# Barefoot cruelty



## FairyLights (15 October 2012)

I know this thread may prove controversial but here goes.
From my experience it seems to me that there are some people who have barefoot horses just because they "think" its better, with no proper evidence, and/or because its not conventional. 
For example a local woman has 2 barefoot horses, she is a trimmer too. I rode one of her horses recently and it was "footy" on the forest tracks which are a tad stoney. She chooses to ignore this and says hes ok. Her horses also suffer from abscesses sometimes. I seem to hear of more and more barefoot horses having abscesses including an endurance horse I know of which was PTS because of them. The owners/riders choose not to try shoes at all but insist barefoot is the only way.
This does not appear to be in the best interests of the horse.
I have both shod and unshod horses, whether or not they need shoes depends on the work done and the terrain. No way would any of mine do the amount of work I require of them on the roads without shoes.
A local riding school has all shioeless because they only go on grass and in a rubber surface manage, they simply dont need shoes. 
With some people common sense has gone out of the window. Its time the whole barefoot issue was properly addressed by vets and farriers and barefoot trimmers made to do a proper 3 year course with the farriery collages. too many horses are being made to suffer from barefoot evangelists.


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## Django Pony (15 October 2012)

*opens popcorn and settles back to watch the onslaught.....*


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## Amymay (15 October 2012)

I agree about regulation and training.

However, none of that will prevent situations like you describe In the first part of your post.


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## Shysmum (15 October 2012)

OMG, here we go.......


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## Natch (15 October 2012)

The problem with making claims like the ones in your post, is that you risk looking foolish if you are making similar mistakes.

It isn't only barefoot horses who get abcesses, not by a long shot. It is perfectly possible for horses to work hard and long on the roads without shoes, either by proper conditioning of the feet or use of hoof boots. Shod horses can also be footy on stones.


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## Pale Rider (15 October 2012)

I agree that you have to use common sense. Horses hooves constantly alter when barefoot, and there are times when you need to use boots.
Basically, I feel the advantages overall to the horse are better barefoot, as shoes just cover up a multitude of sins.
If you are going barefoot though, you have to be aware of the day to day changes in the feet.
As far as 3 year training goes, not everyone is such a slow learner, a good course or two with a knowledgeable trainer and the realization that there is always more to learn is probably best.
Farriery is a black art, and average farriers credited with a lot they don't deserve.


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## thatsmygirl (15 October 2012)

So what about all the horses crippled by shoes ? Is that not cruel? 
My lad was on box rest and bute but still couldn't walk in his shoes but now he's bare he's back in work. 

I agree if the horse is sore he needs boots if the owner don't want to shoe and shouldn't be left sore but if it was me I would want to know why he's sore not just wack on some shoes and cover up a problem. 

I think a lot of people need to do their research to understand how they can help their horse cope. Diet , enviroment, stimulation has a lot to do with it.

I know a lame horse which bar shoes, wedges etc none of it is working and he's still in pain but the owner will not take the shoes off. I may be given him


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## Oberon (15 October 2012)

Horsesforever1 said:



			From my experience
		
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And that's the basic crux of your argument .


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## cornbrodolly (15 October 2012)

OP- at last some common sense. What you say is absolutely true . I ve seen various horses lame all the time  and the barefoot excuse is that thry are 'getting used to it and much better than they were'.  Rubbish - they are in pain! not every horse will grow a foot like a mustang - any faulty feet in wild horses means a meal for a predator.Yet the barefooters think every horse will be perfect if trimmed . Ah yes, 'trimmed' , by a person who has done a few weekends with the latest barefoot guru . If you do go barefoot at lerast do it through a trained farrier , whose 6 years and more training is somewhat more educated than a trimmmer [ yet trimmers charge as much!?]
I mean really - what came first - sore horses or farriers? Farriers prevent horses getting worn away feet when in a decent amount of work.
If your horse is in light wotrk then fair enough. But dont get me started on the endurance people whose horses after a competition have to be turned away for weeks because they are so sore....
Also, as barefoot is so much better for humans [ at least horses get shoes that are fitted, unlike us!] why are these barefoot taliban stood in nice comfy boots them selves?


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## Pale Rider (15 October 2012)

cornbrodolly

OP- at last some common sense. What you say is absolutely true . I ve seen various horses lame all the time and the barefoot excuse is that thry are 'getting used to it and much better than they were'. Rubbish - they are in pain! not every horse will grow a foot like a mustang - any faulty feet in wild horses means a meal for a predator.Yet the barefooters think every horse will be perfect if trimmed . Ah yes, 'trimmed' , by a person who has done a few weekends with the latest barefoot guru . If you do go barefoot at lerast do it through a trained farrier , whose 6 years and more training is somewhat more educated than a trimmmer [ yet trimmers charge as much!?] I mean really - what came first - sore horses or farriers? Farriers prevent horses getting worn away feet when in a decent amount of work. If your horse is in light wotrk then fair enough. But dont get me started on the endurance people whose horses after a competition have to be turned away for weeks because they are so sore.... Also, as barefoot is so much better for humans [ at least horses get shoes that are fitted, unlike us!] why are these barefoot taliban stood in nice comfy boots them selves?

Tosh, lol.


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## Maesfen (15 October 2012)

I agree with OP.


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## Zeehorse (15 October 2012)

Really?  is barefoot riding THAT controversial here?  I totally agree with the OP.  Horses should be kept barefoot only if they can do so comfortably.
Some horses, by breeding or occupation, need the support of shoes.

For those that say horses never wore shoes for millenia,in the wild, well, the horse of today is not anything like the one of millenia past.  We have bred out much of the hoof's toughness, and today's horses are MUCH larger than those of the past.

The draft x I ride has large, pancake feet.  He is ok barefoot in the winter when the ground is soft, but in the summer, he needs the support of front shoes.  If I were to keep him barefoot 'cause it's "cool" it would mean not riding him much.  I don't pay for his upkeep to NOT ride him.


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## ribbons (15 October 2012)

I had genuine barefoot questions, I didn't know enough. I came here with my queries and got the hell back out sharpish. I got the impression barefoot enthusiasts were only interested in telling me in no uncertain terms that I was an idiot and their way was the only way. (actually to be fair not everyone but mostly) I was interested so I made enquireries elsewhere and did find excellent help and advice from some lovely people who were interested in advising me rather than dictating. 
This is a very scary and unpleasant place to discuss barefoot issues. Unless you are a spectator, as shown by the chairs being pulled up and the popcorn opened.


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## Littlelegs (15 October 2012)

I know an idiot with a crippled, barefoot horse. I also know an idiot with a crippled shod horse. The problem isn't with the method both have chosen, its the fact they haven't gone about it properly. The problem is idiots, not method. 
  I also know horses that live out 24/7 who are not happy because its done badly. That doesn't justify all turnout being bad, just that the owner's a moron. It applies to most stuff, barefoot is no different.


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## LittleBurd83 (15 October 2012)

I tend to agree that the training should be longer, there is so much to learn and whilst a few weekends may train you to trim feet to a certain degree, it is much more involved than that. 
I think people are asking for trouble letting someone who has done a short course in trimming anywhere near their horses feet. I have seen and heard some horror stories! Some farriers may not be any better but that is why you should use a trusted farrier with recommendations, problems may still happen but at least you've done everything you can to avoid it. It's not like barefoot trimmers cost any less...


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## Slightlyconfused (15 October 2012)

Erm.....my lami has just gone barefoot, tho I prefer shoeless, due to him having a very bad abcess that burst out of three places. He had no hoof to put a shoe back on( yes he was shod when he had the abcess) so vet said boot him up and let him grow a good hoof and we will see how he goes. We are giving him a good four ish months before we think about shoing again that that's a maybe. He has had sore days as he has loads of bruising coming out but he still gets chucked out and when he has been sound for a week he will be getting ridden again

My two mares have also just gone shoeless, they kept pulling shoes and it was going to ruin their feet, so choice was made by both farrier and I that it would be best to just take them off. Yes they are going to be sore over the stones, only the one with flat feet is actually, but they will harden up. After a few weeks the footy one walked over stones yesterday without looking footy so it's getting better. 

It's not up to you to tell someone that one way is bad, each horse is different and will cope in their own way.


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## Slightlyconfused (15 October 2012)

Just saw little legs post...,.agree with her.


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## Pale Rider (15 October 2012)

littlelegs

I know an idiot with a crippled, barefoot horse. I also know an idiot with a crippled shod horse. The problem isn't with the method both have chosen, its the fact they haven't gone about it properly. The problem is idiots, not method. I also know horses that live out 24/7 who are not happy because its done badly. That doesn't justify all turnout being bad, just that the owner's a moron. It applies to most stuff, barefoot is no different.

Love this post.


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## JingleTingle (15 October 2012)

ribbons said:



			I had genuine barefoot questions, I didn't know enough. I came here with my queries and got the hell back out sharpish. I got the impression barefoot enthusiasts were only interested in telling me in no uncertain terms that I was an idiot and their way was the only way. (actually to be fair not everyone but mostly) I was interested so I made enquireries elsewhere and did find excellent help and advice from some lovely people who were interested in advising me rather than dictating. 
This is a very scary and unpleasant place to discuss barefoot issues. Unless you are a spectator, as shown by the chairs being pulled up and the popcorn opened.
		
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Exactly this! I have now gone 'elsewhere' to get more information that I needed to make my decision to take my horse shoeless. Thanks to some calm, sensible, non judgemental but very experienced barefooter's help and guidance on other forums, I will be taking the plunge this weekend. But if after a fair trial it doesn't work I will not hesitate to put shoes back on. But I won't be posting on here about it!


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## Zeehorse (15 October 2012)

So,  it sounds like this topic is one that looses the rabid pack?
I am sure it is a matter of doing it correctly and not being an idiot.  But, there is a certain attiude amoungst barefoot enthusiasts , a certain 'holier than thou" attitude that can make a person who prefers shoes feel like they're not "enlightened".


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## FionaM12 (15 October 2012)

ribbons said:



			I had genuine barefoot questions, I didn't know enough. I came here with my queries and got the hell back out sharpish. I got the impression barefoot enthusiasts were only interested in telling me in no uncertain terms that I was an idiot and their way was the only way. (actually to be fair not everyone but mostly)
		
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grumpyoldmare said:



			Exactly this! I have now gone 'elsewhere' to get more information that I needed to make my decision to take my horse shoeless. Thanks to some calm, sensible, non judgemental but very experienced barefooter's help and guidance on other forums, I will be taking the plunge this weekend. But if after a fair trial it doesn't work I will not hesitate to put shoes back on. But I won't be posting on here about it!

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I've actually never seen any of this bad behaviour by barefoot zealots here.  Have you got the link to the thread where people were telling you you're an idiot ribbons?


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## true dragon (15 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			I know an idiot with a crippled, barefoot horse. I also know an idiot with a crippled shod horse. The problem isn't with the method both have chosen, its the fact they haven't gone about it properly. The problem is idiots, not method. 
  I also know horses that live out 24/7 who are not happy because its done badly. That doesn't justify all turnout being bad, just that the owner's a moron. It applies to most stuff, barefoot is no different.
		
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exactly!!!!


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## Shysmum (15 October 2012)

hahaha, there are so many, many, many posts on here along the same track on here now - done to death.....the same argument. PAGES of the exact same stuff.  Do a search, and you'll find them


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## Wagtail (15 October 2012)

The problem is that modern horses have been bred for athletic performance IN SHOES. Little attention is paid by breeders to hoof conformation and strength. In an ideal world all horses would be barefoot. I believe it is far better for them to be as nature intended and I see all kinds of problems such as under run heels and negative pedal bone rotation cause by shoeing. (Not all of it poor shoeing). However, we must also realise that there are some horses that just cannot cope without shoes. To persevere for years with these horses, is cruel IMO. And IME such horses DO get more abscesses than shod horses, no doubt about it. My two horses are barefoot. My thin soled, flat footed TB has boots on if I work him. My mare sadly after two years absolutely sound barefoot has had her feet (hopefully temporarily) ruined by laminitis. She is now in imprints (glue on shoes) and as sound as a pound.


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## tallyho! (15 October 2012)

So what? Report it then if you think it's cruel. That is what WHW and the BHS get my money for. If you think something is cruel, tell someone who cares.


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## stencilface (15 October 2012)

I've just taken the hind shoes off mine as a physio commented that his heels looked tight, and coudl be causing the tendon/ligament issues I have been having.  He has wonky back heels, so I've taken his shoes off for 6 weeks to see if his feet will spread at all and whether he becomes more comfortable.  My farrier was a bit put out tbh, and couldn't see how it would make a difference, still nothing ventured and all that.  I will be reviewing on a daily basis, and prepared for a bit of initial footiness, however if it persists I wil have the farrier out sooner and get some shoes back on.


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## Amymay (15 October 2012)

Perfectly put littlelegs.


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## claribella (15 October 2012)

Lol! Tally ho!
I think like most things, if you've not been through the process and tried it then you can't make a judgement really. 
I also think that you can't change someone's opinion really unless they have a tiny crack in the door. I learnt a long time ago to do what I think and hope is best for my horse and not try to put it on anyone else. If they ask then I will tell but I won't get into Back and forths because if there mind is made up then I sure as hell ain't going to change it. I think you will generally find that most people are just trying to do their best that's all. My new yard owner had the very same opinion as you when we arrived on her yard and she saw how footy my horse on stones as we never really encountered them. She's slowly conditioning her feet to the change and I'm Pretty sure my yard owners opinion will change when she sees her rock crunchers when she's transitioned and conditioned thoughroughly.


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## ridefast (15 October 2012)

It's not so much barefoot cruelty but uneducated people cruelty. If that's such a big problem it's not hard to research qualifications so you can quite easily find out who has trained for however many years.
Personally I do believe that every horse can be happy barefoot, however I also know how much time and attention to detail it needs to keep a horse happy barefoot, which not everyone can/will do. It's always best to make up your own idea though without being influenced by biased view points, or bad practices.


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## Partridg3 (15 October 2012)

I prefer my horses unshod, but one is shod as it suits us all better...however I do owe it to him to learn about foot balance and diet and how it affects him in order to ensure the shoes are fitted to a heathy well shaped foot. I've no objection to either method if everything is done right but I've seen more bad examples of shoeing than trimming....


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## ribbons (15 October 2012)

Sorry not clever enough to do links and things. My post was a query about unridden brood mare. Because I didn't initially get any response from barefoot people I assumed there was nothing I could change. Then I got a full onslaught about refusing to listen to those who know best etc etc. To be honest my comments were being twisted and not read accurately. It was just a complete rant at me accusing me of listening to the 
wrong people (others who had responded to my queries earlier in the thread) talk about arrogant patronising attitude. Thankfully I have now had some super help for my mare, who was never going to be shod and is now showing improvement. Had I owned a shod ridden horse thinking of going barefoot the experience here would gave closed that door for me.


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## Oberon (15 October 2012)

ribbons said:



			Sorry not clever enough to do links and things. My post was a query about unridden brood mare. Because I didn't initially get any response from barefoot people I assumed there was nothing I could change. Then I got a full onslaught about refusing to listen to those who know best etc etc. To be honest my comments were being twisted and not read accurately. It was just a complete rant at me accusing me of listening to the 
wrong people (others who had responded to my queries earlier in the thread) talk about arrogant patronising attitude. Thankfully I have now had some super help for my mare, who was never going to be shod and is now showing improvement. Had I owned a shod ridden horse thinking of going barefoot the experience here would gave closed that door for me.
		
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Here is the thread for you.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=560381

FWIW - I never really got involved in that thread because I was; 

a) working nights and not on the forum at the time.

b) not confident in advising on brood mares as I have no experience in them or their needs


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## Natch (15 October 2012)

cornbrodolly said:



			Ah yes, 'trimmed' , by a person who has done a few weekends with the latest barefoot guru . 

But dont get me started on the endurance people whose horses after a competition have to be turned away for weeks because they are so sore....

Also, as barefoot is so much better for humans [ at least horses get shoes that are fitted, unlike us!] why are these barefoot taliban stood in nice comfy boots them selves?
		
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I'd like to see your evidence for these points, as in my experience your posts do not represent the majority of barefoot horses and their owners


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## Equilibrium Ireland (15 October 2012)

Well first and foremost my highly trained farrier suggested getting my horses out of shoes ASAP for a break. Actually he's been at me since he took over my shoeing 1 1/2 years ago. And longer with my jumping mare. I was the one saying no way. My horses are 100% on concrete and the arena. On stony ground they are careful but not crippled. The interesting thing is they were always careful of stoney ground with shoes too. Unless I had the pour in pads on. But being 100% sound on concrete tells me that the back of their foot is starting to do it's job properly. 

One of the reasons my farrier suggested bare for a bit is because the only way forward for her were pads and wedges. I was not going that route and farrier agreed. 

I have also not found people holier than thou on here nor people like Nic from Rockley. Far from it. All have said try it and know you can always go back to shoes. Any so called holier than thou could have come from the fact that I was quite obnoxious in telling them they were wrong! I have apologised for being quite rude. 

I'm planning on sticking with this as long as my horses are comfortable. I won't let them be miserable but I'm not seeing that. They didn't look to unhappy galloping up the torn up (with stones) field today. Bucking and going mad. With shoes on I'm sure someone would have lost a shoe. 

And FWIW, I watched an absolutely gorgeous mare succumb to laminitis this year. Seems when she started going footy this year a blacksmith slapped on shoes. This was in the spring. She was better for a bit and 8 weeks later she was dead. That farrier has a lot to answer for. He had to know. 

Terri


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## Amymay (15 October 2012)

EI, surely It's the owners who have a lot to answer for?


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## ester (15 October 2012)

ribbons said:



			I had genuine barefoot questions, I didn't know enough. I came here with my queries and got the hell back out sharpish. I got the impression barefoot enthusiasts were only interested in telling me in no uncertain terms that I was an idiot and their way was the only way. (actually to be fair not everyone but mostly) I was interested so I made enquireries elsewhere and did find excellent help and advice from some lovely people who were interested in advising me rather than dictating. 
This is a very scary and unpleasant place to discuss barefoot issues. Unless you are a spectator, as shown by the chairs being pulled up and the popcorn opened.
		
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grumpyoldmare said:



			Exactly this! I have now gone 'elsewhere' to get more information that I needed to make my decision to take my horse shoeless. Thanks to some calm, sensible, non judgemental but very experienced barefooter's help and guidance on other forums, I will be taking the plunge this weekend. But if after a fair trial it doesn't work I will not hesitate to put shoes back on. But I won't be posting on here about it!

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whereas it was due to reading posts on here (albeit not asking direct questions on the board) and some very helpful input via pm by people in here that I decided to give it a go, because if it didn't work after fair trial the horse would be retiring so wouldn't have shoes on anyway in all probability. 

In march I had a lame horse facing retirement. 
I now have a sound horse who is hacking out and more recently schooling happily and in part that is down to this forum.

It has all been done sensibly though, with plenty of patience, boots as required and with for the most part a reduced work load.


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## DragonSlayer (15 October 2012)

I use a farrier.

My farrier is from another european country and therefore had to study all over again to get a licence here.

I won't let another person touch my horses feet. Some are barefoot, some are shod, depends on the horse and the work I'm doing.

One horse came back from loan crippled with an abcess as the vet had mis-diagnosed, the first time the abcess appeared it was not cleared up, then it came back and it took 6 months of hard work by the farrier and us to get him sound again. Everyday, rain or shine, he was stood in a bucket of hot water with salt (I could have shares in a salt company now!) and although loads of other people, whose opinions were not asked for...told me to use all sorts of lotions and potions, we used the good old fashioned remedy and that sorted him out. 

My horse had to grow a new frog as the other simply disappeared....AND (horror of horrors) a shoe was put on to help support the rest of the foot, our farrier was meticulous at making sure his foot was level, and all the bits of the foot that needed to be in contact with the ground were in contact with the ground. Recovery for the foot after that was swift.

We got a bit worried, thought if might be the end for him, but I believed in the professional I was paying to sort him out and he did. 

There are good and bad eggs in all professions, and if you find one, then stick with them, but I still believe in training, experience and qualifications.

...and people using angle grinders on horses feet...there is another argument....


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## ribbons (15 October 2012)

Thank you Oberon, I am a techno numpty.  Although I can't imagine why any one would wish to read it again. It was a totally unproductive thread.


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## FionaM12 (15 October 2012)

Oberon said:



			Here is the thread for you.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=560381

FWIW - I never really got involved in that thread because I was; 

a) working nights and not on the forum at the time.

b) not confident in advising on brood mares as I have no experience in them or their needs 

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Thanks, Oberon. I actually don't think anyone was calling the OP stupid on that thread, just giving advice, which was asked for.

I can see the OP got very defensive and angry though, and I rather suspect this thread is the result of that anger.


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## FionaM12 (15 October 2012)

ribbons said:



			Thank you Oberon, I am a techno numpty.  Although I can't imagine why any one would wish to read it again. It was a totally unproductive thread.
		
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It seemed relevant as I'd missed it at the time and you referred to it here. Yes I can see CPT's advice was quite direct, but I didn't think it was offensive.


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## Littlelegs (15 October 2012)

Lol dragonslayer, well known fact that every barefoot horse is trimmed with an angle grinder & random power tools.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (15 October 2012)

Yes and owners. They already got my wrath, but BS said nothing to worry about she's just the type that needs shoes. It's clear it was much more. 

I don't know really. For now things are working. But shoes or no shoes people really ought to pay more attention to what's in a bag of feed, grazing, and any intolerances a horse may have. It will always present in feet. That much was apparent to me before I went bare. I haven't used commercial feeds for ages now. 

Anyway, we can only do best by our horses. 

Terri


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## Amymay (15 October 2012)

Ribbons, I thought the post was very informative. It only got heated after you decided pretty early to discount any advice given to you, and deciding you had nothing to learn.

You may not like her style, but I can see why cptrayes got so cross.


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## millimoo (15 October 2012)

Horses for courses... Our ridden horses are shod.
Never been unsound, and never in 16 years have we had any absesses. The Shetland pony is barefoot, and always has been - apart from 16 years ago wh he was on loan and doind alot of roadwork so had shoes in front. Funnily enough he's the one who's had absesses when barefoot. 
I truly believe there is a place for both, however I object to the backhanded comments about the higher level of time and care required nutrition wise to manage a barefoot horse. 
I have seen bad farriers cripple horses, and have seen horses who need something more that a naked hoof.
At the end of the day, I have to ask, what is natural about apumping a horse full of supplements and dedicated types of feed to promote good horn growth??? Equally, the minute you add a rider and tack, you are not dealing with 'how nature intended', so the natural arguement is floored if you are sitting on the barefoot horse.
There are no rights and wrongs, and I truly believe barefoot has helped many, but to call barefoot natural is a load of tosh - and yes, there should be a much better accreditation scheme, and also stronger punishment for bad farriers too.
I feel very fortunate that we have a fantastic farrier.

Dons tin hat, and digs in with popcorn at the ready


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## brucea (15 October 2012)

I don't respond to barefoot posts on here any more as a rule - especially ones as emotively and prejudicially worded as this one - unless I believe the OP is genuinely looking for help.

There are less hostile places than HHO to get help if you are genuinely looking for barefoot help. 

PM me or Oberon if you want to know where to go and we can direct you - but I am one of the admins of the other "place" so fair warning that I won't tolerate posts of the tone of the OP's posts that seek to criticise barefoot horses, trained trimmers, their owners or other hoof care professionals in a non-constructive way. 

Those of us who have been deeply involved in "barefoot" as it is called, know that barefoot alone is not always the answer, there are many interrelated aspects to the horse's health, and the welfare of the horse has to come first, beyond any dogma - whether that is pro or anti-shoeing dogma. 

Many serious barefooters are happy with their trimmers, happy with their farriers, and some have had very bad experiences of both trimmers and farriers. We'll not go into the angle grinder discussion - that's a very special person.  

The farrier vs trimmer argument is old news and not welcome any more, bringing it up is simply means that the poster is trotting out the argument. Worse, it is highly disrespectful to the organisations who have invested their own time and money in developing training syllabi, worked with Lantra to develop occupational standards and offer a program of structured training. 

Both farriers and trimmers have valuable professional input to make, and it it the horse owner's responsibility to ensure that ALL professionals engaged in the care of their horses are doing the very best for the horse. The ability to reason, observe, make good decisions - this is not something the horse owner can delegate or abdicate from.


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## amandaco2 (15 October 2012)

Well this has been amusing.....


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## Cortez (15 October 2012)

I have seen horses hobbling around for weeks, with owners merrily commenting on their "transitioning" horses. I would simply call them lame horses. And I have seen many people called stupid, and thick, who came on here, asked questions about the barefoot phenomenon and had the temerity to disagree. Being zealous and "right" in your own mind does not give anyone a license to be downright rude. Many barefooters do their cause no good at all with their attitudes.


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## 3BayGeldings (15 October 2012)

deleted


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## JingleTingle (15 October 2012)

FionaM12 said:



			It seemed relevant as I'd missed it at the time and you referred to it here. Yes I can see CPT's advice was quite direct, but I didn't think it was offensive.
		
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I have to disagree, I remember this thread well as it was part of my barefoot research. I don't think CPT's advice was offensive, but I am rarely offended as I do have quite a tough old hide. However, IMO,  she was far more than direct, she was arrogant and her tone was patronising. 

Not a helpful attitude to have when offering advice to someone on ANY aspect of horse care, but there you go, I am sure that CPT has all the knowledge, but sadly the bedside manner leaves a lot to be desired and does not help to spread the word really does it?


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## ester (15 October 2012)

Whereas I have had a lot of helpful advice from CP in particular.. and she didn't berate me when I put bar shoes on in the first instance either .


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## Holly Hocks (15 October 2012)

I agree with Ester - it was as a result of reading info on here and the "other" forum of which I'm a member that I decided to give barefoot a go - I would have had a field ornament or dead horse if not.  I had PMs with Oberon and CPT and had lots of good advice.  But I'm not saying I would not shoe - my old TB who I lost last year could never ever go without front shoes - any diet, conditioning etc did not help him.  He just couldn't do it.   My current one is great without shoes, and as previously stated would have been a field ornament otherwise - but I have boots for if she gets footy.  Surely as an owner it's your responsibility to do the best for your horse whether that's to shoe or not. I'm sure there are plenty of shod horses out there which would be just as happy without shoes and some out there without shoes which would benefit from being fitted with them!


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## millimoo (15 October 2012)

Good post Holly Hocks


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## Dolcé (15 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			I know an idiot with a crippled, barefoot horse. I also know an idiot with a crippled shod horse. The problem isn't with the method both have chosen, its the fact they haven't gone about it properly. The problem is idiots, not method. 
  I also know horses that live out 24/7 who are not happy because its done badly. That doesn't justify all turnout being bad, just that the owner's a moron. It applies to most stuff, barefoot is no different.
		
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This!  Although I do have a problem with 'barefoot' as opposed to unshod!  We have 14, 13 are unshod and one has fronts on because he simply cannot cope without on any terrain, we tried for over a year and put his shoes back on.  The 5 horses have all been shod at some point, the 8 ponies have never had shoes on in their lives, we took shoes off because we couldn't ride out but they would go back on if we started hacking and they were needed.  We have a farrier, he is brilliant, I used a trimmer in the past, she was good until she nearly blinded my youngster and so wasn't asked back.  It really is down to the owner and their preferences and others should respect their choices rather than attempting to lecture (from both camps!)


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## maisie06 (15 October 2012)

My young gelding is having his first fronts on next week - TBH I don't give a fig what others think, my lad has got to the point of needing shoes so he shall have them. I want him to increase his work now and I'm not happy with boots.


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## Flame_ (15 October 2012)

Boots are the answer! I used to wish and wish someone would invent some horse trainers, giving hoof protection but also shock absorbing and *removable* to save all the issues that often arise with nail on shoes. Yes there have always been crummy boots, but the standard over the last few years has risen so much. I don't think we're at a point yet where boots can replace shoes for most horses doing most jobs, but I hope its just a matter of time. 

However, booted is *not barefoot, its not even unshod*. Its just using shoes which only attach to horses on the outside, not anywhere on the inside AFAIC.


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## Ladyinred (15 October 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			littlelegs

I know an idiot with a crippled, barefoot horse. I also know an idiot with a crippled shod horse. The problem isn't with the method both have chosen, its the fact they haven't gone about it properly. The problem is idiots, not method. I also know horses that live out 24/7 who are not happy because its done badly. That doesn't justify all turnout being bad, just that the owner's a moron. It applies to most stuff, barefoot is no different.

Love this post.
		
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Exactly!!


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## Dolcé (15 October 2012)

Flame_ said:



			Boots are the answer! I used to wish and wish someone would invent some horse trainers, giving hoof protection but also shock absorbing and *removable* to save all the issues that often arise with nail on shoes. Yes there have always been crummy boots, but the standard over the last few years has risen so much. I don't think we're at a point yet where boots can replace shoes for most horses doing most jobs, but I hope its just a matter of time. 

However, booted is *not barefoot, its not even unshod*. Its just using shoes which only attach to horses on the outside, not anywhere on the inside AFAIC.
		
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I agree with this soooo much, it would be the perfect solution for most leisure riders and I am sure would eventually progress to all areas of work.  The day will come I hope where this is the norm!


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## ribbons (15 October 2012)

Sorry I can't quote on phone but FionaM12 after reading the linked thread said....I can see OP got very defensive and angry and I suspect this thread is the result of that anger.
Can I just point out I was the OP of the linked thread. I am NOT the OP of this thread. I have no more connection to it than the comments I have posted. Just thought I'd clear that up as the implication was this thread was my doing as a direct result of my annoyance about my own thread.


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## Wagtail (15 October 2012)

Holly Hocks said:



			But I'm not saying I would not shoe - my old TB who I lost last year could never ever go without front shoes - any diet, conditioning etc did not help him.  He just couldn't do it.   My current one is great without shoes, and as previously stated would have been a field ornament otherwise - but I have boots for if she gets footy.  Surely as an owner it's your responsibility to do the best for your horse whether that's to shoe or not. I'm sure there are plenty of shod horses out there which would be just as happy without shoes and some out there without shoes which would benefit from being fitted with them!
		
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Completely agree. I do not think the opinion that all horses can happily go barefoot is accurate as I do think there are congenital problems with some horse's hooves. To say that there is not a genetic factor is silly. It is the same as saying that there is no genetic predispostion to sickle hocks, long backs, weak pasterns...


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## FairyLights (15 October 2012)

Naturally said:



			The problem with making claims like the ones in your post, is that you risk looking foolish if you are making similar mistakes.

It isn't only barefoot horses who get abcesses, not by a long shot. It is perfectly possible for horses to work hard and long on the roads without shoes, either by proper conditioning of the feet or use of hoof boots. Shod horses can also be footy on stones.
		
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If they are wearing boots they are not barefoot! the foot [hoof if its a horse] isnt bare if wearing a boot. It is obviously in need of protection. Hence the boot.
Or shoe.


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## ester (15 October 2012)

very much different kind of protection though and I think most people use boots as a means to an end, you can take boots off at the end of the day, they don't restrict foot function as much, don't suspend the sole/frog away from weightbearing etc. I fully intend on having my lad bare for all his work eventually, but it would be unfair to expect that of him straight away given that he has likely been shod for the last 15 years. 

My instructor was hugely sceptical.. thought we were pandering/spending too much money/wasting time and should retire him. Then we took him for a lesson this week  

I'm pleased I gave it a go, if he wasn't comfortable either due to not coping with our local surfaces or lame he would have been a happy retiree too though.


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## Flame_ (15 October 2012)

The point is though, boots are why "barefoot" isn't cruel anymore! 

A few years ago "barefoot" was about watching lame horse struggle their way around "transitioning"  which is why so many people are anti. As long as "barefoot" incorporates putting on shoes, all be it removable ones, as and when needed for horses to be comfortable, there's no reason not to support it, is there?


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## Kat (15 October 2012)

It seems to me OP that you have misdirected your post. It has nothing to do with barefoot and should be entitled stupid, ignorant, oblivious owners.


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## Natch (15 October 2012)

Horsesforever1 said:



			If they are wearing boots they are not barefoot! the foot [hoof if its a horse] isnt bare if wearing a boot. It is obviously in need of protection. Hence the boot.
Or shoe. 

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Generally accepted definitions:

Shod horse: one who wears shoes
Unshod horse: one who doesn't wear shoes but is trimmed by the farrier 
Barefoot horse: one who is generally trimmed by someone trained specifically in barefoot trimming, and generally has their diet managed to be low sugar and minerals very balanced.

Barefoot horses (sometimes) wear boots. Shod horses don't (unless they lose a shoe )


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## brucea (15 October 2012)

Flame_ said:



			The point is though, boots are why "barefoot" isn't cruel anymore! 

A few years ago "barefoot" was about watching lame horse struggle their way around "transitioning"  which is why so many people are anti. As long as "barefoot" incorporates putting on shoes, all be it removable ones, as and when needed for horses to be comfortable, there's no reason not to support it, is there?
		
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If a horse is sore and unsound out of shoes - it's sore and unsound IN shoes too -= it's the same hoof - it's simply that the shoes are allowing it to cope with a compromised hoof

That's not a bad thing, and for many horses it is the only feasible answer.


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## Bikerchickone (15 October 2012)

I'm not one of the Barefoot Taliban but I too had lots of brilliant advice on here when my vet suggested my horse should be retired or just do light hacking due to navicular. I sent him to Rockley, where at no point was he hobbling or in pain. I've had him home 4 months and just today got back from a weekend in the New Forest with him. He trotted happily along stony tracks with his shod friend, walked through a Ford in a river and we generally had a wonderful time, which wouldn't have been possible without the advice I was given on here. 

I admit I had my doubts about it when I first read about it, but having met Nic and seen the way the horses going through Rockley respond to her treatment I have no more doubts. I don't do barefoot because it's supposedly natural, I do it because my horse is now sound and comfortable. It's not easy and does have ups and downs but it works for us. 

It's a shame some posters feel they've been spoken to harshly by barefoot Taliban on here but I think some of that comes from the frustration of knowing that things can't change for the horse unless the owner's mindset changes and we're all pretty resistant to change,especially when it comes to an implied feeling that we aren't doing our best for our horses. I got really defensive too but ultimately I have so much to thank all the barefooters on here for. I've just had the most amazing horsey weekend ever which I would not have believed possible back in February this year.


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## Nightmare before Christmas (15 October 2012)

My dissertation may find the answer to this so i am watching with interest


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## FionaM12 (15 October 2012)

ribbons said:



			Sorry I can't quote on phone but FionaM12 after reading the linked thread said....I can see OP got very defensive and angry and I suspect this thread is the result of that anger.
Can I just point out I was the OP of the linked thread. I am NOT the OP of this thread. I have no more connection to it than the comments I have posted. Just thought I'd clear that up as the implication was this thread was my doing as a direct result of my annoyance about my own thread.
		
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I'm very sorry Ribbons, my mistake.


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## SpottyTB (15 October 2012)

Here here! Fantastic post OP completely agree. Oh and to who ever made the ridiculous comment about "not everyone is a slow learner" that just shows your lack of information about the training a farrier has.. Throughout the 4 years training they still learn about trimming and different methods/how to improve - yes there is THAT MUCH to learn.. You can not learn it in a 2 day course! 

I know of 5 horses so far (since June 2011) that have been shot due to people who have come and trimmed them claiming to know how to make them comfortable and able to manage shoeless.. Two had severe abcesses, two with severe laminitis - stress/pain laminitis and one where the pedal bone actually sunk and the horse was crippled - all because they wanted to go barefoot and it was just the "footy process". 

I'm sorry I have no issue with horses not having shoes - trust me my OH's back would last a lot longer if he only trimmed horses! By all means give it ago but two things- for gods sake consider the horses welfare - why let it go hopping lame for 6 months whilst its going through the process, it's neither fair or kind. Two; get someone who's had 4 years training and has a recognised qualification, you may not believe it but farriers shed a lot of blood, swet and tears whilst they train - it's bloody hard and they deserve more credit.


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## ester (15 October 2012)

my horse has not been hopping lame for the last 6 months and there is no reason it would need to be.. 

I agree with previous posters that the OP (and you with the 5 PTS cases) is thinking of bad owners rather than those who barefoot. 

Who is dissing farriers? Mine is still on side (and shoes the other horse) but actually recommended 2 barefoot trimmers to me.. one who has trained (for more than 2 days) and one who hasn't. He is also very interested in our paddock paradise system (as is the dentist  ) and what I am now feeding him.


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## cptrayes (15 October 2012)

SpottyTB can you please explain the mechanism whereby taking the shoes off can result in a weakening of the laminae which allows the pedal bone to sink? 

Having dissected a foot and understanding how laminar attachment works, it does not make sense to me that anyone could cause a sinker by removing shoes. In fact a foot peripherally loaded onto a shoe would normally be under far more pressure to sink than any barefoot foot, which will usually have the frog in contact with the floor and limit sinking even if the laminae are weak.


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## cptrayes (15 October 2012)

SpottyTB said:



			Two; get someone who's had 4 years training and has a recognised qualification, you may not believe it but farriers shed a lot of blood, swet and tears whilst they train - it's bloody hard and they deserve more credit.
		
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But SPottyTB, the four years training includes nothing about how to manage really hardworking barefoot horses unless the Master that the apprentice is training with has some on his books. This is clear from the published syllabus and from number of farriers who trim horses by removing large chunks of frog and often taking sole callous that is absolutely essential to a barefoot horse.

Your man may not, and that's fantastic, but far too many do.


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## brucea (15 October 2012)

Here here! Fantastic post OP completely agree. Oh and to who ever made the ridiculous comment about "not everyone is a slow learner" that just shows your lack of information about the training a farrier has.. Throughout the 4 years training they still learn about trimming and different methods/how to improve - yes there is THAT MUCH to learn.. You can not learn it in a 2 day course!
		
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Here we go again - the same old crap trotted out. Where can you do a 2 day course? Please tell me? Point me to the web site and I may take it. Sounds a hell of a lot easier than the full year the UKNHCP require - feck I've even got to attend courses on saddling and nutrition and physiotherapy with them - that can't be right can it?

Spare me the 2 day argument. It's old and worn and doesn't seriously stand up as credible any more.

(ignore that bloody angle grinder woman - she's an anomaly best not mentioned)

Ask yourself SpottyTB - why are SOME (not all) people abandoning farriers? Because they are seeing their horses fail to improve, get progressively more unsound, get put down.

Ok so there are bad trimmers too. No argument there.

There are great farriers and great trimmers out there. I met both of them this last week,

Back to my original post which is "The horse owner has to take responsibility......"


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## SpottyTB (15 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			But SPottyTB, the four years training includes nothing about how to manage really hardworking barefoot horses unless the Master that the apprentice is training with has some on his books. This is clear from the published syllabus and from number of farriers who trim horses by removing large chunks of frog and often taking sole callous that is absolutely essential to a barefoot horse.

Your man may not, and that's fantastic, but far too many do.
		
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Oh cptrayes - i said my little piece and now i have nothing to add i'm afraid - plus i can't answer your question's.. however i will tell you briefly about a seminar he went to, it was about horses in Australia going barefoot.. basically they are wild, they have wild terrain (none of how they live is managed) they travel hundreds of miles and basically a chap (vet) follows them usually in a helicopter and tracks down there progress. now the point of the seminar was to say that these horses do cope with the hundreds of miles on stoney tracks - without shoes HOWEVER a vast majority went lame/came down because the foot was SO worn it crippled them.. 

(the research showed/proved that even those in the WILD, because of the conditions their in caused problems - such as mechanical laminitis and the foot that predisposed to this condition the most was the foot that looked as if it had been trimmed to go barefoot - but obviously it hadn't as these are wild horses and in the wild these were the horses with the shortest life span. The whole point of the seminar was to get across that "just because it's natural doesn't mean it's right". The other thing to consider if also, where has the research been done for barefoot horses? I believe the vast majority of it was done in America - as barefoot trimming is an american invented trend - my OH is in regular contact with an American farrier (because like i said above/below he is interested in discussion) who said the environmental condition's (weather) cannot be compared to the environmental condition's of the UK. In America he can get up to 4 months of dry which is perfect for barefoot feet where as we're lucky if we get 4 bloody days (que abscesses).

Like i said though, i said my piece - it's the way i see it but i can't change what you and everyone else decides to do, that is your choice . My OH is always up for discussion about keeping a horse without shoes.. in fact my TB x goes without on the back and actually he can get her to go without them all round - but i choice to have her shod in front because of the jumping we do.. She has reasonably good feet and never goes "footy" and he just maintains her feet by doing a lovely normal bog standard working trim.. 

I think the way forward for everyone is to come TOGETHER and discuss training and education so everyone can be happy and also invest money in doing some research into horses going barefoot in this country..  .


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## SpottyTB (15 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			SpottyTB can you please explain the mechanism whereby taking the shoes off can result in a weakening of the laminae which allows the pedal bone to sink? 

Having dissected a foot and understanding how laminar attachment works, it does not make sense to me that anyone could cause a sinker by removing shoes. In fact a foot peripherally loaded onto a shoe would normally be under far more pressure to sink than any barefoot foot, which will usually have the frog in contact with the floor and limit sinking even if the laminae are weak.
		
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Well apparently rolleyes:) the hoof wall at the toe was rolled to bare weight on the sole to create a callus. The sole cannot bare weight without the hoof wall - this was the cause of the sinker. Basically all they know is that the pedal bone dropped because it was trimmed to hard and in the wrong way -  there's a veterinary report on this saying exactly the same and this is the reason he put the poor soul down because his pedal bone sank.. because of the way it had been trimmed (by a barefoot trimmer).


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## Equilibrium Ireland (16 October 2012)

Wait so Barefoot with a BT is cruel. But is it ok if your farrier suggests that bare is the way to go? Because he also believes in the benefits and feels every horse should get a break once at least once a year? 

I've been through 2 jerk Farriers. 1st one liked to trim my young horses and broodmares for length of time. Meaning the shorter the better. Gee wonder why mine have been in shoes since 2. When I'd ask questions, nicely, so I could learn, I'd get handed the rasp. But since I didn't know any better I gave him his God like status. The final straw came when he crippled my heavily pregnant broodmare with a trim. I kept her wrapped for a month and I cried. Had to get the vet out. I admit that once she grew some foot, I had new blacksmith came out and put pads on her with shoes. This guy was alright but I had some concerns the way the feet were going. It's long story. So when my mare went into jumper training I just had the regular farrier of that stable do her feet. Big changes for the better. He was also happy to talk with vets, listen to the owner and to explain why and how things were happening. He is my current farrier. Also the one who suggested we go bare. I trust that he has my horses best interests at heart. So I'm not looking for a trimmer. I don't want to find someone new to trust. 

But if you want to throw all trimmers under the bus, you might want to throw the highly trained Farriers there too that get annoyed you want to take horses out of shoes. Because they also aren't doing their job correctly. If they tell you there is no benifit to getting out of shoes for a bit I'd be suspect. 

And what's with the abcess thing? I'm not having issues. Before shoes came off I had one get a puncture. That's nearly grown out now. Funny thing about that is that a shoe doesn't protect the sole. 

So is it bare people that annoy you because they use trimmers. Do you feel Farriers who recommend bare are useless as well? 

Terri


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## Copperpot (16 October 2012)

Slightly hijacking thread! I have turned my horse out for the winter so see if he comes right next year. 

He will be on all grass, no concrete, stones etc and I want his shoes off to give his feet a rest. Only has 3 on as lost one in field.

Best way to go about it? All off at once? Just backs off to start? When in ridden work if he ever lost a front shoe I wouldn't ride him as he was very uncomfortable with it.


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## claribella (16 October 2012)

copperpot Id look at getting the diet right before taking shoes off. Low sugar/starch and hi fibre. My girl does well on linseed mixed in fast fibre. Grass is very high in sugar but shouldnt be too much of a problem for you if you arent actually working your horse and the grass looses alot over the winter anyway. Is your horse comfortable on grass when its lost a shoe because if it is then Id be inclined to do all four at once. If its not then just do backs first. Im not the most knowledgable barefooter, oberon is the one to speak to and cptrayes. Maybe set up your own thread or read back through some barefoot threads on here so you can get as clued up as poss.


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## Goldenstar (16 October 2012)

Well more of the usual .
You see sore horses BF you see sore horses shod the longer I have horses BF the less I am interested in the posts on here.
I have no interest in letting a farrier trim my horses feet as it was farriers that drove me to take the shoes off. There are great trimmers great farriers and lots of the other sort of each
The length of farriers training does not stop them laming horses by the skip load they have a problem with the training I see badly shod horses everywhere they need to address it.
The trimming organiseations need to get everything put on a good footing .
I have shod and unshod horses and while getting horses genuinely working hard BF is not a doddle it can be done and the visible differences in their heels and digital cushions is enough for me to work at getting it right.
I have a TB I have had him a year last August he's six and was heading for all those TB issues he has had his shoes off since April the difference is remarkable he's going to completly different shaped feet .
He may go on to be shod again particularly if he goes to a pro but he will feel the benefits of the time I have spent on this ever .
If shod horses feet must have a break ever year this was the old way and we have got out of it at our peril .
The diet that helps BF horses is good for all horse
And boots have made giving horses a break from shoeing much easier.
The senestive feet that BF horses get on grass or eating sugary foods is happening to all horses you just can't see it that's a good lesson to learn and good gut health is important to all horses too.
There should not be all this yelling over the fence the the other camp I was in the horses need shoes camp until curiousity lead me to try BF to see what happened.


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## WestCoast (16 October 2012)

The fact that I had my horse shoed was once used here as evidence that I mistreat my horse. It's a kind of bullying really. I think some horses do absolutely fine barefoot and it's a good option for them. But it does worry me that it's a cheaper option and so may be used to save money in horses that it doesn't suit. 

My horse came to me with a very sore mouth and slightly sore front feet barefoot. She was literally going "ouch, ouch, ouch" across the stony bits in the yard. I'm on a mostly private yard and the majority of the horses there are barefoot and trimmed by our farrier. He told me mine needed shoes.

I would have left her barefoot if she had been ok, but no way would I use a trimmer. If the farrier didn't do it, I'd find another farrier.  I also got the vet to do her teeth. Farriers and the vetinary profession we're created and regulated to stop the sort of terrible cruelty that happened when some local bloke used to shoe and treat his own and other people's animals. 

Paula


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## cptrayes (16 October 2012)

SpottyTB said:



			I believe the vast majority of it was done in America - as barefoot trimming is an american invented trend - my OH is in regular contact with an American farrier (because like i said above/below he is interested in discussion) who said the environmental condition's (weather) cannot be compared to the environmental condition's of the UK. In America he can get up to 4 months of dry which is perfect for barefoot feet where as we're lucky if we get 4 bloody days (que abscesses).
.
		
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America is a huge place, many parts of which have weather much wetter than ours. It is nonsense to say that horses in this country cannot work barefoot, there are thousands of horses doing it.


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## Tinypony (16 October 2012)

A cheaper option?  Not necessarily.  
I never quite see the point of threads like this.  They seem just set up to try to make people argue with each other.  Bit like Parelli threads really.


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## Daytona (16 October 2012)

My friend insisted on keeping her mare barefoot because "it's was natural" the poor horse tip toed about the place constantly and always seemed to have white line disease ,  after a number of years of me going on at her she put shoes on it, horse is perfectly happy now and has not had white line disease in over 12 months.  Yes ok so the odd little kids pony ok barefoot but a proper horse in work expected to hack out etc along roads needs shoes and I think the way her horse was proved it. To me anyway.


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## touchstone (16 October 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Well more of the usual .
You see sore horses BF you see sore horses shod the longer I have horses BF the less I am interested in the posts on here.
I have no interest in letting a farrier trim my horses feet as it was farriers that drove me to take the shoes off. There are great trimmers great farriers and lots of the other sort of each
The length of farriers training does not stop them laming horses by the skip load they have a problem with the training I see badly shod horses everywhere they need to address it.
The trimming organiseations need to get everything put on a good footing .
I have shod and unshod horses and while getting horses genuinely working hard BF is not a doddle it can be done and the visible differences in their heels and digital cushions is enough for me to work at getting it right.
I have a TB I have had him a year last August he's six and was heading for all those TB issues he has had his shoes off since April the difference is remarkable he's going to completly different shaped feet .
He may go on to be shod again particularly if he goes to a pro but he will feel the benefits of the time I have spent on this ever .
If shod horses feet must have a break ever year this was the old way and we have got out of it at our peril .
The diet that helps BF horses is good for all horse
And boots have made giving horses a break from shoeing much easier.
The senestive feet that BF horses get on grass or eating sugary foods is happening to all horses you just can't see it that's a good lesson to learn and good gut health is important to all horses too.
There should not be all this yelling over the fence the the other camp I was in the horses need shoes camp until curiousity lead me to try BF to see what happened.
		
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I agree with this, time out of shoes was always seen as a way to improve hoof health, nowadays we want our horses performing 365 days a year, and I do think that there is a price for that.  My neighbours horses were continually shod for years, I've never seen such contracted feet.

I think it's a shame that the 'barefoot taliban' are getting bashed for being evangelical, if you've seen a horse saved from deaths door through changing diet and removing shoes it must be difficult not to get frustrated when you see horses who may benefit not being given the chance.  You just have to look at the work done by Rockley to see the benefits.

Of course there are bad trimmers out there, same as there are bad farriers, as owners we need to use our own judgement as to what is improving our horses and what is harming.  As for people who shoe their horse being told that they are harming it, from what I've seen most of the barefoot advocates recommend shoeing if it is in the horses best interests.

I removed the shoes from my mare about 10/12 years ago after being in heartbars.  She has never had an abscess in that time and when the vet was last called he was impressed with how good her feet are and I believe he now works alongside a barefoot trimmer.  She never needs trimming as the work done keeps them right. 

I personally would use a dentist who has trained in equine dentistry rather than a vet who may not have done too.


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## cptrayes (16 October 2012)

SpottyTB said:



			Well apparently rolleyes:) the hoof wall at the toe was rolled to bare weight on the sole to create a callus. The sole cannot bare weight without the hoof wall - this was the cause of the sinker. Basically all they know is that the pedal bone dropped because it was trimmed to hard and in the wrong way -  there's a veterinary report on this saying exactly the same and this is the reason he put the poor soul down because his pedal bone sank.. because of the way it had been trimmed (by a barefoot trimmer).



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The sole can, and does. bear weight without the hoof wall in many barefoot horses with a good toe callous.

What I think you mean is that because the wall was taken above the line of the sole at the toe, this allowed a horse which was _already severely laminitic _to rotate?


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## Bikerchickone (16 October 2012)

Ludoctro I can't quote because I'm on my phone but your statement about only a child's pony being able to go barefoot is completely wrong. My horse is a very heavyweight cob doing miles and miles of roadwork a week. He's more comfortable and free moving than he's been in at least a year because of this change. In my lad's time at Rockley I saw every single horse who passed through there improve without discomfort or pain inflicted on it and I'm still in touch with many of their owners so know that they're continuing to do well, as is my horse. 

We're all trained to think that by listening to the vet and the Farrier we are doing our best for our horses, which is what we all want, but what if, through lack of research and knowledge our wonderful vet and Farrier doesn't know how barefoot can work? My vet is an amazing vet, but he's limited by his training, which tells him a navicular horse needs wedges and shoes. He was against me trying Rockley and barefoot and highly sceptical of Nic, which I don't blame him for since until he spoke to her himself he didn't know what she knew about horses hooves. Ultimately he believed I'd have to reshoe my boy to ride on the roads and I haven't needed to yet. What's interesting is how everyone I ride with is surprised at how he manages stony tracks and difficult ground, as well as how he doesn't slip or slide on the roads. 

We're all trained to believe horses can't work without shoes but that's not true and you can't be surprised that the BT are passionate about changing that.


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## Goldenstar (16 October 2012)

touchstone said:



			I agree with this, time out of shoes was always seen as a way to improve hoof health, nowadays we want our horses performing 365 days a year, and I do think that there is a price for that.  My neighbours horses were continually shod for years, I've never seen such contracted feet.

I think it's a shame that the 'barefoot taliban' are getting bashed for being evangelical, if you've seen a horse saved from deaths door through changing diet and removing shoes it must be difficult not to get frustrated when you see horses who may benefit not being given the chance.  You just have to look at the work done by Rockley to see the benefits.

Of course there are bad trimmers out there, same as there are bad farriers, as owners we need to use our own judgement as to what is improving our horses and what is harming.  As for people who shoe their horse being told that they are harming it, from what I've seen most of the barefoot advocates recommend shoeing if it is in the horses best interests.

I removed the shoes from my mare about 10/12 years ago after being in heartbars.  She has never had an abscess in that time and when the vet was last called he was impressed with how good her feet are and I believe he now works alongside a barefoot trimmer.  She never needs trimming as the work done keeps them right. 

I personally would use a dentist who has trained in equine dentistry rathere than a vet who may not have done too. 

Click to expand...

I aggree that the owners need to learn to take responsiblity for their horses health and particularly feet it's much to easy when a horse is shod to  book the appointment write the chq and sail until something goes wrong.
It's unfair to blame farriers for all shoeing issues when they are shoeing horses on on suitable diets or shod without break.
However I disaggree with you on EDT after one bad experiance and one disaster that left the horse impaired for ever with EDT no one but a dentistry trained vet I trust is going near my horses mouth.


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## tallyho! (16 October 2012)

Well I think if you can't find the info you need on the internet to successfully take your horse barefoot if you want, or shod properly if you want then... you ARE stupid


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## Shysmum (16 October 2012)

ooo I LOVE BF threads !!


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## FfionWinnie (16 October 2012)

Mine are not in hard enough work to justify shoes. They are completely sound on everything except sharp stones, where they are a bit careful. I don't see shoes making any difference to sharp stones and I don't ride on sharp stones.  No special diet although I do notice a difference if on lush grass rather than short grass. Will be trying micronised linseed for one with mud fever. None of the ponies I rode as a child were shod. 

Don't see why it has to be a big argument. Do what you like for your horse but don't mistreat it.


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## Oberon (16 October 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Well I think if you can't find the info you need on the internet to successfully take your horse barefoot if you want, or shod properly if you want then... you ARE stupid 

Click to expand...

Speaking of which - I am a member of a barefoot horse Yahoo group so I can learn about stuff on an international scale.

I posted a question about pea gravel as I was going to experiment with it this winter......

And I was well and truly patronised by some of the members there 

It was hilarious what they were coming out with to me


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## Goldenstar (16 October 2012)

Ludoctro said:



			My friend insisted on keeping her mare barefoot because "it's was natural" the poor horse tip toed about the place constantly and always seemed to have white line disease ,  after a number of years of me going on at her she put shoes on it, horse is perfectly happy now and has not had white line disease in over 12 months.  Yes ok so the odd little kids pony ok barefoot but a proper horse in work expected to hack out etc along roads needs shoes and I think the way her horse was proved it. To me anyway.
		
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I laughed when I read this I trotted on the road for half an hour yesterday followed by my new and opened mouthed groom who said I had to see that to believe it.


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## touchstone (16 October 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			I aggree that the owners need to learn to take responsiblity for their horses health and particularly feet it's much to easy when a horse is shod to  book the appointment write the chq and sail until something goes wrong.
It's unfair to blame farriers for all shoeing issues when they are shoeing horses on on suitable diets or shod without break.
However I disaggree with you on EDT after one bad experiance and one disaster that left the horse impaired for ever with EDT no one but a dentistry trained vet I trust is going near my horses mouth.
		
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I agree with your post Paula, but it highlights that the opposite can also be true.   It is also unfair to blame trimmers or the barefoot method when the diet issues aren't addressed or the horse is overworked too soon, and to be fair I have seen some horrendous shoeing in my time which can be much more damaging as a permanent fixture to the hoof than a trim that will grow out.  

I have had bad experiences with an EDT and a vet doing dentistry, so much depends on the skill of the individual professional as much as qualifications.

At the end of the day providing we all do our best for our horses and learn as much as we can we then its worth sticking with the professional that we feel is doing the best for your horse whether vet/dentist/trimmer or farrier.


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## ester (16 October 2012)

I don't think n=1 proves anything I'm afraid ludoctro.


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## Goldenstar (16 October 2012)

Paulag said:



			The fact that I had my horse shoed was once used here as evidence that I mistreat my horse. It's a kind of bullying really. I think some horses do absolutely fine barefoot and it's a good option for them. But it does worry me that it's a cheaper option and so may be used to save money in horses that it doesn't suit. 

My horse came to me with a very sore mouth and slightly sore front feet barefoot. She was literally going "ouch, ouch, ouch" across the stony bits in the yard. I'm on a mostly private yard and the majority of the horses there are barefoot and trimmed by our farrier. He told me mine needed shoes.

I would have left her barefoot if she had been ok, but no way would I use a trimmer. If the farrier didn't do it, I'd find another farrier.  I also got the vet to do her teeth. Farriers and the vetinary profession we're created and regulated to stop the sort of terrible cruelty that happened when some local bloke used to shoe and treat his own and other people's animals. 

Paula
		
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I am not saying and have never said that it's wrong to shoe horses I have a shod one myself but I know there are reasons he did not do well BF ( he's a horse who has been very ill in his past and has been on a lot of nasty medication)
However while you you have shod your horse so you can work her if she was here I would be trying to work out why she was not coping with out shoes your horse if I remember rightly is young so should not had  have a huge work load I would be curious in your shoes to work out what was making her feet sore.
The thing is once you have seen a full sized competion type horse working without shoes it makes you really curious about why he can and others can't .
Each horse is different and when you remove the shoes different things happen so you need to learn how to manage it that's where a good trimmer is invaluable.


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## Pale Rider (16 October 2012)

Ludoctro

My friend insisted on keeping her mare barefoot because "it's was natural" the poor horse tip toed about the place constantly and always seemed to have white line disease , after a number of years of me going on at her she put shoes on it, horse is perfectly happy now and has not had white line disease in over 12 months. Yes ok so the odd little kids pony ok barefoot but a proper horse in work expected to hack out etc along roads needs shoes and I think the way her horse was proved it. To me anyway.

A 'proper horse' 

Head, desk, thump. Lol.


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## Pale Rider (16 October 2012)

Goldenstar, has it. All horses are different and different things happen when you take the shoes off. That really is where the skill comes in.
If your horse is not coping with how you are managing barefoot, it's not that the horse won't cope if you get things right for that horse. If you cannot find the key, shoe it.


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## tallyho! (16 October 2012)

Well thats cleared things up... Only UNproper horses can go barefoot/unshod/shoeless (B.U.S.). I always wondered why some could and some couldn't... now I know 

The most difficult questions always have the simplest answers!


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## SpottyTB (16 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			America is a huge place, many parts of which have weather much wetter than ours. It is nonsense to say that horses in this country cannot work barefoot, there are thousands of horses doing it.
		
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I'm not sure i said that horses *COULD NOT* go barefoot - if i had said i wouldn't be keeping my horse shoeless behind and all the way round in the winter (when she's only worked twice a week).. It is possible, some horses cope REALLY well but other's really do not.. and sometimes the horses welfare is slightly over looked - for ex) when the horse is hopping lame walking to the field but it's ok because it's going through the "transition process".. you see my point? 

In response to your other quote (i don't know how to quote twice - my bad) the horse was not already laminitic, it was trimmed by the trimmer and then got mechanical laminitis due to the severity of laminal breakdown the pedal bone sank.


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## Clava (16 October 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Goldenstar, has it. All horses are different and different things happen when you take the shoes off. That really is where the skill comes in.
If your horse is not coping with how you are managing barefoot, it's not that the horse won't cope if you get things right for that horse. If you cannot find the key, shoe it.
		
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Exactly.


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## Scarlett (16 October 2012)

I used to think it was cruel to 'put a horse through' the 'barefoot transition', then I did it with one of mine who's legs and feet were a bit of a mess and who was lame in shoes, it was a learning curve but now I have a sound horse with great feet - and he's a 'proper' horse who competes, schools, xc's, hacks over all terrain and does roadwork *gasp* Who'd have thought it, eh? Now none of mine wear shoes.

The problem with everything is not the actual act itself, it's the people behind it, the people who pull shoes while still feeding sugar rich diets and stuffing their fat ponies full of grass so they hobble over stones are not representative of the true 'Barefoot' people who make calculated, educated decisions regarding the care of their horses with a view to improving the horses wellbeing. Please do not lump us all in together. 

My horse has been lame once after his shoes were pulled and it was when he was trimmed by my farrier, a friends horse had the same thing happen with another farrier, hence we both use a local trimmer who offers support and assistance with our management as well as trimming the feet - I'm sorry but I've yet to meet a farrier who acknowledges that horses can be unshod and be in 'proper' work. Yet funnily enough my vet does....


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## tallyho! (16 October 2012)

I quite like Scarlett's post.


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## Cortez (16 October 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Goldenstar, has it. All horses are different and different things happen when you take the shoes off. That really is where the skill comes in.
If your horse is not coping with how you are managing barefoot, it's not that the horse won't cope if you get things right for that horse. If you cannot find the key, shoe it.
		
Click to expand...

For once, I totally agree with you............


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## Pale Rider (16 October 2012)

SpottyTB said:



			I'm not sure i said that horses *COULD NOT* go barefoot - if i had said i wouldn't be keeping my horse shoeless behind and all the way round in the winter (when she's only worked twice a week).. It is possible, some horses cope REALLY well but other's really do not.. and sometimes the horses welfare is slightly over looked - for ex) when the horse is hopping lame walking to the field but it's ok because it's going through the "transition process".. you see my point? 

In response to your other quote (i don't know how to quote twice - my bad) the horse was not already laminitic, it was trimmed by the trimmer and then got mechanical laminitis due to the severity of laminal breakdown the pedal bone sank.
		
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I don't think its right to pass off a lame horse as going through the transition. The welfare of the horse is paramount in any system. To remove the shoes before providing a proper diet, is getting the transition completely the wrong way round. If a horse is totally sore just taking the shoes off, indicates how bad the feet are and how much damage the shoes are covering up. Hoof boots should always be part of a transition. Don't forget that good feet are not trimmed into existance, its diet and exercise that form good healthy feet.


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## Littlelegs (16 October 2012)

No, no, no, Tallyho & quite a few more of you, you're missing the point. An informative, sensible discussion isn't any good. Far more constructive if we all relate the details of screw ups, use that one experience to form a conclusion, split into two camps & judge each other, preferably with accusations of bullying for good measure. Sensible, balanced, open minded posts are spoiling the spirit in which this thread was started. Please, can both sides stick to the original topic. i.e. all barefoot owners condone half crippled horses & angle grinder wielding psychos, & bully people into believing its natural. Don't hijack this thread with rational views!


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## wench (16 October 2012)

I had a tb mare out of racing. Had shoes taken off because she wasnt in enough work to warrent having them on.

Shock horror, the farrier trimmed them for me. Even more shock horror she was fed on normal horse food. And "transitioning phase"??? She had them taken off and that was the end of it.


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## Scarlett (16 October 2012)

tallyho! said:



			I quite like Scarlett's post.
		
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Thank you...


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## Pale Rider (16 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			No, no, no, Tallyho & quite a few more of you, you're missing the point. An informative, sensible discussion isn't any good. Far more constructive if we all relate the details of screw ups, use that one experience to form a conclusion, split into two camps & judge each other, preferably with accusations of bullying for good measure. Sensible, balanced, open minded posts are spoiling the spirit in which this thread was started. Please, can both sides stick to the original topic. i.e. all barefoot owners condone half crippled horses & angle grinder wielding psychos, & bully people into believing its natural. Don't hijack this thread with rational views!
		
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Well, I'm for that.


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## chestnut cob (16 October 2012)

Scarlett said:



			I'm sorry but I've yet to meet a farrier who acknowledges that horses can be unshod and be in 'proper' work. Yet funnily enough my vet does.... 

Click to expand...

I disagree with this.  

My farrier is superb (I use a remedial farrier) and recommends horses to have a break from shoes every year, at the very least.  My big horse doesn't have great feet (slowly getting better thanks to a lot of management changes and gradual changes in shoeing) and even he gets a break from shoes.  He had a month out after hunting finished in the spring and was much better for it.  When the time came to put them back on, farrier actually told me to carry on without given the amount of work he was doing.  My new horse came to me fully shod and farrier took his backs off 3 months ago.  The horse never felt a thing and is cubbing without back shoes.  Farrier regularly tells me what great, strong feet the horse has and never goes near them with a rasp or to trim them.  He simply said I might find I want shoes when we get into hunting proper in the winter.  

Incidentally... this horse gets a handful of Safe & Sound and hay!  The big one gets linseed, magox, brewers yeast, yea-sacc, seaweed... and still has pretty rubbish feet whether shod or not.  

Surely the whole thing is dependent on the horse and what suits him?  My big one doesn't suit being without shoes when he's working, or I don't have the time or inclination to do it.  The little one does.


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## Kat (16 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			No, no, no, Tallyho & quite a few more of you, you're missing the point. An informative, sensible discussion isn't any good. Far more constructive if we all relate the details of screw ups, use that one experience to form a conclusion, split into two camps & judge each other, preferably with accusations of bullying for good measure. Sensible, balanced, open minded posts are spoiling the spirit in which this thread was started. Please, can both sides stick to the original topic. i.e. all barefoot owners condone half crippled horses & angle grinder wielding psychos, & bully people into believing its natural. Don't hijack this thread with rational views!
		
Click to expand...

 

In all seriousness though threads like this do nothing to help the horses, or their owners. If someone has no shoes on their horse and is struggling or has shoes on and is worrying about whether they should take them off then all threads like this do is make them reluctant to seek help for fear of being told they are cruel or stupid or starting WW3. 

I've just had shoes removed with the vets supervision and have purchased some hoofboots. I've had some lovely help and comments from people on here but fear of getting a kicking makes me reluctant to post much. But like 95% of people on here, I am only interested in what is best for my horse and couldn't give a nark about dogma, if my horse is better without shoes then I will do everything I can to support her, if she needs boots so be it, if she needs shoes then she'll get them. 

I can't imagine that there are many people out there who knowingly put their horse through discomfort for the sake of some misplaced ideals, but there are probably a lot tearing their hair out unsure of what to do for the best or where to turn for unbiased advice. It is a shame that this forum can't provide advice and support from all angles without it having to deteriorate into a big us and them war.....


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## Goldenstar (16 October 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			I don't think its right to pass off a lame horse as going through the transition. The welfare of the horse is paramount in any system. To remove the shoes before providing a proper diet, is getting the transition completely the wrong way round. If a horse is totally sore just taking the shoes off, indicates how bad the feet are and how much damage the shoes are covering up. Hoof boots should always be part of a transition. Don't forget that good feet are not trimmed into existance, its diet and exercise that form good healthy feet.
		
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Alarming amount of agreement with you today Pale Rider IMO a horse crippled when it's shoes are removed is not a healthy horse .
One thing that has  amazed me was how little a role trimming plays in the BF horse my TB ( in transition I hate that word but can't think of any other way to put it) has just had his first trim since April.
My WB ( BF a year) has just had a trim he only needed that because he got a cough and was out of work a while I think it was feb last time he was done.
I tell my trimmer that he should really call himself a trimmer but an advisor or hand holder as he seems to do very little trimming.


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## Littlelegs (16 October 2012)

You're as bad pale rider, an earlier post of yours agreed some horses need shoes, you're ruining the well known myth that all pro barefoot people prefer a horse to be uncomfortable for the duration of its life than have it shod! 
  And you kat, your post should have been either 'i've seen the light, can't believe how cruel all shoeing is' or ' I tried but I feel so guilty I left my horse hobbling for a decade to fit in with natural ideals'


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## Kat (16 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			You're as bad pale rider, an earlier post of yours agreed some horses need shoes, you're ruining the well known myth that all pro barefoot people prefer a horse to be uncomfortable for the duration of its life than have it shod! 
  And you kat, your post should have been either 'i've seen the light, can't believe how cruel all shoeing is' or ' I tried but I feel so guilty I left my horse hobbling for a decade to fit in with natural ideals'
		
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oops sorry Miss - will try harder next time


*toddles off to practice being more argumentative and divisive*


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## Goldenstar (16 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			You're as bad pale rider, an earlier post of yours agreed some horses need shoes, you're ruining the well known myth that all pro barefoot people prefer a horse to be uncomfortable for the duration of its life than have it shod! 
  And you kat, your post should have been either 'i've seen the light, can't believe how cruel all shoeing is' or ' I tried but I feel so guilty I left my horse hobbling for a decade to fit in with natural ideals'
		
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You see you are allowed to sit on the fence and do what suits you that means here I am about to go on exercise one  unshod two wearing front boots and one shod
I am sad that people are not asking advice because they fear getting a virtual ear bashing but people should remember a virutal ear bashing can't harm you can can help you to clarify what it is you think, and you can just ignore posts that are rude.
It's too easy always to take an totally opposing view to a post you don't like or aggree with that how things get polarised.
That's a shame mainly for the with people closed minds and their horses.


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## Polotash (16 October 2012)

I agree with OP. We have a very pretty Andalusian living locally which is barefoot. We're on very flinty and stoney lanes, very little road work but equally no forest tracks/ grass headlands either. The horse is always very footy, and the rider is frequently seen walking her home after a ride because she is sore.

This is not to say some horses don't manage perfectly well bare foot, no  one disputes that, but in cases where the horse is clearly feeling its feet the owners should not carry on regardless.


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## tallyho! (16 October 2012)

Polotash said:



			I agree with OP. We have a very pretty Andalusian living locally which is barefoot. We're on very flinty and stoney lanes, very little road work but equally no forest tracks/ grass headlands either. The horse is always very footy, and the rider is frequently seen walking her home after a ride because she is sore.

This is not to say some horses don't manage perfectly well bare foot, no  one disputes that, but in cases where the horse is clearly feeling its feet the owners should not carry on regardless.
		
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Well then do something about it, don't moan to us.


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## Scarlett (16 October 2012)

chestnut cob said:



			I disagree with this.  

My farrier is superb (I use a remedial farrier) and recommends horses to have a break from shoes every year, at the very least.  My big horse doesn't have great feet (slowly getting better thanks to a lot of management changes and gradual changes in shoeing) and even he gets a break from shoes.  He had a month out after hunting finished in the spring and was much better for it.  When the time came to put them back on, farrier actually told me to carry on without given the amount of work he was doing.  My new horse came to me fully shod and farrier took his backs off 3 months ago.  The horse never felt a thing and is cubbing without back shoes.  Farrier regularly tells me what great, strong feet the horse has and never goes near them with a rasp or to trim them.  He simply said I might find I want shoes when we get into hunting proper in the winter.
		
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I wasn't posting that to start an argument, believe me, it's just my own experience of the farriers I have tried since taking my horses shoes off. My farrier was supportive of my horses shoes being pulled as he too agrees they need a break from shoes, but he assumes that no shoes on my lad meant no work. He does trim horses who are unshod and in work - the horse I part loan is trimmed by him at her owners request - but his style of trim didn't suit my boy so I tried a trimmer who was recommended to me and her style did. Sound horse = happy me. 

Does it really matter if it's a farrier or a trimmer who looks after the horse if the horse is sound and the feet in good condition?

My other horses are now unshod, if the day comes where I don't feel it's working for them then I'll shoe. We sometimes get too blinkered by certain things to really see whats going on and treat the horses as individuals...

We also all need to have a little more respect for other peoples decisions for their horses IMO. There are many things in the horse world I find cruel - draw reins, gag bits, badly fitting saddles, lack of turnout, etc etc - all of which I feel can cause suffering to a horse, thats no different to a footy horse walking over stones IMO yet I don't feel the need to berate people for their choices.


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## ester (16 October 2012)

SpottyTB said:



			for ex) when the horse is hopping lame walking to the field but it's ok because it's going through the "transition process".. you see my point?
		
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that isn't really doing it proper though is it? if the horse is really that sore a sensible owner would be providing protection during the transition in such a scenario


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## Equilibrium Ireland (16 October 2012)

I have to laugh because for the past 2 mornings my husband has been out scrutinising every movement from Abba while I'm riding. He was an assistant in Saudi for 18 months. The trainer there pulled the shoes on everything except when they ran. He said some were so crippled and it was breaking his heart trying to keep horses right. So my wanting to get the horses out of shoes and still working was met with "no horse of mine will be in pain". Trust me my husband can see the slightest blip in a gait. He's been pleasantly surprised but insists that these horses must be comfortable. I'm not sneaking a lame one by him. He's getting more involved in the diet and the mechanics of correct movement and the individual requirements. 

So from my end I know I can't be blinded by stupidity. I also wish he'd let me do just a tad more work with Abba. I can feel her under me and she so badly wants to do something but knows she can't! LOL! He wants her work to be a slow steady progression to an overall sounder healthy horse. So far so good, but we won't say never with anything. 

Quick question with this Fast Fibre. Do you all add a vit and min supp or just flax and mag or what. I think we can get that here.

Terri


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## Goldenstar (16 October 2012)

You would have to feed the fast fibre in the amount for a horse of your size of horse my horses would never need that much which is why I won't use FF I prefer to add vets and mins I chose to staight food.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (16 October 2012)

Ok GS thanks because I do straights as well. That's the kind of info I need. I feed a "cheap chaff" which is straw and grass, minimal startch and add oats accordingly. Not much of those at the moment. Then I add salt, flax, mag, and a vit and min supp that has a good yeast complex in it with other digestive things. 

Terri


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## cptrayes (16 October 2012)

SpottyTB said:



			In response to your other quote (i don't know how to quote twice - my bad) the horse was not already laminitic, it was trimmed by the trimmer and then got mechanical laminitis due to the severity of laminal breakdown the pedal bone sank.
		
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This just isn't mechanically possible. If the hoof wall was trimmed right off and the horse was standing nowhere but on its sole, there would be nowhere for the pedal bone to sink TO, it would be sitting on the frog, on the floor. There would be no disruptive forces on the laminae whatsoever, they would in fact be completely unloaded.  There is only loading on the laminae when there is loading of the hoof wall on the ground.

The horse might be sore, but it physically could not cause mechanical separation of the laminae to trim the hoof wall short, and anyone who says it could has not done hoof dissections.

I do not believe that a trim can cause laminae breakdown in an otherwise uncompromised foot, sorry


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## Daytona (16 October 2012)

Well i as i said Proves it to me, i like to make my mind up on what i see with my own eyes , not what others tell me, i did once try my last mare without shoes and she could harldly walk across the yard, i did leave it a couple of month as thought she would improve but it did not so stuck her shoes back on.  So between than and my friends horse with the white line issues, id only shoe my horses now.

But everyone is entitiled to there views and how they justifie them to themselves, im not saying im right or wrong , im just saying that s my view on this matter.


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## Littlelegs (16 October 2012)

I agree Goldenstar, it is about what's best for the horse, but I just don't get the impression that's why the thread was started. It seemed to be more about forming group stereotypes based on individual experience of the local numpty who's gone about things the wrong way. Rather than an informative discussion.


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## Always Henesy (16 October 2012)

Sorry but I think it is all about what is best for the horse Shod/unshod - does it really matter? As long as it suits the horse and it is happy and healthy.
Now my TB is currently unshod (long story somewhere on here) - he was out on loan and a farrier nailed through the white line and fitted a set of heart bar shoes - BADLY 

Now my farrier is an absolute treasure - I have used him for years. He was the first person after me to say that he needed a period of no shoes. His poor little feet needed to recover.
So I get the most wonderful support on here and loads of advice from the barefooters. At no point have they berated me for maybe one day having him shod again. They have just been all round really lovely.

My lad is currently growing beautiful new feet, has put on about 25 kilos in weight, is happy, pain free and I couldn't be happier. 

Surely we are all just interested in what is the best foot management of each INDIVIDUAL horse? Whether that's shod/unshod/barefoot/stilletto heels or wellies?


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## WestCoast (16 October 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Well I think if you can't find the info you need on the internet to successfully take your horse barefoot if you want, or shod properly if you want then... you ARE stupid 

Click to expand...

If you think the big steaming pile of opinions, anecdotes and propoganda for supplement companies on the Internet is any kind of useful  evidence. . .  

This is fun isn't it. 

Paula


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## pip6 (16 October 2012)

I can only work from personal experience. When mine don't need shoes, they are taken off. I have a barefoot broodmare who consistantly got abscesses in the winter, until I tried putting a set of shoes on, & she then didn't get any. So when the fields go soft, she is shod until they improve, no abscesses yet (after 4 winters barefoot with). I understand other horses would react differently, but that's her.

I sent another mare on breeding loan to a very good stud this summer. Whilst there a retired farrier did barefoot trimming on her (I did not know they had this ethos). She wasn't happy, & didn't take, so I got her back in July. When I collected her she had just been 'trimmed' a few days before. She was so lame & in pain she could barely put one foot in front the other even on grass. No wonder she never took there. The walls of her feet had been rasped into oblivion, & there was evidence of an infection (they claimed the farrier had caught her coronet band with his rasp because she had moved - not surprised with the state of her feet he must have been causing her major pain) in the coronet band.  I had to wait months with her on the softest surfaces for her feet to grow before my farrier could fit a set, she showed instant relief. The gaps between the hoof wall where they had been rasped up & the shoe were huge. 6 weeks on she has had a second set fitted, they look better, but still don't meet the shoe.

My horse was used to being without shoes (was for 2 years when she had her foal), a basic trim was all she needed. She did not need any remedial work to convert her to 'barefoot'. I think the people who run the stud are good people, but have been mislead by this farrier into thinking they are doing good by 'going barefoot' & are causing suffering. To see a horse so lame & not question the actions of the 'professional' means I would never leave another horse there, or recommend that others do. My girl may well be unshod again over the winter (trimmed by my farrier), but I will never use someone who purports to use barefoot principles. My 4 yr old is unshod, & shows no signs of needing shoes yet (trimmed by my farrier). My broodmare will have shoes over the winter, & go barefoot for 3/4 of the year. It's just what works for mine.


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## Pale Rider (16 October 2012)

Ludoctro

Well i as i said Proves it to me, i like to make my mind up on what i see with my own eyes , not what others tell me, i did once try my last mare without shoes and she could harldly walk across the yard, i did leave it a couple of month as thought she would improve but it did not so stuck her shoes back on. So between than and my friends horse with the white line issues, id only shoe my horses now.

But everyone is entitiled to there views and how they justifie them to themselves, im not saying im right or wrong , im just saying that s my view on this matter. 

Well, as we're all entitled to our opinion, based on what you have said, you probably won't like mine.

If you take the shoes off a horse and it is so bad on it's feet it cannot walk across the yard, whatever has gone on with this horse's management has been grossly detrimental. Steel shoes have only covered up what has been going on. It's really sad to think that when the feeling is allowed back in the feet, that feeling is nothing but pain.

Whether it's inappropriate diet, exercise or the fact that, filing an already thin sole or the atrophy of the digital cushion, the feet are crippled, not irrevocably in most cases, rehabilitated properly. These feet are like the bound Chinese foot, mutilated by constriction.


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## Bikerchickone (16 October 2012)

Ludoctro said:



			Well i as i said Proves it to me, i like to make my mind up on what i see with my own eyes , not what others tell me, i did once try my last mare without shoes and she could harldly walk across the yard, i did leave it a couple of month as thought she would improve but it did not so stuck her shoes back on.  So between than and my friends horse with the white line issues, id only shoe my horses now.

But everyone is entitiled to there views and how they justifie them to themselves, im not saying im right or wrong , im just saying that s my view on this matter. 

Click to expand...

This is exactly why I sent my lad to Rockley, I didn't want him to have to be uncomfortable and I knew Nic had surfaces there to help him, the pea gravel for example. There's no way I could watch either of mine struggling to walk and then justify it as being a normal transition period. Surely this is when boots are needed, or the shoes need to be put back on and the diet adjusted before another attempt is made, with better preparation ideally. 

I don't care what anyone else does with their horse's feet provided the horse is comfortable and the rider is happy. I like to think I'm approachable if anyone wants to know anything about our journey, but I wouldn't slam anyone who didn't want to try it. We all want the best for our horses, there's no need to argue that point is there? 

Sorry Littlelegs I can't do argumentative very well!


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## Goldenstar (16 October 2012)

Paulag said:



			If you think the big steaming pile of opinions, anecdotes and propoganda for supplement companies on the Internet is any kind of useful  evidence. . .  

This is fun isn't it. 

Paula
		
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it's about perception isn't it .
When I first started coming on H+HO the BF threads intrigued me you had people ,clearly experianced hunting horses BF to me that was wow rocking back on my heels stuff that made me question everything I had been taught.
I read the threads and when a good time came had a go.
Useful evidence is normal owners hunting doing dressage whatever with no shoes on the horses .
You Paulag have a thing about people feeding supplements  that's your view that's fine but when asking advice when taking a horse BF I would rather listen to someone whose hunting their horse with no shoes than someone who has a shod 4yo .
It's been a big learning curve for me it's a year now and shortly I will try to do the thing that shocked me into opening my mind to it I am going to take a BF horse hunting.




My trimmers wife does endurance rides BF that's really impressive.


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## tallyho! (16 October 2012)

Paulag said:



			If you think the big steaming pile of opinions, anecdotes and propoganda for supplement companies on the Internet is any kind of useful  evidence. . .  

This is fun isn't it. 

Paula
		
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Yes! I always have fun reading your posts Paula!


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## WestCoast (16 October 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			it's about perception isn't it .

You Paulag have a thing about people feeding supplements  that's your view that's fine but when asking advice when taking a horse BF I would rather listen to someone whose hunting their horse with no shoes than someone who has a shod 4yo .
		
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I don't have a 'thing' about supplements, that's the point. Noone seems to be able to point me to that 'thing' that provides any evidence for them. What I do have is training in evidence based research in nutrition hence the question 'where is your evidence?' will continue to be asked. Whether my horse is shod or not is a complete irrelevance. I took advice from a professional, not a random opinionated person on a forum. 

P xxxx


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## Goldenstar (16 October 2012)

Paulag said:





Goldenstar said:



			it's about perception isn't it .

You Paulag have a thing about people feeding supplements  that's your view that's fine but when asking advice when taking a horse BF I would rather listen to someone whose hunting their horse with no shoes than someone who has a shod 4yo .  [\quote]

I don't have a 'thing' about supplements, that's the point. Noone seems to be able to point me to that 'thing' that provides any evidence for them. What I do have is training in evidence based research in nutrition hence the question 'where is your evidence?' will continue to be asked. Whether my horse is shod or not is a complete irrelevance. I took advice from a professional, not a random opinionated person on a forum. 

P xxxx
		
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That your horse is shod is not an irrelevance to someone seeking advice about BF.
It's interesting to learn how others get BF to work and it genuinely can work I know that now as a fact because I have got a fully in work BF horse I can see him from here.
But I also have a shod one ( will have another go with him next year ) and to in ( that awful word again) transition who knows at this stage whether they will go back into shoes at times it will depend on where their lives take them .
I really still after all this time and reading all these threads dont understand why BF is such an emotive subject.
		
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## Littlelegs (16 October 2012)

The thing is though Paula, if you have knowledge of human nutrition, you'll know in the majority of cases, brittle nails, dry skin etc in humans comes down to diet. Therefore is it not reasonable to assume horses may well be the same? Good barefoot research does need doing, but until someone stumps up the cost of a comprehensive study, the evidence will remain anecdotal. And tbh, I have little regard for qualifications alone anyway. Experience is what I respect.


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## Goldenstar (16 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			me too , qualifications can be a complete irrevance.
		
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## Daytona (16 October 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Ludoctro

Well i as i said Proves it to me, i like to make my mind up on what i see with my own eyes , not what others tell me, i did once try my last mare without shoes and she could harldly walk across the yard, i did leave it a couple of month as thought she would improve but it did not so stuck her shoes back on. So between than and my friends horse with the white line issues, id only shoe my horses now.

But everyone is entitiled to there views and how they justifie them to themselves, im not saying im right or wrong , im just saying that s my view on this matter. 

Well, as we're all entitled to our opinion, based on what you have said, you probably won't like mine.

If you take the shoes off a horse and it is so bad on it's feet it cannot walk across the yard, whatever has gone on with this horse's management has been grossly detrimental. Steel shoes have only covered up what has been going on. It's really sad to think that when the feeling is allowed back in the feet, that feeling is nothing but pain.

Whether it's inappropriate diet, exercise or the fact that, filing an already thin sole or the atrophy of the digital cushion, the feet are crippled, not irrevocably in most cases, rehabilitated properly. These feet are like the bound Chinese foot, mutilated by constriction.
		
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Who knows pale rider but she clearly was uncomfortable, that horse was on a diet recommend by blue chip the whole time i had her - not idea if it was good or bad as i am not a nutritionist, but i can only assume as it was recommended by there nutritionist it cant of been that bad , and my farrier always said she had good feet.  And as for exercise well she was your aveerage amatuers show jumper, i certainly never cut corners on her manangement, i try to give my horses the best of the best

Perhaps some horses that have been shod from a ealry age just are just not suitable to walk around shoeless and be expected to carry us across hard surfaces.

People living in the jungle and under developed countries quite happily walk about with no shoes and dont seem to find it sore - does that mean because im human i can do the same, i think if i tried to walk through the jungle with no shoes on id be in agony - what makes this any different..?  Its about adapting to what your use to.


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## Wagtail (16 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			The thing is though Paula, if you have knowledge of human nutrition, you'll know in the majority of cases, brittle nails, dry skin etc in humans comes down to diet. Therefore is it not reasonable to assume horses may well be the same? Good barefoot research does need doing, but until someone stumps up the cost of a comprehensive study, the evidence will remain anecdotal. And tbh, I have little regard for qualifications alone anyway. Experience is what I respect.
		
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Just wanted to say here, that I have awful nails and very slow growing hair. I have tried every supplement under the sun and it makes no difference. My sister, who obviously was brought up on the same diet has always had really strong nails and hair that grows unbelievably fast. She can cut it short and have it down to her waist within 6 months. She is a vegetarian, I am a pescatarian, so diets not that different even now.

ETA: My skin is lovely though, no wrinkles, my sister is younger and has much dryer skin and quite a few wrinkles.


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## Oberon (16 October 2012)

Ludoctro said:



			a diet recommend by blue chip the whole time.
		
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There's your answer 

We often find tinkering with the diet is the key to a comfy barefoot horse. 

Not many of us feed according to company's advice any more as we just couldn't get the horses comfy that way .


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## cptrayes (16 October 2012)

Paulag said:



			I took advice from a professional, not a random opinionated person on a forum. 

P xxxx
		
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I'll bet women hundreds of years ago chewed willow when they had a headache on the advice of random opinionated people Paula 

Just because something is anecdotal doesn't mean it's not true


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## Kat (16 October 2012)

Ludoctro said:



			that horse was on a diet recommend by blue chip the whole time i had her - not idea if it was good or bad as i am not a nutritionist, but i can only assume as it was recommended by there nutritionist it cant of been that bad
		
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Everyone would do well to bear in mind that "in house" nutritionists are not independant. They are paid by the feed company they work for and can only recommend that company's products and therefore any diet plan will involve suggesting the product from their range that most closely matches your horse's requirements, even if that product is actually quite unsuitable. It is like taking financial advice from a bank employee, and should probably have similar warnings attached. 

It is always worth checking their advice. We had a nutritionist visit our yard to advise recently, she made recommendations that every horse should be on their brand of feed. I'm no feeding expert but I checked her recommendations against the spec for the feed that I was already using (which the nutritionist had never heard of) and found that all of the nutrients she had advised my horse needed more of were contained in higher quantities in the feed I was using than the one recommended, so I didn't switch. But lots of people did.... 

Feed company reps can give you interesting ideas and input but you shouldn't follow their recommendations blindly - get several and compare what they say and what they recommend and compare the products against each other.


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## Pale Rider (16 October 2012)

I worked for a feed company for a couple of years a long time ago. We were encouraged to sell their feed of course and diss. other brands.
What went into them was whatever was cheap and laced with molasses, add a few aromatic herbs and Bob's your uncle, top spec feed.

I don't do that anymore.


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## tallyho! (16 October 2012)

Paulag said:



			I don't have a 'thing' about supplements, that's the point. Noone seems to be able to point me to that 'thing' that provides any evidence for them. What I do have is training in evidence based research in nutrition hence the question 'where is your evidence?' will continue to be asked. Whether my horse is shod or not is a complete irrelevance. I took advice from a professional, not a random opinionated person on a forum. 

P xxxx
		
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The thing is, barefoot has very little evidence of the type you seek but a wealth of anecdotes. I feel this is the wrong place for you and you will continue to be frustrated with the lack of evidence.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (16 October 2012)

And you will find balancers such as Blue Chip full of soya. FWIW my break away from big feed companies was due to being called crazy in the head. How dare I suggest soya might be playing a part in IR type symptoms in my horses that went away in 2 weeks when soya was taken out of the diet. My previous easy breeding mare went to not catching as soon as miracle balancer were introduced. The money I spent on testing was ridiculous. All came back healthy. First year back after ditching soy, pregnant straight away. Soya plays havoc with people too. 

Can't stand balancers myself. Too much crap for most horses even though you feed in cups. Feed companies love pushing that. Save money, feed less. All the nutrition you need in one easy bag. Thing is it's a very easy experiment that's not harmful to your horse. 

I'd well believe that mare couldn't achieve bare while on soya balancers. Mine would be absolutely crippled. 

Terri


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## Littlelegs (16 October 2012)

I agree Wagtail, I'm the exception the other way, my diets nutritionally awful yet I'm healthy. You'd be the human equivalent of the horse that needs shoes! Whereas if I had problems, diet would be the first thing to look at.


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## ester (16 October 2012)

As a science boff/geek I would love for there to be more evidence, unfortunately there isn't right now (partly because so few people stand to make much money out of it!) so I have to make do with my own personal case study. (back to the n=1 again   )

Ludoctro if you only walked a little way every day in the jungle you would develop suitable callouses though... the potential is there for you to cope with it just as yet not the environment. It is about adapting to what you are used to and when you move the goal posts you then have to treat/help your horse as appropriate. 

I well suspect my boy has been in shoes since he was 4.. I know at least since he was 8 and he is now 19. For a long time I did wonder if it really was fair to take his shoes off after such a long time and it was a definite concern. He has totally proved me wrong on that though and we have changes and soundness that just weren't possible in shoes.


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## Pale Rider (16 October 2012)

If your looking for evidence, dissect some feet from shod horses like I have, and compare with barefoot ones.
Weak attachment of the hoof capsule, a sole less than a third of what it should be, and most importantly, a digital cushion that is spongy not hard and fiberous like it should be.


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## Bikerchickone (16 October 2012)

I must admit I find Paula's posts interesting too. All this insistence on evidence is great. My evidence is that without magnesium and pro balance + my lad struggles to trot across the stony tracks around our yard. With them he does so beautifully. Why would I need scientific evidence when a simple process of elimination shows me what I need to know? 

I do love a good debate!


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## TigerTail (16 October 2012)

Paulag said:



			I took advice from a professional, not a random opinionated person on a forum.
		
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But as is seen in every profession out there - there are good and bad professionals everywhere. Given that your horse wasn't gimping lame when you went to try/buy her something clearly went wrong! You put shoes on so yes you solved the visable problem that was making you wince watching her be footsore, but you didnt solve what caused the lameness in the first place.

This is what I really really struggle with with your opinions, they just arent consistent with what you do with your own horse to my mind.

Have we got any studies, out of interest, that specifically prove balancing an unbalanced diet, which is what we do with the addition of minerals, doesn't effect hoof health?


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## Daytona (16 October 2012)

Ester - I quite believe I could adapt over time to having no shoes in the jungle if I did a tiny bit at a time over a long period 

But unfortunately when I had that mare , I had her to compete on, the only reason I personally choose to own a horse to SJ on so I could not spend months maybe years while she could adapt to no shoes I try try for a couple of months but nothing improved and I needed to ride my mare, hack her out , jump her etc.

But yes will a long period of time I'm sure eventually she would of been able to walk without being sore.  But I have a horse for a purpose and one purpose one.


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## SusieT (16 October 2012)

'here are less hostile places than HHO to get help if you are genuinely looking for barefoot help.

PM me or Oberon if you want to know where to go and we can direct you - but I am one of the admins of the other "place" so fair warning that I won't tolerate posts of the tone of the OP's posts that seek to criticise barefoot horses, trained trimmers, their owners or other hoof care professionals in a non-constructive way. ' in other words it is a heavily  moderated forum where  you cannot disagree, people aren't welcome if not through and through barefooters so actually you are a closed shop-no better than the farriers you villify for looking after their own... At least on here you will get both sides of the arguement, not just advice that will not consider any way but the old faithful dietnetc. regardelss of abcesses, injuries, horses being sore etc. everything on those forums (be it a bee sting on the mouth!) is sorted by taking shoes off..


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## ester (16 October 2012)

yup I think that's the difference really and very much understand I am still not sure I would have had the patience for the transition pre lameness as I was enjoying him too much! 

As it was it was that or retirement (and no more fun  ) and we did start with 10 mins on long reins down the road and back


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## paddy555 (16 October 2012)

SusieT said:



			in other words it is a heavily  moderated forum where  you cannot disagree, people aren't welcome if not through and through barefooters so actually you are a closed shop-no better than the farriers you villify for looking after their own... At least on here you will get both sides of the arguement, not just advice that will not consider any way but the old faithful dietnetc. regardelss of abcesses, injuries, horses being sore etc. everything on those forums (be it a bee sting on the mouth!) is sorted by taking shoes off..
		
Click to expand...

Don 't remember seeing you on that forum so not sure how you are in a position to be able to comment with any authority?

my horse was stung in the mouth by a bee, under his tongue actually. We didn't take his shoes off as they had already been off for over 20 years so barefoot clearly didn't work on bee stings. 
 The vet gave him a steroid injection BTW which did work.


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## SNORKEY (16 October 2012)

You won't like my new post then! I'm not planning on riding on the stones, I'm just hoping having his shoes off for a few months whilst I can't ride (having a baby) may help his feet.


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## cptrayes (16 October 2012)

The evidence debate is always interesting. There is, of course, no scientific evidence whatsoever for shoes, it is all anecdotal. 

For remedial shoeing, what "scientific" evidence there is, is completely laughable. One study took 82 horses, shot 27 of them as "too bad to help", bar shod the rest and claimed a 50ish % success rate when 28 or so of them "improved", even though some of the 55 they shod were, as stated in the study, not noticeably unsound in the first place. How priceless is that!?!?!?!


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## tallyho! (16 October 2012)

Ludoctro said:



			Ester - I quite believe I could adapt over time to having no shoes in the jungle if I did a tiny bit at a time over a long period 

But unfortunately when I had that mare , I had her to compete on, the only reason I personally choose to own a horse to SJ on so I could not spend months maybe years while she could adapt to no shoes I try try for a couple of months but nothing improved and I needed to ride my mare, hack her out , jump her etc.

But yes will a long period of time I'm sure eventually she would of been able to walk without being sore.  But I have a horse for a purpose and one purpose one.
		
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Well then you made the right choice. Forget about it.


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## weesophz (16 October 2012)

Lizzy_Doodle said:



			*opens popcorn and settles back to watch the onslaught.....* 

Click to expand...

this


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## tallyho! (16 October 2012)

SusieT said:



			in other words it is a heavily  moderated forum where  you cannot disagree, people aren't welcome if not through and through barefooters
		
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Thank The Lord!


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## ridefast (16 October 2012)

Well I think I am right and you are all wrong, unless you agree with me then you are right too


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## Goldenstar (16 October 2012)

Paulag said:



			I don't have a 'thing' about supplements, that's the point. Noone seems to be able to point me to that 'thing' that provides any evidence for them. What I do have is training in evidence based research in nutrition hence the question 'where is your evidence?' will continue to be asked. Whether my horse is shod or not is a complete irrelevance. I took advice from a professional, not a random opinionated person on a forum. 

P xxxx
		
Click to expand...

Evidence based research mmm have I seen any on shoeing dont think they did any when thry started except that we know that shoeing makes the heels of horses function less well and the heels contract and the frogs of shod horses are much smaller and thus the shod horse has its circulation impaired.
We know that this is a big part of the cause of navicular syndrome even the most traditional anti barefoot vet will tell you that.
But the problem with evidence based research is this if humans had required research to start problem solving we would never have thought lets try and push these seeds  that grow into those great plants into the soil in  this clearing and see if there's more plants when we come back, and then we would never had started farming.
Forums like this are about opinions without random people with opinions  these forums would be pretty dull places.


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## tallyho! (16 October 2012)

ridefast said:



			Well I think I am right and you are all wrong, unless you agree with me then you are right too 

Click to expand...

No you're not, I am right and you are wrong so nerrrr!


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## Goldenstar (16 October 2012)

SusieT said:



			'here are less hostile places than HHO to get help if you are genuinely looking for barefoot help.

PM me or Oberon if you want to know where to go and we can direct you - but I am one of the admins of the other "place" so fair warning that I won't tolerate posts of the tone of the OP's posts that seek to criticise barefoot horses, trained trimmers, their owners or other hoof care professionals in a non-constructive way. ' in other words it is a heavily  moderated forum where  you cannot disagree, people aren't welcome if not through and through barefooters so actually you are a closed shop-no better than the farriers you villify for looking after their own... At least on here you will get both sides of the arguement, not just advice that will not consider any way but the old faithful dietnetc. regardelss of abcesses, injuries, horses being sore etc. everything on those forums (be it a bee sting on the mouth!) is sorted by taking shoes off..
		
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Why on earth should like minded people not have a disscussion forum that devotes itself to to their pet subject .
You don't need to to read it if it's not your thing .
Perhaps the people who post their just want to disscuss their thing without these addmittedly very amusing bun fights.

It's no skin off your nose so ignore it.


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## ridefast (16 October 2012)

tallyho! said:



			No you're not, I am right and you are wrong so nerrrr!



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But you have no PROOF, where are the FACTS, the SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE!! Oh now my hair has fallen out, looks like I'm barehead aswell as barefoot


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## Dizzy socks (16 October 2012)

I agree this is is a controversial issue, however I think there are arguments for and against both sides. I have 2 ponies, an 11.2hhh welsh pony, and shetland/mini. Both have allways been barefoot and have never had even a day of lameness. However,I believe shoes are a nessecity for many horses, and should be used whenever nessecary. It is simply not feasable to keep all horses barefoot.


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## Wagtail (16 October 2012)

Sorry to hijack the thread but can those who are knowledgable regarding the barefoot diet tell me whether The Pure Feeds Company 'Easy' has sufficient of the required minerals required for good hoof help? As this is what I am feeding. Thanks.


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## tallyho! (16 October 2012)

ridefast said:



			But you have no PROOF, where are the FACTS, the SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE!! Oh now my hair has fallen out, looks like I'm barehead aswell as barefoot
		
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Oh really!? You should try biotin!!! If that doesn't work blame your genes... That's always a good one!


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## brucea (16 October 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Sorry to hijack the thread but can those who are knowledgable regarding the barefoot diet tell me whether The Pure Feeds Company 'Easy' has sufficient of the required minerals required for good hoof help? As this is what I am feeding. Thanks.
		
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Not sure. But we fed it to our lami and he did very well on it. 

Expensive though.


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## tallyho! (16 October 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Sorry to hijack the thread but can those who are knowledgable regarding the barefoot diet tell me whether The Pure Feeds Company 'Easy' has sufficient of the required minerals required for good hoof help? As this is what I am feeding. Thanks.
		
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Oi wagtail, we're having an argument here, do you mind?! Go start your own thread!

Gah some people have no manners!!!


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## ridefast (16 October 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Oh really!? You should try biotin!!! If that doesn't work blame your genes... That's always a good one!
		
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I'm going to try gelatin because I read somewhere that it was good and as they were selling it they must be telling the truth


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## thatsmygirl (16 October 2012)

Iv just come back from a lovely ride on my mare who is now bare, not a foot out of place on the roads and the stones while my friends shod horse was walking toe first and triping none stop. 

Had to smile and think of this thread while my mare marched on.


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## Wagtail (16 October 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Oi wagtail, we're having an argument here, do you mind?! Go start your own thread!

Gah some people have no manners!!!



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How rude!!!


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## Palindrome (16 October 2012)

Wagtail said:



			Sorry to hijack the thread but can those who are knowledgable regarding the barefoot diet tell me whether The Pure Feeds Company 'Easy' has sufficient of the required minerals required for good hoof help? As this is what I am feeding. Thanks.
		
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I have had a look and it seems pretty good. It could have a bit more magnesium, but overall iron is not sky high, copper and zinc look reasonnable (they could be a bit higher) and there are some goodies added like brewer yeast and I guess Profeed are the probiotics. If you don't have any specific problem or high inbalance in your grass/roughage I would think it would work out well.


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## tallyho! (16 October 2012)

ridefast said:



			I'm going to try gelatin because I read somewhere that it was good and as they were selling it they must be telling the truth
		
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Yes well if they were selling it, it must be good! You are so clever! I like you.


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## Flame_ (16 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			The evidence debate is always interesting. There is, of course, no scientific evidence whatsoever for shoes, it is all anecdotal. 

For remedial shoeing, what "scientific" evidence there is, is completely laughable. One study took 82 horses, shot 27 of them as "too bad to help", bar shod the rest and claimed a 50ish % success rate when 28 or so of them "improved", even though some of the 55 they shod were, as stated in the study, not noticeably unsound in the first place. How priceless is that!?!?!?!
		
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This is a very good point. My old gelding went wrong a few years ago and there is no better word to describe his remedial shoeing than cruel. I wasn't aware of barefoot rehabilitation at the time as an option, but I knew that what the vets and the farriers were doing was wrong, was not making my horse better and was making him very, very unhappy in spite of their insistence that their approach was working. I was just relieved to finally be told by a better vet that there was nothing anyone could do to fix him, put him back in regular shoes and gave me the green light to put him out of his misery. He was made to suffer much more than he should have been and I will always be cross with myself and with Leahurst for that.

If it were now I would welcome giving barefoot a try, as long as my horse's comfort and happiness improved along the way. My point is, remedial farriery can be bloody torture and yet they keep on peddling it and all too often it doesn't even work. It sure makes trusting the "experts" damn hard.


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## tallyho! (16 October 2012)

Sorry, can't argue anymore.... TGBBO final is on the telly!!!!


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## dafthoss (16 October 2012)

Oh no I missed all the good stuff as I was riding my cripple, oh no sorry, barefoot horse out. But I dont seem to remember him being crippled at all actually...... not on the road or hard core or grass or gravel track...... he must not be a proper horse then. I seem to remember him looking rather horse like though, will check again in the morning just to make sure.


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## ridefast (16 October 2012)

dafthoss said:



			Oh no I missed all the good stuff as I was riding my cripple, oh no sorry, barefoot horse out. But I dont seem to remember him being crippled at all actually...... not on the road or hard core or grass or gravel track...... he must not be a proper horse then. I seem to remember him looking rather horse like though, will check again in the morning just to make sure.
		
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If he makes mooing noises it means he's a cow. It's an easy mistake to make, as cows and horses both have 4 legs and a tail. Horses have metal feet though. Cows moo.


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## ridefast (16 October 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Sorry, can't argue anymore.... TGBBO final is on the telly!!!!
		
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What's that?


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## Horseycrazy (16 October 2012)

Boots, shoes, barefoot, shod, unshod, what ever happened to good old common sense my real issue is brown sauce or red sauce what to do.


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## Oberon (16 October 2012)

Horseycrazy said:



			Boots, shoes, barefoot, shod, unshod, what ever happened to good old common sense my real issue is brown sauce or red sauce what to do.

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I recognise the duck in your avatar 

[YOUTUBE]hmNsvKznMg0[/YOUTUBE]


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## devonlass (16 October 2012)

I reckon some people just get bored and start threads to amuse themselves and watch the fur fly,guess they must be a little bit hacked off that this turned out to be fairly tame and actually informative




brucea said:



			I 

PM me or Oberon if you want to know where to go and we can direct you - but I am one of the admins of the other "place" so fair warning that I won't tolerate posts of the tone of the OP's posts that seek to criticise barefoot horses, trained trimmers, their owners or other hoof care professionals in a non-constructive way.
		
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Can I ask if that is what was the UKNHCP forum?? Always good to know informative places to hang out


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## dafthoss (16 October 2012)

ridefast said:



			If he makes mooing noises it means he's a cow. It's an easy mistake to make, as cows and horses both have 4 legs and a tail. Horses have metal feet though. Cows moo.
		
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Hmm thanks I dont remember him looking like a cow though and he definatly didnt moo  but no metal feet either. I must have some strange new breed 


*wanders out confused scratching head*


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## Goldenstar (16 October 2012)

dafthoss said:



			Hmm thanks I dont remember him looking like a cow though and he definatly didnt moo  but no metal feet either. I must have some strange new breed 


*wanders out confused scratching head*
		
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He's yellow he must be some sort of animated custard hope that helps.


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## ridefast (16 October 2012)

dafthoss said:



			Hmm thanks I dont remember him looking like a cow though and he definatly didnt moo  but no metal feet either. I must have some strange new breed 


*wanders out confused scratching head*
		
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The other possibility is that you have a very large dog


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## Oberon (16 October 2012)

devonlass said:



			Can I ask if that is what was the UKNHCP forum?? Always good to know informative places to hang out

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Yep. When the UKNHCP decided they didn't want to run the forum any more, we set up The Phoenix as a place to brainstorm and share info etc .

Despite a claim by a non member - it's not heavily moderated. There is rarely need to moderate as everyone behaves as an adult on there most of the time 

We welcome shod people too 

http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/index.php?sid=aef674bec72d73a590928efbdc336097


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## Goldenstar (16 October 2012)

Oberon said:



			Yep. When the UKNHCP decided they didn't want to run the forum any more, we set up The Phoenix as a place to brainstorm and share info etc .

Despite a claim by a non member - it's not heavily moderated. There is rarely need to moderate as everyone behaves as an adult on there most of the time 

We welcome shod people too 

http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/index.php?sid=aef674bec72d73a590928efbdc336097

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It's a good place to go but dare I say it less Er fun than here !!!!


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## tallyho! (16 October 2012)

Oberon said:



			We welcome shod people too 

http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/index.php?sid=aef674bec72d73a590928efbdc336097

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Oh no, I'm only allowed socks on the sofa... Will I have to browse in the cold kitchen now?


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## tallyho! (16 October 2012)

ridefast said:



			What's that?
		
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The great British bake off.. Where've you been? Taking photos of feet again?


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## HashRouge (16 October 2012)

I see this thread has "done a HHO"...I read the first page and the last page and have no idea how we got from one to the other


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## Wagtail (16 October 2012)

Palindrome said:



			I have had a look and it seems pretty good. It could have a bit more magnesium, but overall iron is not sky high, copper and zinc look reasonnable (they could be a bit higher) and there are some goodies added like brewer yeast and I guess Profeed are the probiotics. If you don't have any specific problem or high inbalance in your grass/roughage I would think it would work out well.
		
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Thank you. I have some magnesium so will add a small amount of that.


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## Bikerchickone (16 October 2012)

Mine must be a cow then since it's black and white and doesn't have metal feet. Maybe we should start a forum called cow and cat instead?


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## tallyho! (16 October 2012)

bikerchickone said:



			Mine must be a cow then since it's black and white and doesn't have metal feet. Maybe we should start a forum called cow and cat instead? 

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How does the cat fit in?


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## Kat (16 October 2012)

@dafthoss of course you don't have a "proper horse" you daft bu99er. The yellow pony is an improper horse, otherwise known as um a pony! 

Coz you is a titch you can ride a kiddies pony, and everyone knows kiddies ponies don't need shoes coz they just potter about on grass verges......


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## dafthoss (16 October 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			He's yellow he must be some sort of animated custard hope that helps.
		
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ridefast said:



			The other possibility is that you have a very large dog
		
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Both very possible I shall check if he is edible tomorrow and failing that see if I can get him to bark or fetch 

ETA silly me kat I forgot those of us that are vertically challenged cant go faster than walk on our kiddies ponies. (I'm fairly sure he was horse sized today he told me he was a 17hh monster )


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## Goldenstar (16 October 2012)

HashRouge said:



			I see this thread has "done a HHO"...I read the first page and the last page and have no idea how we got from one to the other 

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Yes buts it been raining all day so it's been fun, house is still a tip though.


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## Bikerchickone (16 October 2012)

TallyHo, purely because of the alliteration  although with further thought some of these popular tiny dogs these days are smaller than my cat so could easily be mistaken for being one!


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## Meowy Catkin (17 October 2012)

bikerchickone said:



			Mine must be a cow then since it's black and white and doesn't have metal feet. Maybe we should start a forum called cow and cat instead? 

Click to expand...




tallyho! said:



			How does the cat fit in?
		
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bikerchickone said:



			TallyHo, purely because of the alliteration  although with further thought some of these popular tiny dogs these days are smaller than my cat so could easily be mistaken for being one! 

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Don't be silly. The Cow & Cat would be for those who ride cows out hunting and use cheetahs instead of hounds. You apparently need to give the cheetah a matchy matchy outfit (ear warmers and belt) and explain to it what prey you are hunting today (as shown in the historical document below) but it all seems good to me.


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## princess jasmine (17 October 2012)

I am sure there are pros and cons and all horses are different so why try and force your own opinions on other owners who have happy horses. From my point of view there is only one question for barefoot fanatics - where do you put the studs?


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## TwoStroke (17 October 2012)

princess jasmine said:



			where do you put the studs?
		
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I have several suggestions if you'd like to hear them .


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## Goldenstar (17 October 2012)

princess jasmine said:



			- where do you put the studs?
		
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In a box in the tack room of course.


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## stargirl88 (17 October 2012)

Argh I've lost the page now with the poster who mentioned other forums for barefoot queries?? Can someone pleeeease PM me with the link to it to save me trawling through all this waffle


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## Bikerchickone (17 October 2012)

Ooh Faracat I like your style, thinking big cats lol! 

I can't post a link but I believe the forum mentioned was the phoenix barefoot forum, it should come up if you google it


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## Clava (17 October 2012)

stargirl88 said:



			Argh I've lost the page now with the poster who mentioned other forums for barefoot queries?? Can someone pleeeease PM me with the link to it to save me trawling through all this waffle 

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This one ? http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/index.php


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## Brightbay (17 October 2012)

http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org


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## Oberon (17 October 2012)

princess jasmine said:



			From my point of view there is only one question for barefoot fanatics - where do you put the studs?
		
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## ridefast (17 October 2012)

I thought I had an awesome barefoot horse but I've just realised she's a cow! Dammit.


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## Goldenstar (17 October 2012)

Oh interesting Oberon what sort of boots are those ,do they have a fitting on the bottom to take the stud.
I was never a great stud user when completing until they where doing the big fast stuff.


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## Clava (17 October 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Oh interesting Oberon what sort of boots are those ,do they have a fitting on the bottom to take the stud.
I was never a great stud user when completing until they where doing the big fast stuff.
		
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I would guess they are Gloves and you simply make a hole and screw the stud in (there is a flat plate that goes on the inside )


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## Oberon (17 October 2012)

They are Gloves.

Thread about them on The Phoenix forum .


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## Goldenstar (17 October 2012)

Oberon said:



			They are Gloves.

Thread about them on The Phoenix forum .
		
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Thanks will stop by there later 
Ps I love your little bat thingy.


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## tallyho! (17 October 2012)

Obi n Goldi sittin' in a tree....


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## hessy12 (17 October 2012)

Naturally said:



			The problem with making claims like the ones in your post, is that you risk looking foolish if you are making similar mistakes.

It isn't only barefoot horses who get abcesses, not by a long shot. It is perfectly possible for horses to work hard and long on the roads without shoes, either by proper conditioning of the feet or use of hoof boots. Shod horses can also be footy on stones.
		
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Um, have to completely disagree. My shod horses have never ever been footy. When I tried barefoot, they were all very sore yes I did it under guidance of decent farrier and would never do it again. FWIW, my shod horses have never had absceses either. I personally think if you ride on roads at all, you need shoes on, at least fronts. So it is cruel not to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.


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## Clava (17 October 2012)

hessy12 said:



			I personally think if you ride on roads at all, you need shoes on, at least fronts. So it is cruel not to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
		
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Isn't that a bit sweeping when plenty of horses cope perfectly well working on roads barefoot?


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## Goldenstar (17 October 2012)

hessy12 said:



			Um, have to completely disagree. My shod horses have never ever been footy. When I tried barefoot, they were all very sore yes I did it under guidance of decent farrier and would never do it again. FWIW, my shod horses have never had absceses either. I personally think if you ride on roads at all, you need shoes on, at least fronts. So it is cruel not to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
		
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Your shod horses are never footy but some shod horses can struggle with certain surfaces your shod horses have never had an abbcess fine my BF horse has never had an  abbcess my BF does road work probally four days a week he's sound working about one hour a day .
I am shortly going to up his work and go hunting and see how that goes.
Just because you/ your horses where not suited by BF does not mean my horse can't work on the road very happily.
Why is it cruel for a sound horse to work on a surface it's happy with , that's a sweeping and silly statement.


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## AngieandBen (17 October 2012)

Agree Goldenstar;  Mine work quite happy on the road too and at 22 is better than he was at 18 and shod  like a spring chicken lol.

Hessy12 why do you think your horse was sore without shoes?


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## tallyho! (17 October 2012)

hessy12 said:



			Um, have to completely disagree. My shod horses have never ever been footy. When I tried barefoot, they were all very sore yes I did it under guidance of decent farrier and would never do it again. FWIW, my shod horses have never had absceses either. I personally think if you ride on roads at all, you need shoes on, at least fronts. So it is cruel not to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
		
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Well I disagree with you so what we gonna do?


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## Oberon (17 October 2012)

hessy12 said:



			Um, have to completely disagree. My shod horses have never ever been footy. When I tried barefoot, they were all very sore yes I did it under guidance of decent farrier and would never do it again. FWIW, my shod horses have never had absceses either. I personally think if you ride on roads at all, you need shoes on, at least fronts. So it is cruel not to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
		
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I respect your opinion.

I have a question.....

What happens if you find yourself in the situation that some do, where shoes are no longer an option?


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## Tinseltoes (17 October 2012)

Good point Oberon.My horse is barefoot and is staying that way.


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## Goldenstar (17 October 2012)

Tally HO I like your galloping herd thingy too my skills don't run to extras like that , I like Oberons bat best though I love bats honest I do and I work my horse on the road without shoes wierd that's what I am.


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## Oberon (17 October 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Tally HO I like your galloping herd thingy too my skills don't run to extras like that , I like Oberons bat best though I love bats honest I do and I work my horse on the road without shoes wierd that's what I am.
		
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http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/


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## ridefast (17 October 2012)

hessy12 said:



			Um, have to completely disagree. My shod horses have never ever been footy. When I tried barefoot, they were all very sore yes I did it under guidance of decent farrier and would never do it again. FWIW, my shod horses have never had absceses either. I personally think if you ride on roads at all, you need shoes on, at least fronts. So it is cruel not to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
		
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Um, have to completely disagree. I have worked with lots of different breeds and types of horses and have known plenty to get abscesses, SHOD and UNSHOD. FWIW my unshod horses have never had abscesses nor when they were shod did they ever have abscesses. I personally think if you ride horses on the roads you shouldn't have shoes on, not even fronts. So it is cruel to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.


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## Goldenstar (17 October 2012)

Oh thanks now I need a twelve yo to help. ( child not horse )


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## cptrayes (17 October 2012)

hessy12 said:



			Um, have to completely disagree. My shod horses have never ever been footy. When I tried barefoot, they were all very sore yes I did it under guidance of decent farrier and would never do it again. FWIW, my shod horses have never had absceses either. I personally think if you ride on roads at all, you need shoes on, at least fronts. So it is cruel not to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
		
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I hope this post is remembered the next time the Taliban are accused of telling people that they are mistreating their horses by shoeing them.

Hessy12 you do not know what you are talking about. 

Your farrier would be far from alone among farriers if he did not know how to advise you to get your horses comfortable. 

Cruel to do roadwork without shoes on - don't make me laugh! I hunt mine and he's the soundest horse in the field on rubble farm tracks and miles and miles of road (3 hours mostly roadwork last Saturday).

Please do get your facts right before you tell people what is and is not cruel.


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## Daisy2 (17 October 2012)

I have two barefoot horses both out at grass 24/7 and have been for a few years however, we always boot up to ride as the tracks are not grassy like the  field. People just need to understand that a horses hooves adapt to there environment. You cant ride a horse carefree on stoney tracks barefoot if the horse spends its days living on soft ground its just common sense. That's where folks fall down IMHO. But hey its not their fault its a learning process, I love it!


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## Skippys Mum (17 October 2012)

hessy12 said:



			FWIW, my shod horses have never had absceses either. I personally think if you ride on roads at all, you need shoes on, at least fronts. So it is cruel not to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
		
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Arnie has never had an abcess since his shoes have come off 11 months ago (judging by the first page we are Unshod rather than Barefoot cos its the farrier that does his feet ).  He had plenty when he was shod??

I guess I am just lucky - mind you, I obviously dont do too much roadwork because so far his feet are not down to bleeding stumps.  I'm only doing on average 15 miles a week.  We fit it in around our SJ competitions and lessons. Oh, and around our xc sessions.  Thats if we are not off down the beach for a gallop.


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## ester (17 October 2012)

I feel awfully cruel now poor pony with a mean owner who won't let him have any shoes.... and expect him to go on the road    
....








.. oh and no abcesses here yet  ... the shod horse has had a corn however


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## tallyho! (17 October 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Tally HO I like your galloping herd thingy too my skills don't run to extras like that , I like Oberons bat best though I love bats honest I do and I work my horse on the road without shoes wierd that's what I am.
		
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Yay! (I just copied and pasted from a website I shall not name and it worked!!!!) Try it.... copy and paste the code off my sig and it should work!


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## devonlass (17 October 2012)

Oberon said:



			Yep. When the UKNHCP decided they didn't want to run the forum any more, we set up The Phoenix as a place to brainstorm and share info etc .

http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/index.php?sid=aef674bec72d73a590928efbdc336097

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Thanks for that I thought it probably was but good to know for sure.I was a member of the original UKNHCP forum,but can't remember if registered for the new one,will pop in and check when have more time



Goldenstar said:



			It's a good place to go but dare I say it less Er fun than here !!!!
		
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The problem is I have a really low tolerance level for stupidity and ignorance (I know a fault on my part but we are who we are) so barefoot threads on here invariably drive me up the pole.



hessy12 said:



			Um, have to completely disagree. My shod horses have never ever been footy. When I tried barefoot, they were all very sore yes I did it under guidance of decent farrier and would never do it again. FWIW, my shod horses have never had absceses either. I personally think if you ride on roads at all, you need shoes on, at least fronts. So it is cruel not to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
		
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The perfect example of my thoughts above,I can feel my tolerance levels decreasing as I type

I notice your siggy mentions a love for appys hessy12?? I must introduce you to my spotty lad.You'll be amazed of course as you see him trotting past you on the ROAD with his BARE tootsies 
I'll also introduce you to my welsh cob.Shame you couldn't have met him when he was shod as you clearly prefer that,you'd have known it was him BTW as he would have been the one shuffling along landing on his toes with every step.Now though he'll be the one just behind my mad spotty (spotty is always ahead as he's a right boy racer despite being terribly uncomfortable due to no shoes of course) trotting along with his equally bare feet on the *shock horror* roads!!

Never really had an issue with abscesses BTW,only dealt with one or two and don't think having shod or unshod feet were relevant TBH.



ridefast said:



			I personally think if you ride horses on the roads you shouldn't have shoes on, not even fronts. So it is cruel to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
		
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My thoughts as well.Bet my lad having been barefoot most of his life won't suffer the joint and degenerative conditions that many others do.Long term health of this nature is actually my first and foremost reason for being barefoot and for staying so.


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## Holly Hocks (17 October 2012)

hessy12 said:



			I personally think if you ride on roads at all, you need shoes on, at least fronts. So it is cruel not to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
		
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Really?  My unshod TB would beg to differ on that one - especially when she is happily striding out down steep tarmac roads while shod horses are slipping and shuffling down the edge of the road trying to stay upright.  I actually don't have any problem with shod horses at all, but I think it's a bit of a sweeping statement to say that horses doing roadwork need shoes!


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## maccachic (17 October 2012)

My bloody BF horse grows his feet quicker the more road work he does, really inconsiderate he is.

Studs who needs studs mine has suction cups can't add a pic but he jumped up to 1m at the weekend in what was slippery going for the shod horses, he didn't slip once.  

Oh and he hunts, events, dressages and does road work even at trot.  He is also a Tb who HAD flat feet.

If you want to check your diet is balanced I have found www.feedxl.com really useful.


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## Pale Rider (17 October 2012)

hessy12 said:



			Um, have to completely disagree. My shod horses have never ever been footy. When I tried barefoot, they were all very sore yes I did it under guidance of decent farrier and would never do it again. FWIW, my shod horses have never had absceses either. I personally think if you ride on roads at all, you need shoes on, at least fronts. So it is cruel not to shoe if you expect horses to do that type of work.
		
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Sorry to join the bandwagon Hessy, but this post of yours epitomises the misconceptions so many people have about shod horses.
Shoes dont protect horses feet they weaken them, cause damage and allow injury and serious disease to develop. Your horse is never footy because it cannot feel its feet. Of course it will have had abscesses just like any other, but, unless they are very severe a shod horse wont feel them.  Barefoot horses feel everything, like they are supposed to do. The feet feel the ground so they know where it is safe to put their feet. Shod horses just crash down on anything. They dont feel as the blood supply is restricted so the feet are numb. The restriction of the blood supply causes weak lamina and poor development of the all important digital cushion, filing the already thin sole makes it thinner and weaker.


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## maccachic (17 October 2012)

Just because I walk carefully on stones barefoot doesn't mean I am lame.  I made an effort last summer to be barefoot myself as much as I could - I have flat arches one is non existant, at the end of summer my arches had improved a lot and I didn't get as sore a fett from standing around as I would normally.  I am seriously considering investing in some Vibram 5 fingers or something similar.

Does any one else find there horse knowledge trickels through to there own life?  Bf as above, my diet is now a lot more natural, I am a bit more careful about what I put on my skin etc


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## Pale Rider (17 October 2012)

maccachic said:



			Just because I walk carefully on stones barefoot doesn't mean I am lame.  I made an effort last summer to be barefoot myself as much as I could - I have flat arches one is non existant, at the end of summer my arches had improved a lot and I didn't get as sore a fett from standing around as I would normally.  I am seriously considering investing in some Vibram 5 fingers or something similar.

Does any one else find there horse knowledge trickels through to there own life?  Bf as above, my diet is now a lot more natural, I am a bit more careful about what I put on my skin etc
		
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Yes, the more you get into this stuff the more it affects everything you do.


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## Kallibear (17 October 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Shoes dont protect horses feet they weaken them, cause damage and allow injury and serious disease to develop. .
		
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A sweeping statement. POOR shoeing causes that. Good shoeing doesn't do much damage although it does prevent the horse from developing foot structures.



Pale Rider said:



			Your horse is never footy because it cannot feel its feet. Of course it will have had abscesses just like any other, but, unless they are very severe a shod horse wont feel them.  Barefoot horses feel everything, like they are supposed to do. The feet feel the ground so they know where it is safe to put their feet. Shod horses just crash down on anything. They dont feel as the blood supply is restricted so the feet are numb. .
		
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This I refuse to beleive. There is evidence that blood flow is reduced but i've seen no evidence that it makes their feet numb and sensation-less. It's outlandish statements like this that put peoples back up about barefoot! 




Pale Rider said:



			The restriction of the blood supply causes weak lamina and poor development of the all important digital cushion, filing the already thin sole makes it thinner and weaker.
		
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Blood flow restriction cannot be that bad else their feet would eventually fall off. It's use, or lack, of that dictates growth and strength. The body is very much 'use it or loose it'. If it's not stimulated, it won't grow. That also applies to blood vessels, so that's probabaly why the blood flow is less: the shoe doesn't 'restrict' or 'kill off' blood supply. Instead, as it's not being used and flexed as it should, it's not needed so it atrophies. 



Genetics DO play a part in foot quality and it's silly to say otherwise. It's like saying all horses will grow a big thick winter coat if you force them. Some just won't: they'd die in the freezing temps! Ditto poor teeth. Or rubbish manes and tails. 

Some horses are born with excellent feet, need very little conditioning to make them into rock crunchers and can take all the nutritional rubbish you throw at them. Others are born with poor, weak feet that need a lot of time and effort put into them to make them any use, and careful management of conditionng and feeding to allow them to work barefoot. The only thing that dictates which is which is genetics and breeding!

I've got 2 youngsters I've had since not much more than yearlings. One has 'genetically good feet'. From a baby he's been rock crunching, beautiful neat little feet that are concave, no cracks, flares or splits. Doesn't really matter what he eats or the conditioning he does, he's happy over everything. 

I have another who's had the exact same lifestyple and similar feeding and conditioning. His feet are nowhere near as good. They're much more flat and flared and prone to chipping. And he's much more sensitive to diet. 

Neither have ever been or are likely to be shod. I will need to put a lot more time and effort into Roo's feet than I ever did Piper. It doesn't mean he CAN'T work barefoot it just means, due to genetics, he is starting at a massive disadvantage and it's going to be a damn sight harder  Roo is a TB x.......

I'd have said that their _genetic ability _to deal with feed and diet, and the affect it has on their feet, is a far bigger factor in foot quality that the foot genetics directly (for want of a better term). That's where TB and such fall down, genetically: they don't deal with food as well as native and good doers (which is clearly obvious from the fact they're not good doers!) and therefore have many more issues with their feet. 


And incidently I have a horse who hunts, common rides and competes barefoot. I've not had a shod horse in many many years. Piper will easily do 20miles road work a week, much of it in trot. Oh, and some canter: little bare tootsies are fabulous shock absorbers


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## dressedkez (17 October 2012)

Horses for courses? 
My TB's lose a front shoe and the moment they do, it is as if I have inserted tin tacs in their frogs / soles.....(wimps?) 
There is a place for bare foot, and that is in the hands of those who are terribly experienced and have a knowledgable bare foot farrier. Of course we have all had native ponies and cobs who have feet like iron, but also we see animals like TB's who have been shod since they were yearlings and sufffering if they are bare foot. I am riding a new horse - 5 year old just backed IDXTB who has only had one set of shoes in his life, when he was 4. I rode him out to try (last month) and he was foot sore, so for now have put fronts on him only - and he seems OK on his hinds. We have a stoney yard - so at an immediate disadvantage. 
Shoes like bits - were introduced many centuries ago (as part of civilisation, I suppose.....) we can possibly enshew both - but, I am guessing they were developed for reason - and our forebares who relied on the horse for going about everyday business, other than recreation, I suppose evolved a method that worked for them? Going barefoot should never be seen as a cost cutting measure (she says when her farrier charges £70 per set plus VAT) and when we had Pointers in training we were having new sets every 3 weeks - ouch! But I understand (from those who do it) that bare foot horses need attention about every 4 weeks too - and I expect that comes in at circa £50 - £60 too......?
Let the debate rumble on - and so glad that this one has - at is controversial, and glad it has been allowed to runs its course!


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## orionstar (18 October 2012)

It's been 6 weeks since my sensitive wBxtb had her shoes off. I bought her from a field ontop of a moor in Lancashire as a 3 year old and the first thing she did when arriving was stand on a stone and limp to the yard. Since then she has had an excellent diet full of hoof suppliments etc etc, various blood tests for you name it and she is now 6. The farrier is very pleased with her feet, her sole and frog have hardened, but she still dosent want to walk through the stream across the stones to the yard, so as soon as the hoof angle improves under the new managementand is shod I will look forward to a horse that will happily walk through the stream and across the tracks in the woods because horses should walk happily. Ancient Arab's wrapped leather around their horses feet for a reason and Romans invented the hippo sandal around the same time as they started to put in hard roads.


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## Pale Rider (18 October 2012)

Kallibear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Rider  
Shoes dont protect horses feet they weaken them, cause damage and allow injury and serious disease to develop. . 

A sweeping statement. POOR shoeing causes that. Good shoeing doesn't do much damage although it does prevent the horse from developing foot structures.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pale Rider  
Your horse is never footy because it cannot feel its feet. Of course it will have had abscesses just like any other, but, unless they are very severe a shod horse wont feel them. Barefoot horses feel everything, like they are supposed to do. The feet feel the ground so they know where it is safe to put their feet. Shod horses just crash down on anything. They dont feel as the blood supply is restricted so the feet are numb. . 

This I refuse to beleive. There is evidence that blood flow is reduced but i've seen no evidence that it makes their feet numb and sensation-less. It's outlandish statements like this that put peoples back up about barefoot! 



Originally Posted by Pale Rider  
The restriction of the blood supply causes weak lamina and poor development of the all important digital cushion, filing the already thin sole makes it thinner and weaker. 

Blood flow restriction cannot be that bad else their feet would eventually fall off. It's use, or lack, of that dictates growth and strength. The body is very much 'use it or loose it'. If it's not stimulated, it won't grow. That also applies to blood vessels, so that's probabaly why the blood flow is less: the shoe doesn't 'restrict' or 'kill off' blood supply. Instead, as it's not being used and flexed as it should, it's not needed so it atrophies. 



Genetics DO play a part in foot quality and it's silly to say otherwise. It's like saying all horses will grow a big thick winter coat if you force them. Some just won't: they'd die in the freezing temps! Ditto poor teeth. Or rubbish manes and tails. 

Some horses are born with excellent feet, need very little conditioning to make them into rock crunchers and can take all the nutritional rubbish you throw at them. Others are born with poor, weak feet that need a lot of time and effort put into them to make them any use, and careful management of conditionng and feeding to allow them to work barefoot. The only thing that dictates which is which is genetics and breeding!

I've got 2 youngsters I've had since not much more than yearlings. One has 'genetically good feet'. From a baby he's been rock crunching, beautiful neat little feet that are concave, no cracks, flares or splits. Doesn't really matter what he eats or the conditioning he does, he's happy over everything. 

I have another who's had the exact same lifestyple and similar feeding and conditioning. His feet are nowhere near as good. They're much more flat and flared and prone to chipping. And he's much more sensitive to diet. 

Neither have ever been or are likely to be shod. I will need to put a lot more time and effort into Roo's feet than I ever did Piper. It doesn't mean he CAN'T work barefoot it just means, due to genetics, he is starting at a massive disadvantage and it's going to be a damn sight harder  Roo is a TB x.......

I'd have said that their genetic ability to deal with feed and diet, and the affect it has on their feet, is a far bigger factor in foot quality that the foot genetics directly (for want of a better term). That's where TB and such fall down, genetically: they don't deal with food as well as native and good doers (which is clearly obvious from the fact they're not good doers!) and therefore have many more issues with their feet. 


And incidently I have a horse who hunts, common rides and competes barefoot. I've not had a shod horse in many many years. Piper will easily do 20miles road work a week, much of it in trot. Oh, and some canter: little bare tootsies are fabulous shock absorbers 



The horses hoof is designed to expand when it takes weight and contract when it lifts its foot and the weight comes off. This is because the hooves are like ancillary mechanical pumps which assist in the circulation of blood back up the leg, lessening the workload of the heart. By putting a steel shoe on the hoof whether it is done well or not, has the effect of completely restricting the expansion and contraction of the hoof. If it cannot expand, then the volume of blood allowed into the capsule is restricted. Thermal imaging of a shod hoof compared to that of an unshod hoof shows that the flow of blood to the hoof is restricted. How on the one hand you can say poor shoeing damages the foot, but good shoeing only prevents the horse from developing foot structures, which isnt much damage is a complete contradiction. Well developed foot structures are essential for a healthy hoof, particularly the digital cushion, which in every shod hoof Ive dissected has indeed suffered a high degree of atrophy. The hoof wall is easily removed from a shod horse, but requires a lot of effort pliers and a hammer from an unshod hoof,  further evidence of weak under developed lamina, which results from shoes, well applied or not.
Take shoes off of a shod horse and just watch it, or put shoes on and watch them. You can see the numbing effect of shoes. Of course their feet are numb, shod horses dont know theyve got laminitis until its severe, it is certainly not an outlandish statement and it may well put peoples back up, but this is a reaction to doing something which deep down we all know is fundamentally wrong. 
Genetics may well play some part in hoof quality, but far less than you are trying to suggest. When a horse is born it doesnt have a hoof as such, but a mass of tissue and receptors which rapidly forms a hoof based on what is required by the foal in the environment it has been born into.
Basically, the reasons people give for shoeing are frankly ridiculous and a mere cover-up, for poor management in every respect.
Im not surprised by the fact that you have a horse which can do all you say barefoot, thats what they are all supposed to do and could do given the opportunity.


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## hairycob (18 October 2012)

The attitude you see in those last two paragraphs is what puts people who are thinking about it off going barefoot. Arrogant & holier than thou.
A (very well known & praised on here by the taliban) farrier who does about 2/3 barefoot has been coming to 2 horses on my yards.  He told one of them that he uses the hoof tester every time on all his barefoot clients but doesn't for the shod horses because the owners don't care if their horses feet hurt. To me that says either
1) Either the hoof testing is useful but he doesn't do the best for 1/3 of his clients - the 3rd he thinks don't care about their horses - shocking attitude.
2) It isn't really usefull but he panders to that holier than thou attitude that so many barefooters have.
3) He lied, he does use it on all his client but still panders to "that" attitude. 
Whichever it is it doesn't exactly fill me with confidence about his ethics & so I would not have this much praised & well known practitioner near my horses barefoot or not.
My horses have variously been unshod/fronts only/shod depending on the horse & it's needs at the time. My horses have a "barefoot" diet even though both are shod at the moment because I believe it's a good "whole horse" diet. If anyone can manage to make me feel like running away screaming they are not going to convert very many people to try barefoot are they.
It's a shame because this thread had actually started to develop into one of the most rational debates I have seen - ok the nearest I have ever found.


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## AngieandBen (18 October 2012)

dressedkez said:



			Horses for courses? 
My TB's lose a front shoe and the moment they do, it is as if I have inserted tin tacs in their frogs / soles.....(wimps?) 
There is a place for bare foot, and that is in the hands of those who are terribly experienced and have a knowledgable bare foot farrier. Of course we have all had native ponies and cobs who have feet like iron, but also we see animals like TB's who have been shod since they were yearlings and sufffering if they are bare foot. I am riding a new horse - 5 year old just backed IDXTB who has only had one set of shoes in his life, when he was 4. I rode him out to try (last month) and he was foot sore, so for now have put fronts on him only - and he seems OK on his hinds. We have a stoney yard - so at an immediate disadvantage. 
Shoes like bits - were introduced many centuries ago (as part of civilisation, I suppose.....) we can possibly enshew both - but, I am guessing they were developed for reason - and our forebares who relied on the horse for going about everyday business, other than recreation, I suppose evolved a method that worked for them? Going barefoot should never be seen as a cost cutting measure (she says when her farrier charges £70 per set plus VAT) and when we had Pointers in training we were having new sets every 3 weeks - ouch! But I understand (from those who do it) that bare foot horses need attention about every 4 weeks too - and I expect that comes in at circa £50 - £60 too......?
Let the debate rumble on - and so glad that this one has - at is controversial, and glad it has been allowed to runs its course!
		
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Many, like mine many self trim to an extent and I only have a trimmer every 8 weeks to tidy up.  Cost is £40, much cheaper, but thats not the reason I took mine barefoot;  He had been kicked very very hard in the stomach by a farrier ( who has since emigrated,  good job )  he was and still is petrified of them, but my trimmer lady, he falls asleep   Anyhow, as he is now 22 he has a new lease of life being barefoot, he has no joint supplements other that linseed and often does pleasure rides and gallops on the beach........I'm hoping for many more years with him

One of my liveries has had heart bars on her horse for nearly a year at a cost of £130 every 6 weeks  ( has been lame for two years with soft tissue damage in the foot ) she has finally took the plunge and had his shoes off, and although footy he is booted all round for hacks and again has a spring in his step and is much happier, its only been 6 weeks since they came off so early days, but fingers crossed he will now grow a good healthy hoof


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## tallyho! (18 October 2012)

maccachic said:



			Just because I walk carefully on stones barefoot doesn't mean I am lame.  I made an effort last summer to be barefoot myself as much as I could - I have flat arches one is non existant, at the end of summer my arches had improved a lot and I didn't get as sore a fett from standing around as I would normally.  I am seriously considering investing in some Vibram 5 fingers or something similar.

Does any one else find there horse knowledge trickels through to there own life?  Bf as above, my diet is now a lot more natural, I am a bit more careful about what I put on my skin etc
		
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OMG do it! Get the Vibrams... best thing I ever did for my feet. My little toenails have actually GROWN back!!!! I have endless fun painting five toenails on each foot now rather than painting a little toenail ON.... is that gross? Sorry, didn't mean to be


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## AngieandBen (18 October 2012)

lol thats fine Tallyho, not had my breakfast yet 


Incidently I have had both shod and unshod ponies and in 11 years none of them has ever had an abcess


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## tallyho! (18 October 2012)

orionstar said:



			It's been 6 weeks since my sensitive wBxtb had her shoes off. I bought her from a field ontop of a moor in Lancashire as a 3 year old and the first thing she did when arriving was stand on a stone and limp to the yard. Since then she has had an excellent diet full of hoof suppliments etc etc, various blood tests for you name it and she is now 6. The farrier is very pleased with her feet, her sole and frog have hardened, but she still dosent want to walk through the stream across the stones to the yard, so as soon as the hoof angle improves under the new managementand is shod I will look forward to a horse that will happily walk through the stream and across the tracks in the woods because horses should walk happily. Ancient Arab's wrapped leather around their horses feet for a reason and Romans invented the hippo sandal around the same time as they started to put in hard roads.
		
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Sorry but 6 weeks and you expect her to be walking on stones already... they say you need knowledge as well as patience. Prime example of when one shouldn't attempt barefoot. Why did you even bother if you already knew you would fail because they found leather poultices in ancient Rome?


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## tallyho! (18 October 2012)

hairycob said:



			The attitude you see in those last two paragraphs is what puts people who are thinking about it off going barefoot. Arrogant & holier than thou.
A (very well known & praised on here by the taliban) farrier who does about 2/3 barefoot has been coming to 2 horses on my yards.  He told one of them that he uses the hoof tester every time on all his barefoot clients but doesn't for the shod horses because the owners don't care if their horses feet hurt. To me that says either
1) Either the hoof testing is useful but he doesn't do the best for 1/3 of his clients - the 3rd he thinks don't care about their horses - shocking attitude.
2) It isn't really usefull but he panders to that holier than thou attitude that so many barefooters have.
3) He lied, he does use it on all his client but still panders to "that" attitude. 
Whichever it is it doesn't exactly fill me with confidence about his ethics & so I would not have this much praised & well known practitioner near my horses barefoot or not.
My horses have variously been unshod/fronts only/shod depending on the horse & it's needs at the time. My horses have a "barefoot" diet even though both are shod at the moment because I believe it's a good "whole horse" diet. If anyone can manage to make me feel like running away screaming they are not going to convert very many people to try barefoot are they.
It's a shame because this thread had actually started to develop into one of the most rational debates I have seen - ok the nearest I have ever found.
		
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Oh good God, if what people say here can set you back from making such decisions for your animal, you need to get out more love. If you think this is about CONVERTING people, then you are mistaken. It's about the truth. I spend my time trying to stop people who think they can just whip shoes off and carry on as normal. People don't understand there can be a lot more to it. I wouldn't try and persuade you because you sound like one of the people who shouldn't try barefoot. And yes, accuse me of being whatever you like but barefoot is not something you enter into lightly... definitely not if you think a forum is the place to start. So no, don't do it or else it WILL be cruel.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (18 October 2012)

I'd just like to say that most of my statements were very similar to all the negative shoer's on here. 

When it looked like Heidi was going to need wedges I said right, this isn't going to happen. Hence forth lots of my own research and reading all the bare threads without making stupid snotty one sided comments. 

Thank you Barefoot Taliban! And mostly to CPTrayes. I sent her pics privately because I didn't want to be ridiculed on here. She has been super. 

Anyway, my horses have benefitted the most!

Terri


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## Alyth (18 October 2012)

Equilibrium Ireland said:



			I'd just like to say that most of my statements were very similar to all the negative shoer's on here. 

When it looked like Heidi was going to need wedges I said right, this isn't going to happen. Hence forth lots of my own research and reading all the bare threads without making stupid snotty one sided comments. 

Thank you Barefoot Taliban! And mostly to CPTrayes. I sent her pics privately because I didn't want to be ridiculed on here. She has been super. 

Anyway, my horses have benefitted the most!

Terri
		
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Well done!  Congratulations for being open minded enough to research and consider an alternative.  To the  "barefoot taliban" congratulations on reasoned argument and sticking it out!  It's a shame that those who don't know/understand don't know they don't know!!  The evidence is growing all the time, unlike the arguments for shoeing.....and I would love to know where to find "scientific proof" that shoeing is good for a horse!!


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## Pale Rider (18 October 2012)

Just like to say that I'm sorry if part of my last post upset anyone, it certainly wasn't meant to be upsetting or rude.

Just  frustration really, at constantly going over the same ground, whilst the same reasons for shoeing are trotted out (no pun intended) year after year.

When you know something works and  is beneficial you really want everyone and their horses to share.


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## ridefast (18 October 2012)

The only time my current horse ever "needed" shoes was when she was on grazing that was contaminated by pesticides, I just didn't twig at the time and put fronts on, which didn't make a whole lot of difference and the minute they came off she started walking again instead of shuffiling. Change of grazing and more attention paid to diet means we can walk and trot on the roads, stoney roads, and sometimes break into an accidental canter with no negative consequences. The yard I am on is all barefoot, most are tbs and warmbloods with no problems, one has recovered from very severe navicular and underrun heels. It's not just dependant on breed, every horse CAN go without shoes so long as it is done properly


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## cptrayes (18 October 2012)

Kallibear said:



			A sweeping statement. POOR shoeing causes that. Good shoeing doesn't do much damage although it does prevent the horse from developing foot structures.
		
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I don't think this is true Kallibear, but we are all still waiting for more research. In the only peer reviewed study so far, a single cycle of good shoeing reduced the circumference of the coronet band significantly, and altered the toe angle as well.

In unpublished research, foot dissections show that shod horses have lateral catilages VERY significantly smaller than those of shod horses.

And any old idiot can poke the digital cushion of 100 shod horses and 100 working barefoot horses and tell that there is a very big difference in quality of that vital structure.

Lastly, unshod working feet tend to grow at around twice the rate of shod horses in the same work, which does seem to me to indicate that something is being compromised somewhere.

The fact is that most horses appear to go through life shod with no problems, but that does not mean that their feet have not been adversely affected by shoes. Who knows what aches and pains they put up with without complaining?  Anecdotally, yet again, the barefoot world is littered with badly behaved horses whose temperaments changed when their shoes were removed.


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## cptrayes (18 October 2012)

OK lets go back over some more old ground because people can't understand why shoes were developed in the first place if they weren't needed.

They were needed.

They were needed because horses were machines who had to earn their living.

They were needed because many horses cannot do that if:

- they are fed a diet high in carbohydrates, including too much grass and high grain feeds.
- they stand in stable muck and ammonia from urine breakdown
- their workload varies massively from day to day (I need the carriage for a 40 mile trip to a party tonight James.)


Our horses are not now machines, they are leisure animals. If their feet are a little soft from standing in the wet it does not kill us to boot up or not ride, as it did if you lost a horse from the battle, or your hackney couldn't earn the money from cab fares to feed your children.

Times have changed. So should our ideas regarding hoof care for horses.


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## TigerTail (18 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			OK lets go back over some more old ground because people can't understand why shoes were developed in the first place if they weren't needed.

They were needed.

They were needed because horses were machines who had to earn their living.

They were needed because many horses cannot do that if:

- they are fed a diet high in carbohydrates, including too much grass and high grain feeds.
- they stand in stable muck and ammonia from urine breakdown
- their workload varies massively from day to day (I need the carriage for a 40 mile trip to a party tonight James.)


Our horses are not now machines, they are leisure animals. If their feet are a little soft from standing in the wet it does not kill us to boot up or not ride, as it did if you lost a horse from the battle, or your hackney couldn't earn the money from cab fares to feed your children.

Times have changed. So should our ideas regarding hoof care for horses.
		
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And so that when they kicked a man in battle he stayed down, they effectively had another 4 men to add to their armies with each shod horse which were trained to kick and trample


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## LucyPriory (18 October 2012)

Mind you when my old bare 50 mile a week on the road did her one and only kick on another horse the damage was substantial. I wasn't pleased about the kick, but her hooves rang like iron on a hard surface


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## Pale Rider (18 October 2012)

I tend to agree with those who put the development of shoes down to military origins. We are talking about the medieval period, when men and horses were covered in steel armour, a simple step to tip the horses feet with steel shoes making lethal weapons of them.
I also think that there would have been an increase in the level of lameness though bacterial causes at around this time, with horses being stabled within castles and keeps, which would have seen some improvement through shoeing.
Working rather than military horses, were not shod as a matter of course, my own grandfathers draught horses were not shod, even the ploughing teams, as it wasn't necessary.
Few horses were continually shod as is the fashion today, most horses, like hunters, hacks and vanners, often spent time unshod. Times have changed, fortunately nothing stays the same and things are changing for the modern horse.


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## Goldenstar (18 October 2012)

Morning all still playing nicely ?


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## Bikerchickone (18 October 2012)

Sort of still playing nicely! Lucy has said it for me, out this weekend with a friend and her shod endurance horse I noticed as we trotted along the road that my lad's hooves were making almost as much noise on the tarmac as hers were. We're another barefooter who does around 15 miles of roadwork a week too. I hope that doesn't make me cruel, but unfortunately for those of you who think I am being cruel, I can't seem to stop my lad wanting to trot or even canter everywhere on the roads!  I don't actually ask him to canter on roads as I wouldn't like to meet a car going so fast but given the choice he'd clearly like to do so! Does that sound like his hooves are sore?


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## Kallibear (18 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I don't think this is true Kallibear, but we are all still waiting for more research. In the only peer reviewed study so far, a single cycle of good shoeing reduced the circumference of the coronet band significantly, and altered the toe angle as well.

In unpublished research, foot dissections show that shod horses have lateral catilages VERY significantly smaller than those of shod horses.

And any old idiot can poke the digital cushion of 100 shod horses and 100 working barefoot horses and tell that there is a very big difference in quality of that vital structure.

Lastly, unshod working feet tend to grow at around twice the rate of shod horses in the same work, which does seem to me to indicate that something is being compromised somewhere.

The fact is that most horses appear to go through life shod with no problems, but that does not mean that their feet have not been adversely affected by shoes. Who knows what aches and pains they put up with without complaining?  Anecdotally, yet again, the barefoot world is littered with badly behaved horses whose temperaments changed when their shoes were removed.
		
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But I suspect it's far more "use it or loose it" than active damage. If you dragged a 3yr old out, who'd done naff all but stand in a soft field, and nailed shoes to it, I doubt you'd see much change. Totally different from a working barefoot horse who now stops using it's feet due to shoes. A bit like when my arm was in a cast from breaking it. I ended up with a skinny, rather useless arm afterwards that'd atrophied away due to lack of use. That however does not mean the cast actively damaged my arm. There was always the chance it COULD have caused damage: if it'd been positioned wrong there was a chance I could have ended up with a squint arm and muscle, tendon and bone damage. Rather like poor shoeing. Good shoeing does not let them use their feet to full potential so the structures atrophy (or never develop in the first place, if they are umlucky enough to be shod from a very young age) which of course is not a good thing but I don't think it actively damages the foot. Which is why you can usually whip the shoes off a well shod foot, build the structures back up quickly and never look back. Pale Riders attitude that you're killing your horse by shoeing it is evangelical brainwashing at it's worse and extremely off putting for those with less extreme veiws. No wonder there are so many vitriolic anti-baarefooters around!

Of course the problem is detecting poor shoeing that is damaging the feet, BEFORE it becomes a serious issue. They all look very similar!


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## Clava (18 October 2012)

Kallibear said:



			But I suspect it's far more "use it or loose it" than active damage. If you dragged a 3yr old out, who'd done naff all but stand in a soft field, and nailed shoes to it, I doubt you'd see much change.
!
		
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But it is likely that nailing those shoes on to a 3 yr old would then prevent the internal hoof structures form growing and developing which they do until the age of 7 in some horses and that growth of internal structures may then be permenantly impaired.


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## cptrayes (18 October 2012)

Two problems Kallibear. I can't distinguish between the cast damaging your arm and loss of use damaging your arm when it was the cast that was preventing the use. Loss of use due to shoes causes damage. The loss of use, and therefore the damage, is caused by the shoes.

I also disagree with you that it is only poor shoeing that damages feet. One of my horses was shod perfectly. Heel support, hoof/pastern axis alignment, right size, balanced, etc. I was complimented on it. But it did not prevent him from developign such thin soles that he could not walk up stony tracks. 

Removing his shoes, with no diet changes, caused his soles to thicken up to such an extent that he could do the same tracks without shoes that he was unable to do in shoes.

Some horses, albeit a minority, are damaged by shoeing, good or bad.


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## laura_nash (18 October 2012)

pip6 said:



			I sent another mare on breeding loan to a very good stud this summer. Whilst there a retired farrier did barefoot trimming on her (I did not know they had this ethos). She wasn't happy, & didn't take, so I got her back in July. When I collected her she had just been 'trimmed' a few days before. She was so lame & in pain she could barely put one foot in front the other even on grass. [..] My girl may well be unshod again over the winter (trimmed by my farrier), but I will never use someone who purports to use barefoot principles.
		
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When my brother was a year old he had a hernia which a GP misdiagnosed.  As a result he nearly died, and only survived because an off-duty A&E nurse recognised the problem.  Of course due to this I will never go see a GP but always go to A&E for everything because I will never use anyone who purports to follow the principles of preventative medicine.  

Makes about as much sense as the statement above!


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## laura_nash (18 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I can't distinguish between the cast damaging your arm and loss of use damaging your arm when it was the cast that was preventing the use. Loss of use due to shoes causes damage. The loss of use, and therefore the damage, is caused by the shoes.
		
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I think Kallibear is distinguishing between temporary damage due to atrophy and lack of use which (especially if only short term) can be completely reversed fairly easily, and serious / long-term damage that may not be completely reversible (at least not easily).

So for instance a previously bare horse can be well shod for a season and providing it is given a few weeks reduced work (or partially booted work) to allow the feet to get back into shape once the shoes come off again there is no harm done.  On the other hand if it is badly shod for that same period it could be a different story (the shoes may have actively damaged the hooves).


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## mcnaughty (18 October 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			.
Farriery is a black art, and average farriers credited with a lot they don't deserve.
		
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Not sure any farrier after years and years of training would agree with their skills being referred to as "black art"!

As for the generalisation that barefoot endurance horses are "turned away for weeks" because they are lame after competing - is it not true that they are rigorously vetted through every stage?

Believe both sides to this ongoing and very boring argument need to stop exaggerating and stick to the facts!  Even better - get on with your lives and stop trying to thrust your beliefs down someone else's throat!!!!


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## Brightbay (18 October 2012)

mcnaughty said:



			Not sure any farrier after years and years of training would agree with their skills being referred to as "black art"!

As for the generalisation that barefoot endurance horses are "turned away for weeks" because they are lame after competing - is it not true that they are rigorously vetted through every stage?

Believe both sides to this ongoing and very boring argument need to stop exaggerating and stick to the facts!  Even better - get on with your lives and stop trying to thrust your beliefs down someone else's throat!!!!
		
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Agree with the last statement 100%.  Extreme barefootiness is almost as annoying to me as the Shoes Rox Klan.  

WRT the Black Art comment, I would simply say that whatever farriery is, it certainly wouldn't fit any description of a science.


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## tallyho! (18 October 2012)

laura_nash said:



			I think Kallibear is distinguishing between temporary damage due to atrophy and lack of use which (especially if only short term) can be completely reversed fairly easily, and serious / long-term damage that may not be completely reversible (at least not easily).

So for instance a previously bare horse can be well shod for a season and providing it is given a few weeks reduced work (or partially booted work) to allow the feet to get back into shape once the shoes come off again there is no harm done.  On the other hand if it is badly shod for that same period it could be a different story (the shoes may have actively damaged the hooves).
		
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I'm struggling to find sense in that above. 

If you buy/read any old farriery off amazon, pretty much from the foreward it says "shoes cause damage".

It doesn't say "bad shoes causes damage".

Mine was badly shod and still managed to work bf in a short timeframe so that argument hasn't purported itself with that hypothesis.


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## Littlelegs (18 October 2012)

Mine was shod from 5, even though sound without cos it was just what was done years ago. She's now 23, & a good few years ago the farrier suggested trying her without. Having always been sound when she lost one, it wasn't that suprising she didn't go through a transistion period. Bit footy on really stony ground at first, but easily got round. So evidently good shoeing hasn't done any harm. But knowing what I do now I wish I had never shod her, because I think it comes down to luck more than anything. 
   I'm not saying I wouldn't shoe any horse ever again. But, I'd want to know exactly why it needed shoes, & only then if the actual cause couldn't be solved.


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## tallyho! (18 October 2012)

TB, started as 2yo filly finished her career at 8. Many wins. Broodmare for years so has had periods of no shoes. Started ridden work again at 16. At 28, many time champion of VHS. Not retired yet. Shoes removed early this year to _barefoot_ (26 years pretty much) not a problem as such but very small feet, contracted, boxy. Diet change. Now striding out on big strong frogs and tough bigger feet.

I would have said she was well shod, I have known the mare for 7 years or so. Given the right nutrients and environment, the feet seem to WANT to change and adapt.

Not the only barefoot tb on this yard now.


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## Oberon (18 October 2012)

Where there is blood supply - there is always the ability for the hooves to 'return to original factory settings' post shoe removal .

Hope is lost when blood supply is permanently impaired - such as with chronic laminitis.

To shoe or not to shoe is the decision of the owner and no one has the right to judge that choice.

The Barefoot Taliban will always be available to help pass on information and advice (to the best of our abilities) in order to improve hoof health - no matter whether the person asking the questions shoes or doesn't shoe.


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## thatsmygirl (18 October 2012)

I really can't believe this is still going. 

I have 5 bare and 1 with fronts on, all use to be shod and I was totally anti barefoot and use to speak my views quite openly on such threads. Then my lovely ex racer had serious feet problems and after x rays even THE VET stated my best chance was barefoot. So what would you do? As a owner completely against barefoot? I had no choice but to try it and I sat  down doing research after research and the more I read the more it all made sence. Hence why I now have 5 1/2 bare. All are sound, and have better feet for it. I cringe when I see bad shoeing, horses with bar shoes or pads, wedges etc. I love to hear the patter of bare feet on the rds.


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## Tinypony (18 October 2012)

Oberon said:



			Where there is blood supply - there is always the ability for the hooves to 'return to original factory settings' post shoe removal .

Hope is lost when blood supply is permanently impaired - such as with chronic laminitis.

To shoe or not to shoe is the decision of the owner and no one has the right to judge that choice.

The Barefoot Taliban will always be available to help pass on information and advice (to the best of our abilities) in order to improve hoof health - no matter whether the person asking the questions shoes or doesn't shoe.
		
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(Gives a little cheer!)  I can hear Dambusters-type music playing in the background now.


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## Horseycrazy (18 October 2012)

Got my horse some slippers today, but of course they are only for the stable.


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## Alyth (18 October 2012)

I believe the proof of the pudding is in the eating...and I see endurance riders doing The Quilty, Tevis and other rides 100 miles in one day, plus of course the training required and doing it barefoot or in boots.....vet checks along the way and at the end.....and don't try telling me boots are like shoes 'cos they're not!!!  Boots allow hoof mechanism.....


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## Meowy Catkin (18 October 2012)

Horseycrazy said:



			Got my horse some slippers today, but of course they are only for the stable.

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Did he get the smoking jacket and pipe too?


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## tase1965 (18 October 2012)

Horseycrazy said:



			Got my horse some slippers today, but of course they are only for the stable.

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Ooooh, what are they like? fleece lined... pom poms?


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## horseluver4eva (18 October 2012)

If horses were meant to have metal on their feet then they would be born with it!


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## shortstuff99 (18 October 2012)

horseluver4eva said:



			If horses were meant to have metal on their feet then they would be born with it!
		
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I have to say i think it's owners choice to BF or not but this comment has made me laugh! 

If horses were ment to be ridden then they would be born with us on top!  lol nothing more unnatural than riding them!


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## Daytona (18 October 2012)

Oh my heed 

Ha ha this thread has descended into nonsense.


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## Skippys Mum (18 October 2012)

All joking apart, the single thing that converted me was a comment (I dont even remember where I saw it but somewhere on the internet) about holding a hoof boot in your hand and banging it off concrete.  Then do the same holding a shoe.  You feel the reverberations going right through your arm.  This is what the horse feels - every single stride.

Although I originally took Arnies shoes off as a winter experiment, reading that really gave me a jolt and made me stop and think.  

I am not anti shoe - I am not saying I will never shoe again.  I can absolutely guarantee I will never shoe all year round again but I can also guarantee shoes off is going to be my first option and will always now be my ideal.


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## Pale Rider (18 October 2012)

It is true that there is nothing natural about riding horses. But, I think that the symbiotic relationship that has developed between us as two diametrically opposed species is for us a rare privilege. It's because of this that I feel so strongly that, for my horses at least, whatever I do, I do for them, not too them.
I want them to be mentally, emotionally and physically fit, healthy and happy, within their own skin.

Over the years, this has meant massive changes in the way I keep and manage them, but looking back to how things were 20 or 30 years ago, and the problems we had in those days, I feel we are on the right track, and barefoot is part of that.


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## missyclare (19 October 2012)

Hello. I'm new here. I'm from Canada. I just left a similar thread over here and its interesting to find myself here as well. What are pony nuts?? LOL!

Anyway, I trim my own. Been doing it for 14 years. I was on the front lines fighting for the barefoot trim back then. I wasn't religious about it either. I had a hard won faith indeed. I had to go through the process for myself, as have many others.

The barefoot trim journey is so amazing! They are like 4 organs that are crucial to the whole health of a horse. I once removed the torque from a 3" stretched white line. When I put the foot down, 2 steps later, the horse's sinuses just let loose and drained on the spot. It scared her, as she wasn't expecting it. The swelling under both eyes went down and it took a whole kleenex box to clean her up. That was restored flow in action....hemodynamic force from the foot affecting the immune system at the other end of the body. With so much at stake, now imagine what a decreased blood flow would do?  Now think of the endocrine system, the pituitary, thyroid.....IR and Cushings. Every system in the body.  The hoof is sooo important. It must function.

In answer to the OP's original post, yes this would upset me as well. If the measurement from the bottom of the groove at the apex, to the top of the finished wall height is less than 1/2", then I'd be hitting her with her own rasp. Without boots? Uh, uh. Here's some reasons why. Firstly, if the horse is moving in mincing steps and stumbling in pain, he is not only unsafe, but the lack of correct movement promotes nothing but more pain. You can be sure the rest of his body is getting thrown out of whack from this. The big one, or rasp hitting one, is that if the groove at the apex is shallow, then P3's nose could be low in the hoof, coming down on the inside of thin sole with the force of the horse's descending weight  The ground is coming up from the outside to that same thin sole. This causes one of the reactions for bone change. BUT, unlike every other bone in the horse's body that is surrounded by a periosteum, that reacts and heals, P3 has a corium and it doesn't heal, it just destructs. There is no 2nd chance. So yeah, it would upset me too. A horse cannot survive without P3 and you don't want to be grinding it into sawdust. People should always think about what they leave, not what they take. Abscesses can be warnings and are always setbacks. 

Food for thought and fodder if you need it. Hope this helps...


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## Alyth (19 October 2012)

Skippys Mum said:



			All joking apart, the single thing that converted me was a comment (I dont even remember where I saw it but somewhere on the internet) about holding a hoof boot in your hand and banging it off concrete.  Then do the same holding a shoe.  You feel the reverberations going right through your arm.  This is what the horse feels - every single stride.

Although I originally took Arnies shoes off as a winter experiment, reading that really gave me a jolt and made me stop and think.  

I am not anti shoe - I am not saying I will never shoe again.  I can absolutely guarantee I will never shoe all year round again but I can also guarantee shoes off is going to be my first option and will always now be my ideal.
		
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Somewhere on youtube there are 2 videos of a pony trotting on tarmac - one with shoes and one without.  You can see the waves of pressure running up the legs of the shod pony, and that, along with the thermal image of a horse with 1 leg bare and 3 shod, converted me!!  And further research and learning convinced me!!  However, of course, it is human nature to only hear what you want to hear!!!  And I will not bang my head against brick walls!!!


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## Foxhunter49 (19 October 2012)

The old saying "No foot - no horse" is so true.

WHat must be remembered is that in the wild a horse with bad feet would be dead, therefore natural selection ensured that horse were born with good feet.

People breed for a variety of reasons but very few ever look at feet when choosing a stallion or breeding a mare.

Some horses can go barefoot - some horses can do full work barefoot but many cannot. 

I had a big heavyweight Irish Draught that had terrible feet in that the walls of his feet were paper thin. Being a hunter he had his shoes off in the summer when out at grass. 
he was never sound when the ground got hard. He hated to go to the water tank if there was hard standing around it and, walking up the track he was a cripple. 

When he retired he was full time lame because he had no shoes on. It was not a matter of not trying because we did but, he had poor feet and needed shoes.


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## DragonSlayer (19 October 2012)

Alyth said:



			Somewhere on youtube there are 2 videos of a pony trotting on tarmac - one with shoes and one without.  You can see the waves of pressure running up the legs of the shod pony, and that, along with the thermal image of a horse with 1 leg bare and 3 shod, converted me!!  And further research and learning convinced me!!  However, of course, it is human nature to only hear what you want to hear!!!  And I will not bang my head against brick walls!!!
		
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Then don't.

What gets me from some people who go barefoot is they will not accept that it does not suit all horses. Some of mine are shod, some are not. I don't give a flying fig what some people think of what I do, my horses, my choices. 

Your posts suggest that those people who are like me are perhaps blinkered. That is not the case. There is no wonder arguments rage over this subject when people cannot accept choices of others that quite frankly have **** all to do with anyone else.

I am not an idiot, I am an educated professional. I don't care that it's not in the equine world, but I like to think that I can make informed choices over what I do.


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## tallyho! (19 October 2012)

I wonder if your hunter had other issues going on for him. I would probably not have been putting this boy out on grass. However, if this is what you had and shoeing helped him then it was the right thing to do.

I don't personally believe that humans have bred the feet out of horses. Where is the proof in that? It was 30 Million years ago that "merychippus" started to walk on one toe and hippus as we know them today have been around for 1 million years and humans domesticated them (after mostly eating them for 20k years) about 4000 years ago. That is a miniscule amount of time. Feet that have taken THAT long to evolve do not suddenly go through devolution. 

What has changed? Man. That is the one single thing that has changed for equus caballus. A grazer just like any other suddenly thrown into a world of burden, strange foods, strange surroundings, natural cycles all broken, fighting against every instinct and look how good they all are about it. Imagine what this does to their metabolism? What *MISSYCLARE* has said makes sense.

It is not genetics I feel that dictate the soundness of hooves, it is the environment as a whole. 

If all the domesticated horses were let loose in a large mountain range, they would survive. Thats not a hypothesis, it really did happen and they still exist today, the Mustang & the Brumby.

As a barefooter, I try and provide as close as possible a bit of "wildness" to my horses. 24/7 turnout, no rugs (it is only England), provide minerals they would have found in the wild, so they wouldn't have found THAT much grass in a natural wilderness so that is why I need to consider diet so much. 

And diet (and environment) is what I believe gives you a barefoot horse or a shod horse. It's modifiable.


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## Alyth (19 October 2012)

DragonSlayer said:



			Then don't.

What gets me from some people who go barefoot is they will not accept that it does not suit all horses. Some of mine are shod, some are not. I don't give a flying fig what some people think of what I do, my horses, my choices. 

Your posts suggest that those people who are like me are perhaps blinkered. That is not the case. There is no wonder arguments rage over this subject when people cannot accept choices of others that quite frankly have **** all to do with anyone else.

I am not an idiot, I am an educated professional. I don't care that it's not in the equine world, but I like to think that I can make informed choices over what I do.
		
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ROTFLMAO!!!  I am pleased you are happy with your choices.....it's simply that you haven't considered any alternatives yet, if you have looked at the possibilities you haven't yet understood them.  Or you believe the various lines that have been said for many many years.   That's fine.  However "professional" you are - your knowledge is in that area, not the area of barefoot horses.....that's fine!!  Your horses, your choices.  I sincerely hope you never have major decisions to make that is about their hoof health!!  As has been said many times - all horses can go barefoot - not all owners can!!   Good luck.


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## maisie06 (19 October 2012)

DragonSlayer said:



			Then don't.

What gets me from some people who go barefoot is they will not accept that it does not suit all horses. Some of mine are shod, some are not. I don't give a flying fig what some people think of what I do, my horses, my choices. 

Your posts suggest that those people who are like me are perhaps blinkered. That is not the case. There is no wonder arguments rage over this subject when people cannot accept choices of others that quite frankly have **** all to do with anyone else.

I am not an idiot, I am an educated professional. I don't care that it's not in the equine world, but I like to think that I can make informed choices over what I do.
		
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I so agree with you DS. I am frankly appalled by the attitudes of some on here. This barefoot thing is becoming like a religion. My 5 year old is having his fronts shod next week and I am looking forward to upping his work as a result. I am not messing around with minerals, hoof boots etc, I work a FT job and riding is my way of relaxing, the shoes will go on I can ride without worrying simples. He has coped well up until now but we are going further afield onto the flinty tracks and abrasive tarmac.My mare however has just had  her shoes off.


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## tallyho! (19 October 2012)

DragonSlayer said:



			Then don't.

What gets me from some people who go barefoot is they will not accept that it does not suit all horses. Some of mine are shod, some are not. I don't give a flying fig what some people think of what I do, my horses, my choices. 

Your posts suggest that those people who are like me are perhaps blinkered. That is not the case. There is no wonder arguments rage over this subject when people cannot accept choices of others that quite frankly have **** all to do with anyone else.

I am not an idiot, I am an educated professional. I don't care that it's not in the equine world, but I like to think that I can make informed choices over what I do.
		
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If this is how you feel then no one can help that. Its how you choose to feel about it. The discussion will still go on whether you feel blinkered or not. No one is singling you out to say you are an idiot.

I think everyone accepts choices people make and vice-versa. The question was asked and people have answered it. 

If you think you have made an informed choice then why are you feeling so angry with people who have made the same informed choices for their horses?


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## maisie06 (19 October 2012)

Alyth said:



			ROTFLMAO!!!  I am pleased you are happy with your choices.....it's simply that you haven't considered any alternatives yet, if you have looked at the possibilities you haven't yet understood them.  Or you believe the various lines that have been said for many many years.   That's fine.  However "professional" you are - your knowledge is in that area, not the area of barefoot horses.....that's fine!!  Your horses, your choices.  I sincerely hope you never have major decisions to make that is about their hoof health!!  As has been said many times - all horses can go barefoot - not all owners can!!   Good luck.
		
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Seriously - you sound like those bible bashers who bang on the door - their way or no way, get a grip, and accept we all have a choice, put your point across but don't shove it down our throats. My horse my decision.


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## Goldenstar (19 October 2012)

Foxhunter49 said:



			The old saying "No foot - no horse" is so true.

WHat must be remembered is that in the wild a horse with bad feet would be dead, therefore natural selection ensured that horse were born with good feet.

People breed for a variety of reasons but very few ever look at feet when choosing a stallion or breeding a mare.

Some horses can go barefoot - some horses can do full work barefoot but many cannot. 

I had a big heavyweight Irish Draught that had terrible feet in that the walls of his feet were paper thin. Being a hunter he had his shoes off in the summer when out at grass. 
he was never sound when the ground got hard. He hated to go to the water tank if there was hard standing around it and, walking up the track he was a cripple. 

When he retired he was full time lame because he had no shoes on. It was not a matter of not trying because we did but, he had poor feet and needed shoes.
		
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Exactly many of horses are little but the question is why ,why was the horse like that ?
There will a reason his ability to walk the way he was born was so impaired its just finding the reason that's the hard bit.
Shod or otherwise a horse that can't walk on its own feet is not healthy that does not mean you can always solve the issue.
Our ID struggled in his try at BF although not as bad as yours he was ok turned out it was getting him working that was difficult but he got a summer in work in boots but never got good enough to do more than one day a week unbooted on the road.
I think I understand why now and will have a go next summer I have changed all his diet and we shall see.
Mines a very very good doer so can't be out of work so boots at least gave his feet a break while we kept him slim.


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## Equilibrium Ireland (19 October 2012)

So basically you think the BT are trying to ram all this down our throats. I used to think that as well. Until, I looked at responses to posters, myself included. The anti bare group sprout off cruelty and bash the bare people and when they try and shoe examples of working bare horses they get maligned as a cult. 

What you don't know is that if you talk to any of these people individually, without attacking, they always say "you can always put the shoes back on". They never say well your an idiot and a failure if your horse can't go bare.

The whole thing for me is that I do have to look at their overall health  much more closely which I don't think is a bad thing. And I'm not suggesting people who shoe don't. It's very possible I may put shoes on again at some stage. I don't know. For now it's working. It's just that simple. 

I mean really look around at the comments of people who shoe. Do you really think these people deserve nice comments back? You all feel you're being attacked and yet you come out attacking. I just find that strange. I was the same. Once I stopped attacking I started learning a bit. That's all. 

Terri


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## Goldenstar (19 October 2012)

Maisie06 don't read the threads that solves the issue.
If you are happy with your horse that fine.
However and I don't include you in this group the people who I don't understand are the ones that say it's cruel to work your horse unshod on the road which is where we started this epic.
My horse is working BF I am amazed by what he's doing shortly he will try hunting and I suspect the issue will be his head not his feet I object to being told its cruel my people who have not seen a BF horse doing well
I dont say all shoeing is bad based on the of the truly ghastly shoeing I see because that would be silly.


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## Daytona (19 October 2012)

Masie06 have to agree with you


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## Goldenstar (19 October 2012)

Ludoctro said:



			Masie06 have to agree with you
		
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Yes but Ludoctro did you not say that horses that go on roads needed shoes and it was not fair to expect them to do so Bf in an earlier post.
So why is it ok for you to make that sweeping statement from 'your ' side but Bf are accused of being bible bashes and that's ok ?


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## Bikerchickone (19 October 2012)

This is crackers! From my own experience the BT were helpful and supportive when I had problems with my horse and not one of them made me feel like an idiot for having shod him over the years. 

Whilst I do feel there is something in the statement that most horses can go barefoot and it's the owners who can't I still respect that as being the owner's decision, as I think do most of the BT. 

Keeping a barefoot horse happy healthy and working comfortably is hard on the owner at first and I wouldn't blame anyone struggling for time with their horse for not wanting to go that way. I'm hardly a barefoot advertiser since I only tried it after shoeing left my horse with navicular and collateral ligament damage. 

If we all had a track system like Nic at Rockley and endless time to do roadwork on our horses then yes I think most would cope better than we think but the reality is that we aren't all in that situation and we're all doing the best we can, so why the antagonism on anyone's part?


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## Goldenstar (19 October 2012)

bikerchickone said:



			, so why the antagonism on anyone's part?
		
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That's what I don't understand as well.


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## tallyho! (19 October 2012)

Antagonism can only come about when there is a protagonist. I think the shod "camp" feel antagonised by the BFT.

Yet, all the BFT do is state fairly simple facts and do not perceive people who shoe as a threat or obstacle so therefore do not try and antagonise. BFT are false protagonists and are seen as a protagonists only by those who FEEL antagonised by the words used. It's a non issue until someone feels threatened by the beliefs. 

There is no sense in antagonising because BFT's see shoes as useful and it is a use-as-needed tool rather than a must. Not even I would continue to work a horse barefoot if I could not make it sound without. But I don't see shoes as a "failure" as some people from the shod camp seem to think we think. We see barefoot as the norm and shoes as a tool.

They are fairly simple statements that can be construed to take on any meaning anyone likes. A "pro" barefoot would not see that as antagonistic, but someone who puts themselves on the antagonised side, will feel the need to defend themselves as is what is happening.

It's perfectly natural so we should just carry on and satisfy ourselves. Everyone loves a "goodie & baddie" story... the colateral damage here is, sadly, the innocent horse.


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## touchstone (19 October 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Antagonism can only come about when there is a protagonist. I think the shod "camp" feel antagonised by the BFT.

Yet, all the BFT do is state fairly simple facts and do not perceive people who shoe as a threat or obstacle so therefore do not try and antagonise. BFT are false protagonists and are seen as a protagonists only by those who FEEL antagonised by the words used. It's a non issue until someone feels threatened by the beliefs. 

There is no sense in antagonising because BFT's see shoes as useful and it is a use-as-needed tool rather than a must. Not even I would continue to work a horse barefoot if I could not make it sound without. But I don't see shoes as a "failure" as some people from the shod camp seem to think we think. We see barefoot as the norm and shoes as a tool.

They are fairly simple statements that can be construed to take on any meaning anyone likes. A "pro" barefoot would not see that as antagonistic, but someone who puts themselves on the antagonised side, will feel the need to defend themselves as is what is happening.

It's perfectly natural so we should just carry on and satisfy ourselves. Everyone loves a "goodie & baddie" story... the colateral damage here is, sadly, the innocent horse.



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I think Tallyho has expressed what I think (only far more eloquently!) 

If I started a thread titled 'Shoeing cruelty' I think those who shoe would quite rightly come on and castigate me for making such an assumption and yet the bt defend themselves and get labelled as bible bashers.   

I have never had 'barefoot' forced on me by anyone, and if I thought it wasn't right for a particular horse I would shoe, as I'm sure the majority who have unshod horses would.  There is bound to be the odd individual who is convinced that all shoeing is cruel and can't look beyond that, but surely the same applies to those who label being bf as cruel.


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## Tinypony (19 October 2012)

Who are the Barefoot Taliban?  I have a few regular helpful and knowledgeable names in my head, but curious about this.
I think some members are getting rattled by the number of threads springing up on this forum asking this group of people for advice about hoof balance, barefoot feeding etc.  To me that's a testament to the quality of help they give.  They are pretty patient as well, calmly repeating the same information over and over again on multiple threads.  The only time I've seen these "regulars" get irritable is when they are attacked, sometimes by the person who asked for advice and doesn't like the answers.  However, I'd be interested to see a link to anyone of the BT telling someone that they are cruel to shoe their horse.  
I've also noticed some consistency in what the BT say:
If a horse has "bad feet" (shod or unshod) there is a reason. In the majority of cases the problems can be addressed by some change of management.
Not all horse owners have the time, facilities or inclination to get into the changes of management, and that's their choice.
A horse should never be left in pain.
There may be times when it's best to put shoes on.  If the aim is for barefoot that might be temporary.
They will challenge ignorant statements along the lines of "all horses that do regular roadwork will have to wear shoes", but I've not seen them get rude or insulting about it.
Every owner is entitled to decide whether their horse wears shoes or not, as long as they don't cause suffering.
Personally I can't see the harm in some horse owners choosing to discuss a particular aspect of horsemanship, be that eventing, grooming or hoofcare.  So why do we still get these regular threads that go on the attack about horses that don't wear shoes?  How pointless.


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## FionaM12 (19 October 2012)

It's odd that people here are saying the barefoot supporters are the ones being opinionated and aggressive when the very title of this thread appears to be a deliberate attack on them.


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## Pale Rider (19 October 2012)

I'd like to address this issue of genetics a little bit. You often hear Shoeing Luddites grasping at this as another reason why barefoot won't work with 'their' horse. His feet have been ruined by years of injudicious breeding.
Complete rubbish yet again. Breeding is probably worse now than it ever was in the past, when people were actually breeding horses for a proper job, rather than a hobby or sport. 

People talk about mustang and brumby horses as though they can trace their origins back to their wild ancestors. Well, they can't. Both American mustang and Australian brumbys are feral horses derived from lost and escaped domestic horses in the last few hundred years, there were less than 200 horses in the whole of Australia in 1800.
The success of the Australian feral horse, many of whom have some TB in them give the lie to the Genetic excuse for shoeing.


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## Flame_ (19 October 2012)

DragonSlayer said:



			Then don't.

What gets me from some people who go barefoot is they will not accept that it does not suit all horses. Some of mine are shod, some are not. I don't give a flying fig what some people think of what I do, my horses, my choices. 

Your posts suggest that those people who are like me are perhaps blinkered. That is not the case. There is no wonder arguments rage over this subject when people cannot accept choices of others that quite frankly have **** all to do with anyone else.

I am not an idiot, I am an educated professional. I don't care that it's not in the equine world, but I like to think that I can make informed choices over what I do.
		
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Alyth said:



			ROTFLMAO!!!  I am pleased you are happy with your choices.....it's simply that you haven't considered any alternatives yet, if you have looked at the possibilities you haven't yet understood them.  Or you believe the various lines that have been said for many many years.   That's fine.  However "professional" you are - your knowledge is in that area, not the area of barefoot horses.....that's fine!!  Your horses, your choices.  I sincerely hope you never have major decisions to make that is about their hoof health!!  As has been said many times - all horses can go barefoot - not all owners can!!   Good luck.
		
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Here's a perfect example of the antagonism on the barefoot side. The constant accusation that people who shoe their horses are just incapable of or unwilling to understand going barefoot properly and are too incompetent or lazy to do it so need to put shoes on. If that isn't antagonism I don't know what is!



tallyho! said:



			Antagonism can only come about when there is a protagonist. I think the shod "camp" feel antagonised by the BFT.

Yet, all the BFT do is state fairly simple facts and do not perceive people who shoe as a threat or obstacle so therefore do not try and antagonise. BFT are false protagonists and are seen as a protagonists only by those who FEEL antagonised by the words used. It's a non issue until someone feels threatened by the beliefs. 

There is no sense in antagonising because BFT's see shoes as useful and it is a use-as-needed tool rather than a must. Not even I would continue to work a horse barefoot if I could not make it sound without. But I don't see shoes as a "failure" as some people from the shod camp seem to think we think. We see barefoot as the norm and shoes as a tool.
		
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This approach is how the BFT have gained support, but I still think there's a 50:50 split within the BFT between those who like to tell people who shoe how unenlightened they are and those who respect their (perhaps *very*) informed choices.


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## Goldenstar (19 October 2012)

Flame_ said:



			Here's a perfect example of the antagonism on the barefoot side. The constant accusation that people who shoe their horses are just incapable of or unwilling to understand going barefoot properly and are too incompetent or lazy to do it so need to put shoes on. If that isn't antagonism I don't know what is!



This approach is how the BFT have gained support, but I still think there's a 50:50 split within the BFT between those who like to tell people who shoe how unenlightened they are and those who respect their (perhaps *very*) informed choices.
		
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But what about respect for my VERY imformed choice to have 3 out 4 horses BF the start of original post showed no respect for my choices those with BF horses have been told that our horses can't be sound on the road and we are cruel during this thread .
I don't like the way some Pro BF posters express themselves but it goes both ways you know.
If I said that someone who shod their horse was cruel there would be an outcry but it's ok for the pro shoeing lobby to say that.


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## Zargon_91 (19 October 2012)

This is a real interesting thread...
and spot on haha
Im not against barefoot, im not against shoes.
Im for what works for each individual horse- however each horse should be treated by a QUALIFIED FARRIER. 
I wonder how many barefooties are aware that currently there are massive movements going on amongst the BHS/farriers guild/welfare groups to get barefoot trimming covered under the same legislation as other alternative treatments. When it is passes, it will be ILLEGAL for anyone to treat a horse (including their own) without the permission of their vet, and a full professional qualification. This is the same legislation which covers physiotherapy and chiropractic etc.


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## pines of rome (19 October 2012)

And who is to know if I decide to use a rasp on my own horse,s feet I wonder?


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## FionaM12 (19 October 2012)

Zargon_91 said:



			This is a real interesting thread...
and spot on haha
Im not against barefoot, im not against shoes.
Im for what works for each individual horse- however each horse should be treated by a QUALIFIED FARRIER. 
I wonder how many barefooties are aware that currently there are massive movements going on amongst the BHS/farriers guild/welfare groups to get barefoot trimming covered under the same legislation as other alternative treatments. When it is passes, it will be ILLEGAL for anyone to treat a horse *(including their own) *without the permission of their vet, and a full professional qualification. This is the same legislation which covers physiotherapy and chiropractic etc.
		
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I would think it would be impossible to enforce a law which stops a person trimming their own horses feet! Or for that matter trying a bit of amateur phsyio on them!


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## Goldenstar (19 October 2012)

Zargon_91 said:



			This is a real interesting thread...
and spot on haha
Im not against barefoot, im not against shoes.
Im for what works for each individual horse- however each horse should be treated by a QUALIFIED FARRIER. 
I wonder how many barefooties are aware that currently there are massive movements going on amongst the BHS/farriers guild/welfare groups to get barefoot trimming covered under the same legislation as other alternative treatments. When it is passes, it will be ILLEGAL for anyone to treat a horse (including their own) without the permission of their vet, and a full professional qualification. This is the same legislation which covers physiotherapy and chiropractic etc.
		
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Trimming a horses feet is not treatment .
If they did this I would simply find a vet who would ok my trimmer if not I'd move vets I spent £10000 with the vet last year I would find one who thought my way


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## Flame_ (19 October 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			But what about respect for my VERY imformed choice to have 3 out 4 horses BF the start of original post showed no respect for my choices those with BF horses have been told that our horses can't be sound on the road and we are cruel during this thread .
I don't like the way some Pro BF posters express themselves but it goes both ways you know.

Yes, you're quite right, but that point has been addressed enough, this was a response to the post made at the top of this page (with my page settings).

If I said that someone who shod their horse was cruel there would be an outcry but it's ok for the pro shoeing lobby to say that.
		
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Not really, if anyone says "shoeing is always cruel" or "not shoeing is always cruel" there would be about equal outrage (and or p!ss taking  ) IME.


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## Goldenstar (19 October 2012)

Flame_ said:



Not really, if anyone says "shoeing is always cruel" or "not shoeing is always cruel" there would be about equal outrage (and or p!ss taking  ) IME. 

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Yup your right


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## Zargon_91 (19 October 2012)

same people that would get upset about you sticking pins in it if you were into acupuncture at a guess. Also an interesting point that insurance companies can refuse a claim if its anything to do with the lower leg if youre horse has seen a trimmer rather than a farrier. I just think people should be aware.


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## Clava (19 October 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Trimming a horses feet is not treatment .
If they did this I would simply find a vet who would ok my trimmer if not I'd move vets I spent £10000 with the vet last year I would find one who thought my way
		
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I will continue to show my horses hooves to my farrier and 9 times out of 10 he will continue to say they don't need doing. Not sure how they'd prosecute roads for trimming.


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## hessy12 (19 October 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Well I disagree with you so what we gonna do?
		
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Well, we could try a duel at dawn? lol I respect your difference of opinion.


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## Goldenstar (19 October 2012)

Zargon_91 said:



			same people that would get upset about you sticking pins in it if you were into acupuncture at a guess. Also an interesting point that insurance companies can refuse a claim if its anything to do with the lower leg if youre horse has seen a trimmer rather than a farrier. I just think people should be aware.
		
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I am aware and never insure my horses as I like desisions taken to be mine alone.
Don't get your acupuncture point only an idiot would have a go at that and no law stops idiots.


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## Goldenstar (19 October 2012)

Clava said:



			I will continue to show my horses hooves to my farrier and 9 times out of 10 he will continue to say they don't need doing. Not sure how they'd prosecute roads for trimming.
		
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Good point


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## Goldenstar (19 October 2012)

hessy12 said:



			Well, we could try a duel at dawn? lol I respect your difference of opinion.
		
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Yes hoof picks at dawn that's the way forward.


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## Zargon_91 (19 October 2012)

unfortunately the key work there is farrier, an individual who holds a professional qualification- and equally is registered to an association who will hold them liable and try them under professional court if they screw up. And acupuncture really isnt so different to trimming. (now im opening a box of snakes) When you consider the risks if anything goes wrong, they are comparable.


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## Clava (19 October 2012)

Zargon_91 said:



			... and equally is registered to an association who will hold them liable and try them under professional court if they screw up. .
		
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Does this actually happen much? Do they prosecute their own? Just wondered.


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## Goldenstar (19 October 2012)

Zargon_91 said:



			unfortunately the key work there is farrier, an individual who holds a professional qualification- and equally is registered to an association who will hold them liable and try them under professional court if they screw up. And acupuncture really isnt so different to trimming. (now im opening a box of snakes) When you consider the risks if anything goes wrong, they are comparable.
		
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Have had issue after issue with farriers until I stopped i just wont use them for trimming I wanted to learn about BF care and as my farrier attitude was horses can't work BF I was not going to learn much from him no trimmer needs to learn how to shoe horses they just need to learn to trim .
They need to get it sorted out so trimmers have the proper protection they deserve and so do their customers mine is insured I checked all that out.
Next I am going to learn myself ( to trim I mean ) its a year now my first ones been without shoes and I feel ready now to learn.


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## Zargon_91 (19 October 2012)

it does happen, there have been a few cases in the past year- and more cases are brought to the farriers council and often ruled as not the fault of the farrier (usually for matters such as the owners not disclosing a history of laminitis when a new farrier is used- sometimes the hoof capsule will look completely normal but the pedal bone still might have rotation etc.) Arguably the fewer cases brought forward, the better it looks on the farriers in the UK, but yes- it does happen.


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## Littlelegs (19 October 2012)

The impression I get is that the barefooters want good regulation more than farriers do. When a farrier screws up, the general ( correct imo ) view is that one individual has screwed up. However when you get something like anglegrinder woman's home guide book, the general view is that it represents all barefoot trimmers, which is unfair on the majority of pro barefooters.


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## Scarlett (19 October 2012)

Zargon_91 said:



			This is a real interesting thread...
and spot on haha
Im not against barefoot, im not against shoes.
Im for what works for each individual horse- however each horse should be treated by a QUALIFIED FARRIER. 
I wonder how many barefooties are aware that currently there are massive movements going on amongst the BHS/farriers guild/welfare groups to get barefoot trimming covered under the same legislation as other alternative treatments. When it is passes, it will be ILLEGAL for anyone to treat a horse (including their own) without the permission of their vet, and a full professional qualification. This is the same legislation which covers physiotherapy and chiropractic etc.
		
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Good! Legislation will get rid of the bad trimmers and make it as a profession get taken more seriously. Maybe we can hope it will encourage farriers to have a section on maintaining a barefoot working horse in their training too?


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## Zargon_91 (19 October 2012)

Goldenstar said:



			Have had issue after issue with farriers until I stopped i just wont use them for trimming I wanted to learn about BF care and as my farrier attitude was horses can't work BF I was not going to learn much from him no trimmer needs to learn how to shoe horses they just need to learn to trim .
They need to get it sorted out so trimmers have the proper protection they deserve and so do their customers mine is insured I checked all that out.
Next I am going to learn myself ( to trim I mean ) its a year now my first ones been without shoes and I feel ready now to learn.
		
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Agree trimmers do need this protection- im coming across agressive, and this wasnt the intent... and of course not all farriers are ideal but they have consequences if they go wrong. The way forward would perhaps be a combined course where trimmers and farriers learn about anatomy and technique etc (entire first year of farrier course i.e. pre-farriery is all book based learning) then farriers/trimmer could go on to specialise in shoeing/trimming- this way all would be equally qualified, and should have equal protection but also would have a standard to uphold nationally


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## Goldenstar (19 October 2012)

littlelegs said:



			The impression I get is that the barefooters want good regulation more than farriers do. When a farrier screws up, the general ( correct imo ) view is that one individual has screwed up. However when you get something like anglegrinder woman's home guide book, the general view is that it represents all barefoot trimmers, which is unfair on the majority of pro barefooters.
		
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You may well be right if good sensible regulation comes for trimmers it removes the FC's biggest gun.
However the FC would not be in this situation if they did more in terms of checking farriers work and addressing bad practice and less protecting their own.


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## Bikerchickone (19 October 2012)

tallyho! said:



			Antagonism can only come about when there is a protagonist. I think the shod "camp" feel antagonised by the BFT.

Yet, all the BFT do is state fairly simple facts and do not perceive people who shoe as a threat or obstacle so therefore do not try and antagonise. BFT are false protagonists and are seen as a protagonists only by those who FEEL antagonised by the words used. It's a non issue until someone feels threatened by the beliefs. 

There is no sense in antagonising because BFT's see shoes as useful and it is a use-as-needed tool rather than a must. Not even I would continue to work a horse barefoot if I could not make it sound without. But I don't see shoes as a "failure" as some people from the shod camp seem to think we think. We see barefoot as the norm and shoes as a tool.

They are fairly simple statements that can be construed to take on any meaning anyone likes. A "pro" barefoot would not see that as antagonistic, but someone who puts themselves on the antagonised side, will feel the need to defend themselves as is what is happening.

It's perfectly natural so we should just carry on and satisfy ourselves. Everyone loves a "goodie & baddie" story... the colateral damage here is, sadly, the innocent horse.



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Tallyho you put that so much better than I did lol! 

I do think whoever highlighted the post being quite anti shoes was right though, those few people who want to ram the barefoot stuff down everyone else's throats are the ones doing the most damage from this side. It's just such a shame that there has to be sides in the first place.


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## Meowy Catkin (19 October 2012)

Z_91 you hold far too much faith in the FRC unfortunately.


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## Zargon_91 (19 October 2012)

its better to have faith in something than in nothing at all, which is what trimmers are regulated by.


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## Goldenstar (19 October 2012)

The only regulation I trust is my own .
The older I get more life proves this to me.


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## ester (19 October 2012)

Zargon_91 said:



			Agree trimmers do need this protection- im coming across agressive, and this wasnt the intent... and of course not all farriers are ideal but they have consequences if they go wrong.
		
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The trouble is that the consequences do seem to be generally insignificant.. even if you go and mutilate a horses feet in the field (twice?) because you've had a spat with the owner you only get a 3 month (?? iirc) ban .


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## Goldenstar (19 October 2012)

ester said:



			The trouble is that the consequences do seem to be generally insignificant.. even if you go and mutilate a horses feet in the field (twice?) because you've had a spat with the owner you only get a 3 month (?? iirc) ban .
		
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That finished any respect I had for them.


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## Brightbay (19 October 2012)

Zargon_91 said:



			its better to have faith in something than in nothing at all, which is what trimmers are regulated by.
		
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Well, let's have a dispassionate look at that idea, shall we? 

We want to know whether people have any come back if (a) a farrier, regulated by the FRC, or (b) a trimmer, not regulated by any national body, causes a problem with their horse.

Take two recent cases.  In one, a farrier caused wilful injury to two horses who had previously been in his care.  The issue was dealt with by the FRC and the farrier was suspended for three months.

In another, a trimmer was taken to court by the FRC, for applying a hoofcast to a horse, because they deemed this equivalent to applying a shoe.  The Magistrates Court imposed a £450 fine per offence, a victim surcharge of £15 and ordered the trimmer to make a contribution towards prosecution costs of £1,000.

So, regardless of whether there was a regulatory body in place, it was possible to deal with the actions of the trimmer.  But despite there being a regulatory body in place, the farrier - who _deliberately_ lamed two horses, was simply suspended for three months.  As this was April, he's presumably back out there, working with horses.

I do not make decisions on _faith_, but on evidence, and this evidence suggests to me that having a regulatory body is ineffective.


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## Clava (19 October 2012)

ester said:



			The trouble is that the consequences do seem to be generally insignificant.. even if you go and mutilate a horses feet in the field (twice?) because you've had a spat with the owner you only get a 3 month (?? iirc) ban .
		
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Yes. Hardly great regulation...


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## tallyho! (19 October 2012)

The thing about barefoot horses is... once they get going they don't need much interference so the frc and the trimmers may well need a day job....


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## cptrayes (19 October 2012)

Foxhunter49 said:



			Some horses can go barefoot - some horses can do full work barefoot but many cannot. 

I had a big heavyweight Irish Draught that had terrible feet in that the walls of his feet were paper thin. Being a hunter he had his shoes off in the summer when out at grass. 
he was never sound when the ground got hard. He hated to go to the water tank if there was hard standing around it and, walking up the track he was a cripple. 

When he retired he was full time lame because he had no shoes on. It was not a matter of not trying because we did but, he had poor feet and needed shoes.
		
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My hunter would also grow poor feet if he was at grass 24/7 all summer and shod all season. As it is, he hunts fine barefoot on nightime grazing spring/summer/early autumn, with careful mineral balancing and carbohydrate control.

He's a 17 hand Shire cross.


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## Meowy Catkin (19 October 2012)

Sadly BB, you are correct. 

The person that I know who is the most appalled and in despair about the state of the FRC is in fact a farrier himself. His opinion is that the FRC are more interested in protecting their income and 'their own', rather than the welfare of the horses.

The case of the farrier who chopped the shoes off the horses (and his pathetic punishment) reflects this.


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## DragonSlayer (19 October 2012)

Alyth said:



			ROTFLMAO!!!  I am pleased you are happy with your choices.....it's simply that you haven't considered any alternatives yet, if you have looked at the possibilities you haven't yet understood them.  Or you believe the various lines that have been said for many many years.   That's fine.  However "professional" you are - your knowledge is in that area, not the area of barefoot horses.....that's fine!!  Your horses, your choices.  I sincerely hope you never have major decisions to make that is about their hoof health!!  As has been said many times - all horses can go barefoot - not all owners can!!   Good luck.
		
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All Hail The Sage!

My god people......we are saved....


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## DragonSlayer (19 October 2012)

tallyho! said:



			If this is how you feel then no one can help that. Its how you choose to feel about it. The discussion will still go on whether you feel blinkered or not. No one is singling you out to say you are an idiot.

I think everyone accepts choices people make and vice-versa. The question was asked and people have answered it. 

If you think you have made an informed choice then why are you feeling so angry with people who have made the same informed choices for their horses?
		
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The thing that gets me is that people tend to judge others by what they do. I don't care what others do regarding shoes. What angers me is those who are too blinkered to ACCEPT that others have other opinons, is that really so difficult?


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## guesstimation (19 October 2012)

Brightbay said:



			Well, let's have a dispassionate look at that idea, shall we? 

We want to know whether people have any come back if (a) a farrier, regulated by the FRC, or (b) a trimmer, not regulated by any national body, causes a problem with their horse.

Take two recent cases.  In one, a farrier caused wilful injury to two horses who had previously been in his care.  The issue was dealt with by the FRC and the farrier was suspended for three months.

In another, a trimmer was taken to court by the FRC, for applying a hoofcast to a horse, because they deemed this equivalent to applying a shoe.  The Magistrates Court imposed a £450 fine per offence, a victim surcharge of £15 and ordered the trimmer to make a contribution towards prosecution costs of £1,000.

So, regardless of whether there was a regulatory body in place, it was possible to deal with the actions of the trimmer.  But despite there being a regulatory body in place, the farrier - who _deliberately_ lamed two horses, was simply suspended for three months.  As this was April, he's presumably back out there, working with horses.

I do not make decisions on _faith_, but on evidence, and this evidence suggests to me that having a regulatory body is ineffective.
		
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I'll apologise as I've not had a chance to read through this thread and this link may have already been shared, here it states how the trimmer had to plead guilty too as having no funds to defend the claim whereas farriers get all the backing they need!
http://fightingforthebarefoothorse.com/


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## cptrayes (19 October 2012)

maisie06 said:



			I am not messing around with minerals
		
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And here we have the crux of the "them and us" problem.

If I now say to you "does that not mean that you are saying that you do not care whether your horse has health issues because of mineral imbalances", you'll tell me that I am accusing you of being a bad owner, won't you?

And yet it does seem to me that what you are saying is that you simply do not care whether your horse has mineral imbalances that are causing him to be unable to work without shoes on. If I took the same approach, my horses would be continue to be copper deficient, with other problems in addition to foot issues, like sweet itch and propensity to get laminitis, which I used to have to deal with until I took their shoes off and their feet let me know that I needed to sort out something in their diet. 

Did you mean that, or did you just write it in the heat of the moment?


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## cptrayes (19 October 2012)

Alyth said:



			As has been said many times - all horses can go barefoot - not all owners can!!   Good luck.
		
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I do not believe this and I do not think it helps to repeat it.

There are many horses which have undiagnosed metabolic disease which cannot go barefoot without pain.

There are many diagnosed metabolic horses which even with treatment cannot go barefoot without pain.

There are horses that have been in shoes so long who have such corrupted feet and are of an age where it would be pointlessly cruel to make a transition to barefoot. 

There are horses which could go barefoot but require such a restrictive regime that the owner is perfectly justified in believing that the horse would be better off in shoes with more freedom. 

And others.

Many horses can do it really easily. Many horses can do it with a little more difficulty. Some horses can do it only with such difficulty that it is pointless to try. And some can't do it no matter what. We should all respect that.






ps this does not mean that I will agree with any one person that any one horse "just can't do it" until that person has heavily restricted carbohydrate intake, got a good trimmer on board (farrier or not), got a properly designed work schedule under way and checked for and corrected mineral imbalance. Sorry!


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## Always Henesy (19 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I do not believe this and I do not think it helps to repeat it.

There are many horses which have undiagnosed metabolic disease which cannot go barefoot without pain.

There are many diagnosed metabolic horses which even with treatment cannot go barefoot without pain.

There are horses that have been in shoes so long who have such corrupted feet and are of an age where it would be pointlessly cruel to make a transition to barefoot. 

There are horses which could go barefoot but require such a restrictive regime that the owner is perfectly justified in believing that the horse would be better off in shoes with more freedom. 

And others.

Many horses can do it really easily. Many horses can do it with a little more difficulty. Some horses can do it only with such difficulty that it is pointless to try. And some can't do it no matter what. We should all respect that.






ps this does not mean that I will agree with any one person that any one horse "just can't do it" until that person has heavily restricted carbohydrate intake, got a good trimmer on board (farrier or not), got a properly designed work schedule under way and checked for and corrected mineral imbalance. Sorry!
		
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Fab post


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## Goldenstar (19 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I do not believe this and I do not think it helps to repeat it.

There are many horses which have undiagnosed metabolic disease which cannot go barefoot without pain.

There are many diagnosed metabolic horses which even with treatment cannot go barefoot without pain.

There are horses that have been in shoes so long who have such corrupted feet and are of an age where it would be pointlessly cruel to make a transition to barefoot. 

There are horses which could go barefoot but require such a restrictive regime that the owner is perfectly justified in believing that the horse would be better off in shoes with more freedom. 

And others.

Many horses can do it really easily. Many horses can do it with a little more difficulty. Some horses can do it only with such difficulty that it is pointless to try. And some can't do it no matter what. We should all respect that.






ps this does not mean that I will agree with any one person that any one horse "just can't do it" until that person has heavily restricted carbohydrate intake, got a good trimmer on board (farrier or not), got a properly designed work schedule under way and checked for and corrected mineral imbalance. Sorry!
		
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Great post , I failed to get our ID working BF over the summer I think there was lots of reasons for that .
He's a horse with many issues he's been ill in the past he's an good doer of epic proportions and was very very fat when he arrived it's a long list of things that I understand now better than I did in April last year.
I have worked hard on him and he's the slimmest he's been he's not a horse you can exercise slim as you have be careful with his limbs so exercise has to be carefully managed he has Anhidrosis as well which we have now managed to partially resolve.
I shod him in September when his proper job started and he had to earn his keep I honestly don't think I can ever get this horse doing his job BF but if I can get him BF in the summer using boots for exercise if necessary  it will be good for him we corrected his toe first landing over the summer and he's doing ok in natural balance shoes.
So I do think BF people who say every horse can BF are probally not correct I don't think this horse can and do his job.


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## tallyho! (19 October 2012)

DragonSlayer said:



			All Hail The Sage!

My god people......we are saved....
		
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## tallyho! (19 October 2012)

Nicely put CPT.


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## Alyth (19 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I do not believe this and I do not think it helps to repeat it.

There are many horses which have undiagnosed metabolic disease which cannot go barefoot without pain.

There are many diagnosed metabolic horses which even with treatment cannot go barefoot without pain.

There are horses that have been in shoes so long who have such corrupted feet and are of an age where it would be pointlessly cruel to make a transition to barefoot. 

There are horses which could go barefoot but require such a restrictive regime that the owner is perfectly justified in believing that the horse would be better off in shoes with more freedom. 

And others.



I
Many horses can do it really easily. Many horses can do it with a little more difficulty. Some horses can do it only with such difficulty that it is pointless to try. And some can't do it no matter what. We should all respect that.






ps this does not mean that I will agree with any one person that any one horse "just can't do it" until that person has heavily restricted carbohydrate intake, got a good trimmer on board (farrier or not), got a properly designed work schedule under way and checked for and corrected mineral imbalance. Sorry!
		
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I stand corrected   But I would like to see alternatives, such as boots, tried before resorting to shoes.  Usually it is the other way round.....I would also like to point out, as others have done, that accusatory and critical posts come from both "sides".  I would like to apologise if my opinions have caused offence to anyone.....


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## Holly Hocks (19 October 2012)

Zargon_91 said:



			I wonder how many barefooties are aware that currently there are massive movements going on amongst the BHS/farriers guild/welfare groups to get barefoot trimming covered under the same legislation as other alternative treatments. When it is passes, it will be ILLEGAL for anyone to treat a horse (including their own) without the permission of their vet, and a full professional qualification. This is the same legislation which covers physiotherapy and chiropractic etc.
		
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Well when your horse has every leg excluded on the insurance because of lameness problems caused by shoes, it doesn't really matter when they refuse to pay.

And most people's vets would endorse any trimmer who they have seen bring back from death's door to full health.....your comment does not cause me any concern whatsoever.


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## Pale Rider (19 October 2012)

Quote Aylth.

 I stand corrected But I would like to see alternatives, such as boots, tried before resorting to shoes. Usually it is the other way round.....I would also like to point out, as others have done, that accusatory and critical posts come from both "sides". I would like to apologise if my opinions have caused offence to anyone.....

Nice post.


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## tallyho! (20 October 2012)

PR... you do know that you can press the "quote" button or the "  *"+*  "at the bottom right of posts and it will quote or multiquote for you?

Bless you, copy and pasting all this time...


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## Pale Rider (20 October 2012)

Thanks Tally, the quote buttons don't work on my phone


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## tallyho! (20 October 2012)

Pale Rider said:



			Thanks Tally, the quote buttons don't work on my phone
		
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Oh right..... Ignore my other post on the abscess thread!  sorry!


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## MagicMelon (20 October 2012)

Horsesforever1 said:



			I seem to hear of more and more barefoot horses having abscesses including an endurance horse I know of which was PTS because of them. The owners/riders choose not to try shoes at all but insist barefoot is the only way.
This does not appear to be in the best interests of the horse.
I have both shod and unshod horses, whether or not they need shoes depends on the work done and the terrain. No way would any of mine do the amount of work I require of them on the roads without shoes.
A local riding school has all shioeless because they only go on grass and in a rubber surface manage, they simply dont need shoes.
		
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Its funny how you believe that barefoot horses ar emore prone to absesses, I have actually found its the other way round.  One of my ponies went from being shod for years and suffering from 2 absesses a year (every single year) and also bruised soles etc. to me changing him to barefoot - the difference has been amazing.  Yes, the pony is occassionally "footy" if the ground is really frozen solid in the field however he was MORE footy when he was shod.  He has also suffered NO absesses or bruised soles since!  He has never looked better!  

I completely agree that common sense should prevail with either being shod or barefoot. It definately depends upon the work the horse is doing and also how the horse copes. My grey (who I used to compete, now he's injured) I used to have shod during the eventing season as I needed studs - I would never compete without shoes on after a certain level SJ and eventing (and I have tried).  I'd love for someone to develop hoof boots which I am allowed to use for eventing and BSJA and I'd never shoe again.  Over the winter, his shoes were taken off and he loved it.  Now he's injured and basically a field ornament I have him unshod permanently and just trimmed by the farrier, I dont want him barefoot trimmed simply because he has no problems as it is so why change.  I have another horse who is shod permanently, because this is what works for him.  And then 2 retired ponies who are barefoot trimmed.  You just have to see what works for the horse.  By choice, I'd always start barefoot and only shoe when necessary though. I dont like the automatic shoe-the-horse though as default, not all horses should go barefoot but likewise not all horses should be shod!


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## Zargon_91 (26 October 2012)

just out of interest... how many people with barefoot horses have them in work? and i dont mean hacking out a few times a week- i mean schooling for an hour a day, and jumping and competing? My horse used to be shoeless and tbh, he was eating pretty much a barefoot diet because i was feeding him the same thing (for ease over most things) as my sugar intolerant cushings horse. But when i got him fit and started working him properly his feet just couldnt keep up with the wear so he was shod. He also has windgalls on his hindlegs which have reduced significantly since he has been shod. Just wondering if maybe barefoot isnt such an option for serious competition horses? Also to add, my horse has never been shod before I had him- so it wasnt just that his feet werent accustomed to the stresses they were loaded with.


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## cptrayes (26 October 2012)

Hundreds of us. Probably thousands of us. 

I hunt and used to event. Rockley Farm has a mileage log of their team of hunters doing hundreds of miles a season if you check it. There are usually 3 other barefoot horses out with me. Plenty of other people event.


What do you mean by "couldn't keep up with the wear"?  Was the horse unsound?

I wouldn't necessarily attribute the windgall disappearance to shoes. Many horses get windgalls when their workload is increased which disappear when they get used to the additional exercise.


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## Zargon_91 (26 October 2012)

he was getting footy, his feet were wearing unevenly and his soles were coming into contact with the ground because the wall was wearing away to quickly. His legs also started filling, and his windgalls got worse the more he wore down! As i say it couldnt have been transitioning, as he was always shoe less before i had him. I also got him fit very slowly, and only resorted to putting shoes on him about 6 months into owning him- I gave it a try but in his case it just didnt work


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## Meowy Catkin (26 October 2012)

CPT hunts her horses.

My mare is getting fitter having been out of work for 1 1/2 years (Farrier nearly caused her to be PTS) and I'm hoping to not need to shoe again. Now she has progressed to 2 hours of seriously hilly hacking. She finds working on a surface or grass easy, but we like to go exploring and I really need to rake the leaves from the sand school.

ETA. cross posted with CPT - that will teach me to be so slow when typing!


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## cptrayes (26 October 2012)

Zargon_91 said:



			he was getting footy, his feet were wearing unevenly and his soles were coming into contact with the ground because the wall was wearing away to quickly. His legs also started filling, and his windgalls got worse the more he wore down! As i say it couldnt have been transitioning, as he was always shoe less before i had him. I also got him fit very slowly, and only resorted to putting shoes on him about 6 months into owning him- I gave it a try but in his case it just didnt work
		
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The soles are _supposed_ to be in contact with the ground in a ring around the inside of the white line and especially on the toe callous. 

If you were in the same position now asking for advice how not to shoe we would be suggesting that you look at his grass intake and into mineral balancing. 

There are certainly plenty of horses which can cope fine. I've personally owned nine, with no failures, including one who arrived with feet so soft I could bend them with my fingers.


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## Zargon_91 (26 October 2012)

No, i mean his whole sole- and he doesnt get turned out because im at collage and i cant risk him getting kicked- he is a valuble horse to me. He is fed hay, and has a feed balancer with full recommended doses of chelated minerals. Im not against horses not having shoes on, and can apreciate it can be beneficial. Both of the horses ive owned have been without shoes- id prefure them to be that way tbh, its alot cheaper! 
I guess the point im trying to make is that whilst im not against horses being barefoot, and will openly try it- will any of the barefoot people (im sorry i dont know an official title) ever at any point accept that a horse might need shoes?


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## LD&S (26 October 2012)

Zargon_91 said:



			just out of interest... how many people with barefoot horses have them in work? and i dont mean hacking out a few times a week- i mean schooling for an hour a day, and jumping and competing? My horse used to be shoeless and tbh, he was eating pretty much a barefoot diet because i was feeding him the same thing (for ease over most things) as my sugar intolerant cushings horse. But when i got him fit and started working him properly his feet just couldnt keep up with the wear so he was shod. He also has windgalls on his hindlegs which have reduced significantly since he has been shod. Just wondering if maybe barefoot isnt such an option for serious competition horses? Also to add, my horse has never been shod before I had him- so it wasnt just that his feet werent accustomed to the stresses they were loaded with.
		
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I'm a little puzzled regarding your comment about horses in work as it seems you are saying hacking isn't work.
I ride a friend's cob and though at the moment because of weather time etc she isn't being ridden as much as usual she is still hacking out 2-3 times a week for 3-4 hrs and is quite happy striding out across flints, newly surfaced roads etc. I don't jump but her owner used to jump her barefoot and she was often the only horse that didn't slip, she had her shoes removed almost 4 years ago and has been sound every day since. Another of my friend's horses is a tb x she has never been shod and has feet like granite and again copes with any surface but as she's quite young I can't comment on her jumping ability.
Having reread this I think the phrase 'copes with any surface' is misleading as it implies that she only just manages, she walks on stoney ground with as much confidence if not more than a shod horse as her soles are really tough as well as the hoof wall.


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## Zargon_91 (26 October 2012)

it was just kinda covering against people replying who hack for 20 minutes twice a week  im not trying to stir, im generally interested. Id hack mine more if i could! Unfortunately he is very naughty so its baby steps for a while, i wouldnt want to put road users in danger.


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## Meowy Catkin (26 October 2012)

will any of the barefoot people (im sorry i dont know an official title) ever at any point accept that a horse might need shoes?
		
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Every single one of the barefoot people have said that sometimes you should shoe.

Your horse has no turnout at all? 




			I'm a little puzzled regarding your comment about horses in work as it seems you are saying hacking isn't work.
		
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I noticed that too. Ok a quick pootle down the lane isn't strenuous, but when you are doing longer distances or tricky terrain, it's definitely 'work'.


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## Zargon_91 (26 October 2012)

i accept that, yes but like i said above ^^^^
we have access to a turnout ring, so he goes out every day, but eats hay- not grass. He goes out a few hours a day when i go home though. And as far as every barefoot saying sometimes shoes are acceptable, you are the first!


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## Meowy Catkin (26 October 2012)

Not true. CPT did a huge thread on good shoeing.

They have also advised people who are (for example) at livery and can't restrict the diet enough to put shoes on. No-one would want a horse to suffer if the conditions needed to keep them unshod can't be met.

I have four horses without shoes. One is retired, two are young (not in work yet) and the fourth was the one that the Farrier nearly ruined. She can work for two hours without shoes, so I don't think that she needs them. I have a new Farrier now and I would let him shoe my horses, but I really, really hope that I don't need to.


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## cptrayes (26 October 2012)

Zargon_91 said:



			No, i mean his whole sole- and he doesnt get turned out because im at collage and i cant risk him getting kicked- he is a valuble horse to me. He is fed hay, and has a feed balancer with full recommended doses of chelated minerals. Im not against horses not having shoes on, and can apreciate it can be beneficial. Both of the horses ive owned have been without shoes- id prefure them to be that way tbh, its alot cheaper! 
I guess the point im trying to make is that whilst im not against horses being barefoot, and will openly try it- will any of the barefoot people (im sorry i dont know an official title) ever at any point accept that a horse might need shoes?
		
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Zargon if your hay is really high in iron and or manganese or low in copper, then any standard mineral balancer will result in copper deficiency. Copper deficiency can result in flat feet with poor growth.

I always accept that some horses need shoes and many horse/owner combinations need shoes. It doesn't, though, follow that your one horse did. I would have had your forage (and water if you are on a spring supply) tested before I would have shod, but then I am a fully paid up member of the Barefoot Taliban 

Now that you have explained that he has no turnout, you have answered the question anyway. There are many, many horses whose feet simply won't grow fast enough to work hard barefoot if they have insufficient movement. That was very likely to have been your problem.


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## Oberon (26 October 2012)

Zargon_91 said:



			he was getting footy, his feet were wearing unevenly and his soles were coming into contact with the ground because the wall was wearing away to quickly. His legs also started filling, and his windgalls got worse the more he wore down! As i say it couldnt have been transitioning, as he was always shoe less before i had him. I also got him fit very slowly, and only resorted to putting shoes on him about 6 months into owning him- I gave it a try but in his case it just didnt work
		
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I don't understand what you are wanting to hear?

Barefoot didn't work out for you and your horse so you put shoes on.

And that's cool . 

Now you are both happy .

If shoes work for you both then that's all that matters, surely? Who cares what barefooters do? 

The Tank and I did 280 competitive miles at CTR between June and October in his first season.
His hooves never looked better .


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## Zargon_91 (26 October 2012)

oberon- that is exactly what ive been wanting to hear! someone who accepts that there are different ways of doing things, and as long as it works for the horse, who cares! unfortunately i really feel that barefoot or shod is dangerous if the owner doesnt know why they are doing it. The amount of people that truely shouldnt own horses in this country is unreal, and frankly some people (barefoot AND shod) who are so tunnel minded they will swear that only one will work is also alarming- i think its dangerous to have such an unbalanced view.


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## Skippys Mum (26 October 2012)

Sorry Zargon but my horse is priceless to me.  No amount of money could buy him off me.  I value him so much I wouldnt keep him with no turnout as I think it is cruel and unnatural.  I believe someone commented on a thread the other day that it is illegal in either Germany or Switzerland to keep horses without turnout.

As to work, mine SJ's, does XC, hacks, does endurance rides and works for hours in the school.  Since monday, he has done 18 miles of roadwork.

Maybe I'm just lucky


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## Zargon_91 (26 October 2012)

mine isnt in his stable 24/7 if thats what youre thinking... he goes out whenever i am home but theres been a few horses at collage break their legs due to kicking! its not ideal, i am well aware, but when there are less horses out, he does go out (booted to the nth degree!) i lost my old horse in june, im not about to loose another one if i can help it. He is happy, he is well fed, sheltered etc. He goes on the walker, in sand arena turnout with hay, ridden every day, hand grazed when i can. I just cant loose him to something as simple as a kick.


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## Oberon (26 October 2012)

Zargon_91 said:



			oberon- that is exactly what ive been wanting to hear! someone who accepts that there are different ways of doing things, and as long as it works for the horse, who cares! unfortunately i really feel that barefoot or shod is dangerous if the owner doesnt know why they are doing it. The amount of people that truely shouldnt own horses in this country is unreal, and frankly some people (barefoot AND shod) who are so tunnel minded they will swear that only one will work is also alarming- i think its dangerous to have such an unbalanced view.
		
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I quite agree.

The issue that we people who are interested in hooves find is that shoes work really well.....until they don't work.

Then the answer from *most* professionals is more shoes, then more special shoes, then different special shoes........then a bullet......

Most of us who have been in 'the business' for a while aren't anti-shoe at all. Nothing is black and white.

But when a shoe is part of the problem and causing the hoof to be unhealthy (along with 'the best diet the feed company recommends' ) then it's very frustrating when a break from shoes is never part of the equation.

Make no mistake - horse are STILL dying because of 'incurable' lameness. Some (not all) could be saved by just adjusting the diet and letting the horse grow a healthy hoof. But they never get a chance because no one suggests it as an option.

I have a huge problem with that


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## Zargon_91 (26 October 2012)

education is obviously the way forward- in all spheres


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## Zargon_91 (26 October 2012)

just to hijack the thread because there are so many people here... 

https://www.facebook.com/princefluffykareem?fref=ts

has anyone else seen this page?? 
the work they do is outstanding


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## Oberon (26 October 2012)

Zargon_91 said:



			education is obviously the way forward- in all spheres 

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Sadly - old grudges, egos and mistrust often mean both 'sides' won't work together .


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## Bikerchickone (26 October 2012)

Sadly today I've seen a post on facebook from somebody who is a friend of a friend and has just had their horse pts for incurable lameness caused by navicular and ddft problems. I could've cried with her  

So sad that so many equine lives are being lost due to closed minds from professionals involved in their care. I try to spread the word everywhere but some people look at you really strangely when you try to suggest something their vet hasn't.


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## Zargon_91 (26 October 2012)

What are youre views on natural balance shoes? Just out of interest? 
Would you use them over normal shoes if for whatever reason (be it due to unsatisfactory lifestyle etc) youre horse had to wear shoes?

Just asking because my girlfriends horse has natural balance shoes, and he is loads better than in normal or even with quarter clips. He wont tolerate barefoot, and circumstances mean that a change in diet to transition him isnt a possibility right now. 

Is this a middle ground possibly?


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## Oberon (26 October 2012)

Natural Balance shoes were invented by a farrier (Gene Ovnicek) who went and studied wild hooves around the same time that 'barefoot guru' (and nut job) Jaime Jackson did.

Gene (like Jaime) came back from that time in Nevada forever changed on how he thought about hooves.

Jaime developed 'the wild trim' and the militant AANHCP.

Gene developed Natural Balance shoes.

They are intended to allow a better break over and some sole stimulation at the toe callous.

However they are still a fixed, nailed on structure. The hoof mechanism can't engage fully and the back of the hoof and the very important frogs can't develop as they're lifted off the ground and out of the action. Plus medio/lateral balance can still be off - even with the best farrier.

So, like any shoe. They work until they don't work. 

You can't shoe or trim a shoe sick, weak, hoof healthy again.

The best way to handle shoeing is to shoe when you need to. And then allow a break off season. 

The loss of this practice has met with an upsurge in navicluar and other lamenesses - despite the UK having some of the best trained farriers in the world.


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## Zargon_91 (26 October 2012)

what are you basing the foot mechanism cant work on? Sorry, im really not being an ar***hole, im an academic, its how i work  
The problem ive always had up until now (Thankyou  ) is people that advocate barefoot trimming when ive asked them have always just said, because its the way they are supposed to be... etc etc. I understand i might not be the most patient or tactful person in the world, but to me that answer has never been enough. Afterall, domestic horses are not the way they are supposed to be anyway. I personally shoe, when i need to, because it works for me but also because the benefits of shoeing are proven. (of course there are always exceptions) This doesnt mean im not open to trimming, but the name on the forefront of my mind when thinking about anyone trimming my horse is always Strasser...


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## TarrSteps (27 October 2012)

Zargon_91 said:



			. Afterall, domestic horses are not the way they are supposed to be anyway....
		
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To be fair, structurally they are.  If they are managed with an eye to how the system is "meant" to work - forage based diet, steady movement, peer companions - they tend to do better and last longer. Of course our wishes for them often mean they are used in very unnatural ways - being ridden, most obviously - and so the trick is to balance their management to best address different needs.  Activities like repetitive jumping ARE unnatural for horses from a mechanical perspective and result in the wear and tear we take for granted.  (Of course, other things, like colic and injuries, which we can successfully treat can kill(ed) wild and feral horses!) The question is does this then necessitate unnatural management practices - cereal feeds, shoeing, clipping, stabling etc - and where is the balance? 

As far as the wisdom of the sole and frog touching the ground being cause for debate, why would that be?  Why would all hooved mammals be designed that way if it was "wrong"?  We may shoe for the expectations we now put on horses but that's not the same conversation as arguing we've improved on the design over all. . Again, swings and roundabouts.

I do think there is always compromise and that any strictly held belief is suspect. I have had horses shod for competition purposes and will likely continue to do so if they need it.  I do not generally like to shoe horses at the backing stage if I can avoid it and have had a surprising number reach the showing stage without needing to be shod.  Courses for horses. 

Btw, using Strasser as a touchpoint is quite emotive.  I don't know too many "hoof care professionals" who hold such extreme views and think most of them would be offended to be lumped in with that approach.  Again, moderation and understanding. .. .


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## Goldenstar (27 October 2012)

Zargon_91 said:



			just out of interest... how many people with barefoot horses have them in work? and i dont mean hacking out a few times a week- i mean schooling for an hour a day, and jumping and competing? My horse used to be shoeless and tbh, he was eating pretty much a barefoot diet because i was feeding him the same thing (for ease over most things) as my sugar intolerant cushings horse. But when i got him fit and started working him properly his feet just couldnt keep up with the wear so he was shod. He also has windgalls on his hindlegs which have reduced significantly since he has been shod. Just wondering if maybe barefoot isnt such an option for serious competition horses? Also to add, my horse has never been shod before I had him- so it wasnt just that his feet werent accustomed to the stresses they were loaded with.
		
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I have three BF horse at the moment, I am new to BF the one of mine who is BF the longest has been without shoes just over a year now.
I have no doult that most dressage horses could be quite easily managed BF mine works six days a week does as much road work was I need to and just the same as the shod one I have, recently we have started taking him to the forest where he is fine on stoney tracks rough roots big stones etc.
Funnily with my three all I have seen is a reduction of windfalls and the like the horse above has completly reabsorbed one splint and the other has reduced by 50% since he went BF I speculate that they where caused by the stress caused by the farrier shoeing for the perfect foot shape ,the horse is slighly pidgeon toed .
One of the others is a 6 yo TB only out of shoes since April he has had some surgery over the summer so has not been in full work he is now ready for clinics and small shows he's jumping very well and feels very secure and safe when you are riding him.
The final one is my multitasking carriage horse his shoes have off seven weeks and he's the quickest so far to make the change I suspect he will be in the carriage BF by Christmas .
I have approached  this as I would any serious new management / conditioning  system  studied put in a system ,changed and adjusted as I learnt going along I have a great trimmer on board whose wife does endurance without shoes and have learnt so much from him.
I also have the help of a slightly reluctant vet who is now much more onside.
The biggest issue as I see it is the time it takes to get them up to full work a year on and my first one is still changing and improving his foot shape however that may be something to do with the extreme caution I approached it with at first and the fact his slightly turning in legs where suffering with his shoes ( alarmingly he showed no symptons of this at except the splint)


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## Hoof_Prints (27 October 2012)

I have my competition horse barefoot, although he's mostly still in training he does a LOT of work on his feet! he had the shoes taken off the week after i bought him as the shoes had caused his heels to close together and his balance was poor. The horse is work 6 days a week, which consists of schooling for an hour (mostly trot and canterwork) on sand, jumping sessions which can go up to 1hr 1/2, lunging with groundwork and freejumping 35 mins, hacking with a lot of rough terrain and roadwork for up to 5 hours! (but usually around 2-3), xc schooling 2hours at a local course with hills and gravel/sand type landings, when we go to a particular show is takes an hour there and back with all sorts of ground. This is not the weekly routine btw, just examples of what he does  He gets days off or gentle walks after particularly hard working days!

So yes, lots of work and never been better with his shoes off  He is kept on low sugar diet, is fed happy hoof, balancer, MSM supplement, and Alfa A molasses free. He also lives out.

My other pony is barefoot- she tore a tendon in her shoes, and since theyve been off she has been 100% sound- she does a lot of the work my other horse does- but has more days off. 

I do look after 3 shod horses and ride them, and would never dream of taking their shoes off as the shoes basically hold their feet together! Having said that, since I have been feeding one of them and managing him similar to my own, his feet have improved beyond recognition and I feel within a few more months he could cope with at least his back shoes off. When hacking I do find that my barefoot horses do feel the odd sharp stone, but I feel it weighs up quite insignificantly against the benefits of having their shoes off.


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## TigerTail (27 October 2012)

Hoof_Prints said:



			So yes, lots of work and never been better with his shoes off  He is kept on low sugar diet, is fed happy hoof, balancer, MSM supplement, and Alfa A molasses free. He also lives out.
		
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No problem if its working for you but if you get any footiness issues, take out the happy hoof - it contains molglo - which is a mix of soya and molasses  Also depending on which balancer you are using as these often contain molasses, especially if pelleted!

Both of mine are barefoot, both hack on all terrains no problem. I take issue with the 'just hacking out a few times a week' the happy hackers amongst us take out horses on far more varied terrain than a sand school and grass x country  I know several people who hunt and 3 day event bf so its not a problem for anyone.


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## Pale Rider (27 October 2012)

Reading Zargon_91's post, I find it strange and disappointing that this horse didn't transition well, despite what appears a reasonable amount of exercise, and the 'pretty much' barefoot diet.
Obviously a massive hole somewhere in the regime, interesting though.


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## dark_prince (27 October 2012)

I think it depends on the horse, their situation and what is required of them.
I also wouldn't say it's just unshod horses that get abcesses. 
I do agree to some extent that some people will choose to believe that unshod is always better, without taking into consideration that each horse is different etc. But you could also say the same about people who always say that a shod horse is better. I suppose it does depend on your experience.


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## Oberon (27 October 2012)

Zargon_91 said:



			what are you basing the foot mechanism cant work on? Sorry, im really not being an ar***hole, im an academic, its how i work  
The problem ive always had up until now (Thankyou  ) is people that advocate barefoot trimming when ive asked them have always just said, because its the way they are supposed to be... etc etc. I understand i might not be the most patient or tactful person in the world, but to me that answer has never been enough. Afterall, domestic horses are not the way they are supposed to be anyway. I personally shoe, when i need to, because it works for me but also because the benefits of shoeing are proven. (of course there are always exceptions) This doesnt mean im not open to trimming, but the name on the forefront of my mind when thinking about anyone trimming my horse is always Strasser...
		
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You are right not to accept half hearted explanations. And we learnt a lot from Strasser (and Jaime Jackson in the early days....as they both teamed up initially) about how NOT to do things and that trimming was a very small part of the whole process. 
Strasser did publish some interesting work on natural boarding and practices. It's just sad that her trimming methods were excessive and her writing style was hysterical.

So the hoof mechanism - 

The horse loads the leg and the coffin bone presses down onto the hoof capsule.







The force pushes the heels apart and the hoof expands slightly.

The (pink) digital cushions (when well developed and muscular rather than flabby) act like ballistic jelly and absorbs some of the concussion.

The frog acts as a hinge/elastic band when loaded and unloaded.

The bars lock the wall into shape and prevents the wall from over expanding when loaded.







At peak load onto the frog and sole, the blood supply is forced shut and trapped blood pools in the hoof capsule which (along with the digital cushions) acts as a concussive dampener and heat dissipation. Pressure from the trapped blood builds.

The horse starts to unload the hoof - the pressure from the trapped blood at the sole, the action of the frog (which pings like an elastic band) and the bars, means the hoof contracts and blood shoots back up the leg.

http://www.extension.org/pages/10378/blood-pumping-mechanism-of-the-hoof

A bare hoof shares the load between the heel, frog, sole and wall and each plays a part in the mechanism.

A shod hoof will still behave as above, but the nature of loading solely on the wall, the fixed nature of the metal and the tendency for the digital cushions, frogs and heel to be flabby and weak.....means the hoof is hampered from expanding, engaging all the suspension apparatus, and also from trapping the blood completely (which is why shod hooves have less circulation). 

You can often see the attempts by the hoof to expand via wear patterns in the heel area of used shoes.







Remedial shoes such as heart bars, egg bars and Imprints are an attempt to engage more of the hoof than traditional shoes and there have been several inventions over the years 
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=559648&highlight=shoes

But the issue is that you can't bully the hoof into being strong and well formed, so remedial shoes tend to allow more comfort for a while - but they aren't always an answer to a sick hoof.


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## Ladyinred (27 October 2012)

^^ One of the clearest explanations I have ever read. Thank you Oberon.


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## maccachic (28 October 2012)

Mine is BF competition horse.  He hunts, events, dressages and SJs.  He is worked up to 6 days a week (all going to plan) for 1hr ish per day, on grass and sealed roads, some gravel and the beach.  

He is also trimmed by a strasser trained professional who I highly recommend (NZ based however).

He was trimmed by someone who had a less training when I first went to BF and I had ongoing seedy toe isses, changed trimmer to someone who knew what they were doing mechanism wise and seedy toe/cracks etc all gone now.


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## Mitchyden (29 October 2012)

Oberon said:



			The force pushes the heels apart and the hoof expands slightly.
		
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Does this mean that I'm causing my horse problems by putting her in Easyboot Gloves? Unfortunately I cannot get her completely sound over stones in the summer without keeping her off grass 24/7 which means being stabled. She goes fantastically in these boots but now you've made me wonder if I'm harming her by wearing boots for sometimes 3-4 hours at a time?


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