# House Training - caught in the act



## Fools Motto (21 September 2015)

Rosie puppy and house training isn't going so great! She just doesn't seem to understand that the kitchen floor isn't the place to 'go'. She goes out very regularly, and performs, and constantly gets praised for those actions. But, in the house, if you are not watching ALL the time, she (owing to very soft pads) does her stealth walking about (you don't know she has got up, she makes no sound) she makes no effort to go near the back door - its often left open, she makes no effort to whine, or look like she needs to go, and she could have just gone a mere few minutes before outside, she'll just randomly go again - inside!

Anyway, we caught her, in the act of going, and not only growled, but smacked her bum, and put her out. Now, for the first time, she seems guilty. I don't even know if this is the right thing, or it is a step in the right direction? Any pointers would be good. I've never had one so stealth like!


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## Love_my_Lurcher (22 September 2015)

My Mum and I had some trouble toilet training our Greyhound and we got really good tips from here. I will pass some of them on. First of all, do not punish her when you catch her. This will make her even more likely to go in the house when you aren't looking. She will fear the punishment and will seek a way to do it when you're not around. Secondly, keep the back door closed as often as possible. When the back door is left open for longer periods of time it can blur the boundaries between outside and indoors. And lastly. Try and teach her a command for going. The command we taught was 'get busy', but you can come up with whatever command you like. Repeat it over and over when you take her out and keep up with the praise when she does the right thing.

I hope this helps and good luck!


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## SusieT (22 September 2015)

bad idea- and won't help. 
Don't let her have the run of the house- she shouldn't be able to get to back door or another room without you taking her. Otherwise she will not realise why she should go out.
Do you hit your children when they don't make the toilet? Negative physical re inforcement has been proven time and time again to not do any good. What's done is done but restrain yourself to a growl. the 'guilty' dog look is the 'scared' dog look in reality.


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## Sandstone1 (22 September 2015)

Don't hit her. Poor pup.
Close the door. Take her out every time she's fed, every time she wakes up and after she's been playing.
Use a command such as busy. When she goes in the right place say your command and loads of praise and a little treat.
She's not guilty she's picking up your body language.
Watch her as much as possible and get her out at the first sign of needing to go.
It is very time consuming but it will pay off.
Also make sure you clean up her accidents very well as if she can smell where she's been before it will encourage her to go then too.


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## TGM (22 September 2015)

It is worth considering using a crate for those times you can't keep a constant eye on her, until she gets a better idea of where she has to 'go'.  Will prevent the 'stealth walking' occurring.  I'm not suggesting leaving her in there all the time, in case someone gets the wrong idea, but just those occasions when you are otherwise occupied.  Also she should have her naps in the crate, then she can't wake up unnoticed and wander off for an indoor wee.  Instead, when you realise she is awake, you can whip her straight out and into the garden.  If you do it correctly you shouldn't need to use the crate for very long at all.


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## Possum (22 September 2015)

Our girl sounds very similar. I'd always put it down to the fact that we found her as a stray at about 6 months so she was practically feral, but she has never whined or shown any inclination of 'asking' to go out - if the door wasn't open she'd just go on the floor.

It just took longer, you will need to carry on being super-vigilant, take her out ridiculously frequently and clean any accidents thoroughly so there's no residual scent marking. Keep her where you can see her, and if that's not possible then crate.  We crated overnight and she didn't mess her crate. She was probably 18 months before I could really trust her not to just wee on the floor (particularly at friend's houses ) and even now if it's raining I've got to growl at her to make her finish her business outside else she'll trot back inside and poo on the carpet!


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## twiggy2 (22 September 2015)

She wont look guilty (dogs don't do guilt) she will be looking scared (of you due to an outburst she does not understand), if a dog toilets in the house it is down to the owner not teaching the dog where is correct to go and where is not. You need to be aware of where your dog is at all times and what she is doing.
It can take a lot of time and a lot of repetition-on your last post I thing the general thought was scolding or scaring the dog whilst in the act will just make her secretive about going, very bad place to get to.
You cannot have a dog that is not clean in the house loose and unsupervised if you want to house train it.


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## Sandstone1 (22 September 2015)

twiggy2 said:



			She wont look guilty (dogs don't do guilt) she will be looking scared (of you due to an outburst she does not understand), if a dog toilets in the house it is down to the owner not teaching the dog where is correct to go and where is not. You need to be aware of where your dog is at all times and what she is doing.
It can take a lot of time and a lot of repetition-on your last post I thing the general thought was scolding or scaring the dog whilst in the act will just make her secretive about going, very bad place to get to.
You cannot have a dog that is not clean in the house loose and unsupervised if you want to house train it.
		
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This is very true. You need to take the time and effort in taking her out very often, praise and give your command when ever she goes outside. NO PUNISHMENT if she gets it wrong, just take her out and show her the right place to go. Don't get angry with her. It will take time and patience but if you put the effort in it will work. Don't hit her!!
You would not hit a toddler when potty training.


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## twiggy2 (22 September 2015)

I wanted to add all dogs give indicators that they need to toilet (circling/sniffing or similar) but scaring or scolding her you will stop her exibiting these signs and it makes your job much harder.
I suggest you smack each other each time you and your husband/partner are not attentive enough to prevent another accident.
Non of my dogs have ever whined at a door to go out to toilet, my lurcher used to just sit in front of me and stare (not helpful if you have fallen asleep on the sofa), my little white dog used to go and stare at the door handle (cos they just open if you wish it enough) and the little black dog used to just go if he needed to (he was clean 98% of the time after the age of 2yrs (he was the dog that had previously been scolded for toiletting in the wrong place so he just hid away to do it), he always used to run away from a poo when he had done it-poor dog always thought he would be scolded for pooing, it made no difference if it was indoors or out.


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## twiggy2 (22 September 2015)

just read your other post,
Is this the pup that is left from mid morning till 5pm on work days at only 13 weeks old?
If it is then are you expecting her to house train herself?
I really think the best thing for Rosie is to rehome her if noone wants to put any time into training her/being with her and then you are going to smack her when she gets it wrong.


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## gunnergundog (22 September 2015)

Crate train her for when you're not in the house.
If you're in the house but can't pay attention to her as you are doing something else, get a length of rope and tie her to your waist such that she will always be in your vicinity and you will be aware of any movement indicating she wants to go out.
As said above dogs do give indication of when they need to go so you're obviously not spotting them.  Try to be pre-emptive and take her out every hour; after every feed, every sleep, every drink, every play.  Make much of her!
Slapping is a really good idea!  That is so long as it is yourself you are slapping for having missed the signs that she needs to go out!


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## Sandstone1 (22 September 2015)

twiggy2 said:



			just read your other post,
Is this the pup that is left from mid morning till 5pm on work days at only 13 weeks old?
If it is then are you expecting her to house train herself?
I really think the best thing for Rosie is to rehome her if noone wants to put any time into training her/being with her and then you are going to smack her when she gets it wrong.
		
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I really hope this is not the case. How on earth do you expect this pup to be house trained?
A pup of this age needs to get out every couple of hours at least.
You will never get her clean if she's left for this amount of time. What do you expect the poor thing to do?
I'm sorry but it's just not fair.


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## MurphysMinder (22 September 2015)

Fools Motto, I am beginning to think you are posting just to wind people up.  You asked for advice re getting this pup and then ignored it, and have since done nothing but complain about poor pup.  If you won't rehome as previously suggested then please contact CAYLA and ask for a copy of her puppy training guide . I feel so sorry for this pup


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## Alec Swan (22 September 2015)

SusieT said:



			bad idea- and won't help. 
Don't let her have the run of the house- she shouldn't be able to get to back door or another room without you taking her. Otherwise she will not realise why she should go out.
Do you hit your children when they don't make the toilet? Negative physical re inforcement has been proven time and time again to not do any good. What's done is done but restrain yourself to a growl. the 'guilty' dog look is the 'scared' dog look in reality.
		
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For once,  just this once p) I agree wholeheartedly with this poster.  I'm also wondering Fools Motto,  exactly what it is that you expect from a puppy which may well be giving you 'indicators',  but signs which you fail to recognise.

Alec.


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## Bellasophia (22 September 2015)

MurphysMinder said:



			Fools Motto, I am beginning to think you are posting just to wind people up.  You asked for advice re getting this pup and then ignored it, and have since done nothing but complain about poor pup.  If you won't rehome as previously suggested then please contact CAYLA and ask for a copy of her puppy training guide . I feel so sorry for this pup 

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Ditto....in fact I've stopped replying to her posts as she doesn't follow any advice and delights in creating a stir. Attention seeking imo.
It's the pup I feel sorry for...and yes it is being left too long without constructive input. Furthermore,this unhappy scenario will only go from bad to worse as the pup goes into adolescence.


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## RunToEarth (22 September 2015)

MurphysMinder said:



			Fools Motto, I am beginning to think you are posting just to wind people up.  You asked for advice re getting this pup and then ignored it, and have since done nothing but complain about poor pup.  If you won't rehome as previously suggested then please contact CAYLA and ask for a copy of her puppy training guide . I feel so sorry for this pup 

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I agree. I just can't think anyone would go out and buy a puppy without knowing anything about basic house training, breed traits, even how long they should be left at home. 

It really infuriates me, because ESS's are such willing, good natured dogs and the poor pup doesn't deserve this. Rehome her please for everyone's sake, there are several people on here who would take her off of your hands.


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## Bellasophia (22 September 2015)

Run to earth ....the pup was free gift from her sisters home bred litter...hub wanted it,she didn't....now the hubs lost interest so the pup is paying the price.


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## RunToEarth (22 September 2015)

Bellasophia said:



			Run to earth ....the pup was free gift from her sisters home bred litter...hub wanted it,she didn't....now the hubs lost interest so the pup is paying the price.
		
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OP - it breaks my heart, because I love my dogs SO SO much, I can't possibly understand why you would be so unkind to a 13week old puppy, I can't possibly understand why she isn't the centre of your universe, and if she isn't at this cute stage of her life, I dread to think what is in store for her later on down the line. 

Please let me know if you are rehoming her, I would buy her just to give her a job and a purpose.


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## Alec Swan (22 September 2015)

RunToEarth said:



  

&#8230;&#8230;.., I dread to think what is in store for her later on down the line. 

&#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
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With luck,  a degree of tolerance,  then understanding,  and THEN discipline.  In a previous thread the OP came across as being able and willing to take over when the OH had predictably lost interest.  That may yet happen.  

OP,  the best few words of advice that I've ever been offered regarding dogs is 'Think like a dog'.  I'd add to that,  'Consider that your puppy doesn't speak or understand English,  at least not until you teach her'.  Lessons for both humans and dogs are very rarely 'light-bulb' moments! 

Alec.


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## Thistle (22 September 2015)

The best way to house train a puppy is to get a rolled up newspaper and then smack yourself hard with it every time the pup messes in the house. The pup will go when it needs to, it's up to you to take it out regularly and to watch the pup and read the signs. Not the pups fault you aren't reading the signs.

If you don't want/like the pup rehome it whilst it's still trainable. An untrained adolescent springer will be an absolute nightmare.


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## Clodagh (22 September 2015)

I feel sorry for OP as she didn't want this dog in the first place and has been landed with it.
On the other hand, why post when she must know the responses she will get? Odd.
I can't bear Boxers as a breed (for instance) but I don't think I could dislike a boxer pup, although I do see it would perhaps make me less tolerant.


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## Fools Motto (22 September 2015)

Hold on guys... 
Lets set a few things straight.
Firstly, I admit, I didn't want a puppy (of any breed) at this time of my life. I've JUST started a wonderful new job, and wanted that to be my full attention.
Secondly, also admiting, springer spaniels are just not 'my breed'. Of course they are lovely, cute, soft ect.. but their busy mannerisms, just don't ''do it'' for me. Sorry. (I'm a whippet fan).
Rosie IS part of the family, I care for her very much. I however, don't love her. Doesn't mean she doesn't get love, she gets more than you'd know thanks to OH! 'My' dog, a whippet X is MY love. Just the way it is.

Right, moving on... Rosie is left for 2 hours in the morning, while we both go to work. OH comes home and 'entertains' her for upto an hour. She is then left again for another 2 hours before my mother and then the children come home, where she isn't left again til the following morning as both OH and I return approx 5. I think this is acceptable?

House training....
Rosie has been doing very well. She understands the command 'wee-wees' and performs in the RIGHT place outside. She duly poos out on walks too. BUT, often in the evenings, when she has been walked, regular trips into the garden and much attention spent on her, she will just wonder around the kitchen and with NO warning, just crouch and wee - this is where I wanted advice.. how to tell her off as we caught her in the act of going.

I told my dog off when she was a pup, in the same way when I caught her in the act - 11 years ago, and she didn't mess in the house again - as implying that system worked. I appreciate time changes methods, hence why I asked.
I do, and have taken on much advice, but equally decide how some advice won't work for me (us). I thank you all for everything, and understand peoples concerns. My situation may not have been totally clear to all. Rosie IS a lovely pup, she IS in a happy home.


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## Amymay (22 September 2015)

https://positively.com/dog-training/myths-truths/humane-discipline/

But surely the 'warning' is her getting up and wandering in to and around the kitchen. You simply follow her and take her out.......


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## Fools Motto (22 September 2015)

amymay said:



https://positively.com/dog-training/myths-truths/humane-discipline/

But surely the 'warning' is her getting up and wandering in to thekitchen. You simply follow her and take her out.......
		
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We're with her! OH has often just been giving her some TLC, training, cuddles she could have just come in from 'wee-wees'. We DO allow them to walk around the kitchen, getting a drink or coming to see us (office is at the end of the (small) kitchen. Being a spaniel, she isn't very still for very long!


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## RunToEarth (22 September 2015)

Fools Motto said:



			she will just wonder around the kitchen and with NO warning, just crouch and wee - this is where I wanted advice.. how to tell her off as we caught her in the act of going.

I told my dog off when she was a pup, in the same way when I caught her in the act - 11 years ago, and she didn't mess in the house again - as implying that system worked. I appreciate time changes methods, hence why I asked.
]
		
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She is a young puppy. She should not be shouted at, told off, smacked when she messes inside. You need to praise her when she goes outside - my code name was "wee wees" and outside wees were rewarded. Inside wees were completely ignored, she needs to go out every half an hour at least as a puppy, and when she does outside wees, reward it with a praising "wee wees" and a pet on a little treat. Puppies wonder when they are looking for wee places, so that is your que to shout "wee wees" and usher her outside. 

House training is hard but shouting and smacking is only going to make things worse.


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## Fools Motto (22 September 2015)

RunToEarth said:



			She is a young puppy. She should not be shouted at, told off, smacked when she messes inside. You need to praise her when she goes outside - my code name was "wee wees" and outside wees were rewarded. Inside wees were completely ignored, she needs to go out every half an hour at least as a puppy, and when she does outside wees, reward it with a praising "wee wees" and a pet on a little treat. Puppies wonder when they are looking for wee places, so that is your que to shout "wee wees" and usher her outside. 

House training is hard but shouting and smacking is only going to make things worse.
		
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I think the problem I'm having here now then is the fact that she is a very active breed, and is always wandering about (when OH is here! - another issue, as its easier without him, accidents happen when he is here!!!)... So.... if the wandering stops, then the 'sudden crouching' should do too??


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## Alec Swan (22 September 2015)

Fools Motto said:



			Hold on guys... 
Lets set a few things straight.

&#8230;&#8230;..






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I'll say it again;  You have a cracking pup there.  You have eye contact and you have focus,  for now.  'For now' means just that,  and not for always.  The attention that puppies give us can be flattering,  but it flatters to deceive!  I understand that this pup has been rather 'wished' on you,  and I also understand that whilst under duress you're certainly able to take on the responsibility (now that the OH's apparent novelty's warn off),  and there's no doubt that you will end up with a very smart little dog.

Though I may be quite wrong in this,  I do wonder if you may be jumping the gun,  and expecting too much from a puppy which is still but a few weeks old.  Expecting her to have grasped the understanding of being house-clean,  and without your support and help,  is perhaps asking too much.  The length of time that a puppy will stay clean,  during a day,  needs gradual extension,  not expecting her to,  from the outset,  grasp the idea that she must be clean.  No dog is EVER clean for us,  they're clean for themselves.  Allow her to be so by recognising that her wandering about is an indication that she wants to go out,  and you've cracked it.  Two days,  maximum!  Easy-peasy! 

Alec.


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## Amymay (22 September 2015)

RunToEarth said:



			Inside wees were completely ignored, 

House training is hard but shouting and smacking is only going to make things worse.
		
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Yes, we were the same. Completely ignored any accidents in the house, and praised when done outside. I still do on ocassion...

Anyway op, my dog was about 8 months old before I can say hand on heart she was 100% fully house trained. That might be late, I don't know. But I never raised my voice at her, let alone my hand.

Bottom line is, you have a puppy, it's a work in progress, and accidents happen. Don't sweat it.


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## Alec Swan (22 September 2015)

Fools Motto said:



			&#8230;&#8230;. ... So.... if the wandering stops, then the 'sudden crouching' should do too??
		
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The 'wandering' is an indication that she needs to go out. That's what puppies do,  whippets included.

Alec.


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## Fools Motto (22 September 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			I'll say it again;  You have a cracking pup there.  You have eye contact and you have focus,  for now.  'For now' means just that,  and not for always.  The attention that puppies give us can be flattering,  but it flatters to deceive!  I understand that this pup has been rather 'wished' on you,  and I also understand that whilst under duress you're certainly able to take on the responsibility (now that the OH's apparent novelty's warn off),  and there's no doubt that you will end up with a very smart little dog.

Though I may be quite wrong in this,  I do wonder if you may be jumping the gun,  and expecting too much from a puppy which is still but a few weeks old.  Expecting her to have grasped the understanding of being house-clean,  and without your support and help,  is perhaps asking too much.  The length of time that a puppy will stay clean,  during a day,  needs gradual extension,  not expecting her to,  from the outset,  grasp the idea that she must be clean.  No dog is EVER clean for us,  they're clean for themselves.  Allow her to be so by recognising that her wandering about is an indication that she wants to go out,  and you've cracked it.  Two days,  maximum!  Easy-peasy! 

Alec.
		
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Thanks Alec for the 'lovely pup' quote. (I DO agree, promise!).. she would rather wander about, than be still... so thats the problem I'AM having with her, the breed. Obviously active. NOT what I'm used to! She is 13 weeks, we WILL get there. She usually does one wee over night, (perhaps the odd poo, but not consistantly) then one wee before OH comes home after 2 hours,  and she has been clean and dry there after for my mum (who I'm paying to come over) and then usually one wee in the evenings, her 'stealth time!'. This is clearly the time we can 'catch her in the act' rather than any of the other times. Obviously also get used to 'reading' her signs, but at the moment, we're speaking different languages.


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## Alec Swan (22 September 2015)

Fools Motto said:



			&#8230;&#8230;.. , but at the moment, we're speaking different languages.
		
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And the only one who understands English,  at the moment,  is you.  At 13 weeks I suspect that you may have skipped over the vital days of initial contact,  at least, that's how it seems to me.  

When things go wrong with dogs,  then we return to the start,  and we start again.  I would expect a 13 week old pup to be clean,  at least overnight.  Were the pup dirty in the evening,  and whilst in my company,  then I'd be looking at myself.

I've never ever had a house living dog which has been dirty indoors,  beyond the 4-5 day period,  and most within 2 days.  Is it you,  or is it the puppy,  do you suppose?  Not having a dig,  just pointing out facts.

Alec.


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## Amymay (22 September 2015)

So within 4-5 days of getting a (say) 10 week old pup, Alec, you've completely house trained them?


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## Cinnamontoast (22 September 2015)

RunToEarth said:



			She is a young puppy. She should not be shouted at, told off, smacked when she messes inside. You need to praise her when she goes outside - my code name was "wee wees" and outside wees were rewarded. Inside wees were completely ignored, she needs to go out every half an hour at least as a puppy, and when she does outside wees, reward it with a praising "wee wees" and a pet on a little treat. Puppies wonder when they are looking for wee places, so that is your que to shout "wee wees" and usher her outside. 

House training is hard but shouting and smacking is only going to make things worse.
		
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All of this. Frightening her by smacking her will make her worse and will encourage her to hide accidents. She's a BABY. It's not her fault, it's yours. Don't let her be so active, confine her by using a crate, you will probably need to make her rest, I did with mine. Stick her in a crate and move the crate as needed so she's not alone. Alternatively, if the weather is ok, leave the back door open so she can come and go as she pleases. 

The best thing my parents in law ever did for us was dog sit brand new puppies for two days (sourced a lot quicker than we'd expected). They were experienced springer owners and put the pups in the corridor overnight rather than let them have the run of the kitchen. They were toilet trained when we got back. The others were crate trained and a smaller space helps. We did the same with my bil's springer last year when he couldn't take him for two weeks. He was crate and toilet trained when he went home.


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## Alec Swan (22 September 2015)

amymay said:



			So within 4-5 days of getting a (say) 10 week old pup, Alec, you've completely house trained them?
		
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Yes.  OK so the odd slip up,  every other day perhaps,  but even then,  after about a week,  that's it.  Ok,  and just to give this a bit of balance,  there was Nan,  a lurcher bitch.  I didn't get her until she was 16 weeks,  and after an hour outside,  she'd come straight back in the house and dump on the floor and she was still filthy at 12 months (I persevered!).  She went to live in my workshop.  There will be the odd dog which has no sense of cleanliness,  but generally,  most dogs actually want to be clean,  and will be,  given the opportunity.

Alec.


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## Fools Motto (22 September 2015)

This is our current set up.They are contained in a small room, about 6ft x 14ft together. Rosie is in her crate, but the door is open at night, but I'm starting to convince OH to close it, so slowly during the time we are here, it will be closed. Think we're about the 30-40 min mark before we let her out and go outside.


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## Alec Swan (22 September 2015)

Is the puppy in a cage and in a separate room form you in the evenings,  and when you're at home?

Alec.


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## Fools Motto (22 September 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			Is the puppy in a cage and in a separate room form you in the evenings,  and when you're at home?

Alec.
		
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No, I'm at my desk, just to the left of the lurcher!


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## Clodagh (23 September 2015)

amymay said:



			So within 4-5 days of getting a (say) 10 week old pup, Alec, you've completely house trained them?
		
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I would expect that too, with something easy like a lab. Ours go out every 30 minutes (20 for the first week!) and we watch them like hawks. I wouldn't expect therm not to need watching after 5 days but I don't expect to be doing any cleaning up. If we get an accident after that is is usually if they are playing and it comes out mid gallop!
Ours sleep in a crate overnight and are left all night from the first night and last two have both been clean from scratch, left for 7 hours. 
My lurcher was the hardest as she was 2 years old, I did smack her once in the end and it worked.

FM - as she is 'allowed' to pee/poo in the house when left then she doesn't seperate it as clearly in her mind, IMO. Ours are quick because we aim to have NO wees or poos in the house, ever, so there is no demarkation line. We are also lucky that we don't have to leave them alone for long from as soon as they come home.


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## Clodagh (23 September 2015)

We also had border terrier pups and they were a nightmare to housetrain - took over 6 months - never again!


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## ycbm (23 September 2015)

Clodagh said:



			My lurcher was the hardest as she was 2 years old, I did smack her once in the end and it worked.
		
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I've been reading this thread with interest, seeing all the dire warnings about how you can't house train puppies by getting cross or punishing them.

I completely understand that things have moved on and there are other effective ways of training puppies. But fifty years ago, everyone I know trained puppies by 'rubbing their noses in it' (not usually literally) and telling them off, and sometimes smacking them. It was the accepted way of house training a puppy.  My parents trained two pups that way and they were quickly clean dogs. All my friends and family trained their dogs that way and I don't remember anyone with a dirty dog. It certainly does work, so why is it now the belief that it doesn't?


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## planete (23 September 2015)

ycbm said:



			I've been reading this thread with interest, seeing all the dire warnings about how you can't house train puppies by getting cross or punishing them.

I completely understand that things have moved on and there are other effective ways of training puppies. But fifty years ago, everyone I know trained puppies by 'rubbing their noses in it' (not usually literally) and telling them off, and sometimes smacking them. It was the accepted way of house training a puppy.  My parents trained two pups that way and they were quickly clean dogs. All my friends and family trained their dogs that way and I don't remember anyone with a dirty dog. It certainly does work, so why is it now the belief that it doesn't?
		
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I beg to differ!  Not everybody did it that way, I still remember pups I had forty-five years ago and I never chastised pups physically.  Older dogs who should know better, occasionally yes, like my GSD thinking she could help herself to the hens' eggs.


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## Clodagh (23 September 2015)

I absolutely agree with you ycbm. I think nowadays though I would expect you to show a dog the right way, and give it a chance to do the right thing, and then smack it if it persists in doing the wrong thing. We used to smack pups when I was young, but nowadays and looking back I don't think it got anyone anywhere quicker than the kind option.
Overall training I rarely tell a dog off but my young lab would not sit and stay the other day, we were dogging in and I needed her to wait while I climbed through a ditch, she moved twice and the second time I scruffed her. Worked a treat!


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## RunToEarth (23 September 2015)

ycbm said:



			I've been reading this thread with interest, seeing all the dire warnings about how you can't house train puppies by getting cross or punishing them.

I completely understand that things have moved on and there are other effective ways of training puppies. But fifty years ago, everyone I know trained puppies by 'rubbing their noses in it' (not usually literally) and telling them off, and sometimes smacking them. It was the accepted way of house training a puppy.  My parents trained two pups that way and they were quickly clean dogs. All my friends and family trained their dogs that way and I don't remember anyone with a dirty dog. It certainly does work, so why is it now the belief that it doesn't?
		
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Because if you can effectively house training them without shouting, smacking and rubbing their noses in it, why on earth would you choose not to? 

My dogs are working dogs, I want them to trust me from being young puppies, to actually WANT to be around me - that is the basis for any kind of training, IMO. 

Yelling at them for reasons they will not understand as a young puppy will not instil any trust in me, it just encourages puppies not to mess around me, which makes training a lot harder, because then they won't go when I'm with them outside, walking etc.


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## MrsElle (23 September 2015)

I haven't read all the comments, but I also have an ESS pup.  He is coming up to ten weeks old, and is very intelligent, which is both a blessing and a curse!

He always comes as soon as I call him (for now!) and sits when asked.  He is, however, nowhere near house trained, and I wouldn't expect him to be for several weeks at least.  If he wee's or poo's in the house we ignore it.  It is totally our fault for not keeping an eye on him, and you do need eyes in the back of your head!  I take him out when he wakes, when he has been playing for a while, and sometimes just because I think he might need to go.  We still have accidents though.  He is caged at night, and either in his cage or outdoor kennel when we are out or busy in the day.

I can't imagine why someone would expect a 13 week old to be 100% clean and dry.


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## ycbm (23 September 2015)

I did not say everyone, planete,, I said everyone I knew. Clearly, I didn't know you 

I did not say anyone would want to, Run to Earth, in  fact I made it clear that I understood why they would not. I commented on why people were saying that it would not work when it does.


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## Harleygirl (23 September 2015)

ycbm said:



			I've been reading this thread with interest, seeing all the dire warnings about how you can't house train puppies by getting cross or punishing them.

I completely understand that things have moved on and there are other effective ways of training puppies. But fifty years ago, everyone I know trained puppies by 'rubbing their noses in it' (not usually literally) and telling them off, and sometimes smacking them. It was the accepted way of house training a puppy.  My parents trained two pups that way and they were quickly clean dogs. All my friends and family trained their dogs that way and I don't remember anyone with a dirty dog. It certainly does work, so why is it now the belief that it doesn't?
		
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Puppies are essentially like toddlers. If you had a 2 year old that you were potty training and they peed on the floor would you smack them and push their nose in it? Because that's essentially what you're doing to a puppy. People aren't saying that smacking them, yelling at them, and pushing their face into poo/wee will create a dirty dog. It may hurt them mentally instead. I've heard of dogs who were punished for toiletting indoors and subsequently began eating their own poo as quickly as possible afterwards to avoid leaving traces of the mess and being punished for it so in the long run you can do a lot of damage.

OP - I think your problem is that the lines are being blurred. Your pup clearly can't hold it for 2 hours so poos/wees inside. Unless you're cleaning the area with biological cleaners, she can smell her wee on the floor and now thinks that's where she should go. You also clearly need to get up at night to take her outside to toilet. If you set 1-2 alarms, get up and take her out then eventually you can push back the times until it's 1 time out in the night and eventually holding it all night. Her bladder and bowel are tiny at this point, she physically can't hold it, and because she toilets indoors when you're not there in her mind unless she's outside with you she's allowed to go inside.


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## ycbm (23 September 2015)

Puppies, in respect of toilet training, are nothing like toddlers. Toddlers do not mark their territory by urinating and defecating, and dogs do. Toddlers are being trained to go from a state of being unable to control when and where they urinate and defecate, to recognition and control of those functions. Puppies have control but have to be taught where is appropriate, otherwise they would wear nappies like babies do.  Lots of dogs eat dog poo, it's a problem that is often discussed on this forum.  

Why are so many people so determined to believe that methods that were recommended at the time did not work when they did?  I can't remember a single poo eating, house soiling dog from my childhood and every dog I knew had been house trained the same way. Two of our own, dozens belonging to friends and family.

I'll repeat, I am NOT  suggesting that it was better, just that it worked, contrary to what is being said on  this thread.


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## Tiddlypom (23 September 2015)

50+ years ago my parents always house trained our pups the same way as ycbm describes, with noses rubbed into 'accidents'. All the pups (usually golden retrievers) were house trained quickly and easily, and definitely weren't screwed up mentally. It was simply how it was commonly done at that time.

Would I house train a pup like that now? No. I would follow more humane methods, things have moved on.


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## TGM (23 September 2015)

amymay said:



			So within 4-5 days of getting a (say) 10 week old pup, Alec, you've completely house trained them?
		
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When we got our pup (she was 7 weeks then), she was completely house-trained (day and night) within a fortnight.  And she has continued that way (bar one accident when she had an upset tum and we were out) - she is ten now.  Much of it is timing and observation, and the more time and attention you can give them in the first week or so, the more you can guarantee they will do their business outdoors and stay in the habit of doing so.  The more they get in the habit of going indoors, the more likely they are to repeat it.


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## Amymay (23 September 2015)

I'm truly gobsmacked. 

Daisy was clean within a month of us getting her (12 weeks), but would have the odd accident (and I was very vigilant). She was 8 months old before I was able to stop watching her like a hawk though.

She never messed overnight,  because I'd set alarms to take her out.


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## Love_my_Lurcher (23 September 2015)

I find it quite disturbing that there are some on here advocating physical punishment. Why don't you try learning a new craft and I will smack you every time you do something wrong!


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## madmav (23 September 2015)

Do think some are harder to sort than others. Our schkipperke was a nightmare for peeing in the kitchen late at night, no matter how late I walked him or took him into garden, until about two years old. 
Since then, he has been a saint. Now, he is ancient and I think a bit demented. He is still generally good as gold, but did forget the other night and cocked his leg in the kitchen just where he used to do it as a youngster - despite fact I had taken him out just five minutes before.


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## Alec Swan (23 September 2015)

There's no question that as with all aspects of canines,  some pick up the need to be clean almost immediately (most in my experience),  some take some while for the penny to drop,  and then there are those which are never clean,  don't understand the need to be clean or the displeasure that it causes.  Once a puppy understands what the backdoor's for then any blatant and witnessed peeing on the floor,  earns a growl and one that I mean.

One thing that I did learn years ago when puppies are left overnight,  and generally in the kitchen,  is when I come down stairs,  in total silence and without saying a word to the pup,  I open the door for them to go out.  Greeting the pup in the morning generally has them peeing with delight.  Counterproductive!  When I lived alone,  then new house living pups generally spent the first few nights on my bed with me,  and then as soon as I woke (or more likely they woke me),  I'd pick them up and straight outside.  Mostly,  that's how it works for me,  but there really are no hard and fast rules.

Alec.


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## TGM (23 September 2015)

amymay said:



			I'm truly gobsmacked. 

Daisy was clean within a month of us getting her (12 weeks), but would have the odd accident (and I was very vigilant). She was 8 months old before I was able to stop watching her like a hawk though.

She never messed overnight,  because I'd set alarms to take her out.
		
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Did you crate, Amymay?  I must confess it was the first time I'd used one and I was a little dubious, but it was recommended by the breeder of our pup, who is also an experienced animal trainer.  I had initially a little portable plastic crate (which I could move to various locations in the house so pup didn't feel isolated), and then a bigger standard metal one.  Pup was crated overnight and would have a late night session in the garden.  OH was always up very early for work so would let her out then, and then return her to the crate until I got up an hour later.  During the day, she would be put out in the garden immediately after a feed or a nap, when they are likely to wee.  If I couldn't watch her like a hawk (so when working on the computer, or making dinner or suchlike) I would pop her in the crate for a while, and immediately after taking her out would pop her in the garden. 

Because this is the first one I crated, I'm not sure whether I was incredibly lucky and she was genetically easy to housetrain, or whether the crating system (used correctly) made the difference.


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## ycbm (23 September 2015)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			I find it quite disturbing that there are some on here advocating physical punishment. Why don't you try learning a new craft and I will smack you every time you do something wrong!
		
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I haven't seen anyone on this thread advocating physical punishment.


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## MotherOfChickens (23 September 2015)

my setter only ever peed once in the house when a pup and that was the first day we had him. Due to a house move being set back a month, he spent the first month with us in a flat so house training involved stairs. He's only ever pooped in the house when he's been poorly and we've not woken up/he's not managed to wake us in time.
I don't _expect_ a dog to be 100% clean for up to a year but judicial use of a crate, being attentive and setting the pup up for success (by not leaving them too long).


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## Clodagh (23 September 2015)

ycbm said:



			I haven't seen anyone on this thread advocating physical punishment.
		
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Same.


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## Amymay (23 September 2015)

TGM said:



			Did you crate, Amymay?
		
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No, thought about it, but that was about it. I can understand the benefits, but didn't want to go down that particular route.

I've since heard that Bichon's can be difficult to get totally clean in the house - who knows.  I think the later accidents were simply down to me taking my eye off the ball occasionally.


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## Cinnamontoast (23 September 2015)

Alec Swan said:



			There's no question that as with all aspects of canines,  some pick up the need to be clean almost immediately (most in my experience),  some take some while for the penny to drop,  and then there are those which are never clean,  don't understand the need to be clean or the displeasure that it causes.  Once a puppy understands what the backdoor's for then any blatant and witnessed peeing on the floor,  earns a growl and one that I mean.

One thing that I did learn years ago when puppies are left overnight,  and generally in the kitchen,  is when I come down stairs,  in total silence and without saying a word to the pup,  I open the door for them to go out.  Greeting the pup in the morning generally has them peeing with delight.  Counterproductive!  When I lived alone,  then new house living pups generally spent the first few nights on my bed with me,  and then as soon as I woke (or more likely they woke me),  I'd pick them up and straight outside.  Mostly,  that's how it works for me,  but there really are no hard and fast rules.

Alec.
		
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Ignoring them as you walk in and getting guests to do the same was a great thing we did. It meant I wasn't wading through two excitable puppies and they don't do the jumping up thing, although one has an odd habit of 'springing' up to head height sometimes! Straight to the door and out does help with training, no touch, no talk, no eye contact to quote he who shall not be an,ed.

I confess I used to pop bil's pup in bed between me and the OH every morning after his 4am wee, rather than put him back in his cage. It stopped him whinging and let me sleep. :redface3:


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## RunToEarth (23 September 2015)

ycbm said:



			I'll repeat, I am NOT  suggesting that it was better, just that it worked, contrary to what is being said on  this thread.
		
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I will respond because I am one who stated that smacking puppies wouldn't work. 

I wasn't exclusively talking about house training, more training in general. ESS are a working breed and need a job. IMO the first few months of training rely on your puppy wanting to be around you, and shouting at it for things it doesn't understand it has done wrong, doesn't instil any bond or trust. I fully accept it may have been the thing to do 50years ago, but that doesn't make it a good training technique.


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## shergar (24 September 2015)

Harleygirl said:



			Puppies are essentially like toddlers. If you had a 2 year old that you were potty training and they peed on the floor would you smack them and push their nose in it? Because that's essentially what you're doing to a puppy. People aren't saying that smacking them, yelling at them, and pushing their face into poo/wee will create a dirty dog. It may hurt them mentally instead. I've heard of dogs who were punished for toiletting indoors and subsequently began eating their own poo as quickly as possible afterwards to avoid leaving traces of the mess and being punished for it so in the long run you can do a lot of damage.

OP - I think your problem is that the lines are being blurred. Your pup clearly can't hold it for 2 hours so poos/wees inside. Unless you're cleaning the area with biological cleaners, she can smell her wee on the floor and now thinks that's where she should go. You also clearly need to get up at night to take her outside to toilet. If you set 1-2 alarms, get up and take her out then eventually you can push back the times until it's 1 time out in the night and eventually holding it all night. Her bladder and bowel are tiny at this point, she physically can't hold it, and because she toilets indoors when you're not there in her mind unless she's outside with you she's allowed to go inside.
		
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This was a tip given to me by a dog trainer when I had to house train three  border collie  pups at the same time ,to remove all smell where the pup has made  a mess clean the floor with vinegar and water mix ,or a NON BIO soap powder in water .                  A lot of general house hold cleaners  contain enzymes and they seem to encourage the pup to go mess in the same place .


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## Clodagh (24 September 2015)

RunToEarth said:



			I will respond because I am one who stated that smacking puppies wouldn't work. 

I wasn't exclusively talking about house training, more training in general. ESS are a working breed and need a job. IMO the first few months of training rely on your puppy wanting to be around you, and shouting at it for things it doesn't understand it has done wrong, doesn't instil any bond or trust. I fully accept it may have been the thing to do 50years ago, but that doesn't make it a good training technique.
		
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With regards to house training I was thinking about this last night - I wonder if the puppies became trained anyway, smack or not, as the rest of the procedures follwed were the same as today, watch, moniter, offer plenty of opportunities to go. So being cross or not might have been totally irrelevant to the learning process. What do you think ycbm?


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## ycbm (24 September 2015)

Clodagh said:



			With regards to house training I was thinking about this last night - I wonder if the puppies became trained anyway, smack or not, as the rest of the procedures follwed were the same as today, watch, moniter, offer plenty of opportunities to go. So being cross or not might have been totally irrelevant to the learning process. What do you think ycbm?
		
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I was talking to the OH  about this and he suggested that puppy training is very much about establishing that the house is your territory and unavailable for marking by the puppy with his/her smell. It would explain why both methods work, and also why one smack worked with your particularly difficult dog. So, yes, provided you could completely remove all trace of smell, then I think the puppy would learn that anyway.

 It's good that people have discovered growling does the same thing and smacking is usually unnecessary, but I doubt if anyone is talking about smacking which would actually hurt the dog any more than we all go out and beat our horses just because a tap down the shoulder is effective in enhancing a leg aid.


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## Harleygirl (24 September 2015)

ycbm said:



			Puppies, in respect of toilet training, are nothing like toddlers. Toddlers do not mark their territory by urinating and defecating, and dogs do. Toddlers are being trained to go from a state of being unable to control when and where they urinate and defecate, to recognition and control of those functions. Puppies have control but have to be taught where is appropriate, otherwise they would wear nappies like babies do.  Lots of dogs eat dog poo, it's a problem that is often discussed on this forum.
		
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Same with puppies. They can't control their bladders/bowels and can go from happily wandering about/playing/whatever to peeing/pooing because they're also learning the feeling of needing to go which is why you need to be vigilant about taking them out. When they start to learn the feelings of needing to wee/poo and you've been bringing them outside and praising them for going they learn that they're meant to go outside. In terms of the dog I was talking about, he wasn't just wandering the garden eating his own poo. He would have an accident in the house and because he was given out to/smacked/whatever in his previous home, he would bolt it down out of fear and very often puke it back up and eat it again before his owners could clean it up/take it off him. It was very distressing for both dog and owner and it took a very long time to convince him that they weren't going to smack him for toiletting indoors.



shergar said:



			This was a tip given to me by a dog trainer when I had to house train three  border collie  pups at the same time ,to remove all smell where the pup has made  a mess clean the floor with vinegar and water mix ,or a NON BIO soap powder in water . A lot of general house hold cleaners  contain enzymes and they seem to encourage the pup to go mess in the same place .
		
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Oops, couldn't remember if it was Bio or Non-Bio washing powder, you're right though!



ycbm said:



			I was talking to the OH  about this and he suggested that puppy training is very much about establishing that the house is your territory and unavailable for marking by the puppy with his/her smell. It would explain why both methods work, and also why one smack worked with your particularly difficult dog. So, yes, provided you could completely remove all trace of smell, then I think the puppy would learn that anyway.
		
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At 12 weeks, I doubt a puppy is marking its territory. It suddenly has to pee so it goes and it tends to go where it smells it has peed before. That's not marking it's territory to say "that's my pee spot" it's more "this smells like where I've gone before which must be a safe spot to pee". As mentioned above, non-bio washing powder dissolved in water will remove the smell.


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## ycbm (24 September 2015)

Harleygirl overnight crate training would not work if a puppy had the low level of control over its bladder and bowels that you are suggesting, would it?  

I also see no difference in terms of training requirement between the action of recognising that territory is yours because you have deliberately peed there in the past or just happened to pee there in the past.  The job of the human is to teach the puppy that the inside of the house is not territory which belongs to them to use that way.

If cats are anything to go by, laundry stain remover spray will also remove the smell and you don't need to wash it out after you've sprayed. I've never tried it with puppies, though.


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## twiggy2 (24 September 2015)

ycbm said:



			Puppies, in respect of toilet training, are nothing like toddlers. Toddlers do not mark their territory by urinating and defecating, and dogs do. Toddlers are being trained to go from a state of being unable to control when and where they urinate and defecate, to recognition and control of those functions. Puppies have control but have to be taught where is appropriate, otherwise they would wear nappies like babies do.  Lots of dogs eat dog poo, it's a problem that is often discussed on this forum.  

Why are so many people so determined to believe that methods that were recommended at the time did not work when they did?  I can't remember a single poo eating, house soiling dog from my childhood and every dog I knew had been house trained the same way. Two of our own, dozens belonging to friends and family.

I'll repeat, I am NOT  suggesting that it was better, just that it worked, contrary to what is being said on  this thread.
		
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Puppies do not mark their territory, that does not come until they start to mature and adolescence hormones are raging, same with toddlers and older teenage boys-they don't need to announce they are about until they start to mature.
as Alec has mentioned dogs generally like to be clean so will tend to toilet in just one or 2 areas if space is limited as it generally is indoors.
As for the whole territory thing, I like to think the space I share with my dogs is our territory not theirs or mine-but we share it within some rules.


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## Love_my_Lurcher (24 September 2015)

ycbm said:



			I've been reading this thread with interest, seeing all the dire warnings about how you can't house train puppies by getting cross or punishing them.

I completely understand that things have moved on and there are other effective ways of training puppies. But fifty years ago, everyone I know trained puppies by 'rubbing their noses in it' (not usually literally) and telling them off, and sometimes smacking them. It was the accepted way of house training a puppy.  My parents trained two pups that way and they were quickly clean dogs. All my friends and family trained their dogs that way and I don't remember anyone with a dirty dog. It certainly does work, so why is it now the belief that it doesn't?
		
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You more or less said that you don't think there is anything wrong with training puppies the old fashioned way (i.e. smacking them).



ycbm said:



			Puppies, in respect of toilet training, are nothing like toddlers. Toddlers do not mark their territory by urinating and defecating, and dogs do. Toddlers are being trained to go from a state of being unable to control when and where they urinate and defecate, to recognition and control of those functions. Puppies have control but have to be taught where is appropriate, otherwise they would wear nappies like babies do.  Lots of dogs eat dog poo, it's a problem that is often discussed on this forum.  

Why are so many people so determined to believe that methods that were recommended at the time did not work when they did?  I can't remember a single poo eating, house soiling dog from my childhood and every dog I knew had been house trained the same way. Two of our own, dozens belonging to friends and family.

I'll repeat, I am NOT  suggesting that it was better, just that it worked, contrary to what is being said on  this thread.
		
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You are again saying that punitive methods worked and are coming over as advocating them.



ycbm said:



			I haven't seen anyone on this thread advocating physical punishment.
		
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See my responses above and your quoted comments were what led me to post the following.



Love_my_Lurcher said:



			I find it quite disturbing that there are some on here advocating physical punishment. Why don't you try learning a new craft and I will smack you every time you do something wrong!
		
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## Love_my_Lurcher (24 September 2015)

twiggy2 said:



			Puppies do not mark their territory, that does not come until they start to mature and adolescence hormones are raging, same with toddlers and older teenage boys-they don't need to announce they are about until they start to mature.
as Alec has mentioned dogs generally like to be clean so will tend to toilet in just one or 2 areas if space is limited as it generally is indoors.
As for the whole territory thing, I like to think the space I share with my dogs is our territory not theirs or mine-but we share it within some rules.
		
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Great post!


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## ycbm (24 September 2015)

Love_my_Lurcher said:



			You more or less said that you don't think there is anything wrong with training puppies the old fashioned way (i.e. smacking them).



You are again saying that punitive methods worked and are coming over as advocating them.



See my responses above and your quoted comments were what led me to post the following.
		
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I cannot prevent you from reading what you choose to read into what I write in spite of the fact that I repeatedly explicitly state that is not the case.  It is part of the price we pay for using a forum


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## Dobiegirl (24 September 2015)

I didnt read it as advocating punishment either just meaning these old practices worked and they have dropped out of favour. My family used these methods years ago as did friends but I would no more rub a pups nose in it then I would fly to the moon. 


We bought a puppy 4years ago and we crate trained her using Caylas excellent guide and our pup rarely had an accident and if she did it was down to us either expecting too much of her or missing the signals. I much prefer modern methods to the old ones and have even used it with foster dogs who were not house trained, give me a pup any day of the week than an adult unhouse trained dog.


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## varkie (24 September 2015)

Over the years I have successfully toilet trained quite a few dogs & puppies now, including one adult female who had come out of a puppy farm, and had no concept of not pooing and laying in it.  

I use a crate to train mine.  The crate is not a punishment - we teach them that it's a safe place where nice things happen.  We put it in a corner visible but out of the way.  Bigger is not better - it needs to be big enough for them to lay out flat comfortably, and sit upright comfortably, but no bigger - bigger, and they will tend to compartmentalise - sleep one half, mess the other.  We feed them in the crate, put toys in there, and comfy bedding and tempt them in there with treats.  Initially, we just concentrate on getting them to like the crate, and seeing it as a lovely place, when they first come to us.  I devote much of the first couple of days to watching them, until I have the crate to use.  We actually tend to have three crates - bedroom (our dogs sleep in the bedroom under the bed), lounge & car - meaning the dog can be moved about, but still be crated.

Once you can use the crate, life gets slightly easier.  If you cannot watch the dog, it goes in the crate.  You never punish the dog for having an accident - any accidents are your fault for not watching the dog close enough, and missing the signs.  When my dogs are not crated, I watch them every single second.  I also take them out to pee every thirty minutes, before meals, after meals, as soon as we're out of bed in the morning (before I go to the loo myself or dress!), before we go to bed at night, also if they start showing signs of wanting to go.  Every time you take them out and they pee, use the word you're going to use as a key word and say it - so my latest puppy (now about 18 months old) goes when I say 'have a wee', my middle dog goes if you say 'wee on the grass', I can't remember what words I used with the oldest dog - she was incredibly switched on, and pretty much trained herself - we were lucky.  The words don't matter - as long as you use the same ones every single time.  After a while, the dog realises that there is an association between peeing and the words you use, and then you'll be able to start using the words and they'll go on command.  I can take all of mine outside, and on word command, they'll try to have a wee for me.  If you are consistent about watching them, being calm and consistent, and taking them out or crateing them, they are usually toilet trained within one to two weeks.  But you have to keep it up for weeks on end, until it's second nature to them.  Stop too soon, and they'll make a mistake, and then it's a slippery slope.


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## deicinmerlyn (24 September 2015)

Crating is fine for short periods of time as a safe place and training tool but I hope the OP is not now going to leave her Pup in a crate all day.


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## Harleygirl (25 September 2015)

ycbm said:



			Harleygirl overnight crate training would not work if a puppy had the low level of control over its bladder and bowels that you are suggesting, would it?
		
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I'm saying overnight the pup can't hold it and can't feel that it has to go so will just go regardless of whether or not it's in a crate. Which is why when you properly crate train a pup it goes in overnight and you take it out a few times to do its business. When it starts to get older and recognise the signs of needing to toilet it won't want to go in its crate which again is why you're preemptively taking it out. When it gets older still you won't need to get up as frequently (from twice to once) to let it out to toilet and eventually it will be able to be left overnight in its crate without messing.


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## Goldenstar (25 September 2015)

I kept my pup in his crate by my bed and got up over night to take him out .
We only had one accident at night .
He's out the crate now ( sleeping on the bed I know I know ) and he's not an accident for weeks .
He's sixteen weeks now I think .


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## Fools Motto (26 September 2015)

No, never all day.
Crating mainly in the evenings as it seems to be her time to have accidents and when we're busy getting the kids to bed, making tea, and having a bath it is ideal.
Saying all that, she has been very good. only 1 wee each stint we're not here in the day and 1 over night.


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