# Appaloosa's - Night Blindness



## sjp1 (23 October 2012)

Can anyone tell me what the blood test would be to see whether they test positive for night blindness or not?


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## Silverfire (23 October 2012)

There is no blood test. If they are white born (true fewspot/snowcap) then they are nightblind. All of them. Ive never known one have a problem with it, some are clever and hide it very well, others are bad in poor light, but they are born with it so to them its normal.


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## sjp1 (23 October 2012)

Oh, I logged onto 'Appaloosa Project' and it didn't seem 100% conclusive, and there appeared to be a blood test they could take to confirm if they were or weren't.

I am pretty much 99% sure mine is - he always 'looks' at darker areas on the road - if it has rained and marked one area as opposed to another, and we always use the torch when turning out in the dark, and he rarely 'looks' at anything on either side, which in the light he does.

Am thinking about keeping him in at night even in the summer - he seems to get a few knocks/cuts and generally I think, seems to be in the night.

I do think it should be better publicised - it wouldn't have stopped me buying mine, but I might have been better prepared or able to help him more.

And he is a few spot!


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## 2horsesnomoney (30 October 2012)

This is really interesting, I have never heard of it?! how interesting is it just apaloosas that are affected?


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## KarynK (30 October 2012)

Any horse can have CNSB, quite a few horses are nightblind and no one would ever know.  It is just that it is more prevalent in Appaloosas because it is linked to the genes that cause the coat patterns.  
The study in appaloosas, was poorly conducted and I would say it's comclusions are misleading, my whiteborn can jump a 4ft upright fence in the dark, lowering her head and neck to judge the takeoff, yet her mother who CANNOT have the problem according to that study has problems locating a black feed bucket on the darkest of nights.  They do vary hugely in what they can see,  but can see in moonlight and most you would never even know as they use their other senses to compensate.

I have shown the study to an opthalmic specialist who has reservations over the way it was conducted and the conclusions drawn from it.
You can test for the presence of the gene they have labelled Lp with a simple hair test if the horse is an appaloosa, according to their theory it will only be night bilnd if it tests LpLp, but like I say !!!


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## firm (31 October 2012)

I am sorry I am going to disagree with Karen on this one. When I first got into breeding spotties the old breeders I met told me all (true!)whiteborns were night blind. They told me it as a matter of fact. Subsequent to that I met more breeders who seemed to want to deny it in case it put people off spotted horses.  
So if you have horse that is a true fewspot take some precautions until someone can prove to you your horse has not got CNSB. 
CNSB is difficult to diagnose without the correct equipment as I was told by a top horse eye specialist. Horses are prey animals and can be very clever at hiding it. My fewspot mare could gallop down the field at full speed with the other horses and never got caught in a fence. If I had moved the fence into the middle of the field just before sunset then it would be a different story.  
They can managed very well and mine live out but just make sure they go into a new field etc early in the day. Some UK vets are not very knowledgable about it and even tell you it does not exist in the UK spotted breeds??
Better safe than sorry.

Edited to add  fewspot and whiteborn refer to the same colour pattern commonly regarded as horses that homzygous for LP gene. None of my non fewspots have been night blind which is the same findings as the breeders who told me about CNSB in the first place.


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## KarynK (31 October 2012)

Like I say I have real issue with the research and so do a lot of experienced appaloosa breeders here and in the States, many of whom have or have had fewspots and extended snowcaps that they say are not night blind, for every breeder that says all are affected there are others that say not.  They all know those horses well enough to judge.  If mine can clear a 4ft electric fence upright in the dark then there is not a huge problem with her vision. Another I have is night blind but she has no problems and of course I am careful with her moving fences etc, but someone meeting her would never know. I think the number for ordinary non appaloosa horses that are night bind is estimated around 20% from memory.
Like I say the veterinary ophthalmologist was less than impressed with the research paper, they ignored horses that did not agree with their theory completely.  Those horses excluded from that study were more interesting than the carefully selected low number of subjects and no attempt has been made to understand why those horses were affected and why some owners of whiteborns say they are not affected.  I have a theory why and I hope to be working with the specialist to carry out a study that involves assessment of the extent of vision, which should yield more useful answers.


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## AppleAlexis (1 November 2012)

2horsesnomoney said:



			This is really interesting, I have never heard of it?! how interesting is it just apaloosas that are affected?
		
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Not just Appaloosas but Knapstruppers too. any spotted breed I think can get it.


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## sjp1 (2 November 2012)

I am always careful with him over changing fields early in the day so that he has a chance to get used to his boundaries.

I am now more worried by the fact that he appears to have a mark in his eye which has moved from the bottom to the top - you can only see it in sunny conditions and have to peer quite hard..  I am wondering if it is a protein strand, but can't seem to find much information on the internet.

I am going to get the vet out I think to have a look.


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## stimpy (3 November 2012)

Apologies for hijacking but those of you with horses that do show night blindness can you describe the symptoms?  

I have a (non-Appaloosa) horse who shows very odd behaviour with particular light conditions, usually high contrast situations like shadows on a sunny day, he seems very uncertain about where he is putting his feet when moving through/over shadows. We have had a few incidents in the snow too, he's a very obedient horse but he couldn't bring himself step off a snowy track onto a scraped bit of tarmac, I am convinced that he thought it was a hole.

When I first got him I thought he was afraid of electric light, as he is very spooky coming onto the yard when the lights are on in winter. He can't find his feed bucket if I put it in a shadow and he hates to have the lights on in the horsebox if we are travelling after dark, he sort of tries to hide his face behind the breast bar. I have found that he is much happier with the head torch if I have it on red light rather than white light.

I had him checked out by two different vets, both of whom concluded it was probably neurological on the basis that they couldn't find anything wrong with the structure of his eye but no-one mentioned night blindness to me  Do any of his symptoms ring a bell?


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## firm (6 November 2012)

Hi Stimpy
Everyhorse is different but mine would be glad of the light on in the horsebox and a bright night with snow on the ground. It can be quite subtle because they really do handle it well and very quickly learn their surroundings. If your horse is the type to be very keen to come in at the end of the day, you might notice in daylight they march/pull you in but in the dark they will be more reticent /less confident.   
Is your horse more difficult/reluctant to load in the darK?
One of my fields has a muddy slippy step to neg. out. Put my nightblind horse in it, brought the horse in three days in daylight and she would just step out, fourth day late home and in the dark she stopped dead where the step was. She knew it was there and was concerned about neg. it in the dark.   You could try something like that but just be careful the horse does not trip up & fall on you. 
My horse was incredible, she used to walk the perimeter of the field before it got dark nearly everynight. I used to think it was just an odd habit but now I wonder was she just checking all boundaries before she lost sight.   

Have they checked your horse for uveitis? I am sure they would have done but it is something that would cause dislike of bright light.


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## stimpy (6 November 2012)

Hi firm

Thanks very much for your reply. My horse is a generally very well behaved horse and is very good to load but I have never tried loding him in the dark.  However, if we get home in the dark he is extremely spooky about getting out, he teeters about at the top of the ramp almost as though he is plucking up courage and then leaps out, it is like he is so uncertain of the ramp and the ground he is unloading onto that he is really fearful of what will happen.  This only happens if he has to unload with the yard lights on (there are loads of shadows), in daylight he comes off very quietly.  

He has a very characteristic stance when he is being spooky about the light and shadows, he stands with all his feet fairly close together and rocks his body forward and back without moving his feet.  Is looks for all the world like he wants to move forward but doesn't trust what he is about to step on and so he daren't move his feet. I am convinced that he doesn't see things quite 'normaly' and, as you say, he can be pretty good at coping with it except in some extreme conditions.

I don't think he has uveitis, I would hope that this would have been picked up when his eyes have been examined, his eyes never look inflamed and he doesn't show any signs of soreness. 

He does not however, like lights being shone in his eyes. The more I think about this, the more I wonder whether his problem may be that after being exposed to bright light in dark conditions, or glare/high contrast, his eye is slow to regain night or normal vision.  A bit like how some people are really dazzled by lights at night and can't see properly for some me afterwards.  A I said, red light does not have this effect on him so the wavelength must be significant.

If only I could see through his eyes for just a few mintes to try and understand what is going on


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## LazyS (7 November 2012)

I have two American Appaloosas with night blindness. One is an extended snowcap and the other is a white born few spot.
When I purchased the first as a weanling I knew nothing about night blindness but I began to notice that he was different with things, like finding buckets in the dark, be it field or stable. When I started riding him I noticed he peered at shadows and change of road colour. His eyes were assessed  as part of a stallion licensing system and the attending vet stated that the eyes were acceptable. He has always loaded happily in a trailer, perhaps because he knows that he goes to stud in a trailer! His few spot son however has always had worse eyes - first noticed when he was a foal and he refused to follow his dam into a dark stable, from a very bright and sunny yard. I had to reverse him in! After that I watched him very closely and even considered having him PTS - when I voiced my opinion to my vet he was horrified of course. He was difficult to load in a trailer as a yearling and consequently I didnt do anything with him show-wise until this year as a 3 year old. I felt that it was the light into dark thing! I did some round pen work with him with the trailer ramp down in an opening and after successfully loading him he then decided he would go in on his own, I had to shut the ramp to keep him out! Now if we are going anywhere he will eventually go in but he always asks questions first. Other than that he is a delightful chap, and I have started backing him, sat on him a couple of times and he doesnt bat an eyelid (pardon the pun).  Now that the darkness is upon us in the evenings I can liken him to a moth as he follows my head torch around the field while I am poo-picking! He did manage to walk into the wheelbarrow and tip it over and his face said where did that come from! I have to stand next to him if he eats in the dark as he cant find it unless the head torch is on it. I am also very mindful of moving fences late in the day. I found a good solution when I barred their usual walkway, I threaded a strand of white tape along the ground secured by the plastic posts and this works a treat as he seems to look down at it. His field companion (an American Quarter Horse) is long suffering I can tell as he does tend to stick with him and be a bit upset when I take him out to ride him. 
I think there are many many horses out there with night blindness and most hide it successfully. I did read somewhere that it could never be bred out of them, though I am careful now who I put my boy to, solid coloured mares are best, or marbled appaloosas, IN MY EXPERIENCE putting him to leopard mares seems to produce night blind youngsters though I will probably be criticized for saying that  He is not bred very often these days so dont worry world, and I am very selective now that I am more knowledgeable shall we say. But they are both very loving horses and I wouldnt change either of them


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## sjp1 (12 November 2012)

Oddly mine is far less spooky in the dark.  He trusts me to follow the torch when turning out in the dark and it is a field he knows with horses he knows. 

In the light, he will 'look' at silly things when going out to the field, because that is him, in the dark he doesn't, which leads me to believe he must be night blind.  He also sometimes trips going up into his stable block (which is sloped upwards) when it is light outside but darker inside.

I have never had him refuse to go anywhere, except when I first got him.  I believed him to be being difficult about going into his stable (different yard and four years ago).  Now I understand he wasn't being difficult, he couldn't see into his stable and he didn't know me and couldn't trust me that it was OK.

I personally believe that it should be made more apparant to people who buy appy's.

I love mine, and would never get rid of him, but it isn't really fair if people don't know - they would certainly not push their horses unnecessarily over issues that few spot appys appear to be stubborn over - especially when you first have them and they are unsure of you and where they are.


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## Kearneyse (13 November 2012)

Help everyone

I've had my 3yo extended blanket no spot appy 3d now. Because of my job, I see my horses in the dark - they live out. I'm used to seeing how they behave at night. 

My new boy cannot find his feed bucket. I had to change his water bucket to large white one and illuminate it so he could drink tonight. When i turned my headtorch on he breathed a sigh  of relief and came to see me. I'm pretty sure he is nightblind.

He has electric fencing  all around to separate him from others and no obstacles. I do have stables. Should I be bringing him in. If I do, what lighting should I provide?

All advice v gratefully received.


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## LazyS (14 November 2012)

Kearneyse - is the electric fence tape white? If you look at electric fence from a distance (during the day) I sometimes can't see it myself so imagine how a horse would feel. If I shut off a previously used gateway I tie white plastic carrier bags in the middle, or strong white feed sacks cut into strips and tied around. Shame that new appy was unable to get used to you and his surroundings before the days got shorter and night gets in much quicker. But please bear with him. Don't separate him from his new friends forever he will pick one out and befriend it and follow it around in the dark. I wouldn't shut him in, that's not fair and not natural (in my opinion). If you do decide to bring him in at night normal lighting will be ok and when he is in the dark he only has the four walls to touch and he will quickly find them and remember - that's what whiskers are for. Don't forget that (some) appys are born with this so it is normal to them, not something that has suddenly happened. Mine get the light coloured feed buckets, though my youngster usually tips his food out anyway and eats off the ground! I usually sit a lantern on the ground (out of reach) in the feeding area while I go about doing the other evening chores (poo picking with the head torch!). Hope that helps.


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## Kearneyse (14 November 2012)

Thanks V much. That's v helpful
Electric fence is white and on so it clicks. I've just been out to buy some solar lights to put in the ground  along the fence boundary and outdoor lights to rig up near his water.

I hope to turn him out with my other 2 this weekend as he seems desperate to be part of the gang already. Someone suggested fitting the others with a bell for easy location. Is that a step too far?

Interestingly, stud denied ever having a problem with nightblindness ( and I believe that they believe this). But his behaviour at night is so different to my others that I'm suprised it was not noticed.


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## sjp1 (14 November 2012)

I don't think the others will need a bell IMO.

Just turn him out with them in the light and let him have lots of time to get used to each other.

Another thing I never do is shave his whiskers off - because I think it helps for the whiskers to touch first.

And as someone else said, this is normal to them.  When it gets too dark for you to comfortably read, they are in darkness and will have been from the moment they are born, they don't know any different.

I found the Appaloosa Project very informative and interesting - worth reading IMO.


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## LazyS (15 November 2012)

Kearneyse said:



			Thanks V much. That's v helpful
Electric fence is white and on so it clicks. I've just been out to buy some solar lights to put in the ground  along the fence boundary and outdoor lights to rig up near his water.

I hope to turn him out with my other 2 this weekend as he seems desperate to be part of the gang already. Someone suggested fitting the others with a bell for easy location. Is that a step too far?

Interestingly, stud denied ever having a problem with nightblindness ( and I believe that they believe this). But his behaviour at night is so different to my others that I'm suprised it was not noticed.
		
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Be careful with strings of outdoor lights - they are not designed to break if a horse runs through them! All the fencing I use will break if it is crashed through and it has happened! 
Probably OK if they are individual lights but beware Appaloosas love to chew things and play with them LOL.... I try not to leave anything within reach. They are just so curious, and intelligent and like to be doing things - you have been warned LOL. Good luck.


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## Kearneyse (15 November 2012)

He is a happy Appy now- lit up water container and out of reach solar lights.

One of my horses is a bit of a git to others- not psychopathic, just dominating. The other is a pacifist. If would be difficult to seperate them but I am concerned about what may happen in the dark. My new boy could be a sitting duck.

Obviously I will introduce them at beginning of day and supervise. Thats why someone suggested a bell- they'd heard of this for a blind horse with companion.

Any thoughts?


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## LazyS (15 November 2012)

I have visions of a pond-like water feature all lit up with fishing gnomes LOL How lovely, lucky boy. I don't have any trouble with mine finding water as a rule. 
As to the companion : my youngster is in with a no-nonsense quarter horse who, when he gets fed up, lets it be known!! Noticed he had teeth mark on his neck this morning!! Sometimes I separate them, especially if I want to show the youngster. My stallion is in the paddock on his own and finds everything no problem, but it has been 'his' paddock for the last 8 years so he should know his way round by now. Being a stallion he is a might too playful to put one of the others in with him - I don't fancy the vet bill! But that doesn't help you does it? A friend has a night blind appy and another horse and has just put another appy (solid coloured so not nightblind) out with them, they are sorting themselves out, they have to sort out the 'new' herd, who fits where, and who is dominant and who is submissive, its interesting to watch them, but I would say that you should let them sort themselves out, but not sure that back shoes are a good idea.


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## Kearneyse (15 November 2012)

All v helpful thanks.
Place does look a bit Santa Grotto now. Waiting for people to complain as in Chilterns AONB! But most of the locals are soft on animals so should be OK.

Lenny is the 1st Appy I've ever really known. I confess in the past I was not keen- put off by straggly tails. But he is the most elegant gracious intelligent horse I've owned,  even after a few days. I am entirely won over and cannot wait to sit on him.

His problem is not really a problem- we can manage and I think it may make him, if anything, more trusting.

Its been good to hear of others experiences- keen to hear more Appy stories.


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## Vickijay (17 November 2012)

Should I be worried about my knab girlie having this? It sounds silly but how would I know?


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## Kearneyse (18 November 2012)

Sorry cannot comment on knabstruppers as novice in this but now realise all few spot and snowcap appys must be night blind because of their genes.
My new boy gave me heart stopping moments last night as he seemed to play with and pester his new companions well after dark. However they seem to have afforded him goal privileges as he was allowed to share dominant horses hay ( and feed ) by daybreak.
Horses are amazing. He seems completely adapted to his state.


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## LazyS (18 November 2012)

Vickijay said:



			Should I be worried about my knab girlie having this? It sounds silly but how would I know?
		
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"If it isn't broke, don't fix it!" If your spotty is the leopard spotted one on your signature thingy then I would not worry. I looked it up once - Congenital Stationery Night Blindness (CSNB) it seems to affect other horses and dogs as well as humans. 
I can't see in the dark - can you? 
In the Appaloosa it seems to affect horses that are born white, have only a few spots, or have a snow capped bottom - ie an area where there are no spots or dark hair or markings, be it minimal or extended. Look up the Appaloosa Project, some may question it but I think it helps to understand.


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## lindsayc31 (18 February 2013)

Hi all, I have just been doing some research for my own benefit and came across this thread so hope no-one minds me jumping in! I have a coming up yearling chestnut based snowcap colt, dad is blanket spot and mum a few spot. We moved yeards about a week ago and I have noticed that Emrys can't seem to find his black feed bucket anymore. This morning I was down at their field to feed the 3 I have at round 6.15am, my previous yard had lights on the fence and stables with lights outsidethem as well as inside and the field was very close to stables so you could see pretty clearly. The new yard has more grazing but its down the end of a track away from arena lights etc so much darker. Emrys heard me as I was putting out buckets, the other 2 (1 spotty pony mare and 1 TB) had no prob getting to their bucket but Emrys walked towards his then stood looking quite forlorn, as if he thougt he wasn't getting fed. When I called him again he came over and bumped into me before I managed to get him to 'sniff out' his bucket. I had hoped to keep him entire at least long enought to cover my TB mare but I am now concerned for his well being and that of any future progeny. Would it be better to geld him as soon as he is ready? (nothing really happening in the dropping of bits department yet!) I adore my baby boy so wouldn't part with him for anything. funnily enough, I have had some issues with finding electric fencing that has been brought down, I put it down to the spotty mare as she is a hooligan when she wants but am now wondering if the pair of them have run into it because they couldn't see it??


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## Passtheshampoo (18 February 2013)

Didn't know there was such a thing in horses. I have an Irish Setter and they can have problems with night blindness. They are genetically tested and only those clear are allowed to be KC reg. The Animal Health Trust have recently identified another strain, guess that's what happens with an ever decreasing gene pool. Are there any restrictions on breeding from affected horses or is this not possible if they are all affected?


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## lindsayc31 (18 February 2013)

As far as i can tell it isn't recommended to breed to another few spot or leopard spot, non appy or solid coloured seem to be ok. Any further info from anyone would be greatly appreciated! X


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