# Yard Prices - Fed Up



## Omi49 (7 July 2011)

Am I the only one who is fed up with keep paying out and not receiving much for my money and the feeling that they have you over a barrel.
Some of us are actually good clients to have, tidy, pay ontime etc but still that isn't enough for some yard owners.. 
Fed up in Bramshill!


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## Miss L Toe (7 July 2011)

yep, i've moved and even though it is further away, it is working out so far, it was not so much the price it,  was the greed, we were looked on as soft targets and only events that made a cracking profit were laid on. No effort was made to improve/maintain facilities unless increased income resulted. There has been a mass exodus.


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## Omi49 (7 July 2011)

your right it is greed, I don't think I've ever paid so much and received so little!


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## BBH (8 July 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			yep, i've moved and even though it is further away, it is working out so far, it was not so much the price it,  was the greed, we were looked on as soft targets and only events that made a cracking profit were laid on. No effort was made to improve/maintain facilities unless increased income resulted. There has been a mass exodus.
		
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Excuse my ignorance but isn't that how you run a business, you put on events or services to produce an income which is either plowed back into the business or used to maintain it ie pay the bills. 

I really don't think liveries really uinderstand the costs involved in keeping a yard open tbh.


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## misst (8 July 2011)

I think people are unrealistic about how much things really cost. Yards are there to make a profit - no one runs one for fun. If they do not keep up maintainance and facilities then move! If the next yard is better but more expensive that proves the point - it costs money to do these things. Wages, insurance, materials, feed, services etc have all increased everywhere so why would yards be any different? If they do not make a profit they will close. 
I believe, as a client, (and a good one) that it is up to me where I spend my money and how much I spend. The yard offers a service - take it or leave it


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## CHH (8 July 2011)

I agree with MISST, 100%

Livery Yards are a business, they are there to make money.

We have several businesses and they are all expected to make some sort of income/living from them - otherwise what is the point?

I have said this on a previous post - livery yards have overheads, and they are not cheap. All costs increase, including the electricity you use whilst there, the water rates, council rates, etc... and so this list goes on.
Then there is the insurance of the premises and possibly staffing it.

Livery yards vary massively in terms of quality (service etc...), and thus price.

Depending on your disposable income I guess will dictate to you what kind of livery you can afford. If you can't afford much - then don't expect world class facilities.

Maintaining property is expensive, and the idea in business is that your income allows some capital expenditure on such repairs/works/updates. Captial investment - e.g. a new arena requires a return on that investment - so an increase in the income otherwise it's money that may have well not been spent. This could be in the livery instance an increase to livery fees as services are improved.

Be realistic in understanding businesses, the livery yard is no exception.
Whilst this is your hobby, it is a (the yard owners) business to someone else.

If you disagree with a yard, then perhaps look for another one, but you will probably find no yard is perfect - it's which of the imperfections you are happy to live with.

Otherwise buy your property with land and keep them at home, where you can then obviously do exactly what you like and without feeling overcharged.


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## PolarSkye (8 July 2011)

Omi49 said:



			your right it is greed, I don't think I've ever paid so much and received so little!
		
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Well, as you know, that's why I'm moving Kal - roughly same price, far better service (and no hidden extras).

P


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## trundle (8 July 2011)

CHH said:



			I agree with MISST, 100%

Livery Yards are a business, they are there to make money.

[snip]

Depending on your disposable income I guess will dictate to you what kind of livery you can afford. If you can't afford much - then don't expect world class facilities.
		
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But being a business, they should be run in a professional manner. If Yard Owners cannot provide facilities and maintain them in an acceptable state, then they should stop advertising that they have those facilities, and price themselves accordingly. 

I don't think many people are silly enough to expect five-star full livery at DIY grass livery prices, and if they are, they have only themselves to blame. However, if you are paying several hundred pounds a month for livery, on a yard where you expect decent services and facilities, it is reasonable to be aggrieved if you are not getting those services and facilities.


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## CHH (8 July 2011)

Trundle - yes but then one needs to then assume that the person running the yard is both a business person and a professional.

If service is not as expected then people should either discuss or move, perhaps then something may change.
however it could also be likely that the YO has not the funds to make changes, this is common too.

I've met a surprising number of people who run yards who do not have good business approach, horsey or not.

You are right about advertising, they need to be honest about what they offer. 

I've seen adverts of yards I have actually visited and the photos look a whole lot better than the reality, adn the description can be a little 'imaginative' as to what is offered.

Because this is a 'hobby' industry and involves something emotive - the horse, I think this will always be a difficult discussion.

Good yards will charge correctly and behave correctly, as will good customers pay correctly and behave correctly.
Sadly the not-so-great of both are around though.

I hope for those not happy/moving they find somewhere nice to settle, and with a professional person running the yard.


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## FairyLights (8 July 2011)

I have my own place and absolutely refuse to do liveries. I used to but its not worth it. Nobody wants to pay a true cost,think I was running it for fun and not profit and didnt realise the cost of new fencing,repairs insurance etc etc. Then there was the non payers,thouse who wouldnt feed their horses enough hay ,skimpy dirty beds, especially around Christmas time,but all going out partying and buying presents. I just gave up and made them all go away. I enjoy my free space and time with my own horses now. Much better.


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## BBH (8 July 2011)

Sometimes though Hoofit it not just about facilities and costs that determine people staying where they are. 

Things like friendships, convenience from home, arrangements with others on exisiting yard and by this I mean maybe the person has an arrangement with someone on their current yard to turn out if they bring in or transport to shows is available for the cost of a diesel contribution, loads of things could keep people from moving. 

In my experience 1 person rarely leaves a yard on their own normally two or three friends leave together.


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## misst (8 July 2011)

I still do not understand why people complain but stay?? A little moan now and then is normal and healthy but if you really believe you pay over the odds or you feel maintainance is so bad then leave. If you cannot find anywhere better for the same money (which is often the reason given IME) then you need to accept what you can afford - unpalatable but true. 

I live in Surrey and no where is cheap. At present I rent a lovely little spot with a friend from a nice lady. We pay slightly over the odds for it but we like it. I never complain that I pay too much rent because I knew the rent when I took it on. I have, over the years,  been on some rubbish cheap yards and some equally rubbish expensive yards, but life is like that and as a customer you can take your money and horses elsewhere. If I thought my landlady was "greedy" I would not have taken the yard on.  She does, however, need a return on her land and we did not want to share with anyone else. 

Horses are expensive - fact - we need to live with it. Those of us who cannot afford to buy land have to accept a compromise, there are some lovely yard owners out there.


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## smiffyimp (8 July 2011)

Ive seen varoius posts in the past where YO's make no money or are at a loss. My reply - put your prices up!!! As others have already said, livery yards aren't cheap but people seem to want to keep horses for low cost. Sure there are ways to cut the costs of horse keeping, but the basic necessities are still there. Running a business isnt cheap, keeping land and buildings in good order isnt cheap, plus insurance etc etc etc.

However I do agree that if you are paying all of this and are getting rubbish quality and service in return then its time to move. I did exactly this 3 years ago. When paying for full care (while away with work) I expected the horses to be fed (before lunch) turned out (before lunch) mucked out (ie take the wet and the poo out, not scrape around it) and not to have to ask my hubby to go up after work to check they were still alive! When I lost my rag about it, it was never 'her' fault...hmmm.  What you find is that yards like this end up empty - word gets around and people steer clear. As we all know the horsey world is a small one


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## MotherOfChickens (8 July 2011)

£80 a week might sound alright to you now Hoofit when the days are long and there's grass. But what happens if we have another 2-3 months of snow and ice cover? another bad harvest with pricey hay to feed ad lib when those horses can't go out? when it's taking you an extra few hours a day just to provide water? getting paid a pittance then makes you think a bit. Unless your property and facilities are mortgage/debt free I can't see how you'll turn a profit on that. In fact, your rates alone for an indoor are massive up here in Scotland.


fact of the matter is, if we all paid what it actually cost in man hours etc etc to keep a horse at full livery, the majority of us couldnt afford it. the margins are tiny, a bad winter can scupper them and if you want to keep good staff you can't risk laying people off in the summer because you are charging less livery for the same overheads. 

having horses is expensive and there's noone like horse people for expecting others to subsidise their luxury hobby.


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## Miss L Toe (8 July 2011)

BBH said:



			Excuse my ignorance but isn't that how you run a business, you put on events or services to produce an income which is either plowed back into the business or used to maintain it ie pay the bills. 

I really don't think liveries really uinderstand the costs involved in keeping a yard open tbh.
		
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Correct BBH, but if you have minimal costs and the existing facilities have been paid for by the liveries, and the whole of the business relies on cash provided by the liveries, then the liveries get fed up, in the case I am thinking about, 15 people work full time over winter, but only three of them work with horses, and the liveries are DIY!!!
I had better be careful, as this will identify my yard!!!


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## Miss L Toe (8 July 2011)

trundle said:



			But being a business, they should be run in a professional manner. If Yard Owners cannot provide facilities and maintain them in an acceptable state, then they should stop advertising that they have those facilities, and price themselves accordingly. 

I don't think many people are silly enough to expect five-star full livery at DIY grass livery prices, and if they are, they have only themselves to blame. However, if you are paying several hundred pounds a month for livery, on a yard where you expect decent services and facilities, it is reasonable to be aggrieved if you are not getting those services and facilities.
		
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omg are you at my yard?


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## TBB (9 July 2011)

"the existing facilities have been paid for by the liveries" Did the liveries club together and pay for the facilities or did the YO supply the facilities out of the income they received from the liveries? Two very different things! I did think of doing livery at one time but, to be honest, reading the complaints on the Horse and Hound Forums made me rethink, as I have come to the conclusion that it must be impossible to keep some people happy. Yes I do recognise that there are "bad" livery yards, but horses have legs and owners have feet, all you have to do is go elsewhere and if there is no alternative then you will just have to rethink your situation! If all the liveries on these "bad" yards left the YO could either improve things or go out of business and if they cant afford to improve things then they obviously aren't charging enough to make it financially viable or there are other drains on their resources which need to be looked at (by the YO not the liveries).


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## Bosworth (9 July 2011)

Hoofit i wish you luck. My costs for a horse here on full livery are 2Xbedding - £10, adlib haylage, £10. feed £10 a week. so my costs are £30 per horse before any work is done. Then there is turn out and bring in 7 days a week, full muck out. so at your prices I would be receiving £50 a week per horse to cover those costs. Well that means the wage you are paying yourself will be less than £5 an hour. And you have not accounted for business rates, insurance, electricity, water, field maintenance,  fertilising, soil sampling, weed spraying, topping, harrowing, poo picking etc. I charge £120 a week for full livery and to be honest prefer DIY liveries because they pay for what they use when they use it and there is minmal unpaid work required from myself. I still have liveries think that the £30 a week they are paying me enables me to live in luxury. it doesn;t it covers its cost and enables me to maintain the place. 
Costs have gone up dramatically, fertilising cost me £250, then last year £1300. My contractors for weed spraying have moved their costs from £17 and hour for man and machine to £24 an hour. bedding has gone up, haylage wrap has gone up my haylage bales cost me £9 each to make 3 years ago - last year they cost me £14. Great - thats cheap - only £14 a bale - but that is merely the contractors cost. It does not amortise in the cost of grassland maintenance to produce good haylage.  I do not begrudge my liveries i enjoy having them there. I hate the attitude from some - now ex - that they are doing me a favour and I should be at their beck and call and that I am expensive. Vote with your feet, go somewhere else, but don;t think any livery yard is getting rich on livery fees. If they are correctly insured and legal!


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## Miss L Toe (9 July 2011)

I quite agree that costs are rising and profits are limited, for most YO it is a lifestyle choice, otherwise they would not be involved with horses, which are a real pain from a farming point of view, not to mention having to control the horse owners, locally one yard opened with super facilities including a cross country course, the costs were £90 per week summer and winter, so they make profit in summer, and have a lean time in winter, but they were full in a few weeks of opening, a business going somewhere, now has a small yard full of keen competition types and it suits everybody, YO and family do all the work and owners come, ride, tidy up and go home happy.
YO gets extra income from instructing, and now she has her main client base on site, very well worked out strategy imho.


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## Bosworth (9 July 2011)

NO - that £5 an hour includes, the cost of electricity, water, etc. Also you are working it at 10 horses to an hour - so £50 an hour. Realistically each horse will take over an hour over the day at least, to make up feeds, muck out, turn out, rug, pick out feet, groom, bring in, rug, bed down, top up hay/water etc. So it is £5 an hour and you will need 10 hours, so £50 a day! 7 days a week. So each horse will only give you £50 a week. less your business costs. 

Have you added in maintenance costs, have you costed in your time and your parents time? I charge £75 a week part livery - which includes 5 days of me mucking out, bringing in rugs etc, 7 days of ad libhaylage and feed and 1 bedding and owner looks after the horse 2 days a week. 

I would go back and look at your figures of £80 for full livery. I suspect you have not amortised your business rates, insurances including care and control and fire damage to bedding and hay, muck removal, field maintenanc, electricity and water. And I also suspect you have not costed in your time and your parents at at least a minimum wage.


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## Miss L Toe (9 July 2011)

Hoofit, from what I can see of livery yards the main thing is to have a very simple and efficient system,  I know one YO  who feeds Allen and Page Calm and Condition because all horses will eat it and do well on it without fizz, the temptation is to try to manage every horse individually, and that takes time, in one yard I was in we had 160 horses and they all got fed the same nuts, they were top of the trainers league for quite a long while, though I do not advocate such a rigid regime, in another champion trainers yard horses were fed the same, chaff, and mix, but if cantering they got oats, another simple system.
Mucking out takes a lot of time, a large barrow and a close muck heap or trailer saves time, I used to muck out straight in to a trailer, not ideal but I had 12 mares in boxes and fifteen in an open yard, so I had my hands full most of the day, and Monday was a bit of a struggle!!!!! The beds were not ideal but their feet were OK and there was plenty of straw.
I had to resign due to RSI from holding a brush all day!


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## cbmcts (9 July 2011)

I think that a lot of the problems on yards are because they are not run or presented professionally. 

You go and see a new yard and you're told that this is available, that isn't a problem and that certain facilities (all year turnout anybody?) are a given. You can do a certain amount of research but that isn't infallible so you have to take the YOs word to an extent. Most of the time the YOs don't intend to lie but when they have empty stables they want to fill them. Then after you have spent time, money and stress moving you discover that there are caveats so resentment sets in. 

Remember that moving a horse isn't as easy as deciding to shop in a different supermarket but horse owners are consumers - they are paying for a service.
I have never been on yard that has a livery contract so I can't comment whether that would save misunderstandings.

Can I add that I'm not unreasonable, don't think that it's all about meeeeeee and that I'm very clear about what I need on a yard - not looking for x country course, set of show jumps, indoor school, hanging baskets etc but do need turnout, no rigid opening/closing times and a non leaky stable...

Oh and if a livery is taking the pee about something could YOs please man up and deal with that person rather than taking a passive aggressive approach and punishing the whole yard for that persons wrongdoing!

Possibly more yards would become viable businesses if they were run on a pay per use basis ie lower base price for stable, water, electric and turnout and then a weekly/monthly charge for everything else from trailer parking, proper secure tack room, schools, services, bedding, hay. If you want to buy your own for the last two - you could pay for a storage space. Very different from what most of us are used to but when I looked at buying a yard a few years back I had more or less decided that was what I would do if I had gone ahead. The reasoning was that if you had a retired/pet type you wouldn't pay a fortune but peeps who wanted more could have it and hopefully the yard would have appealed to more 'types' of riders. I have to say that I never did the number crunching for the above in huge detail as the mortgage required made it impossible to proceed.


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## hollyandivy123 (9 July 2011)

i have moved round the country for work and consequently have been in a few yards.

most well run, some had weird rules as in you where not allowed to be on the yard after 2pm on a sunday.

i pay on time, always let YO know if my work schedule was taking me off etc. but the one thing i have to admit that gets to me is when there are hierarchy within the liverys and it is propergated by the YO, as in if we are all paying them same to be their, to use the facilties, but some believe they have more rights to use the school or walker etc

i know this is slightly off topic, but as a plea to YM or YO out there, if a person is paying the same as all the others it doesn't matter that the pony is a hairy cob etc they can still use the school even if the baby eventer wants it

just realised i sound bitter and twisted oops


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## Miss L Toe (9 July 2011)

cbmcts said:



			I think that a lot of the problems on yards are because they are not run or presented professionally. 
You go and see a new yard and you're told that this is available, that isn't a problem and that certain facilities (all year turnout anybody?) are a given. You can do a certain amount of research but that isn't infallible so you have to take the YOs word to an extent.
		
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I did read your post, but you found out that you could not run a business in the way you describe, ie it has to have low overheads [rent and rates] and low running costs.
No yard can give 50 different people their own space, it would be impractical to set aside 50 locked areas suited to forage and tack etc, if everything is not locked up it disappears, in every yard this happens, even sometimes by mistake!
As a customer one has to consider the convenience and the cost, but the main thing to me is the welfare of the horse and safe hacking, this is not as important to most people, so there are checks and balances.
I had a very professional presentation by a complete *******, I was really impressed by the hacking as told to me, some people might think it is OK to cross a main road just after a blind corner, I would not! One area I was told I could access was several miles up a narrow track beside a ravine, then I would have to get off and lead my horse through rutted tree roots, highly dangerous, and really impossible, the other route was as steep as Hickstead bank, just twice as high, I would have needed an ice pick and crampons to climb it myself never mind on horseback!


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## Hoofit (9 July 2011)

Holly and ivy "i know this is slightly off topic, but as a plea to YM or YO out there, if a person is paying the same as all the others it doesn't matter that the pony is a hairy cob etc they can still use the school even if the baby eventer wants it"

i hear you plea and take this on board i totlly agree if you all paying for the same thing EVERY one is treated the same way. Thats one of the reasons i only offer full livery it makes life simple for me very horse is kept on the same routine reg feeding times mucking out skipping out etc and every one pays the full livery price or the full livery + horse exercised price.

xxx J


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## cbmcts (9 July 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			I did read your post, but you found out that you could not run a business in the way you describe, ie it has to have low overheads [rent and rates] and low running costs.
No yard can give 50 different people their own space, it would be impractical to set aside 50 locked areas suited to forage and tack etc, if everything is not locked up it disappears, in every yard this happens, even sometimes by mistake!
As a customer one has to consider the convenience and the cost, but the main thing to me is the welfare of the horse and safe hacking, this is not as important to most people, so there are checks and balances.
I had a very professional presentation by a complete *******, I was really impressed by the hacking as told to me, some people might think it is OK to cross a main road just after a blind corner, I would not! One area I was told I could access was several miles up a narrow track beside a ravine, then I would have to get off and lead my horse through rutted tree roots, highly dangerous, and really impossible, the other route was as steep as Hickstead bank, just twice as high, I would have needed an ice pick and crampons to climb it myself never mind on horseback!
		
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No, that yard was viable except that I wasn't in the position to invest the capital due to the economic climate at that time - restrictions on commercial mortages and all that! Admittedly that was a yard with a huge amount of space, both land and on the yard itself so doing a piecemeal/personalised livery was perhaps easier than on others. As it happens I chose to continue my career as it was rather than changing it which buying the yard would have caused. Ask me in 10 years if I made the right decision  A lot of yards do give private storage to avoid the rucks about 'borrowing' and as most of us are aware our tack isn't insured unless the tackroom meets certain standards which include the quantities of tack stored there. Though I still think that yards will prosper if they actually provide a professional (including pricing, I don't expect anyone to work for nothing!) service rather than running it by the seat of their pants, lurching from crisis to crisis because nothing is thought through in advance where the liveries don't know what is happening/permitted from one day to the next and all the drama that goes with it!

I would have thought the welfare of anybodys horse didn't need to be stated - I don't anyone who even thought about moving yard without making that their absolute priority?

As for the hacking - that is just what I meant about being able to check up on what a YO said - you can at least go and look at the local hacking routes in advance but the actual management of the yard is much harder to check. Which does make it hard to know if you've made the right decision until too late...


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## FreddieBoy (9 July 2011)

cbmcts said:



			I think that a lot of the problems on yards are because they are not run or presented professionally. 

You go and see a new yard and you're told that this is available, that isn't a problem and that certain facilities (all year turnout anybody?) are a given. You can do a certain amount of research but that isn't infallible so you have to take the YOs word to an extent. Most of the time the YOs don't intend to lie but when they have empty stables they want to fill them. Then after you have spent time, money and stress moving you discover that there are caveats so resentment sets in. 

Remember that moving a horse isn't as easy as deciding to shop in a different supermarket but horse owners are consumers - they are paying for a service.
I have never been on yard that has a livery contract so I can't comment whether that would save misunderstandings.

Can I add that I'm not unreasonable, don't think that it's all about meeeeeee and that I'm very clear about what I need on a yard - not looking for x country course, set of show jumps, indoor school, hanging baskets etc but do need turnout, no rigid opening/closing times and a non leaky stable...

Oh and if a livery is taking the pee about something could YOs please man up and deal with that person rather than taking a passive aggressive approach and punishing the whole yard for that persons wrongdoing!

Possibly more yards would become viable businesses if they were run on a pay per use basis ie lower base price for stable, water, electric and turnout and then a weekly/monthly charge for everything else from trailer parking, proper secure tack room, schools, services, bedding, hay. If you want to buy your own for the last two - you could pay for a storage space. Very different from what most of us are used to but when I looked at buying a yard a few years back I had more or less decided that was what I would do if I had gone ahead. The reasoning was that if you had a retired/pet type you wouldn't pay a fortune but peeps who wanted more could have it and hopefully the yard would have appealed to more 'types' of riders. I have to say that I never did the number crunching for the above in huge detail as the mortgage required made it impossible to proceed.
		
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well said - pay per use fab idea!


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## misst (9 July 2011)

Whilst some yards manage this I cannot see it would work as a business model - in a recession people needing to save money would cut back on horsewalker sessions, or use the school less, or become more and more DIY. If the yard had good facilities then how would it cover its costs? If you are going to invest then surely you need a measurable income to recoup costs? 

I am quite amazed at how some people (not always on here but at yards in general) believe the yard needs to be run for their benefit. It needs to provide a level of service that keeps most of the people happy most of the time, not meet every individual need for every individual quirk. Unless you are paying proper top money I think people need to compromise on something most of the time, facilities, price, type of turnot, help available etc. For me safe turnout is probably number one at the moment as I have a retired girl and an unbacked 2yo. When the baby is backed facilities and hacking will move up the priorities - so I will need to pay more.


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## Miss L Toe (9 July 2011)

Hoofit said:



			Holly and ivy "i know this is slightly off topic, but as a plea to YM or YO out there, if a person is paying the same as all the others it doesn't matter that the pony is a hairy cob etc they can still use the school even if the baby eventer wants it"

xxx J
		
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this is due entirely to selfishness on the part of the rider, nothing really to do with the Yard manager [except that you have to complain to her] I had a youngster to school over poles, I waited till the young lady who was lunging had been it the school for 30 minutes, she told someone she was nearly finished, but when she saw it was me wanted to come in [I had complained to her about pinching my hay-net], she lunged that poor horse for another twenty minutes in the corner I wanted to use for my grid work, just selfishness and self importance.


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## Miss L Toe (9 July 2011)

FreddieBoy said:



			well said - pay per use fab idea!
		
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I'd hate to be a yard manger on pay per use, you 'd have people using facilites and "forgetting" to record use, then at the end of the month you have to spend two days working out costs, send out an invoice then sit back and wait for complaints, then have to check payment of every horse, what a nightmare.
Pay per use if it is a solarium but even then the slot machine is about £300 on its own.
The yard manger has to have a regular income to ensure he has enough to cover outgoings as they occur, this would lead to all sorts of problems.
some yards have DIY and part livery and full livery, is this not enough?


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## ILuvCowparsely (9 July 2011)

Well at the end of the day. U sign contract once u happy. With what your getting.  If u don't like it leave.


Running a yard. Is costly. Keeping.  Up maintenance.   We don't make as much as we spend



16000. On resurfacing indoor school


2000 on outdoor
9000. On concreting Yard
6000 on re roofing a stable block
2000 on rubber mats
100stable mirrors

And if liveries not happy they know where door is

Running a yard is a labour of love.  Not    a money making   &#57652;venture&#57359;&#58167;&#58401;


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## Miss L Toe (9 July 2011)

cbmcts said:



			No, that yard was viable except that I wasn't in the position to invest the capital due to the economic climate at that time - restrictions on commercial mortages and all that! ...
		
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Believe me if you have a good business idea that is guarantees a good return on capital invested and you are seen as a good investment you will be able to get the money, even Lord Sugar borrows money, and he has plenty in his savings account!


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## ILuvCowparsely (9 July 2011)

Well we tell liveries. What we do. What they get. What extras we have if they require them.  When u view a yard. You should go there with a check list of questions.   U want to ask.  Then if u happy.  U go there.


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## Miss L Toe (9 July 2011)

That is fine if there is integrity, we had a livery meeting one thing was made clear, extra shavings would only be made available, for cash on a Sunday from 2 to 4, fair enough, first child that asked was told, "I am too busy just now" [ I know because I happened to be passing], I asked for shavings on Monday and got them!


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## Miss L Toe (9 July 2011)

diamond_light said:



			Well at the end of the day. U sign contract once u happy. With what your getting.  If u don't like it leave.


Running a yard. Is costly. Keeping.  Up maintenance.   We don't make as much as we spend
&#57359;&#58167;&#58401;
		
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Well why do you do it, you are en route to bankrupcy, best get rid of your customers  while you are still afloat.
I had to sign contract within a day or so of arriving, so I could not see what I was getting other than the stable and other obvious facilities, I assumed that they would be maintained on a regular basis, ie once a year or ongoing as required. The contract covered what I was expected to do not what the yard would do[or in this case not do]!


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## FRESHMAN (10 July 2011)

I really can not see how the OP is going to survive. It's ok to say me & mum run yard & dad does maintenance. So do they take a wage or are they subsidising peoples horses? IMHO a 24 box yard if full could not function correctly with only 2 people. That would be 12 horses per day each, 7 days a week. Does no one ever feel ill or get sick? OP also adds she does some excersising & teaching on top of the rest of her jobs. I would like to ask a very straight question. Is your yard legit? Ie paying business rates correct insurance etc? In the NW rates are £200 per box. £12 M2 for Indoor. £6 M2 outdoor. Tack/ feed/storage £7 M2 & so on. My business RV is £22000.00 per annum & that takes some covering. Every livery is treated the same, all potential customers are told up front I do not promise winter turn out as land here is mainly clay. All P & R paddocks are for max 2 horses, which has saved £'s in vet bills due to injury. On that basis it is not as simple of a few large fields with a herd in each with another couple of fields resting. A brochure is given & a contract signed. Everyone knows exactly what they get & exactly what it costs. Fortunately I have a great bunch of people on the yard & I always promise that if they have a problem speak to me, then we find a solution. It may not be everyones cup of tea, but how I set up my yard works for the people that join us & generally stay.


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## cbmcts (10 July 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			I'd hate to be a yard manger on pay per use, you 'd have people using facilites and "forgetting" to record use, then at the end of the month you have to spend two days working out costs, send out an invoice then sit back and wait for complaints, then have to check payment of every horse, what a nightmare.
Pay per use if it is a solarium but even then the slot machine is about £300 on its own.
The yard manger has to have a regular income to ensure he has enough to cover outgoings as they occur, this would lead to all sorts of problems.
some yards have DIY and part livery and full livery, is this not enough?
		
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Not difficult, you just have to treat your yard like a proper job and set your systems to manage these things in advance and do your books on a daily basis rather than leave it to month end when it becomes a herculean effort.
BTW,clients 'forgetting' to record use is no different to theft and should be treated as such. CCTV cameras do keep people honest plus are a vital security measure and it's not like the systems are that expensive and as  capital expenditure they are tax deductable.

Your base income would be the standard livery charge and running a yard in this way would surely increase the amount of potential clients ie if you bought a youngster you would have the facilities available when you wanted to back them and at the other end of the scale you could retire your horse to grass at the same place as you keep your riding horse.



diamond_light said:



			Well at the end of the day. U sign contract once u happy. With what your getting.  If u don't like it leave.


Running a yard. Is costly. Keeping.  Up maintenance.   *We don't make as much as we spend*

And if liveries not happy they know where door is

Running a yard is a labour of love.  Not    a money making   &#57652;venture&#57359;&#58167;&#58401;
		
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 Do you think the bolded bit is why you are so uncompromising? I think that I'd be a bit peed off too if I was working at a loss!



MrsD123 said:



			Believe me if you have a good business idea that is guarantees a good return on capital invested and you are seen as a good investment you will be able to get the money, even Lord Sugar borrows money, and he has plenty in his savings account!
		
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Lord Sugar wouldn't be my personal business hero I'm afraid  Rude, inflexible and been bankrupt more than once!
I could have borrowed if I had wished too but at rates that I didn't like and also, as I said before there were other reasons I didn't go ahead. Interestingly, I still visit this yard quite often and talk to the new owners (they are not aware that I had sight of the books before they bought, they only made an offer a few months after I had pulled out) and they are struggling due to their lack of business experience IMO. There is so much potential that they are not exploiting and their cash flow is a problem because they are not managing their bills properly (again IMO) as the annual insurance bill was a shock to them ...so they raised the livery by 25% with ONE weeks notice and lost 20% of their liveries. Not very professional, is it?

FWIW, I think FRESHMAN has the right ideas - everything up front, realistic and professional and while I agree you will never get rich running a livery yard you should be able to make a living wage and have the property to sell to provide your pension when the time comes...


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## Flashpaddler (10 July 2011)

In our area, we have a practical choice of just a single, DIY, yard.  It has a very good outdoor arena but little else. The worst thing about it is some of the clients - they treat the yard as their own private domain and use atrocious language and are intimidating to anyone not part of their social grouping- subsequently there's very few children or families down there, the atmosphere just isn't conducive.  I'd love to have our boys on part livery as the morning trips mean a very early start - I'd happily pay more but it's simply not an option.  I'm sure if our yard sorted out the "behavioural" issues and invested in some new show and xc jumps it would thrive. A huge arena that only has a couple of jumps that are falling apart makes a very poor first impression on potential clients.  Also, a lot of clients have left recently and I'm worried the yard may no longer be viable, despite having a local monopoly.  We privately rented some stables & paddocks a while back, but without the arena we struggled to keep our boys competition fit as the ground just wasn't up to it.


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## Holly Hocks (10 July 2011)

Just wanted to say Good Luck to Hoofit - your yard sounds fabulous and I'm sure once you get a couple of clients, many more will come running.  You just have to get yourself a name and you'll be flying.


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## FRESHMAN (10 July 2011)

Yep flying into the not making any profit ledger. I would really like a straight answer regarding is it a. Legit yard paying all the necessary dues or just another that is dodging all the costs that other yards have to pay? People want improvements but until we are on a level playing field it just wont happen. I await the answer to my question,


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## FRESHMAN (11 July 2011)

Well waited for the answer for a 2nd time, obviously not forthcoming therefore can only assume (& apologies if I am wrong) but I do believe this is yet another yard, complaining about business but perhaps not on a legal parr with others. I simply ask what chance have legit yards got in the market place if others that are not complying are having problems!


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## Hoofit (12 July 2011)

Sorry for the late replay  I have not been on, i have been a busy bee.

I can assure you my yard is totally legit we are about to apply for BHS approval . I find you comments very negative. Please don't worry about my yard being above board.
I have found that there are always people looking to nock you down but this makes me strive more  
I wish you every success with your yard and i hope that mine will be successful aswell  

thank you holly hocks it is poeple like you who make it all worth while

XXX J


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## FRESHMAN (12 July 2011)

My apologies if you feel I was being negative towards you, that was not my intention. I was just so surprised that anyone can have a brand new purpose built yard & offer so much for such a small amount of money in return. If you say you can do it though good luck to you.


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## scotia2k7 (12 July 2011)

Id like to say that Ive been exceptionally lucky in the livery yards Ive kept horses, having been a yard manager previously, (HMAF & civvy yards) I appreciate the cots & effort to maintain facilities in addition to ensuring every client feels that "their" horse is "your" priority.  Its not an easy task balancing both the business & emotive side with people you wouldnt necessarily invite to your dinner parties  

My current yard is utterly brilliant, the facilities are super, the place is clean, well maintained, the owners are experienced, friendly, open & approachable - & other liveries are friendly, there is a super atmosphere.  They "took me in" last winter when it became clear my current (it was a temporary yard admittedly) wouldnt be suitable over winter (mud was chronic & even with my own fencing installed I couldnt stop a 2yo shetland filly nipping into my 2yo colts field) lovely people, but no-one on site & would have been a nightmare to get to when the snow arrived.  

Yes, the previous place was £15 per horse cheaper per week - but, no proper school, mud soup for fields, no owners on site, dodgy wiring & fencing etc & with a 20yr & a rising 3yr it was impractical - additionally my own health was poor & I was having to ask (& feel guilty about) someone to feed & turn out for me (Id do the same in return but thats not really the point) it was a DIY yard & I had become a "could you possibly...." perhaps twice a week - not fair on the others.

So, I moved to a yard closer to home, who offered assisted livery & whilst I dont use it fully (only for feeding in the morning & occasional throw 'em out) the difference in how I feel is chalk & cheese.  As an owner I need peace of mind, honesty & somewhere friendly to enjoy my horses - & current yard has surpassed all expectations (been there since last December & I 'aint moving!)

I have side by side stables away from the main barn (my boy is still entire & even that didnt phase them), the horses are over the fence from each other, the fields are amazing, well drained, owners even laid hardcore up to all fields & fence standing, super outdoor school with proper lighting - a really well thought out professional yard.  

Do I grudge the £30 per week more?...Not a blinkin' chance!!!

I hope Im a good livery client - Im clean, tidy, pay when the bill comes out (am self employed & the owner understands this, I never feel naughty for being a day or two late & in fact recently paid two months up front) this flexibility is wholly appreciated & I know how lucky I am & never fail to make sure I say "thank you".

I was also amazed at how little was charged for assisted livery & just how much the owner does, especially in winter - morning feed, rug change, turn out, bring in, rug change, night haynet in & feed for £40 per week, 7 days.  

Its true that you get what you  pay for, in some cases you get something money cant buy - the joy you keep horses for, because they are happy, you are happy & that's the bottom buck,

Thank you to my livery yard, if you read the HH forums & spot this - you guys really made a difference to my gang


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## FRESHMAN (12 July 2011)

WOW what a lovely post, & so very nice to hear. Well done the YO's & well done to the poster for being so grateful to them for the care shown. It makes such a lovely change to read such a positive post.


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## ILuvCowparsely (12 July 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			Well why do you do it, you are en route to bankrupcy, best get rid of your customers  while you are still afloat.
I had to sign contract within a day or so of arriving, so I could not see what I was getting other than the stable and other obvious facilities, I assumed that they would be maintained on a regular basis, ie once a year or ongoing as required. The contract covered what I was expected to do not what the yard would do[or in this case not do]!
		
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 i tell visitors what we do routine what they get everything,, so keep it all in open all my liveries and i go out for a meal once a year    its a great way of 


seeing them away from the yard in a relaxed atmosphere

 nah wont go bankrupted   got rich hubby who owns the place so plenty backing .


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## Horsey_dreams (17 July 2011)

I think most people appreciate what it costs to run a yard, however not all YO's are caring, hardworking horse people. We have huge issues with ours to the extend we half run the place ourselves and take care of his horses because he wont do it. Sure we could leave, but we like the people and the location is amazing. He has a duty of care to his liveries, but is lazy and runs the place like a hobby, and we will moan about the service we receive for our hard earned money when we see him with one of his new toys or on another holiday.


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## alfiesmum (17 July 2011)

hoofit,  i can confirm that your business is above board! and  i also remember when it was a pipe dream just a few years ago. i went out to the pig farm as it used to be known to check it out myself after a conversation withyour father regarding construction (used to work for a local company), anyways i know its all up and running and i am sure that you will make a success of it. I used to work on a full livery yard locally (there are only around 3 now that i am aware of?) and the price was 70 per week that was only about 6 years ago but prices here are quite reasonable its just that they are few and far between with huge waiting lists on most of them x 
anyways good luck again hoofit xx


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## hollyandivy123 (19 July 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			this is due entirely to selfishness on the part of the rider, nothing really to do with the Yard manager [except that you have to complain to her] I had a youngster to school over poles, I waited till the young lady who was lunging had been it the school for 30 minutes, she told someone she was nearly finished, but when she saw it was me wanted to come in [I had complained to her about pinching my hay-net], she lunged that poor horse for another twenty minutes in the corner I wanted to use for my grid work, just selfishness and self importance.
		
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no trust me i have been at yards when  people have been removed from the school by the yo so someone else can use it, when challanged the original user was told the other person horse needed more work or was more important than them. it is up to the yo to ensure that all liveries have equal access to the facilties and no one has more rights than the others, if someone is pushing their weight around, then this is not fair on the others.

everyone is equally important


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## stacey_lou (19 July 2011)

trundle said:



			But being a business, they should be run in a professional manner. If Yard Owners cannot provide facilities and maintain them in an acceptable state, then they should stop advertising that they have those facilities, and price themselves accordingly. 

I don't think many people are silly enough to expect five-star full livery at DIY grass livery prices, and if they are, they have only themselves to blame. However, if you are paying several hundred pounds a month for livery, on a yard where you expect decent services and facilities, it is reasonable to be aggrieved if you are not getting those services and facilities.
		
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I agree, I moved from one yard which was 2 miles from my house to my new one which is 20miles from my house beacuse where I was before I was paying around £400 a month with my turn outs which I had to have beacuse of work commitments, feed, haylage, bedding and stable rent ect for a stable that flooded sometimes in the winter a school which was so deep you couldnt ride in it if it was too dry or too wet beacuse it flooded and a tack room which was only secure with one padlock and no loo.

I am now at a yard with 2 lovely schools, a lunge arena, communial room with 3 loos a shower and kitchen and heating, heated and coded tack room, heated rug room and CCTV on the yard and miles of xc schooling and morning turn out, feed and bedding all included for less that £300 a month its incredible what you can get if you shop around and I wouldnt even mind paying as much as I did before beacuse of the 5* facilities 

It pure luxuary for me


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## chestnut cob (19 July 2011)

IME of livery yards, problems usually occur (and I don't necessarily mean *my* problems, just probs generally) because of poor customer service.  

Personally I want the livery prices to reflect the quality of the yard and services.  I am happy to pay for good facilities - I would expect to pay more for a yard with a decent arena that is well maintained and wouldn't expect to pay so much for a yard with say a 20x40m arena with a crap surface that is bog for half of the year and a dustbowl for the other half.  I also expect to pay more for yards where the fields and fencing are maintained properly.

I've moved around a fair bit with work and have been on a few yards.  What I've usually seen is that YOs start out with grand plans and can't do enough for you but after a couple of years, I guess they realise how much it truly costs to run a yard and the service goes down.  If I the yard service has been excellent and gradually becomes bad but the price doesn't change (or it goes up, which I have experienced), I would rather that the YO actually explained to liveries that it is because things are more expensive (electricity, feed, bedding, water if you're on a meter etc).  Problems usually occur because YOs realise how much running a yard costs, they start doing less and less for the often-increasing amount they charge and begin to resent the liveries because they are having to do more work to make their money.  In turn, liveries resent the YO for putting up prices while the quality of service reduces so you end up with everyone moaning.

Yes people need to realise how much it costs to run a yard but at the same time, there are a lot of YOs out there who need to remember liveries are their *customers*.  It is the hard earned cash of the liveries who make it possible for the yard to keep the lights on.  I see how some YOs behave and think that if I treated my customers that way, I wouldn't have any left...


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## ELFSBELLS (19 July 2011)

chestnut cob said:



			IME of livery yards, problems usually occur (and I don't necessarily mean *my* problems, just probs generally) because of poor customer service.  

Personally I want the livery prices to reflect the quality of the yard and services.  I am happy to pay for good facilities - I would expect to pay more for a yard with a decent arena that is well maintained and wouldn't expect to pay so much for a yard with say a 20x40m arena with a crap surface that is bog for half of the year and a dustbowl for the other half.  I also expect to pay more for yards where the fields and fencing are maintained properly.

I've moved around a fair bit with work and have been on a few yards.  What I've usually seen is that YOs start out with grand plans and can't do enough for you but after a couple of years, I guess they realise how much it truly costs to run a yard and the service goes down.  If I the yard service has been excellent and gradually becomes bad but the price doesn't change (or it goes up, which I have experienced), I would rather that the YO actually explained to liveries that it is because things are more expensive (electricity, feed, bedding, water if you're on a meter etc).  Problems usually occur because YOs realise how much running a yard costs, they start doing less and less for the often-increasing amount they charge and begin to resent the liveries because they are having to do more work to make their money.  In turn, liveries resent the YO for putting up prices while the quality of service reduces so you end up with everyone moaning.

Yes people need to realise how much it costs to run a yard but at the same time, there are a lot of YOs out there who need to remember liveries are their *customers*.  It is the hard earned cash of the liveries who make it possible for the yard to keep the lights on.  I see how some YOs behave and think that if I treated my customers that way, I wouldn't have any left...
		
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This, in a nutshell!!!


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## PolarSkye (19 July 2011)

Well, here's a short precis of why we are moving  . . . 

I definitely expect (whatever the cost) livery staff/YO to actually give a damn! I currently pay an average of £400/month for DIY/assisted livery and for that we get:

- good hacking (although there is some roadwork to get there and an additional associated cost for using the forestry land)
- 20 x 40 outdoor school, excellent all-weather surface and mirrors - it is lit but badly - lights cost £1/hour
- round pen/lunging arena
- summer jumping field (full set of jumps and bank)
- summer dressage arena
- post and rail fencing (with electrics)
- good grazing (I'm having to restrict my boy's turnout) but tracks to winter fields are incredibly poached in winter
- brick built stables with automatic waterers
- wash down area (cold water only)
- locked/alarmed tack room with seating area, kettle, microwave, sink
- on-site toilet/changing area
- four kinds of bedding (flax, rapasorb, excel and straw - varying from £4.00/bale to £9.00/bale)
- hay (currently £5.00/bale - going up to £7.00/bale)
- extras (bring in/turn out/rug/boots/muck and skip out/prep and give feed/hold for farrier and vet) vary in cost but my EA (extra assistance) bill is generally no less than £100/month and that's them only doing one end of the day, 5 days/week
- I also pay my trainer to school him three days a week - and she mucks him out for me on a Monday 

Pretty good facilities, right?  What we don't have is consistency in staff - my boy is a pig in his box and I find that some people just do a really poor job of mucking him out while others do it well (which ends up costing me more for bedding) - and there is sometimes a distinct lack of "care." A few examples:

- In all the snow and ice, NONE of the hard standing on main yard was cleared to make it safe for the horses to go out - even just to the round pen or the school so the horses could have a mooch while we mucked out.  Yard/hard standing by YO's horses was cleared - rest of yard was not - and when we proposed putting down dirty bedding to make safe walkways that was actively discouraged.  Also, we were not allowed to put salt down, resulting in dangerous surfaces for humans as well as horses.  The result?  A horse (admittedly old and infirm) slipped and fell on the ice, couldn't get up and had to be PTS.

- My horse has just started going out again after four weeks' box rest (received nasty kick in the field). He can be a little stressy and has apparently been hooning around - no'one at yard (staff/management) bothered to let me know. One particular morning he was really working himself into a lather (literally - he was sweating/steaming) so two liveries went to YM to let her know. Despite him being in the book to be brought in anyway - and knowing that we've been being very careful with him b/c of the suspected fracture - her response was "well, I'm not working right now - I'm going out for a hack - why don't you leave him and see what he does!" She then left the yard (for a hack on her own horse) for AN HOUR. The liveries caught him and brought him in, removed his boots, hosed his legs, put a thermatex on him and tucked him up in his box. I only found out about this two days later when I next went up to the yard (I work during the week) and one of the two liveries let me know. I would have expected/hoped that the YM would have texted me just to let me know he had been being silly.  Thing is, these liveries took care of him b/c they are kind people - but I'm not paying them to care for my horse - I pay the YM!

- On Saturday I found a two-foot-long, rusted length of metal pipe (possibly from a gate) with VERY sharp ends protruding about four inches out of a haynet the yard had filled some time on Friday. I get that odd things turn up in hay - and I get that YO isn't responsible - but when I told her about it/showed it to her so that she could warn the liveries to be vigilant about checking their hay she was extremely defensive and dismissive - to the point of being rude.

- When a fellow livery had to have her beloved mare PTS after a long illness, YO asked that she settle up her final acount. The balance? 50p.

We're moving to a new yard a week on Saturday. He'll be on full livery. Huge brick-built stables, straw, hay/haylage, hard feed, feet picked out, mucked a.m. and skipped out p.m., rugged/booted/bandaged as required, rugs changed as weather requires - even in field, turned out/brought in, farrier/vet/dentist/physio all arranged and attended for, manes/tails pulled, clipping done, tack cleaned weekly, covered/lit wash down area (hot and cold water - shampoo/towels/sweat scraper provided), huuuuuuuge outdoor school, covered lunge arena, canter track, solarium, cross country course, jumping paddock and dressage arena in summer, 50+ private acres to hack on - all included. The only extras are shoes, vet, dentist, supplements and schooling (by my trainer - who will also be caring for him) . . . and when I add everything up it's the same as I'm currently spending. 

Honestly, what owners want is to feel a) that they're getting value for money; and b) that YOs (and the folks caring for our horses) care. We get that it's a business . . . but we have our horses on assisted/part or full livery because we can't do it all for ourselves - and we want to be able to trust the people taking care of our horses.

P


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## Tinkerbee (20 July 2011)

You could set up your own yard and see if you can do it cheaper.


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## keepmeinmind (20 July 2011)

Omi49 said:



			Am I the only one who is fed up with keep paying out and not receiving much for my money and the feeling that they have you over a barrel.
Some of us are actually good clients to have, tidy, pay ontime etc but still that isn't enough for some yard owners.. 
Fed up in Bramshill!
		
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I'm on a large yard in Surrey.  The yard owner is a bit laid back and most of the staff are inefficient.  We have a really nice school but with a terrible surface and the yard owner has been asked if she is willing to make improvements with it but she has been non comittal up to date.  The yard itself is in a brilliant location and close to 3 really good event centres.  But the extras that we have to pay such as turning out/bringing in and having to pay an extortionate amount of money for trailer spacing makes it very expensive, particuarlly if you are on DIY which I was for a short time with my mare.


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## Cazza525 (20 July 2011)

Horsesforever1 said:



			I have my own place and absolutely refuse to do liveries. I used to but its not worth it. Nobody wants to pay a true cost,think I was running it for fun and not profit and didnt realise the cost of new fencing,repairs insurance etc etc. Then there was the non payers,thouse who wouldnt feed their horses enough hay ,skimpy dirty beds, especially around Christmas time,but all going out partying and buying presents. I just gave up and made them all go away. I enjoy my free space and time with my own horses now. Much better.
		
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Totally with you on this. I stopped doing liveries too...hassle no end. I found that people expected something for nothing. Much easier without.


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## Omi49 (27 July 2011)

oh Lord, have just read through all the replies, to the lady in scotland I wish you all the best and your yard sounds lovely.
To the lady (I presume) whos moving a week saturday, I'm sure you and your horse will be much happier.
I am currently looking for another yard as is a lot of the other liveries at the yard, most of us get the feeling the YO is not interested in the yard anymore just the cash, which is such a shame. 
Has anyone thought of setting up a business in training YO's in customer service!!!


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## Hoofit (29 July 2011)

OMI 49 - I think that is a great idea  im hoping that my time working in customer service for a glazing company and also working with brides in the bridal shop i work at will stand me in good stead . Brides right before there wedding can be very stressed so i hope that i have learned alot from them regarding giving good customer service. I find 1...2....3....4....5...and breath  a good thing before i respond to some requests i get from brides hopfully this will carry over well for my livery customers    ps send any livery's my way if you can 

xxxx J


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## Honey08 (29 July 2011)

Cazza525 said:



			Totally with you on this. I stopped doing liveries too...hassle no end. I found that people expected something for nothing. Much easier without.
		
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Sadly I agree too.  We now have several empty stables, but peace and quiet and no worries!  Occasionally I think about it when someone I know asks if we would consider having them, but my husband goes mad - "Please don't do that to us again...!"


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## Wundahorse (29 July 2011)

Sadly we have the horses and need the land,while yard owners have the land and often use our needs as an advantage.Some yards are ok but the usual cliques and politics can affect the smooth running of things.Also not all yards have consistant rules for all.I have no issues with well run yards and realise YO's have to make a living otherwise it's pointless running a yard.Often it's the liveries who tend to create problems.


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## Miss L Toe (31 July 2011)

The yard I am at now is apparently run on a rather casual basis, and as I am used to tidy and neat etc, it is a bit of a culture shock, but the YO can't do enough for us, and the horses are his priority, I had to leave my boy totally in his care [due to an accident], even though I am DIY, and have had no worries. I text any q's to him and get an immediate response.
I don't think it would work on a very large yard, but it works in this one.


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## lachlanandmarcus (3 August 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			The yard I am at now is apparently run on a rather casual basis, and as I am used to tidy and neat etc, it is a bit of a culture shock, but the YO can't do enough for us, and the horses are his priority, I had to leave my boy totally in his care [due to an accident], even though I am DIY, and have had no worries. I text any q's to him and get an immediate response.
I don't think it would work on a very large yard, but it works in this one.
		
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That's really the key. I used to pay over £1000 pm for 2 horses for 5 day part livery+extra services. The yard had OK facilities but there were much more glam and shiny places locally. While I occasionally didnt see eye to eye with the YO in the 8 years we were there, thats inevitable and what I did always know was that even where we disagreed, her viewpoint was based on what she believed was in the best interests of my horses, and also that she cared for them exactly as though they were her own. 

To me, working full time, that meant more than whether it was good value or things were maintained properly or whatever. 

That alone was my criterion in judging the yard.

Now I have only myself to argue with as the horses are at home!(we moved to Scotland!)


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## Jatsar Equestrian (3 August 2011)

Hi so how much do you guys pay on average to keep one horse at a yard for a week? In New Zealand I guess we are lucky to be able to graze outside most of the year.

M


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## gingerninja11 (3 August 2011)

Tinkerbee said:



			You could set up your own yard and see if you can do it cheaper. 

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I don't think its about having cheap care, we all want value for money and to get what we are paying for. 
I bet none of us would put up with shoddy service and food in a restaurant, yet many people seem to put up with schools that can't be used for half a year (me included), broken fencing or inconsistent care for our horsey babies. 
I am friends with people who own yards, I do appreciate the costs involved and that its a 24/7 job but if I am paying the YO to feed and turn out my horse I expect it to be done - in the same why my employers expect me to turn up and do my job!


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## blackislegirl (4 August 2011)

Last year I had to move my horses because the yard I'd happily been at for 20 years was closing down. For family reasons I needed to be in a certain area, so moved to a small completely DIY yard in beautiful countryside, part of an old farm with a big period farmhouse house. There are nice stables,  lovely hacking and very few rules,  but no arena and absolutely no assistance. The other livery owner is great, and she and I have kept the yard clean and tidy, poo-picked rigorously, looked after our horses very well, and always paid on time, by bank standing order. The charges are top-end for DIY in this area.

However, we are both leaving this month. The set-up has become a nightmare, for a whole clutch of reasons already mentioned in this thread. There is no plan of maintenance for pastures or fencing. So small fence problems quickly become big fence problems. There is no harrowing, rolling, topping or re-seeding. There is some spraying by a commercial company, but the results seem patchy. Ragwort is a major issue, and it is not being dealt with adequately. There is no system for dealing with the muck heap.  Our only area of hard standing has been taken over by a huge pile of rubbish (cardboard boxes for electrical appliances etc)

The owner is a wealthy businessman who does no work on the property himself, and seems not to notice or care what's going on with his infrastructure.

As for customer service, there is none. I asked the owner if he'd like to chat through my experiences as a customer on his livery yard and his response was 'I am not a livery yard owner.' He then gave me notice to quit. He says things like 'Horses are not my priority.'  and 'If you pay for Easyjet you can't expect Club Class service.' He seems not to understand that Easyjet succeeds by doing the basics well, something he has largely failed to do. 

I conclude that all the owner was ever interested in was our monthly rent, and maybe some fantasy of being able to look at horses grazing on his land. He is not imho either competent or capable of being able to run a yard, whether as a hobby or a real business.  So I've put it down to experience and cannot wait to be at the new yard, which is run as a tight ship on professional lines by hard-working people who really love horses.


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## marmalade76 (4 August 2011)

Jatsar Equestrian said:



			Hi so how much do you guys pay on average to keep one horse at a yard for a week? In New Zealand I guess we are lucky to be able to graze outside most of the year.

M
		
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Mine graze outside all year, every year! Not all owners would want this, though, and many livery yards do not have enough ground to provide unlimited turn out.


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## Jatsar Equestrian (4 August 2011)

Cool that is good to hear.
I have stables, wash bay, sand yards, concrete tie up area, tack room, feed room, grass dressage arena and show jumping area (summer) with a sand arena 5min walk up the road, good road riding and the forest and beach are 15min drive away.

I live on site and also have a breeding business.

My agisting people pay $37NZ per week which I am assuming is inexpensive compared to the UK?????

M


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## marmalade76 (4 August 2011)

I've no idea how prices would compare between here and NZ, but you are lucky in that there's much fewer people there so more ground to go round!

I do think there are lots of livery clients out there who expect an awful lot for very little money and I have started threads about that before. There are, however, some greedy YOs out there. IMO, these are the ones who cram as many horses as they can on little acreage, they don't care about the state of their fields or worm burdens or that horses may get injured through fighting 'cause there's too many in a small space. A fried of mine was on such a yard - she moved her horses when they had a dangerously high worm count just AFTER she'd wormed them! 

I am lucky, I get mate's rates on a farm where there is plenty of grazing to go round, fields are rested so are never horse sick and I don't have to share a field with anyone unless I choose to.


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## Jatsar Equestrian (4 August 2011)

It equates to about $18Uk per week but the horses graze outside and I dont look after them as such all are DIY.
But still a good price compared to in the UK.
M


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## marmalade76 (4 August 2011)

Jatsar Equestrian said:



			It equates to about $18Uk per week but the horses graze outside and I dont look after them as such all are DIY.
But still a good price compared to in the UK.
M
		
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That is good value, but still more than I pay for two!


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## Jatsar Equestrian (4 August 2011)

lol!!!! if there are no facilities just a paddock and water it is around $12.00 I just spoke to someone who pays full livery and it is $125UK a week - my goodness thats over $250.00NZ lots of money!!!!

M


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## lachlanandmarcus (5 August 2011)

Im not sure it is really that relevant comparing UK with NZ, we are an overcrowded island and land costs are huge, as is the regulation and costs of proper livery yards (eg £10,000s in business rates, £300 odd to remove the muck heap). All of that is reflected in the livery prices, and is inescapable. 

The main justified complaints in UK are not about costs as such (or shouldnt be, since I havent met many millionaire YOs) but where a paid for service isnt delivered or where standards start off well but then slip over time. 

Shortcomings in maintenance are often the result of the fact that all those things cost an awful lot of money, probably not covered by the livery fees sufficiently, and while it would be better if YOs were more accurate in reflecting the costs in the livery charges so those things did happen, in many cases they would price themselves out of the market for clients if they did so. Tricky one.


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## Miss L Toe (5 August 2011)

I'm not too sure about maintenance costs. I asked the "estate manager" to nail a rail that had come off, he said "I have to get clearance" so I did it myself, lazy b***********


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## Jatsar Equestrian (5 August 2011)

Yes for the initial concern there is no benefit in comparing UK to NZ but for me living in NZ it gives me an appreciation as to what your costs are 

We are very lucky to have mainly mild winters and lots of grazing land.

I agree that if I paid a higher price for top facilities I would expect the grounds to be kept perfect and a maintenance program to be in place.

Thanks
M


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## Olliecp77 (6 August 2011)

cbmcts said:



			I think that a lot of the problems on yards are because they are not run or presented professionally. 

You go and see a new yard and you're told that this is available, that isn't a problem and that certain facilities (all year turnout anybody?) are a given. You can do a certain amount of research but that isn't infallible so you have to take the YOs word to an extent. Most of the time the YOs don't intend to lie but when they have empty stables they want to fill them. Then after you have spent time, money and stress moving you discover that there are caveats so resentment sets in. 

Remember that moving a horse isn't as easy as deciding to shop in a different supermarket but horse owners are consumers - they are paying for a service.
I have never been on yard that has a livery contract so I can't comment whether that would save misunderstandings.

Can I add that I'm not unreasonable, don't think that it's all about meeeeeee and that I'm very clear about what I need on a yard - not looking for x country course, set of show jumps, indoor school, hanging baskets etc but do need turnout, no rigid opening/closing times and a non leaky stable...

Oh and if a livery is taking the pee about something could YOs please man up and deal with that person rather than taking a passive aggressive approach and punishing the whole yard for that persons wrongdoing!

Possibly more yards would become viable businesses if they were run on a pay per use basis ie lower base price for stable, water, electric and turnout and then a weekly/monthly charge for everything else from trailer parking, proper secure tack room, schools, services, bedding, hay. If you want to buy your own for the last two - you could pay for a storage space. Very different from what most of us are used to but when I looked at buying a yard a few years back I had more or less decided that was what I would do if I had gone ahead. The reasoning was that if you had a retired/pet type you wouldn't pay a fortune but peeps who wanted more could have it and hopefully the yard would have appealed to more 'types' of riders. I have to say that I never did the number crunching for the above in huge detail as the mortgage required made it impossible to proceed.
		
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Perfectly put.


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## FRESHMAN (6 August 2011)

The last sentence just about sums it up then doesnt it. "The mortgage required made it impossible to proceed" YO's also have to pay a mortgage, & even if for whatever reason the property is paid for it still has to earn an amount to be serviceable to it's value. I believe a contract is necessary, & do not allow anyone on my yard without them reading the brochure & signing a contract stating they have read & understood the terms & conditions. The fact is you can not please everyone all of the time. I set up the type of yard that I wanted, mainly for competition horses that require 1st class facilities. If someone wants to join & be a happy hacker thatis fine, but it is not any cheaper. If all you want is a field & stable in winter then find a yard that supplies only that facility& charges accordingly.


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## cbmcts (7 August 2011)

gingerninja11 said:



			I don't think its about having cheap care, we all want value for money and to get what we are paying for. 
I bet none of us would put up with shoddy service and food in a restaurant, yet many people seem to put up with schools that can't be used for half a year (me included), broken fencing or inconsistent care for our horsey babies. 
I am friends with people who own yards, I do appreciate the costs involved and that its a 24/7 job but if I am paying the YO to feed and turn out my horse I expect it to be done - in the same why my employers expect me to turn up and do my job!
		
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^^^^ This  Very few people mind paying for a service (yes, I know there a few who expect all for nowt but they are a minority) but nobody likes feeling that they are being ripped off!.

Freshman

The mortgage required was a problem not because of paying it back but more because I was intending the yard to be a Ltd business in it's own right and raising funds on that basis as a new company required my partner and I to use our personal assets (homes!!) as security. Kinda ruins the point of a Ltd company doesn't it?

I do agree wholeheartedly that it is very difficult to succeed when your competitors are not on a level playing field regarding insurance etc.


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## FRESHMAN (7 August 2011)

cbmcts said:



			^^^^ This  Very few people mind paying for a service (yes, I know there a few who expect all for nowt but they are a minority) but nobody likes feeling that they are being ripped off!.

Freshman

The mortgage required was a problem not because of paying it back but more because I was intending the yard to be a Ltd business in it's own right and raising funds on that basis as a new company required my partner and I to use our personal assets (homes!!) as security. Kinda ruins the point of a Ltd company doesn't it?

I do agree wholeheartedly that it is very difficult to succeed when your competitors are not on a level playing field regarding insurance etc.
		
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On this occasion my point was regarding the financing. Whilst you may prefer your business to be a Ltd company,  in the present economic climate I can well inderstand that lenders would want some security including your personal assets (homes) otherwise it is too easy to bail out when the business doesn't go according to plan. The fact remains that whilst one would like to give such varied levels of service it is actually impossible. Can you imagine a business plan that reads: I want to provide. Arenas @ a cost of £ xxxxx Storage @ a cost of £xxxxx Tack rooms @ a cost of £xxxxxx hard standing for box/trailor parking @ a cost of £xxxx Oh & btw if I remain full with liveries wanting all of the services I will Nett £2000.00 per month, whereas if I am full with no one wanting more than a field in summer & a stable in winter, (even though I have invested £200,000 in other services) I will Nett £500.00 per month. !!! Apart from the cost of monitoring who was using what, & when it just would not stack up for finance.


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## cbmcts (8 August 2011)

Maybe, maybe not Freshman

I certainly needed to do a lot more number crunching but there were various pros and cons. This yard had an incredible amount of turnout (especially for the South East) but relatively little space on the yard itself. PP to expand the yard would difficult, if not impossible to obtain. Max of 25 stables and over 80 acres, it also had an agricultural tie so diversity was essential - grass/broodmare/retirement livery and sheep/beef cattle were going to be important income streams. There were also listed buildings that couldn't be converted to stables but as they were in good repair they also would have had to earn their keep somehow! Not your typical yard much more like a working farm in honesty so maybe not comparable to be fair.

All academic now but I still know people there and know the new YO who have contented themselves with 20 liveries and are now complaining to all and sundry about how they are going broke...but they are spending hours topping this land as most of it is unused - in the South East FGS  Land/turnout is like gold dust for 50 miles round here.


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## abina (10 August 2011)

misst said:



			I think people are unrealistic about how much things really cost. Yards are there to make a profit - no one runs one for fun. If they do not keep up maintainance and facilities then move! If the next yard is better but more expensive that proves the point - it costs money to do these things. Wages, insurance, materials, feed, services etc have all increased everywhere so why would yards be any different? If they do not make a profit they will close. 
I believe, as a client, (and a good one) that it is up to me where I spend my money and how much I spend. The yard offers a service - take it or leave it

Click to expand...

THANK-YOU - some one understands !! I have a livery yard and clients just do not appreciate the costs that I have to bear and absorb costs when services, and feed stuffs etc go up - but I can't put my prices up everytime!

And then there is the mysterious breakages that No one knows about !! 

The broken loo seat
Blocked Drain
Blocked Loo
Hosepipe split
broken catches
Broken tap
bent gate
Guttering brought down by someone's dodgy reversing.
the broken fence again by parking trailers resting on fence 
Loo Roll - what do people do with it all !! 


The extras people assume .. Grit and salt provided in large mountain size piles when icy/snow 
Water on tap 'literally' by not offering to pay a bit towards extra water used when they want to wash their cars and trailers.

School surface top up - £2000 - it has to be reaped from somewhere ! 

I am not moaning but it's nice to know a handful of people are aware of the hidden costs
we bear ! 

It's hard to make a small profit let alone a living out of livery. That's why we have add on's - shows, lessons etc - and for the record I do plough money back into maintence and invest in  improvements - mainly from my friendly bank manager and his signature on my  over draft !!


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## DragonSlayer (10 August 2011)

abina said:



			THANK-YOU - some one understands !! I have a livery yard and clients just do not appreciate the costs that I have to bear and absorb costs when services, and feed stuffs etc go up - but I can't put my prices up everytime!

And then there is the mysterious breakages that No one knows about !! 

The broken loo seat
Blocked Drain
Blocked Loo
Hosepipe split
broken catches
Broken tap
bent gate
Guttering brought down by someone's dodgy reversing.
the broken fence again by parking trailers resting on fence 
Loo Roll - what do people do with it all !! 


The extras people assume .. Grit and salt provided in large mountain size piles when icy/snow 
Water on tap 'literally' by not offering to pay a bit towards extra water used when they want to wash their cars and trailers.

School surface top up - £2000 - it has to be reaped from somewhere ! 

I am not moaning but it's nice to know a handful of people are aware of the hidden costs
we bear ! 

It's hard to make a small profit let alone a living out of livery. That's why we have add on's - shows, lessons etc - and for the record I do plough money back into maintence and invest in  improvements - mainly from my friendly bank manager and his signature on my  over draft !!
		
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^^^^LIKE^^^^


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## soulfull (13 August 2011)

what annoys me most is when basics aren't met, like adequate fencing.  I know I could move yards BUT if they would just sort out the fencing and haylage all would be great.  

I think I am reluctant to move because I once left a lovely yard after an argument over the new top up to school surface, I said it was dangerous with nails etc.  YO would not listen so I moved.  A few weeks later they found out company had delivered crushed pallets inc nails, by mistake.  So I didn't need to leave after all, I am worried the same will happen this time.


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## Horses24-7 (13 August 2011)

The way I think about it is that If I want to park my car for 3 hours in town it costs me a fiver, so to say my horse is 'parked' on someone elses land 24 hours a day 7 days a week I don't think £30 or so a week is bad value for money. 

Horses are expensive but you should also receive a good service, or at least be treated as a paying customer (vie been on a couple of yards where u are treated as an inconvenience  ) I do think that there are some bad yo that cause generalisation. I moved to a yard that was cheaper, not to save money but because the other yard was falling apart and the owner sat in the house 24/7 ignoring liveries attempts to discuss things. My new yard is fantastic and I've never been happier  being on a nice friendly yard has resparked my love of horses and my oh is happy I'm no longer coming him from the yard upset or moaning! 

Just to add nice yards are out there! It can just take time to find a balance of finances and facilities.

Good luck with the move x


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## Omi49 (14 August 2011)

I can now report that I have found a new yard and will be moving shortly. So fingers crossed we will settle into the new yard quickly, and I get my MOJO back with my riding...


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