# The truth about the Horse Hoarder



## flump (12 January 2013)

Link contains distressing images

http://horsegossip.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=guests&action=display&thread=151650


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## Nic (12 January 2013)

Horrendous images, and anyone guilty of that kind of cruelty should be hung drawn & quartered, but there's nothing linking those pictures to any person. Absolutely not questioning you, just saying what the pro Clwyd may.

I have no time for the RSPCA, and given what we saw in the documentary I felt they dealt shoddily with the situation. But that kind of neglect is abhorrent.


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## jackbobs (12 January 2013)

oh my lord!! that is awful, i wish i didn't look at that!!! 
now makes sense, usually the RSPCA need constant pestering to do anything so i couldn't understand why they were so hell bent on bringing this guy down. Now i know why!


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## Cinnamontoast (12 January 2013)

Horrific.  

His reaction when the proceeds of the sale of one horse had to be spent on wormers etc and his reaction to the dead foal said it all for me.


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## cheeryplatypus (12 January 2013)

cinnamontoast said:



			Horrific.  

His reaction when the proceeds of the sale of one horse had to be spent on wormers etc and his reaction to the dead foal said it all for me.

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Dreadful
Hope he gets convicted.


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## horseyvon (12 January 2013)

I have just seen it too. I refrained from commenting about what a great man he was as I felt the programme didn't ring true but unfortunately he seems to be quite a cruel man. Those poor poor ponies!


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## pogface (12 January 2013)

Just awful. Makes me so so angry


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## competitiondiva (12 January 2013)

He has already been convicted, he pleaded guilty to six counts of suffering, I believe sentencing is in April.


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## piebaldsparkle (12 January 2013)

Haven't seen the program, but knew things just didn't add up.


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

A woman called Heather Williams posted this on the Facebook page:




			Firstly it is good but well over due that this man is receiving professional help. I am writing on behalf of my cousin whose land it is Clwyd is SQUATTING on! We have been told about this page and I purposely have had my Granddaughter open this account so I can comment. I find it hard to understand how people can comment in so much detail about this situation when they do not know the bigger picture or the other side to a story.... I see no questions or support for the frail 80year old man who has been bullied over the past 4 years while Clwyd has been on his land? My cousin and his family farmed for over 60 years at the farm/land. 8 years ago he moved out as he could no longer keep up with daily work/tasks. With no sons/ family to hand farm down to the farm it was quickly robbed and set alight by local teenagers/ thugs when he was not there. 4 years ago Clwyd and his people moved onto land taking all silage and machinery. My cousin to date has spent thousands on trying to remove this man but as you can image as an 80yearold man he is losing the strength/money and power to carry on. There is no question this man loves his horses but helping and supporting him to keep them is like feeding a drug addict. He has a proven track record of ill-treating horses  from Mostyn estates where horses were found dead and not wormed and to Wrexham where dead fouls and condition horses were found. Clwyd does not live in the wild????? He travel around in his tractor and uses my cousins plant and machinery without his permission. I have read comments on here about people bring food for him etc???? You will find him shopping at local supermarkets. There are two sides to every story and people appear on hear only appear to hear one.
I hope this situation is resolved over coming months and Clwyd receives the help he needs and moves on.
		
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## competitiondiva (12 January 2013)

From the other thread, RSPCA blog and a photo of one of the seized horses http://www.flickr.com/photos/rspca/8365018496/in/photostream
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/kl67j7


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## ChiffChaff (12 January 2013)

I was totally taken in, annoyed with myself now 

Those pictures are horrendous.  I've just been browsing the facebook page and I've seen some comments that do seem ''off''.  Two people asked to be able to see where the money was being spent, questioned the selling of the horses rather than signing them over to a charity, and asked if breeding had stopped, they were met with pretty short shrift although eventually answered. 

There was also a comment 'on behalf of the owner of the land' he is squatting on, saying it is an 80 year old man who has spent thousands trying to evict him, and that Clwyd has helped himself to farm machinery and drives around in a tractor etc.  It had a ring of the truth to it.


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## Shettie (12 January 2013)

This was posted by Michelle on the Wrexham rescue horses page


Regarding the horrible photographs posted on some forums - 

I will not defend anybody's right to allow horses to live and die in these conditions.

Without speaking to Clwyd I cannot confirm whether or not they were Clwyd's horses. However I doubt it because there would have been evidence of a prosecution at this time and there is none. That the RSPCA were called and ignored such cruelty seems most unlikely. 

The photographs and posts have been copied and sent to Clwyd's solicitor. It seems likely that they are evidence of a smear campaign.

However, I met Clwyd in June 2009 and have never seen conditions like that in the time I have known him. In Feb/March 2011 some of his horses were in very poor condition and needed some intervention. One problem was inadequate worming because Clwyd did not understand the different types of worms and how to treat them properly. We addressed this as quickly as possible and the condition of the horses improved. A further problem was the number of colts. We targeted these and brought them to the rescue centre for taming, worming, microchipping, passporting etc. In total 30 beautiful, healthy, useful horses and ponies were rehomed. Currently Clwyd has 22 horses which are in beautiful condition. We still have approximately 12 to catch and rehome, leaving Clwyd hopefully with less than 10 older mares and no stallion. 

My remit has been at all times to help Clwyd to help his horses which he does indeed love.


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

Shettie said:



			This was posted by Michelle on the Wrexham rescue horses page


Regarding the horrible photographs posted on some forums - 

I will not defend anybody's right to allow horses to live and die in these conditions.

Without speaking to Clwyd I cannot confirm whether or not they were Clwyd's horses. However I doubt it because there would have been evidence of a prosecution at this time and there is none. That the RSPCA were called and ignored such cruelty seems most unlikely. 

The photographs and posts have been copied and sent to Clwyd's solicitor. It seems likely that they are evidence of a smear campaign.

However, I met Clwyd in June 2009 and have never seen conditions like that in the time I have known him. In Feb/March 2011 some of his horses were in very poor condition and needed some intervention. One problem was inadequate worming because Clwyd did not understand the different types of worms and how to treat them properly. We addressed this as quickly as possible and the condition of the horses improved. A further problem was the number of colts. We targeted these and brought them to the rescue centre for taming, worming, microchipping, passporting etc. In total 30 beautiful, healthy, useful horses and ponies were rehomed. Currently Clwyd has 22 horses which are in beautiful condition. We still have approximately 12 to catch and rehome, leaving Clwyd hopefully with less than 10 older mares and no stallion. 

My remit has been at all times to help Clwyd to help his horses which he does indeed love.
		
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Sadly, people will accept that without looking into it further. They _want_ to believe in Clwyd the "Welsh hero" (quoted form the FB page). I suspect those poor ponies are his, personally. 

We just have to hope the law takes adequate action in sentencing.


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

I'm interested that Michelle says 




			One problem was inadequate worming because Clwyd did not understand the different types of worms and how to treat them properly.
		
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Yet he's been a reputable breeder in the past? Odd.


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## competitiondiva (12 January 2013)

I thought that to fionam12...


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## Girlychu (12 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			I'm interested that Michelle says 



Yet he's been a reputable breeder in the past? Odd.
		
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Worming is a basic husbandry when you own a horse...its a must know.....tis odd.

If he has money to retain the services of a solicitor he should use it on his ponies...perhaps the donations will pay any ensuing court cases LOL.


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## sherry90 (12 January 2013)

Could anyone contact the RSPCA to confirm the photos of the horses or as a query ask to here the specifics of the charges he was found guilty of? The court report would sure make for interesting reading. I presume the RSPCA also have to have written reports of visits so presumably can confirm of these were his horses?


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## Shettie (12 January 2013)

I totally agree. 

Yes, surely there is no excuse not to know the different worms and wormers to do them. Any feed shop if you go in will ask you what you are worming for and even tell you what you should be doing/using. It is no excuse. 

Sadly there will be alot of maybe youngsters and inexperienced people who will see the program and go onto these facebook groups and think there is nothing wrong. Michelle has been shown as an experienced horse woman (No doubt saying she is or isn't, I don't know enough about her) but will then think these things are acceptable. 

A lady who is commenting on the group and most of Michelles posts and theres talking between them had her horses taken off her recently for neglect. If she is backing up his horses were in no way neglected etc it just makes me think even more they are.


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## sherry90 (12 January 2013)

I am in no way defending him in my post btw incase that is how it is read. I just like cold hard fact to rely on, plus although I wished no horse suffered in this way it would stop the 'welsh hero' nonesense if we had evidence it was him.


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## DizzyDoughnut (12 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			Yet he's been a reputable breeder in the past? Odd.
		
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Is what i thought....  how could he not know??


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## piebaldsparkle (12 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			I'm interested that Michelle says 




			One problem was inadequate worming because Clwyd did not understand the different types of worms and how to treat them properly.
		
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Yet he's been a reputable breeder in the past? Odd.
		
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I'm not as used to ride pass the property of a once respected GSD breeder and judge............The RSPCA had to intervene there too as the conditions were truly horrific.

I do believe hoarding is a form of mental illness and as such all logic and sense seems to go out the window.

I feel desperately sorry for the land owner he is squatting on and the horses who are caught up in the mess.  All horses need to be removed from his 'care' as he has NO WHERE to legally keep them!


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

piebaldsparkle said:



			I'm not as used to ride pass the property of a once respected GSD breeder and judge............The RSPCA had to intervene there too as the conditions were truly horrific.

I do believe hoarding is a form of mental illness and as such all logic and sense seems to go out the window.

I feel desperately sorry for the land owner he is squatting on and the horses who are caught up in the mess.  All horses need to be removed from his 'care' as he has NO WHERE to legally keep them!

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I'm not disputing that once respected breeders can't be cruel, just that his defence is he doesn't know about worming. Surely anyone who's bred horses must know that? 

If those photos are his animals, I hope the law forbids him from keeping horses, but I won't hold my breath.


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## piebaldsparkle (12 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			If those photos are his animals, I hope the law forbids him from keeping horses, but I won't hold my breath.
		
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Even if they aren't he should be banned.  Have just watched the program online and what kind of numpty chucks 10 horses including colt out with a herd that also includes colts.................  No wonder there was a casualty (dead filly).


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## Mongoose11 (12 January 2013)

I may be missing something but how do we know those pictures were anything to do with Clwyd?


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

piebaldsparkle said:



			Even if they aren't he should be banned.  Have just watched the program online and what kind of numpty chucks 10 horses including colt out with a herd that also includes colts.................  No wonder there was a casualty (dead filly).
		
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Michelle Crowther states the aim is to leave him with "less than 10 mares and no stallion". So unless the law's firm here, I expect he will end up with some.

It amazes me that on the FB group people came in and asked were those horrific photos Clwyd's ponies, and could this please be verified. The response was a statement by Michelle (hardly unbiased) who said she would ask Clwyd! And the Fb people are more than happy to accept that as an answer.


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

BillieBlitzen said:



			I may be missing something but how do we know those pictures were anything to do with Clwyd?
		
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We can't know for sure. There was more about it on the Facebook page, but they removed the posts. 

All people did was ask whether the photos were genuine and they got banned.


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## Star_Chaser (12 January 2013)

Part of the problem here is that 

1) we don't know who posted the photos and if they are honestly taken on the land that Clywd currently has his horses on.  How many times on here have the words 'Troll' been used??

2) we don't actually know they were his ponies in the photos - we may never know.

3) The property he obviously has access to was not discussed in the program beyond its obvious state of disrepair which was shown.  The only thing it mentioned was that he had been a resident there for 8 years.  Surely ownership could be easily found by a quick check on the land registry??  Removal of a person who is evicted from a property does not normally take 8 years however if he is squatting illegally then it is fair to assume it is not a simple or easy procedure.  In which case I feel for the people who do own the land and property it must be devastating to see it in a state of such disrepair. A lack of sons is one thing when it comes to working the land but renting the land out to someone who is looking to farm the land... such a shame with so many young farmers desperate to own or lease their own place.

4) yes you could hear dogs in the back ground but you also saw people walking their dogs whilst he was in the bath so you could rightly assume locals use it and therefore the dog/s may not actually be his but reacting as mine would do.

I prefer fact to fiction and it is very difficult when reading or viewing based on the internet what is true and what is false.  What I do know from the program is that the RSPCA stepped in but their behaviour was not above reproach.  The horses that they took were in need of assistance and that the cases brought were we assume as a result of the animals removed from his care.  Some of those cases were not upheld.  If the photos were accurate and in the possession of the RSPCA at the time of the prosecution then surely any judge in their right mind would have stopped him from owning any animals in future and the rest of the herd would have been removed.  

If the RSPCA are still in the process of taking a person to court to stop them owning animals in future perhaps this is why there has been no statement from them.  

If Clywd still has 22 horses and 10 are going to be caught, dealt with and sold on leaving a more manageable herd minus any stallions (forgetting the fact that a dedicated breeder will still be able to bring in a stallion if they want to breed)  then I for one would support the further reduction in the herd.  Having seen photos of some of the horses he has produced I wouldn't mind one myself.

Regarding the donations transparency in any action is always how any charity or organisation should behave.  Even if it is just to show a little respect for the donors and the tax man who will always want his share of any proceeds.

It is worth questioning and taking with a little pinch of salt everything that we read.  Most things are easily proved with a little dedicated research.  I don't have the time or the inclination for that but I am sure someone will.  What I do find difficult to believe is that based on a thread on a forum so many are prepared to either donate or condemn with very little evidence.


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

Star_Chaser said:



			3) The property he obviously has access to was not discussed in the program beyond its obvious state of disrepair which was shown.  The only thing it mentioned was that *he had been a resident there for 8 years*.  Surely ownership could be easily found by a quick check on the land registry??  Removal of a person who is evicted from a property does not normally take 8 years however if he is squatting illegally then it is fair to assume it is not a simple or easy procedure.  In which case I feel for the people who do own the land and property it must be devastating to see it in a state of such disrepair. A lack of sons is one thing when it comes to working the land but renting the land out to someone who is looking to farm the land... such a shame with so many young farmers desperate to own or lease their own place.
		
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Are you sure it said 8 years? He was evicted from the Mostyn Estate in 2009. 
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/WALES...+me+off+farm;+Tenant,+65,+vows+to...-a0192611


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## Mongoose11 (12 January 2013)

Anyone who at this point is assuming that those horses are Clwyd is potentially making an ass out of themselves (you see what i did there?). Now would be exactly the right time for this kind of troll to rear its head. The show was clear about cinvictions and charges, if there had been earlier involvement and neglect to a far greater extent than shown in the programme then I seriously doubt any programme maker would have dared to put any hint of a positive spin on Clwyd.


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## sherry90 (12 January 2013)

That's why is asked if anyone thought the RSPCA would confirm it BillieBlitzen. I wonder if they would? Or even if they wouldn't speculate from photos (which its likely they wouldn't) would the court report be released and be accessible (like Spindles Farm was) so it could be figured out what he was actually guilty of? It would be interesting of so.


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## sherry90 (12 January 2013)

*if ( damn Iphone!)


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## DizzyDoughnut (12 January 2013)

Whether or not those photos are of his horses... he has still been found guilty of neglect and seems to be illegally squatting on the land hes on now, so I really don't see how or why he should be left with any horses never mind reducing the numbers to under 10 mares, when he apparently doesn't have even a basic knowledge of care/worming, even an idiot, if they saw their horses looking like that would think something is wrong and also because he's squatting where he is hes also got nowhere to keep them. I think he knew full well what he was doing.


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## piebaldsparkle (12 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			Are you sure it said 8 years? He was evicted from the Mostyn Estate in 2009.
		
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He was evicted in 2009 but had been there 35yrs (by the looks of it).

http://daily-post.vlex.co.uk/vid/estate-bully-farm-tenant-vows-eviction-70640175




			A DISTRAUGHT tenant farmer was last night facing eviction from the land he has occupied for 35 years.

Clwyd Davies, who turned 65 yesterday, claimed he is being forced out by Mostyn Estates after his rent was almost doubled.

He now fears his beloved horses and ponies will be sold off cheaply or left to run wild on his 39-acre holding at Bryn Digrif Farm, Trelogan, near Holywell.

Mr Davies yesterday won an eleventh-hour legal attempt to delay tomorrow's eviction by 28 days.

"I have no intention of retiring," he said.

"They want me to sit in a quiet corner and die. But farming is in &#8230;
		
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## piebaldsparkle (12 January 2013)

DizzyDoughnut said:



			Whether or not those photos are of his horses... he has still been found guilty of neglect and seems to be illegally squatting on the land hes on now, so I really don't see how or why he should be left with any horses never mind reducing the numbers to under 10 mares,
		
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^^^This if he were a gypsy, I wonder if people would feel differently?  He is effectively fly grazing after all!


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## Mongoose11 (12 January 2013)

DizzyDoughnut said:



			Whether or not those photos are of his horses... he has still been found guilty of neglect and seems to be illegally squatting on the land hes on now, so I really don't see how or why he should be left with any horses never mind reducing the numbers to under 10 mares, when he apparently doesn't have even a basic knowledge of care/worming, even an idiot, if they saw their horses looking like that would think something is wrong and also because he's squatting where he is hes also got nowhere to keep them. I think he knew full well what he was doing.
		
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The neglect that he has been convicted of is of a completely different level to the neglect shown in those photos. Don't go down the route of 'neglect is neglect' because it isn't. Not in the eyes of the law or any sensible person. It matters a great deal if those pictures aren't connected to him as this will change things entirely and so it should.


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## Mongoose11 (12 January 2013)

piebaldsparkle said:



			^^^This if he were a gypsy, I wonder if people would feel differently?  He is effectively fly grazing after all!
		
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If he were a gypsy the members on here would be sending all of their money and their underwear by now!


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## FionaM12 (12 January 2013)

piebaldsparkle said:



			^^^This if he were a gypsy, I wonder if people would feel differently?  He is effectively fly grazing after all!
		
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Quite. Travellers squatting with their ponies get short shift here.


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## FionaM12 (13 January 2013)

BillieBlitzen said:



			The neglect that he has been convicted of is of a completely different level to the neglect shown in those photos. Don't go down the route of 'neglect is neglect' because it isn't. Not in the eyes of the law or any sensible person. It matters a great deal if those pictures aren't connected to him as this will change things entirely and so it should.
		
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True, but the photo released by the RSPCA is comparable to those.

I would really like to know if those are his ponies. I've no idea if it's possible to find out?


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## piebaldsparkle (13 January 2013)

BillieBlitzen said:



			If he were a gypsy the members on here would be sending all of their money and their underwear by now! 

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## Star_Chaser (13 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			Are you sure it said 8 years? He was evicted from the Mostyn Estate in 2009. 
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/WALES...+me+off+farm;+Tenant,+65,+vows+to...-a0192611

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I'm sure I read somewhere it was 8 years but it could easily be an error Ive read a lot about this over the last few days the program states 3 years ago so you are right!! My apologies I am certainly happy to be corrected. The program write up does say that he is squatting in a derelict farm house.  

_Pensioner Clwyd Davies harbours a compulsion to hoard horses. Squatting in a derelict farmhouse without heating, electricity or warm water, he dedicates his every waking moment to caring for the 52 untamed horses he has collected, and in some cases bred.

Forgoing the most rudimentary comforts of modern living, Clwyd, who's 68, maintains an extraordinary existence; not in the remote countryside, but on a housing estate on the edge of Wrexham, where his eccentricities appear to make him invisible to his neighbours.

His is a tale of just one outsider, the likes of which exist in almost every British town. No one knows who they are and why they lead such isolated lives, and usually no one bothers to find out.

For Clwyd, there is one exception: Michelle Crowther, who's 44, runs a livery stables and also rescues horses. She has struck up a friendship with Clwyd, recognising a kindred spirit in his devotion to his horses.

Despite Clwyd's evident affinity with the horses, Michelle has recognised that he is struggling to care for both the horses and himself, so she begins to help him.

But Clwyd discovers someone else has taken an interest: he has been anonymously reported to the RSPCA for neglect and cruelty to animals. He faces having his horses removed, prosecution and a potential prison sentence if he does not comply.

This documentary follows Clwyd's battle, with Michelle's support, to keep his horses.

It explores the events in his past that have led this one-time award-winning horse breeder and family man to isolate himself and live rough in squalid conditions with only horses and pigeons for company, and asks questions of a society that can sometimes appear to put the needs of animals above those of humans._


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## Mongoose11 (13 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			True, but the photo released by the RSPCA is comparable to those.

I would really like to know if those are his ponies. I've no idea if it's possible to find out?
		
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Really? Are they? Comparable to a horse left with a broken leg and rotting carcasses? Hardly.....


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## FionaM12 (13 January 2013)

BillieBlitzen said:



			Really? Are they? Comparable to a horse left with a broken leg and rotting carcasses? Hardly.....
		
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I've only seen one photo, and it looked appalling.


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## Ambers mum (13 January 2013)

I feel thT someone needs to get the company involved with the programme to make a follow up programme and not just visit Cywd but normal horse owners off here too for a more biased view of horse ownership


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## Mongoose11 (13 January 2013)

glesni said:



			A horse with a broken leg and a rotten carcase are comparible..... the horse with the broken leg could soon become a rotting carcase. He cant look after himself never mind horses. end of
		
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You appear to have missed my point. I think it was suggested that in the photos the RSPCA had released of Clwyds horses the animals were in a comparable state to the ones in the very distressing thread. The ones released by the RSPCA show thin, wormy horses that need a farrier. I was suggesting those pictures were not comparable neglect to a horse with a broken leg or rotting carcasses.... Different level of neglect entirely.

Please keep up.


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## FionaM12 (13 January 2013)

BillieBlitzen said:



			You appear to have missed my point. I think it was suggested that the photos the RSPCA had released of Clwyds horses were in a comparable state to the ones in the very distressing thread. The ones released by the RSPCA show thin, wormy horses that need a farrier. I was suggesting those pictures were not comparable neglect to a horse with a broken leg or rotting carcasses.... Different level of neglect entirely.

Please keep up.
		
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I think we're talking about different photos, Billie. could you give me a link to the ones you've seen please? Thanks!


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## Mongoose11 (13 January 2013)

Please don't fall into the very naive and foolish viewpoint of 'neglect is neglect' because you will end up looking like a moron.

Neglect isn't neglect. Not in the eyes of the law or any reasonable person. 

Leaving my dog without water for one day would be classed as neglect. Leaving my dog without water for four days would be neglect. One of those would be more likely to result in death of the animal and is therefore a more serious charge.

Neglect isn't neglect. There are varying degrees.


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## Mongoose11 (13 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			I think we're talking about different photos, Billie. could you give me a link to the ones you've seen please? Thanks!
		
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I viewed it on my PC Fiona and so don't have it, have tried trawling but can't find the exact ones... I could post in the morning?


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## FionaM12 (13 January 2013)

BillieBlitzen said:



			I viewed it on my PC Fiona and so don't have it, have tried trawling but can't find the exact ones... I could post in the morning?
		
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Yes, thanks.


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## horsesatemymoney (13 January 2013)

With the Rileyboy thread, didn't somebody find the picture that he posted, on google? Could somebody not check this picture the same way- to see if it's not a random google picture- I don't know how to do it, but at least that might try and show if it is/is not genuine?


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## Foxhunter49 (13 January 2013)

Hoarding is a mental illness, and, from what little I know about it, the hoarders really believe that no one will look after their animals better than they can. 

I do not believe he is a horse lover at all. To have horses in the numbers he has and to allow them to breed indiscriminately is not loving the animals.

It seems that the filming for this took place in the summer where I would expect the horses to look as they did. Be different this time of the year.

I have no time at all for the RSPCA and they made themselves look tight idiots and certainly had little clue as to how to handle the horses.

I do not care who he is, he has no sympathy from me. I leave that for the horses.
If I were making a donation it would be in the form of wormers or hay.


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## FionaM12 (13 January 2013)

glesni said:



			ITS NEGLECT
		
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No-one (including Michelle who's helping him) is denying he's neglected horses. The question is how severe the neglect is, and whether it will continue in the future.

We have no idea if those awful photos with the dead ones and the mare with a broken leg are his ponies. They might not be. But if they are, his "neglect" is of a far worse level than suspected before.


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## DizzyDoughnut (13 January 2013)

BillieBlitzen said:



			The neglect that he has been convicted of is of a completely different level to the neglect shown in those photos. Don't go down the route of 'neglect is neglect' because it isn't. Not in the eyes of the law or any sensible person. It matters a great deal if those pictures aren't connected to him as this will change things entirely and so it should.
		
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I wasn't saying they weren't a different level of neglect....


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## Mongoose11 (13 January 2013)

DizzyDoughnut said:



			I wasn't saying they weren't a different level of neglect....
		
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Glesni was.....


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## YorksG (13 January 2013)

Surely the convictions for neglect/cruelty are known, the photographs supposedly of his horses posted by someone who claims she was on his land some years ago either were,or were not reported to RSPCA or whoever. Carcasses of dead animals, do not necessarily indicate the neglect of horses, they do indicate improper disposal of fallen stock. There is nothing to indicate the date and place that those pictures were taken.


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## shelly19 (13 January 2013)

I believe he loves his horses but think the supporters are misguided and are doing these horses no favours with their support for this "poor old man". 

Evidence of a dead foal as he had introduced another herd and stallion was enough for me! Such a irresponsible thing to do.


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## YorksG (13 January 2013)

glesni said:



			I personally would not leave any animal without water for one day, 2 days or whatever. It appears that certain people on this forum see nothing wrong in the way these horses are kept. He is an old man who has had a tragedy, lets defend him and send him money.  Also being new to this forum there are some very unfriendly belittling people who I have no altenative other than to press the ignore button.
		
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I think you have misunderstood what people have been saying, no-one is condoning neglect, but neither are they accepting pictures posted on an internet site as evidence. I doubt if anyone on these boards are sending him any money.


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## FionaM12 (13 January 2013)

glesni said:



			I personally would not leave any animal without water for one day, 2 days or whatever. It appears that certain people on this forum see nothing wrong in the way these horses are kept. He is an old man who has had a tragedy, lets defend him and send him money.  Also being new to this forum there are some very unfriendly belittling people who I have no altenative other than to press the ignore button.
		
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I honestly don't think anyone here thinks there was nothing wrong with how his horses were kept. I've not seen any posts saying that.


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## bow1607 (13 January 2013)

I think you all need to see the responses to the post again, the original poster has now stated who they are (and can be checked by there IP address) and also the dates on the photo have been checked (not sure how but someone on there has stated this??) I won't post my feelings again on here as I have already posted them on there


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## Passtheshampoo (13 January 2013)

Am I the only one to think that to leave Clywd with 10 plus horses after reducing numbers is still far too many for him to care for properly? I have my own land (bought and paid for) and keep 2 mares. My husband works and it's a  still struggle to make sure they have everything they need.  Perhaps the programme makers should have visited in the depths of winter to see what forage the horses are given, I would suspect that it is very little or none.


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## Mongoose11 (13 January 2013)

For someone new to the forum Glesni sure knows a fair bit about the UI function *suss*


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## Brigadoon (13 January 2013)

I don't think we will ever know the full story of Clwyd. The programme was a snapshot basically of his life and horses. 30 minutes of his life really only showed us the tip of the iceberg. It was poorly edited and appeared to take his side.
We were shown him feeding his horses ( throwing food into the mud) but it was clearly not enough.
He seemed to be attracted to Michelle at the start of the programme and then later on seemed to be "coached" into seeing her as a daughter.
We saw him in the bath and he certainly was not a thin man so appeared to be eating well himself.
Hoarding is an illness and he perhaps has other unresolved mental issues.
But the the fact remains this man has dozens of neglected horses under his ownership. As usual the RSPCA have done a monumentally poor job and leave dozens of horses in his care. The 30 mins of documentary did show us how poor many these animals were. 
Michelle appears to have a "sanctuary" but am I being rotten when I say her grazing was weed-ridden, over grazed and needed poo picked?! Her horses looked in decent condition 'tho. 
God knows what the answer is for these poor horses as the RSPCA seem unwilling to help until it becomes a Spindle Farm type scenario.
They need to grow a set and take the lot from him. It sounds dreadful but perhaps the whole lot of poor horses should be pts. They will have long term problems from worm damage and poorly balanced feet. Many could be inter-bred. Rescues are full to bursting and we are only halfway thru the winter. Goodness knows what state the horses are in now.....they filmed in the spring/summer.
Giving him money will just perpetrate the situation and encourage him to hoard more horses.
I saw the alleged photo's of his horses from a few years ago. But why would the horses in the photos not be his?! It certainly seems to be the way he operates. 
And if he is squatting in someone's house/land the law needs to address this firmly.
Channel 4 have plenty cash and perhaps need to follow through after giving us a tiny peek into the dreadful world these poor animals live in. 
The over riding concern is certainly for the horses, nor Clwyd.


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## PandorasJar (13 January 2013)

I didn't watch the problem and don't intend to but if those photos are his horses then he shouldn't have been left with any horses. Regardless of any mental illness. That is an entirely different issue which should be dealt with if he is mentally ill.
As he's plead guilty to the neglect why are any left with him or will they be removed?
They would be better off pts as brigadoon says than left in a field with carcasses and if the first photos are his.. broken/severely damaged legs


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## Queenbee (13 January 2013)

glesni said:



			Also I wouldnt be taking any notice of a woman who had a crazy idea to breed top race horses and failed miserably so turned her hand to gypsy cobs!!
		
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Regardless of my opinion on the whole Michelle, clywd, horses, RSPCA thing, what the hell does the above statement have to do with anything???!


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## competitiondiva (13 January 2013)

Just so people are aware, if horses are seized a vet would have been on site to say which are suffering, only those the vet deems need removing can be removed. The RSPCA can only remove with police these. And Billie I'm not aware of what pictures of the RSPCA horses you've seen. We've only seen one (flickr  picture) and you (or someone else now) keep saying 'he wouldn't have got off so lightly, they'd have banned him' when was he sentenced and what sentence. The only sentencing I'm aware of is posted on the RSPCA blog link that was posted on here saying sentencing is in April.


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## cronkmooar (13 January 2013)

horsesatemychristmasmoney said:



			With the Rileyboy thread, didn't somebody find the picture that he posted, on google? Could somebody not check this picture the same way- to see if it's not a random google picture- I don't know how to do it, but at least that might try and show if it is/is not genuine?
		
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This has been done by one of the Horse Gossip Moderators and the phots were all taken in May 2008 at the same time.

Apparently this is easy enough to see on photobucket - so they do not appear to be just random photos taken from google.

The girl who took the photos has comeout of anonymous status on HG and is standing by the photos.

Her friend that was with her had the time has also posted.

I think there is a good chance these photos are genuine - it also needs to be remembered that the girl that took the photos was only 14 at the time


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## MrsNorris (13 January 2013)

Just watched programme on the computer and can't feel any sympathy for this man. 

Anyone who would allow one of their 'much loved' horses to be chased around, stressed and frightened, and eventually darted by the RSPCA when he could have quietly caught it for them, is no horse lover IMO.

And to then sit there laughing about it??? 

Says to me just how he feels about his horses.


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## Mongoose11 (13 January 2013)

CompetitionDiva - my point exactly. If the photos that are being claimed to have been taken at Clywds yard (dead carcasses) were part of a previous investigation as suggested by the original poster then he would have received a lifetime ban for keeping animals. As he received no such ban and has never been subject to a ban then how can the pictures be part of a legitimate previous case against him?


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## brighteyes (13 January 2013)

Queenbee said:



			Regardless of my opinion on the whole Michelle, clywd, horses, RSPCA thing, what the hell does the above statement have to do with anything???!
		
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I take it to mean that prior to becoming the Angel Gabriel, Michelle was a failed racehorse-breeder who changed direction into breeding or dealing in gypsy cobs, and entirely easier animal to produce to a useful and saleable standard.

BillieBlitzen So what if it's a regular member on here- if this is the inside track, are we not allowed to hear it?


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## Mongoose11 (13 January 2013)

brighteyes said:



			I take it to mean that prior to becoming the Angel Gabriel, Michelle was a failed racehorse-breeder who changed direction into breeding or dealing in gypsy cobs, and entirely easier animal to produce to a useful and saleable standard.

BillieBlitzen So what if it's a regular member on here- if this is the inside track, are we not allowed to hear it?
		
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I haven't heard anything new from Glesni except something about another breeder who has nothing to do with Clwyd. I have only heard judgemental, biased opinion.... Which is fine too obviously


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## competitiondiva (13 January 2013)

Agree glesni if the grey was pts before rspca and the carcasses were beyond autopsy. There may have been insufficient evidence at the time for a prosecution. Of course it's all speculation as no one knows the facts here.


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## lastchancer (13 January 2013)

glesni said:



			What I have no time for is cyber bullies who throw nasty remarks whilst hiding behind their computer screen.I am a friendly honest person but find a certain member of this forum to be acid tongued . Most comments on forums are biased or personal opinion. I am not on these sites often as can be seen by the amount of post I have submitted. I am too busy looking after five horses and an in foal mare to be here all day posting comments in their thousands. I only came to see if anyone had commented on the programme as I found it quite sickening and false. I cant post details but it really is not what channel 4 have made out.
		
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What on earth are you ranting on about? No body on here has bullied you, nor is anyone defending this Man and his side kick. I haven't even seen the film so I couldn't possibly comment but if you have evidence/inside knowledge that could maybe be used to convict and maybe even prevent another Spindles Farm, then perhaps your efforts might be better spent speaking to the RSPCA/POLICE rather than picking rows on an anonymous forum.


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## Patterdale (13 January 2013)

If the grey mare had been destroyed before the RSPCA pitched up, they can prosecute him for it as there's no proof. The picture wouldn't be sufficient evidence. 
He also can't be prosecuted for the carcasses as they were too badly decomposed to see how they died.
Even if you COULD prove that malnutrition or similar caused the deaths, you couldn't prove that it was HIS fault. 
(I'm NOT saying I think it wasn't his fault - just saying how it stands from a legal viewpoint)

All he could be prosecuted for is what's alive and there as proof. 
The dead ones, he can only be prosecuted for failing to correctly dispose of the carcasses. 

If the photos were from his place (which I suspect they were) then I can see how he would have slipped out of a ban.


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## Cortez (13 January 2013)

BillieBlitzen said:



			Really? Are they? Comparable to a horse left with a broken leg and rotting carcasses? Hardly.....
		
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Broken leg? That looks like an angular limb deformity that wasn't corrected to me. Probably should have been put down as a foal, but you can also splint these type of congenital defects.


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## Amymay (13 January 2013)

Glensi, please make sire you contact the RSPCA with any additional information you have.


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## brighteyes (13 January 2013)

lastchancer said:



			What on earth are you ranting on about? No body on here has bullied you, nor is anyone defending this Man and his side kick. I haven't even seen the film so I couldn't possibly comment but if you have evidence/inside knowledge that could maybe be used to convict and maybe even prevent another Spindles Farm, then perhaps your efforts might be better spent speaking to the RSPCA/POLICE rather than picking rows on an anonymous forum.
		
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Not this thread, true  *BB* has taken an unnecessarily high tone, though, I feel. *suss*  ???  Uncalled for. This forum uses a generic platform and UI is found on many other forums using a similar one.


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## brighteyes (13 January 2013)

glesni said:



			Im not registered to Facebook but his support page can be seen by all. There are lots of people pledging feed, rugs, buckets etc and even cheques. Comments such as "Thank gooodness there are still men like him around" its shocking. As I stated earlier if I left my horses to irrisponsibly inbreed into spiraling unmanageable numbers would the same be said about me.
		
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Nope. Thank you for posting


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## brighteyes (13 January 2013)

Cortez said:



			Broken leg? That looks like an *angular limb deformity* that wasn't corrected to me. Probably should have been put down as a foal, but you can also splint these type of congenital defects.
		
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I thought this.


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## amandap (13 January 2013)

Cortez said:



			Broken leg? That looks like an angular limb deformity that wasn't corrected to me. Probably should have been put down as a foal, but you can also splint these type of congenital defects.
		
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Isn't this common in inbreeding? If my memory serves me right a vet doing a talk at an ISPCA centre I went to was talking about this and counselling against inbreeding/letting horses run wild in mixed herds. He sees a lot of genetic deformity apparently over here in Ireland.

Letting horses run wild cannot be called breeding anyway imo.


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## whisp&willow (13 January 2013)

I also thought it looked like a limb deformity, not a broken leg.  

regardless:  I watched the programme.  I thought it was very strange.  Most of the horses looked ok, although NOT remotely ideal.

I would never send any money, but a fool and their money are easily parted as they say-  the power of tv.

What needs to happen probably never will-  as much as he likes to think he cares for his horses, he is unable to do so properly.  He needs to help himself before he can help horses.  Even if the rspca managed to take every single horse away from him, he would have more in the blink of an eye.  

Not supporting or condoning-  just stating my opinion.


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## Star_Chaser (13 January 2013)

amandap said:



			Isn't this common in inbreeding? If my memory serves me right a vet doing a talk at an ISPCA centre I went to was talking about this and counselling against inbreeding/letting horses run wild in mixed herds. He sees a lot of genetic deformity apparently over here in Ireland.

Letting horses run wild cannot be called breeding anyway imo. 

Click to expand...

We have plenty of wild herds in the UK.  A good proportion of our native breeds


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## amandap (13 January 2013)

Star_Chaser said:



			We have plenty of wild herds in the UK.  A good proportion of our native breeds
		
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Yes, I think the difference is the truly free roaming horses are free not fenced in a field with their dams and sires. Also they are managed.


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## equus.online (13 January 2013)

Good grief! It was a TV programme and this is an internet forum - neither have any basis in fact - useless speculation all round. Only people directly involved know the truth.


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## Star_Chaser (13 January 2013)

amandap said:



			Yes, I think the difference is the truly free roaming horses are free not fenced in a field with their dams and sires. Also they are managed.
		
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so the only difference is that one is in a smaller area than the other....


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## Patterdale (13 January 2013)

Quite a big difference star chaser actually, means truly wild horses are far less likely to impregnate their own mothers.


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## amandap (13 January 2013)

Star_Chaser said:



			so the only difference is that one is in a smaller area than the other....   

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Lol, not quite. Horses living in a very large area do appear to have ways of controlling inbreeding themselves through their behaviour and in native herds the colts, fillys and older mares and stallions are sorted/sold off and the herds are generally managed in various ways. Leaving a mixed herd in a field for years and letting them get on with it isn't the same imo but I admit I'm no authority! lol


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## Equilibrium Ireland (13 January 2013)

Wait, so we think the pictures are bogus and the TV show were just facts given in an unbiased manner? It's very hard to follow. But I get the distinct impression that even if the pictures turn out to be real it's still not good enough. It will be explained away. 

You know sometimes people who make waves, whistleblowers, do in fact get it right. And yet we're all so busy denouncing them and playing the troll card, more horses suffer. Again I will allude to the case going on in California. Because 4 years ago people were reporting on a public BB that things weren't adding up. That 2.5 acres was not an ideal spot to run a breeding farm from. But you know what those people that raised concerns were bashed and ridiculed. The only reason they'd say anything negative was because those people were jealous. So now after 4 years it looks like things are going to change. 4 horses have been siezed and more likely. But to do it right, to shut this person down, it takes time and nothing can be done wrong or the law will side with the person that created the mess. 

I can't for the life of me understand how anyone thinks this man should keep 10 horses. How any horse lover thinks this is ok because this man has had a tough life. This will sound crass but many parents lose children. He is not the only one. It's sad, it really is but it doesn't excuse the 52 horses that are suffering. And the ones who have suffered and died previous. At any time any of us can be delt a lousy hand in life. It may mean we lose the animals we love. But at the end of the day we have choices when we choose to be animal guardians. Our needs come second to doing the right thing by them as they can't make the choices for themselves. So you either can handle getting on what life has thrown at you with the animals or you get them safe and then deal with yourself. 

Terri


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## Mongoose11 (13 January 2013)

Brighteyes... I seem to have taken an 'unecessarily' high tone with Gelnsi because I received some odd PMs from them last night. The first one was wishing to know my location - odd.....


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## Cortez (13 January 2013)

equus.online said:



			Good grief! It was a TV programme and this is an internet forum - neither have any basis in fact - useless speculation all round. Only people directly involved know the truth.
		
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Absolutely 100% correct.


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## Mongoose11 (13 January 2013)

When I made reference to 'a broken leg' in the pictures it was because this is how is was referred to in the original post by the person who supposedly took those photos. That person stated that the leg was broken 

But yes, unlikely and more likely deformed.


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## Mongoose11 (13 January 2013)

Glesni. Feel free to put me on UI I stated that I received odd PMs from you. In my opinion they were odd. You sent me them unsolicited and they were unwanted. Hence my reply to you.


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## MerrySherryRider (13 January 2013)

BillieBlitzen said:



			CompetitionDiva - my point exactly. If the photos that are being claimed to have been taken at Clywds yard (dead carcasses) were part of a previous investigation as suggested by the original poster then he would have received a lifetime ban for keeping animals. As he received no such ban and has never been subject to a ban then how can the pictures be part of a legitimate previous case against him?
		
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he has been convicted following another successful prosecution by the RSPCA. Sentencing has been deferred until 12/04/13 to give time for arrangements for the remaining horses to be made.

The RSPCA had been working with Mr Davies for some time and had rehomed some of his stock in order to help him cope. Prosecution was a last resort after everything else had failed.

Those who think sending money, rugs and wormers to this man would be sentencing more horses to neglect and suffering.

Hopefully,he will get a life time ban on keeping horses, this is the only way to ensure an end to the horses suffering. Something that can only be achieved by prosecution.

Perhaps, the court will ensure that Mr Davies also will get help for his mental health issues, if he wishes this.


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## Mongoose11 (13 January 2013)

Goodness Glesni. If having a differing opinion makes me a cyber bully then so be it - very odd. Yes I do have one horse but I am surrounded by women who have a lifetime of experience over my mere 8 years so you couldn't be further from the truth with your accusation. Not entirely sure what that has to do with my opinion on this case?


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## Mongoose11 (13 January 2013)

Glesni - the original post says the grey was destroyed before the RSPCA arrived - suggesting that they were in atendance.


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## Puzzles (13 January 2013)

Those poor horses! Regardless of whose fault it was, who is guilty of what and who is to blame, those horses have endured immense suffering and that cannot be undermined or eased.


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## brighteyes (13 January 2013)

BillieBlitzen said:



			Glesni. Feel free to put me on UI I stated that I received odd PMs from you. In my opinion they were odd. You sent me them unsolicited and they were unwanted. Hence my reply to you.
		
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Not this thread, true BB has _recently_ taken an unnecessarily high tone, though, I feel. *suss* ??? Uncalled for. This forum uses a generic platform and UI is found on many other forums using a similar one. 


Apologies for the omission of the word recently - I never suggested you had targetted *glesni*. Is this to be your usual heavy-handed approach, the suggestion we all head for the UI button? You have been coming across as snippy and defensive - and if I was in the least bit twitchy, I'd say your reaction was *sus*pect/picious!


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## Mongoose11 (13 January 2013)

Brighteyes. I think you have me wrong. I would never have suggested that Glesni put me on UI had she not threatened it twice a few pages ago. When Glesni mentioned doing it for the 3rd time (I think, I would have to check) I then posted and said that she is more than welcome to put me on UI. So - a response to a suggestion. Not a suggestion made by me. I am defensive and snippy as it gets my goat when people assume things so strongly. Nobody has proof that the pictures we are debating were taken on Clywds land. I am not defending him just getting snippy at the ridiculous 'guilty as charged because someone on the internet said so' approach.


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## brighteyes (13 January 2013)

glesni said:



			BILLYBLITZEN.  the only reason i asked what "AREA" you were in , not your location was because i wondered if you personally knew these people.I was simply trying to be friendly and I am in no way odd. There is no need to take a nasty tone. You recieved one PM from me to which your reply was belittleing and nasty and petty regarding my grammar. Take a look at your own grammar!!! UI will defo be needed.
		
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I have often asked this in a PM - I have never been accused of being sinister or having an agenda. They either tell me or they say they'd prefer not to. 

 *_wonders about some folks_*


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## Patterdale (13 January 2013)

Well I couldn't sit on my hands any longer and I've finally commented on that fb page. 
Cannot actually believe how blinkered people are. 
It's making me so so cross that this man is being given the means to continue keeping horses on land he's squatting on and after cruelty convictions. 
The worlds gone mad.


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## Mongoose11 (13 January 2013)

Brighteyes I feel very strongly that you are being unfair. I had an unsolicited PM from Glensi asking for my location, I said I didn't want to give that information out to someone I don't know but i am sure they could find the info if they needed to. I was then accused of playing games which I thought was odd. I had simply stated that I didn't want to reveal my location and felt no reason to. Why would you assume that you know what was said in Glensi's PMs to me or that I shouldn't have taken offense to them?


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## Mongoose11 (13 January 2013)

brighteyes said:



			I have often asked this in a PM - I have never been accused of being sinister or having an agenda. They either tell me or they say they'd prefer not to. 

 *_wonders about some folks_*
		
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I didn't accuse Glensi of being sinister or having an agenda. Why would you put words into my mouth? I said the PMs were odd and unsolicited. I said nothing more than that. The PMs were odd and unsolicited. PMs often are unsolicited of course but nonetheless.


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## Mongoose11 (13 January 2013)

Brighteyes would you mind addressing the accusation of my being unreasonable for jumping to suggest the Glensi put my on UI? It wasn't my suggestion it was hers - pages back. I am feeling rather got at here. Feel free to get at me but let's make it factual?


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## Floxie (13 January 2013)

... I'm thinking that this sort of thing is exactly what the PM system is intended for...


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## Mongoose11 (13 January 2013)

Ok Floxie. Yes I get that. I said I wasn't happy to reveal my location to a stranger and the next message said 'oh I see, it's a little game is it'. I thought that was odd. I'm done defending myself now - this is getting too weird with people assuming they know what was said in PMs to ME


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## rascal (13 January 2013)

Im tempted to join fb just to comment on this.
Its crazy that this person is not only being allowed to keep ANY animal at all after seeing those photos on horse gossip, and the programe. But he is being helped to do so by donations!! 
Its people who dont know horses and think they "are rescuing the cute little ponies"


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## lula (13 January 2013)

BillieBlitzen said:



			Glesni. Feel free to put me on UI I stated that I received odd PMs from you. In my opinion they were odd. You sent me them unsolicited and they were unwanted. Hence my reply to you.
		
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oh dear- this must make me very odd then!

how does someone know when they send you a pm whether its wanted of not though? its a little unfair to be calling some one odd simply because they pm'd you first.

seems just a misunderstanding to me although you have a tad jumped to the conclusion Glesni had suspect intentions for some reason.

anyway, 

moving on.


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## Queenbee (13 January 2013)

brighteyes said:



			I take it to mean that prior to becoming the Angel Gabriel, Michelle was a failed racehorse-breeder who changed direction into breeding or dealing in gypsy cobs, and entirely easier animal to produce to a useful and saleable standard.

BillieBlitzen So what if it's a regular member on here- if this is the inside track, are we not allowed to hear it?
		
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My point though, is that it bears absolutely no relevance to the current issue, there are many that try and fail to produce winning sucessfull racehorses, this does not reflect on the current situation.

Im not doubting OP or the credibility/origins of the pictures but the fact that michelle once dabbled in producing racehorses and then changed to cobs... is of no consequence in this debate.  Furthermore, I understand that OP is quite impassioned about this, but the tone of that particular remark was incredibly scathing


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## Mongoose11 (13 January 2013)

No no Lula. Once again people seem unable to grasp my point. The content was odd. You guys don't know what the content was because I CAN'T POST IT. Imo it was odd - that's ok. Its ok for me to not like the content of a pm (not the first pm) the second pm and to think it is odd. Jeez. *brick wall*


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## FionaM12 (13 January 2013)

Patterdale said:



			Well I couldn't sit on my hands any longer and I've finally commented on that fb page. 
Cannot actually believe how blinkered people are. 
It's making me so so cross that this man is being given the means to continue keeping horses on land he's squatting on and after cruelty convictions. 
The worlds gone mad.
		
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So, have you joined the "Banned from posting on the Fb page" club yet? 

I got banned yesterday. For asking questions.


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## competitiondiva (13 January 2013)

Rascal, this may all be addressed when he is sentenced in April, if a ban is imposed then ALL his horses will have to go. I can only assume that the reason the RSPCA had not issued much about this is because his sentence hadn't yet been given?


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## Queenbee (13 January 2013)

glesni said:



			P.M. as follows glesni.. Hello, may i ask what area you are from.
                     BB       ERM nope.
                     Glesni   oh its like a game is it, sorry to have bothered you
                     BB        dont give out my location, not sure what it has to do
                                 with you, your naieve views or your inabitity to write 
                                 in sentences.

 That to me was a horrible way to treat someone who was merely asking what area, not location you were from. Nothing strange about it, I wondered if you were in the same area as the people in the programme. As for unsolicited PM . That is pathetic and accusing as if i was some sort of cyber pest trying to find out where you live. Strikes me you are an unfriendly horrible person who likes to belittle people, especially newcomers to this forum.
		
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To be fair, If I declined to give out my location to you and you responded with a childish/flounce reply such as 'oh its like a game is it, sorry to have bothered you'.  You would have either a) had no response at all, (such an attitude being constituted as unworthy of my bothering to reply) or b) a similarly scathing response as above.

And no it is not a horrible way to treat someone, it is merely an appropriate response to your second PM


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## Amymay (13 January 2013)

Inter post bickering - is there any need??


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## smokey (13 January 2013)

Queenbee said:



			To be fair, If I declined to give out my location to you and you responded with a childish/flounce reply such as 'oh its like a game is it, sorry to have bothered you'.  You would have either a) had no response at all, (such an attitude being constituted as unworthy of my bothering to reply) or b) a similarly scathing response as above.

And no it is not a horrible way to treat someone, it is merely an appropriate response to your second PM




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this completely! 
has Patterdale been banned yet? I've been trying to work out which post is hers.  Now Michelle is asking for a wood burner and a cooker for Clwyd, you couldnt make it up!


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## guido16 (13 January 2013)

glesni said:



			P.M. as follows glesni.. Hello, may i ask what area you are from.
                     BB       ERM nope.
                     Glesni   oh its like a game is it, sorry to have bothered you
                     BB        dont give out my location, not sure what it has to do
                                 with you, your naieve views or your inability to write 
                                 in sentences.

 That to me was a horrible way to treat someone who was merely asking what area, not location you were from. Nothing strange about it, I wondered if you were in the same area as the people in the programme. As for unsolicited PM!how does anyone know when to or when not to PM someone. That is pathetic and accusing as if i was some sort of cyber pest trying to find out where you live. Strikes me you are an unfriendly horrible person who likes to belittle people, especially newcomers to this forum.
		
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REALLY bad manners to share a PM. The clue is in the word "private" glensi. 

Get over it. Please.


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## guido16 (13 January 2013)

smokey said:



			this completely! 
has Patterdale been banned yet? I've been trying to work out which post is hers.  Now Michelle is asking for a wood burner and a cooker for Clwyd, you couldnt make it up!
		
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Patterdale is banned from the FB page, she said so in another thread. Isn't this fun!


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## FionaM12 (13 January 2013)

glesni said:



			FionaM12..what questions did you ask for them to feel they had to ban you from the page.
		
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I asked how they could be sure those photos (with the dead ponies) weren't his.    I said that _if_ they were he shouldn't be allowed to keep horses, but wondered if anyone could verify if they were or not. I can't remember exactly what else I said. Nothing nasty.


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## amandaco2 (13 January 2013)

I find it odd. Someone has amassed a lot of horses who are not being cared for on the most basic level and need to be rescued. Hero? The mind boggles.
Feel sorry for the horses and landowner


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## smokey (13 January 2013)

guido16 said:



			Patterdale is banned from the FB page, she said so in another thread. Isn't this fun!
		
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I'm still posting on it, don't know why I'm not banned yet! obviously not said anything too upsetting.


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## lula (13 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			So, have you joined the "Banned from posting on the Fb page" club yet? 

I got banned yesterday. For asking questions.
		
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i have.
for posting 2 comments in a 6 hour period it seems.
they really dont like valid points/questions being asked do they.

Billie, fair enough. I prolly shouldnt have commented. If you took the content of any pm you receive from someone you dont know as a little odd thats your right totally. As i said tho, seems just to be a misunderstanding thats got a little out of hand.

hey ho


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## leprechaun-lady (13 January 2013)

Why is this man and his helper being thought of as horse lovers. It was clear that she has befriended him but is surely in it for the money. Michelle knows Mr Davies is a pensioner but takes £35 per week from him for each horse. At one point in the film he got quite angry addmitting there would be "****** all" left for him. Also why should he feel the need for a computer to "see what his horses are making" if he trusts her so much. Is his appeal now a legit registered charity? With so many blinkered supporters sending money and goods what will happen to the surplus?


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## FionaM12 (13 January 2013)

smokey said:



			I'm still posting on it, don't know why I'm not banned yet! obviously not said anything too upsetting. 

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Lightweight.


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## smokey (13 January 2013)

Can I join the growing group of banned HHO ers in the naughty corner? Think asking if they could supply me with a touring caravan for my hols if they were buying one for clwyd was a step too far! Hey ho and all that, I'll miss them!


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## FionaM12 (13 January 2013)

smokey said:



			Can I join the growing group of banned HHO ers in the naughty corner? Think asking if they could supply me with a touring caravan for my hols if they were buying one for clwyd was a step too far! Hey ho and all that, I'll miss them!

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*budges up on the naughty step and offers Smokey a seat*


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## competitiondiva (13 January 2013)

Lol, love you lot you make me smile!!!!


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## smokey (13 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			*budges up on the naughty step and offers Smokey a seat* 

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Thank you Fiona, it's quite a squeeze here now, we may need another bench!


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## competitiondiva (13 January 2013)

Unlike the fb users!!!!! Have stopped looking now!


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## FionaM12 (13 January 2013)

smokey said:



			Thank you Fiona, it's quite a squeeze here now, we may need another bench! 

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"We're gonna need a bigger bench."    


(One for any movie buffs reading)


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## Queenbee (13 January 2013)

smokey said:



			this completely! 
has Patterdale been banned yet? I've been trying to work out which post is hers.  Now Michelle is asking for a wood burner and a cooker for Clwyd, you couldnt make it up!
		
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I only visited the FB page once days ago, but she was asking for a WB then.  I just think that the whole Clywd, Michelle, RSPCA debacle is so contentious and since I am not in the thick of it and therefore dont have the true facts, i really wouldn't touch defending, supporting, or running down with a barge pole.  Other than to say, regardless of any personal opinions of the RSPCA and their dealings and actions in general... I really do not envy them this case


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## rascal (13 January 2013)

competitiondiva said:



			Rascal, this may all be addressed when he is sentenced in April, if a ban is imposed then ALL his horses will have to go. I can only assume that the reason the RSPCA had not issued much about this is because his sentence hadn't yet been given?
		
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Hope your right.


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## Moomin1 (13 January 2013)

BillieBlitzen said:



			CompetitionDiva - my point exactly. If the photos that are being claimed to have been taken at Clywds yard (dead carcasses) were part of a previous investigation as suggested by the original poster then he would have received a lifetime ban for keeping animals. As he received no such ban and has never been subject to a ban then how can the pictures be part of a legitimate previous case against him?
		
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Just to point out BB, he wouldn't have necessarily recieved a lifetime ban, or even a ban at all.  It is all dependant on the magistrate on the day, and people sometimes do get away with no bans and minimal sentencing.

It's not always black and white.


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## Mohawk61 (13 January 2013)

_*originally posted by QueenBee*_



			Other than to say, regardless of any personal opinions of the RSPCA and their dealings and actions in general... I really do not envy them this case
		
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Yep.....I agree.....they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.....


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## leprechaun-lady (13 January 2013)

So is one to assume that Mrs Crowther and Mr Davies are about to install a wood burner into someone else's property that he is squatting in.And by the sound of it Electricity also !!


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## Queenbee (13 January 2013)

leprechaun-lady said:



			So is one to assume that Mrs Crowther and Mr Davies are about to install a wood burner into someone else's property that he is squatting in.And by the sound of it Electricity also !!
		
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## PeterNatt (13 January 2013)

I would suggest that anyone of that age would find it difficult to look after and manage one horse let alone the number he has.  Just think of the work involved in poo picking the fields for that number of horses.
There definately seems to be an issue in the breeding world were people just do not know when to let go and continue in to their old age when they neither have the physical strength to look after a large number of horses.
The other issue is that very few people at that age have kept up with the latest methods of equine management and veterinary care as is seen by the lack of worming of these horses.
I would also suggest that the collecting of this number of horses is related to a mental condition.
In Australia there is legislation to prevent people from having large number of animals  - if they wish to do so they have to apply for a licence and be regularly inspected.


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## FionaM12 (13 January 2013)

PeterNatt said:



			I would suggest that anyone of that age would find it difficult to look after and manage one horse let alone the number he has.  Just think of the work involved in poo picking the fields for that number of horses.
		
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Poo picking?  If those photos from a few years ago are to be believed, he doesn't pick up their dead bodies, never mind their poo.


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## smokey (13 January 2013)

FionaM12 said:



			Poo picking?  If those photos from a few years ago are to be believed, he doesn't pick up their dead bodies, never mind their poo. [/


Quite! 

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## piebaldsparkle (14 January 2013)

PeterNatt said:



			In Australia there is legislation to prevent people from having large number of animals  - if they wish to do so they have to apply for a licence and be regularly inspected.
		
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Very wise.


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