# SHB GB gradings



## Simsar (3 March 2011)

http://www.esphotography.co.uk/events/2011/day6/index.php


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## sallyf (3 March 2011)

Gosh not many entries does anyone know the results .


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## Simsar (3 March 2011)

Only one passed, that was Anne Bassets Aveia.


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## sallyf (3 March 2011)

Funnily enough i prefered Grahams Elusive Emir from the pictures and thought Aveia was rather flat crouped but perphaps it was the pictures .
Difficult to judge without seeing the horses and there limbs in real life.


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## Simsar (3 March 2011)

I will PM you Sally.


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## eventrider23 (3 March 2011)

Quite shocked Templar Spirit failed considering how much hype there was about him and how much he has been used ungraded.


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## chrissie1 (3 March 2011)

sallyf said:



			Funnily enough i prefered Grahams Elusive Emir from the pictures and thought Aveia was rather flat crouped but perphaps it was the pictures .
Difficult to judge without seeing the horses and there limbs in real life.
		
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I'm in agreement with Sally on this, I liked EE much more from the photos and didn't like the croup on Aveia.

Since the photographers website seemed rather erratic for me I'm not sure but don't think Classic is the same one that stands in Yorkshire at Beechwood grange?


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## maestro (3 March 2011)

Simsar did you go, could you pm your thoughts.  Many Thanks


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## Simsar (3 March 2011)

Yes I did go, can I PM tonight please.


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## sare_bear (3 March 2011)

Is that Mister Maccondy that Ruth Edge events? What did that fail on, as seen him out and about once and really liked him.


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## cundlegreen (3 March 2011)

From the photos,Mister Maccondy appears to be the best mover of the lot (several not tracking up). With his BE record, why on earth didn't he grade??


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## TheMule (3 March 2011)

Does this mean stallion gradings are turning into a showing class?!

My main impression of Aveia is he's fat and shiney with a pretty head but he doesn't do it for me with his backend.

Mister Maccondy undoubtedly has weaknesses but he shows a super jump and has a great record- including winning the BE 5yr old champs- what more could you want from a young event stallion?!


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## eventrider23 (3 March 2011)

As reagards Mister Maccondy there MUST have been some other reason for them failing him than the usual 'lack of competition record' as in his first and only season eventing so far i.e. last year, he amassed 20 BE Points, 90 FP Points and in 10 runs, won 7 of them, including as said the 5Yr old champs and the three events he didn't win, he was 2nd and 4th in!
http://www.britisheventing.com/asp-net/Events/Results.aspx?HorseId=86611


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## Simsar (3 March 2011)

eventrider23 said:



			Quite shocked Templar Spirit failed considering how much hype there was about him and how much he has been used ungraded.
		
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Yes but why not use an ungraded Stallion gone are the days when you saw a horse liked it used it, I met the american lady who I think owns him, he didn't float my boat but as you say others have used him.



sare_bear said:



			Is that Mister Maccondy that Ruth Edge events? What did that fail on, as seen him out and about once and really liked him.
		
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Yes in the photo's Ruth is the handler.  They will not tell you what they have failed on only the owners/handlers and if they want to make that public they can.  All I can say RE looked very ****** off!



cundlegreen said:



			From the photos,Mister Maccondy appears to be the best mover of the lot (several not tracking up). With his BE record, why on earth didn't he grade??
		
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I have to say I loved Classic but for obvious reasons would not use him (Foreign) He had manners to die for and his crew where very well prepared for the day fantastic little horse.



TheMule said:



			Does this mean stallion gradings are turning into a showing class?!

Funny you should say that AB is on the Stallion commitee!!!!!!!


My main impression of Aveia is he's fat and shiney with a pretty head but he doesn't do it for me with his backend.

Mister Maccondy undoubtedly has weaknesses but he shows a super jump and has a great record- including winning the BE 5yr old champs- what more could you want from a young event stallion?!
		
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Its a shame, the non TB's were the nicest movers I have to say.


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## Bearskin (3 March 2011)

Anne has had a stallion fail in the past.  How is her horse bred?  If a TB, has it raced or is it a homebred?  I think it is rather strange of SHB not to assess the TB stallions loose jumping, or ridden if they have not raced.  How can we discover the best lines to breed from if they are not assessed fully?


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## sallyf (3 March 2011)

Bearskin said:



			Anne has had a stallion fail in the past.  How is her horse bred?  If a TB, has it raced or is it a homebred?  I think it is rather strange of SHB not to assess the TB stallions loose jumping, or ridden if they have not raced.  How can we discover the best lines to breed from if they are not assessed fully?
		
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I have spoken with SHB about this recently and as they are short of good TB blood they are being a bit more lenient with regard to the stallions having to loose jump etc.
The stallion that graded hasnt raced in fact if you look on Racing post for him he isnt even known .
No idea how he is bred cant find any trace of him


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## CambridgeParamour (3 March 2011)

I'm quite surprised Mister Maccondy failed, he was really lovely. As someone else said, sure he has a few little weaknesses, but he jumped beautifully, and his comp record is great. 

I personally didn't think that much of Aveia. He was quite fat and was constantly kicking out and fidgeting in front of the judges. His head is very nice though 

Stallion gradings are getting more and more confusing.


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## Simsar (3 March 2011)

here is how he is bred

http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-P...e_number=7772472&registry=T&horse_name==Aveia


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## Simsar (3 March 2011)

Bearskin said:



			Anne has had a stallion fail in the past.  How is her horse bred?  If a TB, has it raced or is it a homebred?  I think it is rather strange of SHB not to assess the TB stallions loose jumping, or ridden if they have not raced.  How can we discover the best lines to breed from if they are not assessed fully?
		
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I'm sure she has, but they can't do it on lines alone surely, the horse had a small record and no progeny record, the movement and conformation was questionable, so how did it pass??


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## chrissie1 (3 March 2011)

ah, now I see AB's stallions breeding, they'd perhaps be 'hard pushed' to fail him.....  given the performance (showing) of his dam etc etc etc


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## eventrider23 (3 March 2011)

Yes but they then fail 3 yr olds themselves on lack of personal performance???


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## Simsar (4 March 2011)

Thank you everybody for your PM's I will have to catch up later today. 

Regards Sarah


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## henryhorn (4 March 2011)

Looking at the pics I would be disappointed if I owned some of those who failed, and on checking Mr Maccondy' BE record he's obviously trainable and talented, he showed a good jump and appears to move well too.
It does appear this grading seems nothing more than a beauty contest with proven competition results ignored. 
Sad because unless they start realising The Mr Maccondy's of this world are what an awful lot of riders would love to own, they will get fewer and fewer stallions presented in future. (I have no connection by the way, never seen a pic before yesterday!)


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## sallyf (4 March 2011)

I think this is a very difficult subject and i agree on the face of it Ruth Edges horse looked unlucky to fail but really unless we were there in person and seeing these horses stood up and moving on concrete we cannot really judge as we dont know if the judges saw something we cant from a photo.
It may be that he will be like Chilli morning who failed in a similar way but graded later when he performed at a higher level which gave him enough points to get over the pass mark. 
I went to one of the stallion parades and looked at a couple of horses that people rave about and i have to say i saw major conformation defects that most people didnt.
Its very easy to look at at flash horses and like it but its another to be able to strip down a horses basic conformation.
I dont like the horse that graded there are some things that are obvious about his conformation that i dont like but perphaps the judges felt they needed to grade something.
Personally i think that only TB's that have raced should be given the easy route that way at least if they are slow they have at least proved they can stay sound.


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## SmilingMadly (4 March 2011)

chrissie1 said:



			ah, now I see AB's stallions breeding, they'd perhaps be 'hard pushed' to fail him.....  given the performance (showing) of his dam etc etc etc
		
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Ditto!  I haven't seen him in the flesh since he was a foal, but he was STUNNING!!  I think that was the year (or one of them) that his dam won at HOYS, with him at foot.  His siblings (ex same dam) are all rather well known, so genetically he probably does have a lot to add...


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## eventrider23 (4 March 2011)

SmilingMadly said:



			Ditto!  I haven't seen him in the flesh since he was a foal, but he was STUNNING!!  I think that was the year (or one of them) that his dam won at HOYS, with him at foot.  His siblings (ex same dam) are all rather well known, so genetically he probably does have a lot to add...
		
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Yes BUT they have said in the past that they do not take into account parental achievements or showing records and things like futurity results, otherwise stallions like Zubin R would have licensed straight off based on who his sire is and the fact that he was the top scoring futurity 3 yr old.  So I don't see how they can pass a horse based on dam's showing performance....if that is the case then it is hypocritical.


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## SmilingMadly (4 March 2011)

Not if they are being more lenient towards TB's.  Zubin R is not a TB.  And besides, wasn't there controversy as to why he failed his grading and the scores he was awarded by the BEF panel?  At the end of the day, it's only a matter of opinion.


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## eventrider23 (4 March 2011)

Only used Zubin R as an example as he was later graded AES and got a Ster or something from KWPN on confo, which is what he failed SHB on...
i just find it baffling that they fail some youngsters on lack of a competition record....when they are 3......and yet look at another example, Sir Suave last year, who passed.....(note i like Sir Suave and not saying he shouldn't have)....just think is odd that they can fail horses on lack of record and you get one like Mister Meddicott who could not be more proven for a youngster and yet he fails....if only they would publish their results.


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## SmilingMadly (4 March 2011)

Agreed.  It's the same with their mare gradings.  Giving 0's for progeny performance, when the mare has produced a county winner....  And I'd like to know how a certain TB stallion, who failed his initial assessment with SHB(GB) when produced by his owner, was then the represented by a pro, not only passed, but won the Buchan trophy!  The discrepancy in his marks were amazing, I mean, how does a horse's head improve by 3 marks....?


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## cruiseline (4 March 2011)

SmilingMadly said:



			The discrepancy in his marks were amazing, I mean, how does a horse's head improve by 3 marks....?
		
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A good plastic surgeon  

I think it should be compulsory that all grading results be made public knowledge, that is the only way people can see that there is transparency within the system. Evaluators/judges should have the confidence in their convictions to go public with their opinions. After all BEF publicly announce their findings on all the young horses they evaluate, dressage test scores are publicly posted, they are all opinions. So why the secrecy at gradings?????


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## TheMule (4 March 2011)

chrissie1 said:



			ah, now I see AB's stallions breeding, they'd perhaps be 'hard pushed' to fail him.....  given the performance (showing) of his dam etc etc etc
		
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This just reinforces the idea that they are looking for show animals- not 'sports horses'. Unless they've changed their names to 'show horse beeding'.

I think it demonstrates complete incompetency on the behalf of the society to recognise what is really important in breeding. Really, who cares how pretty its head is- if it can win eventing with such consistancy as MrM has shown, what more do you really need to prove?


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## SmilingMadly (4 March 2011)

cruiseline said:



			A good plastic surgeon 

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LOL!!!




			I think it should be compulsory that all grading results be made public knowledge, that is the only way people can see that there is transparency within the system. Evaluators/judges should have the confidence in their convictions to go public with their opinions. After all BEF publicly announce their findings on all the young horses they evaluate, dressage test scores are publicly posted, they are all opinions. So why the secrecy at gradings?????
		
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I completely agree!!


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## Simsar (4 March 2011)

JuliaFSH said:



			I'm very proud to say that the first foal I ever bred Future Illicit Affair, who I only showed very lightly as a broodmare, went on to beat Aintree Oats at the National Hunter Show. Future Illicit Affair is the dam of my stallion Future Illusion, and she was by the stallion The Outlaw, that another poster on here bred - chrissie1.
		
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It's nice when that happens good for you.  Its like when my boy won at RIHS in hunter breeding as an unknown OMG nearly recieved death treats!!!  If the face fits, big shame.

Oh and Chrissie lovely lovely Stallion.


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## chrissie1 (5 March 2011)

TheMule said:



			This just reinforces the idea that they are looking for show animals- not 'sports horses'. Unless they've changed their names to 'show horse beeding'.

I think it demonstrates complete incompetency on the behalf of the society to recognise what is really important in breeding. Really, who cares how pretty its head is- if it can win eventing with such consistancy as MrM has shown, what more do you really need to prove?
		
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I added my remark rather 'tongue in cheek'......  not meaning that simply because the parents were household names meant the offspring should be graded as a right.  if that makes sense?


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## chrissie1 (5 March 2011)

Simsar said:



			I
Oh and Chrissie lovely lovely Stallion.

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Thank you!



Filly in my sig stems from the same family as The Outlaw.


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## sallyf (5 March 2011)

chrissie1 said:



			Thank you!



Filly in my sig stems from the same family as The Outlaw.
		
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Yes and she has just had a baby by my lovely boy
Very beautiful baby


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## Simsar (5 March 2011)

Lovely lovely lovely. x


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## chrissie1 (5 March 2011)

She is just how I like a foal, with a fab shoulder and short coupled.  But then again while I use some WB's, well OK these days a lot of WB's it seems, I stilll prefer them to look like 'hunters' or 'show horses'.  

You' d probably like this mare's two year old by Demonstrator!


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## sallyf (6 March 2011)

chrissie1 said:



			She is just how I like a foal, with a fab shoulder and short coupled.  But then again while I use some WB's, well OK these days a lot of WB's it seems, I stilll prefer them to look like 'hunters' or 'show horses'.  

You' d probably like this mare's two year old by Demonstrator!
		
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She is beautiful


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## Rollin (6 March 2011)

eventrider23 said:



			Only used Zubin R as an example as he was later graded AES and got a Ster or something from KWPN on confo, which is what he failed SHB on...
i just find it baffling that they fail some youngsters on lack of a competition record....when they are 3......and yet look at another example, Sir Suave last year, who passed.....(note i like Sir Suave and not saying he shouldn't have)....just think is odd that they can fail horses on lack of record and you get one like Mister Meddicott who could not be more proven for a youngster and yet he fails....if only they would publish their results.
		
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Well see my Shagya Colt post.  My three year old has just been approved for the stud book based on his confirmation and and movement he now has three years to prove performance in sj, dressage or endurance for his status to be confirmed.  We can use him to cover mares now.


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## Apercrumbie (6 March 2011)

While I am by no means an expert I am amazed that Mister Maccondy didn't pass.  He is quite clearly a classy horse with good movement, an excellent jump and an impeccable competition record.  For a horse of his age, you couldn't ask for any more proof that he is a good horse.  Furthermore, the fact that he has been so successful in his first season suggests that he is trainable and an excellent example of what everyone wants in a young eventer.  Is there someone with a more experienced eye who could point out any conformational defects?  I can't see any but I'm not qualified to say.

It is hard to judge Aveia who was passed from those pictures because there aren't enough to get a real impression of his movement and ability.  The pictures shown aren't very good so it is hard to tell, but from what I can see I don't like his back end much.  His rump seems a bit flat on top to me, giving the impression that he has a very long back.  The pictures in trot are awful so I will give him the benefit of the doubt that it is just timing on behalf of the photographer.

In fact, out of all of them, Mister Maccondy is the only stallion I really like, although I think Skip and Sea has real potential.  I just find it very confusing that the best example of an event horse isn't passed.  It also really annoys me that the reasoning behind their choices isn't published.  Transparency would surely lead to an increase in standards as people would have a better idea of what was required to pass.


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## Maesfen (6 March 2011)

Would be interesting to know who the graders were too, please Simsar.


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## maestro (6 March 2011)

Im sure I read that SHB(GB) are going to publish marks wether that is just the pass not sure.


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## eventrider23 (6 March 2011)

Isn't Skip and Sea already ID graded???


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## eventrider23 (6 March 2011)

Just checked their website and Skip and Sea is listed as a Grade 1 RID stallion so why wouldn't he A) automatically pass and B) why represent for SHB if already graded?
http://www.balinmorestud.com/skipandsea.htm

Also says he was awarded the 2010 IDHS GB fertility award for foals born in 2009..... very odd.


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## Simsar (6 March 2011)

Can't comment on why he is being presented for SHB maybe for a bigger mare book, dual registry?? I don't know.

He wouldn't automatically pass onto SHB as IDHS is a breed society not a performance stud book.

The fertility awards are for the previous years foaling returns.

Maesfen Sarah has the program so she will post the judges/inspectors names.


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## Simsar (8 March 2011)

Maesfen said:



			Would be interesting to know who the graders were too, please Simsar.
		
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MFH Stallion grading Judges were.

N Allen ESQ

SC Campbell ESQ

Mrs V Redbart


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## omen62 (8 March 2011)

It is far overdue now, these gradings need to be far more open.  There should be someone commentating after each horse is bought forward for inspection & then again after the loose jumping.  Mare owners are paying to use these stallions I do not see what the secret of their scores accomplishes.


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## omen62 (8 March 2011)

Simsar said:



			MFH Stallion grading Judges were.

N Allen ESQ

SC Campbell ESQ

Mrs V Redbart
		
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 - STAPLEFORD MILL FARM STUD, only in Soulbury so not far to travel to Addington then


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