# 6 month old puppy questions



## dragonflys (19 October 2010)

My BC puppy is 6 months old now.

What sort of thing would you expect from a puppy this age?
She is 98% house trained, sleeps all night, is happy left alone for a while and now travels in the back of my car without any worries (used to be vv sick in cage in boot of car (4x4, not closed in boot!)).
She had quite a few bouts of diarrhoea when she was younger and she is now fed Burns puppy, 3x daily. She is fine with this, still rather skinny but coat shiney and she is very healthy now.

I have decided not to spay till she is over a year old,is this good?
When am i supposed to reduce her meals given she is still quite skinny?
How long do you leave a puppy of this age at night? I suppose the longest she is left is 7 hours, but i could do with a little more sleep - not getting any younger etc...

I am still really struggling with walking to heel, and she would still chase cars if she could, so any ideas would be great.
Tried half choke, no pull harness so far, lot of work in garden etc but minute we get to road all sense seems to leave her and i have to do some road work to get to get to footpaths.

thanks for reading


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## CorvusCorax (19 October 2010)

Sounds good, although she will need to be restrained in some form as it is illegal to have a dog loose in the back of a car.
I'd try cutting her down to two meals a day and phasing in adult/junior food.
Feed by eye, if she is skinny (and I mean really skinny, there is nothing wrong with a lean dog) add more, porky, cut it, the people who write the suggested amounts know nothing about your individual dog.

Each dog is different but my dog was out all night at that age and he could go seven hours without going.

You need to take the work you do in the garden out on to the road. Doing things in the garden won't help unless you take it outside.
I wrote you an essay  last time and I shall re-iterate (copy and paste)

"You need to work on focus at home, in the garden, and then take it outside. She is still of a good age to learn this - if she wants something, she has to be looking at and listening to you - IE her dinner, treat, a toy, if she wants in, or out - she must be looking at you and the longer you hold her gaze, the bigger the reward."

You can use a command like 'watch' or 'look'. If you're training this, do it on an empty stomach so she has to work for her food, you can pour some of her kibble in your pocket so her meal comes from you, and not a bowl. IE you, and paying attention to you = food.

See all those collies that do obedience and gaze up at their owners? That's focus, but it starts out at home, when you're pottering in the kitchen, when you're watching the soaps, give her the 'watch' command whenever you have a spare moment and reward her with a treat or praise.
Then out in the garden, then in the park, then out on walks.

Basically she will learn, all good things come from looking at you, if she looks or tries to chase cars, she gets nowt, or even a good strong lead-pop, don't be afraid to hurt her - if she goes under the wheels of a car, she will hurt a lot more.
Then when she looks back to you for guidance - praise and reward.

In time I would actually go to a busy road and just stand there for as long as it takes (tie her to a fence or lamp-post for extra security, if you like, but still hold onto the lead as well) and the more she learns to ignore the cars, the better the praise and reward.

....and me back in again tonight - if you have to march up and down a busy road for hours every night, then do it.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=8944622#post8944622


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## dragonflys (19 October 2010)

yes i remember your essay now. I suppose in so many respects she has been so good i had forgotten it, sorry 

We do the daily walking on road bit, so far no change but live in hope. Her 'tunnel vision' to cars seems impossible to break (to me anyway, with very little experience of this sort of thing).

I will start again in the garden.... thanks


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## dragonflys (19 October 2010)

ps, she is restrained in car - forgot to add that. I was just very pleased that she isnt travel sick anymore, v bad news for puppy and owner when it happens!


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## Echo24 (19 October 2010)

I work at the guide dogs and we generally don't do any proper training with our dogs until they're around a year old when they come into the centres. Having said that, I have a seven month old pug who is very treats orientated, so he's been very easy to train, (will sit, lie down, wait, go in his bed and give you high fives!) so it depends on the dogs really. Sometimes we get guide dogs as young as eight months come in as they are very bright. At this stage just praise and treat the puppy whenever she does something, like 'good girl to sit' when she sits and 'good girl to lie down', and this way you reinforce good behaviour. Hopefully this will build to her sitting when you ask her to sit!

At six months you can generally start weaning her onto two feeds (morning and evenings). I would say monitor her weight and perhaps increase her feeds slightly if you feel she's too skinny. At six months it's also a good idea to take her to the vets for a check up and to see how she's doing and he/she can give you some advice about her weight too.

At this age as well I would probably not recommend trying to teach walking to heel, as she's still young and still exploring the world! Walking to heel takes a heck of a lot of time and work and if she pulls a lot, particularly by traffic, perhaps use a halti?

As for leaving the pup over night, maybe build it up gradually? I usually give my pug his last toilet break at 9pm and get up at 6am to let him out and he usually manages to hold it in.

Good luck!


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## CorvusCorax (19 October 2010)

OK, no worries 

CF I know some breeds of dogs are more sensitive and don't need too much training before 12 months but I think an active breed dog like a collie needs occupying and with a dog like the OP's with this sort of fixation I think it is important to try and get focus in the bag in case, God forbid, she gets hurt or causes an accident.

I did not start working on my dog until he was 12 months and it was a very hard job, now I'm at a training class where even the baby pups are taught to focus and walk nicely to heel, it makes livestock-proofing, socialising with other dogs, cars/bikes etc so much easier IMO.

It's not regarded as some strict formal kind of enforced training but is an extension of play and an exploitation of a puppy's play/prey drive, something fun for which they are rewarded.


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## CAYLA (19 October 2010)

I would expect just whay you described, she sounds very normal, mine sleep longer than 7 hours, even the 10 month puppy cavi, she has slept over night from about 4 months, but she is crate trained but even when out of it she just sleeps, cos im a sleeperZZZZZZz no harm in increasing if she is not crying or telling u she needs out.

Re spaying , its your choice, she would be fine to be done now as she should be practically full grown, but the year mark is fine to or 8 weeks after a season.
The less seasons the less chance of mammary cancer when older.
There is a right way to use your training impliments, i.e checking correctly with the check and using a good lead that does not hurt your hands or hinder you to train with it, so good training lead, dog on left hand side lead in right hand and arm relaxed to waist height, and check sharply to the side not when dog is way out ahead already, a check should be firm enough for her to look up to see what the check was and she should associate it with the pull, when she is walking calm and lead is slack "no check" or as CC suggests a bit of focus, but make sure you have a good quality training lead.

As suggested, plonk yourself by a road and first flood her and see if she calms with frequent associaiton or check and "leave it" firmly, some use aids as a negative reinforcer, rattle bottle, water pistol, times very exactly.
Some use a postitve reinforcer to distract the dog with a postive, i.e a a treat for the return of focus from the dog.

As CC suggests, is she lean or skinny? most people will say to me "oh my dog is thin" and I think it looks perfect, I will have her down to 1 meal by now, but msot would prob have her on 2 at that age, my cav has been on 1 meal since about 5 months, she is not greedy and one meal is enough and her weight is perfect.


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## Ravenwood (19 October 2010)

I have a 9 month old BC but two older dogs too and to be honest she has learnt an awful lot of them so it has been plain sailing so far 

She was housetrained in a matter of days but it was hot at the time so I was able to leave the door open all the time she was in.

She is whistled trained (because the other two are) and again, she learnt it off them really.  I can honestly say that her recall to the whistle is 100%   She is learning stop whistle at the moment.

She has learnt sit and stay (ish) too.  

The only thing that I really had to teach her once and for all was NOT to chase sheep!!     I was quite tough on her but only the once and she has never done it since, infact now if she sees any sheep she stops and waits for me to catch up and walks along beside me 

I haven't really taught heel yet either, although by telling her to wait she will walk along beside me but not actually to heel as such.

My next step is to teach her down - but I am in no hurry at all, she is such an intelligent little thing that she picks everything up so quickly and easily.  We never really use the lead at all living here and being whistle trained is so important because I take them riding with me too.

She was on two meals a day very early on - all my dogs are fed twice a day.  She was extremely lean but is starting to put a bit of weight on now - actually she looks really healthy and fit.

She has never been travel sick either!

I think I have been lucky and got a good one 

This is my first ever BC and I am completely taken with her - lovely little dogs (although not so little!!)  Would love to try agility with her next year.

I think maybe she was expected to just fit in really rather than us doing anything to accommodate her, all the boundaries were set long before she arrived and none of them changed!

She has fallen into our family way of life and is an absolute pleasure to own 

Sorry, I can't help with the chasing cars - she doesn't get that opportunity but just about every farm BC I know chases cars up the farm drive!!


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## dragonflys (19 October 2010)

Thanks both for replies.
We go to start to learn to herd sheep every ten days or so, this is what she was bred to do and she loves it so much and it is something we are learning together.

This is all the 'formal' training we have atm, this includes how to behave yourself for puppies lessons.
She comes to the yard every day and spends many hours with horses and myself, but again i have to keep her on a lead, not only because of age, but because she wants to round the horses up. This started before we went sheepdog training btw.
Then she has a friend to play at least 3x weekly, just for puppy play. she sees and socialises with other dogs on a daily basis as well as lots of different people and places, but at all times she has a safe place to sleep or just be.
And then we do our walks every day, nothing big but just enough for interest and exercise atm.
I hope she finds it a happy life, i will never be able to provide her with her own herd of sheep, but i hope her life is stimulating enough without.

To date she has never eaten my furniture or shoes or anything she shouldnt have so i must be doing something right - i have seen what bored collies can do!!


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## CorvusCorax (19 October 2010)

Sounds like she has a fab life - I bet you the car chasing will settle down once she gets more into her work too, I know my fella calmed right down once I occupied that big brain of his


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## nikicb (19 October 2010)

My lab puppy is just coming up for 6 months.  As you would expect (all dogs being different), she is ahead of yours in some things, and behind in others.

I can happily leave mine 8-9 hours at night at weekends, 6-7 hours in the week, but she's not desperate to go out even then.  If I heard her whining at night I would get up to check, but that hasn't happened since we first got her.

I've just started seperating her from the other dog for periods of time (she's crated, but in the same room as our older dog).  e.g. took the older dog for an hour's walk on her own on Monday, and left puppy on her own.  No barking or whining when we returned, and no accidents either which would happen a lot in the early days (from anxiety I guess) even if I let the older dog out of the room just for 5 minutes.

I put her on 2 meals a day quite a while back, but mainly because I kept forgetting the lunch feed till half way through the afternoon.  That sounds worse than it is, but with children, horses, dogs and cats to deal with, I figured it was better her having the right amount twice a day than me forgetting.

We've just finished a 6 week puppy course and she will happily sit, lie down and walk on a long lead most of the time, especially if it is treat oriented!  Recall is fine on our own land (3 acres), but I would never trust her off the lead outside our gates.  She will leave inanimate objects (even food) when I ask, but I have no hope when she sees one of the cats or wants to go in the field with the horses.  Recall is definitely on our list for further work.

Hope that helps.  This is my first puppy so I'm not really sure what to expect, but many of the dogs in the class were way ahead of us, and a couple were behind.


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## dragonflys (19 October 2010)

oopps sorry, posts all crossed.
Thanks ALL for replies!

To me she looks skinny, i am due to go to vet for wormer/flea drops so i will get her weight checked then.

At no point has she ever called to go out at night so i will allow myself a little more sleep i think!
And start to cut out midday meal... i will break it to her gently!

And i shall find me a hot water bottle and chair and sit in drive to watch traffic.
I i post no more i have been taken away by men in white coats!
Thanks again


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## CAYLA (19 October 2010)

For some reason I read Border terrier, I have border terrier on the brain

Same goes for spay really but  border terrrier would be full grown at 6 months and a collie not far behind anyways, either between 7-8 months if she has not come in or after first season or a year


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## dragonflys (19 October 2010)

s'ok, def BC!
She is going to be a small version if she will be full grown in a few months.

And no season yet, not in any hurry!


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## Cinnamontoast (20 October 2010)

See, now I'm confused. Mine are nearly 5 months, they sit, go on their bed, in the cage, come to call, lie down, go 8 hours in the cage overnight happily. They are, however, already demons on the lead but some people are saying not to worry about heeling and just let them be puppies. I must say walks are far more pleasant if I let them be at the full extent of the lead, where oddly,they don't pull. 

Should I therefore not panic overmuch about their not heeling yet? I may just train them to walk to heel without the lead as the other two were-they were/are both superb without a lead, nose on ankle, virtually. 

Again with the neutering: what age? I think they'll be ready soon but I don't want to ruin things by neutering too early.

Will do a proper update at some point for the spangle massive with pics etc. Zak is 11kg and Bear is over 12kg: they are going to be very tall and Bear is going to be a stocky lad.


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## Pix (20 October 2010)

Loki is 6 months at the end of this week, and I've taught him a loose heel as well as 'close', where his shoulder is touching my leg (there's a lot of fairly narrow paths here!). We only do this in short bursts though, as everything is still so fascinating to him at this age, and his walks are for sniffing and exploring, even on a lead. However, he isn't allowed to pull. He can walk ahead or wander to the side etc, but the minute he puts his weight into it and starts pulling I start walking backwards, so he has no choice but to follow me. It seems to have worked well without having a formal heel, as he doesn't often forget himself and pull these days. Which is just as well as he was weighed yesterday and came in at 27.5k.

Re: cars, Loki started lunging at them around a month ago. I've mostly been doing what CC has advised, spending time on a busy road every day and really ramping up the focus training. I tend do do it in 15-20min bursts as that seems to be the maximum he will take before I lose his attention and he winds himself up. I haven't tried flooding yet, to be honest it would probably be quicker than the way I'm doing it 

Our focus was really shaky until recently, which puzzled me as he watches me quite closely in general, waits and makes eye contact before he's allowed a meal etc. Just not when asked or doing focus exercizes. It took me a while but eventually I decided it was a timing problem with the rewards, as he would glance quickly at me and I would mess it up. I introduced a clicker to improve the reinforcement rate and he's coming along much faster now.

Hope some of that rambling is helpful


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## CorvusCorax (20 October 2010)

Oh don't get me wrong, on our walks my dogs are out ahead on a loose line, they just aren't allowed to pull, as Pix says - they must come close and walk to heel when I ask them to (short bursts) and when we are passing people/sheep/cars etc.


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## Cinnamontoast (20 October 2010)

Pix said:



			Which is just as well as he was weighed yesterday and came in at 27.5k.g.
		
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Holy crap! What breed?!


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## Cinnamontoast (20 October 2010)

CaveCanem said:



			Oh don't get me wrong, on our walks my dogs are out ahead on a loose line, they just aren't allowed to pull, as Pix says - they must come close and walk to heel when I ask them to (short bursts) and when we are passing people/sheep/cars etc.
		
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I love the idea of this: let's them explore and be babies but also a safety line if needed! What length is your line? Is it just one of those extendable leads? Never really got on with those due to the boys wrapping themselves round trees etc!


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## Pix (20 October 2010)

cinammontoast said:



			Holy crap! What breed?!
		
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Allegedly a German Shepherd, although I suspect some Clydesdale blood has been introduced at some point


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## blackcob (20 October 2010)

cinammontoast said:



			Is it just one of those extendable leads?
		
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Extendable/flexi lead is a dirty word around here, shush before CC hears you!  A long line is much more useful, I started with 25ft and now use a 50ft.


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## Cinnamontoast (20 October 2010)

Pix said:



			Allegedly a German Shepherd, although I suspect some Clydesdale blood has been introduced at some point 

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I think you might be right! That's huge, gonna be a big lad! 



blackcob said:



			Extendable/flexi lead is a dirty word around here, shush before CC hears you!  A long line is much more useful, I started with 25ft and now use a 50ft.
		
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I sort of gathered this a wee while back: I must be so out of touch! Any amazing websites that people can recommend? Dare I mention the dread Pets at Home??


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## blackcob (20 October 2010)

cinammontoast said:



			I sort of gathered this a wee while back: I must be so out of touch! Any amazing websites that people can recommend? Dare I mention the dread Pets at Home??
		
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I think PaH have the Clix ones but they're very thin and a bit naff - this ebay seller is better and cheaper.


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## dragonflys (20 October 2010)

wow, am impressed! ive never had so many replies to one of my posts on any forum before!
Thanks for all replies.
Yes she goes in her basket, cage, comes to call (mostly), sits but not lay yet. She waits till i tell her she can have her food too.

If you use a clicker do you have to treat, or will praise be sufficient?

We did some eye to eye stuff in kitchen today, so thats a start


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## Pix (20 October 2010)

With a clicker I would definately stick to treats, you're aiming for 'click=treat is on its way, you did the right thing!'. 

Start by charging the clicker first. Basically sit there with a bag of really great treats, and every time you click... quickly give a treat. You want to make the association between click and treat as solid as possible.

After a couple of sessions of this (say 20 repetitions per session?) I would start to introduce focus before you click+treat. I use Loki's name, as it means one less command for me to remember  And I also want him to give me his attention when I say his name anyway.

The clicker isn't a replacement for a reward, it simply marks the correct behaviour and tells the dog that his reward is on its way. It's basically there to make the timing of the 'good boy/girl! *treat* more accurate. Doing this increases reinforcement rates (as in, we're reinforcing the good behaviour ). 

I had never used a clicker before, but it isn't hard to grasp. I would recommend that you read up on the theory about how it works first (won't take long). Just google clicker training etc. If you want to know more about WHY it works, google 'Skinner behaviourism'. When it comes to human psychology his theories are not flexible enough, however his strict behaviourism still holds weight in certain arenas and conditioning new behaviours is one of them 

I'd also recommed 'The Culture Clash' by Jean Donaldson, which CaveCanem recommended to me  It is by far the most sensible book on dogs I have read 

Hope that helps!


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