# Home barefoot rehab support for someone please



## ycbm (14 December 2016)

I got the following message from someone who is concerned that the forum is still a bit Wild West about barefoot and that people might criticise. Please help me prove them  wrong. I don't know everything and I don't like giving one to one advice to people without seeing the horse. I hope they will forgive me posting this for them, I have anonymised it.








   I was wondering if I could possibly pick your brains with regards to one of my horses.

        Since early this year he has been off on one of his hinds and one of his fronts.

        We seem to have the hind end issues sorted, but as a result he is more lame on his fronts, picked up by Vet in September as a shoeing issue.

        Different Vet has sorted the hind end, but now wants him shod with bars, pads and wedges. I want to take him barefoot, he is absolutely against me doing this, as is my partner.

        The initial problem I will have with going against the Vet is that I will be seeing him monthly for follow ups. I'm a stubborn git, so not worried at all about him being cross, more that I don't want to upset him as I still want him to continue with the hind end issues. I have recently changed farriers, new farrier is great, probably couldn't give two hoots, as in whatever I decide to do he will be fine with.

        At the moment he is in at night and turned out in a sand arena in the daytime. He has oat chaff and high fibre haylage to eat. He is a native x tb and a very good doer.

        My questions are, do I need to change the diet before taking barefoot. He is lame so I don't think I could do anything with regards to exercise/conditioning his feet just yet. I am in a place that's pretty much frozen all winter, should I wait till Spring to take the shoes off? Would you get the feet trimmed or leave well alone for a bit? Do I keep him in until he is comfortable enough to go in the arena?

        Sorry for this very long message and loads of questions. I feel so strongly that unless I do this I will be looking at pts within a year. Because I am going to get zero support I need as much information as I can before doing it.

        There is probably loads more stuff that I can't think of at the moment.


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## ycbm (14 December 2016)

You are absolutely right to go down this route. Bar shoes crush the heels even more and are unlikely to provide long term relief.

PM me if you need to with the answers to any questions people ask. 

What issues have been diagnosed with the hind end lameness?

Do you have access to safe flat tarmac roads?  Do you have enough daylight time to walk the horse out on them if so?

Is the arena useable in hard frost?

Diet sounds good but is the chaff molassed? I would add one of the 'barefoot' supplements, personal I recommend ProHoof from progressive earth, sold on eBay, but there are others.


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## Nugget La Poneh (14 December 2016)

Changing the diet can be done at the same time as going barefoot. If you have the support of the farrier, then that is half the battle but he will need to be aware that the hoof shouldn't be dressed for taking a shoe, so if he's not used to doing remedial barefooting he might need to read up or seek advice.

The post reads as if not in the UK, or if is, in the furthest far-flung place so how restricted on feed stuffs is the OP? I'm never really convinced about high-fibre haylage, as it still seems to have a high rye content. I also think that for horses already with issues, it can make the gut unhappy which makes the feet worse. But that admittedly is based on issues with my horse.

Rockley is very good resource, and I would also say that if a horse is considered sound enough to be turned out, then it is sound enough to be walked in hand. This will help with the horses mental health, and will help get the feet back on track, even if hoof boots are needed.

Give barefoot a go, be mindful of the vet's opinion, but it is your horse. If PTS really is on the cards, than you have nothing to lose by trying barefoot (but be aware its rarely a quick process, and the diet/exercise is for life, regardless of barefoot or shod).


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## FfionWinnie (14 December 2016)

You don't need to cow tow to the vet. The vet is employed by you and does not know everything. No one does. Get a new vet if you're that worried. Tell them you are going to turn the horse away without shoes for a few months if you don't want to get a new vet or stand up to the current vet. 

Feed a low sugar and starch diet and crack on. Horses have been walking on their own feet for hundreds of years. It's nothing new and it's not even difficult for most horses. Pull the shoes, exercise him to what he can do comfortably (that could be minutes with boots on on a soft surface or it could be ten mins walking without boots on tarmac building it up gradually). Let him self trim, make his own feet. Worry less. Enjoy your horse.


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## ponypatters (14 December 2016)

Don't let anyone put you off barefoot is all I would say, get doing some research and make up your own mind.  Diet and exercise are super important as is finding a barefoot trimmer who can help advise/guide.  Shoeing Heels or wedges never works for long (I can attest to that !) and can never be a long term remedy, try barefoot at least, you have nothing to lose !!  You are just going to have to man up and say NO, I am doing this my own way. People annoyingly frown at barefoot, but you have got to try something before you knock it, and most people have never tried it.  My lame sports horse is just so so much better without shoes and his feet look great and he is well on the way to soundness, barefoot works.


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## paddi22 (14 December 2016)

I have one im thinking of doing barefoot with. At the moment she is fed hay, oats, the bluegrass oat balancer with biotin, flax and beetpulp. Would her diet make it difficult for her to be worked barefoot?  I'm fairly clueless about the sugar content in feed!


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## JillA (14 December 2016)

My vet had serious reservations about a rehabilitating laminitic transitioning from heart bars to barefoot. He is now completely convinced by a fully sound horse with exceptionally healthy feet.  I sent him a link to the relevant authorities, in my case the Laminitis Site and asked him to discuss with my (very knowledgeable) trimmer. In other words convinced him with experience and expertise, can you not do the same? Maybe enlist a hoof care specialist who does know about barefoot (no disrespect to farriers but they always have the shoeing option at the back of their minds) and talk to Nic at Rockley?
As for diet, again, get expert help - added to trimmers etc there is Sarah at Forageplus, she is very helpful and knowledgeable about mineral supplementation and general barefoot diet. All horses are different, so what works for mine may not work in your case


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## HufflyPuffly (14 December 2016)

It's hard without the support of the vet but definitely a worthwhile thing to try!

I would sort diet out before taking shoes off but then I don't think there is much to change unless the chaff is molassed. 

I'm not sure there is an ideal time of year to take shoes off, I took them off mine in January without too much drama. We took shoes off (ex farrier trimmed them), Doodle went on any surface which she was comfy on (so the school was fine, but as we were re-habbing we stuck to the roads more) and then booted her for anything stoney.

Before shoes came off I had accepted she would be retired, now I have three of the darn things in work and not enough hours in the week :lol:.


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## HeresHoping (14 December 2016)

I will add that it is a journey. It has its ups and downs and moments of frustration. I have doubted myself, cried buckets, and walked 1000s of miles over the last few months. 9 months in and 4 completely new and completely different feet. Yes, I want her frogs to improve - they seem to be taking an age but from a horse that wasn't entirely sound when trotting on the hard (ever) and having lost her super canter and looking suspiciously stiff through the hocks she is now a sound as a pound, big striding Connie. It happened one day in June. The wrinkles around her nose were there one day, and gone the next. She went from looking short in front to huge strides.

You need to find some roads, even if it's for 10 minutes to start off with, lame or not (I see he's not on box rest so movement is possible), and you need to get walking gradually building up. We went from 10 minutes to an hour over 3 months - and yes, I had a lame horse to start off with but I only did as much as she could. You need to find a physio because hamstrings and shoulders will get tight if he's footy. Let his feet grow for the first few months, he'll grow flare and he'll chip off what he doesn't need. As he heals, they'll change again. Jams had a lip on her near fore for a few months. It has now gone. Her toes are much shorter. One front is much rounder than the other, but she's sound. I think the next new complete capsule will bring yet more changes. As you progress, movement is key. I still go walking in the (dark) mornings with her over varying surfaces for 45 minutes. But everything else we do is normal - hacking, schooling, jumping (and on grass, too!).

Finally, I took the decision to strip everything out of her diet and started again with straights and a good mineral supplement. We tried Progressive Earth - she hated it. So we use Equiminns and if the rate at which her mane is growing is anything to go by, it's doing wonderful stuff.


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## Goldenstar (14 December 2016)

I would change the diet now .
I had a great result using the winter performanace balancer from forageplus .
You should buy the Feet First book which is old so disregard the bit about seaweed we know now that's not a great thing to feed .
When you remove shoes don't trim them straight away 
I would consider fibbing to vet .
Get emotional say you can't cope you miserable broke what ever and you are turning the horse away .
Then get the shoes removed and quietly start leading the horse about .
There's mountains of information on BF so get on and read it .
One word of warning you did not say or I missed it what was the hind leg issue if it was the suspenories in hock you must must be careful with self trimming because the toes must never get long so I would be getting the horse checked regularity by the farrier or trimmer .
I know it's not right to lie but TBH if it's easier and saves every bodies face and it gets you the result you want for your horse I would just do it.


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## ITPersonnage (14 December 2016)

GS Interesting about the hind suspensories, mine did hers after one summer barefoot. I put it down to hard/uneven ground and not enough road work but if I'd watched her hind toes a bit more I would have avoided the injury? Would love to hear more about that?


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## PorkChop (14 December 2016)

Hmmm, this was my message to ycbm 

My answers to a few of the questions are -

I have the following surfaces available for rehab, tarmac, gravel, planings, grass, sand arena, indoor arena.  However everything will freeze very soon, surprised it hasn't yet, so sand arena for turnout will not be able to be used, grass might be useable, tarmac will be useable but slippy for a bit, can box to indoor arena.

I have all the time and daylight hours I need.

Oat straw chaff is unmolassed, I use it as she is a fatty so I need to restrict haylage, so as a replacement forage.  Soaking hay isn't an option in the winter as everything freezes, see above!

Farrier is coming on Monday, I have no problem going against the Vet.

Hind leg lameness is/was facet joint disease.  Some of the facet joints have been medicated with good results, but there are more that need to be done, hence I don't want to flounce away from the Vet because I want him to do keep treating her back.  This is a referral Vet, I have three Vets that I use routinely depending on what I want doing.

Front feet have been x-rayed only, not MRI, happy to keep x-raying feet but cannot justify taking her down for an MRI.  Slight navicular changes in the feet, both Vets agree that the front lameness is a shoeing/hoof balance problem.

Front feet lameness has increased now that the hind leg lameness has been sorted, albeit for the minute.

Hocks have been x-rayed, very slight arthritic changes, hocks were medicated originally when first Vet thought that hind lameness was down to this.  May well re medicate hocks when everything else sorted.

All legs scanned and no problems found.  Had muscle biopsy done, all normal.  History of tight hamstrings, much better now that facets have been medicated.

I have a fab physio who comes every 3/4/5 weeks.

So at the minute she is being turned out in sand arena in the day, stabled at night.  If she has been having a hooley in the arena her pulses sometimes come up, arena has plenty of cut in it.  She is super to box rest, but will really gallop around the field, riggin up a small area in the field doesn't work.  So she can stay in, go in sand arena, get taken to indoor arena, or needs turning out in full size field.  She is currently turned out with no company as she will wind the others up because she is not in work, but has contact with them when stabled.

Had her front feet blocked, one at a time, heel first then full hoof, was better but did not block 100%.  But this was before facet disease was discovered.  Had SI medicated, no improvement.

Less lame on soft than hard, worse on a circle.

My husband and I are planning to slow mo video her this week.

She rarely looses shoes, doesn't have brittle feet.

Gosh, sorry long post, thats everything I can think of at the moment.

I have the feet x-rays if anyone wants to see them, can't put them up here because I am useless but I can email them


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## ycbm (14 December 2016)

Fantastic DE. Glad you've posted.

Did you like the sex change  ?   The horse is a mare folks 

I would get the shoes off and see how sensitive she is. Buy boots if necessary. Then start walking in hand on the road, increasing the time till you get to a hour, sound on a straight line, and a heel first landing, then ride.

And straight onto ProHoof, Forage Plus or Equimins. My own preference is ProHoof but I hear good reports of all of them except for palatability with picky horses, where Equimins seems least problematic, but also has less in of stuff which I find essential where I am.


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## PorkChop (14 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			Fantastic DE. Glad you've posted.

Did you like the sex change  ?   The horse is a mare folks 

I would get the shoes off and see how sensitive she is. Buy boots if necessary. Then start walking in hand on the road, increasing the time till you get to a hour, sound on a straight line, and a heel first landing, then ride.

And straight onto ProHoof, Forage Plus or Equimins. My own preference is ProHoof but I hear good reports of all of them except for palatability with picky horses, where Equimins seems least problematic, but also has less in of stuff which I find essential where I am.
		
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Wah!  Thank you 

Can I put the prohoof in grass nuts?  I presume its a powder, shes not picky at all.

If its hard and icy, do I keep her in?  We're a long way off riding I would think


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## ycbm (14 December 2016)

You might need to soak the nuts to get it to stick, but I think they soak well, don't they?

It depends how sensitive her feet are whether you let her out on ruts. You might be able to get her out in boots if she doesn't rub. But a definite no to hobbling about in a field or frozen arena.

If it's only the front feet that will stop you riding, you're possibly no more than a month at from riding in walk


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## PorkChop (14 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			You might need to soak the nuts to get it to stick, but I think they soak well, don't they?

It depends how sensitive her feet are whether you let her out on ruts. You might be able to get her out in boots if she doesn't rub. But a definite no to hobbling about in a field or frozen arena.

If it's only the front feet that will stop you riding, you're possibly no more than a month at from riding in walk 

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Yes, the grass nuts are soaked to be fed, so that sounds ok.

Don't know if its just the front feet, like I say her facets still need medicating again I would think, and then it would be extensive long and low rehab.  Tbh its her last and only chance, have set a timescale for a year from now, I have a real issue with keeping a horse going that is not field sound.

ETA what make of boot do you recommend to start us off?


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## ihatework (14 December 2016)

Is it worth considering Bute short term during the initial walking phase?


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## HufflyPuffly (14 December 2016)

Boots will depend on her hoof shape and measurements, Doodles were such a terrible shape (very long and thin) we didn't have a lot of choice so ended up with the Equine Fusion Ultimate Jogging Boots.

A good guide can be seen: https://www.hoofbootique.co.uk/help/size-charts


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## ycbm (14 December 2016)

ihatework said:



			Is it worth considering Bute short term during the initial walking phase?
		
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I feel uncomfortable about it. It will stop pain but not stop bruising, and bruising can lead to abscesses. And abscesses treated with Bute can be a nightmare and go underground for weeks. If possible, I'd prefer to keep the horse off surfaces that make it sore, but I can see that there might be circumstances where that's impossible. I'd use it only as a last resort.

The use of formaldehyde (Ketatex hood hardener) polarises  opinion too. I would use it short term and only if it obviously helped the horse.  Many would say never put it near a horse's hoof, and I understand why they are cautious of a powerful chemical like it. But to balance that I have never heard of any horse that has been damaged by it. .


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## Goldenstar (15 December 2016)

ITPersonnage said:



			GS Interesting about the hind suspensories, mine did hers after one summer barefoot. I put it down to hard/uneven ground and not enough road work but if I'd watched her hind toes a bit more I would have avoided the injury? Would love to hear more about that?
		
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I can't say .
However while understanding that long toes exert dangerous forces on the tendons and ligaments on the front limbs is widespread the role of the long toe in hind limb problems especially with the suspensories seems to get less attention .
I think and I admit many won't agree that the self trimming mantra can lead to problems while feet transition and the big thing you need to watch is what your horses toes are doing and the hind feet are easily overlooked .


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## Goldenstar (15 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			I feel uncomfortable about it. It will stop pain but not stop bruising, and bruising can lead to abscesses. And abscesses treated with Bute can be a nightmare and go underground for weeks. If possible, I'd prefer to keep the horse off surfaces that make it sore, but I can see that there might be circumstances where that's impossible. I'd use it only as a last resort.

The use of formaldehyde (Ketatex hood hardener) polarises  opinion too. I would use it short term and only if it obviously helped the horse.  Many would say never put it near a horse's hoof, and I understand why they are cautious of a powerful chemical like it. But to balance that I have never heard of any horse that has been damaged by it. .
		
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I have used Bute in the early stages under veterinary supervision .
I am also very relaxed about keratex if it helps I use it .


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## PorkChop (15 December 2016)

ihatework said:



			Is it worth considering Bute short term during the initial walking phase?
		
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ycbm said:



			I feel uncomfortable about it. It will stop pain but not stop bruising, and bruising can lead to abscesses. And abscesses treated with Bute can be a nightmare and go underground for weeks. If possible, I'd prefer to keep the horse off surfaces that make it sore, but I can see that there might be circumstances where that's impossible. I'd use it only as a last resort.

The use of formaldehyde (Ketatex hood hardener) polarises  opinion too. I would use it short term and only if it obviously helped the horse.  Many would say never put it near a horse's hoof, and I understand why they are cautious of a powerful chemical like it. But to balance that I have never heard of any horse that has been damaged by it. .
		
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Goldenstar said:



			I have used Bute in the early stages under veterinary supervision .
I am also very relaxed about keratex if it helps I use it .
		
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So is it a yay or nay to bute!  I can keep her on a soft surface, and I can get her to tarmac via a soft surface - unless the weather goes bonkers and then it will be sheet ice!

Do I start putting something on her frogs and soles straight away as a preventative measure?
Do I measure her up for boots as soon as the shoes come off or shall I wait and see?
Do I contact a barefoot trimmer?

Texted the farrier today to say the shoes needed taking off on Monday, lets hope my husband doesn't try and argue for the remedial shoes when the farrier is here.


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## ihatework (15 December 2016)

Demented Elf said:



			So is it a yay or nay to bute!  I can keep her on a soft surface, and I can get her to tarmac via a soft surface - unless the weather goes bonkers and then it will be sheet ice!

Do I start putting something on her frogs and soles straight away as a preventative measure?
Do I measure her up for boots as soon as the shoes come off or shall I wait and see?
Do I contact a barefoot trimmer?

Texted the farrier today to say the shoes needed taking off on Monday, lets hope my husband doesn't try and argue for the remedial shoes when the farrier is here.
		
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Many roads to Rome and all that malarkey!

I'm pro, because even slightly sore feet have such an impact on how horses hold and use themselves that I'd be inclined to try and avoid that if at all possible.

My (admittedly limited) experience of hoof boots really is not positive, so my mind set would be where possible not to use them, although appreciate that is easier said than done in many cases!


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## ester (15 December 2016)

Late to the party  initial post got me a bit confused so I ran away again  I didn't Bute because I felt I could manage his soreness as was only on road/our drive track. If a horse was not comfortable for general life from field to stable etc I would consider buting. 
We fitted him for boots when shoes came off as his flat pedal bones meant flat soles so some soreness was likely, as many experience it didn't come on until week 6 but from then he was booted for hand walking on the road for a few months, took them off when on our grassy bits - wanted him to move a bit more by then so did combo of road and grass. He also has regular physio for the time he was a bit sore. 
He is odd in that those same boots still fit nearly 5 years later, we got our money's worth


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## paddy555 (15 December 2016)

Demented Elf said:



			So is it a yay or nay to bute!  I can keep her on a soft surface, and I can get her to tarmac via a soft surface - unless the weather goes bonkers and then it will be sheet ice!

Do I start putting something on her frogs and soles straight away as a preventative measure?
Do I measure her up for boots as soon as the shoes come off or shall I wait and see?
Do I contact a barefoot trimmer?

Texted the farrier today to say the shoes needed taking off on Monday, lets hope my husband doesn't try and argue for the remedial shoes when the farrier is here.
		
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I would never use bute just to start getting a horse walking nor kerratex. I would make sure you have a contingency plan in case there is ice and frozen rutted ground. That sort of ground is very difficult for a newly deshod horse. They will be footsore so you will need some method of keeping her. A yard, barn, school etc. If  you got iced in for a month could you cope? or perhaps you are in an area that doesn't have much ice. 

I use boots a lot for newly de shod horses. I don't see any point in being limited by how far a horse can walk and over what ground without shoes. I would however wait and see. You never know what is going to happen until the shoes are off. Sometimes the most problematical ghastly feet are great and sometimes one who should sail through it has massive problems. 
If you need to get over short areas of stones (to the field etc) try putting a path of old carpet down as a temporary measure. 

If your farrier is good you don't need a trimmer, if he is too drastic you may well do. I would expect a farrier to remove shoes and do very little trimming. The horse will wear down any extra growth.  I would expect him to discuss thrush with you and how to deal with it. If he trimmed the frog I would be expecting a good explanation. You will get some idea when you watch him remove the shoes and how he deals with the feet. Some farriers are great and will do very little, some will try and trim too much. If that happens I would stop him. It is very easy to make a horse sore by excess trimming.


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## PorkChop (16 December 2016)

paddy555 said:



			I would never use bute just to start getting a horse walking nor kerratex. I would make sure you have a contingency plan in case there is ice and frozen rutted ground. That sort of ground is very difficult for a newly deshod horse. They will be footsore so you will need some method of keeping her. A yard, barn, school etc. If  you got iced in for a month could you cope? or perhaps you are in an area that doesn't have much ice. 

I use boots a lot for newly de shod horses. I don't see any point in being limited by how far a horse can walk and over what ground without shoes. I would however wait and see. You never know what is going to happen until the shoes are off. Sometimes the most problematical ghastly feet are great and sometimes one who should sail through it has massive problems. 
If you need to get over short areas of stones (to the field etc) try putting a path of old carpet down as a temporary measure. 

If your farrier is good you don't need a trimmer, if he is too drastic you may well do. I would expect a farrier to remove shoes and do very little trimming. The horse will wear down any extra growth.  I would expect him to discuss thrush with you and how to deal with it. If he trimmed the frog I would be expecting a good explanation. You will get some idea when you watch him remove the shoes and how he deals with the feet. Some farriers are great and will do very little, some will try and trim too much. If that happens I would stop him. It is very easy to make a horse sore by excess trimming.
		
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Thank you for your reply, yes it is very likely we will freeze for a long period of time.  I can box to an indoor school, or she can have the run of the stable area.  We are thinking of trying to do something with our outdoor arena to prevent it freezing over the next week.


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## ycbm (16 December 2016)

Can you leave her with the run of the stable area day and night? If you can, I would, and put her hay in four corners so she moves as much as possible. Mine are in a barn at night with that arrangement and watching them on camera they probably walk a couple of miles overnight between one rack and another.


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## Casey76 (16 December 2016)

The thing is, hooves should be measured freshly trimmed to ascertain the size required for boots, and now most advice is not to trim/minimal trim when the shoes come off.

I've never used boots for my ponies (though I do have three pairs at home for "just in case" moments)  For me there is still a lot to be improved in boots before they cam be a good replacement for shoes (if you use shoes).


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## JillA (16 December 2016)

This is worth a read http://www.hoofrehab.com/BootArticle.htm as also are the rest of Pete's articles. I have used boots to support and protect newly bare feet, with our without pads, and in our case they were the one most important tool in keeping my horse comfortable enough to continue and achieve healthy bare feet. If the ground gets frozen they will enable you to keep on exercising and movement is important in hoof rehabilitation. Not to mention cheaper than modifying the surface itself!
It is worth talking to the boot specialist at one of the sites that sell them - Carolyn at The Urban Horse was my helpful go to person but there are plenty of others. Explain what you want them for, and they will advise on the best fit.


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## Antw23uk (16 December 2016)

I was told to leave my boys feet for a good few weeks before the first trim and then measure for boots ... I never have although Im wobling about the whole BF thing at the moment so think boots should be brought before i go back to shoes!


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## ester (16 December 2016)

We didn't trim but measured well enough and that was for a close fitting boot type, any others would be more generous with fit and plenty about second hand if you need to change them again shortly down the line. You arent going be on long term boots for certain until at least the whole hoof wall has grown down, unless you Re frank


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## PorkChop (16 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			Can you leave her with the run of the stable area day and night? If you can, I would, and put her hay in four corners so she moves as much as possible. Mine are in a barn at night with that arrangement and watching them on camera they probably walk a couple of miles overnight between one rack and another.
		
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Only in the day, as the other horses come in at night.  Problem is, she is on severe rations so the hay in four corners won't work because she will scoff it and then stand and sleep!


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## PorkChop (16 December 2016)

ester said:



			We didn't trim but measured well enough and that was for a close fitting boot type, any others would be more generous with fit and plenty about second hand if you need to change them again shortly down the line. You arent going be on long term boots for certain until at least the whole hoof wall has grown down, unless you Re frank 

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Thank you, will measure her feet on Monday once the shoes are off.


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## PorkChop (16 December 2016)

Antw23uk said:



			I was told to leave my boys feet for a good few weeks before the first trim and then measure for boots ... I never have although Im wobling about the whole BF thing at the moment so think boots should be brought before i go back to shoes!
		
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Thank you, problem is knowing which is the right thing to do!


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## PorkChop (16 December 2016)

JillA said:



			This is worth a read http://www.hoofrehab.com/BootArticle.htm as also are the rest of Pete's articles. I have used boots to support and protect newly bare feet, with our without pads, and in our case they were the one most important tool in keeping my horse comfortable enough to continue and achieve healthy bare feet. If the ground gets frozen they will enable you to keep on exercising and movement is important in hoof rehabilitation. Not to mention cheaper than modifying the surface itself!
It is worth talking to the boot specialist at one of the sites that sell them - Carolyn at The Urban Horse was my helpful go to person but there are plenty of others. Explain what you want them for, and they will advise on the best fit.
		
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Thank you, will have a read later


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## PorkChop (16 December 2016)

Casey76 said:



			The thing is, hooves should be measured freshly trimmed to ascertain the size required for boots, and now most advice is not to trim/minimal trim when the shoes come off.

I've never used boots for my ponies (though I do have three pairs at home for "just in case" moments)  For me there is still a lot to be improved in boots before they cam be a good replacement for shoes (if you use shoes).
		
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Thank you, I think I will need to get some incase for early on, and then sell and buy as we go along.


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## PorkChop (20 December 2016)

A wee update 

Shoes are off, my farrier appears to be pretty pro barefoot and has taken several long term lame horses barefoot with success, so that is great.  He agrees that bars and wedges will not address the problem.  So he has given me some good advice and we will adjust as necessary throughout the winter.

So pleased he is on board, which is lucky as I have had no reply from the barefoot trimmer.

I have uncovered half of her stable back to the concrete so that she has to pad about on it when she is in, my stables are massive so plenty of room to do this.

So we shall start walking on tarmac today, is there a limit to how much I should do?


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## ycbm (20 December 2016)

Fantastic. What a great farrier. 

Start with ten minutes, and if she's happy with that and the same tomorrow, add ten minutes and stick on twenty for a week. If everything is still ok, increase to half an hour and stay there for a week. Then go to 45 minutes for a week and then an hour, then do as much as you feel able to. That would be my starting point.

Please don't get despondent if she is less comfortable in a few weeks time than she is today. It's very common, and it will pass.


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## PorkChop (20 December 2016)

Ooops, just got back in for our morning walk and read your recommendation 

I took her out for 45 minutes, planning on taking her to the indoor tonight to do some some free lunging long and low because if she is having exercise I need to address her back issues at the same time as transitioning to no shoes.

Are you saying that I should cut the road walking back?  On the way home she was already placing her front feet flatter on the road, happy over small stony bits, should I prepare myself for her to be sore tomorrow?


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## ycbm (20 December 2016)

I was going to recommend an hour but thought I should err on the side of caution 

If she's fine tomorrow, carry on!


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## PorkChop (20 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			I was going to recommend an hour but thought I should err on the side of caution 

If she's fine tomorrow, carry on!
		
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Wah! Super, will do as much as she is comfortable with   I intend to use Red Horse Hoof Cleanse weekly, anything else I should stock up on?  Farrier has said her white line at the moment looks nice and tight.


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## paddy555 (20 December 2016)

I think an hour a day or even 45mins on tarmac is way too long if your shoes have just come off. I have seen so many people take their horses out for an hour on day 1. Horse does well, they are overjoyed. There is really nothing to this barefoot lark! In a weeks  time the horse is sore and has run out of foot. It has worn down with all the tarmac work and the horse hasn't as yet adjusted to putting out sufficient growth to cope with barefoot work.


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## PorkChop (20 December 2016)

paddy555 said:



			I think an hour a day or even 45mins on tarmac is way too long if your shoes have just come off. I have seen so many people take their horses out for an hour on day 1. Horse does well, they are overjoyed. There is really nothing to this barefoot lark! In a weeks  time the horse is sore and has run out of foot. It has worn down with all the tarmac work and the horse hasn't as yet adjusted to putting out sufficient growth to cope with barefoot work.
		
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Fair point, so are we talking 10 mins?


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## FfionWinnie (20 December 2016)

I would do ten minutes and work up gradually. You might be ok doing 45 mins a couple of times a week but once you've over done it you can't stick it back on while the feet get the grow faster message and I feel it's better not to have set backs if you can help it. 

That said it's the Christmas hols so my daughter will be hacking her pony a lot more than the ten minutes walking I've done here and there however he has had his shoes off for a month now and I feel they need a decent (self) trim so we will probably get away with it as it will be back to little and often once the hols are over. If I think we are over doing it I'll just take them to the beach or somewhere less challenging for a few days.


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## PorkChop (21 December 2016)

FfionWinnie said:



			I would do ten minutes and work up gradually. You might be ok doing 45 mins a couple of times a week but once you've over done it you can't stick it back on while the feet get the grow faster message and I feel it's better not to have set backs if you can help it. 

That said it's the Christmas hols so my daughter will be hacking her pony a lot more than the ten minutes walking I've done here and there however he has had his shoes off for a month now and I feel they need a decent (self) trim so we will probably get away with it as it will be back to little and often once the hols are over. If I think we are over doing it I'll just take them to the beach or somewhere less challenging for a few days.
		
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Thank you for the advice, ten minutes today, won't even get to the end of the drive!


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## supsup (21 December 2016)

My advice would be to be guided by your horse. If she's sore the next day (subtle signs include striding shorter, walking slower, less keen to land heel first), you've done too much. Give a break, then do a little less next time. If she was fine, add 5 mins next time and see if she's still ok the day after.
My other piece of advice is to give days off. Any exercise is "destructive" - it stresses muscles and other tissues. This is good because it stimulates the body to grow stronger, but the actual repair and strengthening happens when the horse is at rest. If you don't give enough breaks, you end up piling more damage on top of already stressed tissues. I'd work on a two days on, one day off rota, or even alternate between walking and rest days initially. (BTW, "rest" might be just turnout or exercise that is less taxing, e.g. movement on an easy surface. I don't mean box rest.). Just listen to your horse and don't push on too far too early.


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## PorkChop (21 December 2016)

supsup said:



			My advice would be to be guided by your horse. If she's sore the next day (subtle signs include striding shorter, walking slower, less keen to land heel first), you've done too much. Give a break, then do a little less next time. If she was fine, add 5 mins next time and see if she's still ok the day after.
My other piece of advice is to give days off. Any exercise is "destructive" - it stresses muscles and other tissues. This is good because it stimulates the body to grow stronger, but the actual repair and strengthening happens when the horse is at rest. If you don't give enough breaks, you end up piling more damage on top of already stressed tissues. I'd work on a two days on, one day off rota, or even alternate between walking and rest days initially. (BTW, "rest" might be just turnout or exercise that is less taxing, e.g. movement on an easy surface. I don't mean box rest.). Just listen to your horse and don't push on too far too early.
		
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Good advice, thank you


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## paddy555 (21 December 2016)

Demented Elf said:



			Fair point, so are we talking 10 mins?
		
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I would stick to 10 mins a day on tarmac for a couple of weeks and then review. I would make sure you clean all grit out of the WL , (horseshoe nail or bradawl) after every walk.

If your horse is capable and you want to exercise further then boot for outings over 10 mins. Work in the school etc BF but keep an eye on things if it is a very sandy surfaced school. Sand wears feet. If you have the facilities ride on tarmac for 10 mins and then do the rest of your ride on grassy fields etc. 

Look at the feet constantly for wear. The first outing will have been easy, there will have been wall to wear down. Once you wear it down the horse  may be walking on the frog so if sore think about  thrush. Expect that at some stage in the next couple of weeks your horse will become sore. It very well may be so if you are prepared it will be a lot less depressing. 

PS if 10 mins won't even get to the end of the drive and you want to ride then boot. The exercise will probably do the horse good.


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## PorkChop (21 December 2016)

paddy555 said:



			I would stick to 10 mins a day on tarmac for a couple of weeks and then review. I would make sure you clean all grit out of the WL , (horseshoe nail or bradawl) after every walk.

If your horse is capable and you want to exercise further then boot for outings over 10 mins. Work in the school etc BF but keep an eye on things if it is a very sandy surfaced school. Sand wears feet. If you have the facilities ride on tarmac for 10 mins and then do the rest of your ride on grassy fields etc. 

Look at the feet constantly for wear. The first outing will have been easy, there will have been wall to wear down. Once you wear it down the horse  may be walking on the frog so if sore think about  thrush. Expect that at some stage in the next couple of weeks your horse will become sore. It very well may be so if you are prepared it will be a lot less depressing. 

PS if 10 mins won't even get to the end of the drive and you want to ride then boot. The exercise will probably do the horse good.
		
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She isn't being ridden as she is lame, hence the transitioning.  So no need to go further than ten mins, and tbh she is having her turnout on a sand arena so maybe I shouldn't bother with the walking on tarmac anyway.  Obviously it is much simpler/easier for me not to in hand walk her, I was under the impression that they needed to be walked out.  I have uncovered half of her stable to smooth concrete so she can potter about on that at night.


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## paddy555 (21 December 2016)

Demented Elf said:



			She isn't being ridden as she is lame, hence the transitioning.  So no need to go further than ten mins, and tbh she is having her turnout on a sand arena so maybe I shouldn't bother with the walking on tarmac anyway.  Obviously it is much simpler/easier for me not to in hand walk her, I was under the impression that they needed to be walked out.  I have uncovered half of her stable to smooth concrete so she can potter about on that at night.
		
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they don't have to be walked on tarmac. The reason for walking on tarmac is to start to transition their feet from shod to a barefoot working horse. I have taken the shoes off several over the years and just turned them out in the field or left them to wander around the yard for 2/3 weeks until they adapt. Then started work on tarmac to make them into riding horses. If she is lame that may be better for you and then review after the new Year. 

if she is lame I wouldn't bother just let her get on with it for a bit. Sorry everyone was talking about walking I didn't realise she was still lame. I wouldn't walk a lame horse.


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## HufflyPuffly (21 December 2016)

I didn't (don't ) do much walking out as prescribed by the experts, partly time and partly because we had to get up our very stony lane so at first she needed boots for the lane and then I had no where to put the boots if I took them off at the top.

Walking them out in gradually increasing time will probably speed up their transition, but I found wasn't that critical for us as I didn't mind how long it took as she's partly retired and I was happy to stick with boots if needed. Doodle got turned out bare and ridden in boots for the first 6-9 months, she's now hacking bare as well .


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## PorkChop (21 December 2016)

paddy555 said:



			they don't have to be walked on tarmac. The reason for walking on tarmac is to start to transition their feet from shod to a barefoot working horse. I have taken the shoes off several over the years and just turned them out in the field or left them to wander around the yard for 2/3 weeks until they adapt. Then started work on tarmac to make them into riding horses. If she is lame that may be better for you and then review after the new Year. 

if she is lame I wouldn't bother just let her get on with it for a bit. Sorry everyone was talking about walking I didn't realise she was still lame. I wouldn't walk a lame horse.
		
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AlexHyde said:



			I didn't (don't ) do much walking out as prescribed by the experts, partly time and partly because we had to get up our very stony lane so at first she needed boots for the lane and then I had no where to put the boots if I took them off at the top.

Walking them out in gradually increasing time will probably speed up their transition, but I found wasn't that critical for us as I didn't mind how long it took as she's partly retired and I was happy to stick with boots if needed. Doodle got turned out bare and ridden in boots for the first 6-9 months, she's now hacking bare as well .
		
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Gawd, confused dot com.  Walking will now cease


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## HufflyPuffly (21 December 2016)

Demented Elf said:



			Gawd, confused dot com.  Walking will now cease 

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Everyone has an opinion or story lol, I posted on a facebook group near the start of the year (not for the faint-hearted :eek3 and one person said I shouldn't ride her at all for x number of weeks and then start 10 mins walking etc, I'd already been riding her for a couple of weeks by that point without her feet falling off :lol:. 

Really you just need to listen to the horse in front of you, if they're coping and not sore crack on, if they start to look sore do less, and then when you panic you've ruined it all post on here and the good people of HHO will give you a virtual slap and set you straight  it worked well for me anyway :lol:.


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## paddy555 (21 December 2016)

AlexHyde said:



			Everyone has an opinion or story lol, I posted on a facebook group near the start of the year (not for the faint-hearted :eek3 and one person said I shouldn't ride her at all for x number of weeks and then start 10 mins walking etc, I'd already been riding her for a couple of weeks by that point without her feet falling off :lol:. 

Really you just need to listen to the horse in front of you, if they're coping and not sore crack on, if they start to look sore do less, and then when you panic you've ruined it all post on here and the good people of HHO will give you a virtual slap and set you straight  it worked well for me anyway :lol:.
		
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excellent last sentence!! 

get some pics now, (camera on the ground for the side shots) give her a month and take some more pics. You will start to see improvement. Probably also improvement in the way she moves and if she is still lame or getting better. In the meantime sand freezes so get the ice plan ready. That could be the number one thing to make her footsore.


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## ester (21 December 2016)

I walked f who was a bit lame but had recently had a steroid injection as that helped but didn't last. Only 5 mins a day to start, I know I took it very slowly with him but think taking things slower can't really be a bad thing to start whereas going too quick has the potential to be. I'm sure I could have left him out in the field for a couple of weeks too and ended up with the same outcome long term


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## ycbm (21 December 2016)

Demented Elf said:



			She isn't being ridden as she is lame, hence the transitioning.  So no need to go further than ten mins, and tbh she is having her turnout on a sand arena so maybe I shouldn't bother with the walking on tarmac anyway.  Obviously it is much simpler/easier for me not to in hand walk her, I was under the impression that they needed to be walked out.  I have uncovered half of her stable to smooth concrete so she can potter about on that at night.
		
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In my opinion it is essential to get these rehab horses moving. if they don't do enough miles, they won't rebuild the back half of the foot which it's essential to the rehab process. Some of these rehabs do not recover, no matter how long they are field rested, until they get moving. The walking on tarmac is not solely for transition to barefoot. It's to get the miles into them on the easiest and least risky surface for them to manage. Also a surface which will trim the foot and let you know what the correct foot balance is. This is also essential to recovery.

In the absence of group turnout on a track system, hand walking on tarmac until she is landing heel first has worked for every rehab where I've seen it done.


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## PorkChop (21 December 2016)

paddy555 said:



			excellent last sentence!! 

get some pics now, (camera on the ground for the side shots) give her a month and take some more pics. You will start to see improvement. Probably also improvement in the way she moves and if she is still lame or getting better. In the meantime sand freezes so get the ice plan ready. That could be the number one thing to make her footsore.
		
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Will do, salt is here to mix in with the sand, but I can go to the indoor school whenever I want.  This is last chance saloon for this horse, the issue is more that if we can't get her moving soon to start rehabbing her back she is a goner anyway.



ester said:



			I walked f who was a bit lame but had recently had a steroid injection as that helped but didn't last. Only 5 mins a day to start, I know I took it very slowly with him but think taking things slower can't really be a bad thing to start whereas going too quick has the potential to be. I'm sure I could have left him out in the field for a couple of weeks too and ended up with the same outcome long term 

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Thank you for this 


ycbm said:



			In my opinion it is essential to get these rehab horses moving. if they don't do enough miles, they won't rebuild the back half of the foot which it's essential to the rehab process. Some of these rehabs do not recover, no matter how long they are field rested, until they get moving. The walking on tarmac is not solely for transition to barefoot. It's to get the miles into them on the easiest and least risky surface for them to manage. Also a surface which will trim the foot and let you know what the correct foot balance is. This is also essential to recovery.

In the absence of group turnout on a track system, hand walking on tarmac until she is landing heel first has worked for every rehab where I've seen it done.
		
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I have to say that my farrier agrees with your train of thought, everything has to be balanced to what is going to help and what is going to hinder.  Not sure how to proceed but I will take all information on board and do what I think is best.


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## ester (21 December 2016)

I agree that movement is vital and those I've seen fail have lacked that but if you do too much too soon then you can end up with a sore horse who isn't moving properly to do themselves any good anyway so I like little and often and building up gradually and being guided by the horse too. Frank went out stomping to start but how he was at week 6 I was pleased not to have pushed to do more on the road up until then. (I upped his mileage off road on soft grass for a while so moving further but not all on road)  DE is only on day 2 so I don't see the rush.


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## ycbm (21 December 2016)

Neither do I. You did notice that my recommendation was ten minutes to start, Ester?  We are in complete agreement here, I think.


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## paddy555 (21 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			In my opinion it is essential to get these rehab horses moving.
		
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to a point yes but if walking a lame horse just makes it move even more badly then it usually has a knock on effect to somewhere else in it's body. Depends whether that potential further damage is an acceptable risk or will make matters worse.  

The ideal is letting it wander without a human demanding a walk or a herd to bully it.


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## ycbm (21 December 2016)

paddy555 said:



			to a point yes but if walking a lame horse just makes it move even more badly then it usually has a knock on effect to somewhere else in it's body. Depends whether that potential further damage is an acceptable risk or will make matters worse.  

The ideal is letting it wander without a human demanding a walk or a herd to bully it.
		
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It's not ideal if it doesn't cure it.  I've had one here that was lame for four years including several spells of field rest, the last one a whole year. Horse was still lame. I walked it and walked it and it was sound within three months. For me, that's also the point of a flat road. They move with least effort on a flat hard surface and don't do themselves further damage elsewhere.  You can't stop the damage til you get a heel first landing. You can't get a heel first landing if you don't strengthen the heel. It's not chicken and egg, the heel and foot balance has to come first or the damage never stops. Rooney's experiments showed this clearly.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that rehab horses move because the herd bullies it? The rehabs I've had have followed the lead horse, not been pushed by it.


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## paddy555 (21 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			It's not ideal if it doesn't cure it.  I've had one here that was lame for four years including several spells of field rest, the last one a whole year. Horse was still lame. I walked it and walked it and it was sound within three months. For me, that's also the point of a flat road. They move with least effort on a flat hard surface and don't do themselves further damage elsewhere.  You can't stop the damage til you get a heel first landing. You can't get a heel first landing if you don't strengthen the heel. It's not chicken and egg, the heel and foot balance has to come first or the damage never stops. Rooney's experiments showed this clearly.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that rehab horses move because the herd bullies it? The rehabs I've had have followed the lead horse, not been pushed by it.
		
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everyone is entitled to their own opinion so we will have to differ. I personally wouldn't walk a horse that is lame (unless of course a vet requested it) I don't disagree with your theory I would just not force a lame horse into daily walks. I have seen horses where that has been done and I can see little to recommend it. To my mind rehabbing a horse takes as long as it takes. 

Again on herd dynamics we will have to differ. I have seen plenty of horses lower down the pecking order, or poorly,  being bullied. (not necessarily barefoot ones)


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## ycbm (21 December 2016)

No-one is talking about forcing any lame horse to walk. The ones I have seen and the ones I have done were overjoyed to get out and about. Very few horses who will benefit from a barefoot rehab will be noticeably lame in walk.

Of course horses get bullied. A rehab who is being bullied should be removed from that environment. All movement by a rehab should be undertaken willingly.


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## PorkChop (21 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			No-one is talking about forcing any lame horse to walk. The ones I have seen and the ones I have done were overjoyed to get out and about. Very few horses who will benefit from a barefoot rehab will be noticeably lame in walk.

Of course horses get bullied. A rehab who is being bullied should be removed from that environment. All movement by a rehab should be undertaken willingly.
		
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Gosh, we are not talking about forcing a hobbling horse to walk, like ycbm said.  It is not until you lunge her on a circle in trot that you see the lameness.  She had a blast going out for a walk yesterday, poor thing is bored being on turnout by herself.  But I am certainly going to stick to turnout in the arena and a potter about on the yard, as I don't appear to know what I am doing!


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## tallyho! (21 December 2016)

So very sorry, not read all replies... late to the party!!

Hoping I can provide some reassurance re vets.. I eventually got support from mine for my old boy but no farrier supported me so I went to an equine podiatrist (best thing I ever bloomin did!)... it was October when I took the plunge. The hardest winter I can remember for the southern counties too. The ground was frozen for some weeks. 

My boy had lami and navicular. It was PTS or turn away... so I turned away. 10mo later we were xc/ht over the hardest summer ground! He went round twice without flinching. 

Personally, I think you can over-do rehab. Sometimes just letting Mother Nature fix her beasts is a good option.


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## ycbm (21 December 2016)

I don't dispute for one moment that turning away works for a fair proportion of horses. Especially turning away on hard ground like you did.

But can I ask you to explain what you mean by 'you can overdo rehab' ?  I've never known one done progressively make a horse worse. Is that what you meant?


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## tallyho! (22 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			I don't dispute for one moment that turning away works for a fair proportion of horses. Especially turning away on hard ground like you did.

But can I ask you to explain what you mean by 'you can overdo rehab' ?  I've never known one done progressively make a horse worse. Is that what you meant?
		
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What I mean is that I see some people try and regiment the whole process... when just turning away could provide the time and stimulation needed. 

Never heard of it making a horse worse, but perhaps I have seen it take much longer. Stabling doesn't give the stimulation required... and actually, right at the beginning, it was yourself and other helpful people on this forum that told me the same thing (iirc) - of which I am eternally grateful. If it wasn't for you suggesting a mineral change, he would be back in the stable and not turned out 24/7, even as a laminitic.


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## ycbm (22 December 2016)

We're on the same page


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## tallyho! (22 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			We're on the same page 

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And thank you for your help all those years ago...  without which I may have never become a hoof geek


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## ycbm (22 December 2016)

hollyandtheivy said:



			And thank you for your help all those years ago...  without which I may have never become a hoof geek 

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You're welcome 

Love watching hoof porn myself


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## PorkChop (23 December 2016)

Evening 

We slo-mo'd her front feet today.  To my very untrained eye it looks like they are landing square when viewed front on.  She is landing toe first on her LF and flat on her RF.  Her RF is the foot that we are more worried about due to her conformation.  Her RF is also the one that will show heat and a pulse sometimes.

Should I be aiming for flat or heel first?

We had a slight drop in temperature so half of the arena was much more firm so I decided that would be enough for her to be walking on for the last couple of days.

I did take some (rubbish!) pictures of her feet, haven't got a clue as to what we should be hoping for long term


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## ycbm (23 December 2016)

Heel first, but it will arrive over a few weeks in the toe first foot. Flat is good, as in it will not cause damage, heel first is better as it is shock absorbing.

Long term you are hoping for soundness, even if her feet look seriously odd   Handsome is as handsome does.


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## PorkChop (23 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			Heel first, but it will arrive over a few weeks in the toe first foot. Flat is good, as in it will not cause damage, heel first is better as it is shock absorbing.

Long term you are hoping for soundness, even if her feet look seriously odd   Handsome is as handsome does.
		
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Could you explain why it should be heel first please?  I can find equal amount of articles pro heel first and pro flat.  To someone who doesn't understand, I would have thought the rocking of the heel first landing to be detrimental?  As in, the hoof should take the weight evenly.


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## tallyho! (23 December 2016)

Demented Elf said:



			Could you explain why it should be heel first please?  I can find equal amount of articles pro heel first and pro flat.  To someone who doesn't understand, I would have thought the rocking of the heel first landing to be detrimental?  As in, the hoof should take the weight evenly.
		
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I have questioned this myself many times. I've probably come across the same anecdotes you have. Take it all on board but do not stress.

Thing is, the study numbers are small with many variables not taking into account history or conformation etc etc. Interestingly, my new mare changes what she does depending on her seasons almost so how can you get a proper control? It's very subjective. Unless you have a model with hundreds of not thousands and have arms where breed, sex and baseline characteristics are separated out you just can't.

Right now, my mare is heel first. This is because she has thick soles, fairly high heels and tough lateral cartilages so she just stomps wherever she pleases. Plus, it's winter and grass is low in sugar and not in season. When in season, she becomes very sensitive and I have watched carefully to see if its grass... i'm uncertain as yet as she in one case. So, she becomes very sensitive, tummy becomes sore, back is a bit dippy, feet go all stinky... then, all of a sudden, snorting dragon about to climb up the cotswold way like a goat and heel landing again. 

This mare also dishes but still lands heel first on "good days" lets call it.  I can hear it for a start... when she lands flat I can hear the change... it's more of a "fap fap fap" rather than the "c-lap c-lap c-lap" that I get when she strides out sound. The stride isn't all that shorter but she is a bit more up in her neck.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that just bear in mind what's "your normal" - what is "sound" for you. And it may change... listening to your horse certainly takes on new meanings when barefoot 

My barometer is how she is in herself. If those hooves take me up the rocks, she's clearly well.


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## PorkChop (23 December 2016)

hollyandtheivy said:



			I have questioned this myself many times. I've probably come across the same anecdotes you have. Take it all on board but do not stress.

Thing is, the study numbers are small with many variables not taking into account history or conformation etc etc. Interestingly, my new mare changes what she does depending on her seasons almost so how can you get a proper control? It's very subjective. Unless you have a model with hundreds of not thousands and have arms where breed, sex and baseline characteristics are separated out you just can't.

Right now, my mare is heel first. This is because she has thick soles, fairly high heels and tough lateral cartilages so she just stomps wherever she pleases. Plus, it's winter and grass is low in sugar and not in season. When in season, she becomes very sensitive and I have watched carefully to see if its grass... i'm uncertain as yet as she in one case. So, she becomes very sensitive, tummy becomes sore, back is a bit dippy, feet go all stinky... then, all of a sudden, snorting dragon about to climb up the cotswold way like a goat and heel landing again. 

This mare also dishes but still lands heel first on "good days" lets call it.  I can hear it for a start... when she lands flat I can hear the change... it's more of a "fap fap fap" rather than the "c-lap c-lap c-lap" that I get when she strides out sound. The stride isn't all that shorter but she is a bit more up in her neck.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that just bear in mind what's "your normal" - what is "sound" for you. And it may change... listening to your horse certainly takes on new meanings when barefoot 

My barometer is how she is in herself. If those hooves take me up the rocks, she's clearly well.
		
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Gosh, good, answer - thank you for taking the time


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## ycbm (23 December 2016)

Flat is correct for shoes otherwise the leverage of a rigid shoe smacks the toe down on the floor with horrible concussion.

Landing heel first in a barefoot horse allows the frog to play its proper role as a shock absorber.

If you look at the Rockley footage every lame horse that comes sound changes to a heel first landing. I've not seen a sound rehab, or any hard working barefoot horse in fact, who lands flat


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## tallyho! (23 December 2016)

Demented Elf said:



			Gosh, good, answer - thank you for taking the time 

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Mind you, this mare has never had shoes on so theres another little factor  

p.s. as my mare is a very mareish mare, I have found that agnus cacts really helps us in spring/summer. NOt saying for you to try or anything but just to show there there is quite a bit of finger in the wind as well as proper science


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## FfionWinnie (23 December 2016)

All of my horses who I've taken BF have ended up with a heel first landing. In actual fact I've only ever had one toe first landing and that is my current one. I believe comfortable movement and self trimming is the way to cure that in him. He's 18, been shod all his working life. Is sound and in work. Only been BF for a month.


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## PorkChop (23 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			Flat is correct for shoes otherwise the leverage of a rigid shoe smacks the toe down on the floor with horrible concussion.

Landing heel first in a barefoot horse allows the frog to play its proper role as a shock absorber.

If you look at the Rockley footage every lame horse that comes sound changes to a heel first landing. I've not seen a sound rehab, or any hard working barefoot horse in fact, who lands flat
		
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Thank you, I have looked at Rockley, I had just been looking at other articles etc.  You can never have too much information  Yours is a good explanation, thank you 



hollyandtheivy said:



			Mind you, this mare has never had shoes on so theres another little factor  

p.s. as my mare is a very mareish mare, I have found that agnus cacts really helps us in spring/summer. NOt saying for you to try or anything but just to show there there is quite a bit of finger in the wind as well as proper science 

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Ahh, a little sneaky  but still worthwhile information  I only have mares, and rarely have any problems with seasons.



FfionWinnie said:



			All of my horses who I've taken BF have ended up with a heel first landing. In actual fact I've only ever had one toe first landing and that is my current one. I believe comfortable movement and self trimming is the way to cure that in him. He's 18, been shod all his working life. Is sound and in work. Only been BF for a month.
		
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The proof is in the pudding then, thank you, I won't be happy until she is landing heel first ... sob


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## ester (23 December 2016)

Mine is heel first too  it might be important to mention this is different to toe flip/hyperextension


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## FfionWinnie (23 December 2016)

I wouldn't worry about it too much just keep her moving and comfortable and see what happens.


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## PorkChop (26 December 2016)

I was all set to give her 10 minutes walking up the drive yesterday, the weather was gorgeous 

However she had other ideas and for some reason decided she was in training, and every time I looked at her she was on the move around the arena.  So she came in with raised pulses, arena wasn't hard yesterday so she obviously just overdid it.

Pulses were gone again by this morning.  We had snow, but not cold, so she has been in the arena, moving about but not too much.  No pulses when I last checked, so obviously cold hooves in the snow have helped.

So I presume I don't actively walk her until she can cope with a lot of movement on the sand?


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## ycbm (26 December 2016)

She will have a lot of blood going to her feet to resolve the damage she already has, so raised pulses are not an issue unless she's a known laminitis risk. Pulses without soreness are nothing to worry about in feet where the shoes have only just come off. 

When you say 'on the move' do you mean running around?  Because if she's running around that wouldn't be a reason not to do some steady walking, and if she's walking and walking that would make ten minutes walking in hand pointless.

I know this is easy to say and hard to do, but try not to worry.


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## PorkChop (26 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			She will have a lot of blood going to her feet to resolve the damage she already has, so raised pulses are not an issue unless she's a known laminitis risk. Pulses without soreness are nothing to worry about in feet where the shoes have only just come off. 

When you say 'on the move' do you mean running around?  Because if she's running around that wouldn't be a reason not to do some steady walking, and if she's walking and walking that would make ten minutes walking in hand pointless.

I know this is easy to say and hard to do, but try not to worry.
		
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Thank you, I'm not worrying  I've had enough experiences with pulses to know it is always doom and gloom!

Yesterday she was trotting and cantering, don't know what got into her!  She didn't do so much today, no pulses.

Then I will experiment with a bit of tarmac walking the next few days


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## PorkChop (29 December 2016)

I have put some pictures of her hooves in an album on my profile, if anyone could tell me how to transfer onto the thread it would be very much appreciated 

Should I fill any divots in with hoof paste?

Have been walking for ten minutes on the drive the last few days with no problems.  Shoes have been off just short of 2 weeks, I will do some slo-mo tomorrow to see how she is looking, farrier is back on the 9th of January to see how she is looking and whether he needs to adjust anything.

Any suggestions or comments are welcome


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## ycbm (29 December 2016)

Has she had a serious abscess on the left fore about two months ago? There appear to be exit holes on the hoof and on the sole.

Looking good, except for the disaster of a frog, again in the left fore. It will come back though. Very nice soles, showing the raising cracks at the point of the frog that suggest contact is increasing. And a very strong change of angle on the left fore particularly.

Please ask the farrier not to trim her frogs or sole, if you can do that.


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## PorkChop (29 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			Has she had a serious abscess on the left fore about two months ago? There appear to be exit holes on the hoof and on the sole.

Looking good, except for the disaster of a frog, again in the left fore. It will come back though. Very nice soles, showing the raising cracks at the point of the frog that suggest contact is increasing. And a very strong change of angle on the left fore particularly.

Please ask the farrier not to trim her frogs or sole, if you can do that.
		
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No abscess that I was aware, gawd, as you know she has been lame, but not abscess lame.

Will ask my farrier not to touch the frogs or sole 

Should I fill in the holes with hoof paste?


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## ycbm (29 December 2016)

No, in wouldn't. The kind of bugs that cause problems love being kept in damp dark places and hate fresh air!

I think she's likely had an abscess. They aren't always that lame with them. There's a hole in the edge of the sole and a matching split line on the hoof a third of the way down.


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## PorkChop (29 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			No, in wouldn't. The kind of bugs that cause problems love being kept in damp dark places and hate fresh air!

I think she's likely had an abscess. They aren't always that lame with them. There's a hole in the edge of the sole and a matching split line on the hoof a third of the way down.
		
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Ok, thank you.

She was definitely lame at that time, in fact that was when she was nerve blocked and x-rayed, interesting.


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## ycbm (29 December 2016)

Demented Elf said:



			Ok, thank you.

She was definitely lame at that time, in fact that was when she was nerve blocked and x-rayed, interesting.
		
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Well I'd be prepared to eat my hat if the lameness wasn't due to an abscess that exited at the sole and leaked or at the very least caused some damage at the coronet, which has since grown down. The line on the outside is clear and it matches positioning of  the hole at the edge of the sole at the bottom. Soles grow forward from the heel so it looks further forward now, but it wasn't at the time it happened.

I think you can probably forget about the lameness in that foot at that time being anything that will cause any problems in future.


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## PorkChop (30 December 2016)




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## PorkChop (30 December 2016)

Done it  managed to post a picture


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## PorkChop (30 December 2016)

ycbm said:



			Well I'd be prepared to eat my hat if the lameness wasn't due to an abscess that exited at the sole and leaked or at the very least caused some damage at the coronet, which has since grown down. The line on the outside is clear and it matches positioning of  the hole at the edge of the sole at the bottom. Soles grow forward from the heel so it looks further forward now, but it wasn't at the time it happened.

I think you can probably forget about the lameness in that foot at that time being anything that will cause any problems in future.
		
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Think I will have a look at her in trot on a circle today, to see which front she is lame on at the moment, quite hard to tell when she is bombing around the arena.

That being said I still think taking off the shoes and trying to improve her from feet angle etc is the way to go


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## ycbm (30 December 2016)

You've got a very clear angle change, she definitely needs a period out of shoes,  And if she can stay out of them, why not?


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