# Scum on the rampage



## perfect11s (10 November 2010)

Why  do  this  lot  think  they are intitled to further  education??? just  turned on the news  to  a  load of cretins  wrecking  central  london ..... far  to many are  going  to uni and its about  time only the brightest got in  and the rest learnt a usefull trade instead........


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## Doncella (10 November 2010)

perfect11s said:



			Why  do  this  lot  think  they are intitled to further  education??? just  turned on the news  to  a  load of cretins  wrecking  central  london ..... far  to many are  going  to uni and its about  time only for the brightest got in  and the rest learnt a usefull trade instead........
		
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Have to agree.  I live in a small university town and I have to say the intake get thicker, more arrogant and selfish every year.


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## Tinkerbee (10 November 2010)

I'd be raising the fees even higher, they clearly still have enough money to get to London...


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## Spudlet (10 November 2010)

perfect11s said:



			Why  do  this  lot  think  they are intitled to further  education??? just  turned on the news  to  a  load of cretins  wrecking  central  london ..... far  to many are  going  to uni and its about  time only the brightest got in  and the rest learnt a usefull trade instead........
		
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Entitled.

Too many.

It's about time.

Useful.

Seems to me it's a minority that are rioting - the majority protested peacefully (both students and lecturers present), which they are well within their rights to do.


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## JessPickle (10 November 2010)

I really don't see how you can judge everyone at university due to a few idiot students deciding to be utter prats!


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## Saucisson (10 November 2010)

What is a "useful" degree?

If that is the only criteria we can kick out Philosophy, Astro-physics, quantum-physics, Politics, English Lit., Egyptology, etc etc

I think University is there to further our academic knowledge not to learn how to prepare invoices.  

Should we only study Law, Engineering and Medicine?


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## perfect11s (10 November 2010)

JessPickle said:



			I really don't see how you can judge everyone at university due to a few idiot students deciding to be utter prats!
		
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 I'm not, just questioning how many go and how many do something  usefull with their degrees or how usefull some of the bits of paper are in the real world  judging by the number of graduates unable to find work,and if they are so good and educated why  the squeeling coming from people like  the CBI and others about caps on numbers of skilled migrants  and not being able to find people with the right qualifcations or fit to fill positions in all sorts of jobs   ????


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## xloopylozzax (10 November 2010)

perfect11s said:



			I'm not, just questioning how many go and how many do something  usefull with their degrees or how usefull some of the bits of paper are in the real world  judging by the number of graduates unable to find work,and if they are so good and educated why  the squeeling coming from people like  the CBI and others about caps on numbers of skilled migrants  and not being able to find people with the right qualifcations or fit to fill positions in all sorts of jobs   ????
		
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what?


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## Doris68 (10 November 2010)

Ah yes, the useful degrees such as, Underwater Basket Weaving and Pipe Bending!
What happened to the "real" degrees, as mentioned above...Engineering, Law, Medicine, Economics??

Recun its medja studees an tatoooin an not mingin stuff like lernin ter reed an rite innit.

Apologies to anyone who is literate and is doing Media Studies...............


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## Spudlet (10 November 2010)

Useful only has one 'l'!

My God, but Voltaire was wrong.... he my have said 'I disagree strongly with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it', but what he should have said was 'I disagree strongly with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it, _provided you spell it correctly_'.

Dorsi68, please post the UCAS codes for the BSc course in Underwater Basket Weaving... I'd like to look at the syllabus.

How limited we would be if everyone studied and enjoyed the same things.


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## perfect11s (10 November 2010)

xloopylozzax said:



			what?
		
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 yes exactly!!!!


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## Doris68 (10 November 2010)

Sadly, the Underwater Basket Weaving course is over-subscribed.

"Studied" is the key word.....


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## xloopylozzax (10 November 2010)

FWIW, I had planned to go to the protest but I couldn't because I would miss lessons at college, lose my EMA and also a shift at work.

Why am I bothered? Because my future is in jeapordy; there are loads of reasons, "mickey mouse" degrees, unis taking on too many students which they can't cope with (not enough contact time), uni becoming the norm etc
The fact Scotland gets free degrees riles me aswell! (not to mention prescriptions and god knows what else )

We shouldn't take this lying down, which is why I was going to attend, the lib-dems have sold us out and I expected more from Dave, but there you go, got to look after number 1.

If I could learn on the job I would- the government stopped all that years ago, no trades left, no skilled workers.

I dislike(d) uni because it wasn't "elite" enough (I wanted it to mean something) It's just too late for me now...


Oh and perfect11's- what was intended to be a "what the chuff did you even try to write?" I stopped after the second comma (which should probably have been a fullstop because I ran out of breath even if you didn't) because it just didnt make sense!


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## ecarylloh (10 November 2010)

I always thought it would be a good idea to abolish the bottom 5th or so of universities and plough the saved money back into:
a. subsidising quality universities
b. creating apprenticeship schemes

There are quite a lot of universities where the degrees mean basically nothing to employers, and the students are essentially racing up pointless debt. Not everyone *has* to go to university. If you can't get into a quality university why pay so much money to get a worthless degree when you could be learning on the job?

I think I can see this from both views - I went to a good university and think that the student debt was worth every penny, but if it had gone up any more I wouldn't have been able to go at all. On the other hand, I have a number of friends who've gone through some of the few apprenticeship schemes, are really qualified for their particular skill and are now doing a part time degree at the Open University.


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## kiritiger (10 November 2010)

Tinkerbee said:



			I'd be raising the fees even higher, they clearly still have enough money to get to London...
		
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I didn't go to the protest but our Uni payed for the protest students to go to London. 

Also, I would just like to point out that the rise in fees will not effect those already at university, those planning to start in September 2011, the lecturers or postgraduates. Probably most people at the demo are one of the above.

The violence was totally out of order and gives students a bad name (or should I say worse name?!). I am however, unsurprised that it occurred.


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## noodle_ (10 November 2010)

as a student.... the minority spoilt a good protest today.

i would not be paying 9k for my degree as its not worth it!  Unless they offered more contact time, better quality and quicker marking etc....and turn the degrees into 2 years not 3... we get too many holidays!!!!!!

anyhow... i think uni should be based entirely on grades..... and not because you can afford it....but putting the fees up, only the elite are going to be able to go!


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## kiritiger (10 November 2010)

Yes, the elite and the very poor (government will continue to give them full grants).


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## noodle_ (10 November 2010)

kiritiger said:



			Yes, the elite and the very poor (government will continue to give them full grants).
		
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i know the middle of the road (myself) are normally the loosers in this !.....

like most things!!


e.g tonight.... because we as a family unit are not on benefits (housing or whatever) we had to pay for the council to come out to collect something... if we were on benefits it would be free..

wtf does our council tax go on too???

this country imo is utterly screwed up.... the benefits system needs a good sorting out (i'll happily do it  )

and the PM needs a kick up the behind as they are all bull****ters.... and only out for themselves imo.

proud to be british???? no.


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## kiritiger (10 November 2010)

Totally agree with you noodle_


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## stolensilver (10 November 2010)

University used to be a way that kids learned how to network and become adults because they lived away from home. So even if they did a pointless degree (and let's be honest there are an awful lot of those since Labour randomly decided that 50% of kids should go to Uni) they did at least learn life skills.

Now well over 3/4 of people going to Uni still live at home. So what on earth is the point? Most are doing a dead end degree with no focus to it and no skills that employers value. They finish Uni, can't find a job because they don't have employable skills and have run up a massive amount of debt. 

You can probably tell that I think the Higher Education system needs to be radically cut back. Apprenticeships need to return and Education in general needs to lose the "child centred" madness that it has followed for the past decade or so. All that has done IMHO is teach children that the world revolves around them, that if you don't feel like doing something you don't have to, that if you foul up never mind, have another go. Its not preparing kids for what the real world is like. I've noticed a big difference in work ethic in graduates even in the past 5 years and sadly in a negative direction. 

IMHO the current education system is doing children a massive disservice. The real world is hard and tough and if you aren't good enough it leaves you behind. Kids are coming out of school soft and unprepared for how hard they are going to work. It comes as a big, unpleasant shock to them. 

University has frequently been a 3 year doss in many courses. 4 hours of lectures a week is hardly taxing! We need these pointless courses to be axed, such as the hundreds of places on Forensic courses when there are only a handful of jobs in the whole country in that speciality. The Universities need to start responding to the demands of employers not the demands of students swayed by their current favourite TV programme and there needs to be some accountability from the Universities as to why the graduates they are churning out are often viewed as unemployable.


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## firm (10 November 2010)

It is free in Scotland for the Scottish and every other EU student EXCEPT those from England, Wales & NI???


http://findarticles.com/p/news-arti...u-students-cost-scotland-pounds/ai_n56150782/ 

"RECORD numbers of European students are flocking to Scotland at a cost to taxpayers of more than 20million a year.

New figures show that more than 11,000 received financial help to study in Scotland last year - a near three-fold rise in a decade.

Under SNP reforms, EU students are funded by Scots taxpayers, while English, Welsh and Northern Irish students are forced to pay their own way. EU students who travel to England to study have to pay tuition fees in the same way as domestic students.

In Scotland, the cost of subsidising EU students has soared from 4.1million in 2000 to 20.2million last year"


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## MileAMinute (10 November 2010)

xloopylozzax said:



			FWIW, I had planned to go to the protest but I couldn't because I would miss lessons at college, lose my EMA and also a shift at work.

Why am I bothered? Because my future is in jeapordy; there are loads of reasons, "mickey mouse" degrees, unis taking on too many students which they can't cope with (not enough contact time), uni becoming the norm etc
The fact Scotland gets free degrees riles me aswell! (not to mention prescriptions and god knows what else )

We shouldn't take this lying down, which is why I was going to attend, the lib-dems have sold us out and I expected more from Dave, but there you go, got to look after number 1.

If I could learn on the job I would- the government stopped all that years ago, no trades left, no skilled workers.

I dislike(d) uni because it wasn't "elite" enough (I wanted it to mean something) It's just too late for me now...


Oh and perfect11's- what was intended to be a "what the chuff did you even try to write?" I stopped after the second comma (which should probably have been a fullstop because I ran out of breath even if you didn't) because it just didnt make sense!
		
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Agreed 100%!! I'm planning to go to University next year, but am worried to death about these additional charges they want to put on. Coming from a single parent family, am not blessed with money and will really struggle.

I don't agree with the rioting though - the protest I could live with, after all you don't get anything done in life sitting quietly and agreeing with everyone, but rioting just makes all Uni goers seem immature and prone to tantrums!

Also, FWIW, I'm doing a 'Useful' degree - Nursing. Something I'd rather NOT go to Uni for but have no choice. There's not even an option for me to do a cheaper course in the Diploma, as they are now being stopped at all (?) unis due to overpopulation (all the ones i applied for, anyway!)


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## Maesfen (10 November 2010)

I think those caught doing the damage especially that prat jumping up and down, should be barred from university completely.  Anyone causing the trouble today should be barred too.  I say nothing about peaceful protest but that was just taking the piss, totally uncalled for and they shouldn't be rewarded with places at university for it.
Agree with every word from Stolensilver.


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## Nepenthe (11 November 2010)

Education isn't all about preparation for work; it is about improving the mind, and opening horizons.
And the knowledge/experience of many of the whingers on this thread is evident from the fact they don't seem to know the difference between Further and Higher Education.
N


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## Doncella (11 November 2010)

kiritiger said:



			I didn't go to the protest but our Uni payed for the protest students to go to London. 

Re my previous post.  This is the town in which I live.  If these students are so poor why are they out in the pubs every night?
Last weekI overheard a student almost crying into his mobile because his mother wouldn't decide on which essay he wanted her to write for him.
Lets just say I don't live in Oxford or Cambridge.
Also I have a degree which I gained as a mature student from a good university with my savings and my OH worked and did his engineering degree one day a week driving a 200 mile round trip every Wednesday.
		
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## lillith (11 November 2010)

So students upset that not only are fees being raised but budgets being cut as well so people are paying more for less are scum? People sitting there saying it is justified who did not pay for their degrees at all? 

I have just finished uni and am in 20 grands worth of debt and I worked through uni, those who are starting over the next couple of years will be in up to 30 grand of debt. My dad finished uni with 3 grand of debt and didn't work while he was there. 

Oh and if you want people who 'should't be at uni' because you think they aren't bright enough not to go then implement entrance exams to reduce the numbers. Unless of course you are of the opinion anyone who doesn't have 30 grand to spare is 'scum' and not worthy of higher education.


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## annaellie (11 November 2010)

Also, FWIW, I'm doing a 'Useful' degree - Nursing. Something I'd rather NOT go to Uni for but have no choice. There's not even an option for me to do a cheaper course in the Diploma, as they are now being stopped at all (?) unis due to overpopulation (all the ones i applied for, anyway!)[/QUOTE]

This is exactly the same for me I have been a NA for years on mental health. I do the excact same job as a qualified nurse bar medication. I know all about them side effects, dosages etc. I even have some of newer qualified nurses asking me for advice. Though for me to practice as a nurse I have to do a degree for 3 years, struggle money wise for what to learn what I already know and do. As said above the diplomas are being faded away last intake is jan2011 for diploma. 
I would much prefer to do a on the job qualification, and be passed off that way.


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## posie_honey (11 November 2010)

xloopylozzax said:



			The fact Scotland gets free degrees riles me aswell! (not to mention prescriptions and god knows what else )
		
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i must be missing something = i don't get free prescriptions?!


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## mrussell (11 November 2010)

I was initially shocked at the title but then realised you are (hopefully) only referring to the idiots who were hell bent on causing carnage and chaos.  Perhaps they should have been arrested and put on Jeremy Kyle ?  No doubt they thought getting onto TV qualified them for a Masters in Media Studies !

I feel for Nick Clegg as TBH he had NO IDEA what he was getting into when he strode into semi-power all those months ago.  Little did he know the complete feck up that the outgoing Governmant had left the country to deal with.  What he did was akin to promising his kids the latest Tamagotchi then realising on Christmas Eve that the shops have sold out.  

No one LIKES whats happening but we are all in this together.  I wont be getting a pay rise again this year but I'm not off to smash up someone elses possessions to make up for it.

Maybe its because I'm old and never went to Uni...


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## kiritiger (11 November 2010)

Doncella said:





kiritiger said:



			I didn't go to the protest but our Uni payed for the protest students to go to London. 

Re my previous post.  This is the town in which I live.  If these students are so poor why are they out in the pubs every night?
Last weekI overheard a student almost crying into his mobile because his mother wouldn't decide on which essay he wanted her to write for him.
Lets just say I don't live in Oxford or Cambridge.
Also I have a degree which I gained as a mature student from a good university with my savings and my OH worked and did his engineering degree one day a week driving a 200 mile round trip every Wednesday.
		
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I'm not saying this is ok, I totally agree with you. Why the hell should the taxpayer fund three years of drinking and why should the locals have to put up with it. I am at uni to learn, that is what I am paying for, not to go out drinking every night and then missing lectures because I am hungover. I think for some people at university, they are there because they are simply trying to escape the responsibility of getting a job and living in the real world. I am not saying this is everyone, there also those who don't waste their money and/or have part-time work and are paying to go to uni because they want to further their education. Re the out in pubs every night - this is a very good point, I have no idea where they get their money from, if I can't afford it, I don't go, simples.
		
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## Scheherezade (11 November 2010)

Raising tuition fees doesn NOT mean you will have more people doing 'useful' degrees - the very opposite in fact.

People from poorer backgrounds cannot afford to study veterinary medicine, biomedicine, law or engineering. So you just end up with people who are very well off and can afford university STILL going there to study what you call 'useless' degrees. I knew just as many people who came from boarding schools who studied sociology, anthropology, media and english as people who couldn't fford a rise in tuition fees.

The degree choice quality is unaffected - just the amount of people who are going. So by default there are LESS doctors and vets, and FEWER engineers and barristers, etc.


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## Hels_Bells (11 November 2010)

I agree, that these idiot people were absolutely out of line using violence and trashing things and it just shows that completely ignorant thickos are now allowed into the university system if they can pay for it, rather than if they're intelligent enough! Ridiculous!

I am a student at present (though a pretty old one) and firmly believe that we should return to the old system where only the brightest and best are able to attend university FOR FREE on the basis of their exam results from GCSE/A Level NOT how much they are able to pay. 

The amount of people attending university these days is ridiculous and should be reduced radically, those qualifying should be allowed in on proven academic results alone.  

The previous government allowed more and more people into university to try and convince everyone that unemployment was at it's lowest ever... the bubble had to burst sooner or later, so let's wipe the slate clean and do things correctly from here on in.  Not worsen the problem by making the stupid and intelligent both shell out more!


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## Caz89 (11 November 2010)

The problem these days is that most youngsters just don't want to work so they think by going to university it means they can just bum about partying! The majority of people who come out of uni end up in a job with no relevance to what they studied in university anyway. I think entrance levels should be reviewed and only let those in who genuinly want to be there for educational purposes


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## Caz89 (11 November 2010)

^^^^
That's coming from a 20 year old aswell so I know how most of them think lol


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## MooMoo (11 November 2010)

perfect11s said:



			Why  do  this  lot  think  they are intitled to further  education??? just  turned on the news  to  a  load of cretins  wrecking  central  london ..... far  to many are  going  to uni and its about  time only the brightest got in  and the rest learnt a usefull trade instead........
		
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That load of cretins do not represent students. The NUS have condemned the violence, and I think you'll find that a lot students are angry that these idiots used their march as an excuse to come out and cause trouble for the sake of it. I highly doubt a lot of them were even students. The term "rent-a-mob" springs to mind.

So perhaps you could try NOT tarring all of "that lot" with the same brush, because there were thousands there who went to protest peacefully and show their support for the NUS, their voice.

And as for the "learning a useful trade", guess what? That will cost the taxpayer too and even after doing the relevant course, jobs aren't exactly certain then.


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## MooMoo (11 November 2010)

Caz89 said:



			^^^^
That's coming from a 20 year old aswell so I know how most of them think lol 

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I'm a first year (19yo) and I agree too. My flatmates go out even if they have stuff on the next day and often miss things. 

I'm a good girl though, head firmly in the books.


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## kiritiger (11 November 2010)

Thank god there seem to be some sane people out there


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## kiritiger (11 November 2010)

MooMoo120791 said:



			I'm a first year (19yo) and I agree too. My flatmates go out even if they have stuff on the next day and often miss things. 

I'm a good girl though, head firmly in the books. 

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^^^^^
This!!


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## MileAMinute (11 November 2010)

Caz89 said:



			The problem these days is that most youngsters just don't want to work so they think by going to university it means they can just bum about partying! The majority of people who come out of uni end up in a job with no relevance to what they studied in university anyway. I think entrance levels should be reviewed and only let those in who genuinly want to be there for educational purposes
		
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It's a shame that most of us get tarred with this brush too, I know my mother's partner says all Uni goers are slobs etc etc, which is certainly not the case with me or most people I know.

The thing that riles me are the people that only have lectures for 16hrs a week and stay in bed/go drinking for the rest of the time - when I start my week is going to be at least 40hrs + all the rotations (Nursing degree).


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## tinuviel (11 November 2010)

xloopylozzax said:



			The fact Scotland gets free degrees riles me aswell! (not to mention prescriptions and god knows what else )

What Scotland is this!? Lived here all my life and always had to pay for my prescriptions. Would love them to be free but thats not likely any time soon. Any freebies we are getting (think its only the over 60s that get any!) I doubt will be free for much longer. The Scottish Govt are reviewing the funding of degrees and though they keep banging on about finding a Scottish solution to the problem I'd imagine they will have ask students to start paying something. 

I study with the Open Uni and so I pay for my tuition fees as I go, its not cheap but manageable and more and more young folk who would normally go to a brick Uni are now turning to the Open Uni as they can work and study so gain work experience plus the knowledge at the same time, I love it and would encourage anyone considering getting a degree to have a look at the Open Uni. 

I am disgusted with the actions of the small minority who caused that trouble, there is no need for that behaviour and hope Edinburgh doesn't get a repeat of it when the Scottish Govt finally concedes defeat and asks students to start paying here. By sheer numbers of students who attended I think the message was delivered without the need for violence. 

I agree that degrees nowadays aren't worth as much as they used to unless you get them from a very good and well respected uni. If a degree is required for a particular industry then its not useless but certainly there seems to be a lot of fluffy subjects out there that don't seem to deserve help with funding as make little contribution to society.
		
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## proudwilliam (11 November 2010)

I wonder whether the protestors were University students or just rent a mob. I would be interested to see those who were arrested actually were at university or not.
If they were then they should be expelled  if convicted.
Should the country pay towards educating younsters who cannot make meaniful protest without breaking the law.


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## MooMoo (11 November 2010)

proudwilliam said:



			I wonder whether the protestors were University students or just rent a mob.
		
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The socialist workers were there. Interestingly the NUS had boards saying something like "no to cuts" and the socialist worker ones said "f ** k fees". Bit of a distinction in attitude there.


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## Kokopelli (11 November 2010)

Its really really annoyed me how all students have been tarred with the same brush!
And whoever said raise the fees higher!!!! Do you want to pay for my uni fees then?

I'm going to do a useful degree as in teaching and as it is its so competitive to get into I've had to stay on an extra year at college to get enough UCAS points.

As for the stupid degrees, I think they come about because of the stupid A levels you can take like archealogy? Really when is dinosaurs going to be useful unless this is your chosen proffesion!


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## Sussexbythesea (11 November 2010)

I'm 40 and was lucky enough to be the last year that got any sort of grant and was in the first year when student loans were introduced. I couldn't do my job properly without my degree (Geology and MSc Environment) not only because of the actual factual side to it but because it taught me to research, analyse and question. It also meant that I met people from all over the country and the world from all kinds of background. I was very shy and had no confidence when I went to University and it has enriched my life far beyond academic qualifications. 

Education benefits all of society not just those that actually received it. The majority of young people I know are hard-working decent people who deserve a good education regardless of their parents wealth, they are our future doctors, engineers, scientists, historians, leaders and problem solvers. It's really sad that so many can't see that. 

The opinions of small-minded people with big chips on their shoulders disturbs me much more on the whole than the very few people who decided to kick-off yesterday. 

We are NOT in it together - this phrase makes want to vomit - David Cameron and his cohorts are very rich indeed and they have no concept of what it is like to have little or nothing. Living through the Thatcher years was hell for anyone on a low-income and it seems like the Cameron years will be a repeat.


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## perfect11s (12 November 2010)

sussexbythesea said:



			I'm 40 and was lucky enough to be the last year that got any sort of grant and was in the first year when student loans were introduced. I couldn't do my job properly without my degree (Geology and MSc Environment) not only because of the actual factual side to it but because it taught me to research, analyse and question. It also meant that I met people from all over the country and the world from all kinds of background. I was very shy and had no confidence when I went to University and it has enriched my life far beyond academic qualifications. 

Education benefits all of society not just those that actually received it. The majority of young people I know are hard-working decent people who deserve a good education regardless of their parents wealth, they are our future doctors, engineers, scientists, historians, leaders and problem solvers. It's really sad that so many can't see that. 

The opinions of small-minded people with big chips on their shoulders disturbs me much more on the whole than the very few people who decided to kick-off yesterday. 

We are NOT in it together - this phrase makes want to vomit - David Cameron and his cohorts are very rich indeed and they have no concept of what it is like to have little or nothing. Living through the Thatcher years was hell for anyone on a low-income and it seems like the Cameron years will be a repeat.
		
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 Im pleased for you, that you had a good education.  Sadly the people with big chips on shoulders  are more about inverted snobbery and  believing you're a victim and all this pathetic leftwing tosh about thatcher. What about all the people who bettered themselves got  to own a house  started a  bussiness because the tories made it possible,  the left want you to feel dependent on the  state,hate self reliance and loath anyone who is a freethinker..... cameron and his cohorts want you me and everyone to better themselves for the good of every member of society ...please dont let the left try to  ruin this great country ever again...


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## sakura (12 November 2010)

agree with sussexbythesea and kokopelli 

besides, it wasn't the vast, vast majority of students who started the problems, hundreds of similar "protests" took place on the same day and weeks before all around the country with no problem, we had one in Truro on the same day as the London one, it was calm and peaceful and they made their valid point well

I'm 18 and chose not to go to uni due to my horse, location and the fee's involved, my sister is in her final year of uni which has been vital for her future career, I support their cause totally - my friends who are at uni in their first year are not all out 'partying' all the time either


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## AndySpooner (12 November 2010)

'We the undersigned wish to congratulate staff and students on the magnificent anti-cuts demonstration this afternoon," said the lecturers. "We wish to condemn and distance ourselves from the from the divisive and, in our view, counterproductive statements issued by NUS and [national] UCU concerning the occupation of the Conservative Party HQ. The real violence in this situation relates not to a smashed window but to the destructive impact of the cuts."

It's like the 1980's all over again.


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## Sirreal (12 November 2010)

Three of my friends were on the march in question: they said it was a very peaceful protest, until the Socialist Workers Party turned up, and it was this bunch of yobs who started the fires, and smashed windows etc, and they had nothing to do with NUS. They apparently dispersed into the crowd and started chants about stopping the cuts in general, not just student finance, which was the original point of the demonstration. 

I agree with the title of the thread: just not with the association of the students on the march. The Socialist Workers Party is entirely at fault.

All the people from our college who attended the demonstration have applied for uni starting September 2011: they will *not* be affected by the cuts, however, they felt it was unfair to first year students applying for 2012 who will be affected. I myself have applied for Veterinary (useful or no?  ) starting September 2011, and won't be affected by the cuts either, however I still think it is unfair to raise the fees when students already come out of uni with thousands of pounds worth of debt.


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## ruggedfamo (12 November 2010)

At the age of 16 you have a choice, to go onto further education if it be 6th form or collage, or if you decide to take the route to work or a training scheme such as an apprentiship. If you chose college and know that you want to go to university what is wrong in starting a fund there and then for 2 years before you go to easen the blow?

Before you ask, there are loads of these appreniships around, we have a few at work and are still recruiting but these cant be fill as young people who they are aimed at (16-19) dont want £95 per week including all travel paid for and NVQ training paid for. The apprienships include HR, Finance, Customer service, Admin, PA work. THey want more money because with some crappy A levels they think they deserve more. They have no experience yet companys are will to pay them to get the experience. 

You also have a choice which university you go to, yes this does depend upon grade achived, thus those who are achieving the better grades are acepted into the better unis. The paper the degree is written on is worth more! 

A university higher in the league table will charge more (in the new fee system) than those lower down. In black and white you would pay more for a designer coat as expecting better and getting more out of it, this should be appiled for unis, the better the uni, expect to pay more. 

People forget there are other ways in getting degrees such as working full time and doing a degree part time. Doing a degree through work, or even working for a few years then going to uni after. 

These students ARE NOT entitled to anything, you have to work in this world and work hard at that for everything you want, this does not mean that everything should be handed to you on a plate. 

Deserving and entitlement is a load of balls. 

I personally think that Engineering, medical, law and other such degrees should be paid for by the gov so that we ensure as a country we have enough of these skills around and be self suffient without relying on forigne personal. 

Dont see it as bad debt see it as an investment. People dont see morgages as bad debt they see it as a home or sometimes as an investment. 

It winds me up. These students needs to get a grip of the real world.


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## Natch (12 November 2010)

These "students" (if thats even who they were) who broke down windows etc weren't the majority - the majority were easily overlooked as they stood peacefully waving placards - let's just remember that.

A degree still means something IMO. The universities can't be blamed for offering something which is in demand, so don't blame them for "mickey mouse degrees." The students who go into any degree without a clear idea of what they want at the end are partly to blame, and so too is the abysmal career support and counselling provided in schools and colleges. In my experience, those students who emerge from university with no experience only have themselves to blame, as it is perfectly possible to study for a degree and work, and there were always plenty of opportunities for part time career-related paid jobs, and always loads of posters around uni and talks emphasising that a degree alone won't land you your perfect graduate job, you need experience too. 

Yes I think we are in danger of losing/ have already lost some of the kudos associated with having a degree. Yes I think they need to be harder to get onto (I could have got into mine on A level grades of BB & D ) - No, I don't think raising tuition fees is going to do anything constructive, only make society more elitist and those who can't afford it are going to be carrying more debt for the rest of their lives.


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## kiritiger (12 November 2010)

I'm with Naturally. There are opportunities out there clearly advertised by universities for placements (paid and unpaid), volunteering, work experience etc. I think students who show initiative and go and seek these opportunities or get careers help will be rewarded by employers.


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## Scheherezade (12 November 2010)

Caz89 said:



			The majority of people who come out of uni end up in a job with no relevance to what they studied in university anyway. I think entrance levels should be reviewed and only let those in who genuinly want to be there for educational purposes
		
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Well, no. A lot of employers seek out students from subjects that aren't directly relevant to the field because of the key skills learnt in it. For example I know a lot of history students were 'headhunted' by law firms over anyone in the law department - the firms actually approach the history dept before law. 

My best friend studied english lit & german and has ended up in a 100K+commision p.a. job in recruitment (actuary). My OH studied english and was chosen over 8000 other grads (mostly business) for his job.

My dept (psychology) was also targeted by MI5 and MI6 - any interested interviewess were contacted via blackboard and invited to stay in Edinburgh for an informal chat. We were studying psychology, not intelligence and communications.

Subject choice doesn't matter - a first from oxbridge in history is worth more than a 3rd from a glorified polytechnic in law and IT.


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## Tinkerbee (12 November 2010)

Kokopelli said:



			Its really really annoyed me how all students have been tarred with the same brush!
And whoever said raise the fees higher!!!! Do you want to pay for my uni fees then?

I'm going to do a useful degree as in teaching and as it is its so competitive to get into I've had to stay on an extra year at college to get enough UCAS points.

As for the stupid degrees, I think they come about because of the stupid A levels you can take like archeology? Really when is dinosaurs going to be useful unless this is your chosen proffesion!
		
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Nope, I'm struggling enough paying my own, with no loans...

A wannabe teacher who can't see the use of archeology? Yeah, definitely not paying your fees.

Also. Paleontology is the study of "dinosaurs" if you like. Archeology is the study of past HUMAN life. 

So, what was your point exactly?


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## the_sophies (12 November 2010)

Kokopelli said:



			Its really really annoyed me how all students have been tarred with the same brush!
And whoever said raise the fees higher!!!! Do you want to pay for my uni fees then?

I'm going to do a useful degree as in teaching and as it is its so competitive to get into I've had to stay on an extra year at college to get enough UCAS points.

As for the stupid degrees, I think they come about because of the stupid A levels you can take like archealogy? Really when is dinosaurs going to be useful unless this is your chosen proffesion!
		
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Do you not see the benefit in having entrance to teaching degrees competitive?  These people are going to be educating future generations of children, not packing bags in Tesco!


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## Quadro (12 November 2010)

To clear up several points 
1. Scotland do NOT have free prescriptions that is in fact WALES
2. Foreign students do have to pay a Scottish unis (my mother is a professor at a top Scottish uni and is VERY actively encouraged to take foreign students as they bring in the ££££)
3. I think the subject is irrelevant tbh i think those  who study a subject they enjoy are more likely to succeed.

I went to Aberyswyth (hell on earth, and also a terrible uni and i do have others to compare with!) and left to years ago, i recieved not a penny in loans grants or anything else. Now i am hoping to study a degree part time  and dont seem to be entilted to a penny mainly due to the fact i work! How is that fair???
My boyfriend got a grant of £500 a year from Powys county council for living in Wales and going to a Welsh university!!! Can only assume funded by the tax payer???
Also Aberystwyth dished out "emergency" loans that did not have o be paid back (up to the value of £1000) to those who had in fact spent all their normal loans ! Several of the recepients i knew bought, holidays, cars, washing machines, shopping sprees and drinking. Can only assume this was funded by my fees???


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## Apercrumbie (12 November 2010)

Can I reiterate the fact that 50,000 students behaved peacefully, about 50 were violent so stop tarring them all with the same brush!

Those who support the fee rises, do you want to pay for those fees?  How can anybody who isn't ridiculously rich afford them?  Somebody suggested to get a job to save up in the two years beforehand but I know many 16yr olds who have no free time because they are so busy with school, horses, homework and other stuff that needs doing.  When I was that age the only free time I had was 40 min each evening when I had finished my homework.  I don't think many of you appreciate how hard many of these kids work.  By the time I was 18 I was looking after my little brother, cleaning the house and looking after the horses and animals.  I then had school six days a week and I worked for four hours every night.  When could I have got a job?

Graduates earn far more (in general) than non-graduates and therefore pay more tax back into the system.  If we got rid of "useless" degrees as some have mentioned, nobody would study languages, english, philosophy, art or any other humanities subjects.  These graduates are often head-hunted by employers for the skills that they learn during their degree.  

If the universities really want to raise their fees, then they can, but only if they drastically improve the service they provide.  The only universities who could justify charging £9000 a year for all subjects are Oxford and Cambridge.  Their students get about triple the contact time in humanities subjects than other universities.  As you all know, it is extremely competitive to get in and therefore they have the right to charge the money.  Another good university such as Manchester gives between 2-4 hours of contact time a week with lecture sizes of 600 for the same subject.  How can they justify that?

Sorry for the rant, but this is something I feel very strongly about.


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## kiritiger (12 November 2010)

What was it you didn't like about Aber Quadro?
Just interested as I am here now (1st year). I am enjoying the course but the attitudes of some people here is just unbelievable (not in a good way  )


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## zefragile (12 November 2010)

Tinkerbee said:



			Nope, I'm struggling enough paying my own, with A wannabe teacher who can't see the use of archeology? Yeah, definitely not paying your fees.
		
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Archaeology "stupid"? Um no.


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## Doris68 (12 November 2010)

The word, Profession has one F and two SS's


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## firm (12 November 2010)

Quadro - Non EU students may have to pay fees in Scotland but EU students do NOT, unless they are from NI, England or Wales.  

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Education/UniversitiesColleges/16640/financial-help


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## qwertyuiop (12 November 2010)

Successive governments have fostered the idea that the only way in to employment is through higher education.

Want to work in TV? Do a media studies course.
Want to be a lawyer? Do a law degree.

The sad fact is that many of these so-called vocational degrees are next to useless and are taught by people who were not good enough to get a job in these industries themselves. Do you think that the best lawyers choose to earn £40K a year teaching, or £150K a year in practice?

Before the 1960s (when the rot set in many areas), some people went to university (as their chosen profession required it, or they wanted to explore academically and were clever enough to make it worth society funding them to do so), some people did apprenticeships (most lawyers although they called it being articled, accountants, technicians, etc.) and the rest (the great majority) left school at 16 or 18 and got a job. This arrangement worked absolutely fine and suited all 3 groups.

Mass entrance to higher education was a conspiracy created by left-wing liberals (who fancied getting tenure in a UK 2nd rate, globally 5th rate university) and successive governments (who were rather keen to "improve" youth unemployment figures). The victims were those who were conned in to getting worthless degrees rather than finding jobs and learning whilst working, and of course the poor old taxpayer who foots the bill.

As a side note, my employer (a large engineering company) used to recruit most graduates from the UK. Now we recruit the vast majority from overseas. That isn't because they overseas ones are cheaper, or work harder, but they are better than many British applicants on a level playing field (our recruitment centres). When graduates from India have better written English than British ones, you know this country has a serious problem...


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## Doris68 (12 November 2010)

Well said qwertyuiop ^^  I concur!


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## Quadro (12 November 2010)

firm said:



			Quadro - Non EU students may have to pay fees in Scotland but EU students do NOT, unless they are from NI, England or Wales.  

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Education/UniversitiesColleges/16640/financial-help

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Was meaning outside the EU, they are very keen on taking Canadians atm for some reason!!!


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## Quadro (12 November 2010)

kiritiger said:



			What was it you didn't like about Aber Quadro?
Just interested as I am here now (1st year). I am enjoying the course but the attitudes of some people here is just unbelievable (not in a good way  )
		
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Will PM you during the week when i have time to write it all out!
I worked in Inn on the Pier for a year and saw some of the most disturbing things i have ever seen!!!!


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## kiritiger (12 November 2010)

Quadro said:



			Will PM you during the week when i have time to write it all out!
I worked in Inn on the Pier for a year and saw some of the most disturbing things i have ever seen!!!!
		
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Thanks Quadro


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## babymare (12 November 2010)

my daughter there protesting for middle class ppl - she was not involved in trouble works damn hard in summer - her degree will let her study further hazard management - ummm you ppl who call students do you know what that is????? going and living in  areas of earhquakes volcaninos tusamins - she will pay back her student loan and look to save ppl at same time mmmmmn so knock that


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## Berpisc (13 November 2010)

Sadly I agree with you qwertyuiop and kids are being let down badly by this system.


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## BlairandAzria (13 November 2010)

I went to an excellent Scottish university and graduated four years ago.  I had to pay full tuition fees although my scottish, french, spanish and irish fellows did not.  I am half scottish, have spent every summer since i was knee-high to a grass hopper larking around the highlands and islands with my cousins.  Pure fortuity that my parents re-located south of the border for work, and I sat A-levels rather than Highers  meant that I left with 17,000pounds worth of debt and i had to work all my way through university and my cousin with none.  How is that fair and right?  It is not.


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## BlairandAzria (13 November 2010)

I whole-heartedly agree with qwertyuiop above.  Well said my friend, well said


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## Hullabaloo (14 November 2010)

perfect11s said:



			Im pleased for you, that you had a good education.  Sadly the people with big chips on shoulders  are more about inverted snobbery and  believing you're a victim and all this pathetic leftwing tosh about thatcher. What about all the people who bettered themselves got  to own a house  started a  bussiness because the tories made it possible,  the left want you to feel dependent on the  state,hate self reliance and loath anyone who is a freethinker..... cameron and his cohorts want you me and everyone to better themselves for the good of every member of society ...please dont let the left try to  ruin this great country ever again...
		
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I'm a few years older than Sussexbythesea and was also fortunate enough to get a good education at a time when grants were available.  My parents weren't poor but were certainly not well off and worked bloody hard to enable me to do it, even with my student grant.  In the current situation I would not consider going to university with the amount of debt I would have to carry.  Cameron and his mates have no idea of life in the real world and what some of those figures (which I'm sure seem like peanuts to them) mean to ordinary people.  

And for what its worth, I graduated during the Thatcher era.  Finding a job was a nightmare and I had to move 400 miles from my family and friends to get work.  I was fortunate that my parents were able to help me by making sure I had a deposit for a flat etc, otherwise god knows what I would have done.  I have worked hard and I guess you could say I've bettered myself but the people who made it possible are my parents and myself - certainly not the tories!

Education is an investment in our next generation and I think its disgusting that we are not prepared to make that investment in the people who are the future of this country.


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## kiritiger (14 November 2010)

I had an idea the other day. In the first year of university you have to get 40% to pass. It doesn't count towards your degree at all, you just have to get more than 40%. Well, if they made this figure much higher, say 75 - 80% where if you don't achieve this you cannot continue on to complete the degree, maybe some students would take university more seriously. Perhaps if they got say over 50 or 60% they could get a Higher Education Diploma (I don't know if that really exists!) or something. This way, only the students who want to make the effort can get degrees. They would stop wasting their money and other people's taxes. Hmmm...wouldn't deter all the muppets though


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## zefragile (14 November 2010)

kiritiger said:



			Well, if they made this figure much higher, say 75 - 80% where if you don't achieve this you cannot continue on to complete the degree, maybe some students would take university more seriously.
		
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Or maybe universities would be empty. I don't know anyone on my degree that gets consistently over 70%, and we're not a stupid lot...


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## kiritiger (14 November 2010)

zefragile said:



			Or maybe universities would be empty. I don't know anyone on my degree that gets consistently over 70%, and we're not a stupid lot...
		
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 Fair enough, but have to get over 90% for an A* in A level.
Only in the 1st year though, not in subsequent years. What sort of percentage would you suggest? (If that question comes across as sounding sarcastic, it's not meant to be. I genuinely want to know!)


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## Doncella (14 November 2010)

I went to Aberyswyth (hell on earth, and also a terrible uni and i do have others to compare with!) 
Also Aberystwyth dished out "emergency" loans that did not have o be paid back (up to the value of £1000) to those who had in fact spent all their normal loans ! Several of the recepients i knew bought, holidays, cars, washing machines, shopping sprees and drinking. Can only assume this was funded by my fees???[/QUOTE]

I can vouch for this.  See my earlier posts.


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## zefragile (14 November 2010)

kiritiger said:



			Fair enough, but have to get over 90% for an A* in A level.
Only in the 1st year though, not in subsequent years. What sort of percentage would you suggest? (If that question comes across as sounding sarcastic, it's not meant to be. I genuinely want to know!) 

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They give A*'s at A level now?! I did not know that, haha behind the times, much? 
I've no idea what percentage to suggest, to be honest.


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## Maesfen (14 November 2010)

BlairandAzria said:



			I whole-heartedly agree with qwertyuiop above.  Well said my friend, well said 

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So do I.   Very well written and explained, thank you.


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## lillith (15 November 2010)

The difference between marking at A-level and degree is that at A-level the majority of the exams are based around 'getting the right answer' and the essays pretty much the same, some analytical content is required for the higher marks but it is fairly yes/no based marking.

Getting all the facts in correctly and referencing them will only get you 50% or so at degree level, the rest of the marks are based on analytical skills, argument structure, including lastest research and/or opinions all properly referenced and expressing your own opinions. This is a much more subjective marking style and even with moderation will depend somewhat on your marker's opinions. The result is that achieving over 70% is a real stuggle because it can be difficult to know exactly what is required for that, it isn't like you can say 'if you get 10 questions right out of 10 you get 100%' because getting the correct answers may only be 50% of each question's available marks, your presentation, backup and analysis of why/how/where the results came from and how valid they are make up the rest.

That is a little bit of a ramble but I hope it makes sense.


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## woodtiger (16 November 2010)

Some interesting points raised here.  I was overseas when these riots occured, recruiting international students for a Russell Group university (RG is the term given to  group of research intensive universities, nd are similar in status to the USA Ivy League).  These students pay vast amounts of money to come to the UK to study, due to the reputation that we have for an outstanding education system.  There is intense competition between the UK, Australia and USA, and increasingly from Asian Universities, for these lucrative international students, who subsidise the home students with their fees. 

I think that one issue is that the previous government introduced "Widening Particiption", the term given to the goal of having 50% of adults having received some form of higher education by 2010 (?).  Polytechnics which served an excellent purpose in providing vocational education and qualifications (HND etc) and Further Education Colleges were given degree awarding powers and university status, and the UK now has around 160 universities.  This has ultimately devalued the ordinary Bachelor degree, and graduates have saturated the market.   Consequently young people behave as if they are entitled to higher education, when it is not neccesarily the right direction for everyone.

I have just returned from the Gulf, where education is not a priority.  Here, students sit a high school certificate in year 12 (this involves yes/no answers, no critical thinking or reaserch, unlike A-Level).  Those with 70% or more are given a government scholarship covering not only their tuition fees, but their travelling and living expenses (and they don't live cheaply!).  These students arrive in the UK, and it is a massive shock to them that they cannot buy their grades at degree level but have to work for them.  As a general observation, the middle eastern girls arrive, are shocked but work hard and do well - they have something to prove.  The boys arrive in the UK, are shocked by the demands of the course and do not.

I believe that we will see a number of these "new" universities disappear over the next few years.  Already there are massive targets set to recruit international students, who effectively keep these universities afloat.  The higher ranked universities attract research funding from industry and the government, so are less dependent upon the income from international students.

The UK has one private university:  Buckingham.  Here students pay the same fees regardless of whether they are from the UK or not.  The courses are shorter: a bachelors degree is usually three years, whilst here they are two.  We may see more of these.  In the US there are corporate universities, McDonalds anyone?  Seriously, these corporations invest in the future through setting up their own universities, educating their future employees.

In China the government sets the syllabus. If at the end of a course students cannot get employed, the course is pulled.  Whilst I think that this is extreme, taking away the freedom to choose, the concept is sensible.

Maybe a solution could be to raise entry requirements to all higher education courses ensuring the quality of students is maintained.  For medicine, students need not apply unless they have completed a Clinical Aptitude Test, have six weeks relative work experience as well as three A's at A-Level and at least nine A's at GCSE.  This would "sort the wheat from the chaff" in terms of academic ability, reducing the numbers of applications, and going back to when university was not an entitlement for the masses but the next step for those genuinely high achieving.

Steps would need to be taken to ensure the employability of the many students who were simply not academically strong enough. Going to university would be something for younger students to aspire towards, rather than the assumption that this is their right.

Hmm, bit of a digression but still.  Interesting thread....


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## Onyxia (16 November 2010)

qwertyuiop said:



			Before the 1960s (when the rot set in many areas), some people went to university (as their chosen profession required it, or they wanted to explore academically and were clever enough to make it worth society funding them to do so), some people did apprenticeships (most lawyers although they called it being articled, accountants, technicians, etc.) and the rest (the great majority) left school at 16 or 18 and got a job. This arrangement worked absolutely fine and suited all 3 groups.
		
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Sorry to say I agree-very well put.


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## lillith (17 November 2010)

Just a note - when I went to Uni (5 years ago) it was not so much considered a 'right' but a necessity. Right though school and onwards we were basicaly told that without a university education we would never get a decent job or amount to anything. You want fewer people to go to uni? persuade the schools and 'guidance counsellors' to push or even offer the other options.


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## woodtiger (17 November 2010)

Indeed Lilith, which was schools and FE colleges supporting the Labour government's goal of widening participation.  The WP teams installed in universities (to attract those students) and in FE colleges and schools (to advise them), were given vast sums of money with which they ran projects and interactive events in schools.  I remember one activity thet the WP team at the university I worked for at the time going into a primary school to make pretty mobiles out of coathangers, tissue paper and glitter.  They had thousands in funding towards these types of activities which I find disturbing in the first place.

I feel terribly sorry for students who were given the message that University is their only option as many found themselves studying a subject that they weren't passionate about but were doing "because they could".  This is how unusual (mickey mouse?) degree subjects were developed to satisfy the massive numbers of students that were being encouraged to go to University, and where many of the new universities appeared from


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## Hairy Old Cob (6 December 2010)

When I left school I was clever enough to go to Agricultural College "Clever People went to University" Not DROSS with useless o levels and gc`s or whatever qualifications are on offer this week this is why the country is inundated with hard working East Europeans whilst our home grown dossing wastrels toss it off doing a useless degree thats if they even stop and finish the course. The sooner people realise they would be better getting a trade and not thinking they are are better than they are the sooner this country will get off its fat Ass and things will improve.


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