# Too many who hunt are unfriendly and get hunting a poor social reputation



## Judgemental (11 August 2010)

As promised in a previous thread I was going to have a tirade about people who go out hunting who fundamentally are so stuck up and unfriendly they get hunting generally, a bad name.

The high crowned Patey hat brigade, who think they are so smart that they cannot be bothered to talk to people.

Most of whom when on their feet are reasonably user friendly. 

I once said to such a lady, "you are far too starchy why don't you talk to people". The reply, "my dear they might be a tenant on the estate". I told her straight to her face, "if you don't know all your tenants by name (christian) then you should not be out hunting". Happily she took my comment to heart and is now the life and soul of the party.

Gentlemen are no better, especailly those who work in the City!  

It gets worse of course because too many people once on their horses are incapable of smiling - why for goodness sake - smile at people it is the obvious way of appearing friendly. A smile is worth a thousand words. Oh I know the whole experience is so nervewracking because you are unsuitably mounted. Why, because conceit gets the better and one wants to be seen on a smart horse but one that you cannot handle one side of and you would be better off on a nice old hairy cob!

Then there are those who simply will not lift a hand or acknowledgment to those who slow up in vehicles - I hear, "oh but I can't take a hand off the reins and I must have two hands on the reins". Well tough, learn to ride with one hand and teach your horse to put up with it!

Gates, that's another issue, when somebody on their feet is gracious enough to open a gate, don't just gallop, walk or trot through without thanking them. The number of 'tarts' and 'ponces', yes I shall call them that, who ride through a gateway where the gate has been held opened for them without so much as a word of thanks is astonishing. Alternatively those who are in a line of the field passing through a gateway and cannot say 'gate please' is equally astonishing.

Turning to conduct in the hunting field, too too many people go out and connot be bothered to talk to anybody, except those who they think are their social equals or above, if they think they are going to elevate their so called local position in society.

Ok so this does not apply to the majority but anybody reading this will doubtless, mentally put names to one or two who are members of their hunt.

Remember, SMILE AND THE WORLD SMILES WITH YOU


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## Daisychain (11 August 2010)

Yes and there supposed to be the 'well bred' ones.... ;-)

Lets face it if the genuine toffs had their way, there certainly wouldnt be any working class people out there.... only the ones that know there place anyway.

Its a sign of the times, people have to change, the days of doffing your cap at the gentry have long gone.

Respect is earnt by giving respect.  Whatever class, religion or colour you may happen to be.


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## Countrygirl (11 August 2010)

Definately not all the same!!!!!!
I am one of the lucky ones who can go out twice a week and have had the fortune to go out with a lot of different packs. Unluckily I have been out on my feet for the past 3 seasons but I can honestly say hand on heart where I am now you get thanked by everyone when doing road crossings, loose horses, broken tack, loading up etc. They are a really friendly bunch who make everyone welcome and yes they are part of the Patey brigade! New people are always made welcome by both the masters and the field and looked after too.
Now I can appreciate that not every pack is like this and on one occasion at a joint meet last year I noticed the enormous difference between neighbouring packs.
I do understand where you are coming from to a certain extent as previous places have been very different, usually it comes from inter hunt politics. The other thing is  - which I cannot really put into words - is social standing, they think that once they are in a mastership or on a commitee they are above everyone and untouchable.
I admit my experiences do not come from the larger packs, but they do come from a spectrum across the country and the 20 plus packs I have had the privilage to go out with.


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## Simsar (11 August 2010)

Its all about the hunt not the people they all differ from pack to pack some friendly some not if people think their **** don't ........... then avoid them or change hunt.  Your there to do a job not have a jolly, as in another post last season.  But that's another story. In the previous post I put: 

NO breeding! Its in my blood and I was born in the East end, so common as muck. But I wear a Patey I bought it with my nan's inheritance!


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## Judgemental (11 August 2010)

Countrygirl said:



			Definately not all the same!!!!!!
I am one of the lucky ones who can go out twice a week and have had the fortune to go out with a lot of different packs. Unluckily I have been out on my feet for the past 3 seasons but I can honestly say hand on heart where I am now you get thanked by everyone when doing road crossings, loose horses, broken tack, loading up etc. They are a really friendly bunch who make everyone welcome and yes they are part of the Patey brigade! New people are always made welcome by both the masters and the field and looked after too.
Now I can appreciate that not every pack is like this and on one occasion at a joint meet last year I noticed the enormous difference between neighbouring packs.
I do understand where you are coming from to a certain extent as previous places have been very different, usually it comes from inter hunt politics. The other thing is  - which I cannot really put into words - is social standing, they think that once they are in a mastership or on a commitee they are above everyone and untouchable.
I admit my experiences do not come from the larger packs, but they do come from a spectrum across the country and the 20 plus packs I have had the privilage to go out with.
		
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As I said at the end of my originating post

"Ok so this does not apply to the majority but anybody reading this will doubtless, mentally put names to one or two who are members of their hunt".

Unfortunately it is that minority that generate the antipathy.

Oh yes, masters, secretaries, the committee and their siblings. They need addressing (down) in this thread. Once elevated there is a definite air of superiority, largely because too many people are so deferential.


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## JenHunt (11 August 2010)

i see what you mean, but i think it varies so much from hunt to hunt. Ours is reknowned as one of the friendliest hunts around, everyone made to feel welcome and gate openers/shutters thanked etc.

but one or two of our neighbouring packs have dreadful reputations for not making visitors welcome, and in one case totally ignoring them except to collect a rather steep visitors cap!


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## Judgemental (11 August 2010)

jenhunt said:



			i see what you mean, but i think it varies so much from hunt to hunt. Ours is reknowned as one of the friendliest hunts around, everyone made to feel welcome and gate openers/shutters thanked etc.

but one or two of our neighbouring packs have dreadful reputations for not making visitors welcome, and in one case totally ignoring them except to collect a rather steep visitors cap!
		
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I know it is very variable and it is that last paragraph of your post that is all too apparant, but hopefully a goodly number of folk will read this thread for the coming season and take the sentiment to heart.

Hunting is at an important watershed and image and presentation are everything in this world.

By the way, I own two Patey Hats and they are excellent kit.


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## Kaylum (11 August 2010)

Well I see your point of view Judgemental but I also see another point of view where this behaviour happens in all situations in life.  At work for example.  You hold the door open for someone and guess what they ignore you and dont even notice you have taken the effort to hold the door open.  I am just like ok so what miserable person alert.  

We had one girl at work who would not interact with anyone but management.  She was so stuck up, so she never got invited out with us lot and we had some wild nights out and in fact ended up having no friends at work whatsoever.   Her fault.  

It happens everywhere.


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## Judgemental (11 August 2010)

Kaylum said:



			Well I see your point of view Judgemental but I also see another point of view where this behaviour happens in all situations in life.  At work for example.  You hold the door open for someone and guess what they ignore you and dont even notice you have taken the effort to hold the door open.  I am just like ok so what miserable person alert.  

We had one girl at work who would not interact with anyone but management.  She was so stuck up, so she never got invited out with us lot and we had some wild nights out and in fact ended up having no friends at work whatsoever.   Her fault.  

It happens everywhere.
		
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Yes but this is to a great extent a social event happening in a public place, where members of the public (also in their vehicles) who are not part of the hunt will be encountered. Farmers over whose land the hunt is conducted coupled to farm workers are an issue not to mention all those who hunt.

The courtesy to absolutely everybody out hunting is paramount, no matter who or what they are, their so called social station, how much money they have, what they own it is all neither here nor there.

Everybody should be greeted in a genuinely friendly manner and everybody should be spoken to and in my world anybody who is spoken to and is too stuck up to respond should be sent home!


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## Paddydou (11 August 2010)

I haven't been hunting, a lack of time would not allow me to. However I have had the pleasure of meeting many hunting folk and a friendlier bunch you really couldn't find. I have been invited on several occasions which sadly I have had to turn down.

I was (once upon a time) very anti, foxes do look cute. It was through discussions with hunting folk and watching events/ natures behaviour that changed my mind. The worst and by far more dangerous behaviour has come from the anti's. I saw this long before it became big news and those are sights that I will never forget.

I do know lots of people who have had very unsavory encounters with hunting folk. Being "bloodied" was remembered by one woman who is nearly 90after over 80 years as a particularly traumatic event and turned her "anti" ever since. 

It is not just hunting that suffers the equestrian snob. However as it is an emotive subject. Personally I would love to see some form of regulation or "spot checking" and the Hunting act repealed. This way some of the more unsavoury acts can become historical and the hunts can continue to do their good work. 

Anyone who owns a horse will tell you that at some point there is someone who thinks that they are a snob because of their hobby. All forms of equestrian sport are still seen as very "elite" and not open to the general public. I would love to see more being put into the cities and towns to change this attitude.

I agree that anyone who is rude while out hunting should be sent home.


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## Kaylum (11 August 2010)

and I was talking about a work place where everyone should be treated with respect, so back to my point it happens in all situations. Its a people thing.


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## Simsar (11 August 2010)

Kaylum said:



			and I was talking about a work place where everyone should be treated with respect, so back to my point it happens in all situations. Its a people thing.
		
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Well said.


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## rosie fronfelen (11 August 2010)

in our area, which is so blessed with tradition, and doffing  of caps still is a common occurance-we have no committee so no in-fighting,no hunt cards so they dont get in the "wrong hands",everything is by word of mouth, so we meet and go- every day is an adventure and our followers( of which there are many) are a delight and colourful- as i say,we are so blessed.


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## Simsar (11 August 2010)

Paddyd you hit the nail on the head hunting folk are fantastic, its all the others, the ones that don't know or think they do, hope this makes sense.

I am lucky enough to work with some major A list celeb's and some of them are right W******!  But the majority are fantastic.  If you have had to work for it normally people turn out alright but if you given in your more than likely a ****.  But why can't everyone just realise manners don't cost.


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## Judgemental (11 August 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			in our area, which is so blessed with tradition, and doffing  of caps still is a common occurance-we have no committee so no in-fighting,no hunt cards so they dont get in the "wrong hands",everything is by word of mouth, so we meet and go- every day is an adventure and our followers( of which there are many) are a delight and colourful- as i say,we are so blessed.
		
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Clearly I shall have to visit as this sounds like paradise.


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## Simsar (11 August 2010)

JM clearly you don't want to talk to me which is fine I did tell you on the previous post to get back in your hole but by ignoring me surely you can do that to all the toffs or whatever you want to call them.  I know I know you won't reply.  But your post are a bit    you know wanting a reaction which makes me think that your not so easy to get along with either.


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## Simsar (11 August 2010)

Wish I was a good with words LOL!


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## rosie fronfelen (11 August 2010)

Simsar, JM and i got off on the wrong foot(quite easy for me!!)but i think he is very much"old school" and bit of a softee-which is your hunt, Surrey Union, or is it affiliated with another pack, i cant keep up with all the changes,unless i have my head in the hunting bible!!


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## Simsar (11 August 2010)

Yes Surrey Union ( will pm you ). I totally agree with old school like I said you are there to do a job not have a jolly etc.  I would love hunting to be back like in the times of my pictures but it won't and life goes on.


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## Simsar (11 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			As promised in a previous thread I was going to have a tirade about people who go out hunting who fundamentally are so stuck up and unfriendly that includes some masters I'm afraid they get hunting generally, a bad name.

The high crowned Patey hat brigade, who think they are so smart that they cannot be bothered to talk to people again that includes masters.

Most of whom when on their feet are reasonably user friendly. 

I once said to such a lady, "you are far too starchy why don't you talk to people". The reply, "my dear they might be a tenant on the estate". I told her straight to her face, "if you don't know all your tenants by name (christian) then you should not be out hunting". Happily she took my comment to heart and is now the life and soul of the party.  

Gentlemen are no better, especailly those who work in the City!  Glad you put about the men too!  

It gets worse of course because too many people once on their horses are incapable of smiling - why for goodness sake - smile at people it is the obvious way of appearing friendly oh masters again. A smile is worth a thousand words. Oh I know the whole experience is so nervewracking because you are unsuitably mounted. Why, because conceit gets the better and one wants to be seen on a smart horse but one that you cannot handle one side of and you would be better off on a nice old hairy cob!  How true!

Then there are those who simply will not lift a hand or acknowledgment to those who slow up in vehicles - I hear, "oh but I can't take a hand off the reins and I must have two hands on the reins". Well tough, learn to ride with one hand and teach your horse to put up with it!

Gates, that's another issue, when somebody on their feet is gracious enough to open a gate, don't just gallop, walk or trot through without thanking them. The number of 'tarts' and 'ponces', yes I shall call them that, who ride through a gateway where the gate has been held opened for them without so much as a word of thanks is astonishing that goes on alot more than you think. Alternatively those who are in a line of the field passing through a gateway and cannot say 'gate please' is equally astonishing because they haven't been taught.  They all go on about our hunt does an etiquette day/eve but they go to the pub and forget half

Turning to conduct in the hunting field, too too many people go out and connot be bothered to talk to anybody, except those who they think are their social equals or above try living in Surrey, if they think they are going to elevate their so called local position in society.

Ok so this does not apply to the majority but anybody reading this will doubtless, mentally put names to one or two who are members of their hunt.

Remember, SMILE AND THE WORLD SMILES WITH YOU 

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Get some badges printed.


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## Maesfen (11 August 2010)

Ooh, lots to respond to so here goes -


Kaylum said:



			Well I see your point of view Judgemental but I also see another point of view where this behaviour happens in all situations in life.  At work for example.  You hold the door open for someone and guess what they ignore you and dont even notice you have taken the effort to hold the door open.  I am just like ok so what miserable person alert.
		
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A friend (male) was working in New York.  Walking through an office block with two others, a girl came towards him up to the brim with folders and was trying to get through a door.  The other 2 men just stood there but being English, he leapt to open the door for her.  She glared at him and stalked through, the men were ashen faced.  "FGS don't do that again, she'll have you for sexual harassment." to which he replied, "I'm English, we know our manners and one of those is always to open doors for any lady whether she likes it or not."  The men seriously thought he'd be charged, I find that very sad.



Judgemental said:



			Yes but this is to a great extent a social event happening in a public place, where members of the public (also in their vehicles) who are not part of the hunt will be encountered. Farmers over whose land the hunt is conducted coupled to farm workers are an issue not to mention all those who hunt.

The courtesy to absolutely everybody out hunting is paramount, no matter who or what they are, their so called social station, how much money they have, what they own it is all neither here nor there.

Everybody should be greeted in a genuinely friendly manner and everybody should be spoken to and in my world anybody who is spoken to and is too stuck up to respond should be sent home!
		
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Couldn't agree more with you J.  Manners are an absolute must from and towards anyone, anywhere in my book - but particularly out hunting if you don't want to be banned from any land; it's too easy to lose access by bad behaviour.



Simsar said:



			Paddyd you hit the nail on the head hunting folk are fantastic, its all the others, the ones that don't know or think they do, hope this makes sense.

I am lucky enough to work with some major A list celeb's and some of them are right W******!  But the majority are fantastic.  If you have had to work for it normally people turn out alright but if you given in your more than likely a ****.  But why can't everyone just realise manners don't cost.
		
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For once, I do have to take issue with you there.  For us, around here, old money/titles are by far better mannered and friendly than the new rich, without a shadow of a doubt; they're also far better payers too!  New money always seem to think you owe them and have a chip on their shoulder, we know which we prefer - and that's not being snobby at all, just how we find them.


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## Simsar (11 August 2010)

North south that's my last word.x


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## Judgemental (11 August 2010)

I have yet to really stir the pot - yet you say!

Less than 20,000 people in the UK own the majority of farmed land/estates - I have no doubt somebody will correct me with the exact figure, please do.

Nevertheless, 20,000 give or take out of a population of 60 million.

But it is that 20,000 and I suppose the 6/7000 who are owners of land with tenants that have hunts regularly traversing their property.

There is one of the most interesting pieces of social 'intercourse' the thinly and barely concealed "well if you don't bow you head, be thoroughly subservient and a proper sycophantic toady, where I encounter you, then I might not welcome you on my land".


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## Judgemental (11 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			JM clearly you don't want to talk to me which is fine I did tell you on the previous post to get back in your hole but by ignoring me surely you can do that to all the toffs or whatever you want to call them.  I know I know you won't reply.  But your post are a bit    you know wanting a reaction which makes me think that your not so easy to get along with either.
		
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Hum sorry missed this, not quite sure if I understand it but Toffs is not a word I would use. Oh I am mild as milk very easy to get along with, very easy!


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## Judgemental (11 August 2010)

Maesfen said:



			Ooh, lots to respond to so here goes -


A friend (male) was working in New York.  Walking through an office block with two others, a girl came towards him up to the brim with folders and was trying to get through a door.  The other 2 men just stood there but being English, he leapt to open the door for her.  She glared at him and stalked through, the men were ashen faced.  "FGS don't do that again, she'll have you for sexual harassment." to which he replied, "I'm English, we know our manners and one of those is always to open doors for any lady whether she likes it or not."  The men seriously thought he'd be charged, I find that very sad.

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New York indeed - the cosmopolitan atmosphere of this thread is very rewarding.

Sexual harrassment out hunting, now that is a whole new ball game. 

Now that could generate a few acres, nay hectares of forum.


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## Judgemental (11 August 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			Simsar, JM and i got off on the wrong foot(quite easy for me!!)but i think he is very much"old school" and bit of a softee-which is your hunt, Surrey Union, or is it affiliated with another pack, i cant keep up with all the changes,unless i have my head in the hunting bible!!
		
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Oh Rosie, soft as butter and very pliable - old school can be, well I know what it's all about, that must be fairly evident.

However I can have moments of wondering where it's going.Taking into account the Act and the cost of hunting.

But to be really serious, if all the hunts stamp out so called unfriendly behaviour, then that's half the battle and folk will put their hands in their pockets. The support will be forthcoming and the Act well hopefully it will simply fizzile out?

In the final analysis it is up to the Masters to be jolly team leaders and have an endless store of wit and charm -


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## Paddydou (11 August 2010)

You do know that the vast majority of the problem is caused by negative effect. Human tend to remember negative far more than positive so if 1 horse rider is rude to a driver on the road it will take at least 10 positive encounters to put that negative into perspective. 

Place this with equines being seen as elitist, the view that the "garb" that the hunts dress up in is expensive in the shops and rather dashing looking (dispite the fact that most probably have moth balls still stuffed in the pockets from their great grandfathers day) its projecting an "image" that isn't in actual fact "reality". 

The reality of it is that North or South of what ever boarder you choose the vast majority of hunting folk are fantastic, they are generous, they are enthusiastic about looking after and conserving the countryside for future generations amongst other things, they are animal lovers and despise forms of animal crewlty (sp apologies), they are energetic, they are polite, mischivious and happy people. Stick 'em all in a pub and the bar will be dry with fantastci stories to be heard and a wonderful evening to be had by all. But it only takes one to ruin this.

The image of it all is that "posh" people with loads of "dosh" ride "nags" to show off and they all presume that they are better than everyone else because they have smart dress codes and don't loaf about in trackky B's (in public!). Take a non horsey person from the middle of a city and stick them in the middle of a group of huntsmen and they will have no idea what on earth is going on, they will feel intimidated and thus fearful and angry. That is the basis on the "animal lovers" stance. They use this to their advantage all the time.

Google "hunting" and I imagine that all the greenies have got in there first and you will find a whole load of carefully slowed down videos showing animals being ripped apart time after time after time, you will see non of the positive just ghastly sceenes all the time carefully patched together to make the strongest mans stomach turn. They have the upper hand because of this and the Hunting community needs to speed up in projecting a positive imagery of them selves. Not as "Toffs" in red coats with a hunting crop but as human beings working to preserve their local area (and have a good time in the process).

"Kill them with kindness" - thats what the hunting community needs to be doing if it wants to get back to where it should be. If you can't take your hand off of the rein what is wrong with shouting thank you and brandishing your teeth in a big grin? Hunting communities need to stop being afraid of their adversary and instead look to educate and include them. Horses should not be "elitist" and more should be done by all of us to get children of all ages involved and learning (catch em while they are young and the war is already won). Show people that you are nice!

This is Britian (from where I am typing anyway), we should stand up and be proud of ourselves for being who we are instead of copying the americans all the time and apologising over a cup of tea! Bring back the pride and the louts will slowly disapate.

I am digressing all over the place so I am going now...!


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## rosie fronfelen (11 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Oh Rosie, soft as butter and very pliable - old school can be, well I know what it's all about, that must be fairly evident.

However I can have moments of wondering where it's going.Taking into account the Act and the cost of hunting.

But to be really serious, if all the hunts stamp out so called unfriendly behaviour, then that's half the battle and folk will put their hands in their pockets. The support will be forthcoming and the Act well hopefully it will simply fizzile out?

In the final analysis it is up to the Masters to be jolly team leaders and have an endless store of wit and charm -
		
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this isn't going to happen, unfortunately.the bulk of the hunts will carry on as usual- such is the attitude of the human being-hunting to the toffs is just a bye product,and if you dont stump up with your subs then byebye!!what part of the country do you hunt-have you worked out mine yet?


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## JenHunt (11 August 2010)

Kaylum said:



			and I was talking about a work place where everyone should be treated with respect, so back to my point it happens in all situations. Its a people thing.
		
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I know what you mean Kaylum, but it doesn't narrow it down... everyone should be treated with respect all the time, where ever they are, who ever they are.

I'm fortunate to work somewhere that has such a culture of respect that management hold doors open for the "lowliest" worker and one thanks the other for doing so. Equally the management make a point of thanking staff for their work. 

I think you're mostly right tho, it is a people thing.


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## JenHunt (11 August 2010)

Paddydou said:



			The reality of it is that North or South of what ever boarder you choose the vast majority of hunting folk are fantastic, they are generous, they are enthusiastic about looking after and conserving the countryside for future generations amongst other things, they are animal lovers and despise forms of animal crewlty (sp apologies), they are energetic, they are polite, mischivious and happy people. Stick 'em all in a pub and the bar will be dry with fantastci stories to be heard and a wonderful evening to be had by all. But it only takes one to ruin this.
		
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hear hear.... *applauds that...errr...person* well said.



Paddydou said:



			If you can't take your hand off of the rein what is wrong with shouting thank you and brandishing your teeth in a big grin?
		
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careful who you shout and grin at... they may assume you're shouting abuse and showing your best menacing toothy grimace!


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## Saucisson (11 August 2010)

I had the unpleasant experience of working for a very well known Leicestershire hunt and found the majority who worked there to be really quite poor specimens of the human race.  Funnily enough the guys looking after the hounds were ok though.

If they weren't real knuckle dragging country bumpkins who could barely string a sentence together (I cooked a stir fry in a wok one night and was told you cook like a w*g  - yeah woks, their way out exotic aren't they, oh and nice racist word that I haven't heard for 20 years thanks), they were ridiculous toffs living in a little pre-first world war bubble.  

The master would come to see the horses in the morning as they were being groomed, he'd say good morning and then the horse's name and not even acknowledge my existence  silly old fart.

They also told me that they would generally loose one or two horses every season to broken legs and it was accepted that this was often due to poor riders.  It was considered to be an acceptable loss as, hey, who cares if you can't ride as long as you can pay. 

I wasn't anti-hunting before I worked there but I sure was after  put me right off.


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## Orangehorse (11 August 2010)

Most hunt supporters are Ok WHEN THEY KNOW WHO YOU ARE, but they can either be very shy, which is seen as stand-offish by strangers or sometimes they just don't know if you are worth talking to so they don't bother.

I am often completely ignored, until someone else introduces me as a farmer/landowner and then they can be very pleasant and friendly. 

I have some friends who were tenants on an estate and they used to deeply resent the local hunt crossing their land, of course they had no say in the matter at all as the landlord owned the sporting rights.  They still have a hatred of horses and riders.  Unless riders go out of their way to be pleasant to EVERYONE they are assumed to be stuck up (in the air - which we are of course) and looking down on everyone.

It is important to be polite.  That scruffy little old man holding the gate could well own the surrounding 1,000 acres.  It is a lot easier to say "no you can't come" rather than yes you can.


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## Judgemental (11 August 2010)

ORANGEHORSE said:



			It is important to be polite.  That scruffy little old man holding the gate could well own the surrounding 1,000 acres.  It is a lot easier to say "no you can't come" rather than yes you can.
		
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Are you all sitting comfortably because I am going to tell you a story - a true story.

Once upon a time deep in *The Blackmore Vale and hounds were running very fast.

An immaculate gentleman in pink coat and topper - yes, topper in the vale, really - was standing viewing the proceedings and observed two very smart and most attractive ladies struggling with a gate.

Standing on the ground beside him was a farmer - wellies covered in cow ****, old coat done up with binder twine, had'nt shaved for a few days and  a cap that looked as if he was going to breed from it.

The gentleman looked down at the farmer and said, "I say my good man, I don't suppose you would be very kind and go and help those ladies struggling with that gate".

Clearly from the farmers body language he was not too keen on the idea.

The gentleman said, "look be a sport and help them, in normal circumstances I would, but you see one is my wife and the other is my mistress".

The farmer looked up at the gentleman and said with a broad Dorset burr, "ah it be a small world ben-it, sur".

Things are far more involved than just ownership and tenancy of land!


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## Paddydou (11 August 2010)

Saucisson said:



			I wasn't anti-hunting before I worked there but I sure was after  put me right off. 

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Thats the problem though... When I was freelance grooming back in the days before gravity and old age had taken its tol. I worked for a very well to do family, recently been in the paper for a little bit of misfortune... Serves them right. They were vile. They occasionally hunted but not often more happy hackers but oh my word, they were vile.

I am not going to judge an entire industry on one set of people. After leaving them I had lots of other job offers and all were wonderful people! I didn't ever have to feed myself as the various yards I worked on would supply breakfast, lunch and supper while I was on my rounds. I didn't ask for it but was dragged in anyway! Such wonderful friendly people. vast majority were hunting folk who had a few horses here and there that needed to be kept fit, schooled and mucked out. Still in contact with many of them. The larger yards I worked on were ok but then the "keeping up with the Jones'" mentality started to kick in as everyone competed to out do the other liveries.

This is one hunt and not actually the entireity of one hunt just a few who are at the helm. So sad that they have put you off. Please don't tar us all with the same brush as some of us like to shout thank yous through car windows, pet small children and smile like fools!

I now must dash as I have to go tell Judgementals joke to several people!


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## D66 (11 August 2010)

We were told at Pony Club 35yrs ago that if we ever got into an argument whilst riding that we should dismount. Simply being on a horse makes you look superior and can make people feel threatened and more angry.
I do think that if hunts toned down the fancy dress for a few years, and maybe wore bright plastic tack and track suit style uniforms, some of the anger from the general public might dissipate.  Hunting people do seem very removed from, "the man in the queue at Tescos", even if they shop there as well.


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## rosie fronfelen (11 August 2010)

digger66 said:



			We were told at Pony Club 35yrs ago that if we ever got into an argument whilst riding that we should dismount. Simply being on a horse makes you look superior and can make people feel threatened and more angry.
I do think that if hunts toned down the fancy dress for a few years, and maybe wore bright plastic tack and track suit style uniforms, some of the anger from the general public might dissipate.  Hunting people do seem very removed from, "the man in the queue at Tescos", even if they shop there as well.
		
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you are joking i assume??!!


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## Judgemental (11 August 2010)

digger66 said:



			We were told at Pony Club 35yrs ago that if we ever got into an argument whilst riding that we should dismount. Simply being on a horse makes you look superior and can make people feel threatened and more angry.
I do think that if hunts toned down the fancy dress for a few years, and maybe wore bright plastic tack and track suit style uniforms, some of the anger from the general public might dissipate.  Hunting people do seem very removed from, "the man in the queue at Tescos", even if they shop there as well.
		
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"Bright Plastic Tack and Track Suit Uniforms"

Everybody is entitled to their opinion but I fear that one might be on the bench with the unplayables.

Now folks, things are drifting somewhat. Becasue I started this thread with an 'in house' view of things, i.e. how we feel about each other and I suppose how much money we fork out and want to be made welcome. Yes I had the driving public in mind but that was secondary - for the moment.

The thread is a discussion about hunts making people welcome who are particpants.


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## Saucisson (11 August 2010)

Paddydou said:



			This is one hunt and not actually the entireity of one hunt just a few who are at the helm. So sad that they have put you off. Please don't tar us all with the same brush as some of us like to shout thank yous through car windows, pet small children and smile like fools!
		
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You are quite correct, it is a shame but worry not, I have known some super people that hunt and do think hunting is very good for horses and equestrian sport generally - I won't be waving any placards around at any time soon.


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## Judgemental (11 August 2010)

Saucisson said:



			You are quite correct, it is a shame but worry not, I have known some super people that hunt and do think hunting is very good for horses and equestrian sport generally - I won't be waving any placards around at any time soon. 

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Perhaps this forum and very thread may do some good.

I see there have been well over 500 views and I only started it this morning, now 22:12. Actually 574 at 22:22 

On the basis that for every view another two or three hear about the thread that possibly - I stress possbily 1500 hunting people who will start thinking.

Maybe with contemporary technology some of the past wrongs and existing issues are considered, especially by CHAIRMAN, MASTERS, SECRETARIES, HUNTSMEN AND WOMEN, AND THE COMMITTEE, who start issuing a few edicts on the subject of being friendly. Even dare I suggest having 'satisfaction' questions drawn up. Ok, so you all laughted but as I have been told fairly robustly elsewhere on this site, HUNTING IS A BUSINESS - well then lets have some customer satisfaction protocols.

What folk do not realise that with this forum they could start naming names and hunts.

Do I hear the moderator blowing home or gone to ground on that idea?


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## marmalade76 (12 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Ok, so you all laughted but as I have been told fairly robustly elsewhere on this site, HUNTING IS A BUSINESS - well then lets have some customer satisfaction protocols.
		
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Now that is an excellent idea! My most local hunt does not give good value for money at all (on a week day anyway) so I will be giving another a go this season (hopefully!) I used to go Bloodhounding regularly (no longer have the nerve for it nor the time to get my horse fit enough!), everybody was lovely and welcoming and you were treated like a paying customer, which is, afterall, what we are.

Yes, there are some very snooty beggars out hunting, and not all of them 'new money' either. Once I saw a woman I had been chatting to out hunting visably recoil in disgust when I told her what I did for a living at the time (and no, I was not a prostitute, just a dogsbody at a hairdressers!) 

I would not like to see the dress code dumbed down, it is one of the aspects of hunting that I love.


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## Hels_Bells (12 August 2010)

Jenhunt - would love to know which hunts you were thinking of in your first post - you are near my area, though I have an inkling which ones you may mean.  

Interesting post - In my area we have one hunt that hunts on my family's land but ever since being a child we have usually gone a little further afield and off our patch to another hunt which is much smaller, friendlier and more down to earth largely due to it being friendlier. 

When I moved back home from London a couple of years ago my hubby and I went to our local landowner-members hunt bbq (for the hunt I don't hunt with).  Most of the people there were friendly enough, and it was nice to see a few familiar faces from pony club days etc, but a friend introduced us to the master at one point and he could not have been more unfriendly.  Maybe it was just him, (or just us he didn't like!??? ) but great figurehead for the hunt eh??  Thankfully he has moved on now and someone else who seems much nicer has taken over, so maybe I'll give them a go a couple of times when it's convenient this season and see how things go.   I haven't hunted with them since I was a teenager (it was a good days hunting but was glad I had my sister to talk to). I wonder if things will have changed much... 

Overall, I agree that there are some unfriendly people out hunting and they need to buck their ideas up.  It's a great shame that these few can spoil a day's hunting and spoil the overall view of the hunting community.  But there are also some fab people too and I guess we can't apply personality testing to hunt membership to keep the grumpy ones out!!!!   But I think if Masters set the tone then the field will follow to some extent!!


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## Paddydou (12 August 2010)

Saucisson said:



			You are quite correct, it is a shame but worry not, I have known some super people that hunt and do think hunting is very good for horses and equestrian sport generally - I won't be waving any placards around at any time soon. 

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Well as long as they are keep Hunting placards you are more than welcome! In fact I shall join you! 

But please leave any pink plastic tack you may be tempted into by digger66 at home. Such things are for the likes of Katie Price and bless, she has had so much "work" done to her I doubt that much left is actually real! There is being empathetic and looking darned silly! I imagine it would put the ladies off if they had to watch the masters ride in front with their breeches worn below the waist as seems to be the fashion these days with jeans! Perhaps a more tasteful dress code... back to the red coats but with smile badges and peace signs on them perhaps!!! 

Hunting is indeed a business with many priorities.


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## Scoutie (12 August 2010)

It has already been said but hunting is a reflection of modern day life, you get all the personality issues described in the work place as well as on the hunting field.  I am friendly to everyone having learnt many years ago that everyone is equal and should be treated with the same respect however if someone is rude to me I simply ignore them, after all this is their problem not mine.  Having said this I have only met lovely people out hunting, everyone has been welcoming and supportive.

I saw the comments about Surrey, I was brought up in Surrey and had to move back there for two years a number of years ago so know it relatively well. Many of the comments I think are reflective of the area rather than directed to hunting.  Whilst I had a wonderful childhood it wasn't until I moved to London I realised how unfriendly and snobby the area I grew up in was, this feeling was confirmed when I moved back.  There were some lovely people but there were also a large number that wouldn't or couldn't be friendly.


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## JenHunt (12 August 2010)

Hels_Bells said:



			Jenhunt - would love to know which hunts you were thinking of in your first post - you are near my area, though I have an inkling which ones you may mean.
		
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i'll PM you! 
I got an earful from someone (who i notice hasn't posted since) about airing dirty laundry on forums!


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## EAST KENT (12 August 2010)

Ah ..but it is great fun to watch these snotty nosed people..esp. if ,having been around a long long  time,you know exactly their origens!! Laughable.


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## oakash (12 August 2010)

Might I suggest that if you belong to a golf club, you will find some people you consider to be pains in the bottom, and if you belong to a badminton club,ditto..and so on. Hunting reflects society in general. It is only the anti-hunters who haven't yet realised that all sorts of people go out hunting!


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## Luci07 (12 August 2010)

Crikey - interesting post..I only have experience of visiting with the Surrey Union and have dipped in and out over quite a few years! I fully intend to try to get out this season if I can pin my friend down to look out for me!. However, over a period of some 20 years, and not ever being a regular, I have only been met by politeness, and definately no toffs. In fact, one of my most endearing equine memories has to be dismounting when the hounds were working.. (no prizes for guessing why!). My friend and I disappeared discreetly - I helped her get back on and then was stuck with a very OTT horse. When the rest of the hunt joined us, I was given such a grand leg up I went up and over. See, not all stuffy people out hunting!


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## Ditchjumper2 (12 August 2010)

[QUOTE Ok, so you all laughted but as I have been told fairly robustly elsewhere on this site, HUNTING IS A BUSINESS - well then lets have some customer satisfaction protocols.

What folk do not realise that with this forum they could start naming names and hunts.

Do I hear the moderator blowing home or gone to ground on that idea?[/QUOTE]

It's funny you should say that! I have said several times in our hunt that for  the amount of money we pay we are in effect "customers" paying for an entertainment service.  This perhaps should be borne in mind by some...it is our money that pay the wages, running costs etc etc


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## JanetGeorge (12 August 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			you are joking i assume??!!
		
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Not at all. Back in the '90s - when hunting was under threat -I was local PRO for hunts from Shropshire to Leicestershire; Herefordshire to Wiltshire!  We DRILLED into Masters' heads (and with some you had to drill deep to find a teensy brain!) that if there was ANY confrontation (or if a tv camera was looming) they should get OFF their horses!

The problem with being on a 16.2 hunter is that you are 'looking down' on people!  Even the most down to earth person will appear to be 'looking down their nose' when they are on a horse!

MOST Masters at that time didn't know PR from a hole in the ground (which was where I wished they'd bury themselves most of the time!)  There were a few notable exceptions - one I recall had an embarrassing incident when hounds ran through a housing estate! (terrorising small children,da-de-da!) It was a PR disaster in the making but said Master jumped off his horse and dumped it, and his red coat and hat on a supporter, pulled off his stock and rolled up his sleeves and went knocking on doors - not JUST to say sorry but to invite anyone he could find to come to the kennels the next day!  DOZENS turned up - sherry and sandwiches for Mums and Dads, icecreams and hound cuddling for the kids.  The local paper had to replace its PLANNED headline with one that said: "Hunt says sorry in style" - with pics of happy kids and hounds!  I honestly believe that if Masters like him had made up 70% of MFH's (instead of about 1%!) hunting would not have been banned!

It was years of snooty hunt followers, blocked roads, hunts riding roughshod over land they were NOT meant to be on, gates left open etc etc etc that made it SO easy for the antis!


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## Judgemental (13 August 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			Not at all. Back in the '90s - when hunting was under threat -I was local PRO for hunts from Shropshire to Leicestershire; Herefordshire to Wiltshire!  We DRILLED into Masters' heads (and with some you had to drill deep to find a teensy brain!) that if there was ANY confrontation (or if a tv camera was looming) they should get OFF their horses!

The problem with being on a 16.2 hunter is that you are 'looking down' on people!  Even the most down to earth person will appear to be 'looking down their nose' when they are on a horse!

MOST Masters at that time didn't know PR from a hole in the ground (which was where I wished they'd bury themselves most of the time!)  There were a few notable exceptions - one I recall had an embarrassing incident when hounds ran through a housing estate! (terrorising small children,da-de-da!) It was a PR disaster in the making but said Master jumped off his horse and dumped it, and his red coat and hat on a supporter, pulled off his stock and rolled up his sleeves and went knocking on doors - not JUST to say sorry but to invite anyone he could find to come to the kennels the next day!  DOZENS turned up - sherry and sandwiches for Mums and Dads, icecreams and hound cuddling for the kids.  The local paper had to replace its PLANNED headline with one that said: "Hunt says sorry in style" - with pics of happy kids and hounds!  I honestly believe that if Masters like him had made up 70% of MFH's (instead of about 1%!) hunting would not have been banned!

It was years of snooty hunt followers, blocked roads, hunts riding roughshod over land they were NOT meant to be on, gates left open etc etc etc that made it SO easy for the antis!
		
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When somebody as well known, knowledgeable and erudite as Janet George comments, you know that a serious issue has been raised.

So lets be constructive, bearing in mind on page 2 of Shocked being charged for Mounted Exercise, I was 'whipped' into line by Harper_gal, Jenhunt, Simsar and Baggybreeches to name but a few and there were others who all said hunting was business.

That was clearly the view of the majority and I am happy to go along with that view, indeed there was a certain metod to my madness to extrapolate the real purpose of matters, bearing in mind I started this thread.

So what do all the hunts do about being MORE USER FRIENDLY.

I think it is fair to say from this thread that the majority feel it is the Masters duty of care to see that everybody is friendly and welcoming. He or she should drum that into all his staff, committee and secretaries. In every business, success or failure starts at the top and percolates downwards.

Now remember were you first heard the following. 

As part of the committee there should be a sub-committee of WELCOMERS whose duty it is, to talk to people whose faces are unfamiliar and who may come out on their own etc.

But this is the best bit, as hunting is a business, then everybody should wear a name tag - yes a name TAG!

Oh don't be ridiculious you are shouting at your computer screen. How does somebody wear a name tag on a horse.

Simple, assuming it is a black or navy coat or any coat including tweed, a matching strip of Velcro the same size as that used by the military for all military uniforms is sewn into the jacket, with the Velcro on the out-side.

Then the hunt has a run of names (sold to aid hunt funds of course) made and printed on Velcro which are simply married up with ones Velcro strip and can be pealed off.

Bearing in mind Velcro can peal back at the corners like brushing boots etc, one therefore purchases several tags for the future.

Well that's the idea no doubt somebody will refine the issue but it is essential that everybody who is out hunting wears a readable name tag. Including foot followers.

All in a hunt's prescribed Velcroed pattern.

That has an additional advantage, anybody not wearing or having obtained the right style of name tag or no name tag at all - especially sabs, can receive special treatment.

It must be large enough to be readable at least three metres.

One other point, over the years I have arrived on the scene of too many falls where the identity of the rider is not exactly clear. Especially young people.

Masters etc and others cannot be expected to know everybody, but if they can put a name to a face it half the battle.

*So what do you all think? After all it's standard practice in the military, most businesses and certainly the majority of sports. *


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## Judgemental (13 August 2010)

The above posted at 07:17 now 10:33 and no comment.

Well let&#8217;s take the NAME TAG proposal a stage further and this is directed directly at MASTERS, HUNT SECRETARIES, and TREASURERS AND THE COMMITTEE'S generally.

The actual prescribed nametags to be issued by the hunt in prescribed form with the member&#8217;s name.

The tag will only be issued once the season's subscription has been paid or part thereof.

Thus once you have your nametag, everybody will know you have paid and I would venture an evens bet, that if the system were adopted, subscriptions would flow in with remarkable speed. All by 1 October.

Because it would be bad form to appear without a nametag, because you aint paid? 

OK so there might be issues about visitors from hunts who do not adopt the nametag procedure, but then everybody will know they are visitors.

Actually that was the original purpose of having a hunt button and a velvet coloured collar denoting which hunt one came from.

The entire nametag proposal is, is a contemporary extension of something that was put in place in the 19th century.

So far silence, which in my world means, "oh help, somebody has actually suggested something easy, meaningful and shall we say makes hunting people more identifiable (literally and figuratively) with the great British public, does it not?"

This must be right, how about a comment from The Masters of Foxhounds Association?


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## marmalade76 (13 August 2010)

Hmmm, What about sabs getting hold of peoples' names, finding their addresses and them harassing them?

I would have no problem with wearing a name tag - my married name is well know round here, but as I don't subscribe....

Can't see it happening myself.


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## Judgemental (13 August 2010)

marmalade76 said:



			Hmmm, What about sabs getting hold of peoples' names, finding their addresses and them harassing them?

I would have no problem with wearing a name tag - my married name is well know round here, but as I don't subscribe....

Can't see it happening myself.
		
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I thought of that and that is why I suggested Velcroed Tags.

If when the word is out that there are Sabs about, everybody simply peels (hey I can spell peel after all) the tag off and slips it in their pocket.

That is another way of collectively disapproving of 'sab presence' and warns others. 

The procedure could be useful for all sorts of purposes by sending different messages. Indeed placed upside down could mean suspect sabs are about saves the master etc asking questions.


Anyway what have sabs got to sab these days - a trail hunt.


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## marmalade76 (13 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Anyway what have sabs got to sab these days - a trail hunt.
		
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LOL, yes, they've got what they wanted, you'd have thought that they would have given up by now - suppose the LACS employees don't want to be out of a job!


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## Judgemental (13 August 2010)

marmalade76 said:



			LOL, yes, they've got what they wanted, you'd have thought that they would have given up by now - suppose the LACS employees don't want to be out of a job!
		
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That of course is indicative of the fact Sabs are simply reactionary.

I have been thinking further about this Name Tag proposal. If the positioning were as with the military (by the way I have no military connections) i.e. on the right in similar manner i.e. the surname only, I think it would provide a huge  image boost for hunting.

I would welcome hearing Janet George's opinion, bearing in mind her excellent experince when she was the PR officer for the CA.

Another thing if the name is clear you can be certain the bearer will be impeccably polite and friendly. 

Some have lectured me on the working of businesses and drawn comparisons with office procedure.

Any good Personnel Officer will tell you that the name clearly displayed causes the bearer to be mindful of their PR conduct. The military take the same view.

Think about it folks?


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## ester (13 August 2010)

*tentatively steps in*

as a newbie I would find some sort of person ID/their role in committee quite useful.


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## Judgemental (13 August 2010)

ester said:



			*tentatively steps in*

as a newbie I would find some sort of person ID/their role in committee quite useful.
		
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Welcome, good to have you out with us ester. You have made a very good point people hunting with a pack for the first time or have moved into a new country simply do not know who all the players are.

This is one for The Masters of Foxhounds Association is it not? Presumably they look at the Hunting Forum on the Horse and Hound Website everyday.

If not, it would be a good idea if it was watched, because the Internet is a very powerful tool to help hunting.

Clearly there are some extremely well informed people coming onto this forum, who are making very constructive suggestions, proposals to which the powers that be should respond?


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## Simsar (13 August 2010)

JM I wish you'd stop with all the ****!

Afternoon Janet how's the breed show going. Sarah not Simon.


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## Judgemental (13 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			JM I wish you'd stop with all the ****!

Afternoon Janet how's the breed show going. Sarah not Simon.
		
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Simsar if I understood your last post, I would be pleased reply.

That said, one assumes that everybody has an opinion and long they may be able to express their views.

Otherwise there would be no point in having forums such as these.

by the way I tried to visit your Website but it appears not to be working?  

If the business of Hunting wants to repeal the Hunting Act 2004, they will have to accept considerable change and I for one, have many ideas of how and where to impliment change.


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## Judgemental (13 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			JM I wish you'd stop with all the ****!

Afternoon Janet how's the breed show going. Sarah not Simon.
		
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Simsar, just one other point on page 2 of Re: shocked - mounted hound exercise 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You said and I quote "Its a sport for us and and a business for the hunts!"

I have no argument with that, indeed I fully agree with your opinion.

However this is 2010 and we have experienced six years of the Hunting Act 2004.

In order to restore some fundamentals there has to be change and as a result:

1. There is a need for identity name tags

2. There is a need for customer statisfaction protocols

Those are necessary from a business perspective, notwithstanding the need to persuade our law makers that Self Regulation would work, which is one of the current tenets of The Masters of Foxhounds Association, in order to facilitate some sort of a repeal. 

You have to give a 'bit' to get a 'bit' in this world - no pun intended. 

_But much depends what you want to snaffle I suppose?  _


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## Sarah Sum1 (13 August 2010)

Poor old foxes 







 
My intelligent input


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## Mocha (13 August 2010)

Do you think there has been a deterioration in manners, respect and curteousy since the ban?

Being from Ireland, where hunting is still legal (foxes anyway!) and serves a purpose in most places, I can't see how the 'drag system' works. Are you paying the landowners? If so, would the majority of people not be of the mentality 'you pay your money, you hunt' especially newcomers, or members who have joined, post-ban.

Similar to at a competition venue. Very few people at a competition go out of their way to thank the staff, organisers, helpers etc They pay their money, they compete.
(unless its a small or locally run show)

The anti's may have achieved in reality what they so detested, turning hunting into a 'sport', without the tradition, culture or purpose.

Here, where hunting is still legal, I doubt any reasonable person would fail to wave/smile, thank or talk to people on the ground. For all you know, they could be the daughter/sister/brother/mother/father/neighbour of the landowner?

Its with their permission that you hunt across the land, so it makes sense.


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## Orangehorse (13 August 2010)

I also think that all riders should keep some "high viz" leg bands, etc. tucked into their coats, so when they arehacking back to their lorry in the gloom they will be visible to road users, and not be cross as motorists who don't see them at the last minute as they are invisible in their dark clothes (ladies particularly).  That is being polite to other road users.


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## DragonSlayer (13 August 2010)

What a debate!

For a few years, I hunted as a visitor with a local hunt, but one season, my OH made me a full subscriber as an early xmas present. 

You can imagine I was over the moon....but although the cheque was cashed, I recieved nothing...AND the huntball was approaching that me and the OH wanted to go to....

So I wrote a letter, and asked very politely why I hadn't recieved any info on the meets....I got a lovely letter from the Masters wife apologising profusely and to make myself known at the next meet I went to....which I did. They had seen me about sometimes before I was a subscriber and were thrilled I had finally joined them....they couldn't have been nicer.

Bad news though...I got pnemonia and that put paid to my hunting season!!!

Been with other hunts too....all have been friendly and welcoming, never had any bother.....

It's unfortunate that people DO come across negativity, but as has been said, you get it in all walks of life.....and the biggest bunch of unwelcoming people I have Come across were a hockey club!!!


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## Judgemental (13 August 2010)

ORANGEHORSE said:



			I also think that all riders should keep some "high viz" leg bands, etc. tucked into their coats, so when they arehacking back to their lorry in the gloom they will be visible to road users, and not be cross as motorists who don't see them at the last minute as they are invisible in their dark clothes (ladies particularly).  That is being polite to other road users.
		
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Orangehorse your comment is very appropriate, indeed very sensible and practical.

However many years ago I had a florencent tabard for just such a purpose.

Upon hacking home one evening, indeed it was very dark after a magnificent hunt after a travelling dog fox. I encountered two ladies of the far back - right up themselves - high crowned blue hat brigade, who asked what I was wearing. So I informed them.

They said to one another, "some of our members do have some strange habits". Ok, somewhat jokingly, but the inference that it was NOCD (not our class darling) to wear something reflective and to be practical.

I offered them my spare, they replied in total horror, "we would'nt be seen dead with one". 

That about sums it up!


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## Irishlife (13 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Orangehorse your comment is very appropriate, indeed very sensible and practical.

However many years ago I had a florencent tabard for just such a purpose.
		
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I am enjoying this!

Our hunt staff have mini halogen headlights strapped to their boots and you can always see your way home because of the horses shoes giving off sparks over the stone walls.

I was born and bred in Surrey, went out with the Union, Mr Goschens, Crawley and Horsham and found them fine. There are pompous prats in all walks of life not just the hunting world. I recall sitting on trains from Surrey listening to the tedious conversations and sniggering silently at the sheer of "had to mow the pony paddock at the weekend", "Oh How much land do you have?" "Two Acres"!!! yada yada yada. 

I then moved to Sussex which suited me better and now in Ireland this last decade or so I am in my bloody element. Our master(s) wear top hats, most of us follow etiquette but nobody turns a hair at the showjumpers in their blousons and GPA's or kids in pink saddles and matching jods. Mostly hunt pockets are used for cans of Bulmers and everybody gets over the country as most of the field will dismount/chase/give a lead/knock down a wall so every follower can follow the hunt to its conclusion. No gate openers (the walls are lower than gates anyway - lol) . The tail riders are fantastic and everyone is helpful and friendly. On a good day with 80 stone walls to the mile it is nothing short of magic.

May I suggest "HUNT CREW" on the backs of jackets in large lettering like the FBI wear?


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## Judgemental (14 August 2010)

Irishlife said:



			I am enjoying this!

Our hunt staff have mini halogen headlights strapped to their boots and you can always see your way home because of the horses shoes giving off sparks over the stone walls.

I was born and bred in Surrey, went out with the Union, Mr Goschens, Crawley and Horsham and found them fine. There are pompous prats in all walks of life not just the hunting world. I recall sitting on trains from Surrey listening to the tedious conversations and sniggering silently at the sheer of "had to mow the pony paddock at the weekend", "Oh How much land do you have?" "Two Acres"!!! yada yada yada. 

I then moved to Sussex which suited me better and now in Ireland this last decade or so I am in my bloody element. Our master(s) wear top hats, most of us follow etiquette but nobody turns a hair at the showjumpers in their blousons and GPA's or kids in pink saddles and matching jods. Mostly hunt pockets are used for cans of Bulmers and everybody gets over the country as most of the field will dismount/chase/give a lead/knock down a wall so every follower can follow the hunt to its conclusion. No gate openers (the walls are lower than gates anyway - lol) . The tail riders are fantastic and everyone is helpful and friendly. On a good day with 80 stone walls to the mile it is nothing short of magic.

May I suggest "HUNT CREW" on the backs of jackets in large lettering like the FBI wear? 

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Like it or not PRESENTATION AND IMAGE are everything these days.

Interesting that nobody has fundamentally disagreed with the idea of having a name tag.

Indeed there has been no dissent from The Masters of Foxhounds Association, assuming they participate on this forum - which they should - do they?

In fact the majority of comments favour Name Tags.

Just in case somebody from the Masters of Foxhounds Association does participate, let me point out the power of the Internet.

The fact that hundreds of thousands of people can all communicate and express their views from all over the British Isles , indeed the world.

That means those who offend out hunting can be named and shamed.


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## EAST KENT (14 August 2010)

Perhaps IF we were more like Eire  in our informality there would NOT be this us and them attitude,which is what is behind all the hunt banning acts in the first place! Bloody great ,I say,off to Eire to see for myself..tout de suit


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## EAST KENT (14 August 2010)

Irishlife said:



			I am enjoying this!

Our hunt staff have mini halogen headlights strapped to their boots and you can always see your way home because of the horses shoes giving off sparks over the stone walls.

I was born and bred in Surrey, went out with the Union, Mr Goschens, Crawley and Horsham and found them fine. There are pompous prats in all walks of life not just the hunting world. I recall sitting on trains from Surrey listening to the tedious conversations and sniggering silently at the sheer of "had to mow the pony paddock at the weekend", "Oh How much land do you have?" "Two Acres"!!! yada yada yada. 

I then moved to Sussex which suited me better and now in Ireland this last decade or so I am in my bloody element. Our master(s) wear top hats, most of us follow etiquette but nobody turns a hair at the showjumpers in their blousons and GPA's or kids in pink saddles and matching jods. Mostly hunt pockets are used for cans of Bulmers and everybody gets over the country as most of the field will dismount/chase/give a lead/knock down a wall so every follower can follow the hunt to its conclusion. No gate openers (the walls are lower than gates anyway - lol) . The tail riders are fantastic and everyone is helpful and friendly. On a good day with 80 stone walls to the mile it is nothing short of magic.

May I suggest "HUNT CREW" on the backs of jackets in large lettering like the FBI wear? 

Click to expand...

Sounds fab..what part of Eire is this in,it sounds like the west somewhere


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## Daddy_Long_Legs (14 August 2010)

Can I come down and hunt with you irishlife??? Sounds fab!!

I am up in the Northeast and if there are newcomers who come in blousons they are usually grand a few times and then asked if they are going to hunt regularly that perhaps they might get a hunt coat! Usually someone has a spare one that they borrow for a while!!

We try and be as friendly as possible, welcome all newcomers and ask them loads of questions! We are also a very sociable hunt.


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## Simsar (14 August 2010)

sarahsum1 said:



			Poor old foxes 

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Do you know what I'm beginning to agree!  Well the scent of one anyway


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## Irishlife (14 August 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			Sounds fab..what part of Eire is this in,it sounds like the west somewhere
		
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Yes indeed the west! you would be very welcome. 

Huntingmadineire - Are you with the Meaths? we just got your huntsman!


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## Irishlife (14 August 2010)

Judgemental

The colour of duct tape to wrap around  brushing boots in these parts at the moment is silver since a choice of colours became available.

Presentation and Image are the icing on the cake, it is the fundamental nature and character of people that create a collective conciousness that engenders a welcoming or frosty atmosphere or indeed changes a situation or creates an ideaology.  I am a great traditionalist and prefer the correct attire/tack etc to be worn and there is not a rider on this earth that does not undergo a change of emotion when pulling on their boots whether that be excitement, a sense of professionalism or even "don't my legs look good". We gain confidence also in correct attire and "feel the part". 

Name tags? Better to carry a medical card in your pocket if you are going for the full id.  It all seems a bit para military to me and does not need anymore detractors in the press - imagine the hoo ha that would stir up.


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## D66 (14 August 2010)

"I am up in the Northeast and if there are newcomers who come in blousons they are usually grand a few times and then asked if they are going to hunt regularly that perhaps they might get a hunt coat! Usually someone has a spare one that they borrow for a while!!"

You are missing the point.  You are still weeding out those who can't afford a hunt coat.  Hunts need to welcome everyone who turns up at the meet.  Booted and plaited or not.

Presentation and PR are not the icing on the cake.  your lack of understanding of the public's perception of you is the reason hunting is (currently) doomed.  Shooting and fishing will be next.


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## Serenity087 (14 August 2010)

I have to ask... has someone missed the obvious that there is already a "tag" system of sorts in place?

Hunt staff wear red (or gold, met the Berkeleys the other day  ) coats with collars which correspond to the hunt they're a member of.  Our secretaries and other staff are in black with yellow collars.  That, IMO, is all the identification one needs.

But then, I also made the effort to meet the staff, I have been introduced to all the masters, and had a very pleasant conversation with one whilst hacking to the meet.  My hunt, who I hope to return to this season, has already had some fabulous comments in this thread, and I'll concur for a bunch of toffs they're a blinking friendly bunch!

Yes, maybe for the sake of Joe Public, the Master's want to be wearing a huge name tag, but I don't see why.  Ask anyone who's part of the hunt and they won't try and keep the Master's identity a secret!

The only downside to knowing everyone now is that I haven't been able to show my face since my horse behaved incredably badly.  It was about 4 years ago now, so I hope they've forgotton!


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## Judgemental (14 August 2010)

As I said when I first posted on this subject, "remember where you first heard this, i.e. the issue of name tags".

The fundamental tenet upon which The Masters of Foxhounds wants repeal of the Hunting Act 2004 is that they can offer Self Regulation to DEFRA, i.e the Department of the Environment and Rural Affairs.

Personally I feel that is the right and proper way for there to be a repeal, assuming it can be achieved on the floor of the House of Commons.

DEFRA may say fine, but how do we check up on you at any given time, rather like a VAT or TAX inspector's spot check, turning up unannounced. Remember there is a ban in place and ultimately you would be dealing with Civil Servants. 

In my opinion, in order for Self Regulation to be a runner, it must be seen that everyone and I mean everyone, engaged in a days hunting can be readily identifiable by name.

Think about it and you will reach the same conclusion.


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## Simsar (14 August 2010)

So at the meet take names, addresses, date of birth NI number or take a followers reg number.  The eventing health card not sure what its called is a very good idea, but this thread alone has made me want to give up hunting, its a tradition so keep it traditional, and as far as business lets run it like a golf club not all memebers have to have name badges ID.  Or am I totally missing the point.


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## Simsar (14 August 2010)

Anyway back to the title.

Too many who hunt are unfriendly and get hunting a poor social reputation, that's not just the followers, its certain hunt staff too!!!


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## Judgemental (14 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			So at the meet take names, addresses, date of birth NI number.
		
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Those who monitor self regulation i.e. Civil Servants will be under considerable pressure from so called Hunt Monitors (former Sabs)

Think about the position of a Civil Servant not necessarily attending a meet, might even attend on a horse - how to get a days hunting at the tax payers expense. 

Please think about the logistic of Self Regulation.

DEFRA to whom the MFHA will be answerable must be able to readily identify the 'players', so they can technically issue a Yellow Card if necessary. Before anybody jumps on me I am speaking figuratively.

In order to give DEFRA comfort they, DEFRA must have COMFORT that they can easily see who is participating.

If I was a Civil Servant with DEFRA detailed to carry out a spot check on a hunt I would not bother to attend the meet that would be an instant giveaway.

No I would quietly potter along and find hounds and the 'event' at about 13:00 hrs.

Frankly I don't think hunting people really understand what self regulation entails - when one is dealing with a government department and there is proposal to have a repeal of an Act of Parliament and it is very possible that Act may be repealed on TERMS to be agreed.

Have another think about this concept.

They, the governement and their civil servants are going to want some copper bottomed assurances.


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## Alec Swan (14 August 2010)

Irishlife said:



			Judgemental

The colour of duct tape to wrap around  brushing boots in these parts at the moment is silver since a choice of colours became available.

Presentation and Image are the icing on the cake, it is the fundamental nature and character of people that create a collective conciousness that engenders a welcoming or frosty atmosphere or indeed changes a situation or creates an ideaology.  I am a great traditionalist and prefer the correct attire/tack etc to be worn and there is not a rider on this earth that does not undergo a change of emotion when pulling on their boots whether that be excitement, a sense of professionalism or even "don't my legs look good". We gain confidence also in correct attire and "feel the part". 

Name tags? Better to carry a medical card in your pocket if you are going for the full id.  It all seems a bit para military to me and does not need anymore detractors in the press - imagine the hoo ha that would stir up.
		
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Irishlife,

PRESACTLY!!

Alec.


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## Simsar (14 August 2010)

17h 12yr old gelding ex show hunter for sale.


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## Judgemental (14 August 2010)

Alec Swan said:



			Irishlife,

PRESACTLY!!

Alec.
		
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Much as one would like to decamp to Ireland where the hunting is concerned, fact of the matter is we are where we are and have to make the best of a bad job!


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## Judgemental (14 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Those who monitor self regulation i.e. Civil Servants will be under considerable pressure from so called Hunt Monitors (former Sabs)

Think about the position of a Civil Servant not necessarily attending a meet, might even attend on a horse - how to get a days hunting at the tax payers expense. 

Please think about the logistic of Self Regulation.

DEFRA to whom the MFHA will be answerable must be able to readily identify the 'players', so they can technically issue a Yellow Card if necessary. Before anybody jumps on me I am speaking figuratively.

In order to give DEFRA comfort they, DEFRA must have COMFORT that they can easily see who is participating.

If I was a Civil Servant with DEFRA detailed to carry out a spot check on a hunt I would not bother to attend the meet that would be an instant giveaway.

No I would quietly potter along and find hounds and the 'event' at about 13:00 hrs.

Frankly I don't think hunting people really understand what self regulation entails - when one is dealing with a government department and there is proposal to have a repeal of an Act of Parliament and it is very possible that Act may be repealed on TERMS to be agreed.

Have another think about this concept.

They, the governement and their civil servants are going to want some copper bottomed assurances.
		
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So, if the Act is Repealed and on the basis of Self Regulation, expect to be under scrutiny!


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## Daddy_Long_Legs (14 August 2010)

Irishlife said:



			Yes indeed the west! you would be very welcome. 

Huntingmadineire - Are you with the Meaths? we just got your huntsman!
		
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No I'm not! But you got their whip Spud!!! I didn't realise he was going to be huntsman over there.


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## Daddy_Long_Legs (14 August 2010)

digger66 said:



			"I am up in the Northeast and if there are newcomers who come in blousons they are usually grand a few times and then asked if they are going to hunt regularly that perhaps they might get a hunt coat! Usually someone has a spare one that they borrow for a while!!"

You are missing the point.  You are still weeding out those who can't afford a hunt coat.  Hunts need to welcome everyone who turns up at the meet.  Booted and plaited or not.

Presentation and PR are not the icing on the cake.  your lack of understanding of the public's perception of you is the reason hunting is (currently) doomed.  Shooting and fishing will be next.
		
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Would you turn up to a football match in an old t-shirt and shorts???? Of course we are welcoming them, it's not that expensive to get a hunt coat these days. Maybe I am missing the point but I still think correct turnout is important.


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## Serenity087 (15 August 2010)

I was given two hunting coats by a very friendly member of the hunt!  I still have one somewhere!!!

Seriously, lets not get started on the presentation of the hunt.  It's an equestrian event, ALL horsey events have uniforms and expect riders and mounts to be presented as thus.  you wouldn't see a jockey in jeans and a t-shirt, or a top showjumper in a tracksuit, so lets keep it smart for hunting too please.

That, and a good hunting coat will keep it's owner warm and dry, which is slightly more important than whether you look like a tit on a horse or not!


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## Tharg (15 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Like it or not PRESENTATION AND IMAGE are everything these days.
		
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+100,000

It is extremely important to be aware of PR.  It is a good idea to bring refectives with you when hunting, even a hat and something to clip onto the top of your boots is better than nothing.

It can be interesting how the sight of a red coat can boil peoples blood.


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## skewby (15 August 2010)

QR

Good post!  And I do know what you mean.  Growing up as the poor kid at pony club with dodgy tack and a loan horse, I seemed to develop a huge chip.  I went hunting for what I knew it would do for me and my horse (worked on a hunting yard from 11 to 16, never found horses like it before or since, had a huge desire to turn my horse into that), with huge misgivings about how I may be treated.

My hunt is fabulous.  We stick out like a sore thumb at every meet - and yes, there are those who look down their noses at us and will not return my smile or "good morning" at the meet.  I am the working class kid, yet I would never be so rude.  So a mental note is taken.

However, these are such a minority as to be barely noticeable, and it says far more about them than it does about me, or my horse.

This morning on hound exercise my horse got stupidly excited to see hounds again, and broke away from my wagon and rampaged off.  A mahoosive coloured marauding, riderless and bridleless, with his headcollar round his neck and lead rope (with twine still attached ) dangling.  A clever lady caught him for me (after a few failed attempts), four or five members of the mounted field then held on to him and surrounded him while I bridled him , and a lovely lady on foot took my now redundant headcollar back to my wagon for me, and everyone made light of it.

That is a good, welcoming hunt, in my mind.  I already knew they were this way, after taking my horse out many times, unable to ride one side of him when push came to shove.

I have guested at another hunt and encountered chaos and dreadful rudeness, brought on to my mind by too much drink.  Being burst out of a gateway by two men apparently oblivious to my presence (hard to believe on a 16hh very heavyweight coloured draught cross), I took my horse home shortly after.  I want my danger out hunting to be from jumping a hedge or galloping flat out over unknown terrain.  I do not feel the need to risk injury to me or my horse, just by minding my own business when others clearly think I need to be shown my place as a newbie or stranger, or whatever it is they consider me.

My hunt has earned my allegiance and subscription/cap for as long as I am able to turn up.  Mounted or otherwise.  I firmly believe that the good hunts such as mine will survive; whereas the others may realise all too late that tradition and heritage is not all; but new money is what will keep them alive.


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## LindaW (15 August 2010)

I've pretty much stopped hunting because of the rudeness of the members of one hunt, members of that hunt often state how friendly they are - but in actual fact they are friendly to people who are acceptable to their clique NOT all comers.  I went out with a different hunt and found some of the worst offenders out as guests and had an awful day again.  I'm correctly turned out, on a well mannered horse and a generally smiley person - twice I've been in tears because of remarks made.

Sticking with the bloodhounds who are generally friendlier, more down to earth, have a better day with better jumping and hugely better value for money.  I doubt ordinary hunts will have my support again, and they've lost the support of my best friend who's hunted all of her life, and 2 other friends who were introduced on one of my horses, who's become a hunting schoolmaster in the years since we started.


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## skewby (15 August 2010)

LindaW said:



			twice I've been in tears because of remarks made.
		
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That is appalling!  How horrible for you.  Don't blame you for not going back, why on earth should they get your hard earned cash?  Let's face it, it's never cheap xxx


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## marmalade76 (15 August 2010)

LindaW said:



			Sticking with the bloodhounds who are generally friendlier, more down to earth, have a better day with better jumping and hugely better value for money.
		
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Totally agree and have said the same thing myself on here many a time!


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## Judgemental (15 August 2010)

LindaW said:



			I've pretty much stopped hunting because of the rudeness of the members of one hunt, members of that hunt often state how friendly they are - but in actual fact they are friendly to people who are acceptable to their clique NOT all comers.  I went out with a different hunt and found some of the worst offenders out as guests and had an awful day again.  I'm correctly turned out, on a well mannered horse and a generally smiley person - twice I've been in tears because of remarks made.

Sticking with the bloodhounds who are generally friendlier, more down to earth, have a better day with better jumping and hugely better value for money.  I doubt ordinary hunts will have my support again, and they've lost the support of my best friend who's hunted all of her life, and 2 other friends who were introduced on one of my horses, who's become a hunting schoolmaster in the years since we started.
		
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I knew that if I started this thread such comments would be made.

I come from a well known hunting family, hunt extensively and my own family have come home and said exactly the same. Indeed one will simply not go anymore! 

Hopefully this thread will percolate to The Committee of the Masters of Foxhounds Association and they will take heed and give some explicit directives to Masters and Secretaries for the coming season, especially where young people are concerned.

If they want a repeal and self regulation, this is all part and parcel of what is needed.  

There has to be a complete seachange in the hunting field. Those who have the superiority complex of being right up themsleves, being told to their faces in front of everybody where they are going wrong in their attitude. In exactly the same way as a master would inform somebody what they thought of them if they galloped over his or her hounds.

I don't care if they own a couple of thousand acres over which the hunt hunts, they can learn to understand - CUSTOMER CARE, because that is what it boils down to. Anybody who tells me that you must tread carefully, because Lady this or Sir that, owns the land and it's his or her neice, Uncle Tom Cobbly and all, well that that's just tough luck, *because they should have not allowed the Hunting Act 2004 to happen in the first place.* 

They all know who they are and there is no excuse not to 'whip' them into line.  

However, as I say, it has to come from the top.

There are ways of naming names on a forum such as this, without being libellous.

THEY ALL KNOW WHO THEY ARE - GET THEIR HOUSE IN ORDER


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## Serenity087 (15 August 2010)

However, has no one considered that this percieved "rudeness" may actually be fear in some quarters?

Some people who turn up are only there to ruin everyone elses day, expose the brutal murderers, and when that fails, they turn to abusing hunt members.

Has anyone, taking into account this fear, actually bothered to get to know people or do people just turn up on the day?

Another business at risk of attack from animal rights fanatics is Huntingdon Life Sciences.  A work chum, many many moons ago, had to attend HLS for some exam or something.  She came back to our labs furious at her treatment.  however, even she could see that their pressing need to get her in and out without manners was actually fear of those standing outside hurling abuse, the fact that she may have been one of them.

It doesn't help the PR at all.  But these are people are a rightly afraid of those who stand outside.

If hunt sabs would only feck off, I wonder how the PR of hunts would improve...


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## Judgemental (15 August 2010)

Harper_Gal said:



			However, has no one considered that this percieved "rudeness" may actually be fear in some quarters?

Some people who turn up are only there to ruin everyone elses day, expose the brutal murderers, and when that fails, they turn to abusing hunt members.

Has anyone, taking into account this fear, actually bothered to get to know people or do people just turn up on the day?

Another business at risk of attack from animal rights fanatics is Huntingdon Life Sciences.  A work chum, many many moons ago, had to attend HLS for some exam or something.  She came back to our labs furious at her treatment.  however, even she could see that their pressing need to get her in and out without manners was actually fear of those standing outside hurling abuse, the fact that she may have been one of them.

It doesn't help the PR at all.  But these are people are a rightly afraid of those who stand outside.

If hunt sabs would only feck off, I wonder how the PR of hunts would improve...
		
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I agee the presence of Sabs can be worrying but all the more reason to 'cuddle' up to ones kindred spirits and be very friendly. Speak and Smile - it works


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## Daddy_Long_Legs (16 August 2010)

Is it fear or shyness?

Maybe some people just feel too shy to go and introduce themselves therefore they come across as being arrogant and rude because they haven't come and said hello.

There are always going to be people who are rude in every club whether it be golf, football, rugby!!!


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## Serenity087 (16 August 2010)

HuntingmadinEire said:



			Is it fear or shyness?

Maybe some people just feel too shy to go and introduce themselves therefore they come across as being arrogant and rude because they haven't come and said hello.

There are always going to be people who are rude in every club whether it be golf, football, rugby!!!
		
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Probably both!

Doesn't help that having not said hello, someone runs off to an internet forum, points out they're upper class, makes the association between coming across as rude and being posh and then decides all posh hunters are rude.

Oh rudeness, how I have missed you living up north


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## Judgemental (16 August 2010)

Harper_Gal said:



			Probably both!

Doesn't help that having not said hello, someone runs off to an internet forum, points out they're upper class, makes the association between coming across as rude and being posh and then decides all posh hunters are rude.

Oh rudeness, how I have missed you living up north 

Click to expand...

Perhaps hunt's need to run Pre-Season Customer Care seminars - any excuse for some 'refreshment' and jolly banter.

Yes, I think it should be free, not a money spinner, get all the membership old, young alike. In a hall or whereever. Masters, Committee up front on a stage and provide a lecture with questions and answers concerning the coming season.

They can tell the membership where they are welcome and not welcome and all the do's and don'ts. 

*Especially at this critical time with matters going back to the House of Commons.*

If one has met all the players on their feet, it's easy when mounted etc and yes, everybody could have Name Tags at the seminar!


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## EAST KENT (16 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Much as one would like to decamp to Ireland where the hunting is concerned, fact of the matter is we are where we are and have to make the best of a bad job!
		
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Possibly you are right,but for me interest in this country disappeared with that Act,and cannot show the slightest interst in it;houndwork was always my thing ,combating the wily ways of the main player..dusters don`t do that. So,that being the case of to Eire it is..Clare on the Limerick side is the destination.


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## Paddydou (16 August 2010)

Harper_Gal said:



			Probably both!

Doesn't help that having not said hello, someone runs off to an internet forum, points out they're upper class, makes the association between coming across as rude and being posh and then decides all posh hunters are rude.

Oh rudeness, how I have missed you living up north 

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What is it with the North/ South thing?

I recently attended a wedding where one of the partners didn't know anyone. The vast majority where from "up North" yet her partner teamed her up with us "a couple of southerners" because he knew that she would be well looked after, kept involved and enjoy herself with us despite her shyness.

People are people no matter where they come from. I am from the south and have noticed that some of the not so friendly hunts mentioned have been from the south but they are not the ones that I have had personal dealings with and I reiterate, I have only ever had positive exeriances with hunting folk. I really don't think being a "Northerner" or a "Southerner" actually makes one iota of difference. 

I do get sick and tired with people from "up north" assuming that because I am a "southerner" that I am rude! 

Sorry off topic rant now over!

I agree that the Act should never have happened and wouldn't IF hunts projected themselves in a more positive light during their day to day activities.


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## Judgemental (16 August 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			Possibly you are right,but for me interest in this country disappeared with that Act,and cannot show the slightest interst in it;houndwork was always my thing ,combating the wily ways of the main player..dusters don`t do that. So,that being the case of to Eire it is..Clare on the Limerick side is the destination.
		
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East Kent as you can see from another thread somebody has started the issue is going back to the floor of the House of Commons, which our hero Otis Ferry trod the boards thereof.

Seriously and very seriously everybody must get it through his or her head that there is a COALITION GOVERNMENTrunning this country.

Whilst a goodly number of MPs are considering the why's and where fores of hunting live game.

There will be many wanting to see that hunting is all-inclusive.

*HUNTING AS WE KNEW IT IS NOW IN THE LAST CHANCE SALOON   *


If any of these MP'S of whatever political persuasion think that hunting is anyway socially divisive then forget a repeal with self-regulation


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## marmalade76 (16 August 2010)

HuntingmadinEire said:



			Is it fear or shyness?

Maybe some people just feel too shy to go and introduce themselves therefore they come across as being arrogant and rude because they haven't come and said hello.
		
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I agree, I am rather shy myself and find introducing myself rather daunting! So rather than hunts expecting newbies to make themselves known to the hunt staff, would it not be better for the hunt staff to find the newbies and introduce themselves and maybe even introduce them to other members of the field also?


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## JenHunt (16 August 2010)

skewby said:



			My hunt has earned my allegiance and subscription/cap for as long as I am able to turn up.  Mounted or otherwise.  I firmly believe that the good hunts such as mine will survive; whereas the others may realise all too late that tradition and heritage is not all; but new money is what will keep them alive.
		
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and that's the way it should be IMO... it comes down to customer service at the end of the day!

P.s. Skewby, that's why I don't tke Ron cubbing, it does his head in!


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## Starbucks (16 August 2010)

marmalade76 said:



			I agree, I am rather shy myself and find introducing myself rather daunting! So rather than hunts expecting newbies to make themselves known to the hunt staff, would it not be better for the hunt staff to find the newbies and introduce themselves and maybe even introduce them to other members of the field also?
		
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Nice idea but are hunt staff not too busy doing their jobs?


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## marmalade76 (16 August 2010)

Starbucks said:



			Nice idea but are hunt staff not too busy doing their jobs?
		
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Is it not the sec's job to collect cap/field money? Surely this is something they could do at the same time?


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## ester (16 August 2010)

here's a thought, though I was helped by knowing someone , but just basically seeing it as an outsider. 

If hunt staff were aware there were newbies in the field might it be feasible when the master the field is addressed for the the we will be going this way that way, hunting within the law etc etc. For them to also include something like 'we also have some newbs in the field today so for the sake of them I am ...., please pay..... your huntsman is.... etc etc obv not too long but just a brief mention of names with perhaps a tag on the end to say please keep an eye out for them and tell them off (nicely!) if they are doing something wrong (Only because I would hate to be doing something wrong!)

or something like that anyway.


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## EAST KENT (16 August 2010)

There will be many wanting to see that hunting is all-inclusive.

*HUNTING AS WE KNEW IT IS NOW IN THE LAST CHANCE SALOON   *


If any of these MP'S of whatever political persuasion think that hunting is anyway socially divisive then forget a repeal with self-regulation[/QUOTE]

 Not quite sure of your meaning here..do you mean a hunt ban on ALL field sports as being "all inclusive", always thought that was the aim of all the bunny huggers anyway! Actually foxes are doing quite good PR for a repeal,what with nipping at babies and campers ,are`nt they.


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## Starbucks (16 August 2010)

marmalade76 said:



			Is it not the sec's job to collect cap/field money? Surely this is something they could do at the same time?
		
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Oh ok don't think the sec counts as hunt staff but I get what you mean.  At the end of the day though the sec is normally just a regular paying customers too who just gives their time up to help so after they've done all their regular jobs they probably just want to chill out/get on with their day.

I do think that sometimes it seems that newbies expect everyone else to bend over backwards to help them/be nice to them/show them what to do but everyone else is probably just getting on doing their own thing.  It's not that they are being mean/snobby or anything just getting on with riding their horse/talking to their friends.

I'm joining a brand new hunt this year where I know nobody at all so I suppose I'll be able to comment more then!  But I won't be expecting any special treetment just because I am "new money".


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## ester (16 August 2010)

no but having hunted plenty before your worries are likely different to other proper newbies  

I don't think any bending over backwards needs to go on, just that maybe, a few simple, not difficult/time consuming changes might make it better. 

As I said earlier I have really enjoyed going out with the hunt I have been out with but def enjoyed subsequent times better than the first.


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## Judgemental (16 August 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			There will be many wanting to see that hunting is all-inclusive.

*HUNTING AS WE KNEW IT IS NOW IN THE LAST CHANCE SALOON   *


If any of these MP'S of whatever political persuasion think that hunting is anyway socially divisive then forget a repeal with self-regulation
		
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 Not quite sure of your meaning here..do you mean a hunt ban on ALL field sports as being "all inclusive", always thought that was the aim of all the bunny huggers anyway! Actually foxes are doing quite good PR for a repeal,what with nipping at babies and campers ,are`nt they.[/QUOTE]

I am referring to the hunt and hunting on horses with hounds as being all inclusive SOCIALLY.

There were a number of susequent posts about how the Officers of the Hunt should make themselves known to the field - I like to call them The Congregation on this forum.

I am sure you will agree I anticipated that for the benefit of the Newbies - (that's a first for me Newbies), when I called for each hunt to hold a Pre-Season Seminar:

_"Perhaps hunt's need to run Pre-Season Customer Care seminars - any excuse for some 'refreshment' and jolly banter.

Yes, I think it should be free, not a money spinner, get all the membership old, young alike. In a hall or whereever. Masters, Committee up front on a stage and provide a lecture with questions and answers concerning the coming season.

They can tell the membership where they are welcome and not welcome (i.e. on whose land) and all the do's and don'ts. 

Especially at this critical time with matters going back to the House of Commons.

If one has met all the players on their feet, it's easy when mounted etc and yes, everybody could have Name Tags at the seminar!" _

In other words the old hands and existing membership get in there, press the flesh, chat people up, finesse them, flatter them, butter up the WAGAMs. Make a fuss of everybody, make them feel part of the team - bond with your supporters and they bond with all the others.

Not too much 'bonding'!


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## EAST KENT (16 August 2010)

Oh I cannot see leopards changing their spots..some hunts are nice and welcoming..and some are so far up their  ***** they can`t see out. I cannot equate "customer friendly " as being a familiar idea to most of them.


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## Judgemental (16 August 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			Oh I cannot see leopards changing their spots..some hunts are nice and welcoming..and some are so far up their  ***** they can`t see out. I cannot equate "customer friendly " as being a familiar idea to most of them.
		
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Oh they are and they will, you are about to see the most extraordinary, 'ney' astonishing seachange in the hunting world!


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## marmalade76 (16 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Oh they are and they will, you are about to see the most extraordinary, 'ney' astonishing seachange in the hunting world!
		
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Do you know something we don't?


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## EAST KENT (16 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Oh they are and they will, you are about to see the most extraordinary, 'ney' astonishing seachange in the hunting world!
		
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OOOps there went a flying pig!!!!  Time will tell


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## Judgemental (16 August 2010)

marmalade76 said:



			Do you know something we don't?
		
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No but look at my post below East Kent


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## Judgemental (16 August 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			OOOps there went a flying pig!!!!  Time will tell

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It is very simple. Nobody has woken up to the fact the government is a COALITION.

This is not directed at you EAST KENT but what part of C O A L I T I O N  do people not understand.

Nick Clegg has said himself he thinks the whole subject should be left where it is.

Therefore is it is clear the Lib Dems are going to extract an extremely high price from the Conservative party to cut a deal. 

*Part of the price for certain, will be an end to Social Divisiveness in hunts.*

Another part of the deal will be wrapped up in land ownership and the tenancy of land.

If everybody and the Conservative party wants the Hunting Act 2004 repealed, I predict that a remarkable set of Seachanges will occur in the Countryside. 

Furthermore the Lib Dems will use the Hunting Act 2004 as a very effective bargaining tool to strengthen their position in the West Country and amongst their core vote. 

The Hunting Act 2004 is the best Christmas Present that the Labour Party could have given the Libs Dems and it will be used in remarkable ways - Remember where you first heard this opinion.


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## tootsietoo (16 August 2010)

That's interesting Judgemental.  What is the Lib Dem's policy on land tenure?  Do they want big changes?  I will go and google.

But I wonder how the government could legislate to end social divisiveness in hunting, or in fact how they could even identify if it exists?


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## Judgemental (16 August 2010)

tootsietoo said:



			That's interesting Judgemental.  What is the Lib Dem's policy on land tenure?  Do they want big changes?  I will go and google.

But I wonder how the government could legislate to end social divisiveness in hunting, or in fact how they could even identify if it exists?
		
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Well now tootsietoo - I like that handle!

Were does one begin.

There is one particular issue that really irritates many many tenant farmers and that is the right of hounds to hunt over tenanted farms. The majority would wish to negotiate with the Master directly.

Doubtless everybody will say that is the case, in any event but come the day a tenant says, "no I don't want to see you this season, the ground is too wet and you badly poached it last season" etc etc, then all hell breaks loose and the tenant is summoned to the estate office and given a lecture on being a 'good and compliant tenant'.

As I have mentioned in a previopus post the majority of land hunted by hunts is in the hands of about 7,000 people or organisations, out of a population of 62 million.

The vast majority of those landowners - what is known generally as The Great Landed Inherited Estates, stipulate in their tenancy agreements that hounds have the right of passage at any time of the day or night.

Yes, there are a few exceptions and some terms are modified on some estates but generally that is rule.

In the west country it is a particular issue and tenants would wish to have complete control over when and if hounds may come on the farm.

It might not be a huge vote catcher in terms of numbers but it is an issue. Therefore a totemic means of the Lib Dems demonstrating their power, even where the sacred cow of land ownership is concerned.

More in the next episode............


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## EAST KENT (17 August 2010)

As they did not take heed of the mighty fact finding mission prior to the Act..that was a mere sop to the country/hunting vote,really I cannot believe social division even occurs to any MP. All those ignoramouses see is Basil Brush being "torn apart alive". It might be repealed as unworkable though and given back into the hunts regulating themselves . Come on Charlie ..have a gnash on some more humans and give hunting the very best PR job possible. I do admire your faith though JM,and indeed if it were as inclusive here as it is in Eire..then probably we would still be bombing around after foxes.


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## SusannaF (17 August 2010)

Just out of curiosity, wasn't there a "third way" proposed? For hunting to remain legal but be more tightly regulated? I met someone who was on the committee, I think.

Might that play a role too?


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## Judgemental (17 August 2010)

SusannaF said:



			Just out of curiosity, wasn't there a "third way" proposed? For hunting to remain legal but be more tightly regulated? I met someone who was on the committee, I think.

Might that play a role too?
		
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SusannaF, I believe you have touched on the proposals that the Lib Dems put forward before the ban and had as part of their policy for many years.

I don't know where Lord Ashdown (Paddy) stands on the issue these days but years ago he certainly took the tightly regulated view. Bear in mind he stood for a constituency within the Cattistock country and Paddy was well informed on the subject of Social Divisiveness.

East Kent sorry I did not respond with your quote but in essence you are right too little was done before the ban in this respect.

Listen folks you have two Ex Public School boys of the contemporary era, running the country, one of which is an old Etonian and the other Westminster was it? Somebody correct me if I ham wrong.

The latter probably has his heart in the best interests of the country, as does Cameron. However the latter is part of the Great Landed Estates (does his father-in-law not own a chunk of Norfolk) where the sycophantic toadies are two a penny. So Cameron's position is tricky to say the least on the Hunting Act and any deal he cuts with Clegg.

But to come back to the point, if the Lib dems are going to make their mark this will be a major issue for them, bearing in mind the West country is their core vote and hunting is a primary issue (in the countryside) especially where the Devon & Somerset Staghounds and Quantock Staghounds are concerned and excessive numbers of deer eating the dairy farmers grass. The herds at the very least need to be moved on by hounds and only the full pack can do that effectively. The Lib Dems are so I am reliably informed, wanting to move Self Regulation forward especially where the West Country hunts are concerned but on their terms and make 'changes' to the way the countryside is run on a business basis and socially for their ultimate voting kudos. Also in a way that will leave the west country and hunting inoperable without a strong Lib Dem political presence in government, or dare I say it, a Lib Dem government but that I think is too a &#8216;draw&#8217; too far. 

The only problem with all this is if Clegg thinks he has the whip hand and starts running a heel line in these matters.  

However, I predict that they will keep Cameron in Downing Street for the duration of this government i.e. up to 15 May 2015 because it is the only way they can achieve anything, especially having been out of office for what, 100 years.

I am also reliably informed that Lord Paddy Ashdown has a very firm hand on the hunting steering wheel. That is no bad thing because he understand the subject in detail.

So when you think government, think COALITION and remember Cameron has to cut a deal on just about everything with Clegg and Co to stay in Downing Street.


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## Paddydou (17 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Therefore is it is clear the Lib Dems are going to extract an extremely high price from the Conservative party to cut a deal. 

Furthermore the Lib Dems will use the Hunting Act 2004 as a very effective bargaining tool to strengthen their position in the West Country and amongst their core vote. 

The Hunting Act 2004 is the best Christmas Present that the Labour Party could have given the Libs Dems and it will be used in remarkable ways - Remember where you first heard this opinion.
		
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We had a Lib Dem where I live and as part of the fight I wrote to ask that they support Hunting and vote against the act. 

I recieved the rudest most abnoxious reply I have ever know. In this letter I was called all manner of things from murderer, facist etc. 

I would not trust the Lib Dems. They were supporting Labour in the creation of the Act even if many did not fully participate.

I believe that where this country has far greater problems that require more attention our best bet is to push those facts forward and ask what difference the act has actually made? All it has done is increase wasted police/ court time as someone tries to figure out what the "law" actually is. That and the fact that hunts have in general obided by the rules laid down and the sabs have not clearly show that hunts are not in the habit of breaking the laws of our land and that the sabs are clearly a bunch of zealots. 

Push this forward and any person will get very tired of it very quickly. It is a law that is unenforcable, incomprehensive and very foolishly written.

I suspect that Nick Clegg has far more concerns than the Hunting Act and as such would rather spend time sorting out the real basics of our country. If we get in there now we have a far higher chance of pointing out that the whole situation is silly to the n'th degree.

Don't forget that the Lib Dems also need the conservatives.


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## Judgemental (17 August 2010)

Paddydou said:



			We had a Lib Dem where I live and as part of the fight I wrote to ask that they support Hunting and vote against the act. 

I recieved the rudest most abnoxious reply I have ever know. In this letter I was called all manner of things from murderer, facist etc. 

I would not trust the Lib Dems. They were supporting Labour in the creation of the Act even if many did not fully participate.

I believe that where this country has far greater problems that require more attention our best bet is to push those facts forward and ask what difference the act has actually made? All it has done is increase wasted police/ court time as someone tries to figure out what the "law" actually is. That and the fact that hunts have in general obided by the rules laid down and the sabs have not clearly show that hunts are not in the habit of breaking the laws of our land and that the sabs are clearly a bunch of zealots. 

Push this forward and any person will get very tired of it very quickly. It is a law that is unenforcable, incomprehensive and very foolishly written.

I suspect that Nick Clegg has far more concerns than the Hunting Act and as such would rather spend time sorting out the real basics of our country. If we get in there now we have a far higher chance of pointing out that the whole situation is silly to the n'th degree.

Don't forget that the Lib Dems also need the conservatives.
		
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Paddy, I don't doubt it and I have been told personally by our own MP that Nick Clegg 'runs with the hare and hunts with the hounds'.

Yes, but the Hunting Act 2004 is part of the Conservatives Holy Grail or Sacred Cow, there are thousands of hunting people who were mobalised at the election to support prospective hunting MPs.

One of which promptly arrived in the job and has been a very naughty girl! No doubt we can have forgiveness in our hearts. Weaknesses especially amongst fit, healthy horsey people are inevitable.  

So the bottom line is that the Conservatives have to and are expected to deliver and extremely quickly. 

If it all went pear shaped between Cameron and Clegg for what ever reason (although my personal take is that they remain in the 'love nest' - that's how the Civil Servants refer to Downing Street for the full gestation period), then they will be out of office and fighting another General Election and all those Hunting Campaigners will be very important. 

Thus the prospective candidates will be able to say we delivered - hopefully. 

We can all talk about it on forums such as this, but when it gets into the corridors of power and the House of Commons run by a Coalition Government, in my opinion it's all bit like spinning a Roulett Wheel.


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## EAST KENT (17 August 2010)

If Clegg "runs with the hare ...etc" that just makes him the same as any bloody MP,or any committee member in the country as far as I can see,never met or heard of anything different,do so admire your faith JM.


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## Paddydou (17 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			One of which promptly arrived in the job and has been a very naughty girl! No doubt we can have forgiveness in our hearts. Weaknesses especially amongst fit, healthy horsey people are inevitable.  

We can all talk about it on forums such as this, but when it gets into the corridors of power and the House of Commons run by a Coalition Government, in my opinion it's all bit like spinning a Roulett Wheel.
		
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That would be the one I voted for...and have been voting for, for quite some time! Met on several occasions and is a great friend of a friend who was very shocked and embarrassed by it all! Silly but doesn't make her Satan does it? We are all mere mortals of the flesh after all. Not something I would personally choose to do but each to their own and I have also made mistakes of epic proportions in my time.

Still dispite her "naughty traits" she is all in all a good cookie and I heard she was out on boxing day - good on her!

I think all in all the coalition will work out. I have been fairly impressed with what they have done so far and they appear to be taking a strong line. Disposing with petty ideas brought to the helm by labour (horse tax for example) and concentrating on the more important issues. I am crossing my fingers that they will simply abolish the Act and get on with more pressing issues in hand. 

I agree with your Roulett theory, you will always have this in a true democracy as you are dealing with people, however I do also believe that between them Cameron and Clegg are going to get somewhere and restore faith in our belittled political system! Coalitions have worked very well in other countries, its about time it worked in ours. Cross fingers to the hunting worlds benefit!


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## Judgemental (17 August 2010)

Paddydou said:



			That would be the one I voted for...and have been voting for, for quite some time! Met on several occasions and is a great friend of a friend who was very shocked and embarrassed by it all! Silly but doesn't make her Satan does it? We are all mere mortals of the flesh after all. Not something I would personally choose to do but each to their own and I have also made mistakes of epic proportions in my time.

Still dispite her "naughty traits" she is all in all a good cookie and I heard she was out on boxing day - good on her!

I think all in all the coalition will work out. I have been fairly impressed with what they have done so far and they appear to be taking a strong line. Disposing with petty ideas brought to the helm by labour (horse tax for example) and concentrating on the more important issues. I am crossing my fingers that they will simply abolish the Act and get on with more pressing issues in hand. 

I agree with your Roulett theory, you will always have this in a true democracy as you are dealing with people, however I do also believe that between them Cameron and Clegg are going to get somewhere and restore faith in our belittled political system! Coalitions have worked very well in other countries, its about time it worked in ours. Cross fingers to the hunting worlds benefit!
		
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Oh yes forgiveness is everything and names are not mentioned. However this just reminds everybody to behave themselves if they want to be taken seriously on this very sensitive issue.


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## Judgemental (17 August 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			If Clegg "runs with the hare ...etc" that just makes him the same as any bloody MP,or any committee member in the country as far as I can see,never met or heard of anything different,do so admire your faith JM.
		
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Thank you East Kent faith is everything!

That's about all we can hope for - LOL


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## Judgemental (18 August 2010)

I have my hat in the air and the master is blowing Gone Away - 

*3001 Views and 125 comments*

Going back over the forum I am having difficulty in topping that for any thread.

But the point is, a Labour Government was allowed to bring in the 2004 Hunting Act and now you all have to wake up to a COALITION GOVERNMENT to resolve the issue.

It is the best political drag or trail in modern times, because the Lib Dems will keep running from covert to covert with the drag. Will it turn into a live Charlie, who knows. 

But it has the best political scent for a 'travelling dog fox' with a political agenda.


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## Equibrit (21 August 2010)

It's about ime ALL you people got over the stupid "class" ****.


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## rosie fronfelen (21 August 2010)

----and in english this says?????


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## Judgemental (22 August 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			----and in english this says?????
		
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I am with you Rosie; it is difficult to understand Equibrit's post.

Nevertheless there have been 128 posts and 3380 views of this thread - if class is an issue, then that number of views must be indicative of there being a problem.

Coupled of course to good manners, the social issues of hunting - agricultural landlords and tenants - customer care - the fact money is paid, therefore folk expect to see 'sport' and receive a service.

Then there are the political questions at this very sensitive time.

Can anybody name the MP's who know a thing or two about hunting and regularly ride?

I know there is Mrs Caroline Noakes MP for Romsey, who amongst other things is the Tack Check Lady at Hursley Hunt Pony Club events. But it would be constructive if we could identify all those in Parliament who properly understand our world of horses and hunting?

I think we should use this forum to know who they all are? Is anybody with me to list them all?

I will go a stage further. In my opinion the subject of hunting so complex and technically involved it requires considerable knowledge to make a fair assessment.

It was clear to me that there were no Labour MP's in the last administration who either hunted, rode or indeed knew anything about hunting or had had a hands on experience on a regular basis. 

If they were company directors, under the Company's Act and the Department of Trade and Industry, (is it still called that?) then one is obliged to know one's subject.

In my opinion those deciding the issues of hunting have a duty of care to be able to say and prove they ride, they hunt and have regularly attended hunt gatherings.

What do you all think?


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## Lizzie66 (22 August 2010)

I think you will find that Kate Hoey was a labour MP during the last administration and is very vocally pro-hunting.


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## rosie fronfelen (22 August 2010)

she is hell of a brave lady speaking out for what she believes in. This in  my view is going too far regarding businesses and companies etc, its only an amateur sport come pest control, depending on the "country" of course, and i for one knows it'll stay that way here-thanks be to god!!


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## Judgemental (22 August 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			she is hell of a brave lady speaking out for what she believes in. This in  my view is going too far regarding businesses and companies etc, its only an amateur sport come pest control, depending on the "country" of course, and i for one knows it'll stay that way here-thanks be to god!!
		
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I forgot about Kate Hoey - very remiss of me. My apologies should you be a contributor of reader of this thread. 

Rosie, you are right. I was always brought up to understand hunting was a sport However as you will recall in the early days of this thread I referred to hunting being a sport. But as you know the whip was used on me (to a little excess but not sufficent for a stewards enquiry) saying it was a BUSINESS.

Taking into account the costs - all of them and the costs to those that hunt - 4 x 4 vehicles - horses - tack - feed for horses and hounds - clothing - entertainment (that's can be expensive in some hunting circles)  -  vets bills - rent & rates - building and repairs - fuel - Vat - lorries & their plating & maintenance and on road costs - legal fees - bank charges - accountants fees - fees to the Countryside Alliance and other associated bodies - collection of fallen stock from farmers - wages - national insurance - insurance policies for just about everything - I am sure I have missed some elements nevertheless I have had to revise my opinion to it all pointing to a business.

What you say is fair in the Welsh Hills but the trouble is the closer you get to the Home Counties the more the costs rise.

Therefore my argument with the Politicians is that they should understand, ideally with some hands on experince, what is involved and how the economy benefits.  

Have the Masters of Foxhounds Association ever invited all MPs to visit a hunt kennels for example? Not some hunt where it would be a vain glorious exercise in one-up-man-ship.  

If not why not?

If they have, who declined the invitation and why, is another point!

*Come on folks you are all sitting there with a ban - the Hunting Act 2004, having allowed the whole system to gallop all over you*


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## Judgemental (22 August 2010)

AN OPEN OPINION (I am a mere poltroon so I don't advise) TO THE MASTERS OF FOXHOUNDS ASSOCIATION.

If you should be so amazingly innovative as to invite all MP's to visit hunt kennels then I suggest:

1) You guarantee not to invite the press

2) You do not allow any pictures to be taken - unless the MP's request same.

3) *Every MP is given a complimentary copy of Bailey's 

4) *Every MP is given a complimentary subscription to Horse and Hound for a year 

* I am sure some rich benefactor can be found to foot the bill unless those publications decide it's a good idea and want to look after their self interests.

That said, when there is a no-show by any MP, they are written to again and invited a second time.


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## rosie fronfelen (22 August 2010)

i agree with all you say, but to be brutally honest i am past caring about the attitudes and whinging of hunts in england.things have changed so much for the worse,and standards have bottomed out in many cases.our neighbouringhunt is running too many hounds,bills are getting out of hand, and the committee squabbles at every meeting.what is the point???i can do little bar look at our glorious countryside and hope we continue as we do, i see no reason why we shouldn't!! we had a check 18 months ago from the chap from the welsh mfha who gave us10/10- we do not run a fallen stock scheme as we do not feed flesh-so no hiccups there.any MP is welcome to visit but i doubt any will bother!!i love living in another age and letting the rest of the world pass us by--by the way,judge,Bailys is only online now, another sign of the times!!


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## JanetGeorge (22 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			AN OPEN OPINION (I am a mere poltroon so I don't advise) TO THE MASTERS OF FOXHOUNDS ASSOCIATION.

If you should be so amazingly innovative as to invite all MP's to visit hunt kennels then I suggest:

1) You guarantee not to invite the press

2) You do not allow any pictures to be taken - unless the MP's request same.
		
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It's all been done - time and again!  The Tories usually turn up, some of the Lib Dems do, and VERY few of the Labour MPs!  Hell, we used to take the bu**ers hunting.  I recall accompanying one anti-Labour MP - whose name escapes me - to a Cubbing meet at the Quorn! (How's THAT for brave/foolhardy!)  The bu**er saw a kill close up - one hound, instant clean kill with not a drop of blood spilled.  Bu**er was on radio a few days later referring to foxes "being disembowelled and torn apart!" 

I also recall Julian Barnfield - then huntsman of the Worcestershire and one of the BEST spokesmen we had - VERY politely declining to shake Michael Foster's hand - in front of the cameras!


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## Judgemental (22 August 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			It's all been done - time and again!  The Tories usually turn up, some of the Lib Dems do, and VERY few of the Labour MPs!  Hell, we used to take the bu**ers hunting.  I recall accompanying one anti-Labour MP - whose name escapes me - to a Cubbing meet at the Quorn! (How's THAT for brave/foolhardy!)  The bu**er saw a kill close up - one hound, instant clean kill with not a drop of blood spilled.  Bu**er was on radio a few days later referring to foxes "being disembowelled and torn apart!" 

I also recall Julian Barnfield - then huntsman of the Worcestershire and one of the BEST spokesmen we had - VERY politely declining to shake Michael Foster's hand - in front of the cameras!

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Janet George, yes I know and I am the first to recognise how disengenuious some (yes that is probably an understatement) MP's can be on sorts of subjects.

However on the basis if you don't suceeed at first, try try again.

Now I did specify inviting them all only to Hunt Kennels. Frankly the Quorn would not be my first choice. But I could deal with at a later date.

Properly entertaining them - keeping the press and cameras out the frame.

We now have a Coalition Government, a coalition with some mighty fiscal issues to deal with.

That means all the Tories will be attending, the LibDems will attend because they will need to know how the wind is blowing and the Labour party will turn up enmass - trust me they will.

This is their legislation the 2004 Hunting Act and when it is emasculated they will be, well sitting there with egg on their face to say the least.

However in order to get a concensus for self-regulation they must all be able to say they understand the subject.

The trouble is and I think you said earlier in this thread something along the lines of "it takes some drilling to get into the heads of some masters of hounds".

Amongst other things, a master of hounds needs to be almost a professional PR officer, or at the very least he or she has one at their right hand at all times. 

The playing field is very different to pre-2004. 

Forgive me if I sound if I am lecturing you, but they are all on very weak ground - if the coalition fell apart and they needed to be seen to have 'done the right thing' come the election.

I am prepared to admit I know who the players are for the repeal game and frankly some don't impress me and should be sitting on the bench and/or turned out to grass!


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## Paddydou (23 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Rosie, you are right. I was always brought up to understand hunting was a sport However as you will recall in the early days of this thread I referred to hunting being a sport. But as you know the whip was used on me (to a little excess but not sufficent for a stewards enquiry) saying it was a BUSINESS.
[/B]
		
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This I do not understand. 

Hunting is a business, Hunting is a sport, Hunting is pest control, Hunting is a social activity, Hunting is many more things.

Saying that Hunting is a sport and not a business is daft! That equates to saying that Sailing is not a business or Formula One is not a business. All sport involves business. If it didn't then we wouldn't have swimming pools, golf clubs or trainers designed, built and made.

It really has become an extrodinarily (sp apologies - it is Monday morning!)emotive subject. As such it just seems that very few are able to look at it objectivly with out prejudice and look at ways of allowing the business (and sport) to move forward.


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## combat_claire (23 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			I am prepared to admit I know who the players are for the repeal game and frankly some don't impress me and should be sitting on the bench and/or turned out to grass!
		
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Personally I have a lot of time for the Repeal Ambassadors who are a distinct breed from the top brass sat on the Repeal Committee. 

As for the MPs as JanetGeorge has noted you can invite them till you are blue in the face and your typing fingers have ceased and yet the Labour anti-hunting MPs refuse to see if their hardened views will stand up to reality. The best excuse I had from a now unseated MP was that the kennels fell outside her constituency. This was a classic as the boundary ran pretty much past the kennels!


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## Judgemental (23 August 2010)

combat_claire said:



			Personally I have a lot of time for the Repeal Ambassadors who are a distinct breed from the top brass sat on the Repeal Committee.QUOTE]

Let's hope so and that they do a better job than was done in 2004 - they are so I believe, paid substantial professional fees.
		
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## Simsar (23 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			I have my hat in the air and the master is blowing Gone Away - 

*3001 Views and 125 comments*

Going back over the forum I am having difficulty in topping that for any thread.
		
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Sorry your way off NL must hold the record they have nothting better to do than post, and that's coming from someone that contributed to the breeding post that had 690 posts 26,722 views!


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## Judgemental (24 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			Sorry your way off NL must hold the record they have nothting better to do than post, and that's coming from someone that contributed to the breeding post that had 690 posts 26,722 views!
		
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If we are all going to start posturing on this point, then I must point out that BREEDING comes under a wholly seperate category. Furthermore you have not provided a time frame. 

This is HUNTING - in case you have not noticed and therefore a whole host of different protocols apply.

The current tally here is: 140 posts and 3742 views since 11/08/10 at 08:18hrs, now 24/06/10 at 08:36hrs what was your time frame on the relevant breeding post?


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## Paddydou (24 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			Sorry your way off NL must hold the record they have nothting better to do than post, and that's coming from someone that contributed to the breeding post that had 690 posts 26,722 views!
		
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Sadly Simsar is probably right its the only reason why I started reading and posting! Hopfully you will not see me so much in the winter!

I do believe that this thread would hold the record for the Hunting section.

Back to topic - do you think that this discussion will make a difference? I hope so but I wander how many huntsmen this would actually reach and then how many woudl take on board the comments and act apon them.


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## Judgemental (24 August 2010)

Paddydou said:



			Sadly Simsar is probably right its the only reason why I started reading and posting! Hopfully you will not see me so much in the winter!

I do believe that this thread would hold the record for the Hunting section.

Back to topic - do you think that this discussion will make a difference? I hope so but I wander how many huntsmen this would actually reach and then how many woudl take on board the comments and act apon them.
		
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Paddy I feel the essence of this thread is that there is an expression of views.

Whether or not anybody takes any heed of the opinions expressed is a matter of conjecture.

However the ability to express them, even if folk disagree is the fundamental of such forums.

Therefore taking an overview, it can be seen by all interested parties that there is an overiding issue concerning being friendly, good manners and providing sufficent information. Thus everybody participating is aware of whos who and whose land they are riding over etc to name but a few points that have come out of this discussion. 

Also it is clear that there is an asperation by many to feel 'included'.


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## Maesfen (24 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Therefore taking an overview, it can be seen by all interested parties that there is an overiding issue concerning being friendly, good manners and providing sufficent information. Thus everybody participating is aware of whos who and whose land they are riding over etc to name but a few points that have come out of this discussion. 

Also it is clear that there is an asperation by many to feel 'included'.
		
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That makes me laugh TBH.  Go and ask a member of the field whose land they're riding over and 90%, maybe more, just won't have a clue and furthermore, won't be interested either except for the fact that they are on it and able to ride over it.  When you even get local people who do not know that they hunt over your land what chance has a visitor got and many packs rely on visitors to swell the coffers.  It's alright the Master saying today we're hunting over messrs Jones, Smith, Williams and Evans; unless you have boundary signs up to say whose land you're actually standing on NOW, how are you to know without learning the local geography and knowledge before you start which would be too much like hard work for many of the field, they are just wanting a good ride, they won't want to do any homework to have it.  
Until you can instil in ALL who hunt, whether mounted or on foot so including beagles and bassets too let alone car followers, that the landowner is the most important part of the public relations needed for hunting, then you haven't got a cat in hell chance.
It's not just the Masters that need to do their homework, it's the fields' too, the field must take some responsibility to learn too not just shrug their shoulders and point to others.


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## combat_claire (24 August 2010)

From an agent's point of view it is incredibly difficult to keep up with who owns or is farming a particular piece of land. The olden days when Mr Jones farmed a nice block of land at Elm Farm and nothing else are long gone. The land market is also incredibly fluid and can be sold and let on a regular basis. It seems rather unrealistic to expect the field to carry this information about with them. 

I would suggest as an alternative that instead behaviour should be exemplary throughout the hunting day. Follow the other horse's tracks exactly instead of chatting with your mates, keep off stewardship strips, avoid trampling growing crops, don't push your way through young hedging plants and above all be polite. You simply cannot know that the person you didn't bother to thank or were totally vile too is the landowner, the managing agent or just a humble foot follower. 

Don't tell me none of this happens I have seen it with my own eyes. In fact I have been at the sharp end of rudeness from the mounted field on two occasions, which even from my perspective as a die-hard pro-hunting supporter made me want to shout '**** you then arrogant *******' and join the League!


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## Judgemental (24 August 2010)

Maesfen said:



			That makes me laugh TBH.  Go and ask a member of the field whose land they're riding over and 90%, maybe more, just won't have a clue and furthermore, won't be interested either except for the fact that they are on it and able to ride over it.  When you even get local people who do not know that they hunt over your land what chance has a visitor got and many packs rely on visitors to swell the coffers.  It's alright the Master saying today we're hunting over messrs Jones, Smith, Williams and Evans; unless you have boundary signs up to say whose land you're actually standing on NOW, how are you to know without learning the local geography and knowledge before you start which would be too much like hard work for many of the field, they are just wanting a good ride, they won't want to do any homework to have it.  
Until you can instil in ALL who hunt, whether mounted or on foot so including beagles and bassets too let alone car followers, that the landowner is the most important part of the public relations needed for hunting, then you haven't got a cat in hell chance.
It's not just the Masters that need to do their homework, it's the fields' too, the field must take some responsibility to learn too not just shrug their shoulders and point to others.
		
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Thank you  Maesfen, this gives support to my view that there should be pre-season seminars, at which all these things can be discussed and demonstrated. I believe self regulation will generate the need for seminars and not just pre-season but throughout the season.

What is needed is hunting education.

I don't care how long or short this thread is or becomes, it is clear from comments such as those made by Combat_claire above that something needs to be done about properly educating those that hunt.

Frankly I blame the parents! LOL


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## Simsar (24 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			If we are all going to start posturing on this point, then I must point out that BREEDING comes under a wholly seperate category. Furthermore you have not provided a time frame. 

This is HUNTING - in case you have not noticed and therefore a whole host of different protocols apply.

The current tally here is: 140 posts and 3742 views since 11/08/10 at 08:18hrs, now 24/06/10 at 08:36hrs what was your time frame on the relevant breeding post?
		
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LOL How boring is your life??


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## Judgemental (24 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			LOL How boring is your life??
		
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Until autumn hunting starts - very!


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## Simsar (24 August 2010)

Omg have you not started yet, maybe you should come to us Simsar I mean not Surrey and choose your own pack. You have possibly started something now!  JM on tour to find the friendliest pack in the UK.

PS our site is back online.


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## Judgemental (24 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			Omg have you not started yet, maybe you should come to us Simsar I mean not Surrey and choose your own pack. You have possibly started something now!  JM on tour to find the friendliest pack in the UK.

PS our site is back online.
		
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Something along the lines of Cobett's Rural Rides then?


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## Simsar (24 August 2010)

Exactly!

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ron.strutt/rrwhy.html

But we can call yours Justmentle rural rides. xx


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## Paddydou (25 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			Exactly!

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ron.strutt/rrwhy.html

But we can call yours Justmentle rural rides. xx
		
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I am going with this. A suberb guide to hunts across the country is waiting to be written! 

I assume it was a typo and it was supposed to be Judgemental Rural Rides and not JustMental Rural rides!!! 

As for education I would be extreemly interested to know whos land I was riding across. I wouldn't ride on someones land with out permission on a daily basis but I would like to know who had help facilitate the day while out hunting.


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## combat_claire (25 August 2010)

Judgemental,

Do you know the title of a book where the author aims to hunt with every pack of foxhounds in the UK and ends with his final meet at the fishery in Exebridge. Sorry to be vague but my friend who recommended it can't remember author or title details, it sounds great. Was it Rory Knight-Bruce's red letter days or something older than that??


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## Simsar (25 August 2010)

Paddydou that's my name for JM, in the nicest possible way though, we have this thing going!!!  Just trying to bring a smile into these very serious posts. Love you JM. x


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## Alec Swan (25 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			Paddydou that's my name for JM, in the nicest possible way though, we have this thing going!!!  Just trying to bring a smile into these very serious posts. Love you JM. x
		
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Mentaljudge,  if you wish,  you can add another to that!!  An excellent thread!

Alec.


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## Judgemental (25 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			Paddydou that's my name for JM, in the nicest possible way though, we have this thing going!!!  Just trying to bring a smile into these very serious posts. Love you JM. x
		
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Oh Simsar, I am overwhelmed, I had no idea you cared......my innocence is, shall we say, my weakness.


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## Judgemental (25 August 2010)

Alec Swan said:



			Mentaljudge,  if you wish,  you can add another to that!!  An excellent thread!

Alec.
		
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Thank you


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## Simsar (25 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Oh Simsar, I am overwhelmed, I had no idea you cared......my innocence is, shall we say, my weakness.
		
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Of course I care.


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## Judgemental (25 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			Of course I care.
		
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I nearly missed it! 

The thread has topped over 4000 views - for a hunting thread too.

Clearly there is something in that, that we all need to care about.

For every view I believe the ratio laid down by Internet Buffs is 3 to 1 so about 12,000 give or take, might be informed on the subject on the basis folk might talk about a subject, clearly of considerable interest.


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## Simsar (25 August 2010)

You've gone all boring again! x


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## Judgemental (25 August 2010)

Sorry hit the wrong key - on the wrong leg.


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## Judgemental (25 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			You've gone all boring again! x
		
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Oh you are naughty - but I like you, even if you are just a little whimsical with me!


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## Doncella (25 August 2010)

What is needed is hunting education.

I don't care how long or short this thread is or becomes, it is clear from comments such as those made by Combat_claire above that something needs to be done about properly educating those that hunt.

Frankly I blame the parents! LOL[/QUOTE]

What about educating hunts as to how to deal with new members.
A few years ago before the ban I joined a hunt, I'm not in a mounted hunt country so I had to go south about 50 miles.
It took them 3 months to email a hunt card to me for two seasons running.  Due to various problems either the horse wasn't functioning or the lorry wasn't functioning so I went to meets on foot.  This immediately put me as the lowest of the low.  When members then found out I was too far north of the country, wasn't a farmer, didn't own land and was obviously too stupid to have my lorry mended or my horse sorted out I was just ignored because I was of no use.
This was a very expensive exercise to be a member of what is basically a scabby hunt.
I haven't hunted since which is a shame because up in Yorkshire I didn't have a problem.


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## Simsar (26 August 2010)

Doncella said:



			What is needed is hunting education.

I don't care how long or short this thread is or becomes, it is clear from comments such as those made by Combat_claire above that something needs to be done about properly educating those that hunt.

Frankly I blame the parents! LOL
		
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What about educating hunts as to how to deal with new members.
A few years ago before the ban I joined a hunt, I'm not in a mounted hunt country so I had to go south about 50 miles.
It took them 3 months to email a hunt card to me for two seasons running.  Due to various problems either the horse wasn't functioning or the lorry wasn't functioning so I went to meets on foot.  This immediately put me as the lowest of the low.  When members then found out I was too far north of the country, wasn't a farmer, didn't own land and was obviously too stupid to have my lorry mended or my horse sorted out I was just ignored because I was of no use.
This was a very expensive exercise to be a member of what is basically a scabby hunt.
I haven't hunted since which is a shame because up in Yorkshire I didn't have a problem.[/QUOTE]

First sentance is spot on.

They are all very willing to take your money on newcomers and then you are forgotten about weeks later I have seen that happen a lot with various packs.  Bring back the 80's I say. Live and let live, the hunts (a lot ) of them need having a word with.  So make it mandatory to educate everyone.


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## Simsar (26 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Oh you are naughty - but I like you, even if you are just a little whimsical with me!
		
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Oh your showing your age now JM.


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## Paddydou (26 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			Paddydou that's my name for JM, in the nicest possible way though, we have this thing going!!!  Just trying to bring a smile into these very serious posts. Love you JM. x
		
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I have to admit to becoming rather fond of Ol' JM... Would you mind terribly if I joined your fan club???

I have to agree with the education comments. But I believe that its education all round. There are many who simply do not understand what hunting is. There are those who want to give it a go but are put off. There are also those that do the "putting off" probably with out realising it. The old days are gone, we can all be nostalgic about it but the world is rapidly changing all around us. For goodness sake we are now comunicating through computers rather than picking up the phone or dropping by! Perhaps the younger generations of hunters could help by teaching the older members how to deal with situations that they may perhaps feel uncomfortable with?


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## Judgemental (26 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			Oh your showing your age now JM.
		
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Now I am hurt and mortified.

However it should have been, "you are awful, _wacked with handbag_, but I like you!


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## Simsar (26 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Now I am hurt and mortified.

However it should have been, "you are awful, _wacked with handbag_, but I like you!
		
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I knew what you mean't JM, and that's good enough for me.


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## Simsar (26 August 2010)

Paddydou said:



			I have to admit to becoming rather fond of Ol' JM... Would you mind terribly if I joined your fan club??? 

I have to agree with the education comments. But I believe that its education all round AGREE 100%. There are many who simply do not understand what hunting is AGREE 200%. There are those who want to give it a go but are put off BACK TO 100%. There are also those that do the "putting off" probably with out realising it OH YES 300%. The old days are gone AND THAT IS SO SO SAD. WHEN THE FIELD ARE THERE TO DO A JOB!. we can all be nostalgic about it but the world is rapidly changing all around us IT DOESN'T NEED TO CHANGE JUST PEOPLE HAVE TO LEARN 1 ABOUT HUNTING 2 HUNT SHOULD TEACH THEM. For goodness sake we are now comunicating through computers rather than picking up the phone or dropping by! Perhaps the younger generations of hunters could help by teaching the older members how to deal with situations that they may perhaps feel uncomfortable with?
		
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I blame the Pony club!  Can I say that?????????????

Sorry all in caps!


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## Simsar (26 August 2010)

Paddyd, I'm up for fan club.

Just Mentle you ROCK!


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## Paddydou (26 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			Paddyd, I'm up for fan club.

Just Mentle you ROCK!
		
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Translation - Your a really great person.


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## Judgemental (26 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			Paddyd, I'm up for fan club.

Just Mentle you ROCK!
		
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I just been shining my halo - thank you and Paddy too - a fan club, oh gosh.

Of course Dick Emery was a tremendous comedian as was Jimmy Edwards, who I know hunted.

Pink tail coat and topper too!

Did he become a master of hounds?

I am sure somebody on this forum will know and if he did, which pack? 

The variety of this thread is really very rewarding.


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## Paddydou (26 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			I blame the Pony club!  Can I say that?????????????

Sorry all in caps!
		
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Of course you can say that! I am sure JM will give you permission!! 

I didn't go as Mum hated the other mothers being pushy all the time and she wanted me to have fun and not be pressurised.

Don't worry about the caps. 

My point was that many moons ago you had a structure in society called the class system. Hunting was partly about class. Those on horses were the upper class those on foot were lower classes. Being on a horse made it easier to look down too! 

Now the class system is all messed up. The "old money" is running out or been lost through several banking fiascos. I will blame Lloyds for this - they started it! "New money" is aspiring to do the things that they have always wanted (i.e. Hunt on horseback and foot!). The "old money" folk need to recognise that there are also those who go without their holidays to Majorca to hunt because it is their passion. Some are from the city and know nothing of farming ways... I quote (this is a real quote from last winter during the sledging season) "I wouldn't know crop from grass - how do you tell?" after I explained that no they were not allowed to sledge down any old field because they were causing thousands of pounds worth of damage to the crop, that it may be much more polite to ask the local farm... The crop didn't grow back... 

Hunting is far more diverse in this day and age than it has ever been. We should embrace that and encourage it so it survives in its traditional format. Does taht make any sense now?

City and country ways are very very different. Go to London, hop on the tube and smile and say hello to folk... Quickest way to get space and a seat I have ever found. Go to the country pop into the local pub and say hello and you will soon be finding out about the local history, folk reminissing about events, them finding out who you are... Very basic but very different. To a city born (or in more recent country born but city parent) a field is a field, its not producing an income it looks pretty. A cow is a cow, its not your next steak its a picturesque beast with a smelly behind. Horse muck isn't fertiliser unless it comes from Homebase in a plastic back labeled horse muck. There are still many who do not put "roast lamb for sunday dinner" and "lamb in the field" into the same category. The very word lamb means seperate things to them and they can get very upset that "Mopsie" is being served up with mint despite the word being the same! Seriously. We have a very poorly educated nation when it comes to country ways.

I admit I am no expert in counrty ways but being born and bred from country stock I have a much better idea of what is going on. Townies, bless 'em, haven't a clue. Same as me in the big city!


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## rosie fronfelen (26 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			I just been shining my halo - thank you and Paddy too - a fan club, oh gosh.

Of course Dick Emery was a tremendous comedian as was Jimmy Edwards, who I know hunted.

Pink tail coat and topper too!

Did he become a master of hounds?

I am sure somebody on this forum will know and if he did, which pack? 

The variety of this thread is really very rewarding.
		
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he followed at Rottingdean near Brighton, was this a pack- and no idea if he was an mfh?


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## Paddydou (26 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			I just been shining my halo - thank you and Paddy too - a fan club, oh gosh.
		
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You can blush - we would find it endearing!

I have no idea about Dick Emery - apologies.


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## RunToEarth (26 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			The high crowned Patey hat brigade, who think they are so smart that they cannot be bothered to talk to people.
		
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Yeah I'm a Patey brigade, so I must be up myself. I talk to everyone who actually knows what they are doing in the field. Like someone has already said on this thread, there are always a percentage of the field that do not have a clue whose land they have come across and whose field margin they are on- THAT is rude. 
I am now hunting with a VERY friendly bunch of people, I came fresh out of the woodwork last season as (then relatively new) OH whipped in and his father is master, I have never met such a bunch of lovely, well rounded people in all my life- you have to put in to get back- You can't expect to be the newbie at the back of the field who has no idea where they are, what the job in hand is and then whinge everyone is too far up their own arse.


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## rosie fronfelen (26 August 2010)

to make a comment on the"Patey brigade" was out of order- if my hubby could afford one he would buy one, for its comfort and lack of strappings, but as we are mere hill farmers all our cash goes on bills!!!


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## Cash (26 August 2010)

RunToEarth said:



			Yeah I'm a Patey brigade, so I must be up myself. I talk to everyone who actually knows what they are doing in the field. Like someone has already said on this thread, there are always a percentage of the field that do not have a clue whose land they have come across and whose field margin they are on- THAT is rude.
		
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As someone who is hoping to have a go at hunting for the first time this winter, THAT has got me worried, that people will get irritated with me/not talk to me because I'm a hunting novice - obviously i won't know everything, surely everyone starts like that?  Was thinking I'd follow on foot first to see how it all works and maybe ask some questions, or would that be similarly annoying? 
And I had no idea we were meant to know whose land we are going across at all times  And to be quite honest, sometimes it does seem like there is a whole load of stuff that you only know if you're a hunting veteran, and if these people won't share the information, and instead refuse to talk to newbies, what hope is there for us to learn and make the sport more popular?


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## rosie fronfelen (26 August 2010)

MOLLYA said:



			As someone who is hoping to have a go at hunting for the first time this winter, THAT has got me worried, that people will get irritated with me/not talk to me because I'm a hunting novice - obviously i won't know everything, surely everyone starts like that?  Was thinking I'd follow on foot first to see how it all works and maybe ask some questions, or would that be similarly annoying? 
And I had no idea we were meant to know whose land we are going across at all times  And to be quite honest, sometimes it does seem like there is a whole load of stuff that you only know if you're a hunting veteran, and if these people won't share the information, and instead refuse to talk to newbies, what hope is there for us to learn and make the sport more popular? 

Click to expand...

Mollya, take no notice of all the differing threads on here, there are so many and enough to put any novice off- we have a pack up here in wales, this is obviously irrelevant in your case butwhat i am trying to say is, go along on foot/horse, chat to folk and enjoy it, it is a very friendly pastime in general- good luck!!


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## ester (26 August 2010)

MollyA you will be more than likely fine I had a lovely time and met some lovely people the few times I went out last year for the first time, thankfully there were plenty of people who were more than happy to help a newb out and explain things if necessary so hopefully you will find some of them....... I actually would perceive it as rude to choose not talk to someone because they might not be sure what they were doing!  

And nope, a lot of the time couldn't say whose land I was on particularly as its not my local hunt... not sure why I would know that tbh unless someone told me/I had gleaned it from the instructions of the plan for the day given at the meet and then you sort of pick it up as you go along. *makes mental note to check the land registry for the entire area for future reference*


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## Paddydou (26 August 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			Mollya, take no notice of all the differing threads on here, there are so many and enough to put any novice off- we have a pack up here in wales, this is obviously irrelevant in your case butwhat i am trying to say is, go along on foot/horse, chat to folk and enjoy it, it is a very friendly pastime in general- good luck!!
		
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Ditto

Mollya go along and talk to as many as you can and have lots of fun. learn as much as you can and ask as many questions as you want. 

RunToEarth for many its not rudeness but ignorance. There are many out there who would love to learn but are put off asking and trying to learn so they can be "hunting polite". 

To be frank if I met you on my first hunt and you treated me with such indifference and rudeness I would not be back and I would tell my friends how rude you were. What sort of light would that put your field in to others? I would not go back. So the hunt would a. have lost my money b. lost a supporter who would possibly go on to fundraise and assist even when not partaking c. would be going round telling folk how damned rude and nasty you were adding to the mountain of bad press for hunts. 

Please tell me exactly how your hunt would benefit from any of those 3 things? I am very lucky that the hunting folk I have met have been welcoming informative, kind and generous with their time, knowledge, views and ideas. Mollya go and have fun and enjoy learning all that you can.


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## marmalade76 (26 August 2010)

RunToEarth said:



			Yeah I'm a Patey brigade, so I must be up myself. I talk to everyone who actually knows what they are doing in the field. Like someone has already said on this thread, there are always a percentage of the field that do not have a clue whose land they have come across and whose field margin they are on- THAT is rude. 
I am now hunting with a VERY friendly bunch of people, I came fresh out of the woodwork last season as (then relatively new) OH whipped in and his father is master, I have never met such a bunch of lovely, well rounded people in all my life- you have to put in to get back- You can't expect to be the newbie at the back of the field who has no idea where they are, what the job in hand is and then whinge everyone is too far up their own arse.
		
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God, I must be sooo rude - except when I've been hunting in my own area I have not had a clue who's ground I've been on (apart from the host, obviously), the Bloodhounds rarely met in my area and I would usually have to travel for an hour to a meet. Mind you, I have always managed to make myself very popular despite this as my horses have all been excellent gate horses! 

As for your new hunt welcoming you with open arms - I'm not at all surprised what with your BF's father being a master and you no doubt being mounted on one of his horses. But as for only speaking to those who 'actually know what they are doing', how arrogant are you? That's just the sort of attitude that is doing hunting no favours at all.


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## RunToEarth (26 August 2010)

People who are new to hunting and actually WANT to learn things I find generally ask, I'm not a hunting veteran, when have I ever stated that? When I want to know something I ask someone, that is what you do, it is how you make friends and how you get involved with the unmounted side of hunting. I'm referring to people who whinge that they came out on their first day and no one spoke to them, when they don't make an effort to get to know who people are. 
MOLLYA- I would go out on foot before hand- you learn a lot more that way and then it won't be quite so daunting when you go out mounted. 
I'm sorry, but OP comes on here slating everyone that doesn't make an effort with new people, what about new people making an effort to get to know regular hunters? 
A lot of the time people do perfer certain company out hunting, it doesn't mean they're unapproachable, it is just how things fall- some people prefer to stand and watch hounds, some people prefer to pass saddle flasks.


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## Countryside (26 August 2010)

The Countryside Alliance is once again holding Hunting Newcomers&#8217; week in association with the CHA. Newcomers&#8217; meets are the very best way for novices to try hunting &#8211; and also for hunts to prove their welcoming attitude to &#8220;newbies&#8221; by encouraging them to participate. 

The format has changed somewhat from last year, and the Alliance is now providing free posters, fliers and regional publicity to hunts to assist in marketing these meets. An email went out to  Masters and Secretaries at the end of July, and many hunts around the country have agreed to join this initiative once again. 

The Alliance recognises how hard it is both for novices to &#8216;try hunting&#8217; as well for hunts to entice new members &#8216;out of the fold&#8217; because of preconceptions and worries about what hunting actually involves. These meets give the opportunity for hunts to educate newcomers in etiquette and attire etc and many hunts who took part last year were delighted to gain subscribers throughout the season. 

The biggest threat to hunting iis not the ban, but that it will &#8216;die out&#8217; through lack of participants and it is therefore vital that all hunts and members welcome newcomers and encourage them throughout the season. 

We hope newcomers reading this board will be encouraged to attend a newcomers meet this season &#8211; as well as seasoned hunters encouraging their own hunts to hold a meet aimed at bringing newcomers to the field. 

For further information please contact chloe-finch@countryside-alliance.org.

Best, 
Chloe

Chloe Finch
Countryside Alliance


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## Paddydou (26 August 2010)

RunToEarth said:



			I'm sorry, but OP comes on here slating everyone that doesn't make an effort with new people, what about new people making an effort to get to know regular hunters? 

A lot of the time people do perfer certain company out hunting, it doesn't mean they're unapproachable, it is just how things fall- some people prefer to stand and watch hounds, some people prefer to pass saddle flasks.
		
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And some of the new people will be so daunted by all the new faces, horses, hounds, trying not to get lost or fall off and make a fool of themselves or over take anyone that they will be far to embarrassed or busy to ask! 

Wouldn't it be lovely if someone like yourself who knows the ropes, smiled and said hey let me introduce you to some people before buggaring off to do what you do?

What real harm can it do just to spend 5 minutes asking if someone has any questions or saying hello, my name is X, I haven't seen your face here before are you new would you like a hand? Offer to answer questions and say that you will be at the front/ back/ down the pub if they would like some help.

Its fine for you to go and do your own thing I am not suggesting that it is not and I think you will find that JM wasn't either however, if hunting is to survive this changing world it needs to change with it to acomodate the new people.

When I started Salsa dancing I met lots of new people. All the "old timers" aproached me and welcomed me, God did I feel a prat with them wiggling and flying all over the place and my two left feet stomping sort of around about but it was so much easier because there were smiles on faces I could ask anyone, which is the beginer lesson? Where is the loo? Did anyone see where I put my feet?! What is beat? What is tempo? 

Do not mistake rudeness with intimidated and shy.


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## Simsar (26 August 2010)

Paddydou said:



			Wouldn't it be lovely if someone like yourself who knows the ropes, smiled and said hey let me introduce you to some people before buggaring off to do what you do?

What real harm can it do just to spend 5 minutes asking if someone has any questions or saying hello, my name is X, I haven't seen your face here before are you new would you like a hand? Offer to answer questions and say that you will be at the front/ back/ down the pub if they would like some help.
		
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Perfectly put.


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## Simsar (26 August 2010)

I would just like to say this post has had more visits (I sound Like Just Mentle) than the both of the sticky's Advice for hunting newbies and Hunting terms for beginners.  I suggest we get a club together where we offer a hunt swap!


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## Judgemental (26 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			I would just like to say this post has had more visits (I sound Like Just Mentle) than the both of the sticky's Advice for hunting newbies and Hunting terms for beginners.  I suggest we get a club together where we offer a hunt swap!
		
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23:05 just in case you thought all our levity had sent me completely off my 'rocker', I am still viewing.

Feel part of an earlier post of mine is appropriate to rehearse:

"Perhaps hunt's need to run Pre-Season Customer Care seminars - any excuse for some 'refreshment' and jolly banter.In other words the old hands and existing membership get in there, press the flesh, chat people up, finesse them, flatter them, butter up the WAGAMs. Make a fuss of everybody, make them feel part of the team - bond with your supporters and they bond with all the others".

But by way of example in some ways that is what we have all been doing on this forum and that in my opinion is what everybody wants apart from a fantastic ride across well-fenced country and the joy of hearing the cry of hounds, the crow of the cockerel and the lowing of the cows etc. Is it not those elements amongst others we are looking for? 

Enjoy the beauty and romance of the countryside.


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## Paddydou (27 August 2010)

JM, I am mearly your humble fan however, pressing flesh and the romance of the countryside could get many a hunt into serious trouble! 

Isn't this what the introduction days are supposed to be about?

I would also reccomend offering "educational visits" to schools both urban and rural. See if you can club together so some the local farmers and do a "One day does all" day where they learn about hunting, farming, shooting, fishing, forestry etc and how it all neatly slots together.


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## combat_claire (27 August 2010)

MOLLYA said:



			: Was thinking I'd follow on foot first to see how it all works and maybe ask some questions, or would that be similarly annoying? 

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The footies will look after you until you feel happy about bringing ned along. We are always willing to impart our knowledge, and in many cases you will struggle to shut us up once we hit our stride on our favourite topic of hunting. 

I was a recent convert to the hunting field and yes I admit I did ask some daft questions, but someone always patiently explained why something was happening. I'm still learning now as I visit other packs in new terrain. I made my mounted debut last season and everyone was friendly and looked after me. 

Remember the proverb -  stupid girl who not ask questions stays stupid...!


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## noland (27 August 2010)

Apologies for not having read all 20 pages but just a warning to choose wisely which pack you go with, I have encountered rudeness and arrogance with a certain pack North of the M4 (you know who you are).


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## billyslad (27 August 2010)

I  have and continue to hunt with a friendly pack north of the M4 who would welcome anyone with an interest in the future of hunting


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## Judgemental (27 August 2010)

Noland and Billyslad, I am singularly unimpressed by your above comments.

When I started this thread it was intended as a constructive means of highlighting some of the issues in a responsible manner. How they could be remedied.

It was not under any circumstances intended to intimate or provide veiled inuendo as to who or what may be 'falling down at fences'

I am sure everyobdy who has contributed will agree that everything has been said in a light hearted measured manner.

Your comments, in my opinion are sailing close to the wind of The Fat Controller having to intervene.

If you want to say something make suggestions as to how any perceived issues can be addressed?

Incidently Mr Fat Controller, I hope you recognise some 'self regulation' a subject featured earlier in the thread.


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## Simsar (27 August 2010)

That's Jm talking dirty! Don't ya know.  Well and truly told.


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## Simsar (27 August 2010)

Paddydou said:



			JM, I am mearly your humble fan however, pressing flesh and the romance of the countryside could get many a hunt into serious trouble! 

Isn't this what the introduction days are supposed to be about?

I would also reccomend offering "educational visits" to schools both urban and rural. See if you can club together so some the local farmers and do a "One day does all" day where they learn about hunting, farming, shooting, fishing, forestry etc and how it all neatly slots together.
		
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Paddyd ditto ^^^^^^^^^^^again perfect, now we shall start a PD fanclub. x


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## Simsar (27 August 2010)

combat_claire said:



			The footies will look after you until you feel happy about bringing ned along. We are always willing to impart our knowledge, and in many cases you will struggle to shut us up once we hit our stride on our favourite topic of hunting. 

I was a recent convert to the hunting field and yes I admit I did ask some daft questions, but someone always patiently explained why something was happening. I'm still learning now as I visit other packs in new terrain. I made my mounted debut last season and everyone was friendly and looked after me. 

Remember the proverb -  stupid girl who not ask questions stays stupid...!
		
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See this is it, how do we get the ball rolling on these ideas???? Fab!


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## Judgemental (27 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			That's Jm talking dirty! Don't ya know.  Well and truly told.
		
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LOL

THIS IS SUCH A JOLLY THREAD WITH JOLLY PEOPLE ALL BEING JOLLY JOLLY
What do you think of my colour co-ordination


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## Simsar (28 August 2010)

Its shite! But ok if your a girl JM.

Pm me and tell me.


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## Simsar (28 August 2010)

Thanks for the PM!  So no more pink unless matches your eyes.  Anyway back to the post.


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## Judgemental (30 August 2010)

I suppose what these threads do do and of course there was no Internet in the 70's, 80's and 90's. It flushes out the weaknesses and the *antediluvian* thinking still in the minds of too many who hunt!


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## rosie fronfelen (30 August 2010)

antediluvian? not quite dear judge- we arent that ancient in our thinking- no matter of lack of internet in the last few decades, perhaps it isnt all good, this cyber stuff!!


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## Judgemental (30 August 2010)

So this thread has topped 5000 views and 200 replies. There must be an issue that has been touched upon, to say the least?

Antediluvian, just love that word! Rosie my view of those who are antediluvian are those who cannot seem to grasp the fact there is a coalition government in power and as such you never quite know who your friends are in politics.  

It is The Coalition that will probably eventually decide the framework of hunting for the foreseeable future. 

One minute one thinks the Cons are your friends and the next they need to do a deal with the LibDems, to get some legislation through the House of Commons. Then like a rabbit out of a hat, they the Cons don't want to know you. Bear in mind certain Lab lads have been taken into the coalition because of their expertise in certain matters - everyone of them voted for the Hunting Act 2004!

Yes, I like being an enigma and you will note that I have appeared in this forum almost contemporaneously (another of my favourite words) with the Coalition government - why, because I believe I understand these things and I care for hunting, the countryside and the people. Many of whom, as yet, cannot get their heads around the new arrangements.


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## Simsar (30 August 2010)

Jm not reading all the bunf again but you can't trust anyone in politics.  Hunting will never be back as we knew it, don't care what big words everyone uses, its not coming back.


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## rosie fronfelen (30 August 2010)

well, hunting hasnt changed here, i dont give a rats arse about the rest of the country and their hunting problems as i can do nothing about them-its usually at management level that problems arise anyway.judgemental, antediluvian as i said before, is not a word to use on die-hard hunters who have tradition in their bones and find it hard to modernize- you should be a politician, David Cameron has hunted before, Clegg is a nonentity, and we also CARE FOR HUNTING!!!


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## Judgemental (30 August 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			well, hunting hasnt changed here, i dont give a rats arse about the rest of the country and their hunting problems as i can do nothing about them-its usually at management level that problems arise anyway.judgemental, antediluvian as i said before, is not a word to use on die-hard hunters who have tradition in their bones and find it hard to modernize- you should be a politician, David Cameron has hunted before, Clegg is a nonentity, and we also CARE FOR HUNTING!!!
		
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Now Rosie, hold hard a moment. There you have hit the nail on the head.

1. If there is self-regulation the MFHA will, even in the Welsh Hills, be fairly strict when it comes to operational performance. Step out of line and your peers and co-hunters will jump on one with force.

2. But secondly and more importantly Mr Clegg and Mr Cameron. The latter is understood and understands what it is all about. But he Mr Cameron cannot do anything without the co-operation of Mr Clegg, so don't write him off as a nonentity. 

That is fundamental to the point I have been making concerning the views of a coalition government.   

I use the word antediluvian, when folk cannot or will not, understand the new concept of government and the changes that it will  bring.

What happens in the rest of the country will have a knock-on effect even in the Welsh Hills, trust me it will.


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## rosie fronfelen (30 August 2010)

they can try, but you will never finish what is basically pest control. so tell me.mister politician, what are Cleggs points of view on hunting, hes not givenan opinion on anything yet!! i realise(as i am neither naive or twp) that there will be licences and rediculous regulations. do you really think that wehave not thought all this through, even if we are just mere mortals scraping a living atop of mountains- we do go down to civilisation once in a while!!


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## Judgemental (30 August 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			they can try, but you will never finish what is basically pest control. so tell me.mister politician, what are Cleggs points of view on hunting, hes not givenan opinion on anything yet!! i realise(as i am neither naive or twp) that there will be licences and rediculous regulations. do you really think that wehave not thought all this through, even if we are just mere mortals scraping a living atop of mountains- we do go down to civilisation once in a while!!
		
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LOL. You give the impression that what happens in Wales where hunting is concerned does not necessarily conform to that practiced in the rest of England and Wales or the protocols of the hunting world do not apply.

Mr Clegg's views are extremely important - he is an integral part of the Coalition Government.

The last opinion I saw from him reported in the media on the subject of hunting, that the whole subject should left as it is - therefore it appears he is not persuaded a repeal is reasonable.   

As for your micro world in the Welsh Hills as I have said before, it is better to look at the big picture nationwide.

By the way as I see it, everybody in this forum is most courteous to everybody else. I am not 'Mister Politician'


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## rosie fronfelen (30 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			LOL. You give the impression that what happens in Wales where hunting is concerned does not necessarily conform to that practiced in the rest of England and Wales.

Mr Clegg's views are extremely important - he is an integral part of the Coalition Government.

The last opinion I saw from him reported in the media on the subject of hunting that the whole subject should left as it is - therefore it appears he is not persuaded a repeal is reasonable.   

As for your micro world in the Welsh Hills as I have said before, it is better to look at the big picture nationwide.
		
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showing your true colours now judgemental,you have proved what i always thought!! i do not take kindly to your references to hunting in Wales, try READING my posts more thoroughly,do you honestly think we are welsh hicks up in the hillside and not understanding what goes on in England and parliament? do not preach to me about the government and do not preach to me about how wales should tackle the hunting debate.


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## rosie fronfelen (30 August 2010)

----perhaps a repeal is not the way foreward, have you thought of that?


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## JanetGeorge (30 August 2010)

Judgemental said:



			One minute one thinks the Cons are your friends and the next they need to do a deal with the LibDems, to get some legislation through the House of Commons. Then like a rabbit out of a hat, they the Cons don't want to know you.
		
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I have to disagree with you there!  The Conservtives KNOW that the Coalition won't last forever -hell, none of them want it too!  And at the next election, the Conservatives will be seeking a stand-alone majority-and will NEED their friends.  They WILL deliver when they can!  And no - I'm not being naive-they need us at LEAST as much as we need them!


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## Paddydou (31 August 2010)

Simsar said:



			Paddyd ditto ^^^^^^^^^^^again perfect, now we shall start a PD fanclub. x
		
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Its so hard being right ALL the time 

Don't worry about my fan club I think we should put all our efforts into the JM one!

As JM is not allowed to wear pink (with the exception of special occasions) does that give us the heads up to flirt outragously with our idol?

Back to topic though. It is a serious problem not just for hunts but for the rural community. Urban dwellers seem to have the picturesque veiw that all is fine and dandy in the countryside and its all cute foxes, furry bunnies and sunny afternoon walks. 

I see some of the local farmers in the village shop most mornings. We have a little competition "Who has had the best complaint recently". Some of them include, poo on the roads (please note very small amounts a dog would produce more), smells from animals or the trailers transporting the muck, a stack of straw bales looking like a block of flats, dust on cars driving past the combines harvesting in the fields next to the road... Would you care for me to continue? They range from the sublime to the ridiculous!

Hunting doesn't stand a chance while a great percentage of our population has no idea what it is, what it does and why it is done. For heavens sake we are taking about people who have no idea that the stuff in the fields produces their weetabix, that carrots are grown in the ground and have mud on them prior to being washed, that berries come from bushes and not the frozen section. 

Next bit - I am disapointed that some deem it nessessary to use this forum to voice personal opinions about personal disputes that have sadly caused problems for a very limited number of hunts. It is not "cricket" and very childish behaviour. It also frightens me. After all why do the LACS need to bother when we have internal sqabbling that could destroy us anyway? I am glad that some have a sense of humour about it and have been able to enlighten us in imaginative ways but the people directly involved really need to sort it out with each other, like grown ups, rather than argue over the internet. I repeat North or South of the M4 there are plenty of well run, happy hunts who are very welcoming, friendly and full of charming folk. it would be nice if we could all cut out the North/ South thing and remember that we are all part of one big community who basically want the same things.

Sorry JM, you know I will back you to the hilt, but Rosie does have a point. Perhaps "repeal" is not the way forward, perhaps a revision is... If much thought and deliberation is put into it I am sure that amendments to the existing law could be made (all those daft bits scraped etc) so that politicans can keep face while trying to deal with the other pressing issues that this country has. Think back door rather than barging in the front. Its how slavery in this country ended.


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## combat_claire (31 August 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			----perhaps a repeal is not the way foreward, have you thought of that?
		
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I have said it before and I don't mind saying it again. Think of the pressure that hunt staff and masters are under to comply with the law. I am a very amateur whipper-in to a foot pack, but I still have to wonder whether I might be under surveillance and subjected to a spurious court case like so many others have before me. I am convinced that all packs that I go out with or occasionally visit are doing their utmost to comply with the law and yet 2 of them have already been dragged through the courts before being found innocent on appeal or having the case thrown out. This is not a comfortable situation to be in and we need repeal as soon as possible. 

We also have to think of packs that may not be in as fortunate positions as others. Oakash will be able to explain this in greater detail - but as I understand it the Staghound packs have faced the greatest struggle of all packs to remain within the law. There are many who say it isn't the same despite these efforts and who won't visit or subscribe which puts added pressure on their finances. 

So while a status quo might be a nice option for those of you whose involvement with the pack remains only as a follower or who are lucky enough to have enough exemptions to allow a passable imitation of pre-ban hunting there are others who desperately need repeal and will be doing everything in our power to ensure we can achieve this after the next election.


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## Paddydou (31 August 2010)

combat_claire said:



			So while a status quo might be a nice option for those of you whose involvement with the pack remains only as a follower or who are lucky enough to have enough exemptions to allow a passable imitation of pre-ban hunting there are others who desperately need repeal and will be doing everything in our power to ensure we can achieve this after the next election.
		
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So if the government are damned if they do and damned if they don't why not take a look at the existing act and amend the bits that clearly are not working, are unenforcable and have no "legal" solid ground. 

That way the government get brownie points for keeping the act, brownie points for amending the act and everyone can get back to work.

Ok so there will not be very much of the act left but omlettes and eggs...


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## combat_claire (31 August 2010)

There is no room for half measures, the Act needs repealing and replacing with the Hunting Regulatory Authority. As far as I can see it there aren't any bits of the Act that are working and should be retained. 

The Hunting Act was a bodged job to allow some country sports such as falconry and shooting over dogs to be retained while getting at those evil hunting types. It should go as soon as we have a working majority to secure absolute repeal. The last thing we need is another messy and ambiguous piece of amended legislation.


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## Paddydou (31 August 2010)

combat_claire said:



			The Hunting Act was a bodged job to allow some country sports such as falconry and shooting over dogs to be retained while getting at those evil hunting types.
		
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Are those the ones who go the church each Sunday?


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## JanetGeorge (31 August 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			well, hunting hasnt changed here, i dont give a rats arse about the rest of the country and their hunting problems as i can do nothing about them-its usually at management level that problems arise anyway.
		
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IF you cared about hunting and had a functioning brain cell you would realise that saying things like 'hunting hasn't changed here' PROVES you don't give a rat's a*se about the rest of the country.

The vast majority of hunts are trying their hardest to continue WITHIN the law.  Many are spied on constantly and any infringement of the law is likely to see huntsmen and whipper-ins arrested and charged!  And - of course - apart from the worry of a court action, that means even MORE harrassment, death threats, etc. etc. for decent men trying to do their jobs well under difficult circumstances!

As for your own hunt, it wouldn't be at all hard for Mr. H. to work out which one it is from your various posts. He will then turn up - looking and acting more like a genuine hunt supporter than MOST genuine hunt supporters!  WITH his hidden camera and his ability to be in the right place at the right time (for him!)  Your huntsman will really appreciate you when he is arrested and charged!


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## rosie fronfelen (31 August 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			IF you cared about hunting and had a functioning brain cell you would realise that saying things like 'hunting hasn't changed here' PROVES you don't give a rat's a*se about the rest of the country.

The vast majority of hunts are trying their hardest to continue WITHIN the law.  Many are spied on constantly and any infringement of the law is likely to see huntsmen and whipper-ins arrested and charged!  And - of course - apart from the worry of a court action, that means even MORE harrassment, death threats, etc. etc. for decent men trying to do their jobs well under difficult circumstances!

As for your own hunt, it wouldn't be at all hard for Mr. H. to work out which one it is from your various posts. He will then turn up - looking and acting more like a genuine hunt supporter than MOST genuine hunt supporters!  WITH his hidden camera and his ability to be in the right place at the right time (for him!)  Your huntsman will really appreciate you when he is arrested and charged!
		
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you, mrs george, know nothing about our hunt, of course we hunt within the law but theres nothing stopping the lamping at lambing time, which goes on wherever their are sheep.i  would like to tell you how we work the hills but youare determined to be the hierarchyso i wont give you the pleasure.who is Mr.H-please have the decency to reveal his whole name,it is of no consequence if you arent brave enough. So, with that, i think there is nothing more to say between us.


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## JanetGeorge (1 September 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			you, mrs george, know nothing about our hunt, of course we hunt within the law but theres nothing stopping the lamping at lambing time, which goes on wherever their are sheep.i  would like to tell you how we work the hills but youare determined to be the hierarchyso i wont give you the pleasure.who is Mr.H-please have the decency to reveal his whole name,it is of no consequence if you arent brave enough. So, with that, i think there is nothing more to say between us.
		
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But you CLAIM nothing has changed.  Lambing calls have changed, flushing foxes to guns has changed -  I am well aware of how hill packs used to carry out fox control for the farmers and it would HAVE to change to stay within the law.  Lamping has nothing to do with the Hunting Act.  I do not wnt to be 'hierarchy' - I'd just like to see some sensible discussion - although it obviously won't be with you.  Mr. H. is a very well-known anti who has spent more than the last 20 years (at least) infiltrating hunts with a hidden video camera (remember the 'Quorn incident' of 1991, the 'horse on the gate' case of ... mmm 1994 I think - dozens more occasions with varying consequences.) Not naming him has nothing to do with decency - I just won't feed his ego when he Googles his name!


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## Alec Swan (1 September 2010)

rosiefronfelen said:



			i dont give a rats arse about the rest of the country and their hunting problems as i can do nothing about them-
		
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rosiefronfelen,

Such comments will be insulting to those who work towards the greater good,  and will do little to help.  May I point out that without the help of others,  you wouldn't be hunting?

Alec.


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## combat_claire (1 September 2010)

Alec Swan said:



			rosiefronfelen,

Such comments will be insulting to those who work towards the greater good,  and will do little to help.  May I point out that without the help of others,  you wouldn't be hunting?

Alec.
		
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Well said Mr. Swan. About time that a large chunk of hunting people started looking at the bigger picture rather than taking an 'I'm alright Jack' attitude to life.


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## Paddydou (1 September 2010)

combat_claire said:



			Well said Mr. Swan. About time that a large chunk of hunting people started looking at the bigger picture rather than taking an 'I'm alright Jack' attitude to life.
		
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They also need the support of non hunting communities. An Olympic swimmer is supported not just by swimming fanatics but also by people who wish them well. The concept is the same here.

Its all very good and well to say we stand together as less than 1% of the population and this is what we want... Would it not be far better and have greater impact if the 99% of the population who have no idea knew what went on, why and understood that it is not a bunch of balding, fat, upper class pompus prats gwafffing and laughing as a terribly cute and cuddly fox is torn to shreds very s l o w l y... as the LACS propoganda would suggest? Like it or not this IS what is being projected into our schools, libraries, newspapers... Like it or not this IS the image that many urban and misundersanding rural folk that have emigrated from the city sprawl see!

Its such a shame that the rural populations still have no idea of the concept of "word of mouth marketing" and how "image" can make or break just about anything these days. 

Rosie - imagine if you will for a moment. Hunting faces stricter laws, it becomes harder to hunt, more and more are prosecuted... from the large hunts the movement to cull it would soon hit your beloved hills! There is no point in having an "I'm ok sod the rest of 'em" attitude because, as in any society, wether you like it or not, what affects one affects us all. Where one of us stands we must all stand. Start shouting from your hill - you have a voice, educate those ramblers to come across your land!


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## Paddydou (1 September 2010)

Judgemental said:



			I have my hat in the air and the master is blowing Gone Away - 

*3001 Views and 125 comments*

Going back over the forum I am having difficulty in topping that for any thread.
		
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JM - I am so sorry to report that there is a thread somewhere called "Soap box". It is called "the last word" posters compete to be the last... 

Unless all of us flirt outragously with you for the next 8 months this thread has no hope of topping that... Having said I do think that you are still the largest in the Hunting secotion and quite an achiement!


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## Judgemental (1 September 2010)

Paddydou said:



			JM - I am so sorry to report that there is a thread somewhere called "Soap box". It is called "the last word" posters compete to be the last... 

Unless all of us flirt outragously with you for the next 8 months this thread has no hope of topping that... Having said I do think that you are still the largest in the Hunting secotion and quite an achiement!
		
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Paddydou do flirt a much as you wish and I hope to reciprocate - after all we are kindred spirits!

By the way it's now 5525 views and 222 posts.


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## Paddydou (1 September 2010)

Judgemental said:



			Paddydou do flirt a much as you wish and I hope to reciprocate - after all we are kindred spirits!

By the way it's now 5525 views and 222 posts.
		
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Size isn't everything you know! 

You have been quite impressive enough already... your fan club proves it!


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## Simsar (1 September 2010)

Flirting I think not!


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## Paddydou (3 September 2010)

Simsar said:



Flirting I think not!

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Dont be such a spoil sport! 

Have we all stopped squabbling about the Hills now and come up with any more constructive comments on how to projecta much healthier veiw of hunting within the wider community to which we all belong?


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## combat_claire (3 September 2010)

As well as the obvious things of thanking people who have slowed down when they have met members of the mounted field, being polite to those who open the gates and general courtesy there is plenty that can be done by ordinary members of the hunt. 

Get involved with your hunt supporters' club and help at events that are designed to boost PR, this might be a local show run by the hunt or just supporting one that is being run locally. I regularly help take hounds to country shows in East Anglia. Some of you may even have seen me running around the ring in my fetching blue breeks. The people who come and meet our hounds will never have been hunting, they probably don't even regularly visit the countryside and it is our job to convey that we are normal people who will welcome anyone to follow. Snotty people muttering that they are 'hinds not dawgs' will not help our cause. 

Another way you can help is by getting active with your local CA committee - they organise a lot of the tradestands at events locally and regionally. I am off to Burghley tomorrow with a team of young and enthusiastic volunteers to spend the day stickering kids and helping out up at the hound pens on the cross country course. 

You may think you can only do a little bit, but it is far from insignificant in winning hearts and minds.


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## Paddydou (3 September 2010)

combat_claire said:



			You may think you can only do a little bit, but it is far from insignificant in winning hearts and minds.
		
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Do we have an "encore, here here, loud aplause" button/ smiley thing?


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## Alec Swan (3 September 2010)

If the hunting world is to regain lost ground,  from the point of view of the voting public,  then the welcoming process needs to be expanded.

Currently,  we talk amongst ourselves,  we're broadly in agreement,  but what do we actually achieve?  Sod all,  is the answer.  The general voting public,  those who read the tripe dished out by the well organised antis,  see hunting as an elitist sport.  Geographically,  we are removed from them,  and because of the general lack of public understanding,  we're oceans apart.  The huge,  and expanding, urban sprawl knows little of our world.  Particularly those packs which are near to urban areas need to welcome in the general public.

Hound shows,  for instance.  Why not publicise them and offer a welcome to those of an enquiring mind?  Whilst it would make little sense to offer puppies for walking to those who live on a housing estate,  there has to be some middle ground,  surely.

There are far, far more people who hunt,  than there are those who are active members of the LACS.  How come the LACS have a louder public voice?  Field Sports are surely one of the greatest class levellers,  but,  trust me on this one,  that is not the public perception.  From the view point of Joe Bloggs who lives and works in an urban environment,  we may just as well live on the moon.

EDUCATION is what's needed,  and not just those children who live a streeted existence,  but their parents too.  That's what I think.  Parliamentary pressure will NOT be enough.

Alec.

ETS, combat_claire,  I've only just read your post,  and before I offered my thoughts.  As one,  I would have thought. a


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## Simsar (3 September 2010)

Can i just say on Open/Boxing day meets they come from far and wide to see the exhibition, so where do they all go the rest of the year??  Why do hunts not make a big deal on these days to keep them coming so to speak.  Rather than comments like who is that and what do they look like!


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## combat_claire (6 September 2010)

As a case in point I joined young volunteers from our pack up at Burghley horse trials on Saturday supporting the hunt staff who had brought hounds along to meet the kids. We were kept busy opening the gates, stickering children and answering questions. Some kids had to be physically parted from the hounds so that their parents could continue round the cross country course. If only one or two of these families left with an altered perception of hunting then it will have been 7 hours well spent.


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## EAST KENT (6 September 2010)

JanetGeorge said:



			But you CLAIM nothing has changed.  Lambing calls have changed, flushing foxes to guns has changed -  I am well aware of how hill packs used to carry out fox control for the farmers and it would HAVE to change to stay within the law.  Lamping has nothing to do with the Hunting Act.  I do not wnt to be 'hierarchy' - I'd just like to see some sensible discussion - although it obviously won't be with you.  Mr. H. is a very well-known anti who has spent more than the last 20 years (at least) infiltrating hunts with a hidden video camera (remember the 'Quorn incident' of 1991, the 'horse on the gate' case of ... mmm 1994 I think - dozens more occasions with varying consequences.) Not naming him has nothing to do with decency - I just won't feed his ego when he Googles his name!
		
Click to expand...

OH please do tell me WHO Mr H is..here I be just sqirming with curiosity..a photo maybe;goodness it might even get ME out hunting again ..not the bloody duster but Mr H.


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## JanetGeorge (6 September 2010)

EAST KENT said:



			OH please do tell me WHO Mr H is..here I be just sqirming with curiosity..a photo maybe;goodness it might even get ME out hunting again ..not the bloody duster but Mr H.

Click to expand...

There's  clue in the Countryside Alliance blog http://www.countryside-alliance.org.uk/blog/monday-quote-half-cocked-grave-digging/  Then Google the name and you'll learn a lot more!


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## EAST KENT (8 September 2010)

Woohoo!! Good old Charlie listened..in Folkestone he jumped into a bedroom and killed a kitten...owner says "bring back hunting". Carry on your par excellence PR Charlie


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## Paddydou (9 September 2010)

Its over crowding. There are far too many foxes in a small (for them) area. 

Animals, like people get agressive when confinded and squashed together... 

Its basic common sense! I think we will be seeing more and more stories like this and the one where the two young girls were attacked until the people who control foxes are allowed to do their job properly again.


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