# BBC2 HORSE PEOPLE - PLEASE RING THE BBC AND COMPLAIN



## thea1 (7 April 2009)

Can't believe what I just saw .... was almost sick when they showed a mare  strangled / beaten to death and then skinned. Was it really necessary to show this in such graphic detail - even if a warning was given at the start of the programme. Please please ring up the BBC and log a complaint.


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## lucretia (7 April 2009)

i just turned over to watch the last part and that was what i saw. Nice and i totally agree with you.


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## TicTac (7 April 2009)

I have also just watched the programe and did find the scenes distressing, however that is how those people live and that sort of thing goes on all over the world. Up untill that point the horse had lived a long a stress free life and whilst the way in which it was killed is not one that we, as westerners would carry out, thease people know no other way.

I personally don't believe a complaint to the BBC is warranted.


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## muffinino (7 April 2009)

So, if you didn't want to see graphic content, why did you ignore the warning and watch? There was plenty of opportunity to look away, it was quite obvious what was going to happen.


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## A1fie (7 April 2009)

I also don't think a complaint is warranted.  I watched the program and although that scene was unpleasant and upsetting, it was also only a small part of a program which showed us a glimpse into a different cultures lifestyle and relationship with horses.

It was clear to me that these people cared about their horses and looked after them and treated them well.

To be honest stories like the one futher down this page like the dog that was tied up and left to die, upset me more.  That is deliberate and mindless cruelty and torture.  I do not think the program showed that these people were cruel.  

I do think that there are definately kinder ways of killing an animal but these men have limited resources at their disposal and were killing for a purpose not for no reason or for fun.


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## JenHunt (7 April 2009)

Thank you TicTac and Muffinino! common sense prevails.

I thought it was a fair representation of their way of life, and the girl did her best to show it as she saw it, but balanced by their justifications, beliefs, and culture. 

and, surely she was the one up close and personal, not us lot sat some 1000's of miles away!


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## geronimostilton (7 April 2009)

I also watched it, and yes it was distressing to watch, but it was a documentary made by a horse lover (who was obviously upset) showing how these people live. There was plenty of warning about what it was going to contain.

Personally I found it fascinating as well as distressing, and no, I will not complain about the bbc opening our eyes to how people live hard lives in harsh environments. After watching things like that I realise how easy and soft our lives are!


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## Gonetofrance (7 April 2009)

I agree it was hard to stomach, but I'm not so sure that it warrants complaints. 
I watched because I wanted to know. I kind of wish I hadn't, but the warnings were there. 
It's how these people live. I don't think we should be shielded from the realities. There is an off button. 

I did wonder, though, don't they have guns?


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## Battyoldbint (7 April 2009)

I was sick and i cried BUT i wont complain becose it was really interesting, and we cant impose our culture onto other people, i made the choice to watch it even after the warning


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## lucretia (7 April 2009)

perhaps the warning might have been contained in some of the promotional items as well then. I tuned in late because i was watching the football so missed the beginning and didnt care for the completely graphic way the horse was dying as i turned over. 
   and while it is true that this is the reality, I am getting a little tired of this defense. I am wondering where good sense and common decency has gone from a great many programmes. God sake, in Hollywood the companies have to put a little note on films saying no animal was hurt etc, but the in the name of being 'real' the BBC can do as it likes. Just when i was thinking this might be a bit of good horse PR for a change.


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## muffinino (7 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you TicTac and Muffinino! common sense prevails. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Good gods, common sense + me? Don't let that rumour get around, people will talk!


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## legaldancer (7 April 2009)

I did find that scene shocking as I thought it would be shot (why sattelite TV but no guns?),but there was a warning &amp; that is the reality of those people's lives, &amp; they will carry on. 
Complaining to the BBC is unwarranted. The horses looked very well considering the harsh conditions. I think there is often more cause for concern with the way some people keep their horses here.


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## thea1 (7 April 2009)

I didn't catch the very start of the programme so didn't get the benefit of the warning beforehand, otherwise I would have chosen not to watch. But are you seriously saying that the scene needed to be shown in such a detailed manner, with close ups of the distressed animal? you may be comfortable with being "educated" in this way, but I was not. Common sense?
Just a final thought; if they showed a dog in china in the same manner; how many thousands of complaints would the bbc get?


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## Pixxie (7 April 2009)

i dont think a complaint is necessary as i agree that they were simply giving an honest account of how these people live their lives, and therefore the only way they know and have been taught how to kill horses. it is their way of life. they cherish their horses for different reasons, btu still love them very very much

i personally did look away while they killed the mare and turned the sound off

however it did come with a warning so i dont think a complaint is warranted.

x


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## muffinino (7 April 2009)

You may not have seen the warnings that were in all the write ups but it was, imo, obvious what was going to happen. It happens, fact of life.
Maybe we should cut out scenes where animals are killed in Attenborough documentaries, or edit the news so that nobody has to see poverty, famine, death in war. I do not believe in obscuring that which is fact - it may be difficult to watch, but what is there to complain about? The BBC doing what they're supposed to; providing honest programming.


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## geronimostilton (7 April 2009)

Lucretia  - you can hardly compare a hollywood film made for entertainment and big profits with an educational documentary showing a way of life.


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## Doris68 (7 April 2009)

I did watch the early part and I understood that is how these people live and, how they have lived for thousands of years.  However, I chose not to watch any further...........my choice.  I am not a bunny hugger and accept that these people need to eat the horses to survive, however, I did not wish to watch the demise of their horses....again, my choice!


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## JS65 (7 April 2009)

OP I got to that point and chose to turn it off.

 If you found it so distrssing, why did you not do the same?


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## Doris68 (7 April 2009)

Pixxie - sorry, I meant to reply to the OP...pressed wrong button!  Too much Franch wine.......


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## muffinino (7 April 2009)

Exactly, JS65, you did not like it, no problem with that, but you decided not to watch. It just gets on my nerves when people watch documentaries and complain about the content being graphic or offensive - it's real life!

Films, entertainment programmes are different, if they are offensive then somebody has sat down and written it. If something like this doc has been filmed and nothing added, it's fact. If you choose not to watch it, fair enough, but complaining it is offensive is like complaining life is offensive, when it's just being shown as it can be - brutal, harsh and tough.


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## muffinino (7 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Pixxie - sorry, I meant to reply to the OP...pressed wrong button!  Too much Franch wine....... 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

That last biut made me LOL for some reason!


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## lucretia (7 April 2009)

which is exactly my point. in one of those blockbusting films, they are required to state it was not reality. I am sorry that so many people think it is fine to show an animal suffering for no other reason than entertainment dressed up as 'education'.  if you had seen all the programme i am quite sure it would have been obvious what was going to happen but there was still no need for the detail as it was shown. And as it happens i didnt see any of the start, i changed channels in order to watch what i thought would be a good horse programme just in time to see axes and strangulations. Nice. 
   And please dont insult those invoved in wars or natural disasters by making facile comparisons. There is a need then for the world to be made aware of the plight of those suffering so something can be done to aliviate it. if the purpose of this programme was to encourage the donation of a few humane killers then fine, but to show such gory detail just for the sake of it was sickening. If the BBC put a documentary on showing the awful mexican slaughter houses on tv I would be equally shocked but at least there wuld be  a good reason i.e. to raise awareness and put an end to them. 
  I can't really see how tonight's footage can be justified. Any more than if it was a pig or cow being slaughtered for the same purpose tbh.


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## suzysparkle (7 April 2009)

I watched it and thought it was fascinating. I notice though that no-one here has commented on the wolf trapping which was also quite horrible. I admit I looked away when the Mare was killed - it was pretty obvious it would be nasty. But, do you know what, I'm glad they show these things. If they didn't we'd have no concept of how other cultures live. 

These Horses were clearly loved dearly and looked after very well (better than a lot of meat animals that we eat I'm sure). They said that Mare had failed to have a foal for 4 years so they gave her a pretty good chance I'd say. The death could definately have been more humane that's for sure but that's their way of life. 

I was watching them skin the wolf (cringing) and thinking at least it's been killed first. I got an email just the other day re dogs being skinned alive and campaigning against it. No way could I bring myself to watch the link.

I don't think a complaint is necessary at all. What exactly is the complaint anyway? That we have been given an insight into the lives of people over there or about what they do? If it's the former, which I suspect it is, then I doubt the BBC will be able to do much about it.

RE warnings. There was a warning at the start and when you pressed the 'i' button on sky.


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## Cherisheddust (7 April 2009)

Having a family member that lives in Siberia 7 months of the year. I sort of feel able to comment on these people. 
Kind, generous and passive. With a true love and respect, for not only their beloved horses but also the landscape and wildlife. 
We only saw a snap shot of their year. Not how hard they worked to produce the feed to be able to sustain the horses through the extremely long cold. It's not like our winters, here today and gone next month. These people would not be able to survive without their horses, nor the horses without them. 
We have no idea how months of -30 feels. How it effects you bodily and mentally. Life expectancy is reduced. A very hard life.
There is a spiritual connection between man and horse that really didn't come across in the programme. Both dependant on each other. Not somethng we can often say about the UK and our favoured meat animals.


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## geronimostilton (7 April 2009)

So, since you agree completely with the OP, we all have to complain to the BBC just because you were upset?


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## thea1 (7 April 2009)

Just to clarify; muffinino; I flicked on to the channel, saw the distressing scene and turned it off, i stayed on the channel for a maximum of around 3 minutes, I did not watch the whole programme and then decide to complain, I am not that much of a hypocrite.


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## lannerch (7 April 2009)

I didn't last much longer watching the program than the wolf trapping I found that brutal, thankgoodness I hit the off button when I did.

Can someone please train them how to use a gun.

I too am horrified that so many people justify watching an animal unnecessarily suffering.

If they are really pasionate about their animals I am sure they will be open to less barbaric slaughter methods if shown how!


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## thea1 (7 April 2009)

Wow; I wouldv'e thought as horse lovers; (I am an owner of a showjumper,) that people would have also found what the bbc showed as shocking, I feel it did warrant a complaint, MY OPINION, I am quite shocked that people thought it was an alright thing to show a horse being strangled with a rope. We slaughter animals in a humane way, and there are regulations to make sure the animals have a good way of life before they are killed. I don't believe that showing these horses compassion during their life is a good excuse for the way they kill them. 
And to repeat, if your defence is that its their culture, showing dogs being slaughtered in china would recieve a hell of a lot of complaints, and they are tens of charities fighting the cause, how is it so different for horses, as a horse owner, I find that very hypocritcal and wrong. Again, my opinion.


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## muffinino (7 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
 Just to clarify; muffinino; I flicked on to the channel, saw the distressing scene and turned it off, i stayed on the channel for a maximum of around 3 minutes, I did not watch the whole programme and then decide to complain, I am not that much of a hypocrite.  

[/ QUOTE ] 

Well, why complain then? You didn't like it so you didn't watch it.

If you'd turned on a bit earlier and watched the whole thing it might have given you a bit of context. It might not have seemed so bad overall.


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## muffinino (7 April 2009)

Like I said, it's a documentary, designed to show factual events, which it did. It was unpleasant, yes, but such is life for these people. It's not their culture, it's how they stay alive.


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## thea1 (7 April 2009)

I think it explains it in my post above, but i say again, I don't think watching the whole programme would have changed my opinion, showing that way of killing a horse can not be put in a different context. And i don't believe that killing a horse in that way justifiable, whatever your culture


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## Arabelle (7 April 2009)

TheaL, I am quite shocked you would complain about a programme you admit having watched for only 3 minutes.  Talk about a knee jerk reaction.  

If you had watched more of the programme, you would have seen the presenter extremely distressed by the slaughter method.  It was in no way suggested that this was a good or acceptable method of horse slaughter.  Nonetheless, it is a method that has been used for centuries and continues to this day.  

You can put your fingers in your ears and go 'la la la' or you can try and learn a bit more about other people's way of living and THEN make a judgement.  Please don't try and prevent intellegent, if disturbing, programmes being broadcast for the rest of us.
A


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## Chestnuttymare (7 April 2009)

When the mare hit the ground, i flicked to the next channel as it was obvious what was next. i came back to see it being sl
skinned. I think it was an excellent insight into how these people live. They seem a very good natured bunch leading a very hard and desolate life. They don't have the luxury of nipping down to asda to pick up some pre packed meat so have to do it themselves. They are obviously very fond of their animals and have a close bond with their horses. However, these are not 'pets'  like most of ours, they have to pay their way, or end up on the table.
It is not our way of doing things, but it is theirs and that is how they have lived for many generations.
I don't think there is a need for complaint. If you don't want to see how people from other cultures  do things, then watch the football or eastenders.


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## muffinino (7 April 2009)

How were they supposed to kill a strong, wild horse without a gun then?
They had to get hold of her by the neck and subdue her, unfortunately the only way to do this (it seems) is to cut off the air supply and start to render the animal unconscious. I would have thought they've had a lot of practice at it; through experience maybe they have concluded a couple of quick blows to the head is the quickest way to kill a large animal. Slitting the throat would take too long and it is probably difficult to get through the thick coat and skin (incidently, it was noted earlier in the programme that their skin &amp; fur is very thick).


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## Cherisheddust (7 April 2009)

We have to remember these people rarely see outsiders. Input from other so called civilised countries is low.  Don't forget how angered we are in the UK when newcomers try and enforce their ways of life on us. 
I'm sure they would be open to a more humane way of slaughter, if they saw theirs as in-humane.
Bear in mind it couldn't be drug induced because of the meat and cost. Guns, maybe, but they cost money plus you need bullets. The nearest gun shop is probably Moscow for these guys. How do they afford to drive there, buy the bullets and drive back?  The distances involved in Russia are huge. It's not like taking a trip to the nearest UK town.


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## muffinino (7 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
TheaL, I am quite shocked you would complain about a programme you admit having watched for only 3 minutes.  Talk about a knee jerk reaction.  

If you had watched more of the programme, you would have seen the presenter extremely distressed by the slaughter method.  It was in no way suggested that this was a good or acceptable method of horse slaughter.  Nonetheless, it is a method that has been used for centuries and continues to this day.  

You can put your fingers in your ears and go 'la la la' or you can try and learn a bit more about other people's way of living and THEN make a judgement.  Please don't try and prevent intellegent, if disturbing, programmes being broadcast for the rest of us.
A 

[/ QUOTE ]

This.


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## suzysparkle (7 April 2009)

Quote - We slaughter animals in a humane way, and there are regulations to make sure the animals have a good way of life before they are killed. 

Hmmm, so you think that stuffing thousands of chickens in a barn so they can barely move is humane? Importing pork from abroad where the sows are kept in such a way that they can't move other than lie down or stand up (where a lot of supermarket pork ie bacon comes from) is humane? Also that they are castrated as piglets with no aneasthetic. In the UK their tales are cut off with no anaesthetic as piglets.

I'm pretty sure these men didn't have guns. Why else would they resort to dogs and traps to kill the wolves? If the wolves got the Horses then death would be a LOT more inhumane...ie they start eating while the animal is still alive. I suspect there are reasons why they aren't allowed guns.

I agree it was shocking. But it was reality and normal to them, has been for a very long time.


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## suzysparkle (7 April 2009)

PS In china, dogs are born and raised in appalling conditions. They are then skinned alive and left to die. So yes, totally different.


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## no_no_nanette (7 April 2009)

I also thought that it was a fascinating programme - and equally found the killing of the mare incredibly difficult to watch, but felt at the end of the programme that I'd learnt a lot about a completely different culture, and had enormous respect for these guys who live incredibly tough lives and care very much for their horses.

I think that the conditions under which many of our meat animals are killed in this country very possibly cause them much longer distress, with all the travelling and arrival at a strange premises, and the smell of blood and fear - (and by the way I believe that shooting often doesn't work that efficiently first time).  

I don't think that there was any unnecessary lingering on the mare killing, but the film did show the stark reality of what the herders life involves. Sometimes its no bad thing for us to be reminded in our very safe and cosy existence in the west how brutal and tough life can be for people in other parts of the world.  And I bet that the BBC are just waiting for all the  complaints to come in, so you could argue that it was actually a brave programme to air ....


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## SSM (8 April 2009)

Personally if I contact the Beeb it will be to congratulate them on showing such an open documentary about a different culture and way of life, I could not live how they do and could not kill animals in the way they do, but found it fascinating insight into how people live in such a desolate place.  As for using guns, why change how they have lived for centuries - non of their animals are allowed to suffer, yes the mare was distressed but not left to suffer for years as many animals here are allowed to do.


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## Amymay (8 April 2009)

I found the manner in which they killed the horse absolutely appalling - and really can't comprehend that this manner of killing still goes on.  I won't comment on the trapping of the wild animals as it will result in a ban from HHO.

It doesn't warrant a complaint to the BBC though, obviously.  This is the way these people have lived for many 100's of years.  And will not doubt change very little over the intervening years.

In the meantime, though, if someone could introduce them to the principle of a gun - that would be great.


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## Jericho (8 April 2009)

Agree we have no right to judge those people. It was harrowing for us to watch but we have free will as to whether we want to watch. Totally agree with with SS's Mum that we (and other countries) subject our animals to far worse long term cruelty) What would those men think of how we treat chickens pumping them full of drugs, keeping them in tiny cages or horses left neglected in fields/ stables with no food / water or transporting horses in a lorry to another country hundreds of miles away just to be slaughtered there, where it is frightened and starved of water and food for many hours if not days and so on and so on and so on... 

In the absence of a gun, probably the quickest way for the horse to die although not pleasant. And as somone rightly said a wolf would not thin twice about eating it alive to feed itself and family..


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## sally259 (8 April 2009)

Maybe guns won't work in those extreme temperatures.


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## happyhack (8 April 2009)

QR-I watched the entire programme and was prepared for the killing of the horse from the start as there were plenty of warnings (ie, these people breed their horses for meat....here is where they keep the foal meat....these are the foals that have been bred for meat) so TBH I think I would have been disappointed if they didnt show the slaughter after all we had seen every other aspect of their lives.

I did not watch the killing of the mare as I was eating my dinner but I would have done if I hadnt been eating. I have recorded it and will be watching what I did not see tonight when I get home from work.

I cant see that any aspect of the programme warrants a complaint as I found it very interesting and higjly enlightening.


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## Tinkerbee (8 April 2009)

QR

Why on earth should we complain?
There were plenty of warnings and as happyhack says, hints. 

What is this, the Daily Mail website?


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## Eagle_day (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Personally if I contact the Beeb it will be to congratulate them ... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Same here: I thought it the best thing done by the BBC for quite a while.  An honest and utterly non-judgemental potrayal of a way of life completely alien to most of us. Yet in that harsh environment (-27C) they love and care for their horses - the animals looked very well.

Where's the programme based next week ? I'll certainly be watching.


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## Kenzo (8 April 2009)

Well me and the OH got nestled down to watch it with our spag bol on my laps and a glass of wine and .......hmmm well not really the content I expected, well wanted to watch when eating my dinner.

I did find it interesting purely because that is real life and Alexandra was shown the warts an all, it wouldn't be the same just letting her ride around in the pictures scenery and not expecting her to see the end result of what they do, she was a very brave lady and I take my hat off to her, I'm not sure I could of stood there and watched it happen in real life, although I did surprise myself and managed to force myself to watch the killing on TV, despite my OH saying ''please turn it over this will upset you for days'' (as I am very soft) but I thought no, I have watched the horses lead a very natural and stress free life, I have watched the men take care of them, I have watched and understood why they do it, so now I must watch final process.  

Yes it was horrible, but at the same time there are horses out there that are intentially ill treated, starved to death and lead very stressful and painful lives even in this country and at end of the day all wild animals are hunted down by predators, except this time the predator cared for the animals first.  

Many horses that are bound for the meat trade encounter terrible conditions during live transport, being hauled across counties without food or water, with horrific injuries and beaten off the wagon and no doubt killed in more horrific ways in some cases, which I think if far worse that what those guys were doing, although I do wish there was another way they could kill them.


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## crazyponys (8 April 2009)

i too watched up until i was fully aware of how upsetting the next scene was going to be for myself personally.
so i too chose to turn over.
we all had a choice


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## ladyt25 (8 April 2009)

From hearing these posts I am just glad I didn't watch it. I had a pretty good idea what sort of programme it would be to be honest, it mentioned about bullfighting in the summary of the episodes so i thought definitely not for me.

Yeah sure this way of life goes on and has been for years but personally I wouldn't want to see it. I agree you had a choice whether to watch it or not - I chose to watch the BBC 1 drama instead, much mroe light hearted!


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## Sooty (8 April 2009)

I haven't read the entire thread, so apologise if this is a repeat. I was sickened by the scene. No matter how poor these people are, (and they are developed enough to have satellite tv in their wilderness!), there is absolutely no justification for how that horse suffered. I am realistic about horse slaughter, and have absolutely no problem with people eating every part of a horse. However, seeing that terrified mare strangled to the point of collapse, then suffering several blows to the front of her head with an axe whilst still alive, is a sight and sound which will haunt me for a very long time. And yes, I did lose sleep over it - it was the most barbaric thing I have seen. There are several charities which help educate people, and these men clearly care about their horses. Can a captive bolt gun be used on a horse? I don't see the point in complaining to the BBC - this is what happens, and maybe showing it will help get the method of slaughter changed.


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## harrihjc (8 April 2009)

I missed the beginning of the programme and was looking for some light hearted background tv while i was writing my dissertation....saw 'horse' in the title and switched it on. I am perfectly accepting of people eating horse meat, in the same way that we eat other meat and love learning about other cultures. I knew the horse was going to be killed for meat but was expecting it to be shot, I was absolutely horrified and sickened by what i saw, the obvious fear and distress of the animal were the biggest issue for me, I found it extermely upsetting. I carried on watching (all be it hiding behind my laptop!) because I wanted to see it in context. I wouldn't complain because I appreciate reality and honesty and I thought the presenter did a great job of showing that, but I hope to god they find a faster method that causes the horse less distress soon!!


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## pixie (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Personally if I contact the Beeb it will be to congratulate them on showing such an open documentary about a different culture and way of life, I could not live how they do and could not kill animals in the way they do, but found it fascinating insight into how people live in such a desolate place.  As for using guns, why change how they have lived for centuries - non of their animals are allowed to suffer, yes the mare was distressed but not left to suffer for years as many animals here are allowed to do. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Please could people contact the bbc and congratulate them on this program!  The form is here: 
https://faq.external.bbc.co.uk/templates...earchString=%24


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## muffinino (8 April 2009)

It was brutal but again, I can't really think imagine a quicker way to kill a large, wild, panicky animal without a gun. Slitting her throat would have taken longer. Cutting off the air supply started to render her unconscious, so they were able to safely get her to the ground to kill her. I'm not trying to provoke here, I genuinely would like to know how else would people suggest they do it?

This thread was about the complaining about it, which I still think is unnecessary. It was unpleasant to watch but the documentary did what it was designed to; it presented life as it is, not gratuitously or sensationally, but recorded the facts as they are.


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## Tenzing (8 April 2009)

Culture is best defined as "The way things are done round here". And that is how the Herders slaughter a horse. It is not a method they use because it is traditional like Morris Dancing and they don't want it to die out.

Why don't they use a gun? Guns cost a lot of money which they don't have. This method of slaughter is free. (by the way, weapons do work in such temperatures, you just have to use a different gun oil). 

I thought the programme was excellent and I echo the opinions of many others on here that it is one of the best things the BBC have done in an age. 

Alexandra Tostoy was outstanding. She made it clear what she did and didn't like and was honest about it to the herders. I also thought the fact that horses are central to the culture of North Siberia was compelling viewing. These are tough people with an incredibly matter of fact view of life and death - but probably because they live closer to the reality of death (theirs as well as of animals) than we can possibly imagine.

The call to complain about this programme is a bit of an over-reaction (especially when you only saw it for 3 minutes) and if anything the BBC should be congratulated for showing a very balanced portrait of how life actually is in some parts of the world. The trapping and skinning and eating of intestine was vivid and not always to my taste, but no less interesting.

I saw no cruelty. Upleasantness, yes. Cruelty, no. I think the next programme in Spain which includes a segment about bullfighting from horseback will be more disturbing. I believe bullfighting is cruelty wrongly justified by "tradition". But I doubt I will be complaining as it will highlight a genuinely cruel sport with absolutely no point to it. Only by showing it in all its vulgarity can you truly get opinion to change.

Total support for the programme and content from me.


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## TicTac (8 April 2009)

well said.


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## ChocoCornflake (8 April 2009)

QR - Im going to add my twopence worth, as I saw it all the way through.  I thought the way the herdsmen cared for their horses was commendable - they all  looked happy and in excellent condition.  The riding horses looked fab, how amazing did it look when they went hacking through the woods to find the trapped hares!  
The slaughter did disturb me at the time - I thought to myself why the hell cant they get a gun? BUT - The horses, other than the ridden ones, are extremely wild, so much so that the presenter moved her arm a fraction and they fled.  How then are the herdsmen meant to get a correct and lethal shot to the animals head, when its pelting round a corral? I think the only way they would have to catch it was in the manner shown, these horses look extremely strong, and surely it would cause them more distress to be rounded up into say a cattle crush type thing, and then have someone attempt to shoot it, probably miss and cause great suffering and pain.  
Yes it was distasteful, but a fact of life.  I have far less an issue with the Siberian horse people than I do those on the continent, whose horses are left dehydrated and in appaling conditions being hauled across thousands of miles to be inhumanely killed.  
Right up until the end that mare looked so healthy, scared yes, but I feel that the slaughter is a small price to pay for the outstandigly amazing free and happy life she had lived up until then.  Over there horses are their only way to survive, most are still wild, they are not pets.  I wonder if the issue would have been raised if the herdsmen had cows instead of horses?


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## Serephin (8 April 2009)

I watched this programme and whilst I found parts of it disturbing, I alo found it fascinating.  I turned away from the screen and blocked my ears when they killed the mare, cos I didn't want the image emblazoned on my memory.

I think it was a great programme and I will be watching next week.


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## M_G (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Can't believe what I just saw .... was almost sick when they showed a mare  strangled / beaten to death and then skinned. Was it really necessary to show this in such graphic detail - even if a warning was given at the start of the programme. Please please ring up the BBC and log a complaint. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be so ridiculous ring up and complain about what?? different cultures and ways of life..

I found the programme truly fascinating yes at time a bit grim but the whole world is different if you don't want to learn about other cultures turn the TV off


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## M_G (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't catch the very start of the programme so didn't get the benefit of the warning beforehand, otherwise I would have chosen not to watch. But are you seriously saying that the scene needed to be shown in such a detailed manner, with close ups of the distressed animal? you may be comfortable with being "educated" in this way, but I was not. Common sense?
Just a final thought; if they showed a dog in china in the same manner; how many thousands of complaints would the bbc get? 

[/ QUOTE ]

They did a few years ago (or was it C4) and that is what brought the plight of the dogs and cats into the public eye. Perhaps you should refrain from watching any real life documentary's and stick to eastenders


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## lucretia (8 April 2009)

if anyone particularly muffinio had bothered to read my posts at no point do i say i have any problem with these people or their culture, nor that they kill horses. 
  What i have a problem with is the graphic portayal of the animals demise when there was no need to show the entire scene. as many people have said if you watched it all it would have been obvious what was going to happen. I have vociferously stuck up for things like bull fighting on this forum because i do believe that their our other cultures to ours and we understand them little. I am alos well aware as Cherish says that these cultures aas portrayed on the programme loved and cherish their animals and do their best for them.
  that does not change the fact that i didnt need to see the act in its entirety just so i could be 'educated' and see 'reality'. I found those few minutes to be entirely distressing and i am probably  the least tree/bunny hugging person i know. Particualrly as the promotionals for the show made it sound like a jolly excursion for a pony girl. 
  Once again though in this thread i see certain people have resorted to snide digs and sarcasm instead of reasoned debate, and others who do not read comments properly.


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## Sooty (8 April 2009)

I don't believe for one minute the entire slaughter ritual was shown; it was obviously editted and almost certainly took a lot longer than the few minutes shown. We used to have some pretty barbaric traditions involving horses and through education and learning have evolved. It is a shame people whose living depends on horses don't show some respect when despatching them. Absolutely horrible. Why anyone would want to congratulate or condemn the BBC is beyond me, although if showing this gets these men to change their slaughter methods, I might thank the BBC.


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## ladyt25 (8 April 2009)

I agree with Lucretia and I didn't see the programme but there does seem to be a trend on these documentaries of being as shocking as they can and pushing the boundaries. I don't see the need at all. I don't see why they would have felt it was necessary to show the horse being killed in what sounds like an horrific way (again, glad I didn't see it).

I certainly would not want to see the one about bullfighting at all. Tradition or not, it is not necessary as entertainment these days and I don't see how they can justify killing an animal in the name of 'fun'!


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## muffinino (8 April 2009)

I did read your comments properly, I haven't had a go at you nor replied directly to you so why you think I'm targetting you in particular I don't know.
My beef is with the idea that we should complain because we don't like something and that it should be censored - complain about what, exactly? That we didn't like graphic scenes depicting an actual event? You didn't have to watch the whole thing, you were able to turn over. I don't think it was portrayed that graphically; the angle was from behind the horse and not directly in front of her. If they wanted to, they could have filmed the front of the horse and shown the axe hitting her from there, which would have been much more graphic. As it was, I thought they did it quite well, you could see what was happening but not close up and there was no blood or anything else visible.
I never said you had a problem with another people's culture, either 
	
	
		
		
	


	




You are the one now resorting to snide comments at me, when I haven't replied to you in particular nor made any personal comments about you or anyone myself.


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## Sooty (8 April 2009)

Eh? The animal was killed because it was to be eaten, not for fun. The documentary was far from sensational; it showed it like it is. Animal welfare is low on the agenda where extreme poverty and a hard life are the norm; they snared hares and trapped foxes, too. I am glad they showed such a terrible end to the horse's life, because now maybe someone will show these people, who clearly care about horses, that there may be alternative ways that are not so horrific.


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## happyhack (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Eh? The animal was killed because it was to be eaten, not for fun. The documentary was far from sensational; it showed it like it is. Animal welfare is low on the agenda where extreme poverty and a hard life are the norm; they snared hares and trapped foxes, too. I am glad they showed such a terrible end to the horse's life, because now maybe someone will show these people, who clearly care about horses, that there may be alternative ways that are not so horrific. 

[/ QUOTE ]
well said Sooty


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## BBH (8 April 2009)

I didn't see this programme but your description alone made me sick to my stomach and if an outcry does anything to change the way these people dispatch their animals it can only be a good thing.

I do fear though that animal welfare is never going to improve,   even views from some on here are tolerant to cruelty just because its a different cultural way of doing things. Maybe we should club together and buy them a bl@@dy gun. 

I mean the Brook are changing the mindset of others in different countries and clearly there is work to be done.


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## happyhack (8 April 2009)

How can you comment when you havent seen the programme:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00jt4pk/Horse_People_with_Alexandra_Tolstoy_Siberia/ 

 [ QUOTE ]
 I do fear though that animal welfare is never going to improve, even views from some on here are tolerant to cruelty just because its a different cultural way of doing things. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

I am not tolerant to cruelty in any way shape or form and utterly resent this comment


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## Fazzie (8 April 2009)

I cried my eyes out and felt awful, i know its how they live and they have to make money to live, that the horses are well cared for etc but i honestly thought the horse was going to be shot, even my hubby had tears in his eyes watching it and i had to look away, it really upset me, i did hear the warning at the beginning but i kinda 'had' to watch it because i wanted to know how they live etc. 
the other thing that i was wondering about was the fact that they kill horses before they get old, i wonder what old is to them???


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## BBH (8 April 2009)

Sorry I don't see where this comment was addressed to you


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## ladyt25 (8 April 2009)

Sooty, am not sure if you 'fun' comment was directed back at me but if so then I was not connecting that with this programme but one of the instalments in the series is covering bullfighting which, as far as I am aware is still carried out due to tradition and for entertainment and is not necessary to the survival of those who take part.

I am well aware in the programme shown last night the horse was killed to effectively make full use of it - ie meat and skin. However, I do not see the need to show graphic details of it's death and, from what people have said you did see a fair bit.

I think maybe some education for these people could help as it has in other countries where horses and donkeys are a means to a family's livelihood. Maybe a more effective and less seeimngly barbaric method of slaughter could be taught?


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## spaniel (8 April 2009)

Im sorry its utterly ridiculous for anyone who didnt see this DOCUMENTARY to comment.

Lets get clinical....

WILD horse,  well fed and protected in return for producing meat foals.
After 4 barren years she is chosen as a meat horse.
She is corraled (and escapes once) re corraled and lassoed around the neck at great danger to those within the coral.
She is posted which results in her airway being cut off,  she does struggle but succumbs to unconsciousness.
She is priested (JUST AS THOUSANDS OF FISH ARE DAILY BY RECREATIONAL ANGLERS IN THE UK) and then has her heart stopped with a knife.

Its not nice but one heck of a lot quicker and safer than trying to kill her with a gun, a bolt or a slit to the throat all of which would be nigh on IMPOSSIBLE in a wild animal.

You may not like it but its the way it is.

Now if reality is not your thing - dont watch documentaries with warnings on them.


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## happyhack (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry I don't see where this comment was addressed to you   
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Open public forum.

I'll post what I like thanks


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## Sooty (8 April 2009)

Well we appear to have watched different documentaries, because the horse I saw having its head chopped at with a axe was perfectly conscious, and the dreadful noise it made as it struggled for breath was horrific. Just because it happens to fish too doesn't make it right! If they can get to her head with an axe, they can get to it with a bolt.


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## BBH (8 April 2009)

You posted a comment under my user name saying you resented my comment therefore I am making the point that it wasn't addressed to you, as I am also entitled to do.

I think you need to take a chill pill, I'm not gonna carry on this silliness.


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## spaniel (8 April 2009)

In my view it was semi conscious.   However if totally conscious theres no way I would want to stand close enough to it for long enough to line up a bolt or a bullet!

Given the circumstances of life out there I really cant see a safer alternative to the way this is done.  I know its a bit odd but I actually found the sight of those hares hanging in snares more shocking.


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## Theresa_F (8 April 2009)

No the death was not great, but compared to some of the slaughter house deaths that are on video, it was far more humane.  Prior to this the horse was well cared for, not travelled miles in terrible conditons and then penned up waiting to be shoved into a tight hole and then badly stunned and its throat cut as happens in some of the Mexican horror places.

Whilst some people have said about shooting the horse, they would still have had to rope and then secure her.  To attempt to shoot a horse that is not kept still would be far more cruel than the method used.

A crush is just as distressing to a wild animal - remember the recent video of the sanctuary deaths - personally I found that far more distressing than the roping.  Whilst strangulation is not nice to watch, at least she was still and not totally aware of her surroundings when the axe was applied so it was done as cleanly as possible.  The axe was also quicker than slitting her throat.

I feel the film gave enough information but did not show the actual axe hitting her head which would have been too much.

Personally I feel the film was well balanced but I have shot and butchered birds and animals to eat so maybe am more used to seeing death and butchering.

I wonder if we had seen a wild horse put in a crush and held down to be shot/injected with it rearing and damaging itself, we would have been as offended as the method shown?


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## Kate260881 (8 April 2009)

QR

OK, I've just watched this and thought it was an excellent program that showed all sides of their life.  It was truly touching how close they are to their horses.

As for the scene where the mare is killed, no its not very nice but given their circumstances and how remote they are I think they do it the humanest way they can.  And it wasn't actually graphic.  You didn't actually see them hitting the horses head and by that time it was practically unconcious.  Yes it was graphic afterwards where they were butchering it.... but it was already dead then.

I think a complaint to the BBC would be wholely inappropriate.  A really interesting and inciteful piece of TV that wasn't affraid to show all sides to a very different culture.

PS: is it sad that I thought it was really sweet when they were looking at the heads of the old horses that had been their favourites and the guy was saying that he doesn't miss them because they''re not really gone?


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## happyhack (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
You posted a comment under my user name saying you resented my comment therefore I am making the point that it wasn't addressed to you, as I am also entitled to do.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry but as your post was posted on a PUBLIC FORUM I am entitled to post a reply arent I? 

I just cannot understand why you are so up in arms about the programme and you havent even watched it!! Kinda baffles me!


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## Rollin (8 April 2009)

Why complain to the BBC if you feel strongly send a petition to the Embassy in London.

Do you buy NZ rugs made in China where they skin dogs alive, cage bears for their bile and support stallion fighting?


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## George1 (8 April 2009)

Well said spaniel. And as far as buying them a gun or showing them a better way to kill their animal, i think their way is a hell of a lot more humane than the way we kill horses for meat-line them up in pens in a totally alien environment and have them panic for however long while they hear the ones infront being shot. Also in this country there are plenty who get neglected before getting to this point. Personaly i think we should sort out our own problems before criticizing traditional methods of other countries. I thought the documentry was great, found it very hard to watch but i chose to watch it and would have been disapointed if i had been rapped up in cotten wool and just shown the carcas-then for all i would have known it could have been ten times worse.


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## Sooty (8 April 2009)

Just because something is traditional doesn't make it right, just as two wrongs don't make a right. There is indeed a lot to be said for putting our house in order, but that doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye to other countries' practices.


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## spaniel (8 April 2009)

I agree totally Sooty and thats one of the reasons Im really glad I didnt avert my eyes or give up altogether when it became apparent what was coming next.


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## Onyxia (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Im sorry its utterly ridiculous for anyone who didnt see this DOCUMENTARY to comment.

Lets get clinical....

WILD horse,  well fed and protected in return for producing meat foals.
After 4 barren years she is chosen as a meat horse.
She is corraled (and escapes once) re corraled and lassoed around the neck at great danger to those within the coral.
She is posted which results in her airway being cut off,  she does struggle but succumbs to unconsciousness.
She is priested (JUST AS THOUSANDS OF FISH ARE DAILY BY RECREATIONAL ANGLERS IN THE UK) and then has her heart stopped with a knife.

Its not nice but one heck of a lot quicker and safer than trying to kill her with a gun, a bolt or a slit to the throat all of which would be nigh on IMPOSSIBLE in a wild animal.

You may not like it but its the way it is.

Now if reality is not your thing - dont watch documentaries with warnings on them. 

[/ QUOTE ]
Well said!


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## Ginn (8 April 2009)

I have tried to bite my tongue on this but have to say that I am more apalled by the total ignorance shown in many of the posts relating to the program than anything I witnessed watching it! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Not sure I can add any more than what has been said by Spaniel (and some others). Fwiw I watched the whole thing start to end - while eating my tea - and remained glued to the tv throughout. I found it fascinating, educational and I wouldn't hesistate to watch another similar program. How people can turn around and say "we need to educate them" when they are to ignorant to be educated themselves on a totally different culture and way of life in extremely difficult conditions is beyond me - fgs, grow up!


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## dieseldog (8 April 2009)

It is possible to shoot wild animals safely.  Just look at Africa/USA and any other country that does game shooting - they can bring down deer that are bigger than a horse.  Might take a bit longer to get in the right position - but so much safer.

I still think that if they have a nce truck, satalite TV etc then they can afford a gun.  The way that they do it know is so dangerous to themselves, it would be very easy for one of them to get seriously injured - which would work out far more expensive than a gun and bullets.


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## Jiffy (8 April 2009)

I watched the programme and was disturbed by some of what I saw, but that's the way these people survive.

I certainly don't feel compelled to ring the beeb and complain on your behalf.  What would be the point of it?  If you don't like what you see or hear on TV, just switch the programme off.

I was fascinated to watch an interesting programme and think the programme makers should be praised for producing something out of the ordinary.  There are far too many run-of-the-mill repeats on the beeb these days and this was well filmed with good commentary.

Would you rather that they just hadn't shown the horse killing?  It would still go on whether you know about it or not.  Would you rather live ignorant to the facts about how these people live? Are You personally going to do something to stop these men from living their lives that way?  Are you going to send them a herd of cattle and tell them how they must kill them humanely instead of butchering ponies?

btw I also was lying in bed shuddering at the thought of those hooves being dropped into the pan to cook.


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## Ginn (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
No the death was not great, but compared to some of the slaughter house deaths that are on video, it was far more humane.  Prior to this the horse was well cared for, not travelled miles in terrible conditons and then penned up waiting to be shoved into a tight hole and then badly stunned and its throat cut as happens in some of the Mexican horror places. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets not forget that this is completely normal for much of the poultry etc that we eat too....


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## happyhack (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I have tried to bite my tongue on this but have to say that I am more apalled by the total ignorance shown in many of the posts relating to the program than anything I witnessed watching it! 
	
	
		
		
	


	





Not sure I can add any more than what has been said by Spaniel (and some others). Fwiw I watched the whole thing start to end - while eating my tea - and remained glued to the tv throughout. I found it fascinating, educational and I wouldn't hesistate to watch another similar program. How people can turn around and say "we need to educate them" when they are to ignorant to be educated themselves on a totally different culture and way of life in extremely difficult conditions is beyond me - fgs, grow up! 
	
	
		
		
	


	













[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you!! This is what I have been trying to say!!


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## RussianGirl (8 April 2009)

Short answer. No. Don't complain.
I have only managed to watch portions of the show, because I can't get it to stream properly, and a storm means my connection keeps dying. I am going to try to see the whole thing, buts it's difficult.

I live a few hours drive from the region, and have a Yakut pony. I have met men, similar to those shown, who spend most of the lives living out in the wilderness, looking after their horses, just because it is the only way for them to make money. I have not yet managed to sewe the 'death scene', but if the rest of the show is anything to go by, it is true to life, and true to the culture.

Having one English parent, and one Russian, I am pesonally more sickened by the treatment of English chickens and poultry, than foals, who, lets face it, might die in a brutal way, but live and die in a better way that those in other countries, who have to travel for days and cramped lorries with little food or water. Atleast, IMO, these horses are treated with love and respect.

Until you meet peole like this, and live in the harsh conditions, I don' think you can judge. How far would you go to make money and survive?


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## bailey14 (8 April 2009)

Sorry i didn't realise a post had already been entered about this in Latest News. I have put a post in New Lounge about this programme too. x


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## magic104 (8 April 2009)

If that was a lion cutting off his prey's airway in his bid to kill &amp; eat, no one would be shouting how cruel.  If that is thought of as cruel god help you lot if they ever repeat what happens to the dogs &amp; cats in some parts of Asia.  At least that mare was not boiled &amp; skinned alive.


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## bailey14 (8 April 2009)

that is what I think - I have put a post in New Lounge as I didn't realise there was one that had started in here.  There is no excuse to kill an animal so inhumanely.  I don't care what religion or background someone comes from, why should any animal be slowly strangled to the point of unconsciouness and then blungeoned around the head.  How can anyone, YES ANYONE, say this is a humane and dignified death.  They could have slit its throat or shot is just as easily.  Once it was on its knees gasping for breath it would have been so easy to go up to it and shoot in between the eyes or slit its throat.  What kind of world do we live in that people can say this is acceptable?????


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## RussianGirl (8 April 2009)

Can anyone tell me approx how far through the death is - It's taken me nearly two hours to view the first fifteen minutes!


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## stencilface (8 April 2009)

**Copied from my post in NL, didn't realise there was one here!! **

Yes I did.  Have to say I had to turn away, kind of a 'I don't want to watch but I want to be informed moment'.

I think it is very inappropriate for the BBC to show this, at anytime (let alone primetime).  With the amount of sick people in this country who seem to get enjoyment for animal suffering, and the amount of horse attacks each year, I think it was short sighted of them to show it.  

I am actually going to write a letter of complaint to them about it.  The way they 'put down' the mare was something that any couple of thugs could do imo, and wouldn't put it past sick people to try this (and think of all the gypsy ponies that are tied up ready for them 
	
	
		
		
	


	





For people who didn't see, they lassooed her, tied her to a pole, she ran around til no more rope left, virtually asphxiated herself, then they bashed her on the forehead three time with an axe and stabbed her in the heart.  Very brutal, and horrid to see an animal treated that way.  She even smashed through the fence the first time they attempted it. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I can see that this is part of their culture, but really think they need maybe some more enlightenment from another culture and can maybe adopt a new method - we do change the way we work with horses all the time in the UK after influence from abroad (not a good example, but Parelli is one).  I know that cows etc slaughtered in other cultures in Africa are killed with much less stress and violence


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## muddy boots (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Short answer. No. Don't complain.
I have only managed to watch portions of the show, because I can't get it to stream properly, and a storm means my connection keeps dying. I am going to try to see the whole thing, buts it's difficult.

I live a few hours drive from the region, and have a Yakut pony. I have met men, similar to those shown, who spend most of the lives living out in the wilderness, looking after their horses, just because it is the only way for them to make money. I have not yet managed to sewe the 'death scene', but if the rest of the show is anything to go by, it is true to life, and true to the culture.

Having one English parent, and one Russian, I am pesonally more sickened by the treatment of English chickens and poultry, than foals, who, lets face it, might die in a brutal way, but live and die in a better way that those in other countries, who have to travel for days and cramped lorries with little food or water. Atleast, IMO, these horses are treated with love and respect.

Until you meet peole like this, and live in the harsh conditions, I don' think you can judge. How far would you go to make money and survive? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for input
I watched and my god at times it was uncomfortable, but NOT needing a complaint. It was informative, and good to see the bond these men had with their riding horses. They were well cared for. The level of poverty and hardship was unbelievable. I do think quick deaths (not traps or the method used on the mare) would be better in an ideal world, but this is NOT Western Europe and I understand there are reasons for using these methods. It was about survival not entertainment - therefore can't be compared to bullfighting.
Well done to the presenter - I couldn't have done it.


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## happyhack (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Having one English parent, and one Russian, I am pesonally more sickened by the treatment of English chickens and poultry, than foals, who, lets face it, might die in a brutal way, but live and die in a better way that those in other countries, who have to travel for days and cramped lorries with little food or water. Atleast, IMO, these horses are treated with love and respect.

Until you meet peole like this, and live in the harsh conditions, I don' think you can judge. How far would you go to make money and survive? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for posting this.


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## bailey14 (8 April 2009)

Oh well thats all right then is it?????


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## M_G (8 April 2009)

How can you shoot something without a gun?


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## happyhack (8 April 2009)

its at about 45-50 mins i believe


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## bailey14 (8 April 2009)

"How can you shoot something without a gun?"

The answer is that you go out and buy one.  If they can afford to shoe and clothe themselves, drink vodka and pay for satelite, etc then they can afford a gun. I don't understand why people think having a gun and shooting a semi feral horse is more cruel then blungeoning something about the head after it has spent 2 1/2 minutes in agony slowly having its airway cut off.  If you wish to be a guineapig however ......??


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## happyhack (8 April 2009)

applecart

Please read the entire thread, there are some very informative posts about different methods of slaughter and the ways in which they are done in different cultures. Cutting the mares throat would have been slow and painful for the mare. A gun would probably be the better way, but as there was no explanation for this, I am assuming there is a legal issue or something like that.


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## RussianGirl (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
that is what I think - I have put a post in New Lounge as I didn't realise there was one that had started in here.  There is no excuse to kill an animal so inhumanely.  I don't care what religion or background someone comes from, why should any animal be slowly strangled to the point of unconsciouness and then blungeoned around the head.  How can anyone, YES ANYONE, say this is a humane and dignified death.  They could have slit its throat or shot is just as easily.  Once it was on its knees gasping for breath it would have been so easy to go up to it and shoot in between the eyes or slit its throat.  What kind of world do we live in that people can say this is acceptable????? 

[/ QUOTE ]

It may seem like a pathetic 'excuse' to ytou, and those who agree with you, but heres my view on it. It is far from perfect, really, I can agree with that. There may seem like quicker, more pain less ways to do it, but it is those mens livelihoods - guns mean bullets, which damage the flesh and the mean, meaning parts of the animal are unusable (I'm not sure what the regulations are, but there is some sort of rule about the metal contaninating meat, I'm not entirely sure though), going in straight away with the axe would mean the aim was bad as the horse would be running and jerking around, causing it more suffering what it hits the wrong part, leaving the animal to slowly bleed to death. Leathel injection would be too expensive for the herders to make any money, and also poision the flesh.
Can you think of any alternative that would allow the meat to still be sold, and make money for the poor men and their families?


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## lexiedhb (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Can't believe what I just saw .... was almost sick when they showed a mare  strangled / beaten to death and then skinned. Was it really necessary to show this in such graphic detail - even if a warning was given at the start of the programme. Please please ring up the BBC and log a complaint. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I will not be ringing the BBC up to log a complaint. It was a very informative documentary- yes the killing of the mare was brutal, and to our soft western eyes unpleasant......... but if I was a horse I would rather of had a lovely life with them in the snow and had it ended in that way, than be transported live across europe with god knows what injuries.........

I would also rather of been that horse than (some) european veal calf, a fois gras goose, a crated pig, a battery hen--- the list is actually endless

ETS- all this talk of guns........ ERM will a gun work at minus 35 degrees? me thinks probably not!


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## Abandluc (8 April 2009)

What good will a letter of complaint to the BBC do??? 
	
	
		
		
	


	




Like someone else said - if you are that bothered then write to the Embassy, but it won't change anything and fwiw I don't think they need to. 
Echo Spaniel about the gun argument, I reakon one of them would end up getting shot with a wild pony running round and them trying to 'aim' for the right place. Unless of course you are going to suggest they dart it with sedation first!!!

This is a way of life for these people and I think they actually care amazingly for these ponies and you can clearly see the love the men have got for them.

I thought it was an excellent documentary, which gave a suitable warning before it started. If you don't like it DON'T WATCH!!!!


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## ladyt25 (8 April 2009)

Well, I am sure the BBC will have received plenty of comments already and I expect they showed this programme fully aware it will receive a lot of response positive and negative.

Some peope obviously feel it's ok as it's their way of life, I would say fair enough but surely as a human race we're all about evolving so is it not possible that these men and their families could maybe learn of other ways to kill animals they need for survival?

I reiterate I did not watch it but seemingly these people had decent vehicles and satelite TV. They didn't have these 'traditionally' did they yet they do now. It's all about change isn't it and I don't see why they couldn't consider alternatives in their slaughtering methods as they have with other parts of their lives.


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## Sooty (8 April 2009)

What a shame you didn't continue to bite your tongue. I do not need to be told to grow up, and resent being told to so because my opinion differs from yours. Nor do I consider myself ignorant, thank you.


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## stencilface (8 April 2009)

I just think it shouldn't have been shown thats all.  I am all for us not pushing our western ideas on other cultures (or some such that others have been banging on about) but I think its entirely inappraopriate for them to show this.

Virtually no-one in Britain would have ever seen something like that before, but putting it on TV lets a much wider audience in on their culture. That bit is fine.

But I can't help worrying that this might have a knock on effect on maybe horse attacks in the UK - I certainly wouldn't want to find my horse tied to a pole with axe holes in its head when I go down to see it in the morning, just because some sick thug in the UK watched on documentary on it.

I am not really arguing the case for them not showing the whole documentary, just that I don't think some people need to watch things like that.  

Although I don't see why people want to 'save' these cultures and keep them in a little bubble, things change, yes they have been doing this for 100's of years, but I am pretty sure they didn't have sky TV then, or cars, so they can obviously adapt and change to some things, why not others.  

The point about cultures is that they change over time, they do not stay still.  Otherwise we would all still be living in caves and etaing mammoths now wouldn't we?


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## RussianGirl (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I just think it shouldn't have been shown thats all.  I am all for us not pushing our western ideas on other cultures (or some such that others have been banging on about) but I think its entirely inappraopriate for them to show this.

Virtually no-one in Britain would have ever seen something like that before, but putting it on TV lets a much wider audience in on their culture. That bit is fine.

But I can't help worrying that this might have a knock on effect on maybe horse attacks in the UK - I certainly wouldn't want to find my horse tied to a pole with axe holes in its head when I go down to see it in the morning, just because some sick thug in the UK watched on documentary on it.

I am not really arguing the case for them not showing the whole documentary, just that I don't think some people need to watch things like that.  

Although I don't see why people want to 'save' these cultures and keep them in a little bubble, things change, yes they have been doing this for 100's of years, but I am pretty sure they didn't have sky TV then, or cars, so they can obviously adapt and change to some things, why not others.  

The point about cultures is that they change over time, they do not stay still.  Otherwise we would all still be living in caves and etaing mammoths now wouldn't we? 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Cultures do change, they do evolve, but preserving them is improtant. Isn't their always controversy about wiping out British traditions, for example fox hunting and traditional farming methods, people are always trying to preserving things like using horses and carts to plow feilds etc- other people and cultures find hunting a brutal way to kill animals...

(That may not have come out as eloquent as I wished, my connection keeps dying, and when I get angry my englsih braindies =] )


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## bailey14 (8 April 2009)

I have been reading all the replies thanks.  And also the replies to the post that I set up in New Lounge (didn't realise at the time there was one here in Latest News).  Here is my reply to all the replies I got to my original post in New Lounge so you can see I have been keeping up:

"Thanks for your comments about this programme I enjoy a healthy debate. I too felt the programme was interesting and it was good to see how another country produced meat and lived the life they did. I wasn't against the principle of farming horses for meat, and would eat horse meat myself if I could be assured that it had been transported and slaughtered humanely. It was the actual slaughter that I thought was very inhumane and totally unaccpetable. I do watch reality type documentary programmes such as the Jamie Oliver food things, Kill It, Cook It, Eat it and have welcomed such programmes in the past as they give an accurate and clear view of what animal slaughter is all about. I also found Hugh's Chicken Run very interesting to watch. I find it is beneficial to see such programmes as it is hard to know where your meat comes from, how animals are slaughtered, etc without such programmes and at least one is able to make a uniformed choice. I just found that the slaughter of the mare last night was totally unnaceptable from an ethical and humane point of view. I agree that they chose the mare for a reason (she was not productive and obviously it is only right that the unproductive older animals are slaughtered in preference to horses that have a more productive life) but the way in which it was done and the stress that she went through before rendered unconcious was appalling. Nobody on this forum hand on heart can say that that was a humane and dignified death for any animal regardless of lifestyle choices. There is no reason why they couldn't have slit her throat or shot her (guns still work in minus 35 don't you know) - there is no excuse for that. They were not that poor, they could afford vodka and satellite and no doubt they got paid for the documentary that was made - that is no excuse. Thank you for all your comments which have obviously provoked an angry response in some of you, but we thankfully live in a world where freedom of speech is recognised and accepted as the norm. x ""


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## xspiralx (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Cutting the mares throat would have been slow and painful for the mare. A gun would probably be the better way, but as there was no explanation for this, I am assuming there is a legal issue or something like that. 

[/ QUOTE ]

In what way would cutting the mare's throat be a more "slow and painful" way to die than the method they used?

When you cut the jugular vein, it causes an instant and huge loss of blood, rendering the animal unconscious within seconds. Certainly a quicker and less painful and traumatic death than the one the mare actually received.


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## lucretia (8 April 2009)

Like oftern happens in these debates often the original points get lost in the debates afterwards. Personally, i have no problem with the rest of the the programme, nor with the way these people live nor with killing and eating horses.
   What i do have a problem with, and what i said to the BBC is that i didnt think that htere was any need to show the death of this animal in such graphic detail. Now i have watched the rest of it, as i explained i turned over late, I stil do not believe there was any need to show the whole scene. everyone knew whay was coming, showing the whole scene was just sensationalism dresses up as education. Anyone who wants to see a horse die badly can tune into youtube. 
  I think this whole series is going to reflect badly on horse people.


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## Ponyplanet (8 April 2009)

And was the point of the program was to highlight the brutality these animals suffer at the end of their lives? if so it did that.

I dont agree with the attitude "it happens so get over it", in the same way I am haunted by the visions of live animal skinning in China and i dont accept that either just because "it happens".


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## dieseldog (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
. 
Echo Spaniel about the gun argument, I reakon one of them would end up getting shot with a wild pony running round and them trying to 'aim' for the right place. Unless of course you are going to suggest they dart it with sedation first!!!



[/ QUOTE ]

That arguement doesn't work.  On my OH's farm in South Africa they shoot about 300 Springbok a year over a few days.  Springbok are just as nervous and shy as those horses, they've never managed to shoot each other yet.  If you are a proper marksman you get the right place.

As for contanimating meat.  As long as you don't nick the stomach, and if you do, you butcher the animal right away the meat is fine.


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## ladyt25 (8 April 2009)

xspiralx - I am glad you said that cos that would have been my thought but I freely admit I do not know the ins and outs of animal slaughter. But from previous posts on here I believed that cutting the jugular vein (if done properly) had this effect.


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## stencilface (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]

Cultures do change, they do evolve, but preserving them is improtant. Isn't their always controversy about wiping out British traditions, for example fox hunting and traditional farming methods, people are always trying to preserving things like using horses and carts to plow feilds etc- other people and cultures find hunting a brutal way to kill animals...

(That may not have come out as eloquent as I wished, my connection keeps dying, and when I get angry my englsih braindies =] ) 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, so keep the farming and the lifestyle, but change the method of actually killing the animal, or just don't show it in the first place


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## bailey14 (8 April 2009)

I know I actually laughed out loud when I read that slitting the mares throat would be a far more painful death.  Sat in the middle of an open plan office too - how funny.  Wish we could say the same about the subject matter.


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## RussianGirl (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I know I actually laughed out loud when I read that slitting the mares throat would be a far more painful death.  Sat in the middle of an open plan office too - how funny.  Wish we could say the same about the subject matter. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe not more apinful - but how on earth do you suppose slitting the mares throat would happen.
A semi ferral mare is just going to wander over, puts it;s head down, nice and still, and not fight while you try to locate the correct spot, and stab it in the neck?
I some how don't think its going to happen quite like that


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## Sooty (8 April 2009)

Well quite. Kosher slaughter (and Halal for that matter) was devised precisely because loss of consciousness is pretty well instantaneous. I am surprised that so many people support such a brutal ending to a life, and the rather strange arguments put up. Put your money where your mouth is, and if you think it is okay to slaughter a horse in this way, have your own one done the same when the time comes.


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## Sooty (8 April 2009)

Well having semi-strangled it, surely slitting its throat would be more humane than taking an axe to its head? It was clearly conscious after the first strike.


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## ladyt25 (8 April 2009)

Fox hunting as a tradition was for sport more than necessity although was to help the farmer in protecting the livestock. It is not necessary for our survival - ie we do not eat foxes or need to feed them to any of our animals that we do use for meat and I don't believe they have a huge impact in respect of livestock losses. I suspect more foxes are killed by cars than by hunts. I don't think you can use it as a comparative and if the 'tradition' dies out is there any real loss?

I don't think there is an argument that the people in the programme need the horses for survival, the suggestion is that maybe their methods of slaughter need reassessing.


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## happyhack (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
 Slitting the throat would take too long and it is probably difficult to get through the thick coat and skin (incidently, it was noted earlier in the programme that their skin &amp; fur is very thick). 



[/ QUOTE ] 

quoted from a post further up


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## stencilface (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Well quite. Kosher slaughter (and Halal for that matter) was devised precisely because loss of consciousness is pretty well instantaneous. I am surprised that so many people support such a brutal ending to a life, and the rather strange arguments put up. Put your money where your mouth is, and if you think it is okay to slaughter a horse in this way, have your own one done the same when the time comes. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said sooty


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## lucretia (8 April 2009)

well said sooty, i love you!


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## RussianGirl (8 April 2009)

I am not saying that the methods are painless or perfect; but can anyone think of a feasable method, that would not damage the herders income or livelihood? 
I disagree wholely with peole saying that people should not being carrying on this way of life, and that people should not be taught about it. It's positive to educate people about different cultures and ways of life, and until you try to live in such a way, I feel it is impossible to judge the way tht people have to live.


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## lexiedhb (8 April 2009)

"(guns still work in minus 35 don't you know)"


erm how do you know??????????- often in a situation at minus 35 degrees where you need to shoot something are you?


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## RussianGirl (8 April 2009)

I have been trying to resist the urge to pull the 'I live there, I know' card, but truthfully, how many of you have tried to live and work in such conditions?

Also, guns do not function consistantly in such temps' so days they do, some days they don't. That's why there are fewer methods for euthanaisia...


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## ladyt25 (8 April 2009)

I can't really see how the horse's skin and fur is that much thicker than that of other horses to be honest. If the people were skilled enough I am sure slitting the horse's throat would be quicker and less distressing for the animal.


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## xspiralx (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
 [ QUOTE ]
 Slitting the throat would take too long and it is probably difficult to get through the thick coat and skin (incidently, it was noted earlier in the programme that their skin &amp; fur is very thick). 



[/ QUOTE ] 

quoted from a post further up 

[/ QUOTE ]

Well clearly that isn't true because they manage to stab the horse [through the hair and skin and muscle] in the heart don't they? The throat area would be much softer and easier to penetrate.

Obviously there is still the issue of how to secure the animal before doing so - but whether by strangulation or through lassooing/tripping the animal to get it lying down, there are certainly methods available.


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## RussianGirl (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I can't really see how the horse's skin and fur is that much thicker than that other horses' to be honest. If the people were skilled enough I am sure slitting the horse's throat would be quicker and less distressing for the animal. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Primary school science - biology - adaptations in plant and animals


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## stencilface (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't really see how the horse's skin and fur is that much thicker than that other horses' to be honest. If the people were skilled enough I am sure slitting the horse's throat would be quicker and less distressing for the animal. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Primary school science - biology - adaptations in plant and animals 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

But they manage to skin the animal just fine with their knives, so why not slit its throat?  Surely they can sharpen their knives?


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## RussianGirl (8 April 2009)

Sureface area means its far easier to use a stabbing motion with a smaller blunt object, than to quickly and easily slit through sinew and muscle. 

I wish I could remember the formula for pressure and force, allas, I never paid that much attention in physics or maths!


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## nuffield (8 April 2009)

I thought the programe was excellent. a captive bolt would have been better , if it didnt jam in the cold. Those people live in harmony with nature and are much better horse opeople than a lot of westerners IMO at least they dont truck their horses miles in lorries to slaughter.


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## RussianGirl (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't really see how the horse's skin and fur is that much thicker than that other horses' to be honest. If the people were skilled enough I am sure slitting the horse's throat would be quicker and less distressing for the animal. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Primary school science - biology - adaptations in plant and animals 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

But they manage to skin the animal just fine with their knives, so why not slit its throat?  Surely they can sharpen their knives? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a fair point really, but it still begs the question of how to restain the animal, quickly and painlessly, in a way that allows access to the areas needed.


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## xspiralx (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Sureface area means its far easier to use a stabbing motion with a smaller blunt object, than to quickly and easily slit through sinew and muscle. 

I wish I could remember the formula for pressure and force, allas, I never paid that much attention in physics or maths!  
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I don't buy it. As someone has said, they can easily skin the carcasses and slice the bones, and have knives sharp and strong enough to penetrate through the skin to stab the heart. I don't believe that it is impossible for them to have knives strong and sharp enough to effectively cut an animal's throat. Even if their skin is thicker, its not rhino hide.


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## lucretia (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
 [ QUOTE ]
 Slitting the throat would take too long and it is probably difficult to get through the thick coat and skin (incidently, it was noted earlier in the programme that their skin &amp; fur is very thick). 



[/ QUOTE ] 

quoted from a post further up 

[/ QUOTE ]

Well clearly that isn't true because they manage to stab the horse [through the hair and skin and muscle] in the heart don't they? The throat area would be much softer and easier to penetrate.

Obviously there is still the issue of how to secure the animal before doing so - but whether by strangulation or through lassooing/tripping the animal to get it lying down, there are certainly methods available. 

[/ QUOTE ]

indeed and when stabbing said animal through the heart  they are precise enough to not only get knife through the fur and muscles but cunning avoid hitting a rib, lung or the sternum instead (depending where you stab from).


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## ladyt25 (8 April 2009)

Yes the general skin/fur may be tougher to cope with the elements but the skin around the jugular is in general softer as far as I am aware. I would imagine pigs and cows have pretty tough skin but they manage to kill them in this manner.

A lion/tiger brings down an animal - this is what these people did isn't it? One lion will grab the prey, zebra/buffalo etc buy the throat and will suffocate it - another will often also grasp the nose of the animal. In reality the men could do similar OR once they had the animal down i still do not see how / why they could not either slit it's throat (I am sure they would be able to get big enough and sharp enough knives).


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## RussianGirl (8 April 2009)

At the risk of repeating myself and several others; surely the point here is that though the method is far from perfect - though maybe not all herders do it in the same way, there are regional variations - how would you propose to do it.

To slit it's throat you are going to have to restrain the horse in some manner. These are semi wild animals, who are going to struggle against any bounds, causing ropes to tighten around necks, causing asphyxiation. If you tie its legs and trip the horse, it's mouth is going to be free to bite and savage while the herders try to kill the animal.

It's a case of trying to find the balance - do you behave in a manner that is slightly more drawn out, but has the animal fully restrained and unable to cause itsrelf, other animals or people any harm, or do you allow it to savage and bite and kick while you attempt to kill it?

I do not fully condone the manner in which these horses are killed, and it's not particually pleasant to watch, but how else are these people going to earn enough money to live?

I need to leave in a minute, but I am finding this whole debate thrilling, and I enjoy seeing the range of views on the subject. On the whole, I think that it is comendable that the majority of people sharing thier views have done so in an eloquent manner.

x Tanya.


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## Amymay (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I am not saying that the methods are painless or perfect; but can anyone think of a feasable method, that would not damage the herders income or livelihood?   

[/ QUOTE ] 
Yes, it's called a gun.

And there are makes of gun that will work in these sub zero tempartures.


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## supersally (8 April 2009)

Well said Magic 104 I saw a lioness suffocating a zebra foal on TV a few weeks ago &amp; no-one complains about that. I didn't watch the mare being slaughtered (Shut my eyes until it was over) but the rest of the programme was brilliant. This is how these people live which was the whole point of the programme.


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## Horseantics (8 April 2009)

i watched this programme and made myself watch the killing, yes i was very upset, I am a horse lover but what happended to a horse in this country was far worse www.maggieslaw.co.uk, there are only 5561 signatures on the petition to increase sentencing for"people" who do this for fun! How many horse owners are there in the UK? Please go to the petition site and sign 
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Maggies-Law/
If you are going to complain to the BBC then please also sign the petition, it finishes on the 29th April.
This programme was about  way of life for these people, I wish they had a more humane way of killing them.


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## lucretia (8 April 2009)

the difference is that the lion doesnt have a choice about te way it kills its prey. Humans, aleegedly more intelligent, do.


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## Amymay (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
Well said Magic 104 I saw a lioness suffocating a zebra foal on TV a few weeks ago &amp; no-one complains about that.   

[/ QUOTE ] 
Is this really a sensible comparison though?  

Probably not..........


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## Tiffany (8 April 2009)

I watched it and had to turn away in parts and found the way they killed that poor mare very upsetting and barbaric  
	
	
		
		
	


	




 However, that is how those people live and apparently it's the only way they know. Rather than complaining it would be more useful if someone taught them a more humane way of ending a horse's life. At best complaining would just stop such horrific slaughter being televised not stop it happening


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## flyingfeet (8 April 2009)

Well apparently the BBC should censor TV so that we don't have to face the real world. Whilst I can see its upsetting, I wouldn't stop them showing items like this, in fact I wish they'd show more on slaughter houses so people would stop buying £2 chicken and other cheap meat. 

I am actually wondering if there is a good reason for not bleeding to death - i.e. huge puddle of blood and a pack of wolves nearby. Or by not bleeding it stops the meat from freezing before they can finish butchering the horse. 

I also think with wolves around they'd want a gun if they could have access to them (pretty sure I would!!!), I suspect the Russian government is stopping this as they were quite peeved at being part of the Soviet Union....


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## DAHH (8 April 2009)

I found it an utterly fascinating programme. A realistic, non-judgemental view of life in an environment completely alien to us all. Certainly the killing of the mare was not nice, however there was plenty of warning at the begining of the programme and by Alexandra Tolstoy in the run up to the scene. 
It was the most compelling programme I have watched in a long time. Congratulations to the BBC for making a first rate documentary.


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## Tinypony (8 April 2009)

I was struck by the respect that they had for their horses.  Doesn't anyone think that they've probably had a lot of time over the years to work out the safest and quickest way to kill them?


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## Over2You (8 April 2009)

Absolutely shocked and appalled by the reactions of all these "horse lovers" here. The slaughter of those horses out there is barbaric and totally inhumane. How you justify it by saying it is their culture is beyond belief. There is NO excuse for any animal to die such a horrific death. I do have respect for other cultures, but not when it comes to such brutality. And how can you say the animals are respected and well cared for. Keeping almost wild horses penned up and killing their companions and babies in front of them does not constitute as caring or respectful in my books. Surely to goodness, they could tame them, so they could get close enough to deliver a quick and painless shot to the head. Welfare organisations could supply them with captive bolts or the type of gun vets use. Then educate them in marksmanship. I once watched an animal rescue programme (I think RSPCA: On the Front Line) and they had to dispatch of a deer with a badly broken leg. The RSPCA were unable to catch the animal themselves, so they brought in a deerstalker. He manged from over 50 metres away, to deliver a swift and clean bullet to the heart. This was when the animal was in a total state of panic, much like that poor mare. 

The only thing I learned from this horrid programme was how to kill and butcher a horse. The BBC shall be receiving one more complaint.


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## eahotson (8 April 2009)

Well over 2000 years ago Jewish kosher law, and following that, Halal, slaughtering law, very similar, were bought in to address this matter of humane slaughter. ONE cut only to the carotid artery is allowed.OVER 2000 years ago.If they could do it, why can't others.?


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## nicnag (8 April 2009)

I'd promised myself I wasn't going to get involved but heres by tuppence worth -

When working with any animal which is semi feral you have to consider your own safety as well as that of the animals welfare. As woeisme said, these people have had generations of experience in the slaughter of their horses and I'm sure this will be their tried and tested method. Meowkiss has pointed out that shooting from a distance can lead to a huge amount of damage to a carcass and if that is part of their living they will want to maximise the amount they get back. It wasn't pretty watching, but this is a different culture to our own, they would probably view our methods as barbaric. Captive bolt isn't always the quick method a lot of people think it is, get it in the slightest wrong place and it doesn't work. The axe wasn't the most sophisticated method but I'd be pretty sure it did the job more accurately than some things I've seen.


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## pinktiger (8 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
, these people have had generations of experience in the slaughter of their horses and I'm sure this will be their tried and tested method. Meowkiss has pointed out that shooting from a distance can lead to a huge amount of damage to a carcass and if that is part of their living they will want to maximise the amount they get back. It wasn't pretty watching, but this is a different culture to our own, they would probably view our methods as barbaric. Captive bolt isn't always the quick method a lot of people think it is, get it in the slightest wrong place and it doesn't work. The axe wasn't the most sophisticated method but I'd be pretty sure it did the job more accurately than some things I've seen. 

[/ QUOTE ]



o come on strangulation, cracking the head with an axe 3 times and then stabbing in the heart is their best method, not to mention your point of not wrecking the skin ect!!!  PLEASE!!!!  
as has been said hunting in africa (bazillions of hecters) (these guys have a tiny corral in comparrison) or anywhere else of ferral animals is done with rifles/guns, and done without the suffering that was shown in this programme, it was far from instant!!!!


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## frannieuk (8 April 2009)

(QR)

Just a point to the OP - are you asking us to complain to the BBC for showing the documentary, or because you don't agree with the slaughtering techniques and cultures depicted?

WRT to the BBC showing it, my opinion (FWIW) is that if this is going on, then we should be able to educate ourselves about it, and also IMO, there were more than adequate warnings about the content prior to the start.

WRT to the topic, personally I feel that those horses have the closest thing to a "wild" life as could be found, and probably experience a less traumatic death than they would otherwise suffer from starvation or wolf attack. As someone who has been brought up in a fairly "sterile" culture I find it hard to watch these scenes, but I'm glad I did - life is hard and it makes me appreciate the fact that I can give my horse the luxury of a painless death when the time comes.


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## lucretia (8 April 2009)

I will be interested to see how many will defend the Spanish culture after they see the bull fighting thing next week........ I seem to recall the last time there was such a debate on here (when I posted the merlin video from you tube) there werent many.


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## lucretia (8 April 2009)

I thought i was pretty clear about what i have complained about, which was the reason why they felt they had to show quite as much as they did of the horse's dispatch. I think seeing the carcass being skinned and dismembered would have been quite a big enough dose of reality, but maybe that is because i grew up in an age where every thing wasnt dumbed down and you were required to use both your imagination and reasoning to work out what was not actually shown. 
  I am afaid to say i didnt need to see the brutal killing of that horse to know the lives of these people are tough. I am quite surprised other people did.


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## Tinypony (8 April 2009)

Whatever the rights and wrongs, why are people complaining to the BBC?  Shouldn't those who are shocked be grateful that the BBC have brought the situation to their attention?  What is wrong with showing a factual documentary about someone else's way of life?
I think you are shooting the messenger.  You could write to the government of the country maybe.  Or if you think that welfare agencies could help - write to them.  Work out how they are going to find the funding to go over and change things though, it will be a costly exercise.
I don't know how true this is, but it makes sense to me.  On another forum a poster who knows about living in ultra low temperatures is saying that a gun is not an option.  She says they become dangerous to use as the heat of the bullet passing through the very cold chamber can cause the metal to fracture.


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## nicnag (8 April 2009)

Perhaps not the best method in your opinion - but as I already said this is a different culture with different values. I do a lot of work in slaughter houses and I can tell you bad things happen with other methods so yes - in their culture this probably is the best method they have.


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## Tinypony (8 April 2009)

By the way, calling people "horse lovers" like that is just insulting everyone.  I love my horses to death, and have made huge sacrifices in the past to keep them.  That doesn't stop me being able to understand that other cultures may view their relationship with horses differently to the way I do.  I don't eat my horses for a start, but then neither do I cut their heads off to keep in an ancestral tree and visit it with respect.
I think you need to understand the reasons behind anything like this before you know how to bring about change.  Respectfully, I suggest that there wasn't enough information in this documentary to fully understand the situation.  It bears more investigation before condeming the people who survive in these inhospitable places.


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## lucretia (8 April 2009)

as i keep repeating (hopefully it will start to sink in eventually) I have no objectio to the subject, oh the whole it was educational but there was no need to show such a brutal and distresssing scene in its entirety particualrly when the trailers and promotional material pertaining to this broadcast gave no hint that it would be anything other than a 'jolly pony story' type programme. it was easy to miss the opening warning (according to several people hardly adequate) and that was another thing i complained about. Those things are the responsibility of the broadcaster arent they.


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## muddy boots (8 April 2009)

We may not understand or agree with the lifestyle, but I don't think we should complain. I wouldn't like to live in a fluffy censored world where the broadcasters were afraid to show us the real world.


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## Tinypony (8 April 2009)

The thing is Lucretia, you aren't the only person being responded to on this thread.  Maybe your points have "sunk in" but there is more being discussed that what you have said.
Whatever was in trailers, it was patently obvious that the scene of slaughter was going to be tough viewing, we had plenty of warning from the presenter.
I was responding mainly to the post by Over2you.


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## hellybelly6 (8 April 2009)

I do not have a problem with people eating horse meat.  These horses were obviously well looked after and have a great life.  What got to me was that in the 21st centuary an animal is still hacked to death.  I appreciate it is a different culture etc, but surely there is an alternative.

After all these people have satelite TV and a diesel powered generator and are surrounded by wolves.

Eating all this meat surely must be making those men constipated.  It is a diet high in fat and protein, but with little fibre.  Not to mention the lack of vitamin C.  Am I the only person who has considered this?


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## Elle1085 (8 April 2009)

It was upsetting to watch and i wish i hadn't and i missed the warning but the one i saw on bbci *contains upsetting scenes* could have referred to the hares legs being snapped or the frozen wolves. Seeing a terrified horse being strangled and beaten to death was imo unnecessary but then it would still happen whether we saw or not


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## Donkeymad (8 April 2009)

QR

Unlike this thread, I viewed the entire programme. These people live in a very primitive and difficult place. they clearly love and care for their horses, and rely on them for their livilihood. The death of the mare was not the most pleasant, but could have been so very much worse. She barely knew what was happening by the time she was bludgeoned, and then had her heart stabbed.
I think the BBC gave a very balanced view, leaving the most graphic details to the imagination.
This was by far the best BBC programme I have seen in a very long time, and would not dream of complaining about it.


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## bailey14 (8 April 2009)

Idon't quite understand what you are saying about people supporting such a brutal end to a life - what by slitting an animals throat?? Sureley this is preferred to half aphysixating an animal and clubbing it around the head with an axe?  Can't really see what point your trying to make to be honest.  I have lost four horses in the most tragic of circumstances and to be honest find your words quite upsetting.  I was merely pointing out the difference between the two slaughterr methods.  Of course I wouldn't want that for my horse, or for any horse but it would be the best scenario for these poor horses in the circumstances they find themselves in.  I won't myself eat halal meat because of the way its butchered.   I had an ex boyfriend who worked for four years as a slaughter man in ireland and came over to birmiingham to live where he was employed at a halal meat factory in the centre of Birmingham City Centre.  He lasted a week and the stories he told me made my toes curl.  He had nothing to gain by telling me this, I have no doubt he was telling the truth.  He was in tears telling me how they slaughtered the animals.  In principle whenever I go for a balti (Birmingham being the Balti capital of the UK) I refuse to eat the meat and always have a mushroom balti. I have never forgotten his words.  However if I thought that my lovely leg of lamb that I had for Sunday lunch had come from a lamb that had been half strangled and blungeoned with an axe to kill it I wouldn't eat that either.


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## bailey14 (8 April 2009)

Your missing the point.  At the point when the mare was aphyixiated (which you will have noticed if you had watched up to that point, which unfortunately I did) you will have seen that she had stopped struggling (presumably as her brain was starving from oxygen, hence no more fighting).  They could have done it then.  There is no excuse ever, ever, ever for blungeoning an animal over the head with an axe and I am suprised that so many people on this site believe there is.


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## bailey14 (8 April 2009)

Over2You you have my deepest respect. I could not have put your point more eloquently or thoughtfully (I have been trying all day but without much luck).  I am totally gobsmacked by the reactions of some of these people on the forum too.  I know I said earlier in one of my posts that thank god in this country we have the right to freedom of speech but sometimes I wonder if it is all worth it!  I wish there were more people like you who are epathic and human, as the world would be a better place.  God bless you for having the courage to air your viewpoint in the face of such adverse reactions from some people on this forum today. x


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## bailey14 (8 April 2009)

How in Gods name could her death of been any worse.  Do tell me.  I suppose they could have cut her into pieces whilst alive, or thrown her in a big cooking pot and boiled her to death, or maybe run over her with a lorry but other than that I am totally at a loss as to how you have drawn this bizarre conclusion.  Your comment "she barely knew what was happening to her by the time she was blungeoned" is beyond belief!!!!  Of course she knew what was happening to her.  In our country when we used to be a sensible nation that had the death penalty, and felons were hung the whole reason why the 'drop' was introduced was to snap someones neck instantly thus causing instant death.  Before that people used to slowly strangle on the end of a rope and the fortunate felons were classed as the ones that could pay friends or persuade familly to jump up and down whilst hanging off their feet so they would die a quicker and more humane death.  Thank god we live in a civilised society.


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## Tinypony (8 April 2009)

Even if you missed the warning at the start of the programme, there was plenty of notice that the scene with the mare was going to be upsetting and she was going to be killed.  I watched the whole programme, and had a couple of minutes deciding whether or not I'd watch the actual slaughter while the presenter was watching the mare run about and starting to look tearful about it.  You could even have turned over at the point were she was initially tied to the post.  If you watched the actual killing surely it was by choice.
I wish someone would answer my question about what exactly is supposed to be acheived to change this practise by complaining to the BBC.  It's OK to run others down for not being "empathic and human" and all the other things that have been said.  What are you going to do to change it?  I doubt the BBC is the place to start.


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## bailey14 (8 April 2009)

a) if you'd bothered to read my previous post I stated that I did not watch the slaughter as I could see where it was going and the sound and sight of that mare slowly being strangled to death was more than I could bear (my partner told me what had happened and spared me the misery of watching it myself) b) I did not say I was going to complain to the BBC at all and c) yes, I absolutely wholeheartedly stand by what I said about people being humane and empathic and finally d) I didnot put my post on here with a view to doing anything about it, as I stated previously (if you'd bothered to read my post) that I was asking if anyone had seen the programme and what their views were.  It all goes back to the same old thing, time and time again, people view points.


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## Tinypony (8 April 2009)

It's not all about your comments, people tend to pick up on points they have read in the last few posts. ie
 [ QUOTE ]
  It was upsetting to watch and i wish i hadn't and i missed the warning but the one i saw on bbci *contains upsetting scenes* could have referred to the hares legs being snapped or the frozen wolves. Seeing a terrified horse being strangled and beaten to death was imo unnecessary but then it would still happen whether we saw or not 

[/ QUOTE ]
And this isn't the first time I asked the question about complaining to the BBC - if you bothered to read my previous posts.   
	
	
		
		
	


	




  So again, I'm not responding to you directly, but to some of the main themes in this thread.


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## Sooty (9 April 2009)

Eh? What words? 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I think you may be confusing me with someone else if you think I am supporting this slaughter method.


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## BayJosie (9 April 2009)

Right.

Well I didn't think it was right for me to comment on this thread or on the programme until I had watched it. I have read every single comment in this thread, and whilst I can understand that as horse lovers we may have found their methods not to our own standards or taste I really wasn't that offended by it. I love my own horse more than anything I can describe to you, but the way these people live is completely different to anything we have or will ever experience or understand
You can live in a lala land and cover your ears all you want, but this is life, It may not be the life you chose to lead but it is the life of others and you must respect that whether you agree with it or not.


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## Beanyowner (9 April 2009)

If you read the programme description on teletext, Sky or in magazines they all mentioned 'upsetting scenes'...you don't expect it all to be sweetness and light do you??


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## Tenzing (9 April 2009)

An article on the BBC site says there have been 100 complaints regarding the slaughter of the horse.

There were a million viewers.

So about 0.01% complained.

TheaL - did you ever get round to complaining?

Looks like common sense prevailed.


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## Beanyowner (9 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]


Looks like common sense prevailed. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks goodness!!


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## bailey14 (9 April 2009)

Sooty I apologise.  I thought your comments about having my own horse put down was your response to my comments about the halal method of slitting its throat.  some confusion there then, and apologies one again. x


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## Robyn0288 (9 April 2009)

The slaughter was horrific I agree 100% but the horses had a good life, I dont know how old the mare was but if she hadnt foaled for four years she must have been a reasonable age, and the slaughter was around 10 minutes of that life.

surely when looking at animal welfare you should look at the bigger picture- I have worked in abattoirs and I found the actual killing as humane as possible, but the animals life before it was farmed was probably pretty horrible- not just pigs and chickens but also cattle, especially dairy cows. Overall i thought the life of the horse was much better than most of the farming systems over here.

I dont know if there are other methods of slaughter that would be more suitable but they have probably thought of using a gun. I did wonder why they didnt cut the throat but I do think there is a reason for it, as they clearly loved their horses and wernt watching it suffer because they got a kick out of it!


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## Tinypony (9 April 2009)

I can't help feeling that if cutting the throat was a better option that would be what they'd do.  They had so much respect for the horses and weren't setting out to cause the mare pain and anguish, just to get the job done as efficiently as they could.


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## slingo1uk (9 April 2009)

I too have read every thread on here and have watched the programme before commenting, I found it disturbing to see the poor mare killed in such a way , she knew what was coming however I am glad the BBC have shown this programme , now we have been educated on their way of life maybe someone can educate these people on how to shoot a gun.


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## rosie fronfelen (9 April 2009)

as much as it was horrendous to watch,(i had to walk away) these are a people on the other side of the world with a different culture and a totally alien (to us) way of life. to even consider teaching them "more humane"ways of killing is very naive. i don't think it was an appropriate programme for the BBC to broadcast at that time of night however, especially as there are excellent programmes on far later, but that seems to be the BBC's way these days, anything to "shock"!!


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## Sooty (9 April 2009)

No need to apologise; I just didn't know what I had said that had upset you! 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 I certainly think there has to be a better way of slaughtering than the one in the programme, and it would appear from a reply to my email to WHW that they agree. However, I think everyone also agrees that there is bugger all we can do about it.


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## Donkeymad (9 April 2009)

As said by another poster, by the time they started bludgeoning her, she was barely conscious.
I have not said this method is right, but it could be worse, and I stick by that.

By the way, apparently these people think we are cruel to our horses, by keeping them stabled and such luck. They have a point.


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## joshesmum (9 April 2009)

All i can say is im glad i missed it!


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## Erehwemos (9 April 2009)

I am just wondering - obviously the mare was killed by the strangulation/blows to the head/dagger in heart method - but I wonder if this is the way they kill the foals and, more to the point, their tame riding horses (such as the one who they 'loved' so much they had kept his skull in the tree). I wonder whether he too will have been roped down and axed in the head...or whether it is a method used only for the wild ponies? 
It seems inconceivable that a tame horse could be killed in the same way


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## pinktiger (9 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I am just wondering - obviously the mare was killed by the strangulation/blows to the head/dagger in heart method - but I wonder if this is the way they kill the foals and, more to the point, their tame riding horses (such as the one who they 'loved' so much they had kept his skull in the tree). I wonder whether he too will have been roped down and axed in the head...or whether it is a method used only for the wild ponies? 
It seems inconceivable that a tame horse could be killed in the same way 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]



v good point, 

 but, as you see in an upper post, 'were cruel for keeping horses in a stable', the logic of some people's arguments are just unreal 
	
	
		
		
	


	








!!!


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## slingo1uk (9 April 2009)

I dont think teaching and demonstrating a more humane way of killing an animal is being" Naive" at all, surely if they love their horses they would rather dispatch them in an instant with no knowledge of what they were about to endure.

People can learn , improve and move on and bollocks to traditional inhumane practices.


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## suzysparkle (9 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am just wondering - obviously the mare was killed by the strangulation/blows to the head/dagger in heart method - but I wonder if this is the way they kill the foals and, more to the point, their tame riding horses (such as the one who they 'loved' so much they had kept his skull in the tree). I wonder whether he too will have been roped down and axed in the head...or whether it is a method used only for the wild ponies? 
It seems inconceivable that a tame horse could be killed in the same way 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]



v good point, 

 but, as you see in an upper post, 'were cruel for keeping horses in a stable', the logic of some people's arguments are just unreal 
	
	
		
		
	


	








!!! 

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the thing though, they probably think our logic is flawed. Who is to say who is actually correct. Their Horses certainly experience a far more natural life than a stabled Horse over here does. I bet none of them had stress related vices like cribbing or weaving. I remember reading somewhere (it was to do with interrogation) that people and animals can cope better with physical rather than mental torture. Please note I am not saying stabling is mental torture so don't take it like that anyone!! 

I strongly suspect that there is a reason they don't slit the throat. There was hardly any blood and maybe it's to do with that. Attracts less Wolves perhaps? I remember them saying that they had to butcher very quickly before the body froze. 

One thing I wish that had been asked of the Horsemen is why they used that method to kill the Horse. Perhaps it would have put things into perspective a bit more. I would also ask why they trap wolves instead of shoot them. I hate the thought of trapping as the animal must be in so much distress for some time.  Those men respected their animals so much that I honestly don't believe they have the means to a more humane method, otherwise they would surely use it. Does anyone know if they are actually allowed guns there??


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## Elle1085 (9 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
It's not all about your comments, people tend to pick up on points they have read in the last few posts. ie
 [ QUOTE ]
  It was upsetting to watch and i wish i hadn't and i missed the warning but the one i saw on bbci *contains upsetting scenes* could have referred to the hares legs being snapped or the frozen wolves. Seeing a terrified horse being strangled and beaten to death was imo unnecessary but then it would still happen whether we saw or not 

[/ QUOTE ]
And this isn't the first time I asked the question about complaining to the BBC - if you bothered to read my previous posts.   
	
	
		
		
	


	




  So again, I'm not responding to you directly, but to some of the main themes in this thread. 

[/ QUOTE ]

When i said i wished i hadn't watched it i meant because i would rather not have known and remained blissfully ignorant, but i am aware it was my own choice to watch it


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## rosie fronfelen (9 April 2009)

i meant that to try and teach them on more humane ways of killing is naive, as i said, they are in a different world from us and we have to respect their ways, as awful as they are!!! the wrong thing was to screen this programme in the first place, unnecessary and provoking anger, also i do think that the television culture is alot to blame for everyday crimes, torture and the like- how soon will it be before there some horror story in H.H. about a copycat killing in this country? makes you wonder-


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## chestnut cob (9 April 2009)

I've just watched the programme (recorded it) and read most of the thread...

I think it was a very well made and informative piece of television.  The mare was barely conscious when she was hit although I will confess I found the scenes of her trying to run away before they caught her quite upsetting.  However, you have to remember that although these people clearly have a lot of love and respect for their horses, to them they are a living.  They are treated better than we often treat cattle here in the UK and to them they are just that.  The mare had no worth to them because she was old and couldn't produce foals any longer so why keep her alive when it is so difficult to survive anyway in that environment?  The killing was not for fun or pleasure, they ate the meat and I imagine will use the pelt/fur as well.

I applaud the BBC for a very well made documentary.  Don't complain - it was an informative and interesting programme.  I would rather my licence fee was spent on things like this than rubbish like Eastenders, Escape to the Country, To Buy or Not to Buy etc...


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## SirenaXVI (11 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
TheaL, I am quite shocked you would complain about a programme you admit having watched for only 3 minutes.  Talk about a knee jerk reaction.  

If you had watched more of the programme, you would have seen the presenter extremely distressed by the slaughter method.  It was in no way suggested that this was a good or acceptable method of horse slaughter.  Nonetheless, it is a method that has been used for centuries and continues to this day.  

You can put your fingers in your ears and go 'la la la' or you can try and learn a bit more about other people's way of living and THEN make a judgement.  Please don't try and prevent intellegent, if disturbing, programmes being broadcast for the rest of us.
A 

[/ QUOTE ]

round of applause - I could not have put it better myself


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## foxviewstud (11 April 2009)

sorry but i thought the program was brilliant, yes the killing was horrible but that horse had a better life and possibly a better death than some horses in this country!!!!!!!!they only killed animals for food or to protect their horses that they had huge respect for, this country may have moved forward with slaughter but this is not always possible for other countrys!!!!!


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## PapaFrita (12 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
You posted a comment under my user name saying you resented my comment therefore I am making the point that it wasn't addressed to you, as I am also entitled to do.

[/ QUOTE ]
How interesting; so you are entitled to express your opinion on an open forum and are simultaneously denying someone else the right to comment on your post? 
It's not like you're having a private conversation here, you know.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you need to take a chill pill, I'm not gonna carry on this silliness. 

[/ QUOTE ]
Chill pill for yourself perhaps?


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## Fizzimyst (12 April 2009)

QR

Why on earth would you complain? This is life! it was a factual program! Goodness me, there were warnings, she even said before it happened she was going to watch the horse be killed!

I would much rather watch this kind of program and be aware of what is going on around the world than switch it off and be none the wiser. Ignorance is bliss, doesnt mean it doesnt happen!

Like the PETA video for KFC, that was horrific but you know what, I watched it and now I dont eat KFC. Watching an animal killed for Halal meat, hated it, avoid halal like the plague.

_ETA: QR _


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## Robyn0288 (13 April 2009)

People who are saying they avoid Halal, I dont know if you know this, but muslims dont eat the hindquaters of an animal, so this meat is sold on the general market and does not have to be labelled as halal. 
You might know this, just i didnt until recently, and was shocked i could have been eating Halal without realising it!


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## LankyDoodle (14 April 2009)

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't catch the very start of the programme so didn't get the benefit of the warning beforehand, otherwise I would have chosen not to watch. But are you seriously saying that the scene needed to be shown in such a detailed manner, with close ups of the distressed animal? you may be comfortable with being "educated" in this way, but I was not. Common sense?
Just a final thought; if they showed a dog in china in the same manner; how many thousands of complaints would the bbc get? 

[/ QUOTE ]

I saw Louie Theroux (I think it was him), eating all manner of animals' penises and testicles in China, on TV, a few years ago.  I can honestly say that I was not traumatised by the experience and I did not link the thing he was eating to the domesticated animal my gran has curled up on the rug in front of her fire.

You justhave to accept that we are but one culture in a world of many cultures.  Just because we have a particular way with certain animals, does not mean every other culture does or should.  Who is to say which way is the right way?  And whose judgement will it be based on?  It's all about perception... and a little bit of empathy.  Some of us feel it is wrong; however, a lot of those in other cultures see this as being completely normal.

In the same way, while we don't make a habbit of eating dog or horse here, in other cultures (including other Western cultures) DO eat these animals.  They are animals just like cows, pigs, sheep, chickens.  It is WE who domesticate them and make them into the things they are (pets, work animals, whatever).

I'm not saying I wouldn't find viewing this quite disturbing; but the fact I am accepting that I probably would find it disturbing, says more about me and the society I was brought up in than it does about the people who live like that.


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## willfinnemore (14 April 2009)

Is there any chance of a link to this video please? I cant comment unless I have viewed it


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## chestnut cob (14 April 2009)

I would imagine it's still on the BBC iPlayer...


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## willfinnemore (14 April 2009)

Thankyou. These people say it is culture but we all have to change things one day. they could perhaps keep the cultural traditional killing but still make it humane. They could make a race so the horse can be knocked on the head without being strangled. Or something on those lines.


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## jules89 (14 April 2009)

Ive just switched onto this tonight and I feel sick


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## hellybelly6 (14 April 2009)

I do not see how this type of slaughter can be excused in one word 'culture'.  What a load of rubbish and political correctness.  There is no need, in this day and age for inhumanity to animals or each other.  Every journey starts with just one step, why not start here?

It doesnt matter if the animal has the best standards of care imaginable, if the slaughter is traumatic, slow and physically painful.


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## marble (14 April 2009)

tonights programme shows last weeks programme in a true context, one countries people making living out of horse meat, but animals loved and cared for, albeit maybe not killed the way we would wish, and tonight people with money but not kindness using animals to gratify their whatever feelings.... I know which I prefer, horses used, bulls tortured and killed.....I think we were also not shown, the pre fight..were old, lame...horses are padded and used to raise bulls anger....padding often does not stop bulls horns tearing into horses flesh....may I ask why we  British in the EEC allow anti fox hunters to dictate our hunts, but do not ask sabs why they are not in spain to stop this...Also in France on any Sunday in the year...you can see shooters out with their guns, shooting down any bird flying in range...are we going mad in the Uk....Every day we see more cruelty not only to animals, but every living thing on our planet.....I look at the forum we are on, plus other forums and think can we not get together, vote vote and please put a stop to it.


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## TicTac (14 April 2009)

I tell you what, Alexandra got on my neves this evening, squealing and moaning BUT what absolutely beautiful horses and so calm yet agile.

Once again. When in Rome.................You don't have to agree with what goes on to admire the beauty and courage of their horses.


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## flash1 (14 April 2009)

How people in this day and age can think its ok to kill a horse in this way is beyond me. I respect and understand other cultures but it is not necessary to use such cruel and barbaric methods. these people had satalite tv and yet can not find a more humane method of slaughter.
however the bbc did well to bring this to peoples attention maybe these people will now be educated in more humane methods


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## Tia (14 April 2009)

QR -

Okay it has taken me a while to finish reading the whole of this thread but I have now.

Like Meowkiss, I also live in a country familiar to -35 temperatures so I'll offer my thoughts on the matter based on someone who actually lives in this type of environment too.   I am a gun owner aswell so I have a little bit of knowledge on this score.

Guns would be a very bad choice to use to kill the horse.  Guns do NOT work consistently in temperatures like we have.  It can be difficult to get the lock on and off for a start.  The gun oil can cause trouble in cold weather and can cause resistance to motion which will interfere with the manner in which the bullet is thrust out.  The gun oil can also be a cause of the gun misfiring which would be seriously bad news.  Trying to fire a gun in -35 would involve taking your gloves off and anyone who has experienced these temperatures would know that you have about 2 minutes before your hands will start to turn black and die.  A gun is metal, any condensation and your hand will be stuck solid to the metal parts.  Intense heat given out by the firing, should it be successful, could cause irrepairable damage to the gun, so it might be a "one time wonder" for each gun.  Probably there are many many more reasons than I have thought of, but I'm sure you get the idea?

Slitting throats - probably a very bad idea if you ask me.  At -35 liquids freeze solid within seconds.  T'would be a shame to go to the very difficult trouble of slitting a horses throat in those conditions, for the blood to stem almost immediately.  Blood loss would have wolves howling at your boots (I know, been there Lol!), can be quite scary so clearing up the blood would be the very first thing you would need to do, and if you were lucky enough (for the horse's sake) to have the blood flowing, then you wouldn't be very lucky when the wolves start attacking you to get to the horse.

Stabbing, yes as MK says, far easier as the blood would be contained within the heat of the body.  Slitting, not so easy, combined with the troubles mentioned above.

Bolt gun; can't see that being any more effective than a gun to be honest.  You'd still have the problems of it jamming and then you'd end up with a horse with horrific injuries ... but still alive.  And how do you get it into a position to get a good clean shot?  Nigh on impossible if you ask me.

Euthanasia; not sure at what temperature the liquid freezes at.  Anyone know?  Can't imagine it would be easy to euthanise a wild horse in any case and it would be unsafe to eat then, so no good as an option.

Sorry but I have to say, strangling, bludgeoning and then stabbing, seems the most effective manner to me, given the extreme conditions.  I am thankful I have a vet to do the deed for me when needed.


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## Tia (15 April 2009)

Oh and just to add, skinning a hide is not difficult, infact once off the meat it is quite easy in freezing conditions, I've done it.  You use a different type of knife which, once underneath the sinew has the hide literally lifts off the flesh.  To clean the hide you use a frame to stretch the hide and you slather the meat off.  To butcher the animal there and then, you would need a concoction of different knives to carry around with you and you would need a fair amount of containers for the meat and hide.  I would imagine dragging a dead carcass would be easier than transporting a whole butchered animal.

(Sorry if this is a little graphic, I'm simply trying to answer some of the questions which came up in the thread.)


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## siennamum (15 April 2009)

I don't know if you were able to watch the programme Tia, it was fantastic &amp; such healthy happy horses.
My view was that the method of euthanasia was fairly guaranteed to ensure the handlers weren't in close contact with the horse until it was down &amp; semi conscious. Those guys couldn't afford to get kicked or have broken limbs &amp; I think that was the governing factor in it's death.


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## Tabbi (15 April 2009)

I chose not to watch these programmes.  I am the type of person who could not watch an animal being slaughtered.  Where as I understand how animals are killed for meat etc I don't like to watch it happening.  

My husband is very much into guns and goes shooting rabbits, pigeons, pheasents etc and he brings them home to eat.  again I cannot watch the process of the plucking, gutting etc but the meat does not go to waste and that is a good thing.  

I have friends who are watching this series and they think it is very interesting and informative but you have a choice of turning the TV over if you don't like watching these types of programmes.


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## gabbypinkjessica (17 April 2009)

A fascinating insightful introduction to a totally different culture.  To those who want to educate and influence these people to use 'more humane' methods, I would suggest you pack your winter clothes and go and spend some time out there.  Ask about other methods. Explain your reasoning to them. It's no good telling us from behind your computer screen.  
If it upsets you that much then do something about it.  
I'd be surprised if there are better methods, but also if you could stand face to face with one of these guys and tell him he is cruel after seeing him work with his horses.


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