# Which bit for strong horse?



## 0310Star (24 September 2014)

I have posted before about my bitting issues with my mare and have tried everything that has been suggested and I am still massively struggling! 
My horse is a 16.2hh TB mare, 16 years old and overall a really nice laid back horse! Since owning her (4 and a half years) I have always struggled with which bit to use as she has never felt "right" and has always been extremely reluctant to take any kind of contact. She naturally has a very high head carriage which wont be helping matters but I don't think this is the issue.
She has a tendency of spinning when she doesn't want to go somewhere (mouth wide open so the bit slips though) and she also knows if she lifts her head really high then I have no brakes which is proving more of an issue at the moment as I do most of my schooling out on hacks.  She is never nasty, just really difficult! I am going to try a flash again but when I have used them in the past she has always spent most of the ride fighting it which then just add's to the problems.

I have tried:
Loose ring snaffle with split lozenge (each side moves independently)
Single jointed snaffle
Hanging cheek snaffle with copper lozenge
Full cheek snaffle with copper peanut (this so far has been the best other than the lack of brakes!)
Tom Thumb 
Magic snaffle
full cheek Waterford

I have always tried to keep the bits as light as possible, I tried the Waterford as someone suggested she may like how it would sit in her mouth and this is the most recent thing I have used, but I feel she was worse in this that the others with even higher head carriage and still no brakes!! She has a really hard mouth and leans quite badly as well but I have always tried to keep it light as I don't want to make matter worse but now I am now feeling that I just don't have the control I need with the lighter bits.

Question is... What do I try now?! I am feeling really lost with what to use so any advice would be much appreciated. I have also contacted the bit bank but thought I would post here too.

Thank you in advance!


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## Hoof_Prints (24 September 2014)

have you tried a Pelham or kimberwick? not as harsh as they look, and designed to lower the head, if you want to try without a flash the curb action helps close the mouth too. Not great for a horse that leans though so maybe try a 4 ring gag with French link or Waterford mouthpiece as the poll pressure is designed to lower the head, but the jointed mouthpiece is difficult to lean on. My horse goes best in exciting situations such as jumping and hunting in his 4 ring / dutch gag Waterford. The Waterford on the "snaffle" ring isn't much use, and he has a martingale on too. He also wears a flash as he opens his mouth a lot! hacks, dressages (doubt that's a word lol ) and schools lovely in a snaffle when not out at shows etc so don't think it will harden her mouth, it shouldn't if you school her regularly in a weaker bit where possible and I've found something a bit stronger teaches them to respect the contact a bit more if they are being rude. I'll assume you've had her teeth checked and other things such as saddle fit ! but if not, i'd start there.


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## 0310Star (24 September 2014)

Hoof_Prints said:



			have you tried a Pelham or kimberwick? not as harsh as they look, and designed to lower the head, if you want to try without a flash the curb action helps close the mouth too. Not great for a horse that leans though so maybe try a 4 ring gag with French link or Waterford mouthpiece as the poll pressure is designed to lower the head, but the jointed mouthpiece is difficult to lean on. My horse goes best in exciting situations such as jumping and hunting in his 4 ring / dutch gag Waterford. The Waterford on the "snaffle" ring isn't much use, and he has a martingale on too. He also wears a flash as he opens his mouth a lot! hacks, dressages (doubt that's a word lol ) and schools lovely in a snaffle when not out at shows etc so don't think it will harden her mouth, it shouldn't if you school her regularly in a weaker bit where possible and I've found something a bit stronger teaches them to respect the contact a bit more if they are being rude. I'll assume you've had her teeth checked and other things such as saddle fit ! but if not, i'd start there.
		
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Thanks for the reply, everything is checked and fine... she is just being rude lol Like I say she is a very sweet horse and generally very laid back but she is lacking manners when it comes to her bit and I don't think having a tug of war with her currently in every bit we try is helping! Which is why I think I need to admit defeat with the weaker bits  

I like the idea of the french link 4 ring gag but I have never used a gag before so would I keep her in it full time and use the snaffle ring for schooling and then a lower ring for hacking? And what is the difference between a 3 ring and a 4 ring gag? And also can you use a flash with it? Someone also suggested a grackle but again I am not too sure about this having never used one....
I cant say I liked how she was in the waterford at all so I think we will put that one down to experience lol!


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## PaulnasherryRocky (24 September 2014)

If she didn't accept a flash before I think it's unlikely she will again- I'd also say try a gag, I use a KY Rotary gag and so far it's going really well- you can change on to the snaffle ring for schooling if you want to as well. 

I posted on here a while ago about bitting problems with my horse and in the same boat as you had tried waterfords, every kind of snaffle I could get hold of and a pelham, as well as I had tried a flash, martingale and even a bitless bridle! 
So far the gag has proved the best yet- he doesn't flap his head up to evade it and he doesn't have his head on his chest either (which was a problem for us in the pelham) 

I've found that he was very tanky in a snaffle and extremely strong and leaning on the bit, however with the gag he has just "let go" and I can school on a very loose rein for the first time since owning him- so although a gag is seen as stronger you might find you don't' need nearly as much contact on the reins for transitions or brakes when you need them! I don't use the snaffle rein on the gag as it makes him pull again- so well worth a go! 

Here's a link to the one I have- the mouthpiece has really changed how he goes- far more accepting of contact
http://www.horsebitbank.com/ky-rotary-double-jointed-pessoa-369.phtml


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## Hoof_Prints (24 September 2014)

0310Star said:



			Thanks for the reply, everything is checked and fine... she is just being rude lol Like I say she is a very sweet horse and generally very laid back but she is lacking manners when it comes to her bit and I don't think having a tug of war with her currently in every bit we try is helping! Which is why I think I need to admit defeat with the weaker bits  

I like the idea of the french link 4 ring gag but I have never used a gag before so would I keep her in it full time and use the snaffle ring for schooling and then a lower ring for hacking? And what is the difference between a 3 ring and a 4 ring gag? And also can you use a flash with it? Someone also suggested a grackle but again I am not too sure about this having never used one....
I cant say I liked how she was in the waterford at all so I think we will put that one down to experience lol!
		
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four ring gag just has an extra ring for more leverage, can just stick it on the 3rd ring if you don't want that much, but at least it give you the option. I keep the bit on and then just switch reins to another ring unless I use a different bridle. A three ring gag Is also known as a universal gag and the four ring is a dutch gag if you go bit shopping! I use a flash with mine, never used a grackle but ive heard good things about them on strong horses, but they are designed for horses that cross the jaw so I guess you will know if that suits your horse. Too be honest, once she learns to back off the bit and carry herself rather than haul you around she may be able to drop back down to a snaffle 

its tricky to advise with the flash, if she opens her mouth to evade it seems a good idea but obviously getting in to a battle is not ideal.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (24 September 2014)

Def worth you getting a good independant instructor out to observe you riding as they might well make suggestions based on what they see & can then reccomend to try.

OP, if you DO use a gag, then do use 2 reins on it as this is what they are designed for  (apologies if you were going to do this tho)


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## hoorayhenry (24 September 2014)

Have you tried a standing martingale? That may stop her getting her head so high


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## 0310Star (24 September 2014)

Thank you all for the replies, I think the gag is going to be the best thing for us to try!!

I agree the flash probably wont work, I think I am just hoping for a miracle on that one! lol I also want to avoid a martingale if I can help it.

I didn't realise you would need 2 reins on a gag (sorry if that's a really dumb statement lol) I was hoping I wouldn't need 2 reins for whatever I tried as I have never used 2 before?

Instructors in the past have had the same idea's as me and at a loss, and my issues are out and about which would obviously mean what she is like in the school wouldn't really help which my hacking issues so not too sure another instructor would be much help


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## PaddyMonty (24 September 2014)

0310Star said:



			I also want to avoid a martingale if I can help it.
(
		
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Why?


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## 0310Star (24 September 2014)

PaddyMonty said:



			Why?
		
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Same problem as the flash, she spends the whole ride concentrating on it and arguing with it!


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## 0310Star (24 September 2014)

I can see a lot of conflicting info about 1 or 2 reins with a dutch gag now I am looking into them.... What do people suggest?


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## Slightlyconfused (24 September 2014)

Have you thought about a kineton? It's helped my friends horse have brakes, she can now go out in a group in the kineton and a gag, or snaffle, and stop.


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## 0310Star (24 September 2014)

Slightlyconfused said:



			Have you thought about a kineton? It's helped my friends horse have brakes, she can now go out in a group in the kineton and a gag, or snaffle, and stop.
		
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Could you explain what one is? I cant say I have come across one before? 

Its really hard to explain, she doesn't tank off at all but if for example I take her up into a canter on the gallops, or as yesterday in even in the school, I just cannot stop when I ask. Same with the trot. I am well aware my seat is going to be a massive factor in this but I am doing all I can in that respect, her mouth is just so hard that I may as well not have a bit or reins! She also very rarely will take a contact and just goes like a giraffe which also makes me think the bit is an issue still. But because she isn't nasty as such its been quite a hard decision as I can eventually stop... Does that make sense or not at all? lol


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## Slightlyconfused (24 September 2014)

0310Star said:



			Could you explain what one is? I cant say I have come across one before? 

Its really hard to explain, she doesn't tank off at all but if for example I take her up into a canter on the gallops, or as yesterday in even in the school, I just cannot stop when I ask. Same with the trot. I am well aware my seat is going to be a massive factor in this but I am doing all I can in that respect, her mouth is just so hard that I may as well not have a bit or reins! She also very rarely will take a contact and just goes like a giraffe which also makes me think the bit is an issue still. But because she isn't nasty as such its been quite a hard decision as I can eventually stop... Does that make sense or not at all? lol
		
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Sounds like my friends mare, nothing she tried her in would do and she had teeth and back/ done yearly. She doesn't run away, is in a nice canter or trot but doesn't come back when asked. 

This is a link to one. Some say they are harsh but they really aren't. It's a nose band with hooks round the bit so when they lean they are leaning on themselves  not you if that makes sense. As long as you ride soft and it's a nice peace of tack. My friends mare is defiantly happier in it. And you can have it with most a pony bits but she uses a gag or a snaffle with it.

http://www.saddlery.biz/kineton-noseband.html?gclid=CMf8mvLV-cACFVDItAod5woAtA


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## 0310Star (24 September 2014)

Slightlyconfused said:



			Sounds like my friends mare, nothing she tried her in would do and she had teeth and back/ done yearly. She doesn't run away, is in a nice canter or trot but doesn't come back when asked. 

This is a link to one. Some say they are harsh but they really aren't. It's a nose band with hooks round the bit so when they lean they are leaning on themselves  not you if that makes sense. As long as you ride soft and it's a nice peace of tack. My friends mare is defiantly happier in it. And you can have it with most a pony bits but she uses a gag or a snaffle with it.

http://www.saddlery.biz/kineton-noseband.html?gclid=CMf8mvLV-cACFVDItAod5woAtA

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This sounds promising! What kind of bit am I best to use it with as she generally needs a full cheek fulmer for her spinning issues?


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## SparkleB (24 September 2014)

My ex-racer is the same he's very strong and will just ignore you in most. I tried the same list as you pretty much and the harsher the bit the worse he got. The bit we're using now is actually the last thing i thought of - happymouth straight bar eggbutt. Hes relaxed in the mouth and not as strong, sometimes going softer works. Not sure what help this is for you but could be worth a go.


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## Slightlyconfused (24 September 2014)

0310Star said:



			This sounds promising! What kind of bit am I best to use it with as she generally needs a full cheek fulmer for her spinning issues?
		
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I would have a google on the bit combinations that of with it....I wouldn't see that as a problem but it's not my total area of expertise.


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## eggs (24 September 2014)

SparkleB said:



			My ex-racer is the same he's very strong and will just ignore you in most. I tried the same list as you pretty much and the harsher the bit the worse he got. The bit we're using now is actually the last thing i thought of - happymouth straight bar eggbutt. Hes relaxed in the mouth and not as strong, sometimes going softer works. Not sure what help this is for you but could be worth a go.
		
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It was similar with my ex-racer.  I ended up riding him in a loose ring, straight bar Nathe.  If you are finding you are pulling the bit through your horse's mouth then you would want to fit bit biscuit rings to it.  If you do go down this route I would suggest hiring an arena to try it in as you don't want to find you have no brakes with it when on a hack.

I would be tempted to persevere with the standing martingale - making sure it is not too tight to start with.


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## 0310Star (24 September 2014)

SparkleB said:



			My ex-racer is the same he's very strong and will just ignore you in most. I tried the same list as you pretty much and the harsher the bit the worse he got. The bit we're using now is actually the last thing i thought of - happymouth straight bar eggbutt. Hes relaxed in the mouth and not as strong, sometimes going softer works. Not sure what help this is for you but could be worth a go.
		
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Funny you should say this, I was actually looking at the happy mouth 3 ring gag... I thought maybe this might be worth a try? So if I need to extra brakes I can drop it down a ring but generally use it as a snaffle still if I wanted


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## Kylara (24 September 2014)

Very quickly - 3 and 4 ring "gags" are not actually gags - they are lever bits. Lever bits put pressure on the poll when engaged and ask the head to lower, gags ask the head to raise when engaged.

If she sticks her head up so you have no control try a running martingale - this will allow you to keep control via reins when she raises her head up. The rings on the martingale allow your reins to "pull down" when you put pressure on them so you still have control.

A mexican grackle/figure 8 noseband will stop her crossing her jaw (if she does this) and can also act in a slightly similar way to a flash. If she gapes and doesn't like the flash and only gapes when she is "being rude" then probably a different bit would work to stop that. Maybe try a thicker bit so there is less pressure on the bars. Also I would suggest contacting the bit bank and talking it through with them. 

In regards to the 4 ring "gag" you can ride with the reins on any ring, but should really use it with 2 reins if you stick them on the bottom ring. One rein on the snaffle and the other on a lower ring for back-up, like most other double rein bit combos.


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## SparkleB (24 September 2014)

0310Star said:



			Funny you should say this, I was actually looking at the happy mouth 3 ring gag... I thought maybe this might be worth a try? So if I need to extra brakes I can drop it down a ring but generally use it as a snaffle still if I wanted
		
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Its worth a go, they're fairly cheap too so you're not wasting too much. And as said above my old lad was in a nathe loose ring as he was strong and had no respect for the bit. If you can get him to accept and go softer through the mouth/neck it can really change how they behave, including lowering head carriage.


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## 0310Star (24 September 2014)

Kylara said:



			Very quickly - 3 and 4 ring "gags" are not actually gags - they are lever bits. Lever bits put pressure on the poll when engaged and ask the head to lower, gags ask the head to raise when engaged.

If she sticks her head up so you have no control try a running martingale - this will allow you to keep control via reins when she raises her head up. The rings on the martingale allow your reins to "pull down" when you put pressure on them so you still have control.

A mexican grackle/figure 8 noseband will stop her crossing her jaw (if she does this) and can also act in a slightly similar way to a flash. If she gapes and doesn't like the flash and only gapes when she is "being rude" then probably a different bit would work to stop that. Maybe try a thicker bit so there is less pressure on the bars. Also I would suggest contacting the bit bank and talking it through with them. 

In regards to the 4 ring "gag" you can ride with the reins on any ring, but should really use it with 2 reins if you stick them on the bottom ring. One rein on the snaffle and the other on a lower ring for back-up, like most other double rein bit combos.
		
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Thank you, that reply is really interesting and definitely food for thought! I think I will give the running martingale a try with the bit that I have found to be best suited out of all of the ones I have tried. If it still doesn't work then I will have a look at stronger bits like the happy mouth 3 ring gag.

I really hope I can resolve this as it is really frustrating now


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## Kylara (24 September 2014)

Happy to be of help.

Also just out of interest, how is she on the lunge? Does she gape and fling her head up as well? You said she tends to do it on being asked to transition down, so maybe some lunge work to help her improve her balance and self carriage through transitions would help?

Running martingales are good because they don't do anything unless the head pops above a certain level and even then they just allow the reins to remain effective so any pressure asks for downwards head movement.

If the bits "run through" her mouth try full cheek versions or get the rubber biscuits that go between the "rings" and the mouthpiece so that the bit doesn't get dragged through the mouth 

If you do look for stronger bits don't go for gags - look for lever bits as they ask for the head to lower  Make sure you have a thick/wide poll strap on the bridle though so you don't cause pain when the lever action is engaged


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## 0310Star (24 September 2014)

Kylara said:



			Happy to be of help.

Also just out of interest, how is she on the lunge? Does she gape and fling her head up as well? You said she tends to do it on being asked to transition down, so maybe some lunge work to help her improve her balance and self carriage through transitions would help?

Running martingales are good because they don't do anything unless the head pops above a certain level and even then they just allow the reins to remain effective so any pressure asks for downwards head movement.

If the bits "run through" her mouth try full cheek versions or get the rubber biscuits that go between the "rings" and the mouthpiece so that the bit doesn't get dragged through the mouth 

If you do look for stronger bits don't go for gags - look for lever bits as they ask for the head to lower  Make sure you have a thick/wide poll strap on the bridle though so you don't cause pain when the lever action is engaged 

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Thank for the advice  She has ringbone so lunging is a no go... a total pain as I think some work on the lunge especially in a pessoa or equiami would really benefit her! Because of her head carriage she is very hollow and in turn is building up the incorrect muscles. So as you can see this is like being stuck between a rock and a hard place lol 

We have recently moved to a yard with 2 large all weather arenas which means over winter I can really concentrate on schooling her too now we have a good surface to work on, I am just trying to build her fitness before starting this so only going in the school to finish off her work after a hack. She bit she goes best in is her full cheek snaffle with copper peanut so I will give this a go with a running martingale and see how we get on!


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## Kylara (24 September 2014)

If lunging is a no go, how about free schooling? Or maybe try and long rein her in the school? The long reining would be especially helpful as you use a bit with the reins and you can see if she is any better through transitions and slowing without a rider on board 

Good luck with whatever you end up doing and remember patience and perseverance are key!


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## Carrots&Mints (24 September 2014)

What about an american gag? Friend uses one from time to time in the traditional who can be very strong, soon stops in this! And hes very very light in it as well! 

http://www.robinsonsequestrian.com/...gle_base_gbp&gclid=CMXwv7_m-cACFU7MtAodxn0Aew


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## 0310Star (24 September 2014)

Kylara said:



			If lunging is a no go, how about free schooling? Or maybe try and long rein her in the school? The long reining would be especially helpful as you use a bit with the reins and you can see if she is any better through transitions and slowing without a rider on board 

Good luck with whatever you end up doing and remember patience and perseverance are key! 

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Thank you  fingers crossed the martingale will help, I think schooling properly again is going to be a big step too as she has mostly been hacked for the last couple years and although I try and school on hacks I think being in the school may benefit her a bit too


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## 0310Star (24 September 2014)

Carrots&Mints said:



			What about an american gag? Friend uses one from time to time in the traditional who can be very strong, soon stops in this! And hes very very light in it as well! 

http://www.robinsonsequestrian.com/...gle_base_gbp&gclid=CMXwv7_m-cACFU7MtAodxn0Aew

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Thanks for the reply, I wouldn't be able to use something like that on her though as she hates jointed bits!


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## Carrots&Mints (24 September 2014)

0310Star said:



			Thanks for the reply, I wouldn't be able to use something like that on her though as she hates jointed bits!
		
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You can get different mouthpeices


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## Pearlsasinger (24 September 2014)

I haven't read a the replies, so someone else may have already made these suggestions.

PeeWee bit, I first got one after have been tanked off with by a Clydesdale at a *trot*.  She had been scared by colts running behind a wall but I still needed to find something to stop it happening again.  The side pieces help with steering and she won't be able to open her mouth round them.  I lent the bit to a friend to teach her eventer steering and brakes and she found it very useful.  I then used it successfully with an ID because she didn't like jointed bits.

NS Universal, I use it with my very strong Draft mare, she can lean on your hands but also sometimes has a high head-carriage.  It needs 2 reins and a curb strap but she finds it very comfortable and responds well to it, far better than the Dutch gag that she came with.


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## Princess Rosie (24 September 2014)

Having been through pretty much every biting option with my very strong young mare we have now found amazing success with a myler combination short shank. She has a history of tanking off when excited and we now have brakes and steering for the very first time and she loves the bit. Hope you have success in your search but I would recommend the myler, it was recommended to me.


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## 0310Star (24 September 2014)

I have seen myler bits about but never used one. Can you explain the pros or cons with them?


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## Princess Rosie (24 September 2014)

This is a good explanation : http://horsebitbank.com/myler-combination-bit.shtml

They are a really kind bit and work on 5 separate areas, my mare was shocking in every bit, she absolutely loves her myler and goes really well in it. She has tried to tank off with me when she's got excited and very gentle application has stopped her in her tracks! It was recommended to me by her previous owner who now has a 17.1 shire who bolts and it stops him and he's now attentive and responsive in the school (as is my mare). 

It takes a bit of fiddling to get it adjusted initially (I had to buy shorted cheek pieces as the side of the bit is longer than standard bits) and I put it on her three times on the ground and got her used to the feel of it before riding in it and she was an instantly different horse. 

This is the bit: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/2713...1=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108&ff19=0

This is a really good price (I won my on ebay auction for £28), the only thing I found was the rawhide noseband rubbed her nose (as she has a dent in her nose from headcollar cutting into her nose as a baby before I got her!!!!). You can buy a leather noseband replacement (lady on ebay sells them for £16) but I actually cut the rawhide off and replaced it with a curved piece of dense foam and she much prefers it, I also have a cord on mine as they use in the US (they don't seem to use them over here) which just helps keep the noseband in the right place.   If you need anymore info of pics of mine fitted then just shout. There also really good vids on you tube by the myler brothers who go through all the fitting of it.


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## Annagain (24 September 2014)

If she likes the mouthpiece with the copper peanut I'd try to find others with the same mouthpiece - you should find at the very least a 3/4 ring gag with a lozenge (maybe not a copper one though) and probably others too. I'm big believer that the horse chooses the mouth piece and the rider chooses the cheeks. Trial and error is the only way though unfortunately. 

It took 18 months to find a bit (well 3 in fact) my boy and I were both happy with. He has a mullen mouth hanging cheek for dressage, a waterford hanging cheek for hacking and a waterford 3 ring gag (with two reins) for exciting stuff. The mouth pieces he's happy and comfortable with, the cheek pieces give me the requisite amount of control! 

If she's good in the snaffle for schooling I'd keep her in that and just use the other bit when you need it. It's an excuse for another bridle if nothing else!


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## 0310Star (24 September 2014)

annagain said:



			If she likes the mouthpiece with the copper peanut I'd try to find others with the same mouthpiece - you should find at the very least a 3/4 ring gag with a lozenge (maybe not a copper one though) and probably others too. I'm big believer that the horse chooses the mouth piece and the rider chooses the cheeks. Trial and error is the only way though unfortunately. 

It took 18 months to find a bit (well 3 in fact) my boy and I were both happy with. He has a mullen mouth hanging cheek for dressage, a waterford hanging cheek for hacking and a waterford 3 ring gag (with two reins) for exciting stuff. The mouth pieces he's happy and comfortable with, the cheek pieces give me the requisite amount of control! 

If she's good in the snaffle for schooling I'd keep her in that and just use the other bit when you need it. It's an excuse for another bridle if nothing else!
		
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That is a really good way of looking at it! I think you are right, trial and error is the key so I am going to have a fiddle about with the martingale, then the flash, then I may try removing the noseband, all with her copper peanut bit and see how we go. If none of these work I will then try another bit! 

Wish me luck! lol


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## poppyblossom (24 September 2014)

I really like using a Pelham with my strong fell, he responds brilliantly to it and its not harsh at all since I ride with light hands all the time other than when hes strong


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## Gloi (24 September 2014)

Slightlyconfused said:



			Have you thought about a kineton? It's helped my friends horse have brakes, she can now go out in a group in the kineton and a gag, or snaffle, and stop.
		
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I was going to suggest this as well. It worked really well for mine. The loops of the noseband round the bit will also stop the bit being pulled through her mouth if you are fighting her spinning.


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## Swift00 (24 September 2014)

I second the myler combination bits, I have one For my pony and it stopped all the head tossing, chomping backing off etc. the only other thing that worked, and was surprisingly effective was a Dr. Cook bitless bridle, which works on the whole head, without causing unnecessary pain in the mouth, which tends to occur when applying that much pressure in such a sensitive area when a horse won't stop. Might be worth a try


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## 0310Star (25 September 2014)

Thank you all so much for your replies, lots to think about here  I really hope I can resolve this one way or another!


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## Amymay (25 September 2014)

hoorayhenry said:



			Have you tried a standing martingale? That may stop her getting her head so high
		
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This would be my suggestion too, with perhaps a nice KKbit, and a drop noseband.


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## 0310Star (25 September 2014)

I managed to dig out my old martingale last night so tonight I am going to give that a go with her full cheek snaffle with copper peanut. If that works then I will be very pleased!!


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## 0310Star (26 September 2014)

Well I tried the martingale last night and it didn't have much effect at all  So best start looking at which bits to try now...


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## Kylara (26 September 2014)

Martingale shouldn't do anything to help other than allow your reins to work better when the head is raised above the neck.
The martingale on this pic is a little short, but you can see how the rider's reins work to pull down the head and so still has some control/can regain control. Without the martingale, any rein pressure would increase the "head up" behaviour. So worth keeping it on so that you have a little more control when she tosses her head.

http://www.compassionatehorsetraining.com/runningmartingale.jpg


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## Amymay (26 September 2014)

0310Star said:



			Well I tried the martingale last night and it didn't have much effect at all  So best start looking at which bits to try now...
		
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Was it a running or standing martingale?


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## _HP_ (26 September 2014)

If you have tried all theses different bits and combo's with no improvement then I'd be looking elsewhere...
I'd probably try a different vet/dentist first for her teeth and take it from there...check saddle again and any possible pain elsewhere.
Otherwise...how about bitless?


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## 0310Star (26 September 2014)

Kylara, I agree I am going to keep it on as I think to a certain extent it will help!!

Amymay, it was a running martingale.



_HP_ said:



			If you have tried all theses different bits and combo's with no improvement then I'd be looking elsewhere...
I'd probably try a different vet/dentist first for her teeth and take it from there...check saddle again and any possible pain elsewhere.
Otherwise...how about bitless?
		
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Honestly, its not pain related! I know this horse inside out and also really trust the specialists that work on her. She is going better than ever at the minute, just with lack of brakes!! Like I said, she isn't nasty or malicious at all, she is just really enjoying her work and almost forgets I am on top which is why I have always been reluctant to up her bit, but now I think I have to admit defeat.
I think its more a case of finding the right combination which as of yet I haven't seemed to have found!


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## Annagain (26 September 2014)

I woul try something like this with 2 reins 
http://www.thehorsebitshop.co.uk/product.php?xProd=719


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## Amymay (26 September 2014)

I would try a standing one, a kk and a drop noseband.


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## littleshetland (26 September 2014)

I Haven't read all the replies, so apologies if someones already suggested this, but I've found a vulcanite/rubber pelham used with 2 reins very helpful. This will help keep her head carriage lower -practice this in walk, nice and calmly, and her neck and poll nice and soft.  I know a lot of horses can end up 'leaning' with pelhams, but I've had a lot of success with them.  If you get control of her neck, softly,  I'm sure this would help your dilemma.  Good luck!
Market Harboroughs'can be quite a useful piece of kit if used with right bit, and if you're really skilful with your hands , draw reins..


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## BlackVelvet (26 September 2014)

_HP_ said:



			If you have tried all theses different bits and combo's with no improvement then I'd be looking elsewhere...
I'd probably try a different vet/dentist first for her teeth and take it from there...check saddle again and any possible pain elsewhere.
Otherwise...how about bitless?
		
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I was just going to mention bitless? It sounds like you have tried so many bits without success, would this be worth a try? I think so tack shops rent out bitless bridles for you to try. It could just be as simple as she doesnt like the bit. No amount of martigales etc will change that I can see that making her more upset. 

I had alot of success with a full cheek waterford and a well fitted grackle with my uber strong Irish but I have seen that hasnt worked for you.


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## 0310Star (26 September 2014)

I have umm'd and ahh'd with the idea of bitless but have never really felt brave enough to give it a go! lol As like you say she doesn't seem to be accepting of anything really. I think I need to keep a list and see how each option goes. I am currently moving house so lessons are a no go at the moment due to funds but I am going to try and start having a lesson a month over the winter and see if that helps too!


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## whizzer (27 November 2014)

She sounds similar to my horse,he is now good but strong in the school in a snaffle,he likes drops or grakles, he's a swine for niggling & argueing if he doesn't get on with a bit or noseband, I've experimented with loads of differant combos over the years(& I had regular lessons & the horse regularly has back checked,teeth done etc). I used to use a universal which he got on well with, he's now always in a pelham for hacking & fast work,I use it with 2 reins. He's very good at gradually speeding up & then not wanting to stop & if he's feeling in a spooky mood has a great line in putting his head really high to spin, the pelham really helps better than anything else with both these problems plus he seems to love it far more than any other bit!


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## Burnttoast (28 November 2014)

I can take bitless or leave it but an acquaintance has had considerable success with a mare that she previously had to stop by running her into things - no joke. She said that the idea of having no bit in scared her at first but that she wouldn't actually be less able to stop than in a bit since she couldn't stop, period... and she has brakes now. She uses a Dr Cook but, again, there are plenty to chose from with different actions. Otherwise I would also suggest looking at the myler combination.


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## EquiEquestrian556 (28 November 2014)

0310Star said:



			I can see a lot of conflicting info about 1 or 2 reins with a dutch gag now I am looking into them.... What do people suggest?
		
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I ride with 1 rein on my Dutch Gag (I know, I'm naughty!) with a grackle for my mare out hunting, as she's very strong. She also has a martingale attachment on her breastplate which I use. The Dutch Gag on the 3rd rein to me would be good for your mare.

Maybe going noseband-less is an option? Then she can't fight with the noseband?


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## Jmn15 (29 November 2014)

I personally find in some horses hackamores do more of a job than a strong bit. I rode a very strong mare a few weeks ago who had been in a snaffle but been changed to a gag. I almost had less control than when I rode her in a snaffle as she was fighting against the bit. I rode another strong horse later on who was in a hackamore and actually had way more control! She responded to half halts in some of very bolty canters. However i have ridden many a horse in a gag who have been way more controllable.. I suggest either a hackamore or a gag


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## charlie76 (29 November 2014)

Ihave just taken on a new client who has an Irish draught x that's built like a tank. Imwould say that he was verging in dangerous to canter in the school,he would grab the but and run out of control like a bulldozer until he hit a wall. Not nice. He was in a waterford and it was doing nothing. 
We have since tried him in a magic bit, I taught the rider in it for half an hour and the difference was immediate. Two weeks later she had a lesson having ridden him in it several times and the out old control bulldozer is now cantering balanced, steady twenty metre circles and stops when asked.


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## Plaine1956 (25 December 2014)

I agree with you, schooling is important in this situation rather than so much as going to a stronger bit. I would try a kimberwick, using the top slot for schooling and bottom slot for hacks. I would turn her in circles (meaning pulling with one rein and the other rein totally loose, like a one rein stop) whenever she gets too strong or ignores you. I would also back her every time a few steps for the same reason as the schooling. Hope this helps a little bit at least. Cheers 

QUOTE=0310Star;12628557]Thank you  fingers crossed the martingale will help, I think schooling properly again is going to be a big step too as she has mostly been hacked for the last couple years and although I try and school on hacks I think being in the school may benefit her a bit too[/QUOTE]


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## old hand (25 December 2014)

Another vote for the myler combination, am using one with a micklem bridle ( combination fitted above the drop noseband) and a sheepskin sleeve on the combination noseband.  Horse still forwards but polite.  Sheepskin noseband stops him putting his head up as he can't see if he does!  was teaching a young girl with a horse that refused to stop.  we pratcied 100's of halts , just go a few steps and then halt, few more then halt, reward and just keep repeating.  Build up to trot and halt from trot, two or three steps only at first so that you always achieve it.  keep going for half to threequarters of an hour or until you can halt from trot going towards the gate and canter at any point in the school.  then do the same the next day.  we changed the bolting pony , he just charged straight back to his box into a nice pony that could be ridden cross country in a snaffle in four lessons.  he just had not been taught to stop when asked.  have used this method with show jumpers that rush, bolters and rearers.  they just seem to misbehave because they have not learnt to behave.  Be very consistent and you probably will not need to change much but if the horse does have a damaged mouth then a combination bit would make sense.  said pony was 15 so don't worry if he is older.  It does work.


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