are smashers...  Other option is  Iroko, another serious horse from same stud.


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## BallyshanHorses (13 May 2010)

Welcome to the forum Newlook and thanks for chipping in.I have to say I dont think Russell will do any harm by standing here.We have a colt on the ground by him and I couldn't be happier with him.He was quite chunky when he was born but is now fining down and has taken on a lot more blood in the last week or two.Have you used him yourself?
As regards this thread there will always be the people for and against Irish and Foreign horses that are producing horses for different elements of the sport.If I was looking for a nice allrounder or a nice quite hack then I would use the traditional cross anyday but until someone can convince me otherwise I will stick to what we have been doing for a number of years and with a bit of success so far.
I am sure the Russels come in all shapes and sizes but this is an example of one of his.
A gratuitous pic of our Russell colt


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## Eothain (14 May 2010)

rebel mountain said:



			here is my proposeal in no more then 5 years maximum 3 brillant mares will be retiring to stud echo beach,hasrraitown princess and cullenagh lucille and there has to be one or two more now if they are light of bone give them a horse like classic vision,if they are middle ways give them a horse like cruisings mickey finn and if they are heavy and in need of a tb that a mystery but their is a tb horse in this country on the up
		
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That's not really a proposal though my rebellious mountaineering friend. I like Classic Vision. Hell, I have a broodmare by Classic Vision but reality is, he won't sire a international showjumper that will compete at the highest levels and pull our studbook back up. If Classic Vision only ever bred fillies, who in turn only ever bred fillies that would be a good thing. Like some of the stallions being mentioned here and there are never never never produce the goods. It's not like they're young horses. Stallions in their late teens should have some kind of Grand Prix performer or else be the dam sire of a GP performer. If they don't produce something of merit, they go on to my black list. Which is a pretty big list!!!

Please note, I am not slating Classic Vision. He's a fantastic model of a horse. Far more useful in a breeding program than 99% of Draught stallions. A far better looking Draught stallion than 99% of Draught stallions. Wonderful temperament and presence. He's always great to watch at the Bridge House Stud open days.

I do see what you're saying about using Irish stallions on our high class Irish mares. I think though, it'll be more likely to see part Irish stallions on them. Ringfort Cruise for example. It's going to be very easy to squander the progeny of these mares and the likes of Mo Chroi if the right stallions aren't used.

My own Classic Vision mare is taking a trip to Watermill Swatch this year. Regardless of what's thought of him, his foals are selling quite well. I'm saving up to put her in foal to Cabdula Du Tillard next year. He's by the Trakenher stallion Abdullah out of a Galoubet mare that is a half sister to Jalisco B, probably the most important mare line in France. I swear to God if she has a colt by Cabdula, I'll cry like a baby! Filly please.



newlook said:





I am new to this forum but am very entertained by the different views from all breeders...  This last one spurred me to respond. Three decent competition mares like those deserve decent stallions. I think the thought of Classic Vision is an insult to those mares, and it is one way of breeding the jump 'out' of the mares!  Cruisings Mickey Finn is a good horse for sure, but I think they need more scope from the stallion side - something like Russel II is the job for them!  Has to be one of the best horses to ever stand in Ireland, and has pedigree & performance, how many stallions acan boast 14 Nations Cups, World Championships, European Championships, Puissance, Six Bars, Olympics etc.. and  Ireland are lucky enough to get 1st proper chance to gain his progeny! And his foals I have seen are smashers...  Other option is  Iroko, another serious horse from same stud.
		
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Welcome to the discussion NewLook. It's good to see new opinions being added to the mix. Especially since some of the earlier stalwarts of this thread have left it.

I hope the folk at Lissava are giving you a discount for flying the flag for them!
I really want to use Ringfort Cruise. I think he's a smashing horse. I was going to use him this year but there's a few stallions older than him that I want to use first. Thankfully he's only 13 and I hopefully have a couple of years to get to him!!! 

Iroko is another on my to use list. I know he's pretty old but I hope he sticks around for a bit longer. What a cracking horse. Beautiful beautiful animal.


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## QF-WEST (14 May 2010)

Has Courage (HOLST) been standing in Ireland long? He has pedigree and performance and size (170cms-which should suit a lot of the compact Irish mares).
His dam 'Vamara' is a full sister to Cavalier Royale which is VERY interesting.

Is he producing many noteworthy horses in Ireland? or has anybody used him?


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## Eothain (14 May 2010)

Nice horse. A decent number of horses jumping in young horse classes. Has a few jumping 1.35m - 1.40m. He is however, dead!


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## Irishlife (14 May 2010)

Eothain said:



			Welcome to the discussion NewLook. It's good to see new opinions being added to the mix. Especially since some of the earlier stalwarts of this thread have left it.

QUOTE]

As an earlier stalwart just checking in to say stalwartdom will be resumed in due course.

Personally, I am waiting for the stallion inspection results to be published to see the shakedown. Some stallion owners are not happy overall with the new process. It is a competitive business and one owner was complaining to me his stallion scored higher than his neighbours stallion on conformation and some other traits yet only got Class 1 and the other horse got Prelim Approved. But this is the whole point of the linear scoring it is an overall assessment covering performance, conformation, movement and jumping ability. Lots of grumbling that RIDs shouldn't be made to jump - I disagree they should jump within the parameters set for horses of that type. What use is there having stallions that for traditional Irish breeding are meant to be the bedrock if we don't know what they are like over a pole?  Some RID stallions jump, some don't but I do believe it has to be tested.

Neighbour said his horse was put down the jumping lane 9 times. To me, this indicates a) the horse was not properly prepared, b) the inspectors were trying to give it every chance to perform c) the horse was stopping or knocking poles. I wasn't there but the results will be interesting.

On another point, a stud near me has EVA - bad times 2 stallions affected and 8 or 9 mares. As yet I don't know which stud but there would not be that many to pick from in Co Mayo.

Iroko - Fabulous
Courage - Ditto

Denise
		
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## BallyshanHorses (14 May 2010)

Denise a friend of mine took a stallion and he was more than happy with what they had said to him.His stallion did not get approved but he said that everything the judges told him good or bad was agreed with wholeheartedly by himself.The stallion has since been gelded which is exactly what should happen if not up to scratch.The Linear scoring will take a bit of getting used to but people have to accept what they have in front of them may not be worth keeping as a stallion and I have to agree that ID stallions should have to show their usefullness over a pole even if it is downgraded in height to prove that they have some technique.What happens then to the people that believe that they can produce a jumper from an ID stallion that has no technique at all and never had to show his usefullness at the gradings.They will be barking up a very big tree and definately the wrong one.


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## Irishlife (14 May 2010)

Hi Ballyshan - firstly Russell Junior is looking well, nice to see his progress.


I do think also the linear scoring approach will be beneficial in the long run. I know some people who didn't present for inspection this year at 3yo pending what the outcome was from this round of inspections. Some I believe are heading for the SEIS book and by passing IHB. Still, those are the choices we have now. It won't be so easy for some owners to get mares if they are tagged "Not recommended for breeding" it is quite a stigma but is also a truthful assessment based on the process. It is possible therefore that some may well be approved in other "approved" studbooks recognised by Ireland even though they didn't pass the IHB inspection. 

I will be watching the next few years with interest.  It should result in only the best going forward for inspection and a more selective approach by stallion breeders about what they present. Interesting times.

I think as Hilly said before, lets hope it doesn't result in a lot of backyard and under the radar breeding and we end up with a glut of poor stock going begging by non approved stallions.


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## rebel mountain (14 May 2010)

Eothain said:



			That's not really a proposal though my rebellious mountaineering friend.
		
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i am called after the stallion your favorite breedRIDhow reccntly had champion yearling in balmoral show
i love those prettyboys lol


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## BallyshanHorses (14 May 2010)

Thanks Denise for the compliment.
I think the new approval system is the best thing The Irish Horse Board have done for ages.It gives clear and consise requirements as to what criteria your stallion should adhere to and I,like you will be very interested to see what pans out as a result.


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## Eothain (14 May 2010)

I also have to laugh when I see people complain about how expensive it's going to be to get horses approved, sorry, Recommended For Breeding. A good stallion should be competing in all the classes the HSI has recommended. Dublin, ISH classes, Cavan, Nationals etc. It's no more expensive to get horses approved now than it has been to get stallions a name in the past.  I don't see what all the moaning is about.

I'd love to see the HSI stop issuing passports for stallions who only get preliminary approval and don't do anything other than that. Why would stallion owners protest like that? What gives them the right? They either bite their bottom lip and row in behind the HSI or row somewhere else if they're that opposed to change for the better. I've said it to stallion owners already and I'll surely say it again. When it comes to the new approval system, stop crying and if your horse isn't good enough, start gelding.

It won't be too long before we see who wins in the SIES/ISH battle. The ISH was #11 in the WBFSH rankings in 2009. The AES was #24. Who's to say that the daughter society of the AES will fare any better?


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## rebel mountain (14 May 2010)

it can not be easy on stallion owners either have to buy /breed the horse get them approved convince breeders to use him advertising him
without the expense of jumping him and what about the lad how paid big money for his horse can he sink another 20grand into him to bring to the top

let me just add clover hill was never jumped maybe eothain you should have a picture of him on your page


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## Eothain (15 May 2010)

Fair point. Clover Hill was never jumped. Errigal Flight hunted as a 4 year old and did no more. Contender jumped only up to 1.20 but as Jan Greve says, there's no such thing as a freak showjumper. If a horse's parents never jumped but produced a world class horse then who's to say that the parents wouldn't have been world class if they had been asked.
That's the great thing about Irish people, they will always always always give you an example of an exception to the rule. If the HSI adopted that policy in today's market, where do you think we'd really be headed. Answer with head, not heart please!

I had another example of a typical Irish trait about horses, but I forget it. I'll post it again some other time.

How many more stallions never competed that got progeny jumping at the highest level? Not too many. I for one, will not take a stallion owner's word or another person's word that some random stallion is a "great horse that gets mighty jumpers". Yeah, mighty horses to jump some poxy tree trunk out hunting maybe! Coloured poles on those god forsaken flat cups are a different story.

It can't be easy on stallion owners but you know, bad break, get over it. If they want to show their horse has merit and has some place in the market then let them do it in the ring. If the horse is any good, he won't be too long about making back the cost of his competition career in covering fees. Stallion owners will get no sympathy from me. Nor do I want sympathy from others when I eventually have a stallion or two at stud and believe me, if they can't do it in the ring, they'll be meeting Mr. Snips.

The fact is, this isn't a hobby industry anymore. Sport horse breeding is pretty big business. Yes, we're heavily subsidised but I guarantee you, if the subsidies were cut and people had to look at what they're doing as a business in itself, then 7/8s of the dirt that's out there would be gone. Stallion owners have to prove their horse's worth. So I don't want to see pictures of stallion's heads or side on views of them in the Farmers Journal or Irish Field. Put in a picture of them over a fence. Let us see them doing what it is we want their progeny to do. If that means some people will never be stallion owners because they can't afford it, so be it. Form a syndicate instead. Where there's a will, there's a way but if people are going to invest in a stallion, then make it count.

The fact is that jumping horses breed jumping horses. How many of the WBFSH Top 30 Showjumping Sires weren't high performers? There's the proof of the pudding. Not the Irish exception.


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## rebel mountain (15 May 2010)

you want a great horse who never jumped king of diamond or maybe if he doesn't fit the bill skyboy errigal flight or diamond serpant
these produced horses like diamond express skylight ado annie and diamond exchange
and if you sold a horse tomorrow would you wait six months sometimes 11 months for your money or not get it at all this is what stallions men have to go through
the answer with my head the HSI aren't right about everything far from itdo you think they are? and answer with your head


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## Eothain (16 May 2010)

I 100% believe that the HSI are doing the right thing with their new system and doing it well. I also think they're doing the right thing with the new Draught inspection system too. I hope neither of the Draught bodies get the studbook back. At least the HSI can rise above their petty power plays.

Did you just completely ignore my point about the WBFSH sire rankings?


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## GrassHorse (16 May 2010)

Carmena Z jumped double clear for Ireland in France. Hopefully a sign of things to come, success by crossing our best mares to the best warmblood stallions! Carmena Z is bred Carthago x Irco Mena x King of Diamonds. This is clear evidence that the WB/ISH cross is working. It will be great to have an Irish Horse jumping in the RDS for the Nations Cup. Or maybe some people in the audience will say " Ya can see the diamonds in him!"


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## Irishlife (16 May 2010)

GrassHorse said:



			It will be great to have an Irish Horse jumping in the RDS for the Nations Cup. Or maybe some people in the audience will say " Ya can see the diamonds in him!"
		
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I love this! It is so true.

Increasing genetic potential by examining 5th generation or even Twelth generation pedigrees and relations of those horses within the pedigrees as suggested by recent articles in the Irish Field, is what most enlightened breeders do anyway.  If other breeders are to be educated, it has not proved successful as most of the 5 day breeders courses to be run by Teasgc last year were cancelled due to lack of interest.  There again how many breeders do you know especially in Ireland who would consider they need educating???
Arrogance?? not really, horses and breeding are inborn skills to so many people here and those traditionalists that breed by knowledge handed down and by instinct and intuition would not have a notion of stuying GP and BLUP. 

So there you go.


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## Irishlife (16 May 2010)

Just remembered, in relation to the World rankings, our major decline has been from 2004. What is the explanantion for that? According to the esteemed genetic evaluation experts, this is because the genetic potential of Irish horses has been developing much more slowly than our counterparts because we do not have a scientific approach and evaluation system in the same way they do.  Hence the KWPN looky likey inspections.

So there is hope we can catch up but not any time soon and not in a climate where the new is treated with suspicion. Does that matter? Not really, the elite breeders will BLUP until they burst and keep following the "Holy Grail" of an Olympic show jumper, others will breed their hunters,RIDs,CPs, bread and butters, trotters, gypsy cobs, TBs, useful 1.20 sporthorses and Vive la Difference. That is what makes Irish horses so great. We have been deriding them for not succeeding at showjumping when they succeed in every other area of sport so all credit to them and thier breeders.

We are also forgetting that the RID is on a watch list because numbers are so small so yes to preserve the breed they do need to be bred for their own sake but in a right way - this is however part of a wider environmental discussion. 

OK lazy Sunday rant over - !!!!!!


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## rebel mountain (16 May 2010)

Irishlife said:



			i my opinion the irish draught is getting to plain i think the draught society should allow full draught mares to breed to a tb and the fillies these mares breed should be ranked an A.I.D to enject some quality back in to the breed

like clover hill he was by a tb
		
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## Irishlife (16 May 2010)

Rebel, 

I agree there are some plain old things around but as it stands there is a permitted amount of TB blood in RIDs and if we go too blood we get half breds, then it is game over for RID's.

I think once more it comes down to needing to evaluate your ID mare and then choose the best partner for her instead of following the yellow brick road to whichever RID won at the RDS/got top dollar at the sales/Jumped on the Irish team. It is possible to breed quality stock and you know immediately which they are just by looking at them before looking at any pedigree information.

It is one of the sticking points with the ID people on the performance vs tradition type for IDs. When it is done right, there is no better horse than a smashing RID.


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## Eothain (17 May 2010)

GrassHorse said:



			Carmena Z jumped double clear for Ireland in France. Hopefully a sign of things to come, success by crossing our best mares to the best warmblood stallions! Carmena Z is bred Carthago x Irco Mena x King of Diamonds. This is clear evidence that the WB/ISH cross is working. It will be great to have an Irish Horse jumping in the RDS for the Nations Cup. Or maybe some people in the audience will say " Ya can see the diamonds in him!"
		
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Very true!!! What a pedantic race of people we Irish are, in that respect at least!!!

Did any one see the live stream of the La Baule GP? H&M Actrice jumped absolutely fantastically for Malin Bayard Johnson. It's truly wonderful to have a horse like Actrice's sire, Ars Vivendi at stud in Ireland. It might be worth mentioning that Ars Vivendi's stable mate Harlequin Du Carel was also represented at La Baule by Dorada. It's great to see two stallions at the same stud in Ireland having progeny represent them at the highest level like that. Just don't mention that one of the stallions is French and the other a Holsteiner 

Credit must also be given to Michael Quirke for having the vision to stand stallions of that calibre. www.ballymureenstud.com Credit must also go to whom ever designed such a delightful website. Take a bow Grasshorse!



Irishlife said:



			That is what makes Irish horses so great. We have been deriding them for not succeeding at showjumping when they succeed in every other area of sport so all credit to them and their breeders.

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Meh. My motto is; If you're not first, you're last. There's no second place. Just first and first of the losers!!! Perhaps I'm a little too competitive! 



Irishlife said:



			When it is done right, there is no better horse than a smashing RID.
		
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Really?


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## Irishlife (17 May 2010)

"Meh" and "Really?" - Don't know the first word, and the second seemed loaded with sarcasm. Hope I'm wrong.

In context, my referral to nothing better than a smashing RID did not say "as an Olympic showjumper!"  

Please exchange "RID" for any horse breed you like.The same statement can be applied to any sort of horse whether Connemara, Welsh, KWPN, TB or Percheron that is a shining example of its type.


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## Eothain (17 May 2010)

It was loaded with sarcasm. Only because I'm trying to inject a wee touch of humour back into this thread. I presume no one wants the feel good tone of this thread to completely disappear!!!

Now, having said that, I know "they" say sarcasm is the lowest form of wit but like any horse that is true to it's breed type, when done right, there's not a whole lot better than a bit of sarcasm!!!

I do agree with you by the way!


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## GrassHorse (17 May 2010)

Eothain said:



			Credit must also be given to Michael Quirke for having the vision to stand stallions of that calibre. www.ballymureenstud.com Credit must also go to whom ever designed such a delightful website. Take a bow Grasshorse!

QUOTE]
Yes! Michael Quirke deserves alot of credit for bringing such good horses to Ireland. Harlequin makes lovely horses. Im a big fan! The Quirke's are decent too! So easy to do business with. 

The people who own a stallion have a lot to do with the stallion reaching its potential?
		
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## AdAblurr (17 May 2010)

I have been quietly following this fascinating thread for some time - listening and learning, as it were. Irishlife, thanks for saying what I was just thinking!



Irishlife said:



			<SNIP>When it is done right, there is no better horse than a smashing RID.
		
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## Irishlife (18 May 2010)

Welcome

I think we have all gained something from this thought-provoking thread. It has been a joy to participate in.

I looked at your lovely horses on your website. Touch of the Blues is a real showstopper and of course he has renowned back breeding as well as reputation. Your young stallion certainly has his dad's stamp and looks to be producing some useful youngsters. 

As you probably read pages back in the thread , we turned to the subject of American hunter/jumpers and the view there was that continental warmbloods were filling that role as well these days. What has been your experience? Do you produce for the hunter/jumper market? 

Did John Joyce come over for your stallion inspections?

Sorry about all the questions, just curious and it is always interesting to have another perspective.


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## rebel mountain (18 May 2010)

The people who own a stallion have a lot to do with the stallion reaching its potential?[/QUOTE]

i 100% agree with you the stallion has to get mares to produce a champion so the stallion owner has to let the breeders know he is there


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## AdAblurr (18 May 2010)

Thank you for the welcome! I have been loathe to stick my nose into a conversation that (although I have a burning interest!) I feel I'm an outsider to the subject and to the markets and policies of all of the people involved.

Ollie's dad, TOTB, is a legend in my estimation, a super producer, with 8 living stallion sons graded RID, and his daughters are really wonderful. His owners, Simone and Doug Mackay, are salt of the earth types, terrific people.

We found our boy when I went searching for his sire with the thought of breeding to him. At that time, Flynn (TOTB) had been sold on from Penmerryl and had literally disappeared. I did, however, find a photo of a perfectly darling colt foal by him who was for sale. Printed the photo, held it up in front of Hubby's nose, and within an hour we had contracted to buy the colt - we had been looking for THAT horse for over 16 years 

I do think that Ollie's dam's family has a great deal to do with his quality, as well - that mare has been a super producer, and her family really puts a great hind end on their stock - something that we (my husband Rick and I) simply must have, both of us coming from a Quarter Horse - stock horse background as kids.

Fast forward, past the long years of watching in horror as the foal of our dreams passed all too slowly through the infamous ugly duckling stages of a purebred ID growing up, to finally, today at age six, become the horse we first saw in that 5 day old foal. 

He was inspected and approved RID in Canada at age three, as we are members of and he is dual registered with IDHS Canada and IDHSNA. His inspectors were Michael Ryan and John Joyce. We were so very gratified to have these two lovely gentlemen tell us just how good they believed our colt was, they were quite taken with the boy and spent a very long time just hanging around his stall gazing at him.

We are ecstatic (not too florid a term) with the quality he has produced on both our Thoroughbred mares and in his first purebred filly out of Mac's Colmerin RID. He managed to do what no other stallion ever has for our mares, that is to really stamp both fillies with his look, type, quality and temperament. The purebred filly is really smashing, a perfect example of her breed, square as a little brick, grand mover, wonderful neck, pretty little head and what a powerhouse! He really improved that particular rather plain little mare, and we have just bred her back for another - and hoping for another filly  

Only one foal is expected this year, another purebred from the wonderful old mare Suma's Keepsake RID. Praying hard for a filly from that cross! 

We do raise horses to suit the hunter or jumper markets, as well as eventing - the bulk of American eventers tend to be errr,,,, well, cheap. They draw mostly from the off-track TB supplies, which seem to be bottomless. While I fail to see the sense in buying a reject with unknown soundness issues, and then pouring a huge amount of money into it, rather than buying a purpose bred sound young horse for the same long term dollar amount, well, it's their money. 

The jumper people "like Irish horses", but will spend more money for a cull that they can tout as "imported" over buying an American bred ISH. Again, not necessarily common sense at work, but just the way it is. I hear that Americans are the butt of many jokes among Europeans for being gullible enough to buy virtually anything shown to them, but can't comment personally on that!

Hunters are pretty much a fashion show here regardless of the breed. Horse has to go "just so" and present a picture - rider must also present a picture, and it is funny to see one teeter straight off the horse while holding onto their "perfect pose". There is a lot of work going toward bringing back the classic American hunter - along with courses that actually require the horse and rider to have talent - but until we start teaching our kids to RIDE again, the fashion show will continue, I'm afraid.

As for the Warmbloods dominating - well, perhaps, but part of that is the sheer numbers of horses sold and bought. When we took a load of our Irishbreds in to last fall's Northwest Sporthorse Breeders Association Breeders Classic show series, we kicked some serious Warmblood butt. Our two year old ISH colt was Champion Dressage Breeding 2YO colt of the show - beating out all breeds; Ollie's first daughter was Champion Hunter Breeding filly under both judges. On only points earned in open classes (ie, against all breeds, not breed restricted) the Irish horses took home year end regional championships as well. It was a good year in the Northwest for the Irish horses. 

The purebreds, of course, do not compete well against the purpose bred dressage breeds, but we always take our stallion along just to exhibit him - educating people as to just where our great ISH youngsters are coming from. It's the minds of these horses that draw people!

We are full up here, so sadly the mares are standing open - youngsters, even though they are wearing championships and are nicely started, are simply not moving. Our regional economy (we are in the far northwest of the USA) is truly awful, and even the easterners are not really buying much - and then they expect to get good horses for little money. Still, we do get a few inquiries from folks who say they just can't find the quality they are looking for in the east, so hopefully, we will move a couple of the four year olds this summer. Raising horses from foals to finished is a long term project, and anyone who thinks otherwise is simply not being realistic!

My God, I'm sorry, didn't mean to write a book. I'll crawl back under my rock now 

Thanks again for the welcome!


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## Irishlife (18 May 2010)

What a wonderful insight to Irish horses in the U.S. Thank you. Very glad to hear the ISH's kicking some warmblood butt.

Here as well, the economy is presenting not so happy days for Irish breeders. Quality is still moving but in all areas aggregate is down and across all markets even the Connemaras which usually hold steady for fillies.  Wish you luck with moving a few on.

Penmerryls Rhythm & Blues by TOTB stands in Cork, his damsire is Snowford Bellman. Another black stallion who I think is super. I am not sure he gets that many mares though, someone I am sure will be able to tell us.

I watched a good few hunter/jumper videos on You Tube and it seemed very robotic. It is a very distinctive style and the horses go very smoothly but it seems almost "surreal". I am sure there is great time and effort put into the schooling and the style of the riders.  

I suppose one way to look at the ex-racer TB event market is it gives them a second chance at life but equally it seems there is little value to them so therefore disposable? Certainly, eventers are bred to be just that here and also with the sorts of young horses you are breeding.

Do you have many visiting mares for Ollie or do you just breed your own.  Like you I tend to "keep" my young ones until they are going on at four or so. Even then sometimes don't sell them - foolish and sentimental thats me!


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## AdAblurr (18 May 2010)

In reading my previous tome of a comment I do sound a bit tough on the US Eventer folks - but honestly, most of the lower level people do seem to pour an awful lot of good money after bad on horses that are heading noplace but downhill as to their soundness and usefulness. Why not spend 15-20 thousand on a GOOD horse and then just train and care wisely and get on with eventing the horse, instead of putting your vet's kids through grad school trying to keep a wreck going!

"robotic"... what a great name for a fancy show hunter. Same trip, round after round, never varying, never bobbling....

So, Rhythm and Blues is back in his home in Ireland? Last time I paid attention I had heard he was in Germany for a spell. Glad he's back where he belongs! Handsome horse. His damsire Bellman just retired officially over here, they had a ceremony and everything. Tony Phillips still has the old guy, he's looking very well. Bellman, is, that is. Tony looks just like Tony 

We'd love to have a few more mares to Ollie, and are a tiny bit surprised by the lack of interest in him from the purebred breeders on this side of the pond - there is a cultish notion of "rare bloodline" and "more compact ID" going on over here, and as Ollie is not truly all rare bloodlines, nor is he small (16:3 and a bit) they seem happy to ignore his quality and that of his first crop. Possibly breed politics comes into it - yes, we do have a bit of that here, as there is elsewhere!

I guess we shall keep using him, as we do believe he's the heart and soul of what a good Draught should be - just our own opinion, obviously. Wish his inspectors were able to see how well he turned out!


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## Irishlife (19 May 2010)

Don't worry, the next time I see John I will be sure to point him at your website and tell him of the good reports. He would be delighted I am sure to hear progress.

I think here also, they are encouraging RID breeders to widen the gene pool and yes, there does seem a trend toward more sport/performance types of RIDs. Yes here, a lot is politics driven too. I am no expert on RIDs but love them dearly and have a splosh of King of Diamonds and Clover Hill in my ISH's but as people tend to drift in and out of this thread, some of the RID folk will be having a good chat with you to bring you up to speed on matters RID here.

I am sure once Ollie's offspring are out and doing he will have more "brides" from the outside.


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## rebel mountain (20 May 2010)

congrats  to everyone involve is this thread on its 500 post


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## Simsar (21 May 2010)

We will have something to say soon promise!!!!!!!!!!!  Have you missed us?  Don't answer that!


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## Eothain (21 May 2010)

I've been twiddling my thumbs waiting for your opinion. This had be better be an epic post!!!


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## merrypath (22 May 2010)

My opinion...How "good" news for you is BAD news for Irish Draughts. 

I am an American who purchased a filly from Ireland, Eddy Corbett specifically...and now have 8 purebreds. It sounds like many of you would be horrified to hear that many of us in North America went to Ireland and Great Britain to deliberately purchase traditional type Irish Draughts.  We deliberately purchased stallions and mares of diverse bloodlines, most deliberately avoided King of Diamonds and Clover Hill (for reasons of diversity). Many of us were looking for a very competent, sane, sound, athletic, all-purpose horse and not a top level jumper or eventer. I think it is safe to say that nearly all of us have been surprised at the athletic ability of the traditional type Irish Draughts as if you read posts like the one here you would come away thinking that the sole reason for the demise of the Irish Sport Horse is the taint of the Irish Draught blood in their veins. I have Irish Draughts, I know this is stinkin' thinkin'. 

Far more benefit would be found for Irish Sport Horse breeders if they looked to themselves for the problems they have found competing with the continental warmblood. Marketing of horses by breeders is really terrible. In this internet world they have fallen seriously behind. To try to get photos from an Irish breeder is painful. Then the quality of the photos indicates the amount of effort the breeder put into the photos. Then they have a whole nuther price for Americans...we don't like that. The polished presentation of the continental warmblood is not just more pleasant to see but it is easier to see what you need to to make a decision. The quality of video a purchaser needs to see is a far cry from what I am seeing. Walk and canter and jump...no trot...not only is dressage the "D" word in Ireland but trot is the "T" word. Never seen or spoken of. 

The level of training a young horse has recieved...you are pretty well able to judge the basics and even go right into the show ring with a German warmblood from the sale barns in Europe, Their trainers and riders are so well developed that the horses they produce are much easier to market...you need to develop the training of trainers to improve the "D" basics, the horses you have bred are very capable dressage horses. They can develop a show record without going 100 miles away from home base...so can you. They have breeders who specialize in stallions, owners who speciallize in producing foals, who specialize in youngsters, who specialize in, finished dressage, finished eventer, finished jumpers, riders who only compete at the top levels...you USED to do this but the education of the riders seemed to stall.  

In America we have SUCH great distances and we are finding it very expensive to produce horses like the Germans and the Dutch. In Ireland you COULD have an advantage but the level of education you need to produce horses competitive with continental warmloods seems to be ignored...easier to blame the Draught blood than shake up your rider education system, make a marketing plan, create good photos and videos, deal with the flat work("D") phobia. There is no reason the ISH shouldn't stay on top of the eventing world but the standard of gaits will be higher...the Irish Draught can have a wonderful trot and brain for dressage you needn't seek out a warmblood to improve a TB trot or dressage performance. Stop ruining the Irish Draught to "improve" the ISH. You would not be dealing with the real problem in Ireland and you would lose an asset. PatO


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## gadetra (22 May 2010)

Yes I think we do appreciate the quality of the RID as an all purpose riding horse and there's nothing better that an Irish bred to cross country with-in my opinion!

On a different note what think ye of the new Irish warmblood studbooks?I've said this before but i really don't see the point of separate studbooks for 'continental' bred Irish horses. Why not just improve the grading system of the ISH studbook? I think the traffic light system is a great idea, an open and transparent grading process that rightly rewards the good horse. 

So why the extra studbooks? Why does anyone feel the ISH is not sufficent? Is it not just a pointless name for the sake of the 'warmblood' tag and a few extra &#8364;&#8364;&#8364;'s?
I'm open to enlightenment!!


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## Bootsod (22 May 2010)

I have to say I agree with Merry Path. The marketing of Irish horses is terrible. It is really hard to get good pictures of stallions standing in Ireland, never mind videos. The same can be said of sale horses. Venues like Cavan, Goresbridge etc should have videos attached, also there should be much better sales sites. I live in the States and people will travel if they know what they are going to see. The German/French marketing is sooo much better. The standard of riding is so much higher also. In the case of German dressage horses they are all working in a frame and doing flying changes, shoulder in etc. Irish horses are more than capable of doing all these things but they need to be produced. Instead a picture is offered, the horse is lucky to have had a bath.


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## AdAblurr (22 May 2010)

Bootsod said:



			<SNIP> I live in the States and people will travel if they know what they are going to see. The German/French marketing is sooo much better. The standard of riding is so much higher also. In the case of German dressage horses they are all working in a frame and doing flying changes, shoulder in etc. Irish horses are more than capable of doing all these things but they need to be produced. Instead a picture is offered, the horse is lucky to have had a bath.
		
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There is a portion of the US horse buyer segment that will pay more for that "imported" label, and then pay the freight ($10,000-$15,000 for a mature horse) to do the shipping and quarantine to get said overpriced animal over here on top of that! Thus, the separate pricing points for US buyers that Merrypath mentions are well-earned by us, I think 

Honestly, you all may just keep on with the lackluster marketing - it will help us out! We have some outstanding IDSH horses coming up now on this side of the Atlantic, and it would help to sell our own if yours were A: too darn pricey, and, B: presented poorly.

Hey Bootsod, in what part of the US are you living?


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## Irishlife (22 May 2010)

This is what I love about this thread, it ebbs and flows and introduces a different dynamic almost every day!!

Well when I was visiting with an esteemed ID inspector the other evening, he was telling of a super young ID that was purchased from the USA by an Irish breeder and when he was presented to the Irish Society was not passed. It seemed to him that politics had a large part to play. The fact he was not passed is not relevant to the point I wish to make, it is only made to say a person who is looking for a good horse of a given type/breed will travel anywhere to purchase that animal. I am sure this was not the first and won't be the last Irish horse purchased from America - it works both ways.

>Production and marketing - agreed absolutely no contest with Europe or USA.

>Riders of quality, style and experience to bring on the new wave of Irish horses - completely lacking. We need multi-disciplinary riders who are able to show every young horse jumping basic courses, competent flatwork for age and a few cross country fences thrown in. I have never expected less off any horse that I go out to purchase as a "made" horse, all rounder or showjumper.  

Too many riders training horses are not educated in the basics and it is fast turnover "quick fix" stuff . They think training a young horse in show jumping is to get it going with its neck bent into its chest and doing flying changes, no development of the trot or walk. If it jumps a course of fences trailing its hocks out behind it, behind the bit - job done. (Rant over -seen it too many times).

I don't think anybody is looking at the "ruination" of Draught Horses, there has been a lot of politics between the draught people especially regarding performance testing. As an all-rounder type and a foundation breed, I believe a draught should jump in assessments within the parameters set for its breed - clearly a Draught will not be asked to jump 1.30 or 1.40 under saddle or down a jumping lane (although many would be capable) instead they should be able to show technique and style over 1.0m say for potential mare owners or buyers.  There seem to be many more lighter-boned more performance orientated draughts here than ever before. I asked the question "do we have any draught horses in this country that have 10.5 inches of bone" to an expert - he thought hard and said maybe one or two!!! (Ref to Adbarr's lovely stallion).


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## Eothain (22 May 2010)

Wow! Where to begin? I'll be back to this when I've time. The debatory juices are flowing once more!!!


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## AdAblurr (23 May 2010)

Irishlife said:



			This is what I love about this thread, it ebbs and flows and introduces a different dynamic almost every day!!

Well when I was visiting with an esteemed ID inspector the other evening, he was telling of a super young ID that was purchased from the USA by an Irish breeder and when he was presented to the Irish Society was not passed. It seemed to him that politics had a large part to play. 

<SNIP> 

I don't think anybody is looking at the "ruination" of Draught Horses, there has been a lot of politics between the draught people especially regarding performance testing. As an all-rounder type and a foundation breed, I believe a draught should jump in assessments within the parameters set for its breed - clearly a Draught will not be asked to jump 1.30 or 1.40 under saddle or down a jumping lane (although many would be capable) instead they should be able to show technique and style over 1.0m say for potential mare owners or buyers.  There seem to be many more lighter-boned more performance orientated draughts here than ever before. I asked the question "do we have any draught horses in this country that have 10.5 inches of bone" to an expert - he thought hard and said maybe one or two!!! (Ref to Adbarr's lovely stallion).
		
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Was this stallion you mentioned the lovely chestnut with white socks, who was inspected and passed as RID in the USA? Then sold to Ireland, and graded down to S-1 upon his Irish inspection? Yes, that was a very odd situation to say the very least. That particular horse had won the RDS Championship shortly prior to his re-inspection and disapproval. Things that make you go "Hmmmm."

When my husband and I first "got into" Irish horses, we had not seen enough of them to realize that what we were being shown as "great examples" were, in fact, lighter than the breed standard and more of a sporthorse model - or as it's put in some circles, a "modern type" of ID horse. We  have since educated ourselves better, hence our search for and purchase of the stallion we presently own and love. He's quite a traditional type, with a great set of pure clean gaits and a nice big jump - nice technique too. And yes, that 10.5 inch cannon is for real - he's actually a bit over that, but I'm not quibbling. Just very pleased he stopped growing when he did, as grooming while teetering on a bucket is strenuous.
Hopefully this summer I can actually haul my creaking carcass aboard and actually RIDE him  if not show - money is an object this year.

Oh, and it's AdAblurr - reference a dearly loved old TB gelding of ours


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## Bootsod (23 May 2010)

Adablurr, I'm actually living in Boston, but am from Ireland and have a mare there and a horse here. Its all very complicated, but I go back and forth a lot.


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## rebel mountain (23 May 2010)

When my husband and I first "got into" Irish horses, we had not seen enough of them to realize that what we were being shown as "great examples" were, in fact, lighter than the breed standard and more of a sporthorse model - or as it's put in some circles, a "modern type" of ID horse. We  have since educated ourselves better, hence our search for and purchase of the stallion we presently own and love. He's quite a traditional type, with a great set of pure clean gaits and a nice big jump - nice technique too. And yes, that 10.5 inch cannon is for real - he's actually a bit over that, but I'm not quibbling. Just very pleased he stopped growing when he did, as grooming while teetering on a bucket is strenuous. [/QUOTE]

i don't see why people have a problem with the modern type of ID 
i know in the beginning draughts were used to do the farm work all week then 
take their owner hunting on a sunday but farmers now have tractors to pull a plough
the irish draught is now required to show,show jump,dessage,hunt,hack out or event we don't need them to pull a plough any more i am in favour of the quality ID


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## Irishlife (23 May 2010)

AdAblurr said:



			Was this stallion you mentioned the lovely chestnut with white socks, who was inspected and passed as RID in the USA? Then sold to Ireland, and graded down to S-1 upon his Irish inspection? Yes, that was a very odd situation to say the very least. That particular horse had won the RDS Championship shortly prior to his re-inspection and disapproval. Things that make you go "Hmmmm."

Yes, that is the one! Hmmm indeed, have known stallions go before the panel up to four times before getting their stamp!!

Oh, and it's AdAblurr - reference a dearly loved old TB gelding of ours 

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AdAblurr - apologies, sleepy finger syndrome!!


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## AdAblurr (24 May 2010)

Rebel Mountain, I NEVER said there was anything wrong with a "modern" ID. We just don't prefer them. I have a several young halfbreds with as much (or more) bone and substance  than a whole pile of RID horses I can name - check out Lucky Punch, who at three is 16:3 and stands over a 10 inch cannon. It's simply that our personal belief is that breeding the bone out of the Irish Draught is not the road we care to take. 

Of course it's all conjecture on our part here - we have but one purebred, our stallion. Our mares are Thoroughbreds, selected for sport pedigree, conformation including great feet   and superb athleticism and temperament. We breed sporthorses, ISH. HOWEVER, if God is good to us and we ever could get a good Draught mare, we'd still not be breeding any 8 inch cannons under a 16+ hand horse. Heck, my senior stallion, who is a Quarter Horse standing all of 14:1-1/2 hands, has an 8.5 inch cannon. We simply can't condone breeding lighter legged animals for sport that uses them so hard.

Sorry if I got your dander up, but possibly "quality" means something different to you than it does to me? that old language barrier again?


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## rebel mountain (24 May 2010)

i am not in the least bit annoyed i just can't understand why you would rather breed a heavy boned full ID when you can breed the finer type ID who is more capable is most equine aspecks
just my opinion


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## Simsar (24 May 2010)

I think this takes us back to some of the original posts that there is room for the two, the heavier more traditional and the lighter more modern draught!! You can't have the lighter without the heavier otherwise the ID will end up as just another sportshorse, when in actual fact it is a good base line to breed sporthorses from!!


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## rebel mountain (26 May 2010)

i agree with you the ISH needs the ID and the TB but my question to the ISH breeders is where is this TB horse like the ones we used to have?where is the skyboy or ozmandis of this century?


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## Eothain (27 May 2010)

That's a very simple answer. The Irish thoroughbred industry used to be the joke that the Sport Horse industry is at the moment. A little-known chap by the name of Vincent O'Brien revolutionised the entire industry from top to toe leaving no stone unturned in the mean time!
The thoroughbred industry later became the global powerhouse it is today and though forward thinking in breeding circles, the thoroughbred phenotype changed. The big rangy National Hunt horses if yesteryear disappeared as the breeding became constantly upgraded.
National Hunt sires these days are horses than ran in staying flat races. The old Chasing horses died out. There are few, if any, stallions running in jump racing these days and no, poxy hurdle races don't count!
We don't have access to the blood horses we need. Therefore it must come from some where else. The thoroughbred stallions we need in the future will be thoroughbred stallions that showjump or event or do dressage themselves. We can no longer look to the racing business for help to breed showjumpers. They've moved on.

Now, please don't do the typical Irish thing and give me one or two examples of thoroughbred stallions you know that race over jumps. I'm talking about on the whole here. You know, the big picture!

As for the standard of young horse production in Ireland and the usefulness of heavy plowhorses, oops, sorry I meant the general Irish Draught population, well I'll be back to that topic!!!


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## rebel mountain (28 May 2010)

in my opinion the horse just isn't out there because lets face it of mary mccann or stallion owners like her who have unlimited resources can't find the TB horses this country needs then maybe their just not out there


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## Eothain (28 May 2010)

You're right. They're not out there. ... That's what I said and I explained why they're not out there!!!!!!


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## rebel mountain (28 May 2010)

what we need is a colt by presenting or a TB horse like him


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## Irishlife (29 May 2010)

This year, taking Mary McCanns cue and also because I have some potential customers in UK, ALL of my mares have been covered with a big upstanding Class 1 Connemara stallion so I will be looking at TBxCP, ISHxCP and TB/Warmblood/CP.

I am very excited by this decision as I have had some exceptional TBxCPs over the years and all were brilliant and there is always a market for them.  One of them was a champion show hunter, won 1DE, won Prelim Dressage champs, SJ 1.20, and he still hunts all winter. A more beautiful and hardy horse you would not wish to find.  More than "bread and butter" less than elite showjumper but a "type hard to find" and I am looking forward already to next year's crop.  Something different but definitely very Irish!!

So I am a happy Irish breeder and have saved thousands on stud fees and better still, the stallion comes to the house to cover the mares. He has to stand on tip toe for one or two of them but seems to enjoy himself It has just been so easy this year. All of the mares had very late foals last year (July) so were left barren. Awaiting scanning results fingers crossed.


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## gadetra (29 May 2010)

I bred 2 out of my ISH mare before and they were the toughest, hardiest things going but had a lovely bit of quality too-quite refined actually and great temps. I used Coral Prince (by Murphy's Rebel). Which CP stallion did you use? I like the sound of this home-calling business!


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## Irishlife (29 May 2010)

The CP is Drymills Bridge Boy. He had a couple of wins at Clifden as a young chap and has been producing some good show stock but what does it for me is he is so laid back, his owner rides him to the shop in a headcollar and trailers him to your yard for covering if he likes you!! The stallion has manners to burn and has so much wow factor he looks 16hands and is very substantial and "spanish" looking.


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## rebel mountain (30 May 2010)

Irishlife said:



			This year, taking Mary McCanns cue and also because I have some potential customers in UK, ALL of my mares have been covered with a big upstanding Class 1 Connemara stallion so I will be looking at TBxCP, ISHxCP and TB/Warmblood/CP.
		
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what do you mean by this is it the cruising rumour your talking about?


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## gadetra (30 May 2010)

rebel mountain said:



			what do you mean by this is it the cruising rumour your talking about?
		
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there is a Cruising rumour? What is it? I'm intrigued now! 

In another post Mary McCann was quoted as saying the ISH is dead as a showjumper and the Selle Francais is catching up in the eventing sphere. And that the most marketable animal is a ConniexTB .


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## Irishlife (30 May 2010)

Hi Rebel,

I didn't know there was a Crusing rumour - what is it do tell???

Further back in the thread Hilly had attended a convention of some sort and Mary McCann was speaking there and she said she thought the most commercial horses at the moment were TB x CP's.  I have been breeding sporthorses for the last few years so have changed tack for this year and using a Connemara stallion to breed some good small show hunter/WHP sorts.


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## Eothain (30 May 2010)

Some people believe Cruising was sired by Ashfield Bobby Sparrow and not Seacrest.

I am not one of them!


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## Irishlife (30 May 2010)

Wow!! That is a new one on me. Surely the dna proved that one wrong. Still many a dash of Connemara in some of the good ones from yesteryear.

With any successful horse there are always multiple claims to fame. It is amazing how a top horse seems to have been bred by so many people in so many different counties!!!


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## rebel mountain (31 May 2010)

cruising was bred by the irish horse board i don't think they would have had a problem getting his DNA fixed
cruising can get a very small horse.He also has a pair of pony feet and ears and isn't it interesting mary mccann suggested that cross
ash bobby sparrow stood in the same yard as sea crest
at the time i think the old RID  need some publishing


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## Eothain (31 May 2010)

Ah now, do you really believe that? I mean doesn't Cruising look like such a Connemara cross? And what's more, with all his doubters and detractors, who to be honest need their heads examined, that say his temperament was this and his temperament was that, isn't it interesting that many Sea Crest horses are a touch iffy in the head. You, my Rebellious Mountaineering friend are going to say that a Connemara stallion produced a horse like Cruising but the typical eat-out-of-your-hand temperament was lost somewhere along the way?

Buddy, come out of the fog. I can't actually believe you'd say something like that. That's like suggesting Harristown Princess, Mo Chroi or Echo Beach should be covered with a Draught stallion!!!


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## Maesfen (1 June 2010)

Eothain said:



			Some people believe Cruising was sired by Ashfield Bobby Sparrow and not Seacrest.
		
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Thanks for making me laugh out loud, I nearly had tea all over the keyboard!   - not that I know whether they're right or not...........................
I love the way this thread has rumbled on with musings from one and all, it's like a get together of friends carrying on where they left off as if they've never been away; I'm pretty sure if we all met in real life it would be just the same.  Has to have been one of the most pleasant threads to read with the knowledge and humour which has been shared so a big thank you to everyone who has taken part, it's been a privilege.


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## librauk (1 June 2010)

Maesfen said:



			Thanks for making me laugh out loud, I nearly had tea all over the keyboard!   - not that I know whether they're right or not...........................
I love the way this thread has rumbled on with musings from one and all, it's like a get together of friends carrying on where they left off as if they've never been away; I'm pretty sure if we all met in real life it would be just the same.  Has to have been one of the most pleasant threads to read with the knowledge and humour which has been shared so a big thank you to everyone who has taken part, it's been a privilege.
		
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Ditto   well said


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## Irishlife (1 June 2010)

I simply love the fact there is a Cruising conspiracy - bring in the C.S.I.


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## gadetra (1 June 2010)

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha man that is Soooooo funny!!
I'd never heard of the Cruising conspiracy before-teee heee!! 
oh man i'm gonna need a moment to collect myself. That's hilarious...but who knows?
The mystery lives on do do do dooo (spooky music!)


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## rebel mountain (2 June 2010)

i now for a fact that ideal water was as mad as they come

sea crest get 358 foals he never produced one near as good a horse as cruising
carna bobby was a brillant pony he is sire to ashfield bobby sparrow


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## Eothain (2 June 2010)

... Lenamore? Sea Dancer? Steel Dust? Sir Rivie?

Steel Dust being Cruising's full brother, gelded and sent to America.

Of course none of them were nearly as good as Cruising, shir he's the best of all time!

Any other "evidence"?


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## Bearskin (2 June 2010)

Would have to put Lenamore above Cruising.......   Total superstar and although he has not won a World Cup, he has never jacked it in!


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## rebel mountain (2 June 2010)

did you ever think steel dust was actually by sea crest maybe thats why he wasn't as good
as far as sir rivie goes he came from a hell of good family his dam is a full sister to supreme ginger and with sir rivie being 2 years his elder supreme gingers progeny have racked up more sjai points


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## Eothain (2 June 2010)

I think the injury he sustained would have looked after that. I was doing a project on Cruising once when I was in Kildalton, I must dig it out and see what happened Steel Dust. I had to leave Kildalton so I never bothered finishing it.

Do you genuinely believe that the single greatest Irish-bred horse in the history of life is by a Connemara? That a Connemara stallion sired the winner of the Aachen Grand Prix? Really? Being serious now like! Not saying yes for divilment. Do you _really_ think Ashfield Bobby Sparrow sired Cruising? It's not too late to say you were only joking!


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## rebel mountain (3 June 2010)

i don't know and neither do you because the fact is you heard the rumour and i have heard the rumour i never once said i fully believed it but it would make alot of things make sence
the fact of the matter is there will never be peace on this subject because if it is in RDS or the steps in goresbridge their will always be some old man swearing that there is no way cruising is by sea crest
maybe me in 70 years time


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## Meg2 (4 June 2010)

I just want to say, I love this thread


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## rebel mountain (5 June 2010)

has anyone seen mccanns ramiro b horse he has a cracking pedigree even with the foreign blood


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## Eothain (5 June 2010)

Samjemgee?


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## GinnieRedwings (6 June 2010)

Here's one for Eothain's mare herd 

http://www.horsedeals.co.uk/horses-for-sale/broodmare/Two-Potential-Superstars-__29-4-10-673148


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## rebel mountain (6 June 2010)

thats the stallion he might cross well with your new prospect


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## GrassHorse (6 June 2010)

I have a good story about Cruising to tell. I will reveal all tomorrow! ( I need to get the facts right) Eothain, this will please you

On another note, There are new pictures of Sky Boy and Taldi on the Kiltealy Stud website. We all know about Sky Boy, an amazing horse. But what about Taldi? He died of colic before his time but what a legacy he left (or could have left) Twinkle Bee CCI4* completed Badminton and Church Road Jumping nations cup for Argentina 1.60m course! What a loss!


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## Eothain (6 June 2010)

Cruising = The reason I got into this business after finishing school.

I look forward to this story Grasshorse.

Rebel Mountain, can I call you Reb? It's shorter than typing out Rebellious Mountaineering friend. I brought up Samjemgee ages ago. Dublin 7 Year Old Champ 2009. Lanaken representitive 2009. Half brother to Flexible and Flexing out of former National Champion and by an International jumping stallion. What more could you ask for?


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## rebel mountain (7 June 2010)

you can call me reb

i didn't know mary mccann stud him because lets face it  she is one of those elite stallion owners in ireland who can make a medocre horse like great another is slyguff stud and kylemore stud


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## rebel mountain (10 June 2010)

this thread has slowed to a hault so i would just like to say how much i have enjoyed it


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## gadetra (11 June 2010)

Yes i have really enjoyed it too.
also Grasshorse what is this Cruising story? 
Don't keep us in suspense!!


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## gadetra (11 June 2010)

Also I mentioned this before but what do people think of the new warmblood studbooks?


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## Eothain (11 June 2010)

To be fair Reb, it's been mainly me and you keeping this going for a while. I reckon people have gotten a touch bored of it at this stage.

As for making mediocre stallions great, well there comes a time when stallions must stand on their own four hooves. It takes more than a stud to make a stallion great in my opinion.

As for the Warmblood books, well I know for a fact that the WSI is not interested in ever registering more than about 200 - 250 foals per year. It's almost a private studbook and to be honest, I wish them the very best of good luck. I can see myself signing up as a member at some stage to support them but I'll always be an ISH man. For the WSI is all about having a higher percentage of jumpers to foals registered than any other studbook. Their focus is second to none.

The SIES is a daughter of the AES and I must say, I was very excited about them earlier in the year but having seen their stallion approvals video, I have to say I was disappointed. I thought it to be a touch amateurish. I've a Baltimore foal to register with them this year and I do hope they become a success. Last year the AES was #24 in the WBFSH rankings for showjumpers. Who's to say the SIES will do any better? It does provide another registration outlet for breeders in Ireland however. That may be no bad thing


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## gadetra (11 June 2010)

The thing is do we need another registration outlet though? The ISH studbook has improved the last whil, what with the trafficlight system and new grading systems etc. so why not just keep on improing the one we have instead of opening up new studbooks i personally can't see the need for-the ish by nature is a warmblood anyway-Id cold, Tb hot and all the varieties and vageries inbetween. so why a separate warmblood studbook? the ish is changing, not just a straight tbxid and everyone knows that so what are the advantages of a competing studbook? surely we should be pooling our resources to make the ish a super ass kicking studbook a la the KWPN ?why are you registering your foal with them and not ish? what is the benefit? jus interested to know!


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## Eothain (11 June 2010)

Baltimore isn't registered with the ISH studbook so I can go AES or SIES because he's Approved Elite with them.

People have been giving out about the Horse Board/HSI for years now so with this new studbook after starting out they can take their ball and run over there.

As for the never-happy-unless-the're-giving-out-Irish Draught people, well it's my belief that they'll never be happy. With all the changes HSI has made to the ID Studbook and all the opportunities for crying that it presents to those _wonderful_ custodians of the breed, I can see them being a headache we'll have to put up with for a long time to come.

Can someone pass me the Neurofen?!!!


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## gadetra (11 June 2010)

ha ha yeah the ID people sure do keep the ISH on it's toes!! They're not really fans of change no offence to ID people out there!
I didn't know Baltimore wasn't ISH approved. Strange. Kind of shocking that you have to go to another studbook to register the little one though. It feels like they approve everything else sometimes...


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## Simsar (11 June 2010)

OK here we go, not quite sure where this is going to go so bare with me and sorry if I go of on tangents. Shouldn't have left this so long as have so much to say and so many questions to ask and answer that I don't know where to begin.


All the way through this thread I have felt soooooo much passion running from these pages and the common denominator is that all who have been involved with this thread want the same final outcome for the ISH (traditional or modern), but as we all know there is more than one way to skin a cat (or a horse in this case), there will ALWAYS be differences of opinions on how to get to that point, how we (by we I mean YOU over in Irelandnot me here in Surrey) got to that point in the past and what to do to change it now.

I would like to first start by pointing out that I have not once during this thread put any of the mentioned horses down, this is because I really do feel that all of them have a place as ISH's or in breeding them, my personal choice would not be to mix the WB's with ID's or IDx's but I do understand why people do and that it does produce a exceptional sport horse, as gadetra has said essentially the ISH is a WB anyway, but it is a specific WB that is the produce of Ireland and you (the Irish) should be proud of that fact.

It has been stated that to get the jump and agility back into the ISH that you need to add European WB (which as I understand it was based on the traditional ISH bred by your fore-fathers), surely adding a few more crosses of good TB as most of the EWB's have you would get the same outcome? 

This takes us onto the TB and where the good ones have all gone. Surely this is a prime example of what will happen to the ISH. It seems to me (but I will stand corrected) that the Irish TB has been selectively bred to produce predominantly small, weedy flat horses now and it is a struggle to find a good HIS type, big, upstanding TB stallion. This was a conscious decision at the time based on monetary gain and short-sightedness and now you have lost the substance and stamina that will be hard to put back. If the same happens to the ISH how many of you will be sitting there scratching your heads in 50 yrs time asking where did all those good ISH stallions go, as breeders you have to look further down the line than the next 15 years and what will be competing, there really is no quick fix in breeding!!

On to the ID. The ID as I see it should never have been pushed as a competition horse, it is a utility breed that can do many jobs well, but it was not originally bred for a sole purpose such as jumping, eventing etc. As a utility breed it should therefore be a good starting block from which to breed your competition horses when crossed with the TB (or EWB, ISH or whatever), but without those heavier more traditional types you will only end up like the Irish TB that so many of you have already stated are hard to come by now.

 Don't sacrifice the traditional ID or ISH or discard it as a has-been, take the equine knowledge that has been passed down through generation after generation and use it to your advantage, don't buy into the latest trends just for a quick buck (or Euro), take your time and put your production skills into something that has always and will always be yours, think longer term not just long term and then maybe you will start to (albeit in a fare few years time) have something to be proud of again and that something will not be something that just anyone can breed or be off the back of some other nation it will be all yours....... the  traditional ISH 

I should become a motivational speaker shouldn't I  

One parting bit of knowledge for all you ID and traditional ISH enthusiasts

A successful person is one who can lay a firm foundation with the bricks that others throw at him or her.


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## Eothain (11 June 2010)

Beautiful. Welcome back to the party Simsar!

I'm already asking where did all the good ISH stallions go!!! Never mind waiting for 50 years.
As for our thoroughbreds, well we have the best thoroughbred industry in the world and are no longer looked at as the poor country cousins, so something must have been done right. 'Twas Dr Vincent O'Brien that got the ball rolling on that one.
As for being proud of what we have, I'll be proud when we get back in to the Top Ten in the WBFSH rankings and our young stallions are once again elligible to go to the Zwolle Stallion Show.

 I'm so glad to have you back Simsar, I missed you


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## Simsar (11 June 2010)

You may well have the best TB industry in the world but as i said where are all the HIS types now, the ones that are so important to SPORTS HORSE breeding??? Time was when all the good SH TB's came from Ireland and the UK now horses like Watermill Swatch have to be sourced abroad, why did we not have the foresight to keep these types for our SH industries, if people looked further than the next foal then we might be in the postition that the European countries are now and then we might still be in the top ten WBFSH rankings surely????

It's nice to be back too


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## Eothain (11 June 2010)

I feel the life support having to come off this thread, it's sitting back up again now!

Just one very quick post before I head for a Dominos pizza, the John Magnier's and co in Ireland are involved with thoroughbred breeing. The German Coolmore equivalent is Paul Schockemole. The Belgian equivalent is Leon Melchior. We have no millionaire backbone in the Sport Horse business here. People can try to name the few wealthy Sport's breeders in Ireland but they couldn't tie some of the European's shoelaces. It's an unfortunate fact. So basically, the Thoroughbred breeders from the past who bred the big, rangy, tough horses you're talking about had to survive. So they did what they did and we are where we are. Like I said before, the blood we need must come from abroad. Likely to be France. Selle Francais or Thoroughbred, it doesn't bother me. It wasn't about short or long sightedness. No one could afford to do anything other than sell!!!

I didn't use Watermill Swatch on my Classic Vision mare after. I used the newly approved Thoroughbred stallion Sirillio. A german thoroughbred owned by the same family who own Tamarillo. In fact, Sirillio has covered all the female Tamarillo clones! Hopefully I'm on to a winner.

1 quick question, where oh where oh where is Hilly? I miss the thinly veiled barbs that were thrown at me!!!


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## Simsar (11 June 2010)

Nice stallion I looked at him on Bridgehouse's website before he was graded, glad I did as i wouldn't have looked at him twice from the pics on the HSI site. Now I might have asked this before but didn't Bridgehouse used to stand a grade A TB stallion, I am certain he stood there in 2008 at least, what happened to him???


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## Maesfen (11 June 2010)

Nice to have you back Simsar and you've breathed life back into the thread again, that wasn't a bad answer, well worth the wait! x


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## Bootsod (11 June 2010)

To be honest, I really can't see the value of the new warmblood studbook, especially when the IHB appears to be increasing its flexibility.


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## Simsar (11 June 2010)

Thanks Pat, Sarahs out to work so it has given me some quiet time to gather my thoughts


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## Maesfen (11 June 2010)

Lol, you need that quiet time, does she ever stop talking?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Simsar (11 June 2010)

Never ever


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## Simsar (12 June 2010)

Eothain said:



			I feel the life support having to come off this thread, it's sitting back up again now!

1 quick question, where oh where oh where is Hilly? I miss the thinly veiled barbs that were thrown at me!!!
		
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Come on Hilly, Eothain wants sharp things thrown at him!!!


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## Eothain (12 June 2010)

Bridge House Stud don't own their stallions. They just stand them at stud, though having said that they do own a large share of Dow Jones Courcel. The owners of said thoroughbred sire developed his own place a bit and now stands him there.

He hasn't got many jumpers. You'll see plenty of pretty boy show horses by him and plenty of eventers in the future but I doubt you'll see him with an international G.P winning son or daughter.

Sirillio is a beautiful horse. He has a lovely dainty head and big strong backside. The only thing I don't like about him is his big thick mane. Not really a problem though!

I'm a bit annoyed that I didn't use a horse they had down there called Vincenzo. He died of colic in the winter of 2008, three days before he was due to travel back to Belgium to compete in the World Cup circuit with a chap named Jos Lansink. Vincenzo was a full brother to McLain Ward's two time olympic gold medallist Sapphire. The Belgian's flew over here last year to register all his foals in the BWP studbook. They didn't want to lose that bloodline. So in a few years when the Vincenzo/Cruising stock are cleaning up around the world and the BWP shoot to #1 in the WBFSH rankings, at least we can say they should be Irish!!!

Have you seen the stallion Riverland Roi on the Bridge House website? I lurve that horse


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## Simsar (12 June 2010)

I only ask about him as a friend used him in 2008 on an ID mare and they are  REALLY happy with the colt they got from that cross, she is a real old nags-woman and she thinks alot of the colt even now as just a yearling, will be intersting to see how he turns out in the long run. 

Will just go and take a look at Riverland Roi now and then come back, you have to remember that we don't hear about alot of these stallions over here untill they are being well used over there, especially when you have that many horses that a yearly holiday to Ireland is out of the question as you'd just buy more!!!!! and I don't know many WB bloodlines although I am learning fast


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## Simsar (12 June 2010)

Riverland Roi seems a nice chap, got a grand jump on him and from what I can see from the pics is generally quite pleasing on the eye, but I don't like his back hoof-pastern axis, could just be a dodgy photo. Has he done anything more than what his results state???


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## Eothain (12 June 2010)

Well he's gone to Dermott Lennon now and will be with him for the forseeable future and he's just beginning to pop him around some 1.50m classes to get to know him.

I rode him at a show last year. His previous rider Paul O'Shea, asked me if I'd sit up and keep him loose before the class because he had another horse to warm up. Then he said since I was up there, I might as well warm him up!!! Yeah ... so he ended up winning the class. I think it was the way I warmed him up  He has such power! He's my favourite horse on the circuit at the minute.

Maybe if Dermott doesn't get on with him, and since Paul is heading to the US in August, I might be able to convince the powers that be to give him to me! 

***Edit***
Hoof pastern axis ... Huh???


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## Simsar (12 June 2010)

Eothain said:



			Maybe if Dermott doesn't get on with him, and since Paul is heading to the US in August, I might be able to convince the powers that be to give him to me! 

***Edit***
Hoof pastern axis ... Huh???
		
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Are you dreaming again Eothain?

Hoof pastern axis
http://comps.fotosearch.com/comp/LIF/LIF146/hoof-pastern-axis_~MVA21041.jpg
 maybe I'm being picky as it's a warmblood but he just looks a bit long and springy in the back pasterns

As said before though as long as it doesn't affect competition results, some conformation faults can be forgiven if put to the right mare.


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## GinnieRedwings (12 June 2010)

Simsar, your come-back post summarising 55-odd pages of this thread  was grand... all except for your conclusion though 

I'm still with Eothain on the value of the use of European Warbloods to revive the IHS!


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## TomReed (12 June 2010)

Eothain said:



			As for the Warmblood books, well I know for a fact that the WSI is not interested in ever registering more than about 200 - 250 foals per year. It's almost a private studbook and to be honest, I wish them the very best of good luck. I can see myself signing up as a member at some stage to support them but I'll always be an ISH man. For the WSI is all about having a higher percentage of jumpers to foals registered than any other studbook. Their focus is second to none.
		
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Conor/Eothain understands the focus and strategy of the Warmblood Studbook of Ireland (WSI) but in one respect his statement may be misinterpreted by some. The WSI is NOT a private studbook; it is an exclusive studbook, meaning that we only include horses that meet our strict criteria and we exclude everything else.

We wish there were more mares and stallions in Ireland that meet our strict criteria. Unfortunately that is not the case. But we are always interested in inspecting stallions and mares that meet our criteria for entry into the studbook. The criteria can be found on the WSI homepage (www.irish-warmblood.com) in downloadable files.


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## Maesfen (12 June 2010)

GinnieRedwings said:



			Simsar, your come-back post summarising 55-odd pages of this thread  was grand... all except for your conclusion though 
!
		
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*55 pages!*   I've only got 15 pages!    You mustn't have changed your settings of posts per page, you can have up to 40 posts instead of the default 15/20 per page, makes them much easier to read.  Go to Quick Links (on the right above) or left hand side, User CP , > edit options and you'll find it down the page somewhere.

If the 55 was very tongue in cheek, forget I said anything, lol!


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## Eothain (12 June 2010)

I'm on 58 pages myself!


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## Maesfen (12 June 2010)

You haven't got your tongue in your cheek then, lol!

Recipe for correction - and sanity - is above because I don't think for a moment that you're mad, or not that mad anyway!


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## Eothain (12 June 2010)

This entire thread has been a bit mad. I mean, it's only been going since March 23rd!!!


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## Maesfen (12 June 2010)

Yes, but it's been fun and only one bad/good word in the whole lot but I'll leave you to guess which one..................depending on which side of the fence you sit.


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## Eothain (12 June 2010)

Ah now, I don't think anybody considers Draught to be a dirty word!


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## Maesfen (12 June 2010)

ROFL!  Wrong number of letters, sorry.


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## rebel mountain (12 June 2010)

welcome back simsar its refreshing to hear from you again


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## GinnieRedwings (12 June 2010)

No tongue in cheek - page 59...


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## Simsar (12 June 2010)

Can I just say I don't talk a lot! Sarah.


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## GinnieRedwings (12 June 2010)

Simsar said:



			Can I just say I don't talk a lot! Sarah.
		
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Don't worry Sarah, we don't believe a word he says


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## Irishlife (12 June 2010)

Pat, would it be 9 letters begining with "W"?


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## Eothain (12 June 2010)

Surely not!


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## Simsar (13 June 2010)

It actually begins with D!


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## Eothain (13 June 2010)

The suspense is getting to me. I can't take it any more. What is it?


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## Irishlife (13 June 2010)

Of course it does!!! I must be a dumb blonde as opposed to a D--------. Not much difference at this end of the day.

However, off to Valencia later today for a horse free week. Never ends up that way ----- cue girl child whining for Baroque Andalusian that dishes like a bitch!! 

It has only taken a month of logistics to get away and of course the 4 year crocked his fetlock with a juicy cut this week so we are still injecting and buteing to the last minute. Sets his jumping season back a month. Three year old has been attacked by a wandering Jack donkey who also impregnated a local pony (the resulting foal is cute as a button with ears even Hilly would not want to compete with - is it a jennet or mule?, haven't a clue). 

Two mares scanned last night on 17 days, both had silent short cycles and had ovulated couple of days ago b****r and b******s. How mad is it we scanned six mares only one in foal.  The two of mine that were scanned usually have their backsides in any male horse face squirting squealing and tarting and showed nothing despite being teased from day 15. Frustrating.

So see you guys later - keep the thread alive!!!!!!


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## Maesfen (13 June 2010)

Irishlife said:



			Pat, would it be 9 letters begining with "W"?
		
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You're very close..................

Hope you have a great holiday, sounds as if you need it!


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## gadetra (13 June 2010)

Welcome back Simsar I've missed you!
On the lack of big strong NH type SH suitable TB's-we are the world leaders in racing. Something like 7 out of the top 10 TB stallions in the world stand in Ireland. Not too bad! Yes I agree the good rangy NH Tb stallion has all but disappeared but needs must-i'm not defending hte decline but people have to make money and will produce what's demanded. Ireland is the 3rdlargest producer of TB's after America and Australia-no mean feat for a little island. 
Much as I'd love a nice strong NH Tb stallion to inject some scope into the ISH I'm afraid I just don't think it's going to happen  so i'm afraid I'd be with Eothain in the need for injecting some dumbblood i mean warmblood in. I'd go for French blood only as they suit the Irish horse well-see Touchdown.
And i will never be convinced of the need for various warmblood studbooks sorry Tom Reed but best of luck to them anyway.
Anyway think i'm just repeating myself all over again-loving that this thread has come back to life!!


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## AdAblurr (14 June 2010)

Speaking of TB sires with tons of bone and substance, does anyone know what became of Hawk Wing? I always thought he was a wonderful type, but a bit expensive for sporthorse breeders to bring mares to while he was standing at Coolmore.

Our big broodmare Always Pleasing is closely related - perhaps "very similarly bred" is more accurate - and she certainly produces the goods. Big, strapping, classy and talented, and her best have been when bred to RID sires.


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## Eothain (14 June 2010)

Not in a million years would Coolmore let any stallion cover a Sport Horse. It just doesn't happen


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## gadetra (14 June 2010)

Yeah I second Eothain. Even if you had the money they wouldn't let their millionS of euro stallions sully themselves covering sporthorse mares. Pity. Imagine if Presenting was available...oh the possibilities!!
Actually the more I think about it-obviously not Coolmore but smaller studs maybe-it kind of makes sense economically to let the sports horse industry use racing stallions-not for natural cover obviously but releasing a few straws can't hurt anyone surely? Stalion man gets a few extra euro in the pocket, SH breeders get a better class of TB?


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## Simsar (14 June 2010)

gadetra said:



			Actually the more I think about it-obviously not Coolmore but smaller studs maybe-it kind of makes sense economically to let the sports horse industry use racing stallions-not for natural cover obviously but releasing a few straws can't hurt anyone surely? Stallion man gets a few extra euro in the pocket, SH breeders get a better class of TB?
		
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Why not Coolmore, Darley etc???? This would certainly up the anti in SH breeding and would show the GOOD TB's true versatility surely? I can't see that it could do any harm, you could still have nominations for them and then they could pick out the creme-de-la creme and still ask good money for the service, I do understand that some of these stallions cover several hundred mares and so it might not be possible to cover allot of SH mares but they could limit them.

Might send them an email and see if they will do concessions for Fat old cobs


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## gadetra (14 June 2010)

Simsar said:



			Might send them an email and see if they will do concessions for Fat old cobs

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LOL!! It makes good sense to me but it'll never happen. I can guarantee that. They're too big, there's a too much of a gulf between the TB an SH breeding, too much money involved, reputations, Blah Blah blah. But it would be class. I mean those stallions have books of 300+ and a few straws collected amongst them isn't going to hurt anyone. I wish it would happen. But it won't. Not with the big boys anyway


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## ruby1 (14 June 2010)

Reading this part of the post rings a bell with me that i'm sure i did read somewhere that Kayif Tara ( i'm positive thats who it was ) had covered sport horse mare/mare's but they still had to pay the £4,500 stud fee at that particular time. Even if the top stallions were available it  perhaps wouldn't be finacially viable for most. Such a pity .


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## rebel mountain (14 June 2010)

if we can't get the horses themselves what about their sons
if a WEALTHY stallion owner went out and bought colts by the likes of presenting etc.if and horse can sire a cheltenham gold cup winner then couldn't his son sire a horse to jump grand prix


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## Eothain (14 June 2010)

Google "Jan Greve" and read the Horse World Magazine interview with him. Don't have time to post link now.

I'm inclined to agree with what he says. Just on my way out the door, don't have time to go into detail.

It'll open a lot of peoples eyes I'm sure. This dude knows what he's talking about!!!


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## Simsar (14 June 2010)

rebel mountain said:



			if we can't get the horses themselves what about their sons
if a WEALTHY stallion owner went out and bought colts by the likes of presenting etc.if and horse can sire a cheltenham gold cup winner then couldn't his son sire a horse to jump grand prix
		
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Tried that! What was the EFU in Newmarket had a extremely well bred colt by Green Desert (Darley), when they packed up they sold him on. I bought a couple of *CRACKING* fillies from the EFU by him, I recently rang up the new owners to find out about using him on 3 of our mares (TB,ISH & AID) and was told they would only cover the TB!! Find it stupid as I would have paid good money and wasn't asking for natural cover so no chance of injury from the mares. Went for Primo Pageant in the end and am glad I haven't lined the other stallion owners pockets!


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## GrassHorse (14 June 2010)

Sorry about the whole "Cruising story" thing.
 It turns out, I can't tell it.  The person who had the task of bringing Mullacrew to stud won't give me permission. He said that some people know Cruising is by the pony and no matter what you tell them, they will still believe he's by the pony. 
Sorry for going AWOL for so long, I know the story has moved on, I just thought I should say why I can't tell.


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## druid (14 June 2010)

On the Coolmore, Darley etc. thread.

You're right, they wouldn't use thier stallions on a non-TB. Two main reasons - 1) The vast majority of the stallions do two seasons shuttling between the hemi-spheres already with the added stress of AI collections. When you reckon on a minimum book of 100 or perhaps 150 (and some are *much* bigger) mares in both seasons  and say 1.5 coverings per mare.....that's *alot* of coverings to be asking of a stallion.... 2) Economically viable it ain't. The facilities needed for AI - dummy, AVs etc. aren't available....and at TB stud fees why would you bother for the few SH mares at 10% of the price or less??

Ruby1 - Kayf Tara was available to selected sport horse mares early in his career for 2.5k. Not cheap

AdAblurr - Hawk Wing is/was standing at the KRA's JeJu in Korea


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## Eothain (16 June 2010)

Reb, the Presentings and Old Vics of this world would be better off breeding Sport Horse fillies for us. It's a big difference between breeding a horse who can brush through steeplechase fences and a horse who can explode off the floor to not leave a hoof on a pole.

There's no thoroughbred stallion in the WBFSH top 30 sire rankings but if you look at the dam side of some of the top International horses you'll see where the thoroughbred comes into Sport Horse breeding. Shutterfly is just one example of a super star out of a mare by a thoroughbred.

Here's a link to a photo of one of my competition horses. His dam is by a thoroughbred and the grandam is a Draught mare but his sire is KWPN.

http://www.jumpinaction.net/gallery...mping/7/lg/LD4_0168Ballivor1mSun13Jun2010.htm

I think the foreign stallion crossed with a mare by a thoroughbred is a good cross and yes, it would surely work to replace the KWPN blood with ISH blood if you can find a horse of the right quality. Fact is the foreign blood is almost a necessity somewhere along the line. I repeat, almost!!! But thoroughbred stallions are unlikely to produce the horses we're looking for. Their daughters are what we're looking for.

If Presenting is ever made available to ISH breeders, then we can only cross our fingers that every foal will be a filly!

Here's a link to the Jan Greve interview I spoke of earlier:

http://www.horsemagazine.com/ARTICLES/G/Greve/TwJG.html


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## rebel mountain (16 June 2010)

i hear what your saying eothain about the fillies

but as a die presenting fan i taped cheltenham this year .i know it was a while ago but can anyone remember weapon's amnesty's last fence in the RSA chase or the 2006-2008 gold cups 

If his sons progeny could be half the athletes his were i don't think they will do to bad because when all is said and done where is the TB horse how is getting jumpers


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## GrassHorse (16 June 2010)

There is a new video of Harlequin Du Carel on the ballymureen Stud website. This horse, in my opinion, is a perfect Selle Francais specimen. 

There is also a video Beowulf by the great Cruising. Just for you Eothain!

I agree with where this conversation is going. There are Thoroughbred stallions in Ireland that could be invaluable to sport horse breeding. The question is how can you get access to them? Where would breeders like you or I get a Euro for the stud fee?


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## druid (16 June 2010)

Isn't there some IHB/HSI scheme whic will pay x amount of a stud fee to an approved "eilte" TB?


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## Simsar (16 June 2010)

What about this boy, I'm on the look out now.................







Think I might be dreaming though unless one of you kind H&HO's want to help with the stud fee????


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## no_no_nanette (16 June 2010)

How about Sirillio?  He has just moved to Bridge House Stud, co. Westmeath, from the Guinness' Biddesden Stud in the UK, as there was not enough interest in him over here ... but he's available AI, at a reasonable stud fee, and looks a very nice boy from his photos.  Even better, he's by Dashing Blade  out of a Formidable mare.  If anyone goes to view him, I would be very interested in your thoughts!


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## Eothain (17 June 2010)

I covered my Classic Vision/Duca Di Busted mare with him. He's a smashing horse. Big powerful back side and a dainty little head. Good model of a horse and has a lovely attitude to everything.

If it's a filly, it'll be a keeper!!! See above for reasons why!!!


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## GrassHorse (17 June 2010)

Simsar, Who is this horse in the picture? I like his hind quarters!


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## Eothain (17 June 2010)

Azamour I believe. He's the stable mate of one Sea The Stars


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## Simsar (17 June 2010)

Eothain said:



			Azamour I believe. He's the stable mate of one Sea The Stars
		
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He shoots he scores


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## Eothain (17 June 2010)

When you're good, you're good


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## GrassHorse (17 June 2010)

Azamour, Ah yes! That was a good day at Leopardstown.  8/1 winner of  champion stakes.


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## JanetGeorge (17 June 2010)

Eothain said:



			Here's a link to a photo of one of my competition horses. His dam is by a thoroughbred and the grandam is a Draught mare but his sire is KWPN.

I think the foreign stallion crossed with a mare by a thoroughbred is a good cross and yes, it would surely work to replace the KWPN blood with ISH blood if you can find a horse of the right quality.
		
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He looks a cracking sort - but is his KWPN sire REALLY a KWPN?  Seems every second KWPN stallion I see the tree of is actually something else - but graded into the KWPN stud book.

I have a fab ISH gelding here - if he doesn't get to Badminton it won't be HIS fault.  He's a a horse graded KWPN (Lombardo) - but look at Lombardo's pedigree - virtually pure Selle Francais!  http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/lombardo7

But my chap's dam is 'real' ISH - by Errigal Flight - with a fair smattering of TB and no 'foreign' blood.  He moves like a dressage horse, jumps as a grandson of Quidam deRevel should, gallops like a slightly lazy racehorse and does laidback for England!  That little bit of ID makes all the difference.

This is him at his first outing.






As for TB stallions:  well if I could bring myself to use a TB on one of my RID mares, this is the stallion I'd use!







I had a fantastic TB mare by him to my RID stallion last year - and the foal is to die for!!  And a friend sent her RID filly (by my stallion) to him last year - and THAT filly is something very special!  He's a race winning son of Sadler's Wells - but his stud fee is less than a lot of Warmbloods!  You don't NEED fashionable TB sires with stud fees into 5 figures to breed great sport horses - just the basics - conformation, movement, temperament!!


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## GrassHorse (17 June 2010)

Do you know this horse Eothain?


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## Simsar (17 June 2010)

Grasshorse I do believe that stallion is High Tension who belongs to Groomsbridge on here, a very nice boy! I do believe that he is out for this season at the minute though.


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## JanetGeorge (17 June 2010)

Simsar said:



			Grasshorse I do believe that stallion is High Tension who belongs to Groomsbridge on here, a very nice boy! I do believe that he is out for this season at the minute though.
		
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Yep - it's High Tension.  I LOVE that stallion (and before TFC comes down on me like a ton of bricks,I am in NO way connected with the stallion or the stud.  I just think he's one of the best put together TB stallions I've seen in a long time!!  And yes, Simsar is right - he's had an accident so having this year off - hell of a shame!


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## Eothain (17 June 2010)

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ramon4

There's some SF, KWPN, Holst (Landgraf ), Westphalian, Anglo Arab and TB in his pedigree.

Yeah, I knew that was High Tension. I used the same technique to see who Azamour was. Right click the photo, click properties and hope the stallion is named in the url.

Yes ... I cheated.

Nice horse Janet. Has to be said ... Errigal Flight,  what a legend.

I hope to buy a colt foal by him this year. He has no stallion sons so we need to do something about that.

I know of a Clover Brigade x Ballinvella mare in foal to him. Hopefully she'll spring a colt. I'd kill for a traditionally bred colt like that. It may be traditional breeding but it's all performance breeding.

In my mind, performance comes before all else so if a stallion jumps in a Super League Nations Cup or the Olympics and it has 7 legs, 2 heads, 6 eyes and the foetus of it's stillborn twin stuck on it's back end I'd happily use him.

Performance, performance, performance!!!


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## GrassHorse (17 June 2010)

Here is a real good one! From the same family as Sea The Stars!
http://www.holsteiner-verband.de/cms/front_content.php?client=1&lang=2&idcat=32&idart=449&pageno=


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## JanetGeorge (17 June 2010)

Eothain said:



			Nice horse Janet. Has to be said ... Errigal Flight,  what a legend.

I hope to buy a colt foal by him this year. He has no stallion sons so we need to do something about that.
		
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It's surprising that he has produced no stallions although I suppose many people might consider his qualities would be watered down if he was put to a TB/RID mare - or if to an ISH mare, the colt might inherit the less successful grandparent's traits!  I certainly wouldn't say no to a nice mare by him!





			In my mind, performance comes before all else so if a stallion jumps in a Super League Nations Cup or the Olympics and it has 7 legs, 2 heads, 6 eyes and the foetus of it's stillborn twin stuck on it's back end I'd happily use him.
		
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 Interesting way of putting it!!  I certainly wouldn't go that far!  The problem with a stallion who is a 'freak' performer (with or without 2 heads, 7 legs etc.) is that they tend NOT to reproduce the performance (although they may well produce the 2 heads, 7 legs etc.)

I want conformation (for soundness), temperament (for trainability), movement, AND a performance pedigree.  Which is why I like my chestnut chap so much - he has the best of French performance blood on the sire's side, and the best of Irish on the dam's.  And he's got conformation and temperament as well!

There are any number of stallions that didn't - for one reason or another - perform themselves, but which produced performers.  Flagmount Diamond springs to mind amongst the RIDs - I think he's actually produced MORE jumpers than full brother Flagmount King who did go Grade A.


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## brianreid (18 June 2010)

hi all,

I believe that when covering mare to any stallions we have to look at the product in a years time and the product that the foal will produce if it goes to the breeding side of thigs.
I know that while the tb/ish crosses are proven eventers, they can sometimes be that little bit hot. I have a horses that i polital merger X Kings servent dam and she is a nasty piece of work, If you gave me all the money in the world i would not sell her, she has thought me so much she has developed my seat hugely by me trying to stay on her when she rears and trying to get her into a contact which took 2 years of hard work. But this cross is not  good. How will a mare like this benifit the breeding. trying to harness the energy to do work and what will a mare like this produce.

In respect to crossing to wb's i really dont like this mix. I believe that in olden days anything and everything was crosses and look at the horses that we had. They went hunting worked the land and they could jump. We recently had a cobra X chairmaker born And when i compare this cross to the Near dock X chairmaker filly that i had last year I prefer the Near dock X chairmaker. So much easyer to work with. What have warmbloods done for us. They have been in Ireland since the 70's and we have yet to see the results.  

Eothion i have one question for you! Were are you going to get these young irish sport horse stallions that you hope to cover your mares to in a couple of years time, When the irish will have lost their identy and will have mainly warmbloods here...

Have we as a nation become to advananced in breeding and look to much ahead. We no longer breed for hardeness soundness, We mainly breed for movement and looks....


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## JanetGeorge (18 June 2010)

brianreid said:



			hi all,

I believe that when covering mare to any stallions we have to look at the product in a years time and the product that the foal will produce if it goes to the breeding side of thigs.
.....

Have we as a nation become to advananced in breeding and look to much ahead. We no longer breed for hardeness soundness, We mainly breed for movement and looks....
		
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I don't think that's just an Irish trait!  I think the looks/movement obsession - often almost ignoring temperament/trainability and soundness - is rife everywhere!  It's seen in MANY Warmbloods - far too many are a 'professional ride'!  Which is ok if they're talented enough to be of interest to a professional!  But the also-rans are a glut on the market!  They're bought by amateurs who are blinded by the flashy paces - and who then find out they can't ride one side of them!  It's particularly common in the lower levels of dressage here - riders who have no real ambition to get beyond Elementary think they need something that moves like Totilas to do well!  When most of them would do FAR better with a good old IDxTB that moves well enough and will stay in the arena!


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## Eothain (18 June 2010)

*Cracks knuckles* This will be fun ...

Too advanced in breeding? *Rubs eyes* Too advanced in breeding? Brian ... we are far from advanced in breeding. Plus, there's no such thing as being too advanced in breeding. You can never be too advanced!!! If the ISH was as advanced as you seem to believe, then I can assure you we wouldn't be where we are today as a showjumping breed! We still breed the worlds best eventers, only just however. The French and Hannovarians are breeding down our necks.

Breeding for soundness? Now, I'm going to go out on a limb here and dare to suggest that no one wants to breed a lame horse or a horse prone to lameness. Twould be folly. Having said that, soundness alone a horse does not make.
There's no point in having an 8 year old horse who has never been lame a day in it's life but can't jump out of your way. The two go hand in hand. The Puissance sired mare I ride, went through the floor of the horsebox last summer and despite having a piece of timber stuck into her fetlock at the time, she was never lame once on it. Funny that her mother is by Furisto, a "dirty" warmblood.

Folks, the idea of this thread was to highlight the high class stallions whom are fully approved and now available to Irish breeders to use. The idea being we'll get back to the top of the jumping rankings in a few years. Wake up and smell the coffee folks, we're simply not breeding enough top class horses. No one is saying we should stop breeding good saleable all rounders. That too is a ridiculous notion. Almost as ridiculous as the sport of showjumping reverting back to the format it had in the 70s and 80s with big heavy poles, deep cups and very little technicality in the courses so that our superstars could gallop around and fire themselves in the air over the fences.
For the love of whatever it is you believe in, come out of the fog!

We don't need to work the land with horses anymore, there's these amazing things called tractors that do that now. We don't need to hook the horse up a cart to go to town and then hack him down the road to the local hunt meet. Those days are dead and buried. Get over them.
We need quick developing, explosive power off the floor with bucketloads of carefulness to ensure the modern horses can cut it in the modern sport.

As for the young ISHs we'll be using in the future, well as I've said before, horses like Samjemgee, Oldtown KC, Cara Touche, Cruisings Mickey Finn are some of the horses I hope to use in the future but by the time I have developed the mares for them, they'll be in their early 20s.
Yes, the mares I send to them will have horses like Mermus R, Vdl Arkansas, Cavalier, Vechta, Lancelot, Luidam, Riverland Roi, Ars Vivendi, Heritage Fortunus and Condios amongst others in their pedigrees but once the resulting progeny get the ISH back into the *showjumping* top 5, then I really don't care. People can criticise their polluted pedigrees all they want, but they will merely be "haters". The Irish opposition to Warmblood stallions is completely out dated.

Go and look at the breeding of the top 10 showjumping horses from last year and tell me then honestly that warmbloods are of no use to us. Is the traditional Irish cross going to magically improve in leaps and bounds? I think not.
Is it a pity? Yes!
Should we moan about it as the Irish constantly do? Hell no! We should adapt and stay relevant.
Will the Irish showjumping horse of the future be tinted with so much foreign blood that it becomes "just another warmblood"? More than likely.
Does it bother me? Hell no
Should people stop breeding nice quality id crosses for the common market? Not on your life.
Do I want to be involved in such a breeding program? Absolutely not.

The KWPN stallion, Hickstead, who holds the distinction of being one of the worlds best horses along with current Olympic team silver and individual gold medallist, had a career threatening colic surgery in early 2008. Yet he showed enough toughness, soundness and courage to return better than ever and whoop tail at the Olympics.

Toughness, soundness and courage are not an Irish exclusive trait. We talk about them so much because without them, we have nothing!!!

Speaking of the 2008 Olympics, did you know 19 ISHs contested the games? 18 of them were 3 Day Eventers, 1 was a showjumper and she was by a certain Holstein stallion called Cavalier Royale.

The modern Warmblood may be able to trace their roots back to a handful of good thoroughbred stallions from Ireland and Britain but that was 40 years ago. It's time for all of us to let that go! We are where we are and it's not the fault of anybody but ourselves. 

The question was asked, what have warmbloods done for us? They've stopped us from being a complete laughing stock!


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## doonrocket (18 June 2010)

Firstly,
Eothain, you must never sleep.

Just wrote a long post about how Irish breeders need to improve their profile and marketing to stop UK horse importers cashing in on the ISH name without any regard to breeding or production, but the damn computer booted me out before I could post.

Now I remeber why I never write anything on this machine!


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## JanetGeorge (18 June 2010)

doonrocket said:



			Firstly,
Eothain, you must never sleep.

Just wrote a long post about how Irish breeders need to improve their profile and marketing to stop UK horse importers cashing in on the ISH name without any regard to breeding or production, but the damn computer booted me out before I could post.
		
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I normally DO sleep but ruddy foaling alarm woke me - got to the stable just BEFORE she was irrevocably committed so she crossed her legs!

I don'tunderstand what you're saying doonrocket.  Who are all these UK horse importers "cashing in on the ISH name without any regard to breeding or production"?  Judging by recent sales reports I've seen from Cavan, Gorebridge etc. I would THINK that Irish breeders would welcome a lot MORE UK horse importers with no regard for anything - as long as they bought horses and paid at least production cost for them.  But UK buyers are being very tight with their cash at present - there are a hell of a lot of cheap horses around- many of them very decent sorts - but fetching barely half the price they'd have made 2-3 years ago.

But with the UK market so depressed, it seems than many of the middle/low end dealers here are now looking to mainland Europe for imports, with horses coming in from the French fattening farms, Romania, and goodness knows where else!


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## JanetGeorge (18 June 2010)

Eothain said:



			Breeding for soundness? Now, I'm going to go out on a limb here and dare to suggest that no one wants to breed a lame horse or a horse prone to lameness. Twould be folly. Having said that, soundness alone a horse does not make.
There's no point in having an 8 year old horse who has never been lame a day in it's life but can't jump out of your way. The two go hand in hand.
		
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It would be nice if soundness and brilliance DID go hand in hand, but it ain't necessarily so!  I've seen it mainly in racehorses - but it happens in all disciplines - the potentially 'brilliant' individual who doesn't QUITE fulfil his potential because he spends too much time on box rest!  So he's retired to stud due to an 'accident' - to produce more potentially brilliant horses who may or may not be as brilliant - and may or may not stay sounder depending on what's on the other side of the mix!




			No one is saying we should stop breeding good saleable all rounders. That too is a ridiculous notion. ...

We don't need to work the land with horses anymore, there's these amazing things called tractors that do that now. We don't need to hook the horse up a cart to go to town and then hack him down the road to the local hunt meet. .....
We need quick developing, explosive power off the floor with bucketloads of carefulness to ensure the modern horses can cut it in the modern sport.
.......
Should people stop breeding nice quality id crosses for the common market? Not on your life.
		
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But good saleable allrounders are NOT horses with 'quick developing explosiveness off the floor'.

I actually quite like the Irish move to far more use of Warmbloods because the people who used to go to Ireland for their good, sensible middle-heavyweight hunters are now more often looking in the UK because they struggle to FIND that sort of horse in Ireland anymore.  Or that's what my buyers are telling me.  

And it's not JUST because of the increased use of Warmblood sires (which IS the way to go to produce the top competition horses - I wouldn't argue with that for a moment!)  It's because of the loss of bone in the Irish Draught in Ireland - a loss that's set to continue looking at the horses graded RID a few weeks ago.

RIDs with 8.5" of bone are NOT - put to a TB - going to produce those nice ISH-types that the UK hunting fields used to be full of.  And possibly not even the mares which - put to a top Warmblood - will produce a top International horse.  Wouldn't ANY Irish breeder like a couple of full sisters to Errigal Flight, for example - to put to one of the top Warmblood stallions??  I sure would!


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## GinnieRedwings (18 June 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			I don't think that's just an Irish trait!  I think the looks/movement obsession - often almost ignoring temperament/trainability and soundness - is rife everywhere!  It's seen in MANY Warmbloods - far too many are a 'professional ride'!  Which is ok if they're talented enough to be of interest to a professional!  But the also-rans are a glut on the market!  They're bought by amateurs who are blinded by the flashy paces - and who then find out they can't ride one side of them!  It's particularly common in the lower levels of dressage here - riders who have no real ambition to get beyond Elementary think they need something that moves like Totilas to do well!  When most of them would do FAR better with a good old IDxTB that moves well enough and will stay in the arena!
		
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JanetGeorge - one of my favourite soap box topics - thank you for that x


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## Eothain (18 June 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			But good saleable allrounders are NOT horses with 'quick developing explosiveness off the floor'!
		
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I know that. I'm saying there's room for both kinds of horses to be bred but people have to come to terms with the fact that our traditional cross, as lovely as they are can't cut it in the big International arenas anymore. You'll get the occasional one but they're few and far between.

Breeders must set out to breed a horse specifically for a market. No more of this putting a mare in foal to an average stallion and hoping for the next Milton.

Bread and butter horses must always continue to be bred but superstar showjumpers are not bread and butter horses. We can't have it both ways


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## JANANI (18 June 2010)

RE:

''Here is a real good one! From the same family as Sea The Stars!
http://www.holsteiner-verband.de/cms...rt=449&pageno= ''

(Sorry Eothin for going of topic)

The sire of that horse 'Winged Love'. I have always admired so it is interesting that the Holsteiner have used him. This is a picture of him when he stood at Scarvagh House Stud.

http://www.scarvagh.com/horses/stallions/winged_love/

He stands at Tullyraine Stud in Co Down and I would have considered him if I hadn't used a dumblood two years ago. We had used Perpendicular who also stood at Tullyraine previous to this. And I am not breeding any more otherwise I will end up divorced. 

I would of thought that most studs with the state of the TB market (Plenty of my clients which breed TBs are leaving their mares empty this year) the smaller studs would consider giving a special non TB rate.

If we can't use the likes of presenting himself surely we could use some of his daughters as with current economic enviroment they would be more affordable than they would have been in the past.

Just my thoughts

JANA


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## Simsar (18 June 2010)

I have taken this off the TB post as I felt it had a cross over to this discussion and wanted to reply to it here.

*My views on the role of TBs in sport horse breeding can be found here, in an article published almost two years ago:

http://morningside-stud.com/gpage19.html

Tom Reed *

Interesting reading Tom.

I have to say that from this and other posts with a large Irish contingent, I find it really sad and disheartening that a lot of you seem so willing to give up on the very horses that made the Irish sport horse industry to start of with, i keep saying this but why not improve your horses off your own backs, with careful breeding and good production and don't give me any of this the ISH isn't up to it, neither were any of the WB's when they started their modern breeding programs, but they were selective and spent the time and money on producing the best from what they had! Most nations started with a heavier type of horse and bred in the athleticism from the TB.  Now you have the modern Holsteiner, Hanoverian, KWPN etc etc, which you are now crossing with your ISH. How is it that they have managed to do what you want to with such success, yet Ireland have been left behind when essentially you had the same breeding goals? 

Hope this makes sense


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## AdAblurr (18 June 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			Yep - it's High Tension.  I LOVE that stallion (and before TFC comes down on me like a ton of bricks,I am in NO way connected with the stallion or the stud.  I just think he's one of the best put together TB stallions I've seen in a long time!!  And yes, Simsar is right - he's had an accident so having this year off - hell of a shame!
		
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Janet, when I first saw your posted pic, my first thought was WOW, he looks just like *Paranoide, the sire of our senior mare, who is a fabulous producer - and her latest filly (by our RID boy, who is your boy's kid brother) is her best yet. This TB type is a lovely cross to the traditional ID horse.

I think you are right, though - correct conformation that is consistent through the parentage, soundness, movement - and we look also for temperament, as our market here is nearly 100% ammie owner/riders. Can't sell a horse that is not amateur friendly. Hard to find all of that in TB now, no matter where you look.


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## rebel mountain (19 June 2010)

maybe this is just me but i think with the talented stallion people we have in this country i do believe there is a TB horse out there how is going to make it in the next 10 years 
watch this space


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## Eothain (20 June 2010)

Possibly, but what is "making it"? TB stallions will have to be tested in open competition themselves which along with a very many other things is something I want to do.

I'm gonna attempt to find a nice NH-bred young colt and produce him as a showjumper up to GP level. It didn't really work for Loughahoe Guy however, there's nothing to say it'd work for a stallion of mine


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## ewf (20 June 2010)

Question: How many IDs are SJI-ing at >1.30??

Also when people are asking about TB Stallions, are imported approved stallions like Zero Watt and Jacksons Drift not breeding quality or are they not getting quality mares?


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## JanetGeorge (20 June 2010)

ewf said:



			Question: How many IDs are SJI-ing at >1.30??
		
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Not TOO many, I'd think.  I'm watching Diamond Design and Drumri from a distance: they seem to have a very nice jump as tro be expected from their breeding.  And I have a mare who is a full sister to Drumri who was never really tried properly jumping, but has a hell of a pop!

The problem is not the power to jump the height - but most are just a bit heavy to be constantly LANDING from that height.  I wouldn't want to risk a big RID stallion jumping TOO high TOO often!   Having had a top TB SJ in my day (which was long ago!) my ideal sj prospect if I was still young enough would be a GOOD NZ NH mare to a GOOD RID jumping stallion (assumingthat the NZ NH types are as good now as they were 30 years ago!)


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## rebel mountain (20 June 2010)

Eothain said:



			Possibly, but what is "making it"? TB stallions will have to be tested in open competition themselves which along with a very many other things is something I want to do.

I'm gonna attempt to find a nice NH-bred young colt and produce him as a showjumper up to GP level. It didn't really work for Loughahoe Guy however, there's nothing to say it'd work for a stallion of mine
		
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eothain this is just my opinion but i think you could be setting yourself up for a fall

i have seen this being done with power blade and market square both were good but i don't think they could be handled after all were talking about animals who are bred to run flat out from A to B

my definition of making it is master imp a horse who got show horses and show jumpers


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## ewf (20 June 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			Not TOO many, I'd think.  I'm watching Diamond Design and Drumri from a distance: they seem to have a very nice jump as tro be expected from their breeding.  And I have a mare who is a full sister to Drumri who was never really tried properly jumping, but has a hell of a pop!

The problem is not the power to jump the height - but most are just a bit heavy to be constantly LANDING from that height.  I wouldn't want to risk a big RID stallion jumping TOO high TOO often!   Having had a top TB SJ in my day (which was long ago!) my ideal sj prospect if I was still young enough would be a GOOD NZ NH mare to a GOOD RID jumping stallion (assumingthat the NZ NH types are as good now as they were 30 years ago!)
		
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mmmm, I was expecting more from their competition records 

My OH s'jumps a 6yo S1(never performance tested) ID stallion. We've spent this year reschooling him as he was badly started. I've been reading this thread thinking of this, wondering how many potential superstars were runined this way...

Anyway, he should be jumping 1.10/1.20 this year and hopefully doing the spring 1.35 league next year.

To me his breeding shows that no matter the breed or type if you breed right you get excellence. He's by GP jumping RID out of a mare who had a hell of a jump by a sire of showjumpers. His 3/4 brother(same dam and sires sire) was bred using the same formula and came back from the states with 130 sj points, alot from 1.30s.

His next cover is a lovely leggy athletic 16'3 TB and I can't wait to see the result


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## rebel mountain (20 June 2010)

ewf said:



			mmmm, I was expecting more from their competition records 

My OH s'jumps a 6yo S1(never performance tested) ID stallion. We've spent this year reschooling him as he was badly started. I've been reading this thread thinking of this, wondering how many potential superstars were runined this way...

Anyway, he should be jumping 1.10/1.20 this year and hopefully doing the spring 1.35 league next year.

To me his breeding shows that no matter the breed or type if you breed right you get excellence. He's by GP jumping RID out of a mare who had a hell of a jump by a sire of showjumpers. His 3/4 brother(same dam and sires sire) was bred using the same formula and came back from the states with 130 sj points, alot from 1.30s.

His next cover is a lovely leggy athletic 16'3 TB and I can't wait to see the result 

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whats the name of your stallion what is his breeding?


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## GrassHorse (21 June 2010)

I have just got back from the three year old loose jumping at Warrington. There was some really classy horses there. Two boys and two girls go  through from each venue. The boys were by Olympic Lux and Guidam. The girls were by OBOS Quality and Lux Z( My Filly ) Im delighted!
There was a really nice Clinton stallion there too


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## hati (22 June 2010)

so after 3 attempts and very kind vets who will AI a mare at 10pm, my mare is now in foal to Puissance......(she was scanned yesterday with twins so one was squeezed)

So glad i went down the Irish breeding route this year and fingers crossed I get a nice filly! will know in 11 months time!


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## rebel mountain (22 June 2010)

what is the mare you put in foal to puissance by?


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## hati (22 June 2010)

she is called Ringwood Hati - she is by Senang Hati out of a Carnival night mare and was bred by the late Michael Leonard.


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## Eothain (22 June 2010)

Fantastic decision. Puissance is an utterly amazing stallion. We Senang Hati and Carnival Night breeding, that could be a future Badminton contender!

Yes Reb, chances are it could blow up in my face but shir look, what else would I be doing?


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## hati (23 June 2010)

Eothain said:



			Fantastic decision. Puissance is an utterly amazing stallion. We Senang Hati and Carnival Night breeding, that could be a future Badminton contender!
		
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thanks! so only 11 months to wait now and then possibly another 6 years to see if it any good....


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## gadetra (23 June 2010)

Think loughohoe Guy only left competition cos he was injured-he was  with the army wasn't he? then private stud. look at French Buffet though-there's a Tb who raced etc. and jumped up to 1.40-1.60. I t is possible. But it is all in the temprement. As RM said they're designed to go from A to B as fast as possible.
Love Senang Hati-think he was very underrated as an eventing sire. and carnaval Night-what a nicely bred mare!


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## GrassHorse (23 June 2010)

I think finding a thoroughbred that can jump is easier said than done. I commend people who try it. Hand in Glove was a great example of a thoroughbred who could do dressage and show jumping. He compted in international classes in both disciplines. He came from america, I think he raced there too. Ive rode one of those big scopy american thoroughbreds, they are very different to what we have here. 

Eothain, there are some of Ladykillers family alive in Ireland, it could be a starting point?


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## hati (24 June 2010)

gadetra said:



			Love Senang Hati-think he was very underrated as an eventing sire. and carnaval Night-what a nicely bred mare!
		
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thank you! I am very lucky that she has such good/nice bloodlines


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## magic104 (24 June 2010)

65 pgs!!  I have missed a lot out, but would endorse now as in the past those that mention production of these fine horses.  You can breed top horses all you like, but if they end up in the wrong hands they wont go anywhere.  Coolcorron Cool Diamond was also mentioned & I agree his stud fee was far too expensive.  What a crying shame that one of his stallion sons ended up with a bunch of numpties to produce, he went from pillar to post & is now back in Ireland.  He was without doubt poorly managed/marketed, the fact he only had 1 foal recorded for 2008 is a sad state of affairs.  

There seems to be a huge choice of stallions, so why are the Irish allowing stallions with poor conformation grade, as seen earlier on another thread?


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## hati (24 June 2010)

You mention Cool Corran Cool Diamond - I am very lucky that I own 2 legs of a fablous mare by him out of an Ard Alley Cat mare - she is only 7 and came 25th this year in the 1 star at Tatts and has been longlisted for YR team training. 

I can't wait to get a foal from her in the future - though we may consider embryo transfer in the next year or two.


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## flyingharp (24 June 2010)

ewf said:



			To me his breeding shows that no matter the breed or type if you breed right you get excellence. He's by GP jumping RID out of a mare who had a hell of a jump by a sire of showjumpers. His 3/4 brother(same dam and sires sire) was bred using the same formula and came back from the states with 130 sj points, alot from 1.30s.
		
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Poking my head in from lurkdom...ewf, are you talking about Prescott's Diamond (Flagmount King ex The Blarney Rose/Holycross)?  Saw him jump at his inspections and thought he had more than a bit of talent over poles (free-jumping anyway).  Quite good mover for an RID as well, and ID-typey.

Would be interested to see pics of the 3/4 brother if this is the horse you mean.

Liz in America


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## Eothain (24 June 2010)

Interesting fact about Coolcorron Cool Diamond: There were more foals born in France by him in 2006 than in Ireland


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## magic104 (24 June 2010)

This link shows a nice example of one of CCD's daughters & photos of her offspring, the sort I assume some of you guys are aiming for? http://www.sporthorse-data.com/db.php?i=10508881&time=1277401767

I have to say the ones I have seen including the son had good movement & have been nice looking horses.  I saw another son about 4yrs ago eventing at Novice level, but cant remember his name.  He does not seem to have covered that many mares, info taken from 1999 16 Mares Covered in 1998, 15 Foals registered in 1999 (7 Colts, 8 Fillies). 26 Foals Registered in total (12 Colts, 14 Fillies).  In 1999 he covered 26 mares with 21 foals being recorded.  In 2002 only 18 foals recorded from 25 mares covered, this is nothing compared to other stallions listed.  Though Cougar only manged 5 foals that year from 9 mares covered in 2001.  Coverings for 2001 were 260 by TB sires, 237 ID's, 483 ISH, 38 WNTR & 277 Foreign Breed sires.  In 2006 though Cougar covered 34 mares with 28 reg in 2007.

Has anyone seen 2006 Corgary Flash bred by Denis Noone who is ex of a Cruising mare (Castle Cruising) by Watervalley Cool Diamond?  Curious to see what this mix produces.


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## hati (25 June 2010)

wow interesting fact to see that CCD covered more mares in France than in Ireland in recent years.

A picture of the CCD mare that we have eventing at the minute
http://www.sportingimagesni.co.uk/m..._Photographer_2&id=_M2K9405.jpg&pg=3&count=96


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## magic104 (25 June 2010)

hati said:



			wow interesting fact to see that CCD covered more mares in France than in Ireland in recent years.

A picture of the CCD mare that we have eventing at the minute
http://www.sportingimagesni.co.uk/m..._Photographer_2&id=_M2K9405.jpg&pg=3&count=96

Click to expand...

You cant be unhappy with that one.  Is she easy to deal with also?  Just the few I have met have been very nice people, quiet chilled in their outlook, despite in one case the mare being a highly strung individual.  I could not justify his stud fee for my mare which is why I used a son.  Sadly he was too small, but has the most laid back temperment & shows a good clean pair of heels over a fence.


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## GrassHorse (25 June 2010)

CCD is approved by the Selle Francais studbook. Not to many Irish horses hold such a prestigious title. Cruising and Sea Creast also App SF. I think Irish breeders are going back to CCD this year, I know one person who plans to go with two mares.


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## hati (25 June 2010)

magic104 said:



			You cant be unhappy with that one.  Is she easy to deal with also?  Just the few I have met have been very nice people, quiet chilled in their outlook, despite in one case the mare being a highly strung individual.  I could not justify his stud fee for my mare which is why I used a son.  Sadly he was too small, but has the most laid back temperment & shows a good clean pair of heels over a fence.
		
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she has the most fantastic tempermant - her biggest problem is food! She loves her food and is constantly on a diet.


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## magic104 (26 June 2010)

she has the most fantastic tempermant - her biggest problem is food! She loves her food and is constantly on a diet. - The grnd son's the same though he is possessive over his & was the only time he put his ears back!


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## magic104 (26 June 2010)

Forgot I had a photo of the CCD horse at MK, it was the same year my mare went in-foal to one of his son's.


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## Irishlife (26 June 2010)

Good luck to all the Irish horses at Hickstead this weekend. Satisfying to see some true Irish Breeding in the International classes.

The guy who trains my young un's has two through to the Speed Derby final and also Derby on Sunday. Fair play to him, a jobbing rider who is just under the radar and works bloody hard. 

Which leads on to the young horse production question which to my mind is every bit as important as the breeding in the first place. We need more good producers and educated riders to make a job of the horses we have, then I do think we will see more traditional breds making a mark again. There are those riders who can get every ounce out of a horse and those that make a disaster of a horse so what is the point of breeding if the production is not right?


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## Eothain (26 June 2010)

What's he riding in the Derby? He told me in Mullingar he was taking LCD in the Speed Derby. I presume it's Damian that does your youngsters!


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## Irishlife (26 June 2010)

Yes, he is on LCD (Billy). 16 faults last time. also Kilrush Road (Diamond Serpent).  Good few others in the start lists with some ISH breeding. 

Did not mention names as never sure if people like it though I am sure he won't mind the compliments.

btw - Diamond Serpent has no breeding recorded yet someone must know - any clues???

Where you jumping this weekend E? We are at Corandulla then couple of leagues in the week, just with the young ones and also got a couple of show hunters out (yawn!!!)


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## Irishlife (26 June 2010)

I take it all back, he didn't start in the Derby trial so no Derby this year. Hope he does well in the Speed Derby though. Olive has two in the Derby, Alex has Courtown. Will look forward to CM Finn's round!!!!

Interesting for Will Funnell, if he pulls it off on Mondriann then he equals Eddie - 4 on the same horse, but he also has Billy Congo in.........


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## Eothain (26 June 2010)

No where this weekend. Will have an expensive weekend next week with Blessington. So while I was going to try and get out a Touchdown/Cruising youngster today to the Saturday league in Mullingar, I'll wait until Friday because they're having a three day show. So I'll jump him on friday and off to Coilog for Blessington on Saturday and Sunday.

I'm sure he won't mind. Nothing like a bit of publicity!

Billy Congo ... What a horse! I love him. Scanned my Jasmine mare in foal to Vechta on thursday, for those not in the know, Vechta is Billy Congo's sire. The mare went in foal with twins but thankfully lost one for the day 33 scan. I'll be honest, fingers crossed for a filly!

Off to Lancelot for her then next year.


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## Irishlife (26 June 2010)

Congrats on Jasmine. Would love to use Lancelot with my non Irish hat on but he is too closely related to the mare. Terrific horse though.

As for me I am STILL waiting for positive scans I am getting sick of it at this stage


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## Eothain (26 June 2010)

It's funny. This year I used Vechta on her. A successful jumping stallion already with Internationally competing progeny including Billy Congo for GB and Billy Bianca for the US. He is sired by Voltaire.

Next year I hope to use Lancelot on her. A successful jumping stallion already with Internationally competing progeny including Rosinus for GB and Tristan for the US. He is sired by Voltaire.

See a pattern?

My Duca Di Busted mare is scanned in foal to Puissance and my Classic Vision was covered for the second time on thursday to Sirillo. I didn't use Watermill Swatch in the end.

Two mares in foal, one to go. One foal left to arrive out of a mare who's coming back into work and will hopefully compete next year in foal to Condios.

At least thats Plan A!!!


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## rebel mountain (26 June 2010)

Irishlife said:



			Yes, he is on LCD (Billy). 16 faults last time. also Kilrush Road (Diamond Serpent).  Good few others in the start lists with some ISH breeding. 

Did not mention names as never sure if people like it though I am sure he won't mind the compliments.

btw - Diamond Serpent has no breeding recorded yet someone must know - any clues???

Where you jumping this weekend E? We are at Corandulla then couple of leagues in the week, just with the young ones and also got a couple of show hunters out (yawn!!!)
		
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think diamond serpant is by king of diamonds  out of a water serpant mare called serp or vice versa
just going by what it says in the 2006 field directory


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## ewf (26 June 2010)

flyingharp said:



			Poking my head in from lurkdom...ewf, are you talking about Prescott's Diamond (Flagmount King ex The Blarney Rose/Holycross)?  Saw him jump at his inspections and thought he had more than a bit of talent over poles (free-jumping anyway).  Quite good mover for an RID as well, and ID-typey.

Would be interested to see pics of the 3/4 brother if this is the horse you mean.

Liz in America
		
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Got it in one 

Charlies owner also bred Paddy(Prescotts Diamonds) and Rosie was in foal to Carrabawn view when she was sold.

Also to criticise the inspection process, Paddy was inspected and approved in the US and was inspected and graded S1 by the same(exact same) judges in Ireland

I'll see what I have of Charlie here and PM you Liz


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## Simsar (26 June 2010)

Billy who??  Sorry you mean the black horse I pass every day YUK. Sorry only joking, Will was on him the other day when I stopped to have a chat about our colt, its alright I suppose.


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## Eothain (27 June 2010)

You'll use him some day!


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## Simsar (27 June 2010)

Who william?


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## Eothain (27 June 2010)

Are you trying to breed Centaurs now too?


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## Simsar (27 June 2010)

Maybe, least he could tell the vet where it hurts.


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## Eothain (27 June 2010)

You use William, I'll use Billy Congo. Let's see which equine has a better career!!!


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## rebel mountain (27 June 2010)

any result on how cruisings mickey finn got on in the hickstead derby today


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## Irishlife (27 June 2010)

CMF - Eliminated unfortunately. Mo Chroi was 3rd.


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## GrassHorse (27 June 2010)

CMF hit the brakes hard at the 3rd jump! Olive Clarke got soaked. Very funny moment.


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## Eothain (30 June 2010)

And as I lay this thread down to sleep, the info in it I hope readers keep!

Folks, I think this thread has run it's course and as the song says, it's time to say goodbye.

Breeding in Ireland is almost as divisive as politics. In my mind, the horses named in my original post last march have plenty to offer the ISH going forward. The choice is there, if you want to use warmblood stallions like Cornet Obolensky and co then work away. They go out and compete week after week after week. They must be doing something right. I still say the 1970s brigade have their heads shoved up their backsides and no longer can see reality but hey, let them off to try and salvage glory days we'll never see again.

The tb x id cross has, like this thread, run it's course on the world stage and now we need something more.

To the American posters, I'd like to thank you for your contributions but I'd like you to understand that we're sick of seeing your showjumpers buying horses from the continent. If our horses were good enough, you wouldn't have to travel so far. It's a pity that there isn't another couple of hundred horses like Flexible in this country for sale.

Flexible ... Who's he by again?

To our British colleagues, I'd like to thank you for bravely trying to get us to not breed just another warmblood. I'm sure many in this country will be only too happy to agree with you and once they produce the happy hacker bread and butter horse that will hunt and play away as an all rounder, they'll be happy. It is a pity however that few of our showjumping horses are making it on to your Nations Cup teams. The GIG Amai's and Peppermill's of this world have outclassed what we have to offer. Only through use of what's available from continental breeding will we reverse the downward trend. We must fight fire with fire. There's not too many horses like Fresh Direct Kalico Bay coming through our ranks. We must change that!!!

Kalico Bay ... What's his mother by?

To my fellow Irish, it's been fun and yes we are divided but I wish you the best of luck in your breeding programs and if any of you can breed a future superstar showjumper from only using tb and id horses, I can assure, I'll be first to tip my hat! Good luck in salvaging our sullied reputation. At least we can say we had plenty of ISHs in the Hickstead Derby. Horses like the Puissance sired Highpark Lad and the Harlequin Du Carel sired Dorada and also Kellswater Crimson, Cruising's Mickey Finn and Mo Chroi. We need more of them please!

Mo Chroi, Cruising's Mickey Finn and Kellswater Crimson ... Who's their sire?

You see I'll finish with this and when I say finish, I mean I'll finish as a regular post on this forum, I haven't much enjoyed it these past few weeks. This place is changing and not necessarily for the better.

The ID people can keep their King Of Diamonds and Clover Hills,  the Warmblood fans can have their Landgrafs and Cavalier Royales, the Thoroughbred people can hold on to their Master Imps and Sea The Stars because when all is said and done, there can only ever be one absolute very best horse, of any breed, of any type, of any discipline, of any size, of any shape. There can be only one absolute very best horse of all time, one absolute very best horse to have ever lived. I leave you now with my conviction even firmer than when I joined this forum. The Warmbloods may be whooping our back sides at the moment but one horse kicked tail when he was in the ring himself and that same horse kicks tail through the achievements of his progeny and his progeny's progeny in the ring today. No one can ever take that away from us. Never ever forget that. It's a pity traditional Irish breeding hasn't given us more like him. Truly he was mana from heaven. Truly if God were a horse he would choose to be this one.

Firmly, I do believe that he is greater than all others.

Ladies and Gentlemen make sure you live out all your days knowing that the absolute very best of all time, is indeed The Great; Cruising!

My friends, it's been fun. I'm sure I'll drop in from time to time.
I bid you now farewell and think it's time we bid farewell to this thread. If an admin is reading this, I think it's time to lock this up once and for all.

Goodbye my friends


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## Alec Swan (1 July 2010)

Eothain,

history alone,  will decide whether you're right,  or not.  For myself,  I believe that you are.  When I next visit your delightful homeland,  then I may well seek you out.

I've learnt a great deal,  from the collective thoughts of all the contributors,  for which I'm truly grateful.

Alec.


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## Simsar (1 July 2010)

Bye! x


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## Simsar (1 July 2010)

YOu can't leave until 25.000 views.


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## Maesfen (1 July 2010)

I don't think anybody should be allowed to leave, especially one as informative as Eothian, wouldn't be the same without him.


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## magic104 (1 July 2010)

RIP thread it will be some time before another matches your scores.  Cruising with not an ounce of WB in him proving what talent the IDxTB has.


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## Simsar (1 July 2010)

He will be back he won't be able to help himself. LOL


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## Irishlife (1 July 2010)

That's true, I will sneak up behind him at a Grand Prix somewhere and tell him someone has been slating the Cruise Meister on H&H!!!

It has without question been a great few months of opinions and useful, thoughtful and interesting dialogue and everyone has made a fantastic contribution. Everything moves on and everything changes so it will be interesting to see where we are moving to given a few years. I vote for an annual reunion  every March at the beginning of the breeding season entitled

"Happy Days for ISH Breeders 2011".

Thanks all and best of fortune in the future whatever your path xxxx


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## gadetra (1 July 2010)

Here here. RIP thread too, it has to have been the most informative and interesting thread on this forum. 
I like Irishlife's idea of an annual 'Happy Days for ISH Breeders' reunion thread-or would that be a comemerative thread?
Anyway, good luck everyone on what ever side of teh ISH fence you are on. Onwards and upwards!!


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## Simsar (13 July 2010)

OK getting withdrawal symptoms now.


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## Alec Swan (13 July 2010)

Simsar,

you're not alone.  Hang on,  I've had a bright idea.........!

Alec.


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## Irishlife (13 July 2010)

Same as that


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## Simsar (23 August 2010)

Anything to add??


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## Alec Swan (23 August 2010)

Simsar,

to add,  no,  but to ask,  most certainly.  So often through that simply fascinating thread,  which I have to tell you I still miss,  the thoughts of others ebbed and flowed.  I had a question,  but somehow,  the time never seemed right.

It's this;  "How are 'Mare Lines' formed"?,  and perhaps importantly,  what are they?  So often,  and I'm sure correctly,  we're told that the mare is of equal,  if not greater importance than the stallion.  Just about every breeding discussion revolves around the stallion.  The mares only ever seem to receive a cursory mention.  Why?

My particular interest would be to breed successful event horses.  It seems to me that to reduce the lottery effect,  we need a similar system to that used within the TB industry,  namely,  sound advice.  It needs to go a step further than hypothesising about the "possible" results of a breeding plan.

I accept that within the racing industry,  the results of theory are sooner evaluated.  Those horses which race tend to reward the more thoughtful matings,  within two or three years.  Sport horses,  from which ever discipline,  only seem to show results by the age of seven,  or eight years onwards.

Mare lines?  What are they,  and how are they decided upon?  "That might work",  wont do,  surely.

Thank you,  Simsar!

Alec.


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## Eothain (24 August 2010)

Wow, it seems like this thread will never die, even though I tried to put it to sleep ages ago!

Mare lines? What are mare lines?

The best example of a successful mare line that I use when explaining them is the Selle Francais mare Tanagra.

She was by the Thoroughbred stallion Furioso and was the mother of Jalisco B when she was crossed with the wonderful stallion Alme. When crossed with the Thoroughbred stallion Night And Day she produced Geisha N, the dam of the Galoubet sired stallion Ephebe For Ever. Then when Tanagra was crossed with Galoubet sired by Alme, she produced Quanagra who in turn was crossed with the Trakenher stallion Abdullah and produced the stallion Cabdula Du Tillard.

Now this mare, Tanagra, was responsible though entirely by herself, for quite a sizeable proportion of France's best horses. Many of the world's best horses have her in their pedigree.

So what worked for her? Well clearly she was an exceptional mare before she was ever bred from. Her mother Delicieuse, by Jus de Pomme, was a jumping winner in her own right. So Tanagra was born with a purpose, there was performance in her breeding already.

The stallion Night And Day was a producer of many fine competition horses and when crossed with Tanagra produced the International performers Danoso and Escurial as well as the afforementioned Geisha N who was a national and international Grand Prix winner with Jeannou Lefebvre and my own favourite French rider, Eric Navet in her own right.

Galoubet A was Fountainbleau Champion as a five year old and went to International level at seven years of age so needless to say he was a stallion that was fit for a mare like Tanagra. Their daughter Quanagra produced Viking Du Tillard the 1996 Olympian and Cabdula Du Tillard, international showjumper and hugely popular French stallion.

What can I say about Alme that will do him justice? Anyway, he was crossed with Tanagra and produced Jalisco B who went on to produce some ... _pretty[/] ... useful horses!!!

So! Where was I then? Mare lines! What are they? In my opinion, they should be a succesion of very good performing mothers and daughters who have very good performing stallions as sires.

The above example of that wonderful mare Tanagra gives some insight in to what a successful mare line is. A mother who could jump and pass on the good genes to a bunch of sons and daughters who could jump and pass on the good genes to a bunch of sons and daughters etc etc etc

The daughters can't just be covered with any random stallion though, there must be performance from him too for the cycle to continue and improve.

I'm waiting for the Draught brigade to flame me now for using a dirty word like performance or jump and tell about the exceptional cases where performance sires and dams haven't produced performance progeny!!!

I hope this made sense Alec_


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## Simsar (24 August 2010)

Eothain I think you are very right in what you say and maybe here in lies the problem with the draughts and Irish Sport horses, I have tried to research alot of the good mare lines and find it hard to get the info that I require, sure there are a few(Gowran Betty, Trump Carder, Queen of Trumps etc Funnily all sired by a son of Errigal though!) but most of them have incomplete pedigrees that you would not find in Europe and also did not compete themselves so you therefor have to wait to find out whether there youngstock will be able to.

You are right when you said earlier in the post that the Europeans are years ahead of us, but this is because they follow a strict breeding program that Ireland doesn't and they also have have specialists in each field (breeding, production, competeing etc)

Not sure where I am going with this atm.. will leave it a hour have a coffee and wake up  then come back to it.


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## GinnieRedwings (24 August 2010)

The dead has risen! Allelujah!!!


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## magic104 (24 August 2010)

We go on about mares proving their performance, yet when did Tanagra have time?  She was born in 1963 & had foals from the age of 4.  Beau Prince IV 1967, Cantilene 1968, Danoso 1969, Escurial 1970, Geishan N 1972, Icone 1974, Jalisco B 1975, Kioto II 1976, Maharanee 1978, Nykias 1979, Oviedo II 1980, Quanagra 1982, Ruyblas 1983.  Tanagra had at least 2 full sisters Scheherazade & Venus D along with 2 full brothers, Phebus & Ukamarua were they also sucessful?

I only ask because if she never competed herself, how does anyone know she would have stayed sound, or got to international level?  By the time her 1st born was showing his ability she had produced 4 more.  Yet time and again on here posters state how important it is for the mare to have proved herself as a performance mare, when cleary that is not the case.  This mare I would say was far more sucessful then most stallions harped on about because statistically she has a higher strike rate.  Look at how many offspring she has produced compared to the stallions that covered her.  Also I am sure it helped that they were also then produced in a way that utilised their abilities.  

No doubt the UK & Ireland have missed out because of their lacksie daisy attitude to keeping records.  How many unnamed TB's have gone on to perform or produce performers, but the pedigrees have been lost?  It can be a pain tracing through bloodlines when horses names are changed/altered.  It means that though you have things like sporthorse database, NED etc data is still missing, a stallion or mare for that instance can be recorded twice or more with offspring spread across them.  NED is full of performance horses who are unlinked to their offspring.  They state this is because "all our datacomes from the various authorised issuing organisations and we aremerely a window to their data. Any discrepancies actually lie with theseorganisations, but NED is continuing to endeavour to assist theseorganisations in resolving these discrepancies."  Yet the BE will show sire & dam on their website, but the records on NED dont??  Then you have the VII issue that comes with NTR reg horses, if BE or NED dont show the NTR recorded name in full it can be difficult again to tie this horse in with all its offspring.  Therefore it has been struggle to pin down the best performing mares & their offspring, or even keep track of bloodlines.


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## Eothain (24 August 2010)

Ok, well, eh I know nothing about NED. We don't have anything like it in Ireland. SURPRISE!!!!
As for Tanagra, well her mother jumped internationally and I know her full brother Phebus jumped internationally so she didn't have to because the family she came from was already successful.

I know that in Ireland there's a full sister to the Dublin Grand Prix winner Mo Chroi breeding while Mo Chroi keeps jumping. I don't know the sister's name but why would she have to bother jumping? The family is already successful.

Different for a mare who comes from a family that never performed, they might have never been asked to perform or whatever but they need to prove themselves and prove their worth somehow.

And what's more, not all horses have to retire sound before embarking on a breeding career. Accidents happen and whatnot and people get thrown curve balls. We can't throw away our best jumping genes because they might not have stayed 100% sound all the way through their career.


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## wigum (24 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			You are right when you said earlier in the post that the Europeans are years ahead of us, but this is because they follow a strict breeding program that Ireland doesn't and they also have have specialists in each field (breeding, production, competeing etc)
		
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I'm not going to speculate on the exact reason why pedigrees weren't tracked closely over here. There are plenty of tales of horses sent to the stallion down the road and then the offspring being sold at a fair as 'believed to be by cavalier' etc but no book to prove it. Anyway whatever the reasons for this, it has done untold damage.

I have to commend HSI for a few things but the main one I can see them doing is that at every event i have been to organised them lately information evenings about mare gradings etc. they have banged the drum of performance mare lines.

At the finals of the HSI showjumping series they created a handbook very similar in layout to a sales catalog at TB sales. At the top it had a breakdown of the horses pedigree. Below that it had a breakdown of what the Dam, 2nd Dam and 3rd Dam had done themselves and what they had produced. 
It was a pretty obvious example of what was right and wrong with breeding in Ireland. There was a high number of horses qualified with incomplete 3 generation pedigrees, horses with 3 generations of pedigree but no performance or performing offspring of the dam, 2nd dam or third dam. There was a horse there that was bred to be a jumper when the dam has produced a very well known 4* eventer.
Then there were little Gems showing the value of a really good mare line.
Milano - a half brother to a horse who has jumped at lanaken as a 5 and 6  year old, his second dam bred Lord Clare who jumped internationally.

BP blondey - Full brother to Dorada (prolific winner of classes international including Dublin, Aachen & Hickstead) half brother to Camblin (international jumper) whose second dam bred a 1.20/1.30 horse.

More of these things need to be done to highlight the value to onlookers of a true performance pedigrees based on the mares and not the old chestnut hes a Cavalier x Cloverhill x King of diamonds hes bound to be a jumper when everything for three generations of that original mare had soundness issues or couldnt jump out of their own way.


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## gadetra (24 August 2010)

I have another slightly different question. 
I went to the seminar in Dublin this year after the stallion parade about :'the emergence of a pan european studbook versus individual studboooks' or something like that. The hannovarian and Holstein guys jus talked about their studbooks with no mention of the seminar question but the KWPN guy did mention it. He also judged the 3 yr old loose jumping as well and one of his comments was that we need to develop the croup and the back and this will not happen for 4 or 5 generations. At the seminar he said the same pretty much and that we were waaay behind the continentals performance and conformation wise. He judged the fillies higher than the colts and geldings as well so surely that's a good starting point at least?
Anyway, my question to him that I never got to ask, inspite of pointing up hand (it then finished before i got to ask!!)was what would he do to rectify this problem? What would he cross those 3 yr old fillies with to get the desired result? How would he go about organising this? 
Mare lines are PARAMOUNT to the improvement of our sport horses, but he gave no answer as to what he would do to improve them. 
Any thoughts? Do people agree or disagree?


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## gadetra (24 August 2010)

Also: Welcome back thread!!


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## Eothain (24 August 2010)

I was at that seminar too. I loved the way they were trying to say nice things about our horses!!! Where were you sitting? I wanted to ask a question as well!!!


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## gadetra (24 August 2010)

No way! I came in kind of late I was sitting on the right hand side kind of in the middle but there were only 2 people behind me, a blond guy and a dark haired girl? Where were u?
It was some race over after the parade wasn't it!!
Yeah they tried hard to say nice things about our horses...by not mentioning them and talking about their own!!
I thought the Honnovarian and Holstein guys were rude the way they talked through the KWPN guy's presentation-the most interesting one!
He got a bit of a boo at the 3yr old loose jumping for his comments but he was right really


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## Eothain (24 August 2010)

The blonde guy!


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## gadetra (24 August 2010)

Ha ha ha ha no way!! I think you were behind me then-my sister was sitting beside me to the outside and I was the one with the short hair on the inside!
HA ha that's mad. At least we can put faces to the posts now.Oh I'm Deborah by the way. (waves)
I didn't like how he gave no one the chance to ask questions. Suspicious. 
Anyway what did you think about what he said?
And his prediction of how long it'll take to put 'right'? and the conformational problems he pointed out?
Anybody????


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## GrassHorse (24 August 2010)

I was sitting front row right. I asked jacques Verkerk, kwpm guy, a couple of questions at the very end.
 I asked him what stallions should we use on Irish mares?. He said we need more power and horses like Indoctro, Ustinov were good sires for power.
 I also asked him what were the up and caoming young stallions in Holland? He said Baltic was good, I think he meant VDL Baltic. 
And then a girl asked him what stallion would suit a mare with a lot of blood? He said Carthino z. We really picked his brains!
He said we should go look at the kwpn website where you can see the reports on all kwpn stallions. It gives scores on everything. We need this in Ireland.


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## Navalgem (24 August 2010)

GrassHorse said:



			He said we should go look at the kwpn website where you can see the reports on all kwpn stallions. It gives scores on everything. We need this in Ireland.
		
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We need this in England too...... I wish more studbooks would follow the KWPN's example.


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## Alec Swan (24 August 2010)

Eothain said:



			I know that in Ireland there's a full sister to the Dublin Grand Prix winner Mo Chroi breeding while Mo Chroi keeps jumping. I don't know the sister's name but why would she have to bother jumping? The family is already successful.
		
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In that statement,  the problem may well lie.  Accepting that there will be a higher degree of quirky behaviour from the female,  than the male,  in the ridden horse,  the fact that a mare has breeding and that alone,  would raise a question mark.  

There will be those mares which are sweetness and light whilst you're on the ground,  but a witch,  when ridden,  and then there are those which will be the reverse.  I "think" that the reverse would make the better brood mare,  and more likely to replicate herself.  Do we not,  after all,  need a mare who would be more likely to produce a rideable animal,  than one which wont?

By all means tell me that I'm wrong,  but I suspect that the more able mare who has "demonstrated" her abilities,  her scope,  her acceptance of pressure,  her power and her generally ridden demeanour,  will be the mare to breed from.  A year,  or so ago,  someone on this forum shouted at me "Breed from the best,  and ride the rest".  Did they have a point?

Again,  tell me that I'm wrong,  if you wish,  but do you wonder if those mares which tick EVERY box,  should be taken from competition and bred from?  There must be many brood mares which have been taken out of competition,  because you may just as well have tried riding a cow,  and then used for breeding,  but to what end?

When Ireland led the world,  then the financial pressures were not so great.  Today,  I suspect,  that a mare which can jump,  REALY jump,  will continue with her career within sport.  Her sale price could fund a season for one or more other horses,  or pay for a further range of boxes,  and so,  quite understandably,  she's sold.  

Are the ideal brood mares still being ridden,  and not bred from?  To draw from your last post...."but why should she have to bother jumping"....,  would it not be to demonstrate that she actually can,  and more importantly that she wants to?  

I'm not contradicting others,  I simply want to know!!

Alec.


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## JonnisSwe (25 August 2010)

irishdraught said:



			That is what Ireland is famous for and that is why people keep going back to Ireland for their eventers.
		
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True, however your horses are very cheap compared to the horses in Europe and particularly Sweden. Thats why we have lots of irish horses and ponnies here. Many goes to Ireland, buys 2-5 horses, goes back to Sweden and then sell the horses/ponnies for 2000-3000 pounds more.


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## GinnieRedwings (25 August 2010)

Alec Swan said:



			Are the ideal brood mares still being ridden,  and not bred from?  
Alec.
		
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Alec, I think these days they can actually do both. I remember Lucinda Fredericks commenting on the fact that on the year she won Badminton (or was it Burleigh - my brain's gone to mush), Headley Brittania had "had" 3 foals - by embryo transfer, obviously!

Gadetra, the KPWN guy's comment "that we need to develop the croup and the back and this will not happen for 4 or 5 generations" I think personally is spot on. I train a 4 year old gelding out of a really excellent IDxTB (no pedigree recorded at all - typical import from Ireland found in a field and brought to England with no papers!) by Suma Murphy's Law (RID I think). That horse is gorgeous, huge potential in every way, but clumsy as hell and a weak back end - looks more like a 2 year old than a 4 year old from the whithers back. I'm sure that with *a lot* of work and a bit of maturity, it will be ok, but he is certaily lacking in NATURAL strength in that area.


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## Eothain (25 August 2010)

In regards to each individual mare showing their own merit let me just say that if you've a mare that is out there competing and is a real top string horse, then she can't really be pulled from competition to go breeding unless there's a replacement for her.

If there is a younger sister, then happy days because the younger sister can go breeding while big sister continues to compete.

Embryo transfer still isn't widely practiced


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## gadetra (25 August 2010)

JonnisSwe said:



			True, however your horses are very cheap compared to the horses in Europe and particularly Sweden. Thats why we have lots of irish horses and ponnies here. Many goes to Ireland, buys 2-5 horses, goes back to Sweden and then sell the horses/ponnies for 2000-3000 pounds more.
		
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Sad but true. Sigh. I've sold mine to England and seen them turned around 6 months later for double the price. It's heartbreaking sometimes. But what can you do? Wait 6 months for a better price when you need the price of them to feed look after the one's you have left? It's very east start collecting them at that!
Hi Grasshorse *waves accross the room*
I agree that the Irish horse is somewhat weak accross the back, and this urgently needs to be addressed as it's one of the most important things to consider breeding a showjumper.
However, Irish horses take aaaaages to mature alonside their eurpoean counterparts and with maturity comes the power. I also think the Irish horse has a much better hindleg. I've seen to many continentals with straight hocks. 
However conformationaly, the Irish horse is so much tougher than the warmblood. It's confirmation keeps it sounder and enables it to compete into older age than the warmblood. This toughness we cannot afford to lose. So where is the happy medium?


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## GrassHorse (25 August 2010)

I was carefully watching the continentals jumping in the big grand prix on sunday. It was really obvious what Jacques Verkerk was talking about. The continentals horses are bigger and have serious take off power. Even if they meet a big parralel a bit short, its no problem for them. Irish horses look a bit plain and weak in comparison.


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## Navalgem (25 August 2010)

Well perhaps but the continental breeding x'ed with 'typical' (please dont' shoot me!) Irish breeding works well.  I challenge anyone who has seen 'Bob' to tell me he doesn't have scope and power.  It definately works.  He's a 6yo by Condios out of Timoneys Girl who is by Campaigner xx out of a mare by King of Diamonds.


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## gadetra (26 August 2010)

If the ISH is only required as a foundation breed (i.e. as a grandam etc.) to be crossed with a warmblood to produce performance then we may be looking at a serious decline of the Irish stamp. It'll be another ID like argument yikes!
So is the future a step away from individual studbooks/breeds and a step towards one homogenous 'type'? Bit extreme sorry but if you think about it...


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## Eothain (26 August 2010)

Don't see it happening. There'll never be a pan-European studbook because there's too many conflicting factors. By using different foreign lines to improve our own we'll keep a teeny tiny piece of tradition. But we shouldn't be bound to the past. The ID as a breed is dead to me. We should be bound not to the past but to the future.

Once the ISH studbook reaches #1 again in the WBFSH rankings, then the ends will have justified the means.


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## GrassHorse (26 August 2010)

gadetra said:



			If the ISH is only required as a foundation breed (i.e. as a grandam etc.) to be crossed with a warmblood to produce performance then we may be looking at a serious decline of the Irish stamp.
		
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Hi Gadetra,
I think the Irish stamp will always be here. It wil only take one or two really popular WB x ISH stallions to keep the Irish stamp. Touchdown is evidence of this. Jack of Diamonds is getting really good mares and if his progeny perform well, then the whole country will head for lissava. Even if your ISH mare is by a warmblood you will essentially be adding more ISH than WB to the foal.


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## Alec Swan (27 August 2010)

GinnieRedwings,

exactly,  we have 2 embryos in place and from an advanced mare.  Frustratingly,  this throws up yet another question.  Are these advanced mares,  NECESSARILY the way to go?  Are there any early transfers which are now proving their worth?  What would they be,  5-7 years?

Do the top class mares actually replicate themselves,  in their offspring,  accepting that the pairing was reasonably correct?  

Are those hugely promising mares which have gone into breeding through injury,  actually producing valued foals?  

Eothain,  I take it that were you spoilt for choice,  then you would consider using the best mare,  to breed with.  It's obviously been done,  so does anyone know of the results?  Magic104,  your research abilities seem to me to be remarkable.  Do you have any light to throw on this?

Alec.


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## Eothain (27 August 2010)

This breeding malark is funny! I know a man who is a successful breeder that has bred at least 2 horses that have been on winning Nations Cups. He has a full sister to a mare that won a Nations Cup and a couple of 5* Grand Prix in Europe. He thinks that the non-performing sister has actually made the better broodmare.

Just when you think you have all the answers, the questions change!


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## GinnieRedwings (27 August 2010)

Alec Swan said:



			Are these advanced mares,  NECESSARILY the way to go?  Are there any early transfers which are now proving their worth?  What would they be,  5-7 years?

Do the top class mares actually replicate themselves,  in their offspring,  accepting that the pairing was reasonably correct?  
Alec.
		
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Million Pound (or Euro) questions Alec. The problem is that collecting, analysing and publishing the data to produce the figures that would give you that answer for certain (in the format... 78.6% of foals born to advance event mares in 1999 have gone on to become advance eventers themselves etc...) would be a subject for a PhD project!!! I mean, as has been mentioned in this thread before, there are so many parametres that modify the equation, injury rates, production... that the level of involvement required would be prohibitive for an amateur... 

That being said, I am pretty certain this has been done in the racing industry, where money to finance such useful projects is no object. So on the balance of probabilities, the answer to your question is probably yes - otherwise, why would the TB studs carry on doing what they are doing in the way they are doing it?    



Alec Swan said:



			Are those hugely promising mares which have gone into breeding through injury,  actually producing valued foals?  
Alec.
		
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That would be a good part of the above-mentioned PhD project... 

Lack of scientifically collated and analysed data over many years will always amount to the "feeling" breeders get, collective popular myth, personal opinion - no answer at all, really!


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## GrassHorse (13 September 2010)

A horse by Puissance made 16,000 euro at goresbridge today!


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## Eothain (13 September 2010)

Fantastic! Puissance is a great progenator. I'm sure the horse was worth every penny


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## JanetGeorge (14 September 2010)

Eothain said:



			The ID as a breed is dead to me. We should be bound not to the past but to the future.

Once the ISH studbook reaches #1 again in the WBFSH rankings, then the ends will have justified the means.
		
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And then along comes Lenamore (again!) to prove the true worth of the RID x!  Still sound and winning Burghley at 17 years of age!  Methinks you risk throwing baby out with the bathwater!

Let's LOOK at the WBFSH rankings - for eventing:

No 2:  Jumbo - by an RID stallion (Skippy, in case you'd forgotten)
No.4: Cruising - by an RID stallion called -let me see - Sea Crest (also sire of Lenamore and goodness knows how many others!)  And 26th on the World Rankings.

One MIGHT suggest that Cruising and Sea Crest are two stallions who have more than done their bit for the WBFSH rankings!  Add Errigal Flight and more than a few others ....

Maybe itwill be their daughters - put to Warmbloods or TBs - who will get Ireland to the top of the WBFSH rankings - will you then credit the ID part of the pedigree, or put it all down to a WB sire??


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## Eothain (14 September 2010)

Seacrest, the Irish Draught that goes back to the great thoroughbred Arctic Que?

Yes, the best Irish Draughts, that wonderfully pure breed have a thoroughbred cross in them.

So, tell me, where's Sea Crest's replacement or did the pure bred snobbery of ID breeders wound it?

Fatally I'd say


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## Eothain (14 September 2010)

Let's not forget great Irish Draught horses like Ginger Dick and Pride Of Shaunlara, they produced some fantastic horses but they're hardly purebred. As soon as purebred snobbery got it's teeth in and that silly Appendix Irish Draught scheme took off and Thoroughbred's weren't as commonly seen in ID pedigrees as they once were, the ID usefulness nosedived.

One of the best ID horses around today is Crosstown Dancer, here's a link to his pedigree. None of that purebred nonsense. Plently of thoroughbred in the pedigree and as a result, it's not uncommon to find him listed as a damsire in our young horse classes.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/crosstown+dancer

Then again, what would it matter, our young horses are sooo terribly produced that no one would want them.

You'd be better served boasting of the ID link to the Silver Medallist in the 6 Year Old World Championships, Drummiler Lough

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/drumiller+lough

Of course, you can if you'd like ignore the Dutch and Thoroughbred crosses in his pedigree but you wouldn't want to do that, would you Janet? I mean, why ignore the truth?


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## Simsar (14 September 2010)

I have to say for performance that I agree with you Eothain a good dash of TB is necessary. How ever would the ID be higher up the WBFSH ranks if it's breeding had been more regulated and if the Irish had realised what they had along time before they did??

 If you look through the pedigree of Drummiler Lough on both sides then you will notice that it peters out on the ID side between 50 and 100 years ago where on the sires side you can trace most of the lines back to at least 1800! On the sires side you can see a regular dollop of TB and Arab throughout the ages especially further back when they were put to the draught type mares to refine, essentially the WB is 50-100 yrs ahead of the ID in its breeding, add to that that they have thousands of mare and thousands of breeders and you are bound to be playing catch up.

 For the ID whether that be TBX or not to have two stallions in the top ten  is no mean feat when you study the numbers!!


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## JanetGeorge (15 September 2010)

Eothain said:



			Let's not forget great Irish Draught horses like Ginger Dick and Pride Of Shaunlara, they produced some fantastic horses but they're hardly purebred. As soon as purebred snobbery got it's teeth in and that silly Appendix Irish Draught scheme took off and Thoroughbred's weren't as commonly seen in ID pedigrees as they once were, the ID usefulness nosedived.
		
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Eothain - I think you're contrdicting yourself here.  That "silly AID scheme" is the way TBs have been kept in the ID pedigree - we still have a couple of RID stallions left who are quarter TB - and there is scope for the numbers to increase with the new grading up scheme introduced by HSI.  How is that 'pure-bred snobbery'??




			One of the best ID horses around today is Crosstown Dancer, here's a link to his pedigree. None of that purebred nonsense. Plently of thoroughbred in the pedigree and as a result, it's not uncommon to find him listed as a damsire in our young horse classes.
		
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A great horse indeed - but not a GREAT example of your point.  You need to look 4 generations back for ONE TB in Crosstown Dancer's pedigree - and of course he's linebred to the great Galty Boy who - even in 1922 - doesn't show full TB until 4th generation.




			You'd be better served boasting of the ID link to the Silver Medallist in the 6 Year Old World Championships, Drummiler Lough

Of course, you can if you'd like ignore the Dutch and Thoroughbred crosses in his pedigree but you wouldn't want to do that, would you Janet? I mean, why ignore the truth?
		
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What IS the truth??  That a very well bred European Warmblood put to a well bred ID SH mare can produce a top class competition horse?  Why on EARTH would I argue with that?  There are MANY examples of this sort of cross producing outstanding horses - I have one in my own yard which hopefully will prove to be outstanding (by Lombardo - http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/lombardo7) out of an Errigal Flight mare.

Of course there's no pure-bred snobbery in the KWPN -which should probably be described as a 'type' rther than a breed.  Lombardo - while graded KWPN - is by a Selle Francais stallion (arguably THE Selle Francais stallion) and out of a KWPN graded mare who was by a Holstein stallion out of a half TB mare!

And HSI is taking the ISH the same way - and good luck.  I sure don't have a problem with that.  I breed primarily pure-bred IDs - because that's where my interest lies - but I also breed ID SH horses (by the RID out of TB and TB cross mares.)  But I'm NOT aiming at the top competition horse market - if I was, I'd probably be putting my ID SH mares to a Warmblood!

Do I think the pure ID still has a role in competition horse breeding?  Yes - but possibly not so much in the first cross - except for eventing.  




			Seacrest, the Irish Draught that goes back to the great thoroughbred Arctic Que?
		
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Yep - Arctic Que is there - 4 generations back.  But he's also line-bred to Kildare and Brehon Law - both RIDS - and both with a dash of TB.  So wht's 'silly' about the AID scheme then??


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## JanetGeorge (15 September 2010)

Eothain said:



			Yes, the best Irish Draughts, that wonderfully pure breed have a thoroughbred cross in them.

So, tell me, where's Sea Crest's replacement or did the pure bred snobbery of ID breeders wound it?

Fatally I'd say
		
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You DO have a bee in your bonnet about 'pure bred snobbery', don't you??  I don't understand your problem.  A 'pure bred' is - by definition - relatively 'pure'.  Yes, the TB has been used in the ID over MANY years and it's hard to find an RID that doesn't have SOME TB in his/her pedigree.  It was introduced for good reason - genetic diversity being one - and improving 'quality' and 'athleticism' being another.  It hasn't ALWAYS been completely positive - the downside is loss of bone judging by most of the RID stallions graded in Ireland this year.

There ARE breeders here in the UK who oppose any more TB in the RID (they LIKE their clunky 'traditional' sorts  - but most of us appreciate the value of modest infusions of TB blood.  I have one AID mare, and her full sister faces the Inspectors next Tuesday.  The one AID has already had a foal to an RID stallion and he's a corker - plenty of bone but just that extra little bit of 'quality' around the head and neck which is often lacking in the more 'traditional' pure-breds.

As for Sea Crest's replacement, I think there are some waiting in the wings - it takes time for them to prove themselves.  One might be Grange Bouncer (and yes, I KNOW he goes back to The Tetrarch!)  But of course their rise to fame is NOT helped by the tendency of SOME Irish breeders to be remarkably sloppy about paperwork!  I have a stunning Irish-bred sport horse here at present - who definitely has top eventing potential - his 'breeding' is written in pencil on a basic 'identity' passport.  I'm inclined to believe he IS out of a Grange Bouncer mare - having owned a Grange Bouncer gelding - but if this chap ever does make it to the top, his breeding won't be recognised!


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## Eothain (15 September 2010)

Janet, did you read anything that was at the beginning of this thread? Or did you just jump in headlong hoping to frustrate me in to submission? This was an upbeat topic with loads of different contributors. They're all gone because this has gone on too long and it has lost it's lustre.

The whole idea of this was to point out to Irish breeders on the forum that some wonderful horses such as Cumano, Couleur Rubin, Andiamo, Cento, Levisto Z, Painted Black, Arko III and Montender had been approved for use by AI by the HSI. It was happy days that those of us who see the big picture could now use these horses to try and breed the superstars of the future who would return the ISH to the top of the WBFSH rankings in showjumping while the likes of Kings Master, Ghareeb, Cult Hero and Carrick Diamond Lad to name but a few, would continue to be used to keep our place at the top of the WBFSH rankings for Eventing.

Now you may wonder what I mean when I talk about the big picture. The WBFSH rankings is the big picture. For breeders like myself, breeding horses who can contribute to their studbook's position is the only show in town. Only the top 6 horses from each book are counted so it's a pretty elite bunch we're talking about.

Grange Bouncer has already been discussed at length, I'm not getting in to that again, I'll just say that to fill Sea Crest's shoes he'd want to have a lot more horses doing a lot more in competition. It's too late for him.

The AID scheme was silly because 3 of the 4 grandparents had to be RID. It was only ever a trickle of blood being let in. The HSI's grade up register will amount to much of the same thing. What's more, under the AID scheme only fillies were allowed be registered so in turn, the amount of blood entering the breed was minimal. Is bone really the be all and end all?

Through this entire thread, I've been very clear on my views on what's required for Ireland to cover the three bases that need to be covered for us to be able to produce horses for every sphere at every level. It's not beyond doing but I'm sick of hearing how the ID x TB cross can cut it in modern day showjumping. They can't. Simple as that. If they could, we wouldn't be where we are. Three of Europe's finest gave a breeding seminar at the RDS and struggled to say complimentary things about our jumpers. They might have used our best in the past but either way, that's the past and we need their best going forward. It's time for us to use the fruits of their labour to upgrade our own. Nobody would bat an eyelid if somebody used a French thoroughbred on a mare so what's wrong with using a French sport horse on one?

The reason I'm so down on some ID breeders is because the night the HSI unveiled the new breeding plan at our regional meeting, the conduct of the ID folk was absolutely appalling. The members of the Irish Draught co-op were there in Athlone that night were particularily disgraceful. I said after that night, I'd have nothing to do with breeders who were stuck in the past. One English woman was in the middle of them that night and told me afterwards that she actually feared for her safety because they were throwing such a strop that the ID was getting a grade system. It was pathetic to witness.

Janet, you've said a lot in your posts here without actually saying anything. It's been all spin. No mention of your view on policy for ID or ISH to create a scenario that will lead to long term competitiveness and economic viability. This whole thread has been about creating a vibrant Sport Horse sector in Ireland. You seem concerned that we'll ignore the leisure market and grass roots. If you took the time to research what I've said here, then you'd see how I gave a robust account of how I feel that sector would still be protected going forward.

This thread has been ruined in my opinion. I'm asking you though to please please say something of substance if you reply again.


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## JanetGeorge (16 September 2010)

Eothain said:



			Janet, you've said a lot in your posts here without actually saying anything. It's been all spin. No mention of your view on policy for ID or ISH to create a scenario that will lead to long term competitiveness and economic viability. This whole thread has been about creating a vibrant Sport Horse sector in Ireland. You seem concerned that we'll ignore the leisure market and grass roots. If you took the time to research what I've said here, then you'd see how I gave a robust account of how I feel that sector would still be protected going forward.

This thread has been ruined in my opinion. I'm asking you though to please please say something of substance if you reply again.
		
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You ARE an arrogant young pup, aren't you!  Thankfully, this is HHO - NOT Eothain's private blog, and your opinion of other people's contribution is yours - and doesn't really matter in the greater scheme of things.  I've read everything you've said here - and I've actually agreed with you on a lot of points.  And I shall continue to post on ANY thread I wish to -even if you don't agree!

Oe point I should make clear - I actually don't CARE how Ireland choses to produce its sport horses.  In fact, if Ireland stops producing the good, 'old-fashioned' Irish Sport Horses based on the IDxTB that will be good news for British breeders - already many of the British buyers who used to source their 'Irish' sport horses in Ireland are now buying them closer to home.

For what it's worth, I think Ireland will struggle to take the Germans, French and Dutch breeders 'on' because they have been doing the job well for a lot of years and have a big head start.  Ireland's strength has always been in the Eventer/hunter type - the TBxID(in varying proportions).  The best were World class eventers, and the rest had good outlets as hunters, show horses, lower level competition horses.  Of course, a lot of Irish breeders didn't help themselves - there are still a LOT of Irish bred horses outon the World stage - with bu**er all breeding recorded to PROVE they're ISH.  If Ireland was credited with just half these horses, you'd be back up the list.  Hell, even when a sire and dam are 'properly' recorded, they aren't always right - a friend bought an Irish-bred 'eligible RID' mare recently - and it fell at the first hurdle when DNA proved it was NOT by the stallion shown on her pssport.  I would suggest that poor breeding practice of this sort is probably more to blame for Ireland's drop on the World Rankings than the poor old Irish Draught is (but he's a useful whipping boy!)




			The AID scheme was silly because 3 of the 4 grandparents had to be RID. It was only ever a trickle of blood being let in. The HSI's grade up register will amount to much of the same thing. What's more, under the AID scheme only fillies were allowed be registered so in turn, the amount of blood entering the breed was minimal. Is bone really the be all and end all?
		
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UM - that's not silly - that's called establishing 'type'.  The Irish Draught is a (more or less) pure breed- a 'foundation' breed.  If you allowed larger infusions of TB you'd have a horse that was indistinguishable from an ISH - and of NO interest to people who like Irish Draughts.  And yes, AID fillies can produce RID daughters - and those RID daughters can produce RID stallions that re 1/8th TB - that's enough!  It was the higher % of TB blood in some ID stallions that led to deterioration in bone - and the shameful ID gradings in Ireland this year!

Put as much TB/WB into the ISH as you want - after all, it's a 'type' rather than a breed.  Would you want Connemara breeders to start introducing large dollops of TB into them - and calling them pure-bred Connemaras??  The TBxConnemara makes a super (smaller) sport horse - but it's NOT a Connemara!




			The reason I'm so down on some ID breeders is because the night the HSI unveiled the new breeding plan at our regional meeting, the conduct of the ID folk was absolutely appalling.
		
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Perhaps that's because the ID breeders in Ireland are sick of HSI's heavy-handed control of the studbook, the gradings,etc etc.  The UK and American ID breeders aren't too impressed either!  It is ridiculous that Irish Draught breeders in the UK and USA (and Australia, New Zealand etc) are being dictated to by an Irish quango whose primary purpose is to put Irish bred SPORT horses onto the World Rankings Tables!

Irish Draught breeders breed Irish Draughts because they LIKE Irish Draughts!  If they WANTED to breed world class competition horses then they'd be breeding Selle Francais, or Holstein, or their own national 'brand' of Warmblood!

Time will tell whether HSI's approach will produce an Irish SH/WB that will match/better the results Ireland had with the ID SH in the past.  And whether it will prove more financially rewarding.  But maybe you'll need to plan on eating the ones who don't make the grade (as happens in many European countries!)  Because I don't think UK buyers will be as quick to buy up your 'also-rans' as they were to buy up the ID sport horses.


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## magic104 (16 September 2010)

Quote "For what it's worth, I think Ireland will struggle to take the Germans, French and Dutch breeders 'on' because they have been doing the job well for a lot of years and have a big head start. Ireland's strength has always been in the Eventer/hunter type - the TBxID(in varying proportions)."  I am confused by this term "always been in the Eventer/hunter type" as Ireland was producing Olympic show jumpers, & was known for producing top quality show jumpers.

I dont see what the problem is here one is trying to produce the top end of the show jumping market, therefore their breeding strategy will differ from those breeding for the lower end of the market.  It is not just Irish breeders who have been appaling at keeping records or even registering their stock, the UK hobby breeders are in the same league.  As has been mentioned in the past competition formats have changed, a horse that might have won round Hickstead maynot get close now.  Because back in the day, cups were deeper, poles heavier, courses not so technical.  If you are loosing market share you dont just carry on regardless, you look at your competitors to see what they are doing differently.


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## Eothain (16 September 2010)

Arrogant? I've never been called that before, though I have been called worse! All I'm trying to do is figure out what exactly you're saying. I see your point about the leisure market but I think you're missing out the point about international success. I'm not trying to argue with you or fall out with you.

As for the ID breeders, well they proved they can't manage the ID studbook without having a silly petty row. The HSI are the only ones fit to look after the studbook.


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## JanetGeorge (16 September 2010)

Eothain said:



			Arrogant? I've never been called that before, though I have been called worse! All I'm trying to do is figure out what exactly you're saying. I see your point about the leisure market but I think you're missing out the point about international success. I'm not trying to argue with you or fall out with you.
		
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What I suppose I'm saying is that not EVERY horse bred can be an International star - and there are a LOT more buyers for nice sensible hunter/all-rounder types than there are for International competition horses.  Ireland DID excel at producing a 'type'  - the I(D)SH - that could go to either end - if it wasn't a top competition prospect it was hardy and sensible enough to be a good hunter/all-rounder/low-level competion horse.  So the BEST youngsters made top money - and the average youngsters still made good money!

The top WB competition types don't ALWAYS breed top WB competition types - the also-rans are often 'wastage' (as in racing!!)  The failed competion horse is often too 'sharp' for the amateur rider (and not many UK foxhunters will TOUCH a WB for hunting.)

If/when Ireland deserts the horse that put them on the map - the I(D)SH - renowned for its toughness, its ability to find a 5th leg across country, and its sensible temperament - do Irish breeders think the Germans/French/Dutch will be racing to buy the 'new' ISH??  Why on earth should they - when that's what they ALREADY have at home, by the tens of thousands.  And even if the market is there for the top 10%, what about the other 90%?




			As for the ID breeders, well they proved they can't manage the ID studbook without having a silly petty row. The HSI are the only ones fit to look after the studbook.
		
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Actually, the Irish ID breeders MIGHT have proved they can't agree - but they've never had control of the stud book.  As for HSI being 'fit' to look after it, that is a moot point!  Most ID breeders around the world would disagree with you - including me!


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## GrassHorse (27 September 2010)

Happy Days!
NLS Cool al Clover by Aldatus Z and Dax van Dabdijhoeve by Desir Du Chateau win the world championship for 6 and 7 year olds at Lanaken.

Both Aldatus Z and Desir Du Chateau stand in Ireland.


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## Eothain (27 September 2010)

You know, I was wondering why my last comment hadn't been replied to, turns out my last reply got chewed up in cyberspace! Hmmm, annoying.

It was a great result for the ISH at Lanaken. NLS Coole Al Clover really pulled that result out of the bag, didn't see it coming! He's a stallion too so he'll surely get an approval now!!!

Ballypatrick Mystique finished 3rd in the 7 year olds was a brilliant result too. It's great that our reigning National 7 Year Old Champion could get a result like that. It goes to show the level of showjumping in Ireland is as good as will be found anywhere. The HSI Showjumping League has done wonders for young horse production.

Also, because of Ballypatrick Mystique, I'm definately using Heritage Fortunus on a mare next year. What a fantastic stallion.

Is the ISH coming back?


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## BallyshanHorses (27 September 2010)

As far as I know Cobra had the winner of the 5yr old consolation class as well so not bad for Irish BASED stallions.


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## wigum (28 September 2010)

BallyshanHorses said:



			As far as I know Cobra had the winner of the 5yr old consolation class as well so not bad for Irish BASED stallions.
		
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Lissava's resident stallions Cobra and Manhattan had good results, i lifted this straight off their facebook page

_Cobra is sire of the winner of the 5 year old consolation class at World Breeding Championships in Lanaken, Belgium, yesterday, and Manhattan sired the 5 year old in 3rd place! Also another Cobra qualified for the 5 year old championship final today and another Manhattan qualified for the 7 year old championship final today!!_


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## Eothain (28 September 2010)

Does this put to rest the old tale about only reject foreign stallions standing in Ireland?


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## GrassHorse (28 September 2010)

Eothain said:



			Is the ISH coming back?
		
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I think so. It great that we can hold our own at such a prestigious event. And it not just a case of one of our horses doing well. The were plenty Irish horses in each final on the sunday. Its welcome news for the industry.


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## wigum (28 September 2010)

Eothain said:



			It was a great result for the ISH at Lanaken. NLS Coole Al Clover really pulled that result out of the bag, didn't see it coming! He's a stallion too so he'll surely get an approval now!!!
		
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I have heard a rumour he was sold shortly after for a nice 6 figure sum. To where I do not know, so he may not ever come back to get approved.


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## Eothain (29 September 2010)

They'll surely approve him for use via AI


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## misspenny (30 September 2010)

I want NLS Coole Al Clover for my mare next year!! I bet he will get lots of mares now that he is world champ!! Do you know his half brother Colonel Clover out of same dam is also a stallion and is competing in the irish army equitation school!!


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## merrypath (30 September 2010)

E. you DO like your blinders don't you. What is done with Irish Draughts has nothing to do with your goals evidently...that is fine. Overt your eyes and don't watch but don't interfer with something you have no regard or interest in...the survival of the Irish Draught foundation. Add your warmbloods and TBs to the Connemaras and ISHs...omit Irish Draughts entirely...please...and essentially breed continental-like warmbloods in Ireland to compete with the top level of showjumping and pretend nothing else matters for the success of commercial breeders in Ireland. Hope that the very very small numbers of top level jumpers produced or even needed will keep all the home breeders afloat.

Ignore that you can't compete with modern day continental warmblood registries without the best level of horse producers, from breeders to young stock developers to mid level trainers to top level trainers to top level competitors unless you also improve...vastly improve...the level of riders and trainers in Ireland. The continental warmblood world no longer needs to come to Ireland for jumper prospects because they have incentives to stay in their own backyard. I am not talking about financial incentives here I am talking about their ease at being able to find competitive prospects without going anywhere. 

Americans still need to import top level competitors because we also have no infrastructure to develop and present home bred horses ready to go in the ring. We are going to continental yards because we can look at more than a handful of horses ready to walk in the ring. They are not looking for prospects to import and develop themselves like they used to...they want horses ready to go, ready to jump...Irish horses are not presented ready to go in the mid to top level of jumping. It has nothing to do with the percentage of Irish Draught or the TB in the Irish Draught...perhaps it might have an edge if the sires are the same sires as are in use in the continent. It has to do with development of trained horse to re-sell. It is no longer enough to have started horses to re-sell...they can get finished horses on the continent. You will be competitive when they can get finished horses in Ireland.

The success of Irish Bred jumpers is pretty good considering the shear numbers of continental warmbloods that are bred to produce the number of jumpers needed. It is probably even better considering how few Irish bred horses receive an opportunity to be trained to top levels of jumping. 

The world wants horses over the age of 4 years, well started, great temperaments, who jump safely and in good form, who are able to compete at some level...not necessarily the top level. The most successful repeat sales will be potential all purpose horses who have good gaits for dressage, a great gallop for eventing, a cheerful enthusiastic jump, and are easy to live with. None of the precludes them not also being top level jumpers...the fact of them being able to accomodate different levels of riders was the hallmark of the Irish Sport Horse...personally I think that was because of the Irish Draught horse but you can cross what you like to make that horse as it is your choice. I will concentrate of producing an athletic Irish Draught should you choose to include the Irish Draught in your crossbreeding...please dont get in my way as we have enough obsacles in Ireland. PatO


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## misspenny (1 October 2010)

My Pleasure Pat, Great novel you wrote...tell us more about your successful breeding!!


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## Eothain (2 October 2010)

Ok, it's late I'm tired, I've read what your post a few times there and I'll get back with a proper argument again some time, just for the moment though, are you honestly telling me that we should just accept our lot and roll over and die? Just take our reputation and be happy with it? Continue to breed the happy hacker, bread and butter type family friends that everybody loves and adores that'll do everything that asked of it happily or should we do all that _and_ try to provide horses for the kids coming off ponies who are looking for competitive horses to compete in big young rider classes? Should we not also attempt to have twenty horses in the top 200 like we had in 1992 instead of being happy with the 4 we have in it in 2010? Should we not also try to regain our position in the WBFSH studbook rankings? Should we not accept that our horses have weakpoints that we need to needle them out that prevent more of them from reaching the upper echelons of equestrian sport and accept that the ends justify the means?

How many ISHs are competing in the Showjumping section of the WEG? I can't find a list of horse and rider entries anywhere unfortunately. There's a considerable number competing in the Eventing section but for one reason or the other it's not as big a number as I would like to see. I'm quite sure it's less than the 18 that competed in the Olympics in 2008, I do hope I'm wrong though.

It has been my experience from stories I've heard that people will travel anywhere to find a horse that will compete at the level they want. I'd imagine, but maybe I'm wrong, that riders don't care if the horse they're sat on is by Cruising or Cumano or Cavalier once it does it's job. At the end of the day, not all well bred horses are superstars but all superstars are well bred. What does it matter if a horse that's out competing internationally representing the Irish Sport Horse stud book, is by Heritage Fortunus the Hannovarian stallion out of a mare by Cavalier Royale the Holsteiner? The end goal is to get buyers in here to buy our nice young horses which are ready to go on and compete. Big international championships like Lanaken, WEG, the Europeans and Olympics are our shop window. Buyers will travel to the countries which are well represented at these tournaments.

I guarantee you, that if we were able to provide horses for the retiring pony riders that could compete in the Chippison Spring Tour or any of those highly competitive young rider classes throughout the country then we, as a nation, would have a much larger pool of buyers every year from among ourselves. We need to stem the flow of money to other countries in Europe for horses to compete in classes between 1.10 and 1.40. We need that money to stay in Ireland and create an industry that will be economically viable and have money coming in from foreign buyers for our top end horses that will trickle down the levels and continually boost the Sector.

Absolutely you are correct that every body from the producers to breeders to pinhookers to trainers in Ireland need to up their game. There's an industry in Ireland that could be wonderful, one of the best in the world perhaps. We've the world's best thoroughbred industry, there's nothing except our own self depreciation and the shackles of tradition stopping us from having a Sport Horse sector that is every bit as good.

I feel like I'm going round in circles here and dancing with a new partner on every circle and being made to look like the bad guy when there is no bad guy here, just a frustration that no body screamed enough during our freefall in the 90s.

Without Cruising, who was indeed a traditionally bred ISH, we'd be in a far worse predicament than we are in terms of international performance. When our horse's were failing, he was the one who pulled us back up again. Hell, in the 2010 rankings the top 3 Irish Sport Horses have his blood. Flexible #25 and Mo Chroi #169 are by him and Fresh Direct Kalico Bay #120 (Who for some reason isn't listed an ISH) is out of a mare by him. Dorada #175 is by the SF stallion Harlequin Du Carel out of a Clover Hill dam.

It's also worth noting that for the first time since the WBFSH rankings began, that the ISH has not been #1 for Eventing. In 2010, we finish #2! Or as I like to refer to it when I finish second in a competition, first of the losers. Yay!

I agree though that horses in Ireland need to be prroduced better and be further along their career when they're presented for sale and they need to be produced in a cost effective way leading to cheaper horses for the buyer so they're not getting screwed. I'll be the first to hold my hands up and say that as a producer, I need to go away somewhere and improve myself so I can do a better job.

I'm not trying to slate Irish Draughts. I wish to state that for the record! I am not trying to run down the wonderful Irish Draught horse but I do think we've seen it's glory days come and go as a producer of top class athletes. I do know one thing for sure, if I was going out in the morning looking for a horse capable of keeping me safe and sound as a riding horse that would also travel anywhere out hunting then I'd search for a horse to be by an Irish Draught and out of a 1/2 bred or 3/4 Bred mare. From my own experiences, there's nothing better at going across the country behind a pack of hounds or in cross country competition or for people I teach who do Riding Club activities than a horse like that. It's just the right balance of common sense, blood, stamina and hardiness to do all that is asked of it.

I would also like to state, that it is my belief that if everybody tries to stop breeding those all rounders like what I've just described and focus on only breeding top level showjumpers or eventers, it'd be a huge mistake. I've no interest in breeding that type of horse but I believe it's extremely important that somebody breeds it because they're an integral part of the industry but are not horses which will commonly be seen in the future in big Grand Prix classes or Nations Cups.

I'm not the bad guy here, just trying to be open, maybe too open, in a forum where people can agree or disagree with my opinions, thoughts and beliefs. Breeding and showjumping are my life, my future, my passion, my hobby and my vocation. It's all I know or care about, that's why I give a damn about the future of breeding in Ireland. If I didn't think we as a country could punch above our weight once more and get back where we were before then I'd simply shut my big mouth, stop giving my opinion and just go and do my own thing.

*I am NOT trying to belittle the Irish Draught horse*

I apologise if any of that was incoherent or if it didn't make sense, but I'm fighting to keep my eyes open here. I had planned on stopping after the first paragraph ... ... ..!


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## Eothain (2 October 2010)

Actually, before I forget, on those WBFSH rankings, World Cruise who is 6th highest ISH on the list of ISHs, is also a Cruising product! He's ranked at #399. On the Eventing side of things, #20 Ashdale Cruise Master and #52 Mr Cruise Control are also Cruising progeny. Making Cruising, the only Irish stallion to have 2 horses in the top 6 ISH on the list. Not a bad record eh?

Also, for you AES fans, #126 on the jumping rankings, Billy Congo is listed as having no studbook, sire or dam recorded meaning the AES didn't get any ranking points for him. Not good enough on the WBFSH behalf. Infact, for 2010 Billy Congo ties at #126 with Cornet Obolensky. That's a pretty impressive horse to be tied with!!!

Had the AES been able to count Billy Congo's points, the studbook would have ranked #23 and not #25 for showjumping.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (2 October 2010)

Eothain,

That was an excellent post. 

Terri


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## Eothain (3 October 2010)

Thanks. I'm just calling it like I see it. Maybe I shouldn't, I dont know.

On the subject of the AES studbook ranking, it seems I too made a mistake. I overlooked Ireland's WEG competitor, Tinka's Serenade!

She's ranked #28 in the world for 2010 with 925 points. Billy Congo got 520 points. #410 Dylano got 223 points. #893 Rimini 01 got 100 points. Cotton Candy T, ranked #2092 got 25 points and Luikka #2588 got 14 points. Bringing the correct AES total to 1807 points. This infact lifts the AES from #25 in the studbook rankings to #14 ahead of the Danish Warmblood.

If there's anybody here reading this, who knows how to contact the AES office, if I were you, I'd certainly be getting on to the WBFSH to correct their mistake. There's no point in being ranked nine places below where you should be!!!

Even if the ISH counted the 525 points of Fresh Direct Kalico Bay and dropped the 219 points of Irish Independent Echo Beach, it still wouldn't affect our placing. We'd still be ranked 9th in the world. Good to be back in the top ten though, long may it last!!!


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## magic104 (3 October 2010)

Quote "Thanks. I'm just calling it like I see it. Maybe I shouldn't, I dont know"  - Too right you should, this is an open forum.  Your comments are not rude, I am sure I am not the only one interested in your views, in fact I know Im not.


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## brianreid (5 October 2010)

we have always had the mare now we have stallions, look at the recent win at the wbc with an ish horse. Even though he was by a wb he still came first. This was the 1st time in 18 year and irish horse won so Irish mares crosses with wb must be doing something right. The main problem is that as a nation we dont push our horses enough in the right direction.  We push them in hunting, and hacking but when it comes to showjumping we are very slow to enter a young horse in to the height they should be jumping..


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## coolycasey (6 October 2010)

Brian,

what height should our young horses be jumping and should they be going against the clock as 4yo and 5yo or should they be judged by competant judges on their ability without the speed? I feel that too much is being asked of imature horses in Ireland (3,4,and possibly 5yo) without them being allowed the chance to mature sufficently to enable their ability to be recognised and appreciated by the market in general. no 4yo horse should have anything to prove against the clock, time clases should have no bearing in a horses future career as a 4yo. just my thoughts for what its worth.


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## brianreid (6 October 2010)

i feel that young horses should be given the chance to mature into there own frame. Look at lissava stud with the stallion contador they did very littles shows with him as a 4 year old due to his size, They did not ask the q's until he was readi. I believe that the young horses in ireland should be judged on there protenial to become high class preformance horse and judge on ability not hight. I believe at for certain class we need judge who understand the grading of young horses. To many irish judge base a lot on results. But pretty dont won.


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## Irishlife (7 October 2010)

Agree with you Brian, our more mature sorts our typical half bred hunters are well able to hunt a few half days at 3 and ride on at 4. The rest with a bit more blood take longer I find with mine that are usually 7/8 or 3/4 TB with a dollop of warmblood and ID don't grow into themselves until five or six so any going jumping will do "little league" 90's and 1m in the winter of their 4th year plus hunter trials. The more mature four yo's do hunter classes in the summer for education.

Those four year olds jumping in the qualifiers are judged on style, scope, approach, technique and not speed. Fastest way to blow up a four year old is to ride him when he is not mature or balanced/schooled enough too fast and ask too many questions that they don't have the answers to.

I saw some shocking shameful rides in the 4yo qualifiers this year. A lot of riders could use 6 months decent flatwork and develop their own skills. ON the other side of the coin, there were others who were a pleasure to watch.

As I have said and many others have said, there is no point producing horses of impeccable breeding, scope and talent if there is nobody able to produce them correctly and develop them with discipline, accuracy and time. There are many brilliant nagsmen that can hunt any kind of horse around a course four weeks after breaking but this raw (and sometimes damaged) horse is not what the market wants or needs.

The problem with producing a correct well schooled horse is the time it takes but I do think the rewards are there when it is done well. I know from experience this is so but at the same time you have to hold your nerve as there is way more stacked against you than someone turning a horse around quick. If a horse does a leg - game over. However, the right quality horse with the right early education will always sell at the right money.

We will never be as disciplined as the continentals, that is not in our nature and there is still way too much uneducated horse training here such as "making the mouth" which can be standing for a couple of hours in a stable with a bit and side reins on to being turned out in a field with a bit in for a couple of weeks.  

Swings and roundabouts, we need to up our game producing definitely but that will require a shift in thinking from turning horses over quickly and getting them riding in time for Goresbridge to looking at the longer term.

Will it happen - unlikely.


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## Alec Swan (7 October 2010)

Irishlife,

what a thought provoking post.

Alec.


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## gadetra (8 October 2010)

Wow . Buliadh bós mhór to Eothain and Irishlife. Ye are dead right. 
Irishlife I think we definately have the riding talent-but as you say the disipline is missing.
Eothain I think you have every right to air your opinions as this is what a forum is for. And I am not alone in finding them interesting!!


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## Equilibrium Ireland (11 October 2010)

It's like anything really some horses can handle being 4yo jumpers and some cannot. And yes, really important to have a good jockey on board who can actually produce a young horse without ruining them. I only just sent my 4yo away last month for show jumping training. I broke her at 2 and spent 6 weeks with her and ending with my walking around on the lead on her back. I weight 100pds so I'm pretty sure she wasn't harmed. Brought her back at 3 and spent the summer with her then off again. This year she got started late as I was moving, blah, blah blah, but really she wasn't mature enough mentally to handle what she is capable of handling now. I wanted her to be more forward and jumping classes this year, but it wasn't to be.

I have also found an amazing trainer/rider who brings horses along the right way. And being how she's out of a TB mare and not everyone's cup of tea, I know I found the right person for her. Plus he is close by so I can visit often. My mare is by Tadmus just in case anyone is interested.

Terri


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## Alec Swan (11 October 2010)

E_I,

for many years I earned a living with gundogs.  The temptation to push the most promising,  and forward was always there,  and I learnt from my mistakes.  They say with dogs,  that it takes months to make,  and minutes to ruin,  and I suspect,  that this is broadly true with young equines.

The need to earn a living,  is a yoke which most of wear,  sadly.  Perhaps those horses which appear to mature physically,  and at an early age,  have too much asked of them,  and the fortunate ones,  those which are late to mature,  from a mental viewpoint,  are the most fortunate.  They may be given the one thing which most of us lack, time.  Don't know!!  Just a thought.

Alec.


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## magic104 (11 October 2010)

Im not a fan of starting them at 2yrs, no matter how big.  Thats not to say I would not lean across, or even long rein, but I would not ride them at all.  I dont believe in working them in circles at that age either.  When I was younger it was impressed on me that hopefully a horse should have a long working life, why start it at 2yrs.  All the horses that passed through them were worked at the animals pace.  I suppose though that some producers are not interested in the later life of an animal, there not the ones paying the bills.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (11 October 2010)

Well I can assure you she was not traumatised by my starting her early nor does she have any joint issues. Everything has been done at a pace she can handle. Everyone has a different opinion. Started hundreds of horses and by far the worst were the "well handled" 4 yo's. Meaning spoiled rotten pookie who does what he wants but leads and stands for farrier. Zilch work ethic and have the hardest time learning. The words in work can mean many different things. Moderation and listening to the horse means you shouldn't have problems. If you go to YouTube and type in breathtaking by tadmus you will see she was not a scrawny 2 yo.


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## magic104 (11 October 2010)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			Well I can assure you she was not traumatised by my starting her early nor does she have any joint issues. Everything has been done at a pace she can handle. Everyone has a different opinion. Started hundreds of horses and by far the worst were the "well handled" 4 yo's. Meaning spoiled rotten pookie who does what he wants but leads and stands for farrier. Zilch work ethic and have the hardest time learning. The words in work can mean many different things. Moderation and listening to the horse means you shouldn't have problems. If you go to YouTube and type in breathtaking by tadmus you will see she was not a scrawny 2 yo.
		
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My concern is that a lot of people who may not have your experience & may not actually listen to their horses, will think it ok to start 2yo's.  There are a lot of people out there that think they have what it takes to start a youngster & dont spend money on a professsional.  All they see is posts from people saying it is ok & does them no harm.  TBH how does anyone really know, because just how many horses stay with their starter right through their lives.  How many people start their youngsters, sell them on, loose touch & therefore have no idea what sort of problems they encounter?  We can only be guided by those that have done studies on subjects like growth plates & horse development.  Im sorry that my views upset a lot of trainers who start 2yos, but the majority of the time it comes down to money.  I already posted about the Brightwell sales & what the 3yos were doing.  I was not the only one who felt perhaps I was giving my youngster too much time.  But then I look at him & previous photos & no, he was still growing into himself & there is no way he could of balanced himself correctly with a rider at 2yrs.  Many horses have been started at 2, for years now, I really dont think this is going to change.  I was just voicing my feeling on the subject.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (11 October 2010)

Magic,

Not jumping on you at all, just trying to say that if you take your time it can be done right, and then again all horses aren't suited to start at 2 either. Just so dependant on many different factors. Abba's brother for instance, I didn't start til he was 3 but he was a completely different horse. Abba kind of needed some different perspectives on life to keep her mind occupied!


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## merrypath (12 October 2010)

When we look at the continental warmblood model there are several elements that make them successful. There is often a lot of seperation between the mare they wish to breed and the horse jumping at top level. Each level has opportunities for market success. There is an industry producing stallions. The farmers keeping the mares...selling the foals while still young...a young horses producer who keeps them to the next market level when they are ready to be backed or selling just after they are backed...then the better horses are bought by those who develop talent...then they are sold to their primary competition home. Each of these levels is well respected and well known. You can go and see many horses at the level you are looking to fill with young stock. 

In days past the Irish sent their horses to the sales or fairs and they were bought by the dealers in other countries. Their papers disappeared...their heritage was lost...the credit to the breeders gone. No one could go back to the breeder and look for a brother to the horse that impressed so much.

You need to build the infrastructure. Now Ireland is cut off from the middle market. American buying trips go to large yards in Germany and with the Dutch and they see many horses of the type they want. Germans and the Dutch now know very well what the American hunter buyers want...even if they don't like it a top horse brings too much money to ignore. Americans don't like auctions. The Irish have a country the size of West Virginia and it should be a piece of cake to hit several big yards but the Irish think 60 miles is like going across an ocean. Americans haven't even gotten to the other side of town in 60 miles. Build the infrastructure...it makes jobs...educates young riders...prepares them for the upper levels competing on the Irish horses they brought along. PatO


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## GrassHorse (12 October 2010)

merrypath said:



			In days past the Irish sent their horses to the sales or fairs and they were bought by the dealers in other countries. Their papers disappeared...their heritage was lost...the credit to the breeders gone. No one could go back to the breeder and look for a brother to the horse that impressed so much.

 PatO
		
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This was a big problem. Alot of the european dealers who were buying in Ireland and selling them abroad did not pass on the papers/passport. I know of one very famous swiss buyer who was adament that no one in Switzerland would know where the horses he sourced came from, he would not dare give over breeder details.

Alot of Irish breeders have no idea about how well related their mares are. This will change in time. I think the new database www.horseandbreeder.com will help change this.


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## corinnehyde (21 December 2010)

Hiya,

I'm very interested reading those posts.  

I have a 2001 mare out of Trump Carder.  Shes a great 1.30m horse and super against the clock.  I would love to hear anymore information about Trump Carder.


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## magic104 (22 December 2010)

Hi, have you seen this link?
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?z=ADslpb&d=Trump+Carder&x=14&y=14


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## AdAblurr (23 December 2010)

GrassHorse said:



			<SNIP>

Alot of Irish breeders have no idea about how well related their mares are. This will change in time. I think the new database www.horseandbreeder.com will help change this.
		
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Went to link. Typed "Touch of the Blues" into the search box and hit enter.
Got two returns, oddly. One's a gelding by a warmblood named Touchdown. The other purports to be THE Touch of the Blues RID. Data is woefully incomplete, on an arguably very famous representative of his breed. It appears that this is a database in need of a LOT of input before it's worth anything - http://www.sporthorse-data.com is a better source of info, IMHO.


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## seabsicuit2 (23 December 2010)

corinnehyde said:



			Hiya,

I'm very interested reading those posts.  

I have a 2001 mare out of Trump Carder.  Shes a great 1.30m horse and super against the clock.  I would love to hear anymore information about Trump Carder.
		
Click to expand...

She must be super!! They say that Trump Carder is one of the best broodmares in Ireland& from the best motherline there is. TC has produced multiple Grade A sj Stallions with a range of different sires- the full range is not shown on the sporthorse database.

I think you have quite a valuable broodmare there! If you wanted more info ring Carmel Ryan/ Paeder Muller

Someone one here has a Trump carder stallion son, Grade A- their user name escapes me tho!

This is a link to another Trump Carder son-
http://www.breenequestrian.com/Images/services/Royal-Concorde-Stud-Card.pdf


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## magic104 (23 December 2010)

corinnehyde said:



			Hiya,

I'm very interested reading those posts.  

I have a 2001 mare out of Trump Carder.  Shes a great 1.30m horse and super against the clock.  I would love to hear anymore information about Trump Carder.
		
Click to expand...

Hi, have you seen this link?
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?z=A...rder&x=14&y=14


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## Eothain (23 December 2010)

Trump Carder has a daughter by Olympic Lux who is annoying fast against the clock ...


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## wigum (4 January 2011)

Just read an interesting article:

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/recipe-top-event-horse-calls-brain-brawn-beauty-and-breeding

Master Imp may yet have a stallion son worth noticing. Full brother to Mandiba and High Kingdom. Out of a sucessful mare high dolly. The injury will probably make him orange on the HSI traffic light system but the best bred son of master imp that I am aware of.

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?0=dummy&i=10511200&ad_session=5nZQfb


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## firm (6 January 2011)

Trump Carder's dam who was very good, goes back to the TB Seven Bells as does the dam of Jumbo but I don't think I have ever seen anything written about Seven Bells?  It is a bit historical but would love to know about him.


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## tristar (6 January 2011)

i remember seven bells, many years ago sire of hunters, eventers.
loved the irish horse river foyle when i saw him compete, how is he bred? 
watched a dvd of cento competeing last night, he jumps with the enthuisiasm and agility of a pony!
saw son of chambertin, chacco blue at stallion demo very impressive, but then so was the rider, alois pollman. both are of the op's list of stallions.


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## wigum (6 January 2011)

tristar said:



			loved the irish horse river foyle when i saw him compete, how is he bred?
		
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River Foyle is by Cavalier and out of a mare by Cruising. His half brother Lough Foyle is also jumping with the army and he is by Touchdown.


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## tristar (6 January 2011)

thank you!


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## wigum (7 January 2011)

Carmena Z is now being offered by Zangersheide stud in 2011. That is a great compliment to the Ryans. Congratulations to them, I hope he goes on to be a top stallion aswell as a top horse.

http://www.zangersheide.com/en/


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## no_no_nanette (7 January 2011)

wigum said:



			Carmena Z is now being offered by Zangersheide stud in 2011. That is a great compliment to the Ryans. Congratulations to them, I hope he goes on to be a top stallion aswell as a top horse.

http://www.zangersheide.com/en/

Click to expand...

They have been such an incredibly positive influence on the breeding of ISH over a long period of time - I love Royal Concorde, who's standing at Cullintra with Peadar Murphy this year; another one of the Ryans, I think?


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## gadetra (19 January 2011)

Just thought I'd add something along the lines of what this thread was originally about-foreign stallions yeahie or nay.. This is a quote from Nicholas O hare on the subject of foreign stallions in the ISH studbook from his book on Clover Hill. I think it sums things up rather nicely:
   "The arguments about foreign stallions are a distraction [From why Ireland has slid down the WSBH showjumping rankings]. They are here and we shall have to accept the fact. However, while traditionalists might decry the influx we must take stock of the good points. The good foreignsires have done well by their supporters. There have been showring winners bred from Irish mares, there are foreign sires in teh mares selected for teh Premier Mare scheme, there have been quality foals and performance foals notably by Cavalier Royale which have gone out and battled for Irelnad in the showjumping  arenas of the world. No, the foreign sire is not all bad, but it would have been nice to have done without him"
Very eloquently put and a realistic view on the debate I think!


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## Irishlife (19 January 2011)

Well Amen to that!!!

Very succinct and I guess pretty much how many Irish Breeders feel. I must say I am extremely grateful for the dash of Furisto in my mares who has put the spring in a lot of my youngsters and very much looking forward to seeing how my Lux Z out of a Master Imp dam performs this year.


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## Eothain (20 January 2011)

I think that sums it up nicely!


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## firm (20 January 2011)

I think it does too!  LOL Does that mean after 78 pages Gadetra has put it in one post?


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## Maesfen (20 January 2011)

firm said:



			I think it does too!  LOL Does that mean after 78 pages Gadetra has put it in one post?
		
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Ah but look at the fun and information we would have missed.  Even now, this is still one of my favourite threads.

Change your options, mine is only 20 pages long, much more manageable.


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## firm (20 January 2011)

Thanks for the tip - off to my options now.
I agree it is a great thread and I love reading all the info - thank you everyone


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## Alec Swan (23 February 2012)

Timothy,

brace yourself,  there's a rocket en route to you,  I suspect!! 

Alec.


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## Eothain (23 February 2012)

Oh god. Will this never die? I had a quick read back through some of my posts there. Did you know that I came across like an ignorant, angry young fella! Oops ... Sorry about that!! To think, this all started with a bit of gentle banter between myself and a friend who was trying to wind me up!!!!!!!

I see Tim's post has been deleted. Button pushers at work?


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## Simsar (24 February 2012)

Ignorant........... no, ill informed.............. yes 

I quite often come back to this post and mill over the musings. It's about the only sensible thing written here now!!!


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## Eothain (24 February 2012)

Ill informed ... Pfffff!! And you living next door to the delightful Billy Congo but not using him ............


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## Simsar (25 February 2012)

Actually we have one in foal to him for this year, keep that under your hat though and don't tell anyone else from this thread!! 

Here is the test mating, hopefully should have a jump 
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/dbtestmating.php?&sireid=10440141&damid=10621508


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## GinnieRedwings (25 February 2012)

Oh dear... and it's not even going to be grey... will you cope with the novelty of it all?


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## Tall Tree (13 March 2012)

I have started reading this Happy Days for ISH breeders and have found it really interesting. I agree wholeheartedly with alot of what has been said.

I have a 4 year old mare, 16.1, by Galloway, 17. and out of a Ballinvella mare, 17.1 and I am going to breed her to an outstanding Arabian stallion Zygmunt. He is 15.3 a beautiful head and a 12 step which he has given to all of his progeny, 2 foals out of draft mares are beautiful, he has good bone and a lovely temperment. He has two young ones started jumping and they seem to like it, time will tell. I like Galloway very much and my Ballinvella mare is the best.  I think the four year old is an example of a mare with good breeding getting a chance to have a spectacular foal. I will let you all know next year how it worked out. "Nothing ventured, nothing gained". 
Wish me luck.


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## magic104 (13 March 2012)

Tall Tree said:



			I have started reading this Happy Days for ISH breeders and have found it really interesting. I agree wholeheartedly with alot of what has been said.

I have a 4 year old mare, 16.1, by Galloway, 17. and out of a Ballinvella mare, 17.1 and I am going to breed her to an outstanding Arabian stallion Zygmunt. He is 15.3 a beautiful head and a 12 step which he has given to all of his progeny, 2 foals out of draft mares are beautiful, he has good bone and a lovely temperment. He has two young ones started jumping and they seem to like it, time will tell. I like Galloway very much and my Ballinvella mare is the best.  I think the four year old is an example of a mare with good breeding getting a chance to have a spectacular foal. I will let you all know next year how it worked out. "Nothing ventured, nothing gained". 
Wish me luck.
		
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I like the Polish arabs I am sure it will be lovely, good luck & remember to post the photos


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## Maesfen (13 March 2012)

This thread is well worth reading again, I had forgotten how good it was so thank you for reminding me.


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## tristar (13 March 2012)

hello mayo, how is the stallion zygmunt bred? i am breeding part arabs and would be interested in any photos if poss,  thanks


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## magic104 (13 March 2012)

tristar said:



			hello mayo, how is the stallion zygmunt bred? i am breeding part arabs and would be interested in any photos if poss,  thanks
		
Click to expand...

Does this help?
http://sporthorse-data.com/d?z=OgQaiJ&d=zygmunt&x=33&y=14


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## tristar (13 March 2012)

thank you magic, and congratulations on the new foal, and best of luck with him for the future.


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## gadetra (18 March 2012)

They should make this thread a pamphlet we can order and flick through at will. I'd totally buy it. Oh there could be pics of all the stallions mentioned and an appendix of all the mentioned equidae's 3 gen breeding.
I can dream!
 Plus it'd make re reading it so much easier than on snail-y midlands broadband!


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## 101doris (19 March 2012)

loving the discussion! not sure which side of the fence i'm on but looking to bred from my ISH mare this year.


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## Eothain (19 March 2012)

Wow ... this thing just won't die!!!


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## Eothain (19 March 2012)

Here's a quick question for those of you that have been following this post from it's beginnings. 

Has anyone had any changes in heart or opinions since this thread started?


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## Alec Swan (19 March 2012)

This thread,  amongst others,  has called into question many of the precepts which affect the market for the horses which we breed,  and if not others then certainly I have followed it,  with zeal.   

Changes of heart or opinion?  I'm not sure.  I'm rarely certain of anything,  but much which I've read on this wonderful thread,  has either reinforced,  or conversely,  made me question my beliefs.

We tend to loose sight of the fact that this thread started with a particular reference to Irish Breeders,  and there are those,  I suspect who feel that traditional Irish methods have stood their breeders in good stead,  previously,  and then those who feel that Irish breeding has perhaps stagnated,  or at the very least ceased to evolve,  and now is,  or is at risk,  of being left behind on the world wide stage.

I must admit that I wonder where the next Master Imps,  the Clover Hills and the Cruisings are to be found,  or are they all ready out there?

Alec.


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## Eothain (19 March 2012)

A fair question Alec. The honest answer is I'm not sure who those good young fully Irish stallions are! 

You have the likes of Oldtown KC for sure but in reality how many mares that are fully Irish can he expect to cover? He's by Cruising, out of a mare who's a top preformer in her own right but she's by a son of Clover Hill and she's out of a Ballinvella mare!!! Realistically, the largest part of the traditional mare herd will have those genes anyway.

If nothing else, we need the influence of past stallions like Cavalier and Furisto or current ones like Lux and his many continental immigrant amigos for a bit of hybrid vigour and expansion of the gene pool.

My opinions have changed slightly in one respect. While at the beginning, I was making a list of the superstar continental based stallions I wanted to use, I've decided against that. When I look at the list of approved foreign stallions in this country, I think it's a roster of horses that any country would be proud to have so I plan to support Irish stud owners and use the best of what's available here. If nothing else, it'll help with the protection of jobs. I can't do much for our struggling economy but I can spend what money I have at home. I believe the political jargon for it is that it's the power of one!


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## Maesfen (19 March 2012)

Eothain said:



			My opinions have changed slightly in one respect. While at the beginning, I was making a list of the superstar continental based stallions I wanted to use, I've decided against that. When I look at the list of approved foreign stallions in this country, I think it's a roster of horses that any country would be proud to have so I plan to support Irish stud owners and use the best of what's available here. If nothing else, it'll help with the protection of jobs. I can't do much for our struggling economy but I can spend what money I have at home. I believe the political jargon for it is that it's the power of one!
		
Click to expand...

That's interesting Conor; it would be a nice idea if some in this country were as responsible.  We do have the horses in this country, it's a shame they don't utilize them without spending their money abroad.


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## gadetra (21 March 2012)

Hmnmmm well changes of heart I don't know. 
My heart says breen Irish all the way but my head says go Continental. This year I'm having a traditionally bred foal, by a TB sire out of a TB/RID mare and looking at the sale prices of Tb sired ISH foals, I don't think I can justify this strategy at the moment. They make by far the least overall. Continentally (sp?) sired ISH foals are making the most overall and as I breed to sell this is the way I feel have to go. This is a real real shame as my mares' bloodlines are top class and she is well related eventing wise but this will probably be her only eventing bred foal. How many other good eventing type mares are gone the same way?
So all in all I would say I've had a change of head as opposed to heart!


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## tristar (21 March 2012)

i always follow the heart.

i would always buy or breed from an irish horse in preference to continental and follow it through to ridden, but then i never breed to sell!


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## Tall Tree (22 March 2012)

Actually there is a picture of him on our facebook page, Erris Equine Group, It's a public page ... You might have to scroll down a bit..Also he will be in the Stallion Parade at Cavan tomorrow Thursday 22nd of March starts at 6:00pm. He is by Ganges and out of Zuzanna by Wilejka... He is lovely and the very best temperment. Also at www.bordwinarabianfarm.com


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## Tall Tree (22 March 2012)

I wish they H&H would print this out too I would certainly buy it and so would everyone who has been following this thread.


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## Tall Tree (22 March 2012)

I hope it doesn't die and again I hope they print it!!!! My Ballinvella mare is fab and I love her Galloway foals. He puts a good head, nice temperment, and he, so far, has shortened up their backs, and put a lovely step on my babies. They are very smart.... !!! My mare has a longish back which means she has room for her massive foals.
So far I am very pleased with them and so is my vet!


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## Simsar (22 March 2012)

No change here! I still feel that the continentals should remain just that and that the ISH should also remain bred true! Although a few of the contintentals have snuck there way into our breeding program they are very much a seperate operation and are bred to be sold.


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## Maesfen (22 March 2012)

Tall Tree said:



			I wish they H&H would print this out too I would certainly buy it and so would everyone who has been following this thread.

Click to expand...

I printed it out for myself but there's been more added to it and can't find it now!


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## Equilibrium Ireland (23 March 2012)

I agree with Eothain, too many nice stallions in this country no matter what you want to breed to spend my money elsewhere. So I will keep supporting the Irish stud owners as well.

Terri


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## brownswiss (31 March 2012)

Any info on zambesi will be appreciated...... semen quality? Does he breed small or big... He was recommended for my mare. She is only about 160 cm


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## shugmx (24 September 2015)

5.5 years after this thread got started and i love it would love to hear some conclusions and how some breeding programs have gone. Have opinions changed?  I my self have wb x irish and love them.


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