# Sheep worrying



## Polonaise (20 March 2016)

Bloody dog has this week decided that sheep are interesting having never shown any interest before, unfortunately this has manifested as escaping at the slightest chance and reappearing 30 minutes later cornering the neighbours sheep. Chosen the worse time of year to start, they're late lambing so no babies yet but obviously not the time to be stressing them.
He is of pointer type and despite trying a couple of trainers and many months long lining does not have a reliable recall (ok lets be honest, any recall). He's an intelligent dog and learns voice commands very easily but tends to view them as suggestions rather then commands. He is obsessed with running and birds and there's no reward in the world that's better then those two things. He will chase horses and cats but not "his" horses and cat so apart from the obvious fence re-enforcements I was thinking a bit of "desensitisation".

Today the sheep have sensibly moved to the top field away our boundary, I spent some time on a long line rewarding every time he turned his attention away from the sheep in the distance or the wool on the fence, interesting how beautifully he points when you don't want him to! Also went over 'come' and 'leave' again as not done for a while. By the end he was walking past the (currently empty) sheep field looking anywhere but at it. Am I right in thinking if he doesn't respond to a command I ignore him rather then repeat it? The neighbours have a couple of lambs left from last year that didn't grow enough, would it be sensible/reasonable to ask if I could borrow them for a bit or take my dog into their field (on lead) to continue training?

Any other amazing tips for teaching a badly trained dog that sheep are boring? Need to nip this in the bud before the neighbours stop being quite so reasonable.


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## alliwantforchristmas (20 March 2016)

If you are anywhere near the forest of dean I can put you in touch with a trainer who would be up to the job.


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## Polonaise (20 March 2016)

alliwantforchristmas said:



			If you are anywhere near the forest of dean I can put you in touch with a trainer who would be up to the job.
		
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Thanks, Derbyshire unfortunately


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## Clodagh (20 March 2016)

A location would be handy as I think you need professional help, as has been said. Obviously from now on dog must never be anywhere offlead, including in your garden if it is less than 100% secure.

Sorry, cross posted and I don't know anyone in your area. Have you asked the farmer what he suggests? His second suggestion as I imagine his first will be bullet.


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## MotherOfChickens (20 March 2016)

The farmer next door put another neighbours pointer in a pen with some blackie ewes which sorted it. Not saying this is the best way, just one way.
I do feel for you, my setter was similar with the bird and recall thing as a youngster (understandably) and it does feel like an unwinable battle but one you must get sorted.


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## alliwantforchristmas (20 March 2016)

ah, sorry, don't know anyone up that way.

I have gone down the route of de-sensitization with sheep, but tbh have my own sheep and have the dogs round the sheep pretty much every day until they are totally blase about it (the dogs, I mean, not the sheep).  It also depends on the 'drive' of the dog.  

This has got some ideas in it - although please disregard the final chapter as how anyone can do this and not have the dog associate the punishment with people (and therefore set the dog up with a fear/dislike of people) is completely beyond me - he does say that the owner should not do it, but I don't believe even a trainer should do it. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stop-control-predatory-chasing-dogs/dp/1409258270 

And this is also good - http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=dtb1126


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## Maesfen (20 March 2016)

Just be aware (as I'm sure you are) that any farmer is totally within his right to shoot any dog which is seen to worry livestock and that includes just running them.  You'll have to be totally responsible and do the decent thing if it continues to be a problem that you can't stop; it doesn't matter if your neighbours have two or two hundred sheep, the principles the same.

You're going to have to make it tough love and make the dog even regret looking at sheep (or any livestock for that matter)  Better that than either have him shot or told to put down.

The ewes in a pen often works.

I think you need Alec to give you the low down on 'desensitizing to livestock'; he's bound to have some decent ideas.


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## Equi (20 March 2016)

If it was my dog, i would have to chain it up when im not about. It is not worth it to the farmer or the dog if it escapes.


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## Orangehorse (20 March 2016)

A local neighbour lost his dogs and came round to find out if we had seen them.  We asked if they chased sheep, as we had brother-in-law's grazing in a large field.  He replied no, they had sheep in the field next to the garden and the dogs had never shown any interest.

The next day my OH and son found the dogs in with "our" sheep, they had caused quite a bit of damage.  As a) the sheep weren't ours and b) the land wasn't ours either, it was some we have for grazing I said to son that he mustn't shoot the dogs, and they managed to catch them.  Two sheep died, but several lost their lambs, brother-in-law put the matter into the hands of a Land Agent and it cost the owner of the dog about £3,000 in compensation, cost of vet visits, damage to sheep, loss of lambs.  Insurance will only pay out a small amount.

I guess that the dogs saw the sheep in their next door field as "their" sheep and part of the family, but coming across a field of sheep that ran away, instinct took over.


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## twiggy2 (20 March 2016)

how many times has your dog been able to chase th sheep, regardless of what training route you take every time your dog chases the sheep an unwanted behaviour is reinforced-you must make sure the dog cannot get to the sheep


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## jrp204 (20 March 2016)

Firstly, make sure your dog cannot get out of your property! It is thought that dogs that chase sheep have a lead deficiency......easily remedied by your local sheep farmer.
I am actually amazed your neighbours were 'reasonable'.


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## popsdosh (20 March 2016)

jrp204 said:



			Firstly, make sure your dog cannot get out of your property! It is thought that dogs that chase sheep have a lead deficiency......easily remedied by your local sheep farmer.
I am actually amazed your neighbours were 'reasonable'.
		
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I have only had to resort to shooting once . We used to offer locals the oportunity to have their dogs sheep proofed at lambing time. However two Afgans killed five ewes one day and against my better nature I took them back to the owner only for them to be back in the ewes within 2 hours , They never had that oportunity again. 

To be honest your best course of action is to ask a friendly sheep farmer to help and not be too precious about what needs to be done as its for the dogs good in the long run. 

If you dont think it works tell my old sheep dogs who will not come anywhere near ewes in a pen and go very deaf if I call them. We used to use them to help bonding ewes and lambs some times but the dogs get very wise to it.


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## Alec Swan (20 March 2016)

Polonaise said:



			Thanks, Derbyshire unfortunately
		
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There are some highly competent shepherds/dogmen in Derbyshire.  Your best route may be to find one and seek their advice.

Alec.


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## ycbm (20 March 2016)

Polonaise said:



			Bloody dog has this week decided that sheep are interesting having never shown any interest before, unfortunately this has manifested as escaping at the slightest chance and reappearing 30 minutes later cornering the neighbours sheep. Chosen the worse time of year to start, they're late lambing so no babies yet but obviously not the time to be stressing them.
He is of pointer type and despite trying a couple of trainers and many months long lining does not have a reliable recall (ok lets be honest, any recall). He's an intelligent dog and learns voice commands very easily but tends to view them as suggestions rather then commands. He is obsessed with running and birds and there's no reward in the world that's better then those two things. He will chase horses and cats but not "his" horses and cat so apart from the obvious fence re-enforcements I was thinking a bit of "desensitisation".

Today the sheep have sensibly moved to the top field away our boundary, I spent some time on a long line rewarding every time he turned his attention away from the sheep in the distance or the wool on the fence, interesting how beautifully he points when you don't want him to! Also went over 'come' and 'leave' again as not done for a while. By the end he was walking past the (currently empty) sheep field looking anywhere but at it. Am I right in thinking if he doesn't respond to a command I ignore him rather then repeat it? The neighbours have a couple of lambs left from last year that didn't grow enough, would it be sensible/reasonable to ask if I could borrow them for a bit or take my dog into their field (on lead) to continue training?

Any other amazing tips for teaching a badly trained dog that sheep are boring? Need to nip this in the bud before the neighbours stop being quite so reasonable.
		
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Can I ask why the dog is able to chase the sheep? If he was near me, he would have been shot by now. Can he not be fenced in or tied up?


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## Amymay (20 March 2016)

My dog will happily chase sheep. She's simply not given the opportunity.


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## Bosworth (21 March 2016)

mine wont chase sheep, they are around sheep daily on the farm where i keep my horse. yes I had an issue once where Flodden chased I caught him, and he was smacked hard and told off. And kept close to heel and cowed by my disapproval as I made him walk back and fore through those sheep until he didnt dream of even glancing at them. Yes it was hard and yes I hated smacking him. And forcing the issue. But now I can walk on Dartmoor, through a flock of sheep and he wont even look at them, just carries on sniffing around and playing with my whippet. My whippet is so desperate for approval that she wouldnt even dream of looking at a sheep. Both are used for herding the sheep on the farm when we want them in the barns. We havent got sheep dogs, so my two are allowed to bring the sheep in. They know they are not allowed to chase, just follow along under command, and run across the behind them if they run off. It is hard, but cruel to be kind is acceptable in this instance. Better I smack my dog than a farmer shoots it.


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## Goldenstar (21 March 2016)

You just have to make sure you are never out of control of the dog you have to whatever it takes to achieve this .
There will be a trainer locally to help with sheep training you need to ask around .
The person I take my gun dog to keeps some old ewes for sheep training however the time to do this training is before the dog has learnt to case sheep your on the back foot now and compete control of the dog at all times may be the only way forward .


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## Dry Rot (21 March 2016)

Dog owners should work on the assumption that all young dogs will chase sheep given the opportunity. Initially, it will be curiosity and just following instinct. Then instincts are reinforced by success in catching or herding. Prevention is better than cure.

I suggested 'aversion therapy' on the thread started by the owner wanting to stop a young spaniel from chasing free range hens. That is achieved by making it seem that the hens caused the pain. not the owner. When my GSD pups started to chase my free range hens, I simply set off after them and gave them a smack on the rump with a schooling whip. I countered this by calling them to me and making a fuss of them even though this was immediately after the hen encounter. Any dead hens are hung on the electric fence. A very bad video clip below shows the result. The pups will now run through a flock of my hens ignoring them as if they weren't there. Chasing just isn't fun!

My method of turning an older dog off sheep is to walk it, on the lead, through a field of sheep -- obviously with the owner's permission. I keep a switch (thin ash, hazel, or willow plant) in my right hand tight up to my leg so it is invisbible to the dog and have the lead in my left hand. Any interest in sheep gets a swift tap on the nose with the switch and a firm "No" or "Leave". I regularly stroke and soft talk the dog when it ignores or looks away from the sheep. Another good time is when the farmer is sorting sheep and they are let out, one by one, at the end of the race. Even a hint that the dog wants to chase and it gets a tap on the nose. I like to see them look away in obvious distaste every time a sheep runs out of th end of the race! .

There were objections to this method on the other thread because it hurts the dog. (You don't use lunge whips, schooling whips, bits, force head collars, tc. on your horses?). Cruelty is defined as causing unneccessary suffering. I'd suggest the above is 'neccessary suffering' and a lot less painful than two barrels from a 12 bore at 50 yards -- and it eliminates pain and stress to the poor sheep!

Dogs should either be securely locked up (in the kennel, secure garden, or the house) unless under the immediate supervision of their owners. Any dog loose in a field of sheep can legally be shot. That's the law.

[video=youtube_share;q3GGXkhr_ig]https://youtu.be/q3GGXkhr_ig[/video]


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## Maesfen (21 March 2016)

Hurrah for Bosworth and Dry Rot.  Absolute total sense.

We have free range bantams and right from the word go, all pups even the hound pups are taken to them with the other dogs.  The other dogs know what's going to happen and you can see them rolling their eyes and hanging back smirking but as soon as a pup even looks at a hen it is chastized, if it tries to chase it is given a good smack  and it's amazing how quickly they learn from our displeasure.  Within days they are able to go through them and not look at them even if they fly away.  I've got an old photo somewhere of them even eating with the hens in the middle of them.  Once they've learned not to chase hens, it carries over to other stock too; they have to know you will carry out strong retribution if they so much as look at them.  
Do it and mean it; it's so much better than a bullet.


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## Polonaise (21 March 2016)

Some great advice thank you very much.

To clarify the dog is locked in the house when unsupervised and on lead outside of the fenced area around the house. There have been two incidents in a few days (no previous interest in sheep), the first due to a gate being left open and the second due to him managing to get past my partner when he was struggling with something else. He's so bloody quick he's out of sight in seconds so although you know he's gone which direction is a mystery as he will double back when you're not looking. He is not an aggressive dog, he's doing it for fun but obviously I am aware this can have serious consequences for the sheep and whilst I love my dog I agree farmers are within their rights to shoot dogs attacking livestock. We have sort professional help with recall previously but he will never be reliable. Obviously the solution is to always check the gates before letting the dogs out and tie them up if trying to carry hay/lead horses through a boundary gate but if we can reduce his drive to chase sheep as well before it becomes ingrained then so much the better. He has naturally desensitised himself to the horses that he would chase as a young dog but ignores now, no specific training, he's just realised they're boring.
Yes he will have got a good slap when my partner caught him the second time (the neighbours found him the first time), he was still sulking when I got home some hours later. The difficulty with aversion techniques is timing and the risk of making the dog aggressive due to fear or associating the handler with fear, this is a dog that we strongly suspect has been abused in his former life and can react excessively to pain, we totally lost house training when we moved because I put an electric fence up around their toilet area as a temporary measure and both dogs quickly became afraid of going outside at all. Having said that I fully agree that a quick slap or shock is better then getting shot but it's not something I would be in a hurry to do without professional guidance.


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## MotherOfChickens (21 March 2016)

how old is he OP?


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## Clodagh (21 March 2016)

Our hound pups were always beaten up by the brown hens soon after they arrived, they always went back to kennels 100% steady to poultry.
As has been said the trouble with your young dog is he has learned what a self rewarding past time it is. If a hound riots out with the pack it is given a severe 'rating' by the whipper in, when I say rating I mean you really hear it happen but as the alternative is death a beating isn't too bad - as you have also said. 
I wonder if he is a rescue from abroad? Pointer type, cruelly treated? I have never met one of them with any recall or socail graces at all but haven't met many, to be fair.


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## Polonaise (21 March 2016)

He's an Irish stray that came to us via rescue at about a year old, emaciated but to be fair has a sensitive tummy so would have been difficult to keep weight on. He's now 6. We assume poor treatment as he was very specifically terrified of people standing next to open car doors or any indication he might be put in a car and reacts very fearfully to raised voices and angry people, no domestics in this house with the dog inside! As with most HPR types he's extremely loving and affectionate but shows a little too much instinct to hunt and flush and not enough to retrieve or stay on point long enough to grab him.
The labrador is sooo much easier, walk feed sleep repeat!


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## stencilface (21 March 2016)

I feel your pain, my dog did this last year and I didn't get there in time. Completely my fault, sheep were on our land grazing for us and I thought they were all on the opposite hill far away. There was one in a bush I didn't see  I think it was started a few years ago when some sheep had escaped into our garden (nearby farmers fence was horrendous, they weren't even in an adjacent field!) and he chased them, but all he did was corned them and nothing else. I know thats not good, but I thought he was a bit dim, but it turns out he knows exactly what to do.

I'm very wary now, and the dog is only off lead when I know no sheep are around.  I know he's not desperate to get them, he won't jump at a fence etc if I'm there. But I would love to desensitise him to them by putting him in with a ewe.  The local park where there are no sheep, or the beach are my best places for off lead walks now.  He's not small either as a GSD x Rottie, so if he did get away I've no illusions about what would happen. I got him as a 4yo, he's now 8 and despite being older and a big dog, my goodness he can shift!


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## jrp204 (21 March 2016)

Dog owners should also be aware a dog does not have to attacking sheep to be shot, if they are seen to be worrying them a farmer can shoot them. We had a black lab in the field with the ewes, not chasing them but the ewes didn't know the dog and took off through a hedge back into the yard. Technically we would have been within our rights to shoot the dog. My son ran down to the neighbours to ask if it was their dog, my husband went the other way to get the gun in case the dog decided to chase the sheep. They both turned up at the same time! The neighbours apologised profusely and refenced their garden and the dog hasn't got out since.

Quote "but all he did was corned them and nothing else. I know thats not good, but I thought he was a bit dim, but it turns out he knows exactly what to do."
That's how 116 ewes were killed 2 weeks ago.


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## crabbymare (21 March 2016)

how longor how far from the house is the boundary of the area he is let out in? If its only been when he has escaped how about using one of the invisible fences with underground wires that gives a static shock if they go near it? its not a huge electric shock but as he is not long haired it could work well with him and is better than a lead injection. you can also get the ones that work on sending a signal that has an effect a certain distance from the sender unit and I would think since he may have been abused at some point that it may be effective as once he knows its there and when to stop you can be seen to have nothing to do with the static. They are a bit expensive but would be a quick fix and probably easier than trying to train a dog that thinks lalala I cant hear you


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## alliwantforchristmas (21 March 2016)

Polonaise said:



			He's an Irish stray that came to us via rescue at about a year old, emaciated but to be fair has a sensitive tummy so would have been difficult to keep weight on. He's now 6. We assume poor treatment as he was very specifically terrified of people standing next to open car doors or any indication he might be put in a car and reacts very fearfully to raised voices and angry people, no domestics in this house with the dog inside! As with most HPR types he's extremely loving and affectionate but shows a little too much instinct to hunt and flush and not enough to retrieve or stay on point long enough to grab him.
The labrador is sooo much easier, walk feed sleep repeat!
		
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I'm going to stick my neck out (again) and probably to howls of derision say that if your dog has a history of being fearful to people, please do not take her to someone who is going to give her a hiding, for obvious reasons.  You need to either a) manage the dog (leads, tie outs in the garden, taken to places such as parks or forestry where there are no sheep for walks) OR find someone who will use an electric shock collar in a way that the dog does not associate the punishment with a person at all - ie, the dog wears a dummy collar for a considerable period of time before the training so there is no association between the collar, the human putting the collar on, and the punishment, and that this person can use the collar with precision timing and to maximum effect with minimum amount of shocks to the dog.  It CAN be done, and I know trainers who do it for severe chasers with an excellent success rate, including dogs who have killed several sheep.  The best of these trainers will also show you how to teach a positive recall away from sheep, on a line, and also how to re-direct your dog's chase instinct to a more legitimate outlet, both of which tactics will again minimise the amount of shock necessary for a successful outcome.  The other method, to put her in with scary sheep *can* work but I have seen a) dogs being injured; b) sheep being injured and c) an ineffective outcome as the dog does not generalise the training - he avoids sheep in a small area, but will still chase in an open field.  The way it is often done, which is person in with dog and hitting or otherwise scaring the animal every time he looks at sheep would not imho be suitable for your dog because of the fear issues you describe above.  

*stands back and waits for the conversation to continue of how ridiculous this suggestion is and how beating the dog up is the way forward*


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## alliwantforchristmas (21 March 2016)

crabbymare said:



			how longor how far from the house is the boundary of the area he is let out in? If its only been when he has escaped how about using one of the invisible fences with underground wires that gives a static shock if they go near it? its not a huge electric shock but as he is not long haired it could work well with him and is better than a lead injection. you can also get the ones that work on sending a signal that has an effect a certain distance from the sender unit and I would think since he may have been abused at some point that it may be effective as once he knows its there and when to stop you can be seen to have nothing to do with the static. They are a bit expensive but would be a quick fix and probably easier than trying to train a dog that thinks lalala I cant hear you 

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although this seems like a reasonable suggestion, I will say that I have seen several dogs whose owners have used this, and the dogs have developed a fear of the garden and will barely leave the house, and also I have heard of dogs who, when sufficiently aroused, have bolted through the 'fence' anyway.  Please secure your garden, or at least a part of your garden where your dog can be safe without worrying about avoiding a shock ... she does not sound the most confident dog and it is easy to get unwanted fallout from these kinds of devices.


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## stencilface (21 March 2016)

jrp204 said:



			Dog owners should also be aware a dog does not have to attacking sheep to be shot, if they are seen to be worrying them a farmer can shoot them. We had a black lab in the field with the ewes, not chasing them but the ewes didn't know the dog and took off through a hedge back into the yard. Technically we would have been within our rights to shoot the dog. My son ran down to the neighbours to ask if it was their dog, my husband went the other way to get the gun in case the dog decided to chase the sheep. They both turned up at the same time! The neighbours apologised profusely and refenced their garden and the dog hasn't got out since.
		
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Oh, know I know that!  It was just the first time the sheep started off in our garden and he went from there, so in fact the sheep were trespassing not my dog, they started it!   I know its not good, and I'd love to desensitise him, and I know now that him chasing them does end in disaster. Again, both times the sheep were on 'his' land, the second time was my fault, but honestly the first time we didn't know the sheep were in our garden til he found them!

Everyone makes mistakes, and most (all?) farmers will have had a dog at some point that needed reminding.  The vet I called for the sheep (it was still alive, but didn't recover) was very understanding, which was what I needed after a fraught morning not being able to get hold of anyone to sort the sheep (farmer was at the game fair and uncontactable). 

In all honesty, some days I look forward to when my dog can no longer run like that, as my life will be a lot less stressful, which is a horrid thing to admit.


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## Polonaise (21 March 2016)

jrp204 said:



			Dog owners should also be aware a dog does not have to attacking sheep to be shot, if they are seen to be worrying them a farmer can shoot them. We had a black lab in the field with the ewes, not chasing them but the ewes didn't know the dog and took off through a hedge back into the yard. Technically we would have been within our rights to shoot the dog. My son ran down to the neighbours to ask if it was their dog, my husband went the other way to get the gun in case the dog decided to chase the sheep. They both turned up at the same time! The neighbours apologised profusely and refenced their garden and the dog hasn't got out since.

Quote "but all he did was corned them and nothing else. I know thats not good, but I thought he was a bit dim, but it turns out he knows exactly what to do."
That's how 116 ewes were killed 2 weeks ago.
		
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Whilst I have stated that I agree with a farmers right to shoot a dog harming their livestock I would hope it would be a last resort taken after attempting to call or catch the dog (unless it is very obviously aggressive). I have been with a farmer when he found a large bull terrier type dog hanging from the neck of his heifer, I suggested a gun but he managed to remove the dog easily and chain it up. It was ultimately PTS but in a more controlled environment and the owner given chance to say farewells. Shooting a loose Labrador that isn't actually chasing seems a little extreme even it the sheep are upset.


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## twiggy2 (21 March 2016)

Polonaise said:



			Whilst I have stated that I agree with a farmers right to shoot a dog harming their livestock I would hope it would be a last resort taken after attempting to call or catch the dog (unless it is very obviously aggressive). I have been with a farmer when he found a large bull terrier type dog hanging from the neck of his heifer, I suggested a gun but he managed to remove the dog easily and chain it up. It was ultimately PTS but in a more controlled environment and the owner given chance to say farewells. Shooting a loose Labrador that isn't actually chasing seems a little extreme even it the sheep are upset.
		
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the dog that chased the kids pony through 2 fences and into an 18ft deep lake was not aggressive, it happened in less than a minute, why should people wait till it has been seen to go wrong? sheep can abort in seconds


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## jrp204 (21 March 2016)

[QUOTE=Polonaise; Shooting a loose Labrador that isn't actually chasing seems a little extreme even it the sheep are upset"

Actually if you read my post he had the gun in case the dog decided to chase the sheep. I'm sorry, if a dog was attacking/chasing my sheep I would not be wasting my time trying to catch it. I would be wanting to protect my stock and my living. If my sheep are 'upset' they have been worried by the dog. Upset sheep run, just like the 116 did that ran into a corner and died wedged between a fence, gate and a dog.


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## alliwantforchristmas (21 March 2016)

If sheep are upset, the dog owner has failed in their responsibility.  There is no excuse, dog needs to be on a short lead, and ideally distracted with toy or food so that it is not staring at the sheep or lunging or barking at them.  Walk through quietly, give the sheep as much space as possible, and distract the dog.  Dogs should only be off lead if they are 110% reliable in their heel work and can walk 'close' whenever commanded, and are not staring at the sheep imagining the fun that could be had!  I am dreading Easter ... we have a footpath through our fields and I know dogs will be off and running around around upsetting the sheep even though they are not technically 'chasing'.  A few years back I found one of my ewes had tried to jump a fence and was tangled hanging upside down with her leg twisted through the top strand of wire ... although I can't prove it I am sure she was chased as she had been in the field for years without every attempting to jump out!


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## MotherOfChickens (21 March 2016)

Polonaise said:



			Whilst I have stated that I agree with a farmers right to shoot a dog harming their livestock I would hope it would be a last resort taken after attempting to call or catch the dog (unless it is very obviously aggressive).
		
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some farmers might, some won't and atm sheep worrying is a real problem and high profile. The 116 ewes killed a few weeks back were not bitten at all, 'just' herded into a fence and crushed-probably by a 'playful' dog. Dogs on the chase are notoriously difficult to catch (hence the problem in the first place) and much damage can be done in a short space of time. '


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## Maesfen (21 March 2016)

I will upset a few here but it has to be said.
The one thing that annoys me most is owners not taking responsibility for their own dogs.   
If your dogs have ever chased sheep let alone killed a few as alliwantforchristmas has stated, then that dog should be put down.  Absolutely no excuse not to do the right thing.  You're playing with someone's livelihood it's totally unfair just because you can't stand up to the reality of the fact that your dog is a sheep worrier whether that is by accident (as in escaped) or lack of control on your part and treating sheep as not such a big deal; would you say the same if it had attacked a child or would you still be blinkered that you could get it right?


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## mystiandsunny (21 March 2016)

Secure garden. Dog on lead at all times. Double gate in so no chance of the dog running off.


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## twiggy2 (21 March 2016)

What gets me is a dog can just wander into a field of horses but with sheepsome effort has tobe put into the dog getting in with them, my last lurchers prey drive was very high, 3 of her litter mates were shot for sheep chasing all with different experienced lurchermen over the UK, I walk miles and miles and miles, new places every day and my lurcher would have loved to chase sheep so when ever I went into a new field the dog went on the lead till I was as sure as I could be that there were no livestock, he prey drive with sheep never escalated as it was never reinforced by the chase itself so she would walk through fields of livestock and ignore them-this meant I always had to do my best not to spook livestock and make them run or her interest would be sparked. I had her just under 8yrs and never did she chase farm livestock. 
My new dog does not have the same drive but bouncing sheep would be something to play with so she gets the same treatment-if a dog runs of far enough to get into sheep without and owner present then something needs to change with regards to how the dog is kept-it should never happen.
OP if you don't have a reliable recal the dog should be on lead anyway.


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## alliwantforchristmas (21 March 2016)

Maesfen said:



			I will upset a few here but it has to be said.
The one thing that annoys me most is owners not taking responsibility for their own dogs.   
If your dogs have ever chased sheep let alone killed a few as alliwantforchristmas has stated, then that dog should be put down.  Absolutely no excuse not to do the right thing.  You're playing with someone's livelihood it's totally unfair just because you can't stand up to the reality of the fact that your dog is a sheep worrier whether that is by accident (as in escaped) or lack of control on your part and treating sheep as not such a big deal; would you say the same if it had attacked a child or would you still be blinkered that you could get it right?
		
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I disagree completely that dogs should be put down out of hand (only responding because I was mentioned).  Dogs can be fixed, controlled, or rehomed to a town environment and walked in a park.  However, I agree that owners with out of control dogs are incredibly annoying, and can totally see the farmers' side, living where I do, and having my own flock.  What I think should happen is that if anyone's dog is caught worrying (not necessarily chasing even) there should be a hefty fine and follow through to see that that owner either has had the dog trained, or rehomed it or kept it secure.  The fault lies firmly with the owner, not the dog - although of course if a farmer sees a dog worrying sheep he is perfectly entitled to shoot it, and I don't disagree with that one bit.  The same should apply to dogs who are loose and chase after horses ... one of the worst riding accidents I had was when my horse was chased by two loose dogs, and he was never the same to hack after that.  It ruined him and no matter how much training I did his confidence was gone and he went from being a fab hack to dangerous.

There is also a tendancy for owners to get breeds that are completely out of their experience and remit, and have nothing like the work that they were bred for to do. Highly energetic, high drive dogs are kept bored, under-stimulated and under-trained - many of these dogs were never intended to be 'pets'. I think that's a big part of the problem, and educating the public about what dogs were bred for, and what they actually need, is really necessary.


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## Clodagh (21 March 2016)

I think the trouble is the average country dwelling townie doesn't really see a huge issue with their dog having fun in a sheep field. It isn't just the farmers livelihood - and they are making nothing as it is - but they don't actually like seeing their sheep hurt, scared and possibly killed. Imagine if a great big dog was chasing and attacking your smaller dog, in your garden, most people would deem that unacceptable but what is the difference? One being a pet and one an asset doesn't make the cruelty any less.

I totally agree with AIWFC that too many people have untrained working type dogs.


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## Fellewell (22 March 2016)

Under the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953 anyone in control of a dog when it worries livestock on agricultural land is guilty of a criminal offence. Just by causing the sheep to react you are doing harm, sheep can easily suffocate each other if panicked into the corner of a field.

All dogs need training and not just after something has happened. Right from the start, get that recall in place. I have a young bitch here, returned to the breeder because she bit someone. She can clear a six foot fence easily. Do I wait for that to happen? She's sharp and trainable, we saw a bunch of joggers the other day and she came to heel without being asked. Timing and a bit of common sense are all that's needed.


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## stencilface (22 March 2016)

I always love these posts where people have dogs with perfect recall, when the vast majority of dogs I see out and about have anything but! I'm not saying that its ideal, but dogs with perfect recall really are in the minority.  Great if you get a young dog you can train.  Its vastly different getting an older rescue dog. 

I love taking mine to to the beach (not been for a while) especially if its a cold day and there's no kids playing with footballs, another nemesis to my dog - whoops, it popped mum! I don't think there's any way I can desensitise him to that, we just have to play football at home with horse toys, which are indestructable


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## Fellewell (22 March 2016)

stencilface said:



			I always love these posts where people have dogs with perfect recall, when the vast majority of dogs I see out and about have anything but! I'm not saying that its ideal, but dogs with perfect recall really are in the minority.  Great if you get a young dog you can train.  Its vastly different getting an older rescue dog. 

I love taking mine to to the beach (not been for a while) especially if its a cold day and there's no kids playing with footballs, another nemesis to my dog - whoops, it popped mum! I don't think there's any way I can desensitise him to that, we just have to play football at home with horse toys, which are indestructable 

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If that was to me; when recall isn't 100% that's where the timing comes in.


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## Bellasophia (22 March 2016)

Fellewell said:



			If that was to me; when recall isn't 100% that's where the timing comes in.
		
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.......Or a long line?


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## honetpot (22 March 2016)

Firstly I have sheep and I have dogs, they are not sheep dogs and I would not trust them with other peoples sheep at all although they never go anywhere near ours as we have a ram so they keep a wide berth.
  I think people can not understand sheep are not just anonymous animal to most sheep keepers, they are just as distinctive to them as dogs. The big commercial flocks are just that, there is little profit in farming as it is, you only have to loose a few not to break even, and all the hard work is wasted. So when someone says,' the dog was just playing', to you its playing to the sheep its a threat, and sheep are easily stressed and when they stress they tend to die.
  Please have a look at this tread as it really explains the problems that sheep owners have, they do not want to shoot dogs but what would you do?
http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=72953.0;topicseen
  I feel for you OP, I have a s**t of a lurcher that chases hares given the chance, so he has to be walked on the lead and we have a stock fenced garden with a strand of electric on the top.


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## jrp204 (22 March 2016)

All dogs, regardless of how good their recall is should be on a lead around sheep. The law needs changing from 'under close control' to 'on a lead'. Too many people think their dogs are under close control until they get in a field of prey animals.
Is it really too much to ask whilst walking in fields around sheep to put a dog on a lead and potentially save a lot of heartache, stress and expense not only to the farmer but to the dog owner if the farmer acts within his rights.


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## stencilface (22 March 2016)

I need to fence my garden.  It currently has a poor post and netting fence, just with the netting which doesn't go to the ground in some places. It has a thick hedge that was laid last year along half of it, and a still growing hedge along the other bit. The guy renting the land behind my house (previously had horse on) it is planning on putting sheep in it.

I have found some cleft paling rolls that I think might be good?  It seems silly to have to build a whole new fence (which would be tricky given the proximity of the hedge to the fence) and I thought these would be strong enough, they are billed as stock proof. Then we could attach to the current fence behind the hedge and maybe just bang in a couple more posts for security? You can get it in 5ft and above which would be enough to keep my dog in.
http://tate-fencing.co.uk/product/cleft-chestnut-paling/


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## honetpot (22 March 2016)

Our last lot of fencing we used these in a smaller size. They are more expensive than wooden posts but you can use them with wire or electric. You need no special equipment ,so they are a DIY job.
http://clipex.co.uk/shop/deer/clipex-beefy-deer-post/


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## Polonaise (22 March 2016)

stencilface said:



			I always love these posts where people have dogs with perfect recall, when the vast majority of dogs I see out and about have anything but! I'm not saying that its ideal, but dogs with perfect recall really are in the minority.  Great if you get a young dog you can train.  Its vastly different getting an older rescue dog. 

I love taking mine to to the beach (not been for a while) especially if its a cold day and there's no kids playing with footballs, another nemesis to my dog - whoops, it popped mum! I don't think there's any way I can desensitise him to that, we just have to play football at home with horse toys, which are indestructable 

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Thanks  Loving the number of people implying I was walking the dog through a field of sheep with no lead on and don't care that it chased the sheep or that if any damage was done I would not financially compensate the owner (obviously cannot compensate for the emotional trauma). Read the post and clarification before judging. Slightly annoyingly the land owner the other side spent the day after the dog incident clearing trees and the sheep where clearly agitated by the machinery and noise, obviously if any abort I will have to pay as my dog trespassed but might not be entirely to blame.

As for shooting dogs before they've actually done anything just because they are loose near sheep, I'll remember that next time I come across escaped sheep on a bridleway and my horse spooks....actually I won't, I'll attempt to get the sheep back in the field or contact the owner, after regaining control of my horse even if it is inconvenient or involves some risk to myself or my horse. Everyone makes mistakes, not all dog owners are the same and dogs are not black or white, the majority fall somewhere between dedicated killers and perfectly trained, never put a foot wrong pooches whatever some of the posters on here seem to think.


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## stencilface (22 March 2016)

Yes, its very easy to fall foul of the HHO 'never put a foot wrong' brigade


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## Fellewell (22 March 2016)

Bellasophia said:



			.......Or a long line?
		
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Restraint is no substitute for training.


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## honetpot (22 March 2016)

Polonaise said:



			Thanks  Loving the number of people implying I was walking the dog through a field of sheep with no lead on and don't care that it chased the sheep or that if any damage was done I would not financially compensate the owner (obviously cannot compensate for the emotional trauma). Read the post and clarification before judging. Slightly annoyingly the land owner the other side spent the day after the dog incident clearing trees and the sheep where clearly agitated by the machinery and noise, obviously if any abort I will have to pay as my dog trespassed but might not be entirely to blame.

As for shooting dogs before they've actually done anything just because they are loose near sheep, I'll remember that next time I come across escaped sheep on a bridleway and my horse spooks....actually I won't, I'll attempt to get the sheep back in the field or contact the owner, after regaining control of my horse even if it is inconvenient or involves some risk to myself or my horse. Everyone makes mistakes, not all dog owners are the same and dogs are not black or white, the majority fall somewhere between dedicated killers and perfectly trained, never put a foot wrong pooches whatever some of the posters on here seem to think.
		
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Unfortunately its not just the dog but the diseases they carry that can abort sheep, or make the meat inedible.

http://www.nationalsheep.org.uk/dog-owners/


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## Bellasophia (22 March 2016)

Fellewell said:



			Restraint is no substitute for training.
		
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I agree ,but it will prevent a full on sheep attack... Who but an "id jut" would walk an off lead ,untrained dog ,close to a herd of sheep?


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## Slightlyconfused (22 March 2016)

Fellewell said:



			If that was to me; when recall isn't 100% that's where the timing comes in.
		
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I train mine to leave balls if they are being kicked about. Takes time and practice and still the ten year old collie sometimes forgets his entire training


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## Fellewell (22 March 2016)

Bellasophia said:



			I agree ,but it will prevent a full on sheep attack... Who but an "id jut" would walk an off lead ,untrained dog ,close to a herd of sheep?
		
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Yes and that's where the 'common sense' bit comes in but I like that you're deconstructing my post.


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## jrp204 (22 March 2016)

Ok, to clarify:
If a dog is in my field with my sheep I would be prepared to shoot it IF it was 'worrying or chasing' my livelihood. But, since I don't carry a gun in the pick up I would have to get home to get the gun. This could mean I would get back to the field and the dog has gone or it could be chewing the face of a ewe.
Not all dog owners are the same, many are good as gold but there are also those who cannot see that their pet is capable of doing huge amounts of damage.
A farmer chainsawing etc is not going to stress the sheep as much as a dog worrying or chasing them
If our sheep get out, that is our fault. We have Public liability insurance if they were to cause an accident. If they were to be attacked by a dog whilst escaped then we would have to take that on the nose too.
My JRT goes around the field licking the noses of the sheep, they have known her from birth and the ewes tolerate her around the lambing pens. Her behaviour would stress out an unfamiliar flock, worrying them. A farmer, if she was off the lead would be within his rights to shoot her. But then, she wouldn't be off the lead.


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## Fellewell (22 March 2016)

Slightlyconfused said:



			I train mine to leave balls if they are being kicked about. Takes time and practice and still the ten year old collie sometimes forgets his entire training 

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"LEAVE!!" ; It's the first word I teach. Can take a while though ;-)


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## stencilface (22 March 2016)

Fellewell said:



			"LEAVE!!" ; It's the first word I teach. Can take a while though ;-)
		
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Please come and teach my dog this, its infuriating trying to play with him. And good luck with that one (although I am considering the leave command with a cheese reward, now that would make him drop the ball  )


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## Bellasophia (22 March 2016)

Fellewell said:



			Yes and that's where the 'common sense' bit comes in but I like that you're deconstructing my post.
		
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HI fellewell.  ..., 
Where I live scenes like this...







are  an everyday occurrence...you turn a corner and there are a hundred sheep ...no fences..they are brought down from the mountains and there are three large ,very capable dogs with them...if your dog is not on lead it will be savaged or shot by the shepherd...






So yes,dogs ought to be on lead around sheep in my locale...
 As for " deconstructing " I leave that to the master chef programs  on tv...my dogs are very well trained,but when in an at risk situation,  I don't take risks...on the lead they go.


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## stencilface (22 March 2016)

Bellasophia said:



			As for " deconstructing " I leave that to the master chef profs on tv...my dogs are very well trained,but when in an at risk situation,  I don't take risks...on the lead they go
		
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This is it really, I like going places where the risks are close to 0 - lets just say there's always a chance for a ruddy sheep to be there, even on the beach/urban park! - but if I'm not, he's on the lead.


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## Bellasophia (22 March 2016)

Absolutely! It's common sense...so what is fellewell harping on about...deconstructing posts? it sounds like a wannabe trainer trying to teach the grannies to suck eggs IMO.


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## Clodagh (22 March 2016)

Polonaise said:



			Thanks  Loving the number of people implying I was walking the dog through a field of sheep with no lead on and don't care that it chased the sheep or that if any damage was done I would not financially compensate the owner (obviously cannot compensate for the emotional trauma). Read the post and clarification before judging. Slightly annoyingly the land owner the other side spent the day after the dog incident clearing trees and the sheep where clearly agitated by the machinery and noise, obviously if any abort I will have to pay as my dog trespassed but might not be entirely to blame.

As for shooting dogs before they've actually done anything just because they are loose near sheep, I'll remember that next time I come across escaped sheep on a bridleway and my horse spooks....actually I won't, I'll attempt to get the sheep back in the field or contact the owner, after regaining control of my horse even if it is inconvenient or involves some risk to myself or my horse. Everyone makes mistakes, not all dog owners are the same and dogs are not black or white, the majority fall somewhere between dedicated killers and perfectly trained, never put a foot wrong pooches whatever some of the posters on here seem to think.
		
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Sorry I wad not sounding to sound holier than thou and realise I probably did.


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## Alec Swan (22 March 2016)

Bellasophia said:









.
		
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An interesting pic.  The ewes don't looked to be 'heavily' in lamb,  and yet there are very young lambs with them.  I wonder if where you are they tend to lamb over a greater period and if the tups run with the ewes all year and so lambs are taken off as they become big enough,  or reach the desired weight.  Are the sheep 'Dorpers',  could you ask?

They even seem to have some cattle running with them,  by a public road and with no fencing.  Were I to do that here,  I'd be locked up! 

Sorry,  sod all to do with dogs! 

Alec.


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## Fellewell (23 March 2016)

Bellasophia said:



			Absolutely! It's common sense...so what is fellewell harping on about...deconstructing posts? it sounds like a wannabe trainer trying to teach the grannies to suck eggs IMO.
		
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Hi Bellasophia,

Thank you for posting your delightful picture. I lived in Milan for a while, just round the corner from La Scala. Not sure why you're watching Masterchef, the Italians know a thing or two about cookery, no soggy bottoms there!

My deconstruction ref alluded to lit crit where readers ascribe several different meanings to one piece of text. Analysis can be feminist or Freudian for example and usually mentions tunnels.

As for training, you appear to have blown my cover. I am indeed a teenage ingenue with all my own teeth. Ciao


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## Bellasophia (23 March 2016)

Hi fellewell..I'm a runaway ,off the lead,OTT,escapee from uk....I've been here for 24 years now and love it...but still hanker for the good old uk .I actually think your posts are thoughtfully written and have good content...we old schoolers have our ways,and can be abrupt,but hopefully keep an open mind and heart for the new generation.wE will no doubt agree and disagree,but hopefully keep harmony ...welcome on board.


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## Bellasophia (23 March 2016)

Alec that pic was taken in the spring..the sheep are brought down from the mountains and have their young..the road was a " pista ciclabile" ...we now have them  connecting city to city ,running through the countryside,so cyclists and walkers can walk for miles in relative peace from traffic..
 There are usually a couple of cows,and donkeys too..at least three dogs..Maramanna ,bergamasco etc..very serious guarding breeds.
  The sheep are huge..they are called pecorino here..used for milk and cheese..
My local farmer keeps one male sheep in with his cattle..he says it will kill any dog that enters his field..it is at least 40 kg in weight.
Right now the sheep are back in the mountains but the cattle have been brought out of the barns that they live in ,chained up for months at a time,to fatten them for slaughter...they at least have one dog living with them,and a thin electric wire,or string to keep them in the designated areas. occasionally they break loose and swarm the roads..then it's a party for sure,but generally they are docile and keep to their areas.


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## ester (23 March 2016)

I thought it was the narrowest road I've ever seen .


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## Luci07 (25 March 2016)

Sheep seem to cause a red mist with most dogs. I put a lot of work into training my second stafford bitch so I could hack out safely with her. We came across sheep (securely fenced, dog could not get to them) and she went into hyper mode. Never tried to desensitise or train her out of it as I had never seen her get so frantic and I won't risk it. Sheep means leads, even if a few fields away. Conversely when we had a stafford boy from a pup, he did learn never to chase other animals though pheasants were harder to understand. He legged it once after pheasants and the farmer took him to the dog warden later. Had found the dog in a field with sheep, sitting down and surrounded by sheep. Dog never chased pheasants again having got himself lost which was a good outcome. Farmer said the dog wouldn't even look at the sheep and was very pleased to be rescued. I would like to think my dogs have really good recall but sheep would be the ultimate test..


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## Alec Swan (27 March 2016)

I've just been to my sheep and found a shearling ewe with a hanging lamb.  A 'Hanging' lamb is a technical term!  She needed assistance but I couldn't catch the silly girl.  I went to the kennels,  loaded a dog in the back of the car and back we went.  He balanced with her perfectly,  I managed to get a cleek around her leg,  'asked' the dog to get back in the car,  and within a minute or so,  out came a huge single tup lamb.  The dog when he came to me had a death sentence hanging over him because he and his two siblings had been killing sheep and feeding on them.  He'll never make a serious dog for as long as he has two ears,  but he was a dog who learnt,  and as he's now ten years old,  and no one else ever wanted him,  I suppose that he'll stay here! 

Alec.


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