# Dummy foals



## Amos (7 April 2011)

I happened to switch on to marestare last night and came across a foaling that had just occurred. The foal, although obviously alive, looks to me to be brain damaged. It can lift its head which wobbles from side to side, but that is all. Even this morning, 15 hours later, it is in the same state, making no attempt to get up/fed etc. It can move its legs but not in an organised manner. The owners are having to feed it as it just lies there. My question is: Is this a dummy foal? How long does one carry on in this situation. I personally feel it looks a lost cause, but then I'm not there and don't know the facts. How long would you carry on?


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## rachi0 (7 April 2011)

Going on what you have described.. it sounds like it is a dummy foal!

They aren't a lost cause, just take a lot of nursing and care!! (the severe dummy foals - those that have seizures and end up being on respirators usually end up dying but I do know of some that go on to being healthy happy horses! - mild dummies or the less severe ones you can usually nurse through.. it just takes a while for their brain to engage, and with the help of some drugs, that usually works!!!)

severe dummies cost a lot to nurse though!


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## madlady (7 April 2011)

I'd have a vet out to check and then do whatever was appropriate but I wouldn't want that situation to carry on for even 24hours if the foal wasn't getting any better.


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## amy_b (7 April 2011)

I dot have experience in this but I read abit about this a couple of weeks ago and most of what I read said with care, nursing and vets they can be normal in 2 days or so...


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## cruiseline (7 April 2011)

I have been watching too and the lady is doing a fabulous job of supporting the foal during these early days. She has not left its side for almost 24 hours now. I hope it pulls through it looks like a lovely foal.


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## Amos (7 April 2011)

Yes, it's very sad to see. They seem to have had a very bad time of it this year - lets hope this one is OK.


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## cruiseline (7 April 2011)

Amos said:



			Yes, it's very sad to see.
		
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 I admire them for keeping the camera going, as I look at it as a very good education for all those breeding horses, this sort of thing could happen to anyone.

I wish them the best.


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## RuthnMeg (7 April 2011)

Link so I can see?
Thanks


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## cruiseline (7 April 2011)

Here is the link, but I give a ********WARNING*********  please do not watch if you are going to get upset by this case, there are certain aspect of a (suspected) dummy foal that might be upsetting to some. I also would like to add that the people dealing with the foal are doing 'EVERYTHING BY THE BOOK'. As I have stated previously for an educational point of view this is a very interesting cam to watch. 

http://www.marestare.com/fcam.php?alias=mrun3


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## brighteyes (7 April 2011)

I have a puppy cam?  Oh no, it's a mini.  She has just laid down with foal and helper...


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## cruiseline (7 April 2011)

brighteyes said:



			I have a puppy cam?  Oh no, it's a mini.  She has just laid down with foal and helper...
		
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I know the mare has been an absolute super star, standing rock still to be milked and watching over her baby like a doting mummy. It was so sweet earlier this morning, the mare was lay down with her head on the blanket covering her baby.

I really hope the foal pulls through for all concerned, I am sending (((((((((hundreds of vibes)))))))))))))) their way.


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## Amos (7 April 2011)

I didn't post a link because I didn't want this post to turn out to be a "lets jump on the band wagon and have a go" type thing. 

It is distressing but as said they haven't left its side and are doing all they can. I personally think that cameras should be left on good or bad as it's a brilliant way of learning.


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## georgie0 (7 April 2011)

Really interesting, I've never come across this before.
Found this article for anyone who is interested;
http://www.cyberhorse.net.au/cgi-bin/tve/displaynewsitem.pl?20060525dummyfoal.txt


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## Amos (7 April 2011)

So apparantly the foal (colt) had a break in an umbilical artery and was oxygen/blood deprived. So I guess that isn't the same as a dummy foal and is by all accounts a lot more serious??? Poor little chap.


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## Mocha (7 April 2011)

This is the dummy foal of a 11h mare that was bought infoal to an unknown (probably much bigger stallion) 

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v445/Rips/?action=view&current=Movie-1.mp4


He was a sweet little fella and he could suck and sit up as you can see...






But he was never going to stand. 

The mare disowned him from birth and he was PTS a week later. (the vet BTW advised PTS sooner but the owner wanted to persist) it was distressing for the mare who wasn't well handled and of no advantage to anyone really.

He was turned frequently (was better on one side then the other) and even could stand while assisted.


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## Rollin (7 April 2011)

I tried the link Cruiseline (waiting for a foal and paranoid as usual) and got a puppy cam.


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## cruiseline (7 April 2011)

Rollin said:



			I tried the link Cruiseline (waiting for a foal and paranoid as usual) and got a puppy cam.
		
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It does say puppy cam on the title page, but wait until it loads as it is a mini foal.


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## rachi0 (7 April 2011)

We had a few dummies last year. 1 was put down - having survived seizures, and being on a respirator - we tried to foster him onto a new mare (his dam wasn't very happy about being in the vets and got quite aggressive and started to dry up!) - foster mare wasn't overly keen on him, although was good and tolerated him - but he caught a bladder infection which unfortunately damaged his bladder too badly and so was PTS. Simple Simon (RIP) he was such a fighter!!!

We had another one that had a very tough time, red bag foaling, meconium stained foal, - mare had severe placentitis - placenta was disgusting and weighed 12kg (mare showed no signs of placentitis).. foal given oxygen, was breathing on its own, heart rate ok.. took it into the vets, it started to seize, went downhill, took a few days to develop the suck reflex and and be able to stand, but it was a fighter and survived. Came home on meds and was like a normal foal!

Another one.. this was pretty cool!!! She was a first foal, it was a tight birth, took a bit of getting out.. foal given oxygen - stood and nursed.. the next morning, foal was a bit vague. Had to get the foal up to remind it to nurse more and more frequently as the day went on. Had the vet to look at it and I had notice some oedema on her chest between her front legs. Vet said nothing to worry about, keep checking her. Called her back and hour later, her hind fetlocks had filled. pulled a blood.. waited for results to come back... an hour later.. hocks were now filled. Vet came back stifles filled. (just the joints not the whole limb) - bloods showed poor kidney function. Catheterised the foal, took a urine sample, took her into the vets for more tests and treatment!! She was lucky that the kidney necrosis wasn't too bad and the good thing was that she could pass urine she's now weaned and a right cracker!!!

Not all dummies are a lost cause. they do cost a fair bit of money to treat when its a severe case! also take lots of time and observation


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## alfiesmum (7 April 2011)

that to me looks very worrying 

good luck to them and their little foal x


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## Stinkbomb (7 April 2011)

May i ask what is probably a stuopid question on here, but what exactly is a dummy foal??

Poor mite, sending positive vibes


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## cruiseline (7 April 2011)

Here is some information for those interested


"Most 'dummy foals' go through a twilight period where everything seems fine and the foal seems healthy.  Then, between 24 and 48 hours, the foal slowly spirals downward," said Dr. Margo MacPherson, D.V.M., M.S., of the Equine Veterinary Hospital at the University of Florida. 

Today, the most accurate clinical name for "Dummy Foal Syndrome" has been identified as Hypoxic Ischemic Encephalopathy (HIE), although it was also referred to as Maladjustment Foal Syndrome in the past.  According to the Rood and Riddle Veterinary Hospital, HIE is one of the most common diseases of the foal, and has been for years. 

The cause of HIE is parturition induced, meaning it is caused through birth.  There are several occurrences that can cause a foal to acquire HIE during the pregnancy or birth.  Placental infection causes a majority of the known cases of HIE, but premature placental separation, an extremely slow delivery and septicemia are all causes.   

Other causes can be maternal anemia, lung or cardiovascular disease in the mare, low blood pressure in the mare or foal, placental insufficiency (which can be caused when a mare carries twins full-term), placental thickening or oxytocin induction of labor. 

"Basically, Hypoxic Eschemic Encephalopathy occurs when the foal does not get enough oxygen to the brain during the latter part of the pregnancy or during birth," MacPherson explained.  "It is one of the most common conditions when speaking of abnormal foals, which is an uncommon thing.  HIE is also one of the most treatable conditions, unless Septicemia (blood poisoning) sets in." 

According to MacPherson, there is no way to prevent HIE, but there are ways to catch it earlier, such as to be present at the birth of the foal.  Although there are some cases where nothing can be done to prevent the cause of HIE, notifying a vet of any abnormalities greatly increases your chance of saving the foal.  A good way to try to catch HIE before the foal is born is to know the history of the mare.  If the mare has had placental infections in the past, she should be regularly checked for such infections (and treated) during her pregnancy.  It should also be noted with the attending veterinarian if the mare has a history of premature placental separation. 

"If the mare goes through a particularly long or difficult labor, the mare owner should call the vet immediately," MacPherson said.  "By notifying the vet right away, he or she can watch the foal very closely for any symptoms and can treat them right away. 

"The problem is that many people think the foal is just sleepy.  They think it is cute that the foal sleeps the whole day and they don't realize that there is a problem and therefore do not call the vet.  If HIE is treated right away, it is a very controllable and treatable condition." 

Foals with Hypoxic Eschemic Encephalopathy are treated symptomatically.  The most common symptoms of this condition are excessive sleepiness, not eating and head pressing.  Not all foals experience these exact symptoms, however.  Symptoms can range from mild depression to severe seizure activity. 

While the symptoms may seem to only affect the attitude of the foal, HIE can also suggest severe internal problems as well.  A lack of oxygen at birth affects the entire body, so it is important to have foals with HIE completely checked for other disorders, such as intestinal problems, kidney failure or abnormal heart rhythms. 

"One of the most basic and most effective ways to treat foals with HIE is to simply support the foal until they get over it," MacPherson said.  This involves getting the foal to stand up and move around regularly, feeding the foal if you cannot coax it to nurse and keeping your veterinarian constantly involved in the first few days to monitor any changes. 

"If managed, the majority of foals with HIE will live through the disease with no permanent side effects.  I consider these foals the most treatable foals, as long as they are managed symptomatically by a veterinarian."


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## rachi0 (7 April 2011)

A dummy foal is a foal that was more than likely oxygen deprived close to or during birth. The symptoms vary, but usually, signs are, not able to stand, not able to nurse, they are rather vague, not following the mare.. there's quite a lot of info if you google!


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## Stinkbomb (7 April 2011)

Thankyou.. How sad  The foal has lovely markings too. Hope it survives


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## micramadam (8 April 2011)

Been watching this this morning. Poor little thing and I admire and respect the owners for what they're doing. 
Question Am I imagining things or does the foal seem to be soothed when stroked and petted?


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## cruiseline (8 April 2011)

micramadam said:



			Been watching this this morning. Poor little thing and I admire and respect the owners for what they're doing. 
Question Am I imagining things or does the foal seem to be soothed when stroked and petted?
		
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I have been watching too, I think you might be right, it does look like he (I think its a boy) enjoys the interaction. I too admire the owners, they have never left his side for more than a few minutes since his birth. If he is a dummy foal, hopefully they will see some improvement over the next 24 hours or so. He seems to be doing all the usual things pooping, peeing and drinking his milk.

Fingers crossed for both the baby and his owners, they all seem to be fighters.


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## JanetGeorge (8 April 2011)

I've had one Dummy foal - a colt from a maiden mare.  He is now a happy, healthy rising 4 year old who is giving his new owner a hell of a lot of fun - and amazing everyone who meets him by his impeccable behaviour!  Although stallion and mare both had good temperaments, I believe this youngster's impeccable behaviour and total unflappability are due to the enormous amount of handling he had in his first week - including iv drips, stomach-tubing etc.  Most of them can be saved - you just have to spot them quickly enough or infection (due to lack of colostrum) or starvation will kill them.


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## ritajennings (8 April 2011)

This was a dummy foal





She was then orphaned at 4 weeks of age and survived to tell the tale.
Fingers crossed for this little fellow, Gloria (pictured) was put on a drip and improved with 12 hours, she went on to give me two lovely healthy foals herself.


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## amage (8 April 2011)

yay he has just been raising his head and reaching around to scratch himself!!


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## HashRouge (8 April 2011)

I hope he makes it, he's such a cutie!
I too really admire his owners/ carers. They're very dedicated and they must be exhausted by now


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## coco331 (8 April 2011)

When was this foalie born and when would you expect to see a dummy foal attempting to stand by itself or at least hold its head up? I've read through some articles but they don't seem to give a time scale, I guess every case is different though.


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## Amos (8 April 2011)

The foal was born on Wed about 4pm. It was a perfect delivery but suffered a break in an umbilical artery. Not sure that makes it a dummy foal. Seems to be getting stronger but I have to say at this stage it hasn't made enough recovery for me (IMO) to hold out much hope. Such a shame as they really have not left its side.


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## micramadam (8 April 2011)

Things don't look good. She's having to syringe the milk into him now.


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## HashRouge (8 April 2011)

He seems so much more active than when I last looked, but just has no interest in getting to his feet. Does anyone know when he should start standing up if this is going to end well? When would it be time for the owners to let him go? 
I have everything crossed for him as he's so cute and they are taking such good care of him.


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## rachi0 (8 April 2011)

Each foal is different. I have had a few dummies that didn't stand for almost a week, others within a day.


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## GrumpyHero (8 April 2011)

aw he's trying to get up! i think. either that or hes just squirming around


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## HashRouge (9 April 2011)

Can anyone explain the way he nods his head a lot? Is that normal in a dummy foal?


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## GrumpyHero (9 April 2011)

HashRouge said:



			Can anyone explain the way he nods his head a lot? Is that normal in a dummy foal?
		
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i was also wondering about this ..


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## JanetGeorge (9 April 2011)

HashRouge said:



			Can anyone explain the way he nods his head a lot? Is that normal in a dummy foal?
		
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Yes - a lot of them do that!  Some also 'bark' - a very harsh coughing sound - which is why they are also referred to as Barker foals.

The wierd thing about this syndrome is that it inevitably gets better after a week (assuming you've managed to keep them alive that long.)  Mine was still poorly, not sucking, recumbent, floppy and sometimes almost lifeless at 6 days - and on day 7 he was rootling around looking for the milkbar!


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## shirleyno2 (9 April 2011)

I had one last year that sounds the same as rachi0 2nd one listed above, foaled 5 weeks early. I bottle fed her for 3 days then she started to suckle herself, within another week she was grand, she a fraction smaller than she should be but little ripper now!


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## FanyDuChamp (9 April 2011)

I am really rooting for this little foal, hope it makes it as its mum has been very good and the owners are trying really hard. 
FDC


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## Allover (9 April 2011)

Does anyone know what is going on , is the foal ok, the link would not work for a while and now it is back on but showing 4 screens and not in the stable?


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## AML (9 April 2011)

Sadly the decision was made to put Will to sleep earlier today.

RIP little one


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## Allover (9 April 2011)

Such a shame, the poor mum and owners


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## cruiseline (9 April 2011)

AML said:



			Sadly the decision was made to put Will to sleep earlier today.

RIP little one
		
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Oh no, that is such a shame, he really was a little fighter. It certainly looked like he was given every chance, his minders did a superb job. 

RIP Will

Condolences to all those concerned


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## Amos (9 April 2011)

Such a shame


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## FanyDuChamp (9 April 2011)

RIP Will, you were truly beautiful.

Best wishes to those who helped him in his short life. 
FDC


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## Gucci_b (9 April 2011)

So very sad for the owners, i did start to watch him the last few days and I did'nt see much of a change in him, the mare never left his side.  
You just never know how nature will deal the cards


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## Dizzle (9 April 2011)

When a foal is born, they are born with certain natural 'instincts', to stand, to gallop, to aim for a "dark spot" and to suckle when they get there.

Dummy foals don't seem to have these natural instincts and just seem to sit there in a trance like state, they have to be helped to undertaken these simple tasks that should be natural urges in the wild. Most foals make a full recovery.

It's usually seen in tb foals.


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## HashRouge (10 April 2011)

RIP Will


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