# how do we prove ownership?



## cailleag2 (8 August 2011)

I have had horses stolen but police in Lincs wont give crime no.They say there is no way to prove ownership and all a criminal needs to do is say it is theirs,or that you owe money.no proof needed!!!I have bill of sale,V.I.P. folks get a bill of sale always.I have passport and freeze mark papers.Horses are chipped.What more can i do.Lawyer says we have little chance of winning in court and may take  £10,000!!!We owners need protection in law as criminals know that sales and slaughter houses still repassport.No creature is safe.


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## Cuffey (8 August 2011)

Do you have the passports for stolen horses if so enter details on 
http://www.nedonline.co.uk/public/lostStolen.aspx

You will probably have to buy a little credit if you are not already a member.

There are 4 Horsewatch contacts for Lincolnshire please ask for help from someone who has an understanding of horse problems
Lincolnshire Police

Nicole Page    nicole.page@lincs.pnn.police.uk or 01205 312375
Heather Roach   heather.roach@lincs.pnn.police.uk
Jez Dodd   jeremy.dodd@lincs.pnn.police.uk
Ben Stambridge   ben.stanbridge@lincs.pnn.police.uk


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## fatpiggy (8 August 2011)

I always thought date-stamped photographs could be useful


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## Horseantics (8 August 2011)

I have the bill of sale and every dentist report, livery bill, vet bill etc., just collect everything and put them in a folder, have owned my horse for 11 years, plus numerous photos.


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## somethingillremember (8 August 2011)

All the bills , photos etc only prove you had the horse at that time .... it still doesnt prove ownership . My friend had her horse sold whilst on loan so i know just what the Police and Courts said and the hoops she had to jump through to get her horse back. Its a dreadful situation to be in . I think, as fatpiggy says , the passport should have a photo as well as the drawn bit and description , and it should be confirmed by Vet or similar each year , say when you get your jabs done but it would also have to be confirmed to 1 authority ( like a DVLA of the horse world not all the differnt society's you can register with). I know it would cost but if it proves ownership and gets your horse back or stops worse .. I'd pay .


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## photo_jo (9 August 2011)

cailleag2 said:



			I have had horses stolen but police in Lincs wont give crime no.They say there is no way to prove ownership and all a criminal needs to do is say it is theirs,or that you owe money.no proof needed!!!I have bill of sale,V.I.P. folks get a bill of sale always.I have passport and freeze mark papers.Horses are chipped.What more can i do.Lawyer says we have little chance of winning in court and may take  £10,000!!!We owners need protection in law as criminals know that sales and slaughter houses still repassport.No creature is safe.
		
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Firstly I am very sorry to hear it and do hope you manage to get them back

Secondly how do they say we are supposed to prove a horse is ours?


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## fatpiggy (9 August 2011)

Hey Something - my passport DOES contain a photo - I took it very carefully to show her freezemark which I have the papers for showing I had it done.  As you say, all passports should have them.  Is a bill of sale genuine though?  Many people just have literally a signed slip of paper. Anyone could write it out and backdate it at to anything.


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## Tinseltoes (9 August 2011)

My bill of sale is signed and wittnessed,so no probs there,total of 3 signitures.


Surely your farrier and vet could be proof also???????


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## cailleag2 (10 August 2011)

yes,but police say all proof that I once owned him not that i do now.Discovered all the theif has to do is say that you sold it or that you owe them money.They do not have to prove it


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## cailleag2 (10 August 2011)

photo_jo said:



			Firstly I am very sorry to hear it and do hope you manage to get them back

Secondly how do they say we are supposed to prove a horse is ours?

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that is exactly the problem.Basically police dont want to know.we need a government ruling to protect us


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## cailleag2 (10 August 2011)

somethingillremember said:



			All the bills , photos etc only prove you had the horse at that time .... it still doesnt prove ownership . My friend had her horse sold whilst on loan so i know just what the Police and Courts said and the hoops she had to jump through to get her horse back. Its a dreadful situation to be in . I think, as fatpiggy says , the passport should have a photo as well as the drawn bit and description , and it should be confirmed by Vet or similar each year , say when you get your jabs done but it would also have to be confirmed to 1 authority ( like a DVLA of the horse world not all the differnt society's you can register with). I know it would cost but if it proves ownership and gets your horse back or stops worse .. I'd pay .
		
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so would I.could your friend tell me what she did to get horse back.huge thanks


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## LittleBlackMule (11 August 2011)

fatpiggy said:



			Hey Something - my passport DOES contain a photo - I took it very carefully to show her freezemark which I have the papers for showing I had it done.
		
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Is it part of the passport document, or just one you've added yourself?

The Donkey Breed Society will laminate a photo into their passports, which is great for us donkey and mule owners, but I haven't found anyone who does it for horses.


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## Cuffey (11 August 2011)

Veteran Horse Society have pictures in their passports
http://www.veteran-horse-society.co.uk/VHSpassports.html


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## Tinseltoes (11 August 2011)

Surely the police would ask the so called new owner to prove they have a bill of sale????? Seems odd they dont want to take it further?????????? Sounds like someone who is only interested in the speeders etc and not doing his job properly.


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## fatpiggy (11 August 2011)

LittleBlackMule - the photo is part of the passport (but not laminated in so could be swapped) - there is a dedicated page for it. I did it through the Veteran Horse Soc.


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## Lizzie66 (11 August 2011)

cailleag2 said:



			yes,but police say all proof that I once owned him not that i do now.Discovered all the theif has to do is say that you sold it or that you owe them money.They do not have to prove it
		
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On this basis if I obtain the keys to your car and drive off with it, I could just claim that you sold it to me !

I would suggest making a complaint at the police station to the Desk Sergeant and if he can't/won't help then ask to speak to the Chief Inspector. If you still get no joy make a formal complaint and go see your MP.

It should be on the person who now claims they own your horse to show some supporting evidence to the fact that they have bought the horse ie passport, genuine independent witness (ie not a friend they took with them), evidence that the horse was at least advertised for sale, if they can't provide any of this then the horse should be returned to you pending further investigation.


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## Tinseltoes (11 August 2011)

Lizzie66 said:



			On this basis if I obtain the keys to your car and drive off with it, I could just claim that you sold it to me !

I would suggest making a complaint at the police station to the Desk Sergeant and if he can't/won't help then ask to speak to the Chief Inspector. If you still get no joy make a formal complaint and go see your MP.

It should be on the person who now claims they own your horse to show some supporting evidence to the fact that they have bought the horse ie passport, genuine independent witness (ie not a friend they took with them), evidence that the horse was at least advertised for sale, if they can't provide any of this then the horse should be returned to you pending further investigation.
		
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Totally agree with above.Sounds like a NEED FOR A SERIOUS COMPLAINT to be made.


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## darkhorse123 (12 August 2011)

This is just why i paid for my boy by direct bank transfer, funds went from my account into hers electronically thus traceable - noone can argue with that. 
I also kept the original advert that shows i put into her bank exactly what she was asking for - so sad though when you cant trust people


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## Tinseltoes (13 August 2011)

darkhorse123 said:



			This is just why i paid for my boy by direct bank transfer, funds went from my account into hers electronically thus traceable - noone can argue with that. 
I also kept the original advert that shows i put into her bank exactly what she was asking for - so sad though when you cant trust people 

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Thats a good way to prove ownership.I have a signed reciept witnessed by another on there 3 signitures in total,so she couldnt come back and say hes hers.


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## LittleBlackMule (13 August 2011)

Those of you in the know, can somebody please explain to me why the passport isn't proof of ownership, when on the front page it says " signature of OWNER" and "OWNERS nationality", then further in there is a page titled "OWNERS details" ...?

If this is a legal document, and it has sections titled owners details etc., why is it not valid proof?


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## Tinseltoes (14 August 2011)

It amazes me how many ponies are being re passported.My loan pony isnt microchipped,all I have is a loan agreement,no passport. Goodness knows how her so called owner would prove ownership as she reckons she got the ponies as payment for grazing monies owed and even if really is/was registered with the welsh pony society doesnt mean tiddly squat either.I think passports should be proof of ownership but alas there not.


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## timthearab (17 August 2011)

The whole system stinks with regards to us horse owners.
When my Tim was missing, i contacted police, they wanted a copy of the original receipt for his purchase which i provided...
The passport was still in my name when he was found and as i also notified the passport agency that i DID NOT sign any change of ownership form, they were also told not to change the passport if it was sent back to them....
You need to DEMAND that the police take on the case as it IS criminal and NOT civil, theft has taken place and theft IS criminal...  The oly trouble with the police is they need to be pushed evry step of the way!!!!  I hope this is of help. Im only speaking from experiance (TimTheArab) x  Good luck :-(


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## Tinseltoes (18 August 2011)

timthearab said:



			The whole system stinks with regards to us horse owners.
When my Tim was missing, i contacted police, they wanted a copy of the original receipt for his purchase which i provided...
The passport was still in my name when he was found and as i also notified the passport agency that i DID NOT sign any change of ownership form, they were also told not to change the passport if it was sent back to them....
You need to DEMAND that the police take on the case as it IS criminal and NOT civil, theft has taken place and theft IS criminal...  The oly trouble with the police is they need to be pushed evry step of the way!!!!  I hope this is of help. Im only speaking from experiance (TimTheArab) x  Good luck :-(
		
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Have you got TIM back yet?????


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## cailleag2 (24 August 2011)

thank you,i keep trying but no response yet.the police just refuse to issue numbers or bother.so glad you got your boy back


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## cailleag2 (24 August 2011)

thank you so much,yes i have the passports.I will contact everyone today.huge thanks


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## cailleag2 (24 August 2011)

yes whole situation a mess that government needs to fix


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## cailleag2 (24 August 2011)

yes so would i great idea


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## cailleag2 (24 August 2011)

they dont!!!!we need to write to MPs and get this sorted


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## OWLIE185 (24 August 2011)

If you are a Gold Member of the BHS then you will be able to get advice from a specialist equine solicitor on how to proceed to get your horse back.  If you are not a member then I suggest that you join and make use of their legal service.


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## cailleag2 (1 September 2011)

thank you.I have just taken your advice,huge thanks


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