# Bute .... Long term use



## Achinghips (2 November 2016)

Bute for arthritis. I've tried turmeric, Devils claw, no bute, boswelia ..... You name it, I've tried it and nothing comes close to improving comfort in my old boys hocks. He is a massive heavy.  

He's due his second steroid injections soon into hocks. I'm warned of the over use of bute, but how much is too much and over what period of time please? Danillon I know, is kinder, but long term use, does the same apply?


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## Pearlsasinger (2 November 2016)

You have to make a judgement about quality of life, a horse which is experiencing arthritic pain needs an effective painkiller. We had  a mare on bite for about 10 yrs, ridden and then retired. Every so often, she seemed to get tired, so we gave her a week off bute. She lived un til she was 31 and had no problems other than arthritis.
I remember a vet telling me that my dog would probably have come tyo the end of her life, long before the bite that she was prescribed would affect her.


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## Achinghips (2 November 2016)

That's good to know, thanks. You are right, it is all about quality of life. Hopefully his hock will fuse on it's own over the summer and then I can stop it with the bute.  The other is nearly fused already.  It's a painful condition and I'm not expecting his steroid injection to last longer than mid January if I'm lucky. If you have any winter tips I'd be grateful, he has  back on track hock boots and I try to keep his weight down as far as is possible for a heavy and hack him in straight lines.


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## be positive (2 November 2016)

Pearlsasinger said:



			You have to make a judgement about quality of life, a horse which is experiencing arthritic pain needs an effective painkiller. We had  a mare on bite for about 10 yrs, ridden and then retired. Every so often, she seemed to get tired, so we gave her a week off bute. She lived un til she was 31 and had no problems other than arthritis.
I remember a vet telling me that my dog would probably have come tyo the end of her life, long before the bite that she was prescribed would affect her.
		
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This, the better they feel the better their life, any of the herbal options still have an effect on the liver which is possibly more of a risk as they will not have been tested in the way bute has, there is a risk of ulcers but as long as you are aware of the risks you can manage them, I would put him on what gives him most benefit and accept he may have a slightly shorter but more comfortable life.


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## PorkChop (2 November 2016)

In your situation I would use bute or danillon.

Have you talked to your Vet about chemically fusing his hocks?


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## paddy555 (2 November 2016)

As I see it if your horse is in pain with his arthritis you have to do something and if you don't use bute the quality of his life will become so poor it may well be PTS.  If bute has side effects idc you may well have to PTS but at a later stage. However if bute/danilon works as it does for many your horse has a reasonable quality of life and you get to keep him for a lot longer. No contest in my view. 

If bute controls the pain you could be talking about being on it for a very long time. There are a lot of comments about the damage it does to the horse but IMHO what use are a perfect digestive system etc to a horse about to be PTS for pain issues? May just as well throw everything at it to keep the pain under control. 

I try and target the use of bute. If possible take him off it in the summer for a while, if I can get him off it then when he starts to get bad I start him on the initial dose again ie 2 am and 2 pm on the first day etc and see if I can wean him off it after 10 days or so just to deal with a flare up. 

In a long wet winter I just leave him on it. It is a case of learning from your horse and trying to manage the situation. 

as someone said your horse will probably die of something totally unrelated long before the bute causes a problem.


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## Achinghips (3 November 2016)

LJR said:



			In your situation I would use bute or danillon.

Have you talked to your Vet about chemically fusing his hocks?
		
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Not yet, not quite ready for that as he has only had one set of steroid injections at this point. I had this done with another horse and it didn't work so not keen in the idea tbh, but won't discount it
He is having more steroid injections on Friday.


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## PorkChop (3 November 2016)

Achinghips said:



			Not yet, not quite ready for that as he has only had one set of steroid injections at this point. I had this done with another horse and it didn't work so not keen in the idea tbh, but won't discount it
He is having more steroid injections on Friday.
		
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At least you have experience of it so can make an informed decision.

Hope his next set of injections keep him comfortable for longer, I am going through something similar with one of ours in that two courses of steroids have not seen an improvement so I feel your pain x


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## Auslander (3 November 2016)

A wise (wo)man once said to me "Old age will get him before bute wrecks his liver".

I use bute tectically - he has a dose when he loooks like he needs it. In terms of other things I've used, Harpagyl (Audevard) is the only thing that has made a noticeable difference to his comfort. I've given up on joint supplements - don't feed anything now but a balancer.


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## Goldenstar (3 November 2016)

I would certainly consider fusion .
But before you get to that there's cartofen which I have just had a great result with .
There's the Tildren type drugs .
And there's a new treatment just launched in the uk from Australia which my practice just used for the first time it's injected in to the joint were it forms a smooth gel that allows the joint to function better , it's supposed to last years hope I have got all that right as I was helping him do a dental at the time and only half attending .
Danilon ( I don't use bute unless I need to give a paste ) has very very good results from long term use .
I am using cartofen on Fatty I using the money that I would be spending on a supplement where basically you don't really know if it helps and using cartofen instead injected into the muscle it's safer for the joint than steroids .
I always have Danilon ready to give him if the arthritis flares up .
Increasingly I worry that there are horses necessarily soldiering on with pain because we are giving them herbal and other supplements when Danilon is not expensive when you consider what a good joint supp costs .
I have learnt a lot about managing arthritis because I have it myself now I don't think I fully understood it before .
Keep the horse slim ( a nightmare in Fatties case ) keep it working and work it properly so it keeps the correct muscle tone ,keep it out as much as possible but don't let it get cold use the biggest stable you can and use a good acpat physio regularly about every six weeks seems to work for us .


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## nikkimariet (3 November 2016)

I would think very carefully about hock fusing. It's not a proven treatment, and doesn't always provide the results we hope for.

Tough call.


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## PorkChop (3 November 2016)

Goldenstar said:



			And there's a new treatment just launched in the uk from Australia which my practice just used for the first time it's injected in to the joint were it forms a smooth gel that allows the joint to function better , it's supposed to last years hope I have got all that right as I was helping him do a dental at the time and only half attending .
		
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I would be interested in the name of this if you do happen to remember!


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## smja (4 November 2016)

Nothing to do with hocks I'm afraid, but old pony was on danilon for the guts of two years with no noticeable side effects.

Vet's advice was to give him as much as he needed to stay comfortable and weight his foot while it healed, so we just looked at him each day and gave him whatever we thought would do the trick.

He was 18/19/20, and if the foot didn't heal right it would have been PTS, so it was the lesser evil.


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## NOISYGIRL (4 November 2016)

Achinghips said:



			Bute for arthritis. I've tried turmeric, Devils claw, no bute, boswelia ..... You name it, I've tried it and nothing comes close to improving comfort in my old boys hocks. He is a massive heavy.  

He's due his second steroid injections soon into hocks. I'm warned of the over use of bute, but how much is too much and over what period of time please? Danillon I know, is kinder, but long term use, does the same apply?
		
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I used danilon for mine daily since May 2000 he has only recently stopped eating it and have found him ok since being on his cushings medication.  I would not worry about long term use, he would still be on it if he would eat it.  Danilon is more palatable.  I would rather the time he has left be as comfortable as possible and danilon is kinder apparently than bute


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## fairhill (4 November 2016)

LJR said:



			I would be interested in the name of this if you do happen to remember!
		
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Might be arthramed, just tried it for my mare in her coffin joint.


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## impresario08 (4 November 2016)

I manage my boy through cartrophen injections and danilon


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## Izzwizz (5 November 2016)

impresario08 said:



			I manage my boy through cartrophen injections and danilon
		
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Exactly what I do along with regular physio with a proper Physiotherapist every 3 months with massage in between.  We also use  a massage pad.  So far so good and he's 15.


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## gunnergundog (5 November 2016)

OP.......if  you are already injecting the hocks with steroids make sure that the vets add HA into the mix - it can make quite a difference.   Not all vets use it as standard as it does bump up the cost.


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## impresario08 (7 November 2016)

Izzwizz said:



			Exactly what I do along with regular physio with a proper Physiotherapist every 3 months with massage in between.  We also use  a massage pad.  So far so good and he's 15.
		
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oh yeah he also has regular physio


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## impresario08 (7 November 2016)

fairhill said:



			Might be arthramed, just tried it for my mare in her coffin joint.
		
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this? http://arthramid.com/


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## Achinghips (7 November 2016)

gunnergundog said:



			OP.......if  you are already injecting the hocks with steroids make sure that the vets add HA into the mix - it can make quite a difference.   Not all vets use it as standard as it does bump up the cost.
		
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Vet will only injecti cortisone at this stage, there is a 30 percent improvement today from his Friday afternoon steroids, still awaiting a better result.

He has mentioned cartophen and osphos if these injections don't work


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## fairhill (7 November 2016)

impresario08 said:



			this? http://arthramid.com/

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Yes, that's the stuff!


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