# meat man



## vixann (8 November 2010)

This wont be a popular post and I don't want peoples opinions please if you are going to say the usual rubbish
Does anyone know how much ponies are bringing at the moment?
7yo 14hh stocky native type?
Thanks


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## ofcourseyoucan (8 November 2010)

phone potters or turners. they will give you the price per kg. passport does need to have a clean unsigned section 9 tho.


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## vixann (8 November 2010)

ok thanks - any ideas on how to get contact details? google just brought up some strange things!!


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## martlin (8 November 2010)

Potters:
Staplegrove Mills, Staplegrove, Taunton, Somerset TA2 6PX
Tel: 01823 259913


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## Tinseltoes (8 November 2010)

WHY????????


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## martlin (8 November 2010)

why what?


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## nativetyponies (8 November 2010)

vixann said:



			This wont be a popular post and I don't want peoples opinions please if you are going to say the usual rubbish
Does anyone know how much ponies are bringing at the moment?
7yo 14hh stocky native type?
Thanks
		
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i had a 13.3 stocky native type go through last year..i got £135 for him.

horsemeat is roughly 70p kilo ATM..around 35p per pound deadweight..


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## Tinseltoes (8 November 2010)

WHY the OP Want to know how much ponies fetch for meat.


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## Zebedee (8 November 2010)

sharon1959 said:



			WHY????????
		
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Why not?

If the pony needs to be euthanised then places like Potters are quick & humane. From an economic ponit of view there is no charge for the service if the animal has a clean appendix 9 & none of the associated disposal charges.


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## Zebedee (8 November 2010)

sharon1959 said:



			WHY the OP Want to know how much ponies fetch for meat.
		
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It may be that the OPs circumstances are such that she needs to weigh up the costs involved from all angles, for instance cost of transport to Potters, against the likely renumeration.


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## Tinseltoes (8 November 2010)

Sorry couldnt do it. Horrible idea as far as i'm concerned.


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## martlin (8 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			i had a 13.3 stocky native type go through last year..i got £135 for him.

horsemeat is roughly 70p kilo ATM..around 35p per pound deadweight..
		
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I'm going to make some people very cross now, but will ask anyway - I'm a nosy type
What is the killing out rate? or live weight prices?


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## ThePony (8 November 2010)

sharon1959 said:



			Sorry couldnt do it. Horrible idea as far as i'm concerned.
		
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Horrible for you to consider perhaps, but a kind and humane end for a horse or pony.


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## nativetyponies (8 November 2010)

you only get paid on a clean carcass...the deadweight.


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## martlin (8 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			you only get paid on a clean carcass...the deadweight.
		
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Ah, you see, that makes it tricky to work out With cattle/sheep/pigs you can sell either by live weight or dead weight, you can also work out from killing out rate how much you are likely to get. So, for example, a 100 kg pig will fetch about 70-75kg of pork.


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## Cedars (8 November 2010)

Sharon1959, nobody cares what you think. The OP asked a question, if you can't answer it, shove off.

OP, I believe there is a stock market esque list somewhere, perhaps google may be your friend, if not, ring the places themselves. xxxxx


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## luckyoldme (8 November 2010)

sharon1959 said:



			Sorry couldnt do it. Horrible idea as far as i'm concerned.
		
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I dont like the idea neither and its not very nice to think about .... but i wont go so far as to offer to buy this horse of the OP... will you?


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## vixann (8 November 2010)

like i said sharon1959 I dont want ppls opinions fyi the pony is crazy and dangerous - happy now?

ps thanks everyone else


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## nativetyponies (8 November 2010)

martlin said:



			Ah, you see, that makes it tricky to work out With cattle/sheep/pigs you can sell either by live weight or dead weight, you can also work out from killing out rate how much you are likely to get. So, for example, a 100 kg pig will fetch about 70-75kg of pork.
		
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its very similar..i roughly go on a ratio of 2/3rds of liveweight


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## nativetyponies (8 November 2010)

vixann said:



			like i said sharon1959 I dont want ppls opinions fyi the pony is crazy and dangerous - happy now?
		
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oh is that all?

dont tell the NH/Parelli weirdo's..or they'll be pm'ing you claiming to be able to cure it!!


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## hayinamanger (8 November 2010)

I cannot see why some people are so against the idea of taking a horse to a licenced horse abbatoir like Potters, this kind of prejudice (sp) creates a welfare issue for some equines who are in need of pts. The cost of euthanasia and disposal runs into hundreds of pounds, more than lots of horse owners can afford. This is a perfectly acceptable option IMO, you can stay with your horse throughout. Of course it's terribly sad but whatever option you chose is just as sad, at least you get a cheque for 50p/kg and you know that you have done the right thing for your horse without going into debt!
Sorry if this offends but it makes perfect sense to me.


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## cm2581 (8 November 2010)

sharon1959 said:



			Sorry couldnt do it. Horrible idea as far as i'm concerned.
		
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You weren't asked for your opinion on that matter.


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## martlin (8 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			its very similar..i roughly go on a ratio of 2/3rds of liveweight
		
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Thanks for that


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## vixann (8 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			oh is that all?

dont tell the NH/Parelli weirdo's..or they'll be pm'ing you claiming to be able to cure it!!
		
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lol thats exactly what i was expecting!! if they can cure it - let them - see who can do it with the least broken bones!!


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## cm2581 (8 November 2010)

Also, to anyone that may know, does the age, type or body condition/quality of the carcass affect the price as it does with other livestock? Does a shetland steak provide the same eating 'quality' as a thoroughbred? I've always been curious how those who do eat horse meat (I never have but would not be against it if the animal were humanely raised and killed) know how good or not it will be? With cattle for example, Aberdeen Angus is considered a premium product and attracts a premium price.

Do Potters accept horses with the 'not suitable for human consumption' section signed? And if so do they charge instead of pay?

I'm just curious as it would really never be a viable option for me being several hundred miles from them it would prob cost more to get a horse there than the carcass would return!!


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## nativetyponies (8 November 2010)

i'll use this phrase again..

TB/WB are used for human consumption..better quality of meat

then the rest is "pony pies" ( that phrase again LOL)..Zoo's Longleat/woburn take these


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## martlin (8 November 2010)

TBH, AA is considered a premium product because of clever marketing, not because of some special qualities of the breed


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## nativetyponies (8 November 2010)

Martlin...i've just found the bill of the pony i mentioned

quantity..457..pony weight

unit price...0.25 per pound

i received £114.25


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## cm2581 (8 November 2010)

martlin said:



			TBH, AA is considered a premium product because of clever marketing, not because of some special qualities of the breed 

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I do actually know that, I was just using it as an example!! Personally I would prefer something much slower growing, such as a highland or galloway. I wonder if slow growing horses have a better flavour than faster growing ones such as TBs? 

Wish somebody in the UK would farm horses for meat to an acceptable welfare standard and without drugs deemed unsuitable for human consumption as I would quite like to try it but am concerned about the welfare issues! Hence also why I prefer to try also avoiding danish bacon, although I do unfortunately support their production systems by diagnosing their diseases at my work!


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## bonnie93 (8 November 2010)

interestin thread!  suppose some people couldnt imagin doin this to their horses, i would personally be one of them, my horse is my baby!  but i can understand why it is an option for others. 
 if your horse goes to turners their legs may be used for dissections by reaseheath students, i know because i was one!


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## martlin (8 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			Martlin...i've just found the bill of the pony i mentioned

quantity..457..pony weight

unit price...0.25 per pound

i received £114.25
		
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Thanks,
I'll go off and weigh Grumpy now 

Disclaimer - please don't call me a murderer, you should know I can't weigh in Grumpy (I don't have scales big enough).


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## jasmine123 (8 November 2010)

i give mine to the hunt, they come pick them up or you drop them off they shot it and give it to the hounds so it works all round i think and they are always very understanding!
can i ask why the horse is crazy?


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## vixann (8 November 2010)

have pmed you


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## millimoo (8 November 2010)

bonnie93 said:



			interestin thread!  suppose some people couldnt imagin doin this to their horses, i would personally be one of them, my horse is my baby!  but i can understand why it is an option for others. 
 if your horse goes to turners their legs may be used for dissections by reaseheath students, i know because i was one!  

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I agree..... fascinating - personally wouldn't be my choice as i'm too sentimental (mums still got the ashes of her last horse sitting in a wicker basket collecting dust under the stairs - she really must put them in a hole in the paddock)

I think the OP is being very responsible and ending any future carnage - and if said pony is that much if a git, I probably wouldn't be sentimental either


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## martlin (8 November 2010)

cm2581 said:



			I do actually know that, I was just using it as an example!! Personally I would prefer something much slower growing, such as a highland or galloway. I wonder if slow growing horses have a better flavour than faster growing ones such as TBs? 

Wish somebody in the UK would farm horses for meat to an acceptable welfare standard and without drugs deemed unsuitable for human consumption as I would quite like to try it but am concerned about the welfare issues! Hence also why I prefer to try also avoiding danish bacon, although I do unfortunately support their production systems by diagnosing their diseases at my work!
		
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How about a lovely British White steak? The problem with the late maturing ones is that the 30 months old rule spoils the trade - mine are nowhere mature enough at 30 months, so I have to either sell them too light or as over 30 - either way I'm losing money. I've started crossing with continentals for part bred beef.

With horse meat, it depends what sort of taste you like, if you enjoy a steak (beef) of a Belgian Blue for example, a TB will be more up your street as very lean and fast maturing, but tricky to cook well without drying out.
But for your Galloway/highland comparison, you would be better off looking at part draft breeds or heavish WB as that will have enough fat tissue for a moist roast.

Oh, dear, now I think I'm going to duck


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## TicTac (8 November 2010)

Here we go again.

OP , why didn;t you just google Potters and then phone them up and ask for yourself what you want to know rather than start a thread like this.

If you don't want negative comments or opinions then don't post a question!


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## vixann (8 November 2010)

here we go again?
I asked for advice - got a name - asked for contact details then sharon started. if you dont like the content why dont you just go back to the lounge and forget about it?


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## beeswax (8 November 2010)

OP, dont get mouthy with other users they are entitled to their opinions you could have got this info from the tinternet you didnt need to come on here and ask a question, sadly a good percentage of horse owners/riders end up with a dangerous animal because they just cant/dont know how to handle it and basically are **** scared of it, and the poor pony/horse ends up at potters (thank goodness there is a potters and a turners). RIP poor pony.  I certainly wont be standing with my hands outstretched for a measly +-£100 for my beloved horse when he goes - cos he gave me good in life, so i will give him good in return and he will not have the smell of blood up his nostrils and feeling of fear from others around him when he goes.


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## the_sophies (8 November 2010)

The op knows that she has a responsibility to offer it a quick and humane death (presumably this is her pony).  If this means sending it to an abattoir, so be it.  Surely that's better than leaving it to languish in a field for years like a lot of the welfare cases we see?  

ETA, if it were mine, I would send it to the hunt.  Less stressful for the pony IMO.


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## the_sophies (8 November 2010)

beeswax said:



			he will not have the smell of blood up his nostrils and feeling of fear from others around him when he goes.
		
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^ this.


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## nativetyponies (8 November 2010)

TicTac...

try goggling Potters...it doesnt actually come up with Stillmans number..the one Martlin put up..as the Abattoir is owned by them..and Potters rent the Hall on a wednesday morning.

this info IS NOT available on google


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## vixann (8 November 2010)

beeswax said:



			OP, dont get mouthy with other users they are entitled to their opinions you could have got this info from the tinternet you didnt need to come on here and ask a question, sadly a good percentage of horse owners/riders end up with a dangerous animal because they just cant/dont know how to handle it and basically are **** scared of it, and the poor pony/horse ends up at potters (thank goodness there is a potters and a turners). RIP poor pony.  I certainly wont be standing with my hands outstretched for a measly +-£100 for my beloved horse when he goes - cos he gave me good in life, so i will give him good in return and he will not have the smell of blood up his nostrils and feeling of fear from others around him when he goes.
		
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I said at the beginning I didnt want opinions and i think the title of the thread is pretty obvious so ppl dont read it by accident.
I looked on net and couldnt find anything so i asked on here. I am not scared of him and i do know how to handle horses thanks - that "poor pony" could quite easily injure/kill ppl - whose life is worth more?
I would rather get 100 than nothing - I have put a lot of time and effort into this pony and he hasnt given me a good life.


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## nativetyponies (8 November 2010)

beeswax said:



			OP, dont get mouthy with other users they are entitled to their opinions you could have got this info from the tinternet you didnt need to come on here and ask a question, sadly a good percentage of horse owners/riders end up with a dangerous animal because they just cant/dont know how to handle it and basically are **** scared of it, and the poor pony/horse ends up at potters (thank goodness there is a potters and a turners). RIP poor pony.  I certainly wont be standing with my hands outstretched for a measly +-£100 for my beloved horse when he goes - cos he gave me good in life, so i will give him good in return and he will not have the smell of blood up his nostrils and feeling of fear from others around him when he goes.
		
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and it would help if you didn't spout clap-trap as well.

***smell of blood up his nostrils***..a typical answer from someone who hasn't been inside a working Hall


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## vixann (8 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			TicTac...

try goggling Potters...it doesnt actually come up with Stillmans number..the one Martlin put up..as the Abattoir is owned by them..and Potters rent the Hall on a wednesday morning.

this info IS NOT available on google
		
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Thanks


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## TicTac (8 November 2010)

vixann said:



			here we go again?
I asked for advice - got a name - asked for contact details then sharon started. if you dont like the content why dont you just go back to the lounge and forget about it?
		
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Doesn't bother me but you can't expect people not to express an opinion. Surely as a responsible horse owner you should know the name of a slaughter man local to you, or ask somebody with a horse in your area etc.

You know as well as I do that these kinds of threads are always emotive, my point is you can't always expect people to agree with you. Public forum, public response!


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## the_sophies (8 November 2010)

vixann said:



			he hasnt given me a good life.
		
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So he deserves the abattoir?  

I agree with you that he needs to be put down.  Why you feel the need to make money out of sending him through there is beyond me.  Having seen the kill process in an abattoir I sure as hell wouldn't want to send one there if I could help it.


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## pastie2 (8 November 2010)

If a horse has to go surely the current market price per kilo is irrellavent(sp). It just has to go. I am also of the opinion that this post was unecessary.


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## martlin (8 November 2010)

TicTac said:



			Doesn't bother me but you can't expect people not to express an opinion. Surely as a responsible horse owner you should know the name of a slaughter man local to you, or ask somebody with a horse in your area etc.

You know as well as I do that these kinds of threads are always emotive, my point is you can't always expect people to agree with you. Public forum, public response!
		
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Do YOU know your local horse abattoir?
Seeing as there are only 2 in the country...


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## vixann (8 November 2010)

TicTac said:



			Doesn't bother me but you can't expect people not to express an opinion. Surely as a responsible horse owner you should know the name of a slaughter man local to you, or ask somebody with a horse in your area etc.

You know as well as I do that these kinds of threads are always emotive, my point is you can't always expect people to agree with you. Public forum, public response!
		
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No I do not know a local slaughter man - hope that answers your question 
I usually have vet put horses down - why shouldn't I make money?
At least he isnt been shipped there from abroad


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## Rosehip (8 November 2010)

Being a farmerrs daughter, and now having my own flock of sheep, Im comfortable with the rearing of animals for meat, so wouldnt in theory have a problem with horse meat being farmed in the UK. 
My 2 girls are exempt in their passports as Melly has had so many meds for her hocks, and seren has had bute with me when she was lame last year. However, I dont disagree with taking a horse to potters or turners if they had the right paperwork. 
When you have livestock you have to accept losses, and to be honest if we had the vet to every sheep that was sick we would be bankrupt - thats what my OH's gun is for. 
My horses are my babies and I would hate to think that they suffered in any way, if potters/turners were the nearest people I would use them. I spent nearly £500 on my old lads cremation, and still have him on my windowsill, but I cant afford to do that for each and every horse.


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## nativetyponies (8 November 2010)

the_sophies said:



			Having seen the kill process in an abattoir I sure as hell wouldn't want to send one there if I could help it.
		
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which one?  Turners or Potters?


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## vixann (8 November 2010)

pastie2 said:



			If a horse has to go surely the current market price per kilo is irrellavent(sp). It just has to go. I am also of the opinion that this post was unecessary.
		
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Is it too hard to read my opening where it said that i dont really want opinions or do ppl think this doesnt apply to them!!! lol


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## beeswax (8 November 2010)

OP I will have my say "freedom of speech and all that", and don't tell me to ****clap trap****, "so you spent a lot of time on him oh shame well he has let you down, so now you want money for him instead no matter how you get it; maybe you are just giving him the wrong signals and from the way you have come across in this thread from the beginning i am not surprised because some of us on here have got the wrong signals.....and i have seen and read up about what happens at abbatoirs, you obviously havent otherwise you would know the name of your closest meat man who is there to clean up the MESS, yes even the mess left behind for those that are chucked out in fields, and you are entitled to do what you think is best for the pony but never say that others cannot have an opinion otherwise do not come on to a public forum. Have a good evening!! RIP poor pony


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## the_sophies (8 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			which one?  Turners or Potters?
		
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Straffan, IRE.  My uncle used to send his old hunters.  Maybe the process is different in Britain, or things may have changed.  Either way, I wouldn't send one of mine.


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## vixann (8 November 2010)

beeswax said:



			OP I will have my say "freedom of speech and all that", and don't tell me to ****clap trap****, "so you spent a lot of time on him oh shame well he has let you down, so now you want money for him instead no matter how you get it; maybe you are just giving him the wrong signals and from the way you have come across in this thread from the beginning i am not surprised because some of us on here have got the wrong signals.....and i have seen and read up about what happens at abbatoirs, you obviously havent otherwise you would know the name of your closest meat man who is there to clean up the MESS, yes even the mess left behind for those that are chucked out in fields, and you are entitled to do what you think is best for the pony but never say that others cannot have an opinion otherwise do not come on to a public forum. Have a good evening!! RIP poor pony
		
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Get over yourself - poor pony? y dont u take it?


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## jodie3 (8 November 2010)

I'm not certain about 'giving' your pony to the hunt, I have been quoted £200 by our local hunts to come out and shoot a pony to then be fed to the hounds (clean passport) which in my opinion is alot of money.  Especially as local knackerman would charge very slightly more to burn the carcass.


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## luckyoldme (8 November 2010)

vixann said:



			Is it too hard to read my opening where it said that i dont really want opinions or do ppl think this doesnt apply to them!!! lol
		
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this subject never fails to upset the more emotional members on this forum and i think you knew by the tone of the op that it would raise one or two negative comments. However i think most of the posters have been very supportive of your descision... This must be a terrible time for you so rather than upset yourself by reading the very few negative comments, why dont you just ignore the thread now.


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## beeswax (8 November 2010)

In all honesty if i could afford another i would, i would probably end up with all that go en route to the abbatoirs. If he has got to go he has got to go at least he can't hurt himself or anyone else and i understand that, but lets not start talking about prices per kg etc okay!  Disagreement finished and wounds washed off alright, chin up, i bet it is a hard decision to make at the end of the day.


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## *hic* (8 November 2010)

I have bought in lambs and piglets. I look after them well, give them the best life I can then I kill them on site (they're not used to travelling in trailers so I don't think it would be kind to travel them to an abattoir) and have them butchered and they end up in my freezer. I prefer to know exactly where my meat has come from, what it has been fed, that it has been treated with compassion and dignity to the end.

I was absolutely not joking when I asked my butcher if he had experience of butchering horses. Meat animals have to be cut up in a certain way to get the sort of cuts of meat we have grown to expect. It had occurred to me that given that these poor little native foals are fetching a guinea at market it would be cheaper for me to grow quality protein by buying a couple, keeping them until they were grown and then killing them here. Weaner pigs, say GOS X, are between £45 and £65 and I have to buy in food for them.

After all, that way I would know exactly how they had been treated from the moment they came onto my property, all through their growing up and right the way to my freezer. They would never have to suffer any further indignity or trauma being passed from market to market, bullied and frightened just a quiet peaceful life in with my others until one day it's "Ooh look a big bucket of fee . . ." *curtains*

In practice although I have no qualms about dispatching lambs I've bought in - or even bred myself - and pigs I suspect that I would find ponies too difficult to part with.


So the OP sending a horse to Potters'? Good on her, gets another dangerous animal out of circulation. Prevents more posts saying "Look at this ad, I can't believe it's so cheap" when the poor thing has been sent to yet another dodgy dealer to sell because it has manmade issues. Or worse the posts saying "I've bought a horse and now it's doing XYZ and I think it's too dangerous to ride, shall I do Parelli with it."

I'm sure I remember a post several years ago now where someone had bought a horse with known problems and a family member had been killed by it. She was wondering what to do with it next That is a truly awful situation to be in, better to make sure that that sort of thing won't happen. 

And as for sending them to Potters' - how many of you horselovers who couldn't bear to send their ponio to Potters have ever considered WHAT is in the dogfood you happily dole out to your beloved pooches? Presumably you want them to have a premium product, just as you want what is, in your opinion, the best for your horses.


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## nativetyponies (8 November 2010)

beeswax, you are weird fish indeed


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## Maesfen (8 November 2010)

Well said Jemima, agree with every word.


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## the_sophies (8 November 2010)

As much as I wouldn't send _mine_ I definately would not want to take all that were 'en route to the abattoirs'.  Christ, that's one way to end up poor or dead!


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## Fairynuff (8 November 2010)

martlin said:



			How about a lovely British White steak? The problem with the late maturing ones is that the 30 months old rule spoils the trade - mine are nowhere mature enough at 30 months, so I have to either sell them too light or as over 30 - either way I'm losing money. I've started crossing with continentals for part bred beef.

With horse meat, it depends what sort of taste you like, if you enjoy a steak (beef) of a Belgian Blue for example, a TB will be more up your street as very lean and fast maturing, but tricky to cook well without drying out.
But for your Galloway/highland comparison, you would be better off looking at part draft breeds or heavish WB as that will have enough fat tissue for a moist roast.

Oh, dear, now I think I'm going to duck

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ever thought of crossing with Salers?


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## Maesfen (8 November 2010)

jodie3 said:



			I'm not certain about 'giving' your pony to the hunt, I have been quoted £200 by our local hunts to come out and shoot a pony to then be fed to the hounds (clean passport) which in my opinion is alot of money.  Especially as local knackerman would charge very slightly more to burn the carcass.
		
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That could possibly because you're not a subscriber or farm which hounds go over (assuming here) and beside there is quite a lot of the horse that can't be used to feed hounds so has to be disposed of at a high cost to themselves; they shouldn't have to pay out for doing you a service.  If you were a subscriber/farmer it should only be a token payment which covers their costs.


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## Groom42 (8 November 2010)

Maesfen said:



			Well said Jemima, agree with every word.
		
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Yes, I could live with this.
Quality of life, AND quality of death.


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## PC Steele (8 November 2010)

flamehead said:



			Sharon1959, nobody cares what you think. The OP asked a question, if you can't answer it, shove off.

OP, I believe there is a stock market esque list somewhere, perhaps google may be your friend, if not, ring the places themselves. xxxxx
		
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Well said Flamehead!!!!!!


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## jodie3 (8 November 2010)

Maesfen said:



			That could possibly because you're not a subscriber or farm which hounds go over (assuming here) and beside there is quite a lot of the horse that can't be used to feed hounds so has to be disposed of at a high cost to themselves; they shouldn't have to pay out for doing you a service.  If you were a subscriber/farmer it should only be a token payment which covers their costs.
		
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Apparently if I were a subscriber it would only be £100.


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## Maesfen (8 November 2010)

Fairynuff said:



			ever thought of crossing with Salers?
		
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Lol, not Salers, the ones we know are barmy!  What's wrong with Redpoll, that's gorgeous meat especially if only grass fed?  prefer that to anything else TBH, AA a close second.


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## martlin (8 November 2010)

Fairynuff said:



			ever thought of crossing with Salers?
		
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I haven't 
TBH crossing with a Charolaix gives 2 benefits:
they retain their placidity and
they're passported as Charolaix X, which brings better price per kilo in the ring... sad as it sounds, the British buyers are not interested in paying good money for British breeds of cattle

Aren't salers fairly large and horned? That would be 2 nonos for me...


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## nativetyponies (8 November 2010)

jodie3 said:



			Apparently if I were a subscriber it would only be £100.
		
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thats a good price TBH..

I had 4 foals taken away by the knackerman last october..it was £50 per foal..so £200 total..no VAT ..I paid cash


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## Rosehip (8 November 2010)

Agreed Maesfen, we were charged for taking any deadstock into the hunt - £15 for a ewe or tup, £10 for a shearling and £5 for a 'bag of lambs' during lambing season, had we have been an Atherstone farm where the hunt ran, Im fairly sure we would have had a reduction. 
I hope OP, that the supportive posts on this thread have - in your mind - outweeighed the negative. I really dont see a problem in gaining a little money from this animal by shending him/herr to potters or turners, I mean at 14hh and a stocky native, you could be asking £500-1000 on the open market, thus making much more money but sending an unsafe horse into an unknown quantity. 
Please dont lose sleep over the negatives on here, you know that you are making the right decision, and I applaud your honesty and integrity.


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## beeswax (8 November 2010)

jemima - thats what i like to hear!  Yes i am crackers but you were all enjoying the scrap while it lastest be honest.  I would only take them all if i won the euro millions i am not crackers and stupid, night people thanks for joining in on this forum and my dogs love pedigree "better by nature", lol


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## Maesfen (8 November 2010)

Maesfen said:



			Well said Jemima, agree with every word.
		
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Groom42 said:



			Yes, I could live with this.
Quality of life, AND quality of death.
		
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I should add, I've nothing against Potters or Turners and don't 'call' anyone who uses them, whether regularly or as one-offs, but I wouldn't like to use them myself unless I was incredibly pissed off with that particular horse;(joke! ) I prefer to use my hunt.



jodie3 said:



			Apparently if I were a subscriber it would only be £100.
		
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Thought that might be the case, think that's a pretty general price now.


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## beeswax (8 November 2010)

just out of interest, i wonder if they will let the owner pull the trigger as well!! ducking!!


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## Bertthefrog (8 November 2010)

beeswax said:



			OP, dont get mouthy with other users they are entitled to their opinions you could have got this info from the tinternet you didnt need to come on here and ask a question, sadly a good percentage of horse owners/riders end up with a dangerous animal because they just cant/dont know how to handle it and basically are **** scared of it, and the poor pony/horse ends up at potters (thank goodness there is a potters and a turners). RIP poor pony.  I certainly wont be standing with my hands outstretched for a measly +-£100 for my beloved horse when he goes - cos he gave me good in life, so i will give him good in return and he will not have the smell of blood up his nostrils and feeling of fear from others around him when he goes.
		
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I have taken a few over to Turners -spotlessly cleaned, handled calmly and quietly, no smell of blood, and as there were several pens of ponies just inside the building, all of which were totally calm - certainly no feeling of fear.

It's great that you are able to have your chaps put down at home when the time comes - but in many cases economics are a factor, especially if several OAPs decide the time has come - as they so often do - around the same time.


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## *hic* (8 November 2010)

I wouldn't practically be able to use them - several hundreds of miles away. My "own" horses are intended for the hunt but the butcher who comes to cut my animals up ran his own abattoir for years and has more experience shooting all species than most of us could dream of and in the event that we need an "emergency" dispatch he is on call - and has introduced himself and his gun to my headshy boy on the grounds that he is the one most likely to need to be a "patient" as he calls it. Strangely my boy really liked him - even though he must have smelt of dead animals - and allowed him to stroke his forehead with the barrel of the gun. Horrid thing to see but reassuring that he's less likely to panic at the end, should it come as an emergency.

Strange really that a man who has killed so many animals (and was fresh from killing sheep) should have such a calming way with animals. I've only once met an animal that wasn't putty in his hands, and that was an especially nasty ram.


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## *hic* (8 November 2010)

beeswax said:



			just out of interest, i wonder if they will let the owner pull the trigger as well!! ducking!!
		
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The law now says that when I kill animals at home I have to pull the trigger. My lovely slaughterman who has quietly dispatched thousands of animals of all species is not allowed to do it. I, an amateur, have to. The first time was terrible as it's one thing you just don't want to make a mistake with. We always ask the slaughterman to be there just in case, but legally he should not kill the animal. How bloody stupid is that?


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## TallyHo123 (8 November 2010)

beeswax said:



			OP, dont get mouthy with other users they are entitled to their opinions you could have got this info from the tinternet you didnt need to come on here and ask a question, sadly a good percentage of horse owners/riders end up with a dangerous animal because they just cant/dont know how to handle it and basically are **** scared of it, and the poor pony/horse ends up at potters (thank goodness there is a potters and a turners). RIP poor pony.  I certainly wont be standing with my hands outstretched for a measly +-£100 for my beloved horse when he goes - cos he gave me good in life, so i will give him good in return and he will not have the smell of blood up his nostrils and feeling of fear from others around him when he goes.
		
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Agreed.


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## Bertthefrog (8 November 2010)

I think Turners advertise in Horse and Hound (Red Lion Abbattoir)??


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## Groom42 (8 November 2010)

jemima_too said:



			The law now says that when I kill animals at home I have to pull the trigger. My lovely slaughterman who has quietly dispatched thousands of animals of all species is not allowed to do it. I, an amateur, have to. The first time was terrible as it's one thing you just don't want to make a mistake with. We always ask the slaughterman to be there just in case, but legally he should not kill the animal. How bloody stupid is that?
		
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Absolutely bloody ridiculous.
Another example of common sense taking a sabbatical


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## Tharg (8 November 2010)

Is a clean carcass one that has been skinned/gutted?

  Are any 'type' of equine used for leather?

  In the real world not everyone can get the hunt or have land to discreetly bury the animal, peeps often have mortgages families etc and circumstances can change.


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## swalk (8 November 2010)

People on here are talking about the high cost of disposal (if you do decide you want your horse/pony destroyed at home). However, I had to arrange for my old mare to be put down last year, had a quote from a nice sounding lady of £200 to shoot her and take her away for incineration. Another quote for £200 just to shoot and dispose of carcas any old how.

Then I phoned Andrew Goatman who said if I was happy for the carcass to go to the local zoo he would shoot her and take her away for.......£35. Yes, £35. I went for the expensive option of having her cremated (along with other animals) that cost me £60 and Andrew was absolutely wonderful. I know that this is definitely not the norm but surely there must be other independent knackermen out there offering services at similar cost. 

I for one would always opt to have any animal put down in familiar surroundings with as little stress as possible. I can understand having a horse put down because you feel this is the best option for whatever reason but, unless you have horses purely for business reasons and need to get some amount no matter how small for every horse that passes through your hands, I cannot understand why how much money you are going to get for its carcass is a concern.


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## 3DE (8 November 2010)

Tharg said:



			In the real world not everyone can get the hunt or have land to discreetly bury the animal,
		
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It's illegal to bury a horse on your land now


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## *hic* (8 November 2010)

swalk said:



			I for one would always opt to have any animal put down in familiar surroundings with as little stress as possible. I can understand having a horse put down because you feel this is the best option for whatever reason but, unless you have horses purely for business reasons and need to get some amount no matter how small for every horse that passes through your hands, I cannot understand why how much money you are going to get for its carcass is a concern.
		
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I don't wish to travel my "meat" animals as they are not used to it. Any of my horses I would be happy (and prefer) to drive to the hunt assuming they are fit enough to travel. Mine all accept travelling as part of everyday life and seem happy to get on the lorry. My Welsh especially would be happy as larry to be plaited up and loaded, he doesn't get many chances to go to exciting places at his time of life and he does so enjoy it!


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## Tharg (8 November 2010)

Inky_and_Sunny said:



			It's illegal to bury a horse on your land now 

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  Hence discreetely


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## PoppyAnderson (8 November 2010)

I too have taken a horse to Turners and there was absolutely no 'smell of blood' or anything even approaching it. It was as the other poster said - calm, peaceful, dignified, with very compassionate people handling it all and the pony knew nothing.


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## pastie2 (8 November 2010)

Inky_and_Sunny said:



			It's illegal to bury a horse on your land now 

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Its not as long as it is not near a river or can contaminate a water course. Permission has to be granted by the council.


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## 3DE (8 November 2010)

pastie2 said:



			Its not as long as it is not near a river or can contaminate a water course. Permission has to be granted by the council.
		
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Only true if the horse is shot - if it is killed with lethal injection burying is not allowed. Even with a bullet permission still needs to be sought from the council and DEFRA.


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## brighteyes (8 November 2010)

martlin said:



			Thanks,
I'll go off and weigh Grumpy now 

Disclaimer - please don't call me a murderer, you should know I can't weigh in Grumpy (I don't have scales big enough).
		
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Bathroom scales, one leg at a time.


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## Spudlet (8 November 2010)

Inky_and_Sunny said:



			Only true if the horse is shot - if it is killed with lethal injection burying is not allowed. Even with a bullet permission still needs to be sought from the council and DEFRA.
		
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As far as I am aware, it is totally down to the discretion of the council? The only proviso I am aware of is that only pet animals may be buried, so it's down to the council to decide if your horse was a 'pet' or not.

Although off course some councils may have that provision about injection as their own policy, but I don't believe it to be part of the law.


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## thatsmygirl (8 November 2010)

jemima_too said:



			I have bought in lambs and piglets. I look after them well, give them the best life I can then I kill them on site (they're not used to travelling in trailers so I don't think it would be kind to travel them to an abattoir) and have them butchered and they end up in my freezer. I prefer to know exactly where my meat has come from, what it has been fed, that it has been treated with compassion and dignity to the end.

I was absolutely not joking when I asked my butcher if he had experience of butchering horses. Meat animals have to be cut up in a certain way to get the sort of cuts of meat we have grown to expect. It had occurred to me that given that these poor little native foals are fetching a guinea at market it would be cheaper for me to grow quality protein by buying a couple, keeping them until they were grown and then killing them here. Weaner pigs, say GOS X, are between £45 and £65 and I have to buy in food for them.

After all, that way I would know exactly how they had been treated from th
e moment they came onto my property, all through their growing up and right the way to my freezer. They would never have to suffer any further indignity or trauma being passed from market to market, bullied and frightened just a quiet peaceful life in with my others until one day it's "Ooh look a big bucket of fee . . ." *curtains*

In practice although I have no qualms about dispatching lambs I've bought in - or even bred myself - and pigs I suspect that I would find ponies too difficult to part wi


So the OP sending a horse to Potters'? Good on her, gets another dangerous animal out of circulation. Prevents more posts saying "Look at this ad, I can't believe it's so cheap" when the poor thing has been sent to yet another dodgy dealer to sell because it has manmade issues. Or worse the posts saying "I've bought a horse and now it's doing XYZ and I think it's too dangerous to ride, shall I do Parelli with it."

I'm sure I remember a post several years ago now where someone had bought a horse with known problems and a family member had been killed by it. She was wondering what to do with it next That is a truly awful situation to be in, better to make sure that that sort of thing won't happen. 

And as for sending them to Potters' - how many of you horselovers who couldn't bear to send their ponio to Potters have ever considered WHAT is in the dogfood you happily dole out to your beloved pooches? Presumably you 
want them to have a premium product, just as you want what is, in your opinion, the best for your horses.
		
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VERY GOOD POST. I also know a horse who's rider died after a nasty fall where the horse went totally off his head, what happened to it??? He was sold via a well known web site for £400 ( very very stunning horse) oh and now his current owner has a broken leg. Come on guys if it needs doing, it needs doing. Don't be so bloody soft and get over it.
OP you are being responable to get him out off the ridden world, some people need to except life and DEATH.


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## martlin (8 November 2010)

brighteyes said:



			Bathroom scales, one leg at a time.  

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Now, I'm not big on physics, but... I don't think it works that way
I suppose worth a shot (excuse the pun) anyway


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## MizzPurpleKitten (8 November 2010)

Personally, I could never do it....I know that it's all calm and dignified etc etc but I'm just too sentimental and just couldn't do it.

When the time comes, if I have a say in the matter, my boys will be put to sleep in the comfort of their home and recognised surroundings, with a big bucket of feed!

However, having said all that, I can see why some people opt for this way to end it, and, if that's the case it's entirely your decision.

I would be interested to know how exactly the pony is dangerous however....not that I am disagreeing with you here (having previously owned a dangerous horse I know how it feels) but just interested.


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## Ditchjumper2 (8 November 2010)

OP is being a responsible horse owner and making the unltimate decision rather than palming the pony off on some poor unsuspecting person. Most of mine have gone to the hunt but I have sent one for meat. As long as it is despatched with care and humanity I don't see the problem.  Congratulations I say....pity there are not more around like you.


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## reindeerlover (8 November 2010)

brighteyes said:



			Bathroom scales, one leg at a time.  

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Works for me, I only weight 5 stone..... 

I think the people who are against this (horse slaughter, not dieting) are thinking of their friends at home, the buddy that they take hacking and to shows. There is no way I would take my pet horses to an abbatoir. However, if I had a horse that I didn't particularly like, was dangerous or I bought to sell and it had problems I would certainly consider it. There is no indignity involved and the horses don't suffer, when they die they die and it is just a body.


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## pastie2 (8 November 2010)

I dont doubt for one moment that the OP is making the right decision. So why not just get on with it, why make an issue on this forum about the price per kilo. To me it is a post designed to cause confrontation. Anyone with an ounce of sense will put a dangerous horse down, just that most people dont really advertise the fact.


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## Elliegazzellie (8 November 2010)

beeswax said:



			OP, dont get mouthy with other users they are entitled to their opinions you could have got this info from the tinternet you didnt need to come on here and ask a question, sadly a good percentage of horse owners/riders end up with a dangerous animal because they just cant/dont know how to handle it and basically are **** scared of it, and the poor pony/horse ends up at potters (thank goodness there is a potters and a turners). RIP poor pony.  I certainly wont be standing with my hands outstretched for a measly +-£100 for my beloved horse when he goes - cos he gave me good in life, so i will give him good in return and he will not have the smell of blood up his nostrils and feeling of fear from others around him when he goes.
		
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Well said. I totally agree.


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## martlin (8 November 2010)

pastie2 said:



			I dont doubt for one moment that the OP is making the right decision. So why not just get on with it, why make an issue on this forum about the price per kilo. To me it is a post designed to cause confrontation. Anyone with an ounce of sense will put a dangerous horse down, just that most people dont really advertise the fact.
		
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You need to know roughly how much money you can expect, so you can make an informed decision if it is worth the haulage... If OP was to get less money that it would cost them to get the horse there, I would imagine they might as well get a local knackerman to do the deed.


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## Natch (8 November 2010)

Nativeponies, do you know anyone who regularly takes animals to Turners, who wouldn't mind an observer coming with them for the day? I'm interested in visiting to make up my own mind, having heard differing reports. Don't think I'm quite up to volunteering to gather legs for Reaseheath yet 

*tootles off to try the one leg on the scales at a time approach to weight loss*


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## miss_bird (8 November 2010)

I have found this post very interesting, having never used a abbatoir.
I have a knackerman, who will take the animals for whipsnade zoo or cremate them, i have had all mine cremated so far.
But i will never dismiss the idea of a horse going for meat, it all depends on circumstances at the time


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## WoopsiiD (8 November 2010)

Get a grip people!!!
.
.
.
.
.
One leg at a time does not work!
Throw it in a swimming pool and work out how much water is displaced!


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## 3DE (8 November 2010)

Spudlet said:



			As far as I am aware, it is totally down to the discretion of the council? The only proviso I am aware of is that only pet animals may be buried, so it's down to the council to decide if your horse was a 'pet' or not.

Although off course some councils may have that provision about injection as their own policy, but I don't believe it to be part of the law.
		
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If a horse has been killed by injection it is not allowed to be buried due to the harm to wildlife. It's hard enough to bury a dog in the country without it getting dug up by foxes and badgers


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## martlin (8 November 2010)

WoopsiiD said:



			Get a grip people!!!
.
.
.
.
.
One leg at a time does not work!
Throw it in a swimming pool and work out how much water is displaced!
		
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Sorry, no swimming pool  and I would imagine I would need a rather large water container to measure the water displaced?


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## mon (8 November 2010)

in addition to meat money is the cost of having ponio shot and disposed of, i know when we sell cull ewes some dont make much but hunt want £15 for disposing of body so anything is better than taking to hunt businesswise.


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## martlin (8 November 2010)

mon said:



			in addition to meat money is the cost of having ponio shot and disposed of, i know when we sell cull ewes some dont make much but hunt want £15 for disposing of body so anything is better than taking to hunt businesswise.
		
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My local knackerman charges £40 for a ewe 
Some of my culls this year made really decent money, though.


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## howengold (8 November 2010)

Thankyou for posting this thread.  Alot of people hate this sort of thing but I have been looking at the costs for my veterans when the time comes and even though many people think its heartless I need to know all my options for disposal as I won't know my financial situation until the day comes.  When I make the decision as to what to do I want to be informed and not put my family in debt to get ashes to scatter and all the rest.

Do hunts also still take fallen animals or do the pts bit ?  (sorry a bit of a hyjack here x).  I know via the vets I am looking at over £400 for my one mare and although I would like to go that way my hubby couldn't justify that sort of cost


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## TheEquineOak (8 November 2010)

In theory, I have no problem with horses being sold and euthanised for meat.  I wouldn't send my beloved but I can understand why others do.

what worries me are the 'stories' that pop up in the media.  Potters for example have been known to leave an injured mare for 45 minutes after a long haul journey before being euthanised.  They also apparently shot a heavily pregnant mare, then shot the unborn foal.  In the same report, none of these horses were checked for signs of life.

These 'stories' were those of an animal charity investigating the goings on of Potters.  How much truth is in it???  If the process was widely known, then maybe people's attitudes would change... I personally have no idea of the goings on at Potters.  I can only assume a pony's final moments are similiar to that of cattle/sheep


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## sprytzer (8 November 2010)

Inky_and_Sunny said:



			If a horse has been killed by injection it is not allowed to be buried due to the harm to wildlife. It's hard enough to bury a dog in the country without it getting dug up by foxes and badgers 

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Not so Inky_and_Sunny...........i have 2 ponies buried side by side in my field, one shot and one with inj, and all i did was got permission from DEFRA, they sent me an email to show the digger driver what the regs were regarding water courses and the depth of hole and amount of soil that had to be on top of carcass.......at no time was i asked for proof they were pets1


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## howengold (8 November 2010)

Ok a bit of a dumbass question, but does the vet HAVE to arrange a horse being pts?  Are you able to go direct to the crematorium (or what ever its called) also am I able to go direct to the hunt or knackerman to arrange it?  I have to be able to give my hubby details of what to do in case I am not in a state of mind to be sensible.

Sorry again but with a 30 year old and a 37 year old I really want it all clear in my head and you lot do seem to know what your talking about xxx


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## martlin (8 November 2010)

The knackerman or the hunt can euthanise the horse (shoot it) without vet, the lethal injection however has to be administered by vet.


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## maletto (8 November 2010)

interesting, informative thread.

Thanks (most of you) for your knowledgeable comments and OP for having the nerve to post.


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## Doncella (8 November 2010)

Maletto said:



			interesting, informative thread.

Thanks (most of you) for your knowledgeable comments and OP for having the nerve to post.
		
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I agree.  I don't have any hunt connections,  I don't have my own land and I don't know the details of any horse abbatoirs.  Ergo I would have had to ask the same question as the OP.


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## SNORKEY (8 November 2010)

Hi, im not going to say anything against the post as everyone has different opions on it.
Is the horse that bad that you dont want to sell it to one of the dealers that advertises for horses with behavioural problems or sell it as a retired horse as a companion only?
You would get more for it and it would have another chance.


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## Tormenta (8 November 2010)

martlin said:



			TBH, AA is considered a premium product because of clever marketing, not because of some special qualities of the breed 

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I happen to love Aberdeen Angus, beautiful beef. However, I love Water Buffalo too, locally bred and slaughtered in the same area, once again, beautiful beef


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## YorksG (8 November 2010)

or sell it as a retired horse as a companion only?
You would get more for it and it would have another chance.

and of course there are hundreds of people queieng up to buy dangerous horses as companions............
There are animals going through sales for less than £100 which are ridable, a reasonable age and NOT dangerous.


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## Unbeliever (8 November 2010)

martlin said:



			You need to know roughly how much money you can expect, so you can make an informed decision if it is worth the haulage... If OP was to get less money that it would cost them to get the horse there, I would imagine they might as well get a local knackerman to do the deed.
		
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Err, wouldn't there be a better way of finding this out than asking on a public forum? Is it all about money or the best for the horse?


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## missyme10 (8 November 2010)

i'm a little confused on the passport issue and part of it being signed.

I've 4 horses, now 2 of them have the bit signed that I believe means they can't go for slaughter for human consumption.
The other 2 haven't as they are just filly's and as yet haven't had to have any kind of treatment that has needed this bit to sign.

So am I right in thinking that horses with that part of passport signed can't go to potters or turners? Also does this apply to meat to feed other animals, like the hunt or a zoo?

And if a horse is pts by vet, whether shot or by injection, is it still the knackerman who comes to take away to dispose of? But he can also shoot the horse himself?

I personally would choose to have mine euthanised at home and then sent for cremation, but when the time comes, my circumstances may have changed and I will have to consider other options.
I dont believe there is anything wrong with horses going to slaughter providing its done humanely, after all what is the difference between a cow and a horse, or sheep or pig for that matter.
I think you either believe slaughter is wrong and therefore are a vegitarian, or whats good for one mammal should be good for all x


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## Tinseltoes (8 November 2010)

beeswax said:



			OP, dont get mouthy with other users they are entitled to their opinions you could have got this info from the tinternet you didnt need to come on here and ask a question, sadly a good percentage of horse owners/riders end up with a dangerous animal because they just cant/dont know how to handle it and basically are **** scared of it, and the poor pony/horse ends up at potters (thank goodness there is a potters and a turners). RIP poor pony.  I certainly wont be standing with my hands outstretched for a measly +-£100 for my beloved horse when he goes - cos he gave me good in life, so i will give him good in return and he will not have the smell of blood up his nostrils and feeling of fear from others around him when he goes.
		
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yorksG said:



			or sell it as a retired horse as a companion only?
You would get more for it and it would have another chance.

and of course there are hundreds of people queieng up to buy dangerous horses as companions............
There are animals going through sales for less than £100 which are ridable, a reasonable age and NOT dangerous.
		
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Thanks.

Couldnt you offer it as a companion,so it will have another chance in life????? If I had my own land Id take him off your hands.


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## YorksG (9 November 2010)

sharon1959 said:



			Thanks.

Couldnt you offer it as a companion,so it will have another chance in life????? If I had my own land Id take him off your hands.
		
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The sanctuaries are full of unwanted horses and ponies, the market is flooded with unwanted horses and ponies, WHY WOULD ANYONE  take on a dangerous horse as a companion? 
Headdesk headdesk headdesk


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## Doncella (9 November 2010)

yorksG said:



			The sanctuaries are full of unwanted horses and ponies, the market is flooded with unwanted horses and ponies, WHY WOULD ANYONE  take on a dangerous horse as a companion? 
Headdesk headdesk headdesk
		
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I totally agree.  Thirty years ago I had a horse come to me to be broken, it really was deranged (only 4 years old).  I sent it back and told them to get shot of it, literally.  They sent it on to another woman who rode it on the road, it ditched her and was killed in the subsequent road accident.  Verdict - a brain tumour.  A few years ago I was presented with almost the same scenario.  The girl did have the horse PTS and a PM, same thing.   The horse was deranged.  Some horses cannot be dealt with other than PTS. 
Eventually they are too dangerous even to be companions.
We really must get away from the everything must be saved scenario.
Don't get me wrong, I love my horses, but as my previoius post, when the time comes I will have to be pragmatic about this and the OP asked a valid question.


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## YorksG (9 November 2010)

Doncella, we are fortunate in our area, as what used to be a licensed horse abbatoir, is now a 'pet crematorium'. They provide an excellent service and will travel to you to shoot and dispose of your horse, last time we used them it was about £200 for the basic service. We did not have the ashes returned. We have used them both by prebooking and in an emergency. They got to us within the hour for the emergency. I do not know if they have a walk in service, where you can travel to them. They did of course when it was a licensed abbatoir.


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## *hic* (9 November 2010)

sharon1959 said:



			Thanks.

Couldnt you offer it as a companion,so it will have another chance in life????? If I had my own land Id take him off your hands.
		
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All the people that say this really annoy me. If you feel so strongly do something about it; forego all the luxuries of hairdressers, new clothes, better car, new furniture, holidays, takeaways, nights out and whatever else and move to somewhere with no facilities, no social life and miles from anywhere to a house with some land then. We not "lucky" to own land we had to work damned hard and give up loads of things "normal" people expect as a right in order to be able to do it.

It's what a lot of us have had to do.

Now just for a moment THINK: you've given up all of life's luxuries for the luxury of owning your own land and seeing your own animals on it. Mortgage is big, money is tight and you're going to BUY a dangerous horse as a companion? Really or would you take one of the myriad that for whatever reason, bit lame, bit old, owner fallen on hard times, is desperate for a home and carries no risk to you or to other people. Your money, money your time - you going to look after someone else's problem or choose a horse that you want?


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## Tinseltoes (9 November 2010)

jemima_too said:



			All the people that say this really annoy me. If you feel so strongly do something about it; forego all the luxuries of hairdressers, new clothes, better car, new furniture, holidays, takeaways, nights out and whatever else and move to somewhere with no facilities, no social life and miles from anywhere to a house with some land then. We not "lucky" to own land we had to work damned hard and give up loads of things "normal" people expect as a right in order to be able to do it.

It's what a lot of us have had to do.

Now just for a moment THINK: you've given up all of life's luxuries for the luxury of owning your own land and seeing your own animals on it. Mortgage is big, money is tight and you're going to BUY a dangerous horse as a companion? Really or would you take one of the myriad that for whatever reason, bit lame, bit old, owner fallen on hard times, is desperate for a home and carries no risk to you or to other people. Your money, money your time - you going to look after someone else's problem or choose a horse that you want?
		
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I do not have ANY luxeries,nor do I own my own house.My husband works,Im a  mother and housewife and any money I do get goes on my two neds and the kids.Not claimimg benefit either. I wish I could buy my own house,but Im NOT that fortunate. Maybe one day.


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## Amymay (9 November 2010)

I cannot see why some people are so against the idea of taking a horse to a licenced horse abbatoir like Potters,
		
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Exactly!

For goodness sake - those of you who are opposed to abbatoirs, you only have to look at the situation in America to see the appalling suffering that's experienced by horses being transported to Mexico for slaughter - since the do gooders managed to get abbatoirs in the US closed down.

I won't post pictures here - but you only have to do a google search.  My god, it is truly appalling what some animals go through - and that is just during transport.  Their destruction is another situation all together.....

You people who are so anti need to wake up and smell the coffee.


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## Natch (9 November 2010)

amymay said:



			You people who are so anti need to wake up and smell the coffee.
		
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Would just like to add to that the fact that there are people who are anti-abbatoir for their own neds but who are in the real world and acknowledge it has its place 

The situation in America interests me in a horrifying way. Can anyone tell me if it is the same as France, where there is practically no veterinatry/other method of humane destruction?


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## Amymay (9 November 2010)

jodie3 said:



			I'm not certain about 'giving' your pony to the hunt, I have been quoted £200 by our local hunts to come out and shoot a pony to then be fed to the hounds (clean passport) which in my opinion is alot of money.  Especially as local knackerman would charge very slightly more to burn the carcass.
		
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I think that amount is spot on.  They are offering you a service, for which they need to be paid.

It's a damn site cheaper than your vet doing it.  Plus you have the added confidence of knowing what a professional service they offer.

All my horses have been dispatched by the hunt - and whilst it's incredibly upsetting at the time, I can only praise them for their professional and curtious service.


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## Mavis007 (9 November 2010)

When I was training (as a vet) we had to go to Potters. I was absolutely dreading it and desperately tried to think of excuses to not have to go. However, I had to go. I have to say I was actually very impressed and had all my preconceived ideas turned on their head. The horses would arrive in a trailer or lorry, go STRAIGHT in from their transport. Didn't have a clue and instantly gone. That's fine as far as I am concerned, I don't care what happens afterwards as long as the going is humane which it certainly was. I totally agree, better that than ending up as a welfare case somewhere.


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## Amymay (9 November 2010)

kharber21 said:



			Is the horse that bad that you dont want to sell it to one of the dealers that advertises for horses with behavioural problems or sell it as a retired horse as a companion only?
You would get more for it and it would have another chance.
		
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## brigantia (9 November 2010)

Naturally said:



			Would just like to add to that the fact that there are people who are anti-abbatoir for their own neds but who are in the real world and acknowledge it has its place 

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I totally agree with this. Horse slaughter is a reality along with the slaughter of cattle, sheep, etc., and we use leather tack (by-products of the slaughter industry) on our horses. This is the real world.

However, I wouldn't want *my* horse to go off to slaughter. 

What other people do is their choice. I hope places like Potters treat the animals humanely.


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## stencilface (9 November 2010)

Inky_and_Sunny said:



			If a horse has been killed by injection it is not allowed to be buried due to the harm to wildlife. It's hard enough to bury a dog in the country without it getting dug up by foxes and badgers 

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We have four buried on our land - 2 put down by lethal injection, 2 died naturally.  As they were buried using a JCB (I don't have a shovel big enough  ) and are buried at a depth of 10m, with a minimum of 7m of earth above them - I think even badgers would be hard pushed to dig them up 

They now have trees planted on them 

We also have about 5-6 dogs buried there too, all still there 

I personally wouldn't send any horse to an abbatoir - but thats my choice not too.  I see they have a purpose, just not one I'd like to use


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## Lady La La (9 November 2010)

I have never posted on a thread like this before, and I must admitt that before reading these 13 pages of pros and cons I didn't rather like the sound of selling a pony for meat, but it seems to me that the OP is doing the responsible thing by this pony & the people it may or may not end up hurting. It will be destroyed humanely, with no suffering and OP will get a little something (albeit not much) back in return for her efforts...
Would I send mine there? No, because I'm soft and fluffy and would like to be able to say goodbye to my beloved mare with her at home in my field, but that is NOT to say that I dont think these abattoirs have a place and would far rather see a pony end up in one than harming a person/getting passed around the houses for less money than a packet of crisps...
Those who are so anti ought to have a serious think. This thread has certainly opened up my eyes to a world I knew nothing about, and I'm thankful for that...


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## Amymay (9 November 2010)

Originally Posted by sharon1959  

Couldnt you offer it as a companion,so it will have another chance in life????? If I had my own land Id take him off your hands.
		
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Sharon, I spent the whole summer trying to find a companion home for my wonderful, mannerly horse - as he could not be kept sound.  Having him pts was the very last option.

No one wanted him.  This was despite him being an absolute gentleman.

Equally, how could his future have been assured had I given him away as a compaion.  How could I be certain that he wouldn't be passed on?

There are too many uncertainties in life - but the things that we do have control over are our actions in terms of our animals.

I also feel very, very strongly that it is absolutely no one's business on which method of disposal one chooses for our horses - or indeed the reasons behind it.

If a horse is to be put down, our responsibility is to ensure that the method is humane and quick.  It is not for us to judge a person on the method, means or venue.


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## Natch (9 November 2010)

amymay said:





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Be gentle Amymay. Not everyone is very worldly wise


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## Amymay (9 November 2010)

Would just like to add to that the fact that there are people who are anti-abbatoir for their own neds but who are in the real world and acknowledge it has its place
		
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Point well made - thank's Naturally


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## Amymay (9 November 2010)

Naturally said:



			Be gentle Amymay. Not everyone is very worldly wise 

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My bloomin pulse rate is going through the roof.

But yes, you're right.  And breath..............


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## Ted's mum (9 November 2010)

I have just booked a horse in of mine because he has wobblers and its going to deterioate....this horse is 17.3hh big warmblood...booked him in at potters yesterday he can't go til 8th dec as they are fully booked!


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## Amymay (9 November 2010)

Ted's mum said:



			I have just booked a horse in of mine because he has wobblers and its going to deterioate....this horse is 17.3hh big warmblood...booked him in at potters yesterday he can't go til 8th dec as they are fully booked!
		
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Sorry to hear that Ted's Mum.

Will be thinking of you (((((  ))))


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## Sandstone1 (9 November 2010)

Lady La La said:



			I have never posted on a thread like this before, and I must admitt that before reading these 13 pages of pros and cons I didn't rather like the sound of selling a pony for meat, but it seems to me that the OP is doing the responsible thing by this pony & the people it may or may not end up hurting. It will be destroyed humanely, with no suffering and OP will get a little something (albeit not much) back in return for her efforts...
Would I send mine there? No, because I'm soft and fluffy and would like to be able to say goodbye to my beloved mare with her at home in my field, but that is NOT to say that I dont think these abattoirs have a place and would far rather see a pony end up in one than harming a person/getting passed around the houses for less money than a packet of crisps...
Those who are so anti ought to have a serious think. This thread has certainly opened up my eyes to a world I knew nothing about, and I'm thankful for that...
		
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These are my feelings about it too, think it also depends on the animal, if its used to traveling etc and wont be stressed out by the whole thing ie being loaded, taken to a strange place, being handled by strangers etc etc it may be a humane option. How ever if the animal is not used to travelling and gets worried and stressed  by it all then its best to be pts at home. We all choose to have animals in our lives and I think we have a responsibility to make sure that the end is as stress free as possible.


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## flyingfeet (9 November 2010)

I sent one of mine off this year to potters - only got £230 (net of pick up) for premium 3 year old pure hano meat! 

This horse had never been ridden, but I took a punt on him as he had a wonky leg (deformed) and I picked him up as a yearling and gave him over 1.5 years of lovely herd life. However he began to be lame behind and would only get worse. 

I watched an "anti" video of potters and was so relieved by what I saw I had no problems sending him off, as this was a horse that freaked at a tetanus injection; so vet + needle would have been highly traumatic.

Granted I probably wouldn't send a loyal servant to Potters, but I think an outstanding, professional, regulated abattoir is a real blessing for the UK and long may it continue to operate.


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## Amymay (9 November 2010)

I think an outstanding, professional, regulated abattoir is a real blessing for the UK and long may it continue to operate.
		
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Hear, hear!!!!!!


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## martlin (9 November 2010)

Unbeliever said:



			Err, wouldn't there be a better way of finding this out than asking on a public forum? Is it all about money or the best for the horse?
		
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Possibly there is a better way, but the forum is as good a place to ask as any.
It is all about what's best for the horse, but there has to be financial consideration - the cost of PTS at home might be prohibitive, therefore slaughter might be more viable.


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## Amymay (9 November 2010)

Err, wouldn't there be a better way of finding this out than asking on a public forum?
		
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Why - does it offend your delicate sensibilities???


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## Maesfen (9 November 2010)

Mavis007 said:



			When I was training (as a vet) we had to go to Potters. I was absolutely dreading it and desperately tried to think of excuses to not have to go. However, I had to go.
		
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Don't take this the wrong way and I'm very likely wrong but that statement worried me and gives me the impression you could be a fluffy vet; if you're not, I apologise.
I've known a fair few vet students that have since passed out to be useful sensible vets; not one of them ever mentioned about dreading the abattoir trips or other reactions because they wanted and needed to learn everything there they could; it's all part of being a vet or a doctor, you have to have the mind and stomach to be prepared and able to deal with both the giving and taking/losing life.


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## nativetyponies (9 November 2010)

Jen_Cots said:



			I think an outstanding, professional, regulated abattoir is a real blessing for the UK and long may it continue to operate.
		
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As i've said before, if i had the money i'd open another..


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## SNORKEY (9 November 2010)

Ive tried to read all of these posts, I havn't actually seen one that says why this horse is dangerous!
Thats why I sugested a home as a companion, our mare would be very dangerous to get on she has bad kissing spine in two places, but to handle on the ground she is so sweet.
And you dont have to be really rich and have a house with tons of land to take on companion horses.
My mother doesn't ride but loves horses and she has to retired ones.

Is this horse actually dangerous to handle then? if it is I wouldn't of sugested passing it on to anyone else.


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## Maesfen (9 November 2010)

martlin said:



			Possibly there is a better way, but the forum is as good a place to ask as any.
It is all about what's best for the horse, but there has to be financial consideration - the cost of PTS at home might be prohibitive, therefore slaughter might be more viable.
		
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Better to get real views from people that have used the service than just believe any blurb there might be which might distort your views - as is apparent reading some posts on here.


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## Amymay (9 November 2010)

Ive tried to read all of these posts, I havn't actually seen one that says why this horse is dangerous!
		
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But that is entirely irrelevant.  If the OP wants a horse destroyed, it is none of anyone's business why.

They do not have to justify their actions or reasons to anyone!


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## nativetyponies (9 November 2010)

amymay said:



			But that is entirely irrelevant.  If the OP wants a horse destroyed, it is none of anyone's business why.

They do not have to justify their actions or reasons to anyone!
		
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no they dont..


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## Flame_ (9 November 2010)

kharber21 said:



			Hi, im not going to say anything against the post as everyone has different opions on it.
Is the horse that bad that you dont want to sell it to one of the dealers that advertises for horses with behavioural problems or sell it as a retired horse as a companion only?
You would get more for it and it would have another chance.
		
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Nothing to add. Thanks to the people in the real world for an informative thread.


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## martlin (9 November 2010)

amymay said:



			But that is entirely irrelevant.  If the OP wants a horse destroyed, it is none of anyone's business why.

They do not have to justify their actions or reasons to anyone!
		
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^^^ this, very much so.


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## SNORKEY (9 November 2010)

Fine, so why did everyone get so irate about giving it away as a companion when they dont even know if it's that dangerous to handle or not!
Why not just say, we dont know how dangerous it actually is so we cant comment on that.


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## Dolcé (9 November 2010)

sharon1959 said:



			Thanks.

Couldnt you offer it as a companion,so it will have another chance in life????? If I had my own land Id take him off your hands.
		
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Sharon, let me put a scenario to you:  You say you are a mother, well so am I and this is why I feel so strongly that OP is doing the right thing.  

You take on a horse that you know has problems, you send it to a specialist to cure the problems and break it for you, all is going well until suddenly, without warning, it attacks the person (very experienced) lunging it and takes, literally, a huge chunk of her arm off.  You then ignore all the advice of the vets and trainer to PTS and send to another, well thought of and very experienced, trainer.  Again all is going well until one day it launches an attack without warning and tries to kill said trainer, again literally, stamping all over him, he is rescued and hospitalised with horrendous injuries.  Still you ignore the advice given and move it to your own yard which is shared with another YO, you decide to put this horse in a stable next to the other guys teenage (13) liveries little mare, they leave the yard, eventually his business folds because no-one wants to be near this dangerous horse.  Suppose you were on this yard with your child, would you risk that one day this horse may attack and kill, or at least maim, your child.  This horse was dangerous on the ground, what makes you think you know better that the owner making the decision.  At what point does someone have the guts to make the right decision. Or, do you do what the owner did, try to sell it to a dealer to go to auction without mentioning it's problems, to be bought by someone like me for their own daughter.  OP is being responsible FGS, at least she isn't just passing it on to someone else!

And, to those who think OP shouldn't have posted, it is a fact of life and something that we should be able to discuss without getting sentimental.  Sometimes PTS, whatever means, IS the best for the horse.


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## Stinkbomb (9 November 2010)

kharber21 said:



			Hi, im not going to say anything against the post as everyone has different opions on it.
Is the horse that bad that you dont want to sell it to one of the dealers that advertises for horses with behavioural problems or sell it as a retired horse as a companion only?
You would get more for it and it would have another chance.
		
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Another chance to hurt somebody???

I must say admit im one of those persons totally against PTS a pony by any other methods than the vet. I could never send any of mine to the hunt or abbortoir. Thats just me. I do understand not everyone feels the same and i respect that. Im surprised actually how little money you can get for  ponies now at the meat man. I must commend the OP for considering PTS the pony if its dangerous, like kharber said you would get more money by selling it, but the OP obviously is concerned that no one else gets hurt by this pony. Not many would do that, they would sell on, make a fast buck and not give a ***** about what happened to anyone else.

Like is said id have the have it PTS by the vet, yes costing me money. but at least the OP is doing the most considerate thing and making sure noone else is hurt.


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## Maesfen (9 November 2010)

kharber21 said:



			Fine, so why did everyone get so irate about giving it away as a companion when they dont even know if it's that dangerous to handle or not!
Why not just say, we dont know how dangerous it actually is so we cant comment on that.
		
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Why can't we have a 'big sigh' smiley on here as this seems to have been said plenty of times before?

Because there would be a real chance that the horse could/would be passed on without information necessarily known about it which could cause an accident to happen.  It's human nature to try to see if something is broken or not.  If they tried it with this horse, that broken bit could be their neck.  Would you sleep at night knowing that was a possibility.  Better gone now before that happens.
That's why you don't pass on dangerous horses to anyone.


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## Amymay (9 November 2010)

Fine, so why did everyone get so irate about giving it away as a companion when they dont even know if it's that dangerous to handle or not!
		
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The OP has said it is dangerous.  Why would we question their judgement?

And as I posted earlier - tried all summer with my horse.  The homes just aren't there.

Putting a horse down is not a bad thing.

I wish those of you wearing rose tinted glasses would understand that.


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## Pipkin (9 November 2010)

The way i see it ; if a horse is a danger to itself and others....it should be 'disposed' of, if it can be helped...help it!!

There are far worse ways for horses to die than going to an abbatoir...take Spindles Farm for example... starve to death or get shot and die instantly??? which one is more humane? 

I`ve got nothing against abattoirs....at the end of the day meat is meat, I dont how ever condone the amount of TB`s that go there just because they dont win a race  http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/oct/01/horseracing.sport

OP well done for doing this and potentially saving someones life!

If a dog attacked and killed someone we have no qualms bout killing the dog


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## TicTac (9 November 2010)

amymay said:



			The OP has said it is dangerous.  Why would we question their judgement?

And as I posted earlier - tried all summer with my horse.  The homes just aren't there.

Putting a horse down is not a bad thing.

I wish those of you wearing rose tinted glasses would understand that.
		
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Agree, and I had to do the same many years ago with a horse who I couldn't re home for various reasons BUT. I had him PTS at home and then taken away. Not in it for the money and from the video's I have seen of ' Potters',  that is the last place I would consider sending my horse for it's final hours!


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## digitalangel (9 November 2010)

I believe places like Potters have their place and i have no problem with what they do.

I strongly believe dangerous horses should be PTS - the method of which should be entirely up to the owner and is noones business how they choose to do it....

If the horse was dangerous. if it wasnt and a companion home couldnt be found, that would make me very sad.


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## Kenzo (9 November 2010)

Horse needs destroying, if the owner gets a little bit in the back pocket what's the problem? to be fair it's peanuts anyway, considering how much it's costs to keep a horse in good care, why shouldn't the owner get a bit back for the inconvenience?

For example If I'd ploughed my heart, my soul and a hell of a lot of money into a horse only to find out I'd run out of options, that it was still a dangerous animal both at risk to it's self and the people around it, I doubt very much I'd want to go to the whole expense of getting the vet out have it put to sleep, having it cremated and then just to top it off, having it's god dam ashes sent back (to haunt me and remind me what a pain the backside it was) in an expensive wooden box for my mantel piece, put it that wa!!! (those of you that understand my humour will get where I'm coming from there) believe me I'm no heartless cow.

Another example seen as I'm on my little soapbox after reading this, Id rather see a lorry full of ex racers go to a fattening farm and then go off to be slaughtered in this country than see them sent round the sales being passed around from pillar to post and sold to either the wrong people or ruff ass dealers selling them on as riding horses, when in some cases there clearly not going to make the grade or have the time and the vast amounts of money put into them, the places some of these creatures end up and the states they get in, in my view is a far worse ordeal.

So to judge a responsible person for taking a dangerous horse to a slaughter house to be destroyed correctly yet making out that all their thinking about is the money, well its the most ridicules thing I've heard.

If someone came up to me and said that after all Id gone through, Id be speechless, talk about a huge slap across the face.

all about the money? if only it was.


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## nativetyponies (9 November 2010)

TicTac said:



			the video's I have seen of ' Potters',  that is the last place I would consider sending my horse for it's final hours!
		
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Animal Aid propaganda at it's best.


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## TicTac (9 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			Animal Aid propaganda at it's best.
		
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That's your opinion!


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## nativetyponies (9 November 2010)

TicTac said:



			That's your opinion!
		
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its a fact....

i've been to Potters..inside where they take the pony from you, where they process, the refridgeration unit..actually inside..

so yes, AA propaganda.


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## TicTac (9 November 2010)

Say's who?  Like I said that's just your opinion.


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## flyingfeet (9 November 2010)

Tic Tac - I watched the video of a wee grey pony at Potters - other than the annoying text of "Some childs loved pony etc etc " the video wasn't offensive at all 

Pony handled well, clean kill and much better than watching my liveries horse in real life get up and down from the lethal injection. Lurching and shuddering, plus horse not very impressed at massive injection as last human contact either...

This video made me feel happier at sending my horse off, as the handlers were so good and could not be faulted.


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## chestnut cob (9 November 2010)

Jen_Cots said:



			Tic Tac - I watched the video of a wee grey pony at Potters - other than the annoying text of "Some childs loved pony etc etc " the video wasn't offensive at all 

Pony handled well, clean kill and much better than watching my liveries horse in real life get up and down from the lethal injection. Lurching and shuddering, plus horse not very impressed at massive injection as last human contact either...

This video made me feel happier at sending my horse off, as the handlers were so good and could not be faulted.
		
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At the risk of upsetting the "antis", do you have a link to the video?


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## *hic* (9 November 2010)

TicTac said:



			Say's who?  Like I said that's just your opinion.
		
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And it's an opinion formed from real experience, not from watching a video put out by decidedly odd "animal lovers".


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## Amymay (9 November 2010)

from the video's I have seen of ' Potters', that is the last place I would consider sending my horse
		
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And that is your choice - as it is the OP's to send her horse there.

Seeing a horse destroyed is not pleasant - _but_ you need to view these things disspationately, in order to make a fair assessment of them.  And making a knee jerk reaction to a video you may have seen (possibly by Animal Aid) is not the best way to make a considered judgement.

If you have watched the Animal Aid video I think you've watched - then there was absolutely no reason to take issue with it - when viewed dispasionately.  The grey pony was handled professionaly and calmly - and was calm itself - with no sign of distress.


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## Double_choc_lab (9 November 2010)

I've just thought of a solution - put it in tandem driving  wasn't that a solution the other day on here!!

Agree with OP.  Sensible option far more awful things could happen to this dangerous animal.  I'm afraid too many fluffy people live in their "pink" sanitised world and need to get a grip on reality.


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## Sandstone1 (9 November 2010)

Just out of interest how many people have been inside such a slaughter house and seen the whole process including the death?
my worry is what goes on behind the scenes where no one sees what goes on.


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## TicTac (9 November 2010)

Jen_Cots said:



			Tic Tac - I watched the video of a wee grey pony at Potters - other than the annoying text of "Some childs loved pony etc etc " the video wasn't offensive at all 

Pony handled well, clean kill and much better than watching my liveries horse in real life get up and down from the lethal injection. Lurching and shuddering, plus horse not very impressed at massive injection as last human contact either...

This video made me feel happier at sending my horse off, as the handlers were so good and could not be faulted.
		
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What about the one with the injured horse? etc

Lets face it there is never going to be total agreement on a subject like this so I'll agree to differ.


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## Amymay (9 November 2010)

my worry is what goes on behind the scenes where no one sees what goes on.
		
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Once something is dead, really - what does it matter.

However, these places are very tightly regulated, and monitored.


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## martlin (9 November 2010)

itsmylife said:



			Just out of interest how many people have been inside such a slaughter house and seen the whole process including the death?
my worry is what goes on behind the scenes where no one sees what goes on.
		
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I haven't been to see slaughter of horses, but visit regularly with livestock.


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## Amymay (9 November 2010)

TicTac said:



			What about the one with the injured horse? etc

Lets face it there is never going to be total agreement on a subject like this so I'll agree to differ.
		
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So, Tic Tac, what is the alternative that you would like to put forward?  Are you making a case that there should be no abbatoires for horses?


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## Zebedee (9 November 2010)

jemima_too said:



			And it's an opinion formed from real experience, not from watching a video put out by decidedly odd "animal lovers".
		
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Even better than an informed opinion, it's FACT. I've been to Potters with horses over the years as well & it's a very professional organisation from start to finish.

Tic Tac did you know for instance that trainee slaughtermen/women are kicked off the training course if they show any sign of 'enjoying' the task, or if they aren't competent animal handlers?

No, I don't expect you did, because you're far happier believing the kind of 
bull that AA pedal to people like you. To be honest you've no real right to an opinion because you've no personal experience to base it on, unlike nativeponies,myself & several other who have.


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## Sandstone1 (9 November 2010)

amymay said:



			Once something is dead, really - what does it matter.

However, these places are very tightly regulated, and monitored.
		
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I dont mean after its dead I mean before and during the sllaughter.


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## Elliegazzellie (9 November 2010)

I think this thread should be closed now as OP has got the answer they origionally wanted and now it's just turned into a pointless debate that is going round and around in circles! I think some people posting on here are doing so just to get a reaction- talking about horses as just pointless pieces of meat is going to cause upset to most readers and therefore cause somewhat of an uproar. 
I personally believe that all my horses has forever homes and so would personally try every option in the book to provide the horse a home, whether it meant it could be ridden or not. If for some reason my horse had to be pts it would be done by a vet in the comfort of his own home and familiar surroundings. No body can begin to imagine the fear that animals feel whilst in a slaughter house waiting for their fate. They know whats about to happen and that's no way for a horse to live its last moments. 

Anyway I think this thread should be closed now, it seems nothing out there will change OP's mind and it's just turning into a petty squabble.


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## Amymay (9 November 2010)

and now it's just turned into a pointless debate that is going round and around in circles!
		
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It hasn't in any way turned in to a pointless debate.

No discussion on this sort of issue is pointless.  It's very informative - especially to those who are actually uninformed......


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## Pipkin (9 November 2010)

Elliegazzellie said:



			Anyway I think this thread should be closed now, it seems nothing out there will change OP's mind and it's just turning into a petty squabble.
		
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Really?

I think this is quite possibly one of the more grown up debates I`ve seen on here in a while....no swearing...no rants at each other.... closing a thread that upsets a few people is not the answer...

Arguments for and against have been given..... its not a whole load of he said / she said...people have actually been to abattoirs and sharing their experience! The people who are against are often the ones with no experience of it and think all ponies should live in fluffy bunny land etc  

I used to be totally against slaughtering horses....after seeing what some people can do to them i often think slaughter is the only way out.... I`ve seen a horse being given a lethal injection....I watched that horse take 30 minutes to die...spasm in pain and prompt everyone involved into tears!!!!


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## Luci07 (9 November 2010)

Its not pointless. I for one have learnt an awful lot. I have my personal choices and have gone down the cremation route previously. However, that horse was a long time companion, owned for over 20 years and was always going to be PTS in that manner - I "owed" him. However, for a horse/pony that is dangerous  I do not have any such sympathies and do think it is odd that it was suggested that pony should be sold on as a companion. I have found this thread to be highly informative and can I just point out - the amount of discussion shared would not have been gained by simply googling or calling the abbatoirs. Good thread and made for a lot of thought so THANK YOU OP and those who have placed rational and infornative posts up!


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## *hic* (9 November 2010)

Elliegazzellie said:



			They know whats about to happen and that's no way for a horse to live its last moments.
		
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Horses are not normally rated as more intelligent than pigs. My last four pigs were shot one at a time behind a barrier preventing the remaining pigs from seeing what was going on. As each pig was removed and shot the remaining pigs jumped slightly at the sound of the gun and then carried on what they were doing - dozing in the straw. We had to wake them up to get the next one behind the barrier - a matter of four feet from her sisters. None of them were stressed at all or worried about anything. Even when they were moved into the pen where a sister had just been killed and only rudimentary cleaning had been carried out they were not worried or upset, they were more interested in rootling through the new straw on the ground.

Why would you assume that horses have any idea of what is going to happen when pigs don't even at such close quarters.

Oh and btw I'm not posting to wind anyone up, rather to educate the large number of people who don't know what happens when an animal is killed or who have wrong beliefs put in their heads by "animal welfare" propaganda. The vast number of people who work killing animals have a great empathy with them. They need to have, humans can only "control" these large beasts by their co-operation. An upset animal is uncontrollable and dangerous.


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## MosMum (9 November 2010)

I have read this entire thread out of interest.

I have viewed a few videos, although I concur that's not adequate evidence to base a blanket opinion on. 

My opinion won't be popular. 

Apart from a white pony who had clearly been beaten (black eye, etc) and a starved horse (which I can't say was starved before or after the slaughter house?), all the horses looked healthy enough, ears forward, attentive and walking without force willingly.

However, the photos of how some of the horses ended up there (in races/jumping comps) I found incredibly sad. Accidents happen, but I dare say their deaths were far less painful than the time between incurring those horrific injuries and arriving at the slaughter house. 

As for the meat pictures, being someone who grew up in Montana and has gutted elk, deer, seen bear and moose being done, once the animal is dead, its all meat to me.


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## Amymay (9 November 2010)

However, the photos of how some of the horses ended up there (in races/jumping comps) I found incredibly sad.
		
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Yes, I would agree.


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## rosie fronfelen (9 November 2010)

martlin said:



			Do YOU know your local horse abattoir?
Seeing as there are only 2 in the country...
		
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We have an abbatoir 11 miles away, we sent a horse there a few years back.


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## Leaf (9 November 2010)

Tic Tac did you know for instance that trainee slaughtermen/women are kicked off the training course if they show any sign of 'enjoying' the task, or if they aren't competent animal handlers?

No, I don't expect you did, because you're far happier believing the kind of 
bull that AA pedal to people like you. To be honest you've no real right to an opinion because you've no personal experience to base it on, unlike nativeponies,myself & several other who have.[/QUOTE]

in an ideal world but sadly not true in all cases.http://www.farmersguardian.com/home...ed-of-unbearable-cruelty-closes/33811.article 
I am very pro having CCTV in all slaughterhouses so the sadists are found out. For the record I farm sheep for dairy and meat but I only send my animals to one slaughterhouse as I just do not trust the very big commercial ones.


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## vixann (9 November 2010)

PS Last year I had my lovely (well quite bitchy but only to ppl who she didn't like!) big young mare put down - She wouldn't die - the vet said she had never seen anything like it and usually had to use a max of 2 bottles (of pentobarb or wateva it was) and that was for natives - she was a tb x wb and took 3 full bottles and around 20 mins of gasping and trying to get up, cutting her head open and it was an awful experience. not great considering she didnt like vets and needles and was even sedated i/m before we began. - Not always the best way to go but you only generally find these things out wen u have experienced them yourself.


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## Zebedee (9 November 2010)

I have a cousin who is a butcher turned slaughterman. He said that during training they were watched like hawks, & that two who were training alongside him were asked to leave due to 'attitude issues'. He said he was glad that they were asked to go, because they were the arsey type who revelled in what they were doing, & who treated it as some big ego trip.
FWIW though I agree that CCTV should be installed in slaughterhouses.


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## Elliegazzellie (9 November 2010)

Ayla84 said:



			The people who are against are often the ones with no experience of it and think all ponies should live in fluffy bunny land etc  

I used to be totally against slaughtering horses....after seeing what some people can do to them i often think slaughter is the only way out.... I`ve seen a horse being given a lethal injection....I watched that horse take 30 minutes to die...spasm in pain and prompt everyone involved into tears!!!!
		
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I don't think you should generalise everyone like this, it is patronising and unfair especially as you don't even know us. 

Plus you don't need to use lethal injection to pts a horse at home. I just think it is less stressful to pts at home rather than transporting the animal to an unknown place where death is in the air. Just like if my dog needed putting to sleep it would be done in our home where he is happiest. 

signing off from fluffy bunny land


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## riding_high (9 November 2010)

i'm not against abbatoirs or the hunt doing the deed BUT my personal choice is for my own horses to be pts by injection in it's own environment. i couldn't send my horse to an abbatoir or for it to be shot however i understand and accept that everyone is different and they are entitled to choose whichever method they want when it comes down to things.
it doesn't mean we love our horses any less/more/different because we don't all do the same thing at the end.


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## Ellies_mum2 (9 November 2010)

Elliegazzellie said:



			I think this thread should be closed now as OP has got the answer they origionally wanted and now it's just turned into a pointless debate that is going round and around in circles! I think some people posting on here are doing so just to get a reaction- talking about horses as just pointless pieces of meat is going to cause upset to most readers and therefore cause somewhat of an uproar. 
I personally believe that all my horses has forever homes and so would personally try every option in the book to provide the horse a home, whether it meant it could be ridden or not. If for some reason my horse had to be pts it would be done by a vet in the comfort of his own home and familiar surroundings. No body can begin to imagine the fear that animals feel whilst in a slaughter house waiting for their fate. They know whats about to happen and that's no way for a horse to live its last moments. 

Anyway I think this thread should be closed now, it seems nothing out there will change OP's mind and it's just turning into a petty squabble.
		
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Hmmm I actually find this post slightly arrogant in assuming how people are viewing this thread.

I for one don't think it is pointless. I have learnt things from this thread that I would normally have had no other way of finding out until I needed it. I've never had an animal pts and am new to horse owning (18 mths) but options are something I think all horse owners need to be aware of. 

For those who have provided an insight to places like Potter, thank you


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## Caz89 (9 November 2010)

"As we walked through the holding pen, a gunshot went off. Two young thoroughbreds jumped and began biting each other's necks, which were covered in red welts"

Can I suggest that you take the time to read the link .... http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/oct/01/horseracing.sport 

People who say "I can't afford to have the horse pts" quite simply shouldn't have a horse if you arn't able to meet the needs of it. We all know a time will come when they will need to be pts or they die and should be prepared financially and mentally. When your family members get old, your dogs and cats, your husband/wife will you send them to like a concentration camp?? Queing to die which is what these horses do! I'm not saying it's wrong to put horses down if that's the last route but after reading the above link It makes me feel sick that people are naive enough to think that horses cannot sense death and danger especially when it happens so close to the live horses  If they are going to do it can't one horse be taken at a time to a seperate shooting area far away from the live animals ? No because this is to much hassle for them as they are going to die anyway


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## Fairynuff (9 November 2010)

martlin said:



			I haven't 
TBH crossing with a Charolaix gives 2 benefits:
they retain their placidity and
they're passported as Charolaix X, which brings better price per kilo in the ring... sad as it sounds, the British buyers are not interested in paying good money for British breeds of cattle

Aren't salers fairly large and horned? That would be 2 nonos for me...
		
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http://www.thecattlesite.com/breeds/beef/15/salers/overview

Ive heard that they are sane enough to work with and are incredibly easy calfers. When crossed with Charlies, they always produce blondes. Apart from horses and cats, Im also a cattle freak!


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## *hic* (9 November 2010)

Caz89 said:



			It makes me feel sick that people are naive enough to think that horses cannot sense death and danger especially when it happens so close to the live horses
		
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And your experience of this is???  Or of any animals being killed.


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## nativetyponies (9 November 2010)

TicTac said:



			What about the one with the injured horse? etc

Lets face it there is never going to be total agreement on a subject like this so I'll agree to differ.
		
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the chestnut down on the floor?

she had collapsed..and because of DEFRA regulations, sadly had to wait until a qualified Slaughterman could come to the plant, open up and dispatch her.

nothing sinister, just following DEFRA regs


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## Fairynuff (9 November 2010)

pastie2 said:



			I dont doubt for one moment that the OP is making the right decision. So why not just get on with it, why make an issue on this forum about the price per kilo. To me it is a post designed to cause confrontation. Anyone with an ounce of sense will put a dangerous horse down, just that most people dont really advertise the fact.[/QUOTE

you took the words right out of my mouth Pastie! Well said.
		
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## Caz89 (9 November 2010)

jemima_too said:



			And your experience of this is???  Or of any animals being killed.
		
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One of the horses had to be put down a few years back and I have never seen all the horses soo worked up.... they all looked genuinly upset and terrified even the calmest of horses. I just don't think it's right to do it so close to the live horses.


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## *hic* (9 November 2010)

Caz89 said:



			"As we walked through the holding pen, a gunshot went off. Two young thoroughbreds jumped and began biting each other's necks, which were covered in red welts"

Can I suggest that you take the time to read the link .... http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/oct/01/horseracing.sport

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How would the necks be covered in red welts? You can't see the colour of "welts through fur on most TBs as they are dark coloured. You might be able to see a raised welt but that's not what the article says. If the rest of the reporting is similarly accurate . .


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## Pipkin (9 November 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			We have an abbatoir 11 miles away, we sent a horse there a few years back.
		
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isnt there one in Penclawdd?


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## nativetyponies (9 November 2010)

itsmylife said:



			Just out of interest how many people have been inside such a slaughter house and seen the whole process including the death?
my worry is what goes on behind the scenes where no one sees what goes on.
		
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i have.

what do you want to know?


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## dingle12 (9 November 2010)

OP i see your west yorkshire have you rand Crowthers at all? they are not far from emily mast, you can take the pony there or have them come to you

Yorkshire Equine Crematorium

    Tel No: 01924 840752. Mob No: 07801 294327

    Cremations. Funeral Service. Nationwide collection.

Can i just ask why is it crazy just out of intrest


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## Fellewell (9 November 2010)

Usually 'what's best for the horse' involves the owner bearing a loss financially. Responsible people would allow for this loss before buying a horse in the first place. These horses would then be euthanased and spared the indignity of going round and round the system for stupid money. Then people would have to pay proper prices for decent stock.


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## *hic* (9 November 2010)

Caz89 said:



			One of the horses had to be put down a few years back and I have never seen all the horses soo worked up.... they all looked genuinly upset and terrified even the calmest of horses. I just don't think it's right to do it so close to the live horses. 

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In that case I'd be of the opinion that the handlers of the horses were to blame for being stressed and upset and transferring it to the other horses. The horses may jump from a gunshot but they honestly don't know what has happened to one of their number. If you leave a dead horse in the field for it's companions to "say goodbye" they don't freak out, they walk over calmly to see why their friend is lying down.


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## Sandstone1 (9 November 2010)

No one seen the whole process with a horse at one of these slaughter houses then? I do mean from the horse arriving to its death.
I have seen horses die by injection and of natural causes.
Several people have said they have seen what goes on but no one seems to have seen the whole thing.
I dont mean just dropping off the horse and leaving it which to me is a cop out.
I think you owe it to your horse to be with it at the end.
I really dont think unless you have seen a horse killed at a slaughter house you can say its its a good or bad way to go.


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## nativetyponies (9 November 2010)

itsmylife said:



			No one seen the whole process with a horse at one of these slaughter houses then? I do mean from the horse arriving to its death.
I have seen horses die by injection and of natural causes.
Several people have said they have seen what goes on but no one seems to have seen the whole thing.
I dont mean just dropping off the horse and leaving it which to me is a cop out.
I think you owe it to your horse to be with it at the end.
I really dont think unless you have seen a horse killed at a slaughter house you can say its its a good or bad way to go.
		
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i've replied


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## Caz89 (9 November 2010)

jemima_too said:



			How would the necks be covered in red welts? You can't see the colour of "welts through fur on most TBs as they are dark coloured. You might be able to see a raised welt but that's not what the article says. If the rest of the reporting is similarly accurate . .
		
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I couldn't say as I didn't write the report. It may well be inaccurate and not true what was written but I personally wouldn't want to take the risk with mine but that's just my opinion 

The horses being worked up I don't think you can blame the handlers. I don't want to get into an argument we all have our diff opinions and I respect others I just personally dont like it


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## applecart14 (9 November 2010)

itsmylife said:



			No one seen the whole process with a horse at one of these slaughter houses then? I do mean from the horse arriving to its death.
I have seen horses die by injection and of natural causes.
Several people have said they have seen what goes on but no one seems to have seen the whole thing.
I dont mean just dropping off the horse and leaving it which to me is a cop out.
I think you owe it to your horse to be with it at the end.
I really dont think unless you have seen a horse killed at a slaughter house you can say its its a good or bad way to go.
		
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I wouldn't want my horse to go that way.  I would move heaven and earth for a peaceful, pain free and dignified way for my horse to leave this world and if that meant being in debt to do it I would.  Why anyone would take a horse to an abbatoir is beyond me.  I feel sorry for the pony involved.  There is very often a solution to a problem horse/pony and rarely is a horse downright dangerous/evil.  But the OP has made up her mind and in my opinion is trying to justify her actions by coming on this site.


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## applecart14 (9 November 2010)

jemima_too said:



			In that case I'd be of the opinion that the handlers of the horses were to blame for being stressed and upset and transferring it to the other horses. The horses may jump from a gunshot but they honestly don't know what has happened to one of their number. If you leave a dead horse in the field for it's companions to "say goodbye" they don't freak out, they walk over calmly to see why their friend is lying down.
		
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I know someone who had a group of horse pts by humane captive bolt/pistol and they were all in adjoining stables.  They said none of the horses were frightened or alarmed at what had happened to the horses before them.  They just didn't associate what had happened with what was going to happen to them. Thats what I was told anyway.  But still don't like to think my horse would be subject to that.


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## Aces_High (9 November 2010)

I am not quite sure where to begin here but I am shocked by a lot of "horse lovers" views which have come across on this thread.  Surely a responsible horse owner is allowed to ask the simple question of obtaining a phone number for an abattoir which slaughters horses.  Who in their right mind would want to see any animal either cause danger to a human being (human life is worth more than any animal) or it being passed from pillar to post.  I know there are probably a lot of younger people on this forum who think the idea of a horse being slaughtered as deplorable but it is a fact of life.  If you are a meat eater, have leather tack, wear leather shoes - think for a second as to how you have got this.  Due to an animal being slaughtered.  Be it a cow, sheep, horse etc. you accept it to wear leather and eat meat, so accept that horses will and do face the same fate.  I personally would never pay for a companion horse if I needed one.  I see it that I am doing someone a favour by having their unwanted horse.  Therefore that goes out of the window for the people who think the OP should sell it as a companion or to a Natural Horse person. (NH to me = National Hunt!)  You also completley contradict yourselves by saying that the OP is wrong for wanting money from the animal yet could get more selling it as a companion or to a Natural Horsemanship person.  Man Up and get over it.  A dangerous or unwanted or sick animal is FAR BETTER off being sent to an abattoir to be disposed of in a kind and humane manner.  I think it should be compulsory for everyone to see how these places work and how the animals are treated.  We are sending 3 of our sheep for slaughter in the next week or so and I would like to go but unfortunatly it's not worked out.  I am actually seething so my post may be a litle jiggled.  I am pleased I am not a horse owned by a lot of people who have posted here giving the OP a hard time.  Oh and to finish off who are you to judge any personal circumstances this person may have come across - that could also be part of the equation.  I have so much more to add but at this point I am biting my tounge!


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## Pipkin (9 November 2010)

Elliegazzellie said:



			I don't think you should generalise everyone like this, it is patronising and unfair especially as you don't even know us. 

Plus you don't need to use lethal injection to pts a horse at home. I just think it is less stressful to pts at home rather than transporting the animal to an unknown place where death is in the air. Just like if my dog needed putting to sleep it would be done in our home where he is happiest. 

signing off from fluffy bunny land

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Hence the word _often_... not all 

if your dog broke a leg was in extreme pain, you had taken him to the vet and he had to be put down there and then you would take him home because he`s happy there??? You`d put him through pain for longer just to keep him happy?...thats unfair.

The majority of these horses dont have a home to be PTS. They're bought from sales...dumped from racing/jumping yards...deemed as useless and quite often homeless. Some people cant afford for local hunt to do it...cant afford to pay sky high prices vets charge.... the horses are going back into the food chain...circle of life. yada yada

They cant all be saved...I`ve learnt that

Nobody seems to have a problem with slaughtering cows, sheep...cute lambs...thats "natural"  but god forbid slaughter a horse that could potentially kill!


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## Caz89 (9 November 2010)

applecart14 said:



			I wouldn't want my horse to go that way.  I would move heaven and earth for a peaceful, pain free and dignified way for my horse to leave this world and if that meant being in debt to do it I would.  Why anyone would take a horse to an abbatoir is beyond me.  I feel sorry for the pony involved.  There is very often a solution to a problem horse/pony and rarely is a horse downright dangerous/evil.  But the OP has made up her mind and in my opinion is trying to justify her actions by coming on this site.
		
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here here!


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## Sandstone1 (9 November 2010)

Sorry Nativeponies just saw your reply. My worry would be horses standing around waiting to die and seeing other horses die in front of them.
I imagine horses pennd up waiting for hours and getting distressed.
I cant agree that horses dont sense death as I have seen a pony react to the death of his field mate.
Im not for or against this method of pts as ive never seen it but I hate the thought of animals lined up waiting to die.


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## Slightly Foxed (9 November 2010)

Just Googled Potters and got this:

"With over 50 years experience, we offer a caring, calm, effective service at our Taunton abattoir. We pay for the animal, and by dealing direct you can be sure that the job has been done well. We also offer a nationwide collection service, providing a discrete disposal method for equines direct from your stables.

LJ Potter (SW)Ltd is an ILPH Approved Abattoir operator

Please call, fax or email for further information."

 email friend Tel: 01761 221730 stephen@pottersabattoir.co.uk


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## Elliegazzellie (9 November 2010)

Caz89 said:



			One of the horses had to be put down a few years back and I have never seen all the horses soo worked up.... they all looked genuinly upset and terrified even the calmest of horses. I just don't think it's right to do it so close to the live horses. 

Click to expand...


Same here. It was very suprising how they all acted. 
When our old mare fell down a ditch and got stuck out of sight the only reason we realised was because the other ponies in the field raised our attention by galloping up and down the field neighing to and from where the mare was stuck. One of the big cobs was also in the ditch with the mare and was trying to push her to get her to stand up. It was really quite an extrodinary thing to see how the herd all worked together. When we got to the mare and untangled her we were pushing her to try and get her to stand up again and all the 10 horses were stood along side the ditch watching and wickering.Luckily we finally got her to stand up, but if it wasn't for the horses raising the alarm she would have been there much longer. 
Sometime horses are cleverer than they are given credit for.


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## nativetyponies (9 November 2010)

itsmylife said:



			Sorry Nativeponies just saw your reply. My worry would be horses standing around waiting to die and seeing other horses die in front of them.
I imagine horses pennd up waiting for hours and getting distressed.
I cant agree that horses dont sense death as I have seen a pony react to the death of his field mate.
Im not for or against this method of pts as ive never seen it but I hate the thought of animals lined up waiting to die.
		
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this is how it is....

imagine a large farmyard..huge dutch barn on one side and a large enclosed barn on the other...horses in dutch barn in "lairage" are the ones that are bought by Abattoir operater..all are under cover, all are eating hay..

members of the public bring theirs into yard by lorry/trailer. these are processed first..they are unloaded, passports are checked in by ministry, stamped as "fit for slaughter"..horse is taken inside enclosed barn..one at a time..barn door is shut..gone on the B of Bang..headcollar is returned to owner..they drive away..next in line goes through the same process until all of Joe Publics horses have been dealt with..hours for this are 8.30am - 1.30pm on a wednesday only.

then those in lairaige, who have been eating hay all morning, are processed..one at a time..not one see's the demise of its predecessor..

as for the process inside the closed barn..do you want me to tell you how that works as well?


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## MosMum (9 November 2010)

Again, having not been to one of these places I can't comment on good practice, however...

I think its fantastic that human beings are capable of theory of mind and empathy, and that our lives in the Western World have been incredibly protected, nurturing and endorsing of life _in most cases_.

However lets not forget that death is natural, and how that occurs is the only real question here. If these horses were wild, and got injured or sick, or was old or young, in Montana a pack of wolves would chase them, panic them, attack from the croup/legs, drag them down, exhaust them and then finally get a death grip on the neck and suffocate them. Usually the animal would still be alive when it is disemboweled. Sometimes, coyotes and bears will risk a convenient attack, too. 

Nature isn't kind. Sometimes, humans can be even less kind, and I'm not for a minute saying cruelty doesn't happen at slaughter houses. If teachers being hired to educate our children manage to slip through the net and be predators, doubtlessly there have been instances of sick people working at slaughter houses, too. And doubtlessly there are many more who OWN the horses who end up in slaughter horses. Over all, a bullet is a kinder death than is faced by many, many animals, including horses, world wide. In many countries, a bullet is considered too expensive to waste on a horse.


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## Amymay (9 November 2010)

Caz89 said:



			One of the horses had to be put down a few years back and I have never seen all the horses soo worked up.... they all looked genuinly upset and terrified even the calmest of horses. I just don't think it's right to do it so close to the live horses. 

Click to expand...

Well, that's most unusual.

The horses at my yard didn't bat an eye lid when my horse was put down recently.  

But as you know, it only takes one horse to wind the others up - event the calmest.


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## Fairynuff (9 November 2010)

re the 'lethal injection'...those of you who claim to have witnessed prolonged and agonising deaths obviously have vets who are not carrying out the euthanisation properly. All horses in Italy are euthanised via injection unless they are entering the meat chain. Vets here are legally required to   1, sedate the horse.  2, anaesthetize the horse and 3, only when horse is FULLY unconcious, administer the 'lethal injection'. All those euthanised here on my yard and in the 2 clinics Ive worked in, were mainlined so had only 1 needle inserted and ALL died peacefully and quickly. The product used for the actual 'killing' is called 'Tanax' and is composed of 3 different 'drugs'. One acts as a narcotic and causes paralysis to the respiratory centre, the second one acts on the muscles involved with breathing (paralysing them) and the third is a local anaesthetic which, in horses makes no diff as they are already unconscious, but seemingly is important in small animals as there is no duty to anaesthetize them before using Tanax (I have no idea why and find it incongruous!). Maybe its about time that GB vets changed their methods of LJ euthanising if all these horses are having such horrific deaths at their hands.


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## Elliegazzellie (9 November 2010)

Ayla84 said:



			Hence the word _often_... not all 

if your dog broke a leg was in extreme pain, you had taken him to the vet and he had to be put down there and then you would take him home because he`s happy there??? You`d put him through pain for longer just to keep him happy?...thats unfair.


Nobody seems to have a problem with slaughtering cows, sheep...cute lambs...thats "natural"  but god forbid slaughter a horse that could potentially kill!
		
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Well obviously not because thats silly, but what we're talking about is a perfectly healthy animal that is being killed due to behavioural issues and therefore not an emergency case such as a broken leg. 

I don't like the idea of any healthy animal being slaughtered which is why I chose to be a veggie and have been for 16 years. I'd rather not go into that though cause it'll only spark up a silly animal activist arguement.


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## Amymay (9 November 2010)

I'd rather not go into that though cause it'll only spark up a silly animal activist arguement
		
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I'd say there were some pretty strong and defendable reasons to be a vegetarian, actually.

But it's an interesting idea, that no healthy animal should be put down - or pet.

How then, hypothetically, would you propose that the owner of a dangerous horse proceed?  Assuming that they have all the necessary skills themselves to try and rehabilitate that animal - and have tried to do so.


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## spaniel (9 November 2010)

A plea to those fluffies and non fluffies who have no ACTUAL experience of places like Potters......READ NATIVEPONIES POSTS  and if you want to ask a question ASK!!!


It is highly frustrating that there are so many hysterical pre concieved ideas about what happens at Potters and Turners and you have the perfect opportunity not only to educate yourselves but potentially put your minds at rest because,  dispite what you think at the moment,  you may well find you need to use their services in the future.


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## Sandstone1 (9 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			this is how it is....

imagine a large farmyard..huge dutch barn on one side and a large enclosed barn on the other...horses in dutch barn in "lairage" are the ones that are bought by Abattoir operater..all are under cover, all are eating hay..

members of the public bring theirs into yard by lorry/trailer. these are processed first..they are unloaded, passports are checked in by ministry, stamped as "fit for slaughter"..horse is taken inside enclosed barn..one at a time..barn door is shut..gone on the B of Bang..headcollar is returned to owner..they drive away..next in line goes through the same process until all of Joe Publics horses have been dealt with..hours for this are 8.30am - 1.30pm on a wednesday only.

then those in lairaige, who have been eating hay all morning, are processed..one at a time..not one see's the demise of its predecessor..

as for the process inside the closed barn..do you want me to tell you how that works as well?
		
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Thank you for your reply.
I wrote a long reply but somehow lost it but Im glad the other horses dont see the one being shot. Im aware of the process in shooting a horse thanks, just hope its done quickly.
I have had a bad experience of the injection method and was very upset by it but it was the vet that messed that up.
I hope none of mine ever up up in a slaughterhouse but I know there is a need for such places but would like to see cctv in all of them.
Horses do understand death and are upset by it i have seen it for myself so wont be told otherwise. Unless the over breeding of horses and ponies stops placs like will be busy.


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## turkana (9 November 2010)

I'm surprised to see replies from people who've seen horses getting upset when a horse has been put down near by.
My mare was put down in May, she was down in the stable, we tried to get her up but she wasn't budging, we didn't want to distress her anymore than necessary so she was shot in the barn & then dragged out in front of several other horses.
MY OH was with her at the end & she was shot by the man from the Grafton hunt, according to my OH the other horses took no notice. I can only assume it was because neither man was upset by their rather nasty task & dealt with the matter quickly & calmly.
The horse opposite her stable was only a few feet away from the action, he was in an open fronted pen so could see everything, he's a very nervous & wimpy tb & he wasn't bothered at all.
The lorry that the came to take her way already had 2 dead horses in it, it was obviously parked up close & again no horses were upset by being being so near to dead bodies.


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## spaniel (9 November 2010)

Animals do NOT have the same emotional reaction as humans do to death and in our own past history the idea of dying was not viewed by us in the same way as most see it now.  Death is just a part of life to an animal and what tends to make horses (and others) distressed is the 'disappearance' of a herd or pack member.   Its proven and I have also seen this myself that animals are much more settled with a 'loss' if they can see the body of the animal that has died.  If there is hysteria amongst them it does tend to emanate from the human body language and reaction.


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## Pipkin (9 November 2010)

Elliegazzellie said:



			Well obviously not because thats silly, but what we're talking about is a perfectly healthy animal that is being killed due to behavioural issues and therefore not an emergency case such as a broken leg. 

I don't like the idea of any healthy animal being slaughtered which is why I chose to be a veggie and have been for 16 years. I'd rather not go into that though cause it'll only spark up a silly animal activist arguement. 

Click to expand...



Yes but the healthy horse is a danger its kill or be killed...if he was sent to the hunt to be pts then he`d suffer the same thing..he`d be shot and fed to the dogs... abattoir..shot and fed to dogs...


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## TicTac (9 November 2010)

vixann said:



			PS Last year I had my lovely (well quite bitchy but only to ppl who she didn't like!) big young mare put down - She wouldn't die - the vet said she had never seen anything like it and usually had to use a max of 2 bottles (of pentobarb or wateva it was) and that was for natives - she was a tb x wb and took 3 full bottles and around 20 mins of gasping and trying to get up, cutting her head open and it was an awful experience. not great considering she didnt like vets and needles and was even sedated i/m before we began. - Not always the best way to go but you only generally find these things out wen u have experienced them yourself.
		
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And now you have another ' difficult ' horse to get rid of?


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## TicTac (9 November 2010)

amymay said:



			So, Tic Tac, what is the alternative that you would like to put forward?  Are you making a case that there should be no abbatoires for horses?
		
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Don't be silly and don't take my view out of context.


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## Over2You (9 November 2010)

TicTac said:



			And now you have another ' difficult ' horse to get rid of?
		
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Yep. *DON'T* understand it - *KILL* it. *MUST* be dangerous - *KILL* it. *MIGHT* have a brain tumour - *KILL* it. 

What kind of a world is it when we don't give a second thought to getting rid of a sentient being as if it were a carton of milk past its best before date.


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## vixann (9 November 2010)

TicTac said:



			And now you have another ' difficult ' horse to get rid of?
		
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I never said she was difficult!! she was a bitch to ppl she didnt like - ppl who were nervous around her but all in all she was a fab horse -  she was pts due to 1. a fractured sesamoid bine which would never heal and never be cured by surgery so she was put in field to rest for 18 month to see what happened and then 2. a few months later she went through the fence and ripped all the skin and muscle from her hind leg - dont try and make out i dont know what I am doing!!! - and dont judge.


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## vixann (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			Yep. *DON'T* understand it - *KILL* it. *MUST* be dangerous - *KILL* it. *MIGHT* have a brain tumour - *KILL* it. 

What kind of a world is it when we don't give a second thought to getting rid of a sentient being as if it were a carton of milk past its best before date.
		
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err read below - Yes I will kill the pony unless you want it?? Good luck getting anywhere near it to be able to safely lead him without him striking you with front legs, biting you or turning kick you. I know.... ill carry on with him and accidently let him go?? maybe he will run off and injure someone in his way? maybe sum1 will catch him for me and he will attack them too?? oh think of all the glorious possibilities


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## Bertthefrog (9 November 2010)

Caz89 said:



			"As we walked through the holding pen, a gunshot went off. Two young thoroughbreds jumped and began biting each other's necks, which were covered in red welts"

Can I suggest that you take the time to read the link .... http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/oct/01/horseracing.sport 

People who say "I can't afford to have the horse pts" quite simply shouldn't have a horse if you arn't able to meet the needs of it. We all know a time will come when they will need to be pts or they die and should be prepared financially and mentally. When your family members get old, your dogs and cats, your husband/wife will you send them to like a concentration camp?? Queing to die which is what these horses do! I'm not saying it's wrong to put horses down if that's the last route but after reading the above link It makes me feel sick that people are naive enough to think that horses cannot sense death and danger especially when it happens so close to the live horses  If they are going to do it can't one horse be taken at a time to a seperate shooting area far away from the live animals ? No because this is to much hassle for them as they are going to die anyway 

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Of course horses "sense death" - they are prey animals - they get eaten in the wild - therefore anything "new" is viewed as a potential "death" threat and hence they flee from it.

Rustling leaf - eek, run away.
The umbrella brandished by an OAP - eek, run away.
The triangular drain cover - eek, run way.
The traffic cone marking roadworks - eek, run away.
The dark, scary corner in the indoor school - eek, run away.
(Spies human the size of a small house heading their way with tack) - eek, run away.....

All survival instincts.

At Turners - holding pens in building as you walk in house horses waiting to dry off before they can be put down. The horses, individually are taken through to the next, enclosed area, to be shot. The horses in the pens do not bat an eyelid at the gunshots, they are perfectly content. I have not seen "terrified horses aware they are about to die" - and the ones I have taken have walked in quite happily.

Horses are not capable of thinking - "Hang on a minute - two legged horse upset, have read notice on wall, have a feeling my death is impending. Bugger - had better warn the others." - they don't think like that...... Grr.

They may be nervous of new people, smells ( and no - the abbattoirs DO NOT smell of blood - they are immaculate), places or pick up on vibes from an anxious or upset owner - but no worse that they would do if they were arriving at a new yard, or first time competition.

.....And relax......


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## Jim Moriarty (9 November 2010)

Why is it so difficult for so many on this forum to read, understand, appreciate, accept, and comply with the simple request of an OP;




			This wont be a popular post and *I don't want peoples opinions please if you are going to say the usual rubbish*

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... and yet the same old same old is regurgitated once more...


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## flyingfeet (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			Yep. *DON'T* understand it - *KILL* it. *MUST* be dangerous - *KILL* it. *MIGHT* have a brain tumour - *KILL* it. 

What kind of a world is it when we don't give a second thought to getting rid of a sentient being as if it were a carton of milk past its best before date.
		
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Having had my sister squashed by a horse with a suspected brain tumour / aneurysm *DO NOT JOKE*. This put her in a wheel chair for a while and may have impacted her fertility. 

We had a healthy 5 year old put down as she went through fences and had no self preservation when going through fits

We could have sold her for thousands if we lied, or sold as a broodmare to breed more nutters / or become dangerous to handle

If you cannot handle the decision of when to KILL a horse, don't own one please.


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## Ted's mum (9 November 2010)

Jen_Cots said:



			Having had my sister squashed by a horse with a suspected brain tumour / aneurysm *DO NOT JOKE*. This put her in a wheel chair for a while and may have impacted her fertility. 

We had a healthy 5 year old put down as she went through fences and had no self preservation when going through fits

We could have sold her for thousands if we lied, or sold as a broodmare to breed more nutters / or become dangerous to handle

If you cannot handle the decision of when to KILL a horse, don't own one please. 

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well said!


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## Over2You (9 November 2010)

Ayla84 said:



			There are far worse ways for horses to die than going to an abbatoir...take Spindles Farm for example... starve to death or get shot and die instantly??? which one is more humane? 

OP well done for doing this and potentially saving someones life!

If a dog attacked and killed someone we have no qualms bout killing the dog 

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1. What - being left lying on the ground, unable to get up, and in agony. Until about twenty minutes later, someone (who had been watching the entire time) eventually comes along and ends the misery. How often does this sort of thing happen? If it's happened once, then who is to say it isn't a regular occurrence?

2. Emphasis on potentially. All these ifs and mights. Never giving chances to animals to improve their behaviour. It's no wonder they become 'dangerous' in the first place. All those negative vibes going about. You can actually instigate aggressive behaviours with your energy. What's happened to calm assertiveness.

3. I would have a qualm about it. There's usually a good reason for a dog to bite/attack. For reasons stated in #2 and that most people haven't a clue how to read a dog's body language. As always the animal pays the ultimate price.


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## Over2You (9 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			its a fact....

i've been to Potters..inside where they take the pony from you, where they process, the refridgeration unit..actually inside..

so yes, AA propaganda.
		
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You are a horse hating member who takes great pleasure in killing them. Clearly you are employed there with all your 'inside' info. What the hell are you doing here??


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## vixann (9 November 2010)

2. Emphasis on potentially. All these ifs and mights. Never giving chances to animals to improve their behaviour. It's no wonder they become 'dangerous' in the first place. All those negative vibes going about. You can actually instigate aggressive behaviours with your energy. What's happened to calm assertiveness.


and you know exactly how long i have had him and long i have spent with him and how many chances i have given him don't you??? ....... oh no sorry - you don't lol


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## vixann (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			You are a horse hating member who takes great pleasure in killing them. Clearly you are employed there with all your 'inside' info. What the hell are you doing here??
		
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oh i see - you are THAT kind of horse owner!!! TBH dont even know why you opened thos thread to start with!!!


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## spaniel (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			1. What - being left lying on the ground, unable to get up, and in agony. Until about twenty minutes later, someone (who had been watching the entire time) eventually comes along and ends the misery. How often does this sort of thing happen? If it's happened once, then who is to say it isn't a regular occurrence?

.
		
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If you can PROVE this - and not using a highly suspect right wing animal rights organisation then you need to take  up your point with DEFRA.

This situation (if Ive not missed something) has already been explained to you and is NOT (if it is the case) the fault of the slaughterhouse.

More hysterical drivel,  I thought maybe this thread had moved on from that.

May I make a suggestion.....grow a pair and phone Turners or Potters and make arrangements to actually go and have a proper visit,  see how they work and THEN form an opinion.


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## spaniel (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			You are a horse hating member who takes great pleasure in killing them. Clearly you are employed there with all your 'inside' info. What the hell are you doing here??
		
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Im sure nativeponies will be delighted to hear that she has another job!!

More hysterical rubbish.


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## Kenzo (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			Yep. *DON'T* understand it - *KILL* it. *MUST* be dangerous - *KILL* it. *MIGHT* have a brain tumour - *KILL* it. 

What kind of a world is it when we don't give a second thought to getting rid of a sentient being as if it were a carton of milk past its best before date.
		
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Well I don't know about you, but I for one wouldn't want to live in the kind of world where sale rings, equine re-homing websites (need I say more ) are bursting at the seams full of dangerous/unwanted/half starved un treated un sound horses, ones that are being passed about dealing yards, sold on as 'companions' or passed onto registered horse charities (that have enough to deal with) because we don't like the thought of them being killed?

Are you going to ensure this sort animal has a home for life?


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## chestnut cob (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			You are a horse hating member who takes great pleasure in killing them. Clearly you are employed there with all your 'inside' info. What the hell are you doing here??
		
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Tell me this post is meant to be tongue in cheek??


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## Dotilas (9 November 2010)

Very very interesting thread, thankyou to the OP, and I would like to say that it says a great deal that the OP isn't considering trying to pass the horse on, instead they are doing one of the most responsible things a horse person could do in the situation. Who knows, the OP might be preventing a human death in the future by their actions now.


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## mcnaughty (9 November 2010)

beeswax said:



			In all honesty if i could afford another i would, i would probably end up with all that go en route to the abbatoirs. If he has got to go he has got to go at least he can't hurt himself or anyone else and i understand that, but lets not start talking about prices per kg etc okay!  Disagreement finished and wounds washed off alright, chin up, i bet it is a hard decision to make at the end of the day.
		
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Sorry, but I have to agree with this - OP, when you got the name of the abattoir that should have been the end of the subject - to go on to ask about prices is too close to the nail for some on here and you damn well knew that when you posted that additional question.  Go and phone the abattoir and ask them the finer details - what you do with your pony is your business - but we do not want your business rubbed in our faces.  

I actually avoided this post due to the title but when I saw the number of posts it had accrued I assume that something stupid had been said and I was right.


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## vixann (9 November 2010)

mcnaughty said:



			Sorry, but I have to agree with this - OP, when you got the name of the abattoir that should have been the end of the subject - to go on to ask about prices is too close to the nail for some on here and you damn well knew that when you posted that additional question.  Go and phone the abattoir and ask them the finer details - what you do with your pony is your business - but we do not want your business rubbed in our faces.  

I actually avoided this post due to the title but when I saw the number of posts it had accrued I assume that something stupid had been said and I was right.
		
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I wasnt the one who asked for prices per kg etc if you read back.


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## Pipkin (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			1. What - being left lying on the ground, unable to get up, and in agony. Until about twenty minutes later, someone (who had been watching the entire time) eventually comes along and ends the misery. How often does this sort of thing happen? If it's happened once, then who is to say it isn't a regular occurrence?

2. Emphasis on potentially. All these ifs and mights. Never giving chances to animals to improve their behaviour. It's no wonder they become 'dangerous' in the first place. All those negative vibes going about. You can actually instigate aggressive behaviours with your energy. What's happened to calm assertiveness.

3. I would have a qualm about it. There's usually a good reason for a dog to bite/attack. For reasons stated in #2 and that most people haven't a clue how to read a dog's body language. As always the animal pays the ultimate price.
		
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Ah right so the dog that mauled me had a reason to???? and it also had reason to attack two people after me...stopping one man having kids???
I`ve had dogs all my life...i can tell an aggressive dog from a non aggressive dog..i can tell when an animal is going to attack....this darling fluffy bunny of a dog showed no sign of being upset or angry until it had a lovely chew on my arm and then scarred me for life!!


OP has stated she has given the pony chance after chance...the animal is dangerous....she hasnt said it MAY be dangerous...it is!!!

Why dont you take the pony off the OP and see if you can turn it into a lovely little well behaved pony? 

As for the horse lying on the ground...do you have proof?? if so why rant on here ?Report it to the appropriate people 

Do you agree with the hunt taking a horse?


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## nativetyponies (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			You are a horse hating member who takes great pleasure in killing them. Clearly you are employed there with all your 'inside' info. What the hell are you doing here??
		
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weirdo.

go and do something useful...


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## Maesfen (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			You are a horse hating member who takes great pleasure in killing them. Clearly you are employed there with all your 'inside' info. What the hell are you doing here??
		
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That's one of the funniest and stupidest things you could ever say.  
If you only knew NP, you'd have a completely different view I can tell you that for nothing - and you'd have a very red face and have to eat your words.


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## Jim Moriarty (9 November 2010)

mcnaughty said:



			to go on to ask about prices is too close to the nail for some on here
		
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Well, perhaps 'some on here' should keep out of the thread then...


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## Pipkin (9 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			weirdo.

go and do something useful...
		
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Reading this thread thoroughly would be a good start for them


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## vixann (9 November 2010)

JimMoriarty said:



			Well, perhaps 'some on here' should keep out of the thread then...
		
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ah is that some kind of apology???  well many ppl on here should keep out like my original post states but that hasnt stopped them either.


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## Over2You (9 November 2010)

Caz89 said:



			"As we walked through the holding pen, a gunshot went off. Two young thoroughbreds jumped and began biting each other's necks, which were covered in red welts"

Can I suggest that you take the time to read the link .... http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/oct/01/horseracing.sport 

People who say "I can't afford to have the horse pts" quite simply shouldn't have a horse if you arn't able to meet the needs of it. We all know a time will come when they will need to be pts or they die and should be prepared financially and mentally. When your family members get old, your dogs and cats, your husband/wife will you send them to like a concentration camp?? Queing to die which is what these horses do! I'm not saying it's wrong to put horses down if that's the last route but after reading the above link It makes me feel sick that people are naive enough to think that horses cannot sense death and danger especially when it happens so close to the live horses  If they are going to do it can't one horse be taken at a time to a seperate shooting area far away from the live animals ? No because this is to much hassle for them as they are going to die anyway 

Click to expand...

Exactly!! There should also be a licensing system for all pets. If you don't have the money or a basic knowledge of animal psychology, you should NOT own an animal!! Simple.  

Also read the article you posted. Interesting to hear that several 'beloved' names in horse sport are liars. Not surprising really.


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## the_sophies (9 November 2010)

I have to say I have had my opinion changed by the information in this thread.  The last time I was in a slaughterhouse was a long time ago and it wasn't in the UK - so hardly relevant information.  If the eyewitness accounts of what goes on in Potter's are true then what is so wrong with the OP sending this clearly dangerous pony there?  She is doing it a favour!  I believe her when she says how dangerous it is - how is she supposed to get it proper veterinary/farrier attention if she can hardly get near it?  And 'find it a home as a companion' - come on, who in their right mind would take something like this on?

Thank you to those of you who have posted information about how clean and professional these places really are.  Food for thought.  If it wasn't for the abattoirs, we would really be up s**t creek.  Look at what is happening in America, they banned horse slaughter and now illegal 'slaughterhouses' are springing up in people's backyards!  Yes, in an ideal world we would all have the hunt/vet take our animals, and I'm sure that's what most people on here do.  However, for many horses that is just not an option. So what is the greater evil?  Leave them to rot, abandoned or neglected in fields around the country?   Or send them off to what appears to be a quick, humane death?  I know what I would choose!


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## Amymay (9 November 2010)

TicTac said:



			Don't be silly and don't take my view out of context.
		
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I don't think I have taken it out of context, or am being silly.

I'm genuinly curious to know what your answer is to my question


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## Zebedee (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			You are a horse hating member who takes great pleasure in killing them. Clearly you are employed there with all your 'inside' info. What the hell are you doing here??
		
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How dare you, you stupid ignoramous.

I would take every single one of my horse to Potters before I would leave then in the charge of someone like you, & thats a fact.
I would have no qualms whatsoever though about leaving them under the supervision of nativeponies


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## Nocturnal (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			You are a horse hating member who takes great pleasure in killing them. Clearly you are employed there with all your 'inside' info. What the hell are you doing here??
		
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Pmsl, _shhh_, you're embarrassing yourself, love.


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## the_sophies (9 November 2010)

From the Guardian article:
 " the end is brutal: a bullet through the temple or a metal bolt into the side of the brain. Then their carcasses are loaded on to freezer lorries and driven to France, where their flesh is sold as gourmet meat"

What does the author believe happens to horses then?  Would he rather they were forced to travel live to France and be killed there?


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## nativetyponies (9 November 2010)

the_sophies said:



			I have to say I have had my opinion changed by the information in this thread.  The last time I was in a slaughterhouse was a long time ago and it wasn't in the UK - so hardly relevant information.  If the eyewitness accounts of what goes on in Potter's are true then what is so wrong with the OP sending this clearly dangerous pony there?  She is doing it a favour!  I believe her when she says how dangerous it is - how is she supposed to get it proper veterinary/farrier attention if she can hardly get near it?  And 'find it a home as a companion' - come on, who in their right mind would take something like this on?

Thank you to those of you who have posted information about how clean and professional these places really are.  Food for thought.  If it wasn't for the abattoirs, we would really be up s**t creek.  Look at what is happening in America, they banned horse slaughter and now illegal 'slaughterhouses' are springing up in people's backyards!  Yes, in an ideal world we would all have the hunt/vet take our animals, and I'm sure that's what most people on here do.  However, for many horses that is just not an option. So what is the greater evil?  Leave them to rot, abandoned or neglected in fields around the country?   Or send them off to what appears to be a quick, humane death?  I know what I would choose!
		
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the eyewitness accounts..yes, they are true...and no, i dont work there..but if offered a job on "horse days" then yes, i would.

i've been inside several times...i've seen a couple of "my" animals all the way through the line..from when they enter the enclosed barn, to being on the hook...its nothing like the picture that "Animal Rights" nutters try to paint it.

as for CCTV...yes, agree 100%..ALL UK abattoirs should have them.


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## mcnaughty (9 November 2010)

pastie2 said:



			I dont doubt for one moment that the OP is making the right decision. So why not just get on with it, why make an issue on this forum about the price per kilo. To me it is a post designed to cause confrontation. Anyone with an ounce of sense will put a dangerous horse down, just that most people dont really advertise the fact.
		
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Absolutely


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## Amymay (9 November 2010)

What - being left lying on the ground, unable to get up, and in agony. Until about twenty minutes later, someone (who had been watching the entire time) eventually comes along and ends the misery. How often does this sort of thing happen? If it's happened once, then who is to say it isn't a regular occurrence?
		
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If you read an earlier post, you'll find that there was an explanation there about this situation - but we would all agree that it was unacceptable and a buerocratic (sp) problem that needs addressing.

But Over2You - why not add something constructive to a post?  You so rarely do.

Just because someone has a differing opinion to you - it doesn't mean you have the right to hurl abuse at them.

As has been said many, many times.  Death is not such a terrible thing, providing it is done with professionalism and compassion.

That _can_ be done by the abbotior - and it's up to the individual to decide if this is the route for them.

You ask what Nativeponies is doing on this forum?  I would question what you are doing here - as clearly you are someone who lives in cloud cuckoo land.


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## vixann (9 November 2010)

mcnaughty said:



			Absolutely
		
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like I have already stated (but will do again as some ppl must only read the bits they want to read) I DID NOT ask about price per kg - I asked for a bloody phone number. JESUS (now that will offend sum1 too!!)


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## Amymay (9 November 2010)

the_sophies said:



			From the Guardian article:
 " the end is brutal: a bullet through the temple or a metal bolt into the side of the brain. Then their carcasses are loaded on to freezer lorries and driven to France, where their flesh is sold as gourmet meat"

What does the author believe happens to horses then?  Would he rather they were forced to travel live to France and be killed there?
		
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Precisely.  A truley excellent point!


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## nativetyponies (9 November 2010)

vixann said:



			like I have already stated (but will do again as some ppl must only read the bits they want to read) I DID NOT ask about price per kg - I asked for a bloody phone number. JESUS (now that will offend sum1 too!!)
		
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i believe it was Martlin who asked ME the price per kilo..which i then went off to find..


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## MosMum (9 November 2010)

vixann said:



			like I have already stated (but will do again as some ppl must only read the bits they want to read) I DID NOT ask about price per kg - I asked for a bloody phone number. JESUS (now that will offend sum1 too!!)
		
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:O:O:O:O You swore :O:O:O:O

Now your pony won't go to heaven when he dies 

(Completely kidding, in case that wasn't clear  )


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## Jim Moriarty (9 November 2010)

vixann said:



			ah is that some kind of apology???
		
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??  ??


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## vixann (9 November 2010)

JimMoriarty said:



			??  ??
		
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as it was implied i was the one asking about prices then it was realised i was not.
guess not though

yes i did swear!!

And I am glad it isnt going to heaven!!!!!


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## Over2You (9 November 2010)

hch4971 said:



			Sharon, let me put a scenario to you:  You say you are a mother, well so am I and this is why I feel so strongly that OP is doing the right thing.  

You take on a horse that you know has problems, you send it to a specialist to cure the problems and break it for you, all is going well until suddenly, without warning, it attacks the person (very experienced) lunging it and takes, literally, a huge chunk of her arm off.  You then ignore all the advice of the vets and trainer to PTS and send to another, well thought of and very experienced, trainer.  Again all is going well until one day it launches an attack without warning and tries to kill said trainer, again literally, stamping all over him, he is rescued and hospitalised with horrendous injuries.  Still you ignore the advice given and move it to your own yard which is shared with another YO, you decide to put this horse in a stable next to the other guys teenage (13) liveries little mare, they leave the yard, eventually his business folds because no-one wants to be near this dangerous horse.  Suppose you were on this yard with your child, would you risk that one day this horse may attack and kill, or at least maim, your child.  This horse was dangerous on the ground, what makes you think you know better that the owner making the decision.  At what point does someone have the guts to make the right decision. Or, do you do what the owner did, try to sell it to a dealer to go to auction without mentioning it's problems, to be bought by someone like me for their own daughter.  OP is being responsible FGS, at least she isn't just passing it on to someone else!

And, to those who think OP shouldn't have posted, it is a fact of life and something that we should be able to discuss without getting sentimental.  Sometimes PTS, whatever means, IS the best for the horse.
		
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You say to "send it" not go along with the horse to the trainer. Any trainer worth his or her salt will have the owner come too and become competent with the training methods being used. Any trainer that doesn't do this should be avoided. I've seen dogs and horses come back from trainers like that worse than ever.

As for a child being injured. Don't let the child near the horse. Simple. If the horse/pony belongs to the child, then educate the child. It's all about education. If you don't know how to deal with behaviours or aren't willing to seek help from a reputable trainer, then you have no business owning any animal.


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## hellspells (9 November 2010)

amymay said:



			If you read an earlier post, you'll find that there was an explanation there about this situation - but we would all agree that it was unacceptable and a buerocratic (sp) problem that needs addressing.

But Over2You - why not add something constructive to a post?  You so rarely do.

Just because someone has a differing opinion to you - it doesn't mean you have the right to hurl abuse at them.

As has been said many, many times.  Death is not such a terrible thing, providing it is done with professionalism and compassion.

That _can_ be done by the abbotior - and it's up to the individual to decide if this is the route for them.

You ask what Nativeponies is doing on this forum?  I would question what you are doing here - as clearly you are someone who lives in cloud cuckoo land.
		
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I couldn't agree more with this post (Having spent most of the day reading it at one point or another). I am truly shocked by your attitude Over2you.  How dare you come and spout such rubbish in such a way with no space for listening to reason, and equally how dare you come and hurl personal insults at someone such as NP - someone with far more knowledge than many people could ever wish to have.  
People are all intitled to their opinions but at least have the decency to take other peoples opinions on board and not attack them for them.


To the OP - I hope you find the correct out come for you and for the pony, whatever that maybe.


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## hellspells (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			You say to "send it" not go along with the horse to the trainer. Any trainer worth his or her salt will have the owner come too and become competent with the training methods being used. Any trainer that doesn't do this should be avoided. I've seen dogs and horses come back from trainers like that worse than ever.

As for a child being injured. Don't let the child near the horse. Simple. If the horse/pony belongs to the child, then educate the child. It's all about education. If you don't know how to deal with behaviours or aren't willing to seek help from a reputable trainer, then you have no business owning any animal.
		
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My god I want to live in your world - Its so black and white!  Its not simple at all.  I think you really need to come and live in the real world.


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## MosMum (9 November 2010)

Love my son to bits but if he has an autistic meltdown I'm going to restrain him rather than get bitten. 

Kind of hard to hog tie a several-hundred-pound horse. 

As they say on 'House', "If he had TB it wouldn't be his fault, either, but I still wouldn't let him cough on me."


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## jrp204 (9 November 2010)

Phew, have just read the whole thread!!  OP, you are doing the right thing and I wish more 'responsible' animal owners would do the same thing rather than pass on animals that are unsafe. I would have no hesitation sending a horse to an abbotoir but then i am a farmer who's responsibility to all of my animals starts at their birth until the time they are due to be slaughtered be it for food (sheep etc) or if they were dangerous or were ill/injured. It is our ultimate responsibility to ensure our animals have a stress free death and it would pay many of the people who are against the slaughter of horses to look at their diet and take note of how many animals they eat  in one form or another, as if they have a problem with horse slaughter how can they justify eating other meats.


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## PollyP99 (9 November 2010)

Whilst not wishing to agree with Over2You's outburst re 'Nativeponies' I would have to say that having only been a member on here for a few weeks I have yet to read a post from NP that is not pro-killing in some form or just downright rude.

I see it that 'she/he' is intentionally trying to goad people into entering an argument, best not to rise to it.

ps, I agree that death comes to us all but who would willingly watch their horse hanging on a hook.....a step too far NP.


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## SusannaF (9 November 2010)

Half the people on this thread are railing against the details of slaughter being "censored" but then saying they don't _want_ to know details like price per kilo, and what actually happens at a place like Potters, and that these facts should never be mentioned on HHO.

Ada Cole spent the money of an earlier version of the ILPH on establishing a humane horse abbatoir in Lincolnshire so that horses would not have to go through the hell of transportation overseas to dodgy continental slaughter houses. As long as people and zoo animals go on eating horse meat, there will be abbatoirs. Better that they are regulated and their facilities and procedures open to inspection than hidden away in secrecy.

There are a huge number of horses out there with no homes. The OP can give another a chance now.


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## Jesstickle (9 November 2010)

PollyP99 said:



			Whilst not wishing to agree with Over2You's outburst re 'Nativeponies' I would have to say that having only been a member on here for a few weeks I have yet to read a post from NP that is not pro-killing in some form or just downright rude.
.
		
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Why don't you wait until you know the whole story before mouthing off if you've only been here a few weeks then?

OP you sound very sensible and I for one have found this thread fascinating (mostly) I would be really interested to go and look around if it weren't so far away. 

Would they actually let me in to nose if I asked? I'm not a weird sicko but I think it's part of life and something we should probably all try to know a bit more about. I eat meat so I suppose I shouldn't just close my eyes to it all.

And yes, that includes horse meat when I'm on the continent. I really don't see the difference between a cow and a horse frankly. I wouldn't eat my own but I wouldn't mind if someone else did.


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## *hic* (9 November 2010)

PollyP99 said:



			ps, I agree that death comes to us all but who would willingly watch their horse hanging on a hook.....a step too far NP.
		
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You don't HAVE to go in with them. If you have your ponio pts nicely at home wearing it's favourite headcollar how do you think they get onto the the lorry to be taken away - or lifted by the JCB if you've managed to get permission to bury them.


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## Nocturnal (9 November 2010)

PollyP99 said:



			Whilst not wishing to agree with Over2You's outburst re 'Nativeponies' I would have to say that having only been a member on here for a few weeks I have yet to read a post from NP that is not pro-killing in some form or just downright rude.

I see it that 'she/he' is intentionally trying to goad people into entering an argument, best not to rise to it.

ps, I agree that death comes to us all but who would willingly watch their horse hanging on a hook.....a step too far NP.
		
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Bloomin' Norah... you know what I read every time I see a post from NP? People slating her for no obvious reason, when all she's done is given sound, matter-of-fact advice/opinions.


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## Girlychu (9 November 2010)

I have found this thread informative and very helpful. I have seen dangerous horses which have/had the ability to maim and hurt humans, other animals and themselves. I know one owner decided to put their animal to sleep. The other owner decided to sell on. You can guess the rest. I think if you own any animal be that a horse or a mouse you must also take the responsibility for when the animal needs pts. The OP has clearly given the subject some thought and weighed up all the options opened to her/him. She/he must do what is best for the animal and themselves. Whatever they decided to do I hope it goes smoothly and without incident.


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## nativetyponies (9 November 2010)

PollyP99 said:



			ps, I agree that death comes to us all but who would willingly watch their horse hanging on a hook.....a step too far NP.
		
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Why is it a step too far?

i was curious as to what happened..so i was shown..and where did i say it was my horse?


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## martlin (9 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			i believe it was Martlin who asked ME the price per kilo..which i then went off to find..
		
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Yes, it was me, and I'm not ashamed of it in any way, shape or form. I think it IS an important consideration when making the decision whether to take a horse to the abattoir or have it shot at home.
I don't see much difference between a horse and a cow, for example - and I know exactly how much beef fetches per kilo every week, it would be impossible to farm otherwise.


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## Over2You (9 November 2010)

jesstickle said:



			Why don't you wait until you know the whole story before mouthing off if you've only been here a few weeks then?

OP you sound very sensible and I for one have found this thread fascinating (mostly) I would be really interested to go and look around if it weren't so far away. 

Would they actually let me in to nose if I asked? I'm not a weird sicko but I think it's part of life and something we should probably all try to know a bit more about. I eat meat so I suppose I shouldn't just close my eyes to it all.

And yes, that includes horse meat when I'm on the continent. I really don't see the difference between a cow and a horse frankly. I wouldn't eat my own but I wouldn't mind if someone else did.
		
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What "whole story" would that be exactly?? I've read other posts saying "oh you don't know NP," "if you knew her, you would mince your words." I have never been enlightened on the bigger picture. It's like Patty and her miraculous evidence that would have cleared JG's name. It was promised, but never delivered. Who is NP exactly? Do tell!!

You eat horse, but not your own. There's nothing like double standards, eh??


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## martlin (9 November 2010)

Good Grief, Over2You, you are a weirdo.
Why do you feel the need to be so rude and abusive?


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## WoopsiiD (9 November 2010)

.......save the horsey!!!

Get a grip, its always the same old fluffy bunny shiit and its always from the same crowd who would be the first 'in the square to get good seats at a public hanging'. 

FWIW OH had to visit an abbatoir recently on business. He was dreading it, not that he is a Bunny Hugger but he too had be bombarded with propagander. He returned to say that it was infact one of the cleanest, well run environment he had been too.

NP, one poster mentioned 'starving horses'...it made me wonder, places such as Potters don't keep the animal that long do they? What is 'the turnover' time?


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## kazhar (9 November 2010)

I have only had a quick look through this thread and all im going to say is it was a simple question asking for a phone number.....not asking wether they should have THEIR pony put down or not. At the end of the day, it has nothing to do with anyone else. can we only ask questions on here if they are classed as "nice" or can we live in the real world where not everything is all fluffy bunnies. a lot of "I know better than you, even if I know nothing about your pony" going on around here.


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## CorvusCorax (9 November 2010)

Great thread, very informative.

As always, if you don't agree with some posters in entirety on everything they say, you are wrong and a murderer. 
God forbid some posters on here are ever landed with a truly difficult, disturbed, troubled animal, they would wet themselves.


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## chestnut cob (9 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			Why is it a step too far?

i was curious as to what happened..so i was shown..and where did i say it was my horse?
		
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And how is this any different to me seeing freshly killed deer being hung and butchered at the hunt kennels?  This is exactly the end I would prefer for my own horse - shot at home then taken to the kennels for hounds - and I wouldn't expect them to treat that carcass any differently to the deer carcass.  I can't say I would personally want to see my horse being butchered at the kennels because I would be upset at the loss itself however I have seen it happening to other animals and don't have a problem with it.

This thread has become bizarre.  Animals, including horses, being killed for meat is a fact of life.  Some of those who are getting upset on this thread about the number of racehorses killed for meat need to realise that they are trying to deal with a symptom, not the problem itself.  The problem, IMHO, is indiscriminate breeding and massive wastage from the racing industry (horse industry generally, but as racehorses have been brought up on this thread, it will do as an example).  Protesting about abbatoirs and shouting down people who use them will not stop that.  Shutting down the abbatoirs will simply lead to more cases of neglect and more for the charities to deal with when they are already overloaded.  The symptom of excess breeding is horses going for meat.. because there is no where else for them.  You need to deal with the cause... the breeding itself.  Get the industry to take some responsibility.


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## scatty_mare (9 November 2010)

chestnut cob said:



			This thread has become bizarre.  Animals, including horses, being killed for meat is a fact of life.  Some of those who are getting upset on this thread about the number of racehorses killed for meat need to realise that they are trying to deal with a symptom, not the problem itself.  The problem, IMHO, is indiscriminate breeding and massive wastage from the racing industry (horse industry generally, but as racehorses have been brought up on this thread, it will do as an example).  Protesting about abbatoirs and shouting down people who use them will not stop that.  Shutting down the abbatoirs will simply lead to more cases of neglect and more for the charities to deal with when they are already overloaded.  The symptom of excess breeding is horses going for meat.. because there is no where else for them.
		
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This is exactly what I wanted to say. But you said it first, and much better!
Death is a natural part of life. Horses are not afraid of it. They do not have hopes and ambitions. A dignified, humane death is NOT the worst thing that can happen to a horse (or a person come to that, but let's save that debate for another day )


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## SusannaF (9 November 2010)

chestnut cob said:



			This thread has become bizarre.  Animals, including horses, being killed for meat is a fact of life.  Some of those who are getting upset on this thread about the number of racehorses killed for meat need to realise that they are trying to deal with a symptom, not the problem itself.  The problem, IMHO, is indiscriminate breeding and massive wastage from the racing industry (horse industry generally, but as racehorses have been brought up on this thread, it will do as an example).  Protesting about abbatoirs and shouting down people who use them will not stop that.  Shutting down the abbatoirs will simply lead to more cases of neglect and more for the charities to deal with when they are already overloaded.  The symptom of excess breeding is horses going for meat.. because there is no where else for them.
		
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Which is also exactly the problem they've had in the US, compounded by having no local slaughterers, leading to long-distance, miserable transportation, sometimes to places where the abbatoir regulations aren't exactly tip top. There are 100,000 new "unwanted" horses in the US every year, and only 13,400 spots for them in rescues.


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## MosMum (9 November 2010)

chestnut cob said:



			This thread has become bizarre.  Animals, including horses, being killed for meat is a fact of life.  Some of those who are getting upset on this thread about the number of racehorses killed for meat need to realise that they are trying to deal with a symptom, not the problem itself.  The problem, IMHO, is indiscriminate breeding and massive wastage from the racing industry (horse industry generally, but as racehorses have been brought up on this thread, it will do as an example).  Protesting about abbatoirs and shouting down people who use them will not stop that.  Shutting down the abbatoirs will simply lead to more cases of neglect and more for the charities to deal with when they are already overloaded.  The symptom of excess breeding is horses going for meat.. because there is no where else for them.
		
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I'm the one who brought up race horses in particular, having seen a video of the injuries incurred on the track which led to some of the slaughter horses ending up there. I also understand that horses are over-bred and for every one that does well at the races, loads of others are a 'byproduct' of the industry.

And I didn't mention anything against the slaughtering of horses for meat, etc.  and certainly have done no railing against anyone or anything.


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## Over2You (9 November 2010)

martlin said:



			Good Grief, Over2You, you are a weirdo.
Why do you feel the need to be so rude and abusive?
		
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I am not being rude or abusive. I am merely stating facts of life I have learned through my own experiences. And yeah, I do find it rather odd, that on a forum meant for horse lovers, that so many people think it's right to kill a healthy, but "dangerous" animal. Especially since it was probably through their own mismanagement that caused the behaviours in the first place. I'd also like to know what the deal is with NativePonies. Besides that of advocating the slaughter of horse on every given occasion. I also find it rather strange that someone who will eat horsemeat, but not from their own animal.

I'm not against the slaughter of horses, but of ALL animals. You can fool yourselves into thinking abattoirs are squeaky clean, but undercover footage shows time and time again they are far from humane or professional. When it's my Guy's time, he is going at home by injection, then buried. Put down by a competent vet (who become one because of their love of animals). NOT by someone whose sole job is killing them, so therefore could not give two hoots about them when they were alive.


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## nativetyponies (9 November 2010)

WoopsiiD said:



			.......save the horsey!!!

Get a grip, its always the same old fluffy bunny shiit and its always from the same crowd who would be the first 'in the square to get good seats at a public hanging'. 

FWIW OH had to visit an abbatoir recently on business. He was dreading it, not that he is a Bunny Hugger but he too had be bombarded with propagander. He returned to say that it was infact one of the cleanest, well run environment he had been too.

NP, one poster mentioned 'starving horses'...it made me wonder, places such as Potters don't keep the animal that long do they? What is 'the turnover' time?
		
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with the chance of being accused that i am an employee i can, once again, answer this..

no, they DO NOT starve them..infact, not 2 miles from my home is a holding field owned by Mr Potter..that is ATM empty..but sometimes it has up to 30-50 ponies in there..they are there anything from 2 weeks to a few months..

here are pictures of some i took last summer..the 2 roan ponies and the bay pony i bought from Mr Potter..they are now riding ponies..


























ponies at my yard..
3yr old colt..now a gelding





3yr old filly





3yr old colt..now a gelding


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## chestnut cob (9 November 2010)

MosMum said:



			I'm the one who brought up race horses in particular, having seen a video of the injuries incurred on the track which led to some of the slaughter horses ending up there. I also understand that horses are over-bred and for every one that does well at the races, loads of others are a 'byproduct' of the industry.

And I didn't mention anything against the slaughtering of horses for meat, etc.  and certainly have done no railing against anyone or anything.
		
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My post wasn't aimed at you particularly, I just used racehorses as an example because they had been mentioned.  I certainly wasn't about to go back through 28+ pages to find out exactly who brought them up and in what context.  They just served as an example.


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## scatty_mare (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			And yeah, I do find it rather odd, that on a forum meant for horse lovers, that so many people think it's right to kill a healthy, but "dangerous" animal.
		
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Healthy means both physically and mentally. It is very sad that many dangerous horses have become that way through mismanagement. It does not mean that they are any less likely to cause serious or fatal injury.


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## MosMum (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			I am not being rude or abusive. I am merely stating facts of life I have learned through my own experiences. And yeah, I do find it rather odd, that on a forum meant for horse lovers, that so many people think it's right to kill a healthy, but "dangerous" animal. Especially since it was probably through their own mismanagement that caused the behaviours in the first place. I'd also like to know what the deal is with NativePonies. Besides that of advocating the slaughter of horse on every given occasion. I also find it rather strange that someone who will eat horsemeat, but not from their own animal.
.
		
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Do you have children? If not, when you do, perhaps this will make more sense to you.

Theory of mind allows us to have empathy for other people who are in a situation that we can emotionally imagine for ourselves/our loved ones.

If OP sold/loaned/gave that pony to me, whether he was honest and I just assumed I was a better handler, or whether he lied and I thought it was a perfect child's pony, if that pony hurt/maimed/killed my son or daughter I would spend the rest of my life hunting OP down. 

Your absolute, purist, fundamental, unwavering faith in every single horse that is physically healthy (clearly mentally healthy doesn't come into it fo ryou) is misplaced.

There is a pecking order on earth. People come first. All life has value, but no other life comes anywhere close to what my kids lives are worth. That's my point of view, and others will have lives who they hold in higher regard. Overall, people as a species, consider human life to be worth more than animal. 

If you feel strongely otherwise, I'm afraid you will spend your entire life vastly outnumbered.


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## martlin (9 November 2010)

There is no deal with Nativeponies, she has no obligation to reveal her identity, neither have you.
Funny that, what you say about her posts... because when I read yours, and I read quite a lot of them, I always think you either live in a cuckoo land or just like to offend people.

I also eat horsemeat, I wouldn't eat my own, because none of them would be deemed fit for human consumption, seeing at one point or another in their lives they most likely have had 'bute' for example.

Have you been to a slaughterhouse? or are you going on Animal Aid videos?


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## nativetyponies (9 November 2010)

Over2You...if you have something to ask about myself..or better still, directly to my self, then go ahead.


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## martlin (9 November 2010)

Nativeponies, I would like to ask something....


































































































Would you come and sweep my yard? Yours looks pristine...


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## Holly Hocks (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			I am not being rude or abusive. I am merely stating facts of life I have learned through my own experiences. And yeah, I do find it rather odd, that on a forum meant for horse lovers, that so many people think it's right to kill a healthy, but "dangerous" animal. Especially since it was probably through their own mismanagement that caused the behaviours in the first place. I'd also like to know what the deal is with NativePonies. Besides that of advocating the slaughter of horse on every given occasion. I also find it rather strange that someone who will eat horsemeat, but not from their own animal.

I'm not against the slaughter of horses, but of ALL animals. You can fool yourselves into thinking abattoirs are squeaky clean, but undercover footage shows time and time again they are far from humane or professional. When it's my Guy's time, he is going at home by injection, then buried. Put down by a competent vet (who become one because of their love of animals). NOT by someone whose sole job is killing them, so therefore could not give two hoots about them when they were alive.
		
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I'm afraid I do have to agree with this somewhat.  I realise that horses have to be put down, but to send them regularly to the abbatoir which seems to keep them in business seems somewhat bizarre from people who are supposed to take such pleasure from their animals...


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## nativetyponies (9 November 2010)

A clean yard is a germ free yard.


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## MosMum (9 November 2010)

OMG NP I know your secret!!!!


You clearly have OCD


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## martlin (9 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			A clean yard is a germ free yard.  

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Do you use Dettol wipes?


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## nativetyponies (9 November 2010)

I hate mess on the yard....


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## martlin (9 November 2010)

I can do tidy, but I'm always struggling with ''well swept''.
It must be my second most hated job, closely following pushing the wheelbarrow


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## Dolcé (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			You say to "send it" not go along with the horse to the trainer. Any trainer worth his or her salt will have the owner come too and become competent with the training methods being used. Any trainer that doesn't do this should be avoided. I've seen dogs and horses come back from trainers like that worse than ever.

As for a child being injured. Don't let the child near the horse. Simple. If the horse/pony belongs to the child, then educate the child. It's all about education. If you don't know how to deal with behaviours or aren't willing to seek help from a reputable trainer, then you have no business owning any animal.
		
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You miss the point completely, if only life were as straightforward as you appear to think it is.  Personally, I feel anyone who cannot accept that an animal (any animal) can be dangerous, and it not be something that can be dealt with someone who can 'deal with behaviours' should steer well clear.  I only hope that you never come across one of these animals as I fear you may change your attitude very quickly!


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## Echo Bravo (9 November 2010)

Haven't gone through most of the posts as everyone has their own honest opinions how to handle so called dangerous animal. I've had one still got her and she's a sweet as an cherrypie. Some are so traumaticed they are best put down for their own quality of life which sounds zero. I've have my old horses put down at home and happy to pay for it. Mozmum you came over that we are the super race. We are not, the human race has caused more destruction to other species. I'm sure your grandchildren will grow up wondering what a sparrow is. I'd like to see a lot of the low life, druggies rapists child abusers gotten ridden of.
Have eaten my own beef, pork but not chickens and never horse meat, but neith would I eat dog meat or cat meat.


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## SirenaXVI (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			I am not being rude or abusive. Calling someone a horse hater/murderer on this forum is NOT abusive?I am merely stating facts of life I have learned through my own experiences. And yeah, I do find it rather odd, that on a forum meant for horse lovers, that so many people think it's right to kill a healthy, but "dangerous" animal. Especially since it was probably through their own mismanagement that caused the behaviours in the first place.How damn arrogant you sound, HOW exactly do you know that it was the OPs mismanagement?  Are you psychic?   I'd also like to know what the deal is with NativePonies. Besides that of advocating the slaughter of horse on every given occasion. I also find it rather strange that someone who will eat horsemeat, but not from their own animal.The deal with NP?  No deal but she is a damned good horsewoman, I'll bet she has forgotten more than you will ever know

I'm not against the slaughter of horses, but of ALL animals. Dear God!You can fool yourselves into thinking abattoirs are squeaky clean, but undercover footage shows time and time again they are far from humane or professional.Complete *******s! When it's my Guy's time, he is going at home by injection, then buried. Put down by a competent vet (who become one because of their love of animals). NOT by someone whose sole job is killing them, so therefore could not give two hoots about them when they were alive.It must be lovely living in your completely barking world.  Sadly real life is rather different.  You are very fortunate in being able to not see beyond the end of your nose through your rose tinted specs 

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## Meowy Catkin (9 November 2010)

I was always told that PTS by lethal injection is kindest on the owner but that PTS by bullet or humane killer is kindest to the horse. I have witnessed both bullet (I held the horse, not my horse but it had severe lami wasn't going to recover) and lethal injection (again not my horse but this one had a terrible leg injury). For both of those horses, death was a release from their pain and was the kindest thing for them. However, I will never use lethal injection for my horses as the bullet was quicker and alot less traumatic for the horse.


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## Over2You (9 November 2010)

martlin said:



			There is no deal with Nativeponies, she has no obligation to reveal her identity, neither have you.
Funny that, what you say about her posts... because when I read yours, and I read quite a lot of them, I always think you either live in a cuckoo land or just like to offend people.
You sound such a sanctimonious cow...
I also eat horsemeat, I wouldn't eat my own, because none of them would be deemed fit for human consumption, seeing at one point or another in their lives they most likely have had 'bute' for example.

Have you been to a slaughterhouse? or are you going on Animal Aid videos?
		
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You accused me of being rude, then you make an extremely rude comment yourself. At least I have not resorted to infantile name calling. How does that work for you?

There is apparently some kind of deal with NP or there wouldn't be as many posts saying "oh... if only you knew." If only I knew what exactly? 

No, I don't go exclusively by Animal Aid. I also use other sources and have watched many slaughter videos and read accounts of abuse and poor slaughter methods from abattoirs with "high standards of welfare."  Have a look at this: http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/slaughter/index.htm and this: http://www.viva.org.uk/video/sentencedtodeath.html. Then some of you will have the nerve to say that slaughtermen are highly competent individuals who would be sacked for doing what you saw in that video. 

And no I have NEVER been to a slaughterhouse. I am an animal lover and vegetarian, so why would I want to? I have forced myself to watch online videos in order to educate myself. You are the ones living in cloud cuckoo land if you think British slaughterhouses are wonderful places for animals to die in.


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## Happy Horse (9 November 2010)

To be honest the propaganda video filmed at Potters made me feel a lot more comfortable about horses going there to be put down.  It looked perfectly clean and well run and the horses were handled kindly and with respect.  This was produced by a group looking to discredit them so was obviously a true reflection of what actually happens there.  There was a reason for the horse lying outside but this was a reflection of whoever dropped it off in that state and not Potters.

NP is one of the most knowledgeable horse owners I have come across and gives ponies a chance that no one else will.  Just because she is practical doesn't make her cruel or a cold hearted killer.


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## martlin (9 November 2010)

Well, you see, I base my opinion of abattoirs on real life experience, not on viva or AA propaganda.
We'll never see eye to eye, because I farm animals for meat - in your eyes, I am a murderer.
Just consider the thought... if people didn't eat lamb, there wouldn't be any sheep around.


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## Bertthefrog (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			You accused me of being rude, then you make an extremely rude comment yourself. At least I have not resorted to infantile name calling. How does that work for you?

There is apparently some kind of deal with NP or there wouldn't be as many posts saying "oh... if only you knew." If only I knew what exactly? 

No, I don't go exclusively by Animal Aid. I also use other sources and have watched many slaughter videos and read accounts of abuse and poor slaughter methods from abattoirs with "high standards of welfare."  Have a look at this: http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/slaughter/index.htm and this: http://www.viva.org.uk/video/sentencedtodeath.html. Then some of you will have the nerve to say that slaughtermen are highly competent individuals who would be sacked for doing what you saw in that video. 

And no I have NEVER been to a slaughterhouse. I am an animal lover and vegetarian, so why would I want to? I have forced myself to watch online videos in order to educate myself. You are the ones living in cloud cuckoo land if you think British slaughterhouses are wonderful places for animals to die in.
		
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So - you have watched videos - which only still exist to promote sensationalism of the subject. Everyday, normal acitivites of well run abattoirs are not worth posting - as no one wants to view or comment on these.
 I am not saying for one minute that every slaughterman is perfect, never makes mistakes or has accidents - they are after all human, just as vets, doctors, police, forces etc. 
The problem I have with the videos is with the "spin" associated. In most cases a scene is presented, without the full story accompanying it - and assumptions are made, deliberately or otherwise.


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## Dolcé (9 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			Why is it a step too far?

i was curious as to what happened..so i was shown..and where did i say it was my horse?
		
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It was my horse, well the one that was my 'special boy' when I was an instructress.  I travelled to the abbatoir with my boss and I held him on the lead rope whilst the captive bolt was used, I stood and watched him being bled - I don't regret a minute of it, it wasn't something I would want to see every day but I know that the horse ended his life in a calm and very fast manner, he didn't know what had happened.  I felt that as he was 'my boy' I owed it to him to be there at the end.  This was a long time ago and I don't think it would happen like that now (with the owner holding the horse) but I am confident things will only have got better.

For what it is worth, I own 8 ponies, several that I have rescued and they have forever homes BUT if ever I couldn't keep them I can guarantee that every one of them will be PTS regardless of how young they are because I will never have to worry about where they are and if they ended up in a sales ring.  There are far worse things than death.


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## nativetyponies (9 November 2010)

I thought this thread was about Potters and Horse Slaughter?

What relevance do the VIVA propaganda videos have to this thread?..


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## tristar (9 November 2010)

no offence to op, its an individuals choice, but this talk of eating horses makes me so sad, a beautiful thoroughbred foal reared to 18 months, broken too young, raced too young, slaughtered at 3 - 4 years , eaten by humans, god's noblest creature deserves something better than this, i am ashamed to be human. total exploitation from day one.


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## Dolcé (9 November 2010)

There is apparently some kind of deal with NP or there wouldn't be as many posts saying "oh... if only you knew." If only I knew what exactly? 



OK, you are right, there IS a deal with NP  but it is a secret, when you find out you will feel soooooooo silly!


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## martlin (9 November 2010)

hch4971 said:



			OK, you are right, there IS a deal with NP  but it is a secret, when you find out you will feel soooooooo silly!
		
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## Enfys (9 November 2010)

TicTac said:



			Surely as a responsible horse owner you should know the name of a slaughter man local to you,
		
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Now there's a thought. I don't. Does everybody else know that?

If I have a horse I want put down I just phone a farmer, he does the job and then I bury it. The abbatoir that deals with our cattle and lambs don't take horses.


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## martlin (9 November 2010)

enfys said:



			Now there's a thought. I don't. Does everybody else know that?

If I have a horse I want put down I just phone a farmer, he does the job and then I bury it. The abbatoir that deals with our cattle and lambs don't take horses.
		
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I'm not sure, but I think Turners will be the closest for me.
My livestock abattoir doesn't deal with horses.
I do have my local knackerman's number in my phone, though.


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## MosMum (9 November 2010)

Echo Bravo said:



			Mozmum you came over that we are the super race. We are not, the human race has caused more destruction to other species. I'm sure your grandchildren will grow up wondering what a sparrow is. I'd like to see a lot of the low life, druggies rapists child abusers gotten ridden of.
		
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I'm sorry I came across like that to you. That isn't the point I was trying to make at all.

The fact of the matter is, however much evil humans do, the price for murdering a person will always be more severe in the eye of the law than the price for 'murdering' an animal. 

Child abuse will always be more taboo than animal abuse.

That is because human life is commonly viewed as having more worth than animal life. That's why we eat animals, not our young. 

Absolutely agree that mankind has a lot to answer for.


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## JanetGeorge (9 November 2010)

enfys said:



			If I have a horse I want put down I just phone a farmer, he does the job and then I bury it. The abbatoir that deals with our cattle and lambs don't take horses.
		
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Good grief - where do you live!  Round here, VERY few farmers will have anything other than a shotgun and I can't BEGIN to think of their reaction if you asked them to shoot a horse!!

I have two choices:  the vet - who will shoot OR PTS by injection depending on what I want for that horse; or the local hunt, who will shoot and take away.  I choose whichever is likely to be quickest - and least stressful - for the individual horse.


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## The Virgin Dubble (9 November 2010)

TicTac said:



			Doesn't bother me but you can't expect people not to express an opinion. Surely as a responsible horse owner you should know the name of a slaughter man local to you, or ask somebody with a horse in your area etc.

You know as well as I do that these kinds of threads are always emotive, my point is you can't always expect people to agree with you. Public forum, public response!
		
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Public forum also means that she has the right to ask a question without asking for your permission first...


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## MurphysMinder (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			You are a horse hating member who takes great pleasure in killing them. Clearly you are employed there with all your 'inside' info. What the hell are you doing here??
		
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Is it wrong that I find this statement hilarious?!


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## spaniel (9 November 2010)

No MM I think many of us have found a great deal of amusement in OTY's offerings.


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## SirenaXVI (9 November 2010)

No MM not wrong - I personally found it hysterical


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## threeponies (9 November 2010)

Surely if NativePonies bought three ponies from Mr Potter's field ( i'm assuming these ponies were to be slaughtered, please correct me if wrong) and they are now being ridden/cared for/enjoyed, there is absolutely no reason to be calling her a 'horse hating member'?


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## The Virgin Dubble (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			I am not being rude or abusive. I am merely stating facts of life I have learned through my own experiences. And yeah, I do find it rather odd, that on a forum meant for horse lovers, that so many people think it's right to kill a healthy, but "dangerous" animal. Especially since it was probably through their own mismanagement that caused the behaviours in the first place. I'd also like to know what the deal is with NativePonies. Besides that of advocating the slaughter of horse on every given occasion. I also find it rather strange that someone who will eat horsemeat, but not from their own animal.

I'm not against the slaughter of horses, but of ALL animals. You can fool yourselves into thinking abattoirs are squeaky clean, but undercover footage shows time and time again they are far from humane or professional. When it's my Guy's time, he is going at home by injection, then buried. Put down by a competent vet (who become one because of their love of animals). NOT by someone whose sole job is killing them, so therefore could not give two hoots about them when they were alive.
		
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No words, just....


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## Enfys (9 November 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			Good grief - where do you live!  Round here, VERY few farmers will have anything other than a shotgun and I can't BEGIN to think of their reaction if you asked them to shoot a horse!!

.
		
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Canada. 

My Vet can be up to 4 hours from me, useless in an emergency. Whereas I have a cattle farmer within a mile of me that can, and will, put a horse out of misery cleanly and efficiently. I couldn't wait hours for the Vet when my horse had his leg hanging off. 

I can't imagine any of the British farmers I knew being willing to shoot a horse either, plenty of huntsmen over there though. My closest pack is over 40 miles away. My horses in the UK went to the kennels, their last thought was "Goody, hunting..." (or whatever horse think) great way to go.


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## lauraandjack (9 November 2010)

Always better a certain death than an uncertain future.

I think a little less anthropomorphism would be helpful in this situation.

- the vast majority of tame well handled horses do not find transport particularly stressful, even if they don't travel regularly.
- horses have no perception of where they are being taken.
- they have no idea what the abbatoir is or what is going to happen there.  It is surely no different or more stressful than say, taking a youngster into an indoor school for the first time.

Of course no one is going to send their faithful old friend to be made into pedigree chum.  But honestly, for horses that are otherwise unwanted, what is really so bad about it, as long as their death is quick and humane?


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## Jesstickle (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			What "whole story" would that be exactly?? I've read other posts saying "oh you don't know NP," "if you knew her, you would mince your words." I have never been enlightened on the bigger picture. It's like Patty and her miraculous evidence that would have cleared JG's name. It was promised, but never delivered. Who is NP exactly? Do tell!!

You eat horse, but not your own. There's nothing like double standards, eh??
		
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I wasn't trying to imply some huge conspiracy. Jeez. Merely that if you hang around a bit longer you will realise that although NP can be direct she talks a lot of sense. Besides if you can't work her out from those lovely pics of those ponies she (aghh I can't think of a better word than rescued and I know if I say that she'll tell me off!) whatevered then I can't help you.

And I suppose it is double standards to not want to eat my own horses. There isn't much I can do about that though. They are my pets but the horses I am eating are no ones pets. It shouldn't make a difference I suppose but it does. Such is life I suppose.


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## *hic* (9 November 2010)

threeponies said:



			Surely if NativePonies bought three ponies from Mr Potter's field ( i'm assuming these ponies were to be slaughtered, please correct me if wrong) and they are now being ridden/cared for/enjoyed, there is absolutely no reason to be calling her a 'horse hating member'?
		
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Yup - nail on head there! They look like cracking little ponies. Shame on the breeders who bred too many to cope but kudos to NP who saw them and has turned their lives around.

"Horse hating" couldn't really be further from the truth.

If you look back through recent posts you'll see she's recently picked up a rather nice little Newfie with one eye. The horse hating member has already cleaned him up and is taking him out for walks round the local area as the start of turning him into a nice well handled and bombproofed pony.


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## Echo Bravo (9 November 2010)

To be honest OVER2YOU. Most of us on this Forum are realalistic(hope I've spelt that right). Horses like beef cattle,pigs,chickens,goats,sheep go for slaughter. Those that can keep our horses through illness or old age if you've read a lot of posts on here have them put down when they have too. But sometimes a price comes into it, I personaly don't like it, but I would never judge another person because they do, each to their own. I hope I never have to judge you, or you me.


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## Tinseltoes (9 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			with the chance of being accused that i am an employee i can, once again, answer this..

no, they DO NOT starve them..infact, not 2 miles from my home is a holding field owned by Mr Potter..that is ATM empty..but sometimes it has up to 30-50 ponies in there..they are there anything from 2 weeks to a few months..

here are pictures of some i took last summer..the 2 roan ponies and the bay pony i bought from Mr Potter..they are now riding ponies..


























ponies at my yard..
3yr old colt..now a gelding





3yr old filly





3yr old colt..now a gelding





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Well done on saving those ponies,they are lovely. Whats their names?


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## Black_Horse_White (9 November 2010)

What is the most single thing we as human beings fear the most, answer death! Life is very precious it's all we have. The same goes for animals ending any life should not be entered into lightly. The OP has made the right decision for her circumstances and we should all respect that. As long as it's painless and without distress to the pony then so be it. No one should be allowed to play god, but unfortunately lots do and its a fact of life. So we will all have to agree to differ, and do the best we can for our animals.


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## nativetyponies (9 November 2010)

sharon, i named them James, (top roan) Jemima and Ritchie (bay)


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## vixann (9 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			I am not being rude or abusive. I am merely stating facts of life I have learned through my own experiences. And yeah, I do find it rather odd, that on a forum meant for horse lovers, that so many people think it's right to kill a healthy, but "dangerous" animal. Especially since it was probably through their own mismanagement that caused the behaviours in the first place. I'd also like to know what the deal is with NativePonies. Besides that of advocating the slaughter of horse on every given occasion. I also find it rather strange that someone who will eat horsemeat, but not from their own animal.

I'm not against the slaughter of horses, but of ALL animals. You can fool yourselves into thinking abattoirs are squeaky clean, but undercover footage shows time and time again they are far from humane or professional. When it's my Guy's time, he is going at home by injection, then buried. Put down by a competent vet (who become one because of their love of animals). NOT by someone whose sole job is killing them, so therefore could not give two hoots about them when they were alive.
		
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"Especially since it was probably through their own mismanagement that caused the behaviours in the first place"

How dare you?


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## vixann (9 November 2010)

vixann said:



			PS Last year I had my lovely (well quite bitchy but only to ppl who she didn't like!) big young mare put down - She wouldn't die - the vet said she had never seen anything like it and usually had to use a max of 2 bottles (of pentobarb or wateva it was) and that was for natives - she was a tb x wb and took 3 full bottles and around 20 mins of gasping and trying to get up, cutting her head open and it was an awful experience. not great considering she didnt like vets and needles and was even sedated i/m before we began. - Not always the best way to go but you only generally find these things out wen u have experienced them yourself.
		
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TicTac said:



			And now you have another ' difficult ' horse to get rid of?
		
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Over2You said:



			Yep. *DON'T* understand it - *KILL* it. *MUST* be dangerous - *KILL* it. *MIGHT* have a brain tumour - *KILL* it. 

What kind of a world is it when we don't give a second thought to getting rid of a sentient being as if it were a carton of milk past its best before date.
		
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vixann said:



			I never said she was difficult!! she was a bitch to ppl she didnt like - ppl who were nervous around her but all in all she was a fab horse -  she was pts due to 1. a fractured sesamoid bine which would never heal and never be cured by surgery so she was put in field to rest for 18 month to see what happened and then 2. a few months later she went through the fence and ripped all the skin and muscle from her hind leg - dont try and make out i dont know what I am doing!!! - and dont judge.
		
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PS I am still waiting for an apology from TicTac for this uninformed outburst re another difficult horse???


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## Echo Bravo (9 November 2010)

Sorry about your mare VIXANN and yes TICTAC and OVER2YOU should apologize.


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## ElphabaFae (9 November 2010)

I haven't read the whole thread but in my view, compared to how some of the horses are killed outside of this country and the suffering they go through how can you say a bullet is not humane? Not everyone has the money to spend on pts by injection or the cost of cremation therefore they are bad horse owners for sending their horse to a place like Potters..I think not! I would much rather know that if I had a horse that the horse had been been pts rather then passed around place to place suffering god knows what because I wasn't brave enough to make such a decision. And as for these 'healthy' horses that our friends at Animal Aid are suggesting they have been 'murdering' I am interested to know if they preformed a post mortem on any of them, as just because it looks healthy doesn't mean it hasn't got a brain tumour or another disease. I know of a horse that had a brain tumour who was perfectly healthy then one day he completed flipped and went over backwards on a car, needless to say he was pts. The vet said there was no way to have known and he was perfectly healthy overwise...


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## Meowy Catkin (9 November 2010)

The problem is, there really are worse things than a quick death.


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## The Virgin Dubble (9 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			sharon, i named them James, (top roan) Jemima and Ritchie (bay)
		
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Jeez, you might be a good horsewoman, but you are shite at choosing names...


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## *hic* (9 November 2010)

dubble said:



			Jeez, you might be a good horsewoman, but you are shite at choosing names...  

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OI, I was just thinking what a charming name one of them had and in what good taste.!


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## Jesstickle (9 November 2010)

dubble said:



			Jeez, you might be a good horsewoman, but you are shite at choosing names...  

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Hehe


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## Jesstickle (9 November 2010)

jemima_too said:



			Why don't you have a go at me instead? You obviously haven't read all the thread or you'd know I was considering buying foals for a guinea to keep for meat for my own personal consumption! They're WAY cheaper than piglets! I already murder them and little fluffy white sheepies.

(Sorry FC but I can't resist)
		
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Or me if you like. I used to work at Huntingdon Life Sciences. I must definitely be the devil. 

Now that probably will genuinely shock some people. But hey. Life isn't fluffy and lovely.


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## Dolcé (9 November 2010)

jemima_too said:



			Why don't you have a go at me instead? You obviously haven't read all the thread or you'd know I was considering buying foals for a guinea to keep for meat for my own personal consumption! They're WAY cheaper than piglets! I already murder them and little fluffy white sheepies.

(Sorry FC but I can't resist)
		
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What are you like!!! LOL


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## The Virgin Dubble (9 November 2010)

jemima_too said:



			OI, I was just thinking what a charming name one of them had and in what good taste.!
		
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 Sorry!!!! 

I like them all for humans, but not for horses just like I hate names like Zac for boys because it's a dogs name. 

And on that note I am going to back away slowly before an irate mother informs me that their offspring is called Zac.....


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## 3DE (9 November 2010)

Let;s get this back on topic - the 'other' thread has now been deleted.

Anyone have anything more to add?


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## ofcourseyoucan (9 November 2010)

FFS the op only asked for the price of a carcass. better a nutty horse be PTS than injure several people and go round and round the market from pillar to post. fair play to the OP she is being responsible for her horse, and for the horses future. once they are dead they are dead end of...


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## Dolcé (9 November 2010)

ofcourseyoucan said:



			FFS the op only asked for the price of a carcass. better a nutty horse be PTS than injure several people and go round and round the market from pillar to post. fair play to the OP she is being responsible for her horse, and for the horses future. once they are dead they are dead end of...
		
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Whispers..........I don't think OP did ask about carcass price, she just wanted to know contact details!

doh, think I misunderstood your post because of all the 'touchy' talk about carcass price earlier, ignore my whispering!


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## mcnaughty (9 November 2010)

vixann said:



			I wasnt the one who asked for prices per kg etc if you read back.
		
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Actually cannot be bothered to trawl back through that lot but if it was not you then apologies to you, but my statement stands - taking the point too far to discuss £ per lb in my opinion.


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## mcnaughty (9 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			weirdo.

go and do something useful...
		
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Um yes - I have to agree nativeponies - that was uncalled for and very wierd.


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## vixann (9 November 2010)

mcnaughty said:



			Actually cannot be bothered to trawl back through that lot but if it was not you then apologies to you, but my statement stands - taking the point too far to discuss £ per lb in my opinion.
		
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page 1 + 2 i think?


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## *hic* (9 November 2010)

dubble said:



 Sorry!!!! 

I like them all for humans, but not for horses just like I hate names like Zac for boys because it's a dogs name. 

And on that note I am going to back away slowly before an irate mother informs me that their offspring is called Zac.....  

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*snigger*


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## Mavis007 (9 November 2010)

Maesfen said:



			Don't take this the wrong way and I'm very likely wrong but that statement worried me and gives me the impression you could be a fluffy vet; if you're not, I apologise.
I've known a fair few vet students that have since passed out to be useful sensible vets; not one of them ever mentioned about dreading the abattoir trips or other reactions because they wanted and needed to learn everything there they could; it's all part of being a vet or a doctor, you have to have the mind and stomach to be prepared and able to deal with both the giving and taking/losing life.
		
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Don't think anyone could ever accuse me of being fluffy. I don't feel like I have eaten a "proper" meal unless it contains meat and can't stand vegetarians that won't eat fluffy animals. I like seeing animals in the countryside. However I will only eat British meat. I had no problem dealing with anything else but being "horsey" and growing up on a diet on girls "pony books" (which I think have a lot to answer for in many ways) I was, like many people brainwashed against horse abbatoirs. The reality was totally different to how I had imagined. I think anyone on here complaining about them should experience the facts first. I PTS animals on a virtually daily basis and although sad, I am very glad I can perform this service to prevent animals suffering. Keeping horses alive to be passed from unknowledgable home to home and get neglected or be in pain is far worse than a quick painless death, not even comparable IMHO.


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## Jim Moriarty (9 November 2010)

mcnaughty said:



			but my statement stands - taking the point too far to discuss £ per lb in my opinion.
		
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Yeah, you've already made that point;



mcnaughty said:



			to go on to ask about prices is too close to the nail for some on here
		
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So, no harm in my repeating my reply...

_Well, perhaps 'some on here' should keep out of the thread then..._


I've found this thread (and _that_ question) of great interest, and the question perfectly valid. Some of the responses, alas, have been highly emotive, sensational, and illogical..


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## martlin (9 November 2010)

And I will repeat my answer:
It was me who asked about prices per kilo and killing out rate (live weight to dead weight conversion) and I am not ashamed of it in any way, shape or form.


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## el_Snowflakes (9 November 2010)

cm2581 said:



			You weren't asked for your opinion on that matter.
		
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well your in the wrong place then, as this is a forum


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## the_sophies (9 November 2010)

Mavis007 said:



			(I) can't stand vegetarians
		
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You hate them because they don't eat meat?  I'm totally not a 'Bunny Hugger' but does that not seem a bit illogical?

ETA -  I don't eat meat because I think it tastes disgusting.  The thought of eating something's flesh (for want of a better word!) makes me shudder.  But I have no problem with other people choosing to eat meat, and I have no problem with slaughterhouses as long as the process is quick, humane and efficient.


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## 0ldmare (9 November 2010)

Fairynuff said:



			re the 'lethal injection'...those of you who claim to have witnessed prolonged and agonising deaths obviously have vets who are not carrying out the euthanisation properly. All horses in Italy are euthanised via injection unless they are entering the meat chain. Vets here are legally required to   1, sedate the horse.  2, anaesthetize the horse and 3, only when horse is FULLY unconcious, administer the 'lethal injection'. All those euthanised here on my yard and in the 2 clinics Ive worked in, were mainlined so had only 1 needle inserted and ALL died peacefully and quickly. The product used for the actual 'killing' is called 'Tanax' and is composed of 3 different 'drugs'. One acts as a narcotic and causes paralysis to the respiratory centre, the second one acts on the muscles involved with breathing (paralysing them) and the third is a local anaesthetic which, in horses makes no diff as they are already unconscious, but seemingly is important in small animals as there is no duty to anaesthetize them before using Tanax (I have no idea why and find it incongruous!). Maybe its about time that GB vets changed their methods of LJ euthanising if all these horses are having such horrific deaths at their hands.
		
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That's interesting fairynuff, I've only had experience of 1 horse being PTS by lethal injection and they certainly didn't aesthetise her first. I think that sounds a good idea! That said, my experience was positive (if you can call it that). The mare, who was 32, had gone down and despite much effort couldn't be got up again. After the lethal injection she breathed deeply a couple of times and that was it. Very quick. The horrible stories of botched injections would, however, certainly make me quastion using that method next time


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## Mavis007 (9 November 2010)

Sorry, a bit of an over-exaggeration. And not really relevant to this thread. People are entitled to like and dislike whatever they want. But if they won't eat fluffy animals AND try to force it down my throat that eating meat that has been humanely looked after and slaughtered, that's when I get cross. But entirely irrelevant to this thread. Was a bit horrified by being described as "fluffy" as am anything but


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## the_sophies (9 November 2010)

Mavis007 said:



			Sorry, a bit of an over-exaggeration. And not really relevant to this thread. People are entitled to like and dislike whatever they want. But if they won't eat fluffy animals AND try to force it down my throat that eating meat that has been humanely looked after and slaughtered, that's when I get cross. But entirely irrelevant to this thread. Was a bit horrified by being described as "fluffy" as am anything but 

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Can totally understand that! Sometimes I think there is a bit of a 'holier than thou' thing going on...


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## mcnaughty (9 November 2010)

vixann said:



			page 1 + 2 i think?
		
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Yes, Vixann - statement above still stands.


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## Maesfen (9 November 2010)

Thanks for taking my comment that way Mavis!  I did apologise for it when I said it and I hadn't even thought about looking at it from the 'Jill books' POV; makes it perfectly understandable now.

Still glad to know you're not a Fluff though!


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## el_Snowflakes (9 November 2010)

Caz89 said:



			"As we walked through the holding pen, a gunshot went off. Two young thoroughbreds jumped and began biting each other's necks, which were covered in red welts"

Can I suggest that you take the time to read the link .... http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/oct/01/horseracing.sport 

People who say "I can't afford to have the horse pts" quite simply shouldn't have a horse if you arn't able to meet the needs of it. We all know a time will come when they will need to be pts or they die and should be prepared financially and mentally. When your family members get old, your dogs and cats, your husband/wife will you send them to like a concentration camp?? Queing to die which is what these horses do! I'm not saying it's wrong to put horses down if that's the last route but after reading the above link It makes me feel sick that people are naive enough to think that horses cannot sense death and danger especially when it happens so close to the live horses  If they are going to do it can't one horse be taken at a time to a seperate shooting area far away from the live animals ? No because this is to much hassle for them as they are going to die anyway 

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My thoughts exactly Caz


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## mcnaughty (9 November 2010)

JimMoriarty said:



			Yeah, you've already made that point;



So, no harm in my repeating my reply...

_Well, perhaps 'some on here' should keep out of the thread then..._


I've found this thread (and _that_ question) of great interest, and the question perfectly valid. Some of the responses, alas, have been highly emotive, sensational, and illogical..
		
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Jim - you have made your point and I have made my point, but at no point have I called your posts emotive, sensational and illogical.  I also have as much right as you to read and post on threads here.  We all have opinions and we are all entitled to post as we see fit so long as it is not abusive to other users.

I believe that shooting a horse is the best way to end it's life and if you own the animal then you should be able to choose how, where and when that happens.  However, I do not believe that this is the place to discuss some the issues raised in this post.  That is my opinion - I am not "dissing" in any way your views but I have a right to state my beliefs.  End of.


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## el_Snowflakes (9 November 2010)

pastie2 said:



			If a horse has to go surely the current market price per kilo is irrellavent(sp). It just has to go. I am also of the opinion that this post was unecessary.
		
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absolutely.......OP is clearly either trolling or has come to the wrong place


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## Jim Moriarty (9 November 2010)

mcnaughty said:



			Jim - you have made your point and I have made my point, but at no point have I called your posts emotive, sensational and illogical.
		
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And neither I yours, hence the double spacing/discontinuation, suggesting a more general (rather than specific) observation, hence the term 'some'.


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## vixann (9 November 2010)

elsazzo said:



			absolutely.......OP is clearly either trolling or has come to the wrong place
		
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like i said ...................................................


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## mcnaughty (9 November 2010)

JimMoriarty said:



			And neither I yours, hence the double spacing/discontinuation, suggesting a more general (rather than specific) observation, hence the term 'some'.
		
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Then perhaps no comment would be better than general "observation" of some....


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## martlin (9 November 2010)

elsazzo said:



			absolutely.......OP is clearly either trolling or has come to the wrong place
		
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How many times does the OP have to tell you? She didn't ask about price per kilo, I did.


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## Jesstickle (9 November 2010)

Well then Martlin, you must be the troll


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## martlin (9 November 2010)

jesstickle said:



			Well then Martlin, you must be the troll 

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Not really, I just wanted to know, so I asked


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## Jesstickle (9 November 2010)

martlin said:



			Not really, I just wanted to know, so I asked 

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I know! I probably should have finished that by saying what a ridiculous nonsense it is that anyone is supposed to be a troll in this. It was just a question after all. Not even an emotive one which the OP asked.


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## sprytzer (9 November 2010)

PollyP99 said:



			Whilst not wishing to agree with Over2You's outburst re 'Nativeponies' I would have to say that having only been a member on here for a few weeks I have yet to read a post from NP that is not pro-killing in some form or just downright rude.

I see it that 'she/he' is intentionally trying to goad people into entering an argument, best not to rise to it.

ps, I agree that death comes to us all but who would willingly watch their horse hanging on a hook.....a step too far NP.
		
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Maybe NP lives in the real world and not fluffy bunny land!!


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## pastie2 (9 November 2010)

vixann said:



			This wont be a popular post and I don't want peoples opinions please if you are going to say the usual rubbish
Does anyone know how much ponies are bringing at the moment?
7yo 14hh stocky native type?
Thanks
		
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OK so kilos were not mentioned, splitting hairs?


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## Dolcé (9 November 2010)

martlin said:



			How many times does the OP have to tell you? She didn't ask about price per kilo, I did.
		
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I think some people don't want to hear it.........!

I think this thread has been really informative and, in addition to the original question, has thrown up lots of 'food for thought' for anyone that may have to consider PTS in the future.  I always thought LI would be the 'nicest' way to go (although would go for shoot/CB for speed) but is now something I would not consider, I couldn't imagine dealing with one of my babies not being killed outright instantly.  Personally I would prefer the hunt but as we are no longer close to one then would expect it to be knacker man, however, if we were close enough I would definitely go to Potters providing I could be with them until the deed was done.  It has been an emotional thread, probably more so for Vixann, who has had to put up with many personal comments and judgements made by people who don't know the facts behind her decision, but I think, in fairness, that had to be expected with this topic.


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## Jim Moriarty (9 November 2010)

mcnaughty said:



			Then perhaps no comment would be better than general "observation" of some....
		
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Well, excuse me all over the place! 







FFS, some people - cranium, anus, extract ASAP...


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## maletto (9 November 2010)

If you all wanna get technical, the OP did ask about how much money you would get for a pony. 

not a big deal and I do still agree with the un-fluffies that there are far worse fates than death, and far worse ways to go than a well-run slaughterhouse but just wanted to be pedantic....


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## snaptie (9 November 2010)

the_sophies said:



			Straffan, IRE.  My uncle used to send his old hunters.  Maybe the process is different in Britain, or things may have changed.  Either way, I wouldn't send one of mine.
		
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I think that has closed now, hasn't it? Though for reasons other than welfare. 

I used to live nearby for a while, what a wretched place. He had thousands of horses in and around the area. Things lying dead in fields during the winter, untreated strangles and general neglect, reselling those sent in trust as well a host of other underhand and unpleasant goings on. Certainly seeing that would put you off and I can't blame you. 

For me, seeing what happened there compared to footage of Stilman's is a world away. At least there there is consideration of the horse or pony. There is some question of how the injured chestnut mare ended up in that state and of course there will be the nervous that play up. They are handled by competent personnelle. For the most it seems to be standing there, then already dead and unaware without fear, suffering or duress.


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## Tankey (10 November 2010)

elsazzo said:



			absolutely.......OP is clearly either trolling or has come to the wrong place
		
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Once upon a time, this forum used to be a great place to ask for proper decent advice from experienced people living in the real world. A thread like this would have provided an informed discussion about the best ways of ending your animals life when the time comes, who to go to, where, how etc.

Now it has been taken over by the fluffy bunny brigade, you have to sift through the hysteria to get to decent answers.

A REAL horse lover, will plan their horses death from the moment they buy it.
Once an animal is dead, then it is dead. It doesnt matter if it is used for posh French food or cheap dog food...its dead......


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## x1xpixiex1x (10 November 2010)

I cant imagine having my baby PTS but I think it is a difficult decision for anybody. I do think that OP is being very responsible and having the pony PTS before it injures itself or others around it, god forbid! Too many horse and ponies are sold dishonestly. I would love to take on a horse or pony in need of a loving home but I would never take on a dangerous one, for the welfare of my horse I already have, myself and others on the yard. o and finances!

I have to admit I have learnt a lot from this thread despite the childish and bitchiness comments in between (O2Y). 

IMO as long as the horse or pony's suffering was not prolonged and it was PTS humanly then what's the problem? The horses aren't suffering any pain and nor do they know what's happening. Not saying I condone abattoirs and nor would I have my little girl taken to one but that's my personal preference.

There are way too many horse and ponies breed and then sent to sales or just end up homeless. I think the breeding issues need to be addressed.

BTW NP I absolutely adore your bay and good on you for taking on the lovely ponies  If I had the facilities I would love to do the same. I wish you all the best with them.


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## tonkatoy (10 November 2010)

who'd have thought asking for a phone number would produce 38pages??!!!!!

lol


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## suzi (10 November 2010)

Have been away from the internet for a few days so have just sat here and read the whole thread!

I've found it (generally) very informative and it has opened my eyes to some of the options available to me.

I've had to ponies PTS in the last 4 years and opted to have them both done my lethal injection.  Although I wasn't there I was told by vet and my OH that it was peaceful and quick.

Now I'm sure there are several people who will consider me a wimp for not being there right to the end but TBH you are right.  If there was no other option then I would be there but if I can avoid it then I will.  I'm sure this makes me a fluffy bunny but that's just me!

That said it wouldn't in any way change my mind about the decision that has to be made.

I've been very interested to read the accounts of people who have been to Potters.  I couldn't bring myself to watch the vidoes (I get horrendous nightmares from things like that - I know that's bad for someone who's 26!) but found the first hand accounts very informative.

While this is not a method I would choose for my horses if I was in a position to make that decision it is good to know that there are other options that I could consider if the need arose.  Prior to reading this thread I wouldn't have considered an abbatior an option at all for me.  This was not because of any propaganda as such but generally due to a 'feeling' about the whole thing.  So thank you for opening my eyes.

I don't like the thought of horses and ponies going to slaughter unnecessarily but I do accept that this happens.  I also agree that this is a far better end than being passed from pillar to post and being subjected to potential neglect and an uncertain future.

OP - if the pony is dangerous then you are doing the right thing by PTS.  Far better this than risk the lives of others.  Having put so much time into trying to solve the problem it can't be an easy decision to make.

At some point along the line the thread seemed to move off into the topic of horses for human consumption.  I've never eaten horse and I'm not sure whether I would or not mainly as I'd be concerned about the welfare etc leading up to slaughter.  If I could be reassured about this then I'm sure I'd probably try it.  After all, I've eaten a lamb that I've bottle fed and pork that I'd rubbed sun cream onto it's ears to stop them from burning.

Me thinks I'm starting to ramble on now - hadn't realised how late it had got while I was reading this post. . . .


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## YorksG (10 November 2010)

We have had one mare shot in the stable next to her pair bond of 20 years, the one left alive did not seem to notice. She grieved for her friend, but took no notice of the actual death and was not worried when her turn came some years later. We have had one killed by lethal injection and several shot, will always have future horses shot. We have a friend who has a mixed livestock farm, she also has horses, they are kept on the farm and many have been turned away/retired, however when their time comes they are travelled to Turners. I can assure you that they are no less well cared for than anyone elses horses.


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## missyme10 (10 November 2010)

I have found this to be a most informative thread, I always knew of the existance of potters and turners but that was about it, I had no idea where they were or how horses were slaughtered.

In theory I see no difference in a horse, cow, sheep or pig being slaughtered, they are all animals at the end of the day.

But there is one significant difference, to most horses are much loved pets, and not a commercial commodity, hence they are viewed differently to cattle for example.
With cattle, they were bred and raised with the intention of slaughter always, so the emotional attachment isn't there.

I think this is where difference of opinion often lies with some, those who love their horses as just pets probably wouldn't use an abbatoir, but those who are maybe involved commercially with horses, or have the view that horses are working animals would, or just those that think well death is death no matter what.

I find some opinions on both sides rather insulting, ie. those that think slaughter in this way is wrong must be a fluffy bunny and those that have no issue with it have no interest in the horse, and are bad people etc.
Lack of understanding on both sides I think.

One other point I would like to make is those that favour abbatoirs are of course going to have no issues with the method of handling of killing, but that doens't mean others should and will find it acceptable.

I have no issue with anyone who has their horse pts regardless of method if the horse is dangerous, or if a horse can no longer be afforded and no alternative home can be found, or even if injured and no longer workable and the person wishes to have a working horse, but I do feel some come across as having so little regard for a horses life, thats its no big deal to kill a horse. 
These animals serve humans in whatever capacity we choose and in some cases do so with little complaint for years, and I do honesty feel that some dump them at abbatoirs like I dump my mouldy loaf in the kitchen bin, this is the only part that really gets me, some so clearly have no regard for life ie. no money in that one, slaughter house.

So basically I think anyone who uses potters and turners on a regular basis is no horse lover, but someone who sees horses as commercial commodity, ie most £ dead or alive!
Nothing necessarily wrong with this, but frequently these people will also claim to love horses, I'm sorry but the two dont go hand in hand


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## Vixxy (10 November 2010)

I think it is also a question of practicalities/being realistic. Many HHOers are on my Facebook and know how I fuss and care for my horses however, I have had experience of horses being sent for meat in my childhood without any upset over the meat part (just that they were going to be PTS). In adult life I have had 2 PTS by the vet and buried on my land. I was there for the last two, to me it makes no difference as long as the end is very quick and accurate. I am the soppiest horse owner you could ever meet but realistic also, a dead horse is a dead horse which ever way you look at it. The sadness is all there which ever way they go, why the big uproar about using the body for meat?

I think perhaps it is the farming people who are more realistic, having had a large dairy herd and also raising bulls for meat myself I have no problem with this concept.

I feel the same way as Amy may and the others who have voiced a similar opinion.


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## Aces_High (10 November 2010)

I am still shocked at the pathetic attitude from so many people on this forum.  Animals INCLUDING horses have no foresight or ability to predict what might happen.  Why does a flighty horse jump out in front of a car?  It's not thinking oh - I might get hit and end up with a broken leg and put to sleep, it doesn't know as it's an animal.  Humans are the ones with foresight and the ability to know what could happen.  Therefore the horses at abattoirs do not realise that they are there to be killed and when a fellow pen horse gets led away that it's going to be shot.  They have no idea.  When it's their turn they walk in - job done quickly on to the next.  It's a fact of life - horses are shot thankfully mostly in a humane manner.  They are also bred for meat in parts of the world but who are we to judge.  I ate Zebra in S Africa and gasp I've eaten horse in France does that make me an awful person.  No it doesn't.  Grow up and get a life - I do respect vegetarians but struggle to cook for them when I am having a dinner party espec if they don't eat fish either!!
Just to add - few racehorses go into the food chain for human consumption - they'd go for pet food.  Which I think is great as they are not tossed aside to defend themselves in poor conditions.


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## frannieuk (10 November 2010)

Tankey said:



			Once upon a time, this forum used to be a great place to ask for proper decent advice from experienced people living in the real world. A thread like this would have provided an informed discussion about the best ways of ending your animals life when the time comes, who to go to, where, how etc.

Now it has been taken over by the fluffy bunny brigade, you have to sift through the hysteria to get to decent answers.

A REAL horse lover, will plan their horses death from the moment they buy it.
Once an animal is dead, then it is dead. It doesnt matter if it is used for posh French food or cheap dog food...its dead......
		
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This is 100% how I feel, and not just about the meat man!
Having recently seen the "anti" footage of Potters, I actually found it very reassuring, and whilst my current situation is such that I would hopefully have my horse PTS at her yard (should it be required!) I would have no hesitation in using Potters should things change.


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## Amymay (10 November 2010)

PollyP99 said:



			Whilst not wishing to agree with Over2You's outburst re 'Nativeponies' I would have to say that having only been a member on here for a few weeks I have yet to read a post from NP that is not pro-killing in some form or just downright rude.

I see it that 'she/he' is intentionally trying to goad people into entering an argument, best not to rise to it.

ps, I agree that death comes to us all but who would willingly watch their horse hanging on a hook.....a step too far NP.
		
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Ah Polly, like so many you absolutely miss the point, and totally misunderstand the person.

Most of us (and I include myself in that) walk away when our horse is put down.  It takes courage of conviction and a real sense of responsibility to see the process through to the end - what ever method is used.

NP has given us a clear description of what actually happens at an abbatoir - because she has been responsible enough to watch the process from beginning to end, not shying away from the sensitivities that afflict all of us.  That takes a huge amount of courage - because regardless of how one feels, it is not a nice or comfortable thing to watch.

Those who have very strong opinions on abbatoir have formed them through ignorance - not through experience.


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## nativetyponies (10 November 2010)

As this is an open forum it's great that, within reason, we all can voice an opinion.

But when it gets to the point where people who, by their own admission, haven't experienced a situation, then at that point their POV is null and void.

Opinion is just that, actual experience is a whole different ball-game.

TBH I'm at a loss as to how a few posters on here can say i'm not a horse lover/that i shouldn't be here/i'm uncaring? 

I have taken ponies that i've owned to Potters..i've even taken other peoples horses because, in their words "i KNOW you will see it through to the end and he wont be sold on"..that speaks volumes to me as they trust me to do "the right thing" ATT.
and, as you can see, i've taken ponies FROM the Slaughterhouse

I say to them...Why? What have I written on this forum at any time for that conclusion to be reached?

As i'm sure I can't work it out?


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## eahotson (10 November 2010)

Been following this post a bit.I think it was bound to be emotive.When people are upset they sometimes lash out and say things that they may wish they hadn't in cooler circumstances.In theory I have no objection to horses being destroyed, albeit as humanely as possible and it can be the kindest and most practical option.Potters and others can be as good as anywhere I expect but if I have to have mine destroyed (hopefully not for a very long time) I shall use the vet or knackerman at home (his) if I can.


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## *hic* (10 November 2010)

I suspect it's because these people are too many generations removed from having had horses as working animals. Which gives me an idea!


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## vixann (10 November 2010)

Just to slightly change the subject - does anyone have any experience with crossing herefords with beef shorthorns?


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## Amymay (10 November 2010)

I'm not against the slaughter of horses, but of ALL animals.
		
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*Over2You - and Tic Tac, as you are both so vocal in your objections*

Can you tell me what your solution would be then for the thousands of horses and ponies who go through the market ring every year - who are destined for meat?

Who would you have take responsibility for them? - because clearly their owners or breeders want them sold.

We have a crisis in this country (as do Ireland) with the amount of unwanted stock.  In Ireland in particular the picture is pretty grim - with proposals having been made by the government to incentivise owners financially to have their horses put down - rather than abandon them and allow them to starve (because they can no longer afford them).

Welsh hill ponies aren't worth anything more than meat money at the moment - again no one is buying.  So what is their future??

I'm genuinly worried that so many people have little in the way of knowledge or experience of what actually goes on on the wider world.

So an answer please - what is your proposal??????

How do we manage the waste???


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## Caz89 (10 November 2010)

"Why does a flighty horse jump out in front of a car? It's not thinking oh - I might get hit and end up with a broken leg and put to sleep"

Do people do that when they walk out into the road and get hit?


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## natalia (10 November 2010)

"So basically I think anyone who uses potters and turners on a regular basis is no horse lover, but someone who sees horses as commercial commodity, ie most £ dead or alive!
Nothing necessarily wrong with this, but frequently these people will also claim to love horses, I'm sorry but the two dont go hand in hand "
__________________

I've kept my mouth shut on this one till now! Having sent horses to Potters you can't say I don't love horses! I sent them BECAUSE I love them! If you have anything to do with horses as a business you will know that some of them just are simply unsellable, dangerous or too messed up to be passed on. While I'm not adverse to selling a horse with some sort of use through  a market I wouldn't think of passing anything on with any serious metal or physical issues. Money dosen't grow on trees so if you can get back a couple of hundred pounds for a horse like this and know its future is secure then I don't see the problem as the money will only go towards another horse anyway! And before you shoot me down and say I'm heartless I bet I've given hundreds of needy horses a second chance thats they otherwise wouldn't have had over the years, from markets, private homes, dumped on me horses, foals who have been orphaned at dealers etc. What I haven't done is pass on anything thats not fit for a purpose "oh it's lame/terrified of being ridden/driven.... lets sell as a companion". The bunny huggers on here need to grow up, go back to the Intelligent horsemanship boards and leave us alone to discuss things in a sensible non sentimental manner.


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## Tinseltoes (10 November 2010)

natalia said:



			"So basically I think anyone who uses potters and turners on a regular basis is no horse lover, but someone who sees horses as commercial commodity, ie most £ dead or alive!
Nothing necessarily wrong with this, but frequently these people will also claim to love horses, I'm sorry but the two dont go hand in hand "
__________________

BULL*****! I've kept my mouth shut on this one till now! Having sent horses to Potters you can't say I don't love horses! I sent them BECAUSE I love them! If you have anything to do with horses as a business you will know that some of them just are simply unsellable, dangerous or too messed up to be passed on. While I'm not adverse to selling a horse with some sort of use through  a market I wouldn't think of passing anything on with any serious metal or physical issues. Money dosen't grow on trees so if you can get back a couple of hundred pounds for a horse like this and know its future is secure then I don't see the problem as the money will only go towards another horse anyway! And before you shoot me down and say I'm heartless I bet I've given hundreds of needy horses a second chance thats they otherwise wouldn't have had over the years, from markets, private homes, dumped on me horses, foals who have been orphaned at dealers etc. What I haven't done is pass on anything thats not fit for a purpose "oh it's lame/terrified of being ridden/driven.... lets sell as a companion". The bunny huggers on here need to grow up, piss off back to the Intelligent horsemanship boards and leave us alone to discuss things in a sensible non sentimental manner.
		
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No need for the abuse.


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## Maesfen (10 November 2010)

Natalia and Tankey are both like a breath of spring air; thank you.  Much better without the emotional blackmail others seem to want to pin on anyone for even thinking of using Potters and Turners.

Incidentally, this is great publicity for them isn't it?


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## *hic* (10 November 2010)

sharon1959 said:



			No need for the abuse.
		
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eh? What abuse?


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## nativetyponies (10 November 2010)

natalia said:



			"So basically I think anyone who uses potters and turners on a regular basis is no horse lover, but someone who sees horses as commercial commodity, ie most £ dead or alive!
Nothing necessarily wrong with this, but frequently these people will also claim to love horses, I'm sorry but the two dont go hand in hand "
__________________

BULL*****! I've kept my mouth shut on this one till now! Having sent horses to Potters you can't say I don't love horses! I sent them BECAUSE I love them! If you have anything to do with horses as a business you will know that some of them just are simply unsellable, dangerous or too messed up to be passed on. While I'm not adverse to selling a horse with some sort of use through  a market I wouldn't think of passing anything on with any serious metal or physical issues. Money dosen't grow on trees so if you can get back a couple of hundred pounds for a horse like this and know its future is secure then I don't see the problem as the money will only go towards another horse anyway! And before you shoot me down and say I'm heartless I bet I've given hundreds of needy horses a second chance thats they otherwise wouldn't have had over the years, from markets, private homes, dumped on me horses, foals who have been orphaned at dealers etc. What I haven't done is pass on anything thats not fit for a purpose "oh it's lame/terrified of being ridden/driven.... lets sell as a companion". The bunny huggers on here need to grow up, piss off back to the Intelligent horsemanship boards and leave us alone to discuss things in a sensible non sentimental manner.
		
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I agree with some of this.
Horses, whether we like it or not, ARE meat animals..God, my parents ate it on the blackmarket during WW2..They had NOTHING else!..except a few cockerels..
i buy and sell a few ponies per year, and by doing so, am classed as a "Dealer".,
they are well cared for, wormed, fed, watered, and their general well-being is catered for.
but...IF this is to be compromised by a serious illness, serious behavioural issues, permanant lameness issues, then they are taken to Potters..or if it something contagious, shot at the yard by the Knackerman.
The money i received ATT from Potters went straight back to buying fodder for those at home.
Horses/Ponies ARE seen by some a just £££'s..you only need to clock the "regulars" at markets to work that out...and of course, the one's i buy i "hope" to make a small profit on too..doesn't always happen though, but hey-ho.

Personally i would NEVER push an animal of mine onto someone else.
If it is permanantly lame/can't be ridden for whatever reason, then it would be PTS..it would not become someone elses problem. end of.

As for the "fluffies" on here..we are all entitled to an opinion..but as i said further up, an opinion is just that, experience is a different ball-game altogether.


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## nativetyponies (10 November 2010)

Maesfen said:



			Natalia and Tankey are both like a breath of spring air; thank you.  Much better without the emotional blackmail others seem to want to pin on anyone for even thinking of using Potters and Turners.

Incidentally, this is great publicity for them isn't it?
		
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Isn't it just?

SP has been informed of the thread.


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## martlin (10 November 2010)

vixann said:



			Just to slightly change the subject - does anyone have any experience with crossing herefords with beef shorthorns?
		
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No first hand experience, not for me (Shorthorns - horns), but I would imagine it would produce a nice animal.


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## Tankey (10 November 2010)

Maesfen said:



			Natalia and Tankey are both like a breath of spring air; thank you.  Much better without the emotional blackmail others seem to want to pin on anyone for even thinking of using Potters and Turners.

Incidentally, this is great publicity for them isn't it?
		
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These people irritate the hell out of me 
A horse is an animal, not 'your baby'
It couldnt care two hoots WHAT colour its flipping numnah is, or how much you spent on it...it also couldnt care what colour its haynet or bucket is, as long as there is hay and water.
At the end of the day, horses are just that.....horses. And I cant imagine they care how they are pts, as long as it is quick and painless.
If you havent planned for your horses death, then you are no horse lover in my view....just a bunny hugging ignoramous.

Oh and btw, those who imagine their horse dying naturally in a field while the sun is shining, or being pts by injection in a cosy stable...wake up and smell the coffee....it will probably be p1ssing hard with rain. 
How are you lot going to get your dead horse out of the stable....I tell you how...with tractors and chains around its neck , thats how.


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## Zebedee (10 November 2010)

Tankey said:



			These people irritate the hell out of me 
A horse is an animal, not 'your baby'
It couldnt care two hoots WHAT colour its flipping numnah is, or how much you spent on it...it also couldnt care what colour its haynet or bucket is, as long as there is hay and water.
At the end of the day, horses are just that.....horses. And I cant imagine they care how they are pts, as long as it is quick and painless.
If you havent planned for your horses death, then you are no horse lover in my view....just a bunny hugging ignoramous.
		
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Quoted because it was worth repeating.




			Oh and btw, those who imagine their horse dying naturally in a field while the sun is shining, or being pts by injection in a cosy stable...wake up and smell the coffee....it will probably be p1ssing hard with rain. 
How are you lot going to get your dead horse out of the stable....I tell you how...with tractors and chains around its neck , thats how.
		
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You forgot the bit about having to break its legs if rigour mortis has set in to get it out of the door.........


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## Tormenta (10 November 2010)

zebedee said:



			You forgot the bit about having to break its legs if rigour mortis has set in to get it out of the door.........
		
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Quite. Which is exactly what happened to a friend of mine when one of her youngsters died in the stable. Not nice at all but it does happen.


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## Amymay (10 November 2010)

Quote: Oh and btw, those who imagine their horse dying naturally in a field while the sun is shining, or being pts by injection in a cosy stable...wake up and smell the coffee....it will probably be p1ssing hard with rain.
How are you lot going to get your dead horse out of the stable....I tell you how...with tractors and chains around its neck , thats how.
		
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			You forgot the bit about having to break its legs if rigour mortis has set in to get it out of the door.........
		
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Quoted _again_ because they are both worth repeating!


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## nativetyponies (10 November 2010)

Tankey said:



			These people irritate the hell out of me 
A horse is an animal, not 'your baby'
It couldnt care two hoots WHAT colour its flipping numnah is, or how much you spent on it...it also couldnt care what colour its haynet or bucket is, as long as there is hay and water.
At the end of the day, horses are just that.....horses. And I cant imagine they care how they are pts, as long as it is quick and painless.
If you havent planned for your horses death, then you are no horse lover in my view....just a bunny hugging ignoramous.

Oh and btw, those who imagine their horse dying naturally in a field while the sun is shining, or being pts by injection in a cosy stable...wake up and smell the coffee....it will probably be p1ssing hard with rain. 
How are you lot going to get your dead horse out of the stable....I tell you how...with tractors and chains around its neck , thats how.
		
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And the WORST place logistically to have a horse shot is in the stable..

i've known a few that were PTS by injection by the Vet because its what the owner wanted..who are invariably never there!..and it couldn't be picked up by the knackerman til the next day..cue said knackerman having to snap the rigourmorticed joints to get the damn thing out!!!
very dignified for the horse, eh?

and as usual, said owner is nowhere to be seen..because they are "upset" that their ikkle baby has died!!


ETS..sorry cross posted


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## eahotson (10 November 2010)

Right as far as I can see the post is sharply divided. One lot says to have any horse destroyed under any circumstances anywhere is an act of gross cruelty.The other half says any animal without a use MUST be destroyed and at Potters because anything else is far too bunny huggery and totally wrong.No grey areas here is there?


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## Zebedee (10 November 2010)

eahotson said:



			Right as far as I can see the post is sharply divided. One lot says to have any horse destroyed under any circumstances anywhere is an act of gross cruelty.The other half says any animal without a use MUST be destroyed and at Potters because anything else is far too bunny huggery and totally wrong.No grey areas here is there?
		
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Not quite. I think the 'other half' is saying that any form of humane destruction is better than long term neglect,prolonged suffering at the hands of those who love their 'baby' far to much to do the right thing by it, or selling a horse not fit (mentally or phyically) to an unsuspecting purchaser.


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## Amymay (10 November 2010)

The other half says any animal without a use MUST be destroyed
		
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Clearly that is not what is being said at all.

I suggest you read the thread again.


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## Maesfen (10 November 2010)

zebedee said:



			Not quite. I think the 'other half' is saying that any form of humane destruction is better than long term neglect,prolonged suffering at the hands of those who love their 'baby' far to much to do the right thing by it, or selling a horse not fit (mentally or phyically) to an unsuspecting purchaser.
		
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Z, you've hit the nail on the head with the right hammer.  It's called facing up to facts and being realistic about the quality of life that horse would have if not put down.


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## Pipkin (10 November 2010)

amymay said:



			So an answer please - what is your proposal??????

How do we manage the waste???
		
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We save them all...make them look pretty and fluffy bunny like, dress them in pink, and keep them for ever and ever and ever....AMEN


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## lochpearl (10 November 2010)

missyme10 said:



			So basically I think anyone who uses potters and turners on a regular basis is no horse lover, but someone who sees horses as commercial commodity, ie most £ dead or alive!
Nothing necessarily wrong with this, but frequently these people will also claim to love horses, I'm sorry but the two dont go hand in hand 

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Sorry But I disagree with this point, what about the kind people that have seen the scraps at the sale move from sale to sale and be treated terribly,  they then buy them up and give them quality of life for a few weeks and then take them to Turners/Potters? This is not for financial gain, many of the ponies are damaged, bad conformation etc, so would not ever become riding ponies and would constantly be shoved from pillar to post or worse - sent to France, Italy etc. The monetary fact in this would only be to then help the next lot of ponies/horses.

I will totally go against the grain here, I am a vegetarian, I do not like the thought of eating any animal, whether it be a pig, horse, cow, dog or chicken. I do not force my beliefs down anyone's throat as this is not my right. All of my friends, family and husband eat meat as does my dog. I have no problem with this, but I ensure any we buy is free range.

This thread has brought up some valuable information and I am sorry to say that no, I have no idea who my local knackerman is or where the closest slaughterhouse is. I know people in my local hunt, should I need it but again this is something that I have never chosen to do.

One horse I had pts went by injection and it was not administered correctly, it was a horrific death and I still have nightmares, he was my soulmate and I had to leave when he was on the ground. The second, I used a proper equine clinic, I actually took him there myself, he knew nothing of the deed and was pts by injection, it was so quick and peaceful and he still had a mouthful of food - he knew nothing and was not stressed at all. The horses at the vet in the stables and in the field next door didn't even look up.

I am fluffy as I have their ashes at home, until I am ready to say goodbye. I also do not have the stomach to have them shot, be it Potters or the Hunt. If I was able to do that I would consider the Hunt or a Slaughterhouse to do the deed as they are doing this job day in, day out and I know it would be the quickest form of despatch. Best for the horse but not the owner.

NP has had a grilling on this post for being helpful and honest, NP is far from a horse hater, she is a wonderful horsewoman and I would ask for her advice before many other people I know. The 3 ponies posted about above are a drop in the ocean, NP has given so many like them a brilliant chance and quality of life. She is also very picky on who she allows to home them, she does this for the love of them!


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## SusannaF (10 November 2010)

This thread kind of makes me want to see the NP vs Fugly Horse of the Day (anti-slaughter) celebrity deathmatch


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## scatty_mare (10 November 2010)

Unnecessary


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## Amymay (10 November 2010)

SusannaF said:



			This thread kind of makes me want to see the NP vs Fugly Horse of the Day (anti-slaughter) celebrity deathmatch 

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What on earth is that supposed to mean??


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## gracey (10 November 2010)

SusannaF said:



			This thread kind of makes me want to see the NP vs Fugly Horse of the Day (anti-slaughter) celebrity deathmatch 

Click to expand...


I don't think fugly is against slaughter, she is against stupid people who dump there horses broken and crippled in sales rings and them having to endure a horrific journey ... i don't think you could call her 'fluffy' ..she has a soft spot for oldies that their owners have abandoned instead of doing the right thing..


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## MerrySherryRider (10 November 2010)

vixann said:



			This wont be a popular post and I don't want peoples opinions please if you are going to say the usual rubbish
Does anyone know how much ponies are bringing at the moment?
7yo 14hh stocky native type?
Thanks
		
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vixann said:



			ok thanks - any ideas on how to get contact details? google just brought up some strange things!!
		
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The information you wanted is quite easy to find on google, along with the telephone number and a map.
The point of this post is ?? Did you want a pat on the back ?


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## Amymay (10 November 2010)

gracey said:



			I don't think fugly is against slaughter, she is against stupid people who dump there horses broken and crippled in sales rings and them having to endure a horrific journey ... i don't think you could call her 'fluffy' ..she has a soft spot for oldies that their owners have abandoned instead of doing the right thing..
		
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She is not anti slaughter at all - and in fact is very vociforous against those 'do gooders' who managed to have all the slaughter houses in the US shut down.

She is an animal lover with experience and common sense.

*SusannaF* - go on her site and watch the videos of the horses going to Mexico for slaugher.  Horrific, horrific, horrific, horrific.


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## SusannaF (10 November 2010)

gracey said:



			I don't think fugly is against slaughter, she is against stupid people who dump there horses broken and crippled in sales rings and them having to endure a horrific journey ... i don't think you could call her 'fluffy' ..she has a soft spot for oldies that their owners have abandoned instead of doing the right thing..
		
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 She is indeed anti-slaughter. Pro-euthanasia, anti-slaughter.

http://fuglyblog.com/?p=644


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## MosMum (10 November 2010)

Hmmm I disagree that I'm a bunny hugger (although they are cute, they taste good, too) because I haven't planned how to have my 2 yr old gelding destroyed.

I have a vet, he's up to date on injections, fed, groomed etc and I imagine if he gets seriously injured or sick I will ring the vet. I haven't made extensive plans on the method of destroying him.

Oh, and his halter/lead/feed bucket/haynet all match. I know he doesn't care, I just think it looks nice. Unfortunately they didn't sell rugs in the same color. This is telling of my OCD traits, not my humanising my horse. 

(And yes he IS my 'baby', with an autistic husband, son and daughter, he's the only cuddly creature in my life!!!!)

I'd still eat horse meat if it was put in front of me.


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## SusannaF (10 November 2010)

amymay said:



			What on earth is that supposed to mean??
		
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Nothing nasty, I promise. NP is doing a lot of what Fugly preaches (more than Fugly does) but is also pro-slaughter. Fugly is anti-slaughter, pro-euthanasia. It would be an interesting debate.


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## vixann (10 November 2010)

horserider said:



			The information you wanted is quite easy to find on google, along with the telephone number and a map.
The point of this post is ?? Did you want a pat on the back ?
		
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the point was to get details about something i had no experience of

the point of your post is? do you want one?


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## SusannaF (10 November 2010)

amymay said:



			She is not anti slaughter at all - and in fact is very vociforous against those 'do gooders' who managed to have all the slaughter houses in the US shut down.

She is an animal lover with experience and common sense.

*SusannaF* - go on her site and watch the videos of the horses going to Mexico for slaugher.  Horrific, horrific, horrific, horrific.
		
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I know the Mexico slaughter is horrific. I mentioned earlier on this giant thread that it's a lot easier to regulate an abbatoir in the UK than in Mexico. I've actually done a lot of reading on the subject and know that the big Belgian firm that has those abbatoirs in Mexico and Canada has a terrible record.

But Fugly is anti-slaughter  as you can see from the link I added earlier. She doesn't see new abbatoirs in the US as a solution. She wants all unwanted horses either rescued or euthanised, and an end to irresponsible breeding.


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## nativetyponies (10 November 2010)

gracey said:



			I don't think fugly is against slaughter, she is against stupid people who dump there horses broken and crippled in sales rings and them having to endure a horrific journey ... i don't think you could call her 'fluffy' ..she has a soft spot for oldies that their owners have abandoned instead of doing the right thing..
		
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FUGLY is just that...brilliant and poignant articles

i would love to meet "fugly" TBH..I'm sure we'd have alot in common


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## SusannaF (10 November 2010)

To clarify, as my earlier comments are way back in the thread, I'm not anti-slaughter. I have been studying the history of horse meat and horse welfare campaigns on and off for a while though, and there's been a palpable shift. 
Ada Cole used money donated for horse welfare to build a humane abbatoir so that fewer horses would have to travel and suffer in poorly regulated continental slaughter house. Imagine if the ILPH did the same now &#8211; that's the organisation she founded? Their donations would plummet.
People don't want to deal with the nitty gritty. They also want to see horses as more special than other livestock.
I love horses, but I'm also far from being a vegan, so I think I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't support horse slaughter. 

If Fugly changed her mind and said she thought new abbatoirs should be opened up in the USA, she would be pilloried. Pro-slaughter people would be ripped to shreds in the comments of her blog if she left them open.


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## Enfys (10 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			FUGLY is just that...brilliant and poignant articles

i would love to meet "fugly" TBH..I'm sure we'd have alot in common
		
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Just what I was thinking


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## HappyHorses:) (10 November 2010)

missyme10 said:



			I have found this to be a most informative thread, I always knew of the existance of potters and turners but that was about it, I had no idea where they were or how horses were slaughtered.

In theory I see no difference in a horse, cow, sheep or pig being slaughtered, they are all animals at the end of the day.

But there is one significant difference, to most horses are much loved pets, and not a commercial commodity, hence they are viewed differently to cattle for example.
With cattle, they were bred and raised with the intention of slaughter always, so the emotional attachment isn't there.

I think this is where difference of opinion often lies with some, those who love their horses as just pets probably wouldn't use an abbatoir, but those who are maybe involved commercially with horses, or have the view that horses are working animals would, or just those that think well death is death no matter what.

I find some opinions on both sides rather insulting, ie. those that think slaughter in this way is wrong must be a fluffy bunny and those that have no issue with it have no interest in the horse, and are bad people etc.
Lack of understanding on both sides I think.

One other point I would like to make is those that favour abbatoirs are of course going to have no issues with the method of handling of killing, but that doens't mean others should and will find it acceptable.

I have no issue with anyone who has their horse pts regardless of method if the horse is dangerous, or if a horse can no longer be afforded and no alternative home can be found, or even if injured and no longer workable and the person wishes to have a working horse, but I do feel some come across as having so little regard for a horses life, thats its no big deal to kill a horse. 
These animals serve humans in whatever capacity we choose and in some cases do so with little complaint for years, and I do honesty feel that some dump them at abbatoirs like I dump my mouldy loaf in the kitchen bin, this is the only part that really gets me, some so clearly have no regard for life ie. no money in that one, slaughter house.

So basically I think anyone who uses potters and turners on a regular basis is no horse lover, but someone who sees horses as commercial commodity, ie most £ dead or alive!
Nothing necessarily wrong with this, but frequently these people will also claim to love horses, I'm sorry but the two dont go hand in hand 

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^^ Very well put ^^ 
I do think that when posting on such a sensitive subject, some members could have used a little more tact.


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## nativetyponies (10 November 2010)

Potters is fully supported/approved by the WHW..(ILPH)


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## Tinseltoes (10 November 2010)

amymay said:



			She is not anti slaughter at all - and in fact is very vociforous against those 'do gooders' who managed to have all the slaughter houses in the US shut down.

She is an animal lover with experience and common sense.

*SusannaF* - go on her site and watch the videos of the horses going to Mexico for slaugher.  Horrific, horrific, horrific, horrific.
		
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I saw part of the video and turned it off,TOO UPSETTING.
When its time for my two to go,they will be injected by the vet,then cremated.


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## SusannaF (10 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			Potters is fully supported/approved by the WHW..(ILPH)
		
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Good! But they didn't build it and run it, which is my point    If they ran a fundraising drive to build an abbatoir, they would be attacked by many of their supporters.


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## Amymay (10 November 2010)

People don't want to deal with the nitty gritty. They also want to see horses as more special than other livestock.
I love horses, but I'm also far from being a vegan, so I think I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't support horse slaughter.
		
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I really, really agree with you Susanna.  Really well put.


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## Maesfen (10 November 2010)

Humane slaughter seem to be emotive words to a lot of you but it's no different from euthanize except that euthanize sounds prettier to some.  End product is death of the horse whichever way you look at it.


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## Amymay (10 November 2010)

sharon1959 said:



			I saw part of the video and turned it off,TOO UPSETTING.
When its time for my two to go,they will be injected by the vet,then cremated.
		
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But I hope you are not basing that decision on what you saw on the Mexico videos - because clearly UK and Mexico are worlds apart in their processes.


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## MerrySherryRider (10 November 2010)

vixann said:



			the point was to get details about something i had no experience of

the point of your post is? do you want one?
		
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Just bemused as to why you posted the thread when the information you want is available with one click on google. Appears to suggest some other motivation.
 I just love it when posters start a thread stating that anyone who doesn't endorse your opinion should keep quiet. Bit like those ' Jumping my 2 year old over an XC course today..'


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## nativetyponies (10 November 2010)

SusannaF said:



			Good! But they didn't build it and run it, which is my point    If they ran a fundraising drive to build an abbatoir, they would be attacked by many of their supporters.
		
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True...sadly, for the 1000's of unwanted ponies in this country.

i'd build/run one...i wonder if i could get a new business grant from the Govnt?


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## SusannaF (10 November 2010)

Maesfen said:



			Humane slaughter seem to be emotive words to a lot of you but it's no different from euthanize except that euthanize sounds prettier to some.  End product is death of the horse whichever way you look at it.
		
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I think it's peoples' disgust at the thought of horses being eaten that's the issue at hand  that's why they're anti-slaughter. The idea that a horse could be farmed to be eaten. And the taboos over eating horse meat are long and weird and complicated...


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## Tinseltoes (10 November 2010)

amymay said:



			But I hope you are not basing that decision on what you saw on the Mexico videos - because clearly UK and Mexico are worlds apart in their processes.
		
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No I just dont agree with slaughter houses for horses.,then humans eating it,NO WAY.
Thats me tho. 
I think injection is the best way for them. I dont like the bullet either.


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## SusannaF (10 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			True...sadly, for the 1000's of unwanted ponies in this country.

i'd build/run one...i wonder if i could get a new business grant from the Govnt?
		
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Just remember not to put "NP's Pony Pies" on the door


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## Amymay (10 November 2010)

sharon1959 said:



			No I just dont agree with slaughter houses for horses.,then humans eating it,NO WAY.
Thats me tho. 
I think injection is the best way for them. I dont like the bullet either.
		
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What is your proposal then for dealing with large numbers of animals needing to be destroyed at one time then - if not via a professional slaughter house?

You can't reallasitcally mean that everything should be destroyed with a needle???


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## nativetyponies (10 November 2010)

SusannaF said:



			Just remember not to put "NP's Pony Pies" on the door 

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oh ok, maybe that is pushing the boundries, eh? 

seriously though, EVERY slaughter animal shouldn't, IMO be more than 50 miles from an Abattoir..that would be in an ideal world...

sadly, consecutive govnt's have closed down far too many outlets and allowed larger buildings farther apart..not good for animal welfare at all.


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## nativetyponies (10 November 2010)

amymay said:



			You can't reallasitcally mean that everything should be destroyed with a needle???
		
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That just wouldn't be practical with feral/semi-feral animals..


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## joeanne (10 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			And the WORST place logistically to have a horse shot is in the stable..

i've known a few that were PTS by injection by the Vet because its what the owner wanted..who are invariably never there!..and it couldn't be picked up by the knackerman til the next day..cue said knackerman having to snap the rigourmorticed joints to get the damn thing out!!!
very dignified for the horse, eh?

and as usual, said owner is nowhere to be seen..because they are "upset" that their ikkle baby has died!!


ETS..sorry cross posted
		
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Absolutely agree. A stable is NOT the place for a horse/pony to be despatched.
I have always arranged the knackerman to come at the same time as the vet (although unless a vets needs to come and sedate, I only use the knackerman and he takes the carcass there and then).
Sharon can I ask....why you see a horse as different to say a cow/sheep when it comes to meat?
I would rather eat a horse that had a decent quality of life, than see the same horse stand in a field and die a slow death from neglect.
In the U.K we dont eat horsemeat as a rule, but in other countries where horsemeat is a part of the diet, they do breed them in much the same way we do cows/sheep and pigs. They are not handled as such, as they are seen as livestock....not pets.


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## vixann (10 November 2010)

horserider said:



			Just bemused as to why you posted the thread when the information you want is available with one click on google. Appears to suggest some other motivation.
 I just love it when posters start a thread stating that anyone who doesn't endorse your opinion should keep quiet. Bit like those ' Jumping my 2 year old over an XC course today..'

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I think someone has already stated that the number for Potters in unavailable on google? how many ppk have said 'put turner or potters in google - whats your problem?'

err well problem 1 I didnt know what they were called and thought i would use a public forum - yes it is public which is what ppl keep telling me - so i cant use it to find out info because........?

I didnt state anyone who doesn't endorse your opinion should keep quiet - I said no opinions plz - didnt say only opinions that are the same as mine? I didnt even tell u my opinion or y i was doing it - I asked for some bloody details - ill ring 118 next time


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## SusannaF (10 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			oh ok, maybe that is pushing the boundries, eh? 

seriously though, EVERY slaughter animal shouldn't, IMO be more than 50 miles from an Abattoir..that would be in an ideal world...

sadly, consecutive govnt's have closed down far too many outlets and allowed larger buildings farther apart..not good for animal welfare at all.
		
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I think the same thing's happened in the US, but with even greater distances. Seem to remember a guy in Michael Pollan's Omnivore's Dilemmna who'd built a great, small slaughter house but wasn't allowed to operate the thing because of government restrictions. Meanwhile, I've also read about horrific safety records for piss-poorly paid immigrant workers at the giant, factory-style slaughter houses in America.


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## spaniel (10 November 2010)

I think it would be very interesting to have some feedback from SP on this thread.


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## eahotson (10 November 2010)

amymay said:



			Clearly that is not what is being said at all.

I suggest you read the thread again.
		
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Well I haven't read ALL of it.However I did read the sneery post about You think having your horse put down in the field, sun shinning etc.Reality different exetera which to me meant that EVEN that is wrong.There is a great deal of dogmatism on both sides of the fence.


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## eahotson (10 November 2010)

HappyHorses:) said:



			^^ Very well put ^^ 
I do think that when posting on such a sensitive subject, some members could have used a little more tact.
		
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That is a brilliant post.


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## thatsmygirl (10 November 2010)

When I had my horse put down it was by injection in the stable with the trailer ready to tow her out and away. I stayed holding her and it was so peacefull and that's the way I will always do it. But I left before they winched her out the stable. None off the other 11 horses in the yard cared at all.
Potters are there for a reason, they do a job that needs doing.  and if I had a dangerous horse who owed me nothing than that is where I would send him but not my babies.
At our local sales yeserday it was a sorry state with little being sold and bids not even making £50. Some off the weanings looked so poor, sad and terified, none sold. Surely they would be better pts the poor buggers. The breeding off these animals is dam right stupid and that's what needs stopping but for those already here, pts. 
I wonder how many people here who are against the use off slaughter houses actually breed some off these little mites? To travel round the sales week after week terified? That's cruel not Potters. 
NP good idea, we could do with more places like Potters.


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## cronkmooar (10 November 2010)

I had been hoping that this thread would just go away so I didn't get involved but as its still here I just can help myself!

Personally I think some of the comments both on here are inflamatory (deliberate or not I don't know) but they do go against the grain with me - especially when it is being claimed that the thread was started for information purposes only.

Examples are:

"How much are ponies bringing at the moment - 7yr old 14hh stocky native"

This might not technically ask how much per KG but its hardly just asking for the telephone number.

"Yes I will kill the pony" also "And I'm Glad it isn't going to Heaven" and the now infamous "pony pies " comment.

I do not live in the UK and just out of curiosity I put in google "potters abattoir Tauntor - I found the telephone number immediately so the argument that this inforamtion is not available is complete bull!

Whilst I think there has been rudeness from both sides of the argument I  think it unkind to berate people for being more sensitive to some situations than yourself.

Do I know where my nearest abattoir is (does not take horses) - yes
Would I take my horse there if the services was available - no
Would I have my horse shot - no
Have I stayed with every horse I have owned whilst PTS - yes

This is how I choose to do things - my choice - nobody elses business.

For those who have experienced terrible deaths by using the injection I am truely sorry that you have experienced this - but I suggest this was the skill of the person administering this rather than the process itself.  My vet whom I have had for almost 20 years no longer offers a choice of method - which he did 18 yrs ago when he did my first horse.  I presume (and I could be wrong) that this is because he has total confidence in the method.

As I said I have made my choices and a such I do respect the right of everyone else to make theirs - without interferance of others.  So whilst I disagree with the OP on her choice, it is exactly that, her choice, nobody elses. Her choice is not cruel, illegal or otherwise so I cannot see any reason for attacking this choice.

However, OP, if you truely just wanted a telephone number and were not looking to cause upset you could have got the telephone number either from google or by your opening post being "does anyone have the telephone number for potters"  You must surely have been aware that some forum users would find your initial and subsequent posts upsetting or unneccessary.

Finally, I have read the entire thread as it has developed and it has been informative, especially the personal experiences of those that have visited the place in question.  I am pleased to know that horses that are despatched at an abattoir are treated humanely and quickly.

Have I changed my mind about using such a place - no


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## nativetyponies (10 November 2010)

I just find it really sad that I've been called cruel and that i'm not a horse lover.

I really can't see the connection.

To put a horse out of it's misery/pain/suffering is surely what horse lovers do?


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## Fairynuff (10 November 2010)

cronkmooar said:



			I had been hoping that this thread would just go away so I didn't get involved but as its still here I just can help myself!

Personally I think some of the comments both on here are inflamatory (deliberate or not I don't know) but they do go against the grain with me - especially when it is being claimed that the thread was started for information purposes only.

Examples are:

"How much are ponies bringing at the moment - 7yr old 14hh stocky native"

This might not technically ask how much per KG but its hardly just asking for the telephone number.

"Yes I will kill the pony" also "And I'm Glad it isn't going to Heaven" and the now infamous "pony pies " comment.

I do not live in the UK and just out of curiosity I put in google "potters abattoir Tauntor - I found the telephone number immediately so the argument that this inforamtion is not available is complete bull!

Whilst I think there has been rudeness from both sides of the argument I  think it unkind to berate people for being more sensitive to some situations than yourself.

Do I know where my nearest abattoir is (does not take horses) - yes
Would I take my horse there if the services was available - no
Would I have my horse shot - no
Have I stayed with every horse I have owned whilst PTS - yes

This is how I choose to do things - my choice - nobody elses business.

For those who have experienced terrible deaths by using the injection I am truely sorry that you have experienced this - but I suggest this was the skill of the person administering this rather than the process itself.  My vet whom I have had for almost 20 years no longer offers a choice of method - which he did 18 yrs ago when he did my first horse.  I presume (and I could be wrong) that this is because he has total confidence in the method.

As I said I have made my choices and a such I do respect the right of everyone else to make theirs - without interferance of others.  So whilst I disagree with the OP on her choice, it is exactly that, her choice, nobody elses. Her choice is not cruel, illegal or otherwise so I cannot see any reason for attacking this choice.

However, OP, if you truely just wanted a telephone number and were not looking to cause upset you could have got the telephone number either from google or by your opening post being "does anyone have the telephone number for potters"  You must surely have been aware that some forum users would find your initial and subsequent posts upsetting or unneccessary.

Finally, I have read the entire thread as it has developed and it has been informative, especially the personal experiences of those that have visited the place in question.  I am pleased to know that horses that are despatched at an abattoir are treated humanely and quickly.

Have I changed my mind about using such a place - no
		
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such an intelligent and honest reply! It was a pleasure to read it, thankyou.


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## lochpearl (10 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			I just find it really sad that I've been called cruel and that i'm not a horse lover.

I really can't see the connection.

To put a horse out of it's misery/pain/suffering is surely what horse lovers do?


Click to expand...

Yes that is what we SHOULD do but not what people want to do!!

And the people that matter KNOW you are not cruel and that you do love horses.


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## eahotson (10 November 2010)

I have a friend who runs a small breeding stud.She does use Potters occasionally, these animals are not pets and I for one have no issue with that.She has no issue with the fact that my horse is a pet and I may want to do things differently.She looks after her animals well.I am sure she would have plenty to say if I wanted to send my horse to the sales, old and lame as 'he might get a new home there!'.
I would suport the ILPH if it wanted to try and get more slaughter houses opened to reduce the travelling and expense and also applaud the fact that there will be business and money generated when, as a country, we need it.
I also think this post was meant to be inflammatory and has succeeded.


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## vixann (10 November 2010)

cronkmooar said:



			I had been hoping that this thread would just go away so I didn't get involved but as its still here I just can help myself!

Personally I think some of the comments both on here are inflamatory (deliberate or not I don't know) but they do go against the grain with me - especially when it is being claimed that the thread was started for information purposes only.

Examples are:

"How much are ponies bringing at the moment - 7yr old 14hh stocky native"

This might not technically ask how much per KG but its hardly just asking for the telephone number.

"Yes I will kill the pony" also "And I'm Glad it isn't going to Heaven" and the now infamous "pony pies " comment.

I do not live in the UK and just out of curiosity I put in google "potters abattoir Tauntor - I found the telephone number immediately so the argument that this inforamtion is not available is complete bull!

Whilst I think there has been rudeness from both sides of the argument I  think it unkind to berate people for being more sensitive to some situations than yourself.

Do I know where my nearest abattoir is (does not take horses) - yes
Would I take my horse there if the services was available - no
Would I have my horse shot - no
Have I stayed with every horse I have owned whilst PTS - yes

This is how I choose to do things - my choice - nobody elses business.

For those who have experienced terrible deaths by using the injection I am truely sorry that you have experienced this - but I suggest this was the skill of the person administering this rather than the process itself.  My vet whom I have had for almost 20 years no longer offers a choice of method - which he did 18 yrs ago when he did my first horse.  I presume (and I could be wrong) that this is because he has total confidence in the method.

As I said I have made my choices and a such I do respect the right of everyone else to make theirs - without interferance of others.  So whilst I disagree with the OP on her choice, it is exactly that, her choice, nobody elses. Her choice is not cruel, illegal or otherwise so I cannot see any reason for attacking this choice.

However, OP, if you truely just wanted a telephone number and were not looking to cause upset you could have got the telephone number either from google or by your opening post being "does anyone have the telephone number for potters"  You must surely have been aware that some forum users would find your initial and subsequent posts upsetting or unneccessary.

Finally, I have read the entire thread as it has developed and it has been informative, especially the personal experiences of those that have visited the place in question.  I am pleased to know that horses that are despatched at an abattoir are treated humanely and quickly.

Have I changed my mind about using such a place - no
		
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already stated i did not know the name of the place???


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## eahotson (10 November 2010)

Fairynuff said:



			such an intelligent and honest reply! It was a pleasure to read it, thankyou.
		
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Yes another excellent post.


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## thatsmygirl (10 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			I just find it really sad that I've been called cruel and that i'm not a horse lover.

I really can't see the connection.

To put a horse out of it's misery/pain/suffering is surely what horse lovers do?


Click to expand...

This is the thing ain't it, people can't accept death. Iv seen old horses in pain go on and on, for what??????? Their bloody owners not for the sake off the horse. And honestly what I saw yeserday at the sales was horrid. I would rather off seen those poor ponies go to Potters than carry on the way they are. 
So I'm a horse hater as well.


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## brigantia (10 November 2010)

cronkmooar said:



			I had been hoping that this thread would just go away so I didn't get involved but as its still here I just can help myself!

Personally I think some of the comments both on here are inflamatory (deliberate or not I don't know) but they do go against the grain with me - especially when it is being claimed that the thread was started for information purposes only.

Examples are:

"How much are ponies bringing at the moment - 7yr old 14hh stocky native"

This might not technically ask how much per KG but its hardly just asking for the telephone number.

"Yes I will kill the pony" also "And I'm Glad it isn't going to Heaven" and the now infamous "pony pies " comment.

I do not live in the UK and just out of curiosity I put in google "potters abattoir Tauntor - I found the telephone number immediately so the argument that this inforamtion is not available is complete bull!

Whilst I think there has been rudeness from both sides of the argument I  think it unkind to berate people for being more sensitive to some situations than yourself.

Do I know where my nearest abattoir is (does not take horses) - yes
Would I take my horse there if the services was available - no
Would I have my horse shot - no
Have I stayed with every horse I have owned whilst PTS - yes

This is how I choose to do things - my choice - nobody elses business.

For those who have experienced terrible deaths by using the injection I am truely sorry that you have experienced this - but I suggest this was the skill of the person administering this rather than the process itself.  My vet whom I have had for almost 20 years no longer offers a choice of method - which he did 18 yrs ago when he did my first horse.  I presume (and I could be wrong) that this is because he has total confidence in the method.

As I said I have made my choices and a such I do respect the right of everyone else to make theirs - without interferance of others.  So whilst I disagree with the OP on her choice, it is exactly that, her choice, nobody elses. Her choice is not cruel, illegal or otherwise so I cannot see any reason for attacking this choice.

However, OP, if you truely just wanted a telephone number and were not looking to cause upset you could have got the telephone number either from google or by your opening post being "does anyone have the telephone number for potters"  You must surely have been aware that some forum users would find your initial and subsequent posts upsetting or unneccessary.

Finally, I have read the entire thread as it has developed and it has been informative, especially the personal experiences of those that have visited the place in question.  I am pleased to know that horses that are despatched at an abattoir are treated humanely and quickly.

Have I changed my mind about using such a place - no
		
Click to expand...

Very well spoken. I think there has been too much snarkiness and bullying coming from both sides of this sensitive issue. Any real discussion has to include multiple points of view. 

Asking for information is fine. Posting in a public forum and stating that you don't want to hear people's opinions on such an emotional subject is probably naive.  

There is an abbatoir close to one of the bridlepaths where I live. We do a beautiful loop hack that goes past this abbatoir. The horses do get very edgy, reluctant, and tense when they have to go past it. They seem to know very well what it is and what happens there. The first time I rode past, *I* didn't even know what that building was, so my horse wasn't reacting to my human squeamishness. Even if humans can't smell blood, it doesn't mean that horses can't smell it or sense what goes on there. 

Everyone must make the best ethical decision for their horse. I hope the OP's horse meets a humane and dignified end.


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## Maesfen (10 November 2010)

SusannaF said:



			Meanwhile, I've also read about horrific safety records for piss-poorly paid immigrant workers at the giant, factory-style slaughter houses in America.
		
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Slightly, but only just off topic.  Did anyone watch the Countryfile programme when Adam was in the US looking at farming practises.  Not good watching at all and I think he came out with a pretty poor impression of Americans and how they want things done in such huge numbers; all of the animals were just numbers and the slot when they were calving onto sand was disgusting.  Made me very glad I live where I live and our farmers are so much more compassionate with the animals that give them their livelihood, the same as many horse owners too.  We are lucky we have Potters and Turners whether you like the idea or not.  

Spare a thought too for the Chinese meals many of you enjoy, where do they some from, how is that reared and killed?


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## lochpearl (10 November 2010)

brigantia said:



			Very well spoken. I think there has been too much snarkiness and bullying coming from both sides of this sensitive issue. Any real discussion has to include multiple points of view. 

Asking for information is fine. Posting in a public forum and stating that you don't want to hear people's opinions on such an emotional subject is probably naive.  

There is an abbatoir close to one of the bridlepaths where I live. We do a beautiful loop hack that goes past this abbatoir. The horses do get very edgy, reluctant, and tense when they have to go past it. They seem to know very well what it is and what happens there. The first time I rode past, *I* didn't even know what that building was, so my horse wasn't reacting to my human squeamishness. Even if humans can't smell blood, it doesn't mean that horses can't smell it or sense what goes on there. 

Everyone must make the best ethical decision for their horse. I hope the OP's horse meets a humane and dignified end.
		
Click to expand...

So you have just said that it was YOU that made the horse edgy, reluctant and tense, not the fact that the horse knew what was going on in there and could smell the blood.


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## nativetyponies (10 November 2010)

Maesfen said:



			Slightly, but only just off topic.  Did anyone watch the Countryfile programme when Adam was in the US looking at farming practises.  Not good watching at all and I think he came out with a pretty poor impression of Americans and how they want things done in such huge numbers; all of the animals were just numbers and the slot when they were calving onto sand was disgusting.  Made me very glad I live where I live and our farmers are so much more compassionate with the animals that give them their livelihood, the same as many horse owners too.  We are lucky we have Potters and Turners whether you like the idea or not.  

Spare a thought too for the Chinese meals many of you enjoy, where do they some from, how is that reared and killed?
		
Click to expand...

well said.


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## Zebedee (10 November 2010)

QR.
I think more notice needs to be taken of an earlier post which stated

"Injection is kinder for the owners,a bullet is kinder for the horse".

A view backed by vets, I might add.


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## Amymay (10 November 2010)

zebedee said:



			QR.
I think more notice needs to be taken of an earlier post which stated

"Injection is kinder for the owners,a bullet is kinder for the horse".

A view backed by vets, I might add.
		
Click to expand...

Yes it was an important point.


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## SusannaF (10 November 2010)

Maesfen said:



			Slightly, but only just off topic.  Did anyone watch the Countryfile programme when Adam was in the US looking at farming practises.  Not good watching at all and I think he came out with a pretty poor impression of Americans and how they want things done in such huge numbers; all of the animals were just numbers and the slot when they were calving onto sand was disgusting.  Made me very glad I live where I live and our farmers are so much more compassionate with the animals that give them their livelihood, the same as many horse owners too.  We are lucky we have Potters and Turners whether you like the idea or not.
		
Click to expand...

Can highly recommend Michael Pollan's _Omnivore's Dilemma_. It's a long nonfiction book divided into three parts, each of which centres on a meal. The first meal is fastfood, and Pollan then goes back to research and describe the conditions of production for each ingredient. The second meal is organic and small-scale production, and the third is hunted/foraged. More about it here.

I read about the slaughter houses in Eric Schlosser's _Fast Food Nation_, which is also excellent  horror stories of feedlots and monocultures. Put me off Macdonalds....

I think small-scale and local is the way to go.


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## spaniel (10 November 2010)

I accept the risk that some may find this too clinical and possibly graphic......can I ask why the bullet is considered better for the horse.  By this I mean in what ways do the physical actions of each method affect the animal involved.

I appreciate that this might turn into pure biology for some and that they may be uncomfortable with it but I am interested,  wish to expand my knowledge and not afraid to ask!

So,  if someone can talk us/me through the actual process of death by each means Im sure some may find it helpful/useful or interesting.


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## thatsmygirl (10 November 2010)

zebedee said:



			QR.
I think more notice needs to be taken of an earlier post which stated

"Injection is kinder for the owners,a bullet is kinder for the horse".

A view backed by vets, I might add.
		
Click to expand...

My vet won't use the bullet he injects. Which I was happy with and it was very quick and she just lied down and went to sleep. She was sadated first.


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## Lady La La (10 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			I just find it really sad that I've been called cruel and that i'm not a horse lover.

I really can't see the connection.

To put a horse out of it's misery/pain/suffering is surely what horse lovers do?


Click to expand...

I think that the vast majority of the people on this forum have more common sense and compassion than to think this of you.

This thread has been incredibly informative and I for one have the utmost respect for you, it sounds as though you have done some wonderful things for many horses over the years.

Anyone who says that they have read both sides to this argument and *cannot* see the up side to abbatoirs and similar, IMO needs a serious wake up call...


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## cronkmooar (10 November 2010)

vixann said:



			already stated i did not know the name of the place???
		
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OK whilst I still have my polite hat on!

Firstly I find that hard to belive.  As stated I don't live in the UK and I know what Potters is and exactly where it is.  I am also aware that there are only two such establishments in the UK  

Secondly you were given both names on the second or third post and the telephone number shortly afterward so you could have left things at that.

The point of my post is that there are better ways of asking for information and in life in general it is polite to consider other people.

A suggestion for your opening post would be: can anyone provide details of an abattoir that processes horses?  

Can you not see that your comments can be upsetting to others?  or do you just really not care?


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## Amymay (10 November 2010)

Can you not see that your comments can be upsetting to others?
		
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But surely only to the uninformed - or those not part of the real world.......


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## Allover (10 November 2010)

lochpearl said:



			So you have just said that it was YOU that made the horse edgy, reluctant and tense, not the fact that the horse knew what was going on in there and could smell the blood.
		
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Read the post again!


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## lochpearl (10 November 2010)

Allover said:



			Read the post again!
		
Click to expand...

Oh did thank you 

'The first time I rode past, *I* didn't even know what that building was, so my horse wasn't reacting to my human squeamishness'

explain????


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## SusannaF (10 November 2010)

How upsetting is "upsetting"? Brief distaste? Devastation? The real issue is that a horse (which only one person on this thread has actually encountered) with problems is dealt with humanely and responsibly. That horse won't be reading this thread and getting upset. For everyone else, it's easy to just pass over the topic.


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## vixann (10 November 2010)

cronkmooar said:



			OK whilst I still have my polite hat on!

Firstly I find that hard to belive.  As stated I don't live in the UK and I know what Potters is and exactly where it is.  I am also aware that there are only two such establishments in the UK  

Secondly you were given both names on the second or third post and the telephone number shortly afterward so you could have left things at that.

The point of my post is that there are better ways of asking for information and in life in general it is polite to consider other people.

A suggestion for your opening post would be: can anyone provide details of an abattoir that processes horses?  

Can you not see that your comments can be upsetting to others?  or do you just really not care?
		
Click to expand...

Well good for you if you know the names etc - Do you just think I am lying when i say I didnt???

yes i could have left it at that - so could everyone else - i wasnt the one who dragged this out - maybe you should read again???

sorry i didnt take the time to come up with an alternative title 

better ways? what are forums for? yes it might be upsetting - ppl who knew they would be upset had the option of not reading it??


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## nativetyponies (10 November 2010)

And WHY should it be a Taboo subject just because of a few "delicate souls"?

The numbers who have replied saying it's informative far outway the "lala, i'm not listening" types...which, in my book, can only benefit horse welfare as a whole.


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## Zebedee (10 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			I just find it really sad that I've been called cruel and that i'm not a horse lover.

I really can't see the connection.

To put a horse out of it's misery/pain/suffering is surely what horse lovers do?


Click to expand...

Illegitimi non carborundum, NP.

There are those on here who simply do not reside on the same level of practicality & reality that some of the rest of us do.
All we can do (out of kindness) is hope for their sakes that their pretty shiny bubble never bursts on them, because if it does it's going to be one hell of shock to discover that those of us who think along the same lines as you do were right all along.


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## MurphysMinder (10 November 2010)

lochpearl said:



			Sorry But I disagree with this point, what about the kind people that have seen the scraps at the sale move from sale to sale and be treated terribly,  they then buy them up and give them quality of life for a few weeks and then take them to Turners/Potters? This is not for financial gain, many of the ponies are damaged, bad conformation etc, so would not ever become riding ponies and would constantly be shoved from pillar to post or worse - sent to France, Italy etc. The monetary fact in this would only be to then help the next lot of ponies/horses.

I will totally go against the grain here, I am a vegetarian, I do not like the thought of eating any animal, whether it be a pig, horse, cow, dog or chicken. I do not force my beliefs down anyone's throat as this is not my right. All of my friends, family and husband eat meat as does my dog. I have no problem with this, but I ensure any we buy is free range.

This thread has brought up some valuable information and I am sorry to say that no, I have no idea who my local knackerman is or where the closest slaughterhouse is. I know people in my local hunt, should I need it but again this is something that I have never chosen to do.

One horse I had pts went by injection and it was not administered correctly, it was a horrific death and I still have nightmares, he was my soulmate and I had to leave when he was on the ground. The second, I used a proper equine clinic, I actually took him there myself, he knew nothing of the deed and was pts by injection, it was so quick and peaceful and he still had a mouthful of food - he knew nothing and was not stressed at all. The horses at the vet in the stables and in the field next door didn't even look up.

I am fluffy as I have their ashes at home, until I am ready to say goodbye. I also do not have the stomach to have them shot, be it Potters or the Hunt. If I was able to do that I would consider the Hunt or a Slaughterhouse to do the deed as they are doing this job day in, day out and I know it would be the quickest form of despatch. Best for the horse but not the owner.

NP has had a grilling on this post for being helpful and honest, NP is far from a horse hater, she is a wonderful horsewoman and I would ask for her advice before many other people I know. The 3 ponies posted about above are a drop in the ocean, NP has given so many like them a brilliant chance and quality of life. She is also very picky on who she allows to home them, she does this for the love of them!
		
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I agree with so much of this post (about from the fact I love my meat).  I am afraid I did not stay with my old pony when she was shot, but someone I trusted was with her and she is buried at home.  She was pts at 34 when her arthritis was beginning to become a problem, I could have kept her for longer but that would have been for me not for her.  Previously to that another old pony went to the hunt, he was shot at home by the kennelman as he was in bad way after colicking overnight when no one was there.  I don't think any of ours will go to Turners, even though they are local, but I know plenty of people who have taken horses there, and all say the horses show no fear or stress.  I have however been to Beeston and have seen the fear shown by some of the old and unsound horses sent there by owners who "love" them too much to send them to Turners.
I expect I could be considered slightly fluffy, but I hope I am also realistic and as has been said before I suspect most horses would prefer a trip to Potters or Turners than being passed on from home to home.


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## Zebedee (10 November 2010)

thatsmygirl said:



			My vet won't use the bullet he injects. Which I was happy with and it was very quick and she just lied down and went to sleep. She was sadated first.
		
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More profit in the injection 

So long as you were happy with the service thats fine. 

I've had experience of both methods with my own horses over the years. I personally wouldn't have another one injected unless it was already under sedation.


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## cronkmooar (10 November 2010)

amymay said:



			But surely only to the uninformed - or those not part of the real world.......
		
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I am both informed and part of the real world but I don't see the need to cause upset deliberately or if it can be avoided.  Thats not being a fluffy bunny as some forum members like to call it - that is manners.

I have no problem with the OP choice but I do think that a bit of thought could be put into the wording of some posts - and not just those of the OP I might add!

Everyone has the right to deceide how to despatch their horse, however there is a certain amount of lighting the touch paper and standing back and watching what happens with this thread.

Again, just out of interest I put in google UK Horse Abattoirs - and guess what, had the names of both within seconds, provided no less by an article in H&H.

This information is easily obtainable without the need for a 50 page bun fight!


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## MosMum (10 November 2010)

To be fair... vixann asked the question and didn't post again, even in reply to some pretty harsh posts directed at her, for quite a while. So she DID leave it alone after getting the information she requested.

I'm sorry but I had no idea what Potters was, though I'm American. I do think its a bit niave to assume that others have access to the same knowledge, experience and information as you have. Especially not knowing anything about the OP as a person. 

I don't think the topic is inappropriate to a horse forum, and personally didn't find anything OP said offensive, though I can read frustration in some later posts, I can't say I blame her considering some of the very personal attacks made. 

On parent forums, people talk about child abuse.

On the ASD forum, they talk about not being able to cope and medicating/giving up their children.

On dog forums they talk about some pretty graphic things, too. The subject matter can't become taboo, lest we all become more and more removed from the realities of horse ownership and pass that on to our children.


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## bonny (10 November 2010)

I don't think it comes down to an argument of injection vs shooting but what matters is the experience of whoever is doing it.  If you choose your vet then ask how many horses he has pts and then consider that for a knacker man it's his job, day in day out and think which one is skilled at what they do. 
The only horse that I've seen shot by a vet suffered immensely and I would rather wait for a knacker man than call out a vet if faced with a similar emergency.
On the other hand I've seen and held alot of horses for knackermen and all of them had a quick and hopefully painless death.
People need to be realistic, it's part of owning horses that they go first......


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## CorvusCorax (10 November 2010)

PS you can change your settings to posts-per-page, this is only page 12 for me.


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## ThoroughbredStar (10 November 2010)

One issue that certainly does need addressing in this country regarding animal welfare are the vet fees/charges!!!!! Vets totally exploit the British "animal lover" nation and I believe this is responsible for a lot of animal welfare issues. People simply cant afford charges, it ridiculous! If vet treatment was not as expensive as it is I am certain welfare cases in britain would drop dramatically. My mother had her Boxer in hospital for two days, was x-rayed, had tumour removed from spleen, drips etc etc. This was in spain, cost her a total of 300euros!!!!! What would that cost here? Speaks for its self. 

A vet recently told us that he encourages his co vets to charge as mcuh as poss on clients. This is appalling.....animal welfare not being considered here at all, animals being put through un-necessary and stressful treatment, not good. 

I certainly agree with pts which considers the best for the animals welfare.


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## vixann (10 November 2010)

cronkmooar said:



			I am both informed and part of the real world but I don't see the need to cause upset deliberately or if it can be avoided.  Thats not being a fluffy bunny as some forum members like to call it - that is manners.

I have no problem with the OP choice but I do think that a bit of thought could be put into the wording of some posts - and not just those of the OP I might add!

Everyone has the right to deceide how to despatch their horse, however there is a certain amount of lighting the touch paper and standing back and watching what happens with this thread.

Again, just out of interest I put in google UK Horse Abattoirs - and guess what, had the names of both within seconds, provided no less by an article in H&H.

This information is easily obtainable without the need for a 50 page bun fight!
		
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calm your pants everyone - i didnt find on google so i asked on here - sorry for been so thick that i couldnt find it.


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## Over2You (10 November 2010)

amymay said:



			Ah Polly, like so many you absolutely miss the point, and totally misunderstand the person.

Those who have very strong opinions on abbatoir have formed them through ignorance - not through experience.
		
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I haven't misunderstood the OP. She wants to slaughter a horse because he _could_ turnout to be vicious mindless killer. 

I don't happen to agree with abattoirs and don't eat meat. My doctor tells me I'm healthier than meat eaters as I don't have animal fat clogging up my arteries. The last IQ test I did scored 120. That makes me stupid, does it?


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## joeanne (10 November 2010)

spaniel said:



			I accept the risk that some may find this too clinical and possibly graphic......can I ask why the bullet is considered better for the horse.  By this I mean in what ways do the physical actions of each method affect the animal involved.
		
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I dont think its the physical aspect that makes it better. For many horses the vet is someone to be wary around. 
Having never met the knackerman before, and not knowing what the gun is for, the horse is dead before the noise of the shot ends.
I had my oap mini shot earlier this year. Total phobic where needles are concerned, so shooting was the only kind option for him.


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## Pipkin (10 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			I haven't misunderstood the OP. She wants to slaughter a horse because he _could_ turnout to be vicious mindless killer. 

I don't happen to agree with abattoirs and don't eat meat. My doctor tells me I'm healthier than meat eaters as I don't have animal fat clogging up my arteries. The last IQ test I did scored 120. That makes me stupid, does it?
		
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Who put another ten pence in you??? please ask them to stop


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## vixann (10 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			I haven't misunderstood the OP. She wants to slaughter a horse because he _could_ turnout to be vicious mindless killer. 

I don't happen to agree with abattoirs and don't eat meat. My doctor tells me I'm healthier than meat eaters as I don't have animal fat clogging up my arteries. The last IQ test I did scored 120. That makes me stupid, does it?
		
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could????????????????????????????


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## Zebedee (10 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			I haven't misunderstood the OP. She wants to slaughter a horse because he _could_ turnout to be vicious mindless killer. 

I don't happen to agree with abattoirs and don't eat meat. My doctor tells me I'm healthier than meat eaters as I don't have animal fat clogging up my arteries. The last IQ test I did scored 120. That makes me stupid, does it?
		
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My IQ rating (last time I did one) was 153. 

That means I'm cleverer than you, so therefore I'm right & you're wrong


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## Amymay (10 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			I haven't misunderstood the OP. She wants to slaughter a horse because he _could_ turnout to be vicious mindless killer. 

I don't happen to agree with abattoirs and don't eat meat. My doctor tells me I'm healthier than meat eaters as I don't have animal fat clogging up my arteries. The last IQ test I did scored 120. That makes me stupid, does it?
		
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No, the OP stated the horse was dangerous (but who are we to argue, as stated before - it really is none of our business).

Being a non meat eater is your choice, I wouldn't judge you on that.  And as for your intelligence score - clearly you are not stupid, just decidely average.

Now - hopefully you'll see the question I asked several pages back and give me your thoughts.


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## PapaFrita (10 November 2010)

zebedee said:



			My IQ rating (last time I did one) was 153. 

That means I'm cleverer than you, so therefore I'm right & you're wrong 

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You're cleverer than me as well, but I'm cleverer than t'other HHOer and clever enough to know you're right


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## pixi (10 November 2010)

bonny said:



			I don't think it comes down to an argument of injection vs shooting but what matters is the experience of whoever is doing it.  If you choose your vet then ask how many horses he has pts and then consider that for a knacker man it's his job, day in day out and think which one is skilled at what they do. 
The only horse that I've seen shot by a vet suffered immensely and I would rather wait for a knacker man than call out a vet if faced with a similar emergency.
On the other hand I've seen and held alot of horses for knackermen and all of them had a quick and hopefully painless death.
People need to be realistic, it's part of owning horses that they go first......
		
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personally i like mide injected n crem after,but i do prsonally know 2 registerd knacker men if your midlands based theres bob walker 07702117742 he shots for 120 quick n efficient job over in seconds ,he will  return ashes at a cost ,if your shropshire based andy hodson07776154384 will collect n return ashes if you want .both do the job there n then quick efficient experienced  at there  jobs,both also collect after a vet has pts n can return ashes


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## Zebedee (10 November 2010)

bonny said:



			I don't think it comes down to an argument of injection vs shooting but what matters is the experience of whoever is doing it.  If you choose your vet then ask how many horses he has pts and then consider that for a knacker man it's his job, day in day out and think which one is skilled at what they do. 
The only horse that I've seen shot by a vet suffered immensely and I would rather wait for a knacker man than call out a vet if faced with a similar emergency.
On the other hand I've seen and held alot of horses for knackermen and all of them had a quick and hopefully painless death.
People need to be realistic, it's part of owning horses that they go first......
		
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Quoted because it's worthy of repeating, & is also very very true.


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## Fairynuff (10 November 2010)

zebedee said:



			Quoted because it was worth repeating.



You forgot the bit about having to break its legs if rigour mortis has set in to get it out of the door.........
		
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It is a bugger if they 'go' while still in their box...but.....!
Ive had a few who, for various reasons, have done just that. The answer to the dilema is-as soon as they have 'gone', tie their legs together at fetlock level. All four together, tightley. They wont feel it. When its time to remove them, they can be easily manouvered out of the door-all you have to do is hoick them up onto their back or at an angle where the feet pass through the door. Its not a very nice subject but it is one that has to be confronted. The hardest part is taking their shoes off! This is required by the  rendering plants as the shoes bugger up their machinary. I pay an insurance of 60 euro (yearly) to the local rendering plant which allows me to 'render' any fallen stock 'free' against 120 euro per head if Im not 'insured'. I take my 60 euro to them personally!


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## Zebedee (10 November 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			You're cleverer than me as well, but I'm cleverer than t'other HHOer and clever enough to know you're right 

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I was annoyed with my final result, as another 2 points & I'd have been in the genius plus bracket instead of just genius


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## PapaFrita (10 November 2010)

zebedee said:



			I was annoyed with my final result, as another 2 points & I'd have been in the genius plus bracket instead of just genius 

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Oh well, for my money you're definitely genius plus


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## Amymay (10 November 2010)

zebedee said:



			I was annoyed with my final result, as another 2 points & I'd have been in the genius plus bracket instead of just genius 

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Girls, please - my last testing only gave me a score of 129 - which I too was very disappointed with.

You make me feel very inferior..........


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## Zebedee (10 November 2010)

PapaFrita said:



			Oh well, for my money you're definitely genius plus 

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I far rather be able to paint than add up stuff quickly though 

People who can do things like painting are better than clever. They're gifted........


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## Tormenta (10 November 2010)

What is the best way with a needle phobic, headshy horse (who is wary of strangers/men)? Genuine question because I have one and he has always been that way over the years, the minute a vet or farrier turns up he is off to the back of his box. Don't get me wrong, if I am there usually with some persuasion and moving about he will eventually stand for the Farrier but his annual vacs are a dance about moment, he doesn't like strangers going to touch his face, ears, neck etc.  It has often run through my head that unless we are extremely lucky and he dies naturally then I just know it will be difficult for him, not a nice thought for a horse we adore.


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## Zebedee (10 November 2010)

Damn. I've just realised all the stuff saying how brilliant I am is on page 25 of god knows how many pages the eventual total will be. 
Hardly anyone will see them


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## Zebedee (10 November 2010)

Tormenta said:



			What is the best way with a needle phobic, headshy horse (who is wary of strangers/men)? Genuine question because I have one and he has always been that way over the years, the minute a vet or farrier turns up he is off to the back of his box. Don't get me wrong, if I am there usually with some persuasion and moving about he will eventually stand for the Farrier but his annual vacs are a dance about moment, he doesn't like strangers going to touch his face, ears, neck etc.  It has often run through my head that unless we are extremely lucky and he dies naturally then I just know it will be difficult for him, not a nice thought for a horse we adore.
		
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There was a post a while ago entitled 'How to shoot a headshy horse' .
Went on for almost as long as this one has. Still didn't make the H & H top five topics though!

Here it is http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=229518&highlight=shoot+headshy+horse


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## Sadiemay (10 November 2010)

From my side this whole topic has been very thought provoking to me and as much as I try to ignore this thread and sit on my hands to refrain from posting I keep reading it as I have never really given much thought to having my own horse shot as a method of PTS. As I would never ever want this for her and therefore she will be PTS by injection at home with me at her side unless of course there is god forbid an emergency that dictates otherwise.  Its all about personal choice and we maybe need to remember that peeps.  However I do think that a bit of sensitivity from BOTH sides of the fence wouldnt have gone amiss in some of the responses to this thread.  

In my humble opinion there is no real difference between having a horse shot by a knackerman, the hunt OR at an abattoir.  The method used is exactly the same! So the horse has travel to an abattoir and possibly to the hunt but that is no different to transporting a horse for any other reason, of which no one would bat an eye lid.  I think because there is financial gain to be made from your horses death by taking it to an abattoir that causes it to be viewed so negatively and can be viewed as cold hearted and callous, but is it.really? and also the general feeling that horses and abattoirs are very rarely heard in the same sentence here in the UK.  

I have seen the video footage from the UK abattoir (cant remember if its Turners or Potters)  showing the little grey pony shot and I have to say its done professionally and cleanly and is instant, no one who has seen the footage can surely deny that? 

My choice of injection for my old girl when the time comes is based on the fact I have had the misfortune to witness a horse being shot when I was a teenager and the first bullet did not kill the horse so he had to be shot again.  I will never ever forget the sounds that horse made as he was initially shot, for me that made my mind up that I would never allow for my mare to be PTS via bullet.  Its horrible to see/hear and is brutal, yes it may be instant BUT its still a brutal method of dispatch.  

As for injection being kinder to the owners I tend to disagree on the whole but maybe not so much in previous years, however I know that these days a lot of vets use a modern drug to euthanise that is very very quick acting and doesnt require vials and vials of the stuff to be pumped into the horse.  My last two veterinary practices would not use the gun as a method of putting to sleep only injecting as does the new state of the art/modern equine veterinary practice I have now just joined. As a lot of horses are sedated prior to being shot, they are so out of it that inserting a catheter is quite stress free really.

Of course my view for my mares ending is based on the sheer love and bond I have with her, I have been lucky enough to share my life with her for nearly twenty years, she is my best friend and I owe her so much, she owes me NOTHING not a bean! and for that fact alone when its her time to pass on, I will make sure its as comfortable, familiar and stress free as possible.  Will I find it hard to be there, hell yes! I have no doubt it will be the hardest thing I will ever have to face but I will make myself be there for her final moments and she will know right up to the last second how much she was loved and she will feel my familiar presence to end very end, make no mistake it will be my worst nightmare come true but its the very least I can do and it is the final act of love I can show her.  

I am also aware that once she is gone and only her body remain its not really her anymore, it's her spirit, character and personality that makes her who she is.  So I do understand those that dont chose to bury or cremate their horses once passed but rather dispose to the hunt or dare I say it for meat. 

That said my horse will be cremated individually and ashes returned to me but I am fortunate enough to be in a position to the able to afford this but at nearly 800GBP its not always an option for everyone, I do understand that. 

So anyway without going on and on  I think that it may suit some people situations and circumstances to take their horse to an abattoir and thats their choice but dont confuse it will being fundamentally any different to taking your horse to the vet or hunt to be PTS via a bullet.  

I think you either need to oppose the gun method of PTS a horse full stop or not, not base your judgment on the location of where it happens or what happens to the body afterwards 

**Dons flame retardant suit**

Sadiemay


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## Tankey (10 November 2010)

horserider said:



			I just love it when posters start a thread stating that anyone who doesn't endorse your opinion should keep quiet.
		
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But she didnt give her opinion....she asked a question....everyone else gave their opinions


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## Amymay (10 November 2010)

*Sadiemay *, really great, eloquent post.

Thank you.


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## Lady La La (10 November 2010)

Sadiemay said:



			I think you either need to oppose the gun method of PTS a horse full stop or not, not base your judgment on the location of where it happens or what happens to the body afterwards
		
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I think this is a good point & well made...


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## Zebedee (10 November 2010)

^^^^^


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## bonny (10 November 2010)

Lady La La said:



			I think this is a good point & well made...
		
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Why would anyone oppose the shooting of horses ? It's what happens in the majority of cases by people who know what they are doing ....it's quick, final and as painless as it can be when done properly.  I'm guessing that the slaughter men working at Turners and Potters are the most skilfull of all and ironically that must make a slaughter house the best place for a horse to end up.


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## PapaFrita (10 November 2010)

zebedee said:



			Damn. I've just realised all the stuff saying how brilliant I am is on page 25 of god knows how many pages the eventual total will be. 
Hardly anyone will see them  

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It's on page 50 of mine!! Don't worry though; all the people that matter know you're a genius and also very nice 
I'm gutted that in just a couple of days this thread is nearly as long as my entirely friendly, non-antagonistic "Roll up, Roll up..." thread.... *sigh*


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## Tormenta (10 November 2010)

zebedee said:



			There was a post a while ago entitled 'How to shoot a headshy horse' .
Went on for almost as long as this one has. Still didn't make the H & H top five topics though!

Here it is http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=229518&highlight=shoot+headshy+horse

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Thank you! Off to have a read.


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## Lady La La (10 November 2010)

bonny said:



			Why would anyone oppose the shooting of horses ? It's what happens in the majority of cases by people who know what they are doing ....it's quick, final and as painless as it can be when done properly.  I'm guessing that the slaughter men working at Turners and Potters are the most skilfull of all and ironically that must make a slaughter house the best place for a horse to end up.
		
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Err... I wasn't opposing the gun method? 

The point Sadiemay was making, is that there are people on here getting upset about a horse 'going to slaughter' when in actual fact, the mothod of killing is the same as those who opt to have the bullet for their horses at home or the hunt...whatever happens to the animal once it's dead is neither here nor there, as long as the death is as quick and painless as possible?

I was agreeing with her well written statement


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## Sadiemay (10 November 2010)

bonny said:



			I'm guessing that the slaughter men working at Turners and Potters are the most skilfull of all and ironically that must make a slaughter house the best place for a horse to end up.
		
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After some thought I find myself agreeing with you as much as it suprises me.  I have heard one too many stories of vets dithering or being openly nervous of PTS a horse using the gun, who wants someone like that to do the job.

My good friend even had one vet turn round at the very last minute and say he couldnt do it! and he would have to inject instead  This was not because her horse was gun shy or proving difficult (he was already sedated) just because he couldnt face shooting the horse point blank in the head I supoose , thank god he was honest and didnt just shoot anyway and hope for the best.

Although PTS by gun is not the method I personally would ever choose given a choice, I can only agree that a professional slaughterman is surely the most skilled to admister this method of PTS.

Sadiemay


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## brigantia (10 November 2010)

lochpearl said:



			So you have just said that it was YOU that made the horse edgy, reluctant and tense, not the fact that the horse knew what was going on in there and could smell the blood.
		
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No. That's not what I wrote. The first time we rode by, my horse reacted to the place and I didn't understand why because I didn't know it was an abattoir. When someone explained to me what this mysterious building was, the horse's reaction made more sense. Whenever we go hacking past this places, the horses seem on edge, regardless of their rider's view on the slaughter issue, lol. 

This is just a small place in the country, not a huge one. I don't think they process horses. But the horses react when they go past it.


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## Over2You (10 November 2010)

amymay said:



*Over2You - and Tic Tac, as you are both so vocal in your objections*

Can you tell me what your solution would be then for the thousands of horses and ponies who go through the market ring every year - who are destined for meat?

Who would you have take responsibility for them? - because clearly their owners or breeders want them sold.

We have a crisis in this country (as do Ireland) with the amount of unwanted stock.  In Ireland in particular the picture is pretty grim - with proposals having been made by the government to incentivise owners financially to have their horses put down - rather than abandon them and allow them to starve (because they can no longer afford them).

Welsh hill ponies aren't worth anything more than meat money at the moment - again no one is buying.  So what is their future??

I'm genuinly worried that so many people have little in the way of knowledge or experience of what actually goes on on the wider world.

So an answer please - what is your proposal??????

How do we manage the waste???
		
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Which of these is the most peaceful and dignified? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqyF4E019uI where the horse goes down gently and quietly. Or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eamy6PDeZdw where there is lots of thrashing about and blood. The former is how Guy is going (yes, I HAVE planned), the latter - NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS!!!

As for those of you saying there is a major crisis in America since horse slaughter was banned there. It was stopped for good reason. The method they were using was deemed inhumane for horses. Countless vets testified in favour of it being banned. Not to mention all the cruelty and abuse that went on behind closed doors. As for solutions. Prosecute and/or fine the horse sport industry for over producing. Instead of them making money from killer buyers. It is because there is such an easy way to get rid of surplus stock, that they continue to produce horses in bulk. If there were no quick fix solutions, they might just think twice about their breeding strategies. It is due to human greed, arrogance and ignorance that these crises came about in the first place. As for private owners. This is when the horse owner license comes into play. If you do not possess a knowledge of equine psychology (there are plenty of ways people can educate themselves). And if you cannot afford long term horse ownership, then you should not be allowed to have a horse. Same goes for dogs and other pets.


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## lochpearl (10 November 2010)

Brigantia:

Fair enough, I must have misunderstood. However if it doesn't process horses then perhaps it could be a reaction to the animal that they do slaughter there? Just a thought? One of my previous horses would go absolutely mad on a hack, it was almost like he could see things I couldn't and in the end I had to get off and lead him home - no chance of getting back on 17.2hh! On speaking to the YO, the field where were had been is normally full of pigs - horse sensed the smell - cue mad petrified horse.

As I said before I am I guess in the 'loving owner bracket' having mine pts at home and cremated, being with them till the end etc etc. However there is a need for these places and I honestly believe that the horses are not scared and do not know what is happening, otherwise why would they be seen eating whilst in the pens.


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## Amymay (10 November 2010)

Over2You - you are clearly referring here:




			And if you cannot afford long term horse ownership, then you should not be allowed to have a horse.
		
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to pet ownership.

So haven't answered my question.  

Do you have a solution - or just an undefendable view point???


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## vixann (10 November 2010)

that is the 1st time i have watched the grey pony video and i am impressed at how quick and efficient it was. O2Y - I hope all goes well when your horse time comes.


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## Seahorse (10 November 2010)

brigantia said:



			No. That's not what I wrote. The first time we rode by, my horse reacted to the place and I didn't understand why because I didn't know it was an abattoir. When someone explained to me what this mysterious building was, the horse's reaction made more sense. Whenever we go hacking past this places, the horses seem on edge, regardless of their rider's view on the slaughter issue, lol. 

This is just a small place in the country, not a huge one. I don't think they process horses. But the horses react when they go past it.
		
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I've had the same thing, only where we hacked past had retired lions and tigers (they had the Esso tiger there and he savaged the keeper!) there were ponies in the fields that were used to feed the animals and they would deplete by 2 a week until they ran out then they would go to the sales and get a few more. He had a slaughter licence and it was legal  
My normally 100% ultra safe horse always used to go a bit funny going past the place and I didn't know why to start with. Pretty understandable that they were scared going past there!! I just hoped they didn't escape one day!


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## mcnaughty (10 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			And the WORST place logistically to have a horse shot is in the stable..

i've known a few that were PTS by injection by the Vet because its what the owner wanted..who are invariably never there!..and it couldn't be picked up by the knackerman til the next day..cue said knackerman having to snap the rigourmorticed joints to get the damn thing out!!!
very dignified for the horse, eh?

and as usual, said owner is nowhere to be seen..because they are "upset" that their ikkle baby has died!!


ETS..sorry cross posted
		
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Um, not sure why this post has decended into this.  Not sure if it is in attempt to shock but probably it is.  Yes, rigamortice is a fact of life - all living creatures get it when they die - humans who are left curled up in their death beds have to be straighted out by breaking bones - oh dear shock horror.

Sorry, but any vet who puts a horse down in it's stable without just cause is seriously very stupid.  Sometimes though, I would imagine that the poor animal cannot even get up to be taken outside so yes I would expect some are PTS in their stables.

Death is a fact of life - huh, no pun intended.  Do we have to try to shock to get the upper hand?


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## mcnaughty (10 November 2010)

MosMum said:



			Hmmm I disagree that I'm a bunny hugger (although they are cute, they taste good, too) because I haven't planned how to have my 2 yr old gelding destroyed.

I have a vet, he's up to date on injections, fed, groomed etc and I imagine if he gets seriously injured or sick I will ring the vet. I haven't made extensive plans on the method of destroying him.

Oh, and his halter/lead/feed bucket/haynet all match. I know he doesn't care, I just think it looks nice. Unfortunately they didn't sell rugs in the same color. This is telling of my OCD traits, not my humanising my horse. 

(And yes he IS my 'baby', with an autistic husband, son and daughter, he's the only cuddly creature in my life!!!!)

I'd still eat horse meat if it was put in front of me.
		
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Nail hit firmly on head...


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## Amymay (10 November 2010)

Which of these is the most peaceful and dignified? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqyF4E019uI where the horse goes down gently and quietly. Or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eamy6PDeZdw where there is lots of thrashing about and blood. The former is how Guy is going (yes, I HAVE planned), the latter - NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS!!!
		
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Just watched again.

Great endings for both animals.  Thank you for posting them.

The grey pony goes to re-affirm everything that many of us have said about sending an animal to an abattoire.  I didn't see any thrashing about, so not sure if we're watching the same one though??  But clearly there is some muscle spasm.  As can happen with whatever method of destruction is used.

The old grey horse - looked very peaceful, I agree.

Thanks again.


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## Eluana (10 November 2010)

I don't normally post here, but hey ho. 

Thank you to those posters that have posted information about this from personal experience. It was interesting to read, and learn, about what actually happens rather then watch some video online, made to sensationalize it.  

I'm 17, don't currently own a horse, but do hope to in the future, and so if/when the time comes for that horse to be PTS, I will need to make a decision on how. 
From the posts made by those with experience in this, my view has changed from the PTS by injection being the only 'kind' way to end a horses life, to there being more then one option for if any reason, my future horse has to be PTS. 

So really, just thank you to those who have supplied experienced, factual information.


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## jaypeebee (10 November 2010)

mcnaughty said:



			Do we have to try to shock to get the upper hand?
		
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I do not view them as having upper hand.  Some on this thread have been extremely patronising and lacking class in my opinion.  I dont know how many horses Ive had PTS but a lot over a long period of time.  Never have I considered taking them to slaughter.  They are PTS at home with me at the end of the lead.  I am not fluffy bunny but I have great deal of respect for my animals so they are killed in their own surroundings.


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## Zebedee (10 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			As for those of you saying there is a major crisis in America since horse slaughter was banned there. It was stopped for good reason. The method they were using was deemed inhumane for horses. Countless vets testified in favour of it being banned. Not to mention all the cruelty and abuse that went on behind closed doors.
		
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So instead horse in America face long journeys to end their days in the mexican slughter houses wher the conditions are horrific, or are just abandoned & left to die slowly.

Those american campaigners must be almost as clever as you claim to be.......


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## Zebedee (10 November 2010)

mcnaughty said:



			Um, not sure why this post has decended into this.  Not sure if it is in attempt to shock but probably it is.  Yes, rigamortice is a fact of life - all living creatures get it when they die - humans who are left curled up in their death beds have to be straighted out by breaking bones - oh dear shock horror.

Sorry, but any vet who puts a horse down in it's stable without just cause is seriously very stupid.  Sometimes though, I would imagine that the poor animal cannot even get up to be taken outside so yes I would expect some are PTS in their stables.

Death is a fact of life - huh, no pun intended.  Do we have to try to shock to get the upper hand?
		
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Is it not better though for those planning a poetic end (horse in it's own stable slowly collapsing in to a deep bed of straw) to find out now that they may need to revise their plans, rather than having the extra trauma of discovering that the deed will have to be done outside - even if it's raining - at the time?


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## Amymay (10 November 2010)

As for those of you saying there is a major crisis in America since horse slaughter was banned there. It was stopped for good reason. The method they were using was deemed inhumane for horses. Countless vets testified in favour of it being banned. Not to mention all the cruelty and abuse that went on behind closed doors.
		
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What happened to good old fashioned legislation and regulation.  If there was a problem - fix it, don't ban it.

I am truly horrified at what horses now have to go though in the US now.


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## jaypeebee (10 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			As for those of you saying there is a major crisis in America since horse slaughter was banned there. It was stopped for good reason. The method they were using was deemed inhumane for horses. Countless vets testified in favour of it being banned. Not to mention all the cruelty and abuse that went on behind closed doors.
		
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Yes you are right.  Those were reasons for stopping slaughter houses in USA.  In USA slaughter houses were mass slaughtering horses.  Not the same as in UK where each horse is individually shot by handler.  In USA method was automated and plants were not set up for horses.  Horses can not be mass slaughtered mechanically and that was the problem.  In UK methods are different and much the same as your vet or huntsman coming to shoot horse.  Make no mistake though, USA is in crisis with the amount of horses with nowhere to go.  Something has to be done to stop unnecessary travel to unregulated slaughter house out of country but it wont be until cost effective alternatives can be found.


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## mcnaughty (10 November 2010)

vixann said:



			I think someone has already stated that the number for Potters in unavailable on google? how many ppk have said 'put turner or potters in google - whats your problem?'

err well problem 1 I didnt know what they were called and thought i would use a public forum - yes it is public which is what ppl keep telling me - so i cant use it to find out info because........?

I didnt state anyone who doesn't endorse your opinion should keep quiet - I said no opinions plz - didnt say only opinions that are the same as mine? I didnt even tell u my opinion or y i was doing it - I asked for some bloody details - ill ring 118 next time
		
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Fantastic Idea


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## missyme10 (10 November 2010)

natalia said:



			"So basically I think anyone who uses potters and turners on a regular basis is no horse lover, but someone who sees horses as commercial commodity, ie most £ dead or alive!
Nothing necessarily wrong with this, but frequently these people will also claim to love horses, I'm sorry but the two dont go hand in hand "
__________________

I've kept my mouth shut on this one till now! Having sent horses to Potters you can't say I don't love horses! I sent them BECAUSE I love them! If you have anything to do with horses as a business you will know that some of them just are simply unsellable, dangerous or too messed up to be passed on. While I'm not adverse to selling a horse with some sort of use through  a market I wouldn't think of passing anything on with any serious metal or physical issues. Money dosen't grow on trees so if you can get back a couple of hundred pounds for a horse like this and know its future is secure then I don't see the problem as the money will only go towards another horse anyway! And before you shoot me down and say I'm heartless I bet I've given hundreds of needy horses a second chance thats they otherwise wouldn't have had over the years, from markets, private homes, dumped on me horses, foals who have been orphaned at dealers etc. What I haven't done is pass on anything thats not fit for a purpose "oh it's lame/terrified of being ridden/driven.... lets sell as a companion". The bunny huggers on here need to grow up, go back to the Intelligent horsemanship boards and leave us alone to discuss things in a sensible non sentimental manner.
		
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Can you actually read a whole post?
Go back and read what I wrote, because this is not what I meant and I VERY VERY clearly state I have no issue if horse dangerous, unaffordable and no alternative home possible, even if unable to be a working animal and owner wants a working animal.

I am not against potters or turners, I believe they are needed in our society and as long as horses are killed humanely thats fine by me. 
What I have a problem with is those that so easily discard horses after they've served them for years, that pts a horse is no big deal, regardless of method.
Anyone who makes a decision on the welfare and future of a horse based purely on finances I believe cannot claim to be a genuine horse lover.........let me spell that out.
You've several horses, not worth much, homes could be found but u get peanuts, potters give offer you more................which route to you take?
If the homes for peanuts then I do not mean people like you, if you choose potters, I mean exactly people like you. I dont know you, or what your involvement with horses is, so I have no idea where you fit.

My comments were not directed at anyone in particular x


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## Meowy Catkin (10 November 2010)

As for injection being kinder to the owners I tend to disagree on the whole but maybe not so much in previous years, *however I know that these days a lot of vets use a modern drug to euthanise that is very very quick acting and doesnt require vials and vials of the stuff to be pumped into the horse.* My last two veterinary practices would not use the gun as a method of putting to sleep only injecting as does the new state of the art/modern equine veterinary practice I have now just joined. As a lot of horses are sedated prior to being shot, they are so out of it that inserting a catheter is quite stress free really.
		
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Unfortunately, the old horse I was refering to was PTS by lethal injection this summer with the right drugs and by an equine vet. It was all done properly and yet the horse suffered greatly, took ages to die and had to be given more drugs twice. It was awful. Luckily the owner was not there, we did however tell her that he went quickly and quietly as telling the truth would have been a cruel blow to an already distraught lady. 

They are not a member of HHO so shouldn't read this.


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## Sadiemay (10 November 2010)

Its not about opposing a method of PTS, its about what YOU choose for YOUR horse.  Who is anyone to judge what you do, honestly people do what you think is right for you and your horse and dont stress what others think.  

As I have pointed out as has Lady La La, whether you PTS using a gun at home, at the hunt, at the abbatoir, on cloud cuckoo etc.. the process is exactly the same, there is no difference.  

Sometimes looking at a scenario factually and taking the emotions out of it helps to see things more objectively, VERY difficult at times I know! and especially with such an emotive topic 

Yes putting a horse to sleep at home, in its familer surroundings is surely the most "ideal" for the horse but the truth is we dont always live in an ideal world and as far as I can see loading them up into lorry and transporting them to the hunt or abbatoir is no different to transporting them to a show, new home, schooling facility, somewhere to hack etc...once they get there the process of PTS is the same whether is be at home or at an abattoir.  

Once they have passed their body is just an empty shell.  My main concern would be the horses welfare, dignity and treatment whilst it was alive, quite frankly than what happens to it once its dead.  Blimey....I am really suprising myself today with my thinking! 

Sadiemay


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## Zebedee (10 November 2010)

missyme10 said:



			You've several horses, not worth much, homes could be found but u get peanuts, potters give offer you more................which route to you take?
If the homes for peanuts then I do not mean people like you, if you choose potters, I mean exactly people like you. I dont know you, or what your involvement with horses is, so I have no idea where you fit.
		
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Then what do you do if two weeks later you find the unsound horse you sold for peanuts to the nice lady who said she needed it as a companion in a low end market being sold to the meat man?
Selling horse for peanuts is not really an option if you truely care for their ongoing welfare.
I for one feel that anyone who has an elderly or unsound horse that they can no longer provide for should step up to the mark & have it PTS by whatever method, & in whatever location suits them, not shy away from that duty by selling the poor animal on for peanuts.


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## *hic* (10 November 2010)

zebedee said:



			QR.
I think more notice needs to be taken of an earlier post which stated

"Injection is kinder for the owners,a bullet is kinder for the horse".

A view backed by vets, I might add.
		
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zebedee said:



			My IQ rating (last time I did one) was 153. 

That means I'm cleverer than you, so therefore I'm right & you're wrong 

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Ahem *clears throat*

I'm cleverer still - last test I took scored 154 so I think you'll find that my opinion carries most weight.

Mind you I've no idea where the little grey cells have all disappeared to since then.


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## Sadiemay (10 November 2010)

Thanks Faracat for sharing your experience.  I think its always a risk and NO method is 100% garuanteed.  I have often torn myself up wondering if by choosing the injection I would be doing the right thing and up until last Friday I wasnt sure.....but then.....

I had the vet out from the new Equine Practice I have just joined to give my girl a full medical, and take blood for full blood work to do done.  As she is a loony having her teeth checked/rasped and as well as a little needly shy so the vet sedated her as soon as she got there.  

My horse within less than 30 seconds was seriously away with the fairies! I have never seen a sedative work so fast and she had less than half a small syringe. I could have nudged her and she would have gone down fast asleep or so it seemed to me.

I feel alot better knowing that an O.D of this drug (vet confirmed this is what they would use to knock her completely out before giving drug to stop the heart) she had would end her life almost instantly and she would be none the wiser apart from drifting off into sleep.  She has been operated on in the past and had a G.A so I see putting a horse down by injection no different, they are unconcious before the drug is given to stop the heart.  

But yes I do appreciate there is a risk that it can go badly, however its a risk I will take as opposed to choosing the gun. God its so difficult! I really dont want to ever be in this position but as Sadie is now 23 and with me for life its inevitable I guess 

Sadiemay


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## penhwnllys_stardust (10 November 2010)

I have read the whole therad and i have found it very educational... so thank you. it is not a subject people like to talk about but people do need educating about how our horses lives could end. 

also, on youtube all the videos with titles such as 'horror in the slaughterhouse' with pictures of horses so skinny they are barely alive, how do these people think this is because of the slaughterhouse? its clearly because of the people who owned the horse! if they were not in the slaughterhouse where are they going to be? in a field up to their knees in mud knocking on deaths door....


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## ThoroughbredStar (10 November 2010)

zebedee- Then what do you do if two weeks later you find the unsound horse you sold for peanuts to the nice lady who said she needed it as a companion in a low end market being sold to the meat man?


There was an article about this in H&H about people taking so called companions on loan etc and selling them to meat man. Very interesting, yet distressing story. Makes you aware!


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## Happy Horse (10 November 2010)

zebedee said:



			More profit in the injection 

So long as you were happy with the service thats fine. 

I've had experience of both methods with my own horses over the years. I personally wouldn't have another one injected unless it was already under sedation.
		
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Not at all.  Many vets particularly the younger ones will avoid shooting as they do it so rarely.  If I were to have a horse shot I would much prefer a hunstman/knacker to do it.


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## missyme10 (10 November 2010)

zebedee said:



			Then what do you do if two weeks later you find the unsound horse you sold for peanuts to the nice lady who said she needed it as a companion in a low end market being sold to the meat man?
Selling horse for peanuts is not really an option if you truely care for their ongoing welfare.
I for one feel that anyone who has an elderly or unsound horse that they can no longer provide for should step up to the mark & have it PTS by whatever method, & in whatever location suits them, not shy away from that duty by selling the poor animal on for peanuts.
		
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If your logic is correct, then absolutely no one should ever sell a horse because we cannot guarantee its future once we are no longer legal owner.
Lets face it at the moment the horse market is absolutely dire, the fact is ponies are changing hands for a few quid, so I do understand what your saying. But I also know of many ponies that cost "peanuts" that are currently in great homes. These ponies could well be dead now because someone decided to do them a "favour"!
Is it really right to just put them all to sleep just in case they never have a good home?
Why not shoot the whole equine world then?
Because lets face it, circumstances change, I could lose my job tomorrow, so can I 100% gurantee my horses futures? Could you?
I totally agree with you about elderly horses and those not sound, pts is a far better option than passed on, whether it be the hunt, potters or whatever.

I think its the 2 year olds etc. thats never lived I have an issue with, that people are rounding them up and sending them to potters on the grounds they are sparing them an awful future, and they receive money for this. I think such people believe they are saving these horses. Wow, whilst I agree there is a problem with unwanted equines, this "I am unwanted ponies saviour attitude" doesn't quite wash with me. The FACT is they pick them up at sales for 20 quid and under, and get a hell of a lot more money taking them to slaughter - I think the point I am making is there is profit in it, and this now links to my main point earlier, this kind of person to me has no right to claim to be a horse lover.

Before anyone jumps down my neck, if you've read my previous posts, ill, unsound, elderly, unworkeable etc - no problems with potters.

Just a problem with those that round up the sound ones and ship them off for money, and have no regard for their lives, and see the £ only - and all this done in the name of saving them......utter bull *****, people like that should be honest and say yeah, so what I do it to make money.
And there is money in it - Potters wouldn't exist otherwise would it !!! x


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## *hic* (10 November 2010)

Sadiemay said:



			Thanks Faracat for sharing your experience.  I think its always a risk and NO method is 100% garuanteed.  I have often torn myself up wondering if by choosing the injection I would be doing the right thing and up until last Friday I wasnt sure.....but then.....

I had the vet out from the new Equine Practice I have just joined to give my girl a full medical, and take blood for full blood work to do done.  As she is a loony having her teeth checked/rasped and as well as a little needly shy so the vet sedated her as soon as she got there.  

My horse within less than 30 seconds was seriously away with the fairies! I have never seen a sedative work so fast and she had less than half a small syringe. I could have nudged her and she would have gone down fast asleep or so it seemed to me.

I feel alot better knowing that an O.D of this drug (vet confirmed this is what they would use to knock her completely out before giving drug to stop the heart) she had would end her life almost instantly and she would be none the wiser apart from drifting off into sleep.  She has been operated on in the past and had a G.A so I see putting a horse down by injection no different, they are unconcious before the drug is given to stop the heart.  

But yes I do appreciate there is a risk that it can go badly, however its a risk I will take as opposed to choosing the gun. God its so difficult! I really dont want to ever be in this position but as Sadie is now 23 and with me for life its inevitable I guess 

Sadiemay
		
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I really hope for you and for your horse that the end for her comes as you want it to BUT it is as well to be aware of the other options and what they mean to the horse because there are old horses, as with some people, where the blood vessels have collapsed sufficiently that a needle cannot easily be inserted. Those are often the ones people are talking about when they say that an injection has gone wrong. In that situation, if the vet feels they won't get a needle in it may help you to know what else could be done to make her passing as easy as possible, especially if she has a needle phobia.


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## glitterbug (10 November 2010)

This on the whole has been a very informative post but after reading though all 53 pages what strikes me most about the two differing sides is that most people who have no problem with using Potters or turners also say that each to there own about the methods used i.e LI or bullet, hunts or vets whatever suits the individual and circumstances.
the other side seem much more vocal about pushing their points of view home as to why these places are so bad. Is it 'fluffyness' or is it lack of knowledge, I have known several people use Potters and have nothing but praise.
My only personal experience of LI was not pleasant, but would not condemn others for using it.
For some on here a different opinion to theirs is a cardinal sin.
sadly what we would want in an ideal world rarely happens.


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## Happy Horse (10 November 2010)

When I was woking in an equine hospital admitedly nearly 10 years ago, there was one injection of Somulose to euthanase a horse but I have been reading of two separate injections, one to knock the horse out and then a second to stop the heart/breathing etc.  Is this a new thing does anyone know?


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## ThoroughbredStar (10 November 2010)

missyme10 said:



			Before anyone jumps down my neck, if you've read my previous posts, ill, unsound, elderly, unworkeable etc - no problems with potters.

Just a problem with those that round up the sound ones and ship them off for money, and have no regard for their lives, and see the £ only - and all this done in the name of saving them......utter bull *****, people like that should be honest and say yeah, so what I do it to make money.
And there is money in it - Potters wouldn't exist otherwise would it !!! x
		
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Yep, plenty of dealers out there doing that! grrrr


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## jaypeebee (10 November 2010)

missyme10 said:



			Wow, whilst I agree there is a problem with unwanted equines, this "I am unwanted ponies saviour attitude" doesn't quite wash with me. The FACT is they pick them up at sales for 20 quid and under, and get a hell of a lot more money taking them to slaughter - I think the point I am making is there is profit in it, and this now links to my main point earlier, this kind of person to me has no right to claim to be a horse lover.
		
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It does not sit easy with me either.  Bottom of the scrap heap dealers buying up cheap ponies at auctions and selling for a respectable profit to meat man?  It would not be something I would be proud of.  Saviours?  No they are business people but on a very different level from most.


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## lannerch (10 November 2010)

Having finally got to the current last post

Firstly I am stunned that people are complaining about martlin asking price per kg ( and yes I have read it marlin not op ) am I the only one that has worked out how much my horse is worth to the meat man 

Do we have to tip toe around and not post reality as it may upset a fluffy bunny hugger who really from the title of this post should have realised it probably was not suitable for them.

That said I have no intentions of sending him to either potters or turners and it certainly would not be financially vaible to do so and even if it was I would prefer pts at home.

However having read posts of by injection I think I can safely say that for my horses sake I would never take the chance and bullet it would be.
You would just have to wipe me off the floor afterwards however if needs must my horse would come first.

when I was a teenager I rung turners up and told them they were horrible and evil and slammed the phone down now I know a lot better, whoops the ignorance of youth, sorry


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## *hic* (10 November 2010)

What do you suppose would happen to them if they weren't bought for meat?


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## Zebedee (10 November 2010)

Happy Horse said:



			When I was woking in an equine hospital admitedly nearly 10 years ago, there was one injection of Somulose to euthanase a horse but I have been reading of two separate injections, one to knock the horse out and then a second to stop the heart/breathing etc.  Is this a new thing does anyone know?
		
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I had a pony PTS using LI a few years ago. The vet used two injections, as the second one went in his eyes bulged, I felt his pulse start to race (could feel it against my hand which was on the side of his face). The vet then took the rope from me 'just in case he goes up & comes forwards towards you'.
As it happened he didn't, he just dropped.


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## beeswax (10 November 2010)

where i work the vet still uses somulose and i can honestly say i have never seen a bad end yet, these other vets are obviously not injecting enough of the other drugs mentioned for these bad ends to be taking place.  If i use LI when my horse goes, i will make sure i ask the vet before hand that they have the correct quantities to ensure it is quick.  Just to change the subject quickly i sold other horse filly recently young vet came out to do the vetting, after finding nothing wrong could only pick out under elbow what was mud, vet said it was a wart, and by lifting her tail told the potential owner that she would have problems getting in foal if she ever wanted to breed from her.  i told vet where i work and he said she vet must have xray eyes.  Too many young inexperienced ones about imo.


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## glitterbug (10 November 2010)

jaypeebee said:



			It does not sit easy with me either.  Bottom of the scrap heap dealers buying up cheap ponies at auctions and selling for a respectable profit to meat man?  It would not be something I would be proud of.  Saviours?  No they are business people but on a very different level from most.
		
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It doesn't sit easy with me either but then what sits worse is the poor ponies being shoved from pillar ro post neglected badly treated and ending up in unknowledable homes thats even less 'horse lovers'


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## Sadiemay (10 November 2010)

Dear Jemima_too,

Absolutely correct.   I couldnt agree with you more.  When it comes down to it, I will do whatever is best for my girl at that exact time,  her well being and quick end to suffering comes way over and above before my own preferences. I would rather live knowing I let her go quickly than prolonging her suffering just because I didnt want her PTS using the gun even if that was deemed the best way right there, right then.  

I have always tried to do the right thing for her and put her needs as top priority and that wont change in her final moments. It will be all about her and what is best.

So if the injection is deemed not suitable for whatever reason then I will authorise the gun.  The views I have expressed are based on what I hope and pray will turn out to be my ideal scenario and then my choice is the injection.  However I have to realistic that this may not be possible for whatever reason.

Sadiemay


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## cronkmooar (10 November 2010)

Happy Horse said:



			When I was woking in an equine hospital admitedly nearly 10 years ago, there was one injection of Somulose to euthanase a horse but I have been reading of two separate injections, one to knock the horse out and then a second to stop the heart/breathing etc.  Is this a new thing does anyone know?
		
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I have to say that I was also finding this interesting/confusing too.

I had my old mare PTS in April this year due to a broken leg and I specifically asked my vet about the drug being used because a) it was years since I had had one PTS and b) because there was a story going round that he had pts a horse by injection late one night and the next morning it was stood grazing in the field!

The vet confirmed that this was indeed a true story and did quickly explain why this had happened but the names of the drugs etc have not stayed in my mind due to the circumstances as I am sure you will understand.

From what I can remember the drug that had been used to stop the heart had been used after a specific sedative and when the heart stopping drug was first used with this sedative it was not known that in some cases the heart did not fully stop.

He assured me that the drug that was being given to my horse would not allow this to happen (it didn't - rigor did set in - I checked because even after assurance I was still worried about her being buried alive so to speak)

The drug she was given was pink, she had only one injection and was not sedated - she was gone very very quickly and unconcious immediately - I have a feeling it might have been the same drug they give humans for a GA???

Was it Mavis007 that said she was a vet?  If so I would be really interested to know about different drug combinations and why what is used or are there any other vets in the house that might be so kind to answer this?


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## missyme10 (10 November 2010)

jemima_too said:



			What do you suppose would happen to them if they weren't bought for meat?
		
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Not overly sure who you are asking this question to?
So I'll just answer anyway 

I think at present there is such an awful excess of equines in the UK that are unwanted, there is no other realistic alternative, well controlling breeding in the future would be - but lets face it that is never going to happen.

The lucky few get good homes, the next luckiest go to potters, then there are those who suffer fates worse than death, a bullet isn't the worst that can happen to a horse.

Its the bull ***** saviours of these poor poor unwanted horses that have a tidy sum in their pockets that grate me 

Saddly until breeding is controlled and we crawl out of this recession, an awful lot of youngsters or sane and sound horses are gonna suffer the same fate, as a genuine horse lover that just doesn't sit right with me - but there doesn't seem to be an alternative viable solution right now


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## missyme10 (10 November 2010)

glitterbug said:



			It doesn't sit easy with me either but then what sits worse is the poor ponies being shoved from pillar ro post neglected badly treated and ending up in unknowledable homes thats even less 'horse lovers'
		
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The initial point is these people claim to be horse lovers and are "saving them" they are not in my opinion.
They do it to make money, end of


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## *hic* (10 November 2010)

Sadiemay said:



			Dear Jemima_too,

Absolutely correct.   I couldnt agree with you more.  When it comes down to it, I will do whatever is best for my girl at that exact time,  her well being and quick end to suffering comes way over and above before my own preferences. I would rather live knowing I let her go quickly than prolonging her suffering just because I didnt want her PTS using the gun even if that was deemed the best way right there, right then.  

I have always tried to do the right thing for her and put her needs as top priority and that wont change in her final moments. It will be all about her and what is best.

So if the injection is deemed not suitable for whatever reason then I will authorise the gun.  The views I have expressed are based on what I hope and pray will turn out to be my ideal scenario and then my choice is the injection.  However I have to realistic that this may not be possible for whatever reason.

Sadiemay
		
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That's all that any horse would ask of us - that we make the decision they can't and that we make sure that the person who does the deed does the best job possible. As I said, I hope your ideal scenario pans out - but not for many years.

My ideal scenario for one of mine who finds it difficult to get up from lying down is that I will take him to the hunt because he enjoys a trip out, they will turn him out and when he has laid down and had a good roll about he will have a feed bowl brought to him - he loves to eat lying down. When he puts his head in the bowl that will be the end for him. My fingers are crossed that he can go like this - I will be in pieces but I can't think of a better way for him. I think the hunt thought I was nuts but they are happy to do that if I think that's what's good for him.


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## Zebedee (10 November 2010)

missyme10 said:



			The initial point is these people claim to be horse lovers and are "saving them" they are not in my opinion.
They do it to make money, end of 

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Ah. I get it now. For example a user on here brought some very poor looking sucker foals at a market. In spite of her best efforts none of them were ever going to recover from their pooor start in life, so they were taken to Potters, after about three months of the best possible care. 
I expect a few quid did change hands, & I also expect those few quid were reinvested in he welbeing of other horses and ponies so I can't see a problem

At the end of the day the outcome is the same. Horses/ponies with no chance of a decent future are dispatched quickly & humanely.


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## Tankey (10 November 2010)

I find the use of language very interesting in this thread.
If you have your horse shot at home then it is being PTS or euthanised, whereas if you have your horse shot at Potters or Turners, it is being slaughtered.
Whether your horse is shot, injected, slaughtered, put to sleep, goes to sleep (as someone said ), then end result is the same and the horse is dead..end of.


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## nativetyponies (10 November 2010)

mcnaughty said:



			Um, not sure why this post has decended into this.  Not sure if it is in attempt to shock but probably it is.  Yes, rigamortice is a fact of life - all living creatures get it when they die - humans who are left curled up in their death beds have to be straighted out by breaking bones - oh dear shock horror.

Sorry, but any vet who puts a horse down in it's stable without just cause is seriously very stupid.  Sometimes though, I would imagine that the poor animal cannot even get up to be taken outside so yes I would expect some are PTS in their stables.

Death is a fact of life - huh, no pun intended.  Do we have to try to shock to get the upper hand?
		
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and what a surprise i'm yet again quoted when others have said the same...i did apologise for cross posting..so just get off my back, eh?


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## nativetyponies (10 November 2010)

i wont mention my IQ on here, but it's a darn sight higher than some of the cabbages that have posted on this thread


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## DragonSlayer (10 November 2010)

Bloody hell!

Took me forever!

My opinion is as follows -

It is the right of any owner to dispose of their animal as they see fit.

HOWEVER....

I believe the OP should have asked for the contact details and LEFT IT THERE. I do not believe it was wise to ask meat prices as I think it was the catalyst that started WW3 here. The fact that she is considering it however, does not fill me with dread, she is being extremely sensible in the choice. 

If someone buys a horse, then they MUST look at the eventual end of said horse. Both my two veterans were PTS at home with injections, although I could not afford to have them cremated and returned, I was ensuring that the meat would NOT enter the food chain. My choice. Both ends were peaceful, and dignified, the vets themselves conducted the whole affair from beginning to end with extreme professionalism. I thought about the bills later.

It is not my choice to send my horses to become food. But if it is someone elses, then THAT is perfectly acceptable. I am not going to sit and bray you out for making that choice.

My sons pony had to be PTS at the vet, by injection, because his surgery was not successful, if I could, I would have planned it at home.

I think that horse owners who say 'I can't afford to have it PTS because...' really need to take stock of their financial obligation to their animals. And yes, I knew of a couple of people personally who have said this.

To have a horse destroyed because it is dangerous, is a VERY sensible thing to do. If your dog bit a neighbour, chances are, it would be PTS....why is a horse any different?

To those people who seem to revel in accusing anyone who accepts the use of a slaughterhouse as evil spawns of Satan, you really need to wake up and smell the coffee. This is REAL LIFE. Scary, isn't it?

The End.


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## missyme10 (10 November 2010)

zebedee said:



			Ah. I get it now. For example a user on here brought some very poor looking sucker foals at a market. In spite of her best efforts none of them were ever going to recover from their pooor start in life, so they were taken to Potters, after about three months of the best possible care. 
I expect a few quid did change hands, & I also expect those few quid were reinvested in he welbeing of other horses and ponies so I can't see a problem

At the end of the day the outcome is the same. Horses/ponies with no chance of a decent future are dispatched quickly & humanely.
		
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Glad you get me now 
The situation you describe is not the kind of person I am talking about, if someone has tried there best and for whatever reason its not worked out and had to send them to Potters, then thats probably the best place for them. Sad but the reality of life.
and yes if that money is then reinvested in the well being of other horses - this is hardly someone I have an issue with


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## teddyt (10 November 2010)

vixann said:



			I would rather get 100 than nothing - I have put a lot of time and effort into this pony and he hasnt given me a good life.
		
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Owning a horse shouldnt be selfishly conditional. You may have put alot of time and effort into the pony but it doesnt mean that it was the_right_ time and effort for that particular pony. If he didnt understand you or for some reason couldnt communicate his difficulties to you so you could help him then its not his fault. PTS by all means (im not against that if pony is dangerous) but wanting a few quid as some kind of compensation is ridiculous and selfish.


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## SirenaXVI (10 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			Which of these is the most peaceful and dignified? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqyF4E019uI where the horse goes down gently and quietly. Or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eamy6PDeZdw where there is lots of thrashing about and blood. The former is how Guy is going (yes, I HAVE planned), the latter - NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS!!!

As for those of you saying there is a major crisis in America since horse slaughter was banned there. It was stopped for good reason. The method they were using was deemed inhumane for horses. Countless vets testified in favour of it being banned. Not to mention all the cruelty and abuse that went on behind closed doors. As for solutions. Prosecute and/or fine the horse sport industry for over producing. Instead of them making money from killer buyers. It is because there is such an easy way to get rid of surplus stock, that they continue to produce horses in bulk. If there were no quick fix solutions, they might just think twice about their breeding strategies. It is due to human greed, arrogance and ignorance that these crises came about in the first place. As for private owners. This is when the horse owner license comes into play. If you do not possess a knowledge of equine psychology (there are plenty of ways people can educate themselves). And if you cannot afford long term horse ownership, then you should not be allowed to have a horse. Same goes for dogs and other pets.
		
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You really are very uninformed re american slaughter.  Have you *seen* the video of the Mexican slaughter house?  If you think that the little grey pony had an undignified end, you should see the totally brutal end of the american horses who end up there, this after travelling hundreds of miles in double decker horse transporters, ALL because America has banned the slaughter of horses.  It makes me sick to the stomach that the people who engineered the ban are actually proud of it, THEY have caused untold suffering to thousands of horses, some are just left to starve, some have been beaten to death and the remainder packed off to Canada if they are lucky, Mexico if not.

I agree that there are many people who own horses who perhaps should not, but I would also include those that keep old horses alive when they are clearly suffering, they do this for themselves, not for the good of the horse.  Having a horse PTS by injection is much easier for the owner to deal with than a bullet, which is easier for the horse.

So, you want to prosecute the racing industry for over producing?  I also dislike the wastage in this industry but never in a million years will they be penalised, there is just far too much money involved.  Racing, like it or not is a numbers game, hence the over production, it will always be this way. Assuming this overproduction was stopped, it does not solve the immediate problem - now what is your solution if the slaughter houses were closed?  

Similarly, what about the surplus of foals coming off the mountain or the forest?  I completely agree that there are far too many and the responsible breeders are cutting back on breeding.  This, however, STILL leaves an immediate problem, what do you suggest we do with them?  Could you give a couple of dozen a home?  No I thought not.

Incidentally the much castigated NP has done her bit for these little scraps - have you?


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## Ted's mum (10 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			i wont mention my IQ on here, but it's a darn sight higher than some of the cabbages that have posted on this thread 

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LOL!!!


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## SirenaXVI (10 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			i wont mention my IQ on here, but it's a darn sight higher than some of the cabbages that have posted on this thread 

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I would tend to agree NP


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## Tormenta (10 November 2010)

SirenaXVI said:



			You really are very uninformed re american slaughter.  Have you *seen* the video of the Mexican slaughter house?  If you think that the little grey pony had an undignified end, you should see the totally brutal end of the american horses who end up there, this after travelling hundreds of miles in double decker horse transporters, ALL because America has banned the slaughter of horses.  It makes me sick to the stomach that the people who engineered the ban are actually proud of it, THEY have caused untold suffering to thousands of horses, some are just left to starve, some have been beaten to death and the remainder packed off to Canada if they are lucky, Mexico if not.
		
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I always remember the first video of a Mexican slaughterhouse that I watched and always remember the horses being slaughtered in view of each other, it has always stayed with me, a grey mare enclosed in the line when it was her turn constantly ducking her head as the workers tried to kill her, first time they fired they missed, second time they got her. It was one of the most heartwrenching things I have seen, every time she raised her head they tried and she ducked.  The rest of the video was probably more cruel but for some reason, she has always stayed in my head. I know to anthromorphise is wrong but it was as if she knew what they were going to do.


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## Ted's mum (10 November 2010)

Tankey said:



			I find the use of language very interesting in this thread.
If you have your horse shot at home then it is being PTS or euthanised, whereas if you have your horse shot at Potters or Turners, it is being slaughtered.
Whether your horse is shot, injected, slaughtered, put to sleep, goes to sleep (as someone said ), then end result is the same and the horse is dead..end of.
		
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completely agree!! I dont see why this post is soo long...its quite simple really whether it goes to potters and killed humanely or gets PTS at home ...THE HORSE IS DEAD in the end whatever method used..gunshot is the quickest and most painless way IMO. if everybody were 'fluffy bunnies' then the world would be way overcrowded with knackers, dangerous horses and maybe ill horses...one of my warmbloods who is 17.2hh+ who may I add not a good doer..so takes some feding esp in winter etc - he has wobblers syndrome - it isnt going to get better and will get worse..is it fair that I keep him alive or sell him on as I dont want the expense of a horse I cannot do anything with?? if I was rich I dare say things may be different - I may be able to keep him and keep pumping the grub into him....but its a deadloss and not fair on him to be alive having wobblers and being a poor do-er...or worse being passed around and may get into the wrong hands and sold as a riding horse if I were to give him away ...so whats your opinions on what I should do then? I can answer that myself he needs to be PTS - either at potters or at home, once he is dead - what difference does it make what happens to his carcass once he is dead??????


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## JenJ (10 November 2010)

Oooh, if we're doing IQ willy-waving, can I join in? Mine is 161 

I have little experience with PTS, so have stayed as a lurker for most of this (very informative) thread, but to those who are accusing people of taking to slaughter as a commercial 'enterprise' - do you not think that the amount gained from selling the horse/pony for meat would be completely dwarfed by the amount spent on it, just in the last couple of months of its life, even if it's been kept cheaply? No-one is in horses for the money...


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## *hic* (10 November 2010)

JenJ said:



			Oooh, if we're doing IQ willy-waving, can I join in? Mine is 161 

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*bows down before super genius*


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## missyme10 (10 November 2010)

JenJ said:



			Oooh, if we're doing IQ willy-waving, can I join in? Mine is 161 

I have little experience with PTS, so have stayed as a lurker for most of this (very informative) thread, but to those who are accusing people of taking to slaughter as a commercial 'enterprise' - do you not think that the amount gained from selling the horse/pony for meat would be completely dwarfed by the amount spent on it, just in the last couple of months of its life, even if it's been kept cheaply? No-one is in horses for the money...
		
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I would like to particuarly pick up on: "No-one is in horses for the money................................what ?
There are a lot of people who make plenty of money out of horses, Potters for starters wouldn't operate if there was no profit, the "meat man" at horse auctions makes a profit and this is often there sole income!
Then we have horse dealers, both good ones and bad.......the ones I know of drive blooming nice cars and therefore profit.

I am not suggesting its wrong to make money out of horses, but to think no one is in horses for the money is very naive.

If your talking about your average Jo Bloggs horse owner, of course there is no profit in death, horses are far to damn good at emptying your bank balance


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## JenJ (10 November 2010)

missyme10 said:



			I would like to particuarly pick up on: "No-one is in horses for the money................................what ?
There are a lot of people who make plenty of money out of horses, Potters for starters wouldn't operate if there was no profit, the "meat man" at horse auctions makes a profit and this is often there sole income!
Then we have horse dealers, both good ones and bad.......the ones I know of drive blooming nice cars and therefore profit.

I am not suggesting its wrong to make money out of horses, but to think no one is in horses for the money is very naive.

If your talking about your average Jo Bloggs horse owner, of course there is no profit in death, horses are far to damn good at emptying your bank balance 

Click to expand...

Ah, I wasn't suggesting that people don't *make* money from horses, obviously businesses need to turn a profit else they'd cease to exist, and all yards/schools/dealers etc are businesses. But it's not generally an industry that makes a lot of money. People that are out to make a quick buck are likely to use another industry to do so - the majority in the horse world are there because they love being around horses.

If money wasn't an issue, I'd work as a groom. As it is, I earn 10 times more than I would as a working pupil, and have a nicer lifestyle, albeit less horse-scented


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## natalia (10 November 2010)

Missyme10 - I'm afraid to say you have a very "black beauty" outlook on things, esp. regarding money in meat horses. A horse is ALWAYS worth more alive and useful. End of. Potters don't also always pay you for small ponies and foals, they will dispatch them but they have no real meat value. If you want me to go in to how this all works in depth them PM me! The horses ending up at UK markets are normally sadly there for a reason, those who have been passed round market to market and are well "known" to regular traders will tend to only fetch about £400, this is what most people who buy reg. out the sales will take a punt on. This is STILL more than meat money. This would normally be a chancey buy that you would have a go with to sort out. Add in to the cost of the horse of keep and transport, even if only for a few days. Unless you are purchasing large horses for about £200 a head there really is NO MONEY in sending horses to slaughter and even then profit would only be £100 or so poss. less after your expenses. Compare this to the £400 average you would get from a sale and there's no comparison really, hence why horses are pushed pillar to post round the sales when they really should end up in a place like Potters. So in fact, the horses who do end up there are the lucky ones, who have escaped the downward market spiral. And rest assured, there is NOTHING more heartbreaking than seeing a horse that you used to own in bad condition at the sales.


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## Natch (10 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			as for the process inside the closed barn..do you want me to tell you how that works as well?
		
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Um.. well I do actually  please would you be so kind? 



Over2You said:



			1. What - being left lying on the ground, unable to get up, and in agony. Until about twenty minutes later, someone (who had been watching the entire time) eventually comes along and ends the misery. How often does this sort of thing happen? If it's happened once, then who is to say it isn't a regular occurrence?

That's like saying that you've seen an owner abuse a dog, therefore dog abuse is a regular occurance. That Spindles farm is a regular occurance. That the whole baby P affair is a regular occurance. One sighting does not necessarily mean something is a regular occurance.

2. Emphasis on potentially. All these ifs and mights. Never giving chances to animals to improve their behaviour. It's no wonder they become 'dangerous' in the first place. All those negative vibes going about. You can actually instigate aggressive behaviours with your energy. What's happened to calm assertiveness. 

3. I would have a qualm about it. There's usually a good reason for a dog to bite/attack. For reasons stated in #2 and that most people haven't a clue how to read a dog's body language. As always the animal pays the ultimate price.
		
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  Animals can be unpredictable. Thats one of the reasons why many of us love the little darlings 



dubble said:



			No words, just.... 
	
	
		
		
	


	




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Oi, there's nowt wrong with hugging a tree you know  

Think my question or the answer got lost some 40 odd pages back, but if anybody is going to Turners on business, I'd be interested in going and seeing it for myself if I could come with you.

As for all those people who say what horses do and don't feel and think - how can you possibly know?! All you can say unless you are an intuitive is that the horses exhibited signs of or a lack of such and such behaviour - their mental processes may or may not match that outward appearance.


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## the_sophies (10 November 2010)

This is what happened when they banned slaughter in America.  (Warning: sensationalist journalism, but you get the idea.  Not for the squeamish).

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5175642.html

"Horses at the Ciudad Juarez plant are stabbed in the back until the spinal cord is severed, then hoisted so their throats can be slit."

http://rtfitch.wordpress.com/2010/0...port-pens-feed-mexicos-horse-slaughter-trade/

Illegal slaughter farm in Florida:

http://www.examiner.com/animal-righ...laughterhouses-southwest-florida?render=print

In the EU:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/397/151975.html

I for one was impressed by the video of the gray pony at Potter's.  What opponents of places like that need to realise is that THIS is the alternative, as long as there is a surplus of horses.  Nobody is going to pay for these horses to be PTS at home.  Nobody.


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## vixann (10 November 2010)

DragonSlayer said:



			Bloody hell!

Took me forever!

My opinion is as follows -

It is the right of any owner to dispose of their animal as they see fit.

HOWEVER....

I believe the OP should have asked for the contact details and LEFT IT THERE. I do not believe it was wise to ask meat prices as I think it was the catalyst that started WW3 here. The fact that she is considering it however, does not fill me with dread, she is being extremely sensible in the choice. 

If someone buys a horse, then they MUST look at the eventual end of said horse. Both my two veterans were PTS at home with injections, although I could not afford to have them cremated and returned, I was ensuring that the meat would NOT enter the food chain. My choice. Both ends were peaceful, and dignified, the vets themselves conducted the whole affair from beginning to end with extreme professionalism. I thought about the bills later.

It is not my choice to send my horses to become food. But if it is someone elses, then THAT is perfectly acceptable. I am not going to sit and bray you out for making that choice.

My sons pony had to be PTS at the vet, by injection, because his surgery was not successful, if I could, I would have planned it at home.

I think that horse owners who say 'I can't afford to have it PTS because...' really need to take stock of their financial obligation to their animals. And yes, I knew of a couple of people personally who have said this.

To have a horse destroyed because it is dangerous, is a VERY sensible thing to do. If your dog bit a neighbour, chances are, it would be PTS....why is a horse any different?

To those people who seem to revel in accusing anyone who accepts the use of a slaughterhouse as evil spawns of Satan, you really need to wake up and smell the coffee. This is REAL LIFE. Scary, isn't it?

The End.
		
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do i have to say it again??? really????


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## vixann (10 November 2010)

teddyt said:



			Owning a horse shouldnt be selfishly conditional. You may have put alot of time and effort into the pony but it doesnt mean that it was the_right_ time and effort for that particular pony. If he didnt understand you or for some reason couldnt communicate his difficulties to you so you could help him then its not his fault. PTS by all means (im not against that if pony is dangerous) but wanting a few quid as some kind of compensation is ridiculous and selfish.
		
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even if that few quid was to be spent on other horses? why shouldnt I anyway?


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## martlin (10 November 2010)

vixann said:



			do i have to say it again??? really????
		
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I'll say it for you, it was ME who asked about price per kilo


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## pastie2 (10 November 2010)

vixann said:



			even if that few quid was to be spent on other horses? why shouldnt I anyway?
		
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What if another horse owned by you is also misunderstood and ends up in the same predicament as the one you have given up on. Sorry OP but you dont or shouldnt just jump from one horse to another. Have you tried looking at your own skills of horsemanship?


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## jaypeebee (10 November 2010)

vixann said:



			do i have to say it again??? really????
		
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Just to remind you as you seem to be having memory failure and jumping on every one who also noted that you did indeed ask how much you would get for the pony from the slaughter house.  You said "Does anyone know how much ponies are bringing at the moment?"


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## DragonSlayer (10 November 2010)

jaypeebee said:



			Just to remind you as you seem to be having memory failure and jumping on every one who also noted that you did indeed ask how much you would get for the pony from the slaughter house.  You said "Does anyone know how much ponies are bringing at the moment?"
		
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Thank you.

You will also note OP, that I'm not out to 'get you', as I said, I believe you caused this unrest by posting such. sorry, but there it is.


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## pastie2 (10 November 2010)

jaypeebee said:



			Just to remind you as you seem to be having memory failure and jumping on every one who also noted that you did indeed ask how much you would get for the pony from the slaughter house.  You said "Does anyone know how much ponies are bringing at the moment?"
		
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Thank you jaypeedee. It is good to remind the OP of her opening post!!


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## Sandstone1 (10 November 2010)

vixann said:



			This wont be a popular post and I don't want peoples opinions please if you are going to say the usual rubbish
Does anyone know how much ponies are bringing at the moment?
7yo 14hh stocky native type?
Thanks
		
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This was the first post.


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## vixann (10 November 2010)

pastie2 said:



			What if another horse owned by you is also misunderstood and ends up in the same predicament as the one you have given up on. Sorry OP but you dont or shouldnt just jump from one horse to another. Have you tried looking at your own skills of horsemanship?
		
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Oh I see so this is my first horse and it hasnt worked out?
I work with young horses, unbacked horses, problem horses - this is the 1st time this has happened to me - The pony has been tried by someone else before me and I have had parelli nuts look at  him - i havnt just woke up one morning and said think ill give up now for no reason. Dont judge my horsemanship skills and I wont judge yours. 
Sorry to say but when he goes his stable will be filled with another - possibly from the sales - is that not allowed either?


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## vixann (10 November 2010)

itsmylife said:



			This was the first post.
		
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yes well done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

oh you ARE clever


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## thatsmygirl (10 November 2010)

natalia said:



			Missyme10 - I'm afraid to say you have a very "black beauty" outlook on things, esp. regarding money in meat horses. A horse is ALWAYS worth more alive and useful. End of. Potters don't also always pay you for small ponies and foals, they will dispatch them but they have no real meat value. If you want me to go in to how this all works in depth them PM me! The horses ending up at UK markets are normally sadly there for a reason, those who have been passed round market to market and are well "known" to regular traders will tend to only fetch about £400, this is what most people who buy reg. out the sales will take a punt on. This is STILL more than meat money. This would normally be a chancey buy that you would have a go with to sort out. Add in to the cost of the horse of keep and transport, even if only for a few days. Unless you are purchasing large horses for about £200 a head there really is NO MONEY in sending horses to slaughter and even then profit would only be £100 or so poss. less after your expenses. Compare this to the £400 average you would get from a sale and there's no 
comparison really, hence why horses are pushed pillar to post round the sales when they really should end up in a place like Potters. So in fact, the horses who do end up there are the lucky ones, who have escaped the downward market spiral. And rest assured, there is NOTHING more heartbreaking than seeing a horse that you used to own in bad condition at the sales.
		
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very good post and very true off the poor mites at the sales this week I saw.


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## pastie2 (10 November 2010)

vixann said:



			Oh I see so this is my first horse and it hasnt worked out?
I work with young horses, unbacked horses, problem horses - this is the 1st time this has happened to me - The pony has been tried by someone else before me and I have had parelli nuts look at  him - i havnt just woke up one morning and said think ill give up now for no reason. Dont judge my horsemanship skills and I wont judge yours. 
Sorry to say but when he goes his stable will be filled with another - possibly from the sales - is that not allowed either?
		
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I am sorry to have offended you, but if your opening post was anything to go by, I am sure as hell wont freeze that I wouldnt want to send you a horse to sort out.


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## vixann (10 November 2010)

pastie2 said:



			I am sorry to have offended you, but if your opening post was anything to go by, I am sure as hell wont freeze that I wouldnt want to send you a horse to sort out.
		
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did i ask you to?


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## missyme10 (10 November 2010)

natalia said:



			Missyme10 - I'm afraid to say you have a very "black beauty" outlook on things, esp. regarding money in meat horses. A horse is ALWAYS worth more alive and useful. End of. Potters don't also always pay you for small ponies and foals, they will dispatch them but they have no real meat value. If you want me to go in to how this all works in depth them PM me! The horses ending up at UK markets are normally sadly there for a reason, those who have been passed round market to market and are well "known" to regular traders will tend to only fetch about £400, this is what most people who buy reg. out the sales will take a punt on. This is STILL more than meat money. This would normally be a chancey buy that you would have a go with to sort out. Add in to the cost of the horse of keep and transport, even if only for a few days. Unless you are purchasing large horses for about £200 a head there really is NO MONEY in sending horses to slaughter and even then profit would only be £100 or so poss. less after your expenses. Compare this to the £400 average you would get from a sale and there's no comparison really, hence why horses are pushed pillar to post round the sales when they really should end up in a place like Potters. So in fact, the horses who do end up there are the lucky ones, who have escaped the downward market spiral. And rest assured, there is NOTHING more heartbreaking than seeing a horse that you used to own in bad condition at the sales.
		
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Sorry but I disagree, in the current climate, a horse isn't always worth more alive and useful than dead, the market is so dire people can't give horses away.
Just look at all your unwanted abandoned ponies, who is gonna pay anything for them?
The reality is they are worth more as meat, and I'm sorry but I've seen pics of ponies that have gone to potters, nice fine ponies, just no one wants them - so its not like they are all unsound, ill, old, or nutters. 
Look at the 3 nativeponies bought from potters field that are now useful ponies?
They sure as hell dont look ready for the knackers yard in the pics. Just your average unwanted pony thats veryging on worthless in the current market.
This of course supports the need for the likes of potters, and I do agree with need abattoirs.

I also dont agree there is hardly any money in it, the "meat man" seen lurking at every sale in the UK seems to make a decent living! As do many others that are behind closed curtains meat men!

I do stand by what I've previously said and further explained in more recent posts, and that is I have issues with people who have little regard for life, particuarly those that supposedly claim to "save" these equines, and claim to be genuine horse lovers, when they are not better than the meat man and are in it for a quick buck. I'm talking your regular users, but one persons definition of regular may not be anothers, so misunderstandings may occur!! 
I'm not talking about people like the OP - totally agree with her sending her dangerous horse to potters,

Hardly a "Black Beauty" outlook? I'm not even sure what that is tbh!! Similar to fluffy bunny ?


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## thatsmygirl (10 November 2010)

vixann said:



			Oh I see so this is my first horse and it hasnt worked out?
I work with young horses, unbacked horses, problem horses - this is the 1st time this has happened to me - The pony has been tried by someone else before me and I have had parelli nuts look at  him - i havnt just woke up one morning and said think ill give up now for no reason. Dont judge my horsemanship skills and I wont judge yours. 
Sorry to say but when he goes his stable will be filled with another - possibly from the sales - is that not allowed either?
		
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Win some/ lose some but to get a dangerous horse out off this world is the best thing


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## thatsmygirl (10 November 2010)

NP - bought from Potters field??
Can you buy off Potters once the horses are sent for meat?
This is interesting


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## Maesfen (10 November 2010)

jemima_too said:



			I really hope for you and for your horse that the end for her comes as you want it to BUT it is as well to be aware of the other options and what they mean to the horse because there are old horses, as with some people, where the blood vessels have collapsed sufficiently that a needle cannot easily be inserted. .
		
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This is exactly what happened when Ben, our Border Terrier was PTS and he was so much lighter than any horse of course.  Luckily, he was sedated first so did not know anything about it but I am heartbroken that what should have been a simple job, putting an old dog out of his suffering ended up almost being botched and this was in an up to date surgery with everything to hand.  It was the longest ten minutes I've known and my over riding memory of him; it shouldn't have been like that at all, I should have been relieved that he wasn't suffering and remembering him as a young dog full of fun, not the sight of the needle being moved about so much in the hunt for a vein.  I wouldn't like anyone else to go through that at such a traumatic moment for them; I'm a pretty strong person but that dissolved me in bits and yet another reminder why I wouldn't use it on my horses..


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## Sandstone1 (10 November 2010)

vixann said:



			yes well done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

oh you ARE clever
		
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clever enough to not have a dangerous horse.


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## *hic* (10 November 2010)

Sorry Pat, I didn't mean to bring it all back for you.

Think hard on the happy memories


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## SusannaF (10 November 2010)

Tankey said:



			I find the use of language very interesting in this thread.
If you have your horse shot at home then it is being PTS or euthanised, whereas if you have your horse shot at Potters or Turners, it is being slaughtered.
Whether your horse is shot, injected, slaughtered, put to sleep, goes to sleep (as someone said ), then end result is the same and the horse is dead..end of.
		
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My understanding is:

Slaughter = horse goes for meat, owner potentially makes a (small) profit.
Euthanasia = horse buried, rendered or cremated, owners pays for it.

And that's the nub of the heated feelings on the subject.


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## Dolcé (10 November 2010)

itsmylife said:



			clever enough to not have a dangerous horse.
		
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does that make you clever or just fortunate?  Having seen a dangerous horse in action, including physically attacking the 4x4 that was preventing it escaping onto a road, and attacking other horses over their stable doors whilst it ran wild, having seen the injuries it inflicted on people in earlier attacks one of whom almost lost his life, I wish the owner had taken him to potters when advised after the very first human attack.  I wouldn't wish that on anyone but to see you judging an owner who had made that call before anyone is killed is sickening, and people on here call her irresponsible!!  Had this horse attacked your horses in the field then I would bet you would be the first screaming for it to be pts and that you wouldn't care how it was done.  Why is it impossible for some of you to accept that some horses are just nasty and dangerous, perhaps caused by humans in their past but way beyond any 'curing', you obviously have no idea at all just how dangerous our much loved animals can be if they so choose!  I would love one of you to take this pony from Vixann just to see her proved right, so come on, put your money where your mouth is and offer it a genuine (and for life) home!!!!


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## nativetyponies (10 November 2010)

thatsmygirl said:



			NP - bought from Potters field??
Can you buy off Potters once the horses are sent for meat?
This is interesting
		
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Not at all interesting really, these are the ones bought in by the Operator...NOT those taken there by Joe Public...


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## Holly Hocks (10 November 2010)

I can't believe this thread is still going and has provoked so much emotional response.  Everyone is always going to have different views and sentiments. I can't understand the OP posting such a provocative thread on here.  If the decision has been made to send the pony to the abbatoir, then what does it matter what money it is bringing?  Just make the decision and get on with it, or are you holding on for an extra £10 in case prices go up next week?


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## Sandstone1 (10 November 2010)

hch4971 said:



			does that make you clever or just fortunate?  Having seen a dangerous horse in action, including physically attacking the 4x4 that was preventing it escaping onto a road, and attacking other horses over their stable doors whilst it ran wild, having seen the injuries it inflicted on people in earlier attacks one of whom almost lost his life, I wish the owner had taken him to potters when advised after the very first human attack.  I wouldn't wish that on anyone but to see you judging an owner who had made that call before anyone is killed is sickening, and people on here call her irresponsible!!  Had this horse attacked your horses in the field then I would bet you would be the first screaming for it to be pts and that you wouldn't care how it was done.  Why is it impossible for some of you to accept that some horses are just nasty and dangerous, perhaps caused by humans in their past but way beyond any 'curing', you obviously have no idea at all just how dangerous our much loved animals can be if they so choose!  I would love one of you to take this pony from Vixann just to see her proved right, so come on, put your money where your mouth is and offer it a genuine (and for life) home!!!!
		
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I am well aware that some animals can be dangerous thanks, I already have animals who for one reason or another cant be ridden and they have a home for life with me.
I simply quoted the ops first post and had a childish reply from her. If i was in the ops position and if pony in question is really dangerous and every other avenue had been explored the pony would be put down at home. Not dragged to a slaugherhouse. If the pony really is that dangerous how are they going to catch it and load it anyway?


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## BeccaandRoo (10 November 2010)

ok so this may seem a silly question, but, thank goodness, so far ive never had to have a pony put down, and 59 pages is an awful lot to read!

is having a horse taken to somewhere like potters the only option because a vet wont put it down at home as it isnt diagnosed with any illness? 
or is taking it to a factory place an option because it pays the horse owner rather than the horse owner paying a vet?


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## martlin (10 November 2010)

A factory place? strange way of putting it... but, anyway, it is a financial consideration to send a horse to abattoir. Other options are:
put down by a vet by lethal injection
shot by a vet
shot by a huntsman
shot by a knackerman


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## Show Girl (10 November 2010)

Rebelzmum said:



			I can't believe this thread is still going and has provoked so much emotional response.  Everyone is always going to have different views and sentiments. I can't understand the OP posting such a provocative thread on here.  If the decision has been made to send the pony to the abbatoir, then what does it matter what money it is bringing?  Just make the decision and get on with it, or are you holding on for an extra £10 in case prices go up next week?
		
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Well said.
I've stayed out of commenting on this thread so far although I have read most of the pages throughout the day, I must say I'm shocked by some of the obviously provoking comments made by some people on here, is it really necessary?


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## Orangehorse (10 November 2010)

You do get some money from an abbatoir, if it is fit for consumption.  You have to get them there, so that is a cost.
If you had an animal that the vet wouldn't put down, a knacker would shoot it for you and take the body away, for a price. Telephone number in Yellow Pages or the local farming papers.
I expect a local hunt would shoot it as well, although they might hesitate for a "healthy" animal.  You would have to pay for disposal as well.


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## Dolcé (10 November 2010)

itsmylife said:



			I am well aware that some animals can be dangerous thanks, I already have animals who for one reason or another cant be ridden and they have a home for life with me.
I simply quoted the ops first post and had a childish reply from her. If i was in the ops position and if pony in question is really dangerous and every other avenue had been explored the pony would be put down at home. Not dragged to a slaugherhouse. If the pony really is that dangerous how are they going to catch it and load it anyway?
		
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But as the owner of the horse then that is her call and not really for anyone else to judge. You probably got a childish reply because what you posted had been posted several times throughout the thread and I would imagine she is totally pi**ed off with having to defend the same point again and again.  With your animals that cannot be ridden, is that because they are dangerous to ride, how would you cope if they were dangerous to handle at all because they simply wanted to hurt any human they came across.  How would you cope with vet, dentist, farrier, grooming? What about your field having a public footpath meaning you couldn't turn the animal out because it may attack an innocent person, the livery yard having children with ponies that have to skirt around your stable in case your horse attacks them or their ponies.  The people who are judging Vixann on here know nothing about her or her set up, she has already said she is an experienced horsewoman, yet some are so arrogant that they think they must be better without even knowing her.  So what if she is taking the pony to the slaughterhouse, perhaps she cannot afford cremation and is not in a position to bury, whichever method she chooses results in the same thing.  Perhaps she should just drug the animal and send it to auction for someone else to have destroyed at their home, hopefully before it has attacked someone!  Just because some of us are sentimental about our horses doesn't mean that others don't care because they don't do things 'our' way!


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## BeccaandRoo (10 November 2010)

martlin said:



			A factory place? strange way of putting it...
		
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haha mind went blank and couldnt remember the word abbatoir.
thank you for clearing that up for me Martlin and Orangehorse.
just out of curiosity would you need anything official signed to say it died if it was put down by, say a huntsman, or knackerman?


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## Fairynuff (10 November 2010)

much adoe about nothing-me thinks!


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## *hic* (10 November 2010)

AFAIK no - I suppose if you were going to try to claim off the insurance there might be an issue, the insurance company would need to be notified beforehand and agree to the animal's destruction. I don't believe that horses are regulated as much as pigs or sheep where I have to get a note to say that the animal has been properly disposed of.


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## Sandstone1 (10 November 2010)

hch4971 said:



			But as the owner of the horse then that is her call and not really for anyone else to judge. You probably got a childish reply because what you posted had been posted several times throughout the thread and I would imagine she is totally pi**ed off with having to defend the same point again and again.  With your animals that cannot be ridden, is that because they are dangerous to ride, how would you cope if they were dangerous to handle at all because they simply wanted to hurt any human they came across.  How would you cope with vet, dentist, farrier, grooming? What about your field having a public footpath meaning you couldn't turn the animal out because it may attack an innocent person, the livery yard having children with ponies that have to skirt around your stable in case your horse attacks them or their ponies.  The people who are judging Vixann on here know nothing about her or her set up, she has already said she is an experienced horsewoman, yet some are so arrogant that they think they must be better without even knowing her.  So what if she is taking the pony to the slaughterhouse, perhaps she cannot afford cremation and is not in a position to bury, whichever method she chooses results in the same thing.  Perhaps she should just drug the animal and send it to auction for someone else to have destroyed at their home, hopefully before it has attacked someone!  Just because some of us are sentimental about our horses doesn't mean that others don't care because they don't do things 'our' way!
		
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As I said if he pony really is that dangerous how are they even going to get it to the slaughterhouse?? What ever the op decides to do I suggest she gets on with it.


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## Dolcé (10 November 2010)

itsmylife said:



			As I said if he pony really is that dangerous how are they even going to get it to the slaughterhouse?? What ever the op decides to do I suggest she gets on with it.
		
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I don't know, you will have to ask Vixann that, I am sure she will have a plan!


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## lannerch (10 November 2010)

the pony may well be dangerous in a way that does not affect its ability to travel to the slaughter house!

Many dangerous animals travel quetly are you not just going a little ott!!?


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## jaypeebee (10 November 2010)

I think it is a strange horse owner who even thinks about travelling a horse 4 hours and hundreds of miles just to have it killed.  That makes no sense to me at all.


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## martlin (10 November 2010)

Do you know where OP lives? And where she is taking the horse?


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## Show Girl (10 November 2010)

martlin said:



			Do you know where OP lives? And where she is taking the horse?
		
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Well according to OP she is in West Yorkshire and Potters is in Somerset, I'm assuming thats where the horse will go as this is now the 61st page on the subject of Potters.


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## martlin (10 November 2010)

I would imagine Turners would be a tad closer...


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## Dolcé (10 November 2010)

or perhaps she will decide the journey and cost is not viable and will arrange for local knacker man to  deal with it, perhaps that is why she needed to know the price they were going for in the first place, so that she could make an informed decision...........


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## lannerch (10 November 2010)

Show Girl said:



			Well according to OP she is in West Yorkshire and Potters is in Somerset, I'm assuming thats where the horse will go as this is now the 61st page on the subject of Potters.
		
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west yorkshire to nantwich she will have to drive very slowly if it takes as long as 4hours !
west yorkshire to somerset then she will have to drive impossibly fast to make it in a horsebox in only 4 hours!


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## Dolcé (10 November 2010)

lannerch said:



			west yorkshire to nantwich she will have to drive very slowly if it takes as long as 4hours !
west yorkshire to somerset then she will have to drive impossibly fast to make it in a horsebox in only 4 hours!
		
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LOL, I can't believe someone even bothered looking up the distance and tried to work out the travelling time just so they could 'have a pop' at OP


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## Show Girl (10 November 2010)

lannerch said:



			west yorkshire to nantwich she will have to drive very slowly if it takes as long as 4hours !
west yorkshire to somerset then she will have to drive impossibly fast to make it in a horsebox in only 4 hours!
		
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Did I mention how long it would take? No I just answered someone elses question on where OP lives and where presumeably as this is about Potters where the pony could possibly be going.


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## jaypeebee (10 November 2010)

hch4971 said:



			LOL, I can't believe someone even bothered looking up the distance and tried to work out the travelling time just so they could 'have a pop' at OP
		
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And here we go again   I made a completely valid comment and any one with even the smallest amount of grey matter would understand that considering Potters appears to have been the slaugher house of choice.  And for your information I have made no pop at the OP.  You on the other hand young lady have been rude, condescending and patronising at every opportunity on this thread.


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## Maesfen (10 November 2010)

Don't worry, Jem but thanks for that.  I have plenty of good memories of him, it's just horrid that that's the last one apart from burying him in the garden of course where he now has a nice bush over him.


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## Dolcé (10 November 2010)

jaypeebee said:



			And here we go again   I made a completely valid comment and any one with even the smallest amount of grey matter would understand that considering Potters appears to have been the slaugher house of choice.  And for your information I have made no pop at the OP.  You on the other hand young lady have been rude, condescending and patronising at every opportunity on this thread.
		
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I haven't been rude, condescending or patronising at all, I just don't suffer fools gladly, it was ok for you to call OP a 'strange horse owner' because she asked a valid question, that was your opinion, just as I thought it was funny that you worked out the distance and travel time (regardless of the fact that W Yorks is quite a big place that could make an hour on or off the journey depending where OP actually lives) just so you could post a comment.  I quite like being called 'young lady' though!


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## LEC (10 November 2010)

Can I just mention that the rules have changed regarding slaughter of horses and any horses that have had drugs of any kind (bute etc) cannot now enter the food chain. This is instead of the old rules of allowing 6 weeks for withdrawal. A dreadful rule IMO and one DEFRA has imposed. I think its a negative step for animal welfare. Unless you have signed the back of the passport, vets should now be listing any drugs the horse has had in the passport that would affect its right to enter the food chain. Someone may correct me on the above but this is my understanding.


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## jaypeebee (10 November 2010)

hch4971 said:



			I haven't been rude, condescending or patronising at all, I just don't suffer fools gladly, it was ok for you to call OP a 'strange horse owner' because she asked a valid question, that was your opinion, just as I thought it was funny that you worked out the distance and travel time (regardless of the fact that W Yorks is quite a big place that could make an hour on or off the journey depending where OP actually lives) just so you could post a comment.  I quite like being called 'young lady' though!
		
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Oh please.  I know how long it takes to get from one place in England to another.  Only an untravelled person would not know off the top of their head roughly how long it should take to get from A to B.  And yes it is a strange horse owner who would travel their horse miles and miles out of their way just to have it killed.  I actually have a feeling this thread is a great big joke at the expense of the softer members of this forum.  I am not one of those members but I am also not blind.  There has been a great deal of unkindness on this thread.


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## martlin (10 November 2010)

Yes, apparently if the horse has had 'bute' ever, it can't enter human food chain.
How would anybody go about proving it is another matter...
It is a bizarre decision, especially that phenylbutazone is a human drug and withdrawal periods are known (from competition horses' testing), but as the withdrawal periods haven't been specifically tested for slaughter/meat purposes, according to DEFRA they are not valid.
Madness


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## Maesfen (10 November 2010)

hch4971 said:



			LOL, I can't believe someone even bothered looking up the distance and tried to work out the travelling time just so they could 'have a pop' at OP
		
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If you know your geography there'd be no working it out involved; simples.


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## jaypeebee (10 November 2010)

LEC said:



			Can I just mention that the rules have changed regarding slaughter of horses and any horses that have had drugs of any kind (bute etc) cannot now enter the food chain. This is instead of the old rules of allowing 6 weeks for withdrawal. A dreadful rule IMO and one DEFRA has imposed. I think its a negative step for animal welfare. Unless you have signed the back of the passport, vets should now be listing any drugs the horse has had in the passport that would affect its right to enter the food chain. Someone may correct me on the above but this is my understanding.
		
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How does this affect auction horses who have barely any veterinary history with them?


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## Dolcé (10 November 2010)

LEC said:



			Can I just mention that the rules have changed regarding slaughter of horses and any horses that have had drugs of any kind (bute etc) cannot now enter the food chain. This is instead of the old rules of allowing 6 weeks for withdrawal. A dreadful rule IMO and one DEFRA has imposed. I think its a negative step for animal welfare. Unless you have signed the back of the passport, vets should now be listing any drugs the horse has had in the passport that would affect its right to enter the food chain. Someone may correct me on the above but this is my understanding.
		
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I've yet to  be asked for a passport by the vet whenever mine have been treated, I've used the same vet for 5 years, they have only passported one of mine and have never checked that the other 12 even have them despite prescribing bute and other relevant meds several times.  If this is the way most vets work then I can't see it making a major difference although all mine are signed as not for consumption anyway so I guess Knackers or vet would be my only options.  I would imagine that the bulk of animals that go through the slaughterhouse come from the low end dealers who would likely just replace any passport that meant they might not get their money anyway.  As usual, the Defra decisions will only adversely affect the legitimate horse owners who follow the rules and won't be able to take their horses to the likes of Potters.


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## martlin (10 November 2010)

You can still take them to the abattoir, just not get the money (or not as much). The same as you still can take TB infected cattle...and they can enter the food chain (the TB cattle).


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## LizzieJ (10 November 2010)

Two years ago we had a Hereford Heifer who was nasty as hell - she went to Stillmans - is that better?

ets if it is, then why? yes she was a beef breed but was bred to breed herself so what is the difference?


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## missyme10 (10 November 2010)

martlin said:



			Yes, apparently if the horse has had 'bute' ever, it can't enter human food chain.
How would anybody go about proving it is another matter...
It is a bizarre decision, especially that phenylbutazone is a human drug and withdrawal periods are known (from competition horses' testing), but as the withdrawal periods haven't been specifically tested for slaughter/meat purposes, according to DEFRA they are not valid.
Madness
		
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I know they can't enter the human food chain if they have had bute, but will the hunt still shoot them and feed to hounds?
Or is that not allowed either?
I think I'm just not sure that if that bit of passport is signed, does it mean they can't be slaughtered full stop? x


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## martlin (11 November 2010)

I'm not sure about hunt and hounds, but you can take them to slaughter.


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## Dolcé (11 November 2010)

jaypeebee said:



			Oh please.  I know how long it takes to get from one place in England to another.  Only an untravelled person would not know off the top of their head roughly how long it should take to get from A to B.  And yes it is a strange horse owner who would travel their horse miles and miles out of their way just to have it killed.  I actually have a feeling this thread is a great big joke at the expense of the softer members of this forum.  I am not one of those members but I am also not blind.  There has been a great deal of unkindness on this thread.
		
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The untravelled would be me then, although I never travelled that far in a horsebox! 

 I don't think it is a joke, I think OP had a genuine question so that she could consider her options, it could also be that she didn't know that there were only 2 slaughterers in the country that dealt with horses as opposed to knacker men who will slaughter but not for the human food chain.  I don't think there has been a lot of unkindness on the thread (well apart from when the 'troll' appeared last night, and I will admit to being rude to her because she was rude to everyone else).  I am surprised at just how calm this thread has been considering the emotional subject, compared to others that have turned into free for alls and were far less emotional.  I think there has been a lot of very useful information posted on this thread and the insults have been kept to a minimum.  I'm afraid that the 'softer' members of the thread need to be able to face the facts, not everyone thinks in the same way.  They are wrong to judge OP just because they cannot see her way of thinking and they don't know her circumstances.


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## fitzaud2 (11 November 2010)

I thought i did the "right" thing last year, and had by boy put down by injection, really horrible, never again. Had to have my really old mare pts in may, sent her to knackery yard. Done in 2 seconds. You have to be in the situation to understand. 2 seconds versus 10 mins, thats all i have to say!!!!!! And i thought poor cooper was going to be gone before he knew it!!!!


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## Dolcé (11 November 2010)

fitzaud2 said:



			I thought i did the "right" thing last year, and had by boy put down by injection, really horrible, never again. Had to have my really old mare pts in may, sent her to knackery yard. Done in 2 seconds. You have to be in the situation to understand. 2 seconds versus 10 mins, thats all i have to say!!!!!! And i thought poor cooper was going to be gone before he knew it!!!!
		
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Yes, the stories on this thread have put me totally off LI, I was in two minds anyway after having a hen put down by an inexperienced vet and that taking 15 minutes instead of her just pulling the neck and it being done in seconds, I figure if they couldn't get it right with a hen what chance is there with a horse!  I honestly think I will choose knacker over vet when the time comes.


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## jaypeebee (11 November 2010)

hch4971 said:



			I'm afraid that the 'softer' members of the thread need to be able to face the facts, not everyone thinks in the same way.
		
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From what Ive read the softer members of this thread are well aware of the facts.  Life is precious but life means death in the end.  There *is* a difference with the way death comes about.  Every one who owns and is emotionally attached to their animals including so called fluffy bunnies have to make the decision on the kindest way to bring about the killing of their animal when time comes.  Most people with an oz of generousity (sp) and kindness would make this end as comfortable for their animal as is with in their capability.




			They are wrong to judge OP just because they cannot see her way of thinking and they don't know her circumstances.
		
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Also from what Ive read not many people judged the OP.  There were only 2 or 3 people who strongly objected.  There were many more who commented that they did not agree with her method of having the horse killed but they sounded polite about it.

I do not have any problem what so ever with the OP having her pony killed.  If the pony is dangerous in her opinion then it could be that it is better off else where and if that be death then so it should be.  I find it strange that a horse lover would travel so far and spend so many hours transporting a horse to its death when they could so easily have it killed without stress at home.  It seems like OP is trying to punish pony and is glad it will be dead soon.  Scant regard for life.


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## honetpot (11 November 2010)

Whilst this has been very interesting I do get the feeling we are 'fiddling whilist Rome burns'. Wether someone gets or wants meat money is not an issue, the welfare crisis we face over the next few months and years is the issue for me. Anything even if its £50 that presuades someone to euthanase an animal for what ever reason is not assured a home that will provide for its welfare needs should be welcomed. Foals are selling for 2gns, if they sell at all. A bullet costs more than that and disposal under waste management rules a lot more .
 I think most of us would wish to give any pony a chance but the scale of this is immense. I know a dealer who deals in 'killing' horses and there is no market for them, people are giving them to him for free. The sales, even Brightwells are saturated with animals going for 10gns. Some sales have 300-400 animals going through, and looking at the ones my dealer friend has cherry picked to store they are not all runty rubbish.
 TB's yearlings  not sold at Tattersalls are dumped because it 'costs to much' to take them home.
  Lobby breed societies etc to support over breeding and please do not abuse anyone who is making this hard decision for what ever reason.


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## Dolcé (11 November 2010)

Jaypeebee, do you really think that is true?  The impression I get of OP is that she has given this pony a chance, has put a lot of work in and made a decision that there is nothing else for it.  The pony in question could be sold at auction tomorrow for a decent amount of money, if drugged to hide it's dangerous temperament, but she has not chosen this route (thank God)so it is not all about money and I don't think it has been an easy decision for her.  Like I said, maybe she was just looking at her options as let's face it, how viable would it be to transport the pony all that way, there wouldn't be much left out of the money by the time travel was taken off.  We have local knacker men, perhaps (and I am guessing at this) she thought that is where she would be taking the pony and getting paid for it, only she can tell you that for sure.  She did state at the beginning that it wouldn't make her popular and that she didn't want to hear others opinions but she did ask a valid question.  If what she says is true then she is an experienced horsewoman and quite capable of making the judgement on the pony, if she didn't believe she was right why the hell would she take a loss by having the pony PTS rather than selling it on.  I suspect she is at the end of her tether handling a pony that tries to maim her when she has to handle it, having been there I know exactly how she feels, it gets you down.  Whilst I don't think for a minute she will be 'glad' to see it dead I do think she will be relieved when it is over and she doesn't have to worry about being injured giving even basic care.  The 2 or 3 that objected were almost abusive to her without knowing the true circumstances behind her decision.  You will never see the 'fluffy bunny' statement on one of my posts, partly because I am probably the biggest one on the board (and partly because I know that TFC hates the term) but I am also realistic.  The OP is hardly being cruel or abusive to the pony, she has just made a decision that others don't like.


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## Sandstone1 (11 November 2010)

jaypeebee said:



			And here we go again   I made a completely valid comment and any one with even the smallest amount of grey matter would understand that considering Potters appears to have been the slaugher house of choice.  And for your information I have made no pop at the OP.  You on the other hand young lady have been rude, condescending and patronising at every opportunity on this thread.
		
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I agree with this. Everyone is intitled to their opinion, but it seems if you dont agree with certain people on here you are slated.
what ever the op does I hope for the sake of the animal that its quick and stress free. just hope it does not have to travel miles just for the sake of making a few pounds.


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## Amymay (11 November 2010)

glitterbug said:



			This on the whole has been a very informative post but after reading though all 53 pages what strikes me most about the two differing sides is that most people who have no problem with using Potters or turners also say that each to there own about the methods used i.e LI or bullet, hunts or vets whatever suits the individual and circumstances.
the other side seem much more vocal about pushing their points of view home as to why these places are so bad. Is it 'fluffyness' or is it lack of knowledge, I have known several people use Potters and have nothing but praise.
My only personal experience of LI was not pleasant, but would not condemn others for using it.
For some on here a different opinion to theirs is a cardinal sin.
sadly what we would want in an ideal world rarely happens.
		
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Excellent points - well made.


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## Amymay (11 November 2010)

martlin said:



			I'm not sure about hunt and hounds, but you can take them to slaughter.
		
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Apparently - the hunt will still use the carcass, depending on the amount of bute used.


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## Amymay (11 November 2010)

So I've yet to see any kind of usefull response from either Tic Tac or Over2You regarding how they would manage meat or waste production if abbotoirs were closed down.

Really - anything, any ideas at all????????????


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## MosMum (11 November 2010)

Why are horses selling for guineas? Is this in another country or do the sales work differently to 'normal' UK money? Or is 'gns' slang for something? Sorry.


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## *hic* (11 November 2010)

Historically horses at sales have always been sold in guineas. My first pony was bought from the importer in guineas many years ago.


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## Caz89 (11 November 2010)

This appears to have turned into an episode of Jeremy Kyle! Is there any need for some people to be so rude and provoking? I think some people are just using this thread now as a reason to be vile


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## Fuzznugget (11 November 2010)

MosMum said:



			Why are horses selling for guineas? Is this in another country or do the sales work differently to 'normal' UK money? Or is 'gns' slang for something? Sorry.
		
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Being an American transplant, I had to look it up when I first read about the horse selling for guineas, and this is what I found: 




			Even after the coin ceased to circulate, the name guinea was long used to indicate the amount of 21 shillings (£1.05 in decimalised currency). The guinea had an aristocratic overtone; professional fees and payment for land, horses, art, bespoke tailoring, furniture and other luxury items were often quoted in guineas until decimalisation in 1971.
		
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 from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_(British_coin)

As for the dangerous horse, good on the OP for making the decision to have it destroyed. I, personally, see nothing wrong with sending it to slaughter. At least the horses in this country have that option - the ones in the US should be so lucky!


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## nativetyponies (11 November 2010)

Blimey, is this STILL going? 

I left it at page 58..or was it 59?...anyhow, I am amazed that so many "horse lovers" are ignorant of so many facts about the horseworld as a whole..

its all well and good having an opinion of "i'd never do such a horrible thing to my baby" but why haven't you thought of the wider picture here? why havent you thought of the need for an Abattoir? why havent you thought about where all these ponies come from? why are markets teeming with abattoir candidates? why haven't you thought about what you can do to help prevent?

i know why...........because you're all too busy telling others that they are wrong, too busy burying your head in the sand, too busy giving your overweight cob yet another feed it doesnt need....

the real world is out there..instead of coming on here and blowing hot air, get off your arses, get to a market, and voice your objections there..plenty of us do it..and slowly things are getting better...but there is still along way to go....and until legislation actually changes to help animals at grass roots, this subject will be raised time and time again..


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## MosMum (11 November 2010)

orsolya80 said:



			Being an American transplant, I had to look it up when I first read about the horse selling for guineas, and this is what I found:  from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_(British_coin)

As for the dangerous horse, good on the OP for making the decision to have it destroyed. I, personally, see nothing wrong with sending it to slaughter. At least the horses in this country have that option - the ones in the US should be so lucky!
		
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Ahh, thankyou. I'm an American transplant, too.


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## annaellie (11 November 2010)

I have followed this thread with intrest I have had a couple of experiances of PTS. All at the yard and have to admit all the horrid stories have never thought of the meat man as an option. This thread as given other views which is always useful to have. I feel due to my knowlege of Potters etc is just gossip and hearsay it would be wrong for me to express my views on this thread as what I heard could be just that GOSSIP. 

On the subject of dangerous horses I feel that there is times there is no other option than to      Pts sadly. Not all horses are safe to be companions one of my old boys was a 17.2 and a complete nightmare to ride and handle on the ground he would rear up and box down at you. He would also run off and buck out if you tried to hold on to the lead rope/ lunge. He also H
had to have a grass paddock on his own due to the fact he kicked horses to the point were one actually collopsed in feild. How on earth could a horse like him be used as a companion never in a million years. 
I and my instructor managed to turn him around though he still had an elementto him.


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## Dolcé (11 November 2010)

MosMum said:



			Why are horses selling for guineas? Is this in another country or do the sales work differently to 'normal' UK money? Or is 'gns' slang for something? Sorry.
		
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A guinea is £1.05, the seller gets the £1, the auctioneer takes the 5p as their commission, this means there is no 'buyers premium' and what you bid is what you pay.


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## nativetyponies (11 November 2010)

At Brecon market last Saturday, several ponies were being sold for 1guinea..


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## annaellie (11 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			At Brecon market last Saturday, several ponies were being sold for 1guinea..  

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## Pipkin (11 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			At Brecon market last Saturday, several ponies were being sold for 1guinea..  

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Wow, prices were low last time i went but not that low!!!

NP - Are you from wales?


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## nativetyponies (11 November 2010)

I brought home 2 skewbald WPB both registered with the WCPS..both microchipped..for less than £33.00

the chipping/passporting cost more than that....

these 2 were of good stock/good conformation and will, in time, make excellent childs ponies or driving ponies.

others there weren't quite so fortunate..they were of poor quality..and i'm assuming..no, i know, that they'll end up at an Abattoir.

next month, i intend to bring home a couple of empty/barren mares..and back them as riding ponies..at least they will be taken out of the breeding cycle and hopefully have a useful life..and avoid the meat trade too!..these get a raw deal at markets ATM as no-one wants broodmares..so if they are under 10, i'll give them a chance..i could get them for less than £40 each


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## nativetyponies (11 November 2010)

Ayla84 said:



			NP - Are you from wales?
		
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no...


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## Doormouse (11 November 2010)

I've kept quiet so far but finally given in.  

I personally have only taken one horse to Potters, I didn't particularly enjoy it but then who would.

All my horses except one have been shot (doped first) and they have all known nothing about it.  Several of my very good hunters have listened to 'gone away' being blown just before the moment and they have gone happy.  We would all love our old horse to go to sleep and not wake up as we would our friends and relatives but life is never perfect.

I have had one horse pts by lethal injection and it was the most ghastly experience of my life.  He was dying of peritonitis and had been on a drip all night.  When the vet arrived and said he was getting worse and there was no more we could do I agreed to the injection because he had a drip line in already.  I watched that horses heart stop and to this day I will never ever forget it, it was dreadful.

My father had many horses shot at Potters (he was often asked by friends to take them because they couldn't face it) and he said that the skill and sympathy was fantastic and the horses knew nothing about it.  My father has grown up with horses, was a professional jockey and trained for many years, he worships horses and it breaks his heart every time one has to go but he is also a realist and would never forgive himself for either keeping a horse about for too long or allowing a problem horse to continue to be passed from place to place and potential endangering itself or others.

My partner was in hunt service for 23 years.  He has shot many horses, and he hates it every time but he often blows 'gone away' for them either before or after and he knows that they have gone with grace and dignity.

Let us never forget that "Where you have livestock, you have deadstock".


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## joeanne (11 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			next month, i intend to bring home a couple of empty/barren mares..and back them as riding ponies..at least they will be taken out of the breeding cycle and hopefully have a useful life..and avoid the meat trade too!..these get a raw deal at markets ATM as no-one wants broodmares..so if they are under 10, i'll give them a chance..i could get them for less than £40 each
		
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BR saw mares in foal go for peanuts earlier in the year, the older ones certainly are not lucky enough to get a "fluffy" retirement. IF they are lucky, they are given a quick painless end at.....oh yes an abbatoir!


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## thatsmygirl (11 November 2010)

fitzaud2 said:



			I thought i did the "right" thing last year, and had by boy put down by injection, really horrible, never again. Had to have my really old mare pts in may, sent her to knackery yard. Done in 2 seconds. You have to be in the situation to understand. 2 seconds versus 10 mins, thats all i have to say!!!!!! And i thought poor cooper was going to be gone before he knew it!!!!
		
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My mare took no time at all by injection. She lied down and was gone. 10 mins I think will be vet error


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## Pipkin (11 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			I brought home 2 skewbald WPB both registered with the WCPS..both microchipped..for less than £33.00

the chipping/passporting cost more than that....

these 2 were of good stock/good conformation and will, in time, make excellent childs ponies or driving ponies.

others there weren't quite so fortunate..they were of poor quality..and i'm assuming..no, i know, that they'll end up at an Abattoir.

next month, i intend to bring home a couple of empty/barren mares..and back them as riding ponies..at least they will be taken out of the breeding cycle and hopefully have a useful life..and avoid the meat trade too!..these get a raw deal at markets ATM as no-one wants broodmares..so if they are under 10, i'll give them a chance..i could get them for less than £40 each
		
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Oh and there`s me thinking you were some sort of horse hating, evil cow who worked at Potters 

Good on you for helping ones that can be helped


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## thatsmygirl (11 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			I brought home 2 skewbald WPB both registered with the WCPS..both microchipped..for less than £33.00

the chipping/passporting cost more than that....

these 2 were of good stock/good conformation and will, in time, make excellent childs ponies or driving ponies.

others there weren't quite so fortunate..they were of poor quality..and i'm assuming..no, i know, that they'll end up at an Abattoir.

next month, i intend to bring home a couple of empty/barren mares..and back them as riding ponies..at least they will be taken out of the breeding cycle and hopefully have a useful life..and avoid the meat trade too!..these get a raw deal at markets ATM as no-one wants broodmares..so if they are under 10, i'll give them a chance..i could get them for less than £40 each
		
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I think your great for giving some off the poor mites a home. Out off interest how many have you got?


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## nativetyponies (11 November 2010)

thatsmygirl said:



			Out off interest how many have you got?
		
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19...they range from 5 months old to 3 yr olds


I've just sold one this week..he went to Peterborough


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## vixann (11 November 2010)

i went to bed last night thinking this thread was all over!!!
for ppls info I didn't realise the UK only had 2 equine abattoirs (hence the question?) so no I wouldnt drag the pony all that way. 
The pony has now deceased so can ppl stop pm-ing me asking wat exactly he does - and would i consider selling him? - NO (I thought that was pretty obvious without having to ask me!)


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## Jenni_ (11 November 2010)

Wow : what a read!

Firstly, would like to praise the OP for her decision to have a dangerous horse PTS before it can harm anyone else. I used to be one of 'those' people who believed that every horse could be tamed - that is untill i was nearly killed by a horse I had been working with that had managed to stay semi same for a few months and we thought we had succeeded - wrong.

owner eventually decided the horse was too dangerous to keep, and went back to the yard it had came from on request from its old owner - where again, it almost killed someone. Horse i believe, has now been PTS.

The debate over which method is the best is really just a way of showing how different owners cope and perceive the death of an animal close to them - nothing to do with how much the animal means to them. both methods should be painless and the horse should be oblivious. those that have had bad experiences with LI - your vet, quite frankly, shouldnt be practicing then...

End of the day, any method is sufficient as long as the horse doesn't suffer in the process, and ends up dead. regardless wether they are shot, injected - whatever - when they are dead, their bodies are hoisted up the same way.

Both methods wouldnt be legal if they weren't tried, tested, and regulated as to being quick and humane. 

God i sound so heartless but i think my way is just logical.

Me, personally - for a horse that i had had for years and i regarded as a good friend, would be taken into the indoor school, fussed over, and injected. this senario, would of course only be possible if the animal was in a situation euthanasia was not an emergency, but rather in kind to a situation that was never going to get better.

In an emergency, i would have not one hesitation to having a horse shot if it was the solution to releasing it from being in a state of stress and extreme pain

-J


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## honetpot (11 November 2010)

Ayla84 said:



			Oh and there`s me thinking you were some sort of horse hating, evil cow who worked at Potters 

I can not believe someone thought that never mind wrote it, about anyone.
		
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## nativetyponies (11 November 2010)

honetpot said:





Ayla84 said:



			Oh and there`s me thinking you were some sort of horse hating, evil cow who worked at Potters 

I can not believe someone thought that never mind wrote it, about anyone.
		
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Oh don't worry honetpot, i've been called worse!!

and as i've already said, yes, if i was offered a job at Potters, i would most certainly work there.
		
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## thatsmygirl (11 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			19...they range from 5 months old to 3 yr olds


I've just sold one this week..he went to Peterborough
		
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Ha quite a few than. Do you never go to Exeter sales?  That was dire this month.


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## nativetyponies (11 November 2010)

thatsmygirl said:



			Ha quite a few than. Do you never go to Exeter sales?  That was dire this month.
		
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yes i do..i try and keep away from there as the Shonkies who sell there import alot of dodgy animals, health and paperwork wise.


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## Fuzznugget (11 November 2010)

honetpot said:





Ayla84 said:



			Oh and there`s me thinking you were some sort of horse hating, evil cow who worked at Potters 

I can not believe someone thought that never mind wrote it, about anyone.
		
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I think she was being sarcastic, hence the  and  at the end?
		
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## thatsmygirl (11 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			yes i do..i try and keep away from there as the Shonkies who sell there import alot of dodgy animals, health and paperwork wise.
		
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Ha ha oh yes I know the ones you mean and they had plenty there this month. So many poor cob foals and none sold it was so sad. Some who had been in a sales down Cornwall 2/3 weeks ago. What a bloody life.


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## teddyt (11 November 2010)

vixann said:



			even if that few quid was to be spent on other horses? why shouldnt I anyway?
		
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If you are that skint that you need a measly few quid for other horses then you shouldn't have them in the first place. 

Again, i have nothing against PTS but i dislike that you require compensation for the time you have put in to an animal because 'he hasnt given you a good life'


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## martlin (11 November 2010)

teddyt said:



			If you are that skint that you need a measly few quid for other horses then you shouldn't have them in the first place.
		
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hmm, you know what they say - look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves.

Why is it so offensive to people that someone would rather get some cash for a horse's carcass than pay for disposing of it?


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## Pipkin (11 November 2010)

honetpot said:





Ayla84 said:



			Oh and there`s me thinking you were some sort of horse hating, evil cow who worked at Potters 

I can not believe someone thought that never mind wrote it, about anyone.
		
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lol  means sarcasm!!! I wasnt the one who called NP a horse hater...someone else did 

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=413953&page=24    4th post down....if you read the thread properly you`d quite clearly see it wasnt me!  



orsolya80 said:





honetpot said:



			I think she was being sarcastic, hence the  and  at the end?
		
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at least someone can read a post properly! clearly   means I`m being evil , bitchy and serious   oops there goes again!

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## Fuzznugget (11 November 2010)

Ayla84 said:



			at least someone can read a post properly! clearly   means I`m being evil , bitchy and serious   oops there goes again!

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 You mean you're not?! Dang, was I wrong or what!


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## Pipkin (11 November 2010)

orsolya80 said:



 You mean you're not?! Dang, was I wrong or what! 

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I am a complete and utter ****  grrrrr


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## *hic* (11 November 2010)

teddyt said:



			If you are that skint that you need a measly few quid for other horses then you shouldn't have them in the first place. 

Again, i have nothing against PTS but i dislike that you require compensation for the time you have put in to an animal because 'he hasnt given you a good life' 

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You may dislike the idea of receiving money for your dead horse but the cash difference between having it shot by the vet, removed, cremated and returned to you and sending it to be shot at the abattoir is approaching £1000. You may have that sort of money lying around but for many people having to find several hundreds of pounds at a sad time is an unwanted, unnecessary and hurtful stress. Those people should be able to feel that it is perfectly normal and acceptable, and does not need to be justified, to take their horse, even if much loved, somewhere where they will not end up with a possibly unaffordable financial burden on top of their loss. As others have said the end result is a dead horse and dead horses don't care what happens to their body.

ps I deliberately used the term "shot by the vet" because whist I'm aware that a number of people would prefer their horse injected it does make the comparison clearer to quote "shot".


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## MerrySherryRider (11 November 2010)

£1000 ? I paid a 5th of that for vet and disposal. Didn't have the ashes returned but then neither would Potters.
The cost of having a horse put to sleep is offset by the lack of livery, feed and other expenses of keeping a horse. To profit from having it PTS is revolting.


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## rosie fronfelen (11 November 2010)

vixann said:



			i went to bed last night thinking this thread was all over!!!
for ppls info I didn't realise the UK only had 2 equine abattoirs (hence the question?) so no I wouldnt drag the pony all that way. 
The pony has now deceased so can ppl stop pm-ing me asking wat exactly he does - and would i consider selling him? - NO (I thought that was pretty obvious without having to ask me!)
		
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We have an abbatoir near here that slaughters horses, along with everything else,been in business for years.


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## martlin (11 November 2010)

But why? Why is revolting?
So there is nothing wrong with taking a horse to slaughter apart from getting paid for its carcass?
I really struggle to comprehend what is so wrong in receiving money? Is it wrong to receive money from insurance when your horse is PTS? After all, you are profiting from the horse's death...


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## scatty_mare (11 November 2010)

What about insurance pay outs? is that disgusting? or am I missing the point?

I do not think there is anything wrong at all with profiting from having a horse slaughtered. As long as the horse is ending its days in an instant and humane way, then surely who pays for what and where it happens is completely irrelevant?


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## lochpearl (11 November 2010)

horserider said:



			£1000 ? I paid a 5th of that for vet and disposal. Didn't have the ashes returned but then neither would Potters.
The cost of having a horse put to sleep is offset by the lack of livery, feed and other expenses of keeping a horse. To profit from having it PTS is revolting.
		
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I think this is another very narrow minded post. What on earth has it got to do with you and what qualifies you to judge if someone chooses this way. 

I wonder where you had the horse disposed of? It all seems very cheap.

All of mine have been pts by the vet and it has always cost £200+ just for that. I have always had them cremated and that has cost in the region of £650.

I did what I did because that is how I wanted them to go, had the circumstances been different I would rather a qualified dispatcher to do the deed, quickly and humanely. 

No-one here is in any position to judge the poster or anyone else for that matter on how they decide to have a horse destroyed. Once the horse has gone, it feels nothing, it is not the horse so if people wish to donate to science, zoo or allow it to be used for meat then so be it.


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## Gluttonforpunishment (11 November 2010)

scatty_mare said:



			What about insurance pay outs? is that disgusting? or am I missing the point?

I do not think there is anything wrong at all with profiting from having a horse slaughtered. As long as the horse is ending its days in an instant and humane way, then surely who pays for what and where it happens is completely irrelevant?
		
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Excellent point, brilliantly made.


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## MerrySherryRider (11 November 2010)

lochpearl said:



			I think this is another very narrow minded post. What on earth has it got to do with you and what qualifies you to judge if someone chooses this way. 

I wonder where you had the horse disposed of? It all seems very cheap.

All of mine have been pts by the vet and it has always cost £200+ just for that. I have always had them cremated and that has cost in the region of £650.

I did what I did because that is how I wanted them to go, had the circumstances been different I would rather a qualified dispatcher to do the deed, quickly and humanely. 

No-one here is in any position to judge the poster or anyone else for that matter on how they decide to have a horse destroyed. Once the horse has gone, it feels nothing, it is not the horse so if people wish to donate to science, zoo or allow it to be used for meat then so be it.
		
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Oh dear, you are offended because you have a different view. Do you also have issue with those who dare to express an opinion if it agrees with yours ?Not narrow minded, just a different morality. And not judging - just giving an opinion slaughter of horses for profit. 
Funny how forums are only supposed to allow debate when those who shout  loudest permit it.
Yes, thank you, I did have an excellent service from my vet and disposal man who both arrived within an hour of my call. Dignified, humane and my mare had a stressfree end to her life. And for a fraction of what you have been paying.


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## lochpearl (11 November 2010)

horserider said:



			Oh dear, you are offended because you have a different view. Do you also have issue with those who dare to express an opinion if it agrees with yours ?Not narrow minded, just a different morality. And not judging - just giving an opinion slaughter of horses for profit. 
Funny how forums are only supposed to allow debate when those who shout  loudest permit it.
Yes, thank you, I did have an excellent service from my vet and disposal man who both arrived within an hour of my call. Dignified, humane and my mare had a stressfree end to her life. And for a fraction of what you have been paying.
		
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I'm certainly not offended by you m'dear! And yes you were judging and actually quite nasty with it.

Your mare must have been loved so well for being 'disposed of'


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## MerrySherryRider (11 November 2010)

martlin said:



			Is it wrong to receive money from insurance when your horse is PTS? After all, you are profiting from the horse's death...
		
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How does that equate ? Insurance is paid month after month. Would you not accept insurance if you had an accident ? Would you not accept insurance if your husband died to pay off your mortage ? I did, and it certainly wasn't to profit from his death.


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## scatty_mare (11 November 2010)

Gluttonforpunishment said:



			Excellent point, brilliantly made.
		
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I thank you


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## martlin (11 November 2010)

horserider said:



			How does that equate ? Insurance is paid month after month. Would you not accept insurance if you had an accident ? Would you not accept insurance if your husband died to pay off your mortage ? I did, and it certainly wasn't to profit from his death.
		
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Well, you feed the horse month after month, you pay the livery, farrier, vet etc... Why wouldn't you accept money for its carcass to avoid getting in debt?

PS I'm not married, so no, I wouldn't get an insurance money to pay off my mortgage.


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## scatty_mare (11 November 2010)

horserider said:



			How does that equate ? Insurance is paid month after month. Would you not accept insurance if you had an accident ? Would you not accept insurance if your husband died to pay off your mortage ? I did, and it certainly wasn't to profit from his death.
		
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Sorry to hear about your husband. In that terrible situation of course you are going to accept the insurance money. That's why you have insurance - to protect yourself in that event.

Having a horse put down is never going to be pleasant. There is obviously going to be a moral grey area on what might be seen as benefiting from an animal's death. 
However just because someone chooses to accept money when their horse dies doesn't mean they didn't care about the horse. It just means that they can square that with themselves. 
It certainly doesn't make them revolting.


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## Happy Horse (11 November 2010)

horserider said:



			£1000 ? I paid a 5th of that for vet and disposal. Didn't have the ashes returned but then neither would Potters.
The cost of having a horse put to sleep is offset by the lack of livery, feed and other expenses of keeping a horse. To profit from having it PTS is revolting.
		
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In your opinion......


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## MerrySherryRider (11 November 2010)

scatty_mare said:



			However just because someone chooses to accept money when their horse dies doesn't mean they didn't care about the horse. It just means that they can square that with themselves. 
It certainly doesn't make them revolting.
		
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Thank you, SM, its ok, it's few years since he passed away, so not so awful now.
Two things though, I do not question whether the OP cared about the horse, I have no indication that she did not.
I do not believe she is revolting, the act is revolting. Quite different.


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## martlin (11 November 2010)

But please tell me - why? What's so revolting?


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## AndySpooner (11 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			oh is that all?

dont tell the NH/Parelli weirdo's..or they'll be pm'ing you claiming to be able to cure it!!
		
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Sounds like a challenge, lol.


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## scatty_mare (11 November 2010)

horserider said:



			Thank you, SM, its ok, it's few years since he passed away, so not so awful now.
Two things though, I do not question whether the OP cared about the horse, I have no indication that she did not.
I do not believe she is revolting, the act is revolting. Quite different.
		
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I misunderstood that.
I don't think anyone will ever change your mind, and really why should they - everyone's entitled to their opinion.
The thing to remember is that it is the act you are condemning, then accepting that it is quite ok for a lot of people, and not judging them for it. I think that is hard when you feel strongly about something.
I'm not really meaning for that to sound as patronising as it might come across.


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## flump (11 November 2010)

Have not red all of the posts but thought I'd add my piece.

First of all I love my horses and when Its their time to go they will be done by my local hunt, The way all my previous horses/ponies have gone. I have never held a horse or pony to be PTS. My dad has always done it but when we lost my pony this year he went stuffing his face with grass and the huntsman was lovely,polite and understood that we were all upset.

My dad is a farmer so have always been under the understanding that abbatoirs are run proffesionally they are clean and most importantly an animal will not suffer. 
I have no issue with Potters as I believe they do a job and they do it well a proffesianly.
I also think that NP and other posters have only siad it how it is and If you dont like it dont read it!!!

OP-hope you get the pony sorted, and why shouldnt you get some money back for a pony that has only been a pain in the a***!!


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## MerrySherryRider (11 November 2010)

scatty_mare said:



			I misunderstood that.
I don't think anyone will ever change your mind, and really why should they - everyone's entitled to their opinion.
The thing to remember is that it is the act you are condemning, then accepting that it is quite ok for a lot of people, and not judging them for it. I think that is hard when you feel strongly about something.
I'm not really meaning for that to sound as patronising as it might come across.
		
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Not at all, I worked with a section of society whose actions were sometimes appalling, separating the act and the person is essential. 



martlin said:



			But please tell me - why? What's so revolting?
		
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If you have difficulty in empathising with a view you are so strongly opposed to, the art of debate is lost.


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## martlin (11 November 2010)

horserider said:



			If you have difficulty in empathising with a view you are so strongly opposed to, the art of debate is lost.
		
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Charming. 
Yes, you are right, the art of debate is lost, you have no intention of debating...


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## *hic* (11 November 2010)

horserider said:



			If you have difficulty in empathising with a view you are so strongly opposed to, the art of debate is lost.
		
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martlin said:



			Charming. 
Yes, you are right, the art of debate is lost, you have no intention of debating...
		
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Precisely.

Incidentally, on being revolted by profiting from death - actually by accepting insurance payment for any death, you are not only profiting but profiting from gambling as well. You gamble that you will pay less in premiums than the lump sum payout. The Insurance company lays off that gamble elsewhere - gambling with your money.

Undertakers, for human or animal, profit all the time from death. Coffin makers also, stone masons, grave diggers, church personnel and loads more. I used to supplement my pocket money as a child by bell ringing and singing in the church choir - christenings, marriages, confirmations, deaths - all nice little earners.


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## Maesfen (11 November 2010)

horserider said:



			To profit from having it PTS is revolting.
		
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Do you not insure your horse then or would you refuse the payout if your horse dies when you are only getting back what you have paid in?  Would that be revolting?


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## nativetyponies (11 November 2010)

The lunatics have truely taken over the Asylum


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## martlin (11 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			The lunatics have truely taken over the Asylum  

Click to expand...

Haven't they just...


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## Ted's mum (11 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			The lunatics have truely taken over the Asylum  

Click to expand...

 you never fail to make me smile NP!!


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## 3DE (11 November 2010)

I think the emotiveness of this thread isn't that a horse is shot - it is that it is sold for meat.

I think it is morally more acceptable to eat a horse who has had a 'nice' life, than factory farmed animals. I for one will only eat my own chickens or venison. My chickens I despatch myself so I know their end is quick and painfree. Venison I will eat as the animal has lived a natural life and dies in the field as it grazes - incredibly free from stress . I would not eat farmed lamb or beef knowing how they are cared for during birthing and winter (even in the best farms I don't agree with). I have recently bought a couple of piglets - one will be Christmas dinner and the other will be bred from next year. I will be going with Matilda to the abbertoir as I owe it to her to be there at the end as I will be the only thing familiar to her.


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## lannerch (11 November 2010)

hch4971 said:



			LOL, I can't believe someone even bothered looking up the distance and tried to work out the travelling time just so they could 'have a pop' at OP
		
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I certainly did not look up the distance I did not need to its obvious if you have a rough knowlege of the geography of this country 

And the poster having a pop at the op certainly could not have done as she wouldn't have got the travelliing time from west yorkshire to somerset as only 4 hours! However I do agree I am amazed at the lengths people will go because they have  difference of oppnion


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## lannerch (11 November 2010)

Maesfen said:



			If you know your geography there'd be no working it out involved; simples.
		
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exactly


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## jaypeebee (11 November 2010)

lannerch said:



			I certainly did not look up the distance I did not need to its obvious if you have a rough knowlege of the geography of this country 

And the poster having a pop at the op certainly could not have done as she wouldn't have got the travelliing time from west yorkshire to somerset as only 4 hours! However I do agree I am amazed at the lengths people will go because they have  difference of oppnion
		
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It was me that gave the rough time from West Yorkshire to Somerset and I just happen to be on H&H right now so will reply to you.  Just because you are being childish I followed your lead and childishly typed in Leeds Yorkshire to Taunton Somerset on mapquest.  Suprisingly it has shown this

_Your trip is 3 hours 56 minutes  /  248.26 miles
_

So the time frame I gave of about 4 hours from West Yorkshire to Potters in Somerset is accurate.  I didnt have to mapquest because I travel close to that route regularly and I know how long it takes me.


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## lannerch (11 November 2010)

jaypeebee said:



			It was me that gave the rough time from West Yorkshire to Somerset and I just happen to be on H&H right now so will reply to you.  Just because you are being childish I followed your lead and childishly typed in Leeds Yorkshire to Taunton Somerset on mapquest.  Suprisingly it has shown this

_Your trip is 3 hours 56 minutes  /  248.26 miles
_

So the time frame I gave of about 4 hours from West Yorkshire to Potters in Somerset is accurate.  I didnt have to mapquest because I travel close to that route regularly and I know how long it takes me.
		
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In a horsebox?!!!  You must drive it quite some

And how rude you are!


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## Angela_Jackson (11 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			i'll use this phrase again..

TB/WB are used for human consumption..better quality of meat

then the rest is "pony pies" ( that phrase again LOL)..Zoo's Longleat/woburn take these
		
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Interesting post.

But from this quote above I have decided. My horse is an Anglo Arab x Cob and I have spent the last 6 years promising him that the imaginary lions and tigers he sees in the hedges and up the trees are not going to eat him. So I dont think I could bring myself to break that promise.........even if he was already dead. 

Sorry, not very useful to you, but I thought quite amusing.


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## sav123 (11 November 2010)

Originally Posted by horserider  
To profit from having it PTS is revolting. 



Indalo said:



			why shouldnt you get some money back for a pony that has only been a pain in the a***!!
		
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I've been following this thread every day, as it has, on the whole, been balanced and informative, and it seems that really it boils down to the above argument.  (I've taken the quotes above as examples purely because they were near the end and easy to find, not to single out those particular people)

OP invested time into the pony to try and turn him around and give a chance, and therefore invested money to keep him for that time.

If she had managed to turn the pony around, and then sell it to a nice home, no-one would begrudge her making a bit for herself to cover her costs.  But because the outcome was the complete opposite, does that mean she's not entitled to anything?  Even though that was the correct and responsible decision to make for this particular pony?  The pony would have cost OP exactly the same amount in time and money in either scenario up until the point of departure from her yard.

Well done to OP for facing up to the decision and following it through.


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## jaypeebee (11 November 2010)

lannerch said:



			exactly 

Click to expand...

Yes Maesfen is right about those of us who know our geography and us who know our routes around this tiny country and how long it takes us to get to where we need to get to.  Those who know this do not need to use a travel site to find out.


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## jaypeebee (11 November 2010)

lannerch said:



			In a horsebox? You must drive it quite some

And how rude you are!
		
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Au contraire ma cherie.


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## lannerch (11 November 2010)

jaypeebee said:



			Au contraire ma cherie.
		
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Where have I been rude


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## Bab (11 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			There is a place for all God's creatures..right next to the potatoes and the gravy.
		
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Does that include you, NP, and your kin?


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## lannerch (11 November 2010)

Bab said:



			Does that include you, NP, and your kin?
		
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wouldn't advise it expect it, she would be a bit tough!


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## 3DE (11 November 2010)

Bab said:



			Does that include you, NP, and your kin?
		
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Nope, generally humans do not eat other meat eaters - herbivores is the meat of choice. Mainly as toxins build up the higher up the food chain you go (you never want to eat polar bear liver...). There's a tribe in New Guinea that are cannibals - unfortunately they suffer from a disease called Kuru (similar to CJd). It's only really beneficial to eat meat that is vegetarian.

Plus God doesn't call us creatures - there is a distinct division (don't get the religious started )


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## WoopsiiD (11 November 2010)

Good job NP is 'tough'.

Too many do gooder tree huggers around. I'll bet the farm that most of the problem horses that need putting down have been ruined by fluffybunni-ness.


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## Bab (11 November 2010)

Inky_and_Sunny said:



			Nope, generally humans do not eat other meat eaters - herbivores is the meat of choice. Mainly as toxins build up the higher up the food chain you go (you never want to eat polar bear liver...). There's a tribe in New Guinea that are cannibals - unfortunately they suffer from a disease called Kuru (similar to CJd). It's only really beneficial to eat meat that is vegetarian.

Plus God doesn't call us creatures - there is a distinct division (don't get the religious started )
		
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Would you be okay with eating a human who was raised vegetarian?


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## WoopsiiD (11 November 2010)

Bab said:



			Would you be okay with eating a human who was raised vegetarian?
		
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Where they raised free range?
Organic?
Have they been vaccinated?
Was the slaughter quick?


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## Bab (11 November 2010)

WoopsiiD said:



			Where they raised free range?
Organic?
Have they been vaccinated?
Was the slaughter quick?



Click to expand...


Let's presume the above, less the wink.

Would you?


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## WoopsiiD (11 November 2010)

TBH I think its irrelevant as thats cannabalism.


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## teddyt (12 November 2010)

jemima_too said:



			You may dislike the idea of receiving money for your dead horse but the cash difference between having it shot by the vet, removed, cremated and returned to you and sending it to be shot at the abattoir is approaching £1000. You may have that sort of money lying around but for many people having to find several hundreds of pounds at a sad time is an unwanted, unnecessary and hurtful stress. Those people should be able to feel that it is perfectly normal and acceptable, and does not need to be justified, to take their horse, even if much loved, somewhere where they will not end up with a possibly unaffordable financial burden on top of their loss. As others have said the end result is a dead horse and dead horses don't care what happens to their body.

ps I deliberately used the term "shot by the vet" because whist I'm aware that a number of people would prefer their horse injected it does make the comparison clearer to quote "shot".
		
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My objection is to the reason behind wanting money for the horse. The OP wanted money because she felt the horse owed her because of the time she had put into it and in her words hadnt given her a good life back. Like a horse can understand that reasoning! 

And, if you really need just a few pounds that badly to care for other horses then i don't think you should have horses. You cant call a vet out for less than £60 with treatment costing extra on top of this. £60 is just one set of shoes. If youre having to scrape together that sort of money then i think the horses welfare will suffer. Ok, so an extra 2 weeks before being shod isnt the biggest crime in the world but its still potentially uncomfortable for the horse. Humans wouldnt put up with an uncomfortable shoe for 2 hours!

If you farm horses or its a business and you sell to the abbatoir then i think thats slightly different. Or as you point out, there is a big difference between abbatoir and vet.

Im not against taking a horse to an abbatoir but i think the attitude of requiring compensation because you think it hasnt been nice to you is a disgrace  Thats what i object to.


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## *hic* (12 November 2010)

I'm on the side of the Andean plane crash survivors on this!


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## wispagold (12 November 2010)

Inky_and_Sunny said:



			Nope, generally humans do not eat other meat eaters - herbivores is the meat of choice. Mainly as toxins build up the higher up the food chain you go (you never want to eat polar bear liver...). There's a tribe in New Guinea that are cannibals - unfortunately they suffer from a disease called Kuru (similar to CJd). It's only really beneficial to eat meat that is vegetarian.

Plus God doesn't call us creatures - there is a distinct division (don't get the religious started )
		
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What about Pork? Pigs are omnivores...


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## *hic* (12 November 2010)

teddyt said:



			My objection is to the reason behind wanting money for the horse. The OP wanted money because she felt the horse owed her because of the time she had put into it and in her words hadnt given her a good life back. Like a horse can understand that reasoning! One suspects that statement from the OP was a throwaway phrase

And, if you really need just a few pounds that badly to care for other horses then i don't think you should have horses. You cant call a vet out for less than £60 with treatment costing extra on top of this. £60 is just one set of shoes. If youre having to scrape together that sort of money then i think the horses welfare will suffer. Ok, so an extra 2 weeks before being shod isnt the biggest crime in the world but its still potentially uncomfortable for the horse. Humans wouldnt put up with an uncomfortable shoe for 2 hours! I agree with you that owning horses on a shoestring is a risky thing to do, it's partly why I managed without horses for so long. However the point I was making was rustling up the spare grand (and to confirm my figures - decent sized horse at Potters is going to get you, say, £250, cost of vet + removal, cremation and return has been quoted on here at between £700 and £800. Difference between +£250 and -£750 = £1000) I don't think that many people on here could easily rustle up the odd grand but I think I'll start a poll to find out.

If you farm horses or its a business and you sell to the abbatoir then i think thats slightly different. Or as you point out, there is a big difference between abbatoir and vet.

Im not against taking a horse to an abbatoir but i think the attitude of requiring compensation because you think it hasnt been nice to you is a disgrace  Thats what i object to.
		
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As I said, I don't think that that's a true reflection of the OP's feelings, rather a phrase used defensively.


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## *hic* (12 November 2010)

wispagold said:



			What about Pork? Pigs are omnivores...
		
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But we who keep pigs make sure to keep them on a strict vegetarian diet. Provided the damned chickens keep out of their way. And the mice.


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## nativetyponies (12 November 2010)

Bab said:



			Does that include you, NP, and your kin?
		
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No Way!! 

you've no idea the crap my relatives eat and drink on a regular basis!!

Anyhow, this is all null and void now, as the OP has stated said pony is dead


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## Amymay (12 November 2010)

To profit from having it PTS is revolting.
		
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I'm about £2k up so far from having my horse PTS.  And I paid to have him shot by the hunt.

How is that revolting?


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## Flame_ (12 November 2010)

teddyt said:



			My objection is to the reason behind wanting money for the horse. The OP wanted money because she felt the horse owed her because of the time she had put into it and in her words hadnt given her a good life back. Like a horse can understand that reasoning! 

Im not against taking a horse to an abbatoir but i think the attitude of requiring compensation because you think it hasnt been nice to you is a disgrace  Thats what i object to.
		
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Like a horse can understand your ethics.    Its dead either way, for a profit or at the owners cost. Its not going to know about or care about the monetary difference.


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## Fuzznugget (12 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			The lunatics have truely taken over the Asylum  

Click to expand...

thought they did that a long time ago!


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## Jenni_ (12 November 2010)

Inky_and_Sunny said:



			Nope, generally humans do not eat other meat eaters - herbivores is the meat of choice. Mainly as toxins build up the higher up the food chain you go (you never want to eat polar bear liver...). There's a tribe in New Guinea that are cannibals - unfortunately they suffer from a disease called Kuru (similar to CJd). It's only really beneficial to eat meat that is vegetarian.

Plus God doesn't call us creatures - there is a distinct division (don't get the religious started )
		
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Oooh!!


a bit of topic - but you cleared up why in The Book of Eli they asked eachother to show their hands, because being a cannibal gives you the shakes.

tah!


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## penhwnllys_stardust (12 November 2010)

Flame_ said:



			Like a horse can understand your ethics.    Its dead either way, for a profit or at the owners cost. Its not going to know about or care about the monetary difference. 

Click to expand...

This is very true, horses do not think the same way we do, as long as the end is as peaceful as possible it is up to the owners how they end it.


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## pepperandoran (12 November 2010)

Iv followed this thread right through and TBH its a bit OTT now!

The original question the OP asked was answered about 70 pages back!!!  Yes people have their opinions, they should be allowed to have these opinions without being fired down by people who have the opposite opinion.

In this country, as I see it, there is a place for abattoirs who deal with horses.  Look at the sales where all these ponies are unwanted and no one even wants them for free!!! Surely a better end at the hands of a qualified abattoir worker than left for abandonment and starvation?

I have a small amount of livestock - some sheep and a few cattle.  One of my cows is most definately a pet, I reared her from 3 days old, recently she had a calf by caesarian section.  Now the problem is I may never get her back in calf again.  If this happens then, she will be visiting an abattoir.  This is a commercial decision, and yes I am as attached to the cow as I am my horse, but this is how it will be.  Does this make me a bad person??

I guess the point I am trying to make is that many people who have horses, have them on a commercial basis, rather than just pets etc.  And a commercial decision (i.e to make money from the meat!) is a necessity.  As long as the animal is dispatched quickly and humanely, and from what Iv seen in abattoirs, this is the case, then what is the issue that the owner wishes to gain some £ rather than spend out a fortune on disposal etc?  The welfare of the animal is paramount.

Good on the OP for making a sensible decision regarding a potentially dangerous animal.


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## Amymay (12 November 2010)

pepperandoran said:



			In this country, as I see it, there is a place for abattoirs who deal with horses.  Look at the sales where all these ponies are unwanted and no one even wants them for free!!! Surely a better end at the hands of a qualified abattoir worker than left for abandonment and starvation?
		
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According to some on this thread, Pepperanddoran, no there is no place for abattoirs.

However, they seem unable to put forward and altnerative - which I find interesting and alarming.


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## pepperandoran (12 November 2010)

amymay said:



			According to some on this thread, Pepperanddoran, no there is no place for abattoirs.

However, they seem unable to put forward and altnerative - which I find interesting and alarming.
		
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Hm. Worrying.


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## Natch (12 November 2010)

horserider said:



			£1000 ? I paid a 5th of that for vet and disposal. Didn't have the ashes returned but then neither would Potters.
The cost of having a horse put to sleep is offset by the lack of livery, feed and other expenses of keeping a horse. To profit from having it PTS is revolting.
		
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See, I agree with this (apart from the revolting comment). I don't think the "i can't afford not to" comment makes any sense because you will be subsequently saving many more times the carcas value on what you would have otherwise spent keeping the horse.

As for what the price differences between the vet or knackerman or slaughterhouse or hunt are, I hope this thread will have served to get everybody to plan ahead for their horse's death, and speak to these people to ascertain the cost and quite frankly have a piece of paper somewhere easy to remember where it is that has all the contact numbers etc on, so that when you're distraught and can't think straight you will have all the information to hand. And you won't be worrying about the differences in prices because you will have already planned and found everything out.




Indalo said:



			OP-hope you get the pony sorted, and why shouldnt you get some money back for a pony that has only been a pain in the a***!!
		
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Several posters have made comments like this - some along the lines of "the pony deserves it after the hassle it's caused." I don't agree with this attitude - surely as an animal lover no matter what the animal has done, it deserves a humane end, and the only thing that matters is to give it a good quality of death, whichever method you choose. Therefore I can't see why someone who owned two ponies, one a little git the other a little saint, would have any qualms about sending them both the same way (whatever way they choose).



teddyt said:



			Im not against taking a horse to an abbatoir but i think the attitude of requiring compensation because you think it hasnt been nice to you is a disgrace  Thats what i object to.
		
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Exactly my sentiments.

The people whom I object to most are those who think nothing of travelling a horse with a broken leg to an abbatoir when there are several options of people who will come out to destroy them at home. I have known people who have done this with their "much loved" family pet, and then boasted about what luxury item they have bought with the meat money _because their horse owed them, after all the money they have spent on things for it_


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## Amymay (12 November 2010)

The people whom I object to most are those who think nothing of travelling a horse with a broken leg to an abbatoir when there are several options of people who will come out to destroy them at home
		
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And I think we would all agree with you on this.


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## Dirtymare (12 November 2010)

I cant believe people are objecting to abbatoirs.
As responsible horse/pet owners it is your responsiblity to ensure that the animal is euthanased as humanely as possible, whether this be at home or at an abbatoir. 
What is the difference between the OP sending the pony to the abbatoir and recieving money for the carcass and a farmer sending his livestock to the abbatoir for money for the carcass'?? 
I wonder how many of the posters objecting to abbatoirs are meat eaters!


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## WoopsiiD (12 November 2010)

Dirtymare said:



			I wonder how many of the posters objecting to abbatoirs are meat eaters!
		
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Yup, or how many of the 'I'd never send an animal, I don't agree with any animal being slaughtered' are quick to bad mouth meat eaters....but more than happy to wear leather shoes/boots...I bet they have nice leather saddles and bridles.

Can't justify animals being slaughtered for food but fashion......


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## Amymay (12 November 2010)

but more than happy to wear leather shoes/boots
		
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Which you can bet are not made from British leather.


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## WoopsiiD (12 November 2010)

amymay said:



			Which you can bet are not made from British leather.
		
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Oh god yes, but that happens in a far away country called Europe! 
At least with British you know that things are done in a humane manner.


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## Amymay (12 November 2010)

WoopsiiD said:



			Oh god yes, but that happens in a far away country called Europe! 
At least with British you know that things are done in a humane manner.
		
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Europe??

Try China, India.........


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## MerrySherryRider (12 November 2010)

Dirtymare said:



			I cant believe people are objecting to abbatoirs.
As responsible horse/pet owners it is your responsiblity to ensure that the animal is euthanased as humanely as possible, whether this be at home or at an abbatoir. 
What is the difference between the OP sending the pony to the abbatoir and recieving money for the carcass and a farmer sending his livestock to the abbatoir for money for the carcass'?? 
I wonder how many of the posters objecting to abbatoirs are meat eaters!
		
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Who is objecting to abbatoirs ? Must have missed those posts.


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## Amymay (12 November 2010)

horserider said:



			Who is objecting to abbatoirs ? Must have missed those posts.
		
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Over2You, Tictac, to name but two.


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## Over2You (12 November 2010)

WoopsiiD said:



			Yup, or how many of the 'I'd never send an animal, I don't agree with any animal being slaughtered' are quick to bad mouth meat eaters....but more than happy to wear leather shoes/boots...I bet they have nice leather saddles and bridles.

Can't justify animals being slaughtered for food but fashion......
		
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Not me!! 100% synthetic all the way!! As a veggie, I am in no way naive enough to think that buying leather goods doesn't support the meat industry. Besides, the very thought of wearing animal skin disgusts me.

http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/hot/dietofdisaster/index.php

_"Isn't man an amazing animal? He kills wildlife - birds, kangaroos, deer, all kinds of cats, coyotes, beavers, groundhogs, mice, foxes and dingoes - by the million in order to protect his domestic animals and their feed. Then he kills domestic animals by the billion and eats them. This in turn kills man by the millions, because eating all those animals leads to degenerative - and fatal - health conditions like heart disease, kidney disease, and cancer. So then man tortures and kills millions more animals to look for cures for these diseases. Elsewhere, millions of other human beings are being killed by hunger and malnutrition because food they could eat is being used to fatten domestic animals. Meanwhile, some people are dying of sad laughter at the absurdity of man, who kills so easily and so violently, and once a year, sends out cards praying for Peace on Earth." - David Coats_


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## lexiedhb (12 November 2010)

Do you drink milk/eat dairy Over2you?????


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## Natch (12 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			Then he kills domestic animals by the billion and eats them. This in turn kills man by the millions, because eating all those animals leads to degenerative - and fatal - health conditions like heart disease, kidney disease, and cancer.
		
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This is quite some statement to make. Any one got any idea of any proof to support this statement?




			Not me!! 100% synthetic all the way!! As a veggie, I am in no way naive enough to think that buying leather goods doesn't support the meat industry. Besides, the very thought of wearing animal skin disgusts me.
		
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Leather good supports the leather industry, which is more often than not, not the same as the meat industry  I know we digress, but I'm curious, and hope I don't come across as aggressive when I ask;
.
1) There are to my knowledge only a few manufacturers of synthetic saddles. Given that any given brand of saddle comes in a range of widths, but not longitudal back profile shapes, isn't there a possibility that none of these will fit your horse? I know they wouldn't fit mine, I have tried to buy one before. 

2) Are synthetic bridles designed with weak points to break as leather would, if needs be?

3) What is your opinion on animals eating other animals? if you have or had a pet dog or cat, would you feet them meat and why?


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## jrp204 (12 November 2010)

Why is the receiving of money for your horse objectionable? The abbatoir is a business and you can be sure that if you get £100 for the horse it will be sold on for £125. I suppose if you feel strongly about not being paid that is your choice but it will not effect the chain of events that will happen to the carcass after death.


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## Pipkin (12 November 2010)

Naturally said:



			3) What is your opinion on animals eating other animals? if you have or had a pet dog or cat, would you feet them meat and why?
		
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Damn you lol this was going to be my question!

What about wild animals that eat others to survive? I suppose your going to tell me its natural?


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## Ted's mum (12 November 2010)

Omg this thread is still going on??????


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## adamntitch (12 November 2010)

av been to potters and have seen horses put to sleep by bullet and lj 

to the people that said there horses stuggled and the like with lj you must have crap vets everyone av seen and thats a fair few they have the jag fall over and are gone same as bullet altho bullet is quicker bang and hit the floor 

potters are not bad the horses dont have a clue they walk in bang and there gone and you can stay with your animal till its gone as well

to op has the pont now been put down just wondering as you said it kicked out with front legs and you could not get near just wondered how you would manage to get it in a box to take to be put down with it going mad


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## moandben (12 November 2010)

adamntitch said:



			av been to potters and have seen horses put to sleep by bullet and lj 

to the people that said there horses stuggled and the like with lj you must have crap vets everyone av seen and thats a fair few they have the jag fall over and are gone same as bullet altho bullet is quicker bang and hit the floor 

potters are not bad the horses dont have a clue they walk in bang and there gone and you can stay with your animal till its gone as well

to op has the pont now been put down just wondering as you said it kicked out with front legs and you could not get near just wondered how you would manage to get it in a box to take to be put down with it going mad
		
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I think I read further back 10 or 20 pages that the pony was now dead.


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## adamntitch (12 November 2010)

moandben said:



			I think I read further back 10 or 20 pages that the pony was now dead.
		
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ok thanks


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## 3DE (12 November 2010)

Bab said:



			Would you be okay with eating a human who was raised vegetarian?
		
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I thought I'd covered that in my original post where I talked about Kuru...



wispagold said:



			What about Pork? Pigs are omnivores...
		
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Wild pigs are omnivores, meat pigs are not allowed to be fed any animal product (though mine eats grubs etc when foraging)


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## vixann (12 November 2010)

Over2You said:



			Not me!! 100% synthetic all the way!! As a veggie, I am in no way naive enough to think that buying leather goods doesn't support the meat industry. Besides, the very thought of wearing animal skin disgusts me.

http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/hot/dietofdisaster/index.php

_"Isn't man an amazing animal? He kills wildlife - birds, kangaroos, deer, all kinds of cats, coyotes, beavers, groundhogs, mice, foxes and dingoes - by the million in order to protect his domestic animals and their feed. Then he kills domestic animals by the billion and eats them. This in turn kills man by the millions, because eating all those animals leads to degenerative - and fatal - health conditions like heart disease, kidney disease, and cancer. So then man tortures and kills millions more animals to look for cures for these diseases. Elsewhere, millions of other human beings are being killed by hunger and malnutrition because food they could eat is being used to fatten domestic animals. Meanwhile, some people are dying of sad laughter at the absurdity of man, who kills so easily and so violently, and once a year, sends out cards praying for Peace on Earth." - David Coats_

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Do you take medication or give your animals medication that has been tested on animals?


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## MizzPurpleKitten (12 November 2010)

Since this thread is still (for some reason!) going on, I figured I might as well air my curiosity, Vixaan....I know you've said the pony is now deceased however I'm curios as to which method you used? Did you take it to potters/turners/somewhere similar?

I don't mean to be morbid but I am interested to know which method you chose in the end and whether this thread affected your decision?


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## vixann (12 November 2010)

MizzPurpleKitten said:



			Since this thread is still (for some reason!) going on, I figured I might as well air my curiosity, Vixaan....I know you've said the pony is now deceased however I'm curios as to which method you used? Did you take it to potters/turners/somewhere similar?

I don't mean to be morbid but I am interested to know which method you chose in the end and whether this thread affected your decision?
		
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This thread did affect my decision as I did not realise we only had 2 places in UK (although some ppl seem to think this is common knowledge!) so I obviously didnt drag him all the way down there.


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## MizzPurpleKitten (12 November 2010)

I too didn't realise there were only 2 places in the UK to take horses (having said that it's not something I've ever looked into really). 

Thankyou for posting this topic.....I know it hasn't been the 'nicest' of threads but it's certainly been informative (IMO anyway). I personally have 2 veterans (granted on the younger side of veteran but still) and, prior to this thread, I hadn't given much thought to 'what happens when the time comes' (perhaps this is irresponsible). I know 100% I couldn't send them to Potters/Turners (not only because of the distance) but I do not see a problem with others choosing to do just that.


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## beeswax (13 November 2010)

i think it is wonderful that people can have such a fantastic discussion about a very important subject.  Just to add my little bit, i asked our vet tother day about this thing with sedative before heart stopping drug that is going on and he said the sedative is not needed and that would be why the animals are not dying as quickly as they should because they are not giving enough of the heart stopping drug because the horse is sedated derr, and it is just another way for the vet to bill you a bit more for his/her service so make sure your vet doesnt give the sedative to ensure the death is quick and painless.  OP dont be angry be glad that there are still people out there including yourself who love and care about these beautiful animals, sadly there are a lot of people out there who dont give a s....t about them.  Happy days


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## Sandstone1 (13 November 2010)

Cant agree with that as my horse was not given a sedative and still struggled for a while which was very distressing. My vet messed up by notgiving enough of the drug.


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## 3DE (16 November 2010)

I thought we were trying to get this thread in the all time top 5...


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## applecart14 (16 November 2010)

itsmylife said:



			Cant agree with that as my horse was not given a sedative and still struggled for a while which was very distressing. My vet messed up by notgiving enough of the drug.
		
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I am sorry to hear that.  My horse was shot twice after the vet cocked up the first time.  Makes it even more distressing when it goes wrong.


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## Haha (16 November 2010)

Naturally said:



			Would just like to add to that the fact that there are people who are anti-abbatoir for their own neds but who are in the real world and acknowledge it has its place 

The situation in America interests me in a horrifying way. Can anyone tell me if it is the same as France, where there is practically no veterinatry/other method of humane destruction?
		
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Now Now you know the answer to that question.


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## Haha (16 November 2010)

http://www.farmersguardian.com/home/.../33811.article 

This is awful.  But I suppose all those that back each other time and again when anything is bought up will say this was not cruel???  NP? Amymay?  and the rest?

I am not a bunny hugger but neither am I that niave to think all in the garden is excellent with some slaughter houses.  What some of you need to also realise is that EVERYONE has their own opinion.


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## Tormenta (16 November 2010)

What do vegetarians/vegans who do not want to support the meat industry feed their dogs and cats though? I asked this of a vegan once who was having a royal go at me on another forum for eating meat and he stated it was acceptable because his dog was a carnivore by nature and dogs were domesticated by humans (no way of fending for themselves in society) so in principle it was acceptable. My point that he chose to have a meat eating carnivore was not accepted


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## Haha (16 November 2010)

vixann said:



			This thread did affect my decision as I did not realise we only had 2 places in UK (although some ppl seem to think this is common knowledge!) so I obviously didnt drag him all the way down there.
		
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You need to talk to yorksG then as she's in Yorkshire and is sorted there if you read her reply on your thread


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## nativetyponies (16 November 2010)

Haha said:



http://www.farmersguardian.com/home/.../33811.article 

This is awful.  But I suppose all those that back each other time and again when anything is bought up will say this was not cruel???  NP? Amymay?  and the rest?

I am not a bunny hugger but neither am I that niave to think all in the garden is excellent with some slaughter houses.  What some of you need to also realise is that EVERYONE has their own opinion.
		
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What has pig slaughter got to do with Stillmans/Potters on a Wednesday kill day for horses/ponies?

I stand by what i've said/witnessed at Stillmans 100%


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## Haha (16 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			What has pig slaughter got to do with Stillmans/Potters on a Wednesday kill day for horses/ponies?

I stand by what i've said/witnessed at Stillmans 100%
		
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The point being what you witnessed is not always what happens in the way they are treated.  Meaning there is always room for doubt so people need to make their own minds up instead of others always saying well I've been there seen it all.  I'm not saying your wrong just you never think that what you've seen or what you think is the be all and end all


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## nativetyponies (16 November 2010)

Haha said:



			The point being what you witnessed is not always what happens in the way they are treated.  Meaning there is always room for doubt so people need to make their own minds up instead of others always saying well I've been there seen it all.  I'm not saying your wrong just you never think that what you've seen or what you think is the be all and end all

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Then some people need to grow a pair and go see for themselves, don't you think?


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## Haha (16 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			Then some people need to grow a pair and go see for themselves, don't you think?
		
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No not really.  Why so aggressive??


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## nativetyponies (16 November 2010)

Haha said:



			No not really.  Why so aggressive??
		
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oh good grief....are you really so delicate?...where am i being "aggressive"?..i only asked a question....


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## WoopsiiD (16 November 2010)

Haha said:



			The point being what you witnessed is not always what happens in the way they are treated.  Meaning there is always room for doubt so people need to make their own minds up instead of others always saying well I've been there seen it all.  I'm not saying your wrong just you never think that what you've seen or what you think is the be all and end all

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Hang on a minute, you are getting your information from the net????

How can your info be any better than seeing it first hand???


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## Haha (17 November 2010)

nativeponies said:



			oh good grief....are you really so delicate?...where am i being "aggressive"?..i only asked a question....
		
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			Then some people need to grow a pair and go see for themselves, don't you think?
		
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Why do you always get aggressive when someone disagrees with you then start attacking?  
And before you ask!




			are you really so delicate
		
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  why you would ask this? I have no idea.  But in answer to your question no not delicate at all but often have wondered why if someone doesn't agree with you especially on this topic that you seem to resort to attack or thats how it comes across.


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## martlin (17 November 2010)




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## Haha (17 November 2010)

WoopsiiD said:



			Hang on a minute, you are getting your information from the net????

How can your info be any better than seeing it first hand???
		
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Sorry WoopsiiD I have got no info off the net.  It is over the last few years reading NP's replies to people.  Sorry if your a follower but we all have our own opinions. (well some of us do) Others just follow


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## nativetyponies (17 November 2010)

I have not attacked you...nor, AFAIK become "aggressive" in my answer to yourself.

Infact, I actually have answered you with a question..How is asking something being aggressive?

And were you dissagreeing with we?...not sure TBH..I took it as you asking me something..to which i replied by asking you something.

Chill....it will make you a better person..and a tad more understanding


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## martlin (17 November 2010)

Haha said:



			Sorry WoopsiiD I have got no info off the net.  It is over the last few years reading NP's replies to people.  Sorry if your a follower but we all have our own opinions. (well some of us do) Others just follow

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Last few years? Hmm, NP has registered in June this year, if I remember correctly.


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## Amymay (17 November 2010)

Haha said:



http://www.farmersguardian.com/home/.../33811.article 

This is awful.  But I suppose all those that back each other time and again when anything is bought up will say this was not cruel???  NP? Amymay?  and the rest?

I am not a bunny hugger but neither am I that niave to think all in the garden is excellent with some slaughter houses.  What some of you need to also realise is that EVERYONE has their own opinion.
		
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If you've taken the time to _read_ any posts made by myself, NP or _the rest_ as you put it - you will know that we would be horrified at treatment like that of any animal.

What a terribly odd thing for you to have suggested that we would not consider those accusations cruel............


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## Happy Horse (17 November 2010)

I don't think I have read anyone at all defending animals of any type being slaughtered inhumanely.  As far as I have read this thread is just defending the way the two authorised UK horse slaughterhouses treat horses and also defending the right of people to choose it as a humane and possibly economical way of putting down a horse.  NP has seen it with her own eyes and many of us have seen the Animal Aid propaganda video which show the horses being handled competently and dispatched quickly and efficiently.  There are a load of horror stories on the web of farm animals being abused at the point of slaughter, which I think anyone would find despicable and I source my meat from a local farm shop so I know it has had a good life.  To say all slaughter is wrong based on internet reports is naive in the extreme.


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## LauraPD (18 November 2010)

I understand you don't want any shi**y comments, but as it's a public forum, then you have to expect a PUBLIC response. 

Considering you are all supposed to be horse lovers I am amazed at the amount of people who when their horses seem to have run out of purpose, see this as a way of making a couple of hundered quid. I for one could NEVER send my horse to the meat man, even if I were desperate for cash. I don't disagree with a horse being pts for medical reasons and then it's upto the owner whether they want to sell the body for cash or have it cremated. But to kill a horse/pony simply because it has no puporse at the time is just obscene. 

You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

PS - Let's all ride cows instead


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## *hic* (18 November 2010)

LauraPD said:



			PS - Let's all ride cows instead 

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Because it's acceptable to send them for slaughter for several hundred quid?


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## Persephone (18 November 2010)

I can't believe this is still going on. 

The two sides are never going to agree. This argument is just flogging a dead horse


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## Amymay (18 November 2010)

LauraPD said:



			I understand you don't want any shi**y comments, but as it's a public forum, then you have to expect a PUBLIC response. 

Considering you are all supposed to be horse lovers I am amazed at the amount of people who when their horses seem to have run out of purpose, see this as a way of making a couple of hundered quid. I for one could NEVER send my horse to the meat man, even if I were desperate for cash. I don't disagree with a horse being pts for medical reasons and then it's upto the owner whether they want to sell the body for cash or have it cremated. But to kill a horse/pony simply because it has no puporse at the time is just obscene. 

You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

PS - Let's all ride cows instead 

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Actually Laura, I think you'll find - if you read the whole post - that many people recognise the importance of abottoirs _but_ have expressed the view that they _wouldn't_ send their own horse(s) there.


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## Dolcé (18 November 2010)

Persephone said:



			I can't believe this is still going on. 

The two sides are never going to agree. This argument is just flogging a dead horse 

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Clever!! LOL


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## martlin (18 November 2010)

LauraPD said:



			I understand you don't want any shi**y comments, but as it's a public forum, then you have to expect a PUBLIC response. 

Considering you are all supposed to be horse lovers I am amazed at the amount of people who when their horses seem to have run out of purpose, see this as a way of making a couple of hundered quid. I for one could NEVER send my horse to the meat man, even if I were desperate for cash. I don't disagree with a horse being pts for medical reasons and then it's upto the owner whether they want to sell the body for cash or have it cremated. But to kill a horse/pony simply because it has no puporse at the time is just obscene. 

You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

PS - Let's all ride cows instead 

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I was just wondering, do yo feel so strongly about the slaughter of any other animals? Not necessarily a cow or a sheep, but for example a dairy bull calf? After all, it only dies so you can have a pint of milk...


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## *hic* (18 November 2010)

martlin said:



			I was just wondering, do yo feel so strongly about the slaughter of any other animals? Not necessarily a cow or a sheep, but for example a dairy bull calf? After all, it only dies so you can have a pint of milk...
		
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Martlin that is unfair - it dies so you can have LOADS of pints of milk!


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## martlin (18 November 2010)

jemima_too said:



			Martlin that is unfair - it dies so you can have LOADS of pints of milk!
		
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You are right, it's about 12000 litres


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## *hic* (18 November 2010)

Mere semantics - so you can SWIM in a pool full of milk then.


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## Fairynuff (18 November 2010)

and after her contribution in filling swimming pools, she is completely burned out at the age of 5 maybe 6 and ends up at McDonalds, gracing a bun that has never seen grain and a bit of lettuce that rabbits would shun. What a sad bloody existence!


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