# Should we see a difference yet?



## Eriskayowner (26 February 2012)

My beautiful 30 month golden retriever x Labrador bitch (in my avatar) was mated with a friend's black pedigree lab coming up 4 weeks ago. 

Amber is incredibly fit - she's pure muscle as she's fed only what she needs (cannot bear overweight dogs), and gets lots of exercise. 

We don't know yet if she is pregnant but are going to get her scanned next week. Should she be starting to look bigger yet?

She's slightly off her food, but she's not food orientated anyway. She's slightly more lethargic than usual but no other changes. 

Any educated guesses?!


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## s4sugar (26 February 2012)

Not too late to book a spay.

Just why was the mating done?

Sorry but irresponsible breeding really angers me.


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## EAST KENT (26 February 2012)

mmm, me too..hopefully both parents are hip/elbow/eyes screened?


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## Eriskayowner (26 February 2012)

Yes, both are screened and we have homes lined up for any potential pups.


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## s4sugar (26 February 2012)

So how many people want cross breeds rather than well bred puppies & why?


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## Chestnuttymare (26 February 2012)

Eriskayowner said:



			Yes, both are screened and we have homes lined up for any potential pups.
		
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how do you know how many pups she will have?


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## orionstar (26 February 2012)

I've just read this thread and re-read it.  I dont think the poster mentioned that she has iresponsibly bred "mongrel" dogs.  She was merely asking some advice about the situation. I am pleased that you have shown her the advice and support that she needed


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## s4sugar (26 February 2012)

orionstar said:



			I've just read this thread and re-read it.  I dont think the poster mentioned that she has iresponsibly bred "mongrel" dogs.  She was merely asking some advice about the situation. I am pleased that you have shown her the advice and support that she needed 

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Actually she did say her mixed breed had been deliberately mated.


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## Eriskayowner (26 February 2012)

Thanks Orion. 

I hate this part of the forum. 

No, I'm not a mind reader - I do not know how many she's going to potentially have, but 12 or so homes should be enough?!

People want the pups because both dogs are beautiful, have fantastic temperaments, are easy to train, great with children (as they both live in a school boarding house) and are healthier as cross breeds.


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## Eriskayowner (26 February 2012)

Actually s4sugar, I did not say it was deliberate. We were planning on breeding from them at some point but not this soon.


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## s4sugar (26 February 2012)

Eriskayowner said:



			Thanks Orion. 

I hate this part of the forum. 

No, I'm not a mind reader - I do not know how many she's going to potentially have, but 12 or so homes should be enough?!

People want the pups because both dogs are beautiful, have fantastic temperaments, are easy to train, great with children (as they both live in a school boarding house) and are healthier as cross breeds.
		
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Healthier as cross breeds?
No so.
In fact the health issues that labs and goldies have are common to both breeds so this is both inaccurate and misleading.

The parents both live in a school boarding house? What a pity that people who are incapable of basic research are allowed to supervise children.


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## CorvusCorax (26 February 2012)

Look, no one is more into their hips and elbows than I am (and yes I am showing pics of my young dog's plates to all and sundry on my phone because I am a sad git  and no, I have no intention of breeding him)

But there are ways of asking questions/making enquiries/giving advice on health testing/breeding and ways of putting things across, this part of the forum has the potential to be incredibly helpful but it has a bad reputation for a reason.

Maybe I am getting fluffy in my old age and maybe I am being a massive hypocrite, but wading in there does not help anyone learn anything, it just scares them off (even though I strongly disagree that crossbreed = healthier in every instance  especially as pointed out that goldies and labs share a lot of problems and crossing those two breeds does not minimise those risks)


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## orionstar (26 February 2012)

s4sugar said:



			Actually she did say her mixed breed had been deliberately mated.
		
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And because it hasnt got kennel club stamped on its bum it's irresponsibly bred?


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## Jake10 (26 February 2012)

s4sugar said:



			So how many people want cross breeds rather than well bred puppies & why?
		
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As long as they have been health tested and have good homes lined up what does it matter? Not all pedigrees are well bred...


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## s4sugar (26 February 2012)

Jake10 said:



			Are you implying that a crossbred dog can never be well bred? Some crossbred dogs have a far better health record than some of the so called well bred pedigree dogs.
		
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And the cross breed I groomed yesterday had a wry jaw and patella luxation - so?

What I am saying is why breed a crossbreed?


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## Eriskayowner (26 February 2012)

Thanks Orion. 

I give up. I still don't have an answer. I'll carry on feeling my way in the dark. 

If any of you have any horse related problems, I'll try to remember to be just as bloody unhelpful and rude to you .


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## s4sugar (26 February 2012)

Eriskayowner said:



			Thanks Orion. 

I give up. I still don't have an answer. I'll carry on feeling my way in the dark. 

If any of you have any horse related problems, I'll try to remember to be just as bloody unhelpful and rude to you .
		
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Most people research before breeding. It isn't difficult.


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## Jake10 (26 February 2012)

s4sugar said:



			And the cross breed I groomed yesterday had a wry jaw and patella luxation - so?

What I am saying is why breed a crossbreed?
		
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So I've seen several dogs with severe hip dysplasia and my aunts pure bred has an under shot jaw and a hole in her heart.

My point is responsibly bred crosses have as much of a chance at being healthy as a pure bred. There are certain breeds I wouldn't touch regardless of how good the parents health tests were.


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## Eriskayowner (26 February 2012)

s4sugar said:



			The parents both live in a school boarding house? What a pity that people who are incapable of basic research are allowed to supervise children.
		
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How ******ing dare you. I am quite capable of "basic research". What exactly does this have to do with the ability to do my job. I work damned hard at my job and I'm bloody good at it.

Furious now.


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## s4sugar (26 February 2012)

Eriskayowner said:



			How ******ing dare you. I am quite capable of "basic research". What exactly does this have to do with the ability to do my job. I work damned hard at my job and I'm bloody good at it.

Furious now.
		
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If you had done "basic research" you would not be asking. 

QED!

Some of us regularly have to pick up the pieces after irresponsible breeding. However much you love your pets the fact you have bred from a cross breed puts you in the BYB bracket. Are you in a position to take back any puppies at any age? 
What if you get 12 black male puppies - do you have homes then?

There are too many dogs being born - Fact.

The truth is that responsible breeders have cut back on litters over the past few years and only breed to replace or keep their line. 

I don't give a **** about you or your ability to do your job as luckily my children are grown up and not subjected to the current education system. I do worry about the poor souls who have to pick up after ignorant breeding.


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## Dobiegirl (26 February 2012)

OP this is a very emotive subject, quite a few of the regulars are  involved with rescue and are on the sharp end picking up the pieces of other peoples breeding. Your post is not going to fill them with joy and unless you can promise all those puppies responsible homes and take the ones back when it dosnt work out then things will not change.

This is a very friendly supportive forum and is full of posters with many years experience who are only too happy to pass on their knowledge, we are sad and supportive when someone loses their dog and delight in seeing newly purchased photos of puppies who are responsibley bred.


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## Chestnuttymare (26 February 2012)

to answer your original question....I wouldn't expect her to be looking any bigger yet, might be just starting to but not much yet. her teats might look a bit more prominant quite soon. 
I know people are harsh on here, and sometimes possibly a bit too much but so many of them are involved in rescue and see so many x breeds end up in a bad way because people haven't thought things through. I believe that you should take responsibility for the pups  you breed and be able to take any back that you have sold to someone who can't handle an exuberant youngster or that their circumstances change. Not everyone has the facility to do this. This is one of the reasons i have never bred a litter despite having Dobermanns for years. I don't have kennels etc, I am a pet owner who showed my dogs. I also worried that if when my girl was whelping that I wouldn't realise if she was having difficulties and put her at risk and when I did suss that i could get her to a vet in time. Then there is having the facilities to rear a litter or the time to do it.
Too big a responsibility also to find the right homes, it is incredibly hard and I know that my Caras breeder has sent many people packing over the years. 
As for having 12 homes set up, do none of them have a preference of which sex they
want? I wanted a bitch and knew i had the choice of the litter as the breeders are good friends, the litter consisted of 6 boys and 1 girl. I really didn't want a male, was lucky that there was at least 1 girl.  One dobe that I had I could have sold as many pups as she could have produced, i even had strangers come up to me at crufts and ask if I was planning a litter because of her looks and charcter and she was such a diva, I never did it for all the reasons above. I just don't think it is a great reason because they are good looking or have good natures. 
I hope it all goes well for you and your bitch.


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## Spudlet (27 February 2012)

So both dogs are appropriately health tested, the breeds are compatible in size and temperament, and the parents have good temperaments. There are homes lined up and the pups will be socialised. You know what? I'd have one. 

S4sugar, your crack about the OPs job was out of order IMO.


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## elsielouise (27 February 2012)

Hi OP

I too work with children and am also NOT an expert in dog breeding AND I bred my non KC JRT last year and for the same reasons you did with homes all lined up in advance. At about your stage my bitch was also just a bit more lethargic and just a bit different. We had her scanned and saw three pups. She had four so be prepared for that.


It is a shame that the default position for some posters on this part of the board is attack when in fact there is a lot of useful advice here. I too am put off from asking questions or even making observations generally as I too have had a " you are wrong/ over reacting/blah blah 


It alarms me sometimes that in the line of work we are in  ie children we see far more indiscriminate breeding than in the dog world and poor parenting is evidenced in countless Internet forums with very few people asking the "why did you have children?" question when advice is requested.


Just saying.... Not intended to cause friction but I too have felt unwelcome here on occasion but stay as some of it worthwhile and I hope you do too OP.


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## Fools Motto (27 February 2012)

Sorry op that some people have stepped over the line. Simply no need for it.
I wish you and Amber all the luck, and I for another one would like that type of dog. 
Have a hug. X


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## SplashofSoy (27 February 2012)

Spudlet said:



			So both dogs are appropriately health tested, the breeds are compatible in size and temperament, and the parents have good temperaments. There are homes lined up and the pups will be socialised. You know what? I'd have one. 

S4sugar, your crack about the OPs job was out of order IMO.
		
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This.  This view that if its not KC registered pedigree then then people shouldnt breed is a bit over the top. Surely abouts breeding healthy pups with good temprements that fulfil a role in peoples lives (working or pet) not what they look like in terms of the KC standard.  Many pedigree dogs also end up in recues as being bred without enough consideration.  Agree that people should not breed indiscriminatley such as the latest designer dogs fad but OP sounds considered in her approach and not using it as a money making scheme.  

OP hope it all goes well for your dog although can offer no advice on question asked


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## ester (27 February 2012)

Spudlet said:



			So both dogs are appropriately health tested, the breeds are compatible in size and temperament, and the parents have good temperaments. There are homes lined up and the pups will be socialised. You know what? I'd have one. 

S4sugar, your crack about the OPs job was out of order IMO.
		
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absolutely I don't see what the problem is or what else a 'pedigree' tag would bring to this! Am sure I have said it before but as far as I am concerned a dog is a dog is a dog, so long as tested prior to breeding a KC reg wouldn't be important to me. 

The mother is also not a complete random mix being a retriever x.


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## paulineh (27 February 2012)

OP  I'm sorry you have had some nasty replies. there is no need for it. On the whole this forum is fine and helpful. There are just a few that can spoil it.

S4sugar- May be you should take more sugar with it, it may sweeten you up a bit. 

Yes there are a lot of dogs ending up in rescue centres but it does not mean that yours will. 

elsielouise  Have PM'ed you some information.


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## MurphysMinder (27 February 2012)

Ouch some harsh comments.  As others have said as long as both parents have good temperaments and low hip and elbow scores etc, whilst I don't really see the point of crossing labs and goldens (would be pleased if someone would enlighten me) I think there are worse things done.  
To answer your question OP, within a couple of weeks of mating my bitch had changed slightly in character, but as that could just have been post season symptoms I tried not to get excited.  By week 3 she had thickened slightly round the waist, both myself and others thought this but again we decided it could be wishful thinking.  She was scanned at 29 days and shown to be having 7 pups, but it was really another week where I would really confidently have said she was showing in whelp witthout the knowledge from  the scan.  Now at nearly 7 weeks she is waddling round looking most unimpressed with the large belly that gets in the way of running round like a lunatic.
If she is in whelp, I hope everything goes well with your litter, I can thoroughly recommend The Book of the Bitch to be your bible through pregnancy and whelping.


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## ester (27 February 2012)

MM I think the cross is used quite frequently for assistance dogs so there must be something good about it .


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## MurphysMinder (27 February 2012)

Yes sorry, what I meant was in terms of improving health, which is what people often use as the reason for cross breeding, as both breeds seem to have the same health problems, i.e. hips, elbows and eyes.


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## Spudlet (27 February 2012)

When we were researching breeds many moons ago, retrievers were reputed to have slightly calmer demeanours than labs. So I'd guess that assistance dog breeders may be trying to get the calmer temperament combined with the lower maintainence lab coat? That's one possibility that springs to mind for me.


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## Spudlet (27 February 2012)

No, the cross will not eliminate inherent problems MM.  But if the parents are health-tested anyway (assuming the scores are good of course) it's no better or worse than breeding a lab or a retriever IMO.


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## Slinkyunicorn (27 February 2012)

Some of the responses to this post are just  Well ok they are mainly s4ugars responses

It is no wonder fewer people are stopping by AAD these days - and that includes previous 'regulars' as the lecturing on breeding, behaviour and feeding is really over the top in some cases and plain tredious in others. Lighten up and try and give contsructive advice instead of jumping on people - good to know that some people are perfect while the rest of us just struggle through.....


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## Spudlet (27 February 2012)

True! I find fewer and fewer reasons to be here these days. I don't feel I could ask a question if I needed too, which is a shame since it was this place that helped me crack recall.


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## Toffee44 (27 February 2012)

Slinkyunicorn said:



			Some of the responses to this post are just  Well ok they are mainly s4ugars responses

It is no wonder fewer people are stopping by AAD these days - and that includes previous 'regulars' as the lecturing on breeding, behaviour and feeding is really over the top in some cases and plain tredious in others. Lighten up and try and give contsructive advice instead of jumping on people - good to know that some people are perfect while the rest of us just struggle through.....

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Like LIKE LIKE!!!!!!


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## Slinkyunicorn (27 February 2012)

Also meant to say OP I hope it all goes well for your girly and I for one would like to see lots of piccies of her cute puppies when they arrive


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## Hedwards (27 February 2012)

Slinkyunicorn said:



			Some of the responses to this post are just  Well ok they are mainly s4ugars responses

It is no wonder fewer people are stopping by AAD these days - and that includes previous 'regulars' as the lecturing on breeding, behaviour and feeding is really over the top in some cases and plain tredious in others. Lighten up and try and give contsructive advice instead of jumping on people - good to know that some people are perfect while the rest of us just struggle through.....

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Well said Slinks (and Spudlet - loving your earlier post too - stupid computer refuses to do multiple quotes)

If the OP has had all health checks done, and scores were good, they have homes lined up, I really cannot understand some of the downright spiteful responses on here, particularly about the OP's ability to do their job!

OP i have no experience, so cannot answer your original question, however best of luck!


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## Inthemud (27 February 2012)

I've never bred a litter, but I've heard "The Book of the Bitch" recommended by many people who do.


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## Amymay (27 February 2012)

OP really looking forward to seeing your beautiful puppies when they arrive.

Simply ignore the haters......


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## Cedars (27 February 2012)

S4sugar you have been literally disgusting on this post. You should be ashamed of yourself. Horrible piece of work. 

OP- no idea about breeding, but good luck! Would love to see the photos  xxx


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## s4sugar (27 February 2012)

Cedars said:



			S4sugar you have been literally disgusting on this post. You should be ashamed of yourself. Horrible piece of work. 

OP- no idea about breeding, but good luck! Would love to see the photos  xxx
		
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Excuse me?
I have been "literally disgusting"? The education system is worse than I thought. 

Truth hurts doesn't it?  
I have nothing to be ashamed of as I am not the back yard breeder producing puppies that have no planned future and I could only comment on what the OP wrote. 

I spent much of my Sunday assisting a misalliance litter, not mine, with a difficult whelping & eventual C section which the bitch owner hadn't got the money for and then showing how to hand feed the pups in case the bitch didn't accept them.

All those pups were black and "nobody wants a black one"

If all these people with "no idea about breeding" would stop supporting or enabling the perpetrators of cute puppy production maybe some of us in rescue could stand down & have time to ourselves.


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## Amymay (27 February 2012)

s4sugar said:



			I am not the back yard breeder producing puppies that have *no planned future *and I could only comment on what the OP wrote.
		
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These puppies have homes lined up, so do have a future.





			I spent much of my Sunday assisting a misalliance litter, not mine, with a difficult whelping & eventual C section which the bitch owner hadn't got the money for and then showing how to hand feed the pups in case the bitch didn't accept them.
		
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And?? How is that relevant to the OP??


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## MurphysMinder (27 February 2012)

A lot of us on here may not agree with cross breed mating, and if someone posts on here considering doing such a mating I would be the first to try and talk them out of it by pointing out all the problems.
In this case however the OP has health tested (presumably with good results) parents and the bitch is possibly in whelp.  Imho it is far better at this stage to offer helpful advice rather than frighten the poster away.  We all know lots of things can go wrong in whelping, I am stressing about them myself with 2 weeks to go for Evie, at least if the OP feels able to continue posting and asking questions those of us with experience can offer advice and if heaven forbid there should be problems advise her how to deal with them.


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## ester (27 February 2012)

s4sugar said:



			I have nothing to be ashamed of as I am not the back yard breeder producing puppies that have no planned future and I could only comment on what the OP wrote.
		
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your initial comment though presumed that the op was irresponsibly breeding. It would be more appropriate and polite to perhaps ask the questions you are concerned about re parental testing/homes lined up before going in all guns blazing and lambasting the op.


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## Willeeckers (27 February 2012)

ester said:



			your initial comment though presumed that the op was irresponsibly breeding. It would be more appropriate and polite to perhaps ask the questions you are concerned about re parental testing/homes lined up before going in all guns blazing and lambasting the op.
		
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Well said,

This thread (or at least certain comments) are truly

Poor OP I hope it all goes well for you and your lovely girl, FWIW we bred a litter from our Labrador, over 11 yrs ago now. In the early stages of pregnancy I seem to remember her just being a little quieter than usual, like your girl she was very trim and she didn't really show until the last 2-3 weeks although she only had a litter of 3.


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## rhino (27 February 2012)

Slinkyunicorn said:



			Some of the responses to this post are just  Well ok they are mainly s4ugars responses

It is no wonder fewer people are stopping by AAD these days - and that includes previous 'regulars' as the lecturing on breeding, behaviour and feeding is really over the top in some cases and plain tredious in others. Lighten up and try and give contsructive advice instead of jumping on people - good to know that some people are perfect while the rest of us just struggle through.....

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Another one who won't post in here due to the behaviour of a few (although one in particular ). And I'm brave enough to post in NL on a daily basis


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## Spudlet (27 February 2012)

This used to be the friendly part of the forum too


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## Bendyhorse (27 February 2012)

OP good luck with your girl and any potential pups. I am sure your sensible approach at being prepared before the arrivals will fair you well. I too hope to see the pictures and don't take anything to heart, the beauty of a forum like this is that there is some fab advice that you can take home, the rest are just words that can be forgotten or dismissed.

xxx


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## Spring Feather (28 February 2012)

From what I remember, when one of my dogs was pregnant years ago she remained a very active dog, slim and muscular, the whole way through her pregnancy.  It was probably only in the last 2 weeks that she started to look pregnant.  The hair around her teats became sparse and she had a rounder shape to her when she was lying upside down.  When she was standing up it was barely noticable that she was pregnant.  Like you I also had homes lined up for the puppies.  Like you, so many people loved the bitch that they wanted one of her puppies.  I ended up having too many homes lined up for the amount of puppies my bitch had.  How exciting it is having puppies! I hope all goes well


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## mollichop (28 February 2012)

I'll come out of the woodwork to admit that I no longer enjoy posting in this section as much as I used to.

S4sugar - I totally respect the work that you do and agree with you re backyard breeders and the sheer saturation of puppies in this country. 

However, as others have said OP is not directly responsible for that.

Fingers crossed for your litter OP but no advice re the bith as i've never bred. If she is the girl in your sig then I have to say she looks lovely and trim


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## Eriskayowner (10 April 2012)

Ok I'm being very brave here . . .

Thank you to the supportive people who posted helpful things on here - I did read them recently and was very grateful. 

Amber had her pups on 1st April - typical!!

We built her her whelping area the day before (she wasn't due 'til the 4th but she was looking imminent!!) and put her in on the Saturday night. It was her crate that she's used to, covered with blankets and horse rugs to keep her warm and dry outside. 

I heard some whining at about 1am which then stopped. I checked her at 5am to hear some squeaking noises and 4 pups. I checked her again at 7am to find 7 pups. 

All clean. All feeding. All squeaking. And amber doing everything she should have been doing. 

She's been the perfect mum. She's protective but not neurotic. It took 36 hours to get her to leave them to have a pee and a poo but she's happy to leave them for longer now (we leave the crate door open and allow her a bit of freedom). She's also happy to have the pups handled although she'll keep a close eye on them. 

She had 7 pups - 3 yellow girls (2 are darker, one is almost white) and 4 black boys. We have homes for all of them. 

I asked the local vets if they wanted to check mum and pups out but they were happy and said they didn't need to unless there were any problems 

We've put Amber on a puppy mix and bought some ready-brek to put the pups on soon (we were recommended this when mother bought her puppy years ago). We have also got the wormer for next weekend (panacur paste, as recommended by the vets). 

Just thought I'd update those that were supportive. 

Below is a link to the Facebook album. 

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150720200620559.432763.515160558&type=3&l=ca60bf41a2

I have been warned that I'll get slated for not having blankets/towels under the pups - amber kept throwing them out. We have now taken the basket out (as the pups are gaining weight fast - they're all between 590g and 710g) so they're on Amber's mattress with LOTS of towels and blankets around. 

Hope you like them.


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## Cedars (10 April 2012)

Unbelievably cute! Thanks for coming back x


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## quirky (10 April 2012)

How lovely


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## Slinkyunicorn (10 April 2012)

O WOW!

She is gaw-juss and as for her puppies.......................................................



MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPS!

I would like all of the chunky monkeys thankies

She is obvioulsy being a very good mum - lots more piccies thankies

In fact start another thread and post them


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## Sandstone1 (10 April 2012)

ester said:



			MM I think the cross is used quite frequently for assistance dogs so there must be something good about it .
		
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A high % of guide dogs are Lad x GR.
Not going to get involved in the arguement about breeding, but just wanted to point this out.
Guide dogs do however health test all breediing stock and they are first crosses ie both parents full Lab And GR


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## Spudlet (10 April 2012)

They're lovely.


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## NeverSayNever (10 April 2012)

congrats on the pups, they are gorgeous and so good they all have homes  Mum looks so content 

have you done plenty of research about weaning and using reddybrek?   Id do a bit of googling if you havent already as there are much better alternatives and milk is not great. Just a thought, congrats again


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## Eriskayowner (10 April 2012)

Thanks Never Say Never. 

We weren't going to use cows milk but puppy formula with the ready brek. Can look at alternatives though 

Glad people think they're cute  

They are very happy and healthy


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## dunthing (10 April 2012)

Gorgeous Pups and very clever Mum. She looks just like my old girl. We are just about to pick up our new black lab pup, who was NOT an accidental mating. So pleased that it's all worked out well for Mum, pups and for you, after all the nasty comments.


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## ladyt25 (10 April 2012)

Please put the pics on here not the FB link as I can't see at work!!! 

For what it's worth (I have only just come across this thread), I see no difference really with breeding healthy x breeds or pure bred dogs to be honest if they have homes waiting for them. At least 2 or 3 posters over the last few weeks have bred some pure breeds and they did not get the same slating of there being "too many dogs being bred"!!!

I don't think it matters if it's a x or a pure bred, they can still end up in numpty homes or rescues.  You only have to look at rescue centres - they are no all cross breeds in there!!


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## Vizslak (10 April 2012)

No ladyt because they are all well and responsibly bred litters with relevant health checks for the parents and homes waiting for them. I havent commented on this thread before because I cant be bothered to keep up with this constant bickering about dog breeding, people air their ligitimate views and then get shot down for it...ok I agree some posters are a little blunt in their delivery. Apparently though some members of the forum would still rather see cross bred pups irresponsibly bred than a litter of carefully thought out pure breds. Nout so queer as folk.


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## ester (10 April 2012)

EAST KENT said:



			mmm, me too..hopefully both parents are hip/elbow/eyes screened?

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Eriskayowner said:



			Yes, both are screened and we have homes lined up for any potential pups.
		
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Vizslak said:



			No ladyt because they are all well and responsibly bred litters with relevant health checks for the parents and homes waiting for them.
		
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As per the quotes above though these dogs had the relevant checks and the homes lined up for pups... 

OP They are lovely!


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## Vizslak (10 April 2012)

and according to the comments under the pics certainly its untrue that they had homes lined up....


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## CAYLA (10 April 2012)

No comment re the breeding, if you can offer back up (for life) for each and very pup, any age and any issue then fair play........is she outside? in a crate? does she not have a whelp box and space to get out and walk around, she looks rather cramped there
Apologies if Im looking at the pictures wrong.


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## Dobiegirl (10 April 2012)

Vizslak said:



			and according to the comments under the pics certainly its untrue that they had homes lined up....
		
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If anyone cares to look on facebook on the op you will see she said on 3rd April that the black boys were still looking for homes, not as she said they all had homes to go to.


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## GinaGem (10 April 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			If anyone cares to look on facebook on the op you will see she said on 3rd April that the black boys were still looking for homes, not as she said they all had homes to go to.

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Yeah i noticed the same.  Bit confused why the dog got moved outside to have her puppies unless i've got the wrong idea?


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## Vizslak (10 April 2012)

Its a bizarre post all round. I love the way the OP thought she would get slated for having no sheets and towels...I wouldnt have sheets and towels anywhere near newborn pups, good job the bitch did chuck em out! Moving a dog outside in an open crate with a horse rug over it and no heat source is the most bizarre practice I have ever heard of, we used to move outside dogs inside...never heard of anyone doing it the other way round.


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## Vizslak (10 April 2012)

In light of the fact this second post is attached to the first post and the way that deteriorated....although I feel upset for those of you that stuck up for the OP...do I think these pups parents are genuinely health tested...no...do I think the OP had 12 homes lined up...definately not....that aside, I shall try to make my previous points more constructive. 
OP, is there a reason you moved her outside to have the puppies? Do they have any source of heat? Is the cage door shut all the time?
Puppies cannot regulate their temperature for the first weeks of life, they must have a consistant heat source to keep them neither to warm or too cool, in such a confined space the mother is obviously keeping them warm but outside with nowhere to keep warm a puppy straying away from the mother will chill very quickly. They should be somewhere warm with no draughts ideally.
Could I suggest that at very least you purchase some vet bed for the bottom of the cage and chuck everything else (blankets, towels, mattress etc) out. The trouble with loose bedding is there is a large risk of suffocation by a puppy crawling underneath etc and in a small space like the crate the bitch could easily lie on one and kill it. I think you have been very lucky indeed to have had no fatalities so far by keeping the bitch and pups in the mannar you have been. At just over a week old its not too late to change your practices before the luck runs out.


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## CAYLA (10 April 2012)

What vizzy said, Im sorry but a bitch and pups kept like that makes it more unbelievable that there was any health checks involved and the fact that homes where apparently in abundance now there seems to be pups needing homes!
Was this whelping even prepared for?


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## ester (10 April 2012)

duly noted . I will still think the same re the pedigree/non pedigree argument _if_ done correctly though .


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## Eriskayowner (10 April 2012)

Both dogs have had health checks. 

Homes have all been found for all the pups but were finding one more as we might have to move house (unexpectedly) in 3 months time and it's hard to find somewhere to rent with a young puppy. If I get my way then I'm moving to our other house and I'll keep the black boy as planned (who will be neutered). 

Yes, the pups are outside but it's very warm out there - the crate is completely insulated and they are absolutely fine. 

Yes, I'm probably making mistakes, but no-one's perfect.


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## Vizslak (10 April 2012)

I dont have a problem with for example working cross breeds, springer x cocker etc....if as you say all is done correctly. I dont like the designer crosses being bred really because there is no point to it and each new cross has a high price tag and gets more muppets breeding irresponsibley for the cash...but thats by the by, I can even tolerate a designer cross (just) if its done correctly.


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## Vizslak (10 April 2012)

Eriskayowner said:



			Both dogs have had health checks. 

Homes have all been found for all the pups but were finding one more as we might have to move house (unexpectedly) in 3 months time and it's hard to find somewhere to rent with a young puppy. If I get my way then I'm moving to our other house and I'll keep the black boy as planned (who will be neutered). 

Yes, the pups are outside but it's very warm out there - the crate is completely insulated and they are absolutely fine. 

Yes, I'm probably making mistakes, but no-one's perfect.
		
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Why does it say on the third of april...All the yellows have homes now just the black boys need homes...you are also blatently trying to persuade friends on there to have them?! You said you had 12 homes...that was clearly a lie. 
How is the crate insulated?!! Its an open wire crate??
You live in the same county as me...how is it warmer where you are than me? I wouldnt chuck my pups out in the garden in this weather (they are 3 days younger than yours)


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## CAYLA (10 April 2012)

Eriskayowner said:



			Both dogs have had health checks. 

Homes have all been found for all the pups but were finding one more as we might have to move house (unexpectedly) in 3 months time and it's hard to find somewhere to rent with a young puppy. If I get my way then I'm moving to our other house and I'll keep the black boy as planned (who will be neutered). 

Yes, the pups are outside but it's very warm out there - the crate is completely insulated and they are absolutely fine. 

Yes, I'm probably making mistakes, but no-one's perfect.
		
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Hard to find a house to rent with 1 puppy you say?? what happens if 2 or 3 purchasers say in a months time "we have to return out pups" will the landlord allow that many
If you live in the same Country as me...then im sorry it is not warm enough for pups outside in an exposed crate, my adult kennel dogs have coats on (I have never coated my dogs ever) this tells you how bad the weather has been!!
What is the crate insulated with

Im sorry it smacks of an ill thought out mating and it does not looks like back up will/can be offered and that is indeed where I will always comment.

You say vet checks!! others where asking about TESTS, not checks, health tests!


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## Eriskayowner (10 April 2012)

With regards to amber being cramped, we have built her an area outside her crate to allow her to come and go as she pleases to stretch her legs. She also has access to the house although she, obviously, chooses to be with her pups. 

She wouldn't leave the crate for the first 36 hours which is why she looked cramped to begin with. We've taken the blue basked our now to give them all some space. The crate is HUGE. it's plenty big enough for her to lie down and stretch out fully and have plenty of space for the pups.


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## Vizslak (10 April 2012)

why was she not whelped inside? I just dont understand why you would put a house dog outside to whelp??


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## CAYLA (10 April 2012)

Eriskayowner said:



			Both dogs have had health checks. 

Homes have all been found for all the pups but were finding one more as we might have to move house (unexpectedly) in 3 months time and it's hard to find somewhere to rent with a young puppy. If I get my way then I'm moving to our other house and I'll keep the black boy as planned (who will be neutered). 

Yes, the pups are outside but it's very warm out there - the crate is completely insulated and they are absolutely fine. 

Yes, I'm probably making mistakes, but no-one's perfect.
		
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I think the biggest mistake you made was to breed in the first place.
The back up? can you please tell you you can and will offer each and very puppy back up for LIFE.


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## Vizslak (10 April 2012)

Eriskayowner said:



			Yes, I'm probably making mistakes, but no-one's perfect.
		
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No which is why I bit my tongue and tried to offer you some constructive advice. As a minimum you need to get the bitch indoors (or in a stable/shed at very least) and ensure she has the correct bedding that poses no danger to the pups and an adequate heat source in the form of a heat pad or heat lamp. 
The above is how to correct your mistakes before they turn into disasters.


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## Dizzykizzy (10 April 2012)

I too was slated when I bred from my bitch 4 years ago.
We were lucky, we did find homes for all of them (12!) and I am still in touch with them all, they know that I would have any back in a heartbeat if I had to but luckily they all seem settled and several in working homes too. We even had a first birthday party for them and all but one made the trip, some from the other end of the country.
What I find upsetting is that OP felt it was ok to leave her while she whelped, we were there for the delivery of all of ours and slept beside the whelping box for a week until we felt they were safe, even then they were checked through the night. We had a heat pad which the pups gravitated on and off when necessary, it was June and warm but they were indoors.

Incidentally, we fed ready brek as advised by my vet at the time. It is a better option than weetabix which many people choose though dogs don't easily digest wheat. Please don't give cows milk though, we used goats milk bought powdered and made up fresh for each meal.
If I were to do it again I would wean onto raw I think as that is what we feed now.

Good luck OP and pups, I hope you do have homes for them and I hope their hips etc are all fine.


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## Vizslak (10 April 2012)

Dizzykizzy said:



			What I find upsetting is that OP felt it was ok to leave her while she whelped, we were there for the delivery of all of ours and slept beside the whelping box for a week until we felt they were safe, even then they were checked through the night. We had a heat pad which the pups gravitated on and off when necessary, it was June and warm but they were indoors.
		
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Good for you, I am currently very sleep deprived from puppy watch...this should be standard practice. OP seriously you could have lost your bitch and the pups by leaving her outside and checking her twice through the night. You really were not/are not prepared for this litter. Its very concerning.


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## Elle123 (10 April 2012)

Some very sound advice from Viz. Tried to give the benefit of the doubt but i'm sorry but the cramped conditions got to me the most, the risks a huge to the pups. Yes she can potentially get out to stretch her legs, but even her getting up out of that bed could injure a pup. I'm am not judging the reasons behind the litter etc, they are already here after all, I am concerned for the bitches and puppies welfare now. Changes that can be done, not just suggesting we all make mistakes etc.

Best of luck with them


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## MurphysMinder (10 April 2012)

I felt some had been a bit harsh when you first posted OP, but I have to admit your post and pictures have concerned me.   Your bitch and pups just are not in ideal conditions, as suggested by Vizslak please try and move her indoors, either to the house or at least a stable, and buy some vet bed.  
I would recommend you wean them on to a decent puppy food rather than readybrek, the sugar content is not ideal for young pups.  Also are you saying their weight is around 700g at a week old?  I may be wrong but I would imagine that lab x retriever pups would not be dissimilar weight to GSD pups,in which case that weight seems quite low, does your bitch have plenty of milk?
To the comment that those of us who have bred pedigree litters are no different to those breeding crosses as  we are still putting puppies into the world, I would just say that everyone who is having one of my pups is having one because they want one of my specific line (including someone who is travelling from Spain for one) so no I am not stopping a rescue being rehomed, and I am not touting for new homes on their facebook photos!  I am also happy to post a link here to both parents hip scores, if the OP will do the same.


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## Vizslak (10 April 2012)

I was just thinking that re the weights MM having just weighed mine for the eve (I weigh every eve) I came back to check. Vizzies I would think should weigh less than these pups, they are 3 days younger and over the weight of these pups. I know weights vary but it does seem a tad on the light side which is worth keeping an eye on OP. What were they at birth OP? They should double weight in the first week. Mine have doubled today, day 6.


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## Cinnamontoast (10 April 2012)

Please don't feed readybrek, it's not good to give pups cereal or cow's milk. 

I'm going to add to the reputation of ADD and say I'm horrified that the dam was bred from at 30 months. Poor girl was only a baby herself.


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## MurphysMinder (10 April 2012)

I wouldn't have a problem with breeding from a bitch at 2.5 years CT, for most breeds over 2 is the recommended age, and no older than 4 for a first litter.  I would just like to see bitch and pups in a far better environment.


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## Cinnamontoast (10 April 2012)

MurphysMinder said:



			I wouldn't have a problem with breeding from a bitch at 2.5 years CT, for most breeds over 2 is the recommended age, and no older than 4 for a first litter.  I would just like to see bitch and pups in a far better environment.
		
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Ooh, my bad, apologies all round, I thought she was 1.5 years, duh. Facepalm.


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## millimoo (10 April 2012)

I've been lurking on this post, and also initially felt for the OP. However I now gave very real concerns for these puppy's. 
Who in their right mind puts puppies outside... Period? Especially when the photos suggest the dogs are on site at Wellington School, Taunton.
Not only should the OP be concerned about the cold, she should also be worrying about infections etc.
Can't someone call the local dog warden to make sure that the very helpful advise that's been posted recently is followed.
I'm quite shocked that anyone can think bringing pups into the world this way is ok?????


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## Dobiegirl (11 April 2012)

I really think S4Sugar has been vindicated and her instincts were good, Im horrified at the people who have viewed the pictures and commented on what lovely pups and totally missed how they were being raised and in what conditions. Thank god there are enough people on this forum who can see the truth and I share their worries for these puppies.


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## Cedars (11 April 2012)

The conversation between you and Jen under the black puppy photo has just made me so angry


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## ester (11 April 2012)

I'm disappointed with the OP to be fair, when I looked at the pics I didn't think for a minute they would be outside (I didn't click for individual comments) . . . that just seems like the most bizarre and odd thing to do.


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## quirky (11 April 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			I really think S4Sugar has been vindicated and her instincts were good, Im horrified at the people who have viewed the pictures and commented on what lovely pups and totally missed how they were being raised and in what conditions. Thank god there are enough people on this forum who can see the truth and I share their worries for these puppies.
		
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Well I commented that they were lovely but didn't pass comment on the conditions.
Why?
Because as usual the AAD bitches already had their teeth stuck into the OP and I felt sorry for her.

There are ways and means of getting your point across, people being self righteous and condescending isn't the best way imo.

Not everybody knows everything but in AAD, it seems to be a massive no no for anybody to admit what they don't know.

I was quite appalled at Viz's (and others) manner and I'm certainly not surprised that the OP has not returned since her cutting posts.

So, had you all played a little bit nicer, you could have imparted your knowledge to the OP safe in the knowledge she was listening and acting on your advice.

Some of the users on this thread need to think on!


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## MurphysMinder (11 April 2012)

Not seen fb comments but cedars I know how carefully you researched before you got bracken, can you honestly say you were not concerned by those pics of amber in the crate?  I tried to offer op some guidance repuppy rearing but if I'm considered an AAD bitch for my comments then so be it, I would rather that than pretend everything is great.


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## quirky (11 April 2012)

MurphysMinder said:



			but if I'm considered an AAD bitch for my comments then so be it, I would rather that than pretend everything is great.
		
Click to expand...

I wasn't referring to you


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## MurphysMinder (11 April 2012)

quirky said:



			I wasn't referring to you 

Click to expand...

Ah okay, but I have to stand up and be counted with the others who made stronger comments,   
Cedars, I am sorry I thought you were referring to something dobiegirl had said on the fb photos, but I having now looked again at the link I presume you mean the comments between OP and her friend that it would be fine to have a pup and be out all day long!


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## Spudlet (11 April 2012)

I stand by my original remarks based upon the information that was available at that point. If that means I'm next for a slating, so be it.


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## Vizslak (11 April 2012)

quirky said:



			I was quite appalled at Viz's (and others) manner and I'm certainly not surprised that the OP has not returned since her cutting posts.
		
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I apologise, the post made me very angry. I did return and back track my original comments and try to give geniune constructive advice, I think thats quite evident in my posts. 
When I and others are sat with litters of pups at home...when people who have done everything by the book loose pups etc, emotions run very very high. The work, time, effort, money, sleepless nights that have gone into my litter is astounding, others on here its the same for. To see such irresponsibilty by someone with their litter makes my blood boil.
I dont mind if someone wants to be appalled at my comments, the issue here is the bitch and pups are being kept in an appalling mannar and actually you are correct, whilst I was so cross I maybe shouldnt have posted until I felt able to be constructive. I still stand by all that I said though and I'm not sure sugar coated or not the OP wants to hear the advice. 
I can only hope the OP's absence last night was due to her being busy constructing a better environment for dog and pups.


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## Vizslak (11 April 2012)

Spudlet said:



			I stand by my original remarks based upon the information that was available at that point. If that means I'm next for a slating, so be it.
		
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Spud, you will notice I never commented on the original thread, because it went OTT based on the info provided, which I now believe was a pack of lies. Nobody deserves being slated for believing the OP's original claims....I was dubious I admit but there was no point debating it based on the info given.


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## NeverSayNever (11 April 2012)

well i have to hold my hands up and admit that after a quick look at the pics it didnt even cross my mind that they were outside OR shut in the cage all the time, I didnt see any comments about not having homes for them either.  Really hope the OP has sorted more appropriate conditions.


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## s4sugar (11 April 2012)

Q.E.D.


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## Amymay (11 April 2012)

Glad to see that the puppies have arrived safely - they are beautiful.

OP, I too am rather disappointed (and a bit horrified if I'm honest) that you think this is an acceptable way to keep a dog - let alone puppies.

I think that we'll all look forward to your update very shortly that the bitch and puppies have been moved inside in to more appropriate conditions.

I also have to say that if I were your neighbour, and saw your bitch and pup's being kept like this I'd be making a swift call to the relevant welfare authorities.

Really disappointed...........


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## quirky (11 April 2012)

Well yes Sugar, I agree it is a sorry sight .

I was kind of hoping the box/crate would be within an outbuilding but it doesn't look to be the case.

I still maintain there are better ways of educating people than belittling them.

I hope the OP has taken on board the concerns raised.


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## Cedars (11 April 2012)

The conditions are appalling-I only looked at one or two photos of the pups before I posted saying how cute they were, hadn't got to the bigger picture (haha) yet. 

OP, you need to move your puppies into a more sensible environment before one of them gets killed by your negligence. It's as a simple as that-no bitching, no snide comments, just that simple fact. People on here will happily help, and have helped, with loads of advice. X


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## Cedars (11 April 2012)

I've added you as a friend OP-look through my photo albums, you'll find photos of my black lab as a puppy-look at those when they were still with mum-her bedding/layout is spot on, should give you something to follow. X


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## Sandstone1 (11 April 2012)

Does anyone know the address of the person keeping this bitch and puppies? I would certainly be reporting them if I did.


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## millimoo (11 April 2012)

itsmylife said:



			Does anyone know the address of the person keeping this bitch and puppies? I would certainly be reporting them if I did.
		
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Reading OPs other posts and FB link, she is living in accomodation provided by Wellington School in Taunton, and FB clearly gives her name... she's still about on other parts of the forum too, judging by recent posts, but has obviosuly decided not to face up to this thread.

This is a great shame, and I can only hope she has taken heed of the very good advise thats been given.

The latest pic is truly awful and totally unsuitable conditions - i'm actually quite upset by this.


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## MurphysMinder (11 April 2012)

That picture was posted on 1st April Millimoo, it was up there when people were posting "cute" and didn't appear to be bothered about the conditions.   It upset me too, and a few others who posted rather strongly on here and were criticised.
As you say, we can only hope that the OP has taken the advice given and has improved things for her bitch and pups.


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## Amymay (11 April 2012)

MurphysMinder said:



			As you say, we can only hope that the OP has taken the advice given and has improved things for her bitch and pups.
		
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I'm sure she has by now - notwithstanding the less than ideal conditions the dog is being kept in, I can only imagine the dim view the school would take of an animal(s) being kept this way on its property.  

One phone call and all that...................


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## misterjinglejay (11 April 2012)

I haven't said anything up til now as it's quite an emotional subject for me; a few years ago we bred from our samoyed bitch.

She was three years old, and this was to be her one and only litter. We researched the lines, and found the perfect stud dog (obviously both her and the dogs had had hips and eyes done). They did the business, and home we came.

Vet checks, shopping and worry started - we had a perfect place for her to whelp, a lovely new and hygenic whelping box, pippettes, feed for any newborns that needed it, towels, vet bed, thermometer, everything and more!!

The night she went into labour, I was by myself, but had the vet on standby,as well as a friend who was a vet nurse.

To cut a long and distressing story short, our gorgeous bitch had a heart attack, and died. I did mouth to mouth whilst the vet got to us, but it was too late. The vet opened her up, to try and save the pups, but it was just too late. She'd developed hydrops, and thats what caused her death.

OP, I was on your side at the beginning, but seeing those photo's, you should count yourself very lucky that they are all still alive (at least, I hope they are). Your setup is completely unsuitable for a mum and newborns, IMHO; cold, damp and cramped, with multiple places for pups to get squashed, suffocated or just too cold.

You are lucky to have your pups, please look after them properly - they deserve the best chance of life.


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## Vizslak (11 April 2012)

misterjay said:



			I haven't said anything up til now as it's quite an emotional subject for me; a few years ago we bred from our samoyed bitch.

She was three years old, and this was to be her one and only litter. We researched the lines, and found the perfect stud dog (obviously both her and the dogs had had hips and eyes done). They did the business, and home we came.

Vet checks, shopping and worry started - we had a perfect place for her to whelp, a lovely new and hygenic whelping box, pippettes, feed for any newborns that needed it, towels, vet bed, thermometer, everything and more!!

The night she went into labour, I was by myself, but had the vet on standby,as well as a friend who was a vet nurse.

To cut a long and distressing story short, our gorgeous bitch had a heart attack, and died. I did mouth to mouth whilst the vet got to us, but it was too late. The vet opened her up, to try and save the pups, but it was just too late. She'd developed hydrops, and thats what caused her death.

OP, I was on your side at the beginning, but seeing those photo's, you should count yourself very lucky that they are all still alive (at least, I hope they are). Your setup is completely unsuitable for a mum and newborns, IMHO; cold, damp and cramped, with multiple places for pups to get squashed, suffocated or just too cold.

You are lucky to have your pups, please look after them properly - they deserve the best chance of life.
		
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What a heartbeaking story misterjay  So sorry it must have been extremely distressing, I can only imagine. Big hugs x
Thank you for sharing though, this type of incidence is very relative to this post. There are many of us on here who do everything by the book and sadly sometimes still suffer losses, its very emotive to see posts like this where little or no care is taken in breeding practice from start to finish, proudly showing puppies off that are not adequately cared for. You and other members here I know would give anything to have been able to raise your pups and care for the bitch to the highest possible standard and didnt get the chance  Posts like this are a real kick in the teeth to those people.


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## Inthemud (11 April 2012)

How tragic that somone can be such a fool and yet it is the dog and pups that suffer. 

OP should be ashamed of herself.

My sympathies to the poster above who did everything they could and yet lost their dog and pups (sorry, having pressed reply, I can't check your name).


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## MurphysMinder (11 April 2012)

misterjay, what a tragic story, I am so sorry.  It is when this happens to people who have done their very best for their animals that I get angry when I see pictures like those the OP has shown.


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## Vizslak (11 April 2012)

very disappointed eriskayowner is currently browsing around the rest of the forum and not posting new pics of amber and her pups in better living quarters


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## Dobiegirl (11 April 2012)

Misterjay what a desperately sad thing to happen, life is so cruel sometimes.

Today I was lucky enough to see Vizzys Floras pups who are wanting for nothing and are wonderful thriving little dogs. Thats what makes the ops case so sad those little pups outside with their mum on a freezing night, I must live 20miles from her and its so cold Ive lit my woodburner in the lounge and my dogs are basking in the heat.

I too wish the op would come back  on and tell us she has moved them into some kind of shelter with heat.


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## misterjinglejay (11 April 2012)

Thanks so much for all your kind words - it was nearly four years ago, but we still get upset (I can't listen to Dido's White Flag - just too painful as her tail was her white flag!).

I wish the OP would come back and tell us that she's moved the mum and pups inside and into a safer environment. Obviously avoiding the issue will make it go away!!

Good luck, OP's pups - have good, happy lives.


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## echoncarrie (11 April 2012)

Eriskayowner. I very rarely comment about anything, so hopefully can't be labelled as bitchy or anything else.
Your ignorance/cruelty astound me. To leave newborn pups out in all elements, with only their very trapped dam and a rug thrown over their cage is inexcusable. You are, to my mind, the very worst of the BYB. Hope you make your money - but what goes around tends to come around.


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## Cinnamontoast (11 April 2012)

I'm appalled at the size of the crate/bed.  A decent whelping box can't be much to make with pig rails. How sad that a gorgeous dog is shoved outside to whelp. Most breeders I've spoken to have a room set aside for the whelping, stay up all night for the first week or two to ensure the safety of the pups..


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## MurphysMinder (11 April 2012)

My son made Evies whelping box for me, cost around £20.  I don't know about the first week ro two, the pups are 4 weeks old now and my body clock still has me waking up every couple of hours to check the cctv (I have a monitor by the bed), would be quite nice to sleep through now.


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## Vizslak (11 April 2012)

my friend made my whelping box at work...with their spare materials...it was freee!!!
tis a goodun too!  Mind you an open whelping box wouldnt be much more cop than a crate on tyres outside


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## galaxy (11 April 2012)

I find the whole situation desperately sad for that dog and her pups

I wouldn't be surprised if an authority hasn't been round to visit.  I would put money on the fact someone will have reported them.

I just can't understand the logic of someone turfing their beloves bitch out the house to have her pups and shoving her in a crate?  Just can't comprehend it....


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## Lady La La (11 April 2012)

I dont know much about whelping, and boxes and pups... but this has made me quite sad


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## numptynoelle (11 April 2012)

Lady La La said:



			I dont know much about whelping, and boxes and pups... but this has made me quite sad 

Click to expand...

Agreed - I'm as fluffy as it comes when it comes to pups (as I'm sure you're all aware) but the FB photos are a sad contrast to the cosy pup photos I love looking at on here. Feel a bit sick at the thought of them being outside


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## Amymay (11 April 2012)

So, op - after making a complete tw&t in supporting you initially - what news on mum and pups?

You'll know of course that recent weather conditions aren't conducive to having them outside - so I naturally assume that they ate now all warped up and warm inside.  It would be nice to be reassured of this.

The weather will deteriorate again over the next fee days, with a major cold front moving down from the north. Again you'll be aware of this.

So update please as life is about to het a lot harder for those animals.


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## Cinnamontoast (11 April 2012)

Pups can't regulate their own body temperature for the first few weeks.


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## echoncarrie (11 April 2012)

Pups can't regulate body temp. And you can't fix stupid.....


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## learningcurve (11 April 2012)

Lady La La said:



			I dont know much about whelping, and boxes and pups... but this has made me quite sad 

Click to expand...

Me too.


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## reddie (12 April 2012)

I know nothing about breeding dogs, but I can't imagine for one minute that it's healthy to keep an adult dog outside in a crate designed to be used indoors ,covered in blankets and a horse rug.  Let alone week old puppies! Initially I thought people were being rather harsh on the OP, but now I realise she just hasn't thought this through at all.


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## Dobiegirl (12 April 2012)

I was hoping when I came on here this morning that the op would have been on and updated with pictures of Amber and puppies moved into more suitable accommadation.

It was freezing last night and if they were out in that I dont give much for their chances of survival.


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## GinaB (12 April 2012)

The post made me sick. OP, you don't deserve to own a dog.


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## Amymay (12 April 2012)

Dobiegirl said:



			I was hoping when I came on here this morning that the op would have been on and updated with pictures of Amber and puppies moved into more suitable accommodation.

It was freezing last night and if they were out in that I don't give much for their chances of survival.
		
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As she said a little earlier, she's learning - and hopefully what she has learn't from this thread is that the dog and pups need to be inside - warm, dry and comfortable.  I have every confidence they are now inside.


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## millimoo (12 April 2012)

amymay said:



			I have every confidence they are now inside.
		
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I really hope so amymay... the weather is so awful, and its freezing at night
Shame she won't put our minds at rest, as I know pretty much everyone has been very worried about these pups and the less than ideal conditions.

The majority have taken her a face value, and taken the time to give excellent advise - the least she can do is let us know she's addressed the living arrangements...


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## foxy1 (12 April 2012)

How terribly sad


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## Vizslak (13 April 2012)

Still no reply to those all those of us concerned about these pups? No justifications...or preferabley proof that improvements have been made? Come on Eriskayowner, your silence is serving to prove only how little you care.


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## Vizslak (13 April 2012)

Amazing, this post comes back to the top of the board and *POOF* as if by magic eriskayowner disappears offline again. 
Maybe shes gone to take us some new photos


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## Lizzie :) (13 April 2012)

Wow. i am totally shocked by some of the comments on this thread!! all Eriskayowner wanted was some advice but all she got was some horrible remarks!!  people could have been a bit kinder!!!


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## Vizslak (13 April 2012)

friend of hers are you Lizzie? Have you seen the pictures of the bitch and pups?! Eriskayowner has not asked for advice, all she has done is ignore the advice given to her.


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## Cedars (13 April 2012)

Still outside


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## Cedars (13 April 2012)

Apparently the dog likes the cold..


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## Lizzie :) (13 April 2012)

yes i am a friend of hers and i can tell you that the crate that amber and her puppies are in is HUGE! they have plenty of room in there and i know that the puppies will be EXTREMELY well looked after!


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## Vizslak (13 April 2012)

the size of the crate is not the issue!


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## Dobiegirl (13 April 2012)

But the crate is outside, its freezing here and the wind,hail and rain will be blowing in, dont tell me Lizzie you think this is acceptable for week old pups being kept like this.


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## Sandstone1 (13 April 2012)

Lizzie :) said:



			Wow. i am totally shocked by some of the comments on this thread!! all Eriskayowner wanted was some advice but all she got was some horrible remarks!!  people could have been a bit kinder!!!
		
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Not as shocked as I am that someone thinks its ok to keep a bitch and new born pups like that. It was below freezing this morning.


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## Lizzie :) (13 April 2012)

well what is your problem then?!! yes, the puppies are outside but their crate is very well insulated  all the puppies are healthy- surely thats the only thing that matters??!


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## Eriskayowner (13 April 2012)

Vizslak said:



			friend of hers are you Lizzie? Have you seen the pictures of the bitch and pups?! Eriskayowner has not asked for advice, all she has done is ignore the advice given to her.
		
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Yes, Lizzie is a friend (and ex-student) of mine. I have not ignored the advice given to me. I have not read all of the posts on here because I do not feel that they are actually helpful.

The pups are still outside but it's WARM. Amber does not like being hot. If the house is more than about 15 degrees she will lie on the cold tiles downstairs anyway - she is happier outside than inside, and always has been. The puppies are in a WELL INSULATED pen, and are very warm and comfortable. 

I have had many people looking at the puppies over the last week or so, and not one of them has raised concerns about how/where we are keeping them, and many of them (including the owners of the sire) has had litters of puppies before. We were actually recommended by a friend who has bred a few litters than keeping them outside (as she knows Amber) would be better for her and the pups.

I am grateful to all those people who have volunteered advice. I am also grateful to those who are concerned and have pointed out where we could make improvements. However, I know my dog and I know how she prefers to be kept.


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## MurphysMinder (13 April 2012)

Lizzie, from the pictures the crate is not "well insulated" it has a few horse rugs thrown over it, neither is it huge!  Pups need heat for the first 2 weeks of their life, that is a fact, whether the bitch likes it cold or not.
Eriskayowner has been offered advice and has clearly chosen not to take it,  just as she seems not to have done any research before her bitch whelped.  You say the pups are healthy, and I really hope they are, but quite a way back in this thread a couple of us queried the weights of the pups as they seemed quite low, can you reassure us that they have substantially increased their weight now .


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## Eriskayowner (13 April 2012)

itsmylife said:



			Not as shocked as I am that someone thinks its ok to keep a bitch and new born pups like that. It was below freezing this morning.
		
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It has not been below freezing here for weeks and weeks. I do not know what part of the country you are in, but it's not that cold here. I have spent all day in a t-shirt, and got too hot mucking out in that.


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## Vizslak (13 April 2012)

Please could you explain....because this has had me puzzled for days....how exactly a wire crate is insulated?! I am geniunely curious as to how it is possible to keep animals outside in a wire crate warm and dry.
Emma, it is not the bitch we are concerned about, new born pups should be kept much warmer than current weather conditions. Unless just down the road from me you have your own micro climate it is anything but warm, the last few nights have warranted the fires being lit here in the house, that isnt warm!


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## MurphysMinder (13 April 2012)

Notwithstanding the pups environment, because I give up on that one, it really is not advisable to have many people looking at the pups in the first couple of weeks of life, you should keep visitors to the absolute minimum both to avoid stressing the bitch, and to reduce the risk of infection.
Whilst you are online, I did ask earlier but you maybe missed the question, what are the hip scores of the sire and dam?


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## ester (13 April 2012)

It would surprise me if that were the case, we have had a frost/I had to scrape the ice off my car in the last ten days (because I was concerned about Frank on the grass)

the forecast at mine tomorrow night is 2C and am only 20 miles away.


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## Bosworth (13 April 2012)

Not sure how it can not have been below freezing last night in Wellington, i am further south in devon and it certainly froze down here last night. and the forecast for this weekend is not warm. My horses are wearing rugs, my dogs are wearing waterproofs. so i cannot see how those puppies are comfortable.


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## Cedars (13 April 2012)

OP-I have a heat reflecting mat, would you like me to post it to you? Even if Amber likes being outside, the puppies will not-this might help them? I'm happy to lend it to you? Xx


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## ester (13 April 2012)

eta, my nearest weather station recorded 2.5C at 1am this morning.


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## Dobiegirl (13 April 2012)

My sister in law lives the Taunton side of Bridgwater and having spoken to her at lunch time she informed me that they had a heavy rainstorm there and it was freezing.That must be only 5 or 6 miles from you so how are you stopping the driving rain getting into Ambers crate.


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## Lizzie :) (13 April 2012)

it is NOT freezing in wellington!!!!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2634575


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## Vizslak (13 April 2012)

lows of 3 degrees celsius....thats a far cry from the 21 degrees minimum draft free that the pups should be in isnt it!


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## Vizslak (13 April 2012)

at 4am this morning the temp dropped low...I know this because Flora was crying to come and get in my bed! The puppies had all congregated on the heat mat and left no heat for her.....this is IN A HOUSE!


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## Lizzie :) (13 April 2012)

well im sorry for sticking up for a friend!


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## Sandstone1 (13 April 2012)

That crate is designed for indoor use. It is NOT made to be used outside. Throwing a old horse rug on it does not mean its ok to use it  outside for new pups. Im considering contacting wellington school about this to see how they feel about animals being kept in such poor conditions on their property.


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## Dobiegirl (13 April 2012)

But being outside if Amber cried or one of the puppies cried because it was being squashed the op wouldnt hear it.


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## Cedars (13 April 2012)

I'll join you, itsmylife.


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## Dobiegirl (13 April 2012)

Lizzie :) said:



			well im sorry for sticking up for a friend!  

Click to expand...

Why cant you stick up for these puppies and be a real friend to the op and talk some sense into her. This is a welfare issue no doubt about it.


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## Vizslak (13 April 2012)

Lizzie :) said:



			well im sorry for sticking up for a friend!  

Click to expand...

If I had a friend keeping mum and pups in this mannar I wouldnt be sticking up for them....I'd like to think I can choose my friends better than that in the first place though. The OP appears to me to be completely unhinged.


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## Cedars (13 April 2012)

Lizzie, you should only stick up for a friend if what they are doing is right. This is not right, not one bit. You need to be helping your friend listen to advice and get the puppies inside. X


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## Lizzie :) (13 April 2012)

i give up. you guys can say what you want. i know that those puppies are all healthy and will be very well looked after.


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## Native Speaker (13 April 2012)

Awful thhought, I know, but what will it take before OP sees sense?  The death of one or more pups due to hypothermia, perhaps? 

It dosen't bear thinking about.

Get those puppies indoor now, before something dreadful happens.


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## millimoo (13 April 2012)

God this is awful... Lizzie, I respect you defending your friend, but if she didn't have suitable facilities she should never have bred them.
I cannot fathom how on earth you or your friend think this is acceptable. 
I agree some of the earlier posts were out of order, but your friend has proved these negative posters right by her lack of action, and what is now a very clear lack of homework when it comes to breeding a litter.
Cedar has made a very generous offer, and your friend must understand that emotions are running high because she is putting the welfare of these lovely puppies at very obvious risk, by what appears to now be stubborn ignorance.
I hope she will eventually concede that maybe the conditions are not ideal, think of the welfare of he pups and take steps to get them inside.


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## Moomin1 (13 April 2012)

Can't be bothered reading through all the posts - how old are the pups now?


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## Jake10 (13 April 2012)

I know this info is probably a bit late/ don't know if you've already seen it during your extensive pre-breeding research and prep but thought it might be useful 

http://www.chelsea-collies.com/newborn.html


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## ChesnutsRoasting (13 April 2012)

I've known plenty of pups born outside. In solid buildings with heat lamps and plenty of room for mum to move about. I really believe that if anyone personally knows where mum and pups are they have a moral duty to report the conditions they are kept in to a relevant authority. If I had a friend keeping mum and pups in these conditions and she ignored any advice, I'd report her. If anyone knows the school where these pups are, pm me and I'll do it.


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## Sandstone1 (13 April 2012)

blazingsaddles said:



			I've known plenty of pups born outside. In solid buildings with heat lamps and plenty of room for mum to move about. I really believe that if anyone personally knows where mum and pups are they have a moral duty to report the conditions they are kept in to a relevant authority. If I had a friend keeping mum and pups in these conditions and she ignored any advice, I'd report her. If anyone knows the school where these pups are, pm me and I'll do it.
		
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I agree, I dont personally know the op or her address but from other posts have seen she lives at wellington school. Im very close to trying to contact the school about this as its a welfare issue.


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## Cedars (13 April 2012)

Itsmylife, PM Vizsla x


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## Sandstone1 (13 April 2012)

Yes, have done thanks


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## Dobiegirl (13 April 2012)

Lizzie if these puppies are doing so well why hasnt the op told us their birth weights and what they weigh now, an up to date photo would be nice as well.


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## Chestnuttymare (13 April 2012)

OP, I know you are hurt and upset at the comments but can you please take the advice from experienced people who have bred litters and just take the crate inside. I am really concerned that the pups will be cold, mum will cope with the extra heat, she is a house dog anyway so I am sure she won't mind it too much. The pups do need to be kept warm, there is no way they can be warm being kept outside in a wire crate, regardless of how many rugs you have over it. Also please don't have people coming to see her, it is not worth the risk of infection. They are really fragile at that age. Please put aside your feelings here and bring the pups in.


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## Eriskayowner (13 April 2012)

chestnuttymare said:



			OP, I know you are hurt and upset at the comments but can you please take the advice from experienced people who have bred litters and just take the crate inside. I am really concerned that the pups will be cold, mum will cope with the extra heat, she is a house dog anyway so I am sure she won't mind it too much. The pups do need to be kept warm, there is no way they can be warm being kept outside in a wire crate, regardless of how many rugs you have over it. Also please don't have people coming to see her, it is not worth the risk of infection. They are really fragile at that age. Please put aside your feelings here and bring the pups in.
		
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Again, I am grateful for the comments and the advice. If I was worried they were cold at night then they would be in. I've spoken to OH and he said tomorrow night is supposed to be a bit colder - they are coming in for the night then. They can have the dog bed in the sitting room if it does get colder tomorrow night.


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## Dobiegirl (13 April 2012)

Tell me are you sleeping with your bedroom window open at night so you can hear if the puppies need you or will that leave you feeling too cold.


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## ladyt25 (13 April 2012)

Right, before i say anything I will start with, this is not how I would keep puppies if I ever bred any.
I do not know the OP and in fact am not on either 'side' here.

What I do think though is that maybe some people are being a little OTT here when they haven't actually seen the living conditions or the puppies.

Also, what happened before the days of heating or indeed before dogs were in house or kept as pets? Where did they have puppies then? If the bitch has freedom (and presumably she does) would she not move the puppies if she felt they needed moving?

Other baby animals (lambs, calves, rabbits, foxes etc) survive being born in cold temparatures don't they? I know puppies are very vulnerable when born but isn't being born outside as nature intended anyway?

As I said, personally I would probablt have them inside unless the bitch was very unhappy with this - I guess then maybe I'd put her in a shed or garage but it'll still be chilly, you'd just cut out the wind/driving rain. 

My car is parked between mine and the next house, it can get cold at night but I do not get ice on my car so it is possible to be outside but yet stay relatively warm (above freezing).

I am not condoning the way of keeping these puppies but I am just thinking out loud I guess and how animals breed and survive in the 'wild'.


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## rhino (13 April 2012)

ladyt25 said:



			I am not condoning the way of keeping these puppies but I am just thinking out loud I guess and how animals breed and survive in the 'wild'.
		
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I think anyone with domestic animals would seek to improve on the survival rates found in the wild... As domestic dogs are so different from their wild counterparts surely they are less well adapted to survival in cold temperatures anyway?

And better they 'thrive' than 'survive'


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## MurphysMinder (13 April 2012)

Well you could also argue that women used to squat and give birth outside, but dont think you would see any pregnant woment opting for that nowadays.
I was waiting for someone to bring this up to be honest ladyt25 and you are of course right.  Years ago we were involved in the rescue of a gsd bitch who had whelped a litter of pups in a fox earth, all pups were fine.  However this was summer months, and an earth underground was I would imagine far more "insulated" than a cage with a rug thrown over it.  
In my opinion if someone chooses to breed from their dog they should then do everything in their power to provide the best possible environment to raise the ensuing pups.


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## Dobiegirl (13 April 2012)

I agree absolutely MM spot on, I wonder if the op is going to vaccinate and chip her puppies thats if any survive that is.


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## Cedars (13 April 2012)

How are you keeping an ear out for the puppies? When Bracken was born his breeder slept by the crate for the first 3 weeks


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## SusieT (13 April 2012)

in the wild a bitch makes a nest. So has an option to leave when neccessary, makes a nest big enough for her and pups. And makes it somewhere that doesn't have an open front! How come yuor inside dog slept inside until she has pups? I can only think that you don't want the mess inside in which case why did you breed?


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## SusieT (13 April 2012)

Can I ask why so many people are saying they are 'about' the contact the school or welfare authorities but not actually bothering to do so? There is pictorial evidence, the op is evident as to who they are...


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## ladyt25 (13 April 2012)

MurphysMinder said:



			Well you could also argue that women used to squat and give birth outside, but dont think you would see any pregnant woment opting for that nowadays.
I was waiting for someone to bring this up to be honest ladyt25 and you are of course right.  Years ago we were involved in the rescue of a gsd bitch who had whelped a litter of pups in a fox earth, all pups were fine.  However this was summer months, and an earth underground was I would imagine far more "insulated" than a cage with a rug thrown over it.  
In my opinion if someone chooses to breed from their dog they should then do everything in their power to provide the best possible environment to raise the ensuing pups.
		
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Of course the survival rate could be compromised yes so, as said if you wanted to ensure the survival of the puppies then you would try do all you can. What would happen though if the bitch herself moved her puppies from inside the warm house to an area she chose outside? Could that happen?

I am just thinking I guess, my rescue (I think I must have chosen a dog like myself), she loves the heat - sleeps for ages far too close to the fire for my liking. Our GSD x though prefers to be cold and loves when it rains or snows so she can lie/roll in it. i guess they are all different and maybe the OP is struggling to keep the bitch happy and comfortable and she is the priority and it has been assumed the bitch can provide all to the pups. If thiis were me and the mother really did not want to be inside then i guess I'd probably fix up my electric blanket so it half covered the bottom of the crate, move the crate to a covered yard area or shed / garage ad thus be keeping the pups at a constant temperature but yet allowing mum to keep cool.

OP - how have the pups done so far? They were born almost 2 weeks ago now weren't they?


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## Vizslak (13 April 2012)

The standard way of setting up a whelping area ladyt is to have heat on no more than half the whelping box so that the bitch can sit at a temperature comfortable to her whilst the puppies are still warm enough. You can use a heat mat or a heat lamp to achieve this. If you had a bitch that as you suggest preferred the cold, I would put her in a garage or shed with a heat lamp warming half of the box for the pups whilst mum could sit out of it if she chose to.


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## Chestnuttymare (13 April 2012)

Don't think an electric blanket is a great option,  if they wee'd on it she would have crispy fried cross breeds would she not. 
I don't think this is going to go any further though, the op has made up her mind to do what she sees as the correct thing and nothing is going to budge her. 

I really hope the pups and mum are ok.


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## JFTDWS (13 April 2012)

Whilst this thread is rather disturbing, I just want to say that this sort of offer is surely the best side of HHO - while the OP deserves the negative comments, an offer of something constructive strikes me as being startlingly helpful. 



Cedars said:



			OP-I have a heat reflecting mat, would you like me to post it to you? Even if Amber likes being outside, the puppies will not-this might help them? I'm happy to lend it to you? Xx
		
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Just a thought.


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## ladyt25 (13 April 2012)

chestnuttymare said:



			Don't think an electric blanket is a great option,  if they wee'd on it she would have crispy fried cross breeds would she not. 
I don't think this is going to go any further though, the op has made up her mind to do what she sees as the correct thing and nothing is going to budge her. 

I really hope the pups and mum are ok.
		
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Ha ha - actually, a modern electric blanket would not do this and actually, in my mind would be quite good as (if anything like the one I have) you can set at a constant temperature. You could actually put a plastic cover and a blanket on if needs be but a bit of puppy wee would not affect an electric blanket to the degree it would electrocute anything!


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## MurphysMinder (13 April 2012)

The heat pads that vizslak mentioned are the same principle as an electric blanket but they are vinyl, and then have a soft cover and the cable is insulated.   They are only around £30 to buy, but in the OPs situation I imagine an extension cable would have to be run out to the crate, which would maybe not be the best idea if it rains.
OP I am delighted to hear you are considering bringing Amber and the pups inside, please do so, and keep them in until the pups are fully active.  Apart from anything else you will miss so much if the pups are shut outside, if they are in the house with you I guarantee they will keep you constantly amused.


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## Amymay (13 April 2012)

As long as the puppies are being kept at a constant 22 degrees then I guess all OS ok.

Are they OP??


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## Chestnuttymare (13 April 2012)

ladyt25 said:



			Ha ha - actually, a modern electric blanket would not do this and actually, in my mind would be quite good as (if anything like the one I have) you can set at a constant temperature. You could actually put a plastic cover and a blanket on if needs be but a bit of puppy wee would not affect an electric blanket to the degree it would electrocute anything!
		
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lol I did wonder. I haven't used one for years. I thought that in these modern times it would be sorted out.


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## Chrissy4221 (13 April 2012)

This makes me pretty mad. I'm not a breeder but I would never think of having any of my "house dogs" stay outside like this, especially if pups were involved. If dog is too warm, we simply make the house a little cooler for them and do anything to make them more comfortable. Id never throw them outside in a cage like that to fight the elements AND try to keep pups warm!


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## Sandstone1 (14 April 2012)

I just cant see why you would want to keep them outside! You knew they were on the way so why didnt you make proper plans for them?
If you didnt want them in the house  you could have sorted a garage or shed with some sort of heating avalible.

trying to keep them in a indoor crate outside is cruel.
What are you going to do when they start moving around more and their eyes open?

Im so angry about this.


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## Eriskayowner (14 April 2012)

Pups are inside for now - they'll be in tonight as forecast to be colder. Amber is spending lots of time downstairs on the tiles as it's cooler but the pups are happily sleeping and feeding.


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## Cedars (14 April 2012)

WELL DONE!!  great news


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## Eriskayowner (14 April 2012)

They're not in permenently Cedars. 

Amber is not all that comfortable being in, but I'm happier that the puppies are in with it being colder outside.


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## springtime13 (14 April 2012)

Could you fit a dog door so that Amber could come and go as she pleases? That way the pups and mum would have their needs catered to  The pups look really big now, I can't imagine them all squashed in the crate together - it's so much nicer to see them inside and cosy.


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## Sandstone1 (14 April 2012)

Im glad they are in at last. I can only see six. What happened to the other one?


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## ChesnutsRoasting (14 April 2012)

Eriskayowner said:



			Pups are inside for now - they'll be in tonight as forecast to be colder. Amber is spending lots of time downstairs on the tiles as it's cooler but the pups are happily sleeping and feeding.






Click to expand...

I'm not going to praise you for bringing them in. (you've done it reluctantly and under pressure) You've gone to no effort creating a comfortable whelping box. Dumped a couple of blankets down and is that a numnah peering out from below? Your idea of padding I suppose. You don't deserve to have a sweet dog like her who whelped with no problems. You don't realise how grateful you should be. Your whole attitude stinks and I don't believe the dog overheats, in fact I don't believe a word you say. Your husband doesn't want them in the house fullstop. Grow some balls. I know who would be sleeping outside and it wouldn't be a first time mum and her pups.

ETA If that's where the pups are sleeping tonight, unplug and get the electrical cords out of the way.


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## echoncarrie (14 April 2012)

Blazingsaddles - got it spot on!


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## Sandstone1 (14 April 2012)

Blazingsaddles, I agree 100%. Is it just me or are there only six pups?


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## Dobiegirl (14 April 2012)

Thank goodness you have seen sense and its lovely to see your bitch able to move around rather than stuck in a cage. Why dont you make up a whelping box and then if your bitch gets too hot she can get up and move.

Please rethink your plans on moving her outside again because then it becomes a welfare issue.

Im also worried I can only see 6 pups, perhaps the op will enlighten us.


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## ChesnutsRoasting (14 April 2012)

itsmylife said:



			Blazingsaddles, I agree 100%. Is it just me or are there only six pups?
		
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Yes, I can only see six. Could be another one stuck under mum somewhere, squealing it's head off, who knows?  I await Eriskayowners reply (sorry, excuse, for that one).


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## Lizzie :) (14 April 2012)

there are definitely 7 puppies:


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## Katikins (14 April 2012)

I've just sat and read through this entire thread and am truly horrified that anyone thinks that is an acceptable way to keep pups!  Also, if they aren't inside permanently, then are they ALL going back out into that crate?  As the size they are now surely they would have to sit on top of each other to fit!!  And those cables scare the bejeezus out of me.  On another forum I read a story about lady who left her, admittedly older, 15 week old pup in the kitchen (only for 30 mins so didn't bother with the crate) while she walked the other dogs and came back to find her puppy had hung itself on a curtain drawstring!!  It only takes a tiny amount of time for puppies to get into something dangerous.

Makes me all the more grateful that Freya had such a wonderful start to life with a responsible breeder!


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## ChesnutsRoasting (14 April 2012)

Lizzie :) said:



			there are definitely 7 puppies:





Click to expand...

If you are a friend, Lizzie, then seriously, talk some sense into Eriskayowner, buy her a book on breeding/caring for newborn pups and anaesthetise her husband for the next six weeks. This situation is beyond a joke. I am, perhaps, naively assuming, as teachers, they have a degree of intelligence but there is no accounting for a reluctance to learn.


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## Cedars (14 April 2012)

How have we all decided its the husband who's against them being inside? Did I miss something?


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## ChesnutsRoasting (14 April 2012)

Cedars said:



			How have we all decided its the husband who's against them being inside? Did I miss something?
		
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Husband, Obama, God, I couldn't give a monkeys. If they all objected to a mum and pups being kept in warm and comfortable conditions, they would all be chucked outside without breakfast, lunch and tea.


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## Amymay (14 April 2012)

At last. Well done, make it permanent.


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## Amymay (14 April 2012)

Remember puss need to be at a constant 22 degrees.


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## SusieT (14 April 2012)

good. How is amber not comfortable being in? You said in your first dfew posts you 'moved her outside' so surely she has been comfortable inside up til now..


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## Dobiegirl (14 April 2012)

Good point SusieT.


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## Cinnamontoast (14 April 2012)

You also said Amber will lie on the tiles if too hot. That does not equate to being confined in an indoor cage outside. 

The pups need to be at a constant temp, they cannot regulate themselves and mum's body warmth will not keep 7 chunky pups warm. 

The dam needs to be allowed freedom to leave the ops somewhere warm and safe and the pups need to be reared inside with human interaction so as to be socialised for their new owners. 

I can't work out if you are attention seeking by saying that you'll move her outside again when it's warmer: you know we'll all say how terrible that is and you've had several people threaten you with the RSPCA. Bit stupid to be proud and do what you want as opposed to what is best for the dogs and to risk having them taken off you.


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## PucciNPoni (15 April 2012)

Has it occured to anyone else that perhaps due to lack of homes for all puppies that the OP is hoping that natural selection will weed out some of the weaker specimen?


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## Jake10 (15 April 2012)

PucciNPoni said:



			Has it occured to anyone else that perhaps due to lack of homes for all puppies that the OP is hoping that natural selection will weed out some of the weaker specimen?
		
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*sticks fingers in ears* I refuse to believe anyone with an ounce of sense/any morals would do that.


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## Suzie86 (15 April 2012)

I don't think that's a fair thing to say PNP!!!!


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## PucciNPoni (15 April 2012)

Suzie86 said:



			I don't think that's a fair thing to say PNP!!!!
		
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No, perhaps not - but I'm just feeling a bit cynical today


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## EAST KENT (15 April 2012)

The worst thing about that dreadful crate plus plastic bed affair was that puppies wriggle and wander,at any time one or more could have gone over the edge of that unsuitable bed and got chilled enough to die..NO the bitch will not get it back,for some reason they rarely do.If she MUST be outside may I make an old fashioned suggestion?Using straw bales build a two bale high area,about two bales long by one ot two  bales deep.The front could be just one bale high so Amber can come and go as needed.Fill the floor area deeply with either straw or hay,with a dip in the middle for the brood..perhaps a groundsheet under that filling.Put a sheet of something..corrugated iron(?) over the top..and pile straw bales on top of that.Over the front gap you can hang a thick blanket ,just a corner slightly ajar;I promise you those puppies will then have a cheap and very effective outdoor whelping area that will generate a toasty warm interior. It won`t cost you much,it looks comfy and your bitch and puppies will thrive..by the way ,at two weeks (now) they should start to be fed INDIVIDUALLY with a handheld ball of best beef mince..human grade.Now,you asked advice,you`ve got away with it so far,not asking for the Moon here..just get on and use these adequate if old fashioned and cheap methods.


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## gunnergundog (15 April 2012)

EAST KENT said:



			The worst thing about that dreadful crate plus plastic bed affair was that puppies wriggle and wander,at any time one or more could have gone over the edge of that unsuitable bed and got chilled enough to die..NO the bitch will not get it back,for some reason they rarely do.If she MUST be outside may I make an old fashioned suggestion?Using straw bales build a two bale high area,about two bales long by one ot two  bales deep.The front could be just one bale high so Amber can come and go as needed.Fill the floor area deeply with either straw or hay,with a dip in the middle for the brood..perhaps a groundsheet under that filling.Put a sheet of something..corrugated iron(?) over the top..and pile straw bales on top of that.Over the front gap you can hang a thick blanket ,just a corner slightly ajar;I promise you those puppies will then have a cheap and very effective outdoor whelping area that will generate a toasty warm interior. It won`t cost you much,it looks comfy and your bitch and puppies will thrive..by the way ,at two weeks (now) they should start to be fed INDIVIDUALLY with a handheld ball of best beef mince..human grade.Now,you asked advice,you`ve got away with it so far,not asking for the Moon here..just get on and use these adequate if old fashioned and cheap methods.

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And use some broom handles to act as pig rails so's the pups don't get squashed/killed.


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## EAST KENT (16 April 2012)

gunnergundog said:



			And use some broom handles to act as pig rails so's the pups don't get squashed/killed.
		
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  Honestly not needed cos the straw/hay banks up `round the edges acting as a buffer. It is a natural effective and very cheap way of keeping mum and babes toasty warm and comfy.


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## Sandstone1 (17 April 2012)

I hope pups and mum are ok and still inside


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## Cedars (19 April 2012)

Any news?


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## NOISYGIRL (19 April 2012)

There ARE ways of saying things.  I have to agree though, there are enough unwanted crossbreeds in the country that need homes without breeding more.  

I know yours have homes to go to, but if you were thinking of breeding anyway but not now, maybe you should have found all this out in preparation, but if it was an accident, I appreciate you might not have had time, but why were these dogs allowed together, knowing the birds and the bees and all that ??


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## Vizslak (19 April 2012)

read the whole thread NG  
I am pleased to see the pups inside, I hope they remain that way, I apologise for not replying at the weekend when pics were posted, I had issues with my own litter. They all look to be big chunky pups and doing well.


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## NOISYGIRL (19 April 2012)

Lizzie :) said:



			yes i am a friend of hers and i can tell you that the crate that amber and her puppies are in is HUGE! they have plenty of room in there and i know that the puppies will be EXTREMELY well looked after! 

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Sorry you are blinded by your friendship, the crate is quite big but the blue bed !?! its big enough for a jack russel, my springer has a bed 3 times as big as that for herself ! It is OUTSIDE with a few rugs chucked over it ? is that the insulation ? poor poor bitch and pups

So presume the bitch has to stumble her way in and out of that thing she is living in ?? disgusting. 

I can't say anymore I'd probably be banned


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## NOISYGIRL (19 April 2012)

MurphysMinder said:



			The heat pads that vizslak mentioned are the same principle as an electric blanket but they are vinyl, and then have a soft cover and the cable is insulated.   They are only around £30 to buy, but in the OPs situation I imagine an extension cable would have to be run out to the crate, which would maybe not be the best idea if it rains.
OP I am delighted to hear you are considering bringing Amber and the pups inside, please do so, and keep them in until the pups are fully active.  Apart from anything else you will miss so much if the pups are shut outside, if they are in the house with you I guarantee they will keep you constantly amused.
		
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Its only for the night MM if it gets colder :-(


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## Amymay (19 April 2012)

NOISYGIRL said:



			Its only for the night MM if it gets colder :-(
		
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I think you're a little behind Noisygirl.  Bitch and pups are now inside, and there is no indication that they have been moved back out, or are going to be.

I think we can probably all put our minds at rest.


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## NOISYGIRL (19 April 2012)

amymay said:



			Remember puss need to be at a constant 22 degrees.
		
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That'll be achieved by the in one night out the other rotation ?


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## Cedars (19 April 2012)

Noisygirl, for goodness sake, read the whole thread!


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## NOISYGIRL (19 April 2012)

Vizslak said:



			read the whole thread NG  
I am pleased to see the pups inside, I hope they remain that way, I apologise for not replying at the weekend when pics were posted, I had issues with my own litter. They all look to be big chunky pups and doing well.
		
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I have now, soz, realised after reading on


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## NOISYGIRL (19 April 2012)

Cedars said:



			Noisygirl, for goodness sake, read the whole thread!
		
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OK SORRY will do next time jeez, and I'll learn how to multiquote and everything


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## SusieT (19 April 2012)

OP is feeling a bit stupid now as welfare authorities have visited a confirmed the outside accomodation was not suitable..


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## ChesnutsRoasting (19 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			OP is feeling a bit stupid now as welfare authorities have visited a confirmed the outside accomodation was not suitable..
		
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Have you corresponded with the OP?


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## Cinnamontoast (19 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			OP is feeling a bit stupid now as welfare authorities have visited a confirmed the outside accomodation was not suitable..
		
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Have they? Can I ask how you know?


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## Cinnamontoast (19 April 2012)

NOISYGIRL said:



			OK SORRY will do next time jeez, and I'll learn how to multiquote and everything
		
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Press the little square bottom right with '' in the corner. It will go orange but won't take you to a reply box until you click reply. You can click as many boxes as you like to multi quote as many posts as you like. (Hope you weren't being sarcastic! )


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## SusieT (19 April 2012)

lets just say several complaints were made and followed up,


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## galaxy (19 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			lets just say several complaints were made and followed up,
		
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thank goodness!


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## Sandstone1 (19 April 2012)

Shame the op has not been back to let us know how the pups and mum are.
I  really hope shes now seen sense and is looking after the pups properly at last.


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## quirky (19 April 2012)

SusieT said:



			lets just say several complaints were made and followed up,
		
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Wow .

Well if things weren't right, then I guess the complaints were justified.
I hope, for the pups sake, that the advice given is acted upon.


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## NOISYGIRL (20 April 2012)

cinnamontoast said:



			Press the little square bottom right with '' in the corner. It will go orange but won't take you to a reply box until you click reply. You can click as many boxes as you like to multi quote as many posts as you like. (Hope you weren't being sarcastic! )
		
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No I wasn't being sarcastic, thanks


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## misterjinglejay (20 April 2012)

That's a relief - lets hope she listens to the 'official' advice.


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## Amymay (20 April 2012)

misterjay said:



			That's a relief - lets hope she listens to the 'official' advice.
		
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Well if she doesn't she'll loose her animals - so I'm sure she will.


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## Sandstone1 (20 April 2012)

Lets hope the wellfare organisations involved keep a close eye on her.


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## Moomin1 (20 April 2012)

itsmylife said:



			Lets hope the wellfare organisations involved keep a close eye on her.
		
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Unless more complaints are made then they can't keep an eye on it - that is classed as harrassment.

It will be down to the general public to keep an eye and report should the situation deteriorate again.


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## Sandstone1 (20 April 2012)

Really? How do they check up on whats happening then? surely they need to be able to follow up on cases to make sure the advice has been taken.


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## Amymay (20 April 2012)

itsmylife said:



			Really? How do they check up on whats happening then? surely they need to be able to follow up on cases to make sure the advice has been taken.
		
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They do.  It's called monitoring.


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## Sandstone1 (20 April 2012)

amymay said:



			They do.  It's called monitoring.
		
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Yes thats what I thought. Cant seehow it would work otherwise.


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## Moomin1 (20 April 2012)

itsmylife said:



			Really? How do they check up on whats happening then? surely they need to be able to follow up on cases to make sure the advice has been taken.
		
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It depends on the severity of the situation, the attitude of the owner, and what advice has been given.

For instance, if the welfare agency have been around in response to a complaint that the pups are outside, but are in fact inside when they get there, then it is very difficult for the agency to go back around without being classed as harrassing - because the fact that the pups were in at time of visit means that no particular offence is being committed at time of visit.  If however, more complaints are then made saying the pups have been chucked back outside -they have every means of going back around again.  If not - then there really isn't any reason in the eyes of the law that they should be going back around.

If the owner has been given a notice to make improvements on certain issues, then yes, there will be a time limit and the officer will attend on or near after that date to assess the conditions again.  If no improvements have been made then either action will be taken, or an extention on the time limit may be given depending on the circumstances (this is rare).  If the necessary improvements have been made then the officer has no means to be going back around again unless further complaints are made.  It would be classed as harrassment if they continued to knock on the door if no further complaints were made and the advice had been taken on last visit.

Not sure if I have put that clearly enough, I have conjunctivitis so can't see very clearly!!


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## Moomin1 (20 April 2012)

amymay said:



			They do.  It's called monitoring.
		
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Amymay read my last comment.


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## noodle_ (20 April 2012)

Having read the entire thread (my eyes are SO tired!)


My dog (age 5) and shes a spaniel x collie, last night slept IN MY BED....under!! the duvet!! she was SHIVERING inside, in her bed it was THAT cold....................

therefore i would never put any dog of mine with pups outside!!!!!

I wouldnt even put my house dog in that cage alone.....even in the day.....

Its just cruel (unless were taking insulated KENNELL) or dog shed etc NOT BARS




Personally, i hope you get the dogs taken off you OP and given to someone who gives a **** and knows what they are doing....



to leave a dog to whelp checking on them twice is stupid and irresponsible.... good breeders live with the pups for weeks after (literally)....


hope you have been reported and its not just any more lies/truth bending.







etc, to everyone else except OP - sorry about caps locks. #angry


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## ladyt25 (20 April 2012)

It's a shame the OP hasn't been back on to clarify things. I have to say I actually think the pics of the pups show them as being pretty healthy looking. They will be about 3 weeks old now won't they?

Not sure it necessarily needed to go as far as welfare organisations being involved to be honest as they do/did not look to be suffering but no, keeping them outside was not ideal given the weather we've been having.


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## Amymay (21 April 2012)

ladyt25 said:



			Not sure it necessarily needed to go as far as welfare organisations being involved to be honest as they do/did not look to be suffering but no, keeping them outside was not ideal given the weather we've been having.
		
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Who would you have suggested would have made OP listen then?  She certainly wasn't interested in any of the advice given by people on here?

The pups looked great - but were not being kept in a suitable or safe environment.  You can't always measure suffering by a couple of photos - but those with the experience know that the puppies may well not have survived if they'd continued to live outside - that is potential suffering, which all on this thread were keen to avoid.

OP won't be back on this thread, I'm sure.  She's been embarrassed and held to account.  She stated previously that she was keen to learn - but that appears not to have been true, until of course the welfare authorities stepped in.......


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