# Tokyo Pentathlon SJ



## asmp (6 August 2021)

Anyone else about to watch this?  Heard on the BBC today that it’s going to a much shorter competition at the next olympics so assume that they’ll probably drop the show jumping.  

our Brit is in 6th place at the moment


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

yep just tuned in


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## Kat (6 August 2021)

Oh is it today, now?


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

start list
https://olympics.com/tokyo-2020/oly...N_C51C_MPNWINDIVID-----------EQ----------.pdf


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

Kat said:



			Oh is it today, now?
		
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women's today, men's tomorrow.


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## asmp (6 August 2021)

They look pretty big to me!


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## asmp (6 August 2021)

Always amazes me they find enough horses for this


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## SOS (6 August 2021)

Not on the same level but we did a similar thing as university for BUCS riding team. Pick a random horse at a competitors stable out of a hat, see it warm up, have 10 minutes to warm up then dressage test at supposedly novice level. Then with the jumping same thing, 3 or 4 warm up jumps  and then a 85cm course. In the regional finals it was 95cm.

Lots of fun and teaches you loads to just get on and get the job done as much as possible. It’s a very strange feeling entering a ring on a horse you barely know and tests your riding!


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## asmp (6 August 2021)

Poor first girl - hold up as bell not working and now starting to rain


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

SOS said:



			Not on the same level but we did a similar thing as university for BUCS riding team. Pick a random horse at a competitors stable out of a hat, see it warm up, have 10 minutes to warm up then dressage test at supposedly novice level. Then with the jumping same thing, 3 or 4 warm up jumps  and then a 85cm course. In the regional finals it was 95cm.

Lots of fun and teaches you loads to just get on and get the job done as much as possible. It’s a very strange feeling entering a ring on a horse you barely know and tests your riding!
		
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i did that too, i know these athletes often get a slating but it's a huge ask - these are 1.20m!


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## asmp (6 August 2021)

Not a great start - poor girl .  Looked inevitable


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## SOS (6 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			i did that too, i know these athletes often get a slating but it's a huge ask - these are 1.20m!
		
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Yes I have some sympathy for them. Especially with the training it must take to get to this level for all 5 disciplines.


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## OrangeAndLemon (6 August 2021)

I thought she was doing okay up until that fall. Do they remount in this sport?


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

SOS said:



			Yes I have some sympathy for them. Especially with the training it must take to get to this level for all 5 disciplines.
		
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there won't be that many people on this forum who SJ 1.20m  on their own familiar horse  let alone attempt it as part of a range of sports.  i am not sure it really makes sense as a sport tbh, riding is so bleddy dangerous if you're not suitably competent  let's hope some of the others are better!


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## Annagain (6 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			i did that too, i know these athletes often get a slating but it's a huge ask - these are 1.20m!
		
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Me too - the thought terrifies me these days. It's taken me a year to start jumping Charlie! 

Although I think we had the horses demonstrated to us and we decided who was best to ride which horse rather than picking a horse out of the hat?


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## SOS (6 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			there won't be that many people on this forum who SJ 1.20m  on their own familiar horse  let alone attempt it as part of a range of sports.  i am not sure it really makes sense as a sport tbh, riding is so bleddy dangerous if you're not suitably competent  let's hope some of the others are better!
		
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I hope so! It’s a big course to go wrong on. The first horse seemed very sweet though


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## SOS (6 August 2021)

Tell you what this is a great chance for the general public to see how amazing our professional riders are and how impressive their showjumping was in comparison!


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

this one looks more convincing as a rider


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## OrangeAndLemon (6 August 2021)

Clear, nice quiet ride


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

great range of nations represented too


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## asmp (6 August 2021)

All improved lots after first rider


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

this horse looks like a handful!  fair play to them they have so little time to figure out how to ride them.


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## SOS (6 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			this horse looks like a handful!  fair play to them they have so little time to figure out how to ride them.
		
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Yeah the horse essentially took control there and she could only hang on. I think if she let go it would of been a flat out of control round.


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## OrangeAndLemon (6 August 2021)

This grey looks very scopey


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

Yep.  so far this seems to be a really good group of horses, OK they are all quite different but they've all been pretty generous.  i remember one year thinking some of the horses were making it additionally difficult.  most of these riders look pretty decent.


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## Kat (6 August 2021)

I'm surprised given the number of falls that they don't wear body protectors or air jackets or both.


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

well so far I would like to ride that chestnut and the grey before him!


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## SOS (6 August 2021)

This grey looks like the cartoon horse from tangled haha!


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

ride forward above all else seems to be the right technique here...


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## OrangeAndLemon (6 August 2021)

What I dont understand is, it looks from the ground like this course has been jumped before.

Do we think the horses have been trained around the fences in advance? Maybe this was used as a training course as well?


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## Kat (6 August 2021)

Yikes that poor horse was very honest!


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## SOS (6 August 2021)

I suppose when the horses know their job so well, sit, leg on and steer is all they really should do.


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## Kat (6 August 2021)

OrangeAndLemon said:



			What I dont understand is, it looks from the ground like this course has been jumped before.

Do we think the horses have been trained around the fences in advance? Maybe this was used as a training course as well?
		
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I wondered about that too. 

This horse isn't very happy with the Uzbeck rider


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

this is a bonkers sport


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## Crazy_cat_lady (6 August 2021)

Even OH knew she wasn't going to get over re trying from 2 strides out!

Be interesting to see H volunteered for this - spooky Welsh D who if he wasn't spooking could probably do the height  but god help them if there are spooky fillers!

It's quite a big course, if I can recall isn't it 1.20m? Even when I used to jump unless I was on something absolute push button I don't think I'd get round smoothly


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## Meowy Catkin (6 August 2021)

I just feel like some of these riders are out of their depth.


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## OrangeAndLemon (6 August 2021)

Meowy Catkin said:



			I just feel like some of these riders are out of their depth.
		
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I agree, I think they've been given some very talented, genuine and kind horses which are helping get a lot through safely.


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## SOS (6 August 2021)

I’d give my right arm to ride these horses. They are so genuine


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

OrangeAndLemon said:



			I agree, I think they've been given some very talented, genuine and kind horses which are helping get a lot through safely.
		
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they really have.
i wonder if the higher scoring athletes who will come next will be better riders? some of these have done a good job and some have been decidedly iffy.


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## Kat (6 August 2021)

Meowy Catkin said:



			I just feel like some of these riders are out of their depth.
		
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Quite a few tbh

I mean I wouldn't fancy doing a 1.20m course on a strange horse much but I'm not an Olympian. 

I wonder if for the benefit of the horses and rider safety there should be a change to the marking to motivate teams to train harder for the riding section. Being able to remount following a fall and to continue after two refusals at the same fence are both a bit concerning. 

Body protectors and skull caps too I think.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (6 August 2021)

She could use using that whip on his bum he's napping and taking the p out of her


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

Kat said:



			I wonder if for the benefit of the horses and rider safety there should be a change to the marking to motivate teams to train harder for the riding section. Being able to remount following a fall and to continue after two refusals at the same fence are both a bit concerning.
		
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yeah that would be a good move. it's unusual these days to see someone get back on after a fall and carry on. if they weren't allowed to then perhaps they'd have to give a bit more attention to developing more security.  they sure don't seem to lack guts.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (6 August 2021)

Aerosmith is lovely


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## Kat (6 August 2021)

What is with the manes? This one is plaited but the plaits aren't rolled, another had a banded mane, bizarre!

These horses are super though, so generous, a couple have really done it by themselves. This grey is lovely and so good.


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## RachelFerd (6 August 2021)

There are some absolutely wonderful horses here, but this probably shouldn't be in the olympics - a pretty picture it is not.


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## Kat (6 August 2021)

Be interesting to see this horse with a different rider. Looking better ridden a bit more forward.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (6 August 2021)

That bay is lovely 

Good to see a body protector


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

this Aus rider looks more experienced.


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

very interesting seeing the horses go again isn't it.


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

not a bad round there, forward and stay out of the way seems to suit these horses.


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## Kat (6 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			this Aus rider looks more experienced.
		
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Yes she actually rode the horse, the poor girl in first looked very much out of her depth.


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

this horse is lovely, sat nav error from rider!


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## asmp (6 August 2021)

Crazy_cat_lady said:



			That bay is lovely

Good to see a body protector
		
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They should all have body protectors IMO


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## Kat (6 August 2021)

He said "I've helped you out once, I'm not getting you out of the s*** again"

Looked lovely in the first round though


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## Crazy_cat_lady (6 August 2021)

Shes doing what I did when I jumped, freezing on approach then getting left behind or stopping. Hence why I lost my nerve and no longer jump!


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

Kat said:



			He said "I've helped you out once, I'm not getting you out of the s*** again"

Looked lovely in the first round though
		
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yeah looked like rider just wasn't committed and he was not convinced about her one bit!


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

Do the 2nd round riders get to watch the first ride, anyone know?  it would be so helpful so I assume not?


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## Kat (6 August 2021)

Must be very difficult going second, the horse could be very different depending upon how the first round went. You could find yourself with a very defensive horse if the first rider isn't very good. 

Oh Crystal Ball, has had enough and she's off back to the collecting ring


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

Oh yikes, this horse jumped really well in the first round.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (6 August 2021)

If she'd had a body protector on that would have cushioned her back


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## Kat (6 August 2021)

It would be interesting to know how some of these riders train, a lot ride a bit like they do in the American hunter classes, in a light seat a bit forward, but the horses don't really like it. They could do with sitting up and back and down more, at least they would be more likely to stay in the saddle if the horse stops.


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## Roxylola (6 August 2021)

I can't watch as I'm working but 1m20! 😲
I've long maintained that a sound fit horse and rider should be able to get round a 1m track - not without any training obviously, but it should be achievable. Personally I feel that would be enough to ask even at the Olympics without it getting unsafe for horse or rider. 
Once you start getting much past 1m you start needing a bit of skill from the rider - even more so on a horse you've not ridden before


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

Kat said:



			It would be interesting to know how some of these riders train, a lot ride a bit like they do in the American hunter classes, in a light seat a bit forward, but the horses don't really like it. They could do with sitting up and back and down more, at least they would be more likely to stay in the saddle if the horse stops.
		
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yeah the ones who have ridden in a style we'd recognise as standard SJ seat seem to fare a lot better. perhaps it's also that they are less passive.


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## HufflyPuffly (6 August 2021)

Roxylola said:



			Once you start getting much past 1m you start needing a bit of skill from the rider - even more so on a horse you've not ridden before
		
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I think that might be the point, not that it's making watching any easier!


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

HufflyPuffly said:



			I think that might be the point, not that it's making watching any easier!
		
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yeah this actually feels a bit less painful from a horse POV than some years.  the cock ups are affecting the riders more than the horses I'd say.

this french rider looks decent in her style/position...


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## Crazy_cat_lady (6 August 2021)

I'd love to ride Cairo


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

shame about the time but that was a very decent round.


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

this rider is trying to organise this horse a bit more than the previous one i think. the horse was quite happy jumping his own way 

ahhh settled down well together.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (6 August 2021)

That was a nice round guess it's linked to luck of the draw as that grey was nice earlier


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## Kat (6 August 2021)

I'm a bit in love with this grey John, he totally knows his job doesn't he, very kind. Reckon I might be able to get round with him (if I didn't have a nervous breakdown because the fences are over 75cm).


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## Kat (6 August 2021)

You are joking D+ has stopped part way through the british rider's round !


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## OrangeAndLemon (6 August 2021)

Well done Kate, lovely ride.


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

I read that Kate French did Tetrathlons previously so she must have a fair bit of riding experience under her belt.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (6 August 2021)

Kat said:



			I'm a bit in love with this grey John, he totally knows his job doesn't he, very kind. Reckon I might be able to get round with him (if I didn't have a nervous breakdown because the fences are over 75cm).
		
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Same, either him is Cairo, I'd probably have a breakdown as they're over cross pole height however 😂

British girl did well


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## OrangeAndLemon (6 August 2021)

Kat said:



			You are joking D+ has stopped part way through the british rider's round !
		
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Mine is fine


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## Ossy2 (6 August 2021)

Kat said:



			You are joking D+ has stopped part way through the british rider's round !
		
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mine kept going, clear with time faults


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## Crazy_cat_lady (6 August 2021)

Are they banned from using the whip behind the leg?


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## Kat (6 August 2021)

Mine keeps saying programme unavailable like the coverage has ended  I've tried going in and out. 

Oh well at least I won't miss the beginning of the SJ


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## OrangeAndLemon (6 August 2021)

Crazy_cat_lady said:



			Are they banned from using the whip behind the leg?
		
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Unlikely as one rider definitely did earlier. I was surprised they are using traditional whips instead if jumping bats


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## OrangeAndLemon (6 August 2021)

Kat said:



			Mine keeps saying programme unavailable like the coverage has ended  I've tried going in and out.

Oh well at least I won't miss the beginning of the SJ
		
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Its Eurosport so maybe you can see it on their channels? I think they're on the last 3 horses so praying it finishes in time.


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## Ossy2 (6 August 2021)

I’m quite surprised how many riders with not so great rounds look so annoyed with the horses at the end, really yanking them up and shouting, just graciously give the horse a pat and leave the arena


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## Kat (6 August 2021)

Crazy_cat_lady said:



			Are they banned from using the whip behind the leg?
		
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I don't know but a lot seem to use it down the shoulder, which is odd, and not very effective, especially not when the horse is napping.


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## Kat (6 August 2021)

OrangeAndLemon said:



			Unlikely as one rider definitely did earlier. I was surprised they are using traditional whips instead if jumping bats
		
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Yes I noticed that and was surprised


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

MP seems to have its own set of rules for the riding that are just kinda different to those under the FEI. unusual really.


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

keep an eye on the time, team SJ starts in a min!


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## Kat (6 August 2021)

The footage has started but the riders aren't riding yet it is just talk for now


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

Oh noooo, this horse was the one that parked in that corner in the first round too wasn't it?


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## Crazy_cat_lady (6 August 2021)

Feel sorry for that German girl it's napping away despite her best efforts


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## ecb89 (6 August 2021)

This is just mental


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## OrangeAndLemon (6 August 2021)

Really hoping she can get this horse around. Good luck girl.

ETA maybe this horse should have been substituted out. Not an easy horse.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (6 August 2021)

I'm not surprised she's crying she's tried her best but it really isn't being generous


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## RachelFerd (6 August 2021)

Saint Boy not living up to his name. John, Cairo and Beauty are the winners here. But the sport is not a winner, because it has made for less than edifying viewing.


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## OrangeAndLemon (6 August 2021)

She still patted the horse at the end.


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

very tricky isn't it because she seemed to sort of give up quite a while ago, i mean it's horrible to have that feeling of a horse's good will drying up on you but when you start to lose your emotional grip there's no coming back from it.


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## Crazy_cat_lady (6 August 2021)

Could she appeal having to use that horse?


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## OrangeAndLemon (6 August 2021)

The lovely grey was Jhon I think autocorrect is anglicising the spelling.


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## LJF0664 (6 August 2021)

That last round was heart-breaking, she really had no chance - The horse napped its way to the end of the arena with the last rider, and I suspect even its owner is going to have a battle on their hands next time they ride!


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## Rowreach (6 August 2021)

I’ve not been able to watch modern pentathlon jumping for years, and no way would I ever put a horse of mine through it. I think if they want to keep sj as part of it, the athletes should provide their own horses. It’s just wrong putting these animals through it.


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## Darkly_Dreaming_Dex (6 August 2021)

Felt so sorry for that last rider, the horse had clearly jacked it in the last round and the battle just to get him into the ring to start didn’t bode well


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## asmp (6 August 2021)

That was pretty awful to watch - poor girl.

Now time to switch over


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## OrangeAndLemon (6 August 2021)

You have to wonder if the pressure of her massive lead going in, then a difficult horse was just too much for her. I hope the counselling and support is there so she can come back in 3 years time in Paris.


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

OrangeAndLemon said:



			You have to wonder if the pressure of her massive lead going in, then a difficult horse was just too much for her. I hope the counselling and support is there so she can come back in 3 years time in Paris.
		
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yeah i would think the mental stress aspect of this is quite influential. and of course the horse is then a sponge for your feelings. really tough.


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## Rowreach (6 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			yeah i would think the mental stress aspect of this is quite influential. and of course the horse is then a sponge for your feelings. really tough.
		
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Again, poor horses.


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

yeah... no way I'd put one of mine up for the job  
i think Kat's point about tightening up the rules about falling off would be a good idea, there were some riders who looked really competent and then it was nice to watch as a sporting idea. the ones with very iffy seats were the ones that made it unpleasant IMO.


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## piebaldproblems (6 August 2021)

Can someone explain where these pentathlon horses come from, because Saint Boy shouldn't have been permitted anywhere near a ring? Seems so unfair to the rider and even more unfair to the horse who was clearly very unhappy before ride even started. Had a horse been behaving like that in any of the equestrian sports, rider would have retired without question. And the commentator overhead talking about how she has to show the horse who's boss...


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## Crazy_cat_lady (6 August 2021)

I felt really bad for her, she was doing everything I'd have done when it was napping, yet it just wasn't going to play, surely when it was napping at the start they should have given her a different horse? I'm not surprised she was in tears think I would have been, didn't realise she had such a massive lead. 

Can't she appeal the horse not being fit for purpose?

Surprised its got a gag in, given it wouldn't move. Watching again she was being a bit "wet" dare I say with the napping but still....

The same horse downed tools for the first rider, surely it wasn't fit for purpose they should surely at least trundle along?


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## Coblover63 (6 August 2021)

Oh my!  That was so uncomfortable to watch 😔


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## Lexi_ (6 August 2021)

Oof I’m just watching it on BBC1 now. Not a pleasant picture for the sport to see a slo-mo of someone crying while whipping the horse 😞

I seem to remember from previous Olympics that they swapped out some horses who’d had a terrible round 1? That, or a sensible discard score for elimination would seem a much more logical way to do things!


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## ihatework (6 August 2021)

I just don’t understand the point of sj in modern pentathlon. It’s not a level playing field at all. It’s unfair on the horses and unfair on the athletes.


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## Ambers Echo (6 August 2021)

Feels desperately unfair. Both riders on Saint Boy were eliminated. Surely if a horse is physically not fit to continue they would swap the rider into a new one so why can’t vets or independent judges also assess the psychological fitness of the horse.


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## Rowreach (6 August 2021)

I’m 😳😳 at the people blaming the horses! They didn’t ask to be there, they have to be of a certain standard to be picked but then they are subjected to variable and questionable standards of riders and are expected to perform like an inanimate bit of equipment, to make the sport “fair”?


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## MuddyMonster (6 August 2021)

Surely it's hard though, to judge what's the horse 'not being fit for purpose' and what is the rider not gelling with the horse or not having the emotional fitness and/or technical ability to deal with what horse's throw at you.  

I'm absolutely not saying I could ride at the Olympics (or that standard of horse), good grief no, *but* I can almost guarantee you that if someone started to lose their emotions to the point of them hysterical sobbing (quite understandably so given the circumstances) my sometimes backwards-thinking chap would revert, well, backwards. 

Surely being in control of your emotions is such a big part of being on a horse in the first place, whether that's a local SJ competition or the Olympics?


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## Gloi (6 August 2021)

Kat said:



			You are joking D+ has stopped part way through the british rider's round !
		
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I thought that was an odd name for the horse 😂😂


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

the  rules do apparently cover something about riders being able to request a reserve horse if the first round has had 4 refusals or 2 rider falls. so i guess the german athlete must have had that chance and declined it?


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## OrangeAndLemon (6 August 2021)

I'll admit it's an odd sport. Invented specifically for the olympics and to identify the best all around military personnel.

The skills are those needed to escape being held by an enemy. First you have to sword fight your way out, swim across a moat, ride a strange horse to safety, then run and shoot the final stage to safety.

I thought the horses provided here were very good quality and better than previous olympics. It was just that last one that possibly should have been substituted before its second round. The german rider whipped it as recommended by the coach but she didn't really want to (same way I use the whip when told to, you can tell I'm not really).

This is the last time we'll see it in this format. For Paris it will be a much shorter competition to be fully completed in 90mins.


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

in addition from the quick reading I've done they have had to do a jumping test at the horse inspection so with their regular rider they must be suitable.


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## Ossy2 (6 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			the  rules do apparently cover something about riders being able to request a reserve horse if the first round has had 4 refusals or 2 rider falls. so i guess the german athlete must have had that chance and declined it?
		
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that’s interesting to know, wonder why then they didn’t take up a reserve horse.


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## Ambers Echo (6 August 2021)

I’m not blaming the horse RR. But if a horse throws in the towel mentally it’s horribly unfair on both horse and rider to force him to continue. Saint Boy was eliminated in round 1. Perhaps an elimination should disqualify a horse from being sent back in as if the first rider totally screws up the horse then it isn’t fair on the 2nd rider OR on the horse.


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## shortstuff99 (6 August 2021)

I have to be honest and say the riding (bar a couple) was one of the most unfair thing on horses I have ever seen. Taking advantage of a horses kind nature, it was horrifying to watch. 

That will make people really question why horses are in the Olympics. Why not make it 1m or do a dressage test?


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## Annagain (6 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			in addition from the quick reading I've done they have had to do a jumping test at the horse inspection so with their regular rider they must be suitable.
		
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Yes, someone I know provided a horse in London, she had to do a demo ride for the competitors from what I remember - a quick warm up and jumping 3 or 4 fences. I believe BS ran the selection process for the horses and chose those who were deemed the most likely to cope with not such good riders. 

I do feel for the German girl but that also for the horse. I only watched on BBC so didn't see him with the first rider but he really had no trust in his second rider - I assume because his experience with first rider had damaged it. He will be a pretty successful national level jumper if the London process was anything to go by.


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## MuddyMonster (6 August 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			I have to be honest and say the riding (bar a couple) was one of the most unfair thing on horses I have ever seen. Taking advantage of a horses kind nature, it was horrifying to watch. 

That will make people really question why horses are in the Olympics. Why not make it 1m or do a dressage test?
		
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I wondered if it would be fairer on the horse to make it a dressage test? 

The horse's seem to go through a rigorous testing process, is there a minimum riding ability required for the riders? Or is it a case of if the other scores are high enough to get through to the riding stage, the competitor gets to jump? 

If a competitor is a weaker swimmer, they just ruin their own chances but some of the riding I saw, made me question the fairness to the horse (not that I could do better ...)?

ETA: It's a shame the riders don't get penalised for their horsemanship or sportsmanship (or lack of) - I personally didnt like the Irish rider (Nadine, maybe?) jumping off without a pat to the horse and throwing the reins at the groom whilst walking off.


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## Annagain (6 August 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			I have to be honest and say the riding (bar a couple) was one of the most unfair thing on horses I have ever seen. Taking advantage of a horses kind nature, it was horrifying to watch.

That will make people really question why horses are in the Olympics. Why not make it 1m or do a dressage test?
		
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I think most people who don't do / know about equestrian sport will see it as "naughty horses" and will be revelling in the drama and the 'lottery' aspect that the horses seem to provide. They won't see that the riders have that much of a role or that the horses are being put in a horrible position. That Belgian (?) girl who was shouting (just generally, I think, not specifically at her horse) at the end of her round rode terribly, just chasing him faster with reins like washing lines and not holding him together but the casual viewer will see her kicking and him refusing as his fault.


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## Upthecreek (6 August 2021)

I think the height of the fences is ridiculous given that it’s one element of the event. The less confident riders were behind the movement and hanging on the horse’s mouths. If competitors can’t shoot very well or swim very well they are only damaging their own chances of success. But to not be particularly good at show jumping and have to jump around a course at that height does not seem at all fair on the horses. Saint Boy’s second round was just awful to watch, but your average non-horsey spectator will just think it was a horse behaving badly ☹️


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## NinjaPony (6 August 2021)

I can’t understand why it’s a 1.20 metre course when it’s been shown time and time again that the majority of competitors can’t cope?

I wonder what the issue is, lack of training for the riding element? The strange horse? Both?

Either way they need to sort it out, it’s really not fair on the horses.

Why can’t they just do medium level dressage test, and have a schooling session the day before on the horse they will be riding?

Less spectator friendly perhaps, but surely better than this!


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## Annagain (6 August 2021)

Upthecreek said:



			I think the height of the fences is ridiculous given that it’s one element of the event. The less confident riders were behind the movement and hanging on the horse’s mouths. If competitors can’t shoot very well or swim very well they are only damaging their own chances of success. But to not be particularly good at show jumping and have to jump around a course at that height does not seem at all fair on the horses. Saint Boy’s second round was just awful to watch, but your average non-horsey spectator will just think it was a horse behaving badly ☹️
		
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Maybe riders should be assessed, say twice a year and given a height. They then have to jump the height they have been deemed to be capable at - with only maximum points available to those jumping the biggest heights. This would maintain the specatcle but keep people and horses safe and encourage them to either work at being really good at a lower height to get decent clear rounds or improve their riding to be able to jump at the next height and go for maximum points. Either way the riding skills would improve and the horses would benefit from that. Groups at 1m, 1.10 and 1.20 with a drop of 30 points at each height would probably work.


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## Mynstrel (6 August 2021)

What's worrying is when you listen to some of the athlete's training plans - something like fencing and shooting twice a week, running and swimming 4 times a week. Riding, one lesson a month - on a borrowed horse... Why on earth do they not put more time into the one part of the sport that could do them serious harm?!?!?


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## Upthecreek (6 August 2021)

Annagain said:



			Maybe riders should be assessed, say twice a year and given a height. They then have to jump the height they have been deemed to be capable at - with only maximum points available to those jumping the biggest heights. This would maintain the specatcle but keep people and horses safe and encourage them to either work at being really good at a lower height to get decent clear rounds or improve their riding to be able to jump at the next height and go for maximum points. Either way the riding skills would improve and the horses would benefit from that. Groups at 1m, 1.10 and 1.20 with a drop of 30 points at each height would probably work.
		
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I definitely think they need to assess their riding ability somehow, but the fact it’s not their horse and they are jumping 1.20 still blows my mind. I can’t imagine many of us who’ve been riding for decades would relish the idea of doing that. It’s hard enough on a horse you know inside out, never mind one you’ve never sat on! Oh and the small matter of an Olympic medal being at stake probably ups the pressure and nerves somewhat!!


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## LeneHorse (6 August 2021)

I didn't see the whole thing but all the horses I saw were in snaffles - is this part of the rules? It is quite unusual to see show jumpers just in snaffles so maybe some of these horses are normally in different bits. It might explain some of the control issues.
I felt very sorry for Saint boy, he looked very anxious. A reaction that extreme says pain to me I'm afraid.
I hope they are using fresh horses for the men tomorrow


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## OrangeAndLemon (6 August 2021)

I had to go to the bank, just got back, checked the scores and I think Kate French took Gold!!!


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

oh yes! well based on her ride only she deserved that.


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## Ossy2 (6 August 2021)

So pleased we won gold based on SJ alone she was so much more classy than anyone else


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## Cloball (6 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			I read that Kate French did Tetrathlons previously so she must have a fair bit of riding experience under her belt.
		
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OrangeAndLemon said:



			I'll admit it's an odd sport. Invented specifically for the olympics and to identify the best all around military personnel.

The skills are those needed to escape being held by an enemy. First you have to sword fight your way out, swim across a moat, ride a strange horse to safety, then run and shoot the final stage to safety.
		
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I Enjoy the old military sports like tent pegging but I'm just not sure it works anymore. A smaller course or a riding club horse type event where there is a bit of equitation and a couple of jumps maybe? Sword Lance and revolver? I wonder if there are any military entrants these days. I suppose jumping is just easier to mark.



Mynstrel said:



			What's worrying is when you listen to some of the athlete's training plans - something like fencing and shooting twice a week, running and swimming 4 times a week. Riding, one lesson a month - on a borrowed horse... Why on earth do they not put more time into the one part of the sport that could do them serious harm?!?!?
		
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I considered taking up modern pent when I was at uni but my running was never good enough. 

The Brits tend to do well as the pool of athletes come almost exclusively through pony club and tetrathlon so horsemanship is the foundation. A lot of the other nations do not do this. 

There is a qualifying process and a circuit of competitions so it isn't like these athletes have never competed before or no one has ever seen them jump before. It seems very odd the lack of training in the jumping though!


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## ecb89 (6 August 2021)

1.20 is bloody huge! Lots of decent show jumpers I know don’t compete at that height! Should either lower it or remove it completely


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## Kat (6 August 2021)

If they wanted to stick with the military roots a LeTrec or working equitation type test would work well. 

Or something like a short dressage test followed by say 5 fences with marks for style/safety/horsemanship as well as the penalties for a knock down.


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## HashRouge (6 August 2021)

I'm just watching the Pentathlon SJ now. There are some really lovely horses here! I know that 1m20 is a lot and a lot of us certainly couldn't manage it on an unfamiliar (or even a familiar!) horse. But I do hate this element of the pentathlon - it's so unfair on the horses unless they're lucky enough to get one of the better riders. So many of these riders have very insecure seats, which is mad considering how high they're trying to jump!


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## Rowreach (6 August 2021)

Kat said:



			If they wanted to stick with the military roots a LeTrec or working equitation type test would work well.

Or something like a short dressage test followed by say 5 fences with marks for style/safety/horsemanship as well as the penalties for a knock down.
		
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Style jumping would make a lot more sense, but I'd rather see it taken out altogether.


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## HashRouge (6 August 2021)

I thought the Irish competitor (Coyle?) was a really good rider, but she was a bit ungracious at the end wasn't she?!


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## OrangeAndLemon (6 August 2021)

HashRouge said:



			I thought the Irish competitor (Coyle?) was a really good rider, but she was a bit ungracious at the end wasn't she?!
		
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Agree, no pat for the horse, she just jumped off and walked away from it as if it was a piece of apparatus rather than a loved and cared for animal. I think the final rider put this in context when she had a terrible ride and yet still patted it when the bell rang for her elimination.


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## Turitea (6 August 2021)

I really hope they do replace riding with cycling in the near future.


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## HashRouge (6 August 2021)

Jeez. Surely, surely Saint Boy shouldn't have been used again after his first round? I think he got a pretty rough ride from his first rider, which really didn't help, and I don't think it's fair, at all, for a horse to be asked to go again with another strange rider when it is clearly that upset. Ignoring the fact it was pretty rough for the German competitor, I just think that from a horse welfare point of view, surely someone should have said, you know what, maybe let's just give this horse a break.


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## MuddyMonster (6 August 2021)

Kat said:



			If they wanted to stick with the military roots a LeTrec or working equitation type test would work well. 

Or something like a short dressage test followed by say 5 fences with marks for style/safety/horsemanship as well as the penalties for a knock down.
		
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I'd love to see a Trec format at the Olympics  



HashRouge said:



			I thought the Irish competitor (Coyle?) was a really good rider, but she was a bit ungracious at the end wasn't she?!
		
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I think this annoyed and saddened me the most. She can obviously ride well so to be so un-horsemanship & un-sportsman like at the end, seems worse. I'd like to have seen mark's taken off for that alone! 

Yes, she might not have had the perfect round but show the horse some thanks and respect.


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## spotty_pony (6 August 2021)

Does anybody know if this will be available to watch on iplayer later if it was on the red button? I am intrigued to watch now as have heard so much about it both on here and on Facebook.


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

spotty_pony said:



			Does anybody know if this will be available to watch on iplayer later if it was on the red button? I am intrigued to watch now as have heard so much about it both on here and on Facebook.
		
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should imagine bits of it will be, they're talking about it now on BBC.


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## Willowbankstables (6 August 2021)

Rowreach said:



			I’m 😳😳 at the people blaming the horses! They didn’t ask to be there, they have to be of a certain standard to be picked but then they are subjected to variable and questionable standards of riders and are expected to perform like an inanimate bit of equipment, to make the sport “fair”?
		
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Absolutely agree. I didn't see the German rider this morning, but it's just been shown on BBC. I had very little sympathy for the rider; I understand why she was upset but bawling and sobbing on the poor horse isn't going to solve the situation. I felt dreadfully sorry for the horse who looked totally scared and confused. All I saw was rider error in the fences it refused. Why on earth do they have to ride an unknown horse!?


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## onlytheponely (6 August 2021)

Poor Saint Boy was being literally hauled around in a Cheltenham gag :-( It was really horrible to watch. 

I only happened to see it because when I turned the TV on it was on the channel this was being shown on. The fact they let them wear spurs as well when some of them have no real idea of where their lower legs are most of the time has made my blood boil for decades. 
I can't remember whether it was Beijing or Seoul when it was absolute carnage, very surprised they're still allowed to do this.


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## Rowreach (6 August 2021)

Omg I have just seen that Team Ireland are blaming the horse for Coyle not medalling.  I am beyond disgusted now.


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

the riders who had clearly put the time in did well in that phase, i think they set the example that others should seek to follow. I found this file earlier when looking for the rules, seems to be a training sort of syllabus... if you consider some have  come up through PC you can see how inadequate this would be by comparison  

https://www.uipmworld.org/sites/default/files/riding_guidelines_v6.pdf


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## Willowbankstables (6 August 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Omg I have just seen that Team Ireland are blaming the horse for Coyle not medalling.  I am beyond disgusted now.
		
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Not classy 🤬


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## Tiddlypom (6 August 2021)

Oh, good grief. Just saw the re run of the German girl's ride on Saint Boy. What an appalling spectacle.

Pundit on BBC1 wondering if horse 25 (Saint Boy) will still be ridden in the mens' pentathlon tomorrow - no, no no .


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## Bernster (6 August 2021)

Modern pentathlon is bonkers!  I agree 1.20 seems excessive and a different format could make more comfortable viewing and more comfortable for horse and rider.  Haven’t seen saint boy go round yet 2nd time but most of these horses are little troopers!


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## Outofpractice (6 August 2021)

It's a nice change to watch a German who can't ride though


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## Fransurrey (6 August 2021)

Just watched the clip of Saint Boy's second round with the German rider, after a non-horsey friend posted on FB, horrified. It was a good reminder of why I never watch the modern pentathlon showjumping round...


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## [59668] (6 August 2021)

Don't understand why it can't be an 80cm jumping and style or something. Would improve things all round surely. 
The very fact that they can continue after 2 refusals at a fence or are only DQ after 2 falls speaks volumes as to the standard that is expected!


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## Kat (6 August 2021)

I just rewatched both of saint boy's rounds and he really should have been withdrawn on welfare grounds after his first round. He was obviously very upset and was not going to be able to jump a second round sensibly. 

He appeared to lose confidence after the first rider got left behind over the first fence and started to slightly cat leap meaning he got socked in the gob again, and as the rider got more nervous she took more of a hold until he downed tools. 

The tack amplified everything, a Cheltenham gag with a running martingale and no second rein in the hands of some very novicey riders was a disaster waiting to happen. It is a testament to the horse that he didn't go up and over. 

Chances of him going in and jumping sensibly in the second round were virtually nil even with a good rider, but the rider was clearly terrified before she started and it is very sad that she didn't feel able to withdraw before it got so bad. The horse should have been subbed after the first round as he was clearly very unhappy. Again it is very lucky that the horse didn't cause a serious accident. 

I do hope that he isn't allowed to compete in the men's event and that serious consideration is given to the rules of the sport to prevent this kind of thing happening.


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## Rowreach (6 August 2021)

Oh good god the comments on Facebook- the horses should just jump the jumps you know 🙄🙄🙄


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## Steerpike (6 August 2021)

I'm sorry I haven't read the whole thread, but where do the horses come from that they use, do they have to be a certain standard?


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## Tiddlypom (6 August 2021)

I hope that the owner steps in and stops Saint Boy from taking any further part in the competition, even if the officials are too weak and pathetic to do so.


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## GreyMane (6 August 2021)

Not seen much but what I saw, I thought the horses were extremely generous, bless 'em, and must come away quite messed-up in some cases. 
Agree the fences are too big for the riders, and disagree with spurs being allowed. Many riders looking nervous and hanging onto the reins for grim death.

Any scope for a petition for changes, do you think?


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## Kadastorm (6 August 2021)

There was a french rider early on who although not her best discipline, was obviously conscious of not socking the poor horse in the mouth. She rode with a relaxed rein and left the horse to it and gave it a good pat.

then there was a Chinese rider I think who, even when she finished, had a really short rein and she was trotting, laughing her head off, with her hands going up and down and yanking the poor horses mouth.

GB competitors normally come from a pony club background, as do many of Ireland’s riders and there is usually a huge difference in ability compared to many others.

only just watching Kate Frenchs round and the difference is immense. Haven’t seen the German rider with Saint Boy yet and not sure I want to. Something really needs to change because it’s not on in 2021 that horses are suffering. Apart from Saint Boy, the horses look to be a really good bunch and some of them I would really want to ride!


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## Kat (6 August 2021)

Tbh I think saint boy was probably a nice horse before his first round and had he been ridden by a better and more sympathetic rider he might have got round ok. He was quite generous to the Russian competitor to begin with then it all got a bit much for him.


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## teapot (6 August 2021)

What surprises me most about MP is the standard doesn't seem to get better, yet the running/shooting does? It's about time the riding is taken as seriously as the four other sports, but unless you've got funding like the Brits have, or be in a country that riding is A proper sport, they'll struggle.

I can't be truly uphauled or discusted at what the German rider did in response - think we've all seen worse locally, or been in a position of sat on a napping horse. I mean her whip use was pretty ineffectual too. Those competitors aren't riders first and I'm just not sure we (collectively) can truly come down on them in the way say one of the pure sj-ers would receive some flack. They clearly need some investment in the sport in their respective countries, but some may well have never sat on a horse that did what Saint Boy did... Hard to get to our heads around I know but they'll see the horse as a tool, not as a partnership, and the short warm up won't help that. Maybe it's time MP changed and coming under FEI rules would be a start...

I'm finding the pure sj a tad more uncomfortable to watch.


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## Michen (6 August 2021)

I cannot believe these even exists. I’d be in hysterics if it wasn’t for the poor horses!!!!!!


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## teapot (6 August 2021)

The UIMP rules are an interesting read - resistance is defined and a known penalty


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## Cloball (6 August 2021)

I actually like the fact it is an unknown horse. I think it makes the sport more accessible you don't NEED horse power and owners etc. This is how the BUCS championships runs. What I don't like is the height of the fences, the fact good horsemanship isn't rewarded above bad horsemanship and the fact it doesn't seem to be taken seriously by a lot of the competitors and thus doesn't improve (arguably gets worse). 



onlytheponely said:



			Poor Saint Boy was being literally hauled around in a Cheltenham gag :-( It was really horrible to watch.

I only happened to see it because when I turned the TV on it was on the channel this was being shown on. The fact they let them wear spurs as well when some of them have no real idea of where their lower legs are most of the time has made my blood boil for decades.
I can't remember whether it was Beijing or Seoul when it was absolute carnage, very surprised they're still allowed to do this.
		
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Beijing was carnage but I think they really struggled to find horses at all.


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## teapot (6 August 2021)

There are rules about behaviour and whip use though, just perhaps not to the FEI standard.


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## hoofprints1994 (6 August 2021)

One of our previous pentathletes was just talking on the BBC, said Annika (german rider) would have had the opportunity before riding to ask for a different horse after seeing Saint Boys difficult first round. But obviously chose not to. She also commented that how tense she was did not help matters. Completely agree with above comments that the horse was really let down here and must have been so upset to start acting up like that.

I've never really enjoyed this event since I first watched it in the London Olympics and one horse reared up and flipped over with his rider (twice if I recall!). It just seems so unfair on the horses getting crashed through massive jumps and then massively losing their confidence - it really doesn't do much for the image of equestrian sport. The height of these fences mean they need to be respected, and sticking riders without the necessary skill/experience on random horses with 20 minute warm up doesn't really set you up for that. Our Olympic eventers were showjumping 1.25/1.30 which puts into perspective how ridiculous it is that these inexperienced riders are expected to jump 1.20!


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## ycbm (6 August 2021)

I think it's a horrid part of the competition and makes it almost a lottery who wins.  The horse part should be replace with another sport or reduced to a quadrathlon, imo.
.


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## Michen (6 August 2021)

Whose the idiot commentator on discovery that keeps saying how happy the horse is and that’s why he’s swishing his tail! She’s clearly horsey ffs.


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## Jeni the dragon (6 August 2021)

They'd be much better doing a similar test to a BYEH class! Small simple dressage test then on to a small course to jump. It would be much kinder to the horses and riders. 
Agree with @hoofprints1994 that the person on the BBC earlier really spoke well and will help a lot of people understand why things went so wrong.


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## Oka (6 August 2021)

Came here to comment and so glad to see it's already being covered. Hi everyone btw. I have no idea what I just watched on bbciplayer but I hope never to have to see that again. That poor. poor horse. Did you notice they were also all wearing spurs...?


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## splashgirl45 (6 August 2021)

she made me wonder if she knew anything at all about the horses,  saying when they keep swishing their tail it means they are enjoying it   i am also shocked that they can fall off twice before being eliminated,  where is health & safety?  what happens if they are concussed the first time and then ride not knowing which way is up....surely they should be d/q if they come off.....one day there will be a very serious injury to someone and maybe one of the horses as well


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## mariew (6 August 2021)

It feels like the German lady didn't stand a chance regardless of what she did - the horse didn't want to be there and looked terrified. I especially didn't like the commentator expert saying she just needed to ride more positively. Unsure of what that meant, boot it in the ribs and whack it on the bum?   

Hopefully the horse part of pentathlon is out in the next Olympics, it's not fair on the horses.


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## shortstuff99 (6 August 2021)

I have just read that the horses normal rider, rides the horse around the course first so all the competitors can see how they jump. The current leader picks their horse and then everyone draws lots. So he must have looked nice under his normal rider? And the poor horses jumped 3 rounds!


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## McFluff (6 August 2021)

hoofprints1994 said:



			One of our previous pentathletes was just talking on the BBC, said Annika (german rider) would have had the opportunity before riding to ask for a different horse after seeing Saint Boys difficult first round. But obviously chose not to. She also commented that how tense she was did not help matters. Completely agree with above comments that the horse was really let down here and must have been so upset to start acting up like that.

I've never really enjoyed this event since I first watched it in the London Olympics and one horse reared up and flipped over with his rider (twice if I recall!). It just seems so unfair on the horses getting crashed through massive jumps and then massively losing their confidence - it really doesn't do much for the image of equestrian sport. The height of these fences mean they need to be respected, and sticking riders without the necessary skill/experience on random horses with 20 minute warm up doesn't really set you up for that. Our Olympic eventers were showjumping 1.25/1.30 which puts into perspective how ridiculous it is that these inexperienced riders are expected to jump 1.20!
		
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Couldn’t agree more. Personally, I find the men’s comp even harder to stomach as they tend to be bigger and stronger.  
The BBC interview was really helpful in explaining the behaviour of poor Saint Boys.


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## Cowpony (6 August 2021)

The part I hated (apart from the German on Saint Boy) was one of the riders who had a refusal and then yanked hard on her horse 's mouth several times before approaching again. She should have been eliminated for that!


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## HashRouge (6 August 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			I have just read that the horses normal rider, rides the horse around the course first so all the competitors can see how they jump. The current leader picks their horse and then everyone draws lots. So he must have looked nice under his normal rider? And the poor horses jumped 3 rounds!
		
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Are you certain about that? Is it definitely in the Olympics?


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## milliepops (6 August 2021)

There's a jumping inspection where the horses are jumped , I think it was on Wednesday for these.


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## shortstuff99 (6 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			There's a jumping inspection where the horses are jumped , I think it was on Wednesday for these.
		
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Ah maybe it was earlier then today which makes it a bit easier.


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## shortstuff99 (6 August 2021)

HashRouge said:



			Are you certain about that? Is it definitely in the Olympics?
		
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Yes they said at the Olympics. MP has said it was wednesday though not today.


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## Equi (6 August 2021)

Only watching this now as I wasn’t aware it was a thing. These riders look terrified. The horses are flippin honest. They are doing more than I ever will in the saddle but blimey you can see the difference from the professionals. 

I havent read the comments.


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## Equi (6 August 2021)

Cairo is lovely.


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## Equi (6 August 2021)

Jhons also lovely 

still not read the comments lol 

feel bad for some of the riders tho I can feel that fear they must feel just thinking about doing it.


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## Fred66 (6 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			I think it's a horrid part of the competition and makes it almost a lottery who wins.  The horse part should be replace with another sport or reduced to a quadrathlon, imo.
.
		
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All the horses are schooled and competent at the height of fences in the competition. There is an element of luck as some will ride better than others but largely this round is to test the horsemanship of the competitors and if the competitor is lacking in ability then the probability is that this round could damage their medal hopes. The point of each round is to find the best all round competitor across the disciplines. 

I would agree that if a horse fails to complete a round with one rider or is judged to be not fit to jump again then an enforced replacement should happen.

The reason that GB tends to do well in MP is that most of our representatives come through from pony club and are accomplished riders that take up the other disciplines, rather than the other way round.


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## Equi (6 August 2021)

Oh gosh. In tears for the German lady/for saint. I don’t think it’s fair to have let saint boy continue as he is clearly more suited to a better standard of rider (again all of these athletes are way better than I am but I’ll never be aiming to ride that course on that standard of horse!!!) Now off to the comments!


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## Equi (7 August 2021)

Outofpractice said:



			It's a nice change to watch a German who can't ride though
		
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Ha!!!!


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## Bernster (7 August 2021)

Poor sportsmanship from the Irish rider, Coyle - jumped off, let the horse go and stormed off.

Oh dear, just seen that last round. Horrible to watch.  Poor rider. Poor horse.


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## Equi (7 August 2021)

Just watched again. Why exactly did the coach punch the horse?

instant elimination for that alone thanks.


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## ycbm (7 August 2021)

Fred66 said:



			All the horses are schooled and competent at the height of fences in the competition. There is an element of luck as some will ride better than others but largely this round is to test the horsemanship of the competitors and if the competitor is lacking in ability then the probability is that this round could damage their medal hopes. The point of each round is to find the best all round competitor across the disciplines. 

I would agree that if a horse fails to complete a round with one rider or is judged to be not fit to jump again then an enforced replacement should happen.

The reason that GB tends to do well in MP is that most of our representatives come through from pony club and are accomplished riders that take up the other disciplines, rather than the other way round.
		
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I'm sorry,  I don't think it's fair on the horses or a good way to decide a 5 part athletic and skill competition.  Horses are not bikes,  they perform differently for different riders.  I saw my mare behave very differently for apparently similarly competent riders while being viewed for sale. I told two they needed to dismount and stop the viewing.  I don't know why people allow their horses to be used for this jumping competition, I wouldn't put one I owned through it.  
.


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## asmp (7 August 2021)

Equi said:



			Just watched again. Why exactly did the coach punch the horse?

instant elimination for that alone thanks.
		
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Didn’t see that.  Which team was it?


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## HashRouge (7 August 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			Yes they said at the Olympics. MP has said it was wednesday though not today.
		
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I didn't mean about the jump inspection, sorry! I meant about the leader getting to choose their horse, as that would have been Schleu, wouldn't it?


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## shortstuff99 (7 August 2021)

HashRouge said:



			I didn't mean about the jump inspection, sorry! I meant about the leader getting to choose their horse, as that would have been Schleu, wouldn't it?
		
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Yes, that was what someone said. She also could have asked to use a reserve horse too.


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## Fred66 (7 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			I'm sorry,  I don't think it's fair on the horses or a good way to decide a 5 part athletic and skill competition.  Horses are not bikes,  they perform differently for different riders.  I saw my mare behave very differently for apparently similarly competent riders while being viewed for sale. I told two they needed to dismount and stop the viewing.  I don't know why people allow their horses to be used for this jumping competition, I wouldn't put one I owned through it. 
.
		
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I would agree that it is not fair to the horses to have incompetent riders on them and that MP should do something to assess/grade riding skills (maybe the level they are allowed to jump at is altered and the scoring altered accordingly ie fully competent up to 120cm earns max 300 points, ok up to 90-100cm max 150 points and inadequate no points awarded. This would force competitors to focus more training time on the riding.
However this sport is unique and the riding test should be influential. If someone can barely swim then you would not expect them to be competing at Olympic level, and similarly with the ride.


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## HashRouge (7 August 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			Yes, that was what someone said. She also could have asked to use a reserve horse too.
		
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I went to go and look this up in the end, because it just didn't sound right. The UIPM rules state that the leader draws their horse first - they don't get to choose https://www.uipmworld.org/sites/default/files/2017_uipm_competition_rules_-_mp_riding_0.pdf. The rules also say that you can only choose to use a reserve horse if your allocated horse has refused/ run-out four times OR if they have been eliminated after 2 rider falls. Saint Boy actually only refused three times, and there isn't anything about what if the horse is eliminated for refusing to move and running the time down! I thought I'd seen somewhere a quote from Schleu's coach where he said that they had requested the reserve horse but been told they couldn't use it because Saint Boy had actually only refused three times. Seems bonkers, but there you go!


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## Skib (7 August 2021)

I have not watched. But over the years I have noticed that most horse owners get accustomed to their own horse and lack the RS experience of simply riding any horse they are given. Was discussing this with OH yesterday as cowboys owned their own saddle, a valuable  bit of equipment, but rode the horse they were allotted by the employer. Which fits the Olympics.

I tend to bond with the horse I hack and found it hard yesterday in a top class lesson to really like and communicate with the different (privately owned) horse I was riding. Physically a much better horse.  
I intend to watch this on catch up. If I can work out the links.


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## Teaboy (7 August 2021)

I don’t think there’s any excuse for the way the majority of the riders rode. These are supposed to be the best of the best in their chosen sport, not just Tom, dick or Harry down the road. These people should clearly be working a lot more on their riding ability regardless of the fact they have other areas to practice. The one area that involves another living being as part of your performance should be the area you know you can perform in because you have developed the skill and not just rely on the horses honesty like it’s a machine or piece of equipment. It did no favours in regards to changing some of the publics opinion on equestrian sports as a whole.


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## southerncomfort (7 August 2021)

Headline just coming through from sky sports: German coach thrown out of Olympics for punching horse. 

Makes me sick to my stomach. 

All the headlines last night were along the lines of: Olympic dream destroyed by disobedient horse.

Poor bloody horse.  Wonder how the owner feels.


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## Kat (7 August 2021)

Dr David Marlin has picked this up now and is encouraging people to complain to the governing body


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## Kat (7 August 2021)

I hope that all those involved in Modern Pentathlon are aware that the eyes of the world are on them today and that they MUST do better.

Sadly I suspect not, the men's event is normally worse.


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## Widgeon (7 August 2021)

HashRouge said:



			I went to go and look this up in the end...Seems bonkers, but there you go!
		
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Thanks for explaining, I was also baffled by this.


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## criso (7 August 2021)

Looking at some of the comments on social media, most are not differentiating between this and other equestrian sports with lots of comments about the cruelty transporting the horses to Japan and worries about what will happen when they get him home.


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## Turitea (7 August 2021)

And here we go again.. the men's turn...


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

criso said:



			Looking at some of the comments on social media, most are not differentiating between this and other equestrian sports with lots of comments about the cruelty transporting the horses to Japan and worries about what will happen when they get him home.
		
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which just shows how poorly understood it all is.

let's hope the men managed to do a better job today.  Saint Boy not in the draw today.


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## Tiddlypom (7 August 2021)

This thread reminds me of the other one when some posters got the hump at the suggestion that they first have a sit on a schoolmaster type before being allowed to ride a potentially sensitive horse that is up for sale.

Just see how much the bad riding had upset some of these horses, and that is with the riders' coaches assisting them in the 20 minute warm up.

If a potential purchaser rocked up to try your horse blethering that they were an Olympic level pentathlete, you'd assume that they could actually ride .


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## Mule (7 August 2021)

southerncomfort said:



			Headline just coming through from sky sports: German coach thrown out of Olympics for punching horse.

Makes me sick to my stomach.

All the headlines last night were along the lines of: Olympic dream destroyed by disobedient horse.

Poor bloody horse.  Wonder how the owner feels.
		
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It's bizarre to me that people who should know better are putting 100% of the blame on the horse. Sadly the coach seems to have the same lack of understanding  as the general public. The horse couldn't be expected to do what the rider requested when the rider had lost emotional control.

I would be absolutely furious if I owned that horse. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the media. If enough media attention is given to it, there may well be trouble for equestrianism in the games.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

nice round from the Australian. i thought the Aus woman did Ok yesterday too? perhaps some countries put more emphasis on it than others. Hopefully the standard will stay like this today.


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## HashRouge (7 August 2021)

Jeez Far West is a real trier isn't he!


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## HashRouge (7 August 2021)

Cuban rider not good at all!


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

this rider looks like someone who can do a decent job of it on a sort of schoolmaster that does it all and comes unstuck on a horse that needs a bit more input from the rider. anyone know what i mean? on the perfect stride and the perfect canter it's not a bad picture. anything slightly wrong and the wheels come off.

if the next rider with that horse is decent then i don't think it'll have an impact tho?


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## Kadastorm (7 August 2021)

apart from the Cuban rider, the men have all been to a much higher standard than the women so far and patting the horses too. This German rider is nice!


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

this is more what people were probably expecting from the german athlete yesterday!


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

so i think the germans have a strong system for rider education don't they? bit like the french with their gallop exams?  the french women were pretty good yesterday.


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## Goldenstar (7 August 2021)

I have rarely been as angry watching a horse sport on TV as I was yesterday watching this the riding needs dropping from this sport .
Those poor horses .
In many countries finding enough horses who could do this job is not that hard but clearly in Japan it was .


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

i don't know. i think these horses are up to standard, they are extremely genuine.  if the riders ride forward in a rhythm and sit securely they are doing the job admirably. it's the wobbly seats and bad hands that cause problems i think.

i agree though it either needs to be dumped or they need to reconsider some kind of assessment of ability before starting.


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## HashRouge (7 August 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			In many countries finding enough horses who could do this job is not that hard but clearly in Japan it was .
		
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I thought the horses look pretty good? It's the riding that's causing most of the issues.


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## Turitea (7 August 2021)

As I mentioned yesterday, I do hope they replace riding with cycling or whatever they fancy.
At the moment, as someone on here said yesterday, the horses are tools in this sport. Wrong attitude and wrong sent message!


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## HashRouge (7 August 2021)

Why on earth does she keep saying that a swishing tail is the sign of a happy horse?!


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

so to me that chinese rider wasn't the neatest but you could see some technical proficiency, he rode forward and the horse had confidence in him in a way that some of the women weren't able to achieve. and you could see him react and see a stride etc. 

i think so far mostly the men are a bit more go-getting about this, they aren't always getting the striding but the horses aren't doubting them as much.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

HashRouge said:



			Why on earth does she keep saying that a swishing tail is the sign of a happy horse?!
		
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uh, yeah.  Even Lucinda wouldn't come out with some of these clangers


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## pistolpete (7 August 2021)

Swishing tail sign of a happy horse????


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## Kadastorm (7 August 2021)

Shame for this guatamalian rider as he seems to be a nice rider.

apart from 3 so far, the riding has been so much better.


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## HashRouge (7 August 2021)

Ah I thought that was a real shame for Fernandez, he wasn't giving that horse a bad round at all. But I guess if you're not so secure in the saddle, that sort of thing can happen easily at 1m20!!


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## J&S (7 August 2021)

I have not seen any of this years competitors for MP but I do remember seeing it in the past and being pretty horrified at the standard of riding.  I am really sad and sorry that things have not changed for the better in general.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

i feel like the second round riders will have an easier time than the women did because the horses aren't losing confidence in this round, the riding is a fair bit better in general but also the men seem very BOLD!!


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

I mean this horse Up To You is a fabulous one isn't he?  he is doing exactly what he's being asked. I do think they are good horses.


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## HashRouge (7 August 2021)

Kadastorm said:



			Shame for this guatamalian rider as he seems to be a nice rider.

apart from 3 so far, the riding has been so much better.
		
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Yes and Guatemala isn't a country with much Olympic representation at all! He was very nice to the horse, shame about the fall!

The Spanish rider was a bit...err...kamikaze!!


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

HashRouge said:



			Yes and Guatemala isn't a country with much Olympic representation at all! He was very nice to the horse, shame about the fall!

The Spanish rider was a bit...err...kamikaze!!
		
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kamikaze is the word  i wonder if they watched the women's sticky rounds and thought that pace and bravery was a better approach (I mean he got round )


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

these are great horses, they really want to jump the fences well. I bet they go well for their regular riders.


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## southerncomfort (7 August 2021)

The sky sports report was much more measured and mentioned that their had been a big negative reaction on SM which led to the German coach being thrown out.

It's also been reported on BBC sport FB page where their is well over 1000 comments from people who found the whole thing upsetting to watch.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

Come on Kairo. I thought this was a lovely horse yesterday.


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## crazyandme (7 August 2021)

What a time for the rein to break!


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## Kadastorm (7 August 2021)

The Spanish rider, although a little hair raising, may have decided it was best to give a forward ride depending on what he was told in the warm up by the owner/rider.

both Mexicans not up to scratch and I wouldn’t be surprised if we don’t see Quidoso again.

Chilean rider also isn’t up to it and also has a broken rein! Surely he should be allowed to go again!?! Not his fault, reins shouldn’t break like that!


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## fetlock (7 August 2021)

I haven't watched it this time, nor in 2016 but watched avidly at London 2012, and remember it  being a bit of a car crash (remember one horse and rider jumping the exit barrier leaving the ring)


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

oh that was strange. Such a genuine horse.


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## OrangeAndLemon (7 August 2021)

crazyandme said:



			What a time for the rein to break!
		
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What a good horse in the way he handled the rein flapping up in his face.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

Kadastorm said:



			The Spanish rider, although a little hair raising, may have decided it was best to give a forward ride depending on what he was told in the warm up by the owner/rider.
		
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yep. if in doubt ride forward seems to work for these horses, they might have a pole but they are honest and they seem to respond well to it.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

Nice round for Poland. that was Kate French's horse yesterday wasn't it?


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## fetlock (7 August 2021)

Dear me. What a genuine horse.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			Nice round for Poland. that was Kate French's horse yesterday wasn't it?
		
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oh and one of the GB athletes has him again today. Hopefully that will go well.


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## Fred66 (7 August 2021)

Turitea said:



			As I mentioned yesterday, I do hope they replace riding with cycling or whatever they fancy.
At the moment, as someone on here said yesterday, the horses are tools in this sport. Wrong attitude and wrong sent message!
		
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Might as well just get rid of the sport altogether in that case !!
Make the riders pass an assessment and alter their standing accordingly. But if you get rid of the riding then it becomes a different sport altogether


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

Fred66 said:



			Might as well just get rid of the sport altogether in that case !!
Make the riders pass an assessment and alter their standing accordingly. But if you get rid of the riding then it becomes a different sport altogether
		
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yeah agreed. I think it's OK for the horses to be the "tools" which they must be, because the athletes have no involvement with them beyond their 20 min slot... *provided* they are adequately competent. It's really obvious which of them have put enough into their riding training, and the others should be doing the same.


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## OrangeAndLemon (7 August 2021)

Well done to Belaud from France, very nice ride.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

case in point, french athlete jumping the combination with one stirrup, no issue. some of the others would have toppled off on the approach.


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## Kadastorm (7 August 2021)

Belaud is a nice rider, shame he got unbalanced and lost his stirrup.


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## Rowreach (7 August 2021)

Fred66 said:



			Might as well just get rid of the sport altogether in that case !!
Make the riders pass an assessment and alter their standing accordingly. But if you get rid of the riding then it becomes a different sport altogether
		
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In terms of horse welfare, why would that be a problem?


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## piebaldproblems (7 August 2021)

Fred66 said:



			Might as well just get rid of the sport altogether in that case !!
Make the riders pass an assessment and alter their standing accordingly. But if you get rid of the riding then it becomes a different sport altogether
		
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Couldn't they replace it with some hand-to-hand combat though, like boxing or wrestling?


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## Rowreach (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			yeah agreed. I think it's OK for the horses to be the "tools" which they must be, because the athletes have no involvement with them beyond their 20 min slot... *provided* they are adequately competent. It's really obvious which of them have put enough into their riding training, and the others should be doing the same.
		
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But this element of the sport has been a disgrace for decades and absolutely nothing has been done to change it. I very much hope it changes now. I hate seeing horses used like this, then blamed for destroying someone’s Olympic hopes 🙄😕😕


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## pistolpete (7 August 2021)

Argh last Frenchman can’t even hold the reins correctly!


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## cold_feet (7 August 2021)

Does MP exist outside of the olympics?


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## piebaldproblems (7 August 2021)

This Austrian was nice, minimal interference with the horse's way of going which is presumably the best way of riding an unknown horse.


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## pistolpete (7 August 2021)

Lovely ride on Aerosmith!


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## Turitea (7 August 2021)

re cold_feet's question: Yes, of course. MP just "lives a life" in the shadow of all other sports between the Olympic Games.


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## piebaldproblems (7 August 2021)

Ukrainian has messy equitation but again didn't seem to be causing horse much upset. That said, this Brit doesn't look too clean a rider either.


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## pistolpete (7 August 2021)

Not impressed by the Brit flapping about. Not that I could do any better!


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## Kadastorm (7 August 2021)

Think Jamie had to work for that as the horse was behind the leg.


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## OrangeAndLemon (7 August 2021)

GB rider wasnt as polished as some of the others but I thought he was effective.


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## Kadastorm (7 August 2021)

but he also didn’t interfere with the horse over the jump, have with his hands


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## piebaldproblems (7 August 2021)

Don't like this guy at all, very harsh hands and a very swishy tail.


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## cold_feet (7 August 2021)

F


piebaldproblems said:



			Ukrainian has messy equitation but again didn't seem to be causing horse much upset. That said, this Brit doesn't look too clean a rider either.
		
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thank you.  Just can’t get my head around how all these events get organised!


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

OrangeAndLemon said:



			GB rider wasnt as polished as some of the others but I thought he was effective.
		
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yeah. much less wincing on behalf of the horses today i think. a little messy but not causing the horse a problem is *Ok* in this sport i think.. in my mind these are a bit like RS horses in terms of what they are getting from the riders - some better than others?


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

this korean rider is looking pretty decent


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## Kadastorm (7 August 2021)

Floriet is a wonderful horse and being given a lovely ride.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

Kadastorm said:



			Floriet is a wonderful horse and being given a lovely ride.
		
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yes. pity about the pole because that was a really nice round.


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## piebaldproblems (7 August 2021)

Lots of mouth opening and closing with this horse, but at least it doesn't have a flash.

Edit: and very happy to see how thankful rider is to horse


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## fetlock (7 August 2021)

Though it's car crash viewing, I do enjoy the pentathlon showjumping, when I remember it's on.
Perhaps they need to drop the fence heights by a pole and perhaps take out the treble. 
It's far from the easiest of courses for a novice rider, especially when they're on a strange horse.


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## Kadastorm (7 August 2021)

Liking this round from Yan Kuf too!


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

fetlock said:



			Though it's car crash viewing, I do enjoy the pentathlon showjumping, when I remember it's on.
Perhaps they need to drop the fence heights by a pole and perhaps take out the treble.
It's far from the easiest of courses for a novice rider, especially when they're on a strange horse.
		
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I don't think I'd want it to be easier. the standard of riding needs to be increased. the athletes that are good riders make it look pretty straightforward.  if the fences were lower then there would be less incentive to improve. How we lowly HHOers get the MP powers that be to work on that somehow, i have no idea though!!


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## Kadastorm (7 August 2021)

So far, I have 8 on a list of competitors that (in my opinion) were not up to the standard. Not saying others weren’t messy but the rest gave with their hands and didn’t interfere too much, allowing the horses to do their job. I do think that they shouldn’t wear spurs because alot of them do not have the lower leg control that’s needed to use them safely.


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## fetlock (7 August 2021)

Another very honest horse, getting them out of trouble so many times.


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## piebaldproblems (7 August 2021)

I don't think any of the SJ events should have spurs as the norm. You can't argue that they're using them for 'refinement' like in the dressage.


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## fetlock (7 August 2021)

Oh dear, put your whip away


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## piebaldproblems (7 August 2021)

That Lithuanian rider uses his crop one more time and I swear-


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## Kadastorm (7 August 2021)

Yep, Lithuanian makes it 9th on my list!


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

Not bad there, got the horse in a rhythm and just sat out of the way and let him do his thing.


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## Willowbankstables (7 August 2021)

southerncomfort said:



			Headline just coming through from sky sports: German coach thrown out of Olympics for punching horse.

Makes me sick to my stomach.

All the headlines last night were along the lines of: Olympic dream destroyed by disobedient horse.

Poor bloody horse.  Wonder how the owner feels.
		
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I've just seen this on BBC news, too. How disgusting. What would happen if a coach was seen punching a competitor!? I feel so upset for that horse. As an owner, I don't know why on earth you'd put them forward to partake in this event.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

and that's a wrap. i think the men did a better job overall. there was much less unbalanced wobbling around and the horses looked more confident in what they were doing. some looked like really good riders.


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## Teaboy (7 August 2021)

The Korean rider rode beautifully. On the most part the men are putting the women to shame.


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## Kadastorm (7 August 2021)

so here is my list:

Cuba 1st
Mexico 1st 2nd
Japan 1st 
Kazaqstan 1st
Egypt 1st
Chile 1st 
China 2nd (I think)
Lithuania (aggressive) 

I think the women need to sort themselves out because the standard of riding was much better today than their riding yesterday.


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## Burghleygirl (7 August 2021)

asmp said:



			Anyone else about to watch this?  Heard on the BBC today that it’s going to a much shorter competition at the next olympics so assume that they’ll probably drop the show jumping. 

our Brit is in 6th place at the moment
		
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Think for the sake of the horses it should be dropped the standard of riding is ibismal people blaming the horses perhaps if they could ride it would help. I wouldn’t consider lending my horse for these people to ride.  The poor horse test wouldn’t even start the course was obviously totally stressed out.  Common sense really would have been to give the poor girl another horse


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

Kadastorm said:



			I think the women need to sort themselves out because the standard of riding was much better today than their riding yesterday.
		
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yeah the difference is quite stark isn't it. i wonder what that's about. Sheer bravery looked to play a part in this, the more the horses believed in the riders the better they went, which made for an easier ride even for the less technically good riders. Like, get in a rhythm and an honest horse will jump a fence pretty well. I don't think that's all of it, but to me there was a big difference in the pace today.


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## Kadastorm (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			yeah the difference is quite stark isn't it. i wonder what that's about. Sheer bravery looked to play a part in this, the more the horses believed in the riders the better they went, which made for an easier ride even for the less technically good riders. Like, get in a rhythm and an honest horse will jump a fence pretty well. I don't think that's all of it, but to me there was a big difference in the pace today.
		
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also, apart from the Lithuanian rider and the Chilean whose reins broke, none of them got stroppy, pretty much all of them patted their horse. Even the USA guy who had a fair few poles gave his horse lots of love and a kiss on the neck. They seemed to appreciate the horses and those horses were VERY good horses.

I’m all for supporting women but when you can only say that 3, maybe 4 at a push were good enough, that’s pretty poor show!


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## HashRouge (7 August 2021)

Fluoriet is a lovely horse! One I'd love to have a ride on!


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

HashRouge said:



			Fluoriet is a lovely horse! One I'd love to have a ride on!
		
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yeah agreed, there were a couple of really classy horses in the mix.


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## Meowy Catkin (7 August 2021)

They need to overhaul this competition.

Either take the horses out or make some big changes to the equestrian element. EG make it worth double points so the competitors have to be riders who also do other events, rather than say a good athlete who dabbles in riding. I would also be tempted to have them ride their own horse rather than have this pool of horses thing going on. Who in their right mind would ever lend a horse to this competition after seeing the riding yesterday (I haven't watched today)?


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## Splash2310 (7 August 2021)

Choong’s hat looks waaay too big for him!


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## mini_b (7 August 2021)

Late to the party but that was a sh!t show.

doesn’t paint our sport in a good light. especially as it fuels the fire for those who are saying all equestrian sport shouldn’t be included at the olympics.

agree with others that the jumps should be considerably lower or omitted altogether. A prix caprilli type event would be better.


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## Equi (7 August 2021)

Saying the jumps should be lower would be a huge benefit to the riders but these horses are clearly up to the job maybe they were underjumped in their eyes - like how a puissance horse would probably demolish a cross pole lol


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## teapot (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			yeah. much less wincing on behalf of the horses today i think. a little messy but not causing the horse a problem is *Ok* in this sport i think.. in my mind these are a bit like RS horses in terms of what they are getting from the riders - some better than others?
		
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Yup agree. Also seen worse in riding schools and out at both unaffiliated and affiliated, yet no one raises an eyebrow in the same way MP seems to get a reaction. 

They're jumping 2cm lower than the smallest fence in the Eventing sj team round...


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

well it's GB gold again, followed by the Egyptian that they said had worked really hard on his riding, and then one of the tidy Koreans in bronze. the riding is pretty influential, it's surprising they don't all put everything they've got into really cracking it.


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## CanteringCarrot (7 August 2021)

Lots of stuff in the news (German) this morning about Annika Schleu. There apparently will be consequences, mostly against her trainer/coach according to one particular article. It's brought up animal welfare stuff, of course.

I'm not sure why they can't do a more "US hunter style" course (not riding that style exactly, but the course). In that the jumps are a bit lower and more natural style/color. Perhaps similar to the hunter derby, or something. I don't know. I'm a bit ignorant about this particular sport, but didn't care for what I saw, for the most part.


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## Mrs. Jingle (7 August 2021)

Rowreach said:



			I’ve not been able to watch modern pentathlon jumping for years, and no way would I ever put a horse of mine through it. I think if they want to keep sj as part of it, the athletes should provide their own horses. It’s just wrong putting these animals through it.
		
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100 per cent my feelings too. There is a good chance that poor horse is now completely mentally sour for any sort of jumping, no matter what level of competing he was at before that ugly fiasco. I am equally sure that trainers/owners willing to allow their horse's to be abused in this event, will use any and every method available to deal with that unwelcome outcome for the horses, but behind closed doors of course. 



Kat said:



			Dr David Marlin has picked this up now and is encouraging people to complain to the governing body
		
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Well there is a surprise, Marlin jumping on the back of a horrible incident when he realises the huge potential to keep his name up there and grab even more exposure purely for his own ends. But then lets face it, he probably does need a bit of positive publicity as negative feed back is increasing for him year on year now. Sorry went slightly off topic just there, but that man's spurious claims and so called 'research' to promote his products just infuriates me!


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## Sheep (7 August 2021)

The winner just described the jumping yesterday as “carnage”…!


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## criso (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			yeah the difference is quite stark isn't it. i wonder what that's about. Sheer bravery looked to play a part in this, the more the horses believed in the riders the better they went, which made for an easier ride even for the less technically good riders. Like, get in a rhythm and an honest horse will jump a fence pretty well. I don't think that's all of it, but to me there was a big difference in the pace today.
		
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I think we've all seen situations where a relaxed and confident but less experienced rider has 8done better that a technically better but nervous one.

The German rider on Saint Boy was awful to watch but I'm not sure what else could have happened assuming he was upset by the first round and didn't want to repeat a bad experience if he could help it.  Sending him back in with an unconfident and inexperienced rider was never going to go well. 
I wonder what happened in the warm up as she appeared to be in tears from the start.   

 If that was your own horse, you'd take it home and rebuild its confidence before coming out again. 

If nothing else there's a strong argument for not asking these horses to do 2 rounds, the riders shouldn't have to undo damage done by a previous bad rider though it does mean they'd have to source more horses.


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## Rowreach (7 August 2021)

teapot said:



			Yup agree. Also seen worse in riding schools and out at both unaffiliated and affiliated, yet no one raises an eyebrow in the same way MP seems to get a reaction.

They're jumping 2cm lower than the smallest fence in the Eventing sj team round...
		
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People riding at riding schools aren’t purporting to be at the pinnacle of their sport, are they?


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## HashRouge (7 August 2021)

Oooh, the new format for 2024 sounds like it might make them up their riding considerably!


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## cold_feet (7 August 2021)

BBC just describing new format for MP for Paris.  It will be over 90 minutes and eliminations after each round.  First round of 36 will be Equestrian and only first 18 will go to second round fencing.  That’s a real incentive to improve the standard of riding!


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

criso said:



			If nothing else there's a strong argument for not asking these horses to do 2 rounds, the riders shouldn't have to undo damage done by a previous bad rider though it does mean they'd have to source more horses.
		
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yeah agreed.


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## Amymay (7 August 2021)

Petition now running on line.

https://www.change.org/p/internatio...ition&utm_term=B>Search>SAP>US>NonBrand>Exact


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

cold_feet said:



			BBC just describing new format for MP for Paris.  It will be over 90 minutes and eliminations after each round.  First round of 36 will be Equestrian and only first 18 will go to second round fencing.  That’s a real incentive to improve the standard of riding!
		
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so as there's clearly an appetite to retain the riding element let's hope that does the job then. As they weren't all rubbish... it clearly can stand up as a sport in a way that doesn't impact the horses negatively but only if the athletes have done their homework.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

there's another petition asking it to come under FEI rules and some other bits and bobs, which would be better IMO

edit, ah no, they're asking for changes to tack, regulation of whips/spurs and for a minimum competency.

well *I* think it ought to be under FEI rules, whatever the bad points that would bring some consistency.


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## teapot (7 August 2021)

Rowreach said:



			People riding at riding schools aren’t purporting to be at the pinnacle of their sport, are they?
		
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No one is saying there are?

The top level of MP is never going to look as polished as the top level of the three main disciplines by a LONG way, and expecting it to is bonkers. So few of MP competitors are riders, some may only ride once a month - what they're asked to do is a huge ask on that basis. Some of those riders would never have sat on the level of horse Tokyo have produced - they all look like decent schoolmasters in their own right, hence milliepops' comment, and will react accordingly.


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## criso (7 August 2021)

On the BBC they were just saying that Kate French came up through pony club but Jo Chung started with swimming.


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## Rowreach (7 August 2021)

teapot said:



			No one is saying there are?

The top level of MP is never going to look as polished as the top level of the three main disciplines by a LONG way, and expecting it to is bonkers. So few of MP competitors are riders, some may only ride once a month - what they're asked to do is a huge ask on that basis.
		
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But it should be polished if it’s going to exist? You don’t see grass roots eventers riding round an Olympic course, or medium dressage riders having a bash at beating Charlotte?

Olympic MP riders should be top level.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

criso said:



			On the BBC they were just saying that Kate French came up through pony club but Jo Chung started with swimming.
		
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i think that showed, she looked good on the horse from the off, and he looked like he was managing to pilot it round fairly well.


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## HashRouge (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			i think that showed, she looked good on the horse from the off, and he looked like he was managing to pilot it round fairly well.
		
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Yes, I agree. He will be lucky though - as part of the GB team I imagine he will have received a good amount of training for the riding. A lot of these competitors won't have had that, especially if they are from a country that doesn't have the funding for its Olympic athletes.


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## Tiddlypom (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			i think that showed, she looked good on the horse from the off, and he looked like he was managing to pilot it round fairly well.
		
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But interestingly KF said afterwards on BBC that the horse was not the type that she normally likes. Her coach got her to ride it more forward, which clearly worked.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			But interestingly KF said afterwards on BBC that the horse was not the type that she normally likes. Her coach got her to ride it more forward, which clearly worked.
		
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yeah the coach was spot on!


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## Fred66 (7 August 2021)

Admittedly the PC tetrathlon (no fencing) is on your own horse but at open level the riding is BE novice level xc so you have to be able to ride, hence why the GB teams tend to do well (albeit Choong didn’t come up through PC).
Not sure that eliminating at each stage is good as it is meant to be best all rounder and they only have 36 start anyway. This will shift the emphasis to the earlier events.


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## teapot (7 August 2021)

Rowreach said:



			But it should be polished if it’s going to exist? You don’t see grass roots eventers riding round an Olympic course, or medium dressage riders having a bash at beating Charlotte?

Olympic MP riders should be top level.
		
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Top level for their OWN sport, not in comparison to the equestrian events. I wonder what the Olympic fencers think of their fencing, or the swimmers re their technique? Not denying that a 1m 20 course is a huge ask, and things need to change, but you're comparing chalk and cheese here.


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## Rowreach (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			i think that showed, she looked good on the horse from the off, and he looked like he was managing to pilot it round fairly well.
		
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She’s something to do with the Boring Gorings so she’s probably used to piloting horses at great speed over big solid fences, so this was a doddle 😉


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## Rowreach (7 August 2021)

teapot said:



			Top level for their OWN sport, not in comparison to the equestrian events. I wonder what the Olympic fencers think of their fencing, or the swimmers re their technique? Not denying that 1m 20 course is a huge ask, and things need to change, but you're comparing chalk and cheese here.
		
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Presumably so long as they don’t stab each other or drown then the standard of the other disciplines evens out and nobody suffers, but the fact is that the majority of them are not capable of riding to what is set as the Olympic level, and they clearly need to do some work or remove the jumping element or revise it in some way.

If as you suggest the level of their skills in all elements is not up to scratch, then MP has no place as an Olympic sport.

Above all, it is the welfare of the horses that matters, and that is what has so shocked the majority of people watching.


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## criso (7 August 2021)

I was in the pony club tetrathalon team and the xc was pretty demanding especially as alot of us were on ponies. It was debatable how 'safe' the shooting was given at the time i had undiagnosed short sight and one of the junior boys did manage to shoot himself in the hand.  Only a pellet but it did go in at close range.


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## teapot (7 August 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Presumably so long as they don’t stab each other or drown then the standard of the other disciplines evens out and nobody suffers, but the fact is that the majority of them are not capable of riding to what is set as the Olympic level, and they clearly need to do some work or remove the jumping element or revise it in some way.

If as you suggest the level of their skills in all elements is not up to scratch, then MP has no place as an Olympic sport.

Above all, it is the welfare of the horses that matters, and that is what has so shocked the majority of people watching.
		
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The 1m20 course is the standard set by UIPM across all national/international levels of modern penthalon I believe. The fences haven't been whacked up because it's the Olympics.


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## Equi (7 August 2021)

Just watching now as I’m done with the sj. Felt sad for Cairo he’s such a gent of a horse.


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## Rowreach (7 August 2021)

teapot said:



			The 1m20 course is the standard set by UIPM across all national/international levels of modern penthalon I believe. The fences haven't been whacked up because it's the Olympics.
		
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Exactly, so none of them are up to the standard demanded and therefore they should not be on stage at the Olympic Games.


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## teapot (7 August 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Exactly, so none of them are up to the standard demanded and therefore they should not be on stage at the Olympic Games.
		
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By saying that, they're also not up to the standard at any of their national/international competitions either? MP isn't any different at the Worlds or Euros. The standard we've seen is the standard seen across the board, and under MP rules is deemed acceptable. Whether it's acceptable under FEI rules is a whole other question/debate, but until MP comes under FEI rules, nothing will change.

ETS: just checked rule book - Olympic MP is equivalent to their World champs and the World Cup final.

Look what's happened to Olympic Eventing - it used to be the pinnacle of the sport, it's not anymore.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

i don't think none were at the standard, there were some very assured rounds, and particularly today some less experienced riders still making a reasonable effort and not troubling their horse IMO.
i think sticking it as the first event may well change everything about this. if you stand a high chance of being eliminated even if you have a bad ride but still get round, the incentive to improve is so much greater.  as mentioned above though some countries may not have much of a support network for training and they might find it's not a sport they can do any more.


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## Parrotperson (7 August 2021)

criso said:



			I was in the pony club tetrathalon team and the xc was pretty demanding especially as alot of us were on ponies. It was debatable how 'safe' the shooting was given at the time i had undiagnosed short sight and one of the junior boys did manage to shoot himself in the hand.  Only a pellet but it did go in at close range.
		
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blimey Charlie! That's hard core.


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## olop (7 August 2021)

I haven’t watched the men’s yet but why are they allowed to wear spurs?! My OH was in fits watching it yesterday but I said to him it’s not really that funny, poor horses! I’d kill to be able to get mine to do a nice round over 1m20 and they were just awful. Not nice to watch at all.


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## Rowreach (7 August 2021)

Well I just come back round to the horses. If the spectacle that was presented yesterday and most certainly over the past few Olympics is indicative of the appalling general level of riding amongst MP athletes deemed to be at the top end of their sport, then the horses should not be subjected to it, ever.


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## Goldenstar (7 August 2021)

In Japan during the wet season it ought to have taken place on grass that was an terrible decision .


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## ycbm (7 August 2021)

Fred66 said:



			However this sport is unique and the riding test should be influential. If someone can barely swim then you would not expect them to be competing at Olympic level, and similarly with the ride.
		
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A swimming pool has no feelings,  imo it doesn't compare. 
.


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## Equi (7 August 2021)

Lovely round from Austria on Aerosmith


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## Parrotperson (7 August 2021)

olop said:



			I haven’t watched the men’s yet but why are they allowed to wear spurs?! My OH was in fits watching it yesterday but I said to him it’s not really that funny, poor horses! I’d kill to be able to get mine to do a nice round over 1m20 and they were just awful. Not nice to watch at all.
		
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Yes I don't think spas OR whips should be allowed. Quite a few fell off or had bad rounds *because* of using them.


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## Fred66 (7 August 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Exactly, so none of them are up to the standard demanded and therefore they should not be on stage at the Olympic Games.
		
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1.20m is not Olympic height SJ, its Olympic height MP SJ, at which height these competitors should be out competing regularly. 
The pure SJ course was 1.50-1.66 with spreads to match.
It is tough but then they should ensure that they are riding at that level.
It’s one part of a 5 element sport so you would not expect them to be the best in the world at each individual element the point is for them to be good allrounders. It was fairly obvious in the women’s event that a significant minority fell far short on the riding front.


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## wispagold (7 August 2021)

MP makes sense as a natural progression from PC tetrathlon but I am not sure it works as an Olympic event. Compared to the heptathlon and triathlon the competitors don't seem to be of the same standard. Maybe having riders compete on their own horse would make the most sense. I think for an Olympic standard a 1.20m course isn't that a big an ask. But on a strange horse, that is then used twice there are way too many variables to make it a fair test.


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## ycbm (7 August 2021)

Kat said:



			Dr David Marlin has picked this up now and is encouraging people to complain to the governing body
		
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Not always the case but this time,  I agree with  him.  
.


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## teapot (7 August 2021)

I mean the rule book states 'the foot must not be attached to the stirrup in any way' - the sport is SO different to what we all know, and that has to be recogised I feel.


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## Goldenstar (7 August 2021)

Jumping 1.20 (?) under pressure on a strange horse ( who may have had an unpleasant experience at shortly before)  is a tall order for many of these riders .
What happened to German rider was set up by the rider before .
That was the unfair luck of the draw for her .
At the very least they should one horse per competitor .
Personally I think it’s a sport whose Olympic days are numbered in the current format .


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## ycbm (7 August 2021)

teapot said:



			Yup agree. Also seen worse in riding schools and out at both unaffiliated and affiliated, yet no one raises an eyebrow in the same way MP seems to get a reaction.
		
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This is supposed to be world class sport people are watching,  not a local run down riding school or an amateur bumbling around a low level BE. The eyes of the world are on this systematic abuse of the horses in the name of medals and "entertainment".
.


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## Rowreach (7 August 2021)

teapot said:



			I mean the rule book states 'the foot must not be attached to the stirrup in any way' - the sport is SO different to what we all know, and that has to be recogised I feel.
		
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Why does that have anything to do with being utterly horrified at what those horses are put through?


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## ycbm (7 August 2021)

Amymay said:



			Petition now running on line.

https://www.change.org/p/internatio...ition&utm_term=B>Search>SAP>US>NonBrand>Exact

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Signed.


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## Mule (7 August 2021)

HashRouge said:



			Ah I thought that was a real shame for Fernandez, he wasn't giving that horse a bad round at all. But I guess if you're not so secure in the saddle, that sort of thing can happen easily at 1m20!!
		
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It makes Robert Whitaker doing puissance bareback even more impressive


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## Goldenstar (7 August 2021)

It has nothing to do with it .


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## teapot (7 August 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Why does that have anything to do with being utterly horrified at what those horses are put through?
		
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It doesn't, just pointing out your cannot compare MP to the main three disciplines.

Did you watch any of the men's? Much better, and again, not disimilar to what we have ALL seen out and about every weekend. Does that horrify you too? Regardless of level, basic welfare is basic welfare - why do so many people turn a blind eye to what happens out at BE 90/100 with riders who probably actually have more experience and know better than these MP competitors? Or people who use their horses as a glorified movable chair out hunting? Yet there's utter uproar about the modern penthalon every four years?

The double standard is what gets on my tits. Perhaps that's the issue - MP riding is far closer to home than some people (generally, not personally) would care to admit...


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## Rowreach (7 August 2021)

teapot said:



			It doesn't, just pointing out your cannot compare MP to the main three disciplines.

Did you watch any of the men's? Much better, and again, not disimilar to what we have ALL seen out and about every weekend. Does that horrify you too? Regardless of level, basic welfare is basic welfare - why do so many people turn a blind eye to what happens out at BE 90/100 with riders who probably actually have more experience and know better than these MP competitors? Or people who use their horses as a glorified movable chair out hunting? Yet there's utter uproar about the modern penthalon every four years?

The double standard is what gets on my tits. Perhaps that's the issue - MP riding is far closer to home than some people (generally, not personally) would care to admit...
		
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Well as it goes I think the pure showjumping this week has been pretty horrific too.

And maybe an uproar about the things that have been shown on worldwide screens will filter down and that will be good for all horse welfare.

I can’t believe anyone is defending this “sport” tbh.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

teapot said:



			It doesn't, just pointing out your cannot compare MP to the main three disciplines.

Did you watch any of the men's? Much better, and again, not disimilar to what we have ALL seen out and about every weekend. Does that horrify you too? Regardless of level, basic welfare is basic welfare - why do so many people turn a blind eye to what happens out at BE 90/100 with riders who probably actually have more experience and know better than these MP competitors? Or people who use their horses as a glorified movable chair out hunting? Yet there's utter uproar about the modern penthalon every four years?

The double standard is what gets on my tits. Perhaps that's the issue - MP riding is far closer to home than some people (generally, not personally) would care to admit...
		
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yeah i have to agree with this. it's on TV and in the news because there are medals at stake so everyone is seeing it. but like you say the issues are not unique to MP as a sport.


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## criso (7 August 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			In Japan during the wet season it ought to have taken place on grass that was an terrible decision .
		
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I wondered why they weren't using the same arena as the sj and apparently all the phases have to take place in the same place.


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## Rowreach (7 August 2021)

This one has a lot of signatures 

https://www.change.org/p/union-internationale-de-pentathlon-moderne-ensure-horse-welfare-in-the-modern-pentathlon?recruiter=false&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=psf_combo_share_initial&utm_term=psf_combo_share_initial&recruited_by_id=41f77280-f767-11eb-a0c8-1bf452465693&utm_content=fht-30214949-en-au:0


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## ycbm (7 August 2021)

teapot said:



			It doesn't, just pointing out your cannot compare MP to the main three disciplines.

Did you watch any of the men's? Much better, and again, not disimilar to what we have ALL seen out and about every weekend. Does that horrify you too? Regardless of level, basic welfare is basic welfare - why do so many people turn a blind eye to what happens out at BE 90/100 with riders who probably actually have more experience and know better than these MP competitors? Or people who use their horses as a glorified movable chair out hunting? Yet there's utter uproar about the modern penthalon every four years?

The double standard is what gets on my tits. Perhaps that's the issue - MP riding is far closer to home than some people (generally, not personally) would care to admit...
		
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How can you stop the lower level crap if stuff like that is shown all around the world at the Olympics every 4 years as acceptable? 

It has to start somewhere and it can't start in the middle if the middle riders can point to a  world championships as being acceptable. 
.


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## ycbm (7 August 2021)

Rowreach said:



			I can’t believe anyone is defending this “sport” tbh.
		
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Me neither 😡

Perhaps some people are forgetting that there is big money changing hands for the "privilege" of showing this systematic abuse as entertainment?


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## Equi (7 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			How can you stop the lower level crap if stuff like that is shown all around the world at the Olympics every 4 years as acceptable?

It has to start somewhere and it can't start in the middle if the middle riders can point to a  world championships as being acceptable.
.
		
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I agree with this. I definitely noticed a difference in the dressage since 2012 and that was after many years of people saying how bad it looked, and then obviously the better pictures started winning. It takes time to filter down but it does happen, and I think future dressage will be even more relaxed both professionally and amateur.

I’d literally never heard of pentathlon before yesterday and I’m sure many others won’t have either. They will now!


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## Fred66 (7 August 2021)

wispagold said:



			MP makes sense as a natural progression from PC tetrathlon but I am not sure it works as an Olympic event. Compared to the heptathlon and triathlon the competitors don't seem to be of the same standard. Maybe having riders compete on their own horse would make the most sense. I think for an Olympic standard a 1.20m course isn't that a big an ask. But on a strange horse, that is then used twice there are way too many variables to make it a fair test.
		
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ALL of these horses are tested at the level, all are capable of going clear. The issue is that some horses are forgiving and some are not. Even the two who caused issues for the German and Irish rider yesterday started out ok, they just got to the point where they said well if you aren’t riding me I’m not doing it with their first round riders which then gave knock on problems to the second round riders.
Whilst what we watched was definitely not pretty and if it was an ongoing reflection of how they are normally treated then I would consider it a welfare issue, but two rounds of being ridden poorly and unsympathetically is highly unlikely to cause any serious welfare issues.

The decathletes, heptathletes, triathletes are not dissimilar, they would be highly unlikely to qualify for the olympics in any of their individual sports. Men’s javelin for example the decathlete throws this year ranged from 50-75m with the actual javelin throwers being in the 90m range


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## teapot (7 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			How can you stop the lower level crap if stuff like that is shown all around the world at the Olympics every 4 years as acceptable?
It has to start somewhere and it can't start in the middle if the middle riders can point to a  world championships as being acceptable.
		
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ycbm said:



			Me neither 😡

Perhaps some people are forgetting that there is big money changing hands for the "privilege" of showing this systematic abuse as entertainment?
		
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I think the changes for the sport will help change that. I'm also not saying what we've watched is 'top notch' but I've seen worse week in week out and for far longer than one MP show jumping round.

Do the eventers jumping tired horses count as abuse? Does the round and subsequent fall of the Irish rider's horse count as abuse?



Fred66 said:



			ALL of these horses are tested at the level, all are capable of going clear. The issue is that some horses are forgiving and some are not. Even the two who caused issues for the German and Irish rider yesterday started out ok, they just got to the point where they said well if you aren’t riding me I’m not doing it with their first round riders which then gave knock on problems to the second round riders.
Whilst what we watched was definitely not pretty and if it was an ongoing reflection of how they are normally treated then I would consider it a welfare issue, but two rounds of being ridden poorly and unsympathetically is highly unlikely to cause any serious welfare issues.

The decathletes, heptathletes, triathletes are not dissimilar, they would be highly unlikely to qualify for the olympics in any of their individual sports. Men’s javelin for example the decathlete throws this year ranged from 50-75m with the actual javelin throwers being in the 90m range
		
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Agree with this.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

teapot said:



			I think the changes for the sport will help change that. I'm also not saying what we've watched is 'top notch' but I've seen worse week in week out and for far longer than one MP show jumping round.

Do the eventers jumping tired horses count as abuse? Does the round and subsequent fall of the Irish rider's horse count as abuse?



Agree with this.
		
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yeah me too. plus i don't buy that the middle riders can't lead improvements because of a particular, fairly niche, thing going on elsewhere. that's a massive cop out.  All of us need to get our houses in order. it's too easy to point at other people cocking up and cast a blind eye over the stuff happening in your own backyard.


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## ycbm (7 August 2021)

Fred66 said:



			The issue is that some horses are forgiving and some are not. .......
Whilst what we watched was definitely not pretty and if it was an ongoing reflection of how they are normally treated then I would consider it a welfare issue, but two rounds of being ridden poorly and unsympathetically is highly unlikely to cause any serious welfare
		
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I think it's a hidden unacceptable abuse of the forgiving ones and a visibly disgusting abuse of the unforgiving ones.  Why the owners allow it is beyond me.  Is it for 5 minutes of fame of saying they own an Olympic horse?

If we want the riding of horses to be banned altogether in future,  then excusing the poor treatment of horses for "world class"  sport and human entertainment, on the basis that it's temporary and won't cause lasting harm,  is imo an effective way to go about making that happen. 
.


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## Equi (7 August 2021)

teapot said:



			Does the round and subsequent fall of the Irish rider's horse count as abuse?

.
		
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Yes. This should not have happened. He should have retired two jumps previous. He has been widely condemned by many on here for this.


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## ycbm (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			yeah me too. plus i don't buy that the middle riders can't lead improvements because of a particular, fairly niche, thing going on elsewhere. that's a massive cop out.  All of us need to get our houses in order. it's too easy to point at other people cocking up and cast a blind eye over the stuff happening in your own backyard.
		
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Nobody is saying that middle riders can't, shouldn't or don't  lead by example.

But people who are abusing their own horses, imo,  aren't likely to stop if they see stuff like that as acceptable at the Olympics,  and personally I would feel unable to challenge them directly if this is seen on a world stage as acceptable.  
.


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## HashRouge (7 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			If we want the riding of horses to be banned altogether in future,  then excusing the poor treatment of horses for "world class"  sport and human entertainment, on the basis that it's temporary and won't cause lasting harm,  is imo an effective way to go about making that happen.
.
		
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This is the key point, I think. If we want equestrian events to remain in the Olympics, they have got to be whiter than white. This has been a tricky games tbh - some very tired horses in the XC, Jet Set being PTS, falls in the SJ, that horrible nosebleed, and then some shocking riding in the modern pentathlon. For many people, this is the only time they will see horses competing and we absolutely have to show them that horse welfare is the most important thing.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			Nobody is saying that middle riders can't, shouldn't or don't  lead by example.

But people who are abusing their own horses, imo,  aren't likely to stop if they see stuff like that as acceptable at the Olympics,  and personally I would feel unable to challenge them directly if this is seen on a world stage as acceptable. 
.
		
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i feel unable to challenge them just because so many people seem to think it's fine to just buy a horse and then ride it poorly, treat it unfairly, talk about how it's taking the p or being a tw*t because it won't let them catch it etc, the whole attitude towards horses at many levels is toxic.  I honestly don't think having MP as an olympic sport is the problem for 99% of horses


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## splashgirl45 (7 August 2021)

how did the horse that was punched get on in the mens ,  i didnt watch any of the mens as i couldnt finish watching the womens as i hated it


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## teapot (7 August 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			how did the horse that was punched get on in the mens ,  i didnt watch any of the mens as i couldnt finish watching the womens as i hated it
		
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Don't think he was used


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## tristar (7 August 2021)

i have not watched much of it, ever cause its so crap.

but caught a glimpse of that woman whose horse was going backwards with its head up who ended up crying, and really thought if that was me i`d have jumped off, that horse was clearly telling her politely to please get off

where are the ringside stewards etc in this, and indeed the owners of the horses

it can`t be fair to either horse or rider who do not know each other, and maybe its similar with jockeys riding several horses a day at meetings,  2 yrs olds barely half grown


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

just the whole "it's supposed to be fun" kind of attitude around horses does my head in, it's not supposed to be fun it's supposed to be *fair* IMO, and sometimes that means recognising that you or your horse aren't competent at something, and going away and putting in the hours to improve. but if you say that you're taken to be raining on someone's parade.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			how did the horse that was punched get on in the mens ,  i didnt watch any of the mens as i couldnt finish watching the womens as i hated it
		
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as TP says he was not in the draw for the men's jumping. 

some of the men also used reserve horses if the first round had gone badly.


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## ycbm (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			i feel unable to challenge them just because so many people seem to think it's fine to just buy a horse and then ride it poorly, treat it unfairly, talk about how it's taking the p or being a tw*t because it won't let them catch it etc, the whole attitude towards horses at many levels is toxic.  I honestly don't think having MP as an olympic sport is the problem for 99% of horses
		
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Neither do I but knowing your feelings about our right to use horses for our pleasure, I'm a wee bit baffled by your apparent defence of this at world level.  2 wrongs never made right, and for me a wrong sanctioned by world level organisation and shown to millions as acceptable is many times the wrong of anything I see done locally. 
.


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## wispagold (7 August 2021)

Fred66 said:



			ALL of these horses are tested at the level, all are capable of going clear. The issue is that some horses are forgiving and some are not. Even the two who caused issues for the German and Irish rider yesterday started out ok, they just got to the point where they said well if you aren’t riding me I’m not doing it with their first round riders which then gave knock on problems to the second round riders.
Whilst what we watched was definitely not pretty and if it was an ongoing reflection of how they are normally treated then I would consider it a welfare issue, but two rounds of being ridden poorly and unsympathetically is highly unlikely to cause any serious welfare issues.

The decathletes, heptathletes, triathletes are not dissimilar, they would be highly unlikely to qualify for the olympics in any of their individual sports. Men’s javelin for example the decathlete throws this year ranged from 50-75m with the actual javelin throwers being in the 90m range
		
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I am not disagreeing with you. Yes, the horses are capable but I don't think it is a fair ask for them to jump round a 1.20m course with a strange rider after only a 20min introduction. However a 1.20m course on a known horse that you have a partnership with and that you have been able to train with should not be too big an ask for an Olympic standard test, surely?? This is meant to be the very top level of the sport.

Of course the hep, Dec and tri athletes don't perform each aspect of their event to the standard of those athletes that focus solely on one event... I wouldn't expect them to. But they often not far off. KJT could compete in high jump when jumping her best and Jess Ennis could do 110m hurdles.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			Neither do I but knowing your feelings about our right to use horses for our pleasure, I'm a wee bit baffled by your apparent defence of this at world level.  2 wrongs never made right, and for me a wrong sanctioned by world level organisation and shown to millions as acceptable is many times the wrong of anything I see done locally.
.
		
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I'm not defending it, if you look back at my posts on this thread i've consistently said the riding needs to improve if it's to stay (I do think that is possible as there have been multiple rounds that were a very good standard ).  and I think it should come under FEI rules because I have a *higher* degree of faith in their ability to do consistent stewarding even if there are issues remaining. 

I just think it's tricky ground, to say that those people are too rubbish, but naturally we are all perfectly fine horsepeople with no issues worth examining.


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## ycbm (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			I just think it's tricky ground, to say that those people are too rubbish, but naturally we are all perfectly fine horsepeople with no issues worth examining.
		
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Nobody has said that, have they?  They haven't even said these riders shouldn't be riding.  All anyone is saying is that this shouldn't any longer be an acceptable part of organised sport at world level.  
.


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## Oka (7 August 2021)

The German coach has been dismissed and sent home. You would hope that that in itself will send a message, and given the backlash I hope there is a closer investigation into this entire practice. I've only just noticed that the poor horse in question is in a gag, with his mouth strapped shut. The riders all seem to wear spurs, which given the kicking going on.... why are the welfare rules not enforced in this event like they are in the rest of the equestrian events? To display this utter parody in front of the world and call it sport. Must admit it's taken the joy out of watching the Olympics a bit for me. In any other event the German rider would have been asked to leave the field, and yes, ring stewards should have been involved. There are no excuses for what we saw, literally none.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			Nobody has said that, have they?  They haven't even said these riders shouldn't be riding.  All anyone is saying is that this shouldn't any longer be an acceptable part of organised sport at world level. 
.
		
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Hmmmmm but the reason for that being insufficient skill for the task at hand having an impact on horse welfare? 
My point is, if I start to think about that, i fall off the edge of the rabbit hole and think, well, why are those few horses a special case compared to the gazillions in private homes that no one watches on TV.


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## tristar (7 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			How can you stop the lower level crap if stuff like that is shown all around the world at the Olympics every 4 years as acceptable? 

It has to start somewhere and it can't start in the middle if the middle riders can point to a  world championships as being acceptable. 
.
		
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if you have to start at the top, so be it.

high profile will reach a  lot of peoples attention, its not just about horsemanship or lack of it, its about the sheer horrible spectacle, regardless of whether one knows a fetlock from a forelock.

treating animals with consideration and fairness is so obviously needed , they dont have the advantage of anticipating the 4 yearly spectacle, and the tension of some of  those riders will be a major contribution to lack of performance


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

Oka said:



			The German coach has been dismissed and sent home. You would hope that that in itself will send a message, and given the backlash I hope there is a closer investigation into this entire practice. I've only just noticed that the poor horse in question is in a gag, with his mouth strapped shut. The riders all seem to wear spurs, which given the kicking going on.... why are the welfare rules not enforced in this event like they are in the rest of the equestrian events? To display this utter parody in front of the world and call it sport. Must admit it's taken the joy out of watching the Olympics a bit for me. In any other event the German rider would have been asked to leave the field, and yes, ring stewards should have been involved. There are no excuses for what we saw, literally none.
		
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this is why i think the riding element should come under the FEI umbrella. it's not like any other equestrian discipline as it has its own governing body. did anyone else see the training guidelines I linked to earlier? i've never seen anything like it within the FEI sports.


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## Rowreach (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			i feel unable to challenge them just because so many people seem to think it's fine to just buy a horse and then ride it poorly, treat it unfairly, talk about how it's taking the p or being a tw*t because it won't let them catch it etc, the whole attitude towards horses at many levels is toxic.  I honestly don't think having MP as an olympic sport is the problem for 99% of horses
		
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But SM today is full of how it was all the fault of the horses and not the MP riders, so maybe now is the time to challenge that for ALL equestrians?


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## Michen (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			Hmmmmm but the reason for that being insufficient skill for the task at hand having an impact on horse welfare?
My point is, if I start to think about that, i fall off the edge of the rabbit hole and think, well, why are those few horses a special case compared to the gazillions in private homes that no one watches on TV.
		
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Because of the example it sets to others I suppose. Particularly non horsey people.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

Rowreach said:



			But SM today is full of how it was all the fault of the horses and not the MP riders, so maybe now is the time to challenge that for ALL equestrians?
		
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I'd totally support that, but the narrative is SO strong. people *enjoy* it in different context - look at the shiteventers FB group, a massive group basically built on the basis of sh!t talking horses. it grew at exponential speed, worldwide. it's hideous. if the equestrian community is encouraging that, then no wonder joe public thinks it's OK to blame the horse.

this is what I mean about getting all of our individual houses in order.


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## Rowreach (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			I'd totally support that, but the narrative is SO strong. people *enjoy* it in different context - look at the shiteventers FB group, a massive group basically built on the basis of sh!t talking horses. it grew at exponential speed, worldwide. it's hideous. if the equestrian community is encouraging that, then no wonder joe public thinks it's OK to blame the horse.

this is what I mean about getting all of our individual houses in order.
		
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I’m in complete agreement with you on that 😕


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

i don't put a lot of faith in the "good example" or "trickle down" effect, there are people on this forum who say they didn't know MP existed as a sport, so erasing the riding element from the event isn't going to have a seismic effect on horse welfare. probably most people won't even notice it happening.

Likewise i don't think that Beryl who is annoyed that dobbin refused the wall 3x at the 70cm RC jumping won't be thinking about whether the olympic SJers set a great example or not. The gap is to great for trickle down to work i think.


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## Equi (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			I'd totally support that, but the narrative is SO strong. people *enjoy* it in different context - look at the shiteventers FB group, a massive group basically built on the basis of sh!t talking horses. it grew at exponential speed, worldwide. it's hideous. if the equestrian community is encouraging that, then no wonder joe public thinks it's OK to blame the horse.

this is what I mean about getting all of our individual houses in order.
		
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That’s one page I decline regularly. Maybe it’s from my years of hho training (Ie don’t post shite pictures of yourself) I don’t have many bad pictures anyway cause I don’t leave the ground these days but I wouldn’t want to post them anyway. I’ve always felt the point of riding was to sit quiet and stay in the saddle, maybe this is why I’m not a better rider?????? Lol


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## ycbm (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			Hmmmmm but the reason for that being insufficient skill for the task at hand having an impact on horse welfare? 
My point is, if I start to think about that, i fall off the edge of the rabbit hole and think, well, why are those few horses a special case compared to the gazillions in private homes that no one watches on TV.
		
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Because they are being held up as an example of world class attainment to countless millions of people.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			Because they are being held up as an example of world class attainment to countless millions of people.
		
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but everyone could recognise the ones that were below standard as such. i doubt anyone at all looked at one of the unbalanced ones falling all over the place and said "oh yeah, now THAT'S horse riding". 

i think there's 2 things going on
Should riding remain in the MP? (for me, depends on whether they can raise the standard)
Would removing riding from the MP improve horse welfare in the general population (for me, no chance. few people will notice).


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## BronsonNutter (7 August 2021)

I'm just going to throw my hat in here as someone who has competed in MP - not internationally but up to british champs etc. 

1) To those saying the riders should be competing on their own horses - this would make it a completely prohibitive sport for most competitors. It's already pretty elite - the sport of private school kids and ex-pony clubbers over here. If you have to add in buying your own horse capable of that level (+ a spare maybe?) and transporting it around the world to jump one round of jumps (there are very few competitions nationally, so at that level they will be competing mostly internationally), then most wouldn't be able to. I wouldn't have been able to for certain! Half of the point is how well you can 'understand' a random horse which is capable of jumping those fences. If you can, you jump well and get lots of points, if you can't ride then you score badly. 
2) Under pentathlon GB you do have to be signed off by an instructor as competent before competing, but I don't know the rules for other NGBs. Maybe this needs introducing if not...
3) In every competition I ever did the owners of the horses dictated if you were allowed to carry a whip or wear spurs. Never got to see any horse I rode in competition beforehand but occasionally would get a word of warning/advice before getting on - that was it!

I'd personally be really disappointed if it got dropped as a part of the sport - it's a major part of it - and modern pentathlon is one of those whacky sports that no one sees except at the olympics, so I doubt it'll have much of an effect on horse welfare across the board... The only thing I can realistically think of to do to improve riding in MP across the board would be to increase the amount of points on offer for it, or add in bonus points for style of riding, to make the riding phase more influential so that those not from the horsey backgrounds originally need to improve to be within a chance of being competitive.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

yesterday there was a PDF file on the olympics website that specified the tack permitted for each horse, whip/spurs/martingale and I had assumed that had come from the owner so thanks for the insight BN.


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## tristar (7 August 2021)

that poor horse who was reversing with his head up, looked so desperately lonely, no one went to help him


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## teapot (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			yesterday there was a PDF file on the olympics website that specified the tack permitted for each horse, whip/spurs/martingale and I had assumed that had come from the owner so thanks for the insight BN.
		
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This one? https://olympics.com/tokyo-2020/oly...N_C45A_MPN-------------------HTST--------.pdf


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

yeah. i assume there was one for the other horses, i don't think they updated it for the reserves brought in today.


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## Rowreach (7 August 2021)

BronsonNutter said:



			I'm just going to throw my hat in here as someone who has competed in MP - not internationally but up to british champs etc.

1) To those saying the riders should be competing on their own horses - this would make it a completely prohibitive sport for most competitors. It's already pretty elite - the sport of private school kids and ex-pony clubbers over here. If you have to add in buying your own horse capable of that level (+ a spare maybe?) and transporting it around the world to jump one round of jumps (there are very few competitions nationally, so at that level they will be competing mostly internationally), then most wouldn't be able to. I wouldn't have been able to for certain! Half of the point is how well you can 'understand' a random horse which is capable of jumping those fences. If you can, you jump well and get lots of points, if you can't ride then you score badly.
2) Under pentathlon GB you do have to be signed off by an instructor as competent before competing, but I don't know the rules for other NGBs. Maybe this needs introducing if not...
3) In every competition I ever did the owners of the horses dictated if you were allowed to carry a whip or wear spurs. Never got to see any horse I rode in competition beforehand but occasionally would get a word of warning/advice before getting on - that was it!

I'd personally be really disappointed if it got dropped as a part of the sport - it's a major part of it - and modern pentathlon is one of those whacky sports that no one sees except at the olympics, so I doubt it'll have much of an effect on horse welfare across the board... The only thing I can realistically think of to do to improve riding in MP across the board would be to increase the amount of points on offer for it, or add in bonus points for style of riding, to make the riding phase more influential so that those not from the horsey backgrounds originally need to improve to be within a chance of being competitive.
		
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“If you can’t ride then you score badly.”  And who suffers? The poor bloody horses.


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## teapot (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			I'd totally support that, but the narrative is SO strong. people *enjoy* it in different context - look at the shiteventers FB group, a massive group basically built on the basis of sh!t talking horses. it grew at exponential speed, worldwide. it's hideous. if the equestrian community is encouraging that, then no wonder joe public thinks it's OK to blame the horse.

this is what I mean about getting all of our individual houses in order.
		
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Is Joe Public even going to be thinking about the penthalon horses in a few weeks time? 'Here we have Dave from Bolton, what's your oustanding memory of Tokyo 2020 Dave?'  I highly doubt Dave is going to say 'the shocking riding at the MP'.



milliepops said:



			yeah. i assume there was one for the other horses, i don't think they updated it for the reserves brought in today.
		
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No, they're in there   Ladento was a reserve but he's in the details.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

teapot said:



			Is Joe Public even going to be thinking about the penthalon horses in a few weeks time? 'Here we have Dave from Bolton, what's your oustanding memory of Tokyo 2020 Dave?'  I highly doubt Dave is going to say 'the shocking riding at the MP'.
		
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no indeed. that's why I can't pin any hopes on binning the riding element somehow resulting in a trickle down effect in equine welfare. it's such small fry!


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## tristar (7 August 2021)

BronsonNutter said:



			I'm just going to throw my hat in here as someone who has competed in MP - not internationally but up to british champs etc. 

1) To those saying the riders should be competing on their own horses - this would make it a completely prohibitive sport for most competitors. It's already pretty elite - the sport of private school kids and ex-pony clubbers over here. If you have to add in buying your own horse capable of that level (+ a spare maybe?) and transporting it around the world to jump one round of jumps (there are very few competitions nationally, so at that level they will be competing mostly internationally), then most wouldn't be able to. I wouldn't have been able to for certain! Half of the point is how well you can 'understand' a random horse which is capable of jumping those fences. If you can, you jump well and get lots of points, if you can't ride then you score badly. 
2) Under pentathlon GB you do have to be signed off by an instructor as competent before competing, but I don't know the rules for other NGBs. Maybe this needs introducing if not...
3) In every competition I ever did the owners of the horses dictated if you were allowed to carry a whip or wear spurs. Never got to see any horse I rode in competition beforehand but occasionally would get a word of warning/advice before getting on - that was it!

I'd personally be really disappointed if it got dropped as a part of the sport - it's a major part of it - and modern pentathlon is one of those whacky sports that no one sees except at the olympics, so I doubt it'll have much of an effect on horse welfare across the board... The only thing I can realistically think of to do to improve riding in MP across the board would be to increase the amount of points on offer for it, or add in bonus points for style of riding, to make the riding phase more influential so that those not from the horsey backgrounds originally need to improve to be within a chance of being competitive.
		
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depends how quantify understanding a random horse

i would say its more like dropping a horse in the shxte, or alternatively endowing horses with the powers of a mind reader


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## Rowreach (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			no indeed. that's why I can't pin any hopes on binning the riding element somehow resulting in a trickle down effect in equine welfare. it's such small fry!
		
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So we ignore a huge welfare issue at the Olympics because it doesn’t solve all other welfare issues at the same time?  Can’t get my head around that one, it’s like not calling out someone for beating a horse at a show because you can’t stop them beating it at home.


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## Tiddlypom (7 August 2021)

Rowreach said:



			“If you can’t ride then you score badly.”  And who suffers? The poor bloody horses.
		
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This with knobs on! It's far more than ride badly/score badly.

It's irrelevant as to how accessible the sport is - the poor s0dding horse doesn't care whether you went to posh school or to the local comp.


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## tristar (7 August 2021)

teapot said:



			Is Joe Public even going to be thinking about the penthalon horses in a few weeks time? 'Here we have Dave from Bolton, what's your oustanding memory of Tokyo 2020 Dave?'  I highly doubt Dave is going to say 'the shocking riding at the MP'.


but if he saw the bad bits and was specifically asked what he thought he may surprise us, non horsey people often do show insight

really there is no such thing as joe public  and dave, i honestly find it disrespectful, sorry nothing personal

if anyone asked me in a few weeks i would probably say, having watched a bit, the tension and stress of those taking part and the horses confusion outweighs any pleasure i derived from what i saw, and that crying girls horse reversing in mp will stay with me forever
		
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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

Rowreach said:



			So we ignore a huge welfare issue at the Olympics because it doesn’t solve all other welfare issues at the same time?  Can’t get my head around that one, it’s like not calling out someone for beating a horse at a show because you can’t stop them beating it at home.
		
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nope, see my post 370
i just think it won't have the impact that some people have suggested.


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## ycbm (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			nope, see my post 370
i just think it won't have the impact that some people have suggested.
		
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I don't think anyone has suggested that it will have any great impact,  just that it makes it extremely difficult to call other people out on bad behaviours when this is broadcast as "world class" horse sport. 

However,  if it continues I can certainly see it having a big impact on hastening the call for the end of all riding of horses, first competitively and many years in the future,  at all.  
.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

i guess i don't see why it's any harder to call out bad riding today than it was this time last week, just because the MP has been on the telly for 2 days.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

plus if Beryl gets pulled up for losing her rag at Dobbin at the 70cm SJ is she going to use the MP performances as her defense? I'm not being awkward i just don't see how it's relevant really.


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## Penny Less (7 August 2021)

I havent seen the incident with the coach striking the horse, but how is  OK  that the riders can use whips and spurs without being sent home ?


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## Tiddlypom (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			i guess i don't see why it's any harder to call out bad riding today than it was this time last week, just because the MP has been on the telly for 2 days.
		
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The MP was broadcast to a global audience as to what it considered to be the acceptable treatment of horses in a competition. No riders were disciplined, just the German coach.

It shows to the non horsey world how some athletes regard the equipment for their sport when it malfunctions, except that this equipment is live and kicking.


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## tristar (7 August 2021)

or being instrumental in bringing changes to the way we ride and train horses,  but then one can`t say that on here without provoking the wrath of the anti unicorn brigade ha ha!


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## palo1 (7 August 2021)

I just want to know how some of those riders even felt confident/competent to take on the equestrian element....and why on earth would they be interested when clearly some of them have little skill or understanding?  The girl featured in the German debacle just looked totally at sea - you just would think that she would have had enough horsemanship to put her hand up and retire in spite of the medals issue.  But I guess...pressure....medals....personal glory.   I know the competitors in the MP are not purely equestrian so there are some 'cultural' issues at play if you like but that, apart from some of the decent rounds, was a brilliant exhibition of how equestrianism can fail horses and show equestrianism in the worst possible light in sporting terms.  I don't think getting rid of that element would change much in horse welfare terms tbh but oh my goodness I really think they should get shot of that if these are the 'best' riders that sport has.  I know that we all see (and possibly are) far worse at local shows etc so it is impossible to know how to change that and improve horsemanship/riding standards but this was a pretty breathtaking exhibition of why horses shouldn't be used as sporting tools in any kind of 'mixed' discipline.  I cannot see it in any way comparable to some of the pure equestrian sports either where at least the competitors and teams behind them are absolutely committed equestrians.  I am sure that my thinking on this is muddled...I really feel it but I didn't feel uncomfortable watching the vast majority of the other equine stuff.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			The MP was broadcast to a global audience as to what it considered to be the acceptable treatment of horses in a competition. No riders were disciplined, just the German coach.

It shows to the non horsey world how some athletes regard the equipment for their sport when it malfunctions, except that this equipment is live and kicking.
		
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but if the argument is that it's too difficult now to call out bad riding at grass roots etc that's irrelevant? because grass roots are horsey people. they ought to know right from wrong.

i'm not defending bad riding in sport, i don't want to see it either. i just can't make the 2 different things join up.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

Penny Less said:



			I havent seen the incident with the coach striking the horse, but how is  OK  that the riders can use whips and spurs without being sent home ?
		
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they are permitted in the rules so...


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## paddy555 (7 August 2021)

Penny Less said:



			I havent seen the incident with the coach striking the horse, but how is  OK  that the riders can use whips and spurs without being sent home ?
		
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/s...ach-kicked-Tokyo-Olympics-PUNCHING-horse.html


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## teapot (7 August 2021)

Penny Less said:



			I havent seen the incident with the coach striking the horse, but how is  OK  that the riders can use whips and spurs without being sent home ?
		
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There are rules about whip use, but they're flaky and spurs are allowed if the owner(s) of the horse says so.



Tiddlypom said:



			The MP was broadcast to a global audience as to what it considered to be the acceptable treatment of horses in a competition. No riders were disciplined, just the German coach.
		
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No riders were disciplined that we know of. This is taken from the UIPM news piece yesterday:

'Now we are looking forward to the Men’s Final tomorrow and I must say to those who do not know our sport so well, the presentation of the facility and the horses were of a high quality. Maybe there were a few moments that you would say were not so nice but I tell you – the horses are absolutely excellent.'

https://www.uipmworld.org/news/toky...entathlon-coronation-day-ice-queen-french-gbr


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## Goldenstar (7 August 2021)

I wanted  to press a button and have Saint Boy land at my house where I could tell him it was ok and he did not need to go showjumping again it’s not very often I would think that .


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## ycbm (7 August 2021)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/s...ach-kicked-Tokyo-Olympics-PUNCHING-horse.html

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The video on that report is just awful. 

I don't know how people on this thread seem to be suggesting that this is nothing to make a big fuss about because it was fleeting,  because that's how the sport is scored to find a worthy winner,  because it will all be forgotten about in a week or two,  because more and worse happens at local level,  or for any other reason at all.  Watching the video I could cry for that poor horse who was just begging for someone to save him.  What owner lets this be done to a horse?


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## palo1 (7 August 2021)

Yeah, it's hard to grasp that someone would allow their horse to be used like that but that absolutely reveals some basic stuff about attitudes to animals that exist and are widely supported - or at least enough for people to sign up for it.


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## Upthecreek (7 August 2021)

I just watched it again. What happened was disgraceful. Even worse is that the rules do not allow an intervention in circumstances like that. It was very clear the horse did not want to jump and once the rider lost control of her emotions somebody should have put a stop to it. Once she finally managed to get the horse moving forward it was pretty obvious how the round was going to go. Why can’t it be in the rules that the rider can switch to another horse in that situation?

ETA it should have been stopped first and foremost for the welfare of the horse. And the rider allowed the opportunity to jump another horse so that she was not effectively out of the competition due to the turn of events.


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## Arzada (7 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			The video on that report is just awful.

I don't know how people on this thread seem to be suggesting that this is nothing to make a big fuss about because it was fleeting,  because that's how the sport is scored to find a worthy winner,  because it will all be forgotten about in a week or two,  because more and worse happens at local level,  or for any other reason at all.
		
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I would like to think that the quick and decisive expulsion of the German coach will send a message to organisers at  local levels that they too can and should act decisively and deal with people who are mistreating horses


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			The video on that report is just awful.

I don't know how people on this thread seem to be suggesting that this is *nothing to make a big fuss about *because it was fleeting,  because that's how the sport is scored to find a worthy winner,  because it will all be forgotten about in a week or two,  because more and worse happens at local level,  or for any other reason at all.
		
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Literally no one has said that?


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## paddy555 (7 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			The video on that report is just awful.

I don't know how people on this thread seem to be suggesting that this is nothing to make a big fuss about because it was fleeting,  because that's how the sport is scored to find a worthy winner,  because it will all be forgotten about in a week or two,  because more and worse happens at local level,  or for any other reason at all.  Watching the video I could cry for that poor horse who was just begging for someone to save him.  What owner lets this be done to a horse?


View attachment 77256

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totally agree. More and worse might happen at local level and it will certainly get a boost from this. Child or more likely teenager has the same problem. Parents who know nothing except how to write the cheque see this. Good bridle to use, whip, spurs all OK. Thump the horse. Well if someone as experienced at the German coach can why not us? 

Why did any owner/trainer let a horse go out in those circumstances with an amateur rider in that bridle? I agree what sort of owner would even consider their horse going into that situation? 
Might just be the colour on  my screen but the tongue on there looks almost blue. 

Disgraceful. I would expect everyone on this forum to totally condemn this, no if's, no buts.
 Why the h*ll was this horse flown around the world to put up with this for human amusement.


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## Goldenstar (7 August 2021)

The horse was flown to Tokyo ! from where ?


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## Velcrobum (7 August 2021)

Penny Less said:



			I havent seen the incident with the coach striking the horse, but how is  OK  that the riders can use whips and spurs without being sent home ?
		
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I read about it in The Telegraph then watched the accompanying video. It was hardly a punch more a shove as the horse was napping backwards into the rails around the ring I had to watch the clip twice to she the shove. Interesting in the public comments many said "that was not a punch"  Of course none of us know how the horse had behaved in the warm up 20 minutes. But as others have said it was not pretty and the athlete should have requested an alternate when she had the option to do so.


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## teapot (7 August 2021)

paddy555 said:



			totally agree. More and worse might happen at local level and it will certainly get a boost from this. Child or more likely teenager has the same problem. Parents who know nothing except how to write the cheque see this. Good bridle to use, whip, spurs all OK. Thump the horse. Well if someone as experienced at the German coach can why not us?

Why did any owner/trainer let a horse go out in those circumstances with an amateur rider in that bridle? I agree what sort of owner would even consider their horse going into that situation?
Might just be the colour on  my screen but the tongue on there looks almost blue.

Disgraceful. I would expect everyone on this forum to totally condemn this, no if's, no buts.
Why the h*ll was this horse flown around the world to put up with this for human amusement.
		
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All the horses were borrowed locally either from private or club homes? 



Velcrobum said:



			I read about it in The Telegraph then watched the accompanying video. It was hardly a punch more a shove as the horse was napping backwards into the rails around the ring I had to watch the clip twice to she the shove. Interesting in the public comments many said "that was not a punch"  Of course none of us know how the horse had behaved in the warm up 20 minutes. But as others have said it was not pretty and the athlete should have requested an alternate when she had the option to do so.
		
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There's a lot of misinformation re requesting a different horse - turns out she couldn't.


Also where's the public criticism over images like these?

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detai...e-jumping-news-photo/1234437871?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detai...ping-team-news-photo/1234516253?adppopup=true


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## littleshetland (7 August 2021)

I managed to find the video. Yes, it's a punch , as in the woman has made a fist shape with her hand.  The horse is running backwards toward the barrier, the rider's desperatly trying to make the horse go forwards (in between sobs).  The riders whole demeanour is one of total distress - almost panic in her efforts to go forward .   The horse backs up to barrier and the coach appears (to me anyway) to shove/push the horse with her fist rather abruptly. To be completely honest, imo, I doubt the horse even felt it that much, I think the rider was causing all the problems.  The whole thing's just horrible to watch - poor horse.  Just heard a news report on R4 that the rider was a tearful mess before she even got on the poor thing.


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## Oka (7 August 2021)

It was accompanied by 'hit him, hit him right' or similar words.  The entire reaction of more than just that German rider seems to be if the horse doesn't go, hit it, if it still doesn't go, hit it again and harder. That is not horsemanship.  The rider came into the ring already in tears so something had gone wrong beforehand. She was visibly upset before she even started which will not have helped poor Saint Boy. My worry is that the focus is entirely on this rider, in the same competition we saw horses presented wrongly at jumps and hit if they didn't jump from a stride and a half out. Horses refusing and being hit by an obviously furious rider. Another rider leapt off her horse as he walked out of the ring, and walked away while he is loose, his groom only a appeared a few seconds later(at a run, bless her, in contrast to the horses being met by a team to ensure they were well cared for in all the other equestrian events, where are the teams of people with water and ice for these horses?). Riders wearing spurs and daylight showing between leg and horse as they ram their heels in. Gag bits and tight nosebands being practically used as weapons as the horses are yanked about. THis is at Olympic level? As has been said, what in the nine hells happens at the lower levels where all the eyes of the world are not on them? In literally any local show at least two of these riders would have been asked to leave the field by the stewards. 

If the horse section is kept then put rules in place, no spurs, no gag bits, snaffle bits only. FEI rules and inspection of horses because I wish someone had checked them over for blood and brusing. I honestly hope that the backlash means that the horse section is taken out, and I dont' say that lightly. I used to think that this was a sport I would have enjoyed, I'd rather walk over hot coals than support it in any way after seeing both the coverage on the television AND the following blame aimed at the horse by athletes and press alike. Basically if they can't be trusted with them then take their horses away, put in some other event in involving inanimate equipment.

It has soured my enjoyment of the Games to be honest, but more than that, it has brought the Olympics into disrepute, which frankly I think will do far more towards something being done about it.



Velcrobum said:



			I read about it in The Telegraph then watched the accompanying video. It was hardly a punch more a shove as the horse was napping backwards into the rails around the ring I had to watch the clip twice to she the shove. Interesting in the public comments many said "that was not a punch"  Of course none of us know how the horse had behaved in the warm up 20 minutes. But as others have said it was not pretty and the athlete should have requested an alternate when she had the option to do so.
		
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## Chianti (7 August 2021)

teapot said:



			All the horses were borrowed locally either from private or club homes?



There's a lot of misinformation re requesting a different horse - turns out she couldn't.


Also where's the public criticism over images like these?

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detai...e-jumping-news-photo/1234437871?adppopup=true

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detai...ping-team-news-photo/1234516253?adppopup=true

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I've watched very little of the Olympic equestrian cover. As I get older I have very little interest in watching horses with their mouths strapped shut, that are unable to raise their heads above a set level and have been bred with increasingly unnatural movement. I could weep at what we do to horses in the name of 'sport' and 'entertainment.' The photos above are shocking as these are meant to be the elite and if they're riding like that then god help horses. I didn't see the women's MP but watched a few of the men today. The first rider - on a grey?- was appalling and the poor horse still tried its best. Why do owners put their horses forward? I've seen video of the German rider. Why was she allowed to keep going when the horse kept refusing or knocking down fences?


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## Goldenstar (7 August 2021)

I have no idea why owners would put their horses forward I certainly would not .


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## mle22 (7 August 2021)

The whole thing was horrific to watch, totally unacceptable, but really the German coach did not ‘punch’ the horse. To focus on that is daft given the debacle the whole competition was from the first rider to the last with very few exceptions.


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## oldie48 (7 August 2021)

I felt very sad for the German rider, she didn't rise to the occasion of having to ride a horse that had already proved to be difficult (I suspect the horse had shut down) but she had been training towards this competition for years, was in first place and her emotions must have been running pretty high. The poor horse was badly ridden for less than 2 minutes but this rider will have this video with her for years, poor kid! It reminded me of when Laura Collett had Kauto Star shut down when she was trying to do an exhibition ride (sorry can't remember which show), she didn't cope well and received the most horrendous abuse on social media. TBH if you haven't been in such a high pressure situation, I think it's very unfair to criticise, but that's MPOV. Perhaps the MP needs to be made "modern",  get rid of the showjumping and replace it with a BMX challenge then if things don't go according to plan at least no horses are involved and everyone gets the same bike to kick around!
fwiw I have seen worse riding at local shows than at the olympics, these horses and ponies get ridden appallingly day in and day out, often badly shod in poorly fitting tack and often obese  (rider and mount), frequently lame as well. I can't help thinking that we are picking the wrong target?


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## mariew (7 August 2021)

paddy555 said:



			totally agree. More and worse might happen at local level and it will certainly get a boost from this. Child or more likely teenager has the same problem. Parents who know nothing except how to write the cheque see this. Good bridle to use, whip, spurs all OK. Thump the horse. Well if someone as experienced at the German coach can why not us?
		
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That's a rather sweeping statement. I would say parents and kids would look more at what was going on in the showjumping rather than modern pentathlon?  

Plus the debate that has followed is probably not a bad one and highlights the ugly side that should be avoided which cannot be a bad thing. I have seen social media reactions from non horsey friends that have been shocked about the treatment of the horses.


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## Velcrobum (7 August 2021)

Popped back to D Telegraph and looked further at the comments, The top rated comments were all criticising the rider pointing out that the whole point of the 20 minutes before the round is for the rider to suss out the horse and adapt their riding accordingly. One person said the horse was reacting to its rider having a tantrum in the saddle. The ex MP athlete used by the BBC said it is up to the rider to create empathy with their horse and that the German's uncontrolled tension would have transmitted to said horse and made the situation worse.


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## Kat (7 August 2021)

I have a nasty feeling that the punishment of the coach is a way of the governing body looking like they have done something to answer the outcry rather than address the problem. 

The sanction is pathetic. Banned from the rest of the Olympics, after the event she coaches is over, wow, that will really make her think. 

No sanction of any riders or officials. No commitment to review the circumstances. 

That poor horse didn't stand a chance. The picture YCBM posted clearly shows the gag is being pulled so tight it has hit the noseband. I would be amazed if he wasn't injured by the way that bit and martingale combination was being used by both riders. I haven't heard any news from any vets. It is really distressing.


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## splashgirl45 (7 August 2021)

i am amazed that a horse would have a gag on with a tight noseband and to be ridden by what looks like a novice rider.  if he has been jabbed in the mouth a few times its not surprising he was running backwards.  i wouldnt ride any horse in a gag with only one rein and i am pretty competent and have a secure seat....i would imagine this is what the owner rides him in which begs the question, if he has to have such a severe bit, is he suitable to be used in this competition.  i think they could replace this with prix caprilli,  i bet most of you will never have competed in that.  its a walk,trot canter test with 2 small cavaletties to jump.  it needs a bit of skill and wouldnt be so exciting for the general public to watch but better for the horses.... i looked at the list re what was allowed and most of them allowed everything and i think only one of them said no to spurs, so if that is how the owners think, what hope is there?


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## teapot (7 August 2021)

Kat said:



			I have a nasty feeling that the punishment of the coach is a way of the governing body looking like they have done something to answer the outcry rather than address the problem.

The sanction is pathetic. Banned from the rest of the Olympics, after the event she coaches is over, wow, that will really make her think.

No sanction of any riders or officials. No commitment to review the circumstances.

That poor horse didn't stand a chance. The picture YCBM posted clearly shows the gag is being pulled so tight it has hit the noseband. I would be amazed if he wasn't injured by the way that bit and martingale combination was being used by both riders. I haven't heard any news from any vets. It is really distressing.
		
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splashgirl45 said:



			i am amazed that a horse would have a gag on with a tight noseband and to be ridden by what looks like a novice rider.  if he has been jabbed in the mouth a few times its not surprising he was running backwards.  i wouldnt ride any horse in a gag with only one rein and i am pretty competent and have a secure seat....i would imagine this is what the owner rides him in which begs the question, if he has to have such a severe bit, is he suitable to be used in this competition.  i think they could replace this with prix caprilli,  i bet most of you will never have competed in that. its a walk,trot canter test with 2 small cavaletties to jump.  it needs a bit of skill and wouldnt be so exciting for the general public to watch but better for the horses.... i looked at the list re what was allowed and most of them allowed everything and i think only one of them said no to spurs, so if that is how the owners think, what hope is there?
		
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This is the horse jumping with the first rider before they had issues:

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detai...of-russia-news-photo/1234498255?adppopup=true


(We ran prix caprilli for the kids once at camp, it was chaos in a good way!) Also horses will be seen slightly differently in Japan (as they are in China and the Middle East) compared to Europe so allowing spurs may be seen as the norm.


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## Goldenstar (7 August 2021)

That’s was a really difficult bitting combination to ride a horse you don’t know in a difficult high stressed situation .
A Waterford gag with one rein , strange choice .


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## Regandal (7 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			The video on that report is just awful.

I don't know how people on this thread seem to be suggesting that this is nothing to make a big fuss about because it was fleeting,  because that's how the sport is scored to find a worthy winner,  because it will all be forgotten about in a week or two,  because more and worse happens at local level,  or for any other reason at all.  Watching the video I could cry for that poor horse who was just begging for someone to save him.  What owner lets this be done to a horse?


View attachment 77256

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Possibly the same kind of people who think this is ok?


Brute force to yank the horse round. It’s ok though, because it’s Nick Skelton. 😔. Zoom in and look at the horses eyes.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

we can pull up ugly photos of literally everything you can do with a horse. if people are wanting to ban the riding in the MP in order to stop the general public calling for the end of all horse sport i think that's a pretty short sighted idea tbh because everything has indefensible moments.
we need to strive to make it all better (or quit riding and encourage others to do the same...)


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## wispagold (7 August 2021)

This...


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## splashgirl45 (7 August 2021)

well said ingrid,  it seems everyone in the horse community feels the same so maybe something will be done but dont hold your breath!!!!


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## Rowreach (7 August 2021)

oldie48 said:



			fwiw I have seen worse riding at local shows than at the olympics, these horses and ponies get ridden appallingly day in and day out, often badly shod in poorly fitting tack and often obese  (rider and mount), frequently lame as well. I can't help thinking that we are picking the wrong target?
		
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It's not about picking the wrong target, it's about addressing something that a lot of people worldwide are talking about this weekend, and which to my mind should not happen in any context, but in this context the Olympic Games, again.

Which things are we all going to ignore and let slide because there are worse things apparently going on at the same time (which we should be addressing as well)?  Why not take advantage of the worldwide coverage this has got, and use it to educate, review, change something that has been going on for decades but is only really seen once every four years?  Why are so many people on this thread, horse people no less, defending MP because it has always had the riding element in it, instead of accepting that change is needed?

I'm still stunned at the suggestion that if you ride badly in MP you get a bad score, and that that is somehow ok


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## tristar (7 August 2021)

that its a kind of dirty trick across a horse is obvious to all

the whole thing is a world wide showcase, it has reached far more people than a local show, kids on ponies are better than some of those riders, they have shown themselves to be incompetent, exploitative, and proved they should be removed from the games by the very fact they seem oblivious to what viewers are seeing and how they are reacting and that they have cut their own throats

its funny how things come to the end of the road


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## Amymay (7 August 2021)

Blah, blah, blah…..

It was a disgraceful episode. The standard of riding has _always_ been shite - this year even more so.

There’s not much more to say really - other than it should be dropped.  Let them use bicycles instead.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

I hadn't taken it to mean that it was all groovy if you rode badly and just got a bad score,  my feeling was that was a lever to use to drive an improvement in the riding skill. If your ride score was so bad that you were always at the bottom of the heap, you'd either give up, or improve?


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## fetlock (7 August 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			i am amazed that a horse would have a gag on with a tight noseband and to be ridden by what looks like a novice rider.  if he has been jabbed in the mouth a few times its not surprising he was running backwards.  i wouldnt ride any horse in a gag with only one rein and i am pretty competent and have a secure seat....i would imagine this is what the owner rides him in which begs the question, if he has to have such a severe bit, is he suitable to be used in this competition.  i think they could replace this with prix caprilli,  i bet most of you will never have competed in that.  its a walk,trot canter test with 2 small cavaletties to jump.  it needs a bit of skill and wouldnt be so exciting for the general public to watch but better for the horses.... i looked at the list re what was allowed and most of them allowed everything and i think only one of them said no to spurs, so if that is how the owners think, what hope is there?
		
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Is Prix Caprilli not a thing anymore? A shame if so. It was always included at RC area trials and the RC championships back in the day.

Equitation jumping was another one. Maybe they could consider that one to raise standards. Slightly more interesting to watch than the Prix Caprilli.


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## Regandal (7 August 2021)

Genuine question - why is show jumping part of MP anyway? What does it show?  I don’t doubt that they are very fit, accomplished athletes but surely something other than show jumping a strange horse could be found to test their skills.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

Regandal said:



			Genuine question - why is show jumping part of MP anyway? What does it show?  I don’t doubt that they are very fit, accomplished athletes but surely something other than show jumping a strange horse could be found to test their skills.
		
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From wiki



			As the events of the ancient pentathlon were modeled after the skills of the ideal soldier to defend a fortification of that time, Coubertin created the contest to simulate the experience of a 19th-century cavalry soldier behind enemy lines: he must ride an unfamiliar horse, fight enemies with pistol and sword, swim, and run to return to his own soldiers.
		
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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

Guess these days sj is easy to score and understand as well as accessible for practice?


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## Rowreach (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			I hadn't taken it to mean that it was all groovy if you rode badly and just got a bad score,  my feeling was that was a lever to use to drive an improvement in the riding skill. If your ride score was so bad that you were always at the bottom of the heap, you'd either give up, or improve?
		
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Well no it wasn't you that said that.

I think for me it's that the riding has always been utter cr*p, everyone knows it is, the horses have always suffered because of it, and yet the sport has done nothing to make any improvements for itself, and therefore this sort of adverse publicity should be rammed down their throats to make them sort themselves out because they had their chances and they haven't taken them.


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## teapot (7 August 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Well no it wasn't you that said that.

I think for me it's that the riding has always been utter cr*p, everyone knows it is, the horses have always suffered because of it, and yet the sport has done nothing to make any improvements for itself, and therefore this sort of adverse publicity should be rammed down their throats to make them sort themselves out because they had their chances and they haven't taken them.
		
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I think that given the likes of Ingrid Klimke and Isabella Werth have spoken out, it may be different this time. It was bad at London and Rio, why did it not happen then? Or does it take an established equestrian nation to behave badly for things to change?


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## Amymay (7 August 2021)

teapot said:



			I think that given the likes of Ingrid Klimke and Isabella Werth have spoken out, it may be different this time. It was bad at London and Rio, why did it not happen then? Or does it take an established equestrian nation to behave badly for things to change?
		
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Where have they commented?


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## Regandal (7 August 2021)

“Coubertin created the contest to simulate the experience of a 19th-century cavalry soldier behind enemy lines: he must ride an unfamiliar horse, “
I’m sure they could design a mechanical horse to perform some interesting moves.


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## Rowreach (7 August 2021)

teapot said:



			I think that given the likes of Ingrid Klimke and Isabella Werth have spoken out, it may be different this time. It was bad at London and Rio, why did it not happen then? Or does it take an established equestrian nation to behave badly for things to change?
		
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Thats a very good question.


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## tristar (7 August 2021)

doing some working equitation moves and jumping a few individual jumps, and basing the scoring on pure style, and showing relaxed communication between horse and rider instead of a clear round, might have provided a more edible spectacle


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## teapot (7 August 2021)

Amymay said:



			Where have they commented?
		
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Ingrid has on her social media, Werth - various German pieces online.


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## tristar (7 August 2021)

teapot said:



			I think that given the likes of Ingrid Klimke and Isabella Werth have spoken out, it may be different this time. It was bad at London and Rio, why did it not happen then? Or does it take an established equestrian nation to behave badly for things to change?
		
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the time is right for change

the ripe fruit falls off the tree


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## criso (7 August 2021)

The video is being shared on social media and non horsey people are not making the distinction between MP and other equestrian events.  What they are seeing is an Olympic athlete hitting a horse. As far as they are concerned, this is a top athlete.  Being in the Olympics confers that legitimacy.  They are not commenting and asking questions about the fornat of mp, they are asking why are horses allowed to be used in sport at all.


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## Amymay (7 August 2021)

teapot said:



			Ingrid has on her social media, Werth - various German pieces online.
		
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No idea what Werth’s comments are as can’t read German ☹️


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## Orangehorse (7 August 2021)

Wasn't there an article in H & H leading up to the London Olympics about selecting the horses for the pentathlon?

I was musing on this because they obviously need a reasonable horse, one that can jump a decent set of show jumps, so who is going to loan their nice horse to be ridden by a complete unknown?  Wouldn't a horse like this be usually ridden by their owner at a show and be kept for a competition.  So that leaves riding school horses really.


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## MyBoyChe (7 August 2021)

Aside from the fact that it is such an unfair and downright stupid thing to do to a horse, its actually, as we all know, potentially quite dangerous riding horses full stop!! I know all sport carries risk but I think they are less likely to suffer a life changing injury with the other 4 aspects to MP than riding a horse they dont know over a course of fences with not much practise.  I think its more by luck than judgement that noone got hurt and for the life of me I dont understand why its OK for them to continue after a fall, all the other equestrian events state you cant continue!!  How often do they ride in training and how often are they tested to see whether they actually can ride to a decent standard.  I think if they are going to keep riding in, they should either do a basic walk, trot and canter dressage test or a Trec style event, no jumping allowed


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## teapot (7 August 2021)

Amymay said:



			No idea what Werth’s comments are as can’t read German ☹️
		
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Google translate 



Orangehorse said:



			Wasn't there an article in H & H leading up to the London Olympics about selecting the horses for the pentathlon?

I was musing on this because they obviously need a reasonable horse, one that can jump a decent set of show jumps, so who is going to loan their nice horse to be ridden by a complete unknown?  Wouldn't a horse like this be usually ridden by their owner at a show and be kept for a competition.  So that leaves riding school horses really.
		
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For London, it primarily was private owners and a lot of selection trials. I know of someone who did and she's locally well known on the sj and pc circuits. Not many riding schools left with horses capable of jumping 1m20, nor would they be able to spare the horsepower! Think for Rio, a fair few were provided by the military or did I make that up?

As said previously Tokyo horses were private owners or saddle clubs in the area, some jumping a lot bigger than 1m20.


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## Rowreach (7 August 2021)

Amymay said:



			No idea what Werth’s comments are as can’t read German ☹️
		
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“Isabell Werth, the most successful rider in the world, clearly criticizes the use of horses in modern pentathlon. 

“It has nothing to do with equestrian sport as we practice and know it,” said the German dressage rider on Friday. “The whole system has to be changed.””


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## TheMule (7 August 2021)

Orangehorse said:



			Wasn't there an article in H & H leading up to the London Olympics about selecting the horses for the pentathlon?

I was musing on this because they obviously need a reasonable horse, one that can jump a decent set of show jumps, so who is going to loan their nice horse to be ridden by a complete unknown?  Wouldn't a horse like this be usually ridden by their owner at a show and be kept for a competition.  So that leaves riding school horses really.
		
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It is a business to train and own MP horses- Jabeena, the GB team coach, owns most of the GB ones but others are drafted in too. Suspect Japan did the same- their riders will train on some specific MP horses


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

Some of those horses were very high quality,  worlds apart from your "average" RS  horse imo. Perhaps that was part of the issue.


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## Amymay (7 August 2021)

Rowreach said:



			“Isabell Werth, the most successful rider in the world, clearly criticizes the use of horses in modern pentathlon.

“It has nothing to do with equestrian sport as we practice and know it,” said the German dressage rider on Friday. “The whole system has to be changed.””
		
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Thanks xxx


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## paddy555 (7 August 2021)

Regandal said:



			“Coubertin created the contest to simulate the experience of a 19th-century cavalry soldier behind enemy lines: he must ride an unfamiliar horse, “
		
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I wasn't aware there was a course of show jumps behind most enemy lines and it doesn't say anywhere he has to be able to take said horse show jumping. . 

If he was riding as a soldier then a 25 mile ride would be more appropriate. There used to be competitive trail rides, 7/8 mph. This would be a much better test on a more commonplace horse the pentathlete would be more easily able to cope with. I expect the war horse would be expected to be able to carry on after it's ride (could be off to another battle) so the test would also be to bring the horse home in a condition fit to continue. Could have trec style obstacles along the way, even small cross country type jumps.


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## wispagold (7 August 2021)

paddy555 said:



			I wasn't aware there was a course of show jumps behind most enemy lines and it doesn't say anywhere he has to be able to take said horse show jumping. .

If he was riding as a soldier then a 25 mile ride would be more appropriate. There used to be competitive trail rides, 7/8 mph. This would be a much better test on a more commonplace horse the pentathlete would be more easily able to cope with. I expect the war horse would be expected to be able to carry on after it's ride (could be off to another battle) so the test would also be to bring the horse home in a condition fit to continue. Could have trec style obstacles along the way, even small cross country type jumps.
		
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I actually really like this idea. Maybe with an orienteering aspect to it so that they have to map read and navigate.


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## teapot (7 August 2021)

paddy555 said:



			I wasn't aware there was a course of show jumps behind most enemy lines and it doesn't say anywhere he has to be able to take said horse show jumping. .

If he was riding as a soldier then a 25 mile ride would be more appropriate. There used to be competitive trail rides, 7/8 mph. This would be a much better test on a more commonplace horse the pentathlete would be more easily able to cope with. I expect the war horse would be expected to be able to carry on after it's ride (could be off to another battle) so the test would also be to bring the horse home in a condition fit to continue.
		
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and that's how three day eventing was born


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## The Fuzzy Furry (7 August 2021)

paddy555 said:



			I wasn't aware there was a course of show jumps behind most enemy lines and it doesn't say anywhere he has to be able to take said horse show jumping. .

If he was riding as a soldier then a 25 mile ride would be more appropriate. There used to be competitive trail rides, 7/8 mph. This would be a much better test on a more commonplace horse the pentathlete would be more easily able to cope with. I expect the war horse would be expected to be able to carry on after it's ride (could be off to another battle) so the test would also be to bring the horse home in a condition fit to continue. Could have trec style obstacles along the way, even small cross country type jumps.
		
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They would be better off doing the roads, tracks and hazards round the edge of the xc course, Inc a timed section say in trot....


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## piebaldproblems (7 August 2021)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			They would be better off doing the roads, tracks and hazards round the edge of the xc course, Inc a timed section say in trot....
		
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Some TREC hybrid then?


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## The Fuzzy Furry (7 August 2021)

piebaldproblems said:



			Some TREC hybrid then?
		
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Yup ☺


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## oldie48 (7 August 2021)

Rowreach said:



			It's not about picking the wrong target, it's about addressing something that a lot of people worldwide are talking about this weekend, and which to my mind should not happen in any context, but in this context the Olympic Games, again.

Which things are we all going to ignore and let slide because there are worse things apparently going on at the same time (which we should be addressing as well)?  Why not take advantage of the worldwide coverage this has got, and use it to educate, review, change something that has been going on for decades but is only really seen once every four years?  Why are so many people on this thread, horse people no less, defending MP because it has always had the riding element in it, instead of accepting that change is needed?

I'm still stunned at the suggestion that if you ride badly in MP you get a bad score, and that that is somehow ok 

Click to expand...

I've suggested moving away from Sj in the MP but I see you have chosen not to include that part of my post. However, I stand by what I have said later (also not posted) that I see more sustained abuse of horses in the non pro equestrian world.


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## Winters100 (7 August 2021)

Velcrobum said:



			I read about it in The Telegraph then watched the accompanying video. It was hardly a punch more a shove as the horse was napping backwards into the rails around the ring I had to watch the clip twice to she the shove. Interesting in the public comments many said "that was not a punch"  Of course none of us know how the horse had behaved in the warm up 20 minutes. But as others have said it was not pretty and the athlete should have requested an alternate when she had the option to do so.
		
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I also did not see any big 'punch' to the horse in the clip I watched.

For me expelling the coach misses the point, I do not believe that she hurt the horse based upon what I have seen. The horse was obviously distressed, and either in pain, or not experienced enough or suited to such a situation for whatever reason, and it is the fact that the competition continued at this point that bothers me more.  An owner in this situation would (hopefully) react very differently to a competitor with a medal at stake, who did not even know the horse.  It seems to me that they are seeking to show that they have addressed the problem by expelling the coach, when the reality is that this should never have happened, and the horse should never have been in this situation.  Why it was not stopped when the horse started showing distress is beyond me.  I also read that this horse was later ridden by another competitor who failed to get it as far as the first jump - if this is correct why on earth was a distressed animal sent in to the arena again, and why did the owners allow it?

Shocking, and I hope that the owner and organizers are now ashamed of themselves.


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## milliepops (7 August 2021)

Winters100 said:



			I also read that this horse was later ridden by another competitor who failed to get it as far as the first jump - if this is correct why on earth was a distressed animal sent in to the arena again, and why did the owners allow it?
		
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For clarity, that's not correct, the German rider was the last to go and the horse was not included in the draw for the mens sj today.


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## Peglo (7 August 2021)

I think the Fosbury flop in the high jump can show how finding a great technique and skill can change the entire sport from the Olympics to training children starting out the sport. I just feel all Olympians should perform at top level. If throwing knives around human targets was an Olympic sport and no one got hurt in the actual sport but plenty of people were hit by knives in the MP or heptathlon then they wouldn’t allow it to go ahead because they ‘can’t be expected to be top of all fields of the competition.’ There’s no way those horses came away from that pain free.

I like the idea of having horses part of the MP but it is not working and welfare of horses MUST be priority and they just weren’t. I would far rather a pony club games/obstacle style thing if it had to go ahead. Looping a hoop on a joust, jumping off and sprinting along buckets and vaulting back on, maybe a couple of smaller jumps etc. I feel it would be less harsh on the horses and make the riders do more work and have better skills than sitting on an amazing horse who is so willing whilst they are hauling on their mouths, jabbing spurs into their sides and whipping them. (Not all rode like that obviously but even one is one too many)


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## Winters100 (7 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			For clarity, that's not correct, the German rider was the last to go and the horse was not included in the draw for the mens sj today.
		
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Thanks Millipops. I checked the article that I read earlier,and you are right, although it says that the poor horse had _previously_ refused to jump for Russian competitor Gulnaz Gubajdullina, so strange that horses do 2 rounds with different competitors - surely big advantage to whoever rides the 2nd time round (albeit not in this case)

Horrible situation and I hope that the poor horse is now at home resting and getting over this stress.


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## Equi (7 August 2021)

teapot said:



https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detai...ping-team-news-photo/1234516253?adppopup=true

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Is it just me or does it look like this horse has worn it’s teeth away 😬


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## fetlock (7 August 2021)

Peglo said:



			I think the Fosbury flop in the high jump can show how finding a great technique and skill can change the entire sport from the Olympics to training children starting out the sport. I just feel all Olympians should perform at top level. If throwing knives around human targets was an Olympic sport and no one got hurt in the actual sport but plenty of people were hit by knives in the MP or heptathlon then they wouldn’t allow it to go ahead because they ‘can’t be expected to be top of all fields of the competition.’ There’s no way those horses came away from that pain free.

I like the idea of having horses part of the MP but it is not working and welfare of horses MUST be priority and they just weren’t. I would far rather a pony club games/obstacle style thing if it had to go ahead. Looping a hoop on a joust, jumping off and sprinting along buckets and vaulting back on, maybe a couple of smaller jumps etc. I feel it would be less harsh on the horses and make the riders do more work and have better skills than sitting on an amazing horse who is so willing whilst they are hauling on their mouths, jabbing spurs into their sides and whipping them. (Not all rode like that obviously but even one is one too many)
		
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A handy pony/timed roads and tracks event round the edges of the cross country course, with a gate to open and shut, a few natural small fences to pop over along the way, with penalties given for being too fast as well as too slow. Something like that would still be within the spirit of the event. In fact more so. I guess it could work in an arena to some extent too. 
Have them carry a raw egg in their pocket, with penalties if they crack it.
Ok, it's a bit "It's a Knockout" but would be interesting to watch and easier on the horse.


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## Equi (7 August 2021)

I think the point of the pentathlon is that it’s all in one place though. So they can do all 5 events one after the other (I’m just saying what I heard the commentator say)

but I do agree a trec style test would be much better, cause it’s technical and you have to show decent skill to open and close a gate etc. May not be as “exciting” to them but would hopfully be a damn sight nicer to the horses. And as with trec, the better the style/speed with style the bigger the marks. Trec won’t tolerate poor horsemanship.


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## Mule (8 August 2021)

Equi said:



			I think the point of the pentathlon is that it’s all in one place though. So they can do all 5 events one after the other (I’m just saying what I heard the commentator say)

but I do agree a trec style test would be much better, cause it’s technical and you have to show decent skill to open and close a gate etc. May not be as “exciting” to them but would hopfully be a damn sight nicer to the horses. And as with trec, the better the style/speed with style the bigger the marks. Trec won’t tolerate poor horsemanship.
		
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I think for the riding part to be Olympic worthy it has to be more ambitious in terms of skill required than things like opening and closing a gate.


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## meleeka (8 August 2021)

I think this sport is insulting to the actual showjumpers.  They take years training and building up partnerships with their horses and learning the skills to get round a course.  To me, this part of the decathlon implies that all you need to be able to do is ride!


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## Sandstone1 (8 August 2021)

Equi said:



			Is it just me or does it look like this horse has worn it’s teeth away 😬
		
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The teeth do look odd.


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## laura_nash (8 August 2021)

Mule said:



			I think for the riding part to be Olympic worthy it has to be more ambitious in terms of skill required than things like opening and closing a gate.
		
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I think there's plenty of skill required to quickly and cleanly open and close a gate etc trec-style on your average random trekking pony type horse.  As much as there is to hang on to and steer a SJ schoolmaster type whilst it jumps around a course for you, basically relying on (and probably mucking up) all the hard work its owner/trainer has done rather than the riders input (which was what a lot of the riders were doing). 

 It would be much more in keeping with the original intent (how likely is it the random horse you nicked behind enemy lines is a well trained SJer) and make it easier for host countries that don't have a big SJing tradition.  

Most importantly it would show up the riders and non riders without compromising the horses welfare, providing strict rules on tack and behaviour were enforced.


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## ycbm (8 August 2021)

Sandstone1 said:



			The teeth do look odd.
		
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Crib biter?
.


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## little_critter (8 August 2021)

Amymay said:



			Where have they commented?
		
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I’ve seen comments from both on Facebook


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## ycbm (8 August 2021)

laura_nash said:



			I think there's plenty of skill required to quickly and cleanly open and close a gate etc trec-style on your average random trekking pony type horse.  As much as there is to hang on to and steer a SJ schoolmaster type whilst it jumps around a course for you, basically relying on (and probably mucking up) all the hard work its owner/trainer has done rather than the riders input (which was what a lot of the riders were doing). 

 It would be much more in keeping with the original intent (how likely is it the random horse you nicked behind enemy lines is a well trained SJer) and make it easier for host countries that don't have a big SJing tradition.  

Most importantly it would show up the riders and non riders without compromising the horses welfare, providing strict rules on tack and behaviour were enforced.
		
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If being able to ride is the test they originally wanted I would mix and match Trec, handy pony, dressage and western pleasure?  stuff,  so I'd include

Gate open and close with top points for one hand on the gate from start to finish.

Reverse through an L of poles

Trot up to a box of poles,  stop in the box,  trot away.  Repeat in canter. 

Shoulder in, travers and half pass in trot.  

4 simple changes on a 5 loop serpentine in 60m. 

Anything else?


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## Tiddlypom (8 August 2021)

The MP horses each jumped 4 rounds, all with different riders, over the two days - twice in the womens' event, and then again twice in the mens'.

Coincidentally Kate French and Joe Choong drew the same horse.

I didn't see any evidence after each round of the immediate vet check/aggressive cooling off that the proper show jumpers and eventers got .


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## Sandstone1 (8 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			Crib biter?
.
		
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Maybe.  Another sign of stress.


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## laura_nash (8 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			If being able to ride is the test they originally wanted I would mix and match Trec, handy pony, dressage and western pleasure?  stuff,  so I'd include

Gate open and close with top points for one hand on the gate from start to finish.

Reverse through an L of poles

Trot up to a box of poles,  stop in the box,  trot away.  Repeat in canter.

Shoulder in, travers and half pass in trot. 

4 simple changes on a 5 loop serpentine in 60m.

Anything else?
		
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Jump a "ditch". 

Maybe the "under low branches" test as per trec.


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## shortstuff99 (8 August 2021)

Statement today https://www.uipmworld.org/news/uipm...-welfare-and-athlete-safety-modern-pentathlon


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## oldie48 (8 August 2021)

Perhaps a JAS type competition but with much lower jumps would be a better measure but I still don't know how you'd deal with a horse that naps badly or shuts down like this horse did. It's not as if these riders can do what we do when things go wrong, we just accept that it can happen and go home and work on putting things into place so it doesn't happen again but for these competitors it's not like that. With all the current focus on the pressures put on athletes (and the pressure they put on themselves) and the consequences for their mental health, I'm really shocked by how judgemental some people are.


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## fetlock (8 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			If being able to ride is the test they originally wanted I would mix and match Trec, handy pony, dressage and western pleasure?  stuff,  so I'd include

Gate open and close with top points for one hand on the gate from start to finish.

Reverse through an L of poles

Trot up to a box of poles,  stop in the box,  trot away.  Repeat in canter.

Shoulder in, travers and half pass in trot. 

4 simple changes on a 5 loop serpentine in 60m.

*Anything else*?
		
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An "around the world".

In their swimming cossies and trainers -  straight after the swimming when they're still dripping wet - with their fencing blades strapped to their backs and guns tucked into their pants.

That'll sort the wheat from the chaff...


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## marmalade76 (8 August 2021)

Kat said:



			If they wanted to stick with the military roots a LeTrec or working equitation type test would work well. 

Or something like a short dressage test followed by say 5 fences with marks for style/safety/horsemanship as well as the penalties for a knock down.
		
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Agreed, even a simple xc course would be more appropriate to the roots of it.


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## paddy555 (8 August 2021)

oldie48 said:



			Perhaps a JAS type competition but with much lower jumps would be a better measure but I still don't know how you'd deal with a horse that naps badly or shuts down like this horse did. It's not as if these riders can do what we do when things go wrong, we just accept that it can happen and go home and work on putting things into place so it doesn't happen again but for these competitors it's not like that. With all the current focus on the pressures put on athletes (and the pressure they put on themselves) and the consequences for their mental health, I'm really shocked by how judgemental some people are.
		
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did you miss post 396.  What about the horse's mental health? or doesn't that matter. Oh and the whip, the spurs and the pressure on his head and mouth. Spectator sport for the pleasure of the rider and followers. Now't to do with the horse's welfare.


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## oldie48 (8 August 2021)

paddy555 said:



			did you miss post 396.  What about the horse's mental health? or doesn't that matter. Oh and the whip, the spurs and the pressure on his head and mouth. Spectator sport for the pleasure of the rider and followers. Now't to do with the horse's welfare.
		
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My post doesn't ignore the welfare of the horse just raises the issue of the mental health of the rider. I don't see how the abuse she is receiving and there is plenty around, helps to improve the welfare of any horse in any way. I don't want to see horses being ridden like that anymore than you do and my previous posts make that clear. I'd prefer to see the equestrian element of the MP removed entirely and replaced with a modern equivalent (see my first post) but if it is to remain then I have suggested an alternative (JAS at a lower height) which I think would encourage a better standard of riding, however, I understand there are already plans to change the format of the MP which would seem to be a very positive way forward.


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## tristar (8 August 2021)

but they dont have the right to put their pressures on the horse, who understandably could become confused and agitated by the sheer tension of these people, they know what they are about so should have the skill to calm, settle and prepare the horse, because its as much about that as jumping a round, the horsemanship part, cause they aint machines for god sake!

when you enter the arena in front of the world you will be judged on the manner in which you perform as much as on your success


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## criso (8 August 2021)

From what I've read the planned format changes are about making it quicker and easier for viewers to understand.  In Paris everything will happen in 90 minutes with short breaks between phases.  Riding will be first and competitors will be elminated at each stage leaving only 12 for the final run. 

Obviously after what's happened there are additional discussions taking place but the planned format changes won't change anything for the jumping in fact putting more time pressure may make it rushed giving even less time to consider the horse.


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## milliepops (8 August 2021)

criso said:



			From what I've read the planned format changes are about making it quicker and easier for viewers to understand.  In Paris everything will happen in 90 minutes with short breaks between phases.  Riding will be first and competitors will be elminated at each stage leaving only 12 for the final run.

Obviously after what's happened there are additional discussions taking place but the planned format changes won't change anything for the jumping in fact putting more time pressure may make it rushed giving even less time to consider the horse.
		
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but if you face getting eliminated right at the start might it also encourage people to really work on improving their riding?
One of the men's medalists was someone that the commentators pointed out had really worked hard on his riding training and if that was the case then it really had paid off.


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## criso (8 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			but if you face getting eliminated right at the start might it also encourage people to really work on improving their riding?
One of the men's medalists was someone that the commentators pointed out had really worked hard on his riding training and if that was the case then it really had paid off.
		
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It depends on how far riding challenges are the result of not enough effort or lack of aptitude and temperament.  I know loads of people who don't jump anymore and ride probably far more often than these athletes do i.e several times a week with regular lessons.  Luckily they don't happen to be good at 4 other sports so no one expects them to leave the ground.

However I do think there will be a little less pressure at the start, the women on Saint Boy was in the lead. If she was right down the bottom, if she was struggling in the warm up, she might have chosen to retire.  Looking at the state she was in right from when she got in the ring, I suspect the problems had started before.

The only things I can think of to make it kinder on the horses if this format stays would be more time.  Allocate horses to riders for the duration, make them available earlier i.e. days before and assessment by independent experts to make sure the combination are safe before allowing them to continue.


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## oldie48 (8 August 2021)

tristar said:



			but they dont have the right to put their pressures on the horse, who understandably could become confused and agitated by the sheer tension of these people, they know what they are about so should have the skill to calm, settle and prepare the horse, because its as much about that as jumping a round, the horsemanship part, cause they aint machines for god sake!

when you enter the arena in front of the world you will be judged on the manner in which you perform as much as on your success
		
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Of course they don't have the right to behave like this and tbh I don't think there's anyone on here would suggest that they do but humans are not machines either. We make mistakes, we let our emotions get the better of us, we are flawed, fortunately most of us never have the experience of making a massive mistake or mess of things which is recorded and there on the internet for all to see forever. I can't imagine the anguish that this young woman must be feeling, she can't go back and do things differently and she is the subject of a lot of media attention and as you say in your post  she will be judged! Regardless of how anyone else feels, I feel very sad for her but that does not mean I condone abusive behaviour towards any animal, in "Oldies world" the two things are not mutually exclusive.


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## Casey76 (8 August 2021)

Equi said:



			Is it just me or does it look like this horse has worn it’s teeth away 😬
		
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That should be captioned “the two faces of Olympic SJ”


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## Casey76 (8 August 2021)

oldie48 said:



			Of course they don't have the right to behave like this and tbh I don't think there's anyone on here would suggest that they do but humans are not machines either. We make mistakes, we let our emotions get the better of us, we are flawed, fortunately most of us never have the experience of making a massive mistake or mess of things which is recorded and there on the internet for all to see forever. I can't imagine the anguish that this young woman must be feeling, she can't go back and do things differently and she is the subject of a lot of media attention and as you say in your post  she will be judged! Regardless of how anyone else feels, I feel very sad for her but that does not mean I condone abusive behaviour towards any animal, in "Oldies world" the two things are not mutually exclusive.
		
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She willfully and repeatedly abused a horse on live television for ego.  And then had a temper tantrum and took that temper out on the horse.  She deserves to be held up and called an abuser.


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## paddy555 (8 August 2021)

oldie48 said:



			Of course they don't have the right to behave like this and tbh I don't think there's anyone on here would suggest that they do but humans are not machines either. We make mistakes, we let our emotions get the better of us, we are flawed, fortunately most of us never have the experience of making a massive mistake or mess of things which is recorded and there on the internet for all to see forever. I can't imagine the anguish that this young woman must be feeling, she can't go back and do things differently and she is the subject of a lot of media attention and as you say in your post  she will be judged! Regardless of how anyone else feels, I feel very sad for her but that does not mean I condone abusive behaviour towards any animal, in "Oldies world" the two things are not mutually exclusive.
		
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but she didn't make a mistake what she did was deliberate horse abuse. Looking at the pics of that horse that was what it was. No getting away from it. You have a choice whether to use a whip on a horse. 
She put her desire to win above looking after the horse. 

You can't imagine the anguish she felt. I can't imagine the anguish and pain the horse felt. 

She will be judged and I hope she is, harshly. Perhaps that will highlight unacceptable behaviour to others competing with horses.

She had the choice of giving up the horse when it was first obvious it wasn't going to work and I don't know why her coach or the stewards didn't put an abrupt halt to it. When she managed to get into the ring and it went seriously wrong she could have dismounted and led him out. 

She  shouldn't have been competing in an event that required animals if she couldn't control her temper and that horse most certainly shouldn't have been there for it's own welfare. 

She reminded  me of a small child having a temper tantrum. 

The Nick Skelton pic earlier in this thread doesn't do horse competitors any favours either.


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## milliepops (8 August 2021)

tbf i didn't see temper, i saw complete anguish in that athlete's face, from her posture and body language she appeared to be crying in desperation not in anger, she patted the horse at the end. the coach, i rewatched it and to me it was the coach appeared to be feeling something different. I thought the athlete looked pretty broken, she came into the arena looking defeated and carried on like that, she didn't look like she was losing her temper to me, losing her grip mentally, yes.

for the avoidance of doubt, since it seems like anything less than furious condemnation is taken to be taken as enthusiastic MP flag waving support, no, i don't think it should continue in its present form and no i don't condone horse abuse and no i wouldn't let anyone use my horses for it


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## FinalCanter (8 August 2021)

Goodness, I personally thought some riders did okay concerning making it around the course in a way that wasn't a bother to the horse. I had to turn off my social media. Non equestrians are up in arms about horses in the Olympics again- what else is new- and the armchair judges are acting as if _all _the riders were terrible (Which there where a few decent ones if they had more training). It deeply saddens me how no matter what, horses will never truly be accepted as a qualifying sport to the general public. All they see is the exclusiveness of it.

Concerning the woman, Saint boy should've been pulled from round one, and although I can understand her frustration, there comes a point where you should've just gotten off and not force the animal on. It wasn't going to happen. A medal isn't worth the safety of both horse and rider in the slightest.

I also strongly agree that the jumps were out of reach for many of the riders. They need to lower the jumps and set higher standards for the riding, horsemanship and tbh the sportsmanship aspects.


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## Elf On A Shelf (8 August 2021)

FinalCanter said:



			A medal isn't worth the safety of both horse and rider in the slightest.
		
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As has previously been shown by many equestrians at the Olympics this year including 2 on the British team. 

These so called pentathletes need to take a leaf out of a regular equestrians book.


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## ycbm (8 August 2021)

FinalCanter said:



			the armchair judges are acting as if _all _the riders were terrible
		
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How many riders being predictably terrible year after year are you prepared to accept?  My own answer to that is zero.  This competition is set up time after time knowing some horses will be abused (deliberately or accidentally)  by less than capable riders.  We don't,  imo, have the right to plan to treat sentient beings that way, still less display it as world class sport, to millions.  
.


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## ycbm (8 August 2021)

FinalCanter said:



			Non equestrians are up in arms about horses in the Olympics again- ......... It deeply saddens me how no matter what, horses will never truly be accepted as a qualifying sport to the general public. All they see is the exclusiveness of it.
		
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There are plenty of equestrians up in arms about it too.


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## tristar (8 August 2021)

oldie48 said:



			Of course they don't have the right to behave like this and tbh I don't think there's anyone on here would suggest that they do but humans are not machines either. We make mistakes, we let our emotions get the better of us, we are flawed, fortunately most of us never have the experience of making a massive mistake or mess of things which is recorded and there on the internet for all to see forever. I can't imagine the anguish that this young woman must be feeling, she can't go back and do things differently and she is the subject of a lot of media attention and as you say in your post  she will be judged! Regardless of how anyone else feels, I feel very sad for her but that does not mean I condone abusive behaviour towards any animal, in "Oldies world" the two things are not mutually exclusive.
		
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the difference is we can make choices that horses have no say in, i would think its not the first time the reversing horse has done that, so would have been a poor choice for the competition

its a tough day for her, but you get over it and move on, the essence of sport is to take defeat gracefully, so i was surprised to see her crying, this is why they need decide where it went wrong,  it seemed to me the 

horse was expressing some very clear emotions

this was a particular scenario of unique moments, very few go to the games, the pressure is enormous, but at the end of the day its only sport.


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## FinalCanter (8 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			How many riders being predictably terrible year after year are you prepared to accept?  My own answer to that is zero.  This competition is set up time after time knowing some horses will be abused (deliberately or accidentally)  by less than capable riders.  We don't,  imo, have the right to plan to treat sentient beings that way, still less display it as world class sport, to millions. 
.
		
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I just added to my message the standards need to be up to par, but I'm not going to paint every rider with the same brush. Some rode decently. You are acting as if MP equestrian phase is the only equestrian olympic sport that has had mishaps. There are times in which horses and riders in the dressage rounds and eventing rounds (from capable riders) should have had a safety check. There were horses in the eventing phase that were too old and struggling, there were riders in the dressage round that had their horses heads behind the vertical. Unless I'm not understanding you correctly, all equestrian sports imo need to be up to par. Even 'capable' riders get away with certain things at the expense of the horse.


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## ester (8 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			tbf i didn't see temper, i saw complete anguish in that athlete's face, from her posture and body language she appeared to be crying in desperation not in anger, she patted the horse at the end. the coach, i rewatched it and to me it was the coach appeared to be feeling something different. I thought the athlete looked pretty broken, she came into the arena looking defeated and carried on like that, she didn't look like she was losing her temper to me, losing her grip mentally, yes.
		
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It certainly seemed to me that we saw the end of an eventful 20 mins of getting to know said horse, probably some emotional discussion as to why she couldn't swap to the reverse horse and she knew it wasn't going to happen. 
It frustrates me that it has thrown up issues in every olympics yet they don't seem to have ever been properly addressed. There is quite a lot that could be put into place to make it better. 
I did also wonder about the horses doing 2 rounds and 2 lots of 20 mins in relatively quick succession given the heat.


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## ycbm (8 August 2021)

FinalCanter said:



			You are acting as if MP equestrian phase is the only equestrian olympic sport that has had mishaps.
		
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I don't call it "mishaps" to give people 20 minutes to ride a horse they don't know before jumping 1m 20, when year after year it produces the same result.  Honest horses abused for trying their best with riders who are not up to the task.  

It's completely unnecessary. You can't win show jumping gold without show jumping.  But the modern pentathlon is supposed to be a test of horsemanship and there are a million and one other ways to test that without socking a horse in the teeth over a fence because the rider is being carried as an ineffective passenger.  
.


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## FinalCanter (8 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			I don't call it "mishaps" to give people 20 minutes to ride a horse they don't know before jumping 1m 20, when year after year it produces the same result.  Honest horses abused for trying their best with riders who are not up to the task. 

It's completely unnecessary. You can't win show jumping gold without show jumping.  But the modern pentathlon is supposed to be a test of horsemanship and there are a million and one other ways to test that without socking a horse in the teeth over a fence because the rider is being carried as an ineffective passenger. 
.
		
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Yes, I think they need to lower the jumps, or put in a different type of test for them (equitation or dressage) for it, but you glossed over the main point of my message about everything needs to be better and up to par, including MP. You are looking to bait arguments, as you've been on many pages of this thread with the same points. We hear you, many of us do agree to an extent already.

I'm going to move on as I've already expressed my points to you. Let's agree to disagree. Cheers.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (8 August 2021)

Have you guys read this?
https://www.uipmworld.org/news/uipm...-welfare-and-athlete-safety-modern-pentathlon
At least concerns have been noted, what action eventually will be taken, who knows!


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## ycbm (8 August 2021)

FinalCanter said:



			Yes, I think they need to lower the jumps, or put in a different type of test for them (equitation or dressage) for it, but you glossed over the main point of my message about everything needs to be better and up to par, including MP. You are looking to bait arguments, as you've been on many pages of this thread with the same points. We hear you, many of us do agree to an extent already.

I'm going to move on as I've already expressed my points to you. Let's agree to disagree. Cheers.
		
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I'm expressing a view I hold in response to others, including you, who are expressing theirs. I had stopped posting on this thread but I thought your points required a response. (ETA you introduced two new points,  that it was only some of the rounds that there was an issue with and some riders rode well,  and that it was non equestrians who were concerned.)   You then chose to further the debate with me,  so please don't accuse me of baiting, I am simply debating.

I'm not glossing over anything,  in terms of horse welfare there are problems with all levels of equestrianism and I don't claim to be totally blame free myself.  But it's my opinion that the equestrian element of MP is far worse than any of the other Olympic equestrian disciplines in terms of visible and foreseeable horse welfare problems during the competition. 
.


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## Abi90 (8 August 2021)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Have you guys read this?
https://www.uipmworld.org/news/uipm...-welfare-and-athlete-safety-modern-pentathlon
At least concerns have been noted, what action eventually will be taken, who knows!
		
Click to expand...

I read it and felt it was a very political and non committal statement. They obviously need to review things and need the time to do that but I don’t feel that statement holds them to anything other than acknowledging concerns. I certainly don’t get the warm and fuzzies from it


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## Tiddlypom (8 August 2021)

The statement is making many of the right noises, isn't it. But will it be followed up by tangible improvements wrt to the equestrian angle?

*UIPM OFFICIAL STATEMENT: HORSE WELFARE AND ATHLETE SAFETY IN MODERN PENTATHLON*

_The events of August 6, 2021 in the Tokyo Stadium have caused distress both inside and outside the global UIPM Sports community._

_Riding is an integral part of the Modern Pentathlon, as envisaged by Baron Pierre de Coubertin, who aimed to create the ultimate test of moral and physical qualities. The ability to control a horse in a competitive situation is part of the pentathlon toolkit – the Olympic champion must prove they can swim, fence, ride, shoot and run to a high level to earn the coveted gold medal._

_The unpredictability of athletes riding on unfamiliar drawn horses, with only 20 minutes to establish an understanding, is part of the dramatic spectacle that makes Modern Pentathlon unique and compelling._

_While the number of refusals and falls on August 6 was slightly above average, the Olympic Games is designed as the most challenging of all competitions. The experience of Annika Schleu (GER) and Gulnaz Gubaydullina (ROC) on Saint Boy was unusual in high-level Modern Pentathlon, especially for riders of their proven ability._

_That said, UIPM has a duty of care to all participants in the competitions it oversees; this includes the Olympic Games and it includes horses._

_Not only will UIPM conduct a full review of the Riding discipline of the Women’s Modern Pentathlon at the Tokyo 2020 Olympic Games, it will also reinforce the importance of horse welfare and athlete safety across the entire global competition structure. UIPM regrets the trauma suffered by Saint Boy in this high-profile incident and has penalised the coach who violated the UIPM Competition Rules by striking the horse from outside the ring._

_Although no athlete or horse was physically injured on August 6, the best possible safeguards must be in place to minimise risk in future._

_Changes in Riding were already in the pipeline due to the new Modern Pentathlon format coming into force in 2022 for the Paris 2024 Olympic cycle. Horse welfare and athlete safety will be at the centre of this process and the UIPM 2021 Congress in November will provide an opportunity for UIPM’s national member federations to participate in a collective effort to secure the future of Riding in Modern Pentathlon._


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## Rowreach (8 August 2021)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Have you guys read this?
https://www.uipmworld.org/news/uipm...-welfare-and-athlete-safety-modern-pentathlon
At least concerns have been noted, what action eventually will be taken, who knows!
		
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When I saw that this morning I thought:

1. You’ve had decades to sort this out and you haven’t, and the current review has nothing to do with the main issue of horse welfare so don’t pretend otherwise and 

2. If you are claiming that these athletes are at the top level of their sport, yet clearly so many are not at the standard required to jump a strange horse over a 1.20m course, then you have a funny idea of what top level means.


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## littleshetland (8 August 2021)

I heard a report on BBC radio 4 yesterday that the competitor was tearful and agitated before she even got on the horse.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (8 August 2021)

Rowreach said:



			When I saw that this morning I thought:

1. You’ve had decades to sort this out and you haven’t, and the current review has nothing to do with the main issue of horse welfare so don’t pretend otherwise and

2. If you are claiming that these athletes are at the top level of their sport, yet clearly so many are not at the standard required to jump a strange horse over a 1.20m course, then you have a funny idea of what top level means.
		
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I completely agree


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## Winters100 (8 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			tbf i didn't see temper, i saw complete anguish in that athlete's face, from her posture and body language she appeared to be crying in desperation not in anger, she patted the horse at the end. the coach, i rewatched it and to me it was the coach appeared to be feeling something different. I thought the athlete looked pretty broken, she came into the arena looking defeated and carried on like that, she didn't look like she was losing her temper to me, losing her grip mentally, yes.

for the avoidance of doubt, since it seems like anything less than furious condemnation is taken to be taken as enthusiastic MP flag waving support, no, i don't think it should continue in its present form and no i don't condone horse abuse and no i wouldn't let anyone use my horses for it
		
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This was also my interpretation.  I think she was terrified, desperate, and as an inexperienced rider had probably never had a horse react like this and had not a clue what to do.  I would put most of the blame for this on the officials who allowed it to go on.  One would assume that if a horse was lame during the warm up or shortly after entering the ring then an alternative would be found, and the competitor would be allowed to change horses, so why could the same not be done when the horse was suffering mentally?  Do they have any check during warm up to see if going into the arena is safe for the horse and rider? It would seem not.

I also feel sorry for her. As Millipops said, not condemning the rider does not mean that I support this. I do not believe that horses should be part of this event, and over my dead body would a horse in my care take part, but I cannot help but feel empathy for a young woman put in this situation, knowing that getting off the horse might prompt anger from her coaches and team-mates, and trying to deal with something that was beyond her capabilities.


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## paddy555 (8 August 2021)

Elf On A Shelf said:



			As has previously been shown by many equestrians at the Olympics this year including 2 on the British team.

These so called pentathletes need to take a leaf out of a regular equestrians book.
		
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you have highlighted the 2 groups of people. The equestrians who not only have to jump the course but who also (or at least their grooms) have to take the horse home, resolve any physical problems it has incurred and deal with the mental ones they have caused. Their responsibility. 

The other group are athletes. The horse is only the means to an end, a medal. I am sure many of them would rather not have the horses but some other test eg cycling. At the end of the day that girl walks away from the horse. Did she check it's legs, was she the one who cooled it out,  check it overnight. Nope, 30 mins with the horse and that is her done for the day as far as horsemanship skills go.


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## teapot (8 August 2021)

According to the rules there must be a vet in the warm up to check for injuries/lameness before/after each round


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## Winters100 (8 August 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			The statement is making many of the right noises, isn't it. But will it be followed up by tangible improvements wrt to the equestrian angle?

*UIPM OFFICIAL STATEMENT: HORSE WELFARE AND ATHLETE SAFETY IN MODERN PENTATHLON*


_The unpredictability of athletes riding on unfamiliar drawn horses, with only 20 minutes to establish an understanding, is part of the dramatic spectacle that makes Modern Pentathlon unique and compelling.
._

Click to expand...

And this is exactly the problem.  The organisers themselves admit that they like the fact that it is unpredictable and 'dramatic'.

Most horse owners do all they can to avoid unpredictable situations, it is why we introduce horses to new experiences on a step by step basis, and do not just throw a saddle on an unbroken horse and get on.  We also do our best to avoid dramas, which benefit neither the horse nor the rider.  I did not think that they could say anything that could make it worse in my eyes, but they have.


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## conniegirl (8 August 2021)

BronsonNutter said:



			The only thing I can realistically think of to do to improve riding in MP across the board would be to increase the amount of points on offer for it, or add in bonus points for style of riding, to make the riding phase more influential so that those not from the horsey backgrounds originally need to improve to be within a chance of being competitive.
		
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They could start by eliminating anyone who falls off and anyone who gets 3 refusals. Disallowing the use of spurs and enforcing much stronger whip rules.
Also for the “elite” level athletes a riding trial conducted by the international federation before they are allowed to step up to that level.
National federations seem to either not be conducting any form of check or are vastly overestimating their athletes ability so the oversight needs to be removed from them.

People will soon up thier game if told you can’t compete until you get better


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## LadyGascoyne (8 August 2021)

I think the issue is a complete lack of horsemanship in the majority of competitors. They might be able to ride but they clearly know nothing about how to work with a horse.

The concept of being able to get onto a strange horse and ride to safety is actually completely undermined by the approach demonstrated. 

I’d support the approach of getting horse and rider to solve a problem together, graded on the partnership - equitation would be good. 

I feel sorry for the German girl - she was clearly completely unequipped to deal with the situation. I dislike the sport for sticking totally unequipped people on live animals and aiming them at big fences. What a great plan that is!


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## ester (8 August 2021)

I was sad enough to rifle through the rules re. changing horse. 
They don't copy and paste very well though- page 66 for the vet stuff (which seems to concentrate only on lameness which I think is a flaw) and page 70 for other reasons. 
and bit on if the rider thinks the horse is not fit :
Before mounting, a pentathlete may ask for an examination of their horse if they think
it is not fit to start. After consultation with the Veterinarian, the UIPM TD/NTO may
decide to permit a change of the horse. 

https://www.uipmworld.org/sites/default/files/uipm_comp_rules_and_reg_2018_a5_v3.pdf


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## Tiddlypom (8 August 2021)

Once mounted the count down begins. It is only permitted to change a horse after this if it is deemed lame by the officials. Nothing about if the horse is performing very poorly in the warm up arena or if it is getting upset or agitated.

Confirming that the horse is merely a tool, another piece of equipment.


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## ester (8 August 2021)

They need a section for 'not mentally coping with the demands asked of it' or just a welfare clause with a vet to take that decision as well as ones on lameness.


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## catkin (8 August 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			Once mounted the count down begins. It is only permitted to change a horse after this if it is deemed lame by the officials. Nothing about if the horse is performing very poorly in the warm up arena or if it is getting upset or agitated.

Confirming that the horse is merely a tool, another piece of equipment.
		
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In which case then all the suggestions for a different riding test are merely more of the same - which makes a complete mockery of other equestrian sports which are all about a partnership winning a contest. 
All horse sports rely on a social contract with the rest of society about how the horses are regarded, i.e. as beloved partners. Looking at this through this prism if this section of MP is not redesigned into something with inanimate sports equipment then all equestrian will be swept away from the Olympics.


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## PapaverFollis (8 August 2021)

The German women should have retired gracefully.   Her coach should have pulled her out. The officials should have pulled the horse out and offered a replacement.   Lots of layers.  I think the athlete herself had got herself into such a state that she wasn't going to be able to pull herself out of there.  One of the other adults in the room should have been able to step up to the plate for the sake of the horse. 

A horse in emotional distress should be considered lame for the purposes of the rules.  The riding test should be about riding a willing and capable horse.  Not having 20 minutes to undo the damage a previous competitor has done to a horse's confidence. 

I only watched the mens competition and I didn't see anything too too bad, but I didn't watch it all so I don't know. Just one guy bouncing on the back of the saddle, who I would I have eliminated for incompetence if such a thing was possible.  And it should be.   Add a horse  welfare judge whose responsibility it is to eliminate the incompetent. Have them be strict with clear infractions to eliminate for. Have the horses as the first event.  If you're shite your whole competition lasts 5 minutes and you don't even go in the ring.  That would create some focus.


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## DressageCob (8 August 2021)

I don't like it and I don't think the current competition can be justified. We are so much more enlightened about animal rights and animal sentience these days. 

Either it needs bringing in line with the FEI, together with strict rules on the use of the whip, and the height being dropped, or it needs ditching. 

Maybe it's time for the Ultra Modern Pentathlon, with BMW stunts or skateboarding replacing the show jumping.


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## SOS (8 August 2021)

Im not defending the riding standard in anyway and agree the horsemanship should get better. However I’ve seen lots of posts saying they don’t care for the horses everyday, aren’t the ones doing the late night checks, washing legs down, etc. These would be carried out by grooms, much like with professional riders all over the world and even some amateur riders on full comp livery etc. So I can’t really get worked up about that.

The issue is not the horses care outside of the competition but the monitoring of their mental health, not just physical health, during it.

If it is meant to be based in on a soldier/army sports then this opens up most aspects of riding - dressage, working equitation etc.


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## teapot (8 August 2021)

PapaverFollis said:



			Have the horses as the first event.  If you're shite your whole competition lasts 5 minutes and you don't even go in the ring.  That would create some focus.
		
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It will be first in Paris, whole event is changing.


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## Fruitcake (8 August 2021)

The UIPM statement seemed a bit of a cop-out to me. I'll not hold my breath for much to come out of that review. 

I've thought a lot about this over the past few days as I actually found watching the incident with Saint Boy really upsetting. While I agree that similar treatment probably goes on at all levels, it doesn't make it any less shocking or distressing to see at Olympic level - and doesn't mean that, just because we can't save all horses from this abuse, we shouldn't attempt to make changes at the supposed top. 

I find it rather baffling that some people seem to feel that a pentathlete making mistakes in the riding phase is no different to one making mistakes in swimming or running: in those phases, mistakes only affect points and not another living being!

Joe Choong hasn't really helped the case either. On Radio 5, he said the incident with the German rider has been blown out of context and that there was no way what happened could physically hurt the horse. He also made some comments about the medal being his and not the horse's. Rather sad that he seems to see the horse as just a tool too.


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## McFluff (8 August 2021)

This is the bit that really worries me. 

_The unpredictability of athletes riding on unfamiliar drawn horses, with only 20 minutes to establish an understanding, is part of the dramatic spectacle that makes Modern Pentathlon unique and compelling._

I don’t think this attitude (or desired outcome) can ever sit well with the use of another living being. Horses are being deliberately set up to create ‘dramatic spectacle’ - that is mental abuse in my view.  There is enough drama in established equine sports without over-facing either horse or rider.  Didn’t they drop the horse swap thing in the show jumping World Cup - that didn’t always go well, and those riders were top of their Game?

if they must use a unknown horse/rider relationship then the test has to be easier IMO.


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## ester (8 August 2021)

I don't want a dramatic spectacle. I picked up on that too.


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## Mule (8 August 2021)

This thread has reminded me of catch riding in eventing. They don't do it anymore but it used to be done. Mark Todd won Badminton with a catch ride. I think he had a few days to ride the horse prior to it. I know he's Mark Todd, so if anyone is going to make it work, it will be him but he was hardly the only eventer that did it. So I suppose it just comes down to talent and horsemanship.


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## ester (8 August 2021)

They don't make the top 4 switch horses at weg anymore either and that was far more skilled riders.


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## Ambers Echo (8 August 2021)

I felt desperately sorry for the German athlete as well as for the horse. There is no way that horse was mentally fit after the car crash of his first round. He should have been withdrawn as he was not fit to continue. What happened to mental health IS health. I hope he re-sets quickly and recovers his confidence. 

In my view, the German athlete was not having a tantrum but a total emotional meltdown. She was distraught, inconsolable, utterly heart broken and no doubt traumatised. I hope she has good support around her and I wish she was not being scapegoated for long-standing, deep seated problems in how to make the riding element of MP fair to horses and to competitors.

The concept of riding unfamiliar horses is not outrageous. Every RS rider , everyone doing BHS stages, rides  horses they don’t know. These  athletes have  qualified to be at THE OLYMPICS! They should be able to be trusted not to screw up horses. Clearly some can’t, so the qualifying element needs to be looked at. 

As many have said a key change to improve standards surely would  be to introduce style marks so those horrific misses that the horse heroically clears are hammered anyway. I’d  also rather see the height lowered or some sort of seeding so that some riders have to compete over the fences at - say - a metre and some can do  110 and some 120. Like the difference in difficulty in diving or gymnastics. As MP says, it’s not that bad scores means horse welfare does not matter, but that bad scores means people would improve their horsemanship  rather than point and pray. 

I hope that the high profile of Schleu’s meltdown does now mean that improvements are made.


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## PapaverFollis (8 August 2021)

Yes. I spent my entire Pony Club experience finding out which horse I was on when I arrived at the yard on the day of the rally.  The only time I got a consistent ride was camp, where I had the same horse for a week.  Otherwise it was whoever I was assigned, sometimes consistent,  sometimes not, like in my riding lessons.  For competitions I knew who I was getting a week or so before but just had to get on and do it in the day. 

Riding unfamiliar horses and being ridden by unfamiliar riders was just a standard experience for me and those horses.  I don't think that is where the issues lie here. I think it is in not taking horse welfare (with respect to being ridden by sacks of potatoes with spurs on) seriously enough and not enforcing strict competence and welfare standards.

The actual substance of the event seems fine to me.  But the attitude that it is approached with by athletes and officials needs sharpening up.


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## Mule (9 August 2021)

PapaverFollis said:



			Yes. I spent my entire Pony Club experience finding out which horse I was on when I arrived at the yard on the day of the rally.  The only time I got a consistent ride was camp, where I had the same horse for a week.  Otherwise it was whoever I was assigned, sometimes consistent,  sometimes not, like in my riding lessons.  For competitions I knew who I was getting a week or so before but just had to get on and do it in the day.

Riding unfamiliar horses and being ridden by unfamiliar riders was just a standard experience for me and those horses.  I don't think that is where the issues lie here. I think it is in not taking horse welfare (with respect to being ridden by sacks of potatoes with spurs on) seriously enough and not enforcing strict competence and welfare standards.

The actual substance of the event seems fine to me.  But the attitude that it is approached with by athletes and officials needs sharpening up.
		
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I agree


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## SEL (9 August 2021)

Also agree. I rarely jump more than a cross pole these days but I would still feel confident getting on one of those horses - especially because it has already gone round the course - & jumping it. I came through RS, university competitions, random overseas trips etc. I'm not Olympic standard in anything but I'm more competent than the vast majority of those MP riders and that shouldn't be the case.

The "dramatic spectacle" had me switch over.


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## Amymay (9 August 2021)

UIPM have posted an update on Saint Boy from his stables, saying he’s tired but fine.  I’m not sure the pictures posted are actually of Saint Boy though.


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## shortstuff99 (9 August 2021)

__ https://www.facebook.com/125751084126271/posts/4537888026245866


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## ycbm (9 August 2021)

I don't find that picture and the way he is standing reassuring, that looks like a sore horse to me.
.


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## Red-1 (9 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			I don't find that picture and the way he is standing reassuring, that looks like a sore horse to me.
.
		
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I agree!

I think the spectacle was awful, only watched the first half as it wasn't something I would want to see.

However...

I don't think the height is the issue. If they make the jumps lower, then I think the athletes would simply train in the equestrian area less. If they are not real equestrians, they will do what they feel they have to, IMO, and no more. Maybe because they see the jumping as being a bit of a lottery anyway? If you are not interested in equestrianism, the training is arduous and carries a significant risk of injury. At present there obviously isn't enough incentive to train more.

The idea that getting on a strange horse is impossible is also wrong, IMO. I am a rubbish jumper, but did my BHS stage 4, way back in 1995. I seem to recollect that, at the time, it was 1.10 jumping, on a horse I hadn't met. Plus, the jumps could be 5cm bigger. I had jumped BS up to Newcomers, but recognised that I wasn't good enough to do the test in the exam. I took responsibility and went to a professional show jumper once a week, and was regularly jumping courses at that height, on different horses, before presenting myself for the exam. Young horses, dealer horses, difficult horses. I had not one iota of natural talent, but had the pride to go do the hard work.

I did the jumping at Bishop Burton, where the courses were reputed to be full height. The collecting ring was called, as in the riding master (Mike Gee) said what to do and when. You had to pass his steely gaze before jumping. He controlled the fence. He wasn't one of the examiners, he was there purely for the welfare and safety of his horses.

We all warmed up, all did a X pole. I stuffed up the first jump. He stared. I did better. One lady didn't improve. I seem to think she was tried on another horse, she did better. However, she didn't do as well on course, so she was eliminated from the jumping portion of the exam after just a couple of fences. No one waited for a fall or for the horse to suffer a protracted list of errors. She was called off, plain and simple.

Surely the FEI could provide a ground jury of 3, to warm up in batches? 5 people assessed on the horses, assessed over a X, assessed over an upright and oxer? If you are struggling, try another horse, if still struggling, you are out? Then on course in the actual arena, a ground jury of 3, to ring the bell if it all goes wrong? Elimination from that portion of the test? They wouldn't be judging, as the fences either fall or they don't, they would be there simply for the welfare and safety of the horses and riders.

I think then the athletes would make the effort to do the work in the equine field then, rather than clinging on and trusting to luck. It would be a howler to be kicked out before even competing. Perhaps people would train harder. If not, at least the horses would be better off.

I just think, if a self confessed crap jumper can manage to pass a 1.10 jumping course (although when I did the re-take at Moreton Morrell due to me passing the jumping but, in the flat, not riding the Intermediaire dressage horse with enough grace it was tiny, more like a B Nov) on a strange horse, in good style, it is not out of the way for a professional athlete, at the OLYMPICS no less, to manage 1.20 on a schoolmaster.

But, it has not proved so.

Putting the fences down will not cure it. I would have the ground jury in the collecting ring, who are not afraid to pass judgement. Then another ground jury in the ring, again not afraid to pass judgement.

I also like AE's idea to have a system where athletes could jump over smaller fences but carry a penalty, but that would create issues with sourcing horses as clinging on round a 1m course would be best horsed by a different animal than a proficient jumper jumping 1.20. It would have to be declared months in advance.

Jumping and style would also be OK too.

I don't think Saint Boy should have been re-presented for a second rider.


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## Polos Mum (9 August 2021)

shortstuff99 said:






__ https://www.facebook.com/125751084126271/posts/4537888026245866



Click to expand...

What's going on with his back feet? Hope it's a very odd camera angle  -agreed if that is the best photo they could take to reassure the horse community globally then poor poor horse


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## ester (9 August 2021)

I think the back feet have led to the is it really him query.

Re. the height, I think the issue is that outside of the olympics they don't jump that high normally so they aren't used to doing it in competition.

ETA this is their rule on height 
The height of the course obstacles must be made in accordance with the standard of the horses. 

and 
the course builder must plan and prepare the course adjusting the size of the obstacles to the quality of the horses and in such a way that capable pentathletes will benefit from their skill.


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## OldNag (9 August 2021)

Fruitcake said:



			The UIPM statement seemed a bit of a cop-out to me. I'll not hold my breath for much to come out of that review. 

I've thought a lot about this over the past few days as I actually found watching the incident with Saint Boy really upsetting. While I agree that similar treatment probably goes on at all levels, it doesn't make it any less shocking or distressing to see at Olympic level - and doesn't mean that, just because we can't save all horses from this abuse, we shouldn't attempt to make changes at the supposed top. 

I find it rather baffling that some people seem to feel that a pentathlete making mistakes in the riding phase is no different to one making mistakes in swimming or running: in those phases, mistakes only affect points and not another living being!

Joe Choong hasn't really helped the case either. On Radio 5, he said the incident with the German rider has been blown out of context and that there was no way what happened could physically hurt the horse. He also made some comments about the medal being his and not the horse's. Rather sad that he seems to see the horse as just a tool too.
		
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I didn't hear the interview, but David Marlin has posted a transcript  of it on his fb page . I was really disheartened to read it


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## Abi90 (9 August 2021)

ester said:



			I think the back feet have led to the is it really him query.

Re. the height, I think the issue is that outside of the olympics they don't jump that high normally so they aren't used to doing it in competition.

ETA this is their rule on height
The height of the course obstacles must be made in accordance with the standard of the horses.

and
the course builder must plan and prepare the course adjusting the size of the obstacles to the quality of the horses and in such a way that capable pentathletes will benefit from their skill.
		
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Interesting that the courses are built for the capability of the horses and not the riders


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## Abi90 (9 August 2021)

OldNag said:



			I didn't hear the interview, but David Marlin has posted a transcript  of it on his fb page . I was really disheartened to read it
		
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it was incredibly disappointing. Clearly no empathy with the horse and “it’s just a random horse and it’s our medal” really says something


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## ecb89 (9 August 2021)

I don’t think that’s the same horse. Back feet look different


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## Amymay (9 August 2021)

Deleted


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## HashRouge (9 August 2021)

Amymay said:



			UIPM have posted an update on Saint Boy from his stables, saying he’s tired but fine.  I’m not sure the pictures posted are actually of Saint Boy though.
		
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It's hard to say, isn't it? I'm not completely convinced it is the same horse, but it can be very hard to tell with a solid bay. But the horse in the pictures does look to have a slightly lighter muzzle and lighter hair round his stifle, which I couldn't see when I went back and looked at the video. But equally, he's so sweaty it's hards to say for sure!

Having watched the video again, what I really don't understand is how/ why there wasn't someone in the warm up who said, you know what, let's get this girl off this horse. Schleu came into the ring in an absolute state and so did Saint Boy. They obviously been having major trouble when warming up and that really should have been picked up on.


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## southerncomfort (9 August 2021)

Ambers Echo said:



			I felt desperately sorry for the German athlete as well as for the horse. There is no way that horse was mentally fit after the car crash of his first round. He should have been withdrawn as he was not fit to continue. What happened to mental health IS health. I hope he re-sets quickly and recovers his confidence.

In my view, the German athlete was not having a tantrum but a total emotional meltdown. She was distraught, inconsolable, utterly heart broken and no doubt traumatised. I hope she has good support around her and I wish she was not being scapegoated for long-standing, deep seated problems in how to make the riding element of MP fair to horses and to competitors.

The concept of riding unfamiliar horses is not outrageous. Every RS rider , everyone doing BHS stages, rides  horses they don’t know. These  athletes have  qualified to be at THE OLYMPICS! They should be able to be trusted not to screw up horses. Clearly some can’t, so the qualifying element needs to be looked at.

As many have said a key change to improve standards surely would  be to introduce style marks so those horrific misses that the horse heroically clears are hammered anyway. I’d  also rather see the height lowered or some sort of seeding so that some riders have to compete over the fences at - say - a metre and some can do  110 and some 120. Like the difference in difficulty in diving or gymnastics. As MP says, it’s not that bad scores means horse welfare does not matter, but that bad scores means people would improve their horsemanship  rather than point and pray.

I hope that the high profile of Schleu’s meltdown does now mean that improvements are made.
		
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I do actually have a small amount of sympathy for the rider and I wondered if the overbearing coach was as much to blame for her emotional state.

That said, it was still very upsetting to see the horse mistreated like that.  The general attitude towards horses within MP is worrying and discomforting.

I feel that all participants should pass a basic riding/horsemanship test before being allowed to take part.

I also think the time allowed to get to know your mount needs to be increased.


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## southerncomfort (9 August 2021)

Abi90 said:



			it was incredibly disappointing. Clearly no empathy with the horse and “it’s just a random horse and it’s our medal” really says something
		
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Perhaps when they start seeing the horse as a fellow athlete rather than a means to an end things might improve.


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## Bernster (9 August 2021)

Given how horrific and intense social media can be, I really think people (generally, not aimed at hho) should be more measured in terms of the comments made about the rider. I agree with MP.  I’m not condoning it, I’m not saying what she did was ok, and there def need to be changes, but I have an awful feeling that she will be on the receiving end of some pretty vile and sustained online abuse.


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## ester (9 August 2021)

Hopefully link  works this was quoted as world champs- can't get it to come up with the original post so unconfirmed atm!  Is it just a really poor culture they have re the horses? 


	
	





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=6200083063336911


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## Dave's Mam (9 August 2021)

Holysh1t.


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## Meowy Catkin (9 August 2021)

Awful. 

Maybe this needs to be operated under FEI rules as others have stated?

A horse fall or rider fall should mean elimination from the whole competition, not just a few penalty points.


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## Winters100 (9 August 2021)

I agree with those who say that jumping this height on a strange horse should not be a problem, but the problem is that these athletes are not riders. Also being allocated an unknown horse or pony for a lesson or low level competition is very different to the same happening in the olympics. I am so shocked by the number of videos on you tube which refer to the horse misbehaving - the poor horse was just reacting to the situation that he found himself in. I also found this video from the Beijing Olympics - again clearly a competitor who gives the horse no chance






Really this is so sad, I just cannot think how anyone would supply horses for this event.


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## milliepops (9 August 2021)

just watching that one from Beijing, the rules must have been reviewed at some point after that because now 4x refusals results in elimination.


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## Annagain (9 August 2021)

I just watched the first few seconds of that but can't watch any more. Please tell me the horse got up?


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## milliepops (9 August 2021)

There are also penalties for "resistance" though presumably they weren't applied to the german rider initially because her round hadn't started at the point the coach whacked it :/


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## marmalade76 (9 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			just watching that one from Beijing, the rules must have been reviewed at some point after that because now 4x refusals results in elimination.
		
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Yes, and the rule about the height of the course suiting the available horses, the Beijing horses (the ones that I saw anyway) looked fairly small.


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## ester (9 August 2021)

It  got up, she got back on asap and carried on jumping. No one thought they should check the horse. 

For anyone interested it is now on the BSJA facebook page quoted as 2021 world cup.


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## ester (9 August 2021)

The height rule kind of goes back to how many 1.20 somewhat forgiving types do all the countries have available to them. Because if they don't then they aren't available for competition either. Do they generally get 'better' horses at olympics because people are happier to lease them for that than other competitions. I'd be curious what the 2012 height was.


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## milliepops (9 August 2021)

yeah stuff like horse and rider falls in particular is why i think it ought to be run under FEI rules as a minimum even if the FEI don't take it on as a discipline. there are penalties for a horse fall, but why on earth you're allowed - actually expected, to get back up after a horse has fallen I can't comprehend.


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## Annagain (9 August 2021)

ester said:



			It  got up, she got back on asap and carried on jumping. No one thought they should check the horse.

For anyone interested it is now on the BSJA facebook page quoted as 2021 world cup.
		
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I'll get banned from here if I type what I'm thinking.


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## Meowy Catkin (9 August 2021)

OK I'm back to the option of having horses completely removed from the Modern Pentathlon. The whole culture towards the horses that seems to exist and also be accepted as normal in the event is not good enough by any stretch of the imagination.


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## McFluff (9 August 2021)

ester said:



			It  got up, she got back on asap and carried on jumping. No one thought they should check the horse.

For anyone interested it is now on the BSJA facebook page quoted as 2021 world cup.
		
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It was truly shocking. Horse was down for a good few seconds, then got up.  They didn't even walk it to check it was sound, just chucked 'rider' back up and off they went.  NOT good.

Perhaps Red-1 solutions are the most workable - a strong ground jury who can just stop things if horse welfare is compromised.  But they would need to be strong and willing to do that.


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## Lurfy (9 August 2021)

Very hard viewing these videos. If the horses can't be better protected from this mistreatment then they need to be removed from the pentathlon.


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## Annagain (9 August 2021)

I'm starting to wonder if there's some sort of technological answer to this. A virtual reality type experience. A mechanical horse that's designed to respond to hand / leg/ seat / balance aids - too fast you have a pole down, too backwards you get a refusal, too rough you get bucked off etc? Level playing field for the competitors, no horses abused. I suppose it becomes a technological challenge rather than a riding one then though. There's not the element of controlling their nerves and building a rapport with the horse. 

I must admit, as someone who is very aware of her own failings and building up the jumping with her own horse very slowly (I was ecstatic yesterday at doing a 2' course all in canter!) I can't believe some of these pentathletes have the arrogance and balls to even consider taking it on. Is getting to an Olympics so important to people that they think "yes I'll go and do that" when they know deep down they can't? And knowing they can't, why don't they try to improve? 

I think I'm about to answer my own question here as I've just remembered something. A few years ago, I was in the jacuzzi at the spa in a hotel we were staying at. There were a group of serious swimmers there and a couple of them finished their swims and got into the jacuzzi too. They were chatting and one mentioned that he had just missed out on the training squad for the Olympics (I think this was pre London, maybe even pre Beijing) but was going to a selection day for other sports. He knew he wouldn't make the rowing as he'd been measured and despite being really tall, his 'wingspan' for want of a better word was too small so he was looking at some of the throwing events or maybe water polo if the lottery was going to fund it, failing that, he was considering some Winter Olympic sports like bob sleigh. For him, he wasn't dedicated to his chosen sport, he wanted to get to the Olympics. I'm sure there are a lot of pentathletes who weren't good enough at the individual elements so switched rather than it being their choice from the word go.


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## milliepops (9 August 2021)

ester said:



			The height rule kind of goes back to how many 1.20 somewhat forgiving types do all the countries have available to them. Because if they don't then they aren't available for competition either. Do they generally get 'better' horses at olympics because people are happier to lease them for that than other competitions. I'd be curious what the 2012 height was.
		
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I rewatched the start of the 2012 coverage and they said the fences were between 1.10 and 1.25m.

different rules again then as they started with 1000 points and the faults for refusals/poles down were higher.


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## Annagain (9 August 2021)

I also think it would help to highlight the skill of the rider to the casual viewer if they showed some footage of the horses at the inspection with their regular riders. Showing that the same horses are more than capable / willing at that height would stop the pentathletes being able to blame the horse for their failings.


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## Rowreach (9 August 2021)

Meowy Catkin said:



			OK I'm back to the option of having horses completely removed from the Modern Pentathlon. The whole culture towards the horses that seems to exist and also be accepted as normal in the event is not good enough by any stretch of the imagination.
		
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Honestly, that's where I'm at now.  This so called "sport" should not be allowed to continue.  I wouldn't trust them to treat the horses right even if they were only doing lead rein jumping over 30cm.


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## Rowreach (9 August 2021)

ester said:



			The height rule kind of goes back to how many 1.20 somewhat forgiving types do all the countries have available to them. Because if they don't then they aren't available for competition either. Do they generally get 'better' horses at olympics because people are happier to lease them for that than other competitions. I'd be curious what the 2012 height was.
		
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It also begs the question as to whether these "top" athletes have actually qualified (or indeed ever competed) at the height they are expected to jump at the Olympics.


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## Amymay (9 August 2021)

Dave's Mam said:



			Holysh1t.
		
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Indeed! 😱


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## Rowreach (9 August 2021)

And while I'm at it, I am still fuming that Natalya Coyle was picked to be flag bearer at the closing ceremony when her total lack of sportsmanship was one of the last memories I have of Tokyo.


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## oldie48 (9 August 2021)

I think the attitude comes from the time when the sport was invented (1912) and reflects the way horses were viewed in the military. Sorry, it is totally unacceptable and I fully support having the horses taken out of the event, perhaps replace them with an obstacle course in full pack.


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## Bernster (9 August 2021)

Ah yes, I really didn’t like how she left the horse after her round.


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## Rowreach (9 August 2021)

Bernster said:



			Ah yes, I really didn’t like how she left the horse after her round.
		
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And then blamed the horse for not medalling ...


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## sportsmansB (9 August 2021)

I have been mulling this over all weekend since I unfortunately watched a bit of it on Friday 

So are these athletes 'professional' pentathletes? 
If so, they have the equivalent of a day a week, or about 1.5hrs / day to be riding. Several of them definitely did not look like they had very many hours in the saddle under their belts. 
Are they not treating it as important as the other elements? Or don't they have access to a suitable horse? (if not, I'd suggest they PICK ANOTHER SPORT WITHOUT A HORSE IN IT!) 
Getting on a strange horse and jumping a course of 1.20 isn't easy. But lets face it, they knew that was what they were going to have to do. So why did so many of the women in particular look like this was a complete surprise to them and they were so very out of their depth? 
I'd suggest either a riding test for the athletes (not judged for points, just for competency) before the actual competition starts with those not capable not allowed to go and a hefty penalty score added, or a smaller course with marks for style (which would have sorted the men out a bit more too)- or a mix of both. 
Also internationally accepted rules re falls and refusals incorporated, I can't believe they can get back on after a fall. 

My horse is an ex 3 star eventer who would have the capabiity to jump a 1.20 course and is pretty rideable, keeps a rhythm, doesn't really stop, doesn't really pull. If someone got on like most of the men did and just sent him forwards he'd prob have 3 down through going long and jumping flat, but no disasters. If he got socked in the gob over the first two fences and the rider had no leg on, he'd not jump any more, he's not a complete dickhead.


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## duckling (9 August 2021)

ester said:



			Hopefully link  works this was quoted as world champs- can't get it to come up with the original post so unconfirmed atm!  Is it just a really poor culture they have re the horses? 


	
	





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=6200083063336911



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I saw this earlier and honestly thought the rider was running over to take the horses saddle off, not get back on… it’s really upsetting to watch 

I’m another that did BUCS at uni, and don’t necessarily think the idea of riding an unknown horse around a course of jumps is a bad one - but not at that height, and there needs to be a minimum level of competence that many of those riders just didn’t have.

It’s been years since I was at uni, but the league rounds were 80-85cm and judged on style, going up to 1m20 in the final round at the national finals where 2 riders both competed 2 horses round that course. They also switched to the horse draw in my final year where riders drew horses out a hat rather than choosing which of the team rode each horse. 

I also organised 2 of the regional finals for BUCS, and had teams put a complaint in one year because they thought a rider was overusing the whip in the warm up. They had footage (in the days of digital cameras) which was sent to BUCS and I believe the rider was disqualified.


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## Tiddlypom (9 August 2021)

Also tack choices.

Why on earth was it acceptable to present a horse for the MP jumping in a gag without even a second rein? It is not unforeseeable that an unbalanced rider on an unfamiliar horse will get left behind and sock the horse in the mouth, and such a severe bit will hurt it all the more.

The horse was completely b00gered by the first rider. No one with an ounce of equine knowledge would have deemed it ok to leg another strange rider up and ask him to jump again a short time later.




Also the use of spurs and whips by unskilled riders.

The use of horses in MP has had its day, they have no idea.


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## SibeliusMB (9 August 2021)

Bicycles.  NOW.


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## bonny (9 August 2021)

sportsmansB said:



			I have been mulling this over all weekend since I unfortunately watched a bit of it on Friday 

So are these athletes 'professional' pentathletes? 
If so, they have the equivalent of a day a week, or about 1.5hrs / day to be riding. Several of them definitely did not look like they had very many hours in the saddle under their belts. 
Are they not treating it as important as the other elements? Or don't they have access to a suitable horse? (if not, I'd suggest they PICK ANOTHER SPORT WITHOUT A HORSE IN IT!) 
Getting on a strange horse and jumping a course of 1.20 isn't easy. But lets face it, they knew that was what they were going to have to do. So why did so many of the women in particular look like this was a complete surprise to them and they were so very out of their depth? 
I'd suggest either a riding test for the athletes (not judged for points, just for competency) before the actual competition starts with those not capable not allowed to go and a hefty penalty score added, or a smaller course with marks for style (which would have sorted the men out a bit more too)- or a mix of both. 
Also internationally accepted rules re falls and refusals incorporated, I can't believe they can get back on after a fall. 

My horse is an ex 3 star eventer who would have the capabiity to jump a 1.20 course and is pretty rideable, keeps a rhythm, doesn't really stop, doesn't really pull. If someone got on like most of the men did and just sent him forwards he'd prob have 3 down through going long and jumping flat, but no disasters. If he got socked in the gob over the first two fences and the rider had no leg on, he'd not jump any more, he's not a complete dickhead.
		
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According to the bbc who have a table of funding for different events, we spent 5,500,000 million on the pentathlon so they are very definitely professionals. I don’t know how the funding works for other countries but I’m sure they all do a lot of training in all the disciplines. They are at the olympics not pony club.


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## YorkshireLady (9 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			we can pull up ugly photos of literally everything you can do with a horse. if people are wanting to ban the riding in the MP in order to stop the general public calling for the end of all horse sport i think that's a pretty short sighted idea tbh because everything has indefensible moments.
we need to strive to make it all better (or quit riding and encourage others to do the same...)
		
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I do think this is where a long sighted view is needed. MP for sure needs a shake up. However the social contract related to horse sport is also getting more and more fragile. Though there are a few appalling articles badly researched by people wanting horse sports removed...there are also points made in them....for instance around the fact that circuses were once acceptable...that we shouldn't ignore. 

Horse sport will prob go....and also horse riding. The latter I hope not in my lifetime


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## YorkshireLady (9 August 2021)

bonny said:



			According to the bbc who have a table of funding for different events, we spent 5,500,000 million on the pentathlon so they are very definitely professionals. I don’t know how the funding works for other countries but I’m sure they all do a lot of training in all the disciplines. They are at the olympics not pony club.
		
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I think the standard UK expects for the riders is much higher though than in some of the other countries. I also think they train much more for it as well


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## Red-1 (9 August 2021)

ester said:



			Hopefully link  works this was quoted as world champs- can't get it to come up with the original post so unconfirmed atm!  Is it just a really poor culture they have re the horses? 


	
	





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=6200083063336911



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Disgraceful.


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## abbijay (9 August 2021)

I'll be honest, I haven't read every reply to this thread but I have been mulling something so apologies if it has been mentioned in the intervening 15 pages I've skipped...
The eventers only showjump circa 1.20/1.25 course on a horse they know well (yes I know they have already done 2 phases). I'd be very interested to see one or 2 of them, as full time equestrians, come in on a borrowed horse and see how they fare. I am sure many of them would do fab but I think it would show that this is a mountainous ask for non-equestrian competitors and unfortunately it is simply luck of the draw if they get an easy horse or an absolute tw... idiot. 
In Sydney 2000 the para-riders were competing on borrowed horses - now it has been changed and no one could imagine them being asked to draw horses out of a hat. 
Perhaps in future each national federation could be rightly expected to provide an equine for the use of their team members - i appreciate not all competitors can be expected to provide their own horse but a team horse wouldn't be hard to source and ensure it worked for their team.


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## Fred66 (9 August 2021)

I am not defending the riding or the horsemanship of some of the MP competitors and certainly other methods of assessing horsemanship should be investigated. However those that say this is unfair on the rider then to me then that’s just the way it is, an element of luck of the draw, combined with their own skill and also that of the person before them (if they are second to ride), they choose this event if they don’t put the effort into learning to ride then they don’t deserve to be there, never mind winning a medal. The ground jury should be able to intervene if the riding is not conducive to horse welfare.
Regarding the animal cruelty element, then whilst ongoing treatment of the horse in this way would warrant intervention personally I think it unlikely that these horses will have suffered any long term damage, and I would pose the question as to if you feel it does then what is your attitude to riding horses at all ? If horse riding is to continue then novices will continue to learn, if novices continue to learn then horses will continue to have people land heavily, balancing on reins, yanking them in the mouth and generally being less than harmonious. There are also amateurs out there who are far too fond of the whip, of overbitting and using spurs, spare a thought for those horses that do have this happening regularly. Also this will fairly inevitably result in some horses having to put up with this on a more regular basis.
Saint Boy’s character is obviously not to suffer fools gladly and reacted accordingly, a harsh contact, no softening and insufficient leg certainly led to his use of reverse as an extremely effective evasion. He did eventually go forward and gave her a chance, but she made a mess of it again and he threw in the towel. I would imagine his reaction to his owner was something along the lines of “please don’t let those numpties try that again” and hopefully said owner won’t.


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## The Irish Draft 2022 (9 August 2021)

I think a lot these horses shouldn’t have been in the competition the horse the German riding was lame with a very big problem with it tendons and has to be retired. So the whole competition was a disaster.


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## tristar (9 August 2021)

YorkshireLady said:



			I do think this is where a long sighted view is needed. MP for sure needs a shake up. However the social contract related to horse sport is also getting more and more fragile. Though there are a few appalling articles badly researched by people wanting horse sports removed...there are also points made in them....for instance around the fact that circuses were once acceptable...that we shouldn't ignore. 

Horse sport will prob go....and also horse riding. The latter I hope not in my lifetime
		
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no never, sport in its bad forms yes, abuse hopefully, a return to traditional long format methods of training horses over years and no  immature horses thrust like sad projectiles  onto social media, no racehorses that look like blxxdy foals being ridden, just the sudden realization that we knew all along what was  wrong, and with advances in  vet science the knowledge of centuries and being forced to pull our socks take equestrianism  to a new level of respect and appreciation of the part horses play in our lives


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## Equi (9 August 2021)

YorkshireLady said:



			I think the standard UK expects for the riders is much higher though than in some of the other countries. I also think they train much more for it as well
		
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That logic can’t work for Germany though, arguably some of the best riders in the world.


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## Mrs. Jingle (9 August 2021)

shortstuff99 said:






__ https://www.facebook.com/125751084126271/posts/4537888026245866



Click to expand...


If and it is a big IF, that is the same horse,  the body language he is displaying in this pic would have me monitoring and checking my own horse's mental and physical wellbeing very carefully indeed. Is that truly the best pic they could come up with to reassure the world that the horse is mentally and physically OK after his traumatic experience with two shite riders and two shite trainers and one very, very shite owner?

Would you arrange to go and see this horse if it was being offered for sale based on those two pics? I know I wouldn't, I would be scrolling past pretty damn quick !


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## YorkshireLady (9 August 2021)

tristar said:



			no never, sport in its bad forms yes, abuse hopefully, a return to traditional long format methods of training horses over years and no  immature horses thrust like sad projectiles  onto social media, no racehorses that look like blxxdy foals being ridden, just the sudden realization that we knew all along what was  wrong, and with advances in  vet science the knowledge of centuries and being forced to pull our socks take equestrianism  to a new level of respect and appreciation of the part horses play in our lives
		
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Of course we all want this abuse free sport etc

However there is already a growing movement against eventing.....I can see how it could become socially unacceptable.  I am not saying I want that to be the case.


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## YorkshireLady (9 August 2021)

Equi said:



			That logic can’t work for Germany though, arguably some of the best riders in the world.
		
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She has obviously ridden....and performed as well in pentathlon over a long period.,...she was a junior as well


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## Tiddlypom (9 August 2021)

OldNag said:



			I didn't hear the interview, but David Marlin has posted a transcript  of it on his fb page . I was really disheartened to read it
		
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Here we have the Team GB Olympic Gold Medallist in Men's Modern Pentathlon .

Would you let this man anywhere near your horse? What an effing ignorant oik.


_5 Live Olympic Breakfast - 08/08/2021 - BBC Sounds

Transcript starts approx. 1h 30min into the programme recording. Produced as faithfully as possible.

CW: I need to bring this up with you as well though, because I guess the sad thing, there it is in the limelight with Team GB great success, two Golds. but the sad thing for the event is this incident in the women’s event wasn’t it, which which saw the...

JC: yeh

CW: …German coach punch the horse, strike the horse with her fist then encouraging her rider to do the same and I know that was being shared a lot on social media. It’s a pretty shocking story to follow wasn’t it? What is your response to that? And the fact that that’s partly what’s got people talking about the event as well?

JC: ………….Obviously it’s never nice to have the negative publicity something like that has made happen, erm……. *I think it’s been blown a lot out of context. I think if you actually watch the footage there is no way that what happened is physically hurting the horse. *Obviously part of the event is that two people ride each horse and when the Russian girl struggled on that horse it obviously upset the horse and it wasn’t happy going in to be asked to do the course again. But we are given a random horse. We have 20 minutes to sort of get a feel for how it wants to be ridden. And at the end of the day its not the same as the showjumping where the medal will go to a horse and a rider. It’s our medal because we don’t own the horse it’s a random one. And Annika, the German girl, is probably one of the most popular girls in the sport and I think some of the things like death threats and the abuse she’s been getting is absolutely disgusting. She’s gone out she’s the quickest girl in the laser run she knows she just has to get around the riding and she’s guaranteed a Gold medal, erm, and that’s all of our dreams since we were kids, so imagine seeing that slowly slip away because you have someone else who has upset your horse and you know you don’t have the toolset to fix it. It’s.. its… I can’t imagine how… how she’ll get over it. And maybe at that moment maybe maybe like she didn’t handle it perfectly but at the same time no physical harm was done to the horse..

CW: no but as I

JC: and I think a lot of its just over the top

CW: Well I hear what you’re saying but I suppose when you’ve got the coach urging the rider to really hit the horse, really hit was the words they use, I mean that’s hard to defend isn’t it?

JC: yeh. ………………………….. erm. …………. Yeh. I mean when we are riding erm…you have to school the horse and er…I…er.. and I’ve not heard the audio to that part,* I saw I saw people talking about striking it with a fist and lets be honest if you think thats hurting a one tonne animal you’re kidding yourself. *Er um I can’t say anything about what she said…*I do think things have been blown out of proportion.*_


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## bonny (9 August 2021)

Mrs Jingle said:



			If and it is a big IF, that is the same horse,  the body language he is displaying in this pic would have me monitoring and checking my own horse's mental and physical wellbeing very carefully indeed. Is that truly the best pic they could come up with to reassure the world that the horse is mentally and physically OK after his traumatic experience with two shite riders and two shite trainers and one very, very shite owner?

Would you arrange to go and see this horse if it was being offered for sale based on those two pics? I know I wouldn't, I would be scrolling past pretty damn quick !

Click to expand...

I read somewhere that he’s 22, if that’s true he looks ok to me


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## Amymay (9 August 2021)

bonny said:



			I read somewhere that he’s 22, if that’s true he looks ok to me
		
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Yes, that has started to appear on fb.


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## SibeliusMB (9 August 2021)

Was it in the welfare thread that folks brought up the "yeah but what about this?" mentality in these issues and how unproductive that is for solving problems?  Because somehow defending or distracting from the blatant disregard for equine welfare in MP with riding school mistakes is exactly that.  Any riding instructor/school worth their salt isn't allowing beginner riders to go around balancing on their horse's face or slamming them in the back.  Does it happen?  Yes.  Should it?  No.  New riders should be put in lunge lessons for proper balance, not rushed, and there are other aids (ie. neck straps) to reduce the likelihood of that happening. Proper instructors and horsemen should know to implement these things to reduce the horse's exposure to these problems.

I have absolutely no sympathy for amateur riders who too fond of the whip/spur or refuse to get instruction to improve their garbage riding.  They are just as guilty as these MPers.  The only difference is the MPers are on a national or international stage while they do it, and bring even more disgrace and public outrage than a local riding club show.  Both are completely unacceptable. 

Social media, the public's increasing distance from rural lifestyles and ignorance of horse husbandry, and the animal rights groups are all having an effect on how socially unacceptable horse sports are becoming.  Everyone should be concerned and seek to do better.


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## Amymay (9 August 2021)

Interesting if true.


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## PapaverFollis (9 August 2021)

Unfortunately this modern pentathlon debacle could be the flocculation point around which an anti-horse sports purity spiral manifests.

I've just written this sentence and realised it makes no sense but I feel the fact I remembered the word flocculation means I still have to say it.


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## YorkshireLady (9 August 2021)

horse is not 22...there is some reporting he was born in 1989 but Olympic record says 2006


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## Mrs. Jingle (9 August 2021)

bonny said:



			I read somewhere that he’s 22, if that’s true he looks ok to me
		
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So is my retired mare and I can assure you she looks considerably physically and mentally well and happier than the poor horse in that picture!  The only time I have seen her body language and demeanour looking like this is when she was still very poorly physically and mentally when she was recovering from Lyme's disease. Do you really think if this is the best pic they could come up with,  then the horse in question must be OK? Surely to God they would have taken a fair few and posted the best? If this is the best then that tells me all I need to know anyway. 🤷‍♀️


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## Amymay (9 August 2021)

YorkshireLady said:



			horse is not 22...there is some reporting he was born in 1989 but Olympic record says 2006
		
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Thanks


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## Kat (9 August 2021)

abbijay said:



			I'll be honest, I haven't read every reply to this thread but I have been mulling something so apologies if it has been mentioned in the intervening 15 pages I've skipped...
The eventers only showjump circa 1.20/1.25 course on a horse they know well (yes I know they have already done 2 phases). I'd be very interested to see one or 2 of them, as full time equestrians, come in on a borrowed horse and see how they fare. I am sure many of them would do fab but I think it would show that this is a mountainous ask for non-equestrian competitors and unfortunately it is simply luck of the draw if they get an easy horse or an absolute tw... idiot.
In Sydney 2000 the para-riders were competing on borrowed horses - now it has been changed and no one could imagine them being asked to draw horses out of a hat.
Perhaps in future each national federation could be rightly expected to provide an equine for the use of their team members - i appreciate not all competitors can be expected to provide their own horse but a team horse wouldn't be hard to source and ensure it worked for their team.
		
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Ingrid Kilmke has said in a public statement about the MP that she wouldn't/couldn't get on a strange horse and jump a 1.20 course after 20 minutes getting to know them time. 

I think that says an awful lot about what a big ask this is.


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## Burnttoast (9 August 2021)

It has been pointed out on SM that the pictures supplied by the UIPM to reassure people that poor Saint Boy still has all his legs, etc., were taken in the winter (no leaves on the deciduous trees...). Hmmm... isn't it summer in Japan about now? Plus he doesn't exactly look in his summer coat. It's all looking increasingly dodgy and shameful.


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## ester (9 August 2021)

I'm amazed that no one had appeared to coach Joe on what to say/not say when it was bound to come up.


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## Kat (9 August 2021)

Amymay said:



			Interesting if true.

View attachment 77419

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It isn't true for Tokyo. They are owned by a riding club, saint boy's owners are mentioned in the update about him on UIPM's Facebook


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## Kat (9 August 2021)

bonny said:



			I read somewhere that he’s 22, if that’s true he looks ok to me
		
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He isn't 22, I think he was horse number 22 in the draw and that is where it came from.


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## milliepops (9 August 2021)

he was number 25, so the 22 thing remains a mystery 

https://olympics.com/tokyo-2020/oly...N_C45A_MPN-------------------HTST--------.pdf

A lot of what is on social media is totally valid but this kind of thing (him being supposedly 22 years old) shows why you have to take some "facts" with a big old pinch of salt.


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## Annagain (9 August 2021)

Kat said:



			It isn't true for Tokyo. They are owned by a riding club, saint boy's owners are mentioned in the update about him on UIPM's Facebook
		
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It wasn't true for London either. Someone I know provided a horse for them. She's a very decent national level BS rider and was asked to put a few of her horses forwards for selection. I think she sent three for assessment, only one was chosen as they were looking for those able to cope with strange / less skilful riders. They were all 1.30 horses.


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## Kat (9 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			he was number 25, so the 22 thing remains a mystery

https://olympics.com/tokyo-2020/oly...N_C45A_MPN-------------------HTST--------.pdf

A lot of what is on social media is totally valid but this kind of thing (him being supposedly 22 years old) shows why you have to take some "facts" with a big old pinch of salt.
		
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Lord knows where that came from then!?


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## PapaverFollis (9 August 2021)

To be fair Saint Boy was so tanked on adrenaline when the coach smacked his bum that I doubt he did feel anything.   Still not appropriate behaviour.   But I have seen people saying that he was punched in the face by the coach and that's not true either.

I honestly don't think the side-swipe punch over a fence was the main welfare issue going on that day and I think the MP authorities will try to scapegoat an errant coach rather than address the issues in the sport head on and holistically.

In case of misunderstanding since we ARE in purity spiral territory, no the coach was not excusable in her actions but focusing on the coach and the rider might detract from the main issue of MP needing at least an attitude overhaul towards the horses.

Taking horses out altogether would solve the problem but I think it could be solved without needing to do that.  Whether it will or not.  I don't know.  Some human backsides need a hefty thump to sort it out though.


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## SEL (9 August 2021)

Kat said:



			Ingrid Kilmke has said in a public statement about the MP that she wouldn't/couldn't get on a strange horse and jump a 1.20 course after 20 minutes getting to know them time.

I think that says an awful lot about what a big ask this is.
		
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Has anyone recently done the university competitions? I'm a few decades out of date now (albeit in denial about my age) but I've just checked and you still only get <10 mins to warm up a strange horse before the jumping stage. The jumps are under 1m (although they were 3'6" max in my day) but then the horses were never as talented as the ones they used for MP either. Usually riding school horses of very varying abilities.

I was far from Olympic standard but I was competent enough to take a strange horse around a course of jumps without killing myself or causing it distress. That's not too much to ask for the MP competitors and from what I saw before I turned off I don't think lowering the jumps would make a huge amount of difference because most of them were passengers at best.


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## Equi (9 August 2021)

Yeah tbf the coach punch was not even registered by the horse, but it’s such poor form she and her candidate should have been stopped immediately.

as for the 20min thing, any horse lesson ive taken I take it in good faith that the horse is up for the purpose. In my case that means it’s totally laid back and safe. In a person wanting to pop round the xc that means they need more forward and energetic. But that person will be required to prove they can handle the horse before letting them loose on the xc with the horse. I doubt that takes more than 20mins. 20mins is a cop out. The riders are the issue not the horses or lack of bonding time.


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## Rowreach (9 August 2021)

Burnttoast said:



			It has been pointed out on SM that the pictures supplied by the UIPM to reassure people that poor Saint Boy still has all his legs, etc., were taken in the winter (no leaves on the deciduous trees...). Hmmm... isn't it summer in Japan about now? Plus he doesn't exactly look in his summer coat. It's all looking increasingly dodgy and shameful.
		
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I actually compared the pics to check how furry he was in the ring (not furry) compared to the back home pics (furry).


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## Kat (9 August 2021)

PapaverFollis said:



			To be fair Saint Boy was so tanked on adrenaline when the coach smacked his bum that I doubt he did feel anything.   Still not appropriate behaviour.   But I have seen people saying that he was punched in the face by the coach and that's not true either.

I honestly don't think the side-swipe punch over a fence was the main welfare issue going on that day and I think the MP authorities will try to scapegoat an errant coach rather than address the issues in the sport head on and holistically.

In case of misunderstanding since we ARE in purity spiral territory, no the coach was not excusable in her actions but focusing on the coach and the rider might detract from the main issue of MP needing at least an attitude overhaul towards the horses.

Taking horses out altogether would solve the problem but I think it could be solved without needing to do that.  Whether it will or not.  I don't know.  Some human backsides need a hefty thump to sort it out though.
		
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I agree. 

UIPM will now say we have acted, we have banned the coach when the "punch" was not really the issue. 

When actually the important thing is what kind of welfare standards and safeguards are in place. 

These horses aren't being ridden by riders with a significant interest in their well being like the horses in the other sports do they should be protected more than the other equine athletes not less. 

UIPM haven't made any statements about pre and post competition vet checks. They haven't said whether there are any checks between riders. They haven't said what care they get between riders. There is no mention of any officials either in competition or during the warm up with the power to advocate for a horse or remove a horse. 

Key welfare concerns are being lost behind some fairly hysterical shreaking on social media. We need a measured response if we want to effect change within MP without fuelling arguments that all horse sport is cruel and should be banned.


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## Fred66 (9 August 2021)

Kat said:



			Ingrid Kilmke has said in a public statement about the MP that she wouldn't/couldn't get on a strange horse and jump a 1.20 course after 20 minutes getting to know them time. 

I think that says an awful lot about what a big ask this is.
		
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This is not dissimilar to what PC A test candidates are expected to do. The height is dependent on horses available but is typically 1.1m. I would therefore say that Ingrid is being disingenuous in her response, possibly she wouldn’t want to jump 1.2m on any horse!


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## Winters100 (9 August 2021)

bonny said:



			They are at the olympics not pony club.
		
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Which is a shame, because I am pretty sure that at pony club this would have been stopped before it caused so much distress to the horse.


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## Otherwise (9 August 2021)

SEL said:



			Has anyone recently done the university competitions? I'm a few decades out of date now (albeit in denial about my age) but I've just checked and you still only get <10 mins to warm up a strange horse before the jumping stage. The jumps are under 1m (although they were 3'6" max in my day) but then the horses were never as talented as the ones they used for MP either. Usually riding school horses of very varying abilities.
		
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I did BUCS a couple of years ago, you were only allowed 5 minutes and up to 4  practice jumps and then jumped a course up to 90cm. At regionals same practice time but a course of 1m, the final round of the finals is up to 1.20 and you still only get 5 mins warm up. 20 mins seems masses of time in comparison.

For my BHS exams you weren't shown the horse jumping the course, you got a couple of practice jumps and then just got on with it. It was only the second jumping round you were able to watch a previous candidate jump it.


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## Kat (9 August 2021)

SEL said:



			Has anyone recently done the university competitions? I'm a few decades out of date now (albeit in denial about my age) but I've just checked and you still only get <10 mins to warm up a strange horse before the jumping stage. The jumps are under 1m (although they were 3'6" max in my day) but then the horses were never as talented as the ones they used for MP either. Usually riding school horses of very varying abilities.

I was far from Olympic standard but I was competent enough to take a strange horse around a course of jumps without killing myself or causing it distress. That's not too much to ask for the MP competitors and from what I saw before I turned off I don't think lowering the jumps would make a huge amount of difference because most of them were passengers at best.
		
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I think the fence height is more about the horses than the riders. 

It is much easier to find horses that can jump round a 1m course than a 1.20 course. They are also much more likely to be of a forgiving type that is relatively used to being ridden by a variety of riders. 

In this country you'd be looking at good quality riding school horses and those used for stage 2 and 3 exams rather than sensitive competition horses. 

A miss at 1m is much less of a concern than at 1.20 too.


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## teapot (9 August 2021)

Kat said:



			I think the fence height is more about the horses than the riders.

It is much easier to find horses that can jump round a 1m course than a 1.20 course. They are also much more likely to be of a forgiving type that is relatively used to being ridden by a variety of riders.

In this country you'd be looking at good quality riding school horses and those used for stage 2 and 3 exams rather than sensitive competition horses.

A miss at 1m is much less of a concern than at 1.20 too.
		
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You'd need 3 and 4 horses for a 1m course. You wouldn't want some Stage 2 horses anywhere near a 1m course, even at the best centres. 

There's a reason so few places offer the Stage 4 or 5 jump exams now, not just about horse power, but to protect the horses they do have! Examiners aren't allowed to pull anyone until they do something wrong either...


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## Kat (9 August 2021)

Fred66 said:



			This is not dissimilar to what PC A test candidates are expected to do. The height is dependent on horses available but is typically 1.1m. I would therefore say that Ingrid is being disingenuous in her response, possibly she wouldn’t want to jump 1.2m on any horse!
		
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Er Ingrid Kilmke the 5* eventer, will be used to showjumping at 1.30 in competition. 

She does however make valid points about the pressure of competition, the environment and the type of horses needed for MP that show why a pony club or BHS exam isn't a fair comparison.


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## Kat (9 August 2021)

teapot said:



			You'd need 3 and 4 horses for a 1m course. You wouldn't want some Stage 2 horses anywhere near a 1m course, even at the best centres.

There's a reason so few places offer the Stage 4 or 5 jump exams now, not just about horse power, but to protect the horses they do have! Examiners aren't allowed to pull anyone until they do something wrong either...
		
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I appreciate the difficulties in sourcing the horses for these exams and how difficult it would be to have 20 odd of them but that shows how much more difficult it is to find suitable horses for MP while MP has fences at 1.20.


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## Fred66 (9 August 2021)

Kat said:



			Er Ingrid Kilmke the 5* eventer, will be used to showjumping at 1.30 in competition. 

She does however make valid points about the pressure of competition, the environment and the type of horses needed for MP that show why a pony club or BHS exam isn't a fair comparison.
		
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Apologies, I muddled her up with one of the dressage team, my bad. 

However I would stick by the disingenuous though. Whilst there were a fair number of riders that were not comfortable and were out of balance, there were also some who rode pretty competently given that they had 20 mins warm up. Possibly they should be able to ride them on the flat the previous day for 40mins familiarisation before getting the 20mins and 5 jump warm up on the day.

Edit: also spare a thought for jockeys, some of whom do ride the horse on the gallops at home but many don’t. They are put up on the horse in the paddock and straight out onto the race course.


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## Arzada (9 August 2021)

YorkshireLady said:



			horse is not 22...there is some reporting he was born in 1989 but Olympic record says 2006
		
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Yes. https://olympics.com/tokyo-2020/oly...odern-pentathlon/horse-nh200025-saint-boy.htm

There is/was another Saint Boy b 1989 https://www.jbis.jp/horse/0000224521/


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## Chianti (9 August 2021)

bonny said:



			According to the bbc who have a table of funding for different events, we spent 5,500,000 million on the pentathlon so they are very definitely professionals. I don’t know how the funding works for other countries but I’m sure they all do a lot of training in all the disciplines. They are at the olympics not pony club.
		
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5,500,000? So each gold medal cost 2,750,000? Obviously not much of the budget goes on riding lessons. I look at that and think how many poorer kids could be given free riding lessons or have contact with horses to help them with mental health issues with that money. I find the amount as a country that we spend on the Olympics and professional athletes completely unreasonable. There's a quest to get us at far up the medal table as possible so we an be 'Great Britain' again for a couple of weeks. In the mean time local sports provision has been slashed because there isn't the money for it.


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## Arzada (9 August 2021)

teapot said:



			There's a reason so few places offer the Stage 4 or 5 jump exams now, not just about horse power, but to protect the horses they do have! Examiners aren't allowed to pull anyone until they do something wrong either...
		
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Years ago I was involved in running BHS exams. Stage 1 and 2 were relatively straightforward. Stage 3 not so much and Stage 4 we ran only once, mainly because we didn't have enough suitable horses and like you say to protect those that we did have.

One exam we had a horse mounted and just starting the flat assessment when he showed slightly lame. His replacement was being tacked up while I went in to the examiners to explain that we were removing the slightly lame horse and his replacement was outside the doors and ready to enter. They didn't want this and expected the lame horse to continue. He didn't.


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## SibeliusMB (9 August 2021)

Fred66 said:



			Apologies, I muddled her up with one of the dressage team, my bad.

However I would stick by the disingenuous though. Whilst there were a fair number of riders that were not comfortable and were out of balance, there were also some who rode pretty competently given that they had 20 mins warm up. Possibly they should be able to ride them on the flat the previous day for 40mins familiarisation before getting the 20mins and 5 jump warm up on the day.

Edit: also spare a thought for jockeys, some of whom do ride the horse on the gallops at home but many don’t. They are put up on the horse in the paddock and straight out onto the race course.
		
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This isn't a genuine comparison.  Both the PC A candidates and most jockeys have a considerable amount of horse experience.  Even the jocks who start late have to be trained professionally and get through apprenticeship and all that.  Bottom line: both of these compare experienced horsemen to non-experienced horsemen (most MPers).

I agree with Ingrid that a 1.20m course on an unfamiliar horse IS a considerable ask of anyone, even a professional.  There is an awful lot of evaluation and diagnosis that has to go into those few minutes prior to the course in a catchride, that the vast majority of these MPers aren't going to have the toolset to do.  I don't think a 40 minute flat school the day before would help given their general lack of ability.  A pro or decent amateur would be fine, but a relative novice just isn't going to know how to use that time effectively.  All that does then is further tire the horses.

I rode at university in the States and under the IHSA format we had only 5 minutes to familiarize ourself with our horses, and weren't allowed to do anything in the "warm up" other than walk. We had to step in without so much as trotting the horses before and go jump around courses up to 3'.  The difference is we had kids who had ridden since they were young, on proven horses that had been warmed up over the course that morning (and watched by the competitors), and the jumps were small.  The moment something wasn't right with the horse, it was pulled and the rider could file and have it be reviewed by the stewards for a redraw.  We always had some fresh horses in reserve in case redraws were granted.  Horses were allowed a limited number of rides to keep them fresh/happy.  It was very much centered on horse welfare, while everything we've seen from MP suggests that competition isn't.

Either MP has to have a way of sorting out those riders who aren't up to a safe standard, and disqualify them from the riding portion, or they need to scrap the riding portion.  This is definitely one of those "lowest common denominator" sports and you can't have a field of 40+ competitors jumping a 1.20m course when only a handful can do it safely and competently.


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## Amymay (9 August 2021)

https://www.insider.com/world-penta...bRjuuUZnPRZgdScckYHOONTmeAXCgMYdNJyvu2oGAVBmU


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## bonny (9 August 2021)

Chianti said:



			5,500,000? So each gold medal cost 2,750,000? Obviously not much of the budget goes on riding lessons. I look at that and think how many poorer kids could be given free riding lessons or have contact with horses to help them with mental health issues with that money. I find the amount as a country that we spend on the Olympics and professional athletes completely unreasonable. There's a quest to get us at far up the medal table as possible so we an be 'Great Britain' again for a couple of weeks. In the mean time local sports provision has been slashed because there isn't the money for it.
		
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We are buying medals, judging by the results in Tokyo it’s a plan that’s working and it appears the athletes at the olympics are doing very nicely out of it.


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## spookypony (9 August 2021)

Fred66 said:



			Apologies, I muddled her up with one of the dressage team, my bad.
		
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No, that's the same one! She, like her father, rides at that level in both Eventing and Dressage.


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## fetlock (9 August 2021)

SEL said:



			Has anyone recently done the university competitions? I'm a few decades out of date now (albeit in denial about my age) but I've just checked and you still only get <10 mins to warm up a strange horse before the jumping stage. The jumps are under 1m (although they were 3'6" max in my day) but then the horses were never as talented as the ones they used for MP either. Usually riding school horses of very varying abilities.

I was far from Olympic standard but I was competent enough to take a strange horse around a course of jumps without killing myself or causing it distress. That's not too much to ask for the MP competitors and from what I saw before I turned off I don't think lowering the jumps would make a huge amount of difference because most of them were passengers at best.
		
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What was the course like?
(Considering the 4 foot Tokyo course was pretty long, contained a double, a treble and several fences inbetween with related distances too). 
It wasn't that far removed from the eventing SJ course, except they ride multiple horses day in day out and know their horses well, and still very few of them went clear. 

I still think it's a huge ask of them- horses and riders, especially adding Olympic pressures. 
I'm really surprised others think otherwise.


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## shortstuff99 (9 August 2021)

Here is an article written by a former pentathlete. Quite interesting 

https://equimarket.co.uk/should-showjumping-be-part-of-modern-pentathlon/


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## stormox (9 August 2021)

Where are these horses owners during the competition? I assume they are watching? If I had seen my horse being treated like that I'd have been over the fence, grabbed its head and told the 'rider' to get off.....


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## ycbm (9 August 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			Here is an article written by a former pentathlete. Quite interesting 

https://equimarket.co.uk/should-showjumping-be-part-of-modern-pentathlon/

Click to expand...


Excellent article by someone who's been there and done it. 
.


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## Rowreach (9 August 2021)

Kat said:



			Er Ingrid Kilmke the 5* eventer, will be used to showjumping at 1.30 in competition.

She does however make valid points about the pressure of competition, the environment and the type of horses needed for MP that show why a pony club or BHS exam isn't a fair comparison.
		
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I'm actually surprised she said that, because for most professional competition riders and anyone who produces horses (and quite often they are one and the same), getting on strange horses and doing things is the day to day bread and butter stuff - they don't spend all their time in the ring at 5* competitions.  Crikey, back when I was doing schoolers it was pretty much the job that a horse would come in for a limited time and you had to be able to get on them and ride them, or show them for people, or hop on at the sales and jump them round a course for the bidders for €20.

I remember a good few years ago now that we bought a very cheap hunter because he'd thrown in the towel and wouldn't jump for his owner.  I took him on a hack, called in to see a friend (GB team showjumper) and he hopped straight on him, trotted round the field and then jumped him round his replica Hickstead Derby course.  He definitely didn't spend 20 minutes getting to know him.

The point is that it isn't impossible for riders of a certain standard, and with the training in place, to jump a relatively strange horse round a 1.20m track (assuming the horse is capable of it).  But the sport itself has allowed the lack of training, lack of preparation, lack of horsepower, and general disrespect towards horses in general, to perpetuate for literally decades. And judging by the statements and photo justifications over the past couple of days, they really aren't taking the howls of complaint terribly seriously even now.  I hope I'm wrong about that.


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## Kat (9 August 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			Here is an article written by a former pentathlete. Quite interesting

https://equimarket.co.uk/should-showjumping-be-part-of-modern-pentathlon/

Click to expand...

It is inaccurate though. Horse welfare and safeguarding rules are not the same as FEI. 

FEI jumping rules do not allow the whip to be used more than three times in a row. They don't allow remounting after a fall. FEI allow elimination for abuse of the horse. 

If these rules are in place then the judges should be disciplined. If they aren't they should be. 

In any event due to the additional pressures of MP and the lack of relationship with the horse there should be more stringent rules to protect the horse.


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## Kat (9 August 2021)

Rowreach said:



			I'm actually surprised she said that, because for most professional competition riders and anyone who produces horses (and quite often they are one and the same), getting on strange horses and doing things is the day to day bread and butter stuff - they don't spend all their time in the ring at 5* competitions.  Crikey, back when I was doing schoolers it was pretty much the job that a horse would come in for a limited time and you had to be able to get on them and ride them, or show them for people, or hop on at the sales and jump them round a course for the bidders for €20.

I remember a good few years ago now that we bought a very cheap hunter because he'd thrown in the towel and wouldn't jump for his owner.  I took him on a hack, called in to see a friend (GB team showjumper) and he hopped straight on him, trotted round the field and then jumped him round his replica Hickstead Derby course.  He definitely didn't spend 20 minutes getting to know him.

The point is that it isn't impossible for riders of a certain standard, and with the training in place, to jump a relatively strange horse round a 1.20m track (assuming the horse is capable of it).  But the sport itself has allowed the lack of training, lack of preparation, lack of horsepower, and general disrespect towards horses in general, to perpetuate for literally decades. And judging by the statements and photo justifications over the past couple of days, they really aren't taking the howls of complaint terribly seriously even now.  I hope I'm wrong about that.
		
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The point is that none of your examples involve the massive pressure of the Olympics. 

Even when Mark Todd hopped on Horton Point at Badminton or John Whitaker got on Buddy Bunn at Hickstead the pressures weren't the same. 

They both showed that you absolutely can pull out an amazing performance on a horse you haven't met but they weren't in the same circumstances. If they got off after 10 minutes and said I don't think it is in this horse's best interest for me to compete it today the worst case scenario would have been a mildly annoyed owner. 

Annika had the pressure of the Olympics. A gold medal. The hopes of a nation. Pressure from her coach. Pressure from her national body. Pressure that funding depends upon Olympic performance. 

Those pro riders weren't expected to win. Annika was expected to win, everyone thought it was a done deal. 

I am not excusing her behaviour but I think that is Ingrid's point, not that riding a 1.20 course on a strange horse is impossible, but that the combination of the pressure, the environment and the strange horse make it incredibly challenging. 

This is coming from someone who knows what it is like to ride into a massive arena on a horse to jump a course when everyone expects you to win. We shouldn't write-off her comments.


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## tristar (9 August 2021)

i think ingrid is right


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## PapaverFollis (9 August 2021)

If getting on a strange horse and riding a big course of showjumps requires a level of horsemanship to do then the MP athletes need to have that level of horsemanship.  And the sport needs to toughen up on those that don't.

"They're not horsemen so it's a big ask"

"To do their sport they should have to be horsemen then because this big ask is part of the sport.  The level of horsemanship requires must therefore be enforced"

I'd horses stay in it then horse ability needs to be shifted to be at the core of the sport so that they are ALL horse people with extra skills.  Or other all round sports people who have worked like hell on their riding and general empathy with the horse so the riding is at an appropriate level.


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## Rowreach (9 August 2021)

Kat said:



			The point is that none of your examples involve the massive pressure of the Olympics.
		
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I wasn't suggesting that my examples (other than the GB sj-er) would have been able to, at the Olympics, but that I was surprised that your example said she couldn't.

And that these so called pentathletes should, actually, be able to.


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## myheartinahoofbeat (9 August 2021)

I actually got round to watching some of the men's MP riding on Discovery. I couldn't believe how bad it was and how honest those poor horses were. So many of them were not seeing a stride and just crashing through the fences with no regard for rhythm or a decent canter. With one competitor the commentator noticed he was holding the reins very tight and then one of his reins actually snapped. Can you imagine how tight you have to hold on to snap a rein? I stopped watching after that.


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## crazyandme (9 August 2021)

Fred66 said:



			Apologies, I muddled her up with one of the dressage team, my bad.

However I would stick by the disingenuous though. Whilst there were a fair number of riders that were not comfortable and were out of balance, there were also some who rode pretty competently given that they had 20 mins warm up. Possibly they should be able to ride them on the flat the previous day for 40mins familiarisation before getting the 20mins and 5 jump warm up on the day.

Edit: also spare a thought for jockeys, some of whom do ride the horse on the gallops at home but many don’t. They are put up on the horse in the paddock and straight out onto the race course.
		
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Even the dressage riders will have been expected to jump a fair height to pass the test to allow them to compete top level dressage in Germany!


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## Fred66 (9 August 2021)

SibeliusMB said:



			This isn't a genuine comparison.  Both the PC A candidates and most jockeys have a considerable amount of horse experience.  Even the jocks who start late have to be trained professionally and get through apprenticeship and all that.  Bottom line: both of these compare experienced horsemen to non-experienced horsemen (most MPers).

I agree with Ingrid that a 1.20m course on an unfamiliar horse IS a considerable ask of anyone, even a professional.  There is an awful lot of evaluation and diagnosis that has to go into those few minutes prior to the course in a catchride, that the vast majority of these MPers aren't going to have the toolset to do.  I don't think a 40 minute flat school the day before would help given their general lack of ability.  A pro or decent amateur would be fine, but a relative novice just isn't going to know how to use that time effectively.  All that does then is further tire the horses.

I rode at university in the States and under the IHSA format we had only 5 minutes to familiarize ourself with our horses, and weren't allowed to do anything in the "warm up" other than walk. We had to step in without so much as trotting the horses before and go jump around courses up to 3'.  The difference is we had kids who had ridden since they were young, on proven horses that had been warmed up over the course that morning (and watched by the competitors), and the jumps were small.  The moment something wasn't right with the horse, it was pulled and the rider could file and have it be reviewed by the stewards for a redraw.  We always had some fresh horses in reserve in case redraws were granted.  Horses were allowed a limited number of rides to keep them fresh/happy.  It was very much centered on horse welfare, while everything we've seen from MP suggests that competition isn't.

Either MP has to have a way of sorting out those riders who aren't up to a safe standard, and disqualify them from the riding portion, or they need to scrap the riding portion.  This is definitely one of those "lowest common denominator" sports and you can't have a field of 40+ competitors jumping a 1.20m course when only a handful can do it safely and competently.
		
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Surely then MP needs to sort out its qualification procedures then rather than consign the sport to the history books ?

Similar to BE where you have to progress through the levels to enable you to compete at the next level.  

MP needs to focus on drawing athletes from a horse background that move onto running, swimming, shooting, fencing rather than the other way round.


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## ycbm (9 August 2021)

Fred66 said:



			MP needs to focus on drawing athletes from a horse background that move onto running, swimming, shooting, fencing rather than the other way round.
		
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I don't agree.  All they need to do is change the equestrian test to something that doesn't involve outright abuse of the horse if the riding is not up to standard. Failing to open a gate,  for example,  instead of crashing through a 1m 20 oxer. 
.


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## DiNozzo (9 August 2021)

From the FEI’s showjumping Instagram. I don’t know how much notice the MP people will take but I hope they step up.


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## Kat (9 August 2021)

DiNozzo said:



			From the FEI’s showjumping Instagram. I don’t know how much notice the MP people will take but I hope they step up.
		
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I think UIPM should be pressed to respond publicly to this. 

Afterall what good reason could they have for declining such an offer but it sounds as though they have done in the past.


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## SibeliusMB (9 August 2021)

I personally feel that since the UIPM has declined expert help in the past AND failed to make any improvements in the Olympic horse welfare/rider qualification standards since at least London, they cannot be trusted to fix this now. The fact they referred to the ridden portion as a "dramatic spectacle" and that it what makes their sport great proves they're not taking any of this seriously.  

I think horses should be pulled from the competition entirely and replaced with some kind of equipment that they can't physically/mentally scar.  Unless the IOC is willing to force FEI standards and approvals, and babysit to enforce, it's just not worth it.


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## Kat (9 August 2021)

SibeliusMB said:



			I personally feel that since the UIPM has declined expert help in the past AND failed to make any improvements in the Olympic horse welfare/rider qualification standards since at least London, they cannot be trusted to fix this now. The fact they referred to the ridden portion as a "dramatic spectacle" and that it what makes their sport great proves they're not taking any of this seriously. 

I think horses should be pulled from the competition entirely and replaced with some kind of equipment that they can't physically/mentally scar.  Unless the IOC is willing to force FEI standards and approvals, and babysit to enforce, it's just not worth it.
		
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Unfortunately UIMP don't seem willing to consider such a fundamental change to their sport. 

Therefore I suspect that the IOC is the next campaign target. If MP won't follow FEI welfare standards then MP shouldn't be in the Olympics.


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## pistolpete (9 August 2021)

There’s a comment that changes have already been suggested does anyone know anything about this?


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## Dave's Mam (9 August 2021)

Not that I expect any response.


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## Lyle (10 August 2021)

Haven't read the whole thread. I watched the modern pentathlon live, and it made for uncomfortable viewing. Whilst I totally admire the raw guts these athletes have to front up to 1.20m on an unfamiliar horse, I do feel the current format simplifies the relationship between horse and rider to one similar to a person and a 'tool', something that can be picked up and wielded by anyone. This undermines a lot of what makes pure equestrian sport so special, requiring enormous levels of empathy from riders to their equine partners. I was horrified to read FB comments from no the non-horse community, think the display they watched was the pure showjumping, or an example of how pure equestrian works, perpetuating the nonsense that 'The horse does all the work, anyone can sit on it and jump stuff'. Considering the sport was designed for CAVALRY officers,  it's now a far cry to the current participants. Time to bring the sport into the 'modern' times, where horses are recognized as an equal athlete partner, and managed under strict welfare rulings (such as excessive use of whip, elimination after fall of rider, riding standard...)


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## conniegirl (10 August 2021)

.


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## tristar (10 August 2021)

Lyle said:



			Haven't read the whole thread. I watched the modern pentathlon live, and it made for uncomfortable viewing. Whilst I totally admire the raw guts these athletes have to front up to 1.20m on an unfamiliar horse, I do feel the current format simplifies the relationship between horse and rider to one similar to a person and a 'tool', something that can be picked up and wielded by anyone. This undermines a lot of what makes pure equestrian sport so special, requiring enormous levels of empathy from riders to their equine partners. I was horrified to read FB comments from no the non-horse community, think the display they watched was the pure showjumping, or an example of how pure equestrian works, perpetuating the nonsense that 'The horse does all the work, anyone can sit on it and jump stuff'. Considering the sport was designed for CAVALRY officers,  it's now a far cry to the current participants. Time to bring the sport into the 'modern' times, where horses are recognized as an equal athlete partner, and managed under strict welfare rulings (such as excessive use of whip, elimination after fall of rider, riding standard...)
		
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and yet again the horse shows us where we are going wrong, these amazing creatures who do so much for us can even decide whats best for us, they might well be thinking `well if i take this incompetent wound up prat at these jumps, i may injure myself or them` and trys to show us to re assess our approach on how to communicate with a horse and has very little to do with raw guts

a horse that is so concerned about the conduct of its rider, is hardly likely to be much use in the battle field, a horse asked capriole to save the life of both that does not respond instantly would be as useless as the poor creatures not jumping in the mp, and the riders of the military form would have spent most of their day with horses, no this spectacle bears no resemblance to military style

my grandfather who was in the cavalry, was a supplier of army remounts, and i know from talking to to him the attitude was horse first,  consideration and care of 
the horse came before anything else

and the horse reversing shows you can do what you like but a horse will show you up if you are wrong and it doesn`t know its on telly, and it doesn`t know it be making history and another little few steps towards big changes in welfare and training

the programs about racehorse slaughter and general abuse in slaughter houses, and that awful program about the thousands of greyhounds was needed i thank the people who  made them, because you know this has been going on for donkeys years!!!!!!!!!! and only now its all happening because the time is right for change, and the publics mood has been captured.

the evidence is on this forum too, so many saying how much better they think the dressage comps are to previously, but there is still underneath the glory end all those poor souls of horses utterly ruined and broken by crap training, forgotten, because if the top level was not good to watch the unseen casualties are considerable


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## ElectricChampagne (10 August 2021)

Apologies if I missed this, but did anyone see the update with pictures of Saint boy added to the UIPM Facebook page? I'm not entirely convinced that it is the horse Saint boy. Markings are different, and the photo is taken in winter.


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## ester (10 August 2021)

yup it's been commented on a few times as 1) not current, 2) not same horse- though I have seen white coronets cited for this and it just looks like peripole to me as well as the club foot 3) it's winter, 4) horse doesn't look very comfortable if that is your everything is fine promo pic


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## ElectricChampagne (10 August 2021)

ester said:



			yup it's been commented on a few times as 1) not current, 2) not same horse- though I have seen white coronets cited for this and it just looks like peripole to me as well as the club foot 3) it's winter, 4) horse doesn't look very comfortable if that is your everything is fine promo pic 

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I can't believe the cheek thinking they would get away with that.


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## ester (10 August 2021)

I realise 1 and 3 are the same oops!


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## Zuzan (10 August 2021)

What is utterly beyond me and am sure has been mentioned before .. is why anyone or a club or RS would lend a horse to a descipline that disregards the horse in such a way..  You have to question the owners' standards of welfare and regard for their horses.  

It may well have begun as a discipline for cavalry officers but so was eventing .. and never mind that those aforsaid cavalry officers probably had far more regard for their horses than any of the current MP exponents / competitors..   

Maybe MP should take on board that many of the classical schools figured hugely in the training of cavalry (officers)  ..   to claim that the gung ho horses are secondary to competition ethos is "traditional" is sophistry.


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## TPO (10 August 2021)

__ https://www.facebook.com/109161715946/posts/10157828385865947


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## Mule (10 August 2021)

TPO said:






__ https://www.facebook.com/109161715946/posts/10157828385865947



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Public reaction seems completely dependent on whether an incident is caught on camera or not.


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## milliepops (10 August 2021)

Mule said:



			Public reaction seems completely dependent on whether an incident is caught on camera or not.
		
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The social media effect? If its on camera it can be quickly shared everywhere in a way that captures attention. 

Mind you, there was some horrible stuff on FB after jetset was pts.


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## Dave's Mam (10 August 2021)

I think the reason that there has been such uproar is because until this hit the public stage in dramatic style last Friday, most were oblivious to the sport & what it involved.
It's now been plonked firmly in the public eye & people are seeing historic incidents too.


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## Miss_Millie (10 August 2021)

I never watch the Olympics, but happened to be waiting around in a hotel room before a wedding I was attending, and caught a small amount of the equestrian Pentathlon. Watching the treatment of Saint Boy was horrifying, I couldn't believe what I was seeing. The horse was clearly terrified and should have been removed from the situation immediately for the sake of his welfare.

My partner is not horsey, but even he was shocked by how terrible the standard of riding was. I particularly recall one of the riders (I think Italy) having absolutely terrible jumping posture, she pretty much remained upright going over the jumps - it was amazing that she stayed on. My OH described her as looking like a 'floppy rag doll'.

I'm very concerned for the welfare of Saint Boy, and I sadly suspect he has been euthanised. The whole event was disgraceful and I hope that there is some justice for how that poor horse was treated.


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## Gloi (10 August 2021)

Equi said:



			Is it just me or does it look like this horse has worn it’s teeth away 😬
		
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EORTH?


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## Winters100 (10 August 2021)

I had no idea that this sport even existed, but looking at past footage it is a disgrace.





 - look at 1:46:37 - she looks like she is pulling out his back teeth.  I mean who on earth would lend horses for the event after watching this? Poor horses.


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## Dave's Mam (10 August 2021)

Miss_Millie said:



			I never watch the Olympics, but happened to be waiting around in a hotel room before a wedding I was attending, and caught a small amount of the equestrian Pentathlon. Watching the treatment of Saint Boy was horrifying, I couldn't believe what I was seeing. The horse was clearly terrified and should have been removed from the situation immediately for the sake of his welfare.

My partner is not horsey, but even he was shocked by how terrible the standard of riding was. I particularly recall one of the riders (I think Italy) having absolutely terrible jumping posture, she pretty much remained upright going over the jumps - it was amazing that she stayed on. My OH described her as looking like a 'floppy rag doll'.

I'm very concerned for the welfare of Saint Boy, and I sadly suspect he has been euthanised. The whole event was disgraceful and I hope that there is some justice for how that poor horse was treated.
		
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I know it's hardly a welfare issue, but my non horsey OH commented on the lack of a pat for the pony when in the main equestrian sports, the horses are cuddled & patted & hugged.


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## Dave's Mam (10 August 2021)

Winters100 said:



			I had no idea that this sport even existed, but looking at past footage it is a disgrace.





 - look at 1:46:37 - she looks like she is pulling out his back teeth.  I mean who on earth would lend horses for the event after watching this? Poor horses.
		
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That's awful.


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## marmalade76 (10 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			we can pull up ugly photos of literally everything you can do with a horse. if people are wanting to ban the riding in the MP in order to stop the general public calling for the end of all horse sport i think that's a pretty short sighted idea tbh because everything has indefensible moments.
we need to strive to make it all better (or quit riding and encourage others to do the same...)
		
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Yep, be careful what you wish for.


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## tristar (11 August 2021)

but we know eventing is high risk for horses and humans, to the extent we don`t sell horses for eventing, 40 years ago my friend refused good money for a horse, `they will only kill xxxxx` i was offered good money for a youngster a national stud mainland europe wanted him as a potential stallion, eventing as he is close tb, but no he`s out there now, munching grass and polos, and yes i`ve been moaned at for not letting him have his chance, but thanks very much i bred him for myself and have no interest in eventing or seeing anything i breed meeting an early end or being locked up in a stable 22 hours a day, he very much  needs to live out and does, so we are completely aware of the cons of eventing but adding on the disquiet of mp showjumping

its this pushing horses to their limits that people, horsey and non horsey, don`t like, its so ugly and obvious

and saying there are horses near you that are suffering is true, we have one out there that lived through a nightmare, as people we are doing what we can to help those near while at the same time watching closely as horse sport cuts its own throat


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## fiwen30 (11 August 2021)

Winters100 said:



			I had no idea that this sport even existed, but looking at past footage it is a disgrace.





 - look at 1:46:37 - she looks like she is pulling out his back teeth.  I mean who on earth would lend horses for the event after watching this? Poor horses.
		
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What an honest horse. That round was a complete train wreck, standing completely upright and swinging wildly on the horses face.

I don’t know a thing about MP, but surely the goal is to excel absolutely in each of the sports? Not be great at a few, and mediocre in others? Or above average in them all?

Maybe that french woman is great at all the other sports, in which case maybe she should stick to 1 in order to excel at it. Or maybe she wouldnt excel at all, compared to Olympians who only train that 1 sport, and so she has to compete MP instead, and crash about on the backs of willing but unhappy horses. Or unwilling ones, in the case of poor Saint Boy.


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## Howard Fernandes (11 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			I don't agree.  All they need to do is change the equestrian test to something that doesn't involve outright abuse of the horse if the riding is not up to standard. Failing to open a gate,  for example,  instead of crashing through a 1m 20 oxer.
.
		
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## Howard Fernandes (11 August 2021)

tristar said:



			but we know eventing is high risk for horses and humans, to the extent we don`t sell horses for eventing, 40 years ago my friend refused good money for a horse, `they will only kill xxxxx` i was offered good money for a youngster a national stud mainland europe wanted him as a potential stallion, eventing as he is close tb, but no he`s out there now, munching grass and polos, and yes i`ve been moaned at for not letting him have his chance, but thanks very much i bred him for myself and have no interest in eventing or seeing anything i breed meeting an early end or being locked up in a stable 22 hours a day, he very much  needs to live out and does, so we are completely aware of the cons of eventing but adding on the disquiet of mp showjumping

its this pushing horses to their limits that people, horsey and non horsey, don`t like, its so ugly and obvious

and saying there are horses near you that are suffering is true, we have one out there that lived through a nightmare, as people we are doing what we can to help those near while at the same time watching closely as horse sport cuts its 
They have replaced the pistols used in the event with Electronic ones, F1 drivers practice on incredibly realistic and reactive simulators, as do pilots. It would in my humble opinion be much fairer to remove the lottery of which horse you get or mistreatment of the animal issues.
		
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## ycbm (11 August 2021)

..


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## SibeliusMB (11 August 2021)

TPO said:






__ https://www.facebook.com/109161715946/posts/10157828385865947



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Denny is so in love with the sound of his own voice these days (and is so happy to delete those that disagree) it's hard to know what to do with anything he posts anymore.  Again, the "Yeah, but what about THIS OTHER THING" doesn't help the welfare concerns in MP, nor does it help eventing.  This is the blame game, in equestrian format.  Useless.


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## TPO (11 August 2021)

SibeliusMB said:



			Denny is so in love with the sound of his own voice these days (and is so happy to delete those that disagree) it's hard to know what to do with anything he posts anymore.  Again, the "Yeah, but what about THIS OTHER THING" doesn't help the welfare concerns in MP, nor does it help eventing.  This is the blame game, in equestrian format.  Useless.
		
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If you read his page it's not "whatabouttery". He isn't saying "what about the other thing" he is saying that horse welfare should come first in EVERY sport we choose to use them for

There's a slight irony in wanting FEI to oversee MP when horses DIE in FEI sanctioned sports (eventing and endurance). The FEI welfare standards leave a lot to be desired. Horses are left to die in the desert with broken legs!

Of course some of the riding was disgraceful but some of the riding at affiliated is disgraceful, some of the riding at unaffiliated is disgraceful, some of the riding in private is disgraceful. Even looking good at the "good" examples promoted from the Olympics isn't that good. Mouths tied shut while bits are pulled to the extreme back of the mouth, btv horses with closed gullets. Saint Boys eyes seem have piqued a lot of interest but his eyes could be replaced by a lot of FEI Olympic horse eyes with no difference.

There are photos posted on here with too short running martingales, strong and/or leverage bits, noseband that prohibit the horse opening their mouth to avoid the pain of bad hands and people wearing spurs with no lower leg control so that the spurs are constantly in the horses side. Those photos are met with rounds of praise for having a go and giving it a try. There have been plenty of posts from people at their end of their tether with their horses behaviour and none of those people have had 5yrs of Olympic gold medal pressure on their shoulders.

Of course equine welfare should come first in every equine sport from the ground up and the top down. No one is watching MP thinking they will emulate that bad behaviour unless they are already that way inclined.

Why this outrage solely at MP when ALL aspects of equine welfare need reviewed and improved at Olympic level an at leisure owner level with everything in between?


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## Annagain (11 August 2021)

The number of people (mostly in the US) I've seen offering to "rescue" Saint Boy is ridiculous. Yes he was treated very badly and I'm not condoning what happened to him in any way but he isn't a horse that needs rescuing. He was assessed by vets before the competition and deemed fit and healthy. He was well muscled and coat was gleaming, I have no doubt that he is very well cared for and that he was physically up to the job being asked of him before that Russian girl got on him. That hour of his life was unforgiveable and something definitely needs to be done about MP but the people who abused him are not doing that to him every day. To focus too much on his individual circumstances distracts attention from the bigger picture.


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## SibeliusMB (11 August 2021)

TPO said:



			If you read his page it's not "whatabouttery". He isn't saying "what about the other thing" he is saying that horse welfare should come first in EVERY sport we choose to use them for

There's a slight irony in wanting FEI to oversee MP when horses DIE in FEI sanctioned sports (eventing and endurance). The FEI welfare standards leave a lot to be desired. Horses are left to die in the desert with broken legs!

Of course some of the riding was disgraceful but some of the riding at affiliated is disgraceful, some of the riding at unaffiliated is disgraceful, some of the riding in private is disgraceful. Even looking good at the "good" examples promoted from the Olympics isn't that good. Mouths tied shut while bits are pulled to the extreme back of the mouth, btv horses with closed gullets. Saint Boys eyes seem have piqued a lot of interest but his eyes could be replaced by a lot of FEI Olympic horse eyes with no difference.

There are photos posted on here with too short running martingales, strong and/or leverage bits, noseband that prohibit the horse opening their mouth to avoid the pain of bad hands and people wearing spurs with no lower leg control so that the spurs are constantly in the horses side. Those photos are met with rounds of praise for having a go and giving it a try. There have been plenty ty of posts from people at their end of their tether with their horses behaviour and none of those people have had 5yrs of Olympic golf medal pressure on their shoulders.

Of course equine welfare should come first in every equine sport from the ground up and the top down. No one is watching MP thinking they will emulate that bad behaviour unless they are already that way inclined.

Why this outrage solely at MP when ALL aspects of equine welfare need reviewed and improved at Olympic level an at leisure owner level with everything in between?
		
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I would venture the outrage is because MP has been offered help in the past and visibly made no effort to prioritize horse welfare.  It's also because the entire general public is now associating all things equestrian with the marginalized, bastardized version of showjumping in MP and no one wants that kind of negative attention.

No, the FEI is not fault-free, but I would argue they've done a better job at trying to improve things than the UIPM has done.  Or not done at all.

And yes, there is badness happening everywhere in the horse world and it all needs to be fixed, something I and many others have said repeatedly in this thread.  Maybe the silver lining here is that all horsemen, in all horse sports, will see the kind of negative attention the MP debacle is getting, understand that the general public's tolerance is far lower than it used to be, that visibility matters, and walk a much straighter line.  Hopefully all horses will benefit from this, but first we have to collectively survive the public backlash that MP's poor decisions has created.

Everything you've said is true and I agree.  It's a long story, but Denny is just not the angelic voice of wisdom he wants everyone to think he is.  There are other way more constructive voices out there who are actually TRYING to make a difference, not just sit on FB and criticize and talk about how horsemanship in "the good old days" was so much better.


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## TPO (11 August 2021)

SibeliusMB said:



			I would venture the outrage is because MP has been offered help in the past and visibly made no effort to prioritize horse welfare
		
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I understand your point but so has FEI endurance. The irony of FEI reaching out to help with horse welfare is a bit 😏😏😏 maybe MP needs some rich nations/sheikhs to invest in it...

Well aware Denny isn't an angel but nor does he claim to be. He frequently writes about his mistakes, regrets and lessons he's learned the hard way. Surely that's the thing, let others learn from your mistakes so that they don't have to make them.


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## SibeliusMB (11 August 2021)

TPO said:



			I understand your point but so has FEI endurance. The irony of FEI reaching out to help with horse welfare is a bit 😏😏😏 maybe MP needs some rich nations/sheikhs to invest in it...

Well aware Denny isn't an angel but nor does he claim to be. He frequently writes about his mistakes, regrets and lessons he's learned the hard way. Surely that's the thing, let others learn from your mistakes so that they don't have to make them.
		
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His mistakes around horses aren't what I'm referring to.


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## Kat (11 August 2021)

Mule said:



			Public reaction seems completely dependent on whether an incident is caught on camera or not.
		
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No, there has been some dreadful abuse of Robin Godel (rider of Jet Set who was euthanised following a tendon injury on the cross country). 

I don't think it is any way in the same league. Jet set suffered an accidental injury, he was treated humanely and with respect, his rider was riding responsibly prior to the incident, he pulled up and dismounted promptly. There was a vet at every fence and he received attention immediately. He was removed from the course for treatment but following investigation a decision was taken in the best interests of the horse to put him down. 

It showed that the FEI welfare standards worked on this occasion. UIPM haven't made any statements about the welfare/veterinary precautions in place or whether they operated correctly on this occasion but I very much doubt that the riding we witnessed during MP would have been allowed during the eventing, the rider would have been eliminated because of the rules in place for horse and rider safety.


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## Mule (11 August 2021)

Kat said:



			No, there has been some dreadful abuse of Robin Godel (rider of Jet Set who was euthanised following a tendon injury on the cross country).

I don't think it is any way in the same league. Jet set suffered an accidental injury, he was treated humanely and with respect, his rider was riding responsibly prior to the incident, he pulled up and dismounted promptly. There was a vet at every fence and he received attention immediately. He was removed from the course for treatment but following investigation a decision was taken in the best interests of the horse to put him down.

It showed that the FEI welfare standards worked on this occasion. UIPM haven't made any statements about the welfare/veterinary precautions in place or whether they operated correctly on this occasion but I very much doubt that the riding we witnessed during MP would have been allowed during the eventing, the rider would have been eliminated because of the rules in place for horse and rider safety.
		
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There hasn't been any significant media attention given to the eventing horse's death though. In comparison to the mp incident, it's been negligible.


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## Tiddlypom (11 August 2021)

Re eventing. I was once scribing for BE dressage and a rather unruly combination entered our arena. This would have an 80 or 90. They somehow negotiated the test.

Dressage judge called one of the stewards over, who got an SJ bod to watch that pair in the SJ to see if they were safe to start XC. Apparently they could jump much better than they could dressage, so they were allowed to go forward for the XC, where they safely got round.


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## TPO (11 August 2021)

Mule said:



			There hasn't been any significant media attention given to the eventing horse's death though. In comparison to the mp, it's been negligible.
		
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Exactly. The abuse directed toward Robin is awful and when social media can detect posts about covid I sure they can figure a way to block abusive messages.

The horse died because he was doing xc; he wasn't the first and is unlikely to be thr last. "We" put horse's lives in danger when deciding to ride them at speed towards (mostly) fixed fences. There hasn't been the same level of criticism about a sport that increases the risk to life where one party has no say.

As someone said upthread the <5mins we saw of the German rider in the ride was no comfortable viewing. Of course everything should be done to improve animal welfare in all aspects of the lives. I just don't understand the hho high horse being so blinkered.

If some official body was to do an indepth review into the use of horses in sport and the general public were made aware of the findings I don't think there would be much of a future in it.


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## Mule (11 August 2021)

TPO said:



			Exactly. The abuse directed toward Robin is awful and when social media can detect posts about covid I sure they can figure a way to block abusive messages.

The horse died because he was doing xc; he wasn't the first and is unlikely to be thr last. "We" put horse's lives in danger when deciding to ride them at speed towards (mostly) fixed fences. There hasn't been the same level of criticism about a sport that increases the risk to life where one party has no say.

As someone said upthread the <5mins we saw of the German rider in the ride was no comfortable viewing. Of course everything should be done to improve animal welfare in all aspects of the lives. I just don't understand the hho high horse being so blinkered.

If some official body was to do an indepth review into the use of horses in sport and the general public were made aware of the findings I don't think there would be much of a future in it.
		
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I agree. I also think its important that riders be  ahead of the curve in welfare issues.


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## Mule (11 August 2021)

Whip use in racing is something that's got a lot of attention recently. Some countries have banned them, others are allowing whips only to be used for safety, like on the shoulder for steering. According to what I've read, it hasn't impacted racing times and the racing public prefer it. Things like that seem fairly simple and easily implemented.


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## criso (11 August 2021)

TPO said:






__ https://www.facebook.com/109161715946/posts/10157828385865947



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This is in the context of many posts on that page about the safety of eventing and the type of obstacles.

However I thought Jet set was reported as pulled up lame?  I think the type of injury is relevant as a fall resulting in a horse pts reasonably raises questions about course design and types of obstacles which an injury between fences doesn't.


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## TPO (11 August 2021)

criso said:



			This is in the context of many posts on that page about the safety of eventing and the type of obstacles.

However I thought Jet set was reported as pulled up lame?  I think the type of injury is relevant as a fall resulting in a horse pts reasonably raises questions about course design and types of obstacles which an injury between fences doesn't.
		
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Agree, thats my point. The horse was only on the xc course because a human wanted to win a sport. The horse had no say. Yes a horse could do a leg in the field or hacking but the chances increase when we make the sort of demands on a horse that getting it to Olympic level of fitness and training do.

So at what point is it OK to put "our" wants over the horse knowing the risks. Why is it "ok" to risk a horse doing X but condone non life threatening Y? (?generic, not you criso)


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## Rowreach (11 August 2021)

Ok I think it is accepted that there are varying degrees of abuse across all horse sport and horse ownership, and various sports are riskier to horse and rider than others, statistically.  I see things popping up on Facebook everyday, from ordinary horse owners, that make me , which people clearly see as perfectly ok to be doing, yet I find questionable.

I think if we have the remotest respect for horses, or their welfare, we should be relieved that MP has at last come under the microscope of public opinion, and will now have to make changes, changes which it could have implemented over the past 20 years but didn't, and clearly did not intend to either, until the Tokyo fallout.

Sorting out MP doesn't mean we can't strive to sort out all the other stuff too.  I'm guessing pure showjumping is going to be under pressure after Tokyo.  We should all, always, be looking at bettering horse welfare, no question about it.

As for eventing, well I'm old school and I preferred XC when it was about galloping and jumping big scary rider frighteners which a good horse would take on happily, and falls were less likely to kill horse or rider.  Ever since courses became more like a grass track with clusters of complicated questions, the sport has gone wrong, and as usual it's to the detriment of the horse.

I do think that the glaring difference between MP and other horse sports, even racing, is the undoubted treatment of the horse as a piece of equipment, expected to perform in the same way as a machine, and to be discarded afterwards without a backward glance.


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## Kat (11 August 2021)

I think the big problem with MP is that the riders have no interest in the welfare of the individual horse. Their interest is in winning. It makes no real difference to the MP athlete whether they win and ruin the horse or win and give the horse a lovely confidence giving round.

Eventers and showjumpers have a strong reason to protect their horse. If a horse loses confidence or has a career ending injury then the rider can't ride that horse at the next major competition affecting the trajectory of their career. There will be financial repercussions, slightly different depending upon whether they own the horse or not but it would be financially detrimental to ruin a horse. There is reputational damage and that can have financial repercussions too in terms of sponsorship and owners. 

This is why MP horses need greater protection than the horses in eventing and showjumping.


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## Kat (11 August 2021)

criso said:



			This is in the context of many posts on that page about the safety of eventing and the type of obstacles.

However I thought Jet set was reported as pulled up lame?  I think the type of injury is relevant as a fall resulting in a horse pts reasonably raises questions about course design and types of obstacles which an injury between fences doesn't.
		
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Yes Jet Set pulled up lame, he didn't fall and I think the wording of Denny's post is very unfair to Robin Godel. 

It is unfair to compare a horse pulling up lame to what happened to Saint Boy. 

If we consider that horses pulling up lame is abuse then we are heading down the route of all riding being abusive.


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## Zuzan (11 August 2021)

The more I think about the more I think we need a holisitic approach to welfare ..  as in every aspect of equine human interactions ..  Yes there are extremes and high publicity examples of compromised welfare but we do need to address absolutely every aspect of human interaction and management of equines..  be that being a considerate safe driver on a road; ensuring horses do get turnout; making our sports as safe as possible .. bearing in mind every aspect of our management / interaction can have welfare and equine safety implications ..    Welfare and Safety aren't black and white issues.    

I also wonder if half the welfare debate is more about equine safety .. avoidance of injury .. ?

One thing that keeps nagging me is where there are huge sums of money involved then there should be a commensurate effort to ensure equine safety and welfare.. recognising unavoidable accidents happen.   

I see so many competitors in a red fog that obviously clouds their ability to make decisions and take appropriate action .. this is where I wonder about the ethics of "sport" .. It's partly why I personally don't really participate in competition .. training yes,  but I know sometimes I can get very tunnel visioned even in a training setting.


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## ycbm (11 August 2021)

Rowreach said:



			Ok I think it is accepted that there are varying degrees of abuse across all horse sport and horse ownership, and various sports are riskier to horse and rider than others, statistically.  I see things popping up on Facebook everyday, from ordinary horse owners, that make me , which people clearly see as perfectly ok to be doing, yet I find questionable.

I think if we have the remotest respect for horses, or their welfare, we should be relieved that MP has at last come under the microscope of public opinion, and will now have to make changes, changes which it could have implemented over the past 20 years but didn't, and clearly did not intend to either, until the Tokyo fallout.

Sorting out MP doesn't mean we can't strive to sort out all the other stuff too.  I'm guessing pure showjumping is going to be under pressure after Tokyo.  We should all, always, be looking at bettering horse welfare, no question about it.

As for eventing, well I'm old school and I preferred XC when it was about galloping and jumping big scary rider frighteners which a good horse would take on happily, and falls were less likely to kill horse or rider.  Ever since courses became more like a grass track with clusters of complicated questions, the sport has gone wrong, and as usual it's to the detriment of the horse.
		
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*I do think that the glaring difference between MP and other horse sports, even racing, is the undoubted treatment of the horse as a piece of equipment, expected to perform in the same way as a machine, and to be discarded afterwards without a backward glance.*

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This a million times better put than I was going to write.  My bold.
.


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## tristar (11 August 2021)

Kat said:



			No, there has been some dreadful abuse of Robin Godel (rider of Jet Set who was euthanised following a tendon injury on the cross country). 

I don't think it is any way in the same league. Jet set suffered an accidental injury, he was treated humanely and with respect, his rider was riding responsibly prior to the incident, he pulled up and dismounted promptly. There was a vet at every fence and he received attention immediately. He was removed from the course for treatment but following investigation a decision was taken in the best interests of the horse to put him down. 

It showed that the FEI welfare standards worked on this occasion. UIPM haven't made any statements about the welfare/veterinary precautions in place or whether they operated correctly on this occasion but I very much doubt that the riding we witnessed during MP would have been allowed during the eventing, the rider would have been eliminated because of the rules in place for horse and rider safety.
		
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a vet at every fence suggests they are expecting disaster and tips the balance of should we do it or not into not

what about the year when 3 horses died at badminton before they stopped the event


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## tristar (11 August 2021)

Annagain said:



			The number of people (mostly in the US) I've seen offering to "rescue" Saint Boy is ridiculous. Yes he was treated very badly and I'm not condoning what happened to him in any way but he isn't a horse that needs rescuing. He was assessed by vets before the competition and deemed fit and healthy. He was well muscled and coat was gleaming, I have no doubt that he is very well cared for and that he was physically up to the job being asked of him before that Russian girl got on him. That hour of his life was unforgiveable and something definitely needs to be done about MP but the people who abused him are not doing that to him every day. To focus too much on his individual circumstances distracts attention from the bigger picture.
		
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i hope someone does rescue him

and use him to promote  the end of mp sj 

you can`t change the world for all horses

but you can change the world for one horse      is our motto


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## Kat (11 August 2021)

tristar said:



			a vet at every fence suggests they are expecting disaster and tips the balance of should we do it or not into not

what about the year when 3 horses died at badminton before they stopped the event
		
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I don't think it suggests that they were expecting disaster, just that every effort was made to ensure that should there be an issue it could be dealt with promptly without delay. 

I listened to a very interesting interview with an FEI vet who was working at the Olympics and it was very clear that the attitude was that they should be prepared for everything even unlikely events in order to avoid any unnecessary suffering.


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## Miss_Millie (11 August 2021)

Annagain said:



			The number of people (mostly in the US) I've seen offering to "rescue" Saint Boy is ridiculous. Yes he was treated very badly and I'm not condoning what happened to him in any way but *he isn't a horse that needs rescuing.*

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I wouldn't speak too soon. The UIPM shared a photo of 'him' on their social media to 'prove he is okay' but it is clearly a different horse and the photo was taken in winter. I wouldn't be surprised if he was PTS.


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## criso (11 August 2021)

tristar said:



			a vet at every fence suggests they are expecting disaster and tips the balance of should we do it or not into not

what about the year when 3 horses died at badminton before they stopped the event
		
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Was that the year that one of the horses had a flag go in him.  

In which case, they changed the materials that flags were made out of.  

Also changes have been made to the design of courses and frangible pins  introduced.  

The Olympics are smaller to allow for less experienced nations.  

At lower levels there are now rules about having to drop down a level after eliminations.

Whether horses should be pushed to that limit is a valid question but eventing has made some big and not always popular changes.


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## teapot (11 August 2021)

tristar said:



			a vet at every fence suggests they are expecting disaster and tips the balance of should we do it or not into not

what about the year when 3 horses died at badminton before they stopped the event
		
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There's a doctor at every 5* fence too - think they're a planning for a rider death or just good sensible precautions? Ever H&S managed an event that involves horses and humans, of any level? I have. You have to plan for every. single. thing. just in case.

Also, given the length/area covered by 5* courses, all hell would break loose on social media if a vet WASN'T at every fence.

ETS: there was a vet in every corner of the Tokyo main arena too.


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## Annagain (11 August 2021)

tristar said:



			i hope someone does rescue him

and use him to promote  the end of mp sj

you can`t change the world for all horses

but you can change the world for one horse      is our motto
		
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The chances are he'll never be used for pentathlon again. He was provided for one competition and there won't be another in Japan for years. He's a normal show jumper, who was well cared for before and is normally ridden by competent riders. His world doesn't need changing, that one hour in his past did, but that's impossible. I'm not saying there's not an issue just that it highlighted a wider issue and that's what should be focussed on, not the one horse who had a bad day.



Miss_Millie said:



			I wouldn't speak too soon. The UIPM shared a photo of 'him' on their social media to 'prove he is okay' but it is clearly a different horse and the photo was taken in winter. I wouldn't be surprised if he was PTS.
		
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I agree the photo is suspicious but that doesn't mean he was PTS. Why would they need / want to put him down? He was traumatised but not physically injured and it's far too soon to tell whether the emotional trauma has had a lasting effect that would require such drastic action. I agree the UIPM need to take a good had look at themselves but I don't think they're in the business of killing healthy horses because they didn't perform - and even if they were he's not their horse, he was loaned to them for the competition. I think it's far more likely he'd been taken home, they didn't have a photo of him and they panicked and used one they thought they'd get away with.


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## tristar (11 August 2021)

Kat said:



			I don't think it suggests that they were expecting disaster, just that every effort was made to ensure that should there be an issue it could be dealt with promptly without delay. 

I listened to a very interesting interview with an FEI vet who was working at the Olympics and it was very clear that the attitude was that they should be prepared for everything even unlikely events in order to avoid any unnecessary suffering.
		
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if i had to take consultant orthopedic surgeon with me to tesco, just in case,  although i left home in one piece, i might think it was not a safe place!

it suggests they know the horses are at their   very limits  to me.


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## teapot (11 August 2021)

tristar said:



			if i had to take consultant orthopedic surgeon with me to tesco, just in case,  although i left home in one piece, i might think it was not a safe place!

it suggests they know the horses are at their   very limits  to me.
		
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If we're going down that route, shall we stop the Olympic swimming and open water events because there's a lifeguard on site/in the water with them?


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## tristar (11 August 2021)

Annagain said:



			The chances are he'll never be used for pentathlon again. He was provided for one competition and there won't be another in Japan for years. He's a normal show jumper, who was well cared for before and is normally ridden by competent riders. His world doesn't need changing, that one hour in his past did, but that's impossible. I'm not saying there's not an issue just that it highlighted a wider issue and that's what should be focussed on, not the one horse who had a bad day.



I agree the photo is suspicious but that doesn't mean he was PTS. Why would they need / want to put him down? He was traumatised but not physically injured and it's far too soon to tell whether the emotional trauma has had a lasting effect that would require such drastic action. I agree the UIPM need to take a good had look at themselves but I don't think they're in the business of killing healthy horses because they didn't perform - and even if they were he's not their horse, he was loaned to them for the competition. I think it's far more likely he'd been taken home, they didn't have a photo of him and they panicked and used one they thought they'd get away with
		
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he looked like he had back problems, and was asking the rider to dismount, then got beaten, i dare say he could have chucked her off , but is too nice a person to do so


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## tristar (11 August 2021)

teapot said:



			If we're going down that route, shall we stop the Olympic swimming and open water events because there's a lifeguard on site/in the water with them?
		
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well yes if they are likely to drown! which hopefully they are not



i dont think its a good comparison is not the same as a rotational fall or crash landing with a heap of poles between your horses legs


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## Kat (11 August 2021)

tristar said:



			if i had to take consultant orthopedic surgeon with me to tesco, just in case,  although i left home in one piece, i might think it was not a safe place!

it suggests they know the horses are at their   very limits  to me.
		
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I hate to break it to you but a Tesco superstore will have several first aiders on duty at any time.


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## teapot (11 August 2021)

Kat said:



			I hate to break it to you but a Tesco superstore will have several first aiders on duty at any time.
		
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Or fully qualified first aiders in riding schools... just in case.


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## ycbm (11 August 2021)

Almost all the events I attend which include jumping at any height have paramedics in attendance.  
.


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## teapot (11 August 2021)

tristar said:



			well yes if they are likely to drown! which hopefully they are not

i dont think its a good comparison is not the same as a rotational fall or crash landing with a heap of poles between your horses legs
		
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I'd say drowning is up there with not the way you want to go personally!  

They pulled the team GB chap out of the men's open water swimming after he got punched in the face by an elbow and couldn't see...


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## tristar (11 August 2021)

Kat said:



			I hate to break it to you but a Tesco superstore will have several first aiders on duty at any time.
		
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oh yes i know, i once cut my finger on something in  a store, 2 spots of blood equals an emergency panic


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## tristar (11 August 2021)

teapot said:



			I'd say drowning is up there with not the way you want to go personally!  

They pulled the team GB chap out of the men's open water swimming after he got punched in the face by an elbow and couldn't see...
		
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nasty!


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## tristar (11 August 2021)

when i was young  i saved quite a few people in the water, trained as life saver, but dont think i would cope well with horse and rider disaster


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## Kat (11 August 2021)

teapot said:



			I'd say drowning is up there with not the way you want to go personally! 

They pulled the team GB chap out of the men's open water swimming after he got punched in the face by an elbow and couldn't see...
		
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And the medics turned up with a wheelchair when Katerina Johnson-Thompson pulled up lame in the women's heptathlon. Maybe running races is too risky too.........

Or maybe medics/vets/lifeguards are just a precaution because injuries can occur no matter how many precautions are taken.


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## tristar (11 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			Almost all the events I attend which include jumping at any height have paramedics in attendance.  
.
		
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of course there is!


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## tristar (11 August 2021)

but its horses that are involved here


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## ycbm (11 August 2021)

tristar said:



			but its horses that are involved here
		
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Why shouldn't the horses get the same medical precautions as the riders? 

I'd have a vet permanently in my field if I could. 
.


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## tristar (11 August 2021)

Kat said:



			And the medics turned up with a wheelchair when Katerina Johnson-Thompson pulled up lame in the women's heptathlon. Maybe running races is too risky too.........

Or maybe medics/vets/lifeguards are just a precaution because injuries can occur no matter how many precautions are taken.
		
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hence my hesitancy to 



ycbm said:



			Why shouldn't the horses get the same medical precautions as the riders? 

I'd have a vet permanently in my field if I could. 
.
		
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enter tesco


of course, but athletes can make their own decisions to take part, or not horses can`t


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## Kat (11 August 2021)

tristar said:



			hence my hesitancy to
enter tesco


of course, but athletes can make their own decisions to take part, or not horses can`t
		
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So are you saying that no horse sports at any level should take place ever?


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## ycbm (11 August 2021)

tristar said:



			of course, but athletes can make their own decisions to take part, or not horses can`t
		
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Which is one reason why I am not 100% happy about any of the sport at high level,  or polo at any level,  or jump racing,  or flat racing 2 and 3 year olds.

But we have to start somewhere, it can't all be changed overnight,  and a sport which deliberately uses horses to expose the difference between good riders and bad riders and to  create a spectacle of the bad riding on a World platform seems a damned good place to start for me.
.


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## tristar (11 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			Why shouldn't the horses get the same medical precautions as the riders? 

I'd have a vet permanently in my field if I could. 
.
		
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oh i`m the opposite, if i dont see the vet for two years on callouts i`m very happy!


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## ycbm (11 August 2021)

tristar said:



			oh i`m the opposite, if i dont see the vet for two years on callouts i`m very happy!
		
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I didn't say I wanted them to have to do anything.  

Just the peace of mind that if the horses do what horses do,  get hurt or ill at the drop of a hat,  they're there immediately to treat. 

Kind of what they're at every fence in the  Olympics for?


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## tristar (11 August 2021)

Kat said:



			So are you saying that no horse sports at any level should take place ever?
		
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you dreamt that one up, what do think?


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## Rowreach (11 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			Why shouldn't the horses get the same medical precautions as the riders?

I'd have a vet permanently in my field if I could.
.
		
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That would save on call-out fees.


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## tristar (11 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			I didn't say I wanted them to have to do anything.  

Just the peace of mind that if the horses do what horses do,  get hurt or ill at the drop of a hat,  they're there immediately to treat. 

Kind of what they're at every fence in the  Olympics for?
		
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but they could not save the horse that died, despite being on site. so that tips the morality of it even further 

i dont have your problem we have a vet next door!

she`s very good! very low call out he he!


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## Kat (11 August 2021)

tristar said:



			you dreamt that one up, what do think?
		
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It is where your argument leads though. Horses can get injured in any sport and they can't speak to confirm that they are willing participants.


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## ycbm (11 August 2021)

tristar said:



			but they could not save the horse that died, despite being on site. so that tips the morality of it even further
		
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The horse that died was injured.  Thousands of horses that have got injured will have been PTS today.  Was the injury specific to being at the Olympics,  to eventing at all, or just one of those things that horses do from time to time,  even if they're alone in a field?


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## Kat (11 August 2021)

tristar said:



			but they could not save the horse that died, despite being on site. so that tips the morality of it even further
		
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They could "save" the horse but it was considered that due to the severity of the injury the humane thing was to put him down. He didn't die of his injuries.

The fact that they had so many vets meant there was no delay in treatment. It didn't change the outcome in this case but it could have done in a different type of injury.


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## tristar (11 August 2021)

Kat said:



			It is where your argument leads though. Horses can get injured in any sport and they can't speak to confirm that they are willing participants.
		
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i think horses can speak , if only we would listen


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## tristar (11 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			The horse that died was injured.  Thousands of horses that have got injured will have been PTS today.  Was the injury specific to being at the Olympics,  to eventing at all, or just one of those things that horses do from time to time,  even if they're alone in a field?
		
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dunno what you are rambling on about to be honest, you keep asking me , i can`t imagine why!


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## ester (11 August 2021)

Having vets at as many points as possible isn't really about saving horses, it's about being able to PTS as quickly as possible to prevent suffering.


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## tristar (11 August 2021)

Kat said:



			They could "save" the horse but it was considered that due to the severity of the injury the humane thing was to put him down. He didn't die of his injuries.

The fact that they had so many vets meant there was no delay in treatment. It didn't change the outcome in this case but it could have done in a different type of injury.
		
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he died because he was put down due to an injury

sadly he is dead, rip,  dear horse


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## Kat (11 August 2021)

So come in on then tristar what do you propose? You aren't making any sense.


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## milliepops (11 August 2021)

Annagain said:



			The chances are he'll never be used for pentathlon again. He was provided for one competition and there won't be another in Japan for years. He's a normal show jumper, who was well cared for before and is normally ridden by competent riders. His world doesn't need changing, that one hour in his past did, but that's impossible. I'm not saying there's not an issue just that it highlighted a wider issue and that's what should be focussed on, not the one horse who had a bad day.



I agree the photo is suspicious but that doesn't mean he was PTS. Why would they need / want to put him down? He was traumatised but not physically injured and it's far too soon to tell whether the emotional trauma has had a lasting effect that would require such drastic action. I agree the UIPM need to take a good had look at themselves but I don't think they're in the business of killing healthy horses because they didn't perform - and even if they were he's not their horse, he was loaned to them for the competition. I think it's far more likely he'd been taken home, they didn't have a photo of him and they panicked and used one they thought they'd get away with.
		
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agree with this, i can't understand the number of people coming out with the PTS theory, part of the rules of MP is something like that horses may be "reschooled" over fences if they have a bad round, there's clearly an expectation that the horses may recover from a rubbish ride. they were all quality 1.20m jumpers, why would you rush to PTS a horse like that?


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## tristar (11 August 2021)

Kat said:



			So come in on then tristar what do you propose? You aren't making any sense.
		
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propose about what? i have no clue who you are or what you want


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## Kat (11 August 2021)

tristar said:



			propose about what? i have no clue who you are or what you want
		
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Riiiigghttt......

Nothing sensible to contribute to the subject of the thread then?


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## Winters100 (11 August 2021)

It is actually really time for them to think of something else, because it could be a really cool event if it did not include live animals.  I was thinking today how nice it would be if they had a 'surprise' part, instead of show jumping.  Could be that they would get something not known in advance - whether it be high jump, long jump, javelin or kayaking - just as long as no animals in it. That would be a real test of an all round athlete and without the suffering of the current event.


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## ester (11 August 2021)

Or... you could keep the 'draw' element and they all get to pick their final task out of a hat! 🤣


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## TPO (11 August 2021)

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/ot...are-trampled-upon-in-tokyo-1.4643920?mode=amp

Another opinion piece


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## Miss_Millie (11 August 2021)

TPO said:



https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/ot...are-trampled-upon-in-tokyo-1.4643920?mode=amp

Another opinion piece
		
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I think he's putting too much emphasis on how 'unfair' it was for the athletes on horses which did not want to co-operate. Yes, it must have been gutting for Annika Schleu and she was clearly out of her depth in that situation, but much more importantly, she reacted cruelly and aggressively towards her horse. The welfare of the animals being used should be the focus here - it was really lucky that Saint Boy wasn't seriously injured and the way she pushed him when he was clearly in pain was awful.

I think this alone highlights that a lot of these MP athletes are not horsey/equestrian people. There is a real disconnect and a sense that the horses are being used as tools - there is no partnership or respect. It's true that the nature of the MP forces this, which is why perhaps it doesn't make sense for horses to be involved at all.

He writes that Saint Boy and Constantin were not mentally up to the challenge of the course, but what I saw through and through was sloppy riding. Those horses refused the fences because their riders let them down, not the other way around. Perhaps out of all of the horses they were the most sensitive and reactive, but there were even some riders who cleared the course by the skin of their teeth, and that was thanks to the talent of the horses above anything else.


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## TPO (12 August 2021)

I don't know what happened in the 20min warm up but the version of Saint Boy in the ring wasn't because of "sloppy riding" IMO. 

His brain was clearly blown. It happens; usually in a pressurised situation and that's usually a competition. Competition horses have long been known to "boil over" and need what would equate to down time. In one competitive sphere I've known a lot of horses to blow their brains because of a specific element of that type of competition (cattle). Never known any to need pts or be "rescued" because of it. 

They get let down and turned away, are picked up again after a period and see how they go. Some went back to competing, some went to be brood mares, some were turned away for longer and some went to be work/leisure horses who didn't compete. 

Clearly I don't condone some of the riding and actions at the Olympics (across all of the equestrian sports) I've seen a lot worse in a BS warm up and even worse in the lorry parks. If Joe Bloggs doing it for fun can't put the animal they claim to love first what makes anyone think the pressure of the actual Olympics would make it easier to shoulder?

A lot of posters asking what the point of horses in MP is but what's the point of making horses "dance", or seeing how high and how quickly they can jump, or how quickly they can go, or how far they can go? It's all for human vanity. 

As someone demonstrated up thread there wasn't much of a difference between the horse expression,  tack & "aids"/attempting to remove remove back teeth in the Nick Skelton photo and the Saint Boy photos. Was Nick excusable because he won SJ gold and is British?? I don't get how certain things get a pass and certain others don't*.

*not saying that MP should get a "pass"


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## ElectricChampagne (12 August 2021)

...


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## tristar (12 August 2021)

Kat said:



			Riiiigghttt......

Nothing sensible to contribute to the subject of the thread then?
		
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you just keep getting yourself in deeper and deeper!


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## Mrs. Jingle (12 August 2021)

ester said:



			Or... you could keep the 'draw' element and they all get to pick their final task out of a hat! 🤣
		
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Actually this idea appeals to me - but more about how a hat with various Its a Knockout type themes to pick from. That might be far more amusing to watch, and boy oh boy would it slap some over inflated egos and childish tantrums back down to some resemblance of normality!


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## Kat (12 August 2021)

tristar said:



			you just keep getting yourself in deeper and deeper!
		
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Illustrating my point entirely.


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## tristar (12 August 2021)

Kat said:



			Illustrating my point entirely.
		
Click to expand...

illustrating the point that you are getting in deeper?

if you could clarify what exactly what is YOUR point, progress may be made, although i don`t hold out much hope


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## AandK (12 August 2021)

tristar said:



			illustrating the point that you are getting in deeper?

if you could clarify what exactly what is YOUR point, progress may be made, although i don`t hold out much hope
		
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The point is, that your posts are not making much sense. And it's more of the same each time you reply...


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## milliepops (12 August 2021)

it was a perfectly straightforward question that triggered this diversion into the twilight zone


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## Rowreach (12 August 2021)

Ooh another update. And photos.


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## shortstuff99 (12 August 2021)

Update https://www.uipmworld.org/news/uipm...c5o6gJsUG8EatmtqjTZ_5UglF8lTLm0H76WVxtn8Ye8bM


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## tristar (12 August 2021)

AandK said:



			The point is, that your posts are not making much sense. And it's more of the same each time you reply...
		
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well that`s easily solved i won`t reply!


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## Kat (12 August 2021)

Thank heavens for small mercies!!!


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## Kat (12 August 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			Update https://www.uipmworld.org/news/uipm...c5o6gJsUG8EatmtqjTZ_5UglF8lTLm0H76WVxtn8Ye8bM

Click to expand...

Meanwhile, back to the point! 

That is a step in the right direction. At least it looks as though there is some recognition that there are problems.


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## AandK (12 August 2021)

Kat said:



			Meanwhile, back to the point!

That is a step in the right direction. At least it looks as though there is some recognition that there are problems.
		
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Agreed. Good to see some recently taken pictures, although the ridden video (canter) is not that pleasant to watch.


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## milliepops (12 August 2021)

yeah that sounds like more than lip service. and the horse pictured looks like the right horse so hopefully that will end the PTS theorising!


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## Annagain (12 August 2021)

It does look like him but agree the videos aren't brilliant. Surely they could have taken the gadgets off to film for a few minutes? I get that ideally he wouldn't be in them at all but if he is, you'd think they'd at least have the awareness to pop him in a snaffle, cavesson and nothing else for a very short time. I think the UIPM really need to up their PR game.


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## Berpisc (12 August 2021)

Hmm, slightly random, but how about replacing showjumping with something like le Trec?

I'll get my coat.


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## SEL (12 August 2021)

TPO said:



https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/ot...are-trampled-upon-in-tokyo-1.4643920?mode=amp

Another opinion piece
		
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I didn't see the horse refuse the combination because I had already been reminded I find MP's showjumping round painful to watch - but I believe the horses have to go round the course with a pro rider a few days before so I'm assuming the horse jumped it then. I do think once a horse has refused with a previous competitor it puts the second competitor to ride it in a tougher position

From reading their most recent statement there has obviously been a lot of crisis meetings going on behind the scenes once they realised their initial brush off wasn't going to wash at any level of the equestrian community. Hopefully this will lead to competitors (& support crew) who are more respectful of their equine athlete and actually have a desire to learn to ride better. That older footage where the horse fell, stayed down and then the rider got on and carried on jumping was horrendous. Even the flakiest horse owner I know wouldn't have dreamed of doing that.


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## Goldenstar (12 August 2021)

I see very little to compare between a photo so a horse  with a rider it knows well in a messy moment and what was inflicted by the demands of the competition in that horse it’s poor experience was prolonged and I would say fairly severe.
The bitting for start was unsuitable for a horse to be ridden in in that situation .
Looking back it seems absolutely mad that horse should be expected to accept another strange rider shortly after having a poor experience with another .At 1.20 jumping starts to be much harder for most horses it’s not a reasonable thing to expect that type of horse to do twice .
This is not a jumping 70cm in a riding school situation .


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## Kat (12 August 2021)

AandK said:



			Agreed. Good to see some recently taken pictures, although the ridden video (canter) is not that pleasant to watch.
		
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No it doesn't look great, but giving them the benefit of the doubt I guess perhaps he is a bit tired and stiff but they want to give him a leg stretch and check how he is under saddle from the point of view of whether he is sound and also to try and get a positive ride in from a mental health perspective. 

I agree that seeing him in draw reins isn't ideal either but certainly in the trot video they weren't doing much and may well have been used more as a just in case he lost the plot. 

Not necessarily what we'd do but then it doesn't look as though they have nice big green fields to turn out in.


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## Kat (12 August 2021)

Goldenstar said:



			I see very little to compare between a photo so a horse  with a rider it knows well in a messy moment and what was inflicted by the demands of the competition in that horse it’s poor experience was prolonged and I would say fairly severe.
The bitting for start was unsuitable for a horse to be ridden in in that situation .
Looking back it seems absolutely mad that horse should be expected to accept another strange rider shortly after having a poor experience with another .At 1.20 jumping starts to be much harder for most horses it’s not a reasonable thing to expect that type of horse to do twice .
This is not a jumping 70cm in a riding school situation .
		
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The bitting was highly inappropriate for the situation and a huge factor in what happened in my opinion. I'm not necessarily against running gags but you have to understand how they work and they aren't appropriate in a situation where an unknown, relatively inexperienced rider is riding a strange horse in a high stress environment.


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## moon_and_spoon (12 August 2021)

I'm just jumping in on the thread here, but the riding aspect of MP really needs to get together. 
My biggest no no is when the horses are blamed for rider error. Whenever anyone gets a refusal it always seems to spark an argument about who got what horse and how 'unfair' it is. Every horse is an individual and just because someone produced a nice round from their horse that doesn't necessarily mean a different athlete could get the same results.
By the way, I haven't read the rest of the thread, just wanted to have a rant about MP as I find the SJ so painful to watch.


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## Miss_Millie (12 August 2021)

https://www.archysport.com/2021/08/annika-schleu-in-an-interview-wasnt-rough-at-any-time/

I just read this interview with the rider Annika Schleu (assuming it legitimate, perhaps translated from German). She claims that her riding wasn't at fault and that she kept her reins long?! I watched the footage back and she is pulling him in the mouth, whipping and spurring him excessively.

If she genuinely believes she treated that horse kindly, it goes to show how uneducated she is about good horsemanship.


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## laura_nash (12 August 2021)

moon_and_spoon said:



			I'm just jumping in on the thread here, but the riding aspect of MP really needs to get together.
My biggest no no is when the horses are blamed for rider error. Whenever anyone gets a refusal it always seems to spark an argument about who got what horse and how 'unfair' it is. Every horse is an individual and just because someone produced a nice round from their horse that doesn't necessarily mean a different athlete could get the same results.
		
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Agreed.  Its also self defeating as it perpetuates the myth that the rider "just sits there" and the horse does all the work.  In which case whats the point of having it in the competition at all. 

Maybe the horses usual rider could take them around first in front of the crowd.  They could see the course and get settled, and everyone could see they can do it fine.  Downside is the horse having to jump round another time.


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## Kat (12 August 2021)

Miss_Millie said:



https://www.archysport.com/2021/08/annika-schleu-in-an-interview-wasnt-rough-at-any-time/

I just read this interview with the rider Annika Schleu (assuming it legitimate, perhaps translated from German). She claims that her riding wasn't at fault and that she kept her reins long?! I watched the footage back and she is pulling him in the mouth, whipping and spurring him excessively.

If she genuinely believes she treated that horse kindly, it goes to show how uneducated she is about good horsemanship.
		
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I'm not sure whether she is deluding herself or really believes it but that interview is a work of fiction. 

_"The owner of my horse then gave me tips, I took it all to heart, it also worked very well on the warm-up area, so that I actually went into the competition relatively self-confidently. "_

She entered the arena in tears, that is not "relatively self-confidently" in anyone's book. 

She also seems to indicate that the vet did not see the horse after the first round went so wrong.


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## Rowreach (12 August 2021)

The draw reins don't bother me, the rider isn't exactly hoking him in with them, and the horse looks relatively relaxed and happy in the video.

Apart from being lame behind.


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## Tiddlypom (12 August 2021)

Was he lame during the SJ, or has this come on since? He looks stiff and tired lame behind now.


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## Amymay (12 August 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			He looks stiff and tired lame behind now.
		
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He does, doesn’t he?


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## splashgirl45 (12 August 2021)

why cant i see any photos or video, do i have to click on something once i have read the statement


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## Tiddlypom (12 August 2021)




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## Tiddlypom (12 August 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			why cant i see any photos or video, do i have to click on something once i have read the statement
		
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The link to the photos and videos is in the final sentence of the statement.
Pics allegedly taken yesterday. At least there are leaves on the trees this time!


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## Zuzan (12 August 2021)

Saint Boy (and others) need to be more than Saints .. perhaps Martyrs might be more appropriate .. given the "riding" standards.


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## ycbm (12 August 2021)

TPO said:



			As someone demonstrated up thread there wasn't much of a difference between the horse expression, tack & "aids"/attempting to remove remove back teeth in the Nick Skelton photo and the Saint Boy photos. Was Nick excusable because he won SJ gold and is British?? I don't get how certain things get a pass and certain others don't*.
		
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The Saint Boy picture was a still taken from a very prolonged video sequence,  that had already followed a horrible round by his first rider. 

The Skelton photo was a couple of moments in time before he flew the next ginormous fence willingly for his long term rider. 

Chalk and cheese.
.


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## splashgirl45 (12 August 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			The link to the photos and videos is in the final sentence of the statement.
Pics allegedly taken yesterday. At least there are leaves on the trees this time!
		
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thankyou,  he doesnt look like the sort of horse that anyone could get on.  if i saw the canter video i would not be happy to get on and jump 90 let alone 1.20 and i have many years of experience, so what chance to these riders have.  this horse should not have been put in this situation in the first place..


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## tristar (12 August 2021)

when he was in the arena with the german girl, reversing and holding his head up, refusing to walk forwards, i thought  it was a classic sign of back pain, but no vet or steward came forward to assess him, all he got was walloped

if he had already been ridden and refused he could have been lame to start with or twisted himself refusing before the german girl got on as the warmup did not go well, evidently

the time allotted to warmup is too short, not long enough for horse and rider to get on speaking terms, and reach operating point physically for the horse.

its like the people running the show are oblivious to, the horses needs, the horses welfare, the time frame warmup, and utterly blind to when its going wrong and fail to act by intervening even to check things out, and incapable of making a decision to pull the horse from the competition, which they should have done.

his eyes have that disinterested switched off look


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## tristar (12 August 2021)

Zuzan said:



			Saint Boy (and others) need to be more than Saints .. perhaps Martyrs might be more appropriate .. given the "riding" standards.[/QUOT

why do i keep seeing parallel pics in my mind of gladiatorial spectacles of the dark ages, always assuming we have the nerve to consider ourselves enlightened
		
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## Mule (12 August 2021)

The modern pentathlon organisation seem to have got the picture. Their new proposals make sense. It was good that the fei offered assistance too.


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## teapot (12 August 2021)

I'd like to see how he looks non tired and actually moving forwards/opened up. He's a 15 year old schoolmaster after all.


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## ester (12 August 2021)

Tiddlypom said:



			The link to the photos and videos is in the final sentence of the statement.
Pics allegedly taken yesterday. At least there are leaves on the trees this time!
		
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It's interesting because the photos they share now just totally confirm that the previous one wasn't what they said it was. . .


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## Annagain (12 August 2021)

The more I think about it, the more I'm in favour of a style jumping round so they focus on doing it well rather than simply surviving. One horse per competitor (reduce the size of the field if necessary) and longer to get to know them.


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## splashgirl45 (12 August 2021)

teapot said:



			I'd like to see how he looks non tired and actually moving forwards/opened up. He's a 15 year old schoolmaster after all.
		
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some schoolmaster who needs a gag and a tight grackle and is now being ridden in draw reins...however i dont blame the horse as he was being jabbed in the mouth which would have been painful and then whipped, no wonder he downed tools and went backwards.  if someone had treated my mare like that she would have reversed much quicker and would have spun so quick they would have been off and they would never have caught her


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## teapot (12 August 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			some schoolmaster who needs a gag and a tight grackle and is now being ridden in draw reins...however i dont blame the horse as he was being jabbed in the mouth which would have been painful and then whipped, no wonder he downed tools and went backwards.  if someone had treated my mare like that she would have reversed much quicker and would have spun so quick they would have been off and they would never have caught her
		
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The word schoolmaster does not automatically mean loose ring snaffle and no noseband...  Also those draw reins really are inoffensive to my eyes in those two videos.


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## splashgirl45 (12 August 2021)

but why are they being used, i have no problem with draw reins if used properly and i do understand what schoolmasters can be ridden in, im not that daft... but this horse is obviously tired as you said, so why are they being used.  dont you think they would have edited out any harsh riding for the public video so you wont have seen draw reins being used inappropriately..


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## milliepops (12 August 2021)

i don't really understand why everyone is fixating on the horse now back in his home environment, it's none of our business really how his owners/riders decide what tack to use, he isn't owned by UIPM so it's not really their deal either.


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## teapot (12 August 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			but why are they being used, i have no problem with draw reins if used properly and i do understand what schoolmasters can be ridden in, im not that daft... but this horse is obviously tired as you said, so why are they being used.  dont you think they would have edited out any harsh riding for the public video so you wont have seen draw reins being used inappropriately..
		
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They're not being used inappropriately?! They are there to be used if/when needed. Any tired horse can still have a moment, and his home yard will know what he needs/what's standard for the horse in question.


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## Zuzan (12 August 2021)

teapot said:



			The word schoolmaster does not automatically mean loose ring snaffle and no noseband...    ..........
		
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This is probably why I don't compete .. as in my books a school master is exactly that .. a horse that you can ride anywhere / do anything in a loose ring / fulmer snaffle and no noseband .. that to me is the ultimate proof of the training .. and the rider..   Yes I know it's an ideal but it is one that I strive for ..


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## Amymay (12 August 2021)

milliepops said:



			i don't really understand why everyone is fixating on the horse now back in his home environment, it's none of our business really how his owners/riders decide what tack to use, he isn't owned by UIPM so it's not really their deal either.
		
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I do get your point. However as the videos show a lame horse questions are bound to be asked about his soundness at the Olympics and what checks were done him prior to competing.


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## milliepops (12 August 2021)

I don't think a schoolmaster used regularly for training up riders would stay in that virgin snaffle and no noseband territory for long, they have to get patched up by their owners because of the sub-optimal riding they get while doing their job. 
Would be some kind of mythical saintly animal that could cope with that without needing "repair work".
I think of schoolmaster more of a temperament thing, a horse that is generous enough to deal with many and varied riders and teach them about whatever the discipline is.

the ones i've ridden have not been textbook horses, they've been really well educated which is different.


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## milliepops (12 August 2021)

Amymay said:



			I do get your point. However as the videos show a lane horse questions are bound to be asked about his soundness at the Olympics.
		
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they might be but he would apparently have not just passed a demo ride but also several vet checks including a trot up in front of the riders at the start of the draw. anything could have happened in the days in between. the wild speculation is a bit pointless.


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## splashgirl45 (12 August 2021)

agree in that video  which they have released they are not being used inappropriately, i didnt say they were, what i did say is they could have been but they wouldnt have shown that part of the video, obviously!!!




teapot said:



			They're not being used inappropriately?! They are there to be used if/when needed. Any tired horse can still have a moment, and his home yard will know what he needs/what's standard for the horse in question.
		
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## ester (12 August 2021)

Yup they have to trot up like all theothers.


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## TPO (12 August 2021)

Anything *could* be used incorrectly by anyone anywhere at any time.

The wild speculation and projection on this thread is beyond ridiculous.

HHO at its finest 🙄


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## Zuzan (12 August 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			Update https://www.uipmworld.org/news/uipm...c5o6gJsUG8EatmtqjTZ_5UglF8lTLm0H76WVxtn8Ye8bM

Click to expand...

The UIPM Code of Ethics refers to UIPM Code for the welfare of horses ... has anyone found the code for the welfare of horses..?  would be VERY interested to read that..  the Code of Ethics refers to this welfare code twice ..


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## Tiddlypom (12 August 2021)

ester said:



			Yup they have to trot up like all theothers.
		
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But just at the start, before the first rider gets aboard? Not apparently again after the first round and before the second rider gets on.

Allegedly a vet is then watching in the warm up, but we know how well that went for the second rider.


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## ester (12 August 2021)

I don't think with the info we have we can say he was unsound at the olympics.


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## Miss_Millie (12 August 2021)

TPO said:



			Anything *could* be used incorrectly by anyone anywhere at any time.

The wild speculation and projection on this thread is beyond ridiculous.

HHO at its finest 🙄
		
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Well it is a discussion forum. I think everyone just really cares about horse welfare on here and we want to hope that things could be better in the future.


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## milliepops (12 August 2021)

Miss_Millie said:



			Well it is a discussion forum. I think everyone just really cares about horse welfare on here and we want to hope that things could be better in the future.
		
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yeah but discussions based on fact are more useful than people imagining stuff that may or may not happen, he might have been subject to any kind of thing same as Charlotte du Jardin might  have painted Pumpkin extra orange before setting off to Tokyo but it doesn't really add anything to the conversation....


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## Annagain (12 August 2021)

I raised the draw reins. I should maybe have said at the time that I didn't particularly have a problem with them - they're pretty loose. I just think that if you're going to arrange a PR opportunity in these circumstances, to show him 'relaxing' at home, recovering from a bad experience, they're not the best look. If they have any PR nouse, they'd also take the opportunity to show that he was a suitable horse for the competition and was good to be ridden by different riders. Again, the draw reins don't really create that picture. If you're going to arrange a PR opportunity in these circumstances, footage of him ambling about on a gentle hack would be far better but appreciate his location might not mean that's possible. Second best would be ambling about on a loose rein with a few strides of trot thrown in and maybe a short canter up the long side.


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## milliepops (12 August 2021)

draw reins are seen as pretty standard tack in some circles, i think it's only places like HHO where they are seen as the devil's work.

i don't think UIPM have any idea what good PR to the horsey community looks like or any concept that they might be fanning the flames with this particular bit of equipment.


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## tristar (12 August 2021)

teapot said:



			I'd like to see how he looks non tired and actually moving forwards/opened up. He's a 15 year old schoolmaster after all.
		
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i `d like to see him him in a field for 6 months,  he`s a sad sight methinks


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## Mule (12 August 2021)

It's also likely to be the case that the owner was asked to send in some footage for the UIPM to use as a favour. The UIPM were unlikely to be in a position to dictate the tack.


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## Fellewell (12 August 2021)

As any fule kno it is never the fault of the horse and this one was being asked to stop and go simultaneously which never ends well. It's a testament to his schooling that he didn't go up. Was there a last minute tack change perhaps. It seemed to me that the jab from the coach was to stop him from backing up to the fence. Riders have sustained life-changing injuries and worse from landing on fencing so her move was probably instinctive.
The fact is this was an amateur rider who lost her nerve under pressure. Heck of a time to lose it but it happens. Perhaps MERs should be introduced appropriate to this level.


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## Fruitcake (12 August 2021)

Miss_Millie said:



https://www.archysport.com/2021/08/annika-schleu-in-an-interview-wasnt-rough-at-any-time/

I just read this interview with the rider Annika Schleu (assuming it legitimate, perhaps translated from German). She claims that her riding wasn't at fault and that she kept her reins long?! I watched the footage back and she is pulling him in the mouth, whipping and spurring him excessively.

If she genuinely believes she treated that horse kindly, it goes to show how uneducated she is about good horsemanship.
		
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Quite. I’m actually quite shocked at her attitude in this interview. Has she watched the footage back?! How on Earth anyone could see themselves behaving like that and think it acceptable is beyond me. I suppose, like you say, it proves her lack of understanding. I’m surprised  that someone hasn’t given her some guidance - at least from a PR point of view- though.


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## pixie (12 August 2021)

but why did they post a picture of a different horse on 8th August? 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1424369653854343173


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## Goldenstar (13 August 2021)

To put it brutally there are horses living all over the world in conditions I would not keep them in .
Horses working in ways I would work them in .
Thats got nothing to do with the MP and nothing to do with Olympics .
I think any criticism around this horse where he lives the tack he wears etc etc misses the point the issue was caused principally by the expecting horses to jump that test twice with two different riders .


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## Tihamandturkey (13 August 2021)

pixie said:



			but why did they post a picture of a different horse on 8th August? 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1424369653854343173

Click to expand...

Oh is this not him?


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## Rowreach (13 August 2021)

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2021/...6BS0EehDVnx_l3gvfSbX4sWcY5xvZGn1iXpPZYGROQ0gY

This isn't going away.


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## bonny (13 August 2021)

Rowreach said:



https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2021/...6BS0EehDVnx_l3gvfSbX4sWcY5xvZGn1iXpPZYGROQ0gY

This isn't going away.
		
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This has become ridiculous


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## teapot (13 August 2021)

https://www.welt.de/sport/olympia/a...eglose-Situation-fuer-das-Pferd-und-mich.html

Article loosely translates as our whips and spurs are checked, backlash on social media has been insane, was upset in the warm up, could have reacted better but did not abuse the horse. Also that had she been able to react better, she knew she was out of medal contention etc.


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## lynz88 (13 August 2021)

tristar said:



			when he was in the arena with the german girl, reversing and holding his head up, refusing to walk forwards, i thought  it was a classic sign of back pain, but no vet or steward came forward to assess him, all he got was walloped

if he had already been ridden and refused he could have been lame to start with or twisted himself refusing before the german girl got on as the warmup did not go well, evidently

the time allotted to warmup is too short, not long enough for horse and rider to get on speaking terms, and reach operating point physically for the horse.

its like the people running the show are oblivious to, the horses needs, the horses welfare, the time frame warmup, and utterly blind to when its going wrong and fail to act by intervening even to check things out, and incapable of making a decision to pull the horse from the competition, which they should have done.

his eyes have that disinterested switched off look
		
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I haven't read much of this thread or seen very much of the video (seen bits and parts - enough to be able to know what went on) but this was exactly my thoughts...he was behaving exactly how mine behaves when there is a really big pain issue for him.  I had posted similar thoughts about a lameness/pain issue on a FB thread when this had all just occurred and got shot down pretty quickly.  But for me, the horse's reaction was so uncannily similar to what mine does when he is in pain it was the first thing that jumped to my head.


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## laura_nash (13 August 2021)

bonny said:



			This has become ridiculous
		
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I don't see anything ridiculous in the accusation?  She did whip the horse, the coach was encouraging her to do that, and the horse was clearly frightened and over taxed.  The whipping was clearly not done for "training" purposes or safety reasons or any other similar excuse.  I don't see any defence to the accusation myself, unless its "worse things happen elsewhere every day", which TBH could be used to defend anything.


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## Miss_Millie (13 August 2021)

I think it's a good thing that it isn't going away. Whilst it's true that worse things happen to horses behind closed doors, the Olympics is meant to be the height of sporting excellence - athletes who perform should set an example of good sportsmanship, and in the case of equestrian sports, treating horses ethically and mindfully.

I've seen lots of people sharing memes/screenshots of Saint Boy and thinking it's hilarious and that the horse was essentially just 'trolling' her. To horsey people who know what a horse in pain looks like, it was not nice to watch at all. So I think it's important that the message is sent out - cruelty to horses in sport will not be tolerated.


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## lannerch (15 August 2021)

__ https://www.facebook.com/143900235651113/posts/5827935163914230



  new photos of saint boy


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## TPO (15 August 2021)

Penny from The Big Bang is wanting to buy Saint Boy to "rescue" him. She's told them to name their price and she will ship SB to her barn in America.

I can't help but think SB doesn't need rescued from his normal situation and that all of that money could make a massive difference to horses actually in need of rescuing.

She has also directed fans towards the German rider and called them out. Her offer to buy the horse and criticism of the rider and coach has made headlines.

I can't help but feel for the German rider and the abuse that she must be receiving and/or reading about herself. A moment of madness, that shouldn't have happened, under the worlds spotlight with the pressure of an Olympic medal weighing down (that she then lost). I hope that she is getting the help and support that she needs.


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## shortstuff99 (15 August 2021)

I see a lot of comments are moaning about him being on a dry lot....not realising a lot of horses in the world are kept like this.


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## Caol Ila (15 August 2021)

The comments are like a car crash. You can't look away. From the people complaining about the dry lot to the ones saying dressage should also be banned because horses 'don't prance like that normally.' Oy.


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## SO1 (16 August 2021)

My understanding is that riders can request a different horse if the horse has jumped poorly for the first rider. If this is the case why didn't she do this? 

I presume she must have felt that riding him would be better than the substitute horse. 

Perhaps a rule that any horse that is eliminated is not used again and a substitute horse bought in. If the elimination is caused by poor riding then when the 2nd rider gets on they are at a disadvantage as the horse may have been wound up or upset by the previous rider. On the flip side ridden well in the first round and successful then 2nd rider may have it easier as the horse has seen the jumps and knows what to expect. 

It does seem that the ridden element is a bit unfair on both horse and rider. Maybe one horse per person in each the women's and the men's class. That would mean each horse only jumping two rounds with potentially poor riders rather than 4 rounds. Also have the horse jumped round the course first by it's owner or normal rider to prove it can do it before letting the competitors do it. 

Perhaps a lower at say 90cm but more technical course would better as then you might have a wider range of school master horses with the scope to jump it but you are still testing rider skill. Maybe no whips or spurs allowed in the class.


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## ycbm (16 August 2021)

Why do they need to jump at all?  It wasn't a skill needed by the cavalry,  or was it?  Single fences maybe,  but not a showjumping round.  Why can't they just do a skilled challenge where poor riding/poor horse and rider match is not so detrimental to the horse?
.


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## Berpisc (16 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			Why do they need to jump at all?  It wasn't a skill needed by the cavalry,  or was it?  Single fences maybe,  but not a showjumping round.  Why can't they just do a skilled challenge where poor riding/poor horse and rider match is not so detrimental to the horse?
.
		
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That was what I was aiming at with my comment about le trec; more of a general skills test than showjumping?


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## Rowreach (16 August 2021)

ycbm said:



			Why do they need to jump at all?  It wasn't a skill needed by the cavalry,  or was it?  Single fences maybe,  but not a showjumping round.  Why can't they just do a skilled challenge where poor riding/poor horse and rider match is not so detrimental to the horse?
.
		
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Sadly (in my opinion) things that were requirements for cavalrymen riding horses in battle have these days been taken to wild extremes in terms of horse "sport", and I am not sure whose benefit it is actually for, but it's not for the horses'.

However I'm glad that we no longer use them as cannon fodder.


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## ester (16 August 2021)

SO1 said:



			My understanding is that riders can request a different horse if the horse has jumped poorly for the first rider. If this is the case why didn't she do this?

I presume she must have felt that riding him would be better than the substitute horse.
		
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This has been discussed a lot on this post, I think I linked to the rules on it and provided extracts. The situation did not meet the requirements for her to be given the option of the spare horse.


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## tristar (16 August 2021)

well they are right, keeping horses in small paddocks with no grazing is bad for the horse,  a horse needs 6 hours a day grazing and freedom, . grass is the natural food, the horse needs continuous movement, it has the right to express its natural tendencies, freedom, change of environment 

i hope someone does buy saint boy, nothing will be too good for that horse, and use his experience to make sure this does not happen again, or get swept under the carpet and forgotten when its no longer news


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## SibeliusMB (16 August 2021)

While I appreciate Kaley Cuoco's offer to buy the horse, I think she didn't realize he wasn't owned by the German rider/team.  Another byproduct of the immediacy of social media - few people take the time to get educated on what they're really replying to.  Saint Boy looked in good weight and well cared for at home, he doesn't need "rescuing."  I do agree he's earned a life of luxury, but I don't see a need to remove him from his home in Japan.  And while some here might not like the idea of dry lot living, it is a reality for many horses in this world and if well managed with access to good forage, is perfectly acceptable way of horse keeping.  Not everyone has access to perfect grass pastures, and not all horses can realistically be turned out on grass all the time.

That said....if I was Saint Boy's owner and didn't have a massive emotional connection to him, I'd probably sell and make serious $$$ and give the horse an incredible home with Kaley.


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## mle22 (16 August 2021)

I don’t think horses should be used in the MP, but the whole way through this post I have been thinking about working horses and donkeys in poor countries and the misery that is their lives. I urge anyone who is concerned about Saint Boy to donate to a charity like Brooke or PFK if they can afford to and don’t already. That would be a positive action on behalf of suffering equines.


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## HashRouge (16 August 2021)

Tihama said:



			Oh is this not him?
		
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I think it is, but not a recent photo as he seems to be in his winter coat and as others have pointed out there are no leaves on the trees despite it being summer. The more recently published photos highlight this.


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## HashRouge (16 August 2021)

Fruitcake said:



			Quite. I’m actually quite shocked at her attitude in this interview. Has she watched the footage back?! How on Earth anyone could see themselves behaving like that and think it acceptable is beyond me. I suppose, like you say, it proves her lack of understanding. I’m surprised  that someone hasn’t given her some guidance - at least from a PR point of view- though.
		
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I don't understand the claim that everything was great in the warm up and super harmonious, and it was only when the cameras were on them that things started to go wrong. Hmmm. So that will be why she was in floods of tears already then.


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## greenbean10 (16 August 2021)

HashRouge said:



			I don't understand the claim that everything was great in the warm up and super harmonious, and it was only when the cameras were on them that things started to go wrong. Hmmm. So that will be why she was in floods of tears already then.
		
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I would assume she had trouble getting him into the ring, knew that it was over for her and it was then that she crumbled. 

I’ve ridden horses that are perfect in the warm up and nappy in the ring as they have to leave their friends and go it alone. So I can definitely believe this part of the interview. I can’t think there’s any benefit to her lying about his attitude in the warm up?


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## laura_nash (16 August 2021)

tristar said:



			well they are right, keeping horses in small paddocks with no grazing is bad for the horse,  a horse needs 6 hours a day grazing and freedom, . grass is the natural food, the horse needs continuous movement, it has the right to express its natural tendencies, freedom, change of environment
		
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Actually a dry lot and hay is a lot more healthy for many/most horses than being out on most modern grass, which is very far removed from their natural food, or being stabled (which is often a very questionable environment for respiratory health due to dust and ammonia).  Of course dry lots aren't very doable in the UK and Ireland due to our climate. 

Ideally he'd have more space and company, although he has neighbours over the fence which is all large numbers of horses in the UK have, but "not perfect" is a long way from "needs rescuing" or we'd have to rescue half the horses in the UK. 

Not sure where the 6 hrs a day came from?  That seems a bit arbitrary to be stating as fact.

The suggestion he needs rescuing is pretty laughable really, unless it is based solely on the fact that his owners allowed him to be used for the competition, and apparently agreed the riders could use a whip and spurs, which is certainly questionable as a welfare decision.  But in that case hadn't they better "rescue" all of them.


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## HashRouge (16 August 2021)

greenbean10 said:



			I would assume she had trouble getting him into the ring, knew that it was over for her and it was then that she crumbled.

I’ve ridden horses that are perfect in the warm up and nappy in the ring as they have to leave their friends and go it alone. So I can definitely believe this part of the interview. I can’t think there’s any benefit to her lying about his attitude in the warm up?
		
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Well there is - to make herself look better! 
It's the absolute state she was in that makes me not believe her. She couldn't have been there trying to get him into the ring for that long, but she was in a state of absolute melt down by the time the cameras picked her up. I'm not saying that he was as bad in the warm up, I just don't believe that it was all lovely and "harmonious".


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## Xtra (16 August 2021)

I also had an xracer that was fab in warm up but napped badly and reared in ring.  He also may have associated the ring with the previous round that went badly if the first warm up was OK.  He did seem a sensitive type which made him an unlikely candidate for MP sadly.


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## Zuzan (16 August 2021)

SibeliusMB said:



			........  I do agree he's earned a life of luxury, but I don't see a need to remove him from his home in Japan.  And while some here might not like the idea of dry lot living, it is a reality for many horses in this world and if well managed with access to good forage, is perfectly acceptable way of horse keeping.  Not everyone has access to perfect grass pastures, and not all horses can realistically be turned out on grass all the time.   .................
		
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There is a substantial difference between Care and Welfare .. If the care doesn't faciliate The 5 Domains https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/10/10/1870  Nutrition Health Environment and Behaviour being positive then Welfare will be compromised.   Neglect is not the antithesis of Good Welfare.   I think our failure to realise and take on board the Behavioural element of Welfare is critical.


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## SibeliusMB (16 August 2021)

Zuzan said:



			There is a substantial difference between Care and Welfare .. If the care doesn't faciliate The 5 Domains https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/10/10/1870  Nutrition Health Environment and Behaviour being positive then Welfare will be compromised.   Neglect is not the antithesis of Good Welfare.   I think our failure to realise and take on board the Behavioural element of Welfare is critical.
		
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So we are stating based off a couple mobile photos that this horse's welfare needs aren't being met?  Does this necessitate rescue?

I've worked for large animal welfare organizations and seen more than I care to share here.  I cannot be outraged at a horse on a dry lot that is clearly being fed and looked after just fine, when there are horses local to all of us in actual dire need of help.


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## Zuzan (16 August 2021)

SibeliusMB said:



			So we are stating based off a couple mobile photos that this horse's welfare needs aren't being met?  Does this necessitate rescue?

I've worked for large animal welfare organizations and seen more than I care to share here.  I cannot be outraged at a horse on a dry lot that is clearly being fed and looked after just fine, when there are horses local to all of us in actual dire need of help.
		
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I also would hesitate to pronounce on SB's welfare on the evidence of a few photos..  I agree that is not enough to base a decision .. My only caveat is I have to say I am sceptical of the current owners understanding of Welfare v Care when they presumably willingly leant SB to the event given past out crys regarding riding standards in MP.


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## SibeliusMB (16 August 2021)

Zuzan said:



			My only caveat is I have to say I am sceptical of the current owners understanding of Welfare v Care when they presumably willingly leant SB to the event given past out crys regarding riding standards in MP.
		
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This is understandable.  But we also don't know how they were approached, they might have just been asked for 1.20 jumpers with little or no detail given about MP.  I do think a lot of assuming goes on with requests like this, it could be the owners were ignorant of MP and its history of riding "quality," and therefore assumed these folks were truly capable and competent at the 1.20 level of which the horses were required (I mean...it's the Olympics afterall).  Or, they just failed to do their own homework on MP and research.  Which if it were me and I didn't know about the sport, I'd be hopping on YouTube immediately to see examples (and then would immediately say "oh hell no").  So some fault lies with the owners for either willingly allowing their horse to be exposed to the high potential of poor/dangerous riding, or being ignorant and just allowing it to happen.

That said, he seems in adequate care now and while he probably deserves an actual sainthood for not killing someone, those yahoos on Facebook calling for his immediate rescue probably have no idea of more critical welfare issues going on around them.


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## Zuzan (16 August 2021)

SibeliusMB said:



			This is understandable.  But we also don't know how they were approached, they might have just been asked for 1.20 jumpers with little or no detail given about MP.  I do think a lot of assuming goes on with requests like this, it could be the owners were ignorant of MP and its history of riding "quality," and therefore assumed these folks were truly capable and competent at the 1.20 level of which the horses were required (I mean...it's the Olympics afterall).  Or, they just failed to do their own homework on MP and research.  Which if it were me and I didn't know about the sport, I'd be hopping on YouTube immediately to see examples (and then would immediately say "oh hell no").  So some fault lies with the owners for either willingly allowing their horse to be exposed to the high potential of poor/dangerous riding, or being ignorant and just allowing it to happen.

That said, he seems in adequate care now and while he probably deserves an actual sainthood for not killing someone, those yahoos on Facebook calling for his immediate rescue probably have no idea of more critical welfare issues going on around them.
		
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Agree largely .. except I am probably more sceptical than you!!!


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## Winters100 (16 August 2021)

Reading all of this I begin to feel that mine also need rescuing. By this stage of the summer there is almost no grass in my field, and none at all in the smaller paddock.  They have ad lib hay 24/7, although good-doer has to wait in the small paddock with wet hay in a small holed haynet while I ride the other 2 so he is not eating all day.  I have no problem with the lack of grass, and even my poor doer looks great in my opinion.  

I disagree that horses need a lot of grass, mine are all fit and full of energy, in my opinion, and in the opinion of my vet, none are either too fat nor too thin.  To be honest if there was a lot of grass I would probably have to resort to keeping good-doer in his box a lot more, so I am quite happy that it is like this.  Maybe poor-doer would be easier to keep if there was grass, but we have a grassy area next to the stable and I let her free there to eat for a while every day, as well as giving frequent feeds of high fibre soaked food.

Really to me saying that a healthy horse is in need of rescue due to lack of grass is a bit ridiculous.  In this case there are thousands in need of rescue around most of Continental Europe!


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## Winters100 (16 August 2021)

teapot said:



			The word schoolmaster does not automatically mean loose ring snaffle and no noseband...  Also those draw reins really are inoffensive to my eyes in those two videos.
		
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Agree. I ride my schoolmistress in anything from a rope around the neck or a headcollar, to a gag with draw reins - depends on what we are doing. To me the key is how I use them. I have light hands and she does not even know that the draw reins are there - they are there for use only if needed.

One of my other horses is only ridden in what appears to me to be an incredibly harsh bit - he came with it, and it is a gag with 2 thin bars.  I tried to change him to a jointed snaffle when I bought him, but he hated it. Throws his head around. Someone here advised me that the bit he has is liked by horses who have fat tongues, and it seems that maybe this is so.  The bit is only as hard as your hands, and I did not see anything in the case of SB that caused me concern.


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## teapot (16 August 2021)

Well if we want to go down the 'what turnout is best' route - Martin Fuchs' Clooney has suffered a career ending injury in his field, and it's so bad the main hope is he'll be able to live out his retirement in the field.

Shall we ban turnout now? Clooney's probably suffered more than Saint Boy did...


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## Caol Ila (16 August 2021)

If you're used to seeing drylots, it's not a big deal. I get that it's not common in the UK, so people here might eye it askance. In many parts of the US, there's virtually no grazing, so the horses are dry lotted with ad lib hay. Virtually nothing at my barn got laminitis. Some were in large herds, others were in small herds, and others (mine) were in individual pens, depended on what suited the animal question.


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## tristar (17 August 2021)

if i take on a horse aiming for the ideal is what i aim for, the proof of which is happiness in the eyes, joie de vivre, expressed in the daily life and robust good health, movement is intrinsic, regular outbursts of cantering, galloping and associated acrobatics i love to see, it tells me that life is good for the horse, its mood expressed physically has a large mental component

keeping horses in small paddocks denies them this aspect of movement which to me is a fundamental, and together with inadequate  work,  equals a huge falling short of the ideal.

when taking horses from the small paddock environment to roam freedom i have seen a huge change, improvement in the feet through regular expansion of the hoof, fitness levels and general health and attitude improvement.

i have experience of horses who have lived like this and seen many in other countries kept in small paddocks in full sun with no shelter

i understand why people want saint boy, its not to rescue him,  more an instinctive desire to make up to him, an apology for making a fool out of him, for all those who stood there and didn`t lift a finger to stop a bad thing when it was happening, and to hold him up as a reason to make sure things change, and spoil him rotten because he deserves it {like all horses do}


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## Mule (17 August 2021)

SibeliusMB said:



			While I appreciate Kaley Cuoco's offer to buy the horse, I think she didn't realize he wasn't owned by the German rider/team.  Another byproduct of the immediacy of social media - few people take the time to get educated on what they're really replying to.  Saint Boy looked in good weight and well cared for at home, he doesn't need "rescuing."  I do agree he's earned a life of luxury, but I don't see a need to remove him from his home in Japan.  And while some here might not like the idea of dry lot living, it is a reality for many horses in this world and if well managed with access to good forage, is perfectly acceptable way of horse keeping.  Not everyone has access to perfect grass pastures, and not all horses can realistically be turned out on grass all the time.

That said....if I was Saint Boy's owner and didn't have a massive emotional connection to him, I'd probably sell and make serious $$$ and give the horse an incredible home with Kaley.

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Some countries don't even have grazing.  Dry lots are the norm in the middle east. We are spoiled with our grazing.


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## TPO (17 August 2021)

The irony is the when Kaleys show jumpers get out its into dry lots and not a 24/7 situ.


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## oldie48 (17 August 2021)

Another irony is that I thought wild horses lived on quite barren plains, travelling large distances to find sufficient food and water, getting fat if they find good grazing and losing the weight when they fall on hard times. Dry lots with hay/hay equivalent doesn't seem that different to me from a nutritional POV but I'm probably missing something. Happy to be educated if I am completely wrong.


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## fiwen30 (17 August 2021)

Edit: got my timeline of events wrong, sorry!


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## shortstuff99 (17 August 2021)

fiwen30 said:



			Does anyone have a link to watch the whole round, preferably without a whole bunch of additional You-tuber commentary on it? I didn’t watch Annika Schleu’s round live, but I was pretty sure I’d seen it in a YT video which had the whole women’s riding event, but now I can’t find the link anywhere. The official Olympics YT channel doesn’t show the women’s rounds, funnily enough.

The only videos I can find now begin when Saint Boy starts to reverse, and then gets walloped, but if I’m thinking of the right video didn’t the pair of them enter, jump a few obstacles messily but alright, until she got a stride wrong at a fence, the horse tried it anyway rather than refusing, and they crashed straight through it? It was then that Saint Boy panicked, Schleu lost the plot, and they had a ton of refusals until she retired/was eliminated?

Unless I’m completely wrong and that wasn’t the correct video, it truly does paint the rider in a more terrible light than just being given an upset horse which was refusing from the off-set. From what I remember seeing, Saint Boy jumped honestly for her, until she messed up their striding which led to him demolishing a fence and then he understandably didn’t want anything more to do with it. And instead of understanding that, she freaked out (presumably seeing her medal slipping away), and began beating him rather than retiring with sportsmanship.

I’m happy to be corrected, but I’d also love(??) to see the full round again, rather than the select clips that the tabloids began posting.
		
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I think you can still watch it on Discovery + and maybe BBC Iplayer but will need to check.

He came into the ring refusing to jump. That is where the hitting etc started. They then managed to get him going where he was doing okay until she missed her stride to fence when he said no again.


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## milliepops (17 August 2021)

all available on Olympics.com
https://olympics.com/tokyo-2020/en/...mming-fencing-bonus-round-riding-show-jumping 
she was last to go.


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## greenbean10 (17 August 2021)

As much as I dislike the MP, I do really think it’s a stretch to question the horse’s welfare based on a dry lot turnout and draw reins. I think it weakens any argument.


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## fiwen30 (17 August 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			I think you can still watch it on Discovery + and maybe BBC Iplayer but will need to check.

He came into the ring refusing to jump. That is where the hitting etc started. They then managed to get him going where he was doing okay until she missed her stride to fence when he said no again.
		
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Ah, I see. Were there a few refusals at the first fences, before the missed striding and the demolished fence?


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## shortstuff99 (17 August 2021)

fiwen30 said:



			Ah, I see. Were there a few refusals at the first fences, before the missed striding and the demolished fence?
		
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No, he refused to move out of the corner for some time, then got going and did the first few okay and probably would have finished if she had got the striding right. As soon as she got it wrong he quit as he had had enough.


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## criso (17 August 2021)

fiwen30 said:



			Ah, I see. Were there a few refusals at the first fences, before the missed striding and the demolished fence?
		
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No, once he started going he jumped a few.  Although the missed striding was a.big part of him saying he'd had enough, he may also have got to a part of the arena where napping was more likely.


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## oldie48 (17 August 2021)

tbh I don't think the missed stride was the big issue it was the napping I'm really no expert, she got him going forward and actually she then looked a pretty well balanced positive rider but he was backing off at fence 4 and also at fence 5, where he missed the stride. The area where he was napping at the beginning of the round was adjacent to fence 5 and then she couldn't keep him straight into fence 6 because of the napping. I think the napping at the start would have been very tricky to deal with as he was reversing towards the fence. tbf to her, she did what a lot of riders would have done by trying to turn him but he'd completely shut down to her leg aids. I've read so much criticism of her riding but I'd be interested to know what others would have done in her situation. It's a common problem and I've seen it so many times at  competitions, horses that nap towards the collecting ring or the lorry park. We've had the odd one but a pc kick, whip in the correct hand and a couple of sharp taps + positive riding has generally got the horse going but there's often a pole or two in consequence and fortunately not a ship load of nastiness on social media to deal with after, just some work to do before the next competition!


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## greenbean10 (17 August 2021)

oldie48 said:



			tbh I don't think the missed stride was the big issue it was the napping I'm really no expert, she got him going forward and actually she then looked a pretty well balanced positive rider but he was backing off at fence 4 and also at fence 5, where he missed the stride. The area where he was napping at the beginning of the round was adjacent to fence 5 and then she couldn't keep him straight into fence 6 because of the napping. I think the napping at the start would have been very tricky to deal with as he was reversing towards the fence. tbf to her, she did what a lot of riders would have done by trying to turn him but he'd completely shut down to her leg aids. I've read so much criticism of her riding but I'd be interested to know what others would have done in her situation. It's a common problem and I've seen it so many times at  competitions, horses that nap towards the collecting ring or the lorry park. We've had the odd one but a pc kick, whip in the correct hand and a couple of sharp taps + positive riding has generally got the horse going but there's often a pole or two in consequence and fortunately not a ship load of nastiness on social media to deal with after, just some work to do before the next competition!
		
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I completely agree with this. I’ve seen horses do far worse than this going into the ring, get a few serious wallops and go on to jump fine. No one seems to bat an eyelid.


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## Kat (17 August 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			I think you can still watch it on Discovery + and maybe BBC Iplayer but will need to check.

He came into the ring refusing to jump. That is where the hitting etc started. They then managed to get him going where he was doing okay until she missed her stride to fence when he said no again.
		
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Anyone looking to understand what happened really needs to watch his first round too. That is where the problem started.


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## tristar (17 August 2021)

oldie48 said:



			tbh I don't think the missed stride was the big issue it was the napping I'm really no expert, she got him going forward and actually she then looked a pretty well balanced positive rider but he was backing off at fence 4 and also at fence 5, where he missed the stride. The area where he was napping at the beginning of the round was adjacent to fence 5 and then she couldn't keep him straight into fence 6 because of the napping. I think the napping at the start would have been very tricky to deal with as he was reversing towards the fence. tbf to her, she did what a lot of riders would have done by trying to turn him but he'd completely shut down to her leg aids. I've read so much criticism of her riding but I'd be interested to know what others would have done in her situation. It's a common problem and I've seen it so many times at  competitions, horses that nap towards the collecting ring or the lorry park. We've had the odd one but a pc kick, whip in the correct hand and a couple of sharp taps + positive riding has generally got the horse going but there's often a pole or two in consequence and fortunately not a ship load of nastiness on social media to deal with after, just some work to do before the next competition!
		
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with due respect, O 48, it was the olympics so horse should be happy at that level

i think she should have just got off, and said, `my equipment is broken` well she would not have beaten a bike  or maybe she would have!

personally i would have got off, the horse is being very clear in asking her to dismount, his body language says it all, there is clearly a serious problem

if it had been a training issue it should have been addressed at home


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## oldie48 (17 August 2021)

tristar said:



			with due respect, O 48, it was the olympics so horse should be happy at that level

i think she should have just got off, and said, `my equipment is broken` well she would not have beaten a bike  or maybe she would have!

personally i would have got off, the horse is being very clear in asking her to dismount, his body language says it all, there is clearly a serious problem

if it had been a training issue it should have been addressed at home
		
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Well horse clearly not happy at that level on the day, but that was not the rider's fault and obviously it was not a problem she could have foreseen or dealt with at home.You would have got off and tbh after trying a good kick etc I'd have got off too but then again I've never ridden for an Olympic Gold medal. I do wonder what the keyboard warriors/ team coach etc  would have made of it if she'd given up before jumping a fence. The first round on this horse was, as Kat says, probably key and AS had to deal with the consequences. I'd like to say that in the heat of the moment I've always made the right decision but I haven't and AS had a lot at stake, with a coach shouting instructions at her (who knew you could have outside interference?) but thank you for answering my question. x


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## tristar (17 August 2021)

oldie48 said:



			Well horse clearly not happy at that level on the day, but that was not the rider's fault and obviously it was not a problem she could have foreseen or dealt with at home.You would have got off and tbh after trying a good kick etc I'd have got off too but then again I've never ridden for an Olympic Gold medal. I do wonder what the keyboard warriors/ team coach etc  would have made of it if she'd given up before jumping a fence. The first round on this horse was, as Kat says, probably key and AS had to deal with the consequences. I'd like to say that in the heat of the moment I've always made the right decision but I haven't and AS had a lot at stake, with a coach shouting instructions at her (who knew you could have outside interference?) but thank you for answering my question. x
		
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you have hit the nail on the head there, with would she have reacted differently without the pressure on the day, circumstances


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## lannerch (17 August 2021)

ester said:



			This has been discussed a lot on this post, I think I linked to the rules on it and provided extracts. The situation did not meet the requirements for her to be given the option of the spare horse.
		
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I read that the reason she could not change horses was more to do with the fact that the second reserve horse had already been used so there was no horse left to swop to.


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## milliepops (17 August 2021)

there were 4 reserve horses. plus the reasons for swapping being permitted are detailed in the rules so i think that is incorrect.


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## splashgirl45 (17 August 2021)

the horse should have been eliminated in the previous round but as the allotted time ran out he was not.  he had obviously shut down so was not suitable to carry on in the competition, and that is the fault of the admin not the rider, however the horse was napping in the collecting ring and i would have thought it would have been more sensible for the coach to approach the organisers to point out that the horse was not suitable for the job rather than telling the rider to whip him which was obviously not working.  what amazes me in this pc world is that if horse and/or rider fall they can continue until the second fall,  that seems so wrong, it could lead to serious injury


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## ester (17 August 2021)

ester said:



			I was sad enough to rifle through the rules re. changing horse.
They don't copy and paste very well though- page 66 for the vet stuff (which seems to concentrate only on lameness which I think is a flaw) and page 70 for other reasons.
and bit on if the rider thinks the horse is not fit :
Before mounting, a pentathlete may ask for an examination of their horse if they think
it is not fit to start. After consultation with the Veterinarian, the UIPM TD/NTO may
decide to permit a change of the horse.

https://www.uipmworld.org/sites/default/files/uipm_comp_rules_and_reg_2018_a5_v3.pdf

Click to expand...

Here is my post/link to the rules again.


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## Orangehorse (18 August 2021)

Shouldn't the competitors be able to watch "their" horse being show jumped over 1 round by its usual rider, and then let the competitor get on after 10 minutes or so of rest, let them get to know the horse, as done now, and then go in to jump.  So they would have the confidence to know that the horse is capable of completing the phase, and then it would really be the skill of the rider being tested.


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## Fred66 (18 August 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			the horse should have been eliminated in the previous round but as the allotted time ran out he was not.  he had obviously shut down so was not suitable to carry on in the competition, and that is the fault of the admin not the rider, however the horse was napping in the collecting ring and i would have thought it would have been more sensible for the coach to approach the organisers to point out that the horse was not suitable for the job rather than telling the rider to whip him which was obviously not working.  what amazes me in this pc world is that if horse and/or rider fall they can continue until the second fall,  that seems so wrong, it could lead to serious injury
		
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As far as I could tell he had accumulated the 4 disobedience’s required to eliminate the first rider and the following rider could have asked for a horse exchange. Possibly they slipped up but once she got on then she lost the opportunity to challenge.


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## Kat (19 August 2021)

Fred66 said:



			As far as I could tell he had accumulated the 4 disobedience’s required to eliminate the first rider and the following rider could have asked for a horse exchange. Possibly they slipped up but once she got on then she lost the opportunity to challenge.
		
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Apparently he only refused three times before the time ran down so a substitution wasn't permitted. 

It seems the definition of a refusal is different in pentathlon as I agree that it looked like more than 3.


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## HashRouge (19 August 2021)

ester said:



			Here is my post/link to the rules again.
		
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So I read somewhere (wish I could find the link!) that her coach or someone linked said they'd asked to change horse due to its performance in the previous round, but were told that they couldn't as it had only refused three times. According to the rules he would have had to refused four times for this to be allowed. I'm not sure why they fact that he essentially refused to move until the clock ran out wasn't taken into consideration...
It might have been better if they'd perhaps argued that he wasn't fit to start/ it was a horse welfare issue. You'd hope that would have been taken more seriously!

Ultimately, I don't like the way she rode or handled him, but I also don't think she should have been sat on him in the first place as he clearly should have been withdrawn after his first round.


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## ester (19 August 2021)

Orangehorse said:



			Shouldn't the competitors be able to watch "their" horse being show jumped over 1 round by its usual rider, and then let the competitor get on after 10 minutes or so of rest, let them get to know the horse, as done now, and then go in to jump.  So they would have the confidence to know that the horse is capable of completing the phase, and then it would really be the skill of the rider being tested.
		
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They do! Albeit days not 10 minutes before, I think them having to do 2 warm ups/rounds was sufficient in the heat.


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## MagicMelon (19 August 2021)

Xtra said:



			I also had an xracer that was fab in warm up but napped badly and reared in ring.  He also may have associated the ring with the previous round that went badly if the first warm up was OK.  He did seem a sensitive type which made him an unlikely candidate for MP sadly.
		
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Me too, I had a warmblood who would jump anything of any height at home and in training but put him in the ring and he'd just nap until we got eliminated. I found out later that he'd been beaten by his previous owners in the ring (who had backed him) to the point people actually recognised him because of it. He just didnt want to know so as I wanted to jump I sold him to a hacking home where he never had to jump again. Looks like this poor horse needs the same!


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## shortstuff99 (20 August 2021)

https://www.uipmworld.org/news/uipm-forms-riding-working-group-and-appoints-disciplinary-panel


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## TPO (20 August 2021)

I wonder if the German rider will be disciplined?

The spotlight that her behaviour has shone onto the sport, for all the wrong reasons, is phenomenal. I can't imagine that she is very popular with the MP committee


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## milliepops (20 August 2021)

so far, its looking like reasonable actions are planned, these all seem pretty meaningful so far. fingers crossed!


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## shortstuff99 (6 September 2021)

Outcome of the disciplinary panel, the coach found to be in breach of rules and warned. Rider found not to have used excessive whip or spurs (if you can believe it).

https://www.uipmworld.org/news/uipm-disciplinary-panel-kim-raisner-and-annika-schleu-ger


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## ycbm (6 September 2021)

shortstuff99 said:



			. Rider found not to have used excessive whip or spurs (if you can believe it).
		
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OFFS!
.


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## ester (6 September 2021)

dropped that ball then
'no animal welfare issues to answer '
'Inhumane treatment of animals in any form will not be tolerated, '
ermmm


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## laura_nash (6 September 2021)

ester said:



			dropped that ball then
'no animal welfare issues to answer '
'Inhumane treatment of animals in any form will not be tolerated, '
ermmm
		
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I think it's now clear they can't or won't put their own house in order.  Something needs to be done before this tiny sport ruins it for everyone.  I wonder what the process is to throw a sport out of the Olympics?


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## teapot (6 September 2021)

This is interesting: https://www.uipmworld.org/news/uipm-forms-riding-working-group-and-appoints-disciplinary-panel

So no one on it from the FEI as yet...


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## Quigleyandme (6 September 2021)

I don‘t know if I read it on this thread or elsewhere but MP is based on the skills needed by a soldier to escape capture so why can’t the showjumping element be subbed by climbing or assault course or something that doesn’t necessitate an animal?


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## Amymay (8 September 2021)

Observation from Dr David Marlin on the disciplinary panel findings.

WEAK, ARROGANT AND NAIVE - UIPM DISCIPLINARY PANEL FINDINGS ON KIM REISNER & ANNIKA SCHLEU AT TOKYO 2020 MODERN PENTATHLON JUMPING

The following words come to mind after reading the findings of the UIPM Disciplinary Panel published yesterday online – Weak. Arrogant. Naïve. 

Whilst the panel upheld sanctions at Tokyo and further sanctioned coach KIM REISNER (GER), it is astounding that no action is to be taken against the rider ANNIKA SCHLEU (GER).

“Annika Schleu, representing Germany as an athlete, was found not guilty of excessive use of the whip and spurs and no action will be taken”

This is DESPITE the fact that they have this rule:

Rule 4.6.8. Disqualification (as per UIPM 2018 Competition Rules)
A pentathlete or team is disqualified for:
i. unsportsmanlike conduct or contempt of officials;
ii. rapping or beating a horse and all other cases of cruelty and/or ill treatment of a horse;

To me SCHLEU was guilty of both “unsportsmanlike behaviour” AND “beating a horse”. 

As far as I can recall SCHLEU at one stage hit SAINT BOY 6-7 times in 2-3 seconds. Is that not a “beating”?

So despite all their promises, the UIPM seems to have decided not to respond to the outcry from equestrians and the lay public. Why? Are they weak? Scared that there will be more “tantrums” from athletes and their membership. I received plenty of abuse from within MP for raising concerns. Are they arrogant? They don’t think they have to do anything and can just carry on as they have always done? Are they naïve? Do they think now we are a month on everyone will have lost interest? Or maybe all three.


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## cold_feet (2 November 2021)

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...itch-horse-riding-after-tokyo-olympic-turmoil


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## stangs (2 November 2021)

Happy for the horses involved, sad for the athletes who joined the sport because of the riding element. And generally unsurprised that cycling will be replacing it.


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## cauda equina (2 November 2021)

Perhaps it's damage limitation - there's a petition doing the rounds on change.org to ditch all equestrian sports at the Olympics and the Modern Pentathlon fiasco forms a large part of its argument


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## Tiddlypom (2 November 2021)

_Modern pentathlon’s governing body has secretly voted to remove horse riding from the sport and replace it with cycling, multiple sources have told the Guardian.

The decision, which is said to have been taken by the UIPM’s executive board in recent days, was hastened by the distressing scenes at the Tokyo Olympics when a horse was punched by a German coach after refusing to jump a fence.

The former British modern pentathlete, Kate Allenby, who won a bronze for Team GB at the Sydney Olympics, told the Guardian any move to replace riding would be a “disaster” for the sport.

“This needs talking about because it’s not modern pentathlon if it hasn’t got riding in it,” she added.
_


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## jnb (2 November 2021)

I have always said, the outcry after the MP needed to tread carefully as as recently as 2008 or so, moves were afoot to ditch equestrian full stop, from the Olympics. Looks like this has handed the IOC the stick to beat equestrianism with, quite literally.


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## Rowreach (2 November 2021)

MP had its chance and failed to put its own house in order.  I have no problem with that decision, no bicycles will be traumatised by being ridden  by these athletes.

The Olympics showcases sports that people don't know a lot about, which tends to raise interest and opinions (like the discovery of curling and boccia), and inevitably leads to questions about the ethics of horse sport.  Taking it out of the Olympics might actually save equestrianism in the wider sense.


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## ElectricChampagne (2 November 2021)

jnb said:



			I have always said, the outcry after the MP needed to tread carefully as as recently as 2008 or so, moves were afoot to ditch equestrian full stop, from the Olympics. Looks like this has handed the IOC the stick to beat equestrianism with, quite literally. 

Click to expand...

Which is such a shame since it's the modern pentathlon thats not even governed by the FEI.


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## ester (2 November 2021)

I'm not sure it has handed them a stick, MP equestrianism is very different to the rest.


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## jnb (2 November 2021)

ester said:



			I'm not sure it has handed them a stick, MP equestrianism is very different to the rest.
		
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I absolutely agree with you but I distinctly remember Princess Anne defending Equestrian very rigorously when there was an attempt to remove it from the Olympics due to adverse weather (the excuse) 

 I think it was Atlanta  - there was a very real chance all Equestrian Sports would be dropped. No sport is safe from being dropped that is abundantly clear.


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## splashgirl45 (2 November 2021)

i think if its not dropped they need to make it the first sport event so the athletes should be less wound up,  i think the fact that it made the difference between gold and nothing contributed to the desperation of the rider and her team.  still thats no excuse for the fiasco and the treatment of that horse but may have been part of the problem


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## ycbm (2 November 2021)

cold_feet said:



https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...itch-horse-riding-after-tokyo-olympic-turmoil

Click to expand...


Great result! 
.


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## Mynstrel (2 November 2021)

If riding were to stay in MP then the rules need to be brought in line with normal jumping rules regarding stops, rider falls etc. If they had to do it properly then it'd make them try to be riders - or find a different sport. At the Olympics half of them would have been eliminated before the first fence. When you listen to some of the athletes talking about their training it beggars belief, swimming and running x times per week, fencing and shooting y times per month, riding once in a blue moon. It's beyond me why they don't put more effort into the part of their sport that could do them serious harm.


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## Amymay (2 November 2021)

Hopefully, excellent news.


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## teapot (2 November 2021)

Mynstrel said:



			When you listen to some of the athletes talking about their training it beggars belief, swimming and running x times per week, fencing and shooting y times per month, riding once in a blue moon. It's beyond me why they don't put more effort into the part of their sport that could do them serious harm.
		
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Cost, time, access...  

I just hope this isn't the death knell of Olympic equstrian sports. Why they couldn't have come into line with the FEI, upped the standard and rules is beyond me.  Though removing it I guess stops them having to address that very elephant in the room.

Look forward to the official statement.


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## Fred66 (3 November 2021)

ycbm said:



			Great result!
.
		
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Totally disagree. What makes modern pentathlon unique is the combining of equine and sporting prowess. Change it, make it more of mini hunter trial with smaller fences, slip rail and gate, or dressage, make it comply with FEI rules regarding use of whip. Allow them more time to ride the horse the day before, grade competitors riding ability to achieve a minimum qualifying standard.

So many things could have been done to maintain the equestrian element to me it will no longer be MP and they may as well just drop the sport.


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## Mule (3 November 2021)

The German rider started her round already in tears. She got worse at it progressed. It was a disaster that has directly resulted in removal of the equestrian aspect of the sport. 

It doesn't seem right for the other competitors to suffer as a result of a poor ride. I think better training would be the answer or perhaps the riders getting more time with their assigned horse before competition.


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## TPO (3 November 2021)

So this thread started with people wanting horses out of MP and replaced with a different sport. That's happened and now people think it's a shame to have lost it and that the actions  of one competitor and coach shouldn't "ruin" the sport for everyone. I think I've got whiplash


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## Rowreach (3 November 2021)

Fred66 said:



			Totally disagree. What makes modern pentathlon unique is the combining of equine and sporting prowess. Change it, make it more of mini hunter trial with smaller fences, slip rail and gate, or dressage, make it comply with FEI rules regarding use of whip. Allow them more time to ride the horse the day before, grade competitors riding ability to achieve a minimum qualifying standard.

So many things could have been done to maintain the equestrian element to me it will no longer be MP and they may as well just drop the sport.
		
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Well that's the whole point, MP had quite literally decades to sort themselves out and do any number of things such as you've suggested, and they didnt, their arrogance got the better of tbem, Tokyo was the result, and now they are on their bikes.


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## smolmaus (3 November 2021)

I was disappointed when I saw the news. In a petty sort of way though. I think this decision just confirms that the sub-standard competitors were "right" to neglect the riding aspects of their training. Sure the horses can just be replaced with bikes anyway, easy peasy, job done. It's the easy way out and means nobody has to grapple with the hard work of upping the standard and changing the attitudes of some competitors to the riding element. 

This decision is safer though for horses and competitors so I guess I have mixed feelings.


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## Rowreach (3 November 2021)

smolmaus said:



			I was disappointed when I saw the news. In a petty sort of way though. I think this decision just confirms that the sub-standard competitors were "right" to neglect the riding aspects of their training. Sure the horses can just be replaced with bikes anyway, easy peasy, job done. It's the easy way out and means nobody has to grapple with the hard work of upping the standard and changing the attitudes of some competitors to the riding element.

This decision is safer though for horses and competitors so I guess I have mixed feelings.
		
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To me the Olympics should be the pinnacle of sporting excellence (it certainly is in the non-equestrian sport I'm connected with), and MP is like watching car crash tv.  If they all turn out to be useless at cycling, burst into tears and wobble off round the corners, it'll be a bent wheel  and a few cuts and bruises, and no horses having to suffer. All good imo.


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## J&S (3 November 2021)

I am pleased its going to be abandoned at the Olympics.   Presumably PC tetrathlon/pentathlon will remain the same?


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## ycbm (3 November 2021)

Fred66 said:



			Totally disagree. What makes modern pentathlon unique is the combining of equine and sporting prowess. Change it, make it more of mini hunter trial with smaller fences, slip rail and gate, or dressage, make it comply with FEI rules regarding use of whip. Allow them more time to ride the horse the day before, grade competitors riding ability to achieve a minimum qualifying standard.

So many things could have been done to maintain the equestrian element to me it will no longer be MP and they may as well just drop the sport.
		
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Yup,  why didn't they?  Instead there are a stack of YouTube videos showing at best incompetent riding and at worst abusive and year upon year nothing changed.

I think the only region which will be upset about this is the UK, where the sport is grounded in Pony Club.
.


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## tristar (3 November 2021)

thank god we wont be exposed to any more sights of horses like saint boy giving up and basically shutting down with rider incapable of either making a decision to retire or not compete

cause thats horses, the lack of horsemanship of the rider made it 100 times worse

the straw that broke the camels back

humility in the face of another living creature saying no can be dealt with by admitting  defeat and there is no shame in that

its the governing body of MP that has bought this about, by their  failure to see how bad it was, inaction or ignorance, the  saint boy episode was the last straw


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## smolmaus (3 November 2021)

Rowreach said:



			To me the Olympics should be the pinnacle of sporting excellence (it certainly is in the non-equestrian sport I'm connected with), and MP is like watching car crash tv.  If they all turn out to be useless at cycling, burst into tears and wobble off round the corners, it'll be a bent wheel  and a few cuts and bruises, and no horses having to suffer. All good imo.
		
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Absolutely. This is the best decision for horse (and competitor) welfare right now. I just don't think the decision was actually about welfare though, it is the lazy way out where they don't have to do the work to improve or look at the years-long history of NOT considering horse welfare, which is irritating.


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## ester (3 November 2021)

Mule said:



			The German rider started her round already in tears. She got worse at it progressed. It was a disaster that has directly resulted in removal of the equestrian aspect of the sport.

It doesn't seem right for the other competitors to suffer as a result of a poor ride. I think better training would be the answer or perhaps the riders getting more time with their assigned horse before competition.
		
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It wasn't just her though was it, it has been widespread for at least the last 3/4 olympic games and has not improved any in that time.

Most of the alt suggestions I've seen on fb etc would take a lot longer than a SJ round, which given that MP has moved to 1 day (presumably to help keep it an olympic sport) that just isn't feasible.


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## Mule (3 November 2021)

TPO said:



			So this thread started with people wanting horses out of MP and replaced with a different sport. That's happened and now people think it's a shame to have lost it and that the actions  of one competitor and coach shouldn't "ruin" the sport for everyone. I think I've got whiplash
		
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I never said I wanted it out of MP. I did think there needed to be changes to improve horse welfare.


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## Mule (3 November 2021)

ester said:



			It wasn't just her though was it, it has been widespread for at least the last 3/4 olympic games and has not improved any in that time.

Most of the alt suggestions I've seen on fb etc would take a lot longer than a SJ round, which given that MP has moved to 1 day (presumably to help keep it an olympic sport) that just isn't feasible.
		
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True, it's just that round stood out for it's painfullness.


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## Turitea (3 November 2021)

Right decision to replace riding with cycling. About time.


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## YorkshireLady (3 November 2021)

Think it had to happen

however, as I have said previously I think it means horse sport at the Olympics is on borrowed time. sadly.


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## laura_nash (3 November 2021)

TPO said:



			So this thread started with people wanting horses out of MP and replaced with a different sport. That's happened and now people think it's a shame to have lost it and that the actions  of one competitor and coach shouldn't "ruin" the sport for everyone. I think I've got whiplash
		
Click to expand...

I said from the start it would be sad to lose the equine element and I thought a better solution would be an arena trec type course.  That is still my opinion.  I think using bikes instead is much better than carrying on as they were though.

I don't think anyone who originally said they wanted equines out of the sport are now expressing sadness?  So your whiplash comment makes no sense (unless you think we are all fake accounts for one person called "people", which is the only way that comment makes sense to me).


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## teapot (4 November 2021)

Press release is here: https://www.uipmworld.org/news/uipm...placement-riding-discipline-modern-pentathlon

It's not going quite yet.

ETS: struggling to think of a replacement sport that doesn't come under a IOC recognised federation... Squash?


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## conniegirl (4 November 2021)

teapot said:



			Press release is here: https://www.uipmworld.org/news/uipm...placement-riding-discipline-modern-pentathlon

It's not going quite yet.

ETS: struggling to think of a replacement sport that doesn't come under a IOC recognised federation... Squash?
		
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Definitely reads like they are throwing thier toys out of the pram! 
I think FEI have strongly informed them of how they were bringing equestrian sport into disrepute and laid down the law regarding the treatment of horses, hence the requirement that no other IOC be involved


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## teapot (4 November 2021)

conniegirl said:



			Definitely reads like they are throwing thier toys out of the pram!
I think FEI have strongly informed them of how they were bringing equestrian sport into disrepute and laid down the law regarding the treatment of horses, hence the requirement that no other IOC be involved
		
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Yes, 'we don't want to be told how to run the sport'. 

Well that doesn't leave them with much...


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## splashgirl45 (4 November 2021)

they obviously dont know how to run the sport!!!  so best they dont then


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## conniegirl (4 November 2021)

Paragliding??


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## quizzie (4 November 2021)

conniegirl said:



			Paragliding??
		
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...parachuting as the first event....chuck them all out at x-thousand feet....bullseye in the middle of the stadium, and elimination for anyone who misses the stadium!


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## Equi (4 November 2021)

The MP was a bit of a shitshow, a few were very hard to watch as we all saw. Some were okay...no worse than you would see in the local shows. Yes its the olympics but they are not exclusively olympic riders so i would not expect them to ride the same as the SJ/Dr/Ev riders. Some MP riders DO know how to ride and part of the sport is not knowing what horse you will be put on and i think that is one of the issues. The olympic riders know their horses, so they can adapt to that horses way of going so if the MP was to stay i think the riders need to have a session on the horses they draw before the competition plus much much stricter rules more in line with FEI. If that can't be accommodated or is not considered fair in the sport, then im all for horses being pulled from the MP.


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## teapot (4 November 2021)

splashgirl45 said:



			they obviously dont know how to run the sport!!!  so best they dont then
		
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Professionally though 'we've taken on board what the FEI have had to say and these are the changes for Paris' would have done them far more favours. Not 'well sod you, we'll run another sport under our own rules'.


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## ester (4 November 2021)

quizzie said:



			...parachuting as the first event....chuck them all out at x-thousand feet....bullseye in the middle of the stadium, and elimination for anyone who misses the stadium!
		
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Fits the military theme superbly.


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## Tiddlypom (4 November 2021)

The queen could give them some tips on parachuting into an Olympic stadium!


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## shortstuff99 (4 November 2021)

As they want to stay to the roots of a modern soldier, why not Takeshi Castle style rounds followed by a laser shoot in mini tanks (as the calvary is now tanks) 😂


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## fetlock (4 November 2021)

A leaked photo of one of the pentathletes testing out the new prototype bikes for Paris 24.


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## Fred66 (5 November 2021)

If they drop the equine element then it is no longer modern pentathlon but a new sport and as such should be applying to the IOC for inclusion/approval not just assuming that they will be accepted.

Otherwise you leave it open to all sports to change their format without sanctions.


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## stangs (5 November 2021)

fetlock said:



			A leaked photo of one of the pentathletes testing out the new prototype bikes for Paris 24.

View attachment 82173

Click to expand...

Now you’ve got me thinking, why don’t they just use hobby horses? It’s a competitive sport, after all.


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## ycbm (5 November 2021)

stangs said:



			Now you’ve got me thinking, why don’t they just use hobby horses? It’s a competitive sport, after all.
		
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## Winters100 (5 November 2021)

I am pretty glad that they have decided not to use live animals.  It seems to me that having horses ridden by people who do not know them, and have no real responsibility for them, is a huge risk when the stakes are so high.  At some low level competition competitors would probably not mind retiring if it became evident that the horse was not happy, but at Olympic level this is not very likely.  To me this seems to be a good decision.


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## Gingerwitch (5 November 2021)

tristar said:



			thank god we wont be exposed to any more sights of horses like saint boy giving up and basically shutting down with rider incapable of either making a decision to retire or not compete

cause thats horses, the lack of horsemanship of the rider made it 100 times worse

the straw that broke the camels back

humility in the face of another living creature saying no can be dealt with by admitting  defeat and there is no shame in that

its the governing body of MP that has bought this about, by their  failure to see how bad it was, inaction or ignorance, the  saint boy episode was the last straw
		
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Does anyone know how the horse is ?


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## nutjob (5 November 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			Does anyone know how the horse is ?
		
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The last thing I saw on UIPM the horse was being ridden and looked lame, but this was shortly after the olympics not recently.  UIPM posted words to the effect that the horse was fine .


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## tristar (8 November 2021)

Gingerwitch said:



			Does anyone know how the horse is ?
		
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i was wondering the same


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## Xmas lucky (16 November 2021)

What the German girl done was awful.  The problem is a lot of people will try and get horses out of the olympics in general. It could ruin that whole equestrian sport get horse banned permanently.


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## shortstuff99 (7 December 2021)

Article from H and H here https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/new...und&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social

Some federations have gone to CAS to have the riding reinstated.


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## AFishOutOfWater (7 December 2021)

And poor Saint Boy seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth


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## MagicMelon (8 December 2021)

Xmas lucky said:



			What the German girl done was awful.  The problem is a lot of people will try and get horses out of the olympics in general. It could ruin that whole equestrian sport get horse banned permanently.
		
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True. However the other equestrian sports are sports in their own right. They'd be far harder to be got rid of. Especially as the Olympics included an equestrian element very early on in its history. They will however need to seriously up their welfare regulations IMO. So much nastiness still going on in all disiplines. I think they need to make quite a few changes, IMO the eventing dressage was far more enjoyable to watch than the pure dressage which to my untrained eye looks so damn uncomfortable for the horse. My OH refuses to watch pure high level dressage, hes from a horsey family too so I can only imagine what it looks like to unhorsey public. Eventing IMO needs the XC to be back to how it used to be - less technical, and more big beefy fences again. Surely there's more falls nowadays compared to before?

With regard this matter though I totally support the decision. What we watched was absolutely disgusting throughout, it wasnt just the German girl - 90% of them were terrible and those horses were being harmed. If that was top level of the sport then I cant imagine how bad it was at the lower levels. It had to be stopped.


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## Cutgrass (8 December 2021)

Slow.sleighbells said:



			And poor Saint Boy seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth
		
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I keep wondering what's happened to him. Poor lad.


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## milliepops (8 December 2021)

I expect he went back to his normal life, it wasn't like he was a condemned horse.  We don't get updates on any other horses used for pentathlon so I never understood why people were so suspicious about where he went etc.


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## teapot (8 December 2021)

Slow.sleighbells said:



			And poor Saint Boy seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth
		
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Cutgrass said:



			I keep wondering what's happened to him. Poor lad.
		
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In all honesty, he's privately owned and/or by a Japense jockey club of sorts, why would he be in the public eye?


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## Cutgrass (8 December 2021)

milliepops said:



			I expect he went back to his normal life, it wasn't like he was a condemned horse.  We don't get updates on any other horses used for pentathlon so I never understood why people were so suspicious about where he went etc.
		
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teapot said:



			In all honesty, he's privately owned and/or by a Japense jockey club of sorts, why would he be in the public eye?
		
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I wouldn't expect a modern pentathlon horse to be in the public eye, but after what happened people from around the world enquired about his welfare. Pretty understandable. Then the picture that was put out looked like either an old photo or a different horse, hence people found that strange and are still wondering.


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## stangs (8 December 2021)

I very much doubt his owners/riders want him in the public eye after the controversy. Not to mention, even if they’re posting pictures of him regularly, they’re probably doing so in Japanese and how many people here are regularly on Line or the Japanese side of Twitter etc.


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## AFishOutOfWater (8 December 2021)

I should clarify, I don't think he will have been euthanased or anything like that, but I do think it's a bit off that nowhere ever posted a believable update on his welfare given how many around the world were concerned about him.


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## teapot (8 December 2021)

Slow.sleighbells said:



			I should clarify, I don't think he will have been euthanased or anything like that, but I do think it's a bit off that nowhere ever posted a believable update on his welfare given how many around the world were concerned about him.
		
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Did you not see the post on here that linked to him being ridden at home? It's buried in this thread.


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## AFishOutOfWater (8 December 2021)

I know there was a post of a horse purported to be him released not long after the pentathlon itself but don't recall any mention of his being ridden, no.


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## teapot (8 December 2021)

Slow.sleighbells said:



			I know there was a post of a horse purported to be him released not long after the pentathlon itself but don't recall any mention of his being ridden, no.
		
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Buried at the very bottom of this piece is a link to photos and videos of Saint Boy, which were then discussed on this thread  

https://www.uipmworld.org/news/uipm...c5o6gJsUG8EatmtqjTZ_5UglF8lTLm0H76WVxtn8Ye8bM


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## cold_feet (2 May 2022)

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...tm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&CMP=GTUK_email

Athletes not happy with plans for change to MP.


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## cauda equina (2 May 2022)

I don't blame them.
What on earth is obstacle course racing? Why not a sack race, or egg and spoon


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## milliepops (2 May 2022)

I had visions of a total wipeout type course which would be quite fun! but wikipedia has put me right.
i find this a bit of a weird move by UIPM.  I think they could have driven improvements in the riding part by increasing penalties etc as previously discussed. making a bad ride put you out of contention early on and aligning with FEI on welfare of the horse etc could have been quite transformative.


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