# Police pulling over horseboxes on M11



## HHnewsdesk (29 February 2012)

Were any forumers among the 26 horseboxes pulled over and checked by VOSA, police and animal health last week (23 Feb) at junction 7 of the M11.
We have been contacted by one driver who was given very misleading info and I'm keen to find out if others were too.
Many thanks 
Charlotte, deputy news ed
charlotte_white@ipcmedia.com and 020 314 84553


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## ROG (29 February 2012)

HHnewsdesk said:



			Were any forumers among the 26 horseboxes pulled over and checked by VOSA, police and animal health last week (23 Feb) at junction 7 of the M11.
We have been contacted by one driver who was given very misleading info and I'm keen to find out if others were too.
Many thanks 
Charlotte, deputy news ed
charlotte_white@ipcmedia.com and 020 314 84553
		
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What was the misleading info alledged to be given please?


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## ILuvCowparsely (1 March 2012)

Bloody stupid thing to do if you ask me pulling over a horsebox on the motorway.

 What happens if its on a life or death mission to Newmarket???

 what happens if the horses start to panic or stressed waiting inside start kicking the boxes??


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## Alec Swan (1 March 2012)

Leviathan said:



			Bloody stupid thing to do if you ask me pulling over a horsebox on the motorway.

 What happens if its on a life or death mission to Newmarket???

 what happens if the horses start to panic or stressed waiting inside start kicking the boxes??



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Quite possibly,  but there are many horse boxes which are driven on derv(red diesel to you and I),  which is generally why they're stopped,  and the risks to horses isn't a good enough excuse to prevent vehicle checks.

I'm playing at being the Devil's Advocate here,  and simply putting the views of the Authorities.

Alec.


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## zaminda (1 March 2012)

Considering the amount of accidents involving broken down vehicles on the side of the motorway I would have thought the ploice would have signalled the vehicles to pull off motorway if they wanted to stop them. sadly common sense is lacking in the police force, so I doubt they did!


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## ROG (1 March 2012)

Whats all this about stopping them ON the motorway !!

Thay were pulled off at J7 M11 and as you can se from THIS GOOGLE MAP LINK there is a designated place for safely doing all the checks in the middle of the roundabout

Does anyone relly think that the authorities choose to stop vehicles carrying animals on the hard shoulder and put all concerned at risk?


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## HHnewsdesk (1 March 2012)

Sorry all if you misunderstood what I posted. 
My issue is not with the spotchecks  which were done safely in the special area at Junc7  but with the wrong info given to a lady who contacted me.
She was told she needed a certificate of competence when she does not as she is a private driver.
I was just trying to find out whether anyone else was stopped in the same activity.


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## Freddie19 (1 March 2012)

HHnewsdesk said:



			Sorry all if you misunderstood what I posted. 
My issue is not with the spotchecks  which were done safely in the special area at Junc7  but with the wrong info given to a lady who contacted me.
She was told she needed a certificate of competence when she does not as she is a private driver.
I was just trying to find out whether anyone else was stopped in the same activity.
		
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Just a quick point, was the lady carrying just her own horses in lorry, as, even if she was giving a friend's horse, as I understand it, (married to retired trucker, who blows up at any mention of vosa!) she would need certificate of competence.  For reward or not.  I wait to be put back in my box.


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## ROG (1 March 2012)

I hope you have a comfy box - LOL

http://www.horsedrivingtrials.co.uk/reference/wato/wato.htm

http://www.prprescue.com/Whats_New/...tance_Certifcates/competance_certifcates.html

http://www.horseit.com/en/riding2001/Transport/WATO050308.htm

http://www.nptc.org.uk/latest-news/detail.asp?dsid=197


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## Freddie19 (1 March 2012)

ROG said:



			I hope you have a comfy box - LOL

http://www.horsedrivingtrials.co.uk/reference/wato/wato.htm

http://www.prprescue.com/Whats_New/...tance_Certifcates/competance_certifcates.html

http://www.horseit.com/en/riding2001/Transport/WATO050308.htm

http://www.nptc.org.uk/latest-news/detail.asp?dsid=197

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Indeed I have, am I being put back in it?   Oh yeah fount of all information!


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## ROG (1 March 2012)

I found the certificate of competence issue covered on a PDF by ..... VOSA
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Horsebox Guide low res.pdf 
page 19 of 26





			1) Certificate of Competence
for the handling and
transportation of horses
Regulation (EC) 1/2005 applies to those people that transport horses in connection with a business or trade.* The regulations dont apply to those who transport horses in relation to non-economic purposes e.g. to and from a specialist show or competition (even where they may win a minor cash prize). *However, welfare protection for journeys made in relation to non-business transportation is afforded through provisions set down in WATEO 2006
		
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## DebbieCG (3 March 2012)

Sorry if this is covered in any of the links, but what's the legal requirement with regards to carrying passports when horses are transported?


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## Lynette (3 March 2012)

Passports must be carried whenever a horse is in a wheeled vehicle.

Very annoying to turn up to pick a horse up for the owner/loaner to say they have no passport as if I then move this horse I run the risk of being fined up to £5,000.  Consequently why many professional transporters will not move a horse without its passport.


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## zeddiboi (8 March 2012)

HI there

I was one of the lorries pulled over on this particular day when i was on my way to a lesson with Nettie Lewis @ Norton Heath with one of my horses.

I found the police & animal health officer very helpful, friendly and was held for around 10-15 minutes. I have never been pulled over before and my legs were like jelly pulling into the VOSA area.

After the police checked out my lorry, tax, insurance, plating & driving licence, i was approached by a lovely lady from the council.

After a brief chat on which she reminded me to have my horses passport on me at all times (i thought i only needed it for shows) she asked me if i had a certificate of competence and or did i compete for "economic gain" or travel over 40 miles. After joking that there was no gain in horses she explained that even a rosette or trophy can be described as that.

The lady was very pleasant and sent me on my way and said that i would receive a letter confirming that i had been advised to bring my passports with me. At no point was i threatened with the lorry being impounded and i got the impression the police/council exercise was as much an informative role as well as a policing matter. 

A few days later the letter came and in it they had wrote that on further investigations with VOSA, i did in fact not need a certificate of competence.

I think it's a very grey area regarding transporting your own horse, other peoples horses or transporting as a business.

If "horsey" people find it confusing, what chance has a non-horsey person got. 

Its only that i read H&H and compete that i vaguely know of any of these regulations.  Perhaps it might be a good idea that VOSA issue clear guidelines regarding the transportation of horses and every time a lorry is taxed or plated a reminder be sent/issued and that way we will all know what the rules are.


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## perfect11s (8 March 2012)

zeddiboi said:



			HI there

I was one of the lorries pulled over on this particular day when i was on my way to a lesson with Nettie Lewis @ Norton Heath with one of my horses.

I found the police & animal health officer very helpful, friendly and was held for around 10-15 minutes. I have never been pulled over before and my legs were like jelly pulling into the VOSA area.

After the police checked out my lorry, tax, insurance, plating & driving licence, i was approached by a lovely lady from the council.

After a brief chat on which she reminded me to have my horses passport on me at all times (i thought i only needed it for shows) she asked me if i had a certificate of competence and or did i compete for "economic gain" or travel over 40 miles. After joking that there was no gain in horses she explained that even a rosette or trophy can be described as that.

The lady was very pleasant and sent me on my way and said that i would receive a letter confirming that i had been advised to bring my passports with me. At no point was i threatened with the lorry being impounded and i got the impression the police/council exercise was as much an informative role as well as a policing matter. 

A few days later the letter came and in it they had wrote that on further investigations with VOSA, i did in fact not need a certificate of competence.

I think it's a very grey area regarding transporting your own horse, other peoples horses or transporting as a business.

If "horsey" people find it confusing, what chance has a non-horsey person got. 

Its only that i read H&H and compete that i vaguely know of any of these regulations.  Perhaps it might be a good idea that VOSA issue clear guidelines regarding the transportation of horses and every time a lorry is taxed or plated a reminder be sent/issued and that way we will all know what the rules are.



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 Its not up to VOSA or the police  to send out guidance they are there in an inforcement role and  they are not your friend,  sorry but its up to the lorry owner and or the driver  to swat up and understand the law so if you are stopped  you know what is right or wrong and you can and cannot do  and how to answer questions, for instance  above 7.5 ton you need to understand  and use the tachograph , drivers hours , anything over 3.5 ton for hire or reward needs an operators licence, (and no winning a rossete, trophy or a small prize is not hire or reward if you are a private competitor its only if you do it to make a living!!)  Knowlage is power if you are confident you are doing it  right within the law its alot harder for these tin pot dictators to get one across on you , some are ok and reasonble
others are just the sort of people who would been traffic wardens  or SS officers in another life  ....


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## EmmasMummy (8 March 2012)

zeddiboi said:



			HI there

I was one of the lorries pulled over on this particular day when i was on my way to a lesson with Nettie Lewis @ Norton Heath with one of my horses.

I found the police & animal health officer very helpful, friendly and was held for around 10-15 minutes. I have never been pulled over before and my legs were like jelly pulling into the VOSA area.

After the police checked out my lorry, tax, insurance, plating & driving licence, i was approached by a lovely lady from the council.

After a brief chat on which she reminded me to have my horses passport on me at all times (i thought i only needed it for shows) she asked me if i had a certificate of competence and or did i compete for "economic gain" or travel over 40 miles. *After joking that there was no gain in horses she explained that even a rosette or trophy can be described as that.*

The lady was very pleasant and sent me on my way and said that i would receive a letter confirming that i had been advised to bring my passports with me. At no point was i threatened with the lorry being impounded and i got the impression the police/council exercise was as much an informative role as well as a policing matter. 

A few days later the letter came and in it they had wrote that on further investigations with VOSA, i did in fact not need a certificate of competence.

I think it's a very grey area regarding transporting your own horse, other peoples horses or transporting as a business.

If "horsey" people find it confusing, what chance has a non-horsey person got. 

Its only that i read H&H and compete that i vaguely know of any of these regulations.  Perhaps it might be a good idea that VOSA issue clear guidelines regarding the transportation of horses and every time a lorry is taxed or plated a reminder be sent/issued and that way we will all know what the rules are.



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Is that correct?  Even a 10p rosette can be glassed as gain?  Surely not if you pay say £10 to enter the class and you win a rosette, there is no gain what so ever unless you win over £10?


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## sport horse (8 March 2012)

Interesting comments. I spent a day at the Road Haulage Association discussing this subject - H & H also attended. VOSA are unwilling to define 'modest prize money' and 'economic gain' so it is impossible to obey the law as it has not been clarified. 

The H & H and Road Haulage Association both felt that if you were not making a profit from your operation you were within the law. Hysterical laughter ensued as how many people do make a profit from horse activities?

In reality as I understand it until such time as someone challenges VOSA in court (& so far everyone has paid a fine rather than being brave or wealthy enough to take them on) and a judge actually makes a clear legal decision the rules are woolly and pretty nigh impossible to be 100% certain you are abiding by them other than by having operators licence/Competancy certificates etc which cost a fortune and many of which you probably do not need.


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## perfect11s (8 March 2012)

sport horse said:



			Interesting comments. I spent a day at the Road Haulage Association discussing this subject - H & H also attended. VOSA are unwilling to define 'modest prize money' and 'economic gain' so it is impossible to obey the law as it has not been clarified. 

The H & H and Road Haulage Association both felt that if you were not making a profit from your operation you were within the law. Hysterical laughter ensued as how many people do make a profit from horse activities?

In reality as I understand it until such time as someone challenges VOSA in court (& so far everyone has paid a fine rather than being brave or wealthy enough to take them on) and a judge actually makes a clear legal decision the rules are woolly and pretty nigh impossible to be 100% certain you are abiding by them other than by having operators licence/Competancy certificates etc which cost a fortune and many of which you probably do not need.
		
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 Good points , realy someone like the BHS should be willing  to take on a genuine case on someones behalf to clarify the rules , sadly most of the laws are from the EU  and have the aim of making road haulage the most highly regulated in the world!!! however the  reason for operators licences is to try make and  sure of a level playing field so genuine haulage bussines isnt  disavantaged by flyby night operators that flout the law,


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## ROG (8 March 2012)

A court case will NEVER be able to cover all the possibilities which might be considered commercial or not

Each case would need to be taken on its own merits

The simple way to determine whether something is commercial or not is ....
Is the intention to make profit?
Does it make profit?

If the answer is no to both then it is not commercial


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## perfect11s (8 March 2012)

ROG said:



			A court case will NEVER be able to cover all the possibilities which might be considered commercial or not

Each case would need to be taken on its own merits

The simple way to determine whether something is commercial or not is ....
Is the intention to make profit?
Does it make profit?

If the answer is no to both then it is not commercial
		
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 Yes but that is what a case could establish  ie private person goes to a show pays £120 for diesel £65 for stabling, £45 entry fees. forgets and has to buy some tack at the event and kids demand feeding at a roach coach costs £25 for a few half cooked bacon  rolls and lukewarm weak tea.. wins say a £25 voucher for a tack shop 300miles away, and a couple of rossetes, Your call Mr vosa man!!!!


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## hollyandivy123 (8 March 2012)

hi this is the information on the VOSA website

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Horsebox Guide low res.pdf

i don't know if anyone else has posted this but i have not read the whole thread


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## ROG (8 March 2012)

perfect11s said:



			Yes but that is what a case could establish  ie private person goes to a show pays £120 for diesel £65 for stabling, £45 entry fees. forgets and has to buy some tack at the event and kids demand feeding at a roach coach costs £25 for a few half cooked bacon  rolls and lukewarm weak tea.. wins say a £25 voucher for a tack shop 300miles away, and a couple of rossetes, Your call Mr vosa man!!!!
		
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That is one particular case and cannot be held as a precident by a court unless an identical case was presented

If the authorities decide there is an individual case to answer then they have the option to bring it to court

How many actual cases on this issue have been to court and successfully prosecuted?


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## zeddiboi (8 March 2012)

zeddiboi said:



			HI there

I was one of the lorries pulled over on this particular day when i was on my way to a lesson with Nettie Lewis @ Norton Heath with one of my horses.

I found the police & animal health officer very helpful, friendly and was held for around 10-15 minutes. I have never been pulled over before and my legs were like jelly pulling into the VOSA area.

After the police checked out my lorry, tax, insurance, plating & driving licence, i was approached by a lovely lady from the council.

After a brief chat on which she reminded me to have my horses passport on me at all times (i thought i only needed it for shows) she asked me if i had a certificate of competence and or did i compete for "economic gain" or travel over 40 miles. After joking that there was no gain in horses she explained that even a rosette or trophy can be described as that.

The lady was very pleasant and sent me on my way and said that i would receive a letter confirming that i had been advised to bring my passports with me. At no point was i threatened with the lorry being impounded and i got the impression the police/council exercise was as much an informative role as well as a policing matter. 

A few days later the letter came and in it they had wrote that on further investigations with VOSA, i did in fact not need a certificate of competence.

I think it's a very grey area regarding transporting your own horse, other peoples horses or transporting as a business.

If "horsey" people find it confusing, what chance has a non-horsey person got. 

Its only that i read H&H and compete that i vaguely know of any of these regulations.  Perhaps it might be a good idea that VOSA issue clear guidelines regarding the transportation of horses and every time a lorry is taxed or plated a reminder be sent/issued and that way we will all know what the rules are.



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Yes i have been pulled over in the car before by just the people you have described!! 
I can only go on what i was told & the lady said that even a ribbon or a trophy came under the "economic gain" umbrella & speak as i find regarding the authorities on the day. I thought economic gain was different to hire & reward? Anyone know the definitions of these terms?


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## SpruceRI (9 March 2012)

Taken from VOSA's 'A Guide For Horsebox and Trailer owners'

"The rules on 'economic gain' with regard to driving your own horse to a competition whether in a box or trailer are rather muddled.  This is from Vosa's guide to transporting horses:

Horses and/or associated kit and provisions are deemed to be transported for hire or reward if that transport is done as part of a commercial equestrian activity, if there is an 
expectation of receiving more than just MODEST prize-money, or if any kind of significant 
corporate sponsorship is received. In other words, if transporting horses is done as part of an equestrian activity which goes beyond what could reasonably be considered a hobby  ie it is designed to make a profit, or be at least COST NEUTRAL, then it should be considered to be a hire or reward operation. 

In deciding whether or not you need an operators licence, you should firstly 
consider whether your equestrian activity is very much a hobby, and if you can reasonably be deemed to have amateur status. If its the case that your expenditure 
is more than you could ever hope to gain in prize-money or sponsorship, and you dont 
consider your activity to be a business, then you dont need an operators licence. 

This should account for most people who transport horses as part of their hobby.          

Where transport is in connection with an amateur activity and for nothing more than 
fuel money (purely to cover costs), then an operators licence will not be required."

So I suppose on the odd occasion you might win more prize money than it cost you in entry fees - but unless you live next door or down the road to the venue, it's unlikely to exceed your fuel costs?  And if it does, how will they prove that?  

The rules are always a bit 'foggy' - I think I might print the whole document out and carry it in my car should I get stopped.


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## perfect11s (9 March 2012)

SpruceRI said:



			Taken from VOSA's 'A Guide For Horsebox and Trailer owners'

"The rules on 'economic gain' with regard to driving your own horse to a competition whether in a box or trailer are rather muddled.  This is from Vosa's guide to transporting horses:

Horses and/or associated kit and provisions are deemed to be transported for hire or reward if that transport is done as part of a commercial equestrian activity, if there is an 
expectation of receiving more than just MODEST prize-money, or if any kind of significant 
corporate sponsorship is received. In other words, if transporting horses is done as part of an equestrian activity which goes beyond what could reasonably be considered a hobby &#8211; ie it is designed to make a profit, or be at least COST NEUTRAL, then it should be considered to be a hire or reward operation. 

In deciding whether or not you need an operator&#8217;s licence, you should firstly 
consider whether your equestrian activity is very much a hobby, and if you can reasonably be deemed to have amateur status. If it&#8217;s the case that your expenditure 
is more than you could ever hope to gain in prize-money or sponsorship, and you don&#8217;t 
consider your activity to be a business, then you don&#8217;t need an operator&#8217;s licence. 

This should account for most people who transport horses as part of their hobby.          

Where transport is in connection with an amateur activity and for nothing more than 
fuel money (purely to cover costs), then an operator&#8217;s licence will not be required."

So I suppose on the odd occasion you might win more prize money than it cost you in entry fees - but unless you live next door or down the road to the venue, it's unlikely to exceed your fuel costs?  And if it does, how will they prove that?  

The rules are always a bit 'foggy' - I think I might print the whole document out and carry it in my car should I get stopped.
		
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 Good idea for everone to do that, it would be very hard for indvidual Vosa officers to argue against there own guidance  which sounds very reasonable!!! but surely they would have been issued with this and be singing from that hymm sheet, or aleast have it to refer to if they were to  stop a private HGV.....


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## zaminda (9 March 2012)

I would suggest anyone who was told that they competed for economic gain and wanted to argue it could then request a tax rebate for all expenses. It would more than cover the fine!


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## zeddiboi (9 March 2012)

I think I'm going to print it off to SpruceRI and keep it with my documents in the lorry!! Thank you!


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## sport horse (9 March 2012)

Zaminda you are right except that VOSA and Inland Revenue do not sing from the same Hymn Book

It is quite possible that VOSA would declare someone to be 'in business' and require operator's licence etc and that at the same time the Inland Revenue would declare that the very same 'business' has 'no potential for making a profit' and is therefore invalid.  Believe you me I would be one of the one's that would benefit greatly if the Revenue would allow my equestrian activities to be classed as a business - not only for Income Tax but also Inheritance Tax purposes. 

How I would love to be able to deduct all my equestrian expenses from my other income!! I reckon I could make it that the Revenue owed me money and how good would that be!

DREAM ON.......!


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## indie999 (9 March 2012)

I supposed despite the fact the ladies horsebox was empty doesnt really mean a lot re personal gain as she could of been transporting horses deposited them off. In the ancient past I have used private people to ferry horses for me when I have purchased them and paid for the private service. Pre passport era.

She probably got more riled etc and sounds like she got the standard letter saying that she didnt need the info she  thought she needed! Probably just more irritated at being stopped.

Once they stop you they have to treat everyone the same, not decide if they like you etc. The amount of porkies I have heard from horse folks not suprised they go through their drill!


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