# New Horse..no brakes



## On the Hoof (11 June 2013)

Hi hoping for some advice here.  Short version is had a 14yr old for one month, first horse, novice rider (riding for two years). Lovely manners on the ground, settling in well.  She came with bridle with Pelham and Flash. Have put her in a snaffle but kept the flash.  She is settling in the school but is stiff from not being schooled for about three years..so first issue is that I probably don't have the skill level yet to get her up to scratch schooling wide.  YO says put on working livery- I don't really want to do this. She is quite forward , sensitive in mouth and doesn't need asking twice..worried she may get spoiled.  Can an older horse who has been Professionally schooled a long time ago benefit from working livery as people are suggesting to me?
Second issue is brakes, haven't had her long enough to really know her, but when she sets her mind to go, there doesn't seem much stopping her. I would like to get to a point where the flash can be done away with (hate hate hate them), but don't know where to start.  Do I need her re schooled to,deal with both issues?    Sorry for being another numpty novice owner...any help or ideas greatly appreciated.
Ps the former owner had completely lost her confidence which I think was reason for the Pelham, I don't think the horse needs it... But then again I am asking about brakes so you probably think I'm a complete dimwit.   
Thanks for any advice ou can offer.


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## RainbowDash (11 June 2013)

I think that before you consider working livery you must sort out the brakes.  

A month isn't long to get to know your horse fully - which snaffle are you using at the moment? - my lad used to take the mickey, hold onto the bit and tank off in a egg-butt and I changed him into a french-link and now have brakes {phew} and can ride him on loose reins .


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## trottingon (12 June 2013)

Can you have some lessons from an independent freelance instructor?  (I am only saying that as your YO may or may not be biased if they have already suggested working livery.)
I don't see the point in working livery personally, having your horse ridden by people with a mixture of experience (and with the general assumption they are not experienced riders/horse owners?), even under instruction just doesn't do it for me personally.

Surely if it is your horse you want a chance to work through any issues yourself, if you get to the stage where only a more experienced rider would help, well then you'd look for someone experienced, ideally a freelance experienced rider or instructor

I would ask around for a recommended instructor, or even a couple and have lessons with them, see which you think you will gel with the best, and then have some regular lessons with the one you like best, even better would be a couple of lessons a week at first if you can afford it short term?  A decent instructor will soon make a full assessment of your riding and the horse's way of going and come up with a plan to move forward, which may involve a change of bit or noseband, or if they think schooling by a more experienced rider would be the best way forward then you can look into this.

Hope this helps
x


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## sue12345 (12 June 2013)

I'm not an expert but i do consider my self a novice so,

Novice
First horse
Pelham and flash
no skill level
forward going
no stopping her.
former owner lost confidence.

Is this really the horse for you, wouldn't be my choice. Please get some expert instruction and schooling for her.


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## On the Hoof (12 June 2013)

sue12345 said:



			I'm not an expert but i do consider my self a novice so,

Novice
First horse
Pelham and flash
no skill level
forward going
no stopping her.
former owner lost confidence.

Is this really the horse for you, wouldn't be my choice. Please get some expert instruction and schooling for her.
		
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Fair Point, was expecting that reaction when I posted. I didnt have any problems riding her before i bought, two experienced people went with me and thought she was right for me, her owner explained the pelham by way of where she galloped her, there were two horses that raced alongside (wont go into details of on this), so all seemed reasonable. Also she is starting to listen to me in the school  and she is a sweetie.  I have lessons, but am going to try a different instructor re working with her.   Will let you know how I get on.  Thanks for your input.


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## Amymay (12 June 2013)

Second issue is brakes, haven't had her long enough to really know her, but when she sets her mind to go, there doesn't seem much stopping her
		
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Hence the pelham......

No I wouldn't put her on working livery.  I'd just get the help of a really good instructor.


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## telerimist (12 June 2013)

Big bits aren't needed to stop horses, good schooling will. Once you've had her a while you'll develop a partnership which will help this. I have a big mare (17hh up and 7ft rugs!) and I found that less is me when it comes to tack, she's ridden in a eggbutt snaffle and plain cavesson, and yes she can be strong in some cases but I've had her 6 years now and using my seat has a bigger impact than my hand and if anything she seems more respectful of it.

As said above a good instructor will be invaluable to you once you've found one you get on well with.  
Some horses can also tank off or get strong/silly during schooling if their bored especially if they have a cheeky character. So keeping their work varied and giving them lots to think about can help, even if its just putting out single poles or jump blocks to use to bend between can help keep some horses interested in their work.

Defo no to working livery, you have a horse for yourself so work through it yourself and not only will it be more rewarding for you but will help you develop a partnership.

Good luck


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## RunToEarth (12 June 2013)

Agree with AM, find youself a good instructor and work with them to help you understand the horse. I would also ask an instructor on bitting advice. Personally I'm not a fan of pelhams and flashes together, and I also think there are a good few happy mediums between a snaffle and a pelham that you can try. 

But first of all I would find an instructor - do you have lots of horsey people locally who can recommend a good one?


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## oldie48 (12 June 2013)

I am a bit intrigued as to why your YO is suggesting working livery, do you keep your horse at a riding school? Are you able to ride your horse regularly? Did the YO come with you to view the horse? I'm not a huge fan of working livery but for some people it does serve a purpose and not all riding school horses are ridden by complete novices. I'd rather have a horse ridden by someone in an individual lesson with a competent instructor than left in a stable with not enough work to keep it sane and sensible but I think you do need to be very clear about what the working livery involves. Actually, from what you've said, this horse doesn't really sound like a typical riding school horse but perhaps I've missed something. With regard to bitting, a good instructor will help you with this but in the early days i think you need to feel safe and able to stop, if that means using a stronger bit initially while you get to grips with the horse and improve your riding, well so be it. You can't focus on improving your riding if you think you are going to be run off with, you can always use a milder bit as your confidence grows. I'm sure I've read somewhere that it's better to use a stronger bit gently than a mild bit strongly (or words to that effect). Good luck with your first horse, it's really quite daunting and very different from riding school horses, try not to worry too much but do get experienced help from someone who wants you to succeed rather than put you down.


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## On the Hoof (12 June 2013)

RunToEarth said:



			Agree with AM, find youself a good instructor and work with them to help you understand the horse. I would also ask an instructor on bitting advice. Personally I'm not a fan of pelhams and flashes together, and I also think there are a good few happy mediums between a snaffle and a pelham that you can try. 

But first of all I would find an instructor - do you have lots of horsey people locally who can recommend a good one?
		
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I think that I can get recommendations from local people, definitely need some biting advice. Any suggestions as to happy mediums for me to research and discuss with instructor?  Thanks for responding.



telerimist said:



			Big bits aren't needed to stop horses, good schooling will. Once you've had her a while you'll develop a partnership which will help this.
		
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Hope so, I'm going to work hard at this and it's very early days..we have a long journey in front of us!



telerimist said:



			Some horses can also tank off or get strong/silly during schooling if their bored especially if they have a cheeky character. So keeping their work varied and giving them lots to think about can help, even if its just putting out single poles or jump blocks to use to bend between can help keep some horses interested..
Good luck 

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Thanks hadn't thought of using stuff round the school to work around, will definitely keep things as varied as possible for her.



RainbowDash said:



			I think that before you consider working livery you must sort out the brakes.  

A month isn't long to get to know your horse fully - which snaffle are you using at the moment? - my lad used to take the mickey, hold onto the bit and tank off in a egg-butt and I changed him into a french-link and now have brakes {phew} and can ride him on loose reins .
		
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I'm using a French link already...


trottingon said:



			Can you have some lessons from an independent freelance instructor?  (I am only saying that as your YO may or may not be biased if they have already suggested working livery.)
I don't see the point in working livery personally, having your horse ridden by people with a mixture of experience (and with the general assumption they are not experienced riders/horse owners?), even under instruction just doesn't do it for me personally.

Surely if it is your horse you want a chance to work through any issues yourself, if you get to the stage where only a more experienced rider would help, well then you'd look for someone experienced, ideally a freelance experienced rider or instructor

I would ask around for a recommended instructor, or even a couple and have lessons with them, see which you think you will gel with the best, and then have some regular lessons with the one you like best, even better would be a couple of lessons a week at first if you can afford it short term?  A decent instructor will soon make a full assessment of your riding and the horse's way of going and come up with a plan to move forward, which may involve a change of bit or noseband, or if they think schooling by a more experienced rider would be the best way forward then you can look into this.

Hope this helps
x
		
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Thank you, I really am not happy with idea of working livery, but there is a bit of pressure on me from two or three people actually... Although those already on WL are the worst for keeping on asking about this...maybe they just want everyone to be the same as them to justify their choice, I certainly wouldn't judge them for it, but I don't think it's for me .  YO may be thinking of herself a bit, but I think she is honest and she knew when I went in that I didn't want WL so it was up to her to reject me there and then if she wanted another WL at her yard.  

Thanks everyone for replies, will let you know how I get on.


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## On the Hoof (12 June 2013)

oldie48 said:



			I am a bit intrigued as to why your YO is suggesting working livery, do you keep your horse at a riding school? Are you able to ride your horse regularly? Did the YO come with you to view the horse? I'm not a huge fan of working livery but for some people it does serve a purpose and not all riding school horses are ridden by complete novices. I'd rather have a horse ridden by someone in an individual lesson with a competent instructor than left in a stable with not enough work to keep it sane and sensible but I think you do need to be very clear about what the working livery involves. Actually, from what you've said, this horse doesn't really sound like a typical riding school horse but perhaps I've missed something. With regard to bitting, a good instructor will help you with this but in the early days i think you need to feel safe and able to stop, if that means using a stronger bit initially while you get to grips with the horse and improve your riding, well so be it. You can't focus on improving your riding if you think you are going to be run off with, you can always use a milder bit as your confidence grows. I'm sure I've read somewhere that it's better to use a stronger bit gently than a mild bit strongly (or words to that effect). Good luck with your first horse, it's really quite daunting and very different from riding school horses, try not to worry too much but do get experienced help from someone who wants you to succeed rather than put you down.
		
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Hi, yes the horse is at a small school with a mix of working livery and normal liveries. many of the clients are more experienced riders than me, but of course there are classes for complete beginners as well.   I think that she is not typical RSHorse, but then they do have some sharp horses there! I think what you say about using a stronger bit gently etc makes some sense to me and I feel that exploring some alternatives that are not to harsh while we build our relationship seems the way forward.  So far I'm riding her five days a week, but as she is relatively new in the school and don't want to go hacking just yet, they are quite short sessions, also don't want to bore her to death!  But she is out 24/7 with small group of others. Hopefully will build up riding time as we progress .
Thank you for your thoughts on this


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## oldie48 (13 June 2013)

Right I've got the picture now! i bought my first horse when I was nearly 50 after having a couple of years of lessons with a good riding school on decent horses. she was a 12yr old TB mare, great to hack but very lacking in the schooling department and I hadn't got a clue! I kept her on livery at a yard which was similar to yours but had mainly ponies. My mare was used for the odd lesson with adults or teenagers who rode better than I did. I always tried to watch the lesson and learned a great deal from listening and observing, also the YO was an experienced instructor. The mare also improved. She was schooled in a snaffle. No-one else hacked her out and she was a super safe forward going hack, I was really lucky to find her but I always had her in a running martingale and a bubble bit on the first ring down when I hacked her, I just felt that bit of extra poll pressure made me feel more confident so I didn't hang on her mouth. 15 years on and several horses later, I still use a slightly stronger bit to  hack with a running martingale. I also use a neck strap when I school so if the horse spooks or bucks, I've got something to grab. I know you say you hate flashes but they have a place and purpose, i use a plain cavesson mainly but sometimes put a flash or a drop on my dressage horse for a short while usually at the suggestion of my trainer. It's a real priviledge to own a horse i just wish that I had been able to start at a younger age as there is so much to know. Good luck and let us know how you get on.


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## On the Hoof (13 June 2013)

oldie48 said:



			Right I've got the picture now! i bought my first horse when I was nearly 50 after having a couple of years of lessons with a good riding school on decent horses. she was a 12yr old TB mare, great to hack but very lacking in the schooling department and I hadn't got a clue! I kept her on livery at a yard which was similar to yours but had mainly ponies. My mare was used for the odd lesson with adults or teenagers who rode better than I did. I always tried to watch the lesson and learned a great deal from listening and observing, also the YO was an experienced instructor. The mare also improved. She was schooled in a snaffle. No-one else hacked her out and she was a super safe forward going hack, I was really lucky to find her but I always had her in a running martingale and a bubble bit on the first ring down when I hacked her, I just felt that bit of extra poll pressure made me feel more confident so I didn't hang on her mouth. 15 years on and several horses later, I still use a slightly stronger bit to  hack with a running martingale. I also use a neck strap when I school so if the horse spooks or bucks, I've got something to grab. I know you say you hate flashes but they have a place and purpose, i use a plain cavesson mainly but sometimes put a flash or a drop on my dressage horse for a short while usually at the suggestion of my trainer. It's a real priviledge to own a horse i just wish that I had been able to start at a younger age as there is so much to know. Good luck and let us know how you get on.
		
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So many similarities with my situation!  It sounds like the bubble bit is the next thing for me to try .   Any YES, what a privelege to own a horse!  thanks for your response.


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## oldie48 (13 June 2013)

Been thinking this afternoon, you say you ride the horse in the arena at the moment. With my first horse I did the same but frankly had no idea what I was trying to achieve, I suppose a bit of getting to know the horse and a bit of trying to build my confidence. With hindsight i wish I'd been a bit more focused eg had a plan of what I wanted to achieve. It wouldn't have needed to be very ambitious perhaps just focus on rhythm, which is what I always do now when I start schooling. i count the walk beat and try to ensure when I change direction, do a circle etc the beat stays exactly the same. I do the same in trot. As you have a bit of a problem with brakes, you could try walk trot walk transitions using your seat rather than your hand, change of direction by using your seatbones rather than the rein. lots of quite simple things that will help you find out what the horse knows and which will help you improve your "feel" Sorry if I seem a bit interfering but looking back I wish I'd had a bit more guidance luckily I did find a really good instructor who is now a good friend who put me right!


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## Twinkley Lights (13 June 2013)

On the hoof said:



			So many similarities with my situation!  It sounds like the bubble bit is the next thing for me to try .   Any YES, what a privelege to own a horse!  thanks for your response.
		
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I'd suggest a Dutch Gag which may be another name for the bubble bit use it on the ring under the cheek piece ring for brakes and on the same as a snaffle.


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## On the Hoof (13 June 2013)

oldie48 said:



			Been thinking this afternoon, you say you ride the horse in the arena at the moment. With my first horse I did the same but frankly had no idea what I was trying to achieve, I suppose a bit of getting to know the horse and a bit of trying to build my confidence. With hindsight i wish I'd been a bit more focused eg had a plan of what I wanted to achieve. It wouldn't have needed to be very ambitious perhaps just focus on rhythm, which is what I always do now when I start schooling. i count the walk beat and try to ensure when I change direction, do a circle etc the beat stays exactly the same. I do the same in trot. As you have a bit of a problem with brakes, you could try walk trot walk transitions using your seat rather than your hand, change of direction by using your seatbones rather than the rein. lots of quite simple things that will help you find out what the horse knows and which will help you improve your "feel" Sorry if I seem a bit interfering but looking back I wish I'd had a bit more guidance luckily I did find a really good instructor who is now a good friend who put me right!
		
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No please, NOT interfering at all! am grateful for all suggestions and guidance. have concentrated on walk/halt and trot walk transitions but must admit have not focused on keeping rhythm through circles etc in both gaits...I'm going to sit down and do a bit of planning from basics.  Many thanks


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## On the Hoof (13 June 2013)

oldie48 said:



			Been thinking this afternoon, you say you ride the horse in the arena at the moment. With my first horse I did the same but frankly had no idea what I was trying to achieve, I suppose a bit of getting to know the horse and a bit of trying to build my confidence. With hindsight i wish I'd been a bit more focused eg had a plan of what I wanted to achieve. It wouldn't have needed to be very ambitious perhaps just focus on rhythm, which is what I always do now when I start schooling. i count the walk beat and try to ensure when I change direction, do a circle etc the beat stays exactly the same. I do the same in trot. As you have a bit of a problem with brakes, you could try walk trot walk transitions using your seat rather than your hand, change of direction by using your seatbones rather than the rein. lots of quite simple things that will help you find out what the horse knows and which will help you improve your "feel" Sorry if I seem a bit interfering but looking back I wish I'd had a bit more guidance luckily I did find a really good instructor who is now a good friend who put me right!
		
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No please, NOT interfering at all! am grateful for all suggestions and guidance. have concentrated on walk/halt and trot walk transitions but must admit have not focused on keeping rhythm through circles etc in both gaits...I'm going to sit down and do a bit of planning from basics.  Many thanks.


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## On the Hoof (13 June 2013)

Twinkley Lights said:



			I'd suggest a Dutch Gag which may be another name for the bubble bit use it on the ring under the cheek piece ring for brakes and on the same as a snaffle.
		
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Yes I spoke to the YO today and she called it a Gag, so it sounds the same, she has got one for me to try and if this suits the horse I can then go out and buy one.  Thanks


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## Pearlsasinger (13 June 2013)

I haven't read all the replies, so sorry if I'm duplicating some.

No I wouldn't recommend working livery, your horse would be subjected to different riders with different levels of ability, all asking things in slightly different ways.
I would put the Pelham back in, use it with 2 reins (not as difficult as it sounds), ditch the flash and have lessons on the horse with an independent RI.
I would also consider finding a different livery yard, I really don't like the fact that your YO suggested working livery, although she might have had the best of motives (maybe).


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## Boulty (14 June 2013)

Haven't read full post so apologies if any of this has been answered already. In what situations does she take hold and refuse to stop? Are we talking just during exciting activities like cantering across open fields, jumping etc (cos there are a lot of horses that forget their manners when they get excited), when spooked or just randomly when she feels like it? Also to what extent can't you stop? Is it just that you have to be quite firm with her and maybe have a short argument but she will pull up even if it takes a few more strides than you'd like or is there literally no stopping her no matter what you do until she decides she's ready to slow down? If it's just that she can get strong but she is stoppable then I'd think that less of an issue, especially if it's only certain situations it happens in (and if that is the case I'd consider the stronger bit in those situations whilst you're working on this issue). Either way I'd recommend getting an unbiased (ie no vested interest) instructor / trainer out to assess you both and go from there really. Depending on the severity of the problem they may be able to help work you through it with you on her or they may need to school her for you first to get through the worst of the behaviour. I'd personally advise against working livery. I think it's a wonderful thing for timepressed owners with well schooled horses that clients would otherwise not have access to but think it's highly inappropriate as a way of training a horse.


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## Jola (14 June 2013)

Hi
You are in a similar situation to me... Had a plodder, all easy. Now got a strong wilful one in loan and he came in a Pelham. Mostly have breaks in the Pelham but have now started to ride in double reins which seems to have helped. My yo told me to put a flash on him but lots of people says this defeats the point of a Pelham and I have to say, whilst he opens his mouth a lot, he does seem more chilled and reactive without it! I've also taken his martingale off when schooling although I am still using it for hacking at the mo. got my first proper lesson with him booked tomo so hoping that will help too
Good luck!


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## Jola (14 June 2013)

Oh and learning how to use double reins.... T'internet! It was hard to learn and I just got someone more experienced to check I was doing it right (I was so trust me it can't be that hard)


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## On the Hoof (14 June 2013)

Boulty said:



			Haven't read full post so apologies if any of this has been answered already. In what situations does she take hold and refuse to stop? Are we talking just during exciting activities like cantering across open fields, jumping etc (cos there are a lot of horses that forget their manners when they get excited), when spooked or just randomly when she feels like it? Also to what extent can't you stop? Is it just that you have to be quite firm with her and maybe have a short argument but she will pull up even if it takes a few more strides than you'd like or is there literally no stopping her no matter what you do until she decides she's ready to slow down?
		
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Hi, early days but she has tanked inthe school but could bring her back but not as fast as I would have liked, exciting situations ..YES no control at all jumping just flat out canter...even wants to canter full on and jump poles on ground! Only taken her in reasonably 'safe' open space in walk, third time tried trot but got a fast canter and only stopped when she was ready.  She doesn't seem particular spooky....She is still v. new here so to some extent is foing to be on her toes anyway..Gonna have to roll with it a bit (inexcusable pun!)


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## On the Hoof (14 June 2013)

Jola said:



			Hi
 My yo told me to put a flash on him but lots of people says this defeats the point of a Pelham and I have to say, whilst he opens his mouth a lot, he does seem more chilled and reactive without it!
		
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Thanks, I think someone earlier also said this so IF Pelham goes back on will try without flash




			got my first proper lesson with him booked tomo so hoping that will help too
Good luck!
		
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Thanks and good luck as well, hope your lesson goes well.


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