# Was it a staffy or pitbull cross?  Re frenzied dog that bit my ponies



## DuckToller (4 March 2008)

Having told my tale to various people (trying to find witnesses) about a staffy type dog attacking one child and two of my ponies out on a hack, a few people have said it could not have been a staffy.  So for anyone who knows the difference (and sorry if you read long story before) here are the details again. 

A white staffy type dog came out of a car park opp the bridleway and went straight for the pony and child even though it was standing still.  It bit the child twice on the foot, jumped up high enough to leave slober all down child's jodhs (on a big 13.2) then when child fell off, it chased the pony for a mile down the road.  

My daughter chased after the loose pony, but when she was nearly home she found the dog in the road, having lost the first pony.  The dog then turned on her cob and, in teenager's words, its eyes were glazed over. 

She got off (in case she fell off) and tried hitting dog, but it was frenzied by this stage and ignored her.  The cob kicked the dog several times hard, at one point it went into the air, hit a parked car and slid down, but it kept coming back at him.  So pony took off back to the woods with manic dog in tow.  Despite several good kicks from cob the dog kept going until a blow from the front hoof rendered dog unconscious.

Yet despite all this, the dog got back up and was last seen walking (stiffly!) with its owner back to the car park.  

I've been told a staffy wouldn't be likely to do this, partly because they are not that athletic, also that they would be unlikely to keep up for the best part of a mile with a pony that has raced, and a few kicks would be more than enough to put them off.

Any doggy people care to pass comment?  Police are now interested by the way, as local paper rang them!  

Update:  First pony on box rest with 17 staples, and deep puncture wounds to hind legs, but no infection set in so far, cob happily cantering around field, despite puncture wounds to one leg, but keeping one beady eye out for any more dogs that he can boot.


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## itsme123 (4 March 2008)

Rubbish. 

 My friend has one that jumps up to head height when you're playing with it and runs pretty fast when it wants to. it may have been a crossbreed though as staffies are commonly brindle colour (brown, beige and black mottled).


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## siennamum (4 March 2008)

Very pleased to hear the police are interested at last. Maybe the dog has been to a local vets to be treated.
Would expect a staffie x to be perfectly capable of this. Can't imagine why on earth not.


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## dawnpetenathshir (4 March 2008)

I've been hoping for news on everyone involved.  How are the two girls?  I hope the police do get hold of this dog before it kills someone.  Big hugs to everyone involved including ponies xx


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## Patches (4 March 2008)

How big was the dog? Pitbulls are generally taller and less stocky than Staffies, although I am sure there are exceptions to the rule. There are only a few vets in the country that are specialists in identifying them for court cases. Pit Bulls must be muzzled in public and kept only by licence holders. Pretty sure they can't be bred from though. 

As for athleticism.  I personally believe that any of these dogs could do behave in the way these did at the weekend. Maybe your friend was thinking of the British bull dog which is often muscle bound and struggles to breathe...if bred badly.

Pit Bull






Staffie






English Bull?


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## soph21 (4 March 2008)

My god thats awful, I missed that post, Bear would have killed it! A huskey came running up his a$$ on Friday and spooked him so he kicked out but missed luckily as the huskey was only a young girlie and she was gorgeous!!

My friend has got a staffie pup that is white with a black patch on her eye, she can jump high!! They are actually quite athletic dogs I think.


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## Damnation (4 March 2008)

It sounds more like a pitbull to me, they are bred to do this type of thing, Staffies are too but its not such a strong instinct, not in the way that it is for Pitbulls, hence why they are used in dog fights more, and need to be muzzled in public etc like Patches has said.


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## JaneMBE (4 March 2008)

Was a Staff that killed my horse, they have powerful bloody jaws..


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## DuckToller (4 March 2008)

Thanks for your concern - yes, girls ok too. 

My daughter doesn't want to talk about it anymore, when I ask her (so hard to work out exactly what happened and  when etc) she just says she told me and raises her eyes.  I am horrified that she got off and hit the dog because I feel it could have turned on her.  Also think that she acted out of instinct, but she has realised she put herself in danger and that has frightened her.  

Other girl came up Sunday to see injured pony, she had bruises on her foot but nothing to stop her jumping one of the other ponies in the school over quite a big fence!  She was the most shaken up on the day, but quite happy to talk about it the next day and seems to have bounced back.  

Obviously now a pony short for hacking, so she is quite miffed about having to share a pony with her older sister, so normal healthy reaction from horse-mad 12 year old!


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## Cahill (4 March 2008)

there are also `irish staffs`too.
(a definate type but not KC)


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## Irishcobs (4 March 2008)

I doubt it was a pitbull. They can lock their jaws so as it managed to bite both rider and ponies it would of locked on to one of them I would of thought. Staffies can be athletic if they want to be. And terriers are bloody tough things, I've seen one in a fight that was throw across the ground and still got up and started fighting again.


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## Patches (4 March 2008)

It's not necessarily the bite that kills, it's the nasty infections you are likely to suffer after a dog bite which can often cause the most damage to tissues/liagments/bones.

Terriers of any type are renowned for their locking jaws and "ragging" attack when fighting. However, a Yorkshire terrier that bites could still kill a horse because of the subsequent infection that may form.


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## Damnation (4 March 2008)

I think your daughter was freaken brave to get off and hit that dog! God knows what I would have done if it was me, and that thing was attacking my horse..  I think alot of chocolate for your daughter would be a good thing 
	
	
		
		
	


	




 It sounds like your cob knows what to do too, give the lil begger a good boot! I hope pony number 1 won't be on box rest for too long, I can't believe that the dog caused 17 staples, that thing would need to be put down for public protection in my opinion! Imagine if that was a child next..


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## dawnpetenathshir (4 March 2008)

Thats good, hope your daughter can get it off her chest soon and put it behind her.  Must have really shaken her.


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## JaneMBE (4 March 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
It's not necessarily the bite that kills, it's the nasty infections you are likely to suffer after a dog bite which can often cause the most damage to tissues/liagments/bones.

Terriers of any type are renowned for their locking jaws and "ragging" attack when fighting. However, a Yorkshire terrier that bites could still kill a horse because of the subsequent infection that may form. 

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. It was the massive infection but as it was caused by the dog, then it was the dog that killed him.


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## laura_1983 (4 March 2008)

one of our riding school rides got attacked by staffies at the end of last summer, sounds very like what happened to you and the girls! they're most definately athletic enough, my staffie cross can jump onto and over 4'/5' walls with ease! also white staffies can alot of the time be partly blind, im in no way making an excuse for the dog but if it did get a fright in the first place by not seeing the horses/ponies properly it would then attack, if anything like my staffie they dont stop until forced too! i know this because my dog attacked a puppy when we first got her and wouldnt let go until my partner kicked her on the head twice with a steel toe capped boot, i know that sounds awful and pretty brutal but she would have killed the puppy otherwise!


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## lilpinkdonkey4 (4 March 2008)

There is a bit of a hype over pitbulls... just because it was an attack doesnt mean it has to be a pitbull.

Staffies are just as likely to attack like this than any other dogs... granted pitbulls are also, but they arnt half as common as staffies... (especially as they are banned breed in the UK).

Staffies are very agile little dogs and i have known one to attack (recently - luckily horse wasnt being ridden) in exactly the same way as you described... however this could have been any breed of dog if it were trained in a certain way.... a erman shepherd, a collie, or even a westie... all dogs are unpredictable animals.


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## DuckToller (4 March 2008)

Yes, I am seriously worried still about infection.  Sorry to ask, but when did infection show up with your poor horse?


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## Patches (4 March 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's not necessarily the bite that kills, it's the nasty infections you are likely to suffer after a dog bite which can often cause the most damage to tissues/liagments/bones.

Terriers of any type are renowned for their locking jaws and "ragging" attack when fighting. However, a Yorkshire terrier that bites could still kill a horse because of the subsequent infection that may form. 

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. It was the massive infection but as it was caused by the dog, then it was the dog that killed him. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh of course, I fully agree. I was just trying to point out that it wasn't necessarily the powerful jaws of a staffie that killed your beloved horse. The bite of a smaller dog could still have ended so tragically.


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## JaneMBE (4 March 2008)

I know. Sorry if it sounded harsh, it wasn't meant to. i couldn't find which smilie to use at the end.


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## DuckToller (4 March 2008)

Our neighbour has staffies, so we are familiar with them, and they are both lovely dogs.  All four girls identified the dog as a staffie, but was wondering as the attack was so ferocious and so sustained, whether dog could have been a pitbull cross but with the various comments above, it was probably one very aggressive staffy.  My daughter has looked at pics (thanks!) and thinks the head was more like staffy.  

It must have seen the horses well enough because it ran from the car park across the road and straight to the lead horse, with its lead trailing behind.  I am keen to trace it for two reasons - I don't want it coming back and I would like to sue for vets bills!

One interesting thing - dog warden has rung all local vets and none had an injured staffie or staffie type admitted.  So perhaps bloke didn't take it to a vet?  But surely you would if it was just a pet?  Who knows...


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## Patches (4 March 2008)

Apologies here too. I didn't mean to sound like I was defending the dog that attacked Eric, that wasn't the case.

I know what I was trying to say, and it wasn't aimed at you in particular, it was just a general comment in response to the point you raised about your horse's incident. 

All dog bites can be lethal owing to infection (as we both agree 
	
	
		
		
	


	




) and we shouldn't just fear the larger, more powerful and menacing looking breeds when it comes to attacks on our horses. 

Hugs.


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## JaneMBE (4 March 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I am seriously worried still about infection.  Sorry to ask, but when did infection show up with your poor horse? 

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it was within a couple of days, his leg had swelled and was hot. I was flushing it with saline for several days. But it healed up for a time, and he was turned out to recover, it was only when he was brought back in and rolled in the stable that infection kicked in. I think because it was on the inside of his hock that it was more difficult to stop infection, but I am not certain.


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## DuckToller (4 March 2008)

How awful - your poor horse.  This wound is slightly below fetlock so am hoping it will drain well ( would post picture but never done that before and not sure how... anyone help? but might put you off your dinners...).

Going to redo bandage tomorrow, keep fingers crossed.  He is walking round his box quite sound, no sign of swelling yet but I am also afraid to look to closely in case I find something.  Might go and have a peek under end of bandage.  Vet will come tomorrow to check if I am not sure.


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## ElaineLightning (4 March 2008)

Staffords can be the same type of size and build as Pits and they are known to be high jumpers, my 7 months old SBT pup could jump the height of a 5ft fence.  As for the white-blind thing there could be something there as blindness and deafness are common problems in all white dogs, i have a deaf white Stafford.

Personally I wouldn't be worrying over what type of dog did it, I'd be questioning the owners. Im a huge beliver in bad owners not bad dogs, and Deed Not Breed. 

Staffords are know to have a high prey drive or it may have been that the dog (whatever breed) was scared so that was its form of defence of the unknown or that its prey drive hasn't been contained.  Luckily I have accustomed all my lot to all types of animals and the horses although they still try to walk in fron of the horses hooves!

Hope your horse and daughter are ok.

PS Patches you are right any Pitbull not PTS by the law has to be neutered and can never be sold or changed ownership (even for free), muzzled in public and kept on a register.


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## WoopsiiD (4 March 2008)

I have spoken to a friend who used to breed staffies and I'm sorry to say that they are more than capable of the attack. She said its not so much the athletism its the adrenalin that keeps them going the pony running off would have pushed the dogs adrenalin sky high! In that situation they are more than capable of the said attack. So it is highly possible that it was a staffie


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## piebaldsparkle (4 March 2008)

I'm glad the police are taking an interest, they did nothing when my horse was attacked by a German Shepherd (7 x puncture wounds on legs, chest and stomach).  They wouldn't even take the dog owners details as said it was an animal on animal fight 
	
	
		
		
	


	




, even though dog had also bitten my foot and it happened on a public bridleway.


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## DuckToller (4 March 2008)

It would be helpful to know the breed just in case it helps to identify the owner!  Also police will have to investigate further if we think it is a pitbull cross, but I didn't see it so can't comment.  I have never seen a white staffy, but obviously they do come in white so it probably was a staffy in all likelihood.  

I think the man was unlucky in the timing aspect, I suspect he was still getting out of his car and in my original report (more detailed!) there was another bloke with two rottweilers and a lab who was with him but walking ahead.  

The rottweilers ran up first (not on leads), and they were barking and snapping at the horses' heels, and the cob was busy trying to kick them when the white dog ran across from the car park, straight across the road and jumped up at the child on the front pony.  

So the rottweilers kind of kicked the whole incident off, but they were quickly caught and didn't bite, they just barked and their barking alerted the staffy-type who just went straight in for a fight.  All very quick and very frightening.


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## JaneMBE (4 March 2008)

wishing him all the best positive thoughts and hope he makes a quick recovery.
Whenever there is a post on here about dogs and bites, I am in two minds about posting, because my horse was not lucky and I don't want to upset and worry anyone. 
	
	
		
		
	


	




However, when I first joined here to ask advice about it, there were so many positive stories and support; whilst I was extremely unlucky, others have been able to make a good recovery; so think positive 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I am always around to offer a shoulder x


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## DuckToller (4 March 2008)

Thanks.  Was lucky in that the vet came out within an hour and pumped him full of antibiotics, but of course that's no guarantee.  Know we are not out of woods yet...


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## trundle (4 March 2008)

Really sorry to hear about this incident - the one small mercy is that your daughter was not hurt by the dog, and I really hope your pony will be all right.  

The fact that the owner doesn't appear to have taken the dog to a legit vet in the area makes me wonder if it might be a fighting dog - the sheer level of aggression, and the part about its eyes seeming glazed add to this possible impression. Lots of fighting dogs are drugged, both to psyche them up to fight and to make them safe to handle when not fighting. Its possible that the police also think this may be linked to dog-fighting and hence are investigating it more thoroughly than they would an "ordinary" dog bite incident.


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## DuckToller (4 March 2008)

Yes, glad you agree, I thought it was odd as several good vets nearby including Royal Vet College, and not many open on a Saturday afternoon which narrows it down.  As it was the dog warden who rang them, they have to tell her if it has been admitted so it's not because they are not saying.  

Although I suppose it could have come from miles away and been driven a long way home to local vet, but unlikely...


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## SpruceRI (5 March 2008)

Dogs do seem to get into a frenzy also when there's a lot of barking going on, quite often they don't seem to be able to relate to what's going on and just attack anything that moves.

2 recent events come to mind.

My Dad has 3 dogs which went into kennels in the summer.  The kennel maid was walking 2 of Dad's dogs past another kennel where a dog was eating his dinner.  

The dog in the kennel growled, and one of my Dad's dogs turned on the other and started a huge fight even though they'd lived together for yonks and never showed any signs of agression towards each other before.

 The kennel maid was able to split the dogs up, one was badly bit and needed a swift visit to the vets for stitches.

And recently a colleagues wife got bitten when her own dog was attacked by a greyhound.  Again, there was frenzied barking going on and the 2nd greyhound bit the lady on the backside whilst his owner was furiously trying to drag his other dog off the lady's poor pet.

I wonder whether the barking of the Alsations set this white dog off into his attacking frenzy.  Sounds like his owner wasn't much use and very cowardly to leave children and their pets injured like that.

I hope they all recover and the Police can track this owner down.


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## Tharg (5 March 2008)

I doubt it got a fright since it dashed across a road to get to the ponies!


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## Pedantic (5 March 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad the police are taking an interest, they did nothing when my horse was attacked by a German Shepherd (7 x puncture wounds on legs, chest and stomach).  They wouldn't even take the dog owners details as said it was an animal on animal fight 
	
	
		
		
	


	




, even though dog had also bitten my foot and it happened on a public bridleway. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Well they do have more important things to do like eat dougnuts and drink coffee and play on funfair rides while on duty.


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## custard (5 March 2008)

[quoteWell they do have more important things to do like eat dougnuts and drink coffee and play on funfair rides while on duty. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you do anything but moan about the Police? If you can't say anything constructive find somewhere else to whine.

Anyway to the OP re: what a pit bull looks like I can't honestly say anymore but Patches posted some pics and I'd say 99% of the dogs our local chav's are dragging round are crosses between the two.  They are like a taller Staffy about double in size overall and butt ugly to boot.  It's supposed to be an offence to breed them but not to own one, God only knows how you prove what they are and they seem to be everywhere.

Keep the pressure on your local Police.  From experience any dog bites I've come across have been dealt with properly and robustly and have seen some serious injuries result in the dog being destroyed and the owner prosecuted so keep on at them.


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## Vicki1986 (5 March 2008)

hmm ive never seen a White Staff - but doesnt mean it couldnt be a cross.

White comment automatically makes me think of an english putbull... someone has posted a pic of above also.

A staff would be quite capable of attacking and chasing as described IMO.


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## DuckToller (5 March 2008)

Who would know if you can get a white staffy - Kennel Club?  Because if you can't, it must be a cross which might explain the frenzy...

It def wasn't English bull terrier as we have friends with two of those and so my daughter would recognise that breed.  It definitely had the wide head of a staffy type, with the flat top. 

She has said that it had really weird eyes, like black holes, and an unfriendly face, more alert and focused than most staffies.  (That's going by our neighbour's two who she feeds sometimes, they are quite soft and daft-looking with their big wide grins, this dog didn't have the same look but then it wouldn't have at the time, I suppose...)


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## Weezy (5 March 2008)

Good lord - I missed your original post about this 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  How utterly terrifying for all involved.  I do hope you track the owner down - this needs to be addressed ASAP.


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## OWLIE185 (5 March 2008)

If the police are now doing something I would suggest that you get them to instruct their artist to create a poster with a picture of both the gentleman and the dogs concerned and then get it put up in the area where the attack occurred as well as circulated to all the local vets, dog kennells, dog training clubs  and breeders.

We have big problems in North Herts with Hare Coursing and some of the dogs they leave behind (because they are no good) or loose are seriously viscious and even the local dog warden has problems capturing them.

I have made everyone in the local BHS Hertfordshire Committeee aware of this attack as someone may hear or see something but if you want the dogs and owners aprehended then I would suggest posters in the area where the attack took place.  No one wants their children, relatives, friends, dogs and horses attacked by dogs so I should think that people will be very sympathetic to your cause of catching the perorators of this incident.  With a bit of luck the local papers report may also help to find them.


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## Chestnuttymare (5 March 2008)

What a horrible experience for ponies and kids alike. Hope they are all ok.

You do get white staffies, so may not be x. Pitbulls vary in height and looks to be honest. That is why they are often described as a 'pitbull type'. There is a breed standard but many are so badly bred that they don't always look like the standard. They don't actually lock their jaws, that is a bit of a myth, it is just that they have such incredible strength in their jaws that it seems that way. They have a tremendously high tolerance to pain, that is why even if the pony was kicking ten bells out of it, it would just keep coming back.
They are a banned breed and had the law been adhered to in the 90's ie neutering, speying etc, then there would be no more pitbulls here. Unfortunately it wasn't/isn't  policed properly and they are still evident in the uk. I am sure there are nice pitbulls out there but this one obviously wasn't and I hope it and its irresponsible owner are caught.


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