# Opinions on this horse please



## Aleka81 (26 December 2014)

Hi all
Please can I have your opinions on this horse






Thank you in advance


----------



## Tern (26 December 2014)

Something horrifically wrong with it's legs. Big shoulder, very weak neck and back end imo. I stand to be corrected however.


----------



## Aleka81 (26 December 2014)

Interesting. From this pic the only comment my vet made was weak behind...but horse is a baby so I'm ok with that.


----------



## Spring Feather (26 December 2014)

A baby?  Why does it have a hunter clip then?  I also would run a mile from those legs, sorry.


----------



## Tern (26 December 2014)

Aleka81 said:



			Interesting. From this pic the only comment my vet made was weak behind...but horse is a baby so I'm ok with that.
		
Click to expand...

I apologise but if you are looking at buying this horse I would be getting a second vet's opinion. Do you have another photo of this horse? Just wondering if he is standing awkwardly that is making the near front look so bent and the hoof - pastern axis so far back.


----------



## AdorableAlice (26 December 2014)

I am not so sure it is a young horse.  Looks like legs that have done plenty, low heels, turned in off fore, nr fore tendon looks slightly bowed and as the for hinds - maybe the camera is misleading us.

More pictures needed, front and back with tail out of the way.


----------



## Luci07 (26 December 2014)

Horse doesn't look as if it is standing square to the camera as quarters seem to be away from the camera. Big shoulder is hardly an issue and neck is normal for a 4 year old. I would focus more on the lower limbs.


----------



## Red-1 (26 December 2014)

I like him! I don't say he is an example of good conformation, but he reminds me of my first eventer, so I am biased. He also was weak behind, stood a bit bent legged, dished like a good 'un on one leg in particular, and took me from never having evented to going clear round my first Novice and never once faulted XC. 

As he was a bit weak (and terribly noisy in his wind) I then sold him to a lady who had lost her nerve in PN as it was at that time, I thought he would be better staying at that level. He gave her her confidence back, also took her round her first Novice, then Nov 2 day, then Intermediate, then CCI*...

Not bad for a bent legged, dishy, roarer! He then went on to nanny a teen round her first few events and stayed actively SJ until he was 19!

My point? It all depends what you want him for, how much he is and weather you like him. It also depends on what he is doing now, and if he is fit and working, and still sound. 

I do agree he does not look like a show animal!


----------



## Aleka81 (26 December 2014)

B



Red-1 said:



			I like him! I don't say he is an example of good conformation, but he reminds me of my first eventer, so I am biased. He also was weak behind, stood a bit bent legged, dished like a good 'un on one leg in particular, and took me from never having evented to going clear round my first Novice and never once faulted XC. 

As he was a bit weak (and terribly noisy in his wind) I then sold him to a lady who had lost her nerve in PN as it was at that time, I thought he would be better staying at that level. He gave her her confidence back, also took her round her first Novice, then Nov 2 day, then Intermediate, then CCI*...

Not bad for a bent legged, dishy, roarer! He then went on to nanny a teen round her first few events and stayed actively SJ until he was 19!

My point? It all depends what you want him for, how much he is and weather you like him. It also depends on what he is doing now, and if he is fit and working, and still sound. 

I do agree he does not look like a show animal!
		
Click to expand...

She is a 4 year old from Ireland...
Hunting and a bit of show jumping is what I want her for


----------



## Meowy Catkin (26 December 2014)

How old is she? What do you mean by 'baby'?

I think that the photo is deceptive as she doesn't seem to be standing with her weight evenly distributed between her front legs. I would like to see other (better) photos.

The overall impression I get is that she is weak and I don't like her limbs, plus she does seem to have a bowed tendon and under-run heels - just how much work has this 'baby' done?




ETA - OK I've just seen your answer that she's a 4yo. No I wouldn't buy her.


----------



## Aleka81 (26 December 2014)

Does this help


----------



## SpringArising (26 December 2014)

Ignoring his legs, I think he is gorgeous! 

The camped out hinds, his heals and front tendons would put me off though, I think. There's too much wrong. If you want a happy hacker then I'd say go for it, but I really can't see him holding up for hunting for too long.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (26 December 2014)

Have you seen her in the flesh? That is far better than trying to judge from awkward photos as you can not just look, but feel. I am a big fan of actually getting your hands on their legs. 

There have been a few discussions on here recently RE young Irish horses being hunted for the English market. I personally prefer to buy unbacked. If I couldn't do that, then I would go for an older horse that is staying sound doing the level of work that I want.


----------



## Aleka81 (26 December 2014)

Faracat said:



			Have you seen her in the flesh? That is far better than trying to judge from awkward photos as you can not just look, but feel. I am a big fan of actually getting your hands on their legs. 

There have been a few discussions on here recently RE young Irish horses being hunted for the English market. I personally prefer to buy unbacked. If I couldn't do that, then I would go for an older horse that is staying sound doing the level of work that I want.
		
Click to expand...

She's got a small splint which doesn't usually worry me. I don't like unbacked as I haven't done enough of it to be comfortable. This will be the first horse I have had since a child that isn't an ex racehorse. 

She has done a 90 in Ireland clear with one down x country and whipped in a little...

Her attitude is delightful and a real poppet. She's a big girl about 16.3hh


----------



## Wagtail (26 December 2014)

I don't think the hinds are too bad. A little weak, but that would not bother me with her only being a four year old. The neck is well set on. She is a little straight through the shoulder and I really don't like her front legs. Her forearm is short and cannon bones are long. She is over at the knee (though this doesn't bother me too much). She appears to have an inward pointing right front (looks turned in at the knee so a bad fault unless it is the way she is standing).


----------



## Aleka81 (26 December 2014)

Wagtail said:



			I don't think the hinds are too bad. A little weak, but that would not bother me with her only being a four year old. The neck is well set on. She is a little straight through the shoulder and I really don't like her front legs. Her forearm is short and cannon bones are long. She is over at the knee (though this doesn't bother me too much). She appears to have an inward pointing right front (looks turned in at the knee so a bad fault unless it is the way she is standing).
		
Click to expand...

Thank you. This is more what I felt about her... Will have a real look at her knee as this hadn't really jumped out at me when I saw her


----------



## Wagtail (26 December 2014)

Aleka81 said:



			Does this help





Click to expand...

Legs look better in this picture. Does she really need spurs? They are marking her. I wouldn't be using them on a four year old.


----------



## Aleka81 (26 December 2014)

Wagtail said:



			Legs look better in this picture. Does she really need spurs? They are marking her. I wouldn't be using them on a four year old.
		
Click to expand...

I think this was just for the picture as he rarely ever rides her. He came back and was chucked on for the photo. None of the other pics with the girls on have really ridden her in Spurs


----------



## PorkChop (26 December 2014)

I think because she is tied in at the knee it is making her legs look worse than they are, looks a nice type, however her legs would put me off too.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (26 December 2014)

Is the tendon bowed or is it the photo?

I don't like the fact that she looks tied in at the knees. Trainability and temperament do count for a lot, but she's big (which doesn't help - big horses do take longer to mature and they are more likely to have soundness issues IME). Buying horses is always a risk, but you need to weigh up the risks that you are taking. Good conformation should - in theory - give the horse a better chance of long term soundness.


----------



## Sparkles (26 December 2014)

I'd pass though not just from legs alone. It would be a nono having martingales and spurs and already jumped courses and hunted a bit at 4. I know this is fairly common, but having seen the same similar in early teens and having various soundness issues....I'd pass and either get a nice 6-7 year old just doing the same, or a nice 4 year old just doing a bit of everything (popping a jump but no courses/competing, occasional meet attended cubbing and thinking about an hour or two from new year) quietly and simply and correctly being built up and ridden with no extras needed. 

But that's just me and comparing to current 4/5 year old and what we're up to.

Good luck either way


----------



## Fun Times (26 December 2014)

Throwing in a bit of a curve ball here....when I looked at the first pic I thought,  I bet she has a splint.  Fast forward through the thread and sure enough you say she does. The reason I thought this could be the case is that there appears to be a twist to her front right leg. Could just be a trick of the camera of course and you may well tell us the splint is on the other leg. And I do know that splints rarely cause a problem and most horses have them....but when they are a problem, believe me they are a bu&&er. So for me, due to personal experience, if a horse had a splint and I thought it could be exacerbated by poor confirmation such that the horse would be susceptible to re-throwing them on a regular basis, that alone would put me off. And I agree with some of the other concerns noted above, but of course no horse is perfect and even those that are close to being so still go lame.


----------



## Goldenstar (26 December 2014)

I could not live with those front legs .


----------



## Aleka81 (26 December 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			I could not live with those front legs .
		
Click to expand...

Hmm she is supposed to be coming to stay with me for a few days.

Now I don't know what to do....


----------



## PoppyAnderson (26 December 2014)

And that's a terrible case of toe-first landing too. That suggests issues in itself. It can be improved but you'd need to make some pretty quick changes if you wanted to avoid all kinds of lameness issues.


----------



## Bojingles (26 December 2014)

At the risk of revealing my status as a proper eejit, could conformation experts explain what exactly is wrong with the front legs? C'mon folks, it's Christmas; go easy on me


----------



## gunnergundog (26 December 2014)

Aleka81 said:



			Hmm she is supposed to be coming to stay with me for a few days.

Now I don't know what to do....
		
Click to expand...

Cancel the trial.....you will only fall further in love which will make making a logical, unemotional decision even harder - and this is what the vendor is relying upon.  She may have the greatest attitude/temperament in the world but without the conformation to support a sound body that is worth nothing.

As others have said: weak back end and overdeveloped shoulder......you rarely get one without the other as horse will be compensating for not pushing by pulling itself along.  Weak second thigh.  Toe first landing. HORRENDOUS front legs and doesn't appear to be truly connected in the ridden shot.  Also, despite what you say there do appear to be spur marks on the horse's sides.

Wearing a martingale and having cubbed/hunted/jumped courses of jumps would not bother me in the slightest, but no matter how much/how little this horse is on the market for you will be able to find a horse that is more likely to stay sound for hunting than this one.  There are no guarantees when buying but all you can do is stack the odds in your favour, unless of course you have loads of money to throw on vets bills and are prepared for the frustration and heartbreak that goes with owning such a horse.  I had one such horse years ago; it evented to intermediate and could have gone advanced EASILY if anyone had been able to keep it consistantly sound long enough.

Sorry if above sounds harsh......just hate to see people making the same mistakes.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (26 December 2014)

Bojingles said:



			At the risk of revealing my status as a proper eejit, could conformation experts explain what exactly is wrong with the front legs? C'mon folks, it's Christmas; go easy on me 

Click to expand...

If you do a google image search of 'horse leg conformation' lots of charts come up showing both ideal conformation and undesirable conformation. This would be a good starting point for you. 

ETA - I know that these sketches show arabian conformation, but one has points that apply to all riding horses in lower case and the other shows how you should 'divide' the horse into three equal body parts.


----------



## Tern (26 December 2014)

Luci07 said:



			neck is normal for a 4 year old.
		
Click to expand...

Didn't know horse's age, hence why I said it.


----------



## Wagtail (26 December 2014)

Those who say toe first landing - I can't tell from that photograph as the right front has just picked up and is on its way forward. It will land at least another foot in front of where it is now. Plenty time to extend and for the heel to land first. I am not saying the horse is not showing toe first landing, just saying that I cannot tell whether this is the case from the photograph. If you can tell that from the photograph I am looking at, then you are exceptionally clever.


----------



## Red-1 (26 December 2014)

I would say don't have it. The conformation is less than perfect, but it is the fact that you are not sure that clinches it for me. To me I have to NEED the horse before I will take it on, if there is any second thought then rely on your gut feeling.


----------



## Aleka81 (26 December 2014)

Red-1 said:



			I would say don't have it. The conformation is less than perfect, but it is the fact that you are not sure that clinches it for me. To me I have to NEED the horse before I will take it on, if there is any second thought then rely on your gut feeling.
		
Click to expand...

To be honest prior to this I was a 100% sure otherwise I wouldn't be wasting the sellers time with a short trial...


----------



## Aleka81 (26 December 2014)

One more:






I really like her....lol

Oh and no Spurs or spur marks....


----------



## Wagtail (26 December 2014)

From this photo, it does look like toe first landing. There is a darkened area that may suggest spurs. But despite all this negativity, I think having a kind biddable nature is very important. It's my number one requirement in fact. I have known plenty of horses with poor conformation that have stayed sound and performed at a reasonable level. I would, however, want to look into her soundness more thoroughly before making a purchase. Get her vetted and perhaps even foot xrays.


----------



## gunnergundog (26 December 2014)

Aleka81 said:



			Does this help





Click to expand...




Wagtail said:



			Those who say toe first landing - I can't tell from that photograph as the right front has just picked up and is on its way forward. It will land at least another foot in front of where it is now. Plenty time to extend and for the heel to land first. I am not saying the horse is not showing toe first landing, just saying that I cannot tell whether this is the case from the photograph. If you can tell that from the photograph I am looking at, then you are exceptionally clever.
		
Click to expand...

Nah, not exceptionally clever....I wish!....just interpreting the single photo differently to you.  However, it is all we have to go on and am happy to debate.  My interpretation was based on the following: a very crude measurement of the distance between the NH toe and the OH heel.  I then tried to compare with the fronts; the NF is in the stance phase so I tried to extrapolate the distance between the fores forwards to where I guessed the OF would land, based on the measurement between the hinds.  The distance from where the OF toe is in the photo (in the early stages of the strike-off phase, I agree) to where I guess it will land, based on the hind measurement, is IMO not sufficient for it to 'throw the knee' and land heel first.   Just my opinion.


----------



## Shady (26 December 2014)

what bothers me is all the leather clobber on it, can't imagine having to ride either of my horses in all that stuff


----------



## gunnergundog (26 December 2014)

Aleka81 said:



			Does this help





Click to expand...




Wagtail said:



			Those who say toe first landing - I can't tell from that photograph as the right front has just picked up and is on its way forward. It will land at least another foot in front of where it is now. Plenty time to extend and for the heel to land first. I am not saying the horse is not showing toe first landing, just saying that I cannot tell whether this is the case from the photograph. If you can tell that from the photograph I am looking at, then you are exceptionally clever.
		
Click to expand...




Wagtail said:



			From this photo, it does look like toe first landing. There is a darkened area that may suggest spurs. But despite all this negativity, I think having a kind biddable nature is very important. It's my number one requirement in fact. I have known plenty of horses with poor conformation that have stayed sound and performed at a reasonable level. I would, however, want to look into her soundness more thoroughly before making a purchase. Get her vetted and perhaps even foot xrays.
		
Click to expand...

Wagtail....Cross-posted with you!  Took me a couple of attempts to do my last post to check I'd got my NH/OH and NF/OF correct....maybe a glass too many of wine already??!


----------



## Tern (26 December 2014)

Aleka81 said:



			To be honest prior to this I was a 100% sure otherwise I wouldn't be wasting the sellers time with a short trial...
		
Click to expand...

Well, you have your answer then, you have made up your own decision by the looks of it.


----------



## Aleka81 (26 December 2014)

Shady said:



			what bothers me is all the leather clobber on it, can't imagine having to ride either of my horses in all that stuff
		
Click to expand...

Leather work?  I ride all of mine with a breast girth and flash (purely because plain bridles barely exist anymore) a martingale wasn't used when I rode as I asked to ride without it. It's just what they have as standard on their bridles. Horse is at a dealer


----------



## Aleka81 (26 December 2014)

On a totally different tangent...what do you believe her value is?


----------



## gunnergundog (26 December 2014)

What's her breeding?  What were the results at the 90cm comps she participated in and were they affiliated ones..........ie ones that can be validated?  Also, details of her passport issuers?  Finally, who do you normally hunt with...ie what sort of country does she need to cross. You also mention SJing....what level do you wish to compete at?


----------



## gunnergundog (26 December 2014)

Also, as you say, do not worry about leatherwork.....standard issue for any four year old I would want to get on....especially, at a dealer.


----------



## loobylu (26 December 2014)

Shady said:



			what bothers me is all the leather clobber on it, can't imagine having to ride either of my horses in all that stuff
		
Click to expand...

Really? I see a breastplate, a loose enough running martingale and a flash.  It's a 4 yo being ridden by a girl who may not know it inside out. Breastplateis sensible on a ypung undeveloped horse, a running martingale is a perfectly acceptable piece of kit as it doesn't look like a dressage yard, and some people ride young horses in a flash. It's not cutting it's nose off. This doesn't mean it's been ruined and doesn't mean the op won't be having merry old time hunting in a cavasson shortly.
op apart from the front legs,  which are important, horse looks fine.


----------



## Aleka81 (26 December 2014)

gunnergundog said:



			What's her breeding?  What were the results at the 90cm comps she participated in and were they affiliated ones..........ie ones that can be validated?  Also, details of her passport issuers?  Finally, who do you normally hunt with...ie what sort of country does she need to cross. You also mention SJing....what level do you wish to compete at?
		
Click to expand...

Breeding unknown...
Affiliated and validated. Good dressage, 4 faults SJ and clear xc but lots of time penalties 
Not sure on passport
Heythrop country but I'm not silly brave
SJ 3ft maybe 3ft 3
Thank you


----------



## Aleka81 (26 December 2014)

loobylu said:



			Really? I see a breastplate, a loose enough running martingale and a flash.  It's a 4 yo being ridden by a girl who may not know it inside out. Breastplateis sensible on a ypung undeveloped horse, a running martingale is a perfectly acceptable piece of kit as it doesn't look like a dressage yard, and some people ride young horses in a flash. It's not cutting it's nose off. This doesn't mean it's been ruined and doesn't mean the op won't be having merry old time hunting in a cavasson shortly.
op apart from the front legs,  which are important, horse looks fine.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you, was very surprised about the leatherwork comment TBH

She has a clean vetting from October but I need to find out how in depth the vettings are from Ireland...


----------



## Tern (26 December 2014)

Aleka81 said:



			Breeding unknown...
Affiliated and validated. Good dressage, 4 faults SJ and clear xc but lots of time penalties 
Not sure on passport
Heythrop country but I'm not silly brave
SJ 3ft maybe 3ft 3
Thank you
		
Click to expand...

I tend to buy mine cheap but for me, it'd be 2.5k at a stretch.. I'd be paying 2k for her probably.


----------



## gunnergundog (26 December 2014)

aleka81 said:



			thank you, was very surprised about the leatherwork comment tbh

she has a clean vetting from october but i need to find out how in depth the vettings are from ireland...
		
Click to expand...

do not under any circumstance rely on a vetting from ireland that took place three months ago!!!!


----------



## Aleka81 (26 December 2014)

gunnergundog said:



			do not under any circumstance rely on a vetting from ireland that took place three months ago!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Brilliant advice thank you. I did think that it was unlikely to be as much as I would like


----------



## gunnergundog (26 December 2014)

gunnergundog said:



			do not under any circumstance rely on a vetting from ireland that took place three months ago!!!!
		
Click to expand...

Regardless of who and where the vetting took place, and more importantly FOR WHOM, a lot can change in three months.


----------



## Wagtail (26 December 2014)

gunnergundog said:



			Wagtail....Cross-posted with you!  Took me a couple of attempts to do my last post to check I'd got my NH/OH and NF/OF correct....maybe a glass too many of wine already??!  

Click to expand...

Haha - just started on the wine now.  Looks like you are indeed very clever because you predicted toe first landing from the first pic and I could only see it in the second pic.


----------



## Sprig (26 December 2014)

Whether or not you buy this horse I would always say (especially when buying from a dealer) get your own vetting done even if a very recent pass is available for you to see, try to attend the vetting if at all possible, choose the vet yourself and do your best to ensure that the vet does not have connections to the yard/horse. It is sensible to be cautious when a lot of money/time/heartache is on the line.


----------



## TheMule (26 December 2014)

2k for a 4 yr old that's competing at 90 and hunts, presumably sensibly?!
I'd say 4-5k, more if she was better put together


----------



## Aleka81 (26 December 2014)

TheMule said:



			2k for a 4 yr old that's competing at 90 and hunts, presumably sensibly?!
I'd say 4-5k, more if she was better put together
		
Click to expand...

Thank you


----------



## Pearlsasinger (26 December 2014)

She is definitely not my type and I would prefer 4 yr olds not to have done anywhere near as much as she is said to have done but if I were considering buying her and going to have her at my yard for a trial, I would want my farrier to have a look at her and give an opinion on how much her feet/way of going/ leg confo could be improved with good farriery.

If you like her enough to be taking her on trial, OP, why on earth are you asking for opinions on here?

Having said that, I can never understand why people post photos of other people's horses and ask for opinions about them, I prefer to make up my own mind about horses that I view.


----------



## gunnergundog (26 December 2014)

TheMule said:



			2k for a 4 yr old that's competing at 90 and hunts, presumably sensibly?!
I'd say 4-5k, more if she was better put together
		
Click to expand...

For a 4 year old that competes CONSISTANTLY (as opposed to a one-off) at 90 and hunts....SEEN in the field as being sensible and good with hounds etc, then yes, 2K.

4-5K if better put together, yes, BUT she's NOT.  And to be honest, for Heythrop country, I wouldn't pay 2K unless you are just an occasional rail jumper...not being rude, just trying to be realistic as to what she will stand up to.


----------



## Aleka81 (26 December 2014)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			She is definitely not my type and I would prefer 4 yr olds not to have done anywhere near as much as she is said to have done but if I were considering buying her and going to have her at my yard for a trial, I would want my farrier to have a look at her and give an opinion on how much her feet/way of going/ leg confo could be improved with good farriery.

If you like her enough to be taking her on trial, OP, why on earth are you asking for opinions on here?

Having said that, I can never understand why people post photos of other people's horses and ask for opinions about them, I prefer to make up my own mind about horses that I view.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you re the advice of farrier to view

I have edited all people out and was interested in opinions and glad I asked as quite a big thing has been noted that I hadn't seen...
Sometimes this forum is brilliant like the 53 previous posts and then there always has to be one person who makes me wonder why I bother using it at all anymore!


----------



## SusieT (26 December 2014)

Nice above the legs... Front legs look like they won't take hard landings over jumps, back legs are not bad but a bti long in the cannon - can't see it being above a riding club/amateur horse but it does have a nice shoulder.


----------



## Aleka81 (26 December 2014)

SusieT said:



			Nice above the legs... Front legs look like they won't take hard landings over jumps, back legs are not bad but a bti long in the cannon - can't see it being above a riding club/amateur horse but it does have a nice shoulder.
		
Click to expand...

I have no serious aspirations anymore and horses are most definitely just for fun for me. I never intend to BE again so maybe with a vetting and farriers opinion that are ok she might be able to do a job for me. Thank you


----------



## Goldenstar (26 December 2014)

Aleka81 said:



			Thank you, was very surprised about the leatherwork comment TBH

She has a clean vetting from October but I need to find out how in depth the vettings are from Ireland...
		
Click to expand...

Do not depend on a three month old vetting where ever it's been done .
I would never depend on a vetting that where I have not instructed the vet .


----------



## gunnergundog (26 December 2014)

Aleka81 said:



			Thank you re the advice of farrier to view

I have edited all people out and was interested in opinions and glad I asked as quite a big thing has been noted that I hadn't seen...
Sometimes this forum is brilliant like the 53 previous posts and then there always has to be one person who makes me wonder why I bother using it at all anymore!
		
Click to expand...

Oops...sorry, if that was me, wasn't meaning to cause offence.  Comments based on my genuine belief of the pictures and facts you presented.


----------



## Red-1 (26 December 2014)

gunnergundog said:



			Oops...sorry, if that was me, wasn't meaning to cause offence.  Comments based on my genuine belief.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think it was you, yours had 54 previous posts! I think it was cross posted!


----------



## Aleka81 (26 December 2014)

gunnergundog said:



			Oops...sorry, if that was me, wasn't meaning to cause offence.  Comments based on my genuine belief.
		
Click to expand...

Definitely not you! You have been ever so helpful 
Thank you


----------



## Pearlsasinger (26 December 2014)

gunnergundog said:



			Oops...sorry, if that was me, wasn't meaning to cause offence.  Comments based on my genuine belief of the pictures and facts you presented.
		
Click to expand...

TBH, I took it to be aimed at the 2nd part of my post but my opinion stands - if the horse is what you want, and your 'experienced friend' (whom every-one should take to a viewing) approves, there is no point in asking for the opinions of complete strangers, who cannot see the horse in the flesh.


----------



## SpringArising (26 December 2014)

Pearlsacarolsinger said:



			there is no point in asking for the opinions of complete strangers, who cannot see the horse in the flesh.
		
Click to expand...

But sometimes buyers don't have anyone else to take with them, so getting a second opinion from knowledgable people is helpful. 

Aleka81 has got some really good comments from experienced people on here, and some of the faults listed may have been missed by someone else.


----------



## AdorableAlice (26 December 2014)

Aleka81 said:



			Thank you re the advice of farrier to view

I have edited all people out and was interested in opinions and glad I asked as quite a big thing has been noted that I hadn't seen...
Sometimes this forum is brilliant like the 53 previous posts and then there always has to be one person who makes me wonder why I bother using it at all anymore!
		
Click to expand...

Out of interest what is the bigger thing that you hadn't noticed.


----------



## Aleka81 (26 December 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			Out of interest what is the bigger thing that you hadn't noticed.
		
Click to expand...

In the flesh I hadn't spotted how turned at the knee she is. I am hoping maybe the photos make her look worse than she is TBH


----------



## AdorableAlice (26 December 2014)

Aleka81 said:



			In the flesh I hadn't spotted how turned at the knee she is. I am hoping maybe the photos make her look worse than she is TBH
		
Click to expand...

Photographs can be so misleading.  Good luck with whatever you decide and instruct a good equine vet if you proceed.


----------



## Fun Times (26 December 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			Photographs can be so misleading.  Good luck with whatever you decide and instruct a good equine vet if you proceed.
		
Click to expand...

Entirely this. I think it is good that you now have all these extra views OP as it means you can ask your vet all of these questions. I would still proceed with the trial in your position but just be ultra wary. Unless the vet can sufficiently put your mind at rest on all the issues raised above, walk away. Also I would maybe use a different vet to the one whom you originally showed the photo too, as their feedback was a bit lacking in detail in my view. Finally, if you have the technology to video her in trot on a hard surface and play it back in slow motion, do so. That will help you analyse the toe landing first issue. If she is landing toe first, you need a decent farrier's opinion as to how fixable it is.


----------



## PoppyAnderson (27 December 2014)

Fun Times said:



			Finally, if you have the technology to video her in trot on a hard surface and play it back in slow motion, do so. That will help you analyse the toe landing first issue. If she is landing toe first, you need a decent farrier's opinion as to how fixable it is.
		
Click to expand...

Toe first landing is almost always fixable but a farrier isn't the person to talk to about that. In 30 odd years, I've never known a farrier even consider it, including some of the so called best hospital vets in the country.


----------



## Smurf's Gran (27 December 2014)

PoppyAnderson said:



			And that's a terrible case of toe-first landing too. That suggests issues in itself. It can be improved but you'd need to make some pretty quick changes if you wanted to avoid all kinds of lameness issues.
		
Click to expand...

how can you tell from the photo that there is a toe first landing - it looks to me as though the horse is just lifting the off fore and is breaking over - not landing.  Is this what you meant ?


----------



## Moya_999 (27 December 2014)

Sorry but for me -  as per others says sort pasterns long cannons, and I would not buy a 4 years old who has hunted.  Legs can often be shot to pieces, my mare was still going on quiet hacks and light schooling at 4.  A lot of big horses because of their size end up doing to much to soon then then are wornout by 7 or lame.

Looks very week behind I personaly would find something which has done less at this age and would last you  longer.


----------



## Smurf's Gran (27 December 2014)

agree jumping a metre in a competition at 4 years old is too much I think


----------



## Aleka81 (27 December 2014)

Smurf's Gran said:



			agree jumping a metre in a competition at 4 years old is too much I think
		
Click to expand...

It's 90cms to be honest that doesn't worry me BE run 4 yr old classes at that height


----------



## only_me (27 December 2014)

It is also a 4 year old who will very nearly be 5 - nothing wrong with jumping a 1m, you don't know it could have been a couple of times only.

Bit frustrated really to see a lot of people who think that all we do in Ireland is hammer the legs off 3 & 4 year olds by hunting them every weekend, competing them every weekend and starting them poorly. Just to sell to the English market. Not the case for the majority of Irish horses, most horses are well started and ridden accordingly to how they Feel. Some progress faster than others, and these tend to be the sport horses who are highly sought after!

The horse in question doesn't look that bad,  just a weak baby. Yes the the legs don't look perfect but the photos are not always the most reliable. There are quite a few horses at top level eventing that have questionable conformation and no horse is perfect - you just have to know what you want to do and does the conformation look like they will stand up to it?


----------



## Meowy Catkin (27 December 2014)

As I said the subject of hunting young Irish horses for the English market has been discussed a lot recently on this forum. I have not given my thoughts on the matter as I honestly don't know enough about what actually goes on in Ireland to comment. 

I do know that I prefer to buy unbacked - regardless of country of origin - or as I said, buy an older, fully grown horse that is doing the level of work I want already and is staying sound, thus showing that it can cope with that level of work. But that's my opinion and no doubt lots will disagree.


----------



## seejay (27 December 2014)

Up to £2000, super big fun horse prospect if allowed time to grow on.

£2500 probably a good buy who will give a lot of fun and may mature into a superstar.

£3000. Worth taking on trial and if you like her then worth the money.

£4000 plus  keep looking if you want something serious for this coming season.

Some strange comments people have made from two photos on this thread of a horse not even stood up square on a flat piece of ground!


----------



## Sukistokes2 (27 December 2014)

PoppyAnderson said:



			Toe first landing is almost always fixable but a farrier isn't the person to talk to about that. In 30 odd years, I've never known a farrier even consider it, including some of the so called best hospital vets in the country.
		
Click to expand...

Really! 

You have been using the wrong farriers!!!!! 
Or maybe I have been lucky with my farrier! ;?


----------



## Shady (27 December 2014)

i apologise if my comment regarding his tack offended you, dealers and auctioneers have been using flash nosebands for years to disguise contact issues .


----------



## Stormynight (27 December 2014)

Just to go against the grain a little... 
a) photos can be misleading. 
b) very trivial things can make a horse appear "off" in a photo.

In my guy's case, it was more a poor shoeing job than actual issue with his legs. Only you can decide whether you think she's worth the risk (my boy's temperament swung it for me). Best of luck whatever you decide.


----------



## Moya_999 (27 December 2014)

only_me said:



			It is also a 4 year old who will very nearly be 5 - nothing wrong with jumping a 1m, you don't know it could have been a couple of times only.

Bit frustrated really to see a lot of people who think that all we do in Ireland is hammer the legs off 3 & 4 year olds by hunting them every weekend, competing them every weekend and starting them poorly. Just to sell to the English market. Not the case for the majority of Irish horses, most horses are well started and ridden accordingly to how they Feel. Some progress faster than others, and these tend to be the sport horses who are highly sought after!

The horse in question doesn't look that bad,  just a weak baby. Yes the the legs don't look perfect but the photos are not always the most reliable. There are quite a few horses at top level eventing that have questionable conformation and no horse is perfect - you just have to know what you want to do and does the conformation look like they will stand up to it?
		
Click to expand...


Nothing wrong??  I have to dissagree with that since I have seen many young horses put into too much work or being asked to do too much to soon - what is wrong with letting them mature slowly - what is the rush to make them grow up too soon.    

 It maybe nearly 5 but large horses knees do not knit or fuse totally till 6 .  I knew a lovely coloured gelding owner jumping 5ft jumping classes at 4 - 5.   Where is he now???  at the age of 7 his hocks knacked could no longer jump and sold on for what ever price she could get.




			would NEVER jump a horse above 18" before they are 4, at this age they are still growing, and the bone in their knees has not fully closed. This causes them th have weaker knees than an older horse, which causes them to be more susceptable to injuries in their legs and back. Before passing 18", a horse should have its knees x-rayed by the vet to make sure that their knees are closed
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Cortez (27 December 2014)

I get that you're all concerned about not doing too much with young horses, but really - if you wait until everything's mature/closed/calcified/etc. they'd never have enough time to learn, get fit or experienced. How about all the kids out there doing sports; their joints are just as immature and yet we know that physical exercise is GOOD for our children. The same thing has actually been proven in horses (there are links to the scientific papers on here somewhere); 3 year olds doing light work have FEWER injuries, better bone density and improved long term soundness when compared to horses "left to mature".

The key is to be sensible enough to gauge the level of work.


----------



## Smurf's Gran (27 December 2014)

Moya_999 said:



			Nothing wrong??  I have to dissagree with that since I have seen many young horses put into too much work or being asked to do too much to soon - what is wrong with letting them mature slowly - what is the rush to make them grow up too soon.    

 It maybe nearly 5 but large horses knees do not knit or fuse totally till 6 .  I knew a lovely coloured gelding owner jumping 5ft jumping classes at 4 - 5.   Where is he now???  at the age of 7 his hocks knacked could no longer jump and sold on for what ever price she could get.
		
Click to expand...

Agree with this - there is some really good stuff on Deb Bennett's website (PHD Equine Specialist) about growth plates etc.  You wont ever make a mistake from taking things too slow, unlike taking things too fast - the horse in question looks typically like a late maturing horse too.

Cortex I get what you are saying, but kids doing sports are not carrying a rider, and for the ones who are doing repetitive movements they often experience problems and damage that lasts into adulthood - obviously some are okay, but not all - the type of exercise a young horse is doing is key really - and also looking a the horse you have - the horse in question looks very immature to me


----------



## Goldenstar (27 December 2014)

I agree with you Cortez all the recent research suggests that work at younger ages is necessary for horses to reach full athletic potential.
But you are spot on it has to be the right type of work that increases the horses elasticity , it's muscle mass and bone and develops balance and perception .
One of our modern issues is that many young horses are doing too much or too little or veering between the two and doing nothing then too much .
Just because I would not touch with a barge pole a horse that has hunted at three does not mean I won't work with three year olds in the school and gently hack them.
Just because I would be very cautious of buying a four year old that had hunted a full season does mean I won't take my own autumn hunting .
PS this is no comment on the horse OP is posting about just a general observation .


----------



## only_me (27 December 2014)

Moya_999 said:



			Nothing wrong??  I have to dissagree with that since I have seen many young horses put into too much work or being asked to do too much to soon - what is wrong with letting them mature slowly - what is the rush to make them grow up too soon.    

 It maybe nearly 5 but large horses knees do not knit or fuse totally till 6 .  I knew a lovely coloured gelding owner jumping 5ft jumping classes at 4 - 5.   Where is he now???  at the age of 7 his hocks knacked could no longer jump and sold on for what ever price she could get.
		
Click to expand...

A horse jumping a couple of sj rounds at 1m is hardly going to do much damage especially if the horse has natural talent. If you read my post i actually said it depends on how much jumping the horse has done! The horse in question could have jumped a little, or a lot, we don't know.

Plus, you may have seen a lot of young horses worked too hard too soon, and then are knackered at a young age, but I've seen a lot of horses who started work young and continued to work well into their teens.

I don't think there is anything wrong with working a 4 year old lightly (which could be the case with this horse, and would explain the weak back end) and taking it jumping a couple of times to give it experience. Plus some horses need to progess faster as their minds are quick; if you give them too much time then they wil start to play up or get bored.


----------



## Agatha (27 December 2014)

Could just be the photo but I echo the concerns over her legs and weak looking back end - I'd be worried myself and would probably steer clear.


----------



## Nudibranch (27 December 2014)

Whilst conformation is important, bear in mind it isn't a guarantee. I have a rising 4 yo with almost perfect confo, indeed his legs are textbook but he is currently under investigation for stifle issues, being lame on flexion and he hasn't even been backed yet.


----------



## PoppyAnderson (27 December 2014)

Sukistokes2 said:



			Really! 

You have been using the wrong farriers!!!!! 
Or maybe I have been lucky with my farrier! ;?
		
Click to expand...

I previously used some of the best out there. Wouldn't touch a farrier with a barge pole these days.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (27 December 2014)

Moya_999 said:



			It maybe nearly 5 but large horses knees do not knit or fuse totally till 6 .
		
Click to expand...

No, the growth plates of the 'knees' (it's really the equivalent of our wrist) actually are converted to bone at around 18 months - 2 years. It's the SPINE that you really need to worry about as the final vertebrae (in the neck - so no rollkur) to have their growth plates converted to bone occurs when the horse is over 6 yo.

People often misquote/misunderstand the research about early exercise and bone changes as a result. You can read Dr Bennetts thoughts in this oft quoted, but probably hardly ever properly read article (starts at the bottom of page 2) and if you go to page 6 you can read about skeletal maturity.

http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf


----------



## SpringArising (27 December 2014)

only_me said:



			Plus some horses need to progess faster as their minds are quick; if you give them too much time then they wil start to play up or get bored.
		
Click to expand...

There're plenty of ways to occupy a horse's mind without hard work - you don't even have to be on their back to make them use their brain!


----------



## Ditchjumper2 (27 December 2014)

If YOU like the horse, then have her on trial.  Get your vet to have a look while you have her and see what they think. if you like her and your vet passes it and you can afford her and want her then have her. Your life, your horse, your money.

If she goes wrong, well somethimes they do whatever!!


----------



## Moya_999 (27 December 2014)

only_me said:



			A horse jumping a couple of sj rounds at 1m is hardly going to do much damage especially if the horse has natural talent. If you read my post i actually said it depends on how much jumping the horse has done! The horse in question could have jumped a little, or a lot, we don't know.

Plus, you may have seen a lot of young horses worked too hard too soon, and then are knackered at a young age, but I've seen a lot of horses who started work young and continued to work well into their teens.

I don't think there is anything wrong with working a 4 year old lightly (which could be the case with this horse, and would explain the weak back end) and taking it jumping a couple of times to give it experience. Plus some horses need to progess faster as their minds are quick; if you give them too much time then they wil start to play up or get bored.
		
Click to expand...


 I see what you're saying but it appears this horse has hunted (has a hunter clip too).  Not just brought on slowly......

 As for saying horses have to be started early to reach their full potenticial  does not mean they won't if they are started later.  If Horses  can be retrained at 10-11 to a completely new activity and do really well in competition then the argument about you have to start early to achieve does not stand up.   I mean look at race horses brought into normal training after being on the track they learn don't they some do really well and only just started out in *normal* day riding later in years

  One livery here had her gelding at 4 1/2 took him really slowly  advised that the Irish Draught knees were not ready for anything fast or hard till 6.  Once 6 brought him on slowly and sensibly and competed really high up in jumping competitions till age 11.  Now 12 and with owner with back injury the horse no longer jumps and started western last year so had to learn a completely new equine trait and now competes and doing really well.

 I remember a saying in a movie  called casey's Shadow  when he went in a match race and went lame.  Vet said " if you keep them till 6 you have a longer carrer use them at two and all you get is a full meat wagon*  or words along that line.


----------



## Moya_999 (27 December 2014)

Faracat said:



			No, the growth plates of the 'knees' (it's really the equivalent of our wrist) actually are converted to bone at around 18 months - 2 years. It's the SPINE that you really need to worry about as the final vertebrae (in the neck - so no rollkur) to have their growth plates converted to bone occurs when the horse is over 6 yo.

People often misquote/misunderstand the research about early exercise and bone changes as a result. You can read Dr Bennetts thoughts in this oft quoted, but probably hardly ever properly read article (starts at the bottom of page 2) and if you go to page 6 you can read about skeletal maturity.

http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf

Click to expand...


Thanx for the offer but no thanx Well we will have to agree to disagree with this.


We saw in dissection the stated of a horses joints when it had been abused to0 young.  (career in eventing) I think it's a bad idea to bring a horse on too soon with its growing joints as the horse more often than not does not reach its final height till 6 therefore its body is not ready for the hardness of hunting at the age of 4.

  So with vets advice to the contrary of your statement I will still bring any horse I have and advice others to go slow.  

Why are humans such in a hurry to grow up (you see kids all the time wanting to grow up quick) and their animals too.

 Horses like humans are only young once and for such a short time,  why do some want them to grow up so quick just to satisfy the humans needs or lifestyle.  Enjoy them while their young IMO


----------



## Smurf's Gran (27 December 2014)

TAKEN DIRECTLY FRPOM DTR DEB  BENNETTS WEBSITE

To clarify, this is the order and the approximate age at which the growth plates close up:

1. Birth: distal phalanx (coffin bone)

2. Birth and six months: middle phalanx

3. Between six months and 1 year: proximal phalanx

4. Between 8 months and 1½ years: metacarpals/metatarsals (cannon bones)

5. Between 1½ and 2½ years: carpal bones

6. Between 2 and 2½ years: radius-ulna

7. Between 2½ and 3 years: ulna/femur, section that carries weight above the radius; tibia

8. Between 3 and 3½ years: humerus; bottom part of the femur

9. Between 3 and 4 years: pelvis begins to close, beginning with the extremities of the ischium, ilium and sacrum

10. Between 3½ and 4 years: lower part (that carries weight) of the scapula (shoulderblade)&#8232;&#8232;; top neck vertebrae

12. From 4 years: tarsal bones then the growth plates between fibula and tibia (not without reason that 18th century literature forbade ploughing, crossing of deep mud and jumping for young horses)

13. Between 5½ and 8 years: vertebrae (the larger the horse and the longer the neck, the longer it takes for the growth plates to close up. For stallions, add another six months: this means a &#8220;warmblood&#8221; horse of about 17hh will not be fully grown until 8 years old.)

Of course, all this does not mean that we cannot do anything with our horses until they are eight, but it should certainly set us thinking about our training schemes.


----------



## Moya_999 (27 December 2014)

Smurf's Gran said:



			TAKEN DIRECTLY FRPOM DTR DEB  BENNETTS WEBSITE

To clarify, this is the order and the approximate age at which the growth plates close up:

1. Birth: distal phalanx (coffin bone)

2. Birth and six months: middle phalanx

3. Between six months and 1 year: proximal phalanx

4. Between 8 months and 1½ years: metacarpals/metatarsals (cannon bones)

5. Between 1½ and 2½ years: carpal bones

6. Between 2 and 2½ years: radius-ulna

7. Between 2½ and 3 years: ulna/femur, section that carries weight above the radius; tibia

8. Between 3 and 3½ years: humerus; bottom part of the femur

9. Between 3 and 4 years: pelvis begins to close, beginning with the extremities of the ischium, ilium and sacrum

10. Between 3½ and 4 years: lower part (that carries weight) of the scapula (shoulderblade)&#8232;&#8232;; top neck vertebrae

12. From 4 years: tarsal bones then the growth plates between fibula and tibia (not without reason that 18th century literature forbade ploughing, crossing of deep mud and jumping for young horses)

13. Between 5½ and 8 years: vertebrae (the larger the horse and the longer the neck, the longer it takes for the growth plates to close up. For stallions, add another six months: this means a &#8220;warmblood&#8221; horse of about 17hh will not be fully grown until 8 years old.)

Of course, all this does not mean that we cannot do anything with our horses until they are eight, but it should certainly set us thinking about our training schemes.
		
Click to expand...

Thanx for that  which is exactly what I was advised or told when I brought my big  ID that their bones closed late and mot doing anything hard and fast till 6.


----------



## only_me (27 December 2014)

When I bought mine he had a full clip - not because he was in heavy work but because he looked Better and was for sale. And he had also never hunted before ( I know because I took him to a hunt ride shortly after buying and was out for an hour - Irish hunting is a lot different to English hunting). So just because OP's horse has a hunter clip does not mean it will have been in heavy work! 

I also did not say you need to start young so that they can reach their full potential - I said start as a 4 year old & bring them out and let them experience different atmosphere/places etc. 

And just to say, not all horses grow till 6 - mine hasn't grown a cm in height since he was 4 he has only filled out, as you would expect a young horse to do. Joints can be damaged in an unbroken 3 year old, and degenerative change is normal in older horses. Look at humans - we will all end up with degenerative changes (arthritis) no matter what we do when young.


----------



## Smurf's Gran (27 December 2014)

Moya_999 said:



			Thanx for that  which is exactly what I was advised or told when I brought my big  ID that their bones closed late and mot doing anything hard and fast till 6.
		
Click to expand...

No problem..    people are too keen to get going with young horses.  Just because a young horse can do something doesn't always mean it should, and if a young horse is being produced to sell on then the damage is often invisible.


----------



## Smurf's Gran (27 December 2014)

only_me said:



			When I bought mine he had a full clip - not because he was in heavy work but because he looked Better and was for sale. And he had also never hunted before ( I know because I took him to a hunt ride shortly after buying and was out for an hour - Irish hunting is a lot different to English hunting). So just because OP's horse has a hunter clip does not mean it will have been in heavy work! 

I also did not say you need to start young so that they can reach their full potential - I said start as a 4 year old & bring them out and let them experience different atmosphere/places etc. 

And just to say, not all horses grow till 6 - mine hasn't grown a cm in height since he was 4 he has only filled out, as you would expect a young horse to do. Joints can be damaged in an unbroken 3 year old, and degenerative change is normal in older horses. Look at humans - we will all end up with degenerative changes (arthritis) no matter what we do when young.
		
Click to expand...

We may well all have degenerative changes - horses too, but start horses too young, and do inappropriate work and they definitely will have.  I am in agreement with Dtr Deb, she is the expert after all  - and being over cautious wont harm, but moving on too quickly will have a higher chance of causing some damage.


----------



## meesha (27 December 2014)

If hunting regularly conformation faults would worry me.  Mine has bone cyst in stifle, only confirmation fault is slightly straight behind according to vet but do wonder if this is why he has the issue.  Most importantly I don't think the bone cyst would have caused any problems had I been lightly hacking, reared its ugly head after some fun rides where we jumped a lot followed by hunting then was fine through summer (trottted up sound after injections into stifle throughout summer) and became worse after hunting again! 

Lots of horses out there


----------



## Moya_999 (27 December 2014)

meesha said:



			If hunting regularly conformation faults would worry me.  Mine has bone cyst in stifle, only confirmation fault is slightly straight behind according to vet but do wonder if this is why he has the issue.  Most importantly I don't think the bone cyst would have caused any problems had I been lightly hacking, reared its ugly head after some fun rides where we jumped a lot followed by hunting then was fine through summer (trottted up sound after injections into stifle throughout summer) and became worse after hunting again! 

Lots of horses out there
		
Click to expand...


Me too - as  with a high milage hard driven car it's going to have wear and tear just like a horse IMO, just becasue you cannot seen the problem does not mean it is not there, when spending your hard earnt cash one has to be careful what you spend it on.  As Smurf said its the damage that has been done hunting so young would worry me.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (27 December 2014)

Moya_999 said:



			Thanx for the offer but no thanx Well we will have to agree to disagree with this.


We saw in dissection the stated of a horses joints when it had been abused to0 young.  (career in eventing) I think it's a bad idea to bring a horse on too soon with its growing joints as the horse more often than not does not reach its final height till 6 therefore its body is not ready for the hardness of hunting at the age of 4.

  So with vets advice to the contrary of your statement I will still bring any horse I have and advice others to go slow.  

Why are humans such in a hurry to grow up (you see kids all the time wanting to grow up quick) and their animals too.

 Horses like humans are only young once and for such a short time,  why do some want them to grow up so quick just to satisfy the humans needs or lifestyle.  Enjoy them while their young IMO
		
Click to expand...

You have completely misunderstood my post.  Where did I say that starting horses young was a good thing? I merely corrected your misinformation RE 'knees' and their growth plates. I don't understand what the 'offer' was that you refer to? Was it to not read Dr Bennetts article? You seemed to like what she has to say when SG quoted her? What's wrong with me referencing her?

I have an unbacked 4 yo - I don't rush my horses, but it's not because I worry about their 'knees'. 

Anyway I'll take the risk and quote the good Dr Bennett again 'if you are one of those who equates 'starting' with 'riding' , then I guess you'd better not start your horse until he's four.'

See, you really should have read the article!


----------



## Luci07 (27 December 2014)

It was me who has been instigating the debate about hunting at 4. Technically my (now 7 year old ISH) is a warmblood as he is TB x ID and he is still changing shape. My personal choice would be to not look at any young horse that has been hunted at 4 in Ireland, unless it was through someone I knew who could testify it was a light introduction. I have seen too many horses broken at 6 and that was a common thread. And if it's done for the English market that's a real shame. If your mare is 16.3 at 4, she may well end up well over the 17 hand mark so do bear that in mind as well. My 16.3 4 year old sprouted and ended at 17.2 (and sold) and my 16.1 4 year old is just under 17 hands now.


----------



## Arizahn (27 December 2014)

I'm not keen on her at all. Wouldn't be prepared to pay even half that much either, sorry.


----------



## Dusty85 (27 December 2014)

I recently saw an ad for as ISH that had 'been hunted' complete with pics of him out hunting as a 3 year old.... safe to say I didn't pursue any further! 

I don't see anything wrong with introducing a few cubbing outings to a four year old, but it would have to be the right four year old, and it would have to be lightly. 

Im currently interested in a 17hh 5 rising 6 year old who was broken this summer and now being ridden away and that suits me just fine!


----------



## Moya_999 (27 December 2014)

Faracat said:



			You have completely misunderstood my post.  Where did I say that starting horses young was a good thing? I merely corrected your misinformation RE 'knees' and their growth plates. I don't understand what the 'offer' was that you refer to? Was it to not read Dr Bennetts article? You seemed to like what she has to say when SG quoted her? What's wrong with me referencing her?

I have an unbacked 4 yo - I don't rush my horses, but it's not because I worry about their 'knees'. 

Anyway I'll take the risk and quote the good Dr Bennett again 'if you are one of those who equates 'starting' with 'riding' , then I guess you'd better not start your horse until he's four.'

See, you really should have read the article! 

Click to expand...


God how patronising is that.

I do plenty of ground work before mounting thank you.

I am well aware of when to train a young horse thank you,  and how to go about the training as I am old enough and trained enough horses.   Sorry I do not need   to read that nor want too.  Your entitled to your opinions and I am entitled to mine, fact is  OP ask our advice on this horse and we gave it and our opinion on doing to much to soon and our beliefs on the bones.  No wonder so many cross over to somewhere where you don't get your views questioned.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (27 December 2014)

I really did not mean to upset you - I don't understand how I have when we really agree very much on this issue. No I don't think that Dr Deb Bennett is the only authority on this subject. I don't understand why you agree with her research when SG quotes it, but disagree when i quote it.


----------



## MrsMozart (27 December 2014)

Be careful if that leg does indeed have a twist to it.

I bought a lovely five year old ISH from the sales. Nearly a year later the advanced navicular proved too much. If a good farrier had go to him young enough the the twist in his foreleg could have been fixed, but maybe at six weeks and certainly not at nearly six years.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (27 December 2014)

Moya_999 said:



			God how patronising is that.

I do plenty of ground work before mounting thank you.

I am well aware of when to train a young horse thank you,  and how to go about the training as I am old enough and trained enough horses.   Sorry I do not need   to read that nor want too.  Your entitled to your opinions and I am entitled to mine, fact is  OP ask our advice on this horse and we gave it and our opinion on doing to much to soon and our beliefs on the bones.  No wonder so many cross over to somewhere where you don't get your views questioned.
		
Click to expand...

Ok, I've just seen your edit - you've got completely the wrong end of the stick again.

I wasn't criticizing you or how you back your horses (I've never seen how you do things, so how can I possibly have an opinion on it), I put that quote in to show that she AGREES with you and that it would be worth your time reading the article as her work supports your viewpoint.

Seriously I don't know what I've done wrong to make you so cross/upset and I'm very sorry as it was not intended in any way, shape or form.


----------



## Moya_999 (27 December 2014)

Faracat said:



			I really did not mean to upset you - I don't understand how I have when we really agree very much on this issue. No I don't think that Dr Deb Bennett is the only authority on this subject. I don't understand why you agree with her research when SG quotes it, but disagree when i quote it.
		
Click to expand...

That is because in my haste I quoted the wrong post~> this is the post  I was suppose to quote and agree on shoot me down now.




			Cortex I get what you are saying, but kids doing sports are not carrying a rider, and for the ones who are doing repetitive movements they often experience problems and damage that lasts into adulthood - obviously some are okay, but not all - the type of exercise a young horse is doing is key really - and also looking a the horse you have - the horse in question looks very immature to me
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Meowy Catkin (27 December 2014)

Moya_999 said:



			That is because in my haste I quote the wrong post~> this is the post  I was suppose to quote and agree on shoot me down now.
		
Click to expand...

Phew - I was worried that I'd really upset you somehow.


----------



## Fun Times (27 December 2014)

I fear we have scared the OP away...


----------



## cornbrodolly (27 December 2014)

OP originally asked for conformation advice- but doesnt seem to like the answers! I totally agree that the legs are very poor, and horse has probaly done far too much work already - which will be detremental to horse s long term future. A certain amount of exercise is beneficial - but not jumping. Arthritis will set in , or tendons will go, well, just read books on lameness for a long list of possibilities!
 What hasnt been mentioned is horse s  terrible sickle hocks!Coupled with a weak back end and poor front legs [ tied behind knee, etc etc] I cant see this horse standing up to work for long at all.Posters seem to dislike conformation critisism - but its an objective thing to look for weaknesses - not personal!


----------



## meesha (27 December 2014)

Must be hard, imagine falling in love with a horse only to hear all of our warnings of doom!


----------



## brighteyes (28 December 2014)

Unless you know who has started her, and how much she has done I'd be very wary. They are largely cash liabilities and the longer they are left to mature, the less profit. Either vet thoroughly or find another.  First pic does her no favours at all. Does my head in, people rushing youngsters. I think TB's are an exception to the rule and their bones are strengthened by early work - or so was the thinking a few years back at the vet talk I attended. Not so the Irish types, I'd imagine.


----------



## Spring Feather (28 December 2014)

Moya_999 said:



			God how patronising is that.
		
Click to expand...

Are you reading the same thread as everyone else?  Faracat has been agreeing with you the whole way through this thread and you appear to not be understanding that ... _now where is the confused emoticon!_


----------



## Cortez (28 December 2014)

brightinsel said:



			Unless you know who has started her, and how much she has done I'd be very wary. They are largely cash liabilities and the longer they are left to mature, the less profit. Either vet thoroughly or find another.  First pic does her no favours at all. Does my head in, people rushing youngsters. I think TB's are an exception to the rule and their bones are strengthened by early work - or so was the thinking a few years back at the vet talk I attended. Not so the Irish types, I'd imagine.
		
Click to expand...

TB's are no different to other horses in the way their bones are constructed, nor in their maturity, and there is enormous wastage from training. Most Irish horses have a large dose of TB in their make up. ALL horses respond to exercise.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (28 December 2014)

Faracat said:



			Phew - I was worried that I'd really upset you somehow.

Click to expand...

OK, I've reread this thread and it seems that I was wrong posting the above and that you don't like SG's post about Dr Bennetts research either. Can you provide alternative data that disputes her research in the skeletal maturing rates of horses?



Spring Feather said:



			Are you reading the same thread as everyone else?  Faracat has been agreeing with you the whole way through this thread and you appear to not be understanding that ... _now where is the confused emoticon!_

Click to expand...

I'm so glad that you can see that I'm not going mad SF. Honestly I was utterly bewildered reading M999's posts yesterday and I'm still completely confused over the whole thing today. Too much brandy maybe?


----------



## seejay (28 December 2014)

cornbrodolly said:



			OP originally asked for conformation advice- but doesnt seem to like the answers!
		
Click to expand...

??????


----------



## Bedlam (28 December 2014)

I'd love to see photos of all the horses that people on this thread own just to see all the perfect specimens that they wisely invested in and how successful they all have become.....just out of interest.

I've bought some really badly put together ponies in the past who have been very good for purpose and some well put together ones that haven't. 

My gut feeling on horses has usually ended up being correct - but by no means always - and I have been swayed by a vetting passed to buy something I had niggly doubts about that eventually proved me right and cost me a lot of money. I have been lucky enough to follow my gut instinct on a couple who have been amazing. 

So - my advice is to trust your gut and to listen to any niggles that make you doubt yourself. It's less of a science and more of an art in my experience.


----------



## ester (28 December 2014)

TBF posters on here do only have a photo to go on though, not the horse in the flesh and they were asked for an opinion. 

Mine is pretty good apart from being straight behind - he is welsh  and has stood up to quite a lot of work until now apart from a foot related lameness 3 years ago. He is now 21. 

Mum's mare is pretty shocking body wise  though her legs aren't actually too bad compared to the rest of her :eek3:. She has had no issues for the previous 10 years but now at 15 does have a suspensory injury, probably not related to her confo though really. 

I think it must depend on whether you are buying something of which there are a few about (which I would think would be the case here) or something which is worth the risk for other reasons due to it's experience/overwhelming talent etc.


----------



## googol (28 December 2014)

cornbrodolly said:



			OP originally asked for conformation advice- but doesnt seem to like the answers! I totally agree that the legs are very poor, and horse has probaly done far too much work already - which will be detremental to horse s long term future. A certain amount of exercise is beneficial - but not jumping. Arthritis will set in , or tendons will go, well, just read books on lameness for a long list of possibilities!
 What hasnt been mentioned is horse s  terrible sickle hocks!Coupled with a weak back end and poor front legs [ tied behind knee, etc etc] I cant see this horse standing up to work for long at all.Posters seem to dislike conformation critisism - but its an objective thing to look for weaknesses - not personal!
		
Click to expand...

Don't see where you think OP hasn't liked the responses. I think she was grateful for the opinions
A few other people have got the wrong end of the stick with each other but OP hasn't posted in a while

FWIW I think the thread has been useful however I agree that it's very difficult to properly judge the horse from a few pics but it has obviously given OP some valid points to consider

I agree with onlyme that it's frustrating that everyone thinks horses are hammered into the ground in Ireland. This is completely not true - irelandis a big place so if a few people have had this experience it is not representative of the whole country!!


----------



## Fun Times (28 December 2014)

Bedlam said:



			I'd love to see photos of all the horses that people on this thread own just to see all the perfect specimens that they wisely invested in and how successful they all have become.....just out of interest.
		
Click to expand...

My horse is currently six weeks into a lay-off due to a splint which isnt being helped by poor hoof proportion and shape. Which is exactly why I advised OP to be conscious of the splint and to analyse whether the conformation is likely to exacerbate it. I never said my horse was perfect...quite the opposite, I was attempting to pass on some of the experience I have had with less than perfect conformation. To be honest, I would be pretty miffed if I asked fpr opinions and everyone just responded to say they had no views as their horses are all perfect!


----------



## Arizahn (28 December 2014)

Bedlam said:



			I'd love to see photos of all the horses that people on this thread own just to see all the perfect specimens that they wisely invested in and how successful they all have become.....just out of interest.
		
Click to expand...

I don't generally bother posting pictures of mine any more since despite hundreds of views there are rarely many replies. Plus I don't want to derail the thread. And have no photos where mine are standing up square/aren't caked in mud. So no photos from me. However, IMO perfect doesn't exist, and if it did, it would be boring  

The OP asked for our opinions, we gave them. Mine is that (based on the photos) I don't personally like the horse in question and wouldn't be prepared to pay £2k plus for her.


----------



## Spring Feather (28 December 2014)

Bedlam said:



			I'd love to see photos of all the horses that people on this thread own just to see all the perfect specimens that they wisely invested in and how successful they all have become.....just out of interest.
		
Click to expand...

No horse is perfectly put together (except for Buckpasser perhaps!) so we have to make decisions based on what conformation faults are acceptable to us.  A number of my horses are broodmares, ex-competition horses, and all of them have been inspected and graded by top WB registry inspectors, so they have been assessed as good specimens independently of what I think (I think they're pretty darned nice however, which is why I bought them).  

OP has to make a decision on what is acceptable to her.  I'm a leg person so I couldn't buy a horse with twisted legs but if OP doesn't have the same standards as me then that's okay, it's her risk not mine.  I think people are only trying to give their opinions on this horse to try to protect OP from making a potentially expensive decision.  I certainly don't have any other vested interest in what horse anyone on here buys and I wish her well if she does go ahead with this purchase


----------



## cundlegreen (28 December 2014)

I've been watching this thread with interest, so now I'll add my two pennies worth! I've now got two 4 year olds, both bought from ireland as unbroken projects. I know their history, the bay was purchased from the breeder and had been in a field all her life, and the brown had just started the breaking process when I bought him. He is very backward, and poor, although the photo flatters him, and at 17 hands, will be given plenty of time before I break him in. They are very different physically from the OP's horse, yet both have plenty of blood (the bay is actually 3/4 tb despite looking like a tank!). They both to my way of thinking, despite not having done any work at all, have more muscle and correct frame than the horse shown to us in the photo. Possibly a good comparison to make between different 4 year olds?
http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/cundlegreen/DSC_16501280x856_zps55f86e66.jpg








By the way, can somebody PLEASE show me how to get the photos across "readymade" instead of encoded??


----------



## SpringArising (28 December 2014)

cundlegreen said:



			By the way, can somebody PLEASE show me how to get the photos across "readymade" instead of encoded??
		
Click to expand...

Right-click the image in Photobucket and select 'Copy Image URL'.

Paste the link in the text box, and at the start write 
	
	
		
		
	


	




.


----------



## Tiddlypom (28 December 2014)

cornbrodolly said:



			What hasnt been mentioned is horse s  terrible sickle hocks!Coupled with a weak back end and poor front legs [ tied behind knee, etc etc] I cant see this horse standing up to work for long at all.
		
Click to expand...

I don't see evidence of sickle hocks from the two photos? Am I missing something obvious?

I wouldn't outright turn down this horse from the photos alone. A good second look at her in the flesh (paying particular attention to her less than ideal bits), would be on the cards if it was me in the OPs shoes.


----------



## Palindrome (28 December 2014)

I think the horse has a good confo for an eventer and I like her but yes tied below at the knee. It's up to you OP to see but if amateur horse for light work with excellent temperament would not necessarily pass up.


----------



## Hayleighm175 (28 December 2014)

Aleka81 said:



			Hi all
Please can I have your opinions on this horse






Thank you in advance
		
Click to expand...

I am not very good at conformation tbh. But if you like her and the price is right, i would buy her subject to vetting and a good trial!


----------



## Nudibranch (28 December 2014)

Comparison wise, I don't like the hind legs on the dark bay nor any legs on the bright bay. And the bright bay appears to have something of a roach back while the dark bay's neck looks short.
They are just photos, therefore all these observations could be incorrect but I don't believe that they are a help to the OP for comparison purposes. Sorry!


----------



## SpringArising (28 December 2014)

Nudibranch said:



			And the bright bay appears to have something of a roach back
		
Click to expand...

He doesn't have a roach back, he's just croup high.


----------



## seejay (28 December 2014)

SpringArising said:



			Right-click the image in Photobucket and select 'Copy Image URL'.

Paste the link in the text box, and at the start write 
	
	
		
		
	


	




.















Click to expand...

Does the first horse really have hind legs as straight as a pole as he looks in that photo, and as severe a jumper's rump?  Is he as severely under run at the front and as back at the knee as he appears?

Is the second horse as grossly overweight as she looks in that photo? And as short and upright in the pasterns? And again, possibly back at the knee?

Photos are extremely deceptive, but as a fun eventer, just from the photos we have, the horse the thread is about would be the one I would choose, subject to price.


----------



## Nudibranch (28 December 2014)

SpringArising said:



			He doesn't have a roach back, he's just croup high.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, I disagree with you there. I have a croup high TB and a rising 4 yo who is currently the same. If you look at the outline of that horse carefully, the whole back almost arches towards the croup from the wither.


----------



## seejay (28 December 2014)

SpringArising said:



			He doesn't have a roach back, he's just croup high.
		
Click to expand...

But he isn't, is he?  His wither is higher than his croup. even if you take some paper and recreate the ground line to bring his front and back feet level.


----------



## seejay (28 December 2014)

Nudibranch said:



			Sorry, I disagree with you there. I have a croup high TB. rising 4 yo who is currently the same. If you look at the outline of that horse carefully, the whole back almost arches towards the croup from the wither.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, if the photo is accurate


----------



## Goldenstar (28 December 2014)

I am sure where you expect to get with this seejay , if you post a picture and ask for opinions you will get them .
Yes pictures are often inaccurate but you have to thin down your viewing choices so I accept that I may decide not to view a horse on the basis of an poor picture and therefore miss a nice horse but so what there are plenty horses in the world .
I would not view any of the three horses on the basis of the these pictures , a picture is a snapshot and you take snapshot decisions on them.


----------



## AdorableAlice (28 December 2014)

I enjoy threads like this one, there is so much to learn when viewing and assessing horses.  If those of you with an interest in conformation have the chance to attend grading days or spend a day with a county show judge I would take the opportunity, it is a really good way of learning.

I always put the horse I am assessing into an imaginary box minus it's neck and head.  The shoulder, back and hind end plus the legs must fit into the box, if they do the horse is a correct and balanced type.  Then I move on to the limbs/feet, (often a minefield!), followed by the neck set.  If all that has pleased me I move on to the horse going through it's paces.

Being able to see a nice horse in the rough is a real challenge.  Here is a horse totally devoid of any muscle tone or fat to hide any conformational problems so he is easy to assess.  Have fun, it should be quite easy.


----------



## Moomin1 (28 December 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			I enjoy threads like this one, there is so much to learn when viewing and assessing horses.  If those of you with an interest in conformation have the chance to attend grading days or spend a day with a county show judge I would take the opportunity, it is a really good way of learning.

I always put the horse I am assessing into an imaginary box minus it's neck and head.  The shoulder, back and hind end plus the legs must fit into the box, if they do the horse is a correct and balanced type.  Then I move on to the limbs/feet, (often a minefield!), followed by the neck set.  If all that has pleased me I move on to the horse going through it's paces.

Being able to see a nice horse in the rough is a real challenge.  Here is a horse totally devoid of any muscle tone or fat to hide any conformational problems so he is easy to assess.  Have fun, it should be quite easy.






Click to expand...

My thoughts are that his faults are that he has upright pasterns, slightly upright shoulder, low set neck (possibly slightly ewe necked too).  Possibly a little over at the knee though hard to say from the pic.


----------



## meesha (28 December 2014)

I know nothing and just think he looks gorgeous and I can't see any major conformation flaws but as I said I know nothing!


----------



## windand rain (28 December 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			I am sure where you expect to get with this seejay , if you post a picture and ask for opinions you will get them .
Yes pictures are often inaccurate but you have to thin down your viewing choices so I accept that I may decide not to view a horse on the basis of an poor picture and therefore miss a nice horse but so what there are plenty horses in the world .
I would not view any of the three horses on the basis of the these pictures , a picture is a snapshot and you take snapshot decisions on them.
		
Click to expand...

This agree with entirely there is not one of those three that I would buy as an eventer from those photos they are all poor photos of what would from them appear to be poor quality horses sorry if that offends the actual horses are probably lovely and are entirely suitable for the job in question but the photos are dreadful to be honest I never look at the photos but read the description if it comes across as being anything close to what I want I go and look





two year old warm bood in the field I didnt think much of but bought





at three and becoming a lot like I like if a little portly





Just about my kind of horse

Still not good photos but he did turn out to be a lovely horse


----------



## TheMule (28 December 2014)

AdorableAlice said:








Click to expand...

A quality horse through and through- looks like he'd do any job.
For me he's a fraction upright behind, straight through the hocks and stands over himself a fraction with upright pasterns. I love his depth and power


----------



## AdorableAlice (28 December 2014)

Moomince Pie said:



			My thoughts are that his faults are that he has upright pasterns, slightly upright shoulder, low set neck (possibly slightly ewe necked too).  Possibly a little over at the knee though hard to say from the pic.
		
Click to expand...

Remember I said you are looking at him in the rough and as another poster mentioned a photo is a snapshot in time.  The picture you are looking at is a horse that had spent 11 months on barn rest following a career ending injury.  He has just been shod in the hope we could make a start on him hacking.  Effectively he had been stood still for nearly a year.

Would you believe me if I told you the photo below is the same horse.  Between 2007 and 2009 he was never out of the top 3, won 5 supremes, 2 national championships and competed at medium BD.  As a show hunter and dressage horse he had 156 competitive starts and won 136 of them.

Always see them in the flesh, photographs are only any good for a passing glance when it comes to assessing horses.


----------



## ester (28 December 2014)

AA I might be completely wrong here but spect you can clear me up  when I see pics of him I always wonder if his tail set is a bit high or if its just his pointy bum or what . I guess it is the WB in him and I am just too used to round welsh bottoms!


----------



## googol (28 December 2014)

He is gorgeous then and now AA! Fingers crossed you get him hacking again. In both pics he is a great stamp of a horse, with or without his issues and u've summed it up perfectly about reviewing pics of horses. 

I was just trying to find some stood up pics of my boy. Ridiculously I can't look at him and review his conformation not just because I've hardly a clue but also because to me he is just perfect and I love the bones of him. Useless lol
I couldn't post pics on here , he's too fat atm, my friend and I were having a wee giggle about that the other day, I would be slaughtered if I did- too many perfect horse owners with their opinions!


----------



## meesha (28 December 2014)

Omg I wasn't wrong! A first for me!


----------



## Moomin1 (28 December 2014)

AdorableAlice said:



			Remember I said you are looking at him in the rough and as another poster mentioned a photo is a snapshot in time.  The picture you are looking at is a horse that had spent 11 months on barn rest following a career ending injury.  He has just been shod in the hope we could make a start on him hacking.  Effectively he had been stood still for nearly a year.

Would you believe me if I told you the photo below is the same horse.  Between 2007 and 2009 he was never out of the top 3, won 5 supremes, 2 national championships and competed at medium BD.  As a show hunter and dressage horse he had 156 competitive starts and won 136 of them.

Always see them in the flesh, photographs are only any good for a passing glance when it comes to assessing horses.












Click to expand...

Yes absolutely.  I was just responding to what I saw in the pic you posted.  I wasn't trying to offend


----------



## AdorableAlice (28 December 2014)

ester said:



			AA I might be completely wrong here but spect you can clear me up  when I see pics of him I always wonder if his tail set is a bit high or if its just his pointy bum or what . I guess it is the WB in him and I am just too used to round welsh bottoms!
		
Click to expand...

Your Welsh tails are designed to withstand nasty weather and protect the bottoms beneath the tail when the horse stands with his bum to the wind.  Here is a picture of the tail set, it is a lot higher than Natives and the hind quarter is a different shape.  

Mr Leo does not do bad weather in any form or shape.  He lives in retirement, in a paddock with a bedded down barn.  If he goes to bed in the day I can guarantee it is about to rain.  We still laugh about a dressage test in a hail storm, he entered at A, halted at X and then reversed out of the arena, across the warm up, across the car park and did a turn on the forehand at the lorry ramp and loaded himself with his rider scrambling off the side of him.


----------



## AdorableAlice (28 December 2014)

Moomince Pie said:



			Yes absolutely.  I was just responding to what I saw in the pic you posted.  I wasn't trying to offend 

Click to expand...

Don't be daft ! that is exactly what I meant about using photographs to judge and what the op has experienced through the thread.  Until you are hands on in the flesh it is impossible to judge.

The pictures of the pair of 4 year olds further up the thread are a real example of bad pictures, the one looks like it has a pony neck and the other has no limbs.


----------



## ester (28 December 2014)

Well even Frank tells me that being born just outside of Cardiff does not count as dealing with Welsh mountain weather . 

Strangely your chap looks more 'normal' to me with it carried, so I reckon I've just seen too many pics of him stood still! I'm going to be assessing tail sets on the yard tomorrow now... :rolleyes3:


----------



## Meowy Catkin (28 December 2014)

AdorableAlice said:








Click to expand...

I like this horse very much but I don't like the way he's standing on his NH. IIRC, that was the leg that had the awful injury, as I'm sure that you've posted this photo (and a couple of others with him standing the same) before and I asked about his odd stance then too.


----------



## AdorableAlice (28 December 2014)

Faracat said:



			I like this horse very much but I don't like the way he's standing on his NH. IIRC, that was the leg that had the awful injury, as I'm sure that you've posted this photo (and a couple of others with him standing the same) before and I asked about his odd stance then too.
		
Click to expand...

Yes, you are right.  We have him fitted with 3 cavello boots that are a real success, but that hind keeps twisting the boot sideways.  I have been advised to try a 'glove' boot but haven't bought him one yet because I can't get him out at this time of year.  The ligament (check) has healed short and given us a massive problem with break over and alteration of foot fall.


----------



## Meowy Catkin (28 December 2014)

Can he put the heel down? 

I hope you find a boot that stays put once the weather improves.


----------



## aintgotnohay (29 December 2014)

i think if you just want a happy hacker then confirmation doesnt really matter so much.im a crap rider and if i had another horse it wouldnt go faster than a slow trot.been bomb proof on the roads and snaffle mouthed would be more important to me.i had an old cow hocked,roached backed and ewe necked old grey gelding once.just chucked a snafflr bridle and old saddle on him and away we went.he did the job for me.was a gent on the road for just plodding along at a nice slow pace....


----------



## Cortez (29 December 2014)

ALL of the photos with the exception of AA's are fantastic examples of how NOT to present a horse to the buying/viewing public. Since so few people know how to A. Stand up a horse, and B. Take a picture that does a horse justice (or even flatters it), it is always best to go and view. Even most videos manage to make horses look and move like Quasimodo (of course some horses ARE Quasimodo....). 

Have a look at some adverts from Germany, the US, Spain to see how horses should be presented.


----------



## AdorableAlice (29 December 2014)

Faracat said:



			Can he put the heel down? 

I hope you find a boot that stays put once the weather improves. 

Click to expand...

No, not as well as he needs to.  The hoof has changed shape and is impossible to put a shoe on, but with the use of Pro Hoof and  the low level cushings under control he finally has improved the quality of horn and is happy in his boots.  I am hoping the Spring will see him hacking a few days a week.  Minus 4 at 8am this morning on my yard, door bolts frozen solid and lanes like a skating ring, what fun !


----------

