# Back straps on gag bits



## Gamebird (21 October 2011)

Just a musing really.

I have used a back strap on a Neue Scule Universal before to good effect - good for horses who don't like too much 'gag' action - and wondered why people don't use them more often with other sorts of gags.

I think I've (very) occasionally seen them used with a 3-ring gag - mostly by pro yards - but never with a bit like a Tom Thumb or with any other sort of bits. I get the impression that the concept came in with Neue Schule but perhaps people have been doing this for years?

Why aren't they more regularly used and who uses one with anything other than a universal/3-ring gag?


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## photo_jo (21 October 2011)

I've been using one on a nathe combination but the bit broke in half


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## quizzie (21 October 2011)

I am using one with a wrapped curb chain on a 3 ring gag. It enables me to use a gentler mouthpiece, & , by spreading the action, I can be a lot softer with the hand. In general,the horse I use it on responds well to curb chain bits, & SJs well in a kimblewick, but I wanted something with a slightly different action xc so he didn't confuse the 2 phases!.


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## Bubbles (21 October 2011)

My trainer ran xc with a strap on a tom thumb on my horse, haven't tried it myself but she felt it helped.


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## meardsall_millie (21 October 2011)

Can I have a minor whinge?   I desperately feel the need to get this off my chest 

The 3 ring snaffle together with some other bits commonly referred to as gags (including the completely inappropriately named 'American Gag') are not gags!  They don't have the same action as a true gag (eg a Cheltenham gag) - ie they don't raise or elevate the horses head (no matter what the bit may be called or what the manufacturers fancy website may tell you  ).  They actually have a similar action to a curb bit (encouraging flexion of the poll) but without the curb chain.

The addition of a back strap doesn't give the same action as a curb chain (which encourages relaxation of the lower jaw), as it doesn't sit in the curb groove, it simply stops the bit rotating too far (so reducing the poll pressure).  It should also be used with caution as the bones higher up the jaw are very delicate and are easily damaged (or at the very least cause soreness or bruising).

With some of the bits, the addition of a back strap will not make a huge amount of difference, it really depends how long the shanks are and therefore how much leverage there is.

Phew - thank you.  Feel much better now.  

(Sorry GB, didn't mean to hijack but it seeing as you were the OP, and you have broad shoulders  it seemed an appropriate place for my moan  )


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## ecrozier (21 October 2011)

Meardsall_Millie - how does a curb chain encourage relaxation? Never used one myself so just wondering?
I use a curb strap on my Arab in his universal gag - which I use roundings on - and he certainly seems to prefer that to the same bit without. 
I do wish more people understood that the 3 ring snaffle/gag whatever you call it isn't designed for use with one rein on bottom ring though


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## meardsall_millie (21 October 2011)

ecrozier said:



			Meardsall_Millie - how does a curb chain encourage relaxation? Never used one myself so just wondering?
I use a curb strap on my Arab in his universal gag - which I use roundings on - and he certainly seems to prefer that to the same bit without. 
I do wish more people understood that the 3 ring snaffle/gag whatever you call it isn't designed for use with one rein on bottom ring though 

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The curb bits work on a system of levers which work on various points of the horses head - the poll, the curb groove, the tongue and the bars.  As the shanks move back pressure is applied to the poll encouraging the horse to flex, the curb chain tightens into the curb groove, and 'tightens' the bit in the mouth resulting in additional pressure on the tongue and bars encouraging the jaw to relax (to escape the pressure) and the nose to retract.

It's essential the curb chain is correctly fitted - too loose and it will allow too much rotation of the shanks (extra poll pressure) and will allow the chain to move too high out of the curb groove onto the sensitive jaw bone.  Too tight and it will result in constant additional pressure on the tongue and bars, possibly causing the area to numb and bruise.

(Sorry, I'm turning into a bit geek  )


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## Gamebird (21 October 2011)

meardsall_millie said:



			The 3 ring snaffle together with some other bits commonly referred to as gags (including the completely inappropriately named 'American Gag') are not gags!
		
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s'OK, I realise that. I guess I was just being sloppy in my terminology and using the common names 



meardsall_millie said:



			The addition of a back strap doesn't give the same action as a curb chain (which encourages relaxation of the lower jaw), as it doesn't sit in the curb groove, it simply stops the bit rotating too far (so reducing the poll pressure).  It should also be used with caution as the bones higher up the jaw are very delicate and are easily damaged (or at the very least cause soreness or bruising).
		
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I think that's why I quite like them - I would prefer a 'brake' on the angle of rotation and I'm more worried about the adverse affects of poll pressure than pressure on the underside of the mandibles. Having had a horse who became neurotic about poll pressure I'm not keen to create the same problem again. I also had one who developed a perfect line of white hair across her poll after a season hunting in a (correctly fitted and used!) Cheltenham gag. She never seemed sore or bothered but it bothered me a bit.



meardsall_millie said:



			(Sorry GB, didn't mean to hijack but it seeing as you were the OP, and you have broad shoulders  it seemed an appropriate place for my moan  )
		
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Is that what you call a backhanded compliment?  They're pretty broad, both literally and figuratively, and I may have let the side down a little initially with my sloppy terminology. You may considered my hand slapped! 

Now my moan - weymouths with no curb which are free to rotate through >90 degrees. Can't even begin to imagine the degree of poll (and bar) pressure produced from what's supposed to be an instrument of finesse.


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## OneInAMillion (22 October 2011)

meardsall_millie said:



			They don't have the same action as a true gag (eg a Cheltenham gag) - ie they don't raise or elevate the horses head (no matter what the bit may be called or what the manufacturers fancy website may tell you  ).  They actually have a similar action to a curb bit (encouraging flexion of the poll) but without the curb chain.
		
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Finally, someone who speaks sense!!! When searching for a bit I was told by some of the "names" on here a gag would raise the horses head - thought I must be crazy when I was convinced poll pressure would lower the head   

Anyway I always use one with a backstrap now - imho the action is much more how it was intended than without as without rather than exert proper poll pressure the bit just lifts up in their mouth


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## Laafet (22 October 2011)

I use a back strap on my Dutch Gag or 'Continental Snaffle' whatever we are calling it now! (LOL) I have found that my horse prefers the action more with the strap on, I usually ride him in a snaffle but he gets strong cross country so rather than heave of his mouth constantly I just up the bit a little, he then canter along happily with his head in a normal position so he can see the fences. But then we don't use a martingale either due to his habit of tucking his nose on his chest.
My personal bug bear is roundings used on anything, its like riding with the hand brake on.


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## shortstuff99 (22 October 2011)

I used to use a chinstrap on my 'dutch gag/snaffle thingymebob'. I used it to stop the bit rotating to much, giving me more control jumping as my mare had a tendency to run through me when jumping. I think someone may have said to me once that they should always be used with a strap.


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## _EVS_ (22 October 2011)

OK now I am really confused?! I though the principle rule of thumb as it were was that anything above the snaffle ring lowered the head and anything below raised it and therefore the 2 together created the gag effect hence the dutch gag?

My horse came to me in a Dutch Gag and when I asked for suggestions of altenatives on here cos he was going round BTV and then throwing his head up in front of jumps I was told it was the DG causing it 

Please help my addled brain cos if I dont understand correctly what the gag is doing I'm not going to be figure out what it is he doesnt quite like!!!

Sorry to hijack the thread GB but I do find bits quite fascinating and in response to your earlier thoughts I do remember some years ago going to a lesson on a previous horse with a SJ 'name' who after watching me for 10 mins promptly whipped off my flash and turned it into a backstrap on the Dutch gag!

Kettle chips and wine to the most helpful explanation!!!!


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## ecrozier (22 October 2011)

How do roundings act as a handbrake? Eg on a universal gag, I thought they made the action somewhere between that of the rein just on lower ring or just on snaffle ring?


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## meardsall_millie (22 October 2011)

EVS - never believe all you read on HHO!   Of all the things that drive me nuts on here (and there are many ), the misconception that a 3 ring snaffle will raise the horses head is probably the worst 

In simple terms, to raise the head, the bit needs to act on the lips - a true gag (Cheltenham, Nelson, etc) will do this - of course it will also work on the poll and encourage flexion. 

A snaffle will also act on the lips and raise the head (of course to a much lesser extent than a gag) when the horse is working in a longer and lower outline.  As the horse works in a higher outline the snaffle will act more on the tongue and then the bars.

I've already waffled about how the curb bits work - it's a very different action to the gag!


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## ester (22 October 2011)

I use one on frank, (well spare flash strap!) purely to stop the 3 ring gag over rotating. You can see it in this pic 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 . The gag def brings his head down (stops the oggle at thing in distance thing too!) but he doesn't lean on it like he does his pelham.


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## SpottedCat (22 October 2011)

So Heather from Neue Schule bit advice line told me that the Dutch gag has a head raising action...and it certainly did on my horse, who threw his head in the air and ended up jumping the string at one event when he ran through the bridle...

She told me to ditch it and go for a Waterford or jointed Pelham, used with roundings, perhaps the most hated of all HHO random bit prejudices because it is a bit that 'can't work' coupled with something that is just lazy horsemanship for those people who can't be arsed to use two reins. Because of course a Pelham with a break in it can't work as a pelham and despite the fact that a bit with only one mouthpiece can't possibly have a separate snaffle/curb action with 2 reins, HHO laws of physics are somehow different to the rest of the known universe. Probably the fault of CERN since they discovered stuff that travels faster than light.


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## _EVS_ (22 October 2011)

M_M - thanks for this - so any bit advice for a strong/spooky SJ-er who gets hold of the bit and can fling his head up when coming into jumps ie need something so keep him round and softer (he is fine/soft when schooling!)??

(He does panic a bit bless him and I have just started lessons with a BS accredited coach who I hope will also help)


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## ester (22 October 2011)

SC, I reckon all horses are different!

I thought the jointed pelham issue was that there is a risk that the you will just end up squashing (for want of a better word!) the lower jaw between the nutcracker action and the curb chain.


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## SpottedCat (22 October 2011)

Ester how would that work? If the nutcracker action is the issue then surely as you bring the sides together then because the chain hangs on the rings it slackens the chain? Plus the action on the rein can't possibly bring the two halves of the bit closer together - unless everyone else uses their reins very differently from me - but I tend to find that the horse's neck prevents me from pulling the reins in such a way as to bring the two halves of the bit together...  That is also why it makes no sense to use the bit across your arm to 'feel the action' - unless of course you intend to pull downwards on your reins under the horse's chin when sat on it.


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## meardsall_millie (22 October 2011)

SpottedCat said:



			So Heather from Neue Schule bit advice line told me that the Dutch gag has a head raising action...and it certainly did on my horse, who threw his head in the air and ended up jumping the string at one event when he ran through the bridle...
		
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But with respect SC () that's hardly raising the head and elevating the shoulders in a controlled manner is it - possibly a touch of evasion?!

(And Neue Schule have a bit called the Elevator - don't even get me started on that )

I quite agree with you about the jointed pelham - possibly the biggest dichotomy of the bitting world - however it's just one of things that works for some horses.  Go figure!

Anyway - why are you on here and not getting plastered at the event party?!


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## only_me (22 October 2011)

Very confused!

A True gag's (cheltnem gag etc.) action is to raise the head - right or wrong?

The neue scheule universal bit's action is to lower the head? 

The dutch gag (bubble bit/3 ring gag - Although I refuse to call it a 3 ring snaffle - cos it isn't imo!) 's action is lower the jaw but in effect raises the head (and could shorten the neck?)?

Just trying to get it the right way round - would be very grateful if someone could explain!


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## SpottedCat (22 October 2011)

Having dinner! I don't particularly 'do' getting plastered either. I appreciate that means I'm probably not fit to be an eventer, but then again I think I also proved that quite well today too!!


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## SpottedCat (22 October 2011)

Also - Heather was pretty blunt with me - she said words to the effect of 'people use this bit thinking it will lower the head when in fact it has a head raising action'. Now I'm no bitting expert, hence calling their helpline, so I went with what the expert told me...


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## ester (22 October 2011)

lol no idea, probably another example of a fallacy that goes round. Have heard both that version and that you cannot engage the curb chain as it will become slack.. obv these two theories are complete opposites!


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## meardsall_millie (22 October 2011)

SpottedCat said:



			Also - Heather was pretty blunt with me - she said words to the effect of 'people use this bit thinking it will lower the head when in fact it has a head raising action'. Now I'm no bitting expert, hence calling their helpline, so I went with what the expert told me...
		
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And I think that's the problem - if they don't know, how the heck are the rest of us supposed to muddle through?  

EVS - I'm really sorry (and I'm genuinely not being rude) but I wouldn't even try to offer advice on which might be a good bit to try over the internet without knowing you - your riding ability and experience, and your horse - its way of going and conformation.  Do you have an instructor or know someone experienced in bitting? - I would have a chat with them, and they will be able to give you some really sound advice


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## SpottedCat (22 October 2011)

But everything she suggested did work as it was supposed to for me...so I would use her again. Everything she said was spot on. She did tell me why it has a head raising action but I really cannot remember the explanation, which isn't much help!!


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## meardsall_millie (22 October 2011)

only_me said:



			Very confused!

A True gag's (cheltnem gag etc.) action is to raise the head - right or wrong? - Yes (and flexion of the poll)

The neue scheule universal bit's action is to lower the head? - No

The dutch gag (bubble bit/3 ring gag - Although I refuse to call it a 3 ring snaffle - cos it isn't imo! - then we'll have to agree to disagree!) 's action is lower the jaw but in effect raises the head (and could shorten the neck?)? - No

Just trying to get it the right way round - would be very grateful if someone could explain! 

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My comments in red are 'in a nutshell' answers - see my long waffles earlier in the thread for a full explanation!


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## star (22 October 2011)

i use a french link jointed pelham with roundings out hunting.  Shoot me now!  I know it is considered a hideous combination of bad things but it works for my horse.  the curb chain most definitely does come into action when you pull on the reins because i can tell when it's kicked in as it's what actually stops my horse!  i can stop him when needed, hold him in the right place in the field and he doesn't chuck his head in the air and run away.  I'm going to stick with it!

for XC I'm still experimenting - I put him in a french link 3 ring gag on the 2nd ring after finding him too strong in a french link full cheek but have found he backs off that a bit too much.  Tried it on the top ring but he just went back to what he was like in the french link and tore round madly out of control which isn't fun round Tweseldowns twists and turns!  He's a horse with a naturally high head carriage - he doesn't need anything to raise his head that's for sure.  Was wondering if he might prefer the gag on the 2nd ring with a back strap on it to lessen the poll pressure or given his reaction to curb pressure on the pelham whether he'd back off even more?  I think the pelham would be too much for him for XC.  Also debated putting roundings on the gag between first and 2nd rings to try and get some kind of happy medium?  Any ideas?


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## only_me (22 October 2011)

Great thank you


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## _EVS_ (22 October 2011)

M_M - Thanks and I totally appreciate  what you say given you dont know me etc. Am taking lessons with fab new BS trainer so hoping he will help but also always keen to hear peoples suggestions etc.

thanks for your guidance on the gag


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## racingdemon (22 October 2011)

have read this with interest.... i'm very retro with my bitting choices..... kimblewick anyone? 

but, just thought i'd add, i've had a few horses arrive in 'bubble bits' who went along with their heads in the air, not because of the action of the bit per se... but because they couldn't stand the bit & had found going along like a giraffe evaded it sufficiently!!! (change of bit = happy ponies)

I jump one of mine in a french link kimblewick.... the work of the devil i am sure   

personally i think a bit of retro bitting whereby people could only use a snaffle or a double bridle would be very funny!


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## Baydale (22 October 2011)

racingdemon said:



			have read this with interest.... i'm very retro with my bitting choices..... kimblewick anyone? 

but, just thought i'd add, i've had a few horses arrive in 'bubble bits' who went along with their heads in the air, not because of the action of the bit per se... but because they couldn't stand the bit & had found going along like a giraffe evaded it sufficiently!!! (change of bit = happy ponies)

I jump one of mine in a french link kimblewick.... the work of the devil i am sure   

personally i think a bit of retro bitting whereby people could only use a snaffle or a double bridle would be very funny!    

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Oh I LOVE a kimblewick.  And a gag (retro Cheltenham), often with only one rein. And a pelham (jointed Happy Mouth). I also love a double bridle but I doubt my OH's hunters would thank me for sending them out to work wearing one.  I hate the 3 ring bubble gags and may well have thrown three of them out this week when I was having a clear out. 

Of course we'd love it if they'd all go in a snaffle but at the end of the day the horse will tell you what works and what doesn't, and surely a big part of successful bitting must be down to:

1. conformation - what works for one horse possibly won't work for another differently shaped horse;

2. education - the stage that both horse and rider are at;

3. expectation - that a bit will magically solve any problems with 1 and 2 in one fell swoop.

Seeking a quick fix is understandable - I'm certainly not damning anyone for wanting to make their life easier - but I'm reminded of the saying "better to have a bucketful of hands than a bucketful of bits".


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## meardsall_millie (22 October 2011)

Amen to that Madam Baydale.

You really are a bottomless pit of sayings aren't you......


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## Baydale (22 October 2011)

Nope, I just have three or four favourite ones that I drag out, ad infinitum.


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## Dotilas (23 October 2011)

I used a strap on my 'bubble bit, i found it gave me a much more 'precise feel' and my mare was much happier with the decreased poll pressure.

She was spectacularly strong however, and a double jointed/ french link pelham was recommended to me, as when the curb chain is used, the mouthpiece rotates and so does the middle plate, apparently having a sort of 'dr bristol' action. It worked is all I can say...


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## Tnavas (23 October 2011)

meardsall_millie said:



			Can I have a minor whinge?   I desperately feel the need to get this off my chest 

The 3 ring snaffle together with some other bits commonly referred to as gags (including the completely inappropriately named 'American Gag') are not gags!  They don't have the same action as a true gag (eg a Cheltenham gag) - ie they don't raise or elevate the horses head (no matter what the bit may be called or what the manufacturers fancy website may tell you  ).  They actually have a similar action to a curb bit (encouraging flexion of the poll) but without the curb chain.

The addition of a back strap doesn't give the same action as a curb chain (which encourages relaxation of the lower jaw), as it doesn't sit in the curb groove, it simply stops the bit rotating too far (so reducing the poll pressure).  It should also be used with caution as the bones higher up the jaw are very delicate and are easily damaged (or at the very least cause soreness or bruising).

With some of the bits, the addition of a back strap will not make a huge amount of difference, it really depends how long the shanks are and therefore how much leverage there is.

Phew - thank you.  Feel much better now.  

(Sorry GB, didn't mean to hijack but it seeing as you were the OP, and you have broad shoulders  it seemed an appropriate place for my moan  )
		
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Glad you feel better but unfortunately you are incorrect. You cannot get a curb actioni on a bit unless you can fix the mouthpiece to one place in the mouth. To make a Dutch Gag into a curb action add the back strap to it, then the mouthpiece is held down in the mouth. Then so long as the rein is below the level of the mouthpiece you will get a mild curb action. If the bit is unjointed you will get an increased action.

The dutch gag doesn't work in the same way as the balding or cheltenham gags as these physically lift the mouthpiece high in the mouth and make it seriously uncomfortable for the horse. It doesnt lift the head once it is low towards the ground, it does however raise the head when the horse carries the head at a reasonably normal level. One of the reasons I hate seeing it used with a running martingale.

It does not exert poll pressure until the bit hits the back teeth and then you will get a small amount of leverage that will put a little pressure on the poll.


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## meardsall_millie (23 October 2011)

Evelyn said:



			The dutch gag doesn't work in the same way as the balding or cheltenham gags as these physically lift the mouthpiece high in the mouth and make it seriously uncomfortable for the horse. It doesnt lift the head once it is low towards the ground, it does however raise the head when the horse carries the head at a reasonably normal level.
		
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How exactly do you believe the mechanics of the 'dutch gag' raises the head?

(Not being awkward - a genuine question as this conflicts against my current knowledge of bitting).


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## Gamebird (23 October 2011)

Goodness gracious me. Just look what I started! 

Maybe we could start a competition - who can come up with the best new name for the bit formerly known as the American gag?? 

*Gamebird scuttles back out to her guaranteed-3-ring-gag-free tackroom to check that Carthorse's french link pelham (for XC) and double bridle (for hunting) haven't disappeared in the night*


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## ArcticFox (23 October 2011)

I am not an expert in bitting, but I do believe the 3 ring bit should not be called a snaffle.  If it was we would have to compare it to the loose ring snaffle.  The LR snaffle works that the mouthpiece freely moves on the ring, and the cheek piece & reins also attach - if a horse goes to lean on this, they find it harder as the ring moves - when you take a pull the mouthpiece does not rise.

Like the LR snaffle - the 'dutch gag' or 3 ring bit comes with the mouthpiece attached loosely to the big ring.  This is where imho the similarities end. The cheek piece of the 3RB is attached to a ring above so the big ring is not allowed to move freely. making it more like a gag action - when you pull on the reins, the bit levers and lifts the mouthpiece up the big ring - there fore making the head go up.  It does also have a poll action as it also levers on the cheek pieces but imho the mouthpiece comes into play much sooner than the poll pressure as this is the more sensitive. 

Personally I am not a fan of the 3 ring as every horse I have ridden in it carries their head high - probably due to evasion.  I have used a 3 ring bit with 2 reins to help prevent that.  

again imho, I think two reins are very useful in reducing over bitting of sensitive horses that get strong in the ring.

Anyway, as I said I am no expert but that is my opinion of the 3 ring gag.

Also I hope I have explained my understanding to you, not sure it makes sense!


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## TarrSteps (23 October 2011)

'Straigh (or direct) t action' bits, 'leverage' bits or 'combination' bits. Nomenclature problems solved.


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## Broodle (23 October 2011)

*Wading in waving engineering degree to the fore*

Mechanically speaking, three/four ring bubble bits do pretty much the same thing as a cheltenham gag - when you pull on the reins you reduce the distance between the top of the headpiece and the bit.  Whether your horse equates this 'head squeezing' action to poll pressure/head down or upwards pressure on lips/head up is entirely up to him/her 

Oh, and a pelham with roundings is just a slightly grander looking kimblewick 

No idea about back straps - sorry OP!


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## avthechav (23 October 2011)

Katie_A said:



			*Wading in waving engineering degree to the fore*

Mechanically speaking, three/four ring bubble bits do pretty much the same thing as a cheltenham gag - when you pull on the reins you reduce the distance between the top of the headpiece and the bit.  Whether your horse equates this 'head squeezing' action to poll pressure/head down or upwards pressure on lips/head up is entirely up to him/her 

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Sitting here with my brow furrowed trying to represent the bit and horses mouth with my hands...(its not working!!).  

I had a Cheltenham gag on my strong cobby mare when I was a teenager who used to shove her head down, throw me forwards and tank off.  She went very sweetly in the Cheltenham gag, no fights and everyone much happier....but surely when you pull the rein the bit rises, which does like you say shorten the distance between the headpiece and the bit.  This is prob fairly uncomfortable but also must make the horse want to life head to counteract pressure in mouth...?

Whereas when you pull on the rein on a 3 ring gag, surely the whole thing pivots around the cheeckpiece/ bit joint, putting pressure downwards and slightly inwards on the mouth.  I can't work out how this would cause the distance between the headpiece and the bit to shorten?

.....not being stroppy just curious!!


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## meardsall_millie (23 October 2011)

Katie_A said:



			Mechanically speaking, three/four ring bubble bits do pretty much the same thing as a cheltenham gag - when you pull on the reins you reduce the distance between the top of the headpiece and the bit.
		
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Sorry now I'm confused  (as someone without an Engineering degree )

When you pull on the reins with a cheltenham gag, the bit physically lifts in the horses mouth as it slides up the roundings.

With a 3 ring (as with a pelham, weymouth, etc) the cheek ring above the snaffle ring rotates forward, the shank below the snaffle ring rotates back - there is very little (although I accept there is a small but negligible amount) lifting of the bit in the mouth.


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## avthechav (23 October 2011)

Millie...great minds think alike hahaha!


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## meardsall_millie (23 October 2011)

Ha - avthechav - confusion all round it seems!


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## LEC (23 October 2011)

I think clearly my approach of ignorance in bitting is the way forwards. I prefer the approach of shove it in its gob and if it does not rear or tank off then its a good result.


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## ester (23 October 2011)

LEC said:



			I think clearly my approach of ignorance in bitting is the way forwards. I prefer the approach of shove it in its gob and if it does not rear or tank off then its a good result.
		
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## meardsall_millie (23 October 2011)

Yep - rapidly coming to the same conclusion LEC........


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## LEC (23 October 2011)

actually though I jest the scary thing is 95% of the riding public do just that!!

May I suggest bitless? You can get some excellent results. This is my favourite demonstration of the harmony and joy you can get by being bitless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gbm6ERl5ag


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## meardsall_millie (23 October 2011)

LEC said:



			actually though I jest the scary thing is 95% of the riding public do just that!!

May I suggest bitless? You can get some excellent results. This is my favourite demonstration of the harmony and joy you can get by being bitless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gbm6ERl5ag

Click to expand...


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## Broodle (23 October 2011)

meardsall_millie said:



			Sorry now I'm confused  (as someone without an Engineering degree )

When you pull on the reins with a cheltenham gag, the bit physically lifts in the horses mouth as it slides up the roundings.

With a 3 ring (as with a pelham, weymouth, etc) the cheek ring above the snaffle ring rotates forward, the shank below the snaffle ring rotates back - there is very little (although I accept there is a small but negligible amount) lifting of the bit in the mouth.
		
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Ah, but on a 3/4 ring gag the mouthpiece actually moves around the snaffle ring (in a similar fashion to a loose ring snaffle) at the same time as the shank is rotating back - thus, the mouthpiece moves upwards in the mouth, so that it is closer to the bridle headpiece.  

I rest my case m'lud 

*Slight disclaimer here - I am actually a bit of an ignoramus about bits in general and generally am with LEC on the 'shove it in' approach, but mechanics I do understand!*


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## avthechav (23 October 2011)

Katie_A said:



			Ah, but on a 3/4 ring gag the mouthpiece actually moves around the snaffle ring (in a similar fashion to a loose ring snaffle) at the same time as the shank is rotating back - thus, the mouthpiece moves upwards in the mouth, so that it is closer to the bridle headpiece.  

I rest my case m'lud 

*Slight disclaimer here - I am actually a bit of an ignoramus about bits in general and generally am with LEC on the 'shove it in' approach, but mechanics I do understand!*
		
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ahh ok so as it slide effectively round the snaffle ring the distance shortens- i get that now...(oh god and I am meant to be a science teacher!!!), 

However I would still argue 'your honor' that there is a slight shortening in the distance but after that the pivot action will kick in putting pressure downwards, whereas with the cheltenham gag the shortening just continues...?????

However as a general, very clever, expert biting advice goes...Lec has it sussed!!


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## KatB (24 October 2011)

Would have to agree with the "horse will tell you" approach.... 

However, the dutch/bubble/3 ring bit (won't call it a "gag"  ) has definitely had a head raising action on every single horse I have seen in it. 

As said, the rotation of the top ring will only go as far as the cheeks will let it, and then it lifts in the mouth, having a raising action. It has poll pressure, and I understand was originally "invented" by sjers to  mimic the effect of draw reins... so they obviously thought it should have a lowering action too, but I have seen a majority of horses go inverted in it! FWIW, Lucinda Green takes them out of most horses mouths on her clinics, as she likes them to drop their heads to look, and said no horse will do that in a dutch gag, so dislikes them as a result... 

However, I have also had horses put their heads on the floor in a cheltenham gag.... it all depends whether they are more sensitive in the poll or the mouth I guess


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## Gamebird (24 October 2011)

OK, so a question for the cognoscenti...

There are lots of people who use a NS universal but wouldn't be seen dead near a 3-ring 'gag'. To me the only difference is that the rings are varying sizes and slightly offset of one, and the other is a fifth of the price. I can't see more than a miniscule mechanical difference. So - snobbery or a totally different bit of kit?


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## SpottedCat (24 October 2011)

Gamebird said:



			OK, so a question for the cognoscenti...

There are lots of people who use a NS universal but wouldn't be seen dead near a 3-ring 'gag'. To me the only difference is that the rings are varying sizes and slightly offset of one, and the other is a fifth of the price. I can't see more than a miniscule mechanical difference. So - snobbery or a totally different bit of kit?
		
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I've often thought that....and decided I was obviously missing something fundamental about the universal and therefore probably shouldn't be using it anyway


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## KatB (24 October 2011)

I prefer the universal as the thing I don't like about the 3 ring gag is the extension below and above the mouthpiece is the same, so it has a hugely woolly action! The Universal has a definite head lowering action, and acts a bit more like a beval snaffle, so obviously the small amount of difference in ring placement does make a difference to the horse  Do agree though, the difference looks very non specific...


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## meardsall_millie (24 October 2011)

Sorry Kat..... but how can a 3 ring raise the head and yet a Universal lower it?!

As the main contributor to this thread so far (gobby - me?!  ), I've pretty much lost the will to live and I'm now going to withdraw from the debate and say nothing more


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## Saratoga (24 October 2011)

I've always used a back strap on gags, learned from a SJ trainer of mine. Seems to improve the action of the bit.


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## Llanali (24 October 2011)

QR as not read all of thread- but Star, I'm no expert but when my mare had the same..... Too much in gag on 2nd ring, too little on big ring and full cheek, I went to a bevel bit...... Also sometimes called a loop snaffle? Shires makes one and I use it with two reins....


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## KatB (24 October 2011)

meardsall_millie said:



			Sorry Kat..... but how can a 3 ring raise the head and yet a Universal lower it?!

As the main contributor to this thread so far (gobby - me?!  ), I've pretty much lost the will to live and I'm now going to withdraw from the debate and say nothing more 

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m_m, I have no idea, but having used a universal and a 3 ring on the same horse, and seeing the difference, there is something in it... apparently (something I have read in the quest for knowledge  ) it's due to the distance from the mouthpiece below the bit being less than the distance above the bit... whereas in 3 rings it's equal.


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## Broodle (24 October 2011)

Gamebird said:



			OK, so a question for the cognoscenti...

There are lots of people who use a NS universal but wouldn't be seen dead near a 3-ring 'gag'. To me the only difference is that the rings are varying sizes and slightly offset of one, and the other is a fifth of the price. I can't see more than a miniscule mechanical difference. So - snobbery or a totally different bit of kit?
		
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Mechanically speaking  they seem to me to be pretty much identical, as you say


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## Broodle (24 October 2011)

KatB said:



			m_m, I have no idea, but having used a universal and a 3 ring on the same horse, and seeing the difference, there is something in it... apparently (something I have read in the quest for knowledge  ) it's due to the distance from the mouthpiece below the bit being less than the distance above the bit... whereas in 3 rings it's equal.
		
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Hmmm... Mechanically speaking (sorry, ) this is just a leverage thing, and can only have an impact on how easy it is for the rider to bring the bit into action, i.e. how hard they have to pull to bring the mouthpiece closer to the headpiece.  The head squeezing action is the same whatever the relative sizes of the rings of the shanks. 

As you said earlier, it surely depends on whether the horse is more sensitive in the poll or lips/mouth as to whether their head comes up or goes down.

The clever marketing that goes into expensive bits is really extraordinarily effective!


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## Baydale (24 October 2011)

From my experience of the three/four ring gag, any head-raising action has been resistance to the amount of leverage; none of my horses have, or need, a degree in engineering to tell me that they don't like them. 

I assume that the relative expense of the Neue Schuele (can't do an umlaut, sorry) bits is in the Salox that they're made from, is it not? Unfortunately my horses tell me they like them so I have a little collection. 

I'm kinda losing the will to live here too, but what I'm trying to say is that that horse will tell you what works and what doesn't, so there has to be a degree of flexibility in one's approach to bitting, regardless of what the mechanics, engineers, books and websites tell you.


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## Horsemad12 (24 October 2011)

So should we be using a back strap ;-)


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## Baydale (24 October 2011)

Horsemad12 said:



			So should we be using a back strap ;-)
		
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Do you get the required result without one? 

If not then try one and see if you get the required result.

If that doesn't work maybe the bit isn't the problem.


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## KatB (24 October 2011)

Baydale said:



			I'm kinda losing the will to live here too, but what I'm trying to say is that that horse will tell you what works and what doesn't, so there has to be a degree of flexibility in one's approach to bitting, regardless of what the mechanics, engineers, books and websites tell you. 

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Exactly. Regardless of what the theory is, the horse knows what it wants to do in reaction to what bit, so roll with it


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## camilla4 (24 October 2011)

Baydale said:



			- but I'm reminded of the saying "better to have a bucketful of hands than a bucketful of bits". 

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Trying to avoid jumping in on the debate (following it with interest though!) but have to say that I LOVE this quote, Baydale!!


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## TableDancer (21 May 2013)

Hello, sorry to resurrect this debate but as I've just waded through it I thought I'd see where everyone's thinking is a couple of years on 

I opened the thread as I'm experimenting with bitting for miniTD's little horse: he gets very strong XC, I don't want to bit him up too much as she (like most people) is far from the finished article and can, when things turn out unexpected, be too slow to release the contact  However, from a safety point of view, she needs a bit more than current choice, which is a Waterford Universal with a back strap, as he is grabbing the bit and carting her whenever she turns down hill (and at slightly less than 8 stone there's a limit to what she can do about it...) and also, on occasion, locking on and charging at fences when he thinks he knows what he's doing. 

Previous jockey also found him strong, rode him in a vulcanite pelham, but I'm not a great pelham fan, plus I'm not completely convinced it's the optimal choice for this horse as I've seen the photos of him in it and he looks very short and tight in the neck, which he doesn't do in the Universal.

Having discussed with various friends, my current possible next choices are to stick with the Waterford Universal, which he seems to quite like amd works very well for SJ, and add either a Controller Noseband or substitute a chain backstrap for the spur strap we'd been using... Thoughts, anyone?

Finally *whispers* I'm going to disagree with M_M - sorry  I think bits which act on the poll do, indeed, raise the head. I was taught this iin BHS days, amd it has subsequently been my experience in general. The reason seems simple to me: What does a horse do when it has pressure on it's poll? Eg when it is pulling back when tied, or when you put any sort of pressure behind the ears for any reason? It always raises its head, however ridiculous this seems. A bit putting pressure on the poll therefore raises the head, and for me it is the curb chain action (correctly used), plus the horse's acceptance of the bit and correctly applied leg to hand aids which cause a horse to flex at the poll. Just sayin'


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## Gamebird (21 May 2013)

Wow. There's a blast from the past TD!

I suspect I may not be much help with miniTD - you see them in the flesh and are infinitely more knowledgeable than me  - but if you're concerned about her ability to release the contact quickly enough I'd go for a non bit-related option ie. the controller noseband. In my opinion horses either love them or hate them and you'll know pretty quickly whether it's the answer. At risk of teaching you to suck eggs they do need to be pretty tight to be effective.

A kineton might be another option but obviously is reliant on the rider to make it work, and conversely release it.


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## lucemoose (21 May 2013)

I would use a chain or bar curb on the universal as then at least the pressure is released to some extent. I don't feel comfortable with controller noseband as there is always a constant pressure going on


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## deskbound (21 May 2013)

Hi TD. My small orange friend sounds not dissimilar - show jumps in a happy mouth Pelham with a big link heavy curb, seems to strike a balance between her needing to be in charge  and my ability to offer some guidance... XC have Waterford 3 ring on second ring up plus back strap. Have grackle v tight too (re tightened before mounting) as she holds breath (clever....!). What about a high curb chain in back strap? Or Waterford Pelham? Interested to see where you end up....


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## Baydale (21 May 2013)

Thanks for resurrecting this thread TD, if only that it has provided me with some entertainment in my lunch hour. 

It appears I haven't moved on in the last 18 months with my approach to bitting  as I can't think of anything new to use, or I can, but I'm not sure it would be any use in this situation:

http://www.onlineforequine.co.uk/saddlery-tack/5011-neue-schule-tranz-beval.html

For miniTD's little horse I would probably try a Kimblewick and/or a controller noseband. You could then tweak the type of curb chain you use - single link, double link, leather, elastic - see if that makes a difference. I do love the Universal though so that would be another I'd try, a Waterford Universal sounds great and I assume the Salox means it's less likely to make the corners of the mouth sore as the bog standard Waterfords sometimes do.


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## BeckyD (21 May 2013)

I have almost no experience so have little to offer, but just thought I'd throw a curveball option into the mix - my horse was *very* strong and constantly leant on me/pulled me out of the saddle XC, and I tried so many different bits - including a waterford and universal but not a waterford universal.  He ran blindly in a universal with the tranz lonzenge (with a curb strap) and was dangerous (Lucinda Green said he was dangerous in it) so she suggested waterford, which worked for a few weeks then he just started to lean down on it and again I couldn't stop.  I went back to nathe 3-ring gag which is fine for SJ, but for XC he gets short and tight in it and then flips out (rears). 

I was then recommended to try a Myler with hooks and as my friend had a low port comfort snaffle with hooks, I tried it.  It works.  I don't know how, but it does.  The only bad thing about it is that if I do hang onto his mouth too much before a jump he flings his head about - but that's useful for me as I know I'm going wrong and I know to let go a bit.  I'm guessing it must be more severe than it looks??  He schools sweetly in this though and is much steadier in the contact than anything else.  He doesn't tend to over-react if I get left behind and catch him in the mouth, whereas in the pelham, nathe gag and waterford, he'd have a strop if I caught him.  Obviously I don't intend to catch him!

Just another option to think about.  I think they are supposed to be used with cavesson noseband (I discovered this a couple of months ago) although I use mine with a grackle - I'm not sure whether I should stop doing that.


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## TableDancer (21 May 2013)

Gamebird said:



			Wow. There's a blast from the past TD!

I suspect I may not be much help with miniTD - you see them in the flesh and are infinitely more knowledgeable than me  - but if you're concerned about her ability to release the contact quickly enough I'd go for a non bit-related option ie. the controller noseband. In my opinion horses either love them or hate them and you'll know pretty quickly whether it's the answer. At risk of teaching you to suck eggs they do need to be pretty tight to be effective.

A kineton might be another option but obviously is reliant on the rider to make it work, and conversely release it.
		
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Mm, that was my thinking too, but I'm not convinced that he crosses his jaw and he doesn't open his mouth much, so it may not really help. Plus I am aware of the "constant pressure" issue (see below).



lucemoose said:



			I would use a chain or bar curb on the universal as then at least the pressure is released to some extent. I don't feel comfortable with controller noseband as there is always a constant pressure going on
		
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I agree with you, see above  On the other hand, at least it doesn't involve putting more metal in his mouth...



deskbound said:



			Hi TD. My small orange friend sounds not dissimilar - show jumps in a happy mouth Pelham with a big link heavy curb, seems to strike a balance between her needing to be in charge  and my ability to offer some guidance... XC have Waterford 3 ring on second ring up plus back strap. Have grackle v tight too (re tightened before mounting) as she holds breath (clever....!). What about a high curb chain in back strap? Or Waterford Pelham? Interested to see where you end up....
		
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Yes, the high chain back strap is where I'm leaning towards. Also, making sure I get tension just right, I hadn't really appreciated till reading this thread that if I do it tightly I'm reducing the leverage action, and I think I may have fallen into this trap on Saturday, had it tight as I was thinking that would make it more severe...



Baydale said:



			Thanks for resurrecting this thread TD, if only that it has provided me with some entertainment in my lunch hour. 

It appears I haven't moved on in the last 18 months with my approach to bitting  as I can't think of anything new to use, or I can, but I'm not sure it would be any use in this situation:

http://www.onlineforequine.co.uk/saddlery-tack/5011-neue-schule-tranz-beval.html

For miniTD's little horse I would probably try a Kimblewick and/or a controller noseband. You could then tweak the type of curb chain you use - single link, double link, leather, elastic - see if that makes a difference. I do love the Universal though so that would be another I'd try, a Waterford Universal sounds great and I assume the Salox means it's less likely to make the corners of the mouth sore as the bog standard Waterfords sometimes do.
		
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I have several Kimblewicks in my bitbox  I like the wilkie-type thing we used to use one, but without the yummy mouthpiece, on one of T's ponies years ago... So far no sore mouth corners, I have kept an eye open - partly the Salox, partly the fairly small light person on the other end of the reins  and partly the design of the NS one I think - it has extra long "nodules" on the outside of the mouthpiece as compared to the inner links so that there is a smooth bit in contact with the corners of the mouth


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## SpottedCat (21 May 2013)

You may find that mini-TD gets a different reaction in the pelham anyway - Chatter1 didn't like the GBO at all in the jointed pelham which I jumped him in, and preferred a cheltenham gag, whereas I hated the feel of the cheltenham gag. I say this only because it may end up that you don't see the tightness with mini-TD and the pelham that you saw with the previous rider and the pelham, and at least in the short term you may find that if respect has previously been instilled in a pelham you may at least get a memory of that, which helps break the cycle?

Also, I rang Heather at Neue Schule to get advice on bitting - there was no hard sell, but she discussed with me and then gave me 3 ideas, the final being 'Liverpool driving bit and if you can't hold him in that please stop trying to go XC'!!  Luckily the first suggestion worked fine (she suggested waterford pelham, I went with jointed as couldn't find a waterford one in time and the jointed one worked!).


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## deskbound (21 May 2013)

I've played a lot with tightness of back strap, not sure I had it quite right at wkend but trial & error - mine also snatches & goes.... I tried jointed Pelham to no avail but Waterford Pelham on my list of possibles if I get stuck again! Also tried danger Pelham (dressage mouthpiece) & sadly shanks are so short it's pointless. Annoying, but worth a mention in case it's helpful? Mine is also strong on flat....


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## Horsemad12 (21 May 2013)

My mare was doing this at the start of last season (rising 6 and thought she knew it all) and my instructor (well respected and I suspect someone you know from Juniors) had me put her in a grackle and REALLY tightened it up!

We considered a control noseband but luckily she got over that stage and did not need it.

She now has a grackle on done up normally, but every now and then when she gets a bit OTT it gets tightened up for part of a lesson!!


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## TableDancer (21 May 2013)

Thank you all so much for your suggestions


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## TarrSteps (21 May 2013)

BeckyD said:



			I was then recommended to try a Myler with hooks and as my friend had a low port comfort snaffle with hooks, I tried it.  It works.  I don't know how, but it does.  The only bad thing about it is that if I do hang onto his mouth too much before a jump he flings his head about - but that's useful for me as I know I'm going wrong and I know to let go a bit.  I'm guessing it must be more severe than it looks??  He schools sweetly in this though and is much steadier in the contact than anything else.  He doesn't tend to over-react if I get left behind and catch him in the mouth, whereas in the pelham, nathe gag and waterford, he'd have a strop if I caught him.  Obviously I don't intend to catch him!
		
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My "magic bit" (currently with LEC whose horse does not agree  ) is a Myler - it's not so much the "severity" as in the mouthpiece is smooth and the leverage arms are not very long, but in the very specific action of some of their bits.  They "make" the horse do something very specific and if that's what you need for your particular horse, you're good to go.  What you say about not being able to hang on to them is an important point - as they are based on western bits they are not designed to be used that way.  I noticed last time I looked on the Myler site they even had "warnings" on some of their bits now, including a general one about not riding in an "English" way on "Western" bits.


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## TarrSteps (21 May 2013)

SpottedCat said:



			You may find that mini-TD gets a different reaction in the pelham anyway - Chatter1 didn't like the GBO at all in the jointed pelham which I jumped him in, and preferred a cheltenham gag, whereas I hated the feel of the cheltenham gag. I say this only because it may end up that you don't see the tightness with mini-TD and the pelham that you saw with the previous rider and the pelham, and at least in the short term you may find that if respect has previously been instilled in a pelham you may at least get a memory of that, which helps break the cycle?
		
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I know I am teaching you to suck eggs, TD , but this is very much true in my experience, that bits work as part of an organic loop, with the horse, the rider and the situation all making up the balance.  When I used to school a lot of kids horses I often rode them in something very soft and then the kids rode them in a tougher, similar version - however soft I am, I am still a big person, just as MiniTD is, well, mini.  Also, I "like" certain feels, probably because they are familiar and/or they fit my style of riding, so I tend to "like" bits that produce that feel on a horse.  Another rider might go a different way.  Because it's not a confusing enough subject . . .




			Also, I rang Heather at Neue Schule to get advice on bitting - there was no hard sell, but she discussed with me and then gave me 3 ideas, the final being 'Liverpool driving bit and if you can't hold him in that please stop trying to go XC'!!  Luckily the first suggestion worked fine (she suggested waterford pelham, I went with jointed as couldn't find a waterford one in time and the jointed one worked!).
		
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I've also had good luck with bitting advice lines, including suggestions over the years I would likely not have thought of on my own.  But then I don't know much about the subject!


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## PapaFrita (21 May 2013)

Broodle said:



			*Wading in waving engineering degree to the fore*

Mechanically speaking, three/four ring bubble bits do pretty much the same thing as a cheltenham gag - when you pull on the reins you reduce the distance between the top of the headpiece and the bit.  Whether your horse equates this 'head squeezing' action to poll pressure/head down or upwards pressure on lips/head up is entirely up to him/her 

Oh, and a pelham with roundings is just a slightly grander looking kimblewick 

Click to expand...

Not that I want to keep reviving the post, but this is what I thought! Phew.


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## BeckyD (22 May 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			What you say about not being able to hang on to them is an important point - as they are based on western bits they are not designed to be used that way.  I noticed last time I looked on the Myler site they even had "warnings" on some of their bits now, including a general one about not riding in an "English" way on "Western" bits.
		
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Mmm that's very interesting.  If you come across that again can you send me the link?  I've just nosied round the Myler website and can't find it.  Am keen to ensure that I'm using the bit as intended (although hopefully horse would say if he was unhappy - he's not shy in coming forwards to express his discontent).  

My main problem is finding a BD-legal bit that he goes nicely in.  Finding a snaffle with tongue relief that BD might allow, just isn't happening.  It's so frustrating that weymouths are allowed ports, but snaffles aren't.


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## Brimmers (22 May 2013)

BeckyD said:



			Mmm that's very interesting.  If you come across that again can you send me the link?  I've just nosied round the Myler website and can't find it.  Am keen to ensure that I'm using the bit as intended (although hopefully horse would say if he was unhappy - he's not shy in coming forwards to express his discontent).  

My main problem is finding a BD-legal bit that he goes nicely in.  Finding a snaffle with tongue relief that BD might allow, just isn't happening.  It's so frustrating that weymouths are allowed ports, but snaffles aren't.
		
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I'm no dressage expert but I don't think its the port which BD don't allow, its the hook which are the problem because they introduce poll pressure. Bombers bits do some tongue relief bits, may be worth having a look at those to see if they are dressage legal?

Whilst I'm jumping on the bandwagon, my horse SJ in a French link Pelham and the curb definitely does make a difference. Lost it on the way out to a competition on sunday (oops!) and I suddenly had a much stronger horse.


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## TarrSteps (22 May 2013)

Nope, no ports allowed. No hooks either but that's a separate issue. As far as I know Bomber has not yet got its 'regular' snaffles approved, although they did say they were trying. Have you looked at the Informed Design bits' they are mullen mouthed, rather than ported. I'm not SURE they are legal as have never asked directly myself but a student.did ask and was told they were okay. Also, I find some horses that prefer more tongue space like the demi-Anky design.


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## Llanali (22 May 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			I know I am teaching you to suck eggs, TD , but this is very much true in my experience, that bits work as part of an organic loop, with the horse, the rider and the situation all making up the balance.  When I used to school a lot of kids horses I often rode them in something very soft and then the kids rode them in a tougher, similar version - however soft I am, I am still a big person, just as MiniTD is, well, mini.  Also, I "like" certain feels, probably because they are familiar and/or they fit my style of riding, so I tend to "like" bits that produce that feel on a horse.  Another rider might go a different way.
		
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This is a hugely interesting area for me and one we have discussed much recently. I'm pregnant, and have currently got my trainer competing my mare jumping- a 6 month baby bump doesn't produce good folding technique!!- and the lad that rides at home for her has also had a play with mare too. 

He finds her too strong in her eggbutt cyprium snaffle with a grackle, and I like it as does trainer. Trainer also is happy to ride her in more bridle, and I am definitely not! Having ridden her horses, I find them similar to the feel I like, and having ridden his, I find them nerve wracking because they don't provide enough feeling into a fence. I like to be pulled in a bit, he doesn't, trainer goes either way! 

Its not a right or wrong equation, nor is it entirely due to size though I think that is much of it, but I think traditionally we may have overlooked personal preference as well as horse preference when bridling up. I have always gone with what the horse likes, but these days I pay more attention to what I like as well. 

The point about different bits working differently on the same horse in the same scenario with a different rider is key- we have one in a mikmar, and I can't persuade the horse off the floor in it- but his jockey jumps newcomers in it comfortably and the horse loves it!


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## GermanyJo (22 May 2013)

thought I would add something into the mix .. I am also one of those people who hate roundings on pelhams ... however, .. just browsing through my german rule book , checking on what bits are allowed .. for jumping and XC up to and including Novice .. you are only allowed snaffles and pelhams .. what has shocked me is that in the rule book it say Pelhams MUST be used with roundings !! ... but also with 2 reins (attached to the roundings ...... this sounds like absolute nonsense to me ....... esp the 'must have 2 reins attached to roundings .. what is that about ?? I saw someone with that set up the other day and could not work out why anyone would do that .. but now I suppose I know ... 

just hoping now that my boy turns out either to not be strong XC (unlikely) .. or when he is , that he goes in a pelham as the option for breaks until you get to Intermediate seems to be very limited here


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## Brimmers (22 May 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Nope, no ports allowed. No hooks either but that's a separate issue. As far as I know Bomber has not yet got its 'regular' snaffles approved, although they did say they were trying. Have you looked at the Informed Design bits' they are mullen mouthed, rather than ported. I'm not SURE they are legal as have never asked directly myself but a student.did ask and was told they were okay. Also, I find some horses that prefer more tongue space like the demi-Anky design.
		
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Oh how interesting, I was wrong! Any idea why they aren't allowed?


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## BeckyD (22 May 2013)

TarrSteps said:



			Nope, no ports allowed. No hooks either but that's a separate issue. As far as I know Bomber has not yet got its 'regular' snaffles approved, although they did say they were trying. Have you looked at the Informed Design bits' they are mullen mouthed, rather than ported. I'm not SURE they are legal as have never asked directly myself but a student.did ask and was told they were okay. Also, I find some horses that prefer more tongue space like the demi-Anky design.
		
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Tried all of those to no avail   (hard to believe I know!).  He even bolted in the Demi-Anky when cantering and I tried to take a little inside flexion.  Great one, thanks Bill; I really wanted to experience the wall of death around my arena.  Several times. 

Sorry TD for hijacking your post.  Promise I won't say anything more.


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