# If I were to consider breeding a foal



## LadyGascoyne (31 March 2022)

Mim’s breeder came over today and we got talking about my plans for Mim. Naturally, the ‘would you consider breeding from her’ question came up. 

I wouldn’t risk Mim but her breeder suggested that she has a nice embryo transfer mare which we could use. 

So that got me thinking, if I were ever to breed from her (and I’m not decided on that yet for lots of reasons), how would I go about selecting a stallion for her?

I would want to improve her shoulder and add more length of rein, and I’d want something a little less short-coupled. I’d want to add height but not much - she’s just about 15hh and I’d want 15.2/3hh - but without going lighter in type. I like her toughness and she’s incredibly sound and strong for a little Araby horse. I’d want to retain as much fineness in the head as possible without the rest of the horse becoming to flimsy. I don’t want anything hairy or too heavy. 

Temperament is key - Mim is intelligent and feisty but never unsafe, and clever enough to get us out of trouble. She’s loyal and brave, and I like those qualities.

The foal should grow up to be a nice hack/ general all-rounder who is able to do some dressage but it doesn’t need to be a world beater. I don’t need to add expressive paces or fabulous extension - I prefer straight, sound and boring to fancy movement.

I’d wish for a chestnut foal but any solid colour is good - no greys or double dilutes. Mim is palomino, out of a chestnut tobiano, by a cremello stallion. 










And I’m only musing - not throwing a baby shower yet!


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## twiggy2 (1 April 2022)

Mim is so pretty but your wanting to change quite a lot in the foal and there are so many variables that the chances are the foal could be way off the mark for what you are wanting.
I have worked for many people over the years who have tried to breed the foal of their dreams, some of them have done huge mounts of research into all aspects of getting the ideal foal, some have tried more than once and honestly non of them have resulted jn the ideal foal and those that have been kept have not been ridden by the breeder for any length of time due to either being, too small, too sharp or too much horse.
One lady who I worked for for a few years tried three times and ended up with brood mares on loan who had a history of throwing a certain type and produced something very different for her.
She had a lovely Welsh D mare from old fashioned lines, she research and could find nothing over 14.3 ever produced in those lines, she used a very well known coloured stallion who again never sired anything over 15hh and he had been used over mares upto 16.2hh. The foal ended up at 17.2, she was stunning and gnatastic temperament but far too big for the breeder.
For me embryo transfer is messing too much with nature too but that's my personal thoughts and each to their own on that.
Personally I wouldn't do it.


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## Clodagh (1 April 2022)

I agree with Twiggy. Just buy one!


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## blodwyn1 (1 April 2022)

I bred a foal from my first pony , she turned out way too much for me and was what I needed as a teenager. She also did not have a great temperament. I felt responsible for breeding her and kept her till she was nine but eventually had to sell her. She would be 32 now and I still worry about what happened to her.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (1 April 2022)

I've bred a good number in the past, only 1 turned out exactly as I ordered having thrown back 2 generations to one side,  tho the others were pretty good as things went. Such a lottery...
I completely agree with twiggy2 x


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## Meowy Catkin (1 April 2022)

Do you know Mim's status for all the genetic issues that Arabs (and their part breds) can have? LFS, CA etc... If she's a carrier for any of those then you would need to make sure that the stallion is negative. I would only want an Arab for her. Pick a chestnut and then you'll either have a chestnut or palomino foal.

I didn't breed from my chestnut mare and now really regret it as she's too old now.


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## TheMule (1 April 2022)

I agree with the above that your wish list is quite specific and would probably make me buy rather than breed.

I have bred one that is my absolute dream horse but all the others have either died or turned out unsuitable for one reason or another and, TBH, if he had come out exactly like his mother I would have been delighted. Yes, I am breeding another, but it's an addiction I haven’t found a cure for yet and there's no point dieing with all your money in the bank account, is there?! 🤪


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## I'm Dun (1 April 2022)

If you are wanting to breed and foal down yourself then go for it. If you are planning on breeding and having someone else foal down then buy a foal. Theres something very special about a homebred, but much less so if the home bred is actually bred and raised elsewhere IYSWIM?


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## Pinkvboots (1 April 2022)

Meowy Catkin said:



			Do you know Mim's status for all the genetic issues that Arabs (and their part breds) can have? LFS, CA etc... If she's a carrier for any of those then you would need to make sure that the stallion is negative. I would only want an Arab for her. Pick a chestnut and then you'll either have a chestnut or palomino foal.

I didn't breed from my chestnut mare and now really regret it as she's too old now.
		
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This hence my chestnut Arab suggestions but because your want list is very specific you might be best off buying what you want.

Because as you know you can't breed to order as such and with Arab's they can be small even with 2 taller parents.


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## maya2008 (1 April 2022)

I agree with the poster above about how having them born at home with you and watching them grow makes them special - no matter how their conformation/temperament turns out. Our surprise foal from last year is nothing like her dam in anything but markings. She takes after her unknown sire, who I suspect jumped into the field to do the deed as our little one jumps everything and anything - logs in the field, fences, water troughs…!  She also must have his attitude, as her dam is sweet and gets on with anyone, yet we have this feisty, mischievous filly who tries to boss everyone around and is always causing trouble.

We also have one we bought - I got to pick size, temperament and build. She is perfect and very much as required.  I would buy if I wanted something specific, as their personalities etc are pretty obvious at weaning.


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## eggs (1 April 2022)

As I'm sure you know, just because you can doesn't mean you should.  Embryo transfer is still a pretty expensive way of breeding a foal and as you have a fairly extensive list of traits you want I would also agree with buying rather than breeding.  I have bred a few foals myself and also bought a few and tbh I doubt very much I would have bought some of them as an adult riding horse if I had gone to try them.


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## tda (1 April 2022)

I think for me, you are trying to breed something that is not the type your mare is, you want something bigger/longer .  What breed is she?
We breed trying to get the best of both parents, but sometimes you get the worst too 🙄
Plus ET is seriously expensive


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## piebaldproblems (1 April 2022)

I think she'd produce a lovely Anglo-Arab foal.... but (breeders on here correct me if I'm wrong) don't ET foals take after the transfer mare more than their dams, personality wise?


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## Ambers Echo (1 April 2022)

Fisrt foals are often small. My YO bred her lovely 15.2 mare to a 16.2 stallion to add height and ended up with a horse who is barely 15hh. She is also spooky as hell and nothing like either parent.
I am breeding Amber but mainly becaude I want to raise my own foal. I am not expecting a mini Amber from her.


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## shortstuff99 (1 April 2022)

I'm an enabler and I say go for it. I would be tempted by a TB or PRE/Luso stallion, but that is me.

If not I saw an absolutely gorgeous 2 year old PRE filly in Spain this week who will be something special


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## LadyGascoyne (1 April 2022)

Hi everyone, thanks for the great replies.

I would only breed from Mim if I could find the right stallion for her, if she passed tests, if my vet was happy with her, if I could use the mare I am loaning for ET (she has already had two of her own foals), if I can afford ET, and if I have time. 

So it’s not a case of leaping into anything, I don’t want anyone to worry. I just want to get a feel for what stallions are out there and whether there is anything that stands out as complementing Mim.  

I can buy myself riding horses regardless so it wouldn’t really matter if the foal didn’t  end up being as per a checklist but I don’t see the point in breeding from anything that won’t improve the mare. And as much as I love Mim, there are things to improve. 

To answer some specific questions: 

Mim is 80.2% Arab. Her dam is 95.7% Arab but has some pony blood way back in her bloodlines. Her sire is a PBA with Arab, Thoroughbred and British Riding Pony blood. 

I would want the same type. When I describe things they may seem extreme but I’m envisioning minor, nuanced conformational improvements, where possible, not a change in type.

Mim is just about 15hh but she’s a small horse. Everything about her is petite. I’d like more horse, and a height around 15.2nd/15.3hh would be lovely but if it’s bigger or smaller that’s not a crisis. It’s not like we won’t have room! 

Height wise, I would be using a mare who has had two foals previously so would that still qualify as a ‘first foal’ in terms of being small? I’d imagine that the genetics have little to do with height of a first foal but perhaps, if it is true that they are smaller, it’s about the physical accommodation? 

I like the idea of an Arab but I’d want to ensure the specific horse was more the old fashioned type - chunky and not showy. And I’d want it to have a better shoulder with longer length of rein, and not to be too short-coupled.

I’d consider an Iberian type but again would have to balance the compactness against Mim’s conformation. 

An Anglo-Arab could be an option but I don’t see too many around?


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## shortstuff99 (1 April 2022)

I'm not sure what Arabs do but all registered PRE stallions have a page where they show whether they give better length of neck, or chest etc which is really useful for when improving mares.

For example


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## Meowy Catkin (1 April 2022)

If you look beyond the show/halter bred arabs there is a lot of choice. It's always fun looking at stallions even if you decide to not go ahead after all. 

Eg:





https://shadwellarabian.co.uk/stallions/handassa/

or 
	
	
		
		
	


	




https://www.stallionsonline.co.uk/french-arabian-at-stud/


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## Meowy Catkin (1 April 2022)

RE Anglo-arab stallions, Biddesden stud had two last time I looked (Persiflage and All That Jazz) but they were bay.


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## LadyGascoyne (1 April 2022)

Oh my goodness that first chestnut is absolutely gorgeous @Meowy Catkin 

I’ll have a look at Biddesden too, I love bays.

Chestnut, bay, black, palomino or buckskin/ dun would all be great. 

I found some ideas on Google of types I like 




Crabbet, Gidran and Shagya mainly.


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## Pinkvboots (1 April 2022)

Toman is a lovely stallion

Jean Peck had a huge chestnut stallion she bred with I think he died a few years ago but they still may have frozen.


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## Pinkvboots (1 April 2022)

Another is Marcus Aurelius he does a bit of everything a very versatile type.


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## Cloball (1 April 2022)

Hispano Arab stallions?
https://www.caballohispanoarabe.com/catalogo-de-reproductores-ha/


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## Peregrine Falcon (1 April 2022)

I like breeding but there are no guarantees. Last one I bred was the mares 3rd foal and probably the smallest. Her 2nd foal I didn't particularly like and sold her as a 4yo. I still have the weanling, now a 7yo, I bought to keep her company.


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## Hackback (1 April 2022)

https://www.facebook.com/crabbetarabianstallion/ 

I have no idea if this link will work but it's to the Crabbet stallion Dhay. I would love one of his foals


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## LadyGascoyne (2 April 2022)

https://shadwellarabian.co.uk/stallions/handassa/

I really like this one! 

Dhay is absolutely beautiful but only 15hh. 

Marcus Aurelius is lovely too but 15.1hh.


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## Cloball (2 April 2022)

All of the Arab stallions I like are only about 14.2 😭 Mim and Marbon masterpiece would make a lovely (dinky) foal.


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## SilverLinings (2 April 2022)

Meowy Catkin said:



			If you look beyond the show/halter bred arabs there is a lot of choice. It's always fun looking at stallions even if you decide to not go ahead after all. 

Eg:





https://shadwellarabian.co.uk/stallions/handassa/

/

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MC I haven't seen an Arab like that for years, he's lovely! I went off Arabs quite a bit about 10-15yrs ago when locally all I started to see were ones with the more extreme seahorse heads (apologies to anyone who likes them but I really don't), but I really love the more old fashioned type of stamp with the less extreme dish to the face. One of the Connemara's I have now has a very high % of desert-bred Arab blood (introduced into the breed 1890's-1920's ish) and looks very much like the pictures of one of Lady Wentworth's Arab stallions back in the 1920s/30s. I am planning to look for something with a higher % of Arab blood the next time I buy, but having seen the stallion above I would consider full Arab if it looked like that!

Sorry LG for going off-topic, although I will add that Mim is absolutely lovely, and your posts about her (and the pictures of some of the Arabs owned by other HHOers) have definitely made me interested in Arabs again .


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## Pinkvboots (2 April 2022)

Jean Peck's stallion was Dervatiw Gwyddion he was over 16h I don't have any idea if they can still use him for breeding though.


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## Pinkvboots (2 April 2022)

The only other really big stallion I like is Final Shadow but his dark bay and in the middle East now alot of the Arab's I like are smaller.


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## LadyGascoyne (2 April 2022)

SilverLinings said:



			MC I haven't seen an Arab like that for years, he's lovely! I went off Arabs quite a bit about 10-15yrs ago when locally all I started to see were ones with the more extreme seahorse heads (apologies to anyone who likes them but I really don't), but I really love the more old fashioned type of stamp with the less extreme dish to the face. One of the Connemara's I have now has a very high % of desert-bred Arab blood (introduced into the breed 1890's-1920's ish) and looks very much like the pictures of one of Lady Wentworth's Arab stallions back in the 1920s/30s. I am planning to look for something with a higher % of Arab blood the next time I buy, but having seen the stallion above I would consider full Arab if it looked like that!

Sorry LG for going off-topic, although I will add that Mim is absolutely lovely, and your posts about her (and the pictures of some of the Arabs owned by other HHOers) have definitely made me interested in Arabs again .
		
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That’s the one I like the most at the moment! He’s lovely.


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## Clodagh (2 April 2022)

I think if you don’t mind too much about the end result you’d really enjoy it. I loved my foal.
Embryo transfer is very intrusive for the mare, are you sure you would not prefer Mim to have the fun bit too? ( I mean raising the foal).


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## LadyGascoyne (2 April 2022)

Clodagh said:



			I think if you don’t mind too much about the end result you’d really enjoy it. I loved my foal.
Embryo transfer is very intrusive for the mare, are you sure you would not prefer Mim to have the fun bit too? ( I mean raising the foal).
		
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I suppose it’s just the risk to her. I think she’d be an excellent mum. I just worry about putting her at that risk because of something I want.


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## ihatework (2 April 2022)

I’ve always liked Handassa, he is a proper stamp of Arab. I’d like one day to be brave enough to inject something like that into my future bloodlines.

If you are thinking Iberian there is this up at Twemlows you could keep and eye on - just bear in mind I know beggar all about what makes a good pre stallion.
http://stallionai.co.uk/stallions/eclipse-ces/


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## TheMule (2 April 2022)

Clodagh said:



			I think if you don’t mind too much about the end result you’d really enjoy it. I loved my foal.
Embryo transfer is very intrusive for the mare, are you sure you would not prefer Mim to have the fun bit too? ( I mean raising the foal).
		
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It's really not very intrusive for the mare- it's a hell of a lot less intrusive than her having it herself! It's also takes the risk out for a precious mare.
You need to scan for ovulation timing but then it's just a uterine flush.


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## Meowy Catkin (2 April 2022)

SilverLinings said:



			MC I haven't seen an Arab like that for years, he's lovely! I went off Arabs quite a bit about 10-15yrs ago when locally all I started to see were ones with the more extreme seahorse heads (apologies to anyone who likes them but I really don't), but I really love the more old fashioned type of stamp with the less extreme dish to the face. One of the Connemara's I have now has a very high % of desert-bred Arab blood (introduced into the breed 1890's-1920's ish) and looks very much like the pictures of one of Lady Wentworth's Arab stallions back in the 1920s/30s. I am planning to look for something with a higher % of Arab blood the next time I buy, but having seen the stallion above I would consider full Arab if it looked like that!

Sorry LG for going off-topic, although I will add that Mim is absolutely lovely, and your posts about her (and the pictures of some of the Arabs owned by other HHOers) have definitely made me interested in Arabs again .
		
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No offence taken.  From a seahorse headed arab owner.


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## Clodagh (2 April 2022)

TheMule said:



			ET is not that much more expensive when done right. Both times my


It's really not very intrusive for the mare- it's a hell of a lot less intrusive than her having it herself! It's also takes the risk out for a precious mare. 
You need to scan for ovulation timing but then it's just a uterine flush.
		
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Fair enough, good to know. I always thought it was endless scans and injections.


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## SilverLinings (2 April 2022)

Meowy Catkin said:



			No offence taken.  From a seahorse headed arab owner. 
	View attachment 90034

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Your horses all sound lovely MC, and what you've posted about them and their personalities is also part of why I started considering Arabs again. I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone, it's just my aesthetic preference (towards the Connie/TB/traditional Arab types), all horses are lovely but when I'm buying I am drawn to a particular type. I suppose the world would be boring if we all liked exactly the same things!


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## HashRouge (2 April 2022)

Gosh, Handassa is smashing! What a good looking horse!!


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## Pinkvboots (2 April 2022)

I've got a bit of a seahorse


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## Clodagh (3 April 2022)

I asked my old fashioned Arab breeding friend and she said…
There are the Shadwell stud frozen semen they are selling off cheap...mostly racing/French breeding but Vasilisk is Old Russian. Also look on the AHS premium stallion list http://www.ahs-premium.org.uk/


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## The Fuzzy Furry (3 April 2022)

Who was it on here that posted a fair bit previously,  that's in France and breeds Shagya Arabs?


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## LadyGascoyne (3 April 2022)

Clodagh said:



			I asked my old fashioned Arab breeding friend and she said…
There are the Shadwell stud frozen semen they are selling off cheap...mostly racing/French breeding but Vasilisk is Old Russian. Also look on the AHS premium stallion list http://www.ahs-premium.org.uk/

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Oh that’s brilliant. This year will be my year if investigating and due diligence. And Mim’s year of shows, fun rides and hacking. Next year would be baby plans, if all tests check out.


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## LadyGascoyne (3 April 2022)

@The Fuzzy Furry  I love shagyas, I remember the the posts but not the name I


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## The Fuzzy Furry (3 April 2022)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Who was it on here that posted a fair bit previously,  that's in France and breeds Shagya Arabs?
		
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She's on Facebook, as RaceRare Cleveland Bays and Shagya Arabians,  has had a good amount of SJ success with her lovely big grey Arab mare.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (3 April 2022)

LadyGascoyne said:



@The Fuzzy Furry  I love shagyas, I remember the the posts but not the name I
		
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I think it might have been Rollin but am on phone without specs,  worth a search tho x


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## Cloball (3 April 2022)

I don't know who the vlaq stud use but they usually have some lovely tall chestnut Arabs and partnered Arabs.


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## Pinkvboots (3 April 2022)

Cloball said:



			I don't know who the vlaq stud use but they usually have some lovely tall chestnut Arabs and partnered Arabs.
		
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They breed some lovely Arab's so does Coombe farm he uses a lot of the old English and Polish lines, thing is the crabbet arabs tend to be smaller or most of the ones I know of are.


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## Hackback (3 April 2022)

Pinkvboots said:



			They breed some lovely Arab's so does Coombe farm he uses a lot of the old English and Polish lines, thing is the crabbet arabs tend to be smaller or most of the ones I know of are.
		
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Yes, I'm torn because I love Crabbets - they are the Arabian horse of my childhood books and dreams - but they don't seem to come in tall sizes, although they are strong and sturdy to make up for it.

While I really like the look of Handassa, in my eyes he is more like a thoroughbred than an Arab in his quarters, although I think he is French and that this is typical of a French Arab? Perhaps that type would suit me better, as I am quite tall, but I am just a sucker for a Crabbet!


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## Cortez (3 April 2022)

SilverLinings said:



			MC I haven't seen an Arab like that for years, he's lovely! I went off Arabs quite a bit about 10-15yrs ago when locally all I started to see were ones with the more extreme seahorse heads (apologies to anyone who likes them but I really don't), but I really love the more old fashioned type of stamp with the less extreme dish to the face. One of the Connemara's I have now has a very high % of desert-bred Arab blood (introduced into the breed 1890's-1920's ish) and looks very much like the pictures of one of Lady Wentworth's Arab stallions back in the 1920s/30s. I am planning to look for something with a higher % of Arab blood the next time I buy, but having seen the stallion above I would consider full Arab if it looked like that!

Sorry LG for going off-topic, although I will add that Mim is absolutely lovely, and your posts about her (and the pictures of some of the Arabs owned by other HHOers) have definitely made me interested in Arabs again .
		
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Blimey, I don't know what you're seeing there, but that horse has the *worst* hind end/croup I've ever seen on an Arab (or other breed for that matter).


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## Pinkvboots (3 April 2022)

Hackback said:



			Yes, I'm torn because I love Crabbets - they are the Arabian horse of my childhood books and dreams - but they don't seem to come in tall sizes, although they are strong and sturdy to make up for it.

While I really like the look of Handassa, in my eyes he is more like a thoroughbred than an Arab in his quarters, although I think he is French and that this is typical of a French Arab? Perhaps that type would suit me better, as I am quite tall, but I am just a sucker for a Crabbet!
		
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I like the crabbet arabs the only tall one I ever knew was a mare my friend owned She was Ashlings bred by Sheila in Essex they don't breed anymore but she was a beautiful rose grey and 15.2 she was quite fine though.

Most of the others I know are short and stocky looking Jean Peck bred some lovely crabbets alot where champions in the ring.

I do think a lot of the older Polish lines are similar to some crabbet types they are generally a bigger more substantial horse.

My 2 are are Russian Polish one is barely 15 hands and stocky the other is 15.2 and finer, both closely related and come from show lines but they are probably classed as old fashioned types now compared to what they breed now.


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## Pinkvboots (3 April 2022)

Cortez said:



			Blimey, I don't know what you're seeing there, but that horse has the *worst* hind end/croup I've ever seen on an Arab (or other breed for that matter).
		
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I must admit I'm not a fan of that one either.


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## Pinkvboots (3 April 2022)

Hackback said:



			Yes, I'm torn because I love Crabbets - they are the Arabian horse of my childhood books and dreams - but they don't seem to come in tall sizes, although they are strong and sturdy to make up for it.

While I really like the look of Handassa, in my eyes he is more like a thoroughbred than an Arab in his quarters, although I think he is French and that this is typical of a French Arab? Perhaps that type would suit me better, as I am quite tall, but I am just a sucker for a Crabbet!
		
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I find the bigger boned wide type do take up your leg and Silvern Rislam was high percentage crabett and only 14.1 Darren Crowe won everything with him under saddle and I really don't think he looked big on him.


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## LadyGascoyne (3 April 2022)

Oh it’s so annoying to have to retype this constantly because of bug at the moment

@Cortez @Pinkvboots

I agree his hind end does let him down. But he has raced successfully so there must be some power in it.

He has an athleticism that Mim doesn’t have but agreed there is a lot of thoroughbredyness (new word) about him


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## Cortez (3 April 2022)

Are you planning on racing, or going very fast?


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## Equi (3 April 2022)

LadyGascoyne said:



			Oh it’s so annoying to have to retype this constantly because of bug at the moment

@Cortez @Pinkvboots

I agree his hind end does let him down. But he has raced successfully so there must be some power in it.

He has an athleticism that Mim doesn’t have but agreed there is a lot of thoroughbredyness (new word) about him

View attachment 90098

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I’d say he pulls a lot with the front though. Arnie at the front but not so much in the hind.


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## LadyGascoyne (3 April 2022)

Still struggling to post but @Cortez

Mim has the tiniest canter strides so a bit more reach wouldn’t go amiss.

@Equi may well be the case.

I’ve looked at his sires conformation and it is similar in the hind end. May be a deal breaker.


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## Cortez (3 April 2022)

LadyGascoyne said:



			Still struggling to post but @Cortez

Mim has the tiniest canter strides so a bit more reach wouldn’t go amiss.
		
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Unless you plan to go racing, using that as a guide isn't a lot of use. Race horses are not designed for riding, they're made to go extremely fast, on the forehand, that's all. You need a sire with a big, open frame and balanced conformation,  fore and aft.


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## Hackback (3 April 2022)

LadyGascoyne said:



@Cortez @Pinkvboots

I agree his hind end does let him down. But he has raced successfully so there must be some power in it.

He has an athleticism that Mim doesn’t have but agreed there is a lot of thoroughbredyness (new word) about him 

View attachment 90098

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I agree but there's a reason TBs are the shape they are, so it makes sense that horses bred for racing will gravitate towards the same body type. It's just a different type, not necessarily wrong and it may be what you are looking for for Mim. My friend who has bred a lot in the past always says you should look at the offspring, not just the sire.


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## LadyGascoyne (3 April 2022)

Cortez said:



			Unless you plan to go racing, using that as a guide isn't a lot of use. Race horses are not designed for riding, they're made to go extremely fast, on the forehand, that's all. You need a sire with a big, open frame and balanced conformation,  fore and aft.
		
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I’d be happy to breed a large hack type from Mim, and many of them are very Thoroughbredy. I was thinking of an Anglo Arab but there aren’t too many about right now. 

I will keep looking but everything is very small in the purebred Arab category.



Hackback said:



			I agree but there's a reason TBs are the shape they are, so it makes sense that horses bred for racing will gravitate towards the same body type. It's just a different type, not necessarily wrong and it may be what you are looking for for Mim. My friend who has bred a lot in the past always says you should look at the offspring, not just the sire.
		
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## Amymay (3 April 2022)

Cortez said:



			Unless you plan to go racing, using that as a guide isn't a lot of use. Race horses are not designed for riding, they're made to go extremely fast, on the forehand, that's all. You need a sire with a big, open frame and balanced conformation,  fore and aft.
		
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Such as,

https://langallerfarm.co.uk/stallions/langaller-starring-role-gb/


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## Cortez (3 April 2022)

Amymay said:



			Such as,

https://langallerfarm.co.uk/stallions/langaller-starring-role-gb/

Click to expand...

Yup, he'll do 🙂


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## Pinkvboots (4 April 2022)

Amymay said:



			Such as,

https://langallerfarm.co.uk/stallions/langaller-starring-role-gb/

Click to expand...

His lovely 😍


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## LadyGascoyne (4 April 2022)

But he’s a 16.2hh Irish Sports Horse/ Thb/ Warmblood mix? 

No doubt, he’s a beautiful, quality horse but he is the opposite of Mim’s type.


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## Pinkvboots (4 April 2022)

I would rather use something with a bit more bone and substance than a fine athletic type for Mim but I like a more substantial horse in general 😉


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## Pinkvboots (4 April 2022)

LadyGascoyne said:



			But he’s a 16.2hh Irish Sports Horse/ Thb/ Warmblood mix?

No doubt, he’s a beautiful, quality horse but he is the opposite of Mim’s type.
		
Click to expand...

I know what you mean but I suppose it totally depends on what you want, if you put something very similar to her you will end up with something similar.

Because you said she is very petite and wanted something bigger I would use something bigger to add that or you will just end up with another Mim.


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## LadyGascoyne (4 April 2022)

I’d want to keep as similar as possible - I don’t want a different type of horse to Mim. I do want to find a stallion that could improve her weaker points and add a bit of height. But we are talking a couple of inches at most. Mim is very short-coupled and that has the effect of her being a very small horse all round. I’d like to breed something like Mim, ideally less short-coupled, with bit more length of rein. A bit more horse in front of the girth groove would be nice. 

This is not a horse for Andrea to ride and compete on, and for me to ride at clinics etc. That I am in the process of purchasing and that will be Iberian (or at the very least Baroque type). 

This would be about preserving Mim’s lines and having something for the future that is from her.


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## Meowy Catkin (4 April 2022)

I feel like I should apologise for putting the photo of Handassa on your thread because it has derailed it. Sorry about that. I was hoping to show that there are taller arabs out there, especially if you look beyond the 'halter bred' lines. My chestnut mare is by a Russian race bred arab and out of a TB, so that's why I thought about race bred stallions. I'm sure there are lots of others with better conformation out there, the ones I find are always grey though and I know you don't want a grey.


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## LadyGascoyne (4 April 2022)

Meowy Catkin said:



			I feel like I should apologise for putting the photo of Handassa on your thread because it has derailed it. Sorry about that. I was hoping to show that there are taller arabs out there, especially if you look beyond the 'halter bred' lines. My chestnut mare is by a Russian race bred arab and out of a TB, so that's why I thought about race bred stallions. I'm sure there are lots of others with better conformation out there, the ones I find are always grey though and I know you don't want a grey. 

Click to expand...

I like him, and I like the type of Arab he is. I prefer it to the show Arabs but do like the Crabbets too although they are smaller. It was really useful to see him, so don’t apologise at all.

He actually reminded me of my beloved Lady Gascoyne in some ways. Although she was full Thb and 15.2hh on her tip toes.


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## Meowy Catkin (4 April 2022)

http://arabianstallionguide.com/index.php

I've not seen this before but it might be helpful. 

ETA - not as helpful as I hoped, there's only a few stallions on there currently.


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## Pinkvboots (5 April 2022)

I am not trying to be too critical and I did misunderstand what you were trying to breed I thought you were wanting something bigger for yourself.

I would try and find a pure or part bred arab as best put together as you can, some of the old Russian polish lines can be bigger and not your typical show type Arab.

You could always speak to Mims breeder about what she would suggest to use.


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## LadyGascoyne (5 April 2022)

Don’t worry at all, all criticism is very welcome - it’s a very serious decision to make.

I’d like to be able to ride the horse but I can ride Mim now, even though she’s tiny. I wouldn’t be breeding a riding horse for myself, I will be buying that. But actually, riding means very little to me.

I’d be breeding only to improve Mim rather than breed something with similar weaknesses to her. 

If the foal was something like Fame’s Dakota, I’d be very pleased. But I would prefer solid coloured to patchy. I will ask her breeder but would prefer to do some research first.


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## LadyGascoyne (5 April 2022)

Because I can’t seem to update this post without the site reloading, Horse would be to keep and if I can ride it, great, but if it’s a bit small then we will find a rider for it, as we’ve done with Mim.


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## Cortez (5 April 2022)

LadyGascoyne said:



			Don’t worry at all, all criticism is very welcome - it’s a very serious decision to make.

I’d like to be able to ride the horse but I can ride Mim now, even though she’s tiny. I wouldn’t be breeding a riding horse for myself, I will be buying that. But actually, riding means very little to me.

I’d be breeding only to improve Mim rather than breed something with similar weaknesses to her.

If the foal was something like Fame’s Dakota, I’d be very pleased. But I would prefer solid coloured to patchy. I will ask her breeder but would prefer to do some research first.

View attachment 90182

Click to expand...


I'm quite confused as to what you actually want to achieve by breeding your mare, other than to have her genes (she is, I believe, part bred Arab, is that correct?). Your list of "improvements" is far too long for it to be possible to achieve all of them.

The horse pictured above is of strong warmblood type (look past the colour, unless it's colour you want?) and wouldn't be my choice to put on your mare (although he is nice, other than the colour, but I'm not interested in such notions); far too different in type and I don't think he would compliment her.

P.S. ANY foal out of your mare is extremely unlikely to be anything like Fame's Dakota.


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## CanteringCarrot (5 April 2022)

I'm going to come off totally rude here, but...

Are Mim's lines worth preserving? Is there something special about her breeding? If she has so much that needs to be "corrected" then I'd consider why I'd want to breed at all. A stallion does not/cannot always correct everything. You could end up with nearly a carbon copy of Mim. If you're fine with that, then that's fine. I just don't like when people breed their mares because of some emotional attachment without realizing the foal could be so far from what they envision. It also sounds like you want her type, but you don't, at the same time. So I'm a bit confused.

I'm a bit in the fence about these types of breedings. We have so many horses in the world right now, I personally won't contribute to that number with such a gamble (it's always a gamble but I prefer to have the best odds). Sure, people say "but they'd have a home for life with me" would they really? No one can guarantee that. So much could happen. Breeding can also come with great heartache. It doesn't always, but I just don't want people breeding with rose colored glasses. I don't know why I'm such an odd stickler about this stuff, and people can totally disregard my opinion. I just feel as though people have to breed it because it can be bred sometimes, and the "dream" of saying that one has a homebred. Quite frankly there are people out there breeding that have no business doing so.

However, if you're genuinely accepting of the fact that things can go awry and that you could end up with the opposite of what you're wishing for, then fair enough. It is ultimately your money, your horse, and your mental state 😜 but my point is, just because you like your mare well enough, doesn't mean you have to breed her.

Apologies for being so rude, this is just something I feel passionate about. I'd say this to anyone, not just you. I know some people feel as though this is the only way they can afford or get a quality horse/the type they want, but I do wish that we'd be a bit more careful at times. You've got to be careful with emotions when breeding.

Mim is still young, yes? So you definitely have time to think about it and time to look around.

I have mixed feelings on using a recipient mare. I understand why some do it for a performance mare that is competing and whatnot but sometimes it feels as though the life of your horse is so valuable that it cannot be risked, but the life of this recipient mare isn't so valuable, so risking it is fine. It just devalues another living being, IMO, but I guess we (and animals) all have our place in this world.

Anyway, my opinion is worth the piece of paper that it's written on 😉 I just want people to really be thoughtful and a bit objective on the matter.


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## ihatework (5 April 2022)

A random mix of further thoughts in no particular order.

Is her type, and are her genetics, strong enough to consider breeding from her yet? For me thats dubious, she is lovely, and I'm not saying don't breed, but maybe consider she should prove herself sound under saddle, and trainable when things get tougher, for an extended duration?

Using a surrogate. This has a huge influence on the foal and temprementally the foal would take more from the surrogate than it will from Mim. Also uterus size and prior foals has a not insignificant bearing on the size of the offspring (in addition to the genetics), so bear that in mind. 

Embryo transfer does add cost. If things go well and they take first time, in the grand scheme of things its not a big cost. But if tou go multiple cycles, which you may have to do if you aren't using a surrogate herd but infact trying for a particular surrogate to use then this could mount up.

In terms of stallion selection for me, a far bigger consideration is what they throw. Are they consistent in adding specific traits? This generally means it would be sensible to consider older stallions, with lots of stock,  who are proven to stamp their stock in favourable ways. Its fine if you are a big breeder, but for hobby amatuer breeders (for which I'm one) it's better to at least try and stack the odds in your favour.

How is this foal going to be bought up? I cannot stress how much you need to consider the right environment. If you are going to create that at home it will probably mean buying/loaning/livery for other youngstock. Yes people do successfully raise foals in non ideal situations, but it's not something I personally feel is right, especially in pre-planned situations.

The liklihood is you won't breed what you want! If you do, great, consider yourself lucky. So this is really an emotional journey and investment. And on the whole it's an amazing journey! But an ET from a young unproven mare, using a surrogate you have no real connection to just doesn't seem like the right move. Personally, I'd enjoy Mim for what she is now and take a foal from her in a few years, naturally.

But thats just my thoughts.


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## ihatework (5 April 2022)

I see we are all thinking along similar lines!


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## LadyGascoyne (5 April 2022)

I wouldn’t anticipate the foal having all the improvements. They aren’t a list of requirements but a list of things where Mim’s build could be improved and I would prefer not to compound any faults by not taking them into account. I am considering minor improvements to Mim’s existing conformation, not a completely different horse.

I think I’ve communicated it badly because everyone seems to be seeing this as a wish list for a horse, and I mean it to be a number of factors that would inform stallion choice. 

The aim of having a foal from Mim would be to preserve her lines (you’d have to meet her to understand what a super little horse she is) but also to have our own foal, from the start, and enjoy that journey. 

Mim will be going out and about this year and next, and won’t have a foal until she’s had a bit of a ridden career and may do some showing. Mim is graded premium with SPSS.

Fames Dakota is Mim’s breeder’s stallion and is 99.7% Arab, and 15.2hh. I’d prefer a solid coloured horse myself so didn’t have him high up on the list but that’s just a personal preference and it’s not something I couldn’t be swayed on for the right horse.


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## LadyGascoyne (5 April 2022)

ihatework said:



			A random mix of further thoughts in no particular order.

Is her type, and are her genetics, strong enough to consider breeding from her yet? For me thats dubious, she is lovely, and I'm not saying don't breed, but maybe consider she should prove herself sound under saddle, and trainable when things get tougher, for an extended duration?

Using a surrogate. This has a huge influence on the foal and temprementally the foal would take more from the surrogate than it will from Mim. Also uterus size and prior foals has a not insignificant bearing on the size of the offspring (in addition to the genetics), so bear that in mind. 

Embryo transfer does add cost. If things go well and they take first time, in the grand scheme of things its not a big cost. But if tou go multiple cycles, which you may have to do if you aren't using a surrogate herd but infact trying for a particular surrogate to use then this could mount up.

In terms of stallion selection for me, a far bigger consideration is what they throw. Are they consistent in adding specific traits? This generally means it would be sensible to consider older stallions, with lots of stock,  who are proven to stamp their stock in favourable ways. Its fine if you are a big breeder, but for hobby amatuer breeders (for which I'm one) it's better to at least try and stack the odds in your favour.

How is this foal going to be bought up? I cannot stress how much you need to consider the right environment. If you are going to create that at home it will probably mean buying/loaning/livery for other youngstock. Yes people do successfully raise foals in non ideal situations, but it's not something I personally feel is right, especially in pre-planned situations.

The liklihood is you won't breed what you want! If you do, great, consider yourself lucky. So this is really an emotional journey and investment. And on the whole it's an amazing journey! But an ET from a young unproven mare, using a surrogate you have no real connection to just doesn't seem like the right move. Personally, I'd enjoy Mim for what she is now and take a foal from her in a few years, naturally.

But thats just my thoughts.
		
Click to expand...


Thanks, super thoughts. Lots to consider.

Writing and saving as I go due to forum bug.

On logistics Mim’s breeder is planning to use the mare that we currently have as a companion for Mim as an ET mare in the future. She has had foals previously, and is a lovely, sweet mare. So the mare isn’t random to us, she’s with us at the moment. 

If we went through with it, we’d have two mares at home, due around the same date. There is a possibility that one of those mares could be Mim’s dam. The other would be our companion mare. My plan would be to have both foals at home, and once weaned, the mares would go back and the foals could stay. 

When foals are less breakable, they would go out with the herd. That would include Mim, depending on the sex of the foals.

But logistics are way down the line - I first want to see if there are any stallions out there that I would even consider breeding to Mim.


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## milliepops (5 April 2022)

Much of the joy, for me, of breeding my own was seeing my mare interact with her offspring. i understand the rationale for ET but as this sounds like a pet project rather than the start of a serious breeding operation you might want to consider if that's important to you. ET is out of my budget anyway, but for me, breeding for myself for fairly sentimental reasons, I enjoyed that close connection.
on a personal level, if i could afford an ET foal then i'd be better off buying a young horse that met the criteria i was hoping for, frankly.

My homebred has brought out some lovely elements of both parents, and some curveballs (where has the, erm, old fashioned face come from, when both parents had such a refined one?! haha)


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## LadyGascoyne (5 April 2022)

milliepops said:



			Much of the joy, for me, of breeding my own was seeing my mare interact with her offspring. i understand the rationale for ET but as this sounds like a pet project rather than the start of a serious breeding operation you might want to consider if that's important to you. ET is out of my budget anyway, but for me, breeding for myself for fairly sentimental reasons, I enjoyed that close connection.
on a personal level, if i could afford an ET foal then i'd be better off buying a young horse that met the criteria i was hoping for, frankly.

My homebred has brought out some lovely elements of both parents, and some curveballs (where has the, erm, old fashioned face come from, when both parents had such a refined one?! haha)
		
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Yes, I have considered that Mim having her own foal is something very special. I haven’t ruled it out but do have a future ET mare standing in my field so it did seem like the opportunity had presented itself quite independently of my concerns for Mim.

I think my order of thinking is:

Do I think there is a stallion out there who would suit Mim? If there isn’t, there really isn’t any point to breeding.

Then, where is Mim in her life, schooling, competing, health - and what would the optimal point for her to be put in foal?

Then, what are the logistics around ET/ carrying her own foal/ our other mares/ if her dam does come to us etc.

Then, what does that cost, and do I have the time with work etc.

Ps I loved Salty’s foal!


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## LadyGascoyne (5 April 2022)

CanteringCarrot said:



			I'm going to come off totally rude here, but...

Are Mim's lines worth preserving? Is there something special about her breeding? If she has so much that needs to be "corrected" then I'd consider why I'd want to breed at all. A stallion does not/cannot always correct everything. You could end up with nearly a carbon copy of Mim. If you're fine with that, then that's fine. I just don't like when people breed their mares because of some emotional attachment without realizing the foal could be so far from what they envision. It also sounds like you want her type, but you don't, at the same time. So I'm a bit confused.

I'm a bit in the fence about these types of breedings. We have so many horses in the world right now, I personally won't contribute to that number with such a gamble (it's always a gamble but I prefer to have the best odds). Sure, people say "but they'd have a home for life with me" would they really? No one can guarantee that. So much could happen. Breeding can also come with great heartache. It doesn't always, but I just don't want people breeding with rose colored glasses. I don't know why I'm such an odd stickler about this stuff, and people can totally disregard my opinion. I just feel as though people have to breed it because it can be bred sometimes, and the "dream" of saying that one has a homebred. Quite frankly there are people out there breeding that have no business doing so.

However, if you're genuinely accepting of the fact that things can go awry and that you could end up with the opposite of what you're wishing for, then fair enough. It is ultimately your money, your horse, and your mental state 😜 but my point is, just because you like your mare well enough, doesn't mean you have to breed her.

Apologies for being so rude, this is just something I feel passionate about. I'd say this to anyone, not just you. I know some people feel as though this is the only way they can afford or get a quality horse/the type they want, but I do wish that we'd be a bit more careful at times. You've got to be careful with emotions when breeding.

Mim is still young, yes? So you definitely have time to think about it and time to look around.

I have mixed feelings on using a recipient mare. I understand why some do it for a performance mare that is competing and whatnot but sometimes it feels as though the life of your horse is so valuable that it cannot be risked, but the life of this recipient mare isn't so valuable, so risking it is fine. It just devalues another living being, IMO, but I guess we (and animals) all have our place in this world.

Anyway, my opinion is worth the piece of paper that it's written on 😉 I just want people to really be thoughtful and a bit objective on the matter.
		
Click to expand...

No don’t worry about being rude - it makes for an interesting and diverse thread


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## tristar (5 April 2022)

LadyGascoyne said:



			Oh my goodness that first chestnut is absolutely gorgeous @Meowy Catkin 

I’ll have a look at Biddesden too, I love bays.

Chestnut, bay, black, palomino or buckskin/ dun would all be great. 

I found some ideas on Google of types I like 

View attachment 89974


Crabbet, Gidran and Shagya mainly.
		
Click to expand...

was that top left stallion lady anne lyttons mesaoud? one of my favourites

someone i know had a foal by marcus aurelius who was LFS, so check that out


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## LadyGascoyne (5 April 2022)

tristar said:



			was that top left stallion lady anne lyttons mesaoud? one of my favourites

someone i know had a foal by marcus aurelius who was LFS, so check that out
		
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Yes he is! Isn’t he fantastic.

Really good to know about MA.


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## KittenInTheTree (5 April 2022)

What about a nice Connemara? That might give you the boost in height and athleticism you're talking about.


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## HashRouge (5 April 2022)

Marcus Aurelius is really smashing, and I know they've evented him, so really handy. Possibly not quite tall enough for what you want though? I'm a tall girl who likes to ride Arabs, so have been very lucky with my current share horse, who is purebred and 16hh. His sire is a US halter-bred stallion though, so very different type to MA and probably not what I would choose if I was trying to breed for performance. My share horse is very pretty, but not especially handy or athletic! Of stallions I know of in the UK, I like Mukhtar Ibn Eternity too, but I think he's really quite small so wouldn't be much help. I think H Tobago would have suited her, but a bit late in the day for that sadly!


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## tristar (5 April 2022)

check out the arab horse societies pba section for stallions 

mim is turning out very well i particularly like her quarters, decent length level croup, i would use arab cross something stallion

have a look on sport horse G B website, i know i was going to put our pre,x arab,x tb, stallion on there at one time, and during the convo it was expressed they were keen on encouraging as many different types as poss to get graded


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## tristar (5 April 2022)

if you like the real riding type arabs, take a look at the polish arab, the late great comet, but he is grey, if you can get that blood into your foal even though several generations ago, he could still be an influencing factor, and if mim had a filly who knows one day you may want to breed on further

see what you think of comet


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## Cortez (5 April 2022)

If you have access to your mare's dam, and want to preserve the line, why don't you breed a foal out of the mare? If the sire is still active you could even breed a full sibling?


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## Caol Ila (5 April 2022)

I don't know a thing about breeding, but does breeding a mare to a stallion who 'corrects' her conformational faults actually give you a foal that's an improvement on the mare? I've read that before, but my rough comprehension of genetics and inheritence suggests that it's a total crapshoot. Like if I'd wanted to breed my very long-backed, loose-coupled mare, I would have chosen a short-coupled stallion with a strong back. As I understand it, my foal might inherit his dam's long back. He might inherit his sire's short back. He might end up somewhere in between. Who knows? It's not a guaranteed way to get a horse that improves my horse's conformational shortcomings. Obviously you want to hedge your bets and not breed something that has the same or similar faults as your mare, but you might get them anyway.

Is that correct?


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## TheMule (5 April 2022)

Caol Ila said:



			I don't know a thing about breeding, but does breeding a mare to a stallion who 'corrects' her conformational faults actually give you a foal that's an improvement on the mare? I've read that before, but my rough comprehension of genetics and inheritence suggests that it's a total crapshoot. Like if I'd wanted to breed my very long-backed, loose-coupled mare, I would have chosen a short-coupled stallion with a strong back. As I understand it, my foal might inherit his dam's long back. He might inherit his sire's short back. He might end up somewhere in between. Who knows? It's not a guaranteed way to get a horse that improves my horse's conformational shortcomings. Obviously you want to hedge your bets and not breed something that has the same or similar faults as your mare, but you might get them anyway.

Is that correct?
		
Click to expand...


Absolutely- breeding is a genetic lottery so you might choose a stallion that has strengths in areas of your mares weaknesses and get lucky with improving them, or not. You have to be willing to get the same as the mare but improve your odds as much as you can by choosing a stallion with a strong genetic history of producing the types you want- himself through his progeny and/or through his own sire and dam.
For example, I chose a couple of typey stallions for my long backed mare who had a short, awkward neck but was a great athlete with a huge heart. Her first foal mostly had the same weaknesses as her so I chose even more carefully the second time and her second foal has taken a lot from his sire and is strong where his mother was weak- the stallion has improved on her in every way. 
It's not enough just to pick a stallion you like the look of if you need to improve,  it needs to really stamp its offspring with the qualities you need.

BTW, when I asked this forum many years ago what stallion to use on my mare most people who commented were horrified I would breed from her. There's no way on this planet I could have got anything more perfect for me than my 5yr old, but I've also had the heartbreak of losing her first foal.


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## TheMule (5 April 2022)

Photo illustration of my point


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## Caol Ila (5 April 2022)

Is the chestnut the son? He's a stunning horse.

I occasionally search Facebook for Caso's sire. I saw him as an awkward two-year old (obviously unaware that he'd been a naughty boy), but I would love to know what sort of horse he's maturing into. Might never know.


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## TheMule (5 April 2022)

Caol Ila said:



			Is the chestnut the son? He's a stunning horse.

I occasionally search Facebook for Caso's sire. I saw him as an awkward two-year old (obviously unaware that he'd been a naughty boy), but I would love to know what sort of horse he's maturing into. Might never know.
		
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Thank you- I think he is a real upgrade on his dam and she was a super horse for me so 🤞

2yr olds are notoriously gawky looking, I wouldn’t judge him too harshly 😂


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## Caol Ila (5 April 2022)

That's why I'd love to see him now. He had terrible sweet-itch, but he seemed like a nice lad. The lassies clearly thought so.


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## LadyGascoyne (5 April 2022)

Cortez said:



			If you have access to your mare's dam, and want to preserve the line, why don't you breed a foal out of the mare? If the sire is still active you could even breed a full sibling?
		
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We could if we bought her but unfortunately the sire is now gelded. We’d probably have her on loan / to graze but may not be able to buy her. I’m not sure she’d be sold.



Caol Ila said:



			I don't know a thing about breeding, but does breeding a mare to a stallion who 'corrects' her conformational faults actually give you a foal that's an improvement on the mare? I've read that before, but my rough comprehension of genetics and inheritence suggests that it's a total crapshoot. Like if I'd wanted to breed my very long-backed, loose-coupled mare, I would have chosen a short-coupled stallion with a strong back. As I understand it, my foal might inherit his dam's long back. He might inherit his sire's short back. He might end up somewhere in between. Who knows? It's not a guaranteed way to get a horse that improves my horse's conformational shortcomings. Obviously you want to hedge your bets and not breed something that has the same or similar faults as your mare, but you might get them anyway.

Is that correct?
		
Click to expand...

Yes suspect it’s a lottery as @TheMule says but I might improve the odds of having a slightly less shortcoupled horse if the sire the sire was longer.


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## LadyGascoyne (5 April 2022)

tristar said:



			if you like the real riding type arabs, take a look at the polish arab, the late great comet, but he is grey, if you can get that blood into your foal even though several generations ago, he could still be an influencing factor, and if mim had a filly who knows one day you may want to breed on further

see what you think of comet
		
Click to expand...

Absolutely breathtaking!


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## LadyGascoyne (5 April 2022)

TheMule said:



			Photo illustration of my point

View attachment 90198


View attachment 90199

Click to expand...

They are both lovely but wow that chestnut is beautiful


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## LadyGascoyne (5 April 2022)

TheMule said:



			Absolutely- breeding is a genetic lottery so you might choose a stallion that has strengths in areas of your mares weaknesses and get lucky with improving them, or not. You have to be willing to get the same as the mare but improve your odds as much as you can by choosing a stallion with a strong genetic history of producing the types you want- himself through his progeny and/or through his own sire and dam.
For example, I chose a couple of typey stallions for my long backed mare who had a short, awkward neck but was a great athlete with a huge heart. Her first foal mostly had the same weaknesses as her so I chose even more carefully the second time and her second foal has taken a lot from his sire and is strong where his mother was weak- the stallion has improved on her in every way. 
It's not enough just to pick a stallion you like the look of if you need to improve,  it needs to really stamp its offspring with the qualities you need.

BTW, when I asked this forum many years ago what stallion to use on my mare most people who commented were horrified I would breed from her. There's no way on this planet I could have got anything more perfect for me than my 5yr old, but I've also had the heartbreak of losing her first foal.
		
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This is exactly what I’m hoping to find. The right horse to compliment her and give us the best chance of improving weaknesses.


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## Amymay (5 April 2022)

LadyGascoyne said:



			This is exactly what I’m hoping to find. The right horse to compliment her and give us the best chance of improving weaknesses.
		
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In that case I’d strongly suggest an Arab, especially as further up you say you’re not wanting to breed a riding horse.  I think the coloured would produce a very odd looking horse with your mare.


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## SilverLinings (5 April 2022)

Pinkvboots said:



			I've got a bit of a seahorse
	View attachment 90056

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Sorry PvB, I feel like I've offended quite a few Arab owners on this thread- in mitigation I like all horses (they are horses so how could I not!), just prefer a certain look when I am buying. Am equally not drawn to heavy types (I don't have the hip abduction to ride them), but can appreciate what others see in them. I have possibly now offended even more owners, so will get my coat...!

I realise I can be a bit blunt, so hope I haven't actually offended anyone on this thread.


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## SilverLinings (5 April 2022)

LG, I know you say you couldn't buy Mim's dam, but could you loan/rent her as a surrogate, with you choosing the stallion?


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## Meowy Catkin (5 April 2022)

SilverLinings said:



			Sorry PvB, I feel like I've offended quite a few Arab owners on this thread- in mitigation I like all horses (they are horses so how could I not!), just prefer a certain look when I am buying. Am equally not drawn to heavy types (I don't have the hip abduction to ride them), but can appreciate what others see in them. I have possibly now offended even more owners, so will get my coat...!

I realise I can be a bit blunt, so hope I haven't actually offended anyone on this thread.
		
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I don't think you have. Well you certainly haven't offended me.  It can be an excuse to show a photo of our horses.


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## NinjaPony (5 April 2022)

This has probably been suggested already but if you are interested in an Anglo Arab, why not breed your own? You could pick a light elegant TB sire which might tick some of your 'wants', like length of neck/back, longer stride etc? I could see that complementing her nicely.


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## Cloball (5 April 2022)

https://mistrals-stud.weebly.com/stallions.html
Slightly rogue suggestion 😅


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## LadyGascoyne (5 April 2022)

Amymay said:



			In that case I’d strongly suggest an Arab, especially as further up you say you’re not wanting to breed a riding horse.  I think the coloured would produce a very odd looking horse with your mare.
		
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I’m leaning that way too. If I’m light enough to ride the horse then that’s great. I’m just 5’8 and 68-70kg at the moment although I used to weigh 57-63kg for many years. It is on me to get back to a reasonable weight to ride a small horse but if it could be a little taller - even 1 or 2 inches- I’d be thrilled.



SilverLinings said:



			LG, I know you say you couldn't buy Mim's dam, but could you loan/rent her as a surrogate, with you choosing the stallion?
		
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I might well be able to do that but the lovely mare that we have here is already destined to be a surrogate (owner has her reasons) and Mim’s mum is producing her own fabulous foals. This year’s is absolutely gorgeous.


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## LadyGascoyne (5 April 2022)

Cloball said:



https://mistrals-stud.weebly.com/stallions.html
Slightly rogue suggestion 😅
		
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Oooooooohhhh, very rogue. Gorgeous though!


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## stangs (5 April 2022)

Have you looked at any Teke stallions? As a breed, they tick several of your boxes.


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## LadyGascoyne (5 April 2022)

stangs said:



			Have you looked at any Teke stallions? As a breed, they tick several of your boxes.
		
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I searched for some but there are very few that are not double dilute in the Uk. Unless maybe I’m searching badly?


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## LadyGascoyne (5 April 2022)

NinjaPony said:



			This has probably been suggested already but if you are interested in an Anglo Arab, why not breed your own? You could pick a light elegant TB sire which might tick some of your 'wants', like length of neck/back, longer stride etc? I could see that complementing her nicely.
		
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Definitely a possibility! Nice smart large hack type Thoroughbred could be lovely.


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## LadyGascoyne (5 April 2022)

Meowy Catkin said:



			I don't think you have. Well you certainly haven't offended me.  It can be an excuse to show a photo of our horses. 

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I think araby-horse owning people generally don’t take too much offense. Mim does get called a llama a lot 🤣


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## Cortez (5 April 2022)

If you are considering an Akhal Teke you might want to talk to a couple of trainers with experience of the breed before committing. They're not the easiest....


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## LadyGascoyne (5 April 2022)

Cortez said:



			If you are considering an Akhal Teke you might want to talk to a couple of trainers with experience of the breed before committing. They're not the easiest....
		
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I have heard they can be very hot! With Mim’s cleverness it could be a very tricky combination.


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## stangs (5 April 2022)

LadyGascoyne said:



			I searched for some but there are very few that are not double dilute in the Uk. Unless maybe I’m searching badly?
		
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There's very few in the UK to begin with tbf. Off the top of my head, most of them are single dilutes though, with a minority having no dilution. But the double dilutes are the most popular for obvious reasons. I'll try find you the black Teke I used to be smitten with, though he might be a little hot for your needs.


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## Cortez (5 April 2022)

Hotter than a hot thing most of them, in my experience (which is limited to a couple of half-breds and one purebred stallion).


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## LadyGascoyne (5 April 2022)

Cortez said:



			Hotter than a hot thing most of them, in my experience (which is limited to a couple of half-breds and one purebred stallion).
		
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I think that rules it out then. Midget hot thing with Mimosa’s reasoning skills would be something terrifying to behold.


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## Pinkvboots (5 April 2022)

SilverLinings said:



			Sorry PvB, I feel like I've offended quite a few Arab owners on this thread- in mitigation I like all horses (they are horses so how could I not!), just prefer a certain look when I am buying. Am equally not drawn to heavy types (I don't have the hip abduction to ride them), but can appreciate what others see in them. I have possibly now offended even more owners, so will get my coat...!

I realise I can be a bit blunt, so hope I haven't actually offended anyone on this thread.
		
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Honestly you haven't offended me at all his not even classed as an extreme sea horse now compared to what they breed for the ring.

He has won many classic head classes years ago his quite dished but his got a very wide short head which I like, some modern ones have a weird bump on the forehead and they are far too dished even for my taste 😉


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## Pinkvboots (5 April 2022)

Both of my Arab's have Balaton as a grand sire I absolutely love him but his not around anymore I don't know if there is any frozen, I would definitely love to breed a foal from him another one I like is Kubinec both were very popular sires a long time ago.


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## Pinkvboots (5 April 2022)

Rusleem was lovely as well and Plumbum both lovely stallions both went to HOYS I think.


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## HashRouge (5 April 2022)

Marcus Aurelius's owners seem to have a rather smart young stallion called Audace Encore (by Marcus Aurelius) who is getting out and about doing some low level dressage at the moment. I wonder how tall he is? I think Phoenix Arabians have also got a rather nice chestnut ridden stallion, called Alonzo, and I think he is 15.3hh so definitely has the height!


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## LadyGascoyne (6 April 2022)

HashRouge said:



			Marcus Aurelius's owners seem to have a rather smart young stallion called Audace Encore (by Marcus Aurelius) who is getting out and about doing some low level dressage at the moment. I wonder how tall he is? I think Phoenix Arabians have also got a rather nice chestnut ridden stallion, called Alonzo, and I think he is 15.3hh so definitely has the height!
		
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Alonzo looks lovely


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## PurBee (6 April 2022)

Glebe farm arabians have Saudee 16hh black arab stallion, might have others large enough of interest?

Their website doesnt work for me, but found vids on youtube of saudee….240p quality though. They have a FB page.
 I know nothing of breeding but he looks fab. (Id want to check/get confirmed his height tho’, in one video with a gent he looked small compared to the guy, unless the guy is very tall! Are stud farms known to exaggerate height to attract breeders?)


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## Tiddlypom (6 April 2022)

PurBee said:



			Are stud farms known to exaggerate height to attract breeders?)
		
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I found out after I'd used him that the stallion I chose measured in at 15hh, not the 15.2hh that it stated on his stud card. He was an eventer who got nearly to advanced. It was a deliberate misrepresentation in order to attract more mares .


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## PurBee (6 April 2022)

Tiddlypom said:



			I found out after I'd used him that the stallion I chose measured in at 15hh, not the 15.2hh that it stated on his stud card. He was an eventer who got nearly to advanced. It was a deliberate misrepresentation in order to attract more mares .
		
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Ah, i did wonder. That’s terrible, considering the work/cost goes into choosing a good pair and raising a foal.
I’d want to see a stick against Saudee before committing, as 16hh pure arabs are fairly rare.

LG - There was a lady advertising her pb black arab stallion for stud here in Ireland (limerick) locally, but the advert from 600days ago i saved is no longer live. Nice head on him, not the overly dished type…think he was 15.2hh. A quick google hasnt yielded much but maybe a deeper dig might.

This is the main pic from the advert header, on the off chance anyone knows her/him!


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## Cortez (6 April 2022)

PurBee said:



			Ah, i did wonder. That’s terrible, considering the work/cost goes into choosing a good pair and raising a foal.
I’d want to see a stick against Saudee before committing, as 16hh pure arabs are fairly rare.

LG - There was a lady advertising her pb black arab stallion for stud here in Ireland (limerick) locally, but the advert from 600days ago i saved is no longer live. Nice head on him, not the overly dished type…think he was 15.2hh. A quick google hasnt yielded much but maybe a deeper dig might.

This is the main pic from the advert header, on the off chance anyone knows her/him!

View attachment 90241

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What earthly use to a breeder is a photo like this? I am presuming there are others that show what this stallion actually looks like.


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## KittenInTheTree (6 April 2022)

PurBee said:



			Ah, i did wonder. That’s terrible, considering the work/cost goes into choosing a good pair and raising a foal.
I’d want to see a stick against Saudee before committing, as 16hh pure arabs are fairly rare.

LG - There was a lady advertising her pb black arab stallion for stud here in Ireland (limerick) locally, but the advert from 600days ago i saved is no longer live. Nice head on him, not the overly dished type…think he was 15.2hh. A quick google hasnt yielded much but maybe a deeper dig might.

This is the main pic from the advert header, on the off chance anyone knows her/him!

View attachment 90241

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Is it The Alchemist, from HR Stud?

The only other arab stud that I know of in Ireland would be Bordwin Farm, but that's in County Laois.


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## PurBee (6 April 2022)

Cortez said:



			What earthly use to a breeder is a photo like this? I am presuming there are others that show what this stallion actually looks like.
		
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Yes, there were many other pics but now the advert has been pulled i cant access them, only the header photo from the ad.


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## PurBee (6 April 2022)

KittenInTheTree said:



			Is it The Alchemist, from HR Stud?

The only other arab stud that I know of in Ireland would be Bordwin Farm, but that's in County Laois.
		
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i think youre right -Alchemist -  thanks! That white back left foot.

14.3hh tho’..

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=267099697809615


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## KittenInTheTree (6 April 2022)

PurBee said:



			i think youre right -Alchemist -  thanks! That white back left foot.

14.3hh tho’..

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=267099697809615

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Yes, I'd have him on my list of possible sires if I were going to breed from Blossom, but I think LG is looking for something to add a bit of size?


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## Meowy Catkin (6 April 2022)

Zygmunt is in Ireland and 15.3hh according to all breed. https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/zygmunt

He's a bay Polish bred arab. 
http://www.bordwinarabianfarm.com/bordwinstallions.html

I've not seen him in the flesh but have heard good things. 

Maybe go to HOYS to watch the ridden arabs? They usually have some nice ridden stallions there. Silvern Prince and Adawy caught my eye but both smaller and grey.

Does anyone know how tall Patros Hb is?


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## HashRouge (6 April 2022)

Meowy Catkin said:



			Zygmunt is in Ireland and 15.3hh according to all breed. https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/zygmunt

He's a bay Polish bred arab.
http://www.bordwinarabianfarm.com/bordwinstallions.html

I've not seen him in the flesh but have heard good things.

Maybe go to HOYS to watch the ridden arabs? They usually have some nice ridden stallions there. Silvern Prince and Adawy caught my eye but both smaller and grey.

Does anyone know how tall Patros Hb is?
		
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That's where I came across Alonzo - he won the trophy for the highest rated stallion last year, and in 2019 too I think. The winner was a very smart grey gelding, Rafeekah, by a stallion called Designed, who is by Master Design. I think Designed might be in the Middle East, but Master Design has proven himself to be quite a handy sire and has some very nice progeny out there. I'm sure I read somewhere that he's been out with the local hunt himself! I've no idea if they still use him for breeding though, or how big he is, but he's one that would tempt me.


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## Meowy Catkin (6 April 2022)

Yes Master Design is a cracker. He's a carrier for CA though I think? Ok if the mare tests negative, but you don't want a positive foal.


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## LadyGascoyne (7 April 2022)

I like Zygmunt too, I think - difficult to find a conformation photo? 

Master Design and Master Blaster are both smaller, if I recall correctly. 

I’ll definitely look into Alonzo and Zygmunt. 

@Meowy Catkin HOYS is a fantastic idea, I’d love to do that.


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## Meowy Catkin (7 April 2022)

There's also the Arab national show. https://www.ahsshowsandevents.com/national-show


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## Pinkvboots (7 April 2022)

HashRouge said:



			That's where I came across Alonzo - he won the trophy for the highest rated stallion last year, and in 2019 too I think. The winner was a very smart grey gelding, Rafeekah, by a stallion called Designed, who is by Master Design. I think Designed might be in the Middle East, but Master Design has proven himself to be quite a handy sire and has some very nice progeny out there. I'm sure I read somewhere that he's been out with the local hunt himself! I've no idea if they still use him for breeding though, or how big he is, but he's one that would tempt me.
		
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I love Master Design as well and a lot of his stock is lovely I would think he has hunted the Jones are known for taking there Arab's hunting, there is a lovely picture of Rod's wife on him in her weddings dress.


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## Palindrome (7 April 2022)

He doesn't match your requirements but I really like Mukhtar Ibn Eternity and would choose him if I wanted to breed an arab or arab type in the UK.


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## Blanche (9 April 2022)

PurBee said:



			Glebe farm arabians have Saudee 16hh black arab stallion, might have others large enough of interest?

Their website doesnt work for me, but found vids on youtube of saudee….240p quality though. They have a FB page.
I know nothing of breeding but he looks fab. (Id want to check/get confirmed his height tho’, in one video with a gent he looked small compared to the guy, unless the guy is very tall! Are stud farms known to exaggerate height to attract breeders?)












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I think they moved to France with him a couple of years ago.


Sally Forster ( she is on here) from Groomsbridge Stud has a 7/8 tb called Icefyre. I think he is 16hh and apparently has a very sane temperament. Hope she doesn’t mind me putting a photo on here.


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## Clodagh (10 April 2022)

Blanche said:



			I think they moved to France with him a couple of years ago.


Sally Forster ( she is on here) from Groomsbridge Stud has a 7/8 tb called Icefyre. I think he is 16hh and apparently has a very sane temperament. Hope she doesn’t mind me putting a photo on here.

View attachment 90390

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He doesn’t really compare in any way to Mim!
But Groomsbridge do have a really nice small tb, Mildenburger, or even a bigger one in Universal. Sally Foster might have a suggestion for you, even a stallion she doesn’t stand. She’s very helpful.


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## Cortez (10 April 2022)

Blanche said:



			I think they moved to France with him a couple of years ago.


Sally Forster ( she is on here) from Groomsbridge Stud has a 7/8 tb called Icefyre. I think he is 16hh and apparently has a very sane temperament. Hope she doesn’t mind me putting a photo on here.

View attachment 90390

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Another ridiculous photograph, why cannot people use professional photographs showing conformation on stallion cards?


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## LadyGascoyne (10 April 2022)

This horse is lovely.

https://babolnamenes.hu/en/lovak/termekkategoria/pagur-2/


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## Clodagh (10 April 2022)

He is gorgeous. How big is he?


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## Pinkvboots (10 April 2022)

His really nice his 158cm quite tall for a pure bred.


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## Pinkvboots (11 April 2022)

One thing I will say is pure breds are not meant to be much over 15 hands really and although there are bigger ones being bred, I know of a few that have had nothing but soundness issues.

Louis is 15.3 and 17 now and his not without his problems his got navicular and hock arthritis his also injured a hind suspensory, so he has a fair bit going on but his relatively low mileage for his age and I am extremely careful with him.

In comparison to Arabi who is only just 15 hands and a year older his not got any major degenerative conditions really, he had a pedal bone fracture and was incredibly stiff after all the box rest but that is all fixable.


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## Flame_ (15 April 2022)

I haven't read the thread yet, just came via a mention in Tack Room. I want something by this stallion one day, he's lots of bloodlines the same as my old horse and I think he looks splendid!

https://northernarabian.co.uk/stallions-at-stud-2019

ETA, haha, catching up, he's already popular! Good, he'll have lots of offspring by the time I'm after one.


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## TheMule (15 April 2022)

Cortez said:



			Another ridiculous photograph, why cannot people use professional photographs showing conformation on stallion cards?
		
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That's just a random photo taken off their Facebook page, not off a stallion card to be fair


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## Flame_ (15 April 2022)

LadyGascoyne said:



@The Fuzzy Furry  I love shagyas, I remember the the posts but not the name I
		
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My friend has a shagya mare. I think she was from Bolton, and was in a fire. Gorgeous mare and as tough and useful as you can get. I think where she came from was a stud but I've no idea if they're still operating.


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