# Showmaker  - Opinions on this Stallion please.......



## mandk (26 November 2008)

<font color="blue"> Please tell me your thoughts on this stallion.  Have seen a foal by him - very nice, seems exactly what I want, but a bit expensive.....
..... So, good or bad please please let me know.

Thanks  </font>


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## Halfstep (26 November 2008)

He's very good looking and has a lovely temperament.  However, I'm not blown away by his movement, I think he's weak behind and very flash up front.  I haven't seen any of his progeny, but he has a super pedigree.  He's quite "fashionable" at the moment which is probably why the foal is expensive.....


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## volatis (26 November 2008)

I used Showmaker for the following reasons. I saw him at  in a young horse class as a 4yo and I loved him, and the judges agreed as he got seriously high marks. I then made a point of meeting him in person at the stud, and felt he complimented my mare really well, as I wanted a stallion that was a modern stamp and i also wont compromise on temperament. Well Showmaker is a total pussy cat in his box, but turned on the spark when he came out.

I saw him again at the stallion parade at Moulton in February, and a lot of breeders there were wowed by him and I think he stole the show. Add in that his pedigree appeals to me a lot, I adore Fidermark, and Showstar I think is one of SH's better sons. 

I'm not sure I'd say Showmaker was fashionable, but he does get his name in the H&amp;H reports a lot as he is winning a lot! He keeps getting very high scores at every level, not just young horse classes, from a range of judges. I have only seen one other Showmaker foal up for sale, a very nice filly. And I dont actually know of anyone else who has used him.


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## mandk (26 November 2008)

I know he has not sired many in the UK yet - but his 1st foal in Germany was born in 2006, I think


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## sms (26 November 2008)

I have a Furst Heinrich mare whose in foal to him.  This is her second foal by him. I saw the first foal before I bought her and it was stunning. I too have met him and his temperament is great. Speak highly of his owners too!


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## mandk (26 November 2008)

Does anyone know generally what price do his foals sell for?  Or what you would be prepared to pay for one of his foals?

Thanks.


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## sms (26 November 2008)

seen anything from £3.5 to I think about £7.5, at brightwells foal auction i think. Depends on the mare.


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## lynwood (26 November 2008)

I haven't met him but I have met his sire and he has the most lovely temperament so if it helps backs up other comments


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## Zeus (26 November 2008)

I have seen him on a couple of occasions and really rate him. He has a fabulous temperament and according to Garry, fantastic trainability which is so important. I like his stamp, although he is very tall he has such elegance about him and is so light on his feet.
I would expect to pay between 5-7k for one of his foals.


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## Peasfriend (26 November 2008)

I first saw Showmaker at the Moulton stallion parade and for me, he was certainly one of the few that caught my eye - he moved incredibly well, and very easily for a taller horse.  Definitely stood out as a high point for me, so much so that I came away wanting to find out more about him, despite the fact I've no mares to breed him to 
	
	
		
		
	


	





I'd not heard much about him before that, but he has consistently featured in the dressage reports in H&amp;H this year, and has done very well by all accounts.

I don't know what his foals are selling for - I've not seen many out there but he is only a young stallion.  He has an attractive pedigree (for me) with Fidermark in there - I guess it depended on what you wanted the foal for.  As a competition horse, around the 6.5K mark maybe - as a potential broodmare or stallion, bloodlines are there so about the same price, maybe more (depending on whether colt or filly)?


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## Halfstep (26 November 2008)

My problem with Showmaker is that if you look closely at his movement he IS weak behind.  He's very flamboyant in front but he does not really take the weight back and sit, and I would worry about putting him to a mare who is not extremely strong behind with a super hock action.  

But his temperament is obviously brilliant and ok, he might not make a GP horse himself but maybe he will sire some!  

Yes, he's been very prolific in winning young horse classes but will be go on to PSG+.......not that it matters in a breeding stallion but he's being marketed on his competition results at the moment.


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## Partoow (26 November 2008)

he has a really weak hind leg with worringly soft fetlocks and long hind pasters. This is actually why his movement looks so 'springy' its not because he uses the hindleg to power under the body and sit,like i would like to see. It is also really slow and the trot has become uneven and passagey.
Sorry but i do not rate this horse at all as a stallion , i think its a nice enough horse but i will be interested to see just how long that hind leg and more particularly the hind suspensory ligament holds out when he is asked to really sit and do work like pirouettes.temperament is important but that means nothing if the weakness of the hindleg is passed on and the offspring are not up to the work.
The Sandro Hit bloodline is notoriuosly weak behind , i have been told by my german friends and is one reason they are not so popular and one reason why this horse was available at all to someone from this country.
Gary is a lovely chap and i wish him well and no i am not in the least bit jealous.... all things that have been levelled at me for daring to say this but it is becoming more apparent as time goes on that this is an issue with this horse.
For this reason i would not use him.


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## Whizz105 (26 November 2008)

I know two people that have put their mares in foal to him. I guess I will see how they turn out next year!!


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## volatis (26 November 2008)

[ QUOTE ]

The Sandro Hit bloodline is notoriuosly weak behind , i have been told by my german friends and is one reason they are not so popular and one reason why this horse was available at all to someone from this country.
. 

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes it sound like horses imported to this country from Germany are the second rate ones the Germans didnt want. If you have enough money the Germans will sell. I know I sat at the Trakehner licensing last year and watched the Pidgleys be prepared to open their wallets wide enough to afford the Champion stallion. 

The Sandro Hit horses still seem to be popular enough in Germany. I'm not a fan of SH himself despite people who rave about him, and yet he and his sons consistently year in and year out produce sons that license, so the grading panels in Germany clearly still like him. 

You do make Showmaker sound like some dud old donkey. The Westphalen, BWBS, Bundeschampionate and UK BD Judges are all obviously wrong then.


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## Zeus (26 November 2008)

mandk if you really like the foal and he is what you want then buy him. The problem with internet forums is that everyone has their different points of view.
 I bought a foal by a stallion that has been trashed by so called experts and I am more than happy with him.


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## Peasfriend (26 November 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
My problem with Showmaker is that if you look closely at his movement he IS weak behind.  He's very flamboyant in front but he does not really take the weight back and sit, and I would worry about putting him to a mare who is not extremely strong behind with a super hock action.  

But his temperament is obviously brilliant and ok, he might not make a GP horse himself but maybe he will sire some!  


[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate what you're saying, and I think that proves the importance of the dam of the foal in question do you not think?  If she is a mare with a good active hind leg, and a strong back end, should the potential of the foal be disregarded?

I'm sure there are other stallions out there who are not perfect in their movement, or with other weaknesses that, with careful breeding, are not necessarily passed onto the foal...


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## Zeus (26 November 2008)

Which is why the Germans cross the SH's with the likes of the Donnerhalls, to improve the hindleg.


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## LindaW (26 November 2008)

I like Showmaker, he's a quality horse thats making people stand up and take notice - I'm quite suprised by the slating he's had here!  'If' there is a potential issue (and thats the very most anyone can say, and even then it's only an opinion) then a careful breeder will have used the right mare with him, exactly as you do with any stallion, because the perfect one isn't out there yet.

So what is this foals dam like?  Decent quality mare?  And the foal himself?


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## mandk (26 November 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
mandk if you really like the foal and he is what you want then buy him. The problem with internet forums is that everyone has their different points of view.
 I bought a foal by a stallion that has been trashed by so called experts and I am more than happy with him. 

[/ QUOTE ] <font color="blue">  Thank you - I did not expect such a heated debate.  Although it is interesting, peoples opinions etc.   You can not please everyone - I suppose this goes for horses too - not everyone is going to like the same!</font>


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## stolensilver (26 November 2008)

IMHO a good horse is a good horse. If you see one that you like buy them! After all how many people had ever heard of Donnerwetter before Donnerhall appeared? Or Salieri before Salinero? Or Silvermoon before Matine?

Showmaker has got an amazing competition record for such a young stallion. His offspring are doing very well in the BEF futurity. He couldn't have done any more than he has at his age. No one can ever know for sure if a horse will get to GP until it gets there (quote from Richard Davison) which I think is very true. 

So what do you think of this horse? Do you like them? Do they make your heart leap? If they do, follow your gut instinct. If they don't then you have your answer also. Whenever I've been horse hunting I've always followed gut instinct. Most of the time it has been right.


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## Partoow (27 November 2008)

volatis, the Germans and the dutch know what and why they keep what they keep.the really good stuff we dont get to see and it is rarely available to us lesser mortals or those that dont have a half a million euros hanging around.
I respect greatly your opinion and know you have a great deal of experience in breeding.
I do not think Showmaker is a dud donkey but i seriously dont like his hind leg and any mare that goes to him should have this as their strength and come from a bloodline that is along those lines of strong correct hindlegs.
No there is no such thing as a perfect horse but there is looking , seeing and not being blown away with the hype and basing breeding decisions on truely pracmatic principles .
For the record i dont think the dressage judges are totally wrong he does make a pleasing picture BUT his hind leg IS slow and for a top horse and one with the potential to breed good horses this is a worry.


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## piaffe (27 November 2008)

I have seen a video of him online. He seems to have a fantastic action up front, really expressive but, for me, he fades away towards his backend which looks weak and inactive in comparison.
 HOWEVER, my knowledge is very limted and may be totally off the mark.


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## Peasfriend (27 November 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
I have seen a video of him online. He seems to have a fantastic action up front, really expressive but, for me, he fades away towards his backend which looks weak and inactive in comparison.
 HOWEVER, my knowledge is very limted and may be totally off the mark. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Again, fair comment but... the whole point of trying to breed a good foal, is that you balance a stallion's weaknesses against your mare's strengths (I know that's a very simplistic way of looking at it but it serves the purpose here) to try and get a better foal.

To be honest mandk, if you've met the foal, seen the foal move, and you like it, buy it!


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## Touchwood (27 November 2008)

I think this thread has just gone to show that you must go and see stallions and youngstock yourself and make your judgement based on what you see.
As a stud owner with a stallion standing with us, it worries me how a stallion's reputation can be trashed by a couple of posts on an internet board.

For my two pennies worth....I have seen Showmaker a number of times, and think he is a super horse, great temperament, great balance and a real prescence about him.  I also like Gary and think he really has the horses future career in mind, but I think the horse has in his early life been 'produced' rather a lot for gradings/stallion shows and has asked to be very flash.  His stud career was clearly very important from the word go and they wanted him to get the mares, some stallions would be produced specifically for the dressage arena - get their results, climb the grades and then be offered at public stud....so no one gets to slate the fact the hindleg was a little slow as a youngster, as training and strength developed.
I think the enormous amount that Showmaker has achieved - already, plus the success of his offspring kind of speaks for itself.  Like Sacha, I also don't like Sandro Hit, but again, his offpring are speaking for themselves - and I guess that is a perfect example of how the right mare improves on the stallion and produces something even better.


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## Halfstep (27 November 2008)

Very good post Touchwood.  
	
	
		
		
	


	




.

Ps.  I don't think having a criticism about a stallion equates to "slating" it.  I like Showmaker, I like Garry, I just had a few observations about the horse.  That is not slating.  Its being sensibly critical.


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## Touchwood (27 November 2008)

Sorry Halfstep, I don't remember exactly who has said what, but I think people need to be very careful about what they say and how they say it.  Stallions are some people's livelhoods, and internet boards provide an all too easy way for chinese whispers and sometimes incorrect information to spread.

This stallion is available to see - so for those interested, go see him, look at him stood up, assess the conformation, see how he suits the mare and see him working in a less stressful environment, where more relaxation may promote a more natural way of going.  There is no one stallion that suits every mare - so it is so important that people look at the mare and pick a stallion that suits her.

ETA - We already have another thread going on where judgements on conformation are being made from a (somewhat dodgy, angle wise!) photo - so you can see how these things escalate.  We now have Showmaker with a slow hindleg and Deanes San Ciro Hit who is upright - all from internet posts!


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## Halfstep (27 November 2008)

I see what you are saying but on this point I disagree. To me that is like saying we shouldn't criticise books (for example) because they are the author's livelihood, or that you shouldn't comment on the quality of a product or service because someone makes their living selling that service.    

I think that if a stallion is being marketed and presented to the public then (within reason) he should be open for (polite) cricitism or observations about his qualities.


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## piaffe (27 November 2008)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have seen a video of him online. He seems to have a fantastic action up front, really expressive but, for me, he fades away towards his backend which looks weak and inactive in comparison.
 HOWEVER, my knowledge is very limted and may be totally off the mark. 
	
	
		
		
	


	





[/ QUOTE ]

Again, fair comment but... the whole point of trying to breed a good foal, is that you balance a stallion's weaknesses against your mare's strengths (I know that's a very simplistic way of looking at it but it serves the purpose here) to try and get a better foal.

To be honest mandk, if you've met the foal, seen the foal move, and you like it, buy it! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes true, but I was commenting on what I thought of the stallion thats all. Also, I guess backends are a big thing with me as my mares own is weak.


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## Touchwood (27 November 2008)

Yes - polite critisisms or observations - we are after all a free country last time I checked 
	
	
		
		
	


	




  I'm not saying people shouldn't have an opinion, just that we have to be very aware of what we say and how we say it on something like an internet forum.
Its all part of the education of british breeders and mare owners that they must go and see these horses, learn what works for their mares and why.  I know a scary amount of people that have selected a stallion based on a couple of internet opinions.


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## LindaW (27 November 2008)

In that case they are fools, to buy or not buy (semen or offspring) based on interent opinions of people we don't know, who may (or may not - I don't know most of the posters here) have a beef with sellers/stallions etc, or may or may not know what they are talking about really would be silly.

If I liked the foal, and was satisfied that the breeder had done their homework, I'd buy it.


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## maestro (27 November 2008)

What Showmaker seems to bring to the table is proof of ridability and trainability two invaluable qualities and Im sure most of us would be pleased to have him in one of our stables!
The foal is worth looking at purely on that point of view and the dam will her own characteristics to the table.  This forums are surely for reference only then make your own mind.


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## millitiger (30 November 2008)

i personally wouldn't use Showmaker on my mares for some of the reasons stated above. 
i have seen him twice and thought his trot and canter were both very static without much forward movement- hence his trot looked more like passage and his canter almost 4-beat (also imo, why his changes were so bad). whether this is through training or genetics, i'm not sure, but his movement was not my cup of tea.

HOWEVER...if i saw a foal of his that i liked, that suited my criteria and that was within my budget i would definitely buy it.


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