# To clip or not?



## TheresaW (15 October 2017)

Not sure if this should be in here or somewhere else, but think its best suited to here.

Mac is very thin. He has had a full Mot, and basically, his bloods show a healthy horse. His main problem is his teeth, they are very worn, and the vet told me his teeth make him appear 10 years older than Dolly who is 24. He is 20.  He is fed twice a day with conditioning mash, copra, and some chaff, and vet has recommended adding vegetable oil as well if he will eat it.  He also had lice, which have had one treatment, 2nd treatment due tomorrow.

He is very very hairy now, and my plan was to leave him unclipped and naked, light rug should we get a lot of rain. They live out 24/7.  Over the last week, a few bald patches have appeared all over him, and giving him a good look today, he has quite a few sores on his skin.  I know the lice would have made him itchy, plus hes always been a mild sweet itch sufferer. We are still having mild days interspersed with it getting colder, and hes always been quite a sweaty horse.

So, should I clip him, give his skin some time to breathe and heal, or leave him be?  I have a selection of rugs from lightweight to very heavy should we have a very cold winter.  At the moment, I am very concerned about him making it through winter.

Would also add, I still have a lot of grass, plus am putting hay out as well.


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## claret09 (15 October 2017)

my gut instinct is to give him at least one or two really good baths and then see what his skin is like . being thin I would want to keep him warm but I don't know him so can't tell you for sure. I am assuming he has been checked for cushings. why are his teeth so poor?


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## Equi (16 October 2017)

With it being so mild, they have all shed later. My horses are shedding crazy right now. honestly, i would not clip a very skinny horse..

A horse at my yard is 30 and has poor teeth so he gets grass all day but at night his feed regime is literally about 2 hours long...grass pellets, beet, mashed this and that, oils, pure fat soemtimes...idk.... a lot of work anyway. Hes 30...stilll a good weight for his age and still ridden..but he gets fed SO so much just to keep that. He is in at night and has been for a while now, if he was out i doubt they could feed him enough to keep the weight. He sucks the grass more than he can eat it, and cant eat haylage or hay..but he is 10y older than this horse. But this hors sounds like he may be older than 20? Mines 18 and nowhere near this bad?


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## Northern Hare (16 October 2017)

Just a thought but have you had your horse tested for cushings?  It might be worth it if you're struggling to keep weight on him, plus skin problems are any side effect of Cushings - and obviously the long coat.  You may find that the test is free at the moment - you only pay for the visit fee.

My horse is 25 TBxWB and he's had cushings for about five years now and it is kept under control with Prascend (1.25 tabs/day).  With cushings the horses find it more difficult to regulate their body temp, so can easily overheat in even light rugs.  My horse did this a couple of years ago with the result that he ended up with Rainscald where he'd had some insect bites during the summer so his skin had become compromised.  In the end I found it much easier just to clip him out, which allowed me to treat his rainscald/rugrash over his quarters.

I now fully clip him out during the winter - he is in light to med work. It's easier to keep his skin really clean and I use a hot towel to clean him down after he's been ridden which I find helps to keep any skin problems at bay.


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## TheresaW (16 October 2017)

Hes been tested twice for cushings. Around this time last year, and again a couple of weeks ago.

No real idea why his teeth are so worn. It is more than possible that he is older than 20 I guess?  I have had him for 12 years, and his passport says he was born 97, but who knows.

I think Ill try a couple of good baths first weather permitting.

Hes been retired for 3 years due to bad arthritis. He seizes up quite badly when stabled, hence being out 24/7.


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## Mrs G (17 October 2017)

Slightly off topic but vegetable oil isnt the best oil to use, esp if your horse has arthritis; vegetable oils are high in omega-6 fatty acids, which in high levels can convert to pro-inflammatory substances in the body.  You could try using linseed oil or micronised linseed, it will help with his weight but is also good for the skin.


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## Auslander (17 October 2017)

Mrs G said:



			Slightly off topic but vegetable oil isnt the best oil to use, esp if your horse has arthritis; vegetable oils are high in omega-6 fatty acids, which in high levels can convert to pro-inflammatory substances in the body.  You could try using linseed oil or micronised linseed, it will help with his weight but is also good for the skin.
		
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Too right!
There's a good article here about the different types of oil we can use https://www.facebook.com/DrDavidMarlin/posts/703523413185216


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## claret09 (17 October 2017)

I am fortunate that my 20 year old looks amazing and is very sound, he has linseed in every feed. that would definitely help with your boy's coat and joints


Mrs G said:



			Slightly off topic but vegetable oil isnt the best oil to use, esp if your horse has arthritis; vegetable oils are high in omega-6 fatty acids, which in high levels can convert to pro-inflammatory substances in the body.  You could try using linseed oil or micronised linseed, it will help with his weight but is also good for the skin.
		
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## Sussexbythesea (18 October 2017)

Both my friends horses who I often look after are hairy veterans of 34 - Shetland treated for cushings and 22 year old cob type. Both get really sweaty and really only clipping helps them. They mostly get just a bib and belly. The weather is so mild a lot of the time that they can't wear a rug to keep the rain off and they never dry out properly. The 34 yr old gets cold if he gets too wet but equally a rug can make him sweat badly. 

If it were me I think I'd clip and rug accordingly to the weather.


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## TheresaW (20 October 2017)

Thanks for all the replies. Tonight is the first time Ive seen him in daylight since last weekend. He definitely doesnt look any worse, but does need a good groom
He still seems to eat the grass and Hay ok, all the poos look the the same. 

I took these pics tonight.

























Dolly is 24, and although lighter than she used to be, she is still a good weight, sound and still ridden. 

ETA.  I havent started him on the oil yet, so will rethink that one.


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## Tiddlypom (20 October 2017)

Bless him, he is skinny, isn't he, he looks a lot older than 20.  Can you get more food into him, I got up to 5 feeds of soaked D&H 16+ cubes per day into my nearly toothless 40+ yo pony, spaced at min 3 hourly intervals. (That was a few years ago, there are probably better feed options now.) It bought him a couple of good extra years.

ETA You say he has bad arthritis. Are his pain levels controlled? If he's in permanent discomfort, then that could explain his weight loss.


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## TheresaW (20 October 2017)

Im not sure I could get much more in him during the week. Im there at 5.30 in the morning to feed him, then home and ready for work. I go up straight from work, and get there about 6.45pm. 

I can make his feeds bigger, but I know little and often would be better.

He seems fine in himself. Still boss of the other 2, moves freely. Farrier has commented last few trims how he lifts his legs better.


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## TheresaW (20 October 2017)

Auslander said:



			Too right!
There's a good article here about the different types of oil we can use https://www.facebook.com/DrDavidMarlin/posts/703523413185216

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Just had a read of the article. Linseed it is.


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## TheresaW (30 October 2017)

Hi again.

Sorry to keep harking on, and I know I must seem a bit clueless, but dealing with a skinny horse is a first for me.

Mac is looking a little better.  I thought he was, and OH came and saw him yesterday for the first time in a week and said he looks better.  He is still very thin, but hopefully heading in the right direction.  His coat has improved a lot, the sores are healing, and the lice are gone.  At the moment, he feels warm around his ears, under his tail etc.

This morning we had our first frost, so now I am thinking of when winter properly sets in.  As Ive said, I have plenty of rugs, but have only ever rugged a clipped horse.  He has a good winter growth on him, so should he start to feel or look cold, would I rug him unclipped?  I have this thing in my head that you wouldnt because of them lifting the hairs etc.  Not even sure that makes any sense.


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## GirlFriday (30 October 2017)

Whilst he is warm, and if the sores are healing/have healed well in the air, I'd leave unrugged for as long as possible to avoid them getting rubbed/infected/generally yucky. Did you discover if it was rainscald/? But if he gets cold I'd have trouble leaving a horse that light out unrugged - do you have a couple of different weights so he can basically be in them daily (but weather appropriate ones) until spring?

To be honest I'd be wanting vet/dentist assistance though as he doesn't look good for the time of year and fact that he is obviously cared for well.


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## Alibear (30 October 2017)

Hi, I think as ever it depends on the horse and the fields they're in. My Mac who is 26 this year is not clipped but we do rug in the really cold weather. We won't rug him until temperatures drop below 5 degrees, then we jump straight to an old MW and he has a heavy weight but that only goes on if it snows or he's struggling, neither of which have happened in the last couple of years.  Also we don't groom him, the oils in their coat help them stay warm and dry  The do have access to a field shelter now.


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## TheresaW (30 October 2017)

Thank you.

GirlFriday, he has been throughly checked over by the vet, loads of bloods run etc, and all came back showing a healthy horse.  She said his teeth are basically knackered, so have been playing around with feeds finding something which suits him.  He has always been an itchy horse, and obviously getting the lice really didnt help.

Thanks Alibear.  He isnt groomed regularly, obviously I check him over everyday, brush off a bit of mud with my hands etc.

I have no fill rainsheets, LW, MW and HW, so can definitely play around with them.  We are also going to be moving in a couple of weeks to a much more sheltered field, with older more established grass, so hoping that will help him too.


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## Fiona (30 October 2017)

A slightly different situation, but last winter we had an elderly loan pony in her 20's with completely knackered teeth.....  As she couldn't eat hay, she lived out 24/7 with three relatively large feeds of fast fibre, grass chaff and grass nuts all soaked to a mush.  She lived in an adjoining field to the others though, so she could take as long as she wanted to eat....

She was being ridden by my 6yo, so had a bib and belly clip and managed fine with a lightweight rain sheet and a 100g rug, but we had heavier rugs for her and I wouldn't have hesitated to put them on if necessary.

FIona


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## TheresaW (30 October 2017)

Thank you. Mac still seems to eat the hay and grass etc, and gets 2 mashy feeds a day.  No-one touches his feed, so I dont have to worry about that bit of it at least.

Now his skin has settled, I dont want to clip him really, just want to be sure hes warm enough.


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## Alibear (30 October 2017)

TheresaW said:



			Thank you.

GirlFriday, he has been throughly checked over by the vet, loads of bloods run etc, and all came back showing a healthy horse.  She said his teeth are basically knackered, so have been playing around with feeds finding something which suits him.  He has always been an itchy horse, and obviously getting the lice really didn&#8217;t help.

Thanks Alibear.  He isn&#8217;t groomed regularly, obviously I check him over everyday, brush off a bit of mud with my hands etc.

I have no fill rainsheets, LW, MW and HW, so can definitely play around with them.  We are also going to be moving in a couple of weeks to a much more sheltered field, with older more established grass, so hoping that will help him too.
		
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Sounds like you've got it sorted and he's already bouncing back nicely. The oldies do go through their ups and downs but I figure as long as over all they're happy and content, it's nothing to worry about. We've had the "if he doesn't come right in  x time"  discussion twice for Mac now which has had the so far he's always bounced back  Hope your Mac does the same.


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## TheresaW (30 October 2017)

Thank you x


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## LaurenBay (30 October 2017)

nothing to add, just didn't want to read and run. Hope Mac is back on form soon x


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## TheresaW (30 October 2017)

Thank you x


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## ester (30 October 2017)

I'd definitely add the micronised linseed instead of vet oil, good he is eating the copra though . 

I would predict he isn't going to stay that warm so I do think if you can manage his coat as is (its a trial with Frank too!) the more it can stay on the better and that you will probably need to rug him on top of that.


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## Pinkvboots (30 October 2017)

I don't think I would clip perhaps a 100g rug on at night would be enough for him then on dry warmish days it could come off for the day, they are not really heavy so hopefully won't cause him skin troubles. agree about the linseed it's the best oil to feed for weight.


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## TheresaW (30 October 2017)

Thank you all. He felt warm tonight, was munching his haylage when I left. Have a LW in the car ready to put on when needed. I will take a couple of pics next weekend as it will be the next time I see him in daylight and will post them if nobody minds. See if any of you can see an improvement. X


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## claret09 (30 October 2017)

i personally would put rugs on. as i have said my boy is 20 and looks amazing . he is also rugged up to the nines and doesn't get cold. he is therefore not loosing condition trying to keep warm.


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## FfionWinnie (31 October 2017)

Definitely wouldnt clip him. I would weigh tape him feed him extra/ good Haylage, rugs and also natural vitamin e and decide on a time scale for seeing some improvement before having to think long and hard about putting him through the winter when hes going into it like that. Good luck.


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## Tiddlypom (31 October 2017)

Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but has he had worms counts done?


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## southerncomfort (31 October 2017)

Hi,

My old lady has a LW on at night now, not so much because she needs it to keep her warm, but because at this time of year the air is very damp early in the morning and I know it can make her feel a bit stiff and sore.  She was starting to look a little tucked up in the morning even though she felt warm enough.

Also, would it be possible to pay someone to give him an extra feed at lunchtime?  Our old pony needed at least 3 feeds a day during her last year.

Sounds like your fella is already improving which is great.   Caring for oldies is rewarding but also extremely worrying at times!


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## ILuvCowparsely (31 October 2017)

TheresaW said:



			Not sure if this should be in here or somewhere else, but think it&#8217;s best suited to here.

Mac is very thin. He has had a full Mot, and basically, his bloods show a healthy horse. His main problem is his teeth, they are very worn, and the vet told me his teeth make him appear 10 years older than Dolly who is 24. He is 20.  He is fed twice a day with conditioning mash, copra, and some chaff, and vet has recommended adding vegetable oil as well if he will eat it.  He also had lice, which have had one treatment, 2nd treatment due tomorrow.

He is very very hairy now, and my plan was to leave him unclipped and naked, light rug should we get a lot of rain. They live out 24/7.  Over the last week, a few bald patches have appeared all over him, and giving him a good look today, he has quite a few sores on his skin.  I know the lice would have made him itchy, plus he&#8217;s always been a mild sweet itch sufferer. We are still having mild days interspersed with it getting colder, and he&#8217;s always been quite a sweaty horse.

So, should I clip him, give his skin some time to breathe and heal, or leave him be?  I have a selection of rugs from lightweight to very heavy should we have a very cold winter.  At the moment, I am very concerned about him making it through winter.

Would also add, I still have a lot of grass, plus am putting hay out as well.
		
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My mare get's really wet and sweaty in her jump training  class with the trainer who works her hard, she is wet all over after well 80% of her but that is the only time she really swets like this, so at the moment we are not clipping as it doesn't seem justified for the one day a week. 

 I have yet to clip her since I got her in 2015


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## TheresaW (31 October 2017)

Thanks everyone.  Am going to ask someone about giving him a 3rd feed during the day.  I dont want to clip him if at all possible, and at the moment his coat and skin are looking heaps better, so will just put a rain sheet or lw on if needed.  I am worried about him being too hot as well, as that wont help his gain weight either I wouldnt have thought?

FfionWinnie, I have already spoken to my OH about what is fair to him.  Ive said if I dont see any real improvement by the end of November, I will make a decision.  Its made harder because he is very happy in himself.


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## FfionWinnie (31 October 2017)

Fingers crossed he picks up. Lot of stress on you too.


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## GirlFriday (31 October 2017)

TheresaW said:



			he is very happy in himself.
		
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This is the most important thing.

At the end of the day many elderly people I see in the street don't look particularly healthy/well covered - but there are definitely many who have a good quality of life and are happy. (Edited to add - I have a little dog who appeals a lot to children and old people so I chat to some of them very regularly now!)


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## Northern Hare (31 October 2017)

From experience with my 25yo Cushings TBxWB, when he really dropped off when first given his Prascend.  It was amazing how much weight/condition he lost in such a short space of time - it was really alarming.

Apart from finding him a feed that he would actually eat and that wasn't too high in sugar (Topspec Comprehensive Balancer and Topspec Cool Condition Cubes), I think the thing that made most difference to him regaining his condition was upping the number of feeds per day - we went up to four per day for a few weeks.  My personal theory is that when their teeth aren't as good as they should be, we then feed soaked feed, but they can end up as big/heavy feeds which doesn't aid digestion.  So, breaking the feeds down into smaller feeds makes it easier for the horse to make best use of the nutritional value of the feeds.

Ref rugging, my horse finds it hard to regulate his body temp.  He is stabled overnight, but I find that he's prone to rugrash/rainscald if he gets too hot under his rugs which is a pain to get rid of (I use Nizoral anti fungal shampoo from Tescos which clears it quickly).  

It's a bit of a nightmare tbh, so you do have my sympathy as it's a really hard balance to achieve.  I am going to fully clip him out again in the next few days and then he'll have a 40g or 100g rug on depending on the weather - I use Premier Equine turnouts with their thin 100g liners.  I'm not a huge fan of using no-fill rugs as apart from keeping the wind / rain / mud off them they don't offer any insulation, so I do try and put a thin rug on once the weather turns in the autumn - even if it's the 40g.

I went to a fascinating lecture by Prof knottenbelt who is the equine specialist - primarily in sarcoids, but any other skin conditions.  His biggest criticism is that we over-rug horses so they get too hot which results in all sorts of undesirable skin conditions.  He recommended cutting down rug weights as far as possible, but to always have a cotton liner or sheet between the horses skin and the rug.  Tbh, I've tried putting a cotton summer sheet under his turnout rug but find that they slip back and rub the wither / shoulder.  I'd be very grateful if there are any recommendations on ways to get around this but still having cotton next to the skin?


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## claret09 (31 October 2017)

agree


GirlFriday said:



			This is the most important thing.

At the end of the day many elderly people I see in the street don't look particularly healthy/well covered - but there are definitely many who have a good quality of life and are happy. (Edited to add - I have a little dog who appeals a lot to children and old people so I chat to some of them very regularly now!)
		
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## TheresaW (5 November 2017)

I took these today, can anyone see any improvement, even if its a small one?


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## Clodagh (5 November 2017)

He looks much better. He is really tucked up with what I would call an empty hind gut in the first lot, he looks like he has something in his tummy now.


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## TheresaW (5 November 2017)

Thank you.  You know how Ive always struggled to keep the weight off him!

Because I see him every day, even though 5 days a week its now dark, Im not sure if I see an improvement or just wishful thinking.


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## ester (5 November 2017)

I agree he looks more comfortable and less tucked.


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## TheresaW (5 November 2017)

Thank you. Will keep doing what Im doing.

Original pics were taken on 20th October, so only a couple of weeks.


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## claret09 (5 November 2017)

yes. he looks loads better



TheresaW said:



			I took these today, can anyone see any improvement, even if its a small one?












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## TheresaW (5 November 2017)

Thank you x


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