# Feeding a good doer



## applecart14 (19 May 2016)

Sorry for long post.

Had a recent chit chat with the vet in respect of feeding my good doer who is 17.1hh WB gelding aged 19.  He had splenic entrapment at the weekend so it was the ideal opportunity to discuss his feeding. Vet says has no idea what cause the splenic entrapment, says it could have been down to dehydration, gas from grass or one of those things.  Says he doubts its the grass as he'd been on it six days by the time he had colic and over ten days from swapping him onto a mix.

 He says Bailey should be receiving 1.5 % of his body weight in total forage (feed, hay and grass). Its hard to quantify grass - at present he's out for two hours a day but will be going overnight into a strip grazing system in a field at the start of June.  He had been at the yard for the last two years, always held a bit of weight, but its tricky, you can see his ribs visually and feel them but he looks like he has a belly - I have put this down to his age (is 19) and the lack of stomach muscles (not been in FULL work since December due to injury).  His worm tests have concluded no worms although I've always suspected he may have had a little redworm burden due to the repeated colics he was having, at one point prior to moving yards, but then ruled that out as the grass on the previous yard was very rich, and he's only had about four colics in the two years he's been at his new yard.

He started going out in the paddock on Monday for two hours a day to get his tummy used to the grass again. Before that since coming off the fields in November he was in a sandpit with access to a haynet for two hours a day.  I was feeding him approx. 15lbs of hay (weighed before wetting) overnight split between two small holed nets and there was always a little wastage on the floor and bottom of nets the next day.  Then when he came in after his two hours (9am ish) he was having approx. 6lbs of hay (weighed before wetting) and another net approx. 2pm (5lbs in weight before wetting).

He has literally a handful of chaff, a handful of mix, pink powder, joint supplement and Magic with a couple of carotts and/or an apple split between two feeds (a.m and p.m).  

He's ridden about six hours a week, mostly hacking now the light nights, couple of days schooling -if you can it that -due to recovering injury which is doing fab according to the vet.  So nothing intensive -30 mins tops, no lateral work or any jumping, bit of canter, mostly trot, pole work, etc.

I have reduced his nets to 10lb total dry weight per night and 8lb total dry weight during the day. Would you say this is an accurate amount to feed him? 

 Please no nasty comments.


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## Morgan123 (19 May 2016)

Hello - you haven't mentioned his condition score or how much you want him to lose, or what he weighs - so worth considering that in the first instance to work out how much to feed him! But if you're putting him on a 1.5% diet I'm guessing you want him to lose quite a bit....? Though if you can see his ribs he can't be very overweight? Am a bit confused - it sounds like you really need to be building up his muscle and topline rather than dieting him? But perhaps I just haven't understood what you've said....

If you ARE dieting him for weight loss, you've mentioned wetting the hay but not soaking it; you could soak it to remove more calories. Personally I'd change the handful of non-specific chaff and mix to a low-cal balancer - many vets suggest that this is ideal when dieting because you can ensure that they are getting adequate vitamins, minerals, and protein.


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## applecart14 (19 May 2016)

Morgan123 said:



			Hello - you haven't mentioned his condition score or how much you want him to lose, or what he weighs - so worth considering that in the first instance to work out how much to feed him! But if you're putting him on a 1.5% diet I'm guessing you want him to lose quite a bit....? Though if you can see his ribs he can't be very overweight? Am a bit confused - it sounds like you really need to be building up his muscle and topline rather than dieting him? But perhaps I just haven't understood what you've said....

If you ARE dieting him for weight loss, you've mentioned wetting the hay but not soaking it; you could soak it to remove more calories. Personally I'd change the handful of non-specific chaff and mix to a low-cal balancer - many vets suggest that this is ideal when dieting because you can ensure that they are getting adequate vitamins, minerals, and protein.
		
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Hi Morgan123, I was led to believe that all horses should eat 1.5% of their total bodyweight in forage per day regardless.  This is the general rule of thumb.  I was probably giving him more hay than he needed as I was concerned about the colic risk, with him going long periods without hay.

He weighs around 690KG.  He is on Dengie good doer chaff and an instant energy mix as he has been on it previously, I wanted to give him something to give him more stamina without making him stupid and so this mix is particularly suited to laid back horses (which he is).  He is only on a very small amount as he is not in much work but he was only on six mugs a day split between two feeds previously when he was competing and it was enough for him and really made a difference.  I appreciate your advice but I doubt I will put him on a low cal balancer as the pink powder is a balancer and I cannot afford to factor more money into his feed with the three supplements he is on currently.


This is typically what my horse normally looks like he bloats very easily on grass and it can be deceptive.






Although he can swing to this photo  just as easily (you can see his ribs)







I am trying to keep him more like the second photo but obviously improve his top line although he has lot a degree of muscle due to his injury which he is recovering from.  In four or five weeks he will be able to jump again and I plan to start doing more schooling with him with a view to doing a couple of prelim tests by July which isnt unreasonable according to the vet.

This last photo was taken a month ago, he looks a little different to this now as I have done more work with him.


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## JenJ (19 May 2016)

If you're happy with how he's looking and feeling, I would say it's accurate enough. 

I'm a big fan of keeping things simple - my two (11yo 17hh wb and 24yo 16hh wb) get a 1/2 scoop of straw chaff, a tiny handful of grass nuts, vit/min supplement and my 11yo gets a scoop of magic. I increase the volume of nuts over winter and add some linseed. Both have ad lib hay.

Most other people on my yard feed all sorts of wonderfully marketed mixes, nuts and chaffs, but I'm happy with my choices.

Only thing I'd say about your is I'd ditch the apples and carrots, but that's just a personal dislike to lots of added sugars. I would also possibly ditch the mix - if he only gets a token amount, does it actually make a difference to his performance? And I'm not a fan of additives/fillers etc.

edit - sorry, having re-read your post, was your question just about quantities of hay? In which case ignore the above, but I would always favour ad lib hay, and reduce the amount I offer each night until there's a only a little bit leftover.


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## Morgan123 (19 May 2016)

He's lovely . Very smart. 

2% is a thought of as a maintenance diet (i.e. what horses would choose in roughage) so 1.5% is what you generally use when dieting. Sounds like with him you want a little weight loss but not loads, maybe sit on the fence and go with 1.75....?

I do get what you're saying about not changing feed, BUT the idea behind using a balancer as opposed to a vitamin supplement (which is pretty much what you're getting in pink powder if I understand it correctly, alongside the probiotic obviously), is that you're not just getting vits and mins balanced, but also proteins, amino acids etc - you may already be getting this from the mix, but you may not, especially as you're probably not feeding the recommended daily amount? A balancer sorts out the right amounts of everything for you, hence can be used while dieting to replace what's lost. Personally even if you don't go with a balancer, I'd probably consider removing the high energy mix; as you're doing little work, this energy probably isn't being used up with work? If it's 'Instant energy' it's likely to be very high in sugar I would think, and you've said you want 'stamina' which is a different requirement altogether. If it was me I'd change the mix and chaff to a complete feed I think - but each to their own obviously! It might be worth contacting a nutritionist for advice on this. I'd also be a bit concerned that you're overdoing some things; I think PP already has balanced amounts of Magnesium but MAgic is also a magnesium based calmer, so between those, and also if your high energy mix also happens top contain Mg, you could be way overdoing it. I'm not a nutritionist so I wouldn't want to 'advise' but I would recommend contacting someone to talk about this with; all the feed companies have super helpful people who reply really quickly, I've always been very impressed.

Just out of interest, why do you feed a high energy mix and also magic calmer....?

He's a lovely horse, hope he gets better soon and that the colic doesn't recur.


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## applecart14 (19 May 2016)

Morgan123 said:



			He's lovely . Very smart. 



Just out of interest, why do you feed a high energy mix and also magic calmer....?

He's a lovely horse, hope he gets better soon and that the colic doesn't recur.
		
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Thanks!

The energy mix is because he was lacking a little energy.  It really does make a difference, he used to be on it previously as he was so laid back - he would fall asleep tied to the back of the trailer at competitions in between classes!  I started feeding the instant response by Spillers for laid back horses and it gave him energy but didn't make him silly.  It seems to be doing the trick since I've started feeding it 11 days ago, although he's out at grass so is probably getting more energy from that too.

The Magic because it makes him less spooky.  He has always been so, but is much more manageable on the Magic.  His spooks deescalate so much quicker.

Never thought about all the magnesium that he is getting to be honest although Magic has different ingredients that work in conjunction with each other so is really effective.

Hi Jen J - I agree with your comments about the sugar content in the apples and carrots, he's had these every night for 12 years - this could be what makes him spooky although I cut them right out during the 'spooking trial' I had a few weeks ago and it made no difference to him. I remember Speedi Beet proclaiming that there was more sugar in a medium carrot than in a whole stubbs scoop of Speedi Beet which is frightening! 

We are going to book a nutrionalist to come out and give us all a weigh and an idea of where we are going wrong, although from my experience of this, I usually find that they tend to recommend most horses go on a balancer - obviously this is their most expensive product so I find myself a little skeptical about this!


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## ester (19 May 2016)

applecart14 said:



			but its tricky, you can see his ribs visually and feel them but he looks like he has a belly - I have put this down to his age (is 19) a
		
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This is a classic cushings symptom.


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## JenJ (19 May 2016)

applecart14 said:



			It seems to be doing the trick since I've started feeding it 11 days ago, *although he's out at grass so is probably getting more energy from that too*.

The Magic because it makes him less spooky.  He has always been so, but is much more manageable on the Magic.  His spooks deescalate so much quicker.

Never thought about all the magnesium that he is getting to be honest although Magic has different ingredients that work in conjunction with each other so is really effective.
		
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Being sceptical, I would suggest the extra energy is from grass, especially as a. he hasn't been out on grass over winter and b. you're feeding so little. I'd save your money and not buy anymore 

The magic has worked well with mine too - only been a few weeks, but he's a lot less distracted by what is going on around him when being ridden now.


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## Leo Walker (19 May 2016)

ester said:



			This is a classic cushings symptom.
		
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Your wasting your time sadly. But I have thought the same previously, and the photo just backs it up.


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## KautoStar1 (19 May 2016)

I'm another one who thinks it's worth getting him tested for cushings.  You could well spend a lot of time and money on feeds & supplements trying to counter different behaviours without knowing if there is something underlying.  It's such a cheap test & worth the peace of mind.

The trouble with good doers is that until you have the weight off & got them to a basic level of fitness then anything energy boosting is just likely to be fat stored just compounding the weight & sluggishness which you reported a few weeks back.   

I would soak hay & feed a low cal balanced & get your horse hacking out. Get him marching off your leg and into a contact so he's actually making an effort rather than tootling along on a long rein (I'm not saying you are doing this but if you are, don't).  Hacking is work for now not fun. 

Once you've got a bit of basic fitness under your belt & some weight loss then you can consider energy boosting feeds.   

I'd check out some of the St Hippolyte feeds. They are really low in sugar & starch & have no soya oil or molasses in. And they are all fully balanced so you don't need anything extra like pink powder or chops etc


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## ester (19 May 2016)

usually free for first timers june-october if they repeat previous years deals


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## Silmarillion (20 May 2016)

ester said:



			usually free for first timers june-october if they repeat previous years deals
		
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I've already seen the free tests advertised on Facebook, so yes it's the same as previous years and starts on 1st June.

The stood up photo looks very similar to my old mare, I never had her tested for Cushings and was told by the vet that she had a "broodmare's belly". Now I have a different and formally diagnosed Cushings horse I'm convinced she had it too. Would definitely be worth testing this horse, otherwise you don't know what his dietary needs actually are.


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## applecart14 (20 May 2016)

Ok if its free then I will get it done but I know I am wasting my time with a cushings test.  The vet has already said the same.
He has a belly because he is full of grass.  Wednesday night he looked like the second photo, last night he looked like the tacked up photo. He gasses up.

But fine I will get it done if anything to prove that you are wrong and because I love my horse so much.  Maybe someone could send me a link and explain to me how it all works.

I have rang up this morning to start paying off my vets bill from this colic episode.  £479.00.  Bit of a shock, but hey ho.  You get quality service then I am not going to complain.  Goodness knows how I am going to pay this one off, I've only just finished paying for the last one.

These are the symptoms of cushings.
&#9726;heavy hair growth that may be curly and doesn&#8217;t shed normally   NO
&#9726;excessive sweating (including heat stress in hot humid conditions)  NO
&#9726;increased thirst and urination  NO
&#9726;muscle wasting   YES (due to being out of work and under rehab)
&#9726;lethargy and poor performance  (due to being unfit/depressed)
&#9726;an increased susceptibility to infection (particularly sinusitis, teeth and hoof infections)   NO
&#9726;slow healing wounds   NO (on the contrary Bails heals incredibly quickly)
&#9726;pot bellied  (NOT REALLY - more like lack of stomach muscles due to lack of exercise due to rehab)
&#9726;increased appetite   (NOT THAT I'VE NOTICED)
&#9726;weight loss (which may be hard to detect under the curly coat)  (NOPE)
&#9726;Mucky eyes and sheath  (NOPE)
&#9726;Fat pads around the eyes, along crest of the neck, above the tail and in sheath area  (CERTAINLY NOT)
&#9726;Abnormal season or infertility in mares  (N/A)


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## _HP_ (20 May 2016)

ester said:



			This is a classic cushings symptom.
		
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I agree with this....also from the second photo you can clearly see the classic dip at the base of the withers on Cushing's horses Plus fat pads on his butt and crest.

http://www.thelaminitissite.org/ppid.html


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## applecart14 (20 May 2016)

_HP_ said:



			I agree with this....also from the second photo you can clearly see the classic dip at the base of the withers on Cushing's horses Plus fat pads on his butt and crest.

http://www.thelaminitissite.org/ppid.html

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Christ alive.  You do make me laugh.  You don't think the dip (that he has had for 12 years) is anything to do with his confirmation then?  So every horse with a dip behind its withers that is over the age of 18 has cushings? Maybe he just carries fat in those areas.

If I were to take a photo of him tonight you would see a totally different horse again.  That second photo was taken prior to him going out on grass.  I really can't see where you are coming from but you have my word that I will get him tested if it is free and you have my word that I will tell you if it is positive.  I cannot afford anymore expense at the moment, not even a penny.


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## _HP_ (20 May 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Ok if its free then I will get it done but I know I am wasting my time with a cushings test.  The vet has already said the same.
He has a belly because he is full of grass.  Wednesday night he looked like the second photo, last night he looked like the tacked up photo. He gasses up.

But fine I will get it done if anything to prove that you are wrong and because I love my horse so much.  Maybe someone could send me a link and explain to me how it all works.

I have rang up this morning to start paying off my vets bill from this colic episode.  £479.00.  Bit of a shock, but hey ho.  You get quality service then I am not going to complain.  Goodness knows how I am going to pay this one off, I've only just finished paying for the last one.

These are the symptoms of cushings.
&#9726;heavy hair growth that may be curly and doesnt shed normally   NO
&#9726;excessive sweating (including heat stress in hot humid conditions)  NO
&#9726;increased thirst and urination  NO
&#9726;muscle wasting   YES (due to being out of work and under rehab)
&#9726;lethargy and poor performance  (due to being unfit/depressed)
&#9726;an increased susceptibility to infection (particularly sinusitis, teeth and hoof infections)   NO
&#9726;slow healing wounds   NO (on the contrary Bails heals incredibly quickly)
&#9726;pot bellied  (NOT REALLY - more like lack of stomach muscles due to lack of exercise due to rehab)
&#9726;increased appetite   (NOT THAT I'VE NOTICED)
&#9726;weight loss (which may be hard to detect under the curly coat)  (NOPE)
&#9726;Mucky eyes and sheath  (NOPE)
&#9726;Fat pads around the eyes, along crest of the neck, above the tail and in sheath area  (CERTAINLY NOT)
&#9726;Abnormal season or infertility in mares  (N/A)
		
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Symptoms vary and they may have one or all of these and diagnosis should include clinical signs
I hope your horse doesn't have it but if he were mine I'd suspect he has looking at those photos and what you've posted on here before


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## ester (20 May 2016)

Seriously AC there is no need for you to fly of the handle, I was just stating a simple fact from YOUR description and exact words. I didn't go into it any further other than to suggest the test will shortly be free for obvious reasons but you still seem to have managed to go all drama about it.

And how many of that list do you think adorablealice's chap was showing? 
For a lot of horses it isn't a bad idea to check routinely once they reach a certain age anyway. Maybe he doesn't and the indicators (of which he does have a few) are just circumstantial/have other causes as you seem to be adamant is the case but I don't see the big deal in testing and as pointed out by Kautostar1 it may actually save you money in the long run.


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## _HP_ (20 May 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Christ alive.  You do make me laugh.  You don't think the dip (that he has had for 12 years) is anything to do with his confirmation then?  So every horse with a dip behind its withers that is over the age of 18 has cushings? Maybe he just carries fat in those areas.

If I were to take a photo of him tonight you would see a totally different horse again.  That second photo was taken prior to him going out on grass.  I really can't see where you are coming from but you have my word that I will get him tested if it is free and you have my word that I will tell you if it is positive.  I cannot afford anymore expense at the moment, not even a penny.
		
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I'm not arguing with you so I'm not sure why you're being so rude....just trying to help!!

I didn't say that every horse with it has cushings. I am saying that given what he looks like and the things you written on here, he sounds like he COULD have Cushing's and it may be worth a test.
My advice.?? Take it or leave it....BRAT&#128556;


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## applecart14 (20 May 2016)

Christ alive so you reckon every horse over the age of 18 that has a dip behind its withers is a candidate for a cushings test.  He's had the dip behind his withers since I bought him in 2004 when he was seven. He has no other symptoms that a little bit of what you describe as fat on his arse.

I really don't see where you are coming from but you have my word that as long as this test is totally free (can't see how it can be) then I will not only get it done but that I will promise to declare on this forum the result.  Lets hope he hasn't got it as there is no way I can afford £1 a day for prascend on top of the £12 a day I reckon he already costs me in feed, insurance, rent, supplements, feed and shoeing.


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## ester (20 May 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Christ alive so you reckon every horse over the age of 18 that has a dip behind its withers is a candidate for a cushings test.
		
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Yes, any horse over the age of 18 is a candidate, even more so if they have any of the listed indicators.
The lab test is free, you have to pay the vet to take blood. 

If you can't afford prascend then you monitor, feed agnus caste to control symptoms and accept that you will likely need to PTS earlier than if you did use it. Although as Kauto star said it might alter your feed and supplement requirements anyway.

One might assume it better to pay for a treatment than insurance (he can't have much covered by now anyway?) or other things but that is obviously personal choice.


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## _HP_ (20 May 2016)

Don't do it to prove us wrong...do it for your horse.


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## _HP_ (20 May 2016)

'Christ alive so you reckon every horse over the age of 18 that has a dip behind its withers is a candidate for a cushings test.'

Yes....especially if they have fat pad, a crest and lethargy


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## applecart14 (20 May 2016)

ester said:



			Yes, any horse over the age of 18 is a candidate, even more so if they have any of the listed indicators.
The lab test is free, you have to pay the vet to take blood. 

If you can't afford prascend then you monitor, feed agnus caste to control symptoms and accept that you will likely need to PTS earlier than if you did use it. Although as Kauto star said it might alter your feed and supplement requirements anyway.

One might assume it better to pay for a treatment than insurance (he can't have much covered by now anyway?) or other things but that is obviously personal choice.
		
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I thought about cancelling his insurance but not sure if this would be a sensible thing to do.  Anyway this post is digressing again so I am now opting out. THanks for your comments. Need to pay this bill off first before I can contemplate yet more expense.


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## KautoStar1 (20 May 2016)

But for the cost of a blood test, its well worth it isn&#8217;t it ?  AA&#8217;s lovely show horse didn&#8217;t have any classic symptoms but he has been tested positive and is now managed accordingly and doing fine.

Its also worth pointing out that a lot of the things you&#8217;ve mentioned in recent months are simply the outcome of ageing.   We all get a bit slower, stiffer, lethargic etc as we age.  And with your horses previous issues, age may well just be catching up.    At least if you have a test done then you have a good start point to reviewing his exercise routine and diet.   

I agree, its hard for fat unfit horses to be enthusiastic about their work and it&#8217;s a vicious circle when feeding these types &#8211; you want more energy so that they can work a bit harder but that usually ends up being fat stored.  The best advice is get the weight off first with a forage based diet and steady exercise and once hes a bit slimmer I bet his energy levels will naturally return.

As he is colicy too, have you considered a charcoal supplement ?

Also quick question:  why feed a calmer and an energy boosting feed ?  The two things seem at odds with one another somehow.


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## applecart14 (20 May 2016)

KautoStar1 said:



			Also quick question:  why feed a calmer and an energy boosting feed ?  The two things seem at odds with one another somehow.
		
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HI KS

Fair question, bit like riding in a Pelham and having spurs on! 

The energy mix is because he was lacking a little energy. It really does make a difference, he used to be on it previously as he was so laid back - he would fall asleep tied to the back of the trailer at competitions in between classes! I started feeding the instant response by Spillers for laid back horses and it gave him energy but didn't make him silly.  It made him more alert and his concentration levels increased.   It seems to be doing the trick since I've started feeding it 13 days ago, although he's out at grass so is probably getting more energy from that too.  It must be depressing being in bed for 21 hours a day, like us if we spend our time in bed in makes us very tired. With the Spillers instant response its the stamina I require from him which is what it gives him.  i.e he has more controlled energy.  Very little makes a difference with him, when competing he was only having six mugs per day.  Since starting it 13 days ago he was on two mugs per day.  Now since his colic I am reintroducing it.

 The Magic because it makes him less spooky. He has always been so, but is much more manageable on the Magic. His spooks deescalate so much quicker.  I've taken him off it twice and each time I got the spookiness back.  He does still spook at things but again, is much more controllable and deescalates so much quicker.

Read more at https://forums-secure.horseandhound...29243-Feeding-a-good-doer#gm424QOSt1O1voHy.99


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## Morgan123 (20 May 2016)

Personally with lazy horses I've always found that the thing that picks them up and increases their energy is getting them fitter - and that's free! My personal opinion is that his diet is not balanced and as a result you're spending a lot on supplements which is why it's all so expensive. But it's easy to say that without being the one feeding the horse infront of you, so I'll be interested to see what the nutritionist says too! Good luck with everything.


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## applecart14 (20 May 2016)

Morgan123 said:



			Personally with lazy horses I've always found that the thing that picks them up and increases their energy is getting them fitter - and that's free! My personal opinion is that his diet is not balanced and as a result you're spending a lot on supplements which is why it's all so expensive. But it's easy to say that without being the one feeding the horse infront of you, so I'll be interested to see what the nutritionist says too! Good luck with everything.
		
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The pink powder he's been on for about 9 years for his colics. When the vet came out for the splenic entrapment I told her it obviously wasn't working and she replied that I didn't know that for sure, as his colic could have been a lot worse without the pink powder!

The Magic for the reasons stated previously. THe joint supplement to support stiffness from spavin/coffin joint.

I need to get fitter before he can I'm afraid. I'm carrying an excess 2 stone


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## supsup (20 May 2016)

I think you need to consider the big belly as a separate issue from "condition" (aka weight/fat/how many calories to feed). When condition scoring, you really only consider the top and sides of the horse (crest, bum, fat pads on ribs...), the size of the belly is not a good indication whether the horse is carrying too much fat. It may be more a sign of how much forage the horse had lately, if it's a bit gassy or that it may have some digestive issues. If you can see and feel ribs and there are no obvious fat pads, I don't think I'd try to reduce the horse's weight further.

"Balancers" tend to be supplements with daily vits, mins and essential amino acids (aka "quality protein") in a pelleted form so you can feed them "neat" without any additional bucket feed, just add forage. If that is how you feed it, they are not really more expensive than the combined cost of vit&min supplements plus concentrate/bucket feeds as a carrier. For example, Spillers Lite balancer costs £20 for 20kg. That works out at 50p/day for a 500kg horse. That can be convenient if you don't want to feed extra calories, and there's no need for other supplements or feeds. So I don't think these are necessarily a rip-off, and I think many feed reps recommend them because the horses they see don't need the full dose of a compound feed, and a "small hand of chaff" of similar simply doesn't provide the full daily dose of vits&mins.

You can supply the same vits, mins and essential amino acids if you 1) either feed the daily recommended amount of a compound feed (few people do that, because few leisure horses need several kilos of bucket feed per day) or 2) feed a small amount of bucket feed (anything) and add a supplement that contains vits, mins and essential amino acids. Pink powder does contain amino acids, but at very low levels. You'd have to feed 800g/day to get 5g lysine (typical daily dose).

Some amino acids are "essential" because the horse has to get them via the diet, and can't produce them himself. If these are missing, he can't use the rest of the protein in the diet to build muscle, so supplementing essential amino acids is a bit like "insurance" to make sure that this is not what is holding back your horse from building muscle. It's pretty much impossible to tell whether the forage naturally contains enough of these amino acids, but if you feed a calorie restricted diet, you're more likely to also restrict quality protein.

It might be worth shopping around for an alternative supplement that contains better levels of amino acids and vits&mins than the pink powder, but also supports gut function (if that is why you are feeding the pink powder).


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## ester (20 May 2016)

See IMO joint supplements cannot scientifically work and just creating expensive poo. 
pink powder is very limited in what it supplies and would not be my go to vits/mins/AA supplement or for gastric issues. (It is mostly brewers yeast and calcium carbonate)

I have used spillers instant energy, it showed up in large bruise lines in F's feet so although it sort of did the job the molasses in it were not good.


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## ester (20 May 2016)

actually they say it contains a probiotic but I can't see it, just the yeast 
Equimins advanced complete contains nearly as much yeast, + 2 probiotics + everything else you need and I think it costs <£1 a day at highest feeding rate.


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## HufflyPuffly (20 May 2016)

So saddened to hear that you are just mocking the suggestion to test for Cushings, christ it's not expensive, stressful or really that much of an inconvience to have him tested is it? The amount of vet visits he's had, he and you doen't seem the sort to try and avoid the vet (as in he doesn't seem phobic of the vet/ needles and you seem like a responsible owner).

He to me looks to be typical of a Cushings horse in the early stages, and if I take your guide and fill in my answers from when she was tested:

These are the symptoms of cushings.
&#9726;heavy hair growth that may be curly and doesn&#8217;t shed normally   NO
&#9726;excessive sweating (including heat stress in hot humid conditions)  NO
&#9726;increased thirst and urination  NO
&#9726;muscle wasting   NO
&#9726;lethargy and poor performance  NO
&#9726;an increased susceptibility to infection (particularly sinusitis, teeth and hoof infections)   NO
&#9726;slow healing wounds   NO 
&#9726;pot bellied  NO
&#9726;increased appetite   NO
&#9726;weight loss (which may be hard to detect under the curly coat)  NO
&#9726;Mucky eyes and sheath  NO
&#9726;Fat pads around the eyes, along crest of the neck, above the tail and in sheath area  NO
&#9726;Abnormal season or infertility in mares  NO

So my horse had none of those symptoms, her only symptom was slight hoof sensitivity (masked by shoes but very evident when they were removed and just about perceptable to hoof testers). I am eternally greatful to my vet who felt something wasn't right and acted on it, although she was 20 (or there abouts) when tested I would never had said she looked like a cushings horse as I too just imagined the curly coat.

We actually think she's probably had cushings for a number of years before we tested when we looked back on it, but as it is only just becoming apparent that much younger horses can have the disease she was obviously only tested a couple of years ago.

So your horse has more symptoms of lethagy, poor condition (in the ribby and pot belly) and seems to carry weight in the suspect areas for a cushings horse, than mine did...

Back to your question of feeding, I feed my Cushings horse:
- Alpha A mollasses free
- Grass nuts
- Rolled oats (for condition and they are tummy and feet friendly)
- Micronised Linseed
- Riaflex (joint supplement)
- Pro-Earth's Pro-Laminea balancer

She was on three feeds a day and is now on just one after going out in the summer fields.

(and Ester how dare you say the joint supplement is expensive poop  it makes me feel better anyway!)


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## ester (20 May 2016)

Sorry expensive poop that makes owners feel better 




I'd drop it to feed prascend any day if I couldn't afford both though.


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## HufflyPuffly (20 May 2016)

ester said:



			Sorry expensive poop that makes owners feel better 




I'd drop it to feed prascend any day if I couldn't afford both though.
		
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 that's better and yes I agree about rather medicating than feeding something which may or may not work (placebo effect has been shown in pets has it not? Where the owner feels there is an improvement?).


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## ester (20 May 2016)

yup placebo effect is very much effective in animals


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## _HP_ (20 May 2016)

Would a Cushing's test and medication be taken care of with insurance?


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## ester (20 May 2016)

Yes medication would be covered for a year usually.


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## Doormouse (20 May 2016)

I am another who would agree it might be worth the test just for peace of mind, horses are all so individual.

From the feeding point of view, my youngster is very similar in weight and behaviour to Bailey. Bit inclined to the tubby, very laid back and runs out of puff quite quickly but also very spooky.  I now feed her a tiny bit of fast fibre, 4/5 grass nuts (they keep her happy) and 1/2kg of Copra Coolstance and Top Spec Calmer and Equimins Complete. She has ad lib hay during the day when she is in and she follows the other horses in paddocks so gets very little grass. Seems to suit her very well and interestingly I feed my daughters pony (who has cushings and is on 1/2 tablet a day) a bit of Copra too to give her the energy to keep up with rallies and stuff and it has worked well for her too.


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## Silmarillion (20 May 2016)

applecart14 said:



			Ok if its free then I will get it done but I know I am wasting my time with a cushings test.
		
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Apologies if my reply to ester's comment was misleading, tbe lab fees are free but you'd have to pay for the vet to come and take the blood.



applecart14 said:



			But fine I will get it done if anything to prove that you are wrong and because I love my horse so much.
		
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I'm guessing from this that Cushings has been suggested before... If he were mine I'd get him tested, just so I had the fact that he doesn't have it down on his vet records and I could then proceed with trying to find a dietary solution to the problem I see rather than the potential unseen problem of Cushings. Compared to the daily cost of having a horse I think the cost of the test during the "discounted" period is a drop in the ocean, and well worth it just so you can rule it out - after all, if a horse bucked you off uncharacteristically you'd get its teeth, back and tack checked first.
But of course he's not mine and your course of action is up to you!


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## applecart14 (20 May 2016)

alexhyde said:



			so saddened to hear that you are just mocking the suggestion to test for cushings, christ it's not expensive, stressful or really that much of an inconvience to have him tested is it? )
		
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*
i am not mocking it.  It is not an inconvenience. I did NOT say it was, so stop trying to make me out to be the bad guy all the time.* But i am still reeling from the vets three visits to my horse at the weekend resulting in the £500 bill that i  have been left and am still worried sick about him without contemplating anymore vets visits or stress. I honestly thought I was going to lose him and I don't feel that we are quite out of the woods yet either.

So excuse me if i don't jump on the phone immediately.  I will do it when i do it just leave it and stop nagging every five minutes.  Please.... I have enough to cope with at the moment.    I need to spend the next few weeks paying this bill off.   I said I would do it.  I will keep my word.


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## HufflyPuffly (20 May 2016)

applecart14 said:



			i am not mocking it.  It is not an inconvenience.  But i am still reeling from the vets three visits to my horse at teh weekend resulting in the £500 bill that i  have been left.

So excuse me if i don't jump on the phone immediately.  I will do it when i do it.
		
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With respect I have seen it mentioned on previous posts well before this weekend. As someone who in the past year has spent well in excess of £1500 on vet bills for my golden oldie (and about the same again for my youngster), and would not hesitiate to have anything else investigated and treated if it will prolong and improve my horses quality of life, I do not find your attitude to it favourable sorry.

The test would be no where near that amount so I don't see it as all that relevent. You have posted complaining about symptoms which point to Cushings and have then shot any suggestion that it could be Cushings down, I just wonder what response you thought you'd get?


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## SpringArising (20 May 2016)

applecart14 said:



*
i am not mocking it.  It is not an inconvenience. I did NOT say it was.* But i am still reeling from the vets three visits to my horse at the weekend resulting in the £500 bill that i  have been left and am still worried sick about him without contemplating anymore vets visits or stress. I honestly thought I was going to lose him and I don't feel that we are quite out of the woods yet either.

So excuse me if i don't jump on the phone immediately.  I will do it when i do it just leave it and stop nagging every five minutes.  Please.... I have enough to cope with at the moment.    I need to spend the next few weeks paying this bill off along with my holiday installments that I am paying for each week.  I said I would do it.  I will keep my word.
		
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Honestly from the sounds of things and from what you've written before you've been through the wars with him and I don't blame you for being stressed. The horse isn't going to keel over from not having the test done immediately.

Take a deep breath and remember that everyone does things differently and in their own way. There's no right or wrong! It's evident that you care a lot about him.


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## ester (20 May 2016)

I don't think anyone suggested it needed doing yesterday, when the vet is next in the vicinity would be fine! But it is something worth having an answer on before AC14 spends much other money on altering feeding etc as all that might be a losing battle.


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## HashRouge (20 May 2016)

ester said:



			Sorry expensive poop that makes owners feel better 




I'd drop it to feed prascend any day if I couldn't afford both though.
		
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Prascend is all mine has in summer - she eats her feed like a good girl all through the winter, then as soon as the summer grass comes through she isn't interested. I'm lucky if she'll deign to sniff at a handful of chaff and last year she decided she didn't like polos anymore either, thank you very much. I have to shove the tablet into the corner of her mouth to get it down her! I'd like her to have a good vitamin and mineral supplement all year round, but I'm definitely fighting a losing battle! Re the cushings symptoms - the only ones my girl had were increased susceptibility to infection (she kept getting abscesses) and possibly slight loss of muscle tone, though it would have gone unnoticed if not for the abscesses.



_HP_ said:



			Would a Cushing's test and medication be taken care of with insurance?
		
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Yes - my mare had hers covered for the first year (apart from the excess obviously)


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## Leo Walker (20 May 2016)

Last time I had one tested I picked a free call out day and it cost me £40 ish. I'd printed out the voucher ready, but my vets didnt need it in the end as they routinely sorted out the free labs for cushings tests


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## AdorableAlice (20 May 2016)

My lad is very flattered to be called gorgeous.

I like the Spillers brand and used the slow response mix when the horse was at his peak in the show ring.  Not being a greedy feeder he never consumed more than 1kg per feed, he was a good doer in his competitive years and remains a good doer in retirement.  However if he was off colour or upset he went from impressive to pinched overnight.  Throughout the years I have always kept good quality hay or haylage in front of him.  As he would never eat enough to ensure the correct mineral balance I added Pro Hoof and linseed.  If he was very busy and had overnight stays I used Equi Jewel in very small amounts.  I found the Spiller Slow Response ideal for a show horse, he was sane and mannerly but could explode into a real gallop when asked, it also gave enough energy to get him around the occasional very big ring.  He was kept fit though.

Despite being a good doer, there was never any point in using the empty calorie type feeds as he just didn't like them.  At no point post testing for cushings did he show any form of lethargy, nor did he have any symptoms.

I really don't think any vet can claim that a horse does not have cushings by just looking at the horse.  An educated guess can be made but only the blood test will give conclusive answers.

He has been on prescend for 4 years now, one pill daily until early summer last year when he went to 1 and a half pills daily following suffering a chesty cough that would not clear and awful LV on his white legs.

Believe it or not this is a picture of a cushings horse before being treated and found to have a high count.  Never underestimate this god awful disease or its powers of destruction and suffering.







His diet today is a strange one.  Obviously I have to aim for 10% or less.  He has top quality haylage through the winter and lives out in a fashion.  He is in a barn with a deep shavings bed on rubber, the door is open and he wanders out as he pleases. He has Happy Hoof with a sprinkle of warm dampened bran, Spiller light balancer, pro hoof and his pills in a carrot sandwich.  Unorthodox I know but he looks magnificent at the moment and I have cut his hay back to almost nothing as there is now some grass in his paddocks.  He was retested recently and had a count of 29, so we are in control at the moment.  At 23 I just take everyday as a blessing, he is ridable but I prefer to just enjoy his company.

This is how he came out of winter, not great but ok.


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## KautoStar1 (20 May 2016)

Looks bloody great for 23 just out of winter. He is a credit to you. 

As you say it can some times be impossible to spot a cushings horse without a blood test.  Indeed last year mine displayed a range of mild symptoms & all together these were enough for me to get the test done.  It was negative thankfully & the horse actually had a low grade virus. 

Feeding is such an individual choice isn't it & I always think less is more.  Good quality forage,  a full complement of vits & mins & then you take if from there based on work being done.  And good doers do tend to be laid back characters by nature always doing just enough.  
Having a lazy large horse with a tendency for self harm I do feel for OP but as someone else has said, fitness is the key to improving a lethargic horse, always assuming there is nothing underlying mechanically or metabolically.


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## ihatework (21 May 2016)

This is a 20yo TB horse who has been diagnosed with cushings for 5 years although suspect had it longer, retired since 13yo. He is not well controlled and had his first laminitis attack approx 3 months before that photo was taken (hence the scrubby paddock)


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## only_me (21 May 2016)

It might be worth changing mixes to sacren releve (not sure if you have bluegrass in England) as its low starch but gives my boy plenty of energy but not over the top. It would also help his gut  

The arthri aid HA is meant to be very good for joints, could be worth a go  

It would probably be a good idea to test for cushings just on the off chance that he does have it, there is every chance he doesn't have it as well. But I admit, I don't know a lot about cushings in horses, just used to the typical curly coat pony.


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