# HOYS and the overweight debate



## irish_only (10 October 2010)

Not sure if this is the right place to post, but went to HOYS wednesday, and watched the Welsh C and D classes, and the M&M final, and also the Show hunters and final.
Why oh why are so many M&M's still overweight. The hunters I saw looked well, and given a short amount of fittening up mostly looked like they would be ready to go hunting. Sadly the same could not be said for the M&Ms, who if they came to live with me looked like they needed a change of diet and ridden work to get rid of the excess.
Do you think any judge will ever be brave enough to take a stand on this issue?


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## killikyle (10 October 2010)

Some do, but rarely the ones at the top end of the job - why is this?

It's not as if there hasn't been a lot of debate about it - some judges have even been published in H&H saying that they wouldn't put an obese pony at the top of the line - where are they at the finals?

Incidentally, who allocates the judges at HOYS - is it the pony societies/associations who are responsible or the organising committee? Whoever it is needs to bring themselves into 21st century regarding the welfare issues relating to obese horses and ponies and realise that it is not acceptable!

I detest seeing a fat animal (can you tell?) being placed over a fit one - something needs to be done!


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## tobysg (10 October 2010)

I was also there and thought they were all beautiful but I did drop into conversation with my non horsey mum how similar, in build and condition, they looked to my very fat Welsh at the moment, jokingly! 

I thought the Dartmoor/Exmoor/Shettie class was the one with more obese ponies in, in my opinion. 

We also had a laugh at Winneydene Maylower when her saddle came off in the championship gallop, just like my mare, when she's a bit porky! Happens to the best!

I was also surprised at their weight but quickly forgot as I was blown away by their beautiful heads and breathtaking movement. 

Very pleased Winneydene Mayflower took the class and Res Ch. she did a beautiful show and really held her own against the stallions. 

Fingers crossed for Pumphill Buckthorn to take Working Hunter Ch or Supreme POY!


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## brighteyes (10 October 2010)

irish_only said:



			Not sure if this is the right place to post, but went to HOYS wednesday, and watched the Welsh C and D classes, and the M&M final, and also the Show hunters and final.
Why oh why are so many M&M's still overweight. The hunters I saw looked well, and given a short amount of fittening up mostly looked like they would be ready to go hunting. Sadly the same could not be said for the M&Ms, who if they came to live with me looked like they needed a change of diet and ridden work to get rid of the excess.
Do you think any judge will ever be brave enough to take a stand on this issue?
		
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No, they won't. Sadly.  I went last year and could have wept at the obese ponies put forward in ALL showing classes, flat _and_ jumping.  Wept and cheerfully thumped their deluded and ignorant owners.  I think weighbridges and prosecutions are the way forward.


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## brighteyes (10 October 2010)

tobysg said:



			I was also there and thought they were all beautiful but I did drop into conversation with my non horsey mum how similar, in build and condition, they looked to my very fat Welsh at the moment, jokingly! 

I thought the Dartmoor/Exmoor/Shettie class was the one with more obese ponies in, in my opinion. 

We also had a laugh at Winneydene Maylower when her saddle came off in the championship gallop, just like my mare, when she's a bit porky! Happens to the best!

I was also surprised at their weight but quickly forgot as I was blown away by their beautiful heads and breathtaking movement. 

Very pleased Winneydene Mayflower took the class and Res Ch. she did a beautiful show and really held her own against the stallions. 

Fingers crossed for Pumphill Buckthorn to take Working Hunter Ch or Supreme POY!
		
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In which case you need to do something about your own pony and fast and stop having such a neutral and easily deflected attitude about the weight of a pony.

All owners of fat ponies are sowing the seeds of ill health in their animals.  They may not, unlike myself, be left with picking up the pieces after EMS wreaks havoc with the pony.

Makes me seethe.  Beautiful heads matter not when they are crippled and sweating with the pain of laminitis.  WAKE UP!!!!


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## Munchkin (10 October 2010)

Remember I asked before why this cruelty is allowed to go on in the show ring but is picked up and acted upon (mainly) in the other disciplines? Remember the responses I got?

Bring up cruelty in show jumping (i.e. excessive whip use) or dressage (i.e. Rollkur) and in the main you'll get responses from a lot of people actively competing in the same sport condemning the actions of their fellow competitors.  Bring up cruelty in showing and in the main, their fellow show riders will deny that it's cruel or, where possible, deny that it happens at all! (I posted about a pony on the yard I worked on having it's mouth cut as it was taking too much of a contact when ridden without drawreins, but apparently I'm a liar and a troll for mentioning it on here.)

Until a higher number of people actively involved in the showing world see their animals as animals rather than trophies, nothing will change.


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## killikyle (10 October 2010)

brighteyes said:



			In which case you need to do something about your own pony and fast and stop having such a neutral and easily deflected attitude about the weight of a pony.

All owners of fat ponies are sowing the seeds of ill health in their animals.  They may not, unlike myself, be left with picking up the pieces after EMS wreaks havoc with the pony.

Makes me seethe.  Beautiful heads matter not when they are crippled and sweating with the pain of laminitis.  WAKE UP!!!!

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Thank you for posting this brighteyes - saved me all the typing! Couldn't agree more. 

Am also intrigued by the comment about the saddle coming off in the gallop! So not only is it ok to potentially cripple / kill a pony due to weight associated issues, it's also absolutely fine to endanger a child - complete MADNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## edenwood (10 October 2010)

I am up against this all the time. I breed connemaras ponies and it really upsets and angers me why these judges are still putting overweight ponies at the top of the line. I concentrate on breeding for performance not showing because until this changes i do not want to be a part of it.


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## marmalade76 (10 October 2010)

I really don't understand this need for show horses to be so well covered, or the need for them to be at the very top of the height limit for their class. A show animal should be judged on its conformation, paces, manners and turnout - surely these can all be judged whether the horse is fat, lean, small or large.


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## Jane_Lou (10 October 2010)

edenwood said:



			I am up against this all the time. I breed connemaras ponies and it really upsets and angers me why these judges are still putting overweight ponies at the top of the line. I concentrate on breeding for performance not showing because until this changes i do not want to be a part of it.
		
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I used to show connemara ponies and was constantly told that my fit, well schooled ponies were very nice but needed more condition to be in the top placings. In all honesty at that time they were already carrying a little more condition than I really wanted, there was no way I would put even an ounce more on them. Two are now really retired from competition and on loan to friends who hack then and do the odd RC dressage, they are trim and looking great, the 3rd is successfully eventing and is lean and very fit. I would never go back to showing as whatever is said - fat ponies are preferred by judges to fit ponies.


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## EAST KENT (10 October 2010)

Being a Highland owner..well they are delightfully cuddley anyway;Mine has to wear a grazing muzzle in mid summer to have  any semblance of a Highland style figure.Years ago one Highland did do endurance rides,it was then that  her owner discovered that the breed does actually have ribs at all, as they could be vaguely FELT under her skin,no hope of a glimpse though.


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## tobysg (10 October 2010)

Oh dear, I replied lightheartedly and look what I got!

I just got back from putting my fat welsh out in her muzzle after coming in to straw only and exercise. 

Maybe you should read my other post regarding the welfare of my horse before telling me what to do.

In fact, carry on, it's funny! 

SORRY for ENJOYING and appreciating the quality of the horses in the Mountain and Moorland Pony of the Year.

Banter on a Sunday whilst doing my uni work )


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## irish_only (10 October 2010)

Not mentioning what breed, but I saw what should have been a very nice stallion a few years ago, and decided against using it because it moved and dished horrendously. Imagine how surprised I was 2 years later when the same stallion appeared in a stallion parade. With different owners, fit, movement straight as a die, and floating over the ground. 
Reason? No huge lumps of fat all over his body, shoulder, chest etc inhibiting his natural movement.
Wonder how much better a show animal would move without the excess pounds?


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## ihatework (10 October 2010)

tobysg said:



			Oh dear, I replied lightheartedly and look what I got!

I just got back from putting my fat welsh out in her muzzle after coming in to straw only and exercise. 

Maybe you should read my other post regarding the welfare of my horse before telling me what to do.

In fact, carry on, it's funny! 

SORRY for ENJOYING and appreciating the quality of the horses in the Mountain and Moorland Pony of the Year.

Banter on a Sunday whilst doing my uni work )
		
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Don't worry, you are not the first person Brighteye's has jumped on without asking any questions first!!! She has a very high horse.


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## Seth (10 October 2010)

ihatework said:



			Don't worry, you are not the first person Brighteye's has jumped on without asking any questions first!!! She has a very high horse.
		
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So true!


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## fuzz (10 October 2010)

OP have you ever owned an M&M and tried to get the weight off one?

I know that ponies being overweight is a major problem in showing and I agree that something needs to be done about it. But as a fell owner, I also know the amount of work and effort it can take to get these ponies to be the correct weight. When I first got my fell she was obese. I have had her for 4 years now, and she is still slightly overweight. But what else can I do. She out for a couple of hours a day with a grass mask, on minimal soaked hay when she's in at night and on minimal feed (a balancer). She is also medium/hard work.

This new scheme has only been around for a couple of years now, and we can't expect these ponies to drop down to the correct weight in a couple of months. It takes years of hard work. We forget that they were originally meant to live in the wild on almost nothing. The difference is that these ponies are now overweight, not obese so it is working but i'll will take longer with M&M's than it may with hunters or riding horses.


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## irish_only (10 October 2010)

fuzz said:



			OP have you ever owned an M&M and tried to get the weight off one?

Yes I have, and I have also looked after a M&M who I kept trim and in good order for a friend. She used to think I was being mean and not feeding enough, but now she looks after her own and realises that less is much better.

I know that ponies being overweight is a major problem in showing and I agree that something needs to be done about it. But as a fell owner, I also know the amount of work and effort it can take to get these ponies to be the correct weight. When I first got my fell she was obese. I have had her for 4 years now, and she is still slightly overweight. But what else can I do. She out for a couple of hours a day with a grass mask, on minimal soaked hay when she's in at night and on minimal feed (a balancer). She is also medium/hard work.
I sympathise with you, but YOU didn't let her become obese and ended up having the awful problem of sorting it out.

This new scheme has only been around for a couple of years now, and we can't expect these ponies to drop down to the correct weight in a couple of months. It takes years of hard work. We forget that they were originally meant to live in the wild on almost nothing. 
That's exactly the point, but the show ponies are crammed full of feed and rugged up to the eyeballs as well so no chance of burning it of that way either.

The difference is that these ponies are now overweight, not obese so it is working but i'll will take longer with M&M's than it may with hunters or riding horses.
		
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I have also had the awful job of convincing someone to have two very laminitic ponies pts, and being with them at the end. It was avoidable and unneccessary.

Let's hope some of those guilty as charged read this?


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## Orangehorse (10 October 2010)

I remember reading an article in H & H a few years ago, when it said that people were getting vets out to their show horses as they were convinced they back problems, when in fact the problem was that they were on the verge of laminitis.


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## Doncella (10 October 2010)

If one goes back to the old days before compound feeds, the excessive use of feed balancers and feed companies sponsoring riders, an obese show horse/pony was an anomaly and dealt with very severely by the judges.
I suggest the digging out of such tomes as Horsemans Year from 1940 to 1954 or any Horse and Hound Year Book of a similar vintage to see what show ring animals should look like.


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## brighteyes (10 October 2010)

*fuzz*

I have, though am not the OP, and currently do manage ALL my good doers (one is a native, others native crosses) and the big difference with me and you is we are trying our utmost to beat the genetics which make our ponies put on the fat they need for the winter months during the summer.  Only they no longer NEED the fat stores laid down by their dual metabolism as we feed them therough the winter!  It's THAT basic element of ponies' makeup which everyone seems to have forgotten and those p!11ocks who insist on packing these ponies til they burst IN THE NAME OF RIBBONS need penalising heavily.  Ignorance leading to laminitis is bad enough, to do it deliberately is unforgivable.
My Irish cob pony is on loan to a young girl who lives ON A DAIRY FARM.  She can keeps this pony in a condition score of 3, so there's no excuse for anyone else.  She is a credit to young pony-owners.

Here she is - sorry front half only!


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## killikyle (10 October 2010)

tobysg said:



			I have a Welsh who is looking very fat at the moment.

She is out with a grazing muzzle on all of the time she's out or stays in at night with a double netted haynet, tonight it was 12 kilos but usually more.
If I don't give her enough hay then she eats all of her bed of straw, she has even eaten shavings...

She is ridden around 5 times a week and is relatively fit. Has had two weeks of no/v light jumping as just done an ODE, show and 3 showjumping competitions in consecutive weeks which is alot for a horse who had never jumped competitively before August and she was placed in every class.
I didn't want her to turn sour so gave her some time of just normal schooling and hacking.

I am doing a showjumping competition next week on her possibly. 

I schooled her today and really made her give me her best extended trot on both reins and really made her work properly and quite hard but it was for only 25 minutes as it got dark!  
When I got in she was literally completely wet with sweat from ears to the end of the saddle! 

I didn't really want to clip her yet as I don't want to rug her as she heats up very fast in rugs and I just prefer her without. 

Do I clip and rug a VERY fat horse or rough her out so she loses weight but end up with a very sweaty horse on milder days like this when exercised.

just doesn't seem right putting a rug on such a fattie!

And before anyone queries it's not fat- it is! She has a slight gutter down her back, a huge arse and a massive belly with an extra cresty neck, grrr! 

Oh and she doesn't get feeds- ever. She's got too much energy as it is!

Also she can be a real handful to ride due to excess energy. she got lunged twice and hacked and still was like being sat on a rocket in the school.

Please no rude answers, I tried to portray the fact I do not endorse her weight and I don't need reminding or educating on the implications of it.I know, hence why I have posted this and have done what I have done.

Simply a do I/ don't I clip, friendly answer 

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tobysg said:



			Oh dear, I replied lightheartedly and look what I got!

I just got back from putting my fat welsh out in her muzzle after coming in to straw only and exercise. 

Maybe you should read my other post regarding the welfare of my horse before telling me what to do.

In fact, carry on, it's funny! 

SORRY for ENJOYING and appreciating the quality of the horses in the Mountain and Moorland Pony of the Year.

Banter on a Sunday whilst doing my uni work )
		
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I don't think anyone is knocking you for appreciating the M&M's movement etc
but the issue of obesity is an emotive one.

Part of my business (in addition to the competition horses) is the rehabilitation of animals with welfare issues and unfortunately I have had plenty of experience with horses that have not only health but psychological problems that can be related directly to inappropriate feeding. So many people don't realise that a horse only requires 2% of it's bodyweight as a maintenance diet (I tend to reduce to 1 1/2% with exercise to get the weight off). These are often the same people who over-estimate the level of work their horses are doing.  Ergo, a fat horse.

I commend your efforts to restrict your mare's grazing with a muzzle but, realistically, how did she get that fat in the first place?  (If you only recently acquired her then I apologise - it was someone elses responsibility).

Hopefully, people will start to realise that obesity is a human-induced condition and start managing their horses appropriately.

Incidentally, I have 2 Sec D's with me permanently now who arrived grossly overweight with a variety of physiological and psychological problems between them.  They can now do serious canter work for an hour without sweating up and they only get 9kg feeding.

Please feel free to accuse me (along with brighteyes) of being on my high horse - I do actually carry a portable soapbox with me when it comes to weight issues.


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## fuzz (10 October 2010)

brighteyes said:



*fuzz*

I have, though am not the OP, and currently do manage ALL my good doers (one is a native, others native crosses) and the big difference with me and you is we are trying our utmost to beat the genetics which make our ponies put on the fat they need for the winter months during the summer.  Only they no longer NEED the fat stores laid down by their dual metabolism as we feed them therough the winter!  It's THAT basic element of ponies' makeup which everyone seems to have forgotten and those p!11ocks who insist on packing these ponies til they burst IN THE NAME OF RIBBONS need penalising heavily.  Ignorance leading to laminitis is bad enough, to do it deliberately is unforgivable.
My Irish cob pony is on loan to a young girl who lives ON A DAIRY FARM.  She can keeps this pony in a condition score of 3, so there's no excuse for anyone else.  She is a credit to young pony-owners.

Here she is - sorry front half only!






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I think you've misread my reply. I AM trying to do all I can to get rid of her weight and get her down to the right weight. I am also aware that I will probably need to get her to be too thin and build her back up to the correct weight.

This is her:







I also said that I agree that something should be done about it. I was just saying that people should stop expecting it to happen overnight as its takes a lot of time to get these horses down to the correct weight. These horses used to be obese, they are now overweight. It is working, but people have to be patient. Think about it, if you were a judges position for a hoys qualifier what would you do?


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## horses13 (10 October 2010)

fuzz said:



			OP have you ever owned an M&M and tried to get the weight off one?

I know that ponies being overweight is a major problem in showing and I agree that something needs to be done about it. But as a fell owner, I also know the amount of work and effort it can take to get these ponies to be the correct weight. When I first got my fell she was obese. I have had her for 4 years now, and she is still slightly overweight. But what else can I do. She out for a couple of hours a day with a grass mask, on minimal soaked hay when she's in at night and on minimal feed (a balancer). She is also medium/hard work.

This new scheme has only been around for a couple of years now, and we can't expect these ponies to drop down to the correct weight in a couple of months. It takes years of hard work. We forget that they were originally meant to live in the wild on almost nothing. The difference is that these ponies are now overweight, not obese so it is working but i'll will take longer with M&M's than it may with hunters or riding horses.
		
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Well said. Making a horse lose too much weight too quickly is also detrimental to its health. Well done you doing it the right way


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## Ozzie (10 October 2010)

ihatework said:



			Don't worry, you are not the first person Brighteye's has jumped on without asking any questions first!!! She has a very high horse.
		
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I've noticed this too!


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## tobysg (11 October 2010)

I Pm'ed the person who queried my horse politely.

I regret answering in banter and bringing my chubber into this! 

I'm tired, it's bedtime and the response with the least brainpower involved is- 

Yes, I am a cruel, evil horse owner, along with all the HOYS Welsh D/C owners.
I feed her 4 times a day and turn her out in knee length grass and never exercise her. 

Oh, and those suggesting I was cheering on a child getting injured or whatever you were moaning about.
It was man who is a showing producer and his saddle slipped but he got it back again, its in the H&H report if your that 'intrigued'.
Keep your hair on! Haha!
Actually no, yes I am fully FOR children getting injured...obviously, isn't everyone?
jeez. 

Can't wait to read the abuse tomorrow


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## YorksG (11 October 2010)

So a serious post about a welfare issue, which appears to be being ignored by the 'showcase; showjudges turns into rudeness to a poster who quite rightly feels strongly about the issue, and stupidity from an immature fool, wonderful.
If the HOYS judges had been putting up horses which were severly underweight, would the replies have been of the same ilk? I doubt it somehow.
I do wonder if one of the reasons for this is that so many people are above their 'ideal' weight, and convince themselves this is not important and transfer this attitude to their horses weight.


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## hairycob (11 October 2010)

One of the resaons I left my old yard was because I was fed up of being told my condition score 3 horses were too thin (poor was the word used!). Of 18 horses there was only one other that didn't wobble when it walked.
Went to visit a friend at the weekend as she reckoned her horse wasn't fat anymore - well on the 1-5 scale I reckon he's gone from a 6 to 5.75! But she is convinced he has lost masses of weight & is slim!
So many people now have a distorted view of what a horse should look like that it is near on impossible to convince them that their horses are overweight at all when, in fact, they are obese. It was good to see Spillers taking a weighbridge to some events this summer, but that still leaves a a lot of people looking at their horse's condition through rose tinted specs.


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## irish_only (11 October 2010)

Can I make the point that this post is NOT meant to be personal.
It is a question that is being asked over and over again, and I think two of the main problems are:
Producers / judges with obviously overweight animals
Feed producers with recommended daily feed amounts that do not add up to those recommended by independent nutrionists

ie straight off the bag-
13.2hh 350kg Pony Club Pony in light to medium work 
2kg of Horse and Pony Cubes or Cool Mix 
5kg of Hay or 7-8kg of haylage 

15.2hh 500kg Riding Club Horse in light work  
3kg of Horse and Pony Cubes or Cool Mix 
7kg of Hay or 10kg of haylage 

Both these recomendations add up to the weight/feed advised, but would you really feed that amount of hard feed? And doesn't everyone add sugar beet, high value chop etc etc which pushes the weights up and up.

If anyone entering the world of showing sees over topped animals constantly winning, they will join the club because you can't beat it any other way.


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## brighthair (11 October 2010)

weirdly (and slightly off topic) I was watching Frédéric Pignon at HOYS yesterday, and the first thing that I thought was - how nice to see such obviously happy, healthy, FIT looking horses. Seriously they were gleaming, and their weight looked spot on


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## killikyle (11 October 2010)

yorksG said:



			................................
I do wonder if one of the reasons for this is that so many people are above their 'ideal' weight, and convince themselves this is not important and transfer this attitude to their horses weight.
		
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Not exactly a response to the thread, but Sky 3 had a programme on last night called "Fat Animals, Fat People" - it was dealing with exactly the above issue but I couldn't bring myself to watch!


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## EAST KENT (11 October 2010)

Well we do try,but Morag just wants to look as a Highland should;we don`t feed anything until she starts to show a bit of shape,never hard feed either,just hayledge. It  is very difficult indeed to keep a native bred to survive a Scottish winter outside on heather and rubbish grazing at a slim weight.They are a strong ,tough breed,live on air alone..and actually we love our deep yellow dun cuddly girlie,with her yards of black mane.
 She was shown ,and did really wellin her youth,Highlands are beautiful !


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## irish_only (12 October 2010)

Highlands would definitely be on my shopping list if I had endless time and resources, lovely creatures.

What about the Burghley YE in hand classes - they manage to not look like something being prepared for the fatstock class? Maybe their judges could organise seminars on conditioning?


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## maybedaisy (12 October 2010)

I have a poor doer and a good doer. The poor doer is definetely the easiest to manage. The good doer had PSD and has never come fully sound so I can't work it off her. She is out in a muzzle overnight in the summer, in with soaked hay during the day and overnight in the winter.

She is fed one scoop of Dengie good doer so that I can give her the supplements she needs and she is still overweight.

We don't have lush grass she is just a very, very good doer. I am taking her barefoot and I think once she has got used to it and I have got my hoof boots I will have to start walking her out in hand. It is a constant worry. Before the PSD I could lunge her when i couldnt ride.

Give me a poor doer anyday.


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## brighteyes (12 October 2010)

yorksG said:



			So a serious post about a welfare issue, which appears to be being ignored by the 'showcase; showjudges turns into rudeness to a poster who quite rightly feels strongly about the issue, and stupidity from an immature fool, wonderful.
If the HOYS judges had been putting up horses which were severly underweight, would the replies have been of the same ilk? I doubt it somehow.
I do wonder if one of the reasons for this is that so many people are above their 'ideal' weight, and convince themselves this is not important and transfer this attitude to their horses weight.

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Of course they do - I find it in my own family, even.  Which is sad as ponies don't understand about metabolism and calories, EMS and laminitis.  That is in our hands and they are at the mercy of our conscience, awareness and, I'm afraid in lots of cases morals and scruples.  I don't find any degree of fatness, chubbiness, peachy-bottomed lardiness - call it what you will -  funny in the slightest.  It is frankly appalling that it is allowed to happen at all, never mind condoned/encouraged in competitive spheres.

A saddle slipping round a fat pony - shocking, and any degree of similarity between that pony and one's own should be a source of grave consternation, not amusement.  Sorry.  Well, actually, _NOT_ sorry. And I'll get on as high a horse as you care to provide on this matter.


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## Pearlsasinger (13 October 2010)

Deleted as posted a copy of something else by accident and can't be bothered to re-type it all again, lol!


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## brighteyes (13 October 2010)

*fuzz*

Think you got the wrong end of the stick - I was agreeing with you! Sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## fuzz (13 October 2010)

brighteyes said:



*fuzz*

Think you got the wrong end of the stick - I was agreeing with you! Sorry for the misunderstanding.
		
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Sorry would have been my fault. I'm slightly dyslexic and sometimes I misread it and get the wrong idea. Really sorry again.


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## MrBailey (13 October 2010)

Its not just the overweight issue that needs addressing - its the overheight one too! 15.1 cobs... what a joke most of them look much bigger than that... Why oh why do people feel the need to get them so fat and to keep putting oversize horses into cob classes especially...


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## lauraandjack (13 October 2010)

I'm not sure how we can end what has become accepted as 'normal.'

Once upon a time "topline" was something that was achieved through hours of correct work and schooling.  Now it is often created by standing horses in side reins in the stable so they learn to hold their heads in the 'right' place, and shovelling food into them so that they have massive crests and backsides.

Jack and I dabble in a bit of showing now and again, in a line up of sec D's he looks like a racehorse compared to the obese monsters that can hardly canter round the ring.


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## pip6 (14 October 2010)

Every sport can have potential abuse, but that is no excuse to ignore it. I knew a smashing new forest on loan to a friend. Did sj, xc etc, was a star. Her feed was appropriate & in the summer she wore a grazing muzzle (livery yard had large lush fields). Went back to owners as their daughter had grown tall enough for her, all they did was feed her (with little exercise & turn her out in same livery yard fields with no muzzle. Was very obese when they moved her to another yard, heard through farrier by the end of the summer he could do nothing to save her (when they eventually called him). Pedal bones rotated etc, terrible laminitis, had to be PTS. Pony was 7 years old.

Abuse in all forms should be addressed, & every effort made to prevent it. Unfortunately where you involve money, prestige etc people will use methods to achieve that bit more (than maybe the horse is actually capable of) to win. I was told obesity in show animals was used to hide faults. If it can be on the mark sheet as a fault in its own right, then obese animals will be penalised & ther will be positive reason for people to produce an animal in good condition.

In an ideal world, & if there was space (which there never is), a true test would be a circuit of 2-3 miles which the horse would have to complete within a set time, then it's pulse would have to be under a certain rate (say 64 beats per minute as used in endurance) within 20 minutes of finishing. Only horses proving this level of fitness would then be allowed in the ring. It would certainly sort the fat from the fit!

Can you tell I come from endurance where obesity just doesn't happen? I find it a real shock walking around shows at just how many fat horses there are. Endurance horses are reknown for their long competative careers. The father of my girl came 3rd in a 100 mile race aged 19, another horse Appalousie Firefly is still doing competative rides (albiet shorter these days) aged 28 & looks fantastic. Could the fact they don't carry excess weight be a factor? They do mare miles over any terrain than all other horse sports so it's not like they aren't exposed to wear & tear.


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## brighteyes (14 October 2010)

fuzz said:



			Sorry would have been my fault. I'm slightly dyslexic and sometimes I misread it and get the wrong idea. Really sorry again.
		
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I won't hear of you apologizing - I re-read what I'd put and it confused me!  Glad it's a bit clearer and that any pony you have is at least safe from hippopotamitis...


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## Allover (14 October 2010)

Here is my fat pony story

I came to my current job last year, one of them is\was a very overweight polo pony, and i mean over weight. She is roughly 18. 

Over the last year she has been mostly in continual work, i feed her very little hard feed and she gets small amounts of hay when she is in. 
She has now lost about half the weight that i want her too, her bum no longer looks like 2 hillocks and you can see her stomach muscles when she is working. I am of the opinion that is better that she loses the weight slowly through work and little regular feeds than to starve her. Now my boss wants his horses out as much as possible, we have loads of grass and there is no way that he would allow a grazing muzzle. All he ever says about her is that she is fat, it really p****s me off, i know she is and i am working on it FGS! 

I also have an older TB who is on box rest after an op, he commented the other day that he is too fat also, he gets fat lad feed and chaff and small amounts of hay through the day, i cant feed him any less as he would be kicking the walls down which would do his poorly pin no good.

I think that was just a bit of a rant, dont even think it makes sense!!


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## OneInAMillion (16 October 2010)

I dipped my toe in the waters of showing and was very disheartened and I wouldn't bother again. I have a Connie who I mainly event but he does a bit of everything, he is scared of hunting but if not he would be able to spend the whole day out as he so fit he's almost too fit. We did a working hunter with him, we got the only clear round and we were placed 5th. The judge said he wasn't enough of a "show pony" when I asked afterwards what he meant by "show pony." Basically he said he had too much muscle in his legs and not enough condition, well I don't call him Fatty for nothing :S

These show ponies need more muscle, the strain on their legs is disgraceful and I will never do any showing again if this is how they expect the animals to look. They are obese. 

A study of a show where they weighed 250 horses, 91% were obese.

And the RSPCA says this on obesity

'Obesity puts a strain on the animal's heart and lungs and can cause laminitis, a condition where foot bones rotate and push through the sole.'

Why is something not done?


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## lillith (18 October 2010)

I actualy did my dissertation on this subject.

I found out some interesting things - one that stood out to me was that if you ask someone their horses height they tend to know instantly what they think it is, if you ask the weight they have to check. Weight is needed for worming, feeding, vaccinations, yet people rarely have any idea what the weight might be.

Also a lot of people will read a feed packet and think 'medium work, my pony does two lessons and a hack every week - thats medium work' it isn't, it is light or maintenance. Hard work in the nutritional sense pretty much only applies to competing eventers, racehorses or endurance horses during the relavant seasons. Most show ponies however regularly schooled, are maintenance or light work.

I was shocked at myself when I went to ireland and worked a show jumper yard out there for a couple of months. I have always been very anti-fat ponies, I think it is cruel. When I first got to the yard I caught myself thinking that the horses looked a bit thin. Then I looked again and thought no they really aren't. You could see the muscles and they were shiny, lean and fit. It is kinda worrying really.


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## irish_only (18 October 2010)

Lillith you have so hit the nail on the head. Most equines in this country live very cushy lives, not much in the way of work and food aplenty.

The question still remains though - when are judges going to start penalising overweight animals?

Do we need to lobby all the individual breed societies and showing panels, or do we lobby WHWelfare and ask them to attend shows?

Or do we think sod it?


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## pip6 (19 October 2010)

At some endurance rides this year (such as Golden Horseshoe), there was a weighbridge (for horses). They were weighed (if owners wanted to) before & after ride to see how much they had lost. They were also fat scored. Now I'm not talking hard fit top endurance horses here, but those doing the pleasure ride (20 miles over Exmoor), which are often family horses who want a ride. It would be interesting to compare the fat scores of theses 'average family horses' who are fit enough to do a steady 20 miles compared to 'working hunters' who in theory are meant to be suitable to spend a whole day hunting. GHS weighing done by Dodson & Horrell, anyone know who fat scored the show ponies? See if we can get a comparison.


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## irish_only (19 October 2010)

Have found a picture of Wembley pony of the year 1969







No fat there then.................


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## irish_only (19 October 2010)

And here is my 17.1 full irish draught competing in a 26mile endurance ride. He completed in 3hs 15mins and to slow the time down we walked for the last 25mins. No lost marks for heart rate, and the next day he was bucking and farting around the field. He won his section.







Fat or fit?


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## pip6 (20 October 2010)

Any horse that can complete 25 miles in the time parameters (these vary according to horse/rider grade, novice time slower than advanced time) & not have any heart rate penalties after has excellent underlying heart rate. Some horses have naturally lower heart rates, but these tend to be smaller lightweight athletic animals (such as many arabs though not exclusively before someone has a go), unlike your tall strong chap. This would therefore indicate he has a good level of fitness, & that speed/distance were easily within his capabilities. If he has a natrual talent for endurance, try increasing the distance & moving eventually to races. You'd be surprised where you find talent. Margaret Montgomerie (sadly now passed on) had brilliant success in 100 mile races on her hunter/cob type, Tarquin.


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## Lindy222 (20 October 2010)

My vet, who doesn't say much, but what he does say is to the point, said "choose between the health of your pony (Connie) and success in the show ring".  

Nuff said!!


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## ThoroughbredStar (20 October 2010)

I show M&M's and have a super smart new forest. She has slimed down alot this year with her loaners. When I had her she was round but also very muscley. She won a lot at affiliated and un-aff level and was a real favourite with judges.

Now she is very slim and in the show ring this year has been placed last!!!! One judge said she needs to be a lot bigger and another said a M&M shouldn't look slim.


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## irish_only (20 October 2010)

ThoroughbredStar said:



			I show M&M's and have a super smart new forest. She has slimed down alot this year with her loaners. When I had her she was round but also very muscley. She won a lot at affiliated and un-aff level and was a real favourite with judges.

Now she is very slim and in the show ring this year has been placed last!!!! One judge said she needs to be a lot bigger and another said a M&M shouldn't look slim.
		
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Well we rest the case here. 

Maybe we should send all these comments to the relevant societies?


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## Rosehip (20 October 2010)

Unfortunately I dont think wee will be able to reduce the weight of our equines when so many of them are kept on full livery where the YO/YM seems to like them fat. 
Im having a rough time of it at the moment as the morbidly obese pony on the yard where I work has been proclaimed to be "looking much better" (after I have stripped 5kg off her massive bulk) and has been returned to her previous diet and rugging. 
I feel sick being surrounded by over weight, over rugged and under worked horses, especially when I am looked down on for keeping my girls out and minimally rugged/fed to keep their weight down. 
If I could afford to leave I would, but I cant, and it wouldnt help the horses if I did.


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## dominobrown (20 October 2010)

Some of you asked why horse's tend be so 'overweight' in show ring?
1) If your horse is too long in the back, if it is carrying ALOT of weight will make it appear more compact and therefore look like it has better conformation. My freinds horse did really well showing despite its awful conformation and it was Obese to say the least! My freind now has it and events it so its a fit as a fiddle now.
2) You have 15.2hh, not quite a hunter?? Fatten it up and its a show cob. Freind of a freind of a freind has done this. My friend saw it a few years ago as WH pony, fit but not quite as flashy as some others so its now a cob.

In no way am I encourging this, I am just saying why. It REALLY annoys me! My horse was a Show hunter who I now event. He has excellent manners, movement etc and hunts regualry. I have had comments all year about how well he is looking, with plenty of topline (from schooling), yet is eventing. He carries no extra weight yet judges say he needs more weight on him. He is a hunter who HUNTS!!!! arrghhh!
http://johngracing.thirdlight.com/viewpicturepreview.tlx?z=1&albumid=280385&pictureid=13414050


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## irish_only (20 October 2010)

dominobrown said:



			Some of you asked why horse's tend be so 'overweight' in show ring?
1) If your horse is too long in the back, if it is carrying ALOT of weight will make it appear more compact and therefore look like it has better conformation. My freinds horse did really well showing despite its awful conformation and it was Obese to say the least! My freind now has it and events it so its a fit as a fiddle now.
2) You have 15.2hh, not quite a hunter?? Fatten it up and its a show cob. Freind of a freind of a freind has done this. My friend saw it a few years ago as WH pony, fit but not quite as flashy as some others so its now a cob.

/QUOTE]

I would ALWAYS prefer to buy something that is slightly underweight than overweight as any confo faults are there to be seen. I know why some people do it, but the question is, why do the judges then place an animal that is obese, and hiding confo faults?
		
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## pip6 (21 October 2010)

I do not do showing, I have no need to hear another persons opinion on my horse, so see this from a very 'innocent' perspective I suppose. Surely judges of the standard of class being talked about here can see past the blubber? If a horse is meant to be a working hunter, doesn't it need a ticket to prove it goes hunting? If not, then instigate this. It is meant to be a WORKING hunter. When I do watch these classes, they seem to go at showjumping pace (ie they set the horse up & pop the fence like a showjumper), & the fences are often a mix of brown poles. Portable fences for xc, such as brushes, styles, gates, are readily available these days, so why not use these? They are much more true to life in terms of obstacles encountered. They should be solid fences, not many knockdown poles on a hunt. Local shows probably can't afford them, but county level plus should certainly keep a set. Also there should be a time limit for the round, set at hunting pace. If you are too slow time penalties should be awarded. A working hunter should be able to jump first & foremost, it is only amongst those who've proven their 'hunting ability' over fences that in then should be a beauty contest. If they can't jump, they shouldn't be considered.

Showing should bring in a fat score test, like the height certificate. A representative should be present at each major show & the horse should be fat scored when it is stripped. Optimum weight is the aim, & any overweight (ie those with higher than 'normal' scores) should be awarded penalities sufficiently big to affect the final judging. In that way people will not want to present a fat horse as they will receive a penalty as big as the fault they were trying to hide. In the event of a tie for a place, the fat horse should always be placed below the fit horse.


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## Maesfen (21 October 2010)

That's what you'd call a perfect world Pip; sadly it's not so it just won't happen.
I agree about WH certificates too, point to pointers have to have them, why not WH too and don't tell me they're too valuable, that's tosh.


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## dominobrown (21 October 2010)

I agree about the hunting certificates. 
All hunters should have hunted- talk to some of the older judges will tell you this.
Broodmares should but obviously youngstock can't but all show hunters *should* of hunted. There is a judge near me who asks this, and if the horse hasn't hunted, they will quite often get dropped.


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## WishfulThinker (25 October 2010)

I dont get the desire to see them soooo well covered.  I mean, it is not like we are going to eat them or use the fat for anything! So why have them fat?  Serves no purpose!  

I have a cob, and I like him to be sleek and fit.  I had him once with what I would say was a good covering when he was not worked too much and I was told that was still too thin!


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## MissTyc (26 October 2010)

My gorgeous cob mare is a hefty girl - fit and fast. She can hunt all day and then hack home with a spring in her step. She's an all rounder, dressage, SJ and hunter trials moving onto hunting through the winter. Everyone kept telling me I should try the show ring so off we trundled to a cob class. 

.. to be told she was wonderful, perfect, amazing conformation, well mannered, incredible movement, responsive etc etc etc ... AND MAYBE IF I COULD GET SOME WEIGHT ON HER WE'D DO WELL IN THE SHOW RING. We were not placed even though imo all six horses in the placings looked semi-lame and like their legs would not be able to support their weight. In comparison, my mare is 13 years old, clean limbed, sound, energetic and athletic. First and last time for us!


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## pip6 (26 October 2010)

Keep your mare just as she is, she sounds perfect. Do you really need another persons opinion on your horse? Just keep enjoying her & her athletic ability.


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## Tnavas (2 November 2010)

I remember years ago my trainer telling me that fat hides a multitude of sins! That when you are buying for the show ring looking at a pony/horse in light condition was the best as you can see its true conformation. 

I show my youngsters in hand here in NZ and I won't let them be overweight, not good for their developing limbs - fortunately the fat show horse doesn't get a look in.


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## howengold (3 November 2010)

My NF Howen Golden Showers, was shown in Riding Pony classes for a whole season under lead rein with my daughter back in 2003, she was a fit slim pony and nothing like the cuddly fatties who we competed against.  We never got placed higher than 3rd for most of the season.  At the last show of the season the judge came up to us and praise her fitness and muscle.  He was so pleased to see a non-hippo in the LR class, her conformation was outstanding (his words), she had a sweet temperament and looked in the peak of health.  She came first, he did tell the other entries their ponies needed to loose some pounds if they wanted to beat something so stunning in future.  Complaints were made alround and the show never asked this man back   I was saddened to see his stand against obesity shot down in flames because he was the only judge I ever met that didn't place fat ponies at the top unless the skinies weren't upto standard. 

Needless to say I gave up showing and although we do veteran showing I won't take my NF in anything but SJ now.


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## pip6 (5 November 2010)

Says it all really doesn't it. NF are real athletes (I grew up on the Forest) & to see a fit well muscled one should have been a joy to any judge, especially in a lead rein class demonstrating manners as well.

What it ultimately comes down to is judges. Until they do not place these porkers, there will be no change & the ponies will continue to be the ones suffering for the sake of someones desire for a ribbon.


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