# A 3 year study to tell us what we already know!



## JanetGeorge (13 May 2011)

'Shocking snapshot of equestrian Britain!'

(Shame on you H&H for that headline, more fitted to the Sun!)

Gee - passports aren't working!  Gee - there are shady dealers selling horses without passports or with the wrong passports!  And Gee - some breeders are breeding rubbish!

And the recommendations:

1.  Registration and licensing for breeders!  
Nice idea - if you like bureaucracy - but it will never fly - because it will cost a lot of money!  Remind ourselves why stallion licensing and dog licensing were discontinued!

2.  A review of the Tripartite agreement - no ***** Sherlock!  The Tripartite agreement is the 2nd biggest hole in our equine health defence system!

3.  More robust checks of horses imported at ports.  Elementary my dear Watson!  I looked at a horse for Trading Standards last year - its passport showed vaccinations in Holland in 2005 - and in Wales in 2010.  It had allegedly been in Ireland in 2008-2009.  There was NOTHING on its passport to indicate anyone had LOOKED at it on its travels.  THAT is the biggest hole in our equine health defence system - dodgy dealers bringing in cheap horses from elsewhere - and many - I suspect - from the French fattening farms - that haven't been within 50 miles of a health check!  And I'll bet many of you could cite other examples - there must be thousands of them around!

4.  Stronger enforcement of ragwort laws.  The horse industry - and most particularly the BHS - have been campaigning for this for YEARS!

5.  Better regulation of equine foodstuffs - yep - that would be nice (SOME regulation would be nice!)

6.  A single national passport and microchip-issuing agency that would maintain the National Equine Database!  (Gee - do we think DEFRA has been waiting for this report to back up its plans in this regard - as it has JUST called another 'consultation' meeting!)  Not sure it would help - and it WILL be fiercely resisted by the vast majority of breed societies and other PIO's!

7.  Registration of livery yards, breeding premises, riding schools (wake up dearie - they ARE licensed already), dealers and sanctuaries - possibly by a third party.

No real problem with this - other than the number 1 problem - MONEY!

The Government is trying to cut costs - everywhere!  To carry out these recommendations would cost MILLIONS - and I don't mean 3 or 4 millions!  Local Authorities don't have enough T/S and AH officers to do the work currently on their plates - and no budget to employ more!

Discuss??


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## Kaylum (13 May 2011)

It certainly would cost millions and just as they have cut over 200 jobs at my work.  Nice!


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## ofcourseyoucan (13 May 2011)

JOB CREATION!!!! most of it is health and safety gone bonkers. health and safety came in when common sense went out. sadly most of it will never happen due to cost, though it doesnt stop gov wasting money doing "research" and surveys. suppose it keeps some in a job!!


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## Zuzan (14 May 2011)

Agree same old same old..  

I've had an absolute nightmare getting ragwort controls inforced.. after reporting to Defra and providing a vast number of dated / time stamped photos for evidence... Defra imbelicile pretty much accused me of causing trouble..  not only did the land have grazing animals on it but was affecting neighbouring land..  

there needs to be a complete shift of attitude to ragwort WITHIN defra never mind cheapskate land managers..  (land in question is a shooting estate of great ill repute and makes a shed load of dosh from its shooting and windfarm concerns so not a hardship case....)

Re passports completely agree they are so half baked and really only there to ensure medicated animals don't get into human food..  

And still the totally inhuman transport of horses for meat goes on..  

HOWEVER having a bit of inside track into the workings of govt / civil service (for my sins) policy has to be developed based on absolute certainties..  (read common sense to you and me) which has to be proven ..  hence the numerous "studies" which effectively state the obvious..


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## EstherHegt (14 May 2011)

Zuzan said:



			Agree same old same old..  

I've had an absolute nightmare getting ragwort controls inforced.. after reporting to Defra and providing a vast number of dated / time stamped photos for evidence... Defra imbelicile pretty much accused me of causing trouble..  not only did the land have grazing animals on it but was affecting neighbouring land..
		
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In the Netherlands we have the same, but I am happy  we have no law against ragwort, luckily the law cannot explained wrong, as a horsekeeper we are responsible by our self for managing our own pasture and our horses. Pasture management is our own responsibilty here, we don't blame nature by law.


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## Zuzan (14 May 2011)

Dear G ...  a Dutch under bridge dweller.. (it appears the norse tales are alive and kicking on H&H) google translation is even better than the english


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## The Voice (16 May 2011)

There was a study done about 10 years ago which came up with similar recomendations, was never acted upon which has left the equestrian industry and sports in a very serious condition which they may never recover from, especially with the current economic situation getting worse. People were told things and chose to ignore the advice. There were too many people looking to protect their own little empires.

Many people may look at the equestrian industry, sport and leisure through rose tinted glasses, but reality is that more and more people are turning their backs on horses especially with the rising costs asociated with them. People used to give up everything for their horses, but when there is nothing else to give up, reality kicks in. There is now really only a hardcore of people left and how many of these are 40 somethings?

Lifestyles changed, the enviroment changed, economic situations changed, equestrian didn't.


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## FairyLights (16 May 2011)

The Voice said:



			Many people may look at the equestrian industry, sport and leisure through rose tinted glasses, but reality is that more and more people are turning their backs on horses especially with the rising costs asociated with them. People used to give up everything for their horses, but when there is nothing else to give up, reality kicks in. There is now really only a hardcore of people left and how many of these are 40 somethings?

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How very true


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## Shilasdair (16 May 2011)

I haven't read the study itself, only the very poor H & H article.
My immediate thoughts were - how can three Welsh counties be considered representative of the whole of the UK.
And secondly, who is this marvellous creature (the Project Officer) who is qualified to determine absolutely what is good/bad conformation to the extent that she can put a percentage on it.
I once supervised a student dissertation aiming to link conformation of the knee in racehorses to subsequent injury rates - very challenging.  This Project Officer can however, glance at a horse and determine its genetic value.
S


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## 1stclassalan (16 May 2011)

The biggest hurdle to any kind of regulation in Horseyworld is the fact that it is seen to be striking at the very heart of chivalry - a gentleman needs no one to tell him how to look after his 'oss. Fine of course if you happen to be a Gentleman but these days many folk have availed themselves of the cash neccesary to buy a horse without necessarily being possessed of any further wherewithal.

And as true Horseyness is rather like the British Constitution - ( unwritten, unquantified but there's no end of folk who will tell they know what it is ) there is also underclass of people with horses that shouldn't really be left in charge of a dead rat!

However, most arguements against some kind of registration etc., not being workable because the expense fall do not make sense to me as they should be self financing and relatively cheap to adminster - so long as the folk put in charge of it aren't allowed to turn it into their own European Parliament. Vast fines from miscreants would also help.

Stupid breeding should be stopped and that goes for the people as well as the poor horses.

Complaining to authoroties about ragwort will fall between two stools because whereas it is a noxious notifiable weed it is also the only food plant of the Cinabar Burnet and guarded by the Wildlife and Countryside Act.


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## JanetGeorge (16 May 2011)

The Voice said:



			People used to give up everything for their horses, but when there is nothing else to give up, reality kicks in. There is now really only a hardcore of people left and how many of these are 40 somethings?
		
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I'm not sure I agree with you.  MOST of the people I sell horses to are young professionals, under 40, who have been riding a relatively short time (and therefore looking for nice quality young horses that won't kill them!)


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## Kaylum (16 May 2011)

The Voice said:



			There was a study done about 10 years ago which came up with similar recomendations, was never acted upon which has left the equestrian industry and sports in a very serious condition which they may never recover from, especially with the current economic situation getting worse. People were told things and chose to ignore the advice. There were too many people looking to protect their own little empires.

Many people may look at the equestrian industry, sport and leisure through rose tinted glasses, but reality is that more and more people are turning their backs on horses especially with the rising costs asociated with them. People used to give up everything for their horses, but when there is nothing else to give up, reality kicks in. There is now really only a hardcore of people left and how many of these are 40 somethings?

Lifestyles changed, the enviroment changed, economic situations changed, equestrian didn't.
		
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Agree with you there not only are 200 from my work place have lost their jobs but also my 2 cousins who did work for private companies and my sister who works in a private nursing home.  Three of my family who worked a long time for these private companies.  

Reality hits home when I find out if I have my job next week.


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## The Voice (17 May 2011)

The discussion is about the report and is it another load of hot air that is 10 years to late and a complete waste of money and I am afraid to say it is.

Horses are large animals that live for a very long time and there are also significant welfare issues to be considered (which are already starting to show), if equestrianism collapses.


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## 1stclassalan (17 May 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			I'm not sure I agree with you.  MOST of the people I sell horses to are young professionals, under 40, who have been riding a relatively short time (and therefore looking for nice quality young horses that won't kill them!)
		
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I sort of agree with you and the poster to whom you were replying in that SOME people will still look after their horse whatever comes along whereas it will be the first thing - and I do mean thing - dropped when things get tough.

My own finances have been up and down as many times as Tower Bridge but I always found a way of keeping my horse in the lap of luxury.


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## Tiny Fluffy Coblet (18 May 2011)

6. A single national passport and microchip-issuing agency that would maintain the National Equine Database! (Gee - do we think DEFRA has been waiting for this report to back up its plans in this regard - as it has JUST called another 'consultation' meeting!) Not sure it would help - and it WILL be fiercely resisted by the vast majority of breed societies and other PIO's!
		
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ARGHHHHH seriously they paid someone to work this one out?

I have been saying that passports need to be a standard document issued by one licensed issuer with options to over stamp from the relevant registry to prove registration since passports came out. I also suggested that passports have a URN which is used where-ever the horse is recorded; sales, NED, transport, shows, registration...ect ect.


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## Paddydou (18 May 2011)

I am going to sit here and clap. 

Passports are a load of tripe, more checks should be made when horses are entering this country, the biggest grower of ragwort in our area is the local highways agency and local council. 

Janet we need more of you in this world!


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## unicornleather (19 May 2011)

Yes Janet, we do need more like you!
Oz


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## JanetGeorge (19 May 2011)

Tiny Fluffy Coblet said:



			I have been saying that passports need to be a standard document issued by one licensed issuer with options to over stamp from the relevant registry to prove registration since passports came out.
		
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I think you probably mean since they became law!  And that was less than 10 years ago.  My oldest mare's passport was issued in 1993!!  (and it looks exactly the same as the ones issued now by the Irish Draught Horse Society (GB) and is still in good condition, the mare having had 7 owners since then.

Breed Societies rely on the income from passports to maintain their databases.  While I would agree that we have an unnecessarily large number of PIOs - some of them issuing very cheap, tatty passports that don't last as long as the horse - if Defra manages to FURTHER screw up the passport situation in this country, it will also cause enormous damage to many breed societies!  And it will NOT solve the problems with passports!

The chief problem with passports is regulation - and lack of resources.  No-one checks passports, the Courts give a slap on the wrists to the VERY few cases that come to Court of dealers selling horses without passports, no-one bothers to do change of ownership, and far too many people don't really KNOW about passports!  Unless there is a budget for enforcement AND a public awareness campaign so people DO know more about passports, then anything else is just fiddling while Rome burns!


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## Alec Swan (19 May 2011)

In the unlikely event that we ever view horses,  as livestock,  then I suspect  that defra will have an altered take on the current system,  and we'll then be snowed under with pointless legislation!

Alec.


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## The Voice (19 May 2011)

They said 8 years ago it would be a rolls royce of a system and I told them it would be a tatty old landrover and a complete waste of money!

Who was right?

I work with databases and tried to help them (to cut a very long story short, saying that it should be done the same as DVLA, one issuing office, every horse microchipped, passports overstamped by breed societies and the only way to make it cost effective was to get people to opt into receive marketing information like most companies in the UK do).

They had a deadline from the EU and hadn't got a clue and over complicated things as only governments can do.

We have got two passports 18 yers old when we had the microchipped with drawings AND photo's which are brilliant.

If breed societies rely on income from passports to update databases this is a poor excuse and if they were from a central passport issuing office the information would be more readily available and be more cost effective. If every horse was microchipped scan a horse at a show, put in a number on a laptop and all the info is there and it can be checked that it is the correct horse with all show details on it


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## JanetGeorge (19 May 2011)

The Voice said:



			If breed societies rely on income from passports to update databases this is a poor excuse and if they were from a central passport issuing office the information would be more readily available and be more cost effective. If every horse was microchipped scan a horse at a show, put in a number on a laptop and all the info is there and it can be checked that it is the correct horse with all show details on it
		
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How DO you work that out!  Breed Societies were issuing passports LONG before Defra got involved and of COURSE the income is used to pay staff, maintain the database of pedigrees, check eligibility for different classes of registration, sort out DNA testing, etc. etc. etc.  A breed passport is rather more complicated than those issued purely for ID purposes - particularly when the 'mother' stud book is in another country!

The identification of horses for showing purposes is about THE most trivial use for a centralised database that I can think of!  Government's record with ANYTHING IT based is appalling - over many years.  As is its inability to really understand the problem it is trying to tackle.

I repeat - the problem with passports is NOT the number of PIOs.  It is a failure of legislation, a failure to provide resources for public education, and enforcement, and a failure of the courtsto send out a clear message that people taking the p. with passports is not on!  None of the problems would be solved by having a single PIO - many more problems would be created.


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## Rollin (19 May 2011)

Sorry to disagree with you Janet but the legislation is European.

France has just one PIO linked to a superb database.

One fee is paid when the passport is issued and horses are registered for performance/competition or leisure.  There is no need to pay to join sj or dressage or eventing or this or that stud book or pay for overstamps.  It is cheaper.

There is no charge for registering change of ownership other than an sae

Horses cannot be sold on with passports as happens in the UK.  When a horse is sold the separate ownership document must be signed by both parties and returned to HN.  The passport resides with the keeper and the ownership document with the owner.

Now vets must supply the Dbase or SIRE number when requesting blood tests or other lab tests.

ALL keepers of horses must also register with HN

This provides excellent data for management of infectious diseases.

In addition all coverings, and abortions as well as live foals are registered on the database which gives good fertility data for France as a whole.

My own Uk breed society are often unable to answer or deal with questions/problems and the response I always get is 'we are only volunteers'.  So have an organisation which employs professionals to do the job, not volunteers.

My own breed society is a charity - its charitable status is based on maintaining a stud book and preserving the breed it would appear that on occasion generating passport income and preserving the breed are mutually exclusive objectives.

The first of filly of a category one rare breed born in France, should have been cause for celebration, in fact she finished up on NED as born in the USA...info provided by PIO.

I understand that many of the inaccurate registrations on NED arise from PIO errors.

A more streamlined system would IMO be beneficial.


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## JanetGeorge (19 May 2011)

Rollin said:



			Sorry to disagree with you Janet but the legislation is European.

France has just one PIO linked to a superb database.

One fee is paid when the passport is issued and horses are registered for performance/competition or leisure.  There is no need to pay to join sj or dressage or eventing or this or that stud book or pay for overstamps.  It is cheaper.
		
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The legislation requiring EU member countries to HAVE passports is indeed EU legislation.  The way in which it is implemented (and enforced) is down to the individual Member countries.

To maintain passports for life - through change of ownership, change of address etc etc etc MUST cost more than issuing the passport in the first place.  If there are no extra charges for these services, you can bet that it is subsidised in some way.  That won't happen here - the horse owners WILL pay for every change (particularly as if we end up with a single PIO, it will almost certainly be a profit making one!)




			The first of filly of a category one rare breed born in France, should have been cause for celebration, in fact she finished up on NED as born in the USA...info provided by PIO.

I understand that many of the inaccurate registrations on NED arise from PIO errors.

A more streamlined system would IMO be beneficial.
		
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Some of the smaller breed societies DO struggle when they don't have dedicated staff who KNOW what they are doing - and you're right - NED is not to blame for inaccuracies.  As with any database, Garbage in = garbage out!  And a few of the smaller breed societies have already 'contracted out' their passport operation.


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## Miss L Toe (19 May 2011)

I had a look at this article, and I did have a few raised eyebrows, mostly the concerns above.
In my own opinion the BHS should be taking a much stronger line, for example, they hand out "approved" status to yards which have ragwort on them and do not address loads of other problems, for example is there a standard for good fencing and paddock management? What standards are laid down for stabling, (size, construction , ventilation, natural lighting etc.)
They have guidelines which are not mandatory for their own approved yards, so what is the point? ie preaching to the converted.
They do not correct answers to "exam" questions, the papers are looked at, and a pass is granted or not.
It seems to me that yards are approved annually without inspection.
It appears that standards for housing horses are not universal, ie livery housing or riding school housing, why should they be different.
This is rant, but if the BHS purport to to represent concerned owners should they not be more concerned with horse welfare than horse qualifications.
Most Local Authority staff are not expert in horse management, they would not have enough experience to make a judgement call, and I am surprised they have enough time to go around doing surveys which are pretty judgemental, not based on scientific evidence.
I remember doing a study on cattle drinking, we had to sit up all night at a cattle trough, but what was the point, just make sure water is freely available 24/7, surely that is common sense.


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## keysoe (21 May 2011)

In my opinion the biggest flaw with passports is that there is no location information for the horse.

If you want to do disease surveillance or if not livery yard approval, at least knowledge of where they are then a postcode for horse location would be handy.

Do not want a movement license, but I think if the horse industry owned up to how many small yards there were, then it would be bigger than agriculture as an employer in many areas.

Cannot see that a single central PIO would work in this country, especially not a government one.  If someone can point me to a Government database that has achieved it's initial target and come in under budget, I could change my mind.  But I dont think you will find one


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## JanetGeorge (21 May 2011)

keysoe said:



			If someone can point me to a Government database that has achieved it's initial target and come in under budget, I could change my mind.  But I dont think you will find one
		
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My OH says that if you can identify one Government IT project of ANY sort that has come in on budget, he'll eat his Patey!


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## Alec Swan (21 May 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			My OH says that if you can identify one Government IT project of ANY sort that has come in on budget, he'll eat his Patey!
		
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To paraphrase the wonderful Mandy Rice Davies,  "Well he would say that,  wouldn't he?"  and in the case of your OH,  in the certain knowledge that he's on safe ground!!  

Alec.


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## 1stclassalan (22 May 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			My OH says that if you can identify one Government IT project of ANY sort that has come in on budget, he'll eat his Patey!
		
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Here, here to that. The Goverment keep many departments at arm's length these days so they can say it has nothing to do with them and Air Traffic Control people are an "agency" - they spent millions on a system that didn't work mainly because the guy put in charge of buying it didn't have a clue about computers! When the whole new system crashed on the first day they had to go back to bits of paper and phone calls  - then that guy left. 

The guy that stepped forward to fill his shoes couldn't tell one piece of cable from another but was put in charge of rewiring!

Best not to think about that next time you're on an aeroplane anywhere in Great Britain.


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## The Voice (23 May 2011)

JanetGeorge said:



			How DO you work that out!  Breed Societies were issuing passports LONG before Defra got involved and of COURSE the income is used to pay staff, maintain the database of pedigrees, check eligibility for different classes of registration, sort out DNA testing, etc. etc. etc.  A breed passport is rather more complicated than those issued purely for ID purposes - particularly when the 'mother' stud book is in another country!

The identification of horses for showing purposes is about THE most trivial use for a centralised database that I can think of!  Government's record with ANYTHING IT based is appalling - over many years.  As is its inability to really understand the problem it is trying to tackle.

I repeat - the problem with passports is NOT the number of PIOs.  It is a failure of legislation, a failure to provide resources for public education, and enforcement, and a failure of the courtsto send out a clear message that people taking the p. with passports is not on!  None of the problems would be solved by having a single PIO - many more problems would be created.
		
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If passports had been done correctly in the first place then DEFRA wouldn't have had to get involved. At the time half the societies were still using manual systems.

The problem with the PIO's are they all use different systems so there is a lack of co-ordination and back to empire building.

On the other hand, zangersheide were able to send across a foal inspector, take hair from the mare and foal for DNA purposes, sketch and issue a passport for a very reasonable cost. They have very few admin staff considering they are world wide.

I have never been in showing (although we had a foal that was reserve county champion) and not particular interested in anything now. When I said a horse could be scanned, it could be for an abattoir, vet, check to see if a horse is stolen etc etc and all the information on a single data base, it could be flagged. Controversial, but just like a car tax, horses should be renewed each year for a fee (say £20). But people would complain about that without looking at the bigger picture and that any profit made goes back into industry/welfare.


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## Miss L Toe (23 May 2011)

Ok supposing ten horse at an abattoir were flagged up, who would do what


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## maxie (23 May 2011)

Does anyone have a link to the report or could someone point me in the right direction?
Have been googling but I can't seem to find what you're all talking about!


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## The Voice (23 May 2011)

MrsD123 said:



			Ok supposing ten horse at an abattoir were flagged up, who would do what
		
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Which was one of the main points of having passports and is more than what would happen now. 

The whole point of the thread is a report was done to tell us what we already know and anything now would be too little too late.


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