# Best horse and hound article ever!



## Darlabean (3 December 2017)

&#8220;Owners continue to overfeed, under-exercise and generally pamper their equines like pets&#8221;. Ok, depends on the horses needs, for the scornful, but what a refreshing article!


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## DabDab (3 December 2017)

Those were the words of Mr Owers of WHW, not the article writer.

I get what he was saying and there certainly is an important point to make there, but IME the reasons that horse owners sleepwalk into creating an unhappy/unhealthy horse are rather more complex than these sound bites make out. He accuses the general population of overfeeding and underworking in one breath and then of over competing horses in the next.....

And as for accusing horse owners of 'treating horses as pets' - well it isn't a great choice of words from an organisation that relies on rehoming the majority of their horses as pets.

An information leaflet or similar to distribute to livery yards and owners describing small tweaks to horse management that can build up to a massive difference in horse happiness and welfare, would perhaps be more useful....?


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## cauda equina (3 December 2017)

I was put off by his apparent disapproval of owners who favour no bits or shoes.
What's so wrong with that, assuming the horse is comfortable without?
 Horses were not designed to wear bits or shoes


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## ycbm (3 December 2017)

cauda equina said:



			I was put off by his apparent disapproval of owners who favour no bits or shoes.
What's so wrong with that, assuming the horse is comfortable without?
 Horses were not designed to wear bits or shoes
		
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So was I. And I have two pet ponies and two pet cats. They are happy, healthy animals, so what is wrong with that?


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## Flicker (3 December 2017)

I kind of get where he&#8217;s coming from in relation to the over-feeding, over-rugging  and under-exercising issue.  I am on a big livery yard and I would say that 75% of the horses on that yard are exercised 2 days a week or less, and that exercise is far from strenuous!  I also see those same horses in all manner of heavy rugs.  On the whole, the owners tend to be first time owners, who also seem to have under-estimated the amount of time required to keep horses, especially on DIY.  

However, the sentiment could perhaps have been better phrased and I can&#8217;t help thinking that WHW could expend its energies more productively in an education exercise, rather than criticism.  Perhaps an education campaign run in partnership with riding schools and livery yards about exactly what owning a horse entails and the level of commitment and dedication.  Plus, as DabDab suggests, an information leaflet about keeping them healthy.


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## Cortez (3 December 2017)

Well done to Mr Owers for stating the very obvious modern problem of keeping horses as pets. Cruelty comes in many forms, you don't have to starve or beat a horse to be mistreating it.


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## DabDab (3 December 2017)

Cortez said:



			Well done to Mr Owers for stating the very obvious modern problem of keeping horses as pets. Cruelty comes in many forms, you don't have to starve or beat a horse to be mistreating it.
		
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What exactly are you classing as a 'pet'?
I consider my horses pets - they do not earn their keep, I work to earn money to keep them for my pleasure. They are ridden or otherwise exercised and have nutrition that meets their needs. They are healthy and exhibit no unhappy behaviours - you or mr owers are welcome to come and inspect....?


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## chocolategirl (3 December 2017)

cauda equina said:



			I was put off by his apparent disapproval of owners who favour no bits or shoes.
What's so wrong with that, assuming the horse is comfortable without?
 Horses were not designed to wear bits or shoes
		
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They weren't designed to be ridden under saddle either :-(


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## honetpot (3 December 2017)

Flicker said:



			I kind of get where he&#8217;s coming from in relation to the over-feeding, over-rugging  and under-exercising issue.  I am on a big livery yard and I would say that 75% of the horses on that yard are exercised 2 days a week or less, and that exercise is far from strenuous!  I also see those same horses in all manner of heavy rugs.  On the whole, the owners tend to be first time owners, who also seem to have under-estimated the amount of time required to keep horses, especially on DIY.  

However, the sentiment could perhaps have been better phrased and I can&#8217;t help thinking that WHW could expend its energies more productively in an education exercise, rather than criticism.  Perhaps an education campaign run in partnership with riding schools and livery yards about exactly what owning a horse entails and the level of commitment and dedication.  Plus, as DabDab suggests, an information leaflet about keeping them healthy.
		
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 Over the years, about 30, I have been on five big livery yards, and I can probably only think of five people that actually rode more than twice a week on a regular basis, and the same five people rode for more than an hour. Very few people now have any idea the amount of exercise a horse is capable of doing or needs to maintain a level of fitness to compete, or work hard when needed.
  For me what seems to have changed is that horses live out less, and are rugged almost in some cases all year round, even when the weather is mild.
  Why is a rug a fashion item that has to be changed each season? If you say a horses does not need a rug you are looked on as if you are abusive.
  Then there is the whole feed industry that has spent millions marketing feed that most horses do not need, and has turned out in the long run to be bad for them.
   The worst video I have seen on FB is a small foal, being bathed in a sink, like its a poodle. The amount of people who thought that was cute was extraordinary, they could see nothing wrong. The horse as fashion accessory taken to the next level.


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## Chinchilla (3 December 2017)

Keeping a horse as a pet isn't necessarily cruel. Lots can't be ridden due to injury or age and it would be seriously detrimental to their health and wellbeing were they expected to. I think what he's referring to is mollycoddling them and treating them as fragile when let's face it they are 500kg of beast that evolved to survive on Asian steppes... However, you couldn't throw most horses out in Mongolia and not expect them to suffer! 

 Good ownership isn't about competing lots, about following a particular method; it's about doing what's right for your individual animal. For instance the remark on those with barefoot /bitless horses irked me a bit...not every horse likes a bit. Not every horse likes bitless. Not every horse is comfortable without shoes, not every horse is comfortable with them. And a truly good owner respects that their horse isn't going to neatly conform to their own preferences, and will treat them according to what's best for them: I personally do think some owners anthropomorphise too much...


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## JillA (3 December 2017)

I suspect that view is slightly affected by the number of equines reported to them for being naked and left in fields in winter


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## zaminda (3 December 2017)

The thing which got me was people not listening to vets and farriers. I have had to change farriers twice this year due to damage they have done, and one was recommended by a local vet. I am glad some things have changed, and that includes questioning people and going elsewhere if you aren't happy.


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## WandaMare (3 December 2017)

Without being overly defensive or scrutinising his choice of words, I think the key messages he puts over are probably right. There is too much laminitis still, particularly with all the new information and knowledge we have about the disease which could be used to prevent it. I know because I did it myself when I was new to horse ownership, my pony got laminitis and I felt terrible about it. I have learnt loads since from magazines and on this forum and I think all he was saying is that we need to keep spreading this message to prevent obesity in our horses. Personally I believe part of the problem is due to over commercialisation of the horse supplies market where we are inundated with lovely new rug designs, a massive choice of different feeds and also the feeling that if we don't provide our horses with these lovely things, they are somehow missing out.

An organisation such as WHW should be at the centre of distributing these messages which is what I think this speech is aiming to do. Yes he used the words pets in a slightly negative context and made a few other remarks which people are going to react to, but overall I'm glad that someone is speaking out about laminitis and the horrible suffering it causes.

My horses are pets by the way, and I'm very proud of that


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## Flicker (3 December 2017)

honetpot said:



			Over the years, about 30, I have been on five big livery yards, and I can probably only think of five people that actually rode more than twice a week on a regular basis, and the same five people rode for more than an hour. Very few people now have any idea the amount of exercise a horse is capable of doing or needs to maintain a level of fitness to compete, or work hard when needed.
  For me what seems to have changed is that horses live out less, and are rugged almost in some cases all year round, even when the weather is mild.
  Why is a rug a fashion item that has to be changed each season? If you say a horses does not need a rug you are looked on as if you are abusive.
  Then there is the whole feed industry that has spent millions marketing feed that most horses do not need, and has turned out in the long run to be bad for them.
   The worst video I have seen on FB is a small foal, being bathed in a sink, like its a poodle. The amount of people who thought that was cute was extraordinary, they could see nothing wrong. The horse as fashion accessory taken to the next level.
		
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Thats dreadful.  What start in life is that foal getting??

Im all for seeing a horse as a pet, mine are as much part of the family as our cats.  But, as a conscientious pet owner, I work around the needs of my animals not the other way round.

Like you, I worry about rugs and feed.  The number of supplements in our feed room is eye opening.  Many are for gut health and calming properties - both of which point to something amiss with the horses routines.  

And, in relation to rugs... I ride for a friend whose horse is on full livery on a local yard.  On a number of occasions I have arrived to ride to find her sweating under a heavy rug.  The yard staff rug for the night at around 4pm so they can finish at 5.  Another example of shoehorning our horses welfare around our needs.  Another good friend of mine worked on a stud / dealer / producers yard in the 70s.  Their evening shift finished at 8pm with a final skip and hay / rug check.  The morning shift then started at 5am.  

If our livery yards cant commit to that level of cover for stabled horses, as owners we need to be prepared to top up the time ourselves.  My horse is on part livery but I am up every night to ride, groom, check feet, and also to check hay and water and rugs.  I know owners who havent been up literally for weeks.


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## Wagtail (3 December 2017)

My horse is a pet, but she is regularly exercised, I have a trainer and weekly lessons (working towards competing in dressage). She is fed just hay and a non mollassed, non cereal feed, she has daily turnout and grooming. The fact that I view her first as a pet does not mean she is maltreated. I find this quite ridiculous.


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## tallyho! (3 December 2017)

It's not the best article I've ever read. It touches on some salient points but is hypocritical - poorly researched and hard to take seriously in all honesty.

The only bit in there worth quoting in the "over-rugging" because seeing how many fat cobs are walking around in rugs, I'm inclined to agree. There are more constructive ways to to explain how rugging works and has been done well before.

In a nutshell, unless it's old, decrepit or a fully clipped racer or eventer, keep the rug in the bag.


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## pennyturner (3 December 2017)

There was some old footage from 1900 of busy London streets in the Daily Fail this week.  I found myself studying the condition of the carriage horses.  With the exception of a couple of very well-to-do carriage horses who were well covered and clearly didn't do much work, most of the working horses (fit and well) were in 'hard' condition, which most these days would call out as too thin because they don't know any better. 

I agree with honeypot.  Most don't have any idea how much work a horse is capable of.


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## stencilface (3 December 2017)

tallyho! said:



			In a nutshell, unless it's old, decrepit or a fully clipped racer or eventer, keep the rug in the bag.
		
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I'd like to add it if it's grey to that list! 

I've got one WHW pony now, just starting in roads aged 5 into a ridden career. We have just rehomed our mule from them  (through them, they know about It!) He potentially will be a pet his whole life.


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## JFTDWS (3 December 2017)

I basically agree with the principle of what (I think) he's saying.  That said, I don't think it's hugely well worded or particularly appropriate given his position - there is far too much room for interpretation, and misinterpretation - the "pet" comment, in context, is clearly a reference to over-feeding and under-exercising, not the concept of keeping a non-working animal.  I do think the comment about blaming behaviours on the horse is very relevant though.

The trouble is, it's all very well saying it would be better to educate than criticise.  That's great - but how many articles have been published doing just that?  How many years have all the major charities been banging on about the obesity crisis and putting out condition scoring leaflets?  And still we are in the middle of an equine obesity crisis, because people don't believe it applies to them.  People are incredibly good at cognitive dissonance - believing contradictory things at the same time - like "fat horses are a welfare issue" and "my horse isn't the problem, he enjoys his lickits and is just a nice round cob".  People ignore things which do not fit their own bias, and they fail to recognise obesity in their own animals (and children - and selves).  It is a huge problem, which cannot be tackled by education alone - because people are not always capable of taking on that information and applying it to their own animals.




zaminda said:



			The thing which got me was people not listening to vets and farriers. I have had to change farriers twice this year due to damage they have done, and one was recommended by a local vet. I am glad some things have changed, and that includes questioning people and going elsewhere if you aren't happy.
		
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I too have a horse who is recovering from the "efforts" of two highly recommended farriers.  I say this a lot, but expert advice is only meaningful when the expert is actually good at their job.  And, even then, people make mistakes...  Questioning your experts is a good thing - within reason.


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## Equi (3 December 2017)

I always giggle at these threads. I have both sides of the abusive owner covered. One is rugged up with a fashionable new one bought this season, fed on mix with this and that in it, shoe all round and ridden approx 4 times a week an hour at a time and not very hard as in not eventing but a decent scooping or hour long hack (but said Horse is also near 20) then out 24/7 in summer getting fat and having a less amount of work then. 

Then I have my Home herd of minis who are all out living wild 24/7 with no feed and rarely looked at bar daily checks and appointments in winter - in summer usually in being conditioned to show and clipped and rugged. By conditioned I mean worked and toned up, not fed up - but fed something rich in linseed and protein to add some shine and life in the ring. 

Funny though they all seem happy and relaxed, rather than abused.


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## WandaMare (3 December 2017)

In response to JFTD, I agree education doesn't seem to be making enough impact, so what can people who care about horses do instead? Reporting severe cases to charities of course, but what else is there...maybe feed companies and rug companies should be made to show pictures of laminitic horses on their labels...taking a similar line to cigarette packet labelling...instead of beautiful condition animals on their packaging..

Is so difficult and expensive to change an established culture and this is what these horse charities are facing with the obesity crisis.


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## Cortez (3 December 2017)

WandaMare said:



			In response to JFTD, I agree education doesn't seem to be making enough impact, so what can people who care about horses do instead? Reporting severe cases to charities of course, but what else is there...maybe feed companies and rug companies should be made to show pictures of laminitic horses on their labels...taking a similar line to cigarette packet labelling...instead of beautiful condition animals on their packaging..

Is so difficult and expensive to change an established culture and this is what these horse charities are facing with the obesity crisis.
		
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I think you are right about the horse "culture". Being on this forum is often bemusing, I live in Ireland where horses are kept in a rather more robust fashion than seems to be the case in your part of the world, and I also spend a lot of my horse work time in Spain where things are different again. 

People are taking umbrage at the "pet" thing, but I think that is really at the root of the problem. I have pets too, they are spoiled, live in the house, and are kept purely for their companionship: they are not horses (and incidentally they are not fat - can't understand fat dogs/cats either). The horses live outside, work for a living and are not kept for their "cuteness" value. They are, really, agricultural animals to me. Doesn't mean I'm not fond of them (I'm fond of the cow too), but they are not there for cuddles.


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## NinjaPony (3 December 2017)

Whoops, better tell my 'pet' pony he needs to start earning his keep, and that his nice warm rugs will be removed.....
Or I could just continue to look after him without expecting anything of him as I have done since he was retired aged 10 and make sure he wants for nothing, without fussing about anyone else's opinion! 
He is rugged, weight kept down using a muzzle/not much feed, and happy as anything. I don't think there needs to be a dichotomy between 'pet' horses and 'working' horses. Both my ponies are both of those things-they will work while they can and are happy to, but they are more than just working animals to me, and if they can't be ridden, will continue to receive the same level of care and attention. My little retired one also happens to be very cute, as an added bonus.


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## WandaMare (3 December 2017)

NinjaPony said:



			Whoops, better tell my 'pet' pony he needs to start earning his keep, and that his nice warm rugs will be removed.....
Or I could just continue to look after him without expecting anything of him as I have done since he was retired aged 10 and make sure he wants for nothing, without fussing about anyone else's opinion! 
He is rugged, weight kept down using a muzzle/not much feed, and happy as anything. I don't think there needs to be a dichotomy between 'pet' horses and 'working' horses. Both my ponies are both of those things-they will work while they can and are happy to, but they are more than just working animals to me, and if they can't be ridden, will continue to receive the same level of care and attention. My little retired one also happens to be very cute, as an added bonus.
		
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You're an experienced horse owner so you don't need to fuss about anyone's opinion. 

I don't think the article was criticising all people who own horses as pets, the context was more about overfeeding and overrugging which I would guess is more of a risk within the category of people who keep ponies as pets. Horses who have been purchased to do a serious job are more likely to be doing a significant amount of exercise (although I am not saying that people who buy horses as pets don't do much exercise, of course lots of them do).

I'm glad the article has raised a bit of controversy anyway, its even better for publicity!


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## DabDab (3 December 2017)

Cortez said:



			I think you are right about the horse "culture". Being on this forum is often bemusing, I live in Ireland where horses are kept in a rather more robust fashion than seems to be the case in your part of the world, and I also spend a lot of my horse work time in Spain where things are different again. 

People are taking umbrage at the "pet" thing, but I think that is really at the root of the problem. I have pets too, they are spoiled, live in the house, and are kept purely for their companionship: they are not horses (and incidentally they are not fat - can't understand fat dogs/cats either). The horses live outside, work for a living and are not kept for their "cuteness" value. They are, really, agricultural animals to me. Doesn't mean I'm not fond of them (I'm fond of the cow too), but they are not there for cuddles.
		
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I have owned/kept many horses that were for the purpose of making money. I now keep horses with no intention of them earning a living. My brain did not fall out in between owning those two categories and render me incapable of basic horsemanship. 

The problem is largely inexperience and lack of knowledge of what is normal and healthy, combined (as JFTD pointed out), with those who are blind because they do not want to see.

The culture on an individual livery yard has a lot to do with it - often you will find yards where almost every horse is 'unsound' in either mind or body, and then other yards where the opposite is true, despite the fact that both contain mainly DIY liveries. 

If organisations such as WHW want to improve the situation then they have to get inside the livery yard cultures. The amount you can do from the outside is exceptionally limited.

Sweeping generalisations and insults will very rarely cause people to change their behaviour - that's basic human psychology that I would expect most adults to have grasped.


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## NinjaPony (3 December 2017)

I think it's also with pointing out that overfeeding/overrugging is not a problem exclusive to inexperienced owners-some of the worst cases I've found of that have been on professional showing yards.. who are not keeping horses as pets!


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## Elf On A Shelf (3 December 2017)

NinjaPony said:



			I think it's also with pointing out that overfeeding/overrugging is not a problem exclusive to inexperienced owners-some of the worst cases I've found of that have been on professional showing yards.. who are not keeping horses as pets!
		
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Ah but showing is in a league of its own! They don't abide by anyone else's rules! Just their own!


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## honetpot (3 December 2017)

Pony as a pet-poodle
https://www.facebook.com/horseschannel/videos/1621863731222645/


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## Luci07 (3 December 2017)

No one likes criticism. Look at the responses from individuals who pick on certain elements (bitless/barefoot etc). I too brindle at some of the comments "pet" got to me. I like to compete and  train. I have sold on horses I didn't click with or whom couldn't do what I wanted to do. I have kept 2 horses in full retirement till they had to be PTS aged 27 and 31 respectively. I have had my heart broken at losing the horse of a lifetime to Uvietis aged 7. Does this mean they are/were pets? I enjoy he the challenging aspects of  horsecare and the fact that you just don't stop learning but not everyone does.


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## JFTDWS (3 December 2017)

WandaMare said:



			In response to JFTD, I agree education doesn't seem to be making enough impact, so what can people who care about horses do instead?
		
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If I knew that, I'd probably be doing something useful with my time instead of bickering on here   I raise the point that it isn't enough to educate, in response to previous suggestions that WHW would be better to put out an informative leaflet.  I think that perspective is naive - WHW have done informative leaflets to death, and will continue to do so, I'm sure.  No amount of quiet provision of information will challenge some of the endemic issues in the equine industry - and I'm not really talking about owners.  I think this speech was aimed more at encouraging those involved in welfare professionally to challenge certain misconceptions in themselves, and in those around them, than at making the average horse owner feel bad.

I think, at our level, all you can do is treat your own horses as well as you can (in accordance with science, common sense and all those lacking areas- while being open to new information too), and when you're in a position to offer advice, you do so accurately, clearly and tactfully - which is easier said than done.  The fact that people are challenged on this forum - although not often tactfully - is a good thing for changing at least some perspectives (most folk I know on here, myself included, have been educated by being here).  I wouldn't underestimate the value of that.  




			maybe feed companies and rug companies should be made to show pictures of laminitic horses on their labels...taking a similar line to cigarette packet labelling...instead of beautiful condition animals on their packaging..
		
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Interesting idea.  I think for that to happen, there would need to be widespread (beyond this forum, across the entire industry - especially the veterinary industry) acknowledgement that there is actually a problem with sugary feeds and how they are marketed.  Much like smoking, that may take a while...  

But actually, I do think that's part of what was said in this speech - being open to scientific revelations that do not sit easily with the received wisdom.  If everyone in the industry (as opposed to owners at grass roots level) accepted new information _ as it becomes supported by scientific data _ (or indeed, doesn't), the quality and uniformity of advice given to the owners themselves would be far greater.  The trouble, currently, is that not all vets, farriers, physios, instructors, YOs (or any other trusted equine "professional") agree that commercial feeds (/over-rugging / obesity) are a problem (or perhaps they are not prepared to stick their necks on the line and say that to their owners).


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## Luci07 (3 December 2017)

I am picking up your comment about scientific proof. I did believe everything I read on supplements/feed etc etc and then found to my horror, these are not regulated...and proven. (Vast majority anyway).


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## JFTDWS (3 December 2017)

Luci07 said:



			I am picking up your comment about scientific proof. I did believe everything I read on supplements/feed etc etc and then found to my horror, these are not regulated...and proven. (Vast majority anyway).
		
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It is disappointing that companies - selling supplements, feeds and other products - can get away with claims which are wildly inaccurate.  That's certainly one aspect of the industry which needs to be drawn into line, I think.


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## fburton (3 December 2017)

Well said, JFTD. (Post #30)


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## eahotson (3 December 2017)

ycbm said:



			So was I. And I have two pet ponies and two pet cats. They are happy, healthy animals, so what is wrong with that?
		
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Nothing is wrong with that.


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## Leo Walker (3 December 2017)

JFTD said:



			But actually, I do think that's part of what was said in this speech - being open to scientific revelations that do not sit easily with the received wisdom.  If everyone in the industry (as opposed to owners at grass roots level) accepted new information _ as it becomes supported by scientific data _ (or indeed, doesn't), the quality and uniformity of advice given to the owners themselves would be far greater.  The trouble, currently, is that not all vets, farriers, physios, instructors, YOs (or any other trusted equine "professional") agree that commercial feeds (/over-rugging / obesity) are a problem (or perhaps they are not prepared to stick their necks on the line and say that to their owners).
		
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This! There is so little scientific data that you have to really look for it in order to be able to make an informed opinion. The majority of people dont want to read research or spend hours looking into things. They want to get out and enjoy their horses so they take advice from people they trust, YOs/vets/farriers etc.

Even something as simple as trying to formulate a diet for your horse is nearly impossible if you dont know better. Try and find out the ingredients and composition of Spillers feeds. Its nearly impossible. Anyone would think they didnt want you to know for some reason. And the recommendations are ludicrous!

Spillers Speedy Mash Fibre is described as:

_Fast soaking fibre blend for all horses and ponies including those prone to laminitis._

The recommended feeding rate for a 500kg horse in light work is *3kgs dry weight per day alongside ad lib forage *. 

It is no wonder horses are fat!


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## DabDab (3 December 2017)

I've been knocking around horse yards since I was knee high to a grasshopper and I have honestly never seen any educational material from WHW or any other organisation with the exception of some local vet practices and the laminitis trust, so I don't think they're having much of an impact TBH.

If you look at how hard regulation of the human food market has been I don't think there is much mileage in lobbying for changes in the equine food market (as much as it would be of massive potential benefit), but you can endorse celebrity equestrians to get messages out. If Carl Hester said he's always careful not to over rug his horses for example, then you might get a few more people pricking up their ears. Or they could run social media campaigns, club in with demos, get out and do information/consultation days on big livery yards.....lots of stuff that would be more positive than a badly worded speech containing contradictory information (be open to new ideas and research....just as long as the new information isn't encouraging barefoot horses....)


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## JFTDWS (3 December 2017)

DabDab said:



			I've been knocking around horse yards since I was knee high to a grasshopper and I have honestly never seen any educational material from WHW or any other organisation with the exception of some local vet practices and the laminitis trust, so I don't think they're having much of an impact TBH.
		
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You've never seen their stalls at the big equestrian events, or seen any of their promotional material about horse care issues?  Even back when they were the ILPH?

I'm genuinely surprised by that.


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## ManBearPig (3 December 2017)

Ah but if you have a morbidly obese ID, you can just give it a mohawk and win Maxi Cob of the Year...

People just don't seem to recognise fat horses when they see them these days because so many are overweight it has become the norm. Overfeeding is just as neglectful as underfeeding and should be treated as such by welfare organisations.

I think the "pet" thing was a bit of a misnomer, but I think there is a big problem with owners anthropomorphising horses to the detriment of the horses' health; people just don't realise that horses don't need three meals a day, snuggly rugs because the owner is wearing a jacket, stabled when it's drizzly outside etc.


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## DabDab (3 December 2017)

JFTD said:



			You've never seen their stalls at the big equestrian events, or seen any of their promotional material about horse care issues?  Even back when they were the ILPH?

I'm genuinely surprised by that.
		
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Yes I've seen stalls, but I just walk on by, like 95% of other people. Never consciously seen any material no.


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## honetpot (3 December 2017)

I think the use of the word pet was perhaps a poor one, most of the horses today do not work for a living, in the sense that if they do not make someone somewhere money they would not be kept, therefore they are kept as a hobby/interest.

  When I was young if you owned a horse it was to do job, ie pull the rag and bone man's cart, race horse, showjumper. To own a horse you had to be seriously wealthy and they were kept by mainly professional horseman or their employees, who in turn had learnt skill s from another professional horseman.
  Now anyone can go on FB and buy something for £150, the only money that is made is by selling stuff, to the uniformed.
Most of the rugs are made in China, come in containers to be sold at vast profit, why would someone not want to sell someone a rug?
  The feed is cheap basics, processed and packages so it warrants the vast mark up. Tell someone just feed hay and straw and they look at you as if you are mad.
   A feed company sponsors a rider who does well, so their horse must need that feed. I wander round feed shops just to see whats there.
It amazes me how the companies have adapted to sell cheap roughage, straw, in every variety flavour, laminitic, senior, etc, and sell it at a huge profit. Hoof Kind, it makes me wince, and someone then endorses it, so its OK.
  Someone with a high profile who can afford to thumb their noses at the feed companies need to promote this, and twitter and Facebook the hell out of it. Just can not think who.


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## YorksG (3 December 2017)

Perhaps if WHW were to canvass the horse owning public at large, or even on here, for owners who have managed to keep their horses into healthy old age (say 25) and ask them for a break down of how they manage their horses, they could then publish "case studies" for new owners to think about. There will be descrpancies, of course, but my guess is there will be more common ground than not and it could be a valuable resource.


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## Sukistokes2 (3 December 2017)

No matter what you do with horses and how you do it, there will always be some horsey person who thinks your doing it wrong and their doing better. Most of us just muck along with our big pets and do our best.


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## DabDab (3 December 2017)

YorksG said:



			Perhaps if WHW were to canvass the horse owning public at large, or even on here, for owners who have managed to keep their horses into healthy old age (say 25) and ask them for a break down of how they manage their horses, they could then publish "case studies" for new owners to think about. There will be descrpancies, of course, but my guess is there will be more common ground than not and it could be a valuable resource.
		
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That's an interesting idea - if done well I can imagine that being really effective


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## JFTDWS (3 December 2017)

DabDab said:



			Yes I've seen stalls, but I just walk on by, like 95% of other people. Never consciously seen any material no.
		
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Well to be fair, there isn't anything they can do about people not engaging with the material available (and it is available - on the internet, at their stalls, and hard copies are available).  Sending paper copies to every yard in the country is impractically expensive in the internet age, given that most folk will fail to engage with them too...


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## DabDab (3 December 2017)

JFTD said:



			Well to be fair, there isn't anything they can do about people not engaging with the material available (and it is available - on the internet, at their stalls, and hard copies are available).  Sending paper copies to every yard in the country is impractically expensive in the internet age, given that most folk will fail to engage with them too...
		
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That's what these funny marketing peeps are for - on the flip side I can tell you the saddle and feed brand endorsed by a whole variety of top riders, and that's information I neither need nor have been deliberately exposed to


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## ihatework (3 December 2017)

It&#8217;s an interesting article and I think the fundamental message is all too true, if not well worded.

I don&#8217;t have an issue with horses being pets at all, mine are for the most part.

But I completely agree with this culture shift of over pampering horses. I&#8217;m sure to a certain degree I&#8217;m guilty of that myself. The problem is human nature. &#8216;We&#8217; love our horses and in general want to do the best we can for them. So in our misguided attempt to do so we humanise them and convince ourselves our actions are justified. 

It is quite a sad state of affairs really and killing with kindness certainly applies.

Like I say I&#8217;m probably just as much to blame as many others but being more aware at least helps some positive choices to be made where possible


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## JFTDWS (3 December 2017)

DabDab said:



			That's what these funny marketing peeps are for - on the flip side I can tell you the saddle and feed brand endorsed by a whole variety of top riders, and that's information I neither need nor have been deliberately exposed to
		
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Well I'm aware of that - although personally I have no idea which rider is involved with which brands, for the most part and certainly not in any positive manner.  Doesn't register, as I don't actually think top riders are necessarily the best indicator of welfare standards, as evidenced at HOYS...  

I remain really surprised that you haven't seen stuff from WHW though...  They're all over my social media now, and I've seen loads of stuff over the last 20 years.  Perhaps it's regional, or perhaps it's something else, but it does surprise me.


oh and the paper leaflets thing was suggested upthread - I didn't suggest it as a sensible alternative...


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## DabDab (3 December 2017)

*shrugs* maybe because I'm not on facebook?

Indulge me, share a recent WHW piece of info.

I don't think top competitors are the best indicator either, but still, the information is put out in such a way that it's found its way into my brain.


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## Sussexbythesea (3 December 2017)

Im not convinced about the article. If that was the one online? I deliberately didnt read it at first because of the quote shown on FB. I knew it would be sanctimonious and condescending to the ordinary horse owner. Having since read it due to this thread I wasnt wrong. Obviously the quotes could have been taken out of context but if you want to change mindsets turning off a large proportion of readers  is not the way to go about it. 

I dont know who other people hang out with but the majority of people I know spend a good deal of time struggling with weight management and invest a lot of effort, time and money trying to prevent their horses becoming overweight. I expect more horses die from blown tendons, broken limbs, colic etc. In the top level equestrian sports than do of obesity. All the the lami cases Ive seen have been due to Cushings. 

If you work in the charity animal welfare sector youre going to get a skewed view of things as you generally only see where things have gone wrong. I dont think it is reflective of the majority of horse-owners.


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## JFTDWS (3 December 2017)

DabDab said:



			*shrugs* maybe because I'm not on facebook?

Indulge me, share a recent WHW piece of info.

I don't think top competitors are the best indicator either, but still, the information is put out in such a way that it's found its way into my brain.
		
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Well that's where I see stuff now, but 20 years ago, I saw ILPH stuff all over the place.  Maybe it's a cognitive bias of some kind - as I say, I couldn't say which riders are involved with different brands because I'm just not interested in that sort of thing.  I do, however, interact with figures, statistics, health and disease data and infographics, because they mean something to me...

This is an ongoing campaign about ensuring that owners have an end of life plan, so that horses can be put down when required (even if the owner is away / unavailable), the right decision at the right time, complying with passport law etc.  This is just the most recent one I recall seeing - I'm not obsessed with killing horses or anything!


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## DabDab (3 December 2017)

Thanks, that's interesting.

I'm not convinced it's cognitive bias, and I'm not sure you would if you met me either - I'm a manufacturing engineer by trade who lives largely as a hippy in the forest with a bonkers array of solar panels and almost zero interest in material goods. 

I was completely agreeing with your point of view at the beginning of the thread - in as much as my first comment was that it was an important topic but his wording was pants.

But if you prefer - yes, their educational media is really effective (so surely there should be no problem), he worded his little speech brilliantly (and people saying that his choice of words is crap must be the idiot pet owners he speaks of), and there is absolutely nothing else positive that could be done to influence people.

You seem to have taken exception to my leaflet to yard owners suggestion at the beginning of the thread - I'm naive and not at all marketing savvy, so it was not in any way an informed suggestion.


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## honetpot (3 December 2017)

Sussexbythesea said:



			I&#8217;m not convinced about the article. If that was the one online? I deliberately didn&#8217;t read it at first because of the quote shown on FB. I knew it would be sanctimonious and condescending to the ordinary horse owner. Having since read it due to this thread I wasn&#8217;t wrong. Obviously the quotes could have been taken out of context but if you want to change mindsets turning off a large proportion of readers  is not the way to go about it. 

I don&#8217;t know who other people hang out with but the majority of people I know spend a good deal of time struggling with weight management and invest a lot of effort, time and money trying to prevent their horses becoming overweight. I expect more horses die from blown tendons, broken limbs, colic etc. In the top level equestrian sports than do of obesity. All the the lami cases I&#8217;ve seen have been due to Cushings. 

If you work in the charity animal welfare sector you&#8217;re going to get a skewed view of things as you generally only see where things have gone wrong. I don&#8217;t think it is reflective of the majority of horse-owners.
		
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  I think that the problem , that people are effort, time and money and not really understanding the cause of horse obesity. It actually costs practically nothing to keep a horse slimmer.
  I think the horse uses 94% of its energy keeping warm, our winters are now shorter and milder  and yet when I did a quick google the feed companies are pushing winter feeds when most, unless are working horses in a riding school need only forage.

 In my quick google I found this which if we all printed a couple off copies off and put on livery yards may lead to some understanding. I have saved it and every time someone posts, does my horse look thin, on FB this is what they will get.
https://www.bluecross.org.uk/sites/default/files/downloads/fat-horse-slim.pdf


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## Batgirl (3 December 2017)

I've not read it but over rugging drives me wild.  I get questioned every winter when I have my clipped, hot horse in a 100g and occasionally 200g in the bitterest of temperatures and everyone is say 'oh but I like blah blah horse to be snuggly'.  The horror on peoples faces when I turned up to the yard aftre having mine turned out this morning before dressage, you know, because it it better for him, because shock of all shocks I would have to clean him....


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## splashgirl45 (3 December 2017)

cauda equina said:



			I was put off by his apparent disapproval of owners who favour no bits or shoes.
What's so wrong with that, assuming the horse is comfortable without?
 Horses were not designed to wear bits or shoes
		
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horses were  not designed to carry us either !!!!


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## DabDab (3 December 2017)

honetpot said:



			In my quick google I found this which if we all printed a couple off copies off and put on livery yards may lead to some understanding. I have saved it and every time someone posts, does my horse look thin, on FB this is what they will get.
https://www.bluecross.org.uk/sites/default/files/downloads/fat-horse-slim.pdf

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That's a fab document!


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## splashgirl45 (3 December 2017)

DabDab said:



			That's a fab document!
		
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thats really good,  plenty of easy to understand info...


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## SEL (3 December 2017)

Batgirl said:



			I've not read it but over rugging drives me wild.  I get questioned every winter when I have my clipped, hot horse in a 100g and occasionally 200g in the bitterest of temperatures and everyone is say 'oh but I like blah blah horse to be snuggly'.  The horror on peoples faces when I turned up to the yard aftre having mine turned out this morning before dressage, you know, because it it better for him, because shock of all shocks I would have to clean him....
		
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I own the only unrugged horse on our yard! He is very much a pet so no need to keep clean, but it does entertain me how twitchy people get when he rolls into the yard plastered in mud.


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## Sussexbythesea (3 December 2017)

honetpot said:



			I think that the problem , that people are effort, time and money and not really understanding the cause of horse obesity. It actually costs practically nothing to keep a horse slimmer.
  I think the horse uses 94% of its energy keeping warm, our winters are now shorter and milder  and yet when I did a quick google the feed companies are pushing winter feeds when most, unless are working horses in a riding school need only forage.

 In my quick google I found this which if we all printed a couple off copies off and put on livery yards may lead to some understanding. I have saved it and every time someone posts, does my horse look thin, on FB this is what they will get.
https://www.bluecross.org.uk/sites/default/files/downloads/fat-horse-slim.pdf

Click to expand...

Ive read that thanks several years ago. It means jack. Most people will never read it because a) they dont think it applies to them b) its too long and many people will be put off by its length. Hardly anyone will read a 28 page document. If it really is that simple why does it take 28 pages to explain it? 

Frankly Id hardly be bothered to read it and Ive got a BSc and an MSc.


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## ycbm (3 December 2017)

splashgirl45 said:



			horses were  not designed to carry us either !!!!
		
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Yes, but you can ride without bits and shoes, but you can't ride without  .....  errrr ....   riding?


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## JFTDWS (3 December 2017)

DabDab said:



			But if you prefer - yes, their educational media is really effective (so surely there should be no problem), he worded his little speech brilliantly (and people saying that his choice of words is crap must be the idiot pet owners he speaks of), and there is absolutely nothing else positive that could be done to influence people.

You seem to have taken exception to my leaflet to yard owners suggestion at the beginning of the thread - I'm naive and not at all marketing savvy, so it was not in any way an informed suggestion.
		
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I'm not sure why you're taking this so personally.  I do think your comment that leaflets would be better wasn't very sensible - given that by your own admission, you walk past the stands where such leaflets are available.  I really don't know whether you're well versed in marketing or not - I'm certainly not, but I am aware of how much WHW (and the Blue Cross and the BHS welfare and so many others) do.  

I don't think he worded his speech well - I said that in my first comment on this thread.  I don't particularly agree with how it's being taken, and I think there is a lot in there which is worthwhile, but that is overshadowed by people's reactions to poorly worded concepts like "pampered pets".  And that means it's poorly worded.  As I said.

I also think their educational material is variable - like most information sources, some are more succinct, some more comprehensive and some are more evidence-based than others.  But they do exist and they do promote them in various forms - just as the other welfare organisations do.  Despite this there is still a huge problem, which needs to be addressed in manners which go beyond publishing a few more leaflets.  That is literally all I'm saying here.


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## Leo Walker (3 December 2017)

honetpot said:



			I think that the problem , that people are effort, time and money and not really understanding the cause of horse obesity. It actually costs practically nothing to keep a horse slimmer.
  I think the horse uses 94% of its energy keeping warm, our winters are now shorter and milder  and yet when I did a quick google the feed companies are pushing winter feeds when most, unless are working horses in a riding school need only forage.
		
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I was in the feed shop last week. They had just had a delivery. There was one bag of plain grass chaff and 25 bags of Winter Mash. I did mention it while we were in the warehouse looking for the solitary bag of grass chaff, and apparently people go mad for it every winter. They openly describe it as

_Contains a blend of oils to provide additional calories and promote a healthy, glossy coat, contains echinacea to support immune function and a blend of fennel and mint to support digestive function._

And the picture is very appealing to! Cold horses being warmed by the health giving Winter Mash. How lovely! You can see why people who want to do the right thing buy it.


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## DabDab (3 December 2017)

I'm not taking it personally at all, you just kept picking up on my comments and I wasn't sure why - I actually merrily agreed with you the first couple of times until I realised that you were just having a dig at my leaflet comment (cos I'm a bit dense). I made a generic point about getting inside the livery yard cultures 'tis all.


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## KittenInTheTree (3 December 2017)

Sussexbythesea said:



			If it really is that simple why does it take 28 pages to explain it?
		
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Because a one page document with pictures of each condition score from 0 - 5, with simple phrasing such as "It's clearly starving to death, hurry up and get the effing vet!" (0), and "Stop effing overfeeding your already morbidly obese pony!" (5), would not go down well in today's delicate snowflake society.


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## ycbm (3 December 2017)

Leo Walker said:



			I was in the feed shop last week. They had just had a delivery. There was one bag of plain grass chaff and 25 bags of Winter Mash. I did mention it while we were in the warehouse looking for the solitary bag of grass chaff, and apparently people go mad for it every winter. They openly describe it as

_Contains a blend of oils to provide additional calories and promote a healthy, glossy coat, contains echinacea to support immune function and a blend of fennel and mint to support digestive function._

And the picture is very appealing to! Cold horses being warmed by the health giving Winter Mash. How lovely! You can see why people who want to do the right thing buy it.






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Drives me mad, LW, slick marketing like that to encourage over feeding. Grrr.


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## Sussexbythesea (3 December 2017)

KittenInTheTree said:



			Because a one page document with pictures of each condition score from 0 - 5, with simple phrasing such as "It's clearly starving to death, hurry up and get the effing vet!" (0), and "Stop effing overfeeding your already morbidly obese pony!" (5), would not go down well in today's delicate snowflake society.
		
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Its possible to be succinct without being rude.


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## JFTDWS (3 December 2017)

I wasn't having a dig, honestly (and actually I didn't realise it was you who'd said it until I looked back) - I picked it up initially because I thought it was worth saying they already do that, and have done for years.  You then carried on saying you'd never seen their stuff and you'd rather they did celebrity engagement to get their point across (I think that was your basic argument - that you think that's more effective marketing?).  They may well do that - certainly other charities do as there are comments from Harry Meade etc on the Blue Cross document linked above.   I responded mostly because I am surprised (really - that's not a dig, it's genuine surprise) that horsey people don't see these things, or engage with their stands at events, stumble across their campaigns on the internet or at horsey events etc.  

There's no easy answer, anyway.  I think - as I said before - that changing opinions in industry professionals - from vets to instructors and YOs - is probably the way forward, and I think that's what the WHW conference is about.  I think that is, essentially, getting inside livery yards, just by a different route.  Like LeoWalker, I think feed marketing is far from ideal, and that's a huge problem.  Hard to tackle though - there's no profit in reducing feed use.


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## JFTDWS (3 December 2017)

Sussexbythesea said:



			It&#8217;s possible to be succinct without being rude.
		
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There is the basic BCS chart, which at two pages of mostly photos, is more accessible.  It doesn't really tackle why there is an obesity crisis, or what to do about it though.  I think there is probably scope for a happy medium between the long document (for those who are very interested for whatever reason) and the BCS chart though...  Maybe that exists - I haven't looked.

https://www.bluecross.org.uk/sites/default/files/downloads/1.body-score-chart.pdf


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## GTRJazz (3 December 2017)

Some of the feed firms will support a yard visit to weigh the horses our cob who most people would guess as been over weight was on the top end of normal, my 16h ID who looked a little poor at the time was heavier that a 17h Sports horse, and my Appaloosa X was an ideal weight. Horses are out tonight the cob who has a thick coat has nothing on the other two are wearing just a sheet .
I never short feed in the morning just do not get the time and it stops door kicking


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## JFTDWS (3 December 2017)

Just out of curiousity, GTRJazz, did they also condition score your cob?


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## KittenInTheTree (3 December 2017)

Sussexbythesea said:



			It&#8217;s possible to be succinct without being rude.
		
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It's also possible to have a university level education and not whine about information pamphlets being too detailed to bother reading them.


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## Cortez (3 December 2017)

If it looks fat and you can't feel it's ribs, it is fat. If it looks poor, it is thin. Feeding horses is not difficult. Nor is ignoring feed companies.


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## GTRJazz (3 December 2017)

Yes they did would have to get the paperwork to remember the grade now, we have it on file for all three horses to see how they change over time and with work put in.


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## Sussexbythesea (3 December 2017)

KittenInTheTree said:



			It's also possible to have a university level education and not whine about information pamphlets being too detailed to bother reading them.
		
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Oh dear you are rude. I have read it about three years ago as a matter of fact. I wasnt whining I was pointing out that people just wont read it - at least not the people that need to read it. Thats a fact!  I write a lot of technical guidance that has to be written for the lay person to read. If I didnt they wouldnt read it or understand it therefore it would be a complete waste of time. 

Secondly people dont read things they dont think apply to them so if they think their horse is fine they are not suddenly going to read something about how to get their horse to lose weight.


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## DabDab (3 December 2017)

JFTD said:



			I wasn't having a dig, honestly (and actually I didn't realise it was you who'd said it until I looked back) - I picked it up initially because I thought it was worth saying they already do that, and have done for years.  You then carried on saying you'd never seen their stuff and you'd rather they did celebrity engagement to get their point across (I think that was your basic argument - that you think that's more effective marketing?).  They may well do that - certainly other charities do as there are comments from Harry Meade etc on the Blue Cross document linked above.   I responded mostly because I am surprised (really - that's not a dig, it's genuine surprise) that horsey people don't see these things, or engage with their stands at events, stumble across their campaigns on the internet or at horsey events etc.  

There's no easy answer, anyway.  I think - as I said before - that changing opinions in industry professionals - from vets to instructors and YOs - is probably the way forward, and I think that's what the WHW conference is about.  I think that is, essentially, getting inside livery yards, just by a different route.  Like LeoWalker, I think feed marketing is far from ideal, and that's a huge problem.  Hard to tackle though - there's no profit in reducing feed use.
		
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Not really, that was one of the things I mentioned, my main point was that there are surely more positive efforts to be made/things to include in a speech, that don't include coming out with contradictory sound bites that simultaneously pisses off a whole bunch of different groups of horse owners, including those that are perfectly responsible.

No, no money in reducing feed sales sadly.....or rug sales.....but then again there isn't much in taking shoes off horses and that has become more common and mainstream, so you never know, someone clever may do something innovative


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## ester (3 December 2017)

On the subject of data does anyone know where the rugging chart that keeps doing the rounds originated from and from which sets of did someone just decide? I've asked a few people that have put it in Facebook threads but not had an answer. 

Ours are definitely pets, they live in the back garden


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## JFTDWS (3 December 2017)

Don't know Ester, but it's been bugging me too...


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## DabDab (4 December 2017)

Oh, now that piece of useless information I have seen - one of the online equine stores had it as an article at the end of summer, complete with hyperlinks at the bottom for pages with rugs of those weight brackets for sale. I remember thinking that the weights were on excessive side even for PSSM horse

ETA Link: https://www.equus.co.uk/blogs/community/temperature-guide-to-rugging-a-horse


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## tallyho! (4 December 2017)

DabDab said:



			Oh, now that piece of useless information I have seen - one of the online equine stores had it as an article at the end of summer, complete with hyperlinks at the bottom for pages with rugs of those weight brackets for sale. I remember thinking that the weights were on excessive side even for PSSM horse

ETA Link: https://www.equus.co.uk/blogs/community/temperature-guide-to-rugging-a-horse

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Sigh. Well, with that advice, over-rugging will remain a problem.


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## DabDab (4 December 2017)

tallyho! said:



			Sigh. Well, with that advice, over-rugging will remain a problem.
		
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Yeah...I think I remember being most surprised by the reader comments at the end - there were a lot along the lines of using that chart to show other people that they didn't need to rug as much :eek3:


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## ester (4 December 2017)

yup that's the one I can only track it to that equus site, though there is a green version. Someone said to me yesterday when I said it was of no use whatsoever that it was just a starting point. I still wasn't sure how. 

Nearly as good as the horseware app, that seems to have defined temperature cut offs and I can't see how a 1C difference requires an extra 100g...


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## TeamChaser (4 December 2017)

Nothing wrong with treating our horses as pets, I'd class mine as pets first and foremost. BUT I am routinely astounded at the number of bone idle people that seem to own horses!! For me, they're a lifestyle choice and that includes ensuring they have an appropriate amount of exercise to avoid obesity. 

I don't particularly want to get up at 6am every day of the week but I accept that I must when autumn/winter months dictate amount of daylight available. Nor do I particularly like turning out again in the dark at 6.30pm to get them in and do evening stables. Roll on spring!!! My 2 younger horses are exercised at least 4-5 times a week, 6 if I can manage it, and the 21 yr old 3-4 times per week. There are definitely days at this time of year when it feels a bit of a chore but it ensures they are kept fit and healthy .... kinda my responsibility as their guardian

I work full time (very lucky to have flexible working patterns though), have 3 horses and 2 dogs so I do get it is bloody tough in the winter!! Just baffles me when I come across folk who seem to think owning horses is a 10 minute a day job


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## DD (4 December 2017)

mine are pets.


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## Nasicus (4 December 2017)

Mine are pets, most they ever get rug wise is a zero fill. One lives in a zero fill until the midges are all stone dead, as she's a sweet itch sufferer, still grows a fluffy coat ready for when it can come off. The other is a woolly mammoth with shaved legs and a strip clip, and the only one that's not rugged in her herd, most of them have been in minimum 100g since around October, she'd sweat up horribly in a 100g even now! Yeah, she spends most of her time covered head to hoof in orange clay mud, so my not-so-coloured cob is usually stained orange, but she's happy.

Must admit though, I'm guilty of riding her only a couple times a week, anxiety/panic attacks can make it hard to go out (not horse related anxiety, more 'being stuck away from home and having an ibs attack' anxiety), but hey, I'm not going to let her be a blob and then try run her round a course or expect her to do any more than pootling around with no fittening work. And to be honest, pootling is what we're both happy doing  The other one I can get away with as she's only 2 1/2, so she's not doing much more than eating and growing!


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## SpottyMare (4 December 2017)

TeamChaser said:



			Nothing wrong with treating our horses as pets, I'd class mine as pets first and foremost. BUT I am routinely astounded at the number of bone idle people that seem to own horses!! For me, they're a lifestyle choice and that includes ensuring they have an appropriate amount of exercise to avoid obesity. 

I don't particularly want to get up at 6am every day of the week but I accept that I must when autumn/winter months dictate amount of daylight available. Nor do I particularly like turning out again in the dark at 6.30pm to get them in and do evening stables. Roll on spring!!! My 2 younger horses are exercised at least 4-5 times a week, 6 if I can manage it, and the 21 yr old 3-4 times per week. There are definitely days at this time of year when it feels a bit of a chore but it ensures they are kept fit and healthy .... kinda my responsibility as their guardian

I work full time (very lucky to have flexible working patterns though), have 3 horses and 2 dogs so I do get it is bloody tough in the winter!! Just baffles me when I come across folk who seem to think owning horses is a 10 minute a day job
		
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Nothing to do with the thread, but how do you manage that?  Only the 2 dogs, 2 horses and a cat, and I get up at 5.30am and still don't seem to have time to ride in the winter...

I don't think it's that difficult to educate yourself, if you're interested.  I was a novice owner and both my horses are probably some of the least rugged on the yard, because they don't need it.  I also compare feeds to see what they actually contain, as opposed to the manufacturers claims, but mine are on variations of grass.  Comparing hoof supplements to get a 'real' comparison of minerals fed per day as opposed to the marketing claims was very enlightening   I also think the over rugged comments apply equally across the board - it's not just inexperience.  I'd like to know why he's turning up his nose at bitless and barefoot as well - with the right horse they can work well, or even better than the traditional options.


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## TeamChaser (4 December 2017)

SpottyMare said:



			Nothing to do with the thread, but how do you manage that?  Only the 2 dogs, 2 horses and a cat, and I get up at 5.30am and still don't seem to have time to ride in the winter ...QUOTE]

Fortunate enough to work from home sometimes so that helps as can ride over lunch time and work later in the evening! Definitely couldn't have 3 if I didn't have that flexibility. As much as I would love a lie in at the weekend, forgo that to make sure they all get exercised Sat and Sun pretty much without fail. Thankfully, they are all good to ride and lead and I have a friend who rides at the weekend
		
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## honetpot (4 December 2017)

TeamChaser said:



			Nothing wrong with treating our horses as pets, I'd class mine as pets first and foremost. BUT I am routinely astounded at the number of bone idle people that seem to own horses!! For me, they're a lifestyle choice and that includes ensuring they have an appropriate amount of exercise to avoid obesity. 

I don't particularly want to get up at 6am every day of the week but I accept that I must when autumn/winter months dictate amount of daylight available. Nor do I particularly like turning out again in the dark at 6.30pm to get them in and do evening stables. Roll on spring!!! My 2 younger horses are exercised at least 4-5 times a week, 6 if I can manage it, and the 21 yr old 3-4 times per week. There are definitely days at this time of year when it feels a bit of a chore but it ensures they are kept fit and healthy .... kinda my responsibility as their guardian

I work full time (very lucky to have flexible working patterns though), have 3 horses and 2 dogs so I do get it is bloody tough in the winter!! Just baffles me when I come across folk who seem to think owning horses is a 10 minute a day job
		
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 I was amazed when I found out that my local equestrian college with horses stabled didn't start work until 9am, that's when they unlocked the gates.
I have never been on a working yard that started work after 7.30, so what hope of teaching the supposedly equine educated about working in the industry or the reality of real horse care.


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## JFTDWS (4 December 2017)

honetpot said:



			I was amazed when I found out that my local equestrian college with horses stabled didn't start work until 9am, that's when they unlocked the gates.
I have never been on a working yard that started work after 7.30, so what hope of teaching the supposedly equine educated about working in the industry or the reality of real horse care.
		
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Which may go some way to explaining the final para of Jason Webb's H&H blog post:




			On the subject of education, I have been enjoying having Hadlow and Plumpton Colleges onto the yard to watch me work and to add to their range of learning experiences. Being an employer in the equine industry, I can&#8217;t stress the importance of having a balance between acquiring knowledge through classroom teaching and practical experience, not to mention the understanding that working with horses can be downright tough at times. We&#8217;ve been interviewing for an apprentice groom at the moment and although we&#8217;ve had some great applicants, we&#8217;ve also had a couple who have lasted half a day and explained that they hadn&#8217;t realised there was going to be so much physical work involved!
		
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http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/blog...fuse-answer-simple-638657#gW7qRS7uYtTah5W6.99

One does wonder :/


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## silv (4 December 2017)

TeamChaser said:



			Nothing wrong with treating our horses as pets, I'd class mine as pets first and foremost. BUT I am routinely astounded at the number of bone idle people that seem to own horses!! For me, they're a lifestyle choice and that includes ensuring they have an appropriate amount of exercise to avoid obesity. 

I don't particularly want to get up at 6am every day of the week but I accept that I must when autumn/winter months dictate amount of daylight available. Nor do I particularly like turning out again in the dark at 6.30pm to get them in and do evening stables. Roll on spring!!! My 2 younger horses are exercised at least 4-5 times a week, 6 if I can manage it, and the 21 yr old 3-4 times per week. There are definitely days at this time of year when it feels a bit of a chore but it ensures they are kept fit and healthy .... kinda my responsibility as their guardian

I work full time (very lucky to have flexible working patterns though), have 3 horses and 2 dogs so I do get it is bloody tough in the winter!! Just baffles me when I come across folk who seem to think owning horses is a 10 minute a day job
		
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Good Post, my thoughts entirely.


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