# DIY yard rule regarding when to muck out..



## BroadfordQueen (3 September 2014)

Does anyone else keep their horses on a DIY yard with a time limit to muck out by? My yard has suddenly decided we need to muck out by 12 midday. Wasn't an issue before and I have always been first on yard in mornings and mucked out by 8am but new job means this is going to be impossible.. can't afford someone to muck out for me, not keen on moving yards as horse is settled and happy- especially if this is a common rule on all yards (first yard I have ever been on as kept horses at home previously). Does this seem a fair rule, even if you have turned out and seen to all your horses needs, but don't have time to muck out until the afternoon?


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## Palindrome (3 September 2014)

I have never been on a yard with that rule. Although I understand the YM wanting his yard tidy, I wouldn't be able to do it either. Have you had a chat with the YM to see if a solution can be found? Perhaps someone else is not mucking out regularly and it is the YM's attempt to get them to tidy up?


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## mynutmeg (3 September 2014)

seems daft - my previous yard the horses were turned out for us and then I'd do them in the evening so no mucking out till evening time


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## BroadfordQueen (3 September 2014)

Palindrome said:



			Perhaps someone else is not mucking out regularly and it is the YM's attempt to get them to tidy up?
		
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I know that this is exactly why they've done it, and I will have a chat with YO, but don't want to create any bad feeling with other liveries of "she can so why can't we". I'm hoping a quick skip out of worst of the muck will suffice until I can properly muck out in the afternoon.. not a problem at the mo anyway as horse lives out at night, but they will be coming in for winter frightfully soon!


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## dogatemysalad (3 September 2014)

I have been on some yards that have this policy. When the horses are stabled in an American barn, it's understandable. For horses with respiratory issues, being stabled next to a smelly stable isn't good and standing in while the next beside them is mucked out means lots of dust/spores etc  being tossed around. 
 It's not the end of the world but having beds done in the morning is better practice, although it does make life a bit more of a rush for people who need to leave very early in the mornings.


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## Boulty (3 September 2014)

Nope, never heard of it in a DIY setting I'll be honest (full livery yes but they have a routine to maintain and need beds ready for a set time to bring in). I'd be stuffed if that was the case as I work a variety of odd shifts!


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## chestnut cob (3 September 2014)

Nope never heard of it and I wouldn't stay somewhere with a rule like that, would make my life impossible.  In winter I rarely get to the yard in the mornings because I travel so much with work.  Horse gets turned out by yard, brought in by them in the afternoon, given a hay net and then I muck out a bit later on. He doesn't appear to have any ill effects from coming back in to an un-mucked out bed that I muck out about an hour later.  And for all the people on here who'll tell you they get up at 4am every day to muck out before work, I bet the majority do the same as me!!


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## Sugar_and_Spice (4 September 2014)

I've never heard of this rule OP. I won't even go to yards with turnout and bring in times. I'll happily accept a rule that horses must be in at night but not if there's a time limit, other than sensible (ie late) closing time for the yard. I want my horses to be done at my convenience not somebody else's.


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## Toffee44 (4 September 2014)

Goes against the meaning of DIY I would say.


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## Echo24 (4 September 2014)

I used to loan a horse on a yard with this policy. It is restrictive and I wouldn't be able to do it as some days I'm up so early for work I don't have time to do all jobs in the morning.


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## chocolategirl (4 September 2014)

Don't have this rule on my yard but in an ideal world, I would love to see ALL stables mucked and ready for horses to be put into by midday but as I turn out the majority of the horses on the yard, this just isn't feasible. Even if I wasn't turning others out, I can't see me enforcing such a rule, as much as I would like to!


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## teasle (4 September 2014)

Surely as long as you shut the stable door the yard will not look untidy. At my old job I started work at 7.30 and thought I did well to feed and turn out before work .Present job does not start till a respectable 9 am, but in the summer it s nice to ride for half an hour before work , and if I do I muck out later in the day.


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## Tinypony (4 September 2014)

I hate it when YO's use a sledgehammer to crack a nut.  If they are unhappy with one livery they should tackle that direct.  Maybe ask if the rule could be amended to all stables to be mucked out before horse put back in?

Winkingwillow, I'm just wondering, why would you love to see all stables mucked out by midday?  What purpose does that serve apart from cosmetic?  On a DIY livery yard all that needs to happen is that people need to muck out before their horse comes back in.  I can understand it being different on a livery yard where staff do the mucking out.


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## Fides (4 September 2014)

Some places have this rule if they have wooden stables as wet bedding causes the bottoms of the walls to rot. Others have it so that if there is an emergency and the horse needs to be brought in, the stable is ready ie bed done, waters filled, net done. In an ideal world, brilliant. In reality not so easy.


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## Joyous70 (4 September 2014)

I have never been on a yard with this rule but have heard of similar before. 

It wouldn't suit me at all, i start work at 7.30am and have to have left the yard by 6.50 at the latest in the winter, most mornings all i find time for is a quick breakfast, skip out and turn out before dashing to work, and no i wouldn't be prepared to get up any earlier, 5.30am is plenty early enough for me with a full time job as well.


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## Evie91 (4 September 2014)

Don't think my yard has this as a rule but it was definitely an expectation. I was on part livery but for DIY'ers. Yard owner wanted a clean and tidy yard. If people looked round creates a good impression to be clean. It definitely would have been frowned upon to put a horse back in a filthy stable. I wouldn't have wanted my horse bought in next to stables full of muck( in an American barn set up), especially in winter when they were bought in earlier. I wouldn't have been impressed when looking round if the stables had not been mucked out.
TBF think all owners there had the same high standards regarding horse care, so it was never an issue ( I mean - never a problem with owners not turning up, or not doing jobs etc), so never needed a 'rule'.My old yard owner chose clients carefully though so we had a really lovely yard and none of the nonsense that you hear about on other yards!
Not trying to criticise you op - if your set up works for you. It's hard when work gets in the way of ideally what we would like to do! just giving another perspective


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## Dave's Mam (4 September 2014)

I'd rather muck out late & put them to bed in a clean bed.


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## Goldenstar (4 September 2014)

I can't bear unmucked out boxes so if I had a DIY yard I would have to have this rule


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## Kadastorm (4 September 2014)

This rule simply wouldn't work at my yard, some people have to go to work and if they have 2 or 3 horses, it's impossible. I turn out in the morning, leave a fresh Haynet and someone brings him in for me on the days I can't bring in. I muck out when I get there. Some days I can muck out in the morning but that depends on shifts and lecture times.


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## Embo (4 September 2014)

I do everything in the morning. I'm up at 5.20, at the yard by 6, all jobs done to be home by 7 and in work by 8. I manage easy enough, however bleary-eyed I might be lol. By the time Friday comes I'm like the walking dead!

When I had my old horse, I had to be at the yard by 05.30 to get everything done as he was so filthy, it took me so long to muck out. Muddled on like this for a while, then one day a bunch of signs appeared saying 'Opening Hours: 6am - 9pm'. In a panic, I ran round to YO as I was certain I wouldn't be able to cope with this. As soon as she saw me, she told me it wasn't becuse of me and I'm fine to still come up early, the signs were to stop a crack-pot livery from coming up to the yard every two hours through the night to check on her horse's mud fever! YO lives on sight so it disturbs her and the dog when people come up after closing. I was so quiet in the mornings she didn't notice I was there, she said.

Sometimes it can be a passive way to stop undesireable behaviour. Not ideal, I think if you're doing something wrong, you should be spoken to. 

However, I hate leaving a dirty bed and really feel strongly to get it done and ready before horse comes back in. So that's what I do. Some people just can't do it so I don't agree with the rule stated in OP. 

I think OP should speak to YO as they may be able to compromise.


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## Carrots&Mints (4 September 2014)

Weird never heard of that! I go up once a day to mine (hes in 24/7 this week) but he has a massive stable so doesnt stand all day in his *****


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## chaser81 (4 September 2014)

Yes my last yard had this policy, one of the reasons being that it meant the yard was clean and swept for the afternoon whereas if people were mucking out all day it was always a mess as people seem unable to clear up after themselves.


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## teasle (4 September 2014)

Goldenstar said:



			I can't bear unmucked out boxes so if I had a DIY yard I would have to have this rule
		
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Even if the door is shut and the task not your worry? It is just that life ican be hard for shift workers to fit in jobs before work. These jobs are often not highly paid so paying the yard to muck out would be too expensive on a regular basis. And peoples' lives change,while they continue to own a horse .. They may have to take jobs with les than ideal hours. There are enough horses without proper homes to dump on the market those horses that belong to shift workers.


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## Char0901 (4 September 2014)

I've just moved to a livery yard from my friends stables. Its mainly DIY but you can ask YO if you need full livery for a day or so or even just an afternoon for minimal fee. 
The yard is quite big but everyone does their own thing. The YO goes round and puts morning nets and feeds in if they're left outside the stable at about 8am (for free). I'm usually already there as I'm not working at the minute.
There are lots of people who don't muck out until they get there after work or whatever.
This rule certainly wouldn't work on my yard. I'd feel that YO was trying to make more money by making it difficult or virtually impossible for people to adhere to this rule. If you can't do it, but MUST follow the rule whats the other option? Paying the yard. I'd be a bit miffed to be honest.


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## Copperpot (4 September 2014)

I was on a yard with this rule. Due to odd shifts I was on full livery so didn't affect me. But if someone on DIY hadn't mucked out by I think 11am, they would do it and charge you.


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## teasle (4 September 2014)

Also- does no one else sometimes want to ride first while their horse is dry , ready and waiting , rather than turn out, muck out, then catch up again?


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## Toby_Zaphod (4 September 2014)

We don't really have any rules on our yard, we just use common sense & the yard is tidy, clean & a wonderful place to be. I'm fortunate that I can get to the yard every morning & turn out & muck out first thing. There is another person that can't get there first thing so she comes down in the afternoon & mucks out. Yes it's nice to see all the stables mucked out & pristine by mid morning but honestly does it really matter?

We are a small yard with only 4 horses & don't feel the need to have the numerous rules that I read about on this forum.


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## Fides (4 September 2014)

teasle said:



			Also- does no one else sometimes want to ride first while their horse is dry , ready and waiting , rather than turn out, muck out, then catch up again?
		
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I muck out with the horse in the stable. Feed breakfast, do jobs, then if enough time has past then ride. I used to have a horse who knocked over the barrow and I would just tie him up in the stable with a net on the 'unbedded' bit, and muck out around him


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## Fides (4 September 2014)

Toby_Zaphod said:



			Yes it's nice to see all the stables mucked out & pristine by mid morning but honestly does it really matter?)
		
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For horses with respiratory problems in a barn setup, yes it does. And as I mentioned earlier - wooden stables left with wet in will rot, especially if it is mares who pee up banks.


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## abb123 (4 September 2014)

Terrible rule for a DIY yard. Fine on a full livery and can see the point there but not on a DIY.

Can't think of one reason other than for purely aesthetic reasons, which is just silly considering the practical implications it would have on the clients. It would be a sign of a bonkers YO to me and I would never ever move on to a yard with this rule as it would suggest that there would be other daft and impractical rules too.

I can however completely understand a rule saying that stables must be mucked out at least once a day. That is reasonable


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## Dave's Mam (4 September 2014)

abb123 said:



			I can however completely understand a rule saying that stables must be mucked out at least once a day. That is reasonable 

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Absolutely.


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## JulesRules (4 September 2014)

Ridiculous! It sounds to me like to YO wants to make more money by paying her to muck out if you can't do it in the morning. 

Surely the whole point of DIY is that you can have a routine to suit you and your horse?

On my last yard my friend and I used to take it in turns to do mornings. We would turn out both horses but just muck out our own stable. The other one would come down later, muck out and then bring both in. Under this rule we would have had to muck out each others stables in the morning as well to make that work. 

On my current yard the yard T/O and B/I, so I go up once a day or twice a day depending what I have on. If I go down in the morning I tend to muck out, but then I end up mucking out again later on as she will have trashed her stable again by the time I get there, so if it's about the yard being swept it wouldn't help. If I just go down in the afternoon she has to go back into a dirty stable, and do you know what...she doesn't care! She's a horse and is happy to lie down all night in her own poo. Standing in a dirty stable for a couple of hours really is the last of her worries


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## abb123 (4 September 2014)

Fides said:



			For horses with respiratory problems in a barn setup, yes it does. And as I mentioned earlier - wooden stables left with wet in will rot, especially if it is mares who pee up banks.
		
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Horses with respiratory problems should be in airy well ventilated stables not stuck in the middle of a barn. 

All horses I have known with respiratory problems have had stables on either end of barn so near a door or window or have been not been in a barn specifically because barns can be dusty if poorly ventilated.

Also you would think that a horse with respiratory problems would be getting lots of turn out so would be out during the day anyway!


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## Janovich (4 September 2014)

This could be me being a little suspicious about it all,..but it sounds like a money making scheme on the YO's part to me.

I personally would not touch a yard with such a rule,.. a little ridiculous to expect in my humble opinion.


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## Fides (4 September 2014)

abb123 said:



			Horses with respiratory problems should be in airy well ventilated stables not stuck in the middle of a barn. 

All horses I have known with respiratory problems have had stables on either end of barn so near a door or window or have been not been in a barn specifically because barns can be dusty if poorly ventilated.

Also you would think that a horse with respiratory problems would be getting lots of turn out so would be out during the day anyway!
		
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Of course... But even with that having stables stinking of ammonia won't help. Not all places offer 24/7 turnout, and in summer some have night turnout and in in the day. 

Not an issue with my horses but I can see where YO are coming from if it is a barn set up.

I wouldn't leave mine unmucked out, simply because I don't want my wooden stables to rot. My last place had wooden stables that had been deep littered and all the bottoms were all rotten and splintered. I had to use banks to cover them up, even though I don't usually bother as I was feared of them getting a leg stuck under


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## abb123 (4 September 2014)

Fides said:



			Of course... But even with that having stables stinking of ammonia won't help. Not all places offer 24/7 turnout, and in summer some have night turnout and in in the day. 

Not an issue with my horses but I can see where YO are coming from if it is a barn set up.

I wouldn't leave mine unmucked out, simply because I don't want my wooden stables to rot. My last place had wooden stables that had been deep littered and all the bottoms were all rotten and splintered. I had to use banks to cover them up, even though I don't usually bother as I was feared of them getting a leg stuck under
		
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Very few stables that are mucked out everyday will smell that bad that it causes a problem. If it is a problem then a far easier solution is for the offending stable to change to a super absorbent bedding, such as wood pellets. This would also solve the problem for wooden stables too.


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## Fides (4 September 2014)

abb123 said:



			Very few stables that are mucked out everyday will smell that bad that it causes a problem. If it is a problem then a far easier solution is for the offending stable to change to a super absorbent bedding, such as wood pellets. This would also solve the problem for wooden stables too.
		
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But many yards operate a straw only or shavings only policy. In fact thinking about it, the yards I have known with this policy have been straw bedded ones. Not all yards give the option of change though. As with all things DIY - you either suck it up and accept the rules or move on. The only way DIY is truly for the benefit of the DIYer is if you have the horses at home. Anything else and there will be some rules you have to adhere to - which is why mine are at home


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## Feival (4 September 2014)

I have, but I payed no attention to it. The yard was new and the owner didn't really have a clue. The rule was soon dropped when he put me in charge as yard manager.


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## abb123 (4 September 2014)

Fides said:



			But many yards operate a straw only or shavings only policy. In fact thinking about it, the yards I have known with this policy have been straw bedded ones. Not all yards give the option of change though. As with all things DIY - you either suck it up and accept the rules or move on. The only way DIY is truly for the benefit of the DIYer is if you have the horses at home. Anything else and there will be some rules you have to adhere to - which is why mine are at home 

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Of course there are always rules - ones that should be reasonable and practical. 

As I said, I would never move to a yard that had this rule and would move if it ever came in. As would most of the other clients I would guess. I can only think of one or two that would be able to accommodate a rule like this. Which is probably why it isn't a common rule as most YOs know that it isn't reasonable or practical and would have empty yards if they did bring it in.


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## AAR (4 September 2014)

I think its a good rule tbh! If you don't have time to do it in the mornings then you need to get up earlier! I get up at 5 most winter mornings to exercise and muck out 2 by 8.15 when I have to leave for work.

I wouldn't want to leave my stables unmucked out all day because I wouldn't want my y/o to think I was lazy and couldn't be bothered to do it. Plus it makes the stables smell, look untidy etc. I like my horse to come in to a fresh bed, full bucket of water and a haynet after being out. 

I could afford to have part-livery but I wouldn't be able to afford nice things, holidays etc so I get up and get cracking on DIY.


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## Starzaan (4 September 2014)

Prepared to get shot down here, but hear me out. 

When I had my own livery yard I had mainly full liveries, with a separate barn for four DIYs. It was in their contract that mucking out had to be done by 9am at the LATEST. Once I explained the reasons why they were all happy with this and were fab about getting it done. 

My grooms and I had all the full liveries mucked out and finished by 7am. My rule was that no livery ever saw the yard in a mess and boxes un mucked out. I took a great deal of pride in the fact that you could walk onto my yard at any time and know it would be immaculate. If I was showing a prospective livery around, dirty boxes were a huge no no for me. Especially after 9am. 

I think on a solely DIY yard it's silly though.


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## Pearlsasinger (4 September 2014)

AAR said:



			I think its a good rule tbh! If you don't have time to do it in the mornings then you need to get up earlier! I get up at 5 most winter mornings to exercise and muck out 2 by 8.15 when I have to leave for work.

I wouldn't want to leave my stables unmucked out all day because I wouldn't want my y/o to think I was lazy and couldn't be bothered to do it. Plus it makes the stables smell, look untidy etc. I like my horse to come in to a fresh bed, full bucket of water and a haynet after being out. 

I could afford to have part-livery but I wouldn't be able to afford nice things, holidays etc so I get up and get cracking on DIY.
		
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Some people have to leave for work long before 8.15!

It's threads like this which make me so glad that ours are at home.  
We used to keep 4 horses at livery and always mucked out after work, before bringing the horses in for the night, 4 of us took it in turns to put out on winter mornings, so that no-one had to get up in the middle of the night to get to work, on time and smartly dressed.  I worked in a school about 20 miles away from the yard, which was in the opposite direction from home to my work.  I had to be there by 8.30 at the absolute latest, in order to get ready fro my day. The journey took a minimum of 45 mins, often longer than that in bad traffic.

I have read of several practices, on this thread, that concern me far more, from a safety pov, than leaving a horse's bed to be mucked out after work.  If I were running a yard (Which I certainly wouldn't- the idea gives me nightmares!) I should address actual safety issues rather than worrying about someone else's routine.

Surely the whole idea of having horses on DIY is to be able to have a routine which suits the owner and their horse, without petty rules getting in the way.  If one livery is causing a problem in any way, the YO should address that issue with the individual concerned, rather than making a blanket rule which causes problems for perfectly reasonable people .


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## dogatemysalad (4 September 2014)

Usually most people muck out in the morning  anyway, which is why the shift workers are always done by 7am or thereabouts . The only stable in our barn that gets left is the one whose owner runs in at 9am to chuck her horse out before going to work and that stable tends to smell because her standards aren't great.   It's not unreasonable to get up 15 minutes earlier to muck out and it makes the yard better for everyone lead. If the vet is examining  my horse in the stable and we were sandwiched in between two smelly stables, I'd be mortified.


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## BroadfordQueen (4 September 2014)

Interesting views on both sides. Fwiw, the stables are in an american barn type set up, and not wooden. I would never leave them in a dirty stable, I would turn out, go to work, come back at around 2pm to muck out, then bring in, ride etc. No horses with respiratory problems as far as I'm aware. No full liveries, its purely DIY. 
Those saying get up earlier- what about yard opening times or do you not have them?


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## EmmaB (4 September 2014)

Stupid rule! If your horse is mucked out well every day then it's shouldn't be unbearably smelly from one night anyway. Don't see why it matters really. 

If it was in te contract from the stay then fair enough if you agree to it but to start a new rule is a bit strange. Maybe they are trying to make money from the people who don't have time in the mornings.


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## dogatemysalad (4 September 2014)

Surely if a yard has restrictive opening hours and you start work so early that you  haven't got an extra 15 minutes wouldn't you choose another yard ? When viewing a new yard, Seeing dirty stables gives a bad impression.


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## Tnavas (4 September 2014)

Never heard of such a rule. I worked at one yard where we skipped out before breakfast and mucked out in the afternoon. I felt the beds tended to get messy as activity around the yard had horses moving around a lot.

One thing you could consider is a deep litter bed for winter, then you could just skip out and all done for the day.


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## JulesRules (4 September 2014)

dogatemysalad said:



			When viewing a new yard, Seeing dirty stables gives a bad impression.
		
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No it doesn't, it shows a lived in working atmosphere. Other livery's stables and how they chose to manage them is of no interest to me. 

Things that have put me off a yard are poor fencing or a lack of maintenance, paddocks that have clearly not been poo picked for a month or more to the point ridiculous rules!

My last yard was an extremely well run yard and on arrival people would always comment on what a lovely yard it was. It was swept throughout daily and we were all trained to sweep up after ourselves after mucking out, picking out hooves etc. It was very well maintained and generally very tidy and well kept. However, mucking out of my American barn type stable was often left until the afternoon and this was not an issue. The door was closed so what does it matter. It was mucked out daily and regularly disinfected and did not smell particularly. 

My current yard is much more laid back and "rustic" but again, how other liveries choose to manage their stables is really of no interest to me.


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## EmmasMummy (4 September 2014)

Hmm, I have to say.....having that kind of rule seem to just cement the image that to do horses, you need to have money, and enough money that you do not have to work. or that you keep them at home, or you have no kids or live very close to your stables...

I can see why if you want everything done by X then make that rule, and fine if all your liveries can manage it. But if many cant what a trivial thing to lose a livery over. 
When I had my horse before, out of the 8 boxes in the barn...5 would be left till evening to be mucked out.  It didnt smell. But then none were box walkers or very mucky!


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## 3OldPonies (4 September 2014)

I've heard of a similar rule, on a DIY and Assisted DIY yard - all boxes had to be mucked out and the yard outside swept before 10.00 am/or before you rode - whichever was earlier.  I think they did it to stop certain DIYers leaving it until the afternoon or even until (in one case) until they turned up in the evening to feed.

Makes sense to me, if you do it first thing, which I on my own little pad did when my boys used to come in, you can stack the bedding at one side and let the floor dry out a bit.  Stick it back down after riding or about an hour before bringing in to give the dust time to settle.


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## Moomin1 (4 September 2014)

This is why I much prefer being on the tiny yard I am on - the YO isn't horsey, and doesn't care when you go and muck out etc. The only thing he asks is that if you go after around 10pm at night in the winter you let him know so he doesn't panic when he sees someone around the yard late at night.


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## PolarSkye (4 September 2014)

I can understand the rule or part or full livery yards, but not for DIY.  It is perfectly possible to leave the yard itself clean and tidy while leaving individual stables unmucked . . . and anyone showing a potential livery round has only to say "oh, so-and-so works/has early shifts so mucks out in the afternoon" to explain away messy/dirty stables.  It will be blindingly obvious to any potential livery whether or not that stable is regularly mucked out or whether the owner is cripplingly lazy and NEVER mucks out.

Careful vetting and screening of potential liveries should be all that's sufficient to make sure that stables/horses are not neglected . . . well, that and an efficient and no-nonsense yard owner/manager.

There are only four horses/ponies stabled at current yard - YO's two ponies, Kal and fellow livery's mare.  Fellow livery works full time so I chuck her mare out for her in the morning and her stable remains un-mucked until the afternoon.  It doesn't smell, it isn't offensive and everything else about the yard is otherwise neat, clean and tidy.  No harm, no foul.

P


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## Flame_ (4 September 2014)

No that's a stupid rule which achieves nothing other than the YO being a PITA and enjoying the power. I can't be doing with that sort of rubbish and wouldn't be on a yard with pointless rules whether I mucked my horse out in the morning or not.


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## Jango (4 September 2014)

For the people saying get up earlier I could but I'd rather not stink for work!!! In the winter when my horse is in overnight I pay for his feed/haynet to be put in around 6.30am then I arrive at 7.30 to chuck him out and leave the yard for work 7.45 (yard is on the way) to start work clean and presentable 8.30! Then in the evening I bring him in, tie up outside his stable with a haynet and do his jobs, then ride. Horse isn't in a dirty stable, I don't stink for work/i'm not exhausted and under performing and everyone's happy.


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## abb123 (4 September 2014)

Precisely PolarSkye.

It might be what some would prefer but it just isn't possible for a lot of people.

Having thought about and read some more comments I do think I should add a caveat that if the horses are not turned out or are on very restricted turnout then that is different. I wouldn't want horses that are in to be only be mucked out once in the evening and therefore end up standing all day in poo and wee from the night before.


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## Dave's Mam (4 September 2014)

If you muck every evening or every morning, there's still the same amount of time between clear outs!


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## PolarSkye (4 September 2014)

abb123 said:



			Having thought about and read some more comments I do think I should add a caveat that if the horses are not turned out or are on very restricted turnout then that is different. I wouldn't want horses that are in to be only be mucked out once in the evening and therefore end up standing all day in poo and wee from the night before.
		
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This is an excellent point - but, as I said above, one that can (and should) be easily addressed by an effective yard owner/manager.  

P


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## Janovich (4 September 2014)

Like I've said earlier... I still think it's a sneaky way of getting more money out of folks who simply hadn't got a hope in hell of mucking out before a certain time in a morning!

It's all very well some of you saying 'get up earlier'..blah blah,...but what if your job is shiftwork as others have said and you're working on the hours this YO says you need to be mucked out by??  You're then bound by this (in my opinion petty) rule to have to put your hand in your pocket and pay for a service that is impossible for you to do yourself if this rule is applied.  I'd vote with my feet/hooves if this rule ever came into force on my yard (which it never will!).

And as for the 'I don't like to see messy un-mucked out stables'... Ha ha... words fail me.  I for certainly would NOT be put off by stables that hadn't been mucked out if I was looking round a place...definitely not.  

In fact I'd be highly suspicious if a yard didn't look 'lived in' and by that I mean that you expect to see a working livery yard with poo in a stable and a bit of hay on the floor here and there... surely???!!!

As has been said... If this particular YO has an issue with one/two liveries,..then do what any decent YO should do,..and deal with the matter in hand with them...and not come up with such a pathetic and quite honestly ridiculous rule..

Sorry,..just my opinion you understand, but I get so annoyed at yards that go all out and come up with theses kinds of 'rules' .. I left one because I could see exactly what they were doing by restricting turnout in winter (ample turnout at the yard by the way),.. as a devious way of you 'having' to then spend more money on bedding, which you could only buy through them,..coz your horse was in more... I voted with my feet there!


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## MerrySherryRider (4 September 2014)

We only have a rule that says all horses must be attended to by 9 am. It's a large 60 horse yard and I think my YO would have fit if people left stinky stables all day. Yard staff would bring in any diy horses that were unwell or stressed and she wouldn't put an ill horse in a dirty stable. Can't say it's ever been an issue though, as everyone comes in time to muck out or they make arrangements for assistance.


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## Lizzie66 (4 September 2014)

Wow so many stroppy people ! If you are on a yard then you have to abide by their rules. If the rule is brought in after then ask the YO  the reason behind it and then make your decision based on it.

There are a lot of reasons why this rule might be perfectly reasonable and the OP certainly hasn't given enough information to rule them out.
1. if bedding is included in the DIY price then mucking out early reduces how much is removed
2. they might prefer beds to be banked in the day to give the floor time to dry
3. the YO may have had a number of instances where they have been asked to bring horses in last minute and then also ended up having to muck out
4. the YO might be employ someone to do general duties such as muck heap and yard tidying in a morning
5. if someones horse does have copd and they are in a barn then mucking out in an evening may well cause this horse breathing difficulties
6. if the YO works say 7:30 to 17:30 they may want to be sure that all horses are being mucked out

there are probably lots more reasons, but at the end of the day even if it is just that the YO has seen an opportunity to make more money then that is their preogative, they could just put the price up !


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## teasle (4 September 2014)

All very well to say get up earlier. However shift workers may have to work late and keep going and active well into the evening. No good being too tired for your family either. And those of us on diy get up early anyway to feed and turn out. And some of us are getting old!


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## chocolategirl (4 September 2014)

Tinypony said:



			I hate it when YO's use a sledgehammer to crack a nut.  If they are unhappy with one livery they should tackle that direct.  Maybe ask if the rule could be amended to all stables to be mucked out before horse put back in?

Winkingwillow, I'm just wondering, why would you love to see all stables mucked out by midday?  What purpose does that serve apart from cosmetic?  On a DIY livery yard all that needs to happen is that people need to muck out before their horse comes back in.  I can understand it being different on a livery yard where staff do the mucking out.
		
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Sometimes horse needs to come in for farrier or vet and owner can't be there and I just hate putting a horse into a dirty stable. Yes I know it Doesn't do them any harm before anyone has a go, it's just something peculiar to me. The other reason for me is if I am showing any prospective clients around the yard, it would just be so much nicer if when they happen to pop their head over any stable doors, it all looked nice and tidy. That's all really.


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## JulesRules (4 September 2014)

WinkingWillow said:



			Sometimes horse needs to come in for farrier or vet and owner can't be there and I just hate putting a horse into a dirty stable. .
		
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If I had a planned visit from farrier or vet and horse was being brought in, I would normally make the effort to go down early and muck out.


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## Moomin1 (4 September 2014)

teasle said:



			All very well to say get up earlier. However shift workers may have to work late and keep going and active well into the evening. No good being too tired for your family either. And those of us on diy get up early anyway to feed and turn out. And some of us are getting old!
		
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That's exactly why I love being on the yard I am on.  I often end up going there in the middle of the night or late evening in the winter when my horse is stabled at night because I do on call shifts, and very often am called out til early hours. So I have to work around that and go and muck out/bring in when I finish work...which could be anytime at all... .  My YO doesn't care so long as I let him know before 10pm that I am likely to be there very late or in the night.


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## Fides (4 September 2014)

3OldPonies said:



			Makes sense to me, if you do it first thing, which I on my own little pad did when my boys used to come in, you can stack the bedding at one side and let the floor dry out a bit.  Stick it back down after riding or about an hour before bringing in to give the dust time to settle.
		
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I wonder this myself. I think the only answer can be that they don't... I like to leave my floor clear to dry when the stable is empty - keeps the ammonia smell down.

I have looked after horses for people when you go to muck out and the bed had been left down all day and you lift it and the wet is all pink and stinky. It makes my eyes sting and I hate putting a horse in a stable that smells like that straight after mucking out. When I lift my wet, it is just that - wet. Not old smelly wet. My stables smell like wood chip 

It's making me gag thinking about that horrible fishy smell


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## Tinypony (4 September 2014)

This reminds me why I'm happy to no longer be on a livery yard.  One reason for a start - get away from trivial rules.


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## thatsmygirl (4 September 2014)

Never heard of this rule but to all those saying we work so not possible, iv got 4 horses soon to be 5 and I muck out/water buckets/haynets and brush up all before work for 8am and that inclu taking my son to the childminder. I get up the yard at 5am. It can be done if people are willing to get up earlier but its a silly rule and I wouldn't entertain it. 

My yard has no rules and we all get on fab with no issues


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## Dave's Mam (4 September 2014)

Many of us work shifts, so it is not a case of "Getting up earlier."


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## teasle (4 September 2014)

thatsmygirl said:



			Never heard of this rule but to all those saying we work so not possible, iv got 4 horses soon to be 5 and I muck out/water buckets/haynets and brush up all before work for 8am and that inclu taking my son to the childminder. I get up the yard at 5am. It can be done if people are willing to get up earlier but its a silly rule and I wouldn't entertain it. 

My yard has no rules and we all get on fab with no issues
		
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And you are how old.....???????? Will you be able to do this as you approach and pass 60?


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## Zero00000 (4 September 2014)

I would like this expectation/rule over cold winter months, so if the weather suddenly changes or for whatever reason the horses owner cannot get down, you can grab in the horse and put into a clean stable without having to worry about mucking/skipping how ever many horses there are out.


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## Janovich (4 September 2014)

thatsmygirl said:



			Never heard of this rule but to all those saying we work so not possible, iv got 4 horses soon to be 5 and I muck out/water buckets/haynets and brush up all before work for 8am and that inclu taking my son to the childminder. I get up the yard at 5am. It can be done if people are willing to get up earlier but its a silly rule and I wouldn't entertain it. 

So how would you cope if you were a firefighter for example and worked their shifts???!!!
		
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## Ebenezer_Scrooge (4 September 2014)

As someone who often does late shift finishing at 21.45 (provided no late stay due to emergency) then being back into work at 07.15  next day on early shift mucking out before work is impossible. I go after late shift to bring him in everything ready in stable, go home, sort cats etc, sleep then up by 5.45 to get ready & put horse out (5 miles from home in opposite direction from work)then make it to work just in time. Not everyone does a 9-5, & some jobs are 24/7 7 days a week service & we shouldn't be discriminated against. I do my hardest to make sure my horse is well looked after & wants for nothing. Luckily no restrictions on visiting either & my YO is very understanding re my hours.


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## Dave's Mam (4 September 2014)

Janovich said:





thatsmygirl said:



			Never heard of this rule but to all those saying we work so not possible, iv got 4 horses soon to be 5 and I muck out/water buckets/haynets and brush up all before work for 8am and that inclu taking my son to the childminder. I get up the yard at 5am. It can be done if people are willing to get up earlier but its a silly rule and I wouldn't entertain it. 

So how would you cope if you were a firefighter for example and worked their shifts???!!!
		
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My point exactly.
		
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## MerrySherryRider (4 September 2014)

My friend was a firefighter and managed fine. Another was an ambulance driver with 6 horses. Again, no problem. I managed with young children and nursing shifts . Basically, if you want to, you do. If time is so limited perhaps diy is not the right choice.


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## Janovich (4 September 2014)

MerrySherryRider said:



			My friend was a firefighter and managed fine. Another was an ambulance driver with 6 horses. Again, no problem. I managed with young children and nursing shifts . Basically, if you want to, you do. If time is so limited perhaps diy is not the right choice.
		
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I agree with you MSR to a point,.. but to be informed that you have to be mucked out by a certain time of day is NOT going to fit in with alot of folk working shifts, so yes, as you've said, DIY is not the way to go in this case, and hence, why shift workers being told they have to perform certain stable duties/tasks by a certain hour is never going to fit with their way of life!  They will almost certainly end up having to cough up and pay for certains duties to be done on a number of days of the week when their own working hours do not fit in with rules of this kind.


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## Kezzabell2 (4 September 2014)

what a joke! as long as its cleared once a day, if that's their rule, it shouldn't matter when its done!  I do mine first thing during the week but at the weekend it can be any time!  craziness!


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## armchair_rider (4 September 2014)

Camilla's Aunty Em said:



			If you muck every evening or every morning, there's still the same amount of time between clear outs!
		
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Yes but the environment isn't consistent - it's warmer during the day and that will hasten breakdown/decay of waste. It might not make much difference but it does make some difference. Plus if you want to leave the floor clear to dry/air it is more effective to do that in the warmer part of the day.

Personally I don't think this rule is unreasonable provided it is applied with common sense. Since the OP is a long-standing livery, who can be relied upon to muck out properly once they have time to do it, the YO should be willing to make an exception - especially as this is a new rule. I suspect this is either a case of using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut or the YO is scared to confront whoever is leaving their stable messy all the time.


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## Janovich (4 September 2014)

Kezzabell2 said:



			what a joke! as long as its cleared once a day, if that's their rule, it shouldn't matter when its done!  I do mine first thing during the week but at the weekend it can be any time!  craziness!
		
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Yup.... Absolute poppycock as far as I'm concerned! Screams of 'control freak' of a YO to me,


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## saddlesore (4 September 2014)

Tinypony said:



			This reminds me why I'm happy to no longer be on a livery yard.  One reason for a start - get away from trivial rules.
		
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This! I am on a livery yard but couldn't be bothered with all that nonsense, I'd sell the horse first. Horse gets mucked out after work. If it's wet I'll even bring him in to his dirty stable and muck out round him whilst he eats his hay net: he's never complained ;-) 

For those that say a spotless yard before X o'clock gives a good impression to prospective clients I honestly disagree. I understand totally from a full livery POV but for those on DIY I bet it sets alarm bells off with people wondering how many rules they'll need to work their lives around to accommodate their hobby!


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## MerrySherryRider (4 September 2014)

Janovich said:



			I agree with you MSR to a point,.. but to be informed that you have to be mucked out by a certain time of day is NOT going to fit in with alot of folk working shifts, so yes, as you've said, DIY is not the way to go in this case, and hence, why shift workers being told they have to perform certain stable duties/tasks by a certain hour is never going to fit with their way of life!  They will almost certainly end up having to cough up and pay for certains duties to be done on a number of days of the week when their own working hours do not fit in with rules of this kind.
		
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I think we all hate it when a YO changes the rules, but we all either comply or move on. Apart from the smell in an American barn it's not the worst thing to leave a stable all day, but it does make sense to leave a stable clean in case of an emergency or neighbouring horses on box rest.


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## XxCoriexX (4 September 2014)

Completely unreasonable rule for some people! I live in the centre of town and my yard is 14 miles away! there is no way i would have time to go to the yard to get my horse mucked out then get home for a shower - i refuse to go into work smelly it is just unprofessional - and then get back to work (10 miles from house 4 from yard) in time for work when you consider the rush hour traffic that i would then have to contend with! i would have to be at the yard before 5 am to get everything done and make it through the traffic! i would then have to go back at night and ride, then with traffic again i wouldnt get home until 9pm! 
my horse is turned out in the morning and then after work i muck out her box and take her in. i also am carer for my grandparents as they both have dementia and i have to go there before and after work to make sure they are well. horses and work are not the only things that some people are dealing with, factor in everything else and it sometimes is not possibel to get up earlier, its not laziness on my part but the fact that i actually need sleep and i dont think that my 90 year old grandparents would appreciate their wake up call at 4 am!


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## teasle (4 September 2014)

To those that say if you can t muck out before work you should not be on diy, remember that some people have their horses for 20 plus years, and their lives and responsibilities change in that time, not necessarily bringing them extra money.Do you want to see these horses on the market that is crowded already or pts?


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## Copperpot (4 September 2014)

This. I start work at 2.25am on my earliest start. And on late's finish at 3am in the morning. I have to fit sleep in somewhere lol. This is why when my horses lived in I always had to be in livery, to ensure they were turned out and mucked out. Nights are infact the best shift for looking after them. As I can get all the jobs done in the morning and then go back up before work too. 

Now they live out life is a lot easier. OH can go chuck their feeds to them and check them over etc.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (4 September 2014)

saddlesore said:



			For those that say a spotless yard before X o'clock gives a good impression to prospective clients I honestly disagree. I understand totally from a full livery POV but for those on DIY I bet it sets alarm bells off with people wondering how many rules they'll need to work their lives around to accommodate their hobby!
		
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I agree. I can't stand spotless yards where someone is on your case if you don't sweep up every speck of dirt ten seconds after you've caused it. I sweep up once, before taking the barrow to the muck heap. Any mess caused after that (eg shedding coat, chippings blowing off the barrow) get swept up tomorrow. Life is too short FGS. 

As for "not having time" to muck out mornings meaning people "shouldn't be on DIY" - its not lack of time, its a lifestyle choice. I don't want to get up at 4am so I can be at the yard, stables all finished and horses out, then home to shower and breakfast, before heading off for work. It's all done in a clock-watching stressed rush and means going to bed at 8pm (I need 8hrs sleep), instead of being a chance to take my time, potter about and relax after work. I guess it may work fine if you are single, childless and friendless and happy to stay that way :tongue3: . But if not, in a world where the majority of people still work days, do family stuff and go out eves, sleeping at night, I wouldn't be happy with a YO imposing a particular lifestyle on me with their daft rules.


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## BroadfordQueen (4 September 2014)

Interesting to hear peoples POV. Like I said I can see both sides (kind of!), and will sort something out to make it work for us- not a problem for now as horse is out overnight anyway


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## Sugar_and_Spice (4 September 2014)

Fides said:



			I have looked after horses for people when you go to muck out and the bed had been left down all day and you lift it and the wet is all pink and stinky. It makes my eyes sting and I hate putting a horse in a stable that smells like that straight after mucking out. When I lift my wet, it is just that - wet. Not old smelly wet. My stables smell like wood chip 

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I have a very wet horse. When I muck out eves the bed is never pink and stinky, that doesn't happen unless the wet has been left from a few days to a week. I suspect the people asking you favours are being a bit cheeky and only skipping out in the days prior.


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## JulesRules (4 September 2014)

Another consideration..

If I muck out before work I am likely to be rushing to get it done and get to work and I probably miss bits. 

When I muck out after work I relax and take my time and do a thorough job which ultimately leads to a cleaner stable overall.


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## MotherOfChickens (4 September 2014)

I've not read all the replies (don't you just hate that! ;p) but I cannot stand not mucking out before I go to work-it just doesn't happen and my horses are at home. I have a 45 min commute although I also work flexi. When I was on DIY I got there early and when I couldn't I paid for livery. I always hated the thought of horses going back into a dirty stable so I wouldn't personally do it. I also disliked those sorts of yards where people are muckily mucking out until 9pm at night-but then, I never chose those yards, I get that some people have to/want to.


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## sarahann1 (4 September 2014)

When either of mine are in, I'll muck out in the morning *if* said horse is on 24/7 box rest, then again in the evening. If they are in through the night, out in the morning, I'll tend to leave mucking out till the evening or very quickly skip out and finish off properly in the evening. 

There are days where that wouldn't be possible, like tomorrow for example, I have to be on a bus by 7:15am, my yard opens at 7am, and is 10mins in the wrong direction for getting the bus. I'd need to go up much earlier and that would depend on the YO saying it was ok for me to be there at 5:45am to get enough time to muck out, get home, get showered and ready for work.

I would struggle with that rule OP, I wouldn't be very happy about it either.


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## 3OldPonies (4 September 2014)

At the risk of causing an almighty ruck - and I can see that for shiftworkers or people who don't have yards close or even at home mucking out a.m. can be awkward, how do you justify to yourselves allowing the ammonia to build up during the day/week if you muck out in the evening?  Would it not be better if you struggle to get it done, to go assisted DIY or have a sharer so that stuff doesn't build up and have a chance to affect your horse's breathing?  What would you do if your horse was on box-rest, or couldn't be turned out for any reason leave it to stagnate in a dirty bed all day?

btw - don't shout at me, I'm just interested that's all.

And I'm not knocking you, just it does start to raise some welfare questions, presumably YO's wouldn't need to put rules in place if they didn't feel the need.

One other thing, someone mentioned yard sweeping.  It's not just done to look pretty!  If a yard is messy then it is very easy to miss stuff that could get stuck in a horse's foot, or other problems such as slipping if there is mud and loose hair all over the place.


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## chocolategirl (4 September 2014)

Tinypony said:



			This reminds me why I'm happy to no longer be on a livery yard.  One reason for a start - get away from trivial rules.
		
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Unfortunately without rulers chaos ensues! I have been on yards over the years that have been total crap fests riddled with vermin, muck heap out of control, the list goes on. Most of the yards in operation, are also people's homes, and therefore, they have a right to expect people to keep the place tidy surely? And before you shoot me down in flames and say that if they don't like the mess, they shouldn't run a yard from their home, how many yards do you think there would be if that where the case?! As a yard owner, sometimes I would just love it if people would stop and ask themselves what would they do, say or think if they were in yard owners shoes?


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## Wiz201 (4 September 2014)

Surely if the stables are designed correctly to drain pee away, the smell shouldn't be a problem? Our RDA ponies are kept in during our carriage sessions apart from when they're taken out to be used for 5 hours on an afternoon and one or two may pee inevitably as they wait to be turned out in the yard again at night (locked in by two gates). I find after 10 mins or so the wee drains away so quickly there is no smell. They are just kept on rubber mats though.
I'm not a tidy person by nature anyway but a slightly untidy yard doesn't bother me. Seeing the odd poop or so actually tells me this a nice relaxed yard that has no strict rules. I agree sweeping could be done at least twice a day or if there is a big mess like clipping but if it doesn't cause a hazard then it could be left until a more convenient time.


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## thatsmygirl (4 September 2014)

MerrySherryRider said:



			My friend was a firefighter and managed fine. Another was an ambulance driver with 6 horses. Again, no problem. I managed with young children and nursing shifts . Basically, if you want to, you do. If time is so limited perhaps diy is not the right choice.
		
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I totally agree, I was a retained firefighter for 5 yrs before I had my son on top a full time job and still managed, sometimes little sleep but it can be done. I looked into full time firefighting but wasn't fit enough after having my son so left for the job I'm in now. Also worked shifts when I was younger and still coped fine and that included 11.30 finishes and opening the place at 6am, its getting out of bed. Can't do it then I agree that DIY isn't right for you


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## saddlesore (4 September 2014)

Have to say my horses stable never smells bad! The only time I've seen the pink bedding someone mentioned is when digging out a deep litter bed. If my horse is in box rest then I pay to have him mucked out in the mornings but I can't afford it the rest of the time. 

If your yard has very restricted turnout and the horses get brought in again at twelve then I can maybe see the point, but I wouldn't be on a yard like that, and certainly not on DIY. I love my horse and I have kept horses for 22 years but they are my hobby and 'down time'. They're not my whole life and they need to fit in round about that I'm afraid.


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## Tobiano (4 September 2014)

blimey I am so admiring of all you early birds - well done you!  I am afraid I would pay rather than have to be at the yard by 6!

Might be slightly off topic, but I am not sure why the rule is about mucking out, rather than tending to the horse in other ways?  The thing I really can't stand is some poor horse being stood in its stable, having eaten all its hay, until 11 am when the owner bothers to come and turn it out.  THAT is what there should be rules for, IMO!


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## saddlesore (4 September 2014)

Tobiano- that I can totally agree with!


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## Sugar_and_Spice (4 September 2014)

3OldPonies said:



			At the risk of causing an almighty ruck - and I can see that for shiftworkers or people who don't have yards close or even at home mucking out a.m. can be awkward, how do you justify to yourselves allowing the ammonia to build up during the day/week if you muck out in the evening?  Would it not be better if you struggle to get it done, to go assisted DIY or have a sharer so that stuff doesn't build up and have a chance to affect your horse's breathing?  What would you do if your horse was on box-rest, or couldn't be turned out for any reason leave it to stagnate in a dirty bed all day?

btw - don't shout at me, I'm just interested that's all.

And I'm not knocking you, just it does start to raise some welfare questions, presumably YO's wouldn't need to put rules in place if they didn't feel the need.

One other thing, someone mentioned yard sweeping.  It's not just done to look pretty!  If a yard is messy then it is very easy to miss stuff that could get stuck in a horse's foot, or other problems such as slipping if there is mud and loose hair all over the place.
		
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What ammonia smell? A proper bed (not a skimpy one) the wet, and any smell, will be at the bottom away from the horse. Fresh bedding from the banks/rest of bed tends to fall/get kicked over most of the poos so horse isn't actually standing in them even if on box rest and only getting mucked out once in 24hrs. I never muck out with horse in the stable, even a box rest horse of mine would be tied up outside so wouldn't smell the ammonia when mucking out. Bed relaid immediately and again, deep bed equals no smell. I sometimes choose to deep litter a horse over winter for various reasons and that bed, which is only ever skipped out for 6mths, doesn't smell either (until mucking out time in spring of course). 

I don't want a sharer to help with chores. I like chores. Plus, IMO they either muck out badly leaving a dirty bed (and I'm not fussy about every nugget of poo being collected either!) or they're inefficient and waste clean bedding therefore costing me rather than saving me money. I dont want assisted DIY or part livery either. I can't afford to pay for it and find the mucking out of most yard staff as bad as that of sharers. Plus, I enjoy horsecare its part of why I have one rather than being a sharer myself. With the amount I ride it would be more cost effective for me to be a sharer, but I prefer owning for both the freedom of choice and control of horses care it gives me.

No YO even on posh yards has ever asked me to leave or told me my mucking out isn't to standard. No one has ever had concerns over my horses welfare. Most people say my horses are pampered, think my beds are crazy deep and some announce in surprise that I'm throwing away cleaner bedding than their horse is sleeping on. I'm not stingy with bedding or mucking out just won't throw away clean stuff because there's a speck of poo in it, dont leave rogue wet patches to get mixed in making bed damp and smelly and don't care if my stable floor is dry or not. If I'm mucking out daily and it gets too whiffy then I'll put a drop of disinfectant in the water bucket remainder and throw that down before relaying the bed.


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## MiJodsR2BlinkinTite (4 September 2014)

I'm a YO - its DIY here and always has been. We only have the one livery so not the same situation as I guess OP is in on a bigger yard where there may well be a need for various dictates.

Livery mucks out when she pleases here. We live on site and my horses are in the same yard. The arrangement is loose-boxes rather than american barn.

Rules are made for a reason; and some of the "rules" I've had to have here in the past might have seemed pretty bizarre and/or unreasonable, BUT at the end of the day the YO is the YO and the buck has to stop with her.

Its a case of put up with it or leave at the end of the day........


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## BroadfordQueen (4 September 2014)

Those saying they wouldn't bring horse into a dirty stable- neither would I. I would always muck out before bringing in. And we have an emergency vet stable (as have a few grass liveries too, plus used for isolation of new horses and kept sterilised) so if my horse needed a vet in an emergency she would go in there anyway. 
in the grand scheme of things, would a few more hours really make a difference to the smell? It shouldn't if it was mucked out thoroughly and correctly the day before, surely?! Every last bit of wet gets taken out of my stable every day, so there would be no real build up of ammonia.


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## Spring Feather (4 September 2014)

Good thread OP!  I feel like I've been living in a cave as I honestly had no idea that so many people did not muck out first thing in the morning.  Wouldn't occur to me to NOT muck out and turn back the beds first thing in the morning tbh.


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## saddlesore (4 September 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			Good thread OP!  I feel like I've been living in a cave as I honestly had no idea that so many people did not muck out first thing in the morning.  Wouldn't occur to me to NOT muck out and turn back the beds first thing in the morning tbh.
		
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But that's your business is it not SF?


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## abb123 (4 September 2014)

I've not seen a reason yet in any of the posts that has convinced me that imposing a rule like this is a necessity on a normal DIY yard (by that I mean winter full day turn out and only DIYs on yard). 

Every reasoning so far has just been down to personal preference or a one off that could easily be worked around (for example, asking that stables must be mucked out if bringing in for farrier or before showing a prospective client around etc. and I would hope that any emergency vet would be focussing on the horse and not worrying about the state of the stable). That is fine if that is how you want to do things but it doesn't mean that everyone should be forced to do the same. A stable mucked out daily to a good standard with appropriate bedding will not smell.

I can completely see that a rule of mucking out at least once a day and keeping outside areas clean and tidy is necessary and respectful to the YO. No problem with that at all.

As I said, I wouldn't move to a yard with a rule like this and would move asap if it was ever bought in.


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## dogatemysalad (4 September 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			Good thread OP!  I feel like I've been living in a cave as I honestly had no idea that so many people did not muck out first thing in the morning.  Wouldn't occur to me to NOT muck out and turn back the beds first thing in the morning tbh.
		
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You're not the only one, but DIY livery yards in the UK vary greatly in standards.


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## Sukistokes2 (4 September 2014)

I would leave a yard that said I had to muck out before a certain time if I was DIY, however I do think there should be a time set for horses been seen too. We had a livery at our home, the horse would still be in, unfed, unseen too at midday regularly, they were neighbours, we used to go and get them up. I think they were hoping we'd do it for them.


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## MotherOfChickens (4 September 2014)

tobiano said:



			Might be slightly off topic, but I am not sure why the rule is about mucking out, rather than tending to the horse in other ways?  The thing I really can't stand is some poor horse being stood in its stable, having eaten all its hay, until 11 am when the owner bothers to come and turn it out.  THAT is what there should be rules for, IMO!
		
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well, agreed but again, I would not stay on a yard where that was allowed to happen i.e. if owner isn't there to TO, the yard turns out and bills the owner for it.


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## TheoryX1 (4 September 2014)

Oddly enough we have this yard rule.  Have been on same yard for eight years and its never bothered any of us.  All stables must be mucked out by 11.30 am, and all horses done for the evening by 7.30 pm.  Its an assisted DIY yard as well.  Its inserted into our livery contracts and nobody worries.  On the odd occasions when time has been impossibly tight, which are rare, I have just told YO its going to be sorted and its done later.  

The yard is an L shaped block around the YOs home and I personally cant think of anything worse than leaving a stable full of muck.  Our stables are brick built so no issues with horses next door with dust and mould spores etc.  None of us stress over it, its a yard rule  and thats it.  Its a very happy, friendly, harmonious yard where we all know what the YOs expectations are of us and ours of her.


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## dibbin (4 September 2014)

I used to share duties with another girl in the mornings, the YM insisted that her horse had to be mucked out in the morning as her stable was the first one people saw when they came on to the yard (very busy livery yard and riding school). Mine didn't have to be done in the morning because it was round the back where the public weren't likely to stray!

I generally do mine in the morning unless I'm really rushed, but that's just me.


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## Tinypony (4 September 2014)

WinkingWillow said:



			Unfortunately without rulers chaos ensues! I have been on yards over the years that have been total crap fests riddled with vermin, muck heap out of control, the list goes on. Most of the yards in operation, are also people's homes, and therefore, they have a right to expect people to keep the place tidy surely? And before you shoot me down in flames and say that if they don't like the mess, they shouldn't run a yard from their home, how many yards do you think there would be if that where the case?! As a yard owner, sometimes I would just love it if people would stop and ask themselves what would they do, say or think if they were in yard owners shoes?
		
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I said trivial rules, not all rules.  For example I think a rule saying everyone on DIY has to muck out by a certain time in the morning is trivial.  A rule saying they must muck out daily isn't.  Rules for rodent control aren't trivial either.


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## Spring Feather (4 September 2014)

saddlesore said:



			But that's your business is it not SF?
		
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It is.  And?


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## saddlesore (5 September 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			It is.  And?
		
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If it was my business I would do the mornings too! I think the point is that people who work elsewhere often need to do it in the evenings...


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## smellsofhorse (5 September 2014)

I know a yard that insists horse are mucked out by. 9.30, regardless of if they are turned out or staying in.
I have never stables my horses there though.

I always muck out in the morning and am always there early but this is a bit cheeky, I understand why people muck out later.

It must be a tidy yard or have full liveries and want all the mess and chaos over with early!


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## Tinypony (5 September 2014)

It's not always a simple matter of mucking out am or pm (just a thought as some seem to think mucking out evenings amounts to neglect!).  I used to stable one of mine in a situation where I was able to work with another livery to help each other out.  Most mornings she'd turn out, then go home to sort out kids and go to work.  I'd turn up late morning normally, sometimes early afternoon, and muck out both of our stables.  Then one or other of us would come back later and put the beds down and bring in.
I think most DIY'ers need flexibility.  Even if they have a routine there may be times when they need to do things differently.  So for that reason I think this rule is stupid and unreasonable on a DIY yard.


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## saddlesore (5 September 2014)

I agree Tinypony. I don't understand all the fuss either. My horse is in the field- he doesn't mind when it gets mucked out. :- p Some rules are needed, others are just there for the sake of it IMO. OP I hope you can find a suitable solution.


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## ribbons (5 September 2014)

WinkingWillow said:



			Unfortunately without rulers chaos ensues! I have been on yards over the years that have been total crap fests riddled with vermin, muck heap out of control, the list goes on. Most of the yards in operation, are also people's homes, and therefore, they have a right to expect people to keep the place tidy surely? And before you shoot me down in flames and say that if they don't like the mess, they shouldn't run a yard from their home, how many yards do you think there would be if that where the case?! As a yard owner, sometimes I would just love it if people would stop and ask themselves what would they do, say or think if they were in yard owners shoes?
		
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I'm very old school when it comes to stable management. My own routine is strictly tailored for what's best for the horses not whats easiest for me, and includes horses attended to and yard shipshape by 9am. Horses left un disturbed in the night other than emergencies. So no dirty stables left all day, certainly no mess around (a messy yard is a dangerous yard) and no one faffing around at various times of the night. 

I'm well aware not many think like this any more, and hobby owners don't see the point of rules that don't suit their lifestyle. Hence why my beautiful barn has plenty of empty stables that I don't need to use myself.


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## Tinypony (5 September 2014)

I guess anyone who doesn't actually earn money from their horses is a "hobby owner" and they are the main customer base for most livery yard owners.  First rule of marketing is to meet the needs of customers...  At a wild guess it's likely that as much as 90% of the posters here would be "hobby owners" in that, whatever activities they do, their horses are pets.  The only income they get might be a bit of prize money in competitions, but they aren't professionals in that they earn a living from their horses.  Certainly the majority of DIY liveries won't be professionals.

If someone has the luxury of being able to run a livery yard as a hobby and not need stables full then they can polish their concrete as much as they like.


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## XxCoriexX (5 September 2014)

I dont undserstand why people seem to assume that because you dont have time to muck out your stable in the morning your horse is neglected and your yard is a mess! What utter nonesense! my horse is turned out by 8am every morning when she is in at night, the stable is left for when i get back from work to ensure that i do a 100% job. becuase i take her in myself she comes on once her stable is ready and clean and the yard is never dirty! the yard is swept raked and even cleaned with a leaf blower every night! I CANNOT muck out in the morning i purely dont have the time and its not a luxury i have to be able to afford help all the time. 

People are talking about completely different situations! a horse left in a dirty stable and not seen to until 11am is a completeyl differnt situation to a horse who is only in for a few hours a night and is turned out at 8am! Just because the stable isnt mucked out doesnt mean that the horse hasnt been cared for!


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## JulesRules (5 September 2014)

XxCoriexX said:



			I dont undserstand why people seem to assume that because you dont have time to muck out your stable in the morning your horse is neglected and your yard is a mess! What utter nonesense! my horse is turned out by 8am every morning when she is in at night, the stable is left for when i get back from work to ensure that i do a 100% job. becuase i take her in myself she comes on once her stable is ready and clean and the yard is never dirty! the yard is swept raked and even cleaned with a leaf blower every night! I CANNOT muck out in the morning i purely dont have the time and its not a luxury i have to be able to afford help all the time. 

People are talking about completely different situations! a horse left in a dirty stable and not seen to until 11am is a completeyl differnt situation to a horse who is only in for a few hours a night and is turned out at 8am! Just because the stable isnt mucked out doesnt mean that the horse hasnt been cared for!
		
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Totally agree with this ^


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## Sugar_and_Spice (5 September 2014)

I don't even understand the "horses not seen to until 11am" that is often seen on various threads on here, with the owners accused of laziness and neglect. If the horse has been left with sufficient hay and water, with enough bedding that its not standing around in a mulch of poo and wee, then what difference does it make what time its turned out? I have been on many DIY yards where horses are fed breakfast and turned out at 10am as part of the package, and although the yards didn't have opening times owners were not allowed to turn out before 10am.  

It annoys me even more to see that any horse who runs out of hay is apparently neglected, according to this forum. It's not good for them to run out at 8pm and have to go through the night with nothing. But if they have enough so it runs out aprox 3hrs before turnout and they wait with nothing to eat, it helps with weight control. Not all horses need ad lib hay.


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## XxCoriexX (5 September 2014)

i think it really depends what time you take your horses in! most livery yards areound my area have a rule that horses have to be in at around 3pm. you can understand that leaving a horse from 3pm to 11am the next day is a long time for them not to be looked at or checked over or given a feed! if like my horse they are not taken in till much later then it is fine! people just need to realise that not everyone has the same schedule as them and that the horses are probably in very different routines.


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## saddlesore (5 September 2014)

^^ this. I've always been on yards that horses go out early and come in when you like. IMO a DIY yard needs to allow for this degree of flexibility. If you're running a full livery yard then you can do what suits you. My horse gets turned out by staff for nine and gets bedded down about 6.30. Many are brought in later than this. I'm lucky to be in such a large yard though that horses are used to lots of comings and goings and don't panic about changes in routine.


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## Fides (5 September 2014)

Sugar_and_Spice said:



			I don't even understand the "horses not seen to until 11am" that is often seen on various threads on here, with the owners accused of laziness and neglect. If the horse has been left with sufficient hay and water, with enough bedding that its not standing around in a mulch of poo and wee, then what difference does it make what time its turned out? I have been on many DIY yards where horses are fed breakfast and turned out at 10am as part of the package, and although the yards didn't have opening times owners were not allowed to turn out before 10am.  

It annoys me even more to see that any horse who runs out of hay is apparently neglected, according to this forum. It's not good for them to run out at 8pm and have to go through the night with nothing. But if they have enough so it runs out aprox 3hrs before turnout and they wait with nothing to eat, it helps with weight control. Not all horses need ad lib hay.
		
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Actually horse _do_ need To have access to forage at all times and it is totally unacceptable to leave a horse stood for any length of time without. If a horse cannot cope with haylage or hay then soaked hay may be needed, or even straw (I have used straw for my fatty). 

One thing I have discovered having horses at home is that what people think is enough, often isn't. I could put a net out at 7pm and do night checks at 11pm and the net be empty. If a net is empty in the morning then enough hasn't been provided. If a horse is not deprived of food then the don't gorge, they don't feel the need to.

So basically if someone were to leave the yard at say 7pm and not arrive the next day until 11am, even if the horse took 8 hours to empty that net, they could have still been stood without anything for 8 hours - that is not acceptable.

I will also like to add my point again that it isn't poo that is the issue, it is the wet. Forgetting horse welfare for a minute - For any yard with wooden stables, leaving the wet in is going to cause the walls to rot. Stables are expensive and YO are going to want them to last as long as possible and not have bottoms with rotten splinters peeling off. Even barn style stables have wooden dividing walls. The only ones without issues would be brick build but ammonia can even cause mortar to rot away.

Side partitions are about £300 each


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## saddlesore (5 September 2014)

I get your point Fides but I've honestly NEVER seen that happen. I can only imagine that on deep litter with a wet mare tbh.


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## Fides (5 September 2014)

saddlesore said:



			I get your point Fides but I've honestly NEVER seen that happen. I can only imagine that on deep litter with a wet mare tbh.
		
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I've just left a yard where the walls were a mess and I had to have massive banks for fear of one of them getting their foot stuck. I've seen it one other time too. I do believe it mare peeing backwards that means the edges of the beds are wet. I suppose it could have been them peeing in the banks and the banks not being dug out. Both times the previous occupant turned out in the morning and mucked out in the evening, though I don't believe they deep littered.

Not a risk I'm willing to take now I'm responsible for replacing them.


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## saddlesore (5 September 2014)

It'll be the banks not getting cleaned rather than the time they cleaned them. But if you're worried then it can't do any harm.


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## risky business (5 September 2014)

Never heard of a rule like that.

I'd be moving, not everyone can make it down in the morning full stop (I couldn't at one point I paid for turnout) let alone be mucked out by midday.


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## Sugar_and_Spice (5 September 2014)

I guess the ad lib forage issue is a matter of opinion then Fides. As far as I was aware the latest veterinary thinking is that horses were fine without food for a few hours at a time. How else would we ride them without it being a welfare issue? Horses turned out onto suitable, ie not excessive, grazing don't gorge after as the opportunity isn't there. 

I'm well aware of how some people overestimate the time it takes a large horse to eat a small haynet and I dislike seeing horses go all night without food just as you do. A horse fed ad lib forage won't gorge but it may still be fat. I can substitute straw of course and have done in the past, but when hay is included in the livery charge I'm not going to pay out twice when the same result can be got from having the horse run out of hay a few hours early, which I believe causes no harm to the horse.

As for rotten stables, I've never known that from anything other than age, possibly combined with lack of wood paint/creosote or similar. Horse wee, in a decent sized bed with banks, doesn't go anywhere near the wall. Unless you deep litter. And no yard I've been on has ever had a 'no deep litter beds' rule.  Of course with the current fashion of 4" of chippings or similar on top of rubber mats, most people wouldn't know what a decent bed is and tend to think my beds are crazy deep.


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## 3OldPonies (5 September 2014)

Well said Fides.

If there is rule on a yard for early mucking out then it should also ensure that animals aren't left standing in poopy wet bedding until mid to late morning.  

I don't see why it is that people think not doing their horse first thing is acceptable.  I understand that not everyone can be at their yard at 6 am, but (ruck coming up) to not do your horse until late in the morning is just not on.  I may be fairly traditional in my standards, but I was always taught that pets (inc. horses) come first, humans later.  So there are no lie ins at our house!  

These animals rely on us for everything, food, water, health and welfare and we shouldn't be letting them down by not seeing to their needs before ours.  In my view, anyone who thinks otherwise should question whether they should have pets/horses.


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## Moomin1 (5 September 2014)

saddlesore said:



			I get your point Fides but I've honestly NEVER seen that happen. I can only imagine that on deep litter with a wet mare tbh.
		
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Yes, it does happen.  I have seen it.  Same as wooden trailer floors - no difference at all. Ammonia and urine will rot wood over time.


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## Moomin1 (5 September 2014)

3OldPonies said:



			Well said Fides.

If there is rule on a yard for early mucking out then it should also ensure that animals aren't left standing in poopy wet bedding until mid to late morning.  

I don't see why it is that people think not doing their horse first thing is acceptable.  I understand that not everyone can be at their yard at 6 am, but (ruck coming up) to not do your horse until late in the morning is just not on.  I may be fairly traditional in my standards, but I was always taught that pets (inc. horses) come first, humans later.  So there are no lie ins at our house!  

These animals rely on us for everything, food, water, health and welfare and we shouldn't be letting them down by not seeing to their needs before ours.  In my view, anyone who thinks otherwise should question whether they should have pets/horses.
		
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It entirely depends on what time they are brought in.  My mare rarely gets brought in before 8pm every night in winter. Sometimes it's midnight or beyond.


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## 3OldPonies (5 September 2014)

OK, I know you haven't said you leave her in until 11 - but assuming from what you have written that you do - why do you?


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## XxCoriexX (5 September 2014)

It doesnt matter what time the horse if left it until i think the issue is HOW LONG the horse is left in! A horse coming in at 4pm and then getting turned out at 8:30pm is it its stable for 16.5 hours, so what if a horse is brought in at 9pm and put back out at 11 is only in its stable for 14 hours so why is that neglect just because the schedule isnt the same as yours? people need to stop judging on what time the horse comes in and out and actually look at the amount of time a horse spends in the stable! my horse may come in to be ridden at about 7 but i dont leave the yard until 9:30, 9:30 is when she gets her hay and water topped up and her bed skipped out for the final time!


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## Moomin1 (5 September 2014)

3OldPonies said:



			OK, I know you haven't said you leave her in until 11 - but assuming from what you have written that you do - why do you?
		
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If she's gone in at midnight or thereabouts, then yes, because it usually means that I have been on call all night with work.  That's 11 hours in the stable.  That's less time in than most yards who put in at 6 and turn out at 7.  

Either way, she has enough hay or haylege to last her.  She doesn't get stressed about it - she gets a good 12 hours or so out each day in the winter, and out 24/7 from Spring to Autumn.

As said above, it doesn't matter what time they are stood in their stables - it's how long they are in that matters, and what they have available to them in that time also.


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## shadowboy (5 September 2014)

I would not livery at a yard if they suddenly imposed a much out am rule because it has happened to me before. I muck out after work- because I need to be at work for half 8, I have an hour commute and a 45 minute dog walk to fit in as well as breakfast and all the morning's activities. I can't fit it all in and arrive smelling clean and being fresh faced and professional for work. I already get up at 6 to do the animals before adding a muck out. If I want any resemblance of a happy relationship with my husband I will not wake him up earlier just so a horse can be mucked out early when it's not even in its stable- it's in a field care free

There is no benefit - if the stables are dusty and smelly then they have poor ventilation or drainage- a few poos and a bit of wee sat on a decent bed should not be soooo smelly, unless the bed isn't deep enough or your rubber mats are trapping urine underneath.... 

A well managed bed shouldn't smell and good management doesn't mean a 5am get up!


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## 3OldPonies (5 September 2014)

OK, I totally get the point about work commitments meaning you need to muck out later, and presumable you people that do that have arrangements with your yards so that it is OK for you to do so.  It's not my ideal, but then I chose a job that lets me keep regular hours and not to far from yard or home.

But, as we all know there are people who leave their horses in when they don't need to and can't be ars*d to turn up and do them, we've all heard the gripes on this forum about the lazy people on yards - it is these people that lead YOs to instigate rules about mucking out, sweeping up, turn out and bringing in times.  These being the people that will rapidly get a yard a bad reputation because the place looks scruffy all the time.  As we all know a tidy yard when you view it is much more attractive and gives a more professional feel than a messy one with dirty stables, mess all over the place, tools left lying around, etc.

I guess the answer is that if you YO comes up with an early muck out rule and you've not had one before then you all stick to it, find out who the naughty person was who caused the rule to be brought in and do something about them, so that hopefully the YO will remove the rule again as it will not be necessary.


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## abb123 (5 September 2014)

I pay my YO to feed and turn out so I don't have to go down in the morning. The horses are in no way neglected just because I muck out in the evening before I bring in. It is ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

If a horse is so wet that it is causing damage to the stables beyond normal wear and tear then a change of bedding to something super absorbent (like Liverpool wood pellets) and ensuring a thorough clear out of wet everyday would sort it out.


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## Moomin1 (5 September 2014)

3OldPonies said:



			OK, I totally get the point about work commitments meaning you need to muck out later, and presumable you people that do that have arrangements with your yards so that it is OK for you to do so.  It's not my ideal, but then I chose a job that lets me keep regular hours and not to far from yard or home.

But, as we all know there are people who leave their horses in when they don't need to and can't be ars*d to turn up and do them, we've all heard the gripes on this forum about the lazy people on yards - it is these people that lead YOs to instigate rules about mucking out, sweeping up, turn out and bringing in times.  These being the people that will rapidly get a yard a bad reputation because the place looks scruffy all the time.  As we all know a tidy yard when you view it is much more attractive and gives a more professional feel than a messy one with dirty stables, mess all over the place, tools left lying around, etc.

I guess the answer is that if you YO comes up with an early muck out rule and you've not had one before then you all stick to it, find out who the naughty person was who caused the rule to be brought in and do something about them, so that hopefully the YO will remove the rule again as it will not be necessary.
		
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I agree with that - there are many people out there that just can't be bothered, and it really really boils my pee.  We've had people on our yard over the past few years who will leave there horses/ponies in 24/7 and only turn up once per day, chuck a bit of hay in, a gigantic bucket of feed, top the water up, and skip out, before leaving for a further 24 hrs.  Absolutely disgraceful.

As I said earlier, I am on a very small yard, so there aren't really any rules as to when you go up and what you do - which can work both ways. It's great for me personally, because my work patterns would make being on a strict yard with time limits pretty impossible. However, we've had a multitude of selfish, lazy people who can't be bothered on the yard who take advantage of that.


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## Moomin1 (5 September 2014)

abb123 said:



			I pay my YO to feed and turn out so I don't have to go down in the morning. The horses are in no way neglected just because I muck out in the evening before I bring in. It is ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

If a horse is so wet that it is causing damage to the stables beyond normal wear and tear then a change of bedding to something super absorbent (like Liverpool wood pellets) and ensuring a thorough clear out of wet everyday would sort it out.
		
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My stable doesn't get mucked out all day until right before I bring my mare in.  But she is on deep litter hemp, and in a breeze block and concrete stable, so not going to cause any damage to walls etc, and the fact she is on deep litter means that it's not going make any difference whether I clear the poo from the top surface or not until later on.  

With wooden stables, or poor floors, and bedding such as straw, then yes, I do think it should be mucked out in the morning and left to dry all day.


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## 3OldPonies (5 September 2014)

Sorry guys, can't leave this thread alone!

A proper muck out, where the bed is shifted from one side to the other and the walls and floor previously covered by bedding allowed to air is the only way to prevent wooden walls from rotting.  You may not see the damage happening immediately if you don't shift banking or bedding, but the rot will be starting, it only becomes visually apparent once the wood is beyond repair.  Deep litter beds and only taking the wet patches out are not the way to go if you want to preserve your buildings and not end up with costly repairs.  They also encourage vermin to set up home.


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## saddlesore (5 September 2014)

IMO some of you are discussing an entirely separate issue. Those of us who muck out later aren't leaving horses in till then! They are still turned out ( in my case by yard staff as part of my livery) in the morning. When the horse is in the field he doesn't care if his stable has been mucked out yet, so long as it's done! People leaving horses IN and standing in a dirty stable is a whole other issue and YO should definitely speak to them about it. But to me, unless on box rest, no horse should be stuck in anyway.


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## Spring Feather (5 September 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			Good thread OP!  I feel like I've been living in a cave as I honestly had no idea that so many people did not muck out first thing in the morning.  Wouldn't occur to me to NOT muck out and turn back the beds first thing in the morning tbh.
		
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saddlesore said:



			But that's your business is it not SF?
		
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Spring Feather said:



			It is.  And?
		
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saddlesore said:



			If it was my business I would do the mornings too! I think the point is that people who work elsewhere often need to do it in the evenings...
		
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That may be *your* point.  It's not mine.  If you re-read my post you will see that *my* point is that I am surprised about the amount of people who do not muck out in the morning and that it wouldn't occur to *me* not to muck out in the morning.  The reasons why others do or do not do this are of no interest to me; I couldn't care less what people do, however that does not negate the fact that it still surprised me.

I digress.  No horses live in on my farm.  All live out.  The only mucking out I ever do is at foaling time when mares are going to foal within 24 hours, so if they don't foal during the day then they are kept in overnight and I muck their foaling boxes out when I turn them back out again in the morning.


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## The Fuzzy Furry (5 September 2014)

Spring Feather said:



			That may be *your* point.  It's not mine.  If you re-read my post you will see that *my* point is that I am surprised about the amount of people who do not muck out in the morning and that it wouldn't occur to *me* not to muck out in the morning.  The reasons why others do or do not do this are of no interest to me; I couldn't care less what people do, however that does not negate the fact that it still surprised me.
		
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Are you me? I totally agree.

Mine have always without fail been mucked out in the morning.

Had 1 DIY yrs ago who left the mucking out till later, then ranted at me as I had brought her horse in (rule was nothing left on its own, hers was a shyte on its own!) and it had messed up the bed on a wet winters day..... at 8pm when she STILL hadn't arrived to do it, nor left water or hay ready - not done a thing for the horse at all

Am so glad I dont have 'extras' on the yard these days


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## Moomin1 (5 September 2014)

The Fuzzy Furry said:



			Are you me? I totally agree.

Mine have always without fail been mucked out in the morning.

Had 1 DIY yrs ago who left the mucking out till later, then ranted at me as I had brought her horse in (rule was nothing left on its own, hers was a shyte on its own!) and it had messed up the bed on a wet winters day..... at 8pm when she STILL hadn't arrived to do it, nor left water or hay ready - not done a thing for the horse at all

Am so glad I dont have 'extras' on the yard these days 

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Again, that's the beauty of my yard. Nobody brings my horse in but me, so that wouldn't happen.  

For me, mucking out in the morning is not an option a lot of days.  I do on call shifts, and can be called out anytime during the night, hence why my mare is brought in after midnight sometimes.  I cannot get up, turn out, muck out, before work if I am called out most of the night.  Therefore she gets turned out before work after I have slept, and mucked out later on before I bring her in. But as I say, her stable is block and concrete, so it's not likely to damage any of the building/structures.  If it was a wooden stable then that is an issue I fully agree.


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## Lucyad (5 September 2014)

Thank goodness I keep my horse at home - having him at the bottom of my garden means that I certainly could get up earlier and muck out before work - but why on earth would I, when I can do it at my leisure in evenings?  The horse is in the field at the time, so has no idea of what timetable I keep! 
 Never had any problems with stinky shavings building up during the day either - only a deep litter problem IME.  With a decent bed, all wet patches are contained as just that - patches.  If I could even see them from the surface I would consider the bed too thin - i.e. horse was standing in / lying on wet before being turned out.

Of course if the horse was on box rest it is a different situation - but if you skip out once and muck out once a day it makes no difference which end of the day is which, surely?


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## Annagain (5 September 2014)

For me the rule itself isn't so much the issue in this case (although it's a bit daft if all the horses are out in the day time) it's the fact it's suddenly changed with no consultation so the whole yard is having this change imposed on them, by the sound of it do prevent one person from causing an issue. If you've worked out a routine that works for you and been doing it for many years, it's a bit awkward to say the least to suddenly have to change it with no flexibility from the YO. I would have hoped the YO would have discussed it thoroughly and put measures in place to mitigate the inconvenience it could cause  - maybe giving a month's notice of the change to allow exisiting liveries to make arrangements, or offering flexibility on a case by case basis as long as horse welfare or yard safety isn't compromised. This could be the get out if the problem livery needs to be told no.


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## abb123 (5 September 2014)

Wooden stable floors are dangerous in my opinion and are just not suitable. I don't think there are many stables out there on DIY yards that have wooden floors so I think that is taking it to an extreme example that doesn't really apply.

Wooden dividing walls do get damaged as part of normal wear and tear of being stables. They are cheaper than using breeze blocks or similar but do not last as long, that is the down side of using them.  

Most normal horses are not so wet that this is excessive if suitable bedding is used and *all* the wet is cleared out daily. If excessive damage is occurring then the YO should take that up with the individual horse owner. For most horses/owners it isn't a problem.


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## GlamourDol (5 September 2014)

dogatemysalad said:



			I have been on some yards that have this policy. When the horses are stabled in an American barn, it's understandable. For horses with respiratory issues, being stabled next to a smelly stable isn't good and standing in while the next beside them is mucked out means lots of dust/spores etc  being tossed around. 
 It's not the end of the world but having beds done in the morning is better practice, although it does make life a bit more of a rush for people who need to leave very early in the mornings.
		
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When they are skipped out in the PM does this not cause the same problem?

Seems very odd to me OP.


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## TuscanBunnyGirl (7 November 2014)

I put this rule into place on my yard, all horses to be mucked out by 11am. It means that should any of the horses need to be brought in during the day for an emergency or whatever the case, I know that I can put them straight in their stables no worries. I hate seeing a straw bed quickly picked through with no time for the floor to dry. All my liveries are fine with it and wouldn't want to leave their stables dirty until the afternoon anyway.


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## Feival (7 November 2014)

I was at a yard with this rule, took over as YM and got rid of it &#55357;&#56833;


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## Honey08 (7 November 2014)

It's just me on my yard, and I muck out when it suits me, sometimes am, sometimes pm.  The doors are shut and the yard swept/muck heap tidied so it doesn't look messy either way.

I think it looks nice if a pro yard or full/part livery yard has everything done and dusted early, but it's not a fair rule to have on a DIY yard.  The only DIY yard I've ever been on had the rule that everything had to be mucked out daily or else the yard owner would do it and charge for it.  When we did DIY we just stipulated that the yard and muck heap had to be kept tidy so that if different people mucked out at different times there weren't constant trails of straw to the muck heap left..


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## pixie (7 November 2014)

Another yard owner here.  I expect horses to be turned out and stables done by 10am.  Feeds should be made up, haynets and water buckets full and beds either left up if the floor wants drying or neatly down.  They basically need to be ready in case the horse needs to be brought in by someone other than the owner.  This could be for  reasons such as bad weather, or if the owner is unable to make it up due to work/family issues.
We are more than happy for liveries to do jobs for eachother to save time on either end of the day, as long as the jobs are done.  If it isn't done then we do it and charge for the work.
I really cannot stand a stable left dirty, to me it is just laziness and disrespectful.


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## Enfys (7 November 2014)

Another reason I do not offer DIY. 

I have been on several DIY yards, we have never had restrictions like that, nor curfews, you mucked out when you could, or paid someone else to do it (I used to get my livery paid, and then some, doing beds and turnout for other people  ) 

If I DID run a DIY yard it would not occur to me to tell people WHEN they had to muck out by.

I have a few indoor Boarders, they are out by 6.30am, beds and evening nets are all done by 7.30.


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## Honey08 (7 November 2014)

It's not lazy or disrespectful, it's just that people have to fit jobs into their lives.  And I would never ever leave feed made up for hours, even with a cover on.  One DIY used to do that and I can't count the number of times I saw a mouse in her bucket.  I like my feed buckets left clean and upside down until I make the feed up just before they're fed and add the water.

We all have different things that bug us - these threads show that.  If a horse has jobs done properly and daily it's fine, the time shouldn't matter.


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## ester (7 November 2014)

A lot of the comments about smell etc are very presumptive that everyone lifts their beds every day. I only poo pick/tidy during the week. ATM horse comes in at 2pm so I do it in the morning though usually leave it in a skip bucket until the afternoon. If it is me bringing my horse in I like to muck out when I choose, I will close the door and sweep my bit of the yard. I would definitely want to know 'why' when there is a rule change.


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## Tinypony (7 November 2014)

I can't help thinking that some of the YO's are forgetting who is the customer.  Sure it's nice to have a yard all pretty by a certain time in the day.  If that's what you want get staff and do full livery.  DIY'ers are basically renting a stable and turnout and maybe a bit of storage space.  I think it's disrespectful to think that entitles the person who owns the property to dictate how they have to run their day and look after their horse.  (Welfare issues different of course).  I rent a house out to tenants, to me this is the equivalent of me telling them what time they have to put their washing out.


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## Wiz201 (7 November 2014)

Tinypony said:



			I can't help thinking that some of the YO's are forgetting who is the customer.  Sure it's nice to have a yard all pretty by a certain time in the day.  If that's what you want get staff and do full livery.  DIY'ers are basically renting a stable and turnout and maybe a bit of storage space.  I think it's disrespectful to think that entitles the person who owns the property to dictate how they have to run their day and look after their horse.  (Welfare issues different of course).  I rent a house out to tenants, to me this is the equivalent of me telling them what time they have to put their washing out.
		
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yep, its like telling someone when to do the washing up in their own house.


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## spotty_pony (7 November 2014)

Yes, been on several yards with this rule, some where the time limit was 10 am. There is good reason for it, as I've known several liveries in the past just not bother to turn up and muck out at all! I can't see any problem though if you have been up and turned out, and sorted your horse though as that's different. Have a word with your yard owner and see if they can make an exception to the rule. I'm sure they won't mind as you will still be caring for your horse - it's mainly to just stop people not bothering to turn up at all (as shockingly there are people out there like that!)


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## coffeeandabagel (7 November 2014)

Facinating read. Comes back to something that crops up time and time again. Some YOs really seem to think they are doing the livery a favour by letting them pay them to keep their horses there. I am not saying being a YO will make anyone rich, its just an attitude I have met quite often and heard of even more. 
"I have rules you dont like? - then go, I can replace you just like that". And so they can round here. 

For what its worth I used get up v early to muck out two on DIY, ride one, turn out both before work,  until the only place I could find for my new horse was a part livery yard. 

I hate a horse being in a stable with any poo or a wet bed, so skip out as soon as it drops, and get the horse to pee in a bucket if I am there at her  peeing times!


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## BroadfordQueen (7 November 2014)

I see my thread has been resurrected so just an update for you all.
I left yard in question just over a month ago- not just because of this issue, mainly because I found a cheaper/closer/quieter yard. No more rules about when to muck out, its lovely and makes my life so much easier- new YO (its just her one horse and my 2 girls there) was in shock at the rule and said she would never ask me to be mucked out by 12. Phew


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## smellsofhorse (7 November 2014)

BroadfordQueen said:



			I see my thread has been resurrected so just an update for you all.
I left yard in question just over a month ago- not just because of this issue, mainly because I found a cheaper/closer/quieter yard. No more rules about when to muck out, its lovely and makes my life so much easier- new YO (its just her one horse and my 2 girls there) was in shock at the rule and said she would never ask me to be mucked out by 12. Phew 

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That's good news, I hope you and your horses are happy at your new place.


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## pixie (8 November 2014)

I never used to have such rules in place, but sadly, as you'll find with a lot of rules, they are brought about because people are taking the piss.  A blanket rule is easier and fairer to enforce.


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## Tinypony (9 November 2014)

Good news that you've moved Op, hope it all goes well in the future.
Sitting here drinking coffee I had a read through the thread, interesting to read the different points of view.  It seems to me that things got a bit tangled between equine welfare and simple mucking out.
The yard rule was simply that everyone had to have their stables mucked out by a certain time of day.  People leaving horses in without sufficient hay, not bothering to go up at a reasonable time to turn them out etc... that's different really.  I think if you're renting a bit of building to someone you should take an interest if they are neglecting their horse.  But simple housekeeping like mucking out a stable is up to them.
Again, I am reminded why I like not being on a livery yard.  I'll think back on this when it's a bit of a struggle in the winter and value my freedom!


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## Shutterbug (9 November 2014)

My last yard was a yard of 30 horses - last winter, the vast majority of horses were stood in all day.  YO fed and hayed them but they were not mucked out till evenings.  My horses were 2 of the few that were turned out every day during the winter as I would not leave my horse stood in a dirty stable all day.  If they did have to stay in because of weather I would get up an hour early and muck out before work.  When I worked 4 12 hour shifts a week, I did get up extremely early and muck out my beds on work days because someone else was bringing them in and they needed to be done as I didn't finish work till 10pm. I don't know many people who actually muck their horses out before work to be honest.   I'm now on a very small private DIY yard with one other owner and 6 horses between us and none of our beds are regularly mucked out in the morning.  I'm at the yard at 6am every day, I feed and turn my horses out then I have to be at work for 8.30, sometimes earlier.  If I want to ride after work my beds are done in the morning so I have time in the evening. My guys have very thick beds and rubber matting and the stables are mucked out properly in the evening after work.  I have never had smelly beds, a build of urine or anything else and neither of my horses have ever been been adversely affected due to their beds not being mucked out till the evening.  They are in the field not caring if their bed is done or not.  Having said that if I was on a yard with that rule and I liked the yard I would be prepared to get up super early to muck out before work if that was what the YO wanted.  So I suppose it just depends how attached you are to a yard that sets that expectation


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