# Bute & laminitis?



## Bryndu (9 June 2013)

Hi all,
To those of you who are knowledgeable about this horrid condition....
Why would Laminitis not repsond to the recommended dose of bute?
Any thoughts gratefully received.
Best wishes
Bryndu


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## pottamus (9 June 2013)

Well it is not just a case of giving bute when it is laminitis. You need to treat the condition in many ways - looking at the diet and level of sugar, whether the horse has sufficient bedding to act as a cushion to support, shoeing or otherwise needs, the cause of the laminitis in the first place, the horses ability to cope and be calm on box rest, how much movement the horse is doing in the stable and whether there is rotation of the pedal bone and how much. 
Bute wont fix the problem per se, only help the horse in terms of pain...so maybe talk to your vet about all of this and the dose of bute?


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## Bryndu (9 June 2013)

Thanks Pottamus,
Sorry I was possibly not clear enough.
Everything all in place re Laminitis.....bed, hay soaked etc......but vet and I concerned that the Pro Dynam...at quite a high dose....is not really helping with the pain management. 
We are beginning to believe it may not be laminitis. Not really sure what to do
Best wishes
Bryndu.


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## touchstone (10 June 2013)

Bryndu said:



			Thanks Pottamus,
Sorry I was possibly not clear enough.
Everything all in place re Laminitis.....bed, hay soaked etc......but vet and I concerned that the Pro Dynam...at quite a high dose....is not really helping with the pain management. 
We are beginning to believe it may not be laminitis. Not really sure what to do
Best wishes
Bryndu.
		
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The pain from laminitis can be excruciating, I'd ask the vet to try alternatives if the horse isn't responding to bute, there is finadyne and metacam that may be suitable and more effective.  ACP can be useful too.


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## amandap (10 June 2013)

It may be the hay is very high in sugars. Soak it for 12 hours then change the water and soak again and then rinse. I have found the second soak only needs to be an hour or two but it must be fresh water. If this helps within three to four days, source another hay supply if possible. I have had batches of hay actually produce laminitis in my prone pony and the double soaking has helped.
I suggest you follow this diet to the letter and feed nothing else at all. Sorry if you are already. http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet

The pain comes from inflammation so that's what you need to get under control in laminitis.

Just ideas. Fingers crossed for you and if it isn't laminitis I hope you get to the bottom of it.

ps. You must soak in fresh water each time anyway. Apols if I'm teaching my Grandma... but I've read of water being used more than once.


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## YasandCrystal (10 June 2013)

My mare was on 4 bute, Sedalin and 20 paracetomol a day for her pain management when she had laminitis. That and a really deep bed made her comfortable. I also used magnetic hoof boots. I soaked her hay for 12 hours before feeding.


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## JillA (10 June 2013)

One we had here had developed pockets of gas under the hoof wall resulting from the inflammation, and by that stage no amount of anti inflammatories is going to help. They x rayed, identified where the voids were and drilled holes in the hoof wall to release the build up of gas. If you are at the stage where bute doesn't help I would think x rays would be needed to see what is going on - has your vet suggested them?


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## Wagtail (10 June 2013)

touchstone said:



			The pain from laminitis can be excruciating, I'd ask the vet to try alternatives if the horse isn't responding to bute, there is finadyne and metacam that may be suitable and more effective.  ACP can be useful too.
		
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This ^^. Pain from acute laminitis is so severe that sometimes bute does not appear to touch the pain, though rest assured it would be even worse without it. ACP (or sedalin) increases circulation and helps healing too.

If your horse is still in a lot of pain, then I would be getting xrays done.


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## Bryndu (10 June 2013)

touchstone said:



			The pain from laminitis can be excruciating, I'd ask the vet to try alternatives if the horse isn't responding to bute, there is finadyne and metacam that may be suitable and more effective.  ACP can be useful too.
		
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Thanks Touchstone.....I think this makes me feel better....
Best wishes
Bryndu


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## Bryndu (10 June 2013)

amandap said:



			It may be the hay is very high in sugars. Soak it for 12 hours then change the water and soak again and then rinse. I have found the second soak only needs to be an hour or two but it must be fresh water. If this helps within three to four days, source another hay supply if possible. I have had batches of hay actually produce laminitis in my prone pony and the double soaking has helped.
I suggest you follow this diet to the letter and feed nothing else at all. Sorry if you are already. http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-diet

The pain comes from inflammation so that's what you need to get under control in laminitis.

Just ideas. Fingers crossed for you and if it isn't laminitis I hope you get to the bottom of it.

ps. You must soak in fresh water each time anyway. Apols if I'm teaching my Grandma... but I've read of water being used more than once.
		
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Thanks amandap......any advice always appreciated.
Am doing the hay thing.....possibly not for long enough soaking...so thanks for that....and I had a look at ther diet...and the only thing missing is the salt.....he only has hay anyway.
Really grateful for this.
Best wishes
Bryndu


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## Bryndu (10 June 2013)

YasandCrystal said:



			My mare was on 4 bute, Sedalin and 20 paracetomol a day for her pain management when she had laminitis. That and a really deep bed made her comfortable. I also used magnetic hoof boots. I soaked her hay for 12 hours before feeding.
		
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Thanks Yasand Crystal.....as said above....I don't think I am soaking for long enough.
He is on excellent easibed deep bed.
Thank you
Best wishes
Bryndu


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## ihatework (10 June 2013)

What do the horses x-rays show?


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## Bryndu (10 June 2013)

Jill and Wagtail,
Thank you both for your responses...
I had xrays done last week....he had perfect xrays....angles.....not thin sole.....no separation.....so they were fine.....
I am going to try soaking for longer and take it from there.....
I feel awful.....feeling sick most of the time because I don't know what it is and I don't know how to help him...
Thank you so much for your advice.
Best wishes
Bryndu


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## amandap (11 June 2013)

Laminitis is horrible for both horse and owner. x Hope you get her more comfortable and get to the bottom of it all.


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## lachlanandmarcus (11 June 2013)

Bryndu said:



			Jill and Wagtail,
Thank you both for your responses...
I had xrays done last week....he had perfect xrays....angles.....not thin sole.....no separation.....so they were fine.....
I am going to try soaking for longer and take it from there.....
I feel awful.....feeling sick most of the time because I don't know what it is and I don't know how to help him...
Thank you so much for your advice.
Best wishes
Bryndu
		
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My vet said that bute (specifically) was not good for laminitis for any length of time as it restricted blood flow to the hoof structures, so that's another reason maybe to look at other pain management drugs if they aren't similar to bute in that way. NB that's not to say bute isn't very useful for many lami horses in the first few days, just that it isnt a good idea to keep them on it as soon as you can get them off it.


You are a good owner doing the right things and giving your horse everything you can to help them, if theres no X-ray problem then pain management might be the key to allow the horse to be comfy enough to start to recover, I hope peeps suggestions on here help, please do update us on progress and news. And try not to worry, horse needs you to be well and happy so they can rely on you as they recover (I know its really hard!)


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## Bryndu (11 June 2013)

lachlanandmarcus said:



			My vet said that bute (specifically) was not good for laminitis for any length of time as it restricted blood flow to the hoof structures, so that's another reason maybe to look at other pain management drugs if they aren't similar to bute in that way. NB that's not to say bute isn't very useful for many lami horses in the first few days, just that it isnt a good idea to keep them on it as soon as you can get them off it.


You are a good owner doing the right things and giving your horse everything you can to help them, if theres no X-ray problem then pain management might be the key to allow the horse to be comfy enough to start to recover, I hope peeps suggestions on here help, please do update us on progress and news. And try not to worry, horse needs you to be well and happy so they can rely on you as they recover (I know its really hard!)
		
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Thanks you lachlanandmarcus for your interesting news about bute....and your kind words.
A little update - he seems to be a lot more comfortable today....
Mrs vet is coming tomorrow so I shall discuss about the bute....Mrs vet is as flumoxed as myself.....
I also have a Bowen treatment for him this week.....just in case it may be nerve/skeletal related.....wierdly...when he lies down....which is not often....he lies on his tummy with his near fore out in front.....and all the others tucked tidily underneath....

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to give their advice...it is hugely appreciated.
Best wishes
Bryndu


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## Bryndu (11 June 2013)

amandap said:



			Laminitis is horrible for both horse and owner. x Hope you get her more comfortable and get to the bottom of it all.
		
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Thank you amandap for your kind words.
Best wishes
Bryndu


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## touchstone (11 June 2013)

Glad to hear he seems more comfortable, hopefully you are starting to get over the worst now and can focus on his recovery.


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## Bryndu (11 June 2013)

touchstone said:



			Glad to hear he seems more comfortable, hopefully you are starting to get over the worst now and can focus on his recovery.
		
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Thank you
Best wishes
Bryndu


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## tristar (11 June 2013)

we used old macs hoof boots with prolite pads cut out inside, when able to come out of box, it worked very well because the horse could take exercise in comfort and the moving around helped a lot.

hope you get some peace of mind soon xx


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## amandap (11 June 2013)

Bryndu said:



			Thank you amandap for your kind words.
Best wishes
Bryndu
		
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Sorry I called him, her. My laminitic pony is a mare. I'm glad he's is more comfortable and I so hope this continues.


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## Bryndu (11 June 2013)

tristar said:



			we used old macs hoof boots with prolite pads cut out inside, when able to come out of box, it worked very well because the horse could take exercise in comfort and the moving around helped a lot.

hope you get some peace of mind soon xx
		
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Hi tristar.....that is excellent thanks.....
I am lucky that I have a rubber surfaced arena so can try the boots and walk him to the surface for extra comfort.

Best wishes
Bryndu


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## Bryndu (11 June 2013)

amandap said:



			Sorry I called him, her. My laminitic pony is a mare. I'm glad he's is more comfortable and I so hope this continues.
		
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No worries......he dosen't mind.....it was how you said what you did that mattered.....thank you.. 
Hope your girl is ok.
Best wishes
Bryndy


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## Rjd84 (12 June 2013)

My horse is currently recovering from a bout of laminitis. Spotted early so was straight off the grass onto deep bed and soaked hay, was quite 'pottery' on his feet, but no heat, no bounding pulses. Gave him bute twice a day for 4 days, made no difference to his appearance at all so dropped it & continued with box rest and soaked hay and now - 3 weeks later he seems much better. Now walks out on concrete almost sound, still a little lame in one foot but progressing well. Last year he was lame in his hock, spent thousands at the vets trying to establish cause, bute didn't seem to make any difference to him then and he spontaneously got better with time, so i dont think bute works for him!
is it possible that bute has no effect for some horses?
I know from experience that Laminitis is different in every horse, and what works is different for each. just trial and error but i know how it feels to have a horse with lamintis, awful disease. Hope he recovers very soon.


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## Bryndu (12 June 2013)

Rjd84 said:



			My horse is currently recovering from a bout of laminitis. Spotted early so was straight off the grass onto deep bed and soaked hay, was quite 'pottery' on his feet, but no heat, no bounding pulses. Gave him bute twice a day for 4 days, made no difference to his appearance at all so dropped it & continued with box rest and soaked hay and now - 3 weeks later he seems much better. Now walks out on concrete almost sound, still a little lame in one foot but progressing well. Last year he was lame in his hock, spent thousands at the vets trying to establish cause, bute didn't seem to make any difference to him then and he spontaneously got better with time, so i dont think bute works for him!
is it possible that bute has no effect for some horses?
I know from experience that Laminitis is different in every horse, and what works is different for each. just trial and error but i know how it feels to have a horse with lamintis, awful disease. Hope he recovers very soon.
		
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Hi Rjd84...thanks for this.
You make an interesting point. 
This is the first time my boy has ever had bute....and it may well be it affects horses indifferent ways.
I had another horse..who had lymphatic issues and he would be pain free on the tiniest amount of bute....I shall ask Mrs vet.
Interestingly.....someone had mentioned feeding Epsom Salts to help what they called 'Grass Laminitis' which gives all the horrid symptoms without the disaterous consequences...and which horse recover quickly from. 
I gave him some yesterday.....and I don't know if it is pure coincidence....but he is 100% improved....maybe there is something to it?
I wish you all the best with your horse....and thanks for your kind words.
Best wishes
Bryndu


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## Bryndu (12 June 2013)

Update...
Mrs vet REALLY pleased with his progress......now happy in stable on his feet.....
Took him for a VERY short walk and turn around...and I have to say massive improvement...
He has a much happier face today
So...yesterday was his last 'bute' day (24 hrs is up at luch today).....and although I have 'emergency' bute....she has asked to try him without.....as he is so improved...I totally forgot to have the conversation about different painkillers der....so will ring her and ask.....but hopefully he won't need any...
So....keep everything crossed....
She had also taken a blood sample to check for any signs of infection...and thankfully his WBC was excellent. However....his RBC is quite low.....so he is going to have a heamoglobin boost.....well....if I can get it anywhere near him.....he cannot even stand the smell......and raspberry jam (sugar free) has been recommended!.
He is still confined to quarters.....but seems happy with that...and Bowen treatment tomorrow.
Thanks everyone for your help....I will keep you posted.
Best wishes
Bryndu


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## AprilsBoy (12 June 2013)

My horse has laminitis around 2 years ago but couldn't have bute due to stomach problems so the vet prescribed him Gabapentin which is a human pain relief. Gabapentin, deep bed, soaked hay and frog supports did wonders for mine


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## EAST KENT (12 June 2013)

My mare started a bad Lami attack at the start of Feb due to a too rich reel of hayledge.It took three months of box rest plus bute etc,then the bute started her to colic,so she was turned out on a bare paddock.The bruising from the original attack is now growing down through the sole.She is moving freely now,in heartbar shoes,but will not be worked until she is absolutely ready.After the initial three months I think movement has helped a lot.


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## amandap (12 June 2013)

Bryndu said:



			Update...
Mrs vet REALLY pleased with his progress......now happy in stable on his feet.....
Took him for a VERY short walk and turn around...and I have to say massive improvement...
He has a much happier face today
So...yesterday was his last 'bute' day (24 hrs is up at luch today).....and although I have 'emergency' bute....she has asked to try him without.....as he is so improved...I totally forgot to have the conversation about different painkillers der....so will ring her and ask.....but hopefully he won't need any...
So....keep everything crossed....
She had also taken a blood sample to check for any signs of infection...and thankfully his WBC was excellent. However....his RBC is quite low.....so he is going to have a heamoglobin boost.....well....if I can get it anywhere near him.....he cannot even stand the smell......and raspberry jam (sugar free) has been recommended!.
He is still confined to quarters.....but seems happy with that...and Bowen treatment tomorrow.
Thanks everyone for your help....I will keep you posted.
Best wishes
Bryndu
		
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Great news, well done and my fingers are firmly crossed. x


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## lachlanandmarcus (12 June 2013)

My fingers crossed too, so pleased things are looking up big time )) hope it continues!!


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