# Is racing cruel? What about dressage?



## Pretty_Podenco (7 May 2012)

I work in racing and am getting increasingly fed up of people complaining about the sport and also going on about how TB's need to be 'rehabilitated'.

I never give my opinion on these forums but have decided to give my honest opinion...

Has anyone ever thought about how they keep their own horses and what kind of lives they actually do have? Dressage horses for example seem to be generally kept inside, rugged up to the eyeballs and wrapped up in cotton wool then brought out once a day to be ponced around in an indoor school with their heads pinned into unnatural positions (obviously the finished product looks lovely in the competion arena but no one seems to care what the horses have been throught to get to that stage) and ridden in a double bridle (whats that all about BTW?). 

Whereas a TB may be usually kept inside while in training but more often than not gets to go out in the off season and usually in afternoons. They go out and canter and gallop everyday in a snaffle. And racing is actually the closest sport to what a horse does naturally (its a flight animal after all) while other sports seem to be all about restricting a horses natural instincts.

As far as rehabilitaion goes...
All racehorses go in a snaffle, canter and gallop in front or behind or upsides and will go out alone or in company as well as jumping anything put in front of them. And contrary to popular belief, they are not taught to pull and run off with people, they are actually taught to settle and chill out. 

I think TB's are amazing and deserve much more respect than they seem to get in this country!


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## Farma (7 May 2012)

I think your perceptions of dressage are possibly as misguided as the perceptions of racing you are attacking.

Btw I don't think at the last major dressage event any horses were seriously injured...can't say the same for the latest grand national.


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## Miss L Toe (7 May 2012)

I worked in racing and generally have to agree with you, BUT a lot of riders who buy them would not get a job in racing because they are not good enough, and have little understanding of the horse. 
Horses are sold out of racing, often to those who can least afford a horse, and then the trouble begins..........


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## Farma (7 May 2012)

Miss L Toe said:



			I worked in racing and have to agree with you, BUT a lot of riders who buy them would not get a job in racing because they are not good enough, and have little understanding of the horse. 
Horses are sold out of racing, often to those who can least afford a horse, and then the trouble begins..........
		
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Totally agree with this.


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## Kiribati_uk (7 May 2012)

Pretty_Podenco said:



			I work in racing and am getting increasingly fed up of people complaining about the sport and also going on about how TB's need to be 'rehabilitated'.

I never give my opinion on these forums but have decided to give my honest opinion...

Has anyone ever thought about how they keep their own horses and what kind of lives they actually do have? Dressage horses for example seem to be generally kept inside, rugged up to the eyeballs and wrapped up in cotton wool then brought out once a day to be ponced around in an indoor school with their heads pinned into unnatural positions (obviously the finished product looks lovely in the competion arena but no one seems to care what the horses have been throught to get to that stage) and ridden in a double bridle (whats that all about BTW?). 

Whereas a TB may be usually kept inside while in training but more often than not gets to go out in the off season and usually in afternoons. They go out and canter and gallop everyday in a snaffle. And racing is actually the closest sport to what a horse does naturally (its a flight animal after all) while other sports seem to be all about restricting a horses natural instincts.

As far as rehabilitaion goes...
All racehorses go in a snaffle, canter and gallop in front or behind or upsides and will go out alone or in company as well as jumping anything put in front of them. And contrary to popular belief, they are not taught to pull and run off with people, they are actually taught to settle and chill out. 

I think TB's are amazing and deserve much more respect than they seem to get in this country!
		
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WELL SAID!!!!!!!!
and another thing I dont understand is show horses why do they need to be obese, the are more happy hacker horses that are mistreated than racehorses.


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## popsdosh (7 May 2012)

Farma said:



			I think your perceptions of dressage are possibly as misguided as the perceptions of racing you are attacking.

Btw I don't think at the last major dressage event any horses were seriously injured...can't say the same for the latest grand national.
		
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Perhaps the dressage horses are injured but less publicly.My vets are racecourse vets yet still put down more dressage horses through injury than racehorses.
I have no problems with either discipline just hate ill informed sniping.


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## Goldenstar (7 May 2012)

Bad practice is bad practice does not matter which sport it's in.
Deaths while racing is something Which racing has to answer for its self .
attacking dressage won't help one bit and it has to be said many people do attack dressage.
Rehab may be a wrong way to describe it but horses out of training do need reschooling and training for their new life .
OP post seems very defensive to me as I said earlier racing needs to find a way forward not slag off others.


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## Goldenstar (7 May 2012)

PS will plead guilty to slagging off fat show horses just don't get that at all.


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## boxcarhorse (7 May 2012)

I think to be fair, these day's dressage horses have much more 'normal' lives -led by the likes of Carl Hester and the Betchloscheimers.  All the dressage horses I know are turned out regularly and hacked out - and that is considered part of their management and considered the best way to get optimum performance.

But you're right, I don't think racing is any more cruel than any other equine competition sport.  It's just that it's in the public eye.  Dressage isn't exactly a huge spectator sport.  Horses breakdown in dressage and show jumping too... I think perhaps the difference is there are less fatalities.  Dressage horses are unlikely to break a leg - although quite likely to get suspensory injuries for example.


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## eva (7 May 2012)

I tell you what's cruel, it's polo.


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## B-B (7 May 2012)

Dressage isnt meant to be cruel to the horse, just the rider


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## PucciNPoni (8 May 2012)

boxcarhorse said:



			I think to be fair, these day's dressage horses have much more 'normal' lives -led by the likes of Carl Hester and the Betchloscheimers.  All the dressage horses I know are turned out regularly and hacked out - and that is considered part of their management and considered the best way to get optimum performance.

But you're right, I don't think racing is any more cruel than any other equine competition sport.  It's just that it's in the public eye.  Dressage isn't exactly a huge spectator sport.  Horses breakdown in dressage and show jumping too... I think perhaps the difference is there are less fatalities.  Dressage horses are unlikely to break a leg - although quite likely to get suspensory injuries for example.
		
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My thoughts exactly.


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## PucciNPoni (8 May 2012)

Here's randomish thought:

Racing is demonised by the masses because it's on TV and in the betting shops -- so when something goes wrong, the general public sees it, not just the horsey set.  On a unhorsey forum someone stated that there was absolutely no need to run a 14 yo at the GN, that it was cruel.  My reply was that it sounded like really good horse-keeping management that allowed a 14 to stay sound/fit enough to run it!

I think IN PART the reason that ex-racers have become so popular NOT JUST BECAUSE they're cheap, but because people LOVE to "rescue".  They love to be able to say that THEY made an animal's life better because they took it on.  I've heard people say that when they rehomed an older (2, 3, 4 years old) dog from someone who could no longer keep it that it was a "rescue" simply because when they acquired it, it wasn't a cute puppy.

Rehab is probably a bit strong, retrained sure.  But I think it's just a label that goes with the whole "rescue" thing.  And many folk like to have that "I rescued a poor horse, and made him wonderful" image.

Disclaimer, I KNOW not all people who retrain racehorses do this for that reason, but there are many who do!


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## cptrayes (8 May 2012)

Pretty_Podenco said:



			going on about how TB's need to be 'rehabilitated'.
		
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I call it rehabilitated because of the enormous character change that I have seen in every racer that I have bought straight out of racing. They arrived like little automatons and then learnt to play and be what I would call a normal horse over several months.



Pretty_Podenco said:



			Has anyone ever thought about how they keep their own horses and what kind of lives they actually do have?
		
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Yes, much better than any racehorse's in several respects.



Pretty_Podenco said:



			And racing is actually the closest sport to what a horse does naturally (its a flight animal after all) while other sports seem to be all about restricting a horses natural instincts.
		
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This is a good point but I've seen plenty of passage, piaffe and pirouette going on in my field 




Pretty_Podenco said:



			All racehorses go in a snaffle, canter and gallop in front or behind or upsides.
		
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May be you haven't seen them being rehabilitated out on hacks. A substantial number of them go completely beserk if left behind and many of them are very difficult to handle unless they are always in front. They aren't alone in this of course, but my experience is that the proportion of ex racers like it is higher than other horses. 




Pretty_Podenco said:



			and will go out alone or in company
		
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And this is just not true. I have had to teach every one I have had to hack alone. Some were so used to working in a string that they would nap like hell asked to go out alone. 




Pretty_Podenco said:



			I think TB's are amazing and deserve much more respect than they seem to get in this country!
		
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I think they are amazing too but I had to give up buying and retraining them because it became too  difficult to find good homes to sell them to. The market is absolutely flooded with failed racers coming through the sales at under £1000.


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## FreddiesGal (8 May 2012)

Totally agree with everything you have just said. And i'm glad someone said it!


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## Caledonia (8 May 2012)

Taking a horse straight out of training and expecting it to adapt to a different regime is misunderstanding the horse and the breed. 

To rehab successfully, most racehorses need to be let down for at least 3 months. These are animals full of the necessary fuel, fit and ready to do little more than gallop as fast as they can for as long as they can. They need to lose the muscles that enabled them to run, and the fitness with the accompanying attitude that focuses their minds on racing and galloping. 

Sprinters and horses that have raced only as 2yos are probably the most tricky to rehab, but it's understanding their triggers. There will be horses that cannot be anything other than racers, those that are difficult to adapt to being hackers, especially in the wrong hands, but the same applies to some sports horses too. 

I get seriously annoyed at people who say that all TBs are difficult. With most of the horses that come out of racing it's only those that don't prepare the rehab properly that regularly have problems. Napping horses are insecure horses. 

It is disingenuous to suggest that the movements a horse performs in a field are in any way related to the dressage arena. I've never seen a horse piaffe naturally? Or turn a full pirouette (as defined by dressage) naturally either? Sure, they run around with their tails up, maybe a bit of passage, or a spin round in canter, but not engaged (or restricted) the way dressage horses are. 

However, horses do gallop exactly the same way on the course as they do in a field.


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## Firewell (8 May 2012)

I agree. Like any discipline, it depends on the trainer and owners though obviously as some are pretty horrendous to their horses and some treat them like kings.
Iv'e never found any of our ex-racers hard to retrain. They all had nice light mouths, most importantly move forwards off the leg well and have beautiful stable manners. Mine and my mums late one had obviously lived pretty charmed lives before we got them, they were both very happy established characters.
My mums new one is much more shy and very nervous, he flinches if you are not careful to move queitly around him. He has obviously been treated more as a number.
Every one was a beautiful blank canvas to work with under saddle though! Yes they had to be taught to carry themselves differently, use different muscles ect but they were so lovely and unspoilt .


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## Super_Kat (8 May 2012)

eva said:



			I tell you what's cruel, it's polo.
		
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Why?


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## cptrayes (8 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Taking a horse straight out of training and expecting it to adapt to a different regime is misunderstanding the horse and the breed.
		
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Can you please tell me how to take a horse out of racing without asking it to adapt to a different regime? "Letting it down" IS asking it to adapt to a different regime. 



Caledonia said:



			I get seriously annoyed at people who say that all TBs are difficult.
		
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I have not seen anybody do so.



Caledonia said:



			Napping horses are insecure horses.
		
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No shhit Sherlock  !!




Caledonia said:



			It is disingenuous to suggest that the movements a horse performs in a field are in any way related to the dressage arena. I've never seen a horse piaffe naturally? Or turn a full pirouette (as defined by dressage) naturally either? Sure, they run around with their tails up, maybe a bit of passage, or a spin round in canter, but not engaged (or restricted) the way dressage horses are.
		
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You've never seen horses do dressage movements in the field? You've been watching the wrong horses. I've even seen a little flat racer do a perfect passage across the field and piaffe while waiting at the gate to come in. 

You don't ride dressage, do you? My horse could not do tempi changes or extended trot if he was "restricted".  Not all of us train using rollkur!


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## TarrSteps (8 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			It is disingenuous to suggest that the movements a horse performs in a field are in any way related to the dressage arena. I've never seen a horse piaffe naturally? Or turn a full pirouette (as defined by dressage) naturally either? Sure, they run around with their tails up, maybe a bit of passage, or a spin round in canter, but not engaged (or restricted) the way dressage horses are. 

However, horses do gallop exactly the same way on the course as they do in a field.
		
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I'm not getting in to the debate but I must respectfully disagree on these points, just as a matter of interest.

I have definitely seen horses, especially ones bred for the job offer these movements.  And, even more interestingly, I had a very athletic, forward thinking three year old properly sit and piaffe the other day because he was fresh and full of himself annoyed at being asked to work in the rain.   It was not the stiff backed pseudo passage, it was hocks under and power up.  Followed by a very creditable levade.   I've heard Balkenhol joke he starts to teach piaffe by taking the young horses out hacking towards feeding time then restraining them on the way home and giving them a pat when they offer a few steps.   So, yes, there are many horses who can offer this naturally in the same way that many TBs gallop well without any training. (Although there are others that DO need help - arguably not natural racehorses.)

Re running in the field, of course they offer this.  But they don't all have the drive to get their noses in front - in fact studies show this has more to do with herd rank than flat out speed, which has also been my observation - and they certainly don't voluntarily run until they're exhausted unless they are very upset.  Ditto jumping, the vast majority of horses are perfectly capable of setting out over their paddock fences and across the country, but they don't.  The few that do are a massive pain!

Which is nothing to do with the OP but "natural" really doesn't come into any horse sport conversation, either as an excuse or a damnation.  

I just love horse people.  It's like high school.


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## Caledonia (8 May 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			I'm not getting in to the debate but I must respectfully disagree on these points, just as a matter of interest.

I have definitely seen horses, especially ones bred for the job offer these movements.  And, even more interestingly, I had a very athletic, forward thinking three year old properly sit and piaffe the other day because he was fresh and full of himself annoyed at being asked to work in the rain.   It was not the stiff backed pseudo passage, it was hocks under and power up.  Followed by a very creditable levade.   I've heard Balkenhol joke he starts to teach piaffe by taking the young horses out hacking towards feeding time then restraining them on the way home and giving them a pat when they offer a few steps.   So, yes, there are many horses who can offer this naturally in the same way that many TBs gallop well without any training. (Although there are others that DO need help - arguably not natural racehorses.)
		
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My disagreement was a horse doing piaffe, on it's own, in a field. You seem to be talking about one being worked?


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## TarrSteps (8 May 2012)

The young horse was on a headcollar, so yes, being "restrained", but not in any way forcefully or unusually the dressage horses are not being "asked" for the movement, but offering it yes, in answer to restraining aids.  As is the horse mentioned at the gate.  But life is full of restraining aids so yes, it is a movement horses offer "naturally" when their desire to go thwarted is denied.  (I once saw a deer weave when waiting its turn with a herd going through a natural gap - so much for completely man made.  )  But they are not being beater or forced as you imply.  Which is not to say some AREN'T forced to produce the movement but I think you might possibly have underestimated how much of that sort of thing is the result of selective breeding, where horses display their thoughts in the ways that are most physically available to them.  Like, in other cases, running in a straight line.

Are you no race horses are ever forced to do anything related to the sport?  I completely agree two wrongs don't make a right but then that's kinda my point. 

I have certainly seen many horses "run for fun" but not usually to the point of being covered in sweat and they stop when they feel like it.  I used to gallop horses on a farm where they track ran around the yearling field and definitely, the young horses used to gang up and go quite often when I galloped by.  It was great fun.  But it was also a tiny percentage of their time during the day and they quickly lost interest.  Most of the time they ate or slept, some of the time they played, a bit of the time they did some running.  Most of the time when I've seen "at liberty" horses run until they look like racehorses at the end of it, it hasn't been solely for fun.

By the way, it's pretty much impossible to force a horse to piaffe if it doesn't have natural ability and inclination.  Even within 20 years there used to be horses even at Olympic level that simply didn't do it, no matter what aids were applied.  Many shuffled on the spot, a few opted out all together.  Classes of horses that piaffe well are a VERY new situation and most definitely down to refinements in breeding.

I'm quite in favour of horses having jobs.  But I'm also a believer that honest assessment and learning about other people's lives and how they're lived is the only route to real debate.  How can you argue that people don't know race horses because they've never worked with them at the top level, unless you apply the same criteria to other sports?


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## Caledonia (8 May 2012)

cptrayes said:



			Can you please tell me how to take a horse out of racing without asking it to adapt to a different regime? "Letting it down" IS asking it to adapt to a different regime.


I have not seen anybody do so.



No shhit Sherlock  !!




You've never seen horses do dressage movements in the field? You've been watching the wrong horses. I've even seen a little flat racer do a perfect passage across the field and piaffe while waiting at the gate to come in. 

You don't ride dressage, do you? My horse could not do tempi changes or extended trot if he was "restricted".  Not all of us train using rollkur!
		
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Letting down is letting down. Stopping working to allow the horse's muscles to soften and change. 

Cptrayes, read what I wrote - I questioned full on pirouette and piaffe done freely in a field. I did actually say that they will do passage and spin round..... 
Piaffe at a gate? I stand corrected. I have luckily not seen anything as stressed as that. Although that is not relevant to what is being referred to here, ie a horse happily playing in a field. 

And why do you (wrongly) assume I don't 'ride dressage'? Because I follow racing?


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## Elf On A Shelf (8 May 2012)

I don't think making a comparison to dressage will work. Yes in dressage you get some trainers who use the Rolkur method, others  use blood, sweat and tears and others again use every method in between. Because of the high level of movements required of top horses they are more likely to do ligaments and have joint issues. But so will racehorses for different reasons. 

Then you get show jumpers who will be bending and flexing in every way imaginable and jumping huge fences from the bottom of the fence and thus need more power behind and in their legs and they need good strong pins up front to land on. Again a recipe for tendon, ligament and joint damage.

Show horses - joint problems, ligaments, tendons - all for different reasons that the above discaplines.

Eventing - as above.

Happy hacking - galloping across uneven ground, on the wrong ground, by inexperienced people (not all!) again leads to joint, tendon and ligament problems.

Turning out in a field - well anything and everything can happen there!

Everything we ask our horses to do involves risk. What owners, trainers and riders do - in all discaplines - is train and work their horses to minimise the risks. If a horse doesn't jump well it won't be asked to do it competatively until it can. If a horse clearly has no interest in the job it is being asked to do then it will generally be found a new one. I highly doubt that anyone in their right minds would try and make a horse do something it is clearly not capable of. What would be the point in wasting time and money on what, in their field of competition, is a complete donkey and waste of space? None at all! May as well quit whilst they are ahead and find a job that it is capable of or likes doing.

The racing yard I work on tries to keep life varied and interesting for the horses. These horses are very lucky. They get turned out for a minimum of 3 hours every 3 days (due to the high number of horses we have and the lack of turnout grazing) and they always go out in pairs or groups of 4. They all get ridden out everyday along roads mostly. They are on the gallops 5 days a week. Again due to the high number of horses sometimes horses will have to work on their own up the gallops and go home on their own. Rarely do they go out to the gallops on their own though. Once or twice a week they all hack out. Sometimes in groups of 3, sometimes a pair and I like taking mine out on their own, going down the Loch and having a bit of a yeehaa. It keeps them happy and interested. I know that most yards don't/can't/won't do any of the above but the value of turning horses out and keeping them sweet is blossoming into more and more trainers heads. Yes we have horses that we don't turn out until their holidays because they either can't cope with being in the field or they are sods that kick. Risk assessment - we will not turn out a kicker so we don't harm their field companions whilst in training. 

Comparing different aspects of the horse world is null and void. It's the same as trying to compare a Lawyer to Surgeon. Both masters of their field, both went through extensive training, both masters of their crafts but both very different and both exposed to very different risks associated with their jobs.


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## Caledonia (8 May 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			The young horse was on a headcollar, so yes, being "restrained", the dressage horses are not being "asked" for the movement, but offering it yes, in answer to restraining aids.  As is the horse mentioned at the gate.  But life is full of restraining aids so yes, it is a movement horses offer "naturally" when their desire to go thwarted is denied.  (I once saw a deer weave when waiting its turn with a herd going through a natural gap - so much for completely man made.  )  But they are not being beater or forced as you imply.  Which is not to say some AREN'T forced to produce the movement but I think you might possibly have underestimated how much of that sort of thing is the result of selective breeding, where horses display their thoughts in the ways that are most physically available to them.  Like, in other cases, running in a straight line.

Are you no race horses are ever forced to do anything related to the sport?  I completely agree two wrongs don't make a right but then that's kinda my point. 

I have certainly seen many horses "run for fun" but not usually to the point of being covered in sweat and they stop when they feel like it.  I used to gallop horses on a farm where they track ran around the yearling field and definitely, the young horses used to gang up and go quite often when I galloped by.  It was great fun.  But it was also a tiny percentage of their time during the day and they quickly lost interest.  Most of the time they ate or slept, some of the time they played, a bit of the time they did some running.  

By the way, it's pretty much impossible to force a horse to piaffe if it doesn't have natural ability and inclination.  Even within 20 years there used to be horses even at Olympic level that simply didn't do it, no matter what aids were applied.  Many shuffled on the spot, a few opted out all together.  Classes of horses that piaffe well are a VERY new situation and most definitely down to refinements in breeding.
		
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Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not using any one sport against the other. I am objecting to those that would have racing as the root of all evil, whilst every other discipline is squeaky clean. 
ETA - where did I say dressage horses were beaten or forced :-O

And yes, a horse in a headcollar is completely different to what I am referring to. All sorts of horses will do that - I've handled a stallion about to cover a mare who had that perfected. 

I have never, and can't believe would ever be likely to, seen a horse, in the middle of a field, with no external pressures, doing piaffe.


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## TarrSteps (8 May 2012)

But if the argument is that racing is "natural" and other sports are not, how is that pertinent?  Horses do run on their own, but rarely to the level that race horses do without external or internal (can't be underestimated) pressure.  Is the argument that all racehorses are enjoying themselves all the time?  That no upper level horses are enjoying themselves ever?

I do understand that you are saying that that the sports are not competition for good or bad, but isn't saying "horses don't do dressage movements naturally so that means it must be worse" exactly that?  If we're going to play that game I can tell you, there are no winners.  Not that it's relevant but I've worked/taken part in in racing, dressage, eventing, AQHA, polo, Arab showing, hunter/jumpers, endurance, line showing, mounted games, a bit of driving . . . I would say it's about equal, honestly. I would also say one of the MOST important keys to having a happy, successful horse is to pick a horse suited to the task and don't persevere with one that isn't.  Also to be educated and empathetic and honest about how the horses are managed and trained.  Simple. 

I do think it's a slippery slope, by the way.  There are some quite organised groups in the world that firmly believe animals should not be used for entertainment.  In fact there are a few places in the US where any such shows or events have been successfully banned on by-laws.  It's a balance - how do you be seen to be taking good care without admitting that there are risks in the first place?  I actually think it's a debate more horse people could stand to consider NOT by bashing others, but by finding out how other people do things and what effects it has.  Generally, though, I don't find a lot of horse people, sadly, are so keen.  (Interestingly, most of the great horsemen I've seen in any discipline are very interested and keen to learn about other areas.  Because they are interested in HORSES not just racing/dressage/polo/driving etc.)


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## Caledonia (8 May 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			But if the argument is that racing is "natural" and other sports are not, how is that pertinent?  Horses do run on their own, but rarely to the level that race horses do without external or internal (can't be underestimated) pressure.  Is the argument that all racehorses are enjoying themselves all the time?  That no upper level horses are enjoying themselves ever?
I do understand that you are saying that that the sports are not competition for good or bad, but isn't saying "horses don't do dressage movements naturally so that means it must be worse" exactly that?  If we're going to play that game I can tell you, there are no winners.  Not that it's relevant but I've worked/taken part in in racing, dressage, eventing, AQHA, polo, Arab showing, hunter/jumpers, endurance, line showing, mounted games, a bit of driving . . . I would say it's about equal, honestly. I would also say one of the MOST important keys to having a happy, successful horse is to pick a horse suited to the task and don't persevere with one that isn't.  Also to be educated and empathetic and honest about how the horses are managed and trained.  Simple. 

I do think it's a slippery slope, by the way.  There are some quite organised groups in the world that firmly believe animals should not be used for entertainment.  In fact there are a few places in the US where any such shows or events have been successfully banned on by-laws.  It's a balance - how do you be seen to be taking good care without admitting that there are risks in the first place?  I actually think it's a debate more horse people could stand to consider NOT by bashing others, but by finding out how other people do things and what effects it has.  Generally, though, I don't find a lot of horse people, sadly, are so keen.  (Interestingly, most of the great horsemen I've seen in any discipline are very interested and keen to learn about other areas.  Because they are interested in HORSES not just racing/dressage/polo/driving etc.)
		
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I didn't say at any point that racing was natural? I Also didn't say that horses don't do dressage movements naturally? Perhaps I should have bolded this part in red to make my point clearer?

I said - _''It is disingenuous to suggest that the movements a horse performs in a field are in any way related to the dressage arena. I've never seen a horse piaffe naturally? Or turn a full pirouette (as defined by dressage) naturally either? Sure, they run around with their tails up, maybe a bit of passage, or a spin round in canter, but not engaged (or restricted) the way dressage horses are.

However, horses do gallop exactly the same way on the course as they do in a field.'' _

ETA, what I'm trying to say is the actual steps and body shape of a horse galloping freely in a race, are the same steps and body shape of a horse in a field galloping, or at least thats the plan, unless they pull.  

I have also worked in several disciplines, though not as extensive a list as yours, and I agree with you!! That is the point I am trying to get across, that racing is no worse than any other section of the horseworld. 

I don't see why you think I'm knocking any particular section?

This thread is a follow on to one that ran for many pages over the last few days, I'm not supporting the OP title in any way. I'm just sick of the shortsightedness of the racing bashers who refuse to see that pretty much all sports have unpleasant as well as positive aspects to them, they just differ. 

And yes, that shortsightedness will lead to the demise of all equestrian sports if the horse world doesn't support each other.


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## TarrSteps (8 May 2012)

Then I have misunderstood and I apologise.  I understood that you were arguing that because the act of running is natural to horses - presumably as in not something that would be forced - then it has, by definition, less chance of being harmful and/or resulting in people using force.  I don't think saying horses run naturally is a defence any more than saying no horses ever demonstrate piaffe is an attack.  And I do know I'm splitting hairs but then we are both arguing that knowledge is the key and careful consideration of other people's truths is the way forward.

I have no knowledge of the other thread so can't comment.  My only underlying point was that almost everything we ask of horses in sport DOES have its roots in what horses offer naturally but that is really neither here nor there regarding HOW people exploit those tedancies or inclinations.  

I would definitely agree, some of the most vociferous attackers of racing (and most other high profile areas to be fair) live in glass houses.  Alas, I don't think any of us are going to convince them of that, though.  I do again make the point to them though that the are MANY people in the world who believe keeping and riding horses is inherently cruel.  I would be interested to know why they do not see that they are on the same continuum - a pony put down from the effects of overconsumption is just as dead as a horse that's broken a leg on the gallops.  

I did not get that feeling from the OP though.  I thought that was much more, "Yeah? Well, you're worse than us so there.". Which is just the same argument!

I do genuinely understand why racing people get upset.  I have my own views - from experience - but it's not for me to say.  I do think the huge number of "failed" tb's coming into the riding market, while a blessing for many, does sometimes give the impression that it is a sport with a huge attrition, which is perhaps confusing to people who are simultaneously being told that it is, in fact, all about the horses and never about money or ambition.  Obviously it is often about money and ambition (as are most sports at the top end, although I might argue there are many more people involved in racing who are not, actually, hands on horsemen) and while that doesn't make it "bad" it does mean there are pressures to bear.  Anthough maybe one could argue that saying you're only in it for the love of riding and THEN hurting the horse, intentionally or otherwise, is worse! 

I'll confess my bias and it's totally irrational.  I love Cheltenham, but I won't go to The National.  It's a numbers game to me.  I prefer NH to Flat, again because of what I've seen.  

That said, you could not get me back into AQHA.


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## Caledonia (8 May 2012)

TarrSteps said:



			Then I have misunderstood and I apologise.  I understood that you were arguing that because the act of running is natural to horses - presumably as in not something that would be forced - then it has, by definition, less chance of being harmful and/or resulting in people using force.  I don't think saying horses run naturally is a defence any more than saying no horses ever demonstrate piaffe is an attack.  And I do know I'm splitting hairs but then we are both arguing that knowledge is the key and careful consideration of other people's truths is the way forward.

I have no knowledge of the other thread so can't comment.  My only underlying point was that almost everything we ask of horses in sport DOES have its roots in what horses offer naturally but that is really neither here nor there regarding HOW people exploit those tedancies or inclinations.  

I would definitely agree, some of the most vociferous attackers of racing (and most other high profile areas to be fair) live in glass houses.  Alas, I don't think any of us are going to convince them of that, though.  I do again make the point to them though that the are MANY people in the world who believe keeping and riding horses is inherently cruel.  I would be interested to know why they do not see that they are on the same continuum - a pony put down from the effects of overconsumption is just as dead as a horse that's broken a leg on the gallops.  

I did not get that feeling from the OP though.  I thought that was much more, "Yeah? Well, you're worse than us so there.". Which is just the same argument!

I do genuinely understand why racing people get upset.  I have my own views - from experience - but it's not for me to say.  I do think the huge number of "failed" tb's coming into the riding market, while a blessing for many, does sometimes give the impression that it is a sport with a huge attrition, which is perhaps confusing to people who are simultaneously being told that it is, in fact, all about the horses and never about money or ambition.  Obviously it is often about money and ambition (as are most sports at the top end, although I might argue there are many more people involved in racing who are not, actually, hands on horsemen) and while that doesn't make it "bad" it does mean there are pressures to bear.  Anthough maybe one could argue that saying you're only in it for the love of riding and THEN hurting the horse, intentionally or otherwise, is worse! 

I'll confess my bias and it's totally irrational.  I love Cheltenham, but I won't go to The National.  It's a numbers game to me.  I prefer NH to Flat, again because of what I've seen.  

That said, you could not get me back into AQHA. 

Click to expand...

Thanks - I guess as this was a follow on from the previous thread, I didn't feel the need to repeat myself, so I can see how you might have misconstrued what I meant, coming in cold, as it were. 

We seem to be singing from the same sheet, other than that I don't think Aintree any worse that Cheltenham.


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## cptrayes (8 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			Letting down is letting down. Stopping working to allow the horse's muscles to soften and change.
		
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And you arrogantly assumed that I didn't do that, didn't you? 



Caledonia said:



			Cptrayes, read what I wrote - I questioned full on pirouette and piaffe done freely in a field.
		
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I read the fact that you accuse me of lying when I say that I have seen horses do full on piaffe, passage, pirouette, courbette, half pass and pretty much every other dressage/classical movement free in the field. You just haven't watched enough horses with the freedom and exhuberance to do it. 




Caledonia said:



			Piaffe at a gate? I stand corrected. I have luckily not seen anything as stressed as that.
		
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The piaffe at the gate horse wanted his tea. Do you not stress your horses by offering them food  ?

Caledonia, can I just say, I find that level of argument very childish. Suggesting that my horses are stressed just because I have seen one piaffe at a gate is neither logical nor polite.  

In case you have not seen them either, there are ex racing TBs that have been so institutionalised that they beg at the gate to be allowed to go back into a stable, presumably where they feel safer than out in the open in company.  Again, this is not behaviour exclusive to ex racers, but my impression is that there are more ex racers who do it than any other type of horse.




Caledonia said:



			And why do you (wrongly) assume I don't 'ride dressage'? Because I follow racing?
		
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Because if you ride dressage and think that the movements are forced, you don't ride my kind of dressage, sorry.  

Since I was incorrect, I apologise for the assumption that you do not ride dressage.


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## cptrayes (8 May 2012)

Caledonia said:



			. I'm just sick of the shortsightedness of the racing bashers who refuse to see that pretty much all sports have unpleasant as well as positive aspects to them, they just differ.
		
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And I'm sick of racing people who cannot just accept that the death rate in National Hunt racing in deaths per 1000 horses competing is far higher than in any other equestrian activity.

The NH Racing argument is not a simple one when you take into consideration revenues, taxes, employment, horse welfare, horses' will to be alive etc etc etc.

I don't understand why you cannot accept that it is not a case of NH racing "just differing" a bit from other sports; and accept that the high death rates are a concern to many people, horse people and not. My OH has been to two meets. A horse died at each and he is now bitterly opposed to NH racing in a way that I certainly am not. He is not a horseman, just a businessman.

I will listen with respect to any opinion as to why the higher death rate is acceptable. I find the one that the horses would prefer to be alive for a while and die quickly from a race injury than never to have lived at all - the alternative - particularly convincing.   I use it myself to justify being a meat-eater.

But I will not listen with the same respect to repeated denial that it is any different from any other horse sport, when it so clearly is.


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## Caledonia (8 May 2012)

*sighs* 

You'll find the answer to your last post on the previous thread. 

I think as you are now resorting to insults, the time to put you on UI has arrived. But before I do that, perhaps your horses that do dressage all by themselves in the field might like to meet the ones in my fields that have wings, blue eyes, golden hooves and can tell someone with an honours degree in bull**** a mile off??


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