# Dog bit me - my fault - then I kicked it - need (much) better strategy



## [148596] (20 October 2020)

Posting under a different name due to, well, obvious failures in subject line.

Dog is a rescue. We've tackled 
* poop training - it had been shut inside and punished for indoor pooping as would hold on until night time. This has now been tackled by spending sometimes literally the whole day outside walking until dog _had_ to go and then praising like mad & treating. Also praising and treating Other Dog for going (much to bemusement of Other Dog). Crating overnight was initially a horrendous mess in the morning but now has the desired effect. Slow progress, started off only going in the specific spots where it had been praised before, but now (almost) accident free
* jumping up - I asked for a sit before exciting things happen - the sit is now mostly not required but reinstated for a day or so if any jumping happens
* mouthing - plenty of toys offered, none of any interest, so this has been tackled by simply taking all hands etc away immediately and being feirce with strangers who 'don't mind' (Dog is small and very cute/affectionate) about doing the same - It's my dog, I _do_ mind

However I've never trusted this one's bite inhibition. So, if there an ailment to treat or similar (Dog has poor skin) Dog is muzzled.

So, anyway, Dog found a bone in a place where I wasn't expecting one to be. 'Drop' is usually effective but wasn't. Bone was huge compared to Dog and trailing on floor. So I stupidly stood on it and bent down to remove other end from Dog. Queue Dog dropping bone, biting hand and then picking bone back up again. In between the biting and the picking up again I kicked the dog. Not hard (which, whilst I don't want to do it, might have possibly been effective). So, worst of both worlds. Skin was broken and hand hurt like h*ll. So, there was also an (involuntary) 'oww' as well as a fierce 'no'.

Was in shock, (had had a rough day for other reasons - the dog walk was my calming reward!), didn't know what to do. Sanitised hand (thanks to C19 now always have sanitiser available). Then Dog dropped bone and Other Dog picked it up. Other Dog I trust completely so I opened mouth by putting fingers in like for putting bit in to a horse's mouth, removed bone and binned it.

Was still hurting when back home so Other Dog was allowed cuddles, Dog was banished to rest of house. This was becasue we both (or I anyway) needed a time out from Dog.

So, what are better ideas please? This was a blinking mess. I don't currently have funds for a trainer (see above about stressful day) and have never had a good recommendation in the area when I did have funds (I have literally gone up to anyone with an obviously well-trained animal in the park and asked when I wanted one!).


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## [148596] (20 October 2020)

Should have said -  That's the first time any dog of mine has bitten a person (or animal of any kind actually) so I have no experience of this or 'go to' response.


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## DressageCob (20 October 2020)

I don't see the benefit of banishing the dog later on, after the event. The dog won't know what the issue is at that point. To allow one dog to interact and be with you, and to ignore the other dog and not let it in the room because you needed a break and your hand hurt is not appropriate. Especially when after the event (your post suggests you travelled home and then continued the snubbing there). 

Obviously you know kicking isn't the right response, but I can understand why that happened. With my puppy when he went through the mouthy phase I would yelp then walk away. 
When I went through a food guarding phase with my previous dog I found the best option was to trade. I always kept a supply of fresh cooked chicken or sausage, which invariably was better than whatever had been stolen by the dog. I trade with my current puppy too. I'm not then competing for whatever "treat" they have stolen, I'm offering a trade up. 

In terms of properly responding to biting, I'm sure others will know more than I


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## CorvusCorax (20 October 2020)

How long have you had the dog? What is the rough type if you don't want to mention breed?

Dogs bite, horses kick, cats claw, electric fences shock..for every reaction there is a reaction.
Not big or clever of you but an instant response to pain. And dog bites fricking hurt. I don't know the dog well enough to say if this plus isolation was a good or bad reaction. And you obviously feel bad enough about it to post, so it's not as if you routinely play keepy-uppy with dogs.
But dogs routinely take 3-5 seconds to link behaviour to consequence so I'm guessing the isolation was for you and not for the dog.

Now you need to rebuild the relationship.

Essentially he had something and he was afraid he would lose it and he tried to stop that using the only tactic at his disposal. So the relationship isn't right. 
He needs to think either that when you take something, that is your right, everything belongs to you anyway, that's fine (which is easier to instill in a stable animal you've owned from puppyhood) or he must think that if you take something from him, he'll get something back/a swap/it's not the end of the world.

This will take many repetitions of adding food to an empty bowl, playing swapsy with two of the same item (so one hasn't got a higher value than the other) and he may be a candidate for Boot Camp, in that all his movements and actions are controlled by you until he gets a clearer picture of How Life Is. 

There are things you can do to mitigate it happening again. Approach him from the side...a head on confrontation can be seen as very threatening.
Use a short, light hand line with no loop on his collar so that you can remove him from conflict situations without sticking your hand to near his mouth.

It really does depend on the type of dog he is. There's a big difference between a dog who is scared and stressed and has learned that humans just take his stuff and hurt him (you don't know what may have happened in his background) or a dog like one of mine, who because I was a bit soft when he was younger, learned that if he did or didn't want to do something, he would put it up to me to try and get the result he wanted.

Do you like the dog? I know you're probably trying to stay vague and it is horrible to be bitten but it doesn't sound like there's much affection there.


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## [148596] (20 October 2020)

DressageCob said:



			I don't see the benefit of banishing the dog later on, after the event.
		
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There was no benefit. Except I didn't want to cuddle it and was feeling upset. I appreciate that was another failure.


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## Clodagh (20 October 2020)

Cc qualified to comment and I’m not, but don’t beat yourself up. The kick was an instant unthought response and I probably would have done the same. Snubbing dog, well sometimes we do just need time away from them.
Dogs move on really quickly, try to do the same.
Agree with CC do you actually like it? We had a border terrier dog who I hated and tbh it’s hard to build a relationship through a real level of dislike.


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## [148596] (20 October 2020)

CorvusCorax said:



			How long have you had the dog? What is the rough type if you don't want to mention breed?
		
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Three years or so - that's why it was such a surprise! 16lb fluff ball.



CorvusCorax said:



			But dogs routinely take 3-5 seconds to link behaviour to consequence so I'm guessing the isolation was for you and not for the dog.
		
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Absolutely.



CorvusCorax said:



			It really does depend on the type of dog he is. There's a big difference between a dog who is scared and stressed and has learned that humans just take his stuff and hurt him (you don't know what may have happened in his background) or a dog like one of mine, who because I was a bit soft when he was younger, learned that if he did or didn't want to do something, he would put it up to me to try and get the result he wanted.
		
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Honestly I suspect it is a bit of both. e.g. Dog not toilet trained but then punished for going.
Initially Dog was fed in a separate room from Other Dog. Now quickly got to a stage where they happily share a bowl (less washing up - yay!) and I can remove the bowl, e.g. to top it up, at any point - no issues at all.



CorvusCorax said:



			Do you like the dog? I know you're probably trying to stay vague and it is horrible to be bitten but it doesn't sound like there's much affection there.
		
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Oh, I'm really cross but with me, not Dog. Dog has been hard work but does the job was acquired for perfectly. Dog is also immensely valuable to other family members, including Other Dog. We wouldn't be happy without Dog.

Thank you for your other advice. I used to always carry treats on walks for the toilet training. Still have little bag for them attached to lead although it was empty at the time of incident. Swaps is a good idea and would be easy to implement. I'll have to practice it with high value food I think as Dog is already completely fine with normal food (and even regular treats) being removed/shared with Other Dog etc.


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## YorksG (20 October 2020)

We use tests as reward for all sorts of things, but not for handing over things that I want out of dog mouths, simply because of i want it back and don't have a treat to hand that's going to cause me issues! One of the labs is a terror for trying to run off with stuff, but she's ace at sitting, so I tell her to sit, she does and puts down forbidden item. I pick up item and praise like mad! She does often get a tear for sitting at other times,


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## [148596] (20 October 2020)

Clodagh said:



			Agree with CC do you actually like it? We had a border terrier dog who I hated and tbh it’s hard to build a relationship through a real level of dislike.
		
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It's not as immediately compatible with me as Other Dog but much 'cuter' so I do sometimes get annoyed with random people making a fuss of it more than they do of  Other Dog who would die for me. But it's actually fine as Other Dog isn't particularly interested in strangers where as Dog really likes the attention.

Since social distancing Dog has been a bit miserable about walks as getting less attention and off-lead scampering (Dog likes to sprint a little then flop; Other Dog likes to walk which is just easier for on-lead walks). Maybe Dog was so unexpectedly fierce over the bone as it was more of a highlight in less fun times for Dog in general.


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## [148596] (20 October 2020)

And I should say, credit to Dog - it's the first time we've had a 'drop' fail in years. Other Dog I have to shake upside down (not literally - but I will sometimes pick up for easier access to the mouth!) and prize mouth open to retrieve anything!


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## meleeka (20 October 2020)

I think it’s one of those things that can just happen.  Move on from it and the dog is likely to too.  I never give my dogs bones because one of them I couldn’t trust.  I know you didn’t actually give it to the dog, but a super high value thing like a bone isn’t something I want to compete with.  I think you can only keep practicing the leave it command and up the stakes by asking the dog to leave really good things eventually.
 My terrier doesn’t always leave small fluffy things when told, but I’ve found a firm
Voice  and pushing her witH my foot, rather than kicking, gets the result eventually.  She wouldn’t bite me over such a thing I don’t think, but I have a phobia about dead things so there’s not a chance Id take it from her.  I think you just need to be calm and patient and accept that dogs do sometimes bite in the heat of the moment without thinking.


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## CorvusCorax (20 October 2020)

PSA, if anyone needs to use feet on a dog in an emergency/to move it quickly/away from something dangerous, use the side of your foot, never the toe, that's how bruising/perforation/cracked ribs happen.


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## [148596] (20 October 2020)

Ok, so, I just tried this. Took two of my usual reward treats and broke one in half.

Placed half treat near Dog and said 'leave/drop it'. (Dog knows 'drop' means 'don't put in mouth' as well as 'put out of mouth' - we don't have separate words for them).

Dog looked confused (not something we normally practice tbh) but left the half treat after an attempt at sniffing.

Then lots of 'good dog' and I gave the whole treat.

We did it three times. (Then did the same with Other Dog to make it fair).

Feels like progress!

Also feels more like The Incident was a one-off. We have successful 'drops' a few times a week with bones found out on walks and now we can get them with treats too. Thank you all.


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## [148596] (20 October 2020)

YorksG said:



			We use tests as reward for all sorts of things, but not for handing over things that I want out of dog mouths, simply because of i want it back and don't have a treat to hand that's going to cause me issues!
		
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This makes sense. I've usually trained (I'm not experienced dog owner, but to the extent that I've trained) with treat + praise together initially, then praise + occasional treat, then mostly just praise once behaviour is established. Hence not having a treat to hand on the walk - I no longer need to treat for outdoor poops!


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## {97702} (20 October 2020)

No idea why everyone is being so nice to you quite frankly - I’d say the dog needs to be rehomed to someone has the first clue what they are doing what they are doing with a rescue and doesn’t think that kicking a dog when they are stupid enough to get themselves bitten is simply an ‘instinctive reaction’.  

I’ve been bitten once by one of my rescues in 20 years, it was my fault - I put her into the situation where I let it happen.  I didn’t have the slightest inclination to hit or kick her, it was MY FAULT.  

I don’t give a damn whether it suits you/your family/your lifestyle to keep the dog - if you act like that you shouldn’t have the dog IMO


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## [148596] (20 October 2020)

Levrier said:



			No idea why everyone is being so nice to you quite frankly
		
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Thank you for your candour.

Perhaps people have recognised that this was a one off incident which I've immediately taken steps to address. Or perhaps they read between the lines about the other things people (me) are dealing with in 2020. Or perhaps they just recognise that everyone is fallible. Everyone has certainly been nicer to me than I have felt towards me. And I recognise that.

I searched on here for previous threads on bites before posting. As far as I recall - and I could be mixing you up - your dogs came up as having sometimes taken chunks out of each other (sight-hound ears I think?) or been out of control chasing dear. Those are your failures (and not ones I share - I was very, perhaps over cautious due to being aware of my inexperience introducing dogs and they are uniformly great together). This is my failure (and not one you share). More than happy for you to have the moral high ground. Appreciate advice. Albeit I'm not intending to action yours immediately.


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## Tiddlypom (20 October 2020)

Give it a rest, Lev.


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## [148596] (20 October 2020)

meleeka said:



			a super high value thing like a bone isn’t something I want to compete with
		
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I think this is the thing. For whatever reason this bone was higher value, at that time, than any food or treat, or even other bone we've ever encountered. And I wasn't expecting that.

On the phobia of dead things... You should have seen me when Other Dog found human poop... Trying to use poop bags as gloves to get it out of the mouth!


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## {97702} (20 October 2020)

Tiddlypom said:



			Give it a rest, Lev.
		
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I said what I thought, I have no intention of saying any more so no need to get involved as usual TP - this being a forum I am entitled to post  my view regardless of whether you like it or not


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## Pearlsasinger (20 October 2020)

I once found myself in the position of having my hand in the mouth of a rehomed Rottweiler who had been trained to 'swap' with nothing to swap her prize for. That was awkward! So I would try to avoid training a dog to swap.


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## Quoth (20 October 2020)

You need to redifine the nature of your relationship.

I think CC's notion of boot camp is your best bet though this may not be easy if other family members fail to be consistent.


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## Karran (20 October 2020)

I'm prepared to be shouted down and told i'm a bad owner but I've been in that situation with Miss Collie (also with the toileting!) and yes. I've lashed out (once) in the heat of the moment in a way i'm not proud of and regret. I've also had to shut her away for my own sanity just to calm myself down, realising that I'd make the situation worse by escalating it and fighting her, before returning in a better frame of mind and being able to deal with it, without tears, losing my temper or causing the situation to worsen.
She resource guarded toys, food, her spot on the bed/sofas and her go-to was teeth first, no warning growl as she'd learnt that that got her, her own way. 
I don't have the experience that a lot of you had/have and have learnt the hard way how to deal with a reactive/guardy dog. It was a short, steep learning curve for me. I wasn't proud of my actions and researched how to deal with it better.

Now we only have issues with resource guarding of food which I've been dealing with using CC's methods above and I think you'd do a lot worse than to try that!


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## Goldenstar (20 October 2020)

CC ‘s post is a good one and one to study .
no ones perfect and you did fall below perfection today .
You know that the fact you post shows that .
We have a rescue we found her injured at the side of road she had been dumped with a dislocated hip .
The experience is so different from the carefully chosen Labrador puppies I am used to getting .
I don’t and never will trust her like I trust the ones I have had from puppies
You need to be an inspiring leader that’s what dog respect and respond to .
It’s a shame you got bitten but it’s a warning to be careful You need to be mindful with this dog.
Ignore the unkind poster you are not the first and you won’t be the last .


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## skinnydipper (20 October 2020)

OnceOnly said:



			Now quickly got to a stage where they happily share a bowl (less washing up - yay!) .
		
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I'm not going to comment on the resource guarding which has been covered, but this caught my eye.

I hope you don't mind a tip.  I would feed them using separate bowls.  It is easier to tell if one of the dogs has a reduced appetite which could be a sign of illness, not caused by an obvious intestinal upset.


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## MrsMozart (20 October 2020)

It was a one-off response. You've recognized it as such and are seeking help and understanding as to how to ensure it doesn't happen again.

I've only had to teach 'swap' with one of my dogs. It's one of the current Rotties. He's been treated exactly as his brother (littermates) but whilst I have no compunction whatsoever about taking anything from his brother, this one I'd not unless it was threatening his life.


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## [148596] (20 October 2020)

skinnydipper said:



			I would feed them using separate bowls.  It is easier to tell if one of the dogs has a reduced appetite which could be a sign of illness, not caused by an obvious intestinal upset.
		
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I completely understand. As it happens I watch them eat with a hot drink before bed becasue feeding them last thing has helped Dog manage not to poop overnight. If I wasn't doing that or spending so much time picking them up/cuddling on sofa etc I might not notice. Dog arrived flabby (hadn't had walks before, used to have to be carried as couldn't keep up with Other Dog) but now looks like a proper dog shape. So, I do monitor their eating and condition etc in other ways.

Will reply to everyone else tomorrow as tired now. Thanks all.


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## Pearlsasinger (20 October 2020)

OnceOnly said:



			I completely understand. As it happens I watch them eat with a hot drink before bed becasue feeding them last thing has helped Dog manage not to poop overnight. If I wasn't doing that or spending so much time picking them up/cuddling on sofa etc I might not notice. Dog arrived flabby (hadn't had walks before, used to have to be carried as couldn't keep up with Other Dog) but now looks like a proper dog shape. So, I do monitor their eating and condition etc in other ways.

Will reply to everyone else tomorrow as tired now. Thanks all.
		
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I know you say that the dogs share happily but I would want separate bowls. What if you need to mix medication with food for one of them? And I would be wary of causing a resource guarding issue, if one of them is a bit unsettled for some reason. It really isn't  hard to put 2 bowls down at the same time and is another opportunity to emphasise that your word is law. Ours are taught to finish their meal then sit and wait until they have all finished  when they can lick up one another's  crumbs if they so desire.


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## [148596] (20 October 2020)

Pearlsasinger said:



			What if you need to mix medication with food for one of them?
		
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In practice I feed medication by hand so I can be sure it doesn't get eaten around. But yes, I do have separate bowls if necessary for any reason!

For meat meals I separate them but for kibble they aren't that fussed and if one seems to be getting more than the other they'll move over on voice command. I do take the point about it being a useful opportunity to micromanage though.


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## Auslander (20 October 2020)

Levrier said:



			No idea why everyone is being so nice to you quite frankly - I’d say the dog needs to be rehomed to someone has the first clue what they are doing what they are doing with a rescue and doesn’t think that kicking a dog when they are stupid enough to get themselves bitten is simply an ‘instinctive reaction’. 

I’ve been bitten once by one of my rescues in 20 years, it was my fault - I put her into the situation where I let it happen.  I didn’t have the slightest inclination to hit or kick her, it was MY FAULT. 

I don’t give a damn whether it suits you/your family/your lifestyle to keep the dog - if you act like that you shouldn’t have the dog IMO
		
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Levrier said:



			I said what I thought, I have no intention of saying any more so no need to get involved as usual TP - this being a forum I am entitled to post  my view regardless of whether you like it or not
		
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Seriously! You're the first to get moany/flouncy when anyone says anything to you that you don't like. Maybe try being a bit kinder to a poster who has admitted from the outset that she didn't handle the situation well, and came here asking for help.


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## TheresaW (20 October 2020)

Levrier said:



			[Content removed]
		
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Wow!

I had a stressful time with my dogs this morning as well, but I didn’t choose to take it out on someone else today.


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## BBP (20 October 2020)

Levrier said:



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I don’t always like what you write or how you say things, but you’re obviously really upset right now, I’m guessing about Ace? I hope he’s ok and that you can find the funds to help him. I’m just posting to offer you a virtual hug as my gut tells me you need one. And the same to the original poster who clearly knows they did absolutely the wrong thing and feels horrible about it.


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## jenniehodges2001 (21 October 2020)

Clodagh said:



			Dogs move on really quickly, try to do the same.
		
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What is is Caesar says? 'Dogs live in the moment'.  It will be forgotten about ten mins later, don't beat yourself up.  Blimey I've smacked/directed my dog with my toe (not kicked as such) and I smack my horse and they have both lived to tell the tale.


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## Sandstone1 (21 October 2020)

Dogs do not forget bad treatment sadly.   Someone who lashes out at a animal should not really have one.  we all have bad days but you shouldnt take it out on a animal.  Get some help with training or rehome the dog.
Do not listen to Caeser Milan.  The mans a idiot.


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## skinnydipper (21 October 2020)

jenniehodges2001 said:



			What is is Caesar says? 'Dogs live in the moment'.  It will be forgotten about ten mins later, don't beat yourself up.  Blimey I've smacked/directed my dog with my toe (not kicked as such) and I smack my horse and they have both lived to tell the tale.
		
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I strongly disagree with everything in this post.


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## Sandstone1 (21 October 2020)

skinnydipper said:



			I strongly disagree with everything in this post.
		
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Me too,  Makes me so sad that people still think like this.


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## honetpot (21 October 2020)

Pearlsasinger said:



			I know you say that the dogs share happily but I would want separate bowls. What if you need to mix medication with food for one of them? And I would be wary of causing a resource guarding issue, if one of them is a bit unsettled for some reason. It really isn't  hard to put 2 bowls down at the same time and is another opportunity to emphasise that your word is law. Ours are taught to finish their meal then sit and wait until they have all finished  when they can lick up one another's  crumbs if they so desire.
		
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 I feed separately, and make the more controllable dog dominate, by feeding it first, then the other has to wait.


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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

How is Dog's demeanour after "the incident"? As you are obviously not routinely kicking your dogs around the place I would not worry too much that you are now likely to resort to daily beatings to get your point across. I didn't realise that we were now all supposed to not be using the old fashioned corporal route any more; I haven't had to smack a dog for years but wouldn't hesitate to do so if the situation warranted it, same as with a horse.


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## Sandstone1 (21 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			How is Dog's demeanour after "the incident"? As you are obviously not routinely kicking your dogs around the place I would not worry too much that you are now likely to resort to daily beatings to get your point across. I didn't realise that we were now all supposed to not be using the old fashioned corporal route any more; I haven't had to smack a dog for years but wouldn't hesitate to do so if the situation warranted it, same as with a horse.
		
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Its sad that people still resort to violence.


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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

Sandstone1 said:



			Its sad that people still resort to violence.
		
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Does a swift tap on the nose (or bum) really count as "violence"? Do you believe the same re horses? Beating the holy crap out of any animal isn't ever going to be advocated by anyone who knows how to train.


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## Bellasophia (21 October 2020)

Hang on...I. agreed with each and every paragraph of the posters laborious three years  with this dog and her attempts to remedy the problems..
Poster has worked extremely hard and followed every protocol that she could to get results...
UNTIL,, she stepped in and took a huge bone off an ex rescue dog..and got bitten..and  then she kicked  it...failures on each side..but, perfectly understandable....*and  so you move on*..no bones ,or prize toys left on the floor. next time use a broom stick to remove bone..
.......what I don’t think is fair is to use Board pack mentality to swoop on Levrier to nip at her heels for her comments and refer back to her own previous experiences with her  own dogs.( But totally unrelated posts to this scenario)
This smacks of bullying.( edit..did I really say smacks. Lol)
.We all have an opinion.I-love posting here for the freedom of expression I believe it gives ..I don’t believe in old grudges ,I do believe in open discussion, not sniping.


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## Sandstone1 (21 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			Does a swift tap on the nose (or bum) really count as "violence"? Do you believe the same re horses? Beating the holy crap out of any animal isn't ever going to be advocated by anyone who knows how to train.
		
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If you know how to train you should not need violence.  It depends what you mean by a "tap"  Yes I do believe the same with horse as a rule.


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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

Sandstone1 said:



			If you know how to train you should not need violence.  It depends what you mean by a "tap"  Yes I do believe the same with horse as a rule.
		
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By "tap" I mean a tap. Same thing with horses, it's not to cause pain - it's to get attention and focus. Sometimes it's to correct an unwanted action. If I got bitten while attempting to take food or a bone from a dog I would also place the blame at my own door, but I would still reprimand the dog for doing it, and quite firmly too.


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## skinnydipper (21 October 2020)

Sandstone1 said:



			If you know how to train you should not need violence.
		
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As Ian Dunbar famously said "you can't push a whale around".


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## Sandstone1 (21 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			By "tap" I mean a tap. Same thing with horses, it's not to cause pain - it's to get attention and focus. Sometimes it's to correct an unwanted action. If I got bitten while attempting to take food or a bone from a dog I would also place the blame at my own door, but I would still reprimand the dog for doing it, and quite firmly too.
		
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So you would punish the dog for your mistake?


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## skinnydipper (21 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			By "tap" I mean a tap. Same thing with horses, it's not to cause pain - it's to get attention and focus. Sometimes it's to correct an unwanted action. If I got bitten while attempting to take food or a bone from a dog I would also place the blame at my own door, but I would still reprimand the dog for doing it, and quite firmly too.
		
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The poster I disagreed with said she "smacked" her dog.  Not something I have ever done, tbh.


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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

Sandstone1 said:



			So you would punish the dog for your mistake?
		
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No, I would demonstrate that biting me, for any reason, is not allowed.


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## Pearlsasinger (21 October 2020)

honetpot said:



			I feed separately, and make the more controllable dog dominate, by feeding it first, then the other has to wait.
		
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Ours know the order in which they get their bowls,  Rotter first, then Labs at the same time. They all have separate bowls but eat near to each other. If there is a problem for some reason and the Lab bowls can't be put down at the same time, they know to wait because they trust that no other dog will be allowed to eat their food from the wrong dish. 

It would never occur to me to have weaned dogs sharing bowls. The dogs need to know that humans are in charge of the food. We regularly feed 'extra' dogs and have never had any problems doing so because they have all been trained to eat  from their own bowl in a mannerly way.  We have had up to 9 dogs all eating out of separate bowls and behaving themselves in our kitchen.


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## Bellasophia (21 October 2020)

_Let’s read again..._
Poster says...
_“Queue Dog dropping bone, biting hand and then picking bone back up again. In between the biting and the picking up again I kicked the dog. *Not hard* (which, whilst I don't want to do it, might have possibly been effective). So, worst of both worlds. Skin was broken and hand hurt like h*ll. So, there was also an (involuntary) 'oww' as well as a fierce 'no'.”_


sounds like the poster came off worse than the dog,has reflected that this isn’t the way to go.....
...this isn’t a case of violence towards an animal,but a gut reaction to being bitten.On reflection The poster realizes she’s left a bone on the floor that became a guarding resource for her rescue dog that reacted instinctively to guard the bone..
The way forward is probably to do training with teach. ...drop and leave ....then reward..etc..


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## skinnydipper (21 October 2020)

I had between 8 and 9 dogs for many years.  They were all trained to wait at their "spot" and to stay at that spot until all dogs had finished eating before checking out each others bowl.  This enabled all the dogs to relax and eat their food without being worried about someone (greedy lurcher Layla) eating it for them.

The original poster made an impulsive mistake when she tried to take a highly valued prize from the dog, I am sure she won't do it again.  She also knows that kicking the dog was wrong and was asking for help.


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## Tiddlypom (21 October 2020)

Bellasophia said:



			sounds like the poster came off worse than the dog,has reflected that this isn’t the way to go.....
		
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Yup, an instinctive but understandable reaction which the OP regrets. She has been brave enough to post a thread asking for advice on how to move forwards from this set back.

Some posters seem to think that she is now unfit to own any dog .


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## Sandstone1 (21 October 2020)

Anyone can make a mistake or react on the spur of the moment but hitting or kicking a dog is not going to teach it anything except to be afraid of you.  Dogs do not bite out of the blue or for no reason.  They give lots of warnings but we often just do not  read their body language.


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## jenniehodges2001 (21 October 2020)

Tiddlypom said:



			Yup, an instinctive but understandable reaction which the OP regrets. She has been brave enough to post a thread asking for advice on how to move forwards from this set back.

Some posters seem to think that she is now unfit to own any dog .
		
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And some posters would argue that the sky is purple with pink spots just for a rise.
She made a mistake, was brave/stupid enough to come on here and get slaughtered. Time to move on and help the poor OP instead of everyone slagging her off for the so called injustice she showered on her dog.  We all make mistakes, none of us are saints although evidently there are many on here that feel they should wear a halo.


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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

So, OP, how's your dog today? Is he showing any sign of being afraid of you? I've always reprimanded my dogs if they've needed it, sometimes with a tap, and none have ever been afraid, quite the opposite (I type with two on my knee and another at my feet).


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## skinnydipper (21 October 2020)

jenniehodges2001 said:



			And some posters would argue that the sky is purple with pink spots just for a rise.
		
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I would suggest that if you need to smack your animals then it is due to training failures and the fault lies with you.


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## smolmaus (21 October 2020)

skinnydipper said:



			I would suggest that if you need to smack your animals then it is due to training failures and the fault lies with you.
		
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Good of the OP to put that in the title of the thread so there is no confusion.


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## skinnydipper (21 October 2020)

smolmaus said:



			Good of the OP to put that in the title of the thread so there is no confusion.
		
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I was referring to the post by jenniehodges who said she smacks her dog and horse.

This is what I wrote about the the OP



skinnydipper said:



			The original poster made an impulsive mistake when she tried to take a highly valued prize from the dog, I am sure she won't do it again. She also knows that kicking the dog was wrong and was asking for help.
		
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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

skinnydipper said:



			I was referring to the post by jenniehodges who said she smacks her dog and horse.
		
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I also occasionally smack my dogs and horses, rarely, but as required: does that make me a bad trainer?


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## Sandstone1 (21 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			I also occasionally smack my dogs and horses, rarely, but as required: does that make me a bad trainer?
		
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Yes, it does in my opinion.


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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

Sandstone1 said:



			Yes, it does in my opinion.
		
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Oh, that's a shame, seeing as how they all seem to do rather well in life (and competitions).


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## skinnydipper (21 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			I also occasionally smack my dogs and horses, rarely, but as required: does that make me a bad trainer?
		
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I am an amateur, not a professional. (I only have experience of training my own dogs)

If a dog is not doing as I ask then I feel it is a failure on my part because I have not helped them to understand what it is that I am asking them to do.


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## Sandstone1 (21 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			Oh, that's a shame, seeing as how they all seem to do rather well in life (and competitions).
		
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I do not care what they do or do not do to be honest, a happy confident animal is my aim not a robotic circus animal.  That is just me though.


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## Cortez (21 October 2020)

Sandstone1 said:



			I do not care what they do or do not do to be honest, a happy confident animal is my aim not a robotic circus animal.  That is just me though.
		
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Oh good; you'd love my dogs and horses then.


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## DressageCob (21 October 2020)

Bellasophia said:



			Hang on...I. agreed with each and every paragraph of the posters laborious three years  with this dog and her attempts to remedy the problems..
Poster has worked extremely hard and followed every protocol that she could to get results...
UNTIL,, she stepped in and took a huge bone off an ex rescue dog..and got bitten..and  then she kicked  it...failures on each side..but, perfectly understandable....*and  so you move on*..no bones ,or prize toys left on the floor. next time use a broom stick to remove bone..
.......what I don’t think is fair is to use Board pack mentality to swoop on Levrier to nip at her heels for her comments and refer back to her own previous experiences with her  own dogs.( But totally unrelated posts to this scenario)
This smacks of bullying.( edit..did I really say smacks. Lol)
.We all have an opinion.I-love posting here for the freedom of expression I believe it gives ..I don’t believe in old grudges ,I do believe in open discussion, not sniping.
		
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I do agree with you, but I also think it was cruel and uncalled for to suggest that this poster should have her dogs taken off her, when she posted here as a safe place to try to learn from her mistake. I’m afraid I see that as bullying, particularly when what we are talking about is a small kick which wasn’t hard. 

Given the demands that the OP give up dog ownership, I’m not surprised people reminded the poster of her own shortcomings. We all make mistakes; if we all lost our dogs over it then the shelters would be full and all homes would be empty.

I think a little more empathy and humanity was needed all round.


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## YorksG (21 October 2020)

My late father used to walk five labs through the village, 2 on one side 3 on the other, with none of them on leads, they all sat at the kerb and crossed the road on command. They were also happy, joyous dogs, with plenty of personality, who adored Dad. Dad did not tolerate badly behaved dogs, food stealing and not dropping an item were high on his list of not happening! He would smack a dog for those trespasses, not hard, but they knew it was not acceptable. I have to say if one of them had ever bitten him, the wrath of God would have landed on them! 
The bitch who we bred from ruled the pack and was not above grabbing the younger ones by the scruff and putting them in their place.  I don't think anyone is advocating battering dogs but dogs and children thrive when there are boundaries to live within.


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## Goldenstar (21 October 2020)

I learnt more about being a leader from my Dads bitches and my mares than anyone else .


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## Bellasophia (21 October 2020)

Dressage cob..
my comment was addressed to the fact many of you round up on one poster..that is bullying.
regarding   the original post, my replies are clear that a slap is just that,given in the heat of the moment..I doubt the person will do it again she feels so badly about it.


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## Tiddlypom (21 October 2020)

Many posters responded to one poster’s post. That is not bullying.

The tone of that post was completely uncalled for. We were told later that the poster had had a rough day, but still.


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## Goldenstar (21 October 2020)

Well some people are allowed a rough day others are not .


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## TPO (21 October 2020)

OP was clearly having the original bad day given post title and content. 

They were clearly remorseful and beating themselves up. Theres no need to kick someone already down on themselves enough to have made a new user name and berate their own actions. They asked for help how to fix the training issue that had arisen; nothing else needed to be commented on. 

One incident in three years with a rescue dog who had/has issues isnt bad going. 

I hope OP is feeling a bit better and has some new tools in their box to do the required training with their (clearly loved and cared for) Dog.


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## skinnydipper (21 October 2020)

skinnydipper said:



			I am an amateur, not a professional. (I only have experience of training my own dogs)

If a dog is not doing as I ask then I feel it is a failure on my part because I have not helped them to understand what it is that I am asking them to do.
		
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I was thinking this evening and remembered Mrs Ransome.

I have never been brilliant at maths.  At school, when I was about 8, we were doing "sums" one day and I can't remember what it was but I got it wrong.  I was called to the front of the class and the teacher - Mrs Ransome - slapped the back of my legs.  I was humiliated, it didn't help me understand where I was going wrong or look forward to her lessons.

Mrs Brown, on the other hand, was patient and generous with praise.  I enjoyed her lessons and worked hard to please her.

I like to train like Mrs Brown not Mrs Ransome.

ETA.  I am not sure if they are still in use in schools but Mrs R sat on a tubular metal chair with canvas seat.  I wasn't at all sorry when she fell through the seat one day.


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## {97702} (22 October 2020)

BBP said:



			I don’t always like what you write or how you say things, but you’re obviously really upset right now, I’m guessing about Ace? I hope he’s ok and that you can find the funds to help him. I’m just posting to offer you a virtual hug as my gut tells me you need one. And the same to the original poster who clearly knows they did absolutely the wrong thing and feels horrible about it.
		
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Just wanted to say thanks for this BBP - I am still very upset and angry with my vets for not treating Ace properly, and I will be submitting a formal complaint to them.  

I was wondering why I felt so rubbish and desperate on Tuesday evening but all became clearer when I woke up on Wednesday with a persistent cough, muscle ache, going hot and cold, nausea etc - currently waiting for the outcome of my Covid-19 test.  It’s probably just a cold 😳


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## BBP (22 October 2020)

Levrier said:



			Just wanted to say thanks for this BBP - I am still very upset and angry with my vets for not treating Ace properly, and I will be submitting a formal complaint to them.  

I was wondering why I felt so rubbish and desperate on Tuesday evening but all became clearer when I woke up on Wednesday with a persistent cough, muscle ache, going hot and cold, nausea etc - currently waiting for the outcome of my Covid-19 test.  It’s probably just a cold 😳
		
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Fingers crossed for you that it isn’t Covid or Flu, but sounds horrid anyway. Hope you feel better soon.


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## jenniehodges2001 (22 October 2020)

I was smacked as a child.  

It never did me any harm.  You have to set boundaries as far an animals are concerned.
Two scenarios.

1.  The dog raided the cupboard this morning, pulled out some dog biscuits which even she won't normally eat, and ate a number of them.  She did not get reprimanded because she is on steroids and is incredibly hungry and it is totally out of character for her to do such a thing.

2. However, had she ran over to a child or dog in the park and nipped at either for know reason when she knows better then we would have possibly smacked her. When I say smacked I mean a short tap and a gruff 'NO!'.

I was smacked as a child at the back of my knee when I misbehaved.  But maybe that is why I frequently go round punching the **** out of anything that moves and have been locked in jail numerous times for GBH and murder


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## jenniehodges2001 (22 October 2020)

Oh and I probably smack my horse once, maybe twice a year. He is a happy, well rounded and kind individual but he still needs to be set boundaries and told.  And if you think that tapping a horse on the shoulder is going to 'hurt it' well it probably in all likelihood won't even feel it tbh.

Whereas I know of another livery on our little yard whose pony walks all over him, threatens to bite or kick anything that goes without 10 foot of it, spends all day kicking the door and is a totally miserable horse that won't stand still for more than a couple of minutes without scraping its foot constantly on the floor.  The owner, a man of enough years to know better says 'oh you naughty boy' or tells the person who nearly needed a face transplant 'oh he won't hurt you' .  He wouldn't dream of smacking it (probably because said horse would floor him)  and he thinks that his method of nicey, nicey fluffy cloud thinking is best.....


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## skinnydipper (22 October 2020)

jenniehodges2001 said:



			I was smacked as a child. 

It never did me any harm.  You have to set boundaries as far an animals are concerned.
		
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You have a lot to learn if you think setting boundaries involves punishment.

Intimidation is also unnecessary.


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## MrsMozart (22 October 2020)

Levrier said:



			Just wanted to say thanks for this BBP - I am still very upset and angry with my vets for not treating Ace properly, and I will be submitting a formal complaint to them. 

I was wondering why I felt so rubbish and desperate on Tuesday evening but all became clearer when I woke up on Wednesday with a persistent cough, muscle ache, going hot and cold, nausea etc - currently waiting for the outcome of my Covid-19 test.  It’s probably just a cold 😳
		
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I hope you're okay lass.


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## jenniehodges2001 (23 October 2020)

skinnydipper said:



			You have a lot to learn if you think setting boundaries involves punishment.

Intimidation is also unnecessary.
		
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You could put them in the naughty corner I suppose......

Sometimes a smack is all it takes.  My horse isn't intimidated because i smack him once or twice a year, I actually find that he has more respect for me because I treat him as he would be treated in the wild by another horse if he stepped out of line, obviously not a smack from a horse as they don't have hands but a quick nip. I assume he doesn't hate me as I get a massive whinny off him every day when I arrive on the yard.  I have on occasion made myself 'big' by using my body language but have found that that isn't as effective.  Five minutes after smacking a horse they've forgotten all about it, they don't turn into cowering wrecks.

So you can reason with them and say 'what a naughty pony' for taking someone's face off or for scraping its foot on the ground for the past two hours.  And it has no effect whatsoever.  Or you can use whatever other coping strategies work best in your ideal world, but I have never found anything but mutual respect for my animals by curbing any bad behaviour in their tracks and before it develops into a habit which is harder to resolve.


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## skinnydipper (23 October 2020)

jenniehodges2001 said:



			You could put them in the naughty corner I suppose......

Sometimes a smack is all it takes.  My horse isn't intimidated because i smack him once or twice a year, I actually find that he has more respect for me because I treat him as he would be treated in the wild by another horse if he stepped out of line, obviously not a smack from a horse as they don't have hands but a quick nip. I assume he doesn't hate me as I get a massive whinny off him every day when I arrive on the yard.  I have on occasion made myself 'big' by using my body language but have found that that isn't as effective.  Five minutes after smacking a horse they've forgotten all about it, they don't turn into cowering wrecks.

So you can reason with them and say 'what a naughty pony' for taking someone's face off or for scraping its foot on the ground for the past two hours.  And it has no effect whatsoever.  Or you can use whatever other coping strategies work best in your ideal world, but I have never found anything but mutual respect for my animals by curbing any bad behaviour in their tracks and before it develops into a habit which is harder to resolve.
		
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Oh, not again.  This is tedious.

I'll stick to discussing dogs if you don't mind.

I prefer co-operation, trust and mutual respect.

I don't use aversives.  I don't smack, slap, tap the nose, kick, jerk, shock, choke or yell.

You shouldn't bully or push a dog around just because you can.  There are better ways. We have bigger brains than dogs.

I think you used the term "fluffy".  I can assure you there is nothing "fluffy" about me.

The dog in my avatar was a behavioural mess when I got him.  At 18 months he had spent his short life in a back yard, not been for a walk or socialised with other dogs or people.  He was wild and distrustful.  How far do you think it would have got me if I had started slapping him around?  We built a strong relationship, he trusted me and would do anything I asked.  I trusted him.  He would have given his life for me.  That was achieved with patience, guidance, and confident, calm leadership.

I had between 8 and 9 dogs living with 4 cats in peaceful harmony.  No crates, cages or kennels.  All living freely in the house.  No chewing, separation anxiety, destruction or stress related behaviour.  No fighting or bickering.

I also took all the dogs out together on my own, they could all walk nicely on a lead and come when called  (yes, including the sight hounds, terriers and a dog who was born deaf).  We had fun.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, as they say.

I agree with @Sandstone1



Sandstone1 said:



			Dogs do not bite out of the blue or for no reason. They give lots of warnings but we often just do not read their body language.
		
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If you get bitten you need to examine your own behaviour leading up to the bite, then give yourself a slap for getting it wrong.

I suggest you have a look at the thread "Any corgi experts out there" and any other thread that comes up when you search aversives or punishment - you will see I always take the same stance.

I became so weary of having the same discussion over and over that I rarely post on AAD these.

I have patience with dogs, with people not so much. I have wasted enough time with this, I'm done.

NB  I came on this thread not to berate the OP but to offer advice about feeding from separate bowls.


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## Clodagh (23 October 2020)

I don't know when I did last smack a dog. I have to admit I don't think I have ever done it and actually achieved anything! I certainly haven't smacked one for 20 or more years, I think I did smack my rescue bull terrier way back in the day when she was caught bin diving for the umpteenth time. Then learned it was easier to keep the bin out of reach.
The OP admitted she was wrong in kicking the dog and SD I didn't think you were having a go at her.
I know now I only have labradors from pups so colour by numbers training wise but we used to have all sorts of rescues and rehomes and the ones that wanted to bite you - you'd have been in more danger smacking them than you were trying to get round the situation without doing so.
Absolutely not saying I haven't felt angry, exasperated and at the end of my tether on occasion.


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## jenniehodges2001 (23 October 2020)

skinnydipper said:



			Oh, not again.  This is tedious.
		
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Apologise that my difference of opinion and choice to reply to your post is 'tedious'.
How patronising.


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## {97702} (23 October 2020)

MrsMozart said:



			I hope you're okay lass.
		
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Thanks MrsM - 50 hours later I’ve finally got my result and it’s negative, phew!!! A friend says she has had the same symptoms as me for 2 months now 😱 so who knows what it is, but at least I can go out and walk the dogs again 😊

On completely another note it appears from one of BellaSophia’s replies that I missed a total bitchfest in response to my criticism of the OP - so sorry all those who posted totally wasted their time, I didn’t see any of it....


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## jenniehodges2001 (23 October 2020)

Levrier said:



			On completely another note it appears from one of BellaSophia’s replies that I missed a total bitchfest .
		
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Ooh I do like that word even if I don't like what it stands for


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## IrishMilo (23 October 2020)

Sandstone1 said:



			I do not care what they do or do not do to be honest, a happy confident animal is my aim not a robotic circus animal.  That is just me though.
		
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Happy animals are ones who know their place and have firm boundaries. To say that makes them robots is a ridiculous stretch at making those boundaries sound like animal abuse. 

Have you ever seen the way a dog nips another when it's been pissed off by it? Do you think the adult dog who disciplines the puppy with a short nip is abusive?


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## jenniehodges2001 (23 October 2020)

skinnydipper said:



			I think you used the term "fluffy".  I can assure you there is nothing "fluffy" about me.

The dog in my avatar was a behavioural mess when I got him.  At 18 months he had spent his short life in a back yard, not been for a walk or socialised with other dogs or people.  He was wild and distrustful.  How far do you think it would have got me if I had started slapping him around?  We built a strong relationship, he trusted me and would do anything I asked.  I trusted him.  He would have given his life for me.  That was achieved with patience, guidance, and confident, calm leadership.
.
		
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Gosh so we have gone from an occasional smack to 'slapping around' an animal on a daily basis.

That's a big jump and totally NOT what I (or anyone on here for that matter) said.


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## Goldenstar (23 October 2020)

AAD does seem to be a kind place to come for constructive advice atm .

I was bitten by dog I was walking along it was with its owner on one of those idiotic extending leads it ran up to me grabbed me by the knee .
I felt no need to examine my behaviour sometimes it’s not the fault of the person who been bitten


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## Sandstone1 (23 October 2020)

IrishMilo said:



			Happy animals are ones who know their place and have firm boundaries. To say that makes them robots is a ridiculous stretch at making those boundaries sound like animal abuse.

Have you ever seen the way a dog nips another when it's been pissed off by it? Do you think the adult dog who disciplines the puppy with a short nip is abusive?
		
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Yes, but people are not dogs.


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## skinnydipper (23 October 2020)

Goldenstar said:



			AAD does seem to be a kind place to come for constructive advice atm .

I was bitten by dog I was walking along it was with its owner on one of those idiotic extending leads it ran up to me grabbed me by the knee .
I felt no need to examine my behaviour sometimes it’s not the fault of the person who been bitten
		
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I believe we were talking about owners and their dogs?


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## Tiddlypom (23 October 2020)

Goldenstar said:



			I felt no need to examine my behaviour sometimes it’s not the fault of the person who been bitten
		
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Gosh, GS, steady on, we’ve been told that it’s always the fault of the person who’s been bitten. What did you do to antagonise that dog?


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## jenniehodges2001 (23 October 2020)

Sandstone1 said:



			Yes, but people are not dogs.
		
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So are you anti Caesar then? He makes his hand into a dog jaw shape and uses it to chastise dogs as their mother would do.  I don't see anything wrong with that.


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## Sandstone1 (23 October 2020)

jenniehodges2001 said:



			So are you anti Caesar then? He makes his hand into a dog jaw shape and uses it to chastise dogs as their mother would do.  I don't see anything wrong with that.
		
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I am 100% anti caesar Milan if thats who you mean.  The mans a complete idiot and has set dog training back massively.
Try looking up the canine ladder of aggression.


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## Goldenstar (23 October 2020)

If you get bitten you need to examine your own behaviour leading up to the bite, then give yourself a slap for getting it wrong.

No SD that’s what you said I should also quote Sandstone because apparently I ought to have been watching it’s body language .
you both made a sweeping statements .


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## skinnydipper (23 October 2020)

jenniehodges2001 said:



			So are you anti Caesar then? He makes his hand into a dog jaw shape and uses it to chastise dogs as their mother would do.  I don't see anything wrong with that.
		
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## Bellasophia (23 October 2020)

DressageCob said:



			I do agree with you, but I also think it was cruel and uncalled for to suggest that this poster should have her dogs taken off her, when she posted here as a safe place to try to learn from her mistake. I’m afraid I see that as bullying, particularly when what we are talking about is a small kick which wasn’t hard.

Given the demands that the OP give up dog ownership, I’m not surprised people reminded the poster of her own shortcomings. We all make mistakes; if we all lost our dogs over it then the shelters would be full and all homes would be empty.

I think a little more empathy and humanity was needed all round.
		
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I will answer  this ,as it’s addressed to me,re the quote..
Your first paragraph is crossing different posters‘input.  you agreed with me..but Then comment it was cruel and uncalled for etc etc...I never suggested the dog be removed from poster,
If you read my own posts,i didn’t agree with levs suggestion to take away the dog..
But surely she’s allowed to express her  opinion,without being ripped into by a mob?


As for the original poster I saw this as a one off response to a bite and did not in any way condemn her actions,and O.P does have my support@and sympathy.


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## skinnydipper (23 October 2020)

Goldenstar said:



			If you get bitten you need to examine your own behaviour leading up to the bite, then give yourself a slap for getting it wrong.

No SD that’s what you said I should also quote Sandstone because apparently I ought to have been watching it’s body language .
you both made a sweeping statements .
		
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To repeat myself, the discussion was about owners and their own dogs.

I don't believe the thread had deviated to discuss random dogs.


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## Goldenstar (23 October 2020)

Of course Lev can express opinions and the rest of have the right as well .
I will always call out unkindness when I see it .


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## [148596] (23 October 2020)

Update:

OK what we all (most especially me) missed is pain. Which is very un HHO like - maybe I should post in Tack Room not specifying the species next time!

This is a dog I've been taking bones off (on verbal command or by hand) a few times a week for years now - we walk in areas near take-aways so it happens regularly... It's a dog who has never resource guarded food and will wait it's turn for the bowl and move away when I say. (I get that not everyone likes this idea, all I'm saying here is that it works, and easily usually).

I wasn't watching the body language closely this time becasue my mind was elsewhere and _I don't usually need to_ for waste food removal. Bite inhibition has always been patchy possibly due to poor upbringing and certainly not helped by all and sundry treating like a puppy who is allowed to mouth on hands. (I had to shout at someone even this week to not do that). Resource guarding type biting is a completely new behaviour though. Only previous threats to bite (as opposed to mouth) have been when needed uncomfortable ailments treating.

When I realised I'd written that Dog wasn't so keen on walks lately I thought it through again... Had a go at videoing Dog 'trotting up'. Think we have slight lameness. Which would explain reluctance to take walks. And also sudden bad temper. Going to vet.


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## Bellasophia (23 October 2020)

vet check is a good idea,especially if you say this is out of character for him and he’s also slightly lame.


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## jenniehodges2001 (23 October 2020)

skinnydipper said:





Click to expand...

Yep.  Patronising.


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## skinnydipper (23 October 2020)

IrishMilo said:



			Have you ever seen the way a dog nips another when it's been pissed off by it? Do you think the adult dog who disciplines the puppy with a short nip is abusive?
		
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jenniehodges2001 said:



			So are you anti Caesar then? He makes his hand into a dog jaw shape and uses it to chastise dogs as their mother would do.  I don't see anything wrong with that.
		
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There was a faint hope that the discussion would not deteriorate to the point of mimicking dogs. 

We can do better.


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## SAujla (23 October 2020)

skinnydipper said:



			We have bigger brains than dogs.
		
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Bigger yes, but better and more intelligent? Based on some of the people on here absolutely no chance


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## skinnydipper (23 October 2020)

...


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## Pearlsasinger (23 October 2020)

I think we must remember that dogs understand how to be dogs, before they understand anything else, they know by instinct and learn from their mothers from being tiny. It is much easier for us to try to 'speak' dog than it is for a dog, especially if we are talking about a pup, or untrained dog than it is for a dog to guess what a human means. 
I will slap a dog on the flank occasionally, especially if the current Labs' play is getting too rough and one is coming off worse. The black one doesn't always take notice of a verbal warning or even a distraction. The slap isn't punishment as such, it's an intervention but she knows it means she has to leave her sister alone and play differently.

OP, I'm glad you have found a reason for the behaviour, although I realise it probably makes you feel even worse about your one off reaction. I'm not sure that I think that biting is a  acceptable response to being asked to give up a prize when you are lame. 
I thought you were going to say toothache or similar, which might have made the bite more acceptable.


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## DressageCob (23 October 2020)

Bellasophia said:



			I will answer  this ,as it’s addressed to me,re the quote..
Your first paragraph is crossing different posters‘input.  you agreed with me..but Then comment it was cruel and uncalled for etc etc...I never suggested the dog be removed from poster,
If you read my own posts,i didn’t agree with levs suggestion to take away the dog..
But surely she’s allowed to express her  opinion,without being ripped into by a mob?


As for the original poster I saw this as a one off response to a bite and did not in any way condemn her actions,and O.P does have my support@and sympathy.
		
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sorry, I wasn’t suggesting you said the poster should have her dog removed. I was meaning to say I thought it was cruel of another poster to make that suggestion.

I agreed with you that bullying isn’t on, but I was saying I thought the knee jerk reaction that someone should have their dogs removed was incredibly mean. It may be an opinion, but I don’t think it’s unfair to disagree with that opinion. I wouldn’t go trawling through old posts, but I can see why others would when they show that the poster themselves isn’t without fault. People in glass houses and all that.

So I’m sorry you thought I was criticising you. I wasn’t at all. Bullying should always be called out when it’s seen.


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## DressageCob (23 October 2020)

OP I hope the visit to the vets goes well and you get some answers. It’s funny how you can overlook that sort of thing in different animals; if my horse tried to bite me I would immediately assume pain. If it were my dog I’d assume my training has failed somewhere!!


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## TheresaW (23 October 2020)

I don’t think anyone trawled back at old posts. I got the impression the OP was looking to see if anyone had posted a similar post at any point. It is quite a range that comes up in the search option.


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## {97702} (23 October 2020)

Is all of this part of the hoo-ha seriously about the post that the OP made suggesting that I’d also made mistakes with my rescue dogs in the past 😳 I’d assumed further posts had occurred which had subsequently been deleted by Admin - this assumption was made after reading posts that made references to multiple posters criticising me for mistakes I’d made with my rescue dogs??

Whichever way, as usual the point I was making has been conveniently ignored.  I was not criticising the OP for making a mistake with the rescue dog - these things happen, dogs are not robots - I was suggesting that the reaction which occurred when the dog bit the OP was in my view inappropriate.

A great many of you felt my post was unfair and harsh, that’s your prerogative.


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## TheresaW (23 October 2020)

I don’t think anything has been deleted apart from your rant where you swore. I didn’t report it in case you’re wondering. I think that is where the bullying remarks are coming from, replies to that. You really didn’t miss out on anything.


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## {97702} (23 October 2020)

I couldn’t care less who reported it - or not, it may have been an automatic filter that picked it up? - just surprised at some of the subsequent posts.

Plus ca change


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## TheresaW (23 October 2020)

Levrier said:



			Whichever way, as usual the point I was making has been conveniently ignored.  I was not criticising the OP for making a mistake with the rescue dog - these things happen, dogs are not robots - I was suggesting that the reaction which occurred when the dog bit the OP was in my view inappropriate.

A great many of you felt my post was unfair and harsh, that’s your prerogative.
		
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No, you weren’t suggesting it was inappropriate, you said the dog should be rehomed. I’m not searching back on any posts, just going on posts I remember reading, and you contradict yourself so many times, and when caught out/pulled on it, try and play some sympathy card or another.



Levrier said:



			No idea why everyone is being so nice to you quite frankly - I’d say the dog needs to be rehomed to someone has the first clue what they are doing what they are doing with a rescue and doesn’t think that kicking a dog when they are stupid enough to get themselves bitten is simply an ‘instinctive reaction’.

I’ve been bitten once by one of my rescues in 20 years, it was my fault - I put her into the situation where I let it happen.  I didn’t have the slightest inclination to hit or kick her, it was MY FAULT.

I don’t give a damn whether it suits you/your family/your lifestyle to keep the dog - if you act like that you shouldn’t have the dog IMO
		
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Our previous dog bit me. He had guarding issues, and when he had something he shouldn’t, I went to take it ignoring all the advice I’d read, and got bitten. No I didn’t tell him off, kick him or anything else. Had he however bitten me totally out of the blue, with no warning, doing something I’d done several times before, I can’t honestly say I wouldn’t have reacted in shock.


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## {97702} (24 October 2020)

TheresaW said:



			No, you weren’t suggesting it was inappropriate, you said the dog should be rehomed. I’m not searching back on any posts, just going on posts I remember reading, and you contradict yourself so many times, and when caught out/pulled on it, try and play some sympathy card or another.



Our previous dog bit me. He had guarding issues, and when he had something he shouldn’t, I went to take it ignoring all the advice I’d read, and got bitten. No I didn’t tell him off, kick him or anything else. Had he however bitten me totally out of the blue, with no warning, doing something I’d done several times before, I can’t honestly say I wouldn’t have reacted in shock.
		
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Oh for goodness sake......to spell it out even more clearly to you, my reply in post 106 was for those posters who were saying that I was trying to take the moral high ground on the basis that my own rescue dogs had never done anything wrong.   Of course my dogs have done things wrong, and I’ve got things wrong with them (hence I’ve got bitten, they had a fight etc) - what I didn’t do was kick them then isolate them because I got it wrong.

My personal view is that rescue dogs have gone through enough rubbish in their lives before they reach their ‘forever homes’ to receive treatment like that when they are re-homed.  I’ve formed that view after a lot of exposure and experience of a lot of rescue dogs, not just my own.

So no I’m not trying to “contradict myself” and all the other stuff you accuse me of....I work in HR and unfortunately have to use different terminology to that which you are apparently used to, ‘inappropriate’ in this instance means ‘should not have done it at all’ - and to point out the obvious, at no time have I denied saying I think the dog should be re-homed, just because I described the owner’s behaviour as inappropriate doesn’t suddenly suggest I’m going back on that??

Since you appear to have difficulty understanding posts maybe ask for clarification before jumping to conclusions, I can’t guarantee I’ll make every post simple for everyone to understand each time I post.


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## Clodagh (24 October 2020)

I think kicking a dog is actually more acceptable than smacking. If you boot out in a spur of the moment reaction it is perhaps more excuseable then the planned smack. 
Based on my saying I haven’t smacked a dog for years but did boot Ffee last year when she was trying to swallow a rabbit and would not drop it. Inexcusable perhaps but definitely effective!


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## skinnydipper (24 October 2020)

Clodagh said:



*I think kicking a dog is actually more acceptable* than smacking. If you boot out in a spur of the moment reaction *it is perhaps more excuseable then the planned smack*.
Based on my saying I haven’t smacked a dog for years but did boot Ffee last year when she was trying to swallow a rabbit and would not drop it. Inexcusable perhaps but definitely effective!
		
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Acceptable - no. 

People plan to smack their pets?  Seriously?


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## Clodagh (24 October 2020)

skinnydipper said:



			Acceptable - no. 

People plan to smack their pets?  Seriously?
		
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I don’t mean plan as in getting up in the morning and thinking ‘I’ll thump a dog today’, just that to smack a dog you need to make a decision to do it and probably bend over to reach. A spontaneous kick out would be more... spontaneous.
I don’t make a habit of using physical violence against them, but thought I would confess to the boot as I said about on here at the time and didn’t want to be accused of hypocrisy by any of the people who have nothing better to do than go back through four year old posts to look for an issue.


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## skinnydipper (24 October 2020)

Clodagh said:



			I don’t mean plan as in getting up in the morning and thinking ‘I’ll thump a dog today’, just that to smack a dog you need to make a decision to do it and probably bend over to reach. A spontaneous kick out would be more... spontaneous.
I don’t make a habit of using physical violence against them, but thought I would confess to the boot as I said about on here at the time and didn’t want to be accused of hypocrisy by any of the people who have nothing better to do than go back through four year old posts to look for an issue.
		
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I think owners should have a better strategy for managing unwanted behaviour than smacking - just saying.


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## SAujla (24 October 2020)

skinnydipper said:



			I think owners should have a better strategy for managing unwanted behaviour than smacking - just saying.
		
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It doesn't sound like the kick was a strategy more of a last resort, I'm not sure what else would work when a dog has got hold of a rabbit like in that example. I understand prevention is better and not to let the dog get hold of the rabbit in the first place but it's not always that easy.

There is a big difference between what happened with the OP or Clodagh and the people who use smacking or kicking as an actual training technique and think it's okay

E collars are banned in the UK


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## skinnydipper (24 October 2020)

SAujla said:



			E collars are banned in the UK
		
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Not true.

Illegal in Wales. 

There was a proposal to ban them in England in 2018.

October 2020.  The Government remains committed to banning the use of remote controlled hand-held electronic training collars (e-collars) for dogs and cats in England. We will introduce the necessary legislation to implement the ban as soon as parliamentary time allows.

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2020-10-12/102125

This is the exactly the same reply when the question was tabled on 29 January 2020


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## skinnydipper (24 October 2020)

SAujla said:



			It doesn't sound like the kick was a strategy more of a last resort, I'm not sure what else would work when a dog has got hold of a rabbit like in that example. I understand prevention is better and not to let the dog get hold of the rabbit in the first place but it's not always that easy.

There is a big difference between what happened with the OP or Clodagh and the people who use smacking or kicking as an actual training technique and think it's okay

E collars are banned in the UK
		
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I was already aware of the Ffee/rabbit incident which was discussed earlier in the year.  Out of courtesy to Clodagh, I had chosen not to mention it.


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## Clodagh (24 October 2020)

skinnydipper said:



			I was already aware of the Ffee/rabbit incident which was discussed earlier in the year.  Out of courtesy to Clodagh, I had chosen not to mention it.
		
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Thank you but I'm really not ashamed about it. It was the first time I used force with her and haven't needed to or done it again since. When it was originally discussed it was a how would you get the rabbit off (you = one, not you = SD) and I don't think anything useful was decided. I suspect it won't again here either. 
We can aways just electrocute them. THat'll fix it


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## ycbm (24 October 2020)

What's wrong with a vibration collar?  It shakes,  it doesn't shock.  Presumably all it does is distract?   Useful for deaf dogs,  I understand.


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## skinnydipper (24 October 2020)

ycbm said:



			What's wrong with a vibration collar?  It shakes,  it doesn't shock.  Presumably all it does is distract?   Useful for deaf dogs,  I understand.
		
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I am awaiting clarification as to what type of collar the poster was referring to.

I bought a vibration collar for my deaf dog when I adopted her, it was useless. Instead she was rewarded for frequently checking in with me, eye contact was sufficient, and signals to tell her it was okay to carry on or to return to me.  

ETA.  I fear that if the poster is using it to correct unwanted behaviour it will not be a vibration collar, but we'll see.


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## TheresaW (24 October 2020)

Clodagh said:



			Thank you but I'm really not ashamed about it. It was the first time I used force with her and haven't needed to or done it again since. When it was originally discussed it was a how would you get the rabbit off (you = one, not you = SD) and I don't think anything useful was decided. I suspect it won't again here either.
We can aways just electrocute them. THat'll fix it

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It would work (electrocution). Have mentioned it many times before about Luna as a pup. She jumped up against the electric fence to get a closer look at the horses. One was close to the fence, and since that day, she has given the horses a very wide berth. Funnily enough, she is not wary of the fence at all. I do always switch it off, that day she was just a bit quicker than me.


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## skinnydipper (24 October 2020)

There's a plethora of behaviourists and trainers on the thread so I think I'll step back.


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## Sandstone1 (24 October 2020)

TheresaW said:



			It would work (electrocution). Have mentioned it many times before about Luna as a pup. She jumped up against the electric fence to get a closer look at the horses. One was close to the fence, and since that day, she has given the horses a very wide berth. Funnily enough, she is not wary of the fence at all. I do always switch it off, that day she was just a bit quicker than me.
		
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That would be because she thinks it was the horse that hurt her.  ABC.  A antecedent was the presence of the horse B the behaviour, was jumping up to see the horse C was the consequence, getting the shock.   The dog would not think it was the fence that hurt her but the horse.


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## TheresaW (24 October 2020)

skinnydipper said:



			There's a plethora of behaviourists and trainers on the thread so I think I'll step back.
		
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I hope that wasn’t aimed because of my post, it was meant to be tongue in cheek. I never have and never would use electric as a training method. What happened with Luna was an accident.


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## TheresaW (24 October 2020)

Sandstone1 said:



			That would be because she thinks it was the horse that hurt her.  ABC.  A antecedent was the presence of the horse B the behaviour, was jumping up to see the horse C was the consequence, getting the shock.   The dog would not think it was the fence that hurt her but the horse.
		
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Yes, that’s what we believe. Would never have deliberately done that to her, but in hindsight, it did us a favour.


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## skinnydipper (24 October 2020)

TheresaW said:



			I hope that wasn’t aimed because of my post, it was meant to be tongue in cheek. I never have and never would use electric as a training method. What happened with Luna was an accident.
		
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Not specifically.


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## Clodagh (24 October 2020)

skinnydipper said:



			There's a plethora of behaviourists and trainers on the thread so I think I'll step back.
		
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Probably best, there’s is nothing more annoying than overwhelming sanctimoniousness.

Most people have made mistakes at some point in their lives. 
I don’t think TWs husky getting shocked was a failing by TW at all. She now has a dog that can have fun in a safe fenced environment as a result of an incredibly timely self administered shock. Not the same as someone pressing a button when they want to.


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## Tiddlypom (24 October 2020)

.


TheresaW said:



			I hope that wasn’t aimed because of my post, it was meant to be tongue in cheek. I never have and never would use electric as a training method. What happened with Luna was an accident.
		
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And as I have previously posted, an accidental zap on the sheep string worked very well on the late JRT. 

It was not a set up situation in any way, our winter woolly visitors had arrived in the top hay field. He ran off towards them (deaf lugs) and ran into the farmer’s electric string. He ran back yelping. He avoided sheep completely after that.


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## ester (24 October 2020)

skinnydipper said:



			I am awaiting clarification as to what type of collar the poster was referring to.
		
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What clarification is being waited for when the post specifically says vibration in it? I'm confused at the jump people have made to a shock e-collar when it said vibration.


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## PapaverFollis (24 October 2020)

I think my Sprollie is not as clever as he pretends.  3 times he's been got by the electric fence now and no association seems to have been made. 😂  The Spaniel got got and was just like "oh yeah, that's the good stuuuuufff"... pain is fun for him I'm sure.


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## ycbm (24 October 2020)

PapaverFollis said:



			I think my Sprollie is not as clever as he pretends.  3 times he's been got by the electric fence now and no association seems to have been made. 😂  The Spaniel got got and was just like "oh yeah, that's the good stuuuuufff"... pain is fun for him I'm sure.
		
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🤣


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## ycbm (24 October 2020)

I find it interesting that people react so strongly to the idea of allowing a dog to shock itself.  It happens to every horse who comes to live here that doesn't know what an electric fence is until they try one.  They only do it once.


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## Cortez (24 October 2020)

ycbm said:



			I find it interesting that people react so strongly to the idea of allowing a dog to shock itself.  It happens to every horse who comes to live here that doesn't know what an electric fence is until they try one.  They only do it once.
		
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A dog shocking itself is not the same as deliberately using a shock collar.


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## ycbm (24 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			A dog shocking itself is not the same as deliberately using a shock collar.
		
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And I wasn't talking about using a shock collar either. I was referring to posts where people said their dogs shocked themselves on fences.

Just like wot horses do.


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## ycbm (24 October 2020)

Incidentally nobody has been talking about using a shock collar. An assumption has been made,  for a reason which escapes me,  that someone who suggested using a vibration collar actually meant they would use a shock collar.


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## Cortez (24 October 2020)

ycbm said:



			Incidentally nobody has been talking about using a shock collar. An assumption has been made,  for a reason which escapes me,  that someone who suggested using a vibration collar actually meant they would use a shock collar.
		
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I took the inference from that poster that it was a shock collar. I've never seen or heard of a vibration collar - is that likely to work for the purposes being discussed?


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## ycbm (24 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			I took the inference from that poster that it was a shock collar. I've never seen or heard of a vibration collar - is that likely to work for the purposes being discussed?
		
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I'd never heard of it either,  I looked it up to check it was exactly what it says. I don't train dogs I've no idea whether it can work,  but on the face of it I can't see why it couldn't be a substitute for a voice command.  
.


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## ester (24 October 2020)

Yup some just vibrate, some have vibrate as a setting before shock. 

some just beep, the only one I've ever seen used was as part of a freedom fence system on a yard set up do didn't involve a person. - which I'm only really mentioning cos of the dogs getting shocks off fences comment.


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## Cortez (24 October 2020)

ycbm said:



			And I wasn't talking about using a shock collar either. I was referring to posts where people said their dogs shocked themselves on fences.

Just like wot horses do.
		
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Oh sorry: got the wrong end of the stick - yes, agree with you; electric fences work just the same (better, actually I think) for dogs.


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## PapaverFollis (24 October 2020)

Vibration collars are just vibrations and some people do use them for giving cues to deaf dogs.   You could probably even set the dog up to find the vibration rewarding, in the same way you can use a clicker.  However in this original context it came up on this thread I think the person was talking about using them as an aversive? Some dogs do find the vibrations aversive in themselves. Others you would have to pair it with an aversive... usually a shock from the same collar which us why the shock and vibration often come together on one collar. Pair the vibrations with a shock often enough and you can stop shocking the dog because it's emotion response to the vibration becomes enough.

For resource guarding I think the swap method well applied is best.   However I have also applied the dangling by the harness until the b*gger lets go of the enormous pheasant method effectively.  Also sometimes the only thing that will create a successful swap for a giant rotting rabbit is his own food bowl with a whole tin of fancy dog food and a packet of sausages in it.... and even then you had better be quick. Harness dangling does not work for giant rotting rabbits by the way. You have to do the walk of spaniel owning shame through the village with that one.


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## PapaverFollis (24 October 2020)

I probably shouldn't own dogs. 😆🤷‍♀️


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## maya2008 (25 October 2020)

I hope the cause of the lameness is easy to fix OP and that your dog is feeling better soon.

For the general discussion:

Rescue animals who were once socialised well and had a ‘normal’ upbringing are very different creatures from rescue animals whose formative months/years did not involve proper socialisation.  You don’t always know which you are getting.  I think people have varying experiences/ideas because of this.

Socialisation is so much more important than people think. I chose a puppy from a farm home where there was the ‘perfect’ set-up in many ways to create a well socialised, well adjusted dog. She went back there for doggy daycare until we moved away so saw her mum and sister regularly. She helped bring up one more litter, ran as a pack with the farm dogs and had a really great start. As a result, she was easy to train and very reliable, she also learned to make her own decisions and act like an adult.  
I have never had to carry a pocket full of treats, or needed any reward beyond a bit of fuss for her to do as she is told. She stays with us wherever we go without asking, knows it is her responsibility to get into the car without me checking when I get the kids in, is completely reliable in a garden with no proper fence and for years came hacking with me and never once even needed telling what to do. No special training did that - her mum, her siblings, farm life and a few boundaries from me (I didn’t need to do that much!) created a happy, reliable family dog.   

There is no magic way to train every animal, they are all different, and different situations call for different approaches. I don’t use the same methods to train all my horses, some have had a different start in life, some have different personalities - a good smack on the bottom will get one to stop being silly while it would make another panic....

Rather than arguing about methods, it surprised me that no one asked if the dog was ok physically before the incident - if it had been a horse behaving unusually, that is the first thing that would have been suggested.


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## skinnydipper (25 October 2020)

ycbm said:



			What's wrong with a vibration collar?  It shakes,  it doesn't shock.  Presumably all it does is distract?   Useful for deaf dogs,  I understand.
		
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ycbm said:



			I'd never heard of it either, I looked it up to check it was exactly what it says. I don't train dogs I've no idea whether it can work, but on the face of it I can't see why it couldn't be a substitute for a voice command.
.
		
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I didn't know that you had an interest in dog training, deaf dogs and communication.

Further to my recent post sharing my experience of using a vibrating collar on a dog who had no hearing (it did not get her attention).

It is possible to communicate with a dog without speaking a word, using facial expression, body language and hand signals.

Initially I overthought the whole training thing and used a tiny flash light as a marker when training but found facial expression better.  She was very quick to learn. Being deaf did not hold her back.

If you have any questions, I would be happy to help.


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## skinnydipper (25 October 2020)

Clodagh said:



			Probably best, there’s is nothing more annoying than overwhelming sanctimoniousness.

Most people have made mistakes at some point in their lives.
		
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You were very rude to both myself another forum member in the same post on another thread on AAD. (I won't name her as I have no wish to cause her upset).  You deleted it but not before I had seen it.  It was one of the reasons I gave up posting on here.

I didn't want to have to have to say this.  Kicking a dog is not an accident or a mistake.  I would never kick my dog - you can call it sanctimonious, or whatever you like.

Wall eating can stem from anxiety.


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## Goldenstar (25 October 2020)

It’s very easy to retrain deaf dogs even when they are old and losing their hearing  I done it several times .
Now I train a lot using only hand signals right through it’s just a bit of future proofing


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## Clodagh (25 October 2020)

[QUOTE="skinnydipper, post: 14436350, member: 134106
Wall eating can stem from anxiety.[/QUOTE]

That is a bit of a random conversation sidestep? 
I do try not to be rude on here but sometimes the inability to discuss anything but for everyone to be so dogmatic and ‘I am right and the rest are wrong’ can get wearing.


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## Sandstone1 (25 October 2020)

Tiddlypom said:



			.
And as I have previously posted, an accidental zap on the sheep string worked very well on the late JRT.

It was not a set up situation in any way, our winter woolly visitors had arrived in the top hay field. He ran off towards them (deaf lu
		
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Clodagh said:



			[QUOTE="skinnydipper, post: 14436350, member: 134106
Wall eating can stem from anxiety.
		
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Deleted


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## Tiddlypom (25 October 2020)

Sandstone1 said:



			Deleted
		
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So why part of of a quote from me up? Are you going to leave it there in limbo?


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## cbmcts (25 October 2020)

I've been reading this thread since it was posted and despite having dogs of my own (after growing up with many waifs and strays who weren't always what you would call suitable family dogs) for 30 years, everything from well bred pups, pity buys and rescues, some of whom were in the last chance corral I still get it wrong on occasion.

In an ideal world we would never react badly to a situation, our dogs would always be under full control, we would never put them in a position where they, we or someone else could get hurt (I failed badly on this this week) by being their advocate but do you know what? We're human, we make mistakes and hopefully, we learn from it. If the OP didn't want to learn from this, they wouldn't have posted the thread...

The only people I judge are those who keep doing what they have always done but are surprised when they get the same result each time!


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## Sandstone1 (25 October 2020)

Tiddlypom said:



			So why part of of a quote from me up? Are you going to leave it there in limbo?
		
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Sorry the quote function went weird for some reason.  Im not sure what happened.  I am leaving it there though.  Cant be bothered going round in circles!


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## Sussexbythesea (25 October 2020)

This thread is an example of why I would never ask advice on this forum regarding dogs apart from what best tick treatment to use or similar. It’s far more judgmental than any of the horse threads and so many people with a couple of pet dogs are expert trainers it’s amazing.


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## popcorn1 (25 October 2020)

I have smacked my dog and horse in the past. It is very rare. However if they do something I deem to be particularly dangerous then yes, they will get a smack.


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## jenniehodges2001 (26 October 2020)

TheresaW said:



			I don’t think anything has been deleted apart from your rant where you swore. I didn’t report it in case you’re wondering. I think that is where the bullying remarks are coming from, replies to that. You really didn’t miss out on anything.
		
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I'm sure some nasty person will have reported it to admin.  This has happened before on these type of posts.


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## Tihamandturkey (26 October 2020)

cbmcts said:



			I've been reading this thread since it was posted and despite having dogs of my own (after growing up with many waifs and strays who weren't always what you would call suitable family dogs) for 30 years, everything from well bred pups, pity buys and rescues, some of whom were in the last chance corral I still get it wrong on occasion.

In an ideal world we would never react badly to a situation, our dogs would always be under full control, we would never put them in a position where they, we or someone else could get hurt (I failed badly on this this week) by being their advocate but do you know what? We're human, we make mistakes and hopefully, we learn from it. If the OP didn't want to learn from this, they wouldn't have posted the thread...

The only people I judge are those who keep doing what they have always done but are surprised when they get the same result each time!
		
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This 100%


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## Sandstone1 (26 October 2020)

Sussexbythesea said:



			This thread is an example of why I would never ask advice on this forum regarding dogs apart from what best tick treatment to use or similar. It’s far more judgmental than any of the horse threads and so many people with a couple of pet dogs are expert trainers it’s amazing.
		
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That may be true in some cases but there are also some knowledgeable people.


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## Karran (26 October 2020)

OP I dont know if you're still reading this thread, but I was recommended this book and it might be of interest to you or to anyone who finds this thread in future searching for same issues...
I've only read the first few pages so far but found it reasonably worthwhile 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mine-Pract...70&hvtargid=pla-333017948825&psc=1&th=1&psc=1


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## jenniehodges2001 (29 October 2020)

I know someone who used to puppy walk for a local hunt down South.  

They had electronic gates to the yard entrance which opened by the driver pressing a remote control button they kept in their car.  The one day as the pups were running free on the yard with the yard owners  dog, one of the liveries came through the gate.  One of the pupplies ran through the open gate and escaped onto the lane, yet the yard owners dog stood routed to the spot as he knew he wasn't allowed out of the gate!The yard owner grabbed a lunge whip and he walked over to the gate, the puppy materialised and the yard owner gave him a crack across the back with the lunge whip.  

Whilst the whip might have hurt the pup at the time, it would certainly have been a lot more hurt had it been hit by a car.The pup always steered clear of the gate after that, it remembered the consequence when it ran onto the lane.  Job done.  It didn't live in fear of the yard owner after that, in fact ten minutes later it went over to him for a fuss.  Hardly psychologically damaged for life! I really don't see how reacting like that is bad for an animal if it potentially saves their lives.  The saying 'you have to be cruel to be kind' spring to mind.


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## Sandstone1 (29 October 2020)

jenniehodges2001 said:



			I know someone who used to puppy walk for a local hunt down South. 

They had electronic gates to the yard entrance which opened by the driver pressing a remote control button they kept in their car.  The one day as the pups were running free on the yard with the yard owners  dog, one of the liveries came through the gate.  One of the pupplies ran through the open gate and escaped onto the lane, yet the yard owners dog stood routed to the spot as he knew he wasn't allowed out of the gate!The yard owner grabbed a lunge whip and he walked over to the gate, the puppy materialised and the yard owner gave him a crack across the back with the lunge whip. 

Whilst the whip might have hurt the pup at the time, it would certainly have been a lot more hurt had it been hit by a car.The pup always steered clear of the gate after that, it remembered the consequence when it ran onto the lane.  Job done.  It didn't live in fear of the yard owner after that, in fact ten minutes later it went over to him for a fuss.  Hardly psychologically damaged for life! I really don't see how reacting like that is bad for an animal if it potentially saves their lives.  The saying 'you have to be cruel to be kind' spring to mind.
		
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Probably easier and kinder just to teach a recall.   Violence and physical punishment is just a lazy and pointless way.  Its old  fashioned and out dated.  People will say its the way they have always done it but times move on.
Positive reinforcement is a much better way.   We used to send children down the mines and up chimneys but we dont do that any more!  I just think some people like to dominate and be cruel.  There are better ways.


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## skinnydipper (29 October 2020)

jenniehodges2001 said:



			The yard owner grabbed a lunge whip and he walked over to the gate, the puppy materialised and the yard owner gave him a crack across the back with the lunge whip.
		
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If someone did that to another person it would be called assault.



jenniehodges2001 said:



			It didn't live in fear of the yard owner after that, in fact ten minutes later it went over to him for a fuss.
		
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Appeasement behaviour.


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## jenniehodges2001 (29 October 2020)

You know what would really be interesting, if we put a poll on here?  Do you smack/tap your horse or dog to reprimand it?  A simple yes or no.

I think you would get around 75% saying yes.  I'm not clever enough to know how to create a poll so maybe someone on here would.  One vote per person mind.


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## {97702} (29 October 2020)

Or perhaps we could just accept that people have different views on the subject, are entitled to hold and express those views, and move on? I think this has really been discussed at length now, and whilst I wouldn’t dream of suggesting what anyone should or shouldn’t post on the forum I don’t think further posts are adding much value or anything new?


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## Clodagh (29 October 2020)

jenniehodges2001 said:



			You know what would really be interesting, if we put a poll on here?  Do you smack/tap your horse or dog to reprimand it?  A simple yes or no.

I think you would get around 75% saying yes.  I'm not clever enough to know how to create a poll so maybe someone on here would.  One vote per person mind.
		
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I think beating a puppy with a whip (or even, to be accurate, one good crack) is not something I have ever seen anyone do, or even consider. If puppies do something wrong it is 100% our fault for not setting them up right.
We walked hound puppies for years and yes they kept you on your toes but we never, ever hit them. I cannot imagine any hunt wanting their hounds frightened of whips? I know an adult hound may get rated if it does something really bad but generally the whip is a guide to them (stay behind this line, keep away from here) not a weapon.
I don't think that is a very good example of why hurting a dog is a good thing.


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## Pearlsasinger (29 October 2020)

Clodagh said:



			I think beating a puppy with a whip (or even, to be accurate, one good crack) is not something I have ever seen anyone do, or even consider. If puppies do something wrong it is 100% our fault for not setting them up right.
We walked hound puppies for years and yes they kept you on your toes but we never, ever hit them. I cannot imagine any hunt wanting their hounds frightened of whips? I know an adult hound may get rated if it does something really bad but generally the whip is a guide to them (stay behind this line, keep away from here) not a weapon.
I don't think that is a very good example of why hurting a dog is a good thing.
		
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And if it were an appropriate example, the whip should have been used immediately the pup crossed the boundary, not when it was on its way back!


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## Cortez (29 October 2020)

Clodagh said:



			I think beating a puppy with a whip (or even, to be accurate, one good crack) is not something I have ever seen anyone do, or even consider. If puppies do something wrong it is 100% our fault for not setting them up right.
We walked hound puppies for years and yes they kept you on your toes but we never, ever hit them. I cannot imagine any hunt wanting their hounds frightened of whips? I know an adult hound may get rated if it does something really bad but generally the whip is a guide to them (stay behind this line, keep away from here) not a weapon.
I don't think that is a very good example of why hurting a dog is a good thing.
		
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Umm, have you ever seen a kennel huntsman or huntsman working with hounds or young entry?


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## scats (29 October 2020)

jenniehodges2001 said:



			I know someone who used to puppy walk for a local hunt down South.  

They had electronic gates to the yard entrance which opened by the driver pressing a remote control button they kept in their car.  The one day as the pups were running free on the yard with the yard owners  dog, one of the liveries came through the gate.  One of the pupplies ran through the open gate and escaped onto the lane, yet the yard owners dog stood routed to the spot as he knew he wasn't allowed out of the gate!The yard owner grabbed a lunge whip and he walked over to the gate, the puppy materialised and the yard owner gave him a crack across the back with the lunge whip.  

Whilst the whip might have hurt the pup at the time, it would certainly have been a lot more hurt had it been hit by a car.The pup always steered clear of the gate after that, it remembered the consequence when it ran onto the lane.  Job done.  It didn't live in fear of the yard owner after that, in fact ten minutes later it went over to him for a fuss.  Hardly psychologically damaged for life! I really don't see how reacting like that is bad for an animal if it potentially saves their lives.  The saying 'you have to be cruel to be kind' spring to mind.
		
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Would the pup not associate the punishment with coming back though?  How would it know that the punishment was linked to it going through the gate and onto the road, and not for returning?


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## Clodagh (29 October 2020)

Cortez said:



			Umm, have you ever seen a kennel huntsman or huntsman working with hounds or young entry?
		
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I have yes, my husband used to hunt hounds. I've only been to a few kennels though and not seen every huntsman in every scenario, I can only speak as I find.


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## palo1 (29 October 2020)

Clodagh said:



			I think beating a puppy with a whip (or even, to be accurate, one good crack) is not something I have ever seen anyone do, or even consider. If puppies do something wrong it is 100% our fault for not setting them up right.
We walked hound puppies for years and yes they kept you on your toes but we never, ever hit them. I cannot imagine any hunt wanting their hounds frightened of whips? I know an adult hound may get rated if it does something really bad but generally the whip is a guide to them (stay behind this line, keep away from here) not a weapon.
I don't think that is a very good example of why hurting a dog is a good thing.
		
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I quite agree.  Some huntsmen rate their hounds physically but the best very, very, very rarely use a whip with hounds for anything other than getting their attention or directing them.  It is a pet hate of mine - both people thinking that hounds are controlled by a whip and those that use a whip for something that training should have achieved.


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## planete (29 October 2020)

I used to help with a pack of basset hounds forty-five years ago and any hound who tried to go off on a scent during exercise got a crack of the hunting whip carried by the person in charge (not me).  No idea what goes on now.


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## palo1 (29 October 2020)

planete said:



			I used to help with a pack of basset hounds forty-five years ago and any hound who tried to go off on a scent during exercise got a crack of the hunting whip carried by the person in charge (not me).  No idea what goes on now.
		
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I might be being pedantic (lol!) but the crack of the whip is for the noise which certainly can startle an errant hound.  It is a very useful tool!! I have seen huntsmen hit their hounds with a whip but not every huntsman trains like that.  Our current huntsman is pretty furious if anyone touches a hound with a whip tbh but he prefers praise (and biscuits) as training tools...


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## Clodagh (30 October 2020)

planete said:



			I used to help with a pack of basset hounds forty-five years ago and any hound who tried to go off on a scent during exercise got a crack of the hunting whip carried by the person in charge (not me).  No idea what goes on now.
		
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But not when they were puppies. When you think huntsmen can control 40 odd large, driven ‘dogs’ without a lead or whistle and most people can’t manage one pet in the park they do have to know what is unacceptable.
Hounds go out on walk to be turned into confident, curious and outgoing people, ready to join the pack and have a career.
Huntsmen rarely hit hounds, they need to be ‘God’ and that is not achieved by cowing them. They crack the whip at them and if they do try to take the pack off on a fun run out on exercise the instigator might well have had a flick.


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## palo1 (30 October 2020)

Clodagh said:



			But not when they were puppies. When you think huntsmen can control 40 odd large, driven ‘dogs’ without a lead or whistle and most people can’t manage one pet in the park they do have to know what is unacceptable.
Hounds go out on walk to be turned into confident, curious and outgoing people, ready to join the pack and have a career.
Huntsmen rarely hit hounds, they need to be ‘God’ and that is not achieved by cowing them. They crack the whip at them and if they do try to take the pack off on a fun run out on exercise the instigator might well have had a flick.
		
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This.


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## Quoth (30 October 2020)

Efficacy aside, you’ve got to be fairly callous to take a whip to a puppy.


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## jenniehodges2001 (30 October 2020)

Quoth said:



			Efficacy aside, you’ve got to be fairly callous to take a whip to a puppy.
		
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I'm going to bow out of this post now.... I'm feeling exhausted.


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## skinnydipper (30 October 2020)

jenniehodges2001 said:



			Yes he should have let the damn puppy get struck by a car and not made any effort to control it.  Point taken about it getting struck when it came back but its much better for one small crack than death..... or so I would have thought.

Clodagh how on earth to you go from "the yard owner gave him a crack across the back with the lunge whip" to "beating a puppy with a whip".

Its  not being callous giving it one good crack, what would have been more callous would have been to just not bother or ask it to stand in the naughty corner 

Anyway I've had just about enough of this now. We need to get things into context and live in the real world.....
		
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Quoth was being kind, describing it as callous.  It was brutal.

Clodagh knows more about dogs, and training dogs, than you will ever know.

You know zilch about training, how to train or the importance of timing.


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## jenniehodges2001 (30 October 2020)

skinnydipper said:



			Quoth was being kind, describing it as callous.  It was brutal.

Clodagh knows more about training dogs than you will ever know.

You know zilch about training, how to train and the importance of timing.
		
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I actually deleted the reply because I can't be bothered with it anymore but i am going to reply to your reply to my deleted post as I am truly fascinated to know how you know I know zilch about training.  You actually personally know me do you?  Amazing.....

I related a story about what happened.  I didn't say that it was the perfect time to crack the dog with the lunge whip as it was coming through the gate, for the simple reason I have never and will never hit my horse if it breaks loose and escapes and I catch it again as it defeats the object.  Same with the dog.  Again I was relaying a story. I didn't accuse Clodagh of not knowing how to train dogs, I actually quoted her very words!! I did say it didn't do the dog any harm and it did not repeat its behaviour.  This I believe wholeheartedly.  

So please stop accusing me of things.  I find your attitude very strange and your tone extremely sanctimonious and holier than thou.


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## Clodagh (30 October 2020)

jenniehodges, we all love debate, or we wouldn't be on a forum! I'll debate to the cows come home, don't throw your toys out the pram if someone doesn't agree with you.

SD and I rarely agree on anything! We still debate though.


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## jenniehodges2001 (2 November 2020)

Clodagh said:



			jenniehodges, we all love debate, or we wouldn't be on a forum! I'll debate to the cows come home, don't throw your toys out the pram if someone doesn't agree with you.

SD and I rarely agree on anything! We still debate though.
		
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I'm certainly not throwing my toys out of my pram, I am saying what I feel about Skinny Dipper.  To say someone doesn't know anything about something when they *don't even know that person* is the most idiotic statement known to mankind and I am still chuckling about how daft a statement that was to make all these days later.  And that you know more than me??? How EXACTLY does she know that??  Maybe she would like to share her physic powers and come up with the lottery numbers??

  Crackers.  Totally.


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## Sandstone1 (2 November 2020)

jenniehodges2001 said:



			I'm certainly not throwing my toys out of my pram, I am saying what I feel about Skinny Dipper.  To say someone doesn't know anything about something when they *don't even know that person* is the most idiotic statement known to mankind and I am still chuckling about how daft a statement that was to make all these days later.  And that you know more than me??? How EXACTLY does she know that??  Maybe she would like to share her physic powers and come up with the lottery numbers??

  Crackers.  Totally.  

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Id say that she clearly knows more than you from some of your posts.  Not least from quoting Caesar Millan!  Anyone that thinks he knows what hes doing instantly shows they dont know what they are on about!


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