# Could my horse be a small hunter? Help please!



## babyd (8 March 2017)

Hi there!

I'm just after a bit of advice please - showing has never really been an area that I have focused on, however it is something that I have considered for this season and i'm really unsure what classes to aim my horse at. 

I have a (nearly) 6 year old, 15.2 horse. We have been competing in SJ and eventing and have completed a BE80. I originally planned on doing the Working Hunter at the Great Yorkshire Show this year but hadn't realised it was so big and don't want to overphase him. I still fancy doing something at GYS and saw a Small Hunter class. My question is, would we stand any chance? He is bay roan and only has a reasonable amount of bone - are these things that will go against him? I understand that he probably wouldn't be right for the weight classes but could I get away with the small class?

I've included a couple of pics of said horse and welcome any feedback! I don't want to go to be laughed out of the ring haha but I think it could be good experience for him. Also if anyone has any tips, they would be greatly appreciated!



























Thank you!


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## Shay (8 March 2017)

He is certainly a hunter type - but he might come up too tall?  Small hunter as defined by the show rules is 148cm - 158cm.     You have to register both horse and rider with the BSHA - and include a JMB height certificate.


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## silv (8 March 2017)

You really need to post proper side on conformation photos. Please don't be offended but the best in the country will be competing so not to look out of place you need to be top quality.


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## rara007 (8 March 2017)

How old are you? Could you do intermediate workers? This is also up to 15.2 and 'only' about 1.05ish? (Too big for me too if that's still too big!)


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## Orangehorse (8 March 2017)

There are plenty of local shows like Riding Club and one day shows that have small hunter classes, so the thing to do is to take part in them and see how you get on.  After the class you can ask the judge.  Contrary to some stories, I have always found the judges knowledgeable and I generally agree with them even if I don't win!  Judges have been MFH, BHSI and other local show producers.


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## babyd (8 March 2017)

Shay said:



			He is certainly a hunter type - but he might come up too tall?  Small hunter as defined by the show rules is 148cm - 158cm.     You have to register both horse and rider with the BSHA - and include a JMB height certificate.
		
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Thank you! So to enter GYS he would need have a height certificate? He is juuuust 15.2 and to be honest, everyone thinks he's a pony!!really pleased that you asked if he was too big as I'm always willing him to grow &#128514;&#128514;.


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## babyd (8 March 2017)

I only have this one at home - I know it's not a proper conformation shot but at local shows he has always had good comments about his conformation. I can get a prope pic tomorrow. Thank you for your help!


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## babyd (8 March 2017)

rara007 said:



			How old are you? Could you do intermediate workers? This is also up to 15.2 and 'only' about 1.05ish? (Too big for me too if that's still too big!)
		
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I'm 28 but I think that would be pushing it a bit in that atmosphere for him. He's jumped  1mathome but never away from home... yet! That's the aim for next year! Thanks


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## AdorableAlice (8 March 2017)

Here are examples of small show hunters.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=s...=tGXAWKbyPOmZgAbU8Y_IDQ#imgrc=25pCtWALU5-ruM:


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## minesadouble (8 March 2017)

rara007 said:



			How old are you? Could you do intermediate workers? This is also up to 15.2 and 'only' about 1.05ish? (Too big for me too if that's still too big!)
		
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No Intermediates at GYS I'm afraid.


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## IdoShowing (8 March 2017)

rara007 said:



			How old are you? Could you do intermediate workers? This is also up to 15.2 and 'only' about 1.05ish? (Too big for me too if that's still too big!)
		
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Intermediates are 1.15, 15hh whp is 1.05


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## conniegirl (8 March 2017)

Unfortunately I don't think he would stand up in the company at great Yorkshire. 
You will find there it is the absolute best of the best simply because it is the great yorkshire


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## KautoStar1 (8 March 2017)

No. Sorry.


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## KautoStar1 (8 March 2017)

Also should add, if you are showing for the first time GYS is not the place to cut your teeth at.   It's of the very highest standard. No place for a novice.   Sorry. Again.


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## babyd (8 March 2017)

KautoStar1 said:



			Also should add, if you are showing for the first time GYS is not the place to cut your teeth at.   It's of the very highest standard. No place for a novice.   Sorry. Again.
		
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We've been local and ridden in hunter classes, he usually gets placed 3rd/4th in big classes and the feedback is always that he's beautifully put together but too small vs all the heavyweights. I thought maybe the small class would suit him. I appreciate your feedback but can you please elaborate on why you think he wouldn't do well? Thanks


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## babyd (8 March 2017)

conniegirl said:



			Unfortunately I don't think he would stand up in the company at great Yorkshire. 
You will find there it is the absolute best of the best simply because it is the great yorkshire
		
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I'll be honest, I've been to GYS and also looked at the pictures of this class throughout the years and have to disagree on it being the best of the best. Can you please elaborate on why? You're probably right but it would be great to know why you think he wouldn't do well? Thanks again for the feedback.


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## rara007 (8 March 2017)

If you want to ride a GYS just go for it  I'm not a hunter person hence not commenting on the horse but life is for living! There is only 1 winner in each class anyway so stats are against you even if your horse is a supermodel


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## Pearlsasinger (9 March 2017)

babyd said:



			We've been local and ridden in hunter classes, he usually gets placed 3rd/4th in big classes and the feedback is always that he's beautifully put together but too small vs all the heavyweights. I thought maybe the small class would suit him. I appreciate your feedback but can you please elaborate on why you think he wouldn't do well? Thanks
		
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Tbh if he's only being placed 3rd and 4th at local shows, he will be totally outclassed at GYS.


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 March 2017)

Is Yorkshire not a HOYS qualifier? In which case you would need nearly £200 worth of membership, a height cert and then the extortionate entry fees on top. You'd be looking at nearly £400 just for one class


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## twiggy2 (9 March 2017)

rara007 said:



			If you want to ride a GYS just go for it  I'm not a hunter person hence not commenting on the horse but life is for living! There is only 1 winner in each class anyway so stats are against you even if your horse is a supermodel 

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This


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## AdorableAlice (9 March 2017)

EKW said:



			Is Yorkshire not a HOYS qualifier? In which case you would need nearly £200 worth of membership, a height cert and then the extortionate entry fees on top. You'd be looking at nearly £400 just for one class
		
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Yes. A lovely show though and well worth a day out watching the hunters.

Op, The level of judging at local level is very different to that at national level, as is the type of horse in the classes.  Your lovely horse is a workmanlike type and a very useful and much loved all round horse.  Judging from the pictures he is a little short in the neck, a little long behind the saddle, his head is a little plain and his limb a little coarse.

To show at National level the horse, no matter what type, has to be top class in every department, from type to ride and manners.

A top small hunter is a rare beast.  A top small hunter is based on the requirements for a top middle weight hunter but scaled down to 15.2.  The picture below is a middle weight, so imagine what you are seeing in the picture scaled down to 15.2 but not scaled down in bone or quality and then compare the shape and quality of this horse to your lovely horse.  That should give you a good example of the differences.  The horse in the picture, despite being top class and prolifically successful was never taken to GYS as I knew he would not have been in the top 3.

Hope that helps you.


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## AdorableAlice (9 March 2017)

rara007 said:



			If you want to ride a GYS just go for it  I'm not a hunter person hence not commenting on the horse but life is for living! There is only 1 winner in each class anyway so stats are against you even if your horse is a supermodel 

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Not quite as simple as that !  sourcing, producing and funding the horse is key and showing at top level is not a case of rocking up, running to the secretaries tent to lodge an entry.


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## rara007 (9 March 2017)

Dunno, we did a fair chunk of the South east county shows last year including Royal Windsor. My dad has got to the time in his life he just wants to enjoy it- and he did! He was placed at a few but never in a RI class but still had a thoroughly nice day out at each! Coloured not hunters but still large enough classes these days. Yes it involved (for pony class) LHCs and various memberships but coming from FEI was a step down in 'paperwork'.


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 March 2017)

Though they do say the hunter gallop at GYS is the best in the country which would tempt me but not enough if I didn't have the right horse for the job.


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## ester (9 March 2017)

I guess it depends whether you are bothered about placing, not everyone is


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## conniegirl (9 March 2017)

babyd said:



			I'll be honest, I've been to GYS and also looked at the pictures of this class throughout the years and have to disagree on it being the best of the best. Can you please elaborate on why? You're probably right but it would be great to know why you think he wouldn't do well? Thanks again for the feedback.
		
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Great yorkshire show is a HOYS qualifier for the small hunters, ALL the producers will be there with their best, it is also the biggest and best county show in the north of England so every serious showing bod from the local area (i.e anyone north of birmingham) will be there if they can.

My lad is a lovely full up (158cm) coloured small hunter, he is ALWAYS top of the line at local shows and small qualifiers and in CHAPS classes. 

















But if I ever took him to great yorkshire he would be mid line up at absolute best.

You cannot enter HOYS qualifiers for small hunter without BSHA membership (not even on a day ticket) so in order to do the class you will need:
BSHA hunter associate membership (your membership) - £30
BSHA hunter registration (horse registration) - £30
JMB height certificate - £90 (plus a day off work, fuel to get him to the nearest measuring pad and farrier fees for taking shoes off before/putting them back on after).
Entry fee & HOYS levy - £70.

so total you are looking at minimum £250 for one class.

Added to that, entrys close on the 2nd of may so you would have to get everything in place by mid april, which is unlikely since JMB certificates can take up to 6 weeks to come through and you cant start BSHA hunter registration untill you have that certificate. So you would likely have to pay rush fees for membership. So probably looking at close on £400 for the one class.

Also the judge will ride your horse at great yorkshire show (in any HOYS or BSHA qualifier) which means you will have to get your horse used to everyone and sundry getting on him, potentialy socking him in the mouth or booting him in the ribs (most ride judges are excellent riders but some are shocking) the judge will expect a lovely effortless educated ride

Here is a link to the photos of the small hunter class last year at great yorkshire.
http://www.esphotography.co.uk/even...ar/2016/day/28/category/TUESWhiteSmallHunter/

There is 2 HOYS winners in that lot that I immediately recognize but AA may be able to pick out more, and all but 1 of the rest have qualified HOYS i think (I have only been doing Hunters the last 4 years so stand to be corrected on that one, much better identifying M&M's and coloureds)


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## ester (9 March 2017)

Plenty of people will pay that for a day out? And if you are doing it for that it doesn't matter who else is there with what? If you have no expectations beyond a nice day out you aren't going to be disappointed


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## conniegirl (9 March 2017)

ester said:



			Plenty of people will pay that for a day out? And if you are doing it for that it doesn't matter who else is there with what? If you have no expectations beyond a nice day out you aren't going to be disappointed
		
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Well I wont! but if she wants to then good luck to her in getting all the paperwork through in time. She would need to start JMB process today or tommorow and potentialy pay rush feed at BSHA in order to get everything in place and entries sent off before close of entries.

I personaly would rather just go and watch, you still get the day out and it costs 1/10th of the price. I would rather not pay minimum £250 and not be placed. Thats the equivalent of 10 classes at Nat Champs or more that 25+ classes at local/small qualifier level.


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## ester (9 March 2017)

It's nice to have a day out with your horse , and ride in a special ring, wouldn't be for me as I have to count the pennies but not everyone does so just because it might be an expensive day doesn't mean it isn't doable. Granted the OP did ask if they stood any chance though


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## babyd (9 March 2017)

conniegirl said:



			Great yorkshire show is a HOYS qualifier for the small hunters, ALL the producers will be there with their best, it is also the biggest and best county show in the north of England so every serious showing bod from the local area (i.e anyone north of birmingham) will be there if they can.

My lad is a lovely full up (158cm) coloured small hunter, he is ALWAYS top of the line at local shows and small qualifiers and in CHAPS classes. 

















But if I ever took him to great yorkshire he would be mid line up at absolute best.

You cannot enter HOYS qualifiers for small hunter without BSHA membership (not even on a day ticket) so in order to do the class you will need:
BSHA hunter associate membership (your membership) - £30
BSHA hunter registration (horse registration) - £30
JMB height certificate - £90 (plus a day off work, fuel to get him to the nearest measuring pad and farrier fees for taking shoes off before/putting them back on after).
Entry fee & HOYS levy - £70.

so total you are looking at minimum £250 for one class.

Added to that, entrys close on the 2nd of may so you would have to get everything in place by mid april, which is unlikely since JMB certificates can take up to 6 weeks to come through and you cant start BSHA hunter registration untill you have that certificate. So you would likely have to pay rush fees for membership. So probably looking at close on £400 for the one class.

Also the judge will ride your horse at great yorkshire show (in any HOYS or BSHA qualifier) which means you will have to get your horse used to everyone and sundry getting on him, potentialy socking him in the mouth or booting him in the ribs (most ride judges are excellent riders but some are shocking) the judge will expect a lovely effortless educated ride

Here is a link to the photos of the small hunter class last year at great yorkshire.
http://www.esphotography.co.uk/even...ar/2016/day/28/category/TUESWhiteSmallHunter/

There is 2 HOYS winners in that lot that I immediately recognize but AA may be able to pick out more, and all but 1 of the rest have qualified HOYS i think (Only been doing Hunters the last 4 years)
		
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Wow, thank you. A couple of really solid answers there and i really appreciate it! The break down of the money is very useful - i honestly (and naively) thought that it would just be the cost of the entry and levy, i didn't think you needed to register to compete at GYS. I was also unaware that the horses need to be unshod - that would be a bit of an annoyance!! *edit - i have just looked at the link to last years and they seem to be wearing shoes? Have i missed something here?*

I did read up though and thought this class only consisted of a show, gallop and then a trot up? Not ridden by the judge?

The height certificate is another stickler as in most of the things we do i'm wishing for extra height!! This would be the first time i'd ever want him to be small and i wouldn't want to jinx his growth haha! Still wishing for another inch... 

I feel confident that he is schooled well enough to do a good show and gallop. He has lovely conformation but I wasn't sure if it was right for hunters. I thought it would be good experience for him and at £70-£100 i would have been willing to give it a go but i think you may have managed to put me off!! Slightly disappointed but better to know now rather than waste £400 and get nowhere near the placings! 

Thanks again.


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## babyd (9 March 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			Yes. A lovely show though and well worth a day out watching the hunters.

Op, The level of judging at local level is very different to that at national level, as is the type of horse in the classes.  Your lovely horse is a workmanlike type and a very useful and much loved all round horse.  Judging from the pictures he is a little short in the neck, a little long behind the saddle, his head is a little plain and his limb a little coarse.

To show at National level the horse, no matter what type, has to be top class in every department, from type to ride and manners.

A top small hunter is a rare beast.  A top small hunter is based on the requirements for a top middle weight hunter but scaled down to 15.2.  The picture below is a middle weight, so imagine what you are seeing in the picture scaled down to 15.2 but not scaled down in bone or quality and then compare the shape and quality of this horse to your lovely horse.  That should give you a good example of the differences.  The horse in the picture, despite being top class and prolifically successful was never taken to GYS as I knew he would not have been in the top 3.

Hope that helps you.






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This is excellent and exactly the answer I was looking for - thank you! 

Please can you explain what you mean by coarse limbs? And is colour brought into the equation when judging in the hunters?

It's looking like I will probably give it a miss - i hadn't realised that there was so much paperwork to do and i'd rather spend the money on something that i am confident he will place in (BE registration etc). Thank you for all of the information, definitely worth asking before just entering! You fully understood my question and gave a really detailed answer - it's massively appreciated!


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## conniegirl (9 March 2017)

babyd said:



			Wow, thank you. A couple of really solid answers there and i really appreciate it! The break down of the money is very useful - i honestly (and naively) thought that it would just be the cost of the entry and levy, i didn't think you needed to register to compete at GYS. I was also unaware that the horses need to be unshod - that would be a bit of an annoyance!! 

I did read up though and thought this class only consisted of a show, gallop and then a trot up? Not ridden by the judge?

The height certificate is another stickler as in most of the things we do i'm wishing for extra height!! This would be the first time i'd ever want him to be small and i wouldn't want to jinx his growth haha! Still wishing for another inch... 

I feel confident that he is schooled well enough to do a good show and gallop. He has lovely conformation but I wasn't sure if it was right for hunters. I thought it would be good experience for him and at £70-£100 i would have been willing to give it a go but i think you may have managed to put me off!! Slightly disappointed but better to know now rather than waste £400 and get nowhere near the placings! 

Thanks again.
		
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In any HOYS horse class you do not do a show, you will do the go round (including a gallop), the judge will ride and then you will do the inhand part.
Horses need to be shod for the actual classes but for a JMB certificate they need to be unshod.
Without the correct memberships and height certificated your entry would be returned.

A horse schooled well enough to do a show and a horse schooled well enough for a judge ride are 2 totaly different beasts! the judge will not school the horse, they will not get after it, they will ask lightly once and expect for the horse to do everything in a mannerly, educated, and controlled outline. There is no hideing anything with a judge ride and if the judge feels at all unsafe they will get off and hand the horse back to you (and that is humiliating). The horse essentialy has to be schooled well enough that it could have a totaly unknown rider on it and still go out and win (70% +) an Elementary level dressage test.

Even if you did chose to have a go I realy dont think you would be in the rosettes. They place to 6th normaly and you average around 12 to 15 in the class (13 last year). 
My lad is a show horse, he was bought for showing, but mainly coloured classes, he has the condition, conformation and schooling to not look out of place a small hunter class but I would say he would at most scrape a 6th (if he gave the best ride of his life) as he is a bit long in the back, a bit upright in his pasterns and a coloured who's front leg markings can make him look a bit back at the knee depending on how he is stood! I'm sure AdorableAlice could probably pick a 100 more holes in his conformation.


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## babyd (9 March 2017)

conniegirl said:



			In any HOYS horse class you do not do a show, you will do the go round (including a gallop), the judge will ride and then you will do the inhand part.
Horses need to be shod for the actual classes but for a JMB certificate they need to be unshod.
Without the correct memberships and height certificated your entry would be returned.

A horse schooled well enough to do a show and a horse schooled well enough for a judge ride are 2 totaly different beasts! the judge will not school the horse, they will not get after it, they will ask lightly once and expect for the horse to do everything in a mannerly, educated, and controlled outline. There is no hideing anything with a judge ride and if the judge feels at all unsafe they will get off and hand the horse back to you (and that is humiliating).

Even if you did chose to have a go I realy dont think you would be in the rosettes. They place to 6th normaly and you average around 12 to 15 in the class (13 last year). 
My lad is a show horse, he was bought for showing, but mainly coloured classes, he has the condition, conformation and schooling to not look out of place a small hunter class but I would say he would at most scrape a 6th (if he gave the best ride of his life).
		
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Great, thank you. I understand it fully now and appreciate the heads up.

That said, i believe he would give the judge a good ride - i have no worries about that whatsoever. In fact, i think it would boost his placings and he is so well behaved and well schooled. My concern is more over whether he would be discounted before he is even ridden because of his type/colour etc. I now also have a concern over cost and the height certificate... all things I hadn't factored in!


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## SmallHunter (9 March 2017)

If he has never had a ride judge on before then I really wouldn't choose GYS as his first time with one no matter how well trained/behaved they are normally the atmosphere at big shows like GYS isn't ideal for introducing a horse to a ride judge.


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## cundlegreen (9 March 2017)

Another who agrees with those who say he's not of sufficient quality, I'm afraid. He is much more of a WH type, where the jumping hopefully has more influence on the results (but not always!) The other thing to bear in mind, is that most of the "smalls" would measure in considerably more than your horse. Mostly by the way they carry themselves, and that elusive quality of "presence" which is so hard to find.
i have a full up 15.2hh mare, who looked very much the pony when put in an Intermediate worker class. I am also debating spending a lot of money to register her as a Working Hunter because although she doesn't fit the type (very pony), she WILL jump the courses and should she get to Hickstead, would have no problem with the course there, as her mother came 4th there in her heyday, and this family all jump. It's still a lot of money to fork out, and I wouldn't even consider it unless I could do at least 4 shows to make it worth while. Do go along to the show and watch the class, you will soon realise what a gulf there is between local, and county show standards.


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## Tiddlypom (9 March 2017)

Don't any of the big shows still have local classes restricted to those who live within a certain distance, (say 15 miles), from the show ground any more? I'm sure that Devon County Show used to have these back in the day. Was a great day out for the locals, and they were always well supported.


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## babyd (9 March 2017)

cundlegreen said:



			Another who agrees with those who say he's not of sufficient quality, I'm afraid. He is much more of a WH type, where the jumping hopefully has more influence on the results (but not always!) The other thing to bear in mind, is that most of the "smalls" would measure in considerably more than your horse. Mostly by the way they carry themselves, and that elusive quality of "presence" which is so hard to find.
i have a full up 15.2hh mare, who looked very much the pony when put in an Intermediate worker class. I am also debating spending a lot of money to register her as a Working Hunter because although she doesn't fit the type (very pony), she WILL jump the courses and should she get to Hickstead, would have no problem with the course there, as her mother came 4th there in her heyday, and this family all jump. It's still a lot of money to fork out, and I wouldn't even consider it unless I could do at least 4 shows to make it worth while. Do go along to the show and watch the class, you will soon realise what a gulf there is between local, and county show standards.
		
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Thanks. I have been before and genuinely feel he has the quality and presence to be at the standard to compete there. That said, i have no true idea of what makes a small hunter hence asking the question. Can i ask what makes you think that he wouldn't have the presence based on the pictures that i have posted?


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## Shay (9 March 2017)

If you want to have a go then I really don't see why you shouldn't. The worst that is going to happen would be that you will loose.  But it is going to cost quite a lot to get all the paperwork through and in time for entries.  That might prove too much of a challenge for this year.  But if you want to and are happy to spend that amount of money then why on earth not?!


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## Asha (9 March 2017)

I was at scope last summer and watched the hunter classes. It blew me away, hence my search for my own ID so I could have a go. 
The one thing that struck me about the horses was the presence . How do you describe that ? I don't know but they had it, I went WOW.  I came away buzzing , and knew it was something I wanted to have a go at. Your boy, makes me go ahhhh he's cute, but not Wow. He looks like a fabulous little horse, but from what I saw would be out of his depth, based on your photos. 
Saying that, I may well be out of my depth, but I'm going to have a go one day. I intend to let the judge decide !


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## SmallHunter (9 March 2017)

Shay said:



			If you want to have a go then I really don't see why you shouldn't. The worst that is going to happen would be that you will loose.  But it is going to cost quite a lot to get all the paperwork through and in time for entries.  That might prove too much of a challenge for this year.  But if you want to and are happy to spend that amount of money then why on earth not?!
		
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The lack of ride judge experience is a fairly good reason for not doing it. It is a very bad idea to throw a horse in at the deep end like that when it has never had a judge ride it before and completely unfair on the judge too.


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## cundlegreen (9 March 2017)

babyd said:



			Thanks. I have been before and genuinely feel he has the quality and presence to be at the standard to compete there. That said, i have no true idea of what makes a small hunter hence asking the question. Can i ask what makes you think that he wouldn't have the presence based on the pictures that i have posted?
		
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Not wishing to put your horse down, but based on your photos, he has a short neck, and rather plain/ponyish head, more cob like. Also a thick set gullet. Not a good colour either, as he won't show a shine like the others. I'm NOT being unkind in saying this, just honest. I have shown plenty at county, HOYS and RIHS, always as an amateur, but try to produce as professionally as possible, and that means being really critical of my own horses, knowing they will be up against professional producers. Believe me, the judges will spot the difference straight away just from your turnout. That's the way it is at the top. I've been lucky enough to win against the "big boys", and used to be chuffed when I managed it. One of the reasons why I tended to go the Worker route, the jumping does count. By all means, take him and have some fun, but for me personally, I like to go knowing I have a chance of finishing in the top six.


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## babyd (9 March 2017)

SmallHunter said:



			The lack of ride judge experience is a fairly good reason for not doing it. It is a very bad idea to throw a horse in at the deep end like that when it has never had a judge ride it before and completely unfair on the judge too.
		
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I've decided not to do it because of the cost involved and the likelihood that I won't make best use of the membership as showing isn't my passion.

If i felt my horse wouldn't cope with being put in that situation then i wouldn't have even considered it as an option. I think what you have said is quite rude when you have no knowledge of the horse in question. I have produced him myself and owned him since he was a yearling. He has been in similar environments but never in a showing capacity. He has jumped at Countryside Live and has been ridden by other people. I understand that a judge may ride differently but I have full confidence in my horses ability to cope and his level of education. 

I understand that I asked for critique but some of the responses have been pretty rude. I asked for information on whether my horses type would be considered in a small hunter class, not whether he would be able to cope with it and i certainly didn't expect judgement for asking a pretty simple question. 

Please don't question my knowledge of my horse. I would NEVER knowingly put him in a situation which would upset him or be unfair to others.


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## babyd (9 March 2017)

cundlegreen said:



			Not wishing to put your horse down, but based on your photos, he has a short neck, and rather plain/ponyish head, more cob like. Also a thick set gullet. Not a good colour either, as he won't show a shine like the others. I'm NOT being unkind in saying this, just honest. I have shown plenty at county, HOYS and RIHS, always as an amateur, but try to produce as professionally as possible, and that means being really critical of my own horses, knowing they will be up against professional producers. Believe me, the judges will spot the difference straight away just from your turnout. That's the way it is at the top. I've been lucky enough to win against the "big boys", and used to be chuffed when I managed it. One of the reasons why I tended to go the Worker route, the jumping does count. By all means, take him and have some fun, but for me personally, I like to go knowing I have a chance of finishing in the top six.
		
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Thank you - that's exactly the critique I was looking for. Based on his look, nothing else.

What do you mean by a plain face? Hunters always seen very plain to me and Dexter is a beaut! Don't say cob like... he's a sports horse haha. I do understand what you're saying though!

I asked on here because I would want to go and know if all goes well on the ridden side that he would be in with a chance to get a rosette. I definitely appreciate the feedback because i wouldn't want to go if it was a complete waste of time.

Thanks


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## conniegirl (9 March 2017)

babyd said:



			Thanks. I have been before and genuinely feel he has the quality and presence to be at the standard to compete there. That said, i have no true idea of what makes a small hunter hence asking the question. Can i ask what makes you think that he wouldn't have the presence based on the pictures that i have posted?
		
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I'm sorry but whilst he realy is a nice horse, he realy doesnt have the quality, type or presence to be anywhere near the placings at that level. Yours does not have the correct type of bone, he is very ponyish, his neck is set on quite low, he does not have the condition or topline needed. He would be far better off in the workers class.

The Presence is quite difficult to define, my lad when out at shows draws a lot of attention, he shines like a fresh conker and looks about 17hh (despite being 15.2hh), he draws the eye to him and judges strugle to take thier eyes off him. at very large local shows he is always 1st or second (and if its second it is because he misbehaved), normaly champion, often supreme champion. Its that undefinable quality that made me choose the hairy filthy unhandled yak in a field in Ireland over the gleaming show horses I had been offered the week previously and over all the other (well bred) hairy yaks in the field with him


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## babyd (9 March 2017)

conniegirl said:



			I'm sorry but whilst he realy is a nice horse, he realy doesnt have the quality, type or presence to be anywhere near the placings at that level. Yours does not have the correct type of bone, he is very ponyish, his neck is set on quite low, he does not have the condition or topline needed. He would be far better off in the workers class.

The Presence is quite difficult to define, my lad when out at shows draws a lot of attention, he shines like a fresh conker and looks about 17hh (despite being 15.2hh), he draws the eye to him and judges strugle to take thier eyes off him. Even at very large local shows he is always 1st or second (and if its second it is because he misbehaved), normaly champion, often supreme champion. Its that undefinable quality that made me choose the hairy filthy unhandled yak in a field in Ireland over the gleaming show horses I had been offered the week previously and over all the other (well bred) hairy yaks in the field with him
		
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I'm sorry but i just don't think you can judge that based on a couple of pictures of him jumping. He is also a maturing 5 year old and a few of those pictures were taken at 3/4. You 100% cannot judge presence from a picture especially as you havent seen him turned out/double bridle/being ridden at a show etc. 

I'm pleased to hear that you do so well locally. We have also done well locally and taken a couple of championships and he has won hunter classes at very local (basic) shows. I'm not a showing professional hence asking for opinions and a lot of what you have said I have taken into account.

I am having a lesson with a top working hunter producer and rider next month (understand it is different to hunter classes) so will take his critique as he will see the horse. Obviously it will be too late to enter then but it would be interesting to hear his thoughts.


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 March 2017)

Go to some showing clinics, do some more of the bigger shows that aren't qualifiers for hoys or rihs this year, get as much feed back and advice as you can and then think about GYS next year. That way you will get a proper idea of what is going on, more time to plan, prep yourself and your horse and have more of an idea of exactly what you are  doing when you go out to play with the big boys. 

Life is one big pit of education, you can never stop  learning!


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## Tiddlypom (9 March 2017)

OP, your horse is a nice chap but he is not a county show horse. I do not mean this in any disparaging way, as I would rather pull out my own teeth one by one than get involved with the showing set, but pick your battles.

Enjoy him for what he is.


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## ihatework (9 March 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			OP, your horse is a nice chap but he is not a county show horse. I do not mean this in any disparaging way, as I would rather pull out my own teeth one by one than get involved with the showing set, but pick your battles.

Enjoy him for what he is.
		
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Couldn't have put it better myself!


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## babyd (9 March 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			OP, your horse is a nice chap but he is not a county show horse. I do not mean this in any disparaging way, as I would rather pull out my own teeth one by one than get involved with the showing set, but pick your battles.

Enjoy him for what he is.
		
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Yeahhh I'm seeing that!! Think I'll stick to eventing - at least there's a clear cut winner and it isn't all down to individual preference...

Thanks everyone for the advice and nice comments.


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## Shay (9 March 2017)

I think you have been somewhat chewed on OP.  But in my experience that is fairly typical of the showing set.  You've probably made a sensible suggestion for now.  If you really want  to show then take a year  to figure out (if you can) what the world of an equine beauty contest is all about. Otherwise - enjoy him for what  he is.  I think he looks lovely.


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## Elf On A Shelf (9 March 2017)

The showing fraternity aren't all that bad! Perfection is everything!


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## LPL (9 March 2017)

Tiddlypom said:



			OP, your horse is a nice chap but he is not a county show horse. I do not mean this in any disparaging way, as I would rather pull out my own teeth one by one than get involved with the showing set, but pick your battles.

Enjoy him for what he is.
		
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This is brilliant. 

Op I know you have already made your mind up but I'm another one like you! I've got an average ex racer, he's super handsome but not "show quality". However I'm going to the GYS to do the novice workers and ROR class. I just want a nice picture, I know we aren't going to get placed, certainly not as long as bloody Liverpool is on the circuit haha but I think if you're from Yorkshire, competing at the GYS is one of those bucket list shows. 

The hunter classes really are a different kettle of fish though. Those horses are something else it is literally the best of the best and that ring is intense. I rode at countryside live and it really isn't comparable. I'm all up for having a go though! The novice workers would be your best bet Its only 1m and your horse has to be 6 or younger. You can do this class on a ticket, I've done it at Bramham a few times.


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## KautoStar1 (9 March 2017)

Look, you have to remember not every horse is going to be suitable as a show horse.  It's very much horses for courses isn't it.  I have a beautiful Irish draught who has been shown successfully at county level and has been to RI and the ID championships.  And even he isn't quite top level (maybe he would have been if he'd been with a producer who knows) but my point is he is what he is.  If I wanted to event or show jump to a high standard he wouldn't be the horse I'd do it on.  
In our eyes all our horses are fabulous. But no horse fits every discipline.


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## cundlegreen (9 March 2017)

LPL said:



			This is brilliant. 

Op I know you have already made your mind up but I'm another one like you! I've got an average ex racer, he's super handsome but not "show quality". However I'm going to the GYS to do the novice workers and ROR class. I just want a nice picture, I know we aren't going to get placed, certainly not as long as bloody Liverpool is on the circuit haha but I think if you're from Yorkshire, competing at the GYS is one of those bucket list shows. 

The hunter classes really are a different kettle of fish though. Those horses are something else it is literally the best of the best and that ring is intense. I rode at countryside live and it really isn't comparable. I'm all up for having a go though! The novice workers would be your best bet Its only 1m and your horse has to be 6 or younger. You can do this class on a ticket, I've done it at Bramham a few times.
		
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Now, that's a good suggestion! Op, you are right about eventing to a certain point, this is what I do now, but, it still comes down to a judges preference, and at Grassroots level you can have some awful scoring (mind you, we get that at the higher levels too!). Go for the Novice WH, and have a good time. At least you'll know he can jump the course!


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## AdorableAlice (10 March 2017)

Shay said:



			I think you have been somewhat chewed on OP.  But in my experience that is fairly typical of the showing set.  You've probably made a sensible suggestion for now.  If you really want  to show then take a year  to figure out (if you can) what the world of an equine beauty contest is all about. Otherwise - enjoy him for what  he is.  I think he looks lovely.
		
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The op asked a simple question - is this a small hunter - the question was answered.  It is the 'showing set' that breed, produce, educate, compete and ultimately sell horses that have correct conformation, safe and mannerly rides and the ability to go on into other spheres when they come out of the show ring.  Your comment of equine beauty contest is laughable as far as hunters or performance horses are concerned.  I do however, agree that the manipulation of certain breeds, for instance the arabs and welsh ponies is not acceptable on welfare grounds.

There is no reason at all for the op's horse not to be shown at the appropriate level, just as he is eventing at the appropriate level for his build and scope.  Many County shows do a local hunter class, Monmouth and Moreton in the Marsh do, I think the class is open for horses living within the neighbouring hunt areas.  The horse world is very lucky to have some fabulous riding clubs and many local shows that take a lot of running normally by  volunteers and are often very well supported.  I judged at a popular show held on the edge of Birmingham and had 17 hunters come into the ring followed by a class of 11 cobs, proof that unaff showing is popular.

I also judged ROR and really enjoyed the opportunity, it is wonderful to see these fabulous TB's enjoying second careers.  Showing at unaff level is cheap and fun, good education for the horse and can be a stepping stone to higher level competition.  A good judge will soon tell you to step up a level.

For anyone planning to go as a spectator to GYS, there is little to no accommodation left within an hours drive from the showground, as we found last night when trying to arrange our day out !


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## LPL (10 March 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			Many County shows do a local hunter class, Monmouth and Moreton in the Marsh do, I think the class is open for horses living within the neighbouring hunt areas.

For anyone planning to go as a spectator to GYS, there is little to no accommodation left within an hours drive from the showground, as we found last night when trying to arrange our day out !
		
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In ref to the first part, GYS doesn't do that, which I think demonstrates quite well that the GYS isn't the place to go for the novices if the showing world!

And for the second part AA, you're right, unless you are willing to stay in Bradford &#55357;&#56834; (I'm allowed to say that I live in Bradford) there'll be loads of accommodation around here. The majority of BFD's population don't even know what a horse is.


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## conniegirl (10 March 2017)

Shay said:



			I think you have been somewhat chewed on OP.  But in my experience that is fairly typical of the showing set.  You've probably made a sensible suggestion for now.  If you really want  to show then take a year  to figure out (if you can) what the world of an equine beauty contest is all about. Otherwise - enjoy him for what  he is.  I think he looks lovely.
		
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I think you will find that we are very nice thankyou I've met the most wonderful people out showing, now showjumping i can tell you some horrific stories about the cattyness and bitchyness (and in some cases down right cruel behavior) but I'm adult enough to recognise that those were a small minority of the showjumping population.

the problem is that people cant stand being told that thier horse is less than perfect. So they ignore the advice of those of us who have been showing a long time, take thier horses to unsuitable shows, end up the wrong end of the line, decided the judge is bent and then decide that showing is evil and nothing more than a shiney pony competition.

What realy needs to happen is people need to take off the rose tinted glasses and say "no the horse does not have the substance, conformation or presence for that level in showing, but you know what he is an excellent eventer/dressage horse/riding club horse"

We in the showing set don't view our horses with rose tinted glasses. Do I think my horse is the best in the world? Yes I do, everyone should have a Lenny as he is amazing and everyone needs that level of awsomeness in thier life! BUT whilst mine is a very very nice horse I am realistic enough to know he wont stand up to the level of the great yorkshire. He will win every time out at local, he will hold his own and be in the placings at agricultural shows and some of the smaller county shows, he will (and has) win rosettes at National champs shows, he may even qualify for RIHS, but a HOYS qualifier? he may just scrape a low placing if i'm lucky. A HOYS qualifier at the biggest, most popular show in the north of the UK, in the main ring against former HOYS Supreme champs? - he doesn't stand a chance.

To put it in an eventing terms taking a horse that is regularly 3rd or 4th in large local shows to the Great yorkshire for a HOYS hunter class would be like taking a horse who has done a few BE 80's and chucking him into a 3* event!
Most horses could manage a BE80 maybe even a BE90, very few ever get to 3* level.


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## babyd (10 March 2017)

conniegirl said:



			I think you will find that we are very nice thankyou I've met the most wonderful people out showing, now showjumping i can tell you some horrific stories about the cattyness and bitchyness (and in some cases down right cruel behavior) but I'm adult enough to recognise that those were a small minority of the showjumping population.

the problem is that people cant stand being told that thier horse is less than perfect. So they ignore the advice of those of us who have been showing a long time, take thier horses to unsuitable shows, end up the wrong end of the line, decided the judge is bent and then decide that showing is evil and nothing more than a shiney pony competition.

What realy needs to happen is people need to take off the rose tinted glasses and say "no the horse does not have the substance, conformation or presence for that level in showing, but you know what he is an excellent eventer/dressage horse/riding club horse"

We in the showing set don't view our horses with rose tinted glasses. Do I think my horse is the best in the world? Yes I do, everyone should have a Lenny as he is amazing and everyone needs that level of awsomeness in thier life! BUT whilst mine is a very very nice horse I am realistic enough to know he wont stand up to the level of the great yorkshire. He will win every time out at local, he will hold his own and be in the placings at agricultural shows and some of the smaller county shows, he will (and has) win rosettes at National champs shows, he may even qualify for RIHS, but a HOYS qualifier? he may just scrape a low placing if i'm lucky. A HOYS qualifier at the biggest, most popular show in the north of the UK, in the main ring against former HOYS Supreme champs? - he doesn't stand a chance.

To put it in an eventing terms taking a horse that is regularly 3rd or 4th in large local shows to the Great yorkshire for a HOYS hunter class would be like taking a horse who has done a few BE 80's and chucking him into a 3* event!
Most horses could manage a BE80 maybe even a BE90, very few ever get to 3* level.
		
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The showing world has a bad name for a lot of reasons - not just because people have had bad experiences. Whilst i think at the top level there is excellent judging, at the lower levels (which is where the majority of people will compete at) there is terrible judging which is solely based on the judges taste and that is always going to leave a sour taste in peoples mouths. This is why I don't show often - i don't do it enough to compete at the top level and the difference in judging at local level is crazy... But i totally agree, you can't give a bad name to the showing community as there is always going to be small minorities of bad apples in every sport. 

You have made a lot of valid points but are entirely misunderstanding what i have said about coming 3rd/4th. As i have previously explained, this was at a large show and the hunter classes were not divided into weights/heights. I had excellent comments from the judge and was advised that he would do well in a small hunter class. He didn't win that particular class as the judge felt he couldn't place him higher than a couple of the large hunters as this was an overall hunter class and he felt they fit the mould better. 

Your point about chucking a BE80 horse into a 3* event is ridiculous. It's an entirely different scenario. Of course any horse could compete at GYS - you may lose horrendously but you are unlikely to put your horse in danger.


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## ester (10 March 2017)

That my take on it, if you aren't doing any harm ie not risking horse, rider, judge or spectators and wish to spend the money even just to get a good picture as said above I don't see the issue. Certainly a fair few welshies get taken to the royal Welsh just because people fancy it.


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## babyd (10 March 2017)

ester said:



			That my take on it, if you aren't doing any harm ie not risking horse, rider, judge or spectators and wish to spend the money even just to get a good picture as said above I don't see the issue. Certainly a fair few welshies get taken to the royal Welsh just because people fancy it.
		
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That was kind of my steer on it until i realised the costs involved in competing in this class! I thought as a young horse it would be great experience and secretly i would love a picture 

I am very competitive though and wouldn't want to come last which is why I asked on here before entering. I picked up some extra knowledge too which is great but some of the rude comments were not asked for... I suppose it is hard to critique from a couple of pictures, especially when some are of a young horse that has developed since the pictures were taken. Some of the attitudes on here make me want to just go and see and maybe prove a few 'smart' people wrong! Too expensive for something i personally find boring though!

Thank you to everyone that has commented. I've definitely taken it all on board and will not be entering the class. WH is probably one for next year for me. I hope you all enjoy the show!


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## conniegirl (10 March 2017)

babyd said:



			I suppose it is hard to critique from a couple of pictures, especially when some are of a young horse that has developed since the pictures were taken. Some of the attitudes on here make me want to just go and see and maybe prove a few 'smart' people wrong! Too expensive for something i personally find boring though!
		
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Those of us who have been showing a long time can judge from photos, particularly of young horses, most of us don't buy them as already up and running mature show horses, we buy them a hairy youngsters who often look rather dubious and gangly, if you have an experienced eye you can see how they will mature and develop.

If you see some of the horses the top producers buy you'd think they were mad. Heck the Humdinger looked like a hairy 3yr old riding club pony when he was discovered, a few years later and he scored 100% conformationaly at HOYS and went supreme.

heck this was my lad a few days after he arrived in the UK as a barely handled 3 yr old straight off an irish hill side.


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## babyd (10 March 2017)

conniegirl said:



			Those of us who have been showing a long time can judge from photos, particularly of young horses, most of us don't buy them as already up and running mature show horses, we buy them a hairy youngsters who often look rather dubious and gangly, if you have an experienced eye you can see how they will mature and develop.

If you see some of the horses the top producers buy you'd think they were mad. Heck the Humdinger looked like a hairy 3yr old riding club pony when he was discovered, a few years later and he scored 100% conformationaly at HOYS and went supreme.

heck this was my lad a few days after he arrived in the UK as a barely handled 3 yr old straight off an irish hill side.





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I'm very confident in the conformation of my horse. He has been complimented on this by professionals on multiple occasions - this includes judges, instructors, vets, physios etc. I was only asking about the hunter class because I don't know what they specifically look for. 

I too bought my horse as a scruffy yearling. 

You may have a trained eye but you just cannot judge what you think you can based on the pictures i've posted. In hindsight I should have taken some specifically for this forum.


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## conniegirl (10 March 2017)

babyd said:



			I'm very confident in the conformation of my horse. He has been complimented on this by professionals on multiple occasions - this includes judges, instructors, vets, physios etc. I was only asking about the hunter class because I don't know what they specifically look for. 

I too bought my horse as a scruffy yearling. 

You may have a trained eye but you just cannot judge what you think you can based on the pictures i've posted. In hindsight I should have taken some specifically for this forum.
		
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And you've had several professionals and panel judges (myself being one of them) on here tell you that whilst he is a nice horse his conformation is less than ideal for the hunter classes, we've even said exactly where we feel his conformation falls down and suggested other routes for him.

TBH im not surprised judges have said he is nice if you are this confrontational in person. I've had to deal with far too many stroppy competitors at shows and now when asked for critique, what I think of the horse or why I placed the horse down the line by someone I sense is blind to thier horses faults I will just say something along the lines of "he's nice but I prefered the others" or "he is nice but the others are just that bit better".


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## babyd (10 March 2017)

conniegirl said:



			And you've had several professionals and panel judges (myself being one of them) on here tell you that whilst he is a nice horse his conformation is less than ideal for the hunter classes, we've even said exactly where we feel his conformation falls down and suggested other routes for him.

TBH im not surprised judges have said he is nice if you are this confrontational in person. I've had to deal with far too many stroppy competitors at shows and now when asked for critique, what I think of the horse or why I placed the horse down the line by someone I sense is blind to thier horses faults I will just say something along the lines of "he's nice but I prefered the others" or "he is nice but the others are just that bit better".
		
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You're unbelievably confrontational and incredibly rude. I haven't once been confrontational on here and you will see from my previous responses that I have taken on advice and thanked people for it. Quite frankly, the way your answers are worded are horrific - all you have done is compare my horse to yours (which you've done such a great job with and shines like a conker) and faulted mine. 

You are now suggesting that my horse has only had nice comments because of the way I handle myself when I'm out. Again, what a disgusting thing to say?! So you're basically saying that my horse is rubbish and only receives compliments to keep me quiet?! Horrific. You're entirely incorrect...once again, and have no right to comment on things like that.

You've made quite a few awful remarks on here that I have ignored but quite frankly, I'm not interested in your opinion anymore so please refrain from commenting again. 

I've encountered some lovely people on here and had some great critique and advice, all of which i have taken on board and I have already stated that i will not be entering GYS this year. I'm sure those same people are cringing at your responses because the showing world already has a bad name and you are just adding to that misconception.


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## lawa (10 March 2017)

To be honest I think you are over reacting. conniegirl has done nothing but to give you advice and examples which you have taken the wrong way. Your horse is nice but not anywhere near the level needed to show and place in a HOYS qualifier ( which is what you came on here to ask) enjoy your lovely horse doing what you are obviously successful at doing.


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## milliepops (10 March 2017)

The problem is when you are asking for the opinions of professionals then you are going to get their honest response.  It's what they are good at, after all, and it wouldn't be in anyone's interest to sugar coat it 
 When you have a horse that you love and cherish then hearing that they are less than perfect can be hard to take  but that's what you were asking for, OP - try to take it on the chin and move on. You know what he's good at, you now know that it's probably best not to set yourself up for a disappointment, and you can carry on enjoying your horse while playing to his strengths.

I had a bit of CC from some of the posters on this thread recently and I'm grateful for their experience - *I* know that my horse is a megastar because I ride her every day and she's done amazing stuff. It's helpful to be told about her faults in relation to the show ring, because I'm a bit blind to them!  I needed to be prepared for that.  I don't think anyone has been rude, FWIW, but I understand how it can sting when someone points out that the apple of your eye isn't perfectly put together...  I've always felt that handsome is as handsome does so learning about showing is requiring a change of mindset!


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## babyd (10 March 2017)

milliepops said:



			The problem is when you are asking for the opinions of professionals then you are going to get their honest response.  It's what they are good at, after all, and it wouldn't be in anyone's interest to sugar coat it 
 When you have a horse that you love and cherish then hearing that they are less than perfect can be hard to take  but that's what you were asking for, OP - try to take it on the chin and move on. You know what he's good at, you now know that it's probably best not to set yourself up for a disappointment, and you can carry on enjoying your horse while playing to his strengths.

I had a bit of CC from some of the posters on this thread recently and I'm grateful for their experience - *I* know that my horse is a megastar because I ride her every day and she's done amazing stuff. It's helpful to be told about her faults in relation to the show ring, because I'm a bit blind to them!  I needed to be prepared for that.  I don't think anyone has been rude, FWIW, but I understand how it can sting when someone points out that the apple of your eye isn't perfectly put together...  I've always felt that handsome is as handsome does so learning about showing is requiring a change of mindset!
		
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I do understand what you're saying but I have taken the critique on the chin and I have moved on... I've thanked people and listened to their advice so much so much so that I am not going to enter - not a lot more i can do than that!  

I'm more than happy for people to give me feedback on my horse but some have been rude. Suggesting that he's only received nice comments because of my attitude is pretty rude in my opinion. And i never asked for opinions on whether he could cope in the GYS environment, that was just a nice addition from a few people and unrelated to my original question.

I asked for the same reason as you did and im 90% happy with the response haha. Thanks for yours and good luck this season


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## only_me (10 March 2017)

OP
Your horse is perfect for you, does what you ask, does a bit of everything and you obviously adore him. 
Personally, in my view (and it is amateurish compared to some of the more experienced show producers on here!) he doesn't have enough quality for a show hunter. I've done a lot of showing, from WHP to show hunters at county so I know what they want and what type they need to be. I show my own at LW. When I first saw the pictures I thought he was a pony, he seems more pony type than horse - not a criticism, just what my initial view was. He doesn't really have the conformation to stand up against the others who would be in your class; at local level he will be fine but at county would be out of depth and tbh not worth the entry. 
If you imagine him as bay, he still doesn't have the body of a hunter, and his head isn't as well set on or hunter appearance. This won't affect his day job!
It depends on what you prefer in a horse - he isn't my type of horse, but he is yours. He is a great all-rounder, but not a county show hunter. sorry if this isn't what you wanted to hear, but tbh I think you would be better off doing local or agricultural shows as you would have more fun and a higher chance of a placing. 

I know you say his conformation has been complimented on, but to me he doesn't have great conformation. He doesn't need to be perfect for what you are doing with him, but he would need to be much better confo wise for showing


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## Bernster (10 March 2017)

milliepops said:



			The problem is when you are asking for the opinions of professionals then you are going to get their honest response.  It's what they are good at, after all, and it wouldn't be in anyone's interest to sugar coat it 
 When you have a horse that you love and cherish then hearing that they are less than perfect can be hard to take  but that's what you were asking for, OP - try to take it on the chin and move on. You know what he's good at, you now know that it's probably best not to set yourself up for a disappointment, and you can carry on enjoying your horse while playing to his strengths.

I had a bit of CC from some of the posters on this thread recently and I'm grateful for their experience - *I* know that my horse is a megastar because I ride her every day and she's done amazing stuff. It's helpful to be told about her faults in relation to the show ring, because I'm a bit blind to them!  I needed to be prepared for that.  I don't think anyone has been rude, FWIW, but I understand how it can sting when someone points out that the apple of your eye isn't perfectly put together...  I've always felt that handsome is as handsome does so learning about showing is requiring a change of mindset!
		
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Completely agree. I realise it's hard on a forum to gauge someone's level of knowledge, and particularly if they're saying things you don't entirely agree with. But you did post asking for info and you've had good info on here, inc from experienced show people. I haven't read anything rude or out of order on here, reading this objectively.  If you know what's not so good, that will help you present him in the best light and choose the right classes for him. 

And you also know what he's great at, and he sounds like a cracking horse who who've had lots of fun with. The fact that he may not be totally suited to one particular thing doesn't detract from his value to you.


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## babyd (10 March 2017)

Bernster said:



			Completely agree. I realise it's hard on a forum to gauge someone's level of knowledge, and particularly if they're saying things you don't entirely agree with. But you did post asking for info and you've had good info on here, inc from experienced show people. I haven't read anything rude or out of order on here, reading this objectively.  If you know what's not so good, that will help you present him in the best light and choose the right classes for him. 

And you also know what he's great at, and he sounds like a cracking horse who who've had lots of fun with. The fact that he may not be totally suited to one particular thing doesn't detract from his value to you.
		
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you can't have read the whole thing if you havent read anything rude! There has been a couple of nasty comments but i'm passed it and will 100% be focussing on eventing/SJ. 

Thank you! He is lovely and very talented. Good luck with your Wobbleberry


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## AdorableAlice (10 March 2017)

Bernster said:



			And you also know what he's great at, and he sounds like a cracking horse who who've had lots of fun with. The fact that he may not be totally suited to one particular thing doesn't detract from his value to you.
		
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The wisest words and the very best advice on this thread and the entire forum.


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## babyd (10 March 2017)

only_me said:



			OP
Your horse is perfect for you, does what you ask, does a bit of everything and you obviously adore him. 
Personally, in my view (and it is amateurish compared to some of the more experienced show producers on here!) he doesn't have enough quality for a show hunter. I've done a lot of showing, from WHP to show hunters at county so I know what they want and what type they need to be. I show my own at LW. When I first saw the pictures I thought he was a pony, he seems more pony type than horse - not a criticism, just what my initial view was. He doesn't really have the conformation to stand up against the others who would be in your class; at local level he will be fine but at county would be out of depth and tbh not worth the entry. 
If you imagine him as bay, he still doesn't have the body of a hunter, and his head isn't as well set on or hunter appearance. This won't affect his day job!
It depends on what you prefer in a horse - he isn't my type of horse, but he is yours. He is a great all-rounder, but not a county show hunter. sorry if this isn't what you wanted to hear, but tbh I think you would be better off doing local or agricultural shows as you would have more fun and a higher chance of a placing. 

I know you say his conformation has been complimented on, but to me he doesn't have great conformation. He doesn't need to be perfect for what you are doing with him, but he would need to be much better confo wise for showing 

Click to expand...

Your answer is what i was looking for, thank you. You're very right, he is quite ponyish.

I will have to politely disagree on your conformation comment though. The fact that he's had this confirmed by vets, physios, instructors and judges leads me to think that i would need to get proper confirmation pictures and post them on here for people to properly critique. I'm genuinely not just being a proud owner here (as it may appear!!) but I have confidence in the people around me who make these comments without me even asking them! 

Thanks


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## babyd (10 March 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			The wisest words and the very best advice on this thread and the entire forum.
		
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I agree!


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## only_me (10 March 2017)

babyd said:



			I will have to politely disagree on your conformation comment though. The fact that he's had this confirmed by vets, physios, instructors and judges leads me to think that i would need to get proper confirmation pictures and post them on here for people to properly critique. I'm genuinely not just being a proud owner here (as it may appear!!) but I have confidence in the people around me who make these comments without me even asking them! 

Thanks
		
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If you are happy with his conformation then you don't need to post on here for others to comment. You will not like the people who comment on his negative aspects, and probably disagree with them, so there won't be much point in posting if all you want is positives. 
The people who will comment on conformation and type are similar people who posted on this thread, so will probably get the same comments or none at all as you will just disagree with them. I'd be very happy with some of the posters on 'this thread  read doing confo on my horse and I would trust their eye. Does it help if I say I'm a physio, instruct and teach stable management inc. confo? I don't profess to know everything and never will, but I learn all the time and different views create a picture! People don't have to have qualifications to look at a horses conformation, I'd rather use a proper horseman like some on this post to judge my horses conformation


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## [59668] (10 March 2017)

The OP took the criticism very well!  Thanked people for their opinions and took them on board.  I think she started taking offence when people got more personal, and called her confrontational, which I honestly don't think she has been!

OP I think you have made a decision?  This forum is a weird place!  Don't worry about it and carry on enjoying your horse.


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## babyd (10 March 2017)

[59668] said:



			The OP took the criticism very well!  Thanked people for their opinions and took them on board.  I think she started taking offence when people got more personal, and called her confrontational, which I honestly don't think she has been!

OP I think you have made a decision?  This forum is a weird place!  Don't worry about it and carry on enjoying your horse.
		
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Thank you so much... i was starting to think i was going crazy!!


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## babyd (10 March 2017)

only_me said:



			If you are happy with his conformation then you don't need to post on here for others to comment. You will not like the people who comment on his negative aspects, and probably disagree with them, so there won't be much point in posting if all you want is positives. 
The people who will comment on conformation and type are similar people who posted on this thread, so will probably get the same comments or none at all as you will just disagree with them. I'd be very happy with some of the posters on 'this thread  read doing confo on my horse and I would trust their eye. Does it help if I say I'm a physio, instruct and teach stable management inc. confo? I don't profess to know everything and never will, but I learn all the time and different views create a picture! People don't have to have qualifications to look at a horses conformation, I'd rather use a proper horseman like some on this post to judge my horses conformation 

Click to expand...

I didn't ask about his conformation though... that's the whole point! I asked for his suitability to a hunter class - granted conformation will make up a large proportion of this but to say that he has bad conformation is just incorrect. Maybe it is just not what the judges will be looking for in this class which is exaclty why i asked the question.

Please don't take this wrong, i promise I'm not being intentionally confrontational, i'm just stating that i'll take my conformation critique from people that have seen him in the flesh.

Thanks for the hunter advice though. All has been taken on board.


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## hollyandivy123 (10 March 2017)

To the OP

a view on life i try to remember is when i look back when i am older do i want to be one of those people who sit there and moans about wishing they had done something or they could have done something if they tried or it should have been me etc.

if i try to do something and i didn't achieve it as least i tried...................went for the job i thought was to high level for me....................went to try to qualify for regional or young event horse..............tried to get the qualification................move from novice to elementary etc.

what you want to achieve or try for is entirely up to you...............but have fun.


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## JennBags (10 March 2017)

babyd said:



			you can't have read the whole thing if you havent read anything rude! There has been a couple of nasty comments but i'm passed it and will 100% be focussing on eventing/SJ. 

Thank you! He is lovely and very talented. Good luck with your Wobbleberry 

Click to expand...

I've read the whole thread and to me, the only person who has come across as rude is yourself.  A couple of people pointed out his conformation faults, but you were asking about his suitability for county level showing and as something like 60% of the marks are attributable to conformation, then conformation is going to be what is commented upon as none of the other posters have seen or ridden your horse which is where the other 40% of the marks come from.


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## babyd (10 March 2017)

hollyandivy123 said:



			To the OP

a view on life i try to remember is when i look back when i am older do i want to be one of those people who sit there and moans about wishing they had done something or they could have done something if they tried or it should have been me etc.

if i try to do something and i didn't achieve it as least i tried...................went for the job i thought was to high level for me....................went to try to qualify for regional or young event horse..............tried to get the qualification................move from novice to elementary etc.

what you want to achieve or try for is entirely up to you...............but have fun.
		
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Thank you!


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## Elf On A Shelf (10 March 2017)

babyd said:



			I didn't ask about his conformation though... that's the whole point! I asked for his suitability to a hunter class - granted conformation will make up a large proportion of this but to say that he has bad conformation is just incorrect.
		
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Well actually you did. You asked if your horse could be a small hunter for the show ring. Which he could at lower levels but not at the level of the GYS. No your horse doesn't have bad conformation at all but he doesn't have spectacular conformation either which is what is required at HOYS level. 

He is more than good enough for what you want/need him to do so go and enjoy him. Have fun with him! That's what owning horses is all about isn't it?!


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## babyd (10 March 2017)

JennBags said:



			I've read the whole thread and to me, the only person who has come across as rude is yourself.  A couple of people pointed out his conformation faults, but you were asking about his suitability for county level showing and as something like 60% of the marks are attributable to conformation, then conformation is going to be what is commented upon as none of the other posters have seen or ridden your horse which is where the other 40% of the marks come from.
		
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This whole thread is getting out of hand. I know I haven't been rude - i have been goaded and refrained from writing ugly remarks. How you can say that others haven't been rude baffles me, especially with the comment about my horse only receiving nice comments to stop me talking... It must be that you prolific posters all stick up for each other.  

Enjoy your group trolling guys, i'm done.


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## milliepops (10 March 2017)

babyd said:



			This whole thread is getting out of hand. I know I haven't been rude - i have been goaded and refrained from writing ugly remarks. How you can say that others haven't been rude baffles me, especially with the comment about my horse only receiving nice comments to stop me talking... It must be that you prolific posters all stick up for each other.  

Enjoy your group trolling guys, i'm done.
		
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I really don't think anything is out of hand here, it started out as a really informative thread with lots of useful contributions and tbh OP you have come across as rather defensive when anyone gave you any feedback that wasn't completely positive.  That's what I meant about taking it on the chin - thanks for the info, good to understand how the judging is likely to work, doesn't change how you feel about your horse.

As for being goaded... now I don't know conniegirl from adam but I think she's been rather restrained only pointing out that you didn't appear to take the feedback very well, whereas you have called her rude, horrific, awful, accused her of saying disgusting things, or that your horse is rubbish - I haven't seen any of that, in fact she has complimented him but offered her opinion of how he would fare at a high profile show.  Who is getting out of hand here?

If you read her posts without the emotion that you are clearly feeling, you'd see that she is comparing her horse in a similar light to yours - as a nice horse who does well at his level, but who would be out of his depth at the show you mentioned right at the start of the thread.

Trolling group?  No, we all come to use the forum to share and gain knowledge and information, we can all learn from each others threads so no one wants to descend to name calling


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## mle22 (10 March 2017)

Well I am mostly an observer of things on here and I think that it was rude and unnecessary to suggest that the OP only got positive comments about her horse because she was confrontational - she didn't come across like that at all, in fact made a real effort to not bite back at provocative comments.


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## ossy (10 March 2017)

Can always rely on millipops to bring some reasoning to the thread, if i had a like button i would be liking her post above.


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## Fidgety (10 March 2017)

ossy said:



			Can always rely on millipops to bring some reasoning to the thread, if i had a like button i would be liking her post above.
		
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You can always add to her reputation (the star under her posting details) .


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## conniegirl (10 March 2017)

milliepops said:



			I really don't think anything is out of hand here, it started out as a really informative thread with lots of useful contributions and tbh OP you have come across as rather defensive when anyone gave you any feedback that wasn't completely positive.  That's what I meant about taking it on the chin - thanks for the info, good to understand how the judging is likely to work, doesn't change how you feel about your horse.

As for being goaded... now I don't know conniegirl from adam but I think she's been rather restrained only pointing out that you didn't appear to take the feedback very well, whereas you have called her rude, horrific, awful, accused her of saying disgusting things, or that your horse is rubbish - I haven't seen any of that, in fact she has complimented him but offered her opinion of how he would fare at a high profile show.  Who is getting out of hand here?

If you read her posts without the emotion that you are clearly feeling, you'd see that she is comparing her horse in a similar light to yours - as a nice horse who does well at his level, but who would be out of his depth at the show you mentioned right at the start of the thread.

Trolling group?  No, we all come to use the forum to share and gain knowledge and information, we can all learn from each others threads so no one wants to descend to name calling 

Click to expand...

Thankyou! Actually after reading one of her posts I typed out a rather angry reply, said what I was really thinking (and I can guarantee the op would have had real reason to call me rude then) . Then I sat on it for a while and deleted it before posting it.

Next time I know my answer needs to be "yes of course it will win HOYS" and then let her get on with it, but then invariably we would end up with the standard "showing is fixed" "the judge is blind" or "the judge was bent" thread that happens when people can't remove the rose tinted glasses


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## conniegirl (10 March 2017)

Fidgety said:



			You can always add to her reputation (the star under her posting details) .
		
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Is that possible on the mobile version?


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## alainax (10 March 2017)

conniegirl said:



			Is that possible on the mobile version?
		
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Yup!


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## conniegirl (10 March 2017)

alainax said:



			Yup!
		
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ETA found it!


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## AdorableAlice (10 March 2017)

Here is one I had set my heart on being a small, but sadly not good enough.














So I have decided to do grand prix on this instead, what do you think ?  same colour as Valegro, got flashy white legs and he I could buy him a bit of bling ?  Op, this is light hearted and not being rude.


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## babyd (10 March 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			Here is one I had set my heart on being a small, but sadly not good enough.













So I have decided to do grand prix on this instead, what do you think ?  same colour as Valegro, got flashy white legs and he I could buy him a bit of bling ?  Op, this is light hearted and not being rude.






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Haha! They are both very cute but you're wrong about the youngster - you should be aiming him at Badminton - he's the perfect type for it!


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## AdorableAlice (10 March 2017)

babyd said:



			Haha! They are both very cute but you're wrong about the youngster - you should be aiming him at Badminton - he's the perfect type for it!
		
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We could turn him into a fence !, turn him upside down and dress him in spruce, you are a genius babyd.


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## babyd (10 March 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			We could turn him into a fence !, turn him upside down and dress him in spruce, you are a genius babyd.
		
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&#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;. Is he actually yours? Out of interest what class would you aim him at? He's a beaut &#55357;&#56845;


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## AdorableAlice (10 March 2017)

babyd said:



			&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;&#65533;. Is he actually yours? Out of interest what class would you aim him at? He's a beaut &#65533;&#65533;
		
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Oh yes, he is mine, he has his own thread, started back in 2012 and still going today, I have just updated it this evening - 'my next equine project.  It has been, shall we say, quite a journey.

Here he is grown up.


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## cundlegreen (10 March 2017)

OP, following on from what will and won't catch the eye in the big qualifiers, some pics of my 15.2hh. Really ponyish (welsh D cross TB). I will take a punt putting her in RIHS and HOYS Working Hunter qualifiers. NOT because she is a true Working Hunter, (much too small), but because I know that IF we can qualify, she will jump the championship tracks. The jumping photo is her over a 1-25m fence, she has also jumped clear in Intermediate event classes, regularly beating olympic and 4* riders. She looks ridiculous against the big horses, but, like her mother, has the jump for the big tracks. So I am happy to fork out and give it a go. I am realistic that she won't get the best ride mark because she is a pony type, and her conformation also won't get marked highly again, because she isn't really a hunter. However, the jumping phase and style mark will count for her. As you can see, I am realistic about her chances.


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## babyd (10 March 2017)

cundlegreen said:



			OP, following on from what will and won't catch the eye in the big qualifiers, some pics of my 15.2hh. Really ponyish (welsh D cross TB). I will take a punt putting her in RIHS and HOYS Working Hunter qualifiers. NOT because she is a true Working Hunter, (much too small), but because I know that IF we can qualify, she will jump the championship tracks. The jumping photo is her over a 1-25m fence, she has also jumped clear in Intermediate event classes, regularly beating olympic and 4* riders. She looks ridiculous against the big horses, but, like her mother, has the jump for the big tracks. So I am happy to fork out and give it a go. I am realistic that she won't get the best ride mark because she is a pony type, and her conformation also won't get marked highly again, because she isn't really a hunter. However, the jumping phase and style mark will count for her. As you can see, I am realistic about her chances.















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She is stunning! She looks entirely different to Dexter too - probably less ponyish tbh so i do understand where you are coming from.


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## cundlegreen (10 March 2017)

babyd said:



			She is stunning! She looks entirely different to Dexter too - probably less ponyish tbh so i do understand where you are coming from.
		
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Trust me, when you see her working in with the proper event horses, she looks hilarious! She's got a quick little stride too, but she never misses a beat XC, and  usually has one of the faster times.


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## AdorableAlice (10 March 2017)

cundlegreen said:



			Trust me, when you see her working in with the proper event horses, she looks hilarious! She's got a quick little stride too, but she never misses a beat XC, and  usually has one of the faster times.
		
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So did Headley Brittania, didn't stop her.


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## ycbm (10 March 2017)

cundlegreen said:



			Trust me, when you see her working in with the proper event horses, she looks hilarious! She's got a quick little stride too, but she never misses a beat XC, and  usually has one of the faster times.
		
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No-one laughed at Charisma.

Super little mare


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## Dynamo (10 March 2017)

OP, I think you've already made your decision, but if you did want to have a go at one of the County shows then there are others in the Yorkshire area that do have local rider classes, or that have RIHS Amateur classes where you could compete at less expense on a day ticket and not be up against professional show riders.  You'll find them on the SHBGB website.  

I won't repeat what others have already said, other than to say that to me the horse looks like a 15h whp, and if he measures 15.2 to you, then a show horse producer would be aiming to get him measured at 15h.  The small hunters generally appear to be a lot bigger than 15.2, partly because of how they are measured, and partly because of how they are produced for the ring, and partly because of that indefinable thing called presence.  

I think another consideration that no-one has mentioned, is that for many (perhaps most) competitors in the GYS hunter classes, this isn't a jolly day out - it's a work day and this is their job.  So if a rider who is not fully conversant with what is required - and from the questions asked it's clear that that is the case - happened to get in the way or just do the wrong thing at the wrong moment, then that rider might well get short shrift and it could spoil the whole experience.  Not because people are horrible or anything, but simply because it is work, and it's competitive, and there is a lot at stake in terms of reputation, livelihood, delivering on clients' expectations, etc.  

There's a lot to be said for just doing the things you want to do if you can afford it, as others have said, BUT and it's a big BUT, I'm not sure how enjoyable that experience would actually be if you felt that other competitors were looking down on you.  Some people don't care about this sort of thing; some people do.  If you're significantly out-classed then other competitors WILL look down on you; spectators will look down on you; grooms will look down on you.  Not one person in that ring is going to say, "Oh just tuck in behind me because I don't care how well I do."   Everyone is there to win, and once that gate closes it's war - very polite, very charming, but war just the same.

And someone made the comment that plenty of people take their welshies to the Royal Welsh just for the once in a lifetime experience.  Yes, they do.  But welsh showing, even at its best, has an element of.... what shall I say... exuberant welsh character about it, whether in-hand or under saddle, and there's always a lot of bluster and snorting and less than perfect manners, and the riders come from all walks of life and the most experienced are used to negotiating their way around chaotic rings, and the least experienced are just hanging in there.  Hunter showing, however, is a whole different ball game, a whole different etiquette, a whole different level of professionalism, and it's difficult enough to be accepted even with a top class horse and lifetime's ring experience.


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## Bernster (10 March 2017)

Fidgety said:



			You can always add to her reputation (the star under her posting details) .
		
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Ooh just discovered this button !!


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## ester (10 March 2017)

Wrong thread


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## siennamum (11 March 2017)

Hi Babyd. I had a similar dilemma to you with my mare who was too small for 'normal' hunter classes but still a true hunter.
Sienna did compete with success at small County shows & large agricultural shows. We would usually be pulled in mid rank after the go round and then move to the top 5 after the judges ride. 
It is great fun going to a larger show and if you pick your show you often find that there are not many entries compared to a local show, I found that for unaffiliated classes, you get a cheap entry for you and a mate to the big show and a lovely day out.
If you enjoy your showing and get more miles under your belt also do try Search for a Star. What Sienna did very well at is Riding Club horse - as I suspect yours would. here is a picture of her to give you some encouragement & just because:


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## JennBags (11 March 2017)

Irish gal said:



			I've been following the thread with interest and I would like to pick up on a point the OP made earlier. About how it's so hard for a horse to convey presence from a photo. I have to disagree with you and I'll tell you why. I hope the pictures come out here but otherwise the links are there so just click to see.

I'm an agent and my job is talent spotting. So I was out looking for some nice horses at a very small show, the first of the year and I spotted this lad. His first show ever, green as grass last year. Couldn't take my eyes of him. He was in the middle of the line-up at the end of the show hunters. But I knew there was something special about him.

He proved me right going on to be Supreme Champion at county and Regional shows and being in the top three at the Dublin horse show. But my point is this, of all the horses this lad - off photos alone was the most sought after on my sales page last year. He simply has it - the presence and the x factor - and these were queries not just from showing people but general riders, eventers - basically everybody. The horse just has it, so I have to say that yes presence can be seen from just a photo! I suppose that's why the modelling industry is so big






Click to expand...

Fixed it for you. You need to "share", "get links" and copy the "direct" link, then paste it between [IMG ] and [/img ] but without the spaces (capitalisation doesn't matter either way).  He's gorgeous by the way!


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## Irish gal (11 March 2017)

JennBags said:



			Fixed it for you. You need to "share", "get links" and copy the "direct" link, then paste it between [IMG ] and [/img ] but without the spaces (capitalisation doesn't matter either way).  He's gorgeous by the way!
		
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JennBags, thank you so much - you're a star. Spent blimmin' ages trying to do that last night to no avail. Will try it with your directions - not holding my breath though. May have to call in tech savvy youngster!!

Now that's a horse with presence and a whole lot more besides - so glad people can see the photo


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## ester (11 March 2017)

Ah I did get the right one  I thought I had and it was a brilliant point made then had a panic about facial markings being different  

I'm not sure if sfas riding club horse is still going with the change around?


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## conniegirl (11 March 2017)

ester said:



			Ah I did get the right one  I thought I had and it was a brilliant point made then had a panic about facial markings being different  

I'm not sure if sfas riding club horse is still going with the change around?
		
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No it isnt.


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## siennamum (11 March 2017)

conniegirl said:



			No it isnt.
		
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That's a shame its a great class fr all the inbetween horses


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## babyd (11 March 2017)

Dynamo said:



			OP, I think you've already made your decision, but if you did want to have a go at one of the County shows then there are others in the Yorkshire area that do have local rider classes, or that have RIHS Amateur classes where you could compete at less expense on a day ticket and not be up against professional show riders.  You'll find them on the SHBGB website.  

I won't repeat what others have already said, other than to say that to me the horse looks like a 15h whp, and if he measures 15.2 to you, then a show horse producer would be aiming to get him measured at 15h.  The small hunters generally appear to be a lot bigger than 15.2, partly because of how they are measured, and partly because of how they are produced for the ring, and partly because of that indefinable thing called presence.  

I think another consideration that no-one has mentioned, is that for many (perhaps most) competitors in the GYS hunter classes, this isn't a jolly day out - it's a work day and this is their job.  So if a rider who is not fully conversant with what is required - and from the questions asked it's clear that that is the case - happened to get in the way or just do the wrong thing at the wrong moment, then that rider might well get short shrift and it could spoil the whole experience.  Not because people are horrible or anything, but simply because it is work, and it's competitive, and there is a lot at stake in terms of reputation, livelihood, delivering on clients' expectations, etc.  

There's a lot to be said for just doing the things you want to do if you can afford it, as others have said, BUT and it's a big BUT, I'm not sure how enjoyable that experience would actually be if you felt that other competitors were looking down on you.  Some people don't care about this sort of thing; some people do.  If you're significantly out-classed then other competitors WILL look down on you; spectators will look down on you; grooms will look down on you.  Not one person in that ring is going to say, "Oh just tuck in behind me because I don't care how well I do."   Everyone is there to win, and once that gate closes it's war - very polite, very charming, but war just the same.

And someone made the comment that plenty of people take their welshies to the Royal Welsh just for the once in a lifetime experience.  Yes, they do.  But welsh showing, even at its best, has an element of.... what shall I say... exuberant welsh character about it, whether in-hand or under saddle, and there's always a lot of bluster and snorting and less than perfect manners, and the riders come from all walks of life and the most experienced are used to negotiating their way around chaotic rings, and the least experienced are just hanging in there.  Hunter showing, however, is a whole different ball game, a whole different etiquette, a whole different level of professionalism, and it's difficult enough to be accepted even with a top class horse and lifetime's ring experience.
		
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This is brilliant. Thank you. I've taken everything in and appreciate what you have all said. Dexter does have presence  but more akin to a pony... you're all right! 

How would they measure him in at 15hh then? Make him slouch? I'm actually being serious haha. The reason I know he's 15.2 (with front shoes!) is that I've been willing him to grow since he was a yearling and I constantly measure haha. I never thought that one day I'd maybe want him smaller... WH looks a lot more fun (imo) and I hadn't realised that the hunters was so professional - that isn't said in any derogatory way btw!!

And I'm certainly not made of money and I wouldn't want to be laughed out of the ring! I suppose I can be more critical today as we've just had a cracking day out combined training and I love him for what he is &#128514;&#128514;. 

BUT I tell you one thing... if he sees a Shetland, you've never seen presence like it!!

Thanks for going into so much detail. And thank you to the talent spotter too - your horse is gorgeous!


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## babyd (11 March 2017)

siennamum said:



			Hi Babyd. I had a similar dilemma to you with my mare who was too small for 'normal' hunter classes but still a true hunter.
Sienna did compete with success at small County shows & large agricultural shows. We would usually be pulled in mid rank after the go round and then move to the top 5 after the judges ride. 
It is great fun going to a larger show and if you pick your show you often find that there are not many entries compared to a local show, I found that for unaffiliated classes, you get a cheap entry for you and a mate to the big show and a lovely day out.
If you enjoy your showing and get more miles under your belt also do try Search for a Star. What Sienna did very well at is Riding Club horse - as I suspect yours would. here is a picture of her to give you some encouragement & just because:





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Stunning. Thank you for the advice - certainly a lot to think about and I will looks into search for a star!


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## ycbm (11 March 2017)

They make them 15 hands when they are really 15.2 by dehydration or by putting them in a horse walker for 12 or more hours before they are measured. I've also heard of horses taught to shrink down from the stick by using one with a pin in it.

A friend of mine turned up at the yard of a big dealer once and saw a tired looking horse in the walker. 'Oh, I'm shrinking that one for his life height certificate' said the dealer.


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## Dynamo (11 March 2017)

Oh, lordy, don't get me started on measuring...   Yes, they make him slouch.  I'm being serious too.  

Shoes off (half an inch) and hooves trimmed back so much that the horse can only just walk (another half an inch); a big exhausting ride the day before (half an inch), and then tied up all night with no water so that the horse is dehydrated (the last half inch), and yes, exactly as you say, he will then slouch.  And when they stand on the pad they are allowed to spread the feet slightly - depending on the vet - and the head lowers because the horse is exhausted and wiped out, and there you are... 15h.

ETS cross posted with ycbm.  Oh yes, I had forgotten the pin thing.


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## babyd (11 March 2017)

ycbm said:



			They make them 15 hands when they are really 15.2 by dehydration or by putting them in a horse walker for 12 or more hours before they are measured. I've also heard of horses taught to shrink down from the stick by using one with a pin in it.

A friend of mine turned up at the yard of a big dealer once and saw a tired looking horse in the walker. 'Oh, I'm shrinking that one for his life height certificate' said the dealer.
		
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Dynamo said:



			Oh, lordy, don't get me started on measuring...   Yes, they make him slouch.  I'm being serious too.  

Shoes off (half an inch) and hooves trimmed back so much that the horse can only just walk (another half an inch); a big exhausting ride the day before (half an inch), and then tied up all night with no water so that the horse is dehydrated (the last half inch), and yes, exactly as you say, he will then slouch.  And when they stand on the pad they are allowed to spread the feet slightly - depending on the vet - and the head lowers because the horse is exhausted and wiped out, and there you are... 15h.

ETS cross posted with ycbm.  Oh yes, I had forgotten the pin thing.
		
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Omg this is vile!! I'd be using the pin to make mine stand up tall &#128514;&#128514;

Interesting info, I knew it was done but never knew how!! That's crazy!! Thanks for the info!

Now... to get entered to that WHP... must invest in a horse walker first &#128540;


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## conniegirl (11 March 2017)

Actually there is no need to go to such extremes to get a horse who measure 15.2hh at home with shoes on to measure in at 15hh on a pad without.
Take the shoes off, trim the feet (no need to cripple the horse), clip the wither with surgical clipping blades and get the horse relaxed on the pad (get lots and lots of people to stick a stick on your horse in all sorts of situations
Most will measure at least 2" smaller that way.

Vets will now test for dehydration before measuring and they will also drugs test if they feel the need.
My current lad measures 16.1hh at home in shoes, on a pad without shoes he measures 157.6cms so just shy of 15.2hh, no nasty methods or dehydrating. His feet were done the morning of measureing and whilst very short they were not sore


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## Dynamo (11 March 2017)

Of course, not everyone goes to extremes, OP.  As Conniegirl says, an official measurement is almost always smaller than any measurement that is done at home.  I think it's fair to say that almost every horse in the ring will measure a good inch or two bigger than 15.2 at home, some more than others.

Glad you had a good day doing combined training.  That must be fun, and much more rewarding I'd have thought.


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## WelshD (11 March 2017)

An awful lot of measuring activity happens early in the year when a horse may have wintered out and is at its leanest once they start conditioning for the shows they may measure bigger. That's why you often see tactical height objections after a big qualifier or before the biggest shows 

I think this thread shows what I see every day on Facebook groups (and please don't take this personally OP) that if one horse isn't suitable for a certain class you cant simply shoehorn it in elsewhere once you are past local level. Showing is very underestimated and not seen as a discipline in its own right but the intricacies of it are literally mind blowing, I've followed it closely for many years but never fail to be amazed at the encyclopedic knowledge and attention to detail of the very successful as demonstrated by some on this thread.


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## LPL (11 March 2017)

babyd said:



			This is brilliant. Thank you. I've taken everything in and appreciate what you have all said. Dexter does have presence  but more akin to a pony... you're all right! 

How would they measure him in at 15hh then? Make him slouch? I'm actually being serious haha. The reason I know he's 15.2 (with front shoes!) is that I've been willing him to grow since he was a yearling and I constantly measure haha. I never thought that one day I'd maybe want him smaller... WH looks a lot more fun (imo) and I hadn't realised that the hunters was so professional - that isn't said in any derogatory way btw!!

And I'm certainly not made of money and I wouldn't want to be laughed out of the ring! I suppose I can be more critical today as we've just had a cracking day out combined training and I love him for what he is &#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;. 

BUT I tell you one thing... if he sees a Shetland, you've never seen presence like it!!

Thanks for going into so much detail. And thank you to the talent spotter too - your horse is gorgeous!
		
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Were you at Port Royal today?! I saw a roan and thought hmm that looks like the pony from the showing thread!


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## alainax (11 March 2017)

Very interesting about the measuring. I have a 12hh+ pony and only just recently learned that's the max height for lead rein. I've not measured him properly as he ducks away from the measuring stick ( might not be a bad thing, he literally squats down away from it lol!). It's nice to know they measure in a little shorter but crazy the lengths people go to!


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## AdorableAlice (11 March 2017)

I wonder if I tried the opposite - fed her loads and left her stood in a foot of muck, you know,like growing a giant vegetable, would mine grow a bit !


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## babyd (11 March 2017)

LPL said:



			Were you at Port Royal today?! I saw a roan and thought hmm that looks like the pony from the showing thread!
		
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Omg yeah... cringing, I'm so famous &#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;

Edit...

BUT he is a horse haha


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## rara007 (11 March 2017)

When we got our coloured we were keen for him to measure in over 148cm so he could do cob classes as well as the coloured pony (cob, trad native) classes with adult male rider. (Yes, obviously he'd have been small in the class but we usually only want to do one day showing and coloureds often on different day to the natives). Only had his final LHC to do, shoes off but feet not trimmed, previously measured at 147.3 twice, he came in at 146cm! Coblet he is for life then  He's been asked by cob 'people' more than once if he is waiting for the HW class- He's not even close! But out of a lineup you can't tell. Just today with my 130cm (12.3) pony we were a good hand taller than the supposed 13.2. Measuring both showing and FEI is a different world to the size people think their horses are!


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## babyd (11 March 2017)

rara007 said:



			When we got our coloured we were keen for him to measure in over 148cm so he could do cob classes as well as the coloured pony (cob, trad native) classes with adult male rider. Only had his final LHC to do, shoes off but feet not trimmed, previously measured at 147.3 twice, he came in at 146cm! Coblet he is for life then  Not even close! Just today with my 130cm (12.3) pony we were a good hand taller than the supposed 13.2. Measuring both showing and FEI is a different world to the size people think their horses are!
		
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I'm just Gona say Dexter is 16.2 then... FEI meaurement for sure! That would be a dream


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## rara007 (11 March 2017)

For horses for FEI there's a suspicious lack of 15.3, 16.1, 16.3 etc as they're just not measured (as they don't have to be). Everything is 16hh (small) 16.2 (medium) or 17hh (large)!


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## LPL (11 March 2017)

Hahahaha ooooops that was a genuine mistake. He is quite ponyish hahaha. He looked a really useful type. Definitely looked to be having a good time. I was stood right next to you!


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## babyd (11 March 2017)

LPL said:



			Hahahaha ooooops that was a genuine mistake. He is quite ponyish hahaha. He looked a really useful type. Definitely looked to be having a good time. I was stood right next to you!
		
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How weird!!! Which one were you? I think a pic is necessary! 

He was v good... unfortunately scared of the posters by the dresssage ring though!! Wasn't all that helpful! At least I know what to practice! We came 5th, how did you do?


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## LPL (11 March 2017)

I was there with a friend, not riding today. I was stood outside the sj ring in brown Brown jods and a wax jacket. I was admiring your bridle and eavesdropping on a convo the lady you were with was having with the brown/Appaloosa horse haha. 

Good result then, I really like the sj arena at port royal but I have had the worst results ever in that dressage ring!!


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## babyd (11 March 2017)

LPL said:



			I was there with a friend, not riding today. I was stood outside the sj ring in brown Brown jods and a wax jacket. I was admiring your bridle and eavesdropping on a convo the lady you were with was having with the brown/Appaloosa horse haha. 

Good result then, I really like the sj arena at port royal but I have had the worst results ever in that dressage ring!!
		
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That is so strange!! So funny, I will have definitely seen you then! 

The SJ is pretty daunting there... always full up and a filler under every jump! Good practice though. 

Slightly off topic, but on the bridle, did you like it? Honest opinions haha.
I think I've gone off it and will probably sell it but not sure what to get instead!


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## LPL (11 March 2017)

I absolutely loved it! I think it really suited him and wished I'd researched a bit more before I bought my new one!


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## babyd (11 March 2017)

LPL said:



			I absolutely loved it! I think it really suited him and wished I'd researched a bit more before I bought my new one!
		
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Oh thanks! If I decide to sell it I'll do your a good price haha


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## cundlegreen (11 March 2017)

No need for extreme measures for reducing height. I've been to a top show yard where they are very good at getting ponies measured in. They simply have a bar across the stable entrance that the horse has to go under to get out.


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## SO1 (12 March 2017)

I agree with others your horse is a not a traditional small hunter type, he has more of a pony face and his colour as well, he looks more like a large pony than a small horse, but if think you will be safe and the judge will be safe riding your horse at a big county show and you don't mind not getting placed and you want to have the experience of riding there then why not give it a go. It will be very competitive and there will be a lot of professionals there on experienced established horses, than have come through affiliated showing starting with the affiliated novice classes {bearing in mind that novices are often horses that have not won prize money or qualified for HOYS so the standards can still be really high}.

If you want to give it a go then maybe go watch the class this year and then if you still want to go then perhaps do some affiliated novice and amateur hunter classes and see how you get on and see if you enjoy it. 

I can understand why you want to go, I am very much an amateur and have a native pony, and I won't win classes at big shows even though I have a very smart pony, and the reason we won't win is because of me, I am not good at ring craft and I am not a good enough rider to school him up to the level required but I still like to take him to some county or big shows occasionally, {mainly in hand}] because I want to experience the atmosphere and the excitement and just be part of it. I have qualified him for a national showing championships and probably won't get placed but will still go so and enjoy it. However when we are standing around waiting he does look good and I remember being at show where there was a HOYS qualifier and someone asked me if we were entered in it {we weren't there is no way I would enter a HOYS qualifier!}. So even if you have the perfect horse conformation wise there is still the human element to take into consideration - I am not saying you are not a good handler/rider but more experienced showing professionals or amateurs will probably have the edge on you there too.

With regard to conformation your horse could have good conformation but not the right sort for the class. For example my pony has good conformation for a native pony of his breed but it would not considered good conformation in the small hunter class.


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## SO1 (12 March 2017)

What is your horses breeding?

His face looks a bit like my new forest {not an example of a small hunter in case anyone was wondering}






[/IMG]


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## babyd (13 March 2017)

SO1 said:



			I agree with others your horse is a not a traditional small hunter type, he has more of a pony face and his colour as well, he looks more like a large pony than a small horse, but if think you will be safe and the judge will be safe riding your horse at a big county show and you don't mind not getting placed and you want to have the experience of riding there then why not give it a go. It will be very competitive and there will be a lot of professionals there on experienced established horses, than have come through affiliated showing starting with the affiliated novice classes {bearing in mind that novices are often horses that have not won prize money or qualified for HOYS so the standards can still be really high}.

If you want to give it a go then maybe go watch the class this year and then if you still want to go then perhaps do some affiliated novice and amateur hunter classes and see how you get on and see if you enjoy it. 

I can understand why you want to go, I am very much an amateur and have a native pony, and I won't win classes at big shows even though I have a very smart pony, and the reason we won't win is because of me, I am not good at ring craft and I am not a good enough rider to school him up to the level required but I still like to take him to some county or big shows occasionally, {mainly in hand}] because I want to experience the atmosphere and the excitement and just be part of it. I have qualified him for a national showing championships and probably won't get placed but will still go so and enjoy it. However when we are standing around waiting he does look good and I remember being at show where there was a HOYS qualifier and someone asked me if we were entered in it {we weren't there is no way I would enter a HOYS qualifier!}. So even if you have the perfect horse conformation wise there is still the human element to take into consideration - I am not saying you are not a good handler/rider but more experienced showing professionals or amateurs will probably have the edge on you there too.

With regard to conformation your horse could have good conformation but not the right sort for the class. For example my pony has good conformation for a native pony of his breed but it would not considered good conformation in the small hunter class.
		
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Thanks for your detailed response. Good luck this year!


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## babyd (13 March 2017)

SO1 said:



			What is your horses breeding?

His face looks a bit like my new forest {not an example of a small hunter in case anyone was wondering}






[/IMG]
		
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His mum was welsh x (i guess NF because i would agree with you and his mane can get wild!) and his dad is a Knabstrupper. Random mix!


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