# How do you improve submission in a dominant horse?



## Andiamo (1 October 2012)

Does anyone have any pearls of wisdom on how to improve submission in a dominant horse? i.e. acceptance of the bridle etc? 

My boy has regressed this week and been an absolute plonker. He is spooking and napping for England, and has become very very difficult to ride...I changed yards about 2 weeks ago and it has really upset him. In the arena, he wants to throw his head up to gawk at things in trot and canter, and I'm having none of it, and well, we've fallen out over it  he's half passing due to spooking, he's changing direction in canter in mid-air without being asked (because he doesn't want to go past something). 

I want him to slow down in canter - he currently gallops around the place like his backside is on fire, and he ignores my half halts, tweaks (then yanks) on the outside rein to slow down to bring it back to a canter - I have to lean back and give an almighty heave-ho on both reins to pull him in and slow him down - the slower canter lasts for about 3 strides then he's off to the races again. He's meant to be a dressage horse, not a race horse or an eventer - although we look like both of these when we're hurtling around at top speed. No amount of transitions helps. I do a lot of relaxation work with him at the start of each session. I'm very consistent. He gets variety in his week, every week. He's turned out from 7am - 3:30pm each day. Feed is fine and hasn't changed. Back is fine, saddle is fine, tack has not changed, teeth are fine. 
It's just the change in yards that has got his big man-pants in an uproar...well that, and the field of hairy and amorous Highland cows & bulls which live one field away from the arena. 


*Should I: *
- ride really strong / tough no matter what he does to show I won't stand for it? and just give more time for him to settle?
- let a pro ride him for a couple of days to sort him out, get him to be more respectful and submissive? 

I'm a fairly experienced rider, I've been through a lot of ups and downs with this horse, and therefore I'd prefer to sort it out myself, rather than hand him over to someone else who may / may not be able to improve things. 
I would appreciate any tips you might have. 

Thanks in advance!


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## Mearas (1 October 2012)

IMHO your horse sounds very anxious and stressed by his move. I really don't think that riding him strongly would help, it would just add more stress and more anxiety.  TBH I think putting a pro (strange rider) on would again just make him more stressed and more dominant.

May I suggest that for a while you go back a few steps. Just walk him so he has time to take in his new surroundings. You can work him in shoulder in, travers, renvers etc. on the straight or on circles, which will occupy his mind so he won't want to take charge and keep him interested. But, it should not stress him to much until he has dealt with the overload of new smells, sights, sounds, horses, people, activity, routine etc. it will just help to keep him supple and fit until his brain has dealt with all the new information he is taking in.


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## Andiamo (1 October 2012)

Thanks Mearas. The problem is, that every time we go to a show, his behaviour is exactly like this as well. I would like to push him through it, and show him that he can be brave, things are not as scary as he thinks, and also that he needs to respect me as his rider. Yeah, putting a different rider on him will just introduce inconsistency and will make him more anxious, which I worry about.  
He needs to deal with his new environment - he's ok to turn out / bring in, groom, he's happy in his box. He's ok to walk around in hand in the arena. 
He has a very high energy level, and it needs to be burned off with work, otherwise his behaviour gets worse, so I couldn't just walk for a few days, he'd lose the plot altogether. He is an intelligent, active horse that needs daily work. 
But he also needs to be submissive, and must accept the bridle. It's also where he loses marks in tests at show venues. It's an overall problem, not just specifically related to change of yard.


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## AusRider (2 October 2012)

Hi OP, I had a horse something like yours, and had to move him to a new place. He behaved much like yours did and he should have known better - he was a 22yo ex-1* eventer after all! For example, the first few times I rode him at the new place, I made sure I had a plan in place. First 'ride' consisted of lunging for 20 min or so, then a 5 min ride under saddle, just walking around, then end on a good note. Second ride was 10 min lunging, and then into our usual 45 min schooling session. Third ride I would not lunge, but get straight on and school for 45 min or so. It helps to have a plan in place for when he has decided that he isn't going to be cooperative.

After he had become used to our new place, then there were other things I would do if he decided he wasn't going to play. One time, he was coming back into work and I wasn't able to lunge him, so his jump saddle went on, and we did 20m canter circles, then medium canter on the straight, into another canter circle, repeat, for 20 minutes. After he calmed down somewhat, we then repeated the exercise in trot with 10m circles  and medium trot on the straight. Subsitute whatever exercises work for your pony . Its important to set you and the horse up for success so that you feel good about the session, and so does the horse.

In your case, I would look for a few exercises under saddle that will help your horse burn off the anxious energy that he has, and help him to turn his mind back onto the job.

Hope this helps.


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## cptrayes (2 October 2012)

He isn't a chestnut KWPN by any chance is he  ?

Mine was identical. He wouldn't even hack, he was too scared of daffodils on the verge 
I'm afraid mine took 6 years to calm down, then he died!

They key to mine was that at eight I spent three months doing transitions or turns, anything to make him realise that he simply had to focus on me, every ten strides or less. That worked, but it was a difficult three months! He was also completely uncontrollable in a snaffle, so was always ridden in a double to school or he would leave the arena either through or over the fence. If you have decent hands, don't be afraid to go for a double and compete at elementary.

If you are sure he has settled in the new home on  the ground, then I would try the "change every ten strides" training and see what happens. I am sure it was the key to mine.


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## Andiamo (2 October 2012)

@AusRider -  thanks for this. Yes, I have been doing something similar, have been lunging him before starting. Two days ago, he was being such a nutter, that I had to get off and lunge him for twenty minutes to burn off his frantic panicked energy. Then I got back on, he was still uncooperative, but at least I'd gotten some of the nonsense (bronc'ing) out of him on the lunge. 

@cptrayes - nope, not a KWPN  goodness, yours sounded like a handful! - mine doesn't hack either, you'd take your life in your hands to hack him. I have generously offered other people to hack him, but haven't had any takers yet  (I even included the loan of a Point 2 airvest for the duration of the hack), but still no takers 

The double bridle is a good idea, I might borrow one from someone to try it. I have experience using a double, and it might subdue him somewhat, as I know it is good for strong wilful horses. It would give some control back to me, as he  is giving me the two fingers up in a snaffle (he is in a really mild bit - which offers no control). 
I will also try the "every ten strides" trick. I generally do mix it up, I've been doing varying sizes of circles in canter - down to a ten meter circle, then leg yield out onto 20 meter, trot leg yield across the school, shoulder in - in walk and trot, changes of tempo within the pace (lots of these), lots of serpentines, centre lines. I just lose all his concentration no matter what, i.e. when we go past a certain point in the school (the gap in the trees where he can see the Highland cattle), and if a horse/rider walks by outside the school, if a bird flies by and looks at him, - and if there is anyone standing by the side of the arena he won't go near them. So, all the exercises I do are limited by the fact that he will suddenly stick his head up and pee off sideways at top speed. 

I do feel a change of bit is imminent, he is taking the mick in the bit he's in. 

We did some big arguments last night, he did get some jabs from me with spurs when he tried to spook into the school, and progressively throughout the session, it started to get better, and his attempts were half-hearted by the end of it, and we were using the whole school (Yay!)


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (2 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			He isn't a chestnut KWPN by any chance is he  ?

Mine was identical. He wouldn't even hack, he was too scared of daffodils on the verge 
I'm afraid mine took 6 years to calm down, then he died!

They key to mine was that at eight I spent three months doing transitions or turns, anything to make him realise that he simply had to focus on me, every ten strides or less. That worked, but it was a difficult three months! He was also completely uncontrollable in a snaffle, so was always ridden in a double to school or he would leave the arena either through or over the fence. If you have decent hands, don't be afraid to go for a double and compete at elementary.

If you are sure he has settled in the new home on  the ground, then I would try the "change every ten strides" training and see what happens. I am sure it was the key to mine.
		
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decent hands is one of only hundreds of things you should have before competing at elementary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!or in fact competing full stop!

CS is dominant in a different way (never strong or impolite in the contact) but IMO for your horse-even if the double works in the short term, long term he will find a way round it because thats what dominant horses do, he wont take it laying down even if it takes him a few weeks to work out how to evade it, he will eventually work it out.
you cannot use brute strength, you have to out think him thus i would leave the double well alone currently.
The double has its place and indeed some horses PREFER it,and you are on to a loser if the horse is already well used to the double, but i dont think thats the case here? he's not chosing it, or even going to work well in it, he's simply going to be contained by it, which is rather different!

Ausrider has good suggestions and i second the having a routine/plan idea-CS likes to know that we do the same warm up every time, even at a show or a lesson, he likes to feel he knows whats coming up, no suprises.

if he barges or rushes, halt, rein back/walk piri/turn on forehand, pat, and then trot or canter on-make it clear that there are consequences to his actions but these are firm and fair and corrective not aggressive.

CS is the opposite and will stop and threaten to rear, he doesnt even shoot off, so for him, any lag in response and he is made to do a good strong medium canter or medium trot then collected, then sent forward and the quick response praised.


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## Alfami (2 October 2012)

I feel your pain, but I also think this is a difficult one to answer, because only you know your horse and how he's likely to react to any of the suggestions above.

I personally think the 'do something different every ten strides' is a good idea.  I took it one stage further with mine (with help from an excellent instructor) and each 'different thing' was something that he wasn't expecting and to some extent was designed to make him unbalanced - so he had to concentrate on me, or he'd have fallen over!  The idea is basically to make him think 'what the F@** does this mad woman want NOW'!!!  They quite quickly learn to listen and concentrate.

A good exercise for mine, was to ride a 10/12m trot circle (or walk if you prefer), then, as you start the second circle (ie you've ridden 1 1/2 normal 10m circles) change direction and start another 10m circle.  You end up doing a series of 1 and a half 10m circles along a long side.  (I reall hope that makes sense!) Depending on how well schooled he is, you can also do shoulder-in one one rein and change it into leg yield away from the other leg.  Do anything you can to, effectively, knock him 'off balance', so that he has to think about being in balance rather than spooking.  Rapid, unexpected changes of rein work too.  Trot a diagonal, say off the left rein.  Normally you'd turn right at the end - don't, turn left back onto the track, then go straight across the school instead.  Anything unpredicatble will work, but plan it otherwise you'll end up wearing the arena fence!

There are some equally devious exercises for canter too, but the same principle applies - surprise him!

Good luck.


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## Polotash (2 October 2012)

Personally I'd stick him on the lunge for 20 mins before you ride him. A) this will take the edge off him B) it's a good lesson in respect for him because you are simply pushing him forward with the whip into the hand - nothing fancy and C) He'll be going round and round past the same spooky corner/ flower pot/ whatever else is spooking him and so should get used to it quicker.


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## Andiamo (2 October 2012)

all good points made above. Thanks everyone for your contribution. 
He's not ready for Elementary anyway, he can't even get up the flippin' centre line in a Prelim/Novice test without doing an airborn zigzag up it due to spooking... his lack of respect (he is distracted easily) & tension issues need to be addressed before he can move up at all. I have gotten the comment in a few tests now from judges about him not accepting the bridle. 

I need to capture and harness the nervous energy and turn it into expression and sparkle...the only way to do this is to be consequential... the Germans say "du musst Konsequent reiten" (I lived there for a few years, and was told this many times!) - basically - the rider must give a consequence for every action of the horse..., like Prince33Sp4rkle mentions in her post. Then they learn boundaries. 
To be honest, he was a little angel at the previous yard, he still did daily frequent spooks, but about 80-90% of the session was good. Right now, only about 20% of the session is good....


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## Supanova (2 October 2012)

Interesting thread!  I really think it depends on the individual horse - one of my mares is spooky like this and will spin round in canter and go in the other direction at times.  The more i try to ride her strongly, the worse she gets.  The only thing that works with her is relaxing and breathing and ignoring the spooks i.e. everytime i approach the spooky corner in the arena and i can feel her tensing, i just totally relax my body, breath and look round the corner so not looking at the spooky thing.  This seems to really help her but then i actually think she is genuinely a big wimp and is fairly terrified of everything so she then gets confidence from me.  If she was just being dominant and difficult i'm not sure it would have the same impact.  Also, everytime she tries to run off, i make her halt and stand still for 10 seconds - this seems to work.


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## Andiamo (2 October 2012)

In my experience, a Pro uses their strength, confidence and sheer bl**dy grit to make them behave, and go past things etc. It pushes the horse through something he finds difficult, and it works. 
A behavioral expert uses strategy. This works as well, if the owner is then shown how to handle the behaviour him/herself. 

My boy is very disrespectful of the bridle, gets distracted easily. I want to stop these behaviours. A dressage horse needs to show submission, be submissive. 
I think a combination of tactics is what is the key here...


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (2 October 2012)

i dont think its about strength that much- im around 7 stone 11 so could not use my strength to wrestle much in to submission at all......................i ride a very spooky horse for a client, comes round the corner every single time trying to hollow, throw quarters in and find somethign to spook at (when he will then fling head up again and spin, go disunited or crab sideways etc).

i keep circling, varying size, LY in and out, but keep coming past the corners of doom, keep putting him as round and deep as i need to have him to stop him peeping, and as soon as he drops behind my leg he gets a verbal command and a leg aid to go forward and every single time he stays soft and stays forward he is praised, i cannot use my strength but i DO have it in my head that he WILL answer every aid/request i give and that he WILL listen to me so perhaps in that way i am strong? i keep him very much between hand and leg but they are not forceful aids and as much as anything i think he senses the game is over and i aint gonna give in!


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## Supanova (2 October 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			i dont think its about strength that much- im around 7 stone 11 so could not use my strength to wrestle much in to submission at all......................i ride a very spooky horse for a client, comes round the corner every single time trying to hollow, throw quarters in and find somethign to spook at (when he will then fling head up again and spin, go disunited or crab sideways etc).

i keep circling, varying size, LY in and out, but keep coming past the corners of doom, keep putting him as round and deep as i need to have him to stop him peeping, and as soon as he drops behind my leg he gets a verbal command and a leg aid to go forward and every single time he stays soft and stays forward he is praised, i cannot use my strength but i DO have it in my head that he WILL answer every aid/request i give and that he WILL listen to me so perhaps in that way i am strong? i keep him very much between hand and leg but they are not forceful aids and as much as anything i think he senses the game is over and i aint gonna give in!
		
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I agree with this - I don't think Pros all just use strength and grit determination!  As Prince33Sp4rkle says its probably more about being totally consistent and very clear in what is right and wrong.


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## TheoryX1 (2 October 2012)

I am only a mere 'Happy Hacker', but I hope I can offer a little bit of advice.  Your poor boy sounds stressed by the move.  What about taking  a little pressure off of him with regard to schooling in the arena.  What about just doing some fun, no pressure activities for a little while, just so that he can chill out and relax.

When I moved to our current yard 6 years ago, my horse, who is a very dominant cob was just the same.  He was nappy, used to try and spin and bolt for home and I ended up using a pelham with double reins.  He also used to buck when asked to canter in the arena as well, and also charged at any jumps I asked him to jump.  I just gave him the time to settle, and eventually there was a change in his behaviour.  I also gave him lots and lots of turnout, which he did not have in his last yard, which he loves, and he is now a different horse - still frigging dominant though, but that is him.

Now I quickly re-read your thread - he doesnt hack?  Thats a hard one - is he ok in company with a safe, reliable horse - hell, where are you, I will come over with my mr super reliable on the roads, who is used by YO to hack out her youngsters etc.  He can make anyone feel comfortable, bless him.  Well what about lots of turnout, if you are able to do it, plus just what I call some 'quality horse time', ie lots of fuss, grooming, walking out in hand etc, just lots of chill out basically.   I would add that my horse would respond to the strong riding tactics,  as he is super dominant and not very sensitive either, but it would not work for everyone.

I hope it sorts itself out, and I know from experience its not nice for both you or the horse.  Good luck with it.


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## TarrSteps (2 October 2012)

Sorry, I'm going to have a pedantic moment. . .

"Dominance" theory doesn't really have a place in horse behaviour theory, it's drawn from Canine work - a very different social system - and even then there is a lot of debate about it's understanding and application as a basis for training.

What we refer to as "submission" in a dressage/ridden sense is not the opposite of dominance in the way it seems to be being discussed here - it's not about forcing the horse to behave in a particular way, it's about developing physical and mental ridability. Some of this is innate - hence why there are scores for aspects of it in testing - some of it comes through management, some through training, some through riding.

Honestly, the horse you are describing doesn't sound aggressive - there is no mention of him actively trying to attack you or bully you - he sounds freaked out and disinclined to listen to you.  You have to bring the structure and confidence to the situation, not just by forcing him to "relax" (that doesn't even work on people  ) but by working with him to lower his anxiety levels and dissipate his energy in productive ways.

Re the use of strength by professional or similar riders.  Yes, some people go this way, and some horses need to be firmly told.  Although even in those cases it's mental as much as physical and usually as much core strength - the ablity not to be affected by the horse's physical actions - rather than brute force.  What good pros really bring to the party though is confidence, skill and timing.  While you do see people having knock down, drag outs with horses, and sometimes it comes down to that, it is just as much about avoiding conflict and managing the horse's reactions.  Even the strongest rider will be overwhelmed by the average panicky or furious horse and most pros know it.  Knowing what to do, when, and being fit and strong enough to do it, even if the horse is not keen, is the ticket.

So yes, in that case, being strong enough to be confident even in adversity, might be a necessary skill.

But, OP, you admit that's not where you are right now so you will have to go another way with it. 

Just last week you were singing your horse's praises, yes?  And all that's changed since then is management, yes?  You are the same rider, he is the same horse. In his new situation is he getting the same food? Going out the same? Living in a similar level of activity?  Some horses simply require more manangement than others and, from all you've said, yours is one of those.  The thing with management is it's ongoing and constantly changing - if you change one thing you have to balance the system accordingly.  I think people might be schocked how closely managed many professional's horses are and, quite frankly, it's this as much as anything that makes people apply the term "professional's horses."

What routine have you established for success at shows?  My advice would be to apply that to this situation - given the management is the same - and make your work very consistent over the next couple of weeks.  Perhaps he needs to do something, even just a bit, every day until he settles?  Perhaps alternate longeing with riding days?  What about trying a calmer?  (I'm not convinced but many people seem to have success.) Even valerian?  Anything to help him lower his anxiety so you are able to work him enough and in a way that makes him tired and relaxed enough to come out better the next day.

Have you had a lesson since you've moved?  Sometimes that structure can help get things back on track and someone who knows the horse well can most accurately advise you on coping strategies.


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## cptrayes (2 October 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			decent hands is one of only hundreds of things you should have before competing at elementary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!or in fact competing full stop!
		
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No schitt Sherlock!  




			IMO for your horse-even if the double works in the short term, long term he will find a way round it because thats what dominant horses do, he wont take it laying down even if it takes him a few weeks to work out how to evade it, he will eventually work it out.
		
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Mine didn't, and was always happier in a curbed bit. I have another one now who is very unsettled if I put him in a snaffle and much prefers a curb bit. Some  horses just do.





			Ausrider has good suggestions and i second the having a routine/plan idea-CS likes to know that we do the same warm up every time, even at a show or a lesson, he likes to feel he knows whats coming up, no suprises.
		
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But the whole point is that out competing there are _always_ surprises. So the horse has to learn to listen to the rider even when there are surprises, which is why it can be effective to keep on surprising it at home, so it is used to it when it gets to shows.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (2 October 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			Sorry, I'm going to have a pedantic moment. . .

"Dominance" theory doesn't really have a place in horse behaviour theory, it's drawn from Canine work - a very different social system - and even then there is a lot of debate about it's understanding and application as a basis for training.

What we refer to as "submission" in a dressage/ridden sense is not the opposite of dominance in the way it seems to be being discussed here - it's not about forcing the horse to behave in a particular way, it's about developing physical and mental ridability. Some of this is innate - hence why there are scores for aspects of it in testing - some of it comes through management, some through training, some through riding.

Honestly, the horse you are describing doesn't sound aggressive - there is no mention of him actively trying to attack you or bully you - he sounds freaked out and disinclined to listen to you.  You have to bring the structure and confidence to the situation, not just by forcing him to "relax" (that doesn't even work on people  ) but by working with him to lower his anxiety levels and dissipate his energy in productive ways.

Re the use of strength by professional or similar riders.  Yes, some people go this way, and some horses need to be firmly told.  Although even in those cases it's mental as much as physical and usually as much core strength - the ablity not to be affected by the horse's physical actions - rather than brute force.  What good pros really bring to the party though is confidence, skill and timing.  While you do see people having knock down, drag outs with horses, and sometimes it comes down to that, it is just as much about avoiding conflict and managing the horse's reactions.  Even the strongest rider will be overwhelmed by the average panicky or furious horse and most pros know it.  Knowing what to do, when, and being fit and strong enough to do it, even if the horse is not keen, is the ticket.

So yes, in that case, being strong enough to be confident even in adversity, might be a necessary skill.

But, OP, you admit that's not where you are right now so you will have to go another way with it. 

Just last week you were singing your horse's praises, yes?  And all that's changed since then is management, yes?  You are the same rider, he is the same horse. In his new situation is he getting the same food? Going out the same? Living in a similar level of activity?  Some horses simply require more manangement than others and, from all you've said, yours is one of those.  The thing with management is it's ongoing and constantly changing - if you change one thing you have to balance the system accordingly.  I think people might be schocked how closely managed many professional's horses are and, quite frankly, it's this as much as anything that makes people apply the term "professional's horses."

What routine have you established for success at shows?  My advice would be to apply that to this situation - given the management is the same - and make your work very consistent over the next couple of weeks.  Perhaps he needs to do something, even just a bit, every day until he settles?  Perhaps alternate longeing with riding days?  What about trying a calmer?  (I'm not convinced but many people seem to have success.) Even valerian?  Anything to help him lower his anxiety so you are able to work him enough and in a way that makes him tired and relaxed enough to come out better the next day.

Have you had a lesson since you've moved?  Sometimes that structure can help get things back on track and someone who knows the horse well can most accurately advise you on coping strategies.
		
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bang on reply TS, you have far more eloquently conveyed the difference between brute strength and mental determination plus core strength, than me! I think you make a very valid point re some horses having to be closely managed and I have first hand experience of this with CS, nothing is left  to chance and every detail is raked over every day.



cptrayes said:



			No schitt Sherlock!  



Mine didn't, and was always happier in a curbed bit. I have another one now who is very unsettled if I put him in a snaffle and much prefers a curb bit. Some  horses just do.




But the whole point is that out competing there are _always_ surprises. So the horse has to learn to listen to the rider even when there are surprises, which is why it can be effective to keep on surprising it at home, so it is used to it when it gets to shows.
		
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sure fire way to unsettle an already unsettled horse even further-you build up the confidence at home and in training situations so that they can cope with the unexpected at shows, you dont keep throwing them (mentally) every day at home, you work in a logical structured way, laying strong building blocks so that the occasional blip or the rare occasion you accidentally go *over the limit* is not a problem.

Yes you have to train for suprises such as banners and music, but generally pro horses have a daily, weekly and monthly structure to their work that builds confidence in the rider and the work.
I dont know anyone (with decent BD results) who works on the theory of constantly chopping and changing and "suprising" the horse..........and its amazing how many people think that being able to wang round in a double=elem horse, despite scores (and indeed judges), bluntly, telling them otherwise  (OP i know that isnt what you think btw, just a general comment......)


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## Supanova (2 October 2012)

TarrSteps - fantastic post!!


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## Andiamo (2 October 2012)

@TarrSteps - I LOVE your response, in so many ways. Thank for taking the time to write that.




			So yes, in that case, being strong enough to be confident even in adversity, might be a necessary skill.
		
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- I am so determined to get through this, and to learn from the experience, that I will be thinking to myself each day: "be strong enough to be confident even in adversity". 




			Knowing what to do, when, and being fit and strong enough to do it, even if the horse is not keen, is the ticket.
		
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Spot on. 




			Just last week you were singing your horse's praises, yes?
		
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erm, yes  I didn't realise he was going to go backwards immediately after that post!!!




			I think people might be shocked how closely managed many professional's horses are and, quite frankly, it's this as much as anything that makes people apply the term "professional's horses."
		
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You're absolutely right about this, I've been on pro's yards in the past (top international grand prix riders), and their horses have a very strict routine which does not vary at all. 

I've been giving him Valerian daily for the past week, but it isn't taking the edge off. He was out at his previous yard 24/7 which he enjoyed. He is now out from 7am-3:30pm each day, which is a big reduction in outside time. I thought about going back onto grass livery, since he seems to prefer it, but now winter is coming, and I don't want him out in muddy, slippery flooded fields for health reasons. Also it is nice for him to be at night, warm, rugged, plenty to eat, shelter over his head. You're right though, it is a big change in routine, his turnout time has been halved. Feed is exactly the same, but the meadow hay is from a different batch / supplier. 

As for getting a lesson in, you're a mindreader - I've been trying to get hold of my trainer, a very very effective top G.P rider, who can sort things out in 5 minutes or less. I'll keep trying to get hold of her. 

Thanks again for the post.


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## Alfami (2 October 2012)

Just as a point of clarity, the surprises that I referred to in my post are mental versions, not really physical.  In other words, a 'difficult' horse needs a thinking rider - one who recognises the problem and responds today, not tomorrow with a positive reaction.

No, not brute strength, but being mentally one step ahead of the horse.  I agree with both PS and TarrSteps - all good advice.  I hope that PS isn't alluding to my 'surprises' being the problem.  But then again, this is a forum and I struggle to write down what my mind is thinking!


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## Polotash (2 October 2012)

Andiamo said:



			I thought about going back onto grass livery, since he seems to prefer it, but now winter is coming, and I don't want him out in muddy, slippery flooded fields for health reasons. Also it is nice for him to be at night, warm, rugged, plenty to eat, shelter over his head. You're right though, it is a big change in routine, his turnout time has been halved. Feed is exactly the same, but the meadow hay is from a different batch / supplier.
		
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Just one teeny tiny point. You say your horse prefers to be at grass, but then that it's nice for him to be in at night, warm, rugged etc. I think the "him" may need to say "me". 

His behaviour change might be down to change or yard, hay, routine, but it may also be because he prefers being out where he can let off steam.... IMO horses who are out 24/7 are less at risk of hooning about and damaging themselves because it's normal, not exciting for them. 

I'm not saying don't keep him in, I'm just saying keep an open mind, because if he carries on being tense you could maybe make him a lot happier by moving back to grass livery. It's kinder on your wallet too, what's not to like ;0)


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (2 October 2012)

Alfami said:



			Just as a point of clarity, the surprises that I referred to in my post are mental versions, not really physical.  In other words, a 'difficult' horse needs a thinking rider - one who recognises the problem and responds today, not tomorrow with a positive reaction.

No, not brute strength, but being mentally one step ahead of the horse.  I agree with both PS and TarrSteps - all good advice.  I hope that PS isn't alluding to my 'surprises' being the problem.  But then again, this is a forum and I struggle to write down what my mind is thinking!
		
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no no, didnt mean you!


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## Alfami (2 October 2012)

Good!  I didn't think you did but just wanted to make sure I hadn't been misinterpreted - dangerous things these forums!


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## ellie_e (2 October 2012)

I agree I would stay well clear of a double!!!! Have you tried some of the calmers available? Ive tried lots with mine who would spook and spin in every session, Im currently using Equifeast Cool Calm Collected Mag free and hes a changed horse, can even take him for a hack by himself which was un heard of before!!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (2 October 2012)

Alfami said:



			Good!  I didn't think you did but just wanted to make sure I hadn't been misinterpreted - dangerous things these forums! 

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ha ha they bite!

this: 
http://www.sciencesupplements.co.uk/Store/shopexd.asp?id=16

works well to take the edge of the spooky toad i ride, but doesnt make him dopey.....albeit i have warned his rider its more a schooling issue and a mental issue for her,and that she cant mask it forever with a calmer, but if it was dangerous this would def take the edge off.


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## Supanova (2 October 2012)

ellie_e said:



			I agree I would stay well clear of a double!!!! Have you tried some of the calmers available? Ive tried lots with mine who would spook and spin in every session, Im currently using Equifeast Cool Calm Collected Mag free and hes a changed horse, can even take him for a hack by himself which was un heard of before!!
		
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I echo the above - my mare has also been much improved since on Winning Edge Mag Free which is pretty much the same as the above!!


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## cptrayes (2 October 2012)

ellie_e said:



			I agree I would stay well clear of a double!!!!
		
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Why?

If the horse was to go right to the top it would have to compete in one. What's wrong with trying one, the horse may like it?


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## cptrayes (2 October 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			sure fire way to unsettle an already unsettled horse even further-you build up the confidence at home and in training situations so that they can cope with the unexpected at shows, you dont keep throwing them (mentally) every day at home, you work in a logical structured way, laying strong building blocks so that the occasional blip or the rare occasion you accidentally go *over the limit* is not a problem.
		
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I do not agree with you. If your horse spooks strange fillers at a show, you don't cure it by giving it a consistent warm-up, you cure it by letting it see more things like strange fillers at home.

If a horse is of a type which is constatly looking for danger, then the only cure is to stop him looking, which requires him focussing on something else - the rider.

Of course you do the logical, methodical training too, but my own experience of a hugely muscled, over-reactive and over-dominant warmblood is that he was immensely improved by training him to expect a changed of pace or direction at any possible moment. It trained him to focus on me for his next instruction and it radically improved his behaviour both at home and at competitions.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (2 October 2012)

actually you cure it by doing consistant logical work in and around fillers so the work becomes the comfort blanket and the horse learns to focus on that and not its surroundings.

you dont stop him looking, you train him not to want or need to do it, big difference.

at what level did said horse compete and how did he/she progress with that method of training? how did scores improve etc?


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## TarrSteps (2 October 2012)

If you're going to try a double speak to your trainer first. If it's merely a control issue she can advise you on what set up to try. If it's a motivation issue then it may not be the way to proceed. But please be careful. Earlier this year I tried a very mild leverage bridle on a generally very calm horse and he reacted in an unprecedented manner. We all survived - mostly because I had someone with me - but it certainly raised my blood pressure a few notches!

Also, discuss with your trainer the potential long term repercussions. I've seen short term/occasional use benefit a few horses but I've also had a couple to ride/reschool for lower level work that had become almost unridable in snaffles. Courses for horses!


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## Andiamo (2 October 2012)

Polotash said:



			Just one teeny tiny point. You say your horse prefers to be at grass, but then that it's nice for him to be in at night, warm, rugged etc. I think the "him" may need to say "me".
		
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Absolutely  I was thinking that as I wrote it  




			His behaviour change might be down to change or yard, hay, routine, but it may also be because he prefers being out where he can let off steam.... IMO horses who are out 24/7 are less at risk of hooning about and damaging themselves because it's normal, not exciting for them. 

I'm not saying don't keep him in, I'm just saying keep an open mind, because if he carries on being tense you could maybe make him a lot happier by moving back to grass livery. It's kinder on your wallet too, what's not to like ;0)
		
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I wouldn't mind him being out, I have enough turn out rugs for him. But then he wouldn't get his twice daily feeds, because I can't get there twice a day. I moved from DIY because I needed the extra help, also the mucking out and field poo-picking was killing my back (old riding injuries). If he goes back on grass, I will be back to having to poo pick (unless I can find someone to do and pay them). Grass livery definitely is kinder on the wallet. It also made him easier, and less stressed. Hmmm, must consider this option...


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## Andiamo (2 October 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			If you're going to try a double speak to your trainer first. If it's merely a control issue she can advise you on what set up to try. If it's a motivation issue then it may not be the way to proceed. But please be careful. Earlier this year I tried a very mild leverage bridle on a generally very calm horse and he reacted in an unprecedented manner. We all survived - mostly because I had someone with me - but it certainly raised my blood pressure a few notches!

Also, discuss with your trainer the potential long term repercussions. I've seen short term/occasional use benefit a few horses but I've also had a couple to ride/reschool for lower level work that had become almost unridable in snaffles. Courses for horses!
		
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My boy is very bit sensitive anyway. If I did try him in a double, there would be quite a lot of ground work in it before I would ever get on him. The thing is, that there are lots of issues to resolve at the lower levels, in which a double is not allowed. I'd like him to be a good boy, and behave well in a snaffle, and get good results for being good out at the lower levels, before introducing a double. Also, working in a double at home, and then using a snaffle at a show = change of tack before a comp - a situation I would rather avoid. 
Anyway, this discussion around snaffle versus double highlights the fact that maybe I need to investigate using a slightly stronger bit now, in order to have better control. He's been in a Level 1 Myler bit for some time now. Maybe it's time to get something else.


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## TarrSteps (2 October 2012)

What does he currently eat?


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## TarrSteps (2 October 2012)

And which Myler?


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## Andiamo (2 October 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			What does he currently eat?
		
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Allen & Page Fast Fibre - it's very low starch and grain free.


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## Andiamo (2 October 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			And which Myler?
		
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Myler Comfort - Baucher / hanging cheek - can be seen here: http://www.horsebithire.com/myler-comfort-baucher
"A Myler Level 1 Dressage Legal bit with the central revolving barrel in conjunction with the hanging cheek.  Very useful if your horse has a tendency to poke his nose and hollow. "


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## Gamebird (2 October 2012)

Slightly off topic, but the snaffle vs double debate for lower level horses has been raging recently on the BD forum. I suggest you take a look if you're interested or just fancy some entertainment. Some interesting contributions.

Having said which I now can't find it. It was definitely there the other day. My apologies. Most odd!


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## cptrayes (2 October 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			actually you cure it by doing consistant logical work in and around fillers so the work becomes the comfort blanket and the horse learns to focus on that and not its surroundings.

you dont stop him looking, you train him not to want or need to do it, big difference.
		
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There are horses who you could train not to spook at a particular filler who will spook at any new one that they see. The only thing that you can do with those horses is either never ever expose them to anything new, or train them to listen so closely to the rider that they stop looking for danger elsewhere.

You do actually need to jump the fillers too PS 

You describe this as "learnign to focus on the work" and I describe it as "learning to focus on the rider". I think we are talking about the same thing. 




			at what level did said horse compete and how did he/she progress with that method of training? how did scores improve etc?
		
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He had some points at elementary and we went immediately to Medium because the more I gave him to do the better behaved he was. He wasn't ready to produce a competitive performance at Medium so his scores are only mid 50's. He improved over the winter to a position where he would certainly have scored points at Medium, and had 3-time tempi changes and was close to passage and piaffe at home, but he had to be put down before he could compete this year 

He changed from being a horse who was impossible to keep in a warm-up or inside a dressage arena if he did not want to be there to one who managed to get Elementary points. It was the most enormous change.


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## siennamum (2 October 2012)

My youngster is a frustrating mix of dominant and anxious. I suppose he thinks he should take charge as I'm clearly a liability. 
If it is of use I do the following. 

If he is being aggressive on the ground - pulling faces behind me and thinking about 'rounding me up' in the field, I will make him back up and be absolutely zero tolerance on the ground with him. I know you are talking about how yours is in the arena, but I think a lack of respect will also manifest on the ground - even if you can't always spot it, and ground work will improve their ridden attitude.

I make sure he is happy. Sounds facile, but I know lots of unhappy horses, who have no social life, no fun & who aren't treated as individuals. I think it makes the difference between horses which are consistent & really try for you and those who are begrudging at best & just horrid generally. Horses like this need to be treated scrupulously fairly I think, mine will hold a grudge and I get payback if I have been unreasonable.

Mine wants me to be in complete control. He wants me to ride him like I stole him (or he thinks he does), he likes to be mentally stimulated and absolutely clear about what I want from him. He hates to be confused and exercises like CPTrayes one are ideal for him, he is busy and occupied. I refuse to let him rely on me completely and as he grows up he has to be more self sufficient, but more forceful riding would suit him very well all the time - sp long as it goes hand in hand with praise when he is good. It's when I am ambling along that he is plotting being naughty often.

I don't know if this is any use, but it's how I've come out the other side with mine.


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## ~ Clear Light ~ (2 October 2012)

Hey Andiamo,

I don't think he sounds "dominant" either, just rather exhuberant as nature has made him a hot and sensitive horse from what you've said who needs tactful riding and careful management. I always focus on the rider not the perceived problems with the horse. Routine wise you obviously know him best, have had him at several yards and you've said he is better with more turnout. 

Its very difficult to get the full picture without seeing what he actually does. I am totally with you for avoiding unecessary bit or tack changes and instead taking time to do it all properly. He sounds like a horse who needs riding totally from the core, back and seat. Fine tuning and co-ordination of your driving and restraining aids will be the main way to overcome his spooking, it is not about brute force at all. Are you absolutely sure you're not tipping forwards or perching? Any slight loss of balance from your side is going to make it easy for him to "get away". He needs to be truly in front of your leg yet be relaxed, so work on the basics first rather than focusing soley on the spooking. If you're anticipating spooking then guess what he's going to do  I can't underestimate how important it is to GIVE the inside hand when he does relax and starts to stretch through his frame.

I worked with a rider with a similarly hot horse who was perceived as being strong and a real handful. In actual fact by establishing a secure connection through the seat (ie really learning to sit on your bum and upright! Lunge lessons, work without stirrups - not on him obviously ) she was eventually able to totally give with the hand and the horse just stayed there where she was put. If it was me I would be thinking along these lines, what can YOU do as a rider to help your horse. Hard work but once established with a good trainer you will be 99% there. And only your trainer will be able to tell you when something really isn't your fault and when you may need a stronger half halt/non yielding hand


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## shortstuff99 (2 October 2012)

Gamebird said:



			Slightly off topic, but the snaffle vs double debate for lower level horses has been raging recently on the BD forum. I suggest you take a look if you're interested or just fancy some entertainment. Some interesting contributions.

Having said which I now can't find it. It was definitely there the other day. My apologies. Most odd!
		
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Do you mean this thread http://www.britishdressage.co.uk/forum/show_topic?topic=532230 ?


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## Gamebird (2 October 2012)

shortstuff99 said:



			Do you mean this thread http://www.britishdressage.co.uk/forum/show_topic?topic=532230 ?
		
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That one, yes. Thanks!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (2 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			There are horses who you could train not to spook at a particular filler who will spook at any new one that they see. The only thing that you can do with those horses is either never ever expose them to anything new, or train them to listen so closely to the rider that they stop looking for danger elsewhere.

You do actually need to jump the fillers too PS 

You describe this as "learnign to focus on the work" and I describe it as "learning to focus on the rider". I think we are talking about the same thing. 



He had some points at elementary and we went immediately to Medium because the more I gave him to do the better behaved he was. He wasn't ready to produce a competitive performance at Medium so his scores are only mid 50's. He improved over the winter to a position where he would certainly have scored points at Medium, and had 3-time tempi changes and was close to passage and piaffe at home, but he had to be put down before he could compete this year 

He changed from being a horse who was impossible to keep in a warm-up or inside a dressage arena if he did not want to be there to one who managed to get Elementary points. It was the most enormous change.
		
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I,personally DON'T have to jump the fillers and training a sj'er is very different as they need to learn to think for themselves more and NOT wait for every aid like a pure dressage horse so it's apples and oranges and as the OP has a dressage home I'll concentrate on that...

Ref the horse trained in this way, it doesn't quite make sense as the harder elems have plenty to do and consistant low 50's at medium is more than greenness but that's another topic I guess, at what point does trying to keep them occupied simply become pushing them above their limit..........but like I said, thats another can of worms for another thread.

IME people over think and over complicate and also make up over complex reasons for lack of good behaviour when they are just not able, or not brave enough, to firmly, but fairly, ask the questions that need to be asked, especially for something so basic and necessary as not boogering off spooking all the time........keep it simple and firm and fair and you can't go far wrong imo!


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## daffy44 (2 October 2012)

Hello, I have a very sharp naughty mare and she lives out 24/7, i've had her since she was a yearling, backed her myself, and i have tried twice having her in at night, and each time it made her a monster!  She is always tricky, but whilst out 24/7 she is manageable, when she came in at night she was impossible, i tried it in the winter when she was 4 and again when she was 8, both times it was dreadful.  So she stays out, she has a lot of rugs on, a field shelter and is fed twice a day, and hayed three times a day and she does very well on it, she wins at advanced medium, training small tour, all from the field.  I have to admit its a pain to have to demud in the morning before shows, but its worth it to have a horse i can ride when i get to the show.  Maybe its worth putting your horse back on grass livery for a while and seeing if it makes a difference?


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## Andiamo (2 October 2012)

~ Clear Light ~ said:



			Hey Andiamo,

I don't think he sounds "dominant" either, just rather exhuberant as nature has made him a hot and sensitive horse from what you've said who needs tactful riding and careful management. I always focus on the rider not the perceived problems with the horse. Routine wise you obviously know him best, have had him at several yards and you've said he is better with more turnout. 

Its very difficult to get the full picture without seeing what he actually does. I am totally with you for avoiding unecessary bit or tack changes and instead taking time to do it all properly. He sounds like a horse who needs riding totally from the core, back and seat. Fine tuning and co-ordination of your driving and restraining aids will be the main way to overcome his spooking, it is not about brute force at all. Are you absolutely sure you're not tipping forwards or perching? Any slight loss of balance from your side is going to make it easy for him to "get away". He needs to be truly in front of your leg yet be relaxed, so work on the basics first rather than focusing soley on the spooking. If you're anticipating spooking then guess what he's going to do  I can't underestimate how important it is to GIVE the inside hand when he does relax and starts to stretch through his frame.

I worked with a rider with a similarly hot horse who was perceived as being strong and a real handful. In actual fact by establishing a secure connection through the seat (ie really learning to sit on your bum and upright! Lunge lessons, work without stirrups - not on him obviously ) she was eventually able to totally give with the hand and the horse just stayed there where she was put. If it was me I would be thinking along these lines, what can YOU do as a rider to help your horse. Hard work but once established with a good trainer you will be 99% there. And only your trainer will be able to tell you when something really isn't your fault and when you may need a stronger half halt/non yielding hand 

Click to expand...

Clearlight. Apologies in advance if I sound defensive...but just to be clear, I am not a beginning rider and do have some extensive experience and knowledge myself.... I do understand / practice the fundamental basics based on the Scales of Training plus many other schools of thought. I have trained this horse myself, with minimal intervention from anyone else. He is ridden from the core, back and seat, I do sit straight, I don't perch, I spent one year 4-5 times per week on the lunge when I lived in Germany many years ago, I can ride with no stirrups, no hands - no problem (just not on this nutty one). He is in front of my leg, he is more than in front of it, he is waaaay too much in front of it, despite the smallest, politest of aides. He is very sensitive. Restraint is what is needed when he makes a takeover bid. Not forward driving aides. I have the basics established.... he is just a hot and bothered horse who cannot relax most of the time. Most people would not be able to ride one side of him. I don't focus on things he is about to spook at, if anything, he's been spooking since Day 1, I'm kinda used to it by now, I am determined to ride past things he finds scary. I work in many different ways to get him past everything, including a herd of deer at "E" about 6 weeks ago (which ended up with him catapulting me across the school). 
I do give with the inside hand in a timely fashion. He does get a rewarding pat when he is good. I do not rely on my trainer to tell me everything. I can do things for myself as well, I do actually have enough knowledge, experience and training already. 

The individual I train with when required, is a top International GP rider, and she has said I am too nice with him. That I need to be harder on him. She makes me really kick him onto my outside rein (repeatedly) to get him to give in and be more submissive. She says he's ignorant. She uses strength, grit, determination to make a horse do something (as many pros do - and when I say pros - I mean top international successful riders) - in doing so, she teaches the horse that it cannot take the mickey. She is very "Konsequent" as the Germans say. Her style of riding is very similar to German riding, and of course she's taught by the top master in the UK....who has a German influence himself.

I guess I shouldn't have posted on here at all about this subject. 
Anyway, sorry for asking the initial question.... I'll deal with it myself, as I have been doing up until now.


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## cptrayes (2 October 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			I,personally DON'T have to jump the fillers and training a sj'er is very different as they need to learn to think for themselves more and NOT wait for every aid like a pure dressage horse so it's apples and oranges and as the OP has a dressage home I'll concentrate on that...
		
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If you didn't ever jump the fillers you'd never know whether a horse of a highly self-protective nature would or would not. I also disagree with you about whether I would want a showjumper to think for itself more than a dressage horse. 




			Ref the horse trained in this way, it doesn't quite make sense as the harder elems have plenty to do
		
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That just isn't true. For a horse of the kind that I am talking about it is much easier to keep their mind on their work than the flapping advertising banner if the movements come faster. In medium they come much faster than at elementary and my horse enjoyed doing mediums more than elementary and was softer in my hand than doing an elementary because of it. The fact that he was not "ready" to compete (ie win points) at that level did not mean that it was not right to go out and participate with no expectation of a place, and we both enjoyed doing it. 





			and consistant low 50's at medium is more than greenness but that's another topic I guess, at what point does trying to keep them occupied simply become pushing them above their limit..........but like I said, thats another can of worms for another thread.
		
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Well you'd never ridden this horse and since no-one else I know would ever get on his back I have no way of judging whether someone could have done a better job than me. My trainer, who also would not ride him, has fond memories of him attempting to leave her indoor school by climbing on top of the double height heston bales of straw out of which the walls were built 





			IME people over think and over complicate and also make up over complex reasons for lack of good behaviour when they are just not able, or not brave enough, to firmly, but fairly, ask the questions that need to be asked, especially for something so basic and necessary as not boogering off spooking all the time........keep it simple and firm and fair and you can't go far wrong imo!
		
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Your analysis is grossly over-simplistic. 

Your own and your sister's horses sometimes blow up either in training or in competition as you have recorded in other threads. You posted a thread recently asking for advice how to stop your horse doing so. So I'm not sure quite where your experience to tell others that controlling "boogering off" and "spooking" as being "basic if you keep it simple, firm and fair" is coming from.

I am talking about one horse in around forty that I have personally trained in over 30 years, not your average RC horse. I think it is possible that you have not yet met one like it. For your sake I hope you never do, he was more challenge than I ever want to face again.  The OPs horse sounds very like him.


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## ~ Clear Light ~ (2 October 2012)

Andiamo you shouldn't really be disheartened, everyone is taking the time to try and help and see different perspectives. Like I said before, it is impossible to understand the exact situation without seeing it.

What I'm getting at is a horse who is on the aids (ie maintained between BOTH driving and restraining aids) has less chance to spook. It doesn't necessarily mean they will be relaxed (my Akhal Teke certainly wasn't ). I was thinking that a lot of top dressage horses are hot and tricky to handle but through clever riding they rarely spook. 

Top international riders CAN use more grit and determination than most of us because they can be more sure when it is justified and not use it to just vent their anger. However I think this still comes down mostly to skill, experience and tactics and not primarily to force.

As I (and others) said, its your trainer you should speak to about where to go next as you've come this far this him already and only recently you posted about how he had transformed. Everyone has ups and downs. Good luck and I'm sure it will come good in the end


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## TarrSteps (2 October 2012)

OP, I'm sorry you're upset by some of the comments, I'm sure that's not been anyone's intention.

As said, there is no way to say without seeing - and possibly sitting on - a horse in a situation such as this. I don't know about everyone else but I also tend to be aware of other people reading threads such as this who may have different levels of knowledge and/or situations that seem similar but actually aren't. This sometimes means I clarify when I know the OP doesn't really need it! For example, the topic of the double bridle - I didn't think you'd want to go that way, at least not without consulting your trainer, so the comment about seeking help was more a general one to anyone out there thinking it might be a quick and easy solution to a similar sounding situation.

Re the feed, I have a similarly reactive horse and what he eats makes a HUGE difference to his behaviour but it sounds like you've got that sussed. I've also found an immune supplement helps a great deal when he can't live out 24/7, is competing or is otherwise leading a stressful/synthetic life. He doesn't eat chaff but has done well on grass nuts and, more recently, Re-leve or similar.

Re the comfort snaffle, I generally like the Mylers very much but have found some horses can get fixed in the neck in them over time. Also, while I like hanging cheeks, they have a very specific purpose. Perhaps it might be worth trying a more traditional loose ring + drop combo? It's unlikely to be a game changer but perhaps a slightly different feel would go some way to getting his attention.


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## TarrSteps (2 October 2012)

Last thought. . .there are many roads to Rome and to some extent you have to stick with the path you choose. It's great to be 'determined' and 'committed' but similarly, you don't want to lose the joy in it, for you or the horse.


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## kerilli (3 October 2012)

OP, lots of good stuff said already, esp by TS. 
I'd try a totally different bit because I find that particular Myler mouthpiece a bit sharper than, say, a Sprenger lozenge. The ends of the barrel can slightly pinch the tongue, I think. 
Some horses need a bit more telling than others, I think it was Toddy who said you have to be a 'benevolent dictator'. Maybe if you are much stricter with him he will feel comforted by being so channelled. Have you tried the "you can look with your eyes but you CAN'T turn your head" mantra when he's trying to gawp? Former trainer drilled that into me about 1 in particular. 
I'd lunge first if you can, then once on if he's looky, I'd do, say, 15-20 mins of trotting without a pause, aiming for relaxation through a bit of tiredness and lots of repetition. This has worked v well for a few I've had. Loads of variations within the pace, changes of direction, keep him thinking, never do more than 10 strides without changing something, keep him guessing a bit, but ONLY about you! 
Just another idea or 2 anyway. Good luck.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (3 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			If you didn't ever jump the fillers you'd never know whether a horse of a highly self-protective nature would or would not. I also disagree with you about whether I would want a showjumper to think for itself more than a dressage horse. 



That just isn't true. For a horse of the kind that I am talking about it is much easier to keep their mind on their work than the flapping advertising banner if the movements come faster. In medium they come much faster than at elementary and my horse enjoyed doing mediums more than elementary and was softer in my hand than doing an elementary because of it. The fact that he was not "ready" to compete (ie win points) at that level did not mean that it was not right to go out and participate with no expectation of a place, and we both enjoyed doing it. 




Well you'd never ridden this horse and since no-one else I know would ever get on his back I have no way of judging whether someone could have done a better job than me. My trainer, who also would not ride him, has fond memories of him attempting to leave her indoor school by climbing on top of the double height heston bales of straw out of which the walls were built 




Your analysis is grossly over-simplistic. 

Your own and your sister's horses sometimes blow up either in training or in competition as you have recorded in other threads. You posted a thread recently asking for advice how to stop your horse doing so. So I'm not sure quite where your experience to tell others that controlling "boogering off" and "spooking" as being "basic if you keep it simple, firm and fair" is coming from.

I am talking about one horse in around forty that I have personally trained in over 30 years, not your average RC horse. I think it is possible that you have not yet met one like it. For your sake I hope you never do, he was more challenge than I ever want to face again.  The OPs horse sounds very like him.
		
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sorry to de-rail OP's thread, but............Fig doesnt blow up-he's less than a year off the track and gets understandably tense occasionally (not repeatedly) at shows, he did lose it in his warm up test at Patchetts, NMT kept firmly but calmly putting him back where she asked him to be and he went on to win the qualifier without ever taking his attention off her....
...as for CS, i think he's challenge enough for anyone(!) but has gradually got better all season also culminating in qualifying for the winters, so i dont think there can be any argument that the horses are progressing as the proof as they say is in the pudding.

the OP has had loads of good advice from people who have produced and improved multiple horses and have the results to back up their written word and i hope she is able to put that advice in to practice and get her boy more on side.....it might even help with your  horses issues cptrayes, as i think a horse hurling its self over backwards and then having to be draw reined in to submission is a clear indicator the current system is NOT working, especially 2 years down the line.


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## Tempi (3 October 2012)

Hi, hope you are well 

Firstly I would turn him away and just give him some time off to chill out, relax and get used to his new surroundings for a good 3-4 weeks at least, i should think his mind is probably blown.  Hes green for his age and lacks in confidence and this is his 4th different yard in 18months, im not surprised he is unsettled, even the most seasoned relaxed horse would have trouble coping with so much moving around.  (I know the moving isnt your fault, but its a lot for him to take in when he is a naturally nervous horse).

Take some time out, do lots of ground work with him, let him relax and settle and then start by lunging him in the school for a week in about 3 weeks time and go from there, take him back to basics, keep it all very calm and relaxed (as I know you do anyway) and go from there.  

I bet he will be a different horse after hes settled in his new environment, just give him time.  I know hes tricky and as he is so sensitive he is obviously just very unsettled and nervous, to be honest I dont even think its a dominance thing with him, its all about his nerves and the way he just cant handle certain situations due to the fact that he hasnt had much life experience yet for his age. 

Good luck with him, drop me an email if you need anything, or if you want some help I really dont mind popping over to see you both sometime.


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## cptrayes (3 October 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			so i dont think there can be any argument that the horses are progressing as the proof as they say is in the pudding.
		
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Just as my horse was massively improved by the exercise I suggested to the OP, PS. The proof was in the pudding. 




			It might even help with your  horses issues cptrayes, as i think a horse hurling its self over backwards and then having to be draw reined in to submission is a clear indicator the current system is NOT working, especially 2 years down the line.
		
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You're such a caring sweetheart PS, wanting to help me with my problems, aren't you  ?


"firmly but calmly" were not the words used to describe controlling Fig after shooting off in a canter transition by someone who watched the test you mention and told me about it. So can we agree that as neither of us has seen or ridden the other's horses, or seen the other ride, that neither of us are  really in a position to make judgements?


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## cptrayes (3 October 2012)

Sorry, the test I was told about was at the Regionals. You are referring to a different test where he also went to pieces. Then produced a really good  second test. Just what my own youngster did last time out


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (3 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Just as my horse was massively improved by the exercise I suggested to the OP, PS. The proof was in the pudding. 



You're such a caring sweetheart PS, wanting to help me with my problems, aren't you  ?


"firmly but calmly" were not the words used to describe controlling Fig after shooting off in a canter transition by someone who watched the test you mention and told me about it. So can we agree that as neither of us has seen or ridden the other's horses, or seen the other ride, that neither of us are  really in a position to make judgements?
		
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No, i only care about the horse, HE sounds like a sweetheart. 

BD records are easy to find and comparisions are interesting arent they


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## alidegg (3 October 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			No, i only care about the horse, HE sounds like a sweetheart. 

BD records are easy to find and comparisions are interesting arent they 

Click to expand...

HAHA! "Like".


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (3 October 2012)

alidegg said:



			HAHA! "Like".
		
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Pleasure, and i wish you delightful, if eyebrow raising reading.........


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## nikkimariet (3 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Just as my horse was massively improved by the exercise I suggested to the OP, PS. The proof was in the pudding. 



You're such a caring sweetheart PS, wanting to help me with my problems, aren't you  ?


"firmly but calmly" were not the words used to describe controlling Fig after shooting off in a canter transition by someone who watched the test you mention and told me about it. So can we agree that as neither of us has seen or ridden the other's horses, or seen the other ride, that neither of us are  really in a position to make judgements?
		
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cptrayes said:



			Sorry, the test I was told about was at the Regionals. You are referring to a different test where he also went to pieces. Then produced a really good  second test. Just what my own youngster did last time out 

Click to expand...

CPT, since you have taken the time, effort and pleasure to involve me in this thread....let me take the time, effort and pleasure to respond 

The proof really is in the pudding. You only have to compare Fig and A in terms of training and of competing to recognize that 

I disagree about the way I handled Fig at the Regionals (see thread here, for as you earlier pointed out, some of my competitions are documented on this forum: http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=552235) 

I said 'Canter = disaster, we reached K on the right rein where he changed, changed back, went disunited and then towed me off at a fairly decent speed over to R. Meant to be doing a 20m circle at E mind, so pirouetted at last moment (really took all my strength to do so).' I would say that was a firm reaction; I took as much of a pull was needed to change his direction (he is very quick, very strong and I wasn't massively keen on him continuing his tangent out the arena boards which is on a hill). Since you've voiced your concerns regarding my weight, you'd do well to assume I am not a strong person/rider....I'd couldn't pull the back teeth out a spider, never mind a horse! I would definitely describe my reaction as a calm one. I didn't cry/shout out. I didn't panic. I brought him back to walk, and then we picked up the movement again. Fyi, ALL the judges commented 'well handled' 

"So can we agree that as neither of us has seen or ridden the other's horses, or seen the other ride, that neither of us are  really in a position to make judgements?"

You say that...whilst judging my riding....based on someone elses opinion? Riiiight. By the by, I have seen you ride. And based on my judgement of that, you won't be getting offered a ride on Fig. Ever. 

The only similarity between our horses is that they are both sharp. A is an expensive, purpose bred import you've had for 2 years. Fig is an an ex-racer from Oz I've had for just over 9 months. And look where we both are with them.... 

And as PS points out, it is *interesting* to compare competition records


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## TarrSteps (3 October 2012)

Sigh. 

Anyway, OP, let us know how you get on. As discussed, there are often different answers to the same problem, even for the same horse at different times. That's part of the fun of it.


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## Tempi (3 October 2012)

Seriously, non of the above is helping the OP - as usual another post has been turned into a debate about the sparkle sisters horses.......


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## nikkimariet (3 October 2012)

Yes Tempi, I quite agree... Why has Cptrayes involved my horse?....


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## shortstuff99 (3 October 2012)

In my experience with 'bog off' kind of horses if they go to bog off I just go into 2 point seat and just let them canter round... And when they want to stop I make them keep going! In the end they realise it's in fact much harder work to bog off then it is to do the work. For my nervous Spanish mare, I have to keep everything varied so to keep her occupied and therefore less likely to spook. This also means I have to vary her work she hardly ever does the same thing 2 days running. Have you also tried in-hand NH type stuff? I find it really helps!


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## Bigbenji (3 October 2012)

nikkimariet said:



			Yes Tempi, I quite agree... Why has Cptrayes involved my horse?....
		
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Maybe cptrayes has a crush on ya! 

Nicki I think it's great that you and PS post warts n all. 
I love seeing peoples progress and how they work through problems as and when they crop up. I think by showing pictures and videos others can relate much easier. Anyone can give it the gab but back it up now and again 

For what it's worth I saw Fig at his Patchetts outing in his second test and all I saw was a lovely relaxed partnership performing an accurate test which deserved it's win. 

OP there is already some great advice on here so please keep us posted when you've tried some and hope you see some improvment soon.


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## Tonks (3 October 2012)

Apologies as I haven't read the whole thread but here goes.......

I understand that you're an experienced rider and I would have found myself saying the same thing as you a few years ago. However, after working with horses and studying the scientific approach of behaviourism (similar to how they train dogs but species specific) it has opened up a world of horses to me that I never thought possible. I hope some of these ideas may be useful for your riding/horse. 

Although there are individual differences amongst horses there are 4 basic movements that make up the horse's entire ridden repitoire. The 'stop', 'go' 'turn' and 'yield' response. We train these using Negative Reinforcement. That is, pressure and release at a very precise moment. When this release is carried out at the wrong time the horse begins to confuse what pressure means - hence not slowing or stopping when required. 

Again, (I don't think it applies to you) but when we inappropriately use leg pressure without the correct release (to REWARD the desired response) the horse commonly becomes known as 'dead to the leg'. The horse is not dead to the leg or ignorant - it is merely hasn't been taught what the pressure means.  

If your horse is hurtling down the arena and at events, wouldn't it make sense to go back and train the 'stop' response as it appears that your horse doesn't fully understand what pressure means. Some horses require little pressure others more, but the release of pressure and the training remains the same. 

I rode my old mare for many years affiliated eventing not fully understanding what a proper 'stop' response should feel like - hence many bits and a few bolts out hunting. I won't make the same mistake with my new boy and he now responds to the lightest of rein pressure for a 'slow/stop'. Once the 'stop' response is fully trained you should be able to take your horse anywhere as proof that it understands and is trained to provide the desired behaviour.

You mentioned that he's spooking a lot. Spooking should be considered a loss of line/straightness (similar to falling in/out where either fore steps outside of the two track straightness) and as such, it means that you've temporarily loss control over the shoulders. Although, I'm sure that his behaviour has worsened because he's in a new environment, I would suggest that it has merely brought them more to the surface.

Once a horse is 'on the aids'/'off the leg' or 'under stimulus control' spooking should become a thing of the past as your horse should be able to maintain the speed, straightness, and carriage by himself. He is then waiting for you to tell him otherwise.

If he spooks I would go back and work on the 'turn' response in order to gain greater control over his shoulders to stop the spooking. But, he first has to be able to maintain his own pace and be 'off the leg' as without that you won't get anything. Being truly off the leg should mean that he responds to a SINGLE light pressure from your calf on his sides behind the girth to bring about an increase in speed from him. If he doesn't then you need to re-train the 'go'.

I also use the scale of training for both short term (schooling sessions) and long term goals:

1. Rythmym: he should be off the leg and stay in the pace you put him into until you tell him otherwise. No nagging heels. Back of the calf for a 'go' - back of the heel for a lengthen stride so your horse knows the difference. If my horse does not maintain the pace I put him into on his own, trying to do anything else will be useless.

2. Looseness: to be honest, with a spooky horse I may only want a few moments of this!!

3. Contact: I then take up a contact that feels no more than a can of beans in each hand - I'm sure I will be criticised for this but this is what my horse should habituate to in order to fully understand correct amounts of pressure.

4. Straightness: control over the shoulders using the turn response to ensure my horse is on whatever track I dictate. Without straightness I can't do anything else. My horse should maintain his OWN straightness - if he can't I go over it again until he does.  

5. I'd then expect my horse to maintain his own pace and straightness and ultimately his own carriage. When you've got a horse doing it by himself the feeling is wonderful and you don't need any amount of brute strength. I think this is what more professional riders do - they are just good at knowing when to release the pressure in order to train the horse to produce the correct behavioural responses to the lightest of aids.

Good luck.


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## siennamum (3 October 2012)

Tonks said:



			Apologies as I haven't read the whole thread but here goes.......

I understand that you're an experienced rider and I would have found myself saying the same thing as you a few years ago. However, after working with horses and studying the scientific approach of behaviourism (similar to how they train dogs but species specific) it has opened up a world of horses to me that I never thought possible. I hope some of these ideas may be useful for your riding/horse. 

Although there are individual differences amongst horses there are 4 basic movements that make up the horse's entire ridden repitoire. The 'stop', 'go' 'turn' and 'yield' response. We train these using Negative Reinforcement. That is, pressure and release at a very precise moment. When this release is carried out at the wrong time the horse begins to confuse what pressure means - hence not slowing or stopping when required. 

Again, (I don't think it applies to you) but when we inappropriately use leg pressure without the correct release (to REWARD the desired response) the horse commonly becomes known as 'dead to the leg'. The horse is not dead to the leg or ignorant - it is merely hasn't been taught what the pressure means.  

If your horse is hurtling down the arena and at events, wouldn't it make sense to go back and train the 'stop' response as it appears that your horse doesn't fully understand what pressure means. Some horses require little pressure others more, but the release of pressure and the training remains the same. 

I rode my old mare for many years affiliated eventing not fully understanding what a proper 'stop' response should feel like - hence many bits and a few bolts out hunting. I won't make the same mistake with my new boy and his downward transitions are beautiful. Once the 'stop' response is fully trained you should be able to take your horse anywhere as proof that it understands and is trained to provide the desired behaviour.

You mentioned that he's spooking a lot. Spooking should be considered a loss of line/straightness (similar to falling in/out where either fore steps outside of the two track straightness) and as such, it means that you've temporarily loss control over the shoulders. Although, I'm sure that his behaviour has worsened because he's in a new environment, I would suggest that it has merely brought them more to the surface.

Once a horse is 'on the aids'/'off the leg' or 'under stimulus control' spooking should become a thing of the past as your horse should be able to maintain the speed, straightness, and carriage by himself. He is then waiting for you to tell him otherwise.

If he spooks I would go back and working on the 'turn' response in order to gain greater control over his shoulders to stop the spooking. But, he first has to be able to maintain his own pace and be 'off the leg' as without that you won't get anything. Being truly off the leg should mean that he responds to a SINGLE light pressure from your calf on his sides behind the girth to bring about an increase in speed from him. 

I also use the scale of training for both short term (schooling sessions) and long term goals:

1. Rythmym: he should be off the leg and stay in the pace you put him into until you tell him otherwise. No nagging heels. Back of the calf for a 'go' - back of the heel for a lengthen stride so your horse knows the difference. If my horse does not maintain the pace I put him into on his own, trying to do anything else will be useless.

2. Looseness: to be honest, with a spooky horse I may only want a few moments of this!!

3. Contact: I then take up a contact that feels no more than a can of beans in each hand - I'm sure I will be criticised for this but this is what my horse should habituate to in order to fully understand correct amounts of pressure.

4. Straightness: control over the shoulders using the turn response to ensure my horse is on whatever track I dictate. Without straightness I can't do anything else. My horse should maintain his OWN straightness - if he can't I go over it again until he does.

5. I'd then expect my horse to maintain his own pace and straightness and ultimately his own carriage. When you've got a horse doing it by himself the feeling is wonderful and you don't need any amount of brute strength. I think this is what more professional riders do - they are just good at knowing when to release the pressure in order to train the horse to produce the correct behavioural responses to the lightest of aids.

Good luck.
		
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how interesting thank you


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## nikkimariet (3 October 2012)

Bigbenji said:



			Maybe cptrayes has a crush on ya! 

Nicki I think it's great that you and PS post warts n all. 
I love seeing peoples progress and how they work through problems as and when they crop up. I think by showing pictures and videos others can relate much easier. Anyone can give it the gab but back it up now and again 

For what it's worth I saw Fig at his Patchetts outing in his second test and all I saw was a lovely relaxed partnership performing an accurate test which deserved it's win. 

OP there is already some great advice on here so please keep us posted when you've tried some and hope you see some improvment soon.
		
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Ahh thanks BB  He was a very good boy!! And hey, warts and all is just real life


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## cptrayes (3 October 2012)

Tonks I understand what you are saying, but some of the warmbloods that have been bred for huge movement seem to have left their brains somewhere further back in their breeding, compared to the ex-racers and IDx's that I have previously trained.

What do you do with a horse who simply does not stay in the pace you put him in; who sometimes takes a contact like two JCBs not two cans of beans; who will not stay on the track you dictate; who will not maintain the pace and straightness?  I'm not referring to my current youngster, who is as light on his feet as a ballerina, but the one I had that died would, from time to time, choose to leave the arena either through or over the fence if he did not want to do work that he had previously done without a problem. Often the cause would be something as simple as a new vehicle parked on the yard. He was completely freaked by change, even something like  a daffodil growing on a verge where there had been no daffodil last time he went past.

There do appear to be some horses who simply will not consent to give up control to their rider without methods like hyperflexion (Parzival and Totilas look like contenders) and I wonder if the OP may be unlucky enough to have one   But I would be interested to hear what your technique would be if you came across one. I hope never to buy another like it, but who knows!


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## TGM (3 October 2012)

Hmmm ... Do you think these tips would be useful for getting sharp and dominant HHOers to be more submissive?


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## Tonks (3 October 2012)

Yep, I understand my ex eventer was a WB.....mare!! If in doubt her feet got faster...I love her to bits though and she taught me loads. 

She's in retirement but I actually went back and retrained [not the 'go' - that was fully installed, he, he....!!] the stop response last year [as I use her for teaching] because although she could tolerate a lot of pressure, it was my incorrect application of the pressure that caused her to not slow/stop, etc. She now stop/slows to much lighter rein pressure than ever before. 

I know that each horse is different but I do believe that the techniques I use (as described before) work with every single horse out there. You just have to work out which of the basic responses they need work on (and what you need to work on with your riding.)

I would like to mention however, that horses often exhibit 'conflict' behaviours (rearing/bucking/bolting - and more subtle ones - tail swishing, etc) when there is an incorrect use of pressure/release. This is not good and often those horse that appear 'difficult' are the one which are actually undergoing undue psychological and physiological stress.

Hyperflexion is totally unnecessary and totally unethical and causes psychological and physiological stress. But please lets not have a debate about that!!!


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## Tonks (3 October 2012)

TGM said:



			Hmmm ... Do you think these tips would be useful for getting sharp and dominant HHOers to be more submissive? 

Click to expand...

It works on those best of all.....read Andrew McLean - a bit of science regarding horses' cognitive abilities, their ethology and how Negative & Positive reinforcement along with Classical conditioning shapes their behaviour does wonders.

You as a rider uses all of the above, you just don't realise you're doing it and perhaps not how to use it to bring about wanted rather than unwanted behaviours.


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## cptrayes (3 October 2012)

Completely agree with you that hyperflexion is unacceptable.  I think I also agree with you that (almost?) all horses can get there in the end. My odd boy was doing well after six whole years (except for hacking, he never cracked that one). Of course people who want/have (eg pro's) to win can't wait that long and so I suppose go for a quicker fix. My current youngster is a big tail swisher and it's easy to tell when I've got it right - he stops doing it. My last one was a mouth opener, which also stopped if he was truly happy, so I'd never tie a mouth shut either.

Now I've thought about it, the big difference between the two was on the ground. My current youngster is a joy to handle, but the horse which was seriously difficult to ride was also very odd to handle. For example, if there was a new vehicle on the yard he would refuse to come in to have his tea.

It would be interesting to know whether Andiamo's horse is also boisterous or strangely behaved on the ground, or only when ridden, which might perhaps suggest different issues.


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## ellie_e (3 October 2012)

Cptrayes, I think there's a very good saying of 'people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones' which I would say applies to some of your comments to the others. There is also a very good argument of people over horsing themselves, and if your horse is such a nightmare then maybe he's not suited to you, and you would be best with a quiter horse. No horse is perfect PS knows this better than most, she has competed to GP with a stunning horse who she has produced herself that wasn't bred for the job, who can be difficult but has proven results, like the others said, records are easily available.


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## Tonks (3 October 2012)

Cptrayes: "Now I've thought about it, the big difference between the two was on the ground. My current youngster is a joy to handle, but the horse which was seriously difficult to ride was also very odd to handle. For example, if there was a new vehicle on the yard he would refuse to come in to have his tea."

There is a correlation between in-hand work/training/responses and ridden responses also. If your horse is refusing in-hand to enter the yard - it simply comes down to the way and amount of pressure needed to produce the required response. In other words, he learnt that the pressure you used was avoidable and he learnt that he could say, go 'left' rather than 'right'. Inadvertently you reinforced unwanted behaviour - to produce [I don't know, backing away from the yard.] If it hadn't been a new vehicle on the yard, it would have been something else. Basically, there was a flaw in training of the 'go' in hand. Horses are immensely trainable and have been bred with this in mind. Horses innately move away from pressure and when applied correctly we can use this to our advantage. I don't believe there isn't a horse out there that doesn't respond to pressure and release regardless of age or breeding even those who are so called 'sharp'.

As there is a correlation between in-hand and ridden responses I am not surprised therefore, that he exhibited unwanted behaviours under saddle. If he has not learnt the correct behaviour/responses in-hand why will he learn them under saddle?


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## ellie_e (3 October 2012)

"As there is a correlation between in-hand and ridden responses I am not surprised therefore, that he exhibited unwanted behaviours under saddle. If he has not learnt the correct behaviour/responses in-hand why will he learn them under saddle?"
I couldn't agree more!!


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## Froggy1990 (3 October 2012)

nikkimariet said:



			Yes Tempi, I quite agree... Why has Cptrayes involved my horse?....
		
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I think the more pertinent question is "why has PrincessSparkle involved my horse?"


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## nikkimariet (3 October 2012)

Froggy1990 said:



			I think the more pertinent question is "why has PrincessSparkle involved my horse?"
		
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Oh look. A brand new poster 

Actually, cptrayes was first to mention Fig on page 5, comment number 47


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## Froggy1990 (3 October 2012)

nikkimariet said:



			Oh look. A brand new poster 

Actually, cptrayes was first to mention Fig on page 5, comment number 47 

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*Waves* Yes indeed. We all have to be brand new posters at some point. 
How silly of me. As it was PrincessSparkle who mentioned your horse's name and was so swift to hold him as a paragon of virtue in such exhaustive detail, I did indeed focus on THAT particular post. I shall slap myself on the wrist.


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## nikkimariet (3 October 2012)

Froggy1990 said:



			*Waves* Yes indeed. We all have to be brand new posters at some point. 
How silly of me. As it was PrincessSparkle who mentioned your horse's name and was so swift to hold him as a paragon of virtue in such exhaustive detail, I did indeed focus on THAT particular post. I shall slap myself on the wrist.
		
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Yes, very silly of you.


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## cptrayes (4 October 2012)

Tonks said:



			If your horse is refusing in-hand to enter the yard - it simply comes down to the way and amount of pressure needed to produce the required response. In other words, he learnt that the pressure you used was avoidable and he learnt that he could say, go 'left' rather than 'right'. Inadvertently you reinforced unwanted behaviour - to produce [I don't know, backing away from the yard.] If it hadn't been a new vehicle on the yard, it would have been something else. Basically, there was a flaw in training of the 'go' in hand. Horses are immensely trainable and have been bred with this in mind. Horses innately move away from pressure and when applied correctly we can use this to our advantage. I don't believe there isn't a horse out there that doesn't respond to pressure and release regardless of age or breeding even those who are so called 'sharp'.
		
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This is the problem with a forum. You didn't meet the horse and there is no way that you could understand him unless you did. Unfortunately he is dead now, so that's not possible.

My own history is relevant here. I have routinely bought horses that other people had already ruined, (mainly because I was too mean to pay more  ) and sorted them out.

This horse was the only one who I found remotely difficult, and he was very, very peculiar. It was not simply a question of training. Nothing was "simple" about him at all. His instinct for self-preservation was sky high. He also has a full brother with serious behaviour issues, and the father was known for being quirky, so this is one was not simply a case of incorrect training. 

If taken to a place he did not know, he would either break down or climb over the stable door. When travelling, he smashed the lorry windows with his front feet before I got him and in order to stop him doing that again he was travelled with a wither rope attached to a "cage" arrangement so that he could not break the partitions as well. (he shares that trait with his brother, who I have never seen).  I could go on for several pages. Quite simply, he was not normal.

It's my impression that the Dutch in particular have focussed so much on breeding horses which move exceptionally well that in some cases they have left "trainability" out of the mix. Mine was an extreme version but he was not alone, I've been offered others for free that other people have given up with  and heard of even more.

Andiamo may have one like it, and if she does then none of us understand without sitting on it what she is trying to deal with, and I think that is the root of her frustration with the answers that she got on here.

"refusing in hand to enter the yard" is not the point at all. I open the gate and my horses bring themselves in. For his first three years with me, if there was anything, even tiny, different about the yard, he would not come in. If I attempted to bring him in then he would pick me up and carry me back out into the field on the end of whatever I had on him, with steam coming out of his ears and his eyes rolling in terror in his head - this because a delivery van was parked outside his yard with a gate between him and it, to give just one example of a thousand.

I know that you will probably still answer that my training was at fault, but the fact is that some of these horses are simply not completely sane. Just as there is a range with humans, so there is with horses.


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (4 October 2012)

TGM said:



			Hmmm ... Do you think these tips would be useful for getting sharp and dominant HHOers to be more submissive? 

Click to expand...

nothing more to say, except this made me howl......i have often wondered if i should rollkur my OH when he's being a nob!!!!!!!!!


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## Ferdinase514 (4 October 2012)

If you want control just put the horse in draw reins


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## kerilli (4 October 2012)

Sticking my oar back in, although I may live to regret it...  

Tonks, thank you for your contributions. Very interesting. I agree 100% with:
"As there is a correlation between in-hand and ridden responses I am not surprised therefore, that he exhibited unwanted behaviours under saddle. If he has not learnt the correct behaviour/responses in-hand why will he learn them under saddle?"

In my experience 99.9% of horses will react to requests from the ground pretty much as they do from requests when on top (as long as there's not a physical pain/problem which means that being ridden hurts them). Their basic response to a question, be it "walk with me" or "move over" or "hop over that jump" or whatever, usually follows a very consistent pattern. I've never had a horse who was wildly different to ride cf to handle UNLESS it had a major problem already.



cptrayes said:



			"refusing in hand to enter the yard" is not the point at all. I open the gate and my horses bring themselves in. For his first three years with me, if there was anything, even tiny, different about the yard, he would not come in. If I attempted to bring him in then he would pick me up and carry me back out into the field on the end of whatever I had on him, with steam coming out of his ears and his eyes rolling in terror in his head - this because a delivery van was parked outside his yard with a gate between him and it, to give just one example of a thousand.
		
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But but but...  letting horses bring themselves into the yard teaches them nothing and proves nothing, surely? Of course most horses will come in of their own volition if allowed to do so: they know they're coming in for food and a warm comfy bed for the night. But for most nervous ones, being allowed to come in loose makes them 100x worse. They need the calm direction, the habit and discipline of being led and being rewarded. It's like a security blanket, teaching them good habits. Just walking in hand nicely and then the reward of stable and feed etc.
I let foals follow in loose because I lack the manpower to have a person leading the foal and a person leading the mare, and because ime 1 person trying to do both needs extendable arms... but once they're bigger they are always led in if at all possible.



cptrayes said:



			I know that you will probably still answer that my training was at fault, but the fact is that some of these horses are simply not completely sane. Just as there is a range with humans, so there is with horses.
		
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This is true. The truly impossible/insane ones are downright dangerous. They usually have a major physical reason for their hyperreactiveness imho (because they feel so vulnerable they are far more nervous, basically) but if they are THAT bad, if what they do is totally without rhyme or reason even when handled calmly, consistently and competently, then I know what I would do with them...  
but fwiw I don't think 'dumb-bloods' are top of the list of insane horses I've heard about. Dutch warm bloods have been bred for generations to be athletes and to totally accept drilling, not to be hyperreactive nutters - they'd have eaten those long ago, not bred with them!


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## cptrayes (4 October 2012)

kerilli said:



			But but but...  letting horses bring themselves into the yard teaches them nothing and proves nothing, surely?
		
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You seem to assume that he was never led in hand at any time. That is not correct.  The example I gave was one of many, his bizarre behaviour was not limited by any normal horse's boundaries

I personally see no conflict with opening a gate and expecting my horses to walk calmly between 0 and 25 feet into their own stable and good groundwork training. But I do find it significant that a horse which has done so perfectly happily for 6 months will one day completely refuse to come near the yard because we changed a white Toyota for a grey Skoda.




			This is true. The truly impossible/insane ones are downright dangerous. They usually have a major physical reason for their hyperreactiveness imho (because they feel so vulnerable they are far more nervous, basically) but if they are THAT bad, if what they do is totally without rhyme or reason even when handled calmly, consistently and competently, then I know what I would do with them...
		
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It crossed my mind many times to have him put down. I could not sell him. In the end, the irony was that just as he began to really come right, I had no option but to have him shot 

You write as if you do not believe in inherited behaviour traits Kerilli. Whilst it was clear in the end that the horse had a physical problem with his neck from birth, I know that his behaviour was largely hereditary because his father and full brother, neither of whom I have ever had any contact with, were also very quirky. Of course it is possible that both were also wobblers, but since the father was  a GP showjumper and the brother has no_ ridden_ problems at a year older, that seems rather unlikely.





			Dutch warm bloods have been bred for generations to be athletes and to totally accept drilling, not to be hyperreactive nutters - they'd have eaten those long ago, not bred with them!  

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Tell that to the people who own Opan offspring   I understand that Totilas' father had a hell of  reputation too, and look at the difficulty Rath is having getting to grips with him.  Winstone Bridget has been bred from in spite of being difficult, because of her huge jump. Her sire Rosewall Grandure, now dead, is well known around here for throwing quirky and argumentative stock with fussy mouths. People breed things with the characteristics they want, they don't always consider the ones they don't 


Are not the Dutch big fans of hyperflexion? I don't think that would be the case if these horses readily accepted normal training.


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## kerilli (4 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			You seem to assume that he was never led in hand at any time. That is not correct.
		
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I was interpreting your exact words 


cptrayes said:



			I open the gate and my horses bring themselves in. For his first three years with me, if there was anything, even tiny, different about the yard, he would not come in.
		
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I took this to mean that this was the usual way you did it.



cptrayes said:



			I personally see no conflict with opening a gate and expecting my horses to walk calmly between 0 and 25 feet into their own stable and good groundwork training.
		
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Hmm, my horses behave very differently at liberty to the way they do in hand. If they are brought in en masse, they might argue, pick the wrong stable, decide to go and check someone else's dinner, etc etc. I've seen mayhem result from this practice (YO used to do it with about 12 horses at once in winter. Rarely pretty!)



cptrayes said:



			You write as if you do not believe in inherited behaviour traits Kerilli.
		
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No, I never said anything of the sort.


cptrayes said:



			Whilst it was clear in the end that the horse had a physical problem with his neck from birth, I know that his behaviour was largely hereditary because his father and full brother, neither of whom I have ever had any contact with, were also very quirky. Of course it is possible that both were also wobblers, but since the father was  a GP showjumper and the brother has no_ ridden_ problems at a year older, that seems rather unlikely.
		
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So, his father was a GP sjer (who was, therefore, by definition manageable), and by the sounds of it your horse was 99% unmanageable, but you think his problems stemmed from his genes rather than his neck problem?



cptrayes said:



			Tell that to the people who own Opan offspring   I understand that Totilas' father had a hell of  reputation too, and look at the difficulty Rath is having getting to grips with him.  Winstone Bridget has been bred from in spite of being difficult, because of her huge jump. Her sire Rosewall Grandure, now dead, is well known around here for throwing quirky and argumentative stock with fussy mouths. People breed things with the characteristics they want, they don't always consider the ones they don't 

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Yes, there are always certain lines that are trickier than others, which are known to be more suitable for Pros. e.g. Master Imp lines are well known to be tricky but I don't hear anyone saying immediately "is it an ISH? OMG they are all ______"  



cptrayes said:



			Are not the Dutch big fans of hyperflexion? I don't think that would be the case if these horses readily accepted normal training.
		
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Oh crikey. Let's not even go there, huh? But if we really really have to, can we start with the fact that the first person to use hyperflexion was Nicole Uphoff, on Rembrandt, because he was SO spooky. He was Westphalian, btw... by Romadour II (by Romulus I) and his dam was full sister to Ahlerich. You won't get much more German breeding than that, if my sources are correct!


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## siennamum (4 October 2012)

The way horses behave at liberty vs how they behave in hand or ridden is interesting and unfathomable to me. 

Mine will spend time talking to the herd of cows he shares a fence line with. They are all good buddies.

If you ask him, in hand or ridden to go along the track besides the field at precisely the same spot and the cows are still at the fence he absolutely freaks.

It's a complete mystery to me.


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## Rouletterose (4 October 2012)

To the OP surely you know your horse well enough after all the time you've had him, to work out that it is the constant changing of yards? as told by someone else here. Surely you have worked out that very sensitive horses often in my experience take at least 2 months to settle into a new place? he needs reassurance and good solid work, you have had him long enough that he should be listening to you by now even if he is in a new environment especially after a few weeks.

It sounds as though you are overhorsed, it's all very well wanting to do it yourself, but if you are not able, far better to let someone much more experienced to work him for a few weeks until he settles, before any damage is done.


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## kerilli (4 October 2012)

siennamum said:



			The way horses behave at liberty vs how they behave in hand or ridden is interesting and unfathomable to me. 

Mine will spend time talking to the herd of cows he shares a fence line with. They are all good buddies.

If you ask him, in hand or ridden to go along the track besides the field at precisely the same spot and the cows are still at the fence he absolutely freaks.

It's a complete mystery to me.
		
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Yes, absolutely. I have a mare who is very sweet, polite and easy to lead around but volatile and extremely flighty when loose. She takes her cue from the handler... and I'd NEVER give her the option of bringing herself in to bed!  
Also, some of the bravest ridden horses are NOT brave when left to their own devices. Murphy Himself, surely the bravest scopiest horse most of us have ever seen, was known to be an utter wuss in the field, he got bullied. No kidding. You'd think that kind of bravado would be constant, but apparently not. And some of the most dominant mares in the field are just fine for people to handle... they are smart enough to know when to throw their weight about, maybe!

Sorry OP, didn't mean to derail your thread. Rouletterose has a valid point. I think I'd be repeating "time = confidence to a horse" and giving him a lot more time, i'd prob go back to baby steps and calm repetition of v easy things, if you can, until his confidence grows again.


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## cptrayes (4 October 2012)

kerilli said:



			I was interpreting your exact words....... I took this to mean that this was the usual way you did it.
		
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It did not occur to me that anyone would assume that the horse was never taught to lead just because it was not caught and led to a stable door ten feet from the gate to bring it in.

It is the way I _always_ let my horses in. It does not mean that I neglect their groundwork.




			So, his father was a GP sjer (who was, therefore, by definition manageable), and by the sounds of it your horse was 99% unmanageable, but you think his problems stemmed from his genes rather than his neck problem?
		
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Since his father was known to be very inconsistent and quirky in spite of being in pro hands, and since his full brother exhibits some of the same extreme behaviours but no ridden physical difficultes and is a year older,  yes. 


Kerilli you seem to be assuming that I am against all Dutch horses. I'm not.  I just wanted the OP to understand that at least one person realises that unless we actually ride and handle her horse we cannot really know what is going on, and that my experience is that there are some horses which are extremely difficult. I have heard personally of more Dutch like it than German but I'm sure there are some crazy Irish Drafts out there too. 


I just hate the way people come onto a forum asking for help and saying their horse is, for example, dominant, only to be told by people who don't know it, haven't ridden it and don't know the rider that they are incorrect in describing it as dominant.  This isn't aimed at you Kerilli. And it's only one example. It happens all the time on forums. 

It really would be nice, if I say that my horse was like nothing I have ever owned or managed or even been anywhere near before, to be believed instead of told that I didn't know what I was doing when I was training him


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## kerilli (4 October 2012)

Crikey. Nobody said that you'd 'never taught to lead'... but it was very easy to infer, from what you wrote, that you let your horses bring themselves in for 3 years!
There's more room to go awol in 25 feet than 10 feet, too...  
I never said that you didn't know what you were doing with him, either. What a very strange defensive attitude you have. *puzzled*


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## cptrayes (4 October 2012)

kerilli said:



			Crikey. Nobody said that you'd 'never taught to lead'... but it was very easy to infer, from what you wrote, that you let your horses bring themselves in for 3 years!
There's more room to go awol in 25 feet than 10 feet, too...  
I never said that you didn't know what you were doing with him, either. What a very strange defensive attitude you have. *puzzled*
		
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What is it with this picking over individual words K?

HIS stable door was 10 feet from the gate. My hunter's is around 25 feet from the gate and my third, if I have one,'s stable is right at the gate.


I've let my horses bring themselves in for 21 years, not 3     If someone told me that they would walk out into a muddy field in the dark to put headcollars and ropes on three horses and lead them into stables a maximum of 25 feet away I would laugh at how stupid they were to get their own boots dirty


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## kirstykate (4 October 2012)

Ferdinase514 said:



			If you want control just put the horse in draw reins 

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Wish I was as brave as you


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## LCH611 (4 October 2012)

[QUOTE

It sounds as though you are overhorsed, it's all very well wanting to do it yourself, but if you are not able, far better to let someone much more experienced to work him for a few weeks until he settles, before any damage is done.[/QUOTE]

Blimey that's a bit harsh! I agree with CPTrayes that some horses are just difficult and without seing the horse & rider together we can't really hope to understand what might work for them and all we can do is offer up suggestions/experiences.

I don't think it is right to assume that all horses are unsettled by a change of yards/routine either, as mine don't seem to be even though they have had massive changes. I expect to be able to ride them in different/varied environments without a problem, so i start with the positive attitude of assuming that they are going to be fine- although I like to give myself a head start by assuming that they are being fed correctly.

I have found the groundwork/in hand debate really interesting (& thank God it got back on track before we were onto another yawnsome bitch-fest & sucking up session around the Sparkle Sisters). I am always short of time bringing my 4 in and out, but I have now worked out which ones can always be trusted to take themselves to the correct place if allowed to be free range, and which one absolutely can't under any circumstances be allowed to go any futher han the threshod of his stable to the back by himself! He always gets tempted to go rampaging off aking as many chums with him as possible. Funnily enough it isn't the most playful one who is the problem as he always goes straight to his own stable regardless of what everyone else is doing.


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## kerilli (4 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			What is it with this picking over individual words K?

HIS stable door was 10 feet from the gate. My hunter's is around 25 feet from the gate and my third, if I have one,'s stable is right at the gate.


I've let my horses bring themselves in for 21 years, not 3     If someone told me that they would walk out into a muddy field in the dark to put headcollars and ropes on three horses and lead them into stables a maximum of 25 feet away I would laugh at how stupid they were to get their own boots dirty 

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much becomes clear.


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## kerilli (4 October 2012)

LCH611 said:



			I am always short of time bringing my 4 in and out, but I have now worked out which ones can always be trusted to take themselves to the correct place if allowed to be free range, and which one absolutely can't under any circumstances be allowed to go any futher han the threshod of his stable to the back by himself! He always gets tempted to go rampaging off aking as many chums with him as possible. Funnily enough it isn't the most playful one who is the problem as he always goes straight to his own stable regardless of what everyone else is doing.
		
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Yes, this. It's a judgement call, which ones will be fine and which ones absolutely won't. In the case of my one who is very flighty and overreactive, it's not only that she'd endanger herself and possibly the others, it would set her confidence back hugely, I am positive.


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## Supanova (4 October 2012)

This thread is like a soap opera - great entertainment!!

I sometimes think that anyone who posts should also be required to put a video of themselves riding..........however i can see this would also end in a some long running, endless argument!


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## bananas_22 (4 October 2012)

Its a shame for the OP if they cannot derive _anything_ useful from this thread, but I do thank you for providing such an entertaining and enlightening thread!!


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## LCH611 (4 October 2012)

kerilli said:



			Yes, this. It's a judgement call, which ones will be fine and which ones absolutely won't. In the case of my one who is very flighty and overreactive, it's not only that she'd endanger herself and possibly the others, it would set her confidence back hugely, I am positive.
		
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My flighty and very overreactive one is always especially pleased with himself when I make an error of judgement and decide to trust to him to go by himself. It usually entails laps through the barn, a bounce up a bank, a hurtle through some bushes a drop down a bigger bank and then back through the barn to rinse & repeat again. When the brambles & nettles have died down he also remembers that there is a potential exit onto 1600 acres of estate which provides great opportunity for mayhem!


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## daffy44 (4 October 2012)

Supanova said:



			This thread is like a soap opera - great entertainment!!

I sometimes think that anyone who posts should also be required to put a video of themselves riding..........however i can see this would also end in a some long running, endless argument!
		
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Totally agree!  I am a new poster, and i have to admit to being horrified at the behaviour of some posters, much better to see it as entertainment!


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (4 October 2012)

kerilli said:



			much becomes clear.
		
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crying.with.laughter.


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## kerilli (4 October 2012)

Supanova said:



			This thread is like a soap opera - great entertainment!!

I sometimes think that anyone who posts should also be required to put a video of themselves riding..........however i can see this would also end in a some long running, endless argument!
		
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Isn't it just? Wish I sold popcorn...    the OP is probably dreading coming back to the thread every time now... 
Some of us have linked to vids of ourselves riding, or included lots of pics on our posts. Warts and all, you know... the way it is in real life.  I'll post a link to mine if you want. *shrugs* nothing at all to hide here.


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## cptrayes (4 October 2012)

LCH611 said:



			My flighty and very overreactive one is always especially pleased with himself when I make an error of judgement and decide to trust to him to go by himself. It usually entails laps through the barn, a bounce up a bank, a hurtle through some bushes a drop down a bigger bank and then back through the barn to rinse & repeat again. When the brambles & nettles have died down he also remembers that there is a potential exit onto 1600 acres of estate which provides great opportunity for mayhem!
		
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Well that would be a stupid thing to do, let a horse come in by himself if he has access to any number of ways to escape, wouldn't it?

My horses, on the other hand, are coming into an area which is completely enclosed, 45 feet by 15 feet, where the only option is to stand on the concrete yard or go into their stable and eat.

Anyone who would choose to headcollar their horses and get their boots muddy leading three horses in, in that situation, would, in my humblest opinion, want their heads examined


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## ellie_e (4 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Well that would be a stupid thing to do, let a horse come in by himself if he has access to any number of ways to escape, wouldn't it?

My horses, on the other hand, are coming into an area which is completely enclosed, 45 feet by 15 feet, where the only option is to stand on the concrete yard or go into their stable and eat.

Anyone who would choose to headcollar their horses and get their boots muddy leading three horses in, in that situation, would, in my humblest opinion, want their heads examined 

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What happened to the old BHS way of leading the damm animal in?? Surely it's easier than, going all monty Roberts on them?!


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## cptrayes (4 October 2012)

ellie_e said:



			What happened to the old BHS way of leading the damm animal in?? Surely it's easier than, going all monty Roberts on them?!
		
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I don't understand your comment 

How can it be easier for one person to go out into the mud, headcollar three horses and lead them in one by one than to open a gate and allow three horses to walk calmly into their respective stables?

I'm afraid I don't believe in expending unnecessary time or energy on a dark winter's night


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## kerilli (4 October 2012)

ellie_e said:



			What happened to the old BHS way of leading the damm animal in?? Surely it's easier than, going all monty Roberts on them?!
		
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*applause*

Sorry, but I can't help thinking that someone with a horse which sounds as if it was a total and utter fruitcake, but who chose the blur the boundaries every single day for years between 'totally at liberty in the field, do whatever you want sunshine' and 'you're required to come in and do something, so please defer to the human, even if just for 20 secs from gate to stable', just to avoid getting a bit of mud on their wellies, really might need their head examined...


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## ellie_e (4 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			I don't understand your comment 

How can it be easier for one person to go out into the mud, headcollar three horses and lead them in one by one than to open a gate and allow three horses to walk calmly into their respective stables?

I'm afraid I don't believe in expending unnecessary time or energy on a dark winter's night 

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Are you joking me? You say your horse is a complete nutter and then let it bring itself in...... What happened to lead one horse at a time.....safely! And where there's horse there will ALWAYS be mud!!


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## ellie_e (4 October 2012)

There's also another staying....... Animals take after their owners!......nuts?


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## cptrayes (4 October 2012)

Kerilli can you please explain to me whose horses (which are not 24/7 stabled) do _not_ live in a situation where the owner is saying every day:

_
" 'totally at liberty in the field, do whatever you want sunshine' and 'you're required to come in and do something, so please defer to the human,"_ ???


Your post makes no sense to me. The 20 seconds that they are spending putting themselves in their boxes is not time I am asking them to defer to me. They are choosing to go for their food. The only thing I ask of them at that time is that they come in quietly one at a time, and that they walk around me and don't invade my space.

You are correct in your initial statement. My KWPN was indeed a fruitcake. I'm glad you got that point.


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## cptrayes (4 October 2012)

ellie_e said:



			Are you joking me? You say your horse is a complete nutter and then let it bring itself in...... What happened to lead one horse at a time.....safely! And where there's horse there will ALWAYS be mud!!
		
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Have you read the thread? 

There was no danger from this animal in that situation. His reaction, very occasionally,  was to refuse to come through the gate, not to come in and cause any trouble. 

Just because there is mud does not seem, to me, to be any reason to stand in it unnecessarily 

Can I offer any of you lurkers popcorn? This looks like it might run for some time, but I will have to take a break for Red Dwarf in a moment


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## MontyandZoom (4 October 2012)

" who chose the blur the boundaries every single day for years between 'totally at liberty in the field, do whatever you want sunshine' and 'you're required to come in and do something, so please defer to the human, even if just for 20 secs from gate to stable' "

Erm.....cptrayes, you kinda left out a pretty important bit of Kerilli's post! It's the blurring the boundries between work time and play time that she was commenting on 

Generally when horses are asked to come in they are asked to defer to humans........by letting yours wander in, but then expecting them to tie-up/be shod/be ridden etc it sends mixed messages. (correct me if I'm wrong Kerilli ).

Anyhoo - jumping in.....then jumping out again. Very entertaining stuff


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## kerilli (4 October 2012)

Riiight... when I said "totally at liberty in the field, do whatever you want sunshine' and 'you're required to come in and do something, so please defer to the human' I was trying to illustrate that for most horse owners (and therefore their horses), that represents a total and utterly clear dichotomy.  The horse at liberty in the field can do pretty much whatever he wants (okay, no fly pasts at me, and no squabbling if I'm near) but as soon as I ask the horse to leave that area of total freedom, he is MINE, he does as I say. He walks, he stops. He waits. He learns obedience. This gives confidence, both ways. 
They know that they'll be required to wait etc. Maybe initially they're bargy, impatient. It doesn't work. They learn and are rewarded. After a bit of this you get the horse who automatically walks through the gate on the end of the rope, turns cleverly with the rope slack, and waits for you to fasten the gate, then walks on with you without needing to be told, pulled etc. Yes? Little bits of daily conditioning to teach the horse obedience, security, reward, teamwork, yadda yadda.
With a horse that presumably came to you with a reputation as a nutter, and did nothing good to dispel that idea, why on earth would you bypass a daily opportunity to create all these good habits, just because you're too lazy to put a headcollar on and take them out of the field one at a time and get a bit of mud on your boots?!
That really is crazy. Or, as a friend used to say, bats**t mental...  

Yes MontyandZoom, exactly. Nail on head.


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## cptrayes (4 October 2012)

kerilli said:



			Riiight... when I said "totally at liberty in the field, do whatever you want sunshine' and 'you're required to come in and do something, so please defer to the human' I was trying to illustrate that for most horse owners (and therefore their horses), that represents a total and utterly clear dichotomy.  The horse at liberty in the field can do pretty much whatever he wants (okay, no fly pasts at me, and no squabbling if I'm near) but as soon as I ask the horse to leave that area of total freedom, he is MINE, he does as I say. He walks, he stops. He waits. He learns obedience. This gives confidence, both ways. 
They know that they'll be required to wait etc. Maybe initially they're bargy, impatient. It doesn't work. They learn and are rewarded. After a bit of this you get the horse who automatically walks through the gate on the end of the rope, turns cleverly with the rope slack, and waits for you to fasten the gate, then walks on with you without needing to be told, pulled etc. Yes? Little bits of daily conditioning to teach the horse obedience, security, reward, teamwork, yadda yadda.
With a horse that presumably came to you with a reputation as a nutter, and did nothing good to dispel that idea, why on earth would you bypass a daily opportunity to create all these good habits, just because you're too lazy to put a headcollar on and take them out of the field one at a time and get a bit of mud on your boots?!
.
		
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You think that kind of training is absolutely critical for the one minute when you bring the horse in from the field?  You think if you miss that one minute it matters in the whole scheme of spending a couple of hours a day with the horse?

Now you are making me smile 

I'll keep on keeping my boots clean I think


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## Ferdinase514 (4 October 2012)

kirstykate said:



			Wish I was as brave as you

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You think i'm joking.....  I think draw reins are the way to go


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## kerilli (4 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			You think that kind of training is absolutely critical for the one minute when you bring the horse in from the field?  You think if you miss that one minute it matters in the whole scheme of spending a couple of hours a day with the horse?

Now you are making me smile 

I'll keep on keeping my boots clean I think 

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Yes, I absolutely do think so. There's nothing at all special about me doing this stuff, millions of us do it every day with our horses, without thinking. 
It's the NOT doing it that requires very very careful thought, especially with a quirky difficult horse. If you really can't see that then I give up.


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## cptrayes (4 October 2012)

There's nothing at all special about me doing this stuff, millions of us do it every day with our horses, without thinking.
		
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Why do you assume that I could not fetch them in one by one with a headcollar if I chose? Of course I could. I just don't when I want them all in together. When I want them one by one, I do exactly that. You are quite right, there is absolutely nothing special about it.




kerilli said:



			If you really can't see that then I give up.
		
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Since no horse has ever left me behaving anything other than better than it arrived (especially so in the case of the nutter), then I will gratefully accept your offer to give up trying to persuade me that your way is the only way. Night night


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## cptrayes (4 October 2012)

delete


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## Rouletterose (4 October 2012)

LCH611 said:



			[QUOTE

It sounds as though you are overhorsed, it's all very well wanting to do it yourself, but if you are not able, far better to let someone much more experienced to work him for a few weeks until he settles, before any damage is done.
		
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Blimey that's a bit harsh! I agree with CPTrayes that some horses are just difficult and without seing the horse & rider together we can't really hope to understand what might work for them and all we can do is offer up suggestions/experiences.

I don't think it is right to assume that all horses are unsettled by a change of yards/routine either, as mine don't seem to be even though they have had massive changes. I expect to be able to ride them in different/varied environments without a problem, so i start with the positive attitude of assuming that they are going to be fine- although I like to give myself a head start by assuming that they are being fed correctly.

I have found the groundwork/in hand debate really interesting (& thank God it got back on track before we were onto another yawnsome bitch-fest & sucking up session around the Sparkle Sisters). I am always short of time bringing my 4 in and out, but I have now worked out which ones can always be trusted to take themselves to the correct place if allowed to be free range, and which one absolutely can't under any circumstances be allowed to go any futher han the threshod of his stable to the back by himself! He always gets tempted to go rampaging off aking as many chums with him as possible. Funnily enough it isn't the most playful one who is the problem as he always goes straight to his own stable regardless of what everyone else is doing.[/QUOTE]

Have you actually read the OP first 4 posts? I think not, you shouldn't make comments until you have fully read the problem.


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## kerilli (4 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Why do you assume that I could not fetch them in one by one with a headcollar if I chose? Of course I could. I just don't when I want them all in together. When I want them one by one, I do exactly that. You are quite right, there is absolutely nothing special about it.
		
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The point is not that you _could_, it's that you _chose not to... _every day. For years, apparently. That makes a HUGE difference. Obviously you cannot see that though, which speaks volumes.



cptrayes said:



			Since no horse has ever left me behaving anything other than better than it arrived (especially so in the case of the nutter), then I will gratefully accept your offer to give up trying to persuade me that your way is the only way. Night night 

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Not 'my way' at all - crikey, I'd be a bigheaded delusional idiot if I thought I was the only one in the world who instills a few manners when leading a horse in and out every day! But it is the way the huge majority of horsey people choose to move their horses around... for good reason! Of course it's not the only way.


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## cptrayes (4 October 2012)

But Kerilli my horses have better manners on the ground than most people's. Except for occasional bizarre  behaviour by one, who was immensely improved when he died at 10 from the horse I bought at 4. 

And yet you seem to think that just because I choose not to catch my horses to bring them in at night, even though I do at other times, that I am somehow not able to give them manners.

Illogical, sorry, and totally incorrect.



Anyone ready for more popcorn yet? I could break open bottle if anyone's interested?


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## kerilli (4 October 2012)

cptrayes said:



			But Kerilli my horses have better manners than most peoples. Except for occasional bizarre and unpredictable behaviour by one, who was immensely improved when he died at 10 from the horse I bought at 4. 

And yet you seem to think that just because I choose not to catch my horses to bring them in I am somehow not able to give them manners.

Illogical, sorry, and totally incorrect.
		
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Oh crikey... it honestly isn't just about instilling manners at all, that's a very small part of it... it's about total consistency, NOT blurring the boundaries! 
I can't quite believe it, but it seems you cannot even see that. Or, are you just playing devil's advocate?
This was apparently a totally illogical nutcase of a horse which took 6 years to get an improvement out of, and then it died, you said... 
now I really am giving up. 
nn everyone. hope you enjoyed your popcorn!


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## cptrayes (4 October 2012)

kerilli said:



			Oh crikey... it honestly isn't just about instilling manners at all, that's a very small part of it... it's about total consistency, NOT blurring the boundaries!
		
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I don't blur the boundaries. The rules for coming into the yard are the same ones as when they are in their stables.  The moment they pass through that gate the rules are my rules, playtime is over.




			I can't quite believe it, but it seems you cannot even see that. Or, are you just playing devil's advocate?
		
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No, I just think you are wrong that it matters so much that I don't put headcollars on my horses to bring them in from the field. 




			This was apparently a totally illogical nutcase of a horse which took 6 years to get an improvement out of, and then it died, you said...
		
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In six years in my care the horse improved beyond recognition. It was a crying shame, quite literally, that he died just when all my hard work was paying off big time. I also loved him like no other horse before, he had a personality the size of a house.




			now I really am giving up.
		
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Ah, now you've promised me that once already. I hope you mean it this time. 
Nighty night.


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## TarrSteps (5 October 2012)

It was me who made the observation that the horse did not sound dominant, in the way that term is used in behaviour theory, leaving aside it's validity as a concept in Equine training.

I also made the point that 'submission' in the way it's used in dressage/training is a different concept again. This horse may or may not need to be 'dominated', he certainly needs to be made more submissive to the rider/aids but there may, in fact, be numerous paths to that end.


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## Supanova (5 October 2012)

I am not taking sides on this but I would just like to applaud both cptrayes and kerrilli for their persistence!  

Kerrilli - i have a lot of respect for you from your various posts and i have seen your videos so i know that your words are backed up by riding experience!

cptrayes - i don't know anything about you but it seems for some reason that there is some underlying argument with you and the princesssparkle and there are other people on this forum who have taken against you!  I don't know the background to this but I am impressed that you have not just given up on your argument whether it be right or wrong!!

As a final word (or two)...i agree that there are odd horses that will always be difficult but as someone else on here said.........horses are most often a reflection of their owner........


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## LCH611 (5 October 2012)

kerilli said:



			Riiight... when I said "totally at liberty in the field, do whatever you want sunshine' and 'you're required to come in and do something, so please defer to the human' I was trying to illustrate that for most horse owners (and therefore their horses), that represents a total and utterly clear dichotomy.  The horse at liberty in the field can do pretty much whatever he wants (okay, no fly pasts at me, and no squabbling if I'm near) but as soon as I ask the horse to leave that area of total freedom, he is MINE, he does as I say. He walks, he stops. He waits. He learns obedience. This gives confidence, both ways. 
They know that they'll be required to wait etc. Maybe initially they're bargy, impatient. It doesn't work. They learn and are rewarded. After a bit of this you get the horse who automatically walks through the gate on the end of the rope, turns cleverly with the rope slack, and waits for you to fasten the gate, then walks on with you without needing to be told, pulled etc. Yes? Little bits of daily conditioning to teach the horse obedience, security, reward, teamwork, yadda yadda.
.
		
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This is an extremely valid point. I am guilty of being in such a rush with reduced daylight hours, no electricity, school run & commute to work that I have slipped into the habit of only leading the naughty one & the newly acquired baby, leaving the slow pottery pony who lags behind & gets nipped by the others to come with his rope round his neck, & the one that otherwise has to be retrieved from the bottom of the field to bring himself in, in order to save precious minutes. Once in their stables however they all have to back up & be polite about being fed, rugged & having feet picked out.

Rouletterose of course I have read the first 4 posts - I am glued to this thread because of its fascinating mix of useful insights & Cptrayes' utter determination to be bloodyminded & fight with everyone. If more posts are added whilst I rush out to get more popcorn I will read them with great alacrity when i get back!


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## BeckyD (5 October 2012)

Crikey I've missed all the fun!  Blame a busy week at work.  

OP it does sound like your horses is simply unsettled with the move - as persevering riding isn't working then I'd perhaps give him a little holiday and see if that helps.  

As regards all the other stuff, I'm afraid the only horses I've known be allowed to bring themselves in have been opinionated b*ggers who have absolutely zero respect for humans.  Well, perhaps a little.  But not enough to make them pleasant to work with.

My previous horse was a dominant TB, dominant in a stalliony way (vets blood-tested him and he wasn't a rig, although subsequent vets questionned the results as they didn't think they could be right).  He could be difficult to handle on the ground.  In fact, he could be vicious.  To ride, he was FANTASTIC.  Seriously wonderful.  I never quite understand how that could be possible.  Anyway, the one thing he taught me, was that the stable was "his" space and woebetide me if I tried to do anything to him whilst he was at liberty in there.  If I wanted to groom him or change rugs etc, he came out and was tied up.  He was then charming.  Much the same in the field.  I recall a "Tigger on Speed" incident when I tried poo-picking with him in there 

Anyway, the purpose of my waffle is to say that I'm afraid I wouldn't be letting horses bring themselves in.  From my limited experience I have found that being the leader of the pack is so important, and not something we should give up on simply due to the fear of mud/tight timescales.  Those are not reasons to (IMO) cut corners.


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## Kelpie (5 October 2012)

LCH611 said:



			This is an extremely valid point. I am guilty of being in such a rush with reduced daylight hours, no electricity, school run & commute to work that I have slipped into the habit of only leading the naughty one & the newly acquired baby, leaving the slow pottery pony who lags behind & gets nipped by the others to come with his rope round his neck, & the one that otherwise has to be retrieved from the bottom of the field to bring himself in, in order to save precious minutes. Once in their stables however they all have to back up & be polite about being fed, rugged & having feet picked out.

Rouletterose of course I have read the first 4 posts - I am glued to this thread because of its fascinating mix of useful insights & Cptrayes' utter determination to be bloodyminded & fight with everyone. If more posts are added whilst I rush out to get more popcorn I will read them with great alacrity when i get back!
		
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Another one here with their popcorn  

However.... Shoot me if u will but with my lot, once they know what's what and are general well behaved, I am not convinced it does any harm to be flexible in some things .... My most established lad I event on is welcome to let me know if he wants to stay in or out (tho always politely) and it also makes life easier sometimes to bring the youngsters in and let him come in by himself and it hasn't caused him to be any the less good overall as a result. OTOH, much stricter rules with the youngsters.... Horses for courses maybe?


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## cptrayes (5 October 2012)

BeckyD said:



			As regards all the other stuff, I'm afraid the only horses I've known be allowed to bring themselves in have been opinionated b*ggers who have absolutely zero respect for humans. Well, perhaps a little. But not enough to make them pleasant to work with.
		
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You haven't met mine. They have manners to burn. I do not have to tie them up to do anything with them. I even trim their feet without tying them up. They have total respect for me and a child could handle them in spite of them both being 17 handers, sharp and fit. 




			Anyway, the purpose of my waffle is to say that I'm afraid I wouldn't be letting horses bring themselves in.  From my limited experience I have found that being the leader of the pack is so important, and not something we should give up on simply due to the fear of mud/tight timescales.  Those are not reasons to (IMO) cut corners.
		
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I am leader of the pack, nothing has been "given up on". I do not need to waste my time and get my boots dirty in order to be leader of the pack with my horses. 

I am not tight for time. I am extremely lucky and can generally spend several hours a day with my horses. I choose not to dirty my boots because it is absolutely pointless to do so. 

If you need to get your boots dirty and waste time bringing in horses one by  one, so be it. But please don't think we are all unable to control our horses if we allow them to walk calmly into a small yard and put themselves into their stables. 

I've heard of lot of nonsense on threads on this board but this thread is priceless 

More popcorn anyone? I'm afraid I've just polished off the Cabernet


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## cptrayes (5 October 2012)

LCH611 said:



			Cptrayes' utter determination to be bloodyminded & fight with everyone.
		
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Excuse me?

I made what I hoped would be one helpful suggestion to the OP and was attacked for my suggestion by a number of other posters.

Since when has it been a crime to defend yourself and tell other people that you do not agree with their views?  

I object strongly to the way you have written about me in this post.


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## Andiamo (5 October 2012)

Hello again, fellow posters...

this thread went way off track...and to be honest, I haven't read past page 4, and don't feel the need to read the following: 
 - personal attacks from some certain posters against others
 - complete disrespect of each other's opinions and experiences
 - utter nonsensical advice being uttered by people who don't even understand the original question
 - it descended into arguments, bickering, slandering 

It is such a misuse of this forum. 
Do those of you who have launched personal attacks, and been rude / disrespectful - did it make you feel better? Did it prove to everyone that you know what you're talking about? Did it prove that you're right? 

*The answer to all these questions is a two letter word. *

I would hope that going forward, that you show some respect for other people, and behave yourself when posting. Abide by the phrase: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all". 

As a bit of fun, with regards to the argument about horses being led with headcollars / bridles... watch this video. I think someone had better call the BHS police immediately - this man MUST be stopped!!! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpoHaUBi9QY&feature=related 



*Now behave!!!! *


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## TarrSteps (6 October 2012)

So, how is your horse getting on?


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## Amaranta (6 October 2012)

Prince33Sp4rkle said:



			actually you cure it by doing consistant logical work in and around fillers so the work becomes the comfort blanket and the horse learns to focus on that and not its surroundings.

you dont stop him looking, you train him not to want or need to do it, big difference.

at what level did said horse compete and how did he/she progress with that method of training? how did scores improve etc?
		
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I completely agree with this.

I also agree about the double bridle, too many people are too quick to resort to one and forget about the training, as a judge I see this quite often (and as PS says, I WILL comment) and as a competitor my AM horse is still in a snaffle and getting decent scores.


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## Amymay (8 October 2012)

Andiamo said:



			Absolutely  I was thinking that as I wrote it  



I wouldn't mind him being out, I have enough turn out rugs for him. But then he wouldn't get his twice daily feeds, because I can't get there twice a day. I moved from DIY because I needed the extra help, also the mucking out and field poo-picking was killing my back (old riding injuries). If he goes back on grass, I will be back to having to poo pick (unless I can find someone to do and pay them). Grass livery definitely is kinder on the wallet. It also made him easier, and less stressed. Hmmm, must consider this option...
		
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Seems like (at least for the moment anyway) 24/7 turnout could be your answer.  It will obviously need someone seeing to the horse twice a day (clearly).  But that's what I'd go with.

Moving yards can be hugely stressful for some horses - and your horse sounds stressed.  That coupled with the fact that he sees you only once a day (the one constant in his life) must be adding to the stress.  Especially as you are stressed about his lack of 'submission'.......

Seems like the poor horse doesn't know whether it's coming or going.


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## henryhorn (8 October 2012)

I have followed this thread with interest, there has been some wise advice given and some excuses at times from you why  it isn't possible to follow it. 
I find some things confusing, if you are as experienced as you say (and truly I'm not being bitchy just stating a fact) you would know why your horse is behaving the way he is. 
He has changed homes, a deeply unsettling thing in many horse's lives so of course he is stressed. Imagine starting a new school and facing unknown pupils who may bite/kick or just ignore you. The kindest way to cope with a move like this is a week of nothing but chill out time. No riding just visits from you with titbits and a reassuring groom now and then. 
The ridden problems need help by ground work. Not the natural horsemanship type start lungeing him with two reins back to your hands and do everything you would do when riding him. Any spooking or messing about is solvable with two reins, as is that rushed canter. You may find you have to be fairly determined re his slowing his canter down but using two reins gives you finesse if you do it enough times. He will also feel secure being able to see you and know you are there on the bridle. 
The other thing is feeding. I would be ensuring he has ad lib forage if he has to be in and virtually no hard feed until he settles. 
As for turn out if you really must have him in overnight (and I appreciate some yards insist) then try and turn him out as many hours as you can, and with just two companions not in a massive bunch. 
I think the majority of partnerships go through problem stages, I know we do with our horses, but we always sit and think hard why and always there is a reason. One thing I have learned and it is a very difficult thing for one horse owners to ever understand, is sometimes the horse you have bought for a specific discipline just isn't mentally suited for it. You probably love your horse but ask yourself, has the the brain to cope with what you want from him? If the answer is no then find something he loves and does well and sell him on. 
I have been breeding horses for many years now and some just don't suit a specific job; often they excell doing something else and I do wonder with all the difficulties mentioned in this thread whether he is what you need. 
I understand your basic request in the original post, but quite honestly if you have to ask then you may not be the right person for this horse either.. It takes a lot to sometimes face facts, from what you have said he may perform better in a professional's hands where he won't even attempt to try it on.
Apologies if this offends but you did ask for help, I would also suggest if you don't want to turn him away for a week get a good instructor to watch you ride him (and I mean someone who is a well known dressage name, not the average BHSAI). Those top trainers can make an enormous difference in even one session, do pm me if you want some name suggestions..


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## TarrSteps (8 October 2012)

^  Very good advice, if not always what people want to hear.  The old "never teach a pig to sing" idea. 

Also, OP, these threads are always a bit "to the common knowledge" not just to the person who starts them, especially since the people offering advice may actually have other people in mind when they are answering.  It's always useful to think what advice YOU would give, if you were not on the receiving end, just to cut the emotion a bit.


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## Froggy1990 (10 October 2012)

nikkimariet said:



			Yes, very silly of you. 

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In future, may I suggest you use the following phrase; "The discussion is not relevant to me, my sister or either of our horses, let us not discuss them further " instead of the in-depth analysis?  You think you could do that???


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (10 October 2012)

hmmm, you've made precisely 3 posts since joining, all to have a dig, and having got this thread back on track, oh look here you are to de-rail it again......

perhaps you could try and find somthing more relevant to contribute??? you think you could do that?


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## kerilli (10 October 2012)

PS, do you want some popcorn to feed that troll? there seems to be a lot of it around here...


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## Prince33Sp4rkle (10 October 2012)

i think my greedy OH ate all my popcorn so yeah, extra popcorn would be appreciated K...........!


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## bex1984 (10 October 2012)

I know nothing, so maybe I am being overly simplistic here...but sounds like horse is just unsettled by the move and/or needs more turnout?! Especially as OP states that things were going well 80% of the time before the move and it's just been a big step backwards. It's easy to over-analyse and worry and stress, when maybe all that is needed is a bit of time to settle and adjust?


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