# Desperate plea for bit recommendations to stop a tank of a horse!



## becca1305 (13 November 2011)

I took my mare out hunting yesterday which would be our 3rd time out and had to come home eventually as I just couldnt stop her and it was getting dangerous. I initially went out in a cheltenham gag, she got stronger and stronger until i had to put my entire weight on the bit to stop her and could barely cope with the pain in my fingers when she started to yank her head down to the floor and then from side to side.  In doing this she managed to cut her mouth slightly -unsure whether on bit or whether her tooth on her lip which she has done before. We left the hunt and headed to the 2nd horses rendevous planning on going home. However my friends YO said she would get me a pelham that would stop a tank and that she definetely wouldnt lean on, so a rest and slightly refreshed fingers we rejoined the hunt. Needless to say my brakes completely failed again and due to the nature of the country and horse having gone so braindead to not care about crashing into fences, falling over etc we had to head home again.

She doesnt rear, buck, kick etc just goes braindead and pulls. I contemplated trying to find a stronger rider to take her a few times but that would be difficult as at 6ft and fit Im no weakling myself. I really want to hunt her as she is so brave and bold xc/team chasing and has a huge jump but hunting just seems to blow her brains. I am going to try a calmer before next time out, but I could really do with a stronger bit so I know I have some more brakes! Ive been advised to repeatedly take her until she gets the idea but I need something I can stop her in to do this safely! She usually has a relatively soft mouth and is ridden in a snaffle so although I dont want something that will tear at her mouth, Ive got to have brakes!! 

Sorry for the long, waffley post. Anyone got any ideas please?!!!


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## chestnut cob (13 November 2011)

Waterford snaffle or gag?


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## Lynnskatz (13 November 2011)

Use a grackle noseband too to stop her crossing her jaw and grabbing the bit x


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## becca1305 (13 November 2011)

Shes in a grackle now sorry forgot to say. Have tried a gag though not a waterford to no effect before  i dont know if a waterford would help stop her leaning but a gag definetely isnt strong enough and the cheltenham gag is meant to lift their head up but didnt help . Thanks for the suggestions though . Is there anything stronger that has a waterford mouth piece?


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## be positive (13 November 2011)

A double bridle, you could use a wilkie as the bridoon, they often use this combo in the show ring now for very strong horses.


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## marmalade76 (13 November 2011)

re. the pelham suggestion, I have found that a pelham (the orginary mullen mouth type) is the last thing you want to put on a horse that tends to lean.

I used to have a very strong horse, he never did anything naughty, just went like a steam train. I could stop him, I just couldn't keep him steady, flat out or nothing!

Personally, I found a Dutch gag sharper than a Cheltenham. You could try this with some harsh mouthpieces, ie Waterford, cherry roller, but you will probably find that you horse will end up with a cut mouth. I never resorted to nasty mouth pieces with mine. 

The other thing you could try is something like a kineton.


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## marmalade76 (13 November 2011)

be positive said:



			A double bridle, you could use a wilkie as the bridoon, they often use this combo in the show ring now for very strong horses.
		
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Made not a blind bit of difference to mine!


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## Archiepoo (13 November 2011)

Have a look on the bit bank for peewee bit ,theyre are brilliant !


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## becca1305 (13 November 2011)

Marmalade- thats what I thought about pelhams but my friends YO is very experienced and has produced several horses to top level and said nothing would lean on it and that one of her riders used it hunting with great success with her tank of a horse! Maybe my mares mouth more hardened than I give her credit for, no idea why though as she is usually ridden very gentle handed in a snaffle! 

I didnt think waterfords were meant to be too harsh on account of their flexibility so may try one of them on a dutch gag to see but I have tried an american gag (with lozenge) which wasnt strong enough either. 

Ahh I think I saw someone out hunting in one of those peewee bits  may do a little research and try one! Thanks. 

Thanks for all the suggestions . All I know for certain is that I am NEVER using double reins again to hunt in as my fingers were in agony!! (and they are a right kerfuffle!)


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## becca1305 (13 November 2011)

Sorry I also meant to say I didnt see the mouthpiece of the pelham so unsure of type as she popped it in quickly for me.


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## JenHunt (13 November 2011)

marmalade76 said:



 re. the pelham suggestion, I have found that a pelham (the orginary mullen mouth type) is the last thing you want to put on a horse that tends to lean.
		
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I'd agree with this! 

try a double bridle, or a waterford gag, or maybe a combination bit (myler) would help? A kineton noseband would have a similar effect.

if shes pulling you forwards out of the saddle and then naffing off my best guess would be the double bridle - almost anything else will encourage her head down.


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## meandmyself (13 November 2011)

Have you thought about trying a hackamore? Or one of these?


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## meesha (13 November 2011)

you sound just like me !!!! I tried Grackle and Cheletnham Gag with 2 reins and had no brakes at all and ended up pointing him into a hedge to stop which he jumped !! I then went home (and even getting back to the trailer was a nightmare !).

The next time out I took off the snaffle rein and used the gag rein ! I now have brakes and steering, the difference is unbelieveable 

Apparently the worst thing you can do with Chelt Gags is to use both reins at once (athough they can have two reins it only works if you have contact on rein not both) as they just lean on it and you have nothing at all.  My chelt gag is leather but the rope apparently also gives a quicker reaction - the mouthpiece i use is the peanut.

Honestly, one rein = brakes         2 reins for me = no brakes and near death experiences (although was great to know I had jumped the hedge !)


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## becca1305 (13 November 2011)

I might try it again with ropes and a singular rein but Im not sure it will be strong enough still  I kept trying to tie my snaffle rein to my  breastplate so i could drop it but the hunt never stopped long enough! However i did do it when I left the hunt to hack to the 2nd horses point and even walking and trotting I didnt seem to have much braking capabilities just on the bottom rein but it may be worth a try with rope cheek pieces. I saw someone at the meet who just had rope cheeks and a singular rein. Id only really opted for leather as I thought it less likely to break than rope, but I could always put a backup headpiece on. 

Thanks for the all the other suggestions, some look really interesting I will google for more info


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## becca1305 (13 November 2011)

Meandmyself - the link looks really interesting  the idea of taking her in a hackamore makes me feel physically sick !  the problem is I cant test them as shes a sweetheart normally went for a testrun gallop in the cheltenham gag and thought I had plenty of brakes! I may try a kineton noseband to see how she responds to nose pressure whilst still having a bit in there


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## emmab13 (13 November 2011)

I would second the double bridle reccomendation, with a curb with nice long shanks. Failing that, a nice waterford elevator.


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## mr.tigs (13 November 2011)

meesha said:



			you sound just like me !!!! I tried Grackle and Cheletnham Gag with 2 reins and had no brakes at all and ended up pointing him into a hedge to stop which he jumped !! I then went home (and even getting back to the trailer was a nightmare !).

The next time out I took off the snaffle rein and used the gag rein ! I now have brakes and steering, the difference is unbelieveable 

Apparently the worst thing you can do with Chelt Gags is to use both reins at once (athough they can have two reins it only works if you have contact on rein not both) as they just lean on it and you have nothing at all.  My chelt gag is leather but the rope apparently also gives a quicker reaction - the mouthpiece i use is the peanut.

Honestly, one rein = brakes         2 reins for me = no brakes and near death experiences (although was great to know I had jumped the hedge !)
		
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This is exactly what i was going to say! My boy goes wonderful in a chelt gag, but only with one rein, with two reins i have nothing!


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## meesha (13 November 2011)

glad im not the only one !! it really is bizarre -like hunting in a headcollar haha - before jumping hedge we had also done sliding halt in front of landrover as couldnt turn and I was about to barrell into rest of field !


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## mr.tigs (13 November 2011)

meesha said:



			glad im not the only one !! it really is bizarre -like hunting in a headcollar haha - before jumping hedge we had also done sliding halt in front of landrover as couldnt turn and I was about to barrell into rest of field !
		
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Oh my gosh! i just used to go hurtling into other horses bums, which i felt awful about, but that was the only way to stop him. other than that you just had to hold on bloody tight!


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## Rosie Round The Hills (13 November 2011)

To stop my Tank of a Mare who I introduced to hunting last season, I tried:-

- Dutch Gag.  Good, but then she started to yank me out of the saddle, so no good.

- Kimblewick.  Stopped her head moving forward, but was too harsh as the rest of her started to move up, out, round and round in a flurry of stress.

- Waterford.  Worked a treat, stuck with that for the rest of the season.

Then this season I started in the Waterford and it just wasn't slowing the tank down.  And she'd started yanking me out of the saddle too.

So I was recommended 

a) a Waterford Gag.  Which I haven't tried, but would definitely give a go if I hadn't already discovered..

b) a Tom Thumb Gag.  Which is amazing.   And makes hunting her a pleasure.

So good luck with your bit experiments, you'll get there in the end


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## becca1305 (13 November 2011)

thanks for everyones suggestions. Im slowly giving up hope  she showjump competes in a tom thumb usually (everything is done in a snaffle at home/schooling) so I can take a good half halt and I also find them very good for direction. However I dont think it would be strong enough for hunting (mine has a lozenge though so is softer than a "single joint" so may try that or american gag with only one joint).  May try the kimblewick as hopefully it wont tear at her mouth as it has nose pressure, or a waterford gag. I just wish bit experiments weren't so expensive! I know you can do trials etc but trying to get what you want is really difficult and the total price is usually a lot more than if you bought from somewhere else without trial! I may be ringing round generous friends!!


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## equinim (13 November 2011)

what exactly does the horse do.
not being funny but depends what she does to evade bit as to what bit to change to
also what is her mouth confirmation, large/small tongue, thin bars, large lips etc

i rehabilitate horses with issues and sometimes a sharp bit will only make a horse sre in the mouth and pull more.

if crossing jaw is a problem a grakle is best but not so tight to stop the horse opening mouth slightly a fingers width in each noseband is required.

a waterford pelham can be a strong bit it prevents leaning as it is not solid so cant be leaned on. used with 2 reins so u can ride on the top rein until u need he bottom rein 

i do find a longshank myer combination bit with suitable mouthpeice for mouth conformation. is a great bit as it works on nose pressure as well as mouth presssure as some horses do respond to nose pressure better than just constant mouth pressure.
if required it can b used with a grale fitted underneath noseband to prevent noseband working and fitted so the x piece is above myler noseband.

a constant pressure gives horse something to lean on a pressure and then release and then pressure prevents horse grabbing contact.

try contacting the bit bank and hire a couple of bits to try when hunting.

the other option is a waterford hanging cheek snaffle with a market harborough so u have the contact required when the horse puls.

is the horse the same doing x country as u could try the bitsdoing x country rather than hunting as u can then pull out if u dont have the control.


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## VGM (13 November 2011)

what is your primary aim with your mare to turn in her in to a rolls hunter or to compete her to a decent level if its the latter and as you say she is a cross country machine anyway why force the issue and try to hunt her i have to say if you have to showjump in a tom thumb she sounds strong anyway in cross country in mine but showjump in a happy mouth
if you are serious about hunting her try a doubel as sometimes the two bits shocks them into a quieter ride i wouldnt put her in anything with poll pressure as that will just encourage her to lower her head more a waterford is a good idea as she cant really lean on that but i would go to a double years ago it was a snaffle kimblewick pelham or a double and that was that


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## equinim (13 November 2011)

another option would b to give her a good worout the day before so she wasnt as fresh and poss hack her 2 mile to the meet so it takes the sting out of her. 
she may not realise she going hunting when u start to hac her and by the time u trot her to meet she have took the worse of her energy.


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## Zerotolerance (14 November 2011)

Swales 3 in 1 - would stop a runaway train! Donkeys years ago I used to hunt a horse who I just could not stop. Tried cherry roller gag, Dr Bristol gag, dutch gag, etc etc. He usually ended up with sore mouth. The Swales was so strong that he was actually too light in it. What worked eventually was schooling a few times in the Swales and then hunting in a happy mouth gag, one rein, as it didn't cut his mouth. I would NOT recommend a hackamore as on something that pulls continually, you can damage the nerves in their nose.


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## becca1305 (14 November 2011)

All she does is lean and then try and snatch her head down and side to side when im braking. Its only her 3rd time ever hunting so I want to give it a try as shes my only huntable horse this season. If she wont settle then she will have to not go but speaking to several friends they had similar issues their first few times out and their horses are now ok (ones even in a standard loosering snaffle now & an absolute gent) however their horses just arent as strong as my mare so whereas they could always stop at a push my brakes get continually weaker! Shes not a strong horse to showjump, xc or even team chase! All of those I could do in a snaffle if I wished but she goes best in a tomthumb (with a lozenge in the middle so not as harsh as a usual tom thumb).

Thanks for all the recommendations will do some more research into the bits mentioned 

 I am definetely exercising prior to going next time in the hope it will help and also shoving a calmer down her! I cant hack to the meet but tbh she doesnt seem to realise in the lorry and is chilled through travelling, loading and mounting and is even just a little fidgety at the meet and pretty good for the first bit of roadwork/gallop and then she goes braindead and becomes a tank! Im sure theres got to be a bit out there which works for us probably combined with a calmer! Im very interested in the bits with added nose pressure rather than all the braking being done on the mouth. Thanks


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## Devonshire dumpling (14 November 2011)

Good luck!!  I wonder if people on here would lend you these bits??  Perhaps if you paid postage and a deposit and return postage?? xx


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## simplyhunting (14 November 2011)

With all our strong horses, we take them out as much as possible until they learn to settle a bit more. They each get hacked to the meets if possible and I do tend to rotate which bits we use in each one, otherwise they figure out how to evade each after a day!   Though I'd be tempted to try a kineton to see if she reacts to the nose-pressure first ( you can tighten it so you use more nose pressure before mouth piece comes into action) and either a cherry-roller or waterford cheltenham gag, if not a dexter bit which works wonders on the pointers which are known for being unstopable.    Though we usually find after a good 3 weeks solid hunting they soon learn to stop when required and settle down a bit, and respect the bits they're in so we can use fingertip touch.


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## equinim (14 November 2011)

i wouldnt use a calmer as it takes some of their senses away and to be honest this can cause them to be more dangerous.

as u say she hasnt hunted much so she may chill out


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## becca1305 (15 November 2011)

Oh pickles hadnt thought of it like that, was thinking from the approach of trying to stop her getting so excited so she goes braindead. Ive never used an instant calmer product before. Can see where you are coming from though thanks


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## immoralorchid (15 November 2011)

Im agreeing with double bridle its the only bridle i dare take my ISH out in and even then i get sore fingers and pulled sholders but we just about have control also i never fully let her go last time i did ended up flying past the field shouting ***** i cant stop no breaks a very kind gent on a cob with a massive behind saved me from overtaking the masters by by blocking my way needless to say i shared my hipflask with him for the rest of the day lol


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## meesha (16 November 2011)

you have just given me a real giggle whilst sat here meant to be working - the images of you charging along with no brakes yelling oooohhh ****** and some kindly man planting his horse in the way is brilliant !!! goes to show how helpful people can be out hunting ! was it only your hip flask you offered him in thanks haha

ps I could have done with someone like that a couple of weeks ago - may have helped me avoid the hedge !! teehheee


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## Holloa (16 November 2011)

I had the same problem with my boy. Took me 2 full seasons to even get still enough to have a nibble and a drink at the meet. Perseverance is the key!
For the next 2/3 seasons I used a cheltenham gag with rope ends and single rein. brilliant brakes. tried everything else nothing worked. I didn't have any luck with the kineton noseband ended up head first into a hedge!

I would also try (if the cheltenham gag (used as above )doesn't work... waterford gag with flash noseband. or as a last resort...a liverpool driving bit.... but this is very strong.

Also maybe try lunging her for 1/2 hr before meet?

Good luck! I hope you get there with her!


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## Grey_Eventer (16 November 2011)

Mine is like this, so I alternate between a "polo bridle"- ie. a gag, drop noseband, loose normal noseband, double reins- works well and a NS universal gag, drop noseband, single rein.

Drop noseband because he crosses his jaw but he fights a grackle.
I think the key is alternating them as he gets too used to them otherwise. I work him in a rubber happy mouth snaffle during the week.

You say you team chase- is this recently? Mine is also a team chaser and it takes a few outings for him to settle and realise he is no longer racing!


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## cptrayes (16 November 2011)

I am currently alternating between a fixed sided Liverpool cherry roller driving bit on the bottom hole and a Mikmar. The Mikmar is best, I am finding. It's a very odd bit, and I do not use the nose rope on it as mine does not respond to nose pressure. I also use it witha curb chain, not a leather strap it is supplied with. I can control him best in the Liverpool but he saws on it like yours and damages his mouth bars more easily than he does with the big wide mikmar mouthpiece. VERY expensive, but you can hire them and send it back if it does not work.

Just would like to point out that a cherry roller is not a severe mouthpiece as someone has said. It actually makes the mouthpiece thicker and kinder and all the rollers do is roll away if they set on it.

Also the Liverpool IS strong (though no more so than the curb rein on  long shank pelham or weymouth) but it is better to use a strong bit less than a weaker bit too much. A bit is only as strong as the hands on the end of the reins.


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## ILuvCowparsely (16 November 2011)

for sponsored rides 

 I find I have the best brakes in  my 2  were in 
a. Kimberwick                              mare
b.  pelham                                  gelding


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## pollypock1211 (16 November 2011)

Ive tried the waterford dutch gag which just set his head and did nothing - mine is much better in the NS waterford jumper/elevator combined with the curb strap and believe me you i have tried eveything - I have one for sale if interested, complete with curb strap as my horse is now only a light hack - pm me if interested.


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## becca1305 (16 November 2011)

Omgosh so many recommendations thankyou all  i think considering how many there are and my dwindling bank balance im going to write a list of all suggested and then ask around friends/ instructors etc if they have any of the list which i can try and then if no luck go for the hire before buy option with the bits i can find before hitting my bank balance harder by moving on to purchases! I totally forgot to mention shes a pain in the arse as she has a wider than average mouth and is bang in between a 5 3/4 and 6 inch so i have to do the best i can although it will probably limit my options a lot! Its weird as shes not a huge horse and her mouth doesnt look particularly big! Thanks again


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## wench (18 November 2011)

Strong bits - long shank myler combination. Twisted snaffle. Barry gag. Eggerton Snaffle (http://horsebitbank.com/full-cheek-twist-eggerton-468.phtml) I 

Its also possible to get waterfords with copper rollers in them. 

Have you tried ringing bitworld up? http://www.bitworld.co.uk/ they are in Leics, knowledgable staff when I have spoken to them.


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