# No vet treatments for our bunny



## Myhorseeatsmoney (7 February 2013)

We have had several bunnies over the years and always before they have had their innoculations, teeth done etc. But over the yers we have paid the vets a fortune and when I bought this one for £25 I decided that I would try not to go down the same expensive route again.

Our bunny is now 5 years old has a hutch in our garden that is huge filled with shavings and straw for bedding and as much hay as he wants.  He has fresh water and fresh veg every day and because he has a run 6ft by 12ft always has plenty of grass.

He has never ever been to the vets and yet he is the healthiest bunny ever.  If he ever needs a vet he will be taken to one but until then I am going to keep my money in my pocket.


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## webble (7 February 2013)

Is your bunny a he or a she? If a she and not spayed then she is at a high risk of developing uterine cancer in the next year or so as this is the age unspayed does tend to develop it

Just because nothing has happened yet doesnt mean it wont. There is now a combined VHD and Mxy jab that costs between £30-£40 a year depending on your vets. For peace of mind I would suggest getting it done.

Teeth wise with a good diet of mostly hay providing there are no genetic abnormalities a rabbit shouldnt need its teeth treating regularly


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## Scoutie (7 February 2013)

When I was three years old I was given a Netherland Dwarf rabbit called Dougal (after the Dougal in the Magic Roundabout).  He never received innoculations and lived out most of the year just like yours, his hutch was put in the garden shed when the weather was really bad.  He lived to the grand age of 13 and died just as I was taking my o levels!  Dougal was not such a good name when I was a teenager.


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## fatpony (7 February 2013)

Lucky you - its a gamble and it doesnt always pay off.
Lets hope your bunny doesnt get myxomatosis


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## misterjinglejay (7 February 2013)

If you pop a pumice stone in his hutch, he can gnaw on that and that'll keep his teeth in good order. 
Same goes for rats, chinchillas, hamsters and other lagomorphs/rodents.


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## fatpony (7 February 2013)

How will that help his molars?


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## catxx (7 February 2013)

Not providing adequate vet treatment for a rabbit and leaving it alone in a hutch down the end of the garden is the 20th century way of keeping a rabbit. 

The fact that your rabbit is still alive and hasn't died from Myxi, VHD or other complications is just down to luck. Myxi will kill an unvaccinated rabbit, painfully. VHD kills a rabbit before you realise its sick. That vaccination costs £30 once a year. Hardly breaking the bank for piece of mind. Both can strike at any time with random localised outbreaks every month of the year.

Also a rabbit outdoors alone is a miserable one, no matter how much space they have to run around in. They are sociable creatures and only seeing you for a few times a day is not enough. 99% or rabbits crave companionship. The ONLY way yours could have a friend is if they were spayed or neutered.

Leaving a rabbit entire can easily lead to pretty horrific problems as they age. Males can develop testicular tumours. Females are very prone to reproductive cancers or pretty horrific womb infections. 



misterjay said:



			If you pop a pumice stone in his hutch, he can gnaw on that and that'll keep his teeth in good order. 
Same goes for rats, chinchillas, hamsters and other lagomorphs/rodents.
		
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This is wrong. A rabbit with a correct diet and correctly aligned teeth does not need "knaw stones". If they are to "knaw" on anything it should be on rabbit safe things such as apple tree stumps or hazel twigs. NEVER pumice or mineral stones.

A well bred rabbit with a good hay based will not have dental problems. Mine are 6 years old and the vet says their teeth are so good she questions their age! A poorly bred rabbit will have dental misalignment, a rabbit without a hay-based diet will develop molar spurs.  

I don't think ANYONE should be proud or brag that they never take their animal to the vet, unless they are trained practicing vet themselves.


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## misterjinglejay (7 February 2013)

If the incisors meet correctly, then the molars will wear down properly. The growth rate in chinchillas, which is very similar, is 1.3'' per year, the normal wear rate is 1.15. Obviously this will alter depending on feed and gnawing material available. Maloclusion can be genetic, or environmental (we had to wipe out an entire line of 15 chins when we discovered that a male back in the pedigrees, had maloclusion). So by giving pumice stone, this will even out the wear. In the wild both rabbits, and chins will eat roots etc and other tough fibres, and gnaw on sandstone rocks.


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## webble (7 February 2013)

misterjay said:



			If the incisors meet correctly, then the molars will wear down properly. The growth rate in chinchillas, which is very similar, is 1.3'' per year, the normal wear rate is 1.15. Obviously this will alter depending on feed and gnawing material available. Maloclusion can be genetic, or environmental (we had to wipe out an entire line of 15 chins when we discovered that a male back in the pedigrees, had maloclusion). So by giving pumice stone, this will even out the wear. In the wild both rabbits, and chins will eat roots etc and other tough fibres, and gnaw on sandstone rocks.
		
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But a rabbits diet should be 85ish% hay and it should be this that wears their teeth down not pumice. As Cat said branches are closer to a rabbits natural diet and better for their teeth than any sort of stone which could cause gut and intestinal problems


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## catxx (7 February 2013)

webble said:



			But a rabbits diet should be 85ish% hay and it should be this that wears their teeth down not pumice. As Cat said branches are closer to a rabbits natural diet and better for their teeth than any sort of stone which could cause gut and intestinal problems
		
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Agreed. Rabbits are NOT the same as Chinchillas. You know what would happen if I gave mine a pumice stone? They'd kick it out the way and wonder what the hell I was playing at!

Mine get willow and wicker balls to chuck around and destroy. They also love eating hazel sticks as I have a big hazel tree at the end of my garden. Wild rabbits are more likely to chew on bark and trees than stones. 

Webble is also correct that if they swallow lumps of stone (as they cannot regurgitate) that will cause SERIOUS gut blockages, which can easily kill a rabbit. This is one of the many reasons why they also do not need mineral stones.

As for incisor misalignment, in my experience it's always been genetic in rabbits. And is often resolved by having the incisors entirely removed. I know many dental rabbits without incisors who do just fine, they just need their veges grated. They even manage to graze on grass. 

A rabbits diet should be at least 80% hay. The action of chewing long strands of hay keeps normal molars in check. They have very similar teeth wear to a horse, almost identical in fact.


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## misterjinglejay (7 February 2013)

I absolutely agree, but they don't eat the stone, just gnaw on it. 

Well doen for providing so much fun, and useful stuff to keep your buns happy.


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## catxx (7 February 2013)

misterjay said:



			I absolutely agree, but they don't eat the stone, just gnaw on it. 

Well doen for providing so much fun, and useful stuff to keep your buns happy.
		
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I honestly think the closest my two would come to gnawing on a stone would be to try and pick it up and throw it out the way. They ignore rocks and stones, have no interest in them, when they're out and about. But give them a few sticks of hazel and they're stripped of leaves and bark pretty quick sharpish!

We are straying from the original post, whereby I still stand that you should *never *feel proud of not providing your pet with vet checks or vaccinations just because they don't look like they need it to untrained eyes. 

I volunteer at a rescue and see plenty of rabbits with weight problems, dental problems, eye problems, claw problems, all because they're subtle to see. And at that rescue there are over 100 rabbits, ALL are vaccinated and get regular health checks and vet checks. We take no chances.


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## meandmrblue (9 February 2013)

I've had rabbits over 50years none have been vaccinated or spayed have all lived to elderly ages, the rabbit that is left now is 14 years and seems to still be going strong.she lives in a stable and goes out weather permitting she used to have other rabbits as company but not getting any more now

M


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## Amymay (10 February 2013)

Why do people think it's acceptable to keep animals 'on the cheap'?


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## webble (10 February 2013)

amymay said:



			Why do people think it's acceptable to keep animals 'on the cheap'?
		
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No idea. Sadly it happens a lot with rabbits


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## GinaB (10 February 2013)

Like all my animals, my buns see the vet if I deem it necessary. Given my nature as a worrier, I'm keeping my vet good and busy


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## meandmrblue (10 February 2013)

amymay said:



			Why do people think it's acceptable to keep animals 'on the cheap'?
		
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My rabbits have had best of everything large stable best food on market best hay if I was doing something wrong they wouldn't have survived so long


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## heebiejeebies (11 February 2013)

I've always had rabbits, never vaccinated them, had a mix of indoor and outdoor rabbits, and only ever vaccinated one because he lived outside and  there was a local case of mxy so wanted to be on the safe side. 

They have all lived to a good age, (10+). I always get them neutered/spayed however, for their own comfort and there is less risk of uterine/testicular cancer etc. 

I regularly take them for check ups if taking the cat or dog for treatment, and the vet is always pleased at how healthy and happy they are, and praised me in taking the decision not to vaccinate unnecessarily - the proof is right there, if they don't NEED it they don't get it! 

All too often rabbits are left in a hutch at the bottom of the garden, if you take the time to handle them daily you soon work out what is normal/abnormal for them, just like we do with our horses. 

I don't vaccinate my horse for the hell of it, or myself. I was pregnant when the whole swine flu thing was going around. I refused the vaccination as I refused to pump poison in to my pregnant body, and guess what? My child and I both lived to tell the tale!


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## lurcher98 (11 February 2013)

I am another one who has never spayed or vaccinated in 30 years of rabbit keeping. I live in the countryside yet have never had one catch myxy or vhd and mine have all lived til old age. It's not about keeping them cheaply, I'm happy to take a sick one to the vet if needed. I don't think vaccs were even available when I was a kid


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## Moomin1 (11 February 2013)

amymay said:



			Why do people think it's acceptable to keep animals 'on the cheap'?
		
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This.

OP, I find it a bit worrying you seem to be almost bragging about it too.

If you have an animal, you have a duty of care to it.  That IMO involves protecting it as much as you possibly can from disease and illness.

Too many times I hear the age old "well, he/she has never been sick or sorry, so there's no need to do this or that".  Shortly after, the predicted happens.


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## catxx (11 February 2013)

Moomin1 said:



			This.

OP, I find it a bit worrying you seem to be almost bragging about it too.

If you have an animal, you have a duty of care to it.  That IMO involves protecting it as much as you possibly can from disease and illness.

Too many times I hear the age old "well, he/she has never been sick or sorry, so there's no need to do this or that".  Shortly after, the predicted happens.

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Agreed. 

Fine you can say you've done none of that vaccinating rubbish for 30 years and yours have been FINE. Then you just need a new rabbit keeper to read that, think fine I won't do it either, the next week their rabbit is dead. 

The new combi vaccine is once a year. That's it. I will always vaccinate. 

The only thing rabbits shouldn't have regularly as it's harmful is wormer as that's too harsh on their gut if it's done too frequently.

I would run a mile from a vet that patted me on the back for not vaccinating.


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## Montyforever (12 February 2013)

I've vaccinated my rabbit once in 5 years. He was quite ill for days after, just lying around burning hot with a snotty nose and I really thought I was going to loose him  as he lives indoors, gets plenty of hay etc he's only seen the vet one other time when he did the wall of death around the garden and snapped a claw nastily. 
I won't be vaccinating him again, but his day to day needs (food,hay,water,toys,attention and a clean pen) are all taken care of. He's not just chucked in a hutch in the garden!


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## meandmrblue (12 February 2013)

I guess the proof is in the pudding


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## greyling (12 February 2013)

actually the proof of the pudding is in the eating - not in the pudding


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## wench (12 February 2013)

I have kept rabbits for nearly twenty years, and I have never had them vaccinated. Mainly as they live in an old stable, away from contact with outside/wild rabbits. If I had wild rabbits nearby, I would probably reconsider.

They get taken to the vets if necessary, but none of them have ever been netuered. The only one that we have ever had done was my sisters. She is rather irresponsible with it, and lets it run around on the shed floor for months on end, as she cant be bothered to put it back in it's hutch. On the odd chance that one of my females escaped from the cage... you can imagine what happened. (I would hasten to add that every time my rabbits get out of their cage they get put back as soon as possible.)

Luckily for me/not so lucky for the babies that were produced, the does that had "rogue" litters never seemed to take to them for some reason. So sisters rabbit had his bits cut off, which solved the problem.

In fact one of the times I have taken the rabbit to the vet the shock killed him! If my rabbits need veterinary attention they will get it. However, I have a fairly good knowledge of rabbits and therefore would not take them if I do not think is necessary.


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## NeverSayNever (12 February 2013)

greyling said:



			actually the proof of the pudding is in the eating - not in the pudding
		
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rabbit pie?


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## catxx (12 February 2013)

Montyforever said:



			I've vaccinated my rabbit once in 5 years. He was quite ill for days after, just lying around burning hot with a snotty nose and I really thought I was going to loose him  as he lives indoors, gets plenty of hay etc he's only seen the vet one other time when he did the wall of death around the garden and snapped a claw nastily. 
I won't be vaccinating him again, but his day to day needs (food,hay,water,toys,attention and a clean pen) are all taken care of. He's not just chucked in a hutch in the garden!
		
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That was probably the Cylap VHD vaccine which was notorious for causing reactions. It's now been discontinued.

All vets now use the combi vaccine which came out last summer and so far no major concerns with reactions as there was back when Cylap was used.



meandmrblue said:



			I guess the proof is in the pudding

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And that comment makes me furious. Just because all of 5 people haven't had any problems, doesn't mean everyone should quit going to the vet and vaccinating their rabbits. 

What about the thousands of people that don't vaccinate and their rabbits die from Myxi and VHD? What about the rabbits that live with undiagnosed serious problems and die early, but they looked fine though so what the hell?

The problems we see come through the rescue, obesity, horrendous teeth, serious gut problems like Mega Colon Disease, muscle wastage, mites, seriously that list goes on and on.

I'm going to go and have a cuppa before I smash up my computer now.


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## Montyforever (12 February 2013)

Didn't know that catxx! Would have just assumed it would be the same one, you don't get much communication from vets about rabbits though, my vet wondered why I even bothered to take my bun in when he snapped off his claw (very very close to the vein and very dirty so didn't want to risk an infection) feel like I'm wasting their time usually! You don't get that if you get a vet out to your horse who's snapped off a big chunk of hoof and is really sore do you!


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## catxx (12 February 2013)

Montyforever said:



			Didn't know that catxx! Would have just assumed it would be the same one, you don't get much communication from vets about rabbits though, my vet wondered why I even bothered to take my bun in when he snapped off his claw (very very close to the vein and very dirty so didn't want to risk an infection) feel like I'm wasting their time usually! You don't get that if you get a vet out to your horse who's snapped off a big chunk of hoof and is really sore do you!
		
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Finding a rabbit-savvy vet is an art form in itself.

Did you know that during vet training rabbit care is covered very minimally? They are considered exotics (despite being the third most popular pet in the UK) and therefore in order for a vet to be considered to be of ANY use treating rabbits they will have to done further training after they've qualified! You wouldn't use a dog/cat vet to treat a horse, and you wouldn't use a dog/cat vet to treat a rabbit!

I've heard some atrocious stories from poor rabbits who've suffered in the hands of dog/cat vets who haven't a clue what they're doing! You have to do some leg work to find small animal exotic specialist vets. 

Thankfully I've found some of those myself and Joy and Emily have been nothing but fab when my two have problems (both are prone to gut stasis which requires immediate painkillers and gut stimulant). Their surgery even has a special rabbit room so they don't have to be housed in the same place as dogs, cats or ferrets. A forum like Rabbit Rehome can advise you of your nearest rabbit-friendly vet.


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## meandmrblue (12 February 2013)

catxx said:



			That was probably the Cylap VHD vaccine which was notorious for causing reactions. It's now been discontinued.

All vets now use the combi vaccine which came out last summer and so far no major concerns with reactions as there was back when Cylap was used.



And that comment makes me furious. Just because all of 5 people haven't had any problems, doesn't mean everyone should quit going to the vet and vaccinating their rabbits. 

What about the thousands of people that don't vaccinate and their rabbits die from Myxi and VHD? What about the rabbits that live with undiagnosed serious problems and die early, but they looked fine though so what the hell?

The problems we see come through the rescue, obesity, horrendous teeth, serious gut problems like Mega Colon Disease, muscle wastage, mites, seriously that list goes on and on.

I'm going to go and have a cuppa before I smash up my computer now.
		
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I'm not saying don't vaccinate just with my conditions I didn't need to


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## webble (12 February 2013)

Montyforever said:



			Didn't know that catxx! Would have just assumed it would be the same one, you don't get much communication from vets about rabbits though, my vet wondered why I even bothered to take my bun in when he snapped off his claw (very very close to the vein and very dirty so didn't want to risk an infection) feel like I'm wasting their time usually! You don't get that if you get a vet out to your horse who's snapped off a big chunk of hoof and is really sore do you!
		
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Thats very sad that you experienced that. SOme vets aren't very rabbit savvy and sadly this does result in unspayed unvaccd rabbits. It would be worth asking in your local area for a good rabbit vet. I can find out and report back if you are interested.

My mums vet is in a small village and mostly deals with dogs and farm animals. She took her rabbit in with gut stasis and the vet didnt give any pain relief as he didnt know it was needed. I insisted she went back and requested as rabbits hide pain. It really is frightening how little some vets know. In the same way you wouldnt let a dog expert treat your horse, dont let them treat your rabbit either

To the people who keep their rabbits in hutches unvaccd on a diet of muesli, would you do the same with your horse? Keep it in a stable with only occassional use of a small paddock, cereal based diet and no vet? They arent that different animals in the ir requirements


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## catxx (12 February 2013)

webble said:



			To the people who keep their rabbits in hutches unvaccd on a diet of muesli, would you do the same with your horse? Keep it in a stable with only occassional use of a small paddock, cereal based diet and no vet? They arent that different animals in the ir requirements
		
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^^^ this.



meandmrblue said:



			I'm not saying don't vaccinate just with my conditions I didn't need to
		
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You got lucky, that was all that prevented any problems. Luck.

If you live within 10 miles of a wild rabbit population (and most people do) then your rabbit is at risk of VHD and Myxi. That includes indoor rabbits, unless they live in a sealed bubble. Myxi is carried by biting insects. VHD is carried by contact, all you'd need is to take the dog for a walk, come back with mud on your shoes having stepped on some infected rabbit poopy, and the next thing you know your pet rabbit is dead. It kills in 48 hours.

With all the wet weather we've had, wet weather leaves puddles, puddles mean stagnant water, stagnant water means Mosquito EXPLOSION and they are the main carriers of these problems. ANY biting insect, including fleas which will hitchhike on anything, can pose a problem.


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## lindsayH (12 February 2013)

A couple of quick points. I'm a nurse an an exotics vets. We have vaccinated hundreds of rabbits with the new combi vaccination and have had no reports of ill effects so far.
We have had to PTS pet rabbits with myxi and its always hard to explain to owners (sometimes with children present) that the disease is entirely preventable.
If a rabbit is well handled it shouldn't find the experience too stressful.


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## SuperH (12 February 2013)

I think £30 for a vaccination is pretty steep.  Our vet did my rabbit for a couple of pounds.  But they are farm animal vets and they only charge the price they buy the vaccine at.  Plus they did it while coming out to see a cow so they were already on site.


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## webble (12 February 2013)

SuperH said:



			I think £30 for a vaccination is pretty steep.  Our vet did my rabbit for a couple of pounds.  But they are farm animal vets and they only charge the price they buy the vaccine at.  Plus they did it while coming out to see a cow so they were already on site.
		
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Was that for the combi vaccs? It does vary from vet to vets. Mine are £24


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## catxx (12 February 2013)

SuperH said:



			I think £30 for a vaccination is pretty steep.  Our vet did my rabbit for a couple of pounds.  But they are farm animal vets and they only charge the price they buy the vaccine at.  Plus they did it while coming out to see a cow so they were already on site.
		
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It does vary vet to vet and you got lucky with a farm vet stocking a rabbit vaccine. 

But considering prior to the combi vaccine it was £15-£30 per vaccination, per rabbit, THREE times a year (myxi every 6 months and VHD yearly), it's now a bargain!


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## Myhorseeatsmoney (16 February 2013)

Thanks for your replies.  our rabbit is not left at the end of a long garden and out of sight.  He is in full view of the kitchen window.  He loves coming inside for a play twice a day and loves chasing his ball around the kitchen and jumping over the bars on the chair legs.

There are many rabbits who are vaccinted regularly but who don't receive a 1/4 of the attention ours receives.

I believe every pet owner should have the choice on how to care for their pets as long as there is no cruelty involved.


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## Booboos (16 February 2013)

Myhorseeatsmoney said:



			Thanks for your replies.  our rabbit is not left at the end of a long garden and out of sight.  He is in full view of the kitchen window.  He loves coming inside for a play twice a day and loves chasing his ball around the kitchen and jumping over the bars on the chair legs.

There are many rabbits who are vaccinted regularly but who don't receive a 1/4 of the attention ours receives.

I believe every pet owner should have the choice on how to care for their pets as long as there is no cruelty involved.
		
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I don't mean to be rude and you clearly care very much for your pet in many ways, but why do you think that letting your rabbit suffer and die from an entirely preventable disease is not cruelty?

Of course some unvaccinated individuals will avoid diseases...that's just herd immunity and/or luck for you, not something you can take credit for.


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