# Problem training a young stallion to 'work'



## JanetGeorge (11 May 2011)

I have a 5 year old stallion - never covered a mare - has been backed 18 months and working nicely and is a VERY polite, well-mannered stallion.

We picked his first mare - a nice sensible sort - and set to work. He teased
her very nicely and tried to mount (but muffed it) and lost interest.  Next day she was out!

Second mare became available. He teased her very nicely - she was very
receptive - so got her ready and brought him in. He was definitely interested
and 'in a ready state'! But would he jump? Would he heck! She did everything bar get down on her knees to help him - and he was showing plenty of interest - but he declined hopping on!

I suspected the Chifney might have put him off (he's never needed one for normal handling but I thought it would be sensible for him to have a 'special' bit for covering as he's also heading for competition.) 

So today, we took him to her just in a headcollar.  Mare was 100% co-operative, he was 100% interested, but wouldn't take the final step! 

This mare has a foal at foot so I wouldn't dare turn him out with her, but the
first mare could be short-cycled and turned out with him in due course in the hope that nature takes over.  Has anyone met this problem before - or have any suggestions as to how to help him understand what's wanted??

I should add that he's more than happy to jump 3'6" and is in excellent health (I did think maybe putting a coloured pole behind her might give him the idea )


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## sallyf (11 May 2011)

Trained one like him last year ,owners had been trying for 2 months and they arnt amateurs .
We took a bit of an unorthadox route and had him on the AI dummy within half an hour of him arriving.
Spent a week getting his confidence on the dummy and then introduced him to a mare.
Went to the stud to cover with him at the beginning of the season and he is the most polite and well behaved stallion ever.


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## JanetGeorge (11 May 2011)

sallyf said:



			We took a bit of an unorthadox route and had him on the AI dummy within half an hour of him arriving.
		
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I think I need to know more about the 'unorthodox' route -  though we don't have a dummy!


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## Jamana (11 May 2011)

Whenever you start a stallion off covering its a good idea to let him try her over a trying board or gate(not shut and clad in rubber matting)do this for if either he or she kicks out then there is less chance of injury.Don't make the mistake of letting him immediately rush up to the mares head as this can scare her encouraging her to lash out it can put a young stallion off,its always best to get a mare who has had plenty of foals and knows the score.If all is still going well and he is keen then move both of them into the covering barn make him wait until she is standing still and ready for him to mount her,do this taking him into her shoulder NOT right up under her tail as she could again lash out and put him off,he most likely will want to bite her under her belly even as far under as her bag try to allow him to try her  but don't allow him to really hard bite her if by then he's getting really ready to try a jump then pull him back and push with your shoulder at the same time sort of lift his head up all the time encouraging him to jump,it may take a few goes but he will get the hang of it.Once up most new sires tend to flap their front legs about this is where a very experienced mare is vital if he gets too far up the mares neck get him off and start again once he 'gets her' he may fall off half way through but he will get better each time.When he has finished just gently pull him off and DON'T allow him to turn as this is when he may both barrel her or she him,and always make sure whoever is helping you is not the nervous type as people seem to think the stallion is the only one you need to be careful of mares are just as dangerous and can badly injure someone,try to keep it as quiet as you can and always carry a stick don't mind wave it around its just a guide.


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## TarrSteps (11 May 2011)

Aside from the general advice about stallions, which I think you've got covered (sorry, couldn't resist). . . someone I worked for had a youngster who showed interest but didn't seem to be able to figure out what to do.  Eventually he was turned out with an older, fairly small, very receptive mare (I think they brought her into season artificially) in a small paddock.  It took a day or two but he got the picture.

I do know a few older horses that started late and seemed to struggle getting over having been told not to show any aggressive interest up to that point.  One thing that seemed to help was having someone different handle them for breeding, who didn't handle them any other time, and not using any tack or approach similar to how they were handled the rest of the time. (So no bit, different halter, long line etc)

If turning out isn't an option, what about stabling him with cycling mares, if he isn't now?  You might have to rile him up a bit

Also, what about standing the mare downhill or in a ditch?  That can work for pony stallions who are reluctant to cover larger mares.  Can you sort something where the mare backs in to him, rather than him coming forward?  I've actually seen a mare manoeuvre this on her own!


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## madmare22 (11 May 2011)

Your post is very helpful jamana, however i dont think janet needs a lesson in stallion handling being a very experienced lady with a 17.2 ID stallion, i just dont think she has ever not had one jump when given the chance

i had this last year with a young stallion janet, he was all for it but just wouldnt jump, i sent him to tullis to dummy train, they had him on the mare in less than 10 mins and next time on the dummy, maybe worth asking him, he seems to be able to train stallions to jump most things


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## Jamana (11 May 2011)

madmare22 said:



			Your post is very helpful jamana, however i dont think janet needs a lesson in stallion handling being a very experienced lady with a 17.2 ID stallion, i just dont think she has ever not had one jump when given the chance
		
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I will point out that Janet started this thread stating she had a problem with one horse. At no point in my reply have I intimated that Janet does not know how to handle a stallion,17.2 or otherwise. Size makes very little difference.

All  I have done in my post is give my technique on starting a young stallion, as a Stallion Man of more than 20yrs on TB studs I feel that I am not out of order in anything I have put. I have started numerous young colts out of training and I was trying to give some constructive help.

Everyone can come up against something new or a situation that is unusual and asking for or giving help is not a display of weakness or lack of knowledge. Giving advice is not being patronising nor is it belittling someone asking for help. 

I am surprised at your stance Madmare.


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## magic104 (11 May 2011)

Jamana said:



			I will point out that Janet started this thread stating she had a problem with one horse. At no point in my reply have I intimated that Janet does not know how to handle a stallion,17.2 or otherwise. Size makes very little difference.

All  I have done in my post is give my technique on starting a young stallion, as a Stallion Man of more than 20yrs on TB studs I feel that I am not out of order in anything I have put. I have started numerous young colts out of training and I was trying to give some constructive help.

Everyone can come up against something new or a situation that is unusual and asking for or giving help is not a display of weakness or lack of knowledge. Giving advice is not being patronising nor is it belittling someone asking for help. 

I am surprised at your stance Madmare.
		
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In Madmares defence, your reply seemed to be aimed more at someone new to teaching a stallion how to behave.  Rather then someone who has the experience but has never come across one who did not want to jump the mare.


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## Jamana (11 May 2011)

magic104 said:



			In Madmares defence, your reply seemed to be aimed more at someone new to teaching a stallion how to behave.  Rather then someone who has the experience but has never come across one who did not want to jump the mare.
		
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How was I supposed to reply then? 

"Janet, you know everything so do whatever you think is best"

Why ask a question if any replies are shot down? 

(This obv is not directed at OP as she has not made any comment)


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## JanetGeorge (11 May 2011)

Jamana said:



			Size makes very little difference.
		
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It does when they jump on your foot! 

I'm going to try popping the AV on him and see if that gets him motivated!  If that doesn't work, I'll short cycle Dolly and run her with him, I think (as she is VERY quiet and doesn't have a foal at foot this year.)

We had tried taking him up near the shoulder and that was the ONLY time he tried to jump - he straddled himself across her back and couldn't work out what to do next.  I confess we laughed at him - probably hurt his feelings!

We tried backing the mare into him - that got him excited - just not enough!

Bless him - he's such a well-mannered boy - maybe he thinks they should sit down and have dinner and a drink first!


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## madmare22 (11 May 2011)

Bloody hell !


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## JanetGeorge (11 May 2011)

Jamana said:



			How was I supposed to reply then? 

"Janet, you know everything so do whatever you think is best"

Why ask a question if any replies are shot down? 

(This obv is not directed at OP as she has not made any comment)
		
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I appreciate ALL responses.  If some of it is at a more basic level, then that's good too - as a lot of people read this forum WITHOUT posting questions - they just look for answers.  On a thread like this it's vital the basics ARE covered - as a lot of people set out to have a stallion at stud with little or no experience!

One I heard of on an American list - the stallion owner didn't know the mares' tails should be bandaged - although she'd seen it done she didn't know why!  She does now - her stallion got caught on some mare tail hair and sliced the most delicate part of his anatomy along its whole length.  It couldn't be healed!


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## Revena (11 May 2011)

Jamana - very useful answer, I have personally never been tempted to have a stallion but extra knowledge does not hurt and is very interesting!



JanetGeorge said:



			I appreciate ALL responses.  If some of it is at a more basic level, then that's good too - as a lot of people read this forum WITHOUT posting questions - they just look for answers.
		
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This is so true!


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## madmare22 (11 May 2011)

sorry to hijack the thread but i feel as if i ought to defend myself a little. this forum is very helpful and it is true that many people dont question, just merely read for advice. 

didnt i say that your post is very helpful jamana but also pointed out that she had the experience in stallion handling and was looking for a different angle so to speak. i never suggested that you were condecending at all and i apologise if it came across that way.

i am watching with interest as i had the same problem with a stallion last year, i sent him to someone with more knowledge than me, problem solved, unfortunately i didnt see the methods used i just know he covers now with no problem.

i dont understand the comment i am surprised at your stance as i dont really have a stance.

it is getting to the point where i dont post very often as when i ask for advice i dont get it and if i post anything it gets shot down in flames. i have noticed this happening to other users also.


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## RuthnMeg (11 May 2011)

Poor boy, does sound like he is too gentle!! I am sure, turned out with mare he will get the picture, just doesn't want you to look!! lol
Good luck.

ps, it is lovely to hear everyones experiences and advice, whether or not it is entirely appropriate to the question. We do learn something new every day.


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## vicijp (12 May 2011)

I have the opposite problem with my (young) stallion - can't get him down!
When he's done he looks at everyone with a smirk on his face as if to say, 'Could do with a fag'.
Always handle him in a chifney, near enough have to break his jaw to get him off.


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## JanetGeorge (12 May 2011)

vicijp said:



			I have the opposite problem with my (young) stallion - can't get him down!
When he's done he looks at everyone with a smirk on his face as if to say, 'Could do with a fag'.
Always handle him in a chifney, near enough have to break his jaw to get him off.
		
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I'm expecting THAT problem with the other colt I have to start!  Mind you, he's had the chance to 'practice' as last year (as a 2 yo) he escaped from his field and jumped IN with a very in-season mare who'd been AI'd that day and had been kept in for Oxytocin jabs.  We found him in with her next morning!

She didn't get in foal to either effort!


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## amy_b (12 May 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			One I heard of on an American list - the stallion owner didn't know the mares' tails should be bandaged - although she'd seen it done she didn't know why!  She does now - her stallion got caught on some mare tail hair and sliced the most delicate part of his anatomy along its whole length.  It couldn't be healed!
		
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 to prove your point - i never knew why!!!! ( i always presumed it was to save mess!!  -how embarrassing!!)


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## misst (12 May 2011)

amy_b said:



 to prove your point - i never knew why!!!! ( i always presumed it was to save mess!!  -how embarrassing!!)
		
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Not only did I not know why, I did not even know the mares tail should be bandaged In my defence I have never bred anything and have no intention of doing so. 
I do love this forum though because I learn so much and it is so interesting - so thank you to everyone who tolerates numpties like me


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## Alexart (12 May 2011)

I've had this problem once with a youngster who was basically afraid of getting the crap kicked out of him, which I'd rather have to be honest than one who comes out like a 5 legged tornado!! 
We started out just by building his confidence by chatting to the mares head first, have very experienced agile handlers though and long lines on both horses - handlers safety first!!!  Really let the mare wind him up, as soon as he jumps up - even if it is at her shoulder give the command 'up,up' or whatever you use and praise like mad - try not to laugh even when he gets the wrong end of the mare!!!  If it takes a while,ie. more than 20mins, even to get this first jump then end on a positive note and repeat again later in the afternoon, over doing it makes them switch off and frustrates the mare too and makes her more likely to kick, it's better to try again later after he has had time to think about it!!
Let him do this a few times each time get the mare angled that bit more so her butt is facing him, praise like mad each time he gets up, this builds their confidence that the mare is not going to kick - you need a real old slapper that will stand for anything though! - after a few tries they do get the idea!  
The chat up is the bit that gets them going and is very important, more often than not is missed out nowadays, often the mare will swing round and drop her butt at him and help you out a good bit after a few moments of squealing and snorting!

Reversing a mare up to him isn't a good idea with a horse that lacks confidence, an older stally will know what it means but not a youngster, as that is what a horse would do before a double barrel so not very appealing!!!  
He may be a little more rough that you want the first few goes as he gets riled up but that can easily be sorted once he has got the whole jumping up bit - do not reprimand him for a nip at the early stages as it will only confuse him and make him reluctant to jump.  I'd also leave off the bit, if he behaves in a headcollar then just use that and have a specific location that you use only for covering instead of a specific harsh bit, they do learn very quickly the difference between ridden work and covering, I've always just used a headcollar on all my boys, with no problems with them getting excited whenever they see a headcollar!!
I would not really want to turn him out with a mare until he has got the manners and confidence in hand - it can go either way - some get the idea straight away and all is well, others get very frustrated and still won't mount but take out their frustration on the mare and can get quite nasty with them and take chunks out and chase them, so do be very careful, I'd do the inhand first then once you are happy then turn out with a no nonsense mare!
I hope this does not come across as patronising - I am just sharing my experiences with this particular situation, I know the OP is experienced but everyone has to ask questions at some point, no-one knows everything - how else do we learn if we don't ask!!!!
Anyway good luck and stay safe, let us know how you get on!


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## MillionDollar (12 May 2011)

Interesting re. bandaging the mares' tail, never knew that.................so who applies it in the wild


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## Sportznight (12 May 2011)

MillionDollar said:



			Interesting re. bandaging the mares' tail, never knew that.................so who applies it in the wild  

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You can say the same for covering boots, neck guards, chiffney's, stallion chains, rugs, shoes, saddles....  And for who helps during a difficult foaling, or if a horse is injured....


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## tristar (12 May 2011)

my latest stallion was a total lunatic and would have killed to get to the mare, he had kicked people as a very  young horse and as the mare was a maiden, i got a stallion man from a top tb stud to do the business end while i held the mare, and the stallion man certainly taught him to wait when he would rear but when he was FULLY ready to cover, if you know what i mean!, he put the horse on the mare and popped the weapon in the mare really neatly, which helped a lot,  as i find they will jump on side ways and allsorts left to their own devices, he was  hot hot hot, so i changed his diet and bingo much more laid back, which is good as ride him, so i wondered if you changed his diet to zip him up a bit it might help the other way and make him hotter, i think they call it raising his libido, he's very nearly there though, perhaps he's shy! 

i also used a stallion chain with his ordinairy snaffle and he knew you had got him and he could release the pressure by not leaping around, i also used covering boots on the mare as it  was very dodgy with two not easy ones to put together. 
maybe putting him next to a mare's box will kickstart him, but i would always use a well padded board and never anything metal to try over incase they kick at it and break a bone, sadly i have known this happen.

or get some in season mares pee in a bucket in his box

not telling you what to do i'm sure you are the best, but i just love this subject,
the whole breeding thing and when that foal is born what a miracle!


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## Rowreach (12 May 2011)

I'm finding the replies on this thread very interesting, so thank you to all those who have taken time to make long and informative posts 

I often think that when the more knowledgeable forum members post with a question they get fewer replies simply because people think they know so much already   I'm sure all of them admit that we learn something new with each different horse and each different situation, and we could all use some pointers and help on occasion 

It would be a shame to put new posters off just because they are not completely up to date with the forum dynamic and don't know that a particular poster is particularly knowledgeable.  I found the experienced stallion man's post very interesting btw


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## JanetGeorge (12 May 2011)

MillionDollar said:



			Interesting re. bandaging the mares' tail, never knew that.................so who applies it in the wild  

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As Sportznight said, none of these 'aids' are used in the wild - but in the wild, no-one actually cares if a mare or a stallion is hurt or killed.

Of course, the simple fact too is that there is a much more natural and continuous 'interaction' between mares and the herd stallion in the wild.  When a stallion is running with 30 - 40 mares, he will know which one is out, which one is coming in, and which one needs his attention for the next 48 hours!




			he was hot hot hot, so i changed his diet and bingo much more laid back, which is good as ride him, so i wondered if you changed his diet to zip him up a bit it might help the other way and make him hotter,
		
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I think you could shove 10 pounds of oats a day into Prince and he wouldn't get hotter - just fatter!  But as there are two other stallions I can use on the mares I would have LIKED to try him on, I don't have to push it hard - or risk upsetting his ridden training.

We used the 3 year old colt - another virgin - on the mare Prince failed with today.  He is the TOTAL opposite ' hot to trot' ALL the time.  He jumped her sideways - and hung over her looking stupid, then tried to kick her (but she booted him back - hard - which hurt even with kicking boots on!)  So he came in again - still VERY keen - and did the job amazingly proficiently!  (And was much calmer and quieter in his stable this evening than he normally is!)

I was relieved about that as I plan to use him on at least some of the Raj daughters - but none of them have been covered naturally before - always AI!

Fortunately I have two yards for teasing/covering - with a 4' high concrete block wall between them, rubber padded.  Makes the job safer and easier.


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## JanetGeorge (12 May 2011)

Alexart said:



			I would not really want to turn him out with a mare until he has got the manners and confidence in hand - it can go either way - some get the idea straight away and all is well, others get very frustrated and still won't mount but take out their frustration on the mare and can get quite nasty with them and take chunks out and chase them, so do be very careful, I'd do the inhand first then once you are happy then turn out with a no nonsense mare!
I hope this does not come across as patronising - I am just sharing my experiences with this particular situation, I know the OP is experienced but everyone has to ask questions at some point, no-one knows everything - how else do we learn if we don't ask!!!!
Anyway good luck and stay safe, let us know how you get on!

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That's very helpful!  I was thinking of turning him out with a mare who wouldn't kick no matter what - and I don't THINK Prince would get nasty - he's as sweet as they come and I THINK his good manners are the problem.  He KNOWS when he's 'led' he must pay attention to the person leading and be good.  The answer might be to use this mare and keep him on a VERY long line on the headcollar - so he doesn't think he's 'under control'.

There's no rush - it wouldn't matter too much if he didn't get the old girl in foal this year - she's 20 anyway and almost ready to go onto retirement duties (babysitting the young fillies.)  And I can use his sire on anything I could use him on (the attraction in using him on a few mares is he's much smaller than his sire - and bay!)


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## tristar (12 May 2011)

oats are what i feed my stallion on now!, and he is much quieter it was the pelleted feed that hotted him, the vits i think.

as far as i'm concerned i would never ever turn out two strange horses together, and have witnessed on several occassions the mare running, stallion chasing, not a pretty sight, unless its a stallion raised in a herd when they cover from puberty and run with the mares, but we are talking about competition types, in general the mare will run and refuse to stand the stallion gets annoyed .


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## Jamana (13 May 2011)

If you are going to turn out the stallion with a mare for the first time a good idea is to cover her in hand first then turn both loose,and it goes without saying make sure your fencing is sound,if as you say Janet the stallion was keen and did try to mount her when you took him into her shoulder then just keep trying he will get the hang of it all you need to do is position both yourself and him you will find after a few goes the penny will drop,I'm sure you also know not to grab the penis but just guide him in and place your hand at the penis base so you can feel the throb when he ejaculates,plenty of stallion owners don't do this but plenty also end up with barren mares as some stallions wont 'shoot' on the first cover.


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## tristar (13 May 2011)

jamana, do you find that the stallion flags his tail in a successful covering? i always found it helpful to wait until the stallion has a complete erection before appraoching the mare, in hand with him, as this is needed so he can penetrate the mare successfully first time,  and avoid dissapointing him and the general disturbance to the process, like the mare moving around,  .

and do you also think that the mare is more settled if approached from the side as she can see the stallion as he comes towards her, after all its normally a strange horse, aside from the fact its safer?


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## Jamana (13 May 2011)

No I do not accept a 'flagging'tail as a sure sign of ejaculation,imo always put your hand to feel him shoot that way you have no doubt whatsoever.One stallion I looked after was always slow to cover he would get on penetrate the mare then get back off loose his erection then firm up again,we would go through this several times before he ejaculated he did as you call it flag his tail but I knew 100% he (up until I felt the throb) had not ejaculated.
And yes only a fool would take any stallion right up behind a mare always make him wait until he is ready(hard) then take him in from the side sort of position both him and you next to the mare about level with her girth then up he goes,the whole job with a good stallion is only a matter of minutes,the ones like the stallion I mentioned above could take up to over an hour.


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## JanetGeorge (13 May 2011)

tristar said:



			jamana, do you find that the stallion flags his tail in a successful covering? i always found it helpful to wait until the stallion has a complete erection before appraoching the mare, in hand with him, as this is needed so he can penetrate the mare successfully first time,  and avoid dissapointing him and the general disturbance to the process, like the mare moving around,  .
		
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My old boy never flags when he ejaculates - he lets out a little squeal, sometimes he f*rts, and then drops off to sleep on the mare!  I keep expecting him to light up a fag!

And JUST occasionally, he gets over-excited and rushes to the mare - before he is 'ready'!  (You can't hold him when he does this - he's just too big and strong.)  He gets VERY embarrassed when he realises he's forgotten something - and I just lead him around a few times until he rectifies the situation!  He ONLY does it with bay mares - never with greys (and most of my own mares are grey - a bay is a novelty for him!)

I have one old mare I call my Black Widow Spider.  She ALWAYS kicks if he approaches her from behind - and she also kicks when he dismounts after a successful covering!  I take him in at right angles - he jumps across her and then wriggles round.  And when he dismounts, he jumps off sideways with a squeal!  She's never actually MANAGED to kick him - he's too smart for her!

They're all so different!  

The good news is that the vet scanned my dear old girl today and she's coming back in - so Prince will have another chance!  Based on all the advice, I'm not going to turn him out with her, but tease her for short periods and if he doesn't jump, take him away and try again a few hours later in the hope he will be keener on a return visit!


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## shirleyno2 (13 May 2011)

The tail bandage posts made me laugh, back in my days of live cover, my old stallion never covered a mare with a tail bandage on, he would slowly remove it with his teeth before mounting, he point blank refused a bandaged tail!! 

Janet, has he ever been kicked as a youngster? I have had great success with the vet giving a shot of valium 20 minutes before teasing him.

Otherwise let him watch a pro in action!


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## JanetGeorge (13 May 2011)

shirleyno2 said:



			Janet, has he ever been kicked as a youngster? I have had great success with the vet giving a shot of valium 20 minutes before teasing him.

Otherwise let him watch a pro in action!
		
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To the very best of my knowledge he has NEVER been kicked - certainly never been lame or marked.  I think he's just incredibly polite!

If I gave him Valium, he'd be asleep in 20 minutes - he's so laid back he's practically horizontal!

I'd let him watch his Dad - but Dad sometimes muffs it - would that be a bad example?


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## GinnieRedwings (13 May 2011)

LOL

Just read the whole thread and now ROFL   

I have absolutely nothing useful to say, but I am certainly enjoying the thread... Such a child


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## tristar (14 May 2011)

janet, i think what you are proposing to do with him amounts to a courtship and sounds a most sensible and intelligent approach, which gives time to assess how things are progressing  while under control at the same time avoiding accidents or in his case incidents that just might put him off, i don't know really

jamana, the stallion that was slow to cover, did you find that he was less fertile than say a more virile quick to cover stallion?

is there a difference in that jamana is talking about racehorses retired to stud and therefore not working but also less fit, and janet's stallion which is a young horse being ridden and therefore has more occupying his mind and therefore not so relaxed and having to switch his mind from one thing to another?


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## Jamana (14 May 2011)

No it makes no difference with regards to fertility and libido,the stallion who was slow to cover was a son of a Epsom Derby winner who himself was notoriously slow in the covering barn but like his son was very fertile.
Some stallions are rightly described as rampant I also had one in my care like this,he too was very fertile.TB stallions within the 'industry' are always fit as they need to be to cope with their large books,(in excess of 120 mares per season) they have a very strict work programme that starts in the latter part of Oct' ready to start covering mares in early Feb' at their peak they will cover 4/5 mares per day.Stallions who are kept in 'show' condition can when covering drop dead of a heart attack.Most TB stallions all have time to relax spending time out each day in their paddock,mind saying that each stallion is vastly different once they start covering mares,I know one I had his lad came to see his horse after he had finished racing he was shocked at his temperament change he told me when the horse was in training(racing)he was "like a little lamb you could put a baby on his back" once they start the new job they can then become rampant sex crazed beasts always looking for mares this stallion was one of those he could not cope with being outside in the stallion paddock he would spend all his time charging around calling to anything that moved but he totally relaxed in one of the barns and spent his turn out time in the barn.Some people say things like I know my horse I trust him well frankly they are either very naive or plain stupid as given an inch they will take a mile and most are ready to have a go anytime.


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## Sportznight (14 May 2011)

Just as an aside, we will not cover 5 a day!  4 at a push, generally 3, though I try to avoid evening covers and try to keep the boys to 2 a day.  That's with books of 120+.  If a stallion is fertile (industry standard is 60% conception rate, one of ours is at 85%), then it does make life easier, as there are less returns - though it does also count on the mares...


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## AMH (14 May 2011)

OP - is he stabled with other stallions?

I attended a lecture a while ago from an American lady, Dr Sue McDonnell of New Bolton Center, Pennsylvania, who was trained as a human psychologist and now specialises in equine herd behaviour, particularly stallion behaviour, transferring that to barned stallions. She has found that stallions fall into two distinct groups - she calls them 'hareem' stallions and 'sneak breeders'. 

The hareem stallions are 'alpha' and are the type to win themselves a group of mares in feral conditions which they fight to maintain. The 'sneak breeders' are batchelor stallions which will literally sneak up to mares and breed when the hareem stallion has his back turned. 

She has found that these stallions display these traits even in the breeding shed. Despite there being no other stallions around, the sneak breeders tend to be the ones which take the time. She has found that stabling sneak breeders with hareem stallions can have a profound effect, even reducing their fertility. 

If she is asked to work with a sub-fertile or reluctant stallion which displays sneak breeding traits, she sometimes suggests that the stallion is stabled away from the other stallions to try to remove the stress of the proximity of a hareem stallion. She has found this to be successful in some cases. 

This is her lab's website, and there's an 'ask a question' facility, might be useful...

http://research.vet.upenn.edu/Default.aspx?alias=research.vet.upenn.edu/havemeyerequinebehavior


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## tristar (14 May 2011)

jamana, i have that last sentence written across my heart, in a way i do trust my stallion within OUR relationship  although he so hot, but there is never a moment i forget he is a stallion


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## Rollin (14 May 2011)

Janet, you have forgotten more than I have ever learned.

However, when last year we tried to cover our CB mare Rosemary, with Arthur the love of his and her life, they arrived together and she in foal to him...we almost gave up.

I had professional help and eventually he did the job.  One covering and success.

I speak frequently to Barbara Martindale, Stainmore CB's who has been a CB breeder for more than 20 years.  She had a stallion who was so slow her husband teased her and told her was 'gay'.  He proved to be a very successful sire.

Can't give you any tips but Barbara might.


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## shirleyno2 (14 May 2011)

Janet the valium will only take away the anxiety, it definetely won't send him to sleep!!


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## JanetGeorge (14 May 2011)

AMH said:



			OP - is he stabled with other stallions?
		
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He's next to a 6 year old who WAS a stallion (never used) until 4 weeks ago!

I used him this morning to tease 3 fillies (none of them FOR him as they were all by Raj - and one was actually his full sister - seemed a bit incestuous to me but not to him!)  He was MUCH keener than he has been in the past and actually did a half-rear at the trying bar (he NEVER rears when led - so I figured that was a good sign!) 

The 3 fillies were not in yet - and told him so - but he remained keen (only teased each for a couple of minutes as they had foals at foot and definitely weren't interested.)

The old girl I have lined up for him should be ready bu Monday so I'll use him to tease the three fillies again briefly tomorrow - as well as the old girl - and HOPEFULLY that will gee him up enough that by the time the old girl is ready, he will be too!




			I speak frequently to Barbara Martindale, Stainmore CB's who has been a CB breeder for more than 20 years. She had a stallion who was so slow her husband teased her and told her was 'gay'. He proved to be a very successful sire.
		
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Don't worry - I've already accused his rider (who is gay) of 'turning him'!


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## Sportznight (14 May 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			Don't worry - I've already accused his rider (who is gay) of 'turning him'!

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Just choked on a glass of wine


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## JanetGeorge (14 May 2011)

Sportznight said:



			Just choked on a glass of wine 

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Sorry!  Are all of us sitting in front of our computers - waiting for the next foal check - with a nice glass of vino??  Mine is a Hardy's red - and very nice it is too!


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## Sportznight (14 May 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			Sorry!  Are all of us sitting in front of our computers - waiting for the next foal check - with a nice glass of vino??  Mine is a Hardy's red - and very nice it is too!
		
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  We had our last foals on Thursday (1 here, 1 in France).  So I am simply relaxing with a nice glass of Oxford Landing Red


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## Allover (14 May 2011)

Thoroughly enjoyed this thread, thanks all 

A quick question Jamana, what is the stallions work regime? I had a friend who worked on a TB stud and i seem to remember that they were hand walked for miles everyday, is this what you (or anyone else on TB studs) do?

Sorry for hijacking!!


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## JanetGeorge (14 May 2011)

Sportznight said:



  We had our last foals on Thursday (1 here, 1 in France).  So I am simply relaxing with a nice glass of Oxford Landing Red 

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I approve your choice!  I like Oxford Landing (but it hasn't been on special offer at Tesco's lately - and OH does the supermarket trip!)  They grow very good red grapes along the Murray!


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## Jamana (14 May 2011)

yes they are walked in tack(roller and side reins) for a couple of miles a day and they all get lunged its old fashioned but works in Feb they are rock hard and ready to roll,all get dressed over each day and plenty of strapping after all they are 'the shop window' of any stud.


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## Sportznight (14 May 2011)

Allover said:



			Thoroughly enjoyed this thread, thanks all 

A quick question Jamana, what is the stallions work regime? I had a friend who worked on a TB stud and i seem to remember that they were hand walked for miles everyday, is this what you (or anyone else on TB studs) do?

Sorry for hijacking!!
		
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We lunge, hand walk and use the walker (we have a fabulous 12 horse walker) for ours.  

Some studs will ride them - I have some wonderful photos of Capote, Silver Charm, War Chant, Summer Squall, Rahy (such a naughty, cheeky little horse), Point Given (a HUGE horse!), all being ridden out on the gallops at Three Chimneys in KY.  Dynaformer and Seattle Slew weren't in ridden work by the time I met them, they were walked for miles 

ETA, those that Shuttle are exercised slightly less intensely.  Covering dual hemisphere is hard work and it generally keeps them in good enough shape, along with correct nutrition.  Though they do tend to lose a bit of condition flying long distance, hence the need to beef them up a bit prior to flying.



JanetGeorge said:



			I approve your choice!  I like Oxford Landing (but it hasn't been on special offer at Tesco's lately - and OH does the supermarket trip!)  They grow very good red grapes along the Murray!
		
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Oxford Landing Red is possibly my favourite wine!  Unusually it was on offer in the local shop this morning when I went to get the Racing Post, so I bought 3 bottles


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## AMH (14 May 2011)

Sportznight, isn't Three Chimneys the most amazing place? I understand they are turned out at night in the hot weather too. I went to an open day - loads of people milling about and most of the stallions asleep in their boxes. Rahy was lying down! 

If I win Euromillions, I'm building a facility like that!


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## Sportznight (14 May 2011)

Three Chineys is fabulous, as are all the big farms in KY   I miss it, but not the humidity in the summer or the ice storms in winter...  

Ours live out at night during the summer...


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