# Mud Fever - HELP!!



## EliseMiffy98 (23 February 2014)

I got my mare a few months ago and all has gone well, but as the weather got progressively worse so did the fields, and she seems to have developed mud fever  so I'm currently smothering her legs in sudocream and Vaseline and she has brushing boots on her back legs to keep the mud off the worst of her mud fever. I'm not washing her legs, but am brushing the dried mud off every morning instead and stable bandaging her back legs overnight to keep them warm and let the mud dry. 

Am I doing the right thing? I've never had a horse that's got mud fever before and I don't want it to get any worse!!


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## Hayleighm175 (23 February 2014)

Is she stabled? If so leave her in and let it dry up, it'll clear.
 If not then sounds like you're doing a good job


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## twiggy2 (23 February 2014)

wash with warm salt water get as many scabby bit off as possible without making her too sore (this will take time), dry off as best you can stable till the morning, coat with antibiotic cream (from the vet) rub it in well and then smother in vaseline/udder cream-do the same for a couple of nights and it should be scab free then stop washing and just brush dry mud off in the morning and coat in udder cream before turning out-after a week or so just do it once or twice a week to make sure it does not return. I would not put the boots on when turned out as if they rub they leave a raw area for bacteria to enter the skin


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## rochnar (28 February 2014)

I'm fighting mud fever now as well. Now I'm using equi chaps for turnout, and when he comes in I towel dry them (i've clipped the pastern to make everything easier) and put Fucidin (from vet) on the bad places and MSM Equiminis cream all over the pastern. In the morning I use sudocream instead of MSM (it's thicker). It seems to work and it's healing really well. 
good luck!


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## paddi22 (28 February 2014)

i hibiscrubbed legs clean and then used muddy marvels barrier cream - its the only thing that worked for me..


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## rochnar (28 February 2014)

But you can't wash it everyday- any dampness it's making it worse :/


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## paddi22 (28 February 2014)

i just hibiscub once a week and then keep applying the cream each day and it seems to do the job. i agree washing legs too often isn't great


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## rochnar (28 February 2014)

oh once a week I think is a good idea  scabs go more easily when they-re wet (but when it's loads of cream there it's quite easy to get rid of them)


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## enchantedunicorn (1 March 2014)

I put brushing boots on my horse to keep the mud off! However the mud packed between his leg and the boot and made his legs muddier than ever. My horse has mud rash on his back legs at the moment I wash his legs down with anti-bac/anti-fungal shampoo or hibi-scrub then dry them really thoroughly then I put dermoline wound crean on the scabs. When he goes in the field he has turnout boots Premier Equine boots are good and you can get then for the back legs too or just get the neophrine boots from Decathlon there both as good as each other. You can also get mud barrier or pig oil and sulphur to put on their legs - the mud just slides off. If you wash the legs its really important you dry them after. Hope she's better soon


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## Tnavas (2 March 2014)

twiggy2 said:



			wash with warm salt water get as many scabby bit off as possible without making her too sore (this will take time), dry off as best you can stable till the morning, coat with antibiotic cream (from the vet) rub it in well and then smother in vaseline/udder cream-do the same for a couple of nights and it should be scab free then stop washing and just brush dry mud off in the morning and coat in udder cream before turning out-after a week or so just do it once or twice a week to make sure it does not return. I would not put the boots on when turned out as if they rub they leave a raw area for bacteria to enter the skin
		
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DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES PICK OFF SCABS! Doing this creates a secondary bacterial infection.

Go to the chemist and buy a bottle of Nizoral shampoo. Dilute with hand hot water and wash affected area well working the shampoo well into the skin. Make sure that you also wash all around the leg and well above and below the affected area. Mudfever starts off as a fungal infection and so throws spores out increasing the area of affected skin. Once dry rub in Vaseline or zinc ointment to protect the skin.

Ensure that the horse is getting sufficient Copper and Zinc as these are needed to produce strong skin. Equimins has a good level of Copper.


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## JillA (2 March 2014)

We have kept it under control on two here by stabling at night then when it is dry before morning turn out cover with neem oil (to soften scabs, remove bacteria and heal the skin) and on top of that a very liberal coating of petroleum jelly (Vaseline). The petroleum jelly forms a barrier against further mud - you can get big tubs cheaply on ebay - and ours are slowly improving despite still having to go through wet sloppy mud in the gateway. I say under control rather than sorted because there is still mud, but now the worst of the mud is drying up they are making real progress and nearly completely healed.


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## Tnavas (2 March 2014)

JillA said:



			We have kept it under control on two here by stabling at night then when it is dry before morning turn out cover with neem oil (to soften scabs, remove bacteria and heal the skin) and on top of that a very liberal coating of petroleum jelly (Vaseline). The petroleum jelly forms a barrier against further mud - you can get big tubs cheaply on ebay - and ours are slowly improving despite still having to go through wet sloppy mud in the gateway. I say under control rather than sorted because there is still mud, but now the worst of the mud is drying up they are making real progress and nearly completely healed.
		
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Nizoral will clear it up completely in a few days.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (2 March 2014)

Whilst accepting that what works for one horse is fine, its working and that's that, PLEASE please be v.v. careful of using Pig Oil and Sulphur - especially on pink, inflamed skin like Mud Fever, coz you could easily make things one helluva lot worse. IF you're going to use it, then patch test for at least 24 hrs first in an area unaffected by mud fever, and see how that goes. 

I used it on my boy, Traddie Cob, pink skin & white hair, and he came up in an awful pink hot rash. Stupidly I didn't patch test first, took advice given from another thread on here, and used it. 

Yes it might be fine on some horses, but others not.

So just flagging up a warning here. 

You CAN use Pig Oil, just use it without the sulphur added, I add in some Tea Tree and/or Neem oil and this will protect against mud and also feather mites too. But again, best to patch test first.


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## Exploding Chestnuts (2 March 2014)

I fed micronised linseed and minerals to my boy who suffered and was itchy all year, this calmed everything down.
I used the special neoprene chaps on one boy when he paddled in mud to graze and he was fine.
Also agree with stabling overnight is good, I used chaps/woollen bandages if legs very wet and dirty.
I never  used daily hibiscrub and hosing as all the people who had it had used this treatment. I managed to settle it in one horse when owner was away for a week, and I was doing the vet stuff [using clean dry bandaging], but as soon as owner came back it flared up again.
I think I used some keratex powder before tuurnout, but that was all.


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## Auslander (2 March 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Mudfever starts off as a fungal infection and so throws spores out increasing the area of affected skin.
		
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Not strictly correct. The mud fever bug, Dermatophilus congolensis is an actinomycete, a bacteria that acts like a fungus. It's not an actual fungal infection, although it demonstrates some of the characteristics. Its a bacteria that lives on the skin perfectly harmlessly, until the skin is compromised, at which point, it proliferates, and causes the symptoms of mud-fever. Once this has happened, secondary staph infection can be introduced. 

Nizoral CAN be effective, but not because mud fever is fungal. The main ingredient in Nizoral is Ketaconozole. Its an anti-fungal certainly, but there is a clinical study that has identified both an antibacterial and anti inflammatory effect when using it on animal skin where a staph infection has been deliberately introduced.


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## Tnavas (2 March 2014)

Auslander said:



			Not strictly correct. The mud fever bug, Dermatophilus congolensis is an actinomycete, a bacteria that acts like a fungus. It's not an actual fungal infection, although it demonstrates some of the characteristics. Its a bacteria that lives on the skin perfectly harmlessly, until the skin is compromised, at which point, it proliferates, and causes the symptoms of mud-fever. Once this has happened, secondary staph infection can be introduced. 

Nizoral CAN be effective, but not because mud fever is fungal. The main ingredient in Nizoral is Ketaconozole. Its an anti-fungal certainly, but there is a clinical study that has identified both an antibacterial and anti inflammatory effect when using it on animal skin where a staph infection has been deliberately introduced.
		
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Auslander - we go through this conversation every year! - weather it is a fungus or not until someone does skin scrapings on the day it first shows up and has not been touched with other remidies can any one prove it.

when vets get to see it there has usually been some 'home remidies' done which generally means scabs have been pulled off. As we know these are NOT real scabs made of fibrin but congealed lymp stuck around the hair in clumps.

It behaves just like a fungus in that it spreads outwards in ever increasing circles.

If caught early with Nizoral it goe in days not weeks and months along with expensive time consuming treatment. I have now treated 100's of cases with Nizoral and all bar the ones that are suffering from photosensitisation have responded well and fast. Dermatophilus congolensis is the secondary infection activated by the owner picking off scabs. Dermatophilus congolensis is present in the majority of soils world wide.


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## Auslander (2 March 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Auslander - we go through this conversation every year! - weather it is a fungus or not until someone does skin scrapings on the day it first shows up and has not been touched with other remidies can any one prove it.

when vets get to see it there has usually been some 'home remidies' done which generally means scabs have been pulled off. As we know these are NOT real scabs made of fibrin but congealed lymp stuck around the hair in clumps.

It behaves just like a fungus in that it spreads outwards in ever increasing circles.

If caught early with Nizoral it goe in days not weeks and months along with expensive time consuming treatment. I have now treated 100's of cases with Nizoral and all bar the ones that are suffering from photosensitisation have responded well and fast. Dermatophilus congolensis is the secondary infection activated by the owner picking off scabs. Dermatophilus congolensis is present in the majority of soils world wide.
		
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No Tnavas - we've never had a conversation about this!

There have been plenty of clinical trials into mud fever - carried out under controlled conditions - i guess you just haven't seen them in your veterinary practice.

Im not arguing about the effectiveness of nizoral - it does work in some cases, possibly because of the noted antibacterial/antiinflammatory properties that it has in addition to the main anti-fungal effect. Not sure it's the wonder-cure you seem to think it is though. There are any number of things that work - and Nizoral is one of them.


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## Tnavas (2 March 2014)

Auslander said:



			No Tnavas - we've never had a conversation about this! *Sorry not meant to be personal but this subject comes up every year on H & H not necessarily with you *

There have been plenty of clinical trials into mud fever - carried out under controlled conditions - i guess you just haven't seen them in your veterinary practice. 

*Unfortunately these trails never manage to have on hand a horse with a brand new patch of mudfever just discovered that day by the owner - if they did they would find how fast the Nizoral works*


Im not arguing about the effectiveness of nizoral - it does work in some cases, possibly because of the noted antibacterial/antiinflammatory properties that it has in addition to the main anti-fungal effect. 

*Please can you provide me with a link to this information as I have never seen it written anywhere*

Not sure it's the wonder-cure you seem to think it is though. There are any number of things that work - and Nizoral is one of them.  
*Have YOU personally actually tried it?*

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I have vets around the world now recommending it - of all the treatments I've used in the past 40+ years Nizoral has been the quickest and most effective. 

Having horses with many white socks as I have, Clydesdale and Clyde crosses mudfever is an ever present threat. I have a pump spray with diluted Nizoral in it - at the first sign - 'the clumped hair and tender skin' the Nizoral is sprayed on and rubbed in, the scabs are gone in a couple of days. 

I've used Nizoral on the racehorses that have come back from spelling with the whole of their white socks covered in mudfever. The legs are washed with the Nizoral and within a few days all the scabs have gone. The skin is clean and the mudfever doesn't break out again. 

I would far rather use a treatment that is painless for the horse, fast acting and hassle free.


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## Auslander (2 March 2014)

Tnavas said:



			I have vets around the world now recommending it - of all the treatments I've used in the past 40+ years Nizoral has been the quickest and most effective. 

Having horses with many white socks as I have, Clydesdale and Clyde crosses mudfever is an ever present threat. I have a pump spray with diluted Nizoral in it - at the first sign - 'the clumped hair and tender skin' the Nizoral is sprayed on and rubbed in, the scabs are gone in a couple of days. 

I've used Nizoral on the racehorses that have come back from spelling with the whole of their white socks covered in mudfever. The legs are washed with the Nizoral and within a few days all the scabs have gone. The skin is clean and the mudfever doesn't break out again. 

I would far rather use a treatment that is painless for the horse, fast acting and hassle free.
		
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Here is the clinical study re anti-inflammatory/antibacterial properties of the active ingredient in Nizoral. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1918463


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## Tnavas (2 March 2014)

Thanks Auslander - very interesting reading


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## littledonkey (2 March 2014)

we have found the mud oil from www.naturallybetter.org.uk really good in helping with healing & prevention


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## khalswitz (2 March 2014)

Auslander said:



			Here is the clinical study re anti-inflammatory/antibacterial properties of the active ingredient in Nizoral. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1918463

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And the active ingredient is often used to treat contact dermatitis - which can be caused by photosensitisation. So it would follow that it would be a good treatment both as an antibacterial/anti inflammatory for classic mud fever, and as a treatment for photosensitisation-related dermatitis, which can often be mistaken for mud fever.


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## Tnavas (2 March 2014)

khalswitz said:



			And the active ingredient is often used to treat contact dermatitis - which can be caused by photosensitisation. So it would follow that it would be a good treatment both as an antibacterial/anti inflammatory for classic mud fever, and as a treatment for photosensitisation-related dermatitis, which can often be mistaken for mud fever.
		
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Nizoral doesn't seem to work on the photosensitisation type of Mudfever which again brings me round to believing that true Mudfever is initially fungal.


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## khalswitz (2 March 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Nizoral doesn't seem to work on the photosensitisation type of Mudfever which again brings me round to believing that true Mudfever is initially fungal.
		
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But the active ingredient is prescribed specifically for photosensitisation dermatitis, in humans *and* animals. So there is obviously something wrong there, somewhere.

Bear with me while I go look up some studies/trials etc, we all like those...


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## Tnavas (2 March 2014)

khalswitz said:



			But the active ingredient is prescribed specifically for photosensitisation dermatitis, in humans *and* animals. So there is obviously something wrong there, somewhere.

Bear with me while I go look up some studies/trials etc, we all like those...
		
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MAybe it doesn't work because the owner hasn't removed the cause of the photosensitisation - eg Lucerne and Clovers


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## khalswitz (2 March 2014)

khalswitz said:



			But the active ingredient is prescribed specifically for photosensitisation dermatitis, in humans *and* animals. So there is obviously something wrong there, somewhere.

Bear with me while I go look up some studies/trials etc, we all like those...
		
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Right, I will throw my hands up and admit I was wrong, I got a bit mixed up there. It is seborrheic dermatitis that Nizoral treats. This is a dermal condition whereby the skin reacts to the normal presence of Malassezia and presents as inflamed skin, and oozing, weeping skin that congeals into scabs of sebum. Appears very like mud fever, but its origins are completely different.

In humans: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3100109/

Nizoral however can cause allergic reactions, and should never be used without spot testing and certainly not without prescription, as it can CAUSE photosensitisation as a side effect. 

http://www.nhs.uk/medicine-guides/p...px?condition=Dermatitis&medicine=Ketoconazole
http://www.fpnotebook.com/DER/Pharm/DrgIndcdPhtsnstvty.htm

So Nizoral is used to treat something that looks very like mud fever, but has a completely different origin. It can also cause photosensitisation, and is known to be an allergen, so something to very careful about using if unsure of the origin of what you are treating.

Interestingly, a quick Google of Nizoral and Mud Fever comes up with no authentic sources, but lots and lots of forum posts...


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## Tnavas (3 March 2014)

khalswitz said:



			Right, I will throw my hands up and admit I was wrong, I got a bit mixed up there. It is seborrheic dermatitis that Nizoral treats. This is a dermal condition whereby the skin reacts to the normal presence of Malassezia and presents as inflamed skin, and oozing, weeping skin that congeals into scabs of sebum. Appears very like mud fever, but its origins are completely different.

In humans: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3100109/

Nizoral however can cause allergic reactions, and should never be used without spot testing and certainly not without prescription, as it can CAUSE photosensitisation as a side effect. 

http://www.nhs.uk/medicine-guides/p...px?condition=Dermatitis&medicine=Ketoconazole
http://www.fpnotebook.com/DER/Pharm/DrgIndcdPhtsnstvty.htm

So Nizoral is used to treat something that looks very like mud fever, but has a completely different origin. It can also cause photosensitisation, and is known to be an allergen, so something to very careful about using if unsure of the origin of what you are treating.

Interestingly, a quick Google of Nizoral and Mud Fever comes up with no authentic sources, but lots and lots of forum posts...
		
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That information is for humans and for oral tablets which are infact very nasty - please identify which of these sources advised that Nizoral SHAMPOO could cause photosensitisation!

To date I have not yet had any horse react adversley to it in any form. 

It does NOT need to be prescribed - it is an over the counter shampoo.

Please stop scaremongering when you know so little about it.


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## khalswitz (3 March 2014)

Tnavas said:



			That information is for humans and for oral tablets which are infact very nasty - please identify which of these sources advised that Nizoral SHAMPOO could cause photosensitisation!

To date I have not yet had any horse react adversley to it in any form. 

It does NOT need to be prescribed - it is an over the counter shampoo.

Please stop scaremongering when you know so little about it.
		
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"Information specific to: Ketoconazole 2% cream when used in Dermatitis."

"Ketoconazole is not suitable for everyone and some people should never use it. Other people should only use it with special care. It is important that the person prescribing this medicine knows your full medical history.
Your prescriber may only prescribe this medicine with special care."

From the NHS link I gave you. So unless the NHS is wrong please don't accuse me of knowing 'little about it' - that is what they have said.

Links above also state TOPICAL with regards to allergic reactions, not oral. Taken orally, it's liver damage it causes.

And from the photosensitivity list, "UVA exposure is associated with photosensitivity" as a reaction to topical ketoconazole. (Not every time, but allergic reactions and photosensitivity are well documented)

http://www.drugs.com/nizoral.html
http://www.patient.co.uk/medicine/ketoconazole-for-topical-use

Says that topical ketoconazole shampoo CAN be bought in the lowest strength (1%) without prescription in the UK but only after discussion with a pharmacist (Or SQP). Any higher strength shampoo (2% or 3%) requires prescription by a doctor - and this is the strength listed in the study link I gave you that works effectively on dermatitis, which would be your mud fever look-alike.


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## Tnavas (3 March 2014)

khalswitz said:



			"Information specific to: Ketoconazole 2% cream when used in Dermatitis."

"Ketoconazole is not suitable for everyone and some people should never use it. Other people should only use it with special care. It is important that the person prescribing this medicine knows your full medical history.
Your prescriber may only prescribe this medicine with special care."

From the NHS link I gave you. So unless the NHS is wrong please don't accuse me of knowing 'little about it' - that is what they have said.

Links above also state TOPICAL with regards to allergic reactions, not oral. Taken orally, it's liver damage it causes.

And from the photosensitivity list, "UVA exposure is associated with photosensitivity" as a reaction to topical ketoconazole. (Not every time, but allergic reactions and photosensitivity are well documented)

http://www.drugs.com/nizoral.html
http://www.patient.co.uk/medicine/ketoconazole-for-topical-use

Says that topical ketoconazole shampoo CAN be bought in the lowest strength (1%) without prescription in the UK but only after discussion with a pharmacist (Or SQP). Any higher strength shampoo (2% or 3%) requires prescription by a doctor - and this is the strength listed in the study link I gave you that works effectively on dermatitis, which would be your mud fever look-alike.
		
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We are NOT using cream, we are NOT using tablets we are using

*SHAMPOO*

As I have said earlier I have been using it for over 7 years now, on well over 100 horses with no adverse effects.
I have vets using it on my recommendation in several different countries.

As I said earlier - stop scarmongering when YOU don't know what you are talking about.


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## khalswitz (3 March 2014)

Tnavas said:



			We are NOT using cream, we are NOT using tablets we are using

*SHAMPOO*

As I have said earlier I have been using it for over 7 years now, on well over 100 horses with no adverse effects.
I have vets using it on my recommendation in several different countries.

As I said earlier - stop scarmongering when YOU don't know what you are talking about.
		
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I have studied pharmacology at degree level and I'm sorry but TOPICAL APPLICATION will have the same allergic reaction in SHAMPOO as it will in CREAM. The same drug is being applied to the skin! So stop trying to rubbish me when YOU obviously don't know enough about drug application routes!

There is an *associated risk* of allergic reactions and photosensitivity with TOPICAL APPLICATION of ketoconazole. This doesn't mean it shouldn't be used at all, but that you SHOULDN'T be encouraging people to just go and buy it over the counter and use it on their horses without seeking veterinary advice. I'm not saying it doesn't work or WILL give your horse reactions but that it can have these side effects and you should seek professional advice not the rambling of someone on the internet before using it.

ESPECIALLY when mud fever is a BACTERIAL infection.


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## Tnavas (3 March 2014)

Comparing the ointment with the shampoo is rather ridiculous as one is left on meaning the active ingredient is absorbed and the other rinsed off meaning the active ingredient is removed after a short time.

I recommend it as for the past 7 years I have used it with no adverse effects. My vet - a highly regarded specialised equine practise use it. I have vets both in America and UK using it.

I have been recommending it to H & H readers for several years now and if you read back through many Mudfever threads how thrilled they are that they can now use something that actually works without causing extreme pain to their horses.

While you may have a science degree, I have several equine related qualifications, I also specialise in veterinary care. With over 40 years working in the equine industry I do know what I am talking about. I've had horses come in from spelling with horrendous Mudfever which has promptly cleared up within days. 

You will read on here of people who have been battling Mudfever for months. Nizoral at 1% will clear it up fast.

Mudfever in its first stage is fungal, once messed around with by owners by picking off scabs, and breaking the skin develops a secondary bacterial infection.


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## khalswitz (3 March 2014)

Tnavas said:



			Comparing the ointment with the shampoo is rather ridiculous as one is left on meaning the active ingredient is absorbed and the other rinsed off meaning the active ingredient is removed after a short time.

I recommend it as for the past 7 years I have used it with no adverse effects. My vet - a highly regarded specialised equine practise use it. I have vets both in America and UK using it.

I have been recommending it to H & H readers for several years now and if you read back through many Mudfever threads how thrilled they are that they can now use something that actually works without causing extreme pain to their horses.

While you may have a science degree, I have several equine related qualifications, I also specialise in veterinary care. With over 40 years working in the equine industry I do know what I am talking about. I've had horses come in from spelling with horrendous Mudfever which has promptly cleared up within days. 

You will read on here of people who have been battling Mudfever for months. Nizoral at 1% will clear it up fast.

Mudfever in its first stage is fungal, once messed around with by owners by picking off scabs, and breaking the skin develops a secondary bacterial infection.
		
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Of course the active ingredient is absorbed when shampoo is used. Obviously there is not the same exposure, but if you are allergic to it, as it has been shown ketoconazole is an allergen, then you will still get a reaction! Hence why similar products licensed for animals such as malaseb shampoo all carry allergen warnings, and warnings for human handlers to wear PPE such as gloves.

Yes, I have a degree from Cambridge Vet School, and am completing my Masters part time at the Dick Vet, as well as having worked on competitions yards, stud farms, equine rescue and rehabilitation including nursing, and work as a healthcare professional in the veterinary industry. So I'm not talking out of my bum, thanks.

Also the plural of anecdote is not data. I could turn around and say that myself and most people I know have no problem with mud fever (even my horse who historically had horrendous mud fever) because we use alamycin, an antibacterial antibiotic, which clears up signs in a day or so (another reason aside from all the research and studies that have concluded that mud fever is bacterial, that causes me to believe mud fever is bacterial, especially when nizoral also has antibacterial properties - and I've never been a scab picker so you can't accuse me of introducing bacteria to a fungal infection either). However I would never go telling people to just use it without discussion with their vet, and alamycin doesn't have a known status as an allergen and cause of drug-related photosensitivity like ketoconazole. I think that is madness. And to be honest if you've worked in the veterinary industry I think you should know better than to just go telling people to buy and use a drug without any warning of side effects or discussion with their own veterinary professional.


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## Tnavas (3 March 2014)

If my own vet wasn't using Nizoral then I wouldn't be suggesting it. You can be melodramatic as you like while I will be sensible. On over 100 that I have personally used it on not one has had an adverse reaction. 

I will go by my practical experience of the product. When shampoo is used only a small amount is absorbed into the skin as despite being 1% the water used to dissolve it reduces it's strength yet again.

Glad you are not a scab picker, wish we could convert the majority who torture their horses.

Next time your horse has an attack of Mudfever give the Nizoral a try. Far better not to use antibiotics if you can .


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## khalswitz (3 March 2014)

Tnavas said:



			If my own vet wasn't using Nizoral then I wouldn't be suggesting it. You can be melodramatic as you like while I will be sensible. On over 100 that I have personally used it on not one has had an adverse reaction. 

I will go by my practical experience of the product. When shampoo is used only a small amount is absorbed into the skin as despite being 1% the water used to dissolve it reduces it's strength yet again.

Glad you are not a scab picker, wish we could convert the majority who torture their horses.

Next time your horse has an attack of Mudfever give the Nizoral a try. Far better not to use antibiotics if you can .
		
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I'm not being melodramatic - I have had experiences of horses reacting to things before (my own reacted to wound powder, to hypocare, and to hibiscrub, whilst I has a horse for training previously who had a massive reaction to malaseb shampoo for rain scald, as well as having seen a lot of cases through the vet school of animals with skin problems that need spot testing for any new product to avoid reactions) and therefore I am more aware of it and tend to manage for it. Without a veterinary history, making a recommendation of a drug with proven action as an allergen to me seems absurd, but because I have seen the other side of it - you obviously haven't.

As I've said my lad does react to things, so I would have a long chat with my vet and a patch test before trying it tbh, but sorting out his diet and management, with the antibs for any occasional flare has taken him from being lame with it previously to having not had a flare up since last year, so seems to be working... With his immune system better, he seems to cope better with the bacteria on his skin rather than stressed skin becoming infected.


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## Tnavas (3 March 2014)

khalwitz - all your information relates to humans! 

My PRACTICAL knowledge comes from using Nizoral with no problem on over 100 horses - probably more than would be used in a clinical trial. 

Providing a horse with the right minerals such as Copper and Zinc will definitely reduce or totally prevent flare ups.


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## khalswitz (3 March 2014)

Tnavas said:



			khalwitz - all your information relates to humans! 

My PRACTICAL knowledge comes from using Nizoral with no problem on over 100 horses - probably more than would be used in a clinical trial. 

Providing a horse with the right minerals such as Copper and Zinc will definitely reduce or totally prevent flare ups.
		
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But as any vet will tell you, broadly speaking drugs work similarly in most mammals and humans - obviously you have different dosage rates, absorption rates, but generally are metabolised similarly (vets learn human meds too, and learn the exceptions amongst various species). The many, many off license drugs used in horses base their assumptions on human trials (a lot of drug companies don't bother spending money working out metabolism rates for specifically horses, especially if a niche product) and most trials start out that way.

Specifically for horses, Nizoral isn't licensed, so you won't find specifics on number of horses affected because technically the drug isn't designed for them, so tests haven't been carried out and they can guarantee nothing. In those off-license situations, as a vet, you extrapolate dosage and side effects based on the human notes for the drug, and patch test/keep an eye out for reactions. I've done this many times using off-license drugs on horses - doesn't mean you can't use them, I remember reading something like 40% of veterinary prescribed drugs are human drugs used off license. But you have to follow the warnings noted in human testing, as well as an eye for any further reaction.

However a 0.15% ketoconazole product for horses below also lists a caution regarding skin irritation - in a wash form. Also states should only be prescribed by a vet.

http://www.drugs.com/vet/ket-flush.html

"exclusively through licensed veterinarians only"
"If undue ear or skin irritation develops or increases, discontinue use and consult a veterinarian"

On the Nizoral website, the shampoo is listed as "Severe hypersensitivity reactions, including anaphylaxis, have been reported during post- marketing use of NIZORAL® (ketoconazole) Shampoo. If a reaction suggesting sensitivity or chemical irritation should occur, use of the medication should be discontinued."


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## Tnavas (3 March 2014)

I do understand that there have probably  been no clinical trials done on the use of Nizerol for horses - however after using it on over 100 horses with no problems I would consider it a reasonably safe product to use. As I stated earlier - if clinical trials were done they rarely use that number of horses as we all know from other trials done for other things.

Can you give me a link to the actual Nizoral site as I can't seem to find what you are finding even through advanced search


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## khalswitz (3 March 2014)

Tnavas said:



			I do understand that there have probably  been no clinical trials done on the use of Nizerol for horses - however after using it on over 100 horses with no problems I would consider it a reasonably safe product to use. As I stated earlier - if clinical trials were done they rarely use that number of horses as we all know from other trials done for other things.

Can you give me a link to the actual Nizoral site as I can't seem to find what you are finding even through advanced search
		
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I'm on my phone but bear with me while I go find it. Interestingly it said that trials showed no effects, as like you say initial trials can be small numbers, but post-marketing there have been numerous cases. It was the US prescription information from the developers site I read - I'll go find the link... So if the developer admits it!!!


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## khalswitz (3 March 2014)

http://www.janssenpharmaceuticalsinc.com/assets/nizoral_shampoo.pdf

Sorry the developer website not the Nizoral website - must have been diverted off it. States about initial trials being favourable but post-marketing effects seen. 

Also whilst searching just read the FDA analysis - they have side effects listed with incidence recorded, and skin irritation, dandruff, inflammation, pain on palpation and photo sensitivity is listed as uncommon, allergic reaction as rare and full anaphylaxis as very rare.


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## g1paw@hotmail.co.uk (12 March 2014)

Read the testimonial on KBF99 website - the brushes are getting good reviews for use on mudfever


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## Auslander (12 March 2014)

g1paw@hotmail.co.uk said:



			Read the testimonial on KBF99 website - the brushes are getting good reviews for use on mudfever
		
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Surely you're not advocating using something with bristles on open, oozing, painful mud fever lesions? Would you tolerate it if your legs looked like this...


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