# Dressage German based v French based training



## Essex Maverick (12 September 2018)

Up until a few weeks ago I had no idea there were 2 ways of basic dressage training. I now understand that the most common way is to be taught the German based way. However, following a recent trip to Portugal, my daughter was lucky enough to grab a few lessons with an extremely talented lady, who teaches the French way, and the differences were quite mind blowing, some being the opposite to what my daughter has been taught over the last 5 years. Now firstly I have to say her UK coach is amazing, taking her up through the ranks with some great coaching. However, my daughters pony suffers constantly with a tight back, and being a mare does not always want to do as asked - when asked (all been there yes?). After the two sessions on horses trained the French way she tried a few of the techniques at home and was amazed at how her Pony reacted in a better way. The main part was the fact that everything is slowed right down, rising less, and communicating everything from her core not the leg or the reigns. One of her main problems before has always been balance, the more forward the more unbalanced, however with the French way by slowing it down the balance was beautiful . So collection and softness was her next projects to work on at home.
Here is my issue.
Does she sacrifice balance for forwardness? In the eyes of a dressage judge what would they rather see? A slower more balanced routine or a forward going pony but a little less balanced.??? The problem with changing to this way means she will loose out on some pace?

Thanks for reading.


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## be positive (12 September 2018)

My view is that while they need to be going forward if the forwardness is causing the horse to rush out of it's natural rhythm, to be unbalanced and therefore tense everything must be slowed down if it is ever going to progress, it has nothing to do with me following any system and everything to do with logic, a tense horse cannot work to it's full potential so slowing down, as long as it is still thinking forward, makes perfect sense to me, once they are working more confidently they will then start to show more power through the paces and should in theory be moving far better than if they continue to be pushed out of balance. 

The dressage marks may change but you need to look at the end game and most judges want to see softness, a supple willing horse that is working confidently even if it is less flashy at first glance.


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## JustMe22 (12 September 2018)

I think the key is that the horse needs to be in front of the leg. You can go "slowly" as long as you have the feeling that if you were to add leg and ask for more impulsion, you'd get the reaction easily.

And of course, you want the horse forward and responsive - but not so forward that the horse is running on to the forehand and losing balance. Better off dialling it back a fraction and going slower. My instructor always says that it's about making the hind end quick but not lurching forward. Springy, not rushing  but you can't create that by forcing the horse out of its rhythm by going too forward


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## Orangehorse (12 September 2018)

Should I have a new horse to school I would go "the French way."  The end result is the same, but getting there is different.  The trouble for most people is finding a local instructor.


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## DabDab (12 September 2018)

Go with whatever approach your daughter feels allows her to ride the most effectively. Yes you might get comments from the judge about forwardness, but with the other approach you may well get comments about suppleness and flow. So it's swings and roundabouts really.

But I would say that she is setting herself up for confusion and frustration if she's trying to ride and school in a fundamentally different way to her trainer's approach.


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## redapple (13 September 2018)

I was once guilty of pushing a horse out of it's rhythm to have a 'forward' action. Did not look pretty, did not mark well! A friend and good rider gave me a telling off and we got it sorted! I think that its easy to mistake impulsion and forwardness for speed (as I did riding a laid back cob). As long as your daughter's horse has impulsion and is travelling forwards and in front of the leg then stick with the French method of she's enjoying it. It certainly shouldn't mark you down (though that doesn't mean it won't!).


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## Essex Maverick (13 September 2018)

Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply with your ideas and thoughts.
The point of confusion obviously did cross our minds and one we are taking very seriously, and the out come of the discussions is we stay as we are with the current methods at least till the end of the season so as not to get muddled. Great points about impulsion and in front of the leg, as these comments are made when her balance is poor and vice versa, so we must strive for a gentler but still forward going movement. The issue she has is she rides a Pony, and is always up against Horses, nearly always being the only Pony in the class, and her Pony is not blessed with the longest of legs bless her so everything that requires the look of long forwardness is a touch hard - but she kills them on the 10m circles 
I must say though it was a real eyeopener !


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## PapaverFollis (13 September 2018)

We have been rather strictly "French school" with The Beast. It is working amazingly well for us. It's my husband who is the real scholar I suppose (enthusiast anyway) and The Beast is really his horse so I do as he asks (I would have probably ridden more forward to start, we spent months in walk and I was in a panic that we'd never get out of walk :lol: ). I think German school is also valid as it happens I just think it is done more so is more often done badly (pushing horse out of rhythm etc then hauling it in) and I'm guilty of that in the past for sure.  Approaching things in a French school way has been a revelation for me, but has not been without it's frustrations...but consistently more and more of the work she's producing is just such a joy to sit on.  We are very much amateurs and just feeling our way along but I feel happy in this groove. We don't have much opportunity for competitive dressage though and even if we did it isn't a priority. I suspect we'd be told off for not being forward enough currently. But I have faith that a bigger trot will develop because it's already developed from a very small jog to a much more normal trot. But she's supple! And balanced! And so,so responsive. And her free walk is always stretched and swinging. 

Same end results though. Just different paths really.


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## tristar (13 September 2018)

think french means you can go further and reach a high level, and german means you could wreck it at the start,  totilas`s last performance shocked me to my core, apart from the fact he was lame.

german looks to me over demanding, before the horse is ready to convert  the energy generated into the ideal posture.

french is all about posture, attaining the relaxed suppleness to arrive at collection naturally

your horse has already shown you you are on the right track, i am sure many a horse must heave sigh of relief when ridden this way, who cares what dressage comp judges think, horses tell you when its right.


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## shortstuff99 (13 September 2018)

Well lets not knock the Germans too much for Totilas eh? The rider who originally trained him is notorious for ruining horses. But I think the two methods work just depends what kind of horse you have got and whether it is naturally inclined to be lazy or to rush.


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## milliepops (13 September 2018)

shortstuff99 said:



			Well lets not knock the Germans too much for Totilas eh? The rider who originally trained him is notorious for ruining horses. .
		
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a valid point here though in a funny way Totilas is kind of relevant to the topic, started as he was in a "dutch" way (for want of a better word), the difficulty really seemed to stem from making the change from that system to the german one. 
If you totally change the way you ride and train a horse, you have to expect some fallout. How dramatic that is, will vary!


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## tristar (14 September 2018)

the question for me is why a lot of horses struggle with german based school of riding, yet  all horse i have ridden seem to understand french.

the school of dominance or the `school of  lightness`

i think totilas was the perfect example of a horse  really getting pixxed off with the hamfisted rider in his last performance, his body language was a lesson i shall never forget.


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## Cortez (14 September 2018)

The so-called French school is actually the original way of training horses (dressage is a French word, which means "training"), the German way is much later and based on the campaign method. The purest dressage, in my opinion is still found in Spain and Portugal. I know which style I prefer (and I have done both to FEI level). If I was still interested in competing I'd have to do a bit of "German" to gain top marks, but for my own conscience, pleasure, interest and sensibilities I am happy to ride Alta Escuela and Doma Vaquera, or try my very best at least. 

In the wise words of one of my riding masters in Spain: "doma es doma" or "training is training", which means good training works, no matter what you call it, and the principles are the same.


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## shortstuff99 (14 September 2018)

i think totilas was the perfect example of a horse really getting pixxed off with the hamfisted rider in his last performance, his body language was a lesson i shall never forget.
		
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I'm not sure why you keep bringing up totilas? He wasn't trained the French way? He was originally trained using Rolkur? Which in itself is a whole different debate. And as mentioned above it highlights how horses can get confused from changing systems but lets not pretend he was ever an example of good or correct training.


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## SEL (14 September 2018)

Interesting post. I grew up in Germany (military family) so its fair to say that style was ingrained early on. Definitely not working with my current horse and all her issues, so this has me thinking now.


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## Wheels (14 September 2018)

I am trying my best to follow Philippe Karl's school at the moment.  I watch as many of his UK clinics as I can get to and i pick up so much just watching and then going home to try things out.  Recently I started working with one of his licensed teachers, my second clinic with her is this weekend and I can't wait.

PKs school is a systematic approach with different resolutions for horses with different conformation, attitudes and abilities using lunging, in hand and ridden work.  I love the system because it can take ordinary horses and train them to do extraordinary things.

There are many classical riders that I admire but this system is one that I feel most at home with and is the most accessible for me.


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## Mule (14 September 2018)

What is the difference between German and French dressage?


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## milliepops (14 September 2018)

*tongue firmly in cheek*
Yesterday the germans won team gold, whereas the french didn't send a team to WEG 

I think as cortez indicated, competitive dressage does generally seem to look a lot like the german school.


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## Wheels (14 September 2018)

mule said:



			What is the difference between German and French dressage?
		
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This is a very simplistic take on it from my own rather limited experience but I have found a few differences such as;

The French school follows a principle of legs without hands and hands without legs. So no driving the horse from leg to hand and keeping a separation between the aids. Legs are used for forward and are not active (or at least not as active) in turning and bending.  

Half halts are not used in the same way or for the same things

You apply an aid and as soon as you get a response the aid ceases 

French school uses the body, weight and seat aids in a different way

Contact *tends* to be lighter

In the main walk is the training pace and once done well in walk it is perfected in trot and tested in canter

More attention is paid to overall balance

French school strives for correct paces and biomechanics 

Longitudinal flexion comes after lateral flexion

BTV is not accepted, of course a horse may lose balance and drop BTV but it should be corrected immediately.

I'm sure some of these things also happen in the German school as well but horses still seem to get marked well in dressage comps even if their paces are not regular and they are btv


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## ycbm (14 September 2018)

After four lessons which started well, I've realised that my trainer is not as flexible as I had hoped with a horse who is not a warmblood, and is imposing a German method on a horse who can't take it. I lost track of the number of times last week that I was told to drop my hands, when I know for a fact that we would have got the passagey trot that she was so pleased with at the end in half the time if I had been allowed to raise my hands to free his shoulders, as Philippe Karl teaches and as Fuego's rider does consistently in his tests. I know it because I get it at home and have watched a friend on him get it too.

German methods, as far as I can see, don't work  so consistently well with horses which are not big bouncing warmbloods.

I'm thinking of going instead to a trainer who competes Lusitanos.

Or can anyone recommend me someone collabarative, open minded, and fun who wants lightness in the hand in the area where Cheshire/Staffs/Derbyshire meet?


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## Mule (14 September 2018)

I looked at videos of both French and German dressage. It looks very different. Is the French type of dressage less handsy? (I saw a loop in the riders' reins)

Do the French type of dressage riders prevent impulsion from going out the front end just by using their seat. (As opposed to seat and hands)?


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## Wheels (14 September 2018)

ycbm said:



			After four lessons which started well, I've realised that my trainer is not as flexible as I had hoped with a horse who is not a warmblood, and is imposing a German method on a horse who can't take it. I lost track of the number of times last week that I was told to drop my hands, when I know for a fact that we would have got the passagey trot that she was so pleased with at the end in half the time if I had been allowed to raise my hands to free his shoulders, as Philippe Karl teaches and as Fuego's rider does consistently in his tests. I know it because I get it at home and have watched a friend on him get it too.

German methods, as far as I can see, don't work  so consistently well with horses which are not big bouncing warmbloods.

I'm thinking of going instead to a trainer who competes Lusitanos.

Or can anyone recommend me someone collabarative, open minded, and fun who wants lightness in the hand in the area where Cheshire/Staffs/Derbyshire meet?
		
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Is Knutsford too far?

Or you have facilities at home right if someone came to you?

Shame you didn't get on with new instructor, I've tried a few grand prix riders and with all of them my horse ended up so heavy in the hand it was horrible


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## Wheels (14 September 2018)

mule said:



			I looked at videos of both French and German dressage. It looks very different. Is the French type of dressage less handsy? (I saw a loop in the riders' reins)

Do the French type of dressage riders prevent impulsion from going out the front end just by using their seat. (As opposed to seat and hands)?
		
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Shifting weight and balance is an important part yes, that can be done in a number of ways


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## milliepops (14 September 2018)

mule said:



			I looked at videos of both French and German dressage. It looks very different. Is the French type of dressage less handsy? (I saw a loop in the riders' reins)

Do the French type of dressage riders prevent impulsion from going out the front end just by using their seat. (As opposed to seat and hands)?
		
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I think it's easy to oversimplify things a bit, are you watching WEG? the german riders on the team are for the most part very subtle riders compared to others (mentioning no names, it's easy enough to see what is harmonious and what is not), I don't think you can produce a fluent picture if you're relying on your hands to keep the horse on your seat.  I guess it all boils down to whether you want to pursue dressage for its own sake or for competition because even at prelim level if you present a horse to a judge not drawing into the contact with loops in the reins, that is not correct according to the definitions of acceptance of the contact IMO  regardless of how light on the forehand it is 

I also don't think it's necessary to look for a "school" when seeking out a good trainer, someone who gets your horse and can help to train it can be following any or no school  it's about getting a good general fit, I think, rather than abstractly picking one way or the other.  JMHO, I have weirdo horses and I know when we're onto a good thing, and I also know the people I would pay money NOT to train with  (one of my most horrible sets of lessons was with a well respected member of one of the Iberian schools so I guess that turned me off things with a label a bit!)


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## PapaverFollis (14 September 2018)

We use the seat to slow the horse and contain the impulsion. Hands are there to back it up if needed but mostly hand are very light and still and just asking for the jaw to soften and flex with tiny finger wiggles.  When she's worked in right and warmed up The Beast does everything from the seat with hardly any hand or leg aides. The feeling down the reins when it's right is like a whispered conversation. Honestly I find it all a bit surreal when she's really on the money.


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## milliepops (14 September 2018)

see, PF, I think you could say the same if you watched say Carl or Charlotte, there's little in the way of visible aids when the horse is really tuned in, small adjustments and a very good seat. I think that's the mark of good riding that most of us would aspire to


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## paddi22 (14 September 2018)

i have a danish trainer who used the german method, and my horse is very light in the contact when he's working through his back.  But we did work through a lot of stages to get there, but i would never consider myself having a driving contact or him being very strong in the contact. i only have power in one arm so i have to ride through my seat and legs,  but i never found any conflict with that and the german method i was taught.

I love watching french style dressage but there are no trainers near me. I do think  you see a lot of people 'trying' french dressage with a horse who isn't working through their back or using their hind enough. I think a lot of people starting that style often assume a light contact is correct, whereas when you look at the horse it isn't working properly. 

I would love to really understand and learn the french style. I know my way of riding now is very strong in the seat and the leg.


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## ycbm (14 September 2018)

milliepops said:



			see, PF, I think you could say the same if you watched say Carl or Charlotte, there's little in the way of visible aids when the horse is really tuned in, small adjustments and a very good seat. I think that's the mark of good riding that most of us would aspire to 

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If you watch closely, imo,  Charlotte frequently has fists of iron, and has to completely brace herself in the saddle to hold the contact and not be pulled forwards by the horse.


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## Mule (14 September 2018)

I haven't been watching weg, I must have a look tomorrow.
 What makes me curious is some of the really nice western equitation riders I've seen video of. They dont have much in the way of rein contact and the saddles are so bulky, they must do everything with weight aids.
 Are these horses taking the contact and light in front or behind the contact, as in avoiding bit contact?


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## milliepops (14 September 2018)

ycbm said:



			If you watch closely, imo,  Charlotte frequently has fists of iron, and has to completely brace herself in the saddle to hold the contact and not be pulled forwards by the horse.
		
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I don't have an axe to grind on either side, but I think you have to look at both ends of the reins to assess the quality of the contact. 
You don't often see tense or open mouths against her hand. I don't have a problem with a secure contact, I would have a problem with the absence of one or a tooth-grinding gobbing mouth  I think few riders are as secure in their core as Charlotte and that can make her look forced sometimes by comparison.


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## Mule (14 September 2018)

Or if the western horses were taking rein contact would they stretch down to meet the riders hands like in a free walk or stretchy trot?


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## ycbm (14 September 2018)

milliepops said:



			I don't have an axe to grind on either side, but I think you have to look at both ends of the reins to assess the quality of the contact. 
You don't often see tense or open mouths against her hand. I don't have a problem with a secure contact, I would have a problem with the absence of one or a tooth-grinding gobbing mouth  I think few riders are as secure in their core as Charlotte and that can make her look forced sometimes by comparison.
		
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But if you look at photos of her horses they all have a callous on the nose where the noseband has been, so it's either done up pretty tight or they are bracing against it.

I don't get why it would be wrong to have no contact if the horse is balanced and doing the movements. Except that it doesn't meet some arbitrary rule that you need to meet to win competitions. In some tests I've watched recently of Fuego he is doing piaffe or one time changes with the reins in loops.


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## PapaverFollis (15 September 2018)

I see contact as the horse and rider being engaged in conversation... not necessarily as a physical bit to hand thing.

No contact means they are not talking because they haven't realised you are there.  Light contact is a mutually respectful conversation. A heavy contact... they aren't talking because you are shouting over them and, in some cases, have gagged them as well.

A loop in the reins and the horse in self carriage is desirable to me, something to work towards and aspire to. You can have contact and connection with a loop in the reins. But you have to work up to it... 

It's late, I've had whisky, I don't know what I'm talking about... I plobble around a sandschool in the far north of Scotland on my Irish bog horse and think noble thoughts about connection.  :lol:


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## Mule (15 September 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			I see contact as the horse and rider being engaged in conversation... not necessarily as a physical bit to hand thing.

No contact means they are not talking because they haven't realised you are there.  Light contact is a mutually respectful conversation. A heavy contact... they aren't talking because you are shouting over them and, in some cases, have gagged them as well.

A loop in the reins and the horse in self carriage is desirable to me, something to work towards and aspire to. You can have contact and connection with a loop in the reins. But you have to work up to it... 

It's late, I've had whisky, I don't know what I'm talking about... I plobble around a sandschool in the far north of Scotland on my Irish bog horse and think noble thoughts about connection.  :lol:
		
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I'm a bit like that too (minus the whisky)  I love the learning aspect of dressage. It's something that really makes me think. There's all different layers to it. You figure something out and then see there's much more to it and unwrap another layer.

 I love being with my horse alone in the school figuring stuff out. I suppose it helps that I'm curious as well as patient.

 I've found contact the most difficult to get. By nature I'm more comfortable with long loose reins held in one hand. Probably was a cowboy in a former life  Taking a short contact took me a lot of time to get.


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## Mule (15 September 2018)

Cortez said:



			The so-called French school is actually the original way of training horses (dressage is a French word, which means "training"), the German way is much later and based on the campaign method. The purest dressage, in my opinion is still found in Spain and Portugal. I know which style I prefer (and I have done both to FEI level). If I was still interested in competing I'd have to do a bit of "German" to gain top marks, but for my own conscience, pleasure, interest and sensibilities I am happy to ride Alta Escuela and Doma Vaquera, or try my very best at least. 

In the wise words of one of my riding masters in Spain: "doma es doma" or "training is training", which means good training works, no matter what you call it, and the principles are the same.
		
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I like the look of Doma Vaquera. Does anyone in Ireland teach that style of riding?


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## ycbm (15 September 2018)

I think there's really no such thing as 'no contact' as long as you have reins. The horse can feel a fly land on it, it's well able to know if you have moved your hands on the reins even if the reins are in loops. You're still communicating with the horse, just in a different language.


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## Cortez (15 September 2018)

ycbm said:



			I think there's really no such thing as 'no contact' as long as you have reins. The horse can feel a fly land on it, it's well able to know if you have moved your hands on the reins even if the reins are in loops. You're still communicating with the horse, just in a different language.
		
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You are right; there is no such thing as no contact, nor is it desirable. <<<See my profile pic over there? That horse came to me as unrideable with the most traumatised mouth I've ever seen (massive scar tissue and now melanomas in the mouth): you CANNOT take a contact with him, but if you so much as whisper on the rein he knows and follows. I adore riding him because I HAVE to ride at the top of my game, with everything except the hand involved, and this translates and benefits every other horse I have ridden since.


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## ycbm (15 September 2018)

Cortez said:



			You are right; there is no such thing as no contact, nor is it desirable. <<<See my profile pic over there? That horse came to me as unrideable with the most traumatised mouth I've ever seen (massive scar tissue and now melanomas in the mouth): you CANNOT take a contact with him, but if you so much as whisper on the rein he knows and follows. I adore riding him because I HAVE to ride at the top of my game, with everything except the hand involved, and this translates and benefits every other horse I have ridden since.
		
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I can only aspire to that level of riding, longingly.

But I've had some fantastic light work from my Clydex since I stopped trying to ride him like a German and went back to being a French Spaniard after an unhappy lesson last week.


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## cundlegreen (15 September 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			I see contact as the horse and rider being engaged in conversation... not necessarily as a physical bit to hand thing.

No contact means they are not talking because they haven't realised you are there.  Light contact is a mutually respectful conversation. A heavy contact... they aren't talking because you are shouting over them and, in some cases, have gagged them as well.

A loop in the reins and the horse in self carriage is desirable to me, something to work towards and aspire to. You can have contact and connection with a loop in the reins. But you have to work up to it... 

It's late, I've had whisky, I don't know what I'm talking about... I plobble around a sandschool in the far north of Scotland on my Irish bog horse and think noble thoughts about connection.  :lol:
		
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I just call it the weight of the rein. The lightest contact but with feel if you know what I mean.


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## milliepops (15 September 2018)

ycbm said:



			I don't get why it would be wrong to have no contact if the horse is balanced and doing the movements. Except that it doesn't meet some arbitrary rule that you need to meet to win competitions. In some tests I've watched recently of Fuego he is doing piaffe or one time changes with the reins in loops.
		
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nothing is intrinsically right or wrong provided the horse's welfare is not compromised IMO, but personally I DO want to take part in competitive dressage (and so does CDJ clearly) so therefore we have to go with the arbitrary rules set by the sport. Or else accept we won't do very well   tis a personal choice.  I like training for the sake of it, I also like competing, the 2 are not mutually exclusive and I don't think you have to go to a push-me pull-you old-fashioned style of training to do either, the art (for me) is in taking the bits you like from everyone.


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## tristar (15 September 2018)

another french spanish here.

i too have a horse, not traumatised,but that i had to ride in such  way that it improved my riding which translates to to other horses.

i believe that when a horse is truly collected through gymnastic training it is a criterea to have the almost no contact as prove of training, ie the horse looks like it is doing it with no help from the rider, `with reins attracted only  by gravity`, quote 

maybe thats where comp dressage needs to look, it would sort the wheat from the chaff where training is concerned, set a new standard to aim for.

descente de main, giving of the hand to a  correctly working horse as opposed to ramener, `bringing back the horses head  by direct intervention of the riders hand``, (oliviera)

doma vaquera is great fun, if you have a horse with natural inclinations , the first time i cantered sideways i nearly exited out the side door, i was so shocked  at how easy  and fast it was for a horse bred to do it


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## PapaverFollis (15 September 2018)

I like the perspective that there's no such thing as no contact. Thank you for that thought.


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## tallyho! (15 September 2018)

Essex Maverick said:



			Here is my issue.
Does she sacrifice balance for forwardness? In the eyes of a dressage judge what would they rather see? A slower more balanced routine or a forward going pony but a little less balanced.??? The problem with changing to this way means she will loose out on some pace?

Thanks for reading.
		
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You sacrifice neither balance nor forwardness in french classical. Only TIME. If you have no time to wait for a perfectly balanced forward way of going then go back to the german way - let the horse pull itself along on the forehand as it gets heavier and heavier on your hands. 

Contact is a two way thing, you ask for something (e.g. a bend/a flex), the horse responds, you say thank you (descent de main). 

The judge should see the training you have done with the horse at the particular level you want to test and that he/she is judging at. How you get there is up to you. You can either rush the job and go with a "heavy" horse or wait a bit and get there with a "lighter" horse.


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## Orangehorse (16 September 2018)

I only had a "taster" weekend of the "French" method and my horse had never, ever gone better, I could really feel him working correctly, it was completely brilliant.  So sad that there wasn't an instructor anywhere near me, as I think the normal "german" school is so ingrained it would have needed an instructor to keep me on the straight and narrow.

In our discussions on what we were learning what resonated with me is that the German method is wonderful if you have a lovely dressage, warmblood, type built for dressage, but the French method works with any horse that doesn't fit that description!  The end result is the same, straightness, lightness, balance and you can't get collection unless there is straightness. There is also a great danger of seeing, say a demonstration, having one lesson, and coming away with an idea that there was something there that is a fix, and concentrate on that and not see the whole picture. Which is why an instructor with wide experience is so necessary.


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## greybadger_19 (16 September 2018)

I think those that are saying you can't ride competitively with lightness really miss the point; there are plenty of examples of tests scoring highly that are perfectly engaged and light. As people say - this needn't be completely throwing away the contact, it's degrees of refinement.

Now, what does vary is how riders get to this point with their horses. Many roads lead to Rome, but they are not necessarily the correct way there. Not all are right, but some are definitely wrong! For example, I've ridden horses schooled to Advanced level which are an absolute pig to warm up because they expect a really strong contact, which is then used to start working the horse through to. They get the lightness in the end, but it's absolutely not how I would school them to work.

It's interesting the talk of the German system being heavy; perhaps true of some bastardisations of modern riding. If you read Gustav Steinbrecht's Gymnasium of the Horse, like all correct routes it speaks of lightness through an engaged, relaxed, and gymnastically relaxed horse. Likewise Decarpentry's Academic Equitation - from the French school - all about the same. I see someone above has quoted Oliviera too - his book Reflections of Equestrian Art is full of such thoughts of engagement, response and lightness. Perhaps what has happened is a disconnect between correct training (with whatever small variations exist) and people pushing to rush to get results, which has been noted above takes time. 

I think the bottom line is that all these systems (German / French / Portugese / ...whatever) taken in their original and pure forms are all much of a muchness (they used to be different - Alois Podhajsky has a very interesting discussion on it in The Complete Training of Horse and Rider) - what has happened is people misunderstand them, want results quickly, and then label what they are (incorrectly) doing as coming from a particular school.

For what it's worth, I have been taught what I suppose is a system that one doesn't hear of often - that of Sweden from the 1940s to 2000 or so - most famously taught by Baron Hans von Blixen Finecke to Chris Bartle. If you listen to Chris, it is fundamental in his way of teaching. It's all about ensuring you have a quick response to the aids, working the horse through straightness to a light hand, with an acceptance of all degrees of flexion and counter-flexion. It's a really natural system, and fits absolutely within classical teaching. Horses just tend to pick it up quickly even if they haven't been schooled along it (for two reasons - 1. all these systems are closer than we may like to admit, and 2. it's totally motivated by and works to the biomechanics and psychology of the horse).


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## DabDab (16 September 2018)

Great post gb19. 

And I think that there is a tendency to find all the 'obvious' faults with the way a person teaches, trains and rides when you've found that it doesn't work for you/your horse. 

I don't think the rise in competition standard at the lower dressage levels helps with respect to people wanting quick results. It is very easy to look at a purpose bred 4yo warmblood floating around a novice test for 70+% and think that that is normal. When in fact it's not normal for most horses, and they need more time to strengthen, develop and understand.


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## Mule (16 September 2018)

Another thing I find with dressage is everyone talks the talk, the horse should reach for the contact etc, but some of these same people saw on the reins and hold the horse in a frame. 

A problem imo is how some authors make dressage out to be mysterious and really complicated in their descriptions, when it's not mystical, it's training.


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## DabDab (16 September 2018)

mule said:



			Another thing I find with dressage is everyone talks the talk, the horse should reach for the contact etc, but some of these same people saw on the reins and hold the horse in a frame. 

A problem imo is how some authors make dressage out to be mysterious and really complicated in their descriptions, when it's not mystical, it's training.
		
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Yep. I've had lessons with a couple of trainers where I didn't understand half of what they were gabbling on about - they would talk philosophically while I trotted around aimlessly, and 5 minutes later I would still be none the wiser as to what they actually wanted me to do. They were clearly very competent riders but I don't believe for a second that they had all the philosophising going on actively in their head while they were riding.


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## Mule (16 September 2018)

DabDab said:



			Yep. I've had lessons with a couple of trainers where I didn't understand half of what they were gabbling on about - they would talk philosophically while I trotted around aimlessly, and 5 minutes later I would still be none the wiser as to what they actually wanted me to do. They were clearly very competent riders but I don't believe for a second that they had all the philosophising going on actively in their head while they were riding.
		
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Yep, mabey some day I'll get all that stuff but I'm one for step by step, clear instructions. One of the things that I do like about dressage is that I constantly get surprised when A + B doesn't equal C (if that makes sense). I think that's where 'feel' comes in to it.


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## greybadger_19 (17 September 2018)

Spot on with floaty youngsters - in reality how many of these do we see going on to top levels? Not many - I think down to 2 reasons: There seems to be a marked drop-off with people's ability to produce horses above Medium level, and lots of the get over-produced / over-ridden early and break down. Just because it can do a big floaty trot doesn't mean it should, or that it has the physical and gymnastic ability to do more earlier.

But, I must say I disagree with the philosophising point. I think most people do do this (i.e. have it all going round in their heads), but it becomes second nature. It feeds in to both 'feel' and how one responds  to what is being felt. Do you ignore a mistake? How quickly do you correct a lazy response? What particular ingredient are you happy compromising with when focussing on something else? Etc etc - all the thousands of little decisions we make when schooling (mule made the great point above that dressage is just training!) are absolutely underlined by our own adopted philosophies.

And it is funny how that can work. I always recall a pivotal moment in my riding, when I was moving to riding sequence changes. I was learning on a schoolmaster who used to find them incredibly exciting; he'd generally accelerate in to them and squeal his way through changes. I just couldn't contain a single change on him, let alone a sequence. One day, when I had started studying riding literature properly, I came across Nuno Oliviera's book. I read it in one night flat - an amazing collection of little snippets, most of which is not about the technicalities of riding movements, but the way (i.e. the philosophy) we should have when training. The next day, I went to the stables and borrowed the horse. After about 10 minutes warming up, I cantered him across the long diagonal, and rode a relaxed line of 3-times, then a line of 2-times. Gave him a big pat, walked him off, and put him away.

Just internalising some of those thoughts of subtlety and relaxation, and modifying my way of riding, had a marked difference on this horse's way of going. I still think back to that moment fondly, and use it as an example with people of how it's not all just mechanistic in riding, but how one's 'philosophy' is important.


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## DabDab (17 September 2018)

I'm not talking about carefully penned works written by someone like Oliviera. I'm talking about good riders who are trying and failing to find the key pieces of information (the key aspects to feel) to impart to someone they are teaching, so they ramble stuff that sort of sounds good. There are many people who are good riders simply because they always have been. Their way of doing things is ingrained, they're not sure where it comes from and it's just how they've always done it. And they tend to ride the same type of horse over and over again. If they've consistently been successful in competition then why would they ever question it.

The really brilliant trainers I've found have been the ones that have gone through (and are still going through) a fair amount of process with their own riding. And those come from sometimes the most unusual walk of life, and not necessarily from one school of thought or another. As said previously, good training is good training.


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## greybadger_19 (17 September 2018)

Ah yes - absolutely agree in that case!


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## tristar (17 September 2018)

philosify, can`t be bothered to spell it right, must seem like a daunting word to a pupil  wanting to strip away the undergrowth and see the simple truth, that most horses can show us.

warmbloods are floaty as  its their  inbred movement! training is what happens when a horse is ridden and the movement develops.

i can`t see how anyone can be a good trainer unless they can do it themselves, ie. understanding how to get there by having trained horses to get there.

if horses can`t go past medium, is it an indication that the preparatory lower grades standards of what is is good is in fact stopping them, in other words the system of dressage is wrecking the training instead of setting up the horse for future success and realization of its potential.

how people can make something relatively simple so complicated is amazing.

personally i think all dressage instructors should be have to prove they can  train a horse from unbroken.


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## tristar (17 September 2018)

op talks about losing pace to gain balance, this is what i do, don`t go faster than the horse can balance.


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## milliepops (17 September 2018)

you see, this is where I really struggle with the idea of sticking with one school or another.  I think someone has completely misread my comments earlier and concluded that I think that competitive dressage has to be all heavy shoving and pulling - which is absolutely NOT what i said, to me, the dressage test sheets and judge training is clearly referencing the scales of training which in turn obv fit closely with the "german school" but also what is commonly taught by dressage trainers in the UK.  For me it's clear that the scales of training should be helping to develop a harmonious light way of going that is pleasant to watch but perhaps some people don't agree.

dunno. Perhaps you can stick to one school or the other if you are starting out with a blank canvas, but if, as many of us are, you start with a horse that knows something that may or may not be useful, then IMO you have to pick and choose elements at different times to help them to learn to respond and use their bodies in the desired way.

My young WB is not naturally floaty, she can passage in excitement but under saddle she's a reactive but dozy dobbin. For now, she has to go faster to balance, theres a sweet spot clearly, but if we slow down she falls over her own feet because she doesn't yet know how to be active unless she's really travelling.  I'm also not in control unless she starts to pull into the rein positively, if she's too light then I know she's not concentrating.  She has been badly started, perhaps we could go for slowly slowly super lightness if I'd had her before she was sat on and before she knew anything.  On the flip side, my welsh HAS to be light in the contact in order to be expressive, if she's not then it's all on the shoulder and we can't do a thing.  horses for courses. 

I agree wholeheartedly with DabDab that good training is good training, by necessity with my horses i seek out people that can train all kinds of types of horse and have a vast amount of experience and are good at thinking outside the box to help get the best from them


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## eahotson (17 September 2018)

ut in front of the leg as well.


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## eahotson (17 September 2018)

eahotson said:



			ut in front of the leg as well.
		
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Sorry, we lost some.I felt I benefitted from doing some western.Of course, there are good trainers and bad but the style is all softness and lightness but responsiveness as well.


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## DabDab (17 September 2018)

tristar said:



			philosify, can`t be bothered to spell it right, must seem like a daunting word to a pupil  wanting to strip away the undergrowth and see the simple truth, that most horses can show us.
.
		
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Hmm, yes. A perfect example there of random nonsensical comment that sounds good.


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## HufflyPuffly (17 September 2018)

I'm with MP on this one, I take notice of all training ideas if they can help the horses I'm riding.

Topaz came to me and then spent the next few years jumping, dressage training and contact had never been considered. She has to be ridden into a firm contact when being spooky, or nervous to keep her on the aids and give her confidence. When she's feeling brave and comfortable, self carriage and lightness in the contact can be achieved. So we aim for lightness, but to get there she needs her hand holding. I had a lesson in a more French/ Spanish style and it was hopeless as she felt abandoned, she is a quirky mare and we've found what she needs and so I'll stick with it.

To be honest I'm not really sure what 'style' my current trainer is (I just go with if it works then I'll stick with it), but she understands the horse in front of her and has been fabulous for us.

Skylla I backed myself and she is the complete opposite, brave as a lion and very easy to ride on a light contact without being bogged off with or having an unexpected teleport with spin happen . I think getting too hung up on sticking rigidly to a training philosophy can sometimes be why people get stuck in a rut not progressing (personal experience here!). Skylla has had to slow down and listen to a light aid, as she's so gung-ho she runs onto her forehand (which is easier to feel than see as she's built so uphill), so balance is much more important for her to coordinate herself.

Interesting discussion .


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## Caol Ila (17 September 2018)

Good thread.  I spent years and years being frustrated with my horse because I was with a series of trainers who had the approach of using strong leg and seat aids to drive her into a solid contact.  The horse being a Shire-TBX, this made her heavy on the shoulder and you couldn't do anything.  It also frustrated the horse; she learned to tune out the aids and would just potter around behind the leg and on the forehand.  That was us for years.

 Then I came across Nuno Oliveira, Philippe Karl, etc., and also started reading all Mark Rashid's books.  Mark's obviously a western guy, not dressage, but in terms of how you train the horse he gives the same underlying principles as the classical guys.  I started riding like that, as best I could on my own anyway, and it transformed the horse.  Almost immediately, she lifted the forehand and offered correct engagement.  Like she was saying, "That's how you're supposed to do it.  I've been waiting for years for you to figure it out, stupid human." She is very forgiving, a very good horse.  Ever since, she has always been willing to offer correct collection and engagement if you ride in a way that enables her to do so.  If you're having a bad dressage day, she will putter about on the forehand.  But that doesn't mean she won't be uphill and engaged the next day if you remember how to ride.  The perfect schoolmistress, really.

I think the day in class that many people, including (unfortunately) some professionals miss when they are training the so-called German school is that they don't offer the horse a release or softening when it does the thing they want.  Obviously the best and most effective trainers, no matter what school or philisophical approach, will release, reward, but I see lots of riders -- and trainers too -- scrabbling at the lower levels, driving the horses into a heavy contact and *never* releasing, just holding them there.  The horse therefore doesn't have a clear picture of what the rider wants him to do, because they are applying pressure all the time.  All but the most stoic horses will act out their frustration in some way, and then people wonder why he's being "cheeky."  I don't think any trainer of any school who *deeply* understands how horses learn advocates this approach, but I think the idea of 'driving the horse into a contact' is frequently misintepreted to mean 'drive him into the contact and then hold him there with everything you got.'


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## Wheels (17 September 2018)

This is a great thread.  I am actually at the moment exhausted and buzzing in equal measure after a 2 day clinic with my French classical coach.  My horse performed brilliantly and I have seen good improvements in a very short space of time.  My horse to me is the best judge of how the training is going, he is forwards, supple, relaxed, well muscled, biomecanically correct in his movements, taking a light contact and totally willing to do anything I ask.  I will do a write up later if anyone is interested?

A few months ago when I had only a few lessons with a GP rider and the horse  was tense, stiff, alternating between being heavy in my hand and going btv, no bend to speak off, stressy.  

Now I'm not saying for one minute that all GP riders train like this but of the several I have gone to over the years this has been the outcome.

I'm very pleased for you MP that you have found someone to train you and your horses in a way that suits you and your horses always look like they are going very well but I hate to say that many competition trainers out there end up with pupils that have very tense and stiff horses.


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## DabDab (17 September 2018)

Would definitely be interested in a write up wheels!


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## milliepops (17 September 2018)

Wheels said:



			I'm very pleased for you MP that you have found someone to train you and your horses in a way that suits you and your horses always look like they are going very well but I hate to say that many competition trainers out there end up with pupils that have very tense and stiff horses.
		
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for sure. I think it's important for us as riders to assess (as best we can) what our horses produce during their training sessions whether that be the ones we do at home, by ourselves, or out and about with trainers. And decide what is working and what isn't. I spent years paddling along without access to regular training when I had no transport and learnt to experiment and play with things I'd seen elsewhere and read about, I think that kind of independent play gives you the best opportunity to learn when things feel nice or easy and when they feel horrible, cos only the rider can *really* feel that from the horse


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## tallyho! (17 September 2018)

I so hate that word "drive" into a contact. The horse is not anything you can drive. In early years teachers used to say it to me a lot and I must admit I never understood it and watched confused as riders in the same class gyrated in the saddle, kicked with sticky out toes and sawed at the reins. I wasn't there for long... my gyration and sawing were inadequate and my kick wasn't up to scratch either.

These days the word "allow" resonates more with me. Yes I think your body can "allow" impulsion or it can "prevent" impulsion. 

Just a thought on riders (like me) that take bits from certain schools that work for them, I wonder how many of those bits come from one school or another? If you could put each bit into two buckets labelled french and german, I wonder which would fill first? My german bucket would fill first. Still I remained quite confused about things even though I did quite quite well competitively. There were still grey areas for me.

Now, having immersed myself in the purely french way of doing things (in for a penny; in for a pound), I can see there's nothing the french school cannot correct in any given situation yet in a more mechanically and intellectually sound way. I've seen all kind of horses and ponies change in front of my very eyes using the exact same tools for a warmblood or for a spaniard - all are equines and move in fixed ways give or take degrees of flexibility and tendencies for evasion. I just wish I had come across it sooner.


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## milliepops (17 September 2018)

tallyho! said:



			Just a thought on riders (like me) that take bits from certain schools that work for them, I wonder how many of those bits come from one school or another? If you could put each bit into two buckets labelled french and german, I wonder which would fill first? .
		
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Interesting question. But one I personally don't think I can answer. I think the answer would be different on each horse, different at the beginning and end of the training session, different at different times of their lives. I find that - my horses at least - are so varied that I don't particularly have an approach that is fixed, it's more about trying to explain to them what I need them to know, strengthening the bits that are weak, training but not over training the bits that are strong and trying to arrive somewhere we are both happy, understanding each other and able to do some things that we couldn't do before.

Typical Kira work, for example, this is a day we did last week.  Begins in walk waiting until she is through and letting me in, soft in the contact and adjustable in the tempo, I tend to put in quarter piris in walk to make sure she is waiting and I'm in control of the 4 corners of her without much effort. Next follows a kind of "german" warm up with stretching round/down to the contact  in trot or canter and then making sure the "go" leg aid is understood. Next some suppleness bending, neck and body with some sideways. Next to some very small quickening/balance work in trot to develop her sitting and engagement, that usually helps to bring the lightness of the forehand, collection and contact, then some more forward in the same balance, kind of test-type movements, then some more back in canter to look towards piris, then forward again for tempis
All the time she is asked to maintain a balance between being light and even but *there* in the contact, as quickly responsive to the leg and going for herself without being reminded, some is done in hand, some purely ridden..

Which bucket is more full? I honestly don't know. Perhaps you can tell me?   I don't think about a school when I'm riding, I try to think what the horse knows/needs/feels like and improve whatever I can.  some of that is influenced by training with high school riders, some by "modern dressage", some by general horsemen, I don't think it really matters?
 I also don't believe the scales of training to be followed in an order, they interlink so closely that it can't possibly be one then the other then the other though I know some people rigidly believe it's a staircase to be climbed.

The other horse I ride daily does completely different things, be pointless riding her like Kira, she has to *go* first and foremost - and straight !(balance through movement?) and can then learn to be light and in self carriage with it, but she's basically only done 6 months of retraining, the responses are still quite fuzzy so I expect her to end up with a similarly variable routine when she understands more and I don't think it's a problem to mix and match when you are trying to end up with a highly responsive ride


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## tristar (17 September 2018)

oh please update wheels, thanks


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## daffy44 (17 September 2018)

Interesting discussion.

I think the majority of people training today are quite magpie like, they have taken bits from different schools as they have ridden and trained more horses, and found a variety of tools for their tool box, I think the trainers that stick rigidly to one school of training or another are in the minority.  I think this is often a positive thing, all horses are different, and i dont think one size fits all, the more adaptable the rider and trainer are to the horse in front (or underneath) them, the better.

I think its more important to find a trainer that you really get on with, and can communicate well with, than one that sticks to one particular school or other, I really think that threeway relationship between horse, rider and trainer is paramount.


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## DabDab (17 September 2018)

I couldn't fill the buckets either. I would say that I learnt to ride in an unashamedly British way, in an environment where dressage really wasn't a thing - producing young horses was all about training them to be hunters, jumpers or hacks. And absolutely nobody ever taught me to drive into a contact or any words to that effect. I think I was about 16 before I connected the dots that people connected a horse being on the bit to its head being on the vertical, because it wasn't a concept that I had ever come across. And developing different paces in a horse was all about the utility of that pace, rather than the pace for its own sake, so the feel you develop for a particular pace relates to whether it will allow a horse to perform some end purpose. Still now I struggle with what a collected, working or medium trot is for example - I have to sort of translate what those terms mean. So a working trot for example, is a trot that would be good for jumping a young horse over a log from, whereas a medium trot is for crossing country. A collected canter is for jumping a big upright gate, and a medium canter for a low wide oxer or hedge.


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## daffy44 (17 September 2018)

DabDab, I love that, I also didnt come from a dressage background, even though I'm a dressage rider now.  I remember finding collecting the canter a strange concept, then my brilliant trainer just asked me to imagine I was going to cross country and about to jump a bounce of biggish oxers, what canter would I want?  Instantly collected canter was easy, that made perfect sense to me!


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## milliepops (17 September 2018)

DabDab said:



			And developing different paces in a horse was all about the utility of that pace, rather than the pace for its own sake,.
		
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after PC my main horsey influence was an amateur whip and event rider who "got through" the dressage to go jumping, trained her connie x's up to BE advanced and was pretty successful with a very similar approach to utility  
So what you have written makes a lot of sense to me. I think I do apply the same utility test to the paces now - can we trot a nice 8m volte in this trot? what *should that feel like*. then it is collected. Can we approach a canter piri without the canter changing in quality? then that's really collected. Are we travelling across the school in the same tempo but the sand is passing quicker? then it's extension. I think having a way of measuring things like that takes the abstractness away for a rider who is largely bumbling around on their own without eyes on the ground daily


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## PapaverFollis (17 September 2018)

I do find the language of both schools to be very similar so neither can really be dismissed as good or bad as a training philosophy. But I've had much more practical success applying French school ideas with both a green horse and a horse with which the forwards first, balance later approach had failed miserably. For me it is, as someone said, the give and release that is vital. I got that emphasised to me as a training approach by a French school instructor and not so much by the more German school instruction I received as a kid. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen in the German approach but that was my experience. I feel that, for me, coming at the problem from a French school angle made all the words that I've had in my head since starting to learn to ride (balance, bend, rhythm, straightness, inside leg, half halt etc etc) just make so much more sense. And riding is easier and less physical than I remember it being... And if I forget my sports bra it isn't a disaster either as sitting trot just isn't as bouncy anymore!! :lol:

While we're all here if anyone can give me any tips on how to make canter not so stupidly exciting that everything else falls out of the window that'd be great! (Not much philosophy or quality horse-rider conversation happening in my arena this morning that's for sure! :lol: )


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## Wheels (17 September 2018)

My clinic report is now up


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## HufflyPuffly (17 September 2018)

PapaverFollis, my youngster found canter THE MOST EXCITING thing ever too . I think the answer is really thinking about why the horse is having hysterics. For Skylla it was lack of balance and strength to hold the canter together, which with her buzzy nature meant she overreacted and it all got silly.

Building her strength and giving her time has seen a huge improvement!


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## PapaverFollis (17 September 2018)

She's really balanced and pretty strong in trot. Good solid shoulder in in walk and trot. Working on travers in walk and trot. Can happily trot 10m circles. Shorten and lengthen trot strides. But yes. I agree in principle and would say the same to someone else so maybe it is a strength issue... She's a big girl it is taking a long time!  With my retired mare I had to get to the point of doing half pass in trot before she was strong enough to canter successfully so I'm not dismissing lack of balance as a cause and take more time as a solution. But I kind of feel like she's ready to start trying it too! Which probably isn't very French school. :lol:

She does leg yield but it feels a bit like she shoots sideways to quick so maybe that's telling me something. 

This is where I find this approach frustrating... every other ****** can canter their horse without a bother, even though they are on the wrong bend and hollow and stiff! I get this glorious trot that is starting to tick all the boxes and then can't canter for toffee. :lol: and then despite being frustrated I've got to go all Zen in the head to get the really nice work back.


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## PapaverFollis (17 September 2018)

As HHO doesn't let me swear does it? Sorry folks. You get the drift though.


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## Mule (17 September 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			She's really balanced and pretty strong in trot. Good solid shoulder in in walk and trot. Working on travers in walk and trot. Can happily trot 10m circles. Shorten and lengthen trot strides. But yes. I agree in principle and would say the same to someone else so maybe it is a strength issue... She's a big girl it is taking a long time!  With my retired mare I had to get to the point of doing half pass in trot before she was strong enough to canter successfully so I'm not dismissing lack of balance as a cause and take more time as a solution. But I kind of feel like she's ready to start trying it too! Which probably isn't very French school. :lol:

She does leg yield but it feels a bit like she shoots sideways to quick so maybe that's telling me something. 

This is where I find this approach frustrating... every other ****** can canter their horse without a bother, even though they are on the wrong bend and hollow and stiff! I get this glorious trot that is starting to tick all the boxes and then can't canter for toffee. :lol: and then despite being frustrated I've got to go all Zen in the head to get the really nice work back.
		
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That's interesting. Think how all the trot exercises will lead to a lovely canter when she's ready. 

I am a fan of focusing on balance before impulsion. I hate a running on the forehand, unbalanced canter, especially when you transition to trot


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## DabDab (17 September 2018)

If they're cantering wonky and hollow and stiff then they are hardly cantering 'without bother' PF  And I bet you and beasty can canter just fine across a field...

Oh and yes, you have to be far more inventive with your swearing than that to get round HHO


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## HufflyPuffly (17 September 2018)

As a none philosophy specific person here , if just taking the pee then I'd get a bit firmer and do a lot of transitions, really catching her before she can gain the upper hand, love trot-canter-trot, simple but super effective (especially on a 20m circle so they are always turning) for getting them listening and on the aids.

Skylla also went through the whizzing off sideways too, she had to slow down (even if this made a mare tantrum) so she listened to the aids not just 'guessed' what the end result should be.


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## Mule (17 September 2018)

I haven't encountered the driving in to the hand instructers. I'm glad too, because it sounds exhausting. Obviously it doesn't sound nice for the horse, but it doesn't sound very pleasant for the rider either.


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## ycbm (17 September 2018)

Re driving into the hand, one reason why I have never gone for lessons on a GP schoolmaster is that in every report I've read, the rider says how surprised they were about how strong a contact they were required to have.

The trainer I am giving up with didn't want my cob heavy in the hand, but the way she wanted him pushed up to the bit made him naturally heavy in the hand (being half a Clyde he does not need much of an excuse!)  which I then had a devil of a job to prevent, and did by raising my hands (which works best with him) only to be told repeatedly to  drop my hands.  We all ended up very frustrated!

He is much more fluid (but less consistent) ridden in a Phillippe Karl style. I think the lack of consistency is from a lack of sufficient strength to keep on holding himself together in a frame which is very unnatural for him, exacerbated by weak (ex- locking) stifles. 

Interestingly, at the end of a 'German' lesson, his stifles give way through tiredness, whereas I have often ridden for far longer at home in French/Spanish and never had him so tired that his stifles were giving way. I really feel that if I carry on like that, I'll break him .


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## Wheels (17 September 2018)

Have you had lessons from a PK instructor ycbm?


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## ycbm (17 September 2018)

No, I can't find one around here, though I have a new lead, thanks to you. I've read the books and watched some YouTube.


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## milliepops (17 September 2018)

Interesting point about the schoolmasters ycbm.  i've only ridden one, though I rode him a few times, sometimes just for a fun time bouncing about in passage and later to learn to ride tempis.  I did find it very strong in the hand initially, but I think that was actually partly because at that stage in his life he was a bit of a glorified riding school horse - albeit one that was trained to be very very forward thinking and so the smallest impulse forward generated more power than I was used to... and some of his riders were not riding at the level to actually maintain the correct way of going in between his tune-ups.  So I guess things start to unravel - they aren't machines after all.
I whinged during a lesson that he was leaning on my hands and we then worked to get him properly into self carriage and then it changed from being arm-wrenching to just a secure normal contact, quite pleasant and an eyeopener in terms of how it should feel *to me* to have a horse really confident in your hand. 
Before being told, I had been too afraid to ride him in the way that I would have ridden my own horses if they were heavy in the contact, because I knew he was a special horse and I didn't want to do it wrong.  I wonder how many other people do the same. I know other people do it if I've ever put them on one of my horses to get a feel of something   rabbit in headlights kind of thing.


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## ycbm (17 September 2018)

Great point MP.  They aren't machines, after all, we do affect them a lot more than we realise at times


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## Wheels (17 September 2018)

ycbm said:



			No, I can't find one around here, though I have a new lead, thanks to you. I've read the books and watched some YouTube.
		
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There is a lot to be gained by going to spectate at his UK clinics.  I have picked up so much over the years, something about a few of the horses resonates and he provides several exercises to counteract particular problems that I then try out when I get home. Sometimes it works, sometimes not lol


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## Mule (17 September 2018)

I had a lesson on an instructors GP horse last year. He definitely wasn't heavy but he really took me forward.

 My half halts had to be a lot stronger with him than with my own horse. Perhaps it's because he had so much power and impulsion.

 It was a lovely to experience riding a horse so well schooled. I even got to do 4 time changes :biggrin3:It was a revelation just to give an aid for something so advanced and have the horse respond. The horse knew what to do and would do it once I asked correctly. 

My own horse and I are both learning together so things can be a struggle for us both. It's like the blind leading the blind at times


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## tallyho! (17 September 2018)

Regarding the buckets... 

It would be really interesting to see how you would fill them if you knew which was specifically french or german wouldn't it  If you'd asked me 14 years ago I would not have known.

Truth is, in the UK it would be mainly the german one as BHS is loosely based on this and actually the classical riding we know in this country is german based. I must read Sylvia Loch's book again as in there, there is a very good history of the horse in the UK... 

Trainers don't specifically go around saying "well, this is a french/german/western/portuguese technique that might help with blah blah...". Most just have techniques under their sleeve that has worked for them and give it to you so things do get "lost" because we don't use the old terms day in day out anymore and we don't speak french or german.

If/when you do come across pure french/german in your personal dressage journey, it's amazing how much suddenly clicks in place like huge "aha!" moments and you never knew what you were doing was specifically this or that...


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## daffy44 (17 September 2018)

I think MP is absolutely right about schoolmasters, also by the time these horses become schoolmasters, they are obviously older, its harder work for them, and they are being ridden by less experienced riders, who may well be riding more with their hands than their core/seat, so I think the default is for them to get very heavy in the hand and ask the rider to carry them.  

I think its wrong to assume the contact on all GP horses is similar to that on the schoolmasters,  I have trained three of my horses to GP so far, one didnt compete, one competes, one has done is first Inter 2, and should make his GP debut in the next couple of months all being well, and I promise, none of them are heavy in my hand.  The one competing GP is getting older, and with age she has wanted to get stronger in my hand, but I just have to remember to soften my hand and engage my core, then she stays in a lovely contact.


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## milliepops (17 September 2018)

well on the basis that there is nowt new under the sun, and informed by a recent talk on this history of dressage incl the french school(s), I would say that all of them have moved about a bit in terms of methods and ideals over the years. so I would struggle with any of the schools being able to lay claim to a technique or method with exclusivity anyway  So I'll happily leave my buckets in a disordered mess   Just as well we're all different, wouldn't life be boring otherwise


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## tallyho! (17 September 2018)

milliepops said:



			well on the basis that there is nowt new under the sun, and informed by a recent talk on this history of dressage incl the french school(s), I would say that all of them have moved about a bit in terms of methods and ideals over the years. so I would struggle with any of the schools being able to lay claim to a technique or method with exclusivity anyway  So I'll happily leave my buckets in a disordered mess   Just as well we're all different, wouldn't life be boring otherwise 

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I think that&#8217;s kind of what I was getting at  you&#8217;re doing alright anyhow aren&#8217;t you!!


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## PapaverFollis (17 September 2018)

Thanks for the input re. Canter everyone who posted. I shall see what can be done. I may have to work towards a bit more quality in the trot before she's really ready. Husband has left me to it for a couple of weeks so no doubt I've started to get ahead of myself without him telling me to slow the *cough* down. I've been having some very jolly canters on the stubble so perhaps have got over excited. Yes, DabDab... we very much can canter in a field! :lol: Beast has made it clear that hunting would be her preferred sport thanks very much (ears pricked, straight at the hedge line... insufficient training to be able to stop from the seat at that point :lol: we managed to avoid actually jumping the hedge though!)

In the school she just wants to explode up into a massive canter and charge round going "weeeeeee!" I want her to pop into a small, controlled canter do a few strides then come back into the good trot again. So there's a conflict of interest and I haven't exactly set her up for success by blasting up the stubble a few times really! But we had similar with trot at first too so I'm hopeful that we'll muddle through. I am sans instructor now though since moving 400 miles away from mine.

I've had two recent schoolmaster lessons. One was more German school and the horse was horribly wooden and heavy on the hands. Didn't get much out of that. The other was on Ketchup of Cobs Can fame (leans very much towards French school) and she was marvellous...


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## PapaverFollis (17 September 2018)

Ugh... I hate bring top of the page post... don't look at it... I do talk some nonsense. :lol:


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## greybadger_19 (17 September 2018)

Caol Ila said:



			...but in terms of how you train the horse he gives the same underlying principles as the classical guys.  I started riding like that, as best I could on my own anyway, and it transformed the horse.  Almost immediately, she lifted the forehand and offered correct engagement.  Like she was saying, "That's how you're supposed to do it.  I've been waiting for years for you to figure it out, stupid human." She is very forgiving, a very good horse.  Ever since, she has always been willing to offer correct collection and engagement if you ride in a way that enables her to do so.  If you're having a bad dressage day, she will putter about on the forehand.  But that doesn't mean she won't be uphill and engaged the next day if you remember how to ride.  The perfect schoolmistress, really.

I think the day in class that many people, including (unfortunately) some professionals miss when they are training the so-called German school is that they don't offer the horse a release or softening when it does the thing they want.  Obviously the best and most effective trainers, no matter what school or philisophical approach, will release, reward, but I see lots of riders -- and trainers too -- scrabbling at the lower levels, driving the horses into a heavy contact and *never* releasing, just holding them there.  The horse therefore doesn't have a clear picture of what the rider wants him to do, because they are applying pressure all the time.  All but the most stoic horses will act out their frustration in some way, and then people wonder why he's being "cheeky."  I don't think any trainer of any school who *deeply* understands how horses learn advocates this approach, but I think the idea of 'driving the horse into a contact' is frequently misintepreted to mean 'drive him into the contact and then hold him there with everything you got.'
		
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This - this - this - this - this!!!


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## DabDab (17 September 2018)

tallyho! said:



			Regarding the buckets... 

It would be really interesting to see how you would fill them if you knew which was specifically french or german wouldn't it  If you'd asked me 14 years ago I would not have known.

Truth is, in the UK it would be mainly the german one as BHS is loosely based on this and actually the classical riding we know in this country is german based. I must read Sylvia Loch's book again as in there, there is a very good history of the horse in the UK... 

Trainers don't specifically go around saying "well, this is a french/german/western/portuguese technique that might help with blah blah...". Most just have techniques under their sleeve that has worked for them and give it to you so things do get "lost" because we don't use the old terms day in day out anymore and we don't speak french or german.

If/when you do come across pure french/german in your personal dressage journey, it's amazing how much suddenly clicks in place like huge "aha!" moments and you never knew what you were doing was specifically this or that...
		
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Nothing to do with the BHS, more of a cavalry and/or hunting tradition if you had to define it. Lots of having to complete complex types of knot in bailing twine behind your back while cantering in and out of weave poles and such like. I've had lessons/known and watched many people who actively identify themselves as French or German school and if I had to analyse, would say the way I was taught had more in common with French. Apart from anything else, I have never found a firmly German school person who would walk a newly backed horse for 6-10 weeks before even contemplating trot.

For me personally I try not to get to get too blinkered about one approach or another, because I'd rather just be able to listen to a technique/exercise and think 'yeah that makes sense', or 'no not for me', or 'ooh that might be good with such and such a horse' or whatever.


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## tallyho! (17 September 2018)

PapaverFollis said:



			Thanks for the input re. Canter everyone who posted. I shall see what can be done. I may have to work towards a bit more quality in the trot before she's really ready. Husband has left me to it for a couple of weeks so no doubt I've started to get ahead of myself without him telling me to slow the *cough* down. I've been having some very jolly canters on the stubble so perhaps have got over excited. Yes, DabDab... we very much can canter in a field! :lol: Beast has made it clear that hunting would be her preferred sport thanks very much (ears pricked, straight at the hedge line... insufficient training to be able to stop from the seat at that point :lol: we managed to avoid actually jumping the hedge though!)

In the school she just wants to explode up into a massive canter and charge round going "weeeeeee!" I want her to pop into a small, controlled canter do a few strides then come back into the good trot again. So there's a conflict of interest and I haven't exactly set her up for success by blasting up the stubble a few times really! But we had similar with trot at first too so I'm hopeful that we'll muddle through. I am sans instructor now though since moving 400 miles away from mine.

I've had two recent schoolmaster lessons. One was more German school and the horse was horribly wooden and heavy on the hands. Didn't get much out of that. The other was on Ketchup of Cobs Can fame (leans very much towards French school) and she was marvellous...
		
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You will get there in the school. School canter is different to the ones out on a hack. 

The muscles are more &#8220;core&#8221; or back rather than leg. If you&#8217;re getting them too whizzy then there&#8217;s too much leg in the school it enough core controlling the momentum. Equally your body needs more core too so both of you need to to enough core strength to start and maintain a school canter. If you&#8217;ve both got enough strength in the middle then your seat and hands will become lighter to allow the canter to happen. Sounds gobbledegook writing it here and I guess I&#8217;m not the best at descriptive writing, but you&#8217;ll know what I mean when you &#8220;get&#8221; it. Some horses are naturally centered but loads are not. Mine is not! Until I can iron out the hollow side in trot, in every movement, we have no chance of even trying a canter stride because she will default to the bowed side to evade out the left shoulder and I will have no chance of holding her straight.


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## PapaverFollis (17 September 2018)

Thank you tallyho! that is really useful. I understand what you mean about core strength from both of us. I can feel it in my head, probably thanks to the lesson I had on Ketchup,  just got to have the physical reality with The Beast match up.

Posted too quickly... 

Does anyone work a School Walk as a matter of interest? Because when I think of the core strength feeling I think of the bit of dabbling with School Walk that we've done. I think I might revisit... especially as she will have canter in her head now to give everything a bit of ooomph.


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## greybadger_19 (17 September 2018)

DabDab said:



			For me personally I try not to get to get too blinkered about one approach or another, because I'd rather just be able to listen to a technique/exercise and think 'yeah that makes sense', or 'no not for me', or 'ooh that might be good with such and such a horse' or whatever.
		
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Ditto.  For me it's about having a consistent underlying philosophy, understanding of biomechanics and psychology, and then adding to the experience locker and riding toolbox on top of those foundations.


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## tallyho! (17 September 2018)

Yes all the time PF, we quite often slow the tempo and work on each step of the walk and I do it with leg, with seat and with &#8220;corsetting&#8221; my middle. Working on each of these in turn will help with the movements as you progress. If you rely on just one set of controls so to speak, you might not have another set spare when you&#8217;re asking for a few different things at a time


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## DabDab (17 September 2018)

Yes I use school walk, but only really out hacking - I like doing school walk, collected trot, medium trot up hill, then back to a sort of extended walk. Good for getting them properly understanding medium trot.


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## greybadger_19 (17 September 2018)

The one thing to watch with over-using (or, perhaps more accurately incorrectly over-riding) the school walk is it can encourage a lateral, pacing walk. I think of it more of a result of owning each footstep through co-ordinated leg, hand, and softening in rhythm rather than a pace in its own right. But, that's more of that philosophy and feel thing sneaking in


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## DabDab (17 September 2018)

Now I'm gabbling - deleted


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## tristar (17 September 2018)

oh no, not philhorseyfy again


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## tallyho! (17 September 2018)

tristar said:



			oh no, not philhorseyfy again
		
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Phil who now?


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## DabDab (17 September 2018)

tallyho! said:



			Phil who now?
		
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Phil horsefy - leading figure in the Mongolian dressage school


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## greybadger_19 (17 September 2018)

DabDab said:



			Phil horsefy - leading figure in the Mongolian dressage school
		
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Not to be confused with philhorseyfly, his somewhat more annoying twin.


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## DabDab (17 September 2018)

greybadger_19 said:



			Not to be confused with philhorseyfly, his somewhat more annoying twin.
		
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 Ah no, he's from the Transylvanian school


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## maya2008 (17 September 2018)

Whole thing confuses me - I read the books (e.g. Philippe Karl) and they sound great, but then finding an actual person who rides like that is quite hard.  Often those who say they are very light in the hand, are not light elsewhere.  I'm hypermobile and absolutely cannot apply too much force anywhere (or I will hurt myself).  I've also got various horses with physical 'issues'.  They can't be forced, and I won't lose their trust by trying, either.

As a young adult, I explored Natural Horsemanship (lots of reading and watching, no particular following of a 'brand'), and enjoyed riding bareback and bridleless, jumping and playing in the school, having fun building a good relationship.  Then I learned as much as possible about dressage and tried to mix the two.  I now have a few horses who are products of that.  When fit - light in both hand and leg, react almost to my thoughts through body language/weight.  Absolutely gorgeous to ride for me (and we got up the dressage ladder a bit before I took a break to have children), but they don't then respond well to heavier aids, which can be a problem if I want someone else to ride when I'm ill or away on holiday.  

I would say - choose a person who rides the way you like, and accept their instruction! Schools of thought don't always translate the same way across individual trainers.


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## tristar (18 September 2018)

maya2008, `finding someone who actually rides like this is quite hard` is an indisputable truth to me, the world is full of philhorseyfy [and his various relatives  monty , parelli, gods of the dressage arena etc]

 but who are the real deal , actually riding in a way we wish to see.? who can actually do it.

i was on a yard in france where there was 50 iberian stallions, all  ridden and in the course of one day watched a french ecurie de dressage
 who trained in portugal for 9 years who also studied baucher training a german rider who was there with three  warmblood horses and all i learned exactly nothing, and saw nothing that i wanted to replicate, all three systems not functioning all at once

when i see, good riding it stays in my mind  forever, like a vision of inspiration to replay.

i see iberian, german and some french ways of riding as very different,due to the postural differences of the riders

today too much talk, not enough riding, how often do people ride,? not enough to make real progress i suspect.


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## milliepops (18 September 2018)

who are you defining as "people" in that last sentence, tristar?

Most of the trainers I've found useful ride regularly, some don't have their own horses any more, others ride more than me and I have 2 in full work so spend mostly 2 hours a day in the saddle.  That said from a trainers POV I don't think it's essential, tbh, if you can train horses and riders well then what you do in your free time is kind of irrelevant to me, if I had a good trainer I wouldn't care if they spent all their other time waterskiing tbh


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## tallyho! (18 September 2018)

I don't think, post riding school, I've ever had a trainer that didn't ride and practise what they preach - I wouldn't have gone to them otherwise (it actually feels more like they just appeared at opportune moments to me). The trainers I have now I can watch them ride different horses and my own horse whenever I want and it's actually considered part of my own education.

Anyway, we're all on our own journey. 

I've watched friends ascend the BD levels using what works for them. I don't personally agree with their methods but I'm not about to fall out over it and they don't like what I do and wonder why I fell off the stressage train. I have my own beliefs, they have theirs. Things can change. Ultimately, we all make choices to fulfil our own goals of the moment. For some that is achievement that can be physically measured. For others, it's getting to know Phil Horsefy in a questionably intimate manner...


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## soloequestrian (18 September 2018)

Okay, thicky question time - what's a 'school walk'?


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## tallyho! (19 September 2018)

It&#8217;s also sometime called &#8220;counted walk&#8221;. It&#8217;s a two-beat walk where the legs move in diagonal pairs. It&#8217;s a very slow measured walk and you should be able to feel the pairs underneath you. The hind legs really need to step under and the front legs need to elongate the step... I&#8217;ve heard it be described as a prowling jaguar.


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## Casey76 (19 September 2018)

Psst... all dressage at French riding schools is &#8220;German&#8221; based, and most French dressage instructors will also teach &#8220;German&#8221; because that is what wins at competitions.

&#8220;Classical French&#8221; instruction is extremely difficult to find.

Though I&#8217;m fairly biased as I&#8217;m in a very much SJ region, and pure dressage instructors are as rare as hens teeth (the one &#8220;well regarded&#8221; dressage instructor - who only ever used to take clients of a certain level - advised my friend to put her mare in a very thin bit, a crank nose band and a flash &#8220;to make her concentrate&#8221


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## tallyho! (19 September 2018)

Casey76 said:



			Psst... all dressage at French riding schools is &#8220;German&#8221; based, and most French dressage instructors will also teach &#8220;German&#8221; because that is what wins at competitions.

&#8220;Classical French&#8221; instruction is extremely difficult to find.

Though I&#8217;m fairly biased as I&#8217;m in a very much SJ region, and pure dressage instructors are as rare as hens teeth (the one &#8220;well regarded&#8221; dressage instructor - who only ever used to take clients of a certain level - advised my friend to put her mare in a very thin bit, a crank nose band and a flash &#8220;to make her concentrate&#8221

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Oh no!!! I hasten to disagree there Casey76... how could you!!  It wasn't until Decarpentry sought to unite the schools in developing the FEI rulebook that German & French was amalgamated into modern dressage and people thought it was one and the same thing!

French classical is as close you could get to Romanic school. De la Gueriniere's work still present in the SRS (until recent outcries that is was going german!).

I read a great article in eurodressage a few years ago. More accessible than Sylvia Loch's book the Horse of Europe. I urge anyone with an interest to have a look.


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## SEL (19 September 2018)

Shared on my FB feed by Equipilates (who I appear to be following....) Tought it worth sharing given comments re: Charlotte's hands and core further up

*Well I found these words of Carl Hester's really inspiring - we are all in good company whatever level we aspire to ride to! Look out for Autumn EquiPilates Fundamentals course coming soon!  &#127943; .......................

Something that youll work on all your life is sitting better and being in a better place. Even Charlotte, just so you know, goes through the same thing at home. We try to make her better. And she wants to get better. And thats really important for people to realize.

Sometimes I say to her, when we have the demos at home, Tell people what you do to get better because nobody knows. They just presume you go out and win and thats the way you were. But of course, she started at the bottom like everybody else. And she knows that her hands were the most difficult thing of her position in her riding, so we do a lot of work with her arms to get them a bit softer. And Valegro was, and still is, a strong horse. He was a very powerful horse so it took a lot of riding for her in the beginning. Shes having to really learn now to get lighter with the other ones, because they arent as powerful as he was.

So shes learning to get lighter, and she does it with a lot of work on a ball  on a gym ball  to get her core better so that she can sit better so she doesnt have to use her hands to stay on. Just a little tip so that everybody doesnt think that you dont keep trying to get better, because you do.
Carl Hester*


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## oldie48 (19 September 2018)

SEL said:



			Shared on my FB feed by Equipilates (who I appear to be following....) Tought it worth sharing given comments re: Charlotte's hands and core further up

*Well I found these words of Carl Hester's really inspiring - we are all in good company whatever level we aspire to ride to! Look out for Autumn EquiPilates Fundamentals course coming soon!  &#55356;&#57287; .......................

&#8220;Something that you&#8217;ll work on all your life is sitting better and being in a better place. Even Charlotte, just so you know, goes through the same thing at home. We try to make her better. And she wants to get better. And that&#8217;s really important for people to realize.

Sometimes I say to her, when we have the demos at home, &#8216;Tell people what you do to get better because nobody knows. They just presume you go out and win and that&#8217;s the way you were.&#8217; But of course, she started at the bottom like everybody else. And she knows that her hands were the most difficult thing of her position in her riding, so we do a lot of work with her arms to get them a bit softer. And Valegro was, and still is, a strong horse. He was a very powerful horse so it took a lot of riding for her in the beginning. She&#8217;s having to really learn now to get lighter with the other ones, because they aren&#8217;t as powerful as he was.

So she&#8217;s learning to get lighter, and she does it with a lot of work on a ball &#8211; on a gym ball &#8211; to get her core better so that she can sit better so she doesn&#8217;t have to use her hands to stay on. Just a little tip so that everybody doesn&#8217;t think that you don&#8217;t keep trying to get better, because you do.&#8221;
Carl Hester*

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It is so heartening to read this and yes, i can testify to the power of equipilates, it's not turned me into Charlotte but is has greatly improved my position and yes, i'm lighter with my hands (Mr B heaves a sigh of relief) I don't know enough to make a proper comparison, I'm just very happy to find  a trainer who looks at me and my horse and adapts the training to make me a better rider and my horse more rideable.


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## tallyho! (19 September 2018)

oldie48 said:



			It is so heartening to read this and yes, i can testify to the power of equipilates, it's not turned me into Charlotte but is has greatly improved my position and yes, i'm lighter with my hands (Mr B heaves a sigh of relief) I don't know enough to make a proper comparison, I'm just very happy to find  a trainer who looks at me and my horse and adapts the training to make me a better rider and my horse more rideable.
		
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Corework is the only thing to get back riding after a 2nd cesarean. It is definitely worse the 2nd time around. I've also found visual images to keep my core engaged, not rigid, really useful. It really does release the arms and seat and legs.


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## tallyho! (19 September 2018)

I found it: http://www.eurodressage.com/2014/09/13/history-french-equitation-part-i-dressage-la-francaise

Hope you enjoy reading it.

Casey76's point about teachers training in a german manner is correct however, you have to bear in mind the type of horses they were riding in Germany when Decarpentry was writing the manual... he does mention flexions (and hands in fact) which I think has been completely misinterpreted... 

The worst thing to happen to dressage is the chinese whispers of what to do with the hands that affect the snaffle bit in the horses mouth - PULLING. And every single interpretation of it... "squeezing", "sawing", "shaking" etc. Horses open their mouths at the discomfort, now, you have this massive boom of the use of the flash to stop the mouth from opening. Quite cruel actually. I've been here! I so regret it!!! 

The result of of this widespread misinterpretation is the crank noseband, the flash, the huge range of "dressage legal" bits... very few people now know how to use the snaffle. I once posted an awful video of how the snaffle is used and it's effects branding it a terrible bit..... in fact, its nothing to do with the bit. It's the hands and many good riders (you know who you are) said the very same thing at the time. It's the hands. Turn up your wrist so the action is on the corner of the lips, not pulling on the bars. That part of the french school was not omitted by Decarpentry - I have no idea why so many high level riders do not do this. What happened?


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