# Should I get legal help after horse purchase?



## silkec (21 June 2014)

I bought a 5-year old warmblood mare in December 2013. According to the seller, she had been left late to mature, and mostly been long reined and worked in Hand. I have seen her ridden and have been riding her before the purchase. The mare had a good 5-stage vetting prior purchase.I also ordered a custom made saddle at the time of purchase, which took 2 months to be made. In that time, the mare was worked in Hand. In March, we first started working with the saddle for 2 weeks, and then I started mounting and riding her like an unbroken youngster. Everything seemed fine for about a month. By then, I worked in all 3 gaits with simple exercises. In a matter of about 2 weeks, she suddenly started behaving funny when getting on. I was bucked of without warning three times. Unfortunately I had a very hard fall with the third bucking and broke my hip. One day after the accident, I had a physiotherapist looking at the mare, who immediately mentioned a problem with the sacroiliac area as the was hyper-sensitive in the area and dropping her hip as well as slightly dragging her hind legs. She also was convinced that the mare had been covered before as her teets are quite large. The vet confirmed after an internal examination that the mar was no longer "intact", and that her uterus was slightly large but didn't want to give me in writing that she had been used as a broodmare. The mare also had a full set of spinal x-rays showing no problems in that area. The mare was put on Regumate, rested for a month and moved now to a training yard. I also had the blood , taken during the 5-stage vetting, tested for drugs with a negative result. After a week of training, she showed once more signs of dropping her hip. The vet nerve blocked the entire lower leg without any improvement. Now, I am facing an expensive bone scan, which I can only afford due to the mare's insurance. I have been told that this looks very much like a case of someone selling a horse, which is not fit for purpose, and that I should force the seller to show the mare's full medical history. I don't have the finances for an expensive lawyer, and I am still recovering from surgery after the hip fracture.


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## Lynsey&Smartie (21 June 2014)

I would imagine that if you saw her ridden prior to purchase and rode her yourself and she behaved with no problems (and you know she was not drugged due to the blood test at the vetting) that it would be very difficult to prove that she had a pre-existing condition when you purchased her that the vendor was aware of.

You have had her for 6 months and have had a month of work with no problems so I would be questioning whether she has injured herself maybe in the field or whether she has developed a condition in the time you have owned her.

Did you ask the vendor if she had had any physical issues or whether she has had a foal in the past? I'm not really sure whether the foal issue is relevant TBH.

You could always ask to see her medical history, if they have nothing to hide they may well give it to you.


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## Stroppy Mare (21 June 2014)

Second the above and also get her saddle checked - it could be a factor in her problems. Not all M2M are fitted correctly and at 5 it's likely that after having 2 months out of work, since fitting, that she changed shape and a month down the line of being ridden in it has changed again.


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## twiggy2 (21 June 2014)

after this amount of time I fail to see why you would think any of the issues are anything to do with the previous owner.

when you bought the mare she was rideable you have had her 6months and now she is not rideable


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## Fides (21 June 2014)

I'm afraid I am with the others - 6 months is too long and likely the problems have occurred since you have had her. If you had the saddle m2m when she was out of work it likely doesn't fit now and has been causing issues. Have you had the sale rechecked since she has been in work?


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## dogatemysalad (21 June 2014)

Agree with the other's. 
I'd also say that it isn't unusual for a nice mare to have a foal before starting ridden work. I bought a DWB who was started late after having a colt, although the foal was documented on her passport.

Good luck with getting your horse's issues sorted.


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## silkec (21 June 2014)

Thanks for all of you getting back!
We obviously had the saddle checked, and since the horse showed symptoms after riding it not even a month, the vet feels that there are underlying issues which could point at something "fishy". The physio was back today and also commented that might have had a previous pregnancy.

I realize that it is quite difficult to respond without knowing the entire history, therefore, I will rather try speak to one of the BD lawyers.
Does anyone know of an equine lawyer working on a no-win-no-fee basis?


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## MissTyc (21 June 2014)

Did the seller ever specify that she has NOT had a foal and was this important to you at the time?
Many nice warmblood mares are covered at 2 years and are then grown to maturity with foal at foot, so weaning would have been last summer (3-4 months before you bought her?). This should not lead to any later concerns, however. A hip/SI injury can easily occur at any stage in a young horse


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## Meowy Catkin (21 June 2014)

The horse passed a 5 stage vetting and the bloods were clear, so you need to prove that there was a pre-existing condition that the Vet missed (and did not occur after you bought her). That's a very tall order 6 months down the line.


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## Fides (21 June 2014)

Faracat said:



			The horse passed a 5 stage vetting and the bloods were clear, so you need to prove that there was a pre-existing condition that the Vet missed (and did not occur after you bought her). That's a very tall order 6 months down the line.
		
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This. 

And why is her previously having a foal an issue? As long as she is not currently in foal tmit has no bearing.

I don't think a no win no fee lawyer would even look at this case - there has to be a strong chance of winning for that.

After 6 months it could be argued that your actions have caused the problems, unless you can find proof that the horse acted this way in the previous home. Without this proof it it likely going to be that you will lose tha case on the basis that you cause the issues (or they developed) in the 6 months of your care. 

For any action you need proof that they misled you


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## twiggy2 (21 June 2014)

silkec said:



			The physio was back today and also commented that might have had a previous pregnancy.
		
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I cannot think of a reason this would be relevant


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## Amymay (21 June 2014)

Can't imagine you have any comeback. Did you ask if the mare had been covered?


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## ihatework (21 June 2014)

Some times you just have to suck it up and accept you may have purchased a dud.
Most experienced horse people have been there and got the t shirt.

I cannot see how you will have any comeback on the seller, well I certainly hope not anyway.


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## silkec (21 June 2014)

amymay said:



			Can't imagine you have any comeback. Did you ask if the mare had been covered?
		
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Yes, and according to them, she hasn't been covered.
My vet confirmed though that she is no longer "intact", that her uterus is enlarged, and that her teets are unusually  long and flat.


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## twiggy2 (21 June 2014)

silkec said:



			.
My vet confirmed though that she is no longer "intact", that her uterus is enlarged, and that her teets are unusually  long and flat.
		
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but why is that relevant?


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## cptrayes (21 June 2014)

To be blunt, it's people like you who make me scared of selling a horse these days.

Whether she has previously had a foal or not is irrelevant and sounds like  you are just looking for an excuse to send her back.

I can't see one single reason why you assume that her current behaviour is any fault of the seller whatsoever. She's probably just hurt herself since you bought her. I know a mare who broke her pelvis overnight in a stable, things happen to horses.  I feel sorry for the sellers  for the stress you are giving them.

I feel sorry for you too, but I'm afraid that's horses for you


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## Meandtheboys (21 June 2014)

cptrayes said:



			To be blunt, it's people like you who make me scared of selling a horse these days.

Whether she has previously had a foal or not is irrelevant and sounds like  you are just looking for an excuse to send her back.

I can't see one single reason why you assume that her current behaviour is any fault of the seller whatsoever. She's probably just herself since you bought her. I know a mate who broke her pelvis overnight in a stable, things happen to horses.  I feel sorry for the sellers  for the stress you are giving them.

I feel sorry for you too, but I'm afraid that's horses for you 

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Exactly................


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## YasandCrystal (21 June 2014)

It sounds like an SI injury that can happen at anytime. If he was moving well before and the blood tests were negative this all points to a recent injury. There is hope for rehabbing an SI injury.


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## silkec (21 June 2014)

And I am scared of people like you, judging without having all the facts!!!!!

My main concern is my mare, and right now I am spending my last penny to get her sorted. Should it turn out that the seller has conveniently forgotten about an injury caused by a pregnancy, then my aim would not be compensation for my broken hip and to return the horse but to secure the wellbeing of the horse since my insurance won't be paying forever. 
If it is true, and she has been injured as a broodmare,  why would I be wanting to send a horse back to people who sold a broken horse under false pretence?


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## Fides (21 June 2014)

Sounds completely bizarre. Why would you suspect that it is an injury caused by pregnancy? More likely to be a slip in the field, an ill fitting saddle or an unbalanced rider that has caused back pain. If you hear hooves think horses not zebra....


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## silkec (21 June 2014)

Meandtheboys said:



			Exactly................
		
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Wow, I am kind of shocked  how quick you people are with judging other, instead of trusting that someone is trying to secure the future of a potentially broken young horse.


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## Fides (21 June 2014)

silkec said:





Wow, I am kind of shocked  how quick you people are with judging other, instead of trusting that someone is trying to secure the future of a potentially broken young horse. 

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That isn't how it came across - it came across that you have an issue with a horse that you are trying to blame on the previous owner, even though you have had the horse for 6 months. You asked for legal advice on how to sue, not how to secure the future of the horse.

Eta - maybe if you had started a thread asking for advice on what to do with the horse rather than how to sue you would have had more sympathy.


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## dogatemysalad (21 June 2014)

What would you like to come from suing the previous owner ? It's unlikely you'd get compensation and keep the horse. 
I doubt a solicitor would work on a no win, no fee basis, the odds are not in your favour, as it's more likely the horse developed issues during your period of ownership.

Just concentrate on your horse. Taking the rough with the smooth is what horse ownership is about.


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## Meowy Catkin (21 June 2014)

_If_ she has had a foal, the fact remains that she passed a 5 stage vetting (and the bloods came back clear, that were taken at the vetting) after having the possible foal.

Regardless of the ins and outs, this is still the main sticking point IMO.


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## silkec (21 June 2014)

Fides said:



			Sounds completely bizarre. Why would you suspect that it is an injury caused by pregnancy? More likely to be a slip in the field, an ill fitting saddle or an unbalanced rider that has caused back pain. If you hear hooves think horses not zebra....
		
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It is bizarre, I fully agree!
There are just too many questions...
physio and vet suspect an injury because
- the physiotherapist has pointed out that the pain seems to come from the sacroiliac area, and that this kind of injury happens often with mares who have been mounted 
- the mare has been worked mostly in Hand at the stud farm for an entire year, and her bucking started a few weeks into ridden training, which could point at an old injury being aggravated
- saddle has been checked twice
- I am usually riding at elementary/ medium level, and my seat has never been an issue for any trainer


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## silkec (21 June 2014)

Fides said:



			That isn't how it came across - it came across that you have an issue with a horse that you are trying to blame on the previous owner, even though you have had the horse for 6 months. You asked for legal advice on how to sue, not how to secure the future of the horse.

Eta - maybe if you had started a thread asking for advice on what to do with the horse rather than how to sue you would have had more sympathy.
		
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I didn't really ask for sympathy, I was simply hoping to hear from people who maybe had a problem themselves, and who know of someone I could contact.

I really had no idea that posting these facts (I tried hard to leave out any emotions) would cause such an emotional uproar!


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## Fides (21 June 2014)

I've just reread the OP and now I am struggling also to understand how you can claim the stud sold you a horse that wasn't fit for purpose. You bought an unbacked 5 year old - the stud would not know whether the horse would take to ridden work as it hadn't been backed. They would have had no reason to bone scan her as her issues didn't start until you backed her. 

Did you back her yourself? Did you see her backed? Did she react when backed? 

Even rereading all your posts I can only read two conclusions - 1) that the horse has been injured since it was backed (as issues did not start immediately and SI issues usually result in immediate and spectacular objections) or 2) there are fundamental issues with her training that she is objecting to (completely unrelated to pain). You say you are working at  medium level but you don't say what your experience is with youngsters. Could she just be confused?


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## silkec (21 June 2014)

She was in fact backed as a 4-year old and then left for another year (not enough time to work all horses I was told), therefore we only re-backed her and took it slow (have done it before, did it by the books also this time). By the way, her bucking was was in fact sudden and very spectacular!
The concern is that we aggravated an old injury which had been left to heal for a year.


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## Meowy Catkin (22 June 2014)

silkec said:



			It is bizarre, I fully agree!
There are just too many questions...
physio and vet suspect an injury because
- the physiotherapist has pointed out that the pain seems to come from the sacroiliac area, and that this kind of injury happens often with mares who have been mounted 
- the mare has been worked mostly in Hand at the stud farm for an entire year, and her bucking started a few weeks into ridden training, which could point at an old injury being aggravated
- saddle has been checked twice
- I am usually riding at elementary/ medium level, and my seat has never been an issue for any trainer
		
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Sorry, but I think you are grasping at straws. 

Non broodmares and indeed male horses get sacroiliac problems too, so even if she has had a foal, you really can't say with 100% certainty that it was being covered (if she has been) that caused the issue.

Working in-hand for a year isn't that odd, nor is issues coming to the surface once the horse starts ridden work. 

I could rant for ages about ill-fitting saddles and saddle fitters thinking they're fine... but i don't want to derail this thread. 

I can't comment on your riding, having never seen you ride.

Did you ask for the horse's veterinary records before you bought her?

ETA - one of mine was lightly backed at 4, then rebacked at 5 and it really was to let her mature.


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## Goldenstar (22 June 2014)

I am sad that you have a problem with your horse .
But you had a vetting that showed no signs of SI pain so how do you think you are going to prove the previous owners knew there was an issue with the horse and that it's their fault the horse has gone wrong after you have owned it for six months .
A vet is going to have to be happy to go to court and say that an old injury has been aggravated and be able to prove that statement and then you are going to have to be able to prove the old owner knew .


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## Kat (22 June 2014)

If you are so experienced why have you posted this in new riders and owners?


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## silkec (22 June 2014)

Because I am not an experienced forum user  Simples!


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## silkec (22 June 2014)

This is for all those who feel strongly about judging others without knowing all facts, and I hope to make this VERY CLEAR, 
this is not about getting rid of an unwanted horse,
this is not about trying to blame someone for my own shortcomings,
this is get to the bottom of the matter which according to independent veterinary professionals is not to be found in the recent past, and

I don't mind your attacks but be assured that I am not (...), and that I not that blonde (mirror says, I am ). I am honestly trying to find angles to look at the matter, and I have exhausted all the alleys you have thrown at me so far, and

thanks to all of you who are really trying to help me finding new angles in the matter!


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## tweed (22 June 2014)

It is an unfortunate situation; not one any horse owner wishes to be in (though sadly many of us do have similar situations occur). Surely to recoup any money here, you would need to be able to prove that a) there was in fact an injury prior to purchase, b) the previous owners knew about it, and c) that it is what is causing the issues now (i.e. a provable connection).

Even if you find out for certain that she had a foal, that is not enough to prove that it injured her and is causing problems now. Most matings (if she was - could have been AI) and pregnancies do not result in injuries. "Could have" and "might have" from your vet and physio is not enough. It's easy to speculate - difficult to prove.

Really if you desperately want to pursue this then you should talk to an equine lawyer, get a feel for the (substantial) costs involved and the likelihood of success. Chances are it will be cheaper and less stressful to find an alternative to involving the prior owners in a case.

Have you contacted the people you bought her from?


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## WindyStacks (22 June 2014)

I'm afraid I'm with those who say "this is horses" and after 6 months you don't stand a chance. It also makes me very wary of selling in this claim culture!

I've just had my 7th (!) vet visit for a horse I've owned 3 weeks. Should I sue the old owners for selling me an asshat who doesn't get out of the way when kicked?

The vet and I were joking about new horse injuries and he told me of someone who spent £££ and the lorry turned on the drive home. 

Caveat emptor. That's life. Buy a bicycle.


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## silkec (22 June 2014)

tweed said:



			It is an unfortunate situation; not one any horse owner wishes to be in (though sadly many of us do have similar situations occur). Surely to recoup any money here, you would need to be able to prove that a) there was in fact an injury prior to purchase, b) the previous owners knew about it, and c) that it is what is causing the issues now (i.e. a provable connection).

Even if you find out for certain that she had a foal, that is not enough to prove that it injured her and is causing problems now. Most matings (if she was - could have been AI) and pregnancies do not result in injuries. "Could have" and "might have" from your vet and physio is not enough. It's easy to speculate - difficult to prove.

Really if you desperately want to pursue this then you should talk to an equine lawyer, get a feel for the (substantial) costs involved and the likelihood of success. Chances are it will be cheaper and less stressful to find an alternative to involving the prior owners in a case.

Have you contacted the people you bought her from?
		
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I did! And they are keeping now very silent after offering me at first to have my vet speaking to their vet, and letting them have a look into the medical history. Even though, they would be doing that on a goodwill-basis, this obviously doesn't help but makes everyone suddenly suspicious.


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## dibbin (22 June 2014)

Did you specifically ask about her veterinary history when you bought her?


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## silkec (22 June 2014)

WindyStacks said:



			I'm afraid I'm with those who say "this is horses" and after 6 months you don't stand a chance. It also makes me very wary of selling in this claim culture!

I've just had my 7th (!) vet visit for a horse I've owned 3 weeks. Should I sue the old owners for selling me an asshat who doesn't get out of the way when kicked?

The vet and I were joking about new horse injuries and he told me of someone who spent £££ and the lorry turned on the drive home. 

Caveat emptor. That's life. Buy a bicycle.
		
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I hate bicycles, they don't smell and they don't greet you in the morning

My vet also starts his frequent visits with some dark humorous comments, love him!

I am sorry to hear about your problem, I hop your horse won't need an 8th one (I am on number 12 right now)!


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## silkec (22 June 2014)

dibbin said:



			Did you specifically ask about her veterinary history when you bought her?
		
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Yes, I did and so did the vet during thee vetting. Nothing of note, according to the seller.


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## cptrayes (22 June 2014)

silkec said:



			I hope your horse won't need an 8th one (I am on number 12 right now)!
		
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Twelve vet visits to one horse for a sacroiliac strain?  I'm intrigued, could you explain what he's been doing?

Can you also tell us what you want the future of this horse to be, and how that would be helped by suing the previous owners?

Is the vet who now says that she has been pregnant but won't commit that to writing the same as the one who did the vetting?

And if not, what did the one who did the vetting say?

I'm asking these questions so that you do not accuse me again of attacking you without knowing all the facts . If you have more facts, please let us know them and then maybe we can help you better.



PS I have owned a gelding who did a sacroiliac injury by slipping on the road one day and sitting down. It's a common cause of sacroiliac strain, and a common accident in horses in the field who stop the front end suddenly.


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## WindyStacks (22 June 2014)

I agree, bicycles are crap! ;-)

I'm really sorry you are having these problems - my first horse was a bit of a lemon. But a super horse nonetheless. 

I'm glad my vet has a wicked soh, just as well given im spending more quality time with him than my husband!


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## Dry Rot (22 June 2014)

tweed said:



			It is an unfortunate situation; not one any horse owner wishes to be in (though sadly many of us do have similar situations occur). Surely to recoup any money here, you would need to be able to prove that a) there was in fact an injury prior to purchase, b) the previous owners knew about it, and c) that it is what is causing the issues now (i.e. a provable connection).

Even if you find out for certain that she had a foal, that is not enough to prove that it injured her and is causing problems now. Most matings (if she was - could have been AI) and pregnancies do not result in injuries. "Could have" and "might have" from your vet and physio is not enough. It's easy to speculate - difficult to prove.

Really if you desperately want to pursue this then you should talk to an equine lawyer, get a feel for the (substantial) costs involved and the likelihood of success. Chances are it will be cheaper and less stressful to find an alternative to involving the prior owners in a case.

Have you contacted the people you bought her from?
		
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Are you sure about (b)? Just being pedantic on a legal point and not entering into the discussion at all! If there was an inherent fault (which admittedly might be difficult to prove), wouldn't the seller be liable whether he/she knew about it or not?

Yes, a shame for the poor horse. When I've bought livestock, I've tended to accept what I've got. And when I've sold, no one has ever come back and offered me more money because they've got a bargain!


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## silkec (22 June 2014)

cptrayes said:



			Twelve vet visits to one horse for a sacroiliac strain?  I'm intrigued, could you explain what he's been doing?

Can you also tell us what you want the future of this horse to be, and how that would be helped by suing the previous owners?

Is the vet who now says that she has been pregnant but won't commit that too writing the same or a different one from the one who did the vetting?

And if not, what did the one who did the vetting say?

I'm asking these questions so that you do not accuse me again of attacking you without knowing all the facts . If you have more facts, please let us know them and then maybe we can help you better.
		
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It is intriguing... the first three visits happened while I was in hospital. One of my vets is now working mostly as a physio, she came right away and pinpointed the type of sacroiliac pain she see a lot in mares who have been covered by a stallion. Then came the other vet with visits, x-rays of her back, internal examinations and nerve blocks on various days. Since both vets are working together, the one followed up on what the the other found (or didn't find). And they are still in the dark, hence they are suggesting a bone scan. 

My mare's future is to get to the bottom of things, and that seems to involve the previous owner to a certain degree, who has become very silent. Should she be not ridable for what ever reason but fit enough to breed, then I might try have a foal since she has excellent bloodlines. When I make the decision to buy a horse, I intend to look after it for life, and I will not let her down!

Vets are funny with giving you a 100% answer, especially a written one, and it was indeed a different vet at the vetting.

Thanks


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## silkec (22 June 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			Are you sure about (b)? Just being pedantic on a legal point and not entering into the discussion at all! If there was an inherent fault (which admittedly might be difficult to prove), wouldn't the seller be liable whether he/she knew about it or not?

Yes, a shame for the poor horse. When I've bought livestock, I've tended to accept what I've got. And when I've sold, no one has ever come back and offered me more money because they've got a bargain!
		
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I like that question, I was hoping for some input and opinions like that!
Does anyone know more about the legal side in cases like that?


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## Meowy Catkin (22 June 2014)

Being silent doesn't automatically indicate the former owner's guilt. Maybe they got legal advice (I would if the new owner was threatening to sue) and were told to not communicate with you?


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## Meowy Catkin (22 June 2014)

silkec said:



			I like that question, I was hoping for some input and opinions like that!
Does anyone know more about the legal side in cases like that?
		
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This puts me off ever selling a horse.

Jeez.


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## webble (22 June 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			Are you sure about (b)? Just being pedantic on a legal point and not entering into the discussion at all! If there was an inherent fault (which admittedly might be difficult to prove), wouldn't the seller be liable whether he/she knew about it or not?

Yes, a shame for the poor horse. When I've bought livestock, I've tended to accept what I've got. And when I've sold, no one has ever come back and offered me more money because they've got a bargain!
		
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If it was a private sale then I'm pretty sure it's buyer beware. If it was a dealer there might be some comeback (generally I mean not specifically this case)


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## silkec (22 June 2014)

Faracat said:



			This puts me off ever selling a horse.

Jeez. 

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If you are an honest breeder with an interest in the horses you have bred, then this shouldn't be an issue for you!
You would work with the new owner on finding the best outcome for the horse!


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## tweed (22 June 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			Are you sure about (b)? Just being pedantic on a legal point and not entering into the discussion at all! If there was an inherent fault (which admittedly might be difficult to prove), wouldn't the seller be liable whether he/she knew about it or not?
		
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Not at all; I am not a lawyer, and certainly no expert on your laws over there. This Horse & Hound article does say that "If the horse has a problem, you must be able to prove the seller knew, or ought to have known, about it in order for you to get a refund".


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## silkec (22 June 2014)

webble said:



			If it was a private sale then I'm pretty sure it's buyer beware. If it was a dealer there might be some comeback (generally I mean not specifically this case)
		
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In my case it was a breeder/dealer


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## cptrayes (22 June 2014)

silkec said:



			If you are an honest breeder with an interest in the horses you have bred, then this shouldn't be an issue for you!
You would work with the new owner on finding the best outcome for the horse! 

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If you are an honest owner, you wouldn't break a horse down and then try to send I it back, but some people do just that. And this seller has no idea whether you are one of those people or not. If you have taken the same tone with the sellers as you have on some of your posts on here, then I am not surprised that they are backing away from you after initially offering to help your vet. I feel very, very sorry for you having this problem, and I have no idea whether you have been shafted by the sellers or not, but I suspect there isn't a darned thing you can do about it now if you have


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## Meowy Catkin (22 June 2014)

Dry Rot said:



			Are you sure about (b)? Just being pedantic on a legal point and not entering into the discussion at all! If there was an inherent fault (which admittedly might be difficult to prove), *wouldn't the seller be liable whether he/she knew about it or not?*

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DR's point was about a seller possibly being liable even if they didn't know about an issue.




silkec said:



			I like that question, I was hoping for some input and opinions like that!
Does anyone know more about the legal side in cases like that?
		
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You liked that suggestion and wanted to explore the possibility.



Faracat said:



			This puts me off ever selling a horse.
		
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I don't like the idea of a seller being held responsible for issues that they don't know about. IE, they sold the horse honestly, allowed it to be vetted, it passed. The issue only became apparent once ridden work started with the new owner, but the owner can sue the old owner, even though the issue never showed with them and the horse passed the vet.



silkec said:



			If you are an honest breeder with an interest in the horses you have bred, then this shouldn't be an issue for you!
You would work with the new owner on finding the best outcome for the horse! 

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In the scenario I describe, the old owner was honest and sold the horse in good faith. 

No. I hope that DR is wrong.


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## silkec (22 June 2014)

cptrayes said:



			If you are an honest owner, you wouldn't break a horse down and then try to send I it back, but some people do just that. And this seller has no idea whether you are one of those people or not. If you have taken the same tone with the sellers as you have on some of your posts on here, then I am not surprised that they are backing away from you after initially offering to help your vet. I feel very, very sorry for you having this problem, and I have no idea whether you have been shafted by the sellers or not, but I suspect there isn't a darned thing you can do about it now if you have 

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My tone to certain responses is entirely based on the verbal attacks they are based on,
but hear your concern with other buyers trying to send horses back too quickly!
I wouldn't want to be a horse dealer if I had a choice!

By the way, I had no reason to attack the seller in any way yet since I am still somehow hoping for her cooperation.


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## dogatemysalad (22 June 2014)

silkec said:



			If you are an honest breeder with an interest in the horses you have bred, then this shouldn't be an issue for you!
You would work with the new owner on finding the best outcome for the horse! 

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I've always worked with new owners and gone to visit horses I've sold, but with someone who suspected me of dishonesty, I'd keep very quiet too, particularly as you view them with such suspicion. They offered to let your vet work with their vet and you see that as an indicator of their guilt. 

FWIT, the last horse I bought was such a nightmare, that my vets, farrier and RI, thought the horse was beyond so dangerous it was beyond rehabilitation. They felt I had been mis sold by the dealer. 
Actually, I wasn't. I won't bore you with the story, but basically, I'm saying that vet's see the horse for a short visit, assess it and make assumptions on what they see at that time. Discussing a possible cause for behaviour, isn't the same as a written statement.


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## sarahann1 (22 June 2014)

Your poor mare, I can imagine SI injury must be painful, hopefully the vet/physio visits will help her come right again.

As for legal come back etc, I'm afraid I agree with the majority here, she passed a 5 stage vetting, her bloods were clear. I don't think you legally have anywhere to go.

As many have said these injuries can happen in the field in a split second. Someone at my old yard turned her horse out, went back to the stable for another one, 10mins she got back to the field her horse was swinging a broken leg in the field, he got put down there and then, poop happens. It's been a really wet winter with slippery ground, you can't know that she didn't go for a hooley round the field and did the splits, or up ended herself etc.

Playing Devils advocate, let's see it from the sellers side:

I sold a horse, it passed a 5 stage vetting, everyone was happy, 6 months on, she's broken and the buyer wants her money back. I don't think I should give her anything back, how do I know that she's not been injured in the that time?

She's had a saddle made to measure, but she's been in work for the last 2 months, surely she will have changed shape, why would you get a made to measure saddle for a newly rebacked horse? 


I'm afraid if I was the seller, I'd be quiet too, hoping you give up and go away. 

There are two at my current yard who are both very recent purchases, both are currently on rest for leg/possible tendon/ligament injuries, neither owner is even remotely considering contacting the sellers, they both accept that poop happens and are realistic horses will hurt themselves.


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## silkec (22 June 2014)

Faracat said:



			DR's point was about a seller possibly being liable even if they didn't know about an issue.




You liked that suggestion and wanted to explore the possibility.



I don't like the idea of a seller being held responsible for issues that they don't know about. IE, they sold the horse honestly, allowed it to be vetted, it passed. The issue only became apparent once ridden work started with the new owner, but the owner can sue the old owner, even though the issue never showed with them and the horse passed the vet.



In the scenario I describe, the old owner was honest and sold the horse in good faith. 

No. I hope that DR is wrong.
		
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I agree that a seller can't be responsible for anything and everything. It has to end somewhere! There needs to be an element of having knowledge of something but not telling the new owner.


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## skint1 (22 June 2014)

silkec I feel for you, it's not what we imagine when we buy our new horse that we will almost immediately be forking out big vet bills for an injury which may ultimately limit the type of work your horse can do.  I have a TB gelding that I bought for my daughter 2011, he didn't cost a lot, in fact even with insurance I've probably spent six times what he's worth on  issues with his hocks and back which required hock injections, physio, chiro, remedial farriery  and a long time off and a slow rehab, It was about 8-9 months into our ownership that the problems started but I never thought about contacting the seller. 

First horse I bought my daughter was totally unsuitable for a teen just coming off ponies, I feel like the dealer should have known that, as we were too novice ourselves to know, but again I never thought about contacting the seller

Only person I know who I feel could possibly have asked a few questions of the seller was a person who bought (in my opinion) a wildly overpriced  horse that was broken within a month and put down after a year of box rest and rehab that failed to work. It must have been heartbreaking for that person. From what I can gather, the horse had a a conformational fault, his hooves were oddly shaped and this placed pressure on his legs and this did for him in the end. He would have had this his whole life according to the remedial farrier.  I feel like the sellers would have known this, but the buyer didn't ask, didn't get a vetting, and didn't make the connection, it was not my place to say what I thought so I didn't.

I think this is just the breaks with horses. I hope it works out for you and your girl. With treatment, most things aren't the end of the world.


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## HaffiesRock (22 June 2014)

Have to agree with everyone else. You had no problems for the the first month and the horse passed a 5 stage vetting so you wouldn't have a leg to stand on. This is horses unfortunately.


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## Dry Rot (22 June 2014)

webble said:



			If it was a private sale then I'm pretty sure it's buyer beware. If it was a dealer there might be some comeback (generally I mean not specifically this case)
		
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No, I was not commenting on this case, just commenting in generally on an interesting legal point. I believe you are correct.


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## abb123 (22 June 2014)

Even the most honest seller can miss problems, especially if she had been very lightly backed and turned away.

This is why we, as buyers, put our trust in a vet to look for potential problems like this. 

You had a 5 stage vetting which is a pretty rigorous assessment of a horses health status at that point in time. It should involve some assessment of their soundness during exercise too. You also had bloods taken which were clear.

I think it is quite clear that the vets assessment is that there were no problems otherwise you wouldn't have bought her.

If there was a SI issue at the time of vetting the vet would/should have picked it up.

If you want to think about suing anyone (I don't think you would be right to do so, by the way) then the vet that did the 5 stage vetting would be a more obvious place to start. Have you spoken to that vet about the issue? 

In all honesty, if you buy a lightly backed turned away horse then it is always a risk as to how they will behave under saddle. I think the sellers have been honest and are quite understandable distancing themselves from you. I would do the same.

The *impression* you are giving here is that you are deluding yourself and looking to blame the sellers when in reality the most likely explanation is that she has done this injury under your care. A bitter pill to swallow and far easier to blame someone else.

You would be far better focussing all your attention on getting her sorted out rather than faffing around threatening to sue. It is a massively time consuming, expensive and emotionally draining process that is rarely worth the effort and that is with water tight evidence and a clear indication of a positive outcome. You don't seem to have any hard evidence at all in your theory of SI injury due to having a foal *or* it being present before you bought her. I can't see how you have a case.

Be honest with yourself, if you were the judge what would you think?

I know some of the posts may seem harsh but it really is the truth. You are setting yourself up for nothing but heartache. I hope you manage to get her sorted out.


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## RachelFerd (22 June 2014)

Another one here terrified to sell a horse again...

You have no come back, simple. Yes, very sad to have a horse in pain, but a legal case, absolutely not - forget the idea as rapidly as you can.


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## brucethegypsycob (22 June 2014)

.... But is it not surprising when you've stated that you would like compensation from the seller for your own fractured hip. ....
From my point of view , the very fact that the seller stated that the mare was started late  suggests that she bred a mare. Quite common to cover at 3 years for a foal at 4 years and back at 5 . That's what I have done.  However, this is all irrelevant . After six months it has nothing to do with the seller.


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## silkec (22 June 2014)

skint1 said:



			silkec I feel for you, it's not what we imagine when we buy our new horse that we will almost immediately be forking out big vet bills for an injury which may ultimately limit the type of work your horse can do.  I have a TB gelding that I bought for my daughter 2011, he didn't cost a lot, in fact even with insurance I've probably spent six times what he's worth on  issues with his hocks and back which required hock injections, physio, chiro, remedial farriery  and a long time off and a slow rehab, It was about 8-9 months into our ownership that the problems started but I never thought about contacting the seller. 

First horse I bought my daughter was totally unsuitable for a teen just coming off ponies, I feel like the dealer should have known that, as we were too novice ourselves to know, but again I never thought about contacting the seller

Only person I know who I feel could possibly have asked a few questions of the seller was a person who bought (in my opinion) a wildly overpriced  horse that was broken within a month and put down after a year of box rest and rehab that failed to work. It must have been heartbreaking for that person. From what I can gather, the horse had a a conformational fault, his hooves were oddly shaped and this placed pressure on his legs and this did for him in the end. He would have had this his whole life according to the remedial farrier.  I feel like the sellers would have known this, but the buyer didn't ask, didn't get a vetting, and didn't make the connection, it was not my place to say what I thought so I didn't.

I think this is just the breaks with horses. I hope it works out for you and your girl. With treatment, most things aren't the end of the world.
		
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Thanks, 
What happened to your gelding?


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## silkec (22 June 2014)

brucethegypsycob said:



			.... But is it not surprising when you've stated that you would like compensation from the seller for your own fractured hip. ....
From my point of view , the very fact that the seller stated that the mare was started late  suggests that she bred a mare. Quite common to cover at 3 years for a foal at 4 years and back at 5 . That's what I have done.  However, this is all irrelevant . After six months it has nothing to do with the seller.
		
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...another one who doesn't bother reading ...at no point I ever mentioned that I want compensation for a broken hip (I don't!) 
...and I also mentioned earlier that the seller clearly stated that she never had a foal.

Otherwise, you make perfectly sense, I agree, but why would the seller then deny it?


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## SO1 (22 June 2014)

I am sorry you are having problems with the horse especially when you did get a vetting done and made an effort to make sure you had a saddle that fitted etc. Sometimes despite doing everything right things can go wrong and it is not anyone's fault it is just bad luck. I think there is always a bit of a risk with a youngster as they can change as they get fitter/older and also if the horse had been out of work for a while for whatever reason you won't know how they will stand up to more work.

If the vets can't find anything obviously wrong with the horse and she had a 5 stage vetting - could it be that the horse is actually ok but is a bit of a difficult horse temperament wise and has sporadic bucking fits/tantrums if asked to do too much sometimes young horses do have tantrums.

It is not clear if the stud you bought her from had her from a foal or if they bought her from someone else, if they not bred her themselves it is possible that she could have had a foal before she came to them and they would not know or were told she had not had a foal or it could have been that she was injured before they had her and did not know.
Has the vet suggested a bute trial to see if the horses behaviour improves when on pain relief.

Personally I think it would be hard to prove the horse had a preexisting condition when you had 5 stage vetting done and rode the horse as well and presume the horse was ridden as part of the 5 stage vetting. However I am surprised that the previous owners are not willing to release any vets records they might have for the horse as if they have nothing to hide this would help clear their name.


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## Flyermc (22 June 2014)

do you need to be careful if your insurance is paying for the treatment, if your vets are thinking its a pre-existing condition?


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## Goldenstar (22 June 2014)

To consider legal action you are going to have a brief experienced in this area I don't think there's any chance you can buy this sort of help for less than £150 an hour.
You will need expert veterinary opinion that will prove the injury is more than six months old .
You will need diagnostics that prove this your insurance will not cover this you will have to stump up the money up front and hope you can recover it as costs if you win.
If you ask a lawyer to sue someone for you they will do so it's up to you to decide if it's in your best interest .
A horse having been covered ( and it's interesting the vet did not sound as if he's would be prepared to be definitive about that ) proves nothing treat size also varies enormously in maidens .
I can think of quite a lot of horses who have had SI injuries and funnily enough they are all geldings .
A friends beautiful gelding miss stepped  going down hill and that ended his career he was never sound again .
Another friend has a pony which returned to full performance after treatment .
You know you buy horses some go lame ,its what they do I won't bore you with the list of equine based misfortune that I have endured over the years including a broken hip you just have to get on with it .


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## Goldenstar (22 June 2014)

Flyermc said:



			do you need to be careful if your insurance is paying for the treatment, if your vets are thinking its a pre-existing condition?
		
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Very true , but the vets cert should if it's a decent insurance company protect OP.


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## skint1 (22 June 2014)

silkec said:



			Thanks, 
What happened to your gelding?
		
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In the end he's fine for what my daughter would like to do with him (low level ROR type stuff) but to be at his best he needs structured schooling to build up his muscles and keep them correct. He needs maintenance jabs to his hocks too.


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## jrp204 (22 June 2014)

Not all mares who have had a foal will have been served naturally. Sorry you have a broken horse, I agree with the others that after 6 months, a vetting and watching her being ridden I think you would be wasting your time and money persuing it.


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## Dry Rot (22 June 2014)

I for one am watching this thread with interest. I do in fact know of a case where a horse was sold after a satisfactory vetting and later developed a fault which was considered to have been latent (no symptoms) before the sale. So neither party was aware that there was anything wrong and the deal was made in good faith from both sides. A veterinary report is merely an opinion and vets are not clairvoyant.

The fact that something was seriously wrong only became apparent some months after the sale. The sellers were professionals, i.e. running an equine related business. I believe they settled out of court but the purchaser's claim was backed by full veterinary reports, tests, x-rays, etc. and she had every intention of following through with court action if necessary. As it was not my horse, I don't think I can say more but I suspect the OP's case is one that could go either way. Certainly, it is bad luck for the buyer, for the seller, and for the horse. But in fairness who should bear the cost of that bad luck?


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## dark_prince (23 June 2014)

Sorry but the horse passed a 5 stage vetting which indicates to me that she has developed an issue post purchase.

Either way, legally you wouldn't get anywhere with compensation.


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## Maesfen (23 June 2014)

Interesting thread, thanks for that.

As a breeder (retired now, just two youngsters left to sell!) it worries me that after a 5 stage vetting plus your personal inspection and ride on a newly broken horse, that six months down the line you think it permissable to think the seller has to give you the time of day now that your horse is broken and you want recompense.

By your own admission you had a made to measure saddle for her even before she had done any work.  Did your saddler not stress to you the importance of the fact that your mare would change shape regularly as she became fitter and matures and to have it checked every month in that first year as she changed shape (and also, did you not notice that yourself too because TBH, it should have been noticed and acted upon; it sounds from your posts that you assumed a MTM saddle would fit for life without any alterations and that is bound to have had repercussions for her, quite likely to be the original cause for her misbehaviour let alone she might have been going through the horrible Hilda stage of being a teenager when youngsters are prone to test their boundaries.

While as a breeder I want all of my horses to go on and lead useful lives, I also vet any new owners in the hope they can give mine the life they need too so that all of us are happy.  Providing that criteria is made, then after purchase it is not my problem but theirs if the horse misbehaves; likewise, I have no input to how the horse is kept, managed and ridden even if I wanted to.  That's not to say Im not interested or won't try to help but to expect your breeders to accept liability (for what exactly?) for something that happened long after you bought her smacks of having your cake and eating it too.  If you bought a car and it caused you injury because you had put the wrong tyres on it (closest I could think of as of the same importance of a saddle fitting correctly) then you wouldn't have any comeback so why is this horse any different?


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## surreygirl17 (23 June 2014)

silkec said:



			...another one who doesn't bother reading ...at no point I ever mentioned that I want compensation for a broken hip (I don't!) 
...and I also mentioned earlier that the seller clearly stated that she never had a foal.

Otherwise, you make perfectly sense, I agree, but why would the seller then deny it?
		
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Can I just point out that just because she's never had a foal doesn't mean she's never been IN foal.  And if she had been in foal and lost it, who's to say it was a natural covering?  Unless the seller remembers they have a certificate somewhere!
Not that I think this has any relation to the case.  Sadly OP you have a broken horse 6 months after buying with a clean 5* vetting.  No wonder the seller has gone quiet as there is nothing they can do.  There are plenty of mares out there who have a foal and never have any issues.  I myself am considering putting my mare into foal when I get pregnant to be my next horse.


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## Kat (23 June 2014)

Horses are just "goods" for the purposes of the law. If you bought from a business you have protection from the sale of goods act and the consumer protection act. it doesn't matter whether the seller knew about the defect, what matters is whether it existed at the time of purchase. Sadly with a clean vetting you will have difficulty proving it was pre-existing.


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## honetpot (23 June 2014)

Faracat said:



			Being silent doesn't automatically indicate the former owner's guilt. Maybe they got legal advice (I would if the new owner was threatening to sue) and were told to not communicate with you?
		
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 If they have contacted their insurance company that there may be a claim they would probably be told this if the have legal cover in their insurance. I have to say if I sold something in good faith and then six months later the buyer suggests I have been untruthful it would stretch my good manners.
 I am really sorry you have broken your hip but young horses are unpredictable, our four year old who was a very placid sort threw my daughter off for no apparent reason, never did it before or afterwards. Fortunately she was on a surface so she dusted herself off and got back on ....carefully after checking all the tack again.
 Your vet and physio were looking for something wrong, and they have found some things that maybe wrong but unless you have a crystal ball you will never know.


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## Dry Rot (23 June 2014)

Kat said:



			Horses are just "goods" for the purposes of the law. If you bought from a business you have protection from the sale of goods act and the consumer protection act. it doesn't matter whether the seller knew about the defect, what matters is whether it existed at the time of purchase. Sadly with a clean vetting you will have difficulty proving it was pre-existing.
		
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Exactly. Google comes up with some interesting information on consumer law.

I do think some posters on here are being very judgemental while the OP has been polite and restrained in her responses.

Meantime, I still have an open mind and will be very interested to hear how it pans out.


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## CBAnglo (24 June 2014)

One of the reasons you are not getting legal advice from the actual lawyers amongst us is that we would not be covered by our insurance for such advice.

I would press to get the pre- existing records but it is a double edged sword it may show the injury is pre-existing (implications for insurance) but also might show, for example, that horse had had a steroid injection into sacroiliac a couple of months before sale and therefore would not show SI pain.  I have one with a SI ligament strain and after a steroid injection there is no sign of SI at all for a good 8 months or so until it starts to wear off.


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## Kittyk (4 July 2014)

I haven't had the time to read the thread but...

I have a 17yr old BWB mare, who I have had for c. 8 yrs.  Passed a 5 stage vetting with no issues at all.  6 weeks later showed signs of wobblers which was infact Ataxia and she recovered after 2/3 months out of work.  Coming back into work she was shown to have a sacroiliac injury which the vet was fairly sure was either the result of a fall or pregnancy and was an aged injury.  I was never told she had had a foal nor did I ask or care at the point of sale and I am not sure the seller would have known either as she had been imported.  

My point is, as upsetting as it was, and believe me after losing my previous horse after just 8 months of ownership it was, I had no recourse.  My vet was loathe to put anything in writing as his colleague had carried out the 5 stage vetting and I had had the horse a while, ridden her with no issues and she'd passed a vetting.  It probably was an injury that was pre-existing but possibly one the seller wasn't aware of either.  It was my bad luck it came to fruition after I had bought her and as a result of the work/lack of work she was in.

I still have her, we have had periods of her being completely sound and able to work at a reasonable level (lateral movements, flying changes etc).  I have to be very careful what I do and don't do with her dependent on her fitness.  Good physio, chiropractor, vet and farrier all help.  I have found she is better with regular work, any period out of work and muscle loss and we're are back to square one again.

It just a very *@{* thing to happen!  I hope it works out for you and your horse.


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## fawaz (13 July 2014)

Can you look up the relevant studbook to check for registered foals out of your mare? Assuming that her having the excellent lines you say, she would be pure bred and registered and the breeder/seller would want to continue to carry on those lines through registered stock?

Are all foals from this breeder registered? If so I would assume if your mare had a foal it would be registered too as surely to breed and not register would defeat the purpose for this breeder....


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## fawaz (13 July 2014)

Also just as a side note, just about every horse I have ever had has had some sort of SI injury at one point or another. Its something that happens and I'm not a breeder....
You can get through it and have a sound horse but you need to find the right professionals that are experts at dealing with it. Good luck with your mare!


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