# Diarrhea in a very old horse



## littlebranshill (1 March 2017)

My friend has asked me to put a post of here regarding her 15:2hh 34 year old cob.  In the last month he has had bad diarrhea.  He has Cushings but the vet has said that she didn't think it was that.  His food has not changed in years.  He is on 2 bute a day but the vet said that this is a comparatively low dose and he has been on that too for years and doubt whether that would be the cause.  I suppose it is possible that due to his age things are changing within his body but he is very chirpy in himself and has not lost weight and looks great.  Obviously he drinks a lot due to the cushings and now the diarrhea.  She is going to put him on Protexin to see if that would help.  Does anyone have any suggestions what we can try?    She does not want to call the vet out and start on a long line of tests and put him through that - he is so old anyway! Any advice please?


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## AdorableAlice (1 March 2017)

She needs a vet.  Long term bute can cause problems as can a worm burden in old horses, he is a big age for a biggish horse.


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## littlebranshill (1 March 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			She needs a vet.  Long term bute can cause problems as can a worm burden in old horses, he is a big age for a biggish horse.
		
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He has had a worm count done and they were wormed in the last month so it's not that and the vet didn't think it was the bute.


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## AdorableAlice (1 March 2017)

littlebranshill said:



			He has had a worm count done and they were wormed in the last month so it's not that and the vet didn't think it was the bute.
		
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Well, as you said in the opening post, 'he is old anyway' and the owner doesn't want to get him veterinary care, so just let him dehydrate and suffer.  There will be a reason he is scouring and no one on the forum has a crystal ball, he needs to be seen and deserves to have the appropriate care.


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## SusieT (1 March 2017)

She needs to call the vet out. She can express her wishes for not doing tests but she needs to call the vet.


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## Tiddlypom (1 March 2017)

SusieT said:



			She needs to call the vet out. She can express her wishes for not doing tests but she needs to call the vet.
		
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This. 

If the Cushing's is controlled, then he should not be drinking more than usual. He's a very good age, but anything out of the ordinary with these oldies needs immediate attention, even if it's a decision to PTS whilst he's still bright.


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## littlebranshill (1 March 2017)

AdorableAlice said:



			Well, as you said in the opening post, 'he is old anyway' and the owner doesn't want to get him veterinary care, so just let him dehydrate and suffer.  There will be a reason he is scouring and no one on the forum has a crystal ball, he needs to be seen and deserves to have the appropriate care.
		
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Quite honestly this sort of reply is not very helpful.  You presume to judge. He is not dehydrated and he certainly is not suffering. If you read my original post you will see that she has spoken on the telephone to the Vet. If the Vet thought it imperative that they come out to see him then she, of course, would have agreed to this. All I am asking if anyone has any experience or ideas on perhaps trying different feed.


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## joosie (1 March 2017)

I'd try charcoal first.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (1 March 2017)

If he has the squits,  then he is suffering and needs a vet, not bunging up with charcoal or any other remedy.
He is old, he has a pre existing condition. There is something going on that needs investigation by a suitably qualified person,  not subjected to random suggestions by people on the Internet.
Vet needs to visit and not diagnose over the phone.


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## ester (1 March 2017)

At the very least I am surprised the vet has not wanted to come out and run bloods a month of scouring, unusual for the horse is a long time. Hardly a long line/battery of tests and hard to think of any that would be appropriate in this situation that would be considered 'tough' on an oldie. 

When did he have a worm count done and from what sort of sample (counting a scouring horse is gong to cause accuracy issues) and what was he wormed with?


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## Pinkvboots (1 March 2017)

has she tried a gut balancer?  I would be inclined to try one but if there was no change after a week given his age I would want the vet to look at him.


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## Tyssandi (1 March 2017)

littlebranshill said:



			My friend has asked me to put a post of here regarding her 15:2hh 34 year old cob.  In the last month he has had bad diarrhea.  He has Cushings but the vet has said that she didn't think it was that.  His food has not changed in years.  He is on 2 bute a day but the vet said that this is a comparatively low dose and he has been on that too for years and doubt whether that would be the cause.  I suppose it is possible that due to his age things are changing within his body but he is very chirpy in himself and has not lost weight and looks great.  Obviously he drinks a lot due to the cushings and now the diarrhea.  She is going to put him on Protexin to see if that would help.  Does anyone have any suggestions what we can try?    She does not want to call the vet out and start on a long line of tests and put him through that - he is so old anyway! Any advice please?
		
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We lost one here 4 weeks ago, he was on codeine phosphate to make his gut less squity.  He had one pill a day and it really helped. You must get the vet or dehydration will follow for the old boy


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## NOISYGIRL (2 March 2017)

I'd feed a balancer and a gut supplement


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## Doris68 (2 March 2017)

As many have said - get the vet out!  Two sachets of Bute a day is quite a lot.  My old mare had been on one sachet of Danilon for several years and the vet thought that had (probably) caused/contributed to, her leaky hind gut and other gastric problems.  The old boy deserves to be thoroughly checked over.


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## ycbm (2 March 2017)

Get a DIFFERENT vet out. Your has said that it isn't linked to long term use of Bute, but I found this in one minute on a vet website:





			Horses on lower dose rates for longer periods should be monitored carefully.

A horse going off its food or appearing depressed are danger signs.

Owners should watch for loose stools or diarrhoea. There may be ulcers inside the mouth. Unfortunately, by this stage, the horse&#8217;s health may have been seriously compromised.
		
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## littlebranshill (2 March 2017)

ycbm said:



			Get a DIFFERENT vet out. Your has said that it isn't linked to long term use of Bute, but I found this in one minute on a vet website:
		
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Thank you ycbm for some constructive feedback.  I will pass this on.


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## Zuzzie (2 March 2017)

Getting the vet out is one thing but what exactly can they do?  My boy had the squits for weeks. I had the vet out who advised me to try Protexin Gut Balancer.  As long as the horse isn't getting dehydrated or looking/feeling poorly, eating well and behaving normally then I would not worry too much.  My gelding is coming up to 24 years of age and every now and then he gets bouts of the squits.  I have tried everything to help but nothing touches it.  (I even went so far as to get some acidophilus capsules from Holland & Barrett which contain 3 billion probiotics per capsule but that didn't work either).  I think he is just reacting to grass growth, which in the last month has started to come through - so here we go again!  A friend of mine has an aged stallion who has diarrhea.  Vet came out and said it was his age - nothing to worry about.  I have to wash my horse's bum and hind legs 3 times a day to stop the irritation caused by the leakage.  He is eating well and looking good.  One good tip:  get some plaiting bands and section his tail (the hair NOT his actual tail bone) into three parts with the bands - this way it keeps the hair cleaner and easier to manage.  There is nothing worse than a shi**y tail.  Hope this helps.


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## Pearlsasinger (2 March 2017)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			If he has the squits,  then he is suffering and needs a vet, not bunging up with charcoal or any other remedy.
He is old, he has a pre existing condition. There is something going on that needs investigation by a suitably qualified person,  not subjected to random suggestions by people on the Internet.
Vet needs to visit and not diagnose over the phone.
		
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If this were my 23yr old mare who is on Prascend for Cushings, I would want the vet to do another bloodxtest, with a view to possibly increasing the dosage. Excessive water consumption is a symptom of uncontrolled Cushing's, not just a sign that the horse is taking Prascend.
The vet should have suggested another blood test, IMO.


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## ycbm (2 March 2017)

Zuzzie, in a thirty four year old horse, which is really very, very old for anything bigger than a tiny pony, a Vet can give you an objective view of whether the horse should actually be allowed to carry on as his internal organs fail one by one. He's been on two bute a day, a substantial dose, for a long time. His liver isn't likely to be in good shape, according to what vets have posted on this forum before. Really, this is very likely to be the beginning of the end for this horse. Would you want yours to die of progressive organ shutdown?

I am writing this bluntly as the OP is not the one looking after the horse. I wouldn't say it this way of the owner had posted.


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## Zuzzie (2 March 2017)

Pearlsasinger said:



			If this were my 23yr old mare who is on Prascend for Cushings, I would want the vet to do another bloodxtest, with a view to possibly increasing the dosage. Excessive water consumption is a symptom of uncontrolled Cushing's, not just a sign that the horse is taking Prascend.
The vet should have suggested another blood test, IMO.
		
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The horse is 34 not 23 so is extremely old.  I agree a further cushings test would be a good idea to see if the levels have changed.


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## ycbm (2 March 2017)

OP I have done some more research. Diarrhea is a known symptom of liver failure. Liver failure is a known problem of long term use of Bute.  I think the horse should be tested for liver function.


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## Zuzzie (2 March 2017)

ycbm said:



			Zuzzie, in a thirty four year old horse, which is really very, very old for anything bigger than a tiny pony, a Vet can give you an objective view of whether the horse should actually be allowed to carry on as his internal organs fail one by one. He's been on two bute a day, a substantial dose, for a long time. His liver isn't likely to be in good shape, according to what vets have posted on this forum before. Really, this is very likely to be the beginning of the end for this horse. Would you want yours to die of progressive organ shutdown?

I am writing this bluntly as the OP is not the one looking after the horse. I wouldn't say it this way of the owner had posted.
		
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The Op has said that in all other respects the horse is happy and eating well.  If and when things take a turn for worse then it can be dealt with.  It just needs to be monitored for the time being.


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## Zuzzie (2 March 2017)

ycbm said:



			Zuzzie, in a thirty four year old horse, which is really very, very old for anything bigger than a tiny pony, a Vet can give you an objective view of whether the horse should actually be allowed to carry on as his internal organs fail one by one. He's been on two bute a day, a substantial dose, for a long time. His liver isn't likely to be in good shape, according to what vets have posted on this forum before. Really, this is very likely to be the beginning of the end for this horse. Would you want yours to die of progressive organ shutdown?

I am writing this bluntly as the OP is not the one looking after the horse. I wouldn't say it this way of the owner had posted.
		
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I agree, the horse is extremely old but as the Op has said he is looking good and eating well.  Apart from this problem with diarrhea there is nothing to suggest organ failure or such like.  He just needs to be monitored and if things take a turn for the worse it can be dealt with then.  Another cushings test and blood test would be a good idea though just to be on the safe side.


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## ester (2 March 2017)

What can the vets do, run some bloods to start surely to give an indication of what is failing and if anything can be done about. My oldie is happy and eating well but with monitored liver issues. If my horse was being stoic enough to cover a lot up going on underneath then I would want to know so I could understand what to do for the best for him before he deteriorated rather than wait for major signs to occur.
Monitoring without any testing in this sort of instance isn't really monitoring imo, how is saying a month down the line well he is still squitty telling you anything? 
Much as I love Ycbm I'm not sure why she gets special recognition for helpful feedback when others of us have also brought up important questions that might 1) help understand the issue 2) that the owner should be asking a vet about.


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## darli (2 March 2017)

Mine had similar symptoms although ten years younger.  Blood test revealed high liver levels.  He tolerated steroids well and has just been retested.  His demeanour and weight have improved.  He too had loose stools - the vet prescribed codiene for this which was successful.  As he is grazed on a sheep field which can be a bit marshy we will treat for liver fluke as the vet had another similar case this year with another client.


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## Zuzzie (2 March 2017)

ester said:



			What can the vets do, run some bloods to start surely to give an indication of what is failing and if anything can be done about. My oldie is happy and eating well but with monitored liver issues. If my horse was being stoic enough to cover a lot up going on underneath then I would want to know so I could understand what to do for the best for him before he deteriorated rather than wait for major signs to occur.
Monitoring without any testing in this sort of instance isn't really monitoring imo, how is saying a month down the line well he is still squitty telling you anything? 
Much as I love Ycbm I'm not sure why she gets special recognition for helpful feedback when others of us have also brought up important questions that might 1) help understand the issue 2) that the owner should be asking a vet about.
		
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I was  not giving Ycbm special recognition - merely replying to her post which quoted mine!  I have already said blood and cushing tests are a good idea which obviously would entail a vet visit.  Most owners know their horses very well and would, of course, call out a vet if they thought things were going wrong.


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## ycbm (2 March 2017)

Zuzzie said:



			The Op has said that in all other respects the horse is happy and eating well.  If and when things take a turn for worse then it can be dealt with.  It just needs to be monitored for the time being.
		
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Liver failure only becomes obvious when it's too late. By then the horse is sometimes fitting or banging its head on a wall because of the pain. Only a vet can judge whether this horse is fit and well, not an owner who may be desperate not to put down a very, very old horse.


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## ester (2 March 2017)

Zuzzie said:



			I was  not giving Ycbm special recognition - merely replying to her post which quoted mine!  I have already said blood and cushing tests are a good idea which obviously would entail a vet visit.  Most owners know their horses very well and would, of course, call out a vet if they thought things were going wrong.
		
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Not you the OP did! I hope the owner does know the horse well but the fact is that this horse has had symptoms for 4 weeks, is 34, on 2 bute a day which might mask some discomfort and has not seen a vet in that time. That's not really ok is it?



littlebranshill said:



			Thank you ycbm for some constructive feedback.  I will pass this on.
		
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implying nothing else will be passed on and all other feedback was not constructive.


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## ycbm (2 March 2017)

ester said:



			implying nothing else will be passed on and all other feedback was not constructive.
		
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But I's speshul, Ester 

I think the OP was in a hard place with this as the owner's vet was saying nothing needed investigating at this point.   She needed something really solid, like 'your vet is wrong that this isn't connected to use of Bute, look, it says so here'  to go back to the owner with. I think that's all it was.


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## ester (2 March 2017)

I'm always amazed at people's reluctance to say to their vet no I want you to come out when you are paying the bills, I have also always had vets err on the side of coming, the one time they didn't they ought to have . Though granted if I had a vet that reluctant given the circumstances I would be finding someone else too!


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## Tiddlypom (2 March 2017)

*Pipes up again* also to reiterate that it is NOT normal for a horse with controlled Cushing's to drink excessively. Excessive drinking is one indicator of uncontrolled Cushing's. It's not clear whether the horse's ACTH levels have recently been checked, whether he is on prascend or not, etc.


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## Damnation (2 March 2017)

Vet, ASAP.

Loose stools to the point of Diahorrea (sp?) is not good in humans or animals full stop. If it continues untreated, the horse will end up dehydrated.

As others have said, the horse has been on bute for some years, eventually it catches up with their liver. Not only that, the horse has other underlying problems. 

Why has the vet not offered to come out? I wouldn't happy if I rang the vets to say my 34 year old, bute twice daily, cushings horse had the squits and they thought a phonecall was adequate......


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## AdorableAlice (2 March 2017)

littlebranshill said:



			Quite honestly this sort of reply is not very helpful.  You presume to judge. He is not dehydrated and he certainly is not suffering. If you read my original post you will see that she has spoken on the telephone to the Vet. If the Vet thought it imperative that they come out to see him then she, of course, would have agreed to this. All I am asking if anyone has any experience or ideas on perhaps trying different feed.
		
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My comment is valid, helpful and based on decades of experience which includes keeping horses into old age, and crucially the correct advice.


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## Pearlsasinger (2 March 2017)

Zuzzie said:



			The horse is 34 not 23 so is extremely old.  I agree a further cushings test would be a good idea to see if the levels have changed.
		
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My point *was* that my mare isn't very old but even so, I would ask for another blood test. That would be even more important IMO, for an older horse. I can't imagine why the vet hasn't csuggested it and as Ycbm says, I would get a different vet out.


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## Pearlsasinger (2 March 2017)

Zuzzie said:



			The Op has said that in all other respects the horse is happy and eating well.  If and when things take a turn for worse then it can be dealt with.  It just needs to be monitored for the time being.
		
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It has already been monitored for a month! Time now for some action!


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## southerncomfort (3 March 2017)

I don't understand this 'my vet doesn't want to come out at this point' business.

If I'm concerned about one of mine I phone the clinic and book an appointment with the receptionist and the vet comes out!  I never ask to speak to the vet first, I just tell them that I need a vet and how urgent the problem is.  I can't imagine any of the vets refusing to come out.


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