# Wintec CAIR system I am SHOCKED !



## horse.love92 (11 August 2013)

So basically my irish cob has been having trouble with saddle sores for quite a while , a few saddlers later and we find a good one ...

As soon as she turned up she said , I know what the problem is , it's the CAIR panels . 
So anyway she took them out and oh my god they are literally cheap plastic wrapped pieces of foam that over lap each other in the middle of the saddle followed by 2 roughly cut pieces of foamy thin material . I was absolutely shocked . The CAIR was pretty hard considering it was meant to be foam , no wonder my poor horse had been suffering !! 

Anyway she reflocked the saddle , also is coming back next week to fit new girth straps as of the dreadful breaking Wintec ones !!


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## lucemoose (11 August 2013)

Doesn't sound like a cair pocket?


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## Coblover63 (11 August 2013)

Yup, they're hideous aren't they?  I've seen examples where they overlap which would cause awful pressure points and even where one side's panels were both smaller than the other!!


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## horse.love92 (11 August 2013)

Coblover63 said:



			Yup, they're hideous aren't they?  I've seen examples where they overlap which would cause awful pressure points and even where one side's panels were both smaller than the other!!
		
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Yes that's the same as the one we had , it over lapped and caused him to get some nasty sores !


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (11 August 2013)

Yep, I know what the CAIR panels are like, which is why I would avoid like the plague any saddle with them in.


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## ecrozier (11 August 2013)

Interesting. Does the same apply to flair?


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## Pearlsasinger (11 August 2013)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			Yep, I know what the CAIR panels are like, which is why I would avoid like the plague any saddle with them in.
		
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This.  They are far too hard to even have a possibility of feeling comfortable for any horse.


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## Capriole (11 August 2013)

Yes, I've seen inside one too, I wouldn't choose to buy one.


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## Meowy Catkin (11 August 2013)

ecrozier said:



			Interesting. Does the same apply to flair?
		
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Flair is a much better air flocking system - you can adjust it for a start (unlike Cair). Some horses don't like it, others do.


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## RubysGold (11 August 2013)

I have a wintec Cair saddle! :O 
doesn't sound good!!!


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## Meowy Catkin (11 August 2013)

http://www.trotonline.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?43149-Inside-a-Wintec-Cair-saddle&

^ There are photos on this link.


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## NaeNae87 (12 August 2013)

As with everything, it depends on your horse as to what suits them best. 

It also depends on your saddle fitter. If they are not skilled enough to correctly fit your equipment then you will end up with sore horses and saddle problems. 

I have flocked saddles and CAIR saddles. I have never had any problems with fit or sore horses. My saddle fitter is highly acredited and also comes from a massage/soft tissue work back ground. She has extensivley studied bio-mechanics, movement and saddle manufacturing and does not work for a manufacturer or store... she is not interested in making sales, she just wants the best fit for rider and horse. 

I would not hesitate to buy another CAIR saddle, and yes I am fully aware of what the CAIR & FLAIR systems look like as well as flocked saddles. If not properly packed, flocking can do just as much damage and a CAIR pannel.


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## EstherYoung (12 August 2013)

Faracat said:



			Flair is a much better air flocking system - you can adjust it for a start (unlike Cair). Some horses don't like it, others do.
		
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Yup, Flair is completely different and much superior.


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## horse.love92 (12 August 2013)

Faracat said:



http://www.trotonline.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?43149-Inside-a-Wintec-Cair-saddle&

^ There are photos on this link.
		
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Mine was worse than this it didn't have any flocking and the pads were not taped together .


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## ester (12 August 2013)

The trouble is however good your saddler us they can't really adjust a cair saddle.


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## ecrozier (12 August 2013)

Is that not true of many of the modern latex panelled saddles though too Ester? Re non adjustability I mean? 
I've never had either - always stuck with traditional wool flocked and whilst have had my fair share of saddles sagas have always been fit related rather than related to paneling problems - but it does interest me as I'm looking into all options ATM and one saddle I found was flair panelled.


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## DabDab (12 August 2013)

NaeNae87 said:



			As with everything, it depends on your horse as to what suits them best. 

It also depends on your saddle fitter. If they are not skilled enough to correctly fit your equipment then you will end up with sore horses and saddle problems. 

I have flocked saddles and CAIR saddles. I have never had any problems with fit or sore horses. My saddle fitter is highly acredited and also comes from a massage/soft tissue work back ground. She has extensivley studied bio-mechanics, movement and saddle manufacturing and does not work for a manufacturer or store... she is not interested in making sales, she just wants the best fit for rider and horse. 

I would not hesitate to buy another CAIR saddle, and yes I am fully aware of what the CAIR & FLAIR systems look like as well as flocked saddles. If not properly packed, flocking can do just as much damage and a CAIR pannel.
		
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This. Although cair can't really be adjusted it is pretty easy to feel when it starts to go off and develop hard spots, in the same way as it is quite easy to feel when flocking goes lumpy or rock hard - you don't need to be a qualified saddler to realise that it's going to cause your horse sore spots.


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## Clava (12 August 2013)

This is what is inside a cair saddle http://www.trotonline.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?43149-Inside-a-Wintec-Cair-saddle

I wouldn't ever put a cair saddle on my horse!


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## mushroom (12 August 2013)

I have a Wintec 2000 with cair and have had no issues with it at all.  Comfortable saddle for both horse and rider.


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## BeckyD (12 August 2013)

I also had no problems with my CAIR saddle. Couldn't feel any joins or lumpy bits and horse was happy.


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## ester (12 August 2013)

ecrozier said:



			Is that not true of many of the modern latex panelled saddles though too Ester? Re non adjustability I mean? 
I've never had either - always stuck with traditional wool flocked and whilst have had my fair share of saddles sagas have always been fit related rather than related to paneling problems - but it does interest me as I'm looking into all options ATM and one saddle I found was flair panelled.
		
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Oh yes def, it was just that someone had said they are fine, it depends on the quality of your saddler - but there isn't much a saddler can do with the cair apart from take it out (obv the same with latex but at least smooth foam to start with). I have had a flair saddle and we got on with that really well - although I think some have commented about a possible crease occurring with the bags on those too.


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## LiffWee93 (12 August 2013)

i use cair saddles on all of my ponies with great benefit, they all go absolutely beautifully in them. i am fully aware of the cair system and read into it all before buying  i have never once had a problem with any of the cair bags, they overlap yes, but are tapered to fit neatly and are completely flat along the panel (in my saddles), whereas a lot of  the flocked saddles i have seen are not! (probably just been badly done though!) and also, the panels are now adjustable in the cair saddles using their new riser system, that gives you as much adjustability as is possible, very easily  but every horse  and rider is different i guess


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (12 August 2013)

NaeNae87 said:



			My saddle fitter is highly acredited and also comes from a massage/soft tissue work back ground. She has extensivley studied bio-mechanics, movement and saddle manufacturing and does not work for a manufacturer or store... she is not interested in making sales, she just wants the best fit for rider and horse.
		
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OK so that's it.......... I'm emigrating. Perhaps the only place to find any decent saddle fitters is Down Under???


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## Clava (12 August 2013)

LiffWee93 said:



			i use cair saddles on all of my ponies with great benefit, they all go absolutely beautifully in them. i am fully aware of the cair system and read into it all before buying  i have never once had a problem with any of the cair bags, they overlap yes, but are tapered to fit neatly and are completely flat along the panel (in my saddles), whereas a lot of  the flocked saddles i have seen are not! (probably just been badly done though!) and also, the panels are now adjustable in the cair saddles using their new riser system, that gives you as much adjustability as is possible, very easily  but every horse  and rider is different i guess 

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Only the foam is shaped so they are hardly tapered to fit! 4 layers of plastic at one point, they are just taped together and so cause a section to be of a different composition to the rest which is  fundamental flare.






and just a bit of foam inside the plastic bags


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## horse.love92 (12 August 2013)

Clava said:



			Only the foam is shaped so they are hardly tapered to fit! 4 layers of plastic at one point, they are just taped together and so cause a section to be of a different composition to the rest which is  fundamental flare.






and just a bit of foam inside the plastic bags





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Mine did not look like this it had black plastic wrapped foam pieces roughly joined together . No tape and no foam inside just thin bits of card board/foam type things .


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## Clava (12 August 2013)

horse.love92 said:



			Mine did not look like this it had black plastic wrapped foam pieces roughly joined together . No tape and no foam inside just thin bits of card board/foam type things .
		
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Eeek that sounds awful as I think even they type I posted are not something I would put on any horse's back.


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## LiffWee93 (12 August 2013)

my cair panels look nothing like this :O mine (and every other cair saddle ive seen) are all black pockets, very soft filled with air... and are all of the demo models of the cair system i have seen? hmm.. have you emailed wintec with that picture, just because i would is all, i am shocked at the above! :O xxx


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## Clava (12 August 2013)

LiffWee93 said:



			my cair panels look nothing like this :O mine (and every other cair saddle ive seen) are all black pockets, very soft filled with air... and are all of the demo models of the cair system i have seen? hmm.. have you emailed wintec with that picture, just because i would is all, i am shocked at the above! :O xxx
		
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The saddler who took the Cair panels out said they all look similar to this.


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## Capriole (12 August 2013)

It just looks the same as the ones I've seen.


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## Cortez (12 August 2013)

As with anything made by hand, it is only as good as the hand that made it. It would be nice to think that there was some quality control assessment, 'tho.....


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## Hoof_Prints (12 August 2013)

Bit unnerving seeing that! They look horrible :/ . However I recently bought my horse the Wintec 2000 with CAIR and its the only saddle he hasn't put his ears back at. He was fitted in an expensive flocked saddle (Crosby softride I think its called) and hated it, gets on very well with CAIR and has muscled up a lot over his topline since wearing it! Don't like the concept of it at all though , 'the CAIR panels can only be fitted with the riders weight on them' and following that statement is a picture of the panels hovering over the back; IMO that's another way of say 'the panels will bounce around in rising trot or in a two point seat and that surely means the weight is being concentrated over the area where the stirrups are ! Maybe i'm wrong but I can't argue with my horse, he moves great in it and finds it comfortable...


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## Ridingondreams (12 August 2013)

Oh dear, I'm cringing a little bit at those pictures :/ 

My loan horse has a Wintec CAIR saddle. She came with it when she joined our stables, and I'd never really investigated what a CAIR saddle was until just now. She doesn't show any signs of discomfort or have any saddle sores at all, but those plasticky things look horrid.  I just hope that she's not uncomfortable, because I really, really don't have the money to buy her a new saddle. I've seen so much stuff about dodgy saddle recently, and it really scares me!


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## NaeNae87 (13 August 2013)

MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:



			OK so that's it.......... I'm emigrating. Perhaps the only place to find any decent saddle fitters is Down Under???

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Haha, Bates flew Lou (my saddle fitter) over to Europe at the start of the year. She was fitting Isabell Werth's personal saddles as well as a few other well known riders. She did some Saddle Fit Lecturing over in Brussels while she was there, she also attended a master fitters work shop in the UK and has been over to South Africa to fit saddles in the last 12 months too. Woman gets around hey?  

She's hard to get a hold of, but man is she worth it.... I can give you a heads up if I hear she is off gallivanting around the world again if you like?  lol


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## FabioandFreddy (13 August 2013)

Fabio's got one of the Bates saddles and goes really well in it. Never had any issues with his back. Know some horses don't get on with the CAIR though. I guess it must be a bit like us with mattresses - some like them softer/harder/memory foam - so horsey equivalent of what they find comfy on their back!


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## flyingfeet (13 August 2013)

Not sure why this is shocking or looks terrible - most of the bearing area is a nice flat panel. Traditional flocked saddles do not offer this uniformity or have the ability to move like air to adapt to the horses shape. In fact I've seem some pretty awful flocked saddles which are not symmetrical and have all sorts of lumps developing. 

I use flair and cair on my horses and don't have any problems. However under all my saddles I generally use a quality saddle cloth or pad.

I'm not shocked to see these pictures, but your saddler obviously got good money to reflock the saddle, so I guess everyone is happy!

Also worth bearing in mind that Wintec/Bates are the most successful saddle company in the world and have overtaken every other manufacturer. They must be doing something right!


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## kerilli (13 August 2013)

the overlapping panels are a known problem. afaik some manufacturers are now using airpockets in the front only (the part where the musculature changes the most) to avoid this. 
all the people who believe that air is soft make me laugh... air under pressure is rock hard!
latex is shock absorbing. i chose latex panels for almost all of my saddles.


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## flyingfeet (13 August 2013)

If you think air is hard try this - get a wool stuff bag put it on your back and ask a child (small adult) to sit on it and bounce

Now get a wobble cushion and try the same (not with the spikey side!!) 

You'll find the air offers more relief to specific pressure points, but moves more. Now some horses are going to prefer the wool and others the air. 

I think comments like air is "rock hard" are a wee bit unhelpful as not actually true, unless some maniac has pumped up your flair to the point it bounces......


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## Clava (13 August 2013)

flyingfeet said:



			If you think air is hard try this - get a wool stuff bag put it on your back and ask a child (small adult) to sit on it and bounce

Now get a wobble cushion and try the same (not with the spikey side!!) 

You'll find the air offers more relief to specific pressure points, but moves more. Now some horses are going to prefer the wool and others the air. 

I think comments like air is "rock hard" are a wee bit unhelpful as not actually true, unless some maniac has pumped up your flair to the point it bounces......
		
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Air in a sealed bag under pressure (ie a humans weight on it) is hard -  Air in a fabric cushion which allows the air to move out , now that is giving and soft.


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## flyingfeet (13 August 2013)

Honestly just try this - a wobble cushion is a sealed bag just like inside a saddle


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## Clava (13 August 2013)

flyingfeet said:



			Honestly just try this - a wobble cushion is a sealed bag just like inside a saddle
		
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When the sealed bags were removed from the saddle and squeezed, there was nothing giving about them - they are just horrible. I certainly wouldn't want my child using them as a saddle on me.


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## flyingfeet (13 August 2013)

Clava said:



			When the sealed bags were removed from the saddle and squeezed, there was nothing giving about them - they are just horrible. I certainly wouldn't want my child using them as a saddle on me.
		
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Did you actually sit or stand on them? (Using most of their bearing area?)


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## Clava (13 August 2013)

flyingfeet said:



			Did you actually sit or stand on them? (Using most of their bearing area?)
		
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Actually we did, one under each foot, then pressed with a finger into them and I'm sorry but to me they felt hard. I wish I had taken photos.


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## applecart14 (13 August 2013)

Yeah and it costs £90 per panel to have each CAIR replaced, did you know that!! I asked the local saddlery shop who got a quote for me. But luckily through talking to them I realised I was within warranty - only just 4 months inside a three year warranty from new, and had both panels replaced and they paid up the £180 quid it cost me!!  Happy days.


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## flyingfeet (13 August 2013)

Shame you didn't send them back to Weatherbeeta for conformity tests before you punctured them


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## Jesstickle (13 August 2013)

I guess this is why my fitter sells Wintecs with flock rather than with CAIR then


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## HaffiesRock (13 August 2013)

My pony didn't like his Cair saddle at all. It did feel very hard if you poked at the panel while mounted. It also bounced a lot on the lunge and squeeked! Swapped for a regular flocked saddle now and he is much happier in it.


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