# Equest Pramox worming concern



## applecart14 (5 October 2011)

Anyone's horse ever gone down with gassy spasmodic colic due to worming of this wormer?  I wormed my horse with this on Monday night, with approx one 575KG equivalent of wormer (one tube) and approx half a tube of wormer.  I now realise this was too much but it had been left for me with instructions to give one and a half tubes.  My horse weighs approx 727KG (was weighbridge weighed in June).

Today (Wednesday morning) my horse (who was kept in since Tuesday morning following shock wave session on vets advice) was very gassy and was lifting his hind legs uncomfortably, stamping them down and letting out watery liquid pooh.  He had done this on previous occasions as he was quite a colicky horse at one time.

He was not showing any other signs of colic and I gave him a sachet of danillon (vet has always recommended this as first line of defence) and he settled and has been fine during the day.  Tonight he was still doing the same stamping/watery pooh but during the day he has been producing normal looking pooh, eating and drinking and behaving normally. No other signs of colic, eating up well, happy in himself, normal gut sounds.  I was happy to leave him tonight turned out.  Without going into loads of detail this is typical of his usual colics/tummy upsets (which have been decreasing since the introduction of pink powder a couple of years ago) and nothing different or out of order was apparent to make me worry any more than usual, so please - no horrified gasps of 'GET THE VET NOW', this is usual of my horse and has been for a long time, the vet is aware and is happy for me to control his colics with bute/danillon, horse walker and then assess him.

But just interested to know if anyone else's horse has had a similiar reaction following worming with this wormer.


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## paddyrose (5 October 2011)

My boy col iced quite badly after having Pramox. rang the vet and he said it is quite a common reaction to it. Would never use it again.


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## Wagtail (5 October 2011)

I have used it with all the horses at the yard and not had a problem. However, my vet said she would not recommend it for worming a horse that had not been regularly wormed and which therefore had a large worm burden as it is quite severe. Our horses only get wormed once a year unless their wormcount says otherwise and all have been fine with this product. You did give too large a dose though (as you acknowledged) and it should have been around a tube and one fifth at the most. I actually give our 850kilo horse only one tube.


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## classicalfan (6 October 2011)

Never had a problem with it (60 horses here).  However, they are all wormed very regularly and Pramox is used once a year for tape worm.  If you've not used it before, often best to give a half dose to get rid of some of the worm burden without sending too many toxins round the body and then give a full dose two weeks later.  If too many worms die at the same time the body can't cope with the decaying mass - colic can be a symptom but worse is toxic shock, which is often fatal.


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## Maesfen (6 October 2011)

Wagtail said:



			You did give too large a dose though (as you acknowledged) and it should have been around a tube and one fifth at the most. I actually give our 850kilo horse only one tube.
		
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My vet works on clinical trials with wormers before they are approved and IIRC, the trial horses are given up to 7 times the recommended dose before anything can be approved just to make sure it's perfectly safe.  They have to test this because of the influx of owners who don't know enough and think more is better (as even some experienced people do too of course especially if a horse hasn't been wormed recently, "let's give it a double dose to make sure" type of thing; the companies also have to be very sure because of litigation of course.

The one thing he is saying is don't over dose on the chemicals as there's nothing stronger to use available at all otherwise everything is going to become immune to them and you might as well just save your money; worm counts and only if necessary for him all the way.


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## applecart14 (6 October 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I actually give our 850kilo horse only one tube.
		
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Hi Wagtail.

I'm not being nasty or criticising but if you do the above you are actually under dosing your horse by 255KG of weight which equates to approx 4.8g of gel/just under half a tube of wormer.

Really its a waste of money and a waste of time as its not going to rid your horse should he have a burden.  You might as well chuck your money down the sink, or alternatively give it to me for the 'Bailey BS re-affiliation fund' 

My horse is fine this morning as I suspected he would be as my mate kindly text me.  I walked down the field last night when it was dark and I could hardly make him out in the light as he had a navy rug on and all I could make out was his white flash on his face!  He was still standing so I was happy to go home!


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## minime (6 October 2011)

I never use Equest as studies say that just 2.8x overdose is fatal. Unless you know the exact weight of you horse ( which the op does) it can be far too dangerous. JMHO


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## Rueysmum (6 October 2011)

I don't know if anyone has already mentioned it, but there was a sad thread on here a week or so ago:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=484803


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## TGM (6 October 2011)

Interesting link here:

http://www.liv.ac.uk/equinecolic/CJP_postdosing_colic_tapeworms.htm

Basically a study which indicated that diarrhoea following administration of a wormer containing praziquental (which is also in Equest Pramox) was actually due to dying tapeworms giving off toxins, rather than an reaction to the wormer itself.


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## 9tails (6 October 2011)

As a sidenote, I made the mistake of pulling off the little plastic stopper with my teeth this Sunday.  Good heavens, the stuff tastes absolutely awful.  No wonder the horses object to it.


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## Mince Pie (6 October 2011)

Never had a problem and mine are done with equest/pramox system every year.


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## china (6 October 2011)

If a well trained SQP sold you (only they are qualified to sell it!) the wormer they should have given you the correct does. It is STRONGLY advised that horses that are not done regularly are done with something much milder such as telmin. Equest pramox is incredibly strong and can cause gut issues and colic to horses that have a large worm burden on those with sensitive digestion. I personally hate worming my horses and putting chemicals into them, i have just done them with telmin and will do tape worm in 6 weeks and then they wont be done untill spring unless an egg count says otherwise.


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## jennyf (6 October 2011)

I've not had a problem, but only worm twice a year with this wormer (or any other) and have worm counts done in between.

I always put my 3 horses on a course of Milk Thistle 2 weeks before worming and continue for a couple of weeks, or until the powder runs out.


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## LittleWildOne (6 October 2011)

I remember checking up on wormers last year to see what was safe to give a pregnant mare for tapeworm. The yard she was on was going to use pramox for tapeworm so I had to look it up to see if it was safe for my pony.
I remember reading somewhere that the drug in pramox, praziquantel, causes gut contractions (to expell any worms) and for that reason it is not advised to give to pregnant mares. She was wormed that time with a double dose of Strongid-P. Sadly, I lost her and her newborn foal to grass sickness in April.
This could be the reason horses are colicking - praziquantel causing gut contractions. 
(Worm egg counts DO NOT detect tapeworm. Even if your horse has a zero count, always worm for tapeworm in late autumn and early spring ).


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## Wagtail (11 October 2011)

applecart14 said:



			Hi Wagtail.

I'm not being nasty or criticising but if you do the above you are actually under dosing your horse by 255KG of weight which equates to approx 4.8g of gel/just under half a tube of wormer.

Really its a waste of money and a waste of time as its not going to rid your horse should he have a burden.  You might as well chuck your money down the sink, or alternatively give it to me for the 'Bailey BS re-affiliation fund' 

My horse is fine this morning as I suspected he would be as my mate kindly text me.  I walked down the field last night when it was dark and I could hardly make him out in the light as he had a navy rug on and all I could make out was his white flash on his face!  He was still standing so I was happy to go home!
		
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I do wormcounts on all the horses and he has always come back as zero. I generally only worm once a year after the first frost to ensure that I get any tapeworm and encysted red worm, unless a horse comes back with anything other than zero on the count. If he was always getting a moderate or high count then I would be sure to dose him on more, but he seems to do fine on the one tube.


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## smiffyimp (11 October 2011)

would never use again. Used once and 3 went down with colic. See a recent thread on here concerning this wormer


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## catembi (11 October 2011)

It gave my old girl about 4 or 5 days of mild colic (monitored by vets).  She was in her 30s and because I hadn't put 2 and 2 together re colic being linked to Pramox, I *very* nearly PTS as I thought it was her age catching up with her.  She is now 38, & I haven't wormed her with Pramox again.


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## Borderreiver (11 October 2011)

Re the praziquantel element of Pramox, this same drug is licensed for pregnant mares when combined in 'Equimax', suggesting that it is simply the lack of drug testing which causes the others not to be. Also I am sure the Pramox equivalent is licensed in other countries but our laws are very strict. Otherwise pregnant mares should have double dose pyrantel for their tapeworm dose.


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## rhino (11 October 2011)

Wagtail said:



			I do wormcounts on all the horses and he has always come back as zero.
		
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Do you blood test for tapeworm? (you need to run an ELISA antibody count to accurately determine tapeworm burden)

OP - as others have said, it is not a wormer I would consider using on a horse with a significant worm burden or with one whose worming history was not known. 




			In case of very high worm burdens, destruction of the parasites may cause a mild transient colic and loose faeces in the treated horse.
		
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(http://www.nutrecare.co.uk/Product-1836/Horse-Wormers/Equest-Pramox)

It is a known and listed adverse effect.


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## Wagtail (11 October 2011)

rhino said:



			Do you blood test for tapeworm? (you need to run an ELISA antibody count to accurately determine tapeworm burden)
		
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No, but I use a wormer that is good for tapeworm every autumn. As the horses at my yard rarely travel, I do not worm more often than this is all other wormcounts are negative.


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## TGM (11 October 2011)

Wagtail said:



			No, but I use a wormer that is good for tapeworm every autumn. As the horses at my yard rarely travel, I do not worm more often than this is all other wormcounts are negative.
		
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Do you give a full dose for the tapeworm wormer, or a reduced dose as stated in your other post?


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## Wagtail (11 October 2011)

If I use pramox, then I use the reduced dose as my vet says it is very severe. If I use equest tapeworm and panacur equine guard then the full dose. Just my preference due to the warnings I have heard about pramox. My big lad can be sensitive to wormers.


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## PracticalHorseSense (12 October 2011)

I know anything with Praziquantel in it isn't recommend for horses with Insulin Resistance and/or Cushings.


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## applecart14 (13 October 2011)

TGM said:



			Interesting link here:

http://www.liv.ac.uk/equinecolic/CJP_postdosing_colic_tapeworms.htm

Basically a study which indicated that diarrhoea following administration of a wormer containing praziquental (which is also in Equest Pramox) was actually due to dying tapeworms giving off toxins, rather than an reaction to the wormer itself.
		
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Wow thanks for that, that is very interesting.  Thanks for all your replies x


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## eclaire (10 March 2012)

PracticalHorseSense said:



			I know anything with Praziquantel in it isn't recommend for horses with Insulin Resistance and/or Cushings.
		
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Do you have any idea of why? I have been told to give pramoxes by my vet for mine as he thinks it is the best one for this time of year and two of mine are cushings. They have had it before.
thanks
claire:-}


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## popularfurball (10 March 2012)

Pramox is the only wormer for encysted red worms. Encysted reds are undetectable by bloods or poo sample. If they have a high worm burden, especially encysted reds then it can induce colic due to the body reacting to the worms.


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## popularfurball (10 March 2012)

Evlaire, pramox is often linked with footyness/laminitis - again as laminitis is a metabolic problems often. Toxins in system by dead worms can induce lami


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## Clava (10 March 2012)

popularfurball said:



			Pramox is the only wormer for encysted red worms. Encysted reds are undetectable by bloods or poo sample. If they have a high worm burden, especially encysted reds then it can induce colic due to the body reacting to the worms.
		
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Panacur 5 Day Guard is also for encysted redworms.


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## horsemad32 (10 March 2012)

I have used it twice a year every year for tapeworm and has been fine.


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## Dolcé (10 March 2012)

popularfurball said:



			Pramox is the only wormer for encysted red worms. Encysted reds are undetectable by bloods or poo sample. If they have a high worm burden, especially encysted reds then it can induce colic due to the body reacting to the worms.
		
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The plain Equest also covers encysted redworms and it was the plain Equest that led to our mare foaling a full month early, I would never use either product again.  I had avoided them in the past but was recommended to use it by our SQP on this occasion. I am quite sure that many horses have no adverse reaction but there seem to be an awful lot that do, I just wouldn't take the risk again.


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## Marydoll (12 March 2012)

Clava said:



			Panacur 5 Day Guard is also for encysted redworms.
		
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There is so much resistance to panacur i dont use it now


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## JanetGeorge (12 March 2012)

Dolcé;10516097 said:
			
		


			The plain Equest also covers encysted redworms and it was the plain Equest that led to our mare foaling a full month early,.
		
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Sorry to hear about your mare - BUT - how do you know it was the Equest caused her to foal early?  There are a number of reasons a mare foals early, and even if she did it within 24 hours of being wormed, that would not prove the product ws to blame (altough worming MIGHT be whatever the product.)

I've been worming my broodies with Equest 2-3 months before foaling for literally years - to get the encysteds -nd never had a problem.  (I don't worm any closer to foaling than that.)


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## turkana (12 March 2012)

marydoll said:



			There is so much resistance to panacur i dont use it now
		
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I agree, my anglo arab has been ill, a scan of her intestines showed inflamation in her small intestines, my vet (who specialises in internal medicine) thought it could have been an infestation of red worm, she was done with panacur 5 day guard in the autumn.

He told me that there is a resistance problem with this wormer, she was wormed with equest & she quickly recovered (although she got worse before she got better due to the red worms dying inside her)

My poor mare looked like a welfare case & really suffered as a result, she's always been wormed regulary & I was shocked that she could become so ill so quickly as a result of 1 dose of ineffective wormer.

On vet's advice I've now completely changed my worming habits so hopefully there won't be a repeat.


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## lornaA (13 March 2012)

My mare had colic after being wormed with pramox.  She had been regularly wormed yet she had quite a bad colic.  My vet recomended that i never use it on her again.


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## herring (16 November 2012)

I have used Pramox annually midwinter for several years now on our small yard (25) & have experienced 2 cases of colic with it: once with a newcomer who turned out to have very sensitive guts & the other with a youngster who had a burden (unbeknown to us & despite FEC testing). I think PRAMOX is a fab drug so long as you use it properly: it is STRONG & should be used with caution on sensitives. My criticism would be that in many of the places one can buy wormers the SQP is either unavailable or does not volunteer any advice: consumers have to seek it out for themselves, which is part of responsible husbandry really, but many people seem to be blissfully in the dark when it comes to worming.


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## putasocinit (17 November 2012)

I have heard equest can cause colic because it is strong and gets the job done, in other words it removes the worms which is what causes the colic symptoms. So horse had worms so to speak.  I would err on the side of caution when giving a horse bute/danilon without vets permission first if suspected colic, i was really told of by my vet for doing this because he said it would over shadow the symptoms if the colic got really bad, considered myself told off lol.


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## horsestar (17 November 2012)

Not with pramox. But I did with Equimax tablets! I gave my horse who is 565 kilo so I gave him 5 tablets. 28 hours later u found him colicing with blood all over the stable I panicked rang the vet and basically thought it was encysted red worm though gut wall. He went straight to Leahurst where we ran up a £4500 vet bill 10 days later he came home. He basically had a reaction and his gut wall was absolutely fine- couldn't find a bleed and was scoped twice a day had a full mot on everything in his body including splene


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## WandaMare (17 November 2012)

I used Pramox for the first time this autumn and my 10 year old mare looked uncomfortable as soon as I had given it to her, she had never reacted like this to any other wormer I have used. She didn't eat her feed or hay for awhile afterwards which is unheard of for her. I was worried she was suffering a reaction and walked her from her stable out to the field and eventually she started to nibble the grass. She was quiet all evening but luckily seemed fine when I went out late to check on her. It was enough to put me off using the product again, I think it was too strong for her.


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## L&M (18 November 2012)

I won't use it now - heard too many scare stories, despite none of mine ever reacting to it. I use equitape instead.


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## Goldenstar (19 November 2012)

marydoll said:



			There is so much resistance to panacur i dont use it now
		
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But if your land is showing no signs of having resistant worms it's a good choice .


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## Daisy2 (26 November 2012)

Oh dear I have just bought some..musing now whether to use or not. How does on know if there horse is sensitive. I have never had any other problems with other wormers.


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## Merlin11 (26 November 2012)

I have used equest without any probs - was using panacur but it wasn't working. I haven't used equest pramox as i have read about a few bad reactions on here.


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## jennyf (27 November 2012)

I've used it without problems, but I don't worm too often, have worm counts done, keep fields clean and always use Milk Thistle Powder for a couple of weeks before worming and continue use for a couple of weeks after worming or until all used up!!


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## heartsmeadebramble (11 January 2013)

I used this pramox on Tuesday morning and by 3pm my horse was dripping in sweat but showed no other signs of colic,continued to check on him and rang the vet for advice who said it is a common reaction to the wormer,will never be using again.i only used it on vets advice int he first place


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## whisp&willow (11 January 2013)

9tails said:



			As a sidenote, I made the mistake of pulling off the little plastic stopper with my teeth this Sunday.  Good heavens, the stuff tastes absolutely awful.  No wonder the horses object to it.
		
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I did the very same when I used it last year.  It was vile and stayed with me for the rest of the day.  Needless to say-  it went straight in the horse's mouth, NOT in the feed!  

None of mine had any reactions to the pramox.

And picking up on the overdosing point-  I always read the leaflet inside and they give you figures on overdosing trials. I seem to recall pramox was 7x with no effect?  Recently the equine vet actually told us to over-estimate weight and over-dose rather than under-dose. 

OP-  hope your horse is feeling back to him/herself soon.  Colic is never fun.   x


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## Misog2000 (11 January 2013)

We use Equest and Equest Pramox on all the horses on my yard and have never had an issue, interestingly my mare reacts quite badly to Panacur 5 Day, she goes very dull and listless for the whole 5 days she is on it, and a couple afterwards. Due to this and the fact that i don't feel there is any point using it as there is so much resistance to it I now use an Equest when the rest of the yard uses Panacur (Vet has ok'ed this)


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## starryeyed (11 January 2013)

We gave our horses pramox last year, two came down with very severe colic (we didn't expect them to make it through) and the other horse went off all food for about a week and had to have several vet visits to tube him. They've never reacted to wormer before and all were perfectly healthy - I think it's a very effective wormer but just too strong for some horses. I've heard quite a few similar stories too, won't go near it again. x


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## Coblover63 (11 January 2013)

Not colic but Pramox has made two of my barefooties footsore.  I'd rather use Equest and then Equitape a couple of weeks later.  And a course of Pink Powder before, during and after just to help their digestive system.


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## melbiswas (11 January 2013)

My old boy who has had hind gut problems developed lami for the first time 2 days after worming him with Pramox in Dec.  Nothing else had changed in his diet or management  and there were no frosts. I am kicking myself.


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