# Arab Showing, what a disgraceful display



## AdorableAlice (28 June 2015)

I spent today at the Three Counties Show Ground where two shows were going on.  The National Arab Show and a NPS show.  Classes were in adjacent rings in front of the stabling.

Just why are Arab exhibitors allowed to chase horses with plastic bags on the end of lunge whips, why are people rattling bottles of stones at the horses, screaming and ranting, banging the railings and acting like idiots.  As for the handlers, what a load of twits they were.  Horseman ? no, more like horse torturers, yanking and snatching at mouths, dragging horses sideways and flicking horses in the face to get the ridiculous stance.

It was two different worlds, the NPS rings were a genteel affair, the other side of the railings was a chimpanzee tea party.


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## Ladyinred (28 June 2015)

I fail to understand why the AHS doesn't act on this. It has been happening for years now and there are some truly awful videos if you choose to search them out.


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## NZJenny (28 June 2015)

Couldn't agree more.  Have owned Arabians for years, but haven't been to a show for 15 years or more.


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## Archangel (28 June 2015)

The National Show is at the end of July - it must have been a regional group show.  But I agree I cannot bear to see them being yanked about.  There are plenty of fab arabs out doing things but the showing is ridiculous and there is so much knee action now.  Ugh.


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## Meowy Catkin (28 June 2015)

It's utterly horrible and is why I don't take mine to in-hand shows (bar a quiet class at my local non-breed specific show).

Time and time again I read articles in the welfare section of The Arabian Magazine talking about this issue, but nothing seems to be progressing. The chap from Bluebell Arabians who showed my gelding's sire did a long piece about kind training, handling and his concerns about the way things are. Sadly he also stated that after he spoke out about his concerns in an earlier article and how he wanted to show horses with their welfare in mind, he had fewer clients! He couldn't understand why people took their horses away or wouldn't send horses there, just because he said that he would be kind in his methods. It's just shocking.

I know that there are some 'classic' arab showing classes out there, but they are few and far between.


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## Barnacle (28 June 2015)

Have to join the chorus here - I hate that side of the Arab world. Disgraceful behaviour.


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## Rollin (28 June 2015)

I have not attended any AHS shows or viewed classes.

My only experience has been with Shagya Arab approvals which were very calm and nice.  This clip is of the 2014 EU Shagya Champion filmed at Babolna the Hungarian National Stud and foundation stud for the Shagya.  WE bought two mares from them and the horses are wonderfully treated.

The stallion is very closely related to a Shagya stallion well known to followers on the Breeding Forum.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70VVLp-XYmQ

There is a 7 min video of the whole championship showing how stress free it was for the horses.

By the way I always have a whip available with a plastic bag on the end.  It is very useful as a giddy-up, however, my 9 week old CB filly takes no notice of it whatsoever!!.  If I don't want to go in my stable I am NOT going to go in my stable!


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## Velvet82 (28 June 2015)

Agree!!! I've not long looked into Arabian showing and was so shocked by what I saw. It seems even worse in America? It really saddens me. I would love to go and watch a pure Arab show but have been completely put off by the footage I've seen.


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## WelshD (28 June 2015)

The flimsy halters on some of the Arabs and scant clothing of some of the handlers are an accident waiting to happen too

Mind you some of the Welsh breed showing is as chaotic


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## zaminda (28 June 2015)

A few years ago some older members of the showing fraternity complained about something which they saw in the lorry park. Nothing happened, but they received a lot of grief from people connected to the person concerned.  Most of the shows don't seem to have much to do with the AHS from what I can tell. If they did, the welfare issue would surely be cause for concern from the charities commission .


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## Enfys (29 June 2015)

... and that is why, even though I had show quality horses, I never showed my arabs at anything more than local level. 

I hate the Arabian show scene, there are good handlers, they can't all be condemned, but on the whole it is not enjoyable to watch and the horses mostly look, at the very least worried, at worst, absolutely terrified  

On the flip side of the coin I have been to Open Days at world class show/breeding yards (Bychan and Halsdon to name just two of many) and the handling has always been tactful and the horses show better for it.


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## Wizzkid (29 June 2015)

I know nothing about showing but went along to support a friend of a friend with her baby Arab. I was so shocked but apparently that's very normal.... Not for me!


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## OwnedbyJoe (29 June 2015)

And then they wonder why people think Arabs are stupid...


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## asmp (29 June 2015)

Couple Of years ago I took our youngster to a very low key local showing in hand show to get him some ring experience.   Took our older criollo along for company and thought might as well put him in the foreign breeds in hand class for something to do - I totally forgot about Arabs!  The class was full of them and they were all being wound up by their handlers outside the ring.  It was a real eye opener (and reminded me why I hate showing - it's exciting as watching paint dry!)


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## The Fuzzy Furry (29 June 2015)

This wasn't 'normal' in the late 70's and through the 80's when I was producing for a lovely owner, among the other breeds we had in.
Things were exactly the same as per any other in-hand classes - apart from the Welsh C's & D's in hand at their own shows (and still the same now).


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## Hetsmum (29 June 2015)

That is true TFF.  I remember showing my arab in the late 80's early 90's and there was none of that.  I imagine it came from America - most of the bad things seem to..........


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## The Fuzzy Furry (29 June 2015)

Hetsmum, we'd have been thrown out the ring then! 
I do remember one Arab that came over from Holland for a HOYS qualifier (and qualified) but when in the Lloyds Bank finals the handler was roundly told off by stewards and given a final (only) warning, that was prob in around 84. The rest of us were dumbfounded in the collecting ring as to how a handler could act like that!


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## be positive (29 June 2015)

AdorableAlice said:



			I spent today at the Three Counties Show Ground where two shows were going on.  The National Arab Show and a NPS show.  Classes were in adjacent rings in front of the stabling.

Just why are Arab exhibitors allowed to chase horses with plastic bags on the end of lunge whips, why are people rattling bottles of stones at the horses, screaming and ranting, banging the railings and acting like idiots.  As for the handlers, what a load of twits they were.  Horseman ? no, more like horse torturers, yanking and snatching at mouths, dragging horses sideways and flicking horses in the face to get the ridiculous stance.

It was two different worlds, the NPS rings were a genteel affair, the other side of the railings was a chimpanzee tea party.
		
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It is total contradiction to their so called rules for showing, links below but in summary "outside assistance" " exhibits are not to be excessively stirred up."
No devices, gadgets or loud noises shall be used to excite horses.
Whips must not exceed 48 inches and must not have attachments fastened to them. 

All these and more get broken including the overuse of makeup, most will have an excessive amount of oil and makeup on something that may mean elimination  but again totally ignored by exhibitors and judges. 

The AHS have been criticised for years over this, the rules are clear, they are not upheld probably due to pressure from international exhibitors who have developed this awful trend.
Links to rules and also the AHS guidelines to showing, they mention "the horse should walk with a relaxed open stride" "stand still so the judge can view from all sides, if it cannot stand still the judge cannot judge him"

http://www.threecounties.co.uk/library/files/AHS 2014 Rules For Showing.pdf

http://www.ahsshowsandevents.com/Forms to download/Guidelines to showing booklet.pdf


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## Deltaflyer (29 June 2015)

I only used to do local showing with my registered PBA (15/16 arab the rest welsh D) so it was all very sane and polite, that was a long time ago LOL. Mind you, have you ever seen Section D stallions being shown professionally !!!!! Just as bad.

On a side note, what's with the almost hackney knee action of the grey Shagya stallion ? Is that the norm for arabs these days ?


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## Rollin (29 June 2015)

Deltaflyer said:



			I only used to do local showing with my registered PBA (15/16 arab the rest welsh D) so it was all very sane and polite, that was a long time ago LOL. Mind you, have you ever seen Section D stallions being shown professionally !!!!! Just as bad.

On a side note, what's with the almost hackney knee action of the grey Shagya stallion ? Is that the norm for arabs these days ?
		
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I don't know what is normal for Arabs, I only own Shagya Arabs and certainly mine can Piaffe when turned out or brought in with no encouragement from me.  My own stallion will naturely move like that if he spots a mare but doesn't trot like that when we hack out.


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## skint1 (29 June 2015)

I've always felt that it's a testament to the wonderful temperament of the Arabian horse that more handlers don't get flattened in the showing process. Not that I agree with it at all because I don't.


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## Annagain (29 June 2015)

I think it's because arabs  (wrongly, in my opinion)have a reputation for being highly strung so people think they need to live up to that and deliberately wind them up. The same happens with Sec D stallions to a certain extent (although they generally need less winding up!). 

From what I've seen (mainly of Sec Ds as that's most of the showing I've seen) however, it's always the well behaved ones who win The best ones ooze presence and the "look at me" attitude without being nutters. Shame a lot of handlers don't notice this.


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## paddy555 (29 June 2015)

Hetsmum said:



			That is true TFF.  I remember showing my arab in the late 80's early 90's and there was none of that.  I imagine it came from America - most of the bad things seem to..........
		
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I cannot comment on the showing as I hate to see arabs mucked around but in 1985 I bought my arab colt from one of the top UK studs. The lady got all the horses to move around their pens using plastic bags. We did get to see them moving. It wasn't so much fun however after we had purchased our colt, taken him home and then went into his stable to top up his bed with shavings which were in a plastic bag.


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## Deltaflyer (29 June 2015)

Rollin said:



			I don't know what is normal for Arabs, I only own Shagya Arabs and certainly mine can Piaffe when turned out or brought in with no encouragement from me.  My own stallion will naturely move like that if he spots a mare but doesn't trot like that when we hack out.
		
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Maybe it is a stallion thing. Mine was a mare and had what I always think of as the typical arab action, very straight knee action so they look like they're floating when they trot. That being said, that stallion is stunning. Just a shame the handlers feel they have to traumatise the horses to show them off when arabs show off quite nicely when left to their own devices


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## Rollin (29 June 2015)

Deltaflyer I can assure you that no horses are traumatised at Babolna.  They have a hostel, so we spent a weekend there.  Saw all the stallions and young horses, we rode, we were taken on a carriage ride.

The same was true when we went to the stallion grading in Burgendy, nice polite handling.  Because our stallion spent last year in endurance and now is SJ, we don't want him 'hotted' up.

Think we will video our plastic bag for the forum!! (smiley face)


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## Deltaflyer (29 June 2015)

Rollin said:



			Deltaflyer I can assure you that no horses are traumatised at Babolna.  They have a hostel, so we spent a weekend there.  Saw all the stallions and young horses, we rode, we were taken on a carriage ride.

The same was true when we went to the stallion grading in Burgendy, nice polite handling.  Because our stallion spent last year in endurance and now is SJ, we don't want him 'hotted' up.

Think we will video our plastic bag for the forum!! (smiley face)
		
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Sorry, I should have qualified that by saying 'some' handlers. I didn't mean any offence to you personally. 

I've seen the same at shows with Welsh D stallion showing classes where some handlers wind the horses up so much they are virtually a danger to others both in and out of the ring but of course I realise there are good and bad in all disciplines.


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## Tiddlypom (29 June 2015)

If the AHS cannot or will not crack down on such poor horsemanship, which organisation would be best placed to come in and read the riot act so they are forced to reform (in this country, at least)? The BHS, maybe?


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## OWLIE185 (29 June 2015)

Any demonstration of bad behaviour or cruelty within the equestrian circle needs to be sorted out as it only creates a bad image for us all.
I would suggest that the attention of the BHS and WHW needs to be drawn to this so that they can investigate further and get it sorted out.


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## YorksG (29 June 2015)

The organisors of the actual show should be doing something IMO, it's on their ground, in their time and they make the money from it, so should take some respnibility for it, after all it will be their inurance if it all goes wrong and a spectator gets injured.


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## cbmcts (29 June 2015)

WelshD said:



			The flimsy halters on some of the Arabs and scant clothing of some of the handlers are an accident waiting to happen too

Mind you some of the Welsh breed showing is as chaotic
		
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I got daggers at Towerlands at one of the Arab shows there (at least 10 years ago!) when I stood with my jaw dropped at the behaviour both inside and outside the ring. Especially when I commented that 'they say Welsh Cob showing is common but at least their horses stay upright and are sound' Some of the professional handlers were pulling yearlings over in the ring and they were still being placed. The winner in the gelding class had very distinct heave lines. You couldn't stand and watch a class outside the ring because owners were charging around waving bags and rattling tins...wtf???? 

I also went to the International one year because a friend was showing her gelding. 8:30 in the morning and music is BLARING, people are chasing the horses into the ring and hammering the indoor arena boards. Horses dripping with sweat, being shanked viciously for no  apparent reason, let bounce quite literally off the walls.

I want to see an Arabs lovely floating trot, not a head in the air bunny hop going sideways not forwards. Those cutsey fabric bridles have chains under the chin and  my god, are they used.

I'm glad to say that my friends veteran Crabbet gelding shown by his owner, him in a nice plain leather snaffle bridle and her in white shirt, tie and trousers without any grandstanding or need for her supporters to bang, shout or wave Tesco bags ( Classy or what?) still got his silver medal


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## NZJenny (29 June 2015)

The revolting practices came to NZ via Australia and all of us back yard Kiwi's were supposed to be grateful that these trainers and handlers would come here at all.   

"You have to do that if you want to win" is what we kept getting told.  There will always be a few who buy in, but mostly people have just walked away, so the numbers of Arabians being shown has plummeted in recent years.


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## Clodagh (29 June 2015)

I think Crabbet showing is still traditional. I do think arabs are even more abused in the ring than the Welshies, no wonder they lose support as a ridden breed, no bone, tiny seahorse heads and acting like pschyos.


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## dominobrown (29 June 2015)

I have produced (ridden!) arabs for a breeder this year. Went to the Scottish show this year, all for quiet and sensible, not the other shows I have been too though. The ridden part is normal- they are shown as riding horses and should have the manners etc of a riding horse/ hack. All very civilised! 
The in-hand is something else though- watching a stallion get so wound up that it was rearing and striking and lunging at the hander, who was very skilled to get out the way just in time! The breeder I have ridden for is very outspoken about in hand showing, and her horses are produced in a very calm and controlled way and are a pleasure to work with, and have won the crabbet championship. 
Stuff has been said at AGM's and their are grumbles but no one seems to enforce the rules...


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## Petethehunt (30 June 2015)

We have a few arabs at our yards and know this show was not the AHS National Show but a C show.  Judges were council members of the AHS so any activity there was allowed. The exhibits are encouraged to show their arabs in full flight to show off and show the trot at full pelt and to get this to happen most shake bags wave sticks with bags on ends and shout and whoop. If you go to any Welsh show especially in Wales it is the same for their breed.   If you sit in the stand in Bluith Wales stand when cobs go round the earth shakes.  Arabs show best when lit up but to get them to do this is another thing, I am told the arab world is like the TV show TOWIE.   Says it all really


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## ester (30 June 2015)

Having been both to the national arab show and the royal welsh (and others) I found the arab showing another world to the cobs. - An awful lot less shanking and whip waving to get the cobs to stand still for a start, they seem to be wound up at times but stand when they actually need to. 

Of course the earth shakes! that doesn't really relate to their treatment though.

Activity allowed or just overlooked?


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## DanceswithCows (30 June 2015)

don't really understand the justification of 'well the cobs do it aswell!'  - and? its like little kids in the playground saying 'he started it!'


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## yellowpony (30 June 2015)

This form of Arab showing is an embarrassment, I've owned pure and part breds for forty years and I don't understand why anyone would want to do this to their horse.  It doesn't even show them to advantage.


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## Pigeon (30 June 2015)

Rollin said:



			The stallion is very closely related to a Shagya stallion well known to followers on the Breeding Forum.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70VVLp-XYmQ

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Nice looking horse but all I could think was he seems like a pita to handle. Constantly running out to the end of the line and having to be jerked back, or breaking pace.


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## ester (30 June 2015)

Pah that is far more civilised than the usual, and all the incesscent 'lungeing' that occurs. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D89RO-5oSeM


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## Pigeon (30 June 2015)

ester said:



			Pah that is far more civilised than the usual, and all the incesscent 'lungeing' that occurs. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D89RO-5oSeM

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Eurgh jeeze. What's the point of that? Doesn't even show off the paces, because horse is going sideways and flailing about. 

What's so wrong with having an obedient horse?


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## ester (30 June 2015)

and another that clearly needs the plastic bag on the end of the stick... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3ZxysAv5lg

so many videos, if anyone wants to find any welshie ones quite so bad please do!


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## Pigeon (30 June 2015)

Also do they not eventually get used to bags on sticks? I imagine they must get a whack from time to time to keep the fear fresh.


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## ester (30 June 2015)

quite exciting at the start but they are pretty much all trotting when they get to the grandstands and no swinging round in circles. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGQmLJNxVi0

have to say the one time I did attend the arab national in this country there were plenty I wanted to tell the crowd to shush for as the horse obviously found it too overwhelming and couldn't show themselves

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcELy9B1_WA


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## NZJenny (30 June 2015)

What everyone forgets, is that Arabians were bred to canter!  A big trot, when you have miles of desert to cross, and no stirrups, is of no use to anyone.  Trot is not used in Arabian costume classes, for that very reason. And any one who has ever ridden any miles knows, canter is far easier on both horse and rider.

So, apart from the appalling handling and the dreadful modern conformation, Arabians are also losing (or in most cases have already lost), their fabulous canter as well.


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## Meowy Catkin (30 June 2015)

There are still many well conformed arab horses out there. They aren't necessarily the ones winning in-hand of course. Having said that i do like the Straight Egyptian (so a seahorse headed type) stallion Botswana and he's done very well in-hand. 

There is such a huge variety in the arabian breed. Both of the horses below are arabs.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/cms-arabiansinternational/files/photos/465/images/large.jpg?1398187101

http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.co...f-you-could-pair-my-mare-stallion-madjani.jpg

I do find it sad that some of these wonderful horses are treated so badly by their 'trainers'. Anyone who has known ex in-hand horses will know that they are far from the psychos that they were described as looking like earlier in this thread. The vast majority have wonderful, kind, willing temperaments and they somehow retain that despite everything. This kind of showing does the breed such a disservice with non-arab horse people.

ETA - I wonder what people make of this video? It shows the australian Crabbet stallion Snow'n'Fire doing a display with lots of whip cracking. He's a working stock horse. I think he's a great little horse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h88dA28YGKw


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## tallyho! (30 June 2015)

Loved that video faracat.

Out of the two pics, I much prefer the second as the first does not even look real... I mean how does it even breathe?


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## Meowy Catkin (30 June 2015)

The way they turn them out does not become them at all. Shaving the muzzle and round the eyes and then piling on the oil. Yuck. He's actually a very nice horse when you break down his conformation. The other is straight through the hocks which I have noticed a few times in the race bred arabs. My anglo is a bit straight in the hocks and her sire is - yep you guessed it - a race bred stallion.

I did pick the two extremes, you get pretty much every variation in between the two also.


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## ester (30 June 2015)

Nowt wrong with a bit of whip cracking with a purpose, I'd rather he'd look less like he was trying to remove his back teeth in that vid though!

All of Cally's confo faults can be spotted in her race bred sire


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## junglefairy (30 June 2015)

Faracat said:



			ETA - I wonder what people make of this video? It shows the australian Crabbet stallion Snow'n'Fire doing a display with lots of whip cracking. He's a working stock horse. I think he's a great little horse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h88dA28YGKw

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I love arabs, a proper old school ridden type is a lovely all round ridden horse. The in-hand showing makes a mockery of the breed. 

I hate that video though, horrible riding. The rider has no tact or elegance, he looks like he's just yanking the poor horse around.


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## Meowy Catkin (30 June 2015)

Yes, he deserved to be ridden better.

Ester - He's the same stallion that sired my mare IRC. Is Cally also straight through the hocks and a bit narrow chested?


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## ArabianGem78 (30 June 2015)

Reports like this remind me why I don't show my well-bred, well put-together, well mannered mare. She is a classic, good stamp of a crabbet but I bought her to be my riding, endurance companion and that is what she is. I am tempted though to take her into an arab class and show her "properly" (i.e. calm and well-mannered) even though we would be placed NOWHERE!


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## Zobeyni Arabians (30 June 2015)

I fell in love with Arabians in the 1970's when they were still shown sensibly without shaving and lashings of oil and the horses had a leg at each corner and often went on to appear under saddle in the show ring or in performance.  These horses do still exist but their owners and breeders don't bother with the oil and hoopla nonsense.  
If you search the back rings at Arabian shows you can still find calm, well built Arabians in the Crabbet Classes.  These classes are sponsored by the Crabbet Organisation which is named for the Crabbet Arabian Stud, founded in the 1870s, and the predominant ingredient in traditionally bred Old English Arabian horses.  These horses usually do a little light, sensible showing for their education and a bit of fun and go on to become superb ridden horses turning their hooves to all kinds of occupations as well as the obvious endurance sector.  The 50th anniversary of the famous Tom Quilty endurance ride in Australia has just been won by a Crabbet stallion and his rider.
This is how Arabians are meant to be and they do still exist if you know where to look.  It is just a shame that sensible showing where horses are turned away if their handler's whips are too long (never mind any plastic bags!) have become reliant on enthusiast clubs while the mainstream gives the general horse world the impression that all Arabian horses are crazy.
The horses are not really the problem!


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## Fatfish (1 July 2015)

Sadly, the British Arabian scene has imported the worst aspects of both Welsh Cob and American Arabian showing. I have had Arabs for thirty five years, breeding high class horses with both type and performance ability, but I no longer find any pleasure in going to shows, either to show or as a spectator. Arab 'showing' is no longer about showing: it is a spectacle, like the circus and the spectators too often behave in a like manner. Owners of horses with Crabbet lines are lucky in that they have an alternative: there is nothing of that kind available to those of us who breed other bloodlines. Complaint upon complaint has been delivered to the AHS Council, but their stance is that 'C' shows are run under European rules, where this kind of behaviour is permitted, and we must lump it.

I find it sickening that this beautiful, talented, breed is displayed in such a way that makes real horsemen and women turn their backs in disgust, but again the AHS appears oblivious to the damage being done to the breed's reputation and therefore its market. As long as a small circle can win and sell to each other, then everything is apparently well in the world. There is little or no thought given to developing the market for geldings which are the inevitable result of any breeding programme.

Thankfully, there ARE people who care about the original Arab and its reputation as a ridden horse sans pareil, but they literally do not make the noise that the inland crowd do, and so do not catch the public eye. But they can be found, in the ridden ring, or at any one of the many activities in which Arabs thrive - not just endurance but also hunter trials, showjumping and dressage. So if you are offended by the vulgar display of the in-hand Arab ring, turn your back on it and head for the ridden Arab classes, where you will find tradition upheld, and many, sane, capable ridden horses.


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## princess pony (1 July 2015)

Thw thing is dc's are surposed to monitor these things, but because they are too scared to stand up to the top handlers they dont. 

I refuse to show inhand now since a few years a go a horse at a show was reported by a few people to be whipped in the stable area by a professional, photos were taken of their wounds, only the horse was disqualified from the show and nothing happened to the handler... 

The ahs dont have any guts to stand up to them, cause of the money side! Shameful


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## cornbrodolly (1 July 2015)

Perhaps one way to get round the C shows rules would be to only have inhand classes fro youngsters? 4 yr olds and up to be ridden only. Thats the case for lots of breed/type classes in the showing world .Then the trainers would have to train any mature animal to  be sensible in the ring and not this awful exagerated tension ? Visiting USA in 1989 we watched Arab classes - were horrified by the type of handling and behaviour that earned rosettes - but it soon came across to this country,unfortunately.


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## princess pony (1 July 2015)

That wouldnt work as no matter what age group they are they get shown the same. 
Ahs just been to stand up rather that hide behind their mountains of money.


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## DanceswithCows (1 July 2015)

I enjoyed the vid faracat but what the heck was going on with the mouth?  I couldn't see what kind of bitting situation was going on but it looked pretty hard and cranked in, not what I usually expect from stock-type riding - neck reining?  

It's all a shame, I like arabs but they really do come across like nutters with all this.  its the same in all showing though seemingly, people claiming to love their animals but then forcing them into further and further contortions for a bit of ribbon  whether it's shearing sheep in the depths of winter or plugging cow's tits up to bulge the udder before a class or teasing and frightening horses into 'performing' it all depresses me.  I'm going to very tentatively have a go at showing my mini gelding but if I get any sniff of having to do any kind of crap to him to win we'll both be high-tailing it out of the ring!  

Ironically I sometimes get grief for what I 'put my cows through' for performances, people are very suspicious of the training methods for performing animals, vehemently against circus etc. and just assume it's cruel when I've never seen anything approaching normal everyday showring abuse with professional performing animals!


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## ester (1 July 2015)

Faracat said:



			Yes, he deserved to be ridden better.

Ester - He's the same stallion that sired my mare IRC. Is Cally also straight through the hocks and a bit narrow chested?
		
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Pogojii, Russian who looks nice in some photos and quite strange in others!

straight through the hocks, very narrow chested and wide behind and bum high 

Oh and wild like an arab 







It's nice to hear that not all arab fans dig the current showing trends. There are some that I really liked when I went.


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## rara007 (1 July 2015)

princess pony said:



			That wouldnt work as no matter what age group they are they get shown the same. 
Ahs just been to stand up rather that hide behind their mountains of money.
		
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And they'd still breed them just they'd be written off at 4 as useless or breeding stock and by then would probably be difficult to retrain to become a normal riding horse!


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## Auntieboo (1 July 2015)

No not all arab breeders or fans of Arabs are so lacking in horse skills.  Unfortunately a lot of newcomers to the breed are, they just copy what they see in Europe and the Middle East and sadly the AHS have no power to stop what goes in in it's own country due to belonging to the European group called ECAHO. They always lay blame at their door for what happens in the ring.  Bit like us in the UK should we leave the European union or stay in it.  The AHS in the UK could leave ECAHO but if it did you would see no one at it's shows, if a show is put on for sensible calm handling under the UK AHS rules no one turns up. Education could be the answer but I doubt if any handler will admit to lacking in basic horse skills.  The AHS believe that a show needs such razzmatazz to bring in exhibitors, spectators and new blood...for me they need to get some balls and make some new rules that at least can over rule those of ECAHO to be used in our own country at least.  There could be a fine line got between having fun day out and making the arab breed look like stupid.


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## JoannaC (1 July 2015)

The modern Arabian horse leaves me cold.  I love the Crabbet look which can also be found in other types of arab.  My gelding is Crabbet/Polish which is a lovely mix and my mare pure Crabbet.   Both are great riding horses and a pleasure to look at although the modern enthusiast would call them plain!   I love seeing Arabians natural and think all the shaving and make up just make them ugly.    To me inhand showing should be about getting youngsters out and about for experience before they are broken to ride and can't understand why in hand show horses are worth so much more money than a lovely riding horse.    The Crabbet classes are still run traditionally and are well represented but I think I read somewhere that some shows did put on an amateur class to be shown traditionally but there was very little take up.


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## Velvet82 (1 July 2015)

Fatfish said:



			I find it sickening that this beautiful, talented, breed is displayed in such a way that makes real horsemen and women turn their backs in disgust, but again the AHS appears oblivious to the damage being done to the breed's reputation and therefore its market. As long as a small circle can win and sell to each other, then everything is apparently well in the world. There is little or no thought given to developing the market for geldings which are the inevitable result of any breeding programme.

Thankfully, there ARE people who care about the original Arab and its reputation as a ridden horse sans pareil, but they literally do not make the noise that the inland crowd do, and so do not catch the public eye. But they can be found, in the ridden ring, or at any one of the many activities in which Arabs thrive - not just endurance but also hunter trials, showjumping and dressage. So if you are offended by the vulgar display of the in-hand Arab ring, turn your back on it and head for the ridden Arab classes, where you will find tradition upheld, and many, sane, capable ridden horses.
		
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^ this


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## ester (1 July 2015)

Auntieboo said:



			No not all arab breeders or fans of Arabs are so lacking in horse skills.  Unfortunately a lot of newcomers to the breed are, they just copy what they see in Europe and the Middle East and sadly the AHS have no power to stop what goes in in it's own country due to belonging to the European group called ECAHO. They always lay blame at their door for what happens in the ring.  Bit like us in the UK should we leave the European union or stay in it.  The AHS in the UK could leave ECAHO but if it did you would see no one at it's shows, if a show is put on for sensible calm handling under the UK AHS rules no one turns up. Education could be the answer but I doubt if any handler will admit to lacking in basic horse skills.  The AHS believe that a show needs such razzmatazz to bring in exhibitors, spectators and new blood...for me they need to get some balls and make some new rules that at least can over rule those of ECAHO to be used in our own country at least.  There could be a fine line got between having fun day out and making the arab breed look like stupid.
		
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It's difficult to say if we don't do it that way no one will come, when many would consider if they are going to do it like that we don't want them here anyway . 

It has a similar ring the endurance gb debate to it to me.

Seems a bit of a get out of jail free card rather than man up and do something about it .


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## EstherYoung (1 July 2015)

We were very careful when we showed our youngster, as his older brother had had his mind blown by the in hand world. We found a couple of county shows where the handling was very traditional and no one psyched their horses. The ridden judges were judging the in hand classes, and they were definitely looking at the horses with their riding horse glasses on.

So our youngster got a lovely quiet showing experience, gained lots of confidence, and we had some nice pointers about his potential as a riding horse.

The sad thing is that these classes are dwindling and we risk losing them. Support the good guys, peeps.


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## Meowy Catkin (1 July 2015)

ester said:



			Pogojii, Russian who looks nice in some photos and quite strange in others!

straight through the hocks, very narrow chested and wide behind and bum high 

Oh and wild like an arab 






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That's him. 

This is my girl. She was a bit nappy in her youth, but is a genteel lady these days apart from when it comes to alpacas - she really, really doesn't like them!


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## Pigeon (1 July 2015)

Zobeyni Arabians said:



			If you search the back rings at Arabian shows you can still find calm, well built Arabians in the Crabbet Classes.  These classes are sponsored by the Crabbet Organisation which is named for the Crabbet Arabian Stud, founded in the 1870s, and the predominant ingredient in traditionally bred Old English Arabian horses.
		
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Just looked up the Crabbet Arabian. Now that's more like it!!


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## EstherYoung (1 July 2015)

Dipping a toe into the conventional horse world:






But seriously, it was a really relaxed experience for him. Nice shows are still out there, and that's coming from me as a non show person.


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## Meowy Catkin (1 July 2015)

My seahorse headed gelding has a fair bit of Crabbet blood. For example (plucked from his pedigree) Magnum Psyche is 25.1% Crabbet, Camargue is 56%, Vona Sher-Renea is 47.7% and Balaton 28.1%. I haven't worked out what % my gelding has yet as I need to trawl back to work out what percentage some of his ancestors have. My grey is 66.something %, I believe you need 75% or above to show in crabbet classes. So neither of mine have enough, but that doesn't stop them from being blimmin' good horses.


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## Pinkvboots (1 July 2015)

My first Arab gelding did some in hand showing as a younger horse with a brilliant handler whom I would use again if either of mine did in hand, I do go to some of the Arab shows but mainly watch the ridden classes rather than the in hand as both mine mainly do the ridden now and I enjoy watching the ridden so much more.


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## ester (1 July 2015)

Cal is a softy, missing the brave gene for too much jumping though she can. Post suspensory she is just being Mum's hack atm which suits her nicely!


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## Meowy Catkin (1 July 2015)

ester said:



			Cal is a softy, missing the brave gene for too much jumping though she can. Post suspensory she is just being Mum's hack atm which suits her nicely!
		
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That does sound a bit familiar.  CM loves jumping and is good at it, but she often has a crisis of confidence somewhere around a course (generally about a stride out from a fence too), so I got very good at keeping my leg on even if she appeared to be really taking me to the fence. She is a fabulous hack and that really is where her heart lies. She's terribly nosey, so I think that she likes to have a good gawp at what the neighbours are up to.


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## ester (1 July 2015)

Lol yup, cal is very capable but needs very clear instructions so her and mum were often not a good combo, she'd tend to get cocky, scare herself then have a meltdown and nothing could convince her to jump something she wasn't sure about! 

Very very nosey! Thankfully our field is surrounded by houses so lots of gardens to nose at and old people to entertain. She also loves to stop hacking for a good gossip to the point that she would try and take you into the local DIY yard in case .

And an attention whore 
surrounded by birminghamers on the beach in zummerzet 






Sorry if we have derailed the thread OP!


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## Meowy Catkin (1 July 2015)

I also apologise OP. 

There is a difference between them there as CM is very wary of strangers. She only likes and trusts certain people which made having her on part livery when i first bought her a disaster, as she decided that she didn't like the YO or any of the staff. *embarrassed face*


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## pax (1 July 2015)

I have owned and bred Arabians since about 1971. I am appalled by the current ways of showing to the extent I only watch/participate in Crabbet or ridden classes. I even wrote to the Daily Mail once about the use of electric cattle prods to make arabs "stand up" though never received a reply. The Arab Horse Society have some rules but they appear unable to strictly enforce them. I am considering not being a member next year because of this. There are many who feel the same and they just don't show any more but continue to breed properly conformed horses to sell without the need for ribbons that mean diddly squat to real Arabian enthusiasts


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## cbmcts (1 July 2015)

See, I love the Crabbets and their slightly less pretty cousins the Polish Arabs. To me, they are useful, fun, scarily intelligent horses that can turn their hooves to anything - only if they think it's their idea first mind. But then, I like a pony temperament and an animal that can think for itself.

I liveried on a Crabbet stud for 10 years and their horses totally changed my perception of what an Arab should be. Like many others I thought all Arabs were swivel eyed loons with spindly legs and tiny feet and a 9 stone max weight limit...until I met the Crabbets. Yes, they're flashy, could snort and prance with the best of them but they went out and did everything that asked of them including driving with aplomb and presence. One day I'll have one 

Oh, btw I also used to show Welsh Cobs including stallions up to County level - pp are saying that Welsh showing is the same/as bad as Arab showing. It really isn't. Yes the Welshs are firey and it's not unheard of for them to be airborne but they are under control, sound and there is no outside interference. They have to show their paces, especially trot to have any chance of being in the ribbons. They have to stand for the judge and make up is strongly disapproved of! Also, if you were to swing your horse around, let alone allow it to bounce off structures in the ring, you'd be asked to leave. At bigger shows the only inhand classes are for youngsters and breeding stock - as it should be.


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## princess pony (2 July 2015)

I remember watching a real nice gelding he was shown as a yearling, 2 yrold and 3yr old he won championships at regional, national and international level. 
He had the most beautiful head, and well put together, and had a rather big stand. 

I saw him last year 1st time being shown since a 3 yrold he was 6 now and i was horrificly shockes he had a hugely dipped back... now i know he isnt broken to ride, but it must be the big stand they make them do. I couldnt belive i was looking at the same horse from 3yrs ago he looked so strong... yeah it could be from breeding/conformation but this horse was scoring 17/19 for conformation as a baby.


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## Ainoga (2 July 2015)

Equestrianism across the board is full of behaviours, standards, methods and practices which some adopt and some abhor. Within all of those circles there are examples of the good, the bad and the ugly... The Arabian showing world is no different. Collectively bashing the breed isn't fair.

I won't point out the examples from other equestrian circles which I personally dislike, as I'm sure there are many people who think they are perfectly acceptable. What I will say is that I enjoy the ''modern" way of showing when it's with empathy and understanding to the horse. My own mare loves showing off and enjoys a bit of encouragement with the rustle of a bag, rattle of some stones and some clapping. And to those who think that a horse who has been 'subjected' to this at shows or at home can't go on to be a well rounded horse think again! My mare loves hacking, endurance rides, jumping, dressage and she's qualified and was placed at HOYS after being shown at C Shows across the country.

Saying all that I don't believe the 'frozen' American type pose, the shanking or circling is necessary - but I think these generally are becoming less acceptable anyway. Well known, highly admired and successful handlers have spoken (and written!) about these - Eric Dorssers, Emma Maxwell, Princess Alia Al Hussein to name a few...

I'm proud to own an Arabian horse.


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## DanceswithCows (2 July 2015)

Ainoga said:



			Collectively bashing the breed isn't fair.
		
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woah, where did that happen?


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## Ainoga (2 July 2015)

DanceswithCows said:



			woah, where did that happen?
		
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Sorry, I meant collectively bashing the show scene for the breed.


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## Fransurrey (2 July 2015)

Haven't read all replies, but I watched the holding ring for the Arab classes at The South of England Show, as Exmoors were in the same area. I ended up walking away after threatening to wrap a whip around some woman's head (said to OH, since they're violent enough with their horses). There were people with balls on the end of whips, pom poms, clips...I was utterly appalled.


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## princess pony (2 July 2015)

I highly rate eric and emma, infact emma trained my mare when she was a filly before i brought her, i love the way they show aswell as joanna ullstrom she really shows naturally but still with the flash and presence of everyone else, she shows through out the world as well as teaching ametures the same with love. 
But people like this are extreemly well established that they stay with their regular clients where are up and coming younger generation handlers are feeling the stress for keeping their clients with them, you'll see horses being shown theough the season by 2 or 3 different handlers how can a horse settle? 
It seems abit cut throat now, but at the end of the day horse is more than just rosettes and prize money.


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## pip6 (8 July 2015)

Personally I wouldn't be interested in an arab that had been used for in hand showing as a riding horse. For some obscure reason showing peeps seem to think if it's a failure showing they can offload it into endurance, when these horses need to be bred to work and preferably be sane. The breed is much maligned through what people see on the showing circuit, and the psycos (I've known some) who've had their brains blown by the 'training'. I own Crabbets, so thankfully we have the 'old-fashioned' classes where frozen pose etc is not allowed, and a calm sensible temperament is rewarded. If this type of class is not well supported by people voting with their feet at shows, then the current abomination will continue. People say Crabbet owners are lucky to have these classes. Er, no, we have made the positive choice not to follow 'fashion' and 'trends'. We have remained true to the horse and the idea behind the breed. Anyone can do this, either own a Crabbet or support old-fashioned classes when they are offered.


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## fburton (8 July 2015)

Ainoga said:



			My own mare loves showing off and enjoys a bit of encouragement with the rustle of a bag, rattle of some stones and some clapping.
		
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What would you say to those who think it is rather anthropomorphic to assume a horse loves and enjoys these things rather than simply being startled into a higher level of excitement? I think it's probably harmless.


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## FairyLights (8 July 2015)

ultimately its the fault of the judges. If they sent the frozen pose cantering madly instead of trotting ones out of the ring and gave the rosettes to the nice calm ones the problem would solve itself.


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## conniegirl (8 July 2015)

JoannaC said:



			The modern Arabian horse leaves me cold.  I love the Crabbet look which can also be found in other types of arab.  My gelding is Crabbet/Polish which is a lovely mix and my mare pure Crabbet.   Both are great riding horses and a pleasure to look at although the modern enthusiast would call them plain!   I love seeing Arabians natural and think all the shaving and make up just make them ugly.    To me inhand showing should be about getting youngsters out and about for experience before they are broken to ride and can't understand why in hand show horses are worth so much more money than a lovely riding horse.    The Crabbet classes are still run traditionally and are well represented but I think I read somewhere that some shows did put on an amateur class to be shown traditionally but there was very little take up.
		
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My arab was a polish/crabbet.
He didn't do very well above local level as he was too plain and not flamboyant enough but you know what he was the best all rounder you could have ever asked for


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## FairyLights (8 July 2015)

Hes gorgeous


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## conniegirl (8 July 2015)

FairyLights said:



			Hes gorgeous
		
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Thanks, unfortunalty he passed away several years ago due to a tumor.


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