# The tenants with the springer



## Clodagh (7 August 2016)

Some of you may remember our tenants who asked if they could have a dog. They wanted a couch potato type and decided on a CKCS. They then found out how much they were and instead got a springer dog pup. He is a pretty little thing, incredibly thin still at 8 months old but he passed so many worms when he came home I shouldn't think he will ever be a good doer.
He had his first chicken at 4 months old, luckily it was a fluffy pekin and she just lost a lot of feathers, since then he has been kept on a lead. He has no recall, is still not housetrained (he pees on the bed and the sofa, thankfully the furniture is not ours and the carpets need replacing anyway). He howls and barks continuously when left.
They are struggling with his energy levels, neither are walkers so for exercise he gets run off the bike round and round our farmyard and up and down the drive for miles. They do take him up to an empty grass field we have behind the barns and use a ball chucker thing, he loves retreiving. You can see he would make a nice little working dog, he is obsessed with his ball and hunts really well and with dedication for it.
I had a word this morning as we had to sleep with our windows shut last night as they were out, I know we are early to bed but it was 10 to 11pm. Apparently they were only in their front courtyard having a barbeque with the neighbours, I asked why he wasn't with them and apparently they can't have him near food as they can't stop him stealing it...WTF!
I am not sure what will give up first, them or his joints. 
Some people need a license.


----------



## PucciNPoni (7 August 2016)

THey wanted a couch potato and got a springer.  WTF.


Why didn't they get a lovely rescue greyhound?


A friend of mine is a groomer too, and she was telling me of a client that she used to groom for and all the dogs they ever had were unsuitable for this reason or that, some were pts due to aggression, or for other reasons rehomed.  They came in to her shop very excited to say that they have a new dog that they got from rescue.  Bear in mind they have a couple small kids.  You'd hope that they'd have got something suitable  - like a cavalier or something very forgiving.  No.  They got...a rescue Akita that does not like other dogs and does not have any known history.  

HOw on earth did they ever swing that?!  why would a rescue give a dog like that to these people?  I see disaster waiting to happen.  

Yep, people do need a license.


----------



## Clodagh (7 August 2016)

OMG, surely not a real rescue? What's that quote 'You can't educate pork'.


----------



## Thistle (7 August 2016)

Poor dog


----------



## Cinnamontoast (7 August 2016)

Gets run for miles up the drive? They're going to seriously screw its joints. This makes me so sad, we were so incredibly careful with ours. Do they know how bad that is for the dog?

 Have you got anyone who shoots who could take it off them and train it? It's such a natural instinct to hunt/pick up, it would surely be reasonably easy to point them in that direction? They sound liked idiots.


----------



## Clodagh (7 August 2016)

They are the sort of people who are nice enough but they know everything. With the internet there is no need for the level of ignorance they are showing. Trouble is by the time they decide he is too much he will be knackered.


----------



## millikins (7 August 2016)

They sound like idiots, poor dog. When you say he pees on the bed, do you mean he cocks his leg on the side or pees where he's lying, if the latter I'd question a physical problem, even a non house trained dog shouldn't pee in its bed.


----------



## Clodagh (8 August 2016)

No, he sleeps on the bed and when he wakes up in the morning if he feels the need he has a pee (on the pillows I gather). No leg cocking, he was done at 6 months.


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (8 August 2016)

omg


----------



## Alec Swan (12 August 2016)

Clodagh said:



			No,  . No leg cocking, he was *done* at 6 months.
		
Click to expand...

'Done'?

Alec.


----------



## Clodagh (12 August 2016)

Do you not call it that for a boy? He had his dangly bits removed...it was meant to have improved his recall, no noticeable difference from here.


----------



## Alec Swan (12 August 2016)

It wouldn't surprise me to read one day,  that some one comes on here and tries to assure the rest of the world that if they have their dog castrated,  they'll be able to teach him to play the piano.

There's only once certain fact about the castration of entire dogs,  and it's that it will no longer be possible for the dog to sire a litter of pups.

Alec.


----------



## Snuffles (13 August 2016)




----------



## Cinnamontoast (13 August 2016)

Clodagh said:



			Do you not call it that for a boy? He had his dangly bits removed...it was meant to have improved his recall, no noticeable difference from here.
		
Click to expand...

Who the hell told them that would be the case?! Training, consistency, making yourself more interesting than anything else solidifies recall. Bribe if needed!


----------



## Clodagh (14 August 2016)

cinnamontoast said:



			Who the hell told them that would be the case?! Training, consistency, making yourself more interesting than anything else solidifies recall. Bribe if needed!
		
Click to expand...

The Pets at Home vet clinic that they attend!


----------



## Thistle (14 August 2016)

Poor poor little dog, he'll be crippled was before he is old, over exercise and early castration are not a good mix


----------



## Clodagh (14 August 2016)

He doesn't get any normal walks, we were putting up a chiller in the yard yesterday for our keeper who does a lot of stalking (if you have never built a walk in chiller, I suggest you never start, no matter what it costs pay someone else to put it up).... and I saw him being taken for his morning walk, it is literally out of sight of the hens then off the lead while he does his stuff then back on the lead and home.


----------



## Cinnamontoast (14 August 2016)

Clodagh said:



			The Pets at Home vet clinic that they attend!
		
Click to expand...

On another forum, someone was puzzling over why anybody would take advice from the 'YTS' lot at Pets at Home! 

That poor dog, it appalls me to think of him when I think how over cautious we were with ours.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (14 August 2016)

cinnamontoast said:



			On another forum, someone was puzzling over why anybody would take advice from the 'YTS' lot at Pets at Home! 

.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think thats entirely fair. A friend locums at one-and she's certainly not YTS (think certs, 15 years in practice plus now a PhD-also against neutering young as routine). She says the treatment protocols and pricing structures are better and more consistent  than in other more traditional practices that she's worked in. I am not pro corporate practices but there here now.

I don't hold with early neutering but P@H wouldn't be the only vets to want to neuter young. If these owners went in and said they were having behavioural issues etc, a vet is likely to say neutering is an option. And to be honest, with these owners it does sound like the only option a vet could suggest as training doesn't seem to be one!


----------



## Mince Pie (14 August 2016)

Thistle said:



			Poor poor little dog, he'll be crippled was before he is old, over exercise and early castration are not a good mix
		
Click to expand...

Well, someone needs to tell that to my dog. 10 year old collie, came to me at 6 months almost totally feral having been running loose in a farm pack his entire life. Was immediately snipped and I figured that restricting his exercise at that point (with the vets in full awareness and not advising against it) was pointless. Still hares round like a look and according to the x-rays taken a couple of years ago had the cleanest joints the vet had seen in a dog of his age.

ETA: because he buggered off after a bitch in heat not because I thought it would suddenly make him recall


----------



## Alec Swan (14 August 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I don't think thats entirely fair. A friend locums at one-and she's certainly not YTS (think certs, 15 years in practice plus now a PhD-also against neutering young as routine). She says the treatment protocols and pricing structures are better and more consistent  than in other more traditional practices that she's worked in. I am not pro corporate practices but there here now.

&#8230;&#8230;.. !
		
Click to expand...

Locums,  in my experience,  rarely if ever provide a service which is of value,  be that for two legged or four legged patients.  With our animals,  whether it's the lack of communication between the patient or the owner,  I'm unsure,  but it's never yet seemed to work.  It also seems to me that advanced academia advances the aspect of 'distance'.

Alec.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (14 August 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Locums,  in my experience,  rarely if ever provide a service which is of value,  be that for two legged or four legged patients.  With our animals,  whether it's the lack of communication between the patient or the owner,  I'm unsure,  but it's never yet seemed to work.  It also seems to me that advanced academia advances the aspect of 'distance'.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Well of course you do Alec, your response doesn't surprise me whatsoever. Of course studying something for years leaves people less qualified than those who haven't, stands to reason. Also shows a complete lack of knowledge of what further education entails.


----------



## Alec Swan (14 August 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			Well of course you do Alec, your response doesn't surprise me whatsoever. Of course studying something for years leaves people less qualified than those who haven't, stands to reason. Also shows a complete lack of knowledge of what further education entails.
		
Click to expand...

So why is it then that all so often we find that the greater the level of education,  the less the display of simple common sense? 

nb.  That's 'often',  not 'always'! 

Alec.


----------



## Mince Pie (14 August 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			Well of course you do Alec, your response doesn't surprise me whatsoever. Of course studying something for years leaves people less qualified than those who haven't, stands to reason. Also shows a complete lack of knowledge of what further education entails.
		
Click to expand...

Actually he does have a bit of a point, how often have we seen someone studying for 2-3 years at college yet still has no practical skills whatsoever? Yes of course studying for years will give you knowledge, but practical knowledge is sometimes just as valuable. And there are some truly shocking vets out there.


----------



## PucciNPoni (15 August 2016)

Mince Pie said:



			Actually he does have a bit of a point, how often have we seen someone studying for 2-3 years at college yet still has no practical skills whatsoever? Yes of course studying for years will give you knowledge, but practical knowledge is sometimes just as valuable. And there are some truly shocking vets out there.
		
Click to expand...

that is sometimes the case but not the rule. 

I think one needs to consider that sometimes what is said by a professional is misinterpreted or twisted by the layperson owners.  It happens time and again, I've seen it, heard and find that just because an owner said "my vet/groomer/behaviourist said........" doesn't mean that was said, in the correct context.


----------



## Exploding Chestnuts (15 August 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Locums,  in my experience,  rarely if ever provide a service which is of value,  be that for two legged or four legged patients.  With our animals,  whether it's the lack of communication between the patient or the owner,  I'm unsure,  but it's never yet seemed to work.  It also seems to me that advanced academia advances the aspect of 'distance'.

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

Gosh, when  called a vet during the strangles, I had to combat the practice vet [ #The Strangles Outbreak nominated vet] 
I had to tell her that what I wanted was a vet asap, "not here to discuss the temperature of a [potentially dying horse", and after he was recovered, and I rang her again,  she said he did not need any feed /special care as he was eating GRASS, omg I could go on.
The locum was fantastic, he showed me the problems,and we both  agreed on antibiotic, in order to save horses life, meanwhile I expect the useless vet was enjoying her weekend off.
In the end, I just told the practice sec straight out , this vet must not come here again.  I had already told the Senior partner that I was not happy with her knowledge, he told me had full confidence in his employee. 


I have 40 years experience of horses, yet, they ignore my observations, this would not happen when dealing with a World Class Vet  Practice, [as I am used to], they listen to you, and look at horse,and they then make a prognosis.  Local vets can be useless. Rant over.


----------



## Cinnamontoast (15 August 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			I don't think thats entirely fair. A friend locums at one-and she's certainly not YTS (think certs, 15 years in practice plus now a PhD-also against neutering young as routine). She says the treatment protocols and pricing structures are better and more consistent  than in other more traditional practices that she's worked in.
		
Click to expand...

Sigh. I didn't mean the vets. I hardly think they're YTS. :rolleyes3:


----------



## MotherOfChickens (16 August 2016)

cinnamontoast said:



			Sigh. I didn't mean the vets. I hardly think they're YTS. :rolleyes3:
		
Click to expand...

oh, I am sorry-just thought it was leading on from Clodagh's post


----------



## Aru (16 August 2016)

Whats a YTS?


----------



## MotherOfChickens (16 August 2016)

Aru said:



			Whats a YTS?
		
Click to expand...

Youth Training Scheme. Some of us are showing our age  it was big in the 80s to get 16yos off the dole (back when we could leave school at 16). Had a bad reputation but kept kids off the streets while paying them really badly.


----------



## Aru (16 August 2016)

Ah that I get it now! 

On a side noted though.why is it people happily accept the castration of most male horse often well before maturity but have issues with the idea of male dogs being done at a similar life stage?Genuine question btw!its one thats always made me wonder.


----------



## Aru (16 August 2016)

I may be bias though.
Il quite happily desex from 8 weeks in dogs and cats and have done said operations a lot while working with rescues.
Definitely a dramatically faster operation... with much faster recovery times for the pups even compared to the mature dog castration and an dramatically less traumatic operation for young bitches.......I genuinely wouldnt hestitate to do it to my own animals having done both ways....unless obviously it was a female of a breed predisposed to issues like a golden retriever...and even with the like of a rottie or gsd I would very strongly consider it depending on breed lines and confirmation and even there I'd generally only be waiting until after the first season unless I had access to the likes of a laproscope to make it an easier op on the older bitch.
Desexing between 4-6 months is the norm where Im currently working in Australia and has been that way for years...its quite rare to meet a non desexed animal unless they are being used for breeding.....or a stray dog...usually fitting the stereotype of male and staffy and unregistered sadly.

We see a different range of issues here due to that neutered demographic as well...rare to see a pyo or mammary tumours..do have more issues with obesity and its related diseases etc...Its been a very interesting culture shock compared to semi rural mixed practice at home!

....but its defintley made me change my stance on desexing...I used to be very pro waiting until mature..but having seen the other side and how much easier it is on the animals involved and when your talking such small statistics for most of the issues involved with desexing young and knowing the differences its been difficult to recommend waiting when most people just want the easiest option for their pet dog..... Usually end up having a long chat in puppy consults about the pros and cons of all options and then let owners decide.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (16 August 2016)

Aru said:



			Ah that I get it now! 

On a side noted though.why is it people happily accept the castration of most male horse often well before maturity but have issues with the idea of male dogs being done at a similar life stage?Genuine question btw!its one thats always made me wonder.
		
Click to expand...

don't know-I've long thought it a shame and that it has similar effects wrt growth, growth rates, overall look and possibly character.  Apart from one horse I have now, who was done at 18 months and beyond my control somewhat, all my others have been castrated either at 3 or 4 years of age. I guess in the UK we just aren't used to managing colts/stallions on the whole.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (16 August 2016)

Aru said:



			. with much faster recovery times for the pups even compared to the mature dog castration and an dramatically less traumatic operation for young bitches.
		
Click to expand...

so why are ovariectomies not more common if the normal spay is so traumatic? And I'm not doubting it must be,I just don't understand why the alternative isn't more available.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (16 August 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			don't know-I've long thought it a shame and that it has similar effects wrt growth, growth rates, overall look and possibly character.  Apart from one horse I have now, who was done at 18 months and beyond my control somewhat, all my others have been castrated either at 3 or 4 years of age. I guess in the UK we just aren't used to managing colts/stallions on the whole.
		
Click to expand...

was going to edit but couldnt so

eta because the UK isn't set up for colts, people have to have them done before they are a problem as there are few alternatives. Seems a shame when you go to Portugal and see bachelor herds running about until they are three.


----------



## Aru (16 August 2016)

It takes a similar amount of time to do both (I've done both in cats while working for a continental vet)simply because you end up doing the same amount of ligatures to tie off the vessels in both operations...tecnically you would be using more by just removing the ovaries as both uterine horns would need to be tied off as well as the arteries instead of just the uterine body down by the cervix.

Most people training in the uk will remove the uterus rather then leave it. Partly as it no longer serves any purpose to the dog and partly due to it being the norm here and expected in a bitch spey...also theres an element of fear of complications with the uterine body down the line unlikley though they are once the ovaries hormonal control is gone..

Most importantly its the drawing up of the ovaries from their spot beside the kidneys ...so deep in the abdominal cavity... that is the most traumatic part in a bitch spey. As you have to break down the ligament holding them in place and then take them high enough out of the chest to triple clamp and ligate the arteries...in a deep chested dog where they are sitting very deeply in the chest thats not easy in a mature animal...and there is a not insignificant risk of bleeding from a mature organ due to the mature arteries suppling the mature ovaries and uterus...the uterine body and uterine arterys in comparison are much easier to tie off and remove then those deep seated ovaries as they are sitting just beside the incison site you once have sorted the ovaries..Its also obviously a larger incision site to be able to reach into the chest to locate and break the ligament on said ovaries in a mature dog esp the larger ones as well.

In a immature animal theres a much reduced blood supply running to the organs as they have not become mature and engorged. it is much easier to reach the ovaries due to a smaller body size....and puppies are very rarely fat so its a clean incision through the muscle layers and theres no abdominal fat around the oragn leaking blood and making ligatures less likely to hold either.....
making it a much less traumatic operation with less tissue handling, much reduced anesthetic time, reduced risk of serious bleeding from the arteries and a smaller incision size for the dog....
meaning a quicker recovery time with less pain and aches from deep tissue handling for a pet.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (16 August 2016)

thank you Aru, you are one of a few that bothers to explain properly rather than just saying 'there's no need to' or 'thats just what we do'!. I can see a more obvious need for speying a bitch than castrating a dog young as a matter of routine given what you've said but do wonder about more long term effects. Afraid I'll not rush into castration of a dog early on again though. (sorry for hijack OP!)


----------



## Clodagh (16 August 2016)

No worries, it is very interesting. I left Australia 20 years ago and even then they were castrating puppies over there, whereas in my family at least you didn't de sex anything (in Enlgand this is) male or female.
I did think, in my limited experience, that animals castrated as puppies always behaved like puppies, they tended to always act like pups with other dogs, which I am not keen on.
It may be that is not normal and only the few I saw. Aru? your thoughts?:


----------



## Aru (16 August 2016)

Honestly....I havent noticed that with dogs here so far.
I have found dogs here in general to be better socialised and better behaved in public (as the are brought and accpeted in most areas bar specific beaches) then was the norm in the uk when I visited and definately much better then the vast majority in any of the area's in Ireland where I worked. That may be as most are housedogs in the area I work...relatively urban but to hot and to high risk of snakes ticks etc for most people to be leaving the dog unsupervised in the garden all day so they do tend to be out and about being socialised...or it may be because puppy school etc are extremely popular here..more unusual not to go then to do it regardless of dog experience level ....but I genuinely havent found dogs here acting puppish with eachother once mature...but that may be just the area Im in....beach and outdoor lifestyle means dogs are expected to be pretty social on dog leash free areas..but well behaved and capable of sitting under a table in public...reminds me of the continent that way!
We still have plenty of fear and dog aggressive dogs....but they tend to be well leashed and not brought to off leash areas etc...have only seen 2 or 3 proper dog on dog fight victims as well here...which is nothing compared to the what I was used to in Ireland....and considering how many more dogs are in public here its pretty impressive.
Punishment for having a unregistered or nuisance dog is pretty severe though as well...so id imagine that is also a factor...

Its a very different culture tbh...so hard to compare....and at the moment im dogless and just watching in envy rather then dealing with other strange dogs daily as well.
Its something il be watching for more now out of curiosity!


----------



## Alec Swan (16 August 2016)

Aru said:



			I may be bias though.
Il quite happily desex from 8 weeks in dogs &#8230;&#8230;.. .
		
Click to expand...

Whilst I'll bow to your qualifications as a vet,  I really cannot accept your stance.  I don't know of one canine vet here (or none that I would deal with) who would support your position on carrying out such operations on such very young puppies.

There is more than just anecdotal evidence to suggest that any dog which is to be neutered should be allowed to develop and reach the stage,  in human terms,  of puberty.

I'll be quite truthful Aru,  you've shocked and saddened me and to the point where I believe the practice of such intervention,  and at such a young age,  is shameful.  Even the RCVS here,  a body given to 'persuasion' are staunchly opposed to what you would do.

Alec.


----------



## Alec Swan (16 August 2016)

As a footnote,  it seems that I'm not alone in my aversion to Aru's statement;

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...52ASZXnMiXJlmvyMQ&sig2=-HvP9mFceQmVfDGSf2sLfQ

Our very own AAD from 5 years ago.  I would hope that all others ignore the advice which Aru has offered.

Alec.


----------



## Cinnamontoast (17 August 2016)

Aru said:



			Ah that I get it now! 

On a side noted though.why is it people happily accept the castration of most male horse often well before maturity but have issues with the idea of male dogs being done at a similar life stage?Genuine question btw!its one thats always made me wonder.
		
Click to expand...

Cos yards don't accept colts.  

I have yet to read a decent study that lauds neutering early.  All the advice I've read is to allow the dog to mature naturally.  Testosterone helps close the growth plates.  I see no advantage to neutering a very young pup.


----------



## Aru (17 August 2016)

I didn't expect it to be popular statement Alec but I seeing as do early castrations and speys(generally 4-6 months as a rule) and have done the very early desexings while working with a rescue I figured I would offer the otherside of the coin esp as its not something seen or done often in the uk.

This is a common scenario in Australia and has been this way for years......and like I said above....and having met a massive range of different dogs who have all been desexed young I have not seen the massive range of issues that people worry about with early desexing....as most of the concerns and stats availibale are to do with small percentage chance changes in relatively uncommon problems.


To be honest its been massive surprise because I was not trained in oz and had come with the attitude of waiting is better for various reasons ....

but Im just not seeing the evidence that early neutering is a bad idea in the dogs I meet everyday....

Here it is normal and expected to desex your dog and they encourage desexing young before sexual maturity and they do push responsible breding and pet ownership.
registration with council,which is compulsary, is significantly cheaper if they are desexed and registration starts at 6 months.
desexing is more expensive in an older female animal.
In order to sell puppies legally you need to be a registered breeder and meet certain standards to be registered. 
All dogs are ment to be chipped before they can be legally sold. 
"Mistake" litters are relatively uncommon in my area and we are the cheapest in the area for a litter vaccines so we see more puppy vaccs then most.....strays tend to be dogs who have actually just escaped rather then being dumped.
 Most dogs are chipped and registered so end up home from us rather then the wardens impounding as long as the details on the chip are current..the entire system here encourages the responsible ownership of dogs and they consider desexing as normal....and tbh from what ive seen so far its been a much better system for animal welfare...there are still issues but compared to where I worked in Ireland its an entirely different scale of a problem..and I dont work in the burbs...and I work in a pretty deprived lower socioeconomic area.

Most dogs are house pets rather then working dogs or guard dogs and the breed choice reflects that...pigging dogs are a class apart from this but thankfully uncommon where I am.
Most puppies here go to a puppy school and dogs are expected to be out and about and are welcomed with bowls etc outside most cafes so are heavily socialised from a young age....yes we do obviously still see behavioural and temperment issues ocasionally....but in most cases socialisation and good management ie  treating the dog like a dog seems to have a much larger impact then removing the sex organs regardless of when its done imo....

Perhaps my stance will change in time but at the moment its my opinion from what I'm current  experience.....

Its been a very interesting thing to experience both sides.

Given that its such an unpopular stance in the UK and you will get annilated online and potentially draw the attention of the rabid animal rights activists for admitted such practices in the UK (as the rspca have discovered) it would be very difficult to find a vet who would be foolish enough to admit its a good idea while working in the UK...its against the public popular perception.

Im just sharing my experiences on the matter......like everything else I say it on here its my personal opinion based on my experiences so far.

Would I desex my own male or female dog at 8 weeks...no I wouldnt..with a male I would wait and see how they mature and see if hes is driven sexually or not..there arent enough health benifits to justify whipping them off young for health alone....but it does reduce some nuisance behaviours in the same way it does in colts...so its not without merit in each individual cicumstance.if nessecary to desex for whatever reason I would still be happy to do it young.

As for a female dog. I would be happy to do mine young (4 months on)or after the first season(depending on breed) because I do large mature dog bitch speys and have no desire to do that to my own dog if it can be avoided.
If i had a older breeding bitch of a large breed dog who needed speying I would be hunting down someone with a laproscope to do the job.

I offer the pros and cons to people daily....and tbh from experience can say the average pet owner just tends to want the easiest and cheapest option in most cases....so we offer the current options.

We do also do offer the implant etc for the dogs we have concerns about desexing for various reasons(fear aggression/nervous temperment etc) its not a that we advise castrate everything regardles of circumstance ...but its rarely taken up due to cost concerns.behaviorist to train the owner how to handle the dog is usually the next step in those cases.

The 8 week olders desexing I have done are pups in rescue btw...considering the desire in most rescue centres is at the end of the day to reduce pet overpopulation I can see why they do it. I have met a enough pregnant and entire rescue dogs who were ment to be desexed at 6 months...but the owner hadnt got around to it...and often seems to have no intentions of doing so... to see why that policy is becoming more popular.
People lie....and considering how many rescue pups are returned at adolescence anyway it makes more sense to have them done so they cant contribute further to the overpopulation problem.... but thats looking a the dogs as stock and making population choices rather then individual ones which again is a very unpopular opionion in the Uk.

As for breeders doing it....that I have a bit of an ethical issue niggle with as they have chosen to breed the dogs ....but again I can see why...it does prevent pups ending up in puppy farms and byb situtations and weeds out the people who only want to buy to breed and make money as opposed to those who do just want a pet...so I can see both sides...here they will sell undesexed puppies to other registered breeders but desexed to pet homes as a rule....I dont do breeder desexings eitherway where I work.


----------



## Aru (17 August 2016)

And yes desexing does affect the growth plates and closure if done before maturity....just like in horses who are castrated the dogs do often do end up leggier and less compact .... And yes it can increase the risk of certain disease's...I'm not saying desexing is without risk...... The issues is the main studies talk about issues that are multifactorial and there is a massive issue with doing these studies due to choice of dogs... but we are getting feedback on the statiatic chances..
with elongated long bones the risk of cruciate disease is theoretically higher as it alters confirmation in the stifle ....
Hip dysplasia also was indicated in some studies though they havent elaborated massively on exactly why that is the case.
According to research as well as some of the uncommon tumours(heart based tumours) are more common in desexed dogs versus entire...all recorded and mentioned in studies. 
Certain diseases are more common in male verus female and desexed versus non desexed.that is all true....

The issues and potential for massive problems with this sort of research however is the choice of subjects for research.its done at third level..so university hospitals.. but given that these issues are mutifactorial with many influencing factors including genetics, breed, diet, confirmation,exercise levels etc.....these issues need to be considered as a broader picture....how many puppies desexed young in these studies came from tested breeding stock? 
how many had ideal confirmation to start with versus an entire dog at the same age?
How many entire dogs ended up being studied versus desexed?
Why were they chosen and avalaible for testing at a third level vet institute like Davies in the usa?

Entire dogs that end up in research studies in a uni level are often dogs that are owned by someone who has judged them as desireable to breed from...and an owner whos up-to-date with health research and is at university level of testing with their dogs.....these generally dogs are not generally generic pets who happen to be entire.

In contrast desexed dogs have often already been judged as not fit for breeding as young pups ...either as they come from untested parents etc....or because they didnt meet show standards...they are pets.....and most will have ended up at a uni hospital for screening due to concerns....so its not really a like for like comparison is it? 

The main problem with the studies we have is that the average undesexed dog is not at a 3rd level referral centre in the USA being added to research studies..only the optimum ones are....the ones worth breeding from and you would defiantely expect them to be healthier in confirmation and general health then your desexed and much loved pets simply as they are breeding stock. 
We generally desex the dogs who arent fit for breeding.
The desexed dogs ending up in these studies tend to be pets with diligent owners who have brought them to a 3rd level institution....but not nessecarily fit for breeding dogs....

A lot of these studies are also using dogs with genetic predispositions towards issues as well which isn't helping as unless you own one of the breeds in question...ie Golden Retrievers, Rottweilers and Germans shepards have all been involved in some of the larger studies...
which is great because it shows the that people care about improving those breeds and given they are having massive issues with bone cancer in rotties and neutered dogs do appear to be more likely to have an osteosarcoma.....its very relevant if you own a Rottie...and if you own a Rottie you should be worried about bone tumours in the same way id you own a great dane you should be worried about Bloat....its pretty likely your dog will be prediposed to that issue.
 All types of tumours are becoming issues in Goldens esp in the Usa..in a middle aged sick golden regardless of entire or not cancer its always a concern..so I can see why these were breeds where owners wanted to get involved and start testing and will do whatever they can to improve the likelyhood of their dogs staying healthy...

but again the problem is its multifactorial and the people bringing their dogs of those breeds to a university research study are not your average pet owners...they are owners concerned about the breed health and interested in change which is great....but we need the average stats for the breed and thats on ground level not at the unis...to get an accurate picture of the true pros and cons.

Statitics are great....but the have to be taken with a pinch of salt.you cam swing statistics whatever way you want if you try...

Obviously I still tell inform owners of said studies when talking about desexing and options...they are readily available online....but tbh we are still waiting to see the longterm effects of the early desexing in most areas as its a relatively new practice(30 years or so)

Male horses desexed young do not seem to be surcoming en mass to massive issues with bone structure and cancer... and its an accepted practice to do to this to Colts in order to make them better pets.....so it isnt all just the influence of testosterone on oine growth and on the closure of the growth plates...its a multifactorial issue when it comes to health.

What we really need is the likes of sweden or norway to do the studies where most dogs are entire regardless of breeding potential and do a comparison there...but seeing as they will not be desexing pups young as they dont have the same dog population issues as other areas thats pretty unlikely to happen.

Until then il still just be giving owners the facts and letting them decide....but personally I see more benifits in most pet home's in desexing young then issues....a young dog is more likely to be euthanised for behavioural reasons then anything else....and young castrated dogs are often somewhat easier pets then entire for your average home..

Ive put to sleep a lot more young dogs because their owners ******ed them up and chose unsuitable pets for their lifestyles then I have for clinical diseases possibly related to castration or desexing....
Ive put down more entire  female dogs for pyos and mammary cancer then I have for cruciate rupture or hip dysplasia.

Ive seen more Rtas in male entire animals then desexed ones as there more likely to stray.Ive euthanised plenty on welfare grounds as they had catastrophic injuries.
Ive euthanised male dogs for dog aggression when the owners wont even consider castration or behavioural work instead....

most people on an internet site talking about their dogs and wanting to give them optimum health are NOT the average pet owner you meet in practice .some people simply do not care this much, they just want seem to want and easy pet they can enjoy....and the general understanding of dog behaviour in real life....is very different to here.


----------



## MurphysMinder (17 August 2016)

Interesting to read your posts Aru,  as I know that Murphy88 carried out castrations on very young pups whilst volunteering in Fiji.   Like you I think she found the surgery and recovery quicker in young animals.  I am still not convinced though can she the logic in a rescue/stray situation.   I would always wait until my GSDs have fully matured before carrying out such surgery,  though am a great believer in spaying bitches.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (17 August 2016)

Aru said:



			most people on an internet site talking about their dogs and wanting to give them optimum health are NOT the average pet owner you meet in practice .some people simply do not care this much, they just want seem to want and easy pet they can enjoy....and the general understanding of dog behaviour in real life....is very different to here.
		
Click to expand...

that's true enough. although I don't quite remember Australia as the utopia for dogs that you describe but that was nearly 20 years ago.



A couple of points though-you don't know if neutering so early is having a detrimental effect or not yet. As a vet, you only really see the 'sick' ones as they get older (pyos, mammary tumours I am thinking of here). And is it ethical to perform such invasive surgery purely as a preventative measure. The northern Europeans would disagree that it is and the older I get the more I tend to agree with them. I do take on board the longer recovery times though and its given me something to think about (I don't have a bitch though). There's also some early research showing the importance of the sex hormones in immunity which I'll try and dig out.

As for lack of socialisation of dogs in the UK-it is a big problem but not one I can link to neutering later. You can argue that the Eastern European dogs that are coming over are mostly better socialised with other dogs (though not with much else) due to being around packs of other dogs-all unneutered. Lack of socialisation is down to ignorance.


----------



## Clodagh (17 August 2016)

In Oz, when I was there, which was in MOC's era I think, was there were no strays as they got promptly shot if unclaimed after 7 days. Rescues weren't such a big thing - they probably weren't here either, then?
If you watch the RSPCA Australia program on Sky the PTS anything that shows aggression to other dogs or people as soon as it comes in, even in the case of a bitch who had just had her pups taken where perhaps you would expect a few hormones. It does limit the rehomes to amenable dogs, on the whole, and something I think they should do here. There are enough non aggressive dogs not to spend a fortune rehabbing the dangerous ones. I know that will not be a popular stance!
In the outback where I lived and worked for a year stray dogs were used as target practice, they didn't live long enough to breed.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (17 August 2016)

Clodagh said:



			In Oz, when I was there, which was in MOC's era I think, was there were no strays as they got promptly shot if unclaimed after 7 days. Rescues weren't such a big thing - they probably weren't here either, then?
		
Click to expand...

thats what I remember! and pound dogs near vet schools were used as cadaver dogs after students PTS. there was little tolerance of stray anything, cats or dogs (this is rural Queensland) and there were certainly unsocialised and aggressive dogs about but they were given a pass if they were working dogs or kept on a chain. 

I do remember 'good' dogs living to a grand age though-wasnt' uncommon to see labs making it to 16/17 and this was in the tropics or the outback. My in laws had labs and dachshunds (much to my FiL's shame lol-wherever they lived in Oz, if MiL wanted a new dachs, the whole family would travel 1000s of km to get a new one). None of their male dogs were neutered except for the kelpie and all lived to 14+. The kelpie was a psycho-he was my OH's dog (he's a SA vet) and could not be trusted with anyone not immediate family. 



There were rescues here back then, I grew up near Woodgreen where I got my first dog as an adult. The collies came from a more backyard type of rescue (a malamute breeder of all things. I didnt know any better). And Battersea, Blue Cross and RSPCA. But not this amount of small ones or ones for foreign dogs.

I wasn't really aware of Dog's Trust back then. Dog's Trust do employ fulltime people to go out to schools and talk about dogs, their needs, costs, socialisation etc which is admirable but a drop in the ocean.


----------



## Aru (17 August 2016)

Sorry Oz is far from the Utopia Ive made it sound....the good bits are very good but there are plenty of bad bits to balance it out!
Piging ie using dogs to hunt feral pigs...leaving them mangled and owners using staple guns on tusk wounds on their animals  etc is also present in my areas we just dont see them often.

The greyhound industry managed to have bad enough practices that they just banned the sport entirely in new south wales...
And outside the urban areas things are worse then where I am...
They do happily shoot anything feral on sight...dogs cats rabbits pigs etc..

The pounds also can pts after 7 days if unchipped and 14 days if chipped and unclaimed...
They will not rehome certain breeds regardless of tempermwnt and have no tolerance for aggression.... at all.

They will hold longer then the set timeframes if theres space in my local one if they think the dogs are rehomable and do work with rescues.... I wasnt exaggerating about how good they are for getting things home with chips and social media though..there are only 2 animals in my local pound....two...and both already have a space in rescue if unclaimed.
Thats pretty impressive compared to where I worked in Ireland! Constant calls for help from the rescue for death row dogs was the norm....a cull of the unluck ones still at the pound was the norm every ten days or so as it was always pretty full..owner surrenders were pts the same day as surrendered.....and this was a pound that worked with a rescue and the warden had even set up links to send some dogs to sweden for rehoming....it wasnt from lack of trying that they had killed so many dogs...it was just due to volume...the oz system that promotes desexing and enforces registration etc does produces less volume.

Perhaps its my Irish experience thats left me quite anti pet overpopularion now that I think about it...


----------



## Aru (17 August 2016)

Ps apologies for completely derailing the thread btw.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (17 August 2016)

I think if you are really battling the frontline of many dogs being PTS/rehomed etc etc and dealing with the sort of owner that just wants a dog, and will get one regardless, I can see why neutering young can be seen as the lesser of two evils even though I resent the choice being taken out of my hands with rescue organisations.
When I go to Portugal for example, I see so many stray dogs, noone neuters and too few people care-they abandon one dog and go straight out and get another. I don't understand it.


----------



## Aru (17 August 2016)

Also quite happy to have people link imfo on the pros and cons btw...im constantly researching and trying to keep up with advancing ideas so more interesting info is always good.

As for the only seeing the old sick dogs....we try to see our oldies twice yearly and more often then that with pain managing pain clinics for oa etc
we run a care program so once a set fee is paid yearly all consults are "free" and annual blood testing and dental if required is included ...medications are at a reduced rate and lots of other benefits...means we see the oldies more often because the cost concern is reduced like that....So I dont think its that we are only seeing the sick elderly dogs at crisis point....though that does happen as well.But its like anything il never know an animal and how they are coping as well as their owner will!

I would respectfully disagree and argue that the chances of a pyometra in old age are to significant to dismiss and leave to chance in a female dog. 

I know the northern europeans disagree on this.and there dog controls system is also very impressive...but they live in a system where pyo is a common disease so owners tend to be aware of the risk and catch the issues earlier then here where the general public are not as aware of the risk.
The stats for pyos in elderly dogs are very high in northern europe as far as Im aware.

An emergency pyo spey on a sick elderly dog is much more invasive then a normal spey..... as your removing a pus filled uterus and still trying to spey the dog(see previously post on the issues with speying older dogs)in an old animal who is often clinically very unwell from the infection....and as older dogs they are much more likely to have other factors at play as well as a pyo (kidney/liver issues heart murmurs lung problems etc)making an anaethetic much riskier and recovery times much longer.....if they make it though the operation.
 Pyometra carries a very real of death even when treated appropriately....
It is quite frankly the biggest health reason for speying.


----------



## MotherOfChickens (17 August 2016)

I wasn't saying it was too insignificant to dismiss, just that according to some-its not a definite outcome as some might lead you to believe and that it (no routine neutering) apparently works elsewhere. I understand an emergency pyo is more dangerous than a routine spay and I would never tell someone to not spay their bitch or even suggest it-their animal, their choice. I've never bought a bitch puppy so have never made the choice, the bitches I've had were both done before I got them.

But there are lots of show and working dogs about that aren't neutered so was wondering what happens there I guess. I am sure there are very experienced breeders and workers of dogs who would add to the discussion. Personally I would always neuter a bitch after a lot of research earlier this year after being offered an unneutered 4yo bitch (by a vet that doesn't believe in neutering  who got me to thinking about it in the first place), just wouldnt do it at 3 months.


----------



## Mince Pie (17 August 2016)

I think they are supposed to be shown entire?


----------



## Clodagh (17 August 2016)

I remember the roo dogs being disembowelled and watching someone once shove the innards back in and sew the belly up himself. If he hadn't the dog would have died though. Amazingly it was fine, not even any infection and there was certainly no attempt at sterility.
It is a different attitute I suppose, dogs were there to work and they worked hard. The men were hard too, 'gone troppo' we used to say, they didn't treat the dogs any worse than they treated their wives, on the whole.
*Derailing even further*


----------



## MurphysMinder (17 August 2016)

Mince Pie said:



			I think they are supposed to be shown entire?
		
Click to expand...

You can show a neutered dog,  just have to write and inform the KC.   A judge isn't supposed to penalise but I don't often think a castrated male will be placed above an entire male of equal merit.  In bitches of course its not so easy to tell and I think quite a few spayed bitches have won well.


----------



## Aru (18 August 2016)

Apologies the written word comes across harsher sometimes!that reads back harsher then I ment it....I'm not doubting that you understand pyo is bad etc.

Personally I dont see the point of running entire versus neutered dogs in the same classes at a show.
If your trying to chose the best confirmation and breedlines you want...then surely the point is that you are chosing the genetics you want to continue with... so a neutered animal shouldnt be placed above an entire as they cant reproduce and pass on their conformation and temperment...
I can see why you would see neutered animals competing with eachother though!


----------



## Kaylum (18 August 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			Youth Training Scheme. Some of us are showing our age  it was big in the 80s to get 16yos off the dole (back when we could leave school at 16). Had a bad reputation but kept kids off the streets while paying them really badly.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry your wrong.  Youth Training Scheme is exactly the same as the apprenticeship scheme today.   Place given within the work environment and a college place.  It helped a lot of young people get into the work environment and get extra qualifications.  Its ok to do an apprenticeship today and not stay on at 6th form well it was the same then.  Please remember that.

To the people that say the Locum vets are YTS people why would you even say that?  What is the point of saying that?  Are you saying YTS people are rubbish?  Are you saying the vets are rubbish?  One of our senior managers (IT) went on a YTS and worked his say up.  Or should we say apprenticeship.  Please be careful who you label and what you say about people.


----------



## Clodagh (18 August 2016)

Kaylum said:



			Sorry your wrong.  Youth Training Scheme is exactly the same as the apprenticeship scheme today.   Place given within the work environment and a college place.  It helped a lot of young people get into the work environment and get extra qualifications.  Its ok to do an apprenticeship today and not stay on at 6th form well it was the same then.  Please remember that.
		
Click to expand...

YTS was a good thing. A lot of my friends did it and had good careers as a result, with banks and insurance companies. Cheaper than college or uni.


----------



## CorvusCorax (18 August 2016)

Aru said:



			Personally I dont see the point of running entire versus neutered dogs in the same classes at a show.
If your trying to chose the best confirmation and breedlines you want...then surely the point is that you are chosing the genetics you want to continue with... so a neutered animal shouldnt be placed above an entire as they cant reproduce and pass on their conformation and temperment...
		
Click to expand...

You would think that but sadly the norm is to judge 'the dog before you on the day' with no access to pedigree or health results.
Showing isn't a breed selection process in a lot of cases, it's 'Looks nice = shiny stuff'. 

I come from a show background by the way.

**even bigger derailment**


----------



## MotherOfChickens (18 August 2016)

Kaylum said:



			Sorry your wrong.  Youth Training Scheme is exactly the same as the apprenticeship scheme today.   Place given within the work environment and a college place.  It helped a lot of young people get into the work environment and get extra qualifications.  Its ok to do an apprenticeship today and not stay on at 6th form well it was the same then.  Please remember that.
		
Click to expand...

well, that's me told! sorry, but it did have a terrible reputation in its day and was the butt of many jokes but as with all these things, obviously not justified across the board.  My post was meant somewhat tongue in cheek as I left school at 16 myself. I went to work as a working pupil for no wages, just room and board. 

I am a big fan of apprenticeships and hope to be able to provide one myself but I am not a big fan of paying people ridiculously low wages just because they are training.

Its seems to not be the norm these days for people to leave at 16 which is a shame. In my school, it was weirder to stay on to sixth form back in the 80s, but then, it was a terrible school. 

*wonders how far I can push derailment further *  (sorry Clodagh, I will stop now)


----------



## Aru (18 August 2016)

Continuing on the the derailment...

I do get the comment about locums being less the ideal...having been a locum on and off..... its very different to being a GP..as a gp  you know and understand the history of the patient..as you have experienced it with the owner and written the notes...you have an idea of where you are planning to go next if x doesnt work and usually have a good rapport with the owner so can explain why you think x would be a good idea...and know what concerns are likely to be raised and the owners experience and understanding level before you even walk into the room....you also are aware of the mulitple other issues and drugs the patients are on now and have had in the past and how easy or difficult x or y will be for the owner to administer....on so its easier to make choices without having to wade through an entire tx...

As a locum you are at the mercy of someones else notes and have a hostile owner who really wishes their vet was there...and they are right... continuity of care is extremly important....and thats one thing vets seem to be doing better then docs at the moment....

derails thread further by mentioning how people now have multiple specialists and departments on their cases when they have multiple health issues...which can lead to issues esp when adding new drugs etc as communicating appropriately with the other medicine departments in some cases seems to be a bit poor in some cases..

.....it is easier when theres one person who knows and understands whats going on...and a locum often isnt going to be that person.....


----------



## satinbaze (18 August 2016)

MurphysMinder said:



			You can show a neutered dog,  just have to write and inform the KC.   A judge isn't supposed to penalise but I don't often think a castrated male will be placed above an entire male of equal merit.  In bitches of course its not so easy to tell and I think quite a few spayed bitches have won well.
		
Click to expand...

The reason that castrated males don't get placed at KC shows is because every breed standard states "male animals should have 2 aparantly nirmal testicles fully descended into the scrotum"
IMHO we should have neuter classes at shows and you should be able to make up a neuter champion after all this is what happens at cat shows. Neuters become premiers, entires become champions they then challenge for best in show.


----------



## Clodagh (18 August 2016)

I think the thread should just wander whither it will...who knows where we will end up!


----------



## MotherOfChickens (18 August 2016)

Clodagh said:



			I think the thread should just wander whither it will...who knows where we will end up!
		
Click to expand...

cool


----------



## Alec Swan (18 August 2016)

Aru said:



			Continuing on the the derailment...

I do get the comment about locums being less the ideal...having been a locum on and off..... its very different to being a GP..as a gp  you know and understand the history of the patient..as you have experienced it with the owner and written the notes...you have an idea of where you are planning to go next if x doesnt work and usually have a good rapport with the owner so can explain why you think x would be a good idea...and know what concerns are likely to be raised and the owners experience and understanding level before you even walk into the room....you also are aware of the mulitple other issues and drugs the patients are on now and have had in the past and how easy or difficult x or y will be for the owner to administer....on so its easier to make choices without having to wade through an entire tx...

As a locum you are at the mercy of someones else notes and have a hostile owner who really wishes their vet was there...and they are right... continuity of care is extremly important....and thats one thing vets seem to be doing better then docs at the moment....

derails thread further by mentioning how people now have multiple specialists and departments on their cases when they have multiple health issues...which can lead to issues esp when adding new drugs etc as communicating appropriately with the other medicine departments in some cases seems to be a bit poor in some cases..

.....it is easier when theres one person who knows and understands whats going on...and a locum often isnt going to be that person.....
		
Click to expand...

Whilst you and I have a fundamental and an irreversible stance on the neutering of very young puppies,  you've offered a word-perfect synopsis of the problem which both locums and owners face.  The locum vet,  having no knowledge of the owner,  nor being able to properly assess any owner-offered statement,  will be in as much of a quandary with the owner,  as probably the animal!  It's a Catch 22 isn't it?!

Alec.


----------



## Mince Pie (18 August 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Whilst you and I have a fundamental and an irreversible stance on the neutering of very young puppies,  you've offered a word-perfect synopsis of the problem which both locums and owners face.  The locum vet,  having no knowledge of the owner,  nor being able to properly assess any owner-offered statement,  will be in as much of a quandary with the owner,  as probably the animal!  It's a Catch 22 isn't it?!

Alec.
		
Click to expand...

However, I've sometimes found that the locum, because they don't have previous knowledge of a case, tend to be more open minded and look at things from outside the box.


----------



## Alec Swan (18 August 2016)

Clodagh said:



			I think the thread should just wander whither it will...who knows where we will end up!
		
Click to expand...

There's a world of difference between 'derailment' and 'moving on'.  This thread has moved on from the your batty tenants,  thankfully!  I'll admit that I'm not too good with idiot owners of horses,  dogs OR children!  I'm surprised that you've kept quiet! 

Alec.


----------



## Cinnamontoast (18 August 2016)

Kaylum said:



			Sorry your wrong.  Youth Training Scheme is exactly the same as the apprenticeship scheme today.   Place given within the work environment and a college place.  It helped a lot of young people get into the work environment and get extra qualifications.  Its ok to do an apprenticeship today and not stay on at 6th form well it was the same then.  Please remember that.

To the people that say the Locum vets are YTS people why would you even say that?  What is the point of saying that?  Are you saying YTS people are rubbish?  Are you saying the vets are rubbish?  One of our senior managers (IT) went on a YTS and worked his say up.  Or should we say apprenticeship.  Please be careful who you label and what you say about people.
		
Click to expand...

Nobody said the locum vets were YTS, me and MoC cleared that one up earlier. How on earth could vets be YTS?! 

Apprenticeships are brilliant, shame the funding has dropped so drastically. YTS did have a not brilliant reputation, but I think it was an amazing opportunity for kids who weren't interested in pursuing an academically led career and yes, people did very well from it, I don't think anyone's disputing this.


----------



## PucciNPoni (18 August 2016)

Clodagh said:



			I think the thread should just wander whither it will...who knows where we will end up!
		
Click to expand...


Oh look - a butterfly!


----------



## Mince Pie (18 August 2016)

Clodagh said:



			I think the thread should just wander whither it will...who knows where we will end up!
		
Click to expand...

I wandered lonely, as a cloud?


----------



## MotherOfChickens (18 August 2016)

Squirrel!


----------



## Mince Pie (18 August 2016)

Birdie!! *dog takes off faster than Mo Farrah*


----------



## Alec Swan (18 August 2016)

MotherOfChickens said:



			Squirrel!
		
Click to expand...

Nope.  Daffodils.

Alec.


----------



## Cinnamontoast (18 August 2016)

Alec Swan said:



			Nope.  Daffodils.

Alec. 

Click to expand...

Indeed, I'm heading up that way next week for a big family thing, 17 of us in a massive house. Hopefully we'll see red squirrels! The first night is 'table night' ie bring food for everyone. Any suggestions (not chilli, someone bagged that already)


----------



## CorvusCorax (18 August 2016)

Rabbits?

Where?

Oh wow!

(CT there was a red in my mum's kitchen the other week. He's a cheeky little beggar and likes to sit on top of the post box outside the back door)


----------



## PucciNPoni (19 August 2016)

cinnamontoast said:



			Indeed, I'm heading up that way next week for a big family thing, 17 of us in a massive house. Hopefully we'll see red squirrels! The first night is 'table night' ie bring food for everyone. Any suggestions (not chilli, someone bagged that already)
		
Click to expand...

if someone's making chili, then you need corn bread to go along with it of course


----------



## Cinnamontoast (19 August 2016)

PucciNPoni said:



			if someone's making chili, then you need corn bread to go along with it of course
		
Click to expand...

Never tried this, had it in America and loved it.


----------



## Moobli (3 September 2016)

Just had a chance to wade through this thread - and glad I did.  

Firstly, Clodagh - if you could persuade them to part with their dog before he is totally broken, the police are always looking for high energy, ball driven dogs as potential search dogs.  Great working home for any dog. 

Secondly, thanks Aru for your really informative and interesting posts about your experiences on the other side of the world.  I am another one who either does not neuter her male dogs as a matter of course but will do, if necessary, at maturity.  I have only had two bitches myself though and I had both spayed at maturity because of the very real risk of a pyo later in life (as neither were to be bred from).  

My husband has kept working border collies (as well as the odd huntaway and beardie) throughout his working life and rarely has them neutered or spayed.  Last year his older working collie bitch suffered from a pyometra and had to have an emergency spay.  Thankfully she came through it okay, but it opened his eyes to the problems of keeping unspayed, non breeding bitches.  He only has one bitch currently and is considering having her spayed (by laparoscopic spay on my suggestion) in the near future.  Does anyone have any written papers that positively denounces unavoidable weight gain after spay?  He is convinced that his bitch will gain weight if she is spayed.

Having read scientific papers (will try to dig them out) about cruciate ligament issues in neutered male dogs (my neutered male show line GSD tore his CL) and also the possibility that HD is linked to early neutering (both issues in my breed - GSD) I will keep my future dogs entire.  Having said that, when my OH's bitch comes into season I am often to be heard threatening my male working GSD with two bricks as he turns into the world's worst sex pest!


----------



## Clodagh (3 September 2016)

Our bitches have gained no weight at all. They are fed very little though, people are horrified at the thermos lid of kibble they get! I'm sure your husband feeds by eye, not what it says on the bag, so will be fine. Ours put on a bit in the summer (don't we all) then get lean and mean in the shooting season.


----------



## Karran (3 September 2016)

WorkingGSD said:



			Does anyone have any written papers that positively denounces unavoidable weight gain after spay?  He is convinced that his bitch will gain weight if she is spayed.
		
Click to expand...

No papers. But I have the same struggle to keep weight on Mrs Spaniel as I did before she was spayed.


----------



## Cinnamontoast (3 September 2016)

WorkingGSD said:



			Having read scientific papers (will try to dig them out) about cruciate ligament issues in neutered male dogs (my neutered male show line GSD tore his CL) and also the possibility that HD is linked to early neutering
		
Click to expand...

And yet, my entire springer snapped both cruciates and we knew about the HD in my neutered springer before he was neutered.


----------



## Moobli (3 September 2016)

cinnamontoast said:



			And yet, my entire springer snapped both cruciates and we knew about the HD in my neutered springer before he was neutered.
		
Click to expand...

If only life (and the health of dogs) were simple, eh?


----------



## Alec Swan (3 September 2016)

Karran said:



			No papers. But I have the same struggle to keep weight on Mrs Spaniel as I did before she was spayed.





Click to expand...

Difficult to tell from the pic,  but to me she looks a tad better than 'well'!  If she shows high energy levels,  I wouldn't give her body score a second thought.

Alec.


----------



## MurphysMinder (3 September 2016)

I've had many bitches spayed over the years, never had a problem with them gaining weight. My 2 GSD bitches are both spayed, one 8 years old one 4.  Both weigh 30 kg, exactly the same weight as pre spaying .


----------

