# Genetic difference between flaxen maned chesnut and palomino?



## TangoCurly (25 August 2009)

hello!

What is the difference genetically between a flaxen maned chesnut and a palomino?  My filly Curly is out of a flaxen maned dark chesnut with blonde highlights in her tail ... 

Chika






...by a 'bright red' chesnut, but yet she has a flaxen mane and tail and looks quite 'palomino' to me.

Curly






Is Curly just a pale chesnut with a metallic golden sheen with flaxen mane and tail, or is the flaxen gene a mild version of a dilution and is she a tad palomino?

bye!


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## Violet (25 August 2009)

A true Palomino got white mane and tail.

You might find this helpful.
Palomino colour genetics


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## KarynK (25 August 2009)

Flaxen is a gene on its own that lightens the mane of a Chestnut, its thought to be a recessive gene so you would need two copies of it before it showed.  This gene has not be identified as yet so this is still theory!

Palomino is a result of one copy of the cream gene working on a chestnut coat.  Its a dilution gene so it dilutes the chestnut shade all over and for some reason turns the mane to white or very light blonde.  There is a genetic test for cream done from mane or tail hair.

Cream is dominant (if its there it will show on a chestnut coat) so one parent would have to a cream gene or two for a palomino foal to be born, so your filly cannot be a palomino coming from the two chestnut parents. 

Thats the simple version!!!


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## TangoCurly (25 August 2009)

Aha, so it looks like she can neither be palomino nor flaxen maned then!  that is what i had thought was the case, in that one of her parents would have to be palomino for her to be palomino and both her parents would have to be flaxen for her to be flaxen.  Her sire (It's Without Doubt) was definitely not flaxen.

In that case, what on earth is she (other than cute and fluffy)?

bye!


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## KarynK (25 August 2009)

Because flaxen is a recessive gene it can "hide"  you need 2 copies before it will show, it's the same as a chestnut coat colour gene, where two bay parents produce a chestnut.

So both parents would have to either be flaxen or carry a copy without showing it, which is highly possible.  

There is also another dilution which is called Champagne, On a chestnut Champagne will give the sheen you describe but it is a dominant so it would have to be from the mare and she would have to have the sheen too.  Golden Champagne's will have dark pink and sometimes mottled skin.

My money is on a chestnut with flaxen!   Out of interest was the filly born flaxen, can quite see, if not at what age did she go blonde?  I have a flaxen and she did not show real blond until her foal coat moult at about 4 mts.


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## TangoCurly (25 August 2009)

hello!

Curly had a ginger mane and tail when born, here is a piccie of her at 12hrs old






Looking back at photos, her mane and tail started to change colour when she was about 3-4 months old, at the foal coat change as you saw with your flaxen one.

Both Curly and Chika have mottled skin - pink with black spots all over it, particularly obvious under the tail.  Curly also has a birdcatcher spot on her left shoulder as her only white mark.  i wonder if actually Curly and Chika have champagne in them, Curly really looks very metallic,and more yellow or gold rather than red.  chika is a darker chesnut, not liver chesnut, but that side of 'red'.  Her coat also looks very very shiny and has a metallic sheen to it too.  Her sire is Radway Ptarmigan who is listed as been black/brown and her dam has no colour listed but the damsire is listed as brown.

This is all fascinating stuff, thanks for all your help.


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## TangoCurly (25 August 2009)

I've just found this photo of Curly about 12hrs after birth.  Hopefully you can see she had blue eyes and a mottled nose.  her nose is still a bit mottled, but her eyes are brown now.


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## ColourFan (25 August 2009)

Both are probably flaxen chestnuts.
Neither are palomino NOR Gold Champagnes.

Palomino is a single dilution of the cream gene on chestnut; it is a partial dominant as in double dilution it gives a totally different phenotype;  one of the parents must be a cream carrier;  foals are born in a rosey pink colouring and this colour deepening each year until they are +/- 4 years old at which time they have their adult colouring;  eyes after 6 months are also a shade of brown (foals maybe born with 'baby blues').
Neither of the foals above are palomino as the coat and mane colouring is too red.

Gold Champagne is a single dilution of the champagne gene on chestnut; it is a complete dominant as in double dilution it gives the same phenotype;  one of the parents must be a champagne carrier;  foals are born in a light orangey pink colouring and this colour lightens each year until they are +/- 4 years old at which time they have their adult colouring;  the metalic shines is usually only visible with the adult colouring;  foals are born with usually 'baby blues' but colour to shades of hazel, amber or green.
Neither of the foals above are gold champagne as the coat and mane colouring is too red.

In pic below as an example of foal colouring difference between chestnut and gold champagne:  
left foal = gold champagne
middle foal = chestnut
right foal = gold champage overo
http://www.double-j-paints.com/fotoalbum_2004/p7hg_img_1/fullsize/011_fs.jpg






same chestnut foal out of downy foal hair:
http://www.double-j-paints.com/veulens_h...e/Penny3_fs.jpg

Sire of the two Gold Champagne foals = Zippin N Investments, standing at Double-J-Paints, the Netherlands
http://www.double-j-paints.com/zippin_n_investments/foto_album/p7hg_img_1/fullsize/zeek_006_fs.jpg


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## KarynK (25 August 2009)

Just so that we don't confuse anyone on an already complicated subject, a dominant gene cannot be carried, if it is present then its effects will be seen.


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## Blanche (27 August 2009)

TangoCurly , you can get a palomino foal from non palomino parents . I'm not sure thats what you were inferring in one of your posts above but just wanted to clarify . One example I know of  is Imaginary Gold bred by Sheldak Ranch of North Dakota . He is by Imaginate-chestnut out of Kiss Of Heaven-buckskin (sadly put down this year due to bad foaling) .


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## KarynK (27 August 2009)

Yes you can get a palomino from other colours, but what you cannot get is a Palomino from two chestnuts, One parent must have a cream gene.  The reason Imaginary Gold is a Palomino is that he inherited a copy of the cream gene from Kiss of Heaven (buckskin is a single cream over a bay base coat) but she also carried a chestnut gene which she passed to him. So he is chestnut plus 1 cream = Palomino.

Out of interest there is a lot of confusion still in the USA over some of those registered as Buckskins and Palominos due to another rare recessive colour factor called Peal or The Barlink Factor.  This is a weird one in that with a single copy in solid colours it gives sheen to the coat but a homozygous pearl will mimic a palomino or buckskin, though paler.   This could be along the lines of what you see in the akhal teke.  But when pearl meats another dilute gene like a Champagne or a single cream gene  it will amplify its affect turning the horse into a perlino/cremello look alike.


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