# puppy and older dog



## paddy555 (28 October 2016)

I am looking for advice on the practicalities of how you would all deal with this situation. I have a GSD bitch pup on order. When I ordered her I had an old sheepdog aged 14 who seemed unlikely to make Xmas. She just seemed to age suddenly, stopped eating sometimes and I thought that was going to be it. No problem, she has had a long and happy life. Mention of a puppy seems to have rejuvenated her. She no longer looks likely to peg out any time soon, in fact I have never seen her so good. Which means I will have to introduce a pup into a household (2 adults) with an existing bitch something I have never done before.

The old bitch will be friendly, non aggressive and i suspect want to play a lot. She currently sleeps in the kitchen and is clean overnight. The pup was going in there as the floor can easily be cleaned. What do people do with a  pup and old dog for toilet training? If I leave them together overnight and kitchen could well be a mess as the pup makes a mess and they both then play all night in it. I also don't want the old girl to get any ideas about not being clean. Would you separate them overnight? 

My only way of doing that would be to keep the old girl in the kitchen and the pup in the bedroom having taken the mats up. The old dog doesn't take kindly to sleeping anywhere but in the kitchen. 

Would keeping the pup with the older dog just lead to them playing endlessly and wearing out the pup through lack of rest.  How have people dealt with a pup and an older dog as they move in together? any hints would be gratefully received!


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## Chiffy (28 October 2016)

Would you consider a crate?
Also if you take your pup out very late and very early, he/she should not mess indoors in the night. Best to train that it is unacceptable from the start.
I have had two or even three dogs with a new pup, but start with a crate where the pup can see the others for company.
Night time is for sleeping!


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## Clodagh (28 October 2016)

Our pups sleep in crates but with an older dog in the room for company, so your potential set up seems ideal. I would crate the pup as otherwise older bitch may be persecuted when she wants to sleep. Our pups never mess over night in their crates. As Chiffy says - night time is for sleeping is a good adage to start off with.


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## paddy555 (28 October 2016)

I haven't considered a crate as I haven't come across one before. Off to google them! Presumably they fold up in the daytime when not in use. Are there any disadvantages to them? If the pup is out late at night and out early in the morning does it then keep the bed in the crate clean as it has to lie on it? (I was expecting to get up in the night to let it out to try and get it clean asap) 
What age do you use a crate until? 
thanks


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## Chiffy (28 October 2016)

Even better if you get up in the night just at first but early and late should quickly be fine. They tend not to mess where they sleep as long as you don't expect the to last too long.
Most of my dogs have dispensed with the crate by 6 months but I have one who didn't chew but did pull the other dogs beds about so she still gets shut in at night at a year old. Pretty sure I could dispense with it but she likes it in there.
If possible you should make the crate their den where they like to sleep and rest so not that good to only produce it for nighttime.


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## Clodagh (28 October 2016)

Cayla on here does a crate training guide. We never think of ours as a jail, but as a keep safe area. Pups go to sleep in them voluntarily, and regard it as their bed, we just shut the door at night or if we are going out. Never use it as a place of punishment, think of it as a basket with a lid.


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## Llanali (28 October 2016)

They can fold away during the day, but I wouldn't. I would keep it up for the pup to use as day time rest, and so that your older girl has time to rest as well. Also, when you pop out. The pup will come to
See it as their safe place, a source of comfort. 

I stop around 12months, using it daily as it were, but I periodically put the crates up and put all of them into their own crates, to make sure none of them forget about being crated. My adult dogs are not routinely crated, but I feel it a very importantly life skill and like to ensure I can/could crate them whenever I choose. You never know when an injury, a visiting dog, - foster in my case- or a bitch in heat, might mean you need the security of a crate.


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## Chiffy (28 October 2016)

Very well put Clodagh and Llanali


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## Llanali (28 October 2016)

Oh, and I let my young young pups out at around midnight, (last feed is 11/11.30pm) and ensure they do their business, and then again at 5am. They have first breakfast in my house at 6am anyway! I feed pups four times a day until at least 14/16 weeks.


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## Llanali (28 October 2016)

Chiffy said:



			Very well put Clodagh and Llanali
		
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Thanks. It's something I didn't grow up with; my mother never used crates. But, I then inherited a pup when she was 5 months, and she promptly broke a toe at 6.5mths, requiring cage rest. It was a bit of a trauma, and I thanked my lucky stars she was so young still, and swore I would never have pups that weren't crate trained again. Similarly, when I fetched a 2 year old entire male home (i did breed him, sold him to a great home but the marriage failed and so he came back to me as per my breeding contracts), he hadn't been crated since he left me at 11 weeks, but both my bitches were in season. After a few minutes scratching he remembered the score, and they all were separate, safe and satisfied. I really, really recommend it. I would have been right up ***** creek if none of them were crate trained then! Brother sister litter mate mating anyone?!!!!


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## Thistle (28 October 2016)

Clodagh said:



			Our pups sleep in crates but with an older dog in the room for company, so your potential set up seems ideal. I would crate the pup as otherwise older bitch may be persecuted when she wants to sleep. Our pups never mess over night in their crates. As Chiffy says - night time is for sleeping is a good adage to start off with.
		
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This is what we do too.


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## Leo Walker (28 October 2016)

My big dog is only 5, and the pup is 10 weeks old. The big dog sleeps in the bed and the pup sleeps in a crate beside the bed. I honestly dont know who people managed puppies before crates! Mine sleeps in it, has quiet time in it and even eats his food in it so he doesnt bother the big dog. Its where i put him if I have to pop to the loo or out to the car etc, and its where he will go when I eventually start leaving him. It makes him feel secure and keeps him safe


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## paddy555 (28 October 2016)

thanks everyone. I have learnt a lot! I don't intend to spay her until she is a lot older so the safety part when she is in season is vey appealing. We live in an area with a lot of roaming farm dogs.


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## bonny (28 October 2016)

I've recently done just this, got a puppy when I have an old collie and I've had no problems with them at all. She mostly ignores the pup but she's probably been a good influence just being around. They sleep downstairs, wherever they want but not on the furniture! The pup never needed house training, I took him out a lot to start with and he only ever went outside. I think it's a lot easier having a puppy if you already have an older dog and they must copy them to an extent. I would never put a dog in a cage !


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## Pearlsasinger (28 October 2016)

Our 3yr old Rotties love their crate (2 joined together). They can be separated but very rarely are. The Rotties often choose to sleep in there if there is nothing on the TV that they want to watch! They consider it their bed, own space, safe place. They are not allowed on the furniture but will choose to sleep in there in preference over a sheepskin rug.


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## Clodagh (29 October 2016)

bonny said:



			I would never put a dog in a cage !
		
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You are thinking of it as a jail, or a punishment thing, it really isn't. you are lucky you don't need to leave your pup and your older dog doesn't ever need seperating from it, it is not that easy for everyone.


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## paddy555 (29 October 2016)

I have read a lot about the crates so thanks to everyone who posted about them. One site told me the pups couldn't be crated with the door shut until they were 12 weeks due to the fact they simply couldn't hold on long enough until that age and it would make toilet training worse. That site recommended a puppy playpen until that age with paper etc so the pup could mess if it needed. The other downside I saw was the training required. Couldn't just bring it home, put it in the crate, shut the door and problem solved. It needed slow and careful introduction which seemed very sensible. 

It almost seemed like it was going to be quite a timely process (several weeks) to teach it to crate and shut the door whereas the problem really is immediately she comes home for the first few weeks until she can be taught to crate. ATM the bedroom is pretty appealing. It is right next to the back door, won't disturb the other dog and I can crawl out of bed at 2am, grab puplet and hit the back garden all whilst hopefully still asleep!! 

The information I have come across with reading about crates has been most useful. My present bitch was spayed immediately she was old enough as advised by the vets. I am now a bit upset I probably didn't do the best for her with that. One site I found recommended not spaying (after a few seasons) where both the ovaries and uterus are removed but hysterectomy where the ovaries are left and thus oestrogen, progesterone and testosterone. It the cervix is also removed it reduces the pyometra risk and also seasonal bleeding. That seems more sensible but I wonder if vets do that as routine. How could one be sure the vet did as asked rather than the full spay.


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## Leo Walker (29 October 2016)

Mine was in his crate overnight from the beginning. He did cry for a few minutes the first night but then settled down and went to sleep. We have another crate in the front room. Thats the one he goes in when he eats or I leave the room etc. I have spent time slowly training him to use that one, as its different sleeping in one next to my bed with me in it, and being left all alone. But I havent put a lot of effort in and it could have been done in a day or so.

The worst thing you can do is make a pen and put paper down! Your just training them to wee on paper, then you need to train them again to go outside. At 10 weeks mine needs to go out every couple of hours in the daytime, and has just started sleeping from midnight to 6am. I had been getting up at 4am to let him out, and the first week I got up at 2.30am and 4.30am as he didnt have enough bladder control to make it longer than that. Hes only crated for a few minutes at a time during the day so its not an issue.


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## TGM (29 October 2016)

We are in a fairly similar position, having just got an 8 week old whippet puppy whilst already having a 12 year old collie x lurcher.  Slightly different in that the older dog has made it clear she doesn't want to play!

Pup is crated overnight, with the crate next to the older dog's bed (which actually happens to be an open crate as she prefers it to a normal dog bed).  This means I don't have to worry about the pup harrassing the older dog during the night, plus I know she is safe from chewing through things she shouldn't and it encourages them to be clean.  I don't know whether we are just lucky, if it is because both are bitches or whether it is breed dependent, but pup has no problem holding her bladder overnight from 9.30pm to 5.30am, the older dog was just the same when she was a pup too.  In fact new pup doesn't even rush out when the crate door is opened in the morning, but spends about five minutes leisurely stretching before deigning to come out so she can be taken out for a wee.

Crate training really shouldn't be hard or time-consuming with a young pup - they should take to it pretty instantly, as long as you are sensible.  (Older dogs may take longer, being set in their ways). I always travel pups in a car in a travel crate anyway, so they have already been in a crate before they reach our home.  The main mistake people make is to put the pup in the crate and immediately leave, whether that is to go upstairs to bed, or go out of the house.  Pup then associates crate with being left and therefore gets anxious about going in there.  We make a point of putting pup in her crate for a sleep during the day, whilst we remain in the same room, to avoid negative associations being built up.  If I do go out, then pup goes in the crate a little while before I actually leave.


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## TGM (29 October 2016)

bonny said:



			I would never put a dog in a cage !
		
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I don't think of a crate as a cage, but more like a cot for a puppy!  It would be irresponsible to leave a crawling baby or toddler to have free access to the house during the night, because they could get into all sorts of mischief and danger.  So we tend to put them in a cot, so we know they are safe.  Same with a puppy, except their cot is called a crate.


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## splashgirl45 (29 October 2016)

i used a crate when i had an adult lurcher and got a small border collie cross puppy...my main reason was to keep the pup safe in case she bothered the lurcher and she retaliated with a bite....i used it for night time and if i had to go out and leave them....gave me peace of mind that the little puppy couldnt be eaten if i wasnt around....once pup was big enough to look after herself i stopped using it...worked well for me..


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## Chiffy (29 October 2016)

Paddy, I have read these books and articles about taking weeks to crate train but I have brought puppies home and a crate has been their den/ bed from moment one with no trouble.
When you bring a pup home, everything is new and different. Puppy has a wee, preferably outside then a little explore and play and then needs sleep. Pop into crate but stay in the room.  A little sleep, wee, feed, wee, play, sleep and repeat. If they have a dog companion I leave mine shut in their crate from night one. 
If you get up to let out in the night, minimal speaking except reassurance and wee command, then quietly back to bed. 
Used this method for 40 years, no problem.
What on earth do you do with them if you take weeks to introduce a crate? They should think of it as their safe haven.


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## FinnishLapphund (29 October 2016)

I got my first puppy 1990, and since then, I've always used compost net to make puppy pens. I think that they're more versatile than crates, because I can make the puppy pen small, enlarge it to a bigger puppy pen, use it as a room divider, block access to electric cords etc. 
I've heard that more Swedes buys compost net to make puppy pens, than to make composts.

A few examples that I found on Google image search:


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## paddy555 (29 October 2016)

Chiffy said:



			What on earth do you do with them if you take weeks to introduce a crate?
		
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that was rather what I was wondering. At their rate by the time I had trained it the pup would no longer need one! 

thanks for your comments.


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## MurphysMinder (30 October 2016)

I have always had an older dog at the same time as a puppy and in recent years always used a crate (even if the older dog is the pups mum).        The last litter I had one pup stayed with me until 12 weeks as she was going to Spain,  she was near as damn it crate trained when she left.

Cayla's puppy and crate training guide is excellent , one of my pups went to an ex sergeant from a police dog section and he was very complimentary about it.  If you pm her she will send you one (a donation to her rescue is always appreciated).

Finny's suggestion of a puppy pen is also good, and ideal for smaller breeds.  I used similar when my pups were all here in the litter but unfortunately a shepherd pup will soon learn to climb over the top.


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## TGM (30 October 2016)

MurphysMinder said:



			Finny's suggestion of a puppy pen is also good, and ideal for smaller breeds.  I used similar when my pups were all here in the litter but unfortunately a shepherd pup will soon learn to climb over the top. 

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Funny you should say that - have just seen a photo on Facebook of a 10 week old whippet pup escaping over the top of her puppy pen!


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## Llanali (30 October 2016)

I have a pen like that for little pups, but my Salukis are out over that by 6 weeks! 

You may find your pup has already been in a crate or pen. Many breeders do use them now.


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## paddy555 (30 October 2016)

Llanali said:



			I have a pen like that for little pups, but my Salukis are out over that by 6 weeks! 

You may find your pup has already been in a crate or pen. Many breeders do use them now.
		
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very unlikely. I have already been shown by the breeder where the pups and bitch move out to,how they  are housed and where they play and how they are treated etc etc.


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## Llanali (31 October 2016)

Fair enough  all breeds and breeders are different I suppose. I hope you're excited!


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## paddy555 (31 October 2016)

Llanali said:



			Fair enough  all breeds and breeders are different I suppose. I hope you're excited!
		
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very! it has taken me several years to come to the decision of getting another GSD puppy. Had several collies and mongrels but none of them match up to the real thing!!


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## Moobli (2 November 2016)

You have already had tons of excellent advice re: crate training, so I won't add to that.  Just wanted to say good luck and I look forward to lots of gorgeous shepherd puppy pics please


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## paddy555 (2 November 2016)

WorkingGSD said:



			You have already had tons of excellent advice re: crate training, so I won't add to that.  Just wanted to say good luck and I look forward to lots of gorgeous shepherd puppy pics please 

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thank you, and for all your help. Everyone will probably roll their eyes in horror but we have decided she will sleep in the bedroom on a dog bed initially (with the crate idea in reserve if the bed doesn't work) 
At the end of the day I want her to sleep in the bedroom as her job will be to alert me to problems so may as well start off that way.


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## Clodagh (2 November 2016)

Entirely your decision, I know many people on here always sleep with ther dogs with them from pups but do please try to teach her to be on her own sometimes, dogs that are never left can be very tiring long term.


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## Leo Walker (2 November 2016)

I had Floyd in the bed with me and my other dog for a few nights. I rethought it pretty quick when he started peeing on the bed then coming and jumping on my head and biting my hair :lol: That combined with him being able to get off the bed and get himself into trouble meant he went into the crate next to the bed.


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## Moobli (2 November 2016)

paddy555 said:



			thank you, and for all your help. Everyone will probably roll their eyes in horror but we have decided she will sleep in the bedroom on a dog bed initially (with the crate idea in reserve if the bed doesn't work) 
At the end of the day I want her to sleep in the bedroom as her job will be to alert me to problems so may as well start off that way.
		
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My pups always sleep in my bedroom with me (either in a crate or on a dog bed, depending on the pup) so no rolled eyes from me


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## paddy555 (2 November 2016)

FrankieCob said:



			I had Floyd in the bed with me and my other dog for a few nights. I rethought it pretty quick when he started peeing on the bed then coming and jumping on my head and biting my hair :lol: That combined with him being able to get off the bed and get himself into trouble meant he went into the crate next to the bed.
		
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absolutely no way!  I sleep in a very nice, warm and comfortable bed. A dog sleeps on a dog bed which is situated on the floor. I don't go and sleep on it's bed and no way does it sleep on mine.


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## jakkibag (3 November 2016)

We have just introduced an 8 week old pup to our home and older dog, crate is A must for us as puppy is so tiny and older dog is a bit of a lump!  we are on night two and hardly heard a peep from him last night, crate is in sitting room next to big dogs bed, good luck with your puppy, know what your going through!


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## paulineh (11 November 2016)

My puppies always sleep in the crate for the first few days then out into the kennels. They toilet train themselves. A crate can be useful for many things. I recently had a dog who had an operation on his ligament and had to be crated for a month.

I had an older dog 15 years old and the others blended in well. The old boy was fine with the others-Puppies


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