# Any types of horse not prone to Laminitis????



## Kazza1 (2 September 2014)

Hello!! I know lami can affect any horse but im wondering since some types of Native breed seem especially prone to it....are there any breeds that are especially not prone to it also???


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## OwnedbyJoe (2 September 2014)

Very fit active ones... 
Sorry. In general, the larger, lighter "hotter blooded" breeds are less prone. Your average TB is less likely to get laminitis than any M&M. That said, Arabs are very good doers and can be lami prone despite being hot blooded.
Warmbloods.


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## NOISYGIRL (2 September 2014)

Mine was about 25 when he had it bout 10 years ago, he was fit and ridden every day not overweight no cushings Arab x cob, vet reckoned it was because we had a wet summer and the grass continually grew like spring grass.  Not had it since touch wood, he is muzzled when turned out


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## twiggy2 (2 September 2014)

all horses are prone but new research is showing different types are prone for different reasons, EMS typically is more common in natives and cob types but cushings is more likely to be the cause for other types-at the moments these are just indicators from fairly early research


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## Regandal (2 September 2014)

Skinny ones, according to a vet I encountered a couple of weeks ago.


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## Kazza1 (2 September 2014)

So do you think Warmbloods are less prone to lami (or the underlying causes) because when developing the dif warmblood breed things like being a good doer or 'thrifty' weren't top of the list of desirable qualities? Whereas in native breed perhaps surviving on little food was a good thing and breed for specifically?? Do you think it's possible these lami prone breed have had these underlying causes (ems/cushings) breed into them as breeders in the past wanted horses that were good doers??? (<if that makes sense!?)


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## fattylumpkin (2 September 2014)

Many native breeds were once working horses who would do a full day's labour, but that has changed.  They gain and retain weight much easier but aren't doing the jobs they were designed for whilst still being fed a rich diet which makes them more prone to sicknesses which can lead to laminitis.  A disposition toward EMS hasn't been 'bred into' natives, they were bred to work hard and don't any more.


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## twiggy2 (2 September 2014)

fattylumpkin said:



			Many native breeds were once working horses who would do a full day's labour, but that has changed.  They gain and retain weight much easier but aren't doing the jobs they were designed for whilst still being fed a rich diet which makes them more prone to sicknesses which can lead to laminitis.  A disposition toward EMS hasn't been 'bred into' natives, they were bred to work hard and don't any more.
		
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this

also don't underestimate how many horses/ponies get lami from concussion/bad shoeing, stress and/or medication-research is now steering towards the idea that being fat alone will not cause lami unless the horse/pony has an underlying condition such as EMS/cushings


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## Kazza1 (2 September 2014)

So would you say that there is no genetic/heredity influence over whether horses develop ems/cushings and then go on to get lami?


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## fattylumpkin (2 September 2014)

Nobody knows that yet, there's all kinds of theories being explored.  The only thing we can do as owners is avoid anything known to increase the risk of our horses becoming laminitic.


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## Wiz201 (2 September 2014)

grass has suddenly started shooting up again with the sugary fresh shoots so our RDA 14.2 cob x who has had laminitus before is sadly starting to show symptoms again. He was off for six months last time so he's been put on bute, some lami medication and kept off the grass. Our 12 hand Welsh sec A has never had it, and never shown symptoms, so its not always good doers.


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## ILuvCowparsely (2 September 2014)

OwnedbyJoe said:



			Very fit active ones... 
Sorry. In general, the larger, lighter "hotter blooded" breeds are less prone. Your average TB is less likely to get laminitis than any M&M. That said, Arabs are very good doers and can be lami prone despite being hot blooded.
Warmbloods.
		
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My mare was very fit in training 6 days a week 16 hh IDXTB, I was worried about my welsh A  but it was my mare of a lifetime who got it . sad ending


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## pinklilly (2 September 2014)

My tb was diagnosed with it age 5, now 7.  He's been tested for EMS and Cushings and both were negative, it's purely diet related.  He can't cope with rye grazing at all, and is managed as an ulcer prone horse, ad lib forage, fast fibre with molasses free alfa a, protexin gut balancer, pro hoof, linseed, salt and rosehip.

Tbs are more prone to mild laminitis than people think IMO.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (2 September 2014)

pinklilly said:



			My tb was diagnosed with it age 5, now 7.  He's been tested for EMS and Cushings and both were negative, it's purely diet related.  He can't cope with rye grazing at all, and is managed as an ulcer prone horse, ad lib forage, fast fibre with molasses free alfa a, protexin gut balancer, pro hoof, linseed, salt and rosehip.

Tbs are more prone to mild laminitis than people think IMO.
		
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TB s stud stallions can get it due to the rich diet and their paddocks are often sown grass species.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (2 September 2014)

In a word......... no.


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## Kazza1 (2 September 2014)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			In a word......... no.
		
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Lol, fair enough. So does anyone know if there has been any research into whether it may be genetic and inherited, i.e. certain bloodlines more susceptible?


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## LadyGascoyne (2 September 2014)

In South Africa it is far, far more scarce than in the UK. I have only heard of two cases in the last five years. One very fat welshie and one llama type with horrific foot conformation, completely upright pasterns an tiny, boxy, nearly club-like feet.

It's got to be the grass. So the type of horse that doesn't get lami... one with a grass allergy?


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## fattylumpkin (3 September 2014)

Kazza1 said:



			Lol, fair enough. So does anyone know if there has been any research into whether it may be genetic and inherited, i.e. certain bloodlines more susceptible?
		
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The cause is still unknown, so it would be impossible to determine whether genetics are a factor.  Genetics don't appear to be a factor however since research has proven that it's possible to induce laminitis in any normal, healthy horse.

I'd say certain types of horse, like natives, are more likely to be kept by their owners in a situation which is likely to trigger an onset of laminitis.  That's not the fault of their breeding, it's due to many owners being ill-informed.


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## leggs (3 September 2014)

this is an interesting read, a aussie study on feral horses foot health, seems about 40-60% of feral horses suffer from chronic laminitis !! https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/items/11-140  you can download the pdf for free.


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## _HP_ (3 September 2014)

In about 90% of cases it's diet related usually due to insulin resistance
I think factors which make horses more prone to laminitis are hereditary but for the most part it's a management thing..I think ponies/natives are more likely to present symptoms because they are more often unshod . Shoes can mask a lot of the early symptoms and so a lot of low grade laminitis in tb's and the like goes unnoticed or mistaken for something else.


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## Wagtail (3 September 2014)

I know four WBs who had the disease. Two of them (including my mare) were PTS because of it. One died of colic. The other is very much with us. He is a trakehner x TB and only 8 years old. So no, I don't think there are any breeds that are less prone to laminitis.


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## Micky (9 September 2014)

As far as I have heard/know, Any horse can develop laminitis, regardless of breed...as has been said, EMS and PPID can be underlying issues that are realised after the horse/pony gets lami...I tend to think the grass over here has been 'managed' too well over the last 40 odd years with fertilisers plus the feed we give them now can be full of sugar and starch, not eonough exercise ( unlike the old days of hacking for a couple of hours or schooling hard, plus hunting a lot).....
Interesting that its not so common abroad in certain countries though


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## Queenbee (10 September 2014)

Regandal said:



			Skinny ones, according to a vet I encountered a couple of weeks ago.
		
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Actually, not entirely true, underweight horses are a significantly higher risk for lami than those of a fit/healthy weight.


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## Tnavas (10 September 2014)

Many TB yearlings have low grade laminitis, we used to give all the yearlings being prepared for the sales Founderguard to reduce the risk of them getting sore. 

Laminitis is a disease of Management, over feed and under exercise and you put your horse at risk.


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## lazybee (12 September 2014)

Arabians!


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## Dry Rot (12 September 2014)

Kazza1 said:



			So would you say that there is no genetic/heredity influence over whether horses develop ems/cushings and then go on to get lami?
		
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Genetics/breeding is a subject that few understand and, when you think you do, it will surely up it's ugly had and kick you firmly in the back side!

I had a very interesting chat with a professional geneticist years ago when I was told, "Everything is genetic". He then aded, "&#8230;of course, an endocrinologist will tell you everything is hormonal!"  A broken leg is not genetic, but a tendency to brittle bones might be. So, yes, I'd say a tendency to Laminitis is genetic&#8230;as is a tendency to getting sweet itch&#8230;or breaking bones. It is the breeder's job to aim to breed from stock that is 100% perfect.

(No Laminitis or sweet itch here yet, touch wood).


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## Tnavas (12 September 2014)

Definitely true and many that have been prepared as yearlings for the sales will have had low grade laminitis, may not have physically been lame but will have had feet damaged by the amount of feed pumped into them


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## Kazza1 (12 September 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			Genetics/breeding is a subject that few understand and, when you think you do, it will surely up it's ugly had and kick you firmly in the back side!

I had a very interesting chat with a professional geneticist years ago when I was told, "Everything is genetic". He then aded, "&#8230;of course, an endocrinologist will tell you everything is hormonal!"  A broken leg is not genetic, but a tendency to brittle bones might be. So, yes, I'd say a tendency to Laminitis is genetic&#8230;as is a tendency to getting sweet itch&#8230;or breaking bones. It is the breeder's job to aim to breed from stock that is 100% perfect.

(No Laminitis or sweet itch here yet, touch wood).
		
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So he would've advised not to breed from horses that have suffered from lami in the past? (im just asking...not planning on breeding anything!!!) You think it likely the offspring would also be likely to suffer from it???


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## Dry Rot (12 September 2014)

Kazza1 said:



			So he would've advised not to breed from horses that have suffered from lami in the past? (im just asking...not planning on breeding anything!!!) You think it likely the offspring would also be likely to suffer from it???
		
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I am saying that if I knew of Laminitis in a line, I would not breed from any close relatives unless there were no alternatives and the individual was exceptional. I would then be watching the progeny with a very critical eye. I sold off several brood mares because they were inclined to put on too much weight and needed persistent dieting. For one thing, I can't be bothered! I don't know if the propensity is inherited but if some breeds are predisposed to the condition (or any other), it does seem likely, doesn't it? All breeds, by definition, are to a certain extent inbred and strains and lines within those breeds more so.


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## Tnavas (12 September 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			I am saying that if I knew of Laminitis in a line, I would not breed from any close relatives unless there were no alternatives and the individual was exceptional. I would then be watching the progeny with a very critical eye. I sold off several brood mares because they were inclined to put on too much weight and needed persistent dieting. For one thing, I can't be bothered! I don't know if the propensity is inherited but if some breeds are predisposed to the condition (or any other), it does seem likely, doesn't it? All breeds, by definition, are to a certain extent inbred and strains and lines within those breeds more so.
		
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As Laminitis is in most cases a disease of POOR Management to me this would be a ridiculous reason for not breeding from a particular mare. There are far more important factors to consider, such as quality of conformation, action, temperament. Personally I would prefer a good doer over a poor doer any day. Not just for economic reasons but it is far easier to feed the right type of feed for the discipline if you are not having to worry about keeping weight on a horse.

ANY horse can come down with Laminitis if the right conditions exist. 

Some horses are more predisposed to Laminitis and not in any particular breed. 

I've had native ponies that have lived out year round and never had laminitis, I've seen TB yearlings with low grade Laminitis because of the quantity of feed being pushed into them to 'Grow them Big' for the Yearling Sales. 

My Clydesdale mare is a fatty and I watch her diet really carefully, she still lives out 24/7 but her paddock has very short grass in it. Yet I have friends with Clydesdales who have to hard feed to keep weight on them.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/More-Insights-Into-Laminitis-Arabian/dp/1446156931 - Research into dealing with Laminitis in  Arabians

http://www.ker.com/library/Proceedings/08/5_Laminitis_p57.pdf - Research by Kentucky Equine Research


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## Wagtail (12 September 2014)

Tnavas said:



			As Laminitis is in most cases a disease of POOR Management to me this would be a ridiculous reason for not breeding from a particular mare. There are far more important factors to consider, such as quality of conformation, action, temperament. Personally I would prefer a good doer over a poor doer any day. Not just for economic reasons but it is far easier to feed the right type of feed for the discipline if you are not having to worry about keeping weight on a horse.

ANY horse can come down with Laminitis if the right conditions exist. 

Some horses are more predisposed to Laminitis and not in any particular breed. 

I've had native ponies that have lived out year round and never had laminitis, I've seen TB yearlings with low grade Laminitis because of the quantity of feed being pushed into them to 'Grow them Big' for the Yearling Sales. 

My Clydesdale mare is a fatty and I watch her diet really carefully, she still lives out 24/7 but her paddock has very short grass in it. Yet I have friends with Clydesdales who have to hard feed to keep weight on them.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/More-Insights-Into-Laminitis-Arabian/dp/1446156931 - Research into dealing with Laminitis in  Arabians

http://www.ker.com/library/Proceedings/08/5_Laminitis_p57.pdf - Research by Kentucky Equine Research
		
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The most recent research into laminitis has shown that at least 90% of cases are due to metabolic issues such as ems or cushings. Purely management issues account for the other 10%.


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## twiggy2 (12 September 2014)

Wagtail said:



			The most recent research into laminitis has shown that at least 90% of cases are due to metabolic issues such as ems or cushings. Purely management issues account for the other 10%.
		
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ems is usually caused by long term management issues


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## Tnavas (12 September 2014)

Wagtail said:



			The most recent research into laminitis has shown that at least 90% of cases are due to metabolic issues such as ems or cushings. Purely management issues account for the other 10%.
		
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Eventually yes - depends on the age and numbers they used in a study

It is a metabolic problem regardless of EMS & Cushings, but EMS is usually a result of long term feeding abuse and Cushings is generally also age relate.

Line up 1000 6yr olds that have had Laminitis and the majority will no doubt have Laminitis from over feeding and under exercising.


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## SO1 (12 September 2014)

There does seem to be a lot more cases of EMS and Cushings and whilst the laminitis might be caused by these conditions what is causing the rise in numbers with EMS?

I think a lot of the problems are caused by the over consumption of Rye grass which is an unnatural grass developed as a cheap way of getting the weight on cattle. Rye grass is also a major cause of hay fever so I would not be surprised that the rise in summer COPD is partly linked to the increase in popularity of this grass.


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## Dry Rot (12 September 2014)

Tnavas said:



*As Laminitis is in most cases a disease of POOR Management to me this would be a ridiculous reason for not breeding from a particular mare.* There are far more important factors to consider, such as quality of conformation, action, temperament. Personally I would prefer a good doer over a poor doer any day. Not just for economic reasons but it is far easier to feed the right type of feed for the discipline if you are not having to worry about keeping weight on a horse.

ANY horse can come down with Laminitis if the right conditions exist. 

Some horses are more predisposed to Laminitis and not in any particular breed. 

I've had native ponies that have lived out year round and never had laminitis, I've seen TB yearlings with low grade Laminitis because of the quantity of feed being pushed into them to 'Grow them Big' for the Yearling Sales. 

My Clydesdale mare is a fatty and I watch her diet really carefully, she still lives out 24/7 but her paddock has very short grass in it. Yet I have friends with Clydesdales who have to hard feed to keep weight on them.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/More-Insights-Into-Laminitis-Arabian/dp/1446156931 - Research into dealing with Laminitis in  Arabians

http://www.ker.com/library/Proceedings/08/5_Laminitis_p57.pdf - Research by Kentucky Equine Research
		
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Ridiculous it may be but that is my choice. I am not advising anyone.

I really cannot be bothered with ponies that need special management or watching. It is simple too much hassle to be continually moving electric fences. I've not experienced the problem of a poor doer Highland yet though I suppose anything is possible. My stallion and two colts have been grazing in a paddock with some quite long grass. They haven't gone mad, just regulated their eating. Though I've had others (since sold) that would not know when to stop. Obsessive eating is definitely a disorder to my mind and it is a well known fact that metabolism is faster in some than others.


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## Tnavas (12 September 2014)

SO1 said:



			There does seem to be a lot more cases of EMS and Cushings and whilst the laminitis might be caused by these conditions what is causing the rise in numbers with EMS?

I think a lot of the problems are caused by the over consumption of Rye grass which is an unnatural grass developed as a cheap way of getting the weight on cattle. Rye grass is also a major cause of hay fever so I would not be surprised that the rise in summer COPD is partly linked to the increase in popularity of this grass.
		
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No not Rye Grass - we've had Rye grass since for ever - its the increase in people needlessly feeding their horses commercially prepared feeds high in unsuitable food stuffs. The biggest culprit I believe is SOY protein - Soy is known to cause metabolic problems in humans - there is no reason not to suspect it is stuffing up our horses.

I only feed straights and have done for over 40 years - I've worked in many yards with large numbers of horses and ponies - all fed straights and never had a case of EMS. the odd Laminitic pony has been one that has come on to the property and never suffered again from Laminitis and I've seen a couple of Cushings ponies - all in their early 20's. 

Soy also is known to suppress the immune system too so this could also explain the rise in summer allergies. We've also seen a massive rise in the number of Head Shakers - a recent study I read suggested that additional salt is given to head shakers to make them drink more which removes excess Potassium from the horses system.


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## JFTDWS (12 September 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			Genetics/breeding is a subject that few understand and, when you think you do, it will surely up it's ugly had and kick you firmly in the back side!

I had a very interesting chat with a professional geneticist years ago when I was told, "Everything is genetic". He then aded, "&#8230;of course, an endocrinologist will tell you everything is hormonal!"  A broken leg is not genetic, but a tendency to brittle bones might be. So, yes, I'd say a tendency to Laminitis is genetic&#8230;as is a tendency to getting sweet itch&#8230;or breaking bones. It is the breeder's job to aim to breed from stock that is 100% perfect.

(No Laminitis or sweet itch here yet, touch wood).
		
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As you know, I think this is a sensible precaution.  Everything has a genetic component on some level, we just haven't worked out what it is yet.  

And I consider myself better placed to comment on that than most...


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## Kazza1 (12 September 2014)

JFTD said:



			As you know, I think this is a sensible precaution.  Everything has a genetic component on some level, we just haven't worked out what it is yet.  

And I consider myself better placed to comment on that than most...
		
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I agree, I find it hard to believe that genetics has no part in the pre-disposition to lami and underlying causes.....whether It could be that the offspring just inherits the good doer gene (there must be one!?) and then develops ems/lami through being overweight, instead of an actual laminitis gene? I mean it happens in humans doesn't it?? If your parents have diabetes (similar to ems???) then the children are more likely to get it???


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## twiggy2 (13 September 2014)

Kazza1 said:



			I agree, I find it hard to believe that genetics has no part in the pre-disposition to lami and underlying causes.....whether It could be that the offspring just inherits the good doer gene (there must be one!?) and then develops ems/lami through being overweight, instead of an actual laminitis gene? I mean it happens in humans doesn't it?? If your parents have diabetes (similar to ems???) then the children are more likely to get it???
		
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type 2 diabetes is usually caused by diet and lifestyle and it is the same with ems, a horse or pony that is allowed to gain weight year on year is the most lekely one to get it


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## Dry Rot (13 September 2014)

twiggy2 said:



			type 2 diabetes is usually caused by diet and lifestyle and it is the same with ems, a horse or pony that is allowed to gain weight year on year is the most lekely one to get it
		
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As would the pony with an obsessive desire to eat and not stop?

Wasn't it Charles Darwin who suggested that there was a correlation between spinsters in an area and the predominance of clover in the pastures?

His reasoning was as follows. (And no doubt he had his tongue firmly in his cheek!).

Elderly single ladies often keep cats. Cats prey on mice. Mice make burrows that are favoured by bumble bees for making their nests. Bumble bees pollinate clover. So, if there are no mice to provide breeding places for bees, there will be no pollination and no clover.

For that tenuous reason I will not knowing breed for substandard stock, let alone breed from one that has no use except as a "companion or for breeding". Not guilty just means the prosecution's case has not been proved to the jury's satisfaction and there is still reasonable doubt.


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## JFTDWS (13 September 2014)

twiggy2 said:



			type 2 diabetes is usually caused by diet and lifestyle and it is the same with ems, a horse or pony that is allowed to gain weight year on year is the most lekely one to get it
		
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Risk of t2 diabetes increased dramatically with waist size (and waist-hip ratio) which is determined in part by lifestyle and in part by how one carries weight.  And the latter is almost entirely determined by genetics.

And that's before you consider what in farming is referred to as an "RFI"... Or relative food index.  We've been selectively breeding animals for centuries, selecting stock which are better at converting the same amount of food into more muscle (or less muscle, more milk / more eggs / etc).  Meat stock should have a negative RFI - therefore is capable of putting on more weight per kilo of food supplied.  This is genetic - it is bred into lines and breeds of livestock.  The same basic genetics pre-determines the ease of putting on weight in companion animals, equines and humans - some animals and people have to work harder to remain "a good weight", or they would gain weight despite the same lifestyle as an equivalent animal.  One of life's joyous little lotteries and all that.


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## Soup Dragon (13 September 2014)

As people on here are interested in laminitis and it's causes perhaps you would like to join the Animal Health Trust who are trying to collate as much information as possible.

You do not need a laminitic to join.  All types of horse and pony are needed to get some conclusions.
Also a handy way of keeping a record of your horses weight.

http://www.aht.org.uk/cms-display/care_about_laminitis.html


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## Peregrine Falcon (13 September 2014)

I'm going to stick my neck on the line and say rocking horses!


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## Moomin1 (13 September 2014)

Falconers said:



			I'm going to stick my neck on the line and say rocking horses! 

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Don't be daft.  They get laminate-itis.


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## Tnavas (13 September 2014)

moomin1 said:



			don't be daft.  They get laminate-itis.
		
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:biggrin4::biggrin4::biggrin4::biggrin4::biggrin4::biggrin4::biggrin4:


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## Peregrine Falcon (14 September 2014)

Moomin1 said:



			Don't be daft.  They get laminate-itis.
		
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Oh, how silly of me, of course they WOOD!


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## Wagtail (14 September 2014)

Falconers said:



			Oh, how silly of me, of course they WOOD!
		
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:biggrin3:


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## twiggy2 (14 September 2014)

JFTD said:



			Risk of t2 diabetes increased dramatically with waist size (and waist-hip ratio) which is determined in part by lifestyle and in part by how one carries weight.  And the latter is almost entirely determined by genetics.

And that's before you consider what in farming is referred to as an "RFI"... Or relative food index.  We've been selectively breeding animals for centuries, selecting stock which are better at converting the same amount of food into more muscle (or less muscle, more milk / more eggs / etc).  Meat stock should have a negative RFI - therefore is capable of putting on more weight per kilo of food supplied.  This is genetic - it is bred into lines and breeds of livestock.  The same basic genetics pre-determines the ease of putting on weight in companion animals, equines and humans - some animals and people have to work harder to remain "a good weight", or they would gain weight despite the same lifestyle as an equivalent animal.  One of life's joyous little lotteries and all that.
		
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this is all true but would support the idea that some need more management than others but that is down to long term care and prevention


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## Dry Rot (14 September 2014)

twiggy2 said:



			this is all true but would support the idea that some need more management than others but that is down to long term care and prevention
		
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I'll go along with that. I do believe that violent peaks and troughs in the supply of feed is a bad thing because when there is plenty, it is natural for an animal to attempt to stuff itself in anticipation of the next famine.

When I worked with hounds, we were never allowed to fuss over a poor doer. I remember one poor hound that stopped eating. The kennel huntsman refused to allow special feeding saying it would "cure itself". To my surprise, he was right. One day the poor emaciated animal staggered out and started eating -- and never looked back! Slow feeders I now tend to give a limited time to eat, then remove the food. It invariably works. But that's dogs, of course, not ponies, but it is surprising how often the psychology transfers. Children from large families are usually fast eaters!


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## JFTDWS (14 September 2014)

twiggy2 said:



			this is all true but would support the idea that some need more management than others but that is down to long term care and prevention
		
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Well obviously.  But the question was "is there a genetic component?", to which the answer is almost certainly yes.  That's not the same as saying some horses _can't_ get it, merely that some are _more likely_ to than others.


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## Clodagh (14 September 2014)

Very interesting debate and points drawn. I think every food being made with molasses can't help, as was discussed on here many times, trying to find a plain chaff is really difficult. I hadn't thought of soy but that makes sense to me, too, as a reason.


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## Kazza1 (14 September 2014)

Falconers said:



			Oh, how silly of me, of course they WOOD!
		
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Oh dear! Makes me wonder whether a propensity for word related puns can be inherited too


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