# Sighthound recall - the glass ceiling



## Sarahsaurus (4 December 2017)

Very interested to hear from other sighthound owners who have taken on dogs with a high prey drive and the selective deafness that accompanies it.

Our gorgeous girl is a three year old half greyhound/half saluki.  We adopted her from Battersea aged 9 months with the strong suspicion that she had been used for coursing, so we knew that teaching reliable recall would be a challenge.  We spent over a year attending weekly training sessions, accompanied by daily recall practise when on walks and have persevered for long periods of time with all the usual tricks and tips including the following:-

1. Practising recall on a long-line (she is the perfect dog when on the long-line, a nightmare once off)
2. High value treats (despite loving her food and us only giving these sparingly she is still more interested in other dogs/wildlife and will often ignore the treats)
3. Favourite toy/ball (gave this up quickly, sighthounds are not generally toy incentivised)
4. Running backwards and making ourselves "the most exciting thing ever" (she looks at us bemused and carries on whatever she is doing)
5. Hiding behind trees (she will eventually come looking for me after several minutes but this is not helpful in a situation where I need her back quickly)
6. Trying to keep her by our side in the first place rather than running off (she is a sighthound and we want her to be able to stretch her legs, unfortunately she will never be the type of dog to happily trot along at our heels)

I will also add that I have grown up with sighthounds and volunteered with them, so we did not come at this from a novice perspective and we felt relatively well prepared for the challenge. 

After two years of the above she has improved significantly but I believe we have hit a glass ceiling.  We only let her off lead in relatively enclosed areas where there is no other wildlife but our problem is with other dogs. She just LOVES them. She is friendly, bouncy and playful and we love to see her run with other dogs, but of course not all dogs are suitable playmates and not all owners want their dog chased by a 35mph missile.  When the time comes to separate the dogs she refuses to come back and will dance circles around us all or continue to chase the other dog across the field.  She knows her commands and understands exactly what is expected of her, she simply refuses to do it as she is having too good a time.  Cue one embarrassed owner and other, understandably, fed up dog owners.  It has become very stressful and has made our daily walks more of a chore than a pleasure. I dread coming across other dogs because I'm torn between wanting her to play and anticipating the stress of not being able to get her back when it's time to leave.  It is not possible to walk locally without encountering other dogs, nor would I want to from a socialisation perspective.  

Should I accept that we will never fully "crack" recall with her and make the decision to only give her long, on-lead walks combined with regular off-lead sessions in a hired paddock, or is it too soon to give up on recall?  If we gave up on off-lead walking I would try to enrich her life with other enjoyable activities such as beginners agility or trick classes.   

Many of the greyhounds I volunteer with will never be able to cope off lead in public due to being ex-racers, and I have to say part of me would feel relieved to hear from others that perhaps this just isn't something we will ever conquer and it might be better to accept her limitations and work around them.  Equally if there is more work we could do to improve it I don't want to cheat her of the chance to enjoy safe, off-lead walks.

Any thoughts very much welcome.


----------



## druid (4 December 2017)

It is do-able but you need to proof the recall slowly in the face of distractions - it sounds like your recall command doesn't mean "come here now" but "come here when you feel like it". 

I've got a Deerhound x whippet, was used for illegal deer hunting prior to being seized from his "delightful" owners and latterly lure racing. Now works as a gundog picking up - immaculate recall. We went through the whole Total Recall book slowly over a year - never, ever repeated the recall command etc and he is 100% working through sheep, dogs, deer, live pheasants etc now


----------



## splashgirl45 (4 December 2017)

i didnt have the other dogs problem with my lurcher, just the wildlife....  the only way i managed to stop her from zooming off was to be very alert myself and as soon as i saw her looking into the distance, i used a whistle to get her attention, gave her a high value treat which i only used for the whistle recall and put her on the lead for a short while until the deer,rabbit etc had gone.      i have the other dog problem with my 9 month old terrier and if i dont see the other dog first there is no point calling him once he is on his way, he loves all other dogs and other owners have been ok as he is so tiny he couldnt hurt anything else as they are all bigger than him.. i am about to find my whistle and try it on him to see if it works as well as it did with my lurcher.  good luck


----------



## CorvusCorax (4 December 2017)

From the other side of the coin, I have one of those dogs who hates other dogs bombing up to him to play (Goth Kid at the Youth Club).
It's about picking your battles. I would never go to a busy park on a Saturday. That's just madness and setting everyone up to fail.
I am never going to have a dog who plays nicely with others, he is neutral when they are but if they get up in his face he will tell them to do one. Loudly. A nice mix of poor early experience and genetics.
I keep my eyes open.
I choose to walk in areas where I can see all around me and can recall in time if another dog approaches. If I cannot see round the corner, on a lead he goes.
To be fair, there are a lot of skinny dogs who want to play zoomies and they are the least of my worries, they do just run up and down and have a great time and don't physically bother my dog at all, unlike the two rude ones that bombed over with owners miles away, last night, and stuck their heads up his jaxie while I kept him busy playing with a ball at the other end. 
That annoys me.

Greys, whippeys, salukis and lurchers doing their zoomy thing on the way past, I find quite charming and I can still keep him busy with his ball. The few that do instigate play, immediately understand that is isn't his bag, read the body language (Labradors, take note lol!!!) and zoom off to find someone less grumpy to play with.


----------



## {97702} (4 December 2017)

Im going through similar problems with my latest rescue lurcher - on a walk she goes into a complete trance and is totally focussed on birds/animals/things rustling in the undergrowth.  It is as if I dont exist - she isnt motivated by toys or good, she is selectively deaf to voice or whistle.

At the moment she is on a long line on walks as otherwise she takes off into the distance at top speed as soon as she is let off the lead. 

Im at a loss what to do with her, she is only approx 18 months old so I know she will settle in time but for the moment she is being very challenging! Ive had quite a few rescue greyhounds (5) as well as whippets (2) and lurchers (4) and none of them have been like this


----------



## planete (4 December 2017)

I have found it depends very much on the lurcher.  Some have got such a high prey drive they will never be 100% reliable, while others less highly obsessive and of a more biddable make-up can be trained effectively.  All you can do is do what Druid has done, go through the training detailed in Total Recall by Pippa Mattinson and hope you have one of the easier ones.  I have three lurchers, one has great recall and can be stopped if told to wait before 'take off ' when prey is spotted, the second one can sometimes be recalled perfectly and at other times not at all, and the third one is only ever off lead in enclosed spaces (where she has great recall!) as her mindset is such that the slightest sound, smell or movement triggers a chase and a strike in a split second, and she does not care what it is either. 

Agility, flyball, anything to expend the dog's energy and channel it would be beneficial anyway and would increase the bond and understanding between you and help the dog focus on you.


----------



## Clodagh (4 December 2017)

I'm afriad I have never met anything with saluki in it to be 100%. Lovely dogs, but the only one they are accountable to is themselves.


----------



## Fools Motto (4 December 2017)

My late grandmother who used to breed whippets tied young onto old, to stop young getting any fancy ideas of ''going hunting!''.  Basically paired them up, old have good manners, young learn from it. It seemed to work.
(Are hounds coupled still now?)


----------



## {97702} (4 December 2017)

Fools Motto said:



			My late grandmother who used to breed whippets tied young onto old, to stop young getting any fancy ideas of ''going hunting!''.  Basically paired them up, old have good manners, young learn from it. It seemed to work.
(Are hounds coupled still now?)
		
Click to expand...

Now there is an idea - Amy is 100% with her recall......


----------



## The Fuzzy Furry (4 December 2017)

Fools Motto said:



			My late grandmother who used to breed whippets tied young onto old, to stop young getting any fancy ideas of ''going hunting!''.  Basically paired them up, old have good manners, young learn from it. It seemed to work.
(Are hounds coupled still now?)
		
Click to expand...

I've done that a few times with lurchers (one a huge iwh x dh) tied on a long line to either my gsd or rottie.
On the whole it worked v well for training, especially up in my top fields. 
Mother had a number of dh crosses as well as a mandatory collie over the years, usually 3 dogs at a time.....so with mine we had 6 or 7 at a time for about 20 yrs or so at the yard.


----------



## SusieT (4 December 2017)

Im afraid you need to face the fact that allowing her to be free to play with any dog you meet i.e. those that may or may not appreciate it is not fair on other owners nor is it going to help your control. I'd join a local doggy club or similar, there are often fun groups for dogs - or consider taking up canicross or similar.
And hire secure areas or go to areas where no other dogs are likely to let her off


----------



## honetpot (4 December 2017)

I have had two, one as a rescue and one from a pup, and neither could be relied upon.
  The one that I have had from a pup is X deerhound, so is large and seeing him bounding up scars the **** out of people. He is fairly obedient most of the time, as he is lazy, but in hare type situations you just have to be one step a head. His anchor is my other dog, and if I lose him I call her and he thinks he is missing something and comes.
   Even at nearly eight he will still jump up at people with excitement, friends who have sometimes offered to have them when we are away for the weekend have no idea how far and fast they can go in about 30 seconds. Our garden is well fenced and then we have an outside fence as well.
  We have five cats and neither lurcher has ever chased them, they are cowards and hate pain so one good scrap at close quarters has warned them off, even with food. Its funny to see an under sized Siamese bully two very large dogs.


----------



## paisley (5 December 2017)

Having gone through all the items on your list to improve my whippets recall, its time to ask yourself ' Am I less or more interesting than the other dogs/rabbits?' out on walks . I was lucky in that he would panic if I hid somewhere.

The other thing I found to be useful was teaching 'wait', based on the notion that stopping them from scampering off would solve the little treasures refusal to come back. 

So, if you can get a solid response doing this, you could get her to sit as well, and hopefully get a better attention span for the other times. Mine would eventually stop dead about 100m ahead and not budge till I caught up with him.


----------



## CMcC (5 December 2017)

OP I have almost exactly the same story:

Battersea Greyhound/Saluki, can to me after being in the Home with a very badly broken leg. Had definitely been used for coursing. Was very nervous of people.

5 years on she has some recall and I can let her off the lead in secure space, would never let her off lead in open spaces (I tried it once and she took after a rabbit, fortunately she found her own way home) she will either go off after wildlife or if she meets people she doesn't like (men with grey hair are the worse) will leg it.

So am resigned to on lead walks and opportunity for lurcher running in secure space.


----------



## Leo Walker (5 December 2017)

She wont have been used for coursing at 9 months old. However salukis are notoriously difficult dogs. They have a very independent nature combined with a high prey drive. I've got whippets with good recall, but we still dont ever let them off anywhere thats not secure or that has easy access to a road. They can have the best recall in the world but if a rabbit jumps up in front of them they will chase it. I also find them much worse behaved in parks, where there are lots of people and other dogs. They like to do fly bys where they gallop past other dogs and try and entice them to chase. We tend to avoid parks at popular dog walking times as I dont want them bothering other peoples dogs and dont want them stuck on the lead all the time. 

Mine are both working bred. The oldest was a rescue and was a very difficult dog to start with. The younger we have had from a puppy and he is an absolute joy! I love the working brain and attitude but dont want to actually work them, so I put a bit of effort into making them think they are working when really they arent. 

When he was at his worst we incorporated so many different things. We went to obedience classes which he hated! Hes clever but wont do anything more than once before hes bored and just shuts down. He enjoyed trick training though and we used to go to a hired paddock and play with the agility obstacles.  We took him out for car walks, went for lead walks round shops, went to visit people, and never ever, ever repeated the same walk twice in a month. We played brain games in the house. We hid and let him find us to get a reward. We took him swimming and taught him to retrieve out of water. Anything and everything we could think of to mentally tire him out. 

Could you look for someone local with other sighthounds who might be interested in play dates? There are groups dotted round the country that do lure racing that would be worth looking into, I did a fair bit of this with the oldest whippet when he was about 18months. Having an outlet for his drive made him much more manageable the rest of the time. We did lots and lots and lots of flirt pole work as well! Both will fetch and retrieve. They arent interested in the retrieving bit but do it because they love the chase bit that follows. If you can get them interested in something like that it makes it much easier to keep their focus on you. 

Both mine are total pigs, so a small portion of their food is used as treats for recalling and general good behaviour. With the older dog I spent a lot of time in the early days turning round and running in the opposite direction and hiding. He knows if I go he has to follow me as I mean it and will just disappear. It also incorporates chasing which is what he lives for anyway.

He did go through a phase of the dancing round you like you describe. He thought this was a brilliant game! So again, we just walked off. We did once have to get in the car and pretend to drive away before he really got the message. He hasnt done it in years, but they never forget. When I was in hopsital he went to stay with a friend. Her husband walked him and couldnt catch him for over an hour! He had to ring work and tell them he would be late as he couldnt catch the delinquent dog! I was mortified! I forget sometimes what a little sod he was! 

The other thing that made a difference was changing his food to raw food. It took the slightly manic edge off him. 

Hes a different dog now and proof that a combination of them growing up a bit and lots and lots and lots and lots of training does work


----------



## Sarahsaurus (5 December 2017)

Thanks everyone for all of your responses so far, very interesting and useful to hear others' stories.  

Druid, weve consulted many training guides and books but Total Recall isnt actually one of them, so I will try to get my hands on a copy.  Happy to go back to basics with her and youre right to say perhaps she doesnt understand the urgency of the instruction.  I have slipped into the habit of repeating the command.  Similarly splashgirl45 I will look at whistle training again.  We did give it a go a year or so ago but didnt keep on, but I know there is logic in whistle training as it doesnt carry the same emotional tones or inflections as a voice command and perhaps she will be more responsive to that than my increasingly desperate calls!

CorvusCorax yes I try to be as considerate as possible of other dog owners to minimise the risk of such encounters occurring.  Ours can feel a little worried on the lead if an off-lead dog comes over and invades her personal space so I know how it is to have a dog bombing over without an owner when youd rather they kept a distance.  We follow the usual etiquette in that if the other dog is on a lead or a toy breed she goes straight on the lead herself, as I cant trust her not to approach.  If the other dog is medium-large size, off-lead and all the body language is relaxed I let her approach and I just call ahead to the owner to warn them that she is very playful so it gives them the opportunity to tell me if theyd rather she didnt, in which case again she goes on the lead until weve passed.  Calling her away from other dogs only becomes an issue when the game has ended or the other dog has had enough and shes still prancing around them and play-pouncing!  As with some rescues she has the best intentions but not so great at reading social cues from other dogs.  Fortunately she doesnt like dogs who bark at her so one yap and she will change her mind!

Planete, flyball is another one I think shed really enjoy, good reminder.

honetpot, yes, agree with always having to be one step ahead and always on high alert.  Im hoping when she reaches her twilight years I may have the chance to enjoy a few walks just strolling along lost in my own thoughtsbut until we are on the lookout for every cat/squirrel/deer/open gate/hole in fox wire/potential opportunity for mischief we can!

Paisley yes interestingly we also get a slightly better success rate with wait rather than come.  Perhaps because stopping requires less effort than returning! Trick for us is to deploy the wait in the small window we have between spotting something of interest and entering into full flight mode.  Once shes going flat out we have no hope

Unfortunately we do think she was started young as she had old scars compatible with the usual scratch wounds and dew claws surgically removed.  Batterseas assessment of her was a not-so-optimistic give recall a go but you may be about to take a dog that will spend her life on the lead, though to a degree I believe they say the same for all sighthounds.  Found Battersea to be wonderful in terms of the rehoming process though and hope you found the came CMcC, very frank about each dogs strengths and challenges, thorough in their vetting process and really held us to measure before deciding that we were well placed to take her on.  A family member also has a lurcher but rescued her as a young puppy and has had a completely different experience - very biddable, cat friendly and far less inclined to chase. Leo, yes completely agree with variety, I alternate walks between approximately 8 different locations to try to stave off boredom.  We have arranged sighthound playdates in the past but bizarrely when shes in an enclosed space with another hound she is usually done after about 5 minutes of play and completely ignores them for the remainder of the session!  Such a contrary madam!  Even on her good days I never forget what a diva she can be when she chooses though!  I think all pride and dignity went out of the window the day we got her.  Since then Ive had to climb down to retrieve her from the bottom of disused quarries, wade waist-deep across rivers to collect her from the opposite bank, carry her deadweight bodyguard style across acres of fields to get back to the car when shed ever so slightly hurt her leg and decided she couldnt possibly walk back (took her to vet, leg absolutely fine).  Zero humour in the moment that it happens but I look back on it all fondly now!


----------



## Peter7917 (5 December 2017)

This post will not make me popular.  

I have a saluki type who sounds exactly like yours. I did tonnes of training with her but nothing I did could get her back once she got in that 'zone' she was particularly bad with chasing cows. 

I used a shock collar. I must have zapped her with it 2-3 times. It resolved her completely. She now responds first time, every time.


----------



## cremedemonthe (5 December 2017)

Clodagh said:



			I'm afriad I have never met anything with saluki in it to be 100%. Lovely dogs, but the only one they are accountable to is themselves.
		
Click to expand...

THIS 1000%, it's the damn Saluki in them,. Mine, Saluki x Whippet will come back from 400 yards if I merely call her and raise my hand but ONLY if she wants to and there's no dogs, bunnies etc to chase. I have to see other dogs before she does or it's bye bye Daisy. Being taller then she is is an advantage and I have about 3 seconds to get her on a lead or she's off, favourite toys are small fluffy dogs that can't possibly out run a 35 mph rocket. Now I have moved and she's got her own 2 acre field to fly round with my other dogs it's easier, but if she's in the mood she's off out the door and up the lane looking for cats etc. Like you I did all the training and it makes no difference one bit, if it's got Saluki in it, selective hearing is part of the deal and that's something you just have to live with. I think bitches are worse than dogs and are more wilful


----------



## honetpot (5 December 2017)

They are such wimps I could not risk it. 
The rescue dog was petrified of being beaten , and when caught on the electric fence would go and hide, in fact I think that's why most of the rescue ones run off. They would rather fend for them selves than go back, my rescue you could not raise your voice to at all. I can not think a command associated with any sort of pain would have been of any use.
  Even my RottiX got caught by the electric fence when my helper was nearby and after a year she is still wary of her even she has made the effort to fuss and make friends.


----------



## Pearlsasinger (5 December 2017)

honetpot said:



			They are such wimps I could not risk it. 
The rescue dog was petrified of being beaten , and when caught on the electric fence would go and hide, in fact I think that's why most of the rescue ones run off. They would rather fend for them selves than go back, my rescue you could not raise your voice to at all. I can not think a command associated with any sort of pain would have been of any use.
  Even my RottiX got caught by the electric fence when my helper was nearby and after a year she is still wary of her even she has made the effort to fuss and make friends.
		
Click to expand...

We have 'lined' our gates from yard to field with electric fencing to keep the Rotts in the yard whatever happens - we have sheep, as do our neighbours and we can't risk the dogs getting in amongst them.  If the girls ever catch themselves on the fence, they are mortified and keep away for weeks (most of the time, it isn't switched on).  They also look horrified if canine visitors go anywhere near the fence. I wouldn't want to use an electric shock collar for training.  Although I must admit that recall isn't their greatest achievement


----------



## Beausmate (5 December 2017)

To train a Saluki, first find a cat trainer...


----------



## cremedemonthe (6 December 2017)

Beausmate said:



			To train a Saluki, first find a cat trainer...
		
Click to expand...

lol


----------

