# Who went to Hartpury?



## cruiseline (29 January 2012)

OK so who went to Hartpury and what were your thoughts on the stallions presented?

I have heard glowing reports about Don VHP and Cooper Van De Heffinckm, also some not so glowing reports about others.

Thoughts please people


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## TheMule (29 January 2012)

I went and had a super time watching the SJ and eventing stallions. I made tonnes of notes on all I saw, let me know if you want to know about any specifics....

Cooper V D Heffinck was the horse of the night for me- my god he can jump, he cleared the top of the wings with literally feet to spare and found it all so easy.

Don VHP also made it look so easy- fantastic level headed horse with a really nice attitude and tonnes of scope

Both sadly too big for my mare but I did really like Cash Point (he's quite buzzy under saddle but sweet as anything in the stable) and Quinn who just had a wonderful calm attitude and a super jump- took it all in his stride


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## mellissa (29 January 2012)

Blimey I had no idea cooper was there.  He is one I have been watching for some time. Is he in the uk for a bit then?


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## LilMissy (29 January 2012)

I couldnt go unfortunately, family emergency just as I was about to leave 

Anybody got any opinions on Mr Big Cat and Wish Upon A Star?


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## LEC (29 January 2012)

With Mr Big Cat just look at his BE record first. If you want to use a stallion who is ridden by a world class pro who has had 2 horse falls. Plus he has no stock on the ground.


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## RedRum13 (29 January 2012)

Went to college there.. worked on the stud... they have have some fab stallions! All are worth looking into more, they all produce lovely foals! Fell in love with a few.. lucky I'm not a rich girl or I would have brought quite a few home!


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## Partoow (30 January 2012)

I was there for the dressage part of the day, proably a bit boring fir you jumping and eventing types 
;-) so very interesting horses , some I though a little ordinary , not sure what they would have to give in terms of type and movement but others were outstanding.
Temperament is to me vital and there again were some really special ones.
I'm afraid I'm not a fan if the stallions that stand at  Hartbury , for reasons above 
I was disappointed not to see Future Illusion under saddle?
Especially when the three year old Super Tramp was ridden having only been broken a few weeks!


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## cruiseline (30 January 2012)

Unfortunately I could not get over to see, but I must say lesleypg, Claire commented on how Garuda K has improved since the last time she saw him out, which was a couple of years ago. So much more strength behind the saddle and a super active hind leg.

She also loved Meadow Studs new pony stallion, what an asset he is going to be for UK sports pony breeders. She missed seeing Cash Point, but she had seen him out recently at a show, and loves him.

She also said that Catherston Springsteen's canter pirouette was simply stunning, I can't wait to see him at SSGB.


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## cruiseline (30 January 2012)

Sorry that should say the stallion 'Surprise' had the best canter pirouette of the day. I mixed up the notes I had received ooops


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## LynneB (30 January 2012)

there is a post on FB from Future Illusion's owner saying he had an allergic reaction to something and came out in spots all over.  They had the emergency vet to him who gave him a jab but it didn't work in time, so they had to show him inhand instead of ridden as the rash was also under his saddle and girth areas.  He is at SSGB this coming weekend though and hopefully all cleared up.  Such a shame when you drive them that far to be seen though.


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## cruiseline (30 January 2012)

I wonder if they had used some of that show sheen stuff on him in his preparation, I have one horse that comes up in huge welts if he goes anywhere near it. It is a really shame, but as you said LynneB he will be at Addington next weekend.


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## welshone (30 January 2012)

Future Illusion was definitely being ridden in the warm up as I saw him! Don't know why he then went in inhand.


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## Cherrygarden (30 January 2012)

It says again on FB that they tried him in the warm up but he was clearly uncomfortable so they decided not to stress him further and showed him in hand instead. His owner also says if she had been planning to show in hand she would have made sure she was fitter : ).
Lesleypg I would like to hear about the dressage stallions and your thoughts if and when you feel like typing and does anyone know any more about the video that was possibly in the pipeline of all the stallions?


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## TheMule (30 January 2012)

LilMissy said:



			I couldnt go unfortunately, family emergency just as I was about to leave 

Anybody got any opinions on Mr Big Cat and Wish Upon A Star?
		
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Mr Big Cat went nicely, he a good athletic sort with a scopey jump but I also wouldnt use him until he's more proven in competition.

WUAS is one I always like but he can just be a bit looky, he has that warmblood half a milisecond's momentary hesitation at times- I've seen that cost him a couple of competitions as he has gone to almost stop at ditches/ water trays. He moves nicely, if not extravagantly, and has scope.

I saw Future Illusion in the stable just as they were tacking up and he was covered in lumps, I think it was perhaps the bedding.

Romulus went superbly on the flat for a stallion only coming 3 and under saddle a month- what a lovely natural shape and so level headed in that atmosphere. Showy movement- like a section B not a mini warmblood. He was trying to leap in with Cash Point in the stables though!!!


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## eventrider23 (30 January 2012)

Huge shame about Future Illusion but his owner said yesterday that it was all cleared up thanks to injection by morning and so he will be ready to roll at SSGB this coming weekend.  They have no idea what caused it and wondered if it was a reaction to haylage as was a different make to what he has at stud but just don't know.


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## Partoow (30 January 2012)

Ok , firstly when I say old fashioned it is not a negative term so think classic and you know what I mean!
So I liked the stamp and quality as well as the rideability of Keystone Rhondeo , Woodlander Rockstar is a very fluent moving horse with nice limbs both of these horses are great more classic types
I think when looking at stallions its important to not look at it purely as a 'sport horse' but what it will bring in terms of bloodline to your mare and how that works with her strengths and weaknesses 

Treliver Decanter had come on so much under his new rider a much much better representation if what the horse has to offer but it is HOT!! The DiMaggio has much to bring to the table but sometimes they are hot!
Would like to mention Garuda K 
I first saw him 3 yrs ago and loved him but did not like his production under saddle , I've always lived The Trakhner breed and particularly that bloodline
He is a truely genuine horse , sound in body and mind which is evident from the improvements he's made in a relatively short period of time. 
I have another horse in at the moment from a similar sire line and the type is clear again super character he's Oldenburg withDonnerhall so so obviously Trakhner can be used to modernise but keep rideability if you choose the right Trakhner !!!

Springsteen looked good , always been one of my more favourite Catherstone sires
Frankly Sugar is a nice dressage horse not enough 'stallion' about him for me. 
A good stallion must clearly be that , he can be pretty but he must stand out as male and a few didn't do that for me
Sad about Future Illusion because that showing did him no good. It would have been better to not show him in that situation as he looked unsettled and not very compliant. With his excellent but often unpredictable bloodlines I would worry as to temperament , no doubt he is a lovely stamp , I hope he had a better time at Addington!!


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## oldywoldy (30 January 2012)

Future Illusion - you need to look at his event record the same as Mr Big Cat.  If these horses are being marketed as Event Stallions they should have a good record at all levels. Why use an unproven horse that has a poor record. They need to be good at all disciplines good dressage, bold clear XC and consistent clears SJ. Wish Upon a Star is really proving to be an Advanced success and  Brief Encounter and Jigilo have both gone Advanced and they are both by Jumbo who is the best event stallion in the world! As far as I am concerned! Temperament is also paramount for stallions and they also have to have that wow factor or they should not still be entire.


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## LilMissy (30 January 2012)

oldywoldy said:



			Future Illusion - you need to look at his event record the same as Mr Big Cat.  If these horses are being marketed as Event Stallions they should have a good record at all levels. Why use an unproven horse that has a poor record. They need to be good at all disciplines good dressage, bold clear XC and consistent clears SJ. Wish Upon a Star is really proving to be an Advanced success and  Brief Encounter and Jigilo have both gone Advanced and they are both by Jumbo who is the best event stallion in the world! As far as I am concerned! Temperament is also paramount for stallions and they also have to have that wow factor or they should not still be entire.
		
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Firstly I think that relatively speaking these two are fairly young stallions. 

Future Illusions owner is very open in that she will NOT overface her young horse for the sake of public opinion. I would actually be satisified with his eventing record at this stage as although not competed that much and HC due to his rider's higher level, he has performed consistantly and sufficiently for a rising eight year old (DOB 2004) and bearing in mind that he had a serious injury last year. I understand that he has been competing pure dressage at the moment until he is completely healed. I would be interested to find out how he is getting along. 

I have seen him elsewhere and do think that he has the 'wow' factor but seems he was having an off day at Hartpury! 

Mr Big Cat is the same age as FI but was only imported in 2009. So he would be coming into his third year in the country. If you had been riding your horse for one/two years at what level would you be expecting him to be competing? As for the falls - they do happen to everyone, rider error, weather conditions etc.  Admittedly I havent looked at his record yet so shall toddle off to do so now! 

I would be interested to know what percentage of event stallions sires have 'competed to a high level' and been consistant in all three phases as well as having excellent temperament, perfect conformation and 'stallion presence' (which I think is a subjective statement anyway as discussed in previous threads re gradings etc! Plus everyone likes something different so that also needs to be taken into account.) Oh and the ability to pass all of these angel like qualities onto thier offspring regardless of the mare and upbringing!!! Quite an ask?

I was interested to know how Mr BC was ridden and how he dealt with the atmosphere at the show.  I also wanted others impressions about his paces and jumping ability 'on the day'. 

I agree that Jumbo and his offspring have done well but dont necessarily suit the mare I am looking to breed.

The high percentage of warmblood in Wish Upon A Stars breeding is what has made me question him for my personal breeding programme and as his first foal crops are not yet undersaddle it would also be difficult to know if he is passing on his abilities.  So again I was just looking for others opinions of how he went on the day.

PS are you from Grafham Stud??


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## TheMule (30 January 2012)

LilMissy said:



			I was interested to know how Mr BC was ridden and how he dealt with the atmosphere at the show.  I also wanted others impressions about his paces and jumping ability 'on the day'.
		
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Mr BC was hammered into the arena at a rapid pace, pinged round in a smart, loose moving trot, I felt the canter was a bit more ordinary, with a tendency to go 4 time when collected back. He had a nice athletic jump, though perhaps not textbook neat and tidy. I did like him, he has a lot of quality about him, he was obedient and seemed nice tempered but I didn't see him outside the ring


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## seabsicuit2 (30 January 2012)

Any thoughts on take it 2 the limit and Ramiro B?


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## TheMule (30 January 2012)

seabsicuit2 said:



			Any thoughts on take it 2 the limit and Ramiro B?
		
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TI2L- nice mover, good on the flat and very sweet natured. I was interested to see his jump as he has a tendancy to have poles down SJ, he was a bit tappy but nothing dramatically bad. He did have a major strop about jumping one of the xc fences though- refused it the first time then would not go anywhere near it- stopped and spun 5 strides out!

Ramiro B did not inspire me at all, though he had a nicely shaped neck and moved well when sparked up a bit- was ordinary until he spooked at something and showed off a lovely suspension for a few strides.  They had Cooley's Master Class along to show off the offspring who I thought was very common- tapped every single fence and looked like an irish bog pony! He's got a very decent BE record at novice level though so guess that shows my ability to judge a horse!


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## seabsicuit2 (30 January 2012)

Ah thats interesting thank you- Seem some amazing progeny by R.B- Buck Davidson has one that is a really wow jumper & takes Buck round the biggest courses with no help from the rider!

TI2TL sounds nice, think he was ridden by a junior rider& it must be very hard for a junior to take a ride over from the professionals, it does sound like he had a proper tantrum tho!


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## TheMule (30 January 2012)

seabsicuit2 said:



			TI2TL sounds nice, think he was ridden by a junior rider& it must be very hard for a junior to take a ride over from the professionals, it does sound like he had a proper tantrum tho!
		
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The rider was excellent- a really top class young jockey. TI2L was just having none of it at this particular fence- wouldnt worry me unduly, he has a pretty faultless xc record at top level!


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## LilMissy (30 January 2012)

TheMule said:



			Mr BC was hammered into the arena at a rapid pace, pinged round in a smart, loose moving trot, I felt the canter was a bit more ordinary, with a tendency to go 4 time when collected back. He had a nice athletic jump, though perhaps not textbook neat and tidy. I did like him, he has a lot of quality about him, he was obedient and seemed nice tempered but I didn't see him outside the ring
		
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Many thanks! 

Oh, just as a comparison to some of the other stallions does anyone know what Mr BC stud fee is? Couldnt see it on website


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## oldywoldy (30 January 2012)

LilMissy said:



			Firstly I think that relatively speaking these two are fairly young stallions. 

Future Illusions owner is very open in that she will NOT overface her young horse for the sake of public opinion. I would actually be satisified with his eventing record at this stage as although not competed that much and HC due to his rider's higher level, he has performed consistantly and sufficiently for a rising eight year old (DOB 2004) and bearing in mind that he had a serious injury last year. I understand that he has been competing pure dressage at the moment until he is completely healed. I would be interested to find out how he is getting along. 

I have seen him elsewhere and do think that he has the 'wow' factor but seems he was having an off day at Hartpury! 

Mr Big Cat is the same age as FI but was only imported in 2009. So he would be coming into his third year in the country. If you had been riding your horse for one/two years at what level would you be expecting him to be competing? As for the falls - they do happen to everyone, rider error, weather conditions etc.  Admittedly I havent looked at his record yet so shall toddle off to do so now! 

I would be interested to know what percentage of event stallions sires have 'competed to a high level' and been consistant in all three phases as well as having excellent temperament, perfect conformation and 'stallion presence' (which I think is a subjective statement anyway as discussed in previous threads re gradings etc! Plus everyone likes something different so that also needs to be taken into account.) Oh and the ability to pass all of these angel like qualities onto thier offspring regardless of the mare and upbringing!!! Quite an ask?

I was interested to know how Mr BC was ridden and how he dealt with the atmosphere at the show.  I also wanted others impressions about his paces and jumping ability 'on the day'. 

I agree that Jumbo and his offspring have done well but dont necessarily suit the mare I am looking to breed.

The high percentage of warmblood in Wish Upon A Stars breeding is what has made me question him for my personal breeding programme and as his first foal crops are not yet undersaddle it would also be difficult to know if he is passing on his abilities.  So again I was just looking for others opinions of how he went on the day.

PS are you from Grafham Stud?? 

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Nope but I have been using Jumbo since he was 3!


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## starryeyes (30 January 2012)

Mr Big Cats stud fee is £500 LFG.

I'm seriously considering using him on my 3/4 bred mare this year but i'm browsing to see who else is out there before any decisions are made.

I think if you're looking to breed an eventer he will add the speed and injection of TB into the mix.  My only doubts are that he isn't "stallion" enough and is quite an ordinary horse, nice but nothing overly special that really makes you go 'wow'.

I didn't see him in stables & i have to confess i couldn't overly remember him the next day, but thats possibly because nothing majorly stood out that would suit my mare.

My pick of the day (and i'm an eventer) would be Garuda K.  His rider obviously adores him & he's improved by miles over the past few years.  A really nice moving, 'typey' horse.


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## Hurry Up (30 January 2012)

For those who could not attend:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TZyM-w8z8Q


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## Molly01 (30 January 2012)

Would agree with the comment about Garuda K he has really matured since I last saw him two years ago at Hartpury. I thought he had real wow factor and his extravagant front leg seems to have been toned down slightly and there seems to be a better balance between the front and hind leg action. Another stallion that caught my eye was Wenckstern, I liked him a lot.


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## oldywoldy (31 January 2012)

Was Albaran not there?  He is Thoroughbred and is meant to be very nice - licensed with
several breed societies.  He may be at Addington this weekend. There are so few TB's who are proven and are not NH and therefore sensible stud fees for sport horse breeders. Ken  Rehill had one but dont know if he still has it?


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## eventrider23 (31 January 2012)

Albaran and Watermill Swatch (both TB) will be at Addington this weekend.


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## rascal29 (31 January 2012)

Revolution fully TB graded SHB(GB) and his son Sir suave 15/16th TB will both be at Addington on sunday.


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## welshone (31 January 2012)

lesleypg said:



			I was there for the dressage part of the day, proably a bit boring fir you jumping and eventing types 
;-) so very interesting horses , some I though a little ordinary , not sure what they would have to give in terms of type and movement but others were outstanding.
Temperament is to me vital and there again were some really special ones.
I'm afraid I'm not a fan if the stallions that stand at  Hartbury , for reasons above 
I was disappointed not to see Future Illusion under saddle?
Especially when the three year old Super Tramp was ridden having only been broken a few weeks!
		
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I own a stallion that stands at Hartpury and while I realise this is your personal opinion I don't think you should discredit stallions that have been approved for breeding on a public forum.
My young stallion (Sandro's Dancer) has an outstanding performance record for anyone to look up on the BD website. He is 8 this year and will be making his PSG debut later in the year. His oldest progeny are 3 this time so are as yet unproven but are looking very exciting with his excellent hindleg and uphill way of going. As for temperament, my 7yr old daughter can groom him and has also sat on him bareback in the stable, he has travelled in a trailer alongside a gelding and I have ridden him in a field with only a strip of electric tape between a mare and foal in the field next door. I think that makes for an outstanding temperament.


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## Thistle (31 January 2012)

For those questioning Future Illusions temperament. I've met him on a few occasions, both at events (one of which I had a mare in season) and at Jeanette Brakewells. Every time he has been pleasant and well mannered, he is pretty laid back about things, on more than one occasion he was on the lorry with another stallion.

He accident was very unfortunate (he got badly cast) and has possibly terminated his career as an eventer.

I used him on an event pony mare and have produced what seems to be a nice colt (should make 15.2/3). He seems quick to learn and knows his boundaries, although the mare does have an exceptional temperament.

I chose FI, mainly because I wanted to refine the mare (she is largely native) and I wanted to add height but not too much. I wasn't too worried about his event record (he was only 6 when I chose him) as I felt I was buying his genes rather than the stallion himself. His bloodlines are familiar to me as I also have an Opposition mare.

I'm hoping to get to SSGB this weekend, starting the process of window shopping for something to suit said Oppy mare as unfortunately the pony mare developed ligament problems in the very late stages of pregnancy despite retiring from eventing aged 16 fit and well. It's unlikely her legs will cope well with the additional weight of a pregnancy, coupled with the slackening affect of the hormones prior to birth. Shame really as she has given un a great foal and is a good mum.


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## Partoow (31 January 2012)

Welshone , I expressed my opinion which I'm am well within my rights to do
I said nothing that was derogatory, or unreasonable while your horse is a nice chap and a good competition horsey don't doubt , there were a couple of other factored that I feel , I did not point out any one stallions that was not fair but beings as you pushed the point I will say for me your horse is not masculine enough.
Like I said a nice sport horse but not type enough.
but like I put it in my post that's for me and believe it or not I'm am allowed to have that opinion .


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## JanetGeorge (31 January 2012)

lesleypg said:



			. 

Frankly Sugar is a nice dressage horse not enough 'stallion' about him for me. 
A good stallion must clearly be that , he can be pretty but he must stand out as male and a few didn't do that for me
Sad about Future Illusion because that showing did him no good. It would have been better to not show him in that situation as he looked unsettled and not very compliant. With his excellent but often unpredictable bloodlines I would worry as to temperament , no doubt he is a lovely stamp , I hope he had a better time at Addington!!
		
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Mmmm - those two remarks would appear to be rather contradictory!  So Franklyn Sugar had not enough 'stallion' (I assume that means he was behaving beautifully rather than standing on his hind legs displaying his 'charms'.)  But Future Illusion can't be forgiven for being 'unsettled and not very compliant' when he was obviously uncomfortable with an allergic reaction!!

Me - I'll go for a stallion that is mannered enough to be mistaken for a gelding every time!  Temperament is THE most important trait - and from everything I've heard of the horse, his temperament is superb!


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## Whizz105 (31 January 2012)

So Lesleypg a stallion that performs, looks great and has excellent manners is not "man" enough?! 

You also mentioned other stallions being too hot?! ...confused by your post. what are you looking for exactly?


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## JanetGeorge (31 January 2012)

lesleypg said:



			Welshone , I expressed my opinion which I'm am well within my rights to do
I said nothing that was derogatory, or unreasonable while your horse is a nice chap and a good competition horsey don't doubt , there were a couple of other factored that I feel , I did not point out any one stallions that was not fair but beings as you pushed the point I will say for me your horse is not masculine enough.
Like I said a nice sport horse but not type enough.
but like I put it in my post that's for me and believe it or not I'm am allowed to have that opinion .
		
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Yes, you're entitled to your opinion - but it would help if it was grammatical!

And what IS this obsession with 'masculine'?  What does it MEAN (other than that the horse has two testicles and can 'rise to the occasion'?

In my view, a very masculine stallion is one who is randy, high spirited, possibly aggressive - NOT traits I select for!


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## Whizz105 (31 January 2012)

JG we must of been thinking the same thing at the same time!


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## welshone (31 January 2012)

OK, I get it........because my boy has a super temperament he is not masculine enough?


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## JanetGeorge (31 January 2012)

welshone said:



			OK, I get it........because my boy has a super temperament he is not masculine enough?
		
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Not IMHO.  If the rest of your horse matches his super temprament, he is exactly the sort of stallion any SANE mare owner wants!


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## koeffee (31 January 2012)

LilMissy said:



			I couldnt go unfortunately, family emergency just as I was about to leave 

Anybody got any opinions on Mr Big Cat and Wish Upon A Star?
		
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Mr Big Cat is a lovely stamp of horse, like a refined warmblood type, didnt wow me jumping but after seeing the sjumpers 1st it was a tough act to follow!!


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## koeffee (31 January 2012)

LynneB said:



			there is a post on FB from Future Illusion's owner saying he had an allergic reaction to something and came out in spots all over.  They had the emergency vet to him who gave him a jab but it didn't work in time, so they had to show him inhand instead of ridden as the rash was also under his saddle and girth areas.  He is at SSGB this coming weekend though and hopefully all cleared up.  Such a shame when you drive them that far to be seen though.
		
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I saw him the stables, bless him he was covered from head to toe in spots!!! such a poppet in the stable though.


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## waterlands (31 January 2012)

Wow.. Surely the fact a stallion has such a superb temperament and is trainable is one of the most important factors when choosing a sire. 
So tbh i realy dnt see where you are coming from!! 
Also some Stallions dnt always compete due to other circumstances, however their progeny can speak high volumes for their ability to become top class sires.
So just think before you post comments that are actually quite offencive and upsetting to owners and breeders.
I have only ever commented twice in this forum, and sadly both times have been to very disheartening comments. Please praise the stallions we have in this country and as owners of british bred horses, we should be proud, and I for one hope that we keep producing level heading trainable horses, not ones that can noy be handled but look pretty!!!


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## koeffee (31 January 2012)

Frankly Sugar is a nice dressage horse not enough 'stallion' about him for me. 
A good stallion must clearly be that  said:
			
		


			He looked stallion enough for me when i saw him in the stable, i would also prefer a stallion who came out of the stable with manners and know he is out to be ridden and worked rather than jump around and be hung onto and lunged to settle him?? I know he would be on my list if a bred dressage horses.
		
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## Partoow (31 January 2012)

There were stallions that exhibited 'type' and managed to be well behaved rideable and have proven offspring ! 
Stallions have to be outstanding as they genetically have a huge influence , there are too many stallions that are good sport horses but not necessarily good progenators


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## koeffee (31 January 2012)

starryeyes said:



			Mr Big Cats stud fee is £500 LFG.

I'm seriously considering using him on my 3/4 bred mare this year but i'm browsing to see who else is out there before any decisions are made.

I think if you're looking to breed an eventer he will add the speed and injection of TB into the mix.  My only doubts are that he isn't "stallion" enough and is quite an ordinary horse, nice but nothing overly special that really makes you go 'wow'.

I didn't see him in stables & i have to confess i couldn't overly remember him the next day, but thats possibly because nothing majorly stood out that would suit my mare.

===================================================================

Mr Big Cat made me stop outside and look back, he was impressive coming out of the lorry, i love my warmbloods and i thought he was untill i saw who was on him, didnt overly shine once he was in the ring, to me he just settled to the job at hand and that was to work?
		
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## Martin Schleicher (31 January 2012)

I filled in for Sandro's Dancer's usual rider last minute and only sat on him twice before and thought what an absolute smashing stallion he is. He took to a different rider instantly and he was a joy to do. Yes, we did have some problems in the arena as he is usually worked in there without trade stands, lights etc and we all know what horses make of 'their' arena's being different...and they are not machines. As much as I do agree with everyone having their own opinions, I also second that we should appreciate the talent we have in this country. Not every stallion will suit every mare or 'owner' (for that matter) but I think we should look at the good in each one rather than JUST the negative. As a foreigner (from Germany) I am used to and was always told to look at positives in horses/stallions and I sometimes find that here in England a lot of people will only look at the negatives rather than the big picture


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## shirleyno2 (31 January 2012)

I was thinking of organising a bonkathon, we could have all the stallions booked for a collecting slot and judge how masculine they are! What do you think?
[Might be hard to work out the timetable, mine vary between 12 seconds and 15 minutes!!!


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## Avonbrook (31 January 2012)

shirleyno2 said:



			I was thinking of organising a bonkathon, we could have all the stallions booked for a collecting slot and judge how masculine they are! What do you think?
[Might be hard to work out the timetable, mine vary between 12 seconds and 15 minutes!!!
		
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Oh thankyou for that laugh!!!!

I am so very glad its not only me that's been getting confused about just what is being looked for.

As far as I can see these stallions are, with the possible exception of some of the youngsters, competition horses who are used to having to work and to concentrate on the job in hand - often in close proximity to other horses.  I would expect them, while under saddle and being asked to work, to concentrate on the job in hand.  And the ones I saw did just that.

Nor did it surprise me that some of the stallions who were shown in hand for their various reasons tended to be more on their toes.  They were not in quite such a clear cut "work" situation.

I don't see that as being a reflection on their masculinity.  And I'm not especially interested in overt machismo, in any species!


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## magic104 (31 January 2012)

Without jumping on any bandwagons, I saw Franklyn Sugar last year at Addington, he was far from ordinary.  He & Spirit were on my short list, both very very nice horses.  I felt that a stallion should have the wow factor, but that is only any good if he then passes on decent genes.  A stallion that lacked the "Wow" appeal to me that day, has had some very nice offspring, that is what counts.

Everyone is entitled to have an opinion, but sometimes we have to be prepared to eat our words!!  I will find out in about 6wks if I will be doing just that!


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## Harriephebs (31 January 2012)

I went to hartpury this weekend and i have to say how well behaved all the boys were and happy to say hello when we were walking around the stables. Not sure why people are putting stallions on a pedestal and expecting them to misbehave. Had a great day, lovely to chat to people and i think i have found my boy but i am not going to mention as i dont really want to hear peoples opinions or putting off.
We have some amazing stallions these days and i think we should support the breeders/owners not slate them!


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## JanetGeorge (31 January 2012)

shirleyno2 said:



			I was thinking of organising a bonkathon, we could have all the stallions booked for a collecting slot and judge how masculine they are! What do you think?
[Might be hard to work out the timetable, mine vary between 12 seconds and 15 minutes!!!
		
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I think you just made me waste a mouthful of VERY nice red - not what I'd normally use to clean my computer screen!


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## Martin Schleicher (31 January 2012)

Harriephebs said:



			I went to hartpury this weekend and i have to say how well behaved all the boys were and happy to say hello when we were walking around the stables. Not sure why people are putting stallions on a pedestal and expecting them to misbehave. Had a great day, lovely to chat to people and i think i have found my boy but i am not going to mention as i dont really want to hear peoples opinions or putting off.
We have some amazing stallions these days and i think we should support the breeders/owners not slate them!
		
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That's what it should all be about...a shop window for breeders choosing the right stallions for their mare....not other stallion owners or riders putting others down. Congratulations, Harriephebs, I am pleased you found the right one, whoever he may be


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## welshone (31 January 2012)

Harriephebs said:



			I went to hartpury this weekend and i have to say how well behaved all the boys were and happy to say hello when we were walking around the stables. Not sure why people are putting stallions on a pedestal and expecting them to misbehave. Had a great day, lovely to chat to people and i think i have found my boy but i am not going to mention as i dont really want to hear peoples opinions or putting off.
We have some amazing stallions these days and i think we should support the breeders/owners not slate them!
		
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Well said Harriephebs, I too saw lots of lovely stallions, would be very happy to have them in my stable and only wish I had a few more mares to cover!


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## shirleyno2 (31 January 2012)

JanetGeorge said:



			I think you just made me waste a mouthful of VERY nice red - not what I'd normally use to clean my computer screen!

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LOveryL!!


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## smccullo (31 January 2012)

lesleypg said:



			Welshone , I expressed my opinion which I'm am well within my rights to do
I said nothing that was derogatory, or unreasonable while your horse is a nice chap and a good competition horsey don't doubt , there were a couple of other factored that I feel , I did not point out any one stallions that was not fair but beings as you pushed the point I will say for me your horse is not masculine enough.
Like I said a nice sport horse but not type enough.
but like I put it in my post that's for me and believe it or not I'm am allowed to have that opinion .
		
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I'd just like to make it clear that Franlyn Sugar was 'manly enough' to cover both of my mares last year. They were both maiden mares and both took first time. I'd say that's quite 'manly'. My mares are fat, healthy and happy with foals due in April and May. Well done Frank!


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## Martin Schleicher (31 January 2012)

smccullo said:



			I'd just like to make it clear that Franlyn Sugar was 'manly enough' to cover both of my mares last year. They were both maiden mares and both took first time. I'd say that's quite 'manly'. My mares are fat, healthy and happy with foals due in April and May. Well done Frank!
		
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Again smccullo...well done for making a choice right for you and your girls...good luck and a much appreciated comment


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## Cherrygarden (1 February 2012)

If I am being honest when I am choosing stallions or helping other people choose stallions the bit that I always try and remove from the equation is the "something extra" or masculinity if you like of the stallion. Stallions will often look somehow more than they are because of this and it easy to overlook glitches in so many areas because of the presence and shine. I didn't go to Hartpury but for my money it is positive that these stallions seem to be able to come out and show the performance horse that mare owners get for their money as in reality most foals will not be kept as entire stallions so will not have that Xfactor passed down from their sire so they had better be passing down a trot for a 10 or massive, clean jump or the canter your mare really needs, solid joints or the whole package. The shiny stallioness is just there to help you spend your money and I don't really think is any indication of what else the stallion brings to the table in terms of progenation.


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## maestro (1 February 2012)

I would suggest how masculine a stallion is matters little compared to what it brings to the table genetically.  I suspect it is a bit of a myth that a stallion has to be a bit of a **** to be a good producer.  The stallion with the right brain can differentiate for work and play and the brain is a major part of what you are looking for in producing a sport horse or all alrounder.  You put any entire infront of a mare in season and I suspect they will be masculine enough


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## Ciss (1 February 2012)

There does seem to be a lot of confusion about what masculine means as an attribute for a stallion.

Experienced stallion graders who are used to looking at a wide range of stallions across a wide range of studbooks look for masculinity expressed visually and temperamentally in a number of ways, the relative importance of which differs according the type and discipline for which the stallion is intended / is competing.  They also recognise that some bloodlines -- however successful they are as sires -- do not actually look (or behave) in such an upfront macho way as others but are still very likely to have prepotence (hopefully positive) that is the real hallmark of a successful stallion.

As someone who sees rather more stallion candidates than most -- and who is asked that almost impossible question of their owners 'Will he pass?' quite frequently (to which I have to reply ' It depends on the inspecting judges on the day (plus any performance test requirements) and the current policy of the studbook' the one thing I do have to make clear to the owners is whether, bearing in mind the type / studbook / discipline of the stallion concerned he has the masculinity that the grading judges require. Bearing in mind that some breeds (esp Trakheners and their close relatives the Swedish Warmbloods) are late maturing (both physically and mentally) and tend to have 'prettier' head than other breeds, any assessment of them for masculinity has to take that into account and to my eyes Sandros Dancer (for instance) is well within the acceptable criteria, especially bearing in mind that he has Master blood in him plus a large dash of TB via Sandro Hit. Similarly, while some dressage-based studbooks place considerable emphasis on the amount of crest and well defined muscularity the stallion shows through forearm and stifle -- and TBH an great deal of huffing and puffing 'presence' -- this is not necessary for a showjumping stallion (who must remain calm in the collecting ring during endless jump offs to maintain his energy) such as a Selle Francais or the eventer, who will probably have more TB in his veins to meet the galloping demands of the discipline and will therefore certainly have less crest and less overt muscling than his dressage or showjumping counterparts. 

A further complication is that many of the top TB stallions show little of the warmblood type masculinity but a great deal of hot temperament so their stallion 'attitude' is certainly not in doubt. As a result, it  actually took the European warmblood studbooks quite a while to realise that TB stallions that did not conform to their existing visual concepts of masculinity could actually be very successful prepotent stallions. However, once they did take that on board they began to accept exactly the sort of TB stallions they needed to lighten / modernise their studbooks and that is when we all had to start to look to our laurels, especially the eventing breeders.  

So the lesson is, just becuiase the stallion doesn't look like a 'traditional' warmblood stallion (whatever that is) don't dismiss it without looking at the prepotency inherent in its own sire lines -- good stallions never come from stallion lines with poor prepotency -- and always bear in mind the market for which he is intended and the criteria of the studbook from which it comes.

One final point, the Futuity deliberately does not have a section for masculinity / feminity in its assessment criteria. This is becuase this attribute has little or no influence on performance (except that an unruly colt may well need to be gelded in order to perform in competition to the best of its physical ability) and masculinity and feminity are seen as important factors in studbook assessments FOR BREEDING and should therefore be left to them. OTOH, this can lead to confusion when a highly marked animal scores much less well in its grading or studbook assessment, but in such cases the conformation, paces etc assessents are usually pretty similar (ie high) but it is the masculinity / femininity score that lets the animal down in its grading. I have no problem with this as this supports the claims of the animal as a competition horse / pony (and as agood performance representative of its sire and dam) while emphasising the difference that marks out a potentially top class breeding animal from others of equal performance talent but less merit as a member of the breeding herd. 

To quite Dr Haring's words 'A stallion is a competition horse PLUS' and it is the plus (in all its different forms) that we are discussing here.


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## Maesfen (1 February 2012)

A very good sensible and realistic post Cherrygarden IMHO.  
Temperament and conformation are first for me every time but then I am not aiming at the professional rider unlike some breeders.  I'm not saying that's wrong, of course not, in Eothian's words, 'we should all reach for the stars' in our own fields but the trouble usually starts if the 'professional' horse does not live up to expectations and is put on general sale for an in the main, inexperienced public.


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## Cherrygarden (1 February 2012)

A stallion is a competition horse PLUS but as the plus is so subjective perhaps it is best left out. I wonder how femininity and masculinity are defined amongst horses, seems to me an unnecessary human element added on a day when those making the rules had little else to do because if I am honest that PLUS factor is evident in some of the ***** ponies that run the marshes. When you take them apart they are horrid but when they are out, being wild on a sunny day with a band of clumpy mares they are ***** stallions PLUS which is of no breeding value to anyone except the knacker man. I do know what you are saying and Lesleypg too, there are some stallions that just don't have the stallion spark but to make a comment like that about a graded stallion who has supposedly pleased the Grading judges just shows how subjective, personal and intangible the PLUS factor is and how little use it is in determining the usefulness of the stallion in question. I also think that it is something that possibly just doesn't really work over here. British stallions have to be family horses who can live at home, be managed by non professional owners, be turned out, ridden at all sorts of venues plus perform at competitions and occasionally now stallion shows. We don't yet have the money or set up country wide for most of them to be career stallions who live in gilded cages and can be that all man horse type that is so carefully sculpted and crafted on the continent. The type of stallions that work well over here are perhaps the ones you find in training yards abroad that will live and work around all sorts happily not the type that must live in Stallion barns and come out sparkly for special occasions. I also think the masculine type is being somewhat diluted across all performance studbooks by the rise of the modern, lighter sports horse type. Look at Woodlander Wavavoom(sp sorry) and Farouche just in pictures.If you didn't know, which one was the stallion or which one had more PLUS? Farouche I have seen in the flesh and Wavavoom only in pictures and videos but it is a hard call and no negative reflection on either horse which ever way you choose(please note I picked them as they are both orange with long legs, fab breeding and both although very young, somewhat proven as breeding horses as well as performance).


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## stoneybroke (1 February 2012)

Well said Harriephebs....I made some selections, spent quite a bit of money on semen and was hugely disappointed by some of the 'much hyped' horses who I saw for the first time.....that said I think I will keep my council on my choices and spare the feelings/increase the arrogance of some stallion owners and semen agents. A real good event though, well run and publicised with excellent commentary and some very insightful information from Lyn Crowden


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## koeffee (1 February 2012)

one thing i would be worried about re comments on franklyn sugar is if Lesleypg is an evaluater with the futurity she would hold it against a foal being by fs??


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## jamesmead (1 February 2012)

I cannot see how this could be viewed as slander; this stallion, and others, have been criticised on something impossible to pin down or adequately define; this may down to personal preference which is fair enough; but if the person holding this possibly baseless preference, this bias, is going to judge the offspring of these horses in a professional capacity, to ask whether this bias may carry over is a fair question, I think.

I found Ciss's post informed and interesting, but it leaves a question for me; if this masculinity, this stallion quality is not judged at the Futurity because the Futurity is concerned only with sporting potential, why is it necessary at all? How does it translate? Are the offspring of a "masculine" stallion better than those of a quieter lad? If so, how are they better? Or does it make no difference? Because here we have a nebulous quality which we cannot evaluate or measure with any degree of reliability. And we have (I think?) an evaluator "writing off" as stallion prospects - and therefore (as I think she felt Franklyn Sugar would be a good dressage horse in himself?) as breeding prospects, horses whom she feels do not display it. But if a horse without it would still be a good dressage horse - just not a stallion - and the aim of breeding is to have good dressage/competition horses, not stallions per se, then how does it matter at all? Maybe it is being confused with something else? Grit and courage and competitiveness, which I think you do need, but which you can also find in a gelding or a mare and which can be hidden behind a quiet exterior?


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## JanetGeorge (1 February 2012)

JohnBauer said:



			I agree that it is inadvisable for a evaluator to express personal opinions on an open breeding forum on the topic of stallions - because this is only asking for criticism but i think to imply that a certain evaluator would be biased in favour/or against a particular stallion before the event could be deemed as slanderous.
		
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I agree totally with your point on evaluators expressing personal opinions on stallions in an open forum - although I'd call it unforgivable rather than inadvisable.

But in view of the comments made by said evaluator, any suggestion that bias may be shown would NOT be defamatory IMHO - it would be 'fair comment'!


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## welshone (1 February 2012)

koeffee said:



			one thing i would be worried about re comments on franklyn sugar is if Lesleypg is an evaluater with the futurity she would hold it against a foal being by fs??
		
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I am planning to take a couple of my youngsters to the futurity this year but if Lesleypg is one of the evaluaters there then I think I may not bother in view of her comments on my stallion on this forum!


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## Alec Swan (1 February 2012)

lesleypg said:



			.......
Stallions have to be outstanding as they genetically have a huge influence , .......
		
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By _huge_,  would you say that you feel the stallion to be of greater,  or lesser influence than the dam?

Alec.


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## woodlander (1 February 2012)

Here goes! First of all may I say that I am very relieved to see some feedback on the event which was the best attended ever. It was very quiet over the weekend and I was worried that you were all bored!

I think we lost a little evening atmosphere because there was more room but it was the best one so far so next year...wow! The stallion owners and presenters were loads more professional and organized and there was hardly a spare moment for my impromptu interviewing as they ran in so seamlessly. Also, the audience are really getting the hang of this clapping and stomping business. We are heading in the right direction.

Let's be clear...all stallions are a matter of personal taste and usually heart over head. You can take all the info you like but unless you are really "in love" you are not going to be content. Masculinity is a criteria for stallion grading but I think this is something about presence and substance (physical development) which in the current system means "well" but not "over developed" at 21/2 or 3 years. Some very masculine stallions are very pretty and for my taste, I love a beautiful head and neck. Some people think my mares are masculine because they have well developed necks and my stallions I prefer to have even more "quality" than the mares. Even older stallions can have "quality". Wenckstern has a gorgeous face.

My personal opinion is that almost all the stallions were "serious", offering a variety of improving characteristics. Temperament should always be high on the list and every stallion has a number of weaknesses. It is the job of the breeder to make sure that they do not double up on "weaknesses" with their mare. If they want to breed good foals types, they need a stallion with a record for breeding winning foals or being a winning foal himself. If you want a Grand Prix horse, then the stallion should have gone Grand Prix or made Grand Prix children. If a stallion has a short neck...don't use it on a mare with a short neck. It is all very simple, really.


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## stolensilver (1 February 2012)

To go back to Ciss's post she said 



			One final point, the Futuity deliberately does not have a section for masculinity / feminity in its assessment criteria. This is becuase this attribute has little or no influence on performance (except that an unruly colt may well need to be gelded in order to perform in competition to the best of its physical ability) and masculinity and feminity are seen as important factors in studbook assessments FOR BREEDING and should therefore be left to them. OTOH, this can lead to confusion when a highly marked animal scores much less well in its grading or studbook assessment, but in such cases the conformation, paces etc assessents are usually pretty similar (ie high) but it is the masculinity / femininity score that lets the animal down in its grading.
		
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Sadly this has not been my experience. I've bought two young fillies who have both gone on to be graded Elite at the Futurity. One was highest scoring 3yo in the country, the other was 3rd best. Within weeks of their Futurities both were taken to their respective studbook gradings. The best 3yo dressage filly in the country was graded as being less than average at her grading. The 3rd best in the country was graded as being a little better than average but not good enough to go in the top studbook. Sickened does not come close to how I felt.

But at both studbook gradings my 3yo was the only 3yo in the class. Although 3 year olds are supposed to be judged separately to the older horses because they have a class of one they amalgamate it with the older horses and a 3yo simply cannot hold their own against mature horses. 

Since those gradings both fillies (now mares) have been seen by some top dressage riders and rated very highly indeed. In view of this I think the Futurity gives a better assessment of young horses than studbook gradings do. After all, the Futurity assessors are looking at literally hundreds of foals to 3yo horses in a very short space of time. They have plenty of practice "getting their eye in" on a young horse.

What I learned is never, ever take your 3yo filly to be graded in the UK. Wait till she is mature, under saddle and muscled up. If you don't your filly will be penalised for being young.


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## Ciss (1 February 2012)

stolensilver said:



			What I learned is never, ever take your 3yo filly to be graded in the UK. Wait till she is mature, under saddle and muscled up. If you don't your filly will be penalised for being young.
		
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This is very sad as in Europe practially every filly is presented for grading at 3 years old, with saddle tests and residential performance tests following on at 4 and 5 years old for the really high scoring ones destined for the Head Studbook. Only rather backward / immature fillies -- or those that were sick or lame at 3 years old -- are usually presented at 4 years old for initial grading and all the grading judges KNOW what level of development, maturity and feminity to look for in a 3 year old filly. Sadly it would appear that many grading judes in the UK do not -- or that mare owners are reluctant to put their 3 year old fillies forward becuase no-one else does, thus re-inforcing a vicious cycle. Unfortunately in a number of studbooks the same sort of situation occurs in stallion grading, where the judges can seem so unsure of being able to identify potential in a 3 year old (in mainland Europe of course they start doing it at 2 1/2 years old) that they rarely pass anything of that age (however well bred, athletic, masculine and well tempered it is) becuase 'it has no proven competition record' <sigh>. Until the UK studbooks concerned realise how poorly they are serving Britrish breeding by using stallion graders without this skill -- or in the case of those that use experienced grading judges from abraod whose advice on such matters is not taken -- then this situation will continue and promising sires will be gelded and top class mares allotted to unecessarily low studbook sections having not been recognsied as such just becuase of the assessment process involved.


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## woodlander (2 February 2012)

Well covered Ciss. It is always a problem with some Studbooks that the Judges sent to the UK can vary in their assessments of those animals presented. If it is any consolation, it is the same when the commissions work anywhere abroad. results vary from place to place.
In Studbook inspections, the studbook "type" and "femininity" of a filly or mare is a key component for placing in the studbook. This is a breeding assessment. Scores also work off a slightly different base line with a 7 being. as always, "fairly good" but applied to a much larger population.

A Futurity evaluation is for sport and type is only relevant for function and in the UK, we are able to embrace a much wider specification and we do not have the responsibilities of a Studbook commission from some Studbooks  to move the type and gene pool in a certain direction.


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## vanessarimmer (2 February 2012)

I thought the dressage stallions were brilliant. We are definitely getting more towards the quality in Holland and Germany but we just don't have the statistics to back up what these stallions produce in the same way as they do abroad.

Another vote for Cash Point. I have a foal by him who is a good mover and such an easy temperamment.


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## starryeyes (2 February 2012)

Very, very well said Woodlander.

I think it was a fabulous, well supported evening & I agree some of the atmosphere that was quite overwhelming last year was lost due to the extra space.  However, I think it seemed to attract a lot of new faces & overall was a stunning success.

Going back to stallions I had quoted that i wasn't sure Mr Big Cat was 'wow' enough for me.  I think Woodlander summed it up beautifully when saying she prefers her stallions to have more quality than the mares.  My mare is quite plain, I think Mr Big Cat is the right stallion for the mare (except for 17hh x 17hh with a 5ft4 rider!) except I worry that the end result won't be enough quality for what i am looking for.  His temprament is fantastic with a good attitude to his work.

Each to their own & lets face it if we all liked only one type or one stallion we'd soon get bored with the number of similar horses out there.

Here's to British Breeding in the future!


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## henryhorn (7 February 2012)

Well Lesley P-G just wanted to say thank you because if I hadn't read what you'd said about Franklyn Sugar I wouldn't have been as interested in seeing if I agreed with you. 
What a revelation, beautiful chap, moved like a cat on his feet and obviously trainable. 
He also had good limbs and excellent feet. 
I went and checked him closely in his box and he was friendly but very aware of who he was.
Your comments re not "stallion enough" I'm afraid I totally disagree with, he was stallion enough for me to decide to use him with one of my mares this year. 
I had never met his owners or connections either, so a totally unbiased opinion from me. 
I also went and watched Future Illusion who appeared a totally laid back type, poor chap must have felt as if he had ants in his pants at Hartpury with an allergic reaction, at Addington he didn't put a hoof wrong..
I hope anyone reading your opinion will remember it's just that, YOUR opinion and go and make their own minds up, I did and am really looking forward to a foal in 2013.


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## Partoow (7 February 2012)

As I said , for ME, I was talking with reference to the feeling I had for mares that I had in mind! A different couple of mares for different owners with different needs would most likely produce a different view.
It is possible to make a critical assessment without that being totally negative. I did not in anyway condem any stallion, I said they had great sport ability in all cases!
When looking to produce a better offspring than the mare it must be possible to question the qualities you are looking to Improve on, or the most salient aspects . After all there is no such thing as the perfect horse.
To suggest I would be biased in any future situations regarding assessment of products of any stallion is actually totally unfounded . I veiw offspring with a clear mind and look puely for the 'form and function' 
When looking at a 'grading' where type has a little more influence then decisions may be a little different.
Few of you know of my own personal experiences, I have been a ( in the past ) been a 100 day test rider for a German stud book so any questions I form are related to the type of questions I was asked regarding stallions in that situation.
When questioning 'sharp or hot' behaviour again it relates to the requirements for that foal. I personally love very sharp horses but most people and riders would not find that their chomps tea and a non professional who does not have the time or inclination to ride such a horse should consider that. It is exactly that, a consideration relative to the mare and your needs as a breeder but also with an eye on the end use and the long term future of the products of breeding decisions.
Happy healthy foals with good prospects are a goal for all.


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## Partoow (7 February 2012)

That supposed to say cup of tea! Sadly I'm using an iPhone so fat fingers !


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## amy_b (8 February 2012)

cruiseline said:



			OK so who went to Hartpury and what were your thoughts on the stallions presented?

I have heard glowing reports about Don VHP and Cooper Van De Heffinckm, also some not so glowing reports about others.

Thoughts please people 

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I fell in love with Tresor Mail, he was so nice in the stables. much nicer to cuddle than my gelding at home!! Jaguar mail was like meeting a celebrity...!  if I win the lottery maybe!! 

I was (along with everybody around me) AMAZED by supertramp!!! what an acheivement to get a 3 year old (I doubt he was actually 3 at that point in Feb?!) trotting and cantering round that atmosphere and behaving better than lots of the old boys!! Looking forward to seeing what he does for Woodlander!  
Another baby was meadows pony stallion, Romulus, he wasnt quite as well behaved as Supertramp (which would take some beating!) but still very impressive for pony breeders, mum and I wanted to buy a pony mare after seeing him which we thought must be a good sign (we'r NOT!!)

I liked Wickstead Digeridoo (sp could be wrong there!) but didnt have a real chance to look at him properly in the stables or trotting up but he came across as a bargain as he has a good chance of going to the olympics this year!

there were tons more impressive stallions, nearly every single one, these were just the ones that stood out for one reason or another for me 



lesleypg said:



			Treliver Decanter had come on so much under his new rider a much much better representation if what the horse has to offer but it is HOT!! The DiMaggio has much to bring to the table but sometimes they are hot!
		
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By hot do you mean the same as sharp? if so I have to disagree with this _personally_ and this is one of the main reasons I have chosen him for 2012/13 I have met him so many times I think Gill will take out a restraining order soon  not once has he come across as _sharp_ I have seen him in his trailer, warming up at competitions, at the stallion show and cooling down. even cooling down after his show at Hartpury he was wired but stood stock still while we patted him and fed him polos (I also took the opportunity to ask him for a filly!!)
I think any stallion trained to that level, in that arena, under spotlights,loud music, atmosphere,tradestands,clapping should appear....stallion enough?!!!  *chukkles!!* 



lesleypg said:



			When questioning 'sharp or hot' behaviour again it relates to the requirements for that foal. I personally love very sharp horses but most people and riders would not find that their chomps tea and a non professional who does not have the time or inclination to ride such a horse should consider that.
		
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again, I may have misinterpreted what you are saying so apologies if I have but I hope by this you are not suggesting all amateurs dont have the time to ride sharp horses?! Most of my amateur friends like to have a sharp horse. I prefer to ride straightforward horses but have accidentally bought two in a row that are sharp, one left a dodo and the second I still have and is almost tame after 2 years, he now restrains his bad behaviour to the lunge _mostly_. Its possible that these 'sharp' horses dont suit the highly strung environment of a professional yard - so makes them sharp (or stallion enough..*hehe!*) 

Just to add, this is my opinion in response to your opinion!


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## amy_b (8 February 2012)

-Also, I did say on the facebook page that the talk with Bernard Le Courtois was about 2 hours too short!! 
Would be BRILLIANT if somebody with contacts could organise 'an evening with Bernard Le Courtois' talking through his stallions, especially if some of the mares could be there aswell, Jamesmead (I think?!!) did say this _might_ be possible to organise for next year. Im sure there would be alot of interest!!
If I gave up breeding I think I would go just because I have enjoyed it so much two years in a row.


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## jamesmead (8 February 2012)

amy_b said:



			Jamesmead (I think?!!)
		
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Not me! Probably James Crawford, who represents his stallions?


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## amy_b (8 February 2012)

Got the first part right 
Your right, thats who it was!! thanks


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## Sugar House (8 February 2012)

lesleypg said:



			Welshone , I expressed my opinion which I'm am well within my rights to do
I said nothing that was derogatory, or unreasonable while your horse is a nice chap and a good competition horsey don't doubt , there were a couple of other factored that I feel , I did not point out any one stallions that was not fair but beings as you pushed the point I will say for me your horse is not masculine enough.
Like I said a nice sport horse but not type enough.
but like I put it in my post that's for me and believe it or not I'm am allowed to have that opinion .
		
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With all due respect Lesleypg, you did mention stallions by their names and you did focus on a negative (in your opinion) not masculine enough. 

I very much agree with you that everyone is allowed their opinion but I do feel in your position, its not really advisable to be negative about specific stallions on an open forum, especially when its not based on bad performance or behaviour, it was actually based on exceptional behaviour!. I have never met you but after the comments on here I received a personal Facebook message from someone you obviously know, that said "Maybe LPG actually has an issue with the people & not the horse!" I have no idea what this means as I don't know you and never have known you. Can you advise if our paths have ever crossed and if so what i may have done to offend you. I really hope we can meet one day and maybe chat over a coffee, Im very friendly and still relatively new to the breeding game, so very happy to listen to a more experienced professional. Also i hope if/and when you may judge our first crop I can put to rest any of your reservations on masculinity vs type. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

All the above is written in a positive and lighthearted manner, not wanting to cause any more drama!


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## chrissie1 (8 February 2012)

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but now a Futurity Evaluator has come out with her opinion of more than one stallion.  Treliver Decanter is hot, but she likes sharp horses.  Franklyn Suger is not, so presumably not hot enough.  She likes Springsteen, one of the better Catherston horses, and has an opinion on some of the Woodlander horses.

We all have opinions, but it doesn't seem appropriate for someone, whose credentials are not in doubt, to pass open judgment when they will be judging these stallions offspring.  If I were a Judge or Evaluator, and I didn't like a stallion whose progeny were in front of me, I'd be hard pushed to remain totally impartial.  However, had I also posted my opinion on a public forum then it would be very easy for the owners of the horse being judged not to draw the obvious conclusion if they were marked down.


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## Monkers (8 February 2012)

Well, I am thoroughly disappointed by the comments by LPG. I have had youngstock evaluated by her at the futurity and have been satified by the comments which were fair.

However, will I bring my Franklyn Sugar foal (Due in the spring) to next year's futurity if LPG is one of the evaluators?
Well, probably yes, but only because I will have booked and paid for it before I find out who the evaluators are. 

It's not just stallion owners who are understandably annoyed when their stallions are disussed negatively, especially when it is wholly undeserved on a forum, it's us mare owners too. We are trying to use the best stallions with the hope of producing a quality foal with a high market value. Negative comments about the stallion could impact on the value of my foal too.

Don't underestimate the impact of forums, especially this one. Any google search on a specific stallion will bring up comments on this forum, which is valuable research for mare owners. 

Anyone who passes judgement on other people's horses for a living, be it a futurity evaluator or a dressage judge etc, should absolutely not discuss their opinions in a professional or personal capacity on this, or any other forum.


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## chrissie1 (8 February 2012)

Well said, I have apparently used a stallion who throws quirky stock.  All I can say is that the two I bred from different temperament mares are the most straightforward foals ever.


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## Cherrygarden (9 February 2012)

Could I please say at this point as the person who asked Lesleypg for her opinion of the dressage stallions that whilst all of the comments made above raise valid concerns and almost certainly need to be said, I have a little experience of Lesleypg personally having been a steward at some futurities and also been lucky enough to shadow the evaluators a few years ago. I do not know all the evaluators or how they might evaluate/mentally assess the horse in front of them due to for knowledge of its breeding but I can say reasonably confidently that in the futurity setting you will get a fair assessment from Lesleypg and the few other evaluators I have witnessed at work. 
Please remember when the inevitable storm breaks and someone gets a comment they think isn't fair that the evaluators can only say what they see in a very short snap shot of your horses life and no one can be right all the time plus as horse people in general that whilst some of these comments have caused understandable sore spots and people are quite right to say if they feel slighted or wronged, we are not a community known for its tactful way of putting things. Not just H and H forum but british horse people in general so we may all be guilty of having said the wrong thing in the wrong place at the wrong time.


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## Sugar House (9 February 2012)

cherry garden, I agree and at the end of the day the proof is in the pudding 
Im excited and anxious all in one for our first crop to be evaluated. I know I will hear some good and some bad, its the nature of the beast. Im prepared 
mentally that is, may need to squeeze a bit of fitness training in first though!


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## Cherrygarden (9 February 2012)

I have no foals due this year Sugar house so am looking forwards to seeing everyone elses - no wait there is one due by my stallion fingers crossed all going well and am really looking forward to seeing that one as it is the first one out of a coloured, pc, wooly cob mare. I am quite excited about that and seeing how it turns out she is the sweetest mare.
I shall be looking forward to seeing your babies too : )


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## GinnieRedwings (9 February 2012)

Monkers said:



			Anyone who passes judgement on other people's horses for a living, be it a futurity evaluator or a dressage judge etc, should absolutely not discuss their opinions in a professional or personal capacity on this, or any other forum.
		
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Hear hear

Especially when LPG was also riding one of the other dressage stallions presented at Hartpury.

Lack of fair play, as well as professionalism in my opinion.


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## chrissie1 (9 February 2012)

Really?  I didn't know that, all the more reason to maintain a dignified silence.  Of course, if asked there is a way of expressing your opinions without nailing your colours so firmly to the mast.


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## GinnieRedwings (9 February 2012)

Yes, LPG is the new rider of Garuda K. There was some discussion back in the summer about whether she would be able to maintain her impartiality as a Futurity evaluator and whether she ought to continue at all...


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## henryhorn (9 February 2012)

Well said Monkers, tempting though it must be as an evaluator they must be seen to be totally impartial and frankly learn to keep their opinions except on the evaluating day to themselves .
Their opinion didn't put me off, in fact I was curious what they meant, if a stallion who appears to be breathing fire when ridden is their idea of what is required in breeding good competition horses then I do wonder despite their credentials if they are the right person for the task. 
The number of people (usually professional riders) who can ride that type of animal (I read the lady even likes "hot" horses herself) must be in the top 10% of riders in the UK. What about the other 90% who want a beautiful, sound and attractive and above all trainable horse ? 
It's been said so many times, yes, we need amazing horses for the top level of competition, but we also need decent ones for the middle, and hopefully the standard will rise to drag the lowest levels up as a result.
I feel so sorry for stallion owners when they get this sort of negativity said, but take the view that the proof is in the pudding, getting their offspring out there and competing will soon stop unjustifed comments, let's see in 8 years time how the picture's changed, I'd like to bet the results will speak for themselves....


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## Avonbrook (9 February 2012)

^^^^^^^^^

This, absolutely.


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## chrissie1 (9 February 2012)

Echo this.  I have lost track of the times I have said that it is no use us breeding horses with impeccable bloodlines, amazing trots, but ones that the 'average' rider (and I was no better than 'average' when I rode) can't handle.  

Many riders work full time, have families etc and perhaps no arena to use daily even given that they have the time.  The horses get ridden at weekends, one that needs serious work daily isn't the answer, no matter how good they think they are.


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## ninab (21 February 2012)

seabsicuit2 said:



			Any thoughts on take it 2 the limit and Ramiro B?
		
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Quick reply about Ramiro B, as I thought the reply you got was a little negative!!  He is a legend of a stallion and his wealth of progeny are testament to the fact that he is producing the goods!  He has around 40 Grade A Showjumping horses competing worldwide, plus numerous event horses including very consistent 4 star performer Ballynoe Castle RM!!  He is now 19 years old and still exceptionally fertile.


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## magic104 (22 February 2012)

Having seen Franklyn Sugar twice in the flesh & up close, the comments are rubbish.  And if he lacks masculinity god knows what she thought of a least another there who I had the same thoughts about.  We all see things differently I suppose, & you do wonder at some of they hype, "The Emperor's New Clothes" comes to mind.  What can't be forgotten though is the mare.  I also feel that judges & evaluators need to be careful about voicing their opinions on public forums.  People need to have confidence in the system & I think it about time that these horses are judged without their breeding been known.  What relevance is that to the judges anyway?  If they are judging the animal in front of them, then the parentage is irrelavant, surely?  Once they have given their marks then give them the information, but not before.  If someone can explain why the parentage is needed that would be very helpful.


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## cruiseline (23 February 2012)

Having seen Franklyn Sugar twice in the flesh & up close, the comments are rubbish. And if he lacks masculinity god knows what she thought of a least another there who I had the same thoughts about. We all see things differently I suppose, & you do wonder at some of they hype, "The Emperor's New Clothes" comes to mind. What can't be forgotten though is the mare. I also feel that judges & evaluators need to be careful about voicing their opinions on public forums. People need to have confidence in the system & I think it about time that these horses are judged without their breeding been known. What relevance is that to the judges anyway? If they are judging the animal in front of them, then the parentage is irrelavant, surely? Once they have given their marks then give them the information, but not before. If someone can explain why the parentage is needed that would be very helpful.
		
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We need a 'like' button on this forum


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## Maesfen (23 February 2012)

magic104 said:



			.......  People need to have confidence in the system & I think it about time that these horses are judged without their breeding been known.  What relevance is that to the judges anyway?  If they are judging the animal in front of them, then the parentage is irrelavant, surely?  Once they have given their marks then give them the information, but not before.  If someone can explain why the parentage is needed that would be very helpful.
		
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If you remember rightly we've been saying this ever since the Futurity started and have been told that it's necessary for them to know so they can compare with other stock of similar breeding and know how a stallion stamps his stock or words to that effect; I'm sure you'd find them on here if you searched, there were long replies from Ciss amongst others why it was necessary for them to know.  I have a far more cynical idea why they need it myself which I'm sure you can well imagine but at the end of the day, if they are ignoring some vet reports (as already reported several times) and doing it on breeding alone then it is just a showing class judged on preferences of breeding which is totally wrong.
It would be very interesting to see if results differed from not knowing the breeding beforehand.


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## Cherrygarden (23 February 2012)

We need that like button again.....


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## chrissie1 (23 February 2012)

Yes we do.  As an (ex) In Hand Hunter exhibitor, it was a big nono, and against the rules, to ask the breeding of any horse you judged before the Championship.

Of course those on the circuit all knew each others horses breeding inside out.  So when an unknown such as me was well placed or won then you knew that you'd been judged on the horses merits, certainly not the breeding - or the handler.


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## Maesfen (23 February 2012)

Couldn't agree more Chrissie, that's how I used to feel (other than with the horses) when our Border Terriers won their classes in front of the usual 'culprits'; they had done it on their own merits which is so much more satisfying.


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## magic104 (23 February 2012)

Maesfen said:



			If you remember rightly we've been saying this ever since the Futurity started and have been told that it's necessary for them to know so they can compare with other stock of similar breeding and know how a stallion stamps his stock or words to that effect; I'm sure you'd find them on here if you searched, there were long replies from Ciss amongst others why it was necessary for them to know.  I have a far more cynical idea why they need it myself which I'm sure you can well imagine but at the end of the day, if they are ignoring some vet reports (as already reported several times) and doing it on breeding alone then it is just a showing class judged on preferences of breeding which is totally wrong.
It would be very interesting to see if results differed from not knowing the breeding beforehand.
		
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Sorry Maesfen but they dont answer the question because nothing explains why the judges cant know after they have judged.  Any comparisons can still take place afterwards.


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## Maesfen (23 February 2012)

You and I and many others know that Magic and I think a lot of people would prefer it if breeding wasn't known until after marks are given.  It always makes me think that the evaluators actually need to know for a bit of guidance as to whether they should approve of it or not silly as that might sound but it's how it appears; makes them seem not so independent as they would like us to think.


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