# Using stallions with the wrong temperament



## Pipkin (13 May 2011)

What`s everyones opinions on using a stallion with a temperament considered by others as nasty and dangerous?

Have spoken to my boys breeder who said her stallion was considered nasty and dangerous by everyone but her. Am a bit annoyed/upset, have been thinking my boys a rig because of the way he is but apparently he was cut properly and he just has his sire`s temper....geeee thanks


----------



## magic104 (14 May 2011)

Ayla84 said:



			What`s everyones opinions on using a stallion with a temperament considered by others as nasty and dangerous?

Have spoken to my boys breeder who said her stallion was considered nasty and dangerous by everyone but her. Am a bit annoyed/upset, have been thinking my boys a rig because of the way he is but apparently he was cut properly and he just has his sire`s temper....geeee thanks 

Click to expand...

Wouldnt touch it & wouldnt need to as there are enough decent ones to choose from.  There is a difference between sharp & nasty.  Nasty temperments can be man made, so the breeding needs to be looked at more closely.  No one needs to take the risk though what is the point, as already said there are enough decent stallions to pick from.


----------



## Enfys (14 May 2011)

I wouldn't stand or use one personally, but I've worked with plenty of stallions that were holy terrors, and, on the other hand, plenty that weren't.

Many years ago down in East Devon there was a stallion who had a reputation for his volatile temperament.

He was, despite this, extremely popular as he threw tremendously talented stock, I handled many of them and the ones I knew were, ummm, quirky, shall we say? 

Hmmm, Catch 22 isn't it?  
Statistically progeny have a 50/50 chance of inheriting _any_ traits I presume, (potential) talent versus temperament.


----------



## cruiseline (14 May 2011)

There are enough wonderful stallion around who do have good temperaments, so I would not touch one that was nasty........................


----------



## Simsar (14 May 2011)

Our nasty went to the kennels!


----------



## JanetGeorge (14 May 2011)

Temperament is at the very top of my list where stallion traits are concerned - but I am careful about other people's opinions!  When I first bought my lovely boy 9 years ago, someone told me that he was 'known to be nasty'!!  Thankfully, I'd met him and handled him and KNEW that was total bo**ocks - and 9 years on I know it even better and doubt there is a stallion in the world with a better temperament!!  And I've backed and handled enough of his youngstock to know that he passes it on - whatever the mare!

But I do have a youngster here for rebacking who is by a stallion reputed to be sharp and difficult!  The youngster is VERY sharp and difficult - but how much is due to the stallion - and how much is due to the botched 1st backing at another yard - I can't determine!

If a stallion IS sharp/quirky - and throws these traits - then it is even MORE important that they are handled right from day 1!!


----------



## toffeesmarty (14 May 2011)

When we visited a well known stud there was only one which had a full grid across his stable door of 10+ stallions. 
Despite being encouraged to use him - stud owner said he was the better of the two I was considering - the need for the grill put me off completely! For me, temperament is the most important ingredient.


----------



## JanetGeorge (14 May 2011)

toffeesmarty said:



			When we visited a well known stud there was only one which had a full grid across his stable door of 10+ stallions. 
Despite being encouraged to use him - stud owner said he was the better of the two I was considering - the need for the grill put me off completely! For me, temperament is the most important ingredient.
		
Click to expand...

A grill doesn't necessarily mean bad temperament - my big boy has one because otherwise he just walks through the door (he's BIG!)  And he only does that so he can get to the food supplies!

The REAL test is to see if they'll let you go into the stable without putting a Chifney on the stallion first!  I take people into my boy without even putting a headcollar on him - and a couple of times have legged a visitor's child onto him the same way!


----------



## ritajennings (14 May 2011)

Temperament would be at the top of my list, I bred quite a few foals myself and worked with several stallions before I stood my own all were very well mannered, they still had the presents and wow factor but knew who was in charge.
The likes of Banks Fee Daniel, Snowford Bellman, Happy Ending Winmaur Sergent Pepper all Reg Irish draught, Sykes and Birthright both TB were stood and owned by Maggie Spreckley-Dollard where I worked on and off for 25 years, every single one of the above mentioned stallions behaved very well and I was happy to us them at one time or other but I am always amazed by peoples reactions to stallions with many liking a entire to be 'hot', I am sorry but a stallion has to have presents and most do and just because  a Stallion is well mannered and knows how to behave to be branded too quite is a shame.
One thing is for sure take everything you hear about a Stallion with a pinch of salt if you cannot see a stallion up close in person try and speak to someone who has, never take gossip as gospel, many stallions out there do not deserve the  bad reputation like Janets Raj, I also had heard he was a handful many years ago and have since meet him an he is a darling, but this does work the other way with stallions getting a good reputation when they are very naughty boys indeed.


----------



## Pipkin (14 May 2011)

ritajennings said:



			Temperament would be at the top of my list, I bred quite a few foals myself and worked with several stallions before I stood my own all were very well mannered, they still had the presents and wow factor but knew who was in charge.
The likes of Banks Fee Daniel, Snowford Bellman, Happy Ending Winmaur Sergent Pepper all Reg Irish draught, Sykes and Birthright both TB were stood and owned by Maggie Spreckley-Dollard where I worked on and off for 25 years, every single one of the above mentioned stallions behaved very well and I was happy to us them at one time or other but I am always amazed by peoples reactions to stallions with many liking a entire to be 'hot', I am sorry but a stallion has to have presents and most do and just because  a Stallion is well mannered and knows how to behave to be branded too quite is a shame.
One thing is for sure take everything you hear about a Stallion with a pinch of salt if you cannot see a stallion up close in person try and speak to someone who has, never take gossip as gospel, many stallions out there do not deserve the  bad reputation like Janets Raj, I also had heard he was a handful many years ago and have since meet him an he is a darling, but this does work the other way with stallions getting a good reputation when they are very naughty boys indeed.
		
Click to expand...

Well it was the stallion and stud owner who has said he was nasty...i think its irresponsible to openly know a stallion was dangerous and then breed from it....


----------



## jcwh (14 May 2011)

OP: is it NASTY behaviour or SHARP behaviour? because for me, nasty = never breed from it. but sharp temperaments can sometimes follow very ttalented horses, mostly professional horses but they are talented nonetheless.
hickstead, ratina z, jazz, they all have sharp temperaments. but they are/were at the top of their game.

i would breed from a sharp horse provided everything compliments stallion and mare. but nasty? never.


----------



## Vickijay (14 May 2011)

Ive met one stallion with a nasty temprement. In the stable he was tied up on about 2" of rope, you couldnt go near the biting end! He came out of stable on lunge line and as soon as out was rearing and striking out at his handler. Didnt even consider him due to that. 

There are so many nice natured stallions out there I dont know why you would even chance it. Part of it for me is choosing a stallion that I think that I could get on and ride and handle.

3 of the nicest behaved stallions I have met were Legrande, Future Illusion and Wish upon a star (I was invited to go ride him  but )


----------



## Pipkin (14 May 2011)

jcwh said:



			OP: is it NASTY behaviour or SHARP behaviour? because for me, nasty = never breed from it. but sharp temperaments can sometimes follow very ttalented horses, mostly professional horses but they are talented nonetheless.
hickstead, ratina z, jazz, they all have sharp temperaments. but they are/were at the top of their game.

i would breed from a sharp horse provided everything compliments stallion and mare. but nasty? never.
		
Click to expand...

He sounds a lot like the horse mentioned above, he strikes out when rears and has a nasty bite (farriers helper nearly had a heart attack yesterday lol)
well owner said nasty and dangerous, and my boy is nasty he lunges for you will rear unless he has a dually on and could quite easily have caused my farrier some damage yesterday...he came right for a while but has gone back to old ways almost over night, he`s not so bad with me I can read him like a book and know when he is going to go up, spin or try take your head off   He may only be my fourth youngster to own but I`ve handled alot of other peoples youngsters and he is most definitely not normal..if you go to look over his door in the morning he will more often than not come flying towards you ears back....am at my wits end to be honest...was all set to have him blood tested but now apparently he has been cut properly and just has dads traits....could never sell him on like this, no matter how nasty I wouldnt want him passed on all the time.
Am just shocked how the stud owner can laugh about it and think it`s funny


----------



## JoBird (14 May 2011)

All I know is my filly was a terrible biter and had far too much attitude.  She would bite everyone (me included) and the farrier which wasnt helpful.  She is 3 now and I have since found out her sire was a biter too! I would be a lot more cautious now when choosing a stallion to ask the right questions ...


----------



## ElleSkywalker (14 May 2011)

Temperament & conformation have always been top of my list! I wouldn't mind a sharp stallion if I were wanting to breed and event type, but nasty, never!

There are enough talented but good natured stallions out there to risk the 50% chance of getting an equally 'difficult' foal.  

If we as mare owners were to breed from a nasty mare would we not be slated for doing it?   

I did read with interest in this weeks H&H that a welsh study had found that 34% of stallions looked at in the study had poor confirmation & temperament, against only 5% of  mares having poor conf & temperament, interesting!

I know this is only a snapshot but as a mare owner I get sick of defending my discisson (sp) to breed from my mares constantly, I have thought long & hard about using my mares, but this study suggests that there are stallion owners out there who have not done the same, leading to situations like OP's where they now have a horse who is difficult to deal with and that they are too responsible to sell.  I would be upset at the stallion owner thinking its funny too!!

Would like to add however that the stallion owners on here are great, I love the fact that they are honest about their boys and that they are happy to share their knowledge with us (much) less experianced folks


----------



## AMH (14 May 2011)

Conformation is the first thing I look at. If it's poorly conformed or not a suitable match for my mare, then it's a no go.

BUT, once I've decided that's right, temperament is next. I breed horses I would like to own and ride myself, and I wouldn't want a b****** on my yard!

Having said that, it's important to distinguish between temperament faults and a stallion being a stallion. I would forgive a stallion some quirky behaviour, just as I would a mare, to a certain extent. Also, there are some people who stand stallions who just don't seem to know how to handle them, and that's not the stallion's fault.

And someone mentioned a stallion in East Devon... I think I know which one you mean, and his reputation was legendary! The adverts for the offspring in the local papers were always interestingly worded.


----------



## Blacklist (14 May 2011)

Ayla84 said:



			What`s everyones opinions on using a stallion with a temperament considered by others as nasty and dangerous?

Have spoken to my boys breeder who said her stallion was considered nasty and dangerous by everyone but her. Am a bit annoyed/upset, have been thinking my boys a rig because of the way he is but apparently he was cut properly and he just has his sire`s temper....geeee thanks [/QUO

There is a lot of crap talked about temperaments look at the many examples of bad tempered horses which had good tempered parents and also the opposite. However there are execeptions to the rule. 

All stallions used for natural covering can be a bit edgy during the covering season when normally they are pussycats - hormones.

In our experience on the whole temperaments are made not bred.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## welshsporthorse (14 May 2011)

We have stood many stallions here over the years our own and other peoples and without exception they were good natured and on the whole gentlemen to handle by a totally female staff. In fact most of them  we could offer a ride on if the mare owner was competent.  A lot of poor behaviour is that and not bad temperament on the whole. We have been lucky to aquire stallions over the years that have not generally been put on a " stallion" pedestal and treated differently. They were bought up properly to have manners and behave. We also have a policy of turning out the boys daily come rain or shine, summer and winter. This helps a lot . We have secure paddocks and can leave an empty field between each stallion. Most of the stallions we have owned since young.  The welsh cob stallion owners are sometimes daft in their management  of stallions, locking them in to get them fat, and full of fire, but often with turnout they revert to normal. There has been the odd downright nasty stallion that I have come accross and Im afraid my attitude is that it should be in a can. I agree that sharp sometimes equals talent but downright nasty is just dangerous.  Stallions never forget unfair behaviour towards them and will always get you back one day, so the skill is in their handling really.  Mind you I have come across some pretty nasty masres in my lifetime and these I certainly wouldnt breed from as I think they have even more influence on their offspring.


----------



## Pipkin (14 May 2011)

Blacklist said:



			There is a lot of crap talked about temperaments look at the many examples of bad tempered horses which had good tempered parents and also the opposite. However there are execeptions to the rule. 

All stallions used for natural covering can be a bit edgy during the covering season when normally they are pussycats - hormones.

In our experience on the whole temperaments are made not bred.
		
Click to expand...

In a way i get what your saying but in all the time I`ve had my boy he`s been handled the way he should, he`s not bullied he`s not pushed do something, time has been taken with him, if he`s in the wrong then yes i`m firm with him. Yeah ok he is not kept with girls but thats out of a safety issue, had enough of bringing one of the mares in covered in nasty bite marks, constantly being mounted and pushed around. He is stabled next to them and all can see each other when turned out are just in different fields.
The dam is also opinionated so I just thought all the bad points had indeed rubbed off on him...


----------



## koeffee (14 May 2011)

wouldnt dream of using a stallion with an iffy temerament, my 3yro son helps me around the yard and comes in both my boy boxes, mouse puts his head down for cuddles and nose pulls and lou comes for scratches i trust both, neither bite, kick, hack out like best mates, stabled so they can say hello and kiss each other and turned out daily!!! not together!!


----------



## madlady (14 May 2011)

I wouldn't use a stallion with a bad temperament and I think it is irresponsible of the stallion owner to breed from something that bad.  Even if a stallion produces very talented offspring what is the point if they are dangerous to deal with?

I have a 2yo colt who will be staying entire until next year at least - next year he will be graded, if he doesn't get a good linear score then he will be gelded but he would have been gelded long before now no matter how good I think he is if he didn't have a good temperament.


----------



## Blacklist (14 May 2011)

Ayla84 said:



			In a way i get what your saying but in all the time I`ve had my boy he`s been handled the way he should, he`s not bullied he`s not pushed do something, time has been taken with him, if he`s in the wrong then yes i`m firm with him. Yeah ok he is not kept with girls but thats out of a safety issue, had enough of bringing one of the mares in covered in nasty bite marks, constantly being mounted and pushed around. He is stabled next to them and all can see each other when turned out are just in different fields.
The dam is also opinionated so I just thought all the bad points had indeed rubbed off on him...
		
Click to expand...

Our TB stallions are stabled next to mares they see everything and are exercised daily. The only thing we do is not to let them see each other covering as jealousy may prevail.


----------



## Enfys (14 May 2011)

AMH said:



			And someone mentioned a stallion in East Devon... I think I know which one you mean, and his reputation was legendary! The adverts for the offspring in the local papers were always interestingly worded.
		
Click to expand...

Honiton area?


----------



## elijahasgal (14 May 2011)

Me when I choose a stallion, if at all possible, I like to see offspring. Hard sometimes as I also tend on budget to use younger stallions in their first couple of seasons...
I have to really like the stallion, If I found out that the breeder was stallion with a dodgy temprement, I would walk away from ever having any buisness in future.
That said I used a stallion its owners were scared of, but looking at the horse (He was from a line that was known to bite) and considering how he was kept (Barely coming out of the stable, not working, and so being very bouncy when he did) and meeting some of his youngstock, I used him. They were all real nice people, and talented, and i tried hard as babies to nip the nips in the bud, and its worked


----------



## magic104 (14 May 2011)

Blacklist said:





Ayla84 said:



			In our experience on the whole temperaments are made not bred.
		
Click to expand...

 Blacklist that is very true, but it is not worth the risk without looking further into the background/breeding.  The best working dogs are generally those that come from parents with proven records.  Aggression can be encouraged from breeding with animals that have that trait.  I dont think I am incorrect in stating aggression can be inherited.  Some dogs can be beaten & still they want to be friends, others will turn.  What is that if not a temperment trait?  The dog that turns, may well have had a nicer temperment if treated well from the start, but its temperment was not strong enough to overcome poor treatment.  Same with horses some are just so tolerant of bad handling & others have 0 tolerance.  If you have 2 animals with the same low tolerance, then I would think you have just increased the risk in their offspring.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## JanetGeorge (14 May 2011)

Ayla84 said:



			has dads traits....could never sell him on like this, no matter how nasty I wouldnt want him passed on all the time.
Am just shocked how the stud owner can laugh about it and think it`s funny
		
Click to expand...

I accidentally bred one like that - but it was the mare who was more of a problem than the stallion, I think.  She was a TB by a stallion I've since heard (although not on GREAT authority) had an 'iffy' temperament!  She was as sharp as a razor - though not nasty!  I bred one foal from her by a coloured sport horse who appeared to have an excellent temperament, and 3 more by Raj.  The coloured was a BEAST from the day he left the womb - I've never known a foal start biting so young!  He only 'behaved' for a couple of weeks in his life: for 3 weeks after he was gelded he was rather subdued  - and he had a bout of impaction colic duing which he was actually nice!  We persevered with him for 4 years and then he developed an obscure lameness issue which appeared to be a hip problem.  Vets weren't optimistic about the prognosis - which made me feel better about having him PTS - I could never have sold him!  The mare's next 3 foals were MUCH nicer - although still a lot sharper than Raj's youngsters usually are.

The 2nd foal we sold unbacked and he is still with the same owner (an experienced person.)  He has his moments - but is generally very good.  We're currently backing the 3rd (a filly) and she is sharp-ish - but a nice person, and the 4th (also a filly) is still in the field.  Again, she's perfectly nice!


----------



## a kind of magic (14 May 2011)

My boy (although he is young) has one foal on the ground and is so quiet and trainable that everyone (vets included if it is not our usual vet) thinks he is a gelding.  I never bought him with the intention to breed but his temperament was the clincher for me.

He lives out 24/7 with two geldings for company although he is happily stabled and he is very trainable.  Leads out in a dually halter, is being started under saddle in a western sidepull and snaffle.  I was thinking of putting him in something different bridlewise for covering so that he continues to associate the dually and snaffle with work. 

Temperament to me is probably the most important thing!


----------



## Blacklist (15 May 2011)

magic104 said:





Blacklist said:



			Blacklist that is very true, but it is not worth the risk without looking further into the background/breeding.  The best working dogs are generally those that come from parents with proven records.  Aggression can be encouraged from breeding with animals that have that trait.  I dont think I am incorrect in stating aggression can be inherited.  Some dogs can be beaten & still they want to be friends, others will turn.  What is that if not a temperment trait?  The dog that turns, may well have had a nicer temperment if treated well from the start, but its temperment was not strong enough to overcome poor treatment.  Same with horses some are just so tolerant of bad handling & others have 0 tolerance.  If you have 2 animals with the same low tolerance, then I would think you have just increased the risk in their offspring.
		
Click to expand...

I know horses which have parents which have temperaments to die for but because their offspring have been badly managed or cruelly treated have become bad tempered. 

Any animal can turn when ill treated and all animals have this capability if pushed. Magic if you were ill treated would you turn? I would but and I don't have a bad tempered trait (i think!!!)

I have discussed this with my Father in his experience he agrees with me after breeding and handling horses for some fifty odd years.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## luckilotti (15 May 2011)

I get the impression there are more than some may realise that have the 'wrong temperaments' out there.  I know that the majority of stallions are owned by responsible owners but....
when i was looking at stallions to buy (a search that lasted 4 years) the amount i enquired about that were described as 'temperamental' - upon further enquires it turned out that these were the types that were stabled 24/7, with grills on their doors, who you had to take a whip in with you otherwise they would bite (in one case rear) at you!  I didnt care what their breeding may be, or how 'pretty' they may be - they shouldnt have been kept entire IMO. 

I do also have a breeder friend who used to have such a stallion when i was a teenager.  Haylage was shoved through the doorway, water topped up by the hose through the grill, a big clean out every now and then when he was herded out into another pen.  It was a very sad life for him    what happened to him - he get himself that stressed (as usual) and gave himself a big heart attack and that was the end of him.  His temperment didnt seem to be passed on as i assume he was like he was due to something in his past but if i was a mare owner, i certainly wouldnt have considered him based on how he would have been at viewing.  Now if you could get him out in a sand paddock, he moved like a dream... try and put a rider on him, he would be adamant to get them off - rear, buck and roll!

Its the above which makes it so valuable to view stallions in as many circumstances as possible - had this stallion have been available via AI.. with a nice video of him moving freely in the school - i could have seen quite a few using him from a distance not knowing the real him....


----------



## Blacklist (15 May 2011)

luckilotti said:



			I get the impression there are more than some may realise that have the 'wrong temperaments' out there.  I know that the majority of stallions are owned by responsible owners but....
when i was looking at stallions to buy (a search that lasted 4 years) the amount i enquired about that were described as 'temperamental' - upon further enquires it turned out that these were the types that were stabled 24/7, with grills on their doors, who you had to take a whip in with you otherwise they would bite (in one case rear) at you!  I didnt care what their breeding may be, or how 'pretty' they may be - they shouldnt have been kept entire IMO. 

I do also have a breeder friend who used to have such a stallion when i was a teenager.  Haylage was shoved through the doorway, water topped up by the hose through the grill, a big clean out every now and then when he was herded out into another pen.  It was a very sad life for him    what happened to him - he get himself that stressed (as usual) and gave himself a big heart attack and that was the end of him.  His temperment didnt seem to be passed on as i assume he was like he was due to something in his past but if i was a mare owner, i certainly wouldnt have considered him based on how he would have been at viewing.  Now if you could get him out in a sand paddock, he moved like a dream... try and put a rider on him, he would be adamant to get them off - rear, buck and roll!

Its the above which makes it so valuable to view stallions in as many circumstances as possible - had this stallion have been available via AI.. with a nice video of him moving freely in the school - i could have seen quite a few using him from a distance not knowing the real him....
		
Click to expand...

Hence temperaments are made not born, circumstances play a big part. 

Also in IMO nowadays people are not as competent in their handling of temperamental horses.


----------



## magic104 (15 May 2011)

Blacklist said:





magic104 said:



			I know horses which have parents which have temperaments to die for but because their offspring have been badly managed or cruelly treated have become bad tempered. 

Any animal can turn when ill treated and all animals have this capability if pushed. Magic if you were ill treated would you turn? I would but and I don't have a bad tempered trait (i think!!!)

I have discussed this with my Father in his experience he agrees with me after breeding and handling horses for some fifty odd years.
		
Click to expand...

Of course horses are on the whole not born difficult after all they are a herd animal so have to work as a team to survive.  My point is that some lack the tolerance of others hence some can happily work in a riding school teaching & others cant.  Some are driven by pain that is ignored or bad handling.  That is why I stated you need to look into the breeding.  Temperment (higher/lower tolerance levels) I do believe is down to breeding.  If you want to reinforce the retrieving attributes of a dog you breed from dogs that show that.  If you want to increase its guarding instinct you breed from dogs that have that attribute.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## TarrSteps (15 May 2011)

It's not even that straightforward a question - a "good" temperament for a pet is not necessarily a trainable temperament for a competitor.  I think that gets lost sometimes in analysis of stallion testing - people not familiar with the system think a good temperament mark means the stallion is one step up from a beach donkey, when it really means he's a good worker.

And a pleasant temperament is definitely a product of an environment but the key word above is "tolerance".  There are definitely inclinations and patterns that run in families.  They key is to know what you can and can't manage.  Personally, I think life is too short and there are too many good stallions now to put up with c**p but I also realise if the goal is top level athletes, the horses may not be the easiest for the average rider.

Complicated by the fact that within families of horses, it's common for a number of them to end up in the same program, so conformity in that group may say more about the program than the horses.  If all of a stallion's owner's progeny is wonderful but everything else on the ground isn't, that still might put me off a stallion because it suggests he either needs VERY careful mare choices or his offspring are not very tolerant of life in the real world.

Technically, I don't think I'd breed to a horse with a particular temperament, as much as certain characteristics - more within a family than in the individual - would put me off.  I've worked for a great many breeders and now followed families of horses - you do start to see patterns emerge.  One family, a great many of them "stood up" under pressure.  Another had a tendency to chuck themselves on the floor - a pretty rare response!  

And I knew one mare you produced ONLY insane kids.  Really, dangerously bonkers and not necessarily in immediately obvious ways.  She was part of a big breeding program so it wasn't a case of the management her foals got, as the other 20 odd they produced a year were not mad.  (That said, I knew another mare who produced "lunatics" and it was completely down to her owner and their early handling.)  That experience made me much more careful.  I doubt you'd see the same sort of effect from a stallion (although I know lines I'd not want, given the choice) but it does bare thinking about.

As to why people use stallions that seem to produce an undesirable temperament . . . why do people do anything bizarre?  :rollseys:


----------



## JanetGeorge (15 May 2011)

TarrSteps said:



			Complicated by the fact that within families of horses, it's common for a number of them to end up in the same program, so conformity in that group may say more about the program than the horses.  If all of a stallion's owner's progeny is wonderful but everything else on the ground isn't, that still might put me off a stallion because it suggests he either needs VERY careful mare choices or his offspring are not very tolerant of life in the real world.
>
>
 And I knew one mare you produced ONLY insane kids.  Really, dangerously bonkers and not necessarily in immediately obvious ways.  She was part of a big breeding program so it wasn't a case of the management her foals got, as the other 20 odd they produced a year were not mad.
		
Click to expand...

That's very true!  My own stallion's offspring (bred by me) have amazingly good temperaments - which MIGHT be just the way we bring them up.  But the number of people who use him and comment on how much 'easier' his foals are than others they have bred by other stallions makes me think it's certainly not JUST upbringing (although that helps of course!)

So if good, trainable temperament is inherited (and I'm absolutely sure it is) then certainly 'hot', 'difficult' - or just plain nasty can also be inherited!

I knew one racing stallion in Australia had a VERY bad reputation for temperament!  Over the 18 months I worked for a particular trainer 4 by this stallion came in for training.  All bred at different studs - and came in as 2 year olds.  ALL were bonkers or just plain nasty - one particular colt I declined to look after (and he was the only horse on an 80 box yard that worried me!)  He was downright aggressive!  The fillies were just barmy!  I remember an owner complaining they'd had a vet's bill for a filly called 'gone beserk' - and they didn't HAVE a filly called 'gone beserk'.  I had to explain that was the 'diagnosis' - not the name of the filly!  (But it would have been a very suitable name for her!)

I looked after another (old) TB stallion in Australia who had come over from NZ with a VERY bad reputation - rumour had it he had actually killed a stud groom (and I'd believe it!)  But in his case it was almost certainly the result of abuse - I found a set of scars on the top of his rump that could ONLY have been caused by someone stabbing a 3-prong pitchfork into him - several times - from above (so they weren't defensive wounds as MIGHT have been the case if they'd been in his chest/neck!)  You COULDN'T much out the box with him close enough to SEE a pitchfork - or anything that resembled one!


----------



## pintoarabian (15 May 2011)

I would never choose a stallion with a suspect temperament for breeding. Conformation and temperament are at the top of my list every time. There can be no pleasure in owning a horse that you cannot trust. We have our own stallions and they are stabled together in a barn where they can socialise and touch their neighbours. They all have the temperaments of soppy labradors, love human contact and would stand to be groomed for hours. One would lick you to death. Strangely, their foals have all inherited the same temperaments.


----------



## toffeesmarty (15 May 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			A grill doesn't necessarily mean bad temperament - my big boy has one because otherwise he just walks through the door (he's BIG!)  And he only does that so he can get to the food supplies!

The REAL test is to see if they'll let you go into the stable without putting a Chifney on the stallion first!  I take people into my boy without even putting a headcollar on him - and a couple of times have legged a visitor's child onto him the same way!

Click to expand...

Only just seen this Janet:
I understand your point Janet, but the stallion in question not only had a grill but when taken outside his stable was the only one we were 'asked to stand back to give him room' and we wrent allowed to stroke him. 

However, I have photos of us inside the stable with the stallion we chose who hasn't got a headcollar on and his door was left open. He is a teady bear!

Regarding the other issues being raised - are we dipping our toes into the nature v nurture debate?


----------



## JanetGeorge (15 May 2011)

toffeesmarty said:



			Only just seen this Janet:
I understand your point Janet, but the stallion in question not only had a grill but when taken outside his stable was the only one we were 'asked to stand back to give him room' and we wrent allowed to stroke him. 

However, I have photos of us inside the stable with the stallion we chose who hasn't got a headcollar on and his door was left open. He is a teady bear!

Regarding the other issues being raised - are we dipping our toes into the nature v nurture debate?
		
Click to expand...

You're right - 'stand back and give him room' means the bu**er will kick you into the middle of next week - and if you can't stroke him, it's because you'd likely lose an arm!

Nature and nurture definitely work together!  A horse is born with a certain type of temperament and from the moment it hits the ground, external influences come into play that will be either positive or negative!  I could bore you with HUNDREDS of examples, but I'll limit myself to just one.

Just occasionally, we miss a foaling!  Mare foals early in the field, or whatever!  Foals by the same stallion and out of similar types of mares.  IF I am at the birth, I can guarantee that at 2 hours old the foal will walk up to me and happily allow me to do almost anything with it.  If I find it AT 2 hours old - it will take at LEAST several days to get it to the same point of 'tameness'.  I believe foals are born with NO instinctive fear - it develops as the foal starts 'functioning'!  And - inevitably - the more 'good' handling a foal gets in the first few DAYS of its life, the easier it is to handle and back for the rest of its life (unless - of course- something ghastly happens to destroy the trust built in those first few hours!)


----------



## magic104 (15 May 2011)

toffeesmarty said:



			Regarding the other issues being raised - are we dipping our toes into the nature v nurture debate?
		
Click to expand...

You cant not, as both contribute to the final outcome.  One of my colts was sold last year (rising 3), because of his laid back temperment, which both parents have he got left entire.  Not once did he behave coltish & he was never a problem to handle ever.  His dam kept him in place out in the paddock & we treated him like normal.  The people who bought him sold him on a few months later after gelding him.  His new owner started him & started having problems when long reining.  She did not know if he was being naughty, but I told her he had never put a foot wrong & was the easiest horse to deal with.  Further investigation found he had a wolf tooth that had broken.  Once removed he was fine & as those that have read the post & seen the pics he accured 29 BD points in Mar from 7 classes.  The older boy, different breeding both parents I would say have good temperments but more sensitive types, is himself more sensitive to deal with.  He was far more colty to deal with while we were waiting for him to drop & in the end went in for an opp.  Once cut he was much easier to handle & on the whole has taken to his work well.  He does not take being bullied, he has to be allowed to work things out.  Giz will stand & be sprayed with fly repelant, Prince will dance round you.  If you shout he just gets himself in a tizz.  Giz's outlook is "Whatever", Prince is "Are you sure?", both have had the same handling.  I have heard that the sire of Prince's dam was "Hot".  Sas had manners to burn, but was sensitive & that has passed on.  

If traits like temperment, work ethic, jumping ability, movement werent passed on, then why do so many of us waste our time looking at blood lines?


----------



## Avonbrook (15 May 2011)

magic104 said:



			If traits like temperment, work ethic, jumping ability, movement werent passed on, then why do so many of us waste our time looking at blood lines?
		
Click to expand...

In a nutshell


----------



## Blacklist (16 May 2011)

toffeesmarty said:



			Only just seen this Janet:
I understand your point Janet, but the stallion in question not only had a grill but when taken outside his stable was the only one we were 'asked to stand back to give him room' and we wrent allowed to stroke him. 

However, I have photos of us inside the stable with the stallion we chose who hasn't got a headcollar on and his door was left open. He is a teady bear!

Regarding the other issues being raised - are we dipping our toes into the nature v nurture debate?
		
Click to expand...

With the current climate of liability I can fully understand why you were told to give the stallion room especially if you saw the stallion during the covering season. Horses can be unpredictable during the breeding season and you can find uncharacteristic behavour during this period. ie nibbling etc it is called hormones. 

A grill up at at stallions door means bugger all, if other horses are being led by the stable it can be a good precaution but not left up all the time.


----------



## prosoup (16 May 2011)

i agree that all horses can be unpredictable, but i would not use one that is "nasty", the same as i would not breed from a mare who is "nasty".  temperament is a heritable trait in all animals.

i also agree with the others who make a distinction between nasty and sharp - there has to be some degree of sharpness and reactiveness for a horse to have that x factor.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (16 May 2011)

I have a mare that has the 'wrong' temperament. She is not nasty, infact she is quite sweet but she is so nervous and is worried most of the time. I don't know if this is nature or nurture, nothing bad has happened to her while I've owned her, but she was seven when I first met her. Unfortunately her temperament has also restricted her ridden career. I can imagine that even if I bred her to the best tempered stallion on the planet, that she would probably teach the foal to be wary of everything.

My filly's parents were both calm, confident and forward thinking types and so is she. She was also well handled from birth and the contrast of how she reacts to new things (compared to my mare) is large.


----------



## Blacklist (16 May 2011)

prosoup said:



			i agree that all horses can be unpredictable, but i would not use one that is "nasty", the same as i would not breed from a mare who is "nasty".  temperament is a heritable trait in all animals.

i also agree with the others who make a distinction between nasty and sharp - there has to be some degree of sharpness and reactiveness for a horse to have that x factor.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with you. Some stallions can be sharp during the breeding season (TB's especially). 

My point is that you can't blame stallion owners for asking visitors to keep their distance - just in case, especially with the current fashion of 'liability' claims. Even the quietist of stallions can fling a leg out if they are testosteroned up! or even give a little nip - to me this does not always indicate that they are nasty, just sexed up.


----------



## Blacklist (16 May 2011)

If some of what I have read on this thread is correct (not) then many of the great HIS TB Stallions of yesteryear would have been considered nasty (nowadays) going by the videos I have seen of the HIS stallion shows at Newmarket from the 60's onwards - rearing up, kicking out very edgy behaviour - to me just stallions been a bit fresh but certainly not nasty. 

The majority of them sired wonderful stock, temperaments and all. 

Please do not misunderstand me I am certainly not advocating breeding from horses with real 'crackers' downright 'nasty' temperaments - but nurture, situation, circumstances and time of year can play a big part in how a stallion behaves.

In horse breeding there ar no RULES


----------



## TarrSteps (16 May 2011)

Faracat said:



			I have a mare that has the 'wrong' temperament. She is not nasty, infact she is quite sweet but she is so nervous and is worried most of the time. I don't know if this is nature or nurture, nothing bad has happened to her while I've owned her, but she was seven when I first met her. Unfortunately her temperament has also restricted her ridden career. I can imagine that even if I bred her to the best tempered stallion on the planet, that she would probably teach the foal to be wary of everything.

My filly's parents were both calm, confident and forward thinking types and so is she. She was also well handled from birth and the contrast of how she reacts to new things (compared to my mare) is large.
		
Click to expand...

I have a gelding with a similar outlook - I've known him his whole life and I know he's always been treated with patience and understanding.  I also know his dam and all his brothers (by different stalions), all of whom stayed with the breeder until backing age + - they are all very easy going, trainable temperaments.  But the gelding in question is by a stallion with a reputation for throwing "not amateur friendly" horses, which is a shame because he was bought by the stud that stands him for specifically that purpose!  (He's coloured and the idea was to breed upper level capable coloured horses that would appeal to the amateur market.)  Everyone I've ever talked to who knows his offspring has the same low opinion of their trainability and tolerance although some of the non-coloured ones have gone on to do well with professionals.  They are sweet horses and they mean well but EVERYTHING is a drama and it's very difficult to harness their potential and, because they are so inclined to silliness, keep them sound.  

On the subject of the old style TB stallions - to be fair, it's not like there were many options.  I wouldn't consider horses jumping around a bit in a performance situation, particularly if they don't get out much and with other stallions about, to be particularly indicative of a "bad" temperament but there are certainly "old style" Tb lines known for producing "complicated" horses. most notably St Simon.  (I had a St Simon bred event horse and when I researched his family some of his "quirks" turned out to be family traits.  He was a fabulous competition horse but could be very difficult to manage and a lot of people would simply have not put up with it or would not have been able to protect him from himself.)  Some of these have virtually died out, in part, I suspect, because even racehorse people have their limits and if the complications mean the horses don't run, they won't be having it.  

Breeding isn't just about individuals - not every horse expresses all its genetics - it's about trends and patterns.  Obviously people make different choices but it's surprising, when you look at the big picture, how may horses that get into trouble are actually predictable products of their breeding, maybe not in being "bad" but in their suitability or lack thereof for certain tasks and ways of life.


----------



## Blacklist (17 May 2011)

One of the many good things about the thoroughbred is that you can trace the pedigree back as TarrSteps did when tracing her horse back to St.Simon - this can't be said for many other breeds as on the whole they are of mixed breeding and their studs books do not go back that far.


----------



## Avonbrook (17 May 2011)

Out of general interest, which ones?

I'm no great expert and I just haven't looked for many of the different breeds but Arabians can be traced back at least to the original imports and the Welsh Section B we have also traces right back with no gaps.  People who are far more knowledgable than I am regarding Welsh Pony breeding have made a very good stab at her type, temperament and abilities based on looking at her bloodlines alone.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (17 May 2011)

But the gelding in question is by a stallion with a reputation for throwing "not amateur friendly" horses, which is a shame because he was bought by the stud that stands him for specifically that purpose!
		
Click to expand...

This is interesting.

This is my mare's sire http://www.horseit.com/heritagecoaststud/Vadeer.htm (Vadeer, arabian). Does anyone know if he has a reputation for passing on a certain temperament or is my mare 'special'?  The only other horse that I have met by Vadeer was bolder and more forward thinking than my mare but he was as sharp as a razor.


----------



## Blacklist (17 May 2011)

Avonbrook said:



			Out of general interest, which ones?

I'm no great expert and I just haven't looked for many of the different breeds but Arabians can be traced back at least to the original imports and the Welsh Section B we have also traces right back with no gaps.  People who are far more knowledgable than I am regarding Welsh Pony breeding have made a very good stab at her type, temperament and abilities based on looking at her bloodlines alone.
		
Click to expand...

Forgive my ignorance I was thinking more of the sport horse breeds ie Warmbloods of course I will be shot down!!. Purely out of interest Avonbrook how far do the  Welsh Studbooks go back my father stood a Section D once Cottage Sunbeam or Sunlight I think that is the name.

As I said earlier there are not rules in horse breeding take the TB's a Derby Winner can breed with a classic winning mare and breed a snail  on the track. In fact Shire horses have a very good jump in them and who know is if it was worked on! and they were bred purely for draught work.


----------



## pintoarabian (17 May 2011)

Faracat, I think that here is a good chance that something happened to your mare in her 7 years before she came into your possession that made her the way she is, rather than it being inherited. I have a mare that is similar, a worrier and nervous. I bred her and something did happen to her as a foal that scared her. She got on the wrong side of a fence to her dam and she was on a railway embankment, very distressed. The ensuing pandemonium to get her reunited with her dam and the terror that a train would come made her the way she is now. She is lovely to handle and will do anything you ask but she is still very wary of being caught. She is now 23 and we have reached an understanding with her that works for all of us. Once caught, she is compliant and well behaved but she never loses the look of suspicion in her eye. She has bred 5 foals and each of them is as people friendly as they come, mainly because we handle them from the minute they are born. She is very happy for us to do what we want with them. Neither her sire, dam or full sister are anything like her. I can say with 100% confidence that her problems are nurture not nature. 

IMO horses with bad temperaments are horses that would deliberately inflict injury or that would be dangerous to handle, not horses that are simply sharp. It does help if you know the history of the horse because 'incidents' could well be to blame rather than inherited traits.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (17 May 2011)

She is now 23 and we have reached an understanding with her that works for all of us
		
Click to expand...

I'm in the same position with my girl. I know what she can cope with and she knows that she is OK with me (she's very wary of strangers) and I try to stay in her 'comfort zone'. It can be impossible though. We had a 6 month long epic drama to get her to walk calmly past the field with the scary Alpacas.


----------



## Blacklist (17 May 2011)

[QUOTE

IMO horses with bad temperaments are horses that would deliberately inflict injury or that would be dangerous to handle, not horses that are simply sharp. It does help if you know the history of the horse because 'incidents' could well be to blame rather than inherited traits.[/QUOTE]

Very true


----------



## welshsporthorse (17 May 2011)

I havent read every single post on this thread tonight, but one thing we do need to be careful of now as breeders is the great availability of stallions we have now by chilled and frozen semen which people will use having seen pictures on the internet. We have to rely totally now ( if we dont visit them in the flesh or stallion shows) on the owners being completely honest about their stallions temperaments. All of our stallions bar one over the years have come to us in their twilight years and have not only proved themselves performance wize but have a great number of offspring which can be examined from the point of view of temperament and ease of handling but obviously the individual horses upbringing and handling will have an effect as well.


----------

