# The best homozygeous coloured stallion to use



## levantosh (18 May 2010)

I want a coloured stallion modern sports horse type that produces great moving offspring.
MUST be homozygous to produce a coloured foal.


----------



## eventrider23 (18 May 2010)

Without doubt, and although I know I am biased, Sempers Spirit.  My foal by him is simply superb!!!  I could not ask for more and no one would EVER guess that she is out of a Welsh D mare!!!  Saffy's movement is just second to none....she ffloats in trot and is only less than a week old and her canter is uphil and covers the grounds.  No brainer for me.  Plus he has all the breeding, what with being by Semper and thus a direct link to the great Sandro, rather than going generations back!

Just look at this album of pics of my foal by him at 5 days old and see the quality and movement!
http://s1044.photobucket.com/albums/b441/equinoxsporthorses/saffy edited/

This is in that album but just an example of a 5 day old foals trot by him:


















and for canter/galloping/ground cover!












So a no brainer for me and I would use him again in a shot!!!


----------



## Clepottage (19 May 2010)

I also love Sempers Spirit, but to make a truely informed choice can we know a bit more about the mare (incl a piccy if possible) and also whether you'd consider any european stallions too?


----------



## Eothain (19 May 2010)

Is Utah Van Erpekom homozygeous? Might be worth considering


----------



## MillionDollar (19 May 2010)

It has to be Goshka Ringo for me  I have 2 out of Reg'd NF mares, to make 14.2 competition ponies. Here is one of mine at 2 years old-







Spiderman on here has a graded stallion by him, he is sooooo stunning!

Ringo's temperament is to die for too. When I went to see him his owner's sons who were about 10 at the time had just been out for a hack on him


----------



## Spiderman (19 May 2010)

I don't think it's a question about which is the best but more which is the best for your mare.
Without exception imo Ringo gives lift to the paces and I've not heard of a sharp one yet.
I too like the look of the SS foals although most I've seen have been out of mares of exceptional quality.
Chess M maybe one to consider but I'm not sure how available he is.

I've not been taken with the other homozygous stallions available in this country, I'm afraid.

Thanks MillionDollar for the compliment re my boy. He is throwing stunning foals but of course, is not homozygous.


----------



## eventrider23 (19 May 2010)

Amour G is certainly a credit to his sire and the best Ringo son I know!  I find though....personally....that he throws his best foals to blooded mares.....whether that is high TB blood of fine sports pony NF types.

My mare who I used on SS is a Welsh D so you could def says he ads quality.


----------



## Spiderman (19 May 2010)

Not disagreeing with you at all , and thanks for your comment re my lad,  but your mare has oodles of quality of her own.


----------



## eventrider23 (19 May 2010)

Thank you Pippa...not a lot of people would say that about a Welsh D!!!  They would say cob....yuk!


----------



## eventrider23 (19 May 2010)

Oh btw Utah van Erpekom is not homozygous.


----------



## S_N (19 May 2010)

Definitely depends on the mare!  My 2yo by Ringo is LOVELY!  She is beautifully marked and moves like a dream (when she's not going through a bum high growth spurt, like she is at present).  She naturally sits and moves from the shoulder when she's level and she has a lovely temperament.  As Ringo is now in France and IF I wanted to breed another coloured, I would seriously consider SS (would have to see him in the flesh first though), esp having seen the gorgeous Saffy!  There IS another homozygous colt in the UK, he is only coming 4 this time and has only been used on the studs own mares and is heading for a competition career first and foremost.  I believe he's free of Samber too!


----------



## angrovestud (19 May 2010)

We have a Homozygous Tobiano that is only three this year, first offspring is due in one month, he is samber free in fact hes British bred and warmblood free by way of a change, he is a sports type 15.2hh at present but should reach 15.3hh. very blood type and very calm, just like his sire.
he is half brother to our coloured racehorse and his grandsire won the Hoys Puissance in 2003.please pm me if your interested


----------



## levantosh (19 May 2010)

Hi guys thanks for all replies, mare is 16hh old fashion type TB produces foals that seem to have a bit of bone, also she throws quite large foals. Her offspring to date is an adv med winning dressage, 2 time winning eventer, winning dressage horse and a county show winner. And that is from 4 individual foals. She has not yet produced a chestnut foal.
She is main stud book graded scoring 8's and 9's, free mover and very straight.
Her last mating will be to Sandro Hit (all being well).
Stallion that would compliment her:
Short coupled
Refined
Uphill paces
Great hind leg
She lacks in elevation if I was to be very critical of her, confo is very good so want to maintain/improve these qualities.  
And she has only had one filly out of 6 foals


----------



## Depp_by_Chocolate (19 May 2010)

The coloured stallion I really like the look of and would possibly use on my own mare is Buenno.


----------



## eventrider23 (19 May 2010)

Personally, based on your description of your mare I woudl go Sempers Spirit as he will add (or should) all you require and his hock action as you have seen in my foal is superb!!! Plus apparantly he usually throws fillies!!!!  Colts from him are rarer!

Plus he is fully graded CHAPS Sportshorses and so you are entitled to full CC which I don't think the other homozygous stallions are as yet.


----------



## angrovestud (19 May 2010)

We must certainley will not and never will grade with Chaps, with any stallion I own. my boys will be registered with Weatherbys for covering cert and if Foxfolly farm stud wish to grade I would suggest anything but them.


----------



## eventrider23 (19 May 2010)

each to their own I guess and I have no prob with NTR except you cannot do AI with it.....


----------



## CheekyCob (20 May 2010)

What about Cutsdean Centurion?  Not used him ourselves but he is Homozygous.  Using Goshka Ringo this year on our TB mare.


----------



## angrovestud (20 May 2010)

Eventrider I was not a happy bunny yesterday and I should not of gone so far with my opinions on a public forum and we had been battling on with our new baby who had been to the loo 3 time we thought he was fine 24 hours later he suddenly was not going to the loo, and we could nearly have lost him after 9 hours and 4 batches of liquid Parafin up his bum by tube and 1 enemma (sorry can not spell this)! he eventually lost a poo which was like a stone so hard it could not be squashed.
I am told by admin I am not allowed to post my stallion foals pictures on here so sorry folkes he is on facebook though do take a look hes very special


----------



## eventrider23 (20 May 2010)

Is ok Angrove - everyone has bad days!

And WHY are you not allowed to post pics??


----------



## S_N (20 May 2010)

eventrider23 said:



			each to their own I guess and I have no prob with NTR except you cannot do AI with it.....
		
Click to expand...

Yes you can, you just have to inform Weatherbys if the foal is to be registered NTR.  Most NTR stallions cover mares from a huge variety of stud books.  Ringo is/was NTR and M was conceived by AI at the stud, before they moved to France.  He can only be AI now he is in France!


----------



## eventrider23 (20 May 2010)

Oh thank you for that SN!!!!!!  That is great to know!!!!  Thought was only allowed natural as that is what it says in their rulebooks!


----------



## S_N (20 May 2010)

It does say that in the rule books and if a TB is conceived via AI, then it will not be permitted in the General Stud Book.  When you register stock, it does ask on the CC if the horse was conceived via AI - though who would admit to that, it it were the case, God only knows!  It's a bit like the immigration forms you used to have fill in when flying to the USA - Have you murdered anyone?  Have you actively been involved in terrorism?  Like ANYONE would say yes!!  M has full SHB(GB) papers, as B is graded with them, which does help!


----------



## angrovestud (20 May 2010)

Stallion owners are not allowed to start threads in the breeding board about their stallions' progeny. 
This is so we can not do marketing of our stallions any of us, who own stallions and use them.
seems a bit odd when you can use someones elses stallion and post that. I wonder what would happen if visitors to our stud were to post photos of our stock which I have of course no control over we have had many visitors over the last three months only this weekend two teenagers had there cameras on the stallion and foal.


----------



## flyingcolors (20 May 2010)

Chess is one of only two full Warmblood approved and stallion performance tested homozygous tobiano stallions in the world. His brother Sempatico in USA is the other one.

His foals can get Oldenburg, Westfalen, Rheinlaender and lots of other Associations papers.


----------



## eventrider23 (20 May 2010)

It really sucks as stallion owners should be allowed to show off their babies.  YES in a way it is advertising but at the end of the day, regardless of whether by your stalllion or not, a lot of hard work goes into it and you should be allowed to shout your achivements from trhe rooftops!!!!!!  I know people have accused me in the past of working or being in promotion for Brendons and I know people will now think the same of myself and Sempers Spirit however I am firmly of the view that if you have been given excellent service by someone and end up esepcially with a beautiful bouncing baby at the end of it.....why shouldn't you be alllowed to let everyone know!!!  I am sooooo proud of my El Thuder colt.....why should I have to veto my pride because people think it is advertising.  Same with my Spirit filly.  This mare is a Welsh D but of unknown breeding so could have bred a donkey and whilst yes she had had nice foals to other stallions before, her cross with SS may not have worked well.  Luckily for me it did and I have the most stunning (although very independant) filly to prove it and I will let people know of the excellent experiences I have had with them.

Same with you Angrove....if I had used one of your boys and had my beautiful babies I would no less praise them!  I just hate it when people and admin see anyone saying good things about stallions or their progeny and instantly jumping on you......


----------



## Clepottage (21 May 2010)

To get back to the OP's question...

I'm also a fan of Ringo and even more so of Sempers Spirit, but personally, with the homozygosity brief, AND for this particular mare I would put my money on Chess.

That's not to say there aren't other homozygous tobiano stallions out there that are very nice indeed and would suit certain mares better, but IMHO given the description I think Chess a better match. 

...And to throw a final spanner in the works, I feel my personal absolute favourite tobiano stallions are only heterozygous anyway... Runing away now!


----------



## eventrider23 (21 May 2010)

Clepottage - why should you feel you need to run away for giving your opinoin!!!????  It is just as valid as everyone else's no matter what anyone says!!!  Chess is actually a stallion I like but because he is not hugely marketed in the UK, then he kind of almost gets 'forgotten' and I so do NOT mean that in a rude way....just that because you do not hear of him often you put him to the back of your brain when looking at stallions.  

To the OP...whichever stallion you choose, whether Ringo, Spirit, Chess or another....good luck!  I hope you get exactly what you want as I know I did this year (mind you i would have loved her with a SLIGHTLY less independant streak as is happy to leave mum already!!!).


----------



## levantosh (21 May 2010)

Clepottage no need to run I value every ones opinion and am very glad someone actually got back to the original post 
personally I don't like Chess and not really a fan of Ringo (I must stress before I get jumped on they do nothing for me personally and I'm sure they produce gorgeous foals for other breeders) 
I really am take by SS and love the pic of the wee foal that has been posted!
I'm sure I will find one I like lol.
Thanks again everyone.


----------



## Fahrenheit (21 May 2010)

Anyone used CHess M in this country? Does anyone know what the quality of his semen is like?


----------



## markvannunen (21 May 2010)

Wentink from Scotland AI service is offering Barcutan Zulu Chief.
Homozygous, 16.1hh, Samber, Ico free and British bred by Cutsdean Centurion x Honeybrook Zulu.
He will be presented for grading later this year.


----------



## eventrider23 (21 May 2010)

Awww I'm glad you like my little Saffy!!! Thank you!!!


----------



## flyingcolors (22 May 2010)

Regarding Chess semen it is excellent and some have used the semen 72 hours later. Last year we run into a crook that sent out semen with mixed extender and it seems he also did not collect him properly. So all had a free return.

He is now at the Rollehof with Andreas Müller where also Brookhouse is situated and Mr Müller does a great job. Even the third day the semen can still be used for examinations I was told from breeders that got semen this year. 

If you want more exact information please contact Andreas Müller via email rollehof@gmx.de so you can get the semen details.

BTW Milky Way is standing at the same AI station and is available shipped semen too.


----------



## magic104 (22 May 2010)

The best stallion has always got to be the one that suits your mare, your budget & what you hope to acheive.


----------



## S_N (22 May 2010)

flyingcolors said:



			Regarding Chess semen it is excellent and some have used the semen 72 hours later. Last year we run into a crook that sent out semen with mixed extender and it seems he also did not collect him properly. So all had a free return.

BTW Milky Way is standing at the same AI station and is available shipped semen too.
		
Click to expand...

Be careful!  A lot of people are aware where both stallions stood/boarded for at least part of last season and even if you are not implying that place, assumptions are all too easily made!


----------



## flyingcolors (22 May 2010)

S-N you confuse something! 

Milky Way stood at Groomsbridge and the service and care of Milky Way was more than excellent!

Chess was standing at a GERMAN AI center and NOT at Groomsbridge so please do not think wrong! The crook was the German AI center and the states attorney is following the dealings.


----------



## S_N (22 May 2010)

Thanks for that.  See, it's easy to come to the wrong conclusion!  Sorry that you had a bad experience and I hope it's all sorted smoothly.


----------



## eventrider23 (22 May 2010)

Markvannunnen - whatever happened to (I THINK) your homozygous stallion Whats Colour aka Tom Tom??


----------



## markvannunen (23 May 2010)

eventrider23 said:



			Markvannunnen - whatever happened to (I THINK) your homozygous stallion Whats Colour aka Tom Tom??
		
Click to expand...

I sold him to Australia to EBlodge.

This is a video under saddle just after he arrived end of 2008 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QKsEOkenKY


----------



## eventrider23 (23 May 2010)

Ahhh that's a shame - I always liked the look of him and was looking forward to seeing him older.


----------



## Clepottage (23 May 2010)

levantosh said:



			I really am take by SS
		
Click to expand...

He is lovely, I've had a couple cracking babies by him.



HorseGroupie said:



			Anyone used CHess M in this country? Does anyone know what the quality of his semen is like?
		
Click to expand...

Yes and IME the semen has been excellent.


----------



## markvannunen (23 May 2010)

I would prefer Semper's Spirit over Chess. There are hardly pictures available of Chess his offspring and I can only find 2 .

I like the look of the Semper's Spirits foals ánd he is performing in sport.


----------



## markvannunen (23 May 2010)

eventrider23 said:



			Ahhh that's a shame - I always liked the look of him and was looking forward to seeing him older.
		
Click to expand...

Thnx for the compliment

These are recent pictures:


----------



## eventrider23 (23 May 2010)

Mark....all I can say is WOW!!!  He looks amazing and has really grown into himself!!!  I saw a very smart UK offspring of his for sale the other day which is what broght him back to mind!!  How is he doing out there and any chance if he does well of frozen???  Also, how was he bred again??


----------



## magic104 (24 May 2010)

eventrider23 said:



			Mark....all I can say is WOW!!!  He looks amazing and has really grown into himself!!!  I saw a very smart UK offspring of his for sale the other day which is what broght him back to mind!!  How is he doing out there and any chance if he does well of frozen???  Also, how was he bred again??
		
Click to expand...

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?z=1rB8V4&d=Whats+Colour+&x=35&y=14


----------



## markvannunen (24 May 2010)

eventrider23 said:



			Mark....all I can say is WOW!!!  He looks amazing and has really grown into himself!!!  I saw a very smart UK offspring of his for sale the other day which is what broght him back to mind!!  How is he doing out there and any chance if he does well of frozen???  Also, how was he bred again??
		
Click to expand...

He's doing well, did some shows and covers a lot of mares for what I understand. 
I have a little bit of frozen semen left that I will use on my own mares.

He freezes well but I don't know if they are planning to do it but you can always contact them. www.eblodge.com.au


----------



## flyingcolors (24 May 2010)

Few pictures of a stallion on a website do not mean the stallion is bad! 

Chess has lots of breedings this year as the breeders can get Warmblood papers from all German Associations except Hannover and Holstein as they do not accept the tobiano pattern. So there will be more pictures of foals by him the coming season.


----------



## markvannunen (24 May 2010)

This is 1 of my foals from last year by TomTom:


----------



## eventrider23 (24 May 2010)

Gorgeous foal!


----------



## markvannunen (24 May 2010)

flyingcolors said:



			Few pictures of a stallion on a website do not mean the stallion is bad! 

Chess has lots of breedings this year as the breeders can get Warmblood papers from all German Associations except Hannover and Holstein as they do not accept the tobiano pattern. So there will be more pictures of foals by him the coming season.
		
Click to expand...

I never said he is bad, I just pointed out why I would take SS over him.
I'm very curious to see his foals next season or are there a lot coming also this year?


----------



## markvannunen (24 May 2010)

In NZ this yearling mare by TomTom was champion coloured at the Canterbury Riding Club Inhand Show - 22 November 09. Earlier she was Reserve Champion Female youngstock at the Christchurch show. And recently at the Canterbury Breeders Show 2010 she become Champion Pinto Youngstock. She was bred in NZ with frozen semen.


----------



## eventrider23 (24 May 2010)

Some absolutely gorgeous stock by him!!!  Such a shame he is not over here anymore


----------



## winchester (24 May 2010)

markvannunen said:



			I never said he is bad, I just pointed out why I would take SS over him.
I'm very curious to see his foals next season or are there a lot coming also this year?
		
Click to expand...

I am hoping to use him this year - Flyingcolours PLEASE respond to my emails!!!


----------



## markvannunen (24 May 2010)

winchester said:



			I am hoping to use him this year - Flyingcolours PLEASE respond to my emails!!!
		
Click to expand...

Have you used the semen order form?


----------



## Nailed (24 May 2010)

I just dont get the whole... 'i want a coloured' 'must be coloured' what difference does the bloody colour make.. 
Lou x


----------



## angrovestud (24 May 2010)

Once you have been bitten you are hooked on coloured, I like  plain horses but there is always some indvidulality about a coloured and we have now bred Three in a row who are Homozgous by two Heterozygous parents.
I am very proud of both of them,
Mark your ex boy looks amazing and his offspring look great you also must be very proud Gwe what is Chess up to theses days?
Just next year Lev and I have decided that our 3 year old Homozygous mare is more like a uphill warmblood to produce racers for us so we eed to find the best Homozygous competetion stallion its got to be really saleable offspring as it will be a guarenteed Homozygous foal, we only want to do AI as well


----------



## markvannunen (24 May 2010)

angrovestud said:



			Once you have been bitten you are hooked on coloured, I like  plain horses but there is always some indvidulality about a coloured and we have now bred Three in a row who are Homozgous by two Heterozygous parents.
I am very proud of both of them,
Mark your ex boy looks amazing and his offspring look great you also must be very proud Gwe what is Chess up to theses days?
Just next year Lev and I have decided that our 3 year old Homozygous mare is more like a uphill warmblood to produce racers for us so we eed to find the best Homozygous competetion stallion its got to be really saleable offspring as it will be a guarenteed Homozygous foal, we only want to do AI as well
		
Click to expand...

I might be not the best idea to cover a homozygous mare with a homozygous stallion if you want to sell the foal. In your case i would use a very good jumping stallion like Baloubet du Rouet and sell that outstanding bred coloured foal for much more money then  "just" a homozygous one. But that's just my opinion;-)


----------



## angrovestud (24 May 2010)

Oh thanks Mark what sort of money if you dont mind me asking please PM me thanks XX


----------



## flyingcolors (24 May 2010)

For once I agree with Mr van Nunen, I would breed a homozygous colored mare to one of the "fashion" stallions that are highly in demand as then the foal will certainly sell as easy and more than if it is homozygous colored.


----------



## markvannunen (24 May 2010)

flyingcolors said:



			For once I agree with Mr van Nunen, I would breed a homozygous colored mare to one of the "fashion" stallions that are highly in demand as then the foal will certainly sell as easy and more than if it is homozygous colored.
		
Click to expand...

We do have a match after all;-)


----------



## magic104 (24 May 2010)

As much as I love to see the foals, I also like to see their dams, for me this is a better indication as to what sort of foals the stallion produces.  I know I am not the only person to think the mare gets too little attention!  I think that is what so good about going to the stud open days, because very often you get to see the whole package, dam, stallion & offspring.


----------



## eventrider23 (25 May 2010)

I woudl also have to totally agree with the above and thankfully more and more stud with homozygous horses are following this trend.  One stud I won't mention for fear of advertising have made up a band of decently bred homozygous mares and bred to popular and fashionable solid stallions like London Swing, Stalypso, Bentley, Ampere and more and I know of a nother with homozygous mares doing the same with top jumping stallions.  Definitely the way to go to improve coloured breeding!


----------



## HarasdeMarwood (25 May 2010)

I have a mahogany bay tovero tested at 75 - 90%, he is half PRE, but looks more Spanish than his father. Bert although young has a massive pop to him.

Although his father is a jumping horse in France. Google my Rancar Arado and find Ulberto do Marwood.


----------



## markvannunen (25 May 2010)

HarasdeMarwood said:



			I have a mahogany bay tovero tested at 75 - 90%, he is half PRE, but looks more Spanish than his father. Bert although young has a massive pop to him.

Although his father is a jumping horse in France. Google my Rancar Arado and find Ulberto do Marwood.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=56475&id=1013171604&l=400ebb7e53

Click to expand...

How can he be tested 75 - 90%!? The foal is coloured, or not. 50% is a better number.

Your horse looks tobiano to me!? Not tovero. This topic is about homozygous tobiano not homozygous tovero. In WB breeding talking about homozygous means homozygous tobiano.

But I understand your horse in not homozygous?


----------



## HarasdeMarwood (25 May 2010)

He is deemed by the testing agency to be tovero and this is what is on their certificate.

I am sorry he is not a warmblood, but there are other breeds out there that jump and perform equally well but are not warmbloods.


----------



## angrovestud (25 May 2010)

did they test for LWO then? as well as Tobiano as thats the only other test apart from sabino 1 if that is you are using Animal Genetics in the UK to do the testing as the Splash gene has not been found I am assuming your horse is carring Frame Overo?


----------



## HarasdeMarwood (25 May 2010)

I am going to have "the full monty" done on him, 2 years ago when he was tested they didn't have all of the options that they have now. Back then I sent the sample and a picture of him and this is why they have put on the certificate Tovero.

I must test my grey too because he has never thrown a grey, but throws bays and dun dilutes with leg barrings.

I will update you if you like when the tests are back.


----------



## levantosh (25 May 2010)

NAILED, as to your reply 'what difference does the bloody colour make' it makes no difference but I want to breed for myself not for anyone else. And what is the point of me putting my mares to a stallion to get a foal I don't want! So yes I do want a homozygous stallion to make sure I at least a get a coloured foal I do want, regardless of it's sex!

Some people try and avoid breeding chestnuts so what is the difference of people doing that and me wanting to breed a coloured?


----------



## Shakira38 (4 June 2010)

markvannunen said:



			Wentink from Scotland AI service is offering Barcutan Zulu Chief.
Homozygous, 16.1hh, Samber, Ico free and British bred by Cutsdean Centurion x Honeybrook Zulu.
He will be presented for grading later this year.





Click to expand...

I really like this stallion. Have been looking around at the moment for a stallion for my mare next year. Needs to be Bay/Brown and white homozygous. Are there any more pictures or videos of him anywhere?


----------



## markvannunen (4 June 2010)

I would just contact them through the website www.scotlandaiservice.com


----------



## Shakira38 (4 June 2010)

markvannunen said:



			I would just contact them through the website www.scotlandaiservice.com

Click to expand...


I've been looking around on the internet today again and came across an old advert for your former stallion Tom Tom, which led me to the Scottish AI services website and saw that he had been sold which was where I found this stallion. I wonder if I could pick your brains for the perfect daddy options! My mare is 151cm buckskin and white heterzygous tobiano mare of show hunter type. I primarily show her which she does very well at. I want to put more height on the foal so that it could show it in horse classes and still show mum in pony classes. The foal is to be kept so I want something really special to show so superb confirmation and movement a must. I have been told that if I wanted to try and get her colour re-produced then I need to put her to a bay/brown and white homozygous tobiano stallion. Doing that will give me the following colour possibilities (all things being well):
43.95% -  Buckskin Tobiano  
43.95% -  Bay Tobiano  
3.13% -  Palomino Tobiano  
3.13% -  Chestnut Tobiano  
2.93% -  Smoky Black Tobiano  
2.93% -  Black Tobiano  

The possible stallions I've seen that I like so far is the one above, Merrigans Legacy (however for sale and not at stud yet), and Sempers Spirit. Does Sempers Spirit have a blue eye? or is it my eye sight?
Will try and upload a picture of my mare...bear with me!


----------



## Shakira38 (4 June 2010)




----------



## eventrider23 (4 June 2010)

Sempers Spirit does indeed have a blue eye BUT you will find that that is actually quite a common trait in homozygous horses and I do not believe you will find any of his progeny have inherited it or if so not very many of them have and my foal by him and none I have ever seen by him have a blue eye.  As I said, is a trait in homozygous horses, like with inks spots,


----------



## Truly (4 June 2010)

Shakira38 said:



			I've been looking around on the internet today again and came across an old advert for your former stallion Tom Tom, which led me to the Scottish AI services website and saw that he had been sold which was where I found this stallion. I wonder if I could pick your brains for the perfect daddy options! My mare is 151cm buckskin and white heterzygous tobiano mare of show hunter type. I primarily show her which she does very well at. I want to put more height on the foal so that it could show it in horse classes and still show mum in pony classes. The foal is to be kept so I want something really special to show so superb confirmation and movement a must. I have been told that if I wanted to try and get her colour re-produced then I need to put her to a bay/brown and white homozygous tobiano stallion. Doing that will give me the following colour possibilities (all things being well):
43.95% -  Buckskin Tobiano  
43.95% -  Bay Tobiano  
3.13% -  Palomino Tobiano  
3.13% -  Chestnut Tobiano  
2.93% -  Smoky Black Tobiano  
2.93% -  Black Tobiano  

The possible stallions I've seen that I like so far is the one above, Merrigans Legacy (however for sale and not at stud yet), and Sempers Spirit. Does Sempers Spirit have a blue eye? or is it my eye sight?
Will try and upload a picture of my mare...bear with me!
		
Click to expand...

You need to test your mare for the agouti and the red gene, if she is homozygous for agouti (AA)she won't produce a black or smokey black..if she is doesn't have the red gene and is homozygous for the black gene (EE) then she won't produce chesnut or palomino.
If she is heterozygous for both Aa , Ee then you may need to ask the stallion owners if the stallions are AA and EE as that will narrow your possibilities down to Buckskin or Bay


----------



## angrovestud (5 June 2010)

Splash white is the gene responsible for blue eyes it when tobiano horses carry splash white it show up as its possibly homozygous splash as well.


----------



## markvannunen (5 June 2010)

eventrider23 said:



			Sempers Spirit does indeed have a blue eye BUT you will find that that is actually quite a common trait in homozygous horses and I do not believe you will find any of his progeny have inherited it or if so not very many of them have and my foal by him and none I have ever seen by him have a blue eye.  As I said, is a trait in homozygous horses, like with inks spots,
		
Click to expand...

Allthough I like the SS progeny very much I must disagree with you about the blue eye. It's not a trait in homozygous horses, it's another gene that makes the eye blue. And yes, there is progeny with a blue eye. Actually on his website ( SS x Terimon ).
I wouldn't hesitate to use SS given the pictures I have seen on his website. I do have a comment though: some of the foals look a bit small but most of the time the dam is not on the picture so I can't compare and/or see how big the mother is.


----------



## volatis (6 June 2010)

Spirit himself is a little small, so bred to smaller mares, I suspect the ofsrping would be smaller. I used him on a 15.3hh Trakehner mare and the filly was very elegant and not overly big, which is what I had hoped for. I also used him on a big old fashioned stamp of a mare by Demonstrator and that foal was certainly not small, but had all of the mare's size and power, but colour and a little refinement from the sire.

So as with anything it depends what you want to breed. Personally I would use Spirit on big powerhouse mares to add a little more modern type and Ringo on blood mares to add a little more bone and suspension.


----------



## eventrider23 (6 June 2010)

Thanks for that Mark - missed that one.  His foals though are I would say averaged sized.  My own born this year is out of a 15.2 Welsh D mare and this is her at 24 days old...not exactly small!!!!












This is mum's 5th foal and her first (my 5 yr old is 16hh - by 16hh stallion) and all others have been smaller.  Her 2nd foal, full sister to the 5 yr old is only about 15.1/2
These are her first 2 foals (by Alderfarn VII not SS and whilst deceptive, the one on left is my 5 yr old who is 16hh and one on right is only about 15.2
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3748024&l=9fe714ac4f&id=517898863

So whlist my mare may not be big she usually throws bigger than herself (although always gone to bigger stallions!) but this one will be the biggest and I expect my SS filly to make about 16.2hh!


----------



## markvannunen (6 June 2010)

I like that filly Jane!
It's a little hard to say what the outcome is when you cross a warmblood where about we know so much. For example, Marco Polo ( who is in SS pedigree ) downsizes 2.73 cm on a mare from 1.65m.
Now you have your mare, the genepool she comes from I don't know. It seems she comes form a tall family because non of her foals is smaller then she is. But that's just a suggestion offcourse.

What I mean to say is, when you have all these information from sire and damline, it's much easier to pick a stallion. And the outcome of this breeding is not a total gamble anymore;-)


----------



## eventrider23 (6 June 2010)

I'm glad you like her Mark!!!!  She is very very special to me!!!! and as we are now friends on FB have a look for more pics of her!!!  She is a super filly and MY GOD can she move!  As said above I have her elder brother but her is a show horse and I wanted the sportier version....ideally a filly....and that's what I got....yay!


----------



## eventrider23 (6 June 2010)

BTW Mark - the mare is pure Welsh D - her breeders have been traced but just never bothered registering any of them!!!  So she is not from a larger line...just throws big foals!


----------



## markvannunen (6 June 2010)

A breeder who used TomTom in his first year also had a Welsh or Welshmountain/Highland (?)pony. This is the result at 1 day old:





Can't trace her, I would have liked to see her maturing.


----------



## special design (6 June 2010)

Well i dont normally post on subjects like this but seen as how someone seems to know more about my stallion than me AGAIN.
Mark a link to Sempers Spirit pedigree http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=178094&maxniveau=6
I am struggling to find Marco Polo ???????????????????
Perhaps he may have infuence in the size of Spirits progeny, if he were actually in it.
And yes Sempers Spirit does have a blue eye, im sure anyone that knows Mark Van Nunnen will know what a problem he has with it, as he blatently posted on a forum that i actually tried to cover the blue eye up !!! Ha Ha pretty unbelievable.
Yes he has thrown 2 foals with blue eyes, out of the 54 foals that i have seen by him.


----------



## markvannunen (7 June 2010)

special design said:



			Well i dont normally post on subjects like this but seen as how someone seems to know more about my stallion than me AGAIN.
Mark a link to Sempers Spirit pedigree http://www.paardenfokken.nl/pedigree.php?horseid=178094&maxniveau=6
I am struggling to find Marco Polo ???????????????????
Perhaps he may have infuence in the size of Spirits progeny, if he were actually in it.
And yes Sempers Spirit does have a blue eye, im sure anyone that knows Mark Van Nunnen will know what a problem he has with it, as he blatently posted on a forum that i actually tried to cover the blue eye up !!! Ha Ha pretty unbelievable.
Yes he has thrown 2 foals with blue eyes, out of the 54 foals that i have seen by him.
		
Click to expand...

You are so right, I do ow you a big apology, I mixed his pedigree up with Chess and Sempatico. I'm so sorry for that. 
I thought that after my review of his progeny and recommendation for him we could leave the "blue eye story" behind us.Now, I do feel however, that I have to defend myself.
These 2 pics were the first you placed on your website by then, they are still on. After my comments another picture with a blue eye was placed.
I won't make a comment on the original pics now, let people judge for them self if they are edited or not.











Edit: I hope you understand now that I don't have a problem with a blue eye but do have a problem when people try to mask it.


----------



## eventrider23 (7 June 2010)

To be fair it could just be how the light is hitting that pic as the blue eye is obvious in many photos.  Irresecpective I would use him again in a shot and adore my baby by him!


----------



## special design (7 June 2010)

You are so right, I do ow you a big apology, I mixed his pedigree up with Chess and Sempatico. I'm so sorry for that. 
I thought that after my review of his progeny and recommendation for him we could leave the "blue eye story" behind us.Now, I do feel however, that I have to defend myself.
These 2 pics were the first you placed on your website by then, they are still on. After my comments another picture with a blue eye was placed.
I won't make a comment on the original pics now, let people judge for them self if they are edited or not.



Edit: I hope you understand now that I don't have a problem with a blue eye but do have a problem when people try to mask it

Mark if it bothers you soooooooooo much and clearly it does ! why dont you call the photographer who took them and buy 2 copies then you will see for yourself they havent been touched, i will glady send you the number to call and he still does photos for the gradings.
I really dont get the point your trying to make AGAIN, most people who use Sempers Spirit come to see him in the flesh or have seen him, and i dont put a fly mask on him when they arrive, so why would i try to hide it on just 2 of his website photos ?
Its been a good 3 years since this debate started with you, i dread to think how much sleep you loose over other people's business, why get yourself involved,
{Jelousy/ dont like me/ just like to cause trouble on any forum/ so people choose your stallion }???????????? only you will know the answer.

Sempers Spirit is clearly producing good foals to a range of mares and everyone has been impressed with there foals and many have used  him several times on different mares aswell.
Blue eye or not, a quality foal/horse is just that, if people dont like it they dont use him SIMPLE.
Enough said from me now as i really do have better things to be doing than lowering myself to your standards.


----------



## markvannunen (7 June 2010)

Dear Amanda,

For the record: I'm posting in this thread for almost all pages so not jumping in to pick on your horse.
Shakira asked if SS really has a blue eye. I wasn't the one who responded on that. Eventrider did. Eventrider confirmed him having a blue eye and that she didn't know of any offspring with blue eyes and that blue eyes are common in homozygous.

I replied that blue eyes is not a homozygous mark and that there is offspring with blue eyes. I didn't give any wrong or not wrong value on it. 

IMO this belongs in a regular discussion about a horse. Not to forget that I said I wouldn't hesitate to use SS having seen his offspring. So, in my whole post I haven't said a wrong word about SS.

Answering your questions:

I'm a jelous? No, I don't see why.
Don't I like you? Had a 1 time conversation with you so don't really know.
Cause trouble on any forum? I don't see why my first reaction was causing trouble, yours however is making it.
So people use my stallion? My stallion was sold in 2008...don't have 1 anymore neither do I own a share in 1.

To eventrider, I know more pics with a blue eye were posted but these 2 were the first ones, before the blue eye pictures. Amanda allready explained me in a private mail 3 yrs ago that I should ask the photographer how this happened. Which I should, he must be fantastic being the first who makes a blue coloured eye dark using only FLASHlight.

I never, ever have mentioned the story again, not in person, not in a forum. I even have never spoken bad about SS.

Once again, I feel sorry you bragging up the blue eye story again and that I need to defend myself. Specially because I only said positive things about him. A PM would have been better in this matter.


----------



## flyingcolors (7 June 2010)

And neither Sempatico nor Chess have so far produced smaller foals because of Marco Polo in their pedigree. In fact there are several 17 hh horses by Sempatico and the Chess foals have so far been normal heights. And Chess himself is 16.2 hh tall. A filly was even awarded a premium with the Oldenburg Verband. You should stop to always find something to discriminate and critisize those stallions that are competition to yours. I have never seen a post by you that has not some kind of negative remarks about other people's stallions.


----------



## Shakira38 (7 June 2010)

Shakira38 said:



			I've been looking around on the internet today again and came across an old advert for your former stallion Tom Tom, which led me to the Scottish AI services website and saw that he had been sold which was where I found this stallion. I wonder if I could pick your brains for the perfect daddy options! My mare is 151cm buckskin and white heterzygous tobiano mare of show hunter type. I primarily show her which she does very well at. I want to put more height on the foal so that it could show it in horse classes and still show mum in pony classes. The foal is to be kept so I want something really special to show so superb confirmation and movement a must. I have been told that if I wanted to try and get her colour re-produced then I need to put her to a bay/brown and white homozygous tobiano stallion. Doing that will give me the following colour possibilities (all things being well):
43.95% -  Buckskin Tobiano  
43.95% -  Bay Tobiano  
3.13% -  Palomino Tobiano  
3.13% -  Chestnut Tobiano  
2.93% -  Smoky Black Tobiano  
2.93% -  Black Tobiano  

The possible stallions I've seen that I like so far is the one above, Merrigans Legacy (however for sale and not at stud yet), and Sempers Spirit. Does Sempers Spirit have a blue eye? or is it my eye sight?
Will try and upload a picture of my mare...bear with me!
		
Click to expand...

I am sorry about my comment about the blue eye. I had only asked as a mere observation in the photos. I didn't intend for this row to start over my question and I didn't mean for it to sound as though it was a fault!


----------



## markvannunen (7 June 2010)

flyingcolors said:



			And neither Sempatico nor Chess have so far produced smaller foals because of Marco Polo in their pedigree. In fact there are several 17 hh horses by Sempatico and the Chess foals have so far been normal heights. And Chess himself is 16.2 hh tall. A filly was even awarded a premium with the Oldenburg Verband. You should stop to always find something to discriminate and critisize those stallions that are competition to yours. I have never seen a post by you that has not some kind of negative remarks about other people's stallions.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe you should read better;-) How many Chess M foals are there actually...People like to know.

As I earlier said, I don't have a coloured stallion neither do I have a share in it. If you and others having problems with your stallions being discussed don't sent them at public stud.


----------



## markvannunen (7 June 2010)

@Shakira: You don't have to apologize it was a normal question and you got two normal answers. Answers that you as a breeder want to know to make sure you pick the right stallion.

It's me who steps on tows, even if I'm not;-)


----------



## angrovestud (8 June 2010)

I have slept on this before I have decided to post, I have been reported twice to admin now and only on my posts containing the word Homozygous stallion didnt say homozyous for a colour!  but its upsetting someone and all I can say to that person is we thank you for telling us how good we are cheers we must be a treat to there stallion


----------



## eventrider23 (8 June 2010)

Angrove - it is not only you.  I have been reported for talking about my young PRIVATE 2 yr old stallion as advertising.  Have also been reported for advertising of the stallion I used on my mare last year and the resulting posts about my gorgeous foal as my posting pictures of said foal was taken by someone as my advertising the stallion!!!!  I was only in both cases posting proud mum posts a)about my colt and b)about my filly!!!  It does seem to me though on here that if you post about a foreign bred foal no one complains!!!  So don't worry angrove...not just you!


----------



## angrovestud (8 June 2010)

Hi Event rider I was also very proud to see a foal we had a part in creating and the other post with the H word in it, how many posts have you had pulled?


----------



## eventrider23 (8 June 2010)

Prob about 3 now


----------



## hippomaniac (8 June 2010)

It does seem to be getting to a point where the site should be called breeding but not to mention Stallion that may be owned or was owned, not to mention Foals by said Stallions etc etc  getting silly isnt it


----------



## eventrider23 (8 June 2010)

I think it is silly really, I know from HHO POV people promoting stallions on here means they may not need to advertise in mag but I actually think oppsosite is true.  If people see their stallion's being discussed favourably and chatted about, etc then, iMO they are more likely to place an add in the magazine.  Not to mention, as I have said before...how can you have a successful breeding board without mentioning the breeding of the horses???  Not to mentnion stallion discussions?? If someone asks about a which stallion post, I would LOVE for the stallion owner/those with personal experience to be able to come on and give personal info and details!!!


----------



## markvannunen (8 June 2010)

I also had a post removed with homozygous in it. 
I do see all kind of trolls asking questions about how is this cremello or that homozygous stallion? And within minutes all kind of posts with positive stories about that stallion pop up.

You can better allow reviews or posts about a stallion otherwise don't call this section "breeding".


----------



## Truly (8 June 2010)

It's got silly because a 'few' have ruined it for the rest of us by either obviously promoting their stallion or by being crafty and posting a question which leads to you checking out their website.
I personally think you should be allowed to answer posts and mention your own stallion but there are those that abuse that and post tons of pics and really brag.


----------



## Polotash (8 June 2010)

I think Sambertino is homozygous if you want to add another to the list..?


----------



## hippomaniac (8 June 2010)

It would seem that this is not a site for Stallion owners, and one would wonder "is it Discrimination"


----------



## eventrider23 (8 June 2010)

Sorry Potolash but Sambertino not homozygous unortunately.


----------



## levantosh (8 June 2010)

I think this thread has gone completly off track and I think if we want to discuss owners not being allowed to mention their stallions then please start a new thread, I would be more than happy to comment on that as I think its a shame too. 
But as I say this thread has lost its way from my original post...


----------



## angrovestud (8 June 2010)

As a S******* Owner we are not allowed to even start a thread that even mentions our own stallion not being allowed to be posted so its down to someone who does not own one to post.


----------



## markvannunen (8 June 2010)

I don't and my post was taken off also.


----------



## Shakira38 (8 June 2010)

They'll have you guys with pictures of your stallion on your signature having to pay for that soon! It is bad. I think it is two different categories of people who go on here and people who buy the magazine. So much for free speech hey!?


----------



## crellow4 (8 June 2010)

I have seen some very nice foals by Buenno this year, Airborn is also homozygous I believe. Browsing google I noticed that Westpoint Stud has Goshka Ringo available this year.


----------



## S_N (8 June 2010)

eventrider23 said:



			Sorry Potolash but Sambertino not homozygous unortunately.
		
Click to expand...

He is homozygous for the black gene, not tobiano.  So cannot sire a chesnut.


----------



## ColourFan (10 June 2010)

For those interested ... a -by no means complete! - list of known homozygous tobiano stallions:

Australia:  
TomTom (What's Colour) = homoz. Black AND Tobiano

Belgium:
Cesaer Ter Linder = homoz. Black AND Tobiano (www.hoeveterlinden.be)

France:
Zorro van Erpekom  = homoz. Black AND Tobiano (http://monsite.orange.fr/zorro.van.erpekom/page1.html)

England:
Goshka Ringo = homoz. Black AND Tobiano
Sempers Spirit = homoz. Black AND Tobiano

Germany:
Chess M = homoz. Black AND Tobiano

the Netherlands:
Colorance = homoz. Tobiano, heteroz. Black/Red AND Agouti
James Bont Junior = homoz. Tobiano AND Red (chestnut) AND homoz. reces. Agouti (aa)

U.S.A.:
Sempatico = homoz. Black AND Tobiano
State of the Art = homoz. Tobiano, ?? Black

There are however quite a few heterozygous tobiano available.


----------



## flyingcolors (10 June 2010)

But of all those listed and maybe some more, only Sempatico M and Chess M are approved for Warmblood breeding and have a full 70 days performance test which allows them to have foals with most all major Warmblood Breed Associations


----------



## eventrider23 (10 June 2010)

I THINK there is also this boy: http://www.stallionsonline.co.uk/stallion_24349.html but doesn't whether TT Black or tobiano.

What about Cutsdean Centurion??  Or something like that???

In pony stallions I am sure there is also Acado


----------



## Shakira38 (10 June 2010)

eventrider23 said:



			I THINK there is also this boy: http://www.stallionsonline.co.uk/stallion_24349.html but doesn't whether TT Black or tobiano.

What about Cutsdean Centurion??  Or something like that???

In pony stallions I am sure there is also Acado
		
Click to expand...

Cutsdean Centurion is and one of his sons, BARCUTAN ZULU CHIEF is homozygous tobiano too.


----------



## markvannunen (10 June 2010)

flyingcolors said:



			But of all those listed and maybe some more, only Sempatico M and Chess M are approved for Warmblood breeding and have a full 70 days performance test which allows them to have foals with most all major Warmblood Breed Associations
		
Click to expand...


And may be your Chess did a performancetest  but what Ringo, What's Colour and Sempers Spirit have ahead of him is: offspring...and many offspring, good scoring at gradings and shows. The first 2 of Ceasar are also born at Elvingston stud and the 3rd yesterday at Scotland AI Service.

Now...Chess is covering since 2007, where is his offspring!?


----------



## eventrider23 (11 June 2010)

Have to say thank you for that list - gives me a good starting point for my filly as a 2 yr old altho bound to be many others by then!


----------



## ColourFan (11 June 2010)

You're welcome!  I am sure that there are others that may be included in the list as being homozygous tobiano but unfortunately this specific information is often missing on the stallions page.

Actually the list has about 20 stallions on it but only those mentioned above have confirmed colour and pattern DNA testing information.

Wat you most definitely have to take into consideration when choosing a coloured stallion for a warmblood mare is of course whether or not the foal will be eligible for main book registration in the Warmblood Studbook of choice.   If you are happy to go with a sport registered stallion, go for it, the list has more candidates, but if you are looking for warmblood registration,then the list gets very very short.

If anyone is interested .... don't want to polute the topic ... I can provide more coloured stallion names but most are heterozygous for tobiano.


----------



## winchester (11 June 2010)

markvannunen said:



			Now...Chess is covering since 2007, where is his offspring!?
		
Click to expand...

THis is his offspring - and how delighted am i with him!!!!  Getting placed in Major county shows in the UK!!!


----------



## flyingcolors (11 June 2010)

Chess is NOT breeding since 2007. 

He was going for approval first, we do not breed before a stallion does not have a breeding license unlike you do. 

He went for training in 2008 in spring and entered the performence test in July 2008 where he was until September 2008. Since the performance test was of more interest than making money first he was not heavily promoted in 2008, so only two mare owners ordered semen, one in England and the resulting 2009 foal you have just seen and one in Germany and it was presented to the Oldenburg Verband and went premium awarded which is not easy for a coloured foal and Oldenburg Association!

In 2009 as everyone knows, I fell into the hands of a fraudster and only a few mares could get semen. One mare died at giving birth unfortunately - foal and mare lost for the breeder as their replacement vet was not able to do a cesearienne (spelling?) - and most breeders do not send pictures at all. 

To avoid this happening and since there are now a good number of mares in foal - he is at a top AI center that is also the AI center of Brookhouse Stud which is certainly well known to all in UK - we will have a competition up for the best tobiano foal by him in 2011 and that mare gets a free return. I hope this will make mare owners want to send in pictures of their foals and to also take good ones as most people are not good with picture taking and I would rather not have pictures up than bad pictures!


----------



## angrovestud (11 June 2010)

ColourFan said:



			For those interested ... a -by no means complete! - list of known homozygous tobiano stallions:

Australia:  
TomTom (What's Colour) = homoz. Black AND Tobiano

Belgium:
Cesaer Ter Linder = homoz. Black AND Tobiano (www.hoeveterlinden.be)

France:
Zorro van Erpekom  = homoz. Black AND Tobiano (http://monsite.orange.fr/zorro.van.erpekom/page1.html)

England:
Goshka Ringo = homoz. Black AND Tobiano
Sempers Spirit = homoz. Black AND Tobiano

Germany:
Chess M = homoz. Black AND Tobiano

the Netherlands:
Colorance = homoz. Tobiano, heteroz. Black/Red AND Agouti
James Bont Junior = homoz. Tobiano AND Red (chestnut) AND homoz. reces. Agouti (aa)

U.S.A.:
Sempatico = homoz. Black AND Tobiano
State of the Art = homoz. Tobiano, ?? Black

There are however quite a few heterozygous tobiano available.
		
Click to expand...

England 
Angrove Spotted Dick TO TO DNA tested and a pedigree he is not names so does ot appear on Ned by name


----------



## markvannunen (11 June 2010)

winchester said:



			THis is his offspring - and how delighted am i with him!!!!  Getting placed in Major county shows in the UK!!!






Click to expand...

Yes, very nice, out of a MIchelangelo mare. And as far as I know the only one in the UK.


----------



## S_N (11 June 2010)

markvannunen said:



			Yes, very nice, out of a MIchelangelo mare. And as far as I know the only one in the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Which is exactly what FC just said!


----------



## S_N (11 June 2010)

Mark/Flyingcolours et al, I think enough has been aired on this thread. The personal and unpleasant tone and deviation from the intent of the original posters question is not necessary and it is a shame that such grudges are being borne so publicly.


----------



## eventrider23 (11 June 2010)

That Chess/Michealangelo yearling is stunning - you have every right to be incredibly proud


----------



## flyingcolors (11 June 2010)

I think my posts have always been very civil and without any attacks. 

However it must be allowed to tell the truth if someone spreads lies and btw it is not allowed to post pictures that belong to others as that is copyright infringement. 

It is a well known fact that Mr van Nunen has to always spread his venom and to speak bad about other peoples stallions. He is doing this not only here but in many forums and many people are mad over his way of slandering other stallions.


----------



## markvannunen (11 June 2010)

flyingcolors said:



			I think my posts have always been very civil and without any attacks. 

However it must be allowed to tell the truth if someone spreads lies and btw it is not allowed to post pictures that belong to others as that is copyright infringement. 

It is a well known fact that Mr van Nunen has to always spread his venom and to speak bad about other peoples stallions. He is doing this not only here but in many forums and many people are mad over his way of slandering other stallions.
		
Click to expand...

It's good to know that a lot of people know how you really are Gwen.
When someone, not only me, says something about your horses you always attack the person who tells it but never give arguments why something is not the way people tell it.


----------

