# 80% of Horses Have Kissing Spine...



## marieshorses (29 August 2017)

Hello Community:

I recently heard that over 80% of horses have at least one vertebrae that is close and/or kissing the other.  

I've also heard there is no such thing as a completely healthy back and spine.  

My question is how do you feel about the data gathered from radiography of neck and spine?  What type of horses are usually x-ray'd? 

Any other information you can share about cervical spine and back findings would be appreciated, especially as it relates to dressage horses.    

Thanks!
Marie


----------



## Chinchilla (29 August 2017)

Following :O


----------



## Auslander (29 August 2017)

Source?

Bit of a ridiculous statement, when the majority of horses don't have routine back xrays. Even if 80% of horses that are xrayed have kissing spines, that is presumably because they were xrayed to investigate problems that suggested they may have kissing spines


----------



## cobgoblin (29 August 2017)

I would suspect that way over 80% of horses never have a spine X-ray in their life.


----------



## tristar (29 August 2017)

i was told this by a top racehorse trainer, he was was told this by his vet, 80 per cent. at POST MORTEM i think they said.


what we we need to  know is, unless this is a thing that happens naturally, what is causing this to happen and how to avoid it if possible.

this is why it is so important to consider the horses back during training and how it uses itself


----------



## TGM (29 August 2017)

It is quite common for spine x-rays to be requested when purchasing valuable competition horses, so it would be quite interesting to see the stats from this group as they are done as a routine precaution rather than because the horse is showing symptoms.


----------



## DiNozzo (29 August 2017)

And also how many of that 80% are symptomatic.?


----------



## blitznbobs (29 August 2017)

I was told by a back vet that most horses he X-rays for any reason have kissing spines but he thinks that kissing spines is totally over operated on and that most of the issues the horses have is nothing to do with the 'kissing spine' at all... I'm inclined to believe it's a 'fashionable ' diagnosis and that there are many horses who are operated on that do not benefit from such surgery ... but I am willing to see evidence to the contrary!


----------



## cobgoblin (29 August 2017)

tristar said:



			i was told this by a top racehorse trainer, he was was told this by his vet, 80 per cent. at POST MORTEM i think they said.


what we we need to  know is, unless this is a thing that happens naturally, what is causing this to happen and how to avoid it if possible.

this is why it is so important to consider the horses back during training and how it uses itself
		
Click to expand...


Was this 80% of racehorses?  Most horses are not post-mortemed.


----------



## Goldenstar (29 August 2017)

Did they X-ray a random selection of horses in work and find that 80% of them had changes or crowding or did they find changes/crowding in 80 % of horses where a work up led to the back being  X rayed .
You really need to know before you can make any comment .

On race horses I would not be all surprised if the KS rate was much higher in horses that race .
Also in people can you imagine if you took a group of reasonably fit fifty somethings and worked them up like a horse gets you would find all sorts of orthopaedic changes and chronic soft tissue damage .


----------



## ester (29 August 2017)

marieshorses said:



			Hello Community:


My question is how do you feel about the data gathered from radiography of neck and spine?  What type of horses are usually x-ray'd? 


Thanks!
Marie
		
Click to expand...

That it shouldn't be used in isolation. 

What type of horse- one that has problems/symptoms.

I think those answers are rather obvious and applicable to most things though!


----------



## Wheels (29 August 2017)

I remember reading something about these types of studies - they usually are undertaken on horses that have ended up at the abattoir, presumably a lot of ex racers and/or horses with behavioral problems so the 80% occurrence in that particular scenario does not surprise me really.

I would be astonished if 80% of all horses have KS


----------



## soloequestrian (29 August 2017)

I haven't checked this, it's from memory, but I think there are similar stats about humans - huge numbers of people are wandering about with slipped discs and arthritic changes that can be visualised but don't actually cause symptoms.  That's a really interesting point about over-diagnosis and operations on kissing spines, I wonder how much rehab work that takes place after the surgery might actually alleviate problems without any surgery.  I haven't been involved in any cases so have no clue what the process involves!


----------



## hottoddy (29 August 2017)

soloequestrian said:



			That's a really interesting point about over-diagnosis and operations on kissing spines, I wonder how much rehab work that takes place after the surgery might actually alleviate problems without any surgery.  I haven't been involved in any cases so have no clue what the process involves!
		
Click to expand...

Liverpool University are conducting a study on this, they are giving owners a prescribed rehab program prior to operating to see if it makes a difference on its own before they perform any surgery


----------



## Slightlyconfused (29 August 2017)

blitznbobs said:



			I was told by a back vet that most horses he X-rays for any reason have kissing spines but he thinks that kissing spines is totally over operated on and that most of the issues the horses have is nothing to do with the 'kissing spine' at all... I'm inclined to believe it's a 'fashionable ' diagnosis and that there are many horses who are operated on that do not benefit from such surgery ... but I am willing to see evidence to the contrary!
		
Click to expand...

I sort of agree with this.

Our tb went lame rh only noticed under saddle. Went in for work up and vet sound sacro pain and then on x-ray kissing spines but the looks of it it had been there a long time. We had no problems ridden from this horse apart from an episode of rearing due to a badly fitting saddle. So it was the sacro pain that led to the ks being found and I'm pretty sure that if he didn't go lame we wouldn't have found out about the ks


----------



## Regandal (29 August 2017)

I suspect it's the same scenario as the 'navicular changes' found in lots of horses at pm.  Most of the horses had no symptoms.


----------



## cobgoblin (29 August 2017)

It would be interesting to know the incidence in a wild unridden population such as mustangs.


----------



## daffy44 (29 August 2017)

I struggle to believe that 80% of all horses have KS, I do also think its a fashionable diagnosis, but thats not to say that more horses have it, than are diagnosed with it.

Personally, I have had spinal xrays done on two dressage horses as part of a pre purchase exam.  One was a just backed 5yr old, she is now a fit happy (unmedicated) 15yr old horse competing at GP, her back has never given me a seconds concern.  The other one was a just backed 4yr old, she is now 6, and has also, so far, given me no cause for concern.  Both had totally healthy clear xrays, that were viewed by two different vet practises.

ETA: Neither horse has ever worn a pessoa!


----------



## ester (29 August 2017)

hottoddy said:



			Liverpool University are conducting a study on this, they are giving owners a prescribed rehab program prior to operating to see if it makes a difference on its own before they perform any surgery
		
Click to expand...

Thinking a bit cross thread here but does it include a pessoa? 

I think over diagnosis and over operating are likely two separate issues. There may well be horses that can be made more comfortable without surgery (and anecdotally there certainly is) but would still be diagnosed as KS with symptoms at that point.


----------



## HashRouge (29 August 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			Was this 80% of racehorses?  Most horses are not post-mortemed.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I was wondering that. Because if it is racehorses it wouldn't surprise me, as backing a horse at 18 months is surely exactly the sort of thing that would result in kissing spines.


----------



## rachk89 (29 August 2017)

Once my horse was diagnosed with KS that, my saddler said they (as in her and other saddle makers) think there are more horses out there with KS than people are aware of. But she never said it was that high. I would agree with her statement though as I've seen a few horses that after my horses diagnosis I've thought I wonder if you have the same problem. 

Mine wasnt operated on either. The vets I have prefer not to if they can get away with it and he's managed to have the drug only thank god. He may need a top up next year but we'll wait and see.


----------



## Evie91 (29 August 2017)

Recently speaking to person whose horse recently being diagnosed with KS. She told me her Vet stated that research is suggestions KS is a secondary condition; as I understood it caused by horse compensating for problem elsewhere, so rather than operate more investigations to find the primary problem.


----------



## hottoddy (29 August 2017)

ester said:



			Thinking a bit cross thread here but does it include a pessoa? QUOTE]

No!  Long reining and raised poles are the main elements
		
Click to expand...


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

Auslander said:



			Source?

Bit of a ridiculous statement, when the majority of horses don't have routine back xrays. Even if 80% of horses that are xrayed have kissing spines, that is presumably because they were xrayed to investigate problems that suggested they may have kissing spines
		
Click to expand...

Similar to medicine in humans, pathology is usually generated collectively through mostly "sick" or degenerating health.  I'm curious in equine science how many of the back x-ray's are compiled through age groups--like the younger horse-- versus post mortem.  Since technology is more portable, thus making x-ray's cheaper, are there any large animal veterinary programs that have collected data on younger horses?  Children go through scoliosis examinations at very young ages...


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

Evie91 said:



			Recently speaking to person whose horse recently being diagnosed with KS. She told me her Vet stated that research is suggestions KS is a secondary condition; as I understood it caused by horse compensating for problem elsewhere, so rather than operate more investigations to find the primary problem.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting and what's fascinating is the viral aspect as well.  I wonder if the stifle or hocks play a role in compressing the vertebrae....


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

rachk89 said:



			Once my horse was diagnosed with KS that, my saddler said they (as in her and other saddle makers) think there are more horses out there with KS than people are aware of. But she never said it was that high. I would agree with her statement though as I've seen a few horses that after my horses diagnosis I've thought I wonder if you have the same problem. 

Mine wasnt operated on either. The vets I have prefer not to if they can get away with it and he's managed to have the drug only thank god. He may need a top up next year but we'll wait and see.
		
Click to expand...

How many vertebrae are "kissing" on your horse?  I assume the diagnosis was done through x-rays?


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

ester said:



			That it shouldn't be used in isolation. 

What type of horse- one that has problems/symptoms.

I think those answers are rather obvious and applicable to most things though!
		
Click to expand...

Similar to medicine in humans, pathology is usually generated collectively through mostly "sick" or degenerating health.  I'm curious in equine science how many of the back x-ray's are compiled through age groups--like the younger horse-- versus post mortem.  Since technology is more portable, thus making x-ray's cheaper, are there any large animal veterinary programs that have collected data on younger horses?  Children go through scoliosis examinations at very young ages...


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

Wheels said:



			I remember reading something about these types of studies - they usually are undertaken on horses that have ended up at the abattoir, presumably a lot of ex racers and/or horses with behavioral problems so the 80% occurrence in that particular scenario does not surprise me really.

I would be astonished if 80% of all horses have KS
		
Click to expand...

What's interesting about this area of equine science is the actual definition of kissing spine as it relates to each horse individually.  I would think the entire sport would benefit substantially if we discussed these compressed vertebrae from foal to younger horse by a large pool of x-ray's.


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

soloequestrian said:



			I haven't checked this, it's from memory, but I think there are similar stats about humans - huge numbers of people are wandering about with slipped discs and arthritic changes that can be visualised but don't actually cause symptoms.  That's a really interesting point about over-diagnosis and operations on kissing spines, I wonder how much rehab work that takes place after the surgery might actually alleviate problems without any surgery.  I haven't been involved in any cases so have no clue what the process involves!
		
Click to expand...

Children are examined at very young ages for scoliosis.  We should have the same in foal/younger horses to understand the development of the back, etc...


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

Slightlyconfused said:



			I sort of agree with this.

Our tb went lame rh only noticed under saddle. Went in for work up and vet sound sacro pain and then on x-ray kissing spines but the looks of it it had been there a long time. We had no problems ridden from this horse apart from an episode of rearing due to a badly fitting saddle. So it was the sacro pain that led to the ks being found and I'm pretty sure that if he didn't go lame we wouldn't have found out about the ks
		
Click to expand...

Interesting... So was the lameness determined to be caused by the compressed vertebrae?  Did you x-ray?  If yes, how many of the vertebrae were touching?


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			It would be interesting to know the incidence in a wild unridden population such as mustangs.
		
Click to expand...

100% agreed!  Also, collecting data on foals/younger horse--especially within bloodlines, etc.


----------



## blitznbobs (4 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			Children are examined at very young ages for scoliosis.  We should have the same in foal/younger horses to understand the development of the back, etc...
		
Click to expand...

Most scoliosis develops in puberty so checking at young age is relatively pointless... interested to know however who you think does this at a young age?


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

daffy44 said:



			I struggle to believe that 80% of all horses have KS, I do also think its a fashionable diagnosis, but thats not to say that more horses have it, than are diagnosed with it.

Personally, I have had spinal xrays done on two dressage horses as part of a pre purchase exam.  One was a just backed 5yr old, she is now a fit happy (unmedicated) 15yr old horse competing at GP, her back has never given me a seconds concern.  The other one was a just backed 4yr old, she is now 6, and has also, so far, given me no cause for concern.  Both had totally healthy clear xrays, that were viewed by two different vet practises.

ETA: Neither horse has ever worn a pessoa!
		
Click to expand...

Was the full cervical and back done?  Were there any vertebrae that showed any form of degeneration?  Have you done any x-rays on the older horse to see if anything has changed?  The veterinarians I've consulted with have said it's very common to see compressed vertebrae in equine athletes (even dressage).  What are your thoughts on that?


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

TGM said:



			It is quite common for spine x-rays to be requested when purchasing valuable competition horses, so it would be quite interesting to see the stats from this group as they are done as a routine precaution rather than because the horse is showing symptoms.
		
Click to expand...

I would like to propose we try and find such a study done on young competition horses--even foals through younger horse classes.


----------



## ester (4 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			Similar to medicine in humans, pathology is usually generated collectively through mostly "sick" or degenerating health.  I'm curious in equine science how many of the back x-ray's are compiled through age groups--like the younger horse-- versus post mortem.  Since technology is more portable, thus making x-ray's cheaper, are there any large animal veterinary programs that have collected data on younger horses?  Children go through scoliosis examinations at very young ages...
		
Click to expand...

In which case I suggest you stop asking for 'opinions' including those from vets and start with a pubmed search


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

blitznbobs said:



			Most scoliosis develops in puberty so checking at young age is relatively pointless... interested to know however who you think does this at a young age?
		
Click to expand...

We need to pool data of the equine back through foals to younger horses and continue to x-ray's those same equines yearly to see if there are any changes.  Since radiography can be subjective, I feel that the younger horse will provide us with preventative measures in understanding horses in sport.


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

ester said:



			In which case I suggest you stop asking for 'opinions' including those from vets and start with a pubmed search 

Click to expand...


Well, I thought coming to a social group would form a hypothesis before diving into the data.  However, I cannot find radiography from a preventative standpoint.  Can you direct me to any studies?


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

The origin of scoliosis cannot really be determined although there is a familial presence.  From what I understand, the familial heredity could be viral in origin.   It would be interesting to see if viral components in equines cause spinal degeneration.


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

blitznbobs said:



			Most scoliosis develops in puberty so checking at young age is relatively pointless... interested to know however who you think does this at a young age?
		
Click to expand...

From what I understand, the familial heredity of scoliosis could be viral in origin.   It would be interesting to see viral components in equines cause spinal degeneration


----------



## ycbm (4 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			Well, I thought coming to a social group would form a hypothesis before diving into the data.
		
Click to expand...

How can we hypothesize about why 80% of horses have kissing spine without any evidence that 80% of horses, have kissing spine?


----------



## ycbm (4 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			What's interesting about this area of equine science is the actual definition of kissing spine as it relates to each horse individually.  I would think the entire sport would benefit substantially if we discussed these compressed vertebrae from foal to younger horse by a large pool of x-ray's.
		
Click to expand...

Why do you keep calling kissing spines 'compressed vertebrae'? I've never seen this description, myself.   Kissing spines is usually, I think, clashing of the dorsal spinal processes. This can, in time, lead to damage to the actual body of the vertebra, but it doesn't start there afaik?  Which is why it can be resolved in many cases without surgery, that there is no intrinsic conformation fault. Unlike my horse, who was born with very tightly packed vertebrae.

The surgeon who operated on mine said he generally operates at three ages. 3-4, these horses are born with it. 7-8, these horses are either stoic animals who were born with it and reach a point where they can no longer tolerate it, or it has been caused by training incorrectly.  12, these are horses where work has taken its toll.


----------



## rachk89 (4 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			How many vertebrae are "kissing" on your horse?  I assume the diagnosis was done through x-rays?
		
Click to expand...

Two. The diagnosis was done through xray too. Although the first vet didn't think it was kissing spine as they weren't touching in the xray with the portable machine, but once the consultant saw those he said it was and better xrays were taken to confirm he was right.


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

ycbm said:



			Why do you keep calling kissing spines 'compressed vertebrae'? I've never seen this description, myself.   Kissing spines is usually, I think, clashing of the dorsal spinal processes. This can, in time, lead to damage to the actual body of the vertebra, but it doesn't start there afaik?  Which is why it can be resolved in many cases without surgery, that there is no intrinsic conformation fault. Unlike my horse, who was born with very tightly packed vertebrae.

The surgeon who operated on mine said he generally operates at three ages. 3-4, these horses are born with it. 7-8, these horses are either stoic animals who were born with it and reach a point where they can no longer tolerate it, or it has been caused by training incorrectly.  12, these are horses where work has taken its toll.
		
Click to expand...

I use the term 'compressed vertebrae' because of the training implications that could essentially cause the compression.  I'm trying my best to compile data--mostly from human studies--involving younger athletes and the spine.  What I'd like to know is if there are any good studies anyone here could send on young equines that are x-ray'd from a preventative/pre-purchase examination and where to find that data.  

We have numerous studies available like this one to understand vertebrae compression due to training vulnerabilities in young athletes: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445254/


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

rachk89 said:



			Two. The diagnosis was done through xray too. Although the first vet didn't think it was kissing spine as they weren't touching in the xray with the portable machine, but once the consultant saw those he said it was and better xrays were taken to confirm he was right.
		
Click to expand...


How old was your horse when x-ray'd/diagnosed?


----------



## Slightlyconfused (4 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			Interesting... So was the lameness determined to be caused by the compressed vertebrae?  Did you x-ray?  If yes, how many of the vertebrae were touching?
		
Click to expand...

Yes we did x-ray and found, I think it was two years ago, four/five touching/fused but until the rh lameness never had a worry out of him.
He reacted a bit over his back but he always had physio very six months but bucked and kicked out when over the sacro so that was the more painful area.

We injected both areas and for six weeks he was sound then it wore off. I honestly think it was the sacro causing 90% of his pain and all his lameness. He was an exracer so from a young age he had more pressure put on that area when in starting stalls. He did 81 races from 2 till 8 so he did well. 

My warmblood had five processes completely fused under saddle and a further four touching at age 13. She had been little backed at 7 and then had a blank few hers were I don't know her history till we got her at 10 and she never was able to cope with ridden work. No other lameness at all until she was pts last year with stifle arthritis aged 16.


----------



## rachk89 (4 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			How old was your horse when x-ray'd/diagnosed?
		
Click to expand...

8 for both.


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

ycbm said:



			How can we hypothesize about why 80% of horses have kissing spine without any evidence that 80% of horses, have kissing spine?
		
Click to expand...

My initial query included the following: "My question is how do you feel about the data gathered from radiography of neck and spine? What type of horses are usually x-ray'd?"

I'm basically trying to find studies on younger/healthier horses and if there are any "perfect" spines in equines or what is considered healthy, especially when it comes to sport horses.


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

Slightlyconfused said:



			Yes we did x-ray and found, I think it was two years ago, four/five touching/fused but until the rh lameness never had a worry out of him.
He reacted a bit over his back but he always had physio very six months but bucked and kicked out when over the sacro so that was the more painful area.

We injected both areas and for six weeks he was sound then it wore off. I honestly think it was the sacro causing 90% of his pain and all his lameness. He was an exracer so from a young age he had more pressure put on that area when in starting stalls. He did 81 races from 2 till 8 so he did well. 

My warmblood had five processes completely fused under saddle and a further four touching at age 13. She had been little backed at 7 and then had a blank few hers were I don't know her history till we got her at 10 and she never was able to cope with ridden work. No other lameness at all until she was pts last year with stifle arthritis aged 16.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting--thank you for sharing.  Although my background is mostly in human studies, horses are my greatest pastime.  I get somewhat frustrated when hearing "trainers" focus on the lameness in limbs versus the potential culprit from spinal indifferences either "born with" or due to training methods.  In human research, back issues are now being investigated from a viral origin.


----------



## ester (4 September 2017)

What I'd like to know is if there are any good studies anyone here could send on young equines that are x-ray'd from a preventative/pre-purchase examination and where to find that data.
		
Click to expand...

It is unlikely that anyone on here has conducted any meaningful study! I mean there are a fair few scientists and doctorates hanging around but that is quite a niche request.

I would suggest you would be better looking as to whether anything has been complied on the continent where pre purchase xrays happen much more frequently in general.


----------



## rachk89 (4 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			Interesting--thank you for sharing.  Although my. background is mostly in human studies, horses are my greatest pastime.  I get somewhat frustrated when hearing "trainers" focus on the lameness in limbs versus the potential culprit from spinal indifferences either "born with" or due to training methods.  In human research, back issues are now being investigated from a viral origin.
		
Click to expand...

Not sure I've ever heard of viruses causing bone problems in the back for people. Where does this come from?


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

ester said:



			It is unlikely that anyone on here has conducted any meaningful study! I mean there are a fair few scientists and doctorates hanging around but that is quite a niche request.
		
Click to expand...


I understand and thank you for the feedback.  I've always felt the best field studies are generated in social conversations or observations--even without fundamental understanding of science.  Hearing the feedback from horse owners, their diagnosis from veterinarians, etc, is just as important and thank you all for sharing.  Equine nutrition, for example, is hugely important for many horse owners.  Often times I've heard of supplement budgets for gastro-health to micronutrients costing $150.00+ a month.  A full set of spinal x-ray's cost approximately $500.00 I believe.  Since we ride on the back of a horse, I find the nutrition is totally secondary to preventative medicine in equines.  Understanding the spine, I feel, is the most preventative measure you can take with equines (even if they're young and considered in good health).


----------



## Auslander (4 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			I use the term 'compressed vertebrae' because of the training implications that could essentially cause the compression.  I'm trying my best to compile data--mostly from human studies--involving younger athletes and the spine.  What I'd like to know is if there are any good studies anyone here could send on young equines that are x-ray'd from a preventative/pre-purchase examination and where to find that data.  

We have numerous studies available like this one to understand vertebrae compression due to training vulnerabilities in young athletes: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3445254/

Click to expand...

I think it's highly unlikely that you will get any studies from asking on a general horsey forum. Maybe try the Animal Health Trust - even if they haven't conducted the specific research you are interested in, they may be able to point you in the right direction


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

rachk89 said:



			Not sure I've ever heard of viruses causing bone problems in the back for people. Where does this come from?
		
Click to expand...

Really fascinating data that's emerging in our virome.   Here's a fascinating read largely based on a Danish study from a few years ago. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/may/07/antibiotics-cure-back-pain-patients


----------



## Slightlyconfused (4 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			Interesting--thank you for sharing.  Although my background is mostly in human studies, horses are my greatest pastime.  I get somewhat frustrated when hearing "trainers" focus on the lameness in limbs versus the potential culprit from spinal indifferences either "born with" or due to training methods.  In human research, back issues are now being investigated from a viral origin.
		
Click to expand...

In my view back problems for both humans and horses are cause by the following.

Genetics, it was going to happen anyway.

Confirmation  (is that the right spelling), how the rest of the human or horse is built puts pressure in other areas to cause the problem. My brother has had a few ankle fusions because of a Neurological disorder so his gait is now forever altered and it can and does affect his back as he is loading differently. 

And over working as a youngster when bones at still soft. I've known a few young athletes get early arthritis because of the pressure put under their body's while they are still developing. 

I believe my warmblood was born with it and I hurt and the tb probably was caused but starting young but for him it wasn't the cause of pain it was the sacro breaking down which in turn put pressure on the back. 

Sometimes I don't think just a kissing spines diagnosis is the only answer. In my view it is one small piece of a larger puzzle going on in the body


----------



## ester (4 September 2017)

is xraying a preventative measure? surely the definition of prevantative is that it prevents something, xraying merely observes. 

I have certainly never heard your theory on obtaining the best field data! I do feel your questions/what you are asking seems to have changed as posts have gone on but maybe that is just me.


----------



## rachk89 (4 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			Really fascinating data that's emerging in our virome.   Here's a fascinating read largely based on a Danish study from a few years ago. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/may/07/antibiotics-cure-back-pain-patients

Click to expand...

That's bacteria, not viruses. Viruses can't be cured with antibiotics, they don't work that way sadly. They mutate too much.


----------



## rachk89 (4 September 2017)

I'm in agreement with slightlyconfused. My horse was born with it, it's part of his conformation. For such a large, bulky horse he has quite a short back in comparison to others of his build and height. So the vertebrae have less room. Nothing could be done, but he didn't need surgery. Hopefully never will either, but you never know.

He has issues with his hind legs too, in particular his right hind, but I think this was caused from him having to hold himself oddly because of his sore back. Now that he can move without being in pain, he can do things he couldn't before, but his muscles aren't used to doing it so struggle. He's getting better with work, but we have a long way to go.


----------



## Chinchilla (4 September 2017)

rachk89 said:



			That's bacteria, not viruses. Viruses can't be cured with antibiotics, they don't work that way sadly. They mutate too much.
		
Click to expand...

I thought with viruses it was that they get inside cells so drugs cannot 'kill' them without also killing the cells ? That and of course they are clever but bacteria mutate too; just look at all the antibiotic resistance stuff.


----------



## mandyroberts (4 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			Hello Community:

I recently heard that over 80% of horses have at least one vertebrae that is close and/or kissing the other.  

I've also heard there is no such thing as a completely healthy back and spine.  

My question is how do you feel about the data gathered from radiography of neck and spine?  What type of horses are usually x-ray'd? 

Any other information you can share about cervical spine and back findings would be appreciated, especially as it relates to dressage horses.    

Thanks!
Marie
		
Click to expand...

I had a problem with a horse on trial and wanted his back x-rayed. My vet said that 50% of horses would show some abnormality on x-ray but in many cases it means nothing. I did have the x-ray which showed changes in the bone where my physio, saddler and vet all had concerns so I did return the horse (on my vets advice as I keep horses forever so if it wasn't the cause of the immediate problem something could develeop in the longer term).

I attended a lecture recently where the 80% of racehorses had kissing spines was stated, but with the comment that this was for a trial of horses who had to retire and be euthanized so you would expect a high percentage.

I have recently bought a 4 year old who was being sold with recent back, neck,leg x-rays, all clear. The seller said she always x-rayed horses as she had her reputation to preserve and couldn't afford to sell a horse with problems. She was selling on behalf of the owner but still insisted the owner had the x-rays and she x-rays all horses pre-purchase she is buying to sell. He is a potential dressage horse.

My vet also said if you scanned sound horses tendons you could always find problems if you look hard enough.....


----------



## ester (4 September 2017)

Exactly, I think part of the disparity in PPE xrays between us and the continent is insurance based, IIRC insurance doesnt usually do vets fees over there like it does over here? and over here for most to do so 'just to check' would be a quick way to an exclusion on an otherwise perfect and unaffected horse so it tends to only be people previously heartbroken by an affected horse.


----------



## Slightlyconfused (4 September 2017)

ester said:



			Exactly, I think part of the disparity in PPE xrays between us and the continent is insurance based, IIRC insurance doesnt usually do vets fees over there like it does over here? and over here for most to do so 'just to check' would be a quick way to an exclusion on an otherwise perfect and unaffected horse so it tends to only be people previously heartbroken by an affected horse.
		
Click to expand...

The thing is what would you do if you trail a horse, say eventer for an example, never had a days lameness completing at a decent height and scope for a bit more everything you ever wanted. 
Flys through a five stage vetting but then you decide for back xrays and vet finds ks. Nothing big just a few touching so is that an instant fail? No one would have known it was there and you could have had the rest of his life with no issues what so ever or when horse is mid teens he starts to slow down and not feel right and then it's found. 

Which is the right thing to do? X-ray and then walk away from a horse that is not symptomatic and a good chance of never being symptomatic or do what a lot of us do and just buy the horse in front of you knowing that anything can happen round the corner. 

Is the reason that horse is not symptomatic because of the level of fittness and conditioning it's been kept in and then if it's dropped in its new home will that then start the process of it being symptomatic? 

I hope some of that makes sense as I'm tired and my asthma has decided to come back out to play.


----------



## Wagtail (4 September 2017)

From personal experience, the youngest horsse here to be diagnosed was a 4 year old TB that was born into racing but had never raced. He was 'rescued' from a paddock by a livery of mine who paid £700 for him as a starved and dehydrated son of a Derby winner. Once we got him into good condition, it was clear that he would never allow himself to be ridden. He was found to have severe kissing spine. The second youngest was a 14.2hh cob 5 years old. Started off in a riding school. Bucked and was intermittently lame on 3 legs. Diagnosed with very mild KS (two vertebra rubbing). Third youngest was a 7 year old WB that was very nappy and occasionally reared. Then I had two of my own. One aged 11 and a retired steeple chaser. The only problems he exhibited was to run off with novice riders and he struggled with right canter to begin with. However, with strengthening work he became a nice little dressage horse. The final one was 8 when I got him and he was explosive after you saddled him and asked him to move forward. He was fine once you were on him unless you tightened the girth. But his issues got worse and he was found to have ten vertebra touching or fused together. I had him operated on but he was just as bad after being girthed after the op so he was retired. He was an ex racer too. My personal belief is that overloading the spine at too young an age is responsible for many cases of KS.


----------



## rachk89 (4 September 2017)

Diva&Rosie'sMum said:



			I thought with viruses it was that they get inside cells so drugs cannot 'kill' them without also killing the cells ? That and of course they are clever but bacteria mutate too; just look at all the antibiotic resistance stuff.
		
Click to expand...

Bacteria mutates but at a slow rate than viruses. Viruses mutate much faster, colds can't be cured because of this. The virus mutates too quickly and there's too many different strains of the stupid virus now. Bacteria probably wouldn't bother mutating if it wasn't for us trying to kill it with antibiotics. Antibiotics focus on a part of the bacteria to destroy, usually a protein that makes it up. You've got something to focus on with bacteria. You can try and do that with a virus and 24 hours later it's mutated itself so you're back at square one. Yes the bacteria can change and eventually fight off the antibiotics but that takes a lot of time.


----------



## Goldenstar (4 September 2017)

My experiance is 
1. five yo homebred struggled with various aspects of work walking down hill ridden shortening stride when jumping no bad behaviour this was before you could X-ray a back went with my guts PTS severe KS found on PM .
2 driving horse 18 high high mileage horse went off driving ,mild KS found on X-ray injected with steroid stopped driving went on to happily hunt for two seasons PTS for other reasons .
3 driving horse backed to ride at ten some crowding found injected worked to try to prevent further issues up hill horse with extreme conformation was 13 ( I think when it was found ) hunts jumps now 17 has regular Physio but is going fine .
4 .hunter 15 always bucked started doing some wierd jumps KS found on X-ray not a good temperament to have surgery and rehab PTS .
5 . Be advanced horse. 13 found severe KS six months after purchase at surgery bones where so diseased they where crumbling as they reshaped them did rehab horses completely changed shape he was magic went from permanently trying to get his tongue over the bit to being ridden with no noseband sadly I had to PTS and he had a large growth on his bowel .
It's does seem logical to me that many older well worked horses will have bony changes in the back.


----------



## ester (4 September 2017)

*sits on hands and sings to self  to prevent the bacteria/virus discussion itching.

Slightlyconfused I think I get you and I think you are agreeing. I am suggesting that in this country, the ramifications of xraying an otherwise fine horse can be significant/more significant than other countries.


----------



## Slightlyconfused (4 September 2017)

ester said:



			*sits on hands and sings to self  to prevent the bacteria/virus discussion itching.

Slightlyconfused I think I get you and I think you are agreeing. I am suggesting that in this country, the ramifications of xraying an otherwise fine horse can be significant/more significant than other countries.
		
Click to expand...

Yes I was agreeing. 
one of the reasons I didn't vet one of mine was because I knew he would fail on his hind end but I thought with work and strengthening it would come right. And it did vet agreed he would have failed him first off but 9 months later he would have passed for what we needed. Though he has had a lot of time off this summer so all that strength has gone and it's caused a suspensory strain due to his confirmation he has done everything and more we needed and other than failing over and tearing a hole in his stifle this is the first time he has been lame in the 5 years we have had him. 
If he had been vetted and failed and we might have walked away we would have missed out on a gem of a horse.

 &#128522; I've actually enjoyed this thread tonight it's been nice having a good old discussion.


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

rachk89 said:



			That's bacteria, not viruses. Viruses can't be cured with antibiotics, they don't work that way sadly. They mutate too much.
		
Click to expand...

Technically, it's cytopathic a effect of bacteria so both are usually treated with different meds.


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

ester said:



			is xraying a preventative measure? surely the definition of prevantative is that it prevents something, xraying merely observes. 

I have certainly never heard your theory on obtaining the best field data! I do feel your questions/what you are asking seems to have changed as posts have gone on but maybe that is just me.
		
Click to expand...

Not really changing since the initial query that was open-ended to begin with.  Anyhow, I do appreciate all the feedback.


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

rachk89 said:



			I'm in agreement with slightlyconfused. My horse was born with it, it's part of his conformation. For such a large, bulky horse he has quite a short back in comparison to others of his build and height. So the vertebrae have less room. Nothing could be done, but he didn't need surgery. Hopefully never will either, but you never know.

He has issues with his hind legs too, in particular his right hind, but I think this was caused from him having to hold himself oddly because of his sore back. Now that he can move without being in pain, he can do things he couldn't before, but his muscles aren't used to doing it so struggle. He's getting better with work, but we have a long way to go.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing!


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

Slightlyconfused said:



			The thing is what would you do if you trail a horse, say eventer for an example, never had a days lameness completing at a decent height and scope for a bit more everything you ever wanted. 
Flys through a five stage vetting but then you decide for back xrays and vet finds ks. Nothing big just a few touching so is that an instant fail? No one would have known it was there and you could have had the rest of his life with no issues what so ever or when horse is mid teens he starts to slow down and not feel right and then it's found. 

Which is the right thing to do? X-ray and then walk away from a horse that is not symptomatic and a good chance of never being symptomatic or do what a lot of us do and just buy the horse in front of you knowing that anything can happen round the corner. 

Is the reason that horse is not symptomatic because of the level of fittness and conditioning it's been kept in and then if it's dropped in its new home will that then start the process of it being symptomatic? 

I hope some of that makes sense as I'm tired and my asthma has decided to come back out to play.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing!  It's all a chance we take with horses.  Veterinarians have also expressed the same thing: you could have a horse competing at high level with vertebrae that "kiss" without any major issues in both physical performance and personality.


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

Wagtail said:



			From personal experience, the youngest horsse here to be diagnosed was a 4 year old TB that was born into racing but had never raced. He was 'rescued' from a paddock by a livery of mine who paid £700 for him as a starved and dehydrated son of a Derby winner. Once we got him into good condition, it was clear that he would never allow himself to be ridden. He was found to have severe kissing spine. The second youngest was a 14.2hh cob 5 years old. Started off in a riding school. Bucked and was intermittently lame on 3 legs. Diagnosed with very mild KS (two vertebra rubbing). Third youngest was a 7 year old WB that was very nappy and occasionally reared. Then I had two of my own. One aged 11 and a retired steeple chaser. The only problems he exhibited was to run off with novice riders and he struggled with right canter to begin with. However, with strengthening work he became a nice little dressage horse. The final one was 8 when I got him and he was explosive after you saddled him and asked him to move forward. He was fine once you were on him unless you tightened the girth. But his issues got worse and he was found to have ten vertebra touching or fused together. I had him operated on but he was just as bad after being girthed after the op so he was retired. He was an ex racer too. My personal belief is that overloading the spine at too young an age is responsible for many cases of KS.
		
Click to expand...

Very interesting.  How do you feel generally about cold-backed horses and warmup?  I know of a Grand Prix 11yo horse that is warmed up before each ride due to being a tighter built / cold-backed.  I do not know what his x-ray's reveal, but have been told the rider/owner believe warmup--on the longe to begin--is essential to keeping the horse in top health.  Any feelings about that?


----------



## be positive (4 September 2017)

Slightlyconfused said:



			The thing is what would you do if you trail a horse, say eventer for an example, never had a days lameness completing at a decent height and scope for a bit more everything you ever wanted. 
Flys through a five stage vetting but then you decide for back xrays and vet finds ks. Nothing big just a few touching so is that an instant fail? No one would have known it was there and you could have had the rest of his life with no issues what so ever or when horse is mid teens he starts to slow down and not feel right and then it's found. 

Which is the right thing to do? X-ray and then walk away from a horse that is not symptomatic and a good chance of never being symptomatic or do what a lot of us do and just buy the horse in front of you knowing that anything can happen round the corner. 

Is the reason that horse is not symptomatic because of the level of fittness and conditioning it's been kept in and then if it's dropped in its new home will that then start the process of it being symptomatic? 

I hope some of that makes sense as I'm tired and my asthma has decided to come back out to play.
		
Click to expand...

I can relate to almost this scenario, successful BE novice horse with an excellent record, tried twice behaved perfectly both times so purchased subject to vetting, my 2 minor concerns were related to the vet, 1 his front feet were flat and in need of shoeing, 2 he went slightly roached backed for a few strides when walked forward after tacking up but no other signs of a problem. 

He was vetted 8 or 9 days after the second try and behaved really badly under saddle, I was not there but the purchasers were, the vet was not impressed and wanted to stop the vetting but they wanted to continue, xrays showed some minor KS that were not considered to be conclusive, against advice they bought the horse.
I collected him as they were going on holiday, rode him the next day and could not believe they had bought a totally different horse to the one we viewed, I did advise returning him, an undeclared stable vice showed which gave grounds to do so, but was, like the vet, overruled and they took him home as planned when they returned from their holiday after I had had an "interesting" week riding him. 

He was a problem in many ways from day 1, they had various "experts" examine and treat him for different things, he was injected in the spine but not operated on, in between flare ups in behaviour he did his job, took his young rider round numerous events fairly successfully but never performed as he had in his previous home, he was sold a few years later for a nominal price has since gone Intermediate, collected more points but he seemed to have gaps in his record where I guess he had to be treated to keep him going.    

To get to the point I think once he was sold the rider backed off the work, there was over a week between us trying and getting our vet out, let the grooms tick him over and the KS that had been managed, probably not even known or suspected, became uncomfortable which is why he blew up at the vetting, they should have walked away while they had the chance, I think he would have been fine if he had stayed in full work until vetting then once in his new home he would have become symptomatic, the outcome would have been the same for the horse but they would not have lost £££'s  .


----------



## Goldenstar (4 September 2017)

My horse passed a five stage vetting wirh hindsight you can see the signs in his record prior to purchase but hindsight is a wonderful thing .


----------



## Slightlyconfused (4 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			Very interesting.  How do you feel generally about cold-backed horses and warmup?  I know of a Grand Prix 11yo horse that is warmed up before each ride due to being a tighter built / cold-backed.  I do not know what his x-ray's reveal, but have been told the rider/owner believe warmup--on the longe to begin--is essential to keeping the horse in top health.  Any feelings about that?
		
Click to expand...

That also could have nothing to do with ks he could have a muscular problem like pssm. 

One of mine has had a few tying up episodes and he can get stiff/cold backed but if I keep his muscles warm, spend more time on his warm up and get the bleep to actually eat his vit e and alcar as it does help improve him then he shows none of the cold backed and tense symptoms. 

You can't look at a horse and go that has ks from the way that horse likes to be managed  there are so many factors involved and if someone finds a routine that works why investigate further if the horse is happy?


----------



## daffy44 (4 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			Was the full cervical and back done?  Were there any vertebrae that showed any form of degeneration?  Have you done any x-rays on the older horse to see if anything has changed?  The veterinarians I've consulted with have said it's very common to see compressed vertebrae in equine athletes (even dressage).  What are your thoughts on that?
		
Click to expand...

Both horses had full cervical and backs done, and there was no degeneration visible on either horse at the time of xray.  I have not xrayed either of them since as neither horse has given me any cause to, I accept that wear and tear may well be visible now on the older horse, but she shows absolutely no signs of discomfort whatsoever, nor does she show any stiffening etc through her back. Her legs are scanned annually, as are all my horses, as a preventative measure, and her legs scan very well too.


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

rachk89 said:



			Bacteria mutates but at a slow rate than viruses. Viruses mutate much faster, colds can't be cured because of this. The virus mutates too quickly and there's too many different strains of the stupid virus now. Bacteria probably wouldn't bother mutating if it wasn't for us trying to kill it with antibiotics. Antibiotics focus on a part of the bacteria to destroy, usually a protein that makes it up. You've got something to focus on with bacteria. You can try and do that with a virus and 24 hours later it's mutated itself so you're back at square one. Yes the bacteria can change and eventually fight off the antibiotics but that takes a lot of time.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing.  Viruses and bacterium are often synonymous, for example: bacteriophages are viruses that infect bacteria.  Anyhow, I'm sure this is now off-topic!  ;-)


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

daffy44 said:



			Both horses had full cervical and backs done, and there was no degeneration visible on either horse at the time of xray.  I have not xrayed either of them since as neither horse has given me any cause to, I accept that wear and tear may well be visible now on the older horse, but she shows absolutely no signs of discomfort whatsoever, nor does she show any stiffening etc through her back. Her legs are scanned annually, as are all my horses, as a preventative measure, and her legs scan very well too.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you for expanding.  Annual scan of legs are hugely important!  ;-)


----------



## marieshorses (4 September 2017)

Slightlyconfused said:



			That also could have nothing to do with ks he could have a muscular problem like pssm. 

One of mine has had a few tying up episodes and he can get stiff/cold backed but if I keep his muscles warm, spend more time on his warm up and get the bleep to actually eat his vit e and alcar as it does help improve him then he shows none of the cold backed and tense symptoms. 

You can't look at a horse and go that has ks from the way that horse likes to be managed  there are so many factors involved and if someone finds a routine that works why investigate further if the horse is happy?
		
Click to expand...

What type of Vitamin E are you supplementing with?  And I assume the ALCAR is l-carnitine?


----------



## ycbm (4 September 2017)

Here's mine. Cold backed in winter since four. X ray taken at seven after performance issues. Five kissing due to severe crowding. High level dressage bred on both sides, mainly Hanoverian.


----------



## ester (4 September 2017)

*continues to itch now we've dragged bacteriophage into the fray too... 


ALCAR is Acetyl l-carnitine.


----------



## cobgoblin (4 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			Thanks for sharing.  Viruses and bacterium are often synonymous, for example: bacteriophages are viruses that infect bacteria.  Anyhow, I'm sure this is now off-topic!  ;-)
		
Click to expand...

Viruses and bacteria are definitely not synonymous. They are two separate entities.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (4 September 2017)

ester said:



			*continues to itch now we've dragged bacteriophage into the fray too...
		
Click to expand...


----------



## ester (4 September 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			Viruses and bacteria are definitely not synonymous. They are two separate entities.
		
Click to expand...

and even if they weren't phage wouldn't be any sort of example  ps I love you




*hand sitting fail and breathe... 


MoC stop laughing at me


----------



## ycbm (4 September 2017)

ester said:



			and even if they weren't phage wouldn't be any sort of example  ps I love you




*hand sitting fail and breathe... 


MoC stop laughing at me 

Click to expand...

You know what makes my teeth itch? The expression 'it makes my teeth itch'     

I keep wondering what the OP's agenda is here.  OP what did you actually want?


----------



## ester (4 September 2017)

lol, I'm only itching, no teeth involved, that one goes over my head!


----------



## MotherOfChickens (4 September 2017)

ester said:



			MoC stop laughing at me 

Click to expand...

I'm not just laughing at you


----------



## ester (4 September 2017)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I'm not just laughing at you 

Click to expand...

ah with me, excellent . I shall therefore continue to make nice comments about your new pony.


----------



## cobgoblin (4 September 2017)

I've caught the itch....do you think it's bacterial or viral?


----------



## ester (4 September 2017)

idiopathic. 

I do find that as a dx about on a par with 'it's a virus' .


----------



## marieshorses (5 September 2017)

ycbm said:



			Here's mine. Cold backed in winter since four. X ray taken at seven after performance issues. Five kissing due to severe crowding. High level dressage bred on both sides, mainly Hanoverian.






Click to expand...

THANK YOU for sharing!  Did you have issues with self-carriage while trying to collect?


----------



## marieshorses (5 September 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			Viruses and bacteria are definitely not synonymous. They are two separate entities.
		
Click to expand...

You're missing my point in medicine and treatment (viruses that infect bacteria).


----------



## Northern (5 September 2017)

ester said:



			*continues to itch now we've dragged bacteriophage into the fray too... 


ALCAR is Acetyl l-carnitine.
		
Click to expand...

Joining you here, exiting stage left before I fall off my chair


----------



## marieshorses (5 September 2017)

Diva&Rosie'sMum said:



			I thought with viruses it was that they get inside cells so drugs cannot 'kill' them without also killing the cells ? That and of course they are clever but bacteria mutate too; just look at all the antibiotic resistance stuff.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing.  Yes, and what's most fascinating is the role this plays in degenerative conditions like osteoarthritis, for example. I'm also very interested in this subject matter as it relates to equines.  https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-n...ss-not-just-wear-and-tear-study-suggests.html

"Each individual pathogen causes disease in a different way, which makes it challenging to understand the basic biology of infection. But, when considering the interactions of infectious agents with their hosts, some common themes of pathogenesis emerge."


----------



## marieshorses (5 September 2017)

ycbm said:



			How can we hypothesize about why 80% of horses have kissing spine without any evidence that 80% of horses, have kissing spine?
		
Click to expand...

For example, in collective studies there is an "estimated" number that X percent of the population will contract the influenza virus, or 65% of the global population is infected with X bacteria.  My original post asked if this forum has ever heard of "80% of horses and kissing spine" and specifically the age of horses being pooled.


----------



## marieshorses (5 September 2017)

ester said:



			*continues to itch now we've dragged bacteriophage into the fray too... 


ALCAR is Acetyl l-carnitine.
		
Click to expand...

Since I am not aware of every single nutrition supplement in the equine marketplace, I asked specifically about ALCAR to make sure this wasn't a patented/synergistic blend of nutrients with L-Carnitine included.  I'm sure since you were so quick to point out the form of AA, you probably know the difference between the two: L-Carnitine vs Acetyl L-Carnitine.  Which form do you prefer using in equine nutrition?


----------



## cobgoblin (5 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			You're missing my point in medicine and treatment (viruses that infect bacteria).
		
Click to expand...

No...I was correcting a gross and basic inaccuracy.


----------



## Slightlyconfused (5 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			What type of Vitamin E are you supplementing with?  And I assume the ALCAR is l-carnitine?
		
Click to expand...

Natural vit e oil



ester said:



			*continues to itch now we've dragged bacteriophage into the fray too... 


ALCAR is Acetyl l-carnitine.
		
Click to expand...

This


----------



## ester (5 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			Since I am not aware of every single nutrition supplement in the equine marketplace, I asked specifically about ALCAR to make sure this wasn't a patented/synergistic blend of nutrients with L-Carnitine included.  I'm sure since you were so quick to point out the form of AA, you probably know the difference between the two: L-Carnitine vs Acetyl L-Carnitine.  Which form do you prefer using in equine nutrition?
		
Click to expand...

Uh? I just answered the question you asked about what it was sorry for trying to be helpful so quickly, I'll be slower next time if that's a bad thing!


----------



## marieshorses (5 September 2017)

ester said:



			Uh? I just answered the question you asked about what it was sorry for trying to be helpful so quickly, I'll be slower next time if that's a bad thing![/QUOTE

Thanks!  Of which two do you prefer supplementing with L-Carnitine vs Acetyl L-Carnitine?
		
Click to expand...


----------



## marieshorses (5 September 2017)

Slightlyconfused said:



			Natural vit e oil



This
		
Click to expand...


OK, so d-alpha-tocopherol?


----------



## marieshorses (5 September 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			No...I was correcting a gross and basic inaccuracy.
		
Click to expand...

If the host carries pathogens (like an immune disruptive parasite), couldn't that give rise to disease-causing viruses and bacteria which are treated in sync with the each other?


----------



## ycbm (5 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			THANK YOU for sharing!  Did you have issues with self-carriage while trying to collect?
		
Click to expand...

No. I had issues with absolutely exploding at markers in a dressage arena. At home, he worked like a dream apart from being cold backed. I warmed him under lights before riding. He tolerated pain until you gave him the additional stress of competition. 

I had his back x rayed the first time he was 'cold backed' on a warm day after being warmed by lights. He had been carrying that problem stoically since he was first broken in.  I think there are many horses like him, and that you cannot say that because a horse shows no pain that it is not in pain. 

Please will you tell us what your objective is in a starting this thread? Are you trying to write a paper or is this just personal interest? I'm finding your line of questioning confusing.


----------



## cobgoblin (5 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			If the host carries pathogens (like an immune disruptive parasite), couldn't that give rise to disease-causing viruses and bacteria which are treated in sync with the each other?
		
Click to expand...

Treating a viral disease and a bacterial disease at the same time does not make bacteria and viruses synonymous.


----------



## cobgoblin (5 September 2017)

ycbm said:



			Please will you tell us what your objective is in a starting this thread? Are you trying to write a paper or is this just personal interest? I'm finding your line of questioning confusing.
		
Click to expand...


I'm finding it similar to an acid trip!


----------



## marieshorses (5 September 2017)

ycbm said:



			No. I had issues with absolutely exploding at markers in a dressage arena. At home, he worked like a dream apart from being cold backed. I warmed him under lights before riding. He tolerated pain until you gave him the additional stress of competition. 

I had his back x rayed the first time he was 'cold backed' on a warm day after being warmed by lights. He had been carrying that problem stoically since he was first broken in.  I think there are many horses like him, and that you cannot say that because a horse shows no pain that it is not in pain. 

Please will you tell us what your objective is in a starting this thread? Are you trying to write a paper or is this just personal interest? I'm finding your line of questioning confusing.
		
Click to expand...

What problem did he carry after being radiographed?  I agree with you 100% > "you cannot say that because a horse shows no pain that it is not in pain."  The veterinarians often say "if the horse shows no pain" then all is good.  Problem is the subjective ideas of "pain" perception and how that is used in training.


----------



## marieshorses (5 September 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			Treating a viral disease and a bacterial disease at the same time does not make bacteria and viruses synonymous.
		
Click to expand...

OK, I will agree do disagree.  *what is an "acid trip"?


----------



## marieshorses (5 September 2017)

ycbm said:



			No. I had issues with absolutely exploding at markers in a dressage arena. At home, he worked like a dream apart from being cold backed. I warmed him under lights before riding. He tolerated pain until you gave him the additional stress of competition. 

I had his back x rayed the first time he was 'cold backed' on a warm day after being warmed by lights. He had been carrying that problem stoically since he was first broken in.  I think there are many horses like him, and that you cannot say that because a horse shows no pain that it is not in pain. 

Please will you tell us what your objective is in a starting this thread? Are you trying to write a paper or is this just personal interest? I'm finding your line of questioning confusing.
		
Click to expand...

I just referred back to your older message with the radiograph attached.  Thanks again for sharing!


----------



## ycbm (5 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			Thank you for expanding.  Annual scan of legs are hugely important!  ;-)
		
Click to expand...

I think you may have mistaken the level that most people on this forum are riding at. Most of us are simply leisure riders. I have competed affiliated and have friends who compete affiliated in almost every discipline,  and I know of absolutely no-one who scans legs unless the horse had an issue.


----------



## ycbm (5 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			I just referred back to your older message with the radiograph attached.  Thanks again for sharing!
		
Click to expand...

I know, that's why I answered you!

You have not answered me, though. 

Please will you tell us what your objective is in a starting this thread? Are you trying to write a paper or is this just personal interest? I'm finding your line of questioning confusing. 

You are clearly academic and yet you don't seem to have done the most fundamental search of published studies, asking on here instead, but they are not available to general forum users on a normal Google search. 

If this is simply personal, it doesn't sound it. If it is research for a paper, then ethically you need to tell us who you are and the reason for your study.



PS just in case, you do not have my permission to use my x ray picture anywhere else.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (5 September 2017)

ycbm said:



			PS just in case, you do not have my permission to use my x ray picture anywhere else.
		
Click to expand...

tbh, if it wasn't the wrong time of year, I'd have said that this was some sort of rubbish survey-based honours project


----------



## ycbm (5 September 2017)

Dupe


----------



## ycbm (5 September 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			I'm finding it similar to an acid trip!
		
Click to expand...

More like magic mushrooms, I think?  They grow best in horse fields


----------



## marieshorses (5 September 2017)

ycbm said:



			I know, that's why I answered you!

You have not answered me, though. 

Please will you tell us what your objective is in a starting this thread? Are you trying to write a paper or is this just personal interest? I'm finding your line of questioning confusing. 

You are clearly academic and yet you don't seem to have done the most fundamental search of published studies, asking on here instead, but they are not available to general forum users on a normal Google search. 

If this is simply personal, it doesn't sound it. If it is research for a paper, then ethically you need to tell us who you are and the reason for your study.



PS just in case, you do not have my permission to use my x ray picture anywhere else.
		
Click to expand...

I would never use any information here for public use.  My intent for starting this thread is to learn about spinal issues from the owners regardless of their level in riding.  Equines have always fascinated me as a hobbyist in addition to their physical performance.


----------



## ester (5 September 2017)

I think maybe you need to check the meaning of 'synonymous'? As it is I totally agree with cobgoblin in my professional capacity - them being present at the same time is not what synonymous means, is English your first language? 

I didn't answer your second question because I was apparently too quick answering the other one so figured a delay would be appreciated. I don't have a horse with a muscle myopathy so it isn't something I have had to give much consideration too, given who I think talks sense nutrition wise it would be the ALCAR without doing further research


----------



## cobgoblin (5 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			OK, I will agree do disagree.  *what is an "acid trip"? 

Click to expand...

Lysergic acid diethylamide....a psychedelic drug.


----------



## Wagtail (5 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			Very interesting.  How do you feel generally about cold-backed horses and warmup?  I know of a Grand Prix 11yo horse that is warmed up before each ride due to being a tighter built / cold-backed.  I do not know what his x-ray's reveal, but have been told the rider/owner believe warmup--on the longe to begin--is essential to keeping the horse in top health.  Any feelings about that?
		
Click to expand...

Cold backed is a symptom of back pain. But many people just dismiss it and work with it. I certainly found my 8 yr old TB with the very severe KS was slightly less reactive to being saddled when he had worn a magnetic rug for 30mins to an hour before saddling. However, it doesn't take away from the fact that the horse had a serious issue and most likely it just made the pain slightly more bearable rather than remove it completely. Horses are generally very stoic animals.


----------



## marieshorses (5 September 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Cold backed is a symptom of back pain. But many people just dismiss it and work with it. I certainly found my 8 yr old TB with the very severe KS was slightly less reactive to being saddled when he had worn a magnetic rug for 30mins to an hour before saddling. However, it doesn't take away from the fact that the horse had a serious issue and most likely it just made the pain slightly more bearable rather than remove it completely. Horses are generally very stoic animals.
		
Click to expand...

THANK YOU for responding.   How would you define a cold-backed horse?  One that has actual issues with kissing spine or a tighter bodied horse that needs a longer warmup to get supple?  I ask because there are known bloodlines (I know in dressage) that produce horses that are referred to as very loose/gumby-like and then there are tighter bodies horses that feel completely different.  So I'm technically confused on what "cold backed" means overall.


----------



## ycbm (5 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			THANK YOU for responding.   How would you define a cold-backed horse?  One that has actual issues with kissing spine or a tighter bodied horse that needs a longer warmup to get supple?  I ask because there are known bloodlines (I know in dressage) that produce horses that are referred to as very loose/gumby-like and then there are tighter bodies horses that feel completely different.  So I'm technically confused on what "cold backed" means overall.
		
Click to expand...

Cold backed means it doesn't like you sitting on it when you first get on. Some dip or wriggle unless you ride in a light seat. Some buck you off. And everything in between. 

I've had three. The first had kidney failure, the second a very weak back and had been ridden by too heavy a rider, the third had kissing spines. I believe it is always connected with pain.

Can you tell us what country you are in?  Cold backed is a commonly understood term in the UK.


----------



## marieshorses (5 September 2017)

ester said:



			I think maybe you need to check the meaning of 'synonymous'? As it is I totally agree with cobgoblin in my professional capacity - them being present at the same time is not what synonymous means, is English your first language? 

I didn't answer your second question because I was apparently too quick answering the other one so figured a delay would be appreciated. I don't have a horse with a muscle myopathy so it isn't something I have had to give much consideration too, given who I think talks sense nutrition wise it would be the ALCAR without doing further research
		
Click to expand...

Oh, interesting.  So you would use Acetyl L-Carnitine (ALCAR) for what exactly as an equine supplement?


----------



## ester (5 September 2017)

http://forageplustalk.co.uk/epsm-muscle-disorder-by-dr-kellon-vmd/


----------



## marieshorses (5 September 2017)

ycbm said:



			Cold backed means it doesn't like you sitting on it when you first get on. Some dip or wriggle unless you ride in a light seat. Some buck you off. And everything in between. 

I've had three. The first had kidney failure, the second a very weak back and had been ridden by too heavy a rider, the third had kissing spines. I believe it is always connected with pain.

Can you tell us what country you are in?  Cold backed is a commonly understood term in the UK.
		
Click to expand...

So it sounds like "cold backed" can mean a variety of issue in the back, not just kissing spine.  I've heard the term used in both UK and USA.  I'm European, currently living in Europe and overseas.


----------



## ycbm (5 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			So it sounds like "cold backed" can mean a variety of issue in the back, not just kissing spine.  I've heard the term used in both UK and USA.  I'm European, currently living in Europe and overseas.
		
Click to expand...

Cold backed is a symptom of many problems, not any kind of diagnosis.

There is plenty of stuff online on vet sites and horse sites abbot back issues. It sounds like you need to go and do a lot of background reading before you focus in on kissing spines. Otherwise, we'll be here for a year educating you about common horse terms. Not that any of us mind helping.


----------



## Blurr (5 September 2017)

Really interesting discussion.  I just wish Ester itched less and said more  

With regard to the racing TB, I think the breeding programme in which 'fast' was the preferred trait (albeit it was actually winners that were bred from and not all winners are fast, just faster than the slowest), over the generations produced a particular angle of hind limb and pelvis as a side effect and is the reason for fillies being routinely caslicked to prevent infection.  I wonder if that angle has contributed to the dorsal spinous process crowding?  

I have a TB mare that was operated on for KS.  Successful operation but mental damage had already gone too far.  She's now a happy pet.


----------



## Blurr (5 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			So it sounds like "cold backed" can mean a variety of issue in the back, not just kissing spine.
		
Click to expand...

Yeh, cold backed and kissing spine are not synonymous.   (Not) Unlike bacteria and viruses


----------



## ester (5 September 2017)

I don't think anyone in my life has ever suggested I should say more   . 

I was an attempt to try and limit my blood pressure at bedtime , and not wanting to derail the thread too much. 

I will reiterate, particularly as the OP is in europe that there are probably a lot more people having had non-symptomatic horses xrayed than here because of different Pre purchase exam and insurance set ups.


----------



## Notimetoride (5 September 2017)

Regandal said:



			I suspect it's the same scenario as the 'navicular changes' found in lots of horses at pm.  Most of the horses had no symptoms.
		
Click to expand...

I was given a horse that had previously been sold, but the vetting highlighted navicular (therefore unable to sell).  I willingly took on this fabulous horse knowing his navicular one day would catch up with him.  It never did - I had him for about 10 years and he was pts at 17 for totally unrelated reasons !


----------



## marieshorses (5 September 2017)

ycbm said:



			Cold backed is a symptom of many problems, not any kind of diagnosis.

There is plenty of stuff online on vet sites and horse sites abbot back issues. It sounds like you need to go and do a lot of background reading before you focus in on kissing spines. Otherwise, we'll be here for a year educating you about common horse terms. Not that any of us mind helping.
		
Click to expand...

I think you're missing my entire point and why I have come to a forum asking questions about kissing spine.  I'd like to know what the regular horse owner knows about kissing spine or issues within the cervical/back.  There is amassed data on spinal issues in equines, usually postmortem.


----------



## marieshorses (5 September 2017)

ester said:



			I don't think anyone in my life has ever suggested I should say more   . 

I was an attempt to try and limit my blood pressure at bedtime , and not wanting to derail the thread too much. 

I will reiterate, particularly as the OP is in europe that there are probably a lot more people having had non-symptomatic horses xrayed than here because of different Pre purchase exam and insurance set ups.
		
Click to expand...

This discussion raised your blood pressure?  Wow, I'm so sorry...


----------



## marieshorses (5 September 2017)

Blurr said:



			Yeh, cold backed and kissing spine are not synonymous.   (Not) Unlike bacteria and viruses 

Click to expand...

Bacteria and viruses are treated in sync with each other if you're versed in modern infectious diseases.  Go ahead and ridicule--it's perfectly fine with me.


----------



## ester (5 September 2017)

in-synch is not in anyway the same as saying something is synonymous! A point which I made earlier to clarify for you.

And no it didn't raise my blood pressure... that was my point :rolleyes3:


----------



## cobgoblin (5 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			Bacteria and viruses are treated in sync with each other if you're versed in modern infectious diseases.  Go ahead and ridicule--it's perfectly fine with me.  

Click to expand...

Synchronous is different to synonymous.


----------



## ycbm (5 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			I think you're missing my entire point and why I have come to a forum asking questions about kissing spine.  I'd like to know what the regular horse owner knows about kissing spine or issues within the cervical/back.  There is amassed data on spinal issues in equines, usually postmortem.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think you've made you point at all clearly, but that may be because English is not your first language, I don't know.

I am confused whether you want to learn from us or whether you are questionning us to see how much we know. And I am even more confused by this latest answer of yours. 

You want to know how much we know? Why?  This sounds more and more like a fishing expedition where we are being used a guinea pigs in a research project without proper disclosure.

If it's not, can you please either do your own research about the basics of  back issues or ask more specific questions about what you want answers to?


PS I'm going outside now to pick some more mushrooms.


----------



## JFTDWS (5 September 2017)

ester said:



			In which case I suggest you stop asking for 'opinions' including those from vets and start with a pubmed search 

Click to expand...

Please, for the love of god, this...



marieshorses said:



			I've always felt the best field studies are generated in social conversations or observations--even without fundamental understanding of science.
		
Click to expand...

You may feel that.  It's not really borne out in the scientific world, though, and your repetition of qualitative concepts will only obscure decent, quantitative, scientific analysis...



Diva&Rosie'sMum said:



			I thought with viruses it was that they get inside cells so drugs cannot 'kill' them without also killing the cells ? That and of course they are clever but bacteria mutate too; just look at all the antibiotic resistance stuff.
		
Click to expand...

Many bacteria also survive inside of host cells during infection.  It is a huge factor in accessibility for the drug, certainly, but this isn't an insurmountable problem - we have drugs for TB, which survives inside of human immune cells in the lungs, for example.  Antibiotics target parts of the bacterium which don't exist in viruses - this is why antibiotics don't work against viruses. 

Bacteria are, at a molecular level, fairly different to animal cells, so it's relatively easy to find something to target and break/block in them, which doesn't exist in the host animal cell.  Viruses often hijack animal cell molecular machinery, and have fewer specific viral molecules, so there's less to target that won't ****** up the host cell too.  That, coupled with the high mutation rate makes viruses hard to design drugs against (although antivirals do exist and they do work in - very loosely - the same sort of manner as antibiotics: by targeting a pathogen's molecule and neutralising it).



marieshorses said:



			Thanks for sharing.  Viruses and bacterium are often synonymous, for example: bacteriophages are viruses that infect bacteria.  Anyhow, I'm sure this is now off-topic!  ;-)
		
Click to expand...

Ye gods...  I've heard it all now...


----------



## cobgoblin (5 September 2017)

JFTD said:



			Ye gods...  I've heard it all now...
		
Click to expand...


Do you want the mushrooms or the acid?
The schools have gone back haven't they?


----------



## JFTDWS (5 September 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			Do you want the mushrooms or the acid?
The schools have gone back haven't they?
		
Click to expand...

Both, I think the doors of perception need to be well and truly cleansed after this one!


----------



## ester (5 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			Bacteria and viruses are treated in sync with each other if you're versed in modern infectious diseases.  Go ahead and ridicule--it's perfectly fine with me.  

Click to expand...

Please don't suggest that some very learned members are not versed in infectious diseases when you are making completely incorrect statements (and this is not a matter of disagreeing, or a difference of opinion, it is just incorrect). It is quite rude when people are trying to help you with your understanding - whether that be language-based or not. We are well used to and very happy to help people out and explain things if confusion occurs but less so when you start making judgements about people whose qualifications you know nothing of. 

To a certain extent I would also advise caution if you are hoping to target 'ordinary horse owners'. Compared to other forums this board does tend towards those with a certain level of knowledge, experience and understanding, and if people don't have that knowledge to start with they often acquire it as they go along because unlike other boards it is rare that incorrect statements will be allowed to stand uncorrected or unchallenged. Rightly so given how high the forum comes up on google. 

It will also irk some people who like to help if they are presented with some very definite questions to answer if the person later then says they only wished to invite discussion. Much better to say you would like a discussion about it in the first instance as changing goal posts can be frustrating when you realise you may have answered differently, or that your answers just generated more questions that were not anticipated.


----------



## Rollin (5 September 2017)

Slightlyconfused said:



			The thing is what would you do if you trail a horse, say eventer for an example, never had a days lameness completing at a decent height and scope for a bit more everything you ever wanted. 
Flys through a five stage vetting but then you decide for back xrays and vet finds ks. Nothing big just a few touching so is that an instant fail? No one would have known it was there and you could have had the rest of his life with no issues what so ever or when horse is mid teens he starts to slow down and not feel right and then it's found. 

Which is the right thing to do? X-ray and then walk away from a horse that is not symptomatic and a good chance of never being symptomatic or do what a lot of us do and just buy the horse in front of you knowing that anything can happen round the corner. 

Is the reason that horse is not symptomatic because of the level of fittness and conditioning it's been kept in and then if it's dropped in its new home will that then start the process of it being symptomatic? 

I hope some of that makes sense as I'm tired and my asthma has decided to come back out to play.
		
Click to expand...

I had a horse investigated last year because he was sweating on his left shoulder when worked and Pro rider found him contracted on his right rein.  We had him investigated for this reason only.    He had never been lame, other than a knock in the field, two days box rest  and a foot abscess, didn't knap buck rear etc.  Clinic found mild' KS but did not x-ray his shoulder.  We did ridden 'physo' for KS, x-rays a year were dramatic - NO KS.  A second investigation with a sep. vet practice discovered the stiffness and sweating on his shoulder were caused by a rib fracture.  We think he had an accident when away from home.  The KS would never have been discovered had it not been for the referral for shoulder problem.  Three investigations each 6 moths apart and horse is 100% sound.  I was amazed at how much we improved his back with gentle exercise over two months.


----------



## marieshorses (5 September 2017)

ester said:



			Please don't suggest that some very learned members are not versed in infectious diseases when you are making completely incorrect statements (and this is not a matter of disagreeing, or a difference of opinion, it is just incorrect). It is quite rude when people are trying to help you with your understanding - whether that be language-based or not. We are well used to and very happy to help people out and explain things if confusion occurs but less so when you start making judgements about people whose qualifications you know nothing of. 


To a certain extent I would also advise caution if you are hoping to target 'ordinary horse owners'. Compared to other forums this board does tend towards those with a certain level of knowledge, experience and understanding, and if people don't have that knowledge to start with they often acquire it as they go along because unlike other boards it is rare that incorrect statements will be allowed to stand uncorrected or unchallenged. Rightly so given how high the forum comes up on google. 

 It will also irk some people who like to help if they are presented with some very definite questions to answer if the person later then says they only wished to invite discussion. Much better to say you would like a discussion about it in the first instance as changing goal posts can be frustrating when you realise you may have answered differently, or that your answers just generated more questions that were not anticipated.
		
Click to expand...

I did not go there with all the members, just one or two who seemed to engage after I suggested viral attributes to spinal degenerations in humans and equines.  

I do not need to use caution when trying to learn about equine health through their owners .  I've actually appreciated many of the members who gave me a case example of how they discovered kissing spine in their owned horse.

I asked in my original query if the forum had ever heard of such a thing: 80% of horses potentially have kissing spine.  Albeit the original question was open-ended, but so is anything spinal related due to the lack of studies on healthy horses.


----------



## marieshorses (5 September 2017)

Rollin said:



			I had a horse investigated last year because he was sweating on his left shoulder when worked and Pro rider found him contracted on his right rein.  We had him investigated for this reason only.    He had never been lame, other than a knock in the field, two days box rest  and a foot abscess, didn't knap buck rear etc.  Clinic found mild' KS but did not x-ray his shoulder.  We did ridden 'physo' for KS, x-rays a year were dramatic - NO KS.  A second investigation with a sep. vet practice discovered the stiffness and sweating on his shoulder were caused by a rib fracture.  We think he had an accident when away from home.  The KS would never have been discovered had it not been for the referral for shoulder problem.  Three investigations each 6 moths apart and horse is 100% sound.  I was amazed at how much we improved his back with gentle exercise over two months.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing your story.  Did he have issues in the bridle/mouth?


----------



## cyberhorse (5 September 2017)

This is not just a KS issue. Many horses who are vetted and Xray'd have some of the most horrendous films of their legs and are often in high levels of competition with no past history of lameness or poor performance. Yet some horses who are not in advanced/heavy work are badly effected and unsound with Xrays that show only slight deviations from what would be considered a normal film. As has just been said above conditioning does have a roll to play and regular maintenance physio is desirable for all horses before minor issues become more problematic or compensation injuries occur. Humans are advised to improve our core if you suffer from chronic back pain, I was advised to do weights to improve knee pain which originated from the joint itself for the same reason - improve the musculature support. An x-ray is not a scan it only shows hard tissues not the musculo-skeletal system as a whole. Neither works in isolation. More recent advances have also given credence to the important role of the fascia in normal functionality.

It's not just horses where x-rays and symptoms do not correlate, it is common in human medicine too. For the physical change itself, we can also see patients who are really struggling to function and reporting high levels of pain who on arthroscopy of an effected join show very minor tears of cartilage for example and then others where the clinical picture is pretty horrendous have functioned fine for many years and report their symptoms as "a bit irritating occasionally". This subjectivity I do not believe is confined to humans. I have one horse who is an absolute drama queen at the least bit of a thing and another who has had an abscess burst at the heel after not even being 1/10 lame. You can guess which one I worry about more and have professionally checked more frequently. 

As for bacteria and viruses please don't get me started on that one! (I should not be heading for the Gin this early in the day...) We have developed huge problems with antibacterial resistance which is, at least in part, due to them being inappropriately used to 'treat' infections which are viral. If anyone believes them to either a) be the same or b) be treated the same, then please could I can recommend some reading on Medical Microbiology for example Notes on Medical Bacteriology by Sleigh and Timbury. The confusion often arises from a misunderstanding of secondary infection or more complex pictures in the immunocompromised.


----------



## marieshorses (5 September 2017)

JFTD said:



			Please, for the love of god, this...



You may feel that.  It's not really borne out in the scientific world, though, and your repetition of qualitative concepts will only obscure decent, quantitative, scientific analysis...



Many bacteria also survive inside of host cells during infection.  It is a huge factor in accessibility for the drug, certainly, but this isn't an insurmountable problem - we have drugs for TB, which survives inside of human immune cells in the lungs, for example.  Antibiotics target parts of the bacterium which don't exist in viruses - this is why antibiotics don't work against viruses. 



Bacteria are, at a molecular level, fairly different to animal cells, so it's relatively easy to find something to target and break/block in them, which doesn't exist in the host animal cell.  Viruses often hijack animal cell molecular machinery, and have fewer specific viral molecules, so there's less to target that won't ****** up the host cell too.  That, coupled with the high mutation rate makes viruses hard to design drugs against (although antivirals do exist and they do work in - very loosely - the same sort of manner as antibiotics: by targeting a pathogen's molecule and neutralising it).


Ye gods...  I've heard it all now...
		
Click to expand...

I really would like to ask more questions here, but feel that I've annoyed some of the members in this forum.  If you're open to engaging more on this topic--as it relates to the immune system of equines--could I possibly ask your opinion to further my knowledge before heading into the actual research?


----------



## ester (5 September 2017)

I didn't say you went there with all the members, I am suggesting that going there with any is not appropriate when they were engaging to correct an incorrect statement from a position of knowledge.


----------



## daffy44 (5 September 2017)

ycbm said:



			I think you may have mistaken the level that most people on this forum are riding at. Most of us are simply leisure riders. I have competed affiliated and have friends who compete affiliated in almost every discipline,  and I know of absolutely no-one who scans legs unless the horse had an issue.
		
Click to expand...

I believe the reference to annual scans was in reply to my post in which I said that my horses legs were scanned annually as a preventative measure, my horses work at a high level, and I do scan annually as routine to hopefully prevent issues and also have an idea of wear and tear etc.


----------



## ycbm (5 September 2017)

daffy44 said:



			I believe the reference to annual scans was in reply to my post in which I said that my horses legs were scanned annually as a preventative measure, my horses work at a high level, and I do scan annually as routine to hopefully prevent issues and also have an idea of wear and tear etc.
		
Click to expand...

I realised that. I was responding to the OP's comment that annual scans were very important, and to point out to the OP that most people on here do not compete at a level where they would do annual scans. I thought s/he had some strange idea that because this is a forum of an internationally famous publication that we were all out brushing off our tailcoats every weekend


----------



## Theocat (5 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			I do not need to use caution when trying to learn about equine health through their owners ...

I asked in my original query if the forum had ever heard of such a thing: 80% of horses potentially have kissing spine.  Albeit the original question was open-ended, but so is anything spinal related due to the lack of studies on healthy horses.
		
Click to expand...

Lots of very patient people on this thread.

Anyway ... from my reading of this thread, I think you DO need to exercise caution, if you're trying to establish prevalence and causation of kissing spines by questioning owners, and especially if the interest was sparked in the first place by a study done on valuable sports horses that have been destroyed as a result of lameness.  You're starting from a highly selective sample that's predisposed to a certain result, and by asking individuals for their experiences, you're only compounding that sample because typically only those with experience of KS will respond.

I may have misunderstood what you're after, though ...


----------



## daffy44 (5 September 2017)

ycbm said:



			I realised that. I was responding to the OP's comment that annual scans were very important, and to point out to the OP that most people on here do not compete at a level where they would do annual scans. I thought s/he had some strange idea that because this is a forum of an internationally famous publication that we were all out brushing off our tailcoats every weekend 

Click to expand...

Yes, sorry,  I appreciate that, to be fair, I dont know many people who do annual scans either, but I just mentioned it as a reference to that particular horses general health, as whilst I scan annually, I certainly dont do spinal xrays without believing there to be a problem!


----------



## ycbm (5 September 2017)

daffy44 said:



			Yes, sorry,  I appreciate that, to be fair, I dont know many people who do annual scans either, but I just mentioned it as a reference to that particular horses general health, as whilst I scan annually, I certainly dont do spinal xrays without believing there to be a problem!
		
Click to expand...

When I went to view a horse at DHI, she told me that that x ray their competition horses leg joints annually. I think if you have horses competing at a very high level, that's very sensible. Like you, I know of no-one who x rays a spine unless there is a perceived problem. Though I do know of an event rider who had three four year olds vetted for purchase by him in 2016, and two were rejected for kissing spines. 

I would like to see some research whether the modern breeding for movement has created more congenital kissing spines. My confirmed and a suspect cold backed horse were both extremely 'well bred'  with passports littered with k&#369;r and prestatie, and one GP sire and one by a son of Voltaire who died young. 

I would also like to see some research about what causes kissing spines in a horse that isn't born with them. 

The trouble is that there is probably no expensive drug to be marketed on the back of that research, so we may never see it, unless racing starts to find it an issue, maybe.


----------



## rachk89 (5 September 2017)

ycbm said:



			The trouble is that there is probably no expensive drug to be marketed on the back of that research, so we may never see it, unless racing starts to find it an issue, maybe.
		
Click to expand...

Well they do use expensive drugs to heal kissing spine but dunno if it was based on research from horses not born with it. The drug used on my horse is usually used on people for osteoarthritis though.


----------



## ycbm (5 September 2017)

rachk89 said:



			Well they do use expensive drugs to heal kissing spine but dunno if it was based on research from horses not born with it. The drug used on my horse is usually used on people for osteoarthritis though.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I meant new drugs that aren't currently used. If they are already used, there's no advantage to drug companies in doing the research.


----------



## Slightlyconfused (5 September 2017)

ycbm said:



			I would like to see some research whether the modern breeding for movement has created more congenital kissing spines. My confirmed and a suspect cold backed horse were both extremely 'well bred'  with passports littered with k&#369;r and prestatie, and one GP sire and one by a son of Voltaire who died young. 

I would also like to see some research about what causes kissing spines in a horse that isn't born with them. 
.
		
Click to expand...

I do think modern breeding has a part to play in some cases of ks. 
I'm not an expert on totilas  (sorry if that the wrong spelling but my head and auto correct are arguing) and his breeding but if you look at him and his offspring compared to say Charlotte's lovely grey thats being produced the confirmation and movement difference is very obvious. 
I think not a lot of people when breeding some of these horses from "amazing" lines doenst matter what discipline don't actually look at the horses natural way of going and just go with "he is bred for the job" and that's it.


And also how do we know a horse isn't born with it. Someone can be born with osteoporosis but the boney changes don't actually appear until later on in life. Just like ankylosing spondilities  (again very sorry for the spelling) 

Does there need to be genetic research done to see if there is a genetic marker that predisposed horses to ks like there is are AS in humans?


----------



## daffy44 (5 September 2017)

ycbm said:



			When I went to view a horse at DHI, she told me that that x ray their competition horses leg joints annually. I think if you have horses competing at a very high level, that's very sensible. Like you, I know of no-one who x rays a spine unless there is a perceived problem. Though I do know of an event rider who had three four year olds vetted for purchase by him in 2016, and two were rejected for kissing spines. 

.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, the horses whose legs I scan annually as routine are a competing GP mare, and a younger horse competing Inter1, well on his way to GP.  I dont do the legs of the younger horses who do a lot less.


----------



## scats (5 September 2017)

daffy44 said:



			Yes, the horses whose legs I scan annually as routine are a competing GP mare, and a younger horse competing Inter1, well on his way to GP.  I dont do the legs of the younger horses who do a lot less.
		
Click to expand...

I had a horse who did a colletaral ligament injury in 2005.  The vets said that the type of injury he did was particularly common in event horses but, as in my lads case, the damage would start to occur weeks and sometimes months in advance but with no symptoms of lameness until it was basically too late, so many top event horses were routinely scanned to try and spot the initial stages of it.


----------



## tristar (6 September 2017)

you are not annoying me, i find it interesting keep delving into things, never be afraid to annoy, ask, explore. i wish there was more threads like this.

i generally lunge my horses before riding, i don`t need a  scientist to tell me what is happening in the initial processes i can feel that for myself and evaluate the consequences on my horses body as i feel it happening.

we need more threads like this, to understand what is happening and how its happening, why are so many warmblood horses unsound at a young age what causes this, and how to avoid it, is it the breeding, the lack of maturity when starting work, the way they are ridden, the rush to profit from them, or a simple fact that they are bred by people who don`t really have a true flair for breeding,  and see only profit in the current generation as opposed to long term vision, and who are breeding horses that are fundamentaly unsound to start with??????????????


----------



## cobgoblin (6 September 2017)

Has anyone ever heard of a pony with kissing spines?  All those I've known have been relatively large horses of 16hh plus.


----------



## Wagtail (6 September 2017)

tristar said:



			you are not annoying me, i find it interesting keep delving into things, never be afraid to annoy, ask, explore. i wish there was more threads like this.

i generally lunge my horses before riding, i don`t need a  scientist to tell me what is happening in the initial processes i can feel that for myself and evaluate the consequences on my horses body as i feel it happening.

we need more threads like this, to understand what is happening and how its happening, why are so many warmblood horses unsound at a young age what causes this, and how to avoid it, is it the breeding, the lack of maturity when starting work, the way they are ridden, the rush to profit from them, or a simple fact that they are bred by people who don`t really have a true flair for breeding,  and see only profit in the current generation as opposed to long term vision, and who are breeding horses that are fundamentaly unsound to start with??????????????
		
Click to expand...

Well said. I have been reading this thread with ??? coming out of my head. I don't understand the hostile/mocking/patronising tone of some of the posts. I think it's a good interesting topic.


----------



## HufflyPuffly (6 September 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			Has anyone ever heard of a pony with kissing spines?  All those I've known have been relatively large horses of 16hh plus.
		
Click to expand...

My friend has one with fairly severe KS who is 15hh, Connemara cross cob at best guess.


----------



## tristar (6 September 2017)

another question about inherited tendancies.

ways in which conformation contributes to ks and other problems,?   


i personally find some wb horses confo nothing short of  big time weird, they offend my eye, i have very high expectations where conformation is concerned.


----------



## Slightlyconfused (6 September 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			Has anyone ever heard of a pony with kissing spines?  All those I've known have been relatively large horses of 16hh plus.
		
Click to expand...

Friends 15hh five year old cob count? 

Other than that no i havent heard of a p9ny with it.


----------



## Slightlyconfused (6 September 2017)

tristar said:



			another question about inherited tendancies.

ways in which conformation contributes to ks and other problems,?   


i personally find some wb horses confo nothing short of  big time weird, they offend my eye, i have very high expectations where conformation is concerned.
		
Click to expand...

I also think there are a lot more people these days who do not know how to work a horse properly. You can go have lessons, get a horse, chuck a gadget on it and get it to "look" like all those pretty horses with no knowledge of what you are actually doing to your horses body.


----------



## Wagtail (6 September 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			Has anyone ever heard of a pony with kissing spines?  All those I've known have been relatively large horses of 16hh plus.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, the cob I mentioned further up the thread was 14hh when diagnosed but gre to 14.2hh.


----------



## marieshorses (6 September 2017)

tristar said:



			you are not annoying me, i find it interesting keep delving into things, never be afraid to annoy, ask, explore. i wish there was more threads like this.

i generally lunge my horses before riding, i don`t need a  scientist to tell me what is happening in the initial processes i can feel that for myself and evaluate the consequences on my horses body as i feel it happening.

we need more threads like this, to understand what is happening and how its happening, why are so many warmblood horses unsound at a young age what causes this, and how to avoid it, is it the breeding, the lack of maturity when starting work, the way they are ridden, the rush to profit from them, or a simple fact that they are bred by people who don`t really have a true flair for breeding,  and see only profit in the current generation as opposed to long term vision, and who are breeding horses that are fundamentaly unsound to start with??????????????
		
Click to expand...

Thank you!  I believe there is so much to learn in regard to backing a horse depending on age.  Have you ever heard of horses that are supposed to be a prized future Grand Prix first going *under saddle* around age 5?  I have understood this to be controversial at times because of the younger horse classes and benefits to both rider/owner, not necessarily the horse.  

I'm also concerned about the impact (-) Vitamin D from sunlight (even on a cloudy day) could have on bone development in young horses, also to the immune system due to most sporthorses being kept indoors.  What are your feeling about that?


----------



## marieshorses (6 September 2017)

Wagtail said:



			Well said. I have been reading this thread with ??? coming out of my head. I don't understand the hostile/mocking/patronising tone of some of the posts. I think it's a good interesting topic.
		
Click to expand...


Thanks!  I just feel really bad for those people.  All I'm trying to do is engage with likeminded horse owners that either have a background in science or not.


----------



## cobgoblin (6 September 2017)

This is quite interesting...

https://aaep.org/sites/default/files/issues/proceedings-11proceedings-424.PDF


----------



## marieshorses (6 September 2017)

Theocat said:



			Lots of very patient people on this thread.

Anyway ... from my reading of this thread, I think you DO need to exercise caution, if you're trying to establish prevalence and causation of kissing spines by questioning owners, and especially if the interest was sparked in the first place by a study done on valuable sports horses that have been destroyed as a result of lameness.  You're starting from a highly selective sample that's predisposed to a certain result, and by asking individuals for their experiences, you're only compounding that sample because typically only those with experience of KS will respond.

I may have misunderstood what you're after, though ...
		
Click to expand...

My point is that the industry is really neglecting areas of equine health (and prevention).  I'm not here to question people in regard to their knowledge of hardcore science.   I feel the lack of quality studies--especially preventative--are even noted with owners who have horses diagnosed with KS.  The value I'm trying to gain is by learning how the owner found the KS; what do owners know about KS even if their horse does not have KS; if there are any studies similar to the Nurses Study that follows horses from foal to competition; etc; etc.


----------



## marieshorses (6 September 2017)

cyberhorse said:



			This is not just a KS issue. Many horses who are vetted and Xray'd have some of the most horrendous films of their legs and are often in high levels of competition with no past history of lameness or poor performance. Yet some horses who are not in advanced/heavy work are badly effected and unsound with Xrays that show only slight deviations from what would be considered a normal film. As has just been said above conditioning does have a roll to play and regular maintenance physio is desirable for all horses before minor issues become more problematic or compensation injuries occur. Humans are advised to improve our core if you suffer from chronic back pain, I was advised to do weights to improve knee pain which originated from the joint itself for the same reason - improve the musculature support. An x-ray is not a scan it only shows hard tissues not the musculo-skeletal system as a whole. Neither works in isolation. More recent advances have also given credence to the important role of the fascia in normal functionality.

It's not just horses where x-rays and symptoms do not correlate, it is common in human medicine too. For the physical change itself, we can also see patients who are really struggling to function and reporting high levels of pain who on arthroscopy of an effected join show very minor tears of cartilage for example and then others where the clinical picture is pretty horrendous have functioned fine for many years and report their symptoms as "a bit irritating occasionally". This subjectivity I do not believe is confined to humans. I have one horse who is an absolute drama queen at the least bit of a thing and another who has had an abscess burst at the heel after not even being 1/10 lame. You can guess which one I worry about more and have professionally checked more frequently. 

As for bacteria and viruses please don't get me started on that one! (I should not be heading for the Gin this early in the day...) We have developed huge problems with antibacterial resistance which is, at least in part, due to them being inappropriately used to 'treat' infections which are viral. If anyone believes them to either a) be the same or b) be treated the same, then please could I can recommend some reading on Medical Microbiology for example Notes on Medical Bacteriology by Sleigh and Timbury. The confusion often arises from a misunderstanding of secondary infection or more complex pictures in the immunocompromised.
		
Click to expand...

I do know with human cases, parasite and amoebas cause a cyclic reaction by both virus and bacteria.  Unfortunately, I misspelt the word "synonymous" that should have been 'synchronous'.  What I mean by that statement is if the equine, for example, has a strong parasitic load, how does this contribute to the immune system and case of degenerative disease (like osteoarthritis).


----------



## OldNag (6 September 2017)

cobgoblin said:



			Has anyone ever heard of a pony with kissing spines?  All those I've known have been relatively large horses of 16hh plus.
		
Click to expand...

I know a 14.2 diagnosed with KS.


----------



## ester (6 September 2017)

I too know of some 14.2s, of course the smaller they get often the less inclined people are to spend any money on them/more likely to be written off as never suitable for a child so it's hard to draw much of a conclusion.


----------



## daffy44 (6 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			Thank you!  I believe there is so much to learn in regard to backing a horse depending on age.  Have you ever heard of horses that are supposed to be a prized future Grand Prix first going *under saddle* around age 5?  I have understood this to be controversial at times because of the younger horse classes and benefits to both rider/owner, not necessarily the horse.  

I'm also concerned about the impact (-) Vitamin D from sunlight (even on a cloudy day) could have on bone development in young horses, also to the immune system due to most sporthorses being kept indoors.  What are your feeling about that?
		
Click to expand...

Ha ha!  Yes, mine, my GP mare was backed at the begining of her 5yr old year.

I think things are changing, so I dont think most sport horses are kept indoors anymore.


----------



## daffy44 (6 September 2017)

Slightlyconfused said:



			I also think there are a lot more people these days who do not know how to work a horse properly. You can go have lessons, get a horse, chuck a gadget on it and get it to "look" like all those pretty horses with no knowledge of what you are actually doing to your horses body.
		
Click to expand...

Sadly I think this is very true.


----------



## tristar (6 September 2017)

there are horse being backed 2 to 3 years old and shown as 3 yr olds under saddle  and on the bit

i think all youngsters should be out with shelters , foals to 4 yrs, and all comp horses should go out for 8 hours a days.

young horses play and move around all the time, try to kill each other enjoy mental stimulation, how to correlate exposure to sunlight with freedom to move is fascinating, in relation to bone formation and future soundness i feel they go hand in hand, regular bursts of spontainious galloping bears no relation to working under saddle, especially if demands are made to assume an outline prematurely.

unnatural life styles in depressing confinement contain an element of frustration and stress which could depress the immune system.

its a well known thing that bone unsoundnesses in animals  can be inherited and can be bred out, along with the tendancy to same, soundness is everything in a horse


----------



## JFTDWS (6 September 2017)

marieshorses said:



			I really would like to ask more questions here, but feel that I've annoyed some of the members in this forum.  If you're open to engaging more on this topic--as it relates to the immune system of equines--could I possibly ask your opinion to further my knowledge before heading into the actual research?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not annoyed - though I'm slightly concerned by some of your statements.  If you want to do some basic, preliminary investigations into some aspect of the perception of KS in horse owners, you would be better to design a survey that will give you whatever qualitative information you want, and useful, comparable quantitative data.  And as ycbm points out, if you plan on using the information you gather on this thread in any academic or commercial context, you really are ethically obliged to disclose that.  

If you just want to chat and discuss these things for curiosity's sake, that's entirely different.  People will still pull you up on misusing words like synonymous though!

Which aspect of it would you like an opinion on?  80% of horses have KS?  I doubt it, and if it's true, I would conclude that it's not hugely meaningful.  Could concurrent infections influence the pathology, outcome or prevalence of OA, KS or similar conditions?  Perhaps.  I wouldn't like to say no, certainly.


----------



## amandaco2 (6 September 2017)

I am of the opinion that horses benefit from being left until 4 or 5 until ridden work starts, based on growth plate maturity.
Mine have all been backed at 4 or five and been very sound horses.
1 has been lame first time ever, aged 11,  due to hoof imbalance and resulting soft tissue changes. Her back was sore from holding herself compensating so as a full work up her back was xrayed and absolutely fine.
Mine all live out, except in very wet winters when they come in for 10-12hrs day.
I also believe a shoe break of a few months per year is a good idea, ideally keeping them unshod all year...do accept some owners circumstances+horses sensitivity wont allow this, same with turn out.....
I think to draw any sort of meaningful conclusion from back x ray data or diagnosis rates you need to be careful about the pool of horses used and numbers of......


----------



## GoldenWillow (6 September 2017)

I had a 14.2hh cob x rayed as vet was convinced he had ks. X rays were clear as were his hock x rays.


----------

