# Thanks Horse and Hound, NOT!!



## henryhorn (19 August 2011)

For those of us breeding/producing competition horses and good all rounders the very last thing we need is an article telling people the prices have dropped dramatically.
They may well have done at the very bottom of the market but good horses are still making decent prices. 
It costs me a minimum of £5000 to get a horse to 4, ridden and ready to sell, and that's just schooled to the basics, anything that has been competed costs far more.
Telling everyone prices have dropped drastically is a further lever for them to attempt to reduce what are already fair prices.
For anyone buying it must be music to their ears to read such an article, well it may well bite HH in the bum, because as their advertising costs are based on prices too, people will be asking less and paying for cheaper ads.. 
Good horses are holding their price HH, get your facts right in future..There is a glut of cheapies under £3000 but above that people understand it's only fair to pay a producer their costs.
And yes, I have someone viewing a horse as I type this, and am prepared for their arguement based on HH's article... I trust next time the journalist who writes this thinks a bit of people who earn their living selling horses, perhaps I should write an article stating all journalists' have agreed they are paid too much and can be offered a lower wage? !!!


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## BBH (19 August 2011)

TBH buyers have known its their market well before any H & H article.

I think they are just reporting what we all know anyway and  if rock bottom prices stop people indiscriminately breeding or breeding without a specific customer then i'm all for it. ( not saying this is you at all ).

Good horses will always command a better price, it may not be the price sellers are used to but they have a choice to sell or not at the price offered. Like anything else really.


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## TicTac (19 August 2011)

Whoa...........I think everybody has to be realistic in this current economic climate including breeders of top class horses! Just because there is a ' glut' of so called cheapies out there doesn't mean to say that they are rubbish horses. Some people can not afford to hold onto their animals and are being realistic in order to reduce their costs.

I dont think H&H for one minute was suggesting that you can go out and buy any horse at a price but they were correct in stating that it is definitely a buyers market at the moment and if you want a sale, price accordingly. Unfortunately,  that may mean in many cases, taking a drop or making a loss.

There will always be people willing to pay serious money for a good horse just as there are people out there who will be able to spot a good horse at a bargain.

Everybody, including breeders ( and I work for a very well known stud) need to realise that times are hard and that in general horses are a luxury. I know full well the cost of breeding and rearing a young horse to backing and beyond and a commercial breeder has to be as competitive in price as anybody else.  However I do agree that what is a fair price in the eyes of somebody trying to earn a living from breeding often differs from that of the client who doesn't understand the true cost.

This current financial climate is affecting everybody in every walk of life and like it or not, many businesses are having to make compromises in order to survive at the moment and the horse industry is no different.


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## TallyHo123 (19 August 2011)

TicTac said:



			I agree with TicTac on this.
If, as you seem to be saying, you are producing good quality horses you should have no worries. There will also be people involved in horses with the money and the knowledge of a good horse when they see one.
		
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## Enfys (19 August 2011)

moveon said:



			.
*If*, as you *seem* to be saying, you are producing good quality horses you should have no worries.
		
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*IF?* Are you familiar with HH's horses? 
I am thinking probably not considering your comment.  They are proving themselves very nicely.

If, I was into that field of competition I would certainly be looking at something with HH's prefix if it became available.


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## henryhorn (19 August 2011)

Thanks Enfys, we are mostly finding people are returning because they want another one, which is incredibly satisfying, and they are happy to pay a fair price. 
With the article however  it's a bit like Chinese Whispers, if I told everyone there was going to be a shortage of metal to make horse shoes due to the earthquake in Japan, you can bet your life sooner or later people would start buying spare sets of shoes for their horses!
The person who works at the stud above would soon moan if the article meant her bosses got less for their stock and decided they couldn't afford a stud groom any longer...
Selling horses nowadays means getting them out competing and seen to be worth paying for; my gripe is that article however well intentioned will quietly affect a lot of people. 
Yes there is overbreeding in the UK especially at the lower levels, 2 mins up the road from here are Dartmoor ponies by the hundred who really have so many conformational faults they shouldn't ever be bred. Most breeders with more than two mares are thinking really carefully what they are producing, and where their market lies, but according to the article prices are falling, whilst I know production costs are rising..
For those unfamiliar with what we breed, take a  look in video gallery under the title William. Do you honestly think it's fair people shouldn't pay a decent price for horses so carefully produced? 
To get a horse like him to 4, ready to go on and be someone's horse of a  lifetime takes money, time and effort.. It's only fair we get properly rewarded in my opinion.


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## sprite1978 (19 August 2011)

I was thinking this yesterday when i read the article, but to be fair, I was thinking about dealers in general. 

I was doing sums in my head.. If you were thinking of starting a dealing business.. to cover costs, including mortgage, rates, wages, feed, bedding, insurance, shoeing, vets , expenses involved in sourcing and transport. etc. and then take a wage for yourself, you would have to sell about 2 every single week of the year, with over £1000 clear profit on each...

Not easy to do! I was mainly thinking about dealers because I also read a thread about dealers being too expensive. I think the dealer they were refering to normally has horses in the £5-6k region.


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## Snowy Celandine (19 August 2011)

I understand and sympathise with what you are saying and I think you will find that nearly all markets are 'squeezed' at the moment, not just in the equine arena. Personally, I hate eBay because it has led people to expect top quality goods of all descriptions at rock bottom prices.  As you will know from your breeding activities, you cannot produce quality and charge peanuts for it 

A lot of people nowadays have completely unrealistic expectations of what they can purchase for their money and the sooner they realise that paying next to nothing ensures poor quality goods, the better. We all like a bargain but the old adage, 'You get what you pay for' still holds true in the majority of cases.


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## hollyandivy123 (20 August 2011)

i am on the other end of the process, looking to buy a 2-3yr old to bring on, what i am looking for will not be expected pop round badminton or high end dressage. what i am looking for is a fun safe proposition but is to be mw-hw and end up about 16hh. i have been looking for about 6months and so far have found nothing as described, some have even shrunk! but what i have noticed that horses have a vaired price tag which does not seem to be consitant. people who have bought at the height of the market are expecting to sell as if the market is still like it is. if you were to buy a house tomorrow, take mine which has dropped about 50k since 2007, if i was to put it on the market at that price i would have no takers, if i want to sell i need to price accordingly. (i am not make a pot shot at the original poster, who i have been looking at their website over the years, just an observation of the market in general)

so yes good horse will maintain their price, i think what is happening is the next layer down horse needs to adjust their price to sell, people have financial stretched and are more prudent with their money


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## FairyLights (20 August 2011)

I bought 2 really nice useful sort weanlings, to make 15.2 -16.hh. £400 an £200. both colts. coat of gelding approx £400 the pair. Good horses can be bought cheaply. there is over supply.


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## Kaylum (20 August 2011)

The problem is not with the breeders of good horses its the general economic climate in that people have lost their jobs, losing their jobs at short notice something has to go.  Its the cost of keeping and thats what is driving the cost of buying horses down.  I bought a clyde a few years ago for a month's livery and have never ever paid over 1k for a horse.  Dont need to. 

Its not just horses but thats what H&H writes about. If you have a look at the news its on there everyday about prices going up and wages going down and job losses.


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## Luci07 (20 August 2011)

Having looked earlier this year for a reasonable competition horse (something that really could go Novice) and selling my own (happily SJ at 1.20) I sold mine to the first person who saw him at a good price and my new one wasn't a cheapie either. I still keep an eye on the ads for eventers and the horses that have a competition record/good start are still being sold for reasonable money - I would say that they are the same sort of money as a couple of years ago. It seems to be the cheaper end/problem to sell horses who are more badly impacted.  I have seen a lot of "bargain" horses (almost meat money) for hacking/reschooling etc. Also on this board, there are a lot of people who want a safe gelding 6 - 8. for RC/low level eventing and are struggling to find any at the lower end of the pricing scale. 

Actually if you can produce a good 4 year old from scratch (breeding) to having a bit of a record and sell it for around the £5K mark I can't think you would make much money. I seriously looked at breeding from my old mare (very very good mare, intermediate event, medium dressge, graded and bred already to Di Maggio).. and after really adding up the sums plus risk worked out I would be in for at LEAST £5K without knowing if the horse would be right for me.


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## whiteclover (20 August 2011)

Kaylum said:



			The problem is not with the breeders of good horses its the general economic climate in that people have lost their jobs, losing their jobs at short notice something has to go.  Its the cost of keeping and thats what is driving the cost of buying horses down.  I bought a clyde a few years ago for a month's livery and have never ever paid over 1k for a horse.  Dont need to. 

Its not just horses but thats what H&H writes about. If you have a look at the news its on there everyday about prices going up and wages going down and job losses.
		
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I agree. Have recently sold my horse at a loss. Im currently selling my horsebox and havent had a single call.


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## henryhorn (20 August 2011)

That's the point Luci07, breeders don't make any profit whatsoever at that price which is why we have to ask more.
By the time you keep a stallion and a mare, invest in land/stabling and training facilities, worming/vet/farrier never mind your time breeding is a hobby unless you buy in 50 mares and produce on a mass scale. 
When people boast about buying a good horse (their opinion not necessarily mine!) for £1000 you can't help but think what about the poor devil who went to the trouble of breeding it for them.
What we are trying to produce are horses who will always keep their value because they are what people want. Sane, nice looking sound and talented horses will always command a good price and keep their value. Hence me getting fired up over the article as it really doesn't make that clear enough.


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## FMM (20 August 2011)

henryhorn said:



			When people boast about buying a good horse (their opinion not necessarily mine!) for £1000 ...
		
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Nail on the head HH!!! 
Sure - you can occasionally pick up a true bargain (usually because of some sort of personality disorder!) but a good horse will make good money. Not everyone is as fussy about looks and conformation as some of us


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## Kaylum (20 August 2011)

Tobehonest HH I couldnt careless if the horse I was so call "boasting about" buying for £1000 was your taste or not, it was perfect for what I needed thanks. LOL!  Not everyone buys and sells for profit in fact the horse in question was again a livery that could not afford to keep the horse anymore as the clyde I bought was.  Both bomb proof fantastic family horses.  Its just the nature of the financial beast at the mo.


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## SusieT (20 August 2011)

To be honest though if yuor business is not able to stand on its own two feet regardless of horse and hound articles then I'd be concerned.
There are a lot of horses about for very little money at the minute, some very nice horses included and prices are a lot lower than they were several years ago. Unfortunately breeders need to adjust.I would actually be interested to see how teh 5K figure for raising a foal adds up, andas you know it costs the same to raise a good one as a bad one. So just because it costs you that much to raise one doesn't unfortunately mean buyers will pay that much for each horse.


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## JanetGeorge (21 August 2011)

SusieT said:



			There are a lot of horses about for very little money at the minute, some very nice horses included and prices are a lot lower than they were several years ago. Unfortunately breeders need to adjust.I would actually be interested to see how teh 5K figure for raising a foal adds up, andas you know it costs the same to raise a good one as a bad one. So just because it costs you that much to raise one doesn't unfortunately mean buyers will pay that much for each horse.
		
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I'm actually selling backed 3 year olds for the same sort of money as I was several years ago - problem is - all my input costs have risen!  In the same time frame, my farrier has raised his prices for a trim by £5 - and for a set by £15!  My haylage has gone up by nearly £10 for a big bale, my vet costs by at least 15%!  and - funnily enough - I am now paying my staff more than I was 3 years ago.

£5,000 to breed a foal, rear it to 4 and back it nicely is rock bottom!  And it sure can't be done if you expect to pay yourself NMW!

Yes, there are cheap horses out there.  A client recently bought one - and as it's turning out, she was a bargain.  However, she had nasty scarring from an injury, big ?? over her soundness - and while she had been backed (barely) she had been out of work for months.  We've managed to improve the scarring considerably with Bio-oil, have found the cause of her previous lameness and some excellent (but expensive) physio should get it right and ensure no future problems, and she is now working nicely under-saddle!  All this has cost my client quite a lot of money - but it looks like her gamble will pay off!  It could have been very different - she might have ended up with a paddock ornament!

The problem with articles like that in H&H is that it encourages buyers to think ALL horses are cheap - and some are missing out on horses that would be perfect for them.  I had a buyer the other week - she wanted a top showing and dressage prospect 3 year old.  She LOVED the filly I showed her (she knew the price before coming to see her) but then turned around and said it was more than she wanted to pay - she had seen LOTS of horses that were £1,000 - £1,500 cheaper - she admitted that none of them floated her boat and none was as nice as my filly!  (No *****, Sherlock!)  But she still expected me to sell her my filly for the same price as the ones who weren't as good and that she didn't like anywhere near as much! 

So she's gone off to look at yet MORE fillies - spending an enormous amount of time (and diesel) trying to find one she likes as much as she liked mine - for £1,000 less.  Maybe she'll find one - maybe she won't!  Not many breeders 'give-away' top class graded fillies!


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## Steeleydan (21 August 2011)

Good/nice/quality  horses are still selling and always will, I saw the article in Horse and Hound and I hope it bites them in the bum and people stop advertising with them.
All that article will do is create more messers/timewasters than there already are, take JanetGeorge post for example a woman looks at a horse and says I can get it cheaper else where(or words to that effect). My answer to those people is "If you can find equal to what Iam selling for £1000 (like they say they can) go and buy it and I will give you profit on it!!)
When cubbing is under way I will be advertising a horse Ive bought to sell who is a big quality Heavy weight hunter who is a big gentle giant so easy to ride,well bred, if I dont sell him I will just keep him and hunt him myself he is that nice, too nice to give away, these types that carry a novice safely are like hens teeth.


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## siennamum (21 August 2011)

It's always laughable when there are reports of horses fetching rock bottom prices. Sure they are if you have £2k to spend and can afford to lose it. You try finding a sane, sound competition horse for less than £6k. There are always cheap horses to be had - until you are actively trying to find one!!!


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## Flashpaddler (21 August 2011)

We bought an eventer 4 months ago and I think we got a very,very good young horse for the money.  We paid 10% less than the realistic asking price and I considered this rock-bottom.  I knew how much effort and time had been put into producing him and I knew it would be disingenuous not to recognise this.  We got a real bargain but I'd be very surprised if the vendor made a "profit" given the effort put in to producing him.


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## TicTac (21 August 2011)

Flashpaddler said:



			We bought an eventer 4 months ago and I think we got a very,very good young horse for the money.  We paid 10% less than the realistic asking price and I considered this rock-bottom.  I knew how much effort and time had been put into producing him and I knew it would be disingenuous not to recognise this.  We got a real bargain but I'd be very surprised if the vendor made a "profit" given the effort put in to producing him.
		
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The old saying goes, " fools breed horses for wise men to buy"

Not taking anything away from breeders of good horses but as I've allready said, in this current economic climate even breeders of good quality horses have to accept that they might have to sell their horses at a slightly reduced profit or hold onto them, put more work in and hope that when the market does pick up, they can get a fair price for the horse.

No industry is excempt in this current climate and I think the general gist of H&H's article was to try and give sellers advice on how best to market their horse.


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## racingdemon (21 August 2011)

HenryHorn, I also think the differing messages you see both on this forum & in H&H (& other equine press) about the price of horses, how nothing is selling, that you can buy 3yo TBs for peanuts, that you can buy yearlings & 2yo for practically nothing & that with some schooling & training turn them all into wonderful competition horses (which you can do) all adds up to driving down the perceived cost of producing a horse to 4yo.... 

my Home bred 3yo currently owes us (on paper) £15k, a large % of that is stud fee, but he hasn't got the talent to go racing, so I am aiming to event him/produce him to a nice standard & if he isn't up to it I shall sell him as a RC/allrounder.... & I can kiss good bye to any return! 

All these racehorses that are coming out of training & being reschooled (which is great) is (i think) only driving down the percieved cost of buying a horse (& a nicely put together, well bred, sensible horse in many cases) 

take my 3yo, who in theory owes us £15K.... if i advertised him, I'd be lucky to get more than 1.5k..... for a lovely (biased) horse who can walk/trot/canter & has just walked over his 1st coloured poles this afternoon.... 

Don't envy you at all HH, and I do think that H&H (& other equine press) could do more to promote high end british breeders, rather than telling us we can buy a horse for nothing

& the PP who mentioned indescriminate breeding, this will go on whether horses are cheap or expensive, as long as you can buy a mangy colt for £50, & that studs need to get returns on thier stallions, that they will provide coverings for any mare (not all studs....but some 'studs' to use the term loosely, seem to offer very average stallions to even less average mares) 

lots of waffle.... but as a very very small scale breeder, just my 5p worth!!


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## henryhorn (21 August 2011)

As always you talk such sense Janet and put it so much better than me!
Good horses cost money to breed, it's that simple. 
I know you can pick up ex racehorses/ponies and many others cheaply, but my and your point is we are breeding horses that are the result of carefully thought out breeding plans, who are easy to train/compete/look good and stay sound.. 
Someone came to try a mare yesterday,  sadly it was way too big for her but she rang today to thank me and said she had been trying horses for quite a while, and she had never ridden anything so beautifully schooled and easy to ride. It didn't get like that by accident , we have put a huge amount of work into the basic product, a horse with a built in trainabilty and talent that is there because of the bloodlines we've used. .  
On it's first competition outings it's come 2nd in both dressage tests, won both it's first Hunter Trial and it's first ODE.  (led after the dressage) It's also sane, attractive and the sweetest nature, so I genuinely think it's far too good to be sold for a low price. 
Having taught hundreds of riders in my career the biggest problem was usually the horses they had just weren't up to the job. That was the reason we started breeding, to fill that gap. 
I have no problem with anyone buying a cheap horse for £1000, but please don't expect me to spend 28 years refining my stock to get frankly fabulous horses and sell them to people at a huge loss. I breed horses as a hobby so I do accept I have to subsidise it, but that old saying you get what you pay for does matter, there is a vast difference in a home bred horse that has had it's talent carefully produced and one that's been ridden by lots of Novice riders and learned bad habits.
Luckily the people I sell to appreciate that and are happy to pay, but that original article will as you say encourage everyone to believe all horse values have dropped, and they haven't. 
I do think youngstock prices have tumbled but ridden horses such as ours haven't dropped at all. I have found the most profitable way to sell is keep until 4 or 5 and then sell, foals/yearlings really don't make a fortune !


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## Naryafluffy (23 August 2011)

siennamum said:



			It's always laughable when there are reports of horses fetching rock bottom prices. Sure they are if you have £2k to spend and can afford to lose it. You try finding a sane, sound competition horse for less than £6k. There are always cheap horses to be had - until you are actively trying to find one!!!
		
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Agree with this, if you want to find a trustworthy horse then they are worth their weight in gold (and at $1900 an oz that makes them pricey), even if all you want is a happy hacker to get a sane one you probably still have to pay a bit more for them.
Horses are like cars, sure there are loads of cheap put-put's around, but if you want a supercar you have to pay the super prices.
I don't compete and just want to hack and work in the school (used to compete dressage so I still enjoy teaching the lateral work etc) but to find something I trust I would still expect to pay £4/5K, but having a sane horse is more important to me, maybe 20 years ago I would have enjoyed the cheap nutters a bit more, but I no longer bounce when I fall off I kind of splatter and stay they.


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## mystiandsunny (23 August 2011)

I do agree that quality horses should be worth more - and that breeding anything less must just put people in a loss situation time after time.  They cost money to keep, let alone produce!  

Bargain-wise, I have two well bred ones.  The first headshakes without supplement, and has mild EPSM.  I'm happy to manage those issues, but that's why she was cheap.  Her breeder made a loss on her.  The second was mucked up royally by someone and has taken over a year so far to get out competing successfully.  There was just so much to undo, and so many hang-ups to overcome.  If I were to add up the cost of supplements forever for the first, and the time taken to reschool the second, then I'd probably arrive at the price they would have been worth without their issues!   I bought both for less than the stud fee to breed them.


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## YasandCrystal (23 August 2011)

Luci07 said:



			Actually if you can produce a good 4 year old from scratch (breeding) to having a bit of a record and sell it for around the £5K mark I can't think you would make much money. I seriously looked at breeding from my old mare (very very good mare, intermediate event, medium dressge, graded and bred already to Di Maggio).. and after really adding up the sums plus risk worked out I would be in for at LEAST £5K without knowing if the horse would be right for me.
		
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I agree with this. To breed ANY kind of foal let alone a quality one if done correctly will cost a minimum of hundreds of £s, then add a decent stallion fee!! You only have to have a mare that doesn't take immediately or who has complications.  You cannot possibly compare some of the cheap youngsters for sale with a really well bred foal. It is not just around the question of whether a foal will ever be capable of a medium dressage test or to go around Badminton (that's a gamble anyway) - it is about having something of sound confirmation that will have a useful and hopefully sound working life. Whether it be Totilas or an unknown horse they cost the same in essence to keep.
So yes I agree with Henry quality horses will always hold value.


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## BBH (23 August 2011)

The thing I don't understand is why people will pay £000's for a foal no matter how well bred ( as despite breeding, performance can be a lottery ) vis a vis buying an under saddle horse for similar or often less money and have a chance of knowing what you've got ridden wise as opposed to guessing what you'll get with a foal. 

If you buy a foal for £6 - 8k it'll cost a lot to keep for 3/4 years, you then possibly have to pay someone to back it and then you could have spent upwards of £10k for a riding club level horse that would cost you circa £6k    

Is is a prospectors chance of getting a superstar for relatively little money ?


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## jsr (23 August 2011)

Papers and news has been full of the houses not selling and prices being low for the last few years. Despite this I put my house up for sale 4 weeks ago and have had 2 offers so far..one which I have accepted at not much below the asking price. When the first offer was made but was too low I didn't accept it, simple really.  Yes maybe some people came to view it expecting to knock me down but as I explained to them at the time I'm selling because I want to not because I have to so I'm in no rush and will hold out for what I know the house is worth. 

If you don't get the price you want then don't sell and wait for the next one, because there will be a next one if your reputation preceeds you. So I think one article in one magazine isn't really going to have much of an impact on your sales is it??


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## BBH (23 August 2011)

Your house or your horse ?

or are you giving an analogy.


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## DivaDream (23 August 2011)

If you're a hobby breeder and not a 'business', then perhaps it is time to scale your 'hobby operation' down.  Just a thought OP.


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## henryhorn (23 August 2011)

Divadream it's a business in that we submit accounts and pay tax, but a hobby in that we subsidise it. 
As successful business people in other fields it goes against the grain to run one that doesn't make substantial profits or at least cover your costs. 
What else would I spend my money on, exotic holidays? !!!


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## YasandCrystal (23 August 2011)

DivaDream said:



			If you're a hobby breeder and not a 'business', then perhaps it is time to scale your 'hobby operation' down.  Just a thought OP.
		
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I think that the OP is a very well respected and reputable breeder and producer, so not quite your average 'hobby breeder'. The horse world needs dedicated breeders/producers like this to improve the horse market so please don't scale down Henry!

It is probably the proliferation of much lesser 'hobby' breeders who lease or own one stallion and use any broodmares they can lay hands on regardless of temperament/confirmation/suitability/competition record to produce countless foals which will likely flood the market in time with lower grade hacks and make those who know no better believe that the market is at rock bottom.
Anything of quality whether it be equine, antique, car etc will hold a certain value whilst prices may otherwise tumble.


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## henryhorn (23 August 2011)

jsr You are probably right, people will pay fair prices for a good horse, it just annoyed me at the time reading the article. 
My reputation for selling homebred lovely horses will of course outweigh that article, and I'm currently updating my facebook Narramore Stud page with vids of our horses. 
The proof is in what the buyers say really after they get their horse home and enjoy it; we sell very few anyway probably two or three a year at most, so by the time we have one for sale that article will be chip paper...!


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## 1stclassalan (23 August 2011)

There's a saying "a recession never closed a good resturant" and following the theme of quality first - some people will always be prepared to cough up for some thing they fancy be it a great meal or a good horse.

However; when the news is full of doom and gloom ( though godknows why - Britain's GDP will still be £700billions this year!) and many folk have over stretched themselves in this particular market - it is undoubtedly newsworthy for the Number One periodical to run a feature of lowering prices.

Writing as someone who went through two massive recessions in the construction industry - who still managed to bring in sales at a profit - I'll say, it can be done but you just have to work harder!


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## ischa (24 August 2011)

Unfortually the prices are for everyone not just breeders breeding rubbish 
Unfortually  I have a well breed and good confo  2 yr friesian 
Which a couple of years ago would of got over 2000 for 
Today's prices I've been offered are 1500.00


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## FairyLights (24 August 2011)

there is oversupply. the cost of breeding the foal,raising it,training it,is irrelevant. If the buyers wont pay the costs involved then the breeders and producers need to reasses their plans and move into another field of work, if necessary. Hobby breeders can subsidise their hobby if they wish too. Some years ago a viewed a horse at £5,000. the breeder ,quite rightly said it had cost that to breed the horse and have it backed and schooled to 5 years old as it was then. I wasnt prepared to pay that. Not my fault the breeder had shelled out so much.


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