# Can anyone advise me please I have been taken to court



## jo.stock (18 November 2021)

Hi I’m look for some advice on what to do. I sold a pony 6 months ago he was 4 years old and only lightly backed. I had owned him for 2 years never needed a vet never seen him lame.Anyway I sold him to a lady and her daughter she came to look at him with her experienced friend they rode him in the paddock and played with him and was happy and wanted him but didn’t have enough money until she had been paid at the end of the month. I was happy to wait because I thought they was the perfect people for him so I said they could have him on trail until they raised the money and that they could come down whenever they wanted I didn’t even need to know which they did I offered them to have the pony vetted but they didn’t feel the need the end of the month came and they was happy with him and bought him I gave them a receipt and wrote on sold as seen and the buyer signed it and took the pony I was getting updates every week saying he was settling  in and he’s broken threw fences ect about a month later she txt me to say she was moving the pony to a different yard another month past and then I got a txt saying we have a problem max is lame and she has had a vet and she said he has  laxity of the hock and it would of been apparent from birth I question it because I have never seen anything wrong with the pony so she’s taken it to court we had a resolution hearing yesterday and apparently I have to pay half the vet bill to have the pony x-rayed and a lameness test im so confused she didn’t want the pony vetting before purchasing so now why do I have to go halfs


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## Xmas lucky (18 November 2021)

Technically speaking if she didn’t do a vetting she shouldn’t have a leg to stand on because she took that risk and it’s her own fault .


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## Amymay (18 November 2021)

What’s your solicitors opinion on this.

What part of the country are you in?


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## TPO (18 November 2021)

Joins BHS as a gold member and call their legal helpline


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## jo.stock (18 November 2021)

Amymay said:



			What’s your solicitors opinion on this.

What part of the country are you in?
		
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She just kept saying buyer beware we are in Lancashire


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## splashgirl45 (18 November 2021)

You need some proper legal advice if you are a gold BHS member you get free legal assistance .. otherwise it may cost you more for the advice than half the vets bill. Sounds wrong to me but I’m no legal expert


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## bonny (18 November 2021)

You need a solicitor, did you go to court yesterday ?


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## jo.stock (18 November 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			You need some proper legal advice if you are a gold BHS member you get free legal assistance .. otherwise it may cost you more for the advice than half the vets bill. Sounds wrong to me but I’m no legal expert
		
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I have taken it and she said to defend myself I don’t need to pay half the vets at all and she’s confused why I’m having to pay half the vet bill


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## Amymay (18 November 2021)

jo.stock said:



			She just kept saying buyer beware we are in Lancashire
		
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In that case get yourself some proper legal representation. If what you say is correct, no judgment in the land would hold you partially liable. So either the judge is bent, your solicitor is useless or there’s more to the story.


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## jo.stock (18 November 2021)

bonny said:



			You need a solicitor, did you go to court yesterday ?
		
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I rang one this morning and she said to defend myself because it will just eat into money


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## Amymay (18 November 2021)

How did they prove negligence on your side?


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## jo.stock (18 November 2021)

Because I sold a pony knowing they was going to ride it ?


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## Amymay (18 November 2021)

jo.stock said:



			Because I sold a pony knowing they was going to ride it ?
		
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The only advice any of us can give you is to get a solicitor.


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## View (18 November 2021)

Are you a BHS Gold member?  If so ring the legal helpline before you do anything else.

if not, do you have legal expenses cover through your home insurance or access to a legal helpline through say trade union membership? If so, make that phone call.

If not, then speak to one of the solicitors specialising in equine matters

if you are a private seller, the question is did you knowingly misrepresent the horse.

Get proper advice now.


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## jo.stock (18 November 2021)

Lucky101 said:



			Technically speaking if she didn’t do a vetting she shouldn’t have a leg to stand on because she took that risk and it’s her own fault .
		
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That’s what I said she refused to have him vetted she had him on trail for just short of a month and nothing was noticed surely if he had something from birth someone would of noticed something


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## ycbm (18 November 2021)

There's no point joining the BHS now they won't handle a case that is already in progress.  
.


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## ycbm (18 November 2021)

jo.stock said:



			That’s what I said she refused to have him vetted she had him on trail for just short of a month and nothing was noticed surely if he had something from birth someone would of noticed something
		
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That's irrelevant anyway, in theory.  In a private sale you would have to have both known AND lied about it when asked in order to be liable.

Who exactly has ordered you to pay half the vet bill?

Did you agree to go to arbitration?  If so and you are in England you do not have to accept the result of the arbitration and can make her take it to court,  where you "should" win because she doesn't appear to have a leg to stand on legally.
.


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## Amymay (18 November 2021)

jo.stock said:



			That’s what I said she refused to have him vetted she had him on trail for just short of a month and nothing was noticed surely if he had something from birth someone would of noticed something
		
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All very odd. 🤷🏻‍♀️


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## jo.stock (18 November 2021)

Amymay said:



			All very odd. 🤷🏻‍♀️
		
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Makes no sense does it


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## bonny (18 November 2021)

Can you explain what happened when you went to court ?


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## jo.stock (18 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			That's irrelevant anyway, in theory.  In a private sale you would have to have both known AND lied about it when asked in order to be liable.

Who exactly has ordered you to pay half the vet bill?

Did you agree to go to arbitration?  If so and you are in England you do not have to accept the result of the arbitration and can make her take it to court,  where you "should" win because she doesn't appear to have a leg to stand on legally.
.
		
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It was a judge to basically say what she would do if it was in her court 🤷‍♀️ It was called a resolution hearing I’m not clued up with all this stuff and I have 2 weeks to find 3 vets and the prices to then send to the buyer and she chooses which one to go threw


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## bonny (18 November 2021)

jo.stock said:



			It was a judge to basically say what she would do if it was in her court 🤷‍♀️ It was called a resolution hearing I’m not clued up with all this stuff and I have 2 weeks to find 3 vets and the prices to then send to the buyer and she chooses which one to go threw
		
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We’re you there ? Did you say anything ?


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## ycbm (18 November 2021)

jo.stock said:



			It was a judge to basically say what she would do if it was in her court 🤷‍♀️ It was called a resolution hearing I’m not clued up with all this stuff and I have 2 weeks to find 3 vets and the prices to then send to the buyer and she chooses which one to go threw
		
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This sounds like an arbitration meeting.  Are you in England?  In England that would not be binding,  which is why a solicitor is telling you not to pay.  I do not understand why it would be your responsibility to organise a vet for a pony which is not in your keeping.

Did the judge even understand that vets don't give prices for this kind of examination? A pony isn't a car!

Do you have a court order on official paper telling you that you must do this? What exactly is written on any papers you have about this?
.


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## jo.stock (18 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			This sounds like an arbitration meeting.  Are you in England?  In England that would not be binding,  which is why a solicitor is telling you not to pay.  I do not understand why it would be your responsibility to organise a very for a pony which is not in your keeping.

Do you have a court order on official paper telling you that you must do this? What exactly is written on any peepers you have about this?
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We are in Lancashire England I have the court papers but not with this written on this was done over the phone


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## PurBee (18 November 2021)

Well ..if a judge imposes such conditions on a private seller, after a pony trail and refusal of vetting, and after owner owned pony for a couple of months - all those who ever sell a horse are subject to such legal b*lox from such a ‘judge’.

I’d appeal and throw consumer law in the judges face to remind them theyre making judgements outside of the law.

Look through the appeal process. You sound like you do need representation, as most would when a judge starts making up thier own laws. You can get legal aid….applicable if youre on low income. A solicitor also can advise you on applying.


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## ycbm (18 November 2021)

jo.stock said:



			We are in Lancashire England I have the court papers but not with this written on this was done over the phone
		
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Then it's an arbitration session.  You do not have to agree to it.  Don't do it,  let the buyer take you to court and find a good strong friend to help you through this,  you are close enough to me if you are South Lancashire I will help you.

ETA see later posts,  this is probably not the case.,
.


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## TPO (18 November 2021)

I don't know about the equine legal side but what you have talked about is  normal arbitration process. There's a mediator and the aim is both agree on an outcome. My only experience is about construction contracts but it's the same process.

It sounds like buyer suggested sharing vets bills and an agreement was made.

Easy for me to say but you should have said no to paying half of anything or taking on finding prices etc.

If you Google there's lots of info about arbitration ad the process. A bit late now but it might help you to understand it.

Pretty bad show by the solicitor. It wouldn't take a good solicitor 5mins to get this thrown out.

Do you have anything written, like a text or email, where you've offered the horse up for vetting and/or the buyer stating that they didn't want to vet the pony?

Maybe try Citizens advice bureau?

Eta- I type too slow on my phone and ycbm has said it all better


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## jo.stock (18 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			Then it's an arbitration session.  You do not have to agree to it.  Don't do it,  let the buyer take you to court and find a good strong friend to help you through this,  you are close enough to me if you are South Lancashire I will help you.
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I think I already did agree I recorded the hole thing I can send it you if you would like to listen to me absolutely messing it all up 🙈


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## IrishMilo (18 November 2021)

They also have to prove that you know about the condition as far as I'm aware.


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## ycbm (18 November 2021)

PurBee said:



			Well ..if a judge imposes such conditions on a private seller, after a pony trail and refusal of vetting, and after owner owned pony for a couple of months - all those who ever sell a horse are subject to such legal b*lox from such a ‘judge’.

I’d appeal and throw consumer law in the judges face to remind them theyre making judgements outside of the law.

Look through the appeal process. You sound like you do need representation, as most would when a judge starts making up thier own laws. You can get legal aid….applicable if youre on low income. A solicitor also can advise you on applying.
		
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It does not need an appeal,  no court judgement  has been made.  This was an unbinding arbitration session.

ETA see later posts,  it appears this is actually probably binding,  which is completely mad!
.


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## jo.stock (18 November 2021)

IrishMilo said:



			They also have to prove that you know about the condition as far as I'm aware.
		
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Yes that’s what I have heard aswell I said I will ring every vet on speakerphone to clarify I did not have a vet to this pony


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## ycbm (18 November 2021)

jo.stock said:



			I think I already did agree I recorded the hole thing I can send it you if you would like to listen to me absolutely messing it all up 🙈
		
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I don't think you have to go through with it and neither does the solicitor that you spoke to today who has told you not to pay. 

I believe there are no penalties if you now write and say that away from the pressure of the phone call you have realised that the request is not reasonable and you want the case to go to court.  

You do need to clarify that with Citizens Advice or a lawyer. 
.


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## ycbm (18 November 2021)

jo.stock said:



			Yes that’s what I have heard aswell I said I will ring every vet on speakerphone to clarify I did not have a vet to this pony
		
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Don't ring any vets.  It is a completely unreasonable request for you to engage a vet to examine a pony you don't own. If it's also an impossible requirement to  obtain a quote from a vet,  never mind three, for an unspecified examination of a pony they have never seen.  

Ring Citizens Advice.


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## PurBee (18 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			It does not need an appeal,  no court judgement  has been made.  This was an unbinding arbitration session.
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 As had been made clear - thank god….was starting to wonder if the court process had disintegrated to a mad hatters tea party! 😳


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## jo.stock (18 November 2021)

bonny said:



			Can you explain what happened when you went to court ?
		
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It was done over the phone this woman Said she was a judge and what she would do if it was in her court and basically she said I sold a pony that I knew the woman wanted it for riding and it’s not fit for purpose and we need professional diagnosis so we have to pay half each


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## Lindylouanne (18 November 2021)

How do you know she was a judge?


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## ycbm (18 November 2021)

jo.stock said:



			It was done over the phone this woman Said she was a judge and what she would do if it was in her court and basically she said I sold a pony that I knew the woman wanted it for riding and it’s not fit for purpose and we need professional diagnosis so we have to pay half each
		
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The judge is wrong unless you are a dealer.  Is this the only pony you have sold?

It's also irrelevant that she a judge,  in this case she is only acting as an arbitrator.

Her job as an arbitrator is to get people to agree so it never takes up court time,  not to apply the law correctly.  She has seen you as a pushover and done you down in order to achieve that end.
.


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## AFishOutOfWater (18 November 2021)

Why does it feel as if something isn't adding up here?

OP, get legal advice. 

Incidentally if it does go to court be aware anything on social media can be used as evidence by either party.


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## ycbm (18 November 2021)

Jo.Stock

Is this the only pony you have sold in the last 2 years?


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## jo.stock (18 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			The judge is wrong unless you are a dealer.  Is this the only pony you have sold?

It's also irrelevant that she a judge,  in this case she is only acting as an arbitrator.

Her job as an arbitrator is to get people to agree so it never takes up court time,  not to apply the law correctly.  She has seen you as a pushover and done you down in order to achieve that end.
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Yes it was just a private sale


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## jo.stock (18 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			Jo.Stock

Is this the only pony you have sold in the last 2 years?
		
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Yes it was a private sale


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## penguin83 (18 November 2021)

Hi sorry to jump in. I don't usually post.

It sounds like a dispute resolution hearing which takes place before a judge and attempts to settle the case or narrow the issues before trial. It is likely that you have been ordered to pay half as this report will be used as joint evidence for the final hearing. The successful party may be awarded these costs back at the end of the case.

You should receive a court order shortly detailing the actions you need to take and when by. If you are in any doubt, phone the court to confirm. Please don't assume this was not judge led resolution. 🙂


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## ycbm (18 November 2021)

Penguin how did a judge trying to narrow the issues use the term "fit for purpose"  with reference to a private sale of a horse where that term simply does not apply?

If they have done that then does the seller have an avenue to appeal the instruction on the basis that they are not a business seller and sale of goods act does not apply?

This doesn't seem right at all.

JS you really do need a lawyer who knows horses. Check whether you have legal fees insurance on a house policy if you have one.  If this goes to court with a similarly ignorant judge you could end up paying all the costs and refunding for the pony at this rate!

Apologies if I misled you or anyone else,  I thought you were talking about a case brought through the small claims court that had gone to arbitration,  but it would seem it's got a lot more serious than that if the buyer could be awarded costs. 
.


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## PurBee (18 November 2021)

jo.stock said:



			Hi I’m look for some advice on what to do. I sold a pony 6 months ago he was 4 years old and only lightly backed. I had owned him for 2 years never needed a vet never seen him lame.Anyway I sold him to a lady and her daughter she came to look at him with her experienced friend they rode him in the paddock and played with him and was happy and wanted him but didn’t have enough money until she had been paid at the end of the month. I was happy to wait because I thought they was the perfect people for him so I said they could have him on trail until they raised the money and that they could come down whenever they wanted I didn’t even need to know which they did I offered them to have the pony vetted but they didn’t feel the need the end of the month came and they was happy with him and bought him I gave them a receipt and wrote on sold as seen and the buyer signed it and took the pony I was getting updates every week saying he was settling  in and he’s broken threw fences ect about a month later she txt me to say she was moving the pony to a different yard another month past and then I got a txt saying we have a problem max is lame and she has had a vet and she said he has  laxity of the hock and it would of been apparent from birth I question it because I have never seen anything wrong with the pony so she’s taken it to court we had a resolution hearing yesterday and apparently I have to pay half the vet bill to have the pony x-rayed and a lameness test im so confused she didn’t want the pony vetting before purchasing so now why do I have to go halfs
		
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The pony breaking through fences as buyer admitted to, probably caused the lame injury. 
The laxity would have been obvious to the experienced friend surely? Especially if they rode the pony, multiple times, on trial. 

You probably already have done but a friendly reminder to keep all contact emails/texts/phone messages between you and buyer as evidence of how the deal happened. Keep all old photos of pony showing leg conformation before buyer bought pony.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (18 November 2021)

I'm no Legal but there are two things which stand out:

Firstly that you invited her to have the pony vetted, and secondly that you wrote "Sold as Seen". 

Caveat Emptor, "Let the Buyer Beware".

What a horrible situation to find yourself in. 

Unfortunately I fear that you are going to have to spend a tidy sum of money for a Legal to represent you in this; forgive me for being blunt but I feel you are in danger of digging a deeper hole for yourself unless you do obtain some legal representation.


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## PurBee (18 November 2021)

jo.stock said:



			It was done over the phone this woman Said she was a judge and what she would do if it was in her court and basically she said I sold a pony that I knew the woman wanted it for riding and it’s not fit for purpose and we need professional diagnosis so we have to pay half each
		
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Have you received any official emails or paperwork through the post to confirm a legal claim has been made against you?

Or did you just get a phonecall one day out of the blue from a person claiming to be a judge, after seller said they would take you to court?

I agree with snail…this case seems odd.


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## jo.stock (18 November 2021)

PurBee said:



			Have you received any official emails or paperwork through the post to confirm a legal claim has been made against you?

Or did you just get a phonecall one day out of the blue from a person claiming to be a judge, after seller said they would take you to court?

I agree with snail…this case seems odd.
		
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Yes I got court papers threw the post this hearing was a resolution hearing and non of it makes to me either


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## jo.stock (18 November 2021)

PurBee said:



			The pony breaking through fences as buyer admitted to, probably caused the lame injury.
The laxity would have been obvious to the experienced friend surely? Especially if they rode the pony, multiple times, on trial.

You probably already have done but a friendly reminder to keep all contact emails/texts/phone messages between you and buyer as evidence of how the deal happened. Keep all old photos of pony showing leg conformation before buyer bought pony.
		
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Yes I have all the messages advertising ect and I have said why didn’t anyone notice anything up with him in the month they was coming down


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## Amymay (18 November 2021)

jo.stock said:



			Yes I got court papers threw the post this hearing was a resolution hearing and non of it makes to me either
		
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Well, time to get yourself a good equine solicitor. PeterNat on here is usually able to supply a good list of them.


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## jo.stock (18 November 2021)

penguin83 said:



			Hi sorry to jump in. I don't usually post.

It sounds like a dispute resolution hearing which takes place before a judge and attempts to settle the case or narrow the issues before trial. It is likely that you have been ordered to pay half as this report will be used as joint evidence for the final hearing. The successful party may be awarded these costs back at the end of the case.

You should receive a court order shortly detailing the actions you need to take and when by. If you are in any doubt, phone the court to confirm. Please don't assume this was not judge led resolution. 🙂
		
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Thank you for this so I do carry on with finding the vets


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## jo.stock (18 November 2021)

Amymay said:



			Well, time to get yourself a good equine solicitor. PeterNat on here is usually able to supply a good list of them.
		
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Thank you


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## Amymay (18 November 2021)

From one of PeterNatts posts 


Here is a list of Equine Solicitors:
I hope it helps!

Actons
Tel: 0115 91002200 Caroline Bowler

Mark Carter
White Bowker Solicitors
Tel: 01962 844440
www.wandb.co.uk
mark.carter@wandb.co.uk

Andrew Dalton
Who is a solicitor and rides a motorbike having been a courier www.adventurebikerider.com
Helen Niebuhr
Darbys Solicitors
52 New Inn Hall Street
Oxford
OX1 2QD
Tel: 01865 811 7000
01865 811712
Fax: 01865 811 777
www.equine-law.net
E: equine@darbys.co.uk

Jaqcui Fulton Equine Law
Tel: 0121 308 5915
jf@equinelawuk.co.uk
www.equinelawuk.co.uk

Hannah Campbell (Specialise in compensation cases)
Tel: 01446 794196 (Specialises in traffic accidents involving horses)
www.horsesolicitor.co.uk
info@horse solicitor

Hanna Campbell
Horse Solicitors
(Took on case in 2013 on behalf of Claire Berry-Jones) involving making a claim Motor Insurers Bureau (MIB)

Elizabeth Simpson Senior Solicitor at law firm Andrew M Jackson
Tel: 01482 325242
www.andrewjackson.co.uk
enquiries@andrewjackson.co.uk

David Forbes or Belinda Walkinshaw
Pickworths Solicitors
6 Victoria Street
St Albans
Hertfordshire
AL1 3JB
01727 844511

Mark de-villamar Roberts
Langleys Solicitors Equine Law Group
Tel: 01904 683051
E: mark.Roberts@langleys.com
www.equinelawyers.co.uk

Elizabeth Simpson
Senior Solicitor
Andrew Jackson
Yorkshire
Tel: 01482 325242
www.andrewjackson.co.uk

Richmond Solicitors
13-15 High Street
Keynsham
Bristol
BS31 1DP
Tel: 0117 986 9555
Fax: 0117 986 8680
enquiries@richmonssolicitorsco.uk

Jacqui Fulton
Giselle Robinson Solicitors
Inderjit Gill
Jacksons Specialist Equine Solicitor
Represented Gaynor Goodall in an accident on a bridleway on Tameside County Court 01 February 2010

Knights Solicitors 
Tunbridge Wells
Tel: 01892 537311
www.knights-solicitors.co.uk
Work with GRC Commercial Bailiffs
Senior partner very good on equine matters

Horse Solicitor
Tel: 01446 794 196
info@horsesolicitor.co.uk
www.horsesolicitor.com

www.laytons.com

Mary Ann Reay Charles or Chris Shaw
Shaw and Co Solicitors
Equine Law Specialists
Tel: 0800 019 1248
info@shawandco.com
www.shawandco.com

Arnold Thomson
205 Watling Street West
Towcester
Northants
NN12 6BX
Tel: 01327 350266
Fax: 01327 353567
www.arnoldthomson.com
enquiries@arnoldthomson.com

Tozers  www.tozers.co.uk

Eleanor Temple Barrister from Kings Chambers in Leeds
Tel: 0113 242 1123
www.kingschambers.com


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## jo.stock (18 November 2021)

Amymay said:



			From one of PeterNatts posts


Here is a list of Equine Solicitors:
I hope it helps!

Actons
Tel: 0115 91002200 Caroline Bowler

Mark Carter
White Bowker Solicitors
Tel: 01962 844440
www.wandb.co.uk
mark.carter@wandb.co.uk

Andrew Dalton
Who is a solicitor and rides a motorbike having been a courier www.adventurebikerider.com
Helen Niebuhr
Darbys Solicitors
52 New Inn Hall Street
Oxford
OX1 2QD
Tel: 01865 811 7000
01865 811712
Fax: 01865 811 777
www.equine-law.net
E: equine@darbys.co.uk

Jaqcui Fulton Equine Law
Tel: 0121 308 5915
jf@equinelawuk.co.uk
www.equinelawuk.co.uk

Hannah Campbell (Specialise in compensation cases)
Tel: 01446 794196 (Specialises in traffic accidents involving horses)
www.horsesolicitor.co.uk
info@horse solicitor

Hanna Campbell
Horse Solicitors
(Took on case in 2013 on behalf of Claire Berry-Jones) involving making a claim Motor Insurers Bureau (MIB)

Elizabeth Simpson Senior Solicitor at law firm Andrew M Jackson
Tel: 01482 325242
www.andrewjackson.co.uk
enquiries@andrewjackson.co.uk

David Forbes or Belinda Walkinshaw
Pickworths Solicitors
6 Victoria Street
St Albans
Hertfordshire
AL1 3JB
01727 844511

Mark de-villamar Roberts
Langleys Solicitors Equine Law Group
Tel: 01904 683051
E: mark.Roberts@langleys.com
www.equinelawyers.co.uk

Elizabeth Simpson
Senior Solicitor
Andrew Jackson
Yorkshire
Tel: 01482 325242
www.andrewjackson.co.uk

Richmond Solicitors
13-15 High Street
Keynsham
Bristol
BS31 1DP
Tel: 0117 986 9555
Fax: 0117 986 8680
enquiries@richmonssolicitorsco.uk

Jacqui Fulton
Giselle Robinson Solicitors
Inderjit Gill
Jacksons Specialist Equine Solicitor
Represented Gaynor Goodall in an accident on a bridleway on Tameside County Court 01 February 2010

Knights Solicitors
Tunbridge Wells
Tel: 01892 537311
www.knights-solicitors.co.uk
Work with GRC Commercial Bailiffs
Senior partner very good on equine matters

Horse Solicitor
Tel: 01446 794 196
info@horsesolicitor.co.uk
www.horsesolicitor.com

www.laytons.com

Mary Ann Reay Charles or Chris Shaw
Shaw and Co Solicitors
Equine Law Specialists
Tel: 0800 019 1248
info@shawandco.com
www.shawandco.com

Arnold Thomson
205 Watling Street West
Towcester
Northants
NN12 6BX
Tel: 01327 350266
Fax: 01327 353567
www.arnoldthomson.com
enquiries@arnoldthomson.com

Tozers  www.tozers.co.uk

Eleanor Temple Barrister from Kings Chambers in Leeds
Tel: 0113 242 1123
www.kingschambers.com

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Thank you so much


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## ycbm (18 November 2021)

jo.stock said:



			Thank you for this so I do carry on with finding the vets
		
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You need to ask a solicitor.  You've already had wrong advice from me on this because I misunderstood your posts.  This has already gone too far for you to be asking for help on a forum.
.


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## ycbm (19 November 2021)

This has been bugging me all night. I hate giving bad advice 😕

I don't see any way that a judge can have used the words "fit for purpose" in that court hearing unless the judge is a fool or the buyer has managed to convince the judge that this was a business sale.

Is there more to this than you are telling us Jo? Have you ever sold any other horses? Do you run a horse related business? 
.


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## jo.stock (19 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			This has been bugging me all night. I hate giving bad advice 😕

I don't see any way that a judge can have used the words "fit for purpose" in that court hearing unless the judge is a fool or the buyer has managed to convince the judge that this was a business sale.

Is there more to this than you are telling us Jo? Have you ever sold any other horses? Do you run a horse related business?
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Hi oh no I don’t want to fretting about it it was a private sale he was a lightly backed stated in his advert she had him on a trail at my farm for just short of a month she was offered to have him vetted she turned it down I have never once seen the pony lame sick or sorry he never needed a vet unlike my other horse 🙈 but they are my babies and want for nothing I have multiple sclerosis that why I had to let him go because he needed a job anyway so the lady txt me saying she’s had a vet and he has laxity of the hock I said are you sure because he’s never shown any signs she got nasty saying I knew about it I asked for the vets details because I couldn’t get my head around it rung the vets she said he was lame on the day could be possible laxity of the hock but wouldn’t know until he had a full lameness test and X-rays so I told the woman take me to court if she still felt this way then I got a court letter threw with all the claimants statements and we had a dispute resolution hearing date it was over the phone judge said the pony is not fit for purpose he was sold as a ridden pony (he wasn’t) but I knew the buyer wanted to eventually ride him and I have to either give a full refund or pay half the vets to see if he actually has laxity of the hock and not fit for purpose 
Sorry I’m a pain I’m just totally confused by it all


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## bonny (19 November 2021)

You are not being a pain, it sounds like a horrible situation to find yourself in. I have no experience to help but I really hope someone can help you resolve things x


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## jo.stock (19 November 2021)

bonny said:



			You are not being a pain, it sounds like a horrible situation to find yourself in. I have no experience to help but I really hope someone can help you resolve things x
		
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Thank you so much it’s the pony I feel for I really did think I found him the most perfect Home


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## Amymay (19 November 2021)

jo.stock said:



			Thank you so much it’s the pony I feel for I really did think I found him the most perfect Home
		
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It’s tough when it goes pear shaped.

Anyway, good luck moving forward. Hopefully you’ve managed to retain a solicitor now who can advise you going forward.


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## paddy555 (19 November 2021)

jo.stock said:



			Hi oh no I don’t want to fretting about it it was a private sale he was a lightly backed stated in his advert she had him on a trail at my farm for just short of a month she was offered to have him vetted she turned it down I have never once seen the pony lame sick or sorry he never needed a vet unlike my other horse 🙈 but they are my babies and want for nothing I have multiple sclerosis that why I had to let him go because he needed a job anyway so the lady txt me saying she’s had a vet and he has laxity of the hock I said are you sure because he’s never shown any signs she got nasty saying I knew about it I asked for the vets details because I couldn’t get my head around it rung the vets she said he was lame on the day could be possible laxity of the hock but wouldn’t know until he had a full lameness test and X-rays so I told the woman take me to court if she still felt this way *then I got a court letter threw with all the claimants statements and we had a dispute resolution hearing date it was over the phone judge said the pony is not fit for purpose he was sold as a ridden pony (he wasn’t) but I knew the buyer wanted to eventually ride him and I have to either give a full refund or pay half the vets to see if he actually has laxity of the hock and not fit for purpose*
Sorry I’m a pain I’m just totally confused by it all
		
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I'm sorry you are having to go through this.  
I am struggling with what appears to be a gap in the part I have highlighted above.. 

you got a court letter with the claimant's allegations. OK to there and the next thing seems to be the judge tells you what you have to do. 
What has happened to your defence in the meantime? The claimant has put their side, what about yours? did you send statements saying you were a private seller, about the pony's history and you had no reason to believe he had a problem, explaining the time they had him on trial and could have had a vet, the fact you offered them to vet the pony,  the simple fact that the judge may not have known which is that it is reasonable to vet a horse you are buying and pretty irresponsible not to, how long they have had the pony and it has not come up until now. Has the judge had the opportunity to read your statement and take your views into account. When they rang you with their decision did you discuss it with them, object, point out you are a private seller, you can't see how it applies to you, question their decision or just accept it. Is there any reasoning other than what you have written about in the court paper as to how the judge arrived at the decision. 

It is unclear what info. the judge had. If they only had the claimants side of the story then their view appears reasonable. If they had both sides and were aware of all the facts then no. 

Is there any info in the court papers as to what to do if you disagree the judge's decision? I am not sure there is a right of appeal. Does it say anywhere if you can apply to extend the time limit given by the judge? 

You are not being a pain in the slightest, probably just a little lost. 

What do you want the outcome idc to be? can you take the pony back and refund? if the new vetting goes against you what are you going to do. Is there a case for taking the pony back now to save any further expenditure? 
Not suggesting you should just exploring the way forward

If you think you have a good case and want to pursue it then I would draw up an e mail with a very brief outline of the facts in list form (but including everything) choose a couple of equine solicitors off the list, send it to them and ask if they would be willing to take it and to give you some idea of the charges. 

In the meantime I would select 3 vets,  e mail them with your requirements (or at least the judge's requirements) and ask if it is possible, the cost and the timescale for doing this. I think some vets have long waiting lists due to covid etc so meeting the time limit may be difficult. If it was me I would be choosing a reputable equine practice. If you select the cheapest, small general vets practices and if there is nothing wrong with the pony then you may end up with the claimant being a PITA and wanting a 2nd opinion. 

Once you have done all that lot you will have all the info to hand and decide how you want to go forward.


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## Birker2020 (19 November 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			You need some proper legal advice if you are a gold BHS member you get free legal assistance .. otherwise it may cost you more for the advice than half the vets bill. Sounds wrong to me but I’m no legal expert
		
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If you buy privately you have much more less options than if you purchase via a dealer.
You have to prove that the owner of the horse lied to you.  How you go about that when it is clearly your word against hers is not known.

Or if you had a vetting you can go down the route that the vet should have know that there was an issue but they can come up with a million and one excuses why something wasn't evident on the day or that they did the checks necessary but nothing showed up on the day.

when I spoke to BHS legal they said that if I wanted to sell said animal I would not have to declare a thing to the potential purchaser and it would be up to them to ask any questions.  So asking a general question like 'have you had the vet out to this horse in your ownership' may not cover it.

It was basically 'does this horse have an issue with his hooves?'. Does it have an issue with its pastern? Does it have an issue with its fetlocks?  Does it have an issue with its cannon bones.  Does it have an issue with its knees and so on and so forth until you have covered every bone in its body.  Then you can move on to skin.  Then behaviour.  In about two days you may have covered everything.  And then its still your word against theirs.

This was also confirmed to me by an equine solicitor.

Apparently due diligence is a lot more complicated.  Asking on dodgy dealer websites/word of mouth/getting a five stage vetting/asking the right questions/taking someone with you IS STILL NOT ENOUGH


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## PurBee (19 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			This has been bugging me all night. I hate giving bad advice 😕

I don't see any way that a judge can have used the words "fit for purpose" in that court hearing unless the judge is a fool or the buyer has managed to convince the judge that this was a business sale.

Is there more to this than you are telling us Jo? Have you ever sold any other horses? Do you run a horse related business?
.
		
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I agree, the judge seems to obviously be under the impression that this was a business sale, to impose all this onto a private seller.

The buyer had the option to vet, which they refused. They had a months trial on owners property, (due to lack of funds to buy the pony), free to ride and visit the pony anytime, to do further checks before deciding to purchase. The pony was fine evidently for them to decide to buy.

Now the pony has since with new owner been to 2 homes in 2 months, broken through fences, made itself lame probably via its fence wrecking escapades, and the buyer now realises vet fees and responsibility of a pony is more than cuddles and fun rides, likely cant afford the sudden vet investigations if funds werent even liquid enough to buy the pony when they were looking….in deep water with a poorly pony, feeling overwhelmed and wants the seller to take it back. Going about it the wrong way by taking seller to court!

If buyer gets their own way in this, seller ends up with a lame pony, made lame by someone else…and now cannot sell-on a lame pony and would have to rehab and treat before re-sale. Unbelievable this could happen to a private seller.

If a horse is bought and moved to a new yard, treated however by new owner, horse not allowed to settle in at its own pace - gets stressed, gets ulcers…..the old seller then should take that horse back and treat for ulcers caused by someone elses mistreatment/inappropriate management of said horse? This judge is saying ‘yes’. The judge has to be hugely mis-informed about this case.

Thats like taking a car youve crashed back to the garage and asking for a refund, hoping the seller will happily pay for your misdeeds. Whereas this is a live animal - 1 day can be fine, and another lame, despite vetting etc. Thats the risk us buyers take with animals, when buying from a private seller.

OP - as mentioned, enquire if your house (contents?)insurance policy covers you for legal fees associated with your ‘belongings’ (can our pets be included in that as our ‘belongings’?) Or do you have ‘farm insurance’ - that more likely covers livestock. Or if you qualify for legal aid. You DO need a solicitor at this stage, as a judgement has been made, and it sounds as if your defence has not been put forward adequately.

But what a massive headache for you. Just terrible.

Have you assessed the pony since injury yourself? It sounds, if the vet suspects laxity, that tendon/ligament injury has occurred. Depending on severity depends on rehab and future work/ridden potential for the pony.

It’s up to you to decide whether you battle the legal process and (should) win - but the cost of that financially for you depends on your ability to secure legal representation free via insurance policies you hold or via legal aid. You weigh up the cost of the pony sale verses the time/emotional hassle and potential cost of court.

If the pony’s happiness is paramount to you, id even consider refunding, getting the pony back and rehabbing if it is a rehab case. If its a severe injury, the ability to resell for riding is unknown. Basically, im saying, if you can afford to lose the money, have the pony, re-hab and even sell on as a companion for someone, would you?

It’s not legally fair for you to take the pony back, i know,  but your finances are your business and if you can afford the loss, and the pony being in a good home , even as a companion is more important than winning this case in court with a good solicitor who should win this for you (if it really is a private sale - sounds like it from all youve stated) - then id take the pony back and be done with it, rather than win the case, and the pony be in the hands of a person who would stoop so low as to drag you through court and make you responsible for their wrong-doings. 

Some of us horse folk are soft hearted and will take a loss for the ultimate happiness of horses, others still love horses, were all in it for the love of the horse!….but business is business and where theres a legal wrong, it is to be fought in court. Neither decision is wrong. Its down to the person, and their circumstances.

Have a chat with a good equine solicitor and they’ll help give you a realistic idea of your chances in court. Then you can weigh it all up.


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## Equi (19 November 2021)

You have not answered the question ycbm is asking - have you sold any other horses?


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## Lindylouanne (19 November 2021)

Equi said:



			You have not answered the question ycbm is asking - have you sold any other horses?
		
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#41 OP states it is only horse she has sold in the last two years.


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## Pearlsasinger (19 November 2021)

OP the best thing you can do is instruct a solicitor to deal with this for you.  Yes it will entail a cost but your solicitor may be able to recover the cots from the purchaser.  When you mention 'your farm', that makes me wonder if the judge thinks that the sale was part of farm business.


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## ycbm (19 November 2021)

Lindylouanne said:



			#41 OP states it is only horse she has sold in the last two years.
		
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No,  she didn't.  She said yes it is a private sale. She doesn't answer when asked if she has sold  any others, which is why I asked it twice. It now seems she owns a farm (the trial was at "my farm")and it seems likely this has been deemed a business sale in the context of that.  The judge's behaviour makes no sense in any other context.  "Fit for purpose" is irrelevant in a private sale.


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## ycbm (19 November 2021)

jo.stock said:



			Thank you so much it’s the pony I feel for I really did think I found him the most perfect Home
		
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If you really feel for the pony the answer is to buy him back, get him right and find him a better home.

When you contact the vets be sure you are clear that you will want them to produce a written report to be presented in court and that you don't actually own the pony that is under dispute that they are supposed to examine and that two parties will be responsible for the bill.    I will be quite surprised if you can get one to quote,  never mind three.
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## paddy555 (19 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			When you contact the vets be sure you are clear that you will want them to produce a written report to be presented in court and that you don't actually own the pony that is under dispute that they are supposed to examine and that two parties will be responsible for the bill.    I will be quite surprised if you can get one to quote,  never mind three.
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I expect they will want a substantial payment up front from each party as the vet's practice won't know either party.


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## ycbm (19 November 2021)

Dupe.


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## Xmas lucky (20 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			No,  she didn't.  She said yes it is a private sale. She doesn't answer when asked if she has sold  any others, which is why I asked it twice. It now seems she owns a farm (the trial was at "my farm")and it seems likely this has been deemed a business sale in the context of that.  The judge's behaviour makes no sense in any other context.  "Fit for purpose" is irrelevant in a private sale.
		
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Your accusing the op of being a dealer without any proof . That’s very odd behavior coming from someone who apparently doesn’t these people. Something doesn’t add up with this type of post I bet you know the buyers because you certainly wouldn’t just randomly go defending a buyer.


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## Bob notacob (20 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			No,  she didn't.  She said yes it is a private sale. She doesn't answer when asked if she has sold  any others, which is why I asked it twice. It now seems she owns a farm (the trial was at "my farm")and it seems likely this has been deemed a business sale in the context of that.  The judge's behaviour makes no sense in any other context.  "Fit for purpose" is irrelevant in a private sale.
		
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Unfortunately that is not entirely true. For any contract ,private or business, there must be mutual consideration. Both party's must receive something of value to them . (lord  Scarman,s decision on Hong Kong fir shipping v Kawasaki Kisen Kaisha 1962) . I would argue that the buyer bought a young immature horse with the prospect of maturing either into a beautiful swan or an ugly duck . The buyer chose not to get professional advice as to the likelihood of swan versus Duck. Their choice. Duty of care , you did advise them to do this. Did the buyer get something of value. Yes ,because they bought the potential for a good horse cheap as a youngster. They did not buy a proven  mature riding horse.  Incidentally ,horses are not recognised as agriculture ,and therefore not part of a farming business.
    Bottom line however ,is how much will it cost you for this problem to go away ,and is it worth the stress and pain it might cause you. I can only give you bad advice on this point ,as my natural inclination is to go to court and rip peoples throats out. My Bad (though over the years it seems I have been remarkably good at it)


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## Bob notacob (20 November 2021)

Lucky101 said:



			Your accusing the op of being a dealer without any proof . That’s very odd behavior coming from someone who apparently doesn’t these people. Something doesn’t add up with this type of post I bet you know the buyers because you certainly wouldn’t just randomly go defending a buyer.
		
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???? These are exactly the questions I would also be asking, because sell more than 3 cars (or horses )a year and you are a dealer. It is vitally important to determine the status of the seller ,because it determines whether sale of goods act or consumer protection  applies . Without this ,all advice is meaningless.


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## Pebble101 (20 November 2021)

Bob notacob said:



			???? These are exactly the questions I would also be asking, because sell more than 3 cars (or horses )a year and you are a dealer. It is vitally important to determine the status of the seller ,because it determines whether sale of goods act or consumer protection  applies . Without this ,all advice is meaningless.
		
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I was involved in a case and the specialist equine solicitor told me that it doesn't matter how many horses the vendor sold, it was buying with the intention of selling  that made her a dealer even if it was just one.  In OP's case it doesn't appear she bought the horse with the intention of selling it on so I would have thought this was a private sale (although I am only going on what has been disclosed here).


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## ycbm (20 November 2021)

Pebble101 said:



			I was involved in a case and the specialist equine solicitor told me that it doesn't matter how many horses the vendor sold, it was buying with the intention of selling  that made her a dealer even if it was just one.  In OP's case it doesn't appear she bought the horse with the intention of selling it on so I would have thought this was a private sale.
		
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I'm not sure that works both ways,  though.  If it's one horse,  buying with the intention of selling at a profit makes you a dealer,  but it's very,  very difficult to prove that.  Buying a horse for personal use in spring and selling it in autumn doesn't, I think,   make you a dealer,  and some people do that.  

But if a person has sold 3 in a year and either kept them a short time or, as in this case,  bought a young horse which would increase in value as it aged,  then conversely it's going to be very,  very difficult for them to insist that they did not buy with the intention of selling and they are likely to be found to be a dealer in court,  I would have thought.  
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## ycbm (20 November 2021)

Lucky101 said:



			Your accusing the op of being a dealer without any proof . That’s very odd behavior coming from someone who apparently doesn’t these people. Something doesn’t add up with this type of post I bet you know the buyers because you certainly wouldn’t just randomly go defending a buyer.
		
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I'm not accusing her of anything,  I'm asking for more information. I do not know the buyers, I know exactly as much about this as you do, unless you know the seller?

I'm not defending the buyer,  if anything I'm defending the law.  Which do you think is more likely,  the judge is an idiot who doesn't know the law,  or the seller has been deemed by the court to be a dealer,  even if she isn't?

Whatever,  she has disappeared and seems to have no intention of telling us how many horses she has sold from her farm.

I hope that's because she's found herself a lawyer because if she's been deemed a dealer when she isn't one then she needs a lawyer.   Though it would probably be cheaper just to buy the pony she says she still cares about back.  
.


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## Pebble101 (20 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			I'm not sure that works both ways,  though.  If it's one horse,  buying with the intention of selling at a profit makes you a dealer,  but it's very,  very difficult to prove that.  Buying a horse for personal use in spring and selling it in autumn doesn't, I think,   make you a dealer,  and some people do that. 

But if a person has sold 3 in a year and either kept them a short time or, as in this case,  bought a young horse which would increase in value as it aged,  then conversely it's going to be very,  very difficult for them to insist that they did not buy with the intention of selling and they are likely to be found to be a dealer in court,  I would have thought. 
.
		
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Agree that it's really difficult to prove.  In my case it was the first horse she had purchased to bring on and sell.


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## ycbm (20 November 2021)

Pebble101 said:



			Agree that it's really difficult to prove.  In my case it was the first horse she had purchased to bring on and sell.
		
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Anyone who posts on social media that they've bought a "project horse"  needs to realise that they have immediately defined themselves as a dealer.  For the record,  I hope very much that Joe will stay with me! 
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## paddy555 (20 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			For the record,  I hope very much that Joe will stay with me!
.
		
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not sure what your problem is, I would guess half of the forum would be in the queue to buy him.


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## CanteringCarrot (20 November 2021)

OP, please speak to a proper equine solicitor. While some of this advice may come from a food place on this thread, much of it is uninformed, incorrect, and/or doesn't apply to you on particular. Your head is probably spinning enough, never mind all of the "noise" in this thread. So sorry you're in this situation, I wish the best for you and the pony.


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## neddy man (20 November 2021)

OP had owned the pony she sold for 2 years (2yrs to 4yrs old) so yes it was a project, but not a quick get it jumping / hunting/showing  sell it on for ?k profit like a dealer would, and she sold it due to her health and the pony needing a job to do that she was unable to fulfill. I don't think that will class her as a dealer, but the question of how many others she has sold, (that she has not replied to yet) can change opinions.


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## splashgirl45 (4 December 2021)

looking at OP's post even if she was a dealer i dont see that she was in the wrong.  the buyers had a good trial of the pony and declined to have it vetted and it has been unsettled after moving twice in quick succession and then injured itself.  many horses are unsettled when they move and its down to the new owner to manage,  this also was a youngster who had lived in the same place for 2 years and mares are usually more sensitive than geldings so im not surprised she was unsettled....no fault of the seller either private or dealer


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## Amymay (4 December 2021)

Be great to know if there was any update on this.


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## Fred66 (5 December 2021)

OP should check her house insurance as it may well have legal cover.


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## ycbm (5 December 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			looking at OP's post even if she was a dealer i dont see that she was in the wrong.  the buyers had a good trial of the pony and declined to have it vetted and it has been unsettled after moving twice in quick succession and then injured itself.  many horses are unsettled when they move and its down to the new owner to manage,  this also was a youngster who had lived in the same place for 2 years and mares are usually more sensitive than geldings so im not surprised she was unsettled....no fault of the seller either private or dealer
		
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If she has been classed as a dealer then she had a legal obligation to take the pony  back if he wasn't fit for purpose when sold, which doesn't exist if she is a private seller.  

She disappeared when pressed on owning a farm and the number of horses she has sold from that farm.  

I don't think we're ever going to find out what happens on this one.  
.


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## Rowreach (5 December 2021)

I hope that she just stopped looking at a whole load of conflicting advice and opinions from forum "experts" and found herself a decent equine solicitor.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (5 December 2021)

Amymay in a manger said:



			Be great to know if there was any update on this.
		
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^^^ Don't hold your breath........ the fact the OP has seemingly disappeared off the planet when pressed on certain issues certainly speaks volumes does it not and suggests strongly that there actually was something about as fishy as a dead mackerel about the whole thing.......


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## Velcrobum (5 December 2021)

OP has not logged on since 23rd November!


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## milliepops (5 December 2021)

Rowreach said:



			I hope that she just stopped looking at a whole load of conflicting advice and opinions from forum "experts" and found herself a decent equine solicitor.
		
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yep. and if there are legal proceedings going on then  continuing to blab about it on the internet would not be the best idea.


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## splashgirl45 (5 December 2021)

ycbm said:



			If she has been classed as a dealer then she had a legal obligation to take the pony  back if he wasn't fit for purpose when sold, which doesn't exist if she is a private seller. 

She disappeared when pressed on owning a farm and the number of horses she has sold from that farm. 

I don't think we're ever going to find out what happens on this one. 
.
		
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I can see that, but it seems that the pony was as described and they had quite a long while to try her and also have her vetted so I still don’t see, even if classed as a dealer, why she would have to pay vets fees or take the pony back.  We will never know now it seems


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## ycbm (5 December 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			I can see that, but it seems that the pony was as described and they had quite a long while to try her and also have her vetted so I still don’t see, even if classed as a dealer, why she would have to pay vets fees or take the pony back.  We will never know now it seems
		
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My understanding is this.  

The reason why she would have to take him back as a dealer is that the pony has to be "fit for purpose" if sold by a dealer.  The purpose he had to be fit for in this case was to become a riding pony. If the pony had a fault which was there at the time of the sale, then he was not fit for purpose.  The vet inspection is to ascertain whether the pony had a  condition at the time of sale which would later prevent it from becoming a riding pony.  

If the pony was sold privately, then it only has to be "as described". The seller must not tell any lies about the pony,  but isn't even obliged to disclose they have had any problems with it unless the buyer asks.  So it could have been hopping lame all its life but unless the buyer asks "has he ever been lame" and the seller lies,  then the buyer has no comeback even if they manage to find absolute proof that the pony has been lame all its life. 

That's why the story as we've been told by the seller only seems to make sense if she has been deemed to be a dealer.  If she is actually a private seller, she'll have a hell of a fight on her hands to prove she's not a dealer and defend this case.  It would be almost certainly be cheaper just to buy the pony back.  

I hope we do eventually get an update where we find out that she won her case,  because as an occasional - private - seller these threads scare me half to death! 
.


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