# Experiences with fishless cycling?



## MargotC (6 January 2016)

My belated Christmas/early birthday present to myself is a tropical fish tank for my flat. Due to size restrictions only a 63 litre (Juwel Rekord 600 with accompanying cabinet stand, a starter kit, really), that I eventually want to keep Tetras in (although initial aquascaping holds some of the appeal, too). Currently waiting for the shipment to arrive along with the substrate I ordered so am writing this a bit in advance since I haven't gotten it set up yet. (So far the plan is to decide on which type of Tetra once I know which water parameters I can offer when the tank is cycled.)

I don't want to cycle with fish if I can help it, and I'm in the middle of wading through information on fishless cycling using ammonia. Does anyone have experience with this? And if so what testing kits would you recommend! as I have yet to order one.


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## Ormsweird (7 January 2016)

I've always used the API master test kits, which do ammonia, ammonium, nitrates, pH etc all in one. They're not the cheapest of things but they do the job very well. Strip tests kits are generally avoided by everyone I know as somewhat unreliable. If you have a local fish shop they usually will test water for you whilst you're cycling too.

If you have anyone near you who also keeps fish one trick you can do is borrow a bit of their filter media (dirty good!) and add it to your filter. This will kick start the whole process massively.


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## twiggy2 (7 January 2016)

the title had me scratching my head


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## Ormsweird (7 January 2016)

Heh. No fish on bikes here!

Also if you like the look of aquascaping OP, then some of the crystal shrimps work beautifully in that sort of set up, maybe with a small shoal of fish.


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## MargotC (7 January 2016)

Thanks! I'll definitely want a full test kit.. I don't want to go through all the trouble only to be getting it wrong due to wonky tests. Have to see about whether someone I know can possibly donate a bit of filter. Hm. So far the estimates for just using ammonia are differing wildly!

I have no experience with it yet obviously but after some reading I have been really taken with some of the aquascapes I have seen. I seem to remember a bit about shrimps in one of the books I've downloaded.. Would be really neat to be able keep crustaceans, too. I don't want to overcrowd the tank obviously but they shouldn't take up much more space than the shoal of Tetras?

I can already see how people end up with bigger and bigger tanks.  I did like the look of some of the shrimp nano tanks when I was browsing but didn't want to start off with a tinier one!


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## MissTyc (7 January 2016)

I have API full kit 
Did fishless cycling in a tank years ago using the Internet, and it worked. I simply followed a step by step on a forum and did everything I was told 
I managed to maintain that cycle since then and have transferred it to several other tanks as well -- once you know what you're doing it's very intuitive, but until then you feel like a mad scientist with the test tubes haha

This is my 200L tank - it's my favourite but I have a few others as well. This one is actually totally overgrown now, doesn't look as landscaped but it looks like a delightful wild jungle so I quite like it anyway. I have millions of shrimp of three different species, tetras, and kuhlis. A couple of guppies that I rescued. In my other tanks I have bettas -- pics below. Careful, it's addictive! 








Bael in his tank -- this one is nice and thick with plants now, but still tidy. Really need new pics






And Mr Pink in his tank, though I don't seem to have any pics of his tank. It's a lovely 40L mounted thing that's more art than fish tank lol


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## Ormsweird (7 January 2016)

Bettas! Dangerous things! I ended up with 15 small tanks for my collection of bettas! Some of which were imported especially.  And some of them liked picking up shrimp and chewing on them, so shrimp in different tanks!

And yes, shrimp work well with most fish.

I have one fresh water still, 80 litres which will soon house some more crystal shrimp. I am slightly obsessed with them. The others were all scaled down as I lost my boys and now I have two 50 litre marine tanks. Hermit crabs are cute too!


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## MargotC (7 January 2016)

I think I will be feeling like a mad scientist for a while yet!  The plus side of it is that it does all seem very logical once you get a hang of the different values and what they should be (I hope).

How lovely with pictures. I wish I could fit a 200L in my flat! But I think anything bigger and I'd have to start chucking various furniture out.. and I need what little I have.  Hopefully I can manage making my plants thrive and grow too once they're in. I haven't yet picked appropriate ones, no point ordering before they have somewhere to go.

And last how great to see Bettas get appropriate space! How gorgeous they are. The most local pet/fish store to me keeps a couple in extremely tiny ornamental vases on the desk, a table decoration kind of setup. Needless to say I have not been ordering from them. If I wasn't set on a shoal of Tetras for my new one I'd have half a mind to pick one of them up.


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## MargotC (7 January 2016)

Ormsweird said:



			Bettas! Dangerous things! I ended up with 15 small tanks for my collection of bettas! Some of which were imported especially.  And some of them liked picking up shrimp and chewing on them, so shrimp in different tanks!

And yes, shrimp work well with most fish.

I have one fresh water still, 80 litres which will soon house some more crystal shrimp. I am slightly obsessed with them. The others were all scaled down as I lost my boys and now I have two 50 litre marine tanks. Hermit crabs are cute too!
		
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Don't go tempting me too much now.  Do the shrimp breed when kept in an ordinary tank?


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## MissTyc (7 January 2016)

MargotC said:



			Don't go tempting me too much now.  Do the shrimp breed when kept in an ordinary tank?
		
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I have Amanos, woodshrimp and cherry shrimp. The first two can't breed in a normal tropical tank, but the cherries multiply unstoppably. They're all over my tanks as they travel from tank to tank with plants. I'm sure loads get eaten but they breed so quickly that it's probably a good thing. Everywhere you look there are dozens of them esp in the big tank with the moss


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## Ormsweird (7 January 2016)

Yes, the crystals will breed in ordinary tanks. Tiny little crystal babies!


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## MargotC (7 January 2016)

Neat! I wouldn't want it to get out of hand obviously but I have now added shrimp to my shortlist. It might be nice with a tiny bit of variety in the tank..


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## Nudibranch (10 January 2016)

Stunning tanks MissTyc! Love the bettas. I've never done fishless cycling properly other than squeezing a filter sponge in from another tank. We have a breakfast bar tank of neons and corys, an 800l room divider with discus, lemon tetra and a pair of wild angels, and a 2500l indoor pool with a glass side. It has cichlids, a turtle, a plecostomus and a pair of motoro rays, then a mini rainforest above with free range geckos...so be warned, it is highly addictive!

Algae is the plant growers enemy.  We found that siting the tanks in the darkest possible place and then having 8-10 hours of light works best. Build up the light gradually as well. Start with 4 to 6 hours then work up to maximum. The darker the exterior, the less the algae will grow. Also bristlenose are your friend. We have them in all the tanks and they've cut down the glass cleaning massively.

I'm thinking about a small tank of flame guppies somewhere...saw them in a branch of Maidenhead Aquatics and they are truly spectacular. Small fish aren't usually my thing either!


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## MargotC (10 January 2016)

Nudibranch, that setup sounds amazing. I love the idea of a rainforest environment above the waterline..

Good point about the light conditions. I have two possible locations for my little tank, they both don't get any direct sunlight on them thankfully and that part of the room is generally quite dimly lit so controlling the amount of light should be quite doable. I am wondering if I should also invest in a dark background for the tank as am going with both live plants, and either a small shoal of Neon or Cardinal Tetras.

I am always amazed at the different Guppy colour variations. I think the ones I was last admiring were called something like Purple Snowflake (looked like peacock colouring to me) and Green Cobra. I have no idea what kinds are available around here (rural part of Norway to say the least) so anything fancy like that is probably ruled out for me anyway!

On another note, does anyone have experiences on what the margin of error is with regards to stocking a tank?

In my case with the little 63 litre tank and applying the 1 inch of fish per 1 gallon of water rule, when using the max. sizes for Neons and Cardinals I find that this should allow me to keep either six fully grown Neons or three and a half D) Cardinals.

Obviously as they both prefer to swim in shoals I wouldn't want to keep less than six regardless of type. I also don't expect them to actually BE fully grown at time of purchase, or necessarily get to that size.

So would I be safely within the margin of error with say either ten Neons (my first preference) or six Cardinals?

As everyone can tell I haven't actually gone through stocking a tank like this before.


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## Nudibranch (10 January 2016)

I think youll be fine with more fish, just make sure you have a good filter. Externals are most efficient,  and save tank space.


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## HashRouge (10 January 2016)

The title of this thread stresses me out, even though I've read it and know it is nothing to do with bicycles, every time it catches my eye my brain has a mini-meltdown trying to understand it


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## MargotC (10 January 2016)

HashRouge, the first few times I was reading up on cycling a tank I kept thinking about the human reproductive system. No logic to it, I think my brain just gripped onto the "cycle" aspect. 

That's great if I can safely keep those numbers I worked out.  I think the tank that is en-route here comes with internal filter and heater as well as a cover with light but it should all be removable if I find I want to do my own setup depending on tank needs (and from what I can see this isn't necessarily crazily expensive to put together either!).


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## MargotC (13 January 2016)

I have been musing to myself about stocking since I am having trouble sleeping tonight.

From reading I have found two rules of thumb regarding stocking small freshwater fish.. The first being the inch per gallon rule (or 2.5 cms per 3.8 litres of water). The second being the 12 sq. cms per cm of adult fish rule.

Primarily considering either neons (3 cm), cardinals (5 cm), or male guppies (6 cm) at this point, I have been doing the maths according to the above. The tank will have live plants and plenty of hiding places as well as open space for swimming.

The first rule allows for 5.5 grown neons, 3.3 grown cardinals, or 2.7 grown guppies. Since I used full tank volume (63 litres) without allowing for substrate, plants, and filter, these numbers would have ended up even lower. It seems to me this rule ends up a bit on the conservative side. 

The second rule allows for 50 neons, 30 cardinals, or 25 guppies (the surface areal being 1800 sq. cm). It seems to me this rule does quite overstock a tank. 

My gut feeling when looking at both rules combined, without having run a tank like this!, says I would be okay with 5 -10 male guppies, 10 - 15 cardinals, or no more than 20 neons assuming they don't in fact grow above 3 cms.

Am I far off the mark here? Maybe someone has a third and more accurate rule to apply? 

ETA. It will be a species tank, I think, or numbers on each side will of course be cut accordingly.


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## Ormsweird (13 January 2016)

Something to consider is that certainly some of those rules are quite old, when doing water changes was not common - ie it was thought to be a BAD thing! 

If you want to keep more fish (and I would go for a shoal of about 10 to look good in a species tank, no matter what species) then you can get a bigger filter to help compensate and keep on top and possibly do extra water changes. That will keep your tank ticking over better with a higher burden in it. 

Plants will also help with water quality, though sometimes require extra food which balances that out. 

I have kept a so called 'over-stocked' tank before and did as I suggested. Had no problems.


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## MargotC (13 January 2016)

Thanks!

I am quite interested in the maintenance aspect of things and I certainly have time to crack on with maintaining a tank, so after consideration I don't think eventually keeping a shoal of ten as you say is an unreasonable goal for me.

I've had a lot of fun wading through opinions on stocking. Everywhere you look it says differently, even with the tiniest species.


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## 9tails (13 January 2016)

Nudibranch said:



			Stunning tanks MissTyc! Love the bettas. I've never done fishless cycling properly other than squeezing a filter sponge in from another tank. We have a breakfast bar tank of neons and corys, an 800l room divider with discus, lemon tetra and a pair of wild angels, and a 2500l indoor pool with a glass side. It has cichlids, a turtle, a plecostomus and a pair of motoro rays, then a mini rainforest above with free range geckos...so be warned, it is highly addictive!

Algae is the plant growers enemy.  We found that siting the tanks in the darkest possible place and then having 8-10 hours of light works best. Build up the light gradually as well. Start with 4 to 6 hours then work up to maximum. The darker the exterior, the less the algae will grow. Also bristlenose are your friend. We have them in all the tanks and they've cut down the glass cleaning massively.

I'm thinking about a small tank of flame guppies somewhere...saw them in a branch of Maidenhead Aquatics and they are truly spectacular. Small fish aren't usually my thing either!
		
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My bristlenose bred, then bred again and again.  I had to get two new tanks to house bristlenose babies.  They eat every plant bar anubias, even Java fern.  Bless 'em.


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## 9tails (13 January 2016)

MargotC said:



			Thanks!

I am quite interested in the maintenance aspect of things and I certainly have time to crack on with maintaining a tank, so after consideration I don't think eventually keeping a shoal of ten as you say is an unreasonable goal for me.

I've had a lot of fun wading through opinions on stocking. Everywhere you look it says differently, even with the tiniest species. 

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One of my tanks is about the same size as yours, I have three juvenile bristlenose, two Julii catfish and 5 cherry barbs.  With loads of plants.


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## MargotC (13 January 2016)

Sounds awesome.  Reassuring for my thoughts about size and stocking, too. I don't think I am confident enough to keep multiple species - yet. Before I know it I might be up to my eyeballs in tanks... there are so many pretty fish.

I had a thrilling afternoon picking up three massive boxes at the PO today. Now I just need to assemble the stand for the tank. Me being me this could take a day or two. Thank God it is not something from IKEA. 

Will probably have to put off going to pick plants as we're having a ridiculously cold period and I don't want to risk damaging them during transport!


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## Nudibranch (15 January 2016)

9tails said:



			My bristlenose bred, then bred again and again.  I had to get two new tanks to house bristlenose babies.  They eat every plant bar anubias, even Java fern.  Bless 'em.
		
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Oh, thats a shame!  Ours dont seem to bother with the plants; we have amazon swords, giant vallis, java fern, etc. Then again the plants are secondary to the fish, so maybe in a properly planted tank bristlenose might be too risky.


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## Ormsweird (15 January 2016)

My bristlenoses have never bothered with the plants either!


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## Ormsweird (9 February 2016)

One of my little guys was feeling photogenic this morning:


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## 9tails (9 February 2016)

Nudibranch said:



			Oh, thats a shame!  Ours dont seem to bother with the plants; we have amazon swords, giant vallis, java fern, etc. Then again the plants are secondary to the fish, so maybe in a properly planted tank bristlenose might be too risky.
		
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When you literally have upwards of 50 little bristles plus parents, gramps, aunts and uncles, you can't feed them enough without polluting the water as they're grazers.  The best things I've found are lettuce and cucumber.  There certainly isn't a speck of algae in my tank.


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## MargotC (9 February 2016)

Love that picture. 

To briefly update on my current tank status:

No fish in yet. I've been (and am) sick.

Water testing confirmed I have very soft water (pH at 6,4 with GH and KH both at 1° on the German scale).

Obviously I had to rethink my initial stocking hopes. I will replace the current gravel for sand, source a Redmoor root, order floating plants, and attempt a blackwater biotope. Since I'm having to redo the tank, cycling never really got underway (I had just started when a few expensive technical problems arose alongside me being ill and I decided to leave it until sorted).

Final stocking is subject to availability, but current shortlist alternatives (as these are available here via order) are

- Boraras brigittae
- Microdevario kubotai
- Hyphessobrycon amandae
- Corydoras pygmaeus

Ideally a shoal of one of the first two alongside the pygmy cories.

I have a slightly longer list of species I'd like to keep eventually, but sourcing those are a bit trickier. I have fallen head over heels for the Hypancistrus zebra, for instance, and if (when!) I get a bigger tank these will feature. The B. brigittae seller also sells shrimp which I will look into when I have a well-established tank.

Since the tank won't have the colours I initially hoped for, I am considering setting up a second tank, a 40-litre or so, for a Betta splendens since I have the right parameters. I can't get my hands on that many variations of Betta here, but the blue ones are available and beautiful. I might get the Betta first, let him have the 63-litre until the second is up and running, and then finish my blackwater biotope. We shall see.


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## Ormsweird (9 February 2016)

Shame about your original plans. I used to import my betta from Thailand and you can get some amazing examples there. The process wasn't too arduous but you pay a decent price per fish! But you need to deal with an importer. Complicated, but it was well worth it for the fancy boys.

I also have  a shoal of pygmy cories in my tank with my shrimp currently. Love the little guys.


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## MargotC (9 February 2016)

Ormsweird said:



			Shame about your original plans. I used to import my betta from Thailand and you can get some amazing examples there. The process wasn't too arduous but you pay a decent price per fish! But you need to deal with an importer. Complicated, but it was well worth it for the fancy boys.

I also have  a shoal of pygmy cories in my tank with my shrimp currently. Love the little guys.
		
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I'll freely admit I was disappointed at first. On the bright side I am realising the soft water gives me more stocking options even if they are not quite what I wanted... I have spent hours trawling the 'net for fish that fit my parameters and tank size and there are a fair few now tucked away in my bookmarks. 

I did look at an online fish auction site - was it Aquabid? - and some of the Betta breeders seem to ship here. However that was where I fell off as it got complicated to navigate... apparently you have to contact an importer before buying? I was intimidated (especially since dealing with live fish) so I think for my first purchase I will have to look to my LFS and his supplier. Obviously a little while off yet but I'm thinking ahead and being sick means I have a lot of time to browse online.

The pygmy cories have really grown on me. I admit I would get a little bored with just one species in the tank, so I think they will compliment whichever other shoaling species I go for beautifully. They aren't the most colourful but they are adorable (if fish can be adorable).


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## Ormsweird (9 February 2016)

Yes, I used to buy on aquabid, there are some stunners on there! The importer wasn't ever a problem to deal with to be honest, most sellers list which importers they use to each country.  You just get in touch and check when shipping dates are. If you buy a fish you tell the seller which importer and they tend to arrange from there. My importer was very good, kept up to date with messages etc. Fish always arrived fine.

I tend to buy online from the UK too. Quite a few breeders will post fish, and it's how I recently restocked my shrimp too.


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## MargotC (9 February 2016)

Ormsweird said:



			Yes, I used to buy on aquabid, there are some stunners on there! The importer wasn't ever a problem to deal with to be honest, most sellers list which importers they use to each country.  You just get in touch and check when shipping dates are. If you buy a fish you tell the seller which importer and they tend to arrange from there. My importer was very good, kept up to date with messages etc. Fish always arrived fine.

I tend to buy online from the UK too. Quite a few breeders will post fish, and it's how I recently restocked my shrimp too.
		
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I am tempted to give it a go eventually. I love the Bettas with the copper gene, is that what it is called? And to get one I'd have to buy online for sure as all I see here are the solid blue, or red, veiltails. Ideally I'd like one with copper colouring and a shorter type tail. I'd like a sturdy fish. Of course there are so many beautiful ones I'll surely consider multiple tanks at some point. Oops.

I also like the look of a few of the wild Betta types. I don't consider myself experienced enough to attempt those yet, but a couple would be nice someday.


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## Ormsweird (9 February 2016)

Sounds like you want a copper plakat, fiesty little fish. 

I was a big fan of rosetails myself. I love the really long fins. And yes, I ended up with about 15 tanks in the height of my betta obsession. Also a large fresh water full of females, who these days can also be colourful and kept together if they have enough space.


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## MargotC (9 February 2016)

Ormsweird said:



			Sounds like you want a copper plakat, fiesty little fish. 

I was a big fan of rosetails myself. I love the really long fins. And yes, I ended up with about 15 tanks in the height of my betta obsession. Also a large fresh water full of females, who these days can also be colourful and kept together if they have enough space.
		
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Yes! I think that was it. There are so many strains/names/descriptions to wrap my head around and I'm struggling with the latin names for my 63-litre stocking already.

Fifteen tanks... sounds like heaven. I think the most I can fit into my flat is another three tanks alongside the 63-litre, but they'd obviously have to be between 30 and 40 litres each at most. I'm thinking one quarantine, and one or two Betta tanks. I guess this is what they mean by multiple tank syndrome.


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## Ormsweird (9 February 2016)

Yes, the husband just gave up after a certain point as more tanks appeared. I kept my betta in 20 litres each, so not too big. But still noticeable! Plenty of plants to hide in too. I used to love watching them build bubble nests! Shame I never could breed them, but I'd have hundreds if I had!


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